bnc_spoken.txt you might from the national on seventy five days she's eating a toffee as well! but out of the ninety mm. hard to talk ! he could be there he's got a note for fifteen cos he had flu for three weeks therefore he's attendance. absent. and sh excuse me but what i do not want happening on records of achievement as regards cos we are totally honest and i could name a school not too far from us where they're including things like that mhm. and they're attendance patterns look excellent! mhm. oh they yeah. do! and my concern is that our children are going to go into the er work place to try and you know establish their own it's a disadvantage, yeah. thing at an advantage because we're being it's true, we're being honest. totally honest. yet other areas aren't, that's true. you see something like a doctors appointment or a hospital appointment i think deserves and attendance because they're given er a dental card or yo you're shown it, you know, they've given to you to they're not classed as absent. are they not? no. they are as a rule. they are they are? if they go first thing in the morning. if, if they don't go first thing in the morning i've seen people write down absence all day or all morning. yeah, but we we're getting into the area there where form teachers are doing it as well, they are not absences! ah well! right. they are if the chap yes. doesn't come to school. if the child isn't in for the mark prior going to the doctors at ten o'clock they're absent even if they have a note. if they don't register their absence according to our system. mm. or they're late if they come in at ten o'clock. well at the end of the day ignoring those er slight tangents that's gonna be a horrendous job for all right. those writing that out! what i will do, two things we'll talk to sue dave that needs to be, to find out if we can, what's happening elsewhere cos she can through her colleagues and i will also i i don't think i'll ring margaret but i'll give terry a ring morden who's the record of achievement guy there and get on quite well with him just to find out what sort of tap they're taking on it cos er yeah, i i take very much what sandra's saying as don't want our youngsters to be disadvantaged in anyway if others are lies, damn lies and statistics bit! yeah. we'll go with it. sandra? before we move on because we're getting just a slight er er, a slight bogged down with attendance. it's a tangent it's just another thing to be aware of er that certain put their exam but it's along the same thing cos i know what's happening and they're not writing g c s e but they're writing exam entries so many pupils x number of subjects so many passes okay? and what they're including are unit acs and things like that. well, yeah right. but if and that's if they were attendance mm. is no better. no. , damn lies and statistics! yep. not playing that game at the moment. thank you for that beautiful information what i'll, it's your turn on . so the only thing i need to address is finding time to put curriculum statement in and we need to clarify that situation so you know why you're at and quite happy. yes, i'm quite happy i'm just building up with rob with the i a p's i was going to say that needs sort of tying in your okay with that? no problem. okay. remember there's a file on top on my filing cabinet where both trish worked out sort of simple lesson plans er, before we actually put them on oh they're going up, not use the computer now are we? we're not using the computer. but it's okay. a way of making them aware if you want them to start doing thinking of it, what was it, personal statements we did? personal development plans. right. sand ? right i have changed what i was going to do somewhat after yesterday's meeting erm i can i i put while i i think i shall ask you for a sheet with that sort of mhm. laid out so i can pull it all together. right. erm everyone that is. the year erm which was done last year myself, self assessment and that i've actually my form tutor to suggest it and they are reasonably positive, like sixty five percent to move into god ! damn positive, through those how how's sixty ! how do you work sixty five percent out when you've got four of them, this is interesting! it's a majority you said seventy five? isn't it? mm. i've got two two and a bit. one will be with me one will come with me cos they're always doing things wrong and then shout at them! and the other two will do the marginal bit. right. oh dear dear! so that's the reasonable. so which one of them do you want the er advisor to go in with? fifteen love! oh dear! so we've i know which one i'm gonna put in ! mhm. oh yeah,! i'll be mhm. isn't it a shame dick 's left! i know ! he hasn't! has he? has he? no no no. not really not in my year group. right! getting back to this they're starting, the first two weeks i've for timetables, administration etcetera that's the which was agreed whenever. one week i thought we agreed, but never mind! i hadn't amended that bit but i'll amend it and sta and write up proper. i've asked them as well and this might take them into the second week er to start with their pupils process on a wednesday morning whereby in each classroom there would be a me master year plan even if it means they have to buy four and divide it up but i su i suggest that i would do something, you know, produce one and on that they will write pertinent to the the form to the form er and continue to add on that over, you know as and when it's relevant er, dates for completion of course work, it might be module testing etcetera and i'm going to ask at briefing that any anything that a teacher has put down for children, it might be just you know mi mr x's group is mentioned at briefing so they can write down what's pertinent to them and therefore good idea! the teacher acts as a conscience i i explained to them i'm not expecting them to make the child do the work, but to be their conscience so they can say look you've got three assessments coming in that week if you leave it till friday night you're up the creak without a paddle! so they're going to be the conscience and the parenting for that year group and i also suggested that at that time, i think what rob's doing is getting the children to look at themselves er, as regards what their strengths and weaknesses are and the p s d have got to clarify that. i wanted them to ste start doing a self assessment on the child about their strengths and weaknesses leading o , into the i a p right and coming through with that what they would like to achieve in where they'd like to go two years hence. part of that would be that they identify that that's, i'm going there two years hence that's the pathway and it's too late to wait until next january a year from january and suddenly realise they need six g c s e's, a, b, c when they've lost half their grades on the course work to date. so really i need to firm up with them, i've dropped the seeds in to firm up the process and they're going to work through that with the kids at the same time talking about what a record of achievement is, showing them what goes inside it, the importance of it etcetera. and compact i would like to think that when we've looked at the kids and what's required in the i a p that we can have an industry day with them i'm trying, i'm suggesting er, in january. right. but i need clari clarification from the boss . so are you talking, you're saying to me that's a full term's work? i'm looking to be pushing because i, i i might ask them to get speakers in etcetera. i don't really know where i, or i know where i'm going but i have to take the troops with me i had er, i got you see what is parts of a i a p compact certificate it might in fact, if the boss would let me do, if i could do an industry in december right? what i'd like to do is have an industry day then and then a parent's invitation to see what the kids had done and a quick feedback. but an industry in december is december. you're talking about ah, a lot of weeks in between and my concern i'm not talking a lot of weeks in between i'm talking erm eleven. i class that as a lot of weeks for the likes of oh we're not going to names, to to occupy the borderline children i'm ta , i'm talking elev yeah. eleven hours! we're on the same side and you know and i know that some of the troops are gonna find that, i, my opinion is that some of the troops will find that hard going for eleven weeks unless they know exactly what the hell they're supposed to be doing in well whatever it, i would like to do after this, my discussion with them on thursday i may bring it down i don't know what way, what they're going to throw in cos i won't be okay. able to take , i've never done an industry day right. with the form teacher and yo and you know that has to be fairly fluid to let i incorporate their ideas erm but i would then put out, you know, week seven er, you know review what er, a record of achievement is it might be what can write try your personal statement about yourself. okay. but we'll have statement, but you know, do that practice bit. the only thing that occurs to me er er and now yo your veteran day from last year a a does any of that, how does you know, cos he does it, how does any of that sit with rob or do we just say right well we do cos well when i've asked rob you didn't! i asked had a very heated discussion erm where i si wanting to be having the careers teachers in and working with the forms etcetera and doing it, the er job wise and he wouldn't entertain at all mhm. in year ten! right. that's why i'm left back now trying to do something without doing job wise, i'm just hoping that these children on the p s d group. but er, you know, as i say i know what you're saying i won't say to him i want that done over eleven weeks, i'll say this is what we're gonna do week by week. you, you know how i feel, i mean er rob does a lot of good work but he keeps it all to himself and we've gotta be bigger than keeping it to ourselves, it's everybody's responsibility vocational education from right down from year seven right the way across the board, they've gotta mm. be aware of what's going on in the world in terms of not just employment but further o opportunities. mm. and it worries me still that we, we ain't shifting him enough er mhm. there's the cat ! i think that's why we've there's cats as well here! the bone beca because it was focus ma my concern dave was wanting to know that we've got something tied up mm. right. five year programme. a five year programme. something tied up, something in there as a heading so every member of staff knows that at such and such a time they are working on a heading of environmental awareness i would like us to have a precis of what that's gonna involve but, i shan't worry if we haven't got that we've moved on a step aha. from last year fair enough. every year i'm looking for it to move forward a little bit. well, what i'm suggesting doing is thi it, what are my outcomes from this? that the form tutor shou , is going to be a conscience and really what we call a form tutor's job is going to you know, talk to the children aha. review with them where they're at, record how they're doing, you know tra , i mean i can't tell them to do that, but actually ask them to spend five or ten minutes each session talking to different pupils and what they've been doing and you know even if it's a personal timetable some people won't get into it but it's you know, trying to get them to be what are tutors are, you know, i'd like them to do. so that's the first outcome. the second outcome is that all children would be aware of what's involved in the record of achievement. right. thirdly, that each child will have assessed themselves and done the first draft of the personal action plan. fourthly that each child on that action plan would have outlined where they would hope to go and following that have found out what the requirements are, the possible pathway through and if they aren't sure, i was gon , what i was gonna ask was, if i could have a careers teacher in to talk to form about possible pathway through,i in the general terms so they've got these four outcomes there. right. include it in that, those twelve weeks because i know it's, you know, a bit erm i would try and see if i could set up some sex education with the health centre and the , you know , that she used to take them and they went through contraception and condoms and whatever at the, and she used to take them down for an afternoon it might well be that they have to miss a lesson little bit of light relief in terms of sex education. mhm. and then the first day in health, if we can fit it in, but by easter term so at their half term, february half term i would like to think they've got those four things on, we've got yeah. an in and ecta er, an industry day done where you know, it's about the qualities needed in the young person, they have a certificate that they're going to have to say they've got these qualities, right? right. and a compact certificate, and they've got some sex education and possibly some first aid. right. if the sex education doesn't work. so you're talking about february half term, you're talking about three half term's work right? then? erm erm, a ten it the there's various units and as a unit erm are the family and i felt that perhaps at that stage are you not on the family and what it's about. okay. er, and i would like to pick up a unit after every half term but around that, you know, somewhere along get them into something really tangible has has has anne written a unit on the family? no, i must do that yeah i would have a word with anne jus , just from stuff i wo it's on the list. stuff i was listening to this morning i don't whether that was one of the things but she's certainly looking at areas like that. christian marriage. was it? might be worth talking to her. she's written on the marriage one but she's got what i an eleventh grade. mm. all i'm suggesting is i it could link with her so mm. you know i would like to think that after doing the stuff and the and that, that they actually get down to something solid. but, you see at february we're then into review er cro er reviewing the pdp's for some reason or another, i've written down here and profiling reporting to parents. right. that takes me up to easter. summer term? well er, summer term er, looking back at year ten erm is work's experience a , they're writing that owing to personal statements and end of summer term right. following the work's experience there is a half term there, so it can either come before that or after it and i'll do a unit and it might be on safety or, if i can't erm first aid i might get safety in and they'll do it like that and we'll fill in some units. okay. it needs, having and it and it's, yeah. it's it's a long stretch of time the troops need pinning down with it that's all i'm saying. right. okay? they'll need some dates for reviewing and i'll i'll write it down . okay! mil? and i say i i can't, i honestly cannot remember what i was doing, i remember the environment one because i got a module written on that erm i remember that i had put in er i want to do first aid and safety in the home sort of thing er, they were three modules that i wanted er, to do. options naturally come around weeks er fifteen. pardon? january the fourth week fifteen. week fifteen yeah. you've got. er, and that term there because after the half term they have to start making their choices isn't that right? yeah, option there a always used to be a half term's work. always used to be half term, but milvia it can only be half an hour! it's there's to choose for them any more! i aye, i see what you mean, right, yeah. there's nothing at all! there is a certain amount of choice and yeah, but i'm being i facetious! there's hardly any! but there's still, we still i mean er er you perhaps need to talk to rob to see what he wants his input, it's always been a bit airy fairy and there, there are sheets! the choice is not the same but they should be aware of some of the implications if they choose to go down such and such a road. there is a need for, and i say with all due respect, an unbiased er, piece of advice from people who ha , don't have an axe to grind in terms of specific subjects because some children er in my opinion are sometimes lead down wrong avenues mm. er, to gratify in inverted mm. commas individual teachers and we do have to be very careful about that. i was trying to hint at that this morning that we're looking at a whole child and sometimes they're not gonna succeed in a subject they've put it cos there's sod all else for them to put and we need to be aware of that. so there is some choice and ah, yeah, we perhaps need to think about whether you know better from last year whether it's still a half term. it isn't a half term just pain , mainly now to go through the options and choose it but if you were perhaps bring in as you co , i've got written down your careers officer mm. mhm. for one week, say, or perha , probably have to be two cos you sorry ca , can i just interrupt there? you know how i do , i couldn't remember that i'd actually started the the easter term doing the erm choices etcetera, i always thought it was the later half of that term, the latter half of that term. it isn't, so starting in january but we haven't been well i hadn't i hadn't written it down here as being february the eighth you were starting . february the what? eighth, er yeah. week twenty to fine. i don't know why but i always thought it was some nearest and we do , what the tenth year the other half of that term. what the ninth years did this year was rob gave them a pep talk and and there's a booklet, choices, he gives out and asks them that's right. to work their way through it, along with the choices there is a vi a video to go mhm. and then they're supposed to do some work with the form teacher talking about where the strengths and weaknesses li , you know again. but this isn't in tutorial is it? p s d would do it. this is tutorial this year. tutorial. yeah! mm! but then well in year in they year nine how can they do it in p s d? that's right oh aye , that's er but the er, the careers officer came into to er do a ans question answer session on the last one and it was too bigger form you know, the kids wouldn't speak. probably in the ! erm the er er i ca can i just say that the introduction of the choices booklet need a real bit of it was a bit who did that? she said rob. mhm. and the vid , you see the video really should come before the choices, the mhm. video should be there before the magazine. and before mm. the booklet choices and then the discussion can get going but the careers officer for half an hour. right , but one of the things we have to remember is, and i know it's sort of a sha , but you have the experience of last year and, that has to be shared you know to to sort of cut the corners yo you've gotta pass it back a year or up a year, whichever whatever happens and you've made a very valid comment there and you need to make note of that that, you know somehow you have to work round rob to get it bit better. the way round him with him buying well a minute, is there any reason why he has got to do that, because he has no other contact with year nine at all? but he should be having contact with year nine. yeah but rob should be working across the school. mm. but it's it's it's hard work! i mean so instead of me doing, let's say, the february do the eighth the twentieth week you're saying i should be starting this for january term? well what i'm looking at is you haven't got anything at all right! no, so i'm right then sandra? if i would do them later because i tell you what happens then, there will be a ch , there may well be a choice in two columns, i don't know if that yes. one's like this but the problem we hit this year er, we didn't do it that early was the kids had got the forms out then the timetable and the financing came in and we didn't know what was happening we didn't what staffing was. and we actually we actually had done the options aye. and then it all had to be scrapped and by the middle they had to do it again. yeah. midnight one night to produce another form mm. so i would say closer right. to er you know, really to er th the se the the second half mm. of the mm. spring term coming up to easter because until you know your budgets and your what's wrong with ? staffing, and your numbers what's wrong with that term? you don't know what's gonna be offered. doing your choice then? yeah. because in the past dave we've actually tried to tie it in with parent's evening to sort of use it as a bit of a motivator to jeer the, gee them up before the end but if i so if you're putting it in the second half of the second term if i come running along here same old bug bear cos i'm science, i still have no confirmation from anybody yet what about these sats that the kids do? you're gonna have three huge curriculum areas, maths, english and science they'll have taken their sats we have got to report on them and technology do sats this year. you're doing, well there's four, there's half the, nearly half the curriculum the kids are doing i'm not quite sure yet cos we're this chicken and egg which starts first i think we're gonna look at a an an interim type report in year nine a quicker type report i can't remember what it's, it's written down in my other diary because what i don't want to happen is to, people to have a onerous report at the end of year nine, cos they're gonna have to do a report there now well they've got no choice no choice. it says so! or and the cho , it has, this is, it has to be there by , we can actually just do a national curriculum report which gives a level, that's all! bum bum, levels out! okay? or a fully comprehensive report so there's a little bit of leeway in that yet. no, we're not saying it's the leeway might be important,cos as i said, these choices, and sandra will agree, there's only two columns, that isn't gonna increase! er, and there's actually choices within columns as well, you know the , it's split up its do your geography, or do your geography? mm. do you french, do you spanish? but there is . but it's still yeah. a long but at the same time they shouldn't just be looking at the subjects in isolation mm mm. yeah. they should be actually looking forward to what, if i do these they're gonna do. subjects what will that then lead me into? right. mm mm. there's the process of evaluating what's happening and that's mhm mm. important. and er i i would honestly put it in the, in the march period it's on the second can i ask half of the spring term. do you know ta i i know tyneside see i find i side in in the the er thing for edinburgh university, you know when they do their careers choice their jobs and interests information guide from the edinburgh? they're doing what they call a job wise which is probably som something, they fill in a questionnaire which say whatever i think that's coming in now things that you can cos you have erm is normally four, four, sorry tenth and eleventh years in sixth formers, and they've also got a subject choice section as well, which i have used in the past for ninth years and it wa , it just got them thinking about things in a completely different way from what we, they've ever done mm. before and i, i thought the cho , the subject choice was er was good. so? can't give you an answer sorry! and i just wondered i've heard of jigcar yeah i just wo , just trish wa , mentioned it to you. mm? trish mentions it. ah. you see yeah. the thing, the thing though mm. i just wonder whether nor , if north tyneside have got a contract there is absolutely no reason why there is reason, i mean that sort of thing why we should use it. i mean the filling in of the form and that and, you know, which you in , you know what grades you've got, you're interests, what you think you're good at, what you'd like, you know the mm. all that, and then the computer analyses and comes up with areas of where they think you might be mm. whereas considering the co the jo families and mm. and things, job families er, we've got that already and we've got, there's gonna be the computer thing on careers but you see we've only managed this year to get it brought down from year eleven, somebody who went into this, keeping it very close to myself, to bring it down to year ten they're actually you know, it's very, very difficult to let them remove it and i can't see that you can then make that down to ninth year just yet. it's but subject choice is a completely separate thing to the careers section of it. cho yeah! choice. mm you know, i had to go and and get trained in a separate mhm. course to do it. anyway i just wondered that was all. oh yeah. i i if we you know that if we've got that was one part that take a note that's avenue for you to explore. yeah. that, that is one part of the tutorial programme, the ninth year that you can't change mm mm. it has to be er, that particular trend. it certainly needs to be in that term. ya. it can afford to be a bit later but i don't se , i don't see that the well i can remember then the last year when i was in the ninth year we did it in that half term, it wasn't the first it was always, it was part. it was always before half term. i've always done it mm. before half term. i've always done it before half term! alri ee ee it! i'd have had it tied up but then staffing was constant, you knew what courses mm. you were gonna be offering right. as sandra says we've done it twice this year. we had to do it later and later. i was ru run ragged! yeah. last term then however never mind! the thing is, i can't do the environment, well it's not that i can't do it when i was talking to er to the tuto the form tutors yesterday er they're biggest keen i think catherine had happened to notice some work that sandra had done that she found er, interesting enough and where the kids should be knowing about, it was about banking how to sign a cheque, how to look after finances erm you know, do i have to buy a pair of trainers because it's got reebok on them, this sort of thing. and that caught the interest of everyone straight away er, budgeting, how to be able to look at banking etcetera, and i said well and i want you to do that first so i don't mind mainly because i was gonna work wi with anne about the, with the environments, and then it's science, couldn't cover with the with the environment that she would like me in tutorial to do and er she hasn't, well it's not her now, unfortunately, i think it's sue that is supposed to be working with me cos i want to do something on recycling of rubbish etcetera within the school and do a big sort of er project on it. plus within my environmental thing i would like to be able to see if we can get four areas within the school and what i was thinking about, not the big areas outside in the gardens etcetera but do you know as you walk along from our corridor up past the dining hall and there's that little bit of enclosed space which is a a total mess that looks horrific! oh yes! and there's another bit by the science block and there's another bit i can't remember now where but there was three areas that i suddenly identified, i'm thinking it's grotty, it looks awful when you're clearing up for lunch look out the window it's the enclosed garden. that's right. oh yeah! can we not do something and the japanese maybe give it a class project in the six or eight weeks that that particular er class is looking at the environment, again,from school, cos remember we've got the bins and we've got little er mm. they're improvements that i started with ninth year. so let's say we can say if we can get the kids to look at improvements on that way. now, they're not too bad, the form tutors agreed the trouble is though i've got one in english george which is not too far away one in science but it's that end of science and catherine. and catherine now, catherine is ideal because she opens her double doors and she's out into a garden space you know? and she likes that garden and she doesn't mind working for something on that. i think that, you know george wouldn't mind er, and maria wouldn't mind, maybe it's martin trying to find for for our martin. one of the problems is you ne , it's alright saying something on the environment, you have to tighten up what it is you're gonna do. if it's practical how you're gonna occupy twenty kids what resources i've got it remember? that er i sent away. right. you know? so, well that's alright. yeah. and you're time of year cos if you this is the thing you see now if you're gonna be wanting to plan cos if you're gonna looking at if you're gonna want yeah. to grow things you've gotta do it at a specific time if you're gonna wanna plan and this is why i want to. if you're gonna plan bare rooted trees and stuff you've gotta be doing it in the dormant season, so you're talking october, november possibly october. well this is this is what i was trying to work out looking at the banking erm module that sia , sandra's just given me could for the nine weeks right? so therefore, if this term i've got one, two, three, four, five weeks roughly left and i know that sometimes erm what's that? oh that's november, december can we not be doing something in those five weeks on the environment? and then continue with it later on in the year it's up to you! it's your ee, as far i'm concerned i'm asking you to tell me what you're gonna do! but you've gotta tell me which is the best season, say if i wannit to flower! well what do you wanna do? if you wanna put plants in you can't you can't do it before ar before march. right. so you do it there is one after you're you've gotta, you're talking about, yeah. beginning of the summer term. after easter basically. yo you see talked about recycling. you can't do that in the christmas one? no. co conservation planting er, is not recycling! i mean i you've gotta be clear what it is you actually want to do. the environment is what she said! see , sue hasn't come back to me, the science department hasn't come to me so i'm not, i may leave that and say, and do something like that next year in a module or wait until i've finished again i don't mind, that's still something in my mind which i would like to do but because talking to the form tutor's, what i had written down as a fait a complet erm they're not too keen so therefore i opened up and say you know, which particular things they were interested in the banking one they are very interested in the environment one, yes, within the school tidy upping area that they would like to do but i've gotta be able to, and i don't when planting season is or if i wanna put, be able to put flowers in etcetera, you see what i mean? mm. you could do your planting there in that last five weeks there you could think about doing actually doing about er, about the . recycling. aha. yeah. well you can't go out then cos it'll be snowing right yeah. i mean, so therefore, it's gotta be more a, of a erm a recycling. a per , you know a a theoretical thing innit? well it, it could be , well it could or writing to oh writing inside. well you see that, that that's one of reasons why we're all sitting doing it cos terry's just said and i've got an environment thing, now that doesn't mean it's wrong. no. alright. cos there's no reason why you can't have two projects on no. the go, and they'll change almost yeah. by definition cos they're right, right. two years older and they can do lots of other things oh different one year older. so i'm still actually. not happy that we've got time allocated prompting you. and i'm putting on the spot i'd like you to start a bit earlier . and all i'm gonna say, i'm not gonna ask you to say well i might, i might , i might you need to have sorted out exactly what you're doing in there whilst you give mm. tutors the chance to say what they've gotta do, you gotta be careful about complete negotiation there's an element of deciding that's what we're gonna do and we're gonna do it and it's gotta be spelt out for them. oh they can't give me any more. get you a programme . it was yesterday was that, only ten people come get you a programme at tenth minute. forward with, catherine came forward with banking. six thirty? so you've given her o so now you're into saying, get onto it! i mean without me yeah. but one of the things that always we we don't dave did a project a couple of years on consumer awareness which i think yeah. went brought newspapers in and all sorts of mm. things that went down a bundle! well you had a great time with it! oh certainly, yeah! they your your classes ninth they were very good! years weren't they? er, tracey and that lot was it not them as ninth years or something? tenth year. tenth year. tenth year, yeah. yep! which we haven't picked up on and perhaps, right so but you need that firmed up that's all i can say to you. no, and i can give you a fair deal pack, remember on consumer rights? mm. which might fill in those five weeks if you want it. right. you can do money management i mean, and then go onto consumer affairs. consumer right, right. that's right you know. and that takes your winter term and then you can,yo your clearing could be done starting in the summer. turn round the spring and the summer if you want. can i just say as we , one of the reasons we're talking through this if you have something that yo , ah that might be useful! will you please share it! what i don't wa , i know it's handy sometimes you think, ah that covers a lot of things for me and you may have come across something yourself i'll the there is a key, there should be a key to those things in my cupboard, those lifelines things not the same as cha , i've got all sorts of ideas that you might pick out and say right we can use that as a lesson you might even just say well sod copyright i'm gonna photocopy that and i'll use it! please look in them, just browse through the front cos mm. what i've tried to do is not to and we've had the money, is to buy one in each set cos we haven't got the money to buy full sets, thirty books is a joke! and i shall deny ever ha . you're not got it they don't do one i've got copyright there. send it. i've actually said it now, and it's down in black and white or red and green or whatever! but, do you know what i mean? mm. not that you've ever it's about looking done that before! no, never ever! no. no! we must stop talking about that. but there are resources not in books. there and i know they're not great, but the there's quite a lot in them isn't them. if you do your environmental recycling i've got a thing that i took out of a magazine that's got all the addresses of erm of of the various thing for recycling paper mhm. waste products all sorts of stuff like there's a that. and it's just, you know well there's that green and grey thing that i keep passing onto i've got it. you! there's another one i've got another here actually cos it's been i'll tell you what's in the there's that school's curriculum industry fi si simulation on the dustbin game. it's an environment , and it's actually an activity that goes on in the classroom. it mm. gives you the resources, and tell the teacher how to manage it it's all about the, and it's that, you know it's not listen , it is actually what's it called. i've got a copy of it the dustbin game. dustbin game ! remember we looked at it, it's an environmental awareness on oh somewhere in the back of my mind. but at the end of the da , i'm sorry if i keep com , i want a heading and i i don't mm. want ages i don't stacks written up but we'll get that now. but i do mm. need an outline. gotta present it saying that this is what's happening. i had one, as i said i had it all. you haven't okay. yet what will happen towards the end of the year for reporting on these after the sats will that effect her tutorial at all? oh yeah! i mean, she's gotta watch that. it's fourteen year olds isn't it? main modules do you take that for science tests as well? sorry? well we often lose a er a year yeah. for a module for a just stuck it there to stop the door opening testing. but er what? not at all,the they ta , they take nine tutorial for science tests wouldn't we? they have where? yeah. if they missed a one not all year well if they've groups gone out. no the oh! no, only through the headmasters only, and that was er originally when we always exams at the same time and that was done as a school policy not science department! exam english department did it last term. yeah yeah. we've got certain rules that say all children must sit certain exams at certain times, it hasn't been possible to do it in the labs mm. and it used to get bounced well around the subjects. sometimes it was ours have been there are, it was english wasn't it? sometimes it was maths. yes. i have but to say the situation has improved dramatically because i have said if we're gonna i know give tutorial credence it can't just be assumed you can take them out of tutorial and it has stopped tremendously. but the head does it! oh. anyway, to get back to what i said hold your breath ! you would have more information on that than milvia would have for that, after they done the sats and they're marked reports have to be sent out, we must report at the end of key stage three. milvia certainly wouldn't have a clue what a report looks like cos i don't! i don't. nobody no. else knows. not, mean just we have just er er spent two hours looking at a report whether that will be the report we'll use at that particular time needs to be agreed yet. it may well be you mean you didn't have an agreement mr ? well, we've got a report designed. it may well be we decide all we're gonna send home is the result of the sats, and it may just be a sheet with the subject names on and levels in, full stop. it may well be that we send what we consider to be the fuller report there. mm. all we have to do is report to the parents once a year it doesn't say that everything has to be on the report sheet at the same time it may well be some information goes at one particular time and some at another. i'm sure it says a written comment must be made for each subject. it doesn't say here . but that, it doesn't say after the sat, the written comment can be made er, where we send er d and i reports home at the moment, i.e. er, just after half term in the second term. doesn't say at the end of the year, i don't think. well i will ask on behalf of milvia. but we'll we'll i mean, that's gotta be but i will ask on behalf of milvia what does everybody feel about that? about what? well i would prefer to make the comment about how a childs done in the sat at the end of key stage three than than february time. mm. can i make the point that if you don't get to the parents of kids kids, before the end of summer term you could be jeopardising the chances of what they're doing in the sats because if you get to the parent erm in the beginning of the spring term and say you know, fred is not doing particularly well because of this the parents are then in a position to do something about it but if you actually tell them once, basically the stable doors closed what can oh i they do? quite agree. so i think see what the fuller report and the contact with the parents should be happening prior to that stage. but one of the problems is you're also reporting on year seven and eight then at yes. the moment you're now saying we've gotta do a full report on year nine and you're mm mm. just at the start of g c s e exams. mm. now you're alright, that's everything should happen there but it is not physically impossible but it's gonna put staff under a lot of stress and we're gonna have to play the game of making it workable. i mean it's typical government policy, bang, there it is now you lot sort it out! and i agree with you entirely it would nice there no. but i think the reality is we'll probably end up with the detailed report there and sats results sent home afterwards. that fine but it's not helping i think. milvia now! we're on the same side, that's what i've just said! you get, you get to the parents at stage in the yeah. game so they can have an effect on the child so that the outcome is better if you just if you don't get to them till there the child's done the sats and it's over right and done with. but whether that meets what the government expects of us i'm not exactly sure because whether they want the written report at the sa won't change till next year anyway! well it probably won't. i know it's just laid down as as sheet as to what you're supposed to put down and all sorts but i can't remember exactly how detailed it's gotta be. see, if it's just a one statement sat mm. then the departments will do and milvia get it and that's it, she'll have nothing to do! oh sorry about this but cor! are you going? no. no. it's a meeting. okay. sumalia. beafra it used to be innit? it used to be beafra picking the flies off the trees. yeah. right are we okay then? where are we at? er milvia's finished. year eight. right, must be me. and then terry? i've got one more module left oh yes. sorry you carry on. that i wanted to do something about safety or first aid and that's it. oh but, did you not talk da about doing safety or first aid? mine's well year ten, it's year nine oh well year nine will be doing something different. i'm doing mine to start off with. okay, well so you need to be cos i was talking to lilian , she was thinking that each year she'd be given an update it should be a five year plan. right, but what needs to happen is if we continue like this we're gonna be re-inventing the wheel every year and making a lot of work for yourselves. yeah. can i ma and that's what's happening at the moment, because we're not sitting down and saying, i mean, this is my worry about oh we might do this there, that's why i want it tightened up because at the end of the day we start, we have various modules at a later date, two, three years time whatever we might decide to sling out but it should really be designed, worked upon so that the incoming person can use it as a basis given their limitations mm mm. or abilities and build on it cos at the moment everybody's re-inventing the wheel and you're making a lot of work in my opinion. well perhaps to se se se er, you know streamline or rationalise what we're doing i mean you know, we can we've asked that we actually hand you in our section on this, right? if it's put together on one sheet er we can actually sa sa say right this is what we're gonna do this term. when we've actually given you the full thing in, the minutes, the mights, and where and whatever, you can look at it and say hey, there's too much of that but what we're addressing is the moral aspect of a child's upbringing that perhaps we should be and say well right fine er, it might, i'm just taking on environmental, right, now the year children to do environment there, but it's really happening down there, i feel that these children in the past haven't he so can we take that out this year and bring in something totally new, totally different that you feel should go in erm so that it is more rationalised it's not just my people doing what they want when you see the, the whole thing you can make suggestions and we come back and go back through it again we actually say to the form teachers this is what this will definitely happen for this term but when we've looked at the whole five year sa side we might change some things. the other aspect i was gonna suggest is i mean, i've said of stuff of the environment, terry's not if we take topics and we say right there's a i mean, i've got these boxes i will donate you know, like letter, you know lo lo boxes which can be labelled and all the information on environment goes in there so that perhaps, we made up, you know plastic, hard plastic . so you're a , sort of under a topic under a theme heading? mhm. yeah. so it's in year ten, sandra does it er does it you did that for safety in the home? mhm. where ann wrote it for last year, for my ri mm. you know, for last years. mm. but if we put, if i put box up the name of safety of tha , er but make a point of the next time getting all in, in and put into that and copies. mhm. then it's all there together. yeah i, one of the, yeah yeah, i to started off doing a little bit like that but you find things don't actually sit in categories very well that's becomes one of the problems. what's that , that's issues book is right idea wasn't that yep. that was just issues one. yep. mhm. i know. and then that's the one that you gave us copies cos you had you said you were gonna get five mm. five copies of of that. i've got that somewhere, who's got that? have i handed those you have. you want what? no, we've only got that. we haven't got the book. well i've got the book we, you only gave us the themes. where's the book? got the book. but they're the ones i ordered, do you order those under s m b? can't remember. yeah, the book i thought we'd got those books, i've put them in the cupboard haven't i? oh yeah, i've seen the books. the books are there. yeah, the books are there. you have a look in the cupboard, i keep telling you to look in the yeah. cupboard! you go to cupboard and look! okay! terry? right year eight. what i've done is just taken over from catherine last year on her topics which er, seem to quite successful and i certainly know that marian did them last year and found them good. the first one was community and i know, erm that catherine wasn't very happy about the community side of things and i've looked at the the pamphlet things and it needs updating a little bit so i took the fact that the royal quay's were down at our doorstep and contacted linda who was extremely helpful and she's put together erm, a package of things along with me, i went down last week and the first week the ninth is going to be explaining to the classes what we're going to be doing, each form teacher will be able to do that and the sixteen and the twenty third there are visits down to the royal quay's education centre erm for which can we we'll walk down to that? no. no. which is paid for by royal quays oh a grant. i believe two coaches erm, one for the r group and one for the g group is this september you said? and that's in september sixteenth sixteenth and the twenty third. mhm. when one of the groups is down there the mediwell police unit are coming up to to to talk to two groups, i thought it was better to talk to mm. two than four about their input under the mediwell and then after that, on the thirtieth linda's coming up to school erm and we're going to actually well, eleanor's in english and paul's in his room, cath will be in with the tutors and paul will come into my classroom that particular time she can go round all the groups and discuss what they've thought. she's also produced very kind of her erm, a questionnaire about the royal quays erm to take home to their parents and grandparents to bring back and about, probably get a couple of copies of that and then when they've done that the seventh and fourteenth she's going to, or we're gonna select two pupils from each of the classes to go out with her, one group to go into the middle of north shields thanks dear. to ask questions about what the royal quay's are gonna be about and a group to go into the mediwell itself. now, i volunteered to go into the mediwell because i'm i don't like it down there and er, linda will go into the centre of new into the centre of north shields with a particular person a a form teacher or whatever, probably. when they're doing that others will be collating the information and hopefully er, the television cameras, b b c have expressed an interest in coming down and so have the newspapers to actually do erm some sort of documentary on that, and put a display up in the school and also down at the royal quays just linked to us. right. so that's that particular, that's that first half term. it may go on after half term because she may not be able to come down on those two days, if that happens then i'll have other back up material for them right. to do. erm, she asked if we were very keen to involve the school, i said yes we were cos she said nobody really taken a great interest in the royal quays not mm. that they hadn't but schools, particularly high schools and i said well we were very interested as part of the the programme here because it was community erm not geography, because she's a geographer and she says the geography side of it's fine she will use information that the children collect for her benefit, but she'll also use us you know, to define the information but she mm. would also recognise that we've done it with her not purely and simply just because we've been down. so, she's very keen, so she's coming in quite a bit erm, over the first half term and she hopes that'll continue during the year, not particularly with just the year eight people but maybe get other people to involve themselves as well. so that's the first term. that's quite simple erm and that's organised and done, she's quite happy to do good! that. great! sounds, that sounds quite exciting! the after half term erm the programme is enterprise and i know catherine has lots lots of booklets here on it and i'm gonna just update bits and pieces and i see there's some mm. things in there, the issues, and mm. it's got er you did a smashing thing on to be worked out. christmas didn't you? that's right, christmas decorations. yeah! so obviously i'll be asking well i'll be asking catherine how to do things but the heading is enterprise but it's open ended enough well, yeah for the form yeah. tutors to do their own thing? for the form, yeah. that's right. erm i mean last year some, some of them did just sort of a paper exercise whereby the yeah. they worked out, and for example how you would organise a trip to er, flamingo land or something like that and and yeah. all, everything that would be in involved and er but buts a lot of the, what we did was, you know, erm just how you would er ta erm how you would try and start there and and decorate a place and make it look better which again, is part of your environment environment thing but we linked it right into christmas decorations and how they would build them and how they'd make them, and how difficult it was and to to actually make something that looked er, reasonably good mm. to put up in your room, let alone, something that was reasonably enough, enough that people may wanna pay money for. mm. you know and and it actually sort of, it made them really sort of think about quality and excellence and su and stuff like that which mm. er, i felt was was very very valuable. i was down at t v i as well borrowing their video camera and er margaret said that she'd be quite keen to come involved as well if i want any help from her mm. so i took the offer because she she she offered mm. so er so i said, oh well fine, so i'll i'll leave options open. well, again it's no bad thing if i i they're not, no not erm it might well be that one of the one of the forms could go down there to have a morning as part of this project to do yeah. carry out some particular activity. yeah, that's right. i mean it's it's a dimension you can bring into it. she offered that. after that's the spring term we're into now, after christmas erm health now there was there are packages and catherine gave them to me on personal hygiene, things like that and i think paul erm i know he would be keen he said, he'd be keen to maybe put a package together with the help of all the form teachers plus myself and maybe do a bit into health, cos i mean you know it's it's oh great! and then you also pick that room and things like that just to demonstrate how that can be used yeah. mm. for health. er, i don't wanna put the onus on paul to do that, i i've asked and said i he said he'd be queen, you know be ke , that was before the mm. summer, so i'll do that with him. then i've got the environment which again, comes right the way through until erm just before half, well just after half term that's week thirty three before half term. is it terry? yeah. yeah, that's up to the fifth , the fifth. erm there are again there is information, there's lots of packages on environment there's boo , booklets on it which catherine gave to me and i think i need to think about specific areas in the school like milvia's doing but not to overlap if milvia does think about that, to try something else, some other way. er, there is an environmental officer for the north tyneside council who goes into schools and di and discusses things as well, there's there's there somebody but i i actually on the on the mhm. council who do that and er, they're quite happy to take you round all the er, take you down to the incinerator and see what happens, where all your different bits and pieces go. what happened to the keep britain tidy group, they were re-named? they used yeah. to have er right. school support er yeah yeah yeah. people i can't remember where they are but they i never re realised we're doing a module in the eighth year was environment, i always thought it was always the ninth year? mhm. is this new new or was it the last year? no, no i'm su , well this this work is all from christine ! that's all christine 's work as well, who went o that's two years ago! two years ago now mind! mm , you see that's why we're sharing it! we didn't we didn't er do environment last year because we were into . ah wa well you see, now what i've done here is isn't it? well the environment bit there erm but i've missed out readathon yeah. right. that that we did so that's why i've had to fit in. well that we did this i haven't that's right. bothered with the readathon, but then the whole readathon. again, you know er but that's the environment. then it comes up to erm the twelfth of may sorry, when was that environment, from where from on that's from week twenty two that's week, that's the third of the third second half term. second half term. right, cos so it's that only, so it's one, two, three, four, five weeks? five, yeah and then i sort of could extend it in english alright, into the summer term but if necessary, but i think it will be five from what i can gather. yeah. then obviously it's statements to parents and depending on what happens there because the parent's evening and i've put down here the fir , eighth year parents into the sixth of july and judging, working back from weeks that we'll need to collect information it could bring you right back into the twelfth mm. of may, so we'll need one, two mhm. three mm. four, five, at least six weeks to do that then after that i've i i've assumed that we'll be doing a review and i think yeah. looking at it i've allowed one, two, three, four tutorial weeks that's right. for collation that's right. so prior, prior to that the deadline will probably be for yeah. half term for subject specifics or that's right. immediately that's right. after half term. that's right. i've these are just ideas. i mean i'll give one of these to each of my form teachers so they know, they're gonna write in bits and pieces whatever they want to know. actually terry , do you have a blank sheet with just the dates? no i haven't. no, you've actually got no , i ju i did aha. actually i did after. cos that, i mean that's the sort of thing which we get over the problem yes. that you worrying about and it me means a bit more work for us mm. but if we actually said blow by blow what you're supposed yeah. to be doing. i'm also putting on here i think so. if that's an idea. all the planning facilities could right as well. well but that's why i like this one, you know the one that you did? mm mm. the master ones. i i work from that and give out to form. mhm. i still like that one, i know it's a smaller yeah. thing, it's an yeah. a four i like it. i like but terry's because you can write everything on it. you can wri , they can write on it, i can yeah. see why. can i, could i say to you that i think that would be a good thing to do terry. that's a super idea! well i can do another one if you want. i mean do another one. but could i suggest a blank. you do a blank terry? yeah, i'll do a blank mm. one yeah. and er, what i also like about it is,a as sandra's just said and you've just said you put in things like parents. important dates yeah. that are agreed i've put the planning things in instead of what the, what it's gonna be yeah. for the i think that's a damn good idea! now just a thought that i did. no i think that's excellent! yeah. if you did a blank that would be a value dave. right, i'll do that. alright. mm? and the last three weeks i've put on road safety because i know there's a lot of road safety stuff oh yeah! and read up to the summer okay. holidays when they're gonna be on holiday, so i thought well that'll be yeah. and that could be the er the yes that and the things you've got plenty on, and plus right. the things that are in the class file. you see the the the other thing there is when you're actually doing reviewing and stuff yo yo you you do i know review er profiling mm. yeah. cos that's the process, it still is the yeah. process in there but you actually could do with something that youngsters wo work sheets, word quizzes whatever mm. perhaps on a theme that they can get on with while yeah. form tutors are talking yeah. to individuals if they want to. or when form tutors need ah. some support, you're going in or you're using one of the policy right. group to go in and to spell them so they can talk to individual kids. well you see what we're do , what we did last year was that there sorry! was erm terry and supposedly bill and supposedly colin, or between were, were looking after the rest of the year that's right. groups he's never done it before. while we had er er aye? maybe half a dozen kids it worked out that terry actually was looking after year seven and year eight while all the tutors that was year had eight . erm maybe half a dozen kids doing the written work talking individually to the member of staff, so you didn't have twenty odd kids all in talking all at the same time, all mm. talking, all messing each other bits up, you had about six spread round your room for that time, and it was so good and we got through it so quick, there were so few mistakes because you only ever had six maximum kids in your room at once at that was only because terry offered to put on a video an and occupy. occupy the rest of your class yeah. while you got on with mm. the nitty gritty and it really and the form teacher actually said who they works! wanted next . right, but perhaps what we should do now is in-bill that get your policy group member to agree it, even line your video up and so they are committed and you put it on paper so all the form tutors see that and the head or whoever it is is committed at that time to be taking the rest of the year so they can profile. comments fair that he did, he did come in twice and se the third time he said i'm sorry i had to. i'm sure he did! you know and but nobody else knows. the situation is slightly different now there are other tutors available and i'm available. yeah. and i, and i mean it'll be terry and i available at the time cos i that's good! i would hire the form you see and they're talking that's right and catherine had form christmas party mm. you know, so we were unable to help terry out might even get afoot. erm, and that's why colin would don't need a not really any good. and he did say they would have helped terry if he didn't have all of he'd got , yeah. yeah but that's not the rest of year seven and year eight start doing as well but in practice that's not what happened. what you do and what i do are different. but in reality that's what was planned. well that's right. and a from a form teacher's point of view have you got your ? it was well i know, i know you sometimes feel you don't have clout , if it's not happening you gotta come to yes. to me and say look i agreed and i will say to the other forms that they've go , they've all got a re a responsibility! yeah. and yeah. i know it's not easy. cos it worked didn't it? oh it worked! from from our points. did you not talk the back of my mind about change to the report system? because it's becoming unmanageable too much paper mhm. is it still gonna be the same no. layout? just well whatever system we have we still need time we'll need time to put it together. time . you will still need ti but we're still gonna have pupil erm input i do i aren't we? what time do we finish here? five o'clock. half past five. five thirty. ah. well we'll finish at six, are you buying the round? do you mind going on a i'm booked fo little bit more? are you booked? no, i'm booked for a game of croquet at half past five! pardon? aye, i'm sorry, listen you're here to damn well work you're not going off to enjoy but i'm working! yourself lad! aren't we booked for a game of croquet? no. i didn't ah beautiful! can i just say, very, very quickly report system as it stands at the moment i think it will be, there will now, we will go back to a subject specific report because we we're obliged to have national curriculum details mm. which will cu that, and they will all go home that the format has been basically agreed. but we will in a spirit of recording achievement have a form tutor sheet if you like. we will need,we we'll have to work on this which will involve the philosophy of having er perhaps a joint statement and perhaps on putting a short personal statement in. mm. so we've actually moved the process towards the the complete er, record of achievement process. we which i would hope when will itemise the qualities and strengths of the child that you want to cover, like when we do personal statements or joint statements in the tenth and eleventh year that if the form teacher just can't write well fred's worked very well, he's done extremely well in english we'll actually start to talk about him as an individual and his strengths and weaknesses. mm. well we now have but we should have a core a of people who've handled records of achievement and done records of achievement and they should you know not everybody has but we should what staff are capable of in terms of doing this has has has moved dramatic and there's some still who struggle but everybody's getting more and bit of that that we do in year ten eleven can that be transferred down the line so that there's a similar type of thing oh yes! that's being done using yes. similar word tes , you know, not testing erm er, commenting on similar skills etcetera? yes. yes. yes. we spent a lot of time talking about general skill and abi , everybody will still comment on general skills yeah. and ability. right. but it will be on a ten point scale and it'll be ticky box, ten points yeah. cos it refers back to national curriculum. mhm. okay so er four, five and six are average and mm. up to nine and ten mm. if anybody gets, and the criteria also right. and the general skills and ability. you'll be able to, there will be a form they'll be a subject tutor comment and then there's leeway within subject areas for the child to write a couple of sentences their mhm. own comment for it to be a negotiated comment, and i've left this to departments cos mm. they need to, or can't remember third one it doesn't matter. mhm. teacher, the for , the teacher must comment mhm. there is then a choice mm. within the department, you don't have to, i would hope everybody could yeah would cos that's an it's just accommodative recording achievement, not failure yeah. recording achievement. i jus , i think that it is good to actually pin point you know, the various things that we are definitely moving yeah yeah. and what we think is actually erm i mean it whatever important in that's right! ju er er making a judgement about that individual well i, that's right you know. i mean it may well be we'll say in year seven, look the things we're looking for here and i want everybody to comment on is, a er, how well they've settled down er how well they're getting on with others but there's no reason why you can't make those decisions. yeah that's right. you know or and things like, yeah. do you know what i mean? cos it'll change from seven to eight yeah. and nine cos they expectation's mm. different isn't yeah. it? yep. but i mean if, if for example we work on punctuality absolutely! then then then things like the basic philosophy that that's right! whatever we've been working on then, yeah. are reinforced all the way up the school. yeah. yep. yeah. how we doing? terry? right well that was it, that and you end up with loads of paper. the last three weeks was the road safety one which i thought was mm. was useful and that's which actually is something i was thinking about doing with year seven but i mean as it's it's it's well far enough away in the distance to to to think about something else. but there is no reason why you can't alter the slant on it no, it's . erm it's, yeah well you said you know you might do road safety with a with an angle on, i dunno mm. well go onto railway safety, you could ro road safety well well it's us, i mean it's espec i mean er, over the holidays i heard er a thing on radio newcastle about how the metro mm. has got a special thing where they will come and yeah. do all these, they will take have them. the kids onto the metro well for nor for north shields and that, that they would er we had that little woman in cor she cos bored the pants off them! ooh sorry! she didn't half tire them out! anyway i'm tal i'm talking four or five years ago, she was desperate! well there you are. ah ma na ! the guy the train driver was better, when he got up to, he was brilliant yeah, oh the train driver was good yes. with them! well the thing is you see i think wha from what i've gathered on from the radio programme is that the actual erm the attitude of the kids to the metro had got so much worse that they're having to do something about it mm. and they're having, and especially the , yeah. they've got but they've got yes. this particular video apparently yeah? which is really, you know? terrific isn't it mm. yes! really gory! yes, yeah it is, we've seen it, yeah. and what have you, and it shows you what happens if you use that you get knocked mhm. over by a metro train at various er or electrocuted. mhm erm speeds etcetera. mm. christ! and erm i, i'd be sick and you know i couldn't watch that! mm. mm. so but what i was gonna say if you can might well be terry wou that work sheets for three weeks to sit alongside yo your road safety thing. oh yes! well i . while people do i dunno i'm just offering that as a suggestion. yeah, there's a package there about road safety mm. and a video . right marian? right you've milvia's left you and awful time cos she talked for so long, you've got two and a half minutes. right well we, we we begin ! erm with just on our basic administration and what have you and doing right. all the record cards etcetera. and then we get into settling into school er, for the first part and looking at things about coming to a new school school routine, school organisation who are the important people around school and you know i putting names to faces care things like that, caretaker caretaker, mrs erm but the the main thing i'd like to start with erm as er in particular with emphasis on is homework because okay. i think if you don't get their attitude at the beginning. to homework in year seven you haven't got a hope in hell it's a innit? in the in the erm the new er the higher groups. so what i would like to propose is that i do a homework timetable for year seven that that homework timetable goes round to all the departments and that we ask the department to stick to that timetable as far as they possibly can. i would also like, and i know this is where i'll get problems i would if we are gonna try and get the kids into a routine over them doing their work i think the easiest routine for them to have is that you do you, you get, you have your lesson you do your homework that night and you hand it in the next day. mhm. you mean instead of giving it erm instead of saying hand it in next lesson. next lesson. because i don't think that, i mean, given last year's year seven they cannot cope with that! the pace, no. it has to be done there then. so i would like to propose that erm er that we ha have it in that i it comes in the next morning and that the four form teachers know that last night they have had languages and history homework. and that they, two people, you know somebody every week will collect in all the languages books and take them along er, or the language homework and take them along to their language teacher and the other one will take the history le , homework and take them on to the history teacher, and then they go off to assembly alright? it will take a matter of minutes once they get into a routine. don't usually have . and then it's up to you know th er it just makes it so much easier for the kids alright but it also is much easier for the form teacher to know who's not bringing in homework who's who's you know er erm and what have you, and i just feel that that helps the kids get into a routine and it will highlight immediately the work problem the kids who have got work problems or problems about where they're gonna have right. having homework space at home and and things like that. as, and if but before you sorry, go on finish. sorry! no finish. but i mean would that is the the the sort of the thing i would like to put an em emphasis on in the first half of the term. yeah. right. and there's no chance! i mean there's all sorts of things wi in these er books erm the erm are they settling in, there's also stuff in there and you know, getting to know the staff, getting to know your class school rules, coming to school prepared what it's like on your first day er, their first week, what you were worried about when you first came and coming to scho , fears and realities and all mm. this sort of stuff. can i just sa , i mean colin used to do the homework timetable for every year, dish it out and everybody ignored it! yeah. yeah. wa but waste, waste of time! i mean it was always there as a defence mechanism so you yeah. could say to a parent but look the timetable says yeah just something about it, it's not getting done i well what i would suggest is i mean i i i i'm not picking that one up quite frankly i suppose but er you know, people say it's well it's pupil management you possibly right. should. erm because i think what you're doing's far more valuable, and i was going to say what you sho what you er er perhaps a way forward is to confirm with heads of departments that they will be giving homework yep. i've actually i've written something somewhere because one of the things that been discussed in c a c s is marking policies, homework policies yeah. as part of the overall er assessment reporting and recording mm procedures, because they are important. yeah. sandra? about the homework bit er i thought about it the other day and obviously mine wasn't brought up we're having a set detention night aren't we? tuesday nights. yeah tuesday. yeah tuesday nights right yeah. can i suggest and i dunno, it might not work we have a lot of children who find it difficult to wo to work at home could we hold a detention in the resource centre for the hour so if other children want to use it, i don't know, is it open after school? it it was but then we will be there last term. so a child could work for an and do any work they want to in that hour so we're doing a dual role, we're holding a detention there mm. mm. and it's u , there for manning it one of the problems is this thing about some are being punished and have to there yeah. and the others are doing voluntaril , doing it voluntarily yeah. and i i'm just bothered about yeah. there's no differentiation between them. that's right. mm. could we put it yeah. to the staff then that they volunteer one night and we do thir , and wa , you would come up once a week every thirty two weeks to man the library one night a week yeah. er, to do homework? or do i've worked resource work? mm. i've worked that process once or twice. well you're only gonna do it once mm. in thirty two weeks. but wha what about starting it out as a homework night for year seven and eight to start with? mhm. mm. yeah. are we talking about a night every night of the week or ? no, no one no, no, no one night a week. one night every week. one night a week. what would be the mileage in i know, homework diaries? now at th the last school they had these and they were, they're buying from the school shop mm. a lot of kids say to me have you got your homework? oh i didn't write it down! if mm. you've got proof, and i used to check it as a form teacher every, at the end of every week tick it and sign it i i only had about what, twenty in the class used to, every end of every week check and see they're writing their homework down and if any problems came of it hadn't written it down they were in trouble! but the kids bought them themselves those? they brought, either bought them themselves or bought them posed to beworking with me cos i want to do something on diaries they've got weekly diary, little mm. little booklets so you weekly? write them yeah, we had them. oh we have do we? we had them. but we we we we had them? we used to just mm. hand out little blue jotters as well. ah no we yeah, those used to, yeah. little pa those little books. for anything , i mean not just mm. for homework though you can actually now i'm sure som so somebody must have the skills on an a five sheet to have it halved with a an internal diary er three of those you're , it's cost you the five bits of paper and two staples! and they,lose them quickly mm. mm. but they changed over quickly cos what kids get bored with is if they've got mm. a book that's lasting them a term and they start getting trouble and he gets you know messed about the the the the they've got this book and it it reinforces the failure. what we , well you might want to think of is on a weekly one or fortnightly one i was erm gonna suggest. in technology we use a tracking sheet which is an a four sheet doubled over and it's got a er it the date beginning of the week and then it's, divide into the the lessons, there's just three boxes mm. that i when the child comes to you to si , you sign to show they're with you now, perhaps cath could amend that so that you have it you've actually got the week but five slots for homework mm. on a monthly basis. mm. i found the homework, homework diary was useful because i used to check in, end of every of week they used to know if it wasn't there i'd want to know why it wasn't done! and the form teacher how what did you use then terry? did you issue one of the ne little booklets? yes in little booklets but it was actually homework at, it was produced but for the school, had a school name and crest so it's a half thing isn't it like that? well it's jus just a little booklet really mm mm. that's all it was, like the old booklets and it used have week beginning monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday all the way along and they used to write their homework in, what they had to do see we we had them done so it was written down. didn't we? but, that red fronted one. i'm sure you had one. yeah. yeah. sixty quid they cost us! cost a yeah. lot of money! that's a lot of money. we tried it for a whole year. but if the kids mm. but if the kids are gonna buy them they used to buy these. but you can't make them buy it! no they're about no you can't make them buy them, no. i think we had them in our last and the they cost about fifty pence each. mhm. mm. and i mean the kids the kids that we yo yo some kids er, i mean they were just beautiful and other kids lost them within a couple of days! yeah, well i know. i can supply you free of charge with the blue one if you wish then or we could think about it. or if it's worth pile it in and . see i i i think part of it what,? is getting them into the habit isn't it? yeah. yeah. and saying, right we'll do them if they have to. for the first half term mhm. the trouble is if you stop some then think that it's not as important. not in , not no. important. no. but you have to be careful that by doing something like that you're not making life completely onerous aha. yeah. for everybody. yeah. i mean, to be honest i was, i'm not so so aye? so bothered about the diary as as actually trying to get that about the first weekend. the homework in. the homework mm. in and the mm. organisation i think that would be better cos for some of the kids yeah. it's just another book to lose where, i mean that's right. personally do is as a mo er er for my kids that i teach is they write their homework in the back of their exercise book so their homework diary is the back you know mhm. page of their exercise book yeah, aye we do that as well, well i do it anyway. erm so therefore as long as they take their history mm. book home they've got written in the back of the book what what it is. they're supposed to be what it is doing. yeah. erm what i what i'd like to, i mean i've written out in rough you know, what i'd like to send out to departments with the the the homework timetable and it's just, you know i i'm trying to say to the members of staff i don't wanna interfere with the way that they organise their departments or their classrooms but i want to propose, you know that things like all seventh year classes should have one homework per subject per week. mhm. good! that homework should last approximately half an hour or whatever it consists of, erm reading, written work, finishing off drawing research whatever that homework should be handed in the next day, form teachers to remind classes of this and to co-ordinate delivery of the books, papers etcetera to the member of teaching staff and that the non production of homework is to be the concern of the member of of teaching staff and not the form teacher, although regular non producers will be the concern of us all. and just that the proposals if you want to opt out of the homework timetable then they can but they've gotta let well would you me know. would you like me to mention it at briefing on monday? mm. yeah. can i then the heads of departments that you're going to yeah. communicate with heads of department yes please. can i make a point? and er then leave it with you yeah. to that you know that is actually something personally, i mean you know if you take it back to the conversation we had this morning with what we do what what the eleventh year are ending up with mm. i just feel that you know, if you if in the seventh year they get the opinion that you work in school and you do nowt out of school come ninth year, tenth year, eleventh year you ain't gonna change it! right. can i make you also find marian that we were talking about that this morning as well we cannot cover the national curriculum without more homework yeah. and the first so will this, will this will they do it? yeah but will this proposal they have to. of getting i the some sort of a working a relationship a at a more detailed where in between, we're between the staff the teaching staff and the tutor, the form tutors help the teaching staff, especially and say in your department where you you're gonna have to give them more homework. i would have to say on a personal point of view, no cos i will deal quite mhm. severely with people who don't hand homework into me and it's mm. the first thing that i do at the beginning of the lesson is one sec right. right i want to see the homework, those that haven't got it etcetera. yeah, but will it but you have to agree, i mean but will it help the members, will, but will help the child if there's a co-ordination between aha. the member yeah. of staff well there's no argument and the tutor? is there. course you got . aha. yeah. mm. but i'm as long as you're careful i mean some people i think if you the next morning this business good! would you agree to it being handed in the next day as opposed to the next lesson? well i'll, this is where i'm gonna hit you right in the head, no, i have it the next le , i'll have it in the lesson. why? why? because if i've, if it's handed into me, period one and i've got them period four i'm not gonna mark it i'm never gonna get round to marking it! and i'm gonna hand the books back out then i'm gonna have to take them back in again! well isn't that normal, or where do they normally put their books? they give it to me at the end of the lesson. is that every le , i'm not talking about homework, i'm talking about every lesson that you have as science where do they keep their books? their exercise books? you keep them. well frankly half of them don't have exercise books. well she's . they've got booklets. we have booklets, we have all sorts of things yeah, right, but but but if i'm if kids are giving me work first thing in the morning and i've got them in the afternoon they're gonna expect it to be marked! lunch time back on from aberdeen . make yourself available . er tomorrow and er thursday are even more critical than today when we actually haven't got any hard of hearing members in today. er i don't th when i tested it, it doesn't affect the hearing aid. doesn't no, but the point if that was being contemplated and today we get away with it but we wouldn't get away with it tomorrow or thursday. well the only think which erm, which erm i i and i said look this er system because no way . before before the meeting proper may i refer you to first of all the voice amplification system is currently working but er there are some difficulties with it and it may during the day deteriorate to a state that it is more trouble than it's worth. in which case the er calculated very kindly brought in a system mikes so, so be warned of that please. secondly i did write to all the members of the council about the issue of the british national corpus and their desire to have a record of english as she is spoke and their is a gentleman from here today, if you would care to stand up to identify yourself please. yes. who i have no doubt will be very happy to discuss with members during lunch break what what the project is. o k thank you. confirm that the minutes of the twelfth of october are correct . yes i just wondered if i could ask mr er if it was item nine page seven yes, its item nine erm row five and its about a report being brought to the committee on trans proportion policies relating to public transport by extending free transport to school children and students beyond the statuary obligations of the council. er i just really wanted to know when that's likely to occur. . oh i don't think i'm able to give you a specific answer. erm will question . . there are 2 petitions on the agenda but the one will be taken with item 2. i therefore call upon , chairman of the village association, to present a petition about traffic at . mr chairman councillors, ladies and gentleman as chairman of the village association i am pleased to present the following petition which has been signed by 174 residents representing over ninety five per cent of the . we the undersigned being the residents committee for hertfordshire county council bring forward and promptly carry out plans for the through the village especially in view of the notorious and dangerous traffic conditions and designation of the a four two five one through the village as the southern entrance to from the a forty one bypass road. mr chairman, the traffic problem has been with us for many years as our village existed before the motor car. the old a forty one trunk road just grew up through our village erm and erm just exists. we now have a splendid new bypass road for which thank you very much, the only problem is that it has halved the traffic but doubled the speeds. erm our problem can be summed up in one word, 'accidents'. the major cause of these accidents is drivers going too fast for the road conditions that exist in our village. there are two different areas of these accidents, one the driveways of the various village's some of which are blind erm with no pavements and also the four minor roads which junction onto, onto the main road in the village. in section 1 of two hundred metres of road we have counted over twenty six accidents, people coming out of the drive, parking cars and this kind of thing erm in the last five years. these are accidents that did not involve personal injury but involved er physical damage to walls, cars, gates, driveways etc., with cars coming down the road. now, i'm not an expert in modern traffic calming measures however er i believe we have experts on the council er in these matters but i believe that by narrowing the road and perhaps giving us pavements because one of our problems is that we have not got a continuous pavement through the village, and it is necessary to cross the road four times in some cases to walk from one end to the other. erm and possibly the installation of mini roundabouts at the minor junctions erm would give us quite a lot of benefit. see what has been done in kings langley and apsley for something similar, on a similar scale, for ourselves. thank you for listening to me. please give us some expert assistance . thank you. thank you very much for that and er . there has been no other business items and the same for there's been no questions either. before item one, i'd like to propose we break for lunch as near as one o'clock as business allows. for the convenience of the members of the public i intend to take item five by erm statement. one or two members who are resident in st albans did ask me about their position on item two st albans transport study er the advice that i gave them was that unless they er did which is likely to be affected by any identifiable schemes in the study they do not have a need to declare either a pecuniary or a non-pecuniary interest. we now move onto item one. hand over some questions at the end of each section i will then ask each spokesman to present their budget. thank you mr chairman. er you will all be aware i think that the budget has been running for some months and er i suppose a lot of you either as spokes persons or as members of groups have actually been dealing with the budget issues in some detail. therefore, i don't propose to take a great deal of time going through this report. you will also have heard er in the question earlier about the fact that there are references to budgetary issues both in the minutes of the last environment committee and also in the county council on thirtieth of november which did refer specifically the fire service review and also passenger transport. in terms of the process erm we are the first er major service committee to consider its budget for next year and i think everyone will be looking at us to to set a pattern for the rest of this week. erm what will happen is that we will er hopefully at this meeting er set a budgetary, budgetary position within the guidelines required by the policy committee and then that will go forward together with all the other service committees to the policy committee on the twenty seventh of january and from then we will go on to the county council on the fifteenth of february. the the committee itself erm the report itself is structured in that it takes you from the starting point of this year's ninety three, ninety four resource budget. it then proposes and suggests some certain technical adjustments and makes allowances for previous policy decisions and losses of income etc., and leads you through to er being able to propose a package measures within the policy committee guidelines. table one on er page three er which refers to mostly to f appendix one,er of seventy three point nought million pounds or ninety four-ninety five er moving to seventy two point eight million in ninety five-six. and seventy four point two in ninety six-ninety seven. as i've said the policy committee guideline was that we should set a budget within the range seventy two million to seventy three point three million, which means at the lower level, if you go for the lower level er to which says for ninety four five about almost exactly a million pounds. if you go for the higher limit, then that allows you to go with the growth of approximately three hundred thousand. the following pages er then describe the budgetary changes commentary on a number of and i don't propose to go through them individually. except i think just to emphasize one or two minor issues but the savings from last year, that was the underspendings from ninety two ninety three were, as you recall last year er used to support this year's budget er those savings underspending are no longer available and therefore have been taken out of the consideration the staff costs for t s g schemes that are mentioned at the bottom of page five erm, the programme this year which is actually listed over the page at table two does erm indicate that erm we are now contemplating link road and bypass next year and staff available are needed to complete that work or fortunately we've been able to secure a start on which enables some of the staff to be transferred to work on that scheme. moving on then to the capital programme erm which is summarized in table two on page six and er go into that in detail in the two. at the bottom of page six, top of page seven i think that issue there requires a resolution from you in that we have, the officers have suggested that we spend er six hundred thousand pounds out of the minor works budget on those four schemes but we should reserve the remainder of that minor works budget for approximately and er that report should be put to the march committee. paragraphs last five er and six er identify identify the number of options for, for change which allows you to er determine the authority budget and to either go for growth to within the overall particular areas, savings in particular areas, or to make switches of resources between services or within services. one or two of the items of growth particularly have been er identified as illustrative which may mean that you can choose er almost any amount you like er to be spent on those particular items just identify er a figure which you may consider the starting point. and als also mention some of the, some of the items do have staffing implications and if you resolve to increase expenditure in certain areas, such as traffic problem. that will require additional staff and we need to er look at that afterwards to see what effect that has on the er staffing budgets. there are also some there which er can or cannot at your discretion for more than one year er terminology now being used about recurrent not recurrent expenditure, it's up to you except where we are, you are resolving to recruit staff or reduce staff erm, it would be useful to have an indication from you as to whether you wish the money to be erm carried through until next year or whether you can see it as a one off. just picking up on an item on page fourteen about the externalization programme that obviously is going straight through the process er and should be resolved in the next week or so. picking up the staff costs there was some concern about putting that in there because we were awaiting the result of the t s g settlement. that settlement has now come through you'll see the details in the papers er but we also want to have regard to the fact that the award for the and bridges has actually been reduced substantially by thousand pounds the total reduction in that area approach one point five million pounds. page sixteen structural maintenance of local roads erm i know that there is some possibility that er groups will propose an increase er a reduction in in that area and to increase the contribution from the management reserve fund. if it goes as high as an additional half a million each year then the structural management fund will not last through the three years. need to be aware of that. the paragraph eight budget monitor does require also a resolution in relation to carried forward from underspending this year. you will have erm before you on the sheet a number of resolutions from the groups in relation to the budget and although the motions haven't been put, i'll just refer you to a statement which i produced which seems to compare the compare the motions the draft motions from each of the groups. er from which you will see er three entirely different packages, proposals, and er why why this was achieved. one of the at the end of this meeting can i just make the point of clarification in what said there, that as far as staffing additional works spread through for example we are assuming that staff costs are within the figures you are looking at and the the work that was referring to was was after you made your decision to will need to take some element of that cost into the start of the budget there is no staff figures that would occur after you've formalised this budget we are not aware of so there there will be . i can then take questions i think er answer any questions that you might have . mr can i just ask the erm about the i think it's very that he's produced this er so that we can look across and make sort of comparisons between the proposals of the groups. erm presumably we are talking here next year, talking about sort of years effects, and i just wondered what would be the effects that in general terms if we were looking at the full year effects? erm all the figures there are as far as i know full year effects, so there are no half year effects. those different effects in following years in relation to we got. er this er james can i ask you erm if we could establish what the stage er the next stage remain unspent probably er so that we the er paper indicates er er schedule of balance of a thousand pounds . chairman to that question are rather caused forgive me if i to answer that question. er members will recall that the potential savings that might from the original was something in the order of eight to nine hundred thousand pounds and of course the majority of those er present the saving will be policy will be consideration. erm i'm not at all certain quite er what will come out of that policy and what savings there will be at the end of that exercise. this report does touch on if i find the paragraph speak. thank you, does touch on that issue and refers to the point that i made earlier that that the proposals having been referred to that policy and how it meets with er more work. i'm not saying i can give you a figure, all i can say is that originally identifiable will not be forthcoming now because some of this proposal is not meeting them. er er rejective the issues requested by the earlier policy. i am sorry i can't be any more help with that at this stage what i can do is to take that question away and circulate the information after i've done some sums. discussion with the chairman . the chief officer don't quote me by it embarrass er i've had with carried out on a larger sum other than that available. at worst. are there any more questions? i am concerned in seven two as eventually savings. while we are talking about the reassured that we not going to be dealing with the position of . was that er question environment ? i'm sorry chairman, what am i being asked? forgive me chairman erm i actually question . i do apologise, i do apologise yourself order i see it's been placed on the early question question again? chairman i asked you item seven two when the talking of laying and reassurance that this will not include the of the above. which is certainly right . seven two er refers to planning environment er and not to and also refers to a type of actually . since the confusion environment issues erm, three minutes perhaps the questions can be answered at the . i can say that erm none of the bonuses that currently exist within the fire rescue service are included upon so no determination has been made about as yet and therefore upon that are not included in these calculations. are there no further questions? i will pass you over then to erm mr to make a presentation. chairman of my all of the offices or er tremendous amount of work which has gone into the local report to the committee, er but also to the tremendous amount of work which has been done behind the scenes which i know has been going on with er that is quite good for the officers erm looking at the budget er i in the line with what actually saying for them. i would like to move erm er the grant most of this on the er the order of make up erm both with one to eight. erm and although i will briefly go through some technical ones erm motion number two to erm er because it's in relation to growth savings that we have the differences between the budgets and which are actually being er proposed and er i suppose we do need to to go through number six carefully as well about structural maintenance funds. er we actually need to withdraw from but i think in relation to the other business about the erection of the i think that essentially routes are agreed without er without so perhaps it's structural erm maintenance . erm the the first er labour motion is really still a technical one . quickly go to to number number two. l it's presenting the changes for the next year er are really so we can have a two way and a two big. er two ways essentially erm the labour see erm for next year. we are operating within a of because of the government this council is erm nett cuts of all its services of four point two million reduction of four point er two million and the policy system . er to look at the budget for ninety four to ninety five in ranges of seventy two million to seventy three point three. the seventy two million erm for this committee is the labour that would involve roughly er nett savings of about one million er pounds because we and no doubt all the routes of course have to look at the social budget and where their priorities are and in order for us to er do other things perhaps indication in relation to and also will provide primary school er budgets. we do need to be looking essentially about budget of two million pounds erm for this particular er committee. what the is saying to of er of savings is that in the appendix four summarises the possibilities for savings for next year. erm the labour group is prepared to accept all of those,accept, one er exception er related relates to item number twelve so that is the information the planning and environment erm in parliament. er now we think that is absolutely er essential and that should have a serious effect on information services. very much but we think it important that you . erm if you look at what we are proposing, planning and environment in terms of er in terms of to say that in fact various significant costs budgets for for next year's. very much the view of of this group that we have an excellent planning and environment department service led by a distinguished er director and say that . erm and we would very much er long to see work that department does erm continuing er also be continuing er beyond actually . so its taking quite a . the other exception to accept the erm the the savings identified as possibilities relate to item thirty structural and maintenance of of the roads we could make a cut of of half a million. erm we are saying that we certainly couldn't go that far, maybe two hundred thousand but we would want to put it back so you will have an equal there in terms of spending. from the structural maintenance i think all members who remember before they start er structural benefits that we do have this backlog twenty six and a half million pounds of work. we're not talking just about roads, we're talking about what we call technically, i've thought about what everybody else calls pavements. er now these are more important asked about so i think we should be very clear on it before er we reduce spending . in terms of growth that we actually want erm unlike i think perhaps one of the we don't want to put all our eggs into erm one one basket erm one million pounds in terms of er of course we want to do that the income of the budget which is actually feasible and practicable er in terms of of i take it that as where it says the liberal democrats are going from a growth of a hundred and fifty million erm on town centres that there probably was an error . in terms of transportation growth. erm want to see expansion in half a million there. passenger transport in order to promote the new transportation erm policies of the to get off the ground erm during the erm previous council. seriously do need to put erm into the passenger transport . town centres er we think there should be growth of two hundred thousand, it's not enough. erm we are still not going to enough we we need something like just over half a million to do all the schemes er which er and we could do next year and this committee is going to have to decide there, which er town centres are actually going to be done and which are going to be erm left out. . in terms of planning growth erm right take orders item number four erm, this is really just a correction because attendance for fifty nine should actually be fifty. erm and in terms of rights of way er growth orders we would like to see growth of two hundred about two hundred pounds. this route must be taken very seriously er rights of way, planning investigation for the environment which as i did problems the other sources in terms of right of way, in terms of unresourcing rest of the backlog giving instructions in terms of. they're all underfunded you've got to report we need to actually er the rest of that so that's very er important . noticeable notice that our our growth er,items er six and seven additional enforcement officer er officers for countryside protection, er we can actually like to do that and i'll just come on to that in a moment when i get to two b but also in terms of growth er this group wants to see ten er whole time fire fighters, additional whole time fire fighters erm we won't get better in terms of confidence though fire engine survey this year but we we'd rather sort of form . that the home office er er and chief fire officer not for the first time er this year but in previous erm budget. er originally one twenty additional whole time fire fighters to be go. fire fighters . er we feel that it's very important that we do have an additional ten so that er what before next day to royston and initially on a temporary basis erm for at er er watford so we address the problems in those areas. erm trading standards er european community union erm is putting up more and i think most of us would say that in this area are to be welcomed . growth of eighteen thousand . if i could chairman erm just a little bit erm about the erm conservatives erm proposals. erm what the conservatives are going to do is they do what's in a sort of er is going for very considerable cuts in the budget of this erm . they are not going to support erm ten additional er fire fighters. they are not going to do anything to the rights of way in spite of what they are being asked to do by the well it's very, they are talking about er other issues up to they are talking about the workforce and of the erm the the report from the and er it seems that they don't really want much to programme forward which i have put for next year very structural maintenance of the and i what the services are actually doing, they have lost council probably say that they are out of control. erm and their approach seems to be where we're not going to be able to get our budget through. erm let let's sort of cut or let's go without our saying erm we will keep you off the council . well it ain't going to work because for a part that have slammed v a t on domestic fuels and in fact if all of the cuts of the conservative government, all the tax increases you have quoted cuts. it actually amounts to an increase of ten p in each government, it it's various years so i hate to sort of say, ah well council taxes cuts will be a bit lower er with the conservatives going to be an argument which is but halfway to equal counties so i think we can sort of discount really what the conservatives say but i will say the liberal democrats are to be. erm we which is actually putting forward a budget which is responding to what the policy committee asks us to do. er it said produce seventy two to seventy three three, so two produces a budget of seventy two million in two b you can see but you will see in two b that we are actually saying you can have an actual sort of implemental approach which will take you up to three billion. erm you will notice that er halfway through which is after item five, er i have actually done the sum because it comes to sort of half er half a million, er and it's . what we're saying to the liberals, you know, well sort of have a look at this, look at what we're sort of proposed . because we know what we want to go beyond . we would be amenable to er friendly amendments, erm of er er we know you wondered what more instructive perhaps we do . because we don't fuss, we don't the balance public transport, rights of way, traffic calming, erm er er and so on. erm so who do we put into the suggestion of perhaps you will look at that with a very serious and maybe sort of er or by to take seventy three million. in terms of which you better if we could do that erm, if we could do that. i went to look because most of for five erm and we all agreed on er technical and er . number six er what this is basically saying is we want to do two point history structural maintenance erm fire drill but anything that's been taken out of this budget in that area, we should replace by from that . thank you very much mr is that er . thank you. we now pass over to charles . thank you erm well that was a very interesting introduction usual political statements there are many of interest to this county council and its services, erm their worth repeating as part of the time just to to add to the with the labour party er for us prices. . . conservative party, i listen to you . the whole essence of conservative party that's put before the environment committee today and i remind us that it was only in a very short few months ago that this council might be at cuts of up to twenty million pounds in order that low in the very country . and er can can we scrape away to say chairman that er, you know this, this, this situation er it is not to do with government policies, we are paying a very heavy price to this country for world recession as we have paid this very high price, very very large amounts of money that had to be used for people who are unfortunate enough to fall out of employment. we have, we are also paying for the very very high price for that er and so it at where we look at , the money we are proposing to spend er in the future that we are grouped in that direction and that's the, that's the er budget today. erm i don't need to go through er all of the elements er er i will take it because there is general agreement er er with a very large and this is good to see that all of us er in all three groups are proposing to take advantage of savings identifying in the various departments county council. erm i would like to say a few words about the fire and rescue service, er the fire cover review panel er which rests erm with couple of months before christmas er it's first meeting, received a report from the chief officer that in restructuring the fire service to get better use out of it to er spread the cuts could find savings of up to nine hundred thousand pounds in that process and they are friends in the labour, liberal democrat groups have simply taken the good aspects of that the plus side of it and rejected the side what faces the side anyway. . in other words they are being totally unfair in that process and as a result of this more people are likely to suffer as a result of fire council and savings which are clearly er is proposed er that is conservative review that we should not be using new money or money within the environment budget which is better stretched for all the other services, to find that other fire fighters as much as we agree they are needed when clearly there is another pot of money which was available for this service and which the other two groups have decided they will take and so this group is prepared to addition fire fighters which will give us er more consistency in cuts we have chairman of their meeting er er a number of months er during the past year when we are by home seventy five. i have no doubt that we could around that figure but the chief officer rightly believes and indeed her majesty's inspector rightly believes that we are operating too much technology most of the time. er the other fire fighters would enable us to hit that target on a regular basis and in fact we will also the target during those periods when . er so we are all very keen to see this get these extra fire fighters but as he hasn't identified the source for which they could pay more, this believes that fifty thousand pounds which slices , there is a good way of doing it and suggest that that's the way we should do it. erm in terms of rights of way we are very concerned indeed as a group er the rights of way and this purpose we have identified er an additional fifty thousand pounds in which we hope will help . er to advance er i'm sorry to produce the problems er erm we cannot this time for large sum of money which er the labour group in particular er want to provide in this area er to spend on rights of way. we believe that there are on a number of priorities er and this one does not seem quite as high er on our list as it does er on the labour. erm we are very concerned at these er in terms of traffic calming. the one thing that seems to be identified by members of the public er when they come here and address present erm petitions to us as they did this morning er they want in most parts, in hertfordshire . they want to regain the natural environments. they don't want their children to be underspread everytime they walk out . so traffic calming er is very very now er an agenda supports the general thrust of this county council road safety had national accolades er and so that is a very important element for us. it is also that the the maintenance of our road schedules continues to a very high standard and so we aren't er, we have to take er the money from that source er and i will be hoping that perhaps in this we may find that we do not need to raid that particular fund so that we may find sums of money from general purposes or whatever. er so we are concerned that that money perhaps future time so that we can continue to spend whatever money we are doing at the present time er to our roads. er passenger transport, er we have over the last three four years er taken sort of er in passenger transport . this has been done with very harmonic negotiations on contracts, er big operators er and our substantial savings. many of us would have liked to have seen the savings that were made, recycling of the passenger transport area. it was unfortunate that during this period of time there were a number of pressures er on us, not just county council for that money to be spent elsewhere and that money was er brought back to the centre and we distributed all of the the services . er on this occasion we would like to see some of the savings that were made recycled in the passenger transport area. er because this would support policies which er, this county council produce all last year. it's the usual transportation policy to have in general as . er and so think er not we should not just have a policy for the we should put some money towards it as well. so we would have an additional two hundred pounds. er trading standards continue to be under pressure er we ought to agree on that er and we i i believe we may not have difficulty er in achieving the additional value of this type of almost on an annual basis if we are short of the trading standards . er if i deal with the er sob sheet now chairman erm i move the resolutions on the conservative group er that er er the budget er of seventy one point three based on appendix four with the amendments table. erm there is an error in that we have included er at two in that we have added in a reference there to further additional meant that we have taken the budget earlier guidelines here three point three, we are not proposing to do that and therefore that should be deleted. . erm and items er six er it is now voted that that figure er should be point six million er from reserves er and the additional as we have said this to er our traffic calming proposals. er earlier question to have added er a further resolution at that's a hundred and fifty thousand pounds of identified savings from the fire recovery review panel be used to add an additional fire fighters updatable this be er general. it will remain that this will eventually er and we will in fact . er i move the i think mr is that before we set the . yeah before . may i ask you a question on erm, the main question on the sixth . chairman can i just clarify that we we're saying up to the erm what i've said in speaking was that two point one million beyond that what is actually in the budget erm which is . we wanted a neutral budgetary tax overall. there are no . thank you mr chairman, before i start there are erm a number of sort of type errors. fifty thousand and do not fifty million . erm the total on the savings side should be two point four three that is the erm the sheet that we have received this morning is correct and lastly i think number six so those points can be taken on board mr chairman i will start. first of all to thank the officers for all their hard work especially those who er staying until half past eight, nine o'clock last night who tried to to supervise . break budget ninety four ninety five. in doing so there are a number of people wish to see on what to do. firstly, we want to keep our policies and to start our committees. i'd like to . essentially we want to go to agreements concerned brilliant services in the county. the services that this committee provides are important. transportation policies for the county council through to last year. er this is . lastly we want to sort of clear up some of the mess that is made by the previous conservative registration . . well let's go through it. savings and the use of these quite a lot of priorities. our first priorities is to pay fire . we already s s a on the fire service. i've included every home office, home office standards by staking money on offices we will be doing so. on rights of way we want to we want to spend money on doing a sort of and we also want to reduce the backlog of work up. we want to spend some money on employ enforcement officer to stop happening again which is going to be so costly to this council. er how many other water boards are there. . i'll show you the standards light of recent legislation . we are seeking to increase public transport. in some ways information town centre management scheme but clearly we are seeking to boost that's the jewel in the crown. this will meet and let's put it into context thousand pounds per district but mr will put the money into production obviously and i think there's something talk about traffic economy road balance. i mean information is right to reduce the tax some . i mean we have heard this morning the petition. we have a lot of petitions from members of the public . this will go some way traffic . on a service . one hundred and twenty thousand in the last two years and what we're doing is putting some money into some sta stabilise the service. pounds but we are prepared to reduce spending by three hundred thousand pounds and what we seek is to enjoy problems . we agreed to a spending on capital statement, we do agree to spending six hundred thousand pounds for the much needed paper and look at the council rate monies spent later this year. why i wonder you say to be or not to be, . that is the question . well known this group set budget priorities and . . . does anyone wish to speak . er mr hudson . chairman can i set set . now . does anyone wish to speak interest . er mr hudson. chairman i'll get the ball rolling i suppose erm i have to deal with the ludicrous sh statement from county council now the savings, proposed savings on the fire cover review. what is actually suggested is that instead of not taking twenty eight fire fighters out in st albans, we do, having replaced that saving of twenty eight fire fighters with ten others. absolutely farcical suggestion. chief officer . the environment committee i was talking about this proposal at this meeting. the environment committee that i was talking about this proposal at this meeting. the environment committee had it's last last meeting by a majority vote, made a decision that the proposed reductions in service for the fire service sh er er should not be gone ahead with and that and that issues around the should be looked at again at the . middle of various further further further er further er discussions and the outcome will be reported to the next member of erm er the next meeting of the environment sub committee. er at the moment there are no savings identified and it seems to me that this committee needs to deal with the budget as it finds. it currently has a service within the fire service wh which costs a certain amount and we can't presume and i would, i suspect that councillor is is actually trying to do is to get in by the back door for cut that we will then be forced to to make the march march march committee well i hope that members of this at this this this committee would reject that er suggestion as it at the last meeting. but what's more serious is that one of the phrases that he used was more people are going to suffer in cover. now that to me is a grossly irresponsible statement to make and it is total rubbish. the position that was presented by myself and my colleagues at the last er er er at the last last er last meeting was to indicate a higher level of fire cover within the service that councillor wanted and the committees supported the view that we should have a higher level subject to further discussions of the fire of the fire . it's agreed that we should be looking at improving the standard in d risk areas etc etc etc etc but we should have a higher level of cover, not putting anybody into a suffering situation, quite the reverse that we would have an improved level of of cover within the county and the chief officer he's said this time and time again. the chief officer said quite clearly last er last time that the decisions were decisions for members and members came up with a view last time that we should not remove that whole time crew from st albans which was the one firm decision that was made at the last meeting and what councillor is now suggesting that we should take out those twenty eight whole time fire fighters and then try and give us ten back if we're lucky. it seems, it it it seems that to me that that's quite outrageous. if i if i if i could just er er er just move on on to a couple of other other other points i in in what's been said. clearly the traffic calming proposals for the liberal democrats is a very high figure by comparison to the others but there are traffic calming elements in the other item . that have been proposed in our own er proposals. in particular the issue of er can't find it now but the one on highways er where er er where where it where it quite rightly mentions the concern of the public about payments. structural maintenance er yes erm yes down the bottom i was looking down erm and and we are proposing a significantly lower er cut on both the the officers and proposal there that the other er er that the other er er that the other parties. that goes to all of us er er er and our safety at various calming er measures. er but calming is not the only issue er er calming is is important and we recognise that but it seems to me that with that you have to enhance reliable public transport. we have to see more people being encouraged to use the buses and not their own cars. if you simply put up but people still have to use their cars to get from a to b you're not actually improving the environment at all and it seems that adding added habits habits habits er it it seems to me that proposals that we have represented and which create improvement in a number of areas or reduce the cut in a number of areas will actually produce a much more balanced programme for nineteen ninety four ninety five. i would like to support obviously the motion that was a and it was moved . mr i know what is deficient. thank you chairman you will only agree concentrate on this business over traffic calming. er my reservations about the figures the liberal democrats put in, i think they will however, i think it is erm, the idea, i do get the idea that money is being thrown at the problem. the traffic calming measures, a lot of them take place in my constituency . some success, some are an absolute waste of . we have to look into the effectiveness of the . for example what sort of things that have been done. in one there which does serve pupils taking er the largest school in the county, there were fourteen accidents the year before road cuts were introduced, in the year since they have been introduced there have been none. however, the we have recently had to incur extra expenditure because the road that were put in looking at one hundred er er were found to be too high especially for the services and er place er committee which er throughout that it was very difficult but apparatus you know moving fire . these have now been reduced but they should be put in the first place. there is another example when er er safety bars be put outside the school entrance er cast iron ones so obviously that would stop any entrance on to the pavement school. unfortunately the position makes them ideal for the kid to cut over and leap frog over, especially straight into the oncoming traffic and the er bearers . there are also a number of traffic put into er slow down traffic, being seen in many cases to be used as a target practice for people coming out of the pub on saturday night. er a number of and there's a further example which i have written to the county senior safety officer about er where there is a halt pedestrians coming on to a main road where a number of vehicles er bounce the pavements to get round traffic turning right at the junction. i was told there used to be a safety barrier there but it kept being knocked down so it wasn't of putting er safety barriers up there bollards . no i think you need to look into how we are spending the money on traffic calming. don't put this amount in yet, take balance our budget which looks upon things like passenger transport. a good way of traffic calming is to get more people to use public transport . erm let's no don't don't worry about the pot holes cut in structure licence budget. a cyclist going over a pot hole is a very dangerous situation and this should be looked into. so i would ask all to consider looking in depth at at at the traffic being taken. of course you want to see increased road safety, we're all concerned about it as residents and parents but just throw in one million pounds at it without knowing the effectiveness of it, i think is irresponsible at this stage. the only other point i make is reply to charles i have some sympathy to him charles in trying to defend the er the indefensible. probably got tottenham hotspur supporter, i think put . . erm but i get situations quite because the dire situation . i'm surprised you didn't trade unions to the dire situation. er you know paul . to be the single parents single parents yes. . no causes the admitting things like losing fifty billion quid on fluttering on foreign exchanges er mr did or flittering away the north sea oil revenue in tax cuts for higher earners rather than er keeping that er once in a life time er bonus that this country had for the north sea oil and also you could mention the increased pension for but it didn't match billions that have been wasted on defence expenditure especially defence expenditure and especially the trident programme. these points should be should be looked into but as i say i take my hat off to infer at least having been loyalty to defend the inquest. next question er mr . have the pleasure mr chairman, i too would like to erm home in on the subject of traffic calming as identified by the previous speakers and er i start with viewpoint that the liberal democrat case has been put in which is designed to attract a maximum profit without really thinking it through so in this way i do quite a strong martin said in the previous two speeches. to simply say to the public we are going to spend a million pound on traffic calming is downright irresponsible and this . it is true that there is an increasingly which we see it erm as in this council form petitions to the council more members. there is a rapidly growing department of increased traffic calming. it often if not always involves children and schools and we've only to list the petitions that come in here to realise that. i would like to say that we should be concentrating on traffic management schemes which included traffic calming and take this i'd like to give you a few examples. i took the trouble in my own district to look into the subject because i could see the way the demand for less services. the pressure is immense, from the county council the current budget, i believe, is four hundred and twenty thousand for these and all of the groups incidentally i suggest increased . my group is suggesting they increase by five hundred thousand which is over a hundred per cent increase and i su i support this. i would also like to draw to your attention the which is not related to accident prevention and therefore within the existing criteria does not qualify for county council support,generally speaking. there is erm, i think you will find the district is very strong in support and for assisting and financing the schemes. they are a community in very strongly there is a risk through speaking. i believe that support this and i've already seen in my own district to traffic calming which never previously existed. a willingness members to use district plans to back up county plans and in some cases to actually fund county wants to approve them . according to this the current demands for traffic calming alone in the council could have could amount to between five and ten million pounds. i base that simply on what i know my own district county council's current budget. i suggest to you mr chairman that this subject has crept up on in the last two or three years and er it is in danger of overwhelming us. there is such strong demands and i think we really have to address this. i believe we should not only be looking at simple traffic calming, i believe we should be looking at er greater use of subsidised school transport and in fact transport called for a report and i gather going on right out. we hope to receive that too. i believe we should cooperate and i believe with integrated traffic management schemes, we can address this problem. therefore, i would see from a public point of view a substantial expenditure on this subject and i don't think necessarily a level cuts from county planners. thank you. mr no problem mr yes chairman i'd i'd . . i think that er we are probably some years of and therefore whilst we make indulge our service in the next few moments it each other er we are eventually and then perhaps going through a convenient route er and thrashing out some sort of profit margin. however, erm i would like to just add a few comments er i i found it very interesting in that er i would like to chastise the liberal democrats for throwing money problems, you know er in yorkshire, my grandfather came from yorkshire they have a saying you know that labour so there there any other party . erm reference was made er, however, by chris er and by martin er . chairman can i raise a point again, erm second time . chairman i have to but i moved conservative resolution and i am now the debate problem. . group to er the fire . can we absolutely be sure that the whole purpose of the fire fighters review panel looking at fire cover throughout the county of hertfordshire to see how long the various traffic changes er and changes to er er road structure and various other . county and see whether the family wish currently if it would not benefit from er er being carried er in certain areas and i do apologise for the chief fire officer if throw away to martin er in any way being thought of as no regrets i am sure. what i was trying to say that the for the fire fighter decision about was very boo'd upon to the professional advice of our chief fire officers and they have a good for eighteen months of how we are doing this fire fighting in hertfordshire. as things have changed round here, things are changing present time er which has so much, however, and there are other areas er just report will be reconsidered er and the right sort of er er area of cover er that we would wish to see and just cutting services, we're talking about improving resources from an area which is clear to areas where there is no further issue, or etc., etc., there is not adequate cover . er it's it was marked, i think, from the early discussion chairman that er watford, er would end up as a new fire station. st albans would end up fire station. er and between the liberal er liberal democrats labour if you support our proposal we'll support yours, will end up as a temporary fire station and . that's what we got out of chairman and is that nine hundred thousand pounds of by simply modifying er the fire do will have provided that substantial sum of money completely reorganise review of the fire service er it would have er brought this other ten fire, whole time fire fighters etc., etc., and these savings because of the of those two groups over there we have to identify it's stage, put them on the table and then be very prudent in the way this is really the . er er really to to precipitate on traffic calming really it's going over the authorities, over . rights of erm fire so many people in front of me at the moment i . er i was told by my colleague. erm reply to er most, because that's the second time . i think we all today . here, here, here. i must bring your attention to standing order c a matter in hand. well the point chairman is that mr moves the conservative he's now been allowed to er speak again. er i was aware that the so i am taking that summing up speech . referring to council treadmills and not the actual committee .. what we just . we just move this argument be here all day. . that he's a member of the er committee bench, he should be allowed to . well i'm, i'm the chairman carry on so to carry on . i just called on announce what in this case so i know what mr said first time round. we with erm about savings his side is made in public transport. erm i great exception to that because the savings on his side may be public transport has been at the expense of the workers in public transport and the people who use public transport. here, here. i am very much, very greatly concerned by the traditions in bus garages and to the facts that er workers are out of work being their position at work be very considerably worse off. also i am not happy about the state of maintenance on vehicles. er also feel that the people the companies are not making services actually got because they were against these making go out in the evenings because the last bus leaves the town centre at six thirty. erm you know they're not interested in services that actually meet with these of people,like people that want the buses and i really take great exception to on the on spending less money on public transport er not but also work place . . take it mr chairman. firstly,i want to congratulate the . they put in eighty thousand into their proposals that deal with the planning we have hole on my pouch, well done, but on the other hand you are not prepared to spend twenty five thousand on an important obstacle plan to stop this sort of mess er er arising. brian told us that he was going to deal with those matters he didn't, he didn't build, he left out planning enforcement twenty five thousand and with the countryside thirty thousand. surprise, surprise, relatively small sums of money which will help an overall problem particularly with minerals enforcement. for minerals enforcement, we have a a habit of my patch and up until now the minerals companies have run rings round our officers because we haven't got sufficient staff in our department. mr chairman, martin forescored on charles suggestions that we may be able to finance savings in the fire salary recovery review. that fire cover review is not yet completed. this committee has rejected quite a large proportion of the officers proposed statements. i'm very sorry about that because i believe that that money could be better spent within the fire service on other matters to provide a much better service to the general public. don't alter that, that's been rejected but still on the table mart martin failed to mention our certain issues. i won't go into them today if i did possible savings. i did confirm that with with steve our legal officer but there is still a proposed saving on the table of two hundred and fifty thousand pounds. now is it not they'll ask you, reasonable to recycle some of those savings and surely regain the into the provision of those ten fire officers that the service so badly needs for a number of years now the fire inspector's report has identified the confidence levels as we in our service. i believe that that the savings can be made within the fire service to do just that. i wanted to go on just to say, to address one other subject and that's traffic calming, traffic calming is a very important aspect in our rural areas and indeed in our towns. there is tremendous demand for both parish council, both tran county councils for traffic calming in their villages. they want to see vehicles going slower through the towns, quite right, we put in half a million extra for this but i'm disappoint with labour's negative attitude. only three hundred thousand. mr goes on to say what is wrong with what's been done so far. totally negative approach, of course if you start to do a programme which we haven't been involved in some mistakes will be made but we should be positive and look forward to see how we can avoid the mistake we've been making in the future. not be critical and unpleasant about everything that's been done in the way of traffic calming. i think mr chairman that the r the budget that has been put to all by this side of the house should be supported and i sincerely hope that er we will get support from others in this council chamber. thank you mr we will now go on to. thank you very much mr chairman. i merely hope that i will not be a charles talking about the fire cover again for today and er perhaps in future times for the simple reason that it is one thing to make a budget, it is one thing to do a . it is one thing to draw money from the public in terms of council tax and it's another thing to spend it in the way you intend to do it. and it's quite obvious charles . win the election in may. . the form that came to the officers was a conservative instruction that you were to produce a fire cover showing their fire cover idea and procedures saving money and that was the one which was thrown out. we are going about it the proper way and er nevertheless it will be assessed and costed at the end. now in the same way over the four years when you are in overall control of the council you suggested that conservative money, the of council tax to pay for public transport but you never spent all the money on public transport, instead of which you on as you admitted which will be used in other directions but your last budget about when you worked at er yes . well where i was born in needham market mm. need i say where because i, i can't day. i don't oh, i see. the people to know you was born here then? i was. ah, right well let's say you were born in the house you live in well you could say without act without actually saying where it was. that's right, yes. you don't often get that nowadays. no you don't. because er i naturally i went away to work but er i was born here and er you see and, and wh what else did you want? where were you born, because you must be one of the oldest residents in needham? yes, i, i was born in this house but er i don't wish people to know er because er this is a funny world, i, i don't know whether that's being recorded i expect yes, it will all be dow that will go down on because er well i er i, as i and i've got young neighbours who i very seldom see because they are out at work er therefore i am quiet and that's how i like to be yes. an. er erm, well i mean we, we live in a strange world mm, it's all very different to when i was young. yes, yes. what did your father do? oh my father was a shoemaker. really? yes and he worked in the high street and er he what would you say suppose that's the proper word. he lived down gypsy lane with his two sisters, he was a single man you see and my father and mother lived here and my, they not only mended shoes but they made them and er course naturally, you know, well of course needham wasn't as big as it is now but they made them for the best people, if that, if that's the right, not the right expression say, but er but you know what i mean er and er and he, you know, all his life you see he did that and then one day he had a shock because his er, what would you call him colleague, he, he died suddenly in the night. so my father said what shall i do? i said, well just carry on and so he used this er workshop at the back. the black and there was all cement drawn and everything and we had a big table in there and he just carried on he didn't make shoes and he died when he was er, well he had a bad stroke and, and he was in the other room for seven years. you see they didn't do things then that they would have done today, you see, seven years and you see i at that time, well i used to used to have a day off and instead of having a half day a week we used to have full day a fortnight and so of course on my day off i came home to see what i can do to help, you see and er my mother died. my father died in nineteen forty six and my mother died in nineteen fifty seven. well my husband and i were married in nineteen forty four, you see, and er as you see i go every year and it's nineteen eighty six, so therefore erm i you see i, i don't really want people to know my age mm. you see because living here like this and er i mean, i mean only yesterday i heard of an people burst in the door and this old lady on the head and where's your money and that sort of thing, you know, so it it's really terrible. mm. it's a lovely world, beautiful world but it's the people in it you see who are spoiling things so much and i don't understand youngsters you see but because young people erm there, there was a time when youngsters just er do just as they like and they weren't reprimanded by the parents, whereas my parents were very strict you see and it didn't do me any harm and i'm glad now that they were. we were brought up nicely to go with my father who used to sing in the church choir. they haven't one now. well i was sent to the erm united, well it wasn't a united reform church then but it was called the chapel and i was sent to there, to sunday school there, mornings and afternoon and we went two by two across to the chapel, you see, so while my father, we used to walk down the street together. he went to church and i went to the chapel, you see. so he sang in the c of e church, church of england? oh yes and there were eight choir men, you see, well no choir at all there hadn't been for years, you see so er and i had a photograph somewhere of my father with eight choir men, you see,and er well after that did they have a, did they have a band or anything in the church or did they sing without music? er well they've got a piped organ there and er oh someone plays the organ yes. an old gentleman from stowmarket, his name's mr i'm sure it was because er, you see, my father and i used to go up stowmarket road sometimes after church or chapel and er and go for a walk up there and used to meet this mr who played the organ stowmarket and very course but erm but i had a wonderful life really mm. and then, as i say when i was sixteen well erm when i left needham school, you see, i passed through. i missed several classes because they put me up in, for instance i, when i came up from the infants to the big school i missed the first standard and they put me into standard two and i went from two, three, four, five, six, seven and seven and i was only eleven, you see, so i did pretty well and then the headmaster came to my parents and said, why don't you let her go in for a scholarship to stowmarket secondary and so i went in for that and er there was one other girl went as well, there were two of us and erm, and of course we only heard during the summer break and er we passed. now this other girl came down one saturday morning and we had a letter to say that i'd passed and i said well, so have i. we did so hope that we'd both pass, you see, because, you know,been terrible how old were you when you passed that scholarship? well i i was eleven but by the time but i had a birthday, you see, er in the summer and er er well august actually and so when i started at stowmarket i was twelve, you see, and er and er i was at stowmarket school and scholarship for four years and er well i don't know whether i really liked school, did you? bits of it, not all of it. no that's right, as i say but erm anyway then after that when i left at say sixteen, you see, er er er a friend of ours who was a railway clerk at needham station came and told us that they were taking on girls on the railway company and would i like to do it and so of course i had to pass exams and er actually, can i read some notes that yes oh this er when i said er i was just looking through again because last night i sat up late writing these and then i got in a muddle and i was so tired i was, because it's my eyes you see mm. i can't see very well yes and of course i can't see anything at all without my magnifying glass without your yes i know i'll read this first page mm. and, and erm i put after leaving needham market school, i won a scholarship to stowmarket secondary school for four years. then i was told that girls were being taken on the railways so i had to go to ipswich and take two more exams and started work as a booking clerk at needham station when i was sixteen. i learned how to use the single needle telegraph instrument. well now i don't know whether you know anything about that but it's a make words. morse code is it? oh yes er yes code yes then i had to learn that and er, you see, and i can still do it because i know n d n d n d and they keep answering that. i know it's, i knew it was needham station and it was between station to station, you see, not er anything to do with the public but that's where i learnt so we used to er take er messages from station to station and i used to speak to the girl at merrith down the line. she was also the stationmaster's daughter, you see, and we used to talk to each other telephone you see and erm, well that's as far as i've got now. i hope you're finding it this is just what i want to hear. oh oh well, yes, well of course er i kn i know about take two more exams and er i know the second one was mental arithmetic. mental arithmetic and reading and i also had er er take an eye test because they said if there was a train accident and i couldn't see the signal whether it was red or green or whatever, you see, you never know. so i had to take an eye test, i remember. erm and er oh yes, er no wait a minute i had and take two and started work as a booking clerk, i've said that before at needham station when i was sixteen. i learned how to use the single needle pantograph instrument, sending and taking messages from station to station. issuing tickets and taking in parcels. the parcel door was the other end of the office you see and er oh i loved it, i loved the work i really did. i took early and late turns with the chief clerk, you see, and er well there were two lads who did a middle turn but i needn't mention that, but they did a sort of nine to six you see mm, and you would do, which turns would you do? you'd be early and late early early and late. how early? seven o'clock in the morning at seven o'clock till four, i think it was and then er it would be two till ten, you see, but the stationmaster was always about just in case i was late er you know, not there by seven. to book out the seven ten train. so he was always always there and such a kind man he was and er yes chief clerk. the clerk whose job i took went on the district as a relief clerk and later relief stationmaster. i am talking about during the first world war, you see. i was there until the end of the first war, what some people called the great war, anyway, the first war that'd be ni and i was there until nineteen nineteen. well it was over in nineteen eighteen. however, i stayed a bit longer and when all the girls, all of us had three months' notice to leave, it was dreadful, you see, because we were fully trained by that time you see. but er, course i'm talking, i'm forgetting all this is being recorded. it's alright, don't worry about it. oh, you'll sort it out later on yes we'll sort it out don't worry. yes, and the girls had three months' notice to leave and on the last day at three months i heard that a young lady had left the post office. i went to see the postmistress and she said i've known you all my life, so start work on monday morning because, you see, it was so quick and i hadn't got my references back from the railway company but that's what she said er i can start work on monday morning. i enjoyed the work, issuing dog licences, gun licences and old age pensions and of course stamps. when did the old age pension come in? well i can't remember but my parents got it but when it first came in i can't remember the year but no. i was too young but it was about five shillings a week is that all it was? was that for a couple or single? no, i think, i think they got ten shillings between them. if i remember rightly yes but i can't. i have no idea of the date when it started but erm and of course it er anyway, it's better now thank goodness. erm whilst there i learn how to use another sort of telegraph instrument. when i was at the post office. er taking off and sending telegrams, you see, erm then i was told that the railway company wer were taking girls on again, so i applied and i had to go to ipswich to pass two more exams, you see, and er and started work and the in the catering manager's office at ipswich station as, as a clerk doing typing and general office work as the manager had to go on the district. every day to the ten refreshment rooms. so he was starting at chelmsford, witham, marks tey, colchester, ipswich erm bury st edmunds, newmarket er down so far, manningtree and er there were ten altogether. so what do y you prepare, helped prepare the food for all the trains? oh no i didn't do any cooking. you didn't? i was just in the office. aha. i was just in the office typing and er and general office work and while he went on the district you see. there was only the i was going to say but when they had w oh when i was in the i went to evening classes to learn pitman's shorthand. erm, i was at ipswich station for ten years mm. you see. now when they were busy and had important people in our dining room at ipswich, there was one, there were two waiters. er, one and another one who did, who was a waiter but part-time when they had somebody important in, which i think i've put down here, that one's finished with. but did that be for the staff catering? would that be the that you are talking about the canteen for staff erm well dining room? the dining room, oh yes the dining room i was that would be for the staff, railway staff? mm. oh no every er er ordinary customers. oh, i see oh, i see actually, it was actually at the station? oh yes different now when it, where it's just a cafe isn't it? i don't know i haven't been up for years. you don't, i mean they don't have proper dining rooms at all. don't they? no. oh. no, that's why i was wondering. oh goodness. there isn't at the station for the customers. yes. just like rolls now and a cup of tea oh my word, how it's gone down. well what sort of meals did you have to provide? well i can tell you. i've written it all down. oh really, oh good. yes i, you see, in those days it was quite different yes you see er what it's like now it was a large adjoining the, the, the large room, what they call the you see and over the, over the other, across the line, to the railway line there was another place called the down bar and the tea room adjoined. i don't know whether they're open no, not there? no, nothing like that there. i can't believe it, you see i thought things were still as they were. no, they're not. i think you'd find it hard to recognize the old railway station now. well every, you know erm i can remember the time er when i first went and they used to have silver er plated of course, silver plated water jugs on the counter and silver plated sugar bowls with tongs and loaf sugar for people to use and of course well and when you see the war came along, you see, they were all taken away because, you see, we had troop trains we were up day and night so the troops with tea. you'd get a message from the r t o the er railway transport office to say supply three hundred and sixty cups of tea at such and such a time and then of course the troops would the train would start, the troops pour out and pour into our place and there we were dashing around. i used to help of course and we were up day and night. i've got a, a photograph somewhere where we had this trestle table er on the platform and if you were the tea and of course the men had to stay o overtime, they didn't get paid for it and we, we it was a seven day week for us, we were never paid for sunday. it was seven days a week. we had every other sunday off, you see, but otherwise we worked and didn't get any extra for it but of course the girls like myself well erm we couldn't lift these huge urns of tea so they had two men keep them on, you see, and er, and we were er perhaps i know one day we didn't finish until five o'clock in the morning and we'd been up all night serving troops and er, you see, and then the manager said, well look er now and have some breakfast before we get th another telegram and we were next door to the telegram office, you see, and when, when the erm war, during the war, you see, the man would come out of the telegraph office and he would say er and er, you see, all the lights went out except a few lights along the back of the counter. then he'd come red and you'd know that a erm a bombing raid was imminent, you see, and er er when i look back you know, but as i say everything has changed so much. now that, you're talking about all the troops coming through. was it ipswich station? yes. and yet when is it, when were you working there because i thought you said you'd finished. you worked at needham during the war and then went to ipswich. ah, yes, well we after i left needham, then i went to the post office for a year yeah. which i told you yeah. but you see erm, well i wanted to get on yes. and i thought i can be here until i'm ninety, you know, yes, and not get anywhere. that's it mm. and so when i heard about taking on girls again, on the railway but they were still getting troops and bomb bombing raids? oh yeah, well it was during the nineteen fourteen eighteen war. oh yes, you see, they, i mean but i think that you were working then at ipswich, i thought you were just at needham. er ye well er, it was when, no let me think i went to ipswich, i did a till the first war ended. i see what you mean. mm. well, and i went to ipswich well it must have been just after the war then mm. but you see er, yes that's right and then of course i'm, since then i was up at cambridge and that was during the second year yeah you see, so yeah and er we used to have as i say er, well for instance i've been up in the office. if they had important people like er such as mark and his wife, the pianist, erm you've heard of him of course. well he, he, they were on their way to norwich but they stopped off at ipswich for a lunch, you see, and er i had, i looked after them, so, so that it shouldn't interrupt the other girls behind the counter or, or the waiter who was looking after his regular customers in the dining room, you see, er and so i used to erm and once i had i remember there was six black doctors came in and er and i was glad because it was nice to move about and instead of sticking in the office typing and then going out all alone, you see, while the manager was on the district, you see, i liked it and er anyway that was a long time ago. yes. so in the wa in the dining room, they had waiters as well? oh, yes. they had er his name was jimmy they had er well one used t one old gentleman used to be a yes and his name was jimmy , the waiter, that's right i, i get a, i have to think because i, i sometimes get mixed up and i'm at cambridge and you see it was a long time ago, you see, so, since i was young and i was then. well i can tell you i went to cambridge er on er the twenty eighth of december nineteen thirty one. well that's fifty, how long, well i daren't think mm. fifty years ago. yeah. you see and oh. that's a long time yes. i'm sure you don't want to hear all this i'm really interested about ipswich station just cos it's, it's so different now. yes. that they used to have waiters and tables with silver, plated silver oh, yes. and tablecloths er no they didn't have tablecloths, no, er in the dining room of course yeah, in the dining room. oh yes, but not in the ordinary er there was a huge place, where you could put tables all round the tables, you see, and, and er it was a and er i liked it,i, when they were busy, you see, i used to, especially if they had an order for these hundreds of cups of tea, er, you see, i used to go down and give a hand then, i used to like it, you see, somebody would give a shout and i would come down from the office and and left them anyway and then er i heard of this job. i thought well after ten years, i thought, well i want i still want to get on and erm so i heard of this job down at cambridge station as assistant manageress at the refreshment rooms, you see, and er it wasn't quite the same because er at ipswich, you see, although the catering manager's office er my work was office work and typing you know general thing and er because he was away most of the day, most days, because of er er the ten stations er from stretching as i say from chelmsford, witham, marks tey, colchester and er i think it was clacton and er and manningtree and er i think, i don't know manningtree and ipswich of course and er then er bury st edmunds and, and that's it and i am not sure whether you went to newmarket or whether to ca whether to cambridge now newmarket but er, you see, so the days went on and we worked every other sunday and of course i know things were a lot cheaper then but you see the pay wasn't, wasn't very good. no, how much would you have earned? well because i was in the office i got a pound a week, you see,and the, do you know the manageress there who, she was the manageress then sorry, i've got a photograph and she said that when she was manageress at colchester and she only got fifteen shillings a week i and the girls, that's, that's all they got fifteen shillings because i was in the office i got a pound and mind you we slept in, we had all our food, you see, and we had to all sleep in. where at the actual on the station on the station, at ipswich station on the station they have rooms? oh yes, upstairs, they're still there i expect i don't know. goodness. we slept there you see. so what you had your own room and well no i had to share a room with a, with a, i think there were five beds. four other girls, that's right and of course there were housemaids there to do the work and er yes housemaids and er and er you know and in the, in the kitchen, you see, there was the chef and er a cook, the kitchen maid and er a young man,a boy, well just left school to scrub the tables down and do the floors and that sort of thing and er and whi and er while i, of course i had to go down every day to type, to see what the chef said, what was on the menu and type it, type out the menus, you see, that was one of my jobs and er and if let me think, yes there was quite a number of staff, that's just in the kitchen mm. you see and ther i su i suppose there was about ten or a dozen girls behind the counter because it was early and late turn for them because you see we were open, you see, until ten o'clock at night, you see, and er then, well, anyway, after that erm i heard about this job going as assistant manageress at cambridge and er so i applied and the manager said to me, i thought well i'll be here ten years, erm i can be here until i'm you know, donkeys years and er so he said well look you may not get a job because he said that another girl coming from norwich to go to cambridge to see the manager as well as you and so you might not get it, she might get it, and, however, i went and er i, i met the manager and the manageress in the front office, the manager's office and we all had a chat but i didn't see the girl from norwich, she must have gone some other day and anyway i got the job, you see, and er, and so i went to cambridge as assistant manageress and i very well and i got to know all kinds of people, all nationalities being a university city. well it was a town then but since then it's been made a city, you see, and i got to know all kinds of people and one gentleman came in there, used to come every evening and write a book and er, i used to look after him if i happened to be that end and er, you see, and then he'd say, oh just an exchange you know about the weather and just in general thing and then i'd leave him and he'd get on with his writing and one day he said to me. when i've finished this book and it's published, i'll give you one he said you won't understand anything about it because it's all about electronics and electricities but he said never mind and, and he did and it's up on that shelf, er i've still got it . yes and never read it? well, er er er it's all on, well i couldn't understand it, he said, but he said i'll give you one because he said after all i wrote it here didn't i? you see, he was exceptionally nice and he used to lecture at the colleges and er he was a real, very nice gentleman and er and so he, of course he, he, he took his drink across to the table with him and sometimes i took it for him it just depend and he, he wrote this book and er i forget now, perhaps you would like to read and see what he says the second book down, it's with a mauve coloured book that one yes elementary technical electricity by samuel yes to miss ivy that was my name i married. with compliments and kind regards, robert samuel . yes. this was nineteen thirty eight oh, well there you are amazing see how i've saved it all those years. yes. you see yes extraordinary. it is isn't it? yes, yes. yes, yes he gave me one yes i thought you know when i retired and left cambridge i ought to bring that with me you see oh, yes. and of course, as i say, being at cambridge there was a little theatre there and er we used to see so many of the actors and actresses that used to come into our lives you see because there were five places on the station, for instance , there was the tea room adjoining the , there was a large kiosk,large kiosk one girl in there, you see, and er there was, then there was this large which is the biggest and then the dining room that, you see and er so and, and one year i, i wrote it down but erm, one year i remember we took forty four thousand pounds which was a lot of money and er, you see, well er i got on very well with the girls and you ran all this? you were in charge of all this? no not, not till the manageress, i was just going to tell you about that. the manageress there erm i was there and she, i, after i'd been there eighteen months, she had a heart attack and the girl took up her tea tray, one of the girls took up her, because she wasn't on duty till about just quarter to six to do the money. it was my job to go to all these various places and collect the money and take the numbers on the till and collect the money and put it in a bag, put it in the safe. that was my work, then when she came down on duty, she would sit one side of the table with her books and i would sit the other and count all the money, you see, then i would take this money er, in a bag, through on to the black through the, past the ticket collector and take it to the booking office and they took it from me and took it when they took their money to the bank, you see. well do you know sometimes i'd taken it through and perhaps a train would come in, a london train would come in and people were crowding through. we never thought anything about being mugged in those days, you see,and er and th that's what happened, as i say, so we took lots and lots of money, you see and er so you were a sort of assistant manageress ? yes but you see at this time the girl took up her tea tray and, and when she took, she knocked on the door and when she opened the door the manageress was lying on the floor foaming at the mouth, she'd had a heart attack. well of course she came running to me, you see, and we immediately phoned for the doctor, you see but, however, and i said, look, phone for the doctor, i said, and then i said go across to the railway police just across the yard and i asked one of them to come to me and i said i will go up with her and be with her until the doctor arrived, er he was with her the police sergeant when she died. there was me as well, you see, and there was nothing we could do and er she'd had this erm, it was awful, they took her to the mortuary because some of the girls, you see, erm, you know they went hysterical and er i'm not gonna pass her door, that sort of thing. er, you know, well of course they were young girls and er, you see and there's, there was nothing we could do, you see, and, and er, anyway the doctor, as soon as the doctor did come, it was because th the young staff er they had to, they took her away to the mortuary, you see and erm then i, i had to carry on with her work and, and do the best i could and mine as well, you see, but of course er the manager he appointed another assistant manager to go and collect the money which i used to do got it in because i took her times of duty as well and er, you see, and then after that er after several weeks i suppose it was, i don't know how many because i forget how many, that they appointed me as manageress and i was in that position for twelve years, you see and until you retired? until i re and, well until my husband retired at sixty and i thought well if he's going to retire at sixty, i might as well retire, you see. so when was that? so that er, that would be oh well he was a, he was a railway clerk er on the station at cambridge, is that where you met him? yes, that's where i met him. yes. he used to come into our place and erm, and er, i always knew when he was g every night, hale, rain, snow whatever, he was there, you see and he used to have his pint of bitter, no more or no less and er, you see and all his friends, there were six of them. all bachelors, stood along the counter, you see, and er they were all good friends and though some of them had, had retired, one had retired and we, well there most of them had retired because er my husband was fifteen years older than me and er yes anyway erm he, he, he retired, let me see, we married er when i was forty four, you see and erm he would then be, well no, yes he'd be just fifty nine, you see but nevertheless, we had thirty two years very happily married and so when he died, he was ninety one. yes and he was buried up at creeting you see. he was cremated and buried up at creeting in my parents' grave and that's what's going to happen to me, you see i will be cremated because erm, you know they make a sort of well and take off the top stone and the pebbles and things and er and then the ashes go in the and so in a casket don't they and you see and so we shall all be together. be together you see yes, yes. in my parents' grave. so when you retired you came to live here, was that it? well yes and er so after that, you see, when he retired at sixty. mind you he was, this is my husband. oh, i thought that might be him, yes. there, isn't he handsome? yes now he was a, oh, he was seventy one when that was taken. he doesn't look it. no. i mean he could be in his fifties. oh yeah, he doesn't look it. he's a very young picture of me when i was younger oh yes, yes but i forget how old i was but he was really handsome yes and so he was. so quiet and so well respected, he was so kind, you see, and so i'm grateful and of course before i married, you see, i, we used to have three passes. i had three a year and of course in between times you go we had quarter fare if we want to go anywhere, you see and er of course it was the old money in those days and i would come from ipswich to see my parents here for sixpence halfpenny then and er, you see, i used to go on holiday alone. now really as far as you're concerned er i could tell you a lot about our holidays we had. that's amazing that you went on holiday alone because surely you would have done much well you know i, i wouldn't do it now. no, no. i wouldn't do it now because i, ever since that, that woman was on the train was stabbed and thrown out, i wouldn't go alone on holidays now but in those days, well maybe i was a lot, course i was younger then but you never heard of such things but yo it sounds as if you were a very independent person. oh i was. yes. oh i was and i used to go, and the first place i went to, let me think, it was dunoon. i wanted to go to scotland and i remember i came to say goodbye to my parents and that was in the evening and i went by train to liverpool street and it was pouring with rain and i had to make my way, i had a taxi across to euston, you see, and er and i went up th the left side of the country, see, past carlisle and and then across and across and then and to greenock er er to dunoon, you see. how do you spell that, i can't think of the name. dunoon? yes. er it's er d u n double o n isn't it? oh, yes, yes of course it is a scottish place oh yes, it's in scotland, you see, and whilst there, you see, every day er because a lady laughed at me and she said, she was staying in the same hotel and she said er i, i used to book up in advance of course but never took a chance. i used to book up in advance and i thought oh go to dunoon, you see and er i got a free pass, so i went and erm she said talk about a holiday, she said you soon you've had your breakfast you're off. i said well that's what i came for. so what did you do when you up and down the lochs. yes up and down different ones, different loch and er you could see inveraray castle in the distance we, er after we married we went to inveraray castle, went over it how old were you when you went, first went to dunoon then? oh goodness, well you must have been in about in your mid twenties? er well i started going for a holiday by myself when i was about er what when i was sixteen because it's then i started to get these free passes and i had a sister then who lived at rye and i had never been across london so the next door neighbour came with me to see me across london er because i was so young you see and i said right as long as you show me across london i can come back alone, you see, and so i came back alone and i, that's when i started, so from sixteen and er and as i say i went to cambridge in the nineteen thirty one, it was the last day of well say nineteen thirty two, you see, and, and also in the twenties i was going on holiday alone and i went to once er to the isle of man and when i was er i, i sat next, well being by myself, you see, they put me in, to a little table near the wall. i booked up in advance of course. they put me by a table er near the wall but it for a table for two and then another lady came by herself, i remember her name was miss and erm and she said, have you been here before? i said, no, and she said oh i have lots of times, i only live at manchester, you see, and of course, you had to go by boat you see, and i caught the boat train from ipswich at eight o'clock in the morning and i got to manchester at lunchtime about one and then went on to liverpool and the train there took us almost down to the docks. well of course when i went to the isle of man, see, i went on the boat and er, you see, and er it only cost me ninepence for a, a landing er for the landing stage. i had to save ninepence because i had these free passes. three a year which was very nice and er oh well whilst i was there, you see, erm i landed up in, in peel because i was going on a and she said to me one day this miss er what are you doing today? and i said er, well i'm going on a coach trip to rou around the island and she said, may i come with you? i said, of course and i said it would be nice company and so she said er you sit near the window, i've seen it lots of times before, as i only live in manchester. so she ca the two of us went together. well we went off, we got off at peel which was the other side as you know and there was peel castle right on the hill there and erm well after, and she said we won't go to these sea front cafes, well i know a nice restaurant, she said, up that road, and she said, just turn to the right and there we are, see. she said, may i come with you. i said, of course. i said it will be nice company and so she said er, you sit near the window, i've seen it lots of times before as i only live in manchester so she t well the two of us went together. well we went off and got off at peel which was the other with the all bandaged up and she said the chemist advised me to go to the police and er so she said that's why i've been a long time because i've been to the police and reported it. he said it's happened before and he advised her to go to the police and er so he, he said er when and the police st told her, when you come back we'll have all this typed out i and she came back all with a flask all bandaged up and she said the chemist advised me to go to the police and er so she said that's why i've been a long time, because i've been to the police and reported it. he said, it's happened before and he advised her to go to the police and er so he, he said er when and the police told her when you come back we'll have all this typed out, your statement but we'll need you to sign so tell the coach driver to stay at, stop at the police station for you to sign it and i, i said to her, how, how did you manage to stop that boy? oh well, she said, you see, it's my work, she said i work in a, in an insurance office and she said i'm in and out the courts all the time, you see so he knocked down the wrong person yes. yes. well anyway er, you see and well anyway er so when, that night and we were by coach of course bus, went there by bus and so that night she said to me, what are you doing when, in the bus, she said, what are you doing this evening? well i said i think i'll go to the theatre and off i went to the theatre. i was rather late back,when i got back i heard a knock on my bedroom door and she said it's miss and er i said, oh come in, i undid the door and she came in and er and so she said to me er, i just had a telephone message from peel er to say that you have been subpoenaed to go the police court next thursday and i said what a day out of my holiday and she said, well i'm sorry but you'll have to go. yes. so the two of us went off to peel and er anyway they paid us, they paid for our lunch and er and so that was alright and of course i had to go in the witness box, you see and swear on the bible, you know, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, you see. i was a witness and so on you see and down below and the sergeant said to me, the sergeant came up and said to me, you'll have to be careful because he said that boy, he was sitting there with his mother, poor woman, all in black and er the em the boy's employer had got a solicitor on his behalf, you see, and i said well i can only speak through and say what happened, that's all i can do and er, so of course when i went into the witness box this man came and er asked me all sorts of questions. where, why didn't you walk on the pavement, on the path. i said there wasn't one, you see and er he said, er so you were walking, were you arm in arm? i said, certainly not. so he said, are you two friends? i said, no, we're not friends but we're friendly if you know what i mean. we're staying at the same hotel and sharing the same table, you see. he said, oh. so erm then er oh he asked me other questions. so he said, you were on the right and this lady was on the left near the gutter side? i said, that's right it's and there was a narrow road, yes. so he said erm, well in that case, he said erm, you were walking together but not arm in arm? yes, that's right. so what else did he ask me? oh i know, he said erm, let me see, oh he says, er like that, if it was a narrow road er you er pretty well covered the road and i looked, i said, covered the road, i said i know i'm big, but not that big a and of course everybody, the magistrates on the bench and everybody laughed, you see and there were newspaper reporters sitting down there writing all this down, you see and so i said to the sergeant, i said, would you be kind enough to send me a newspaper to er tonight and he to i am not sure if i can oh yes i think i did. i suppose i've still got it somewhere. anyway, i over it and er so he, he, he said, yes i will, i'll send a piece on to you . yes i can see them now, they all laughed you see oh dear well, we should be able to decide before the meeting and make the changes as we go along. yes, yes,. yes, just how quickly but, and the people that are used to the style of how they're gonna be done. i think that's stella's point. quite straight forward. so we probably can get another lot well before the if we're just talking about the niceties of the way these things are laid out, previous set of procedures say things like page one-o-two, page one-o-three etc, and i think that is probably good practice if you can look at a page number and so you know exactly how many pages to expect so, we can probably do that when we re-issue these procedures as well. okay, q p2. . erm, if there are any changes, however minor, if er, could we make a point of re-issuing the procedure, after we've decided a change . yes. sorry, i haven't quite statement. if we decide er, at each point of the committee meeting i, i think we should be processing any and suggestion forms that procedure owners have received, in a reasonable time, in order for them to process it before that meeting. and any changes that we agree in that meeting, can we then re-issue those procedures immediately after the meeting, or as soon as possible after? in principal, yes. i, the only problem i have , it's not between, it's meant to be weeks. yeah. can you just explain how that would work though 'cos we're now erm, auditing by job, aren't we, and given i don't know the audit timetable i can't visualise the effect this would have but it seems that one could be making a change 'cos a particular, a job's been audited and it effects q p1, or something one month, and therefore you make changes to it and another job's audited the second, another month, the second month and q p1 needs changing again, and it, in terms of keeping our staff with us, it will be quite conf , i think it's not terribly practical to keep having constant change. right, this is one, this is one of the things which i am not happy about, with the way in which you are running your system at the moment, and that is that you're being totally reactive. you're waiting for somebody to audit and find something wrong. if somebody comes up with a suggestion for a change to a procedure, at this meeting, yes you should be looking at what that suggestion for change is but all of you round the table should be thinking, well does that change adversely effect other jobs in our areas and it shouldn't happen that you will get change after change after change. you should be thinking beforehand, is this really right or isn't it? at the moment you're cre , you're cor ,, you're correcting your procedures on the basis of auditing and finding out what we're not doing instead of really thinking about them. long term, what really yes, but isn't that because we had a very, very, very long think about them and this is the first reaction to that long think. they were as good as we could make them, we felt, and we had a long think. which is first set of audits, first set of suggestion forms which have come through because a lot,standing order. i, i think what richard, what richard is suggesting is the very sensible way forward in the longer term, whether it makes sense right at this instant is, is another matter. i do think we've got to bear in mind that when you are looking at a change does it apply to everybody. erm, like you had the discussion on the first one and said, well, yes, it's all very well for you and yes it's a great idea for you, but the rest of us don't want it , and i think you've got to do that. i think that so far as we've got . money's our , we have the committee meeting, we agree changes procedures and as soon as possible we re-issue those procedures,monthly issues that . but there may be good reasons every now and then for not re-issuing er, even though it's agreed what the will be. i can't quite think what they are but i think the other possibility to take stella's point is that if there is a change that's come up because of an audit, where a particular job has been audited and you know that within the next week or so another similar job is being audited, it may make sense to refer it 'til the next meeting, providing you're not deferring it for a long period of time, to compar the results of the two jobs. and that means looking at the audit schedule out front so that you, you're not . all that means is a general every month that we'll re-issue some procedures. well, yes, but in the long run that it, that won't be, it will only be in the short term, when we're really honing out. sorry, i meant monthly was an adequate frequency. oh right, no more frequently than monthly. right. yes. could we have a copy of the audit time, please. . have you got one there? yeah. good. let's move on then to q p2. right. were any of your extra's about q p2, si? yes, one of them is. erm, start from the beginning. there's the quiff from peter, which is pointing out that the letter of confirmation that we reference to because it was a repeat, so reasonably enough they're not going through all the assumptions , and he also is saying that the er, letters of confirmation that is a repeat of the previous job. erm, a suggestion from richard's attached. there's a suggestion here from sarah. the application states that this procedure does not cover costings based on rate cards. we use rate cards in that excess but we still comply with the procedure which . it's perfectly reasonable to follow the procedure book and the procedure. are there any other rate cards that might be excluded? well no, there's the t g i rate cards but then this doesn't apply to t g i. but that's on computer? yeah, yeah. perhaps there's no need to 'cos the thing about rate cards is that if the rate card is there you don't have to go and get special authorisations or , you quote them the rate card. well, we have the same guidelines as . okay. you wanna remove it? but you don't have a costing, you do have a costing quote form. costing quote form. do you have all of these other things. it, it's a case of what she's letting herself in for if we strike this out. maybe she's not covered by this in effect. well, i mean, we have a different costing form but we have costing forms. where else do we have rate, rate cards, to rate card printing? yes, i'm trying to think. have you got a separate procedure for . yeah. knows the separate procedure . well, i'll have the . i'm not to keen on striking it out. if we leave it in, sarah can still follow the procedures. it's the same if we take it out, if we take heaven knows what . well we just established that there are areas where we're using rate cards and where we don't follow the procedure. i think does printing follow? printing . printing has its own separate procedure. i think one of the problems is not taking out rate card , if you leave out, if you actually say this procedure does not cover full estimates and costs or costing based on rate cards. so, if you don't take that out, it means that effectively you're gonna have to have another procedure somewhere that's going to cover rate cards. and if they get, if they're happy to work to that. er, we're gonna need . contact cover the procedure. so, if we don't take this out we have to do something about . . yes. . good, right. now erm, most of this is about er, repeat projects rather than new, original ones. erm, you can read the suggestion there, two point three, two point four. my only concern is two point four. we're quite clear we have to have provisional guidelines which say with , what level of seniority is required to authorise a quotation of the values. do we have a list of authorised researchers, that is people who are authorised to give costed clearances. yes, each division has erm,. right, so when in two point four it says er, a copy of the quotation must be signed by an authorised researcher. er, someone as authorised in the divisional guidelines, yes, authorised to, checked and authorised according to divisional guidelines. signed by an authorised researcher. that may not be by name, john. erm, i mean, our pres , our erm, guideline is by level. by level. i know we still say that is defining levels . okay, i just wanted to be clear we weren't finding an additional list of names of people who are authorised to do this. no. 'cos it, for example, in support when it came to the i don't know how other people are doing the guidelines but by definition the divisional guidelines mustn't say, must define who the authorised people are, or those . whether they do it by name or by status level or whatever else, really doesn't matter. obviously it must define the right, it's just that we had this issue in support of other research a questionnaire and in support key divisions, sorry, key departments have lists of named individuals who can authorise questionnaires. that's in data , data processing and, and . so, i'm just thinking that the potential across the company if you look at our system broadly and an auditor says the phrase authorised researcher, where's the list of names, they'll get an answer in one part of the company and they'll get a list of job titles in another part. no problem. . so, we agree two point four. erm, we haven't let anyone disagree with that either. i'm not clear about the, the sentence in case a repeat costing's copy of the quotation given to the client must be signed by an authorised researcher. is that . copy of the letter. oh, copy of the original letter, so if you didn't no, no, the new letter which says this'll cost, the at this time will cost you three thousand five hundred, then you've got it signed by an . quotation probably based on your previous jobs, somewhere write that down. no, you haven't. in case we repeat . no, i don't see any reason why we shouldn't arrive at a costing based on the costing quoted before. yeah, but you've got to come up with a cost somewhere, that's got to be . yeah, well yeah you just do that times five percent. percent, or whatever. yeah, that's what i mean. yes, but . that's the figure that appears in the quotation to the client. that's the only place the cost goes. yes. i don't see a need to have it repeated on a separate bit of paper anywhere else. right. just . the only thing is, if in access they may never actually write this down. they always write it down. oh, they do. mmm. oh, right. well, that's all right. i mean, the difference is, i think, that if you, if the letter comes from the liaison point then the letter won't necessarily be signed by the authorised researcher but we're saying a copy of the letter is signed by the authorised researcher and put in the file. right. yeah. yes. clearly, if the person is authorised himself, the letter on its own will do it. yeah. completes in the first sentence needs to be in upper case. in two three. right. . okay two, two three, two four and two five are all accepted? yep. well done, good. moving on to q p4. . any extras on q p4 before we start? erm,guidelines he's got that here. oh, has he. right, fine. oh no, he's got, hang on. none of the new ones . so. . yeah, right. there were references in the last two meetings and two quiffs from liz and peter erm, which i can dig out if you want me to. it's erm, as you can see, it's divisional guidelines for authorising costing needs to be and referred to under related documents rather than just divisional policy. . yes. i think this was one of the quiffs erm, arguing that er, a proposal er, will help prepare, the letter wasn't . a letter to the constitute . i mean, it's the same project. no, that's okay. erm, four nine, the research of formal question letter, order form or contract , to my mind, quite honestly, a purchase order form is a contract from the client but erm, the quiff seemed to think that it wasn't so, i don't know whether it's worth changing this, depends how the auditors form . the auditors picked up that we had a pink purchase order form which was neither a commissioning letter nor a contract. in my eyes it is a contract but do we need to make this change? . as we're going to make other changes anyway so yep. and we said that where a form referred to a procedure, the procedure would refer to the form so i've added that details are completed on the research approval form. yeah. erm. that's details of the ? of four point nine the date of written confirmation from or to client. yeah. we've also got client so, we've also the client contact record sheet which is . , you don't have a enquiry, do you. you only have it once at this point on, not at this scene of the . yes, it does, i think. yes, i think it does. now once question i have got on this. as i've, i mean divisional guidelines forthrising costing i've added to the related documents and i'll produce those because they're a divisional thing. er, i've now added the research approval form and it's become a related document here but in the original allocation of forms, the responsibility for keeping this up to date was not mine. now, are we sticking with the allocation that we had in the past, peoples responsibility, or when we change them in this sort of way are we mucking them about? 'cos i like to know what i am responsible for and what i'm not. yes, it decision. presumably the original decision was, was based on the first time , it is now the first time. yes, that's correct. who is currently . whoever. jenny i think, is it? yes. jenny . both are going to be difficult. it's going, if you actually think of, about this, it is going to be difficult to me to remember to change the responsibility. i would prefer that we accepted that stella's original notes defines the responsibility for forms literally for all the time. so do i. i mean, we just, we just don't have to keep changing it and talking about it. it does mean it's no longer the case that the, that the owner of forms is the person who's first mentioned. . no, but that was just an easy way of . yep. but we have all and we know what . okay. sorry, can i just. it may be me misunderstanding, but erm, are we therefore saying on this one, god which one are we on, q p ? four. four. where are we adding this bit about research approval form? at the end of four point nine. right, so we only do it once we've got the formal, so we're not generating a research approval form for, unnecessarily? no. right, sorry. i thought, we're only doing it once it's been commissioned. right, okay, fine. once it's been commissioned. can i just make one suggestion, sorry, and that is er, in four point nine, where you've got your formal commissioning letter er, you put down order form or contract. if you take the word form out and just leave it as order, then it doesn't matter in what form it comes from the yes yes. form or a letter. yes. i mean, just going back to your point, i mean to me an order form is a contract. if we're going to put something in then let's keep it as general as possible. yes. any other points on q p4. four point six you've got quotation letter and actually a lot of our quotations are actually faxes. would that,? it's, what it comes down to is an understanding. if we're talking about outside auditors, whether it's a letter, a fax or whatever won't make any difference as they won't quibble over things like order forms and stuff. they're looking for a written documents, full stop. but, internally, you need to make sure that your auditors and your, and everyone understands the same thing. i think it is fair in that case, because we do define a proposal as we've done elsewhere as a . good, q p4 done. any . no? good. . q p5. are any of you extras on q p5? yes,. erm, oh this is the, this is the point that erm, had stella wrought up earlier on. the quiff erm, was about these interim field reports, suggested that no such thing existed, interim should be taken out and the rest of it should be . er, stella was saying we are going to have interim field reports. that's because i'm going to suggest, so we call them interim fieldwork re , interim fieldwork reports. what . and that'll be a related document. no, it won't be a related document because we don't good. they vary. you can't have a standard one. like job descriptions. they vary and job descriptions with them. so you want them to be called interim fieldwork reports. yes. make sure . lower case. does this apply to er, interim response reports postal surveys. postal surveys? that wasn't quiff but it's parallel. i've never done one. i don't know. i'm looking at alan. you don't know either, presumably. could we say yeah, i think it applies. let's say it applies to postal in exactly the same way. so, all i've got to do is disembowel them. and you'll need to take on more, stella. that, when it comes to postals . right, interim fieldwork report. okay, fine, yep. yeah. right, so it's neither of those related documents. yep. five point ten. five point ten. this was the thing that came up previously about er, dispatch of a report not being recorded anywhere, because of that was a compliment slip which a photocopy wasn't kept and so we erm, therefore have to have a note made on the client contact form to say it's gone. this is gonna have to be a general reminder to, a general point to all researchers because they won't know that, i'm sure. that wasn't the original, that was never briefed. no. but if we have to do that. a major new it is a major new point that if we have to prove we've sent, sent things out then that means but you make a note of that as part of your i believe it's quite an important part. well, well, well. nothing about training should go on er, as training people procedure should go on the notice board, shouldn't it. i think maybe with this next issue of procedures we need a separate mode going round which says highlights the key things, yeah. highlighting the key points. 'cos otherwise everyone everyone will . the reason for setting aside a through the request as researchers where we're actually going to go through all the procedures, highlighting , the changes are and why. elizabeth, could you just sort of mark that in your minute, as something that if we do produce a highlight of changes, that is one that we . the first thing which is re , a really major change to peoples behaviour. it, from the requirements of the standard it does only imply where you haven't got a covering letter or anything like that with it. yeah, that's all the time though. 'cos all our reports probably go out with compliment slips, all our . 'cos if you've got copies of the reports and things in the file, then that's not a problem. where the problem arose was when there was no record of anything having been sent or what had been sent or anything. well, what do you mean, if there's a copy of the report in the file. i mean, if there's a copy in the information office is that good enough proof that it's gone? well, this is up to you to decide what you actually proof if you need it. this is a not unreasonable thing to have as one of our procedures remind you and ten, twenty . no, i know. now let's move on to q p9. i think this is the closest that we'll find. well, i'm not quite sure that's what it's called. is it called client contact form? client contact record sheet. sheet. client contact record sheet. record sheet. it's not a form, it's a sheet. is that referred . you take your , do you know that? what? advertising campaign, you probably don't know.. oh yes, i do. your sheet. have you changed your sheet. is erm, set down as a related document form there or? kleenex not yet, no. i was gonna say andrex. . so, in this case i do inherit a new form, do i? no one else has got, has someone else got responsibility for client contact record sheet? no, i don't think they have. i think i have, 'cos i think it's on the erm, q p whatever it is, document control policy records and i think that's one of mine. oh yes, it will be and it's , it'll be in the list, the list of what should be in the master job file. . yep. in the list. yep. it'll be in that. quality records? yeah. client contact record sheet. now i've got a suggestion form from sarah here with four points on it. is this on q p5? is that on q p5? it's still on five, yep. point one; er, for access the field element is pre-booked, it's only necessary to book additional days or shifts verbally in excess of that already reserved. will that come under the erm, when they inact continuous or would it continue as a non-standard survey? no, ros has already argued that in most cases access is covered by a standard procedure survey. right. so, what if it says simon, because i wasn't paying attention. so point one does not apply to access,have to have. yep. well, let's carry on with, there are others here. point two. booking forms are used for access face to face. erm, a schedule is used as a telephone omnibus detailing all the projects on that particular survey. so, there's an appropriate booking form for face to face which is actually in excess,. i'd say so. well, is it oh no, no, no. come on. can the term er, appropriate booking form cover this thing called the schedule. oh yes, yes. er, oh. call it a booking form. form? yes. i was just saying that's what a booking form is, a schedule isn't it? no, i mean the , the others have actually got booking form written on them. are we gonna be changing the name of the schedule to booking form. yes. or booking schedule. or booking sheet. either that or we write a couple of variations on the end of this and we say the general access conforms to this but in their case, the other one is pre-booked,the extras and they have a booking schedule. 'cos this says specifically in the applications, with the exception of continuous surveys. therefore, and i think we'll all take access to something that we would . paul, point q does not apply to access by telephone which is what we're for. mmm, well we don't particularly want access to exempted from the procedure. no. which, if we car , if we call it continuous survey then it would be. i've also got points at point three and point six now. this is when erm, we need to go back and look, look at your continuous survey procedure. yes. which we've already talked about and there's no reason why erm, you cannot have a one pager for access. it says it works in accordance with our normal procedures except and rather than put the exceptions for access in that procedure,. this requires us going through these with toothcombs as we've frequently already got access as an exception in them. we had it on this procedure, already. it's not complete, is it? one point four. and it's coming, and from what simon was saying, it's coming in, in other places as well. yes, points three and point six. i think very good at going through with a toothcomb anyway and i'm sure that she could quite adequately. there's a fundamental problem in here that my definition of the continuous survey includes access. if said to me, what's a continuous survey i would put access in it. aren't we going to . this procedure says the continuous surveys are excluded and then specifically says erm, what applies to access except this one. i think that's the aberration, isn't it? the oth , the other's don't say except continuous surveys anyway, do they? most of them don't. yeah, but we have got a problem with the other's, so far. this is the first where we've got a lot of problems with access. i mean, my concern here is that if you've got a procedure that's got nine points in it, and effectively we're going to go through one, two, three, five of those nine points and say either this does not apply to access or access does it differently. they're not working in accordance with that procedure. none of this really applies, if you read each of these they don't apply to access, in the real sense, do they? in the full sense that them, we're talking about. . well, five can't apply 'cos four . it sounds to me as though we should let the, the application stand with the exception of continuous surveys. delete this reference, point four does not apply to access by telephone, take up carolines point that we need for access when we've got through the other continuous a brief statement which says, the project planning procedure doesn't totally apply until . if we leave project planning. it's not a separate procedure. it's, it's a document available within access. oh, i see. it just says , it's different. but there's a continuous procedure that says . right, so there'll be a statement here or would that be in . there'll be a statement in the procedure that richard is going to write on behalf of jenny. oh, right. which defines a list of things which will have their own er, statement exceptions. so, if we're leaving with the exception of continuous surveys in there, where do we say er,. i thought we were gonna write so, we're going to write that in. because those that's gonna be in the individual master job file. they're gonna be in their master job files. any differences. but they all follow this. virtually, i think. fine, in that case. then they just have somebody who says, we follow procedure of q p5 . they don't even need to do that. if they are actually following a standard company procedure the project planning is very good monitoring. yes, the continuous procedure only allows you the freedom to make changes if you need to. so, if you don't need to. i, i would suggest that any areas here at, as a overall statement where you said things don't apply to continuous, that those are actually taken out and that every procedure applies to everything, unless it is specifically removed and your continuous one allows you the yes, that is reasonable now we're creating a continuous one, isn't it. i mean, that was obviously put in here at the time that we didn't have anything that covered it. oh, that's right, yes. so, i think perhaps if you take that out and write this continuous and non-standard one, it allows you the facility for using it or not using it, depending on the project you're working on. presumably should we therefore have something that covers quality, oh sorry no this covers it doesn't it, yeah, o.k. richard another point erm the only reason this is an issue that i get a cooking for as research process manager anyway, as audit manager i need to have other booking forms, and the only booking forms and additional booking forms i need are all jobs which then got to mrs which are the so i ask please make amendment to put audit manager in and i don't think we need to specify. erm can someone make it clear to me where we ended up with q p5, i am not sure whether we are changing the application or deleting yes the exception both doing both your doing both yes. is this being appraised with the exception or continuous service with the application, and we are deleting that point 4 doesn't apply to access. we will have a new procedure called continuous and non-standard surveys which says that they will follow the basic procedures, except where this doesn't make sense, and if it doesn't make sense the job will have in it's master job file a statement of how, it does comply with whatever it has to deal with. now on that point, for access someone now needs to pick up and write effectively a simple this is how we project planning on access. and there may be one or two other things we work through over this meeting and the next meeting. we are close to the end of erm you should be lively signing this document. we might call it a day at the end of the assignments and take jenny's away to recap, erm lets get to the end of the assignments first, q p9. where is q p9? papers rustling this one i think we should give a little thought, because this is the one i think where oh yes this is going to get complicated because i have now been given a quiff and a few suggestion forms about it you said you didn't have the print of it, is that right? yeah richard's has given me your'e still missing two? this is also one where we chase our search approval forms, and procedure. we've got quite a lot of these reports together here. it's also the one that covers you should continue this as a staff meeting with the only change that i have got here are minor things that were references from a previous meeting all the difficult stuff comes from the quiff and the suggestion forms that i have not looked at yet, and so if you want to do that around a table because i don't know whether thats right. can you erm, i i just hoped to dictate to you which would cover the changes of the research approval form well there is a list of things, list of points here, 4c does not apply to scan 5, does not apply to scan t g i questionnaire. 9 research approval forms for relevant to t g i space. 10 does not apply to t g i survey. the reissued so that the reissued quantitated appro.. search approval form no longer has provision for b p questionnaire approval. continue reading first continue reading. company survey's will not go through data prep but d p approval is critical why has this been removed from the form? because the only job we haven't capped, is continuous and there are no procedures for continued jobs yet, and we have not yet got an ad for kathy job and therefore no procedures were a mythical thing. however. laughing however, as we write these continuous things which we are talking about, approval for kathy clearly is an issue permanent restructuring for each i'd suggested to sarah it might be covered by q p10.5 which actually says that the research approval form is signed by the researcher which she felt wasn't really enough. that was my understanding of what might be meant to cover that point. that she felt that it was really something d p actually signed off.. well there is not for kathy but for kathy she thought this would be. well they keep a record now don't they d p keep a record anyway, there is a system where d p keep their own records perhaps it would be helpful they've authorised if i just read out what i was going to suggest simon described the new system for approvals it goes something like erm, sorry it's 9.9, all approvals are recorded on research approval forms full stop. erm in order to simplify the approvals from support division, field approval is recorded on the field review form, data preparation and d p approval is recorded on data preparation schedule the name of the person giving approval, the name of the person, the names of d p's approvals are recorded on the research approval form. so obviously you just write down that rita did it on the 10th. but rita in her own department has got the document that she sends so the researcher doesn't have to take the bit of paper round to everybody and get their research approval form signed. that's fair enough because you get action sorry, there's not room on the form i don't think it doesn't matter cause rita can't d p could authorise it. i said we haven't got a procedure for kathy i thought you were reading out the bit to all i have been saying is the things which aren't kathy's everything else questionnaires. now kathy seems to me should be checked checking the assessor, just as if it was going over the telephone well then that's just what i was just trying to think through on kathy. well we don't have procedures for it, we haven't written them. sorry if you take catty as the para now, then d p aren't actually, the reason d p sent the paper questionnaire is to just double check that all the columns and everything are laid out in the correct way aren't they and then checking it for that reason, whereas they are actually doing it on something like kathy themselves so they, there isn't the same approval going on. someone's got to check the filters are right the does that on a catty questionnaire well he does that on every questionnaire, but he still has got to get someone to double check it. mmm, it's that element of double checking that but, i mean that d p team do a lot of work on the catty questionnaires which doesn't really seem to be er sort of fully acknowledged at the moment. yes, i think that as richard said we need to agree if quality is to continue we have to write some kathy procedures. that thats certainly with a timetable to them we are in the best place to do it now cause we're still learning we have only done three jobs, four now haven't we? erm the kathy procedure is definitely needed. we are grinding to a halt on those aren't we? yeah we got d p 9.16, 28.32 we've still got four to do. are any of those other one simple, what you would consider simple ones to understand? erm, i will have to look at them they are actually. as 9 is one that obviously needs a lot of work and a lot of thought on it. i am proposing to delay 9 as a question for the next meeting qualitators, quality control rustling paper. erm this was the suggestions from rita all of them seem very sensible to me. well i have accepted adding those research review meeting. yep. are you, what are you going to call this form now si is it the qualitative review form or erm it is an existing it's called a qualitative data review form no it's called a qualitative research review form so what's this in the something else. oh i see as opposed to that which is how many groups they proceed to check. the qualitative research review form it's existed for sometime. so thats now reference and there is a project review meeting as there is a quantitative work. you have got four things sorry related documents. four how have i got four? i've qualitative field review forms, yeah qualitative data review forms yeah qualitative research approval forms. it does exist, but it's not referenced here, but it does exist. and if it's not referenced here it may not be referenced anywhere else. well, it needs to be q p9 then doesn't it? where we were just now with the research then talk about questionnaires. called research approval forms. no there is a separate one for qualitative and it is different. yes it has a lot it has a lot less on it, things like.. is this document on that side do you know? what? no, i just have qualitative approvals it's not mentioned anywhere i think it ought to come up first in q p9 doesn't it? well can i make a suggestion that you add it all to the list of the things to discuss it is . authorisations. did you get that one simon? erm discussion of q p9 we need to decide when we qualitative approval form or whether it gets,business procedure q p16. in that case we can't finalise this one until we have decided that. so i think that should be bought up. no one owns this form what we are trying to do is make sure it's ready so therefore it has an owner. it seems sensible that it goes with wherever the the qualitative procedure is aware of your design procedures. they may do a few they're not going to cut there, they will cut . yeah but it doesn't really fit in here at all, i mean it's nothing to do with any of this. nothing to do with any of this at all. it could come up under you see my visions for qualitative are slightly different to the four months at the moment, and i feel perhaps could exchange q p16 for the control procedures to be a longer procedure but to have everything covering the project plan in progress monitoring through to quality control procedures for just the quality. so if you look at something like q p5 where you have got this point qualitated, in fact a lot of the points don't actually apply to qualitated because many of the points relate to erm, d p erm,qualitative field as opposed to survey. so i do just wonder if i couldn't pick out point say 1 and 2 of q p5 and 6 which are about booking and booking forms and confirming the commission of qualitative through to whatever is required during the run off of it and then add the quality control check and finally you have got this, the final review. so in other words qualitative, the whole of qualitative between commissioning as merit checks has an er yes o.k. that a major review of the whole thing though. do you want me to have a go at doing that simon? because i have been difficult about it, if that helps you. well that would be welcome but it's fine, and it should be down to me to do it, but you are all welcome. o.k. i'll try do a version, but it does effect on q p 5 an q p6 you see as well coughing. can you and simon liaise . coughing. do you think that's a good idea? yes i think it is. could i explain one alteration on q p16 simon given our recent changes. we've got this erm, er, some one is going to monitor a proportion of work that you have recorded as transcripts anyway, and it will be a research director or a.d. i'm just wondering whether we can comply with this now. er, well will you leave that to me in the re-writing of this. sure absolutely. q p16 we are going to move on from then, unless there are any other comments on q p16, rita is going to attempt to redraft and draw together material from previous procedures, and that means that adjustments of previous procedures you will be able to sign, and finalise them. sorry, are you saying that erm we are going to delay doing anything about q p5. i would, in that, in the light of well, actually no we don't have to . in actually physically up dating anything, i would suggest that at this point that simon doesn't do of them until after the next meeting when we have got all the other's together as well because again they may attach things, just that you've got your information and know what's been decided and do the whole lot after the next meeting. can't we get monica to do the up dating ? i think it would be easier to try and draw them together so that we have got this document with the position so far, as we have a lot . it's very hard, i am finding it hard to keep up with them at the moment. certainly we shouldn't re-issue anything until after the next meeting but erm, having the procedures we have finished with so far, in their latest form probably helpful, even if it's only you whose has the master copy simon right so when we need some reference, we have got that chapter and verse. monica i am sure would be quite happy to. laughing she will be ecstatic she certainly won't be. this is what worries me, if you have got too much stuff going through one person that . that's what will confuse her. but their always in version two. no there not, this is going to be an interim version between one and two, what dot's just suggested. it's still typed as two. i it's she will type it in as two, and then you will give her the next draft and then two and then the next draft and then two, i mean there's no confusion there for her. that is extremely confusing for her, cause she has on her computer, she has various versions named in two, unless she destroys previous versions of m2 when she does this one well she should she should overtype the correct one which isn't what we did with m1 well then one is a complete rewrite. but we had various versions of m1, but we didn't ever get rid of the first version, so we could, the one that suzannah did and then the one that i changed, and then the one that the committee changed, all exist so that we can back track what we actually did. right. how did she with this we just need to type over it no, we do, i mean you do this just the same as any normal report, you do the first one and then you edit it and make yeah, yeah. monica will be alright she know's what she's doing, it's just whether she has the time to do it, she would liked it if we had done this before christmas, so that while you were away john you could have done it she had plenty of time to do it. would we be able to do erm, just a sort of support ones and d t p if we got the masters from monica as a standard responsibility. yah, now she's made them out, shall we say we will take that one to share the load. if monica gives a brief one. press on please to q p 28. papers turning i don't think i've got anything new on this so all of this comes out of b t 7, and this is all to do with stella's original paper about who had responsibility for forms and so on. any problems with these proposals. seem perfectly sensible to me. accepted. right then number 32, q p32 erm we are renumbering some points in that one, erm we were trying to avoid it before but i can't seem any way of avoiding it here because these are major new things. then there's the new additions i'm sorry about that. papers turning the proposals on q p 32 actually reflects erm, the decision we made earlier on my, my proposal about suggestion of whose responsible for . sorry. well i think points 6 to 7 are to the procedure owner who communicates what action and under responsibility both points it's actually procedure only and not divisional quality manager. that would be o.k. if the only suggestions allowed were suggestions about procedures. we have just agreed that we would allow suggestions about procedures and other suggestions about the way the company is run. they are often the same person or principal it could be either in divisional quality manager or procedure just a change of how we would suggestion box unless so maybe simon a brief statement in the application yep would clarify. well. we decided that we didn't need to change the application i suggested that. this procedure describes how suggestions for improvements to systems and procedures are generated. well in that case how about on method point 1 suggestions for improvements we need the word 'two procedures'. yes yes suggestions for improvements yes suggested to for improvements to procedures. well i suppose we've got to reissue it anyway so we might as well. yeah, yeah. good. i propose elizabeth that you circulate jenny's reprocedures to everyone but we don't know with them, that we will read them prior to the next meeting and agree them at the meeting papers turning i have got to assess papers turning take one. take one of those, i've taken one, take loads of copies three procedures coming out i thought i was getting it already anyway laughing scattering the whole process . can we just agree one final bit of detail before we pack in, there are a number of procedures now either which we be re- prepared as the basis of today's discussions, we have only got two, have we, is there just two? three three 17 18 and 21 21, i've got 17 18 21 is choices, it was the first one to come round. don't try to blame me. bottom pile in choices if you can send it back. are there any spares to erm oh yeah thank you, suggestions, in preparation for the next meeting, for those procedures that we still have to review, the procedure owners are going to put the information to us in one of two ways, if it is a minor modification procedure small changes of wording things need to be uncontroversial, we will resite the procedure with red line and strike out in the way that jenny procedures have been prepared and circulate before the meeting. yep if the procedure owner thinks that more substantial discussions are needed then we prepare something based on model assignments paper which summarises the erm, in put so far making the proposal as a bases . everyone happy with that? just to confirm it is one o'clock next monday working lunch. is there any chance of a bigger airier room, or is it just whenever possible i try to get a lecture theatre, erm but i was told it was booked all day today we were originally in presentation room then came, so be grateful we're in the board room. that was actually quite a productive meeting, although it took quite a time to get through it, i think we did the right thing on the continuous procedures. that will be bit of a break through as i was getting a bit despondent about them. any note from me about progress will follow next month's meeting not today. i agree, yep. o.k. before we pack up any other business. erm there was i am sorry to be boring but there are all these action points from the previous meeting oh yes i forgot the action points do you feel we have covered them. i don't know. erm i don't think we can spend a long time considering them, it's just if people bear me whisking through them our brains. could i also ask a question which you might be completely clear on, but i'm not, when we do back checks on files and make sure they are all up to date and so on, we come across maybe a research approval which hasn't been signed off in the right places, how far back in time do we need to get that signed off. we don't. we don't. if it's something like that erm, all will go back and check that erm the researcher in as a matter of course, a couple of months and make sure but when it comes up for the real audit, what job, is it going to encourage jobs that are audited. old jobs you can't say don't know they will of course be we will explain our procedure and how a system is developed to be assigned, they will decide. what will happen in fact is that you'll have a start date for your system, which was basically when n1 was, and what they will be looking for is that everything from that date forward is complying right so that a job that started before then, they won't look for the initial part of that job to comply right as of that date onwards they will look for it to comply. in practice if you are back checking files and such like, if you find something that is current word which should comply and you find something that hasn't been appropriately signed or whatever, if it's easy to get it done yes do it yes, if it's not easy to get it done erm, it may be, you've got to use your judgement because i don't want you to go into a lot of work, but it may make sense to make a final note we are aware that this wasn't done correctly this person has been reminded, or in this case it's fine anyway so well that depends on whether you are actually doing it during an audit or doing it for other reasons, what they are looking for is that your system is getting better and that you have done the right things. well thank you. i will run as quickly as i can through the minutes of the last meeting just raising those things which still have to be actioned. erm missing procedures we have decided that jenny is going to write t g i, beety will write b t and we are going to write something on access and we may need to write something on erm health and finance and those documents we have got in the master file. so that's under way. er, costing for parallel, repeat jobs, that's been dealt with by simon erm, client contact record i think that's now been assimilated into new procedures yes we have just talked about that er sub- contracting you have probably dealt with that, although we haven't discussed it yes er, list of procedure owners i have prepared and reissued it, i don't how wide they have circulated it, it was meant to go into the quality manual, and the quality manual is not being re-circulated until march time. i will provide a copy to elizabeth and we will circulate it to members of this committee, together with the ministers' meeting. julia's definitely got a copy yar, i think i got a copy but i just sort of filed it with all the quality manual stuff, as there were various different things which needed. alan d p p forms done. yep. all forms weeded out, get things destroyed, quality divisional quality managers. i think we've reviewed that this morning, early and we are doing quite well on forms, but do we need any further action on that? yes we really need to do this don't we. do the weeding yes and sorting which is really going to come from our meeting. well can the divisional quality managers be prepared to report back on this next monday. well wouldn't it be better to wrap it all up in the forms meeting. rather than take the time of the quality committee? what's this forms meeting? it isn't yet it isn't john hasn't arranged it yet. that's why it's not in my diary. i'll organise that. o.k. all of that next bit relates to the form meeting. the form's meeting and i will take along to that. so that's down to me yep? o.k. well we have dealt with that, research approval is what has changed it. is that all that was? you've done that. laughing every so often senior level people must go to files to check that things have been correctly, you need to continue to do it,, action divisional quality managers. i'd like elizabeth to bring that forward yep for my benefit, as i know i haven't done it and i'd like it as a prompt. you want some spot checks, half an hour a week to go and do some spot checks on that. how about that? was that meant to be that people like me should be doing spot checks, richard should tell people like me to do spot checks or richard was going to do spot checks? it should be that richard does it, though he might choose to delegate it. but the i . . richard is responsible for seeing that it is done. yes. yes. in one way or another. there are two things you're trying to achieve. one is the spot checks themselves to make sure that everything is right, the other is to show the commitment to people like you that this thing's important. active staff. so, we need to make that happen. yeah. t g i manuals, well jenny's working on that. sub- contracting work, q p19. rita. t g i production list. yes, to be fair jenny came in er, on friday to talk to me about it, but i just didn't have time, i was rushing off to a meeting so i've you carried forward that . yeah, i, i couldn't, i just didn't have time. er, okay, we'll carry forward jenny . probably in her procedure. yes. , q p17 changes. yep. d t p printing need their quality manuals reference in presentation will of course be . jenny did circulate to me, by way of saying, i've done something about this, copies of d t p quality manual and printing quality control manual. with good quality manual, one of quality control manual and and all these are is the old procedures, quite badly out, not written anything like . so really i, i thought they were a bit of a mess to be honest. is that a manual? that's a manual. big manuals. i don't think they are any good for the purpose myself, but maybe you've got an old version of the . the procedure circulated them as the thing that's in place. yeah. they've been retyped and they've been called erm, procedures. erm what? guidelines, sorry. guidelines. and er, they are actually a good description of what goes on in those departments and those that relate to these procedures. could you make sure that jenny is clearly briefed then, because she thinks, this is version n3, dated january '94. . there is some confusion there, i think, and er, i'm glad they've been retyped and issued . there's already more reason why and that's suggesting that you're saying january is inadequate. . you can have two issued in january, one is like n3 and one's n4, because you know that n4 is more reason for . so, we're going to follow up on that. well, the issues of it. alan, can you feed back to jenny what the state of play is, but she also doesn't seem to have her document control particularly well organised and if you and d p, sorry d t p, re-issuing those guidelines, you shouldn't be. jenny should be. if they are related documents to the procedures. they're controlled documents. erm, they weren't controlled documents up until now. they weren't, okay. they're about to become .. they came out of the audit, didn't it. and out of carolines audit . yes, they sort of crawled out of the woodwork. thank you, stella. we just raised an instance of the next point of the minute. it must have been reference for jenny to be no. they were originally procedures, you see, and then they disappeared as procedures and went nowhere. they were in, they're coming in in seven reports. your suggestions? like the last meeting, yes. it's not fair. can we use things like document . as things are revised we should try to harmonise names of third level documents. we've got the department quality manuals, working guideline, we've got the quality control manual, we've got the quality manual erm, it would be nice to see if we could harmonise them. but, we could only do that from procedure levels and . that was a , wasn't it. but not accurate enough to say at this stage. it, there's no point in re-issuing perfectly good documents just to change the name on them. no. but,. but, new documents that are being prepared. i, i would suggest you need a standard name for it. quality guidelines or just guidelines. guidelines. wouldn't it be whatever it is, yes. guidelines. dot. dot, dot, dot, dot, guidelines. well, can everyone take on board the idea now, if there are new documents being prepared or we get to a major re-issue . we're talking about guidelines. yeah, in the process of . even if they're all about quality control. yeah. . no, just thinking of data prep. think about guidelines. yeah, i mean, a document that is literally about levels of verification and . . i have one question about it though, and that is ar , if you're calling them guidelines are they guidelines or are they mandatory . we could use this procedure say according to the guidelines, then it becomes mandatory. guidelines. no, no, it becomes mandatory to follow the guidelines which are not mandatory. . i think it's important that you know. they are in the sense that i think we believe they're mandatory, don't we? . but we don't want to make it a, a potential area to fail . it, it depends on just what these things are for, because if think about a third level document as being something like the t g i manual, that's got to be mandatory, you've got no choice in it because it's not covered in procedures, it's got to be that. there are other things that may not be, so you need to think very carefully about what name you're going to call them and whether all these documents are mandatory or are advisory. could we put on the agenda for a future meeting something called review of guidelines where the, this is exactly the issue. yeah, so what to call them if we're going to change the name, or what we will eventually change it to, we're not going to change them now and whether they're mandatory or not and whether we need to change them to say that. for a future meeting or the next meeting. not the next meeting. just no, not the next meeting. february, march. february, is good. february. training records, there is a committee in place meeting tomorrow to deal with that. sorry, february, i think we'll be having feedback, won't we? don't worry about it, we'll alright. february will be good, we should it before march. we should no the answer to this before comes. right. er, stella, have you taken action on q p24? erm, yes, we have. this is where we've come up with critical application software. okay. i mean, you'll see it in my procedures when we, when we get see we've twice as divisional quality manager half an hour each week looking at . it's now an hour. did i say an hour? . oh, is it. double dose. erm, richard to organise our auditors to accompany caroline next time. okay? yep, fine. er, divisional quality manager should give positive feedback on divisions about this pre-assessment, the one that happened. anything to report back on that, divisional quality managers? one divisional quality manager didn't even get positive feedback.. i think richard gave me a copy of all . . mine, they haven't. no, i mean, the meeting wasn't that long ago. i'm having a division meeting on . so, i'll make sure that it's more general, i mean, i talk to the directors. i'll not call a formal divisional meeting, we had that on wednesday. well, i went round and talked to group , but i think there's a lot of er,about keeping everything fine and up to date at all times in all places and all the rest. , it was almost the energy to manage to do it, a hundred percent of the time and a hundred percent of the occasions that they felt, i think, was a little daunting. there is still lots of goodwill and i'm sure er, they'll aim to do it but we're getting, if we could be this time next week, given feedback and come back with some response and maybe john, you can take whatever comes out of that on board in your . er, changing needs to get signatures, that is done. thank you very much for your help, susannah. er, john went around to all staff is done.. done that. well, actually,wasn't a reminder about the need for suggestions, so perhaps that could be included in, in the next one. i included quite clearly in my re-issue of the research approvals form er, the covering letter that went with it, saying you know, here's an example of suggestion that makes your life easier, please keep them coming. that didn't go to everybody. that only went to the it went to all procedure holders. only the nine . call for more suggestions,, okay. mid-january we're working on that, suggestion forms, three quality completers, i've put that in the revised list of people coming round in these minutes. q p32, suggestions . well, we've done that, haven't we simon? yeah, i think so. matters arising from previous meetings. version dating related documents, task not yet complete. still not complete, but we have reviewed that and we're making good progress. mind if i have something with it. roy is to check on receiving inspection of testing received in . q p4 is amended now, simon. q p17, jenny has drafted and circulated. q p28, amendment still to be done. you've done those, simon. yes. and issued them to date, that's fine. b m r b international reports, not yet issued. yes, it is. yeah, a manual. that jenny has designed. jenny t , don't know, 'cos it was down to jenny d to jenny has given me notes on, on one issue here which i must admit i haven't had a chance to read yet and it's about house style, about both manual. i'll make sure that er, i've read that and talked to jenny in time for the next meeting so we know where we stand. so that's a cross to bring that one forward please. john , still . and? well, she knows she's going to do them. good. quality jobs isn't her favourite job. is it anybody's favourite job? she does it well though. er, next for job descriptions to go to the quality manual. i'm sure you've got the masters in place, haven't you elizabeth?procedure review to start in september '94 in appropriate er, richard. yeah. good. dates for '94 meeting, blah, blah, blah. next trial audit, that's it. what an awful, that did get ticked off actually, as we went through. well done. sorry it was another long hard meeting but we are making good progress and i think by the end of our next one when we've revised most of the procedures we'll be well placed. good, thank you very much.. er er got them last week from freeman hardy and willis. ooh oh! i know what i forgot to get in town. damn! what? a comb. i did a classic a pocket the other day and dropped all my dinner down me. oh no! i put it on the arm on the chair, i was trying to be clever and i sat down and it had like material there and i caught the material and i just sort, all fell down here, it's a lovely smell. wah! wurgh! of what? it's just god! it's mushrooms and tomato and yuk, it just alright. have you got a comb here? erm or a brush? no. i haven't got anything. i've got a travelling brush. no i don't brush my hair. oh. so you must have to get one from somewhere then? yeah i know, it's the sort of thing that tired. i what's the shops up here in fact? are they reasonably near at hand? yeah. fine. if one walked up there ? oh yeah, walk down there in a little while. okay. i'll get the stuff in first anyway. yeah, i'll give you a hand. is it all in the car? can you move that one? yeah. well then when you're driving along you, you haven't got any music. yeah, it's not nice in the car without a stereo. so i'll leave aha. i'll leave you to put that down there. yeah, i'll put put it in my room actually. we didn't know what to get marion. oh so i might get one of these. i think it's open. but er it floats in your bath when you put it in the plug. oh! right. oh. the 's on which will just here. and i bought two secondhand books yesterday and she wanted one of them so i might give one of them to her. oh i see. right. only one pack. where's your t v aerial? it's got a connection. went and i saw some monkeys though. in cancer research. mm mm. . oh is that all ready? oh yes, i should hope it's all i need. so if i get that adaptor out? well i dunno, i should do, just fit in there. there we are. you got the other one? what the adaptor? the other ca no the other lead. what have you got here, whatever you've got. that was left here? mm. i know.. your thing's winding in here. mm? your walkman, your thing's winding. yeah, leave it. right. yeah. ah! it's a lovely table. how come they use this then cath? oh. just tied it round the ta erm table. so that's se and i want you at the other end. see both ends are the same. okay. i see it. now for the stereo. oh excellent! mm. if i get the darn thing in. excellent! there isn't any other way dad? to set this on to that no, but erm, that shouldn't be, no. i've adjusted it that wants a bit of that's it, one two. that's right. there we are. excellent! so, i plug this with this oh the stereo as well. yeah, i've just gotta get some small mhm. screwdrivers. aha. mhm. right. ah. god! my fire gives me such a fright. i'm lying in bed and i sud just little, little erm bits er the soot in it? come out. no,th the . yeah it suddenly bits of like there. but it all comes shooting down in one it's the go. yes the erm whatsername? and i get such a fright cos i keep expecting a bird that's the soot. to come flying no. out. usually erm it er thank you. it probably needs erm probably cleaning, or at least looking at. i'm too scared to look up there. oh bloody hell! no, i, i shouldn't. why won't you go in there? right. any luck? no not yet. was it ? i'll just take oh it's a good one, i haven't seen this in there. that's your broad edging. screw that, so the , cos apparently it reaches right into the erm like living room but all around the the house. which is quite go ooh! picture's quite good until you get a play. yeah. can you get the telly down for me? might have to . oh is something in the way? appears to be. i don't know why yeah. ooh . anyway let's find the other side here. have a go. nothing's ever simple in this house. oh. that one's gone in. hooray! well perhaps that one played that way then. zippy doo! in that case i've er you put that. put that back up and i'll wire round this to connect well that one, is, is up. that's it. that's that. right. put that back on. just there. that's that on with those. i'll move this out the way. oh that doesn't look too bad. no. it's it's fine when you see it. oh, oh, oh, oh! right? i believe james could even be a dentist. yes. be quite happy. i expect that i got my n h s thing back. oh yeah? erm they were crap! crap really. was it? just money or or nothing. no free prescriptions. oh! don't know what they expect. how much they expect you to oh well pay out. i'd probably best to put it all in a all in the corner there. okay. i was gonna shove it can you get it behind there? want to sort of put on the top of the wardrobe and then make it drop oh i see, i'm with you. back. okay. alright, well you run what you want round there. hold on. let me undo this a wee bit. there we are. yeah so it's, it's on the floor just just chuck it over there. okay. hang on love. oh it's no that's fine over there. okay. it's right behind the yeah, that's fine. right be crate there. and where d'ya want it? on top of the on the top of the cupboard d'ya think? out the way. erm yeah i, just at the back, or or, or just, or just up a bit? or if you can sort of wedge it in there. leave it in. yeah, well let's have a look. you take the curtain and that hook. that's it. do you want me to hammer that cos it's pinned? all over there. is it? i think you might be wrong. not that good, but it looks good. yeah. yeah. there. now, just underneath that fuse box just kept it low. oh lovely. cheers. it's done? all you've gotta do is hope now that you get a decent picture. turn it on. do you like my wardrobe? i did it last saturday. hey? watching the doctors. oh right. i changed it. half my photos are still on the wall at home but erm no wonder i couldn't find them. thought i'd put a few of them up. hooray! good. yes. it's a clear picture. that's alright. it's a clear picture. keep on the football i shall be alright. tt! perfect. yes, i wanna see whe the good goal one. put it on tape then. arsenal nil, manchester city nil. ah oh! not so bad. god! dad! england did really well didn't they? oh god! chronic! terrible! why are they doing so badly? is it graham taylor? oh ferdie wasn't playing was he? no. no. that's sad that. cos i think he would have made a bit of difference up front there wi er er cos they would have the defence they put in mottley. yeah. the defence was very bad. old graham taylor's mate. yeah. i realized old, old ferdie wasn't playing. yeah. the defence was very slow as er er, when who was it? merson ran at them yeah. er but er, they and also platt i mean, platt got pulled down. okay, next job on the agenda yo you got some trouble with the radiator? yeah, it just doesn't which one's this? my one. is er, i don't know if there's something wrong, but it doesn't the heat isn't well angie's one's like boiling hot yeah. susanna's one doesn't really work at all, but my one's just like lukewarm. oh well, let's have a look. let's have a look at this so then, this we did, we did try to pu well, as i say, with the trouble we had upstairs, we just thought it just wasn't worth our while to sort of mess no. around and try and do any more. no, no. that's right. cos we just got a real fright when we couldn't stop the water pouring out. oh. it's the little washer thing. just turn the tap. well i'll get cleaned. come on, you take the stuff down and rather me just try and . and then er, once i've done that i've gotta nip up the top and get a comb. i know i do i forgot to take one down to the place with me i checked the then that, now we go it's alright, i'll get you one in twickenham and i'll pay in that money as well. okay. alright. fair enough. could do. well, do you normally walk in or, or, or do you expect a ride? what do you wanna go you on the bike ? oh i see. oh just as easy to erm what go by car? go by car. oh. it takes about well about two ticks, ya. alright. fair enough. i've still got oh no, ticket's run out now. what, four pound for one hour? oh i'll just run in. okay. right now. the alternative is, do you wanna si this is where you running here, you dunno what i just done with the key actually. tt! boy! that's bad. not to worry. not to worry. erm what we can do is er use something here. i bought this lot down with me. it might be in the other room actually. now so the thing, and that goes in here, can use oh! what, is it a spanner? it's a sa kinda ratchet type thing. oh. just that i think susanna wants to spanner to work, her bike's not here otherwise i'd have if she gets back in time, fair enough. just thingie that still, do you think you better bleed it completely and let all the water out? no, not let the water out, you let the air out. when you bleed oh i see. it you let the air out, that's what, that's the idea behind it. oh i dunno, i don't know what we did at that oh it's alright. but it just doesn't seem to be working very effectively. i mean, obviously it's off now but erm is angie's one is really like hot and will dry things whereas this one takes a bit longer. hello? that's got a a key down there. oh. oh. yeah i said we'd erm drive over to marion's on our way out and then give her a pressie. mm. i had a really nice meal actually in erm tt a place in teddington. oh yes? it's just li what's it like? it's a sort of italian place. i had a really nice chicken erm mexican pasta thing. really nice! it's a really smart place. mhm. and er you'd better get that key actually. oh. i hope it's in the other room hopefully. mm. while you're doing that chuck us my thing over there as well. oh great! we won! can't hear ya! oh gre oh lovely! whoopee! we won! we won! it could ne it could have been two two, but er stejskal saved a penalty in the last minute. oh dear! oh lovely! oh, i think i must, i'll give her a ring. i really don't know i'll see where she's put it. well where is she then? at home. where does she live? sheffield. i'll give her a ring. i can't think where well it must be somewhere in the office. i can't think where at the moment. i haven't got, da da, da da right. she's not in. mm. yeah. hello angie? hello. i hope you don't mind me phoning you, but where's the radiator key? yeah. yeah. oh! oh if you did, i've got it. oh right then. aha ha. oh yeah,. oh! seven aha. seventeen! really good actually seeing as it got so much smaller . yeah. that's right. but i was really phoning you up erm met julie and . yeah it was really nice. it was, it was nice. erm i think joe and ray had a great time. erm it was really . it's just . but er good lord! no, no, in the garage. twenty six. oh that's not bad. just practically put on a down there. it's not very far. but, well go now so that doesn't really count. you'll have to trust me, it'll be alright on the night. he wanted to take it anyway. so, we're gonna have to come an agreement of what she's got there. yeah. of course! yeah they, erm . going down to pizzaland. .yeah. i said when she did it, she goes oh my god! didn't she know? yeah. no. no? that's what i said. it's just crazy! yeah. tomorrow. yeah. mm. oh i said, i just want to . can't you just take him out? oh yes, i think you were quick. yeah. well he didn't say goodbye dad. dad! yeah? do you want it in there? yeah sure. they actually went home because erm it's her friend's twenty first oh i see. and erm she li she's in egham and her boyfriend came down and was driving her back to sheffield and then driving back again here on monday so she got a free journey home. oh i see. which basically i mean she's had so she thought it would be nice for her to get away just to sort of sa you know have a breather from it all. does that make sense actually. i dunno. oh look! q p r! that's it. oh er , hey! hey! look! yeah, but there's seven teams in front of them dad. yeah i know but er i don't mind that. q p r. now this is the key is it? it is. right. that's it. now can you get some me some matches and tape something like that? erm, i don't and this doesn't turn is it? what? it does turn. yeah. well, well it just gets dirt because erm okay. you get some kitchen paper and i'll bleed it. i don't . well i might need a hand. you have to make a move in do you need a tea towel? well can't we do it when we get back? bloody hell!of confidence. i'm not going to do any drinking . yeah because when we get upstairs i think something in here fell out so we're trying to get it back on. it's all this went down here . now i can see why the water comes out and then air so oh so you don't really lock it? . and is it on, er, is it on properly down there? i don't well if, if you can just . there, there, there's no no. no air in there so so what's happened here? this is open. er get in this you see, if you wind it down yeah. the thing'll go down so the er yeah. that should be open. right. so that's all open. i don't, i do i think he's set it to come on later so is it? well i can, well i can put it on earlier so we can see if it works. okay. if i leave your key there. let's go alright. then. right. cheers. er ye erm don't pay all your money,ye you got some cash yourself? in next week? yeah. oh you are? i'm not in monday. oh i don't mind. what are they? but erm, i can't take it home on my bike. what do you want it for? i think it's excellent. why don't you take another one. take that one. oh god! can't be bad. well it's . really? god help the susannah! does she have to get permission to do it? pardon? does she have to have permission to do it? mm? no, you have to ask though. cos no one was and we opened up all the post that came. what? we did that . we opened it all. we always open our post. we get c v's printed up cos i send them to my dad. well i wouldn't like some bloody c v we had cheques . cheques? i'd cash those. you can't. no you can't. no le , you can't any more. who are they for? er for the landlady i think. really? they're and that. we felt terrible. but we've got a massive sackful of stuff and no one had left us a forwarding address and the landlady hadn't been to us about any of them. so, you opened them. one was a court summons and a man came round the other day. ah! asking for the bloke who used to live at the house. why though? cos he hadn't paid the three hundred pound visa bill. yeah , we got something for boys there and it could have been a that they were being sued or something. yeah, they left . i mean, those were massive debts. all their banks statements are like four and a half thousand pounds overdrawn. i know. and they ke , i said to angie i don't know did anybody leave their glasses here? last week? somebody did. no. i don't know. i wasn't here. oh. get my coat. oh yeah! what i , what did you get your contacts lenses? no i get them tomorrow. catherine's saying, get blue ones. i said what's wrong with the colour of my eyes? but your eyes did look blue actually. i'm gonna scratch my noise! go for it. what's the matter, i've got blue eyes. . what's that evelyn? most probably you want . that is really haven't seen her this week. eh? when he's coming? i might . dunno. he's gotta phone me. he's gonna phone me. martin's phoning me at eight o'clock. who is? martin. what? martin! ah! so when did you get your tickets for crowded house? no! there's not one ticket left in the entire planet! ah ah! gutted! so annoying! where for? crowded house. i'm so upset. my brother's going and he doesn't even like them. well why doesn't he sell you his ticket? cos he's going with his work. and sharon. oh. his girlfriend? yes. they're gonna come and see me next week. not sharon from essex? no, she's sharon from australia . oh. alright then. she's allowed . that's the only reason i'll forgive him. cos she's not born in this country. otherwise she'd be banished from our house! ha ah! oh no! the old floor. i know. she's been dipping in the loo occasionally .. it was so cold this morning. i know. and it was so cold it's freezing! last night. just cycling in, it was horrible! so i'm buying a car definitely. tell me about it! well will you pick me up at oh yes. do a detour and come and get me. oh yes. i'm standing in the line of fire. really? yeah. and i want to do that . what did you mum and dad give you mary? contact lenses. oh! that's right. guess where lisa is now? where? oh catherine's is she lecture. oh has she has changed? apparently, yeah, but she's gone to to get it. really? yes . mm. went to see mike yesterday? oh i see. is that erm oh what did mike say about the exam then? didn't even know about it. oh why? well you see, and so many people know about it either. it's ridiculous! well who announced it? marion ? no. erm david told us. anna told us. oh you weren't there were you? no. he told us about lisa. anna told us, but he said don't worry he'll get it changed. said, you better do mate! did he say it was ridiculous? he couldn't understand why it had been changed. couldn't see the point in it. urgh! don't know what, it i , it is though. cos he never said. i did that. oh that's good! oh i'd have done that. gill? yeah? do you like my balloon? which way is it coming out? she can't see . shame. . my hair's . oi! have you had ? see i washed it yesterday. oh. your hair always looks really nice anyway. no i have to sort of. so do i. but i just wash it every other day. it's always a mess. i've been putting a bit more glue on it. you're meant to put the glue on the paper. ah! well beryl just told us to where you put flop it on. she said to sketch balloons just go like that. this is what you should be trying to do. well you see, ours is best this is one i made earlier. anyway. yeah, right vicky. you see. what? yeah, but there's glue on the other side, d'ya know what i mean? well it's best to use that on the so you know what you're doing? no don't believe that one please. she hasn't got a clue. i need the loo quick!. i'll go down to get though. just so easy to do it to you now. tha , we lost actually. i might just do mine a bit at home. excuse me ? no! i thought about doing it i've got bubbles everywhere! i got so many . he could be a toy boy. who me? i heard that. marion you weren't drunk on your bir , on erm,mo ,wen , friday night were you? no. i was not. i was so ill the next day gill. sick. rachel was. and i just felt really ro , was she sick? yeah. ha! ha! but it wasn't the drink though. i felt so rough. did you have some of the punch at the party. yes . it's disgusting! i had about two mouthfuls and then i just thought, no,i'm going home . mind you, you haven't drunk for a long time and you were i haven't knocking them back a bit yeah! weren't you catherine? diamond white. oh i forgot about that actually. oh well, never mind eh? it's all for a laugh, a drink. i was drinking coke half the night. couldn't you have put the blue nearer the middle cos i'm getting annoyed. this is very much like . helen! what do you want? are you doing the middle cos i've gotta get this in here? i was gonna change, i was gonna leave please do it! by ten o'clock. were you? he's going first of all it's move the board. can we put this under a no! hair dryer? no. move the whole thing! don't be absurd! she told me off for doing the wrong colour there. i'm not surprised helen. it's very naughty. how can we, can you stand and look on top of see it sticks on. for five months . could wait hours. ! no good. it won't dry till next week. oh no! won't he's gonna it? have a look at it. we , well take about two days to dry. well i should think so. really? i wanna build it up. it's cos you haven't made the . yeah. that's what i thought. yeah, could do that. can you do it when it's wet? i thought you said leave it dry before your next layer on. did she? yeah. well i've got about ten layers on here. oh i'll do it. i'm gonna let mine dry. i was gonna make a little basket for it like a hot air balloon. that's what we made. you have to cut the bottom of it though. yeah. that's alright. you have to do it when it's dry. and then i have to set fire to the bottom bit. we had a bonfire last night. did you? what in your back garden? yeah. what to get rid of the well you should have invited me round and i could have been the guy. yeah. have to have another one though cos we haven't finished the garden. you can actually see the lawn now. i'm quite impressed. be nice in the summer actually. you're telling me. what's wrong with it? sarah? yeah? going shopping ? going where? go into london. we've asked them to put the christmas on u , on across early this year. what? so we can go and watch them now. cos we're all very excited, excited this year about christmas. in fact, if we had gill we're not the only one who opens up their mail. we open up ours. open up your what? open up what? mail. we always open ours. you've gotta open everybody else's. oh! what happened? but we'll tell on you. we just sat there , we thought it was christmas so we took a a big sack oh i see. and we just put them in the middle of the room and and we got . yeah. we open ours every day, when it comes it's in the post. when i don't get any post i open everybody else's. no well i was a bit gutted that they had loads of post, i didn't get any, and like they were even living there. be better though so you just open theirs. are they all students or ? some of them are, but yeah. some of them li , i think one of them's you're horrible! the landlady i am not. i dunno. what did you do you that for? you tell, if you found a diary you wouldn't read it? bollocks! no. bollocks! everyone would read it. it might have some . it's happened to me before and i didn't . no way! i think i don't even think about it. i would. i think er, i would. i wouldn't want to,but you have to do it . i wouldn't show my diary to a best which shows ach! ! that's terrible! i had to clean my erm my new desk out in this room before i bought it with me from your drawers. and found these erm pack of cards of page three girls. how old's your brother? eighteen. funny! how old is he? eighteen. and what did he have? pack, erm page three pack of cards. i think po , porno magazines . yurgh! no, only one, with that girl in from er, baywatch. i think she's gorgeous. which one? yeah she is quite pretty actually. which one? dunno. and you told it to leave it be? erm the one with long blonde hair? are you just bunging oh. more on yours? the one with the bob . bob, yeah. something to do isn't it? she was in, in that porno magazine. urgh! urgh! posed for pornography? yeah. charming! so have i gill. hasn't she got long hair now though? and the one that goes like this. nice! quite sweet. oh! peculiar bunch aren't they? no! urgh! it's hot. oh yeah. see, i've got glue all over the floor and it's just there you go. so what when do we have to be back ? we don't come in next week. the others, no. do you think in our exam we'll be given a choice of like it'll be shakespeare or i'm not gonna read that. i'm not gonna bother to read it. that's what i was thinking. cos i just thought it was so crap! what? i thought it was good. the alchemist. in the, just one what? week? yeah. yeah. that's right. so what are we doing next week? i think yeah. dunn? don't know? yeah. oh they, oh i bet it's gonna be blair. well if i read it and it's wrong catherine,it's your fault . so we've got and then d'ya think we'll like get poetry and then we'll get our last? i should think so. chaucer poetry? chaucer? you did chau , chaucer. oh! oh. it'll be yeah, paradise lost cos we've got at least three questions on it. why don't you come to english this afternoon, can i borrow your notes? got shops near there? yeah. well i missed, i missed yeah i missed that. so i think so yeah. do i, do they allow you to miss the week as well? yeah. you're allowed? no. i'm away till thursday so, and that's the thing. oh right. because of the funny days? yeah. yeah. i got my ba , interim report. you had to phone up. oh yeah. it came the next day. did it? yeah. shocking! post! i got a mass of parcels as well before for the, for the house for our house all the girlies. i'm going to get one. do you have to pay postage? no! i just said oh can i have some reports of all the students? they said, how many do you want? i said have you got anything else? so she sent me sort of leaflets as well? so it's a what's this? big bundle of post? you know about those excellent! i'm gonna do that. oh you're not in our group. yeah! ah! ah! can't tell you. nah! what group? our group. there's angie. give her wave. she's looking. you know the one you got with tony. you don't even know who it is ! the whatchamacallit one? graham. he's not. sorry, but he is. he's a really interesting man gill. really interesting man. er mark said that at least ten people have been . really? what that one on, when you say who else has given up then? ten people give up. blimey! ten people? mm mm. that's a quite a lot. and lo , lucy's said eh? ! i might change actually. no you will not! i'll change if i can think of anything else to do, but i can't. cos you know at least all i'd have left is a weekend. really? i'm not bothered mm. well so long as i can easily change . , i bet you do it. it's on there. bong! hi smell! you sit down and tell us what did they say? about it. oh! that much? you intend to tell aunty catherine all about it. what, did they pick on you? go on. well, they'll they said if you're a the stress. is that what it is? yeah. ! yeah. that's my problem. you feeling better angie. yeah. ! be cagey why don't you ? really? what? nothing! angie if you're be okay having a baby don't mm. worry cos i'll look tired. after it for you? really? i'm just having a polio erm like they wound me sugar cube are you? all up. they gave me that. yeah. cos i thought i had to have a tetanus, and she goes, oh you don't need it. after all that psyching myself up for it. the other day i had cos i er, dreaming about brain scans why what did you do to yourself? every form imaginable. and i was, i dunno, but erm, i must have been run down as well and it's a bit like going to wha what did you do to yourself? it was just everything no, er erm just in one go. i think that was all it, is but erm they going are you pregnant? could you be pregnant? i was asked that oh were you? and nearly died! i laughed my socks off! she says my mum was sitting in the room. are you on any pills or anything? are you pregnant? i said i'm on the pill. are you pregnant? ah? work that one out. funny! er erm can it be the ? no i, i've already asked that before. so what did they say? they're just gonna . really? so what's he given you? cathy! ooh ooh! ooh ooh! don't ask! well i've gotta go. i don't like that . you're not gonna believe it. what? i've got we're running balloons on them, they're meant to be like blown balloon things. yeah. ! oh angie, it's not very nice that you're not very well. i hope you feel better. oh. i'm a bit run down that's all. mm. sure. are you sleep she wakes up. sleep night? a sleeping pill. three hours a night if i'm lucky! that's what i was like last year, honestly. bloody awful! yeah. what? not sleeping? i'm not sleeping. it's awful! there's nothing worse than have you got any balloons? that. give me a balloon! no. ask cathy. you can just put some more on mine if you like. i'm not doing any more. i've had enough, i'm bored with this. why? you bored with it? i like that top. oh thank you. it was three pounds, in mark one. oh. and wear it for best. gill, you going to kingston? well i dunno. ye er yes, probably. will you buy me one of those from mark one for three pounds please? i got a navy one and a grey one. what colour do you want me to get you though? whatever they got. whatever you think would look nice. seriously? whatever. do you want a one? when did you get them? yesterday. i think. is it still in there? yeah! three quid? yeah. oh that's good. and i got two polo necks one with slight ribs in . what else did you get. polo neck jumper. i want some . yeah. erm this is gross! i know. what? i bought so many yesterday, i'm never buying another pair in my life. why? so does that mean i'm gonna be in english on my own? i better go then. no, i think you should go personally. really? how much do you get for a night then? mm? how much do you get for this? i get about thirty quid if you stand on the right corner. oh that's not on. thirty quid is that you'd get? ha! sorry . quick one cathy! sorry. gillian. what? how much do you get for that? oh. covered in glue. sixteen quid. oh! cheap! mustn't be a very good job then gill? urgh! it's just working behind the bar there is it? yeah. yeah, she's coming. is it busy? aha. cos i don't wanna work in places like that, i'd rather work in a quiet . will she go and see him or leave a note for him? i've made a mistake. matron cathy. yeah. given doctor's orders. mm. one . oh! no i think it's crap! there you go. gotta get that glue off. i could do that. yeah. it'd need painting. boring! it's bloody boring! da da . oh it was so cold this morning angie cycling in. i nearly died! i blood walked! i nearly died! i was knackered! then met up with carl and about ten other people so we had a little, a little erm convoy. where d'ya get them from? ha! ha! ha! looks good. a convoy into college. she gave it to me. i'd be alright as long as i could go on a route where all i had to do was turn left but as soon as i turn right then it's a problem. yeah. get into trouble. excellent! i think you'll just have to move your house so you just have to do a couple of miles. yeah. that'll be alright. and roundabouts, roundabouts are bad news. just go straight over them. what right through the middle? yeah! don't worry about any cars. i need to know when er i want bill to come along cos i'm gonna look at a car.gonna can he'll be up, i presume wednesday or thursday. i think i'll just but it buy it now. marion! don't be such a nerdo! they'll see you coming a mile off! buy what? a car. a car. she's just gonna go and buy one as you do like a jumper. just see one that she a big one! likes the colour of. yeah ! who's bill? my cousin. what does he know about cars? yeah. well, yes. i know about cars marion. c reg c reg fiesta, how much do you reckon a c reg fiesta costs? can we see it? no. i'm just gonna buy it. well i'm not, my dad and mum are. , just don't be impulsive. it's only one thousand five hundred though, that's alright. ah ah! yeah but . yeah. no problem. couldn't i mate? yeah. i'll buy a couple. marion they've changed all the shop around. what? they've changed the whole of the shopping precinct. oh oh. shut up! major trauma! no, major trauma is martin's got a girlfriend! has he? major trauma! i was writing to my friend darren moaning about it . all these male friends cathy! i know, it's exciting isn't it? but he didn't tell me he'd been going out with her for three weeks and he's never . i wasn't happy. what are you gonna do? well are you gonna go to the pictures tonight? might do. i'm seeing if i could be bothered or what, when do you have to go back? monday morning. late? early christ! in the morning. oh oh! it takes a long time then? yeah . yeah, i suppose so. had a rotten . claire told me. i'd be up as well, and he'll just goes back to sleep and i shall stay awake going, matthew you've gotta get up now! urgh! urgh! yes! ask him to get out. honestly, it was so funny on sunday morning. he got up out of bed and then i was thinking then he had a sneaky feeling that he tried to get out the door. and i thought alright then. and he run up the road just to buy me a bunch of flowers. ! i had my . yeah, they were in last night. what's wrong with that? what? you know what marion's like. shut your mouth! i want a huge present from you. i'll do my best. it's a month i think, on my birthday. what? sorry that, sorry he hadn't got wrapped my present up cos he thought i'd . it's okay. i haven't got any more anyway. my present was better actually. ! no. no, my one was. no. no. that can't be right. surely? no it is. surely there is a mistake there? no it's true. oh the gloves, sorry. oh i forgot about those. oh sorry. what actually ge , what did you get from marion? maybe it was that . plug pet. i dunno. a what? a plug pet. ! a plug pet? yeah. ah ah ah! what's it? what is it? what is it? a wha , is it a whale? float, you pu , you put your plug in and it's attached to the plug and it floats on the top of your bath when you're having a bath. crap! it's excellent! so excellent! floats on your bath? yeah! be no good for us. don't get us one. we ain't got a bath. oh oh, well, i nearly bought you one for your birthday. we got a shower. ah oh. you can only have a bath in our house. mm? have you? oh showers are more, don't wanna bath. yeah, showers yeah i know. that's why we got one i think. and i think my shower costs about ten p cos i'm not that quick. well mine might cost twelve point five pence ooh ooh! that's what i say . is she? she does. what? she makes out she's a novelty. er what? chicken kiev. chicken kiev, yeah. yeah, and she's like veggie burgers knowing louise it's until midnight can she have stuffed tomatoes and things like that. she has what? stuffed tomatoes. what she makes herself? yeah. you will on saturday, i believe rachel. i was sober. yeah. you pi ee ee ee! did you? yeah! were you hung over rachel? no i wasn't drunk. she was ill. i was ill. oh. i was really sick. i felt terrible. yeah but we don't mention that, we just have cos she was pissed . what? oh that one's really good. can i put a bit of glue on it? well it's supposed to be drying at the moment. look at this. actually i'm only joking . yeah. what do you think of it? did you do it? yeah, i tried melt half of it. yeah. so did i? what did you have? i felt merry. yeah. chicken pas , mexican chicken pasta. so did i! that's lovely! oh it was lovely! it was so nice! with tortilla did you have that? no, gill didn't, but she's, she's the odd one out. , i'm not having that. it was really nice. yeah, it had tortilla chips with it. one of us is doing the same thing. no. i am. oh. i always have that. i always have that same one whatever. that was really nice! what did you have? cajun chicken. oh why you had that last time. wha what's that? i just like it. is it on the bone? it's chicken, yeah. that's really, really nice that. that rice was too hot when i had it. oh! what is? the rice is really hot, like spicy hot. i remember it was. god! did anna go with you? no. no she comes afterwards. she didn't come with me. she wouldn't leave early marion. she wouldn't leave early in case she missed anything. i said i'm going, she said i've gotta stay. why didn't lisa's boyfriend come to the pub? erm, that party? cos of ben? no, not alison . she got rid of him. matthew's going right, he said i'm gonna invite mi mike to the party. i said no! alison's coming. oh crumbs! how weird! well i'm gonna invite him . what's that? does he know all about ben then does he? yeah, matthew hates ben. does he? he's jealous. he thinks he's really annoying. oh! right. no. who's got well a black felt tip pen? i have. oh you have there. is this yours? but sometimes he's a bit like, the other week ben phoned him and that and rachel, you know, rachel and alison's party so i'll come round and have dinner. great! and like matthew's phoned me straight after when i was at alison's and said oh ben's . do you spend a lot of time at alison's ? mm mm mm mm, not a lot. they must know to phone you there. er, er yeah, but always there and matthew know, matthew knew i was gonna be there. then i had dinner there . can you do mine for me now? i'm gonna make a mobile. you finished? yeah. no . can i just finish this chi huh! oh my god ! really subtle isn't it? and like, delicately hanging in the mine is not going up there. corner. this massive balloon thing . what's wrong with that? when mine's finished i'm not doing any more i'm just i wanna go home. do you? you're only jealous catherine. ah. why won't you be able to come in i am actually. yours is good. right , do you want to come in next week? no art next week. planning for our oh there's not! assignment. have we? yeah right! as if anyone's gonna get up and do well lisa's got one week. what is she doing then? is she reading? nothing. so what she's doing drama, continuing drama or no. did she have a choice? i might she's just do i think. really? and they didn't have enough classes , yeah. in that one. the likelihood oh right. but right, you said they were gonna change my exam. but she's still doing . she'll have to get a job or something. she'll be alright. she'll love it! really? she's got erm time sheets on there. so we wouldn't have to tell yeah . them that we changed degree would we? i'd go mad. yeah. and i would. i would. five hours, really? you only, i, after a little while i began to get bored. yeah. cos like i, i have mondays off and i'm in the house on my own. you don't know what to do do you? no. mondays is alright you can't stand anymore. yeah that's but that's right. i don't get, well i'm not really scared waargh! i just cook my food and do washing and anything but work. yeah. three times . you get a bit scared don't you? we ge , we go and mow the lawn . do you? i have my parties at work. i'm always too busy and organizing things. or watching yeah. t v. thinking about what you're having for you tea, that's what i do all day. yeah. when you get up it's like walking home and you work it out. we decided, as soon over yesterday we had a massive . are they ? but i, oh, i can't think of anything else. really? oh we had a massive tuna and er, erm sa i have lovely dinners. tuna and erm sweet corn? prawn and that. mm mm! and we had had loads of oh yum! potato salads and things. and salads in the pro in the food processor. mm mm! so and that, that sounds really nice actually. gillian what did you get then? i don't know. i made sweet and sour chicken yesterday and put it in the freezer. ooh no! ooh lovely! i bet it'll be . up again. oh oh! there we go. yeah, it won't be tonight though will it? never mind. i know i keep saying never mind, never mind. alright. i can't believe they're just gonna leave me to go in to english on my own. oh well i'm not going in. don't go. come with us. we're going to the the only th cinema. leave your work. i didn't go last week though. are you going to do more work? are you doing ? no not tonight er, early sarah afternoon. yeah. i'm like that. well are you? i didn't go last week either make a decision. able to get back. i don't know. we're all watching much ado tonight. it's excellent! go and see it. go and see it. i'll probably go and see it on my own. ah! sleepless in seattle's terrible. it's, no it's lovely. oh no! marion, go away! mm mm. sleepless in seattle's lovely! . oh my god! that's . i wanna see the tina turner story. so do i. the what? leigh went to see that last night. the tina turner thing. that looks quite good actually. is that much ado about nothing really ? no it's really, really good. is it? yeah. what? much ado about nothing. excellent! oh well i really want to see that. so good! really worth seeing. i'm gonna go and see it on my own. cos i haven't got no friends! nobody! it's alright, they're our lot class. what? we're going to do the editorial and then what did you say? perhaps i could call you sarah ? yes . i meant sarah. i get used to being whatever i meant comes first . my brother. i hate going to the cinema. i'm always and i was frightened so much. oh i love going to the cinema. i like going to the cinema actually. i do. popcorn! yes! seriously though,. i love it! it's a treat. pop corn! and then we can go and buy something nice for dinner. yeah. we go, let's go. let's go. treat yourself angie, cos you can always sort of catch up like that. yeah, that's what i reckon. and i'll help her. yeah. go for it cath! yeah, actually i'll yeah! she's such a friend! yeah! you're so good! yeah! who's that then? me. i'm such a good friend. why are you? i'm taking angie out to cheer her up. i wouldn't bother. got yourself a new top? sev so have i. seven pound fifty. where from? two pound ninety nine. trolium. i go to like whe two ninety nine! two ninety nine. not bad eh? yeah. what? i like that one. polo neck jumper can't be done. four ninety nine. ma really? where's mark one? in kingston? yeah. on only another one rail. i'm sending gill off to get it all. whereabouts in kingston? where's that? it's on, mark one. mark one. i'm sending gill to get me loads of tops back. really cheap clothes. oh i know. oh. how many actually left? that was two ninety oh i know! that top. it's a nice round sweater top. and she's got a polo neck. and it looks it looks like two ninety nine doesn't it girls? ah shut up! very good quality. you can tell. i prefer to buy quality than that yeah but two ninety nine is a macdonalds a couple of pints. meal. yeah. and also yeah, that's very true. you could buy a jumper yeah. and you wouldn't you'd spend it on a bottle of wine. yeah. look at how much joy how much was that? you'd get out of it. i wouldn't even spend eighty pounds on clothes. i know but i d'ya know what, whenever i feel guilty about spending some money now , i just think about how much i spent at home. i never ever , ever, ever would yeah. and enjoy it, feel guilty about spending money. oh look i did. i spent so something about you don't feel good or you don't feel no, i don't feel guilty about spending money on clothes. no i don't. yeah but now that's why i'm so bored. i suppose that's why i'm bad at saving money though. yeah. i spend pots of money. i know. what else have you bought, clothes then? no i haven't finished yet. cos i've bought like posh jeans. oh! how much did they cost you? come on cowboy! i dunno. about thirty five pound. are they i thought they'd be more expensive than that. yeah. no, these you came with loads of stuff. all of these low cost clogs. exchange it. cardigans, say i wouldn't believe two cardigans that. about four jumpers save money? it's . new bed. new bed. new bed. new bedside cabinet in the sale. i wanna see who's on it. i'm buying have you got it all in pine? marion. no. there you go. no, i had over a thousand pound . well and i've got a job now. oh have you? monday night. so what's thi , what your sister found that out have you started working at ealing ? wednesday. in twenty four hours then oh we'll be in. and pay you back. where? you will. up at the pub, in the tavern. that's our local that is. oh god! who did you see? she's gonna say you're not old enough or something. are you over eighteen? got any i d? okay, not you again? when does that erm say, i don't believe you're eighteen. that oh was it? yeah. but i want it. and i, she had the same and she said eighteen . well when does she work? saturday night? friday. friday night. yeah. if i can come in on saturday rather than sunday. be nice. sarah. if you bre , if you break that one why do they keep calling me sarah. they're looking for oh well i've got brown hair. you can put your leg on that now if you want. we're not allowed to keep them anyway. that's alright. look at that. are you not? yeah. michelle and them. oh. just get nabbed to do something else by them. oh. i don't need that one. i want him back here. he's a prat. i don't like them, and he's and the bloke with i don't like him at all. i wanna start when he says something for with . yeah, we've gotta do a transcription on friday haven't we? yeah. we have got to. just get it out the way, yeah. i want to see african does that mean you don't have any in the summer? yeah. no, we don't have any. er and then you're not supposed to. i should be the end. but we leave leave early. yeah we finish the end of may. yeah! wahey! forty. well the end of may. it's a pity, we shouldn't really . you're a fucking nutter clare! what? you're a nutter! i know. you're mad you are! mad! you're blooming mad! oh it's so cold, i've gotta get warm. . i'll try and keep the noise down. well done clare! i'm not gonna speak to anybody! oh well don't don't speak to us then. just have a game when you go round sainsburys. and the first couple arguing over which brand of over a long time now toothpaste to get did she? i feel sorry let them. for both of them. go on. yeah, and it came on just before eleven in the what? and i couldn't understand it. did he charge ya? no, not for this one. yeah. there you go. d'ya know what, i'm just gonna make up signatures. cos i haven't asked anyone signatures? i've taped. oh that's alright. what you going on about? about th , cos you're supposed to get their permission aren't you? oh yeah. i taped louise and and they had to be . oh good. d'ya know well we had massive yings yesterday! what? oh yeah. ying. ying yang yo they were massive! you went to the china garden? no! oh! it's lovely! it's really good. and cheap. it's much better than ying yang yongs. is it expensive? no. no. it's cheaper than ying yang yong. oh it's is it? really nice! mm mm! is it cantonese po lemon and chicken. pork? i had lots of it. it's not as spicy as erm garlic chicken. i don't like garlic. i had crab and sweet corn soup. what happened to with the all-night . i think, i think mike said it all really. i was going to mike, go on have some more. honestly, i felt so bloated. cos they came in massive things didn't they? er what was that for? i was gonna pay for it. is the mike the loaded one? yeah. ya. i think alice might be better off with him . you should have offered to pay for it. well yeah, right. yeah. yeah. it wasn't very expensive. i did. fifty one. mind you , i wasn't gonna . you what? yes. marion that was a very obscene choice. we thought it was terrific yeah. marion. i nearly walked out that's why i put you down the end of the table so i wouldn't have to talk to you. that's nice! cheers! anthony's going, who are they? who are they? i don't know those three. he said, tell us who they are. i couldn't convince him though. yeah. no, no, no. he's seen us before. i've seen him once marion. yeah, but tal , you haven't spoken to him. doo doo dee doo doo . i had a boyfriend once like tin-tin. met him on the way to kingston . erm what this boyfriend? yeah. you got looks like tin-tin. ooh lucky! yeah, he dragged me all the way to london to go and buy some beef. and she was just like which one's alan? you told us not to tell you. oh she she did what? weird! why is she still pumping? cos it takes a while for the steroids to like work down. they're still in her system. ah ah! i felt a bit sorry for her actually. she does bring some of it on herself though. why? well i dunno, she's just really, i dunno how you can describe her. she is coming from . she is that as well. because she's got no friends though. hasn't she? no. the only thing she's got is a ex boyfriend. her friends have been and gone and she does . she does her like round of phoning people. you can't blame them. we're last on the list. if she's bored and wants to come out . yeah. we're the last ones that she didn't she live with a family? why doesn't she move with other people though? cos no one nothing. i don't think i could . nobody'll have her. what? no one phones her? apart from us, no. i'll phone her up. we'll be getting you to . i'm going to ring her. no, don't. she'll take it from me. how are the people at your house? oh wonderful! going on the b n p march though. you can't see anything wrong in the b who? n p. do they? anti- nazi march. yeah. that's say why they were going past. were they there? yeah. did you go in as well yesterday? about the police and anti-riot police and . yeah.. they're silly buggers though aren't they? they're all violent. what? there's more to it than well honestly they were laying into them so they're just jumping on the bandwagon. yeah i know! it's really bad. just said all the police are horrible because they were climbing every single one. they were climbing over a massive wall to get into a cemetery that they're not meant to go into bloody hell! and they wonder why the police are telling them not to go in there. they're going, oh the police are so rude to us! do they go in there? yeah. which one? it's the one up ? the massive march, yeah. they were on that? i'd laugh if they got fucking beaten up! yeah i know. i'd laugh. they'd run a mile. no shit! you're going out with that lot . did they go to that one? yeah that's what i, why, that's what i said to susannah and she was like don't be ridiculous! it was! they wanna see all these people with their masks on, right massive sticks like that big. course it was for god's sake! they're supposed to be the passives. yeah. yeah. and then they go and burn everybody and all the, and anti-nazis where they what has that girl got on? burn people! has she got a top on? leggings. tights. ah! are you happier now? the poor girl. oh well oh good lord! so what do we need to hang these up or something? erm yes please. to dry. right, we need to get something to put it up with. can we not take them home? are you really gonna carry claire? how are you gonna carry it home zoe? you'll oh! look like a right wally! so we may well manage. ah big deal! you gotta hang it up. erm, sorry, when i said i won't see you next week, that means i won't see you now until the fourth year. oh no! won't you be back? nice seeing you. you leaving? yeah. i'm going through to the third year and i might not do the fourth year. but why? marilyn, buy me cream cake on the way home. this ob , obsession with food it's getting worrying. what are you talking about ? shorty . no i'm won't share! i may get a . are you? my friend gets them when i get go into town. well, well, well mm mm mm, what did you say ? come on! hooray! see their remnants. i know. don't mention . oh don't worry about the lecture. yeah. something like that. well, i wish i had . you can borrow notes and i'll yeah, actually, i think i will do. ta mate. ta darling! see you later. see you later. see ya. i'll see you tomorrow. bye? have a rest of the paper there. will do. oh cathy erm mm, cathy. erm, the one i want. going shopping. no i'll write you some down. lots. what? what? have you lost that one? wrestle. erm suppose we better go then. yeah, it's so much extra time. i don't mind but it's just not fair at all yeah. it's just the time that really, you know, i just wanna get home. you just waste so much time. yeah. it's like half, half an hour, well i mean casually like yeah. that's it. about half an hour, a good half an hour sort of waste every morning, every afternoon. yeah. you wasted two hours a day in and out and in and out of college. that's a lot. yeah. well cycling takes eight minutes. i keep going ooh! ooh! trying to see how, how quickly i can get home. mm. well when you're in a rush. it's like, on tuesday you know, like coming back from r e yeah. had the train at half four and i didn't get off . yeah. and we hardly got in and then you have to yeah it doesn't seem worth it sometimes. yeah i know. i must start using the library . i'm so bad. keep going up to it really is bad you know. at least you have tu , thursdays off. are you gonna do some work? i must do. yeah, erm but, you know, i haven't got any work though. gotta try and do some transcription transcribing . yeah. tonight. mm. try and do . yeah. it's really annoying. but erm i must start reading those books as well. but i'm gonna find it a real bummer. what? gotta tr , like shakespeare. oh. and i've gotta try and look at some poetry. i'm not too worried about shakespeare. cos i know twelfth night, so you can, you ca , yeah, see i haven't got a clue. i couldn't tell . yeah. about three quarters. well yo i didn't know it. you can sort of bluff your way through to a certain extent. yeah. in shakespeare. that's what i did last year. yeah. it's all very strange. what have we got next week? erm dunn, erm kitty said. don't know what he's like. bought my paradise lost in a second hand book and i ga , shop, and i gave it to marion. . oh! what? well she kept moaning saying, oh i wanted those books! so i wrapped them up and gave them to her for her birthday. with her pet plug, or plug pet even . it's so cool. pet plug. pet plug. yeah . hello darling. pet . have you got change on you? oh i'll just have to go to the shop. groovy! and buy some sweeties. ha ah. ah! which is better? ha! ha ha! ah ah. oh it's not so cold now actually, it's not no. it's not too bad. no, the sun's out. oh it was, ah, it was so cold this morning! and i was like joining the traffic trying to do my coat up and i heard this, cathy! i thought, bloody hell is that? and i was carlton. oh! and there was like a massive convoy of people behind him . i know. there's me like in a, trying to do my erm jacket up and trying to keep warm. . my hands were freezing! well i, well i got here and i was hot. yeah. so you'll have to excuse us a sec. oh dear. it's really such a nice smell . all this indian music. they got to . no this is, cos marion and matthew they like indians and they go both me ma , start again, they like indian meals and they've been round to quite a few and they said this is the best one they've been to. this is really, really nice. mm mm. they were really impressed with it. what do you want to drink? coke or something like that? yeah i'm driving. just get me a coke. oh right. it's easiest. mm. i don't think i could handle it. lovely. you can never see, it's so dark out here you can't see yeah that's right. like, coming in and like the windows are so dark but and and ah. one thing about these places they're nice and warm. they want you to drink more apparently. oh. don't normally go for indian much actually do we? mm. don't really think of it. one of the things we're learning to cook indoors aren't we? not like this. this is proper, proper stuff. oh. we had nice erm when i went to angie's they did like proper tandoori chicken with, they made up and erm all these other, they did a er chick pea and something else like indian thing. really, really nice. oh she's , so she's up in sheffield? yeah. really nice. thank you. lovely thanks. er, can i have er two cokes please? diet cokes. diet cokes. okay. on the tab again please, thanks. diet coke? ooh! is your eyesight getting bad mate? definitely. erm, i asked if they were having it in braille and then, and then er feel my way along the page. why you're lovely! actually i had one of the, when we went out with robert i had a phall which is erm it's like you get all, all those different di , dishes obviously not got, you get like little amounts, i don't know how big, erm yeah. and little pots with each one. oh i see. really , really nice. is that for one then or yeah, no one. is it? that's great. really, it's really nice. you get everything there that you want. i was really impressed. i think the last time i came i had erm a chicken thing. a chicken no a king prawn korma i had and it was lovely. which is like korma, it's very mild. oh it actually, didn't, yeah. we had a medium i think we might have had a, or a king prawn curry or something. medium is just, is just nice. what do you normally have with that then? just erm, some sort of pilau rice or something. and where is it? oh yeah. pilau rice or any, well any rice really. get, get a get a couple of poppadoms. get a couple of poppadoms. or get four actually cos they're lovely. you get all the little erm they bring you around all yo , the little chutneys and things. you know, like like pickle oh i see. and stuff. and erm oh that's great. onions and other stuff like that. it's really nice. very nicely done. get four of those. and oh next to my house. can you, can you not see? not really, but no. oh what can i have then? dunno. have the lunch. er er i had duck yesterday it was so long ago. did you? i had duck yesterday, you know. was it nice? what sort? very nice. what peking or no, no, no oh just like roast? yes. very nice. . oh well what are you going to do? oh actually i i think i would go, i'll go for this er mild korma chicken. oh! what are you gonna have mild. with it? very erm mild. oh. yeah, well i don't want very mild. yeah, very mild. oh. i might have the king prawn one actually. king prawn? that's the, that's the medium is it? no, i might have the king prawn korma, but i dunno. but don't i see. where were we? yeah okay. i think well what's i'll have the king prawn korma actually. erm four poppadoms yeah. and then we can get two different rice. you can get pilau rice and a mushroom rice? yeah sure. be nice. pi , pilau and that's and a, and a paratha but i dunno what they are, we haven't had those i must admit. erm just ask them. some sort of bready thing. paratha where are they? paratha in the starters? no. okay. okay? see what that er er do you want any poppadoms? can we have four pla , of the four, four please. plain ones? yes please. right. cheers. it's really nice as well because you when you got they like hold the door open for you and you know give you a oh! you feel very like you know mm! what's the word? chivalrous? is that the, i don't know. yes. chivalrous. cos when you get your takeaway they erm they carry it to the door for you and give it to you when you get to the door, and they hand oh! it to you. it's very nice actually. oh! whe , when we went to the one in twickenham, james really like it sort of go out for a ni indian meal and stuff. quite enjoyed it. okay, i'll bring the sauces for you. lovely. thank you. thank you. thanks very much. okay? thank you. so when's his tour? oh er, it's er late july early august of ninety four. oh! not long really. no. oh. lovely thanks. thank you. again. alright, thank you. i'll take the first one, that one is sweet. it's so nice. you just dip in like that do you? yeah. or sort of put it,wha however really. or put bits on your plate and then just like put this is a, i think this is a lime one. mm! they taste a bit different actually to the ones we had. they don't like, used to have a little . that one's quite hot i think. that's erm something or other. or just put it onto your poppadom like that. easier to put it straight on. mm. so we , with your pensions and things is mum, what about mum does she know what about the state pension and stuff? well mum can draw a state pension when she's sixty or something on what i pay in into the scheme so you oh. get it on one. because she hasn't worked, nothing? mm. well, so and th , and the husband so married woman's like if their husband left them and they're at work well how do they, how are they covered? or are they not? i don't know. i don't know, it's, it's er it's a little harder to say the least. is, if they we , if he's left i suppose she would get the, the single, single person's thing. oh right. but it's not so much nowadays though. you have a the problem if the husband remarries. yeah. er, er, you know, who gets the i suppose it's pretty difficult really. no you can't. sorry. erm, with mum i i i is fine because she could from my point of view so, and also as regards the, if anything happens to me, then she gets a pension from the bank she gets oh! a widow's pension from the bank oh right. so that she doesn't so we get nothing for oh right. it's quite good to work for a big concern like that then really? oh yeah. and of course even that's going to change as time goes on. really? so what happens like, with me? like teaching? do i need to do i, they don't do anything well you may have , you may have to look after yourself in fact. yeah. cos obviously it's different for you. that's the thing. erm er it will be see if you can pay into something mm. er soon after you start your job. yeah. i'll think about it so, say as , say erm, say by the time you're you're probably, mm, i dunno, thirty. yeah, cos i'll be working well i'm twenty one. i'm doing a third year i'll be twenty four mm. when i qualify. seems sensible to start as soon as possible really. well you can start off with you see, a small sum as regards an insurance policy. yeah. then take the twenty five or thirty years. is that what you've done? that's how you're paying? no. the two, the two insurance policies i had of erm er the house were on oh right. and when we moved i think we had a new insurance policy to cover and the others became mine. oh right. that's why it's very important cos i haven't got my early matured pay from roberts and the other one in fact matures next year with everything attached to it except for one oh right. of you, for you. yeah. and the lump sum i can then could put in mum's name to avoid. yeah. paying tax on the interest. oh right. and then just utilize a little each year. yeah. oh right. we should get help with james though shouldn't we? well at the moment, i'm working on a nil return for oh. james so, if there is something, all well and good. oh yeah. i don't see how they can justify i mean, anybody, unless you'd got mega bucks mm. you're just paying out that amount of money and suddenly in one goes' a big,bi , like quite a shock. and you might like, on paper, have the money like, by the end of the like, year or whatever but paying it out in one go or well the thing is they're not gonna get any wind of erm what so he's gonna get sacked. gone into erm money . and that way, any interest on erm it becomes tax free. yeah. oh! so again, i have to be careful because real interest is gained on this money that's in grand mama's name. or grand mama's account which is in claire and er nigel's. yeah. there's not that much there though is there? there's enough. really? yeah, it's erm did you have a good time when you went up to king's lynn? yes. it was very pleasant. the the journey up there was erm mum said , your mum's going a bit mental? oh, probably is. to put it politely. i expect she is. does she see your brother much? she sees geoff, yes, but when she calls round. really? mm. oh good. well my, my brother, well i, i'm, i'm happy she's er that she's comfortable yeah. er i in her place. it's been wonderful! mum said it's really nice. mm. what is it? it's not is it an old people's home or is it something she paid for? along , along th that sort of line. erm you have a war , warden who lives on, the premises you have contact with the wardens and if there's any problems you can yeah. pull a cord and they erm use a it's a bit like the one we we , went to see aunty mary's when we to oh that's true. tidy it up. and this is really what so is it, is it private or or erm well it's her trust. oh. it's her trust. so she pays? she pays a certain amount, but erm you get erm subsidised. that's right. yeah. this is really what ma-in-law should have done. yeah. about the same sort of thing. oh yeah. well, just to sit there it's a, i, i, know mum was fed up. sorry? mum's fed up. oh yeah. she was telling me the other day. but it's just but erm i dunno, it's just so awful! well it just turned everything so sour. mm. but it probably was, i mean probably deep down if we didn't see her , probably got on quite well with her. but you, you just see to much of her that now yeah. that it's just got no got no wanting to talk to her or mm! or no , you know, anything. well no, you see well perhaps she's got nothing to say, but she doesn't do anything. i don't know. but the problem i became very angry years ago with that because, i mean irish close and we had the three of you we found that she'd, she just kept on telling us off. and, oh, i'll go in, get th catherine's present, i mean, it wasn't and, there was no thought at all toward no. the children. yeah. and as i say, there was always one i remember that sticks passively in my mind when she came over in one december five weekends on the trot! yeah. mm mm. i was going mental! well that's it. so what did she say to you? nothing. well, i do , i hope but we appreciated claire and steven had her more than we had, but you know, we've had the odd times we've virtually been across there a month or something like, but but when you have a position where you have five yeah. people in the house it's very stressful. i'm sorry, you know, the woman, i, er, i've tried to tell her in no uncertain terms there yeah. isn't a space there. well not if it's not designed for it. i said to her, i was saying it to mum earlier, if that was me with a family, i'd wake up to the fact that you're pa , i, i i, there's too many here. mm. and course it's reached the point of no return now where she she can't do anything for herself. well there's nothing , yeah. you just can't do it. but if we, what she has done is soured the relationship with us mm mm. between claire and steve, and also between claire, steve well it's and herself. yes. which is such a shame because like, we all,wi , we all get on really well with william. sure. you know, like more, more brother,si yeah. brother sort of sister thing sort of thing than anything else. but, you know, you don't wanna keep her off. mum and aunty, you know, mum and aunty get on well, and we all get you know, you get on with them as well, and all types of stuff. but there is an underlined current there mm. which is erm, mum is aware of. oh definitely. but you know the situation is it's like mum should not expect just because claire and steve go away that it's immediate pack your bag it's gonna co yeah. and, and settle down in brentwood. i'm, i, i'm sorry. it's happened too many times now that she's you can really just, you can't break it. you can break it but the thing is that i warned her, er, you know, as long as they get through to her hold on that that's very nicely set up if she twiddles her yeah. and will continue to, to, to, erm so that the, the, the set-up should never have been created by her. very, very difficult. well that's why i said to you, and, and laura, er to james, no way would we get ourselves in that position for you you have your lives to lead yeah. get on with it. there's no point ruining a good relationship by that's right. yeah. things like that. just turns everything sour. so how was your weekend ah. in sheffield? did you go wa , get around to see much at all? erm, not much. what did we do? the friday we finally got there at about the traffic was so bad because friday night as well. you'd gone up in, oh yes. erm do you want a bit more? no, i've had, i've had erm two already. erm we went out go on. can't remember. can't remember what i want now. right erm could i have the er the mild korma down here please? chicken korma. yep. okay. and the king prawn korma. and the king prawn korma. do you want another ? not for me thanks, no. erm what do you want the, the the paratha pi , pilau, yeah. one of those do you? just one of the paratha yeah, just one. and, we wanted? one pilau and one mushroom one pilau and one mushroom and one mushroom rice. one pilau rice and one mushroom. and one mushroom rice. yes thank you. do you want any nan bread? do you want any nan bread? no, i'm fine thank you. no, thanks a lot. right. thank you. okay? one chicken korma, one prawn korma, the er pilau rice, mushroom rice and a paratha that's it. lovely. thank you very much. lovely , thank you. yeah so, friday night we went out with her friend helen and another friend where she works, and this other guy. it was really good actually. we went into sheffield right into the city and went to a pub. it was pouring down with rain though. so heavy! we got so soaked. we couldn't find a taxi so we thought well we may as well start walking. yippee! oh there is it? oh! what's happened now? looks a bit dead to me. ! i had a little chat with an old man today about his flowers. so he smiled at me. yeah, so he was cutting his like flowers off, so i said oh they're really nice. he was telling me that they'd died of the frost or something. but he gave me a good smile and a big goodbye when i left him so. oh i see. where was this, down lincoln avenue? jus , just there gloucester road, i was just coming back from witham. it's the roads you know where our house is? just yeah. the road sort of, sort of here. oh! i see. yeah. that's where it was. only takes about takes about ten, not even that, to get to witham station to get like to london and kingston and e all your other sort oh i see! of stuff. just sort of up that way. oh yes. so that's good so it's quite good isn't it? so it's quite, cos i mean strawberry's hill's about twenty five, twenty minutes, like the station, walk away. so it's easier to go to witham. you have to change mm. at twickenham though, that's not too oh oh. bad. but you can get to london in about twenty, twenty five minutes by car. oh. that's alright. and as well, as vicky's on that line as well . vicky . so i can get straight down, she's about four or five stops away from witham. oh yeah. so i must go and see her. i was thinking maybe next weekend i might or meet her for the day yes, you must. or something. yeah! well you'll have to go down there. and she goes to richmond quite a bit as well. and dave, her boyfriend's just started at roehampton. so we're all sort of in the same, very yes, oh yes you must close vicinity well so we're all gonna go out for dinner or something. we said yeah. when we're all settled in. so i must give her a ring this week actually. i didn't realize how close we were. i'm so, i've no. got no sense of geography, like, i just, didn't really, haven't got a clue. you should, you should ge , if you look on a map you can, you can judge where i know you can, but really i can't i just want a detailed like, even a detailed train map. yeah. cos er, all the ones they have on the trains have got like strawberry hill and all the, that's all included, but then you buy a general map and we're all sort of cut off. well then yeah. i haven't got a clue where i'm going. no. as for buses, i er, just haven't got a clue. i never used one before until i came here . well, it's one of things you have to, i think you learn fast about er u using a honestly i train for i really haven't got a clue. a form of transport. so i don't even know names of roads, just tell people where i'm going. yeah. haven't you supposed to er, er, have bought a local map yet? yeah , but i'm hopeless ! mm mm. i just like, i just like, i know places, like i was told when i was meeting the girls yesterday, i didn't know what road i was going on i was just telling like, people names of the pubs and luckily this, like, bloke behind me getting on the bus, said oh you need a like, a seventy p or something and that's when i knew where i was going and everyone's like telling me where to get off, everyone gestures to me. i'm, they must think i'm so thick ! i just sit there looking completely lost waiting to see this pub go by before i know i can get off the bus . and that's the way it goes . oh right. bit of a hopeless case come to think of it. maybe you should take a map with you cath, because then you're able to follow the, where you are. it's just such a worry though. well no, no. no, no. take the, take the map with, stick it in your bag. i just tell everyone i'm new in the area. so i just say i'm really new in the area . so my taxi driver like whizzes past my house, i go, oh i'm new in the area. the thing is do , i don't think i'd know. i wouldn't know how to get a bus . i wouldn't have a clue where to go. oh no, i'd, i'd , i probably wouldn't either but er er, the thing is, it's the he e , having to live here for well say, at least three yeah. years it's really matter of getting hold of a map oh yeah. a a and using it. i'm working my way slowly but surely ye you should sh how to get around. how we doing for time? mm. not bad. it's always busy. it's twenty five to ten. ho oh! my god! mm mm. oh! it smells so nice. well , okay. you'll have to take mum out for a nice indian once she feels better. what's happening for james' birthday? i don't know at the moment. i haven't even thought about it. at least he doesn't want a party. you're safe no, oh with that one. well the thing is, er, i, i can it's quite nice how sensible he is in a way. i, i think he's drawing into his shell there as regards friends outside the family. i think he realizes that er there's a heap lot of trouble out there yeah. er er he could become involved yeah. with if he just let go yeah. cos he's quite good in a, but it's so easy to get wrapped up with, obviously at that age it's very impressionable and very like they, they must look so big to a lot of people that they go out yes. drinking or whatever, and causing trouble. the thing is that , really, that they all they've done is show themselves up. cos mm. i, i was surprised when i heard of sort of the things that had happened. yeah. i'm sorry, but, you know, they're i'm impressed with the warnings. for phonings, warnings and phoning everybody up though. yeah sure. sure. i think that's re , cos that's he the only way yeah. cos the majority yes, you're right. haven't got a clue yeah. no. what anybody does. yeah i know. ah yeah, i, i would think myself that i was also, er rather sorry that the boy doing had just shown how silly they silly. are. even in somebody else's house you yeah. just show respect. oh, yes. i mean, no matter what you're doing yo , or where you are you just show respect for other yeah. people's property or and the other thing is what, i just wonder what's gonna happen on this trip because erm, some of them are away aren't they? mm. i hope the master i think the teachers are gonna have to be there. well, they'll be i think they're gonna have a tough time. thank you. thank you. chicken and prawn. thank you. korma. have two more cokes i should think. yeah, two more, do you want another diet coke? yeah. right. can i have a another two diet cokes please? thank you. i think the teachers co , but i think the teachers realize what they are like. i think they're just gonna have to be really, really strict with them. well, well they would be o , they're representing too many people for them to misbehave. well i ,. i, i hope, in fact, that i , if one does th it's no ignoring it yeah, well the till it thing is, if one does in fact, they, they'd, they'd kick him off in fact and straight back yeah. to the u k. but it's such shame cos it's, i mean it's such a chance of a lifetime i just wish the trouble mm. would stop. i think you cos i don't think, er no, i don't thi , there didn't seem to be any hassles with william's lot. no, well but er it, it, it's it just strikes me as being a very, very immature when you're in another person's house yeah. lovely thanks. thanks. another person's house and you really just start wrecking the place systematically. yeah. it's sick! you can turn them off . well it's very jazzy in the surrounding. oh yes. i think i'll have those in the bedroom window. did you put my red light up yet? i was telling adrian that, you were putting a red light up in my bedroom that i as long as your brother kept coming home with all his friends . and then martin turned up, and then you turned up and my dad's like i'm sorry, what's going on? yes. that's it. come on mate, i'm starving! no, no advances on his, on his salary soon. it reminds me a bit of, d'ya remember that place we stayed in brussels? like und , that was underneath? d'ya remember that res , you know when we went to brussels and stayed above the sort of indian restaurant? oh yes! yes i do. thanks very much. yes that was a little bit out. but, ah yes, i remember. yes. yeah. cor! you have a long memory. certainly have. it's there somewhere. do you remember it? yes. that's erm, that's quite a while ago actually. well yes, a couple of years ago. it was when james went to russia. oh! that was it. er near, near er skiptia oh yeah, that's why he wasn't there. near skiptov oh that was it. robert was in, at, at, university. yeah. oh that was it. she must have been away so we took flight. yeah. that was good actually. it was quite nice. except of course, i er, i, i couldn't read my road map there in, in brussels. my goodness me! was a bit of a mare wasn't it? ah! it was terrible. because the thing had changed so ma , so dramatically from when i was across there, that was the first thing that stopped me. yeah. and secondly, as regards where they were the road maps didn't seem that didn't coordinate that yeah. well. has he got a job? i do , i er, well i presume he's still working in fact, with this er with the bank. well i think the problem with, with what they have in brussels now, they have so many underpasses in fact, and er, motorways that if you you come off the wrong it's a nightmare trying to get back mm. on the damn thing again. well i can't even find the m twenty five ! no. i was surprised it to ,we well going to this place yesterday er, on the directions we were with tammy, she was reading them out and we come off the m twenty yeah. five on the m four, the m four we look for er er exit eight is it eight? yes it is. after that, we started in trouble. we went into the village of that's right, we went to, saw the signpost for bray, they said, when you come al , along the road, erm you'll find a signpost before the motorway, er, sign for the motorway on yo , to, to, to bray. oh yeah? bang! we were on the motorway where's this bloody sign! so, we went along for, about five minutes, couldn't pick anything up so we stopped and asked this, someone where mo monkey island was. oh you have to go back down there and turn er, left underneath, underneath the motorway. but, when we came back, yes, there's a sign there, but it didn't tell you the other side, you have to come okay you have to lose your way, come back, yeah. that's it. so we we, we turned down this road, through the village and we couldn't find monkey island. oh! oh ! oh alright. fair enough. so we stopped again. i went across and yes it's, you have to go back er a a a again, and when the road narrows, just after the, the, the narrow in the road, you take the first left. so, up we go the road narrows straight past the first left, there isn't a sign for monkey island at all. mm. i said, what the bloody hell's happening here? so went in the car park, turned back took the first er er, er well i did a right then yeah. there it was, suddenly at the end of the road, monkey island. but you know, everything else said it would be signposted, yes it's great. well it would be, yeah. ah! really great! and we weren't the only ones who said they lost out cos it er i'm not surprised. terrible! terrible! so what is it, a, an actual island? it's an actual island, yes, and you see and how bi , quite big, it must be quite big. is it big? it's not that large, but it's,yo yo get a you just take it over for the weekend? well, we, we, we,mo most people there, there were nineteen of us, but there were a few other people there on, on the place itself, and what you have is er, a bridge from the mainland across to the island yeah. the th , the, the thames in fact, must go underneath. it's quite a fast ride and it's quite high too oh i see. because of the water. but this was a boat was saw s , over the up the side of the mainland, in fact, which had been er whether it had been tied up too tight in fact i wo , now, now for leeway and the thing had just sunk. oh. oh blimey! yeah th , the water level's just really? just a, you know, way up above the the main er thing, yeah. but, there's the the main, er, hotel that you book into and you come away from there to the dining area and erm and the reception oh i see. oh quite pleasant. must cost them a fortune. mm mm. d'ya get everything paid for? everything paid for. well i gather everything's paid for, all, all the all yo , if the clients had to pay for anything it would be for one newspaper and one telephone call home that was all. erm did they like your phone bill from erm oh crikey! they won't be paying for that. where was it? oh bloody geneva, er, switzerland. that's it. i couldn't think where you'd been to . oh. no,i , it should be that. the worst of it in fact, er, as i say, friday evening i didn't have a lot to drink i was determined not to have a lot because i, i find the reaction it's not worth it just for one week is it? and then sa saturday, well, i went, well this morning i went through some, i got up at half past six i did some why d'ya get up so early? you know just to well ease myself in really. i, i, i woke up at half past six, i got a call mental man! er, no not really. really ju , just, it just, i, i got everything ready, i was out. i had breakfast at seven sent up, up to the room, ah and then just watched the, i, oh yeah, watched a bit of television news, put some music on the television. cos you can put the channel just to show the time and oh right. and one or two others. oh that's right. erm, and then, i, i got out the room about er twenty to nine. oh! i was one of the lucky ones because they were having done that the others in fact left it until later and in fact they took, they, they called up for time. ah oh. you know. you're not as dumb as you look are you? no , no. well the thing is, i got caught once before in the other place when i went to manor of the groves where i tried to book out erm and found i was late for the first erm ,. first erm meeting. give your apologies as you walk in well yes , and i thought well, you know, okay, i did it because i was wondering if you know these, these , v p's v p's, yeah. sits down and says . so this time i was determined not to erm, get caught. and it's paid off. it was a, a nice place. nice and sunny. ba , i had yeah. lunch, we, we had a, er er, from half past twelve through till till quarter to two erm and then went back inside. but you, you sat outside for the best part of quarter of an hour, twenty minutes, cos it was so sunny. and it was a when the weather's nice it's just lovely, really nice oh it's beautiful! yes. it's just and it's so, it's like it was raining the other day when we went to go out and just could not be bothered. it was really mm. pelting down. oh it was when we were gonna go to the cinema and i phoned marion and i said no, i really cannot be bothered, it's just pouring down with rain, had to yeah. get the bus and i thought, oh er so luckily lisa sa , like they said, oh don't be silly we'll come and get you. so luckily, they like drove round and picked me up oh i see. and just brought me back again, which is fine. right. but , just when you've got no transport and it's mm mm. pouring down with rain it's it's just such an effort to motivate yourself to get up to oh god! yeah. it's like when we had no wa , like heating or water, it was such an effort to get yourself up yeah. to get ready to go out and the yeah. just, cold showers and stuff are like oh bloody hell! not on my list of like pleasurable er no. things to do. just like, no way! no i i mean,we , i say, we sat out there and the peacocks are there peahens. oh yeah! oh really? mm mm. i see. i say, it i , it's nice, i mean, unless you you really know about it you have no idea at all. no. no idea. i suppose a lot of business might be done through word of mouth as well. mm mm. if anything. the kind of thing you ought to do with with mum is like, you could probably go down one sunday and have a, have a, you know, have a lunch. it'll be yeah. visit it's not that far is it? well it took us, as i say, an hour and a quarter. pick me up on the way. ha, ha, ha! joke! i see , so we go round the m twenty five, up to the m four yes! yes. any minor detour. any minor detour. there'll be convenient roadworks at twickenham. i see. well i got one or two postcards of the place, you know, the, i got er yeah. a description of the place. it's er, only got really a hotel, monkey island, that's all. oh oh! so very good. this is lunch monday, oh it's monday to well you got the number anyway. well, yeah. we'll have to make a booking. right. lovely, thanks. er er now then food! here we go. this is hot is it? that's a bit, yeah. don't touch them. no, this? yeah. it is hot. put your hand on and see if it's sticks on like burning flesh. no, i don't i don't know. no this is a wee bit hot. oh yeah. mushroom rice. yeah. and pilau rice. okay. fine, thanks. lovely, thanks. the paratha mm. lovely. we can share it. yes. certainly. chicken korma. yep. lovely, thanks. should have thought about it and got a different sort of erm temperature thing in instead of two kormas. oh well not to worry. well okay, not to worry. what korma's that? king prawn. oh. lovely. thanks very much. enjoy your meal. thanks very thank you. much. thank you. right. alright. i'll just do half of this and then eat it. actually i was gonna have that, that bit. save it. yeah. cos ,. yeah, that's boiling hot. help yourself. ooh it's lovely! no, i, the thing is erm i'm not a very hot curry man so i no. just sort of this is mild . nice bit of bread.. oh no. that's nice actually. is it? bon appetit. mm mm! it smells, can you smell on the food, it's lovely. mm. weren't, although erm i was told that my father died of that so that er, i should do you mind what, from smoking? cutting down? from smoking. did he? oh i didn't realize. i mean he died of, cancer, cancer of the lung, cancer of the lung, yes. oh i didn't realize it was that. oh i see. mm. i didn't realize it was from smoking. and they said that er yo , you're you'll be war , the signs would then, in fact, that er there was a link up mm. with that. and until that i didn't reali oh i didn't realize he died cos i, i, i, carried on smoking for a number of years after that. well you never think it's gonna happen to you as well, for, i mean, anything. you never ever think but the thing is, with a number of these older people that smoke i, i think they probably had mainly better tobacco, er, there's probably too yeah. many bloody chemicals added yeah. now that do have a, a, sort of a lasting effect. yeah. i mean the majority of them now it's not even worth them stopping, and i mean, most of them are like in their eighties and not, er eighties and there's like the amount of damage they've done well, it, it, it, it's terrible it's by them stopping it's not gonna really do anything. it's the only, the, well they probably ta spend about you know, half an hour of that trying to get up and stop the coughing well,ma , you know mark who stayed with us? oh yeah. his chest is so bad, it really ma , it's a bad smoker's cough. oh. horrendous! and he, he reckons he smokes way too much. mm mm. but basically that's because of well yes, the his family, you know family, yeah sure. sure that's always outlet. sort of understand, yeah, something you've, you know, why he does it. which is really sad. he's a really sweet guy . but erm just thinks too much and smokes too much. well well i do , i heard it over the weekend in fact, that i can er, have er, another bupa medical to start with. really? er, yeah. at the place just not far away from er, where i work. oh that's quite good. so i , i mean, i've got to go in for that. did you, what, do you have to pay for it? no, the bank pays. i see. oh that's really good. every, yeah, well one can have it every two year, er oh. having said that, the last one i had was er i had at le , i think at least four years ago. yeah. so yes, it was very nice indeed. that's lovely, thank you. very nice. that's very enjoyable. i do apologize for the delay. that's alright. that's okay. you're a bit busy in here. that's okay. no problem. i see you've got quite a full house here. you came to us highly recommended anyway. yeah. thank you. thank you. ooh! thanks. thanks. it's quite nice to get checked out and then, to know that everything's alright or thin , that anything that's wrong can yeah. be stopped if you get it, if you stop it early well enough. well i think what's that for? it has a, don't know what it is. i suppose they must put these in the the oven i would yeah. think, is er right? they have loads of them. put them on most of the tables i think. probably save them loads of money as well. oh well. alright?? no thanks. doesn't it? suppose what? they've got loads of money if they they sort you out oh sure. now? yes. yeah. that's right. so what do you want for sweet? i don't know. i might have a sweet actually. mm mm. mm. i think it, you've got to have one for a change. oh right. okay. oh that's lovely. i'll just settle for that. they're steaming actually. well you get them they're really, really hot. there you go. lovely thanks. right, which one? okay? thanks a lot. they're lovely! they're so nice. phworgh! oh lordy, lordy, lordy! a novel way to use your oven isn't it? cor! it's gorgeous! mm. mine's not gorgeous. that's gorgeous! bit of a . round the ears. round the ears. mm, it'll clean up. yeah. yeah. that's all we came here for, you know. well, yeah. cocktail. cocktail. really. no er, no it's no er lovely actually. it's all lovely . yes. i'm really beaten now actually. yeah. well it's a it came at the right time. e each of them approved. yeah. am i still covered under bupa? i think so. erm, i, i wa , when i get into work on monday i'll have to find out. i'm not ill or anything so don't worry at the moment . er, but i , i, i, i think erm i think had it out up until robert is baby. he, he's joined his own wo , he's joined his own. he joined his own, but i mean when he was at college. yeah. i think he said he was covered actually. well i don't know. well i'll find out so, at least then er, if there is, you know, you're yeah. aware of, of what yeah. one can do. well, it's, it's very, very handy actually. oh sure. it's a very good thing that's right. if you've got the money, sort of, the means to do it well i think then do. the bank pays and it yeah. comes out from from ye from my tax. yeah. i do , i'd, you know, from that point of view, as regards er health in this kind, but to know that you're covered rather yeah. than er oh yeah. er ha , have problems er er er, er when, when you definitely require something. it's so much easier. especially like my tonsils and stuff. that was like the day i had them out was the day that my first n h s appointment would have been and it it's like, you know yeah , er, yeah. what's the point in waiting around? well those tables things are quite good aren't they? those little hoover things they use? oh yes. over there. mm. very interesting. well it's different innit? mm. much quicker though. .not very big actually is it? big restaurant. no. i would have thought it would have ex extended by the door no i don't think it does. but it doesn't. it's the ah perhaps to the toilet. there's loads er like, in the window when we, like newspaper articles and things where it's been recommended and stuff. ah i see. for, you know, they all, all put them up. well d'ya know what i haven't to your place yet, the, fireplace. i haven't put the up. oh yeah. well you can do that before you go. i just hate lying, when you suddenly hear these things come down on, just have visions of like a a po pouring out. yeah i, i, i think what it is, it probably needs a clean. definitely. and er i was gonna, er er, look up the thing. don't, it doesn't work apparently. cos jim who was in there last year said it didn't work when he was there. oh oh. so i don't, i don't know if it's attached or anything, i don't know. i'm not sure. i haven't been gassed yet anyway,so i don't think any gas or anything's coming out. no. and you'll find your stuff's staying there? no i kept a couple of newspapers but er well i've, i, i bought a stack with me in fact it's . so, so, if i i know, i wondered why you brought the gazette, i thought strange! no, you can have a read of it if you like, but i'll scrunched the others up there, stuff them in there, stuff bit of local news. eh? bit of local news. bit of local news. mm. stuff . oh. seems like ages since i've been home actually. it's go yeah. time's gone quickly really here, really quickly. but on well the other hand i , it does seem, seem well you've been occupied here haven't you yeah. really? er, that's the thing. but then, it just seems like ages since i've been home. i think i've spoken to mum nearly every day this week actually. yes. she kept phoning me up to tell me about crowded house tickets and that she couldn't get any. i can't believe that we're not going. so gutted! i mean, he doesn't like them! no. he never liked the band. and he's going to see it. and i can't even get one ticket. go and buy myself one . i'm gutted! i really am. you'd think he would either apply for another one or, or let you have his. i've told him , if anybody's ill and his offers on there i'll be there. it's just such a shame because th , the one day i knew they were playing it was james' birthday. oh. and it seemed to silly to get on because obviously something was gonna happen. yeah. and i didn't know they'd done any extra days. but they added them and nobody told me. oh. i'm not happy! are they that good? definitely. only band i want to see playing in the world. how far are you up to? oh i think i might have finished my tape actually. no, no, it's still going. only got a little bit left. oh really? yeah. for sat , for, for next week i've got to transcribe some of it and do it. as part of my project. what is your, is your ,ha ha , what happens then? yo you listen to this then do you and type up? i, er er er well yeah i've got to try to transcribe it. oh. your desserts . lovely thanks. okay? thanks. mm! well have a a cool thing. actually indian sweets, i don't fancy that at all. a bombay cassata lemon delight, phworgh! orange delight. that's sorbet. that looks interesting. cointreau flavoured ice cream formed in a miniature replica of a cointreau bottle. erm mella mentha creme de menthe italian liqueur ice cream. no. yuk! coconut supreme. coconut ice cream. yeah. i don't fancy coconut thank you. and mango , exotic mango sorbet filled into a half mango skin. oh dear. you like mango don't you? yes, i like mango, but i think i'm gonna go for one of these yo , had across here. i'm having er er, lemon. yes, i, i was looking at that one just now. what's the other one down the bottom there? orange. orange delight. or a bombay cassata. delicate blend of can't read this blood thing here! mango, pistachio, and tutti-frutti flavoured ice cream sprinkled with cashew nuts . no, i tell you what it is, it's the light, it's too dim. it's like our one in the bedroom. no, no, you're just blind mate. old age. old age. thank you catherine. that's a bombay cassata, what's that then? i've just read it to you, you blooming okay. banana! yeah, what's it say? combining a delicate blend of mango, pistachio and tutti-frutti flavoured ice cream sprinkled with cashew nuts . yeah i'm gonna have bombay cassata done. yes. what's for you? i'm gonna have a, a lemon delight, i do believe. a lemon delight. okay. i do love a lemon sorbet! okay, one bombay, one lemon please? at the double! wo oh. that's a bit threatening there. on you get! mm mm. right. and two elephants to take us home please. indian, of course. indian, of course, yeah. er, er right. no, could we have one we , lemon delight and a bombay cassata please? is it possible just to have a glass water? lovely, thanks. you're splashing out there aren't you? oh! it's gotta be done. it's gotta be done, yes. you're doing it. i can see that. wahey! the sky's the limit! i only order water when i'm not paying. how would you know i'm not paying? cos i'm gonna run out of here ! i take it we're leaving pretty quickly? no i, i had a feeling that i was gonna get landed with the bill there. dear oh dear! it's the reason you came to see me. i thought it was a matter of going dutch. i dunno. that's only on dates, you're my father. is , oh oh. you that doesn't count. well let's see if i've got any money. my god! i think i paid it in. makes me laugh! what a joker, eh? mm mm. but those tender young hands will be plunged in those dishes yet. i'm used to it. i do the dishes every day. quite a dab hand at the washing up at the moment. yeah. yeah. got a lot less at home than erm i'm not doing, i'm not doing it, i've piled it all up and left it. yeah. well a cup of whatsername stuff i poured down the sink upstairs rather than get it kicked over because if they come back in a silly state then they'll knock it all over books. sure. oh so don't worry about that. that'll be their books upstairs. ah but it's silly because the thing is,th the they're, well the,th those,th those two rooms look as if a bloody tip has hit it! oh yeah. well that was the room as well that we had the leak from so then we had the neighbour up there. there's a massive erm i don't even know what you call it, of dope like oh yes. this, er in there because i, i hid that because i mean, i don't know er like if anybody, i mean i only know what it was cos somebody told me yeah sure. like if anybody else saw it it just looks like a piece of dirt. and it was, honestly, it was such a mess and angie and i were like, oh this isn't our room. oh this isn't our room. we had to like tell her about five times so they knew it wasn't our room as we like took this guy in it was like books, everything was, there was so much crap on the floor, we had to get through to get to the radiator so that our next door neighbour could try and like stop it from leaking. oh dear! so embarrassed in case they thought it was us, and you know like, really embarrassed. i saw him the other day and he said ah yo , have you, not leaking yet is it from that radiator ? he was really friendly actually, he got him out, and it was quite, sort of good to help us with it, you know, i just didn't have a clue. especially when you have like, we had boiling water pouring out of there. you know, like trying to stop it with our finger yeah, sure, yeah. and it was ju , it was burning our finger yo , yes sure. and squirting and they the yeah, they had like like three towels. it's only , it's only a little thing isn't it, in fact, with the thread on? yeah, that's what fell out. yeah. i mean, i dunno, obviously it hadn't been done, or maybe angie undid it too much or whatever. undid it too much, yeah sure. yes you'd have to be and then just it was, it was literally spurting out yeah. and it , we thought it would stop, but obviously, the water's no, no, no. been pumped through pumping through, yeah. and course it's got, pushing it so we still had all this boiling water yeah. and we didn't think, and sort of, then we realized that had to sort of like turn it off and that might help a bit, but boiling water, we're trying to stop it with our finger. and of course the pressure of the, the heat was just like killing us. mm mm. soaking wet towels everywhere, water spurting on the wall, and like everywhere oh god! yeah. and you got, in the end we just laughed. and it, it came through to you? it came through yours? yeah. because, i suddenly, oh that was even funnier because i was i suddenly went angie i think we've got a leak, and it was like all on the, all in my windowsill and sort of like came down and then, luckily, she said she only realized because of what i did last year, leaving my sink on, that it goes through the floor, otherwise, none of what, we wouldn't have realized. so, then she said, oh right, i'll get on your desk just to check that it's alright, so she got, took my work essays off, and she got on my desk and then i said, oh i'll help you down, so she sat on my desk to get off and of course it's not attached oh! no! so she leant forward and whole thing went flying forward. angie went flying off, my pens went everywhere! oh god! and we just lay on the floor laughing because it was just getting from bad to worse. what happened to your word processor? it was fine because i'd moved it, luckily, i'd oh i see. and then about erm from about an hour, about half an hour later after we'd sat down we're just laughing our heads off because the gi , they'd gone down the pub and we said no, we'll have a quiet night in. and then about half an hour later mark turned up completely out of his face! oh no! cut leg cos he'd kicked a car and his leg was all bleeding so he had to oh! like try and mend that. then he went to go to the loo and nearly did a complete backward flip down the stairs. oh god! and then he went into the bathroom locked the door and it was just silent. and, like, we left him there for about five minutes and we just didn't hear a thing yeah. cos we were wo , we all got really worried, we're like, mark. mella mentha? bombay cassata? thank you. thank you. i wanted a lemon delight. you lemon delight? yeah. mm. sorry. thanks. didn't think that looked like a lemon delight. and erm delicious! oh! wanna take this stuff as a souvenir? well i'll take the umbrella, yeah. oh. great! tuck in. start. no that's alright. it won't get cold. so of course, it was deadly silent in there for like erm oh it won't get cold! i've just heard what you said. oh dear. i'm on the ball tonight. someone is slowing up. it's getting late. so, like we all, we're all set to barge the door down. we're banging on the door going mark, are you alright? and there was no answer. so we thought i, so we said look, we're gonna have to break it down. course we like, started banging the door and all of a sudden we heard this really like , laugh, you know mark oh god! having a laugh on our behalf. so he came out and we really slapped him hard ! we thought that was oh god! really out of order. but, and then he, he's like, we left him on the sofa and said oh mark we'll be back in a minute, like, turned all the lights off hoping he'll like pass out you could just hear him like laughing to himself for another like twenty minutes and we're oh god! in the kitchen going, we just wanted him to pass out. and then luckily, it suddenly went really quiet and he obviously wore himself out and like was having a sleep. and we're just like, oh god! and then he woke up the next morning and threw up everywhere. oh no! oh dear. and then i, i was coming back from lectures at, as he was like leaving our house and he looked a really sorry state. he'd put this massive like, plaster on his leg and he was going oh i'm a nancy boy cos i've got a plaster on. so we wrote nancy boy all up his leg on this plaster . and he walking round with these shorts on from last night, and his like, dirty t shirt and this big plaster with nancy boy written on it trying to get home. has he found a place now then or is he yeah, he's gonna be in isleworth. which is quite a way out actually. it's what's on the way to and he's gotta , he's gotta come into here has he, every day? yeah. bloody hell! you alright? yes. yeah. i'm just waiting for a lemon delight. so, yeah it's erm i think he's living with marion told him about the house, it's one of the girls who was in english last year with her, maureen, he's living with her and another girl, and another boy. oh i see. he seems to be fine so, it seems to be working out well. too, too long a journey to get drunk every, each night won't you? oh eh? oh he does it anyway. i think he'll just crash at our house. he knows he's yeah. he's more than welcome to crash at ours. i mean, it's quite, it's about yeah, i don't know, he said it's about a forty minute walk or something. or a ten, fifteen minute cycle ride. oh yes. our cycle ride's just about long enough. and he's, he, he he doesn't it's get drive? the worst bit is lincoln avenue and meadway, once you get to meadway it's sort of like you know, it's like yeah, sure. yes. that is, well that is , and that's like the longest, even mm. like the longest bit, the walk into college seems to be, that bit. yeah. cos the rest of it is just basically straight across basically you're just cutting across. oh i see. well yo well basically all the ma , there's like three or four main roads and we just cut straight across it like it. mm mm. and everywhere, like at strawberry hill station and college. and that's you know, the worst bit seems to be lincoln avenue, just seems to go on forever! yeah. luckily, we're no further down, i think we'd die! there's quite a stretch though there. yeah. you can ca , and it carries on for miles around as well doesn't it? joining on the motorway bit. mm. made it for me specially. yeah. quite nice. is it? it's beautiful. mm. bombay so ,si , er er up there will be out now. it's quite nice thought because it, you're getting exercise as well and, and you've got to do it to get into mm. college so yo , you know,yo whereas at home if you've got the home i , it's easier to get, you know, to get in a car. oh sure. the weather's a bit grotty or you know, or you're not feeling too good, it's easier to get a car, you know, to get a lift in with someone. i don't mind cycling. what they've done they've put this onto a warm plate, that's why it's melting so much. oh, oh ah! everything's kept in ovens round here. in these little baby belling type ones. i wonder how much money they make? they do pretty well. oh yes. right. sorry about that. that's alright. lovely, thanks very much. okay. thank you. , i got a brolly as well. mm mm. take that off. go on break it. go on. no, no, no. i shan't break it. there you oh well are. you win it. no, i'll have to give it to you. cheers honey. er mm! gorgeous! is it? mm. want a bit? no i don't really like not really into those sort of flavours. you can have my cherry though. mm. what is it, pistachio i might have a bit of pistachio actually. nice actually. it's nice and light. beautiful! so what time do you expect your friends home this evening? don't know. if they've gone to the see this, to the see, goats don't shave then i doubt they'll be back till a , about midnight, one o'clock, if they get the train back if not, tomorrow morning or something. mm. well they're altogether so i suppose mm. in that way they're relatively safe. so don't sit up worrying about them. but erm they're bloody daft if they did what they did last time anyway! oh yes. cos i was gonna go with them and then a , just would have costed like, quite a bit it's about seven pounds to get in plus your stuff, like,wai , transport there and transport back. blimey! plus, you'll er, you'll have a, like a couple of drinks there, even if it's cokes or anything, but your you know, it'll still be a long night. yeah. but apparently, it's meant to be really good there. really good erm like irish, sort of pub. mm. pub. but i would, i will go there sometime. but i . lovely. mm. is yours alright? very nice. want a bit? oh that's nice. something cold and refreshing actually. mm. cos next, well the week after the reading week we've got, we do the first visit to our schools that we're doing our t p in. oh oh! will your transport be laid on or i don't know what, well the i mean it's all paid for so we'd either depending how many people are going away or whatever yeah. then erm there what's might be a coach. if not, apparently, they've worked out how everyone will actually go to school. so, you'll see. so i'll just see. but we'll be told beforehand, or i'll find out. cos also, i don't mind, mind going on public transport as long as i know how to get there. yeah. yeah. if i'm told to get the whatever bus. yeah. cos i, otherwise i'll be no good at working it out for myself . mm. wouldn't have a clue. but i think, i, i think i'd get a train straight through but i don't really know. how often do you that then? well the train. cos a few people are further out than me so cos angie's just up the road in hamworth. which is like just a se , it's about twenty minutes walk from our houses i think. oh. so it's fine. cos loads of us are gonna be getting back into like evenings when you're really tired. cos what's, well what's quite good is you do a week and then we've got, it's our half term so we've got a week off. mm. and then we do another four weeks. oh. i think the first week is just sort of basically erm we share with the teacher and only do, say, a couple of lessons a we , couple of lessons a day sure. and maybe like read to them at the end of the day or whatever. the, i think, well then after half term then it's more us, we're the teacher and we sort of take it after oh i see. half term. and what sort of age? i'm with erm nine and ten years olds. mm. year five. yeah. i think so. oh yeah. i know, but i've never ever taught that age group before. well thump them one will you? every time they get cocky, thump them! yeah. i've only taught erm seven and eight year olds. so it'll be quite an experience. mhm. it's gonna be so exhausting though. you get, we get assessed on it as well. oh well. you fail those things and you're out basically. is there a, is there, is that a fact? so you really have to have a sort of strong character and in you go. and so yeah. basically lesson pattern stuff. cos when we go in after winter break that's when we'll find out er what topics they're doing so we can plan our lessons and oh i see. fit in with whatever, like their curriculum. well if you want anything er er photocopied or put together let me know won't you? cos i can always sort of yeah. nip down of a a weekend, collect it and then yeah. erm bring it back to you. you know, if you need, it's a sort of trip of a an evening. yeah. oh cheers. well you're nearer than robert was, yes. yeah. cos it's not too bad. it's really handy. i , yeah, i don't mind two hours on the motorway, it's, it's, it's nothing at all. it's a you do a two and half hour stretch there and then a two and a half hours stretch back it's a yeah. rather heavy going. well it's so handy though. it's really like, like a big plus side to it. mm. i mean, especially if james is gonna go in london as well. just so much easier to get just to know that if ever like you know, eight or nine o'clock one night for whatever reason i wanted to come home i could be there like myself, in an hour. oh sure. yeah. or people could be up within yeah. an hour to see me. well just, in another way, it's more of an effort or whatever to get people up. most people that i know have got cars. yes. like martin, and he's got no excuse for popping up. well, i suppose er, he said he'd come down this time, so mm. now he was at richmond. and i phoned his house and he didn't phone back. oh my god! he was down the pub. beast! dear oh dear! and he doesn't even drink! him and stuart go down, they have their half, half a coke and, cos they know the landlord where we did our er oh yeah. clay pigeon shooting. in , he loves it. just goes there, chats to the landlord and comes back burning up down the country lanes as he goes. the er gentleman said, yes approved yesterday, mr good yes they nor they normally let you know there and then the the right. the outcome i mean it's very rare that we do get a refusal . yes. it was rather comical actually because he said er, you must now go and make an appointment to see mr , and i said, well actually we already ha we already have. he said,i'll catch him out on this one . . yes sometimes when we get people that are anxious to start immediately you know we make the of course. interview there there and then even before mhm. we've actually got the the letter back saying, yes we can sign yeah. you onto the scheme. right, okay like schemes there is quite a bit of paper work to do okay. so this is actually this first form here is an application for the scheme yeah. so if you want to start sort of scribing okay. away, and if there are any particular queries on that you want to ask, please do. in the meantime i shall complete one or two of the others. okay. in which case i will suspend this until the talking starts. one query only. yes. erm will my business have any links with another business? erm in the context of the enterprise allowance scheme no no no no . probably not. yeah . . because i i wondered wha to what extent those those links were in that i shall have obviously informal links an and talks with other people who are doing similar things than what yeah, yeah. i'm doing, but they're not formal business links . no no. so that'd no that that's quite alright. please check and make sure i've done things yeah. . i don't know who reads all these forms anyway but erm well th they're there in case they're needed i think you see yes that's it. and the government auditors actually sort of er come round. i i misread previous the word previous word previous. in that. these are these are estimates ? yes yeah it's basically a question there to ensure that people don't just put down that they're whatever they're doing just purely wal walking the streets for twenty four hours a week . yes. i it's to cover the other things like doing the book keeping, yes. doing the marketing and your advertising and general yeah, yeah. networking. it's not just purely . yeah. yes. well i haven't included the advertising of things in that. maybe i should? erm sole trader, yes. previous employer, yes. right. there will be yeah. in that nottinghamshire county council was my previous employer. i've actually heard from them today good. from the personnel department asking for details of what i was offering because the medical reports had now gone to the medical officer. they could see no reason why he would turn them down and they're setting the paperwork in motion to put good, right, right. me on the appropriate lists. so er that's coming. do we have any indications approximate percentage or i've said to them that i'm prepared to work for them. obviously i'm limited by the terms of my erm pension situation. i've said i'd be prepared to work for between two and three days a week right yeah. for them. yeah. i mean that need not necessarily be kept. i could undertake a whole week's worth and then yeah, yeah. do nothing for a fortnight of course. it depends on demand. there's school holidays and . of course. yeah no no that's okay . right. i mean they're all basically for different schools anyway, but it just so of course yes. happens they come under one education authority . it's a it's a rather a debatable thing as to who is actually your employer. that's right. yes i sha i shall have to go and talk to the tax people i know about er the the set up. yeah. right. fine. er this next form is basically one that we have to send to the benefit office right. the d s s, of course. the inland revenue and the tec office. right. i'll suspend this. you would need to be in touch with the the benefit office informing them right yeah. that you are going onto the enterprise allowance scheme as from monday . i i i've got all the necessary papers to do that . you have. it's just a question of i was waiting till we'd had right. this meeting so that it was then yeah, fine official yeah. obviously. well this goes by tortuous route and eventually will get to newark . yeah. erm basically we've just got here your your name okay. can i correct the spelling, it's one . . you know when i wro it's two in surnames and one in christian names i always think. i must admit on every form i've put the two and i thought afterward i'd better . it's a minor thing but er you know. on some of them i've just put john p i think. that's right yes well that's how i'm intending to trade . . yes, yeah. your national insurance number. that is correct. the type of er business you are setting up as a music teacher . right music teacher and supplier of musical services in fact, yes. erm trading name? is just john p in fact . right. and the card that i'm going to do will be have john p you know erm teacher, accompanist right, yes . performer transposer or whatever it's i don't want to limit myself to just saying, i'm a teacher other things as well. no, fair enough, yes yes yes that's that's very very . the address business address is happens to be your home is is correct, yes. your home address,and the enterprise allowance money will be paid from monday the twenty fourth of january nineteen ninety right. thre four right through to saturday the twenty first of january nineteen ninety five. got it, yeah. the first payment due to you which will be credited to your business bank account will be on week commencing the seventh of the february. which will be a fortnight after yeah that's right . the the actual start, yes. i'll change that. the they were going to actually pay fifty pounds a week for a yeah. shorter period then on a reducing scale but the computer can't do it and so unfortunately they'd already printed the forms yes. and so but it it's back . oh i understood the eighty pounds a week anyway . yep. yeah. providing that the forms get down to the computer in london on time mhm. then erm the first payment in some occasions is a cheque direct to you from the tec . i see. then when the cheques stop, then check with your bank further two weeks go straight to the bank. okay. if there are any queries on that you haven't erm received the money or anything just get back to us and er we'll okay. we'll we'll chase it up . i know where you are. yes. so that form we will send off to the various erm departments. right. right. this form here it's just a fairly short one,i could you just tick the appropriate boxes for me. it's a bit of a market survey research . how did i hear about it? erm well i didn't actually hear about it, i'd already known that sch that such schemes existed . right yeah. and it merely occurred to me, actually i was sitting in the unemployment benefit office and i said to them er er at one of my interviews, mm. probably i'd be better off going self-employed wouldn't i? and they said, well in that case you'll need to talk to the chamber of commerce right. so i suppose basically yeah. the job centre . mhm. is that okay? yeah that'll do fine. erm i think i'd have my business later, probably about six months . months , six months. i'm glad you said that cos if too many people said they would have gone on started business without it they might drop the scheme . they might drop the scheme, yes yeah. mm ah i suppose so. i object to these things actually on principal . i i i've refused to do them for notts county council on occasions. i could i could prefer not to say , couldn't i ? yeah you could have done. erm long term health problems or disability. yes well and no. retired on health grounds but i well i mean we we are, yes yes we are aware of the . right so i will say no i don i don't have a long term one, and no i'm not registered. for that one. thank you. right now this next form is the one that we need the bank details. which i just happen to have with me somewhere in here. i seem to have every form the inland revenue has ever published at the moment. ah to the back of the . in the bank manager's own handwriting. ah mm. i have to sign my life away to get these yellow forms. mm. secretary of state cos i mean in in the wrong hands their worth each form's worth two thousand and of course, yes. eight pounds yes. so this one we have to be very careful with it. right the sort code the sort code is and the account number? is repeats account number. and the account name is ? is john p john p. business account. right. which account er bank is it ? there you are. nat west. right. okay that's fine. erm industry code. i looked up that early earlier. fifty three. we have a big directory that we've got to put all these oh i see . depending what type of business you're in. right when erm did you finish actually work with . on the thirty first of august thirty first of august. last year. right. approximately how many weeks is that? erm hang on. september, october, november, december erm we're talking about sixteen, eighteen we're talking about twenty twenty plus weeks twenty twenty one weeks. twenty one weeks, right. and in that time you were in receipt of benefit were you ? yes. yes was it er do you know the the weekly amount approximately?. erm forty four something. well whatever it is the standard . yeah right. forty four. it to eighty nine pounds twenty twenty something pence in total. so it's for just over right. forty four. that's two two and six . one two two. right if you'll just erm check the details . . if you want to just check the bank account cos we don't want the we don't want the money going to the wrong okay yes that's important . close your zero there in case it looks like a six . o one ninety four. yes obviously that's the date isn't it o one ninety four? yes, yes. i never never appreciated that before . no. oh i i knew that . one actually because our other erm accounts are rather similar.. right. business yeah. i don't know oh yes right. seventy two ninety four . yes that's the date of the first pay first payment yes of course. your national insurance number. yeah. date of birth . erm you're male. the industry code . that i've looked up. previous unemployed twenty one weeks. previous benefit level forty four. right. that's correct. signature of applicant. . and the twentieth =ieth one ninety four. . right that's that out of the way. one there is a contract agreement here between you and the north buckinghamshire tec. right. erm there's nothing very sort of horrendous about it. if you just have a take a few moments to . have a read through it. the handout that they refer to here. have you read erm handout number one? it's one of these which i think did i give you initially ? i have got a copy of here that's it. yes. i've actually been through it as you will appreciate. a total of my own expense and ticked the appropriate bits complied with them . fine, fine, yes so that actually refers to that yes. particular account there. right. in which case i will pause this again. the only erm problem i had i think with the basic er terms as outlined in this document are the fact that i'm going to be wor erm intending to work for fif at least fifty of the fifty two weeks in the year at it when of course erm certainly as we'd already agreed on my erm business plan within the summer month from the the end of july until the beginning of september yes, yes. it's highly unlikely i'm gonna get any business at all. right, yes . in any case because of the nature of yes. what is being offered . and the market that it's being offered to. yeah, yeah. er tha that's alright yes. i mean the bas if you're sort of wanting to take any holiday or time yeah. off i mean just keep yes . that's the time to do it, yes. keep us informed and er keep us informed, yes tha tha that's okay. do you want to know about occasional days or you you're presumably concerned with with full periods. i mean it sometimes is that for instance we we have a daughter in york and i have parents in london yes. and sometimes we'll take a long weekend it's really full periods go friday to monday or something yeah. like that. it's really if you're sort of gonna be away for a couple of weeks. yeah. anything longer than that erm it just depends really on the time of the erm your the time of the year or how many months you've right. actually been on the scheme. for example, we need to see you at is it three six er three months and at six months and then again at sort of the twelve months time and then at fif we're always still here and available . and eighteen i think isn't it as well? yes that's right. yes. so it's if it's coming up yeah. to sort of three months and you have to be away and we don't hear from you we think, oh you naughty boy, yes . you might get worried, yes. we'll take him off the scheme because he hasn't replied to any of our correspondence . yes. so er no i'll certainly keep you informed . no that's alright, yeah, fine. right this is the the last form . this is my copy of the form. erm have you been s yes you've been signing on i've been signing on postally in fact . yeah, yeah. and it's been less than it's between six weeks and five months has it? it is it must be yes. erm ooh no hang on it's just over five months . . right so that's six to twelve months . that's six to twelve months wasn't it yes. i must get my glasses changed. they must print their yes. forms on slightly bigger pieces of paper i think. right. er do you have any long term health , no. no. right here you have the opportunities to prefer not to say as to your colour. oh go on i've said it once so i'll do it again. right. it's just basically right. basic details, name and address, telephone number, okay, yeah. national insurance number, date of birth. erm another code number form a directory start date of going onto the scheme, that's today. the end date yeah and forty pounds a week and that's erm the code number for the for the tec. right. so sign and date that one. ninety four. that's it. that's it, right. you're now participant number o one six four two. that's great. one of those numbers to . i'll write it down on here. o one o six o one six six four two . six four two . right. not that i shall probably need it at all. right. well thank you very much . so that that's everything. now as i say erm the next formal sort of contact mhm. that we will have will you with you will be in about three months time when right. we'll er we'll want to see you. we normally on the first three months do it on a group basis okay. but if you happen to have erm an urgent appointment or you're mm. seeing a client on that particular morning yep. then we we can do it on a one to how much notice do you tend to give of these? it's about a couple of weeks. right. yeah. erm but if if it happens yeah. you're saying, well every wednesday morning or whenever mm. it is that i have an appointment mm. with a with a er client then we appreciate the business comes first . mm it it may it may not be in that nature because the nature of of supply teaching work of course is that yes. there tends to be a phone call we're desperate . can you make it? can you make it in half an hour's time, you know . yeah, yeah , yeah. it's a should that occur yeah. i mean yeah. i i think business yeah. must come first before exactly. yeah we apprec we appreciate that erm erm. now at that int er we we'll send you a er a couple of forms but als to to complete, but there's also the main thing that we're really looking f at is erm . how you're keeping yes. up with that business plan . that's right. filli filling in the actuals right. of your erm your cash flow . well the the the actual book is already started and is sitting good, good. up and running as it were and er i shall be i i know already that some of these figures are inaccurate yes. having had rather a nasty shock when i had the car serviced the other day . right, right. it needed new clutch and new exhaust yes unfortunately right which didn't help matters. . the travelling and motoring expenses for two hundred and seventy five ooh the they will be double that. double that, yes. i've just paid three hundred and eighty five over to a certain garage yeah. and that was before we bought the petrol this morning . erm the form that comes out is different to this but you you can use right. put it in pencil in this one if you want and we so we yeah. can on the day make a a photocopy that's all. it's more of a management exercise to of course. make sure that people are yeah. controlling their businesses mm. and their costs as opposed to actually erm i've actually got a a complete copy of all that right. anyway having been you didn did you want the original back erm. or erm yes alright unless yeah. you wanna keep it. we have got a copy as well so oh i see. yes. well ha ha had i known i would have told you not to take a copy you see . that's alright. i i i've i've been these these routes before yes. and i never give out documents that are going to be important without copying them first . no no exactly. i mean sometimes people go to great lengths and trouble mm. in getting a a nice document together and they they would they would like to have it back and so yes. we take usually just take a photocopy of everything . right. have you got the form for the i think the inland revenue? the tax man and it's a erm what i little green booklet called i r twenty eight. ah it's changed colour hasn't it ? what i have i r? twenty eight. twenty eight. i think it'll be one of those here we are. i r twenty eight. yes it's cha changed colour. the form is actually sitting in the centre that's it. which is one of the two that i've got because the other one i've got to deal with is the self-employed national insurance contributions right. form as well, of course . can i just take the numbers off those forms? you can indeed yes. we have no problem getting well that's we have no problems getting yes. them from the inland revenue. they send us lists right. of what's in everyone's . this this came as part of a package right. i i rang hill house in mansfield right. useful how about it. i have another matter to talk with them actually about my wife's liability to class to contributions. there's a a long outstanding erm discussion going on between us and newcastle. it's been going on for about seventeen months now and the in chief man at hill house was rather interested to hear that we'd not actually had it resolved yet, and asked for the reference numbers and . newcastle were on the phone to us within twenty minutes of him putting his phone down . things now seem to be moving. good. to get these from. you can go dow go down to local benefit office mm. we can get a small you know quantity but to actually get well thi this is a complete pack that comes and there's obviously erm from the information that was included with it erm here we are. erm they they obviously run a check on what was actually in the pack pack, right. and whether you asked for anything else. yeah, yes. and does it give an address or ? i think it was nearly your your area . mm. office of course i haven't seen this new pack you know we mm. i've had some of the old individual leaflets. they even give you an envelope for it. it's very charitable it is really. . that's a useful er you know a useful it is. . yeah. get some . it might be an idea to have a supply. mm. yes shall pay another call to our benefit office and say, i want some of those nice mauve coloured i suspect i suspect the local office probably won't because it was they when i rang them here in newark and i said, look i'm about to go self-employed , mm, mm. oh we don't keep things like that it's where do you live? southwell. it's hill house, mansfield. you've gotta apply there . lincoln . so from newark it's probably lincoln yeah. isn't it? yes, yes yeah. normally that erm southwell southwell faces mansfield which rather gets us in the stick you see because we have to come here for benefit office interviews and things like that but you got to mansfield for other things. that's right, yeah. but most of the people who come here for interviews goes to lincoln yeah, yeah. and er with my son particularly earlier on in his career things were going round and round in circles and in the end i had to step in at one point, grab all the papers as they came past as they were and saying,come on. cos one office was playing the other office off against each other. yes, yeah yeah. it was quite amazing. fine. so that's i'm looking forward to this. virtually everything. good. as i say we'll be in touch with you in in that three months time right. but if in any reason you know you wanted to come and have a discussion or there was a problem or er there's anything things are looking clearer now than they did you know a few weeks ago. yeah. fine, great. and so i think i'm looking forward to . possibilities are are definitely there. mm. i can start advertising myself now right, right certainly. and i'm hoping that the local authority will start coming across with a bit of work for me. good. how long did the interview last at the tec. was it a fair was it an in and out quickly or ? erm fifteen minutes. fifteen minutes, right yes . yes. most of which time we talked about organs. i can play you the er recording of the interview right. if you like. it's on the front of this tape . but, no i'd better not had i. no, no. confidentiality. yes. that's er yes alright . yes a very nice gentleman. yes it was john ? john yes. right, yes, yes. they they do occasionally change them around yeah. erm and some people that we we send out sort of tend to be there for either half an hour and others sort of. it possibly depends on the nature of what you're intending yes. to set up. i mean my application essentially i should think was one of the simplest yes. that could possibly be. there's no stuck movements and mm. things like that involved. no i mean we do send the business plan up prior to the to the of course, yes . but even so i think some yeah. of the ones , yes, yes they look at it when the client comes in rather than. i mean we did have yes. one which must have been probably about so thick right. and i can't foresee the chap reading that in a no. and absorbing it and er they just want to make sure mm. that the person there is er actually did write the plan yes. and knows what they're about, yes . but even but even in that case we did have er did have a case with a young a youngish lad who his accountant had written it oh. was very sketchy yes. financial projection side was fine you know right. full of cash flow charts and budgets for three years, projected profit and loss and all . but the written part was only very sketchy mm. on on erm one side of a four and it was obviously wasn't written by a young man right. and erm the they di did pass him but oh. they did obviously have to ask him a lot more questions yes. so hence the interview yes. lasted quite a period of time because they wanted to make sure that he knew what he was doing and everything right. was you know factual within the in the written part. i i must say i've also been er you know very very impressed and er learnt quite a lot just attending these courses that you've you've got running here . yes, yes. it helps to put things that you already knew back in focus yes. and remind you of some of the other things that you didn't. mm, mm. yes so i i at one time to get onto the to apply for the enterprise mm. allowance scheme one had to attend a mandatory seven day start your own business course. right. yes i realized this . this was when they first started wasn't it ? that's right which was run two days a week for over for three and a half weeks. right. then produce a business plan and the interv go for the interview which looking sort of month six weeks yes. before you could actually get onto the scheme. but here in newark because we don't have sufficient numbers coming through no. we tend to do it all on a one to one basis right. and have a back up of the you know the the individual days sort of then in a position yes. to use your judgement as to whether you say to somebody, yeah you must finish this before i'm gonna consider you or yes. yeah okay we'll put your name forward but it would be nice if you attended. mm. but before it was a mandatory seven day course regardless of that person's expertise or you know qualifications . might have been their own company life before they yes, exactly. went unemployed and then decided to take advantage. yeah i mean we do get people who come in on the sort of the friday morning and they've already got their done their business perhaps sought out professional advice elsewhere yeah. they just really need a d discussion with somebody local, get some a bit of extra information and sign on. but to make that person go through a a seven day course and wait a month is nonsense so it is a much more flexible now. because we don't have the sufficient numbers and can't keep people waiting for courses we tend to have these do it on a one to one basis which you get, i don't know . i think from generally from courses are quite good because you do learn something and you're oh yes. meeting other people in similar circumstances and no matter how much you tend to know, you'll learn and feed off each other mm. whereas one to one it's just you and that particular you know business . i've been most appreciative of the erm clarity and incisiveness of 's set out . she's very . she she's a born teacher. mm. should should i think the the the tax erm priv private private tax advice gain is the is the education with her . mm, mm. she she's absolutely excellent. yes, yes. we always get er you know very good erm sort of report back er from the courses that she she runs, yeah. yes. i think it's a difficult subject er in one where somebody's starting up own business who hasn't erm had any experience before mm. that you know book keeping, finance and taxation i it's mm. a a minefield in a wilderness it's a bit of a headache isn't it, yes. and something that one can be quite erm fearful of. i'm rather lucky in a way. i've a father in law who was er for a long time in charge of the erm er financial side of the p a y e side of the er national dental estimates board in eastbourne in sussex mm. and he knows these things. he could he's still good enough to stand in erm sainsburys alongside the till and add up the prices as they go through. yeah. yes. and reach the same total at the end yes. or argue when his total doesn't match hers yes. and he's always right. mm, mm. does he do that as a matter of practice when he goes shopping ? oh yes, yes. he just stands there and does it. mm. click click click click click. i can tell you what it's gonna be. mm. and it is. amazing, yeah, yeah. he worries me . yes, yes. lesser mortals need these things like yeah. calculators to er. makes you very lazy i think. oh i think so. it's rather interesting at the erm book keeping course last wednesday i i did it all without using a calculator because the examples essentially were quite simple. mm. basic arithmetic. yeah. er everybody else used calculators and i was first finished every time. mm, mm. now that can't be because i was that much better at maths because i'm not i mean mm. musicians can only count up to four. beyond that they it's combinations of twos and threes . yes, yeah, yeah. i'm no i'm no speed merchant as far as maths is concerned mm, mm. at all. mm. i think you can get bogged down in in the button pushing and making mistakes . yes, yes yes yes. i must admit i . maths wasn't one of my strong subjects at school and er i i rely very heavily on it to mm. but even sometimes when the calculator is not immediately available and you start adding up the finger er the figures yes. i it's getting slower yes. unless you're doing it. i st i have to use my fingers these days to carry forward the the yes. the er the tens and all this yes. kind of thing. well i'd better get out of your hair. fine. okay well my next appointment's thank you very much for this. actually cancelled. that was the telephone call ah. . get down and do some paperwork . . thanks very much indeed. pleasure. personally i've got better things to do, like being at home. but i believe that the decisions made to go on the trips this autumn have been good ones. i would apologise unreservedly if i thought any of them have been a mistake but i don't believe they have been. any decision that has been made has been with the best intentions of the people of at heart, to maintain as a leading european city and to derive benefits for the people of this community. i'd just like to say a few words on the conferences that i attended. the euro cities conference in , and this is where the tories fall down on the facts, because councillor doesn't really understand what euro cities is about. euro cities is a group of independent cities who're putting pressure on brussels to maintain funding in urban areas after the review of the structural funds in 1993. and, because of that pressure, the pressure that's already been put on, we got good news at . the european commissions director for regional policy said that he'd accepted the submission from euro cities that funding would be made available for urban areas. we need to make sure that that pressure stays on because urban areas, as we know with the city challenge bid and others, have got distinct and unique problems which we need to address. the euro cities conference was also important because it was the founding of that organisation formally and it was important to go there and say to the big monopoly that's emerging between some of the western european cities, the big six, birmingham, barcelona, frankfurt, rotterdam, milan and strasbourg, that they weren't gonna get it all their own way and they weren't going to monopolise those funds that were available for links with eastern europe. i also went to prague, czechoslovakia, hardly sun sangria and sea, councillor but one thing i'll say about prague, and this is where all the arguments about brussels fall down, it's alright to go to brussels and not to prague. prague is a sleeping giant as a city in europe. prague will be the major city between western and eastern europe in the future. there's tremendous under-development in prague at the moment and that's gonna take off. we gave the paper on our links with estonia. we also made links with the region of in poland to develop tourist strategy and also links with a number of cities who were very interested in citizens' participation and are going local initiative. there are a number of reasons why we need to make sure that we are in at the starting post in terms of links with central and eastern europe. because the european commission is making a number of funds available to develop those links, the overture fund, the knowhow fund funded by the foreign office, the fund, the enterprise fund, the fur fund, the tempest fund, all these are in the reportback which i'll gratefully give to the press and also the opposition if they'll bother to read it. but i think there's something more important than funding that was realised at that conference between eastern and western local authorities and that is that we need to be there to assist because we can assist. one of the last speeches that the conference heard was a very emotional speech from a delegate from , russia, within a winds breath of chernobyl. he explained to the delegates there the mountain they have to climb before they even reach the status that we have in britain as local authorities. ten thousand people left the city last year and emigration is on the up. the tremendous problems that they have need addressing and we should be there, not because we can reap the benefits necessarily in funding, although of course that would help, but because we can lend a hand, because we can reach out local authority and in my view that is also what the people of would want this council to do. councillor thank you. lord mayor, may i begin by congratulating so many from the majority group for taking the time to attend today's council meeting. we know that many of them may well have undergone long and arduous journeys, having travelled many miles across many frontiers and indeed possibly even across many continents just in order to be with us here tonight. i'm sure, i'm sure that the good people of will be the first to appreciate the great sacrifice made on their behalf. lord mayor, i would be the last person to criticise either councillors or offices who attempt to represent this district on foreign shores, whenever and wherever such trips are perfectly legitimate. whenever and wherever they result in a lasting benefit to the whole of our district. i would find it difficult, for example, to criticise the three visits made by councillors and officers to brussels. it would be naive for anyone to suggest that politicians in should not be seeking to gain the maximum advantage from the european community. indeed, in recent years has done rather well out of its visits to brussels by both politicians and officers. the millions of pounds this district has been able to secure through i d o is testimony to this, despite the rather luke warm support received at the time from the labour group. if councillor as a director himself, or through senior council officers, had bothered to keep the oppo opposition party fully informed of his visits, he may well have found us, perhaps to his surprise, in full agreement and support. but politicians generally have very suspicious minds and when things are kept hidden from them they tend to want to know why. they tend to ask questions in t in an attempt to find out what is going on. leaving the visits to brussels aside, for i assume that these were entirely legitimate, what do we find when we start to unravel the mysterious secrecy surrounding the civic junkets to far off lands? we find three trips, all of a rather dubious nature, to attend what are officially described as conferences on european co-operation. one to prague in czechoslovakia, a second to florence in italy and a third to olympus in greece, all at a total cost of five thousand to local tax payers. but why, and the people of this district have a legitimate right to ask, why did it take three people to represent in czechoslovakia? and why did the air fares to florence total in excess of six hundred pounds each? didn't councillor travel tourist class? and it does not end there. what is the assembly of eurip european unity policies and regions and why was it necessary to send two representatives to portugal to attend at a cost of over one thousand five hundred. but perhaps, my lord mayor, most intriguing of all, what exactly did the people of estonia, let alone the people of , gain from the visit by councillor , who is said to have undertook an economic and social audit of that country? came to , asked for a briefing on what we did in estonia and then said, can we give you seventy thousand pounds so you can spend on projects in estonia, so they got seventy thousand pounds off your government. one two nine. do i take it councillor that they would not have received it without your visit? i would have thought, lord mayor, that a country like estonia currently has enough problems of its own without councillor but at least the people of estonia are not stupid. they made sure that the two thousand six hundred and seventy pounds cost of councillor was fully met by the long suffering tax payers of . at a total cost to local charge payers of around twenty thousand, some people may think such civic junketing has been terribly excessive but the truth is, lord mayor, that this is just the tip of the iceberg. this is after only eighteen months of labour control and is rapidly becoming the of the north. how long will it be before our labour councillors are spending a quarter of a million on trips abroad, as in ? the controlling group is blatantly guilty of deserting its proper role, the government of our district. at a time when we have child prostitution in our child children's homes, labour councillors are entertaining themselves to sun sand and sangria in exotic foreign locations and in conclusion i would like to make just one comment, that this episode brings to mind a famous quotation in circles. it was made famous by the then labour education chairman who said, and i quote, i am a spendthrift, i love to spend the rate payers' money. thank you. councillor my lord mayor i move under standing order a fifteen b that the vote now be put. i so move lord mayor. seconded all in favour? those against? that is passed by forty six votes to twenty five. those against? those in favour of the substantive motion please show. those against? mhm? carried forty eight to twenty two that is carried, forty eight votes for, twenty six against. we'll move on to the final white paper motion on regionalisation. call upon councillor to move the motion. call upon councillor to move amendment o standing in his name. seconded? call upon councillor to move amendment p standing in his name i move lord mayor is there a seconder? in accordance with standing order a thirteen little c this motion will stand referred to the community and environment services committee for consideration and report unless the council decide to deal with it at this meeting. what are the council's wishes? i move that it be dealt with at this meeting my lord mayor seconded? seconded lord mayor those in favour? agreed? councillor the council my lord mayor my lord mayor, i'm really going to enjoy this one. as somebody who is still under thirty and er like my good friend mister young enough to have a positive approach to europe, i am pleasantly surprised that the people opposite are gonna make my job a lot easier because the narrowness and the anti-diluvian attitudes that we see on the benches opposite explain why, in the last euro elections, the labour party won a resounding victory on the issue of europe. now i'm making a very strong argument in this motion, as is the group, for regionalisation. the reason we want regionalisation is that we are the only country within the european community as it now stands, bar luxembourg and ireland, not to have regional government, regional co-ordination of our economic policies and a proper role for the regions to link across europe. but had done brilliantly. we have got over fifty million, sixty million, pounds worth of grant and aid out of europe. but as we look forward into europe post 1993 we have industries in this city that will be vulnerable. we have a need for regional economic initiatives and what help do we get from the british government, right? we don't get any help at all. if we'd had half the help from british government for crumbling schools we've had from europe, we'd have had a lot more done. there is up and down this country a crisis in the regions that is exacerbated by the british government over additionality. it's a long a complicated issue but it's got to such a head that the complete scheme for regenerating the and the very badly affected coal fields in is being stopped. the commission is stopping it because the british government will not make up its mind on whether it's gonna back the money. it's like the little boy who's got a toy, he don't wanna share it , don't wanna share it, if forced to share it, he'll smash it rather than let somebody else have a go with it. now i was one of those people that represented this city at florence. i represented this city at florence at the cost of two days' leave, and having my pocket picked at the station yes, oh absolutely, it's not all great fun. but i'll tell you what the conference it about. you bozos don't seem to realise it but if we hadn't been there at that florence conference, would not be in the leading position it currently holds with the commission to guarantee further funds and to create a positive role for britain in europe with the commission to wuk look at the issues that are gonna come up in 1993. and the private sector are very happy for us to do that. we have the best policies to get this across, and the work that we've done with and the european commission, and we want to democratise that, is very positive. and to hear members opposite talking about the dead hand of bureaucracy and all these tebbitite notions that oh europe, y'know, i mean, y'know, we're going all the way back to ancient history here. i mean, what help has the british government given us for preparing for 1992? british rail, british rail, that institution we all know and love. they have wasted, because of the government, four hundred million pounds building a station at waterloo that isn't even going to be used because of your government. that money could have electrified railways that would've given industry a chance to get its goods into europe. university. one of the reasons we've got a very good language link is the language univer courses that the university did in the east in the european department, the baltic studies. it's been cut again, as a result of your government's policies, so the technology and the support that we need to go into europe to win in europe to help industry is being strangled once again by your government. so if we look at the positive effects of europe. if we look at regional governments across europe that don't have to go cap in hand every time to some deadbeat in white hall, right, they go straight to europe and they network across europe and they exchange ideas and things happen. what we have to do in , and we've done it very well, and it's a massive tribute to the quality of staff that we've had working on this, that we've done this. we can do one hell of a lot more if the whole of is combined in europe and fighting it's corner because as sure as hell that golden triangle in the south east is not gonna give us a slice of the action unless we take it, and for the members opposite to site their with their ancient out-dated ideas of liberalism, right? the single market needs the social charter, the labour group backs the social p charter, the labour group is ready for 1993 and the sooner you lot get out of the way and let us get on with it, the better. councillor i'm very glad to be having this debate as the last council meeting we er put a motion down on p r which the labour group refused to discuss, and councillor in the summer ma put some release out said he was in favour of it. so i'm actually glad that this is one that you're actually prepared to discuss. now people have been looking at this for a long time. it may or not surprise you that there is already an element of regional government actually in the u k already and since development is the issue that the labour group has raised, we'll take the work of the development association, which i was involved in in the mid eighties and which actually does some good work to actually bring industry actually to this region. and that is a regional body that's been very successful. nobody can argue it. under a labour chairman under a labour chairman who's who's got a nice job somewhere else now, i understand. it's not just about development, there's also a regional bureaucracy actually already in the u k and i'll give you two examples. there's a large department of the environment office in . if we want to define where our urban programme areas are, we c we find it very difficult to set them ourselves. it's not an elected person in who actually sets them cos although he might present, heseltine doesn't know that well. there's an unelected civil servant in who has a large element in deciding where they are, and that is wrong. that sort of decision should be under some sort of democratic decision making ability. counc tonight it was mentioned the actual the work of the regional health authority and, again, i worked for the regional health authority a long time ago. er and it is actually doing a useful job. but who actually appoints people to the regional health authority? do people y do actually local people in actually pe appoint people to the regional health authority? there is another regional body that should be under democratic control, local democratic control. but so i mean i think the case for regional government is definitely there and i'm surprised by councillor , i'm surprised that you said your group isn't seeing it. they are actually a long way behind the rest of europe. this is really happening in the rest of europe. there's gonna be a lot of changes at the end of this century, the beginning of next century in europe and if we're not with them then we're gonna be left behind. now i know i've actually seen the paper that the labour party is actually putting out in discussion documents on regional policy and it's very good. it's been a long time coming but i'm glad you got there eventually. but the person in charge of it is roy hattersley. now, what's roy hattersley's record of regional decision making? well, the last time he was in , he actually went to a group of people who were determined to make their decision, were determined what their decision was. he refused to listen to it,influence his own decision. if you haven't guessed, the last time he was in was in and he doesn't trust folk to actually select parliamentary candidates. now the effect is that if you make a decision from london, if you impose a decision from london, the people you impose that decision on are very very demoralised. and the labour party in is very demoralised. and what was a twenty thousand majority has cut massively, massively. it will be seen as a marginal after this. the only question is, who will he put up next time? now, i mean the emphasis is on development. i'm not quite sure the labour party's picked that out and i may be unfair to them in s it's not enough if you only see a regional policy d just development and economic led. somebody mentioned somebody, a name from the past tonight, who would be very proud of this, very proud of this statement, would agree, would agree with it fully. david owen would agree fully with this statement which surpri wsh which does surprise me but then may y'know then may be not. the labour party's changed a lot of it's policies already so maybe they're getting close to david owen, i don't know. i do take on, i do take on one point that the conservatives have begun to raise to make in their in their motion which what we don't want is another heavy tier of bur bureaucracy. and wh y'know we thought about this for a y'know a long time t and what we do want is a thin tier of bureaucracy. the one thing in the labour document, and this is in the statement labour made, i mean they're actually talking about paid councillors on on a regional authority, which is a y'know which is would be very unpopular with the public but erm. a developing developing regional democracy is erm is a difficult thing to get to get across and it's one of those things that liberal democrats talk away for hours about at their conferences. the labour party talk about the class war, presumably, or whatever. the tories th the tories talk about hating the unions or whatever. liberal democrats actually get in corners and say we hate government, y'know, what can we do to get po power away from london? and i tell you just, what i just wanna do, is give you one one one thought which is in our motion. the difficulty will be in getting regional policy through and in some areas of the country do not have natural regions. some areas of england do not have natural regions. if you can tell me which region hertfordshire is in, or berkshire is in, i will find somebody else who can tell you it's in a different region. and so there needs to be a way forward to break this argument. the way that we've found it in this this year's liberal democrat conference was to actually put forward the suggestion that regional government could be brought in in a flexible sense. you don't need a regional authority all the way across the country all at once and you can actually bring a regional authority in, and it's certainly that scotland should have its own parliament. you could then bring in regional authorities with less power for the north west, the north east and to yorkshire and humberside and i do hope you'll actually join me in supporting our motion for an independent . finally, the the best people to implement liberal democrat policies are liberal democrats. thank you. councillor thank you lord mayor vague and woolly. as a textile man i don't mind woolliness too much but i do object to vagueness because this motion is so vague that it can mean as much as you want it to mean while, at the same time, it says to little as to leave an escape route for it's supporters. it produces no facts, no economic forecasts to substantiate it's ideas, if you can call them ideas. it merely hints that the world will be a better place if we support it because the unquantified benefits which will flow from it will put us on a level with germany and france, assuming of course that we wish to be on a level with germany and france. the motion speaks of regions and regionalisations. the labour party have committed themselves to establishing regional government, that is if britain decided to commit suicide at the next election. they say that if they create regional government they will do so at the expense of national government and not local government, but that isn't true because mister has already said that erm strategic services such as passenger transport will b will be handed over to regions and if that goes obviously fire, police and strategic planning will be lost to us. the theory is also that the regions might be able to bypass the national government and deal directly with regions of europe. well, i can understand the labour group wishing to bypass national government if that government were headed by mister kinnock, but without that particular incentive i don't think that international negotiations should be taken by any organisation outside national government, otherwise we'd cease to be a nation. here here the labour group often speak in general terms of gross strategic overviews of the economy of these regions and we know from experience what that means right okay log on to the network, get into microfit, call up q m four fit and say data last of the finished testing for structural change and then we'll move on to and diagnostics person is it? the windows a bit a little bit coming straight at me . thanks very much it's not working, is that right? sometimes it gets overloaded, when everybody accesses the same oh right. data file sorry but i'm using windows oh i beg your pardon. right, if you er if you get access to data erm go into the data processing environment, log to the data, right so log t c i m p can you remember this as textile data, this is textile consumption in the u s, right and we are explaining it in terms of consumer income and the relative price of textiles what are we doing? i've got this far right okay can you go into the, just log the data okay last week we were looking at test for structural change and we said that the chow test is the most commonly used test for structural change in actual fact chow developed two tests erm, the parameter constancy, i e structural change,fir the first one is where you remember what the, the principle behind the chow test that you split the whole sample into two sub periods, right and you see whether the, some of the res residual sum of squares from each sub sample, right, is significantly different from the residual sum of squares from a single estimation over the who whole sample period, right if they are significantly different that suggests that the parameters that are estimated over the full er sample period, right, aren't as good estimates as the unrestricted estimates when we are allowing two different sets of parameters just to be estimated. right, what what we'll do is i mean we can confuse the chow test looking at the residual sum of squares er from each of these sums as the regressions on sub samples, comparing them with the residual sum of squares on a regressionary of the whole sample and the computer will actually do it for us. right, so it's one i want to, i didn't get time to do last week was to tell you where you specify that you want to perform a chow test, right, and the computer will generate both of both of chow's tests with one, the first one is where we've got enough observations in each sub sample, right, to estimate the regression, right, however, you may, you may detect and figure there is some structural change right at the end of your er sample of observations or alternatively right at the beginning. now in those cases we can't use the normal chow tests we've got more parameters to estimate than we have observations, right, as a result chow developed a second test, right, from structural change where we don't need er erm to estimate essentially the regression in the sub sample which has got very few obser observations but in that chow, that chow second test is often called a test of predicted failure, right, microfit will calculate both of those tests and bear in mind i mean that we're spending a lot of time on er parameter constancy, we must bear in mind that parameter constancy is vitally important if we are going to make these inferences possible be about policy making on the basis of our estimates. now if our estimates, say for the marginal to consume or the incoming elasticity of demand, right if our estimates are based on a regression in which the real or the underlying marginal propensity to consume or income elasticity demand is varying from plus four to minus two, you know, is our point test generate from, from regression analysis they are going to be completely meaningless. we want to have some degree of confidence in that er the parameters that we estimate right have remained relatively constant over our sample period. if they haven't remained constant over our sampling period, right, then there's no point in making our sample predictions, alright, we've got to have at least the confidence that our model is re relatively stable over our small sample, right, in order to make any sort of predictions about the behaviour of the dependent variable that we are looking at and the parameter of interest out of sample more often than not when we have parameter instability that doesn't always signal a change in government policy, it often signals the fact that you've got a very poor model, a model er is mis-specified and so if we detect a structural change in our model, we first of all try and explain why it may come about was there a major change in government policy, why was, why did consumer behaviour change at this period, right, if we don't have any erm er justification for changing behaviour it probably means that our original model is mis-specified we've got the wrong variables explaining erm the variable of interest on dependent variable. so parameter constancy is a necessary condition, right, for good applied incrementic work, if you don't have parameter constancy, look at another model basically, right. right so what we'll do is i'll show you how we can compute chow tests in microfit if you come out of the data processing environment type q erm and move to the action menu i guess do that linear regression. ah yes we will yeah, thanks very much. yeah well sorry if you come out of the action menu, you will need to create the constant so you press the escape key erm then move back to er the process blot edit save option. right that will take you back to the data processing menu, then you, then you just create a constant call it whatever you like. now once you've created a constant go into the er estimated test forecast option in the action menu, right specify your equation l n t c space l n i space l n p a constant whatever you called it, right then press the end key. now when it asks you for the sample statement, ah done it, right before, it will ask you for the sample statement er over what period would you like to estimate this equation, right instead of pressing the return key which gives you the default, right, if you specify nineteen twenty three to nineteen forty sorry just a a dash between it like that nineteen twenty three space nineteen forty okay it asks you for the number of observations to be used in the structural stability tests, right, erm if you er press the default er if you press the return key then it should give you the maximum number available right five observations in this case right and then it will perform the regression over the entire sample period, those will be the results you obtain, right, it will also er present chow erm test statistics. right so if you go er into squared and estimate the equation, right, it has actually estimated over the full sample period has it, no it hasn't no alright it hasn't estimated so that's an equation estimated over the first sum, first sub sample, right, if you press the return key again right right, at the bottom in the table of diagnostic tests you'll see chow's predictive failure test, right and also erm the chow test. right so there, the er chow tests statistic f, right, is chow's first, first test right and er e is chow's second test which is often called predictive failure. now if you look at the test statistics there there are two versions of test statistics, one is an asymptotic version, right, assuming that we've got an incredibly large sample and one is the small sample, that's the, that's the l m version. now we've got the small sample version which is an f distribution. now what i recommend is that you always use the f version of any of these diagnostic test statistics and we can go on to look at the others erm in a moment. always use the f statistics unless there are circumstances in which you can't, right if the computer doesn't generate an f statistic, then you will just have to use the l m version. the reason why it's better to use the f statistic, is that the f statistic has much greater power, right, on the small samples. both statistics are equally powerful in large samples but by and large you will always be using a small sample, so use the test statistic which is designed for small sample work, that's the f statistic. right, what i want to do now is just hand out, before you press any other keys, sort of hand out some some sheets on er critical values. the microfit does help by and large by computing er the probability value of it, all the critical values which er are testically significant are different from zero. ho however that won't be the case for all erm computer programs we use, right, as a result we will need to know how to use er t tables tables and tables. hopefully, you are all erm familiar with these but just in case you are not right, let's just er run through them. could you look at the distribution of t okay. let's just say that we are forming a t test on an estimated coefficient and we want to know whether t ratio will be generated on the computer is significantly different from zero. now let's say that we've got a sample of erm thirty observations right. now we want to know and say we generate a statistic of two point five a t ratio of two point five. is that significantly different from zero right, well you just go down the right hand column in degrees of freedom until we reach thirty. actual fact degrees of freedom is n minus k. right n is the number of the sample and k is the number of parameters that you've estimated in your model. right, so say that we have thirty, three observations, right we've got three parameters in this particular model, right, therefore degrees of freedom will be thirty, right, and we've jusk the critical values run across the rows alright. now the more certain that we want to be about a particular inference, right, the smaller is the significance level. right, so if we want to be er ninety percent certain about inference that corresponds with ten percent significance level and our critical value there is one point seven zero. right so if we had a test statistic greater than one point seven zero on a t ratio. one point seven zero then we could refute the null hypothesis. right, the coefficient was zero. as we increase our confidence, right, so if we are ninety five percent confident we are now looking at the five percent significance level t rat er the critical value rate rises to two point zero point two and if you want to be even more confident, to be ninety nine percent confident about our inference, you look at the one percent level, right, and that has a t ratio of two point seven five. right so if we had a t ratio of two point five, right, we could reject the null hypothesis of the five percent level but we wouldn't be able to reject the null hypothesis at the one percent level. this is a very common problem in er statistical inference and th or which which significance level do we choose? and there's no right and wrong answer to that. you mention the prevention of the equal user five and ten percent level, right, but bear in mind that the more confident you want to, to be about inference i e the smaller the significance level, right, the, the lower is the power of the test. this is why we don't test at the ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine percent confidence level because the higher you'll, the smaller the probability making a type one error essentially er is significance level, right the larger the probability will make a type two error, right, a type two error denotes the power of the test. right, so normally we, you know, we want to be reasonably confident, right, so we want to have a reasonably small significance level we don't want that significance level to be too small, otherwise the power of the test will diminish very rapidly so we normally use the ten or the five percent, five percent level and if you just look at the er the five percent column, right, overall realistic sample sizes, right, from a hundred and twenty down to, to about twenty, i, those t ratios were the critical value they are all about two and that's why we say you can have a t ratio of about greater than two, then you can be at least ninety five percent confident about your inference. right, they don't change much as a result of the degrees of freedom er adjustment okay with er squared distribution yes, sort of different distribution but we interpret the tables in exactly the same way so if you just have a look on your screen erm, there's an l m version of the serial correlation test, right, and that has a squared distribution one right and the test statistic we obtain on your screens is calculated in two point eight eight, no two point zero eight. alright, is that significantly different from zero or you could go to a pie squared tables, look at the degrees of freedom, which is one, right. at the five percent level the critical value cup of squared is three point eight. right, so if we had a test statistic greater than three point eight it would reject our null hypothesis. right, in this particular case it is of no serial correlation is our null hypothesis. right so again large test statistics whether they're ts fs or kie squares. larger dis large test statistics mean rejection of the goal right erm there's no simple rule of thumb with kie squared you just have to look at the erm actual tables to find out what the critical values are. however, latest th er microfit not only gives you the test statistic but gives you erm the significance level, probability value er which erm that test statistic is significantly different from zero right so if we are looking at that serial correlation test statistic of two point zero eight right we would accept the null hypothesis of er no serial correlation, right, or wouldn't be able to reject it strictly. wouldn't be able to reject the null of no serial correlation, right, until we reach fifteen percent significance level. so if our, if you wanted to be eighty five percent confident about our inferences, right, we would reject that null hypotheses of no serial correlation, right, if we wanted to be ninety five percent confident about our inferences we would accept the null point of no serial correlation in tha in that case. okay erm,if we just turn over the sheet look at distribution of er of the f statistic. in the f test we have two measures of the degrees of freedom, right, you need to have the degrees of freedom in the numerator n one and in denominator n two. right, the degrees of freedom in the numerator just denote the number of restrictions that you are actually making the test. right so if you look at erm the chow test at the bottom of your screens, right the f test, right is an f three in seventeen test. three in the numerator denotes that we are making three restrictions to be restricting our parameters of three parameters in this particular model, constant, coefficient on, log of prices and log of you are restricting those er at a zero when we estimate over the entire, over the ent the entire sample okay and yeah do you have to say an n two would you round up or round down to be sure? then you just er interpolate so erm if you are looking at an f one fifty test this, which we've got tables here that give f one thirty and f one forty, oh sorry f one forty and f one sixty just interpolate so the critical value would be nought point nought five, sorry, four point nought five, right, so you just average the difference there. right so if we're erm want to compare an f statistic to see whether it's significant, right, you just go if it's a f three seventeen as in this case we go down the three column, the three is a in the numerator n one, right, till we reach seventeen, right, and now test to see if it's three point two right, so if we our chow test here indicates strongly that we have structural change because we've got a test statistic of twenty two, right, far away, different from three point two our critical value. when you are actually sort of writing er, say if you are, when you are doing your project or doing your work it's not just sufficient to say always t ratio is greater than two, therefore, it's statistically significant, you must calculate the er correct critical value you use, right, for th for each t ratio and also if you are looking at any diagnostics or looking at the significance of the regression which is an f statistic right you must give the five percent or ten percent whichever you choose. you must give the exact critical values, right, if those critical values that you are using to compare with the regressionally significant whether you have serial correlation or not erm so they're very very important and they ought to be included erm because otherwise we don't know whether a test statistic is er statistically significant or not. right okay so when you're performing test for structural change, right, if you just erm go through the simple estimation routine as we've done the way you think. if you don't know a priori where the break will come, right, only we can get some, you can get a handle where the break in this series may come by looking at the rolling regression like you did last week. that will give you er a good idea as to where the break comes. if you are not too bothered erm, if you don't know a priori where the break comes, you can just split the sample size in half and just estimate erm an equation for each, not less, you won't but the computer will, if you just specify half the sample size, right, and when it asks for the number of observations failure or chow tests you just press the return key and it will use all the remaining observations, right, but when you are doing the empirical work you should always test for structural stability, right, and er either of chow's tests will, will suffice, right, but if you've got a very small stock sample where there are fewer observations than there are parameters to be estimated you will have to use chow's second test failure. although it does have lower, lower power than his first test, right, but if you can't calculate his first test then it's the best thing to use. right, okay, erm let's now move on to er these other diagnostics, right, like test for structural change these diagnostic test statistics that are calculated for right, because essentially what they're doing is that they're testing the assumptions on which ordinary leased squares is based. now if you violate any of the assumptions ordinary squares, right, then the procedure will produce or may produce misleading results, we can only be confident in statistical terms about ordinary leased squares parameters, right, because we know and show in theory that they hold providing a number of assumptions are met, like you have serially uncorrelated errors, right, we don't have m multi co-linearity amongst the regresses, right, we have constant variance throughout the sample now if any of those er assumptions are breached, violated then our, any statistical results that are generated from erm the technique that assumes that those assumptions haven't been breached erm are invalidated and we can get very misleading er parameter estimates, right, in the presence of auto correlation or multi-linearity erm . right, microfit holds this in this regard and every regression that you estimate will always have a table of diagnostic test statistics after it, right, so although we are interested in the parameter values of our estira estimated right, in order to have any confidence in those parameter values you must ensure that we haven't violated any of the assumptions in which is based, right. in microfit, you've got tests for serial correlation, functional form, normality of the residuals, right, and hetero skilasticity right if you reduce the sample size at the beginning of the estimation period you will also get chow tests in there as well. we can use the whole sample but just get those four erm four test statistics okay. now if we just look at the er test statistics for this particular model, right, if we chose say the five percent significance level right, then we can see serial correlation, we've got a test statistic of two point zero eight, right, we wouldn't reject the null hypothesis there, the null is that we have no serial correlation, we have uncorrelated errors right, clearly we want uncorrelated errors, right, so we'd be quite happy with that particular test statistic, it doesn't exceed the er five percent critical value. so it doesn't look like this model exhibits serial correlation. second test for functional form and there should read, you know we've logged our data here logging implies there's a multi picketed relationship between the variable expressed in absolute value, is that the case or is there a linear relationship or some other type of relationship there? so funct the functional form test will see erm will tell us whether we ought to possibly log the data or whether we ought to unlog the data and just do a regression in er er in absolute levels as opposed to logs. right so the functional form test, if we look at the kie squared version, right, again we've got a very small er test statistic implying there's no breach of functional form right, the, the log er specification, right, seems to be working okay, there's no problems with it erm if we now look at normality we've got a bit of a problem with normality, right in that our test statistic is now four point nine, if we look at the critical value at the five percent level of kie when kie squared two, ah it's not too bad, our five percent critical value of the kie squared two is five point nine nine, so although that test statistic is reasonably high, i mean you'd probably reject, oh yes, we can reject the null at ten percent of normally distributed errors we wouldn't reject the null at five percent erm let's just have a look at in actual fact at those errors to see what the problem is. so if you erm press the return key er go into option three right and what we'll do is we'll, we'll plot erm plot the histogram of the residuals because what this test for normality is doing is seeing whether the residuals we get from our regression are normally distributed, right o and s assumes that they will be. now, the reason why we're getting a fairly high test statistic is that er, that distribution, although it looks normal on the left hand side, it doesn't look particularly normal erm on the right and that we are missing some observations, we are missing some values of the residuals er in one area of the graph, nevertheless if we had a larger sample, right we probably erm, right it doesn't look, that looks quite encouraging in actual fact, those residuals do seem to be er normally distributed er what the test statistic is doing er it's saying it's performing a, it's a kiescraper two test, it's making two restrictions, one of which is saying, is the distribution of these residuals symmetric er and also it's testing whether there's one of the tails is a lot larger or a lot longer than the other tail of the distribution and er test statistics fairly high but we wouldn't reject the null of normality at the five percent level so our test statistic is four point zero eight and the critical value is five point nine nine and that the five percent significance level, so we've got reasonably er robust residuals. right, if you just want to come out of there and we'll just have a look at the plot of the residuals, if you plot the residuals the test for serial correlation there well the test for serial correlation, right, and try and determine whether there's a auto regressive structure to those parameters and i think steve was talking to you about er auto regressions, so what the computer is doing essentially, it is getting the residuals from the model raised and it's regressing them right on the residuals in the previous period, right, and it's testing whether this parameter row, right, is significantly different from zero right, now if this is, if row is significantly different from zero, let's say it's nought point six, that implies the residuals in t are not independent of the residuals in t minus one. right there's some correlation between the two, right, auto violation the residuals right, so where we don't have residual auto correlation which is the case here, you could actually save the residuals, perform an error less and you wouldn't find coefficient on residuals with t minus one significant, you've got an, potentially that's what these tests for serial correlation do, right, they, you can think of them as r saving the residuals, running a, running this regression, right. where we this is first order correlation, you may want to specify erm, some second order serial correlation in which case you'd be seeing whether the residuals in t were related to the residuals in t minus one. well if we specified our model correctly, right, then these residuals should be just one noise, they should just be, appear with random fluctuations with mean zero. right, and if you look at those, they look pretty er pretty uncorrelated . clearly there's no systematic structure in those residuals, right, if the residuals were moving in a cyclical manner erm that would imply that we are missing an important explanatory variable in our model and its systematic effect has been just thrown into the error term and as a result we are picking up that systematic effect in, in residuals. okay press the er escape key and go back to the regression results, erm so return to the post regression menu and then display regression results,regressult results again. case of the diagnostic tests this model looks reasonably okay, we haven't got erm significant serial correlation, we haven't breached form, we have reasonably normally distributed residuals, right, test for hetero skilasticity that just a test to see whether the residuals are growing over time, right,hetero skilasticity is where we have non constant, non constant variance of our, of our error term right, and very often you, you find that the variance through the residuals, something like that the residuals will look like that, i think, they're growing systematically over time, right, these are homo skilastic right, and these are hetero skilastic right, residuals and again we wouldn't want to have a model of hetero skilastic residuals, right, simply because that violates one of the assumptions on which the blue properties are based. hetero skilasticity means to erm erm we don't have biased estimates for our parameters, we have estimates that don't have minimum variables and they won't be the most efficient estimates. got a very low test statistic either in terms of kie or f right so we haven't reached but the model is still a poor model because we don't have erm er stable parameters, right, so you would actually reject this model as it stands, alright, because it didn't pass the diagnostic test statistics but there is no point generating parameters w if they, if they are not constant and you're gonna say elastic demand is one point four six or really it it's ranged between minus three plus, plus six over the sample, so you put estimate means so it must have constant parameters. what you might do, although i say you'd reject this particular model and that this is a structural change, what you could do or the easiest thing would be to do was just to incorporate a dummy variable, right, if you incorporated a dummy variable to a erm and to explain the and to take out the effect of structural change, right, er in that dummy inclusive model, right, all the diagnostic test statistics were okay, right, you would use, you would, therefore, use that, that particular model what we might do is just see if that is the case erm so if you come out of er diagnostics, work towards the data processing environment and generate a dummy variable right, so if you go into the erm data processing environment if it's in the er sort of process plot option what we'll do create a dummy variable call it d and let d pull zero press the return key and then edit d oh and if you just set erm observations for nineteen thirty nine through to nineteen er forty five or whatever the end of the sample is to one, set them all to one is forty. well thirty nine or forty all do it to thirty nine just to keep, so all have the same results. i mean where we could dummy into the war here so the war starts in thirty nine so unless you've got good reason to believe that consumption wasn't affected until nineteen forty, we use a dummy for the whole war period once you've edited, once you've edited the variable you press the end key that saves the edit. all i do now is regress our model right, including just a, a cons a constant dummy, right, so if you specify your regression equation, just add d to the list of explanatory variables, right, so we are assuming that the effect on the textile consumption is simply just to move the demand function up, right, use the entire sample period amongst this estimation. you know that the parameters were non constant but hopefully they will be now constant, now that we've er included the dummy variable okay er so if you go to the diagnostic menu we've got a bit of a problem, right, the dummy variable that we've included erm er you might, you might get away with this amount. it seems that we now have serial correlation in our model as a result of including the dummy right, now we've got to test statistic, i mean always look at the f version of the test, right, er our f statistic of three point seven six is significantly different from zero, right, that leaves seven percent level, so a five percent test we probably accept that we didn't have any serial correlations and we just got there by the skin of our teeth on that particular test erm yes, you could probably get away with this one, functional forms fine, no problem there,hetero skilasticity right, are f statistic three point nine but significantly different from zero that's six percent level, right, so again we just scrape it if we were looking at the ninety five percent confidence it wants to be five percent if you are using as five percent significance level. right, we can just get there. so this model would be er, you can say it's reasonably robust, bear in mind though that those test statistics on serial correlation and er hetero skilasticity are very close to the critical value used. had you chosen the ten percent significance level as your cut off point erm you would infer there is both serial correlation and hetero skilasticity in, in the model. right, so, you know, there's no econo-matrixes by no means the science and you can essentially get the computer to er tell the story that you want simply by choosing er critical values but nevertheless we've re probably be reasonably confident in our estimate, particularly if those estimates, we'll just go back to them, er the er display the regression results again,display them again but those coefficients are elasticities, right, they're cored with our a priori reasoning right, we put ah, unit elasticity, you may want to test the hypothesis that the elasticity on erm the income variable, that income elasticity is significant given one, just generate computer a t ratio in the hypothesis value being one instead of zero, as in a normal t test, right, and that coefficient point nine five is sufficiently close to one, by looking at the standard error to er further that is an estimate of one you've got very inelastic er demand erm for the, the textiles, that coefficient, is that the time, i can't believe it if that's all, oh no that's eight, don't worry eight. yeah so it's point eight, so it is, you do have price, price elasticity demand for textiles is price inelastic. right, and we may, we may expect that to be the case, you know, clothes don't have, textiles don't have many substitutes. as a result erm changes in demand are gonna be er fairly unresponsive to changes in price because you've got to use textiles in order to make clothes and everything else that you make textiles with. right, okay i think that's probably er about it we'll leave it there, if you come out of microfit don't forget to tell it to log off the network. what's er steve doing with you at the moment in, in lectures, has he started auto regressive models? yes. right this bloke and his daughter who like lived as tramps mm, like, that little girl yeah and conning people and this yeah, he was alright is it, was it a bit like no, was it a bit like paper moon? i've never seen paper moon oh ain't ya? tatum o'neal she used to erm swindle and cheat people probably is then, sounds like mm you've got a cheese slice ah cheese. are you going out tonight? i don't think so, unless i go up to richard's mm geoffrey's going to watch do karate, in town, now well he likes marshal art don't he?we won't tell daddy that you knocked a full on the table of black currant all over the carpet will we? were not telling you we've not told daddy that you've done that did you see it?, did you see it? no i don't think see it, no by accident are you up to two days at the co-op now? yeah, i don't know what i'm doing actually, cos i've, i can't work tuesday cos i've got an exam till five oh, can't you swop it for another day? i'm gonna try and do mm, if you see him up to him well i've told claire any way, she'll sort something out why she acting managing then? below neil oh, third, is she getting married? no oh i heard er talking to one of the do you like drinking yes soup? oh yeah do you like, you pick it up, like to pick it up really mm, i heard her talking to one of the lads, i think the dark hair, short, what's his name? matt the donkey oh matt, right, and he was saying something about getting married and he said about bridesmaids, er have you choose the bridesmaids dresses?, how old is she then? i don't know i want these bits there are she acts about ten years older than she is, i know that sit down then i'm not sure though what actually i don't think the monkeys will be on for much longer then, a few moments no i know there not aren't they?, i wonder if they'll be able to say doubtful no a bit monkey pardon? he's got monkey victoria in the victoria victoria's got a monkey hasn't what my victoria? yeah no victoria at aunty ann's is it? no, no martin's monkey my victoria not my monkey, my victoria's not got a monkey she's not? i hear her she's got a monkey mm i heard her you heard her, playing with a monkey, when? my monkey darts was on again last night, i was watching it mm tony greaves says that's the crippler yet again oh that could be the crippler now is that his favourite word then? yeah he's dead funny right, cos he was on and he's, and some, some match was on he's, in his er, he said there's my son in the crowd and this kid had his finger up his nose, picking his nose there's my son showing me up as usual what all the time is is? yeah dad, don't want my cheese slice you eat it i's got i woke, my alarm went off at nine thirty this morning, i thought shall i get up i thought no, better not i didn't wake you up cos i thought you'd want a lie in so that's, that mine? i know how much you like your bed, was it nice and on, was it nice and warm when you got in bed last night? well it weren't on fire no, it weren't, shouldn't of been on fire, but it should of been warmish luke, tepid mm, lovely them dad what inside? so did i dad, dad dad goes on the outside mm dad , dad what, what, what dad have stew stew we had last night was it nice? , i'm gonna make stew again this week, i love stew, it was lovely wasn't it? yeah did you like the stew? s'alright, but are you gonna do the lasagne like you said you are? yeah i will do that's why i bought the mince meat, i'm going to do lasagne are you, are you going to make me lasagne in a minute? some what? one of these no, why have a bit of daddies if you want some then come then no here in a minute have a taste daddy let you have some there i have to make sure i don't electrocute myself with my cup of tea ah so it just picks up your voice? i don't know, i couldn't tell you yes. have you sorted out all your washing martin? no have you got an exam on monday? two what exams? german, reading and french oral, french oral's a doddle is it? yeah so is german reading is it? the only one i don't like is the e economics ones really?, i thought you didn't like your german, are you a bit picked up on that then? no, but the exams are easy are they? the ones were doing are, absolute walk in the pan i wouldn't say that in case you don't do very well should be quite easy though i think well i hope so eh rob show mum how you do your horse falling over, we saw a horse falling over let's see a horse falling over oh yes ah, eh, get me, get me no you have to get yourself up with your four legs, you've got four legs so you can get up, that's it, just, that's how horses get up on the front legs first, then the back, that's right listen , neigh, neigh neddy ah, ah, ah, i fall over that programme on and that last night was good that emergency i saw the end of it it was, it was the police, the fire and the ambulance and it was a clip from each, it was good yeah, it was, the bit i saw was that policeman when he goes although those two were up to no good cos i saw them skating round that car what made me laugh was this police woman saying, it annoys me, if you have a drink you shouldn't drive, and i thought to myself and i bet the only reason she's never had a drink in her life and got into a car, has she? the only reason that police get away with drink driving is cos half the buggers are masons and they give them the old funny hand shake and its oh on your way sir that's right, i think she was quite hypocritical, i mean she said, any body that has a drink and gets into a car is a potential murderer yeah well that, i mean a lot of policeman have drink put in there dad as part of their duty to get to know people yeah they have drinks in pubs what's in there? and then go home and drive so there, there what's there then? potential murderers tuning knobs for the television, don't touch those, mind that no touch them and the telly goes wrong but i didn't like the accent you very, very oche i oche i all the time bloody thick in it? your very oche i very thick the birmingham accent the birmingham accent sounds really thick unfortunately, it doesn't matter how educated you are, but if you come from brom you sound dopey as hitler, yes don't you?no, no grandma was really slagging her off weren't she maureen lipman, oh god, yeah, oh i don't like her, she has too many programmes, i've only seen about one she only has, yeah too many programmes, she means too many adverts i've seen her in about one programme in the last five years what was that agony? i hated that about face oh i saw her in agony that agony was er dee, daw, can i play with them ones? problem pages wasn't it? no not fire in the just a fire engine noise? i know a fire in are you as hard as matthew dr er richard his mummies she let's him does she? she's in , he's insured on it is he?, oh he seems to be out driving a lot now well the roads were bad this morning you haven't driven in frost have ya? yes icy roads? yes oh well you've got to be very careful oh no, what's he got excuse me robert did you, did you ever get a predicted grade for german? no, i no, well yes, but i don't know what is it oh i think its some c d e or something like that didn't they tell you?who's doing german with you? katie that's it, two just the two of ya? yeah in town last night right you get so many drunks untrue, right, this bloke like staggering across the road i thought drunk?, what time? erm, about ten o'clock he was seriously that's early yeah i know what erm, what times the last bus now? i don't know, i think we caught it, i don't really its round about ten to eleven, in't it love, last bus usually? so it gets back in town by about half past? mm no sort out of town, from town yeah and you can't get another bus after that oh can't you go back to town on the bus? no, once they take you to your places that's it they don't take passengers back to town, they finish there there gonna loose loads of money doing that who wants to go back in town at half past eleven at night? you never know mm, not usually well no, but not on, to town, but there might be somewhere they want to go on the way no the bus goes out and that's it they take you home and that's it, they don't pick up passengers to go back, they've gotta go back to the depot then he depart have their money yeah that's right, i meant to ask you, do the tills ever not balance at the co-op? i don't know you never get to here then? yes well it did the other week what? didn't balance seriously was it? neil was absolutely worried as hell because it was can't remember how much it was, it was like two thousand pound out good gracious no yeah remember that girl when she did ours, ours wrong? kept what one thousand, nine hundred pounds for about twenty quids worth yeah what did she do wrong that girl? want this light on she mul multiplied she multiplied it, yeah i want this light on no why? its broke look at the birdie up there look in the tree yeah but can you move your ladder please robert? ooh yes yes are all your friends out from their universities yet? some, some cos they haven't all no do they usually take a long while i don't know put that handle down a bit more, its not locked yet would you like a cadbury's cream egg? oh no would you? no i haven't got any right i'll have my egg then i'll have one of them might have a cherry bakewell do you want some of that?, here robert very cold shut the door up quick with that door open, i would like you to shut it please shut the door quick draft up my trouser leg cos i'll have to put a bat up my pyjamas did any body ring while i was out? no taggart's on tonight is it?, no morse no morse is on tonight robert will you move your ladder please? no, fire water there's not no there's not, move it put it out then mm, mm that's it, good its gone lovely, you've put it out er now you can move it can't ya? out up, up quick, quick lets put your fingers back is that better? i can't get it you've not eat your cheese slices sandwich that oh my finger then, give us my finger saw susan and her boyfriend in alder weeks ago it were er, next door yeah he's right no quality in he? well, what's he do?, is he a plumber? geoffrey said he's a policeman yeah geoff talks out of his ears i don't think you'd have hair that long and be a policeman geoffrey gets the wrong end of the stick unfortunately doesn't he?, eat this cheese slice if there's any mm, not bad are you gonna get erm a pair of trousers then from mark's? possible yeah i think so what sort d'ya want? dunno do you need some more jeans? yeah i could do couldn't i? don't you like black jeans? i might get some black gear mum yeah i might get some black, yes i like the black ones daddy said don't want one jeans? no thanks do you want one of gee? no what's that on that, what's that sticker there robert? its a monster don't pick it off then, you'll spoil it, grandma bought him that booty bag did she? we all had sweets there again oh that's what he had this is what he's got left cos your not impressed are you? don't you like it rob? don't you like, your socks are wet, where's he been? probably in that oh you've been in the wa in the ribena in your ribena you've dropped poor swinger on there look what you , go and put your slippers on some bread there's that piece of bread you left look oh these are lovely dave he don't want it now do he? mm, no i want is that it think national win today then? mm they're away at plymouth, they might do, they might, they might not they're winning runs got to come to an end some where yeah, but they're on a real roll at the moment aren't they? two cup wins mm two first division wins they did well to beat notts county didn't they? yeah, she says, she says spitting all over the place huh, didn't mean to mummy he had the last cherry bakewell have you had the last cherry bakewell?, he has the last cherry bakewell oh i don't like them deprived his father of the last cherry bakewell well i'm depriving him of his chair you had the cherry, oh well he did share it with you didn't he?never mind now you get some little stickers on it did you want a jumper from that shop? no no, why? i don't don't you want another one? no those lilac one was nice i need trousers not jumpers i know, but you could have a, yes but you could have a jumper to go with the trousers, lilac's nice us, i don't know, i want how much money have you got? er, erm two pound fifty, no that isn't enough martin that's true, its true well do you want to go down and have a look? no i'll take you no i ain't really got time this afternoon what time you gotta be at work? two thirty its only twenty tw i know i don't want to though why? i don't want to yeah but your not gonna have time next week yeah but i don't need a tra ,ba another jumper though yes but its, there's a sale on i know, but where, no point in buying things for the pr just for the sake of it no it isn't that yes, but your going to need 'em jumpers aren't you?, when your at college, gotta think ahead let me get it well how many have i got?, i've got one not that many two, three, four, five, six in there mum yeah i know precisely a lot of yours are sweat shirts yeah that's what i don't want yes, but there's a lovely lilac one i'll go next week when i've got some money yeah, there won't be no jumpers left next week yeah i'll take you this afternoon no, no i shall do it myself, thank you robert, i don't like your cold foot in my face poo see if your feet smell, oh that's clev , see martin smell his feet cor rashes of roses no when did you last have a bath, four or five weeks ago? nineteen sixty six, nineteen sixty six weren't it? you didn't have a bath i did i didn't i did i did let's have a look at your nose i did i'm clean i have one every other night i have done this week is that better now?, can you breath better?, that's got a great lump out your nose i've got a lump you've got a lump?, you just got one, aagh where'd you get that from? out my nose we had to take the monkey shopping, didn't we take the monkey shopping? what to see all its friends? no we went to aldy and we went and we went co-op and where else?, nowhere else co-op co-op and then we went, we didn't take the monkey in the co-op did we?, why? cos somebody will nick him no they'll think that you've nicked one from the co-op won't they? yeah, and we've nicked and when i when your a fly? yeah oh i nicked another one, i want another monkey know who's working at the co-op? kate mr , o'neil oh good, that's him off the way the bloke with the blonde hair and the long hair and the glasses yes erm, now what women were on? erm you leave it alone you rat bag, who's digging my stuff out aren't you? that's yours rat bag bong, bong, bong, bong don't hit yourself on the head, it'll hurt, shall i make you say robert i want it there seems to be more men than women eat your bakewell tart then probably you never heard any thing about that golf tournament that you won, have you? no, i probably have to wait till the season starts i would of thought it was the end of the season i don't know what's happening, but i'm gonna get something off him any way, definitely how'd ya know? cos i'm going to, when the next time i see him, i ain't been up to humbersome for about three month though yeah, but you don't play in the winter much any way do you? i know but i'm not the ideal member am i?, go to scraptof more than thing yeah , well you've never had any thing from scraptof have ya? yeah what? no yeah, no yes i have and they said no well aren't you on a waiting list? yeah how long's the waiting list then? i've put some things down your as long as a piece of string, but i might be okay cos matthew's junior captain this year yeah so he might be able to nominate you yeap oh this is it does richard play golf there as well? yes both as good as each, well yes i suppose they are both as good as each other are they?the siamese twins yeah hip joined joined at the hip i wanna come out with play no socks on you can't go out with no socks on can you?, what's that?, ee where you getting all this from?, hang on let's get a tissue, i'm glad its coming out though because its been up your nose for a week you've been breathing that's it just like that that's right you just, you get them out, that's the boy just like that, aargh come here let's have a no , a nose blow, look at the face clean blow, hard, trouble is you blow and nothing comes out the area oh that's good, do that again like that that's it robert martin's speaking to you robert would you be so kind as to shut the door for me? i wanna go out with these socks on well get yourself some socks well shut the door first and then you can do it get some socks there in the second drawer, second there middle drawer in this drawer? yeah that's the one, that's your shocks drawer you got some? yeah right we'll put them on you then he wants to come out with you dad yes i know he does wait for me wait for the bloke, you can put your wellie boots on wellies wellies cos its muddy out and we don't want the dirt all every where not my , not my stumping no not your stumping shoes not my stumping shoes not your stumping shoes, there are then, where's your hat and all, all that i don't want one yes you did the thinking man's cam cowboy's sandwich ham, jam and spam wrapped round a wagon wheel do you like wagon wheels? no no i think they're awful i don't like the marsh mallow in that i don't like the biscuit oh i like the biscuit i don't like the marsh mallow i think that's awful the marsh mallow is revolting i don't like that i don't like that either, i don't like the chocolate either oh look here he comes with his woggy boots wogginton boots wellington boots and how is our ooh look at these, good job you've got these for the dirt i wish you would be a neat clag as my granddad would say do you remember the, what's, what's a clag? yorkshire saying for trouble oh right remember yorks do you remember you little wellies? no that you used to where when you were a little boy?, can you remember what colour they were? they must of been red they were red cos you always bought things totally the wrong colour for my sex no that's the only colour you could buy, they were red from, from er mothercare has he got any thing in there worth nicking? fudge, milky bar and a crunchie is that the milky bar i gave him? what?, where is it? right i dunno what you've done with your hat, have you seen his hat any where? i have nee what? where's your hat though dear can't find it see if you can find his hat any where martin a hat, a hat a little beige one with all the colours oh god i haven't seen that for ages that one's yours actually i'm not surprised, oh here it is, its over , its on the settee can you pass it please? yes i suppose i can my martin's being horrible no he's not and then he says he's martin's being horrible no i'm not being horrible he's not , he's not being horrible i fetched your hat with an a say thank you martin thank you martin say love you martin love you martin creeping gets you every where what's he say? creeping gets you every where creeping gets you every where there you go creeping gets you every where bye, bye bye, bye, bye bye spotty dog oh he loves little spotty dog isn't it?wouldn't you like to be a nursery school teacher martin? yeah your good with children yeah its dead easy you don't need to be exactly er a one intelligence do you? you only need to be a nursery nurse oh though, its a woman's job though, in it though? tis really, you don't see any male teachers and that's not trying to be sexist, but that's how teaching it is nursery children, you don't know do ya? no cos they're still a bit clingy and they need mummy toilet training and, well not toilet training but reminding to go to the toilet, look at his hat did you read in the paper that george best has had to spend half of his testimonial money on debts test, testi what? his testimonial money oh yeah his testimonial money on debts, that's terrible in't it? he's a prat he's really ruined his life ruined it years ago through drink he could of been a really brilliant football player he could of made a lot of money and well he was, he was well he was and he could of had a secure future well he did that for a while yeah till he sconded it all on gambolling i don't know what people see in gambolling do you?its like willie thorne willie thorne the gambler well i mean he's lost every thing hasn't he? yeah even his wife's left him your getting like grandma now don't like him, his wife, he left no i'm just saying don't like him his wife left him didn't say don't like her she left her husband with nine children didn't say i didn't like him, just said that his wife had left him oh god you don't like him do ya?, yes, why?, ooh well why shouldn't i? oh he left his wife with a hundred and fifteen little children under the age of four mm, ray reardon's the one she doesn't like she used to love ray reardon to pieces cos he was welsh cos he was welsh then he left his wife and then he went to london, she said oh he moved into a flat with a girl he hardly knew, a she was forty when he met her and she was, and he was about foot fifty, something like ten years different which is very little yeah and second of all he'd known her since they were at school, well he was like ten years older, but something like that any way oh brilliant this is back on jack the ripper that is it a repeat? its him look that one, lewis collins and michael caine he's good michael jack able line erm caine yes so is michael jackson who was jack the ripper?, he weren't was he? no was he the policeman? yeah, he was the detective mm dave stevis he's not doing so well now is he?, he used to, he's not won a high ranking tournament since nineteen eighty nine no that's true, since he married oh blame it on that no its true though its true since he's got married he hasn't won well why do you think that is then? cos he's been devoting his life to his wife more and that's not right? i'm not saying that's not, but that's the reason bloody vegetarian's again all people who do something that they don't have to always shout about it and try and turn every one else like it like vegetarians er, yes eh, its a free country and you should be able to choose what you want to do yourself er, if something is damaging to your health then i would agree, yes, smoking i don't agree with smoking but if people want to smoke that's entirely up to them, they know the risks, i wouldn't smoke, i know the risks but vegetarianism is purely a matter of choice and there's no peop people that harp on about you shouldn't eat meat, get on my nerves exactly but every body who did something like being vegetarian or what's the other thing?, goes to church, church people are the bloody worse they're hypocrites any way there they liked to be seen to go to church they go to church because they've done something wrong half of them no they just like, think that it looks good because they are being seen to go to church precisely, i mean prince, the duchess of york goes to church and she lived in sin for ye years with that bloody racing driver so she's, she's nothing that's right, that's right and when you she is the biggest hypocrite and the biggest erm, what's the word i'm looking for? embarrassment to the royal family going rough, she's a bit of rough she is, she is, she is not high class is she? i don't think so she really isn't she, she doesn't tow the line, does she?she doesn't tow the line to be er accepted in the royal family and she's not doing any thing nice to endear herself to the public apart from erm, what gran grandma says that princess diana spends too much time with aids patients that there's nothing wrong with that though i think, i think she goes i think that's good over board though yeah, she maybe does, but i think she's trying to, to try and promote the fact that aids patients are harmless, because a lot of aids patients are very isolated, people don't want to know them, they think you can catch it through shaking hands, drinking out the same cup and all that, and i think she's trying to prove that look i'm alright, so should you be, but she does go a bit over the top every time i look, turn round, she's been visiting some aids patient said, definitely got i mean the you've probably got more chance of having an audience with her if you've got aids than if you haven't catch aids, meet the princess yeah but its better than going off skiing all the while and taking your spotty chicken pox children with you i and infecting the country that you go to i think that's disgusting going abroad taking chi , a child that's got chicken pox abroad and the other one she could be incubating the disease any way i bet you any mo money she comes down with it as well two pianos? yeah, one's geoff's oh i see i bet she comes down with chicken pox hog eugene oh pathetic names or what eugene its not how they came into the world of real names to stick with prat names like beatrice and, i mean i know its old royal and that and i mean fancy going to school in that bloody henry and william, i mean william's not too bad william's alright that's the best out of them king billy's the best i think something like that but henry is the, why call him henry then call him harry? i know what's the point in that? i don't know, henry, harry comes from harold i would of thought yeah, so why do they call him harry all the time, harry for a boy, that's awful i mean a lot of the old names, we talked about the other day, a lot of the old names have come back for children, but i mean i don't think harry should be harry ain't coming back gladys won't ever come back for a little girl will it? i think ena's gonna be back with it, before you know it mm, well, i visit ladies in the nineties and they're called emma and alice and amy and all these names that are being used for children now, but i don't think you'll ever get fred, sidney oh sidney's gone forever sid that's in the annals of history i think, an thank god as well sidney and erm horace, i think horace won't, can you imagine a little boy being called horace oh in it sad eh?, reading in the paper the other day about that thing the, the list of top ten names, i mean half of the ones on there are pathetic i know i mean lewis is something like nu number seven in the country, i don't know any lewis's well i do, its er at robert's school there's, there are all the names, that's what children are being called now, your age group you won't know them, but then i know at my age group they're all darren and gary and steven and all they want that, that was the vogue then and dean and scott dean and scott all that's right, i can remember when i had you that's all the names that were in fashion, but now it is joshua i like that actually joshua's alright, a lot of biblical names the thing is when you've got a last name your stuck because it, every thing, you can't have any thing too new otherwise it sounds stupid it adds devalue don't it?, well why don't you do what you said you were gonna do and have a, a doubled barrel name i might do well you wanna do it sooner rather than later you don't want to leave it, you wanna do it sort of, now, so that if you go to college or any thing you can start off with that name could do and be known as martin james thomas mm, i think that'll be nice thomas goes alright doesn't it? yeah i think that's nice geoffrey couldn't do that no geoffrey thomas, thomas geoffrey thomas thomas well he could just say geoffrey thomas and, and adopt it, that is his name any way yeah he could just me merely stick a hyphen in between it could do that is his name on paper, geoffrey thomas , he could call himself geoffrey thomas and write it as that couldn't he now?, if he wanted to what's mark's middle name? david david mark david that's awful that, well it ain't awful i don't like that mark david well it could of been mark andrew and then it'd been mat at least your name, your initials don't spell any thing rude no do you remember when i told you about that baby on the maternity ward what's her name something like patricia no pauline pauline go on iris pauline, iris something susan, that's it, susan, pauline, iris, susan fancy calling somebody that, i mean the names in themselves are old fashion names aren't they pauline that won't come back pauline was awful, well they were all family names oh ain't they terrible grandma's and, and that, so, they were all names like that and she hadn't realized that paula, er pauline, irene, susan spelt, spelt p i s s i know and i said to her is that what your going to call your baby and she said yes, so i said well you realize what the initials spell and she went pauline, oh my goodness i didn't know that so she changed the erm she changed them round paula, pauline, susan, iris so she changed the susan to, to theresa and made it pits instead p i t s household name, cooker hoover yeah dave hoover and also a household name dave moulinex steve bath steve table and chairs, huh richard dining table oh look at his smile it sad huh, he's an essex boy i can't see his white socks though what's all this joking about essex boys?, every where you read in the paper its essex gir ess why does an essex girl they're dead naff, right, cos steve wright in the afternoon as a thing, he says, he says, what do you want essex girl and he's said something funny she'll, she'll go, you crack me right up you do, you make me crack right up, right and they're suppose and they are, well i don't know, but they're supposed to be really naff are they? naff, over the top, the per the car that an essex boy would drive would be a ford capri mm either where white socks with loafers, you, you know naff mm, mm and look generally pathetic and the, all the woman have peroxide blonde curly hair, shoulder length mm why suddenly essex though? its just a naff place grantham supposed to be the most boring place in britain isn't it? yeah but this is, this is different though, just cos hasn't grantham got the reputation of being the most boring town in britain? s'i think so, yeah i remember when i started my training i work with this girl and i said where'd you come from and she said i come from the most boring town in britain, i says where grantham?, she says yeah, i says is it boring, she says yeah huh, it is leicester's dull though in it?, you've gotta say leicester is dull what's dull about it? the night life is absolutely pit pitiful every body always says that about the night life, i don't know why its really pitiful though was but, what you expecting that, obviously isn't called for a lot of night life, otherwise it would be there, there's been discotheque, they've been all sorts of things, but they've closed down because they haven't made enough money well so there obviously isn't the need and the demand that people think nottingham's got better night life, that's the, probably the nearest good place mm but manchester that's probably the hive but is it at the minute, because they've got there the hussy end which is like the number one, that's better than the stringfellow's apparently, hussy end are in manchester thirty quid to get in cor, but its so expensive these night life places, i mean they charge the earth for drinks and that don't they? yeah yours is crystals any good? yeah ain't bad its good? s'not bad, its a bit of a meat market, there's loads of like well that's how these places are any way, all you do, disco's and that are always the same, you got women dancing round their handbags, tracy and stacy and all those tracy sam and cheryl do they still dance round their handbags? no no no what do they do with their handbags? they leave them in the cloakroom oh right, and you get all the blokes standing round the bar with a pint in their hand, eyeing up the woman, looking for which one they're gonna move in on don't ya? i don't personally huh because i look for the men, now i'm just joking oh, oh dear, i hope not not it, it is like that, but i mean its always been like that but some places are worse than others mm, doesn't steven henry look young? he's got worse, well i don't know he's complexion's are about as bad as mine and how old is he? twenty two mm fifty three mm i wonder if steve davis, is this the quarter final?, or is it the final? the final the final oh, i wonder how he'll do a lot of rubbish that one i bet his wife said come on, get the money in mate come on steve, come on steve get the cash in get the wonga up to their oh you missed only fools and horses the other night, its the funniest one ever, its the one where del was in this wine bar pretend to be a yuppy mm and er he saw the, he was with trigger he says, he says keep calm, drinking calm, were in here my son, right, and er its the bit where he's leaning on the bar and the bloke lifts up the bar and he just folds like a tonne of bricks sideways oh that's funny that one, i've seen that before the best there's a story here in the paper, i don't know whether you've read it about a little boy, ten weeks old and he's been born with all his organs on the wrong side of his body oh yeah he's got his heart on the right instead of his left, the liver on the left instead of the right, the appendix on the left instead of the right and other internal organs possibly well he's alright though in he? res reversed, where every thing is the wrong way round, so its alright really in it? well if it was just some things i wouldn't of thought so so when somebody says to him what sides your heart on and he says right they say no, he says yes it is says here he should be expected to lead a perfectly normal life its when they find out when he's three years old, his face is on upside down or something, oh god marathon man i'll be on tonight, i hate that film, that's that terrible bit with the dentist and the teeth ooh, oh that is the worse, that is so bad, that's horrible isn't it?, you really feel that when's that on then? tonight oh i must watch it i don't know if i'm going to, lets see what else is on, jagged edge is on i might watch that instead, oh god its still time, i could, yes i think i could just about give that a wide enough berth it picks it up well right . what did you do yesterday afternoon, nothing? no, nothing you know that morse that was on last night? yeah was that the one where hang on let me think what it was, there's some, there's a it was, at oxford college weren't it and one of them was trying to be a like high up in the church or something yeah women and one of them got bunked off yeah was that the one with zoe wanamaker in it? yes zoe wanamaker it was good, i like morse anyway shame it was a repeat, there not doing any more with him i know, i like all the police ones i like all the ones there not doing unfortunately it's poirot tonight i don't like him so much well that was er what you saw on yeah i know , but i don't like david suchet, i prefer peter ustinov yeah, true cos it loses its erm you'll just have to pretend it, it's not him mm, could do close your eyes every time he comes on yeah, er, probably be about right do you like swede? no not particularly mm not keen on swede do you like bakewell tart? not really no i don't mean the iced one that you buy no, no, no the one i make, i made it once and you liked it with the almonds on top what's all this craving for making new puddings, you know oh, i just thought i'd have some thing different let's have a look at the puddings in there and i'll shall choose, i shall show you what i'd like no oh wicked its not what you'd like, it's what i've got the ingredients for i see you didn't say that did ya?, you never said that did ya? eh, eh, eh, no well you like it with custard don't ya? it's not got icing on so what is it then? pastry, jam, sponge yeah i suppose i've had that before with nuts on the top, i made it once right, yeah, i've got it can you crack some nuts for me? yes i will oh er look these they're almonds er i don't like them you know there those hard eh you know those walnut ones? yeah granddad's got this thing which you open them with oh it's a key a key? well its like a tri a triangular piece of metal, right yeah triangular piece of metal, you dig it into like the crack and twist it and it just opens walnuts never if you crack them along the seam they never come out whole, you always break into the nut well you don't with this it's a shame you don't with this it's quite good it's not bad at all alright you can crack these almonds then, use up the christmas nuts, now then they're ever so hard almonds are i just move some of this stuff out the way, i know, i've had a good idea, a smart idea you got a bin or something i can knock the, the remains into? oh, just put them in a, a dish okay you know what the almonds are don't ya? those i do know just checking after seventeen years in the business i think i know what an almond looks like pop's gone today again he's fish fish, fish, fish now i've got to find the recipe for bakewell tart so what you do you see with these al with these walnuts mm you stick the key in there ah and twist ah and just breaks it cracks it mm its ever so clever, dead ingenious good god there's enough almonds in this bag here you are that's it look ah looks nice doesn't it? yes, how you have to say nice cos you've got a knife in your back yeah right move that out there it's, it's sheeba and ted yes not ted and sheeba but sheeba and ted sheeba and ted sheeba and ted's house do you want all these almonds really yeah cos i want to put them on top don't you got some hazelnuts? no that serves you right, shame in it? look at all them, that's only out of one bag i know right i've gotta make some pastry well it was real value buy buying nine bags of nuts over christmas wasn't it? nobody's ate them, whose fault's that? yours where did you go last night then? south crostain dead sort there the white hart no golden fleece oh that's what i meant the golden fleece nice int it they do meals there yeah supposed to be nice, i think i've had a meal there years ago mine does richard drink much? yeah, but not when he drives who was driving last night? richard what was he having then? coke good, very sensible tres sensible please to hear it i'm sure his dad would be fuming if he did drink and drive i don't think richard would ever drive again if he did drink and drive oh with his dad's own breathalysing kit at home yeah checks him when he gets in the door although his dad's er, you know his dad's a police surgeon? yeah sometimes i mean he's been out when he's had a drink, on call, sort of thing mm i'd hate that being on call or cos he gets called out right in the middle of the night sometimes couldn't do that well does he do like the, the blood test the breathalysers and all that? well he does the blood tests, cos the police couldn't do it that's what i mean just the blood tests? yeah he would get called at but as far as she did erm thing do da's mm still it's all good money int it?, must be on better money now than he was as a g p an ordinary g p, otherwise i don't think he would of given it up i don't think he would have moved to a two hundred and thirty five thousand pound house either no from a small well from a where did they live before then? long way crescent which was just a semi oh that's real naff up there i know, that's where all the live the what? oh a nice little term i've nicked from my driving instructor so you before then? oh yeah how surprising oh it's massive it was, the house he's got now is massive i know it is, it's lovely isn't it? tres beau, cos there's the living room, its like he's got two living rooms and richard and his sister and there's a vid there a telly and a video in each of them, buggers mm, who was telling me that somebody's four year old son has got a video and television in his bedroom his own video i don't know i forget now it's ridiculous they were saying how spoilt children are today and how, erm i think it was anne who was telling me and i said it, that is just ridiculous isn't it? for a four year old to have their own video should give it me this gonna take me three weeks cracking these almonds i know there ever so hard the shells you know robert says he's going to have some dinner today i've heard that story before an all yes i've heard it before as well he said he wants some pork and potatoes you got pork? yeah, that's what we got gonna say tough luck out i've got beef oh it just smashes into pieces it doesn't matter it does when you don't know where half of it's gone oh right actually, yes i've found it, what do you want me to do with it then? what? give us another bowl where is it? oh yeah give us another bowl and i can dig out the little manky pieces i wonder if flaked almond is toasted or something no, well probably have er, oh well i'll just have to put them in the oven they'll go brown under the oven won't they? yes you'll have the every now and again you'll be biting into a piece of shell which will be nice oh geoffrey watched marathon man last night oh, glad he had nightmares no he didn't, but i could hear him saying oh no absolutely wicked, oh absolutely, murderous, oh god, eh man, drilling his teeth, ow no that's horrible though that film cowabunga do isn't it? yeah is it safe?, yes its safe, its very safe, is it safe?, no its not safe, every thing he said it still carried on asking him the questions didn't they?, terrible oh that's better two down, three hundred and ninety six million to go jolly good, oh that's it i've got a cold coming, i've decided oh no i hope you're not getting the chinese flu what? oh that's what's on the way from america isn't it? is it? it's, well its reached england it's not epidemic proportions yet no it's gotta be a is it it's gotta be a hundred in, hundred in a hundred thousand to be an epidemic, at the moment it's twenty two before christmas it was nine, so it's trebled, trebled doubled oh yeah, it said trebled on the news trebled, it would be twe it would be twenty seven a good programme on last night it was about b b c oh in the fifties when it first started and how does that look right to you? eh?yeah they are shrivelled up little nuts, there was this programme last night about the b b c when it first started in the nineteen fifties that was i t v, i t v started in the fifties, b b c was in the thirties oh well whatever, no it wasn't, they were on about the b b c it was on i t v the programme yeah okay well it was all about b b c cos it was saying how stuffy the b b c was and how erm get off ah the beverley sisters were on and they said they used to wear very daring clothes and the b b c banned them from showing their navels, cos you're not supposed to show your navel on television and you couldn't say the word, oh yeah lonnie donegan was on and he said that he was banned from singing this song er in eighty forty was such a little drip and in it he says we beat the bloody british and they wouldn't let him sing that because he swore so he had to sing we beat the ruddy british right and they were say and then he and at the end they all sang, there was joe brown, lonnie donegan, bert weedon, all the old nineteen fifties stars, hank marvin and all that and they were all singing and he sang that song with bloody in it huh, was cliff richard there? no so it was saying how times have changed, but they used to be very, very stuck up and it showed some of the early programmes and how people used to talk, oh so frightfully posh and so frightfully gorgeous and the words, and, it's rather pleasant isn't it, really rather nice knickers think we used to talk like that, what happened? dunno i mean whenever you see old films er all greasy this and every things in and the americans always portray the british as being oh jolly, stiff upper lip, don't they? yeah god only knows why cos they've watched the fifties films that's why said in the paper today that michael barrymore mother is very concerned about him because he's lost a lot of weight oh i his got nervous exhaustion ain't he? and it says there's been tales in the paper about him, i ain't read any i have that's what there reckoning he's got aids, is that what there saying? no their saying, i don't know he's got nervous exj exhaustion he looks terrible actually i said to dave the other week i said ain't he lost weight, look at his face, he's so thin i haven't seen a ph picture of him he was on last night, now that's quite a good programme what his programme? it's not strike it lucky, i can't stand that it's called barrymore yeah, that's good, he gets people out the audience and he goes out and about and sort of meets people with talent and gets them to do singing and that with people with bad throats no, he's good it was funny there was some can can dancers on at the end and there were sort of ladies in their sixties and he joined them oh god he's got such long rubber legs hasn't he, he looked ridiculous, but he aint 'arf gone thin, he's really gone thin so, now do i have to bake this blind first what's that mean? well do it with your eyes shut yeah, no you put it in the, yes bake blind in the oven at two hundred degrees, two hundred, mark six you better teach me how to make gravy if i'm going to polytechnic, because i don't know how to do it well the best thing to do for martin is get a, a oven a packet of bisto gravy granules is get a woman in and you just, yeah that's right just get a woman in, er bisto gravy granules and you just have, oops hot water and then that's it simple i'm gonna do that then it's alright, it's quite easy oh beggar right bake that blind for ten minutes what's that mean break, bake blind? well if you got pastry right, and you have to put a sponge on top like this is, it would go soggy, it wouldn't go hard would it?, so if you bake it blind you're baking pastry on its without anything on eh, whole nut smashing this one's actually plum jam, but i will use a substitution jam, raspberry er right, i've got to make the sponge now, done that eh, oh its another one, beauty almond flavouring, have i got any? just mind your head a minute while i open the cupboard, don't know scrap the bowl off those that's a point i could always grind some nuts up, with any luck, chocolate, colouring red food colouring gosh you've had that a long time yeah twenty p yeah, peppermint flavouring, artificial cochineal, green food colouring cochineal, er that comes from beetles i know, cockroach's insect, i don't use those cos they say colours make children go hyperactive, used to stop using them when we had geoffrey, cos he always used to go berserk yes so i'll have to grind some, almond flavouring right, self raising flour it's taking ages, oh can i have another cup of coffee? i'll bung the kettle on begger begger me that's what phyllis says what? oh you begger nurse lynn,and i go in, oh we do get in some pickles nurse lynn, oh you begger i don't even think i've done half of these yet you're doing well, four ounces of flour oh, beauty, photograph that one yes play it right, went to the rose and crown after south crostade and played darts pub crawl eh, rose and crown oh yeah, what's down there? yeah, i played darts against this bloke, scratch golfer oh yeah plays off none mm and i think, and he plays at leicestershire what's his name? i don't know was he good at darts as well? yes he, bit right, we played three men, you know you supposed to do it, it supposed to be five hundred and one yes well because there was three of us we went, it was seven hundred and one, like, their go, first bloke got a hundred and eighty, next one got a hundred and forty, this one got a hundred and twenty and me and matt got about forty each and rick and we were stuffed just bit, have you been watching any of the darts? dead interesting i was watching snooker last night oh that's darts innit?, oh right davis won dunno what the score, did he? yes did he? i didn't think he would it's er nine eight i think it was oh close then er it's davis said absolutely stupid thing he really did davis did? yeah, i couldn't believe it i mean you go back five years he'd never done things like that, he erm, missed the most easiest reds and left it right over the pocket and then stephen hendry went on and cleared up the whole frame, got a break of over a hundred oh i saw that one mm, that was typical mind you i think he needed this win to boost his confidence cos he's not been doing at all well has he lately? no i want to use this, i can't believe its not butter butter that's been in the fridge nine weeks it doesn't matter, butter keeps in the fridge apart from when grandma gives it ya she has to taste it first oh god got a bad stiff neck you still got a stiff neck? yeah i think you ought to go to the doctor's about that i dunno well have a stiff neck it weren't bad yesterday oh i never understand it and it weren't bad friday but it's come on again now coming on well yeah look at that cat can't you tell it's sunday yeah cat hovering it's always in the kitchen when it's sunday, see if she can get in the oven quick, if she had a pair of oven gloves, she'd get the meat out herself this is well er annoying this is why? doing this i know i give it to you, so time consuming i had a beauty i had a run there i had about four in a row which came out whole, but now i'm getting crushed nuts oh very painful it doesn't matter because i can put them in the sponge you'll have to do something with them what have i got to put which is very urgh, butter, no, sugar, one egg separated plus one egg yoke, how ridiculous what have i got to do there? er, whisk the butter and sugar until followed by now this could be better, oh yes, slightly better that shot off nicely somewhere where have i put me eggs? er, i'm over hitting these you're not playing golf no, i'm thrashing them too hard now what's that, one egg plus an egg yoke right you beauty stephanie likes cooking i don't, i like eating it don't you like cooking at all? not since my disaster with the soup in the second year oh that was terrible, mm tell you what it seems ages since i was in the first year, but not very long since i was in the second year oh it does don't to me why you don't want to be put off, gosh the number of things i've done that have not turned out like yorkshire pudding every saturday, every sunday well it never cooks properly does it? yes, well i've heard this before i know i've noticed is that the cat meowing then?tough luck if you want to go out, right so i've got this, butter, sugar, flour eggs, salt, lemon juice, i haven't got any i'm not getting much revision done here mother no, well you can do some later, i thought i had a bottle of lemon juice in the fridge, not the fridge robert loves cadbury's cream eggs i noticed last night, yesterday he had one and he said can i have another cream egg, so i said alright, cos there was a box of six, which means he's had two out the six, he said to me this morning, got any more cream eggs so i said not for you, you've got one for martin, so i said yes, i'll have his then cheek he did, i'll have his then, i said no you won't, but i like them, i know, but you can't have martin's, as martin will cry, i buy him another one he's absolutely mad on cream eggs, you never liked them when you were at his age, you don't really like them much now do ya? bit sickly, but i'll eat one mm. and i she must of . i don't remember buying her the jumper! mhm. when did we yes. buy that jumper? well she's obviously remembered. last year. must of been last christmas cos yeah. we bought her beads this christmas. yeah it was. yeah , i know you were buying a jumper one christmas. and we'd had some pearls i said, i said i don't remember buying you that, she said oh yes, she said you yeah. you bought it me. we always buy her that tha , well i mean we we bought her bag wi and we bought her beads this time. does she get er confused with her memory and that does she or oh yeah. oh no! oh no! maybe she's not norma , not usually no, she's not senile or anything. if if if, if i went down there you can tell when she lets me know. just gets depressed? yeah just gets depressed and that's . well don't forget, i mean your not long lost your dad and erm mhm. she must think about that a lot. oh it's ah yeah and and depressed and well she does and the hardest part, i think there is when she comes down in the morning and for five years he was there yeah. all of sudden he's no longer there and she still has to stay like it isn't. well she's been, yeah but i mean she's in that room. in the same er environment. same so and he's not there. that's right. and she was brilliant! yeah. i mean she handled the funeral great she handled christmas, new year and she's entitled to have downer. ooh mm. she is! although it's annoying at the time yeah. and and you just sort of resent one might resent going up there but it's not, she's not having a downer because of your dad no. it's just a normal thing that happens mm. with her. that's right. it's just grief isn't it? but it i mean it erm was taken on that she had one immediately sh , we lost dad mm. and over the people accept people won't be able to accept it more mm. because it was after mm. people take it that you know. well , it's different oh , take these ruddy things away for god's sake! with different people yeah. and presumably different ages as well and erm you know, there's no set rule to to getting over you know, the no. loss of someone very close to you. and, you've got your working day to keep you busy and all the other things that keep you occupied and as you say, she's she's she's in the, the nursing home and i mean, it's same environment all the time so, she's bound to dwell it on longer isn't she? she oh well she, i mean she she always had and they stopped her doing things. yeah, which and she mm. always has! i mean she's had sort of had this depression yeah. and the thing is, she sits a she sits down too long and thinks about it. i mean, she did it before even mm. when dad was alive. i mean, she doesn't read books mm mm. she doesn't do a a great deal. well i don't suppose she can do a great deal now, i mean she can't this is the one thing with these no, but she can! homes isn't it? no but she ca , i mean she's not that o , as good as they are . active now, i mean in erm in a way, it's not a normal life is it, because no when you get she doesn't really really talk you're in that place surrounded talk. people. no other yeah. sort of i mean when she is, is on her own i presume she'd go to her room if she wants? health reasons why oh yeah! but then well she's got nothing to do has mm. she, but the by what phyl says, she, she doesn't read so she said i'd like to do embroidery embroidery or crochet or something like that. yeah. she likes a, she gets a paper oh i see! oh well, at least she yeah it's something you know, isn't it? and er, she helps with a la er er lady next door and she reads through it . do the mm. crossword and there's other papers there mm. so they swap their papers. but er but there's still twenty four hours to fill isn't there? as far as that's concerned and you can't she's there. but she's up and down! she's helping and the next. everybody ray. in the house well there you are she's well that's what she likes to do isn't yeah. it? i mean, perhaps she's fills her day i don't know. and there's a there's three of them in this one room in, in the bedroom and they won't separate them cos and she, they're good for each other. mm. erm well like, one one night the er one of the sisters took one of the women upstairs and she said, i can't have my slippers there! she said, they have to be there, gwen puts them there! she has to have it and my nan always puts them in the same mm. place. i we when i same place. i was there saturday night er, and saturday evening and erm what's her name? dot, not dot who's the one in the room? dot . no the other one, what's the name er oh gladys. gladys. no. she's what's her names, charlies grandmother. oh! winnie erm what's wrong with you? that's right, yeah. she was going to bed she had a paper under her arm and her and her bag and she's off and she got up out of, so my mum said right i'm going now sort of , goodnight! yeah. and she was going upstairs to turn the bed down she'd done it for for everybody. well for the thre , for their room yeah. and this woman, she's ninety odd and she doesn't like being in the room on her own so when she goes to bed mum goes with her. she's gotta accompany her. well she hasn't got to mm. but she does, she's yeah. turns the beds down and that's i but she enjoys doing it, so that's a little bit for her to do. well i suppose it gives her er er, it gives her some meaning. looking after the old girl. she went in well but when she's and she was upstairs cleaning the other yeah. day wasn't she, she when you were there? and when she's go , when she's having having a good time she ta , she's like one of the nurses you know, she helps them out but when she's on her downer she'll sit there and she won't do anything mm. just as . and she'll just think about it, and the more she thinks about being depressed the more she'll get depressed in thinking worse. how much she's yes. worrying everybody. well it's extra burden isn't it? so she just, yeah. and she's giving the other patients their pill. yeah. oh dear! did you ever sa , you didn't say anything to her did you, about it? no. cos she said to me don't tell your dad. i wouldn't. what do you mean? i know you wouldn't the tray. yeah pu putting her on the other and are they taking them are they? they're only erm they'll take anything! anti-depressants tablets. well well before they actually went out jelly beans. the you know, the nurses and that were noticing that they weren't they get, i suppose you get to know who has what and that they thought aha. well they don't have them and then they drew them christ! out so to keep an eye on them. that could be nasty that though mm. couldn't it? mind you, if they're not strong. could of been nice as well though! powerful these, you know! cloud cuckoo land! they phoned her up . mm. and we haven't got more really, like like brian's doesn't have the time yes. to go up . well i mean you're both working full time aren't you? not when it's dark nights cos by the time i get home the dark nights make you feel tired as well. and then she was going to bed yes, it's going on isn't it? say half past eight, nine o'clock. all this entertaining you do. doesn't give you a lot of time for you know by the time you get home. when the light nights are here and we can stop up a bit later. can't you take that off there because you're gonna it. oi do you know what? he was taking this bloody little one more! thing early in the week out with him and he didn't know how to operate it, so half the tapes, i mean we checked them because he's he's gotta write down who is speaking on on those tapes you said they were anonymous didn't you? and yeah, well just the first names, so that they oh i see! can identify mm. who is saying what. ah right. they, he so it's gonna be louise, don't worry! i didn't say anything. are there millions of the louises. but erm he's, he's pressed the play button instead of the record button! and er so they've just tell them that ! you know there's twenty minutes you know and there's half an hour of of tape when he thought he was taping when it was just running. it's like when you were fixing the car then dad , to put it back together again. can i talk about my tyres ray? can i see if my i'll have a tyres are there? a small sherry please brian. okay, we'll have to make a move, i don't wanna leave it alright then. too late before we go back. have you gotta go and collect no. oh no no, he's at football they're getting a mini , minibus back. oh! mm. go on let's get rid of you now! go on! hang on! i'm scratching my leg! you're gonna get thrown out you know? how's your little yo little house coming? pardon? how's your house coming on? it's alright, we're not in there at the moment. no, no but mum was saying his dad's still in there. that doing some work now for oh no mm. you're getting all the ready. yeah, and he bought bought bits and that, and i got my little book, you know, my pictures in haven't i? of what i want and that. i gotta have now cos we'd have stick it in my little book ! items i will require. mm. we bought er a solid door for the front. mm. er mm. and somebody's gonna do the windows aren't they? yeah. but like,wi with the door dave's mum's sister was rubbing it in to try and say to his nan that we were kicking her out and so she got a bit funny over it! so we sort of like trying to hang on for the time being about the door. she's coming round,sh you know, she understands it's for her benefit as well because the doors on the council houses they're like that, just rotten! yes, they're all the same mm. aren't they? so, we thought we, no, we're not gonna do the windows or anything till we're in it, we don't want her to think er well it's the same place well yeah. yeah. i mean she's lived there fo , since the there was how many? she doesn't use the upstairs at all does she? no. she can't. she just uses like, the kitchen and the mm. the front room, yeah. just a few rooms, like this. like that's hard work for maureen cos she has to go down and help her. mm. mm. you know, sort her meals out and then come back home that's why she wants them to move in with her, cos they got like a little self contained flat there yeah. i dunno but she could she could have with a special facility for great! showers and things mm. like that, where she could cope on her own. yeah, i mean she's got e you know, it's like her own little place it must be the bedroom must be it's quite spacious. about this long is it? yeah, i'd say from about here round to reach that room. oh, longer! room. no, it'll be longer because you've got the shower unit and everything yeah. there, like the bathroom. yeah, own private shower unit, with a special seat so she could sit and have a shower. mm. mm. i mean maureen as one of the safety features for the yeah. flat. maureen hasn't worked for the last few years and she's ill herself, she's got hepatitis b. good grief! ooh well! which she caught through erm one of blood? the patients the blood on one of the patients! so she it's a terrible thing really! you know she hasn't worked so she thinks that, you know, save her having to get up early in the morning, go and do the fire mm. get it all sorted out. i see if the coal , other than, she does normally goes down and makes ohhh right! it up yeah. and mm a lot and i of work isn't it? it's bad enough in your house, they have to physically go out and do it for somebody else. mm. i said to bonny you know be careful and wear rubber gloves all the time, but she said well you can't always. oh for the hepatitis? can't get it can you? no. you know i mean, if you're a nurse oh it's erm they are very careful now though. i mean, when you go to give blood they use a, a pair of gloves every time. time. yeah. mm. and everything they use again same needle. it's a no it's a no, it's in a sealed sterile pack very funny! no, you can always tell the very droll! ones who are making black puddings! oh! oh ! it's up to here, isn't it? you know they hey, come on! the er i re , i better leave your magazine. i'll see you later. go on get your shoes on and hurry up! alright! i'm coming! come on ! come on! i must read the magazine i've just bought. this is our night! where's my nights ? i thought cos i thought what a load of sorry microphone! cobblers! you know these you know, oh! what? go on, take no notice of him! you know these magazines that the jehovah's jehovah's witnesses it's mhm. gonna be your next jehovah's witnesses talk! erm the, give these magazines out don't they? awake. oh mm. yeah! the wa , this is have you ever seen one? the watchtower isn't it? we get them frequently! the watchtower? this one it was saying about blood transfusions a million. what's it about? it really does! well that's what they believe in. oh yeah ,the they've said yeah. that for years! it said yeah. that at last two thousand people one of their main die each year! fidos isn't it? yeah. and i think well just think how many people would die if they didn't have the transfusions! but they don't mm. put the figures for that do they? oh they're nutters they are! yeah! i won't argue with her now. now do you see? i'll just say i'm sorry! sorry! go! it's not worth arguing with them is it? well is that it? oh it's yeah. right, i'll see you at the weekend. see you again margaret! bye love! take care. see you love! take care erm, louise. no, i won't! take care. yeah. you might as well take that off cos it's going to sound awful, you munching in your mouth! i'll , that's all. i hope the . goodbye. say hello to dave won't you? yeah, i will, yeah. i am, yeah. yeah. can't you take . . did you sponge those trousers down matthew's dog jumped all over you. no , they look alright now. oh it's washed off has it? must of been clean mud, i dunno! yeah. will be there. that's why we want company. yeah. alright love take care won't you? it's clean margaret! bye! bye love! bye! mm. that was unexpected wasn't it? yes. totally! totally what? unexpected. unexpected. seeing louise yeah. tonight? said she'd be back at the weekend. it must be a month since you've seen her? mm, she's, she pops down when she can. dave doesn't. nice. never comes with dave very often. it's a good run isn't it? you know, if er i mean, if you work. well that's only half an hour isn't it? from wrexham. mm. you know. about twenty minutes where they are. maybe about five minutes. she's alright. and how's mark? i've fine. i'm finished with . he's out cleaning. i will one of these days. he's got exams coming up in april. debbie's doing half her training at the moment, she's erm training to be a financial advisor. you said she was going . oh yes, she was saying, very good! yeah she so she has to go on a a monday night, and she's had a few day courses as well. she's mm. had to go in the day. when's she taking the exam? i don't know, but she's been doing it for a while. do they get a wage, you know for when they become a like you know yeah. a financial advisor say with a building society? oh yes, she'll get a but do they give it to her? no is it a is it a wage or in the sense or she gets a wage. so, they're working full stop? for a company? but i imagine they got not if they don't work or something, do they? they're independent. well the one that saw us worked for halifax. yes, they work th if i pay was salary but there it's and the and they they're not usually allowed to recommend just the halifax. they offer to recommend that's right. what's best for you. yes. that's why they're independent. that's right, and she didn't ta erm we didn't do this erm oh well! er annuity with where's my ? at the halifax. but whereas agency could verify these. erm not what's its? it was another company you know? and she said i know. well it's up to you and we we, you know, we don't this is the best one. just there to say what's the best. cos i for what they want. you know? mm. and do. and they will go by what you want from it for the o , over the next few years you know? honestly they . but erm so er i mean, but i i often wondered whether she got commission from that or, or not if they're supposed you got the headphones for it? to be independent? presumably they don't. yes. yeah. and she was very nice! i think they don't. and er er, talk about being nice, but she really but we've in knew the machine you know? mhm. you know, everything and that filling in the thing every day. their best one oh i see it you know, and it was there at their fingertips. very good! very efficient! twenty tapes to that's fair enough. can you keep them. this after? down there. no, not that. chewing now margaret! no, i'm not! you are, i saw you! you are! he had a cup of tea at carrie's today just you know, checking the tape and making sure that people's names are on it in the correct order and what did you do ? go on! you don't take it to bed with that do you? wouldn't make any difference anyway brian! but tha you'd only get snoring on it! hey, you could tape him in the night so he can believe you next time, that he snores! i might do that actually , yes. he doesn't snore do you mate? what about you waking up and sno talking! that's because of the snoring an well that's alright. woke up one night and i heard this voice er can't remember what you said now no hey! get off! i almost went yo totally deaf then for about two hours an good! you'd gone to sleep! well you know what it's like now to be woken up in the night! mm. we were woken up by it's terrible! some noisy rowdy neighbours or i no, i don't think they were neighbours were they? oh, saturday night, yes! you don't know who it was? we had an early night, i mean we were literally shattered! mm. erm so by about nine o'clock we absolutely knackered so we went to bed. about half past nine wasn't it? mm. i mean, we'd just gone straight away well in fact, we fell asleep down here that's why we went. you did! mm. alright, i did! you went first! i know! so that's why we went to bed and erm two o'clock in morning we heard this football being kicked o on the main road at the side there. well that's not neighbours is it? well no. and then i heard some shouting and i, i looked out of the window, i mean it woke us up! then he got dressed, then he went and shut the gates, then he came well i'd le back in! i left the gates open. what time was it, two o'clock? two o'clock in the morning. mm. and i'd left the gates open an oh it was friday! not saturday. friday night. wasn't friday night, it was saturday, course it was! anyway er i went out and i shut the gates and just let them know that you know, they'd sort of i wa i was checking wait a minute! now there was something in the paper tonight about the ruckus you said i'll have to ask brian about that. it was at the mechanics wasn't it? what what night was that? was that saturday? there was seventy people fighting outside a mechanics! that's right! and you said about that. ooh i didn't hear that! you did last night. it was oh was it las last night? last night? are you sure? oh! well perhaps it wasn't. yes, well they're not that bad in the news are they? well i i know they're slow but it's not an it's not instant reporting ! no the war's over! like i said they we erm th th didn't say whether they were connected with pub. there's some suggestion that they weren't. well the men from mechanics weren't they? the gang was from erm where did it say now? i dunno! i haven't, i didn't read it actually you sa what you told me. outside the mechanics. oh it's raining! but you didn't hear anything last night? no. so they've arrested there no. were three three in court anyway, i hope they've all this lot. it's stupid! well, so, no it wasn't saturday night then. so what happened when you got out ? well i went outside and i shut my gates and they saw i mean, er i was looking at them as i was shutting the gate, there's only three of them! mm. and a couple of girls so they got the message and then the they moved off down towar down the bottom. and then there's a bit more shouting and they ran through the entry. were they drunk? oh, they were drunk! anyway, er got back to bed they weren't doing any harm were they? no. just noisy. just noisy. they were just noisy and i thought well this, i've left my gates open well, it's breaking the law isn't it? oh yeah. oh yeah, but by the time you ring the police ray and the they've gone. come by the time they respond you mean! that's right! well, don't . then it's all quiet and we've wouldn't be very hard to find them on the streets would it? oh no. and when the police car comes round ray and they can't do anything until they actually ca hear them. they mm. hide i suppose when they see the oh,ye , even if they're just quiet mm. all the police can do is tell them you know? they shouldn't be on the yeah. streets at two o'clock! oh! why not? why not? yes why not? they could be walking home from anywhere! don't walk home! it's no no they have to be hearing something they mm. have to making a nuisance of themselves otherwise the police i don't know can't you have to be able to i the police can't stop you. what are you oh. doing? yeah! they can ask that. the problem is as long as you're going somewhere we'd gone to bed early and we'd had our deepest sleep and of course we were i told you that. our slee , sleep was getting lighter at two o'clock. maybe we'd that's right! gone to bed at half past at midnight. eleven i wouldn't of heard it. i would! i doubt if we'd heard it. i wouldn't sleep mm. through that though! no way! well, they moved off and then just getting back to sleep must of been half an hour after we'd and heard this voice shout what you doing? as if erm no, what's up with you now he said? that's what it was. and i looked out the window, i couldn't see anybody next thing a car moved off so whether it was same crowd i don't mm. know. but that was all i mean after that there was no vandalism. trouble is when it's so deadly quiet in the middle of the night as it is here and you don't expect it do you? okay, so it does disturb you. but, and this is like a er a wind tunnel cos down between the house here mm. sometimes, and if anybody's over there you think they're in the back don't you? it sounds as if they're in the back garden or something! you see. mm. mm. and it's because of the channel between the two houses, and it really does yeah. literally come down funnel the sound. yeah. mm. and i i it magnifies the sound as it's coming through so you're lying there and you think, there's somebody in the back! plus we've got a leak in one of the erm er gutters i mean, so when it rains it goes drip, drip, drip and it pours down oh yeah. when it's that bad. they're only clip , and i mean, i've gotta get up there and scrape them out. they're only clipped together, oh no there is a plastic, the the new ones. oh they're oh, so it's it's only clipped together come a come apart has it? mm. mm. yeah. so i shall we moaned about jeffs, and ours is just as bad! ours is flooded! get phyl on your shoulders! i got the ladder. well it's alright as your er, okay with heights and i mean i'm not no, i'm no good one she's bloody hopeless this one! and especially when it's on the cor oh, i'm terrified! and it's on the corner so it's a difficult i mean it's right down . oh yeah, it's at angle yeah! so it's i mean you yeah. put the ladder on the ang right on the cor that's a long way up isn't it bri? it's a long way down ray! shall i ask the window cleaner to do it? do what, sorry? fix it when he's up there. what's he gonna do? confessions of a window cleaner. can't through there ray. cos i need a wall there to give me so but that's our little story for oh yes! mm. the evening. well, how eventful week! we went to erm go on, you tell her, you're gonna jump in aren't you? no, no. oh! only when you say, what did we do? or is, what happened oh we went bowling. next? we went bowling after the shopping on saturday. well that was exciting! ten pin bowling. just the two of you? mm. er do you mind? we ne but er excuse me! yo you tell your story! no, we went out on sat , er sunday to erm where did we go? isn't he right twit ! we went to i wanted some foam an and material for these chairs and divan we chairs. i wouldn't be surprised if we didn't pass you cos we went, we came back that way. excuse me! probably did. did you go to look shut up! at that ? we went on the top road. yes. yes. i said to and we stopped at the market on the way back. abugally er no the ship market. oh no. we went the what? to abugally it's near the town hall, it's a the market was there so it's really good that market! she sa , she sa market they were ah but what was the weather like? we went to the market on sunday i mean there is a load of ! go in erm,abugally market we hadn't got any we got there, we didn't have a pound coin for the what's a name? machine. for parking , yes. and ray went to this little cubby hole where these two fellers were one of them looked like a policeman didn't he? said, have you got any change for the machine? said, oh no mate! so, ray said well what are you gonna do? and they sort of said, well we'll have you! you know have you arrested sort of thing ! well i says are you gonna clamp me or he said well we'll tow you away he said! i bet they ray! they go so anyway i said, oh well get some change and i was on the point of sa i said to margaret shall we jump in the ruddy car and we'll get back. yeah. and then we should of just got in the car and left there and then, parked i'm round the corner! i'm too soft like that. stick to the anyway , it's only a pound. a pound!well we were only got the foam there for five minutes! yeah. got the foam so that's what we went there for, this this horrible night! the foam? somebody's chairs and you fo fo fo foam! oh foam! ah this . any rate we thought it mi , d ew, ereht togrday kinsale hall. yeah. it obviously wasn't. no, that wasn't shut. i was gonna we cos we went up past there. was it? to get well he en , insisted on driving all the way up the drive, i said if it were on there would be a i didn't! sign at the gate! you said go there! did you come back down to the no main road, and it choc-a-block then! no we were alright. oh yeah, it were! cos i went up then past well i didn't kinsale hall and up mm. through and carried on up through what time was that when you well we missed any traffic. it was about four o'clock wasn't it? oh no, we were in the mi well late morning. oh no! half eleven. but anyway no. we went to conway i said the mike was on, he said unintentionally left it on while what's her name that opened the er antique but place. we were heading for llandudno junction. llandudno junction. they weren't open. like you say, i'm sure it's only us that does collingdale oh it's here! go, go this way! and i checked we were on the causeway. well margaret guided us to ruddy conway in er, anyway, we got there and we had a bit of a bar snack didn't we? mm. did you have a look at the new conway telephone no. centre? it's over the road to it . you know, but i mean short of actually going through it, which we'd no need to, we thought no. i liked it! i must be nineteen fifty three the last time i went to conway it's all changed now. the cinema's still there but it's now, what is it, bingo hall now? well i do , i mean i didn't know it anyway. saw the eye of the monkey there. but they it's built the back from the main road now ray. mm. is it? because of the new road. like i say, it's a long time. mm. and i said to margaret, ooh i sa the smallest house in britain, is is in conway mm. estuary. cos we just went onto the front and there it is. mm. and this great big long board. it took you from to there! brawith house pointing and the roof's only about three feet long ! you don't open one window it's it sort of thing a ruddy doll's house is it? mm. well, no no. no! it's er it is an actual house, you know. it it's sort of we almost like an end of terrace, if you like and the roads free to go in and look round, i don't think it's open but it's only the width of the front door and a window. yeah, well you said the roof's only well it's it is it's a, it's the oh it's width of a door. no it isn't, it's it's a le that's all it is! well the door was wa wasn't as wide as the walls was it? wasn't it's much there was three foot first,. there were only a few inches no it'll be from here either side of the door weren't there? yo , about the width of your settee, i would imagine, the house. well i didn't think it was that wide. it's ridiculous! and how high? normal height it was almost as i say it was tapped on to a row. so so there they had to be how do you sleep? standing up? sounds like a . well on the end of the wardrobe! i suppose it was deep. probably went back a few it was the dwarfs. feet you know,ha skinny people! just a a novelty. so you enjoyed your run up? i tell you what where what we've found well we were gonna have a look at the antique places but none of them were open. where, where you know did we go when we went up you know the tudor rose? yes, we do know that. oh yes, we found well a nice place, a meal didn't we? we found a lovely place up, but for a sunday lunch. oh, ken was asking us about that. three ninety five. oh i must tell him then! where was it? and it's tudor rose. no. it's you know as yo yup yup yup shut! i if you're coming up from deeside now towards the queen's ferry sort of tudor rose, you come to the traffic lights, then you go instead of turning left lost! turn right. instead of turning left, turn right. hold on, your mother's lost! wait a minute, i'm lost! coming up say yeah. that again. coming up from queen's ferry queen's ferry two mills you know the two turn right. mills oh yeah. yeah, you have mhm. a little chef on your right little chef. turn right there and go about half half a mile, three quarters of a mile down, you got the yacht pub yes. it's been there years! is that on the right or the left? on the right, just set back a bit. oh we've seen it, yeah. but it's a miller's kitchen now. this is between there and then the monty's of leicester monty's of leicester yep! and it's right. absolutely it's three ninety five that's good, yeah! and that must be about it's for your roast. only if you like roast. yeah. yeah. oh well that's no good to us is it? no, it's three ninety five no, i meant for ken he's is your roast ken asked us for but you can a good place for sunday lunch. there's a choice of two vegetarian meals which are four twenty five aren't they? oh they do, i see that yeah, yeah. but what they do, because of the volume if you want the traditional lunch you have to have the roast or beef whatever or which is rib beef, yorkshire mm. pudding and it is absolutely nice! it is nice cos when brian ordered i said i'll have chicken and he yeah. came back and said well you can't have chicken cos they only they don't do chicken and er i would preferred the chi so you're supposed to have what so i had it, and honestly i did enjoy it, and it wasn't tough and it wasn't you didn't have to chew it! it was nice and , i mean you got ooh quite a lot of beef, and it was nice beef! mhm. and you had roast potatoes new potatoes yorkshire pudding. yorkshi , big yorkshire pud two veg well carrots and green beans. and they were fresh weren't they? mm. so it was a nice meal. that's good! but it that's very cheap! and the deserts got no? no, that was just fo , oh well i mean it's , but for three ninety five it was just your roast that's it. but i it was well worth yeah. that. i mean well it was absolutely choc-a-block! well we we're going round conways we sa , we'd gone into a pub for erm we had sort of granary baps didn't we? and salad. and we sort of walked round the town and back to where we'd parked the car and there were there were places you know, pubs and cafes which are lot of eating places there and yet is was empty! mm. well we weren't anyway there was very few pe , i mean at this time of the year i suppose but there was one place and it said sunday lunch, there was a sort of black board outside, sunday lunch erm four pound was it four fifty it was four fifty wasn't it? think so. and it was a starter, it was soup for a starter, and it was there was a sweet board as well. roast beef or pork mm. and a choice of two deserts, which was treacle pudding or some, whatever else it was! that's good! cos i did look i , i said to ray, good god! and we'd paid two ninety five mm. for our baps and a bit a salad, you know! and i said really, it's cheaper to have er a full you know, i mean you wouldn't want an evening meal obviously if you had that cos if well it all depends if it's value for money because we er, we fe we felt that it's only one day. we stopped at this place you got bulk pra quantity rather than quality in there! and it was oh! erm tinned two ninety meat two ninety five wasn't it? and vegetables! oh! three course for sunday lunch. mm. and it was a three co , it was a three course sunday lunch. it was sliced roast beef that comes out of er sliced roast beef it looked as if it a foil! it was mm. like the stuff you get from microwave. the shop. wouldn't eat it! the bird's eye stuff you know? already cooked. mm. erm and really, you only got what you paid for. mm. mm. mm. and we thought we er, we we should of realised that one was cheap. it was cheap. yeah, two, something, like well this two something, two sixty five or something! mm. which is near impossible! but said that they went on tuesday evening they had some people over and they were looking we were gonna go for a meal in chorley er they'd come over from grantham, and they were going over on the night on the night ferry, on night boat from hollyhead. they were going to ireland. rather than, sort of , go from manchester by plane what, they decided they'd drive down and take the car over so we were supposed to be going for a meal and they said, where shall we go for a meal? well i said you're going towards hollyhead i'm going towards north wales why not en-route let's find somewhere and stop and have a meal there, rather than have a meal in chorley and have to drive all the way down. yes. and that way, it was sort of an hours drive from chorley to the two mills for mm. them. so they only had two hours further on to go from the two mills then to hollyhead basically. mm. so we were gonna go to the two mills but i've heard about the miller's kitchen so i thought, we'll try it. anyway erm my meal, mine my two course, i had erm home-made soup, and you get this erm massive great wedge massive wedge of granary bread and and you get your fro ,yo yo your soup and then i had er the home-made steak and kidney pie, you know mm. i mean, i like that and i had a couple of cups of coffee, i think mine came to about five thirty five. that's very good though isn't it? but i mean, wasn't paying for it, they were paying for it mm. but by doing it that way, i mean i phyl was er bowling tuesday night and i said i was probably having a meal out anyway mm. so there was nothing going to waste and it was nice for me because once we'd said goodbye i just had ten minutes, quarter of hour drive home and you were home. and i was home. mm. but they had a meal erm rather than and a break from the journey. and a break, yeah. that's right! mm. so all they had to do then was go on to hollyhead and they were refreshed they'd had a meal so they wouldn't be dying of hunger. mm. so, it worked ideal, and that's when i first found this place or heard about it well i heard . no, somebody told us about it didn't they? oh yeah! jack and pauline had been er but we've never er ventured to it. right. but on a sunday erm the restaurant is open from twelve o'clock so what you've got to i mean if you want a table for say, four or six of you mm, you've gotta be there or you've gotta be there bang on twelve o'clock. oh! i mean otherwise it's gone. we can have a drink because they won't reserve a table i suppose no. will they, no? but we had ours in er in erm in the bar,we the lounge. in the bar. well the la the lounge you mean. the lounge side of the bar. it was very nice! it was very nice where we were wasn't it? and it's all been modernised the place has and there's a a nice if you've got a a family, a young family mm. or there's six or seven of you together yeah, there's a family room i think or something you'd got in there. four or five tables which overlook the garden. mm. they got the french windows and i , it looks it i , really is nice! nice setting then. yeah! er but then they got an upstairs as well. it really is nice! and er it's certainly value for money. mm. well it's funny because erm, when we saw ken the other day he was saying that erm his niece rang him up and erm she's er she's gonna be in crewe this weekend for a friend's wedding and, i think she must be coming up with some, some other girl as well, because the two of them, he said, i'm taking two young ladies out on sunday for lunch where's a good place for a sunday lunch you see? so we were sort of wondering, you know, where mm. to recommend so, i mean, i said well i don't know about that you know, the toby inn, i mean i know it's a mm. all a chain aren't they? but er in north of hull, cos he said i don't wanna go too far no. erm and somewhere sort of reasonable. i mean ee it's awkward for him now because i mean he's he's not a dab hand like some men, like they, he likes messing about with menus and you know in the kitchen he yeah. i mean he only likes a very simple diet himself, so he doesn't he would eat experiment with food at all. he would eat the roast wouldn't he? so he couldn't do anything oh,ye well yeah! he probably just wouldn't but eat the vegetables! yeah, but wo yes he'd just have to i mean, peas and potatoes that'll be the limit! these girls you see, they might they might in the vegetables. and er well i said to him, well he can have he can have lasagne and chips couldn't he? they cou , they could have all the they do a yeah. vegetarian meal. there's two oh i'm sorry! really nice vegetarian meals on the i thought you meant menu. ken ? well, no darling i was gonna say ken he sort of suggested he can't er he said, i i'm wondering whether to do a meal myself at home. he can't that! he couldn't . even if it's somebody else you know. erm well i said it's a bit awkward really so er because i mean shame really! yeah it is. it is a shame! like you know sometimes i mean i'd especially today! they're perhaps vegetarian or something i'd teach him if wanted but er unless you know i think this is all maybe go for a while he might have done a roast dinner and that they yeah. you know, they don't want meat! and you're stuck then that's right. i said, and i , if you do take them out it's the plaice. you can have a choice oh yes! of course. well margaret won't. so they'll make you salad a light salad if you like. and he wanted that's right yeah. i mean if he a a steak and they had something well yes else. that's what he's having. yes, well this is it. but they haven't got any money. if you're eat i mean you well, that's it, it's good value isn't it really? oh i'll have to tell him about that. so it's the miller's kitchen? the miller's kitchen. it's it's the old yacht. near the pub. ye , i should there. think so, yeah. you've gotta well turn right turn right at the two mills two mills and it's depends when he wants to go. it's that pub. what day is it? sunday, isn't it? they're coming in oh it's the su the wedding's on saturday and they're coming up oh i se , oh alright. that's why i thought on sunday might as well have it well that might do then mightn't it? by the other two. that's what he said where's a good place for sunday lunch you see? so they'll nice setting. be there in the morning and it is a nice setting erm and three of them together give him a ring now. yeah well it's a what for? well in case you don't see him, you know, in time. well i probably will see him! i'm not gonna ring him tomorrow, it's wednesday! but if you fa well i just thought sorry! and if you fancy it one sunday you're gonna get give us , give us a shout. a smack round the back the of head in a minute! and we'll plan it. no, it was good value wasn't it? it was, yeah. but i think i would pay the extra and that and have a choice next time. ah, well you can do! it was just i wanted to see what that was mm. like mm. well you can pay the extra. i mean we we just we just don't like beef now. i'd eat no. a couple of slices. i don't mind now and again. and these are nice thinly sliced and it was nice beef! it was nice roast dinner! very you're having ro roast beef. and you didn't have to chew it. no. i mean mm. i hate it when you get mm chewing it. but that oh it wasn't bad it just tastes of indian rubber! mm. it was nice! it was good value. i'd sooner have cold meat than . but there's so many choices i mean you could have what you wanted. i'd sooner not have any beef at all! well, i, no, i mean i used to love lamb! mm lamb's tasty though brought up on ruddy isn't it? lamb for the weekend! i dunno it's ! we always had a lamb leg of lamb. cos we had to have lamb for years! famous welsh lamb. and we had some of and then cold lamb after pat's son invited us round for dinner, i never thought so say you know! that was tradition in them days. don't do anything that's what they did. that's what people did. particular for us you know we used to have some a while ago. won't do chicken or fish. but erm she did this roast lamb and ahhh the pair of us were it's too fatty! rolling around! and i said, gives him indigestion dunnit? mm. just couldn't eat it, i sa it was all fatty! , it's probably our diet, it's what we get used to. you know, it took ages to digest! i mean we eat that much veg vegetables it is fatty! and i thought it was just me, but ray was the and chicken same. mm. fish. we probably get used to that. well that's it! well that's it and i i i and you don't really want the rest. it's an easily digestible yeah. mm. and then they have steak ! erm food. i had a black pudding this morning. good mm. grief! yeah. all that cholesterol brian! i could eat hundreds ! ah, but think of iron. that's what the doctor told me to eat didn't he? what, black pudding? black pudding. mm. ooh, i tell you what you want though. for the iron? got a yeah. couple of things for you. you want water from, where was it i said to you? from er lourdes! no, no! from nor , somewhere in snowdonia they send this water all over the country and it's so full of iron germany, they buy it . but er, it's a good i don't know about cure, but whatever! dunno, something you read the rheuma in the paper yesterday. i told you on su on sunday! mm, i've forgotten now. er, rheumatism, what else was it? i dunno, i didn't read it! something else like that, you know, but the iron in it is marvellous! because it's rich the mm. the earths it comes out of so they're selling it by the bottle in germany. mm. the other thing you got vitamin g was it? d! gonna say, i've never heard of g, what's that? vitamin b one. very good for you! good for the liver. is that what's in this water? oh no this is no! no! this is iron! yeah. but they're doing a you might as well just buy a series up in the er iron and multi-vitamin or jus just iron tablets! in the observer you see, and they're telling you you've got all these, the good i dunno whether they whether you have to absorb these how to live till you're a hundred you know, live a good life. and this all the these things thickenings really. course the emphasis is on don't smoke! well drink and all that i know they do say if you eat a balanced diet you shouldn't need supplements. plenty of er, you know pulses and cereals. mm. but i think when you get a certain age which is plain most of things cos you do need supplements that's what you're eating mainly anyway! er that's right! yeah. but i mean, do you actually absorb them do you? i think occasionally we do. i mean, they say you're supposed is it fortified? the best way to have these vitamins in with be nice though wouldn't it? to be with your diet cos it, then he gives all be able to yeah. not have to worry about any of it? so instead of swallowing vitamin c tablets just eat what you want use a main juice all ti the way we used to. or eat more oranges. no, i mean if er vegetarian pulses vegetables you can eat erm other things can't you? there's so many things like if they you can do with them. with erm but but when you're working with us working, we don't have like the time green cabbage and to prepare it all mm. butter beans. and, if it's left for too long i was reading the they erm oh , yes! the yes. so that's right, yeah. but phyl doesn't i know what time i'm gonna be in anyway. and er i bought some last weekend. oh yes! yes. but except when she's got the cars out it's the and i'll sort of ring to say erm well first of all i had it in one sachet you get er your but now i haven't got it it would be handy cos in what do they call it? your evening, just coming home your daily dosage or whatever! of erm ring to say calcium i'll be home oh! in just good! one sachet. i mean, i i bought it in a jar and it was it was funny at the poppy actually and they said i mean ah, garlic to me is an unknown quantity. he was nosing along the shelves and i said oh! what about and of course horlicks? he said i haven't those for years! i do no, butter wasn't it? making the water. on the, on the ration then it was. well firstly mind you, i mean there's no point they'll be looking up the first word of each of these no, but it could have several cheeks, quite often yes. you think so? as one word you mean? is it two words or one? well it's hyphenated. well it'd be hyphenated wouldn't it? i thought. what's those things? oh, of course! you want one of these, is this any good this thing? see i well what is it? what have you got brian? it's a mini computer. i was reading it, i just can't remember what it said saddle. oh it won't be in there! haven't you got a good dictionary? yeah, i've found one. hang on! with explanations in. no. yeah! what? i'll find one. oh! we've only got a small oxford one. has it got derivations in it? mm. yeah. oh well then, that'll be in there! erm rogers got rogers! hammerstein? a book. mm. he's got an itch did he say? i'm in an invalid's chair. it's got mm. i'd be inclined mm. to ooh!glass off! to guess anyway because the i it'll keep them mm. nice and warm that would you see wouldn't it? the and it's got the drawer underneath it, it clipped underneath for a thingy what do you think mm. it's under? what ? mm. put your crutch under there couldn't you? only one. could be anywhere. mm. telescope crutch goes under there brian! a telescopic crutch. but yo you want , nothing on? we need some drinks brian. yes, well i'm gonna erm learn it, hasn't he? i, i don't want another oi drink brian. that's i've just given this to our carrie. no, you haven't it's ours that! oh! it looks like the same i , is it the same as our one? it is the same one! the pocket oxford? , it's the one we had for many many years! the one we bought honest phyl! saddle chair saddle cheek was it? saddle cheek. saddle cheek , yes. it's very ela it's not in here. it's too elaborate for a hall porter's chairs isn't yeah. it? definite! no. it's yeah definitely too fancy for that. that's it. well maybe it's a masonic throne then! it is! i've seen one before. have you? mm. you can tell me, you're in the masons the best saddle, saddle, saddle have you seen the saddle handshake and the the no, they haven't got it. did he? it's not in here. no? got saddle bag, saddle shape saddle horse saddle saddle saddle bags got saddle bag. c will come before h. saddle horse saddle bridge. want lunch? no. seducing power. saddle. i mean,ye , because it's saddle seat! yeah. because it's leather erm eh. bound, leather covered he did say it is it may very comfortable! yes. it's a masonic it makes you think of saddle doesn't it? you ought to buy a masonic one. but erm what er persuades you to say that i wonder? pretty stupid! a most obvious reason! is it ? yeah, but there's gotta be a reason? don't be silly! anyway, dad says he's got it. cheek let's have in the book. ! go and put it back! i'll have that . don't speak to anybody. how do you spell cheetah? i've peas in a pod. bloody forgotten now! c h double e oh that's right, yeah! chee the side wall has gone. cheetah. by jove! didn't think i could make it. well what's that saddle? did you see anything under the saddle? have you looked? well well obviously ! well, i haven't been watching what you were doing! you were just asking me, what about saddle? i said, yeah seven er saddle's eight. . seven or eight. now, well how can you get erm three and you have to have a book on er chairs i would imagine. well if it was that easy, i don't suppose they'd put it in in here would they? well they're giving you all the alternatives so a yeah, so if it were in the dictionary, i mean i know you able to turn to the smacks of er, cilla black straight away. cilla black? mm. where's the connection there? programme or whatever it is a lorra lorra idiots! mm. yeah, i think it's the invalid! no, i don't think it is, i think it's too daft for columbo but that's right! a rich invalid, i mean you wouldn't be good but what they forget oh! well why not? well i had in our our our . book here mm. and what i found is that one. which , which are you going to miss out? which year? erm this the nineteen ninety one edition. we've got the ninety two one now! ner ner ner ner ner ner i'll give you that when you come up. right! we'll have a look see. yeah, that's a point i must have a look in martin's fridge. i've looked dear! i'll have a look brian, right, or shall i wait till tomorrow? i'll look tomorrow. got it, did you? mm. oh i didn't know. right, what we have here in my book ooh i'll tell you in moment in your nineteen ninety one! my nineteen ninety one edition right, there are er wing armchairs ah no, no, no, it's not that, now let's see, i've something like yours, let me think. oh that was a lambing chair it wasn't that one was it? did you look in the other one, the nineteen ninety edition? no. no. didn't seem to hang like that though is it? you know what we missed? wouldn't say they were what? chairs, but what have we missed? the antique show in chester on river dee. oh yes! in fact,like that oh yeah i saw that, yeah! about month ago didn't they? i missed that! i got the chronicle last week and there in it cos you got the haven't they? there in the chronicle was this thing to say what a good response they had! and i went mm. darn and blast! that's me. oh gee. it's frustration all time isn't it? oh it's nice to look at though ray. oh i know. mm. i wanna take some home with me. one of the little will do! the only thing we'll take from there is a bit of dust as we walk a georgian denville that's all i ask! yeah. no, i wanted that! you wanted a chaise. alright, both! where the hell is this stupid chair! which copy is that brian? this is the one mark and deb bought us, the antiques roadshow. ah yes! it's very, very good! anything you like there? or haven't you been through it? well this erm there's the bottom of your cupboard here. ha, mm mm mm. oh yes! yeah. what do you mean, you mean? you know wha the, the erm the pine one? yeah. er yes. similar like that, mhm that mm. that it er er, perhaps a good one. is that talbot? well we wait a minute! so as your pots! they're similar similar design but mm. but any resemblance much, much better! is . what's it worth though? i i think any resemblance is purely superficial. well it doesn't matter! there was something about a chair. i saw a chair! what about did you watch the antiques roadshow on sunday? yes. missed the very beginning did you see that of it. erm that davenport, that tall davenport? mm! yes! wowee it was a standing davenport wasn't it? mmmm! yes, very unusual. absolutely wonderful! wunderbar what was the er the thing that was interesting in that? er i lost this blinking chair! can't remember now. very, he was supposed to read the whole of it. mm. don't know what the hell i've done with that chair marg ! yo , are you sure you've seen it or the one that was like it? same one mummy. it's in there. mm. must be, did they say the age of it? probably mm, on the, no no! seventeen something er, ooh well i'm saying no! er what's say there ? i didn't read all the blurb. don't know what it said. probably seen them like i said on a ship. in a film or a play somewhere. television. yeah, see there's there's your sedan chair. oh yes, the one that was like a upright type one is mm mm. they were carried about in. where the the poles went no it doesn't you a name. through. want this? mm mm. in the , that till i find the bloody chair! oh, some with notes on! four song girls. oh this is ridiculous! i thought i'd seen it in here let's have a look. and the chaise is there, yeah. i know,. beautiful! look here,the there's a programme on about er, rembrandt here and it said of the ni , nine hundred and eighty eight rembrandts in nineteen thirteen, only around three hundred are still thought to be genuine to a display of art mm. galleries worldwide! god, a lot profit . a lot of the , a lot of them were done by his pupils. but er well! well! well! no sorry! erh i suppose i these blinking davenports in here! beautiful! mm! one can dream can't we? well, this is it brian. yeah. that's that about all brian ! that's quite a nice book that. ooh yes! antique roadshow. yes. i saw that from a book club. from the children from mark and deb. what about this? it's a nice present that isn't it? this? oh . margaret, are you going to have same again chuck er just a half a glass erm okay. with toni , have you got any tonic water? i certainly have some tonic water. gets a bit heavy that orange doesn't it? well it's just that it's citric and er well are you gonna have tonic water darling? no, i'll have a small orange juice please. erh don't do a a lot of supper for me phyl, will you please? you can have what you're given! i just put the tonic in the same glass is that alright? oh that's grand, yes! it's a bit cloudy ! won't be a minute. to eat. you're not getting too much to eat anyway! oh that's alright. it is wednesday, the middle of the week and i mean well, this is it! monday's a big ba ca governor! can't we get what? can't not get anything. not getting much ! times is hard! i've got . we went along to the auction rooms this morning. anything good? er, well ray let us in on a little oak table erm and forget to ring up to find out whether who was the seller. yes, got it or not. oh, i'll have to ring them in the morning. but er, they had quite a few computers there, and i said to ray find out how much the computers are. anyway, he said er and there were two or three identical you know, in monitors yeah. and erm the er what's his name? and they were going take a look up there . er oh right. otherwise it'll make a hell of a noise! clatter, yeah. erm anyway, he said er oh he said they were about thirty two thirty two k those. mm. so i said, oh no,yes! looking for a something a little more modest than that ! but erm that's not thirty two thousand pound! well well i said to him, i said, well whatever that is but er he said oh it might be five hu it might be no it was five, he said he'll give about five hundred and well then fifty, you know? cos that's hundred ee and twenty five k that. yeah, i was gonna say it's a it's a business model isn't it? ha. erm thirty two k. it does do most things. but i said well he said, oh well you can't play games on it! i said i i wasn't thinking of that ! i mean, that's what the kids have got, the commodores. something in between i mean, you're talking of sort of, fifteen hundred the two. two thousand pounds for a computer so well, i said these have obviously come out that's still a good deal at that. of offices, or businesses mm. perhaps, you know hit the dust! but erm sort of thought of something in between, but he said he said those will probably go for about five hundred and fifty mm. i think he said. people will be ju and they had another one jumping at them. be ab , well this is it, yes! yeah! excuse me! have some more. . oh my yeah,. got it! i heard that brian! i heard that! mm. ahhh! have you found this chair that he was looking for in that? i don't think that chair could have been in that book brian. mm, i don't think it is margaret. i don't know where i've seen it. probably seen it in the radio times. i know where i saw it before! i've seen it before it was on the television! on sunday. in that programme, that's right! what time are you preparing dinner my darling? now. just that like that? yeah, that one there. i've been asked to bring this in like this. it's not my idea! you were just following instructions. it's way i , i , i just follow the instructions. phylli wants a drink of orange. yeah? what about brian? yeah. champagne or ordinary glass. er just a small one. erm is that too small phyl? no. is that enough? yes! good grief! there's only one slice bread. thank you very much. very good of you! you mean a doorstep? hey! possible! yeah, if you finally ! do you want mayonnaise margaret? i got erm another pot yep. in there if yo no, that's fine. there's some what do you want salad cream? oh no! horrible stuff! mayonnaise isn't it? no, it's not quite the same bri ! oh! and you've been eating it all this time! oh! thank you . and there's me thought it was all the same! oh shut up! mm. let him ramble! what are you drinking? is that just tonic water. tonic? mm. there's er there's plenty of orange margaret no, i don't want any more orange juice, there's too much acidity in it! oh right! so upset the old joints! didn't get any bitter lemon this week ee just clean forgot! no, i prefer tonic water actually. which one is mine? oh right! erm the one without the cling film over. thank you. i haven't put this in there yet. the one with the cholesterol. especially for you bri ! plenty of it! yes. better be loads of it! i don't want to see that er it's really saturated! ! how's it going at work anyway? you still working overtime or er right has it calmed down? up to now i haven't. oh i say that, when did i work overtime? monday, cos i couldn't go to the gym. it was late when erm i finished. brian, do you want mayonnaise? if you do bring the other one in . beg your pardon? do you want mayonnaise ? no, thank you. no. oh! mm! i think i'll try some of paul newman's dressing. oh yeah ! and it's all new systems all new packages! our own computer's going. this is with this new company now? yeah. so we're gonna be on-line to a a mainframe in ripon would you believe it! erm yorkshire! yeah. i'll be glad when ours goes! they got nobody to look after us! i spend half my time down in town there sorting out the problems! plus, you have to do all your own tape back-ups! so, i'll be glad to see it go! mm. cos we did have a young man i say young man, he was in his early twenties, he used to do all that, and he left and they never replaced him! well, he used to do other jobs as well! mm. and you really mi don't miss realise cos he some help. although he di he wasn't fully occupied you realised when they're gone. yeah. you know how much you well that's why he went probably! probably because he wasn't fully occupied and the money was useless! oh, he left of his own accord? he wasn't pushed? yeah, he lo , left of his own accord. you're welcome. i've heard you selling the guy that showed you these two manifestos one by the tories and one by the labour and the one that stuck in my mind it's that the labour party will have a minimum wage to comply with the rest of europe. tories saying, if they have a minimum wage it will tear a lot of people out of work. and cause unemployment. what a bloody disgrace when you're in a democracy and they want minimum pathetic! wage! so you can employ someone for peanuts! ten pounds!no law against the swines! god help them! shows you that . oh this is disgusting! yes,. mm. mm, mm mm. mm. mm. don't do that! that's when accidents happen brian! that's what oh that's alright for you! hit my bloody shoe that will! i like to know about this polyunsaturated thing? what do you want to know about it? well this carrie was on today about it. i didn't put spread on your bread cos you said you weren't takers. i got that out. are you sti , are you taking it? still have spread on your bed bread? no. well not not if i have salad on it, anyway. you didn't no, i didn't put any on. it's only brian's. it's for me who put it on. do you see, do you see what was written on the olive oil bottle and it says it's got polyunsaturates. cos i thought it pure, you know ? it's supposed to be. natural. oh! natural! they don't put animal fat in it, surely do they? mm. they ay do! some vegetable fat they add a is very er loaded. er, yeah! very bad for you! and when mhm. brian had his cholesterol test on er little bit of paper they give you with all the information it tells you the only oils you should use are erm olive oil and saffro saffrall saffron. oil. mm. what about rapeseed oil? isn't that very no, didn't say that. mm. rapeseed that well they had a list of what to eat, and a list of list of what not to eat. and i'm eating all the stuff i shouldn't be eating! not tonight. josephine! so i i only saffra ,saffrall oil now or olive oil. mhm. i didn't realise that what about sunflower oil? no not sunflower oil. no good? it's better than er animal fat. all the vegetable fats are better than the animal mm. fat. yes, of course! be, i mean oh well we shouldn't have any rust. no. you think you're doing the right thing by eating olive oil pure oils but another twenty years, there'll be another turnabout ah yeah! won't there ? saying, you should be eating butter! should be well it said drinking whole milk! it said in the paper this week that erm broccoli is the finest vegetable you can eat. the finest green you can eat. mm. and it helps stave off cancer, didn't it? well it helps fight it did kind of like whatever! it helps fight the cancer cells it mm. said. where fats encourage it. er greens. but it specifically said broccoli. broccoli. but when tha , when the doctor was on in the morning, the doctor said it's the same as the carotene in carrot yeah, and not actually i was just going to say they said carrots not actually a while ago didn't they? was the said it's the not same it's the same sort of thing. and really the doctors have known that for years because a lot of cancer patients they put on er diets. vegetable diets. they can't have chocolate they can have this erm what's it called? not cova , is it coba or something? this natural chocolate. they can't have cakes they can't have anything that's got fats in it. oh! one minute they say you can't eat , and then they say that you can eat it! yeah! i think you've gotta try and strike a balance haven't you? you'll get paranoid if you well i think we all are to a certain extent! it's not knowing isn't it? everything in moderation is my answer . it's just some people that eat everything they live till they're ruddy seventy or it's makes you wonder! yeah, but i suppose they have to go by the general rule oh yes! but i mean, you'll always find exceptions won't you? i'll go along with that. well i'm not gonna last too much longer! much longer! if i eat another thing that's bad for me! you don't brian! you no, i do , i eat, i eat plenty of fruit and occasionally i'll have a bag of chips. very, very occasionally! we have we have erm fresh vegetables every day. mm. and black pudding! you're pretty active though aren't you? no. no. you're not very active? well i am but not me. and you're i'm up up and down stairs you're still fit. i will up i will up your insurance! yeah. get the policy and get him to sign before he does anything else! and stress! mm. stress is probably a greater factor than has been allowed for up to now. yes , but don't women you won't actually get give a lot of stress to men? pressure! i'm, i'm just asking the question! brian's not here enough to take any sp pressure from me! i mean, they probably don't! he's not here long enough! he works one and half shifts, or two double shifts . you stick with me! well, better than being ! that'll keep you in black pudding for a while, brian! carol's friends he doesn't though! he doesn't get paid overtime. it's erm these friends of ours, judith and peter, they've retired. they early retirement. oh the one from manchester? yeah. oh well. they retired the sixth of march. had they sold the boarding house? or have they no they've got a hotel. have they? hotel, yeah. i thought you were gonna say the children are having it. no, they sold it and er so what, what are they gonna do? nothing. they've got enough money not to worry. mind you, they've worked hard for mm. quite a few years, haven't they, to build that place up? sold herself to death that girl won't she? quite possible ! well she's but only she's only about forty eight and peter's about this yours? fifty five or fifty he's fifty five. six. she was a heavy smoker wasn't she? mm. but they've got the mobile home she is a heavy smoker , is she still? in there. in the lakes so, they're gonna spend as much time as they can round the up there. the lakes walking, which they love anyway. mind you, i think the last few years they they'd sort of erm relaxed a bit more mm. hadn't they? mm. yeah. but peter used to rush home on a on a sunday for the hotel for for the guests that were coming in sunday . monday morning you see, yes. or sunday afternoon oh i see yeah. start er, work on a monday wouldn't they, yeah? well it's one of those occupations or businesses that he had to be there more or less well while he was building it up. sure. round the clock wasn't it? it was no holidays for a but they few years. they sold it for quite a bit of money and well when he was thinking of selling it before he was talking about three hundred thousand. yeah. so i bet he's come away with a quarter of a million! oh yeah, the guy that he hasn't reduced it at all! he hasn't? oh well he's asked them what he was asking for it then? mm. this guy wanted it. did it take him very long to sell it? a chap saw it in november, no! sorry, september and really they weren't bothered about selling at that time although they always said if the right offer comes along mm. anyway, they went away and this chap saw it and er he made an offer and peter flatly refused it! they went away on their silver wedding was it their silver? in october novem they went on a cruise round the caribbean didn't they for it was november wasn't it? for three weeks or something? yeah, well that was their silver wedding anniversary wasn't it? mm. and they came back and didn't hear anything. anyway, just after christmas this guy says er i still want the hotel so peter said well you better put something down, you ge , better get something so he he went and put fifty thousand as a deposit on it and then said his legal advisers would be in touch and they had a month went by and they never heard anything, so peter rang up, he was telling me the other day, er, he rang up yeah, go, he doesn't want it you know? did he, did he have a the buyer have to sell some property? no. oh! no, nothing! anyway, erm he got a letter, erm when was it? gi , he got a letter a fortnight ago to say he wanted a completion date of the sixth of march! this this this chap my birthday! did and erm everything was through the money, everything, went in that fortnight! er, they had to be out so that was quite quick then really mm. wasn't it? they, they got straight out. anyway, er they we , they moved out last friday so this week when he rang me, they'd been round past the hotel and er there's walls being knocked down! there's oh god! everything! so what this people are gonna do with it bu but it's a prime location. perhaps he's getting ready i mean for the er, manchester olympics? mm mm mm. well, it's quite possible! long way to go for that! mm. so if it ever comes off? but peter and judith are the thing is, with peter and judith the , i mean their house is only a modest house isn't it? mm. isn't it? i mean they don't they've got a house in manchester haven't they? yeah. yeah mm. just a half a mile from the a semi hotel like. detached er . average home. type of house, you know? mm. and they're quite happy to stop there. mm. well! it's a quite a that's it , i mean they can live on well he their investments i suppose. well they didn't get a a good income. ooh yeah oh yeah! i'll say! i said to her judith, when she rang ah, what's the old man gonna do? and she said nothing! i said, he won't be able to she said i think he will. they're having a year mm. off aren't they? mm. before they well decide what they're gonna do. i was gonna say they're having the rest of their lives off by the sound of it! mm. i think he'll do something so, they may mm. mm. have to. and be involved in something. oh well go back to the should be very nice to have the money. swines! i hate them already! i'm not bitter! grinding the teeth! i mean he he spent a lot of money on the last few years on the hotel cos he had six extra rooms built on didn't he? yeah. he had a wing built on. i know you said he'd,ma , had all the rooms made mm. en-suite. mm. and er and that was quite a lot of money mm. there. the building, then you got the re-fit and you gotta re-furbish it and then he had a mm. four poster bed a sauna and a sauna. it was quite a good little ear , i mean it was a commercial hotel and mm. that, that was it, basically, but think it was well how long have they had it? about seventeen years was it? yeah, because it's only half it may be about that. a they only bought half of it mm. it was initially. half, it was a big house and the they bought half of it. mm. it worked out and then they only lived in the other half while they were doing it, wasn't it? then they bought the whole lot. no! they had half they converted all of it then did they? they lived in the basement. that's right, they lived in the basement. they bought half excuse me half of it and they lived in the basement, then the other half came up for sale so peter bought the whole lot then building mm. and then converted it into a you know, sort of, a modest hotel. mm. and er well obviously he's built up his clientele over the years oh yeah! and er it's paid off. it's a commercial hotel so he had all his weekends off. yep. mm. and friday afternoon they could get away off to the golf course. no! to the caravan or they do a lot of walking. they do what? walking. walking. i mean they're going oh! to majorca for a week but it won't be to laze around it's for it's for walking. mm. cos this is the ideal time to go. yes, that's right. can't think of going on holiday before it gets too hot. abroad and packing your walking boots though can you? no but, i mean well they do, they love it! i mean they they've got these soft walking boots, i don't know whether you've seen them? well cathy's mum and dad they're light do it, you know. yeah! only at night. oh yeah , cos i saw them once! mm. i mean, when you think of ours, i mean there's your she says you'd yeah! your feet are aching . no, but if we star , if we did it seriously, we'd have different boots wouldn't we? we mm. but we don't. oh well, alright! horrible thing! wait till the weather's fine we'll be up there. well we used well no wonder they go up to the lakes a lot, cos i mean, it's beautiful mm. up there, for walking isn't it? where they've got their van sited it is where are they? where is it? i mean it's erm just by newby bridge at erm newby bridge. we say er how can i explain? past kendal. yeah, it's past kendal mm. erm heading towards grange-over-sands mm. and they're about is that going west is it, or east? west. instead of going ah! it's in this is to kendal yeah. and instead of going kendal, and up to windermere to the right, yeah yo you go on the map! on you go there to the left towards grange-over- sands yeah. and newby bridge is just around there. mm. but it's a lovely erm location!itself i mean i well it is erm it is a proper mobile home and they've got oh yeah! a bit of garden where there's you know it's got like a little rockery and you've got mm. erm picnic area well barbecue area they've yep. got. nice! where's the photographs of it? ooh, i don't know. oh! but then it cost them sixteen thousand didn't it? with a site. how long ago was that? two years ago. mm. well about that. and the they they keep saying to us, why don't you use it. you see in the lakes mm, i mean you pay much more though oh yeah, you pay for the site. isn't it? yeah. this is the thing. cos it is a nice site mm. got everything piped on there so mm. is it erm are there are any residents there? is it a residential? no, it's only a te , well i mean you can only stay on it for ten months a year. ah yes! a year so er from the first of march to the first of october you can use the but after you can go up for the day. oh yes, but you can't not continuously occupy it. but you're not no. sleeping mm. there. and they like the erm the water, excuse me!they like the water drained out the site, you know, they like it sort of all the water switched off on, on each van oh yeah! through the winter mm. so there's no there not gonna be any freeze up. any problems at all mm. they can drain the whole system on the site so i mean you can go up there if you were going to stay and make a cup of tea and a sandwich or something. so you're taking your water with you. well you'd have to take a car er kettle of water. water. so is there somebody on the site all the time oh yeah then? there's a resident mm. erm site manager there. i think he opens the no, he can't do it on the site cos it's in er what is it? national trust. national trust land so well where they are you can only see a , one other van can't you? yet there's loads there, it's just the way the . oh it's on an elevated spot is it or the well sort, there sort of like little coves aren't they and they're you can only just see one van from where they are. oh that's nice because it's mm. private . oh yeah! i mean we had er it's like being in the woods isn't it? marvellous time didn't we? mm. it was so quiet! erm, until it rained and when it rains and then it drums on the roof then! ahhh mm. bloody hell, i mean you especially in the night! it's all it's all trees. but the they're fine in the summer. but they're hellish cold in the winter! mm. yes yeah. erm but they are colder than a caravan! well , i mean they're only thin walls aren't mm. they? but cos ooh aye they're so long erm they always seem colder than a caravan although it didn't we've never been in the winter that was whe i wouldn't know! no, i mean when we went up it was it wasn't erm winter time it was late summer wasn't it, when we went up? it wasn't so warm. i love mm. a bit of cold! and i it felt damp. mm. and if you wake up in the morning and all the condensation it didn't! oh the windows were, but it never felt damp! it did to me the first time we stayed. just weren't used to it you see. well there wouldn't oh yeah. be any heating in the bedrooms, i don't suppose, would there be? just a no, it didn't have a radiator in the bedroom . the heaters are erm, in the kitchen or the lounge area i suppose. well it's nice to spend time in the in the warm weather though. mm. i think i would have bought something a bit more substantial at it, i mean, if you've that amount of money, they must have a fair amount of money no, they didn't, though, no. the money was tied up. well er, i know what you mean it was all tied up. and i understand that because i, i'd probably feel like that, i'd sooner invest in bricks and mortar even if were only a little end-terrace house yep! yep. than a caravan or a mobile home on a site. you see they, they've only got so long on this site with that van mm. and then they've either got to replace the van mm. pardon me ! but erm, on that site, he's pretty good the manager there. they've only got six years. no! tha , as long as you keep it oh yes! maintained mhm. mm. they'll let you leave it on longer. but they otherwise is it normally just a six year well i thought it normally. was ten? no, no! it's normally six years then you replace your vans on the sites. that's the way oh it's not six years! you'd tell us anything it doesn't seem very long does it? for six peter told us it was six you couldn't spend sixteen thousand and leave it there for six years! course you can! and wha you'd have to re it was longer than six, six years! it wasn't i think it was ten years! take no ah. notice of him! it was six years peter mentioned! you're not a reliable source no he didn't! of information brian sorry! get your facts he mentioned six years to me! rubbish! he mentioned six years! rubbish! he mentioned six years to me! rubbish! i'll tell you! i'll mention six years to you! you won't live another six years to find out! oh oh oh god ! kept up with the insurance policy! ahhh ! cooking down to you boy! might i go to the toilet mam no! no, no! take that microphone with you so we can hear what your doing! will you stop it? you haven't still got it on have you? no! hopeless with that on because of course, he's been wearing a pullover all the time and initially he had it clipped on the right hand side of his belts and of course , with that switch where is it? the red switch there being right on the end when you depress that the play switch goes down as well. but with him having on this side, because he's so blooming awkward he's been pressing the play switch and of course, so the tapes been turning round, haven't bothered to che , so you know, he was sort of saying well well play that tape and i'll write their names down of the people as they speak, just the first names, you know so there's loads of loads of blank spaces on these tapes ! you're best just putting it on a table margaret. and the rest of the time he's had this, sort of on, on the pullover here and of course it's so sensitive that it it picks up every rustle! i mean he was talking to norman over the fence the other day and it sounds like gunfire in in the microphone you know ! every now and again the voice comes in. i mean, it was a windy day as well and i don't think that helped because the wind was sort of blowing into the mike but er and when he took it to college there was this noise all the time, he must have had it clipped under here somewhere! i said, well you know it's gotta be i'll put the kettle on for you brian. it's gotta be outside the clothing ! but erm well it's, it's alright, i mean well er, i think probably, i mean i so , this lady came on friday and she's coming on friday of this week to collect it or collect the tapes mm. and she said you know, use as many as you can which which we have done and a lot of blank spaces on them ! you haven't got er er top of the pops on one of these? mm mm, no no, no. no? or radio two,tried but er but erm he's got sort of better. i mean, today we've been to well we went into henry and norman's and they were having a chat and it's better if you're just sitting down like this with a mike just you know oh yeah! not attached really because it is very sensitive ooh ooh yes! and i mean, unless yo , and they said don't clip it near your throat because it would i felt like clipping it round his throat ! it er it would interfere with the erm are you taping about that ? with the reproduction so you've gotta go you have! you're coming very close brian! she's trying to get rid of me, i'm sure she is! you're not are you chuck she doesn't mean it really! no, course she doesn't mind! anyway, how about a car boot sale on but sunday? ah ah ah! oh no! you're not to mention car boot sales! no. that really? no. did yo , have you been to any more since no! no. i've done three meals tonight now, you can do something! three? yeah. what three? tea teresa's supper lunch tomorrow. that's not meals! that's an i one on it's own. will you do without them then? then you'll soon find out if they're meals! i've got yucky butties tomorrow! is this a have you been told off? no! no. no, she's always shouting at me. ah! egg sandwiches tomorrow. i think it was the a very nice oh that's lo , beautiful! sandwich filled . could of had an egg one of mine. don't you like egg? i like egg sandwiches no. when the egg is warm! oh! oh how common! he doesn't get them when they're warm! no. unless i make them! cos they smell they s smell don't they? yeah. put them straight in and er get a bendy sandwich. yes. and then when you take them out tomorrow egg and cress used that to be thing. they're all ! stuck to your and you have to press them down anyway to make them all stick. yeah. what about a fried egg sandwich they're the ones! yeah! oh! ooh how common! a runny fried egg sandwich! oh oh oh ! snotty fried egg sandwich! oh brian! oh i, i hate it! i mean if eggs aren't cooked properly for me it's alright for sticking wallpaper down though! it is awful isn't it? oh dear! will you stop it! do you get the express? no, we don't! why? what the paper you mean? yeah. good grief love! oh well, it's a shame then you can't go! hey? oh well i want a we do make exceptions i want to go! what's wrong with the express! well you're not going! well it no, off the back. you're not! no, you could ask! listen this is a bloody good paper this! only if it's got a special offer in it! just look at the headline! yeah ! andrew and fergie split! no wonder who cares! they didn't put andrew has finished whilst they've taken the who cares! yeah. i do! good paper that. i like the crossword and the target. ha ha ha ha ha ha . i can do them before i go out. would you like a margaret would like a ? er no i don't think i'll have one. well you can't fancy a cointreau cos erm no, no it's, it's why? it's alright . ooh hang on! no, wait wait the cointreau gone? er margaret's driving so oh no, you can have a little tinsy winsy oh i'll have a little tinsy winsy then. can i have one phyl? i hope you've got that thing switched off! it's come to the end of the tape now anyway. right phyllis, would you like a little tinsy winsy one? yes , why not! i'm always having a tinsy winsy one. i thought you said it was in the express? this is the express magazine, sunday magazine. oh! oh, beg your pardon! go on! carry on sorry! as you were! right you said you liked there are. mr another tinsy winsy one! behave yourself ! antiques day antiques day at a the , this is the all the places it's at this sunday and it's er , in chester. and you oh! take something along there and they will value it free of charge providing you've got a copy of the express! oh! now i see your reasons! ner ner ner ner ner! we've got one ! that's yours. no, we're going! oh have you had ten pounds and ten p please. how's that? it's there somewhere! thank you. cards for everything now isn't it, hey? that's it, yes. cards and buttons! press the wrong button and you've had it! well that's it, yeah. after all, it used a be a tenner for i'd be no, i'd be no good! run to town ! i've no patience me. okay, love bye ! thank you. thursday's about the worst day isn't it? it i well i , i know you've gotta come tomorrow is great. friday but er ooh yes, friday's not! i was going to come friday but i don't know what, is it bad compared with the other days then? ooh i think, yes! monday, tuesday, wednesday is it? absolutely! yes. it seems to be a yeah. heavy day! never mind! never mind! what are you doing today then er eric? polish those two. ooh they're polishing, yes. i sta , i stained them in a hurry on er last friday night so i, i i hope i haven't missed any. cos i wanted them to re settle for a week before starting on them. yes can be a mistake hurrying the job can't it? yeah yes, that's what erm we've all done it. early? good morning ray? morning mary how are you? yes, alright. is that you in the flash car pushing my little one out of the way? car park. oh it's awful isn't it, on a thursday? it's terrible! it is. ee, you , actually i left my boot open and there were five cars behind me, so he said well if we get our spaces nicked . that's right. i still got a free one. isn't there a mail box here in the college? i don't think so. it's on the way oh! should be one! would of thought well, are those your chairs? yes, ah, these are they? ten minutes to go. it's too high get it back on the chair! it'll be too high. yes. oh i see, yes yes yes. well it's so many things! it's higher than the one i had because erm the base is obviously i just had the springs going across didn't i? yeah i, i sa i've erm cos i'm gonna reduce the mm. base, you know the spring unit what you were talking about. that's right. if you can get them up yeah that was high, yeah. so i can so you done it with springs, that's right yes yeah. just you know is it just cos it's you're a lady anyhow, i mean she co i mean a probably not big enough for a man. i wouldn't say i wouldn't say anything gwyneth, to me i , i'd be quite happy! but then joan is speaking on how it should look. what she said was the head was oh i see, too high? yes. well it wouldn't be for you would it? well not really. it depends on doesn't it? those ercoles that we got, those wing they're too they're too low for me. i think they are surprising, yeah. inches. no, they're not made for a tall man er, you know my no. wife's quite and your happy but my head's like this and i i bit disappointed really well that's the trouble! i thought that they were the wings were gonna come up you know, the, the old type that kept the draught off. which you wouldn't have draughts, you have double glazing! well that's the thing you see but er if you have double glazing. oh dear! now i've no, but erm well i that's what i anticipated, but that, yes that's lovely ! be quite happy she said with that. she said we didn't but she's on her own. i'm not yeah. but she's nice isn't she? she'll be al , yes, that's right, yeah, yeah. you see these are one size anyhow, cos the wings, are they? when it comes in it's hand made which yes, i see and he made it, you see i mean i it cost over twenty years ago told me i think those were too small. small, yes, they should of been a bit well, i mean she knows that deeper really, so that the knows that well i'm not i mean, why should i? it's different. nice! yeah. not only that erm i mean you could i think she'll be very happy. yeah, i think so. yes. i think, you know in certain cases you've gotta say to joe, well you mean that's what the lady wants now you know those ercoles i did? well she convinced me to start off with foam, you know webbing on the foam and i said well yes. she said it's a lot cheaper and easier, so i hadn't got the springs at that time no. you re , you really but then er somebody said don't do that you've gotta think what the value that's right. of how it's definitely! supposed to me. see, i did it so once in the end i persevered when i first came when i first came, that was the one thing that i was like that was the fact that that i might be pushed that way whereas i only mm. really nice he's thinking that i mean that, he couldn't never lift the seat up. oh it's gorgeous! that's why i love the sprung hair and the horse hair ideally, you know i love it! i mean, do you know now that'd be better for me better for you but then i as i say, you don't cater for every height on the whe chair do you? when i went to noreen's if i make that to be used with a cushion or without mm. she can always put the cushion over the yes. and then take it off the chair . well it , ah well, of course the other thing you'd have to do to do that is put a top oh i'll do that in there. oh that's what you're doing is it? i've got enough material. oh well! i've got enough material. so you're gonna give this a top stuffing? yes. no, i'm gonna give that a top cover for this . yeah. that's what i want. i see, just one, i see yeah. that's right. so all you want is a bit of erm on the side you know, piece of wadding wadding. i've got the both types. well that's great! i've got the narrow and i've got the thick. that's great! so she can please herself can't mm. she? and you can make i think the that loose. yeah, and then good! she, if she wants a cushion she can put it on, and you're happy! joan's happy! that's right. everyone's . that's a good idea that! that's, that's got one. you've got in effect, a dual purpose mm. chair haven't you? i if i set it up there it's too low is it, for you? well i see yes. the height from there oh yes, i see, yeah. isn't it? mm, yes. it's that comfortable it's actually going off to sleep here! you'd better get some work done you know . i had to get her out of bed this morning! he was erm very lugubrious moustache, and he looked oh! oh that was the character he played, you see. that's how he . yeah, but he was er, opening this thing, this particular day in buckley so big name, you know ma , most of them they watch it all the time you see. for the rats. ooh! excuse me, you've ha , you've tripped your and the you know, the all lad, he said, no it's not worth it for me, so i'll be going before you draw it. that is true! right, right he had never . that is true! you give me your , that i'll shall give you this ring so i went is that right? well i i was so shocked! my god, all that money! and he's well he no. nothing . no, you know,the honestly when you i mean most people here just said yeah, yeah not having it! it's they go. not interested with the in the you have to give ten percent. another chap, he's a big name in a church in buckley he was a an old neighbour of ours and i never liked cos he used to himself with a bowler hat on they are only back twenty years, you know, bowler hats! i got in you know, on this guy he's oh no, no, he said he he'd got one at home, he said i can't afford blooming two! oh! and i'd got i'd bought one of his! and i thought oh! well that's . i pinched they are bad! i said, well even when you you know, i do the finishes yes. yeah. he come and collects them then but, but normally and and people mm. but i oh yes! mean well why doesn't he i mean i don't like peruvian no no. i mean, i told well i mean, he probably ate a horse or anything stopping this slaughtering shipping them over to the france or anything any more he's burnt their blinking well now it's the it's disgusting. time of year i mean he you just . oh i usually give but i do get a bit tired of it sometimes! but now when they get hold of me twice in the one day you say hang on i've just given to you the bus ! that's right, when you want to get your bus home they say, all alright! are you having a a reverse effect? it's the lady what's your name again? teresa. i've only been here three years now! yes, i'm okay. no, i don't yo , remember ah. this with our like, first year last year erm, er she lives somewhere near paula. oh! but she was a funny girl! but erm very, very quiet, you know? she was good on this! but, she dropped out, but anyway i sa she'll say oh you're whistling aren't you, and singing? i said, oh i lo i love it, i lo , i said i know it sounds awful thought no more and then shirley said to me when she'd gone she said, she came up to me one day she said i wish to god he'd stop that bloody noise,this time ! so i told my wife, she said i told you, she said, you drive me mad! did she? do you drive her mad too? oh well! no, i like to hear a bit of music to go along. that's all. oh yeah. it doesn't sound like music to anyone else ! no wonder she thinks ! i'm sorry about that she said ! she's got no chance has she? she no, especially . you were stationary? i wasn't i didn't see the herfs, dum er, the hoofs not your car? oh no! oh i thought somebody no said it was you! i heard er er der at er erm parked in the other car park i heard the hoofs go bang! in the but he was sitting in the car was he and and she came and back into him? but she said he wasn't there when she started to reverse. and that the golden rule is if you're reversing you must look behind you! yeah, but she said she did and he wasn't there. yeah, but a it's too bad ee,yo yo i don't know i think the you when you learnt to drive when you came to reversing you're told you must look yeah. out of that rear window all the time not using your rear view mirrors look once as well. that's what a lot of people do,the , they look once and then turn forward and bang! it's fatal! cos anyone can whizz in behind you! and she's got no chance if she told the truth! of course, the other thing, if she says oh well i er didn't know this feller was moving and er yeah they're never going to thump him,. cheeky devil! my god i wouldn't have the gall to argue would you? you'd say i'm i'm sorry there. oh! he said well what have, what am i gonna get him poor feller! ted is it? told her, ted yeah , yeah. he just said, i stood, get in the car then as yes. he came to the corner stop and she reversed straight into him! and she's arguing? she's arguing! er in the butchering department. so how you going, alright ted? oh fine! apart from the drama? apart from the drama! yeah, chris is er what's his name? what's the forgotten his name now! is it er, i don't know what his his it isn't ted is it? no! i don't know his name, this is it's gone now the dentist, yes. but it is a it's a name but i don't know what his first name is. how are you fiona, alright? okay thanks ray. so is it badly smashed this car or is it just the bumper? well it's not, i want the bonnet sprayed she's got no chance! no! none at all! a a just i just want it bonnet, i want it to go in, bonnet spray job and have a look at her face! instead of her saying oh and what have i done, i'm sorry! and er she says,sh she said you came round the corner too quick, you weren't there when i looked in the mirror! so she says right what's your name? so i said lesley, she says to me are you in agreement with her? i says all the way back. and he, he and he was stationary was he? he just said he was sitting there waiting to ma well if he she's got no chance! waiting for her to see what's coming! he was stopped! she wasn't looking! she said, but, well you were going up to, around that oh yeah! corner too fast! bet she never looked! said no way! she didn't look! should never reverse unless you're looking out that back window! well she said she did and he wasn't there. couldn't have done! oh he was! but but but he was there! what did you do just carried on? i put the brake on and locked them, i shouldn't of done! so the bumper's torn off the back yeah. the front wheel i , she'd gone sort of along it an , and yeah. hit the head and, and my front wheel it's always the front bumper! yeah. and the tyre was going down then she said i didn't do that ! i said, what! i didn't get you! only hit the bumper, i thought well what's happened, i said? look at the mark on the wheel! oh i, i didn't think i'd done that! now, she went off then, she heard my address, and my you know er for insurance and that. cheerio! i'm stuck in the road! i had to change the tyre, it's, you know i see it's the my god, i've heard some good-uns in me but people are like that you know! they can wriggle out of something, they yes you know, they will! i did the er there was a an ambulance came down the road in front of a bus you see, and a chap which was on the cor , side the road and he he went like this so i stopped and the ambulance came round and turned into this building site and i and while we were sitting there bang! hey! oh no! what happened? i jumped out the car young girl had a car that erm back of my car and dented the boot a bit and er her car was shambles! folded up. well was it dark or something? didn't she mm? was it dark? no, it was perfectly broad daylight and lunchtime . and a , as she went back i sa oh dear! you know? thirsty yes? lots, lots, lots of ! what d'you think,? mhm. lovely colour, but i like it. nice and old fashioned, ha? mm. , she won't move away from what, she's in a an ordinary ordinary house, yeah. but it's lovely inside cos he had it all done out for her but she just won't move! i can understand it, it's her roots isn't it? suppose he goes you know? back all the time to see his mum oh does he? yeah, yeah! yeah yeah they er and harry secombe lived down the road from me and he was in cheam, and he was erm that's right, he did! he was there years and years, and then suddenly surrey, isn't it? about three years ago he uprooted and went to guildford. he lived right on the main road he was very vulnerable! but he had a lovely house! ha! yeah! and john's been in there, he's done work for harry secombe in his house. has he really? yeah. oh! hot chocolate,cho erm cliff richard erm who's the other one? there's the king singers. done a farm house for one of the king singers in er oxford. yeah! how did he harry secombe , i think is in the we get the sunday observer you know, they have the yeah. magazine, there's a mm. a room of my own i think it was, it mm. shows you the houses of, you know that's right, yeah. it's usually writers or, in this case but the one he had at cheam was a lovely house! yeah. it was right on the main road and he was there years and years and years mm. and years! but they're and the as long as i can remember. the theatres and in no! no, no! well if he lived in it was right in the in the road wales , that'd be too far wouldn't it, to travel oh yeah! you see? so he so er, well,guil erm he wanted to er, go to guildford i presume because that's his vicinity for doing all his work you see? should be able to commute and yes that. that's right. but erm lovely house he had but you're in cheam! you're, you're from elephant and castle aren't you? john is from bermondsey. where's ? john is from bermondsey. i was born in in er,stockford , brixton. brixton? yeah. oh, you're right down the road from margaret! yeah. with croydon and erm with john and john major john major. oh john major is there! erm well maggie, she she oh brixton, we i mean she's only moved to erm chelsea now, isn't it er she? er,ye , no she was at erm it's on a new estate oh dear! wasn't she? er, and er they, they wanted to get rid of her, they didn't want her there! so she got, they got rid of her! oh dear! i've lived there, herne hill it was, near herne hill. mm. but i erm i was born in west norwood,nes ,wo west norwood but where john major took you to last night on his tour well i didn't see it anyway so you see i, i lived in er er which is a turning off . oh! lived there till i was about fourteen. brixton, it was lovely then! yeah. ooh it's slum but after the war now! oh it's terrible! well you know thornton heath? it's where ma yes. well margaret's brother still lives there. well all around there, streatham all round there. yeah. yeah , streatham, thornton heath. yeah. erm i mean, it's a nightmare now, the traffic! it's the not the traffic, it's the bloody blacks! lot of coloured people yeah. there, yes. yeah. it it's just a league of nations there and every shop is black people in brixton, but it were a lov , they used to able to get on a a two, three, a fifty nine, or a hundred and fifty three to oxford circus on the bus you was there in twenty minutes! cos i used to ooh yes! take all the gowns up to er marston's , selfridges all the gowns that i used to make that we used to make. if it hadn't of been for the war i'd have been a model! i mean, don't look at me now! but i would of been a model. just about to say you've got the figure. when i was training. look, i haven't now love! no, only for except, ex-directory! ex excel not if only the but ah! war when the yeah. war started in nineteen thirty nine it was declared on my birthday third of september. naturally! i started it all! and er the first bombs that came over britain they must be erm our company got it! first, you know mm. just bombed to the ground! oh yes! ooh! and i just couldn't so, and anyway, so i joined up. yes. so that was my life, i only had about two years in yeah. civvy street! went to college for dressmaking, but there we are! life! i used to live in brixton but then it was so sentimental last night because john major he took us all round there because that's where he comes from you see i see. a erm that was his erm constituency. and erm he lived erm, a few doors away from us but, well then i didn't know that until no. last night! i see. ah same i didn't know! street! only no, a few do a few streets a few streets away. sorry! a few streets away. oh i see, yeah! yeah, yeah. in oh! road, he lived in road which was off lane and erm what was the other one? we lived in . erm they had a lovely big old mrs bridges houses my grandma victorian had the house. houses , yes. and there was a placement first floor, second floor, and where they used to be starting to live beautiful house! mm, oh yes! i mean, i didn't think so at the time but when i think of it you know, and later when i came back after the war we , oh my god! she died my grandfather died and blacks got it just sold up! mm. i broke the ,orh yeah, yes, yeah. it was a lovely house! well there you are! but it was lovely! everyone wants to get away now don't they? i mean margaret couldn't go back it's er i would what? it's too the hey? hurly-burly there, it's just a terrible place! where did your mum li , come from? er, ooh yes, that's right your mum, i take it we're talking about? croydon. croydon. in east, east croydon. murder! it's not so much that , it's getting through! used to take a time just to get home at night! i know! wandsworth oh! just down from maulden! it's murder! we we because you went in and there's the speed! the morning well, where john lives like, i forget the name of the road now, you just pass thornton heath you know turn yeah left there it's streatham all that way. and this this long road goes er must be two miles, more than that! tooting beck? no, no, it's it's thornton heath, that's his address on the, just yeah, but well, i see yeah this road er, a few shops and then you turn left at john's road but er, and he there's two private houses, two bungalows that were built twenty yeah. years ago in, in yeah. amongst all these old yeah. ones you see. yeah. but when you come to turn into his drive there's the ca ,you know the cars behind you doing sixty odd ! put the brakes i know! on to warn them and then oh! zoom! oh i know, terrible! and then when you wanna get out of his drive yeah. you've gotta have someone there to to back you yeah. out because get your nose out otherwise they'll have it straight away! and he said john said, oh yo , you can hear the bumps here all the time and the yeah. the buses and that,the these cars are parked on the pavement yeah but what bang! you, i bet you if your john if if if he said that it's mostly blacks! they all live there! well he he is he, he is quite it's a black community. prejudice, john and er the the yeah so am i! there are a lot of erm so am i! there's one or two. but i always say well i can't stand them! there's plenty of bad whites! aren't there? oh there is there is you know i in fact but the times i've been done down in my life it's been mainly by the white people! yeah, well john's been done down by the black people! endless oh no, john's pakistanis, he can't bear them! he's had a a couple of bad experiences of two! two! and so i suppose it puts you off, but there you are. took all our profit they did, the bastards! yes. god forgive me for swearing! i like him oh! he used to be in it was power to the people i he's unbelievable! is that yes the one? that's right. and and then the power then he was and er in that serial about last year. he done me and my yes. about liverpool. erm that's him isn't it? oh er b h er, b g h! that's his play he's in now is it? g b h, grievous bodily harm. oh yes, yes i i read the, yeah now he's in me and my girl now with the er, with his wife, i was i didn't think he was married to her. she's with the girl who's in that series but it's like the american one with she's got a male housekeeper and she it's duri , it's ju it's only a comedy in the afternoon. oh, i wouldn't of seen that, i don't know! or evening, early evening i don't i don't english actress is she or yeah, yeah, blonde. oh i don't know her. lovely she is! perhaps i know the face but oh you will you know. if you see the series, remember yes. the series honor blackman was in it. it's only just gone off. oh that, oh i know yes! and she had it's gone. this lady er, in the house, it's american, is that the one? no? with honour blackman. honour blackman was the mother a grandmother i saw one one episode i think it was her daughter had a saw one. and then there was erm the feller who was the housekeeper. yes. i think i saw a bit of one. and it, well it was her that he was married to but i he was he couldn't get over it, it was such a shock to him! mm. you know, it was really you could see i like him. he was so surprised! he'd wha come a long way that man! oh yeah! yes, he's a cos it was a classical actor isn't he,? oh he is! well they're busy doing king lear and they went on stage. that's right, yes. that's right! we've got the tape of him he couldn't believe it ! in king lear. yes. with laurence olivier. couldn't believe it! mm. oh yeah! and this feller who's well if they've got that grounding was they can diversify. yeah, he's very they got that he very versatile that man. i mean, i saw him when he first started as a schoolboy in erm oh a series with erm the army series what's it called? erm oh, that's right yes! yes, you're right oh dear! he was in that, yeah! yes he was. curly, a slight curly headed feller used to be in erm a series at the tony selby. that's right! then he said to get get some in. he said i've, that's right! get some in. then he said i fink the raf. i fink so he said how many f's in fink so he's got his nose to him like that and he says two so robert lindsay says to him free! did you see the other one that was interviewed on terry wogan? no i didn't see is it ni is it er, lyndhurst is it? oh yeah! yes! first time i've ever heard him yes. very quiet. now john i said to very quiet. john, he was in prince and pauper in his young days. and of course he really sounds so well spoken. yeah. oh, he's, he's lovely! and erm he was in prince and pauper and john could remember him, he was the was he? prince in prince and the pauper, as a schoolboy! what the film you mean? no, no, on the television! ah! i never saw yeah he was. that prince and the pauper, oh god donkey's years he wouldn't have said he was a child then, did he? i do , i can't ever remember it. he, he mus be thir all i can remember butterflies. he's over thirty now. oh yeah. yes. he's in butterflies. no, it's long before that. and he was like that wasn't he? yes. yeah. yeah. but, he's a sa , he's a lovely person! but he isn't thick he's great! he likes his family you know, he's a yeah , i think he's lovely! won't have anything to do with the the press, you know he no. seems to keep them well away, yeah house. yeah, that's right. i don't blame him! wonderful trees, there's one that that used to be something called yeah. a tobby and they do this body camping, they have to do it early in the morning or late at night when it's cool and it produces this liquid which verbella it's already fermenting and at this oh yeah. rate you have to add at first, you can drink it while it's fermenting, it's quite a refreshing drink a bit tart to my taste but when it ferments out it becomes er a liquor called arak which is their version of . oh i've heard of that. where do you say, sri lanka? oh dear! i've been there. so have i. just last week. this is this ah week were you? yes. my well daughter lives there. oh that's nice! i used to go through once a month. did you really? it's not a laxative is it pat? it's like a piece of wood from sri lanka. thank you very much pat. so it should be . actually this week this week i sent a a telegram from the gall place hotel to gwyneth on our wedding anniversary. what, you were there this week? no, this week many years ago. oh really? yes my daughter went, went to gall place hotel swimming pool a lot. yes. we went to erm we went . it's very nice sitting on the ver veranda looking out to sea. has it all gone? thank you pat. under the palm trees, you know. i know we've been to er colombo, near the we went there camping. did you? yes. it's a beautiful place! but not everyone you know wants of the old times. yeah. i used to land at migombo property er matmalamo originally and then they changed it over and we used to land at migombo but it was a funny spread! it was er cut out of palm trees and it got palm trees on hundred feet high,both sides of the runway. good grief! one mistake and er yeah, well that's and you used to get some coconuts in the cockpit! you could get some pretty he hefty winds down there you know, the old monsoon used to blow oh yes. i've had some . yes that tropical weather you see. erm he would of made a good singer, yes. of course, he used to well it makes a nice change get in these didn't he? in amongst all that rubbish! ooh yes! oh gosh, absolutely, yeah! i used to love his films, i did! but erm he wa , he was not an opera singer you know, he couldn't erm no, but if i'd said that couldn't sustain a role for two or three hours. oh yes! yes. he was only thirty thirty what? thirty six when he died you know! was he? oh oh yeah. like that . oh i was reading about the twenty three stone! just killed himself with over indulgence you know, in drink an an er eating. and meals a shame isn't it? most probably if he hadn't gone to hollywood that would never have happened. well it was er it was transparent in the water you could see the fish in the water and and er, you could see the turtles and the and the otters. otters and, and beautiful! everything. ah dear! but, she was as nervous as a kitten because we were, we were in a one of these canadian type er oh the dugout, sort of canoe, yes, the curved and type canoe,india , indian canoe type thing you see and the blo but he was a an old mariner, he was seventy seven and he volunteered to take us on the river. and he said that. he said, he was, very nice chap! he was like bing crosby you know oh blue eyes! to hear and look at him. oh! and he said erm now i don't want to alarm you he said but er, have you any been on a canoe before and er i said no ! and er i'll cross my fingers! yeah. and he said er no, he said er i hope you can swim er, he said because they're rather unstable and er and he said, now erm if we er bump into anything like erm a he he hesitated in his speech and he said like a log or a er er or alligator he said freeze! freeze! don't move! he said i'll make the decisions! and still i've made it through! and she's sitting there petrified! and do you know, you've heard it don't frighten the alligators! yeah yeah. don't fri you know when you sit on your bottom in a canoe and that, you've not probably been in a canoe i have actually been in a but you can see all movement oh i know it's a funny thing! and and but, you know like they say you you know at the slightest wobble if, you feel as though it's gonna go sideways or something! yeah, yeah. but he said i , don't ju freeze because he said, otherwise we'll all be the bath! and the, for the first half with the, with alligators ! for the first half hour i sat didn't dare put my bit difficult on. to take photographs, i got my movie cam , my video camera you see and i i didn't oh yeah. dare move! and i was we were like this. i was just doing like this you see, i didn't dare swing round. just a scratch . what for fo for what? it it's for oh sa that's safe way of . that's so the er wha beyond the john er oh i see ! he keeps filming us! you get a surprise. where's it gone ? it's very good he the video's just as safe as if children that needs character what do you think? well i don't know whether you can sort of, tape in advance can you? we, we can't, no i don't understand it! i don't mess with the thing. i just let no. them do it. son told us how to do it once, so he got the book out and he said, oh, then he gave up in the end! because er we tried it and we got the wrong ruddy film! ya. you know yo , it's all these buttons isn't it, you've gotta you've really got to be into it. you know you know my three year old grandson he knows how to do it oh i know! his nana ! yeah. try and look nana, that one and that experts one. aren't they kids, though! brought up quick you see. i don't envy them though, i don't oh no i don't. i'm old fashioned and that's it! i don't know. no. too old to change aren't we ? but i i must say i like it is a marvellous thing to be able to do that! oh yeah. just sit down and watch a ruddy tape you know and yeah. pre , put it in and mm. i mean to say er used to see people years ago and they got these cine cameras and and all, we could never have one of those you know and a record of the kids when they were young. yeah. and i mean well look at me stupid you only got a few minutes didn't you? this stupid thing is is going and taping rugby matches all the time ! oh yes! but, well of course he would! you kno that's what he wants to see. i know. yes, but he doesn't stop and think you know, what else can we do?to get this tape in. that's it. kids! what can you do? she has been in the business for about a year yeah. dressmaking mainly, but you know, anything at all, yeah, she's been at it that long! but, but people when people when they come to your house and want things done they're tight you know! oh yeah, they're not terrible! yeah. they say it won't take you long! a a skirt, how much is a skirt? well five pounds an well i only ee, you know mm. i could do it myself. yep. and i sa and i said well why why don't you? yeah. she's given up now, she just does it for friends now the you mm. know, that, who pay but obviously yes. they're getting it done cheaply. but some people are grateful. well beryl has a cousin who's er tremendous degree of spasticity in the legs even worse than god bless her! poor er brian you know yeah. she can only go round with two sticks and she gets er while beryl's here in house but erm the brave little kid she er did a degree in erm art and costume design, you know, dress design with a erm and she's set up a good business at home. and well sh she's built up a goo er steady little clientele. clientele , yeah. she does a lot of er work erm but she's doing work there's a place in chester,harrison you know,godford lane oh yes, i've yes. yes. i know, yeah, yeah oh my wife knows erm it quite well anyway. well they they get her to do or even erm they got one cutting girl who came in er got a photograph from vogue erm michael caine's daughter oh! and her wedding dress and she wanted a dress like that. oh yes! sent they send it to elizabeth. er so as it happened this girl had got the material erm a wild silk cream and er elizabeth made up this dress for her of course er michael caine's daughter i is quite a busty girl, you know oh i see, yeah. and this bride wasn't so it didn't qui , look quite the same, you know! had to make so a few drastic alterations! so when it was made she decided she didn't like it! ooh! erm so elizabeth got on to aristocrats so what, what happened? oh do don't worry! don't worry at all we've contracted with you to do this dress oh, that's right. we'll just take it into stock. yeah. yeah. no problem whatsoever! erm but she's got er girls this one is, lady's six foot three! and she found it terribly difficult to get dresses! absolutely! erm oh her husband now is absolutely delighted with all she does! she's goes along to some illustration out of book and er she does design or something. something she's seen in a magazine or oh i see, yeah. oh she she can design as well? no. choose the design ah that's on a dress. that is very talented, yes! and and she's got a couple of lady solicitors who come to her! yes, i think, and also it depends on the area that you live, do you think john? i don't know. oh she's you know perhaps you're in erm the older part of whitby and , just a little semi erm mm. you know, she, she lived in . i think if she went in to live in the back woods, you know, way beyond yeah. sort of er yeah. as i say, you get good people that are quite willing to pay, but others who mm. are they do oh i know! they want it done cheaply because you're working at home! yeah, they think you're a . the attitude , which is wrong yeah. really! you know i sa , told margaret, i said look don't er i'm very sorry but we can't do it! i've known people also raise bedding plants at home erm yeah. but er it's just the same, the they yes. go to a nursery and pay six or seven times as much and they want it for nothing or or next to nothing! yeah, i know. they don't want it half price they don't realise! they want it for a you still got the fifth! same overheads heating. heating costs and , yes. compost and all of that. and the work is tremendous yeah. doing that sort of thing, i'd, something i would never take but there you are that's people for you! what? like this game to some extent isn't it? the furniture they want it somebody'll want it done for no i've broken many the dowel or tenon or something like that! oh! in just erm watering? well, i mean, say it's like that where you just polishing with a cloth or something yeah. but he has a an actual syringe er, mortaring tenon you know. ya. say that was a tenon there the underneath part of the chair you're not gonna see drills a hole in there mm. and then jegs and after a few five minutes yeah. doesn't get you know, it breaks down the glue inside. and that hasn't broke. no, no, you've been lucky there but yeah. it's a good tip that you know, isn't it? i've never heard of it before. michael? michael the erm the up , the furniture restorer that's erm he's coming here. he's not here. three hours every tuesdays for the second years oh yeah. and giving us tuition on real antique furniture, he doesn't do anything in his shop erm after eighteen forty or it's all more or less georgian, very georgian actually. and whereabouts is he? in er heswell i, i've never been there, he's got a workshop in heswell what and you go on a you go on a course there? no he co , he comes here. oh does he? when is he that? wants he comes here on tuesday? on on a tuesday, he wants to go and teach you see, i think he's got arthritis in his one leg. is he er the man with a beard? yes. mike, he's called? michael . . he's written a book. we've all got the book. oh yes! yes. he's a lovely chap ahhh honestly! very, very interesting! yeah. and and yo i you do it his course here on erm well he he sort of came and asked us, you know do you mind yeah. he he's gotta do this thirty hours i think it is to i see! to get this teaching? other exam. yeah. as i say, they he qualifies you see. yeah. er so it's mainly erm what i've just been telling you about cleaning all mm. screws, how to identify furniture and mainly ol and his methods are totally different to what we've learnt here, especially with polishing mm, mm and that. mm. uses hardly any polish it's nearly all waxing though. is it? oh! stripping and everything's a different technique. oh very good! but he and that's part of your three days is it? you do three don't you? yeah, ah that's right, yeah. well er, the tuesday is supposed to be furniture restoration, that's what it's been and yo , that's but then he started doi you know, a few weeks ago it wa , well it'll be the fourth week i should think! mm. and fourth. who do you do the er for? furniture restoration. well that's the the three day, you know, george i he's george, bill and no, bill doesn't go in! no, he doesn't ? this is just woodwork. oh i see. ah well we do a bit of copying. now that's, is is that in this class here? in this room? the first years come in here for upholstery. mm. we go in there to the woodwork and that's on tuesday mornings? tuesdays. yeah, yeah oh i see! it's a fiver each that is. some i wouldn't mind doing that. well, i i liked it, you know it's it's so interesting and er he is very good! trouble is, some of them have made the mistake i think, of saying well it's not good for us because we don't do really old furniture you know. nobody's gonna come to us for the lease of erm william the fourth or anything like this! no. or william and mary and say er can you do, they're gonna go to an expert like him. but then if they got tips you never know, you might have to do a top of an yeah. old, really old yeah. table. and not just go on and strip the yeah. which yeah. he's still really tha that's a yeah, you ca of him that is. no. don't, never use that stuff! makes his own wax! does he? showing us how to yeah. we're gonna do some between us. so if he's got to he's ga got to re re-buy something then he just clips it down with sandpaper does he? oh no! no, just cli , and yesterday he'd got this marvellous cleaner he uses. just wipes it. it just cleans. cleaner and then er wire wool at at the last mm. resort mm. but oh he he, he does do stripping obviously but the yeah. the stuff he uses is ve isn't as caustic as the stuff we no. use. no. it just takes the surface off. yeah. yeah. and then th , the object in the, is to build up a pattern yeah. there you see, so it still looks old. and he yeah. does a lot of patching, somebody's got a cigarette hole you, you've gotta match that up. yeah. very interesting! yeah. but it would pricey if i wanted to come you see, i'd have to pay again! oh well , yes, yeah, oh well i wouldn't be coming. i'd have , i'd have to pay for it. i have to that's right. pay for everything i do, you know. it's part of my second year, so yeah i know. yeah. so i'll be in the same boat as you next year. will you? well yeah, i've had a come for one day, pay for a day and hope i can sneak in on the two day. that's what ya. you can do. mm. yeah well we could i mean, joan said well ma , you know make the numbers up, once you're here come in on the second. well we can still be away for about four lessons at four thirty so er well that makes up and he'd been away for three months so that you know i mean well you see eric was offered two months. little eric, the one that's always yeah. in there. so the let him come in the day, two days he was off two months, christmas time, how is he? with his bad back. tha , well he went to spain for a month to sort of recuperate. yes. and and come in on the, he came on the tuesday and he's been three days a couple of weeks so eric will be pleased at that. between friends i think i haven't got a bad back, she had me wings on you would wouldn't you? ooh yes! yes. the wings go on last don't last they? yeah. yeah, yeah. ray, can i ask you ? sorry pat, what? have you got glue from the no. yes. kept this space there? specially for you pat. oh that's very sweet! with you in mind. well erm mary's here so she can budge up a bit. yes. a gem you are! there's usually another guy here today so he hasn't showed up, so there you are so we got bags of room. from what i've heard she'd got no chance that lady! well yes. as long as you're alright. bit shocked really i suppose. yes, well it is! yo you sort of er if you ran into someone you know, you do something silly it's it's it's it's automatic to say oh i'm sorry we will you know how much yeah. ? yeah. but today, especially these youngsters the attitude is i'm yeah. not saying anything! course it is, you say anything now it's sticking out a mile, but the time home that make up another ruddy story to give yeah. to their insurance i mean oh yeah. it's awful. but oh she blamed me, she said i was coming round the corner at high speed! and i, we weren't anywhere near the corner! we were this end sorry, we were this end, you know . yo you were stationery were you? i was stationery. she got no chance! you ran into a , i mean if she's reversing she reversed she's not looking, she couldn't of been looking! she's she's looked then she's taken her eyes off the back. yeah. must of! well, she probably didn't look at all! could be. i mean i i i said, i hooted her as well. mm. and er that's fatal! but i i was always taught, probably like yourself that you must look through that, turn round and look through that rear yes. mirror. cos if you take your eye off for a second, bang somebody's there! oh yes. so i don't think she's got much hope now you know. have you got witnesses anyway? yeah . oh! i hope sa er , see of course it's all question of getting it sorted out as quickly as you can. there's the insurances and the tale that she tells them but tha , i think they'll have that weighed up you know. ha! well i hope so. cos i had an awful experience about ooh, four years ago, i had this old moggy morris minor coming along very slowly north of hull it was and this chap and his about finished work you know, so i going past this cri , there's a cricket match going on and he was looking like, i could see and his girlfriend! and the car just went like this into the middle of the road slowly towards me i swerved onto the grass yeah. verge and he caught my back bumper an an ripped it off you see! got out the car, said good god lad what were you doing? and he never said anything and he said something like, i'm not saying anything. i said you ran into me, look at the position of the cars! ooh no, he said we'll swop insurances that's all he'd say! it was his dad's car. yeah. his dad was on holiday. anyway, i, i should of got the police there and then and had yeah. him breathalysed although it wasn't yeah. drink or anything but yeah. police said to me afterwards you should of we can't fight your claim you yeah. should of had him there and then and measured up the road a bit yeah. we could see how yeah. you're too late to have ended up knock for knock. it's as though yeah. it were partially my blame you know. they paid half of erm yeah. totally his fault you know! but these youngsters today they could kill yeah. someone they wouldn't er yep. they wouldn't be compassionate about it you know. well i proved i was stationery this morning there's no way she's right. oh no, i think you got a pretty good case there. it's nasty though isn't it? it leaves a nasty taste in your mouth. where are you, north wales, chester? yeah. i thought, ooh by that yeah. you know. anyway, one lady came came to the house whilst i was here and she said oh it's not quite what i want. last week getting married. just a . put a deposit down will you, oh can't yeah. pick it up till the weekend. yeah. but i'd come down to er, one two five you see in the local paper. oh! so anyway, it's gone. as i say, it didn't cost yeah. me much. didn't cost me no. anything to to buy that one oh well. so er but it's stuck there for er weeks on end, you know we've been finished it yeah. bit of a . and the ? oh yeah,tha , that was lorraine you know lorraine that was here. yeah, but then i suppose but then she's you know, otherwise hers . where does sh where's her shop? in wallasey oh, in wallasey again? ah. i see, yeah. oh well i could go there and have a look, anyway one day yeah. because is she the only one there is she or she might be interested i don't yeah. i don't know whether the other girls go round with her but erm what's the other girls name that was here? wah i didn't know that very well. i knew oh! lorraine because i, you know she ru she, she does her own work she starts being oh yes, there was another girl, yeah. yes. a friend of my daughter's went in the other week and bought a little erm table off her erm and, you know, it's quite , i mean it's all, that's it. wanted some new furniture. trouble is she only wants to buy it off you cheaply you see, for if you can, it's how she does it, she might erm sometimes they sell things for you don't they? and charge you for it. that's what i was gonna say, i she liked that new erm in there. i know yeah. she did do that, what they get for it erm usually they're pushed for space as well, you see, that could yeah. be the other thing, you know. it's been there er, for sale for a few months and sold it by february at a that's right. loss. to save on . she had the monday market didn't she?like all things, you know, though people do tend to go in and look and then say ooh yes, very nice! yeah. we'll think about it and say ooh oh you have this don't you? especially at lunch with the they come up and spend ooh yes. little bit on , they're still buying. ooh yes! because they're going they go by the band road down south. and sell it much dearer there obviously so er you know they, they still buy it no, okay i can charge where in this economic situation and we think . oh no, no! no i no, there is erm we bought , we bought stuff ourselves you know, to people and we've spent on it, so yeah. it's my last weekend but it was such a scramble! i was, wanting to get home i, i couldn't mm. be bothered but erm yeah. well you know the erm handbridge ? yes. yes well you yes. but i think there's only one shop there, the pearl antiques just over the bridge on the right hand side over the bri , oh i know yes! a anyway that they call vineholts vineholts is a cake shop right opposite there. oh yes , that's right yes. well i hadn't been there for ages! have you got a a row of shops on your left by the pub yes, and then on the right then er er a park on your right and right. then a couple of the shops, and she's about on the corner this oh, well i haven't been that way yet. just a couple of ladies erm well it's one lady, i think er the lady just helps her. we've been in a couple of times and i said that i wanted a chaise you see ooh i got this erm one for victorian one it's very nice, and lovely warm you know, the legs anyway it was one one thousand three hundred you see, so i thought, oh i said well i didn't wanna i beg your pardon? well that's what you can spend now for a good one. but this is ready to take home but i said oh, can i have it out? she said, yes. that's finished is it then? oh yes, yes! had to be. oh, yes, yes, yes! only one seat then? oh yes yeah. i said to her have you got one that's in bits? but er for three hundred, you know er but er er but the back was loose! and i said, and she said oh well she said you know well it's that's how you've gotta take it stripped, for me to take that to get that done up by a restorer you'd have to take all the upholstery off, or quite a bit off well i was gonna say and then if it'd go up to about one seven she said, and i couldn't sell it here she said, i'm not chester prices i'm just that bit cheaper. which, a lovely lady! but but i thought, i was surprised to see it was loose, you know. well that's it, i mean the joints you've gotta take it home like that. the joints have got to be done haven't they? the joints have gone and this wanted doing but it would of been extortionate she said, you know, to get it done yeah. and then try and sell it you know, take well that's alright. all that into account. i think it's terrible really! that's bad! and i've seen chairs like that, i've seen i don't know whether it's there but a couple of places, bedroom chairs, gorgeous things, you know! and the backs! you know, you can do this with the back! i mean, you don't like saying to the people no. you know, because no. their faces drop when you they do. you're not supposed to say you'll be marked man when you get in there. you're supposed be glad that it's old and don't sit in there, you know th but er it's bad, but though isn't it? it is. well you know, you turn things out here and you go in you might see that little yeah, put it in and magnified in your mind aren't they? that's right, like my my . that's alright. i like it. top of the class gwyneth! get the stuff done well er terrible, and he said yes it, why not! mm. might go and ask him about that ammonia. yes you're ammonia is heated downstairs. right erm eight eighty ammonia. how much d'you want? well i mean, whatever you say in the well no i think it'll you a hundred cc or a a of yeah. yonks fair enough. right. the only thing, other thing is we've been you know debating about the er stuff to make up the wax which we'll have to go to morrells by all, and get it sent here well listen anybody. anyone that wax that we made up there with the antique wax hasn't turned out as well it did with mansion polish so when you make it up mansion? mm get some mansion wax. oh! i think they cut it too. i wouldn't believe it made that much difference do you? gone all solid. i never tried it actually . oh i see! so you want the old fashioned mansion polish mansion. with it. there's only a small amount in it anyway. mm. show yo , show you a wax polish you haven't seen before. ooh fair enough,. he's gonna bring some er for us. oh is he? so we need because you've gotta have the right stuff. it's no good messing yeah. about with the the normal household stuff. yeah so said we can get. yeah, i wish now i didn't think, i that i'd ask , he was busy and mm. had he got a great big bottle? it was only forty pence! mm. you kno , you know i said it's i had the er the recipe yeah. there, so it's two ounces, so it's a . yeah. but i suppose i should of got a couple of quid of yeah. but not for all these, you know yeah. but i think i'll cheat. so er so anyway, we'll see you on tuesday won't we mike? yeah. all being well. yes. and maybe i'll start on the chair. wha what do we need to to be a ? egg cups as well? more legs. hey,we can have an egg race! an egg race. egg and spoon race! er no when you erm you know that i was telling you keep your bit of used up erm sandpaper fly paper yes. you make that into a little cornet and mi put it in oh! right! yo it's it's a cornet like that. oh yes we do that, yeah. you need to, you need to stand it in something. in the yeah. egg box well we've oh, it's easy! what for doing your er pigments and that, is it mixing yeah. those up? oh i see we erm ah yes, yes, i see now yes! we use a bit of the top of the jar normally and er hey one thing i was gonna query you on mike the erm sanding sealer you know you say you must leave that for at least a week? well, you can bi what i tend to is is get a coat on er, first thing in the morning, another coat in the afternoon and then leave it for a week. cos it really does, it still goes on settling into the oh yeah! grain , have you got it here? i don't know, i, i, i took it home with me. no, i took it home, i i was sort of leaving that to you you know, as you say, as you've just mentioned now that, but no, i thought when you first of you said haven't got the time to put these all the layers of on, you know and that's why! and you you gotta wa yo yes, i suppose you should come in the breaks. i was purely killing myself! initially you you're doing that then saying right, forget that one, get on with something else and that's there for a week or whatever till that thoroughly hardens and then . , look at that and then and then you can straight onto it. right, i'll leave that till tuesday. so if i bring it again on tuesday yeah. in the state that i've you know have you put one coat on already? yes. er what's it look like? seems quite thick you know. don't forget i'm go , we're going on top of polish here. we'll try it. we'll try it and see what it looks like. it'll you know if you need to, just have to put another one on. yes. have you got sute and carbide here? well got ? i don't know what you call it here. the grey paper. grey, yes, oh yes! b twenty. that's it, yes! yeah. so that's what i'll i'll use on right! okay, well see you tuesday anyway. right. cheerio! bye! bye bye! you off home? from actually pat,i romford is it? what do you say? no! west london. no! i was born in the city of london actually. oh that's right yes! and then actually within the sound of bow bells, i was! were you? i thought so! yes! yes! every now and again you slips talk like that if i want to. she says free! free o 'clock! no, she doesn't, no! but then you lived most of yo oh yes. in the war we went to . by the sea? good old and started off by the sea but that wasn't a good idea really was it? no ! ! no, that was bad planning that was ! , no! so we just stayed anywhere and if you hadn't got anywhere to go that's right. go in anywhere. mm, mm. we ended up not by the sea. and look where you've ended up, this dump! yeah. oh i think so. that'll be alright. i forgot, don't know the yes! what about buckley north wales, now there's a bit of class up there you know, in those hills! oh no!yeah. no, i've er, i used to have a bungalow in wales. not a lot! showens in between erm oh it's just get under water now! your bungalow! yeah. no! terrible! oh no it's er i'm afraid. and so he decided he could get about three caravans on the the price that my bungalow was occupying. it was only summer timber thing, you know. yes, that's right.. it had to go because he could make more money having erm the three caravans on the site that this occupying. the old story! so i enjoyed it. so you haven't got your fierre de tie now? or you've the children got another one? the children loved it! used to go . happy da i'm a teapot ray! it's a, i'm not lying to you, you know! i put four teabags in there fill it up with boiling water right? and then put it on the stove and stew it! mm mm. oh no! right, and that i do all day is put a little top up in there. i couldn't drink that now! no, i, i i have done years ago. that was the irish way that. well that's the way i've used to say i've always do you want a cup of tea that's been stewing for three days? just go and get it when you are when you want more of this. ah, but it's goes too dark doesn't the er it? strongest you know, about his all night, you know it really does. but you must have a go , a fantastic coating on your insides don't you ! yeah. like the inside of a teapot, like. ! he hasn't finished yet with his are they on or a finger? i'll just move some alright, my old son god bless! that'll do me now. in er, in that sense i agree i i that waxing's taken half an hour! yeah, it's just this waiting for this sanding sealer you see to dry. but then you're not spending hours no. putting you know the button on the while you are here. if you do it the way bill says. everybody will you be wanting it? already made up . cos i need it's a it's a grey area isn't it? well it's been on no, i mean for so long, i mean i can't i mean yo , you don't get waxing off bill do you? no. yeah we, he showed me. was it two times that's what i do and then and then let it harden off and then mm. put the wax on. that's why . i think the some of the we've turned out isn't so important is it? oh no. you know, you get something that's only twenty five years old it's not so important to get it perfect. i say, it's like a you know, as the stuff he's doing because oh yeah! that's right. and he's very good! very good top quality you see so he's gotta have it right. that stuff. it's handy to know the right way to do it innit? yes, i suppose it is. and i mean the way he did that table i suppose cos he it's nice that table anyway! that old one's gone, you know. so i'm looking forward to seeing what he does with that. it's a nice approach i think. mm. and he makes it interesting. mm. whereas bill bill tends to be a bit i don't know se dictorial doesn't he? this is how it's done get on with it i'm going now! you know, and then if you ask him again he says, i've told you once! but he does get funny! he's a funny man! what do you want, a chair? yeah. er, there's one over here look! there's one left. he's got that huge nice house! yes, i know! i know what that means. do want a pouffe? these coxes are nice! one of my favourite apples is erm er, a russet. yeah. we left that really. but the last, really seem to be tiny now and yeah! i they're not nice when they're full of that's a horrible colour that one! yeah , and just a, as an old old taste about them! i get my favourite apple . oh! some of them are a bit tasteless i find. mm. absolutely no taste at all! what like a peach? yeah. you soon get fed up eating it don't you? but you'll soon find that it only needs one . i am. do you want my core margaret? it's used to say that in liverpool ! i thought . can i have your core? ooh god ! a and then again have chair, you know,pe , people are reticent of it, they're frightened if it goes yeah. i'd be hopeless! i wouldn't be able to do it, keep up yes. with cos well when we had the open day and we had a lot of people round here! yes. it's really interesting! yeah. yeah, i notice joan tapping at the saying, ooh ooh ooh ooh! yeah she's sewing them all up for friday! has she? yeah. oh, didn't know. what do you mean vell well no, a whole of vell he's going to go get some give me some for, for september? bit early yet isn't it? well, it could have been won't have the roll and foam. well then put it. well, i wouldn't of thought won't be so they wouldn't be allowed to join won't be hardly would they er hardly anything left now. no. and i don't know how many dropped out so twenty two. i'd well i suppose they could do couldn't they? mm. and it's not gonna cost anything so the i mean pat started late with us, you know. she she missed about two months, i think, pat. but she soon caught up, you know it didn't make any difference to her but there's john next door, he di , he just started a couple of weeks ago. about five the young chap? short chap? yeah. yeah. yeah. and he's doing brilliantly! he's , he's marvellous on the upholstery. on the upholstery, yeah! well he's only twenty! to go yeah. into somewhere erm you know the the the table that he's doing now he's doing the varnishing the table, you know and he really in! you know i always it's terrible! some people seem to drop in don't yes. they? others have a bit of a tough time especially i think with ladies well i found it easy. they're join , doing joints and that, you know, er i mean,tha tha sheila, she said oh i'm not interested at all in doing mortars and tenons or yeah. you know ! yeah. but then if you want to do the restoration yo i've have a go i'll have a go at them they were they didn't look very good but, i mean, at least i did them, you know yeah. i oh, i think they're and maybe you you you you improve with testing them. yeah. got to! both got oh! the that yeah. realise actually you get too busy you know, for what you've got to do to of course! yeah! i mean, look at now look at me or the guys with the sewing machines i mean yeah. ya. the the these hands weren't meant for sewi but i mean yo you do get better. oh yes! it's surprising! especially when you you know, just like a . she really has got . mind you she looks a bit tired now, asleep isn't she? but er well this is no good! well i the whistle's gone. come on shirley, i, you're oh! usually first up for that! we're always rushing ! yeah . no you're not. i'm going mrs . again? i don't thi i don't think miss they don't call her part-time shirley for nothing you know! mind you, when she's here it's worth it! ah! i see. now,i are we interested in going to the yes. it's on the sixth of july and it'll cost forty pounds. forty! and then you said twenty five quid! i've been told that on tuesday. it's gonna be forty mind you, for that, girl pounds. it's worth, it's worth it! forty pounds, right i'll get a bit of paper. he, he went into hospital and they said erm that it's the muscles of his heart that were affected they couldn't do anything more for him! just sa , you know, so he said right well i might as well go home. so he went home and he out about two weeks got fed up, you know, like that man you know, doing nothing so he had a scooter that needed repairing he died as he repaired the scooter! she went out his wife, shopping left him tinkering with this scooter came back, couldn't get in then she did get in and he was dead on the floor! good grief! what a terrible for the wife! sixty, sixty! you don't know, i mean he could of gone if he'd been lying in a chair wa watching the oh yeah. telly you just mm mm. don't know! i mean at least he was doing something that yeah he liked. stretched out on the floor! but of course, i mean, we know little about it they do say if you have had a heart attack it's no good you know, as soon you get up and you start eating going for five mile walks oh no, that'd it's gotta be a very different. gradual thing. yeah. i mean but yo you must exercise but yeah. obviously using a bit of sense yeah. as well. perhaps he's, perhaps him something or yeah. strained. well standing or you know god i dunno! he probably was told to go home and take it easy, you know, and mm. he's like me you get well like most you can't men they get fed up, that's like i know most women do the same. oh yeah bu you see, er er, you're not supposed to life anything for if one of my grandsons falls over, the first thing you do is pick him up you know! and then er it's so constricting! yo yo you, you been used to working hard and if they say don't do this yeah. you don't do it. i i'd go mad i would, honestly! mm mm. mm. but i i er remember margaret, my wife when she had the er the last one which is a a gap of about ten years between the third you know, and the fourth child yeah. so of course she had to in hospital so, have this on my pregnancy, you know yeah. and we'd lost one. mm mm. mm. oh didn't wanna leave home, but anyway she went in and somebody said, oh it'll be about a week you know my fifth one really. mm mm. what? anyway, this somebody must of given her the idea, i think it was our local doctor oh you'll be alright you know, you have to have to have them in forty eight hours you see so mhm mm. she was in this hospita , the, the city hospital in chester which is not used now for that. mm. and er i do don't know which day it was but she was sitting there fed up second day i'm thinking she said well i, i'm going home tomorrow, so i said no you're staying in for the week! we yeah. well that was it then,urgh ! yeah anyway she was that bad, anyone sa who she saw plus the doctor, you know oh he said, oh no! so i think they let her out the day after. yeah. the proviso that she took it easy , mm. i had to go there and er i could go back with her in the ambulance. mm. and then of course, as you say strictly yeah. no work, well no. don't take any notice! you know what women are like, they ha yeah. they got kids to look after, the first thing you do it's, it is silly really you know but i mean oh i know but you're especially for working people, unless you got a maid or something, which you know wha especially where there's children involved, i mean yeah. you just don't think, you've, you've lifted kids don't understand. them before you think about you shouldn't be doing that. you know, if they fall over and their but then again knees are bleeding or whatever ! you say that's right! you pick them up, if they fall i was back at work which you think er no they have no. ooh my doctor told me er these guys aren't they, if their wife has a baby. oh yeah! mm mm. that were ! they used to call them in in in on th , when i was collecting her mm. you know, and they'd say the wife ha had a baby mm. she'd be doing the work and th and he'd be sitting watching the that the wa , leaving the television! cos they have the time yeah! off to look after the yeah, yeah. wife ! yeah ! ah, god ! oh me! the er the minstrel boy. oh yes. you don't , you don't wanna hear it! i've seen it, he's been now. and i could oh! just see the hall and an yeah. and the lovely voices voices well i say lovely! and then we wa ha was that in i'll just ask wales? well they have got good voices in wales haven't they? no, no this is in liverpool where i oh was it? mm mainly brought up in mm, no. you know. yeah but erm ooh i can, i can remember that some good old ones yeah. you know, you don't which school did you go to? oh, and er lons road in weybridgeley when the war started we left weybridgeley and went to er and then erm twig lane was it? and then,highton modern secondary you might school, the secondary modern school yeah. with co , with co-eds yeah. you know. and that was it then till i left but erm it was a different world though then wasn't it? you know? the nineteen sixties. tell you what, when the wa , when the war was over we came came to erm dissert oh yeah. when the bomb was about, in weybridgeley yeah. you see for, i don't know, so many months. my mum couldn't stand it in the end she sa let's get back to bomb there! yeah, curtains used to go mm. foreigners, yeah! yeah. but er the school, i think it was rudling i, i've often tried to find it but i i'm not sure which one i , you know, for yeah. little tots i , that's sa where they were. probably some assembly rooms, that's what they put us in. think this an actual churchy-type school oh a school was it? yeah. but they had a li , i remember this little room now with a fire going yeah. you see. mm. and erm one day a chap came with a donkey in the classroom and it was a, an educated donkey they were and he was what's three and three? and he'd go once counting, they do like the horses do in what the circus! what are the, what are these doing? i said, i don't know i need to think. oh god, it was magic it was ! yeah. and i look back on that and you know, nineteen yeah. forty one, or whatever it was, forty, forty one yeah, through the evacuation. yeah. and it was er and then we came to er near er par prenton yeah. in the caravan mm. mum and dad came to yeah. stay in this caravan and these posh houses were ! we went there one day and my sister and i,mu , mum was in liverpool and the sign went sister was elder sister, he was terrified, our john! and we ran to this house i said aha! i said lady can you take my sister cos she's frightened of the bombs ! really! where are you from she said? in that field down there ! god, she must of thought we were gypsies! yeah. well, she said you'd better come in. always remember the be at the door where there was beads curtain, you know as you went through and you've never seen anything like before you know! no ! sat there, this cup of tea, terrified! more terrified than the ruddy planes coming over ! but my mum had to go oh. over every week for the groceries you see, had to stick to your own grocer didn't you? there's your rations. , your ration yeah. books, and you couldn't sort of swop the oh no! no, they had to round. go over. and mum always used to say that's what gave you that hernia that walking all the way for food! yeah! dragging it all backwards and forwards, yeah! oh god! well but i loved it you know! mm. i loved it! perversely! but, to me mm. it was er er er exciting terrifying, yeah of course it was! it was and my different, yeah. my sister didn't, she was frightened no. you know the is she a bit older than you? a couple of years older than me mm. but she's a nervous type you know. yeah. they'd go collecting shrapnel in the street, you know and yeah, my brother would go out and do that, yeah! sometimes it was warm! yeah. oh boy! if it happened now i'd be i'd be terrified for the kids you know! so you're it's in it's incredible isn't you it? birkenhead lady are you? yo ah i i was born in liverpool and i mother, sort of a very old family a but erm in what part of liverpool? do you er i was born in the it's off erm i don't suppose it's there any more erm what's the road? what is the road that comes down erm joins erm you know where the hippodrome er, used to be? no, not at all. no, erm it's not west derby road, round there is it? yes! it's at well i see when you said the hippodrome it no, and it, no this this road comes , well there's the hippodrome there or was, i don't suppose it's there now and you go, at this road here so it's this way on the west derby road comes this way i seem to remember the pub erm called the grapes round there, is there? the breacon well there was one called the breacon well on that road that's right! lo , and this is, you go rou is is near to lodge lane and you went up round that way, it is? no, no. erm edge lane? no. prescott road. no, edge lane is over that way. got west derby road and prescott road. no, no, you're going the other way! oh! erm when you're coming you know, going, as if you were going to erm do you know where the erm the, the funny thing was and the brow , everton brow , there was a well i know everton, yeah. cafe place erm what's that i use thing? where they used to ma , yes. what wa , what is it ? but they used to make it. yes. the i dunno i the old ladies we used make the erm everton coffee. coffee , yes. erm there was like a water tower thing in erm i don't know and a piece of a green railing rai , you know, if it was railed all round. oh i see! erm well this road went up to erm breckfield road oh yes, i remember that! well breckfield road north breckfield road and then ran i know the name. between beside the cabbage hall was it? no. pictures? no. i don't think so. yeah it's nineteen fifty when i left, you know, it's a long time ago! and we wha well what if that was highton you know, not liverpool yeah. itself, that was a and then we moved from there to er going out to skelmey is it? skelmersdale, or has tha that's gone? no, somewhere round er queen's drive, oh queen's drive! that wo , you know at the end of erm that's nice,. yes, it was very nice! mum liked ooh! it, but pop didn't. lot of doctors there and because he printed the echo and er when he was working late he couldn't get out there. mm. and he missed his mm. erm drinking partners i think. so he oh yeah! decided that we're moving back further in you know. mm mm back further in. which is a pity and then of course they started throwing bombs around and we, we were, we were evacuated i see. to erm a place called bridgenorth in between bridgenorth and kidderminster. i know i've se you know,bridgenorth i've seen the signs there, i've never been there and er but the first time we went carpets, isn't that there? where did we go first time? lot of carpets. we we , we went twice on tha , we were evacuated twice. we went to welsh hanson first erm my mum went as a volunteer, er a voluntary helper to eight children in charge of eight children. we used to troop behind her wherever she went. we went sort of walk behind her like brown cow, you know ! mm. and one day we were coming along and these local ladies were coming towards us said oh we love going down the country roads and you know, oh look at all these poor refugees! mm. well it's just my mother, you know . ooh!hor hor refugees! my dear ladies these children are in their own country! they're not refugees and well looked after! they're evacuees! what a thing to say! probably thought, ooh the poor devils, you know they ya. ya. well it's no wonder, we used to all troop behind her in ones and twos, you know like like a load of ducklings! hang about! doing the erm oh erm theresa! the bedford chair the one that's gone home? yeah. theresa? she left me her lemonade. oh yes! i didn't know, she'd done three years she said! pardon? done three years, er here. has she? that's what she said. i've never seen her before this year! she probably comes on another day. must do! well i'm not supposed to be telling you it anyway!. what are you on er already may? you're on three days are you, or what? no one day. oh just the one day? yeah. yeah. today? yeah. but you can come in tomorrow if you want? if i wanted to, yes. that's fair enough. that's what pat and i gonna do next year. yeah , that's what we're gonna do. yeah. sauce for the goose! got that fixed. i've never been in on a friday afternoon because erm friday it's good! is wonderful! nice and quiet. if i was desperate to finish something then i prefer to come on a friday. oh it's lo , it's lovely on a friday isn't it pat? yeah. no aggro. it's the best day! well it always was friday! sort of erm nobody seems to be in a flap and it yeah. and you just ge . do what you want come in here, go in the other room and yeah. go and have a sleep! it's the day to get things done isn't it? it is i think yeah! it is! and you got a bit more room . yeah. you gotta be careful ! we drove up, my grandson go goes to nursery you see and i like to give gwen a hand with the girls, i gotta be up with now well it's driving everybody round the bend! sometimes it loosens up with a aha! bit of methylated. yeah? two and half, and three and a half. good old joan! into everything ! well our daughter said that erm she keeps trying to get a job you know, she's got these three kids, she's on her own so oh is she?well how old's and er the youngest? er five i think mm. and the eldest only five, eight, eight's the eldest. five, they've got the girls , they're going to school now aren't yes. they? but, you know it but erm well, she said the other week bet it's hard you know! the job that could be going is at, this erm and they do these tapes or something in flint oh yeah. er saturday and sunday. cos well if you could have the kids you know ! no, not two days running ray! oh oh! you need one day to recuperate! what? you get a bit passed it you know! yeah. no, i, oh i ca , i can manage them, you know, two or three days when they were babies when they were younger! i know, but it's all but now they can si , run so fast i know! you know! i know! and she lives right on the , they get out of the gate . you got no chance of catching you oh lord, no chance! when you think though, it's history isn't it, repeating itself? well it is my case. oh yes,. you know i took himself off to the park the other day, the the tiny one you know!and fortunately i wasn't in charge, his father was in charge of them. gone up to their their room to pick up some their toys i wouldn't know how to, but the older one can open the gate! and the er she was running down the hill on but a lorry found them in vale park! playing ! it's awful today, isn't it? they're not safe leaving their ruddy gate are they? cos david told me shocked be quite funny ! but he says to he phoned him the other day on my down this morning ha so just to say, you know, that was crime of the century ! mind you, i er, i didn't know. well when you think i was only saying this last week to friends,i , we, you used to live live on the street and we were just playing you know. you know, not makes a difference. very few cars,e even in the city yo the side streets right. so i feel safe to play. but i mean today there's so many weirdos around the, ray now, yeah. well this is the other thing especially in in parks and things, yeah. so without their parents lot of kids spend their time watching the telly don't they? and videos and er and the these kids of our carrie's they know how to work all these oh yeah! machines. thing there with these fellers going along this thing. he tells me to how put but but but the video games in now! there's one now you press to ,twe , you press twelve and you i don't know ! wish she'd come and tell me how to set ours for a film that's on about yeah ! three o 'clock in the morning that i want to see because we're oh! ha you know it'd be handy that wouldn't it, if you could knew how to yeah. set it? do you know how to do it pat, do you? no, i don't ! no, we tried it once and we got the wrong ruddy film we did! so i dunno! we , what make have you got ray? what make is it? er sony? yeah, it is, yes, i think it's a sony, yeah. mm. but i mean, they're all the same aren't they, basically? i'll ask brett to draw you a diagram cos she's knows how to do it. but all i want is a knob to say right film tonight yeah. yeah, it's on timer. three o'clock. that's all i want. yeah. yeah,ye that's not that simple is it? you've gotta go through a sequence you see. have oh have you? oh yes! oh i haven't a clue! i really i was haven't got a clue! sam explained it to us once, in the end he said oh i'm go , i'm going home, he said you know, he he started asking us questions ! we flunk! didn't give you a written tape a ho oh! oh, he said, it's easy look! you do it with this bub bub bub bub bub yeah. and the light started going. yes, well that's all very well when they know ho , well it's like those erm computer things isn't it? you know, they well paul's got one of these at home it does and tha one of my son-in-laws, he said it does everything! now look, it's easy, you do this, this, this! i know, yes! first! i know, yes. but you can't, you know yeah. you're not taking in what he's doing. i know. i got no interest at all me! blow down. you know, show me a . all i want is easy knobs to turn with mm. big letters on the oh dear me! he says, for a start get your glasses on first! yes! that's right! that's a foot down a straight away isn't it, yeah ! you can't really see. oh dear me! mind you, they come to us sometimes for advice on jobs and that don't they? oh yeah. mm. works in both ways. we may be the wrinklies but we grow upwards. we know a bit! oh no it was supposed to be here. mind you, gotta clean it all out and take it out you got, i see, because you drawing it can pull it too tight i suppose and then er it's gonna be right at the front. but i felt i should of worn it out of the material. oh i see yes, that's good! good! good! good! look like. in keeping with a a camber as well, are you, on that? is that part of the sorry? you're taking the camber as well on this yeah. part are you? yeah. getting the hold right, yes. it's a lovely chair though isn't it? it's worth lovely! spending a bit of time isn't it? oh, you've got to! no, you tend to rush a job like that and then goof you wouldn't be happy. mm, it is yours is it, or no , it's mine! yeah, no, i bought it oh it's yours! i bought in think i'd get it lovely! how much? i paid forty five for it. well done! and in fact, it's been a that's why you needed quite a bit doing to it. that's old isn't it? yes it's a twin. victorian . oh well, i told you saw one at the cabe i in pa antiques in chester erm well, it's a nursing chair it wa , it was an armchair. oh yeah. i forget whether it had wings on it or not. er, i don't even know the cabe it's quite fancy isn't it, the stuff they've got? i've, i've never been to the cabe actually. it's lo it is worth a look. but they had this is it near melody antiques? go no further, i'm going towards sainsburys oh i know! oh yes! on the fifty one is it? the cristleton road. i know, yes, yes, yes! and it's right opposite or near the well, not opposite the billets it was the auction rooms before yes. you get to there. yes. but they had one in the corner you see and i could see the back leg was gone said to margaret an said i might as well do something of that, you know, to do up it's the only one that they had there that wanted really wanted repairing, so the feller said ooh i don't know he said hang on, i'll look in the book. very, very lucky! victorian walnut. a hundred and forty. the state it was in ! oh that's crazy! i said oh, i said, i'm very sorry but i don't kno , don't know what you'd have to charge to justify that you know, to buy it and then do it up, i don't know! yeah. you'd have to get two hundred and fifty at least, wouldn't you? so i thought that was a bit greedy so, that's not bad at all that! that would go for a lot more in mold would it? oh yes! oh yeah! definitely! which one do you get it from? i got this in tell me. is it philips? philips in chester. oh that's the one you're oh! but what it wanted to monday, isn't it? the go mm. on a monday? but it is a, it wasn't a, it wasn't in ordinary auction what is was, somebody had died in nantwich and they were doing selling the contents the of her house oh i see, clearing. and it it was on a, on another day, i can't remember what day it was, but there wa oh i see! but she said there weren't many people there actually and i got that but the proceeds he is welsh. were all going to the r s p c a. ah! special sale! ooh i'll have make a not of that! i saw erm we saw a campaign chair near mold week before last it was i asked the guy how much put down on it, you know, he said thirty pounds so i sa , i said i saw it for forty. didn't stay! when you can get choice of them, if they're going for forty over a piece! mm. forty five, fifty, something like that. and all it was, was a tiny thing, like a ruddy camp stool! and the leg so he said, well half a leg was missing. so i thought well i'm in with a chance, you know, one's wanted a and this leg repairing so compare it with that no no comparison really! very, very reasonable! mm. you got a chair that's worth another couple of hundred there so well, not yet. get this bit right on the back! oh! god! ah! don't you get critical when you've been here a bit? john, i've got to get the car on the ramps. feel my back breaking! is there any way to stop those ramps yes. shooting away. that's why,. i used to get two four by fours from the wall in the house. well i mean, that's an idea no i can't do it i haven't got these ! and but they seem to shoot away though. bit of carpet. carpet on on what? on that. on the ramps? well on, no o on the floor. no, you know the actual ramp itself yes. it's in, it's in rungs is it, yes? yes. the bottom rung bit of carpet round that line and wrap round the bottom rung. so, but if a tyre runs on that you won't end up oh i see! the car . it won't fall back. it's like double. yeah. hey! of course, that's right it's cos it's got it on the . yeah, so you're alright dad, just go on. ah, you don't you could you could make loads i can make loads of them! yeah, but the good thing, you know it's a good ramp innit, you see? yeah. but i, you know, i told you the front brakes they er snapped the middle and all this. yeah ! but this week, because the handbrake is a, wanted tightening up, you know, but i'll do that get it's m o t in another weeks time. yeah. so er took off the shoes one side had gone! oh oh christ! you know cylinders! cylinders all round, haven't you dad? have you got the no, it's only one side. oh right. so you get rubbers for it? no, i'll get a new one, i thought i'd co only on 102 f m, this is the fox report, with jane markham tonight, three people are found dead at a house in buckinghamshire. the talks to end the ambulance dispute continue in london, and the crisis at banbury's horton general hospital; the unit manager says there's just no more cash, so operations have to be cancelled. also on the programme, a local teacher says an a-level business studies exam is too easy. upper heyford's plans for this year's air show, and an oxford chef bids to become young chef of the year, that's all on the fox report with me, jane markham. the 6.00 news, this is annie webster, police investigating a triple murder in buckinghamshire are tonight trying to persuade a man hiding in nearby woods not to kill himself, paul chandler reports: the family, mother, father and their 16 year old son were found battered to death at their home in upper ridings, beckonsfield. police are now talking to a 30 year old friend of the family, who's up a tree in the nearby woods, threatening to jump off a branch with a rope round his neck. sergeant allen bovington cox says specialist teams are involved: we've got our own trained police negotiators there at the scene talking to him, and also we have a doctor and a psychiatrist standing by for any assistance they can give us. police say the man is in a stable frame of mind, and they are confident of talking him down. paul chandler, i r n, buckinghamshire. gas prices are going up in march by 7.5%, another building society, the halifax has put up its interest rates, although first time buyers are being spared the increase, and the chancellor, john major says the gloomy news isn't over, because inflation isn't coming down as fast as he predicted. neil kinnock agrees; he says high mortgage rates and the poll tax are bound to push up inflation rates even more. but mrs thatcher has told him in the commons the government's not to blame: as the right honourable gentleman is aware, our top priority is to get inflation down, and i would also hope that he would be aware that the aim of doing that in the longer term has to be by making the price of money more expensive. if he doesn't know that i'm very surprised. americans will be able to make up their own minds about former president, ronald reagan's testimony, in the trial of his former national security adviser, admiral john poindexter. in video-taped evidence, mr reagan has admitted he approved the covert arms for hostages operation, that became known as the iran contra affair, although he says he didn't authorise his staff to break the law. now, as nick peters reports, the testimony is to be made public: federal judge, harold green, ordered the immediate release of the transcript, saying the public has a right to know what the former president said. mr reagan says he cannot recollect many of the key events surrounding the scandal, which he says was as much news to him as everyone else. admiral poindexter, charged with lying about his role in the affair, says he was acting under mr reagan's orders. his trial begins on march the 5th. nick peters, i r n washington. shell u k will have to wait until tomorrow to hear what sentence it receives for causing a 30 mile oil slick which polluted the river mersey. a judge at liverpool crown court has adjourned the case after asking for details of shell's profits. vicky henman reports: shell has admitted full responsibility for the spillage of a hundred and fifty tons of crude oil into the mersey last august, and has apologised for the slick which killed 300 birds and injured 2,000 others. the company revealed in course it expects to pay out £1,412,336 in compensation, as well as the clean up operation, which is still going on. the court also heard that a decision by a senior manager to pump water into the leaking pipeline from tranmere terminal, to the refinery at stanmere port, actually made the situation worse. nicky henman, i r n, liverpool. the court of appeal has just ruled that councils that trade on the money markets with rate payers' cash, are acting legally. but the court says that deals are only allowed to protect rate payer's money from fluctuations in interest rates, and can't be carried out for trading purposes. crucial talks are continuing in london between ambulance management and unions, with the resolution of the 6 month pay dispute at stake. and the rail unions have begun pay rise talks where they're asking for rises approaching double figures. britain's newest t.v. satellite station, b s b, has announced a star-spangled line up for its launch in april, celebrities such as mike smith, naturalist david bellamy, juke box jury host, jules holland, will all be in the forefront of the drive for viewers. b s b chief, john gowe, says the stakes are high, and competition with rupert murdoch's sky channel will be tough: difficult to know whether er rupert murdoch will want to sustain what is obviously going to be a fairly bruising battle for 3 years. but i think if we don't get the audiences in 3 years, you know, we'll go bust. independent radio news. it's thursday the 22nd of february 1990. first a look at some of today's main stories in a bit more detail. the unit general manager of the horton general hospital in banbury says there's no end in sight to the cash crisis which is about to affect patients in the area. the hospital has overspent its budget for this financial year by £70,000. it means it will be no treatment for 150 routine patients over the last 5 weeks, and that starts on monday. last august the hospital had to close 26 beds because it couldn't afford to staff them. horton general manager, denis baston, admits he's again facing an embarrassing situation. we're very sorry to have to curtail our services er in this way. we're having with effect from next monday to reduce er our service to urgent cases only: accidents, emergency cases, those that need urgent medical care, they will be dealt with, but patients who are awaiting this type cases, for orthopaedics, gynaecology, general surgery er will have to be postponed for a period of about 5 weeks. our budget er is at the present time overspent er something of the order of £70,000, and we're required by the health authority and by government, er to manage within our existing cash limited budget. do you accept that, regardless of the background, is poor management on your behalf? no, we have in fact done a great deal to conserve our resources here, er and as i say we have treated er something like 500 patients by the end of this year, addition to what we treated in er the previous year, and that can only be as a result of good management, both nursing and medical. but nevertheless, there's going to be a month period, plus there'll be five weeks where people won't be able to be treated for routine operations here. exactly so, because we haven't got the money to do it. who do you blame? er well it's very easy to er blame government for not allocating resources, er but er the pure fact is that the health authority has insufficient resources to allocate to us to meet the increasing demands of this area. is there any guarantee that this situation might not be repeated er a year from hence? i think if we get the same budget next year, we will have to consider very carefully what work load we undertake in the next financial year, yes. what do you hope you can do in terms of providing or possibly squeezing out at the eleventh hour, the cash that you need from the oxfordshire regional health authority, to try and stop er routine patients not being treated from monday? well, i don't think there's any action that's likely to be taken by the regional health authority in time for next monday. er. obviously if we get any additional cash allocation from any source, it will be deployed in er such a way as to treat the patients as soon as possible. but we're in the hands obviously of the health authority. you're listening to the fox report. banbury's m p, tony baldrey says he's also very concerned about the horton's cash crisis. although he claims nothing can be done immediately to prevent the cancellation of non-urgent admissions, he's convinced the hospital will be one of the beneficiaries of the proposed n h s reforms. the budget of the horton generally puts day to day work has got to better reflect the fact that there's a growing district hospital, and has got to better reflect the size of the population it serves, and then also about a third of the patients that are treated at the horton come from warwickshire, northamptonshire and gloucestershire, but actually the horton is funded as if every patient there comes from oxfordshire, and that's clearly crazy, and we've got to make quite sure that cross-boundary flows of patients are better reflected by cross boundary flows of money. and that will happen under the proposed n h s reforms, when the rather complex formula for allocating money within the n h s, is replaced by a much simpler formula. so yes, er i mean the difficulties of the horton are a reflection of the kind of crazy way in which we allocate money within the n h s at the moment. and the horton i think will stand to benefit as much as any hospital, by the proposed n h s reforms in insuring that er money follows the patients, and that we don't have these sorts of situations arising again, whereby when hospitals treat more patients they simply run out of money more quickly. you're listening to the fox report, it's 9 minutes past 6. there's still no news from the talks in london which are trying to bring about an end to the ambulance dispute. nick thenotsy is chairman of oxfordshire's nupe, nick do you think this is good or bad news that they're still talking? er it's very difficult to say. i think er they're still talking at the moment. there may still be a few sticking points even at these late stages. er. having said that, if there isn't any pay formula included in this deal, er no matter what the percentage increase over the two years, i think er the strength of feeling across the country, people will not be happy with this and if it is balloted on it will be rejected. now, it's the pay formula er that is that is the problem in your mind, er have you got any suggestion that they aren't talking about that? er again it's difficult to say, the information has been leaking out from the talks, er it doesn't look as though a pay formula is being included but roger pulne, er even on the onset of this dispute guaranteed the members er that any deal that was struck with management would include a pay formula and er if the deal doesn't come out with a pay formula after the ballot as i say, i think people are going to be very disappointed and let-down by our union negotiators. now what sort of pay formula would you like to see them come up with? i think er it's got to be er linked certainly to the rate of inflation, er and in some way linked to the way that the fire service er has their pay formula, and they're actually linked to 25% of the top 25% of schooled manual workers, er we'd be looking at some sort of deal like that, or if it wasn't er tied up with percentage rates i think we need, definitely need an independent pay review body for the ambulance service. so, even if the talks break up tonight, i say break up, but if they er if the talks have a positive mood when they finish, you're saying that that might not necessarily be the end of the dispute? oh no er necessarily not, because er depending on the details of the er formula that all the words that er come out of the discussions today, er it's got to be discussed by the members at grass-roots level, and if we're not happy with it, we will be sticking to the action er certainly up until when the ballot is taken and if it is voted against er any deal that is struck at the moment, we will continue the action, and i think this will be not only in oxfordshire, but up and down the country, the strength of feeling nationally is very strong. nick thenotsy, thank you very much. all the routes out the city are very very busy this evening down the botley road, up the woodstock road, and down the abingdon road. as usual for this time in the evening, it's very very hectic indeed there. the local area or the area run locally is the stratfield break its virtually bumper to bumper stuff there in both directions, that's between the kidlington road roundabout and the banbury road roundabout. pear tree, well, serious congestion there as well, it's not getting away with it this evening. bad in all directions there, particularly heading north on that a34. elsewhere the a401 still very heavy in both directions between abingdon and dorchester-on-the-thames due to an accident a little bit earlier on this evening. if you are thinking of heading on towards the capital there's no such problems there, the m4 the m40 and the m25 running quite nicely this evening. mark newson, a a road watch. british rail tells us that the 5.51 sheffield to paddington train is 15 minutes late this evening, but i've nothing to report so far on the buses. still to come, 8 men are found guilty of one of britain's biggest ever drug trafficking operations, and rail unions warn they're prepared to strike over this year's pay claim. for a summary of today's local news, here's lucy bonner. the tory mp for aylesbury, timothy raisin, is calling for a fresh look into the way the social fund is operated. it follows a ruling in the high court that the government's guidance to officers that operate it is too strict, limiting awards of grants and loans to poor people. but mr raisin says he doubts the labour party's criticism that the budget itself is too small. i'm not sure whether that's true, i mean i think the argument er in this particular case is about the amount of money which a particular area of the department of social security can operate, and presumably looking at this, nichola scott will have to er match up if you like the total quantity and make sure it's effectively allocated. it may be that some areas are running out of money er which clearly need money, maybe there's other areas are in surplus with the demands on them that aren't so great, so the answer may simply be to find a way of operating with greater flexibility within the total cash limit. labour councillors in oxfordshire have been hitting back at tory critics, who claim their actions have inflated poll tax figures. the conservatives on the county council say the budget approved, which is supported by labour and the liberal democrats, has forced poll tax charges above the government estimate of £278. the vale of white horse district council has become the first to set its poll tax at £412. but labour councillor, tom richardson, defending his party's chosen budget says the problems with the poll tax have been the government's own making: if they'd been wise and told their government that this tax should not happen, as indeed many of their former ministers, like michael heseltine said, they'd said it was incredibly complicated although seemed sounding easy, and would in fact bring higher levels of taxation to the lowest income people, then er if the local tories had actually acted on that and put pressure on their central party, perhaps their government wouldn't be in such a mess about this issue now. any study on the effects of radiation should include harwell, according to a labour county councillor. margaret mackenzie says 4 children in the area have leukaemia and the region around harwell nuclear base should be re-examined, the last research was conducted in 1982. ms mackenzie first approached the environmental committee last may, but so far the result hasn't been encouraging. well, they approached other authorities and other organisations er in order to find the funds, and the other authorities and other organisations refused to cough-up, because there had been a report in 1982, er as a result of some research at that time. i think that research is now out of date in the light of new information on sellafield, dounreay and aldermarston. the managing director of oxford united said the club will fight on for a new stadium, despite planning problems. two proposed sites in blackbird leys have been included in the green belt, which could hinder the commercial development united says will be needed to help pay for the new all seater stadium. but although recent decisions by oxfordshire county council and south oxfordshire district council have gone against the club, managing director, pat mcgere, says he'll press on with efforts to have the club relocated from the manor ground. nobody wants er a stadium in their own back yard. er. what we're trying to do is to provide not only a stadium but something that everybody will want to use. er. it will be an asset to oxford and oxfordshire, and will be enjoyed by er an enormous number of people, the local people. that's what we want to provide, and that's what we're going to fight for. fox f m news, lucy bonner reporting. it's 18 minutes past 6. eight men have been found guilty of running one of britain's biggest drug trafficking organisations. the convictions follow a 2 year joint customs and police investigation, code named ‘operation doorman’, that spanned 8 different countries in europe and africa. the men will be sentenced next month along with two others who'd admitted the charges. from the old bailey, simon israel reports: for five years from 1983, the organisation swamped britain with more than £18 million worth of cannabis. there were 14 shipments in all from africa, the drugs hidden in coffin-style bundles of wood. senior customs investigator, michael packham, says the breakthrough came with a tip-off: the organisation had put in an innocent manager to take delivery of a consignment of wood. they'd rented a forklift truck which was incapable of actually carrying the wood. and in the process of unloading one of the bundles, it split open and the manager found the cannabis concealed inside it. the enquiry took officers to eight different countries, including the ivory coast and south africa, where the drugs were packed for shipment. the brains behind the organisation were 52 year old roy crack from surrey and 42 year old paul newmann from south london, who both went from ‘rags to riches’ on the profits from the drugs. detective inspector, tony smith from number 9 regional crime squad, says newmann was able to finance his passion for top class motor racing: he's a very well spoken, he's er a well educated man, speaks fluent french, er was living in a very large house, very much involved in the er racing fraternity er car racing, motor racing fraternity, was regularly seen at brans hatch, er mixed with er a lot of well known personalities in that field, er generally speaking his life style er was very good indeed. all funded from drugs? we can't find any legitimate source of income. mr packham says the organisation was highly sophisticated, using bogus companies and false names and addresses. i would say this is probably one of the most significant police/customs joint operations that we've er undertaken for quite some time. the entire gang will be sentenced next month after customs officers apply to the courts to have the organisation's assets seized, an estimated £3.5 million. a solicitor who cannot be named for legal reasons faces trial in the summer accused of laundering much of the drug money. you're listening to the fox report. it's 20 minutes past 6. an environmental pressure group in oxfordshire is disputing the reasons for harwell managers closing two of the testing reactors. the management says they were closed for commercial reasons. pluto and dido will be closed by the end of march. but the banbury environmental research group which has given evidence to the select committee on energy over harwell says the reasons for the shut-down are more complicated. their spokesman, paul mobbs, says the cost of replacing the reactors is prohibitive on safety grounds: well at the moment, the harwell laboratories are having their exemption from nuclear survey at 1965 removed. er. because of that the reactors had to undergo a licensing procedure from nuclear , now that survey, which they have been carrying out for a number of months now, almost certainly would require that a number of major improvements be made to those reactors, and they just haven't got the money to do that at the moment. therefore, they were left with the option of investing millions of pounds or closing them, and perhaps looking at the building of a new reactor. what harwell's saying is that it's purely on commercial grounds that dino and pluto are to close. have you any evidence to gainsay that? technically, it is on commercial grounds, and they cannot recoup the money made from the everyday operation of the reactor to pay for the refurbishment of the reactor, that is true. but, as we have evidence going back a number of years the reactor is in such poor condition that there is no way they could safely operate the current requirement of the modern government standard. why do you say that? where's the evidence? the evidence comes from a number of sources, for instance, the ex-head of reactor designer research at harwell, mr denis dorson, he on a number of occasions tried to institute a great number of changes into the reactors to make them safer. for instance, these reactors are the only ones in the country with power over one megawatt which do not have an independent shut-down system. they are one of the few reactors in the country which, if anything went wrong with the core in any way, could not be shut down. so, do you see as the real reason for the shut-down of dido and pluto really a win for the arguments long standing of the environmental lobby. er not exactly of the environmental lobby. i myself would seemingly represent the environmental lobby, but there have been others, many ex-members of harwell, who have been campaigning for a long time now, many years, to get these reactors shut down, and it has just been a very long slog, and eventually the truth has had to come to light to shut these reactors down. you are listening to the fox report. union leaders of the largest union in the fox f m area are warning that they haven't ruled out the possibility of taking strike action in pursuit of their pay claim. national negotiations started today between the national union of railwaymen and the national railway's board, in london. last year there were six weeks of stoppages for passengers before the union settled for an 8.8% figure. the divisional officer for the n u r, covering oxfordshire and buckinghamshire, phil mcgarry says he's looking for a fair deal: we haven't put a figure on it, but our claim is for a substantial increase in basic rates of pay with a reduction in the working week. can you be more specific than a ‘substantial claim’? well, no, we are governed by our annual general meeting, but it's not unrealistic to ask for double figures, because basically we were talking in that vein last year, and of course we eventually settled for 8.8. but surely you can't expect the government, now that the ambulance dispute in the public sector is in its sixth month to get what you'd call a substantial, possibly double figured settlement? well, with the greatest respect, the ambulance workers' argument in the question of a pay review er is a different argument totally. we have got a well established machinery instituted, we work under that auspices and i believe it is not unreasonable to ask for a substantial wage increase, because after all, a lot of our members depend on family income supplement and rents and rates rebates. some of the councils who have set the poll tax budgets in relation to the government's community charge is far in excess of their estimation, and you know it's absolutely ridiculous. i don't know how working class people can manage to survive. we have got to depend on state hand-outs to live, and i think that's shocking to say the least. last year there were six weeks of industrial action, and if needs be, are you prepared to do the same again? well, we cannot rule out that possibility. it's early days yet to say what er we are going to do. i think it all depends on what the british feel the response is going to be, either today or in the future. you're listening to the fox report. there's still deadlock between british rail managers and oxford city councillors over access for the disabled at the city's station. the council's planning committee is urging major alterations, including lifts between platforms. otherwise they say both the able bodied and the disabled will face severe problems. but chairman of b r, bob reid, who's disabled himself, has intervened, a move that was welcomed by the council. there's to be a meeting with directors from network south east. meanwhile, labour's john power, who's head of planning on the city council says there are major problems to overcome: british rail have refused to put lifts in, we've managed to persuade them to put ramps in so that people could actually carry luggage up the stairs, and people could be wheeled up the stairs. they've now taken the ramps out, which is a breach of the planning condition again, so we intend to pursue them on that, and they are offering, believe it or not that disabled people can be taxied from one side of the station to the other side of the station. how seriously are british rail treating the problem? well, up until we'd received this letter from er the new chairman designate, er bob reid, not seriously at all. we put immense pressure on them, we tried everything we could, we raised it with the transport users consultative committee at national level, we wrote to the minister and all kinds of and they didn't budge at all, you wouldn't think they were a public body. it now seems that because there's a disabled managing chairman, they're now prepared to talk to us, and we've got to talk to the director of network south east about these problems. and i hope they can now be resolved. what is their reason for not complying with these regulations? they claim that it would cost £300,000 extra on the station. now i find that nonsense, because the planning committee have just approved a major development station, which is for a 150 bed hotel on a housing development. and by any estimate that's a development that's worth £20 million at least to them. i don't know the exact figure, but certainly several million pounds, and if you can't find £300,000 for the disabled, it seems to me quite shocking. and particularly when british rail have a declared policy of improving access for the disabled. now if you don't improve access for the disabled when you build a new station, you'll never improve it. you're listening to the fox report. it's 28 minutes past 6. well, those traffic lights on the stratfield break's definitely giving us problems again this evening, of course, there's road works going on there, traffic is still virtually bumper to bumper up there, very, very slow indeed. also pear tree roundabout, in all directions, particularly heading north, er from the a34 and continuing on that a43 up towards the kidlington roundabout. very, very slow moving there indeed, and it's going very very slowly heading out on to the a40. usual congestion down the botley road still, and down the abingdon road, that's nothing unusual for this time in the evening. and if you're coming in towards oxford city centre on the a40, coming in towards the headington roundabout, you'll find at the moment that it's er about a mile and a half to two miles of very slow moving traffic approaching the roundabout itself. the a415 still very heavy in both directions between abingdon and dorchester-on-the-thames, due to an earlier accident there. once again, all the routes running towards london are running normally, the m4, m40 and that stretch of the m25 in buckinghamshire and berkshire. mark newson, a a road watch. british rail tell us they've no problems or delays at the moment. on the buses, everything is running smoothly, except for buses heading down the headington road out towards the green road roundabout because of the accident there. it's 6.32. police investigating a triple murder in buckinghamshire are tonight trying to persuade a man hiding in nearby woods not to kill himself. the bodies of a couple and their teenage son were found battered to death in their beckonsfield home. gas prices are going up in march by 7.5% and the halifax building society has put up its interest rates, although first time buyers are being spared the increase. meanwhile the chancellor, john major says the gloomy news isn't over, because inflation isn't coming down as fast as he'd predicted. the unit general manager at the horton general hospital in banbury says there's no end in sight to the cash crisis which is about to affect patients. the hospital has over-spent it's budget for this financial year by £70,000. it means it will be no treatment for 150 routine patients over the next 5 weeks. that's starting on monday. last august the hospital had to close 26 beds because it couldn't afford to staff them. and shell u k will have to wait until tomorrow to hear what sentence it receives for causing a 30 mile oil slick, which polluted the river mersey. the weather in the fox f m area, well, exceptionally mild weather will continue for another 24 hours at least. tonight's going to be dry, with variable amounts of cloud, and temperatures will fall no lower than 7 degrees celsius, that's 45 degrees fahrenheit. still to come, the w i protest about food irradiation, but first, oxford teacher, chris seawright is claiming that the a v a-level exam in business studies is too easy. he says he can guarantee a student will pass after just 3 weeks cramming. chris, who runs the oxford school of learning, says he's had some students who've passed the exam in a week. i think there's two things here. if somebody studies a-level economics, then business studies a-level is quite possible within one week or two weeks tuition. and that is happening currently with people in schools in oxford, who come to me for business studies, for just about one or two weeks tuition, they then go and pass. alternatively, you can study business studies from scratch in four weeks, providing you have maths or english g c s e grade b or above. it's a fact, whether or not it seems easy depends on how it is approached, how it is taught. and remember, this is not education, this is very fast cramming. would you say that, perhaps it shows a flaw in the examination system if someone could do this? to do a-level business studies can take a year quite easily for even the averagely competent student. and yet it is the same level at the end. this would suggest that business studies, along with other subjects such as perhaps sociology and history, perhaps have to be re-evaluated, compared to other subjects such as maths and physics and chemistry. would you say that the current system is perhaps unfair, and that it should be reviewed quite urgently? well, it must be remembered that the business studies that i'm talking about is a e b, which is associated examining board. if one studies for the cambridge board, that is much harder, it is modular, it involves a project and involves a maths paper. i think it is time for people to look at again at the pass rates, the standard of teaching, the standard of students who actually do this business studies. if people can get a grade a after one week, which is what has happened, because they do economics, then the system is weak somewhere, yes. you are listening to the fox report. hundreds of members of the women's institute have been lobbying mps at westminster today over their fears about food irradiation. the protesters say they want to know more about the process, and that it's a mistake for the government to legalize irradiation without proper research. clive mirey reports: the protesters want the government to carry out more wide ranging and detailed research before food irradiation is legalized. at the moment, the technique of bombarding food with ionizing radiation, similar to x-rays, in order to kill dangerous organisms to preserve the food longer, isn't allowed. but if the government's food safety bill, which is currently before parliament gets through, the sight of food in our shops with the label ‘irradiated’ on it, will become commonplace. it's a thought that concerns mother of three, maureen gerard, a vice chairman in the women's institute: well, i'm a farmer's wife as well, and the most of the farming community don't want irradiation either. we say that if food is good and wholesome in the first place, we don't need irradiation. it is all to do with, more to do with the food hygiene and the food preparations that's causing the problems, and if that's sorted out, we don't need irradiation. we can't find anyone that wants it really, that's the question that, we can't understand who wants irradiation. well, the british nutrition foundation does. they represent the food industry, and say irradiation is perfectly safe and an excellent way of preserving food. however the protesters lobbying mps at westminster today say they're not convinced. as it is because i have always practised ordinary, normal methods of hygiene, i feel that er fresh food well cooked is not a danger to anybody. but if it had been irradiated, well, let us put it this way, i wouldn't buy food if i knew it was irradiated. if you had to give your husband or family food that was irradiated, you'd be concerned. i would most certainly be concerned. i would not do it if i had the choice. if i go to buy some fish, for instance, and it's been irradiated, it won't smell. that's very basic. er. there is a poison in potatoes that turns them green, which is very dangerous to pregnant women. and the green won't be there if it's been irradiated. so they're very ordinary signs that ordinary people can understand. that frightens me. we don't know what it can do to us, that's the worrying part. yes, things that we were told 20 years ago that were perfectly safe, it's now being proved that they're not safe. oh, i stood outside the primary school this morning and spoke to the other mothers, and none of them want anything to do with it. you know, i think that's the general feeling, we're the people that buy the food, really, women, aren't we? meanwhile the food safety bill created in the wake of the recent food scares, concerning salmonella and listeria, continues its passage through the commons. this is the fox report, it's 22 minutes to 7. still to come, a french chef, from oxford bids to become young chef of the year, and a new twist in the mystery surrounding the disappearance of band leader glen miller during the war. financial report, in association with barclay's bank, oxford's business bank. the u k stock market was in a lethargic mood today, despite an encouraging start to wall street. a few optimistic features managed to pull the footsie one hundred index out of an initial 8 point fall to end the day up 9.5 points at 2269.9 in a very quiet turn over. at five o'clock, only 396.6 million shares had been traded, and wall street stood up 22.08 points at 2605.63. sterling seemed to mirror the stock market, ending the day unchanged at $1.7145 and up 0.7 pfennig, at 2.865 dm. i c i, which many regard as a barometer for the general market, reported final figures ahead of market expectations, helping bolster market sentiment and lift the shares 14p to 1040 p. news that the french insurance giant, u a p, has been suspended until monday, pending an announcement, lifted the u k insurance sector, which has been anticipating a european bid approach for one of its companies. elsewhere, midland bank reported profits much in line with expectations, helping the shares to a 4 pence rise to 351 pence, while courtald lost 5 pence to 377 pence on concerns over their proposed textile de-merger plans. amongst the major shares today, abbey national were unchanged, at 176. british aerospace stayed at 502. british airways were up 1 at 198, b p up 2 at 341, british gas down 1 at 219, british steel up 1 at 133, british telecom up 1 at 296, rolls royce up 1 at 169 and t s b up 1 at 136. with a look at what's been happening on the sport's front today, here's andy smith: ireland's aiman darcey has broken the course record to take the lead in the dubai classic. 37 year old followed ampey's record breaking round in portugal last week by firing a record 64. that's 8 under par. australian peter o'marley set the early pace with a 4 under par 638. with the first test against the west indies just two days away, and after the humiliation suffered last summer at the hands of the aussies, in regaining the ashes, the test and county cricket board has launched a scheme of excellence so that the country's test prospects can be spotted that much earlier. the basic idea is to try and form the nucleus of england's test team, and with the players in their teenage years. with plenty of youngsters, ability already known to county and country life, it will be so much easier for england's chairman of selectors, ted dexter this time, the test and county cricket board which is really the professional armour of the game, have seen the need to combine with the national cricket association, er to streamline the opportunities for these young players. to coach them better, to give them better opportunities, to give them better opportunities to play at a higher level, to be more competitive rather earlier in their lives. ricardo betrasey and belgian tiary bootson, are testing the new formula one engine, which is being fitted exclusively to the cars of the didcot based williams team. the new engine, known as a v ten r s o two, which is lighter and smaller than its predecessor could make williams a leading force to the mcclarens this season. tragedy marred the opening race at folkestone this afternoon, when runner-up diddy seat, collapsed and died after a heart attack in the winners enclosure. the grey, trained by colin campbell, and ridden by stephen deasley, was taking part in his first race for nearly 2 years. wales have arranged a friendly against world cup qualifiers costa rica, the game, the first ever between the countries, will be played at ninion park at cardiff at the end of may. the f a saga continues for abingdon town, with their first possible entry into the sixth round still eluding them. after 4 attempts to play the 5th round tie, the match with hythe eventually went ahead last night, ending in a one all draw, so abingdon face a trip to the kent coast on monday at 7.30. french number 3 seed janek noah made an early exit from the stuttgart classic a t p tournament today, complaining he was finding it hard to stay motivated for top class tennis. the 29 year old world number 14 was convincingly beaten 6:2,6:4 by sweden's jona spenson ranked 30 places below him in the second round of the $1 million event. and schools in thame are to get more help encouraging pupils to play more football under the oxford united school community programme. it's being helped by a £1,000 donation from leyland-daf, based in thame. the money will pay for promotion material and prizes, as well as encouraging women to take up the sport. fox f m sport, andy smith reporting. you're listening to the fox report, it's a quarter to 7. a singing teacher says the problems of the world could be solved if international leaders sat peaceful and relaxed and enables you to go deeply within yourself and to feel very much in harmony with yourself with others who you do it with, and with the world in general. do you think it would help world leaders if they did some? oh, there's no question that it would. it would enable world leaders if encountering opposition world leaders to come into harmony before they started. er. it would enable them to really allow the greater selves in themselves to be the people representing their people, their country, er so it would allow them to become statesmen in a sense, you know, it would allow the wise part of them to come forth, and for them to be in harmony with each other. and it would allow them to be in tune with higher forces, and er the better principles of the world. can you really see president gorbachev and mrs thatcher chanting round a table, though? well, i think it would be a great idea, yes, i think it would be the best thing. er. you know, some pre-literate tribe somewhere, with the medicine men of the tribes meeting an opposing medicine man of a tribe, they would have done some kind of ceremony beforehand. er mrs thatcher and gorbachev don't. er. but traditionally such people would have done, er and perhaps in earlier times you know, er maybe mrs thatcher does say some prayers, i don't know, but maybe prayers would be said. and this is a way of doing it without having to, you know, log-in to er a specific tradition, but to invoke, sort of a wider, more general principles. well, there you go. now we know. the forty-five year old mystery disappearance of american band leader, glen miller, has taken a new twist. a bedfordshire housewife's memories have persuaded author martin beaumann to believe that miller was linked with a top secret propaganda campaign. in a new book, the ‘bedford triangle’, beaumann alleges that brain washing messages were sent out to german listeners in miller's radio shows. bob weinberg reports: bw: on december the 15th, 1944, captain glen miller vanished. author martin beaumann: the general legend is that he took off from twinwood's airfield, flew over the channel and was lost over the channel; his plane iced up. but there have been stories that he actually landed, bovingdon is one place that's mentioned. he got out, some the plane went on without him. there's no records actually published of the actual aircraft used. there was a missing aircraft report issued, i think about 8 days after he actually went down. now that report usually had to be filed 48 hours after he went down. 60 year old connie richards, who grew up near to the u s depot where miller was based clearly remembers meeting an american photographer at a glen miller dance. my mother used to do the washing for the americans, and er we had a photographer friend of ours that used to bring the washing-up to the house, which the story is in the book. he wanted to take me to the dance, you see. i then told him how old i was, and he thought i was older than i was, so that was the end of that relationship. er. but i did meet him down there. years later, connie was told by u s officials that her photographer friend didn't exist. i tried many many times, and hundreds and hundreds of ways to find him, and the man just doesn't exist, or i've been told he doesn't exist. but i've got a photograph of him, and i know he after the war was over he went back and married a nurse. er sent us a photograph after the war was over, but since then, since we've tried to find him, we've been told the man's never existed at all. martin beaumann believes miller's disappearance may be tied up with secret activities at the bedfordshire base. i would guess that he originally came over for morale of the troops. he then probably went into the propaganda warfare. because he did a programme actually on the b b c called the ‘vermarkt hour’, which was beamed at german troops, and then possibly the third phase was the possibly the psychological warfare. that we don't know too much about, but the assertion that one or two people have made is that his music was being used in the subliminal message under the music technique. now, after 6 years of research, beaumann believes one of the great puzzles of the second world war will never be solved. you're listening to the fox report. it's 10 minutes to 7. traffic still very busy on all major routes going out of the city, it's not as bad now, though as it was there the last time i spoke to you, but still, very very busy this evening. pear tree roundabout's still congested in all directions there, particularly heading up the a34 on the north bound carriageway. so it's still about a half a mile of very slow moving traffic approaching it. stratfield break, well, it's very busy there again, virtually bumper to bumper stuff, it's very slow moving there indeed this evening, owing to the temporary traffic lights there, and because of the road works — that's between the kidlington roundabout of course, and the banbury road roundabout. still busy coming in on the headington roundabout there, the a40 from the direction of wheatley, and continuing along down the a41 full too. as far as traffic is concerned, heading towards the capital, there's no delays there on either the m4, the m40 or the m25, at the moment. the a415, that's the abingdon ring road, that's very busy there this evening, the junction with colwell drive there's reduced (?) there because of the road works, and also very heavy traffic in both directions between abingdon and dorchester on the thames owing to an earlier accident. mark newson: a a road watch. and i've nothing adverse to report on either the buses or the trains. details have been announced for sky pageant 90, this years open day at r a f upper heyford. the event, which is set for sunday may 6th has extra significance this year, as it coincides with the 20th anniversary of the united states' twentieth tactical fighter wing being based in oxfordshire, and master sergeant bill fonten is predicting even more crowds will turn up for the day when the u s base throws open its doors. at present we're scheduled to have about 30 different aircraft that will be on static display, we will have er aircraft er upper heyford's own f1 11es performing simulated airfield attacks on the station. it's just going to be a great day for families, if you are an aircraft enthusiast, or a flying enthusiast a great fun day. what exactly will the mock attack involve. i mean, is it going to be dangerous in any way? oh, no, no. we've got to realise that there's going to families out and about, and what we'll do is the aircraft er i haven't seen the scenario on paper, but just off the top of my head, i can tell you that the aircraft will make their approaches to the base as if it were a real target. the aircraft will not be armed in any form whatsoever. our safety regulations er dictate that they be a certain distance from the crowd, so that if anything did go wrong, the aircraft would be able to er get out of the way, but no, there is not going to be any danger at all, they'll make their approaches to the base as if they were attacking, and then we'll have simulated ground bursts, a large fire as it were , on the ground, it will be going off, providing the sound effects for it, but it's going to be just a great thing to sit and watch. now, as well as actual planes flying in the skies, are there going to be anything else that people can actually feel and touch and see? yes, we'll have, at present we're scheduled to have about 30 aircraft on static display, and these are aircraft from er the third air force bases, the bases within the united kingdom, you're just about assured of being able to see an f15, up close, an f16 up close, an a 10, and some other aircraft that are stationed in and around er europe. as i said before, there's aircraft from the united kingdom. and then some nato aircraft too, of course, we're in great britain, so it wouldn't be fitting and proper if we did not have any of the aircraft from the royal air force. er. and quite possibly some non-nato this year. er. we're still in the process of finalizing everything and making invitations, or receiving answers from invitations from countries, so er it's going to be a great day! a young chef from oxford has been chosen as one of 30 top chefs to take part in the final of the young chef of the year competition. tomorrow, he's going to be travelling to birmingham to cook a meal in front of a panel of experts. tierrie molignengo, who is 23, works at the 15 north parade restaurant, and he hopes he's going to win through to the national finals which take place in april, with his menu for four, which has by the rules of the game, to cost less than £35. i've got to cook the meal in three hour and to (?) in birmingham in the college of food, and it will be (?), i think, t v i hope. so, er tell us what the menu is. i'm dying to know! my menu is (?) by a fish, a meat course and a sweet. the fish course is dover sole, souffle with morel mushroom on an orange, er the meat course is a trilogy of meat, which is beef lamb and veal, with a port sauce, and the sweet is a citrus terrine, with a mint cream sauce. have you practised this er menu? er i practised it er twice already, and i er have to do it in front of the jury. are you hopeful? do you think you're going to win? i will have some chance i think, but er everybody is quite good at this er level of the competition, because we er only 30 top chefs er selected and 2,000, which is quite good, i think. do you think being french helps? it helps maybe in this country, because france is regarded as er the best country in the world who produce good food. but what i think now is france want only french chefs, but england you have selected er sort of chef from all over the world, which is good, and we can't compete. how long have you been cooking? i've been cooking for 7 years now, including my school, my cookery school. is it something you've always wanted to do? i always want to do it, and er well, i'm a food lover if you want. and we wish him the very best of luck tomorrow in birmingham. finally a look at today's main stories once again, the unit general manager of the horton general hospital in banbury says there's no end in sight to the cash crisis which is about to affect patients in the area. the hospital's overspent its budget for this financial year by £70,000. that means there'll be no treatment for 150 patients who were expecting to have routine operations over the next 5 weeks starting from monday. and police investigating a triple murder in buckinghamshire are tonight trying to persuade a man hiding in nearby woods not to kill himself. the bodies of a couple and their teenage son were found battered to death in their beckonsfield home earlier today. and that was the news for thursday the 22nd february, 1990. join us again for another fox report tomorrow night at 6 o'clock. that will be with andy smith. the seven o'clock news, this is annie webster. police investigating a triple murder in buckinghamshire are tonight desperately trying to stop a man who's threatening to kill himself. the bodies of a couple and their 16 year old son were earlier found battered to death at beckonsfield. a 30 year old man who's a friend of the family is now threatening to hang himself in woods nearby. a neighbour of the victims, ten year old alexander ray, has seen the drama unfold: there's this man on this tree, it's about 50 feet tall, the tree, and he's er he's just crouched on there, sitting there now, with a blue rope round his neck, and it's tied on to the tree. and he said that he's threatening to jump off and er i haven't seen the bodies of the dead people though. ten year old alexander ray. gas prices are going up in march, by 7.5%. another building society, the halifax, has put up its interest rates, although first time buyers are being spared the increase, and the chancellor, john major, says the gloomy news isn't over because inflation isn't coming down as fast as he predicted. talks between ambulance management and unions to settle the 6 month old pay dispute have become bogged down, but as peter russell reports from the whitley council meeting, both sides are still cautiously optimistic. management and unions have been talking throughout the day, they may be talking into the night as well. the chief union negotiator's press secretary, lynne brian is being cautiously optimistic. well, they're in detailed discussions, and negotiations are likely to go on for some hours. have they got bogged down? i can't go into that, they're negotiating, and they'll continue to negotiate. the unions want not only a pay rise but a proper pay mechanism for the future, and that's where the talks could still fail. peter russell, i r n, at the whitley council meeting in south london. a beautician has been telling a court she thinks olympic javelin thrower, tessa sanderson, is a bitch for stealing her husband. mrs jule evans said she was devastated by the affair, she thinks her husband was mesmerised by the athlete, who he saw as the woman of his dreams. simon israel reports from the high court. mrs evans says she had no idea at the time of the nights ms sanderson and her husband derek spent together. when she did discover they were lovers, she was bitter. ‘i thought tessa was arrogant’, she said. the athlete has told the court that the evans' marriage was completely over before she became involved, but mrs evans said she had no right to comment, since she was an adulteress, she added that ms sanderson is going around schools parading before children: ‘if there's any of the children's fathers there that she fancies, will she take them’, she asked. ms sanderson is suing mirror group newspapers for stories which quoted mrs evans as accusing the athlete of being a marriage wrecker. simon israel, i r n the high court. americans will be able to make up their own minds about former ronald reagan's testimony in the trial of his former national security adviser, admiral john poindexter. video taped evidence, in which mr reagan admits he approved the covert arms for hostages operation, that became known as the iran contra affair, is to be made public by the trial judge. independent radio news. and it's just after 7.00 thursday night on fox, thank you for choosing us for tonight, now until ten. you're going to love the music. er the overnight low, 7 degrees celsius, 45 fahrenheit, friday remaining dry, cloud amounts rather variable, and we might see a little hazy sunshine as well, especially in the centre of oxford, and especially to the east as well . temperatures reaching 14 degrees, 57 fahrenheit. here we go: the 6 o'clock news, this is howard hughes, the official report into the marchioness river boat disaster is blaming the crash on the failure of the look-outs on both boats. the document which has been leaked says they didn't spot the danger in time, and the noise from the disco on the marchioness prevented the alarm being raised. it also says three earlier accidents had been largely ignored because there had been no fatalities. ian philpot, whose girlfriend was one of the 51 people who died, says transport secretary cecil parkinson must now call a public enquiry. it is no trouble now for cecil parkinson to turn round now and say ‘okay, we've made a mistake, let's have a public enquiry’. he would help the families of the bereaved immensely, and he would guarantee the future safety of people travelling on the river thames. a savage rapist who preyed on blondes is beginning a life sentence for the murder of austrailian heiress janie shepherd 13 years ago. st albans crown court heard how 50 year old david lashley raped and killed the 24 year old leaving her body dumped in the hertfordshire countryside. peter plisner reports: dubbed ‘the beast of shepherds bush’ for a string of sex attacks on blonde women in 1969, lashley expressed no emotion when the guilty verdict was read out. it took police 13 years to bring him to justice. charges were eventually brought after he confessed to fellow inmates while serving a prison term for another offence. janie vanished from west london in february 1977. it was over 3 weeks before her body was discovered dumped on wasteland in hertfordshire. janie's distraught mother angela darling explained what had been going through her mind during the case: just praying er just praying that it would happen for her. jailing him for life, the judge told lashley: ‘you are an appalling and dangerous man’. the home secretary, david waddington, has told parliament a special war crimes squad is being set up to investigate alleged atrocities committed by nazis living in britain. he made the announcement in the commons as he moved the second reading of the war crimes bill which makes prosecutions possible. a former manchester policeman jailed for 17 years for armed robbery and firearms offences has been freed by the appeal court. lord chief justice lord lane said p c tom cawley had already served 2 years for offences he certainly never committed, on fabricated evidence. the court hear how detectives bribed convicted criminals to frame p c cawley, whose conviction was declared unsafe and quashed. mr cawley says his time in jail was sheer hell. clearly i'm gratified that the appeal court has cleared my name. i have lived through a long nightmare and am shattered by what was done to me. i will have to do what i can now to pick up the threads of my life. it's bad enough to be in prison for something you haven't done, but to be in prison and to be an ex-policeman as well is er something else. first results from yesterday's elections in 5 soviet republics show reformist and separatist candidates have again done well. the 2 baltic states latvia and estonia appear to have backed lithuania's declaration of independence earlier this month. meanwhile the surprise winners of east germany's election, the conservative alliance have suffered a set-back in their plans to reunify the 2 germanies. they need the support of the social democrats who have rejected their offer to form a coalition. a coroner has warned television programmers to be more careful following the deaths of 3 young brothers trapped in a freezer. the day before benjamin and nicholas dovey and their 3 year old half brother ryan died an episode of ‘neighbours’ showed a similar incident. tony attwater reports: the south shropshire coroner, tony sibsey, said it would never be known whether the boys had watched the episode of ‘neighbours’ when a young boy got trapped in a trunk trying to hide from his father. but mr sibsey told t v programme planners to think carefully before showing scenes that might be watched by impressionable young children. a home office pathologist told the hearing that the brothers would have died within minutes after the self-locking freezer door shut on them. he recorded verdicts of accidental death and urged anyone who dumps a fridge or freezer to make sure the door hinges were smashed so the tragedy couldn't be repeated. tony attwater, i r n, shropshire. independent radio news it's monday the 19th of march 1990. first a look at some of today's main stories in a little bit more detail. the family of murdered heiress janie shepherd are celebrating tonight after waiting 13 years to see her killer put behind bars. rapist david lashley is beginning a life sentence for brutally murdering janie in the hertfordshire countryside in 1977. st albans crown court heard how 50 year old david lashley raped and killed the 24 year old after earning himself the reputation of a habitual rapist. police charged lashley after he'd confessed to fellow inmates in prison while he was serving 18 years for rape. peter plisner was in court: it took 13 years to bring lashley to justice for the murder which he committed during 10 months of liberty while on parole from prison after a string of sex attacks in 1969. at that time he was dubbed ‘the beast of shepherds bush’. the court heard how in february 1977 he'd jumped into janie's car while it was parked in west london and forced her to drive to the countryside at knife point. the barbadian-born driver was a powerfully-built body builder when he raped, murdered and mutilated the austrailian heiress. when her body was discovered on waste ground in hertfordshire her neck had been crushed with great force. the breakthrough in the case came when lashley confessed the murder to fellow inmates while still in prison. the man in charge of the hunt, superintendent ian winned, gave his reaction to the verdict after it was announced: very pleased. it's very satisfying after a very long investigation. not just by myself but by officers from hertfordshire and the metropolitain police. a lot of officers have worked very very hard on this enquiry. as time passed did you ever think you'd catch anyone for this particular crime? i was always hopeful. we never give up in any murder investigation. how many officers were working on the case at the height of its investigation? initially, in er 19 er 77 there would be a great number, but it was only 12 in recent times. was there a major breakthrough when this confession did come to light? of course it helped, yes. janie's mother, angela darling, clearly distraught, took time out to praise the police who'd worked so hard on the investigation. oh, it's er been absolutely fabulous. and we couldn't have had more support. at all. mrs darling, what was going through your mind when you were waiting for the verdict? er just praying er just praying that it would happen for her. passing sentence, the judge told lashley: ‘you are an appalling and dangerous man, and the real issue is whether the authorities can allow you your liberty in your lifetime’. the reunification of germany looks set to happen before the year is out after the conservative alliance victory. east germany's entry to the common market looks a little less certain. mrs thatcher said there'd have to be a long-term transition. subsidised goods couldn't be allowed to flood into the e e c as that would ruin western businesses. herr lothar de maiziere of the conservative alliance says he wants east-west german relations cemented soon with the introduction of the mark. former foreign secretary and s d p leader dr david owen says the election result's a personal triumph for west german chancellor helmut kohl. i think one's got to give credit where it's due. he has seen right from the start that the majority of germans wanted unification and that the pace of events was dictating a much more rapid move towards unification than most people, either inside, and certainly on the outside, had realised, and he put all his authority into the campaign, campaigned extremely effectively and has had a ringing endorsement. well obviously there is er an emotional drive for unification, but the mechanics of it are quite complicated. do you think it can be got through without too many hitches on either side? i'm absolutely convinced it can, and particularly now that you'll have a government in east germany which will be, on all the important questions, in total accord with the government in west germany. so there is now no need to have anxiety that a united germany will be neutral. it certainly will not. and it will choose to be a member of nato. that's one of the very important advantages of this election result, and personally i think the social democrats in germany made a great mistake by being equivocal on this issue. they really must realise that time and time again being equivocal on defence when you're on the left of centre means that voters somehow don't vote for you, and i think they've had to learn this lesson yet again and i only hope that by the er december elections in west germany the social democratic party who i've got a great deal of er sympathy for on most social issues will be firm and clear about a united germany not being neutral and within nato. the house of commons is debating the war crimes bill for the second time. it'll go to a free vote later this evening and if the bill is passed it'll mean prosecutions could start against at least 3 alleged war criminals almost immediately. local historian count nikolai tolstoy, who has himself given evidence in the war crimes trial of john demianuk, says he's in favour of prosecutions. but he's worried about the changes to british laws of giving evidence necessary if the bill is passed. what i find very frightening is the campaign by sir thomas hetherington in particular who erm as reported in the newspapers has said that there are er a handful, 3 or 4 people whom he has singled out, and he says the evidence is prima facie evidence against them, is so overwhelming that the law of england must be radically changed in order to bring a prosecution against them, and, as lord shawcroft said, well how, in such circumstances, could such people have a fair trial when we've had the er hetherington the former attorney general saying, in effect, we know these people are guilty, we're changing the law to prosecute them, and now you members of the jury mustn't on any account er think er in er you must judge completely impartially. you're saying that you're er fully in support of the trials of war criminals in this country as long as the evidence is good enough, as long as the evidence is convincing prima facie evidence? if it's fairly done, yes exactly. i mean for instance on the question of identification after 45 years it's very difficult, i saw that in the demianuk trial, to get satisfactory er evidence, but of course er i think british rules of evidence probably would simply mean it was excluded if that was the case, and it was fairly done and the law weren't changed and it was the law as it stands er then i'd be in favour of it. you're listening to the fox report. it's 11 minutes past 6. i'm jane markham. still to come: alternatives to the poll tax. a local tory euro mp says european taxation systems should have been looked at. and on the day that a massive increase in registered drug addicts is announced, we look at the situation in the fox f m area. local news now, here's robin powell: oxford crown court's been hearing how a british airways stewardess from thame was threatened with death when she tried to end an affair with her boyfriend. the jury heard how lynn harding of glenholme road in thame decided to end her affair with nustafa assin who also works for british airways and lives in watford. when miss harding decided to end the 18 month relationship assin wrote her letters and poems and when these failed the prosecution alleged he made a phone call and threatened to kill her. miss harding told the jury she was so frightened by the call she immediately rang the police fearing assin had become unbalanced. the trial continues tomorrow. a leading brewery in the fox f m area has confirmed it's to offer financial help to pub managers faced with high poll tax bills. but the majority of pub landlords and landladies look unlikely to receive similar treatment. jane markham reports: morrells brewery says it's planning to offer managers at its pubs extra cash to cover the tax which is due to be introduced in just over a fortnight's time, but the oxford-based firm says it'll only pay the equivalent of the initial government estimates for the charge, which in most cases falls well below the actual figure. the brewery insists, however, that pub managers won't be out of pocket. the situation for tenants remains the same with many facing bills up to double last year's rates demand. businesses in the area are being advised to make sure their accounts are up to date before tough new rules on vat come into force. from april 1st anyone found not to have followed guidelines on making vat claims and payments will be liable to a penalty that could cost them and extra 30% plus interest on any unpaid tax. doug gordon from accountants grant thornton says even ignorance of the new laws won't make a difference. the problem can be quite severe, er we've had a number of penalties introduced by customs and excise over the last few years but what we're going to see from the 1st april in this year is interest being charged on overdue moneys paid to customs and excise and also a penalty charged where people make a mistake on their vat returns, even where they make those mistakes quite innocently. police have recovered the body of a 21 year old abingdon man who leapt into the river thames 5 weeks ago. members of the thames valley underwater search unit retrieved the body of christopher snuggs just north of culham lock. 2 men sacked from oxford-based printers nuffield press have settled the case with their former employers. bob redman and peter stanborough, both members of printing union the national graphical association, were to ask for reinstatement at an industrial tribunal in reading this morning after being sacked for refusing to sign new contracts. but the 2 men are reported to have settled amicably with the robert maxwell-owned printers. oxford united player les philips has been banned from driving for 3 years by magistrates in banbury after being found guilty of drink driving. philips was also ordered to pay a fine of 250 pounds. the charge relates to an incident in february when he was stopped by police near middle barton. a proposed rail link between oxford, aylesbury and milton keynes has moved a step nearer reality this afternoon with the decision by buckinghamshire county council to invest in the project. the council has agreed to a request from british rail for financial help for the scheme. eleven middle managers in the health service in the oxford region are among the first to take part in a new management training programme. ‘managing health services’ is a management development programme arranged jointly by the n h s training authority, the institute of health service management and the open university. the first tutorial was on saturday and someone who hopes to get something out of the course over the next 6 months is assistant medical administrator in oxford claire flanagan. it's really good because management's the same no matter where it is, but in the health service there are sometimes specific problems and this course is geared to people working in the health service and that can only be a good thing. and what i'm going to get out of it, well i hope it's a step towards me obtaining a degree at the open university and hopefully i can get promotion eventually. fox f m news. robin powell reporting. it's 17 minutes past 6. a local euro mp says the government should have looked more closely at its european neighbours before introducing the poll tax. in just over 2 weeks bills for the charge will start dropping on doormats across oxfordshire and buckinghamshire and the tory euro mp for the wantage area, dr caroline jackson, thinks more time could have been set aside by officials at the department of the environment to look at alternatives. well i think any change from one system, a total system like rates, to another total system like the community charge er would have given rise to misgivings. i mean, the real problem is that the rating system is out of date, it's based on a rating valuation which was last updated in 1973 and hasn't been updated since. consequently people are comparing the community charge which they've got on their hands now er with an out of date rating system and they should probably add about 200 pounds to the rates they're paying in order to get a better comparison. er. but i also think that er the community charge as it is being brought in is probably being brought in too sharply which means that it isn't actually taking account of some of the marginal cases where people are going to face a very steep increase in community charge bill, er and the community charge itself is rather a blunt instrument. i think that if we'd been looking for some rather more er refined instruments of taxation, i nearly said torture, er from the continent then we might have looked er and found some rather better means of getting local money in to finance local government. do you think that there's any scope for perhaps going down that road in the future? well i think what people have said to me very often about the community charge is that they can see the er they can see the point of having a community charge which everybody pays and which actually brings in to the local taxation system the hundreds of thousands of people who were previously not paying any rates at all but were benefiting from local services. the difficulty is that the community charge is insensitive to people's ability to pay and i would like to have seen er some people go rather more into the possibility of a local income tax. this is the fox report. the nationwide protest against the poll tax has taken on historic proportions. yesterday hundreds of demonstrators marched on downing street following the same route as those in the peasant's revolt which forced england's leaders to drop plans for a similar tax. that was more than 500 years ago. graham magin reports: the peasant's revolt ended at the tower of london. yesterday's march, organised by the borough of newham, went to the tower too, but there were speeches not executions. however, local mp tony banks says they wanted to get across the same message. it really isn't surprising that we're following their footsteps because the only way in the end to get anything done in this country is to protest about it because this government seems to be totally oblivious to rules of natural justice or decency. the only thing they'll understand are people out on the streets demonstrating. and that's what they're going to get. fellow mp nigel spearing agrees about the historical significance of the route. that's right, and it's no coincidence because people in the east of london on the whole get it in the neck whatever happens, and particularly with this government. so we're showing it in a peaceful way because in the end of course we can destroy by the ballot and not the bullet. about 200 joined the march along the mile end road. many said they were there simply because they wouldn't be able to pay. i'm a one-parent family, i've got 2 children, there is no way i can afford to pay er the poll tax. it's very difficult now with all the other cutbacks, i just don't know how i'm going to manage and whether or not i'll have a roof over my head by the end of the year or what will be happening. and i'm not the only one, there's lots of other one-parents. unlike some poll tax demonstrations, this one passed off without any violence, protestors were satisfied with handing in a petition to mrs thatcher's front door. mr banks says they were warmly received: she gave us an iou for three million pounds and told us to get lost. what you'd expect. yes, get back to newham you working class layabouts, she said. typical what you'd expect from the prime minister. whether mrs thatcher really was at home no-one quite seemed to know. there's been a massive increase in the number of registered drug addicts in britain. latest figures show a 17% rise. many of the new addicts are on crack. graham magin has this report: no-one disputes that the real number of drug users is much higher than the official figure. it's estimated there are 150,000 addicts in the country as oppose to the 16,000 who have registered. home office minister david mellor says the fact that the official figure is starting to catch up shows that more people are coming forward for help. we've made a determined effort to try to get more er drug addicts to come forward, to accept treatment and so on. we still fall well short of that, i mean er it's bad news that anyone is addicted to drugs but what is important is that we should actually know who is and so we can help them. so in a way i welcome the fact that these figures bear a little more relationship to the real situation er than last year's did, but we're still a long way short of knowing exactly what's going on. another worrying figure is the increase in the use of the so-called killer drug crack. it's cocaine use generally that troubles us. of course er crack is just a form of cocaine, the worst form of cocaine. but, you know, the real enemy is cocaine. but certainly it appears that around 1 in 10 of the seizures of cocaine in britain now is in the form of crack. er. of course if you smoke cocaine as crack it's a much more potent way of taking the drug. and obviously we are troubled at the experience in america on cocaine and want to try and make sure that we don't get that kind of problem in the u k. the government's soon to host an international summit on drugs. mr mellor says they're doing everything they can. you're listening to the fox report. to coincide with these worrying figures, oxfordshire health authority and oxfordshire county council's social services department have published a report by the n h s drug advisory service. nick welsh is from the social services and rosalind green is the drug service coordinator in the county. rosalind, what is the situation in the fox f m area? in oxfordshire with regard to drug misuse, well, as it says in this report er the main drug of misuse is alcohol, and we also have quite a problem with minor tranquillizer dependents. er. in terms of illicit drug use, cannabis remains the most er available drug and the most used drug, but having said that it doesn't present us with problems to the service. we get one or two people who perhaps get er psychosis or paranoia from using it very regularly, but most people seem to be able to use it without too many difficulties, er amphetamines are probably the next most common drug, and that's probably because it's manufactured quite locally, er it's quite easy to make, it's quite cheap, and it's very popular, particularly among the younger age group. what we are concerned about though is the amount of injecting that goes on and obviously the sharing of needles and syringes because of the risks of h i v, the aids virus, and of course other health risks like hepatitis and abscesses er septicaemia, whatever. er. heroin is still er quite available in oxfordshire, and tends to be injected more than smoked or sniffed, so that's another area for concern. now are you seeing the increase that the national statistics are suggesting in this area? er no. we're not. i think what those statistics indicate is that more people are being notified to the home office and that may well be that doctors are more aware of the need to notify. er. these figures have always traditionally been very unreliable, but i'm hoping that it also might indicate that across the country and also in oxfordshire we are developing what we call out-reach services and the idea is for people to get in contact with drug users who probably don't want a lot of the time to stop using drugs. they may not be looking for treatment or rehabilitation but er what we can offer them is clean injecting equipment er free condoms, because h i v is transmitted sexually as well, probably more than, more often than in oxfordshire, er and also we have been prescribing from an assessment clinic in the city centre. so even people who don't want to stop using drugs can actually have a healthier drug-using lifestyle through contact with us. now that sort of policy does have its problems because some people would say that is allowing people to break the law, it's turning a blind eye to people who are breaking the law. well, we understand that conflict, er but basically, at government level, it's been determined that er the risks and the dangers of h i v the aids virus is actually more er more dangerous to society and the individual than drug misuse itself. now nick what er can the social services department do about the problem in the area? well we've been very concerned to try and develop our policies and services and we find this report very helpful because it has given us a very clear lead as to the sort of things which are necessary, and in many ways it's supporting the ideas which we've had. er. we've been concerned on the aids-h i v front to try and develop home helps, home care services, and to get more social work help in with the general medical services that deal with these er diseases. er. on the level of er drugs and alcohol though we're concerned to provide more social work time and support for the voluntary er agencies that are working in this field and also to provide direct services to people who are using drugs. er. they have a lot of family problems, a lot of other personal social problems, and it's very important to see really the person as a whole and not just a focus on one particular aspect of their problems. so that's really what the social services department is trying to do. do you think enough is being done? well of course, no, i mean more can be done all the time er clearly there are some quite difficult areas about priority and where people would choose to invest their money, but certainly in the long run aids h i v is a crucial issue facing society, drugs misuse or drugs use is an absolutely integral part of that whole problem. it's 6.31. the official report into the marchioness river boat disaster is blaming the crash on the failure of the look-outs on both craft. the document which has been leaked, says they didn't spot the danger in time and the noise from the disco on board the marchioness prevented the alarm being raised. a rapist who preyed on blonde women is starting a life sentence for the murder of austrailian heiress janie shepherd 13 years ago. st albans crown court heard how 50 year old david lashley raped and killed the 24 year old, confessing to fellow inmates while in prison on a previous rape sentence. home secretary david waddington has told parliament a special war crimes squad is being set up to investigate alleged atrocities committed by nazis living in britain. he made the announcement in the commons as he moved the second reading of the war crimes bill which makes prosecutions possible. a coroner in shropshire has warned t v producers to be more careful following the deaths of 3 young brothers trapped in a freezer. the day before benjamin and nicholas dovey and their 3 year old half brother ryan died an episode of ‘neighbours’ showed a similar incident. the weather for the area: the rain's going to clear in the middle to late evening, and that's going to be a dry night with cloud becoming broken. the lowest overnight temperatures are going to be around 5 degrees celsius, that's 41 degrees fahrenheit. still to come the future of the jet project at culham. first, the royal national institute for the blind is launching a wide-ranging attack on the government's student loans bill. it's due to receive its second reading in the committee stage of the house of lords today. gary o'donaghue who's a blind student preparing to finish his final year at christ church in oxford says the government's plan will cause havoc if it's given the go-ahead. it looks like that not really a great deal of account has been taken of the extra costs that are incurred by visually handicapped people in courses of study, such as paying for er expensive, extremely expensive, computing equipment which isn't a luxury, it's a necessity quite often for many people, especially doing science courses. and other costs, such as readers and having to buy books because you can't borrow them for long enough from libraries to get them recorded or brailled, er those sorts of things really aren't taken account of and you're simply going to have to borrow money er to pay for your disability in effect. does it surprise you that the government seemingly has got into a rather insensitive and delicate position over this? well, i mean, it's a sticky wicket for them anyway politically and i suspect as with a lot of legislation quite recently they simply haven't spent the time in committee and in consultation to iron out the details and they've come unstuck when it's come into the public domain and it's been easy for people to throw up the paradoxes that are coming up from the legislation, the moral paradoxes. and so yes i don't think, there doesn't, there wasn't a great deal of consultation before the bill was published with representatives of sort of disabled students and that sort of thing, so in a sense they've reaped what the've sowed. meanwhile, higher education minister and local mp robert jackson has revealed that the government is to offer disabled students extra benefits. the measures to be outlined in the lords later on where the student loans bill is at committee stage will mean they'll be entitled to claim housing and unemployment benefits which others can no longer claim. the student loans is going to replace entitlements to housing benefit and social security for er students but not for disabled students. so disabled students will continue to get all their benefits and will get the loan on top of that. they will be the only category of students, the disabled students, who actually have loan in addition to benefit, so the loan is going to provide considerably more money for disabled students while they're studying. er. i don't know whether that is widely understood but i think it's quite and important feature of our proposals. nevertheless it is still a loan that of course has to be repaid. is it perhaps not more difficult for a disabled student even with a degree to get employment in order to be able to repay that loan? yes, i think there is a fair point there but er i don't know whether you listeners appreciate that nobody at all, whether disabled or not will have to repay the student loan after they've graduated if their income is below 85% of the national average wage, which is currently 11,500 pounds, er we are recognising that they do face some additional costs er when they've graduated and that should be taken into account and that will be one of the things in our concession. but like all students, disabled students will benefit from being able to defer payments if their income falls below 11,500 pounds. rebel forces in ethiopia have given permission for tons of food to be taken to thousands of starving people on the edge of death in the famine-hit country. a group of aid agencies and churches have banded together and succeeded in getting the cooperation of the rebels and the government in the long running civil war. before, vital food supplies weren't allowed through by the rebels and the people were left to die. jodie bordan from christian aid says thousands of lives will be saved. a colleague from christian aid phoned me from addis ababa last night and he reported what had happened in the red sea port of assab on saturday which was when 15 trucks and trailers were loaded each with 22 tons of u n grain and there was a little ceremony as they left at 12 noon for desai. those trucks belong to the joint relief partnership which is a grouping of 3 church agencies — the ethiopian orthodox church, the ethiopian catholic secretariat and the protestant church there. and it is that grouping, the j r p, that have got agreement between the ethiopian government and the tigre people's liberation front to move food for the first time from the ethiopian government areas into the areas controlled by the tigre people's liberation front. now, it's obviously very good news that all this aid, that is there it's just not getting to the people that need it, that it is now on the move but it isn't as simple as that is it? it's going to be a really tortuous journey. no those 15 trucks and trailers will move from assab to desai and they should arrive in dessi this morning, and then in desai they'll have to be transferred to er a certain amount of food to smaller trucks, and we think that the first group of trucks will be just perhaps 5 trucks that will really test the road from desai up to waldia in the area controlled by the rebels to see if there really is a safe passage agreement and to see if er there are bridges out on that road or whether there are land mines left on the road, to see if it is actually possible to move food across those lines. the people involved in taking those trucks are taking quite a risk are they not? yes, but the churches are quite convinced that they have got the tigre people's liberation front's agreement to it, and that there will be no harassment from their side. everybody is very concerned to actually get food to people who are really absolutely desperate now. two local mps are keen to see the jet project at culham extended for a further 4 years. about 200 scientists are working on the project which is hoping to develop an alternative energy source which would use nuclear fusion. work is guaranteed there until 1992, but it's hoped that the experiments will now continue until 1996. spokesman for jet john maples say although there's no immediate threat to jobs he's pleased that michael heseltine and john patten have spoken up in culham's favour. the jet project is formally er continuing until the end of 1992 but in recent months we've had some very great successes in jet, the work we've done is of very high quality and, and certainly world leading, and we can see the way ahead to building an experimental reactor after jet but there are some very important experiments that need to be done before then. and jet is about the only machine in the world capable of really tackling these problems. so we've therefore put some proposals through to the commission of european communities, which eventually will go to the council of ministers to extend jet's experimental programme into the end of 1996. and on friday of last week we had vice president pandolfi from the commission here and he was very impressed with our work and we are therefore very hopeful, very optimistic that our work will continue until at least 1996. but obviously the support of these mps and m e ps is certainly welcome then? we are very grateful for their support and their continued interest in our programme and i think they were er conscious of the fact that vice president pandolfi was coming here and so they have contacted him saying how essential they think it is that the work should continue here. still to come: who needs god? and charlbury's station master gives a few tips on how to become station master of the year. the day's sport. oxford united's new er 150,000 pound signing from doncaster rovers, les robinson, will be eligible to play in wednesday's home fixture against leicester city, providing the proposed fee is received by the football league by wednesday morning. les, who spent his first training session er in oxford, spoke to mickey unotta afterwards. well, it's a lovely place. i enjoy training and nice set-up. i enjoyed it. now can you tell us a bit about yourself? now you're a versatile player. that's right. i started off playing mid-field er and i was switched to full-back by billy bremner at doncaster half way through this season, and i been playing full-back since like. still with football, news just in: millwall have signed the norwich city striker malcolm allen for 400,000 pounds. the weather has already struck the oxford cheetahs. their challenge meeting away to wolverhampton this evening has been rained off. the cheetahs lost 47 to 43 at bellevue over the weekend, but despite that defeat hundreds of supporters turned up to see world cup er world champion hans nielsen in training last night relieved and smiling that their hero was staying in oxford. well, including mine. i mean i'm very pleased that i'm staying with oxford. i've been very happy with oxford the last 6 year i've been racing for them. and the supporters been treating me well, the promotion been treating me well, so obviously i never really wanted to move but we had a few problems with the negotiating with the contract and the financial terms wasn't quite right so but i'm glad to say we've got it right now and you know we both sort of gave a bit and we came to a settlement er which i'm very pleased about. and you had a good ride over the weekend as well at bellevue? yeah, not too bad. we er we got very close to beating bellevue at bellevue which was okay i mean everybody's a bit rusty so and we were experimenting with tyres and everything and er it was only a challenge, but it was nice to get the first meeting on the way and er i was very impressed by some of er the team members of what i saw, i knew er team mate dean bargger was doing particularly well scoring 11 points and er he's really a promising er youngster which i think we can get a lot of use out of, and er in general i mean you know ellis stevens was doing particularly well as well , so if those two can keep doing well during the season, then okay mine had a few problems, she only scored 3 points, but that was just a one-off so yeah i thing we look quite strong on paper again now. the west midlands has hauled a seven and a half ton truck from great ormond street hospital to birmingham children's hospital to raise money. the burleigh group set off from london on friday morning and they're hoping their efforts have raised up to a million pounds for the 2 hospitals. fund-raising organiser anton stewart says they proved a lot of people wrong. a lot of people said no it can't be done, it's a total impossibility, but er basically we've hacked it, so we feel good about it, very good. the only thing is now er the reason we've done this is because the hospital that we're standing outside now is er desperately in need of another operating theatre and in addition to that there's a tremendous amount of work needs to be done at great ormond street hospital. frankly there just isn't the money to go around, and kids are being made to suffer for long periods of time er for operations which really could be done if only they had the money. therefore we er we needed to do something that stands out from the crowd if you like to bring this to people's attention. 122 miles you've just pushed this seven and a half ton truck i believe yet what was the one moment that really stood out or really got you going? okay, well the first, the first moment was definitely st albans. er there is a hill in st albans, i think it's called er st peter's church hill, and it is very, very severe to say the least, and everybody said to us ‘oh you're going up the hill? forget it’ the a a said, ‘forget it’the police said, ‘forget it’, everybody in the town said ‘forget it, it's hard enough to walk up’and we took the truck up at a bloody run. so er you know that's another thing that we hacked. and quite a few blisters bursting out all over as they say. er yeah, only a lot, only a lot, er but it was worth it. some guys aren't going to be able to walk for a week — they've got tattered feet, but er nobody begrudges it, nobody begrudges it at all. you're listening to the fox report. it's 11 minutes to 7 the long arm of the law is reaching a bit too close for comfort if you're taken short in sunny singapore. the authorities there are so obsessed they've already got toilet detectives ready to pounce on and arrest anyone who doesn't treat public conveniences with respect. now they've even topped that by installing special censors inside lavatory bowls which detect whether the user has flushed the loo. as di webster reports from singapore, if you don't flush you're in hot water. music to the ears of singapore's environment ministry. but it's a tune authorities are apparently not hearing enough. the government last year announced that those who forget to flush public toilets will be fined up to 500 u s dollars. toilet detectives were stationed at strategic points around the city to nab offenders. maybe it wasn't the most satisfying job in the world but the men on loo patrol will no doubt be distressed to hear they're being replaced by a machine. unflushed toilets are already setting off censor-operated devices in the environment ministry building and some of singapore's open air sewage centres. authorities are remaining tight-lipped about how the censors operate. perhaps, say some observers, they follow the same principle as the elevator urine detector now in widespread use throughout the country. singaporeans caught short in the lift are electronically locked in until the police arrive. lift urinators are not penalised under the non-flushing law. government controlled straits times newspaper last year ran as an invaluable community service its own toilets of shame campaign listing each day the country's most offensive loos. singapore has long been known for its campaigns against littering, smoking, spitting and jay-walking, but it may be the only place in the world trying to toilet train an entire nation. ‘who needs god?’ that's the title of a new book which is already a best-seller in the united states. it's written by rabbi harold kushner who comes from massachusetts. he's been visiting oxford to promote his book and he hopes he won't just be preaching to the converted. no i especially hope it will be read by sceptics, by people who have grown up with a kind of psychologically inspired dismissal of religion, people who've become so sophisticated, so busy they have no time for it, people who are so bemused by technology, by the greatness of human achievement, the computers, the moon rockets, the medical advances, that in their worship of human talent they forget that there's a point where human power ends and the power of god begins. you are a rabbi. have you written it totally from a jewish perspective or are you aiming at a wider cross-section of the population? well both jane. i er i can only write it from a jewish perspective, it's the perspective i stand at, but it seems to me that beyond a few superficialities there is no such thing as jewish spiritual truth any more than there is jewish mathematical truth. human nature is the same. human beings have certain needs, certain problems, and i think that all religions in their own way have found ways of coping with those problems as different languages may differ grammatically, and they're all trying to help people do the same thing. the basis of the book is that we are unfulfilled because we've grown too sophisticated for god, we're lonely, we're morally confused, and i think god is the answer for this, it fashions, religion fashions the kind of community in which you're redeemed from loneliness, it gives you the sense that when you come close to the end of your life you don't have to panic that you have wasted your life because religion can show you that you have made a difference to the world. oscar wilde once said something marvellous, he said ‘the nicest feeling in the world is to do a good deed anonymously and have somebody find out’ er i believe from a religious perspective that every good deed i know somebody finds out and that it's, it's not really lost. er we are living in a very sophisticated time, how can you, how can you make people see things more simply? well i'm not sure it's simple, it's a way of getting back to eternal verities. all i can do is offer them personal witness, and not just me. but i would say to each of your listeners i sure you know people who find a tranquility, a centredness, a source of strength and confidence in their religious faith, they are the representatives of what religion can do, not the ayatollahs, and not the fanatics, and not the people on television, but the people who spend their lives trying to be good and helpful, and one day they'll look around and realise that happiness has snuck in the back door when they weren't even looking for it. those are the people we ought to emulate. you're listening to the fox report. british rail's superstaff awards are to be presented in may and the transport user's consultative committee is taking nominations for the most customer care conscious employee. last year the award was won by ernie acker at charlbury station, and we asked him what he thought of the awards. well i felt very honoured that er that people should recognise er the fact that you know you did the job and they enjoyed coming down here to travel from charlbury. but nothing, i didn't do anything different really, it wasn't anything exceptional really, it's just i think people really want to er be treated properly and er and then get the service that they're looking for, basically speaking that's right. so what was involved? did you have to go, did you have to go and meet the chairman of british rail? oh no no, nothing quite like that. the local manager came down, the provincial manager, and er made the award or was present when the award was made by the t u c c, and er a presentation was, took place on the platform, and er my wife and i had a weekend, we er we er, we had a weekend in er in york. what did the wife think? very nice, yes, she thought it was great, yeah. so, do you treat her differently? oh, ah, that's the problem see, yeah, she thinks that i charm people down here and er leave it all down the station. so you have to watch it at home? oh that's right, yeah, yeah. so, what's you're secret then ernie? well i haven't got one really, no, no. it's nothing, this is the way i deal with it, if i treat this job, if i go in to a shop or ask for any service i expect, you know, the same that i give, and basically speaking then i'm pleased. and if i don't get that then well it's depressing because it's great to be treated as a person when you go into, in those places, and that's really what i do. so how do you manage to be cheerful all the time, even when the weather's like this? oh, i do have our off days. so do you get on well with the passengers? ah yeah, er they're great. they are. i think people will respond if you treat them properly. and have you got any message for this year's winner? well, i would suppose that the person they're looking for is similar in character,but if they're going to er if they're looking for that person i think they've just got to act normally, and it's not a one-off thing, i think it's built up over the years. and that was the fox report for monday the 19th of march 1990. i don't know whether he'll win the award again, we shall have to wait and find out until may. it's 25 minutes past 6. a national report by the second largest teaching union says its members are being increasingly driven to drink and drugs because of stress. the n a s u w t says about a quarter of its teachers face problems brought on by poor pay and extra responsibilities. john hollis is a member of the union's national executive and the representative covering the fox f m area. mr hollis says the figures nationally are bourne out locally and he says he's not surprised by the findings in the report. the government's own team have recognised that morale in teaching is low and that the position this year is significantly worse than last, yet the government have for this year ignored the findings of that particular report and it's all tied up with the whole issue of pay, workload etc.. it may be that the government has a proportion of the blame but you're not surely condoning teachers who have these problems being up in front of children in the classroom? well i don't, you see this is where i think it's been sensationalised. i don't think for one minute that there are teachers who are drunk in charge of children in the classroom. i don't think that there are teachers who pop out to the staffroom for the odd fix of some hard drug. but what i do think occurs, and this is bourne out er in my own case, i mean i'm extremely reluctant to go into my staffroom simply because of the amount of smoking which goes on there. i'm a non-smoker but er colleagues who do smoke seem to be smoking more than they did before. now that's not particularly sensational, and that's where the drugs and the alcohol abuse level comes across, and that is the emotive term, but what i'm saying really is the symptoms which that teachers are displaying of stress manifest themselves in an increase in er abuse of alcohol which could only be the odd extra drink, or the odd 5 cigarettes a day, and sleeping tablets, and that becomes an issue when you haven't got a teacher who's not in control the following day, but you certainly have a teacher who's not 100%, and that's where the effect on the child tends to occur. you're listening to the fox report. the last and perhaps the most potent symbol of the division between east and west germany is due to be demolished. checkpoint charlie, the crossing point set up in the early 1960s between east and west berlin is to be opened to millions of people on wednesday. the tory party's prospective candidate for oxford east, mark mayall, is in the city. he says berliners are now counting down to the historic moment. well i think it's very significant. we're seeing the end of a long period of cold war which effectively the west have won because they have kept their defences up, er and i think as tom king, he was out here last week, has said we need to keep a strong force here to make sure that the soviets keep their side of the bargain and er start a withdrawal at some stage. don't you think it's a little unrealistic now that the british aren't thinking more in concrete terms of bringing troops back home from germany? well i think that that may come, er certainly there are already rumours about that. i think it would be a great error to start major troop withdrawals at this stage until we're very sure about what's happening in russia, and indeed the state of east berlin and east germany. do you think there's a danger that the west could undermine gorbachev's position particularly with the delicate situation over lithuania, if it's not prepared to support moves to try and get tension reduced between the two blocks? well i think that we have shown that we're prepared to support gorbachev in so far as er peace reform in the soviet union, but i think we've got to look towards our own security in the west and we've done very well with nato, with the defensive block nato over the last 40 years or so, and until we can have cast iron guarantees that gorbachev is going to be secure and that he's actually going to carry out his promises we've got to keep our guard up. prisoners still controlling part of the riot-torn strangeways prison in manchester have raised a banner on the roof of the accommodation block saying ‘no dead’. more than 100 prisoners are still on the loose in 5 wings of the jail though police and warders today regained control of some sections including the remand block. home secretary david waddington has been speaking of his sense of outrage at saturday's trafalgar square riots saying it brought some of the most ferocious violence ever seen on to the streets of london. he said the savage and barbaric acts could be blamed on a hard core of trouble makers. an earth tremor measuring 5.2 on the richter scale has shaken a large part of britain including oxfordshire, causing people to flee their homes as chimneys collapsed and windows cracked. the worst hit areas were in north wales, the north west and the midlands, although no-one's been hurt in the mini quake which was felt in districts as far apart as devon and scotland. the government's hinting it could cut defence spending because of a reduced threat from eastern europe. in a white paper defence secretary tom king says spending over the next 3 years will rise by only 1.2% and after that it could fall. however he says while everyone welcomes the changes in eastern europe, the west shouldn't get complacent. still to come: plans for a new swimming pool in didcot, and job prospects at the newly united culham and harwell laboratories. first, a new initiative aimed at giving practical support to east european young business people and politicians is being launched today under the patronage of oxford university's chancellor and other prominent political leaders. 100 work placements will be provided in british businesses and political organisations for czechs, poles, hungarians and east germans under the age of 35. chairman of the initiative danny finkelstein says the people involved range across the whole political spectrum. we've got all the political parties involved. not only have we got young people from all the political parties involved, but we've also got sir geoffrey howe, john smith, david owen, lord jenkins, in other words one senior representative from each of the major political parties has agreed to be a patron er so that shows that it is a cross-party initiative. and you don't anticipate any wrangling. well, we haven't had a single row er between the political parties or between the young people involved so far. there's a tremendous er community of purpose amongst the groups, we've very much enjoyed working together, it's been one of the most fun things i've done in politics, er and i think that all the other young people on the committee agree. what's in it for the businesses? what's in it for the businesses is this: at the moment they can see eastern europe as an emerging market, but it's very difficult to get in there because the hard cash and the skills that they need don't exist in those countries, but they want to do something, they want to demonstrate their interest, they want to make contact, and what enterprise europe gives them is the opportunity to make a good business contact amongst one the young generation of er of business leaders in those countries er in order, and keep those contacts in order that when they do have an opportunity to go into those markets they've got some young people there to start off with. harwell laboratories says there's no need to worry about the possibility of job losses as a result of this weekend's merger with culham laboratory. 150 people finished work there on friday but harwell spokesman nick hants says there are always jobs for qualified scientists and that harwell is actually taking more people on. he's been telling fox f m's robin powell that most of the job losses have already occurred. we have announced a number of job losses over the past 12 months which have arisen as a result of er an internal cost cutting exercise to make our research more er cost effective, and also as a result of decisions by the government and the electricity supply industry who have cut down their funding for basic research into reactor technology. the numbers involved are about 700 and most of these job losses have now happened and indeed the bulk of them happened on the last friday of the financial year which was last week when about 150 people took early retirement. so how many more jobs will be going from now on? i'm not sure of the exact figures but we have not declared any more than the 700 that we've er announced in the last 12 months. most of these have now taken retirement, there are a few more to go, er but we are still recruiting specialists in the areas where we have work and where there are plenty of jobs going, so it's not all bad news. 150 went on friday. is it with any sadness that culham and harwell have seen these people go? yes, it's always sad to say farewell to colleagues that have been with you for a number of years, but all things have to come to an end, we say farewell with sadness and er fond memories to those who've been with us for so long, but we welcome all those who are joining us and we can promise them a thriving future. you're listening to the fox report. people in didcot could be getting a new swimming pool. it's estimated that it would cost around 3 1/2 million pounds, and south oxfordshire district councillors will need to discuss the possibility tomorrow. a working party's recommending that the existing outdoor pool at edmunds park should be shut and that an indoor one should be opened to replace it. ian gill, who's a labour member on the council representing the didcot area and on the working party, says he's confidant about the outcome. well i think there's every chance that it will get the go-ahead er i mean obviously er there are money restraints but i'm sure that the district council will be able to come up with the appropriate amount. er as you know, it's been bandied around that there's the possibility that it could cost in the region of 3 to 3 1/2 million pounds, and obviously that's down to the rate payer. is that value for money? yes, it is value for money. er. i mean we've er the working party's actually been around the country looking at various other swimming pools in the areas and er just to get an idea on what we thought didcot would really like. er. and obviously we've come up with a plan which i hope that didcot people would enjoy. are you confident the facility will be used? oh yes, yes, highly confident. why's that? well, it's something er i mean obviously a lot of people like the idea of going over to the swindon oasis, now er we've had at the back of our minds, if it was at all possible to er put something similar at didcot, obviously nothing as grand as the oasis, but something quite similar, and obviously they would come to didcot and not bother to go over to swindon. still to come: rambling through oxfordshire, and ‘noises off’ in banbury. the summer arrived at the weekend. i'm not sure where it's gone today, but for the energetic a new book of oxfordshire rambles has just arrived in the bookshop. nick channer has put together 14 country walks. nick, a ramble sounds a rather pleasant little loiter round oxfordshire, how, how severe are these rambles you've put together? they're not really severe at all, i mean, they're very much intended for, you know, the weekend er type of people, you know, somebody that just wants to get out on a sunday afternoon with the children. they're not intended for the dedicated hiker. now this isn't the first book you've put together of this sort is it? no, i've had 2 other books published er previously by the same publishers, er one was in berkshire, one was in hampshire, very much along the same sort of lines, er i think the longest walk i did probably would be about sort of 7 or 8 miles with those, er just as, you know, er the walks in, in, in this particular book are no more than 7 or 8 miles. so, you're not totally local to oxfordshire, how did you set about deciding where your walks would be, what you'd do? well, after the er publishers had approached me and, and asked me if i would be interested in doing this book er the next thing to do was actually get hold of all the ordinance survey maps for oxfordshire, er you know, quite a big county, so er once we'd done that er the next thing to do was to actually just work out exactly where we wanted the walks to be, and they've obviously, for commercial reasons they've got to be fairly evenly spread throughout the county, but you can tell quite quickly and quite easily by looking at an ordinance survey map, you know, where all the paths are, they're all clearly marked, er public footpaths, public bridleways, that sort of thing, and the next step was to actually create from the maps, circular walks to fit in with the requirement. did you try out more walks than you eventually used? er only a couple. i was very pleased er when i came to put the book together to find that er most of er most of the actual walks corresponded with what was on the paper, which was nice, so i didn't have to waste much time. you've got all sorts of detail in the books, little historical facts and things i mean, that takes a bit of research to find out these things? yes, i mean that's something that i enjoy doing, it's, it's quite a lot of fun in, in, in, in, coming to, to actually research each walk afterwards, er one for example, the rollright stones up on the warwickshire border, that was particularly interesting because there's quite a, quite a legend surrounding the stones up there, er then there's one at er a place called hampton gay just off the banbury road, the midlands-north railway line er goes quite close to the village of hampton gay, and towards the end of the last century there was a major railway disaster on that track killing about er 30 people i think, er so, you know, things like that which are perhaps not er that well known, you, you, you stumble across when you come to do the research. yes, people love a sense of the macabre, don't they. is it er adds to the atmosphere. is there a serious point behind these rambles at all, i mean, or is it just for fun? not a particularly, er well no they're not, they're not just for fun, i mean, but there isn't a particularly serious point. what i'm, what i'm trying to do is, is just er highlight er paths where they are, and, and, and drawing people's attention to er to, to rights of way in the county, er obviously a lot of people probably wouldn't be, maybe people that've just moved into the area, that sort of thing, people like myself who weren't too familiar with oxfordshire before, er those sort of people probably wouldn't be aware without a book like this that there were a lot of paths on their doorstep, and some very pleasant countryside as well. do you have a favourite amongst the 14? er i've got several favourites, er the one at thrupp, hampton gay which i mentioned, where the train disaster was, that's a particularly nice one because it's along very nice stretches of canal and river, i like the one er up at er the rollright stones, and, and i like the ones in the chilterns as well, there's a couple in the chilterns, one at er watlington hill, just outside the town of watlington, and er one which goes through the grounds of stonor park, but er superb scenery up there obviously with the beech woods and so on . nick channer, thank you very much indeed. thank you. on wednesday the banbury cross players take to the boards with michael frayn's hit comedy ‘noises off’. it ran for 6 years in london's west end and is still being performed professionally. the banbury company is one of the first amateur groups to be allowed to get to grips with it. it also marks director tony neil's 25th production for the banbury cross players. i asked him a little bit more about the play. it's about a professional company, theatrical company, not of the best, who is embarking on a tour of weston-super-mare, goole and stockton-on-tees. now why those places should be funny, and we have to apologise to all the people who live there, but it does sound funny, and they er they just er the trials and tribulations they have when their own rather complex personal lives get mixed up with the play they're doing. the play that they're doing is a play called ‘nothing on’ and has all the horrors you might think of a play with that title. now you've been doing this for 25 years, that's quite a long stint isn't it? well, well, more than that. this is the 25th production. my first production was in 1959, so er it's more than 25 years. what was that? that was a short play by john mortimer called ‘what shall we tell caroline?’. have you ever been tempted to go professional? no not really. i've now retired but i was a lawyer, a solicitor, and er i enjoyed doing that and er when i was a lot younger i had lots of er friends who er were all interested in the theatre, and some of them went into it professionally and some er some stuck with the amateur world as i did. but the ones who went into it professionally, i see them often on the telly advertising things and i don't really want to do that. so, when is it all happening, when can we come and see it? it starts on wednesday, and, you know, i'm taking time off from searching for props at the last minute and dress rehearsing to come and talk to you. it's all very much on the go at the moment. yes, i'm very impressed 'cos these things always get rather fraught nearer the end. ah yes, this one's been, we've all been very organised on this, you know, so it's been better than most, but, 'cos er you were, er you've seen it and your listeners who've seen it will know it's a very complex play, so it's made us get more disciplined to start with. it must be quite an interesting thing to rehearse because you're rehearsing a play about the back-stage life of another play, it's almost like a mirror and a mirror and a mirror that's right, and, and the first act of the play is a rehearsal and it keeps stopping and the director keeps sort of straightening them out and they're dealing with little problems, and when you're actually rehearsing it you find yourself sort of repeating the play because it's so ac michael frayn who wrote it has so accurately observed what happens er when you're directing a play that er you find yourself re-enacting the play and, and suddenly find a discussion you've just been having has part sounds as if it's come out of the script. the london marathon approaches, would you believe, and one of those who'll be taking part is clive guthrie from bicester. it's the first time he'll have run a full marathon, but he's jogged into fox f m this evening. clive, why on earth did you decide to do this? well, like i say, it's not erm an ambition really of mine it's a challenge of a lifetime because i've never liked running and i decided that as i started running two years ago that er the marathon was the ultimate, and as it's the ultimate challenge i thought what i'm asking and why i've asked to come in to fox f m is to er ask the businesses of bicester to help me er raise money for the er bicester health centre, and also for the bible school boys sponsoring me. i'm sending this letter out er to every business that i can possibly get one round to. yes, i've heard that you've been doing more than sending it out, you've actually been taking it personally haven't you? yes, my employer offered to er you know send this letter, the postage and everything, i said no, you know, if you help me i'll er run round put these letters through the letter boxes it'll, you know, assist me in my training, and if, you know, if i'm successful in raising over 500 pounds those funds will go to the bible school for the mentally handicapped and children with learning difficulties. have you had any response from any of these people yet? yes i have, i mean, firstly my colleagues have been very supportive, and my company, sea search editions, but the er local businesses, the other local businesses have started to respond and although i've only put, i've got piles of envelopes at home to deliver still, i am getting some success, i'm rapidly getting near that 512 pounds. oh well that's not bad, so the jogging has served a double purpose so far, or i shouldn't call it jogging really, it's training isn't it? well yes, training, i mean it's more of a jog, i've had a little injury problem with a knee, but er like i say er, it really is a challenge and i'm not going to let anything get in my way. i'm having physiotherapy as well at the moment. any of my old school friends in wallingford that know me er well they'll just never believe that i can run 26 miles because i don't know if when you were at school, but when er when we used to have a cross-country run i was the one at the back and usually the p e instructor used to go round and whack us with a slipper, you know the slow ones and i was unfortunately one of those, but er now i've been running with the bicester road runners for what 2 years, er half, i've done a few half marathons, nothing anywhere near 26 miles, i've, my furthest run until yesterday was 16 miles, and yesterday, injured, with a bandage round my knee, i managed 18 miles, and i'm pleased to say it's still holding out and i'm quietly confident that i'm going to complete this, and like i say, if i can er well, just get the local businesses in bicester interested and to support me, i say however small, just a, you know, if they, a penny a mile from just a few of the businesses in bicester and, well, the bible school could have, you know, a few pounds coming to them, which i'm sure they'd be, you know, greatly received. you sound as if you're a bit of a masochist really after all this. well, crazy, i suppose i'm crazy, i've always thought runners were crazy, i've always, you know, said friends and colleagues that used to run were mad, it only started off to get fit for skiing, and well, i hit, you know, i've got the bug, and er well it's going to be my first marathon and it's definitely going to be my last marathon. so you've made, you've done 18 miles, now, erm you've got another what 8 miles to stick on the top of that. are you er convinced that you're going to make it? i'm absolutely positive i'm going to make it. i mean, now i've got several hundred pounds resting on it if i have to walk in the last few miles i will, but er pride i'm sure i'll keep going. well, we wish you all the best. how many, how long is it till the marathon now? it's well just under 3 weeks now. well, in those 3 weeks i hope you er leap ahead in your er training, and er let us know how you get on. will do. thank you very much jane. tonight, lord scarman hears the first submissions to the independent enquiry into the future of rover at cowley. our job is to listen to everybody, and in the end find some formulation of some policy which the council can adopt to deal with the problem. douglas herd on the importance of english in eastern europe: our aim, ladies and gentlemen, is to replace russian with english as the second language throughout eastern europe. and also on the programme, rainbow's jeffery, bungle, zippy and george visit oxford after 18 years together. it's a strange sort of er family really; a hippopotamus, and a bear, and a zip. the 6 o'clock news, this is annie webster. customs officers have revealed that company officials from sheffield forgemasters are among those arrested today over the iraqi supergun affair. senior staff from a midland steel firm are also being questioned over an alleged attempt to illegally export the huge weapon. james matthews reports: a swoop by customs officers has netted up to 15 people so far. a number of others are still being held for questioning. the operation follows the seizure at fort of supergun parts bound for iraq. those detained include at least one senior member of staff from sheffield forgemasters. a designer with the company has already appeared in court in connection with the affair. three officials with the firm walter summers, based near birmingham, are also being questioned. it has supplied a with equipment, its engineers believe may have been used to make the supergun. president bush is to visit lithuania to get a first-hand report on the situation in the rebel baltic republic. the white-house says the meeting on thursday with the country's prime minister doesn't signal a change in u s foreign policy. meanwhile president gorbachev has been booed and jeered out of red square today during the first may day parade not controlled by the communist party. there was a noisy popular march through the square with demonstrators calling for freedom for lithuania. from moscow, sue jameson: ‘freedom for lithuania’ shouted the demonstrators, many of whom carried the yellow, red and green national flag of the republic as they marched past morsoleum. the president and his aides watched tight-lipped while the television coverage ended abruptly about 15 minutes into the unofficial march. some carried painted blood-stained banners denouncing the party, and cried ‘shame, shame’. today's radically different may day parade means the communist party domination of the event is clearly at an end. sue jameson, i r n, moscow. mrs thatcher and neil kinnock have clashed in the commons over the poll tax, but there's still no word from the government on how or when it might soften the tax. reports: mrs thatcher told m p's that the government was looking at possible adjustments in the community charge. ‘will you change it in this parliament?’ said neil kinnock. ‘when in fact we have a statement to make we shall make it .’ ‘we'll certainly have more details than you have given about the roof tax’ she said. the labour leader told her that no matter what changes she had in mind, nothing would make the poll tax fair. ‘it must be got rid of even if it means that the prime minister goes down with her own flagship’. it was a good knock about but no-one is any the wiser at the end of it. i r n, westminster. defence secretary, tom king, is denying that britain's shackleton early warning planes have been grounded because of a technical fault. ten r a f crewmen were killed yesterday when one of the shackleton's crashed into a hillside in the outer hebrides. the r a f says its other shackletons aren't flying today, but mr king says that's out of respect for the dead crewmen, not because of any technical problems. a high court judge has halted the trial of two veteran peace campaigners accused of springing soviet spy george blake from prison in 1966. in an unprecedented legal move, mr justice hodgson ordered a judicial review of the case to decide if michael randall and pat pottall should stand trial. from the high court, simon israel: it's the first time the high court has stopped a criminal trial from going ahead. it was due to start tomorrow. the two men argued that's it's an abuse of the legal process for the case to come to court 24 years after they allegedly helped the soviet double agent escape from wormwood scrubs, but mr randall has mixed feelings about their victory. my feelings are ambiguous about it. we would really like to see this thing over and done with one way or another, and to be able to put our case. both are pessimistic about the outcome of any review and could face a maximum of 7 years in jail if found guilty at a future trial. simon israel, i r n, the high court. a jury has decided that a man accused of going on a shooting rampage at a seaside town in which 1 person died and 17 were injured, is mentally unfit to stand trial. newcastle crown court had earlier heard that robert sartan suffers from acute schizophrenia. sartan was arrested after the shootings after the shootings at whitley bay in tyne and wear last year. a former swindon town football manager, lou macarr, is being questioned by police in bristol about an alleged plot to defraud the inland revenue. club captain, collin cauldewood, former accountant, vince farrow, and former chairman, brian hillier, were also arrested. independent radio news. it's tuesday may 1st, mayday 1990. first a look at some of today's main stories in a little bit more detail. thousands of soviet radicals have jeered and booed president gorbachev in red square during the first non-communist mayday celebrations. there were incredible scenes with people shouting ‘shame’ and ‘down with the empire of red fascism’. reporting from moscow, sue jameson: well we started off traditionally enough except it was distinctly in low key. departure indeed from last year where the official parade went on for around 2 hours and there was really very little hint of even a bit of descent. well this year all that has changed quite dramatically. not totally unexpectedly though. the official parade was cut back to just under an hour and it was preceded by speeches from workers and politicians. and after that came this unofficial parade organized by trade unions and also, moscow voting associations, so we had this peculiar spectacle of this radical mayor of moscow, newly elected gavrielle popov, standing up there, shoulder to shoulder with president gorbachev and yigor ligicharf and er defence minister, mick dimitriargo, amongst others. well after the official parade. the unofficial parade started to come through. we'd been told there would be no anti-constitutional slogans or ones that er that called for violence of any kind. however what happened instead was the cat-calls and the boos and the jeers started almost as soon as this procession came came into red square, and there were plenty of banners calling for freedom for lithuania, there were cries of ‘shame, shame’. many carried the red, yellow and green banners; the national flag colours of lithuania. and president gorbachev stood up there for about 15 minutes or so before the television pictures were cut. they really only showed the official part of today's procession and cut it pretty speedily, in fact as the more alarmist banners started to come into view. president gorbachev then left, as the boos and hisses reached the podium, but in fact it isn't absolutely clear that he was only going to stay for part of the demonstration, or if he was only going to stay for part of the demonstration or if he really was only going to be there for about 20 minutes. you're listening to the fox report. the cause of the plane crash in the outer hebrides yesterday which killed the ten-man crew of and r a f shackleton aircraft, may never be fully known for the plane is too old to be fitted with a black box flight recorder. a board of enquiries begun its investigations into the tragedy on the isle of harris. reporting, mark leashman: it's become apparent that had the plane been a few feet higher it would have hill. it crashed into the peak and flipped over, although the tail section is recognisable, wreckage is scattered down the hill over a wide area. people in nearby northern village, felt their homes shake. alexei campbell says he knew the plane was in trouble: it kind of sounded like a car with no exhaust, you know, but much, much louder, you know. and so you opened the window to have a look and what happened then? well i couldn't see anything, er because there was a lot of cloud, and then i just heard this sort of bang, and then it was just silent. flying officer, alan watt, who was one of the rescuing team, was one of the first men on the scene. he realized some of his best friends were among the men dead on the ground. well obviously it's er really hard-going when it's you're own people from your own station, er very er close station and obviously we know a lot of people er who have been involved in the accident, but the moral of the men is excellent. they just want to get the job done then? basically we want to do the job as fast as possible, and er our feelings are for the people back at . an r a f enquiry team is now sifting through the wreckage. they could be there a week. the men are undertaking their grim task in blazing hot sun, but the weather is far removed from their mood. you're listening to the fox report. local government minister, david hunt, met tory councillors in the trouble-torn west oxfordshire constituency today in an attempt to some of the fears surrounding the poll tax. two months ago, 18 disillusioned conservative councillors left the party in mid-concern over the combined affects of the poll tax and reinforced rise in council rents. at the witney conservative club, mr hunt explained why he made the trip down to oxfordshire: well it's part of er nationwide tour i've been making, putting across the message that if you're fortunate enough to have a conservative council, it costs you much less money. if you've got a labour or s l d council, it costs you a lot more money. what i am seeking to do is to go and support conservative candidates up and down the country and i'm supporting many of them during this local election campaign. what do you think of those resignations though? well i was very sad about them at the time and if you may remember, i did say publicly er that i very much hoped the conservatives would think again and rejoin the conservative party. since then i'm very pleased that two of them have done so, and i very much hope that the others will as well and i've always made it clear i'm perfectly prepared to explain any situation to any council or councillors who want to talk to me — my door is always open. do you think though, perhaps you could have done more to keep them in the party? i don't know, they didn't ask to see me before they made this decision. it may well be that some of them regret having made the decision. as far as i'm concerned, i would ignore that er i'm perfectly prepared to talk to anybody who wants to talk to me and to explain why, certainly in west oxfordshire, the problems are caused by an over-spending labour/s l d county council that accounts for 90% of the . west oxfordshire accounts for just 10% and west oxfordshire has always been a prudent careful council, and if oxfordshire followed west oxfordshire's policy, then the community charge would be very considerably less than it is under labour/s l d over-spending policies. but also, city councillors have said, in oxford, the safety nets put £50.00 on the top of the poll tax bill there. what do you think of that? i think there's some misunderstanding about the safety net. for many years there's been what's called the ‘rate equalization subsidy’ which has gone from areas of high rateable value to areas of low rateable value such as the middle of lancashire — central lancashire, and other parts of the country. with the move to the new system, we're abolishing that subsidy, but we're doing it in two goes: 50% of it this year and all of it will go next year. now some people call it a contribution to the safety net. what it is actually, is about half the subsidy being phased out in these two goes. you're listening to the fox report. it's 11 minutes past 6. traffic's still very busy at the moment, and all the major routes leading out of oxford and oxford city centre still busy. abingdon, aylesbury not so bad now, but do watch out for traffic on the a34; that's still pretty busy there. a41 that's also busy and the a40. m4, that's pretty busy too, although traffic is slowly starting to ease up along there. ascott, there's a race meeting there tonight and the police tell me that it's chock-a-block, so obviously try to avoid that if you can. in reading, wokingham road, that route is closed because of a fractured gas main and it's gonna be closed until about 8 ‘o clock this evening. got to find an alternative route around there. a34, there are road works at the cheavley interchange, that's junction 13 of the m4, and that is causing delays in both directions but nothing too bad. the a43 to northampton, that's busy at the moment but nothing untoward. the a34, oxford/woodstock, that's the luke farm roundabout. grapes roundabout at yarnton, busy there but no major problems. the banbury inner relief road; various restrictions for road works on the junction of the a41 and the a422. so allow a little extra time for your journey there. this is joanne zorin, a a roadwatch. british rail tell us that the scotland to brighton train which is due to call at oxford at 5.35 is running 2 hours late this evening, but i have nothing to report to you from the buses. still to come a look at the opening shots in the independent enquiry into the fate of rover's cowley works and the questions that bicester's friends of the earth say you must ask any candidate in the local elections. first a look at today's local news, here's robin powell. oxford east m p, andrew smith, has challenged mrs thatcher over the poll tax in prime minister's question time today. mr smith asked her to outline the government's plans for the community charge and whether she took responsibility for the effects of the tax: does the prime minister accept responsibility for the chaos and confusion at the heart of governments over the poll tax? doesn't she owe it to this house and to the people before they vote on thursday, to give a straight answer to a straight question: what precisely is she going to do about the poll tax? meanwhile oxford against the poll tax is holding a meeting tonight. speakers of the meeting in the northgate hall in st michael's street will include the city councillor for south ward, john tanner, who stated that he will not pay the tax. david scholls acting secretary of the organization says the meeting will help focus action: it's basically going to be on the poll tax in the elections and how oxford against the poll tax sort of considers to be the most important element sort of determining people's decision when they go in to vote on thursday. we will hopefully be informing people about oxford against the poll tax, which is you know very important at this time with poll tax bills being sent out next week and it will be hoping to basically raise the profile of the campaign with the elections in mind. two men have been arrested following a break-in at the kenton theatre in new street, henley at lunch time. the two are being held in custody at reading police station. a cyclist has been taken to oxford's john radcliffe hospital after an accident on the a423, north of kidlington this afternoon. he is believed to have collided with a lorry near the wise alderman pub and the ambulance service is asking parents to warn their children about the dangers of climbing trees. the plea came after a child broke his leg after falling out of a tree at st john's school in cherwell heights in banbury. fire crews have been tackling a blaze at a company in the old station yard at bicester. an acre of grassland and 100 railway sleepers caught fire but now have been put out, however the rest of the building is understood to be on fire. the new headquarters of the actuarial education service have been officially opened by the lord mayor of oxford. the service has been relocated from london to mafier house in worcester street. spokesman ken gardiner says oxford was the natural choice. first of all it's a very civilized place to live, which is not an overriding factor, but it certainly pleases me. also, we are an academic institution and oxford's reputation as an academic town is of course unique. there also is the possibility in the future of combining with the university. and finally a 40 strong choral group from oxford have been singing their hearts out today in a bid to win a place in a national competition. the teenagers from cherwell school are up against some stiff competition from 11 other schools in the regional final of a national choral event being held at the wytham theatre in swindon, and although confident they'll do well, choir mistress, anna haxworth isn't assuming her score will win a place in the london final next month. depends on what the competition is like. we're a school choir — if there are many youth choirs, who can draw from several schools around the area there then the chances of our getting anywhere are slim but if it's large school choirs then i think we probably do stand a fair chance. fox f m news, robin powell reporting. it's 17 minutes past 6. the independent enquiry into the proposed closure of rover's cowley works is now underway. public hearings are being held in oxford town hall for the next 3 days, chaired by the industrial relations expert, lord mccarthy of headington. it's thought that up to 10,000 jobs could be lost if british aerospace close the plant. rover has provided written evidence for the enquiry but won't be represented at the hearings. steve wright reports: the enquiry is backed by the city council and other local groups. it's expected to look at the affect of the closure and what can be done about it. although rover will not be represented at the hearings, chairman lord mccarthy says the enquiry is valid. our job is to listen to everybody, not just rover, but everybody; the unions, the city council and in the end, find some formulation of some policy which the council can adopt to deal with the problem. the first speaker, canon ron mitchinson, industrial commissioner for the of oxford, says he's concerned about the effects on the families involved. the way the work-force has been treated over the last few years, the uncertainty that's been created and the lack of consultation, the impact on their lives of such a closure on people who have been expecting to be there until they retire — their jobs may well go, and the impact on that, both for their own lives as well as their families. many city councillors are involved in the campaign to prevent the closure. it's not clear what notice will be taken on the results of the enquiry which will be published in the autumn, but leader of oxford city council, barbara gatehouse, is worried what will happen if the plant is closed. i think it'll have drastic effects on the life of oxford and the quality of life for the people that live in it. the hearings will continue all week with various bodies represented including the university and oxfordshire health authority. john power is chairman of the planning committee on oxford city council, he was at the enquiry today. john, what was discussed on this the first day? well i think you've heard some of it already in your programme, but in the afternoon session which was extremely interesting, the city council and oxford university and the vale of white horse district council and west oxfordshire district council have jointly financed some major research for independent research bodies and that research was put forward yesterday, this afternoon rather, to the panel, and it concerned the economic order, social order and what should come next and so on and so forth, and those academically research papers, not politically prejudiced papers, showed that there would be a loss of 6,150 jobs if these plans went ahead, with an estimated loss to the oxford economy of between 8 and 17 million pounds a year. so it's an impact outside of just closing down the car factory, and on the question of the effects on the community. the conclusions of one other major research was that it had substantial social implication of personal family in community lives so these papers were discussed in great detail. many questions were asked on these papers by the panel, and the other thing that i thought was very revealing, is one point that i've been hammering away at, is the fact that they actually produced these figures for u k car registrations over the last 10 years, 10 years ago there were one and a half million, last year there were nearly 2 and a half million. i mean — it's almost a 60% increase in the market over the last 10 years and that market is growing and here we have the one and only major car company owned by the british being threatened with closure when all the japanese and the germans and the french and the americans are trying to expand to meet this growing market and it doesn't make sense and that point came out very very strongly this afternoon. we're not dealing with an old dying structure industry like the steel industry or coal, we're dealing with a mass consumer industry with high technology and in the middle; in our town we have british rover closing a company which was financed for 14 years by public money; by public of this town paying their taxes to keep that company going and now in the middle of a massive boom for cars they want to propose closure and that point was dramatically highlighted this afternoon. why do you think rover has chosen not to appear in person? because they've got something to hide, that's why. because i have on good information and i'll say it for the first time on this programme, i intend to give this in my evidence tomorrow, that rover intend to close not the south works first, but the north works first. the north works will close first in order that they can put his whole assembly process over in the body plant and that has major implications. they've something to hide which is why they won't turn up and indeed they did submit, they have submitted er as a mission to the structure plan; try to get the county council on their side. the structure plan is essentially about where jobs and housing should be, not what sort of jobs and housing, and they've made this submission to the structure plan. they could have easily made that to us the local planners who have to determine what kind of jobs go where and we could have discussed it with them. they have something to hide. and the other reason they don't want to turn up is primarily because they do know that we have compulsory purchase powers and the planning — the paper put forward by the chief planning officer today was a vindication of wage for a good many years, a good many months rather, that we do have compulsory purchase powers and we are able to use them and it was specifically asked at the panel today, by both monty finnist and sir monty finnist and tony christopher, why doesn't the city council market this site and use its compulsory purchase powers and that's one question to address tomorrow as a politician who could make that decision. now there are 3 days of the enquiry, what do you think will come out of? well, one thing i think will come out of it is that the enquiry will say that this closure will have fairly cataclysmic affects on the economy of this city, i think that's clear, and i think that will come out of it. in the paper prepared by the trade union research project which the panel considered, they outline 5 options, one is a new model, two is a switch to high technology industry and the panel will come up and say well they either support one or two or three of these options and then the council will have to consider which of the options they adopt, and then have to consider what their planning powers are in relation to it. but it must become clear, i'll make this point clearly to the taxpayers and the people who live in this city, it must become clear, at some point this company must talk to this planning authority. john powell, thank you very much. how the devil are you? er looking a little grey around the wallet. why not have a free financial health check from abbey properties, eynsham. as a pointed representative introduces of allied dunbar, their resident representative will look at the mortgage, pension and insurance you've accumulated over the years and sniff out the costs, sneezes and snivels that could be costly. britain credit details from abbey properties, eynsham on oxford 880697. call in at abbey street, eynsham for a free financial health check. your home is at risk if you do not keep up payments on a mortgage or other loans secured on it. the language barrier lesson 1: how to ask for motoring assistance in french. r a c correct, and now in german. r a c right again. if you let the r a c sort out your motoring insurance holiday, they'll book the best ferry crossing, fix your accommodation and ensure you're looked after if you run into any difficulties. so let's recap in french, spanish, italian, german r a c word perfect. visit the r a c offices in summertown or call oxford 53443. it's twenty five minutes past six. foreign secretary and mp for witney, douglas herd, wants english to be the second language in eastern europe rather than russian. on his trip to poland he's announced britain will be giving £400,000 towards training so that poles can become english language teachers. mr herd says that the people of eastern europe are crying out to learn english. our aim, ladies and gentlemen, is to replace russian with english as the second language throughout eastern europe. that is our aim and it is the aim of the government's and i believe the people's in the countries which i have visited and certainly here. the british council is well known here and already has a substantial programme. mr chadwick is here to answer any questions about it. i can announce today, a new scheme of the know how fund on top of the ordinary british council programme to help poland on the ambitious polish aim of achieving 20,000 new english language teachers by the year 2,000, and as a contribution; as a help, an immediate help to that scheme er we; the know how fund will provide on top of the british council programme £400,000 for the teacher training colleges in poland. i can announce the second scheme on the industrial side; a joint scheme financed by the cbi (confederation of british industry). british firms and her majesty's government. this is for 300 man years of training; industrial training beginning with 60 managers; polish managers training this year alone. you're listening to the fox report. voters in the city of oxford, cherwell and west oxfordshire will be going to the polls on thursday to elect 50 district councillors. bicester friends of the earth who describe themselves as politically neutral are trying to encourage all the parties to improve their green records. they have come up with a list of questions to ask candidates when the come canvassing to your door to check how green they are. catherine beader from bicester friends of the earth, what are these questions, what should you ask? well we have 5 questions er i'll go through them if you like. the first one: do you use public transport and do you promote it? we're asking the councillors if they actually get out of their cars and get on buses and travel to and from council meetings and er shopping, that sort of thing for public transport. er the second one: do you promote recycling and do you use recycled products? there are a lot of ways that er both the councillors can get into the habit and recycling is quite habit forming of recycling and from that er home use of recycling they will learn that there is a lot of products they can use in their councils; recycled plastic makes very good er roadside signs that don't rust and don't need painting. number three, do you encourage energy efficiency in your home and in the work place? er becoming aware energy efficiency at home turning down the heat so that we don't live in a it's hardly appropriate today is it?— er we don't live in hothouses: spins off from their place of work, and if they're being energy efficient at work, they're being energy efficient with our money. number four, do you avoid tropical hard woods and are you aware of the variety of alternatives?; there's huge alternatives to tropical hard wood er again recycled plastic makes a very good alternative to er tubs for plants in the public er parks. number five, what are you and your family doing to protect the environment? what we're really asking voters to do is ask searching questions of their candidates to really find out how they feel and how they personally feel about the environment and how that spin-off would become part of their council thinking. now there are other issues involved in this elections. er if they don't give you what you consider to be the right answer to those questions, are you saying that you should totally disregard the other issues that are well no, voting is when somebody goes to the polling booth they have to weigh all the pro's and cons of all the information that they've been told. we're asking that you test the temperature of your politicians that offer themselves up to stand on the councils, and we believe that being a good environmentalist aids all of their political life and er saving the environment now will save money in the future. i would think all political parties realise the value of greenness, er have you been canvassed yet, have you had to try out any of these questions? well actually the ward that i live in, we're not having an election but there are in the bicester area electors, so i haven't actually been approached. er sorry i forgot the question you were going to ask. sorry i asked if you'd been approached, so you've answered that. no i haven't been approached, but obviously the candidates are going around asking people and i would like them to ask them. er how the candidates feel really about environmental issues, there's a lot of lip service paid to environmentalism er popping green petrol in your car is not the way to save the planet, it helps but it's not the only answer. there are a lot of ways. only ‘cause looking at your first question: do you use public transport or do you promote it — there are of course all sorts of arguments sort of for and against that sort of scheme that people have to use their cars. they have to for some journeys yes, but there are a lot of alternatives and i think if the councillors were actually to rely more on public transport they maybe would feel more comfortable about putting subsidies into buses instead of subsidies into car parks. in the centre of bicester we have a car park that is subsidised. er perhaps if they took that off and subsidised the buses then er it would be a little happier for people travelling to bicester. confuseurs say many hands make light work, i say feros lighting, banbury make light work; make little joke. absolutely. at feros lighting, parsons street, banbury, you'll not only see the largest selection of domestic lighting in the area, they can also advise you on the best way to light your office, so if it's one lightbulb, your whole home or a complete office, for the complete look go to feros lighting in parsons street, banbury. it's spar 8 till late week. until the 7th may there's lots more happening at your 8 till late. lots of big savings, lots of fun. buy the daily mirror every day except sunday and get money off coupons on popular products. take them along that night between 8.00 and 10.00 to your local spar 8 till late and enjoy the savings. they'll be fun too for all the family. the kids will love the free balloons, hats and badges. you'll enjoy the advantages of britain's most local and convenient stores with opening hours that suit you and a huge range of all the products you'll need. we'll be open late, so don't miss out on the savings. the traffic is very slowly starting to ease up now. oxford city centre getting a little bit easier and abingdon, aylesbury; no problems to report there. m40, east and west bound; no problems reported, no serious delays. the m4; the same. a34; do watch out for that problems at yarnton where they're re-surfacing but no reported problems though it might just cause you a little bit of delay. there are road works at cheavely interchange junction 13 of the m4 and that is gonna cause just a little bit of delay, it was a bit chock-a-block earlier er that was during the rush-hour but it should be easing up. it's affecting traffic in both directions. in reading, wokingham road is still closed and is likely to remain so until 8 o'clock this evening, and ascott race meeting; still lots of traffic around that area. if you know that you can avoid that then you're advised to do so. the a43; still running well to northampton. banbury in the relief road; no problems reported there but do take care as you approach the road works at the junction of the a41 and the a422. this is joanne zorin, a a roadwatch. british rail tell us that the train that should arrive at oxford at 5.35 from scotland is going to be two hours late this evening but i've no problems to report to you from any of the bus companies locally. it's 6.33. customs officers have revealed that company officials from sheffield forgemasters are among those arrested today over the iraqi supergun affair. senior staff from a midlands steel firm are also being questioned over an alleged attempt to illegally export the huge weapon. president bush is to visit lithuania to get a first-hand report on the situation in the rebel baltic republic. the whitehouse says the meeting on thursday with the country's prime minister doesn't signal a change in u s foreign policy. president gorbachev's been facing his worst mayday parade and the first one not to be completely controlled by the communist party. he was jeered and booed out of red square by angry demonstrators demanding freedom for lithuania and an end to communist domination elsewhere. a high court judge has halted the trial of two veteran peace campaigners accused of springing soviet spy, george blake from prison in 1966. in an unprecedented legal move, mr justice hodgson ordered a a judicial view of the case to decide if michael randall and pat potell should stand trial. the weather; it'll be a warm and sunny evening. the night'll be dry with clear skies, however it's gonna tend to become rather misty during the early hours possibly with the odd patch of fog around dawn, especially in the banbury area. lowest temperature; 9 degrees celsius with light winds. a local animal rescue worker is calling for people in the fox f m area to lobby his m p's or her m p's in an effort to bring about a dog registration scheme. last night, a move to introduce such a scheme was defeated by just a dozen votes. organizations like the r s p c a say they're disappointed but promise to continue their battle for a scheme to be introduced. they claim thousands of dogs are currently having to be put down after being found wandering on the streets around the country. albert honey, who works for thames valley police, agrees and thinks the regions m p's should be made more aware of the problem. i know that the r s p c a will be campaigning vigorously to get this through parliament. the only thing that i would ask everybody in oxfordshire is to write to our m p's here because er yes it's true that i don't know what the returns are from last night's voting, but i do know that er the only local mp that i can see on the voting on the last occasion was john patten, here in abingdon, and he voted no. er. an r s p c a inspector, chris simpson and myself had an audience with the then home secretary, douglas herd, last august. er we both met him to try and make a plea to him to try and change his views and it's fair to say that he doesn't know or didn't know what was going on in his own backyard and john patten i feel is the same as is the rest of the m p's in the oxfordshire area. they do not realise what is going on in their own backyard. once and if they learnt of what was going on in their own backgardens, they may change their views. so i would urge everybody in oxfordshire that our responsible dog owners (because that's the only people that are going to help this campaign) is to write to their m p's so that we can stamp out and take away the mess that their in with stray dogs because we are in a mess. you're listening to the fox report. st. tiggywinkles in aylesbury, the hospital for sick animals, has been awarded at the title of lauriot in the international 1990 rolex awards for enterprise. it's actually been given to les stocker who runs st tiggywinkles. i've always loved the name les, where did it come from? it was just out of the blue really. after beatrix potter's mrs tiggwinkle and er the st bartholomew's and st thomas's hospitals for humans, why not st tiggwinkles for old hedgehogs. well congratulations on your award. thank you. what did you win it for? it's the title on the , it's for establishing europe's first wildlife teaching hospital which is what we're building at haddenham pretty shortly. so you're even more like st thomas's in that case. yes, yes, yes. it'll be much nicer though. it'll be a hottish hospital. so who will you be teaching? well it's to teach everybody really about caring for wildlife. nobody really knows anything about it. er what we've learnt over the last 12/13 years is that there is no records of wildlife care. we've learnt a lot er and people can come along to the hospital for courses for various standards of course to learn the techniques we've learnt and we can learn off them. you know, it'll be er people er r s p c a inspectors, vets, whoever you know, anyboday that wants to come really. what sort of techniques are we talking about? well just the sheer handling of for instance hedgehogs. i mean i get phone calls everyday all day long from vets who are saying i've got this prickly ball, what the hell do i do with it, you see, and i can explain to them how to try and unroll a hedgehog and then what to do when you get inside the hedgehog. you know this sort of thing and all british wildlife has got its own little characters, every species is different er and you know thousands of animals we've taken in over the years we've just learnt different things about different animals that suit different animals. what sort of animals? i mean hedgehogs obviously, but what other animals have you given help. well for instance deer are a classic. we are getting a load of deer at the moment. we've discovered that if you don't give — when a deer comes in; a road casualty or anything, we don't give them a massive shot of steroids, it'll die, so we can advise people giving them massive shot of steroids and er the deer live then you can start worrying about his injuries erm baby birds; there's classic ways of rearing baby birds which are very, very important at the moment 'cause there's thousands of them around. er we learnt from america that er a lot of birds that have been caught by cats, die, and everybody's always assumed it's shock but the americans were doing some tests and they found it's septicaemia from the cat's teeth. so we can now advise people that if they take a bird in that's been injured by a cat, they give it a shot of antibiotics — great, cures the septicaemia. all little things like that, you know little tips. still to come a look at the day's financial news and er sports news. starting with the sport, oxford united manager, brian horton is confident his side can end the season on a high note. away to beaten littlewoods cup finalists oldham athletic tonight. micky yornutta is not so sure, so he asked brian what exactly he expects from his side and brian, as ever, decided not to sit on the fence, but the main concern being for his side to pass the ball as opposed to kicking it, but first brian says that long ball to john durnin is all wrong. but there's times when we can go say from our middle third dink over the top for john durnin. that's where he grabbed the ball. he ran off side 7 times in the night. 7 times. he should run off side once and if he gets caught, he should be able to run across the line and get to . i'm not being critical of him, i'm just saying now that he's got to pick his time to go over the top. there's times when he can go over the top. the ball from gascgoine to ball the other night when he scored his great goal was a little dink just over the top, outside of his fort and it was a little one over the top of there wasn't it? one touch in the net. that's a clever ball over the top. not a great big 60-odd ball that is gonna be straight on the centre of the z. that ain't over the top that's — that's a crap ball. get back to playing it, get back to playing it smartly, look for mid-field players first before you're gonna clonk that ball, that's your last option. if mid-field players are on it, give it to him. if the wing is on, give it to him. if mark stitton's onto his feet, give it to him. your last option, if everything is closed off, is knock it on the top and try and lead into chase. your last one. i just want us to go there and maybe we can come back from there with a win and make people think well they ain't so bad are they. i don't want them to pity them, we can get hold of them and win. i've been there before and played well, and dunwell, withall; there's no reason why not and then bring port vale back here and give them a good — they're a good side port vale, they've done exceptionally well. miles better probably than the manager ever anticipated; he's delighted they're up there, i tell ya and you know, it's my old club and i'm pleased for them in that way, but i wanna see us finish off well, but pass the ball. once you start kicking it you've no chance, you've got to pass the ball. you're listening to the fox report. also playing are witney talent to bulldock in the second division of the beezer homes league while abingdon town makes the short track to maidenhead united in the vauxhal league division to falf. cricket; excuse me, and in the benson and hedges cup, the combined universities team are 170 for 7 after 51 overs in this first match of their round group. they're chasing lancashire's 210 with 4 overs to go. financial report; in association with barclay's bank, oxfordshire's business bank. the stock markets shrugged off yesterday's worries and staged the best rise for more than 5 weeks. trading volume was fairly healthy and by 4.30pm 367.7 million shares had been traded. at the close of business the footsie 100 index was up 14.5 points at 2117.9 while wall street opened stronger up 7.89 points at 2664.64. on the foreign exchange market the pound was stronger in quiet trading against the dollar, it firmed 0.4 of a cent to $1.640 whilst against the deutschmark it rose to dm2.7568. ellis and everard, the chemicals distribution group fell 16 pence to 180 pence after announcing a 29 million pound rights issue and the acquisition of 2 companies in the u s elsewhere, s t c firmed 9 pence to 243 pence after a favourable annual general meeting statement. advanced 4 pence to 939 pence on hope that it will shortly sell the crest hotel's chain and a favourable broker's recommendation. other shares on the move today included rolls royce which benefited from continued overseas demand and british steel which rose on news of a major contract with iran. amongst the major shares, abbey national were up 5 to 184; british aerospace down 6 at 518; british airways down 2 at 195; b p up 1 to 305; british gas went up 4 to 191; british steel were up 2 at 138; british telecom, they were up 5 to 250; rolls royce, up 2 to 200 and t s b they were up 1 at 126. now the european community is hoping to phase out the green pound by 1992, along with the m c a's. angus charmers is from the accountants: grant folton. angus first, we saw often here about the green pound but what actually is it? well, i'm going to keep it simple. i certainly don't want to lose anybody, especially me. er if i go back one stage to the e e c and talk about the common agricultural policy. er this is really aimed at controlling agricultural prices and trying to have a stable market within agriculture. er as suggested in the title it's common to all countries and it therefore has a common denominator which is the european currency unit. er all agricultural prices are set with the b c u and er what we're er hold on do we just try and organize myself. i knew i'd lose myself somewhere. er yes, so we've got the european er currency units and all agricultural prices are set by this unit and in fact the green pound er is used to translate this er e c u into pound sterling. er this rate is fixed and can only be changed by agreement with brussels er and as we've seen in the last few years, our normal currency exchange rate has fluctuated quite a lot er and in fact has er become fairly weak, but the green pound has stayed the same so there's quite a difference between our exchange rate and the green rate. so it's not very popular with the farmers basically. no, it's not, no. it's er what this means it means is that the guaranteed price in this country is a lot lower than it is in other european countries. what about these mysterious m c a's i mentioned. well m c a's are really connected with the green pound. they er they try and compensate the difference between the intervention price in one country with the intervention price in another country. er so for example, in this country our guaranteed price is quite low and in germany it's quite high er so what it does was whoever exports or imports between the two it tries to level the prices up. does it work? er it's very complicated and it's very cumbersome. er the e c has really bought upon itself with the common agricultural policy a big animal that is very slow to move and it's not really any advantages of each individual. so what difference will the fact that it's likely to be phased out, make to farmers in britain. well the farmers for the last couple of years have been arguing that they want this green rate devalued er to try and bring it line more with the market rate er and what this would do would er increase our guaranteed prices in this country and in fact on friday this happened er the green rate was devalued by 60%. er and so i've done a few calculations er and for the farmers that are listening and er may understand this er if he was selling his grain in november 89 he would be getting about £99 a ton, whilst if he sells it in november this year he'll be getting £110 a ton. so really it's given a 9% increase to farmers which i think is long overdue really. er. i think we can take it one step further on er with a growth margin basis. if the price goes up 9% and his costs stay about the same maybe up 5% or so, er his actual bottom line is his income at the end of the year will in fact increase by about 60%. so it's good news. it is, it is good news. angus, thank you very much indeed. do you fancy a big bottle of bubbly for just answering the phone? put your name, address and the number you're gonna be at between 10.00 and 2.00 on sunday on a postcard and send it to me, adrian love, fox f m, brush house, pony road, oxford o x four two x r and then keep running with the fox. do it today, 'cause we're talking magnums. traffic's slowly beginning to ease up on all major routes coming out of oxford, abingdon and aylesbury and no major problems to report in the centres either. m40 running well east and westbound the m4, the same but do remember that there's an ascott race meeting tonight and traffic is very, very busy around that whole are. it should be er finished by about 8.30 this evening, so you should be alright after then, but until 8.00 tonight, wokingham road at reading will be closed er that's because of a bust gas main so allow some extra time for your journey. if your following that particular route, find an alternative route. 8.30, 4 roadworks at cheavley interchange; not causing any problems at the moment but they have cause delays earlier, so approach that area with caution. a34 not causing any problems at the moment although traffic is steadily moving round those road works. the m25, that's very busy now between junctions 16 and 15, that's the m40/m4 sheer weight of traffic and an earlier accident causing a lot of congestion around that area, so allow extra time for your journey if you're heading that way. do remember you can't get on at junction 18. this is joanne zorin, a a road watch. nothing to report to you now on the buses or the trains. many british managers are workaholics. a nationwide study has revealed that the managers surveyed are of those managers nearly 80% don't take the holiday their entitled to. these revelations come from talking to personnel managers who admitted they often have to force over-stressed employees to have time off. the survey was carried out for personnel today magazine and its editor, adele kimber, says holidays are a good thing. talking to our readers, personnel managers, we find that they're having to force most of britain's bosses to take time off over less than a quarter of british managers regularly take all their holiday entitlement. now when you say bosses, do you mean boards of directors, chairman, chief executive and so forth, or are you actually talking about the managers below them? we're talking mainly about the managers below them. and why aren't they taking their holidays? er mainly because of workplace pressures. they're finding er as business becomes more competitive, targets are harder to meet and they're finding they're becoming more reluctant to stay out — to get away from the office, to take time off. why this reluctance? do you think that perhaps in many cases they're frightened of losing their jobs? er partly and there's also some evidence that they don't trust others to carry without them. you mean they're not capable of delegating? yes, i mean there is some evidence to suggest that senior staff we found are very rarely completely away from the office. over 80% are contactable by phone even if their on holiday in britain. i thought a good manager was supposed to be able to delegate. exactly, i mean that's what they should do, but this evidence suggests that they're not doing that. now is it just the managers, what about the rank and file of the workforce? most rank and file workforce are taking their holidays. we found over 80% regularly take all their holidays. you're listening to the fox report. today scenes of celebrations in the centre of oxford to mark may day. tradition dictates that pubs open in 5.00 in the morning. morris men take to the streets around carfax, and magdelen college choir sing their hearts out. this year, fox f m was there for the first time and phil angel managed to catch dr john howard to explain what it all meant. it's got a long history, lots of it confused as you'd expect in oxford of course. er it goes back at least 300 years er possibly longer than that, it may be that when they finish the tar they had services up there to celebrate it or to remember one of the benefactors. but certainly by the end of the 17th century there was a huge concert up there at this time of the morning going on for an hour. then in the 18th century, either the choir was awful or the weather was awful, er nobody's too sure which, but they then settled for just seeing the one thing they knew by memory which was this eucharistic hymn: todaym parchym that they sang in the hall every night as a grace, and that's how it's gone on. er it got terribly out of hand in the 19th century; people throwing eggs from the top of the tower, the choristers and the people from the town blowing trumpets and all sorts of things, really riotous. er so it was reformed in 1844 er no more rotten eggs then and we do it very much as then; facing the rising sun which was beautiful there you go. finally rainbow is in town at the apollo theatre. jeffery, zippy, bungle and george will be doing their stage show every afternoon this week. abbey donalds spoke to jeffery and bungle who were looking forward to their stay in oxford. i always look forward to doing the show 'cause we meet all our friends that watch us on television, don't we jeffrey? you're right we do. and you like to be out and about do you? oh it's lovely isn't it? meeting everybody. how do you like oxford? i've not been here before, but it's really, really pretty and there's some very old houses aren't there jeffery? very old bungle. in fact i'm gonna take you around the city later on. ooh. on one of those buses? i saw some buses jeffery, with no roof on. they're sightseeing buses. a whatseeing? sight seeing. ooh can we go on one of those then please? of course we can, yes. ooh. so you're gonna have a nice time here then? i think so, yes. if jeffery's good to you. oh well he's always good to us. he's very, very kind. except when he gets cross with us sometimes. but that's usually when we've been naughty isn't it? are they naughty very often? er most of the time, yes. they're difficult to control are they? very difficult. that's why i thought we'd have a quite afternoon after the show. go along by the river and the pond, it'll be nice there. oh it's a boat is it? a boat, yes. oh, ohh that'll be fun i can splash zippy. no. no playing about on the — it's dangerous on the river. you've got to be very careful, sit still. oh alright jeffery. so we'll get an ice lolly. and they you'll punt us. i'll punt you. oh doesn't he treat you well. he's wonderful. i wouldn't want to live with anybody else. so you like living with them, do you? yes. are they alright to handle? er well it's a strange sort of a family really; a hippopotamus, and a bear and a zip. but somehow we get by, don't we? i suppose you could say going from the magdalen choir to jeffery and zippy, we're going from the sublime to the ridiculous. and that was the fox report for tuesday may 1, may day 1990. join me tomorrow, i'll be back with another fox report at 6.00. tonight oxfordshire tycoon richard branson warns hundreds of gulf refugees will die without more aid, and local charity oxfam launch their appeal and say the situation could get worse. the fear is that people will start to flood out of iraq at the same time, in which case we could be talking about up to 2 million people leaving iraq through jordan. scientists at chilton release a report on x-ray radiation and a couple describe how the beatles have destroyed true love. to be honest it's been seven months of hell. as much as i love her i didn't realise what i was taking on, she's absolutely obsessed with paul mccartney.. the six o'clock news, this is howard hughes. the british women and children seized in kuwait yesterday while trying to join a convoy to baghdad are now being transported in a fleet of buses to the iraqi capital; from there i r n's james baize reports. it's now thought a hundred and eighty people were detained by the iraqis as they made their way to the pick up point for the last british convoy from kuwait. they're now being taken in iraqi buses to baghdad and are expected here in the early hours of the morning, the authorities say they'll then be free to leave the country. meanwhile tomorrow another british convoy again of about a hundred and eighty women and children is expected to make the long hot journey from kuwait to baghdad. and an iraqi airways jumbo chartered by the british embassy is expected to fly the three hundred and six people who are already here in the iraqi capital, to jordan. james baize i r n baghdad. virgin airways chairman richard branson says hundreds could die waiting to get home from iraq because the international relief effort is not working. he was speaking after one of his planes with just over a hundred britons on board left jordan with more half the seats empty because of diplomatic red tape. saddam hussein is calling for an islamic holy war against american forces in the gulf and their arab supporters. he wants the arab people to rise up in revolt against rulers like king faed of saudi arabia and hosni mubarak of egypt. in a message broadcast on iraqi t v, hussein speaking through an interpreter has urged all arabs to support him. we call upon all arabs each according to his potentials and capabilities within the teachings of allah and according to the moslem holy war of jihad to fight this, this u s presence of non-believers. soviet miners are going to scotland yard tomorrow to give the fraud squad details of arthur scargill's alleged mishandling of a £1 million gift. mr scargill says the soviet pitmen's present was intended for international purposes, but the soviet democratic labour movement says it meant to ease the hardship of striking british miners. sergei koslov who's leading a four-man soviet delegation to britain is accusing mr scargill of betrayal. i think arthur scargill's handling of the affair has been despicable and i feel that he should be brought to justice for acts which we consider to be verging on the illegal. the money should be transferred to the n u m and if it is not longer needed by those families, we would suggest that they give it back to help the formation of the independent labour movement in russia. a man's been remanded in custody for a week charged with the murder of two women found strangled in a car in london. thirty four-year old michael shorey entered no plea to charges that he murdered patricia morrison and elaine forsyth in holloway in july. a teenager has walked out of hospital a day after plunging 200 feet from the severn bridge in an accident that killed two of his workmates. the three men were working on the bridge when a cradle supporting them collapsed; nineteen year old mark seaton from chepstow in gwent says he knows he's lucky but what he feels most is anger. extremely, you know i mean if, if it had been checked over regular maybe or something like that, i don't know how often it gets checked over or anything but you know er that gantry's supposed to be you know, kind of really safe, so many sensors on it which are supposed to stop that from happening. i'm lucky, very lucky indeed you know just to come away with bruised ribs. last winter's storm damage pay outs have battered profits for the big insurance companies, and that threatens to push up house cover premiums. half-year profits for sun alliance show the firm £119 million in the red compared with £191 million in profit at the same time last year. and eagle star has been badly hit for the same reason; their profits are down 170,000,000 to just 9,000,000. gay men and women are staging a so-called kiss in this evening beneath the statue of eros the god of love at picadilly circus; they see it as a challenge to public decency laws. the organisers say current legislation is offensive to homosexuals and to lesbians. independent radio news.. its wednesday september 5th 1990. first a look at today's main story in more detail. more than fifty british hostages were on a freedom flight from the gulf to gatwick airport today for an emotional reunion with relatives. the women and children were among ninety two westerners on board a virgin atlantic plane from jordan sent by oxfordshire tycoon richard branson. peter stewart was at gatwick to see the homecoming. yesterday virgin's gatwick-based 747, the scarlet lady the flagship of their fleet, left britain with 30 tons of medical and food supplies for refugees on the jordanian-iraqi border. the plan left amman, jordan's capital, just after midnight and landed at gatwick shortly before eight this morning; on board 57 britons, 29 americans, 4 australians and 2 canadians. seventeen year old ritu vasudeva spoke of how her family sheltered in their house for a month for fear of being taken to one of saddam's guest hotels, then they had to forge exit papers to enable them to escape. well we travelled through the night mostly, we got to erm no we got to no-man's land that's when it got bad. it was really hot and dusty. did you have to hide in your flat in kuwait? yes and that was four weeks how did you survive? we had friends who were able to — like a lebanese friend i've got, he was er arranging — he used to bring us the food and water and things like that. the man who flew the hostages out, virgin chairman richard branson spoke of the human misery at the airport. just ten minutes from the airport you've got erm thousands and thousands of bangladeshis wanting to get home er and it's embarrassing i find, being erm and the press find, being er at the airport er seeing all the attention on a few you know, western faces. and virgin's boss says there's a great deal that has to be done to stop more deaths in the crisis zone. you've got a hundred — a hundred degrees in the day time and you've got freezing conditions at night and literally just, people are lying, lying on the floor shaking at night time, erm they're beginning to lose children, they haven't had an er epidemic of disease yet, you know they're definitely going to get one, er and then the other big problem is er to coordinate a massive air lift, and it's going to have to be an air lift, you know as, as big as say the berlin air lift. and he says the mood on board the freedom flight, the scarlet lady was a mixture of relief and regret. and some people, you know they, they managed to, you know they didn't have their husbands there and they were going home and they were wonderfully relieved and for others obviously it was, you know there is still a lot of emotion. on their return, children played with toys and games in private rooms at gatwick airport, while their parents underwent debriefing by foreign office officials. you are listening to the fox report. as british women and children continue to fly out of the gulf, the oxford based charity oxfam is trying to increase awareness of other foreign nationals they've left behind. oxfam says the problem is that while wealthier nations can afford to bring their citizens back in large numbers, there are poorer ones who can't. it's particularly concerned about conditions in jordanian refugee camps which two of it's middle east staff, sent on a fact finding mission, have described as grim. ramsay jameel who saw the camps at first hand, has been telling robin powell that refugees are putting up with appalling circumstances. they are living under loose tented accommodation, some of them don't have tented accommodation erm the, the country is hot, erm there is a shortage of water, not just at the camps but also to er jordanian towns themselves at the moment. in the border zone camps the situation is very much more grim; er there is an acute shortage of water although the jordanians are trucking water in 24 hours a day, it isn't at the moment, enough to keep those camps going. erm it's very very hot, it can reach 40x or 42x centigrade, sand blown, inadequate shelter and at the moment, something like 10,000 more people coming across the border each day than are leaving the country. who are these people generally — where are they from? the vast majority of them are non-kuwaiti nationals leaving kuwait, erm bengalis, thais, sri lankans, phillipinos, erm never mind arab nationals who have been leaving to egypt, sudan, lebanon, syria and jordan themselves. erm the fear is that people will start to flood out of iraq at the same time, in which case we could be talking about up to 2,000,000 people leaving iraq through jordan. how long can they reasonably be expected to last in conditions like that? the jordanians are doing a magnificent job, keeping, keeping the show going erm people in those camps in many cases have been there for 4,5 or 7 days. we're hoping to help the authorities upgrade water supply and storage and shelter to those camps, er it's hard to say, but the situation is grim. there is a shortage at the moment of food and medicines, er a lot could be done by governments i think to help the jordanians in that, at the same time perhaps wealthier governments could help poorer governments bring their people home. meanwhile oxfam has launched it's own appeal. this is correct. we've launched an appeal, at the same time we are sending out large stocks of water supply and water storage equipment, shelters and blankets. what would be your message to people thinking of helping? lobby the governments to help poorer governments bring their people home.. it's a little bit slow on the a43 this evening at weston on the green, it's because of the roadworks which are going on tonight; other than that, no serious delays to report, just between the city flow of traffic around the ring road, certainly around the oxford city centre as well as out on to the a43, the 423, the 34 as usual. roadworks may affect your journey if you're travelling through on to the 423 at bunkers hill, there's lane restrictions there plus some temporary traffic lights in operation this evening. also if you're moving through to wardington on the 361, resurfacing again has left some temporary traffic lights, that's just to the north of banbury there, between in fact banbury and the daventry road. er. if you're moving also through banbury, of course we have our usual restrictions; the high street is affected and also if you're moving through finally on to the a422, i would mention, in warwickshire, the stratford to alcester road, that has some temporary traffic lights at taylor's wood. a bit sluggish on the motorways; the m40, the m4 especially at the thames valley interchange with the m25, there are some delays there, it's making heavy traffic eastbound on the m4, also we've just heard an accident on the clockwise carriageway of the m25 at the m4 interchange and there are delays both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. nigel ansell, a a roadwatch. and i've nothing to report on either the trains or the buses. still to come; a chemical weapons expert warns london could be an iraqi target. first with a look at the day's local news here's robin powell. a former chief of staff of the united nations, now living in oxfordshire is calling for a peaceful resolution to the gulf crisis. brigadier michael harbottle from chipping norton wrote a letter to the guardian newspaper which was published this morning, asking for an arab alternative to war in the gulf. he'll be explaining his views at a meeting on the crisis at oxford town hall this evening. i think that there is every reason to suppose and hope that that kind of approach is what most people want and er even er mr bush and mrs thatcher and others have said that er the last thing they want is a war. there is always a danger of war when you have a face to face confrontation that is building up in the gulf at the moment. a west oxfordshire firm charged with causing a pollution scare, has pleaded not guilty. the national rivers authority is prosecuting harcross building and timber supplies over an incident in march in which a quantity of timber preservative was detected in a tributary of stutfield brook at childury. the case has been adjourned until november 7th. a man's been taken to oxford's john radcliffe hospital following an industrial accident at bicester in which his arm was badly injured in machinery. the man underwent initial hospital treatment this afternoon, ambulance service spokesman brian chambers explains the situation. the job is now finished, but er when we got the call in the control room, we immediately dispatched two paramedics to the scene. how long is the man likely to be kept in hospital? that is a question i am afraid that is impossible to answer at this stage, that won't be known until he's had a thorough investigation by the surgeons at the hospital who er probably won't be able to answer that for a day or two yet. final preparations are underway for an oxfordshire convoy heading for roumania at the weekend. churches in the north of the county have joined forces to provide relief supplies for people left in need after the revolution there. the organiser of the convoy is the reverend john evans who's a priest in charge of 3 churches in the bicester area, he says the project had humble beginnings. we started off just looking for a few cuddly toys and a few pounds to send them across to the folk in roumania because we were all very touched by the need of the children there. and the thing just snowballed and we've managed to accumulate something like £6,000 and about 40 tons of gifts in the form of children's clothing, children's toys er medicaments of one sort or another, various creams recommended to us by pediatricians, er shampoos and other things like antibiotics and so on which we're taking over on behalf of er a medical team from banbury. and finally oxford cheetah speedway stars have made a taped message which it's hoped will bring a little boy out of a coma. ten year old dean goldsmith fell off his bike last week and is now in the intensive care unit of the radcliffe infirmary in oxford. his parents hope the tape which was taken to the hospital this morning by the cheetah's co-promoter peter york will help dean regain consciousness. fox f m news, robin powell reporting. it's a quarter past six. one of the country's foremost experts on chemical warfare is warning that london could be attacked by iraqi terrorists using the deadly weapons. evelyn lachennes widow of a british war-time spy, pierre lachennes has devoted the last ten years to studying the effects of chemical weapons on civilian populations wherever they've been used. defence correspondent paul maurice asked her just how much of the threat to britain had increased since the start of the gulf crisis. i would say it's gone up 100 per cent, where before there was a logical argument to say that it's negligible, that argument no longer exists; it is not negligible, it is there, it is upon us now, and it is likely to er lead to considerable er hazard for our civilian population and civilian populations of all nato countries if we do not address it. it is therefore time now that the policy about this be reassessed and that the government acknowledges that this threat now exists and must be addressed. do you think it's possible the iraqis here living in this country could have some of these nerve gases that they could explode if the situation in iraq gets very bad? my immediate reaction, my automatic feeling to that is yes. er. these agents are unfortunately fairly easy to come by and the iraqis have already proven themselves to be masters of er subversive acquisition, er given that they are also now fired with a certain amount of fundamentalism, and should they find their backs to the wall, that even be accelerated. er. i, i fear that the use from any stockpiling that might have taken place er in this country is a very real hazard. so how much would it take to cause tremendous damage in this country — would they need gallons of it or not? no not at all, er for the nerve gas tabun for example , if you had a litre of that, and you've only got to look at erm a container of milk to see how little that is , er on a very busy day in london, that could possibly wipe out about a quarter of a million people. so you are talking of something very substantial there. have other european governments taken precautions? er france has erm not a bad policy towards this, it's er though half-heartedly, er nonetheless over a period of er perhaps since the war it's had what i call a tick over policy of making quite sure that every year they do produce a bit, do produce a bit. so from that point of view they are in a better position er than we are, er but of the european erm powers, or countries, er the two er neutral countries of sweden and switzerland, er they are what i call classic examples. er. for the last twenty years it has been the government policy in both countries to er protect their civilian populations against these weapons and the potential use of them by er terrorists or a hostile force. and er they have got it now to a state of what i would imagine almost perfection, and that is that every man, woman and child of the population of those two countries er has got adequate protection and even a woman er who wishes to go out and do shopping in the contaminated er environment has the possibility of, of suiting up and putting a special er cover on the pram of her child and actually pushing this child with a special ventilator out. er. so that's er quite erm a success story for those two countries. you are listening to the fox report. a former united nations chief of staff will be addressing a forum of peace campaigners in oxford this evening, calling for a peaceful resolution to the gulf crisis. brigadier michael harbottle along with other local experts will put forward alternatives to a war in the middle east at the meeting organised by the local peace group — campaign against war in the gulf. one of the organisers of the meeting, nuala young says it's important that people realise the seriousness of the situation. we were concerned that er what's happening now in the gulf isn't a simple issue, and it needs to be dealt with very carefully. er. the core issue really is the control of natural resources and as the resources become scarcer, then there's a greater possibility for conflict. we use oil in so many different ways in our lives that our lives are going to be affected by any crisis in the area where the oil is produced. we are concerned in fact that er the western nations didn't rather deplore earlier er hussein's actions against his own people using chemical weapons, and we think it's a shame for us that we've only come in at this point, and we must come in carefully i think. what are your main concerns what, that would be discussed tonight then? well, we're anxious that there isn't an escalation of this crisis, that it may be dealed with as brigadier harbottle has written in a letter to the guardian today, dealt with, er more through first of all an attempt by the arab nations to come to some agreement amongst themselves and agreement which will satisfy them and be a more long-lasting one. er. then secondly this should be supported by the united nations who, if this fails, may have to intervene then. so you'll be discussing all this tonight, and is it open to the public? it's open to the public yes, and we'd like to have as wider range of views, we're all open-minded at the moment because we need to be informed, and this is what the meeting is for. and the meeting is open to the public and starts at half past seven at oxford's town hall. it's twenty one minutes past six. patients across the country are receiving widely varying doses of radiation during x-rays according to a report out today by the oxfordshire-based national radiological protection board. the n r p b at chilton has produced the report with the royal college of radiologists, and it's revealed patients in one region, may receive up to twenty times the radiation dose of patients in another region. as a consequence, the report is calling for more attention to the reasons and procedures governing x-rays. doctor paul shrimpton at the n r p b says it's sometimes a question of updating equipment or simply revising procedures, but he's stressing patients who are x-rayed aren't in any real danger. we estimate that er of the er the current level of collected dose from medical radiology, about half of it could in fact be reduced by implementing the recommendations of the report. in half the cases examinations could have been carried out using less radiation. but we have to say that the er the individual risks to patients from the radiation used in examinations are very very low. has your survey shown that hospitals are performing x-rays without any real justification? well certainly examinations should only be carried out where er there is a benefit likely to accrue to the patient, and er this should always be greater than the risk from the radiation itself. now we find in fact for the levels radiation that used, the risks to the individual patients are very very low indeed er generally less than one in a thousand chance of some adverse effect. but you are saying that hospitals must pay more attention to the justification of, for performing an x-ray? yes, the royal college suggested that maybe twenty per cent of all examinations that are carried out er maybe don't have benefits for the patient, and in that sense are unjustified. and if this er component were reduced then this would er give a considerable saving in a collective dose. but if patients aren't in danger, why have you done this report at all? well i think it's a case of just er being prudent and keeping all risks and doses down to the minimum possible. at the levels er that we find in diagnostic radiology, the individual levels of risk are very very low. but if we can get the same information for an even lower level of risk, then that is really what people should do. you are listening to the fox report it's twenty four minutes past six. the national rivers authority has been celebrating it's first birthday today in the fox f m region. the twelve months have been fraught with pressures from nature, such as flooding and drought as well as artificial problems from chemical pollutions. it regards itself as the guardian of the water environment and has successfully prosecuted thirty polluters so far, with many cases still pending. i asked les jones, the region's general manager whether despite success in prosecution, the courts were still enough of a deterrent. clearly if, if the fines were more that would help, but i do think now because of the consciousness of the general public and because of the involvement of the media in, in the environment, er that firms are not keen and the third parties, whoever they may be, are not keen to be fined in court for pollution, because public opinion is such that it's very much disapproved of. and i think the weight of public opinion is a great thing in our favour in our battle against pollution. it could be argued that people in our region have actually lost confidence in their water, they've suffered from cryptospyridia, blue-green algae, we're now in a drought period, how would you reassure the public? well i mean i can assure them that the, the national rivers authority in the thames region is monitoring rivers on a daily basis throughout the year and that we would hope to deal with pollution incidents as they occur, and we would hope with our monitoring and the pressure we put on third parties to er actually over the years, to improve things from what they are at the moment and to make things better. so you would agree that there have been significant hiccups this year? i mean there have been the usual number of pollution incidents and they seem to increase every year, er and a lot of those to deal with er as you say, i think one of the things which is, which is good is that public consciousness has been raised and people are much more aware of what they drink and what's in their rivers. that can only help us in our jobs. why do you believe the incidents have become more frequent? i think it's the pressure of modern living. the thames region supports about 12,000,000 people, er and just the pressures of modern living are adding pressures to the environment, i mean that's happening all around us. the local council in banbury have just recently passed the planning application for the coca cola canning plant there, is this something you would welcome given problems with pollution up in banbury anyway, before? i mean what we would do is, is very rigorously look at er more of whatever was going to be discharged from any company who, who came into our region. we would then give them a consent to discharge into the river and we would make sure that that consent if it were complied with, did not deteriorate river conditions, river quality conditions. and finally, i you looking forward to the next year? oh yes! i mean er we, we have er a great job to do, i mean we're all about improving the environment, we're all about working with very pleasant things like rivers and we're all about doing important things like protecting people from flooding. oh yes, very much looking forward to it. this is the fox report. more than a hundred scientists from around the world have gathered at st john's college, oxford, for a major conference. the scientists hope to compile an electronic data base of human genes, so doctors around the world can have locations and descriptions of all known genes. doctor ian craig the organiser of the human gene conference told john walmsley what it hopes to achieve. well this conference has been assembled to bring up to date our information concerning the position of human genes in the human chromosomes. we have about 140 international specialists in human gene mapping coming together to use a new data base system developed at the john hopkins university in collaboration with people in london at the i c r f labs and that data base will provide information on all those genes we have already identified and mapped. there are something like 50,000 individual genes providing the genetic blueprint for each individual, and our task is really to find out where each one is on human chromosomes and to isolate them and to characterise them. so far, we've actually managed to characterise about 1600 of that 50,000 and so we've got a very long way to go. is the first time the scientists have all come together for one specialist meeting? no indeed, this is in fact er about the twelfth meeting in a series, the first meeting was in 1973, where 75 scientists came together to deliberate about 50 genes which were known at that time. here we have 140 scientists, who are deliberating about 2,000 genes. so this is er a milestone if you like or a watershed in the development of human gene mapping, but we have got er a very long way to go in the future. so once you've characterised all the genes, do you hope to stamp out deformed genes? i think it's almost an impossibility to stamp out deformed genes, new defective genes are arising in the population all the time. what we are doing is providing information for perhaps clinicians to act on, we also in the future hope to develop the information we have into something useful, and in some cases the information we have already. so certain genes enables us to do just that, because knowing the gene enables us to manufacture the product which the gene should make normally in people, and in those people who can't make it normally, then you can supply the defective product to them. mainly er an accident and incident free night through the fox f m area this evening, certainly no serious accidents er reported, nothing from our fox patrols either tonight. we've had a steady flow of traffic away from oxford city centre, indeed through banbury and out from aylesbury on the a41, the a413. just a case of reminding there were some problems it's been a little bit slow because of roadworks on the high street in banbury as usual because of that water board work that's continuing. also more roadworks may well affect your journey to the north of enstone on the a43, that's because of some resurfacing work, and if you're travelling through on the 417 at east hendred er near the hare public house, there's more temporary signals in operation too this evening. bunker's hill, the a423 there resurfacing and lane closures and more temporary signals, apart from that, not too bad, the motorway routes still continue to run well; the m40 is certainly looking good. the m4 has been a bit slow although only eastbound, and the m25 is still a bit sluggish at the thames valley because of an accident, mainly on the clockwise carriageway by the m4 interchange, it's just er a little slow with a couple of miles queue either side of the m4 interchange itself. nigel ansell a a roadwatch. british rail tell us that the 6.30 aylesbury to marylebone train service has been cancelled this evening, while the buses continue to operate a trouble-free service. it's six thirty one. the british women and children seized in kuwait yesterday while trying to join a convoy to baghdad, are now being transported in a fleet of buses to the iraqi capital; authorities say they'll then be free to leave the country. virgin airways chairman richard branson says hundreds could die waiting to get home from iraq because the international relief effort isn't working. he was speaking after one of his planes with just over 100 britons on board left jordan with more than half the seats empty because of diplomatic red tape. saddam hussein has gone on baghdad t v to call for a holy war against u s forces in the gulf, and the overthrow of saudi arabia's king faed. he blames america and israel for u n sanctions which mean iraqi children would die because they have no food, milk or medicine. last winter's storm damage pay-outs have battered profits for the big insurance companies, threatening to push up house cover premiums; half-year profits for sun alliance show the firm £190,000,000 in the red, compared with 191,000,000 in profit at the same time last year. the weather: cloudy with light rain tonight, but becoming dry and clear later, lowest temperatures are expected to reach around 8x celsius, that's 46x fahrenheit, and tomorrow should be sunny and windy but fairly cool. still to come; gay activists are holding a demonstration in london tonight, but first there are calls for doctors and surgeons infected with the aids virus to be forced to declare their illness to patients. a court in america has heard claims that a woman became infected with the virus after a visit to the dentist. but dr david shanson, a senior consultant microbiologist at the westminster hospital, says even if surgeons are infected, that shouldn't matter unless they're incapable of operating. if the surgeon though is unable to perform his duties properly, for example if h i v infects his brain and he's demented or he's coughing up tubercle bacilli because of pneumonia, of course these are extreme complications, and there's no way a hospital would allow a surgeon to continue to operate under such circumstances. but that er to actually get to the stage where every health care worker's h i v status or every patients’ is made public knowledge is clearly not in anybody's interest. are doctors and surgeons regularly tested for h i v? no, er perhaps they should be in the future in anonymous research studies, er just as at the moment er every patient is but then how can you say it's safe if they're not regularly tested? we do need, this is a fair point, that we do need more data all the way through here, at the moment none of us is suggesting any compulsory tests for anybody. all the time when there is an h i v antibody test it must be with informed consent from the patient or staff member. are the precautions that are carried out during surgery or general practice adequate — for example the wearing of three rubber gloves and gowns and so forth? well the evidence for transmission in the operating theatre is very very low; it's strong circumstantial evidence that a patient, that certains are at high risk with certain types of surgery like wiring of jaws, or er very bloody major operations. so we, the answer is we don't really know but it seems common sense to apply barrier precautions and to do everything you can to modify the type of surgery so that the chances of having an injury with a sharp instrument are reduced, and people have made some constructive proposals along these lines. this is the fox report, it's twenty five minutes to seven. a delegation of soviet miners is to meet officers from the fraud squad tomorrow over arthur scargill's alleged mishandling of funds donated during the year-long pit strike. the four-man team from the democratic labour movement claim more than £1 million given by russian miners, was intended for their striking british colleagues. speaking through an interpreter, the leader of the delegation sergei koslov accused the n u m leader of betrayal. the money that er we raised in the soviet union was intended for the families of miners who had suffered as a result of the strike. and what do you thing of the way arthur scargill has handled the affair? i think arthur scargill's handling of the affair has been despicable and i feel that he should be brought to justice for acts which we consider to be verging on the er illegal. this is a wide er feeling and er a feeling of great anger er because only recently we have been told the truth of how this money was used. mr scargill has blamed the soviet miners for the confusion over this whole affair, could that be correct? that is totally incorrect; there is a quite clear position of the miners. we were told that this money was being collected for the families and we gave this money through the official trade union for that purpose. the money has not been used for that purpose. so what should happen to the money which is now held by the i m o in paris? the money should be transferred to the n u m, and if it is not longer needed by those families, we would suggest that they give it back to help the formation of the independent labour movement in russia. and what will you be doing to ensure that the money doesn't stay in paris? er we will be er speaking to the police and will be giving evidence er that we have collected. this the fox report. around a hundred homosexual couples will risk arrest tonight by gathering in london's picadilly circus for a kiss-in. the demonstration arranged by the lesbian and gay direct action group, outrage, is to challenge public decency laws which it claims are being misinterpreted to criminalise public shows of affection between gay couples. one of the organisers peter tatchell told clare martin that the weight of public opinion is behind the demonstrators and it's time the laws were changed. we'd like to see the er government give a very clear signal to er the police that they want these laws not to be enforced in this prejudiced and discriminatory way. we'd like them to say that the laws like the 1986 public order act, which after all was introduced to combat football hooliganism, and not to control people's sexuality, should not be used to drag lesbians and gay men before the courts simply for showing their love for each other. have there been instances then, when this has happened? yes there's been many cases where lesbian and gay couples have left a gay bar, have given each other a goodnight kiss at a bus stop or at a tube station or in the street and they've been arrested under public decency laws and dragged through the courts and fined up to £200. er. there's also been a particularly extreme case; last year in july when a northampton man was sentenced to 18 months imprisonment for merely kissing and fondling another man in a churchyard in the middle of the night. now i think that the way the law is used in this country against the gay community is really making britain the laughing stock of europe. we are the only country anywhere, east or west, where lesbians and gay men are criminalised in this way. your plans to hold this demonstration of public affection between homosexual couples have already drawn criticism. is this really going to advance your cause? well i think the first thing is, we have to bring out into the open the way in which the law is being misused. you see, none of these laws actually mention homosexuality at all; they're all interpreted by the police and the courts to criminalise our affection. and we really have to in the first instance, get public opinion to realise the way in which our lives are so pervasively subject to criminal prosecution, that's the first step. the second step is that really frankly the history of all great civil rights and human rights movements has sadly been that it's often only through challenging the law, indeed even breaking the law, that injustices are put right. and we've been campaigning for years to try and get these laws changed, no-one seems to have been listening very much and that's why we've adopted this more upfront direct challenge to the law. we think it's the only way we can actually show the seriousness with which we believe we are being criminalised and persecuted, and in order to draw public attention to the need to change these laws. still to come the day's sporting action, but first financial report in association with barclay's bank for your financial needs. in spite of a heavy fall in tokyo overnight, the london market proved resilient this morning with bear closing a firm future's market and the weight of institutional cash providing support. the one hundred share index was 17.4 points higher at one stage, but finished the day well below it's best level, 4.2 points higher at 2152.2, at 4 o'clock the volume was mediocre at 321.7 million shares. on the foreign exchange market sterling made progress against both the u s and german currencies, rising 2 cents against the dollar to £1.8945 and 0.27 pfennigs against the deutschmark to 2 deutschmark 9690. amongst the majors, abbey national up to up 10, british aerospace up 4 at 544, british airways down 1 pence at 169, b p up 1 at 370. british gas was up at 1, at, up 1 at 223, british steel was down 1 at 125, british telecom was up too at 284, rolls royce was down too at 187 and t s b was up 1 at 130. moving on to sport now and oxford united face reading at the manor tonight in the first round, second leg of the rumbelows league cup, the of a one-goal advantage from the first leg at elm park; covering the match this evening is mickey inotta who saw oxford's bubble burst on saturday as they went down 3-1 to nott's county. and there does seem to be some speculation about who will now play in goal. mickey, do you have the latest team news? yes i do, there's still injury doubts over alan jedsa , paul keeps his place in the side, he didn't have a particular good game against notts county; one horrendous effort — error there, but he has played well generally and especially the same side that started that match at notts county, so we can expect to see both full backs pushing up and really hopefully an open game like the one against port vale. and of course oxford supporters don't need reminding that last season they led fulham 1-0 after the first leg and they lost 5-3 at home. do you think history can repeat itself? well there's that awful saying in football lucy that it's a funny old game, it often bears the truth. if the same thing was to happen tonight, i wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall in the oxford dressing room. but really i don't think so, although i did speak to the reading manager ian porterfield a few minutes ago and he does seem relaxed and so do his players, so you know i am a little worried now, now we're getting nearer kick-off i'm beginning to get a little more worried. thanks mickey. and one other match taking place this evening is the preliminary round f a cup replay at railway cuttings between banbury united and solihull borough, and if you're thinking of popping along, the message from banbury is to get there early as another bumper gate is expected. oxford cheetah's ace, simon wigg is urging oxford speedway supporters to get behind their team for tonight's sunbright league clash against bradford at the oxford stadium. the cheetahs supported by fox f m, are facing the indignity of finishing bottom of the british league after winning the championship last year. we're out there riding as hard as we can and if that gives any of the supporters any sort of er consolation, i don't know if it does or not, but it — we're really giving our best all the time and er win, lose or draw you'll always find us every time we've got a doing our best and er although often some people might shout and scream and give us a hard time, er it's not for, for lack of trying, i mean nobody wants to finish last and er me even more than most, so just get behind us and shout and scream and we'll try our hardest. tomorrow at christchurch sports ground oxfordshire county cricket association take on warwickshire in the final of the national cricket association's county championship. warwickshire are the current holders of the championship, while oxfordshire have won it once in 1979 and were runners up in 1984. leading oxfordshire as ever we're with the england amateur captain phil garner; phil, tomorrow's match — with the weather unsettled, can we expect to see the spin attack of rupert evans and ian curtis turn the tables again? well i should think you'd see that spin attack turn the tables whatever the weather was really, and we've also got peter bradbury who's taken more wickets in the cherwell lead than anybody this year, so we've got three first line county standard off spinners er or rather two off spinners and a left arm spinner. and i'm sure you'll see them in operation tomorrow, we've got six bowlers in all so we're fairly confident that we'll er bowl whatever the conditions. so it's looking good. well how difficult a season has it been so far, i mean for instance, in the minor county championship a lot of matches were drawn i think that last season you probably would have won? yes, the difference of course is that in two day cricket you can't necessarily guarantee a result er and forcing wins was what we didn't quite manage to do, it was er it was a season of what might have been for the county cricket club er a very good season but not quite as successful as last year. now in this particular game it's a limited overs game; fifty overs a side, one side will win tomorrow er so there will be a definite result, and we think we've got a strong side. er. we finished erm a close second in the semi-final of this competition last year so we're looking forward to playing this er last year's winners and this year's tonight, winnie mandela is charged with kidnapping and assault. a british expert says it could put pressure on nelson mandela's negotiations with the south african government. to be an acute embarrassment to nelson mandela and to the national executive committee of the african national congress. atlanta, georgia is to host the 1996 olympic games, the city's mayor shrugs off the disappointment of the athens contingent who were hot favourites. we're going to put on the olympic games in ‘96, we're going to make everybody including athens proud. and a new exhibition of water colours at oxford's old fire station, but what inspired the artist to take up painting? sitting on a beach in cornwall and being utterly bored, wanting something to do. 24 hours a day on 102.6, this is fox f m. it's 6 o'clock, this is annie webster. petrol prices are on the way up again with shell pushing prices at the pumps to more than £2.34p. the latest increase of 3.2p a gallon takes effect from tomorrow and other oil companies are bound to follow suit. it means prices have surged by an average of more than 30p a gallon since the iraqi invasion of kuwait. shadow energy secretary frank dobson says the treasury has made a killing out of the increases. the government's er oil revenues have gone up by £345 million, er that's an average of £7.1 million a day, since the gulf crisis started, and er they're now running at over £13 million a day more than they were before the crisis commenced. atlanta georgia will host the 1996 centennial olympic games. the international olympic committee rejected bids from manchester and the sentimental favourites athens, in favour of the southern american city. tim knight reports on the surprise choice from the i o c meeting in tokyo. atlanta. an olympic movement looking ahead rather than reflecting on it's noble past was how one i o c committee member described atlanta's win over athens, bobby charlton part of manchester's bid wasn't so sure. it's not so long since it was in the united states and er i'm quite shocked really, but i'm er i mean manchester did a terrific job really. manchester was unlucky to be in the strongest ever field of candidates for an olympic games, jim knight i r n tokyo. manchester mp tom pendry says the selection process ought to be tougher next time and based on merit not money. mr pendry one of labour's sports spokesman isn't claiming foul play by atlanta, but he says the rules at the moment can easily be bent. i think we should press for the international olympic er committee to look at their rules and see that er to ensure that you cannot buy the games, you, you win the games on merit. and i think that's got to be part of the british olympic association's er philosophy, to ensure that we have an even handed approach to it. i'm not saying atlanta did anything untoward, but i think the rules are so open that er you could if you wished. security forces in ulster have recovered the body of constable louis robinson near crossmaglen. he'd been kidnapped and shot by the i r a at the weekend; from belfast, david stokes. the body of constable louis robinson was removed from the roadside in south armagh late this afternoon after a day-long security operation. a statement from r u c headquarters tonight says that no words can fully convey the feeling of the force and all decent people at the manner of the murder. not for the first time says the statement have the killers shown any trace of humanity or respect for public opinion. meanwhile the i r a in a statement from dublin have admitted they shot and seriously wounded an army careers officer in north london yesterday evening, and they've warned of further attacks in britain. david stokes, i r n, belfast. nelson mandela's wife winnie has been charged with four counts of kidnapping and four of assault; the charges follow the death of the teenage black activist stompie moeketsi. the government has ordered an investigation into procedures used by social services over the handling of allegations of the satanic abuse of children in rochdale. seventeen adults were arrested, but even though police now say there's no case against them, many of the twenty children taken into care have not been allowed home. and the government has lost a high court battle over the poll tax with one of the london charge capped councils; the court has upheld lambeth council's decision to set the community charge at £521 rather than the £493 figure sought by the government. transport secretary cecil parkinson is hitting out at the dirty habits of the british public; he says mountains of litter dumped along motorways is forcing the government to spend £3 million a year cleaning it up. speaking at the motor show in birmingham, mr parkinson said ‘5,000 tons of rubbish is collected every year from the motorways’. independent radio news. it's tuesday september 18th 1990; first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. the african national congress faces a new crisis with the charging of winnie mandela, wife of the a n c deputy leader on four counts of kidnapping and four of assault. as david o'sullivan reports from johannesburg, the crisis comes as the a n c debates the future of negotiations with the government. the a n c was locked in a crucial national executive meeting to discuss the issues of township violence and the possible arming of it's members in the strife-torn zones. it's expected to discuss it's future involvement, if any, in negotiations with the south african government on power sharing, if the government doesn't take emphatic steps to stop the violence. but the meeting was only a few hours old when the news broke that winnie mandela would face serious charges arising out of the murder in january 1989 of 14 year old activist, stompie moeketsi seipei. seipei's killer gerry richardson was sentenced to death two months ago, during his trial, mrs mandela was implicated in the abduction of seipei and three others and their subsequent assault at her soweto home. the a n c has reacted calmly to the charges; it said mrs mandela shouldn't be given any special treatment, but western diplomatic sources in johannesburg said earlier today, ‘the trial will place strain on the negotiation process’. it appears unlikely the a n c is to make a political issue out of the attorney general's decision to put mrs mandela on trial. when the richardson sentence was handed down, a blaze of publicity focused on mrs mandela, appeared in the media. nelson mandela was quick to condemn this and indicated his wife should be given the chance to defend herself. they don't want to charge her so that she can have the opportunity of proving to the court that er she is innocent. it is a method of making the press charge my wife before she is even found guilty by the press. mrs mandela will appear in court on the 24th of september; the attorney general says he has received an undertaking from her lawyer that she will cooperate with the investigation and she will not be taken into custody. this is the fox report. an expert on south african affairs says the charges against mrs mandela could be a problem for nelson mandela and the a n c. professor jack spence of leicester university has just returned from a fact-finding tour of south africa. it would be an acute embarrassment to nelson mandela and to the national executive committee of the african national congress. it'll complicate negotiations between mr deklerk and mr mandela if at the same time as those negotiations continue, er mrs mandela is on trial which may of course be prolonged. in a sense i suppose, er what deklerk's government has demonstrated is that they are trying as it were to be impartial and not allow political considerations to influence their judgement about whether mrs mandela should go on trial. when i was in south africa the attorney general of the transvaal who has brought the charges made it abundantly clear that he was not er going to be influenced by er political issues, and i'm not surprised that he's taken the line that he does. except that it's significant that she has not been charged with being an accessory to the murder of stompie moeketsi er some months ago. you're listening the fox report, it's eight minutes past six. the chairman of rover cars has admitted the company is no longer a mass manufacturer. speaking at the motor show in birmingham, sir graham day said he doesn't want it to be. in spite of recent disappointing financial results, sir graham says the company in now doing well, but he's warning the workers there's no easy ride ahead, suggesting there'll be no reprieve for the cowley operations. it's been too easy to stick a label on us in the past which says volume car maker. now we produce erm about half a million or 550,000 units a year, that is not volume in world terms er we acknowledge that we compete in some of the volume sectors, but increasingly as our new products are introduced, we're very careful to put them in discrete market segments or in niches. so in that sense, we are not a volume car producer and er the company historically, i mean back through the seventies and sixties was a not very successful volume producer. we now believe we're becoming a, a much more successful er niche player. the h registration year hasn't been a good one so far for the car industry, but you have some successes. can it go on, this sort of success? well, we, we as you correctly say er with the whole industry had a, had a difficult august, i think the good news for rover is that we fell less in volume terms than most of the competition, and indeed we marginally increased our market share. so in comparative terms, we performed well er in august. er. i think that the competition will continue to increase, i mean this is not an industry where one has a soft trick and a lie down as we used to say in shipbuilding, i mean it really is a grind and a slog, and i think it's important for all of our employees to understand that er there never will come a point in time when we can say ‘right we've got that done, we can lie back’. generally busy traffic across the whole of oxfordshire and west buckinghamshire during the rush hour this evening, especially on the m40 though between junctions 2 and 7, it's very heavy traffic due to the various roadworks there in operation this evening, especially at junction 2 beaconsfield where the contraflow is in operation. on the buckinghamshire section of the m25 clockwise traffic at junction 16 with the m40 is still very heavy and slow due to the amount of traffic that is on the m25 this evening, most places along 25 are quite heavy. on the m4 junction 4b to 5, that's the m25 langley interchange, the inside lanes are closed in both directions for overhead cable work, and on the a34 just south of newbury, it's down to single lane traffic due to the roadworks between swan roundabout and sandalford roundabout but traffic's not too heavy there at the moment. on the a41 finally, london road in bicester in oxfordshire, the roadworks there by the level crossing with the temporary traffic lights are causing a fair bit of congestion this evening in both directions. mark rise, aa road watch. british rail tell us their services are running to schedule this evening and i've nothing to report to you from the bus services in the area. still to come; atlanta georgia is to host the 1996 olympics much to the chagrin of athens and manchester. first with a round up of the day's local news though, here's robin powell. a reward's now on offer for anyone who can help police track down a man who mugged a 64 year old woman paying respects in banbury cemetery. the incident happened between 1.30 and 2.40 on saturday afternoon; police want to speak to a young man seen on a pedal cycle in the area at the time. he's described as being in his late teens, 5' 8’ tall and of slim build. p c mike patching crime intelligence officer at banbury and head of the crime stoppers organization in the town, says it was a despicable crime. criminals aren't too bothered about the er problems they cause victims in the commission for their crime, but er as a general rule er they do draw a line somewhere, but i think to er rob a lady who is er presumably grieving over the loss of a relative, at the graveside, has got to be plumbing some new depth of er depravity and er i'll expect the erm vast majority of the citizens of banbury will think similarly. a man's been taken to hospital with a chest injury after a road accident near bicester. two cars collided outside a service station at baynard's green at about 2 o'clock this afternoon, one casualty was treated on the scene, the other was taken to oxford's john radcliffe hospital. a new traffic report published today says that the british public aren't satisfied with parking regulations and their enforcement. peter jones who's the deputy director of the traffic studies department at oxford university and the author of the report says that people don't think the rules governing parking are strict enough. it's clear that the majority of not only motorists but other road users, pedestrians, cyclists, bus passengers do feel that there are serious problems in urban areas, that they do need to be tackled and that one major thing that's necessary is better enforcement of existing regulations, particularly in two areas: one, drivers that drive badly and cause danger to others and secondly, the inconsiderate parker. an oxfordshire branch of a travel agency which has announced it's going out of business says it's continuing to trade. exchange travel in chipping norton will continue to do business in the meantime. but manager andrew taylor says the company is calling in an administrator. well the position which i've been told by my company directors is that we are still trading, er a er an administration order has been taken out and we are continually, continuing to trade and er that er rules. er. trust fund accounts have been set up for the protection of clients and their, and their moneys. finally buckingham mp george walden is writing to agriculture minister john gummer about the land war crisis, to tell him what local land farmers think about it. mr walden has spoken to farmers in his constituency about the issue and has been explaining what he'll be telling mr gummer. my farmers are very responsible about this, they don't want counter demonstrations against the french here; they certainly don't want a tax on french lorry drivers here, we've had one or two of those. er. they want the thing to be sorted out properly in brussels and they want the french authorities to be told in no uncertain terms that it's their job to control the activities of their farmers. it's a quarter past six. the southern american city of atlanta has been chosen as the venue for the 1996 olympic games. the announcement in tokyo has shattered the hopes of hot favourites athens and of course manchester which had spent £2 million campaigning to be the host. roy garner reports from tokyo. the i o c's choice of atlanta, georgia to host the centennial olympic games has not only shocked and disappointed the athens delegation here in tokyo, it has brought disappointment to the team from manchester who'd worked for several years to fulfil the dream of bringing the games to the u k for the first time since 1948. one of the leaders of the manchester bid team david scott told i r n that he also shared the concerns of some of the greek delegation that the choice of a u s venue reflected the influence of commercialism and big business in i o c decision making. er i'm slightly worried about the effect on the olympic movement of atlanta being chosen only in the sense that er that this is the, i think the sixth time in 25 years that a north american city has got it and it does look rather as if the er pressures are now, on the financial side, are now coming very much from the north american continent and i'm not at all sure that that's really good for the olympic movement. but they won a fair fight and they took a tremendous lot of trouble and they really did a very good campaign, there's no question about that at all. the disappointment in the athens camp has bordered on bitterness and i asked the mayor of atlanta, maynard jackson for his reaction to the words of one athens delegate who described the atlanta decision as a win for coca cola and a loss for the olympic ideal. well i'm sorry that the gentleman from athens said that, but we have to understand that people right now are going through some very strong feelings and i'm sure they're disappointed. but athens gave the games to the world, and we're looking at the next one hundred years and if the i o c wants to do something special with athens in ‘96 and if athens wants to do it, we assure them that atlanta will support that effort one hundred per cent. so the hundredth birthday party of the olympics — atlanta is the place for it? er i don't know how to answer that question, all i can say is we're going to put on the olympic games in ‘96 and we're going to make everybody, including athens i hope, proud. the i o c meet continues in tokyo until thursday when i o c president juan antonio samange will give an address on the present status of the olympic movement. you're listening to the fox report. as petrol prices are er reported to be rising again the oil companies are blaming the crisis in the gulf. there have been few new diplomatic moves though in baghdad today, meanwhile the families of two women shown in a video recorded in kuwait, are pleading with the iraqis to let them bring their newly born children home. jenny stenton and christine pedley were recorded by a palestinian doctor who was invited into kuwait by the iraqi authorities. james baize reports. the video was filmed by muhammad said, a palestinian doctor who was invited into kuwait by saddam hussein. the britons told him they want western governments to negotiate with iraq. i think my message really is quite clear. i do hope that very shortly er the governments can get round the table and sort out this crisis er in a diplomatic way. a similar message was given by trevor pedley from dudley whose wife christine gave birth to their first child at the weekend. but trevor's brother tony says the family doesn't believe he was allowed to speak freely. we feel that er trevor was virtually told what to say, er we don't think it was er a true picture of what er happened out there to be honest. if you can understand what i mean. what did he actually say in the video? well he, he didn't really say a lot, er they asked him a question and er he, he just turned round and said er we hope, we hope it's er a peaceful solution, that er virtually saying he hoped it didn't come to war, and christine turned round and said ‘yes we want a peaceful solution’. and that's all that was said on the video. i believe er christine is expecting a baby? er she's had the baby. my mother had a phone call from the foreign office and they just said that er christine had given birth to a baby girl, er we don't know much more about it, and that they're both fine. he says he's praying suddam hussein will show compassion and let the couple bring their baby daughter home. i'm in the flying fox and i've just spent some time hovering at just a thousand feet over bicester and the town centre looking good there. the two main approaches, that's the a41 from banbury the united nations assembly is now deciding the future of cambodia's status within the u n. the assembly's meeting in new york at the moment to decide whether cambodia's seat will be given to the newly agreed supreme national council; a move which would please many people and organizations such as oxfam and christian aid, who were opposed to the phol pot regime. today andrew smith, mp for oxford east, bruce kent, prospective parliamentary candidate for oxford west and abingdon and oxford authoress margaret drabble among many other well-known figures, showed their support for this measure in a full page newspaper advertisement. frank judd chairman of oxfam says he would like to see a number of new developments in the cambodian situation. hopefully we will see er khmer rouge with it's phol pot leadership removed from the seat at the u n, and the new supreme national council which is at least more representative of all the elements in er, er cambodia, taking it's place. we've launched this appeal today together with er christian aid, er cafod, the cambodia trust and world vision, er an appeal supported by many distinguished individuals including local people here in oxford itself, distinguished writers and politicians. and that appeal is really calling for three objectives: first that all member states of the united nations do all in their power to curb khmer rouge military aggression and the terrorizing of civilians, secondly that the british government should take the initiative in urging member states and the appropriate u n agencies to give essential development and reconstruction aid for cambodia and thirdly that the british government should do all within it's power to help secure the safety of the hundred thousand cambodian refugees in khmer rouge camps in thailand, by calling for their transfer to neutral camps under u n supervision. i might just add that what we are deeply disturbed by, is that as the fighting continues in cambodia with phol pot trying once again to get into control, already a hundred and fifty thousand people have been displaced by that fighting and that er the number of amputees has reached something like a thousand a month which is twice last year's figure. you yourself have visited the camps out there, and what are these people going through? well i've visited both cambodia itself and the camps, er first of all in the camps, the situation is appalling because there are very many people who do not want to be in those camps and are really in effect being held there against their will, and what has been extraordinary until this year, is that the people who've been holding them there against their will have been the phol pot dominated so-called coalition government and on the basis of the people being in the camps, that, that, that regime has gone on to claim recognition at the united nations; an appalling situation. so that we really do hope that when the news comes through today, it's going to be positive and the international community, if i can put it this strongly, will have come to it's senses and said this cannot go on, we must have a more representative political presence at the u n. you're listening to the fox report. government inspectors are to investigate rochdale social services after twenty children were taken into care following allegations of ritualistic abuse. seventeen adults were arrested in connection with the allegations, but greater manchester police have announced there's not enough evidence to bring criminal charges. health minister virginia bottomley says the inspectors will examine the overall practices of the rochdale department and not the individual cases as the children are wards of court. we're looking at the policies and procedures adopted by the local authority because decisions about those individual children are entrusted to the high court, the family division. those expert judges who make the complex and subtle decision about how best to protect the welfare of those individual children. it would not be right frankly, for ministers to issue edicts about particular children, whether they or not they should or shouldn't be in care. that is for the high court to do, not for ministers. but the police have announced that they aren't bringing criminal charges against er seventeen adults that were arrested in connection with these allegations. shouldn't the children be allowed to go home? it's a very important distinction and one that isn't properly understood: the police have to have clear concrete evidence on an offence. what the high court or what the local authority have to consider is how do we protect the welfare of those children? not only has there or hasn't there been ritual abuse or sexual abuse or physical abuse, but the context of neglect, deprivation or support; is this a child whose welfare will best be served. is it in that child's interest for it to go home or is it in the child's interest er for the responsibility to lie with the local authority or the high court? the different test, our aim, our priority, the key job is to protect the child's welfare. but the parents believe this is another cleveland. they say their children should be, should be brought home immediately. er parents predicament is understandable, there have been many tragedies in the past where local authorities perhaps took too much notice of the parents and too little of the children. some of the cases where children lost their lives, jasmine beckford, kimberly carlisle, tara henry, where somehow the child's need has slipped through the net. it's important to get the balance right, so we will be looking to make sure that the policies and procedures, not only follow our guidelines with regard to the welfare of the child, but do also make sure that the parents are fully involved er and informed about the process as it moves through. you're listening to the fox report. an oxford scientist says new information about the h i v virus which leads to aids could mean that a vaccination won't be forthcoming for a long time. doctor martin novak's team believes the virus doesn't lie dormant as had been thought up till now, but rather copies itself or mutates. doctor novak believes that eventually so many of the so-called mutants are created, that the human body's immune system can no longer fight against the disease. it's at this point that aids develops. this new virus now might have been mutated in such a way that the er antibodies which are present at, at the moment, are not able to recognize and destroy this new virus. and therefore the new virus can grow and the immune system again has to learn to suppress this virus. it sounds as if the virus is com, is impossible to hold down, could there be a vaccine created for such a changing virus? the problem with the aids vaccine might be that if you have a vaccine which would be able to suppress a particular virus strain er which would induce immunity against a particular virus strain, then necessarily you do not have a vaccine which can provide immunity against another virus strain. is there a chance if it changes so rapidly, that there could never be a vaccine for the whole strain, for the whole h i v virus. i think we have to learn a lot er of, of how to treat the aids virus, but er hopefully, er the scientists might succeed to find the vaccine. i think it's very difficult to assess at the moment whether or not it's impossible, i wouldn't say it's impossible. you're listening to the fox report. oxford's radcliffe infirmary has developed new technology that could save lives: it's called image link and it allows images from hospital scanners to be transmitted down the telephone line to a consultant at the infirmary. richard kerr is consultant neurosurgeon there, richard tell me a bit about this, what, what sort of things does it allow you to do now that you couldn't do in, in the past? it means that we can be involved straightaway with patient's management when they're admitted to hospitals within the oxfordshire region, and so decisions can be made between the referring doctors and ourselves as regards the best policy of treatment. so if for example, a patient was brought into banbury, they could use the scanners there, and that, the images on their scanner, you could actually see? we can, unfortunately banbury doesn't have a ct scanner, but there are many other hospitals in the region that's' a good example. and so we yes, we can use the information that we can see to advise on how best to treat the patient. now i know in some of the newspapers today it's been suggested that you would be doing sort of long distance surgery as it were, but that's not the case? no, it's not the case, they are x-ray images that we are looking at and it means that we can have er real time conversation with the doctors at the other end to advise whether the patient should be transferred to us or stay within the, in the hospital where they are, er whatever's best at the time. i suppose in the past, this sort of consultation was done just verbally on the telephone was it? yes, we would be dependent on the referring doctor's interpretation of the x-ray films, and they would relate that to us on the telephone and we would then have to form a, a mental image of what the problem was and then advise on how we thought things ought to go on. but this obviously makes it much easier for us to, to help straightaway. i know i said at the beginning that it could help save lives, am i er overstating the mark there? no i think it could save lives, because it means that we have immediate access er to what's going on and so on rare occasions, life and death decisions can be made down the telephone. now, now radcliffe infirmary has developed this, this er image link it's not a new idea, but there's a, a electronics engineer and computer er enthusiast called dermott dobson who's brainchild this particular technology is, and he basically put it together in his back room. er and then came forth to us with it. and it, it means that images can be transferred very rapidly, and the images that are transferred are of a very high quality. so at the moment this is only available at the radcliffe infirmary, is there, is it likely to go to hospitals in other parts of the country? it's, it's certainly er available nationally and i know there's been some international interest already as well. so you could have done research of er very clever nature in his back room basically? yes, he's a very bright chap dermott dobson. now i, i mentioned that you, you're a, a neurosurgeon, we were talking about neurosurgery, but does it have applications for other parts of, of medicine? wherever ct scans or the new mri scans or even ultrasound scans are involved in the management of patients, the images can be transferred down an image link. richard kerr, thank you very much. the motorways through oxfordshire and west buckinghamshire are quite er busy this evening, the m25 buckinghamshire section at clockwise junction 15 to 16 the m4/m40 interchange has very heavy slow traffic on it at the moment, it would be best to avoid that section if you can er to avoid fairly major delays this evening. on the m40 in buckinghamshire, london-bound traffic is very heavy and slow approaching the m25 interchange, due to the weight of traffic travelling on it this evening. on the m4, junction 1, that's the chiswick flyover, it's very heavy indeed in both directions, and on the m4, junction 4b with the m25 to junction 5 at langley, the inside lanes are still closed in both directions for overhead cable work and currently traffic is very heavy and slow in both directions. the a34 just south of newbury is still down to a single lane due to the roadworks there, between the swan roundabout and sandalford roundabout and the a41 london road in bicester has roadworks by the level crossing, temporary traffic lights there, expect some congestion which is reasonably bad at the moment, but it is beginning to clear in both directions. finally, in kidlington on the a423, langford lane at the junction with banbury road, the temporary traffic lights there for resurfacing work prior to the traffic lights being installed, are creating one or two delays this evening. mark rise a a roadwatch. but it's not too bad if you're on the trains or the buses, i've no delays to report. it's six thirty four. the cost of a gallon of petrol is going up again from tomorrow, shell is increasing the cost of the petrol by 3.2 pence a gallon to more than two pound thirty-four pence and other oil companies are thought likely to follow suit. the southern american city of atlanta has been chosen as the venue for the 1996 centennial olympic games, the announcement in tokyo has shattered the hopes of the sentimental contender athens and of manchester which spent £2 million campaigning to be the host. security forces in ulster have recovered the body of constable louis robinson near crossmaglen, he was abducted by the i r a at the weekend, interrogated and shot. meanwhile the i r a have admitted a serious of attacks on so-called soft targets in britain, including yesterday's shooting of an army sergeant outside a careers office in north london. the victim, bernard cox is recovering in hospital. fox f m's weather — it'll be a dry evening and most of the night, but towards morning rain will spread in to the banbury area extending down to the berkshire downs on wednesday morning. the minimum temperatures — 13x celsius, that's 55x fahrenheit with moderate south-westerly winds. it's six thirty five. drivers who pass their test in banbury in the next few months are being offered the chance to learn how to drive on the motorway. their instructors will be the real experts at the police driving school; it's part of a pilot scheme and if it's successful it could be extended throughout the area, and it's free. at the moment most drivers have no official training on how to cope with motorway conditions, i asked sergeant bill clarke from the forces driving school why it wasn't part of the driving test. there are still many areas in great britain where there are test centres who are an awful long way from the motorway, and at the moment, banbury is in that position, so the driving test would have to be at least something like 2 or 3 hours duration by the time they got out there and driven. there are also pitfalls of training; you can't just take someone on, on test and say ‘you are on test on the motorway’, that there's got to be training. now er as you appreciate at the moment, mum or dad can teach son or daughter to drive er without any real training other than what they've received in the past. is this a good idea or is a bad idea, so there are problems, yes the, the test, some people will say the driving test is out of date but i think at the moment it's the best we can offer given all circumstances. now how will people who have just passed their test know about your scheme? what we've done in the banbury test centre, everyone who gets the coveted pink slip will get a letter inviting them to ring us er on a telephone number where they can book their place on the driving course. there has been coverage with such as yourselves and er the local papers, and we are getting word of mouth enquiries now, but we, we have said it's for the newly qualified driver and since we've started this scheme, i would put newly qualified in inverted commas, because we've had two or three ladies ring us up who've had four and five years driving experience as such and they're frightened to death to go on a motorway and haven't been on a motorway. it's a very different style of driving. very different style of driving — not too difficult if you know the rules and the pitfalls. do you think people should have some form of training before they're allowed on the motorway, because, i mean once you've passed your driving test you can go out there on your own can't you? that's right and this is one of the biggest problems that we've got. er yes there should be some form of training, maybe people should be issued with a log book that they can cross off certain things. how the heck we prees it, police that sort of thing, i don't know. still to come — sample a little cardio-funk in oxford university press relaunches a classic series of paperbacks. first, financial report in association with barclays bank for your financial needs. continuing, continuing concerns over the soaring oil prices and the effect this will have on the u k economy dampened enthuses, enthusiasm on the u k exchanges this morning. small losses soon accelerated when the u s reported trade gap figures of 9.033 billion dollars, far worse than the city forecast. at the close of business, the one hundred index had managed to rally from it's low but still ended down 30.3 points at 2064 and volly remained light with only 379 million shares traded. in the u s the dow jones opened sharply lower and dealers marking down stop, stocks on the back of widening def, the widening deficit figure. at four thirty the dow jones index was off 33.42 points at 2533.91. on the currency front, the pound enjoyed a strong flourish, gaining 1.4 cents against the dollar to 1 dollar point 9195 and pushing .87 of a pfennigs firmer to 2 deutschmarks point 9704. british aerospace was amongst the features today when it lost 12 pence to four hundred and fif, five hundred and forty one pence on rumours that the saudis had cancelled some tornado options. amongst the major shares, abbey national are down 1 at 212, and as i've just mentioned, british aerospace went down 12 to 541, british airways were down 2 at 158, british gas were down 2 at 217, british steel down 2 at 119, british telecom down 9 at 276, rolls royce down 5 to 175 and t s b down 2 at 119. you're listening to the fox report, and senior employers in oxfordshire have won a £7 million government contract to improve local skills and prosperity. the contract's been awarded to the heart of england training and enterprise council, which says the money will enable them to train local people and help them set up and run businesses. chairman of the oxfordshire branch of the council, julian blackwell has been telling robin powell that he's delighted. we're very pleased, we put in about 18 months really hard work on this, we've er done our development funding, we've put in our plan which is said to be one of the best plans in the country, we worked very hard, we're very pleased. £7 million is not to be sniffed at, what's that going to be spent on? most of that will go on delivering the programmes er and most of that is existing funding and so we're going to have to use a lot of it on that, but we want to do new things as well. i think our real job is to change the attitudes of everybody from school governors, head teachers, teachers, parents, young people, employers and employees to education and training. you see we're way behind from about sixteen onward, we're way behind the foreign competition, and you may say ‘competition, what competition?’. there may be now perestroika, everybody teaming up over the middle east problem, but we are actually at war economically with all the countries outside this country and most of them, the young people are better trained, people, and better educated, longer educated, higher standards and also at work, there is much more training at work. the germans are a generation ahead of us with their apprenticeship and their meister or master system; we've got to try and catch up. the government has been criticized in the past over training, that there is a skills gap between us and the rest of say the european community. isn't this an indication that the government is trying to do something for training in this country? yes, they have been doing a number of things in the past, i think the y t s or new youth training as it is now, was a good thing, it had a lot of criticism. they have been spending a lot of money on training, but what they're doing now is localizing it, so training for oxfordshire, which is different from training for somewhere like liverpool, it's got a lot more unemployed, it's now not in the hands of the old training agency or manpower service commission, and we are looking at it completely afresh. you're listening to the fox report; sport now and starting with football, there's a host of matches involving sides in the fox f m area tonight. in league division 2, oxford united are away to plymouth argyll, the manager brian horton may spring a surprise and include john durning who is fit again. the ewes have lost their last three league games. in the premier division of the vauxhall league, aylesbury united are at home to wokingham town and in division 2, er division 2,2 south that is, abingdon town meet ruislip manor at culham road. witney town replay their f a cup first qualifying round tie against tilbury at marriot's close, while in the same competition, two teams from the fox f m area clash at fort meadow where buckingham town are facing brackley town. the match is also our featured game in tonight's red fox and covering the match is mickey ianotta . mickey what's it looking at like, er up there at the moment, are the crowds arriving? they are indeed. one of buckingham town's biggest ever gates in their history is expected for this local derby cup tie,jane gripping stuff indeed, and buckingham, they start as favourites needless to say. they're beezer homes material whereas brackley town, they're not. but having said that of course, brackley, they have nothing to lose; looking at the two sides, the majority of the players would you believe it are ex of banbury united a side, you can never keep out of the news jane. in fact i'm surprised they never made a bid to stage the next olympics. and also playing for brackley, a name that won't mean much to you, is clifford heath. he came up to me a few moments ago and said ‘do you remember me?’ i said ‘no’. he said' i was in 4j with you at drayton hall in banbury’. so there's a surprise. absolutely fascinating mickey. erm this is a replay am i right in thinking? sorry jane? is this, is this a replay? that's right, it is a replay. so they, so they've drawn before? yes, they drew one all on saturday with a nervy type of game, a player got sent off, so it's all to play for again tonight. now er the buckingham manager, phil lines was manager of brackley and er apparently, as you've told me in the past, he guided them to their best ever season. er. are the other side a little bit upset that they've lost him? well they are, it's a long story, again it brings banbury in it again because when phil was at banbury a few years ago, he left to join brackley town. not only did he take about half a dozen players, he took the manager, the tea lady and the backroom staff, and for all i know, the main stand, because that's not at banbury any more. and he did the same thing at brackley town, he guided them to success, their best ever season, he's gone to buckingham town, took a few players with him, so brackley town, they're not too pleased and they're going to be out to beat buckingham town tonight, but i'm going to sit on the fence and go for buckingham 3 1. well that sound like sitting on the fence to me mickey. we'll hear from you again throughout the evening on the red fox and we'll find out how it's really going. rugby union now, and mark eagon, the oxford university rugby captain has invited errol norwitz who gained blues in 1988 and 1989, to be his vice-captain for the coming term which includes the university's pre-season tour of the far east which began last week. catching up with the latest news of the boys here's mickey ianotta again. business into liquidation and throwing people out of jobs. thieves steal historic chair from stanton harcourt manor. monetarily, i haven't any idea what it's worth, er it's not everybody's cup of tea, it is a cockfighting chair, but it's very very interesting. and an oxford university academic says no to admitting students on sports ability alone. the fundamental requirement must in the end of any prestigious academic institution, to be a place where academic standards are maintained. the six o'clock news, this is annie webster. petrol prices are set to go up again; traders in the world oil market still worrying over a war in the gulf, today pushed their prices to their highest for ten years, at more than forty dollars a barrel. the rise sent shares to new lows in the city only hours after dealers had cheered up briefly at britain's better than expected trade figures. although britain is still well in the red, the latest deficit's down to one point one billion pounds, that's the smallest trade gap this year and a big improvement on the july figure of one point seven billion pounds. even so, labour's trade spokesman gordon brown says the figures are no comfort for the chancellor john major, who's still facing huge problems with britain's economy. the tragedy is, we've done nothing about the exclusive reliance on interest rates, we've done nothing about the continuing erosion of jobs, and particularly so in the regions, er and this government has er wasted the summer months; when it could have taken action it has merely compounded the problems that are of it's own creation in the mismanagement of the economy. president gorbachev has been granted extensive new powers as the soviet union prepares to switch to a market economy. but once again, the soviet deputies have postponed making a decision on exactly how the new system will be introduced. from moscow, sue jameson reports: president gorbachev will now be able to push through some of the most unpalatable parts of a programme to take the country into a new era governed by market forces. he said the powers were necessary to make a real change in people's lives even though earlier, deputies yet again failed to back immediate implementation of the five hundred day plan to transform the economy. however, many in the republics including russian president boris yeltsin, will be wary of the powers and fear their burgeoning independence is under a new threat. sue jameson, i r n moscow. the environment secretary, chris patten has suffered his most serious defeat yet in his battle with local authorities over poll tax levels. the court of appeal has blocked his attempt to force lambeth council to obey government charge-capping orders. simon israel reports: the government had imposed a limit of four hundred and ninety-three pounds, but lambeth, predicting that fifteen percent of people wouldn't pay, revised that level to five hundred and twenty-one pounds. the three appeal judges ruled that lambeth was right and it's labour leader, joan twells says it's an important victory. parliament did not give the secretary of state the power to fix poll tax levels. he's told everybody he was fixing poll tax levels, and he hadn't got the power to do that. the government was ordered to pay all legal costs and the court refused the environment secretary leave to appeal to the house of lords. the high court has appointed a senior judge to hear the cases of wardship involving twenty children taken into care after allegations of satanic child abuse. from the court hearing, helen costello: sir steven brown, the president of the high court family division said the case involving the children had attracted a great deal of publicity. he said justice douglas brown, an experienced high court judge would hear all cases involving twenty children and six families. solicitor for the families, joanna kay revealed after the hearing that two children would now be allowed access visits. just as regards two children, that was all agreed by the parties. a date for the hearing has yet to be set. helen costello i r n, the high court, london. a task force appointed by the government to balance the needs of tourism and the environment, has held it's first meeting in westminster abbey. the team's looking for ways of improving tourist facilities at historic sites without causing damage to the environment. and police in paris have arrested an art thief who had a knack of strolling into galleries and then strolling out again with some of their most valuable works of art. tim marshall reports: armed only with a false beard, a small knife and a lot of cheek, mr vendu would cut the paintings out of their frames and walk off with them; he even took a renoir from the louvre. when police raided his house, they found a fifteenth century bastiano which he'd stolen from a gallery in venice last week. after explaining his love of art, he gave the police the opportunity to see some classic paintings for themselves by directing them to his parent's house in lyons where they recovered the renoir and several other works. tim marshall, i r n, paris. independent radio news. it's monday, september the twenty fourth, nineteen ninety. first a look at some of today's main stories. oil prices are moving to a record high, the stock market is moving lower. but there's been better economic news today on britain's trade; the trade gap in august was the smallest so far this year, just one thousand, one hundred and thirty million pounds in the red, nearly six hundred million better than last month. here's robin amlow: it's a silver lining the chancellor desperately needs amidst the current spate of doom and gloom, most recently this weekend c b i report showing industry in recession. in some way, those trade figures reflect that recession; they've improved because of a drop in imports while exports are still rising. it's the first sign the chancellor's squeeze is actually having the desired effect, not just on industry, but on the country's achilles heel, and brings nearer the day when the chancellor can cut interest rates, but probably not before christmas. shadow chancellor, john smith says that's both stubborn and short-sighted. he says rates must be cut if britain's to avoid a slump and become competitive in europe. our interest rates are almost double those of the germans and almost double those of the united states. how are we going to get the investment up for nineteen ninety-two? how are we going to prepare ourselves for that competitive market er if our interest rates are such that they're starving industry of it's investment and pushing business after business into liquidation and throwing people out of jobs? liberal democrat leader, paddy ashdown says the improved trade figures mean britain should now join europe's exchange rate mechanism as soon as possible. he says chancellor john major should ignore mrs thatcher's prejudices. the battle between the prime minister, the split indeed between the prime minister and the chancellor which is a re-run of the appalling split between her and nigel lawson which is the origins of our present problem, is something that must be brought under control. it's a time when the chancellor of the exchequer must put britain first and the prime minister's private prejudices and the good of the tory party second. you're listening to the fox report. well, those trade figures were better than expected, which was good news after yesterday's warning from the chancellor john major that britain could be heading for a recession. although that, the country is still well in the red, the latest deficit, as i mentioned earlier is rather better than the trade gap that was reported in july. david goldsworthy is from halpern and woolf; david, what do these trade figures mean? i mean we've got the chancellor saying we're going into recession, and now, now we seem to have some good news. where do we stand? we have some good news, yes, but it's not going to have any immediate benefit on the man in the street — the local trader. er. it did result in er an improvement in the share situation and in the er strength of the pound, but i understand the share prices have dropped rapidly again following further news of oil price increases. as regards recession, it's interesting the chancellor is at least admitting that we're close to it. er. we at halpern and woolf believe the recession has been with us for some months already; the c b i takes the same view and they're pressing for interest rate reductions now to restore business confidence. the recession really has crept up on us and it's strangling companies and businesses at quite a frightening rate. are we talking about just small businesses or is it happening across the board? it's happening principally with the small and medium size businesses because they're the first to suffer. they suffer principally because the companies whom they are supplying tend to take extended credit in paying their bills, er so that their problems are not entirely of their own making. it doesn't mean they in themselves could not be profitable but simply that they have these cash flow problems. now we all know the word recession; we've heard of it before, but, but what does it actually mean? recession — well, the classic definition of recession as quoted by john major in washington, is two successive quarters of reduction in production. right, so it's er basically businesses aren't doing as well? businesses aren't doing as well no, that, that's the definition. how do you, how do you feel about the future now, i mean we've heard various people say interest rates must come down — you just said interest rates must come down, but when do you realistically think they could come down? well, er the c b i and other bodies are pressing for them to come down at once, er john major has said it's only a question of time. er. he is being cautious and hoping the suffering caused by his high interest rates is part of the cure for the inflation which was previously existing. now we also heard today that the oil prices are rising again, does it, does this have a bearing on the whole thing it certainly has a bearing, er it, it has a bearing in two directions, it causes price increases and cost increases at the same time for the producers, so that at the same time as there are price increases, increasing inflation, there is a reduction in production. so should firms be very alarmed by the figures now? i think firms are not going to take any great comfort from it immediately, certainly, i don't think any more alarmed that they have already been. david, thank you very much indeed. britain is to send four ships which took part in the falklands war, to carry the desert rats to the gulf: sir tristram, sir galahad, sir bevedere and er sir bedevere and sir percival are expected to start picking up tanks from west germany in the next few weeks. the announcement of the new deployment came from the gulf, from where our defence correspondent paul maurice reports: four landing ships haven't been used operationally since the falklands war; then sir tristram was badly damaged at port san carlos and at fitzroy where her sister ship sir galahad was destroyed with the loss of more than fifty lives. the four roll-on, roll-off military ferries have specially strengthened vehicle decks and are designed to put tanks and other armoured vehicles ashore on beaches in remote areas where landing docks and slipways are not available. although it's not yet certain exactly where the british armoured forces will be deployed, the four landing ships are expected to join up with the twelve-strong royal navy patrol in the gulf of amman. the landing ships are expected to be fitted with two twenty metre cannons each for the dangerous and vulnerable trip up to the gulf. but tornado fighter bombers from saudi arabia and linked helicopters from the warships will provide the majority of the defence against attack from the air and the sea. you're listening to the fox report, it's ten minutes past six, i'm jane markham. traffic's very slow-moving on the m four westbound at junction six and on the m twenty-five, that's between junctions fifteen and sixteen between the m four and the m forty, traffic's very slow-moving in both directions. the m forty at junction two, there's a contra-flow now in operation with two narrow lanes in both directions and you'll find the westbound entry slip road closed. the a four two three at hopcroft's halt, there are temporary traffic lights and er on the a forty oxford northern by-pass there are lane closures westbound between marston flyover and cherwell bridge. and on the a four two two, stratford to alcester, there are temporary traffic lights at taylor's wood which might slow you down a little. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. british rail tell us the london paddington to liverpool train service which is, is due at oxford at six fifty-five tonight's going to be starting from reading instead; that's going to confuse a few people. otherwise there are now further problems to report on the buses or trains. still to come, the prison officers association warns there's going to be more violence in our prisons, and thieves steal historic relics from stanton harcourt manor in oxfordshire. first with a round-up of the day's local news, here's paul kirby: magistrates in didcot have today been hearing more cases against non-payers of the poll tax. south oxfordshire district council have prosecuted two hundred and fifty non-payers today. of these, two hundred and forty-four had liability orders issued against them, while six cases were adjourned. today's cases are significant as the court allowed the help of so-called mackenzie's friends in to the court to give help. courts in banbury, woodstock and aylesbury have so far refused to allow the so-called friends to give advice. police in north oxfordshire believe the same thieves may have been behind two separate raids within a few miles of each other at steeple aston; both raids were part of a spate of break-ins reported to police in the fox f m area. abby donald reports: detectives say they're almost certain the same people were behind the two break-ins carried out in a north oxfordshire village. the first netted them a quantity of antique and model jewellery as well as silverware and oil paintings valued at over twenty thousand pounds. the second, also this weekend, resulted in thieves getting away with a further five thousand pound's worth of silver jewellery. officers at banbury c i d say they're particularly eager to hear from anyone who may have spotted people in the area this weekend. a north oxfordshire racehorse trainer has dismissed calls for tighter security at courses to crack down on race fixing. the jockey club confirmed today that two favourites in this year's st leger at doncaster had been drugged to ensure they wouldn't win. scientists believe the horses were doped at stables near the racecourse and want security stepped up, but banbury based trainer john webber thinks the jockey club has over-reacted. i don't personally think that there's very much wrong with the security, i don't see how you can increase it much more. you can't get into the stables without signing in. there's always going to be a small percentage of people that are open to temptation isn't, aren't there? i mean after all, you can't say the british banking system is no use because occasionally a bank gets robbed. oxford schoolchildren have been taking a peek behind the scenes at sainsburys today as part of the green consumer day. thirty pupils from lark's rise primary school were given a green tour of the store to see how they protect the environment, but laura, gregory and rose were clear about the best part of their day. the check out because we had a go on it and it was quite fun. going behind the doors that you're not allowed to go through, go through and seeing what the sainsbury is, has got behind the doors, the magical doors. fox f m news paul kirby reporting. winnie mandela has appeared in court in soweto to be formally charged on four counts of kidnapping and four counts of assault with intent to commit grievous bodily harm. the case arises out of the death of fourteen year old activist, stompie moeketsi. his killer who was one of mrs mandela's bodyguards, was sentenced to death for his, for his murder. during that trial, mrs mandela was implicated in an assault on moeketsi. david o'sullivan was in court at today's trial in johannesburg. winnie mandela was grim-faced as she and her husband arrived at the soweto magistrates court. a group of over a hundred supporters sang songs in honour of them: ‘mandela, you are like no other man’, they sang. the court hearing lasted just over an hour. accused number eight, as mrs mandela will be known for the duration of the trial, muttered barely inaudible replies to the magistrate who made sure she was following the proceedings. nelson mandela sat stony-faced in the front row of the public gallery. the court hearing was taken up mainly by the formal reading out of the charges, and brief argument about when the trial should proceed in the rand supreme court in johannesburg. the prosecutor wanted the trial to resume on october the thirtieth, but the magistrate accepted mrs mandela's lawyer, ishmael eyob's reasons for a later trial date. mr eyob said he didn't have enough time to prepare the defence case, and mrs mandela will be overseas with her husband on october the thirtieth. the magistrate set down a trial date of the fourth of february. mrs mandela was released on her own recognisance. the mandelas were mobbed by the waiting crowd outside the courtroom, many were women from the a n c's women's league, wearing the a n c colours of black, green and gold. if the mandelas were feeling any strain from the trial, it wasn't evident; they smiled broadly as they were escorted by the dancing, chanting crowd to their waiting car. you're listening to the fox report, it's seventeen minutes past six. prison officers are warning of violence in britain's jails on an even greater scale than strangeways if the government doesn't give them more resources. in a report, the wolf enquiry into this year's prison disturbances, they're demanding more officers, a legal minimum standard of accommodation for inmates and an independent omb, an independent ombudsman for prisoner's complaints. since the problems at strangeways, prison violence has rarely appeared in the headlines, but john bartell, chairman of the prison officers association says that doesn't mean violence in our jails has decreased. we've not had vivid examples such as strangeways, but on a daily basis, er the violence within the prison system continues. officers continue to be assaulted, prisoners er continue to er commit suicide and almost every weekend there is tension in one part of the system or another. we er teeter on the edge of er a crisis virtually at the end of every day and if action is, and strong action is not taken very very quickly, er we have no doubt whatsoever, that the already serious level of, of er incidents within the prison system will escalate totally out of control. so in your recommendations to, to the wolf enquiry, what, what do you think is most important? well, three major issues or three important issues: firstly the introduction of minimum standards, also the recruitment of the three thousand staff that we now need er to er complement our prisons and also the introduction of an ombudsman. er. we believe it's high time that both er prison staff and prisoners were able er to seek er an independent outside view, er whenever there are difficulties. clearly the riots and the er secrecy that the home office tried to surround those riots with, er show that we do have to have an ombudsman. now you seem to be laying a great deal of stress on the introduction of minimum standards, what, what's the point behind that and what does it mean? unfortunately, officers are in a position of sometimes telling a prisoner at the end of a week, that you can't have a bath or a shower and there is no change of clean underwear. obviously, prisoners do not like that and officers are on the receiving end. we don't believe that's our job or our function. you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty minutes past six, i'm jane markham. it's six twenty one. thieves have struck at the home of oxfordshire's high sherrif, stealing priceless heirlooms and vandalising property. raiders broke into the grounds of stanton harcourt manor on thursday night, the home of sir crispin gascoigne. they took a chair which belonged to the eighteenth century english poet, alexander pope who'd lived there while writing the first english translation of homer's iliad. the right honourable anne gascoigne says the losses are irreplaceable. from the chapel they've taken the thing that we're sorriest about, which is the cockfighting chair that alexander pope the poet used the two summers that he spent working here in what's now called pope's tower, translating the fifth volume of homer's iliad. and just how important is that piece? well historically it's very important. er. monetarily, i haven't any idea what it's worth, er it's not everybody's cup of tea, it is a cockfighting chair and it's not particularly beautiful but it's very very interesting. they've taken three oil paintings; two off the walls and one which was leaning up against the window sill, er the candlesticks and the vases off the altar, another very beautiful, very simple oak chair with cane seat and back. have you any idea what sort of people could have taken this and when it could have happened? well we know that it must have happened overnight, er we were open until six o'clock on thursday evening. everything was checked and locked up and it must have gone during the late night or early morning, thursday night/friday morning. do you suppose this is the work of antiques experts? i think they must have known what they were coming for and this i'm afraid, is one of the penalties of being open to the public. but it does make one very depressed er that people can vandalise and er infiltrate er a sacred place and take all sorts of things which quite honestly are not of a great deal of value to anybody else. do you intend to keep the manor and the chapel open? we have no choice; when my father died in nineteen seventy-nine i had to come to an arrangement with the capital taxes office, that, er for not paying the full value of the er death duties on the value of the contents of the house, i had to open it to the public, quite frankly, if then and even more now, if i had to pay the full amount, i'd have had to sell everything which my family have collected over the last seven hundred years. you're listening to the fox report. well, we're now well into the party conference season and the greens are at wolverhampton this week. there's been a mixed agenda today ranging from animal rights to the palestinian question and mike woodin is the prospective parliamentary candidate for oxford west and abingdon, he's been er at the conference proceeding this afternoon. mike, what, what's been going on there today? well i've just come out of the debate which has just finished on the palestine and israel situation and er we passed the voting paper which will become policy for the party, calling for er a non-violent solution recognising the p l o and urging the u n to facilitate negotiations between israeli government and the p l o. er. and this has been put in place alongside our position on the gulf to complete our policy on the middle east where we were condemning the hypocrisy of the western nations who have been supplying the third world with arms and then going in there, fighting er just to maintain access to the oil. we believe this is a resource war and er there should be in no way er national troops fighting about it, any action should be taken by the united nations. now, was there a consensus of opinion, is, is the green party conference a conference where people have, have active debates or, or was it generally er a peaceful affair as it were? we have a very lively time at conference, we er conduct our business very differently from most of the party conferences, most of the work is done before the main debates in workshop sessions. the papers are all subjected to these for several conferences before they're voted on and we lay great emphasis on achieving consensus on any motion, and i think today on the palestine/israel debate, which is obviously a very contentious issue, it went through in about half an hour, very calmly, very peacefully, because a lot of hard work had been done. i think it was a tribute to consensual politics which is so rare of course with our other adversarial system that we have in britain. now some people, even though the green party has er been an established party for some time now, might feel that er it, this is the green party perhaps coming of age because it doesn't sound like a green issue, you're, you're discussing things across the board at the moment aren't you well, yes, i mean green politics do go to every area of life, obviously er we can't devolve the er environment from the rest of our activities. the way we run our economy is the prime cause of environmental damage, now what the other parties are failing to see is that if we want to live in a truly ecological society, one that really recognises the constraints, er that the environment imposes on us, we have to have a consistent approach to every area of policy, so for example, in the israel/palestine conflict er debate, we have laid great stress on our, er advocating our own approach to conflict resolution, consensual approach, negotiations condemning the arms build-up which is inspired mainly by the u s, and so er whilst we have also debated some other more overtly environmental policies such as reaffirming our commitment to phase out nuclear power, we do lay great emphasis on er developing economic policies, particularly in the light of the up and coming general election and we want to obviously present a complete platform of policies to the electorate. now there is another day to go on the conference. that's right. do you know what's going to be happening tomorrow? yes, we have er debate on a major policy paper on natural resources and how to er conserve them, how to make sure that we get away from the madness of the consumer society that we have at the moment; er laying down a strategy for the er the use of the earth's resources er into the twentieth century. we have obviously at every conference a certain amount also of constitutional motions, er an organizational motion, and some, and some of tomorrow will be taken up with that as well as the announ, er announcement concerning the elections for the various committees. but we have a range of emergency motions and one in particular that er will be a full motion on the gulf which will develop our policy er further so that we can put a clear message across. at the end of the liberal democrats concert, er concert conference we had all sorts of singing and er jollifications, do the greens do this in, on their final day? er there is obviously a certain party atmosphere at conferences, it's the one big chance of the year for many many hard-working activists to get together and share ideas, it does engender er a certain amount of frivolity er around the edges, so we'll see some of that, but we don't go in for this cult of leadership which the other parties do, you won't see any manufactured longstanding ovations for er leaders. we don't go in for this, this cult er type of politics. so our politics are serious and er we have good fun as well. mike thank you very much. thanks. the initial results of an independent study on oxford and it's traffic problems have been put on show in the city today. the study, commissioned by the oxford preservation trust, pinpointed several areas of concern including high levels of pollution in the city centre. the trust hopes the survey, which is conducted by a transport expert, dr carmen hausclau , will prompt more efforts to solve the notorious problems experienced by local commuters, as moira haines, the trust secretary explains: the middle of oxford is a pretty unpleasant place to be, and we're hoping very much that it's going to be a sort of signpost er to the county council's greater study which was agreed last tuesday. now there's a number of recommendations in the study, and that includes the introduction of a twenty mile an hour speed limit, surely that's going to cause more problems than it solves? well, i hope not. of course it will be difficult because at the moment the er the legal minimum is thirty miles an hour in, in any city, but we'd like to see oxford as a pilot for a twenty mile an hour speed limit which is no good if you leave the roads as they are. but if you widen the pavements and you differentiate the pavements from the roadway, and you use continental traffic calming measures which are not great big humps but which are perhaps little stretches of cobbles and things like that, then you should be able to bring the speed down to twenty miles an hour. it'll have to be enforced though. what else do you think could be done to help improve the situation in oxford which does have a reputation. it does doesn't it? er well, the first thing to do, and as carmen hausclau says, there are far too many motor vehicles milling round the centre, is to make it more attractive to come into oxford some other way. she is not very enthusiastic about the light rail proposals, but er she sees the park and ride as an excellent idea, but as she said, it's not exactly inviting to leave your car in er a car park which is not necessarily big enough, which hasn't got a proper surface, isn't properly lit, isn't supervised, has great big notices up that say there are thieves about, and where the bus service stops at half past six. so, what exactly is the next step, now you have these interim results? well, the next step is, we would very much like the public to let us know what they think of some of her ideas, like turning cornmarket into northbound only, like the twenty mile an hour speed limit and some of her ideas for high street. we have this morning put up a small display in the central library in westgate, where people can pick up a leaflet er which summarises what she says and also consult if they wish, the whole report, it's in the reference library. er. and we would like people to let us know what they think. you're listening to the fox report, it's half past six. traffic's very slow on the m four westbound at junction six, that's the turnoff for slough and on the m twenty five in both directions, between junctions fourteen and sixteen, there's very heavy and slow moving traffic, that's between heathrow and the m forty. and on the m forty itself at junction two there's a contraflow now in operation with two narrow lanes only in both directions and you'll also find the westbound entry slip road closed. the a four two three, hopcroft's halt, there are temporary traffic lights there which continue to cause delays, particularly to northbound traffic. and on the a forty, oxford northern by-pass, there are lane closures westbound between marston flyover and the cherwell bridge. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. the only problem i've to tell you about from british rail is the fact that the london paddington to liverpool train service which is due at oxford at six fifty-five, is starting from reading tonight instead of er london paddington, otherwise no problems on the buses or trains. it's six thirty two. oil prices have soared above forty dollars a barrel, their highest level in a decade, which is almost certain to provoke another round of petrol price increases. the price has doubled since iraq invaded kuwait and now it's going up fast though with traders convinced that a war in the gulf is inevitable. shares crashed to new lows in the city on the news, which came just hours after the release of britain's better than expected trade figures, though britain is still well in the red, the latest deficit's down to one point one billion dollars. president gorbachev has been granted extensive new powers to help the soviet union move towards a market economy, but deputies in the soviet parliament have again postponed a decision about how to introduce the new system. and police have suggested that soccer fans should be charged a hooligan levy when buying their match tickets, the money would go towards the cost of security at soccer grounds. the weather for the fox area: scattered heavy showers are gradually going to die away during the evening to leave the night dry with skies becoming mainly clear, so it will be rather cold with the temperature dropping to a dawn low of around five degrees celsius — that's forty-one degrees fahrenheit. still to come: two students from the eastern bloc start courses at oxford poly today as part of the new scholarship scheme. first though, a severely disabled woman from oxford says every time she travels by train, she's put in the guard's van. sylvia pedder from headington in oxford uses a wheelchair and despite efforts by british rail to update their trains, she says often she has to travel for hours on end on her own. phil kirby reports: sylvia pedder sometimes has to go as far as cumbria to see her relatives. on one occasion she sat alone for six hours travelling up to carlisle. sylvia says she finds the experience humiliating. i'm put in the guard's van and sometimes the guard doesn't even come to see if i'm alright. she's written to her m p, andrew smith, and at the start of this year, british rail allowed her into the buffet car. british rail chairman sir bob reid has written expressing his sympathy, but b r's brian johnson said it'll be a while before he can guarantee sylvia pedder won't have to travel in the guard's van. well we're at the moment in the process of er providing disabled accommodation on all intercity trains. er. we're about half way through the process at the moment, and as of today, it does depend which train she travelled on from oxford as to whether it's actually been converted with the disabled accommodation or whether er it's not yet provided. but the problem still exists and sylvia's carer, barbara waddington says she believes with so few trains apparently unable to fit the wheelchair on to the train, british rail ought to ensure that sylvia can travel in more comfort. well i feel that sylvia should have the right as anyone else, as any other able person to travel in the right manner, as a passenger in the buffet car or, or or anywhere else on the train and not have to be, have to go in the guard's van. british rail insist the whole problem though regrettable, will be ironed out within nine months. you're listening to the fox report. an oxford academic is condemning plans to bring gifted young sportsmen to the university, because he says the academic level would suffer. dr paul hayes who's tutor in modern history and politics at keble college in oxford said it would create an appalling precedent bringing students, as thick as two short planks to the university. dr hayes' remarks come in reaction to plans put forward by sports captains at the university, to encourage top athletes to apply to oxford. he says it isn't a good idea. this would put applicants in a very false position, perhaps drive away very talented applicants who might think that there were fewer places available for them, but also to encourage people who might in fact be struggling to go to any university in the country, it might encourage them to apply and to have a reasonable expectation of success because their sporting abilities were outstanding, they would then be disappointed because they would not be admitted and if they were admitted at that level, they would probably have a very unfortunate time at oxford. they would be regarded by their contemporaries as people who should not er be there, who are only there because of their sporting abilities. they would be perhaps regarded as thick as two short planks, er they would not be happy, they would be struggling to do work that was not honestly within their capacities, that being the case, they would almost certainly have to go down from the university. don't you think a better class of sportsman, whatever their intellectual abilities, would give the university a higher profile? well, it probably would; it's a question of what kind of profile one wants a university to have. a university is after all fundamentally an academic institution, world famous universities of course have all sorts of other attributes er for example, er theatres er as well as er sports grounds and that is just as true in this country as it is for example in the united states or australia or even in the non-english speaking world. but the fundamental requirement must in the end, of any prestigious academic institution, to be a place where academic standards are maintained. you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty two minutes to seven. two students from eastern europe have started courses at oxford polytechnic today. jana bursa is from potsdam near berlin and natasha kaminskaya is from moscow. it's all part of a new scholarship scheme which has been initiated to mark the parting of the iron curtain. william turner is head of international relations at the poly — william is this your baby, as it were? i wish it were, but it's actually the director's baby and he came up with this wonderful idea er at the time when the wall was beginning to crack. so, two scholarships, what sort of things, i mean er what sort of things will they be studying? well, it's only one scholarship for germany, but er two girls, in fact one from as you know, russia. er. this particular young lady jana bursa is studying food science and nutrition with us er she's already actually started her course back in berlin, so this is a kind of continuation, a bit of a sandwich. she will go back eventually to continue her studies there. jana, how long will you be in england? only for this one year here. a whole year? the whole year over, yes. you've started today, it, it must be rather frightening, rather different. yes, because er in the university when i was studying at home, we have not er this tutor system like here and so it's really strange, but i think it's a good idea of, er talking to your lecturers as equal people. so, you, you, what happens in university in, in germany, you, you have big classes, no, no individual tutors? no, we have er all students of one year studying one subject had er lectures together, and then we have seminars and er that's why the whole students group of one year is divided in seminar groups and the seminar groups are about thirty people in, in one group and the seminars, when you have seminars there are only three people, and er now your english is very good. i imagine that was very important, er otherwise you wouldn't understand what your tutors were telling you. how, er was there a lot of competition for this scholarship? i don't know but i do. was there a lot of competition? there was a fair amount of competition, so in fact she er was selected on merit and on her interests which matched very nicely with our course that we run. so it's, it's a year, er what, what part of the course has, has jana come in on — the first year or is she somewhere in the middle? well, because we have a very flexible course, a modular course which is made up of units, it's, it's possible to almost fit anybody into our course, so in fact she's met one of our specialists and the analysis had been done of what she's done before, what she wants to do in the future to try and match up the whole thing; only she knows exactly what she's doing. brilliant, so, you, this is, this year, is this scholarship going to continue in future years or is it just a one off? yes and no, er i, there won't be another east german scholarship because there won't be another east germany er next year it will disappear, it will just not exist, which er i think what we're really celebrating, the fact that we now have freedom of movement of young people from what was the eastern bloc will now just be eastern europe, er into the west in the same way that western students can travel around. so what it might develop in, into is er wider scholarship for travel. well jana, we wish you all the best with your course. thank you. still to come a look at the day's sport, first financial report though in association with barclay's bank for your financial needs. the london market opened weaker today as the chancellor john major underlined his determination to keep interest rates high despite calls from the c b i to reduce them. further to this was the fresh rise in crude oil prices as the situation in the gulf seemed to worsen. the better than expected august trade figures removed some of the gloom in the market however there was no buying after stock prices were marked higher and the market started to drift ahead of wall street's opening. the dow jones opened thirty points lower in reaction to rising oil prices which called london, caused london to move below the two thousand level. at the close at four thirty the footsie one hundred stood at one nine nine o point three and wall street was down fifty-two point three points at two four six o point five. sterling benefited from the trade figures with a two point four five cent rise to eight point seven nine o and a one point six, a one point one six pfennig increase to two deutschmarks point nine three three three, gilts were a quarter of a point easier. amongst the major shares today, abbey national up one at one nine nine, british aerospace down twenty at five three four, british airways down one at one five oh, british gas down, down two at two one seven, british steel were down two at one one six, b t down five at two five nine, rolls royce, they were down five at one seventy and t s b ends the day up, er that's up two at one one eight. sport, and with the new football season just over a month old, oxford united football club probably feels they've had enough problems to last them for a lifetime. after saturday's four two defeat at home to arch rival swindon town, the u's tonight face port vale in the first leg of the second round of the rumbelow's league cup. and they find themselves with a goalkeeping problem — mickey inotta is at port vale; mickey has this been resolved yet? yes jane it has, as luck would have it i was late arriving, had to run through the rain, ran into the main stand and by pure accident ran into the oxford united dressing room and there was brian horton, he said ‘hallo mick, hows the poster mickey’ as he always does, and in fact he gave me the team news and that is — ian walker makes his senior debut tonight with both alan injured, also two other changes;jackson comes in for gary smart and one surprising one, steve mclaren for mark steen. but one thing i can tell you about port vale, the ground has vastly changed from last season, the terracing's been improved, their seating, it's pure luxury apart from the press box, because i still have to climb that suspect wooden ladder, and perched on top of the main stand is a shed where i'm speaking to you from jane. ; fjm mickey, my heart bleeds for you. it, it was, it was a disastrous weekend for the u's, what on earth are they going to do tonight, are they going to be able to pull it out of the hat and, and hopefully jane, hopefully, i mean it was a disastrous weekend for the u's on saturday. losing at home four two to swindon, their arch rivals after being two in front, but i'd just like to make one point clear; don't blame manager brian horton because all of oxford's matches that they've lost this season has been through their own fault: lack of character out there on the pitch, there's nothing brian can do sat on the bench. he can tell them in training, but they've got to perform out there on the pitch, and probably this game has come just at the right time, after suffering a defeat like that, this is the time to get out there and show the supporters what they can really do. so are you going to make a prediction? well the fox prediction tonight is that oxford united will draw and probably beat them at the manor. in fact i'm sure they'll beat them at the manor and go through to the next round where hopefully we can probably play one of the big teams like — oh, manchester united, newcastle or probably — oh, i don't know mickey you can scunthorpe. dream away, dream away,let's hope your prediction is more accurate than your one on saturday was which really was not too close was it? no actually i went for four to one oxford, but tonight i'm going to go for port vale two, oxford united two. right, there will be live reports from mickey throughout the evening on the red fox. we'll also be keeping you in touch with the second replay of the first qualifying round of the f a cup which is taking place at fort meadow between buckingham town and brackley town; it's becoming a bit of a saga,the previous two matches ended one all draws. looking ahead to the game, well, here's mickey again. whatever happens tonight, i'm sure both managers will be keen to see this cup tie settled. so far three hours and thirty minutes of football has failed to separate the two sides. keith pierce-right, manager of brackley says ‘it'll be another physical match’. i would imagine it'll be a very, very similar sort of game, er hopefully we'll get the right result, but it's good for the club to have a good run. buckingham's man-in-charge phil lines is still annoyed his side failed to take their chances last week. probably should have won it on,about seventy-five percent of it, but we weren't as good, we, nowhere what we should have been, but give them credit, they worked very hard and er well there was only one goal in it, they kept doing their job and they done that quite well. you're listening to the fox report. speculation recently that the announced retirement of nigel mansell from formula one motor racing might not be as imminent as at first thought. well, mansell who run, won yesterday's portugese grand prix is believed to be considering several offers to tempt him out of that so-called retirement. one of the team's interests is, is the didcot-based williams; as clive watts reports: although the top line seat's already snapped up, that is apart from the didcot-based williams driver line-up, the speculation surrounding the pit lane at esteril this weekend was the pending signature of nigel mansell to the oxfordshire team. it's no secret that mansell has more than just a soft spot for frank williams, and indeed has enjoyed lots of success at williams in the past. if mansell does put pen to paper, our own local williams team should be right on the pace come the first grand prix next year. you're listening to the fox report. experts say turtle-crazy children could become teenage mutant monsters by eating the cartoon creatures' favourite junk foods. manchester-based allergy scientist, dr keith mumby is warning that too much junk food such as pizzas and chocolate can turn mild-mannered youngsters into violent aggressive menaces. melanie brown reports: radical eating their way through piles of pizza and marshmallows risk turning into nasty copies of their mutant hero turtles. dr keith mumby from allergy international says children who eat too much starch-refined foods, suffer behavioural problems. it's scientifically proven that foods can make certain susceptible children very ill, and this can manifest itself in various ways, but one of the most common ways is that children behave badly; they become aggressive and disturbed. it's very likely to turn some of these children themselves into sort of er mutant monsters, er some of them behave extraordinarily badly, and yet they're very sweet children when they're eating the right diet. a major supermarket has just unveiled four new teenage mutant hero turtle pizzas and dr mumby says the way the foodmakers have jumped in on the turtle band-wagon is wrong. i object. i think it's not, i think it's very immoral to, to tie in these sort of junk foods or poor nutritious substances with something that's very popular among children at the moment. the doctor says stores are wasting an ideal chance to redefine children's eating habits. well what's wrong in them doing er ninja turtle apples or ninja turtle wholemeal bread, why does it have to be pizzas and floury carbohydrate rubbish? that's what i don't like. but he's not hopeful the warnings will change food industry policies. doctors are now been putting out warnings for many years, saying that certain aspects of our diets and health policy are very dangerous and destructive. but there seems to be no move to actually control or regulate the food industry. a spokesman for one of the giant supermarket chains stocking turtle food, says as far as they're concerned, there's plenty of nutritional value in their pizzas. but if dr mumby's right, turtle fans may find that rather than helping the good guys, they could instead get a cow bunger clobbering from the turtle team by turning into the baddies. you're listening to the fox report, it's nine minutes to seven. there's still very slow-moving traffic on the m four westbound at junction six. and the m twenty five is slow in both directions between junctions fourteen and sixteen, that's from heathrow up to the m forty. on the m forty at junction two for beaconsfield, there's a contraflow in operation with two narrow lanes running in both directions and the westbound entry slip road closed. on the a four two three at hopcroft's holt, there are temporary traffic lights for resurfacing work and er that might slow you down a little bit. on the a forty, oxford northern bypass, there are lane closures westbound between marston flyover and cherwell bridge, and on the a four two two, that's from stratford to alcester, there are temporary traffic lights at taylor's wood. otherwise, no serious problems to report. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and it's been a fairly good rush hour on the buses and trains. the only problem was the london paddington to liverpool train didn't run from the expected start station, it started from reading instead of from paddington, so if you were expecting somebody on that train, well they may not have, may not have been on that one if they er were actually starting from paddington, otherwise no problems on the buses. an oxfordshire couple are celebrating a different kind of silver anniversary tonight. sheila and jim smith from abingdon have been fostering children for the last twenty-five years. oxfordshire social services are hosting a party for the remarkable couple who've welcomed more than one hundred children into their family. but sheila says far from welcoming a break from the kids, she doesn't like to have too tidy a house. it's alright for a couple of days and i have had a couple of days er peace and quiet, and then er i don't like it any more after that. i don't like when there's only er me in the house all day long, i don't like it when the house, the house is too tidy, when er there's no children around. we've grown up with it, there's got to come a time when we say ‘put a halt to it’, but er i don't know what we'll do then what do you think you'll feel like when they tell you that you can't foster any more children, because er there's going to come a time i'm not going to give them the chance to say i can't foster any more, i know when i, i know now when i'm going to stop fostering. they'll know, they're not going to give, they're not going to be given the chance to say er, er ‘you can't have any more’, no. looking back on the twenty-five years of fostering children, is there any one memory that stands out for you? the memories i like to remember is er when things have worked out for children and they've gone back home and if they haven't gone back home, then they've moved on er to nice adoptive families. i like to see the children, you know er really happy er and settled. does it make you sad saying goodbye to children that you've looked after though? yes, that's one thing i've, i've never been able to get used to, er it's always, it's the same, it's hard to say goodbye. you're listening to the fox report. andrew jones and chris gill from oxford are shortly to set off to see the pyramids. they're going overland by motorbike; it's all in aid of snap the charity that stands for support for the sick newborn and their parents at the john radcliffe hospital. now originally the trip was going to take them through many middle eastern countries including jordan and israel, er have you had to change your plans at all andrew, it sounds as though that might not be the ideal place to be going at the moment? er no, we've er changed our route slightly as er we're getting the ferry from turkey into israel rather than going through jordan. straight to israel, and then, er where would that route take you, down, down to egypt? ; maj it's, it takes you, takes you virtually down the coast er through gaza strip into egypt, that way. it's, it's a very long way to cycle, is it er, have you done anything like before chris? no, it'll be my first time to do anything quite like this. have you been that far abroad before? no, i've only really as far, as er portugal, nowhere quite like this. so it's all going to be a little bit different out there. have you, have you both had to do any specific training or anything to, to get you this far? well, we should of, but we haven't no i see, and when are you starting? next monday. right now, i mentioned it was in aid of charity, how, how are you going on, on the charity side of things? er well at the moment we've got er total of about three thousand pounds and that's mostly through private sponsors, and we've got er three companies, they've actually put their names on us. tell me, it's, it's probably quite an expensive thing to do in the first place without having to, to, to bring home, home some money for charity in the end, how have you gone about doing it? yes, well, er at the moment i mean, it's cost me er personally er getting on two thousand pounds, er i don't, don't know how much chris has spent. whose bike is it that you're going on? it's my bike. er and, and what is it — is it something special? er well, it's, it's a standard er model, it's, it's actually designed for desert racing, so it's you'll still have to do a few miles? yes, it's, it's about ten thousand miles, but er, er hopefully with a few adjustments, should be alright, so you're, you're both on the same bike, one, one of you is riding and one of you is riding pillion, is that right? yes. has, have you ever done anything er on sand and in the desert before chris? no i haven't, nothing like that, no. we intended to do a little bit of er beach work to try and get something like that but we haven't been able to, so. so, er it's going to be first time you ever experience it, actually on, for real as it were? yes. well we wish you the best of luck, and er well let us know how you get on when you get back. and that was the fox report for monday september the twenty-fourth nineteen ninety, join us for another fox report tomorrow at six, but er don't go away, the red fox is here after the news at seven. claire thomas will be er in the hot seat as it were. the price of petrol's going up again; texaco are putting an extra seven point three pence on a gallon of four star from midnight tonight after crude oil went above forty dollars a barrel on the market. labour m p's and environment groups are saying tonight that environment secretary, chris patten has come up with a load of waffle in his three hundred and fifty point plan to rid britain of pollution; from westminster, des fahey: three hundred pages of recycled paper set out hundreds of problems and possible solutions. cars will spew out fewer noxious gases, more forests will be planted and there'll be grants to improve cathedrals. chris patten says he's launching a discussion we must all be part of. the successful environmental policy, at a reasonable cost, does involve all of us participating and all of us taking part in it. but the opposition says there are no spending commitments and no tough action; shadow environment secretary, brian gould says this is because chris patten lost the crucial battles in cabinet. he's lost those battles, i think because he lost the interest and support of the prime minister. mr patten says the government must move at a pace it can afford. des fahey, i r n westminster. former world boxing champion, george forman goes into the ring in london tonight for another fight in his remarkable comeback at the age of forty-two. forman, now a priest and known as the punching preacher says he's better now than he ever was, and he's confident of beating opponent terry anderson. i think better of myself today as a matter of fact, i am more of a confident fighter than i ever have been. now since coming back from retirement in ninteen eighty seven, you're unbeaten in twenty-two fights, twenty-one by knockouts, a lot of people have said that those fighters weren't up to scratch — what would you say to that? i think they're only saying it because it's true. independent radio news. it's tuesday the twenty fifth of september ninteen ninety. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. the government has published it's promised white paper on the environment; this common inheritance, to a mixed reception. it runs for some three hundred pages and looks at everything from energy conservation and controlling pollution to preserving our hedgerows and architectural heritage. the chairman of the conservatives back bech comm, back bench committee on the environment, robin squire, is pleased with the white paper. all of us, including the critics, have got to sit down and read three hundred pages line by line, to make final judgments, but we're looking at a programme there of the next decade. certainly the secretary of state has indicated that, so there's going to be quite a lot of time for legislation and, and more importantly, time for discussion about the correct legislation. but on the money side, er the significant sums already committed in areas like er, er cleaning up water, what is it — twenty four thousand million in the next ten years? last week, an announcement on er further steps on acid rain — six thousand million pounds; i mean there's big, big money in there already committed and i've no doubt that when the need is shown, there'll be greater money still spent — which will either be taxpayer's money or customer's money. looking at the carbon dioxide levels, there's just one indication of where the government could feasibly have been tougher, at least er critics said that, they er could have been tougher. the target is two thousand and five, why not two thousand as the labour party says? er i think a couple of things: first of all, the detail programme; the government will have to produce for the forthcoming world climate conference in october/november, er the way in which they're going to reach their target and secondly that will also discuss from amongst all the countries, what the target should be. so i think there's an element still to come out in, in that area, er but if you look at er, er the er issue generally, there's a lot in the white paper on er more than i expected actually, on energy efficiency, which i think is one of the keys to getting down er levels of carbon dioxide, and there is discussion about some of the many many ways in which the role of the motor car will affect er how we reduce our c o two. but i think, you know to make perhaps an obvious point, the comparison is made with west germany, it's not made with what er japan or, or er america for instance are proposing to do, which is less than us at the present time. and west germany of course, has had ten years of massive growth in nuclear power, i don't hear the green movement pressing us to imitate that; they want the end result but they're not prepared to wield the means. you're listening to the fox report, it's seven minutes past six. but the white paper has been give a less than enthusiastic welcome in some quarters, liberal democrat spokesman simon hughes says he's worried that the environment secretary's announcements may be full of good intentions which won't be carried out. what he said at the tory party conference last year was that he was going to set the agenda; the environmental agenda for the nineties. i think he's set the agenda, but governments are the people who are meant to take action on agendas, and that he clearly hasn't done. i believe in taking action on fact and not fantasy, but i think it was lord zuckerman who was the scientific advisor to the government, who said that government has never taken preventive measures that would prove to be unjustified, and if you always wait to the last moment before being convinced to do anything, that's often a moment too late. sadly, the whole of the white paper is an exercise in putting up ideas but then not doing anything about them, and it's a tragically wasted opportunity. chris patten was saying that he can't actually put a figure on how much all of this is likely to cost because he's still in the middle of the public sector borrowing grant and, this is all part of his negotiation with the treasury, but do you think he has actually lost the battle with the treasury. he has clearly lost the battle with the treasury, he makes the argument, as we expected him to make, that in order to improve the environment, you, you best choose market levers, market mechanisms. now, to do that, it means you tax the polluter, you make the polluter pay and you encourage people to do good environmental things by giving them grants or subsidies, but they are financial mechanisms and there is no proposal in here that allows any financial mechanisms. presumably the treasury said ‘no’. if the treasury said no and the department of the environment was trying to say yes, then clearly again the treasury have won. the whole er test of whether this was or was not a successful proposal, was whether you marry the environment and the economy, and sadly it hasn't been married, and sadly the treasury has yet again won. there is no new money — there is no new money. now the thing that seems to be the most interesting on the er face value of it, is er how it's going to affect fuel consumption and transport, and he is saying that they're considering whether further changes should be made in the taxation of er fuel and vehicles. do you think that that is a hint that perhaps the high litre cars — that is the four litre efforts and er the company cars might get taxed at the next budget round? well we were led to believe that the concessions given to company cars would go, or would go in part in the white paper, and we were led to believe that they would er make a decision that would say that the gas-guzzling, the higher expenditure cars would be penalized in terms of vehicle excise licence, road tax, compared to the small ones, and yet they've gone back even from that. yes, they will go, but the government should do two things, and it should have done them in the white paper announcement; it should have said ‘we are proposing to get rid of all advantages for company cars in tax terms and we are proposing to make sure that people pay by paying more road tax or more petrol costs if they have high gas-guzzling cars’. they can't duck both issues and, amazingly, they have. on british rail and london transport, er the white paper says it will support high levels of investment, surely that's encouraging? well,it would be encouraging if the government changed transport strategy, but the sad tragedy is that chris patten's lost the department of transport battle as well. what is needed, is to increase public investment in public transport and there isn't any increased public investment, the increased investment is coming from higher fares and the private sector, and slashed the road building programme. every mile of dual carriageway eats up twenty-six acres of countryside; the government are committed to fourteen billion pounds expenditure on a road-building expansion. unless you cut back on road building, you don't cut back on the car, unless you invest in public transport, you don't get people to use it. you're listening to the fox report, it's ten minutes past six, i'm jane markham. oxfordshire and west buckinghamshire beginning to ease off with the rush hour traffic at the moment, not too bad at all at the moment. the oxford ring road is beginning to ease as is the a forty this evening. the a four one three in buckinghamshire at dunton turn between winslow and whitchurch did see two mile tailbacks earlier on this afternoon, at that was aylesbury-bound due to the accident involving a car on fire. the tailbacks are now beginning to ease i'm told by thames valley police, due to the accident being cleared away from the carriageway at the moment. not so, such good news on the m twenty-five in buckinghamshire, clockwise between junction fifteen and sixteen, the m four/m forty interchange; still fairly heavy traffic there at the moment. and at kidlington on the a four two three, langford lane's junction with banbury road sees temporary traffic lights for resurfacing prior to the traffic lights being installed at that junction; some fairly long delays there at the moment. at reading road in shiplake, the a four one five five, there are some temporary traffic lights there holding er the, your journey up this evening, for road realignment work and er there are some delays there as i say at the moment. the m forty not running too badly at the moment, although between junction two and junction seven there are a fair few roadworks which could hold you up throughout your journey. mark rise, a a roadwatch. british rail have no problems to report and the local buses are running well as well. still to come: the oil price tops the forty dollars a barrel mark and a support centre is set up for women who've had to leave their husbands hostages in kuwait. first, a round up of today's local news, here's paul kirby. safety officials at the harwell laboratory near didcot are denying staff have been affected by radio-active contamination following a recent accident. three separate incidents apparently occurred within a fortnight of the start of this month including one in which a vial of radio-active substance was spilt. four bags of toxic waste which were found abandoned on the oxford ring road have been handed back to the company that lost them. at one point, the fire brigade brought in their chemical incident unit to deal with the bags, thought to be hazardous asbestos waste. a major oxfordshire-based motor dealer is responding to claims that it doesn't have the area's environment at heart. residents in wootton near abingdon say they're concerned that hartwells hopes to introduce a high-intensity paint spraying to it's wootton site. abby donald reports: hartwells say they themselves are concerned with the environment and claim any additional and replacement equipment has been carefully selected with the environment in mind. local residents in wootton have become increasingly worried that high-intensity paint spraying will bring unpleasant smells and health hazards to the area, and they've been backed up by local m p, john patten as well as the vale of white horse district council, whose planning committee have voted to stop hartwells expanding their wootton site into what they described as an industrial park. burglars have made off with four thousand pounds worth of goods from a motorist's shop in aylesbury. the robbers got through a rear window at autoserve in elm park road and police are anxious to trace a white box lorry seen in the car park at the time. oxfordshire district health authority has confirmed it will want to buy services from the nuffield orthopaedic centre if it achieves self-governing status. the new-look health authority has been meeting to discuss the nuffield's application to become self-governing. david perry says he wants the nuffield to provide good value service of a high quality, he's particularly keen it continues to help the county's accident service, but he has no doubt the authority will continue to use it. if the nuffield becomes a self-governing er trust, this health authority will want to continue to buy er the same level of, of service for oxfordshire's population er as we're buying at the moment. of course, er we er, the provisos must be er that the er, that the prices or the costs at the nuffield remain as competitive as they are at the moment, and of course , that we get the same very high quality that we er, that we already have. doctors and nurses in oxford are to learn how to become involved in management of hospitals. a major new initiative is to take twenty four nurses through a pilot course which could then be adopted throughout britain. nancy henstead who's a regional nurse from oxford regional health authority says ‘nurses already play a substantial role in the day to day running of hospitals, but until now, they've gone unrecognised for it’. ward sisters are actually managing resources at the moment, and part of their job is to actually give patients the best possible care within the resources that they actually have. and if we can encourage them to do that er more effectively and more efficiently, then that's all to the good. what they haven't done in the past is actually acknowledge the fact that they are managers. fox f m news, paul kirby reporting. it's seventeen minutes past six. the news that oil prices had shot above forty dollars a barrel set alarm bells ringing in e c headquarters in brussels. common market energy commissioner, antonio carlosa arquala has issued an angry statement saying the price escalation is unjustified and indefensible. he blames speculators and traders for the shock waves and says the surge in prices can't be justified by the oil crisis. for years we have er all, producers and consumers, we have supported the idea that a market would be a reasonable way to set up reasonable levels of price. and suddenly, erm very probably, by er unreasonable behaviour of some of the operators, we are seeing the emission of shock waves to the market which actually are extremely negative for the economy of the community as a whole, and for the oil world er as well. i believe that you accept that there'll be the short-term gains by oil companies and traders, but in the long-term, the position could, could reverse; the bubble might burst. that's true, er it would be also i think irresponsible for my side to point at oil companies or this or that operator. this is erm a complex and overall process; some people are behaving er in the wrong way, otherwise, market mechanisms do not justify forty dollars at this stage. we all know that er if the crisis has a military er follow-up, er during this type of crisis, everybody will exp, expect this crisis, if it happens, will be short, erm well er would be abnormal but this is not the situation of today. so i think forty dollars is completely out of line with the best provisions. so, i believe that what you're also saying is that even if there were war, that wouldn't necessarily mean that the tap would suddenly turn off and there'd be no more oil coming out of the middle east? that's true, er the market, and i think, the general public must be aware that so far, the supply is kept at a reasonable level, the erm difficulty coming out of the erm interruption of iraqi and kuwaiti field has been replaced. refineries are properly supplied and the market works in proper conditions. you're listening to the fox report. since saddam hussein marched into kuwait, more that nine hundred briton, most of the women, have either escaped or been flown out of the gulf. many have left their husbands behind to face an uncertain future, and some have arrived here with few belongings, little money and no accommodation. the government has now set up a support centre to help such families:; fc good afternoon, emergency unit. when people are ringing about their relatives in the gulf, er they just want to know what is the latest, are they coming out, this kind of thing. we do have occasions where we're having to say the same thing er over and over again, because nothing very much has happened. hallo sir, you're calling about your daughter, jennifer, erm i'm sorry, i don't really have any more information to add to what we told you on the twentieth. deep in the basement of the foreign office, a team of junior diplomats is on hand to answer queries and give advice to people returning from iraq and kuwait. jeff higgins is one of the unit supervisors. we have er six people taking telephone calls from members of the public, er these are enquiries about the latest in the gulf er, the relatives in the gulf, and then we have on the other side of the room, we have people who are handing out information that we have received to their relatives in this country. we also have er a d s s team, department of social securities er team to answer specific questions, er for that department. the staff aren't trained counsellors and mr higgins admits they're learning to deal with caller's emotional problems as they go along, or refer them to other organisations such as the samaritans. agony aunt, claire raynor visited the unit today. what they've done in a matter of a few weeks is put together a data bank of information that's colossal, and they're dealing with an enormous amount of, of distress and problems. i mean, i know that a lot of the calls they get are practical, people have come back from the gulf with no money, no home, i mean they've lived there for years and years and years, without the family network sometimes to keep them going, or friends, friends, they've, they've lost all of their, and it's, it's not easy. and a lot of them have emotional problems; i mean one of the girls i talked to here who's dealing with calls says it's difficult, you get some people who get very angry with you because you don't have news for them. and others who ring up just to talk, and they feel much better, and they cry and they get distressed. i think they're doing a great job, just listening, it's er, it's the best anyone can do. she says ‘feelings of guilt will be a major difficulty for wives who've left their husbands behind’. ‘i went away and left him’, now even if they went, went away and left and, because they had to bring the children home, or if they went away and left him because they knew it was the best thing for everyone concerned, because the foreign office wants as many people, we all need as many people to get out of the area as possible; their guilt will be huge. er. and that makes people angry, and, and hostile, because that's what guilt has to er there will also be a lot of bottled up distress because they'll think ‘well he's there, i've got no right to cry, i'm safe home’, so they'll be bottling up their feelings about it. sheer plain missing and loneliness, i mean, it's awful. you, you don't marry someone because you want to be on your own, you marry someone because you want to be together. er. the loneliness will be colossal. there's still no indication from iraq that british men, and in particular those that are seriously ill, will be allowed home, despite repeated appeals from the government and diplomatic staff in kuwait and baghdad. the green party conference drew to a close today and they certainly had something to talk about with the publication of the government's white paper on the environment. caroline lucas from the oxford green party has been at the conference — caroline, er what was the er the conference's impression of chris patten's white paper? well, it was more disappointing than even we had expected. there were very few firm commitments, the language is very much that of exploring, attempting, trying, hoping, when what we were looking for was a clear legislative framework. but we do think that the fact that they chose to launch it on the last day of our conference is quite a compliment; it was after all the green party that forced the government to produce the white paper as a result of our fifteen% in the european elections last year. and i think it does show that the greens are continuing to set the political agenda. now it was a three hundred page document er have, have many of the delegates been able to have time to digest it at all? well, we're all looking at it at the moment of, of course, but some of our first impressions are that for example on global warming, there's no commitment to, to a carbon taxation. on er urban pollution, there are no firm plans to er increase investment in public transport. on soil erosion, there's absolutely mention of that at all, again with acid rain, there are no radical new commitments. so we are feeling here there's a lot of persuasive language but not very much action. it is something though; better than nothing perhaps? it's certainly better than nothing, indeed it is yes, but there's a long way to go. now, this was the last day of the conference, er did you have time to talk about anything other than the white paper? yes we did, we were talking about our general election strategy and er we've been planning some campaigning and training workshops and so on, and i can tell you that we've selected a green party candidate for oxford west for the general election; his name is mike woodin, and the process is going on to select someone for oxford east, so there's certainly going to be a strong green presence in oxford during the general election. now, er it's, it's not yet known when the general election is, but er will you be ready for it? we certainly will, we also launched today our er campaign for two million pounds, our general election campaign for, for the money that we're going to need to stand candidates in as many constituencies as possible, so we're certainly gearing up for it, yes. what was your opinion of of the conference, did you find it er a useful, a useful er talking shop? yes it was, and i think it also er really put paid to the journalists that came along expecting to write our political obituary, because what did come over in all the workshops er and in the main plenary sessions, was that, that local, local parties are doing very well indeed and are getting a very good reception on the doorstep, in fact some other polls on, on er the green strategy to the environment show that people actually do still trust the greens far more than any other party. but you're still unlikely to make an impression at the general election? i would disagree with that. i think there are some constituencies er where we will, certainly will be making an impression, and i think that will be shown er when, when it happens. caroline thank you very much. the new look oxfordshire district health authority's been meeting today, it's the first time it's met since the changes were made under recent government legislation. the general manager of the authority, david perry says today marks an important step in the administration of health care in the county. well we've had the government's er white paper, that's now become an act of parliament, and in accordance with that er parliamentary decision, all the nineteen ninety two district health authorities in the country, er are newly constituted. and that means er that they're divided into what we call er non-executive directors; that is to say, people who er have other interests and other jobs, but spend part of their time er as health authority members er and the executive directors of the authority who are the full-time, er full-time staff. what will be the advantages of the new-look authority? well, er first of all, it's a smaller er authority, er the er meetings of the authority area are of course er going to be in public, just as er always, and er i think probably the key er advantage is going to be the new emphasis that we'll be able to place on buying health care services. er. the health authority's main responsibility is to assess the health care needs of oxfordshire's population — nearly six hundred thousand erm for oxfordshire. and then to try and do the best they can to buy the full range of health care services for the needs of, of their own population. it's all new, is it going to take a bit of getting used to? well er i think it is going to take a bit of getting used to, yes that's, that's right; preparing agreements for oxfordshire health authority, service agreements, we're calling them, er with some er eighty or ninety health care programmes, health care services in our hospitals and communities. that is going to take us a bit of time to put into place, but we're, you know we're moving just about as fast as our legs can carry us. you're listening to the fox report. pensioners from all over the fox f m area have been meeting today, calling for a greater role and more recognition in society. trade union officials, including former t n g leader, jack jones were at the meeting in banbury, and called for greater financial and emotional support for retired people. one of the speakers, canol, canon ron mitchinson says there's a wealth of knowledge and experience that society could draw on. my main concern is, that i think that over the years, as people have lived longer and as they became retired, we've tended to neglect them, not so much financially and in terms of their conditions, though i think there's always arguments about that; i think we've actually neglected their role in the community. i think that old people, or people who are retired, rather than old people, have an enormous amount of wisdom about their community, they have certainly stories to tell, and traditionally i think often in older traditional communities, they, the retired people, the people who've ceased work, have been if you like, the guardians of the wisdom and the guardians of the stories. and i think they have a tremendous contribution to make, and i think what we ought to be doing with er people who retire, it's not to say the end of their working life, and therefore they're on the scrap heap, but that it's a new stage in life and we ought to honour them and respect them and i think, give them some er affirm where they're at, and use them much more as the guardians of wisdom and the guardians of the stories of the community, and use them in that sort of way. now, that may be very idealistic and it's obviously not all retired or old people who've got a lot of wisdom unless you want to tell their stories. but there is a sense in which, because people are living longer, er we tend to think, ‘well, let them go on working’. i'm all in favour of early retirement, but actually acknowledging then, the people who retire, have that contribution, and i think we ought to be developing a way of our society to ensure that they're able to live reasonably comfortably, and so that the pension should actually be a living wage, to enable them to be free, to make those sort of contributions. you're listening to the fox report, it's six thirty. the motorways in the fox f m area — fairly heavy this evening. the m twenty five in buckinghamshire around at junction seventeen anticlockwise, that's at rickmondsworth, traffic's very slow there at the moment and clockwise between junction fifteen and sixteen, the m four/m forty interchange, traffic is very heavy there as well. we've just heard that in berkshire, the m four, junction six to seven, that's slough on the a four, if you're heading that way this evening, traffic's slow there going westbound and obviously could cause you a few delays. in buckinghamshire on the a four one three at dunton turn, between winslow and whitchurch, the tailbacks there caused by an earlier accident involving a car on fire. are easing now and er should be clear in the next few minutes, due to the accident having been cleared from the carriageway. on the a forty-three in oxfordshire, just north of enstone, some temporary traffic lights there are holding drivers up for the resurfacing work that's going on there — a little bit of extra care should be taken. and finally, on the a forty-one at risecote avenue in banbury, it's completely closed southbound and the junction with orchard way for paving work, and there are some diversions to your journey there. mark rise, a a roadwatch and i've still nothing to report to you on the buses or trains. it's six thirty two. soviet foreign minister, edoard sheverdnaze says the united nations could sanction military force if iraq refuses to pull out of kuwait. his warning comes as the u n security council prepares to vote in favour of an air embargo against iraq. millionaire financier, sir jack lyons has been spared going to prison after a court heard that a jail sentence could kill him; the judge, mr justice henry said he accepted the businessman was seriously ill. instead, the financier was fined three million pounds for his part in the guinness affair. the cost of petrol's going up again to more than two pounds forty a gallon; texaco are putting an extra seven point three pence on the price of four star from midnight tonight, after crude oil went above forty dollars a barrel on the markets. the weather for the fox f m area, after a pleasant evening with some sunshine, the night'll be dry with clear periods, these are going to allow mist and fog patches to form by dawn in rural parts of the area, especially along the thames and thame valleys. a touch of ground frost is expected as temperatures fall to three degrees celsius — that's thirty seven degrees fahrenheit. still to come: drunken giant wasps cause havoc in the south of england. first though, plans to build new schools and improve existing buildings in oxfordshire have been shelved; twenty projects have been put on hold because the county council can's sell the land which would have er funded the schemes. labour councillor for banbury, jack steer, say ‘government restrictions on the council and land values have combined to work against the council's plans’. the county council reallocates resources from things that it sells into things like new build, new schools; if we sell a piece of a playing field or whatever, then we will put, plough the money back into capital resources within the education service somewhere else. if you add that to the er problems that the government has created for this county, as with other county councils, then the two things make it quite impossible for us to continue with a capital programme as we would like. i mean, there's no fun in sitting there saying ‘we're not going to be able to do bloxham primary school to replace the temporary buildings they've had there for nineteen years’; that gives nobody any joy, but in terms of priorities, it was one that was felt er did not have that prior, the same priority as some of the others. do you think the council is providing an adequate service educationally? both government and local authorities have failed to put money into capital projects for a long long time. this county council failed to do it from the time, time it was formed until eighty-five; it failed even to address the problem, never mind do it, and we've been trying to, to sort of do some catching up. and it is very difficult, given the current economic situation. for twenty projects to be deferred, wouldn't that suggest that there are problems within the er county council? well there are problems in the sense that we've got to do it, in terms of management of the county council, the control of the capital programme, no i don't think so, because if, if there was no control on it, you wouldn't now be picking up and saying ‘hey we've got to do something about it’. you're listening to the fox report. around twenty-two thousand people in oxford live in rented accommodation; the highest proportion of rent, er private rented housing in any city outside london. now housing organisations have got together to make a private tenant's manifesto to push forward the rights of tenants to be protected. they say that tenants should have their rents linked to the condition of the property they live in. jeremy sparford from oxford housing aid, who's helped put the manifesto together, says that ‘all too often, the lack of choices open to the homeless, mean that their rights are abused’. the situation that, that a lot of people find themselves in nowadays, now er council housing is no longer available to an awful lot of people, is that they're at the mercy of private landlords, and in order to have any kind of home they have to go along this sort of conditions and rent levels laid down by private landlords. and what the manifesto is, is trying to do is to er set an agenda for about how the lot of private homes can be improved, and er fixing rent is one thing which the government er traditionally has had a responsibility for and which needs, er must be linked in with conditions because what we have at the moment is a situation where you get, in oxford, a er a family living in one room being charged er over two hundred pounds a week by an individual landlord, and that's clearly unacceptable. there's lots of myths about rachmanite landlords — is that really the case or is it one huge myth? i think it's easy to be glib about this, there are clearly an awful lot of landlords and landladies around who provide an excellent service and merely want a reasonable rent in return for offering a decent service. however, it is sadly the case that it is still true that there are er a number of landlords around who tend to control a lot of property, who er are charging er absurdly and unreasonably high rents in return for an appalling service. now one would think that er they would go out of business because no-one would want to live there, but as a result of government policy, which has meant that council houses aren't available to people any more, because a local authority isn't allowed to build them; people actually have the choice: they either are homeless and on the streets or they pay exorbitant rents for appalling accommodation. and unfortunately, unscrupulous landlords that are actually benefiting from this, and in a lot of cases, it's not, people, people aren't paying, necessarily paying this rent out of their wages, it's actually the poll tax payer who is paying these rents, er through housing benefit, and i think we should all be aware of the way in which we collectively are being ripped off you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty two minutes to seven. drunken giant wasps are causing havoc in kent, surrey and sussex. the swarms of scandinavian median wasps resemble hornets and have a painful sting. peter bateman of rentokil says there's a reason for their bad behaviour — they've been getting drunk on rotten fruit. it is a largish wasp, it is er in size between the common wasp and the hornet, and er so it's fairly visible when it is around, but it doesn't er normally nest in buildings, it nests in, in low trees and, and shrubs and bushes. so, it is unlikely to become a major pest problem. what about the idea that these er wasps might be drunk? yes, well these, all wasps of course, er tend to er hit the fruit juice at this time of the year, and that fruit juice is very often fermenting, and you get a particularly er waspish reaction, er naturally, when er somebody goes to pick up a fallen apple or windfall pear, and they pick up a handful of wasp, inadvertently, and i think this year, particularly with a shortage of water, more wasps of all species have been driven to attack fruit, er and are feeding on the er fruit juice, much of which is fermenting. and so you get these, these somewhat stupefied er or one over the eight wasps rolling around, er and er you know, not, not being terribly active, but that, that is the time at which of course people do tend to tread on them or pick them up and get stung. it does seem that there are a lot of wasps around this september; there are always wasps around at this time of year, but er are, do you have any evidence that er there's even more than usual? yes we have, er i mean, the er there are wasps years recorded way back from gilbert white's time; there have been certain,wasp years, but in terms of people wanting action against wasps nests, er our own pest control branches throughout the country, er did a telephone survey ten days ago, and er in many parts, they range from er forty percent increase to eighty percent increase to one hundred percent increase in some parts of the country; this season compared with last season. this is the fox report, it's twenty to seven. still to come: princes risborough travels back in time to the summer of nineteen forty. first, financial report in association with barclays bank for your financial needs. u k market tried on several occasions to break through and remain above the two thousand level today, but confidence remains low and the footsie one hundred index was unable to find support. at the end of trading the u k market remained below the two hundred level at one hundred and ninety nine point two up eight point nine points, volume was moderate with four o nine point six million shares traded. in new york the dow jones index tried to regain some of yesterday's lost ground, at at four thirty stood up two point seven two points at two four five five point six nine. and sterling enjoyed another boost triggered by yesterday's better than expected august current account figures and higher oil prices. against the dollar, sterling rose point three of a cent to one point eight eight three, against the deutschmark a gate, a gain of seven point five pfennigs was seen. amongst the major shares today abbey national were up four at two o nine, british aerospace up eight at five four two, british airways down four at one four six, british gas were down five at two one one, british steel up one at one one seven, b t went down one to two two eight, rolls royce were up one at one seven one and t s b were up five at one two three. your listening to the fox report; sport, and last night, oxford united football club won the first leg of their second round clash with port vale in the rumbelows league cup. it went some way to repairing their damaged pride after their defeat by swindon town at the weekend, mickey inotta was there; mickey it must have cheered you up a bit. it did, what didn't cheer me up though jane was the press box facilities. in the second division in this day and age, i had to climb a wooden ladder, i had to go all the way to the very top of the main stand and there was a shed, and at the end of the match, surface water forced me to dry my socks off in the radiator in the dressing rooms afterwards. but it also brought a smile to manager brian horton, and i was thrilled to bits for him because he's taken a lot of stick over recent results. but then again, i've always believed that the players have to show that character out there on the pitch, they haven't, they learnt their lesson, losing four two against swindon, that match will never be forgotten by the supporters, it doesn't matter if they win the cup, it'll never be forgotten. but that match brought a smile to brian horton's face and i'm very pleased about it. it definitely did, and er i think probably this time he's rather rev, relieved that his game plan actually worked. it's funny how it works, isn't it, i mean we've just, it, it's like us and er swindon in a way because we've just got it over on port vale haven't we? i mean, i'm saying that with tongue in cheek because they've got to come to our place. but the plan, which i, i was going to do has worked a treat. we've, we've soaked up a lot of pressure without having too many goal attempts at us, and then we've broke away and scored two goals; the plan's worked a treat and i was due to do something right. it wasn't actually the most exciting match from the spectator's point of view i understand. were, were there any outstanding performances worth going along to see? three in particular, the first one, ian walker the goalkeeper on loan from tottenham hotspurs, he played a super game, made some very good saves and his handling was secure. his dad was mickey who keeps goal for colchester united, i don't know if he was at the match, but he was, er had a very good game. also martin foyle, now of course, there, there is a rumour that ipswich town are after him, but at the moment he's scoring goals for oxford; five in the last five games, he's scored two, and also a mention for steve mclaren. now we need somebody, a ball winner in mid-field, he came in last night and he did the job. and the two-goal hero, hero you mentioned there, martin foyle, was full of praise for the young keeper, ian walker. well it's always nice to keep a clean sheet, you know, especially away from home, but, you know, we just, just get a few league wins and er get the confidence back again. and everybody's smiling in the dressing room? well yes, it's nice to have a happy changing room to be honest. you know i thought the keeper did ever so well, you know, made a couple of good saves in the first half and just changed the game for us. ian, a cracking debut; first of all take us through that er first half save, you had nothing to do, conditions awful and yet you pull off a save like that. the ball come across and er i see bedford had his back to the goal, and i could see he was going to swivel and hit it with his left foot, and i've just come across the goal and er, he just hit it down low to my right hand side and luckily i've come the right way and pushed it wide. well that's what happened last night. there's some local action tonight isn't there mickey, what's happening around er the area that's right jane, i'll be off to culham road shortly to cover the match between abingdon town and brackley, bracknell; they're playing in the vauxhall league division two south and some team news for town — doesn't read very well, i'm afraid, mid fielders kevin connelly and keith appleton, they've both been ruled out. connelly has a knee injury, while appleton is out due to work commitments, so they'll probably lose. in rugby union, chinnor and swindon, they'll be locked in combat in the first round of the oxfordshire courage floodlit cup, and that match kicks off at the southern by-pass ground at seven fifteen. right, well i suppose the big sporting story of the evening has to be the boxing; george forman, who's forty-one is about to go into the ring in er london's docklands arena. he's going to face terry anderson in yet another comeback fight. you're a bit of a boxing aficionado mickey, what, what do you rate his chances? well basically i think this fight, his chance is he'll probably win, but this fight is a bit of a joke; it does boxing no good whatsoever. the british medical association, well they'll have ample ammunition now to say that boxing is no longer a sport. it doesn't do the name of boxing any good whatsoever, he's made twenty two comeback fights, he's won twenty-one inside the distance, but nobody is a name. i'm just not happy about it at all, the match should never have been sanctioned, and like i said, it does boxing's reputation no good whatsoever. mind you, forman himself's rather confident about tonight's fight, and indeed his fitness. i think better of myself today as a matter of fact, i'm more of a confident fighter than i ever have been. i believe that if i'm given the chance to fight the george forman of old, the george forman of today would be the better. now since coming back from retirement in nineteen eighty-seven, you're unbeaten in twenty-two fights, two one by knockouts. a lot of people have said that those fighters weren't up to scratch, they weren't the most hard-hitting of fighters — what would you say to that? i'm going to put up a good fight. i want all of you to go there, and tell all your friends to come see one of the wonders of the world. you're listening to the fox report. what's green, measures eight by fifty-two inches and would burn a large hole in your pocket? the answer, well it's a one million pound bank note that's up for auction at christies next month. the note was used by the treasury as a receipt for american funds donated to help europe's post-war recovery. jashav barisna says it's auction price will be only two percent of it's original value. it was connected with the marshall aid fund at the end of the war, er where the united states actually wanted evidence of the fact that funds that had been transferred to the u k treasury, were being so to speak properly used by the bank of england and that the bank of england issued this er one million pound note as evidence that the funds were made available to the bank of england by the treasury. the, the note is in fact er effectively the bank of, could have endorsed it to, to a third party so to speak exactly as it would have done in any er any fiscal currency of the er of the type. so at one time, it was worth one million pounds? yes, it would have been used physically as one million pounds, yes it would. it was, it has the face value of one million pounds in physical terms, there is, in fact it is thought that there was a ten million pounds as well based on the same, on the same er principle. it would have been still worth one million pounds had it not been cancelled of course, and the item is actually cancelled, so consequently, naturally not. er. it does say on it of course‘payable on demand’ and not ‘payable to bearer’in this instance, and that is quite an important difference. and no one demanded the one million pounds? no, because it hadn't been transferred to anybody else. it is not quite clear incidentally how this came out er, er into er be, becoming available to christies for auction. it is thought that there might, it might have remained in the hands of some diplomats who were transferring it, and there were two of these issues, there is one in a private collection at present, so this is a second one, and number eight which is coming out for sale, but the number seven did change hands er a couple of years ago, so at about fifty five thousand pounds i believe. you're listening to the fox report, it's ten minutes to seven, i'm jane markham. oxfordshire and west buckinghamshire beginning to calm down after the rush hour this evening. it's all reasonably quiet now; the oxford ring road and the a forty is beginning to calm down a bit. on the m four in berkshire, junctions six to seven, that's slough and the a four, it's heavy and slow-moving westbound there at the moment, and into buckinghamshire, on the m twenty-five, anti-clockwise round junction seventeen in buckinghamshire, at rickmondsworth, traffic's very slow there as well. and clockwise between junction fifteen and sixteen, the m four/m forty interchange, it's very heavy traffic there at the moment. the a four one three at dunton turn between winslow and whitchurch has now cleared, no major problems there any more going aylesbury bound, after the earlier accident. and finally on the a four one this evening, there is patching work on the a four one at various locations throughout the road this evening, which could hold you up as you travel along there. mark rise, a a roadwatch. and it's been a fairly good evening if you've been using public transport. british rail have nothing to report and i've no problems to tell you about on the local buses either. it's eight minutes to seven. tomorrow lunch time, local author william harley will be at a champagne lunch in london, he's one of twelve finalists in this year's ian st james literary award. he's already picked up a thousand pounds tomorrow he'll receive a copy of his short story — the green moustache, which er got him into the final along with the other eleven winning stories which are being published in an anthology, which is hot off the presses from the publishers collins. he'll also find out if he's in the top three, and therefore will receive a further cash prize. ian st james, who organizes and finances the awards, has made his fortune as a best-selling author. he set up the prize to give aspiring writers a chance to step on the first rung of the literary ladder. ; mij all twelve writers will come to a glitzy show biz type lunch at the cafe royal, hosted by david frost, and that's where we will know for the first time, who's, who is the overall winner, the runner-up and the third place writer. but, er the day has a number of er reasons, er it's, a) it's a fun day, a show bizzy-type lunch. the important thing though is that invited to the lunch are the top literary agents in london and therefore it's an opportunity for these aspiring writers to meet top literary agents and of course, we've got the biggest publisher in the u k there — collins, and so it's, what the awards all about entree; giving access and extending a helping hand to twelve aspiring writers every year and giving them the most terrific flying start. so, so in a way, the money is incidental, it's really this, this platform as it were abso, absolutely, you see because if you take — last year we had er one of our winners er a lady called liz harris, who's been knocking on the door and trying to get established as a writer for years and years and years. i think liz has written six full-length manuscripts and, and has just lived with rejection sh, slips. now liz didn't win our first, second or third prize er last year, but she, she made it to the final twelve, er her, her full-length novel now, has now been accepted by collins and that's going to be published next february, there's talk of a big american contract for liz and liz has now been floated away in to the world of big time professional writing. and that's what, that's what it's all about. that's brilliant. so, so william you, yours was a short, well they were all short stories because that's the nature of the competition, what, what are your aspirations in the future? well, i just hope, i would like to get a novel published er the story of liz, to my mind, justifies ian's project one hundred per cent and that's, should be what it's all about. er. myself, i've got a novel almost finished and if somebody buys it, so much the better wish him all the best with that. tomorrow, princes risborough in buckinghamshire will be travelling back to the summer of nineteen forty. an exhibition's already started at the library and tomorrow evening, a vera lynn look-alike and a sound-alike will be visiting the library with a fifty piece band. alec kennedy is the area librare, brare,i knew i was going to have trouble with that, the area librarian who's behind all this. alec, it's a huge project, and er the band, where have you, where have you got them from? the band comes from er princes risborough upper school, er led by er jane ashcroft who's the music teacher from princes risborough upper school. oh, so it's, so it's, it's not even, it's not people who are around in nineteen forty then? oh no, the er, to, to maintain authenticity, the people in the band have to look as if they would looked in nineteen forty, which is why er sally edwards who's the vera lynn look-alike er would be more authentic than vera lynn herself. is she a local girl? she is, she's, runs a local firm in princes risborough and she's one of my library users. ah so, what sort of things will they be singing? er i should imagine they'll be singing ‘there'll be blue birds over the white cliffs of dover’ erm ‘i'll be seeing you again’and all the songs that i'm not quite sure of, but i'm sure that of my readers know well. yes we're all far too young for that . now you've got other things going on tomorrow er something's happening at lunch time isn't it? er half past one, there are about three hundred, or there will be about three hundred school children descending upon the library from icknield primary and berryfields primary er and er monks risborough school er they will be given a sweet ration — sweets for a whole week, which is less than they imagine they're going to be. this is actually three ounces of sweets. so you've bribed them along with a promise of sweets er it was just to show what people had to put up with. there is an er exhibition of rationed food, so people can see how, how much people left, lived off. so they're all coming in costume as it were? they're all coming dressed as evacuees, they've all been making cardboard boxes with bits of string and making suitcases extremely battered — all out of cardboard. so in nineteen forty, i suppose evacuees would have been sent to princes risborough rather than being sent away? er yes, i, i wanted er to find a judge for the competition; somebody who was evacuated to princes risborough, but that was quite difficult. er. so we have people who took in evacuees in princes risborough because, as you say, people would have been evacuated from london i suppose out to princes risborough. it's a fascinating project, because you've also got all sorts of memorabilia lined up in the library. yes i put out an appeal to er my readers to search their attics and their er lofts and their garden sheds for all the things they might have left over from the second world war. er. we had hundreds of er identity cards and ration books, all of which are on display in the library, coupled with some extraordinary things; er a wedding dress made out of a parachute, and an empty incendiary bomb — i stress empty, i'd hate to think it went off in the library. so all this stuff is on display at the moment and er several mannequins dressed in costume of the home guard and of the land army. this is an enormous project, why did you decide to pick the summer of nineteen forty? er summer of nineteen forty is the fifty year er commemoration of the battle of britain, er and this began as a book display and spread outwards, out of the library and along the high street. some of the shops are also involved, they will also have window displays, several of princes risborough shops have taped up windows which looks quite extraordinary when you drive into the town. people will wonder what on earth's happening. it, it does look quite strange, the library itself looks the strangest with it's sandbags over the door. so you've got the children tomorrow lunchtime, you've got the band tomorrow evening, but the library exhibition goes on a bit longer? the exhibition will go from now, will last from now until the twenty-second of october when all the memorabilia will be on show then. alec, thank you very much. and that was the fox report for tuesday the twenty-fifth september, nineteen ninety. join us for another fox report tomorrow evening for a round up of local, national and international news, but stay with fox f m after the news at seven o'clock — it'll be the red fox. tonight the man who commands british forces in the gulf is named, while the wife of an oxford man who's stranded in kuwait says her family now face homelessness. the housing aid said the only thing they could offer me is bed and breakfast. nigel mansell says he won't retire after all but will race next season for the didcot-based williams team; they are delighted. his ambition and our objective jointly is to win a driver's, world championship driver's title before he retires. and oxfordshire's children's line is relaunched. if you've got a problem and want to talk, ring children's line o eight hundred six two six thousand. the six o'clock news, this is patrick muirhead. president bush says the world must look beyond the gulf crisis to a new deal for the middle east, and he's hinting that an iraqi pull out from kuwait could lead to an end to the conflict between the arabs and israel. but mr bush told the u n security council in new york that iraq must put the right wrong it has done in seizing a nation to which it had no right. in the waiting weeks, one of history's most hopeful summers, the vast still beauty of the peaceful kuwaiti desert was fouled by the stench of diesel and the roar of steel tanks. and once again the sound of distant thunder echoed across a cloudless sky, and once again the world awoke to face the guns of august, but this time the world was ready. a hero of the falklands and the iranian embassy siege is to command british forces in the gulf. fifty six year old lieutenant general, sir peter de la beliaire was due to retire in november, instead, he's preparing to fight a war. peter russell has this report. he's britain's most decorated general; a former director of the s a s and a close associate of mrs thatcher. next month he planned to retire from the army, but says he couldn't resist this call to duty. i've got no regrets about not retiring, i mean er i'm a professional soldier er and if you're offered an appointment er and a privilege such as this is, then you don't throw it away easily. sir peter's served in suez, jordan and aden. it's that middle east experience which persuaded the m o d to appoint him overall commander in the gulf. peter russell i r n, at the ministry of defence. british rail maintenance staff have voted for a series of twenty-four hour strikes, starting next week. it'll mean delays for thousands of intercity passengers between scotland, london, birmingham, manchester and liverpool, the action's also expected to hit commuter services at northampton and bletchley. about three hundred and fifty overhead electric workers are protesting at b r's plans to close three maintenance depots. the families of two teenage joyriders shot dead by troops in belfast are demanding to know why the checkpoint patrol had to kill them. martin peak and karen brielly died when soldiers mistook them for terrorists when they roared through a roadblock. but the families say the stolen car should have been stopped, not fired on. from belfast, gary duffy. the families of the two dead teenagers say there must have been an alternative to opening fire. but maria brownley admitted not even the fear of death could stop her brother driving stolen cars. he knew that if he went out in the car, he, he knew that the next time he might, mightn't come home. ulster's security minister, john cope says the teenagers only had to stop. they were not shot for joyriding. it's an important distinction to make. ten joyriders have now been killed by the security forces since nineteen-eighty, while one soldier was killed when struck by a stolen car. gary duffy, i r n belfast. police in hemel hempstead are asking shoppers and pubgoers to watch videos of missing four year old simon jones which are going on public view. they hope people will come forward with information about the boy who vanished in one of the town's parks over a week ago. twenty-two poll tax protestors have stormed a council office in northampton and held the borough treasurer hostage. police are questioning a number of women demonstrators and are trying to break down barricades to clear the others out of the building. shadow education secretary, jack straw has accused cabinet ministers of hypocrisy for sending their children to private schools. he claimed only one minister has children at state schools, and mr straw claims the government has always maintained that state education is good enough for everyone. but he says their not practising what they preach. they are clear the best for their children requires small classes, new science blocks, well-equipped laboratories, teachers who are properly rewarded. but these same ministers claim that for other people's children, the best can be achieved in large classes, in crumbling buildings without sufficient books and equipment and with inadequately paid teachers. independent radio news. it's monday the first of october nineteen ninety. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. the man who was in charge of the storming of the iranian embassy ten years ago is to lead britain's forces in the gulf. he's lieutenant general sir peter de la beliaire, and as president bush says, there's never been such international cooperation against an aggressor. iraqi president saddam hussein has ordered the release of nine frenchmen who were being held hostage. the move is seen as the latest in a campaign to crack western resolve in its stand against baghdad, from the gulf here's james matthews. the nine set free had been detained at civilian and military sites; some appeared to have middle eastern backgrounds. their freedom comes after saddam hussein has welcomed the gulf peace plan drawn up by the french president, francois mitterand. it also meets the french demand that any settlement be conditional upon the release of hostages. for president saddam hussein's apparent move to clear the way towards peace, is being seen here as a cynical bid to try to dilute western opposition against him. meanwhile today muslim leaders have said an armed conflict in the gulf will lead to a world-wide holy war. a delegation of the islamic world's most senior figures says the ominous call for a holy war against western forces wouldn't be confined to the gulf. dr hassan kunavi says muslims world-wide would strike against western targets and people. but it may er involve all sorts of thuggery from er powerful expression of, of opinion to = individual acts of resistance or aggression to an all out war. there is going to be all forms of jihad all over the world because there is a sacred element, there is an element erm of er which is the presence of a foreign non-muslim force in the holy land; this is a very explosive element. the delegation has just finished a gulf tour that included a visit to iran. it's warned that in the event of any gulf war, religious ties will lead to an alliance between iraq and iran against the west. you're listening to the fox report. the wife of an oxford man who's stranded in occupied kuwait, is facing an uncertain future with no sign of her husband getting out. maria harris has been staying with her parents at wood farm since returning to britain just days before saddam hussein's forces marched in, exactly two months ago. her husband alex is now in hiding after an abortive escape attempt. but with each week that passes, mrs harris says her concern increases for alex's safety and er for the welfare of her two young children. my immediate concern is for my husband's safety because, given that, our lives could then go back to normal. it will obviously take some time, you know alex is, must be going through a terrible strain himself and he must be concerned about us er as we are for him. now, at the moment you're staying with your parents in oxford, how long do you think you'll be able to, to stay here? well, i think for the children's sake, i'm going to stay put until christmas, but after that i'm really going to have to try and find some sort of stability for my children. i'd dearly love to go back to my real home, but er unfortunately there's no way i could pay the mortgage on it. i've gone to the local council and er unfortunately they've said to me that i'd have to go on a waiting list; the housing aid have said the only thing they could offer me is bed and breakfast which i'm sorry to say i don't think is suitable to bring two children up in. are either of the children beginning to, to show the signs of feeling the impact of their father not being about? yes, my eight year old is certainly beginning to show signs of stress, er it's an unsettling situation for him, and he's old enough to understand, and er we've had tears and you know. is there anything immediately that gives you hope that something will happen for the better? it seems as though they're trying to find an immediate solution. my only worry is at the moment, it does seem to be a military one. er. and as much as none of us would like that, i feel it may be, you know, it may, it will be something that will be over very quickly, er the only worry of course is that so many people will get hurt, but if that's the way to end it all then perhaps that's what should be done. you're listening to the fox report, it's nine minutes past six, i'm jane markham. traffic is still slow moving on the m twenty-five, that's clockwise at junction sixteen, where you turn off for the m forty. on the m four between junctions fifteen and sixteen, that's between swindon east and west, the outside and centre lanes are closed westbound for roadworks. on the m forty, between junctions four and five, that's between high wycombe and stokenchurch, there are two narrow lanes running in both directions and there's, er added to the trouble, there's a contraflow at boulter end with single-line traffic running both ways. on the a four two three, that's near to hopcroft's holt and steeple aston, there's resurfacing work; that's causing some delays, and on the a thirty six one at wardington just north of banbury, there are temporary traffic lights which might slow you down if you're travelling that way. martin lawford a a roadwatch. and i've no problems to report to you this evening, either from british rail or indeed from our local bus services. still to come, the labour party outlines its plans for the economy should it come to power, and oxfordshire's children's line is relaunched. first with a round up of the day's local news, here's paul kirby. the son of an oxford city councillor has appeared court today charged in connection with a disturbance outside a city pub. fabian ricketts who's mother val represents the st clement's ward in oxford, is accused with two others of assault and public order offences. he's been granted conditional bail until october the twenty-second. it follows an incident last month when police reinforcements were needed to quell troubles involving around four hundred youths near the ale house in castle street in the city. oxford crown court has jailed two men after hearing how drug squad detectives tracked them down during a trip to london. twenty-two year old gerald bagshall from barton village road in oxford has been jailed for two years for possession and supply of drugs. twenty-five year old david taylor of chillingworth crescent in woodfarm has been jailed for eighteen months for possession of drugs. the court heard how detectives followed the two men from oxford to london, and watched them buy drugs, when they returned home, drugs were found in their car. an oxfordshire consultant has told how specialist hospitals have to turn to charity for funds because the government doesn't provide enough money. halton maternity hospital in banbury recently received nearly two thousand pound's worth of life-saving equipment for their nee, neo-natal unit, as part of a grant from the baby life support systems charity. consultant paediatrician to oxford health authority, harvey markovitch says under normal health funding, the money just isn't available. special care baby units are phenomenally expensive in equipment; there's an awful lot of monitoring equipment that's required, and it has to be updated every few years, and the costs are quite out of proportion to the amount of money available to the health authority, so that er, on the whole, special care baby units throughout the country now rely virtually totally on charitable giving. a sports centre in north oxfordshire has had to close today because of a leakage of almost one thousand litres of potentially hazardous chemicals. fire crews were brought in with special chemical protection suits to deal with a spillage of nine hundred litres of sodium hypochlorite at the kidlington and gosford sports and leisure centre. leisure centre officials say they're, they hope to reopen later this evening. an oxford student has been remanded in custody for a week at a london magistrates court; twenty-one year old ajaiki akabasharune is jointly charged with a student from wolverhampton for conspiring with persons unknown to defraud the central clearing banks this august. miss akabasharune from banbury road in the city, is currently studying politics at the polytechnic. a major campaign is being launched today to try to reduce the number of sports-related eye injuries. the royal national institute for the blind says squash and badminton are the main culprits for eye casualties, and has begun the campaign of safe play as part of their eye safety year. thames valley police have appointed a new man to oversee the workings of its complaints and disciplinary department. chief superintendent john goodenough has been commander of b division covering all of oxfordshire for the last six years; it's been suggested his move signals the start of a major reorganization within the force, aimed at streamlining managerial duties. mr goodenough says he's looking forward to the new post at a time when complaints against the police have increased. complaints against police are obviously a problem for all of us, and we as managers throughout the rank structure are concerned about the complaints and it's simply that, whilst i was in operational command, i had a direct influence in hopefully preventing complaints. the role i have now, is dealing with the paper work and the efficiency investigation once a complaint has been made. fox f m new, paul kirby reporting.. it's a quarter past six. pressure is growing on the government to reach an out of court settlement with more than a thousand haemophiliacs who are infected with the aids virus from n h s blood. mr justice ognell, the high court judge hearing the cases against the government, took the highly unusual step of urging the government to compromise on the matter. health secretary, kenneth clarke has insisted in continuing with the case, arguing that the government risked establishing a dangerous precedent if it paid compensation when the n h s was not to blame. tory backbench pressure is growing for the department of health to make ex gratia payments to those in infected, and roger simms from the commons social services committee says the government should view the haemophiliacs as a special case; he says he was taken aback by the judges remarks. yes, i was surprised because it's an unusual course for a judge to take, but i was very encouraged that he chose to do so by the terms of his remarks. the judge has been very forthright in this er saying that er both sides er should er get round the table and try and find some speedy solution to it. er. i got, i got the impression that he was fairly exasperated at the way things had gone up to now. well i think he felt er as i do that it's unfortunate that matters have gone this far. in fact, together with several colleagues, i was endeavouring to set up an informal meeting with ministers to try and discuss this matter er when the haemophiliac's representative decided to go to law for their own good reasons, because that made it more difficult for any negotiations to take place. i hope now that perhaps the legal proceedings can be held in abeyance and discussions can take place so some out of court settlement can be reached as the judges are urging. well the health secretary, kenneth clarke er has, er has said er for some time now that er it would be grave consequences if the government established a precedent and just allowed er out of court settlement payments to be made. mr clarke seems to want to go through the whole er litigation process, what do you think about er his decision? well i, i can understand er his, his point of view in that firstly he's saying quite correctly, that this tragedy was no one person's fault. erm. and that if you open the doors to compensation whenever er this sort of thing arose, then th, this could mean very substantial expenditure for the health service. but this is a very special case, er we know the numbers involved precisely, it's as it were, a one off. you're listening to the fox report. labour has been outlining its policy on the economy at the party conference in blackpool. shadow chancellor john smith, dismissed mrs thatcher's so-called economic miracle as a mirage, but admitted things wouldn't suddenly improve under labour. there's no panacea; er it will take us a little while to get our programmes in place and to get them producing results. er. we want to be judged by a period in government. er margaret becker put it i think very well in the concluding speech; five years after a labour government, judge us on the difference you will see in our economy and in our society. but from day one we'll be working to achieve that result. kenneth baker yesterday said ‘well, the labour party hasn't changed; they're still a high spending, high taxation and high borrowing party’. why should the voters believe that the next labour government be any different from the past? well kenneth baker seems to live in a world of his own. i, he er wants to have an image about the labour party that's so far from the reality that it's not true. we are an investing party, er we want to invest in britain's future, in the skills of its people, er so that our education and training, instead of being neglected as almost the worst in europe during the period of mr baker's government, becomes one of the best in europe. in fact, we, we'd create the best educated and trained work force that there is in europe. we've got so much to do that requires investment which is why er i have said er that we cannot have in general, across the board tax cuts, er income tax cuts, because we need the money for that crucial social investment. mr baker's party takes a different view; they've only to explain to the public how we're going to succeed if we don't invest in our own future, in our education and training and in good social services for our people, because i don't see how it can be done. i think they're being irresponsible, i think we're being responsible, and i make no apology er for borrowing when it's for investment in our own future, that's what intelligent companies do, it's what an intelligent government should do. you're listening to the fox report, it's nineteen minutes past six.. it's twenty past six. oxfordshire's children's line is being relaunched this evening; posters carrying the slogan ‘help is only a phone call away’ have being up in schools and sports venues throughout the area, and the line opens at six thirty — ten minutes time. children's line had been forced to close through lack of cash, but now funds have been raised to get the service off the ground again; june nash who is on the service's committee has been instrumental in the relaunch. she says the volunteers who answer the phone are prepared to deal any problem a child contacts them with, no matter how small it may seem. we've got a lot of volunteers who we've er trained in listening skills and how to answer the phone, and how to deal with some of the problems that come up. it may be that er a child is being ill-treated in some way er by somebody, and we can help to decide what to do about that. what, what would the options be there, you would, would you, you, are you working with social services? no, we're nothing to do with social services at all. er the calls are totally confidential and it would depend entirely on the child as to really what happened, because er you can't say to a child ‘right i'm going to report this’, it doesn't happen like that. the child will indicate exactly how important it is and you've got to really find out whether they want to do something about it. well, yes they may want to do something about it, but they may be just too scared to give any details which would lead to something being done about it, i mean things can be done about it, but only if the child wants them done. we're never going to er say to the child ‘right, something must be done, we're going to do something’, it, it's not like that at all; the pace is wholly by the child themselves. you do need to, to let the children know that the service is there. i think there's been a lot, a lot of publicity for childline, now, but you aren't directly in, associated with childline fjn well, we've had, no, we've had to call ourselves children's line because for er obvious reasons we can't call ourselves childline, but it is the same type of thing, er run in a similar way, not exactly the same of course er partly because we haven't got the money that childline er attracts. i mean hopefully we will attract money because we can't function without it. i mean it must cost a fair amount of money to keep it going cause, the calls are free it does, the calls are free does that mean that you have to pay for them? yes it does, yes, which quickly eats up er into a call, i mean we're not going to put the phone down on anybody because we feel the call is expensive or anything, er we will always wait until the child her, themselves puts the phone down. if you've got a problem and want to talk, ring children's line o eight hundred six two six thousand. it's open in the evening, monday to friday, calls are free. you're listening to the fox report. this week is oxfam week; for the rest of the week oxford based, the oxford base charity will be banging the drum to remind people that it exists and to raise funds. paul clifford is the area director for the er region — paul, what sort of things are you going to be doing? well, oxfam week's principally aimed at a house, house to house collection jane, so we shall be asking a whole lot of people to get out on the streets and to put envelopes through the doors in their neighbourhood and then to go back later on and collect money which we hope people will kindly give us. so everybody in the area is going to receive, er a house, house, house visit? well, er we're very lucky that er oxford's pretty well covered, yes, we've, or could do with some more volunteers of course, but we've got about one hundred and twenty people who'll be going out in the city, and i was looking at a map this morning and it's very well covered indeed with purple and yellow lines where we've actually got people on the ground. it's, it's quite a big operation to organize i should think, is it? it's absolutely massive, yes, it's a national er campaign, so we've been recruiting people from all kinds of ways; direct mail, er getting in touch with people who've done it for us before, er through magazines and so on and the whole thing has been a major logistical undertaking. it's, it's, i mean everybody knows about oxfam, it's one of the most well-known charities i imagine in the whole of the country. er. do you need a day like this specifically to raise funds. well i think an awful lot of people think of oxfam and think of the shops, er and the shops have been terribly important to us for such a long time, but we've found a few years ago that er people who, er were asked said that they would give money to oxfam, but that they weren't necessarily always asked. and a lot of people of course don't go into our shops, so we feel that there are a lot of people out there who have a lot of sympathy for oxfam's aims and objectives, but are only lacking just the opportunity to give, and that's what we hope to provide them with. so have you any target for the amount of money you'd like to raise? well this is part of a one million er £ er campaign to try and raise money for a lot of projects that we run in eight countries in southern africa, from angola to mozambique, where our, the problems are absolutely horrendous er civil war in mozambique for example, in malawi, one in ten of the population are refugees, principally from mozambiquan civil war, arriving at refugee camps in bark and absolutely nothing er at all in terms of possessions. the drought in zimbabwe, so the needs are massive, and if we can just make some kind of a major inroad into one million pounds, then we will have given an awful lot of people new hope. paul, thank you very much indeed. thank you. the world summit for children which took place at the weekend caught the headlines around the world and the world's leaders put their heads together and agreed that children all round the world are suffering and something must be done about it. eileen polgreen from the organization results, eileen organized a candle-lit vigil before the summit, eileen, now the summit's over and we all heard about it, it, it hit the headlines as i say — what do you think came out of it? well i think what came out of it firstly, was thanks to people like you, a tremendous amount of publicity for a problem that is certainly not a new one, one that has been going on for many many years. but now i think there's a new feeling abroad that instead of trying to solve the poverty of third world countries, by providing them with aeroplanes, particularly for their armies and providing them with electricity generating plants, we should actually start at bottom; we should start with the children, in providing medicines, in providing enough food, so that those children will grow up and will be able to fend for themselves, providing them with skills, providing them also with markets for the goods that they'll produce. and therefore, helping third world countries and the people in them to generate their own well-being. now it's very easy for all the leaders around the world, not that easy to get them all together, but once they were together, it was very easy for them all to say yes the situation's dreadful, it's awful, it's awful. but do you think anything will actually come out of it — anything actually concrete? well, i think we had much higher hopes before the gulf crisis, i think what many people are saying now is that the peace dividend, the money that we could have saved by the end of the cold war, will in fact, that peace dividend will be diluted by the gulf. everybody is spending so much money, particularly the united states of course, which is the biggest donor, er on supplying armies and airforce and all the rest of it, in the gulf conflict. now, that is a terrible thing, because it means that whatever mr hussein has done, he has also in fact, written the death sentence for millions of children who will never have heard of him. and that is a terrible terrible thing that we've all got to face, but i think we have to realize that we have the potential, we have the ability of saving the lives of fifty million children, and the world's leaders at the conference, at the summit over the weekend, actually turned their minds for an instant, away from all those economic and political problems and focused on this, and i think that that was tremendously important. i was on the phone to unicef earlier this afternoon and they are very much encouraged by what has happened. i think here in the united kingdom, we have to continue trying to urge our governments to ratify the convention on the rights of the child, which is a sort of bill of rights for children. there are an awful lot of children in the united kingdom in fact who are living in the sort of poverty and who's parents are living in the sort of poverty which in a rich country like our own, should not be tolerated. how did you feel about mrs thatcher's contribution at the weekend? i thought it was a very er thatcherite contribution. she put the onus quite honestly straight back on to parents, er it reminded me a little bit like er of the furore that she created about you know there are so many people being mugged, well isn't it their own fault that they go into dark places. er. you know, about the crime statistics; really what she's saying is that parents ought to do a better job for their children, and i'm sure we all agree with that but i think that that's a very superficial response to what is er an enormous question of parents just being too poor and having nothing to give their children in the way of just basic food, basic medicines, to keep them alive. so do you think britain's lagging behind the rest of the world? i think that we have a very butch attitude, i think the government has a very butch attitude quite honestly, er to, you know, you've got to er stand up there and help yourself, and i suppose i'm all for that, but you've got to have something to help yourself with, and i think that's where we ought to be aiming and i'm very glad that the world's leaders are heading straight in that direction.. traffic seems to be running fairly, better now on the m twenty five, that's clockwise round junction sixteen where there was some earlier slow moving traffic. on the m four between junctions fifteen and sixteen, the outside and centre lanes are closed westbound, that's between swindon east and swindon west, and on the a four two three, that's near hopcroft's holt and steeple aston, there's resurfacing work there and that's causing some delays. a six o four,catworth to stratford and there's single line traffic working there, and er on the m, sorry, the m four that's er seems to be running fairly smoothly, westbound traffic is a little slow moving however. and er on the m forty between junctions four and five between high wycombe and stokenchurch, there are two narrow lanes in both direction with a contraflow system at boulter end which might add to the confusion, and that's got single line traffic running both ways. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and i've nothing to report to you still from either the buses or trains. it's six thirty-one. president bush has told the united nations that if iraq pulls out of kuwait, it could end conflict between the arabs and the israelis. he says the world must examine the future for the middle east when the gulf crisis is over. the man who was in charge of the a s, er the s a s storming of the iranian embassy ten years ago is to lead britain's forces in the gulf; fifty-six year old lieutenant general sir peter de la beliaire was due to retire in november. thousands of commuters are facing delays and cancellations after british rail maintenance staff voted for a series of twenty four hour strikes; they're protesting at b r's plans to close three maintenance depots. and the shadow education shec, secretary, jack straw says cabinet ministers should show their support for state education and stop sending their children to private schools. he told the labour conference in blackpool that the cabinet should set an example by having faith in the public seft sector. the weather for the fox f m area: a dry but mainly cloudy evening and night, the minimum temperature eight degrees celsius, forty-six degrees fahrenheit, and the wind could pick up to become moderate south-westerly during the evening.. still to come, the therapeutic effect of gardening, helping people to recover from mental illness in oxford, and the day's financial and sports news. first though, the princess royal has been asking oxfordshire landowners to help the county's rural housing needs. her royal highness was addressing a conference on affordable village homes for oxfordshire, organized by the county council and the rural housing trust, of which she's president. land expert at the trust, simon potts says he welcomes the call for farmers to sell land at near agricultural prices, but admits there's not much to be built, not much in it for the landowners themselves. we have a situation where the landowner is going to have to sell land relatively cheaply, in order that the land then, the land prices do not reflect too horrendously when it comes through to the price that has to be paid by the person who's going to occupy the property; either in terms of a letting figure or of something which is going to be an, effectively a mortgage figure. so that we've got to get land in at something in the order of ten to fifteen thousand pounds an acre for residential development, and that obviously is hugely under the going rate. is there any compensation at all if a landowner were to make a gesture like this? no, no compensation as such, there are opportunities occasionally for landowners to ask that er one of the houses might for example be used for one of their own workers er when that worker retires, that type of thing. so that we're prepared within the rural housing trust to look at all these ideas, and we've been looking at the whole question, we feel that this has got to be one for the planners, the planners must be involved in identifying where these problems lie, they're not uniform, all across the country, er and it's something that er we therefore need to use the planning er scenario entirely and fully in order to identify where the problem lies. the regional secretary of the country landowners association, richard lethbridge, agrees that planners have an important role to play, and he's got his own ideas about how to solve the problem. the way forward, if it's the desire of the community to find more low cost houses for people to live in, in villages, i think the way is to give some incentive to farmers and landowners to give er or to make land available. and as there isn't the money available to do it at full commercial price, in my view we should go for what they call cross-subsidy, that is to say that they give erm planning permission on a plot for some commercial housing on which the landowner can make some money, and in, a condition of that would be that part of that plot would be made available for low cost housing. that way, i think that some land might become available, but it would have to be up to the planners to be more flexible. so, what would be your message then to the planners? well i think we'll have to re-look at the whole question of village envelopes in certain cases, where it is decided that low cost housing is desirable, and see if in some way, they can encourage the farmer to make land available so that he can make some money which he badly needs at the moment, as agriculture's going through one of the biggest depressions it's been through for years. you're listening to the fox report. a new system of fines has been introduced to courts in north oxfordshire today, and it's been viewed by the government with much interest. magistrates in banbury, chipping norton, bicester and woodstock have adopted a scheme which fines offenders according to their income. paul kirby reports. pilot projects have already taken place in two other parts of england, but magistrates in oxfordshire are confident alterations make theirs a fairer scheme. home office minister, john patten who's also mp for oxford west and abingdon, says the scheme is much fairer than at present. what will happen is that the magistrates will judge if someone's found guilty, that because they've committed the offence, that they deserve to be fined so many units. they will then see what the man or woman has got left in disposable income each week; if it's two pounds, then it'll be ten units x two pounds, if it's two hundred pounds, then it'll be ten units x two hundred pounds to hit the better off in the same proportion as the people at the bottom of the income level. trevor isles who's deputy clerk to the justices in north oxfordshire is also confident the unit fine system will be fairer, he says ‘if successful, it could be adopted on a national scale’. the government has not at this stage, legislated in this area, but i understand in their next white paper, they probably will take away the ceiling that presently exists, so that a rich offender could pay a lot more for his fine than er a person of average means. mr isles says ‘legal officials in south oxfordshire have already expressed an interest’, and home office minister, john patten agrees the fairess of the system is something that should be envied. we think that'll lead to fairer fining, and i think that's right, and i welcome what's going on in north oxfordshire; it follows four experiments that the home office has had in other parts of the country. good luck to banbury in doing it. you're listening to the fox report. restore is a local charity which helps people recovering from psychiatric illnesses, by offering them therapeutic working environments. one of the groups they run is a gardening group and liz hodgson coordinates this one. liz, tell me a little bit about it, i mean, er there er gardening is a very therapeutic thing to do anyway isn't it? that's what people always say, yes. er. i mean we provide a group environment for people who've had psychiatric illnesses of various kinds in the past, and with a view to giving them something useful to do, something constructive and i hope, pleasurable, with a positive end product as well, which we then proceed to sell. is it, is it a long term thing, do people come for the day, or do they stay with you for months? well, people come on a day to day basis, like a working environment, right? er each individual will stay for a different length of time, it could be weeks, months, even years. but each person is different so time to see the garden develop as oh yes, yes, very much so, yes, and with this new project that's really exciting because it's on an allotment site which has never actually happened before with a psychiatric rehabilitation project. and er now the group are beginning to be able to take a lot of pride in what they've done, you know, changing it from a jungle into a productive allotment. was it actually started from scratch with this one did you? absolutely, literally, yes. how far has it got? well, we're on the second summer, just finishing now, and we're having quite a lot of produce coming off the plots, and we're hoping to start an orchard as well, just to keep it developing. so what we're always looking for now is outlets for the produce. i was going to say, you must have a lot of, er a lot of produce, er where does it go, what do you well, what we've just started to do thanks to some of the people up at templar square, in cowley, is to have a vegetable stall on thursdays in cowley centre, which is quite a big step. er. so we're doing that every day from, every thursday that is, from ten till one thirty, and people who are doing their shopping can come by and have their fresh vegetables. so it, it's pretty professional stuff if you're able to sell it? oh yes, oh absolutely, i mean it wouldn't be therapeutic if we weren't producing good quality stuff, that's part of the therapy — yes? and how is it all, how is it all financed and funded? well, we have funding from all over. the health authority support us, the social services, the city council, and we do accept donations as well, i might add. but you are an independent charity are you? that's right yes, yes. and, and how do people find out about you if they've perhaps been through psychiatric illness? well, people tend to be referred through the psychiatric services as they currently exist locally, er or through their g p. its, it's a different process for each person you see, because everyone who's had a mental illness is, is going to be different from another person; a different history. so, as far as you're concerned, really you need outlets for your vegetables do you? yes, well i mean i'm particularly interested for people to come along to the cowley centre stall, er and we also sell on the cowley road at our plant nursery which one of the other groups runs down near the east oxford health centre. what, what other groups are, are involved? well, apart from the elder stubbs group on the allotments, we have a town gardens group which is at cowley road, on our main site; they run a plant nursery there which is normally open every day, and will be open this saturday as well, on the sixth er to sell wallflowers and autumn plants in particular . and then on that site as well, there's a print group and a woodwork group, so there's quite a range, a diversity of opportunities for people, that's what we try to provide.. have reversed last week's closing falls, finishing the day forty point six points higher at two o three o point eight. trading was helped by the release of august's reduced retail sales figures showing that interest rates are beginning to bite. and an encouraging start on wall street followed the announcement that a budget settlement had been reached. on the foreign exchanges the pound gained ground against the dollar with news that u s interest rates may be reduced. the pound ended the day at one point eight eight nine five dollars and up against the deutschmark, at two deutschmarks point nine three o nine. today's share prices: abbey national up one at one nine seven, british aerospace up nineteen at five six three, british airways up three at one four eight, british gas up four at two one o point five british telecom up four at two six eight, goodhead publishing group remained at five, at fifty-eight, moreland brewers up two at two seven five, oxford instruments remained at two three four, thames water are up two point five at two one nine, trustee savings bank up point five at one twenty and today's major stockmarket movers: reuters went up forty-four to seven eight eight and glaxo up twenty seven at seven five seven. you're listening to the fox report. it's official, britain's number one motor racing driver, nigel mansell is on his way back to his former team williams who are based in didcot in south oxfordshire. mickey inotta our sports editor — mickey, it's a bit of a surprise isn't it? it was to me jane, i was still in bed, we had to send robin powell down there to get the interviews. but it was, but it's good news for oxfordshire isn't it — nigel back to williams. williams of course, the team that nearly gave nigel his world championship, we all remember that burst tyre, he's never liked spaghetti, the italians don't like him, they only like winners, it's impossible to win every race. nigel did his best, but i'm so pleased he's back in oxfordshire. he came pretty close at one time. this year, er been a bit iffy, and what do you reckon his chances are next year? i'm not sure, a boxer never returns, a tennis player never comes back, bjorn borg didn't. i don't know with motor racing, i, i just wish nigel mansell all the very best, but i just don't think he's ever going to win that world championship. oh dear, a prediction there, well the team boss, frank williams says he's delighted with the decis, decision, the decision and he now wants to help mansell achieve his ambition of becoming world champion before he finally does hang up his helmet. everyone at didcot, myself included, are truly elated about it because we're in the business of winning, nigel's a winner; if we can provide him with the right technical equipment next year, i'm sure he'll win a number of races and indeed his ambition and our objective jointly is to win a driver's, a world championship driver's title before he retires. now this decision's been off and on. he said after silverstone he'd be retiring at the end of the season. what do you think made him change his mind in the end? well i suspect that initially his silverstone decision was perhaps made prematurely, it was certainly a rather an emotional decision i think. but the fact that he's a born racer, i mean i know him quite well, i've seen him around a lot, i would talk to him a lot, so would other colleagues here, every race since that decision, i think without trying, he persuaded himself, we were able to persuade him without trying too hard that maybe he should reconsider; i think time did the rest. is he the same driver that you let go two years ago, he's an old man of the track a little at, he hasn't had a terribly successful time at ferrari. he's a better driver than he was when he left us, us in eighty-eight, because he's two years, has two years more experience and in formula one racing, experience, if you are a quick driver, experience is fundamentally important to winning. you have to be very clever to win races these days, and i'm totally convinced and so is everybody else here that nigel will win enough races providing his car is quick enough and reliable enough to win a world championship. it was no secret that at the time you were looking for john alaysi perhaps to replace bootsen next season. were you disappointed not to get alaysi? there's no doubt about that because the young man has got a brilliant, truly brilliant future ahead of him. he's in all the typical things a young man who's too quick does, that's fly off the road all the time, but that's part of the normal learning curve, and i think that he'll be trouble for every team that doesn't have him in their actual car at the time. he'll be very quick and i do regret that he's not here. i'll finish with the perennial question — can williams challenge the ferraris and mclarens next season? well, in the last ten years, and this is only history, what really matters is tomorrow, ferrari won one driver's title and williams and mclaren won the rest. we intend to repeat that exercise. you're listening to the fox report. well that was a look forward to er mansell's er rejoining williams next season. little bit of a look back now to the inaugural blenheim or audi international horse trials at er blenheim palace of course, which was a great success. thousands of people trod through somewhat muddy conditions, mickey was there, what were your thoughts mickey, did you have a good few days? absolutely, it was absolutely fantastic and despite the rain, spectators enjoyed themselves and course designer mike etherington-smith is a genius, and locally we had something to cheer us, you may have heard earlier. owen moore on locomotion finished fourth, john evans from faringdon on the cordwina the second took exception to one fence in the show jumping round, he finished twelfth, he didn't like that one very much. jane starkie, she, she would have been in the frame had it not been for penalty points during the cross country course, for being a wee bit too slow. but my heart went out to anne marie taylor-evans, an excellent, an excellent dressage discipline was followed by a good gallop in the cross country until the bridle broke. oh! so, you know, tears went out to her, but i'd also like to thank everybody at audi who helped me, and also his grace, the duke of marlborough for letting the event take place. who, have i mentioned jane, we had tea and biscuits in the east wing the other day? the, the odd twenty or thirty times , you have mickey, i mean it was the success, is, is it likely to happen again next year? hopefully, i mean the grounds now are ooh, very muddy and awful, but the duke himself, he was very pleased with it, he attended every day, i mean he had a very nice bowler hat, he was very pleased with it, everybody was happy with it; it is oxfordshire's sporting showpiece without a doubt. was saying the overall winner was lucinda murray on just jeremy, and er he first asked her over er a glass of champagne i believe, celebrating her twenty-fifth birthday with a party on friday, er was that beneficial to success? well it helps sometimes, but er i didn't know . now, about blenheim overall — what are your thoughts? a super, super three days, er nobody knew what to expect when we came here, except that mike etherington-smith was going to build a super course. it's been great great success for everybody, er all the competitors have enjoyed it, i think all the organizers have enjoyed it as well and i think we're all looking forward to coming back next year. obviously it seems to me a good grounding for the younger horses? yes, but the cross country course was ideal, er if you wanted to get round carefully and slowly, you could, and if you wanted to go fast and furious, we did. you're listening to the fox report. building work got underway today to start the renovations for the oxford playhouse. let's hope that work which is going to cost around three quarters of a million pounds will be finished by the spring of next year. while the works going on, it's unlikely that anyone will notice much evidence of the renovation, as playhouse spokesperson, nicola russell explained. i honestly don't think that the public walking past the building will actually notice very much, except that in the foyer, they're going to be knocking down the sort of glass partition, so you, people will see that a little bit is going on. but most of the work is going on actually in the auditorium where they're stripping out all the wood er and putting in great big holes where they can put the fire exits in. so the normal man in the street won't see a great deal until very much nearer the time when it opens next spring. and how many people will it hold when it is fully refurbished? roughly six hundred and fifty-four. and what sort of productions will you be hoping to put on there? all sorts. we'll be inviting people to come in and do pre-west end shows, small operas, small musicals, er concerts, films, you name it. how do you think it'll complement what exists at the moment, which is the apollo and of course, the recently opened old fire station? well, the old fire station is about three hundred seats, the apollo seats one thousand two hundred, and we seat as i said about six hundred and fifty. we couldn't do the likes of, we couldn't invite glyndebourne in or the welsh national opera because we just could not have that scale of operation on. but those aren't the two, only two opera companies for instance, in the country, there are some fantastic opera companies who er, who work on a much smaller scale, who, in a sense, would not fill somewhere like the apollo, who are just perfect for, for us. the same thing with pre-west end shows — quite often, i mean for instance, there was a show at the apollo about six months ago which was lettuce and lovage, er which had come out of the west end and was doing a big tour. now, that in a sense, would have fitted much much better into the playhouse, and had we been open at that stage, there's a jolly good chance that that show would have actually come to us rather than going there. i'm glad it went there, because we all got a chance to see it, but the chances are it would have come to us and, and fitted much more snugly if you like. how soon will it be before you'll know what is going to be the first production? erm pass,probably in a couple of months. you're listening to the fox report, it's eight minutes to seven. on the m four between junctions fifteen and sixteen, that's the stretch between swindon east and swindon west, the outside and central lanes are closed westbound for some roadworks that are going on there. and on the a four two three near to hopcroft's holt and steeple aston, there's resurfacing work there and that's causing some delays. m forty between junctions four and five, between high wycombe and stokenchurch, that's down to two narrow lanes in both directions and the additional problem of a contraflow at boulter end with single line traffic running both ways. and on the a thirty-six one at wardington, that's just north of banbury, there are twenty-four hour temporary traffic lights which might slow you down a little, and on the a four one five five, reading road, shiplake, there are also temporary traffic lights causing some delays. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and i've nothing to report on the buses or trains. it's six minutes to seven. today saw the opening of a new science centre in oxford. the old fire station on george street now houses a permanent exhibition of working science aimed at schoolchildren. the centre's backed by the oxford trust and it's assistant director, gillian pearson says ‘the project is a hands on science gallery for everyone’. fox f m reporter, tiffany foster asked her how the curiosity exhibition works. what we're hoping to do in this exhibition is to make people realize that science and technology is not as difficult as some people would have you believe, and that it can be fun. so, anybody entering the exhibition is encouraged to stand on a spot at the bottom of the stairs, and they place in the token that they've bought at the box office, as they do so, they get flooded in light, and the special computer voice made by the university takes you through into the exhibition. they all seem to be in one exhibit, that is obviously the favourite. which, which, which is that? the favourite exhibit so far, with, with the first party of schoolchildren is the one that's called safety in the dark. er. you may have seen the fluorescent stars and space ships that children stick on their bedroom ceiling that then glow in the dark. what we have here is, is a huge sheet of this material on the wall, and the visitors stand in front of this and press a flashlight which allows them then to make all sorts of poses on the wall, and as they then move away, their shadow is left on the wall so they can look back and see what their, their shadow was like in the pose. er. at the moment i think, in there, there are probably sixteen children . where did the idea come for, from to have er an exhibition, a permanent exhibition, er at the old fire station? er apollo leisure had decided that they would like to have arts and science under the same roof, er the arts has been something that's considered an acceptable cultural pastime, and people will go out at weekends, take the family and will do something that, they would look at an exhibition, er or they would go to the theatre, whereas in science, there isn't really anything that you can do as a social or cultural pastime. so, there are these sort of centres all over the country, er but this is the first time that there has been one that has arts and science under the same room. er. and it is very much intended to be an educational experience for people as well as fun. you're listening to the fox report. this sunday the world-wide fun for nature's walk for the rain forest is taking place, and that there are three hundred walks going on throughout the country, four of them are in oxfordshire, and sue may is, is concentrating on the walks at burford wildlife park and also the one at banbury. sue, less than a week to go, how is it all shaping up — lots of people involved? it's terrific jane actually, the buzz is really out there, it's just what we hoped would happen, and really very much thanks to fox in fact, er it seems to be happening. we know that er sixteen schools at least are taking part at the cotswold wildlife park, er we know of at least ten at the walk at broughton park, er we've got er students from polytechnics, brownies, guides, headington slimmers magazine club have registered a team, the advisory centre for multicultural education, oxford city courier newspaper are promising to send teams. banbury guardian and citizen, the banbury town liberals , the campaign for oxford even have registered a team. the list goes on, i mean can you, can you make any sort of judgement about the sort of money you're going to raise, if, if all these people are going to be taking part? oh, it's, it's terrifying that we're all actually sitting here in enormous anticipation, because i think we're going to er present an astonishing amount of money this time. we just want people to get the money in very quickly after the seventh of november, er but we'll hopefully know after sunday evening, er what we reckon to have raised in the area. are you, er is it still time, or is there still time for people to get involved if they haven't already filled in their application form? oh yes, yes yes, er forms are available, as you keep telling people, from fox, they're also available from the banbury guardian office in banbury and littlewoods in banbury. er. both the littlewoods actually, banbury and oxford are putting up teams, and so are, we understand, fifteen of the natwest banks in oxfordshire, so there's a lot going on and er we think the walks in oxfordshire are going to go a long way towards raising this vitally needed million pounds for the rainforests this year and, and where's it actually going to, ‘i mean, we, we say the rainforests, er where, how? well, we have er w w f, the world wide fund for nature has two hundred and seventy five projects already up and running er in rainforest areas of the world, and there are constant demands for more projects to be undertaken, and of course, all this costs money; for men, machinery, equipment er and persuading governments, talking to people to make sure that we, if we can't halt this devastating destruction of rainforests, at least we can slow it down. so, if people can't get hold of an application form, can they still turn up on the day, i think that's the final thing isn't it? if they want to come along on the day and enjoy themselves, that's fine; we're even providing a bouncy castle, so children can bounce for the rainforests at the banbury walk . sue, thank you very much indeed. and that was the fox report for monday the first of october, nineteen ninety. join us for another fox report at six tomorrow evening, i'll be back then, but don't go away, after the seven o'clock news, steve priestley, no, not steve priestley, a mystery person is on the red fox , at, after the news at seven o'clock. tonight: germany will be reunified, we talk to a former ambassador. oxfam praise jordan's commitment to the refugees from iraq, despite severe economic problems. they've been using enormous amounts of their own resources and expertise, to make life easier for, for the people who are going through their country. councillors meet polytechnic official to discuss building of student hostel on headington hill. we are sympathetic but we also cannot ride roughshod over the concerns of the local community. fjm and french gendarmes visit an oxford school to teach their brand of road safety. when we teach pupils, in the same time we teach their parents.. the six o'clock news, this is patrick muirhead. neil kinnock is warning the labour party to be ready to fight an election at any time. mr kinnock presenting himself as the country's next prime minister, won a standing ovation at his party conference at blackpool. our political editor peter murphy reports: it was a confident neil kinnock who hammered home his attack on the government and set out his stall for the election, concentrating on the economy, investment and education. he declared: we are fit and we are ready, not just to win, but to govern the people of this country. let us fulfil that purpose, not for own advantage, but out of our duty to the people of our country and the people of our world. the party loved it, they gave him a standing ovation and mr kinnock went back for an encore to tell them to save their strength for the election. peter murphy, i r n, blackpool. a french warship has opened fire on a freighter suspected of breaking sanctions against iraq. the north korean vessel stopped after the warning shots were fired in the red sea near yemen, but nothing intended for iraq was found. a hundred and twenty people have been killed after terrorists exploded a bomb in the cockpit of a plane they were trying to highjack in south china. the pilot wrestled with the highjackers as he desperately tried to land the plane at canton airport, it then slammed into two other passenger jets. chinese authorities are releasing few details and state t v has made no mention of the disaster. ward edmonds reports: the official death toll now stands at one hundred and twenty with fifty-three people, including one american, injured. chinese officials are saying the plane was highjacked, but are remaining tight-lipped about any other details. reliable sources in kwang chow say the highjackers were trying to take the plane to hong kong, but it was forced down by military jets. one of the highjackers then detonated a bomb which shattered the fuselage, causing the plane to land on top of a fully laden boeing seven five seven that was waiting to take off. ward edmonds i r n, hong kong. the lockerbie enquiry's been suspended for two days after a solicitor representing families of american victims, died in a car crash. thirty-seven year old michael hughes, who was married with five children, was driving home to glasgow from the enquiry in dumfries, when he collided with a lorry. in the first legal case of it's kind in an english court, a man's been accused of raping his wife. the woman's alleged to have lived in constant fear of her estranged husband, who's said to have kidnapped her on her way to work. this report from simon irwin: sheffield crown court heard that the man, who can't be named for legal reasons, kidnapped his twenty seven year old wife and took her to an isolated spot on the moors above the city and raped and sexually assaulted her. he denied all the charges against him. in scotland last year, husbands lost their immunity from rape in marriage after a test case, and earlier this year, in leicester, a man was jailed for three years for the lesser offence of attempting to rape his wife. the case in sheffield continues. simon irwin i r n sheffield. the wartime allies have officially handed control of berlin back to the berliners; the two germanies will become a single nation at the stroke of midnight. seventy-six romanians who came to britain for a pontins holiday are asking for political asylum, they're among two hundred of their countrymen who arrived at a pontins camp near bristol on sunday for a weeks stay. john beasley has more: the romanians have been leaving pontins bream sands centre in somerset to turn themselves in at police stations across the west country. most, speaking no english, have been handing over notes asking for political asylum. romanians have only been allowed to travel abroad since the revolution; pontins have entertained over five hundred this summer, but they're describing the situation as highly unusual. some of the asylum seekers are now being put up at bed and breakfast hotels in bristol and weston-super-mare. the home office say they'll all be interviewed, but their visas entitle them to stay in britain for six months. john beasley, i r n, bristol. english fans could find themselves alongside rival hungarians when manchester united lead football league clubs back into europe tomorrow after a five year absence. united's carefully laid segregation plans could be undermined if the hungarian team pecsimunkas go ahead with selling around two thousand tickets at random tomorrow morning. independent radio news.. it's tuesday the second of october, nineteen ninety. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. germany will be reunited tonight; the ceremony takes place at midnight when berlin will become the capital of an independent germany. sir julian willard was british ambassador to west germany from nineteen eighty-four to nineteen eighty-eight. sir julian, it's er a momentous occasion, what does it all mean? well, it means quite a lot for the people who are living in germany, especially the ones who are living in the east, because their economy has been so run down, it's got to be put through a sort of shock treatment. and something like two million people have got to stop doing jobs they should never have been doing in the first place, like er polluting the rivers and the soil and the air, and spying on each other and contributing to the overmanning that there is in east germany. and they have to move to other industries, er productive industries and service industries and er communications for example which is very run down, and that's going to take i should think, six to nine months of really hard work and suffering, and and a political clean up at the same time, because in the schools and universities for instance, er nobody could get a job in the old days, who wasn't politically reliable, and all those people have got to be moved. so there's a lot to do in east germany. er, in spite of the fact that the germanies were at one time united, it, it's almost a culture shock i suppose. very big, and also for the west germans, because they've got to absorb these sixteen million or so new er citizens and they've got to pay for them until they pay for themselves, and meanwhile they've got to carry various international costs, especially payments to russia for the russian troops who are going to stay on for three or four years, and pay for them to withdraw and pay to build barracks for them in, in russia so that they can withdraw. so it's a heavy burden for west germany as well. and there was huge euphoria when the berlin wall was, was knocked down, and in a way, we've also heard recently that the gilt has perhaps been knocked off that ge, gingerbread as, as the real economic truths are hitting home. are you er hopeful that this is, is the start of something good? oh, i'm absolutely sure it is, as, as i say there will be a few months of real suffering in, in eastern germany and it may be a year and a half to two years before east germany begans to, begins to show up plus figures, er on, instead of minus figures on the national statistics. but in the long run, it's bound to strengthen germany's economy tremendously, in fact some people think it's going to strengthen it a bit too much, because it's, it's strong enough er already. now there was some dispute over whether berlin or bonn should be the capital, they've come down on the side of berlin, but is that dispute settled now? not really, they've put in their treaty that er berlin is the capital of the united germany, but that the seat of government will be chosen by the newly elected all-german parliament, which has got to be chosen early in december, and they could still say ‘well we have the capital in berlin, but the seat of the government will remain in bonn, and up in berlin the president will have his office and some meetings will take place, but the ministries and foreign embassies and so on, and all the traffic jams that go with that, can jolly well stay in bonn’. i think it, they might decide that. now, now you did mention it, it is going to be an enormous country now, what implications does that have for the european community? it's going to be about er, er twenty-five percent larger than france, britain and italy in population. it's still actually going to be smaller than france in area, it's quite interesting to er remember that, but it's economic power is already way ahead of anyone elses, and that's going to increase. well i think it, we should er congratulate ourselves in having the european community as a piece of machinery inside which it's possible to contain a power the size of germany. i'd m, be much more worried if we had germany outside the european community. i suppose the next, the next big thing will be the elections that are coming up? yes. that, that'll be something very different for people in east germany. well it will, they haven't had a free election except for one they had in rather stressful circumstances a few months ago, since oh, the early er ninteen thirties, and one er wonders whether the population could be going to administer to mr kohl the same sort of surprise that the british population administered to churchill in nineteen forty-five. on the whole i don't think so, i think probably the present government will, will get back quite easily, but it's a possibility. all in all, a very exciting day i think. i think so. sir julian, thank you very much. thank you... thames valley police report no major delays throughout the fox f m area this evening, however roadworks continue on the a three six one at wardington, there's resurfacing work going on there. the a four one, ruscote avenue in banbury is completely closed southbound at the junction with orchard way, for paving work there. on the a four two two alcester bypass there's a single lane working only for roadworks, and finally again on the a four one near gaydom proving ground , there's temporary traffic lights during the daytime only. natalie proud, a a roadwatch. and i've nothing to report to you on either the buses or the trains.. still to come: oxfam pays tribute to jordan's help for refugees from iraq. first with a round up of the day's local news, here's paul kirby. thames water say they'll come down hard on anyone caught breaking the new drought order which has come into force today. the order could last up to six months and affects areas in the west of oxfordshire, including carterton, brize norton and surrounding villages. although thames water say they haven't yet prosecuted over previous bans, water resources manager dave cook says they may have to clamp down further. at the end of it there's the chance that we may have to take action; we'd take that very much as a last resort, and we hope our customers will respond without the necessity for fines or prosecutions. we have er patrols, patrols out in the erm out in the area as part of our normal job, if they see anybody infringing the order, they'll have a word with them and er make sure they know about it, and apart from that, as i say, we're appealing to the good sense of our customers, we are in a very serious situation. police are appealing for witnesses following a traffic accident in north oxfordshire this morning. an articulated lorry and a ford sierra car collided on the a thirty-four near enstone at about nine o'clock this morning. the lorry jackknifed and hit a stone wall causing serious injuries to the driver. witnesses or anyone else with any further information about the incident, is urged to contact the local police. police in north oxfordshire are expressing concern about a recent spate of bicycle thefts; over the past month, over twenty have been stolen in the banbury area. christine honesom of banbury police is warning residents to take extra care with their bikes. since the first of september till the twenty-sixth of september, we've had thirteen bikes go all over banbury, and since the twenty-sixth of september it seems to have increased and we've had eight of various sorts go, er ranging from a hundred to a hundred and ninety pounds. er three have gone from schools in the easington area, three have gone from the bretchill area, so that's a total of what, twenty-one for september. anti poll tax complainers in oxfordshire will be lobbying the vale of white horse district council this evening, asking them to refuse to use bailiffs in the collection of the community charge. at a meeting of the finance committee members will pr, make a progress report on how the poll tax collection is going, and campaigners say they intend to put pressure on councillors in an attempt to get them to review the collection process. an eleven year old boy from didcot is in a comfortable condition in hospital following an, an attack by his pet dog. philip turner was taken to the radcliffe infirmary in the city after his nose was, was bitten off last night. finally sport: oxford united have made a new signing this afternoon; jim magilton has joined from liverpool for a hundred thousand pounds. he makes his football league debut for oxford in tomorrow's away match at west ham. twenty-one year old magil magilton attributes his signing to the manager's enthusiasm. definitely, yes, i would say like i've spoke to brian horton on sunday and he more or less said that it's er oxford united,fourth position in the league, let's hope so like you know, they are like, and i've come here maybe to help get them in a better position. because i believe, that only through him, what he's told me about the club, that it's a nice club, a nice base for me to start off my career, because that's what i really am doing. and we'll have late, more on this story later in the fox report. fox f m news, phil kirby reporting . it's thirteen minutes past six. buckingham's mp george walden is holding a public meeting in his constituency tonight aimed at allowing people to air and share their views on the gulf crisis. mr walden says he's received numerous letters since the iraqi invasion two months ago, and felt it important to take the opportunity to talk with the people he represents. the one-time diplomat who's served in the gulf says concern appears to have grown about the way things are developing. my constituents, er many of them will be concerned personally because they may have a relative in the army, now that we've got ground troops out there, or they may have a relative who's lived there or, or you know, god forbid, some of, some of them may have relatives who, who are hostages. er. and so this is something that is going to touch an awful lot of people if it does turn sour, so all the more reason for me to be able to explain how i see it, and as i say, to hear how, what people think about the crisis. with so many forces going there, do you think britain is going to be taking part in this sort of international peace-keeping force for some time to come? well i think so, yes. now, now that we are, are there i think we will stay there, and rightly, and i must say that er we have and i have a lot of confidence in the way the americans have handled this so far, i think president bush has done very well. er. he's been very careful er not to sound too bellicose, er but to keep force in reserve. he's also been careful to work er with the united nations who have done er much better so far than they have in er some crises in the past. er. and so i, i think the americans are, are doing a good job, er but there are many many pitfalls ahead, and, and i hope that now that we've got more troops there, that we will be er carefully consulted, er the whole time before any er drastic action is taken. how significant do you think the warming of relations between britain and iran is in the whole scenario in the gulf? it, it's only part of, of the pattern, but it's obviously er a good sign because er iran has reason to know er what saddam hussein is like, having been at war with him for eight years — totally un, unpredictable man and a completely ruthless man. now of course, some people might say well the iranians er haven't covered themselves with glory one way and another in the last few years, and that of course , is true. er. but unfortunately, in international relations, you have to er work with, with the grain, and if it is a case that the iranians are taking a fairly er tough line on iraq, well this is clearly to be encouraged because saddam hussein must be er surrounded, he must be isolated, the sanctions must work, and i'm sorry to say this, but the country of iraq must suffer in order that those sanction work, because if it doesn't suffer, and if the sanctions don't work, there is a danger of war, and that will be immensely costly to our side as well as being the end for saddam hussein. you're listening to the fox report. the water shortage faced by thousands of refugees in jordan has been eased with the help of the oxford based charity oxfam. every day thousands of returnees from occupied kuwait are still entering jordan, putting pressure on the country's resources and causing friction between the people fleeing the country. oxfam sent out three engineers to the camps who installed water shortage, er, er water storage equipment. the team leader, paul sherlock says there still have considerable problems in the country. the atmosphere with the actual returnees themselves is one of concern and apprehension i guess, because they're concerned that they've been involved in this, this crisis and they're not quite sure what's happening, and they are er not really being told by everybody, you know, there's just too many people to make it very clear where they're all going and when they're all going. and therefore most people are, are, are so, you know, concerned about their, their particular out, you know, what's going to happen, are, does their government know that they are there? er what's going to happen when they get back into india, sri lanka, bangladesh, philippines or, or pakistan or wherever. er they've lost most of their goods, er they've had to leave enormous amounts of, of, of their personal belongings in, in kuwait, they're, they're not physically in bad shape, but mentally they're, they're very anxious and, and they know they've lost a lot of belongings. has the water been able to ease some of the worries and concerns in the camps? yes, i mean you may well have seen on the television, some of the first film of some of the camps, that the first sort of rioting was about water. er. and that's why we, we were dispatched out to jordan, er at sort of very very quick, very short notice. the water side now is actually, is, is, is, is more or less all sorted out. the, we've been working with the water authorities as i said, they've pulled all the stops out to provide the actual water resource and we've provided the tanks and the distribution systems. and, you know, with, with their help the whole thing has gone together quite nicely, so it's, it's from the water point of view, the basic problems are, are solved. are you pleased with what you achieved? yes, we're very very pleased actually, i mean we were pleased with the fact that we were able to contribute to it because one of the nice things about working, for us, working for the jordanian water authority, was that the jordanians themselves have put so much commitment into this er situation, they're, so much of their own resources and energy has gone into looking after, you know, very large groups of people who really are of no benefit to the country whatsoever. the economic situation in the country is, is, is going down and down and down, and they're being squeezed by this whole crisis. and yet they've been using enormous amounts of their own resources, both finance and, and manpower resources and expertise to make life easier for, for the people who are going through their country. you're listening to the fox report. a government minister, last week appointed to look after green affairs, says he can't rule out a three pound gallon of petrol at the pumps. eric forth has been telling an international petroleum seminar in dunstable that there's no need to step in and limit the price rises. then he points out that two enquiries by the monopolies and mergers commission and the office of fair trading have cleared the oil companies of malpractice. in spite of what one reads and hears, we can take that as being a pretty definitive er word on, on the fact that we're not being conned or ripped off in any way at all. now mr wakeham said yesterday that high petrol prices are here to stay, considering what you've just said, does that mean we can see a three pound gallon around the corner? well i, it's difficult of course to look any distance ahead, er against the background of what's happening in the gulf. but er interestingly, the americans have just put er more tax on to their gas for, for different reasons admittedly, and er the environmentalists er always feel happy about that because they've been the ones who've been telling us for years that er petrol is if anything underpriced, and that we're rather profligate in the way that we use it, so er at least some people are happy out of this, not everybody, but it, but er it's making some people happier. petrol sales at the pumps have dropped by fifteen percent — is that bad news for the government in terms of revenue? well er funnily enough, revenue considerations are of, er certainly not anywhere near the top of the list as far as that's concerned. one could argue quite the opposite, that a major drop in p, petrol use, is good in terms of environmental factors, economic factors and so on. it won't be very good for the petrol companies that i've been visiting here today, but every cloud tends to have it's silver lining, and i, i think i can say with some confidence that the last factor that we're considering is pouring over the revenues and wondering how much is coming in, that, that really hasn't much come into it. has that been something that's been on the government's mind, the backhanded benefit of higher prices? i don't think so. it's obviously in the treasury's mind and that there will be a factor that is taken into consideration when they do their, er arithmetic er, er about the economy and in the run up to the budget if we can look that far ahead. but it certainly hasn't determined policy in any way, because what we've said is that provided we're satisfied that there isn't profiteering going on by the oil companies, and our office of fair trading have told us that there isn't, then it is right that, that we should pay the right price for our petrol, and that is what it costs at any one time. and if for the time being, that's a high price, then that is one of the things that we've got to accept as part of what's going on in the gulf, however painful that may be. you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty-one minutes past six.. it's twenty-two minutes past six. neil kinnock has been giving a major speech to the labour party conference in blackpool this afternoon. peter russell has been there: neil kinnock has received a rousing reception to his keynote speech to delegates at blackpool. the labour leader knows and the rest of the party knows that there could be an election next year, in which case when labour meets for it's conference in autumn ninety-one, mr kinnock could be addressing them, not as leader of the opposition, but as prime minister. in a wide-ranging speech that lasted just under an hour, mr kinnock focused on the economy, training and education, the national health service and the gulf crisis. it was as much a speech to slam eleven years of conservative government as to promote himself as a statesman, capable of assuming the role of prime minister. the labour leader lambasted the tory record on the economy; inflation up, interest rates up, a seventeen billion pound budget deficit and now, recession. and all mrs thatcher could say in the face of that mocked mr kinnock, was that tax cuts looked unlikely next year. i don't think that income taxes should be cut next year. i think,i think, that i think that the children and the pensioners and the sick people of britain come a long way before income tax cuts next year, or for many years to come. so with a ten point six percent inflation rate, what should the government do? first they should cut the very high interest rates and so reduce industrial and housing costs. that's what we would do, that's what we will do, if interest rates are at their current level. second and simultaneously, in order not to release a consumer credit squeeze that would second imports, they should introduce controls on the supply of credit; restraint in what the banking system is allowed to borrow. several other mixed economies do it successfully, that's what we would do, that's what we will do. and third argued mr kinnock, they should negotiate entry into the european exchange rate mechanism, and to stop britain's economic slide in the long run, he told delegates, money had to be invested in training. there'd been a decade of de-skilling said mr kinnock, but labour would set in motion a national training strategy. the party would also invest in education; that was he said, the most fundamental requirement of britain's future success. ; fjm you're listening to the fox report. oxford east's m p, andrew smith says ‘neil kinnock's speech shows labour's commitment to governing the country after the next general election’. speaking from blackpool, mr smith says the party has a policy package that'll lead the country out of the disastrous situation that the present government has put it in. i thought it was a great speech, it was a prime ministerial speech from the next prime minister of our country. i think he set out quite clearly labour's fitness to govern and our programme for government. i was particularly pleased at the emphasis on investment in education and training, in science research and development and the commitments he gave on transport and health and community care. i think he set out in plain language the priorities which britain needs to address and which the present government is failing us on. how was he received by delegates? ecstatically, with enthusiasm and with people picking up the steely determination, that we've all got to work with every energy to make sure that we win the general election, as simple as that. everybody's aware that this may well be the last gen, the last party conference before the general election, and what is more, of, an impression of the terrific progress that the labour party's made in recent years, and further gains over the last year in terms of public support, so that we really are on the threshold of a general election campaign which we realistically hope to win, and we've got the policies in place to meet the needs of the nation for the nineties. so it's an atmosphere of excitement and determination. you're listening to the fox report. plans to ease the student housing crisis which is being faced by many students in oxford, are being discussed by the residents of headington this evening. the polytechnic plans to build a hostel on the morrell-pollock site in north oxford, and tonight, local residents will have the chance to talk about their proposal at a public meeting. abby donald reports; the extent of the problems faced by students at the poly was highlighted last week when it was revealed that some students were living in cars, and others had to turn down places because of the lack of affordable housing. the new student hostel will go some way towards easing the problem, providing an extra two hundred and eighty places. students in oxford have a particularly difficult time finding housing within their price range because although the cost of rented accommodation is similar to london, students in the region don't get extra grant to cover it. deputy director at the poly, brian summers: the problem for the students to some extent, is being compounded by the withdrawal of housing benefit, which means that they're paying the full cost of rents in the private sector, whereas before they might have been getting ten, twelve even, more pounds a week refunded to them through the housing benefit scheme. so they are facing much higher costs and we're aiming to provide more accommodation at an affordable level for the students, and to take some of the pressure off the housing market in the city. chairperson at tonight's meeting, councillor maureen christian, says although they understand the needs of students, they can't ignore the views of local residents. we're negotiating with the polytechnic to give them permission to build a hostel on the john boscoe playing field. so we are sympathetic towards this er provision of student accommodation, but we also cannot ride roughshod over the concerns of the local community. the polytechnic says they're fully aware of local objections and have revised the plans to account for them. mr summers says good relations with the community are very important. i think we've put a tremendous er amount of effort into trying to be a good neighbour; we rely on the local community very heavily for it's support if we're going to exist and flourish in oxford at all. and i think the fact that we completely changed our original proposal to meet local objections, does demonstrate the degree of concern that we have. the meeting will take place at st michael's first school in marston road and half past seven this evening. this is the fox report, it's twenty-nine minutes past six.. on the m four westbound at the junction slough, junction six which is slough, traffic's very heavy and slow. very heavy going also on the m twenty-five, clockwise between junctions fifteen and sixteen, the m four and the m forty. there'll be overnight work taking place in that area, both ways between junctions fourteen and fifteen, heathrow and the m four, that's between nine pm tonight and six am tomorrow morning; there'll be outside lane closures for lighting repairs. roadworks continue on the m forty too between junctions four and five, high wycombe and stokenchurch, two narrow lanes will be operating in both directions with a contraflow for a short section about midway between the two junctions. and finally on the a forty-six london road on moreton-in-marsh there are gasworks with restrictions which will also affect the high street. natalie proud, a a roadwatch. and i've not too many problems to report to you this evening either from british rail who tell us that there's a twenty three minute delay on the manchester to paddington service which was due in at oxford at six twenty-four, can't quite do the sums there, but it isn't quite due in yet. you're listening to the fox report, it's six thirty-one. neil kinnock has won a standing ovation from the labour party faithful at their conference in blackpool, by presenting himself as the next prime minister. he told members to get ready for an election which could happen at any time. the french navy stopped a north korean vessel in the red sea near yemen, believing it's cargo was intended for iraq. the allied warship fired off warning shots across the korean ship's bows to make it stop, but it was cleared to continue it's voyage. and a pilot has desperately tried to fight off highjackers seconds before his aircraft smashed into two other jets on the ground at china's canton airport. one hundred and twenty people are thought to be dead and more than fifty are injured in what's thought to be china's worst air disaster. and sheffield crown court has heard how a man allegedly kidnapped and raped his wife; the man who can't be named for legal reasons, was separated from her at the time of the supposed attack, and the case is making legal history. the weather for the fox f m area: the evening will start dry and cloudy but outbreaks of rain will reach the area later on. the rain is going to continue overnight with heavy rain in places and mists developing over the cotswolds and the chilterns. it's going to be mild though with fresh south-westerly winds preventing the temperatures falling below eleven degrees celsius, that's fifty-two degrees fahrenheit.. still to come: britain's rare birds have their best breeding season for years, plus a look at the day's financial and sports news. first though, it's national asthma week this week, which er this year is taking as it's theme, a lifeline for new asthmatics. dr barbara hunt from the university of oxford has a grant from the national asthma campaign to research the links between dust mites and allergic asthma. barbara it's, i'd always assumed that people were probable born with asthma, but that's not, not the case? no, er it depends which type of asthma we, we're talking about. there is allergic asthma, there's also exercise-induced asthma and stress-induced asthma, for example, er as far as allergic asthma is concerned, we think that people have to be exposed to the allergens er early in their life, in order to become sensitized, and once sensitized, they will respond to these allergens and er have asthma attacks. now, now your explan, expertise is with the link between dust mites and, and asthma? yes. is it a big problem, how many people er or is that er, do you know roughly how many people would suffer from it? well, there are three million people in the u k who suffer from asthma, and about forty percent of that number, er i, i can't do the fi, can't the figures either, er are allergic to dust mites. and so, yes it is a big problem and it seems to be increasing, er the number of sufferers has doubled in the past ten years and we, we don't really know why yet. no theories on that? er well, one of the theories is that, with modern housing and wall to wall carpeting, central heating and better insulation, er the mites that live in our houses can thrive er better in these luxurious conditions, and with increased numbers of, of mites, we are seeing increased asthma attacks. could some people have asthma and not know it? er no i don't think so, i think er it would be pretty obvious, but the severity of the disease does vary widely. now i, i mentioned that, that it is asthma week, this week, all sorts of things are happening. yes. what, what's going on in this area? er in this area there are sponsored swims, er there are sponsored swims throughout the country, and they're hoping to, to swim a total of four thousand and something miles, the distance around the british isles, and hoping to raise fifty thousand pounds for asthma research. er there are various other sponsored events and one of the er most important er events is this er helpline for newly diagnosed asthmatics which er should be very helpful. now that, that actually was launched yesterday, is this now yes. going just last the week or will it be a permanent no, it should be a permanent link, and er the calls will be er supported by the national asthma campaign and, as i said, it's particularly er useful to newly diagnosed asthmatics in helping them to understand what's happening to them and obtain advice, er. is there trained medical help on yes, there are trained nurses on the other end of the line, yes. when can people ring that num, that line? er the line is open from one pm to nine pm, er monday to friday. so it's, it's a fairly, it's not something that's twenty four hours if you, if you suddenly get frightened? no that's right, yes. but it, it does provide background to it? well that's right, it's, it's more than we've had before and if it's a success, perhaps we'll manage to have a twenty-four hour line. barbara thank you, and the number of that line is o three four five o one o two o three, that's o three four five o one o two o three and it's, and it's only charged at local prices i understand. er as i understand it the cost will be offset by the national asthma campaign. so wherever you are in the country, it's charged at local prices. yes. barbara thank you very much indeed. right. now, some of britain's rarest birds have had their best breeding season on record this summer. according to figures published by the royal society for the protection of birds, the long hot spell over the summer meant that more birds of prey came to our shores than at any time since the eighteen nineties. but it's not been all good news, as chris harbod of the r s p b has been explaining. our rarer breeding birds in the united kingdom have had a somewhat mixed year this summer, mainly due to the weather we've had which has been very hot down south, but quite er wet and windy up north. in scotland, the ospreys have bred pretty well, we've had sixty-two pairs come up and attempt breeding this year, and they've managed to raise eighty-seven young, which is more than er the highest number this century. the figure i think might have been higher if we hadn't had some hot weather which er meant the fish were keeping rather low in the lochs, and it was difficult for the ospreys to find sufficient food. and in fact our famous nest at loch garton, the young there actually er, both unfortunately died; one killed by a fox, and the other was too weak really from lack of food to survive properly. so that highlights the problems they've had, but they were nevertheless successful. i understand er good weather in wales has meant red kites have done well as well? yes that's right, red kites have done marvellously. er. they've had their best breeding season this century; sixty three pairs have raised a total of seventy young, and this is despite the fact that egg collectors robbed at least eight nests of eggs. unfortunately this is a problem which faces both kites er and ospreys and, and some other birds of prey, so er we always look for a few losses, but we hope that nevertheless, in a good season like this, the birds will breed well enough to produce good numbers of young. now how do you actually come to calculate the figures? well with our rarest birds, and certainly ospreys and red kites are extremely rare with fifty to sixty pairs of each, we keep a close eye on them, some of the more vulnerable nests are actually watched twenty-four hours of the day, others are monitored regularly to make sure they're progressing well. and so we're able to, to, once we've found which birds er have arrived, picked a nest and er have laid eggs, we put a careful watch on them and then we're able to tot up at the end of the breeding season, how many young have actually fledged. you're listening to the fox report, i'm jane markham. still to come a look at the day's sport, and there's a new signing for oxford united. first, financial report with halpern and woolf, keeping oxfordshire in business. markets have been buoyant following a thirteen percent gain on the niki index, it's the largest ever one day gain, though this merely reversed last week's dramatic falls. the london exchange opened the day with the footsie one hundred making early gains, at one stage up forty-four points; however, it slipped back to end the day up twenty seven point seven at two oh five eight point five. the city has been in optimistic mood with a large volume of shares changing hands; wall street also opened strongly, which in turn, encouraged the u k market. on the foreign exchanges, the deutschmark seemed steady ahead of tonight's reunification; the pound fell against both the dollar and the mark, ending the day at one point eight eight four five dollars and two deutschmarks point nine three four one. today's share prices: abbey national were up four at two o one, british aerospace down four at five five nine, british airways up four point four at four point three two five. british gas up four at two one four point five, british telecom were down four at two hundred and sixty four, goodhead publishing group unchanged at fifty-eight, metal box up one thousand two hundred, morland brewers unchanged at two hundred and seventy five and oxford instruments er ended the day at two three four, having er not changed their position. thames water were up three at two two two, trustee savings bank up two point five at two twot two and today's major stock market mover, apart from metal box; i c i up twenty-six to eight five six. you're listening to the fox report. britain's bosses gave themselves pay rises of more than two percent above the national average last year. attention has turned away from the national work force to their managers, as mrs thatcher's told british businessmen; they're earning too much. rebecca marston has been talking to ken schwarz, director of development at the company who've published the figures on executives pay. she asked him whether britain's managers really are paying themselves too much. when we are talking about directors of businesses, er particularly the larger companies, good people are hard to find and some of them are superstars, and er i know we've heard a lot about er exceedingly high levels of pay and very high pay increases, er but when you talk about the superstars and megastars, what about the entertainment business, what about sport, what about, you know, golfing celebrities, earning in excess of a million, or racing drivers? britain's bosses are getting twelve point three percent more in total remuneration than they were last year, their workforce is getting nine point eight percent. don't you think that britain's bosses should be setting an example, and paying themselves similar increases to that that they pay their workforce? of course, britain's bosses have to be setting an example and obviously leadership has to emanate from the top, and is very often done by example. but having said that, er you are quoting a national statistic at me, er there are a number of workforces that have had increases substantially higher than the one you've just mentioned, to whit some, the car workers and the settlements recently there. er. the, it is a competitive marketplace; er we're not alone in the u k, if you look at the rest of europe, you'll find er inflation lower yes, but salary increases for the senior jobs and the top jobs there, are also higher than they are lower down, so this widening of differentials isn't just something that is, is the british disease, it occurs in other european countries as well. you're listening to the fox report. after a disappointing start to their league season, oxford united's manager, brian horton has splashed out on a one million pound signing from liverpool reserves, that's midfielder, jim magilton. he was also an internat, had international squad experience with northern ireland. at the official press conference today, brian horton said he'd been looking at the young twenty-one year old for quite a while. i've seen him play over the years er mick, you know he's er typical of player, we've had him watched a few times this year, er scouts him er at aston villa, said he had a magnificent game. i saw him play last week against sunderland reserves, he had another magnificent game, his passing was absolutely immaculate — got a good goal, hit a great volley that for another goal; he can just pass the ball, and i think that's what we've lacked a little bit of, er a bit of guard sometimes for our midfield. steve mclaren came back in, back back in i think did a good job, mickey lewis tackles and, and everything there, les is a good pass the ball so, the three of them in there, er tomorrow night, should be able to pass the ball around. so hopefully he's going to burst west ham's pretty bubbles? hopefully, er i thought we, we played very very well at port vale last week and passed it around with three men in the middle of the park. i started off with the three men in the middle of the park saturday, we changed it round because i think we needed an extra striker at the wolves, and i didn't think we played that badly. there's no reason why we can't go to west ham and get a good result mick, that, you know, they're, they're nothing special. well mick it's a bit of a surprise, this signing wasn't it, did it take you off, off guard? well, brian horton's comments just there did. west ham, nothing special, he's started early. he was also very rude about my new hairstyle i'll have you know jane, but this guy it's great radio mickey! but this guy is the one brian wanted. he's got two industrious midfielders, mickey lewis and les phillips, steve mclaren, he plays these lovely beautiful long balls, glen hoddle style, but he's a bit injury prone, but still a good player; but this guy, he's got a lot of promise, and we've just got to wait and see — a baptism of fire at west ham tomorrow. yes it's going to be a big match that, tom, you're going down there i understand? oh yes, i love it, i mean, as a boy i used to support west ham but i am now firmly behind oxford united, and i want them to beat west ham, because as a boy they always lost for me, west ham. erm what do you reckon the chances are tomorrow night though, in spite of, of magilton being, being with them? well last season, i did write oxford off. west ham were at the top, oxford were at the bottom, it's the same this season, but last season, oxford went there and they gave west ham a very good game. they lost three two when really they should have won; they missed the chances, but every goal was a cracker. there's always entertainment at upton park. so, what about one of your famous predictions? i'll go for west ham united two, oxford united three. wow, plenty of goals there i've not been right this season. no that's very true. jim magilton is the second liverpool reserves player to join the u's, after the signing of john durning three years ago, and he says it was brian horton's enthusiasm that had tice that enticed him away from the merseyside side. definitely yes, i would say like, i've spoke to brian horton on sunday and he more or less said that it's er oxford united in fourth position in the league, and let's hope so like you know. they are like, and i've come here to maybe to help get them in a, a better position, because i believe that, only through him, what he's told me about the club; that it's a nice club, a nice base for me to start off my career, because that's what i'm really am doing. i'm twenty-one, i've got three years here, i'm going to give it everything. now the club are looking for a player of your capabilities. you're making your debut against west ham united, one of the big arenas in the second division — what a debut. yes it is, it's, it, it will be a bit frightening but like, i've, i've waited this long you know, so er anything they're throwing up at me won't, won't be won't daunt me in any way because i've been, like i went to a charity shield this season with liverpool and they were playing manchester united, there were sixty thousand there, and er i'd have done anything just to get on there. now you also knew john durning up in liverpool, you didn't pick up any bad habits did you? i hope not , er mostly they will have told me to stay away from the lad like — he's harmless, you know what i mean? you just have to feel sorry for him. well there you go. now is anything else happening in the sporting world tonight mickey? it's tuesday, so no, no doubt you've got a few local games on the cards? that's right, and i've got a bone to pick with one club. thame united, they're at home to milton keynes borough in the south midlands premier league. now i found this out because i was in a pub last night and someone told me. for goodness sake thame united, please send me a fixture list, i ask you every week, there's a chap on the phone — oh yes mr inotta, we'll send you one, thank you for the excellent coverage, fox f m sport is quite superb, but nothing. please i will never go to windmill road unless you send me a fixture list. meanwhile, aylesbury united, they're at home to harlow town in the ac delco cup, first round replay, now they're a nice club, they even let me know if one of their supporters is ill jane. : fjm i have got no answer to that. you're listening to the fox report. gendarmes from the french police force have come to oxford this week to promote road safety amongst school children. many children have been injured in increasing numbers over the last year, and it was the idea of one school teacher in oxford to bring a group of gendarmes over to england to teach children how the french behave on the roads. paul kirby reports: the fact that gendarmes have been introduced to an oxford school is a measure of how seriously schools in oxfordshire are taking european road safety week. gendarmes have been teaching french schoolchildren for twenty years, and claim by teaching kids, they teach their parents as well. mayeur vaccin who's one of the gendarmes from lilles says by careering around in go karts on miniature road systems, the children appreciate the other side of the story. i've no er statistics, but in, i think it's er very positive. when we er teach pupils, in the same time, we teach their parents, because er pupils give the lesson er when they come back home to their parents. joe johnson is the man responsible for bringing the gendarmes to oxford sandhills school. he's offering other head teachers to get in touch to benefit from what he says is a very important project. well, i think if you see a good idea, you want to share it, and i think anything that we can do that will cut down on the terrible casualties and the deaths on our roads of, particularly of children, we must do it. i mean there's carnage on these roads of ours, and people are just not doing anything about it or taking it seriously enough. there are more kil, children killed on our roads than die of disease, than die of malnutrition in this country, er many, you know and we just don't take it seriously. a, a plane crashes, and we all jump er but, but nine thousand kids are injured every year on our roads and we, we just think ‘oh yes, that's normal, that's, that's allowed,’ because it's a motor car. and i don't think, i think we've reached the point now where we've got to really take stock in our society and change things. the gendarmes will be at sandhills school for the rest of the week, and anyone interested in teaching their school about road safety is urged to take part. you're listening to the fox report. new drivers taking their l tests from next year will face a fresh challenge as part of their examination, and it's been announced by the roads minister, christopher chope today. he was speaking at the new driving standards agency in nottingham. the minister revealed that from next april all learner drivers must be able to reverse into a parking place double the length of their own vehicle. caroline atkinson reports: driving standards agency which oversees the running of all ordinary and h g v tests taken in britain, move to nottingham from london. today roads and traffic minister, christopher chope opened the building and announced a major change to the driving test. mr chope says ‘learner drivers will now have to reverse park into a gap double the length of their own vehicle.’ most people er recognise that er being able to park in a space in a busy street is an important part of driving, and the surprise is really that it's never been part of the test before. is it a major safety aspect do you think? oh it's obvious that safety's involved, i think that er it's also er road use because er if people take a long time er going forwards and back trying to get into a space to park because they don't have the basic skills to enable them to do it, then it's frustrating for other motorists, and obviously accidents can be caused. and keith cameron who's the chief driving examiner of the d s a, welcomed the decision. delighted, obviously we er think that this is a very good thing from a safety point of view. we realise that there are many problems caused by people who aren't able to park er in a restricted area er and we need to ensure that people are able to do that satisfactorily and safely. meanwhile the minister said there were no plans to introduce motorway driving as part of the l test. this is the fox report, it's eight minutes to seven. the m twenty-five remains very slow moving clockwise between junctions fifteen and sixteen, the m four and the m forty, as does the m four westbound at junction six, the slough exit, that's due to the rush hour traffic this evening. the a forty-one though, at the banbury spur is still down to a single lane between the junction with the a forty-six longbridge island and the a four five two, grey's mallory island, that's for m forty construction work. and on the m forty between junctions seven thame and the a forty interchange, there's a contraflow in operation, which means there's only two lanes available in each direction. and finally, ruthcote avenue in banbury is closed southbound at the junction with orchard way for paving work. natalie proud, a a roadwatch. british rail tell us that this evening's banbury to london paddington train which was due to leave banbury at three minutes past seven has been cancelled, otherwise i've no problems to report on the local trains or buses.. the millstream touring theatre company is bringing south african playwright athel fougards ‘road to mecca’ to the theatre in chipping norton on thursday night. it's set in an afrikaaner village and is the true story of a widow who is inspired to sculpt hundreds of animals and people following the death of her husband. it was first performed by the royal national theatre in nineteen eighty-five. joanna wake plays miss helen. ware house is a museum now, you can go the house there now and see this extraordinary yard of wise men and owls and mermaids and peacocks. and in, in her house, she used to light about two hundred candles a night, and she ground down glass and put glitter on all the walls and the furniture and she played with light from these candles. and of course, candles light being a symbol for whatever you like to take it as. she sounds quite an eccentric. she was extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary, and of course, mis, very misunderstood. she was an afrikaaner herself? she was an afrikaaner yes. is it difficult for an english act, actress to play an afrikaaner? yes it is difficult, i mean, one has to, er we've had a dialect coach and i'm working very hard on the accent. er. we're not doing it too strongly because of course it is quite difficult to, for an english ear perhaps to get attuned to it if one was doing it very very strong, so i'm trying to do one that isn't er too alien to an english ear. it's also quite difficult to, i would think, to put across a character who isn't a baddie, because we're so used to hearing afrikaaner as being a bad language as it were. oh, oh absolutely, but of course, i mean, afrikaaners are just people and er they have bad afrikaaners and good afrikaaners just like anywhere and anyone, you know, anyone else. and she was erm a most lovely person, extraordinary and er kind and gentle, but she had a tenacity. she had a tenacity about the vision about her personal purpose in life. you're listening to the fox report. a tantalising mixture of talent is due to appear at the town hall in oxford on friday. rogues and vagabonds has been devised and'll be compered by michael meyer, and stars edward fox, dorothy tutin and freddie jones, and it's all for a good cause. jean mcconnell is from the libra theatre company who will benefit from this gala. jean this is a wonderful array of people, how have you enticed them to the town hall? well, we were helped initially by a professional fund raiser who was concerned of our lack of money and our lack of funding by er the arts bodies, and gave me this er contact really in the form of michael meyer to er arrange and er bring about these three artists. and he is really responsible for bringing the three, because they deemed us a worthy cause when they saw er the work that we were doing, to perform free for us that evening in order to boost our funds. tell me a little bit about er libra. libra theatre company? well, it's been going in oxford now for three years and it's for people with disability and able bodied people, and with the current production we have which is being produced by paul newham, the people there have er suffered with m s and are visually impaired and er you know, various disabilities like that, plus able bodied people. but we welcome everybody really, from the age of fifteen or sixteen to seventy, and we turn nobody away and we're a very warm welcoming group. so the gala on friday is all to, to fund the productions really? that's right, yes. tell me a little bit, bit more about rogues and vagabonds, it, it, it's billed, well, what's it billed as? well, it's a programme of entertainment which is devised by michael meyer who is the famous translator of strinberg and ibsen. and the sketches and the readings take, er take us all through literature from the eighteenth century to present day, and they, they're just readings and sketches from that, which i don't, i haven't actually seen it and i don't know what it's going to be, but i've every confidence that whatever edward fox, dorothy tutin and freddie jones do, it will be quite superb in these events it's a wonderful mixture yes it's a series of i'm just trying to visualise it it's about thirty different events with an interval in between with wine and so on and a super venue for them at the town hall yes, yes it is, it's, it's in assembly rooms which is slightly more gracious than the rather large er main building, and the mayor has very kindly er given the room, given us permission to use the room free of charge, and she will also be there at the performance as she is er, seems very interested in our work to date. so it should be quite an intimate performance, will people come along i think it will. and have the chance to, to; fjmc i think it will to meet the cast yes, the three artists will mingle with the guests at the buffet supper which we hope will be by candlelight, and the whole evening will be rather intimate and rather special to people who do come. so how can people get hold of tickets, and how much do they cost etcetera, etcetera? well, tickets in oxford are selling on seven two seven eight five five, and it is thirty pounds, but it includes wine on er arrival, wine in the interval and wine with the supper, and there will be a fun auction at some point afterwards er and the entertainment, the two hour entertainment. sounds wonderful. and it, it does sound, i, i must say we've, we've having flowers everywhere and i think the whole evening's going to be very nice and we're looking forward to everybody enjoying themselves and having a good time. jean thank you very much. thank you. and that was the fox report for tuesday the second of october nineteen ninety. join us for another fox report tomorrow night, william ronk will be here at six o'clock, but stay with us, the red fox is after the news at seven o'clock. tonight: a high court judge is to head an enquiry into the strangeways prison riot while former convict john mcvicar says the army should have stormed the jail at the start. the director of the british roads federation supports the government's new toll road scheme: our roads are in a mess and anything that will speed up improving that situation i think is to be welcomed. also on the programme: percy the penguin, the sole survivor of a mystery illness at the cotswold wildlife park at burford, is fighting for its life. it needs a boost to the kidneys and the liver. it looks okay but we don't know what long term is going to happen to the bird. the six o'clock news, this is katherine kelly. prison officers at strangeways are threatening to break off negotiations with those inmates still holding out in the jail, but they're denying the ultimatum means they'll use force to end the five day siege. from the scene, simon israel: the governor, brendan o'freal will only say that less than forty are still inside including four escape risk prisoners. he's been in constant contact with the home secretary as negotiations have become increasingly difficult but he welcomes the announcement of a judicial inquiry. the prison service is in this business of when things go wrong we have a full enquiry to learn the lessons. meanwhile, a self-declared ring-leader, paul taylor, shouting from the roof tops, has claimed that it was all just a sit-in protest that got out of control. simon israel, i r n, at strangeways prison in manchester. president bush and mikhail gorbachev have agreed to hold a summit in america at the end of may. the white house has announced that the soviet leader will visit the united states from the thirtieth may until june third. from washington, nick peters. the exact location of the four day meeting has not been announced although most of the talks are expected to take place here in washington. u s secretary of state james baker is not ruling out however that soviet behaviour in lithuania could derail the summit. well i would hope it wouldn't. we'll have to see what develops. he and soviet foreign minister eduard shevardnadze are holding talks here to finalize details of the summit, and to add impetus to arms control agreements the two leaders will be negotiating. nick peters, i r n, washington. a top level police report on security leaks in ulster is calling for tighter controls on the handling of intelligence documents. it's one of the main recommendations of the enquiry headed by cambridgeshire deputy chief constable john stevens. his team has spent six months investigating the alleged leaks of security files to loyalist terror groups. the report has been handed over to the r u c constable hugh annersley. i will now study that report, and as soon as possible mr stevens and i will make statements. in the meantime i would ask people to avoid unsubstantiated speculation and unhelpful comment which is so singularly unproductive in these circumstances. a london born terrorist has today been jailed for six months in amsterdam on arms offences. twenty-seven year old patrick anthony kerr is a member of the irish people's liberation organisation. the twenty councils ordered to cut their poll tax levels are taking more legal advice before they decide whether to challenge the government in court. leaders of the councils, none of them tory controlled, have been meeting in london today to plan a campaign. they were joined by shadow environment secretary brian gould who says they're determined to fight. common cause has been established between all the charge-capped authorities, they all believe that they've been unfairly treated, and they've all agreed to pursue a common search for remedies to the plight in which they find themselves. there is clearly the possibility of er an application for judicial review on the ground that the secretary of state has produced essentially a politically biased list and has therefore acted unlawfully. the official soviet newsagency tass says lithuania is ready to compromise with the kremlin and hold a referendum on breaking away. the rebel republic has already declared itself independent from the soviet union and president gorbachev threatened grave consequences if its parliament doesn't renounce the decision. the grand national meeting at aintree has got off to a tragic start with two horses dying in the first race. it happened on the hurdling course which is safer than the steeplechase route where the national will be run on saturday. new safety measures have been introduced for national fences after two horses died at the notorious beecher's brook in last year's race. cricket, and the afternoon session in the fourth test match between england and the west indies has just got under way in barbados. the west indies are eighty-five for two wickets. it's thursday fifth april nineteen ninety. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. the home secretary david waddington has announced that an inquiry into the strangeways prison riot is being set up. lord justice woolf will look into the events leading up to the violence and the action taken to end it. mr waddington says the inquiry will be separate from the criminal investigation. at least twelve prisoners are still thought to be inside the jail and refusing to give themselves up. the home secretary has been talking to peter murphy about the siege and the efforts to end it. well obviously we want the incident to be brought to an end and until it's brought to and end you always have that fear that there might have been another tragedy. but i was able to tell the house this morning that all the rule forty-three prisoners, who were the ones who were particularly vulnerable, are now accounted for, and i mean by that that they have all come out of the jail in the last few days and unfortunately one of them, as you know, has died from his injuries. but the rest of them are safe? yes. what about the persistent reports, sir, that there have been deaths in the prison? you must still be taking that very seriously? i just think it's unfortunate that all these rumours have circulated. i suppose it's inevitable at a time like this, but now that the inquiry has been set up my firm advice to everybody is er stop propagating rumours and er give any information which you think is relevant to the inquiry. is the policy still to sit it out and wait rather than try and force your way into the prison? operational matters are for the governor, but i think it is important to bear in mind that although we know that violence was used in the early stages we have no evidence that anyone now still in the prison is in danger and you've got to ask yourself in those circumstances whether you should risk injury or even death in storming the prison when as far as we know nobody remaining inside is now in danger. there have been persistent reports of understaffing at strangeways, is that one of the issues that will be looked into by this inquiry? well i er don't agree that there has been er understaffing and in the statement which i made to the house today i was able to point out what a very big increase in er the total complement of the prison officers has taken place during recent years, but it's up to lord justice woolf to look in to whatever evidence is put before him, it's for him to look at the terms of reference and he will no doubt decide what is relevant and what is not. you're listening to the fox report. former convict john mcvicar whose own prison career was turned into a film says the home secretary must share the blame for the murder of any inmates in strangeways. the authorities are maintaining their softly-softly approach in their bid to bring a peaceful end to the siege. it's not yet known if any inmates have been killed apart from the remand prisoner derek white who died yesterday in hospital. mcvicar who was involved in riots and rooftop protests at durham and chelmsford jails says the army should have stormed the prison to save sex offenders being picked on by rioters. some of them have not been found guilty, and albeit they have been charged with horrendous crimes they are still innocent people and it doesn't matter even if they are not innocent people, the government still has a responsibility to life and limb and really i can't see any case at all for not storming. waddington really stands indicted for this. what would be the motive for continuing the siege any longer? if they have committed the crimes they will face the sentences presumably, what's the point in sticking it out for another two, three, four days? once you get up on the roof then it's euphoria, there's anarchy reigning, you're in the public eye, the sun's shining, er and everyone's quite happy for a day or so, but of course you get cold and a bit hungry, and er then the sort of import of what you face starts to come through. er. now what will be concerning the last hard core will be that amongst them can almost certainly the people who were involved in the original planning of the er uprising or riot, and also who probably er orchestrated the kangaroo courts. what will be on their mind is first of all the prison authorities are going to isolate them, they're going to be in solitary confinement for a very long time — six months, maybe a year, that's been the pattern — they're going to lose a lot of remission, but they also know they're going to face criminal charges. now they also, in the wake of this knowledge is the er awareness that they're going to be interrogated on this, and they're also sitting up there thinking ‘what are we going to say?’ and indeed that's another reason for bringing this whole incident to an end, because in a sense they are cooking up alibis and covering their backs. you're listening to the fox report. the white house has announced that president bush and mikhail gorbachev are to hold a superpower summit in america at the end of may. the dates were revealed in simultaneous statements in washington and moscow. they didn't say where it would be held though it's thought the soviet leader will visit washington from the thirtieth may until june third. our washington correspondent nick peters has been telling richard dalling about the likely issues up for discussion. the land-based multi-warhead er missiles is a real issue that has to be tackled, er and they may either go for, this is very much up in the air, go for er distinct cuts in er start one, or they may talk about limitations and then go for a start two treaty. er. as you know arms control negotiations are incredibly detailed and rather arcane subjects, er so it's a little tricky to see the wood for the trees in this one, but er arms control, obviously c f e — the conventional forces in europe — er is very much an issue that will be on the table. again it's doubtful they'll be ready to sign anything on that er i think also the shadow of lithuania is very much over this and mr bush is obviously not wishing to er box himself into a corner at this stage while the lithuania crisis is still open. what about german unification? now mr gorbachev wants germany to be neutral, mr bush obviously doesn't. do you think they're going to have a problem on that one? no, i think the soviets are pretty well reconciled to the bush point of view that a unified nato, a unified germany, i beg your pardon, would stay in nato. er. i think that er mr gorbachev has er seen that mr bush has only a few firmly held points of view, i mean that's one of the criticisms of george bush that he does seem to have only a few firmly held points of view on emerging democracies in eastern and central europe, but having said that, er i think he really does believe that a unified germany in nato is a key part of stability in that region, and i think that mr gorbachev recognises that on this one mr bush is not er capable of being moved. still to come: farmers are up in arms over the poll tax on empty farm cottages, and forty thousand pounds from the n h s lottery comes to oxford. with a look at the day's local news here's robin powell. the oxford university student's union has expressed its disappointment at the government's action on the student loans bill in the commons last night. the amendments to the bill from the house of lords were debated in only three hours as the government guillotined the motion, and the speaker of the house also ruled that a lord's amendment saying students should be entitled to housing benefit was invalid. paul bromfield from the student's union says the government was wrong to limit discussion of the issue. i don't think it should have been guillotined. i think the main reason it was guillotined is that there is a lot of unhappiness among conservative mps and among many people in the conservative party about the government's proposals. the government realizes this and that is why it has cut debate off. i think if debate had been continued then many backbench tory mps would have expressed their reservations and their concerns about the government's proposals. firemen were called to a fire on the m forty earlier today. the fire started in a transit van travelling east-bound and then spread to the fuel tank. firemen used three pumps to bring the blaze under control but no-one was injured. meanwhile, gas board officials say they're still baffled about the cause of a mains explosion on the a four one eight thame to oxford road yesterday. flames leaping to thirty feet in the air were reported just off the road at wheatley causing a stretch of the road to be closed all day. almost one hundred houses in tiddington were also left without gas. a spokesman for the gas board says the cause of the explosion will probably never be known. a vicar in a south oxfordshire village is hoping locals will rally round to save a church tower. seventy-eight thousand pounds is needed to save st. michael's, a twelfth century building in blewbury near didcot. the money raised by the appeal will restore the tower to its original state. father edwin clements from st. michael's says a great community spirit has developed. people have been very generous in the parish and the village, obviously they think a lot of their church, but one suggestion that was put forward was if every man, woman and child gave the equivalent of twelve pounds to the fund then it would be raised easily, and i think that it's quite likely that people will come forward er in a generous way i'm sure. and finally, a survey out today is claiming that shoppers in two of the major shopping centres in the fox f m area are less interested in fashion but more likely to spend, spend, spend on furniture and food. william ronken reports. the survey was carried out in over one hundred towns and cities by a property firm, and included samples showing the shopping habits of people in oxford and aylesbury with some interesting results. although london's oxford street topped the list when it came to spending on fashion and footwear, aylesbury beat both oxford and the west end as far as spending on food, furniture, electrical goods and d i y items was concerned. the survey also confirmed that even during the current economic climate with high interest rates, the south east remains top of the spending league. a spokesman for the property firm suggested the results were proof that when it comes to spending aylesbury's definitely top of the shops. it's sixteen minutes past six. farmers are raising their voices against the poll tax. in england and wales they'll have to pay up to double the poll tax on any empty farm cottages they own, although farmers in scotland are going to be exempt from this. tom bewley is a local representative of the national farmer's union. tom, explain precisely what er what the situation is. well, it's not as bad in oxfordshire as it is in some other parts of the country because there are a lot of urban areas around here, a lot of people who want digs and accommdation, so many farmers who are on a main route, on a bus route, whatever, can in fact let their properties. but in the more rural parts of the county there are definitely problems. i've discovered one case er two cases in fact near bicester. er. one farmer has just received a bill for seven hundred pounds. he has a cottage which is in not good enough condition to let, he can't afford to do it up, and it doesn't quite qualify as decrepit. so he's stuck. and there's another farmer in the same area who keeps a caravan for seasonal workers. that counts as a second home. seven hundred pounds on his bill. now this sounds as though it'll actually make quite a difference to perhaps a small farmer. it's a lot of money to find. well yes indeed. and they're the sort of people who are anyway having great difficulty finding er the extra to support their er own workers with their initial poll tax payments anyway. now, the n f u has now written to the agricultural minister. do you think there's going to be any joy from him? well i think at central level they have a letter don't they, because from the reports i've read local authorities exercise discretionary powers on the amount of poll tax to be charged on empty farm dwellings. in fact they have discretionary powers on all empty houses. they can, as you know, charge anything between nought and two hundred percent of the standard rate, and i feel it's something that has to be sorted out locally. i remember reading earlier that oxfordshire was very inconsistent, some districts charged one rate, others charged the maximum two hundred percent. i think we have to exercise pressure locally to make sure our own councils er answer. now, is it something that's taken farmers by surprise, because we're, the poll tax is now upon us as it were, er is it something that they weren't expecting to happen? well i think it's er, you know, farmers are reacting like everybody else to this. we hoped somehow it wouldn't happen. er. we have to face the problems when they actually come upon us. er. many people besides farmers have problems caused by this er tax that, whatever one thinks er about it so far as the system is concerned, really when you look at it more closely it's the details that have been so badly thought out. farmers are just one of many groups who are left with an unfair situation. after all it was introduced, and mrs thatcher has made a great deal of the fact that it is a head tax not a property tax, it's the voters she wants answerable, well i've yet to find an empty house that voted. tom bewley, thank you very much indeed. coca-cola which hopes to build a new plant in banbury says it can't rule out the possibility that it will use a toxic chemical in the canning process at the factory. protesters there say that in extreme circumstances the chemical, butoxi-ethanol, can cause kidney and liver damage as well as birth defects. but coca-cola spokesman peter dobell say the firm won't be putting people's health at risk. we did reassure people last night that there would be no odours and no harmful emissions from the canning plant. the people who are the world's experts in can manufacturing made that absolutely clear. there is now way that as a company we would allow anything to go ahead that would be harmful. er. from the traffic point of view, i have already said that there will be a large number of movements, but everything will be done to minimise any hindrance to people living in the locality. are you then saying that the people last night were overreacting? obviously there are a number of issues which people will treat to a great degree, emotional or less extent, and while in some cases we would sympathize with the views of the people in the residence in the area, er the factory will be bringing employment and other benefits, economic benefits, to the area. er. in the final analysis it really is up to the planning officers and the planning committee to decide whether the benefits which it will bring to the locality outweigh the objectors' views. the picket by the twenty-three journalists sacked from pergammon press ten months ago continues. the national union of journalists has once again discussed the situation at their annual delegate conference. harriet eysner and anna wagstaff have both been on the picket from the start. harriet, what is the situation? what did the n u j say? well, at its annual conference the n u j gave us one hundred percent backing and carried on its support for us. it's given us its full backing, and it's going to call for a day of action in support of us which will include strike action throughout the media industry. right, so that is actually something positive? yes, absolutely. because when you say ‘full backing’ it's all very well to have the n u j saying ‘we're fully behind you’, but you do need to see something positive. that's right, yes. er you've been on the picket line for ten months now, anna, er how is the mood going, 'cos it's a very, very long time? it is a long time. i think for outsiders it looks like nothing has moved at all, but when you're involved in the strike in fact things have been moving quite fast in very many important ways throughout the ten months. so, for instance at this point we've reached a stage where we've got very important solidarity action in our favour including the fact that there are four main education unions, for instance, that are boycotting all maxwell products which is a tremendous thing for an educational publisher to have. er. we've had fantastic support, as has been recorded on this programme many times before, and that is still growing. and now particularly ron todd who's of course the general secretary of the biggest union in this country, is making a real effort to open things up and to try and get negotiations going, and we're very hopeful that we'll get some positive of response from that. now, robert maxwell has not responded in the past, why do you think that now he'll respond to er these new moves? i think that we are confident from indications of the way things are going. it's not something that we can talk about too widely, but we can say that we are very confident, that er we can move towards a sensible and fair resolution of this dispute in we hope the near future. now, after ten months, harriet, do you really want your jobs back now? oh, absolutely. it's a question of recognition for the union and we're quite prepared, and looking forward, to going back there and carrying on the work that we were doing before. and we'd like to see the union fully recognized inside, because, after all, the workers there they need a union representing them in a company like that. now, er when i say do you really want your jobs back, i was just thinking, i was thinking really would the atmosphere be right to go back, would you ever be happy working there again? oh, i think so. i don't see why not at all. and, er, what's the likelihood you'll still be on the picket line a year on? that's a difficult one to say. as we said, we wouldn't be on the picket line now, and indeed the union would not be backing us in what is proving to be a long and fairly expensive dispute, if we didn't believe that we had a very good chance of getting our jobs back and re-establishing the union in pergammon press. exactly when, it's difficult to say. you're talking about about two months from now we'd have our first year anniversary. we are planning to have some very big activities around that date, if indeed we're not back by that time. we very much hope we will be. anna wagstaff, harriet eysner, thank you very much. james ellis who represents oxford and buckinghamshire in the european parliament says a unified germany would be good for europe. he's been speaking at a debate on the issue in strasbourg. some people have expressed concern that the merging of the two germanies could pose a serious threat to the economic and political stability of europe. mr ellis though says it would be more foolish to allow, not to allow reunification. the isolation of germany, by itself, in the middle of europe, has led to two world wars, i think that now we have the opportunity to bind germany in, a united germany within the european community, and within trans-atlantic institutions, we must take our opportunities. would you say that this particular debate in itself says a lot about the future role and the growing importance of the european parliament? well i think that it's difficult to say exactly what kind of an institution the european parliament will turn out to be. i must admit i was struck by the way in which the debate was discussed. whether in terms of german economic and monetary union, the immediate measures that the european community will be thinking of taking, the transitional arrangements once germany is unified, and that this was done without any rancour but was done with the feelings of directly elected parliamentarians. i do believe that er we go on into the nineties the european parliament will play an increasingly important role, but this will be because countries and peoples will be asking for it to play, to control the european commission in brussels, to push forward the policies which people are looking for and it is after all, i think we should recall, that it is the germans now who are calling for strength and institutions, including increased powers for the european parliament. you're listening to the fox report. the radcliffe medical foundation will be receiving forty thousands pounds from the new national health service lottery trust. it's the first ever donation made by the lottery and dr chris payne is doctor at the churchill hospital. dr payne, what will this money be used for? well, it'll be used towards the new transplant unit that we're building at the churchill. it's practically built now, the roof is just going on, and we hope to open it later this year. and it will be used for transplants of kidneys and other organs, there are already of course many transplants done at the churchill, but they're done in very cramped conditions, and this will provide not only better conditions for the patients, but also new research laboratories, and of course with transplants preventing rejection of the graft is very important, and that's what the churchill is particularly good at. now, was this forty thousand pounds a bolt from the blue or did you know it was coming to you? well, there was a time when it was a bolt from the blue, yes, i mean i've known for a week or two, but we were delighted to receive it, er we don't er, it is something that we said months ago that we supported the n h s lottery because we do feel that money can be raised in this way painlessly towards particularly research and the sorts of things that the n h s on the whole has never really supported fully. so we think it's a good thing, we were delighted to take part in it, but surprised when we won. some people have said that the n h s should be financed from the tax payer's money and not through what is, it isn't quite a charity, but basically other means. how do you respond to that? well, of course, the n h s does pay for the vast majority of the expenditure that is needed and the income, er the annual income in this health authority here is one hundred and fifty million a year now, so our forty thousand for this capital project is not actually very much in proportion. but ever since the n h s started, and in fact long before that, people have raised money, particularly for research. lord nuffield of course established these hospitals here with a gift that now would amount to something like forty or fifty million in present day terms and without him where would our hospitals be? and we have run, in the radcliffe medical foundation, the odd raffle. we raffled a car at christmas in the john radcliffe and collected everybody's money, and we didn't have too many qualms of conscience about that, but one's got to be very careful not to beg from patients, but i think er fun for all, a lottery is fun and we feel perfectly er acceptable towards this very worthwhile project when we're given the cheque on monday. tonight — the stock market soars and the pound strengthens dramatically as britain joins the e r m, but labour warns the chancellor will use these statistics to argue that: this is because the real economy has improved, but of course, it won't be true, er and we shall have to pay the price again er at the end of the, of the honeymoon period. oxaid publishes a controversial leaflet for students explaining safe sex. never says this is the right behaviour or this is the wrong behaviour, it just says ‘this is the safest behaviour’. and david vine on who'll win the rothmans snooker grand prix. if you went on the form book, the finals should be between steve davis, who's got married, and steven hendry who's got very rich. the six o'clock news, this is patrick muirhead. an iraqi sanctions busting ship boarded by royal marines in the gulf, has now been seized by the multi-national task force. british servicemen have spent more than five hours on the vessel, the tadma, after absailing onto its deck from a lynx helicopter. the tanker was searched by coastguards protected by the marines from h m s brazen and was found to be carrying stores in breach of the un embargo; it's being diverted to a nearby port on the coast of amman for further investigations. no shots were fired, but in an earlier action today, h m s battleaxe fired warning salvos across the bows of an iraqi ship which failed to stop for cargo inspection. american and australian warships joined with british forces in a combined operation to intercept the iraqis, and defence secretary, tom king says it shows the multi-national force is working well as a unit. we have a very strong team of naval forces in the gulf now. er. i think it's significant that both these occasions involved three countries working together, er which er without er any violence, without any er injury as far as i am aware, er have stopped er these two ships that sought to continue to proceed. and twenty american servicemen are feared dead after air crashes in the gulf. two u s air force pilots have been killed after their phantom reconnaissance jet crashed in the southern desert of saudi arabia. and wreckage has been found of two american helicopters that went missing on a routine mission from the u s s okinowa . from the gulf, phil edwards. the missing helicopter's a marine u h one n , the type used extensively by the americans in vietnam.. they took off from the amphibious assault ship u s s okinowa on a routine patrol, but a short while later, all voice and radar contact was suddenly lost. the u s navy says the names of the missing crew members won't be released until the search operation is complete, but stress that the helicopters were not involved in any hostile action. phil edwards, i r n, saudi arabia. israeli police have shot dead twenty one arabs in jerusalem, and injured one hundred others who were protesting at a planned march by hard line jews. the shootings have sparked renewed violence in the occupied west bank; this report from alan frost. as the news of the jerusalem riots spread, palestinian arabs in the west bank began to react. there were a number of incidents where youths blocked roads with burning tyres, and started hurling stones at passing cars. troops moved in, and according to the military command, many areas of the west bank are once more under curfew; it is a ripple effect which will probable grow over the next few days. alan frost, i r n, tel aviv. economic euphoria has produced one of the busiest days ever in the london stock market, with shares climbing to their best levels in two months. the optimism follows britain's entry into the exchange rate mechanism and the cut in interest rates; the stock exchange one hundred index closed fifty seven points higher at just over twenty two hundred. labour leader, neil kinnock has asked mrs thatcher for a full commons debate on britain's entry into the european exchange rate mechanism; the debate's expected when the house returns next week. but already the decision has been given all party support in the house of lords. paul rowley reports. trade minister, lord hesketh, told peers that he was confident entry would help reduce inflation, but warned: e r m membership will be no panacea for the u k economy; it is not a soft option. but the labour leader in the upper house, lord cledwyn, said mrs thatcher had been forced into the decision against her wishes. in not taking this step seven years or five years ago, this country could have been saved a great deal of suffering. but the government front bench denied opposition claims that they'd deliberately delayed the decision to boost tory support on the eve of the party conference. paul rowley, i r n, westminster. and i r n's top story at six again — an iraqi sanctions busting ship boarded by royal marines in the gulf, has now been seized by the multi-national task force. british servicemen have spent more than five hours on the vessel after absailing onto it's deck from a lynx helicopter. independent radio news. it's monday, october the eighth, nineteen ninety. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. it's being reported by an american television network, that iraq is saying that all foreign hostages in saddam hussein's human shield, can leave kuwait and baghdad if president bush promises not to launch an attack. the iraqi foreign minister, tariq aziz, told the american television network c n n, that the westerners would be free to leave once the white house made that promise. meanwhile, a second iraqi ship has tried to breach the u n trade embargo imposed against iraq: earlier today a british warship, h m s battleaxe, fired warning shots across the bows of one vessel that failed to stop for a cargo inspection. hours later, a small iraqi tanker, the tadmuir was intercepted by h m s brazen off the ammani coast, and is now being searched. defence secretary tom king says baghdad is trying to test the resolve of the armed forces in the gulf. when he saw this er iraqi cargo ship which was moving up er from er the bottom of the red sea, and moving towards er iraq as we believed, er and so arrangements were made to erm enforce the united nations embargo. er. the ship was invited to stop, er didn't do so, er and warning shots were fired, but subsequently, erm royal marines went aboard, er took charge of the ship, checked it over, er and er once they'd established that there was no erm embargoed cargo, it was able to proceed. did the iraqis give any indication as to why they weren't going to stop originally? i think that may be their pattern now, that they aren't going to stop erm unless made clear that they will be required to do so, and it's further evidence that we are going to enforce this embargo. this is a united nations embargo, er and er all ships are required to comply with it, er and er the british, australian, american ships which combined in this action, and we've just had another one, and er also, there which involved also different ships, but involved er british, australian and american ships as well, er and that ship is being inspected at the present time. do you think that there will be further attempts to break the embargo? that could well be, but we now have this tremendous er cooperation of so many countries together, we have a very strong team of naval forces in the gulf now, er i think it's significant that both these occasions involved three countries working together, er share, without er any violence at any, er injury as far as i'm aware, er have stopped er these two ships that sought to continue to proceed. er. they've been checked over, as i say, the first one's been cleared, and that's been allowed to proceed, and the next ship er is being checked at this moment. if the first ship hadn't stopped when the warning shots were fired, what would have happened then — what would have been the procedure? well, the procedure that followed in this case was that the er captain obviously made clear from er h m s erm battleaxe that was originally involved, that the embargo would be enforced, er and obviously his message got across, and then it was arranged for marines to go aboard, er which they did to take charge of, of the vessel while the search took place. er. and er the question as to what steps we would take, we don't discuss those, i, but i made quite clear, and i say it again quite simply, the embargo will be enforced, er and there's no point in people thinking they can burst through it. so you would maybe have opened fire directly on that ship? i wouldn't discuss what we would do, but the commanders are quite clear what their instructions are, er they've acted extremely efficiently today, and er obviously i've kept in close touch with the incident while it was happening, er i'm very pleased with the way in which it's been handled, and in fact both incidents. you're listening to the fox report, it's eight minutes past six. the pound jumped, the stock market soared, and chancellor john major was all smiles today after britain finally joined the european exchange rate mechanism. but, now it's in, britain is coming under increasing pressure to support a single european currency; this scheme has already raised the hackles of mrs thatcher who says that sacrificing the pound will undermine britain's right to manage its own economy. financial editor douglas moffat tells us whether the prime minister's fears are justified. no we won't, because, essentially, if you give yourself one target like the exchange rate, then you lose control over one or possibly both of interest rates and money supply, both of which the government has always claimed, are absolutely fundamental to maintaining their control over the economy. and so now, we have one precise target, and the other two will have to slip by the board. the best hope of course is that the rates which the government has chosen to go in at will be sustainable, that the government will be able to combine cuts with interest rates, cuts in interest rates, with the needs of the economy and the constraints of the european monetary system, so that it actually gets a downward path of interest rates at the rate which the economy needs, without provoking a sterling crisis which would push sterling to the bottom of its permitted rates, and produce a crisis of erm of confidence needing higher interest rates. er but you know, that's a long way off, that, that's probably up to a year away. so what are the main advantages of us being part of the european exchange rate mechanism? well the theoretical advantages are that it makes it er a, a lot more er predictable for businesses to trade with europe. i have to say though that with the terms on which we've gone into the european monetary system, a six per cent fluctuation either way, which as i said means from two seventy seven deutschmarks up to three thirteen; there's quite a lot of risk there for an exporter if he prices himself in deutschmarks and he gets it wrong. er. there, there is the er belief that er it is better to have the resources of all the common market countries behind you if you want to intervene to protect or bring down the value of your currency, depending on which way it may be. but remember it was mrs thatcher, who when she was arguing against the er european monetary system, said you can't buck the markets, and ultimately that is true, or at least more precisely, you can only buck them at a cost, you can only buck it by buying or selling pounds, which messes up your money supply, or raising or lowering your interest rates at a time when you might not be wanting to do so. you're listening to the fox report. labour's spokeswoman on the economy, margaret beckett, says the chancellor hasn't stolen her party's cloak, and says that if the government had taken her party's advice a year ago, the economy wouldn't have gone through half the pain it has. he says that he won't massage er the economic figures to try and create a pre-election boomlet , but then, he said that he wouldn't go into the e r m until inflation was falling and indeed was very near the level of our competitors, so i don't think you can believe a word he says. even if mr major really means it and he doesn't intend to do a nigel lawson, a sort of nineteen eighty seven trick, er surely he can almost hardly help himself, because the pound and shares are doing very well at the moment; we're told by the economists that there's a good six months of honeymoon period, er and people feel a great pent up demand, people have a great pent up demand, which is now being released. well this is our great fear of course, i mean, we have no illusions about the fact that there will be a six, nine months, i think most people say a maximum of a year, er honeymoon period now, and this is what we've been anticipating. er. and i'm quite sure that what mr major will then say if, if er demand and borrowing and so on does take off again, er is that this is because the real economy has improved, but of course it won't be true, er and we shall have to pay the price again er at the end of the, of the honeymoon period. this is one of the reasons why we are saying to the government that they should consider what our competitor countries do, which is some form of temporary credit management; some form of temporary credit controls to squeeze off this surge in demand before it really gets going and pushes inflation up again. you're listening to the fox report, it's twelve minutes past six, i'm jane markham. there's still a bit of repair work going on on the m forty, that's between junctions one and one a between denham and the m twenty five, with the outside lane closed in both directions. further along, between junctions five and seven between stokenchurch and thame, it's down to single line traffic there in both directions for repair work. and abingdon street fair is on, so high street and ock street are closed, and there'll be local diversions today and tomorrow. and on the a forty one at er ruscote avenue, banbury, that's completely closed southbound at the junction with orchard way for paving work; traffic is being diverted. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and i've nothing to report to you on either the buses or the trains. still to come — the seaside resort of bournemouth is being turned into a fortress as the conservatives start arriving for their conference. first, with a round up of the day's local news, here's lucy bonner. an oxfordshire construction company has been fined more than one and a half thousand pounds for polluting the river wray. robin powell has this report. alfred mcalpine construction limited pleaded guilty at bicester magistrates court today; the prosecution was brought against the company by the national rivers authority. following an incident at merton, in which silty ground water escaped in to the river from a settlement lagoon which the company was using in connection with work on the m forty. the firm was fined one thousand, eight hundred pounds, and had to pay a hundred and ninety pounds costs as well as being invoiced for the n r a's investigation costs. today's case brings the number of successful prosecutions in the thames region to thirty four since the n r a was formed last year. the oxford regional health authority is denying it's seeking an out of court settlement for haemophiliacs infected with the aids virus. recent reports have suggested some local authorities are putting pressure on the government to settle early and avoid huge payouts; they're said to be concerned that if the case is drawn out, more haemophiliacs will die, and in the event of the ruling going against the government, relatives will be eligible for compensation. the oxford region has about one hundred and forty of the nine hundred cases nationally, and general manager bob nichols says they certainly wouldn't seek to settle out of court. he believes the government has a good defence and the needs of the average citizen outweigh those of the haemophiliacs. if help can be given from other er national funds because of the moral and compassionate er nature of the case, well that's fine, and that maybe what some health authorities have been pressing. but actually to press for an out of court settlement which will mean we have to stop other services or stop er building schemes, seems to me wrong whilst we are being advised that we have a strong defence. a man has appeared before abingdon magistrates charged with rape; it follows an incident early on saturday morning in the harwell area near didcot. he's been remanded in custody for seven days. and another man has been remanded in custody by bicester magistrates, charged with a sex offence at a north oxfordshire barracks; the alleged offence is said to have happened on friday night at the royal army ordnance barracks at arncott near bicester. he'll appear again on october the fifteenth. a new college course is starting today bringing the international stock exchange to north oxfordshire. the north oxfordshire college in banbury will be hosting a course sponsored by the stock exchange, to show private investors how to use it. but janet morby from the college's business and community services division, says it's not a course for making fast money. we're aiming it at, at private individuals — people who've got an interest in the stock exchange, and are trying to update their interest and get as much information as they can about it. one thing we must stipulate; it isn't a get rich quick course, it's giving you the background of it so that you can go away with as much information as possible. south oxfordshire district council has reopened its ladygrove park after it was closed for a cleaning up operation; the park was closed some weeks ago after gypsies staying there left it full of litter. the recreation officer for south oxfordshire district council, roy seddon, says steps have now been taken to prevent the gypsies returning to the park. we're preventing caravans entering because we want to er prevent and incursion by the gypsies back into the park again, having spent several weeks trying to get them out, and another week or two er clearing the place up after them. we, we've erected a metal barrier to prevent them coming back in. fox f m news, lucy bonner reporting. it's eighteen minutes past six. bournemouth's international conference centre has been turned into a fortress as the conservatives begin arriving for their party conference. the man heading the operation, assistant chief constable, alan rose from dorset police, says security for the meeting can't get much tighter. well in anybody's terms it's a major operation, the biggest in this country consistently each year. we of course did it in nineteen eighty six, er but this year there are about fifteen hundred officers involved from fifteen different police forces. they've come from merseyside, avon and somerset, hampshire, dorset, er wiltshire, as i say, fifteen different er forces. now one thing that seems to be a bone of contention with local people particularly, is the cost of it — what's the cost going to run out to? well the cost, er we are within budget and the cost was one point nine six million, er but of course central government do pay fifty one per cent of that. how secure do you believe this area is, the i c and the highcliffe? well, no security is one hundred per cent, it's impossible to make any area completely secure, but it's as tight as it possibly can be and i'm quite happy with the security at the present time. how long has the operation been going on? well we've been planning for it for something like eleven months, with a small planning team, but at its height, just before conference, there were a total of seventy officers involved. how many people have been vetted? er about fifteen thousand. how many have you had to reject from that number? only a small handful fortunately. you're listening to the fox report. reports from lebanon suggest that british hostages could be closer than ever to freedom. the speculation that the archbishop of canterbury's special envoy, terry waite, will be free by the end of this week. james matthews, our reporter in jordan says it appears the pro-iranian group thought to be holding most of the hostages,hezbalar is ready to end its demands for a prisoner exchange. we have to rely simply on the speculation that we hear. if the informed sources in beirut er have said through the al, the prestigious almahan newspaper, now this is one that er that rightly predicted the release of the american hostages, frank reid and robert polehill. they say that a release is on the cards this week er they make no mention of any ransom and they say terry waite is a priority for release; he is at the top of a list of western hostages about to be set free. so, so where is this ransom story come from do you think? er the ransom story may, may have come from er a source er possibly a hezbalar source er trying to latch on to the, basically to the er the, the thoughts of freedom and just to jump on the bandwagon. there are all sorts of people involved and the various underground factions, that maybe that one has, er as, probably as an afterthought er considered that, that maybe money in the release of any western hostages, that may be where the story has come from, but certainly from the informed sources, and the, the, er certainly on the evidence of past hostages releases, er we wouldn't really have expected that er ransom would be demanded, obviously we have to wait and see when er, when the hostages are set free. if this really does happen it would be a remarkable situation because up until now they've been let out in dribs and drabs, they're talking here about a kind of mass release aren't they? oh indeed, but er you have to consider the situation the diplomatic situation between britain, er the west in general and iran which is the backer of hezbalar which does pull the strings of the kidnappers, is perhaps er diff, different and in a more improved state than it ever has been before. certainly it would be a sensational news event and for the families of the hostages involved and the people themselves, it would be, er it would be er tremendous. you're listening to the fox report, i'm jane markham. it's twenty three minutes past six. the parents of an oxford haemophiliac who recently died after contracting the h i v virus from contaminated blood, have written to the prime minister calling for a quick, out of court compensation deal. the letter's bound to add to press, er add to press for a settlement with a number of tory m p's expected to bring up the matter at the party's conference at bournemouth. almost a thousand haemophiliacs are fighting for compensation after being treated with imported blood products. an ex gratia payment's already been made, but arthur turner wants the mattle, matter settled as soon as possible. if they want to settle out of court, then it has got to be a really substantial settlement to satisfy these people because er those that have already died, er they entered into the litigation in the hope of seeing it through and making sure that, er if anything did happen to them, their wives and families would be catered for and would be er financially settled. but the way things are at the moment, er you know, these people, the next of kin and dependents of those that have already died, until they get money through, they're going to have to go cap in hand to the government to get whatever handout they can. and let's face it er social security payments for this sort of thing aren't all that great at the moment. you're listening to the fox report. an explicit leaflet and poster for students sloganned ‘take a course in safe sex’ has been causing quite a furore. it was leaked to the press nearly a month before its official launch; a national paper detailed many of the leaflet's suggestions in the some ideas to get you going section which includes a variety of unusual ideas between its first suggestion — pecks on the cheek, and its last — cuddling up and sleeping. it's been published by oxaids with help from oxford city council and the health authority. the front of the poster is a playfully erotic photograph of a couple taking the leaflet's advice. i asked roger mortlock from oxaid why the leaflet was so explicit. mm. on a saturday and a sunday mm. which i think you can do with amer certainly in the summer season if you americanize it and all that and, and just, well i mean, we, we did you could have a glorious macdonalds couldn't you? yeah. that's right. then, you know you wanna start from that and build back out bits yeah. you know definitely cos i mean if they walked into here on stood on that bar hundred and twenty people well actually you don't want them, you want them in here and bar's there. well that's right. and that's the bar they use. yeah. yeah. that's right. you don't sort of use no we have that closed and yeah. and try and sort yeah. of shutter it off in some yeah. way. i mean maybe well i think maybe even getting literally shutters rather than those grills. and then you can no, i think, i think, i think i tell you what we had laura, jean's daughter had erm a nurses' dinner here it was about,the they wanted to come on a, on a disco night but mm. they wanted a meal beforehand yeah. yeah. so we did like a meal for, i think there was about thirty of them yeah. and we put them onto that area yeah. and er and i said to laura, ah i know, i'll put so i'll, i'll, i'll put something on the big screen so you know, some videos whatever. i said, ooh! i'll tell you what, i've got live aid all taped on you know, from years ago mm. so she said oh that'll be good! so i put live aid on. course, i'm sat in the office like this, and they're all sitting down to their lovely fo five course meal and of course great! first couple of bands on, then it stops and shows about quarter of an hour starving kids ! oh! i know, yeah. that and i went, i went oh no! i had to leave yeah. it off . yeah. so, so that's like a video thing? yeah. or t v. you can have, you can have normal t v on there yeah. or video. erm so is that where it comes from up there? it all comes from, yeah. yeah. well it's controlled ba back in there, that's where oh right. it's connected from. yeah. right. and you can actually see it from everywhere in the club except for that corner there. what, seen, what have you been to that liberti is it liberties by the town church? have you been in there? no, i haven't been in there. i mi ha i'll, i'll, you ought to go in. i'd like to go actually. yeah. yeah, i must, i must have been, i haven't, no i haven't been. i mean, i've been in there when it unless he's drastically altered it it only used to hold about a hundred people. it was only licensed for a hundred people. it's a video thing int it? yeah. yeah. isn't it? i don't know what he's done inside, but yeah i like that. i has he still got it then or is it,i re oh receiver steve that got it i'm not sure. ain't it? yeah. mi i'm not sure. and bob is taking churchills over this week that's right. is he? is he? is it this week? i knew he was getting it. he'll be ups absolutely, he must be absolutely no he's just come back from tunisia on holiday so he'll need it. that i'd need it, he'll be going in, in with bloody mob if i'd have done it. stupid he is! what did fred talk him into all this for the blame won't he? talking him into there's not,no they don't got to be doing meals or owt upstairs. no. mind you, then maybe that comes with time of year, mind you, i'm not doing any either. so having said that i, you know, i mean,i i i exc i if he's not gonna do that well even if he or even if he, even if he is doing that he's not gonna, he's not gonna i mean, cos you've gotta do it better than him. do it very well. erm but i think if, if same as er carlton is far too big for the abbey! i mean, like our cricket club dinner, i mean we have it's usually between sort of eighty, and a hundred and twenty people, but mm. i mean we must, they must spend twenty quid a head at the bar mm. at least. we could get them here nicely. yeah. be absolutely . but we, but we go to the carlton, well so mm. i've been to. i mean, we've been all round but the last three years we've stayed at carlton mm. i said, he's done a pretty good job. yeah. but there's no reason why you don't do you know but i, i tell you, really, you'd, you'd and something different because i mean like you go to the headway and it's just the same yeah. the beer's bloody awful! well the other thing that's really good is, cos you've all got that set up cos it is a disco yeah. you don't have to upset people charge it i and no! bring gear in while they're eating and be setting no, no, no, no, no. up and no, no messing about, no. testing the equipment and all that sort of stuff. no, no, no. no you see it's all there. i think the d j that's plays background music while you're eating while you're eating. and then winds it up when you yeah. when you want, you know. when you want, yeah. mm. yeah. it makes makes it you know and then we jus you just ah, have, we'll just have, i mean ceiling's right in blue, so i mean mm. you know. what sort of paint is it that? well these damn, these bloody tiles cost a fortune! they say just i mean we,yo th there's bits and pieces of like you know yeah, i mean like you have to redo some of tiles but a lot of them . er, excuse me ! ooh! pardon me. and even things like the cocktail side i mean, although you never use it, it's a bit of a joke, i mean it actually fits into american bit dunnit? ah yeah, it's americanified, yeah, course it, well you can make co you could make cocktails oh i know you could, yeah. without no messing couldn't you? not expensive ones either. mm. yeah, could have one of these. manhattan transfers are nice though. that, i remembered what they call that place at whitecross, they call damn yankee. i'm going to erm whitecross? at guiseley. oh! i'm gonna, next door to our ramsden's fish and chip shop. oh, oh is it? well what i'm gonna do is, i'm go he's opened one in london at heathrow airport. yeah. there's one in blackpool now. is there? they used to be absolutely beautiful there but they're crap now! well that's or whatever it is. that's the problem innit? i mean, one,yo yo be you get good because of the reputation of doing something and, and the one person and, and one person doing it, yeah. doing it and then because you're good everybody comes and you cease to do it, you're upstairs doing the books instead mm. no, not me and you employ staff. sunshine! i ah don't do books. no, but you know what i mean, i mean you get rob does the books. pulled away from the mm. actual yes. what you're good at yes. onto other staff. and it's very difficult to get other people to do it like you want it. oh yeah. that's right. so if we got erm yeah, so, yeah that i'll, i'll erm i'll get brenda to go get me a rec erm, a menu and send me it. cos more you get it's easier to is it? bloody hell it's cold! i know. yeah. get in erm hugh do you know anne? anne yeah. hughey. yeah, we've met, we, we meet on a friday night love don't we? when there's only me in company that's sober. yeah, she comes, she comes up, yeah. yeah. wha what? no, er customers friday, i didn't mean er yeah. anne's just saying we erm ought to pull that whole sta dance floor out and have it all flat floored. flat. yeah. and you could then do something that's that's more american anyway. yeah. yeah. and, i mean you can create a dance floor by the tables and just lighting round it. i mean that's all it, as i say, i don't know why i didn't think of it cos in the she well i do know why i didn't think of why don't we make that like a rebel fort? that would be that like the alamo you mean? yeah. the thing blows out of it? yeah. arrows stuck in it! are we erm oh no not at all. no, that isn't what i, no, no, no no, no. yeah i know. but as i say, if you took that out you create a massive empty space then. yeah, well i it makes it, it then you can makes it so that you can, you see the other thing what's your name? hughey again? hugh, hugh, yeah. oh right. well we were just thinking about functions you see yeah. well as it is now you, you know, you really don't wanna be half of them up there and half of them down here on a table. and you could get so many in on the thing. i think you have, i, i sort of. and then just lino the whole floor. cos, well the floor can be a disco anyway, like, you know. it's not a disco, disco, you know what i mean? you know no. no. no. no. i mean lin yeah, something i me nearly for the sake of, for the sake of a few bands that we do, i mean most of the bands on the local level are used to playing in pubs so they just had to play on the floor anyway and the rest of it well it's a bloody ego who needs the stage . and any, any major names you could always, if you need, if it was that big yo and important they'd be at the wouldn't they? no, but well that'd be no but i mean you could get a a stage in pull a stage in. stage in from across the er across the way. just temporary yeah. staging that's put in and cast away. well where do you find that? that break and special tie it at the back of there? yeah. doesn't make sense but oh i dunno. i know ! i dunno you can't see his head my little sweetie pie! the horrible little int there? well, you know, once he, once he's once he's resigned himself to not getting this back. is there no chance of it? what, of him getting this back? no. not now,no not pigs can fly can they! now, not elliel. da i mean once he sort of re i mean that's why all the fuss with jean stopped because that yeah, but a thing like was it? that is, it's just that mr who really didn't know anything from his and needle and thread was stirring the shit! no, she's been getting enough of that. but once he's, once he's resigned himself to that, he's then gotta look at that operation next door and he must be losing money hand over fist for the amount of space it is. that's right. he to take out all these walls out, right the way back and is it just and it's as big as this. and you've got back to that wall mhm. mm. i mean it's a co it's almost a bloody conference centre to be honest! mind you, though you could, you could seat if you did, sort of classroom seating in there a, room this size in that, er, you could, you could probably seat six hundred people. not as many as the dome. even, at six hundred. not a quarter. yeah. i mean it's a dome and a bit. i told angie today that we're gonna extend. oh did you? yeah. he said he could do them himself because i'm not having . they were gonna charge erm mention it. oh. well be fucking . yeah, well, the tro he sa lights. it's the lighting isn't it? so erm mm. need to get a whole batch of these ti mm? we need to get a whole batch of these tiles get them all sorted out. who? these tiles. yeah? cos they're that's what multi deaf in it oh are you? yeah i am actually. ha hi i can't hear you, i can't hear men usually. it's only, it's only screaming women i can hear! well we er no but it's really embarrassing sometimes cos i, i have to look at men cos yeah. when they're talking som i'm sure they think i'm bloody crazy! and read their lips. and that i'm in love with him or something ! yeah. yeah, no, i can't understand that! no just erm, no we need, we need to get a whole load of ne er tiles cos the whole club wants re-tiling, not re-tiling but there's a whole area, areas and that. and po and polystyrene and and, they're the wrong, you know, if you're gonna, if you're gonna redecorate the whole thing you need to erm you need to, you know. yeah. well yeah you don't need no, what i said. three diff four different kinds of blue in the roof and things like that. well not really. they're awful things to paint aren't they? a do you do them rounds or what,spra can't you spray them? hughey does them, i don't know. how do you do them? how do you do them? just stick the brush on them. you have right. to work with what you've got. well that's true. a man's only as good as the yes i know. tools he's given. yeah. oh yeah, i quite like that idea with them all like that. what? yes, definitely. i think the punters would appreciate it as well. yeah. hello! yeah. no, not yet, yeah. okay. oh right. that's right. yes it is, three thirty. okay. it's just a matter of er,i i mean all we need to do is, is, is sort out a sort of formal agreement with elliel that, you know, and how, how the management company or the limited company's going to sort of manage the place and th then we'll er got to, you know, we've got two people who've got a, a very successful business they're actually drinks' suppliers, morecambe bay wines and spirits er, who are gonna come in and have er they'll sign the cheque for the rent there and then, i mean it's er it's a matter of just th you know, all it is is, is they're saying well, you know what actually is the formal arrangement? and we're sort of saying, we haven't actually got round to formalizing it yet. er mm. right. right. yes. yeah. erm er, well jean's got the exact figures, er, she's, she's done it all, she's got it all, all down for, for, for this afternoon. erm, i don't know, i've written it down. and th on the cherish you and whatever else and th erm, i mean we've already got a situation where we've got erm through peter and david, the other two, i mean we've got erm erm two or three breweries who are quite willing to erm to give us quite a substantial amount of money not as loans, as write-offs against barrelage erm which means that we don't have any repayments to make etcetera. so they're effectively sort of grants and ye in, in that way. erm mm, no, you just play it,yo well, you he yes and no, i mean i er you, you, you were ge you were getting in pra i the equivalent of thirty pound a barrel discount erm, which is probably as much as you could er could get, er in, in in a free free house any, er except that you've got, you know, fifteen, twenty thousand pounds up front as a payment to you. erm the company is morecambe bay wines and spirits. erm and this is going to sound stupid but i don't know their second names. peter and david are the two erm they're up to yeah. right. okay. erm it's just to two of them and er well that, but your main areas will be gonna be before. so what? we're just saying main area's you ought to save them wooden type of things for it. you know the yeah. yeah. should have bought them for . ve er, yeah, i mean it's, it's are they expensive though? expensive, it is very expensive. well you could have your dance floor, actual dance floor whatever, couldn't you? and then something mm. well it's you can make it different like and make it sort of still a dance area. yeah. something like they have at chapel . yeah, what have they got down in there? just the wooden floor. it's just, just a little, a little sort of parquet small flooring type of thing. oh! that type of floor, yeah. and carpet all round it and just a oh it's carpet is it round yeah. it? but it's only a tiny area yeah but isn't it? yeah. but as i say, in the sugar house so we i mean, we've ju we, all we did was, was we the mass the big central area we just literally sort of lino type floor and carpeted round the edges round the edge. and into the bar area. and it's a ma i mean you get four hundred people on the dance floor in the sugar house. erm where is this sugar house? it's in erm in lancaster? behind waring and gillow. how do you get to that? say the rest of us didn't know where it was. up, up the alleyway by the yorkshire, you got yorkshire house there ah! yes. waring and gillow, and it's up that alleyway there. oh is it in there? it's, it was the architects' department erm, till they go like you know, till they palatine hall erm, it used to be the architects' department. we bought it off the city, well michelin bought it off the city council and they gazumped us and erm but we, we have tables and chairs onto the dance floor on other nights and just pull them back when it's clear yes. saturday night there's gonna yeah. be a thousand people in. that's how we used to do it. ah yeah. so er can they get, yeah, they get eleven, twelve how many's ? er i think they le it's nine hundred the isn't it? is the like, legal limit. they've, they put like twelve, thirteen on a night. they've put twelve, thirteen hundred in. but, when, when they can but you've ju i in the empire if you, if you've i don't know actually,i before they before they messed about with all the raised seating and everything, if it had been just left open like the old floral hall, like it was you'd have got seventeen i know. eighteen hundred in. with a balcony. erm i mean as an ol as the old floral hall they must have had mm mm. they must have been putting two thousand in you know yeah. in those days. yeah. yeah. well i mean, they'll all be packed up in the bars upstairs wouldn't they, and everything yeah. you know, leaning over the balcony and all that sort of er yeah. mm. but i'd er, i'd you know the way they've, the way they've got it now i don't, i don't know. well but, you know i i mean actually the other, the other aspect of it anne if you, if you pull this out you could be talking about hosting small conferences and that yeah. couldn't you? definitely. cos if you're looking at a two hundred capacity conference for er yeah. easy-peasy! no messing! ma that, that just makes the total picture just different altogether. so right so that's that little job you sorted out. probably need to i'm get i'm gonna play with that and see what probably need to get ken's per we can do with it then. probably need to get ken's permission! who? mr . ken's permission? what for? structural alterations. what for? for that? mind you,act actually i've gotta be catched i won't actually do it i'll just come in run a mo just give it complete customers and and help they'll say well you, it's awful, you're awfully sorry but it's . on what? actually th from the original structure, i mean, it's, it's, it was half that size anyway. mm. well as i say, you can see where it was, it's that sort of diamond well why do you es i think. did you have get his, well it int structural is it? no. i wouldn't no, it int because structural's walls. oh that's get his permission for nothing! well he won't know i don't i don't think he dare show at the moment. his face at moment, he hadn't been anywhere round to, since all this happened before christmas. obnoxious little man int he? he's like a ferret! mm. i get on very well with him though. so what is so there's nothing to the other side, just apart from this big room? yeah. but, and a bar. what, and that in there? yeah. so that's that one? there's a massive room with twelve snooker, twelve snooker tables well, yeah, well, well in. er just maybe the size of this. right. it is the size well, no of this. it is exactly well i mean eh? yeah. it is the size of this, yeah. yeah. right. so we'll want and what they've, what they've got, they've got the bar in a far bottom corner you used to go in to play snooker didn't you? i did. disco nights. when we have a when we were talking to them and we had the door through and my snooker got really good. mm. we did, we had a snooker table at home and my snooker will never get good. i used to end up hitting them like a golf ball! used to go bloody berserk! good with iron and everything you know. oh. them were the days. mm. i hated it! what? when you were at ? do you fancy a quick game then? no. . yeah. might do in a minute. well i shall go because if that fella's been from, if that fella said i didn't have a job i'll be jumping up and down like a what d'ya call it! oh alright. okay. i'm, i'm going to erm we'll make that into something american. but i don't know what. have to think of that. we do we will, i'm just saying we do wanna get into cocktail and ranch house. oh. eh? said a ranch house from . sod off! no we don't wanna be looking at you see some fucking morons we get in! no, we wanna be that's who we need to advise us don't we? we need geoffrey along to advise us. yeah. geoffrey, how would you mm. how do you americanize this? bastards stealing our customers last night! yeah . yeah. criticizing a scooterist where's my customers? criticizing a scooterist don't want them in town and then put functions on and cheap beer for them when they come. well they do that don't they? i mean, they're all you know. supposed to be four hundred in the ranch house last night. on the ground like. we need lo we needs lots of piles of steaming horse manure and things don't we around and stuff like that? gotta get it right. no! that's for frontier land. we are we are erm thought it was hardly . we're boston. yeah definite . that's right. we're near boston. yeah. cheers. yeah. yeah! no. why? does it punters wouldn't go, go for it. no. no i don't, no, no, no, no, no, but i know it wants to be erm eh! have you seen the new rules on er bar staff? no. they're not allowed to smoke. oh yeah. no, you're not. no, no, no. no. full stop? anywhere. yeah. not, you can't even wander outside so i go doo doo doo doo doo. that's right. and, you've gotta wear gloves to use the till. you what? you can't ha you can't handle money and and serve pull pints. who says that? this is health and environment, it's a new when's it in operation. er er, i don't know actually. i've got it in disco club mirror, it's the front page out the oh i couldn't have that! grantham . they're treating ba got to have a look at this. they're treating alcohol as food. yeah. so all the hygiene things on food apply to alcohol. oh i know that. so you can't handle, you can't handle you're gonna have to have somebody else to take the money won't you? fucking cashier. you'll have to have a cashier. . you can't do it though. you can't have,yo it'd mean one to serve and one take the money. it's fucking ridiculous! say if you're, if you're really busy at the bar just taking your gloves off and fucking putting them on. oh aye you're gonna do it aren't you! well what we'll do is we'll do, we'll just have a pump at the side of the till. well you there's punters on the door ! yeah, you know like fucking ! you know like it is. oh no it isn't! you wanna go ! alright then. or nuclear license opens no, just ask them if it's effective with your license just, you know, sort of as you come mind you, one from the sale. vo volks volks took them we're sterilizing the bar with those. volks took them into, not volks, er what they called? somebody took me to see one of their pubs in liverpool it was wonderful! where the shutters are yeah. all, just hardboard like that, with just a little o like that and you, you, you shout a pint of beer and you pushed your money through and then a beer ca came out the other side ! bet it was erm it was rough! yeah ! waste of time though innit? it was a bit of a rough area. what type of beer are you getting! no, and a pint of sherry! yeah, and plastic glasses as well. yeah ! oh my great! i mean, the only way you could do that would be if you had a till at one end and people bought whatever they wanted and were given a voucher and you walked down the other end and exchanged mm. it for drink. that's the only way you could actually make that work at all. yeah, but just think of how much messing about there is. ah! it'd be unbelievable! i mean it'd be two thi forty we'd be round the bloody bend! yeah, but it's somebody sitting in an office innit deciding this! yeah, but who, who do you you know why sitting in a suit in a nice office saying, wo! this is a good idea. you know they don't serve behind the bar on a saturday night. they want somebody here from the for half an hour and them not being served first here! you know what happens, d'ya know what happens then they'll get people like. yeah. people will get so antiseptic that they'll not be able to stand any sort of germs of any sort. that's yeah. true that! i mean, you think about all this i mean a load of crap when they have larders and all that! alright, you might have got the odd but it's all this warming, doing it and then half leaving it and then yeah. warming it up again that does the damage. certainly does. mm. so well i shall wander back with my little book now. i'm er i'm er, i'm just er what? right. i shall come tomorrow tonight when it's dark. right. i'm o ooh! actually tomorrow night's not a good id well no, nonsense oh is it rave night tomorrow yeah. night? yeah. ah! rob's coming to look at lights. yeah, i mean it's all light and smoke and all the tables and chairs are out and can't see a thing. and you won't be able to see anything. i know i come on a friday i were absolutely gobsmacked! yeah. you can only see twelve feet er, you'd think the place was empty in the bar. erm i mean saturday night would be be better anne. oh saturday night then. yeah, well i'll have a wander in saturday night then. but is that is that yeah. oh. this is definite. bye! bye. you know that i'm not gonna get out of course. gotta climb up that other end. there's another there's a orifice down there. right. why are the doors always wrote wrong way! i know. i know. that's er, that's our that's ours just there, yeah. yeah. that's ours as well there. oh sorry . that's ours as well down there. you get enough for twenty five k hav haven't they? and that's with the chip system obviously. yeah. it's er cleaner's room, two dressing rooms and toilets down there. well this is the area that you'll have to do something about is the if you're gonna knock it into the winter gardens this is the area that knocks into the winter gardens. oh! does that lead well, along that corridor is well i, we won't be doing anything nearly spectacular area than this. it won't open. mm. where are all the light switches? i mean, what, what we initially, this was a cloakroom this, this area yeah. wasn't here,i this mm. was the door and there was a little cloakroom yeah. but er, our customers don't take their jackets off anyway oh right. don't they? erm so you don't need a cloakroom then? no. but more in, but what it was we when i was in here, sort of five days a week, nine to five job mhm mm. it was getting depres it was getting oppressive in that little office down there. oh! i would have thought, yeah. awful! you'd get a so we were gonna move an office up to here with some natural light in it. yeah. cos there's nothing worse than there being a room with no natural light in, really. i didn't realize it at the time but i think it wants eh! no they think it's really bad. yeah. yeah. so it's really bad not enough light. it's oppressive. right. course, the other thing you've gotta invest in is tables and well you don't need chairs, but tables, i mean as you can see we've got two hundred of those poly-cotton chairs in there which is erm can be used. i'll get some tables up with erm mm. tables are quite expensive though. so many places barry are going down well, true i tell you. yeah. just keep, just, in fact just keep well le let's get it sorted out and then we'll just get er er cos plenty of storage space and stuff. mm. used to have tables and extensions you see mm. bob makes tables. bloody hell! i've got extensions, sure. i tell you what make i trestle tables are so expensive aren't they? i know! incredible price! you still . you can't, you can't get either, you know, proper no. you know, big wooden i know. trestle tables you just can't get anywhere. no. there's another wasted area. there's incredible wasted areas in this place! it's very badly planned you know terrible innit? inside here. it's all corridor and er mm. it's all foyers and things. wants to be like chamber of horrors! as you come down, you know. right! alright. i'm off! speak to you later. right. cheers. bye! bye bye. great! what is it? it's an old ribbon. i know. what's on it? i'll have a look. brewing up, yeah, no? what? brewing up, no? no. the erm you know that bottle of bleach in the cellar was it bleach? yeah. didn't smell very strong the top's been off it. the top's been, yeah. i just brought it up with some er, just in case cos we don't, we don't really wanna use that for like these. not really. er i've taken all the rubbish down except for that long box in do we wanna get any more of the empty cases out today? yeah. about forty quid's worth of empty cases. cor! it's amazing what they're doing with them. yeah. i know. have you been to put a bet on? yeah. how did you know? i guessed. what on one race or mm. just the one. what time are they coming at? well they said about, what? who? elliel? elliel, yeah. half past three. has jean got to be here? yeah. she said sh sh sh she said she'd be here about half two. she's been to a funeral who's dead? i don't know. some, somebody on the county council. he's probably been dead for about two years, they haven't noticed! in that case, if this thursday ge get anything like the other thursdays we've got enough to last. is there a book for that like? er webb, webb missed the first one blasted it over the top and giggs missed one at the end. they scored all theirs and giggs had to score his oh yeah. to make them so that they could miss the last one? yeah. i mean fucking awful! this fucking stuff they put down. well, yeah, but it's the police's fault innit? yeah. you know, i mean it it's bloody outrageous that the police can dictate you know, something f a cup's been there for i know. bastards! hundreds of years and police can dictate the what you're gonna do. don't be silly! yeah. may as well. so they're a bit sticky. nearly broke my neck on one, pulling one, one of those crates out. pulling this? yeah ! yeah, they'll be fucking . oh, actually you can smell the bleach now can't you? yeah. are you gonna do them all? yeah. may as well. fucking no more cos they'll all be here for four o'clock. probably forgotten pi the line cleaners. i did write it down for her in the list. all this thing in the press and on the t v about kevin keagan being a folk hero in newcastle, he i know! how he long did he play for them? he only played there two years! yeah. two seasons. two seasons. i mean, i can't believe that he's i mean fuck! ossie's had a hard game like, swindon oh yeah. being promoted and then i know. somebody taking the fucking that's awful! points off them. what have they th they ducked three points as it is. no, they've put them down in third division now. yeah, originally they'd have ducked for three yeah, yeah. points and yeah. stopped, and then prefer to go like when they appealed because he'd knocked them again. i mean, you know, how long's he, when did he get the job, may or something, last year? i mean he's hardly you know, he's had yeah. half a season, i mean that's ridiculous! and then the vote of confidence, he'll be there. oh god! how the fuck can he do that? i know. every time they do it , don't they, you know? i know. yeah. he er especially when the chairman says he's got every faith in him. you know you're gonna a er a telegram the next morning. outrageous that! i wondered when they offered keagan to do it? yeah. i fucking watched the programme on that who who's the greatest? it was about fucking sportsmen of the week, and it was keagan and george best. oh i, i remember that, i didn't watch it, i refused to watch it. i mean that's actually going in for keagan! i think fucking dennis taylor was on singing his praises. singing whose, keagan's praises? yeah. i think it was dennis taylor, taylor. that's a that was difference yo you end up voting, you end up actually voting who's the nicest human being, not yeah. really exactly. that's why it was,cos he's not the best footballer. you know, dedicated to his club and all this yeah. stuff. but i mean, he, he wasn't he's a particularly was he? i mean, he went to liverpool, liverpool made him that's right. yeah. from scunthorpe and then, i mean, he, he went after mega bucks in, in erm hamburg. hamburg, then you know,so being a big fish in a small pond at southampton and then but last couple of years a quick i mean, his contract with newcastle worth, worth a fortune wasn't it? cos it was one of those first ones that was sponsored by who was the it? the brewery was it wasn't it? was it pools? no. it was er, erm wasn't it newcey brown ale went and sponsored newcastle? no, no. but anyway, i mean, they er they ended up, instead of paying the club a sponsorship they ended up paying him, you know, like erm yeah. like the car phone company did with yeah. ian botham to go to worcestershire. but he wasn't the fucking greatest, oh hardworking i'd say, he fucking oh yeah. grafted. yeah. that's right. he wasn't a he wasn't that . he wasn't a very skilful player. no. he wasn't a natural at all. he worked hard though. yeah. he had a, he had a, he had a, a lot, he had a he was quite nippy and he had a good scu you know, good goal good goals. scoring sense yeah. sometimes, but i mean that was all. he was a good player but i but i think he's always looked after himself, i mean he's he's yeah. he's probably one of oh yeah. the richest british footballers. he will be. yeah. i can't think anybody would have more. no. no. i mean it, it no, he was one of the first with the shrewd sort of business sense yeah. and all that. fucking mick 's making a fortune training at arsenal! is he? doing really well yeah. and francis , he's doing quite yeah. well. didn't he used to be in scrap metal is what francis was toilet rolls. telling me? is it? oh. did you see erm this is your life last night? no. it was alan bleasdale. oh! the ah ? yeah. and they had, they had er kenny dalgleish and graham souness, and er all the liverpool, like? yeah. and they had er tt erm reed peter reed? yeah. cos he used to alan bleasdale used to be peter reed's teacher at school and the did he? yeah. a and erm he, he coached the football te he would be bunking off! he coached the football team the, the what place is that then? the kirby boys and they won the national competition or something or other with the, with them. no,th the till man said we have to keep erm you know the receipt one yeah, but we never put that on do we? i know. but we need to keep er a, a receipt in it. because and just have it so it's not yeah. yeah. so th there's a switch inside on, off. yes, yes, i know that. he said fa because erm one of the keys is damaged erm the bot you know when the, you know the printout yeah. when it prints out the bottom of like the noughts and, the bottom of the figure is missing, you can read it, it's not important, but it's done because the one, it wo it's punching onto, onto metal because that paper's not on our till receipt. see that thing you had whe when the bar was taken this time was that just for tax like no that was, that was our er that was our accounts for the year. does volks actually know that, yeah? yeah. i think volks just wanted out of the area to be honest. yeah well don't care. they're further further up north aren't they now? mm. well they've got the depot at rochdale which services up to blackpool and this was out on a limb. yeah. cos,i it kendal's done from newcastle. is it? yeah. up to there oh course! yeah. and then rochdale up towards blackpool and we're stuck right in the bloody middle so the er, they were a, like we were one delivery that's all it, and we weren't that big an account, you know even doing a reasonable trade you're not yeah. for one pub. yeah, well they, they, you obviously need two, three that like, to make it worth your while. yeah. it's getting a bit fucking rank you know! now d'ya know how dirty those shelves get? mind you, the cra crates are fairly dirty aren't they at times. yeah. that's what does it. on the bottoms as well. yeah, you sometimes get them some of them look as if there's, i dunno vinta vintage newcastle brown you know cobwebs and dust on them int there and spiders' webs on them. i hope saturday's as good as last saturday it was quite a good night that. well i, i, i, i honestly thought the bar should have done , and i'm sure it fucking did you know. didn't have enough people in to do anything else. i dunno. we'd have had, they'd have had to spent about five quid a head. yeah but they were. like the shorts were absolutely hammered! like there were them lads they had fucking four in a glass like and, there was loads of, so many drinks like i served loads. vod vodka jack daniels and some other spirit in it. i ju i just wanna know how much terri took, you know . yeah. i'll have a look. like, erm, i'm, like i'm not fucking saying to she's, she's but she's, she just gets fucking absolutely stupid! it's really silly like. like, and you know that, is it alis alison and somebody? she's always on about alison like, i'm sure she fucking doesn't charge them for drinks. well, which one's alison? she's er, she always comes looking for terri. she's going with that little monster with the long hair. played in the band here once and they aha. were crap or something. kevin er, kevin i think his name is. she's just though, she's fucking outrageous ! she doesn't know what she's doing half the time! like you go, even saying i did serve quite a bit faster than her, which i do like, you know she still should o i if the bar done seven fifty she should have, she should have done what two, three and a half? oh yeah. at least, like. well she, i mean, she might have done it. she should have done a bit more than that actually. mm. she should have been doing three hundred. still leaves me a hundred and fifty ahead of her like, you know. like, you didn't serve any drinks did you barry? no. no. er so all twenty, twenty quid's worth maybe at the end. not much. if it's gonna be like that we do need a glass collector don't we? we need somebody on to collect glasses. but er, there wasn't really any even though it was quite, we, we, we did have quite a lot of glasses. mind you, they would have gone and broke if we line them up. yeah, but ka katrin wasn't, katrin wasn't. she'd got no, oh that's right, yeah. you know well that's another thing, i think that black man as well is getting drinks as well. mind you, you wouldn't mind, you'd give him a couple like, if you yeah. help us, you no. know like. well that's right, i mean, you know, two or, two or three drinks to us is only costing like a quid, well it's only a quid. yeah, but she's been caught doing it as well. ach! it's not the point, jean put o said to me last week about the fucking . like, and there's other people in there that are you know, they should be wrote down, and she looked at me yeah. like. yeah. oh yeah, i mean, they're gonna have to be from now on cos we're not gonna be, you know, we're gonna be responsible to yeah. somebody else, not just ourselves, you know. okay, if we wa if we want to turn a blind eye to it then that's our business you know but er but when you're, when you're actually erm answerable to someone else. yeah. present accounts to somebody else you can't do it like that can you? you know water's looking disgusting! what other results were there last night? er forest the won four two. oh did they? doing really well. .liverpool drew one each with bristol rovers. that don't sound right. i've seen it, seen that one i've seen that match they were lucky. sunderland won, who were they playing? sunderland won. er oxford i think. they were winning three nil three two at the end of it. oxford scored one on the end not many first division teams left is there? nine. about nine is there? wrexham were unlucky against blackburn. oh! weren't they? didn't they play well? yes! they've always been a i thought they played good club side wrexham. yeah, they have but i mean, they got a lot of good skilful young lads haven't they? they're only like nineteen and twenty yeah. and i mean that young fullback looked brilliant! that lef yeah. mm mm. quite good. composed as well like. talented. yeah. it's a funny law that er clear chance at goal job innit? i mean it's a funny definition. i must admit i, i if you could stop that deliberate foul it's i mean it's better for the game if you can stop it. send them off. yeah. yeah. that's right. i mean if you're gonna do it yeah. do it, do it, do it yeah. consistently. cos, actually, the other thing about defenders hauling people down like that, you know, how many times when a forward's through one on one on a goal keeper does he score? it's not that often actually. no. i mean, okay, somebody like besty thing you want you could bet on yeah. nine times out of ten, but but even, even against the goalkeeper they fucking lose fifty percent of the, like yeah. i was saying more than fifty percent of the playing yeah, i would, yeah. yeah. yeah. and that's all just one on one on the goalkeeper. yeah. well that's what i mean, i mean, you know,th th the player could let him, could let him go really without deliberately fouling him because it's, it's gonna half the be at least a fifty fifty yeah. chance that the goalkeeper's gonna save it innit? it's fucking gotta be straight like that, i, i, i don't fucking taking off three points for a . at the start it seemed to improve the matches but it, they've just become too hectic now i think. mm. you know, there's not as much skill involved as there was. no. no, that's right. it's like the incredibly passed. the first, the first season like the football did seem to improve but it's not that's right. gonna go back now i think. united have got a strange side at the moment though oh yes. i mean i don't think you can it's alright having all these players but if you he doesn't seem they don't play. he doesn't seem to they have an idea of what he wants. cos i mean no they don't. every week he's got a different sort of format. well what's he supposed to do? giggs, semen . well he had him well i think he's gotta look at, and the team should be in with you yeah. like. he had him playing yesterday, er, but they dropped hughes. yeah i know . well you don't drop hughes for anybody! and his two subs, hughes and sharp, i mean it does rather hamstring yeah. you if anything happens to a central defender dunnit? yeah. well i don't think hughes should ever be sub like, he should be on the team. well that's right, even if he's not scoring goals he's creating so much pressure and, and yeah, he always done like. good in defence as well. yeah. that's right. well he's also summat, er i mean he's, he's one of the best at holding a ball you know fantastic shielding the ball on his own. yeah. yeah. whitbreads are here. arsenal yeah. played well. yeah. the crowd were getting at them last night. were they? the first goal was dreadful! my did you see it? they were winning three nil weren't they? yeah. did you see this goal? no. i remember seeing, but i heard fucking result on news at ten. it was a long i know. it was a it was full pass inside to two fullbacks er, for the southampton player that was running on this fullback shaded it away you know, guiding him out of it, he's running to the e sa smeichel came out to the edge of the area but he was like right on the edge as the player was coming to him, so he just let it roll a little bit further, he stopped it with his foot, the guy came and tackled him off got it instead of just picking it up with his hand, i mean he was actually in the area but like he was right on the edge and he took a step back why the fuck didn't he and stopped it with his foot. yeah. wait for the ball coming in? i tell you liverpool were really lucky cos er bristol rovers had got a penalty. mm. as long they, as long as they win the league i do i don't mind. been a long time. mind you i know. leeds are still bloody doing well though. they won three nil last week didn't they? yeah. oh every week they putting it together, scoring the goals. i think they were about a hundred and fifty to one i'm standing see if they can win the league. are they? yeah. yeah. wouldn't be a bad that actually, cos if it did yeah, they played well the year before they held their own see they've got all the they played last year didn't they? the best lads. yeah. i mean they're, they ended up about what were they, about fifth or something weren't they? yeah, last year. aha. and they bought er players didn't they? they put, you know, started to buy a few you know, like dorego and things like that. wallace not a bad buy. arsenal are playing terrible aren't they? mm. roecastle's started to play well again this yeah. it was an awful goal that united gave away weren't it? we i mean, it was only palaster in, in that half. and where the hell the fullbacks were! in wonderland. who was it who first said that they'd witnessed something? yeah. what? well you not, you liked the but erm no i never. you did. no i never. it was you or peter. who was this? no it wasn't. it weren't me. it was either you or peter. it weren't me. you then. no it weren't me. it weren't me, i never played . do , don't get , don't get me into this. oh! i dunno where he is. it weren't me. can you place a shot? turn that up! yes. please! probably go back stop. i can score your point now. no, no, that's that thing called . bull boy back stop. you're playing this. bollocks! you're a blue oyster in disguise. you're a blue boy it's meant to be a tenner. oh. nine two on aggregate. ah! what a tenner between ya? no, tenner for each. yeah. it's the spirit! no, if you only you had a fart coming. he just went or it sounds like. pa. it sounded, a little breather. pa. okay, you was all quiet until you went no, kev, no. i didn't go raargh aargh! well i don't think i did so yes you did. no i never. yes you did. no i never. you did. no. you did. no. you did. no. you did. no. you did. no. look, you've been repeating yourself again. yeah, so are you. no i ain't. yeah. i di , i ain't repeating yourself. did, you did. you did! i ain't repeating yourself. so i done alright. ha ha! so funny! what's he got playing like this. rumbled it. seven eight you've done it again . do him you wanker! joe or something. i know. half way down. sam's brother. sam's there. if sam came up to you and you ge your mil , you had millwall and sam right, rips it off right, ripped it to pieces and that, started burning it, and he give you a wimbledon shirt in return what would you do? probably do the same to his. mm. what, then you'd give him a millwall shirt? i'd give it back. i got a and my dad was going i'd kill him! your dad'd kill him and all. i know. i wouldn't. poor old bobby. he's always had to find a new friend, he don't trust me. a good friend, ah! pass! i wanna be your friend. he for a lunch. far from a friend. i wanna get you expelled. bollocks! paul . joss ran into the wind. oh shot! ha! oh a excellent boot, enough far . someone should tell joey. , but someone's already told him. oh sorry, i'm on the . whoever listens to this your mum's like fish and chips, a come slap-up. good goal. i reckon those kids are getting hooray!. oh it's on there. . oh it's too smelly at millwall. hey. i says at , arsenal !, it's not against fanny and chelsea . who's this fanny and chelsea ? oh yeah, cos i know it's wonderful . no, no, i agree. are you laughing why don't you at my feet? mm. i think you should wear those at appointments. no, my clients get a big enough giggle as it is. i don't think by your slippers. do you have anything to do with the hampton court area steven er, work-wise? well, have i been there? no, erm there's an office there isn't there? or have we got an office in hampton court? no, i don't think we have. oh. i thought we were you know, working up there. well, no, it's not general portfolio. actually, just started working for general portfolio. it is in kingston. might be. there's not one in kingston. sharon . i dunno. where d'ya meet her then? i met her from, she used to work at kirshaws. oh . probably applied the same time i did. oh. she smokes like a chimney. mm. have you ever seen anybody completely obscured by her own smoke, it's sharon. . chuck us the water would you? she's a bit of a goer as well int she? is she? isn't she? yeah but didn't she order a punch so she was drunk ? no, that was tracey. i thought tracey and sharon used to get drunk at lunchtime on a friday and have a punch up. no. only tracey would do that. our trace. ah. oh dear. oh. it's supposed to be a bit it'll stick up don't worry. no, it's ours. don't poke it martin, or else it'll . there's nothing worse than somebody poking your pudding is there? no . it smells absolutely foul. don't come and poke yours, do we? you do. she does. don't. we never, we never cook anything cos we ain't got a table. well we have but it int got any legs on. no, she must be working out of the kingston office cos we don't i would have thought so. we don't have one at hampton court. no. or hampton. su sugar. oh. there you go. so how are you susan? i'm not very well. aren't you? you got this cold thing everybody she's fluey. else has got? she's fluey. yeah. mm. this one mine? one of these days, i live in hope for a bug going round that everybody else has, but not me. i've always got the one, i'm always the one saying to you fiddle, everyone seems to have that yeah. including me. tt. i've got a sore throat and a bit of a cough. and i do feel genuinely rough. and you ache, don't you? i ache from here to the top. i think it sounds like flu. i had a thumping headache yesterday. but that seems to have gone now. mm. i've put stiff neck as well? yeah. ooh yeah. oh here's some marmite crisps if you want any? no? okay. be like that. well erm i was absolutely freezing cold. these always hit me. it sounds awfully familiar i'm afraid. mm. so i had a bath and i thought it'd warm me up but i was, i was freezing weren't i? yeah. and i had to get the old erm quilt down. mm mm. i don't believe i'm bad all week. not usually this bad with a cold. i mean, i've been off college and stuff just feeling really tired yeah. all the time. it's the . alright. i mean, normally i just keep going, you know, and sort of don't, but i've been so aching so much that it's terrible! yes. is that my cup? yes. i think. yeah. i wonder if we could get away with telling my mum that we'll go away for christmas and new year. why, you going away? well she's going away anyway. oh yes you is she? you're going to the lake district aren't you? yep. yeah. we've got it booked. have you? yup. aha. oh jolly good! we have. we'll be taking i hate to tell you this but the er the forecast for the weather is pretty awful this year. snow? lots of it. i think we're gonna have a hard winter this year. hello! hello. hello . alright? d'ya win or lose? hi! ah! where's jasmine? hello. hello my plant. hello. she's gone upstairs. tell her i said hello. they seem to be downstairs. she hi she seems to be . hello sweetheart! hello! whoop woo woo! mayhem! yes i thought we were gonna get snowed in up there. hello! well i ra when are you going up then? twenty seventh. the day after boxing day. you woo woo! yeah. woo! woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo! woo, woo, woo! the fact that you don't mind talking about it. yes. yes there's always the maybe perhaps the monday after christmas, and then coming back the monday after. and i'll ask maybe you could connect the tape to the television and then have a film on and just leave it running. so the ac that's the actual script. i think it'll be fairly obvious somehow. what's that? did you win or lose? not a lot. lost. you lost? where was it today? mm dear. ah no, racing, ah, it's cos i bought a horse, that's why oh! erm you might have lost a lot. no i i, er have you been racing today? no i backed the first winner today and that got me out of trouble. er, don't give her those. why? give her a brick . no, she actually just, i haven't seen for a long time so she can have one of these. no, but that's excessively for her. it's not cos she only gets a little bit. where's jussy? dunno. jussy! jussy man ! i'll put them away in the fridge for you. jussy man. how are your horses nowadays? they're fine thanks. yeah, very well. you been down to see them recently? no, cos i've been away for a couple of days. mm mm. she has been down in dorset . i always go back what do you mean he gets his ? does that one, that i'm not quite so much of the . yeah, but er . oh he's got plenty of them. yeah. feeling like the end of the world. death warmed up. mm. how's ? not bad. but it's bloody cold out there isn't it? i know, it's a bit nip. cor! bit of a frosty one. bit of a, bit of a sad day though isn't it? lovely, sunny oh yeah. same again tomorrow, so they say. i like starting off the day with a ten mile run followed by i like this one. hot chocolate two rounds of toast and that one at erm and a piece of er, ginger cake. stopped at the tea rooms after completely over the top ordering. all the all this food started turning off . completely, the chocolate, hot chocolate with bloody whipped cream on the top and everything. god! i wish i'd cycled six miles home! so you worked it all off again. i don't think so. not in, not in sixteen miles. i should think you probably just about got through the toast possibly. i've torn off my bit. i tipped . yes. did you er make that? or did you yeah, i don't do, i don't do . want to go upstairs and sit down? oh. i will. the food's not far off is it? well we'll go upstairs and eat. shall we go upsta are we gonna eat upstairs? yeah. can do. whenever. whatever. whenever, whatever we feel like really. done? we're not far off now. what's this in there? in the oven steven? that is the . that's the starter. chicken. frederick! yes? this dog's standing here again? is he? yeah. yes. . yes, but i must admit i'll sort him out. i'll see what we're gonna do when the dinner comes. very thinly sliced. oh! we haven't done the mush kitty! very thin, and very thinly sliced. you haven't done the mushrooms ! oh! strewth! quick! there you go. sa say it. we always put mushrooms in it. and erm extremely thinly sliced. yeah. we always put these, just forgotten to do them. oh. you'll have to do them cut them thin otherwise they won't cook in time. oh won't they? yeah. what? oh you're three and half millimetres. you're though martin. sorry? grab a knife then martin? i gotta wash them first. okay, we need to wash them but it doesn't matter too much does it? i've got to no. scrub them haven't i? well it is, i wrote it down when we were on the list wash her hair. and steve put it on top of here. shampoo and rinse. look martin, those mushrooms . what, that list i gave you earlier on? yes. i don't think you could argue with that. the mushrooms . right then take like if you're gonna be happy in this household test the finger you are they just oh god, they're much bigger than we had already. so how many are you doing? well it's the thought that counts. oh! well that's enough. mm mm. that's quite a little gadget isn't it? where d'ya put excuse me! saves gunging the old erm sweet, no less. one very small knife for slicing the mushrooms. deep emancipation. i'm busy. well he's gonna pay me back tomorrow. oh. actually they're quite clean these mushrooms. how's the business been recently? erm, not too bad. i don't know how that one got in there. yeah, not too bad. could be better? could be worse? well, it can always be better can't it? it is thing was i knew he'd forgotten something. i was just looking for something. you see, i could tell these things. well martin, joe, er er martin just said erm what would look nicer in there are some erm some mushrooms, and i looked and i thought, well we always do mushrooms in you stupid boy! there. there should be mushrooms in there. and lo and behold there isn't. come on, chop chop! did you put in those thingies? yes. nice hat! keeps you warm, yeah? that's the only thing. perhaps i could do with another one. how are you thierry darling? i'm alright thanks. you? okay. i heard you were in the er the bath weren't you? i was. yes. well and truly in the bath. in the triathlon? yes. second out the water or something? yes. first, first . where did you finish? not second. no. no, i was about twenty sixth from the end actually, but how many? twenty sixth. wasn't bad, and i finished. that's good. that's pretty good which is alright twenty sixth. considering it was fairly considering it's pretty er cos only about ten men finished in front of you or something? yes. oh no, there were more than that. i was twenty sixth in the women's, not overall. still, that's good. oh right. so i had to put up with the, i had a really shitty cycle and then, my run was, you know okay well you probably for me, but you probably tried hardest in your swim didn't you? well i don't think i did really, i just wasn't very sharp really. i, well i know you have days where you just you feel alright had you but then prepared alright? you just go across, not really. cos then, the worlds right. were only a month before so i sort of war wound down a bit, so yeah. i mean, i wasn't really feeling, you know when some, sometimes you know you're gonna do really well and sometimes you think, mm mm er er yeah. not really terribly prepared for pass today. this one. and you feel alright but people just go shh ooh ooh past you. that's yeah. life really. just gotta do what you can really haven't you? absolutely. yeah. i'm just gonna put an extra layer on. i'm not that's okay. gonna say, that's alright. i was just i wouldn't be bothered anyway. no you probably wouldn't actually . you know me. oh god ! what? in fact, jon 's yeah. here. i haven't seen him for ages. well i haven't either. whose lager's that? i mean whose thingie? it's mine, i was just gonna give it to you. is it? well in that, actually i'll come and sit on it and then i can fondle jon's knees while i'm there. i'm not speaking to you, not with that on. you don't have to say anything. who's got the best knee then? what? oh well erm different quality of knees really. you're joking! mine's all bone. that's what i mean, you know, depends bony knees. depends what turns you on really. you never know i might be are you sure because erm when we were away er james took some photographs yeah. and i saw just how bony my legs were. were in shorts. yeah. yeah. ooh! vegetables! ah that's alright. i got terri i mean, honestly er i mean people are so well that's a point, speaking of photos can i have the ones you took at ? the ones of me. please. i mean, i realize you've probably got them pinned up by your bed, but ah, i've made them up into poster size. yeah. get three d ones made up. are you, are you coming to that dinner? no i'm not. you're not? no. yeah i know. martin won't let me come cos he says it's too expensive. so, when is it anyway? oh probably the er er it's worse than i do sometimes. no, november the twenty something. oh great! that's very helpful. yeah, i dunno why, i sort of oh yes well, i assumed we were going and then he said it was too expensive. and then, he sort of thought well funny sell my body. i don't know. i dunno. it's something like twenty quid each. that could take me ages to earn. what d'ya do? depending who i'm selling my body to. i'm a student so i haven't got any money. but, judging by how crap the christmas dinner was i'm not really particularly tempted, but tell him you want to go. that's what we'll do anyway. will you dance with me if i come? what? yes. that means i will. yes. okay. as long as it's slow. oh, alright then. sounds good to me. you're warned though that's worth i've got two left feet. that's worth twenty quid. that's alright, if you tread on my feet i'll just pick you up and carry you then. yeah, that's true. and put you over my put you over my shoulder . you probably could. a fireman's lift then. oh dear. and we can disappear outside and everyone'll be talking. oh yeah! absolutely. you'll have to deal with martin though. can you run faster than him? erm no, i can't even run for a bus. actually probably wouldn't, probably wouldn't be very bothered actually. i'll just have my bike outside and quickly get on. i should. yeah. oh dear. that erm mark rang up oh rang us up yesterday. hello it's mark from the tri-club. i thought mark from the tri-club, mark, who the hell is mark? who from the tri-club? well i didn't even, well he didn't even occur to me actually i must admit. excuse me a minute. but er going to the loo are we? alright then. can you bring me a cup of tea back? one sugar please. erm yeah, so i had this i had thi yeah i had this long conversation not knowing who the hell he so i said well are you going, i was thinking kingfisher, so i thought well, i said are you going training tomorrow night? he said training? what training? i said well, you know, and i thought it could be somebody here as well. let's face it, i made a complete prat of myself. and then martin, i sa i still couldn't think who it was. martin came home and said oh is that mark fro mark from woking? i thought,ah, ha ! the wrong bloody number. oops! yeah. but honestly, how stupid! it could, could it not be anybody? well i know. god! could have been a if i didn't know any attractive marks tri-club oh, so you di so i thought it's a fairly safe bet. i mean if it ha if somebody had said it was danny from the tri-club i would have had a i would have been in there, you know. oh. just on the off chance. just on the off chance it was that danny. ha! i mean, how stupid to ring and say it's mark. yes. i mean, that's like ringing up and saying it's jon really isn't it? but i do ring. you do ri well we know you well enough to know your voice though. it's the bear. yeah. absolutely. who's that girl? yeah, that's sarah . she's not as sexy as me is she? it's what you call in fact i'm not even sure it was female then . not that i'm insecure or anything. it's alright, you can try and . oh dear. how's nat? fine. oh oh! gone to the cinema tonight or summat. eh? gone to the cinema oh oh. with the girls from work. oh that's nice. where, what have they gone to see, d'ya know? ah she did say. oh oh! i take so much interest in her. yes dear. that's nice. see you later. bye! oh god ! where's thierry with my bloody cup of tea? well do you want any while i was in there? just bringing his now. i was thinking of going up for something myself, but i really can't be bothered to move actually. fifty miles for you? yeah, that's what we normally do. is it? what's thierry supposed to do, about fifty six? seventy five seventy five? is the total . oh, including your twenty including, yeah. something's definitely burning. is it twenty five to ten when you go past the door . you lazy bugger! i said i can't be bothered to get up. that's alright, i'll let you drive me all the way round once so, he owes me a quid you see. oh. i see pay day's started. yeah. who's left their hat on the fire top ? i told you something's, i told you something was burning. after that last place in there . can you smell it? yes. oh! ,,thank you very much thierry. you're a star. i had erm you had to get up, out of bed of sundays? oh! bloody hell! men! eh! yeah. i was, i was quietly groaning away thinking oh god it's quarter to eight thank god i haven't gotta get up. ten minutes later, wurgh, can you tap on the door. can you push the van please? pushing an old van, i mean i ask you! yeah. yeah. stuck at the bottom of the hill . a ho how he thought i was going to move it i don't know. and then, and then first he, first he scratched it. yeah. and then, ten minutes later, i got a puncture, can you drive me out there? tt! cor dear! some people, eh? what car have you got? peugeot. peugeot two o five. peggy the peugeot. pretty nice. mm mm. oh god! i've been so thirsty for the last hour, i couldn't be bothered to go and find a drink. i've never ever been at college after six o'clock, it was very exciting. how old's he? six? twelve? how old is he? a bit young. i thought you said he was fourteen. a bit young for me. even for me, eh? mm. even for a little baby like you. i know. the youngest, the youngest below me i've ever gone for is three years younger. well that was that was fairly excessive. and that was when you were six. god he was sexy! no, it was when about about seventeen and he was fourteen. god he was fabulous! the best kisser i've ever met. what do you mean? you're a nympho on the quiet aren't you really? you are aren't you ? on the quiet whore. whoever types this up is gonna have fun aren't they? mm? whoever types this up's gonna have fun. i sure might like to . let's go and see oh good! how is the old studies going? oh okay. boring really. actually erm i'm not really into it at the moment because i can't sort of make myself get in there, you know? miles away. mm. i'm just too used to being lazy really. i can't cope. yeah i, i know how you feel mine's mine's . do you have write-ups and lots of work ? oh oh! they're not like that all the time. it's just been a bit of a surge once a month. just once a month? yeah. just for a week every month and go a bit over the top. once a month . hero! what time's this matey turning up? what matey? your ? or have you got it already? no, we gotta go down to kingfisher and get it. we're gonna be late home. we're gonna be late home. mm mm. did she tell you what her luxury was while you were away? sitting up painting her nails at midnight, in bed. she said it was just wonderful not having anybody shouting at her to turn the light off. mm mm. oh dear. i said my luxury when martin was out was eating half a very large cream cake. and ho drinking half a bottle of wine. we didn't quite decide which was more the . kitty, what are you doing sunday? are you gonna go into london? what do you want me to do then? good question. what? are you with martin? eleven o'clock. probably. if it involved marshalling, definitely. well you can stand up. are you waiting? yeah. well you i've gotta stand up just now. you're gonna stand on my foot in a minute then i'm gonna kick you in the bollocks with the other foot! ooh! ooh ooh ooh ! oh that's good . it was a thingie reaction yeah. isn't it? reflex. yeah . if i sit here, if i sit very still he'll forget about me. he'll come this way in a minute. have you ever had that done it's so bizarre, i tell you. what, being kicked in the bollocks or no reflexes? yes. been kicked in, in the bollocks. you get it done when you go to the doctors don't you? yeah. it's bizarre cos it's like you haven't got control. you feel like a puppet . oh blimey! do you think i might just find anybody here who'd like a really good snog? not with that cold, no. well it's not infectious any more. well i would love to. i think martin might get a bit upset. well he doesn't wanna bloody snog! he's off kissing. he doesn't like kissing, he noticed that after two years. i don't really like kissing very much. oh for god's sake! now you tell me! sex is so much better. ah? eh? swallow, swallow. no it's not! it is. not if you try hard. vastly overrated i'm afraid. yeah? mm? it's vastly overrated. and it's hard just to get all the way up. yeah. oh yeah? what are we yeah, the . come on then. he's not looking. it was the only time i've worn four layers on the top in a race. yeah. and it was the full kit, you know. it was oh yeah. er it was mind you, that's what they all say though. yeah? are you cold? are you wanting me to warm you up ? want my jumper? mm? do you want my jumper? haven't you got your ? tt! oh! i'm really cold. still i'll survive. i know. i'll warm you up. there's still something there yo there's still something there you can't be that cold. go on. do your natural duties. gosh! ha! the end of the worlds, you know how cold it was there, and we were all going down the finish tunnel you just, all of the blokes you just thought there's only three of the blokes . there's nothing there! it's gone! it's gone! well there's only fifteen altogether . not that, not that i look at that sort of thing on a regular basis so they go well when they're just standing there in a vest and shorts then there isn't much else to look at is there, really? yeah. then yo it was saturday or sunday? what? are you twenty fourth. twenty fourth, is it? well that's why doug's going round asking about sunday is it? if you are going it's best to where is it? women in, she's gonna win women's categories. where is it and what is it? isn't there one in november or something? you're shivering! is that just cos you've got your leg like that or is the other one shaking? sorry, that one's shaking cos you've got it tucked up, cos i'm touching you isn't it? yeah. a bit eh? excited. you like coming along here don't you? i do. what's this? i like touching jon's leg. yes. are you recording? don't! get off! she's taping it all. yeah, i'm doing a local project. but so far we've had erm, we've had who likes kissing and who doesn't. sex is better with jon cos he does it better. and i'm a nymphomaniac. it sounded quite good to me. all good clean stuff. i know. i've gotta hand it in on friday so i'm getting a bit desperate. better not mention i shave my legs on oh no! on monday. yesterday . yes, the kinkier the better really, you know. i'd like to know where you're supposed to stop. what d'ya mean? which particular section of the conversation are we talking about? dunno. where you're supposed to stop jon shaving your legs up to. oh right. jon obviously doesn't know where to stop. it's painful. if he's that good. you should u use immac it's less painful. sorry? use immac it's less painful. immac? for your legs. immac? evil smelling pink stuff that you put all over your legs and wax? leave it. no, no, no. and then you leave it nitromorse for legs. then you leave it for erm five minutes and then all your hairs drop out and then you, then you just wipe them off. it's great. i'd be a it's quite a good chat up line. get a girl to do it for you. yeah. i, i've often had that fantasy actually. i think most girls have a fantasy about waxing some blokes legs. . oh! ooh er! baby! martin has his waxed. he was very brave. no one would wax mine. really? not many places will wax men's legs. i dunno why, but in a way yeah, gill can do it. the sports centre'll do it. it's yours. you're making me feel really guilty. stop it! i'll be afraid that they can see my tummy. no! you can't, you can't see, you can't you could cover your legs with it though a bit. couldn't you? yes, well keep your pants on, that's all i can say. what are you doing? what did you say you were doing sunday? i thought you might have forgotten about me doug. no. i don't know. what am i doing? has martin said what i'm doing already? and where is it? no, well martin looked through the diary. where is it? it's at potter street. you're going as well are you? what's that? this thing on sunday? wahey! no i'm gonna watch my wife on the hillside . oh i see. i thought she was yeah. going too. can you not er bring her along afterwards? she'll be really chuffed . erm, i don't know what i'm doing actually. that's very helpful of me isn't it? i shall ask martin how's it going doug? when it gets a bit nearer. pardon? how's it going? well, it's not very good actually. but i still have to put some of the blinds out again. what happened to the one i did last year? the last time i did you put me on blind bends. did i? and then said afterwards, i put you there cos they stop for women and not men. so i hey? had to throw myself in front of a speeding car! stop! ha aargh aargh! the legs . you trod on my bloody foot! at least i wasn't wearing a stilettos. true. that's the one where i marshalled with you last year actually wasn't it? yeah that's right. that's right. and you came, you came and tied his dog to the back of my car. yeah. they're gonna and the run away with it ! and then wrote himself a note to remind himself to untie the blooming thing. oh yes . dear doug don't forget to untie the dog. and you can just imagine him rid you can. driving away with it absolutely. woof! nicely then followed the car. yeah, true. it's easy. i don't . but then you start to overtake him seventy miles an hour or so. dog's yapping. yeah. well i reckon that erm andy ought to sort mine out. and he's rowing with that blonde chick. and you're so jealous? i am. oh well you took apologize. but do you know who's following on from cos i'd take it upon myself seems reasonable ian. aye. well just for the tape purposes i'm not actually from northumberland. i'm i'm from the north east if that's good enough you're from darlington or somewhere. that's darlington yeah, on the that's the deep south thought innit? durham durham stroke yorkshire border. so i'm not northumberland . erm we haven't i don't think got minutes of the previous, i don't think we were keeping minutes of these meetings. mm. erm but now that we're getting or going to get presumably more involved in union matters it might be advantageous if we could have a minute taker. er lisa's there. don't know whether she's i'm just putting a t-shirt on. a volunteer for taking and compiling of the minutes and producing of them. would it be handy er to, to reproduce to give to anybody who either say nalgo or nupe who was discussing them. well i think it's going to be essential isn't it? we're going to be meeting more regularly in the next er few month and we want to know what i think, yeah we discussed at the previous meeting. thr through you chairman i think also it's erm it would, er apart from it being er erm a minute for, for us here erm in relation to, you know, what we're looking to er to er apply, er it also would be useful er in relation to the regional liaison group er of the tripartite er unison unions erm so as to er actually circulate it to them and that's, that tends to be made up of of er officers, full time officers er and, and er the three kingpins that's gill and er phil as well so it er it lets them know er as a progress report yeah that's right. what, what, what, what you're, what we're doing erm and hopefully seek their support on, on some areas that literally falls within the regional er liaison group's remit anyway. so does that mean you are volunteering lisa? well i thought it was done like the army, army volunteer line so let's get on let's get on with the business. so you, you've now become secretary of the northumberland liaison group. do i get paid? no. you don't get any to do it. right. okay. well you, you're on that regional liaison group in fact then yes i am, yeah. lisa so you're, you're the natural person yeah. oh thank you don, it's really good. very well i think what we'll, she'll have to do erm what we'll have to do, i, i'll put this attendance put an i was just attendance sheet yeah i've you've got one have you? good. er good, from memory of the previous meeting, there, one of the items i recall at er i was left to do was contact the our education officer erm namely keith er to see if er a one day seminar or a one day school or whatever you'd like to call it, er could be held prior to the, the ballot. well i've had a word with keith and he will be available and, and very willing to do a one day seminar of that nature basically on why unison how we should go about convincing the, the membership at large how we should er conduct the free ballot campaign as it were. er he will be quite will willing and happy to do that on behalf of the three organizations erm here in county hall one day in the first week in october well any day barring thursday of that week. so we're in your hands as to what date you would prefer to hold it and who we would want to invite. erm probably a larger group than those assembled here. so i have undertook to do that, i've done it and er i mean it's up to you as to which date you choose. erm we're talking about week commencing the fifth, fifth of october. so it could either be fifth, sixth, seventh or ninth what's the fifth? what day is it er offhand? er monday the fifth of october. but i would suggest er wednesday the seventh. i don't know whether anybody would disagree with that. of october? mm. wednesday the seventh. would that be everybody happy with that date? it's the feast of yom or whatever way you pronounce it, would you be having that at county hall ? yes. because i think you'll have to check availabilities for accommodation in here before you made a decision because the a firm date? mm. yeah because the erm it's very difficult to get rooms at the minute. right. well can, can we leave it that erm well i mean i'll check now if you want can you? cos oh that, that would be that would wouldn't it? that would be very useful. chairman could i just ask as the minute taker to er clarify the, the remit of the er educational seminar? yeah. er any day ba barring thursday the eighth. er the remit wednesdays between now and christmas. i, i've just suggested wednesday, it could be any day now no i'm saying that it's, it's between now and christmas wednesdays, gotta keep them clear. oh that's right, aye, yeah. so you're you're that's right i'm a bit dodgy on a wednesday, yeah. anyway we'll see see what date see the availability of rooms and then we'll make a firm decision. the remit with regard to the er one day seminar, it was suggested at the last meeting er that it would be useful if the activists of the free union actually got together held a one day seminar or training course whatever terminology you like to put on it er to actually educate ourselves on how we should be conducting the campaign basically. erm how we would go about going outside into the workplaces in the various parts of the county convincing the members er to vote yes. erm what kind of publicity material we require, and we'll come on to that later because we did elect a publicity sub group i remember. erm and how we would generally distribute all this stuff that we're going to get from the respective head offices, which is now filtering into our office, we've got leaflets er car stickers question and answer booklets, that kind of stuff. er and obviously if we've got thousands of those coming to each three regional offices we've got to find some method of distributing them, we don't want them left in the office do we? so i think the, the whole idea of the, the seminar was to kind of basically get ourselves organized but have it in a kind of er seminar format. does that yes. that's about the remit isn't it? as far as i recall from the last meeting. er that i think the intention if i recall correctly was to give er stewards yeah as the key people aha yes the the sort of arguments really aha for, for er cos they're, they're the key people that in of workplaces and getting the arguments across. erm well our branch secretaries are, are the main people who pass on to stewards, who would in turn pass all this literature and things like that on, on the nupe side yeah. as far as we're concerned. we, we distributed cos we're lucky we've just got schools in and around you know? i mean the members who mm. i think a as far as this group is concerned it will be up to each respective union, er i think of who they invited to that seminar. i think, i mean some unions might want the branch secretaries but some might want all branch officials, some might want all shop stewards or senior shop stewards or convenors or whatever terminology we have, have in the respective unions for, for their positions. i mean i think as far as nupe's concerned we would want our branch secretaries or a branch official and probably senior senior shop stewards i would think. yeah wouldn't we? ? yeah. you know? er cos we're talking about, you see we're talking about nine branches aren't we in er northumberland? far flung throughout the county as it were. so from our point of view, certainly from nupe's point of view it would be a good thing. in fact if we weren't doing it as a unison group we'd probably do it ourselves anyway because of the fact that we've got nine separate branches and we'd want to have a bit of erm common, common strategy if you like between the branches anyway. erm chairman could i just ask a question in relation to that? er we're talking about er for example er nupe have nine branches erm i i is that all local authority, health service er and the, the er educational they're all well no we're just talking purely and simply about local authority here. just local authority? yeah. right. i just wanted to clarify that. basically our branches are based on the district but with a slight variation or two, not exactly district . the only thing that's different with the branches is the health segment. the health? yeah, well we're not concerned with the health yeah. i mean the health different completely but the rest, everybody's incorporated, each branch to what area they are. irrespective of what they work at. mm. i thi i think they're, the the nalgo cohse and nupe health branches are making their own arrangements in northumberland as far as i know. they're not part of this liaison group. so they'll be doing something similar i should imagine er we we're, we're, we'd be likely to invite all of our stewards really i think from the point of view, the county branch up to now with these meetings it's just been our county branch er that's been mhm well the county branch initiation er but i think i'd be inclined also to spread that to our six district branches as well. because our organization is entirely employer based. er you know, one in each of the six districts at the county branch. yeah. and i, i, i'd be inclined from point of view to invite all of our stewards, not just in the county, but in all the district branches as well. yeah. to make it fair can i make it fair mr chairman that erm obviously with all ours being mainly caretakers, it would only be fair to, to the actual caretaker erm person who looks after caretaking, to only invite cos otherwise you've gotta get stand in for school which will cause problems. yeah. say four or five people come to that meeting mm from one area, you'd have to find four or five caretakers, which is impossible. i mean ah well schools have still got to be covered. that'll be the next hurdle, i mean we haven't got to that hurdle. no i'm just saying though it's nor the hurdle of getting paid release. i hoping we'll will get it aha. well there's no problem without any problem but you never know, do you? he's nodding, we, we might not get it. can i ask question chairman? yes what is the situation with, i know they're private now, but er the situation with the river authorities, the water authorities? cos we have a tremendous lot of nupe members. not er not so many now but it's er we've still got members but i mean we well we're you know all about that you're the front yes i, yes i know all about that front runner erm but i mean er all i know about from the nupe point of view is that since the kind of can we call it, semi, semi de-recognition? or can we call it totally de-recognition? mm. erm er our membership slid somewhat and we haven't got a very big membership in er water now. we've got a hundred members well er in the river's we we've got a rivers authority branch which is well a hundred and twenty, hundred and thirty strong that's not a northumberland branch, it stretches from the tweed to the humber i think but yeah certainly the tees. so the, the water membership wouldn't concern us here. so it wouldn't involve us, that's right yeah. no i think we should stick to local government branches in the county of northumberland. and you know i think if we can, that's a big enough task for us to take on here. oh yes i appreciate but i were just wondering what branches they were in, you've explained that, that . so it's like a national branch, forget it. as far we're concerned this day's seminar that we're organizing, it will be purely and simply local government branches of the three organized regions in northumberland. that's it. is that? that's it, we won't widen it anywhere beyond that. and i think we it was poin pointed out that we've got enough to do er sorting out the local government situation in northumberland and i don't disturb the other other industries as it were. did we get a date? the only room available is this one on friday the ninth. of october? yes. well it's, it's going to need th this size of room anyway i should imagine oh if everybody we invite turns up. mm. friday the ninth. everybody happy with that? no, sorry can't make it. can't make friday the ninth. friday the ninth. well at? at ten a m. ten a m. ten till four? that's a full day's work ten till four council chamber what time, ten to what? ten a m till four. need access to the room before that? will we need access? mm. well only for the tutor to come in with his er overhead projector or whatever he's got. i'll try and get time for that. would we need, we'd also need some kind of refreshments and er we'll have to make a decision about lunch. can i put in excellent restaurant that exists right here in county yes. yes exactly er no i mean normally when most organizations when they call members together for a seminar, or a training course provide subsistence for lunch and we usually have tea and coffee don't we? could i, could i just raise an issue are we going to have that? erm in, i mean obviously there's gonna be some of our some of our members i mean if i identify one ros from, from cohse, but i daresay other, other unions er have erm have one or two members who actually work night duty. and ros was just saying i mean sh on that, on that friday she's due to be in work on that friday night and it comes on a day she'll paid time off aspect. erm she's due in at work on that friday night er we've encountered problems before whereby we've asked for i e the friday night off because there's been an educational seminar on on the day as it were er and that, that's been, that's been de er refused. refused as it were. so i mean in the past it's been refused? yeah. yeah. yes. that, that might be a problem area particularly where we've got reps who work night well who work nights. it'll, it'll apply to nights and days that won't it? i mean we might find that we've got a problem with members generally getting paid i'll be astonished if we get paid time off for this. our, we haven't got a problem . as long as we can possibly get someone to replace them with. yeah somebody trustworthy to replace them or erm they will allow so many in actually erm be off at one given time. i think yeah. but erm i, i think chairman in relation to the time off, i think erm i think that's, that's one thing we need to as area organizers, to actually try and er clarify i thought er as soon as possible. i thought this was supposed to be i thought this was at the last meeting? no all, all that, all that was going to be done was to see about as far as i'm aware, the feasibility of get getting one of the education officers and one of the to actually put a course on. details of when and where will be discussed at the next meeting as far as i ah in my notes here i've got paid leave oh but there, there is an agreement actually er with employers stating that they, they will give time off for erm that's what training courses. but for training courses and, and, and meetings. er they recognize the unions so the ,the ,they there is an agreement yeah. well, well i if yeah but if they're if they're, if they're at work during that period of time aha? my argument is i'm not at work between the hours of ten to four. no. no that's a point. i start work at night yeah. and i'll be you won't be qualified for paid time off. well what's, what's your gaffer like? is he sympathetic or is he ? yeah. well th they follow the rules laid down by er mm i mean it, we may find yet, we don't know we haven't applied, we, cos the reason that we haven't applied cos we didn't know until today exactly who we were going to invite and when we were going to hold it er so it would be ludicrous to apply for time off when you didn't even know the date you were holding it and who you were going to invite. erm so, and we will do that now but i mean it may transpire that the employer might say no to paid time off er for the people who are on days as, as well as er and i would guess then we would have to switch it to a, a saturday. if, i mean if we can only, if we can only invite the, the people that are he i mean the, they allow us release for this type of meeting mind you. so i can't see why they shouldn't allow but er er sorry i mean i'm, i don't deliberately want to labour the point in relation to the night staff, right? but then the same problem applies because you'll have had the night staff working all day friday night, come off duty about seven, eight o'clock in the morning. erm they're gonna be bushed yeah. well i to say the least. well personally i've, i've never had a problem getting members who are on nights their night off to go on a training course, never. well all i'm saying is mr chairman is because they've always said it's exactly the same as a day worker and yes you have either the shift off before the night shift off before you go on the course or the one after. i think with regard to er i mean the, the general rule of things with regard to educational er issues and time off for them, erm they tend to be let's say reasonable er about it er but that's been literally on educational issues. i think the subject matter of this seminar is slightly away from that and therefore we may we may find some er some er problems in that. i mean then we might not. all, all i'm saying is that we need to, before we literally start dotting i's and crossing t's in any literal sense is to sussed out whether that's gonna, whether they're going to be receptive to the subject matter. i can't see the problem here. you see the, the employees recognize the unions, they ask, they join the unions right? and wh whether it's nupe, cohse erm erm nalgo it is a union unison which will be one if it, if it comes about. now if they recognize the unions it doesn't matter which one it is, they didn't erm differentiate between any unions do they? mm. i mean they recognize cohse, they recognize nupe nalgo they've got to recognize unison. because it's, it's the i think, i think the point ronnie was making before was that er there is an agreement for shop stewards to have paid release to attend training courses. that is agreed isn't it? aye. aye. somebody nodded and s that way and said it wasn't agreed but er it is actually anybody who's going on a bona fide training course organized by their respective union, the t u c er a local college or whatever, a shop, a shop registered shop steward does get paid release for that er training. so what we've got to say to the county council i would suggest is that this is a training course similar to those we always got release for branch officials and shop stewards so why should you turn your nose up at this training course? i think in the past the, the response from the county council would be that it wasn't directly related to industrial relations. because we, we had this when, when we carried out a political fund ballot erm and we asked for time off for stewards to go and talk to members and we asked for time off for a seminar, for a one day seminar. and which we, we weren't granted the time off, we were granted time off without pay but not paid leave. yeah. well if we were granted time off without pay then, which is, this is a distinct possibility yeah, er would the respective unions present here be reimbursing their members for loss of earnings? well it's, it's for their benefit in, in the long run. i mean we're not doing it for our own good. are we? would do that? i, i s i can't, i can't make that decision. oh. i'd have to, i'd have to erm i'd have to raise it er and i think to be quite honest the er i mean fortunately as i said earlier on mr chairman there is a regional liaison group meeting on, on monday er and i have a captive audience of three budget holders, doug gill and phil, erm and raise this with them. er and obviously we'll, we'll we'll get the response erm a a as it were but erm that's something i couldn't, i couldn't answer at this particular time. mm. it's a last resort but then again we might not need it but if we do well it looks as if what we're doing now, we're having a discussion, we're like counting chickens before they're hatched, we haven't erm actually had a refusal. we haven't even applied yet er for, for release. er we've got one month in which to do it basically erm so what i would suggest is that the officers of the three unions represented here apply for paid release first of all to or, presumably it will be geoff the chief personnel officer. erm whether we want to add something on to the agenda that would make it more acceptable to them like health and safety or whatever. and that local government finances one of getting round er the problem we seem to have. you know you can, you can work a bit of a flanker and put something on that's more or less acceptable to them. we could say, we could entitle it industrial relations in northumberland? yeah. changes in their industrial relation's seat in the county. changes. mm, changes changes. i think with regard to that mr chairman if, if, if local representatives there's a hand up at are going to actually apply, sorry there's a ha hand up at the back. yeah i mean you, you could do that. i mean i, i, i think that's a good tactical ploy even though it's tongue in cheek. the only other difficulty that you've, you've got a need to know what sort of numbers we're talking about. i mean are you talking about a hundred and fifty? which is i think the capacity of this room. no because it's all going to come out of their budget isn't it? it's, i mean they're, okay you're applying from three different standpoints but it's coming out of one well budgetholder's erm kitty. i think, you know, you say you've got a month, i think you're gonna need also to try and find out from your membership as to whether in fact they're prepared to turn up on a saturday as well. because i think you could, you could come back here in three weeks time and find that you, you've got, you're not gonna get time off on a friday, you haven't got enough and then you're going to have to start all over again. mm. ah. so i think you've, both those questions have gotta be addressed by the,the unions that the s , that the, the second one in terms of turning up on a saturday. mr chairman the, certainly with they'd still have a problem with a friday night. time off. because if you work friday night you know they're not going to come in on mm the saturday are they? realistically are we looking at sunday? rather than saturday. well there's, no i mean surely the same will apply on a sunday? i mean night workers situation so friday night's not your normal i don't think we'd get many members turning up on sunday. no. well let's stick to friday then and let's well let's let's chairman. two things. firstly nupe has never had difficulty with northumberland county council getting time off for anyone. no. in all the years, and i've been it's secretary now for fifteen years and i haven't had any trouble. and neither has my stewards. dennis years ago did a deal with by we had so many days a year and any extra you applied for them, there was never any trouble. and the second issue is in my experience if you have a seven hour on a saturday or a sunday you get a poor turn out. you get no-one always been the same, so if we're gonna do this, let's do it right, let's have it through the week. yeah. i think, i think yes, i think the consensus is that we hold it on friday the ninth erm and we're going to apply, the three full time officers will apply for those in their organization that they want to attend, apply for paid release. the three officers will agree the terminology of the request. you know, industrial relations or whatever is going to be on the agenda. er it's not just a unison liaison seminar. er we, we'll agree that between the three of us and make sure we have the exact wording, cos we wouldn't want three three subjects would we? well just, can i just remind you that the request for paid time will need to go to seven authorities in the county. they couldn't go to central personnel? no, no. there are six district councils in the county and we're proposing to invite our own oh yes district councils, oh yes. district branches to, to send people as well. er i, i think the, the way the request is presented to northumberland might be different to the way it's presented in or tynedale or somewhere like that. er i'd prefer to tailor it maybe to er suit each employer and to ask permission from er the other six branches as well first. mm. well can we but er er going beyond that, i think it would be wise for us to assume that we will not get paid time off for this even if we do attempt to disguise it as something else. and you know i'd prefer not to do that. i, i think that we should assume that we would not get paid time. er i think we should also assume that the regional er budgetholders will not make a contribution to any costs we might incur cos i don't think any budget they'll have will be intended to cater for er you know, paying people's wages for them getting unpaid time off. i think it will be intended for things other than that. and as somebody mentioned earlier, again i think it would be wise to, was it steve? to, to make contingency plans to hold it on a day when we don't need the cooperation of the employers in terms of time off er are we all agreed then we'll put down that there's a third can i just point out though you see this, the difference between nupe and nalgo and that, we haven't got a problem. with time off? we definitely have not got a problem. cos we, we will get it, we know we will cos it's an agreement you see. your only problem it seems is erm you're not sure whether you're gonna get paid or time off or not. you know, all this is i mean we've got a month actually which is a good thing but erm surely you must have some sort of agreements with the union and your and we have we have an agreement relating to time off and time off with pay. mhm. and our agreement does not provide us for time off with pay for an event such as this. and yet they recognize unions and they ask you to apply your, er to yourself. and you're trying to amalgamate all the unions together to make it easier for them. they're not prepared to er to make allowances for that?disgraceful. the agreements that we have will not provide us with time off with pay for this purpose. well i appreciate what you're saying but your agreement may be different from ours aye aye but well it is erm right. so i think we seem to be agreed that there, we'll attempt to hold a seminar on friday the ninth here in this council chamber. each official will apply for time off their me members that they wish to attend. er if we find that we get a, a, a no answer from the employer in terms of paid release, er the first reserve date will be saturday the tenth and we'll switch it to saturday if we if we can leave it in the hands of the three officers to get together on that without calling another meeting of the group, i think might be better. just to make you again so it's not just the counties that i'll need to ask that's right. it's the other six district councils as well. yes. mm. mm. so it's going to be erm you might only get a week's notice if it's going to be switched to the saturday then i would guess. cos it's gonna be three weeks before i get the replies from some of them isn't it? there is another small point. even though the county may say that staff can have paid release, governors at schools can say no. and there's nothing the county can say about it. oh a school out on it's yes. oh under l m s? yes. that's individuals, yeah. individual school management isn't it? yes. but in our, our circumstances erm they wouldn't say no because obviously they're covered. there's somebody in there yeah. doing the job i would be doing. i mean i'm not saying that would happen in every school cos they, they wouldn't, they wouldn't get it anyway. i've never been to the head, i've never been to the governors. know and she says okay ron, yeah. no but caretakers at the moment are in a different position. mm, there's too many. the rest of the staff are still under the er auspices of the governing body can you switch it off? are you on or off? oh. why don't we leave this? you know i think we've gone over it long enough and leave it to see the er yeah. leave the three officers to sort it out anyway i don't think we, it's, we don't get any, anywhere debating the, the why's and wherefore's. i mean we haven't actually had a knock back, we haven't actually put the request in yet so if we can proceed on that format of applying yes that's what we're saying mr chairman, we, we needed to, we,particularly would tentatively test the water on that? yeah. er this week. tentatively. i think it would have to be some time this week. yes. right. chairman could i also mention that the county council has a conference centre down in havstock park which i think is probably bigger er than this particular room erm may well also have catering facilities. the other aspect is of course catering facilities here on a saturday may not be the same as what they are during the week. yeah. that's true. it may involve additional cost if you're going to have the er chefs coming in for a saturday. specifically yeah. that, that's a good suggestion. so, i think what you're suggesting, if we, if we are moving it to saturday which er is likely erm we could switch the venue to havstock park but i'm not suggesting you know the switch just because of the weekend, i'm suggesting it may be bigger. yeah. it may accommodate more people. yeah. er facilities er exist for parking and so on and the only thing is, er i'm talking about catering in the sense of a saturday whether it's here or there. yeah. er i don't know what the catering facilities are on, on, on a weekend. in either location. yes. yes. er i mean i, i mean have we really thought this through because er if we're an anticipating having hundred, hundred and fifty people here which i suppose is of course about what we would hope for,the response that nupe er as you know they would need to actually achieve the yes vote, i mean we need this sort of room full er wouldn't it not be more sensible to split up between co or not, would it not be normal for the tutor to expect the group to split up to address specific areas like, i don't know, labour party membership, erm finance, i don't know, whatever mm. now you've got a real problem here because you just er you know that this is the only room available. there's no other committee room available on that friday. er admittedly they'll all be available on the saturday but perhaps we would need, you know, we've perhaps a little bit more more work to be done. mm. and that would be a s severe limitation if you're gonna have, you know, hundred, hundred and, hundred to hundred and fifty people in here from ten to four i would the suggestion you're not gonna get the benefit that you know those who not particularly wanna come forward or those of us who shout our mouths off will get the eye of the chairman mm. but there are others who won't. yeah er very good point that, yeah. i i hadn't thought of that but er i mean it will be the group kind of er lecturing i mean it won't be lecturing to er a full meeting all day. so on that basis maybe havstock park would be a better venue cos there would be rooms adjacent i, i should imagine, i haven't been in to havstock park. is there? rooms adjacent to the main so i'm lead to believe, i haven't been to i've been to it. yes there are plenty of rooms. and it would be more fitting for group work would it? yes i think so. and they do catering there. yeah. but whether they do it on a saturday i don't know. right. right, well we're not there's nothing firmed up as it were. well it could, it could be either the ninth or the tenth, it could be held here it could be held at havstock park. we might get paid release we might not erm and i think we're gonna have to leave it and make some further enquiries and get back. and the commercial services group here are hugely expensive for putting on saturday lunches. yeah. yeah. we may be better getting outside caterers. yeah. oh dear. right i think we'll they are hugely expensive yeah. we'll leave it, we'll leave it at that. i mean there's nothing firmed up but yeah two obviously we, we, we we do need to, to clarify before the end of this week is, one is in relation to the paid time off a and two is the accessibility stroke suitability of the particular venue. er and that also envelops the would it be a friday or would it be a saturday set up. i think that, those need to be clarified by i would say, i'm saying well it's tuesday today, definitely by the end of this week. mm. right does it have to be in ? mm? does it have to be in ? because for some people it's as easy to get into newcastle as it is into . yeah. it's a six and two threes we've had a number of times. yeah. i think that i don't mind i think better for parking well check check all the options open to us and then yeah. well it's just, it's just something to bear in mind. er yeah. i think, i think i just had the feeling that the northumberland liaison group yeah meeting in northumberland you know? more more fitting. erm i mean we'll put that down as a third reserve. if we can't get havstock park we'll move we'll be on that boat up and down the river tyne at the finish, that's were we'll end up i think. now the, the other thing i recall from the previous meeting, rod seems to have minutes i think, well he was looking at them before. yeah . erm was that we did elect, i recall, a local publicity group, one representative from each union didn't we? yeah. has the group met yet? well we were supposed to meet after the last meeting which was cancelled. yes that's right. oh. that was cancelled because of the holidays. yeah. it was too close. so we haven't actually met yet. right. so i mean i think what we envisaged though was that the local publicity group erm would meet and see if the well first of all i suppose was there a, a necessity having seen what we've got from national level er necessity to produce a kind of newsletter, a joint unison newsletter specific to northumberland, that's what the group was going to have a look at wasn't it? so probably we can widen it out and have a discussion here this morning now that we have seen some if not all of the stuff that's coming from the respective head offices. would it be necessary and would we want er to supplement that with something no with northumberland in it or on it. you know like a northumberland type newsletter from the three organizations. well i, i think there is still some, quite a number of questions that members are asking. as the ballot papers are going out on the twenty sixth? mhm. distribution of ballot papers on the twenty sixth of october,about subscription. and nobody seems to be, give us any answer to that. subscription level? yeah. contributions, yeah. yeah. well johnny john? john. mm. john? no he's not here, i think he's on the sick. he's not here? i think he's on the sick. oh. er i think that, that my recollection of the last meeting was that if we could just knock together a northumberland newsletter a unison newsletter that's quite clearly coming from the three organizations that represent the membership in northumberland it would be better than th this national stuff has one union on it, as i see it at the moment. i haven't seen anything that all three erm may maybe that's yet to come. erm but i mean there's nothing in, in that that we get from national level that has anything at all appertaining to northumberland in it or on it, has it? and i think that that's what we were envisaging. we needed something to go round the various workplaces in northumberland that actually appertained a bit more to northumberland than the stuff we're going to get from national level. and from the branches of nalgo, nupe and cohse within northumberland had produced it under this kind of joint format. so, i mean what i would suggest is er i don't know is john anticipated to be off for some time do you think? i don't really, he was o he went off on friday. right. erm wh what i would suggest is the three that are on the group and if john's going to be off maybe somebody else from nalgo would, would er step in to the group, get together over the next two weeks or so and er try to jointly produce a northumberland newsletter? i think that's would be the only call on the publicity group really, cos we'll have enough, enough stuff from national level for the rest of the distribution won't we? i mean correct me if i'm wrong, that's the way i look at it. i've drawn that up from the information i was given, i don't know whether could you pass that on to but again the u the information is is erm needs to be updated. these are all the same, we hand them round can we? no that's, there are just oh they're all different. three sets because oh, oh yeah. but i, i didn't know whether that was something that you were looking for, something more local. well i like that on the bottom. cohse, nalgo, nupe working together in northumberland. yeah. that's good. it personalizes it. yes er yeah. yeah that's exactly what we're looking for isn't it? very good these, yeah. unfortunately everybody hasn't got one. oh we've got i can alter them quite easily you see yeah. yeah. erm have we got the facility i, i've got the i, i do, i've got a desktop publishing yeah. package at home you see. i'm just thinking for this meeting if we could photocopy some yes. everybody can have a look at them. any we've lost our secretary. that would be a start. i isn't there a danger of us becoming a committee, a publicity committee you know? i'd hate to try and work out a leaflet in a committee this size. impossibility. oh yeah n no we're just more or less oh i see for information today just for information, right. i mean one member of the committee has produced something which i rather think you might all like to have a look at it . as opposed to just three of us looking at it. yes chair in, in relation to publicity i mean th there's one sole objective and that's in relation to the ballot concerning unison. mm. and i think if we concentrated on that, otherwise even with the publicity group, you'd end up with them saying well what yes, yes what use can we put all this yes. you know? and it, it becomes you'd never actually get the thing printed and you'd never actually get the thing distributed because you, you, you're wondering what to put in, what not to put in as it were and sticking to the specifics er at least it's getting it's getting something out and i don't, personally i don't see any, any real problem in personalizing it further and as much to indicate, right, without obvious prejudice to the new union erm to indicate er in, in some general or specific sense, if that doesn't sound like sort of like contradictory, on on the, the, the betterment of, of representation for members within, within northumberland come unison. you know, bring that in as, as mary's put in, in this stuff there. she's talking about improved representation and personalize that in relation to the northumberland area, which wouldn't contradict what, whatever flows from structures and branch structures in the transitional period er which is you know good six months to a, a, a year away as it were. yes but i've got a thousand members in my, i'm district secretary, i've got a thousand members at least mhm? who don't really know what unison is. yes well yes it's they'll just think it's a pair of boots er haven't got a clue what, what unison is or what it's gon they know they're gonna try and amalgamate the unions to strengthen that's what i never managed to get through. very good mary. but they're not prepared to, to leave nupe, let go of something you know unless it's better than what they've had. and the past few years have been good years of course erm since we've got we, we are on top of the world. you know erm we've recruited more, we've we've enjoyed it more. erm and they're, they're more inclined to listen shop stewards and believe the lies we tell them, you know? and a lot of kids just think oh erm well they're not full lies but they're it will be, will be better cos we don't even know ourselves do we? can you erase the lies from the tape i, i mean in some respects this, this, this is very good mary. i mean i th i think in some respects some of it's, it's some of it is out of date. yeah. yes. yeah well i, i think er of more value would be just to people here present going away, and between now and the seminar on the eighth or ninth is actually trying to get the negatives. because if we actually can address th those real concerns, you know, you know the point that brother just made about why should he leave you to join unison try and crystallize that out in a northumberland way, if that's possible, it may not be, it may be difficult on, on a short punchy a five leaflet it will probably service because i mean it c it can be photocopied, there's nothing wonderful, i mean it doesn't have to be sort of the most wonderful printing techniques and giving them desktop publishing. all, all, all i was doing there steven yeah was to try to see how things could be reduced and enlarged. right, right, yeah that's fine. but i mean i think if we can actually feed some information through on that, on that weekend yeah that friday or that saturday yeah that could be as valu those issues which have come from members could be addressed i think we might achieve what we're after. you know things like uppermost in people's minds, i don't know whether i suppose this question of fees might still be, i don't know, it depends what the national executive say, but i mean i think it's those issues and the fact we can respond quickly is, will be an advantage. i mean then, we've then have what, two weeks to produce a leaflet which which should be quite easy to achieve. well yes because thanks, thanks to mary we've got the erm we've got a, a good backcloth mm. which just would need to be you know, as i call it, personalized a little bit more. erm you know, hopefully by that time will be clarified. but we could easily it's it's something that's better than nothing you know, er briefly er a amend er on to using this as a backcloth as it were. so mai you, you're main, you're main work's actually done, isn't it? aye i think we've go i think we've got to get through to the members actually that together as a, we're gonna be a cohesive force for the benefit of the members . cos let's face it, the the, the authorities are, or the employers, are gonna gain from the fact that we're gonna be a new union that at first we're gonna be trying you know to you know you've got to walk before you run, haven't we? they're gonna gain from that or they're gonna be seeing that they think they gain from that and all you've gotta get over to the members we're gonna be a cohesive force and that we're going, we are going to fight some day together for them. you see donny suggested at that last meeting that we had just small leaflets that we could give to all members. you know the publicity from us would be like a small i don't know what size, just a small leaflet. a five . a five that you can give to each individual member. well that would be better i think, this approach wouldn't it? but the point is at the end of the day they've got to be approached in a just giving them a bit of paper right to run away. i think, i to be quite honest, correct me if i'm wrong, with regard to the publicity group, that the publicity group really was to get something out that was going to act as an icebreaker to the members. i mean you identify ones who never heard the word etcetera. right erm now that's understandable er even, even members who get stuff posted directly such as, you know, we've had a direct mailing system for quite a few years now, when you meet them you say what about i don't know what you're talking about? and you know they've had the book! yeah. you know i mean you er er it's al i, i think the same would happen if you put a five note in inside it would get thrown out with the rubbish but erm the thing is that obviously some, some early day, if one can say in inverted commas early day publicity erm from the northumberland side of things could a and i mean my view when, when ros was telling me what happened at the last meeting erm was that was gonna be acting as an icebreaker as opposed waiting till the last minute somebody's gonna and they think erm as it were,a and build up from, from that because there's obviously gonna be one or two other things coming directly from national level. not a lot, but one or two things direct from national level. er but as i say if, if we can do it on a personalized basis er personalized geographic basis, it gives it more identity er then what, what you produced certainly i is halfway there to the issues that steve mentioned earlier on. we could slot in our ag our agreed words erm that wouldn't, wouldn't have to wait till the regional liaison group met because we've just got the three kingp king kingpins hopefully er and, and try and er you know circumvent that. you see most of us er in the union have got a, like a branch meeting next wednesday right? it's an ideal opportunity to get people, right? or you know whatever turns up. i'll pass on this information i've received which i normally do. then i'll call a district meeting where i'll get other branches together erm shop stewards and that, and i'll pass this information, i've let them know there's such a thing as . i've let them know it's, it's going ahead erm and that the vote is coming off. but it's up to us now to sweeten it before the actual vote otherwise they're just gonna throw their ballot papers away, they're not even gonna bother voting. and the ones that do that voting against. cos that would, that would be the hard part mm? the hard part would be sweeping up after mhm because if you have a group of workers, or individual workers who are immediately faced with a steep rise in contributions oh yeah without any tangible benefit starting at the same day that is your, that is your problem. but you see the, the way we, the way i look it see, the way we've been cut and slashed, and i'm not just talking about high schools and first schools or anything right we've been destroyed, we've been literally thumped into the deck. and the union, i mean i'm not blaming just nupe i mean every union but we seem to have stood still and nothing's happened and th and, and the m , and the members are actually sick of their lies about what, what am i paying all this money for then? now i would approach it on the lines of here's your opportunity, it's not just erm nupe mind, nalgo's joining er cohse's joining and we're gonna be one hell of a force. had one at a time to contend with before. now it's got the three and we're batting for each other, you know playing on the same side. erm conditions cannot get worse now, they'll only get better. and that's the way to look at it, that's the way to put it to them. and to the normal layman that sounds better than not say nothing at all. now you can say to them well we're gonna be struggling we we well we must be, we've got three voices. will be. we will be bigger, we will be stronger. well that's it, you've got to be def aha therefore we will in future be able to negotiate better. but it's always will, will, will in advance but you're asking them immediately for more money. well no not er not in the cases of er, lisa mentioned there, because quite honestly some of them will be paying less especially some will yeah but i'm thinking about the people who a lot of your caretakers might be well a caretaker gets a hundred and ten pound a week, he's not gonna pay more than a hundred and twenty one pence which he's paying now. and i mean to say that's in all honestly, that's what'll happen, they'll pay less i should imagine. can't imagine somebody on a hundred and ten that will be paying more than a hundred and twenty one pence. i mean i can understand the point of will, will, will mhm. you know etce but you erm you, you, you can't use the word now, now, now. it's, it's the same in the majority er of, of major issues in life like er erm like when you get married you're promising i will always love drop the honour er and it's, it's the same at a general election or local election, you know, when we get into power we will. so you, you, you i, i know what you're saying but i mean it's, it's plain i mean is it ian? is it ian? ian, yeah. ian said that judging from the basis of the that some of the nurses there are gonna be paying a hundred and twenty percent more, whatever it was, in contributions. that's based on each individual er at the, at the moment. right, good. h how would you go to somebody like that and say well yeah we, we'll be able to negotiate for you better in the future and we might be able to get more er be better conditions of service than you've got now but as of now you're gonna be paying this much more in contributions. you haven't anything tangible to give them back in return on the extra money, straight away. this is gonna be the hard part, to get it you see you're you're all talking about contributions in or an ability to pay but based on what? where, there has to be a starting figure and it's never come out. and i'm asked every well not say every day of the week but most weeks i'm asked somewhere well where are you gonna start from? are you gonna take the figure starting from one twenty and take it up from there and down from there? or ? there's nobody . er quite right, the people want to know. this is what we're talking about, forget about all, everything else, that's basically want to know. plus they want to know how the branches is gonna operate. nobody's said how the branches is gonna operate. are the branches gonna remain the same way, the same set up? they want to know. and they don't get the answers. and this is gonna a big no. natural and i'm and i never was, but i like to know what i'm voting for and i like to tell the people who i'm responsible for what they are voting for. and so far it's . i think that yeah i think we're just running round in circles. yeah i think on the er i it isn't for us here to decide the level of contributions. er and we i thought we'd agreed earlier we are going to get from the three national executives erm a list of what the contributions are going to be. it's in their hands at the moment er as far as i know they are going to let us know that in the very near future, certainly long before the ballot papers are actually distributed to members. so we will know what the contribution levels are going to be. it is er as i see it they've gone back to the drawing board with where the bands are actually how it's banded. and i, i recall seeing the lowest contribution i think was fifty pence, wasn't it? you know for a part time worker on on low earnings. what ranges from fifty pence to two pound fifty a week. that's, that's what they were weren't they? well they were sort of like rough, rough figures given in relation to er you s you see you cannot deal with rough pending discussions but the whole thing mr chairman really hasn't erm hasn't been decided to you know er a few colleagues point er i mean there's nothing we can actually start and you can put pencil to paper on at the present time. erm i think what we have to do in particular as, as, as full time officers is, is probably try and er and erm chase things up although they they're within the realms of the respo the respective lec's but to try and make sure that they do get some clearer, if not confirmed, insight into re in relation to the contribution aspect. erm so as we could possibly erm lend it to er a pending news newssheet that, that would come out in relation to northumberland. i think and that really is about as much as any of us can say. i mean we could all spend all day discussing that particular issue but up until the decision is made and which road they're gonna go down we do know it's gonna be banding but on what on what basis is it gonna be? that's the thing. you know we, we, we could spend, we could spend a month i know there's a lot of figures floating around no, no you know and various things like that but none of them actually mean any concrete decision on that. mm. well i think if, yes? as important as the, the erm subscriptions in the new union will be, i think we need to also address the fact that we are saying we're gonna fall for members aren't we? we can't say now, now, now we can give you these new services and we can't say we will give you the services as, as we're just promising. i think we're gonna have, we've all got and face the fact that we've gotta give them increased union activity before the ballot. mm. to, to high, to give them high profile anyway. cos you know yeah. i mean can anybody answer that? i don't know and i'm er phoebe er who? it's phoebe? the thing is yes, we we've got a ballot out on, on a pay increase . now, now we actually here and we've only got erm a short time to get round these people, very very short time, erm and get this back in otherwise the ballot will go against or for with no members voting. now we've got to race against time again, this is not just happening in nupe it's happened all over and it's gonna it's happening in this union before it starts. the protection clause will . there's nice little things like that, sick pay er major breakthrough and all this. you know that this is telling the members, it's reassuring the members before they sign it,you wanna accept that pay rise or not. it's a pittance, four percent but you've got to try to get them to accept training and and consultation. and it's exactly the same with joining this, in fact it's more important joining this union as it is a different union altogether. it's more important than just one, one year's pay rise. it's your future. it's your defence. mm i think er what this stuff that i'm er knocking together here into a pack for each of you is a step in the right direction, i think mary's done a, a good job here on this er but some of it's out of date, you know. yes but it's a start. it's a start. yeah. i mean this is exactly the, the type of material that we, we're going to need to put out in northumberland. i mean p and if every leaflet i think has that slogan on cohse nalgo and nupe working together in northumberland, that gets the message across to the members. you'll be, you'll be getting a copy of this in, in the minute. can, can we mr chairman can we not suggest erm the fact that, to the three executives, that the subscription stay the same for three or six month period until unison and members are balloted on subscriptions. er everybody stays as they are for three or six months. well we, we can't because the thing is the, the national decision has been made and within the final report to, to all the conferences this year. erm and it's been accepted and endorsed by three conferences, right? so it's too late. i mean i don't know, i mean somebody er our respective conferences could have raised that er and the debate's gone ahead and it's been voted on and said no, i mean i don't know. erm but it's too late for that. i it's too late for that. i think in addition to that erm well i wouldn't want to say too much other than in that respect it would erm it would reduce representation to mem members i would say by about forty percent at the present time before structures etcetera etcetera were sorted out. i mean i may have been being a bit naive as a general sort of, just a rep within nalgo, i'm not i'm not, although i've had all the publicity, and yes i'm , sometimes you do not the course. and they're all genuinely things apology or or whatever reason, there are things that i genuinely don't know. that's what i think. and i think you've gotta address my doubts because if i have doubts how am i going to stand in front of members and say hang on a minute, i can give you all of these answers, i can tell you what unison's going to be like and this is what's been decided, now come back to me and give me your fears, give me your doubts and i'll go and take them on to represent you. how can i do that? how can i stand up and do that? i don't know i think that's one of the purposes mr chairman also of the, of the educational seminar that we're in the throes of organizing, to actually to do that. to, to educate, advise th a after the seminar the, the activists who then can go out i, like the disciples in a sense erm to, to the, to the new membership. if you don't mind me saying i think it's a little bit late in the day. i said this all along unfortunate fell holiday time i'm sorry to say but i think that we're talking about this education day at the beginning of october and i mean god knows we've known this is coming for, it's almost as if we've got to the brink of, you know like lemmings just about to throw ourselves off the cliff and we don't know why we're going to do it. we, we can't stand there in front of members and put ourselves in the firing line if we don't know the answers to their questions. yeah. well th this has been foisted on you by a group of activists sort of mm and, and the problem has not been a lack of information the problem has been a saturation of information nupe and cohse but certainly in nalgo scandinavian forests have bit the dust er and it's written in a language that hardly anybody can understand anyway. yeah. er you, you know it's, it's not plain english, it certainly wouldn't and i think the task really is to try to translate some of that stuff into english mm er you, you know er northumbrian perhaps er or, or whatever. i mean there is a further diffi difficulty is, as an erstwhile activist jaundiced, jaundiced activist shall i call myself i mean a point of view mentioned recognition of the river authorities, i mean erm the latest pay awards i mean we haven't had too much to gloat about have we?this, this is what the m this is what we can do for the members. i mean we're up against a wall. i mean increasingly small authorities are effectively opting out of the national negotiat now we can't ignore th well, good afternoon, everybody, i think we'd better get started. we looked so thin on the ground, i thought we'd sit and wait and see if everyone's coming, but erm we'll have to get started anyway. we'll welcome, we have two speakers, mr bob plumtree, and ms erica ison. we asked them to the meeting and we look forward to listening to you later on in the agenda. the minutes of the meeting held in january. any corrections to the minutes first? page 1? page 2? page 3? yes, judith gaffan i believe, erm not judith gaffon, whatever that meant, it's spelling mistake. yes, she'd like her name spelt yes, right. could you spell it out then, correctly. g a f f a n ’ a’’n’, ah, thank you very much. page 4? page 5? there's a small typographic error, a line up from the bottom, fluoride should have a’ u’before the’o’, rather than the’o’before the’u’, to make it’fluo’, not’flour’. yes, i page 6, 7. ’ matters arising’, page one, page two, page three? on page two, the recommendation four? yes, please, i wondered just quickly erm the letter to the foreign office, has there, can we see a copy of this? erm we haven't as yet, erm the problem is i don't normally deal with the sub- committee, the person that's that should be dealing with it is not here today, so i've been unable to track down a copy of this letter. ah, i was just going to say, if it hadn't already been done, erm friends of the earth will be perfectly willing to do that.. yes, erm i'll check that up, i'm sorry about that. certainly i think i mentioned 2. a: points discussed at the public transport sub-committee. that's right, i've actually got the draft with me. have you? yes please. this was discussed at public transport at its last meeting, and there's quite a lot of preamble, but basically erm in response to this request, erm mr townsend said that he reported the bus and coach council was looking at the question of pollution and green issues generally, and was about to produce a document suggesting ways forward. the bus industry as a whole was very conscious of the problem of pollution, and were trying to provide solutions as far as it could. mr brunhead, who represented thames transit limited stated that the city council could just be proud of what it had done, for public transport, and he was aware that the city council was looking again at the balanced transport policy, and ways of making the city centre more viable for bus and for public transport. he stated that the bus companies wanted to reinstate the dual bus lanes, and that these should be extended, and that traffic generally in the city centre should be reduced, and that public transport should be encouraged. erm mr brunhead also said that his company were investigating the possibility of fitting ceramic filters to its vehicles to cut out pollution. the city reported that city council was in the process of reviewing the which included the updating of the balance of transport policy, and that this would be submitted to the highways and traffic committee in the next few months. any matters arising on page 5? erm page 6? erm we have a response on 49/2, on the front page of the agenda from the allotments sub-committee. erm there does seem to be a sort of slight discrepancy in the idea of us trying to have a nice clean city and then the people on the allotments committee continuing to build bonfires. erm and it is possible that they perhaps, they haven't in fact any alternative way of getting rid of their rubbish, on the allotments site. that either they haven't been able to think about it very carefully, not looking at the real options, or haven't got an electric point, so they can't have an electric shredder, or whatever the appropriate way of dealing with the more sort of shrubby erm waste that they're likely to have. there was a leaflet wasn't there about bonfires? we haven't actually, i haven't actually seen one. did it go, was it a leaflet that the allotment sub-committee had? no jan, i understand some information published from the company double day research association, erm including a leaflet and erm if you recall chair, we were asked about producing a leaflet for some time ago. we haven't actually produced one yet, but it's something that we sort of erm attempted so hopefully, by we will be able to reconsider whether or not they can cut out bonfires on the certainly on the larger allotments yes anything else? are we talking about that now? have you something to add to it? yes, i've got an allotment actually in the city, and i compost most of my stuff, as most of you'll be aware, this is by far the best way of dealing with it. as far as i'm aware, the only reason to actually light a fire, make a fire is actually to kill pests, and disease, erm maybe, but those should be in relatively small amounts, so those do need to be incinerated to make sure they're killed properly. if you've got big compost, then maybe the heat of the compost might kill them, but as much as that, it will probably just rejuvenate them. so, that might be something to bear in mind, that it's not just the negative part, get rid of the excess sort of organics, but it's to get rid of cure disease. it there may need a press release which gives out a more balanced view to go out. could be a need for a press release on that then, couldn't we, chris. any last minute contributions according to the i heard a statement from the environmental health officer about what was being done on the environment, current position of the state, are we aiming to see that one? sorry, what page are we on? page seven of the minutes, last minutes. oh, erm yes indeed we have, erm it's that was a report which i've put to local government information which was in fact written by or contributed by officer roy holt and on the to erm have a look at that, have a copy of it i mean. is that the same as the association of district councils? no, they're doing one on their own, no, we'll come back to that later on. this one is . this is local government information unit, which is funded from all of the local authority associations, and they have taken an interest in the passing of the environmental bills and they ran , we do give them some help, which we did. so this is erm separate organisation. is this a national initiative? it's not a government one, a local authority organisation. in fact that's essentially a worth-while sort of . are we going to go back again to didcot power station in the meeting? sorry? are we going to go back again to didcot power station in the meeting, or are yes, it's on the agenda. no urgent business? item 5, lucy's. perhaps i'll just explain what this is about, chairs, it's not very self- explanatory. if you recall, there was an explosion at lucy's erm just over a year ago, last march, erm when there was an explosion in their air-filtration plant. following on after that, we had a public meeting to which erm mrs dick was invited, and about 90 members of the public. and erm this sub-committee asked for the c h o. to write to the health and safety executive asking for a report on their findings of their investigation into the causes of the explosion, and erm after several letters,if you recall at the last meeting i was asked to write to mps and so forth. i didn't need to write to mps because within two days of the meeting, this letter appeared. and the letter is tells me basically that they've not been able to find out what the cause of the explosion was, and that there hasn't been any further explosion since. what i can also tell you is that lucy's engaged the erm british cast iron research association to carry out a survey, and they tried to repeat the circumstances of the explosion, and they couldn't do so. they just could not repeat what transpired. so, i think we're no nearer forward to having a reason for the explosion, but erm there hasn't been one since. any questions on that? i have a comment. it seems that the length of time in them answering reflects the fact that all these sort of pollution inspectorates and health and safety executives are understaffed. you know, because of cut-backs, and that's probably the reason why, it's a hell of a long delay isn't it, three or four months or so. and there isn't really an answer, this is just an assumption that it was . it could happen again, you just don't know. well, if they really tried to do it again and they failed, there's not much else that we could ask them to do is there? anyway, we know what the situation is a little bit. item 6, mr bob plumtree, would you like to give us some more information about saving the rainforests. erm would you like me to give you information, or would you like to ask me questions, and maybe i can try and answer them, i mean, it's just as you wish. well, could you sort of start by talking a little, and then yes, certainly, i'll do that. there are various activities going on at the present, looking at the state of the rainforest, and what is happening, one of which is a project which we are involved in ourselves, which is looking at the incentives to people to erm manage the forest, for sustained yield, so it produces timber indefinitely. and the other benefits in the forest. erm and what it makes people either do it or not do it, right from the forest end, right through to the consumer end. now we are involved in a project at the moment, with the international tropical timber organisation. perhaps i'd better introduce my sort of position here. i've spent 14 years in east africa, most of it working with tropical rainforest and its utilisation, so i've been in uganda, which is a relatively small country as far as forests are concerned. but i have worked in conditions there. but since then i've been on a unit of tropical forestry in oxford forestry institute, and i've been travelling regularly, almost yearly since i've been there. erm the trouble about the tropical forest is this tremendous variation from place to place, the conditions are totally different in different places, although the forest is similar in that it's got large numbers of different species of trees and flora and fauna. it's extremely rich in different species that it contains. and that in order to manage it to retain all the species, you need to more-or-less leave it alone. erm on the other hand, if you take the variety, you in fact leave it very mixed still, because you take your relatively small quantity out each time you go round, and you're taking a relatively small number of species, so that if you are logging in a tropical forest at the sort of intensity most logging takes place, you're only creating gaps where you take out the valuable species and leave the less valuable species. probably in the nature of ten percent of what is actually standing on the ground in terms of trees is taken out of each logging in question. partly because the species are not marketable, partly because trees are only taken over a certain size, erm and so on. and a large part of my time in uganda was spent trying to market new species, taking on a wider range of species, and a more intensive utilisation, so that you've opened up your canopy enough to encourage the regeneration of the valuable species. erm so there are lots of questions as to what is actually the sustainable yield. and this little book, i don't know whether you've come across it, is a fairly technical description of what's happening in different parts of the world, and what is meant by sustainable management of tropical crops. it's fairly readable, i think for the non-forester as well as being fairly technical of course as well. erm now, possibly i could go on as to whether in fact we could do anything about preserving the tropical forest in this country. again, the conditions are very very different in every place, so if you go to honduras, erm they have 2 million hectares of tropical forest, which is scarcely being used at all to the use of timber, but is being steadily cut down, and turned into, first peasant agriculture, and second, ranching. and the ranching . if you go to brazil, there's a lot of destruction of the forest. there's a tremendous amount of forest. if you refuse to buy it from brazil, tropical timber, their exports are something in the region of between 3 to 5 percent of their . so, in fact you're not going to do anything to them much in the way of discouraging them from removing their forest, by stopping them exporting small amounts of . zaire is a huge tropical forest, which is virtually untouched, and not being touched because it's too inaccessible. indonesia has large industries, recently developed in the country, and are exporting large quantities to saw mills, whereas a few years ago they were exporting to lots, they are now exporting saw wood and ply wood. a big trade, probably the biggest imports of tropical ply wood and saw wood come from indonesia, as far as this country's concerned anyway. erm indonesia's policy in the past has been to clear and resettle excess population from java, into the other, into sumatra and town, the two other islands bordering over sumatra. and they have had this policy of resettlement called transmigration so they were actually clearing forest after logging, and then settling. this has been reduced, and there's been a considerable move in indonesia towards turning over to sustained yield management. but having said that, over the whole of the tropics, there's something like a thousand million hectares of forest, of which one million is actually managed as sustained yield as defined by this book, which is erm managing the forest, and actually carrying out sort of operations to improve the regeneration afterwards. it is not cutting the forest, going away, leaving it and letting the trees look after themselves, and the rest of the forest regrow, without actually going in and cutting it down and burning it. erm there's probably two-thirds of the logging that goes on in the tropical forest, which is about 5 million hectares a year erm is of that nature, so that the forest is left to recover after the logging has gone through. and forest, if it is left to recover, will in fact recover fairly well, probably with slightly fewer of the species that have been taken out, but the same sort of diversity of tree cover, and of fauna and flora, because in fact you're taking very little out when you're logging alone. so, the really destructive thing is cutting it down and burning it and turning it over either to shifting agricultural, or permanent agriculture, ranching or something else. erm now, perhaps we come back to what can we do at this end, and i think friends of the earth has done an excellent job in bringing it to peoples' attention that large areas of tropical forest are being destroyed at roughly the rate of 0.7 or 0.8 percent of the forest each year, erm and they, you know i'm in agreement with them on the fact that forest is disappearing, it's dangerous in many places, it's catastrophic in some, for instance, particularly in west africa, the clearing that's gone on in the ivory coast is pretty disastrous, and erm there are indications that the west african strip of forest along the strip of the west african coast by removing that you're going to make not only that area slightly drier, but mainly the northern areas of those countries, and the drier, so it may well affect climate. erm i would be quite happy to ban timber obtained from the ivory coast, because i think forestry is particularly reprehensible. on the other hand, next-door-neighbour ghana has a policy to preserve forest and look after a limited quantity of the forest, and manage it with sustained yield. so you've got two countries next door to each other, one of which is on the whole starting into reasonably good practice, whereas the other has , although it says it has intentions of doing it, in the case of the ivory coast. you have another country along that coast, nigeria, which has just got to the stage where it's got through its forest and it's not exporting anything at all, if anything it's importing. erm so i would say there are critical areas of the world where erm the destruction of forest is becoming particularly serious, and that's one of the areas i would particularly want to concentrate on, and possibly parts of central america. erm so that there are differences between countries. if you then go within countries to the differences between individual areas or forests within a country, there are probably, the general policy is set by governments is more or less holds for all the different timber concerns in the country. so i think to some extent what one needs to do is to try and get at the governments, rather that at individual timber producers. erm part of the project that we're on is trying to look at the possibility of tracing timber through from the forest right through to the end user, or at any rate, the sale at the saw-mill, in the same . but it's going to be extraordinarily difficult to check that a piece of timber that you buy in a market here, or you buy down the road in a timber yard, is in fact, erm does in fact come from a particular forest in ghana. and there are all sorts of methods of sort of cheating the system, if you're a timber industry in ghana. erm there are possible ways of introducing chemical or dyes, or something like this, which we're going to investigate, but i think its, if you find that a particular dye does it's job, it won't be long before . erm i think the general pressure on tropical governments now from the environmental lobby has got to the point where they aren't they're beginning to realise the problems. certain ones of them, for instance the brazilians may not be taking an awful lot of notice, or may not apparently be taking an awful lot of notice at the moment, but i think the pressure is on, and that things are changing, and more and more countries are going towards policies that will in fact support, sustained yield production and timber from the forests, and the reservation of the forests for that purpose, erm i mean in many countries have a policy where they just let tribal institutes use the raw material, and the forest is not reserved, and it's not looked after. the other aspect is there are a large number of people a large number of these countries depend on their forest industries for producing foreign exchange which is particularly scant, a lot of the world, particularly africa is suffering from debt problems, erm i worked in uganda for 14 years and i found it really to get back there: the salary of a forest officer now is something, is worth in real terms something like 1 percent of what it was in 1962. erm his salary in 1962 was something in the region of six thousand a year in present terms, it's now worth £60. erm he has to go out and get most of his livelihood from some other source, and uganda's an extreme case, but there are many other african countries where the position is similar. erm if you further make things difficult from the point of view of actually banning imports of timber from uganda you may in fact be able . i'm not sure whether it will or won't. but there is a school of thought that says that if one can make the forests economically or financially valuable to the countries then they're more likely to look after them than if you don't. so maybe what we need to do is to pay more for the timber, and be prepared to do that. and one of the, again i'm harping on to this particular project we're involved with at the moment, one of the objectives that we're involved with at the moment is to look at who gets what in terms of financial gain, right the way from the people who live in the forest, if there are people who actually live in the forest, to the people who live around the forest, to the industries, to the governments to the importers and exporters and the rest. perhaps i've said enough. but i think it is it could well be counter-productive to put bans on buying tropical timber, particularly blanket bans, on the other hand, i think there's a lot of case to be, a lot of point in asking people and pressing people to say whether the folk that the timber is coming from sustained yield forest. thank you very much. any questions or comments? well, i'm in agreement with you, and i think most environmentalists are in agreement that sustained growth is the way forward, and they have to be sustainable for the economies of the people who actually live there to survive, and sustainable for the whole planet to survive. but you were talking about, you did mention some statistics, could you? am i right in saying is it one million hectares out of a thousand million hectares are actually sustainable at present. are actually as defined in this book, which is involves quite a lot of activity before felling and after felling. it doesn't need me to say that we've got a long way to go. there is, there's a tremendous way to go, in action. does the oxford forestry institute have a programme of education for the ordinary members of the public to enable them to have this vision of their assets. because i have this feeling i often have this feeling that these global aspects the person in the street, their first priority is about their damp house and the rest of it, it's very difficult to erm. and i just wondered how you try and tackle this problem well, we're basically a university department. sure. we are part of the university department with a sort of world-wide interest in forestry. erm we occasionally go on the radio, occasionally radio, occasionally, very occasionally on t v but not often. erm we had a conference recently which dealt with the tropical forest and some interested parties came, the timber trade, friends of the earth, this was a couple of sundays ago. it was very good. but we don't as a regular thing do much as far as the public is concerned but what we do do is training for tropical foresters, and during the summer vac. we have something like 60 tropical foresters, and we have a management course, a research course, and erm a social forestry course, which is combining farming and forestry. erm so that there are a large number of tropical foresters now who've been here and gone back to their own country, and one of the things which i point out to them these days is the need for public relations in their own countries, and getting information across to governments and being able to talk to economists and finance people in their own countries. but we don't do much beyond that, maybe we should. bob could i ask you, if i understood correctly, one is that really logging is not the main problem, cutting down rainforests, and two, if their really was efficient logging it might actually be better for the rainforests, the consequence of which if that's correct would be that we should be concentrating on governments, rather than on timber. yes, i mean the main brute force of destroying tropical rainforest is population increase, pressure on land, and people going into forests, but a large part of that is determined by the government's attitude, whether it in fact concentrates on trying to improve agriculture, or whether , under all sorts of pressures from the government to do that. sorry, i wanted to make two points, i think there's a big difference between foresters like yourself and the people who're actually out there logging, and you know, i have no doubt about the work you do at the oxford forestry institute, and several of your tutors and lecturers have been to talk to us, and friends of the earth certainly is calling for sustainable management forestry. but i think the actual situation in some of these countries is that erm the loggers especially say like in sarouac, where the government's only granted three year licences to logging companies, they're just going in there, cutting everything down because they've only got a short space of time, and they're trying to maximise, obviously, their profit. and i think there's a big difference between you talking about what happens as far as forestry is concerned and actually what some of the logging companies are up to. and i think the other thing that's important to bear in mind as well as far as logging's concerned is that a lot of the poor slash-and-burn cultivators that come in have come along roads that the logging companies have built, and these provide easy access, say straight into the heart of the amazon or what ever. and it makes it easier for the slash-and-burn cultivators to get in rather than sort of coming in gradually round the edges, there are now great swathes cut through tropical rainforest at amazonia certainly, and the trans-scabon railway is about to be put through which again will make it easier for the sort of to come in, and i think that should be bourn in mind. i mean, i'm not against foresters, but loggers seem to be a fairly destructive lot, i mean some of the forestry practice that actually goes on is appalling. yes, i agree entirely, i think some of the logging is awful. erm and the cultivators coming down the logging roads, i agree entirely. erm but it basically comes down to the attitude that people have, if the government was, or whoever owns the forest, private ownership, or whatever, controls what the loggers do, i mean it's their forest it's up to them to control what the loggers do and don't do, and whether they let cultivators in or they don't let cultivators in. erm it may be that in certain places there's so much pressure on land from the people that there's not a lot they can do. erm and even governments can't do much. there's a lot they can do though say to control the loggers in sarouac. i mean basically areas that are supposed to be sustainably forested well, i think savac and sarouac are bad areas at present, there's a lot of peninsular-malaysia all through this period, and has now got quite tough erm and is probably the nearest to sustainable management of almost anywhere in the tropics now. now they're not applying the same rules and regulations in savac and sarouac, it's the island peninsular, maybe their reaction to the friends of the earth is symptomatic of a certain degree of bad conscience that they have with the, with the other two. because we're actually in quite close contact with sarouac and malaysia, which is close to the malaysia, you know, we do have reports that they've actually got great big arc lights on the slopes, and that the loggers are actually working 24 hours round the clock in some areas now, and that the forest you know is being completely chopped down. well, the other thing is the intensity of logging is much greater than . and if you look at the, i've got a few statistics on these two. erm but if you look at the statistics, both sathor and sorarie are exporting huge quantities of logs which practically nobody else is doing. so that is another area that if i was to put a ban on imports that mainly goes to japan i take it. a large part of it goes to japan. did you want to ask a question? i was going to say that in a lot of these countries the logging concessions are owned by government ministers and the elite. you can't really ask the government to do something about the logging when it's owned by themselves, i mean, or rather it's controlled by the powers of the country and the only way to do something there is to boycott their timber, not to pressure the government, and we're back to, you know, back to square one. i think certainly the environment minister has in sarouac 10,000 hectares, he's actually got a license out there, and you know that's pretty depressing when you realise that the environment minister's got some of the licenses for logging. maybe there are cases when you can do nothing else than support the . i would say that, i mean take uganda as an example again, the permanent secretary who demanded a certain fee before he'd consider a certain company got the push from government. so it depends whether all your government ministers . and if you put pressure on government, you may in fact achieve the result that you want. now, we've moved on rather into sort of individual countries. yes, i think i mean if one goes into corruption one could spend an awful long time. did you want to ask a question? sorry, i keep seeing your hand. well thank you very much, it's obviously a totally different point of view to what we'll hear perhaps in a few minutes. it was really interesting to hear from a personal view, as well, actually, you know, i mean rainforests are to most of us just something we see on the television or we see pictures, it's sort of a rather romantic idea, or a mythic idea, it's lovely to talk to someone who's got a much more overall view of the whole problem. thank you very much, please do stay with us either for the whole afternoon, or certainly for the next erm are you having the sort of other case first or? i don't know whether it's the other case, i'm hear to tell you about our first of all, which i don't think is the other case. that's fine, i'd had, on the subject of this boycotting timber, erm i know of two instances at least where oxford city council are still using tropical hardwoods, and i wonder, i mean, you know, obviously it goes against the grain of the signing of the tropical hardwood . i was wondering if we ought to find out who's decided to start using it again, and whether they really checked, i have been told they check on the source, but it's like we're slipping back gradually, and i thought if we said, if we pledged that we're going to boycott timber, we should really keep to it unless we make a decision could you give the offices some details, rather than having it all out in public, thanks. chase up what's happening. because yes, we did say we weren't going to use tropical markets, erm perhaps in the view of some of the things bob plumtree's been saying, perhaps that was a little bit premature, perhaps we would want for some countries tropical woods, might want to reconsider, but erm i think that's something for the future, that's not for this afternoon. i think we've actually had a resolution through council yes, yes. and therefore if we are doing, thinking one department's doing something that you know that it oughtn't to i think it would be very helpful if you . it's partly a misunderstanding along the line somewhere, it would be very useful if you could actually check it up. thank you. erm well, welcome! we may have heard from you, but erm please do tell us something about the oxford rainforest festival. yes, erm i'm sorry to disappoint you this isn't going to be the other side of the coin. this is just what we're doing, erm in oxford this summer, from may 19th to june 5th, a) to raise public awareness about the rainforest, and the causes of its destruction, and what individuals can do to help. we're actually trying to let people have fun while they're doing this, instead of maybe hectoring them erm we stand on enough picket lines as it is outside d i y stores, so they're probably fed up with seeing us there. erm this rainforest festival is actually being carried out over the country. it's under the auspices of arts for the earth, which is the creative branch of friends of the earth. it's happening in major cities, local groups are getting involved, so you might find a village firm somewhere is organising a sponsored walk. but we've actually got a festival which is upwards of 30 events. and we've tried to get something for everyone, we've got 2 classical music concerts, for instance, the johannis piano trio, and then a specially sort of brought together rainforest orchestra, where professional musicians all over the county can come together to create a programme. now those are all happening at the holywell music rooms. we've got rory bremner at the apollo, and our projected profit on that if we sell all the tickets is £15,000. we've got a lot of educational stuff for children, erm we're running a series of what are known as pittstops, which is workshops for children at the pitt rivers museum, all on a rainforest theme, erm rainforest collage, rainforest dance, rainforest masks and rainforest stories. but we've also had an artist from the art week event, which the rainforest festival overlaps with going into a chosen school, with a member of friends of the earth, we give them a talk about rainforest, and they do the, i don't know if you've seen them in the buses, the sort of advertising slots, we've got 80 of those slots on the buses throughout the rainforest festival, and the children are actually drawing pictures for them. and there are also 20 huge panels that are going on the sides of the buses, that kids have also painted. so we've been doing that with children as well. the special needs unit, attached to the college of further education, is actually decking their special needs unit out as a rain forest, both before and after, so there's the rainforest in all its glory, and then the rainforest after it's been chopped down and destroyed in the next room, so the special needs unit are really enjoying that. we've got a broad-sheet on the three main areas of the world that has tropical rainforest, latin america, africa and also south-east asia, and then we've got broadsheets like on the genetic diversity, we've got a broad-sheet on extracting preserves versus cash crops, and that kind of thing. so, because in this festival we will be reaching people we normally do not reach as a group, for instance we're having two pop concerts, the rory bremner thing, we're going to be reaching people we don't normally see on our d i y. picket, or people who come to our lectures that the rainforest campaign, we could be meeting thousands of people we don't normally see, so we've tried to produce an information package that will get them interested. so because we're doing something from our normal end of the spectrum as it were right through to trying to involve everybody in the city, erm we're hoping to get the issue across to a lot more people, and also raise money while we're doing it. the project we're hoping to sponsor, there's now friends of the earth in ghana, erm who've doctor plumtree quite rightly said, ghana are working hard on re-forestation schemes, and a scheme that friends of the earth is doing is a community re- forestation scheme, because a lot of the re-forestation schemes are from the top down, and they don't actually get the villagers involved in whatever, so we'll actually be funding community reforestation schemes, several species of trees, particularly those which help to regenerate the soil, especially if it's been degraded because the trees have been chopped down, or what-have-you. and so that the village benefits from the wood in some way, erm like there's a teak plantation they've got going at the moment, and in ten years time, the teak will be used to carry electricity, so that the village can have some electricity as well, i mean it's to do with giving the village something as well as trying to help the environment. and our other project will probably be in malaysia, where we're hoping to be able to fund lawyers to go and visit the indigenous tribes, and educate them about the malaysian process of law, because at the moment i'm sure you'll know that various indigenous people have been blockading the logging roads that go on to their demarcated territory. erm because the loggers have been, as i said earlier, logging 24 hours around the clock, and they're supposed to be logging over a 70 year cycle, and they're not because the companies have only got three year licenses, and basically the indigenous people have just had enough, so they started to block the logging roads. but they were then held in remand in prison, and didn't really know how to defend themselves, so this project will be sending lawyers into the long houses of the indigenous peoples, trying to educate them about the process of malaysian law, and work it into their system of customary law, which is known as adat, whereby within the long house, all the community leaders and the members within the community debate disputes over land rights, the forest, the use of it, and try and get them to use their customary law with a knowledge of the malaysian legal process in order to form associations and fight being thrown into prison because they're trying to defend the forest. a worrying thing at the moment is as i said we're in close contact with is that the malaysian government is sending representatives over to visit the european community ministers in may, to try and say that there's absolutely nothing wrong with what's going on in their country with the logging, and they're saying that people like friends of the earth are calling for a ban on timber, not because they care about sustained yield, but because we want to be able to sell our own wood, and this is to depress their trade. and if as far as what's happening in sarouac certainly is concerned. this isn't true, the logging practices were atrocious, and even tribal burial grounds have been uprooted by the loggers, and the number of deaths last year, in 1989, logging deaths was 94, because they're sending loggers up even steep slopes to get the timber than they would normally, so there's actually a lot of bad practice going on, so we're hoping to fund friends of the earth, malaysia in their environmental programme to help the indigenous people defend themselves, and therefore the forest better. so that's where the money's going, and we're hoping that we make enough money in sponsorship so that the money we earn, people will know that it's all going out to help the projects we want to, and it's not being wasted on administration, especially after there's been erm a bit of a debark over sting's money, where only 5% went to the indians and also the rainforest foundation has since collapsed, so our head-office is going to be absolutely stringent about making sure that the money is spent where we've asked it to be spent. erm i don't know if there are anything else i should be telling you. oh yes, i mean, if anybody would like to come to the presentation tonight, i do have an invitation. and also, it's not just oxford friends of the earth who are involved now, it seems to be touching everybody, and people are just getting involved, and it's generating a really nice air of enthusiasm and care, and i hope that people feel it's beginning to be their rainforest festival. we're having a launch on may 7th, and the city council have been very good to give us a rainforest tent at the fun-in-the-parks at south park. and we're also having a sponsored tree best, where we're hoping that lots of children will come along dressed up as trees, and have raised at least £10 sponsorship each and we're having performances on a rainforest theme, and a dancer who will be doing a dance for rainforest , and there's some rainforest type music and things like that, and there'll be prizes and certificates for the children who are trees, and there'll be an exhibition that head office are launching. so there will be quite a rainforest theme to may 7th, which is where we're sort of hoping to launch everything, and start selling tickets for the events, things like that. i do have info. i'm afraid only six each, just a leaflet about rainforests, just in case anybody's interested. there's also one about rainforest conservation in the timber trade, dare i say it, so there's six of these each. plus there's invites for anybody who'd like to come along tonight, i know it's late notice. it sounds really good fun! it is, it is. oh, and i forgot to tell you yes, there's quite a lot of visual art as well, and one of the really exciting things is our mail art exhibition, and that's m a i l, where we've invited people from all over the world, and within the community, to send in art on the theme of the rainforest. it can be no bigger than a4, and it mustn't project more than 3 inches, but at the moment they are pouring into rosie headers house, and we've had stuff from japan and america already, and also from artists in the community, but anybody can enter for mail art, so if anybody's interested in a mail art sheet, i can get one for you, but those exhibitions are going up in freud's, which is our sort of festival centre for the two and a half weeks during the festival. we hope on cabaret there every night, and we've got two rainforest exhibitions going on there, so the mail art's really exciting actually. especially for rosie, who's getting all the post. i was just wondering if later on, i mean there's a lot of work goes into it, later on, if you want to sustain a programme on this whether we could use the town hall, because often other . erm and in fact, you can just continue. the other thing is the information centre where lots of visitors go, and if you've got an information pack, if you want us to buy it, that's fine, and we'll put it in there, you know, what's on? you've got a what's on list? yes, we've just produced a diary. the problem at the moment is, we've been on word processor up to now, but the designer is designing a programme at the moment, so i don't have a programme to show you because it's with the designer, erm all we've got is the diary, that we're kind of like again on the word processor, that we're producing tonight. but, also tony abora, who did the poster for your conference is that was lovely. is, well we've asked him to do something like that, well anyway, tony abora is working on the posters and the logo and things like that, all for free. and the lady that does the watershed programme from bristol is also doing our programme for free. we hope we've got a deal going with oxford mail, where they'll maybe deliver to 20,000 doors in oxford the programme, door- to-door. so we are going to give it a lot of coverage, and obviously put it in places like the information centre. i think, if you send it in, i'll make sure that we do get it in there, because everything's paid, and that's that. but sorry i can't show you any sort of programme, or anything, but that's because it's no, when you do, i mean, we'll do that. because everything's still growing! i mean. i keep, apart from the fact that we've got an enormous number of deadlines, but david keeps saying,’ we must stop’, and then people ring us up and say’oh, i, can i do this’, and we've, you know people say,’oh, well, i play the saxophone’, and then we find out that he's got a huge band and he's very famous, and they've just rung us up to say, you know, can we play for you for free. i mean, it's been absolutely marvellous, the response we've had and the energy and enthusiasm of everybody getting involved. erm and as i said, we're trying to, not that i'm giving the opposite view to doctor plumtree, as i said, we're trying to fund the people on the front line, you know, the foresters in their back yard, as it were, we're trying to preserve it, and we also feel we're not being patronising, it's not like we're writing out a large cheque and saying’ here you are’, we're actually putting a lot of time and effort into this, i mean, it's now become a full time job for me and certainly for dave kester, and all the other people working on it. and we're not being paid, i mean, we're doing it as volunteers. so we're not being patronising with it. we're saying, we're trying to help you by raising this money, erm it's not sort of lecturing them or anything, we're trying to focus on communities and empower them by giving them money for projects they want to happen, it's not anything we've decided. anybody for some comments any questions? would anybody like an invite while yes, 7.30 till 9.00, university museum, wine and canapes. i'm making the canapes, i don't know whether that tempts you or not. haven't you got enough on your plate? yes, and does anybody want to give will you have a what's on tonight. yes, there'll be a brief diary there, while the programmes being are you sort of circulating a programme that the events sort of yes, yes, it just hasn't been designed or printed yet. lovely, thank you very much. no questions, no but you've obviously covered everything, you talk about it with such enthusiasm. yes, and we've got the window in dillons , and we've got the window in dillons as well during the festival. they're going to put up our posters, and the diary, and things like that. you know, we've worked hard on trying to get it in everywhere, into peoples' notices and we've linked up with art week quite well, as well. well, thank you ever so much for telling you about it. and we look forward to seeing some more publicity, between us we have fingers in many pies, and the more we know about it the more chance we have to spread the word around. you can come along tonight! it's actually a very difficult time for us, with elections coming up. oh, of course, of course , sorry, sorry! i'm sorry, do you mind if i leave, because i've actually got to go and make the canapes. thank you very much, for this very nice time. thank you both very much. it was very interesting erm let's spread our wings a bit further round the environment, and have a look at our friends of the earth environmental charter. you're not going to talk about all of that. not at all, i thought you might, you remember you had a quick preview of that, a few months ago, and you'll be pleased to know that the chief officers have now decided that the best way of dealing with it is for each, no first of all they decided that they'll recommend two members for the signing of the charter, that's the first step, it's quite a step forward, remembering they . then they felt that the most effective way of dealing with it would be for each main committee to look at the various aspects in detail, rather than take the and miss everything, best for each of the main committees to look in detail at each part. now the response, what they have done is they've had a look, we have looked briefly at some of the aspects, overall aspects and you'll find that in a number of these things, oxford city council is already quite heavily involved. and that's good, and that's to be encouraged. but other things will have to be worked through. we will be needing, we've been to the rest of the committees, i think, perhaps you can carry on yes, it's been to all the committees now, bar the public affairs committee. erm if you look at page 14 of the agenda, it tells you what the committees, up until the highways and traffic committee'd agreed. since then the personnel committee have considered the report, and they agreed to the recommendations in paragraph 7(a), 1,3 and 4, but the third paragraph, 7(a) (2) to . the health committee also considered it and they made a number of points. they noted and endorsed the reservations about the various areas of policy development and ways of implementing the policies expressed in the report. they asked the officers to submit a detailed report on the programme of research to be undertaken by the association of city councils, in advance of the issue being considered by party groups. they asked the individual chief officers to prepare reports to the committees on action that could be taken on the detailed recommendations of friends of the earth. they agreed to adopt the friends of the earth information set out in paragraph 3.1 of the report. and that the future reports to the committee should consider green implications, including the financial implications of green issues. the report then went to finance committee, and i believe it actually referred the whole of the report to the party groups, now. that's right. i was sort of working out number b there. that is true, so in a sense what you have is two aspects. the charter has dare i say it, got the green light, yes, yes alright. we shall therefore be talking to the local chair of friends of the earth, whose name just escapes me a minute, yes, we shall be talking with him, thinking about a day. in relation to the association of district council's erm proposition, that was a development package, and obviously groups want to meet in time to look at that, so we'll see if we can find some more information on that one. i think it's really quite heartening to see so many aspects that the city council are already taking notice of, and really are already putting it into their policies to view the environment as something precious, something we've got to look after, but you're warning us not to be too complacent aren't you? we haven't got all the answers, oh yes. we haven't got it all right. it's very heartening that the a t c are actually looking to us to do some work with them, and that they actually think that oxford is moving forward in the right direction, and that they actually want to come and share some of our knowledge. erm obviously, as it's being passed on to groups, we can't make any decision at the moment on whether we think it's a good thing or not, we don't get the opportunity to endorse it all, like today. but it's certainly really is a feather in the cap for oxford, and specifically of the environment county department . i'd just want to say a word of thanks. i mean, we've been quite aware that oxford city council's quite a good, always been quite a good environmental council, and erm the fact that this is going through is good news. i'd like to thank peter for his enthusiasm, and all the rest of the council for taking it on board. no, but the working out of the details will come through this so and just note the situation at the end we'll have to find a suitable date for instance presumably, it, once we've found a date the notes for this committee will be oh yes, yes indeed item 9. didcot power station visit. that brings to mind the fact that at that meeting, two people at least, at least two of the co-opted members asked if there was a pollution sub-committee during this year, you know, during the year that finishes in may, and i'm afraid they were told no, because it wasn't in council diary. this is the date of today, it wasn't in. i'm sure i told you there wasn't another meeting when you asked me, and i gather there's been a bit of a problem as well for other people. it's because it wasn't printed. so i do apologise for the confusion. it's also confused a considerable number of other people back at because very few have come down today, but i'm sorry that we've . page 15. very, very concise. it's good isn't it! really good this. but a few mistakes. do we need to correct them, or do we just leave them be. up to you really chair, i mean they're not signed in any way, so if you want to i can you know get them amended. i think it would be better if we did, because these are , so it was silly little things, like the top of page 16, little 's', and the sentence is certainly catherine, not cerainly. actually it's funny, it's nice to know people are human! erm page 17 17, nationa erm sort of half way down, it should be flue gas rather than fuel. it's the typewriter got . and we rather assume that item 3 immediately under that was again f g b and not s d g, because nobody could work out what s d g stands for. f g b, yes, the same as the shortened form we used before. there's one on page 18, it's a quite serious mistake, second sentence says’ didcot was being considered for the installation of fgd equipment’, i think they said it wasn't. yes, that's right, i'd like to raise a separate point on that later on rather than the accuracy ones for this, do the accuracy ones first. but for those other people who were actually at the meeting agreed didcot are not considering this step. i think from my reflection, they did say they were at some stage in the future, they've not ruled it out. it depends on you, in what context you're looking at it, the timescale of that, but they haven't ruled it out completely. i think the answer is, not in the foreseeable future. ah, yes. basically, they haven't got the space anyway. that's right. can i perhaps to that point raise an issue that we discussed at the meeting, and that was this whole point about de-sulphurisation, and use of low sulphur coal. i don't know if you're aware that using low sulphur coal, reduces only by 50% whereas if you use the other method it reduces by 90%, and what, in fact, didcot are doing by that, is really not giving us a very good service. and to top it, they are actually importing their coal which comes from africa, which is another aspect . however, whatever, the reason why i mention it, i do notice that green peace are thinking of, perhaps some members saw it in the press, did you, that green peace are making a formal complaint to the european commission about switching from de-sulphurisation to importing low sulphur coal, and it may be something that we should focus in on as well. perhaps we should contact our m e p, i don't know if we've ever done that. what a good idea, ask him what their view is, ask him what his view is. and he ought to be terribly concerned about the acid rain that's falling on europe as well as what's happening i think that's right and there's also something else that i forgot to bring up and that is that they're trying to find new ways of removing the gases, and they reckoned that in 2 years there's going to be an electrical method, an electrical filter, and the lab is 99% efficient. so i don't know if there's any way we can pressurise instead of using this flue gas desulphurisation? yes, because the snag is with that is that it means the vast amount of , and then the gypsum that is produced has got to be disposed of hasn't it, so that the limestone is mined and then they've got to get rid of the gypsum. well, it is used in building. yes, but this implies that it's the consumption of limestone and gypsum mentioned in number 7 here. so many labs require that gypsum is produced. britain was actually given a lower standard check, on the basis that we would be using in many places our own coal, which has a quite a high sulphur content, or de-sulphurisation, we were given a lower standard, or a higher standard, or whatever it is, it was more relaxed for britain, and that's why i like the idea of taking this up with the m.e.d., how it'll happen, how it will square in his mind. so, we shall have to get a letter out to him. yes, can we do it by this committee, or do we have to go though . no, we're not spending any money are we? we are on a stamp! well, if we could find the money within the department, could you? just like to clarify the figures, the view, the figure for reductions is 30%. well, sorry jack, i was going on the previous figures which what did they say for didcot, they'd bring the sulphur down from 1.9% to 1.2. at didcot, yes, that's what they said. which, erm if you work it out for didcot, it means they're reducing their sulphur output from 300 tonnes, to 200 tonnes a day, which, the figure of 200 tonnes is still erm terrifying. i'd just like to reiterate peter's point, they have started importing coal from probably south africa, to use at didcot, it would be in the south, we'd be using coal from south africa at didcot. the oxford schools acid rain survey? erm yes, i've got the report of the pilot study, some quite interesting results have come up. erm mainly analyzing it with meterological data, you find that after the dry spell, when the rain does finally arrive it's more acid, and it's affected in . erm and also, i've managed to find some relationships between wind direction and and that shows that the long distance sources of pollution affect the city of oxford as well. when the wind comes from the east it gave a high acidity, and also one day it was coming from the south, which maybe is local fall-out from didcot. i must emphasise that these conclusions are quite tentative, because of the lack of data, hopefully as we carry on, and maybe get more schools involved, we'll get a bigger set of data, then we can actually do some statistical analysis, and, to be more certain of the results, but it shows general patterns that we'd expect, so it makes, it shows that it's quite easy for the schoolchildren, and it fits in very well with their geography courses, and the new g c s e curriculum. erm so now we started up the long term survey, and we've now got 10 schools taking part, and they're starting next week, and they'll be carrying on in the same way as they were the pilot survey, taking the same measurements. we were originally going to do weekly measurements, but i found on my own monitoring that you won't get much variation. it provides us with the data, but school children will probably lose interest, so i've decided to keep them going with the , and they're quite happy about that. and we're also going to set up our own site, which we'll be able to carry on on a daily basis throughout the year, so obviously the schools can't do it during the holidays. erm there was also some interest shown by the radcliffe met. office, who are setting up a permanent acid rain monitor as well, so then we'd have to, so then i've got to get back in touch with that person. the pilot survey showed some monitoring, further standardisation of the equipment was essential, mainly though, i'm going to make sure all schools have got the same pipes and connector and i'm going to give them some solutions to test because there was a bit of variation between schools, and there will be variation geographically, so i want to be able to have a measure of any error that will be involved as well. and i then want to be able to collect information on sources of pollution around their sites, if they notice particularly busy roads, things like that. thank you very much, i'm sure the committee would like to join with me to congratulate you both on the survey and on the very interesting report that you've actually provided. it really must make the school children feel that they've really done some important research. the, for us as members to have all these beautiful diagrams, it really makes a tremendous difference. it really is very nice, it means you can understand it without a science degree! yes well, it's very pretty. and i gather that it hasn't cost the department too much money. don't know about that! it's about £20 a school, or just under really, for the equipment. can i make a suggestion? you give some blanks for them to check on? is it possible to arrange that they be given blanks and don't know which are the blanks and which are the real, because otherwise there's a risk after you've done this the schools will suspect that they're low, and therefore they will add a little on to their blank or something like that. yes, well, it's just work thinking about, you might be able to eliminate that risk. i'm very pleased to see this report. i originally had this idea through the workers union in manchester, and i was wondering if there were any comparative studies that were happening at the same time, and that would be really interesting to see how oxford compares to other areas. there are, yes are you going to mention your idea of the environmental day? oh yes, that was another thing. i though it might be useful to get the school children together to discuss the results. wonderful! i don't know if this is a good space to do it, or when you're in the middle of setting up. but we were discussing the results from the environmental day at st edwards. there's a problem really, of separate, the schools are all separate. sometimes i don't get time to go anywhere properly, you know, it's all enthusiasm at the start . they do get a copy of this, don't they? each school gets a copy of this report. yes. well, what will happen is that they'll use that to analyse this next time. that's it. i thought it was very interesting indeed all the information, and obviously i think one question is which schools are now going to be called in that weren't here before, and will that lead to a better distribution of collection points across the city? i notice that we had two stations in east oxford, whereas in fact this one left west oxford out of it altogether. and you had one close to the city council, one is very close to the st edward school one, was that for deliberate reasons. i didn't know if you were comparing it at the end. it's who we managed to get contacts with. this one has got just about every secondary school in oxford, county secondary school on it, so it's just where the schools are really. so are we going to in west oxford now. can i let you know. i'm trying to think where is the secondary school in west oxford. well, there isn't, i mean that's the problem. you are using middle school sites aren't you? there's various middle schools in west oxford, so maybe i should try and contact the school and get them otherwise, i mean, the possibility otherwise is oxford city council having a site in west oxford, to fill that gap. i'll investigate that. chair, the point about the schools is that we could put that information in the minutes for the next meeting, schools that are participating in the survey. so we could be aware of which ones you could put it in the bulletin, how about the bulletin, in the city secretary's bulletin. yes, i mean you could put it in the minutes, but also it would be quick at the next meeting of this sub-committee is after the election, it'll be some time in june, so a quick way of dealing with it would be to put it in the bulletin, yes, but also, but i'll put it in the minutes, as well. yes, it has a wider circulation, other members read it. there is a school in ferry hinksey road isn't there, a middle school i think, so that's the only one i know. the thing i'd really like is a glossary of terms. what d what do you want to know? can you tell me what your first er job was? in the quarry? what you were employed as? oh er i i've only been erm i've only had one job. i mean er you know, i i was went in as a mechanical fitter and er stayed as such, getting sort of bigger and more responsibl bilities as i went grew up. that's all and then i i i was looked after the production machinery for about fifteen years the top here. i was doing the the new developments as the years went by of course, we didn't stay still for long . can you can you give me some idea of erm w what it was like to start in the quarry as an apprentice? w well erm you mean from the day one started sort of thing? yes. er well er one went up we we the fitting shop you see, was at . erm the it was about i should imagine well guess, three years old back then. cos two companies had amalgamated and built one fitting shop. . the works and the people had sort of amalgamated and so they used the one place where they had a fitting shop. did away with one at in at this end, the new quarry. and er b built a bigger shop, a more modern one. er of course one went, started work, very nervous, and er thought that everybody was sort of putting a tape measure and er oh to tell you the t truth i i didn't know well i knew there was one apprentice been there about twelve months or nearly twelve months . they were younger than myself and er we'd been at but er we'd been at together. we'd started at the same time. and er of course, one felt a little more a little happier after sort of meeting someone you know because it's quite and i was very shy at that at that time. and er of course everybody there were only about what half a dozen fitters in those days and erm er as a mark of their profession or trade in those days, they used to wear a white collar you know, with out a tie. and er they er well er what shall we say,w we we have got introduc people introduced themselves and asked who i was and who my family was and all that's the usual thing you know. was that important? was that considered important? oh yes, they course the there was then er er relatives were then they sort of knew there were some who knew someone or cousin of whatever . i mean there were so many h well really whole families working in the quarry in various parts of the quarry you see. and erm those erm oh and then i was told which p put me off rather. er by the man who or one of the men who swept the shop and kept it clean and all the the the one of the labourers, that my job was to one of my jobs was to make the tea for the men. so that put me off a bit. was it true ? and i thought oh yes, yes. and fetch water for them to wash and that. and erm so really three times a day i had to er make tea. er of course it took a bit of time to learn as to er you know the the rotation who the to take the tea from various men's buckets, they was buckets, or wher wherever they had their stuff in their bags. and there weren't so many bags carried in those days as there were in later years, you know, the sort of er haversack thing. and er having to er knowing you know which and what time. i mean if er that w you you'd had it if if you w ruined for life if you er took one man's see but served two teas. er say er yeah within say er two days or worse still, you could it the same day actually, because they used to have those erm er have you seen them, those an oval tin with two ends, er it was split in the middle. have you seen them? yeah. i've got one somewhere in the shed here. because you could i mean you could do the empty one tin in a day really . and er tea and sugar. but th the thing was that there was a mess room outside the fitting shop actually, but there wasn't much room there because er men from other jobs, er they p from outside, used to go there and eat. so the our men er the fitters, had erm a table in the shop itself. erm with in a corner sort of thing with a thing around it and you know. it was well i didn't see much sense in that either but er i mean if they were eating on the j er eating on the job didn't give you a break at all. but erm anyway, the erm and some of the men, used to go the older men, used to go and er to the smithy and cos er the our the s fitting shop had a three fires at one end you see, where the am blacksmiths were. oh they weren't blacksmiths in in the ordinary sense of the word, they weren't quarry blacksmiths as such because they were more or less engine smiths you see. yeah. they had to make and shape things for us well for for the fitters, the machine and that you know. they they were w what would be called in the navy and that er engine smiths. cos they worked they didn't bash er ham sledge hammers and things like a shop and the gear for the quarry men as such, they cos that was the usual work of the erm the blacksmiths outside in the quarry itself you know, in the b on the in the various banks. there was one, usually one blacksmith per bank really. w w w were these were these smiths still primarily concerned with forging? yes. were they? they they they did the the forge work and all that you see, and they looked after erm the er the inclined brakes what we call the brake. i haven't i haven't seen heard another name for them really. erm they looked after the w the ropes and er there was one one blacksmith, where he used to go on his rounds and check check the wire ropes and the hooks and that on the inclines you know. test them for sa well that the insurance and the i suppose er the the the erm er what is it? the mining er er you know the there's a a body which looks after the mining oh the inspectorate? the inspectorate er men i don't know whether it's the same as the one that looked after the coal field and all that, but erm we we had an inspector coming round every so often anyway. and erm the the that was part part of their work you see,the these blacksmiths. and there were ooh a couple of what? a couple of dozen of these brakes or more. no at least a couple of dozen,working at that time. so they were kept really busy. some of them were kept really busy just er looking after the brakes and and they they had to er check the er the erm hooks. they used to take the hooks off the wagon you see, there were two hooks, one each end of the the wagons that they used on the incline. and then they were put they were er put er in the fire wire brushed and all that and looked and inspected for cracks you see. and that that came round er i mean they were stamped and er the turn you know the each i i don't i don't remember what what they were examined, but er th you know the the that was the law that they had to be . there were piles of them in the smithy anyway. that had been through the fire and they were taken out and you know whoever. and h well, no, they were put on the wagons actually. which were built in the wagon shops. and erm can you give me some idea of some of the other trades that were represented in the er in the shop? oh erm they erm they did a lot of the work that were well they helped out at least, they they used to make wearing plates for the mills and that for the chutes and that. you see. erm oh they what else? erm oh there were a thousand and one things i i can't really erm you know they they were always they were at it hammer and tongs you know they had er s what would be called something similar to a steam hammer and you know. did they? to do the job, yeah. er you know the the they had a f what was it? four hundred weight, pneumatic hammer. so you can imagine the the the the he the amount of heavy work that they had as well. did they ever have a foundry? did they have a no er well, no er not not that i remember. but erm i remember er h having i was quite interested actually, er there was er a sort of loft in the stores. and there were patterns up in this store you see. mm. and i but i couldn't get up at them, the the storekeeper was fairly strict with us youngsters and he used to chase us. but erm they were oh m er wooden er gear wheels, of all sizes and such things, you know. up in this loft say. so i don't know whether they'd been sending them away, to be er as patterns to some other firm or what, but there was quite a quant there was er a quantity of of casting sand you know black stuff that you use. around the the the shop so, obviously they'd been either been casting brass, at some time or other. obviously . they didn't do i i understand that the the quarries at and and those places used to cast their own stuff, but erm i i haven't i never heard of them actually casting anything erm ferrous anyway. but erm the what we o very often did was er we used to run our own own bearings with white metal. and we had er a special erm furnace for that. and er we used to run well most of our bearings, actually er white metal bearings and machine them afterwards. and er we cast during the dark days of the war,when toys weren't available, we a few older blokes er apprentices used to i remember being at it for a couple of hard week we had a hard week, well evening during the evenings anyway. er working, sweating like like er real steel men,ca turning out soldiers and er and erm e somebody'd got hold of a mould of these er er toy soldiers you know, the old er lead soldiers that er yeah. they used to come out in threes i think moulds. and some aero aero aeroplane erm g er er what er i think they were if i remember rightly, they were the er oh dear. forget the name of the plane now for the moment. yes well. there were hundred of them flying round the end of the during the war. oh, designed for the coastguard. er coastal command. oh dear, never mind. but we you know, one was one would be boiling the the white metal, we'd we'd fixed on the and er one would be boiling and pouring the stuff and the other cutting y you know breaking up the the mould sort of thing and piling the stuff out and as fast as we were piling them up, some beggar was creeping in and stealing them . oh dear. you know, in actual fact, one of the men working in the in the in the carpenter's shop. he was he'd been hurt that was the usu that's why some of the men did. he'd been er had an accident in the quarry some time ago and he was working in the helping as a mate or something in the carpenter's shop and he he must have been h must have had his hands in our pile of finished products and er well partly finished products and er he er he was caught one of the cos er these castings there was a an edge to them you know,the joint of the the mould that came together sort of thing. they had to be filed clean. this beggar had come in to the fitting shop,corner at the back corner, where he shouldn't have been. i mean he wasn't supposed to be in the fitting shop anyways. so the the manager our greatest enemy, we used to know when he started from the house in the morning actually by quarry that er he was coming, but the on this particular day anyway, somebody had slipped up somewhere. and he saw this bloke you see, where he shouldn't have been. er filing away. and he had this this erm casting of a plane you know he was cleaning up the edges gave the game away of course then . oh dear. anyway we i think we supplied dozens of youngs kids that had no toys during the war. you know. . erm yes well th that's the only erm casting you know, that we did. bearings for for you know, shafts mills really the old type crushers in mills that they were really old fashioned crushers. and they had to be the bearings had to be either you had to have a s a set ready at all times sort of thing you know so a spare set. erm yeah oh the bearings we we they usually were bought from they were american er brass bearings, huge brass things you know. they used to cost about two hundred pounds in those days and that was a heck of a sum in those days you know that sort of thing, how much they cost and had to be careful of them and all that. and erm the other crusher, the buchanan crusher up in in here, the the the primary crusher, the american one. well that that used to be sent away the o the main bearing the main er jaw bearing that was on the . it was usually about six was it? er somewhere about aye getting on for five five foot long. erm th that was sent away to london white metal that that that was quite a costly affair as well. that's the one that you see in this er book you know.. is that the one which was having the ? yes cuts in it. yes yes. yes. and erm the old chief that designed er er erm a boring bath for it for boring that. they they didn't they they just cast them roughly. well not roughly i mean they i mean they didn't sort of finish them off w wherever they was s sent to in whatever the firm i i i don't know the name of the firm, i was i wasn't involved in didn't bother as long as the job was done. and erm the he made a boring bath so that the whole block it it was a massive thing you know, that that that had to be . i should imagine weighed somewhere about five six hundredweight. the capping. cos of the design of this crusher affair, the whole weight was carried on the c what could be the bap of the bearing you know, the bearing cap. the whole lot down you see. oh i see. on the on the you there was only the was only er three quarter of an inch out of centre sort of thing you know, but the shaft weighed ten tonne and you have this huge and it just l revolved of course and and the whole lot revolved under this cap. so the whole weight of the whole er the gear that actually sent the crusher going and made it so the jaws the swing jaw swing and all that, was er hanging on the cap you see. it didn't matter, the other half didn't matter because it didn't come into contact really with the with the shaft. and erm the oh he'd made i'm getting er losing my track. but er he'd made er a boring bath from the chassis of a steam engine. there was a spare one lying around we'd finished u er stopped using them during the war some time during the war. cos coal was hard to get and all that. and er gone on to diesel. and this old chassis had been built up so that this bearing lay on that and it was turned by and electric motor and all that and the boring bar went tool went and bored this bearing out and travelled along on its own its own it was fed off course. you know it was a quite a a brilliant idea really . cos he was a brilliant man actually my my boss er my chief at the time. he was the erm he came from anglesey. and he'd been apprenticed in liverpool with a firm called they were ship repairers in liverpool. and er i suppose he he'd gone there when he was about thirteen fourteen and er he came from a family from where was it . and some of his rel relatives they farmed but some of his relatives were blacksmiths as well you see. so he'd sort of had a well i suppose he'd messed around helped and played about in the smithy. before he even started erm when he before he went to liverpool as an apprentice. but he was a brilliant man he was years ahead of his time really. erm ingersoll rand w wanted him in america. he was offered a job in america with ingersoll rand but he wouldn't go. and erm he was by the way he was the er step erm father in law of the man who erm owned who was the erm building firm er in er er oh dear they've gone now. it's just been taken over by you know, it's gone into the big big time er oh dear me, i forget his name now. name of the man. g anyway oh er and er er he had a son who was a a dentist in . john quite a well known dent he was a very good dentist. i suppose he he erm william, william owen old chief. he used to bring his tools up during the war to er to er so be seen to you know. cos they they were hard to get . . oh yes . and er one of the men that was helping the old man to to do something, to repair the the these tools you know, and he he'd gone to the stores to get something and leaning over the counter to get something er er to sort of talk as one goes on a on a counter lean he was leaning a on the counter, and he erm the the the storeman he was a tough little beggar, and he said, i've got a i've got a i've got a toothache. he says. and asked him you know, erm which one is it? and the other silly beggar opened his mouth and pointed to a tooth you know. and he just dived in there and and got hold of it these tools er once you get a hold of those things you know they they're pretty they're fantastic you they won't. i mean them they're designed to er so that they don't slip or anything. and he held on the handle and he pulled the ruddy tooth out. but he pulled thing was sorry thing was that he pulled the one next to the one that he had a toothache in . wow . was tough, he's still alive in . er couldn't have done him any harm. and er no but erm that's how the the old chief . erm as i say he was a he was brilliant man er i mean we all we i'm about one of the last of the ones that were taught under him. i mean we were very fortunate in having been app er apprenticed under him you see. were you were you aware, before you went there, that erm you were going into you were going to serve under someone who was rather talented? well i'd heard of him yes. but i was er here i was one of the first people have forgotten that there was such a thing as a fitting shop in you know, in . and i started a fashion really in going, cos no-one had er thought of the thing for many many many years. and erm later on let's see f when the war started and i mean they wanted cheap labour and all that, there was room for apprentice. several boys went to the fi to the fitting shop you see but the i'd started i claimed to have started i mean it's i mean there's no credit to me but at least i was the first you know i'd really started the thing you know. where had they come from before then? oh usually. yes. yes. yes. they knew more about it yes. was the well i suppose they had first claim in . that sort of thing yeah. but they came with the chief being an anglesey man you see, they came from anglesey as well to erm they used to come a lot in and erm as apprentices you know and er aye no, the ol same old game again that er we in wales seem to inherit it's in i suppose it's in the b b c and everywhere isn't it. it's not what you know, it's who you know. and er somebody's got a relative somewhere . i mean happened even even with the monarchy and all that most welsh people ran ran england when they didn't have it really did they . these families that left wales to help out with the tudor and all that. erm i still er think i think they're still running britain aren't they. gone way out i've gone gone through to get to to llandudno. erm th this tea making was a a er job of course there was a a break at nine o'clock you see. cos we started at at half past seven. i used to catch a bus ten to seven, down when the in those days. never been late in my life. erm the erm course the the blasting was on at nine. they used to blast, first blasting at nine o'clock, throughout the quarry you see so everybody had to go in so that was an excuse for a break. about ten minutes break. then cos you had er three warnings you got five minutes before and er then you had a the erm final warning and then the blasting and the they give you the all clear. i mean it took about ten minutes, quarter of an hour altogether. so if these beggars up at the top it was had been er thought out had a break well er it was alri =right for the others working down in the bottom to have a a break. so nine o'clock break. make the tea, go round the used to take about three helpings of tea to make the the the bottle . i remember we i had this sort of enamel brown enamel jug, ooh it was mm must have been somewhere about four. mm couple of pints at least eh. oh more three pints i'm sure. er and erm i used to put it in this and go to out into the mess room outside where they there was a cook and it was a very grand name for a person you know, a cook. it's almost as grand as a chef these days isn't it. the bloke who sits behind the ship in the chip shop. banging that basket he had they have,erm and er the er used to go there er and there was a boil or was it er er an old fashioned i don't know. have you se have you seen them the old fashioned boilers they used to have? er sort of yes, half spherical, yes. cast iron. built er with bricks built round it and er a tap we used to have a tap on it you see. and the cook in that mess room and the cook was always a youngster who started in the quarry. that's the way you started, up a ladder to the to be a managing director . a cook. you know like like the this thing about every soldier having a a a field marshall's baton in his knapsack . anyway erm they started at well you know quite an easy job but the the er s their wage was about sev i i i i forget. i d i wouldn't know. i think my my starting salary at fifteen was seven and six. out of that i had to find, threepence a day erm bus fare. excuse me. and we worked six w six i mean we worked saturday mornings you know, six o'clock. plus er going up going to you know, all that. sos there wasn't much left of the seven and six to kee feed me and all that . and er i think after and when i became sixteen that er had to start paying your your m paying the union i had to join the union as a junior member you know. and er hospital fund and all this business. anyway erm so you . our standard of living well our standard of living was alright. i mean er didn't bring much home. and er the cook i think the boys e had about er started on ten shillings you know, ten shillings a week. erm but er that was this boy's job and then he used to er you know, scrub the tables in the rest room and of course boil the water first thing in the morning. and er wash the cups and and he used to have to go running er down with messages down to or down to the head office rather that we had an office in where where our fitting shop was where there was a draughtsman's office. and a store, a store a sort of store clerk. cos we had other people concerned with the stores down in the head office as well, the buyers and . and a couple of young clerks, that's where they bred their clerks for the future use sort of thing you know. i see. and this cook had to go down and carry messages back and forth and all that was his job as cook. not he he couldn't handle a a roast duck or er couldn't roast a duck or anything like that you know. or make orange sauce or er anything of that sort . er and i don't think any other most of them started and they're still here some of them. er still roast a duck any more than i can. well er not without a a book of instructions anyhow beside me anyway. er anyway the that was the cook's job and that was my job, i used to sort of go across and fetch this tea and have it ready by the time the men gave up work at nine o'clock. but er i used to go i didn't eat with the men you weren't allowed to eat with the men you see, it was only the full men that sat round this table well that was half about eight of them you see. well it was the same no distinction at all in that sense, but er you know we were sort of they had more serious things to talk about than i wan er you know i knew the cook, er couple of o other apprentices from the carpenters shop we used to go into the main th there was no-one to keep an eye on us in the in the mess-room you see, no-one to tell us. so we could play. and erm at the same time there was an old mill there as well, with an old er engine room. which had apparently been a a steam there had been a steam engine turning this er mill crushing mill and er er i remember there was a name in in this engine it was queen of the valley. and erm we used to go and play in that sort of you know do the things that boys usually do. sort of oh we used to risk our necks walking across the ruddy this mill was a bit of a wreck actually and we used to go playing in places where we shouldn't have really. anyway, that's beside the point. but erm and then at during er before lunch and all that i used to have to go take a bucket and go to the smithy and erm as you may know, there's a a cooling er tank beside in the in er beside every every every erm blacksmith's fire and er you know to bo keep the er no t no to keep the nozzle of the of the blower? blower going you see. oh. how do you do? how do you do? hi. and this co er and used to get w hot water from this tank you see, lift it out with a ooh with some sort with a ladle actually. er and er put it in the bucket and get the right temperature. up my elbow and er anyway put it used to take it back to the shop and er well i was still inside the shop, down to a certain place in the shop and put it on a on a stand and then there'd be a on that stand, beside the bucket, was a a box of not lux not lux soap but er yellow soap. oh yes. in welsh. and erm slabs of it it had been cut like er it looked you know if you sort of cut lard or something like that. no you don't belong to that age either do you. erm you know you get it in packets now anyway. but er you know used to sli cut it out of er big chunks. but er there's be lump of this y yellow er stuff you know. and beside that again, another box full of erm well partly full depended on what time of the week it was. erm dust quarry dust and er very very fine chippings you know. so you got a handful of this yellow soap. and er rubbed it and it was quite very hard you know. and er put a dollop er dipped your hand into this the grit as well started rubbing using the water we'd got. some hot water. and see my hands they they they're quite they're they're exactly like a er well shall we say an educated person's hand a person who's spent his life working behind a desk. but you know it's funny how why it was so i mean the grit and those were quite sharp you know you you'd have thought that it would have taken your skin but then it was ideal stuff for getting the grease the you know the dirt and i mean the the greasy dirt away. it's easy enough to dirt . that was the method that we used and i didn't i never heard i didn't hear of dermatitis or anything until well twenty five years afterwards. erm i mean the one could very easily have have got er some form of dermatitis with all the you know various oils and stuff that we had to put our hands in. but erm and all the old mill for milling that we used to used i mean kept our hands clean anyway. so that was one job a and then we had a big used to beg for a an old sack from the stores and open that out and er i used to wash them wash it and get it very soft and clean and hang that up and that's the way used to clean and keep ourselves cl hands clean . and er but for all this, erm funny enough we we had er a fair in twice a year. we haven't had one for oh many what fifteen, twenty years a co er there used to be a couple of women used to come to sell rock. up to about twen they kept the thing going their pitch going i suppose twen to about twenty years ago. but we had a a spring fair in april and the other in october. i think so. and the fair was on the first of october. somewhere round that time. i i'd er you know the older men would tell you. cos i i didn't sort of go by fairs and things like that, i belonged to a different generation. erm but erm come the time had come for for the fair let's say the the the spring fair. i'd get quite a surprise because very s small number of men in the shop. i get about shillings eight and six, nine bob pocket money. fair money they used to call it you see. mhm. er i know er perhaps i was er civil or obedient or whatever, i don't know but er i i they u they used to have this this collection for the for supposedly for carrying the water, i don't know. but erm er it was a a nice sum to be to take with you to the fair . you know. er because it was more than a weeks wages . to spend evening. and used to happen twice a year and erm sometimes somebody'd remember my birthday or find that i had my birthday or and at christmas time we used to get some money. and this was out of a you know er i mean they were only what oh couldn't be more than about six eight people working in the well not actually fitters but er you know, they were involved within the shop sort of thing. i don't know how many t other people were approached in this collection, i don't know. but erm they were you know they were exceedingly kind really. yeah they were very kind too. cos their salary we we well their wages weren't much. they i believe that er a craftsman's wage was somewhere they'd a take home pay at the end of the fortnight. you'll notice that i say end of the fortnight, that was the settling time . er was three guineas. was it? it was one and three an hour. the craftsman and fitter's rate in those days. and a labourer's rate was eleven pence an hour. mm. wh what erm what ye what year would this be that you sort of s i don't k nineteen thirty seven maybe? thirty seven? yeah. mm. yeah. and erm you know it was a a bad time really b you know it was the thirties i mean people say it's bad now but er i don't think it's it's as bad now as it was then. i know the unemployment figures may be higher and all this business, but erm i mean er a single person during those days, er say a young man in his teens, working would been s stopped in the quarry. they were bad times, they used to stop. er they were very fair er if i may bring in er this has nothing to do with my er well no it has as well. you know friends of mine, i knew them. erm they were quite fair the the in this quarry then. cos if it was slack or anything they they used to stop the bachelors first you know. i see. er you know i i i af i mean after i didn't think anything of it, and in those days i was too young of course to think of th things like that. but thinking back i mean they they were it was very good of them really you know,the they were very fair. er in the way that they and they sort of well i suppose it was the situation in which the quarries you know sort of or and . and er the foreman and bosses that knew people and they knew the circumstances and i suppose they put a word in and erm you know men were sort of stopped because er i mean, if a man had a house full of children or something, he'd probably be the very last you know before he was sort of forced to g you know sacked or wh and i mean they weren't sacked in a sense, they was always ready there was a place ready for them to come back to there. but erm so laid off i suppose would be a more appropriate way of s of putting it. so that it was it was generally thought of as being a fair system ? yes. in the main i i should think yes. you know you know erm a young man i mean it was er er reasonable wasn't it for a a single man to be laid off before a married man with family family responsibilities. and er generally er with families being larger er in those days, erm there'd be perhaps another couple of sons working or or something like to help. make a family income you know or or increase the family income. or so they could all eat at least. and erm no well as i say, erm i think they were pretty fair. i mean f i d i doubt whether firms would do it these days eh? it wouldn't be considered fair today anyway. no the union would step in probably and er say that er last in er first out or some ruddy mm. nonsense like that eh? but that's the memory i have of it eh? wh when you went in as an apprentice, did you have any i i idea of what the job was. what it entailed? oh yes, erm you know, having been brought up w in a you could almost say a quarrying atmosphere that's the right er expression but erm i mean one knew what w went on in the quarry you know. erm mind you it was really a step onto something else that as far as i was concerned in those days i meant o go to sea of course and er that was the best place you could have er to serve an apprenticeship because everything er i mean it was one of the as everything was starting to get specialized in in other works nowadays it's gone completely now. but erm we had a sort of a spectrum you know it covered such a wide well area if you like of er of engineering that one wouldn't have had a chance to to have a any contact with in in any other works, you'd be doing as one certain sphere you know a certain type of work, and there you are you that's your lot eh? but we covered everything you know, steam engines and diesel engines and oh crushers and construction work and development and pneumatic gear, compressors and oh any damn thing that went going. we made everything ourselves more or less. and had a hand in oh designing really there. we were always taught this er comes back again. i think er you know this our our boss, er who mr as he was called he was given his full title of er mr william owen , then. i mean er much more should have been something should have been aye he's well worth er within the engineering world at least, well worth looking into his life really. because he he he's done a a you know he he he's been a a a a what shall i say, a well he's done a lot really to to to to to promote erm interest in engineering and all that and and he's done a lot in helping er to young men to become engineers and that you know. he he he's erm really er the results of his his interest in teaching. er north wales you know have have benefited. firms in north wales here along the coast which came after the war of course. can you sort of amplify that if you can? well as i told you to begin with, he he he he must he was a man was er years ahead of his tim really. i mean and he he although he er he wasn't a graduate or anything like that i mean he he was a brilliant engineer. his ideas are as i they they say that he was er i don't know how much truth i that he was the first that he patented and devised the first rotating drilling machine. rock drilling machine you see. cos the f the the the they did have pneumatic drilling machines quarries. for ooh from beginning of the century i suppose. but they were only hammers in a sense. they only hammered the they the the they didn't rotate. i see. they just r r rammed their way and you had an man the they had a man they tell me i i've never seen one but erm this was as far as i can make out er by the they had a man standing by you see with a a spanner and er gave it a quarter turn every time it hammered the the drill sort of hit the rock, went into the and hammered. they had to give it a quarter turn you see with a spanner. but erm that old the a and b we used to call them actually. a and b. erm there was no dis disrespect but a and b and er he'd erm he devised a method he what he did he rifled the inside of the the piston. he rifled the inside of the the the the cylinder and the piston was rifled as well, you know slightly ribbed, so as it went forward it turned you see. came back and there was a er it couldn't turn cos there was erm oh dear i'm forgetting my engineering terms but er you know it's a that's the . and that's this is er i think i've already told you that he was offered a job with ingersoll rand which were the main er people that dealt with air and air products in the old days. the american firm. they tried to get him to america you see. but he wouldn't go there. william didn't want to take his overalls off. because he he liked to work with his hands. yes he was a heck of a man. he could he was a brilliant machinist and er oh crikey i've seen him turn out a a three throw er crankshaft within a couple of days er you know without any precise measuring and and and in fact he just sort of put his roll on on on a on the shaft he was turning and just sort of gave him an idea as to i mean his eye was almost as good as many a bloke's measur measurement with a rule. but er a three throw crankshaft for a bump you know couple of days to erm he was a heck of a man. and he dis we had i haven't told you er didn't tell you or h i er don't think i've told you have i, that we did have a a chemist in the quarry you know. full time chemist. would he be analyzing samples? yeah analyzing yes. mr his name was. and he apparently was a very very nice man too er i mean he was i mean er er er er a nice disposition i mean yeah. they stand out . and er oh he he was he erm during the war now come nineteen thirty nine and that stale period when er there was nothing doing really in france, between the time that er our expedition to the to the maginot line and all that. er he went over s there was a plane laid on for him and he was ve went over very often to advise them on fortifications on all their concrete fortifications in france. did he? yes yeah. very well thought off actually. and he designed some er i remember them being built. erm air raid shelters. built to his design under the rock face up at the top here in . and er concrete and all stuff. and er rock er dropped use that expression, they used they were both right at the at the foot of the quarry face or precipice or whatever somewhere around a hundred foot high and then th they blasted the top see and dropped a whole fall. a fall is what we call you know a bundle of rock. rock there. ah excuse me. and erm on this er structure and obviously there wasn't a everything was fine inside it. mind you, no-one volunteered to stay inside when it was . but erm all the intact do you ever go bo bowling? yeah. any good? bowling? yeah. am i any good? yeah. yeah, i'm quite good. i'm better than you. what's your average? okay, okay what's your average score over a hundred and fifty then. oh yeah sure a hundred and fifty. the shooters. my average is about ninety. ninety to a hundred. average what? i have bowling. my lowest ever was like forty. my lowest was sixty i always get between ninety five and a hundred. yes man. what are you talking about? what are you talking about? bowling. bowling. oh. i once got a hundred and forty five, i once got a hundred and forty five with four strikes. i'm so good yeah, he could get a straight, and get sixteen. he'll get twenty. i hate their guts. you can get whatever i did on them. you can get a, you know that hollywood bowl, i've got over, i've got twenty . if you get over a certain number you get a jacket. i know, i've got a jacket. that's good though. a jacket? yea. what jacket that hollywood bowl. is it quite a nice one? yeah. it's the check one innit? no it was diff different, they've got two different types. that's cos like if you get three hundred points you get a jacket. that's wicked man. dwibbly. dwayne dibbly. this is mean. who's still designing? so am i. i'll do it later . did you do anything last week? did you? yes. where, what did you, where did you get it from ? and i'm using this stuff cos it's better. yeah but where did you get it from? what? like i need some stuff, where did you it depends what you want to use? no i mean i my stuff from last week, where did where was it? where was it with yours? all up, all with the stuff we've used already in there in the box? okay. can i have a look at your project? er i need to copy out some stuff. do you need the ? one. yeah, go on, what do say? really? let's just ask the panel if they agree. if we agree what? it's as wide as that. yeah i know, that's what i was worried about, that's what i was thinking. you think? i think of using perspex. well that is acrylic, perspex is just commercial name for the stuff you can see , right? what you need to worry about is thirty seven millimetres long, that's the length is it? yeah. alright. if you'd worked out what forty seven is, can't see any of the uses . yeah. are you sure you don't mean seven ? yeah. a hundred wide, by three it depends what you're going to use it for. go and check those sizes. sir. using a ruler. before the easter holidays you gave, i gave you this kind list and i don't know if you did or it not because i wasn't here last week. no, i didn't. which one is it? this size? er just this? er, ten centimetres by seventeen and a half. right. ten plus a hun hundred by a hundred and seventy five, one centimetre thick, softwood, plywood, chipboard m d f. m d f. morning. this, what length was it? one seven five? two seven five. what do you reckon that thing going on here? yeah. who is that? what do you want to know? robber. yeah. oh, they use all of it. all right. this side? this side, yeah, or that side? that looks better, that's got a better grip though. would you reckon out of ten, yeah? yeah. by ten first, hold that will you? alex, they're going to get you. they're going to get you and the rest of your family. good. like a norwegian hit man, or something. this is a, alex got split. this is, this is the norwegian hit man no, not on me. don't get us wrong, we really do like ah ha. mm. yeah, and that abba love it really. like eric's yeah. he's black, he is really black. he's black and white. oi marc, how much do pay to get cocaine for? i can get if for you for about three pounds for the pure crystals. right it seems to me a lot of people are sitting down, there's five weeks to go, you've got to get it made in that time, assembled, so come on let's get some more cutting lists please. sir is that you should have done this ages ago. i did. i'm sorry, i'm not going to tell you what to do because you are under test, i can't sit down and say do this, do that, you've got to make a decision yourself to go for it. alright? make sure your checklist is used too, check out what you're supposed to be doing. colin, you made a decision? try again. mark, mark. where's tony? over there. sir? sir? you've missed quite a few haven't you? don't miss any more because it's going to be difficult fitting the extra time aft excuse me. afterwards. three i think. three or four lessons? three. that's cos you were bunking. oh yeah. it's a bit i was thinking of doing it wider. as long as it locks. shorter. about me. as long as it go when you push down it locks it's fine. i'll just get james a very abnormal person. james 's got well small dick, and he's got no pubes. by the way ca me i've got this ah ah ah, and as for mike . what's your final design? huh? what's your final design. got one yet have you, that's my idea, you got that from me. that? oh sure i did. you did. i can't get this right. what was that you said? nothing. james, who's he laughing at? what have you been saying? james. alex please . james fancies zoe . does he? dunno. he does, does she? no. does she? yeah. zoe fancies james. but does james fancy no. no don't. wicked. no we've got some wicked stuff here. don't come all, don't come fresh man. no i'd come all over the place personally. you're just sick alex. sorry? that's how, what what we're supposed to do, you must be sort of because you're a nice person because you're dickhead. can we move . here man. some crack. no i've got cocaine. same thing. i know. alex, is it true that your dad sexually assaults you? no, but i've heard yours does. you can always dream. suffer, suffer. you cut these to your own lengths, okay? alright, another one. and you went and fell over and almost broke his leg on his bike really? whacked his head and his head was bleeding, and it was a leaf. ah. a leaf could be a stone. you don't know what it is. god. well people in this school, i hope you like it. listen. oh wow, brilliant. that's thirty millimetres down uh oh, faces straight. toby, toby,then you go twenty millimetres. two hundred. two hundred millimetres long by fifty wide. can i borrow your ruler? what? alex. can i borrow that for one lunchtime? no. come on alex, one lunchtime, how long you got it for? did you hear what i said? for a while. how long you got it for? after school. yeah. i've got a date . till tuesday. till tuesday. yeah, i'm having it, i'm having it on tuesday. i'll have it on friday lunchtime . alex, you go home for lunch don't you? can i borrow it at lunchtime i won't be going home for lunch next week, or the rest of this week. i'm surprised i've got any money. you are . they pay about five quid for it. when? you played it yet? oi andy you . it's quite good. what you got in there? what game you got? andy, do you want to borrow streets of rage two? that isn't even funny marc. marc you're just not a funny person. well whose is it toby? his brother beat you up. yeah he will. yeah. he's a really tough, what,twel ten year old? no beat up james. well do you think you're brother could? oh come on, my three year cousin could beat up james. would it do him any good. why aren't you using these bits? so where's your microphone gone? see that's how good it is, a that one, it's not on. don't worry it's not on. when you go home on a lunch time, you don't need it when you go home at lunchtime. i won't be going home for lunchtimes. oh go on, yeah but alex you weren't going, i i'll go down the field and look. pardon? alex i'll be going down the field at lunch. take it to a gig. yeah. rock and roll man. come on america. yeah he's making music. rock and roll great britain. pass as giants. roll, roll, roll the spliff twisted at the end oh jesus. take a look. want to fold the songs? roll, roll, roll, the spliff take a look okay go then. go on roll, roll, roll the spliff twisted at the end, fuck a duck i'm a band man. do your friend. he's not your friend, i am. it was a dare. if he at this moment gave you erm you know a joint you wouldn't here, here revolting. ooh. and he'd be going wow this stuff is going . oi, oi, colin, colin, colin, is that really true, what you said about james? what? in form period. was it true? what, that james is a homo? yeah. i think it might be. what about me? no you, you are a homo. oh. why don't you stop mumbling and speak proper like? speak proper? who? who do you think? you. this has got radio. has it, let's have a look at it. it's got what marc, er alex. a radio. so what so surprising about that? it's got a decent one. here put it on low. a radio oh god give us it. you've got to turn it turn it off. oh you got it man. okay, if this ain't recording, alex alex what? come here. have you seen boys on earth? i've got that. it's good innit? no. i've seen that, it's not very good. it's wicked man. can i go on that? there's lots of blood soaking stuff, you know what i'm saying. you're supposed to kill each other. is that wicked. oh that was right get on to the next there. you don't use a levels, spirit level on c d t. is that why ? is that no it's not. that stuffs not critical, just doesn't matter at all to your design sir if you don't want to do it. is it possible i can have that? yes, one seven twelve by seven by six. divide by seven by six. plywood that is yeah? yeah. is that twelve divide by seven ? it's twelve along seven wide and six high by six high it was. it's got to be twelve innit? i meant, i said twelve by seven by six high, by in thickness that. pardon? cos what i need is like a block of wood . that's six, right? i meant, i don't mean it that thick, i need it about six centimetres . well that's what you're asking for, six. but i mean by, twelve by seven. twelve long, seven wide and six high. what do you want it that big for? it's enormous. it's the block that goes in the middle, when you put down the clamp pushes that along. seventy by sixty? so you want something like that, it's a hundred and twenty long, millimetres seventy wide yeah. by sixty yeah. thick. don't fret i can do that that's all. some of you listen some of you have got a few minutes erm some of you have got a few minutes obviously erm only i'm not going to start anything . er but i am going to take your books in at the end of the lesson so you can perhaps take the last few minutes before just if you'll just erm put the sums at the moment erm just fix in your sheet fix it in and erm check out that you've got everything else up to date okay? so that you know things are all spot on for handing books in. everyone ought to get a . all the ones i've looked at no it it's not it's so small so you won't leave that leave that white. leave that island there's no statistics for that so don't colour it in. there's no statistics for so don't colour it in. i bet you missed it i bet all of you have gone over luxembourg for luxembourg i haven't i haven't. poor old luxembourg's beaten. you you've you've absolutely just gone straight over it i haven't. and forgotten the poor little country. where is it? that one look. that teeny thing there. i left mine open. he's left his open. yes he's quite right very good one of the few. i left mine. you've left it open right. who else hasn't i bet a lot of you have just lumped luxe luxembourg in with germany and france. you have you traitor. no no no. but you can see it. there's not statistic for luxembourg. i was suspect they the same problem with france and germany. there's no there's no ah well now. i wonder. interesting point. switzerland's very yeah they are. what sort of country very what? cold. well in winter. very what? what's switzerland famous for? snow. it's very what? alps. high it's mountainous. it's something to do there's a clue the clue to switzerland is something to do with the way that they make their electricity. hydroelectric power yes. it's a very clean country switzerland oh god. they don't use coal they use do you glue it in sir? eight weeks of games. well you can't help that cos you wanted to do i wanna do cricket. do you? and stuff like that. you've gotta have two operations. crikey. seven. i'm crap at cricket but i like it. oh are we gonna be doing tennis and stuff did he say? that's what we're doing now. are you doing tennis now? oh. that means we'll be doing tennis next. so i might be doing tennis then. tennis is alright. what am i i don't wanna watch the flipping cartoon. god. thunderbirds seeing now. do you ever watch thunderbirds? i've only seen it once. cos i think it's crap. it is the worse programme i've ever seen. yeah it is quite good. i don't like it. i think it's really i don't know why really crap. really is and even crapper. don't think so. but really this could be a bunch of retarded animals walking round kicking people's butts. i don't think so somehow. like i give a crap. i like when my he's weird. why have you seen those. they're decent. my cousin's got those. we go round and play at his house. they're good they are. he's got and it turns into one of those little you know turtles kids like. it's pretty decent. thinking of buying myself one. you're on drugs you know that? that's how it should be. that's how it should be. do it right my friend. you on number eleven? what? are you on number eleven. yeah. god. it's good isn't it? i'm not. have to colour with a pen. i haven't cos i haven't even done it yet. see homework. dunno. did you do it though? yeah. what was it? erm find out information about what? about what what were we doing? i don't know that's why i'm asking you. yeah what did we do last week? erm what did we do last week paul? oh yeah job. what jobs? oh yeah budget. so what we were supposed to keep a note of how much we spent? over a week? alec? alec? what in p t what were we doing more or less about how much we spend. oh i'll just make it up at lunch. i'm on my fourth one. yeah. in pen. yeah but i couldn't i can't cos it's such a bright one. i'll have to do this at home. i hate this . you know that? what? i my game boy. no i don't. oh they need to be lucky. all that . my machinery's weird . we're talking five thousand revs here. per second. er what's that let me. fuel air and coal's the other let me think let me think er er and what else was there i forgotten. heat. heat was it? i thought it was heat but is it a fire or a ? fuel heat and oxygen that's it. air more more likely. fuel heat and air. pure air ah. still gonna muff it up though. you know that stuff he was going on about for special like continuous pressure and all that sort of crap. continuous pressure? well something. well we didn't do any of it. did you come yesterday lunchtime? come where? to the science jig. no. you were in london weren't you? london. oh yeah why nothing why? i was saved by most of it. what with your tape recorder? yeah. recording all conversations that i take part in. she's over there. norwegians are dick heads. don't we know it. you sound wicked. you're burping all over me here. i mean he's a bit thick. you go up to somebody. alright? christ you're recording this. you can tell. you recording? yes. so you mean everything i'm saying is going on tape? yes. so you're recording me? yes. really you lying? you really recording? yes. don't lie. yes. so thick. your like he goes right, switch it on i want to . he's recording it all the time. and he's now going . he's going to cost them at least fifteen quid. what? it's gonna cost him at least fifteen quid for me to wipe it off. may as well make some money. no leave it on and time it. actually i could blackmail what people yeah. and yeah mr 's right hello my tape. you see i've just taped that. i just taped that you know. i can i can blackmail you now. why have you got any batteries on you? yeah. so could i buy them? why? let me see if the batteries . how can you tell? these batteries are crap. buy rechargeable ones? they don't last as long. have you got a light on yours? yeah it says hold. can you see that? going like all freak. well that's alright isn't it ? probably is recording. mine's recording. is your tape ring going round? right look. it might be on pause. might be on pause. is that your tape? it's marc's. i've done that to mine and put it on pause and er you know missed out about half an hours conversation. move move move . i won't be here on tuesday. i don't think so anyway. i'll tell you if i am though. yeah okay. well it's nothing major. who is nothing oh bloke he says he's nought taken ought. i told you. yeah yeah alex alex. tell me the answers quick tell me the answers. i don't know to what people are saying? that recording? if you had headphones on you pam you can hear everything. oh god. right. quite far. this is the way we're gonna work it. you're all going to do the merit test. then then you get the choice of either doing a special or a foundation. it's up to you. and this is the way we work it. the specials are here. foundations are here next to one another. marked special and foundation. and what will happen is that when you finish with your merit paper and you're happy just leave it where it is. no better still you bring it out here put it down with your name on it and er take whichever you want. foundation or special. and to a certain extent you can be guided as to which one you're going to take by how well you how easy or how difficult you found the merit paper. yes john. last time if you weren't sure which to make we were allowed to come up with about ten papers you can have a look at a special yes if you're not sure. okay. any questions? five minutes to gather your thoughts. some of you could do with spreading out a little. you go round there. you're nearest. you're nearest. that's cos you sit at the end. oh can't you go there. no. i always do though. well it. you should sit here then. fine. olga lydia spread out please. right erm. terry you come and sit here. erm mark yeah? you come and sit here please. now this is a silence test. you tell me i am. what's the word or burning compression of gases erm could you go round the corner. okay we all ready to no. well ready or not the test is coming now. okay spread yourselves out. stop talking from now on. the first thing you're going to do is put your name on this. can you spread out please. joan sit over there. as soon as you get this you can get on. that means only silence now. coming off air. we can always have an odd bondage hunt if you're interested. ah long time no bondage. let's put our bags back. i'm carrying mine around with me. come on alex. okay this is good this. let's put our bags and coats on the er oh hello everybody. oh what? there's not light. can you see a light? yeah. sure? yeah. yeah. it's cos it's bright. i know. some people when they're traumatic i'll just shove it through the window and put it on the desk. did actually kiss you? looks pretty serious. alex leave your bag and coat here. i'm gonna drop them off home. what? i'm gonna drop them off home. seriously what do people do around this school. it's been so long since i spent oh at least three quarters of a lunch break. is your watch programmed into should automatically oh yeah. no i think of what er alf gave it up. two years ago cos this is the anniversary. the come back. i don't like the sound of come back. what did i have it on. b o n d o a g e h o n . not enough letters there. how many letters can you have? from nine to thirteen. there's twelve letters. bond a g e . yeah i think i can try it. oh can't do it. why? it's full. i wonder how daniel is? dead. if we're lucky enough. got any cash? if he's dead. no have you? this dump is so boring. seriously what do you do round here ? people ask me why i do music. people ask you why you go home. well cos it's boring. exactly. that's why i do music. it's anything to do with p a p dot a dot c dot. yeah let's go up there and have a look. i'm not gonna hang around until you've no i'm only gonna i thought you were. baby that's where i . you're back with baby. oh sorry i didn't . very un s p d s dot p dot d dot. so i won't be here oh god i won't be here on friday and where are we gonna have our assembly today? drama studio. we're only having drama studio. you have to sit on the sit on the floor. take your shoes off? no. you do have to sit on the floor. yeah but i'm not i'm going home and put on a different pair of shoes though. don't you have to take your shoes off? well if it's raining and stuff yeah. but er the floor's already pretty crap they don't bother. couldn't we have chairs? there isn't enough they say. he thinks oh i'm allowed i got chucked out last time. yeah well just say that we, oh incidentally. who's that on drums? look mr . so will i get done if i go up there? why? just say you told me to come along. and if if mr p says bye you'll come with me. oh we're not gonna do oh god. you're doing you're not doing anything musical are you? what what else is there? god. i'm i'm gonna go home for five minutes. what now? you know in a few minutes. then i'll dump by bag or listen if it even if i weren't here would you have anything to do? pardon? would you have anything to do if i wasn't here? yeah i'd just apart from listening to that racket. is that supposed to be music? then come back. you record it? yeah. are you? yeah. good. this is how boring our lunch times are. now you understand why i do music and alex goes home . so where is everybody? on the field probably. playing football. oh i shall go for a quick b h. yeah. just a quickie. we're not talking to anyone who's playing football cos they'll try and get us in the game well i can't play it. yeah and i can't yeah. by the way why haven't you been doing games for the past i don't know six months? why haven't i? yeah. i just get off it. why do i do music. get a note or go home i just don't do it. why? it can be alright sometimes you know. when it's this hot alex. don't you like doing games when it's alright weather? you either you either get too hot you get boiling hot and just too hot to do anything. or you get freezing cold and covered in mud. so when is it alright to do games? never. that's my motto. never do games. well so far i've been successful. one rugby lesson and that was it. so far i've done the whole term of volleyball oh god. and i've done half a term of it's impossible for you to catch up on my record. i don't think i think i have set a new ashmore record. don't they worry about you not doing games? cos i've been asked a question before i've been asked loads of questions. have you? yeah. by who? erm some lady who works for the council or something. oh er what else was there? she's asked was that in school or did she go to your house? she went came to my house for five minutes. i've been asked by mr heather heather wasn't it ? yeah. yeah she's spoken to me in school. mr er the fat one fat girl. what did you say? i say i've got ingrowing toenails. i'm finding problems at home. that's what i said. she came to my house yeah. and i'm going well i've i just say i've had erm three operations on my toe and i too painful so the doctor said advised me to only do games if i feel okay. they they accept it they didn't shit. in six weeks i'll be able to do stuff like table tennis. cos there's a table tennis. cos i can't do anything. i can do almost anything in these. in a few years the . yeah more than that i'd say at least a decade. decade easy. i doubt i'll every do games for the remainder of my time in this school. i i don't thing i'll do a single when she came to see you that whole term that ever . did she ask you about erm any days off. about what? like just any days off why have you been away so many fridays. is that what she said? i've been away about thirty. you have? yeah. same here. but i'm d'ya know that we were maybe on a on a bit . i'm holding the record for most days off. tons of fridays. what actually bunked. well like er pret pretended to go home. what see my sis a lot of the time my my sister like. okay my mum would phone up and go walk her walk to school with alex on friday and i think he might try something. anyway i pretend to take ages in the toilet. so she goes off okay. and i just stay at home and other stuff like i bunked off a couple of days, whole days of school. okay i pretended i'd gone to school and i'd what did you do? just stayed at home i hid in the shower. in the shower? yeah we've got this shower downstairs. we never use it okay. and i just hid in that yeah. for ages? yeah about thr two hours. were your mum and dad well my mum was er upstairs getting her stuff ready for work. then she just went off. as simple as that. and that's it? well i just stay at home. then i forge myself a letter. simple. your mum didn't mind? well she didn't know. d'ya know. i mean i wish i could get away from school. wish i had somewhere to hide. oh what a stink. it's called having an advantage. as soon as we get back i'm going home alright? only five minute though. well it's so bloody boring here. shall we bunk off this afternoon. what have we got? french i mean german p s h oh yeah. er p s h is easy. yeah. what we doing in that? er so did this woman ask you about why you've had so many fridays off? yeah. she asked me as well. okay i go right has she ever come to your house since? no. when was this? when did she come? oh ages ago. since then i i've like say i missed ten fridays yeah? before she came. now i've only missed five. so i've cut down. you know what i'm saying. yeah. i'm less addicted. so she don't come to your house? no she never comes to my house now. ever. she's only come to mine once. but she came at lunch time. did she leave her card and tell you when she'd be yeah. yeah and me. oh god. she's such a . and i'm say and when she was did she speak to you? yeah. did she go to you i'm on your side? well she she tried to act like really friendly like. yeah i know. she really cares about me. is that she said er did she go to your mum, oh you've done a good job and no my mum wasn't there. she came like er lunch yeah? and after i'd gone home yeah? and she knocked on the door had this crap conversation and then buggered off. my mum wasn't there. nothing i said they think they can like social services. why are you doing this and all that. having days off d'ya know what i mean? it's no big deal is it? i mean they just just check on your attendance. shit about one. i don't tell her i've middle of mondays as well. and my mum started said there's a problem i'm getting bullied or something. yeah same here. my mum said that to me. she goes you've been bullied. okay and i'm going make you feel no . as though okay my sis and my sister's right she, andrea, she's really trying to make it look as though she's going that erm you daniel and mark are beating me up and stuff yeah? for a joke yeah? and my mum yeah and she's going, oh my god alex you okay? d'ya want me to go round to that school and beat the crap out of them? i go, no mum she's lying. and my mum thinks a home she wants to take me to a psychiatrist or something. god. the last seriously the last time i've bunked off you know school was last monday. last monday? not the monday a couple of days ago but the one before. that's the last time time i've i might bring in a note tomorrow saying i've got make an appointment i wanna be out of school. you know that as long as you bring in they still care a bit though. cos like on friday we had textiles and they go a bit cheesed off when we miss so much textiles. yeah well you have but you've more or less catched up. games is on the national curriculum that's why and we why? lessons and it's on the national curriculum games. just think we haven't done it. basically yeah. i mean it's not like that important is it? i mean i already do enough ex enough exercise. i can't run or anything. well i do i do do sports with my dad every other weekend when i go to his house. we have to do football . i didn't know . i can't go running cos it hurts too much. tennis we can play about three hours of football every sunday. so i get enough exercise with i just do a lot of weights and stuff like that. that's what i do. bought myself a nice big and just do that. it's enough. sit- ups and crap like that. i know and you can do that yourself. but in a games lesson they push you to do so much yeah and i can't i can't get myself pushed cos if they push me too hard i usually ache. it's like going . cos i ain't got asthma shit like that but i can't breath that well okay. so i tell this to that lady there. she goes, well i'll get the teachers to calm down on you a bit. well i hadn't even done games once so you know okay . so that was a bit off strange that. calm down. i don't they've been doing anything to me yet okay. and it's that simple okay. and the day i have games was asking me to do fifty pick-ups run around the circuit five hundred really? times and shit like that. and i was going ten minutes. and where can i meet you? d'ya wanna have a walk or what? i can't they're keeping an eye on me. alright. yeah. speak to mr and oh god. let's see the time is one twenty three i'll be back by one thirty. three minutes to get there three minutes back that's six minutes. you're just inviting me to walk into your house? no. oh that's alright then . just better get things straight. i'll meet you when at one thirty five? yeah that'll be alright. where? erm outside the pad by those doors by the entrance. okay make sure you're there. yeah i will be. cos i'm going back home. see you. and that concludes a small session for today. alex were you just waiting there? i just had to stay at home for a bit. we were having the house furnished. banner then? erm i asked and she said that his dad sent him off to get it x-rayed and she goes, but he's had a history with his toe poor blighter. stupid cow. enough to make you puke. sorry bud. but i had to stay home. i left my rehearsal for you. don't give that shit. i was sit there for twenty five minutes for you. liar. it says one thirty five and er it's one fifty old christian love rachael . all you people in norway. is it recording now. yeah. is it? yeah. what's your name? god. i did the same things when we did alex told me that alex has extremely nice coloured teeth. thank you. i like that shade of yellow personally. what's wrong with daniel's toe alex? i don't really know i think he might have dislocated he kicked a door didn't he? he's a bit of an idiot. for god's sake he's he's played that what just cos i said he's a bit of an idiot? he said more than that. he said something else about daniel . i'm a bad man. you were gonna hit me then. i'll be here on tuesday marcus. no you won't if you have an operation you said you will be off for the rest of the week. no. i said i was not i'm not gonna be here friday saturday sunday or monday am i cos i've got this holiday right. but i'm gonna come here on tuesday. a i have to give you some and i wanna record some more stuff. we ain't got one though. are you gonna leave your jackets and things in the classroom. what jacket? bag in the classroom. yeah. same here. stall for time innit yes that is a very low seat there. mark is there something wrong upstairs? you ask him to speak some hebrew to you. cos then you can start learning. god you're starting to loose that spiky effect mark. softening up. let's go in. i can't scratch my hand in my head now. i like it groovy. have we gone in? yes. where is everybody? where's everybody gone? sir have we got assembly? yes. sir? today. this is. sir? i told you yesterday i won't be here today. you know what i mean tomorrow. sorry. don't confuse me. tomorrow i won't here. you won't be here all day tomorrow? no okay. you can switch titles switch them round. yeah that's it exactly and then you won't cover the titles. and those look at this two o two. that's crap that karate yeah and stuff like that. you have to have been in the karate the same time. even if you're brilliant they still won't give it to you. even if you're as good as a master they still won't give you the top black red. okay red's the top. still won't give it to you. you have, yeah, you have to wait at least you have wait a certain amount of years. it's thick. even if you're better than a master you still have to wait. usually has a well black i guess. but erm but he still had to wait that's what's crap. x-ray. don't say that about your lover. oh. shut up. he's talking to me and that with stephanie stephanie. oh! i think stephanie cos i told her and she goes, oh good. well she was the one who was begging him to do it. you know what i'm talking about. kissed me. when i came out of geography. she did. on the cheek. she did. she now has a rash. smirk right on the neighbours everybody needs to neighbours with a little. told you right. i had to erm you know when she runs on the court and trips them up yeah yeah. i done it on jame and michael and and you know the part where she pulls him over and she flicks her leg back so he flies yeah yeah. i done it on michael. i'm proud of you. i mean good for oh i'm gonna start crying . are you taping this? yeah. good you've got it on tape. people in norway will hear all about us . handshake. oh yeah very good i mean round of applause everybody come on. alex no no that's a bad idea that. no no no. my god look at that. it's enough to hurt my i'm bleeding. d'ya still wanna buy he hasn't got any money at the moment. yeah i i well when he gets it. i broke into house man. did you? yeah. so long as you didn't nick i stole take my brother's mega drive. oh is that the one with crisscross? alex? yeah? you gonna tape the assembly? yeah might as well. put them to sleep that's nice of you. now this is what we call an assembly. it is boring aren't you a bit worried about going to erm hospital? yeah. full of needles i mean come off it. i won't be awake when they're doing it cos tell me when i see you tuesday. d'ya really have a bath you do don't you? yes i do have a bath. come on. right take coats off let's sit sit down there. right one lane please close to the front. i think i'm gonna get done. he can see oi michael michael? did joanne beat the crap out of you? i'm proud of her. she she thinks she's i hate you with a passion . no i could i could i don't need to dream. i taught her a new move and she practised it on me but she missed and got me in the and i fell on the ground. that's very good. she deserves a medal. how much time forty five minutes. forty five minutes. i lost in my third round. sorry alex. you can't make them come off they're blimming boots. gonna throw me over. we're in room three. yeah, yeah, is lucinda here? nah. where is she? why, what happened now? oh nuffink, i don't care about those idiots. i don't even wanna what you holding? don't tell anyone okay, it's gotta be by surprise. don't even tell them at the end. erm, that norwegian geezer, but erm, alex passed it on to me. alex passed it on to you? yeah. oh, your cousin? oh what are they going round no, no it's just he's having an operation. oh right. huh? adrian don't, don't tell, cos my cousin is in control of it, yeah? and he's having an operation, huh? oh you alexandra having one? no, you know my cousin alex? he had one yeah, and he passed it on oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah i remember to me. so, and he's having , yeah i know it's just erm, i don't want them to know, so then i get em it doesn't matter, you're allowed to say that, you can say what you want. that's alright then. adam good. did you do your erm,english? tuesday will be three days mr sent for you. you need to bring that in because he'll be waiting for that won't he? listen for your name now, lynn? sir. sorry? sir. that's better. nicola away,mandy, hannah no hannah, away eleni? sir. , joe, joanne? sir. debbie, lucinda no lucinda. conversation. pamela away. and sherry. adrian, tommy no tommy,remember that note adam. erm, how do you spell it?get through and listen to other people's conversations. oh, oh right, yeah, yeah, oh yeah sir, i've got mine today . oh. some, some told me to bring it. me. oh hold on. me, the bus contender, the driver, oh yeah and carl's going vroomm vroom. okay erm, me and eleni, me and lynn, mr that's mine sir. eleni,. oh, where are we now? alright. the way you speak. have they given you the book that you have to yeah , yeah. oh i remember, i remember thinking cos he said that he was gonna be away, and he wouldn't be here on tuesday, so he goes. what, has he gone in for surgery? yeah. what about? for an ingrowing toenail, they have to take it out. ingrowing toenail? operation on it? yeah. urgh oh my god. pain ful . what they gonna do? knock him out? yeah. they gonna cut his toenail? oh, hey he's just a bit late. sindy. what has she gotta do the norwegian thing as well? yeah, it's not norwegian thing, it was ladies norwegian, that's all. norway. she oh, i couldn't cos we ran out, and when we came back it was ten o clock and i thought, well. i was only joking. anyway, carry on. you get a little book, and you have to take out the tape, and you have to write down the different conversations you have in between, all your conversations, and then erm,. i don't think i can on sunday. i don't wanna go, i really don't wanna go, they're gonna have such a go at me, but i don't wanna go. well, let them have a go at you, you don't have to do what they say. don't you wanna go. i don't wanna go. well, then don't go. i'm no they keep on ha having a go at me cos i can never go out them. well tell them, say look i don't wanna go out with you. yeah, just say it, say that again . make out that they've been right bastards to . in the whole wide world.. and, and now, and now you have ripped my friendship to shreds, because she has gone mentally dunno, nuts. she's gone nuts and . have you got one of your tapes in there, as well. alright? what? what you gonna tell them about me? nuffink, i didn't say nuffink about you, they didn't ask me. no,. oh, oh. he thinks you were lydia. it's so sad. he goes to me,so she said , yeah but she doesn't want to come, and he says yeah but grant says she is doesn't he what you chatting about? and i go isn't that eleni or something? and he goes oh, he's got a eleni, and i go it is eleni, and he goes, oh yeah, it must be eleni. oh. i, i don't want to see him again, they're such idiots, i just wanna get rid of 'em. just, they're all really like when i, i didn't have a travel card, they all started going just cos i didn't have a travel card. yeah but they are, they are really, you know those and everything? they are really yeah you supposed to be doing that? oh, oh just recorded what you said. what you gonna say? i told him you hate chris. oh, bastard, what did he say? he goes i don't hate him though. so, come on, tell me what he said. it's alright,. bollocks, what i thought. is he good looking? he's a little bit taller than you. yeah, dean dean's good looking but, andrew's got eyebrows all the way across here, christian's about that high. and then there, then there's this one called ash, and he's like pizza, i'm not joking, he's worse than , peeow. blow up in his face. that's disgusting,. i go, okay, tom or something. yeah. you want me to bring tom. who is he? oh ash, he's ash. yeah but there's the other tom as well. there's one called who's greek. he's like quite, he's alright. so who you gonna ring then? i don't know, whoever's going down or something. talking about? it's j i'll phone you up later. oh, god. oh, sorry. i hope i was recording that. was i was i? achoo. was i. put it away eeaahoo. yeah, i've got 'em in my bag. yes, i was recording it.. put it away. i'm not, i'm not gonna record over it. no, i mean put it under your jumper. aargh. put it away, put it away. ah doesn't matter, does she pluck them all over? they're like, i don't know, it's like they're really thin, and she's plucked 'em at the end as a kid. oh god, i haven't really noticed. look there's amy, let's record her, hee hee. right. ooh. ping. oh, where d'you get it? oh my cousin passed it on. oh, i think they're waiting for us eleni, it doesn't matter, bye. i'll just put it on pause now. what? what's wrong with lucinda? oh yeah she went to sign in, that's it. did she? yeah they're what? you're joking. you're kidding, that is it. right excuse me. this is it, this is the truth right. mrs s , tell me that again so it's on record. say it again, say it again. she wants us to go to mr . but who? who's us? me and you. and me. i'm going well, oh, and you as well? and lucinda? is it recording? yeah, you're recording. am i? hello everyone. oh shut up. oh this is really getting on my nerves. well leave him then. you don't need to say anything to him, just no it's recording she reckons she owns the bloke. she doesn't reckon sh yes she does. she doesn't. oh well, i hate her anyway. girls at the back of the room, we haven't come for a chat. can we get out our worksheets, our , our rulers. we have to come for a chat, we need to record it. yeah. shut up. the last thing we taped, what was it? oh i dunno. well what was it? i have to know so i can log it. oh thanks. what was it? i don't know. working to. oh my god. what was the last thing we had, was it del and that lot? yeah something like that. no, just walking out of english. was it? yeah. walking out of english?. yeah. well near the end of the lesson. when the lesson was ending. this is my homework. can i give it to you monday? right, where's your book? mrs, i haven't got my sheet. look, i've done my homework. the sheet that i gave you. if you've lost these sheets erm, how many of you have lost their sheets. well it's in my book, oh, we've all lost our sheets, she's such a moany old cow. the homework, just copy it quickly. miss, say hello to the microphone. oh, you boring old cow. chang a lang, do you wanna listen to us, aah. shall we do our section work as well? ching, ching ching ching, ching ching . and go five kilometres south west to a point b, and then three kilometres south to a point c boring. on what bearing must we sail to head directly back to harbour, and how far has it . i want an accurate scale drawing, using a scale of one centimetre. now this is a really easy scale. it's not one to so many thousand, it's just written nice and easy for you, as one centimetre to one kilometre. we're in maths. show a b and and find the bearing this is boring, i'll pause. let me have one. no let me have one. shut up. who drew this? me yeah i know. stupid cow. oi did you tell lynn about erm, danny, thingy, danny , yesterday, on the field. he, he pulled his erm trousers down and he was showing us his pants and stuff. and we were going, because he took his shirt off yeah, we were going . we were just taking the mickey. what you have to do is look at your t g and close your eyes. oh, well, and not look at what your doing. i know, i know, i know, i know, i know i bye. work out east west, i'm just so bad. hang on, i'll record your conversation. no way. number three. right, so how are we going to start? the boat leaves harbour a the boat leaves harbour a. how are we going to start by doing this using tracing paper to mark the position shown by london, boring. oi, you can pause this, they don't want to hear the teacher. oh sorry. sorry. oi does this norwegian lady understand english, or is she studying english? oh right mmm. what the hell are we doing? i do not know. look, i need my book. stop doing your homework. say you didn't understand it or something. i dunno. lynn, what do we have to do. lynn, what do we have to do. no, we're going to be famous. hi my name's lucinda. oh, you wish. oi look. we've got it on a two two five bearing oh god, we've supposed to, have you got a pencil? miss, we haven't even got our protractor yet. wait a sec. i did have a erm, protractor, but it broke. i know you did, it's very distressing that they break isn't it? zoe. who's done it? right, where's two two five? nought six degrees twenty-five kilometres. excuse me. can i borrow the goddamn protractor? go on, it's not on. it is on, you're a liar. i'm gonna sue you for a hundred thousand dollars honey. put me in the oven and bake me for forty minutes. can i borrow the protractor? yeah, gimme the ruler. ching ching chung yer bum, to you boobs and go,diarrhoea mm diarrhoea . lynn, shut up. i'm singing to myself. oh, please. finding the pressure on the ground, under my feet, is a very hard thing to do. last week, joanne wrote down the method of how to make a bridge. whilst the rest of us were copying down the maths work . a car has four tyres, each of which tor touches two hundred centimetres square of ground. if the weight of the car is eight thousand somethings, find the pressure on the ground, under the tyres. we will use f equals s divided by a to find this out. right, f equals eight thousand, a equals four times two hundred centimetres squared, equals eight hundred and ding a ding a ding a ding a ding a ding a ding a ding a boomsha oh, alright then,you wanna know, ding ding ding ding ding ding ding a ding a ding a ding, ding ding ding a ding boomsha oh, oh . this is so boring. to ali, if you listen to this, you're stupid. no, i'm only joking. if you listen to this, i'm gonna kill you. you don't mind do you? nah, i didn't think you would. you're so gorgeous. thanks for giving me this stuff. oh, by the way, i i've broke the walkman, but you don't mind do you, i mean you're gonna fork out for it, but, i'm sure you don't mind. are you having a fit? oh listen to this. she's j got her asthma attack. i can't breathe. miss is being a bit of a beep. look, listen to me. give me the protractor. give me the protractor. isn't he? maybe he's slightly western. mad. see what i mean. south carolina. she's erm, you know all this western crap, see what i mean. she's not western yes she is. she is. i'm not, you're just an old liar. pinky boo boo. oh. oh i mean lynn, you always cow's poo poo. they crack me up, they crack me up. we haven't got a sheet anyway. lucinda put it in the middle here. alright, so you can see it. centimetres is seventy-five. seven point five isn't it? not seventy-five. oh, alright. have you actually measured it on your diagram? what, which the distance yeah, you're writing, or are you writing what somebody else has got? oh, i was writing it from the board actually. oh right, well you should have measured it. oh right. right, now we're way behind here, and i suspect it's because of a lot of chattering. well, we've been waiting for the protractors, we haven't been cos like, they have to do it, and then they pass it on, and then it goes like that. can you please have your own for tuesday? write in your homework diary. protractor for tuesday. oh, when does the maths erm, shop open? i'm not sure. isn't it monday i don't know what, which day it is, but monday we're not at school. oh, right. right, fine. now have a look at this one here. okay? okay. that's right. okay. oh, isn't that just jolly good? who's got my rubber? zoe, give me the rubber. zoe, give me the rubber. oh what do you have to do after we've done bam bam bam, chi chi chi. is this on pause, i better be on pause. oh my god, it isn't. do you fancy, oi zoe, do you still fancy steven? no way. that's what you said last time. oh, gonna show this to peter now. that is it. that is it, i'm not your friend. do you? nah. it's just a little, insy winsy teeny . sorry? zo , like the side of a ten ton truck you do. i decided, yesterday, yesterday i stopped fancying him, but i changed my mind again. oh. i fancied yesterday as well. oh, i remember when you fancied him and he, didn't he ask you out or something? no. didn't he? i though he did. didn't you go out with him? no. you were always with him. jeans yesterday. what? you were always with him. most of 'em. what? oh, bloody hell, stick to pizza poof. the battery's running out, the battery's running out. it is. how d'you know? cos that little red light's flashing. we'll just we'll just bing bing bing bing bing. we'll just i gotta list the people. no say shring at it. shring. forgotten data, see it any time eight ninety-nine on video alright, we've gotta make a in class oh miss. when the fishing boat sails for three and a half hours unclear steven, steven. oh, it's alright, i've forgot what i was gonna ask. three and a half hours. excuse me, oi, podgy, er cookie, erm,what's her name? erm. mmm? who? aran. aran? mmm. what happened? eh? mmm nuffink. fine. i hate the white hair. which one? the one with white hair, up there? you hate her? no, i hate her hair. oh, you hate her hair what do you think of steven's hair? steven's hair flies out at phew ptong. looks like a mad professor. a what? professor. a professor? for some reason, you two find it necessary to get up. nobody else, now sit down. you don't get out of your place, for any reason. alright, i suppose i will. have you finished that? yeah. you've got an answer there, but i haven't got a book to take in have i? you've just wasted, you finished that quite a long time ago, and you have shall i do it now it's not worth it, there's two minutes left. i'll do it, i'll do it in the time. i'll do it in the time. okay? no you won't you have just wasted ten minutes of that lesson, wandering round . miss, i bet i've got all my homework right. we talking about the same dicky? yeah, that's her sitting over there. she came in . what, were you really friendly with her then? yeah. she used to be one of my best friends. but you never used to hang round with her though did you? well, sort of. i used to hang round with nicky didn't i? nicky? and shelley? that was ages ago though, wasn't it? what in the first year, was this? no, erm, when we went to france, that sort of time. oh, right. and then you broke up with her after that didn't you? boring. so who's the love of your life these days? why not? why are you bothered then? eh? i'm not. you are. i'm not now. you are. how come you wrote this then? if you're not bothered? huh? i dunno. nothing to tape. oops, sorry. eh, yeah, thanks. oi, would you come to the computer service block with me? yeah? i've gotta go in and get a folder. folder? eh? what folder? do you have mr ? oh yeah, he punished me. i was writing something yeah? yeah. and you know that little book i've got? yeah. i was writing all the stuff, all this weirdo stuff, and he was standing over me looking at me, looking at what i was writing. and then, and tracey, who was outside the window, she looked at me and she started laughing, and i go ha ha right. and i looked behind, and he was just sitting there staring like that. oh my god. he gives me the creeps, so i looked round, hmm hmm. i mean, what is she doing? what does she want? fuck off thanks. look, fuck off janet, no one wants you. i know, i know. have you got that piece of shit on? have you got that piece of shit on? yeah. why? can i just say something? just wanna tell you i wanna fuck howard . oh, goodness sake i wanna shag, i wanna shag . did you? from who? from howard. oh. yeah, a poster. can i have a bit of that oh just, thanks, i just drank a drink. alright, alright, alright? look, so what is her problem now, gorgeous? i am the gorgeous, not her. gorgeous, gorgeouses then. why? i her. why's that then? why yeah but why? because she loves her so much. why yeah but you won't even look at me? okay, erm, what is lucy's problem, do you know what's wrong with her now. she's under chains and whips. oh right, cause i'm in chains and whips, help. chains and whips i need a, i so desperately need a shag. but i lie 'cause i had howard last night. she didn't. i was waiting there till about ten to nine. and then i was just so late, but i got, i came in luke, so i was a bit early really, oh my god. and now i'm on a late report. i've got to report every morning to mr cat. why don't you just put the blame on her then? he goes oh er,cos i came in late so why didn't you tell them, like lucy comes late and you have to wait for her and everything? 'cause i said that before, and they go well why do you need to wait? and then say mr said we've got to make her life comfortable because of the glandular fever. then they can't say nothing. oh yeah joanna fancies chris. bugger off. chris? what a prat, he's an arsehole. right look. it's just sh right, eleni and lucinda, go on you explain the story. he's about five foot tall. what? explain the story of mr . okay. my mum said, she's going my mum said, she was going to sign in because she was late, and then i was giving her a pen like mr asked me to come into his room. hey. he goes eleni come into shut up. come in to my room a minute. and he goes, lucy hasn't said anything, lucy hasn't said anything, but i'd like to speak to you cause i've been molested by howard. this thing is going nowhere. the end. right and anyway, wants to see us about a quarter past two i wanna look at howard's willy. that's if he could see us cos he's bernard's really fit really fit and very cute but but really he should be in germany he's an arsehole i fancy howard, because he's really fit and beautiful and he's got gorgeous blue eyes oh look at 'em talking about howard what do you have to say to all this? i dunno, hold on, i think the record button's just come off. chris b who's chris b? is this thing recording? yes, willy man. crispie, crispie. i fancy lasagne is crispie erm, you know daniel erm, whatever,. no i don't like him. i don't fancy james really cute but he's an arsehole but she no comment. oh thanks gorgeous. just say something. oi, i wanna suck howard's willy. i wanna suck howard's willy, cos it's really really thick. i wanna suck howard's willy i wanna suck howard's willy i love lasagne there's four hundred and fifty pounds worth of corm blurgh. well, i changed my mind. oh no, i just looked at . i've looked at howard's willy. hi , how are you? alright. erm, good, say hello. what is it. alright, how you going? what's that? it's a microphone, i'm taping what you're saying. you don't mind do you? any news for me? oh yeah, yeah, yeah. bye. that's dov. dov is p that is dov, dovvy wovvy. any way so erm yeah he's a prick. dov is pathetic. hold on, hold on, has lucy, do you think dov's got a willy. yeah, on his arm when was the last time lucy rang you? three minutes ago she stood there a fucking minute, never mind about lucinda. brring brring, brring brring. alright, alright then gorgeous. are you supposed to swear on that thing? yeah, you can say whatever you want. fuck, shit, your mum, your dad, kiss my arse. fucking listen, you're shouting out quick help aah. no, can i just say something right, i'm not desperate and i'm not a slag or anything, it's just that i really really fancy howard, and if i could i would suck his willy. i fancy lasagne. loving you there. erm, well i'm sure she does. erm, i'd just like to erm point out something. come here lydia . what do you want us to say? er,squeezing against olga's tits did you notice? yes, i did notice. well, i kind of rather felt sick and went away, because i thought er well. yes. oh alright then, if you hear any news from miss will you tell me what happens at lunch. yes, gorgeous. oh i know i'll tape it and play it back to you. tape it, yeah. what, you gonna tape oh my god . the conversation . oh, i got a strawberry, oh i got a strawberry on my arm. i've got strawberry in my eye i've got a strawberry on my arse yo, huh. er yeah. do you wanna see my strawberry? i've had it tattooed. i don't care. right,gonna see your smash hits or what? oh right. oh, it's peeling off. oh wow oh my god , an indian, oh let's all have a party anyway alright gorgeous. whoa, whoa, it's alive on me, bloody hell. oh bloody hell look i'm betelguese by the way. yes olga. oh i had mine here. oi, are you going, oi, are you going on saturday with jessica then? no. phew. i ain't going not dean, we're just going out together i told her who the fuck is dean, could someone tell me. he used to go out with lucinda. oh yeah. but she dumped him because he's a gay. but he's good looking. is he? what's wrong with being gay? oh bloo , oh oh we have bad problems here. oh oh oh oh god help him. come one we've got to go at least she admits it everybody. did everyone hear that? come on can we get out of here. right, okay everybody, erm, we're going, we're walking towards ,. oi why were you ignoring erm, adrian and the boy steve? dunno, i talked to him yesterday . say hello in there. alright, i rubbed it off, gorgeous. have you been using that the whole day? i need my, oh no i need my erm, my bag. shall we go and get our bags? no we don't need anything no, we've got to get we've got to get our bags. right, now we're walking up to get our bags i don't care, we're allowed. we're allowed miss. it's mine, it's mine. alex's, it's alex's, alex's palex's. sorry. i just like to tell you that erm, you love me and that i'm wonderful and that i'm great. yeah? where d'you get em from those things. i dunno. okay, give me the mike. hold on i've got it all caught. pause it a minute. really, you? yeah, i know her as well. no, you kn you know rosemary, my , yeah, yeah. like she was best friends with her. she lives down the road, in . oh, damn, i haven't got a bandage on me. oi, lucinda, i haven't got a bandage we are now approaching, erm, french. now i know why i don't want to hang around with you because of you cow. hold on er now we are now hitting each other oh, are you doing one of them as well? yeah, gorgeous. can i come over and speak to you? hello, my name's hold on one minute gorgeous. ya, ya ya. erm, mr is a bastard. oh, hey you took the words right that was dippy wippy. bangers and mash. oh what? i got a joke yeah. there's three prostitu no not really. erm, i got er, some rude jokes, but i don't think that's suitable. what joke can i tell them. oi, get out of our classroom right, i got a joke yeah? no i'm talking to the microphone hello, why? well, because oh, that's good. anyway,as i was saying before adam interrupted me see i fancy adam, he's really nice. don't know about that. yeah, you really want to see my homework, don't you james? why do i sell homework? i do not know him i do not know him. sir, why have i got three if i've got them all right? yeah sir, i just missed out one word and you gave me two. what's all this? erm, it's for a norwegian, we've got to do. teenage conversation. yeah, well that was our stupid, sappy teacher. . yes, well we're in french and it's really boring yes, well, i think i'll turn you off for a minute hang on a minute, where's the button? ah, here it is. i hate mr . i hate him . great ain't it. i'd just like to tell you, from now on, if you, look mr norwegian lady, i want to tell you something, this school sucks. there you go. i'd just like to tell you, that when you do something wrong, they never figure you out, and when you do something right, they make you do something wrong. it's a crap school. if you ever move over here, don't go to it, don't send your kids. thank you. she's just talking a load of old bollocks. excuse the swearing. but i don't know what the heck we're doing, we're in french and he never explains anything properly, but i wouldn't repeat that, please. ha ha. no, repeat it, because it's true. actually, repeat it 'cause it's true. anyway, this is teenage bitchiness. no but for once in my life, i'm telling the truth. mr is a pervert. she said mr is a pervert. he nearly heard that. anyway, what do we have to do jo? i'd just like to ask you this, i know you can't answer, but why are you making us say this stuff? don't you find this boring? listening to ten tapes, ten tapes each person. each person. must repeat the same stuff. oi, hang on a minute, i'll just pause it a minute. i've just got to tell her a secret. remember i've got to see . yeah, at two fifteen ain't it? that means at two fifteen. two fifteen is quarter past two. anyway. i'm thirteen by the way, and jo's, how old are you jo? fourteen? jo's fourteen. you see, and she didn't do anything for her birthday, the stupid cow. i wanna do something. when? i was gonna do something last sunday, but . do something on saturday. do something on saturday, yeah. no, i don't want to saturday. do something on monday. i prefer sunday. yeah, go on then. because can't come then can she? oh god. do something on saturday's the only day everybody's free. i'm not. why, what you doing? well, do it on monday. i can't monday. oh, do it on sunday who cares about lynn? sorry lynn, i love you really. not. i'm not a lesbian, don't worry. by the way, we hate dean. anyway, yeah go on. go on carry on. oi, spas, carry on. i don't know, erm, i don't like french. oi, look, look who's out the window. is that it,i don't know look at him with that ball. look at him with that ball. what? great. is it mayday tomorrow? oh my god, i haven't even done anything and the bell's gone. d'you like my cartoons? i was well pleased with them. not really sure babe. sorry, sorry? hate mr ? you're gonna hear our teacher mr have a go at us. hee hee. well not a go at us, because my mum said if he does yeah? she's gonna come up the school. alright. right we're gonna go now, okay. we're gonna meet eleni, and we're gonna go. oh no, two fifteen actually, bye. it's just a shitty school. yeah i know. she's recording. you're recording? yeah. i got to talk to to you . oh i don't bloody know, shall we start interviewing some people? yeah, go on. excuse me , yeah go on. can i just hello,you can hear yourself can you? shh go on. hello, oh my god. what are you recording, oh my god. right i see you around, bye. how are you? fine thank you. have you got that, have you got that, got that thing? yeah. sorry, who else has got it? , caroline. d'you want a bit? bit. oh well. have you heard about dean and dean dean? mmm sheila was going out with him. you know that little girl,jo, is she paul's sister? how come paul doesn't come to our school then? dunno, something about the school he goes to is better at sports or something. oh, right. mmm interesting. so when do you see him then? every day. oh. yeah, after school. how come. cos he gets off at palmers green. mmm. seriously. not nasty, but i've gotta talk to you, yeah? so just round the school. come on. oh, what have you done ? silly girl. oh, god. oh god. oh, what have you done that will affect well, she didn't say it was serious, well she did, but, but i'm not . oh god, oh yeah. oh well, so much for that. so where do you get off then. erm, outside tesco's, palmers green. oh right. where do you live then? palmers green. that's a bit obvious. i mean what road, kind of thing? oh,. oh yeah. nice name isn't it? oh yeah, i know that, yeah yeah. so does paul live nearby then? yeah, he lives near broomfield park. how d'you meet him? this is the twenty questions. how d'you meet him? through emma. they went to the same primary school. oh, mmm. we went to play tennis. and then, did he ask you out? well, no. emma asked him if he liked me and he goes no. . i think it's cos they kept pestering him and all that. oh right, and. and then he asked me out in the end. mmm. and how long is it now then? about ten months. you were gonna dump him weren't you? mmm? you were gonna dump him, oh but you did dump him though, didn't you, and then you said, hi, come back again like. would you ever dump him for no. alright, what about darren, daniel,. if he begged. yeah, well. what? what if daniel begged? not if i was still going out with paul. no, i mean, would you dump paul though. no. right, erm, erm, andrew . i wouldn't dump paul for him. do you like him? if i was going off him. what about erm, aran in the fourth year? oh he's yeah. oh no demetrius?erm let me see. alex danny, andy oh i've had enough of you. i'm getting off. off the bus . bye. oh sorry. what a sad girl. mum can i make a phone call? oh yeah great, ta hold on tha yeah all right, i won't be long. nah. hi, hello can i speak to kim please?.. yeah, hi, hi it's jo, yeah, you know paul, he rang up okay. yeah you know that nice little conversation we were having on the bus. yeah, right, i rang paul, and erm, he he, what, he rang you, what did he say? oh my god. no he goes, kim, no no hold on, he goes but erm, he reckons you're right drifting apart and everything, and that you're going off him and everything. and he goes, and like, you know it's just. he reckons like, he wants to be friends, but he just doesn't want to go out with you any more. to put it mildly yeah, well, what d'y what do you want me to say. fine or make a big kerfuffle and say you little alright then, well see what happens okay? shall i ring him now, do you want me to ring him back? alright, see you see you, bye. huh, alright. hello, hello paul, hi it's jo. yeah, i just rang her right? and she just goes, oh i can't force him to do anything. yeah, so what do you want me to say? i said what do you want me to say? alright, do you still want to be friends? i think she still wants to be friends. alright, any other, do you want me to just, do you want me to just to get her to call you? alright, alright then, i'll see what happens okay. alright then, i see you later. right, bye. oh, hi. god you picked it up quick yeah,look right he just goes, alright i go to him, oh you know kim said she can't you know force you or anything, and erm, yeah, he goes, he goes he still wants to be friends, and everything and he goes, tell her that don't want to hold anything against each other, if that's possible yeah yeah yeah and he no it's and he said s yeah i know, i know, no he said, okay well i dunno, you know paul. i'm recording this, well like i'm only lying no, yeah, i know you must be so gutted after that you going oh i wouldn't dump him for anyone oh well, now you can go out oh my god there's paul. i'll get it hello hello it's joanna hi, eleanor, yeah, i'm okay she's saying mummy come to the phone hold on one minute and i'll get her for you. mum mum eleanor think you better come and get it. so how can i talk to kim. oh well, i'll ring her back later, then. yeah, i know, i know what happened. oh right, yeah because it goes this whatever, is temp phone call is temporarily engaged. and then and then okay, it rang back, and i thought it must be kim, because it was temporarily engaged, and then, it was my sister's godfather well, did you, did you press anything? i don't think so. yeah, anyway, yeah, he still wants to be friends with you and all the rest of it oh i do you know paul, he'll change his mind tomorrow i mean you have, kind of changed your mind haven't you? i mean you've changed it, you know well you dumped him for danny and everything well just don't worry about it yeah don't worry about it yeah look do you want me to ring him up and say anything? yeah i know it's easier no you must feel really gutted, i mean i would i know, because as you said, you going out for ten months yeah exactly, yeah, exactly i mean come on you really liked him fancied him loved him oh wow, i said love, love love, i don't know love hey man yeah yeah it's probably, you know like when you dumped him for danny it's just probably like that yeah exactly exactly, so don't worry oh come on he can't give up ten months for nothing i know it has to end someday, but it doesn't i mean it's like everyone thinks like that, it really annoys me, everybody, right who's about our age yeah, they just go out with someone knowing that one day it's gonna end, they're just waiting for the day, and that you know, you should go out with someone with the intentions of being with them forever i know that sounds pathetic, but it's true, yeah i know, yeah exactly yeah, yeah i know, why do you think i said it? yeah but don't worry about it, okay? yeah oh yeah, i forgot about emma, what did you ring her? what did she say? oh don't bother, for god if everyone gets you know like what you said before, he said he didn't like you, he didn't ask you out you know the first time, cos everyone was hassling him, if they all hassle him now, you're not gonna get far are you? just don't bother no just come on, you know what i mean alright yeah i know but i'm just, just let's just decide right alright then alright then you ring her now, okay? can you ring me back? alright then i'll ring him now anyway alright then alright i've got to ring er what's his name as well oh, god i know, such an idiot yeah yeah alright then, alright i'll see you monday yeah, oh sorry i'll see you monday, okay alright then see you monday bye. oi, jessie, jessie, come here a minute, you know like mary, what's wrong with her? yeah. well, you know like she had that problem with her you know yeah, what about it? well, how did she deal with it then? well she went to the doctors didn't she? yeah but, i know but what did he say? what did he say? well, erm, she goes to him, well she told him, and she goes onto the pill yeah, and you know, she didn't tell her mum, she didn't tell her mum though, did she? did her mum find out, didn't her mum find out though? and then there was that massive kerfuffle? yeah, yeah her mum found out, yeah she started shouting at her, but then the daughter pointed out that she did it as well. she was weren't she? yeah i know. alright, i was just checking. why? why, you ain't done something have you? no. nothing. alright then okay then, i gotta go right? bye. bye. thanks. thanks jessie. s'alright are you going to downstairs? yes. yeah? aha. hold on let me just put on these thingies. what are those things? this is a nightie. nightdress? aha. it's like mummy's. it is mummy's. say that again. so are we going to go and watch beverly hills? it's starting in three minutes. i'll just put my slippers on and we'll go. we go give me the slippers you. give me the slippers. no, no they're . come on beverly hills is starting in two minutes. come on it's, it's almost ten to eleven, come on we're gonna miss it, and then i'm gonna kill you. alright, you can stay up here then, okay, i'm going down. alright then, bye. all right then bye. are you coming? watch this. are you coming? gotcha. yes, you got me, yeah yeah yeah, great. are you gonna come? oi. georgie, georgie. you're not coming then? all right bye then, don't come, okay. i'm gonna sleep downstairs then, instead of you. huh? i'm coming downstairs. all right then. erm you wouldn't believe the computer nasha's got, it's absolutely amazing. i mean mm. they've got thank you. and they've got everything from like i might eat, no i'm not eating that's that was wonderful jemma. absolutely wonderful. they've got so many c like he said it is really like science and all that we've got my old one. is this your old one? no it's both of them visa. is that you? that was er i'd just got back from work. what, what work? i was working in the british high commission in er nigeria. really? you look so different. you look like a i just look very smart. you look like a very different person very why? you just do, your your hair's different and it makes you look completely different. you want to see mine, you wouldn't even recognize me on my passport, i've got two pictures right i think i've seen it. look at my old pictures when i was thirteen and i was er i refused to cut my fringe. i used to hide behind my fringe. who's that, lisa? yeah. you're gonna die! you've seen that loads of times. yeah i know but it's so funny. your hair's really dark. yeah. where was that one taken, in nigeria? no that was in, that was when i was at home, in essex. and you would be f i can i can remember you've lost a lot of weight haven't you? that photo being taken. me and my dad went to you've lost a lot of weight. southend airport to get it done. really? yeah. you look like somebody i know there, i love the way that pass both passports are sealed together, look at the seal, i think it's brilliant. well look in the insi on the inside of the front cover, no the inside of the other cover no of that one oh. oh yeah ooh really nice, it's real authentic isn't it? really british, i'm pissed off about the european passports oh i know. i'm gonna have to get one next time, a europeaney one. yeah mine, mine runs out in nineteen ninety seven. well luckily, oh mine's, mine's not gonna run out two thousand and one yours runs out. yeah. you're older than my sister really? my sister was born er thirteenth of june sixty nine. that looks a lot like you there. that's dave's birthday, thirteenth of june. really? have you got any stamps? no cos i only got it this summer cos my other one was nicked, my other one which had all my really nice visas in it, which i was really i ordered mine from nigeria. and a few others. i love that passport. this passport is just fucking excellent, i love it. well yeah, just because of the stamps in it and stuff, like real memories and s things. oh shit you've lost yours totally? yeah it was nicked. stolen. gone. oh you would have thought though they'd send it back. do you know what i mean? i mean that's so stupid not to send it back. where was it stolen from? well these, these these are the kind of people who nicked my address book which was sitting on my seat and which looked quite nice which wasn't in my bag, they nicked that. where was it stolen from? but that's so pointless cos it's got all the addresses, your addresses in it. yeah. it's such a tossy, you sure it wasn't in the bag? yeah i'm absolutely positive, i remember leaving it on the seat. it was stolen from my car, my car was broken into how long did you actually leave the er how long were you away from the car for? erm well it happened some time between about two and six it was a bit silly to leave your bag on the front seat though. yeah but we were sitting in a er we were in a cul-de-sac in a nice area yeah you don't think do you? you don't think at all. mind you, my mum was telling me, on christmas day, right, christmas day! erm you know that georgian house on my road on th my side of the road, up the road? looks way out of place. well not as way out of place as a british telecom building would look but, it looks quite erm looks quite out of place , but erm this massive great obnoxious georgian building erm was broken into on christmas morning right? they picked the lock on the house, the front fucking door . all the people were in bed in the house, woke up in the morning, the front door was wide open, the video and t v had gone, and the stereo. and so they pi they we came into the house when everyone was asleep. that would freak me out so much, you just wouldn't feel safe in your house ever again would you? cos equally a rapist could pick the lock and come in and, and do you know what i mean? er you'd just feel i couldn't believe that, thought fucking hell. so my dad's having all the locks changed. stepped up the security in our house. outrageous. stepdad? no stepped up the security in the house . oh hey nance, nance, nance, nance, you know you were telling me that you thought someone had died at work? i, i sort of heard debbie and chris talking the other day, and i might have got it totally mixed up, but i reckon, i heard chris saying that, well basically what i gathered was that andy might have a different father to chris and it was andy's father that's died, right? cos chris was saying things like oh his, yeah he's been to the funeral and erm he's all of a sudden found that he's got loads of cousins he didn't even know about. what, so he did, he didn't but i wonder if i wonder if chris and andy, cos chris and andy's half brother is steven who's debbie's husband, i'm wondering if they knew that they had different fathers. cos they don't call each other they're half brothers. maybe yeah. well andy's, look how andy's got ginger hair. mm. chris is dark and sort of like totally, doesn't look anything like andy. not even one similarity. totally like and what, they're supposed to be half brothers are they? no they're supposed to be brothers. but i reckon they've probably lived like brothers from a young age. cos look how much yeah, oh yeah. older chris is than andy as well. well he isn't that much but he's a good nine years. nine, ten, eleven years older than andy. so maybe they did know. yeah i reckon they did. and just sort of like did, just called people or andy may er andy, andy may be adopted or something like that. yeah maybe. but it's just strange that steven's called their half brother and they're called brothers. do you know what i mean? well maybe, yeah, but maybe steven is er is a half brother through a third marriage erm at a later stage to when they his mum er they're er chris' mum may have remarried, who andy calls mum, erm remarried when andy was you know, fifteen and chris was twenty five and then they, and steve was o old as well, steve was quite however o however how old steve is, he so then he'd be a stepbrother. oh. mixed up. maybe we don't know. maybe we're just gossiping. maybe we're just damn fucking nosy. it was funny cos i could hear them talking and i was really sort of like so obviously then, i reckon it must be his dad and that's obviously why andy saying oh look your dad's died yeah. cos chris doesn't seem that bothered really, does he? maybe he wouldn't know him. mm. maybe andy didn't know him. and he just went because it was his father's funeral. but then why would he have to go to the morgue for an identification, he wouldn't know what he looked like. maybe he's next of kin. stop it . aren't we nosy though? aren't i nosy i mean. i better go right, good luck. yeah. you bloody lay into them. yeah i will, i'm gonna stand my ground. yeah, definitely. i will, yeah. well it is, it's money innit, we're talking about now? don't forget about the deposit. yeah, right. yeah, right . i love this song. i haven't listened to it for ages. what i've nicked today? oh yeah. not bad eh? well he said i'm not fighting for you any more and the queen as she seen his face some days before jane wants me to send her a postcard. up here on the hill lot of people i work with actually. who er so who's this jane person then? jane's like another she's really nice who you just got on with. really, really friendly with me, yeah. the thing is though there's so many people who are sending postcards won't send her one. see you later. see you nance. i'll be back soon hour and a half relax right. alright bye. see you later. good luck. good luck. i'm having real problems with things like people asking me what accents people have got. cos what'll fug people out, i mean what's your accent? what would you say your accent was? southern. that's what i put. no it's je jersey. i put south. but it's not jersey, jersey is all no. like this innit ? well it's not, it's just like er i dunno, i can't do it. i've said i've got essex, i've said frank's oxford alright my cocky oh really? yeah. a bit countrified though. very countrified, that's a real rural thick jersey accent though. alright my cocky. how you doing eh like a fan secret planet wonder if i'll fill up a whole book, there's no chance i will. to do tomorrow. right. driving right. bank. i tell you what you could do, which would be useful for me as well erm and you are never revealed on your battle field would be to erm phone up trailfinders or s t a, i think i might've asked s t a, and find out which would be the best card, which would be the best card to have. right. you know whether it'd be visa, access or whatever. as an honest man you know some time we've got to decide what we're gonna do when, as soon as we get to thailand and where we wanna go first. cos we won't wanna stay in bangkok for that long. no, no, we don't want to stay in bangkok for any time at all, no. get out straight away erm after a day or two. i reckon we should head up to actually. or shall, we could ask jim about it. the thing about thing about if you go down the south of the islands they're so nice, it's very hard. no i think we should do the north first, then go down to the south to meet frank and dave. yeah, yeah i, i reckon that's a good idea. order was heard still waiting for her word and what was it asked to do? mm yeah. i'll get mine done er after work tomorrow. we need quite a few don't we? three. three for each don't we? oh i don't know, i think, i don't know. well three for the application forms, that's one oh right, making three. not a bad little list to do is it? i might do some shopping as well, get some food. it's a bit stupid to have all these doors open you know? thing is we want to listen to, shall we go in my room? i'm really, really, really changed dramatically from not eating very much to scoffing my face at every single available opportunity. really? mm. i'm alright it might just be today though. can i have a light?left it all do you still wanna go to the pub later? i think, yeah, twenty to nine now, shall we just go for last orders or something? go about ten or something. yeah judy seems to be finding her job very boring actually. . apparently she's just pumping in er like addresses and stuff into a computer. they're graduates. quite good today actually, we've got erm pat who is like erm who is, i think she's like the personnel in charge of i know that she's in charge of personnel there yeah. she's quite good and she said well you're intelligent, you can do this for me and she had me doing this like phone calls ringing people up and mm. and brilliant. and i, it was good, i was actually actually recognized. that i did have a brain and i was capable of doing things even though it was yeah. very, anyone could do it, you know well thing is that i mean a lot of these jobs, i mean er yeah they recognize that, i mean a lot of them yo they think you're as thick as shit and treat you like you're as thick as shit just because you're doing a thick as shit job but you know they can't necessarily give you more yeah i more er they can't necessarily give you more er erm don't suppose you want to get me a cloth do you ? more erm responsibility cos you have to be trained for it. or know what you're talking about on the phone maybe. lovely, thank you sweetheart. ah! the fact that she's, she's intelligent as well erm she, you know, she's gonna s she knew that i didn't know what i was talking about so she said right you look,yo you look er you, you ask them about this, this, this and this and they might say this to you, so i knew what, if they asked me, i knew what i was talking about rather than yeah. being completely lost. mm. yes she's gone, gone, gone the only thing is my back has started to go. why? slouching around? sitting at a desk. it really is hurting a lot. never mind. so how much money will you get for the three days' work you've done? erm i'm not sure really. wait and see. yeah. going to cash my giro today as well you can only cash it at one of your local how much is it? sixty three quid. but that's for two weeks. oh yeah, yeah i suppose so. cos it comes in, it seems a lot cos it always comes in one big lump. did you sort out housing benefit ever? i sent it off but i haven't had anything back. i sent my rent book off as proof of the fact that i was of what the rent was cos you might get a big fat juicy cheque for that. the thing is, i was thinking right, is it'll probably happen when i'm, if come through, it'll probably happen while i'm away. yeah but what you could do, nancy will be really responsible about things like that, you can say to her if a big fat housing benefit cheque comes for me cash it and put it in my bank. but will she be able to do that? won't i have to countersign it or something first? no. yeah but i think on the back of the giro there's a thing where you have to countersign it saying i authorize so and so mm. get her to forge it. they won't ask for any, any do you know did you, were you there when darrel was talking about that woman in the post office? cos i w he was, he was in the post office one day and he saw this old woman and she'd just cashed all her giros and this bloke just nicked it in the post office. just grabbed her handbag and ran off with it. sort of stood there watching her cash the giros and then nicked her money. an old woman. i mean she's probably not got any money. i think that's outrageous. well i don't mind, well i mean this is a horrible thing to say but i don't necessarily mind people robbing from the rich but when it's poor people robbing from the poor, it's a really wank off, really wanky thing to do, you know, i just think it's disgusting. well you can understand it when somebody poor robs someone who's rich, but when someone who's poor robs someone else who's poor it's just i've written darrel a letter you know and er have you posted it? no it's down there, and in it er i wrote it last night actually when i was feeling pretty fucked off so it's probably a bit out of order but i wrote to him and said erm tt josh has been round this evening asking questions about what's happened with his money erm and i think you're really out of order. thing is that he's in er he's in such a pickle, he's doing what i can understand him doing it cos i'd do it, he's kind of just putting it off having to sort it out. but i said to him look josh isn't exactly well off at the moment, he needs the money or what he bought so cos i mean i get er talked about it and i know about it and that kind of thing and i that darrel i'm not saying anything because it's none of my business as far as i'm concerned no. it's between them. yeah. no. i mean josh is alright, i mean josh will understand, if darrel said to him look, this is the situation, josh would understand to a certain extent. yeah. i'd quite like to know how much like how,wheth what darrel actually ran away from, i mean he owes so many people money. yeah. well not,n actually that's not necessarily true, he owes his land he owed his landlord loads of money, i'm not sure whether he actually got round to paying him off. what would you feel like listening to? erm something in the same vein? yeah. i know what i feel like listening to, it's just whether or not i can find it. i quite lis like tapestry. carole king. yeah. mm it's a case of remembering what it's on the side o aha! have you done that, i, i saw a tape in your room the other day, erm lovingly compiled in berkshire it was like a it was like a tape in a box like that's josh's. oh what, who taped him that? erm oh i dunno, a friend of his. erm martin what sort of music is it? oh really? he's the one that got busted at the erm it's, it's a kind of dancey kind of hate the word but raveish type music but a bit mellower. mm. bit like that system seven tape? of simon's. yes, yeah. oh did you, you recorded that did you? mm. it's good actually, very good. i really like it. yeah. i'm, i'm gonna go up and see him before we go. simon? mm. i am wondering actually what i should do about helen. see now i, i would like to speak to her to check she's alright. but in doing so i'd be telling her that i knew that it had happened and therefore that simon had talked to me. or that i would have to say oh simon told me, and i don't think that is a very good thing to do really. cos she'd ask me how i'd know. it wouldn't be a case of oh si helen i've heard on the grapevine would it? tell you who i might phone up in a minute yeah? vanessa. and not vanessa and dangerous? and dangerous yeah . and not tell her that i know and wait for her to tell me. that what are, are they, what are the, the you know they're fucking engaged oh she didn't! what that's what i mean. but if she says something to me about it i mean if she says something to me about it i'm not gonna act surprised i'll say oh yeah i've heard. who told you? liz. what should i s er what should, would you be honest? i mean i'm not gonna say look i hate dangerous, i think he's an absolute wanker and how can you marry someone who's uses the nickname dangerous for fuck's sake. cos you could, i mean if if she asked you about it, you know, you could just say well honestly i'm quite, i didn't think you were the kind of person who'd go for i know, i know that thing is i mean i can see, i can see that she's going for him because what i might actually do is say well i re if she does actually a i mean what she'll probably do is say oh have you heard about me and dangerous, and i'll say yes. and she'll say and that's all i'll say. and i'll say yeah, yeah i've heard. and then if she says something like well what do you think i might just say well i haven't really talked to you very much about the way that you feel about dangerous so i don't really know erm dangerous, what a fucking stupid name! and then if she says well and, and then i might say but i just would imagine that you'd have a lot more to do with your life before you thought about settling down and getting engaged to someone. and also someone like him because i mean, i mean er obviously he, he seemed like a, i mean i'm sure he's a nice guy er i mean when it comes down to it he probably is a nice guy, he's probably nice to her but it's just the fact that he is so restricted in his views and it's also the fact that i know for a fact, i know for a fact that she's very frightened of his temper when it happens. i know she is. cos she's talked to me about it. i mean there's been a couple of times that he's really lost his temper with her and erm and, and really flown off the handle, badly. and i reckon that he's the sort of person who would turn into someone that would hit someo hit his his woman, because he takes her for granted enough as it is, and that, i reckon that's how wife battering starts because the husband starts taking the woman for granted so much mm. that, then starts taking their anger out on her yeah. and, and if she's already scared of his temper and they've not even lived together, well they have lived together for quite a while actually so i mean it's not like they don't know each other but once they're married and they've been married for a couple of years i reckon, and he starts thinking of her more as a possession sort of thing i can, i can really imagine i can just imagine him starting hitting her. i can imagine him being one of these, these, these er husbands who just want, who want, who will want to go out with the lads on his night out and will get, you know, he's a, he's ste i can imagine him being one of these stereotypical husbands who goes out , gets pissed, comes back , who wants the dinner on the table and mm. i can imagine it going in that dir yeah that way. it won't be like it for a couple of years. but he's not the sort of person that'll say ah yeah we've been doing this for a little while, why don't we just take off and go somewhere and fuck it, fuck it, let's just go and do something together he's the sort of person that they would settle down into this safe little life and, which wouldn't actually be that safe for vanessa, it'd be very very you know, much what dangerous wants to do. but i, i can understand why she'd want to marry, why she'd want to do that, cos she hasn't ha well had an awful lot of brilliant times in her life since she left nigeria. nigeria was what kept her alive. she hated living in england. but i don't understand why she hasn't just earned the money and gone off somewhere. yeah but they're gonna, it's such a hard thing to do. i mean especially by yourself, she doesn't know anyone she could do it with. yeah and, and if you could, i mean the thing is, if you're, if er, if we didn't have each other to go off with erm it would have made everything for us a lot different, i mean okay we're lucky we're in a situation where we do know a lot of people who are, who are like- minded mm. and we could maybe find someone else to go off and do it with though it would be a case of finding someone else to go off with and not just sort of like, i mean we mentioned it years ago. well i remember when we first met we wanted to go and do a dissertation together didn't we? yeah! oh can you remember walking around the streets of france saying yeah let's go and do our dissertation somewhere. yeah. funny isn't it how we meet people, how you can know them for ages then you just sort of talk to them, or once you start talking to them you realize that you've got an awful lot in common, yeah. in common. so much in common. yeah. yeah. you know i'm, in some ways you know i'm so glad i've never had like well before you know it used to bother me that i'd never had a long-term relationship and that yeah. erm because it's something other people have and now, now i'm quite happy with myself and feel a lot more sure about the way i think and what i want mm. erm it doesn't bother me in the slightest because i know that i would prefer maybe to be on my own than to be restricted by someone. yeah because the other thing is that although erm you might have all these sort of high flying ideas about what you wanna do and you don't actually feel tied down by a relationship, actually you do live your life thinking well can't really do that because i wanna be with him. mm. it's just a different choice. you might not necessarily feel stuck in it, but it does make you stick around. you can get, you get yeah you can get tied into it without realizing it. yeah. yeah definitely. it just makes leaving that much harder. yeah. it makes like doing anything that much harder. yeah. definitely. mm. what ? no i was just worrying that i always thought that i would never ever like come across anyone who i thought that i can even vaguely click with but i just realized that i can and it's just quite a nice feeling. have you er have you spoken to pete yet? no i've been thinking about that actually, i must you've been saying it for so long . well i know, i b i, i was thinking before i'll wr i, i should write to him but now i, i'm i'm getting towards the stage where i want to write to him. yeah. cos you can't just write to someone, you have to want to write to them really. yeah. cos i'm thinking about it now, i mean it was totally my fault, it was, cos i wanted a relationship he seemed, he seemed alright. he seemed like, he, he, i looked at him, right, and i looked at everything about him and i thought that is the kind of guy i want, which is true, but it wasn't the guy. yeah. and he never, we never really we never, we never discussed things, you know, we talked, we never discussed things really. mm. i never felt like i never felt animated talking to him, you know if you talk to someone you get really, you really get animated and yeah. we always, we always get like, you know, a buzz off it or whatever but oh you do get a total buzz off it yeah i reckon. especially if it, especially if it's someone that you're snogging as well. i do love this tape, i really love it. janet gave it to frank for christmas. ha!make it and i just can't take it no i'm so, i'm so lucky i've met the people i've met, you know, so lucky. i really am. yeah, i often think that actually. i really am realizing it now. and if i hadn't met the people i've met, i think i'd've been a very frustrated person cos erm, even though you can think of something,un unless, if you have other people you can go, if you say to somebody you could say, oh god, you know let's do this and this and this, or i think, really think this or this and someone else goes yes i do yeah. as well, i agree with you yeah. you're like i am right, even though you know you are it's like reinforcing your ideas. also it's kind of er even if you er sort of different people don't, i mean a lot of people don't discuss as much as we do. i've really, really, really realized that. most people don't actually go into things as deeply as we do. we've er oh it's, it's all to do with this sort of special thing that we found. it is, it is true though. definitely. i don't, i don't know anybody that i, i've i mean i've never seen a group, i mean you see it on films every now and then you know , a group of people that really, really spark one another off, like in the big chill and all the things like that but erm i've never seen it before. not, not to the extent of what we've got. not as permanent. my brother actually, michael has been very good he still sees erm cos he's always friends with and they're really good friends. i mean it's not, it's not the same kind of thing that we've got, it's a different kind of relationship cos he's a different kind of person yeah. but erm it's good that he kept up with everyone, they are really good friends and he can really rely on them, they're all really decent mm. really decent people, all, all decent blokes. that's a really lovely jumper, is it new? erm have i seen it before? i don't think i have. i got it in the summer erm but then for some reason i decided i didn't like it. i it's nice but it's a bit, it's a bit erm impractical, it looks, it look it's not as thick as it looks, oh really? i mean it looks very thick. well feel it, it's not. oh it's cos it's this new velvety stuff isn't it? yeah. oh this new velvety stuff . talking about things and things like everything from the universe erm we, because we covered it, and er he's fucking mad, simon, he always makes people think and talk about these mad things that they probably wouldn't talk about that often. yeah. he's fucking excellent, he sparked me off erm shit what was i saying? oh i don't know, i can't really remember. rewind the tape. rewind the tape rewind the tape, let me hear it i'll remember erm no i went away for the weekend this weekend and er made four ta tapes of me and frank in the car driving around from er we went to erm oxford first then we went to bournemouth, then we went to winchester and then we went to cheltenham,. and there's all these cheltenham's nice isn't it? yeah. we went to see this bloke called tom he wasn't there, he was erm a bloke called tom er er do you know this bloke called tom? oh yeah, he's lovely. i know a bloke called tom who lives in cheltenham, he's called tom . oh no, mine's called no? tom . oh. but you must have met him, he's been up here a couple of times. you might have met him vaguely. erm but er it sounds like a very familiar name, ask him if erm ask him if er any of his relations went to cheltenham junior school cos there was a bloke with that surname at my school and it's not a very what school did you go to? cheltenham junior school, the junior school at the college, and it's not a very erm common name did you know a bloke called er you didn't go to the kind of big school though? no, but i might have known him because he might have been a junior. what big school did you go to? do you know a bloke called nick ? yeah, yeah you do? yeah. really? i thought that was him on the photo, was it? is there a photo of him in there somewhere? there's a photo of him in there. yeah, i thought that was him. i looked at it the other day and i thought i must remember to ask. i didn't know him very well but, yeah, anyway he erm oh! yeah he and i, he, he that's two people that i know that you know. he, we shagged the same bird me and nick , not on the same times but oh i went out with her after he went out with her. oh what at school? this, this man-eating girl. what was her name? helena . i can't er i dunno actually, i'm not sure if it was him, he had a friend called rob and he was a blond beautiful boy as well and they were both blond beautiful boys together sort of thing yeah. so it might've been rob that went out with her,but i dunno. but i didn't know him very well but er he was, you know, seemed alright like i've got nothing bad to say about him. yeah. yeah i know he was alr i, i only knew hi i knew him in nigeria. and er that's right he always used to come back with kaftans and stuff yeah. not kaftans, yeah i think he lived in kenya before he yeah. and er yeah what were we talking about before we found out ? . oh before ? we were talking about tom? about being a surname of someone who went to my junior school. oh right. er it could've been him, you never know. like, oh it might have been! i mean his parents live in cheltenham so it could've been. he went to rugby after that though. it's a very it's a very erm uncommon name so it must have been him or one of his relations. and he doesn't have any brothers. cousins. ask, just ask him, it might've been him. mhm. dunno. yeah cos you know erm as well. yeah i must do. ha ha ha ha ha ha erm he's got a fucking limp as well, what's he gonna you're joking? is that a i thought he was a collector or something. yeah i didn't know he was head of well he's, he's not very, oh he's alright, he's not very chatty though is he? the other guy was really friendly actually, he was alright the other guy. he was what, the new one is? no the old tall, that tall one. yeah. bit like dirty den, a bit yeah. yeah. that's why you saw him so often. yeah i'm glad you're having a party. yeah i am as well. something to look forward to. don't you have to can you get it back ? i hope so, i don't know. i'm su well i'm sure you can. yeah. did you erm put down, you know it says purpose of proposed address? did you put down my olds' address or did you ? and so your occupation profession is, is student is it? i put graduate and then i put, in fact i put erm office clerk cos that's what i am. bit better than saying filing clerk. yeah. i put waitress. busy at lunch time. oh it was mad time. i earned quite a lot of money though so oh i was in a really good mood, i woke up this morning in a really good mood, so i kind of danced into work and then er had quite a nice time. and what was it like working for stockbroker ? it was alright actually, i was surprised i thought they would be complete jerks but they are okay. they're erm yeah alright people. yeah. yeah. it wasn't, it was not like quite quiet time, you know, but they said and apparently it can get no cos it can, apparently it can get like that, sort of all yelling and shouting and and the first day i was there i was s sitting there sitting and stuffing envelopes and then suddenly from the other end there's this like, cos we, it's like a big room, it's the other end of the room all the dealers there, and er anyway and er and suddenly i hear, and then someone's like saying talking, they're all, somebody's like mi microphone and starts talking to them about er what's happening in the market, things like that blah blah blah blah blah, and this means blah blah blah blah so watch out for blah blah blah and i thought it's like living in a different world, it's amazing. are they all really young? no they're a real mix actually. most of them aren't er there's, there's a couple of young guys and they look a bit like, you know,bi bit like jerks really yeah i know. but er the ol the other guys seem alright. i worked for a, for a like a, it's a money brokers in, in london but exactly the same stockbroking , and it was exactly like the film, you know, they had this, they had this room, like they had one of those long rooms as well you know with all the desks and computers and stuff but they had this one enclosed off room where all the dealers sat round this massive like circular console type table, and like they were all under thirty but like overweight, all c driving porsches and taking coke and shit like this and right they just, they got into the office at something like six in the morning like i'd get in at nine and i'd be, be wandering around they'd just have their trousers open, shoes off, and stuff and they'd be shouting down they were all like, they were all real east end barrow boys and, and just, it was exactly like the film, just talking talking talking all the time on two phones and like, and like i was just so scared to go in there because i, if you do anything wrong they just shout immediately. you know, and they're like swivelling around on their chairs, it's unr unreal. ah this isn't, isn't at all like that. but erm yeah th but i must admit it wasn't like that all hours of the day, they had, they just had massive lulls when they all just sort of sat there and playing like computer games and just did nothing. yeah. i think also where i was wasn't like the main trading bit, i think it's yeah. like the research department. yeah. i should imagine it could get quite frantic anyway. yeah, i know th th th there's three floors of it and i was, i was on like the bottom floor so it's quite interesting though sort of thinking yeah that all the stuff's being broked around, whatever it yeah i know, that was when i went out erm do you have to have a membership? gill what ? to get to get into the s you wouldn't know. i'm never sure, i don't, i don't know. phone them up. cos i was gonna ask you about that, i wondered like, i wonder if your sister could like find out for us. cos like i mean how did, is your sister a member of ? i don't really, i don't think so. i think cos i presume you must be able to get an application form from somewhere oh yeah yeah i would imagine so but i w er maybe it's maybe you become a member if you go to a few of their and they get to know your faces or something and then you apply but i don't really know. i would imagine that you'd go in with, you know, a member. yeah i imagine that if you were a member you can, you can get in a lot easier and a lot cheaper. yeah. yeah. there was quite a good ? yeah yeah. institute, i heard that erm that john taylor out of duran duran had bought the institute yeah he did. and that er he was er cos er last week there was supposed to be one of these big like rave things on and it was cancelled at the last minute. shut down by the what the institute has? yeah. really? what, because of what? because of drugs? it's just that, it's just that night though, the actual was still open but yeah but i heard that john taylor was he wanted to get rid of the raves in there but and er the all-nighters have been stopped because of it. oh it may have been all-nighters but this it was. this club yeah. yeah he told us he, he told us that they've either that or they're gonna shut down. shame. yeah are you going ? yeah, definitely. are you going to go to the erm one? yeah. craig is really isn't he? yeah. and tell craig that erm , excellent. yeah they're quite, they're doing quite well these people, i dunno who they are but they're doing quite well. got good, good guest djs anyway. yeah. oh right oh what do these people do it all week? yeah. sort of thing? mm. thing is i never know where one person stopped and another person's started, i've got no idea. well if you are, i mean like on, on the er and that's what happened when we went when we went to that other one, went to, you know with janet and frank they didn't a actually i must admit nothing very sexy happened at all. but i didn't mean that but i was in bed with two men though. well i, i slept with two men once and nothing happened. was that on my birthday by any chance? that was on your birthday, yeah. yeah. i remember it was slightly uncomfortable actually . and then you started living with them. yeah. yeah oh we don't have milk in coffee. oh yeah oh now why didn't you say so beforehand! you didn't ask did you? no well normal people do have milky coffee got these little beetles in her flat and she thinks they're cockroaches and she's absolutely having a freak out. you don't get cockroaches in england do you? no exactly. i'm gonna da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da gill we've got a problem. what? you've only got half a mug of coffee . oh! well look share mine we can, we can boil the kettle again, andy's being really horrible to you, he, he poured the coff specially for washing up but it was alright because i knew he was doing it didn't piss me off really. oh is that why you're still going on about it then? yeah coffee. give us a fag. they're on the table. look at it. look at the mess he made making a cup of tea. i know, can't wait till they move out. she doesn't have black coffee, she's . does that mean if you ea drink your coffee black you're not nice any more? no. it just means that when i put milk in your coffee and then you then tell me you've got black, that you want black coffee i just sort of assumed you knew. i think that probably makes you a slag in fact. a what? a slag . i don't think i care to be classified as a slag, you have to sleep around to be a slag. and er but you would if you could, it's just no one wants to sl yeah let's face it yeah. cheers andy. you just know how to make me feel special don't you? can i borrow that cloth? look me in the eye and tell me you don't love it! ow! that was fucking hot. erm yeah did you see david then? he came round? yeah! god i forgot about that,thought he'd drop in. oh i, i was really pleased cos i was a bit worried that he wouldn't do that. oh what, what, what what was he like? what did he do? he was lovely. he was really happy and he, he, he's sorting himself out. he hasn't smoked, he's given up smoking hasn't he? oh has he? cigarettes, yeah. erm ah! yeah, no, no he wasn't smoking. oh. yeah and it was really nice to see him, i gave him a massive hug. apparently he's had a m a couple of mellies on frank. really? what about? just sort of er telling frank he hasn't been a very good friend and things. really? erm tt blimey. don't know, i think he's probably feeling a bit insecure. you know those, these people that get, if they actually do have people employed to analyze these tapes and sit and listen to them they're gonna have such a laugh. or no they're gonna think we're all st totally stupid. me and frank singing country roads. talking about how we need a shit. lovely music. what? music. what is it?music to me. it's hippy shit. hip yeah it's hippy, hippy nonsense. well you can just listen to it cos you're living in my house. that was bob dylan actually, was bob dylan no did you play every single one of your erm your, your records gill, how many have you got, about ten, twelve? i have a solution, i have headphones. i just put my headphones on and i'm happy. have you got any erm heavy metal as well? i have actually do you know what i recorded? from my glam rock time. do you know what i recorded gill are these yours? i, i recorded yeah, help yourself. i said to her why didn't you say something and she said oh well it's not up to me, it's nothing to do with me and i said well, it's more to do with you than do you know what, then? gill listen to this, right, gill who, who's this girl i live with, right, got a knock on the door the other week and this guy come to the door with a wa a sony walkman, yeah, and a microphone that like fixes on to her t-shirt, and twenty tapes and she's gotta make twenty recordings' worth, twenty tapes' worth i've just gotta record all my conversation yeah, conversations all of them cos they're updating the er oxford dictionary andy did you put any coffee in this? what? can you make coffee or what? no i don't like coffee, i don't know how to make it at all. why what's he done? anyway i'd better put some more in yours is it is it piss it's cat's piss. urgh. yeah so ben's coming to stay, you'll meet ben. oh right. he's coming to stay in a couple of weeks. oh good. good. yeah but they, ben and this bloke phil that i used to s be seeing, the one that yeah, that one erm have got this someone entertaining. have got this cottage and they're moving into this cottage in the middle of the countryside. pretend you're a cowboy or, or a bank robber, okay really? yeah they're moving into this beautiful little cottage, yeah. oh how, how did they manage that? has he been working for a long time? well yes philip's a student but they're just sort of paying, it's just rented sort of thing but erm that'd be nice if they did. oh i wish but it sounds absolutely beautiful so we're gonna have to go and visit. shall we do that when we come back? yeah. i don't see why not. i think we should as well. but i mean i'm gonna go and visit them as well. we should keep the door closed. oh we can't really cos we've got music on. yeah, a very concerted effort to remember the bin, there's about sixty out there, it's like when we moved in. not quite though, did you see the bins outside when we moved in? no. all the way up, the whole passageway was just bin bags. fucking disgusting. was that er well did you speak to your sister then? no. one of her friends, darren. this house is so much warmer isn't it? that was great, yeah. it's so nice. so much nicer and my radiator is working, i think it just takes longer than the others to heat up. yeah. what? washing up yeah but that, that kind of er that kind of alienates us from j j er whatsit as well. we did fight for it though. yeah i was fighting very,wanted to do it. did you see it this morning? what? you made life horrible for me cos i was doing the washing up, you horrible horrible horrible person. urgh! i think i might feel a bit sick now. yeah. i wish i hadn't stuffed it down so quick. yeah you wolfed yours down, you fat pig. i was starving though. mm. i started eating my dinner about fifteen minutes before andy and he'd finished before me. did you? what did you do in then? what did you do? went out and lost lots of dogs. and lost lots of dogs you went walking the dogs? like pathetic. on top of a hill thinking he was gonna get blown off. so you we you went to the countryside andy. yeah he was actually. what? you know er you were hippyish in the countryside breathing in the country air and that. that's not hippyish. hippies sit down round camp fires and smoke nasty substances. no they don't, they eat lots of mushrooms. don't like mushrooms. no i don't either. had a big dinner which means that i'm not a hippy. your, your mum cooked a big dinner, your mum cooked a dinner? roast. lovely it was. ooh nice. did you sit there and be, did you sit there and be, be i'm and my lovely, my lovely lovely gravy we had. in parents' house therefore i've got to be nice? did she get polite? i'm polite anyway. my mother? no did na nancy go all polite? no she just talked the bollocks off everyone including my grandmother, it was really worthwhile. i was chatting to his nan, his nan's amazing you know, she's a right traveller. she's a pain in the arse. she's been to every country you can imagine, far east, middle east africa, she likes africa the best. what now she travels? or when she was younger she did? i dunno. now really? yeah? her husband died what, tt thirty year ago she's really and she's travelled for about six months of every year since. she's got such a good personality really? she said look you know. she don't keep her house up, she goes i'm not gonna like get old, grey and old in a house surrounded by all these antiques that like all these memorabilia around me she said i'm just gonna go out and see the world. brilliant! so is she really healthy and stuff? she looks healthy doesn't she? she's alcoholic. ah she's not an alcoholic! so what does she just sort of does she how does she travel then? she is she wasn't drinking. she was! she was pissed as a fart. she wasn't. she was, cos it's free. so she, she, how, where's she got all the money to travel from? she can drink a bottle of gin seriously, a bottle of gin every time she comes to our house. and then drives home usually through the wall. he don't like his nan. i don't like her at all. he doesn't like his nan . she's horrible. she, she's obnoxious. i'd better phone katie hadn't i? really, really obnoxious. no she's just smart i think. i think she's really clued up and he i think she's horrible he she's really like being a sweet old granny. she's getting really old, she's really horrible to my mother. oh wh what, you, really you don't like her? no i really don't like her. shine on yeah my mum hates my gran actually, well she doesn't hate her, she loves her try to love one another right now come on baby now, shine on me brother, everybody get to together, try to love one another right now i've got wo i've got about two earrings, and that's it. this is beautiful this song, it's all about everyone loving each other and such a hippy girl katie . yeah. mind you half of these all about loving yeah . yeah but yours is drug induced, this is just beauty and, and love your neighbour. oh no this isn't drug induced at all is it! no! no maybe not. we were listening to the woodstock tape today to love each andy you know that woodstock tape? have you ever listened to it? i know oh so funny, cracking me up. hi is katie there please. cheers . to you. git. turn it off for telephone conversations well i mean ah ah! well there's not a lot of point having it now really? really cos there's such a cross section of conversation going on, it's really funny there's this bit in the car when we went outside with the mike and on a at claire's party and er erm like there's me talking to claire really loudly like across the car and frank talking to nigel across the front and he speakers were up here and there's just a whaaaaaaa this massive rabble going on. really funny. i told you anyway cos i got, i got a bloody erm so we were talking to cath today, cath's thinking about coming down and like me, chris and john are gonna go to this place in london so you're very welcome to mad enough mm. oh when are they gonna collect it? next friday. friday evening. this friday coming up, yeah. yeah. it'll be quite funny. mm. can you imagine listening to all the tapes? it can't be that much of a great thing because i've got, i've got to go to a twenty first on saturday. do you wanna come? yeah. erm some girl. well the, the first ones that we made going down from here, the car's making a racket, the stereo's like on full blast you can't hear anything we're saying at all. really. i mean occasionally there's a break where we'd sort of get this stupid laughter and stuff but most of it most of it is just sort of like no but it'll be quite funny. it means we can get really pissed and you can charm them all . so do you think you're go you're tomorrow after ten ? asleep by his side erm how's he affording to go to? i would imagine that he's getting help off his parents, to be honest. i don't know. i think he's da oh his dad's paying for everything first. what's the date today, the thirteenth? yeah. erm i think he's got his dad to pay off his i suppose if you think about it his parents probably think it's probably good to get him out of london and get him doing something. yes because at the moment he's just, i mean he's i mean he hasn't, i mean he had that job in debenhams and that's it isn't it really? yeah. so i guess i have done better than some people. mm erm yes so he was just saying that, you know, the only night he's really been out since new year's eve was last wednesday, he's just been in the whole time. well he hasn't got any money or anything. i feel a bit, you know, sad. yeah, and also he lives so far out and he was saying you know, julie's up in er in birmingham, andy 's up in birmingham, he's had no one to see, eileen's come back up to birmingham he sees quite a lot of and er i think he's just a bit lonely. mm. erm but i think it cheered him up saying oh do you wanna come to a party at the weekend sort of thing. that's gonna be really nice i think. i think i might come down actually. yeah do that. i can't mm. so i may as well. it should be quite a, i mean it'll be a funny party and it'll just be it'll be good music. well it would be nice, be nice to meet different meeting different people as well yeah. and having, it's a scene, it's a crowd and and also it'll be good to go to a party in london where it isn't like totally drug oriented, there won't be any drugs yeah. there at all, it'll be just drinks and really? i'm yeah. cos i'm, i'm, i think i'm going through a bit of a a slight off it? yeah. i don't want anything to do with it really at the moment. like a bit not pointless, well it, it's just that i don't really, i'm not getting anything from it at the moment so yeah, same here. but i mean that's just the way it goes, you know, and it's good to have, you've got to have breaks. you can't just you'd have to be mad yeah. really. but i s i know what you mean, i'm quite happy not to at the moment as well. erm but i think it'll be a nice party and the music will be brilliant. this guy called mark that erm tt that frank and janet know very well, he's a really very good d j indeed, you know he's, janet's got a tape that he's made and he's got, using three decks at a time and stuff, he's very good. and it'll be really good sort of like funk go with, you know, sort of soully music and so it'll be really nice i think. think it'll end up a bop? yeah. and also my friend is gonna come. i invited her last oh it was the last time i spoke to her. good. and that'll be good for her as well cos it'll mean that she'll meet and craig yeah. and maybe she'll have someone to visit in london cos she hasn't really got any friends in london. whereabouts does she live in london? tt i think she lives in clapham or something. the rain cries a little pity of one more forgotten hero was nancy gonna come down do you think? or is she gonna stay here? i don't know, i haven't asked her if she wants to come yet really i don't think. oh no her sister and all her mates are coming up this weekend. and say for you it'd be quite good, it'd be quite good to be here actually but just to meet them but tt nah show you something yeah mm. simon's just brilliant isn't he really? he just he can talk to anybody. yeah. like this girl tracey that he got on with really well, i mean i, i'd really disliked her, this girl that claire knows. and when i arrived at this party, she is totally unsubtle and sometimes very rude, you know, and er yeah well the thing about simon that's excellent is that he just accepts people for what they are and he doesn't judge people yeah. yeah. which means if you don't judge people then, you know it's just so much easier. mm. yeah. i wonder how he's gonna find it not being with her. he's gonna find it hard as well i think, but on the other hand they haven't been communicating at all, you know, it's not like no it's not as if it happened suddenly. mm. yeah. i think helen's gonna find it very difficult though. just because even though they don't talk very much any more and stuff and he probably hasn't been spending much time with her, that he's been the thought that he's been there and it's yeah. well i mean they're engaged for god's sake, you know. she thought they were gonna get married. yeah. in the jingle jangle yeah. is andy gone out? he's gone up to smoke i think. oh has he? shall we sit in my room? music. and that way you don't have to just sort of do you know whose button this is? no. yeah i think, i think dave was, i think dave felt a bit nostalgic coming back actually. do you? yeah. what, a bit sad? well he, he did when he came in here, he picked up his and he looked round and it was all very different and then what in here? in this room? yeah. yeah. i think maybe he's just come to realize that yeah. i'll come following you he d yeah it was odd when frank said that cos apparently what happened, he just sort of started saying that he didn't think that frank had really been there for him and that he was being a bit sort of selfish and stuff which i mean maybe he has been but the thing is if you know if frank's making this massive effort to like fit in and meet new people and stuff then yeah. you know, dave's bound to feel a bit neglected. it's a bit stupid to have all this in front of a bloody radiator innit? whoops. we've gotta get a, we've gotta that thing . play a song for me i did wonder what er like when i saw ben i did wonder what he'd how he'd think, if i'd changed and stuff. you know? i'll tell you what, the bed that me and frank slept in was so gorgeous . it was so nice, it was like erm feather thing, feather, feather mattress. feather mattress? yeah. i think it was feather, or down or something. so it wasn't bouncy but the way that it fitted, or the way that you lay on it, it was just so comfortable, yeah, gorgeous. and i realized it was the first time i actually slept in a bed with frank ever. yeah? i've ever, i've only slept with him once. or like i've, i've slept with him in tents and stuff but not in a bed. yeah. and ben like when we were sort of there ben sort of we'd been sitting around for a while and he said it's very embarrassing to have to ask this but you're staying the night and stuff erm are you two a couple or are you just friends so no, just friends but it's alright, if you don't have any spare rooms we'll be perfectly happy to sleep together, don't worry. it was just funny having him asking me. yeah it was a good weekend it was, it was a very good weekend but packed so much packed in. you know i was only away for two nights, it felt like about a week. you saw a lot of people, went a lot of places. yeah. shame tom wasn't in. we were like ringing the bell and both of us were desperate for a crap, absolutely desperate, and desperate for a cup of tea cos we got up at ei er half seven. oh well missed him. what a shame. it might have been easier actually to say she's not coming. are you into going to a pub tonight? i want to wash my hair and i should stay in, i'm stupid going out again. i mean i, i can see why you're going out but it's, you know i need, i need to have a night in i mean i've done, i've had so many stupidly late nights. mm. tell you what i must do actually whilst i'm thinking about it is do take one lot of washing out and put another lot in. yeah now we've got radiators it's very easy. yeah. goodbye she wants me to don't know what she wants. i mean i'm quite happy to go to the pub with her i mean she's alright. i'm quite interested to see how i get on with her actually cos i've only ever known her in the context of tom and darrel really. yeah. i find her a bit hard actually. i get she's not really interested in what i'm saying. yeah, i know what you mean. it's the way that she kind of like answers before you've really got done finishing what you're saying. do you know what i mean ? you know when people do that and you just think well yeah you can't really be listening to what i'm saying cos you cos i haven't finished yet . erm pizza express tissues everywhere. that's better. both t-shirts still look blue don't they? to be free . maybe i put something in that's dyed them again hello hello. come in love. you got what? i like your jacket. hi. hello. how are you? our heating's working again so it's bliss, absolute bliss and lovely. it's nice. yeah. oh lordy! are they? yeah jim came over before and said that he was er going off to do work tonight. andy's upstairs doing work. yeah. no he's doing it at home i think. i think he's, he's like the other day when he was here he was talking about how he was turning over a new leaf and stuff. so don't know how he's getting on. no i know what you mean. i've never really found it that much of an insult ever anyway, but i just think that it's a bit of a term which doesn't really apply to us. do you know what i mean? we've got hippyish tendencies but we're not hippies. well also i mean the term hippy i mean it's not really a real term i don't think. shall i put a bit more, do you reckon that's enough that's okay that little bit of sauce innit? do you reckon there's enough there? is nancy eating? yeah. er er er er er well what else could you put in that would make it more more more tomatoes and more tuna. i might, i would maybe think it might be worth making a little bit more actually. right. shove it all in. do you wanna chop,mu mush that up a bit? okay. but then i'm pretty shit at measurements and stuff cook the dinner well what's left i can have tomorrow. erm in that case are these, this stuff here is it yours? what stuff? this stuff. no. it might be frank's or someone's. i reckon it is. or na oh she won't mind you using it anyway. she's got so much tuna she could bloody start an aquarium up. tuna mind you, they're all dead so it wouldn't be a very active aquarium really would it? think the pasta's done. right do you wanna turn it off then. do you wanna taste it to check cos i might've got it wrong? no i think it's done actually, what am i talking about, i have got a brain. i can make decisions. i'm a graduate. another thing i i've realized recently right, i, i have a brain, i can make decisions, i have an opinion that can be valued by people. i've always valued your opinion. yeah i know you have but anyone else has. do you mean straight? yeah, yeah basically. you know i'd never really valued the the erm the truth in that term, straight heads do definitely think very differently. andy's a real mate he just kept saying straight heads er for all the times when i might have said oh, i couldn't really talk to some people last night and he'd say what you mean straight heads?he's right. totally different wavelength man. it's not just, i don't, well i d i don't think it's no it's not just straight heads but like quite a lot of the time it is straight heads. i think the thing is people who are very straight aren't likely to people who are like very limited in their m their way of thinking. probably maybe a bit of a chicken and egg situation and the egg might have come before the chicken? yeah. yeah. funny way of putting it. deep in my heart safe from the guards is there lots of space at the table? er i can make some space, is it nearly dinner time? yeah. i'll open the wine then. let the wine breathe. it's really funny right erm in the office today this guy paddy got a er a an, an invitation, like a formal invitation to erm a posh do and erm he, he was trying to work out how, how to write the reply correctly. and he asked this girl er can you say that again, sorry? this guy paddy in the office yeah? he had an invitation to a posh do, you know a black tie type of thing? yeah. a for a formal invitation yeah. and he wasn't sure like how, what was the correct way to reply to it, right? yeah. and so he asked this girl jane and, and then he asked me and erm and er had i sat down and thought about it i could have said well er what i thought, you know, the correct way er but i thought well there's correct and there's correct and i think the right way is to write to it and to say yes thanks no there is actually a very formal way of doing it though isn't there? there's, i see what you mean, there's correct and correct. oh yeah, yeah but i, i but i just thought so i, so i,so i, so i said to him well i, if it was me i'd just write back and say thanks, yes i'll come actually, thank you very much cos i thought what you talk about is such a load of bollocks and he looked at me madly, and i thought oh how funny, i thought . i'm gonna have to start explaining myself to people a bit more actually cos they get very, they misunderstand me. yeah but i mean, it doesn't really matter if they misunderstand you does it? but i mean i know what you mean. i a lot, cos i remember erm when claire was i got a really formal invitation to something and i asked claire how you were supposed to reply and she told me the exact wording of how you should reply and i just looked at her i looked at her and i said i'm not bloody writing that. cos it sounded so stiff and so er cheers, lovely alright? oh dear good job i mean the whole point of it is right is it doesn't make any difference how you reply to an invitation. well i know, i mean especially if you know the people, what's the point of being formal if you know the people? exactly. it's so ridiculous. with, with posh people, if th if they were being pissed off by the fact that you didn't reply to the invitation properly then he's a dickhead. people. did you even try? did you even try to get it out or did you just think oh well? oh what! that wasn't doing what i was asking it to do. i wanted it to forward wind, i think i pressed the wrong button. i've got i did have the other one, crossroads, but the reason why i had it was because dave was in the house and he had it. right, right, yeah. and then he fucked off and left me and he didn't give me i di this, it really pisses me off the way that people like leave before you get round to taping the tapes that you liked, do you know what i mean? d'ya know what i mean ? i know what you mean, yeah. now i wonder if this is doing what it's supposed to do, let's have a check. it's a cold night tonight. yeah. it's gonna be minus two. really? yeah. tt can feel it. you can feel it can't you? mm. thank god we've got our heating. mm. are you gonna go to handsworth then? i might go a bit later like meet her. you're supposed to be there at half eight aren't you? no, i'll have to leave at half eight get there for about quarter to nine nine o'clock did they say a specific time then? mm mm just said come round after eight o'clock. oh. no problem. it's a one time thing, it just happened this one's really nice innit? mm. shall i get some knives and forks? erm it's alright i'll bring them out. oh toss, when was that? what was the night before last? monday. yeah i know, the date was it the f it was the thirteenth. yeah? yeah. mm. how many did you get done, four? yeah . you should ta i should take some to my lectures or something. no i i've gotta be there. yeah. oh cheers, nice one. what, oh no this is your holiday now? yeah. what's the date today? the fourteenth? fifteenth. fifteen it's all gone erm it's gone all soggy . you know what makes that not happen? what? is if you put rice in it. yeah cos it absorbs the that's what they do in erm tt that's what they used to do in nigeria. i normally do it but i have been oh we need glasses. it's just, to me, it just makes me feel so much different if i have time to just potter about you know? it just makes me feel, i just can't i've wo worked out that i can't cope with this frenzying lark for all the time, i have to have space to do my pottering. well you've been through a mad, i mean i've been having a mad one haven't i? darrel, darrel and tom and that, i mean er who, are er erm if you look at them though they're, they're not really that i, i, i can't cope with it cos i, i'm just calmer than that and i can't cope with yeah it's also the fact that they didn't have a job or anything and they had the daytime to potter about, do you know what i mean? yeah yeah. so but yeah. yeah also i mean yeah. also they're not used to the way that we're used to living. good stuff jem. yeah? beautiful, yeah. e'er. mm cheers love. mm. in the winter time right. so what do you, did they, what do you reckon's gonna happen at this tribunal you've got to go to? did you see the central news before? tribunal? ah? did you see central news before? when you went upstairs mm and you were in your room, erm it was, like all day at work today there's been loads of activity outside the magistrate's court with like, with erm various cheers girls. cheers. cheers. yeah. with er with like reporters and stuff, all over the place, right? i was watching central news, mr was on it and all, like you know that bloke that comes in with his wife with the grey hair that's always really moody, they have a bottle of frascati and always drink las yeah. eat er always eat lasagne? mm. he was on it, all these people that go in to work all the time like every day were on the telly! what are they, solicitors? yeah, all the solicitors. they're all gonna go to london and campaign about something, we didn't quite see what it was. no cos i was talking. something something to do with cuts in erm like legal funding i think it was. yeah. i think it might, cos like does a lot of legal aid, so erm the, you know, legal aid work and he's quite into it i think, i think he's quite a decent chappie erm what they were basically saying was poor people won't be re erm erm poor people wouldn't be represented well enough, weren't they? it must be something like, like that. some bigwig fuck off cunt erm wanker judge in london has decided it would make less paperwork. well it w wasn't, it weren't wasn't mine, one of my nice friends was it? my nice judges. no, i mean, no someone in london has decided it'll mean less paperwork so all the judg all the erm people in in er birmingham are going down to complain. it's quite good to see someone caring. yeah. yeah. mm. it is actually. it's reassuring, especially the way things are going at the moment. i haven't got a real tribunal to go to. what's this for? oh at handsworth, i'm meant to go there this evening to speak to the domestic bursar the residents' officer and someone else, god knows, from the university to put my case forward for why i had to leave handsworth and that, why i shouldn't pay the money. yeah but i mean you can't, you don't pay the money now just cos someone's moved in. exactly, they're trying to screw me for every single penny they can get out of me so what they're now saying that you've got to well they want me to pay three days until she moved in. ah ha you're joking ? every penny it's getting really silly. that is just stupid isn't it? it'll be about three pounds or something. exactly. or it'll be about twenty quid or something. cos the amount of m m time well, and the administration and stuff. yeah. the administration the price of stamps, phone calls, envelopes office time the , like the administrative people have to deal with your three pounds. that is i know. just stupid, you should say that to them, make them feel really stupid. i will. and also there's a, bloody hell it's so bur it's so bureaucratic. it's a, it's for the students for god's sake, i mean they shouldn't be making like more hassles. they are basically real this is what pisses me off so often you know, things like the halls of residence and stuff are there to help the students and they don't, they just try and rip them off for every cent they can do it for. yeah. they er i mean in, in handsworth right, on this bottom corridor, the boys' bottom corridor, it is in such a bad way you know like they keep erm like putting their fists through windows and things like that, and the amount of repairs and fining. like th what they did one time they all had erm what just cos they're all yobs? yeah. they all had something one night and erm er i wouldn't bother nance we're all gonna get a vegetable done anyway. a nice vegetable yeah, was it fungus by any chance? yeah, yeah they were having fungus one night do you want, does an does anyone want some of this bread because it is really nice and it's not mm i'd like half. it's not er it's not all horrible. it's nice and anyway yeah they had this, this fungus and erm they, they kicked down a door and erm got extremely, extremely energetic and like put like erm er er er in this store, it was a storeroom and they'd put things like the projectors and erm er catering equipment and in this door was what? in this store oh yeah? it was a door to a storeroom and inside this store there was all video equipment, catering equipment oh dear. and they put it in the sinks and baths all round the hall and turned taps on? no they didn't turn the taps on, they just left it all round the hall and, and the door frame had been kicked off and all things like this you know? oh dear. did they get caught? well the people that done it didn't get caught but the corridor on which it happened was fined for all the equipment. oh! a lot of money. so did the people on the corridor know who it was? yeah. only they, they, they must be f mad with them. yeah. they're obviously not gonna say anything but they are very mad. they should get them to pay for it. i know. well i think they are going to, the people that did it tt are gonna pay for it anon er anonymously yeah. via the er hall inhabitants, you know, that cannot afford it. yeah. so at least they won't get done for it cos they'd probably go up to disciplinary and stuff wouldn't they? that on? mm. erm lordy lordy. i remember that we, we had erm a corridor fine in our hall for er just something stupid like they one of the ceiling tiles got broken or something. but we w did you have to pay a deposit? it came out of our deposit. we did, fifty pounds. mm. that's true. i should get that back shouldn't i? yeah. mm there's no reason why i shouldn't get that deposit back. no. because last and that's why they've mentioned it isn't it? yeah. cos with us getting it back was automatic. i think you were in a shitty hall nance . i know. what, what happened about your posters? they just walked in and saw that you had posters up and yeah the cleaners, you know the cleaners have got a key to your room and that and you what cos you'd used blu tak or something? yeah. oh basically you weren't allowed anything up on any wall. well we weren't supposed to have posters up in our hall either. really! mm. and erm y every time the cleaners came round on a tuesday it's not ev er everything had to be on the bed, including chairs er everything, you know, you had to have your desk my cleaner used to come in and i'd be in bed . and she used to clean round me and stuff. cos our cleaners won't clean if it's erm occupied or not everything is cleaned from the floor they won't change the bed sheets unless you've actually taken them off and we're, oh no we didn't, they didn't do that for us either. well we we had that. we had to erm like have, you wouldn't, you wouldn't no wouldn't get bed sheets unless they were actually stripped off the bed, things like that. mm. but i, i, me and claire, by the time we left u h, had a store of bed sheets to bring to our new house. just because like they'd leave them for us and we hadn't changed them. and we'd just shove them on, under the bed and stuff. i had thousands, i mean i gave a load back cos i had loads of them. and the reason why they were shoved under the bed was because i hadn't got round to sort of you know, doing anything about it sort of thing. mm. mm. but i mean my cleaner used to come in and just sort of like clean around me and chat a bit. dave's cleaner in high hall used to do loads of stuff for him, she used to wash his mugs up and all sorts of things. mm. mm. they do in the self catering flats. but erm i'm gonna try a bit of your bread. they're really funny and finicky about a lot of things, you know? it does my head in. and basically they ha and the other thing, right, i found out what they had for dinner the other night right? we had jacket potatoes right, which is literally mouldy and baked hard so you'd get about out of a jacket potato you'd probably get about that much potato and the rest is just skin and mould and hardness quiche which is just like processed cheese and processed eggs and everything you can imagine just total packet mix mm. it tastes like blancmange rather than quiche mm. and erm salad which is just like brown lettuce. and y and i was paying eighteen pounds a week to be catered for. wh why doesn't someone do anything about it? apparently like take it to n u s or something. yeah. because that is just a pile of shit we're not even they're ripping everybody off in that hall. we're not even in it, we've de-affiliated from erm oh that's, that's why it's in that, basically that's why oh people, that's why erm n u s is there to protect man. and nobody handsworth is in a funny neck of the woods basically, it's like off campus, it's university accommodation miles away. miles away, off campus, you know, they haven't got to make it look good so you haven't got, you haven't got any any back up kind of from the no campus, the whole campus feeling i guess is yeah, yeah. mm. it is, it's sort of like it's sort of like extradited from the rest of the er the rest of the whole university, you know, nobody really cares about what goes on at handsworth. but it's like wherever i, you know, if you get a halls of residence on campus you would get put in handsworth, like if you chuck a telly out of the, like one it's like a prison isn't it ? yeah. it's like, you know or a rehabilitation centre. yeah. but it hasn't got anything going for it, basically, whatsoever mm. it's got three tvs though which are really rubbish and one small bar called the bin, village inn it's called, and it is absolutely tiny, and really crap. mm. very expensive as well. it's more expensive than on campus, i mean we haven't got a pub there, we haven't got like the guild bars or anything like that. it's worse than being on griffin close. because there's no erm, there's no like for freshers there wasn't any sort of entertainments during freshers' week on at handsworth, it was all at campus. mm. so how, how do you get in to campus then? do you, is there one bus that goes all the way in? one bus the sixteen, but it's like twenty minutes it's like catching the bus from moseley erm village yeah. from here. you have to walk that far like to get the bus and then get in and then walk back home, it's not too far. but do they erm provide a minibus service no, no there's no to get back? no minibus service at all erm at any time of the day or night and they erm cos we used to have like this minibus service back from the guild mm. even if you weren't in hall, and like girls used to get priority. mm. you could hire out free rape alarms and all that kind of stuff. yeah you hand your railcard over and get yeah, free rape alarm. that is just so shit but a lot of that is to do with the fa is a the whole of aston disaffiliated from the guild, from the n u s? the whole university is. when did they do that? do you know? last year i think, that is just i just don't understand why universities do that, it's so fucking stupid. cos that means that you can't get things like apparently i was talking to like, cos you know a lot of my lecturers erm like student cards and stuff cos that was all mm i know. th no you can, but all student cards and stuff are all negotiated by n u s. i know. and the n u s, you know it is, in a way it is a good thing but in a way it isn't because when they were actual when they actually belonged to the n u s erm they weren't get because it's a small university, they weren't getting much funding from the us er the n u s or erm any support really. i mean it's just like aston is, it is, is, it's, it's a university but it hasn't been a university for that long, it was a technological institute before mm. it's only been a university now for about sort of ten year well not even that, five or ten years i think. mm. and before it was sort of like the tech it was mainly erm sort of post graduate retr er sort of training centre for sort of science erm science graduates yeah. and things like that and it only, it's only become and really it's only actually set up as a business school quite recently as well, i mean what in the past ten years or something mm. as well. erm my course has only been running for three years. i don't think they've actually had any graduates from my no. course yet either. why? cos it's only been running for three years oh of course it's a four year course. four year course. so they don't really know how it runs do they? no. they don't know how it's gonna work. i mean it i mean er the reason why it was set up really was the nineteen ninety two sort of like coming into the single european market and everything yeah. that's what gave them the sort of, the idea to set it up but i mean aston is good because now we're n now we're not eighteen ninety seven, in 's yard which was at in derbyshire. and what what caused your move to you to move to nottingham? well dad he did some drinking. he was on the police blacklist. he got that way, if he wasn't drunk on the days he should have been summonsed they used to trip him up. and as i said he gets blacklisted and he left derbyshire and come down to nottingham to work. comes out of newcastle pit day. chap named bob he was the under manager. it was one of 's pits at the time. of course sold into . the a c collieries. well they had those newcastle that was going towards marketplace. that was an old that was one of those little old pits. well now it's all now. erm well he worked at newcastle until the seam of coal went through and them at pit worked worked it out that mm. part, so newcastle was closed down. when would this be. ooh. about nineteen hundred and ten. nineteen hundred and nine to nineteen hundred and ten i think it was. when that pit was closed down. it used to be you know, on the left hand side. was this down at was it? yeah just just past . now there's all all those houses been built. i noticed when i went by on sunday, that all those houses have been built, right the way down to the , as you go on er p on erm on what's the name of the place where they first er the first lot of . is it?? no it's er you know as you go down road? you pass you pass er the capital past two more roads, streets and you come to this one as goes right the way through into street at . one part of it. now i just trying to think what the other the name of the other one was. runs on to road from street. i can't think. there's a there's the b recreation ground on one corner. you know mm. to er me dad went and to i think pit to work. well he worked there and when i was we'd left er road, we'd been up to up up to terrace. that was next door next door to the baker's, 's. from there we went into c into er i went to and then we come down into terrace. so you moved all round . all around that way. and street was the place you first street start. then st and then e erm terrace and we went into er er somewhere . been there. from there we come into terrace. terrace. mm. do you remember much about in those days? ooh yes. er more houses to what there is now you know. all round street and that way. i went to the school on street. and er you all you always went round the boulevard to another road, another street went there and street went down here. well on that junction there was a catholic school, saint 's i think it was. i was there for so long. well afterwards we got this house at mill on er road. . well that there was a cobbler's shop, and then the sweet shop. then there was our house. then ted 's blacksmiths shop was on the r corner. that was street. now it's avenue, goes right the way round. er mary jane 's sandpit us was not very far from where i we where road school. we used to go across there and we used to go and the hacking away at his . and you used to see you dad'll you you more blisters dad get for when he was chopping this lot. of course his mother kept a place just across road on road away from the er away from road, just a bit further on the road towards towards mill. and that was where the stables was. we went rating ratting there with ferrets and dogs. and there were some rats in those days. now they look as if lean and built a where pit was,built built close there. and i think they put another bid bridge on for t over the now. but that just by where the bridge comes over the top, there used to be a a field belonging to 's. which was at the at the time. we used to walk through there to to to saint 's see. and you used to leave n pit on your left hand side. well when when we went there in there in nin in eighteen ninety four, in er in about ni eighteen ninety eight, they had a snow . er about ninet o o nineteen hundred and eight. they were on strike there. the collieries used to there used to be a wall from the right to the chapel that was at even now in the same place. we used to walk through at back of that chapel right across neddy 's fields, right up through wood. do you remember do you remember anything about this strike? was it pit was on strike? well it was the collier comp com company mm. like, they were on you used to get about five bob a week. that's all they got off the union at that time of the day. of course they helped one another. if one had got thruppence he could go in the pub and get get stop in there nearly for nearly the pubs used to open at six o'clock you know till eleven o'clock at night. were a lot of the colliers boozers like you dad? well th you know the arms as it is now at ? it has a licence till three o'clock. that was only pub that was allowed to keep open till this is af this is after the er licence come in like closing them up and opening in afternoon. they can open at certain times and don't close till three o'clock . that was for the for the men to have a drink if they want one. or s pit was about the first one i seen w that had the that had baths pit head baths in this corner. but that was a bit later wasn't it? was that that was n that'd be er about nineteen thirty. when they got them. of course i was working there in nineteen thirty three. but in between that we e we were dad was w going by train from wh to to to . that used to cost one and six a week, for six days, there and back. mind you it were like all wooden compartment. c they used to call them the horse boxes. but er when i as soon as i was fourteen i walked to and started working next day. i walked from mill to to get that job. mind you they brought me back. who brought you back? in well it were done you know one fellow get on with that. mind you i had a ticket i had a weekly cos . mm. and how much were you you earning when you started? when i first started i were getting fourteen shilling a day. that was when i was fourteen. and getting nearly as much as a man got in some . that was, that must have been a lot of money. mm? that was quite a lot of money then wasn't it ? oh it was a lot of money was. mm. well when i left there, and joined the army, i was getting twenty seven shillings a week. i used to give my mother the lot, she used to give me a shilling back. and if i had anything left at monday, she used to borrow it, forget to give it me back and . i could always ask me mother if i wanted anything. mm. how much was your a father earning at this time? oh about seven and six a shift. so i mean that was top price. before you started work were the family fairly poorly off then? well i was selling papers when i was ten years old ten years old. in nottingham. and we used to be selling them at midnight. well after so long, they brought the brought those passes out for all news boys to have them. well when i i had that used to cost sixpence, but you'd got to be properly dressed afore you went i tell you. that's how i got that corduroy suit. trousers, coat, shoes and stockings. . when i when i when i finished from papers and er started w other i went into in a into er 's bottle washing. was this while you were still at school? that was er that while we was still at school. used to go and feed the pigs. bottle washing and bottling, helping with the bottling. now they erm emigrated to australia. and jack took over. he come from the he was in the post office at er top of top side of ave just top side avenue. well he had it. i didn't like the was . mind you in between that i'd been working on the fa farm farm. and tater picking. we used to get a shilling a day for that. and how often how much work could you get on a farm then? eh? how much work would you get on the farm? how many days a week? well i used to go about everyday. mind you you went early in the morning and come home late in the afternoon. some of the farmers were working till nearly midnight when it was harvest time you know. would this be still while you were at school? yeah. would you be wagging the day off school then? well when i was thirteen i supposed to be having b bad trouble and i went to doctor's and instead of knocking off school at waiting till i was fourteen, i'd finished at thirteen . i didn't bother going to school again, i just didn't. and i'd been to top standard as it was then it was standard seven, and as the er you know now they let when the when they've somebody in so long they let them walk about and come home and all so that time of day you got to you'd got to pass examins and exams and such like as that. and er of course as i tell you, i finished when i was thirteen years old and i was on this er bottle washing stunt and o one chap as lived next door to us, back at er at road he got me his this job on the farm. i went er turnip singling and then er one day they got to go hay making and of course i cou i had naught naught to do then. but i walked in one day and he says, you'd ge better bugger off home, he says,. . that was one form finished. next day i started another form they were doing bird scaring, you know, scaring the birds on the fields. that was all round squire 's place at . i'd been in and the east fields at . you used to get a bob a day for that. what did i tell you, i'd have finished off , bottle washing then then i got this when i was fourteen i walked to and got there. well the first job they had there was clip i was on cl down below on in the pits. there were no training you needed for this that and the other, you went down. and the the they give me as light a job as they can you know. they used to have a clipped get the clips to hang them on the wagon, another bloke took clip off. well the clip is about like that see, two sheets like that with a hoo hoop there and a handle here. the handle is up when you hold it and you hook the hoop, you hang it on bottom of the wagon. underneath the clip it's like a that fitted on the . well when he'd cl er hooked it on the wagon, he puts that clip on, and he press down that arrow. that grips the rope, takes the wagon along in the one at a time. when i'd been there so long, next thing was clipping on. that was taking the clips off and clipping the wagons on. stop so long in the pit bottom like that that is. mm. how were the clips transported? were they did pit ponies pull the pull the wagons ? no. they those wagons were sent up and then the wago the pit ponies at the far e far end of the pit. you see that were end of the the rope was what we call a endless loop. it used to run round, right around and same as your escalators do now. it works a way round see. they take the empties to the end and bring the full ones this road. and you get so much time taking the strips one running them down. and i got the job of going up then they sent me up knocking th knocking the wagons off. and putting coals on at the far end. what did you have to do for this job? what what did you do for this job? what did you do did did you say? well after after after doing the clipping wagons on, i went the other end er cl er knocking clips off. well as i told you at you used to clip them that damn short and we when i was knocking them off, i had to keep dodging down, let the wag and keep knock clips off and chuck the one side and then the wagons came down they went down the hill like that, and then up here there was a hook line to stop them. as that com they c them coming like the they did, you'd no time to . course two deputies sat up at er back end at that end there. of course and i back. mind you i'd i'd been running er ru running the tail route, that's another route as you meet on er goes onto a gate on the left hand side where you got wagons about eight wagons, put it put them back, fasten this rope at the back. and the line they're running down like that. they're going they're going some too i tell you you'd got to keep your head down. used to take them down, run them in one gate, and next day you go a bit further on . alright after you you perhaps took wagons down and put into that place where you and find the old ones in that room where your wagons are you see. and that's how it worked. like er a motor e electric motor,that wagon up. and some in tail room. that's instead of er clipping them on, they used to b instead of clipping them on the back you used to rope at front and one at back see. and it's drawing the wagon you've got control right the way through. well with the others, it used to have to brake, if it were going too fast, you had to brake up a bit. put the brakes on. when you get too much when you'd been er a little bit longer, you'd perhaps go ganging. that with the ponies. and we used to have a box lamp. and that was fi filled with with . i don't mind telling you you used to get some gl glasses broke. mind you in those pits in in it was a safe pit. you know we we had we had the candle lights or these box lamps. and we kept of course they carried er safety lamp to test for g er for any gas at all. after after that after he this deputy had clouted me and i clouted back at him, and they put me er suspe suspending me for a for weeks you see the mana er the manager, i says, i'm not i'm not stopping. so i went and left i got a job at which that was one of 's. whereabouts was ? why it lay down er just down the road as you turned down to it used to be across the fields. well it's a place you couldn't it was practically ste stopped in the fields. of course dad worked at the other pit, that was where he lived. it was er what they called a tunnel pit. a a we had to walk down, but he used to when he was younger he used to break break the ice up formed in, before they could run down. and when i when we went to , i was i was running a four lad for another fellow. we used to one at a time. and that pla that pit got flooded out. mm. running a four lad? what what did you what did you have to do? mm? being a four lad what did you have to do? what was your job as a four lad? just opening doors and let getting in the front letting it come by with th h ho horse and that see. so it was transporting coal in and out of the pit? it was transporting the wagons ? no transporting it on to the main road so they can took took it to the pit bot . they didn't have a endless loop cos i don't think they'd keep one going. it was always got too much water to deal with. mm. a lot of the men, had come from this pit where dad worked. so as soon as er i walked they they said, eh up . that was what they used to call me dad. they knew cos these were the chaps that used to live at . and they were working at this pit. it's just afore you get to . mm. between er and . but nearer . well when we when we got flooded out, i went and saw the man the manager at at . and er he told me i could start and if i could relieved from the other pit, so i went and saw the under-manager at , and i says, aye, he says, you can go. so i started at . er the the boss the manager his name was bob . he had he short tongued or something he was very . he was er you know, he used to stammer a lot. i we had a under-manager come, he come from somewhere down staffordshire way and y you you've talked about tweedledum and tweedledee, they used to call him biffy he was just like like one of them. well at i worked i worked on then until i was se seventeen. what job did you do at ? er ganging an and that. gan er ganging taking coal from you know,fr taking wagons from the main room, going into stalls different stalls. now what what sort of hours would you work? what sort of hours would you work at ? eight hour a day. started at seven, stop at three. and of course for quite a while we were from . aye till i were till i was about fifteen and we we went to live at . well everything it's the d h lawrence about now. but er it were ne we ne we never thought of him,. time. it's all round the buildings as it was then, you know houses all ba all built, all just in see where me mother lives, it was like there were three bedrooms and erm and a back room and a front room, and a basement room, so that you could. you went from street, if you went downstairs and come out the back road and cut across the square you were in street. how how many were there in the family at the time? how many people lived in the house? it were me, me dad, me dad and mother, me i'd got two i'd got er one brother and two sisters. at the fir that was the first though. that's before i went in the army. while i was here that's what just what happened, i joined that army when i was seventeen and three month old. of course you you had to tell them eighteen. and er me and another fellow from we went to joined up there. we we got this cheap and we had to catch a tai train next day at nine o'clock, going to newcastle. into the into the no into northumberland northumberland barracks. one were the one was for the artillery and one was for the infantry. and which were you in? we were in the artillery. this is in nineteen fifteen is it? yes. well i tell you rough, the food was rough, i was never lucky enough to get into into any billet same as some of them got. i was in barracks each time. we came from newcastle to northamptonshire. and it was going in the farm there. best butter and pi tins of pineapple you'd be surprised. well after we had a good time there for so long then there was transferred down to aldershot. then you end u then you was you were really in the army. you had to run when we got there we hadn't got any equipment you know, so we used to get out at night, if you hadn't got your ga bandolier on you got pulled up, the red caps pulled you up, wanted to know what was the matter with you. of course we'd got good excuse. but if you if you hadn't got properly dressed, you couldn't go out. well of course from there, they took us down to southampton. had about half a day about there, waiting for boat to take us across to france. and i'd er went to er we went to you can get you used to get apples. you know everything was just the same as it is here. we went through there. into er into some other places and owt, and had about i had about about two months. then they'd they'd bunged us in the train and sent us down to marseilles. so it was supposed to be going into . we're stopped in marseilles for about a month. had a good time there. and then of course onto the boat. a a and what i i might tell you, i've never been sea sick only once, and that was after i think eating pork pies . well i went all the way through went through to itself. just before get l lord kinl kitchener got torpedoed. we was in in er the end part of n about end of november in nineteen fifteen. so georgie had his eighteenth birthday in . well we were building roads up. when we went there there was only two roads. and we had to go in n r e fe fatigues. making these roads. it were like liquid mud,poor old us as when you'd finished at nighttime you had all that to clean up. and of course the harness was what they call a harness, you know your buckles used to that over that and they were on. we had to keep that clean suppo and they were n you you was working about six days out of seven, i got one or two days extra for not having clean harness i could you hadn't got time to do it. anyway, we and of course we gets up the line at the and then i got a touch of some sunstroke. i took i went to the doctor's and he gave me medicinal duty. i was number nines for you. my officer says, you lie down there, he says, till you're all right. i said then i said, never go into a doctor something wrong. i said, next time i go to see a doctor . as it hap as it happened they had to do two. i was taken into hospital and the er with er malaria and bronchitis. with one doctor, one nurse made me one of the doctors told me to get up. so i got up, but i was that s weak i had to sit down again and er the n the nurse that come in she said, you stop there till doctor comes. he come the next day and he took bled blood tests you've got paratyphoid, into another room. into another shed. i used to sit another of these tent line. see them carrying them out with the union jack. i thought, well i'm not going like that so the sis the sister she was scotch the . the one thing she said, sonny boy, she says, we're you've got one sure you're going back home to blighty. well sent off wi after i'd been about beginning to be co you know, could e eat something, i had cups of tea, with a egg beat up that's what i used to get when you got typhoid. well when we come when we co put on the boat they stop and drop me off up malta. i had about a fortnight there. that was stretcher. well i'd one come from malta to england again, in nineteen sixteen and went on an old boat, they called it the gurkha. and we er used to come through the bay of biscay at that time of the day. and that boat was rocking like this. and we'd got a little old fellow with us, you know, well built very not very big but broad as what he was long. and we said to him, sit on stand on there, me and another fellow we were only two of us who wasn't sea sick. me and anot another fellow. eh, he says, she's not rocking, he said, when you see them lifeboats , he says, you know she's knocking them down. nearly did do. anyway we landed in southampton. the er britannic that was one of the biggest boats at that time of the day, they're using as a hospital ship. it passed us at gibraltar. and we got into m into southampton when she was loading up again. by god it you've seen some ships you when you see them, they're something to look at. well i had another i was in the er i got some much leave you know, then we had to come back to er at back of the er where it er . and when you used to go and on the on an another course driving. you know riding. cos i was driver at at the time. and er there there was a major who'd only got one eye. he he had us all lined up after we'd been riding round and he started enquiring how long we'd been out of hospital . he said, how long you been out, i says, three month. down there he said, don't come up again till out been out six month. well i was so long in in the barracks, they packed me into garrison . and sent me down to down to er down to what's the name of the place now? i went into hampshire round that way. and then i got another when it come to nineteen eighteen we got bombed out again. in march. but that there. did you see much action then? mm? did you did you fight at that time then? did you fight this time? no i was only garrison artillery on guns. mind you we used to fire guns, i saw cathedral knocked down, by gerry. i've seen we'd been firing just observa observation beams they were sixty pounder guns. guns too . we were firing this damn thing, then they started banging us some,. from there they brought us back into back of the citadel. that was just before we started to be and we i finished up and me twenty first birthday in a place called and that was in belgium but in between. and i couldn't buy a packet of woodbines cos they could no shops, nothing. couldn't get nothing. they left us behind and all the lots gone forward then, following gerry into germany. well we stopped and we'd been there about a week, and all men that'd worked in the pits, they were fetching them. mind you i was i was still on three years in in colours and and then i got nine years reserve to do after that. anyway after about a week, all men as been worked in the pits, by the way i'd been down i'd been to the . wi with the with the gas. you know, pick one up and he'd collared thus and taken me. i was down there er week before armistice was signed. i never sent up . and er then we come down down . come through and that way on. that was in christmas time. just after me holi after me birthday. anyway that's what that was the time when i was sea sick, when we come across the channel. when we'd been drinking vin blanc and supping pork pies and and when we sat on the boat, sailor says, you'll not there long, you know, we sat on the bow er on the from of the boat. and he see you there, he said, you'll not be there long. we'd just come out of the harbour at boulogne and a wave come. and we swallowed it. i'd been so good sea sick. cos it just come up you know, and fetch the top. i didn't even same as they say going green or anything like that. and er i landed in er i landed in eastwood in january in new year. which year was this? what year was this? nineteen eighteen. er up to nine and in nineteen eighteen the end of nine the end of nineteen eighteen th it was. well i tell i started back in in . i said to me mother when we start, go to work monday, holiday tuesday, go to work wednesday and holid and holiday thursday and then friday. i did. i went to work monday and i couldn't get out come downstairs for the week i was that stiff. but the promises with work that we had when we went in the army, you j you'd be looked after we got the worst damn place anybody could. i had to walk three mile to work, doubled up when you got so far down . you was boiling with sweat before you started work. was this three miles inside the pit? underground. yeah. from so from the pit head down to the face? from from the from the pit bottom underground it was three mile to walk. and it were about that height. now up about five or si about five foot up in height. you had to bend down when you's walking down. would this be the top hard seam? you'd be working the top hard seam would you ? no this was . it was it was erm main to er to london. it was household coal you know, real good coal. top the hard coal was next shaft to what ours was. we the both together you could g you could go down either shaft, but you had three doors to come through from one pit to the other. and it we tried to open all three together sometimes you know. it used to cause a hell of a me a hell of a draft. well i worked there and then er quite a bit i had to w they had me working on the main road. i u i went in one there was like a junction as come from pit into . the towards th pit bottom like. i had to run them coals out and i tell you the they come over the top of and of course 's coming up here, 's coming down here and did meet there. and the office was just here. of course the boss'd bosses were always there and he was a a right a right fellow you know, he was he he got blacklisted at , they couldn't stand him. one of them sort. he'd swear at you. and if you swore back at him, it was alright. he used to forget it. do you remember his name? scott . he finished up at at at but he was the under-manager at . and that was er under john john was the manager and er i tell you scott come and he started swearing at me and i says, i didn't m ask you for your bloody job,so next er next morning when they goes, he they had they had me walking the rope. i had to see as the wagons in the coals as it shifting, not falling off you see. when you were walking the rope, there's so many of you walki you walk so far t till you meet another fellow,h he goes on and you come back. and they do that all day long. s see that everything's going backwards and forwards. this particular day he comes round to me, he says, take this lamp, he said, bugger off down there, he says, and thou can the coal i'm coming. so i do and do his lamp job. it's just that that just how i i had to be. see if you if things weren't well he'd swear at you. well if it wasn't your fault you'd swear back, which i did. in fact before when i was tha when i was young i was i met th i were on night shift meself ganging. and the manager the un the the deputy met me he says, and i were just going down main road at nighttime as me dad were coming up. and this this deputy says, oh alright george. i says, aye, i says, yes but look what th that look at this bloody thing . and that's as what i swore. you could lift his forelock up like that and you'd see his brain working. and me dad was walking that way. and he heard me. i didn't know till the next we er till the weekend and he made me know as i'd swore. he could swear but i hadn't got to do. not and let him hear it. of course he finished up in the pit w in with his eyesight. it was harvest time in bethlehem and naomi was returning home. and ruth, her daughter-in-law was coming with her. she had made that declaration and that commitment that she would go with her mother-in-law wherever she went that her god, naomi's god would be ruth's god, and that naomi's people, would be ruth's people. and so they come back to the land of moab and make their way to bethlehem. now, i can imagine that when they started off the journey ruth,a was full of excitement and wonder what was gonna happen, what were these people who lived in bethlehem like? were they all like ruth? er, er like naomi? were they all like her husband who had recently died? what were they like? naomi would have been returning again, i'm sure, to start off with a sense of excitement, she was going back home! been a long time since she had heard her language spoken freely. been a long time since she had worshipped with god's people. and yet, i'm quite sure that as they got nearer and nearer to bethlehem their feelings would have changed a little bit. the sense of excitement that ruth would have had might have changed a wee bit to to almost a little bit of fear. will they receive me? i'm a stranger, i'm a foreigner! how will they welcome me? and i'm sure the same sort of thinking would have going through naomi's mind. will they remember me? what will they say to me when i come back home? will they give me the cold shoulder? will they ostracize me? what will it be like? i left when there was a time of barrenness and i went into another country and now there's a time of plenty and i'm going back home what are they going to say to me? how are they gonna treat me? and it was, had been a long weary road for these two women as they travelled back to bethlehem, with their own thoughts and their fears. what would their reception be like? naomi, she was arriving back penniless she had a foreign daughter-in-law, that in itself was proof enough that she had strayed from god's will. the fact she was taking back a moabitess as her, as a relation, as her daughter-in-law was a, would be a constant reminder, i disobeyed god! i fell from what god, from god's standard, i failed god! what would they say? now, ruth knew as well that the, the israelites hated the moabites. how would they receive her? would she be able to work? would she be treated as an outcast. as i say, it was the time of harvest wi , the time of barley harvest when they arrived at bethlehem. there as they come and look over the cities, small city, and they see the fields there around the city with the grain waving in the breeze ready and ripe just waiting to be harvested. it must have looked a beautiful sight! they would hear the happy chatter of the people in the harvest field, because although it was hard work, it was happy work. harvest is always a good time. all the year's work, the sowing, the preparing, the hard work, it's now been worthwhile because there's a harvest to reap, there's plenty now. and so, there'd be the happy chatter of people as they were working, knowing there was gonna be enough and to spare. they would get through the winter without any problem. they wouldn't have to pull in their belts, they wouldn't have to eke it out and ration themselves because there wasn't enough, it was an abundant harvest! god had been good to them! he had seen them through the lean years, and here now was a good harvest. and seeing these two women coming down through the path towards the city the people of bethlehem,yo you'll read it there in the opening of chapter two in the book of ruth, the people of bethlehem, they left their fields and came running to greet them! they gave a to , a beautiful greeting. in the,th the end of chapter nineteen it says all the city was stirred up because of them. and the women said is this naomi? and she said do not call me naomi! cos you know,th th it was mentioned the other week, that word, that name, it means pleasantness. she said, call me mara, for the lord, the almighty has dealt very bitterly with me. she got it all wrong again! the lord hadn't dealt bitterly with her, she had gone out of god's will, she had taken herself out of the covering of god's protection and blessing. the lord hadn't dealt bitterly with her. in fact, he was being very gracious to her, in allowing her to return and to come back, he had drawn her back. and you know, for you and i, so often, imagine, think back to the time when you did not know jesus christ how easy it was to blame god for this and for that, if there's a god of love in heaven why doesn't he do something about it? why doesn't he do this? why does he allow this to happen? it's so easy to blame god isn't it? and we did our share of it, i'm quite sure. and all the time god was reaching out to us in love, drawing us to himself, yet we didn't realize it. but anything goes wrong and it's god's fault! if it goes right, well that's just great isn't it! tha that's wonderful! you know, god doesn't get any credit for it, doesn't get any thanks for it, but anything adverse happen and god, why did you allow this to happen? but you know, the tragedy is that this doesn't just happen when we're non christian, it ha can happen when we're christians as well. but oh, it's it's, it can never ever be god's fault because he always, always deals with us in love. we don't always like what he does to us but it mus , we must never, ever it to make us bitter. and naomi makes the mistake, do not call me pleasant, call me bitter for the almighty has dealt very bitterly with me. i went out full, but the lord has brought me back empty. you see, the great thing is, not that she came back empty, but the great thing is she came back! that was what god was wanting to do, to bring her back. and even if it meant bringing her back empty, he was still bringing her back. and the people receive her, they welcome her. now, the israelites had been taught to welcome strangers and to look after them and ruth's fears must have been allayed as they receive her, there's no cross examination, there's no inquisition, she doesn't go through any third degree, she is received back at face value. they've come back and now they could begin to experience the blessings that god had planned for them. while we're out of god's will we cannot expect to experience god's blessing. he would not be true to himself if he showered us with blessings while we're outside of his will. but once we come back to that place, and wherever we go from him we have got to come back to where we started, where we left the road. when we come back to there then and only then can we expect, er to experience god's blessing for us. and as they come, as naomi comes back to the place where she went astray so god starts to bless, so much so that she doesn't know whether she's standing or sitting! she is overwhelmed by god's blessing! that's the great you know, god doesn't keep an account of our failings. he doesn't mark them and say right, boy you went astray then you're gonna pay for that! you're gonna go through it until i think it's time to, to start blessing! god doesn't deal with us like that. if the lord would mark inequity, who of us stand. but the moment there's that response in our heart towards him, there he is with arms open wide to receive us and to shower us with his blessing. now i'm not quite sure whether it's because we've known, like naomi, we've we know periods of barrenness and leanness that his blessing seems so much more, i don't know if that's what it is, or whether it is just because his blessings are so bountiful, but she is overwhelmed by god's goodness and by god's blessing to her they could now experience god's blessing. but the tragedy is she could have known those blessings all through those years, if she had never left if she had never gone down to moab. the extent of those blessings then, that god pours on her, there were far greater than anything that she could have imagined! you know, you and i today are still reaping, are reaping now the result, the benefits of the blessings that god poured upon naomi. because, out of her daughter-in-law and so on down the line, comes david, and then comes jesus christ. all god's ways are beyond our ways. and whilst it was never, it could never have been god's will for naomi to backslide with elimelech her husband, and to go into moab out of the mess that they make of their life, out of the mistakes that they, they perpetrate again and again, god somehow in his graciousness, in his mercy brings goodness from it! his ways are so far beyond our ways. only we'll let him have his way. and so we see the way of blessing. ruth and naomi, they'd lost all their possessions and the most prominent member of the family was a man called boaz by skill and carefulness he had increased the family wealth and fortune and now he was a mighty man of wealth! and before ruth and naomi could know anything of god's provision, there was two steps they had to take. and you know, it doesn't change, god still re makes a requirement of us. the first thing they had to do, and oh this is a difficult one! they had to humble themselves. it would not be easy to acknowledge themselves as the poor relation. they were the ones in the family now who had nothing. she said, i went out full th , presumably she and elimelech had a nice little nest egg, they had a comfortable bank balance, they had plenty, we went out full but now she comes back empty. certainly, they would not go and beg from wealthy relatives! but there was a way provided for them in god's word. so you see ee god doesn't leave things for chance, he doesn't leave people on the scrap heap he reaches out to them all the time. and so, er, when th the reapers were gathering in the harvest they were not allowed to go right to the edge of the field, they had to leave a border, they were not to go right into the corners, they were to leave those areas, so that the poorer members, so that those who did not have could come and could gather what was left behind. to go out and glean then, would be an acknowledgement for everybody to see that they had nothing. they had no land of their own, they had nothing to harvest of their own, they could only go and harvest, and glean what the harvesters left behind. now, such a humbling would not be easy for ruth and naomi but it was the only way for them. and they were willing to humble themself . you know, the first step in getting god's blessing is to humble ourselves. if we humble ourselves then he exults, and we exult ourself , he then has to humble us, and to be humbled by god is a fearful thing! the bible never tells us to pray to god to humble us that's a dangerous prayer! but it says humble yourself under the hand, under the mighty hand of god, then in that day he will lift you up, he will exult you! and so to get god's blessing there's gotta be a, we've gotta humble ourself. and then the second thing was, they had to be willing to work. gleaning was hard work. now, harvesting is not easy, that's a back breaking job! but when you've got a full field to harvest at least you're getting something but when you're just going around the edges and picking the bits that are left behind that is a hard job you're spending as long but you're not getting as much. they had to work hard. it was tedious! it was boring! it meant starting early in the morning and continuing till late in the evening. but ruth goes out and she diligently applies herself to it. so much so, that the foreman he sees it and and he commends her to, to boaz his boss as a good worker. he marvels at her diligence an and the way she continues there. and god's blessings came to ruth only as she was willing to get out and do something. you know, as we sit back and just wait for god to bless us we'll wait an awful long time. he requires that we do something, that we get on, that we become involved. and as we are, as we are active, as we are active in his service and his work, then he is able to bless us. it says it's the devil who finds work for idle hands. god doesn't give anything to the idle! but the devil gives them work to do. notice also, we'll hurry along now, the source of blessing. as a gleaner, ruth could have gone to any part of the field, but she happened to come a fo , part of the field that belonged to boaz. you know, to the christian, to the believer there is no such thing as luck, things don't just happen. as soon as ruth acknowledged her poverty and her willingness to work god stepped in and guided her life in a way that would bring great blessing. she could have gone anywhere, but god directed her. she'd committed herself to god's ways, and to god's people, and god directs her, and she comes to the field of boaz and there was none more able to meet her need. he was a mighty many of wealth. you know, if you're gonna get help from anybody, get it from a rich person ! they can give you more for a start. and so he wa , he was a good person to go to. he was one who was concerned for the welfare of his, of his employee. he was obviously a good boss to work for. he was a kindly man. he was a man who feared god. and perhaps, i won't say most important, but very, very importantly, he was a near relative of elimelech, ruth's father-in-law and that would play a big part in redeeming the property. we're not gonna go into that today, don't worry! but it was a vital thing! of all the people of all the land owners there, of all those who had fields, or bits of a field to harvest, god directs ruth to boaz and you can see the abundance of the blessing there. seeing this stranger among the gleaners boaz asks his foreman about ruth, and she is as we've mentioned, she, he talks about her diligence, about her respectful ways, about her, her consideration for other and boaz offers to her, three things, he offers to her guidance he says, don't go anywhere else, you stay here. he offers protection, he says nobody's gonna molest you, he says i'll look after you. nobody'll hurt you, nobody'll harm you. he offers her provision, far more than she ever expected. he offered an as yo as you read it there in the opening of chapter two, he offered her drink, at meal times she was to eat the food provided for boaz servants he gave to her the extra portion of parched corn and also he provided extra gleaning for her. and we see a beautiful picture here of god's provision for us, as we come into his family. as our heavenly boaz, as the lord jesus christ, as we come under his control. he offers guidance, he says, don't go to any other field, where else can you go? he said to his disciples when some started leaving, he says, will you go away? and they said, who can we go? you've got the words of eternal life, there's nowhere else to go. he offers protection, no one will molest you. he says, i will never leave or forsake you. there is power in heaven, in earth, or hell that can touch you when you're under my protection, when you're in my care! he said, none shall pluck you from my hand! and he offers provision far more than we can ever expect. provision, materials, spiritual provision. able to satisfy us and meet our need, day after day, year after year, as the decades even, and go, we still er find sufficient and ample provision at his table. david says, doesn't he, there in that beautiful twenty third psalm! he said, you anoint my head with all, my cup runs over! i've, and he, again he, the the psalm says, i come into your banqueting house, and er er,so solomon rather, and your, and your banner over me as well, there is sufficient provision for every one of us! and so what happens? ruth comes home with thanksgiving. she hasn't been one of the harvesters, she's been but a gleaner, but god has provided for her. and that night ruth arrives home to tell naomi of all the wonderful things that has happened to her and she hands over the result of her day's labour. farm more than naomi could ever have expected. and you know, as we come and submit ourselves to god, and as we look back, whether it's back on a day, on a week, on a month, on year, on a lifetime, he has given to us far, far more than we could ever have asked or expected from him!, as the apostle said, he is able to do abundantly above all that we can ask or think! and this is it, this was ruth's experience, and it can be yours and mine, as we allow him to lead us and to direct us as we come, become part of his harvest. can i just change the picture in closing thinking of harvest is not just the harvest that we reap for ourselves, the benefits that we get, but jesus said also, he said, you look on the fields, they're white all ready to harvest. the only thing was they weren't white to harvest, they weren't even ready, the crop had not fully grown, and yet jesus says it's white, all ready to harvest, what is he speaking of? he's speaking of this time now and this age when it is now harvest time. and you don't have to wait, we can't wait until the end, he said but now is the harvest time, get on with the job now! and he says, pray the father, the father, pray the husband man that he will send labourers into his harvest field. see the harvest field, you and i get the benefit from, but jesus said you pray for labourers to go into the harvest field. if praying to god to humble ourselves is dangerous, praying the father to send labourers into the harvest field is equally dangerous. because when you pray that he doesn't send the person beside you, he doesn't send the other person he says, right boy up and at it! he says it to you and he says it to me. you start answering your own prayer. you want labourers, you pray for labourers, well you're the first one! and he calls each one of us to be labourers together with him in his great harvest field. we're gonna sing a song now in in closing that puts this challenge to us, it's number one sixty one in the, songs of fellowship, it reminds us that we're the ones, not the other person not the young person that shows so much promise that we think, not somebody else who is so much more gifted than we are, but here, it says, here i am available. i'm the one that can answer that prayer. you are the one that can answer that prayer. one sixty one then, let's sing it through. not just as a, not just a song that we're singing at the end of a sermon but as a prayer, yes, here i am lord! for this harvest time. thanking you for the great benefits of your goodness to me tokened in these natural provisions here. but lord, as i see your harvest field i wanna be part of it. i wanna be involved in it. there's nothing wrong with those. they're perfect. absolutely perfect, now why is she erm getting her well she thinks you're on a high dose, you're not, you're on an okay dose. now we've had you w that's right. we're we're waiting inn here we we're still on three months so we're alright. so mid october, so we've actually mm. got a a a while to go yet before we decide what we're going to do with that. but your levels are perfect, okay, it's got nothing to do with lithium. no i i think it's just a really bad case of m e again . yeah , yeah. well she she told me that your m e type symptoms had got a lot worse and i said that's we had at that's what i chatted with her about the other day but i've i've been really housebound for five mm. weeks now, yeah. and it's driving me mad. i i'm yeah. you know i feel just mm. dreadful. yeah. but it but it is typical m e symptom . well that's right, a sort of low achy, tired, tired yeah. and more tired. that's right and i'm very depressed. yeah. are keepi you are i mean obviously you are keeping yourself going cos you're obviously getting out to come here and do bits and bobs but well this is the first time i've been yeah. able to come here on my own. yeah. erm and that's not like me, i usually manage to you know . now you're usually okay, aren't you ? yeah but er it really has knocked me for six this time. mhm. erm i think it's probably that infection that i had er yes. it may well be . that thrush or whatever it was . yeah. yeah. er it takes very little, well you know yourself mm. don't you? yeah. i mean i found it in the past, you know any infection what so ever just knocks you for six. and and i'm just, you know, i i think that's probably why jo was mm. c i think i she'd seen me at my worst on friday yeah. and and yeah. i think it worried her a bit. yeah. yeah. but er your lithium levels are absolutely fine. they're almost exactly the same as you were four weeks ago. i thought they were actually cos i i even at that part of yeah. it it felt yeah. erm yeah. yeah. normal . yeah. good i mean the headaches are i'm reluctant to say better yeah, but not so but bad. but they're certainly no not so severe. yeah. do you find they respond better if you take dihydrocodeine when they're there as well? yes. yeah. yeah exactly what i's expect and you may find they actually sort of are on a down-slope still. and maybe it's a very shallow down-slope but still on a down-slope. mm. and that's what i'd i do actually feel better. i i eat i don't usually take my first lot of tablets till sort of around dinner time. and i find sort of about an hour or so afterwards i do actually start to feel anyhow we're g we're gonna summarize your lithium in october of course, that's mhm. and that's fine. what i would apart as far as the levels are concerned i'd check them again in septem erm no hang on we've just checked them. i'd probably check them in october again. two months, cos you seem stable . two months. you seem st unless you get any particular mhm. to it i would recheck that in october. and then when we see you then we're going to sort sort of summarize what three months on effected levels of lithium has done for you. to decide whether to continue . is it a drug that you can stay on? they've got people who've been on it for years and years. mm. you've got to keep checking the level. mm. it it's a funny little drug it's related to sodium, old sodium, you've got loads of sodium. you take it it everyday as with salt. er but i i it can replace sodium in certain systems of the body. in fact that's how it seems to work. but because of that you've got to watch it's effect on the kidneys, on the body biochemistry. mm. so that's what we have to check from time to time. mm. but it's very very safe provided you keep in within the sort of dosage like driving on the motorway. it's safe if you st stick to the speed limit. mm. usually. could you give me some more of that hormone cream? yes. i was going to ask how you'd gone with that. well it's better but it's not right . yeah. yeah. well you've only mm. been on it a fortnight. yeah. so er but find i'm down to using it twice a week now . twice a week. yeah. so i haven't yeah. used it this week. alright, okay. yeah. but it's certainly an improvement yeah. to what it was. oh good good. i mean the advantage of that is you get loc you get the local benefits without generalized side-effects. mm. er and that can be a problem with some folk when you try to manipulate the hormones like that. but i'm actually using more and more of this cream, as i realize that er if you direct it towards the right part of the body in the right people, mm. it works extremely well. as i say it's just erm overall feeling generally well i mean horrible. and you know to some extent it's just time and keeping yourself ticking over that's going to get that aspect of things better. yeah. and that's frustrating for you and it's equally frustrating for me because i know there's absolutely nothing i can do that's right. to effect that. but it's important we keep other an eye on the other things, keep other things ticking over and things like the hormone cream and the lithium will be a help in that. yeah. i mean sometimes just by resting really er you know puts me back again but er it hasn't yeah yeah. don't overdo the rest. well i were going to say i can't rest. you've got to find a compromise. i mean it's it's always a com i mean the whole of life is a compromise but especially with this. the compromise between resting when you feel very very tired, and keeping yourself going so you don't seize up. mm. but you can't overdo the mobility cos you get very very tired. yeah. well i've been you know, very conscious of that. and i and when you've had it a long time you mm. become and i'm not the sort of person to sit around willy nilly any way. but my legs my legs are like jelly, my body's like rubber, you know. and i sort of oof. ooh i get so mad. keep other bits of you going. okay? when when do you want to see me again? well. all else being equal, i would say october with the lithium level and then we're gonna have our review of lithium. okay? if anything flares up in between that's fine. there should be enough cream there now for four to six weeks on a twice weekly basis, but if you run out just give a ring in. right. that's fine. well i'll need my other tablets yeah. well of course you'll need those anyway. so er under our usual conditions, exhibited in . we start today, number one, with a silver charm bracelet. silver charm bracelet, with the charms on it, ten pounds for it. the charm bracelet, five pounds for it then. five . any advance on advance on five? six , seven, eight, nine, ten gentleman up here on my right hand, ten pounds. any advance on ten pounds? have you all finished ten pounds? any advance on ten pounds? number four, ten pounds. and number two, well necklace and two rings. necklace and two rings. , five pound for them. six , seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds. twenty two, twenty four. any advance on twenty four? gentleman twenty four pound. any advance on twenty pounds twenty four pounds. number four, twenty four pounds. lot number three,watches, here you have a ring watch. a stone set ring watch and a ladies bracelet watch,two together, ten pounds for them. two pounds. bid, any advance on two pounds? four, five, six, seven, eight. any advance on eight pounds? nine i'm bid. ten, eleven, twelve. any advance on twelve pound? any advance on twelve pound?twelve pound. any advance on twelve pound . number four twelve pounds. lot four, two watches again this time. two watches again, the designer a watch and a ladies bracelet watch,. ten pounds again for the two. five pounds again for them then. five, five i'm bid. any advance on five pounds? six i'm bid. seven, eight, nine. any adva ten i'm bid. any advance on ten?for them. any advance on ten pounds for the two watches?ten pounds. number four ten pounds. and on to lot number five, an eighteen carat gold necklace this . this eighteen carat stone set necklace. ah it's a nice necklace . on ten again to start it. ten i'm bid. and advance on ten pounds,twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. any advance on eig twenty pounds, twenty two. any advance on twenty two pounds? any advance on twenty two pounds for . twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds. any adva thirty two. there's a gentleman seated there in the thirty two pounds . thirty two pounds. and number seventy six, thirty two pounds. number six five silver chains, there we are five silver neck chains. ten pounds the lot. ten pounds for five silver neck chains. five pounds? five i'm bid. any advance on six i'm bid. seven. are you all finished then?seven pounds. any advance on seven pounds seven pounds for them. number four, seven pounds. and number seven, a nine carat gold insignia ring. there you are,rings. twenty pounds . ten ten i'm bid. any advance on twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. any advance on eighteen? twenty pounds, new bidder. twenty two. any advance on twenty two. twenty two pound. any advance on twenty pounds the lot? number four, twenty two pounds. number eight, a ni er an amber ring this time. there you are, a nine carat er amber ring. well it's a nice piece of amber. well ten pounds again to start. ten. any advan five then. five i'm bid. six in the front now. seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. gentleman here now. thirteen , fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. any advance on eighteen? gentleman here in the front eighteen pound. any advance on eighteen pound . eighteen pound. number eighty two, eighteen pounds. number nine, two necklets. well,stone pendant and this little cut set necklace. and a stone necklace. make up your own about them. there you are, ten pounds the two. ten po ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds for two necklaces? and advance on twelve for the lady? fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty. a lady twenty. any advance on twenty pounds for two necklaces? all finished now at twenty pounds the lot. twenty pounds. twenty five, twenty pounds. number ten, some miscellaneous jewellery again, assorted jewellery. including this holograph pendant. miscellaneous jewellery. again now, ten pounds again for the lot. five pounds for it then. jewellery five. want it. three i'm bid. any advance on three pounds, the miscellaneous jewellery now? any advance on three four i'm bid. five. any advance on five? a lady in at five pound. any advance on five pounds the lot. five pounds. number thirty eight, five pounds. number eleven, two watches again. here you are, the two watches. there you are a ladies watch, a cocktail watch and a seiko bracelet watch. the two again. ten pounds again to start them. ten pound? ten i'm bid this time. any advance on ten pound? ele twelve i'm bid. fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. any advance on eighteen?eighteen? any advance on eighteen pound for the lot. going in at eighteen pounds for two. and it's buyer forty three, eighteen pounds. number twelve, the hunter watch. a hunter watch this time. there you are gent's hunter. hunter, thirty pounds for it. ten again to start it then. ten ten i'm bid. any advance on twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty. any advan thirty two. any advance on thirty two? thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight. any advance on thirty eight. thirty eight pounds. any advance on thirty pounds for the hunter watch? at thirty eight pounds. buyer eighty, thirty eight pounds. number thirteen, a nine carat six bar bracelet. there you are, nine carat gold, er gate bracelet. and we'll have it again, a nice gate bracelet. thirty pounds for it. for the nine carat gate bracelet. ten again to start it then. ten? ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pound? twelve i'm bid. fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty,twenty two, twenty four, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight. th the gentleman at twenty eight. are you all finished now at twenty eight pound?any advance on twenty eight pound the lot. , twenty eight pounds. number four, twenty eight pounds. number fourteen, a nine carat er gate bracelet again, this time. now that's a nice gate bracelet. and it has space for taking two sovereigns. nice er heavy gate bracelet, and we'll have it again now. there you are. hundred pounds for it. well fifty pounds to start it i'm bid. any advance on fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, one hundred pounds, one five, one ten, one fifteen. the gents bid sitting in the front row, at one hundred and fifteen pound. any advance on one hundred and fifteen pounds the lot? at one hundred and fifteen pound. number four, one hundred and fifteen pounds. and number fifteen, a nine carat and . nice nine nine carat and jewel this time. jewel, nine carat gold one. a nice jewel there you are, and i'm bid there you are fifty eight . any advance on fifty eight pound jewel? any advance on fifty eight? sixty, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight, seventy pounds, seventy two. any advance on seventy two pounds, the masonic jewel. are you all finished now at seventy two pounds the lot. at seventy two pounds. and it's buyer number seventy two, seventy two pounds. and number sixteen, a nine carat sovereign bracelet again this tim. and it's set with one sovereign. there you are, this sovereign bracelet with one sovereign again. and we'll have it there now. one hundred pounds again for the sovereign and the bracelet. well fifty pounds again to start it. fifty pounds the lot. fifty? fifty i'm bid. any advance on fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight, sixty, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight, seventy pounds, seventy two, seventy five. any advance on seventy five? lady's bid now seventy five pound. any advance on seventy five pounds the lot? seventy eight, eighty pounds. any advance on eighty? the bids eighty pound. any advance pounds the lot? at eighty pounds. buyer forty one, eighty pounds. to lot number seventeen. diamond and sapphire ring this time. there you are, the diamond sapphire cluster ring. a nice diamond sapphire cluster ring. three hundred pounds for it. the diamond sapphire cluster ring. i'm bid. any advance on two hundred pounds the lot? two twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty. any advance on three hundred and twenty pounds, the diamond sapphire cluster ring?three hundred and twenty pounds. the lot at three hundred and twenty pounds. buyer forty one, three hundred and twenty pounds. and on to lot number eighteen, a silver pocket watch this time. there you are the silver engraved silver pocket watch, a nice little pendant watch, and we'll have it again now. there you are, thirty pounds again for the watch. ten again to start it then. ten. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pound for the lot? are you all finished now at ten?twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, any advance on twent twenty eight i'm bid. any advance on twenty pounds the lot? are you all finished now? thirty pounds i'm bid. there's a gentleman now at thirty pound. any advance on thirty pounds for pendant watch. are you all finished now at thirty pounds. the lot at thirty pounds. number twenty three, thirty pounds. number nineteen, a twenty two carat gold bracelet . it's eighteen. well there you are eighteen carat gold er bracelet, there you are stone set bangle. well this eighteen carat stone set bangle. fifty pounds for it. stone set bangle. thirty pounds then? let's get going. thirty? thirty i'm bid. any advance on thirty pound. thirty two. thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two. any advance on forty two? forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight. any advance on fifty eight pounds?now fifty pound. any advance on fifty eight pound for the lot?going in at fifty eight pounds. buyer seventy two, fifty eight pounds. and lot number twenty, nine carat gold metal court bangle. there you are gold bangle,have it again. there you are . ten pounds again for the bangle. ten pounds or it? five i'm bid. any advance on five? six, seven, eight, nine, ten. any advance on ten pounds? eleven i'm bid. now eleven. any advance on eleven pounds? twelve. any advance on twelve? a gent's bidding in the centre at twelve pound. any advance on twelve pound?are you all finished now at twelve pound. and the number is one oh two, twelve pounds. number twenty one, the tudor watch. a ladies shape tudor watch this time. a nice gold tudor watch with a gold bracelet. have it again. thirty pounds again to start it. nice gold tudor watch. twenty. twenty i'm bid. any advance on twenty pound? twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight. it's again to the gentleman bidding at my right now. thirty eight pound. any advance on thirty eight pounds, the watch. are you all finished now? it's going in at thirty eight pounds the lot. thirty eight pounds. number four, thirty eight pounds. number twenty two, the gold southern cross brooch this time. a stone set er southern cross brooch. there you are. have it again. a nice gold brooch gold southern cross brooch. ten pounds again for the gold souther cross brooch. ten pounds again for it. five again to start it i'm bid. any advance on five? six to the lady, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen. any advance on fourteen. a lady on my left now fourteen pound. any advance on fourteen pound? the lot at fourteen pound. twenty five, fourteen pounds. number twenty three, a sapphire ring again this time. yellow sapphire. well that's a nice dress ring, it's a nice dress ring. they say it's a yellow sapphire that's time. well you've made up your own mind about it. there you are, forty pounds for it then. well twenty again to start it. twenty. twenty i'm bid. any advance on twenty pound? any advance on twenty pound for this er ring? twenty two is the gent, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. any advance on thirty two? i'm bid thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two. any advance on forty two pound? any advance on forty two pound the lot. are you all finished then? it's going in at forty two pound. fifty seven this time, forty two pounds. number twenty four, a ring again. there you are,gold dress ring again this tim. nice little dress ring. ten pounds again for the dress ring. ten pounds for it? a dress ring. should be worth ten pounds for it. . eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen. any advance on fourteen? lady on my right at fourteen pound. any advance on fourteen pounds? the lot at fourteen pounds. number nineteen, fourteen pounds. number twenty five, a gold gate bracelet. there you are, a little four bar gate bracelet this time. a nice little gold bracelet with a padlock, twenty pounds for it. ten again to start with then, ten twenty, ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds? at the back twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four. any advance on twenty four pounds? a gentleman on my right again at twenty four pound. any advance on twenty four pounds the lot? twenty four pounds. number four, twenty four pounds. and number twenty six, a gold diamond sapphire ring. well there you are, they say it's diamond and sapphire eternity ring. well there you are make up your own minds. there you are was we have it again now. there you are, thirty pounds for it,eternity ring. thirty pounds the lot. ten again to start it then. ten pounds again for the eternity ring. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds?my right now, twelve. fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two. any advance on twenty two?right now twenty two pounds. any advance on twenty two pounds the lot, twenty two pounds. and it's number four, twenty two pounds. number twenty seven, a diamond eternity ring again this time. there you are, a nice little diamond sort of boat shaped eternity ring this time, there you are it's a nice little eternity ring. thirty pounds for this one. nice modern ring. ten again to start it then. ten i'm bid, the lady at ten. twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two,twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds. a lady's bid this time at thirty pounds. a lady here on my left now thirty pound. any advance on thirty pound the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at thirty pounds the lot, thirty pounds. twenty five, thirty pounds. number twenty eight, a diamond sapphire ring again. now here you are, a triple cluster ring, diamond sapphire triple cluster ring this time. there you are, fifty pounds again for it. fifty pounds the diamond ring. thirty. thirty i'm bid. any advance on thirty two, thirty five, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty, fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight. any advance on fifty eight pound? any advance on fifty eight pounds the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at fifty eight pound. number thirty eight, fifty eight pounds. and number twenty nine, an eternity ring. a nine carat eternity ring again. a little stone set eternity ring. well a little dress ring this time. ten pounds for it, a little stone set eternity ring. ten. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds the lot? are you all finished now at ten? it's going in eleven i'm bid. twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. any advance on sixteen pounds the lot. at sixteen pounds. number four, sixteen pounds. and number thirty, a pair of eighteen carat gold earrings. there you are this pair of er heavy eighteen carat gold earrings, there you are, the pendant earrings. we'll have them there now, a good pair of earrings. have them there. fifty pounds for them. fifty pounds for a pair of earrings, must be worth that in gold. no? thirty then. thirty i'm bid. any advance on thirty pounds for the earrings? any advance on thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight, sixty pounds, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight. any seventy pounds. any advance on se seventy two, seventy five, seventy eight, eight pounds. the lady's bid now to eighty pound. any advance on eighty two, eighty five, eighty eight, ninety pounds. any advance on ninety? the lady again at ninety poun ninety two, ninety five. any advance on ninety five. the lady bidding on the left now at ninety five pound. any advance at ninety five pounds the lot. are you all finished now? it's going in at ninety five pounds. number forty one, ninety five pounds. and on to number thirty one, a sapphire and diamond ring again. there you are there you are sapphire diamond cluster ring. have it here again now, twenty pounds again for the small wee dress ring. small sapphire diamond cluster dress ring. ten again for it then. should be worth ten. ten i'm bid. any advance on twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two. any advance on twenty two? the gentleman here in the front now, twenty two. twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. any advance on thirty two? the gentleman sitting here in front of me now at thirty two pounds. any advance on thirty two pounds for the lot? number eighty two, thirty two pounds. number thirty two, three nine carat gold rings. nine carat er rings again this time. there you are for the for the ring. a three colour gold ring and a little coin set ring, there you are, for three of them. fairly heavy rings. forty pounds for three rings. forty pounds for three of them. well twenty pounds to start them then. twenty i'm bid. any ad twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds. any advance on fifty pound? any advance on fifty pounds the lot? no? are you all finished now? they're going in at fifty pounds the lot, at fifty pounds. number fifty seven, fifty pounds. and number thirty three we're on to. number thirty three, three nine carat rings again this time. including a heavy wedding ring, a claddagh ring, and a little ring as well. there you are, for three rings again fifty pounds again for the three. well thirty pounds again to start them then. thirty, thirty i'm bid, any advance on thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds. any advance on fifty pounds?any advance on fifty pounds? alright are you all finished now, they're going in at fifty pound. fifty seven, fifty pounds. lot number thirty four, a nine carat gate bracelet again. there you are a little four bar gate bracelet. a nice little gate bracelet again this time. twenty pounds again for this one, with its padlock. ten again to start it then. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pound? any advance on twelve? fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. any advance on eighteen,twenty pounds, twenty two, twenty four. any advance on twenty four? the gentleman here in the front had it at twenty four. any advance on twenty four pounds the lot? are you all finished now at twenty four pounds. one oh two, twenty four pounds. lot number ninet er thirty five. lot thirty five, there you are,set ring. and it's morning ring. have it again now, ten pounds again for it. nice little ring. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at ten pounds for it. are you all finished now? ten, it's away, too late. ten pounds and it's er number four. lot thirty six, a diamond ring again. there you are diamond three stone crossover ring. a nice diamond three stone crossover ring. nice modern ring. two hundred pounds for it diamond ring. one hundred pounds again to start it i'm bid. any advance on one hundred pounds the lot? one five, one ten, one fifteen, one twenty, twenty five, one thirty. any advance on one hundred and thirty? one thirty five, one forty. any advance on one hundred and forty pounds for it? are you all finished now? it's going at one hundred and forty pounds the lot, at one hundred and forty pounds. forty one, one hundred and forty pounds. and lot number thirty seven, a nine carat gold wedding ring. a nice engraved nine carat wedding ring this time. there you are, ten pounds again to start it. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pound? el eleven i'm bid then. twelve, thirteen. any advance on thirteen. thirteen pound. any advance on thirteen pounds for the wedding ring? . are you all finished now? thirteen pounds. number forty one, thirteen pounds. and lot number thirty eight, well three nine carat charms. three nine carat gold charms, as we have them there now. for the three of them as we have them then. there you are, thirty pounds again for the three. thirty pounds for them. ten again to start them. ten. ten i'm bid. any advance on twelve? fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty five. any advance on twenty twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight. the gentleman sat up here on my right now, thirty eight pound. any advance on thirty eight? are you all finished then at thirty eight pounds? number four. number thirty nine, a gold three stone ring again. there you are a little three stone ring as we have it again now. there you are a little diamond three stone ring. a nice little crossover ring, as we have it again. thirty pounds for it. modern ring. thirty pounds again for the lot. ten again to start it then. ten pounds for it. should be worth ten pounds for it. ten i'm bid. any advance on twelve? fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four. any advance on twenty four? gentleman there on my right now, twenty four pound. any advance on twenty four pounds the lot. twenty four pounds. number four, twenty four pounds. number forty, a sapphire and diamond ring. there you are, this little sapphire, diamond cluster ring, again this time. there you are twenty pound again for the little dress ring. twenty again. ten again to start it then. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds? eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. any advance on seventeen? a gentleman near the front this time at seventeen pound. any advance on seventeen pounds the lot? at seventeen pounds. eighteen, new bidder, nineteen, twenty pounds, twenty one. any advance on twenty one pound. a gentleman here in the front of me now, twenty one pounds. twenty one pounds. one oh two, twenty one pounds. number forty one, there you are, this ruby diamond ring they say. there you are, a little ruby diamond boat shaped ring. a nice little er antiques style ring. ah there you are, as we have it again now. and i'm bid er forty two,. any advance on forty two pounds, the little boat shaped ring? and advance on forty two pounds? no? are you all finished now? it's going in at forty two pounds the lot. at forty two pounds. buyer s er seventy two, forty two pounds. and lot number forty two, this er gold bracelet watch. ladies er bracelet watch again this time. a nice nine carat wristwatch with a nine carat bracelet. well there you are. a lot again. thirty pounds for it. the bracelet watch. twenty. twenty i'm bid. any advance on twenty pounds for it? and advance on twenty pounds for the watch? any advance on twenty? twenty two, twenty four. any advance on twenty four then? twenty six, er twenty eight. any thirty pounds. and ad the gentleman up here on the right had thirty pound. any advance on thirty pounds for the watch? are you all finished at thirty pounds for it? at thirty pounds? number one oh one, thirty pounds. number forty three, a crystal necklace. now crystal necklace, a nice crystal three row row necklace this time. there you are, ten pounds for it, the crystal necklace. ten pounds for it, it's a nice crystal necklace. ten pounds, should be worth ten. well five again to start it then. five pounds the lot. five i'm bid. any advance on five pounds for the crystal necklace. are you all finished now? five going in at five. and it's buyer number thirty eight, five pounds. lot forty four, a nine carat gold ring. there you are,there you are, this nine carat gold ring this time. there you are this is the sovereign side, but there's no sovereigns in it. it's a nine carat dress ring. as we have it there again now. thirty pounds for it. nine carat ring. twenty again to start it then. twenty i'm bid. any advance on twenty pound? a gentleman there on my right now, twenty pound. twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. any advance on thirty two p thirty four, thirty six. any advance on thirty six? thirty eight i'm bid. forty pounds. a gentleman over on my right now, at forty pound. any advance on forty pounds for the ring? are you all finished now, it's going in at forty pounds the lot. number four, forty pounds. and lot number forty five, a seven bar bracelet this time. a good heavy seven bar bracelet with a padlock. looks a nice gold bracelet. a nice gold seven bar bracelet. fifty pounds again to start it. fifty i'm bid. any advance on fifty pounds. a gentleman fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight, sixty pounds, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight, seventy pounds. it's a gentleman up here on my right now at seven seventy two, seventy five, seventy eight, eighty pounds, eighty two, eighty five, eighty eight, ninety pounds, ninety two, ninety five, ninety eight, one hundred pounds, one hundred and five, one ten. any advance on one hundred and ten pound? one hundred ad fifteen. any advance on one hundred and fifteen? gentleman there on my left. any advance on one hundred and fifteen pounds for the bracelet there. are you all finished now at one hundred and fifteen pounds. and the number is seventy seven. one hundred and fifteen pounds. number forty six, a diamond sapphire ring again this time, there you are a little diamond sapphire dress ring again, twenty pounds again for this one. twenty pounds again, ten again to start it then. ten pound. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten? eleven i'm bid. twelve, thirteen, fourteen. any advance on fourteen?on my left now, fourteen pound. any ad fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds. any advance on twenty?twenty pound. any advance on twenty pounds the lot? are you all finished now? twenty pounds. number ninety one, twenty pounds. forty seven a a wedding ring again. a nice heavy plain gold wedding ring. ah it's a nice heavy nine carat plain gold wedding as we have it again. twenty pounds for it. nice modern plain ring. ten again then. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten? eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds, twenty one , twenty two, twenty three. a gentleman up here on my right twenty three pound. any advance on twenty three pounds the lot? are you all finished now? twenty three pounds. number four, twenty three pounds. number forty eight, well two nine carat gold rings again. there we are the two dress rings. little dress rings as we have them there now. twenty pounds for the two. ten pounds for them then. little dress rings. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds? eleven i'm bid. twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. any advance on eighteen? gentle now nineteen, new bidder, twenty pounds, twenty one, twenty two. any advance on twenty two? there's a gentleman here at the back now, twenty two pounds. any advance on twenty two pounds for the lot. number four, twenty two pounds. and lot number forty nine, a nine carat single stone ring. er there you are it's just a little dress ring, just a little stone set dress ring, it's a nice little modern ring though. there you are, ten pounds for it. it's a little modern dress ring. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pound? a gentleman seated again at ten pound. any advance on ten pound for the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at ten pounds . too late. . ten pounds and it's number four. and lot number fifty, a nine carat eternity ring. this nine carat stone set eternity ring. a eternity ring. stone set . ten pounds again for this one. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds? yeah. eleven i'm bid then. twelve. reserved for sale. thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds. any advance on twenty pounds the lot? are you all finished now at twenty pounds? number four twenty pounds. and lot number fifty one, three nine carat charms again. there you are, three nine carat charms as we have them there now. the three charms. there you are, the lot again. twenty pounds again for the lot. twenty i'm bid this time, any advance on twenty pound? twenty two, twenty four, twenty six. any advance on twenty six?at twenty six pound. any advance on twenty six pound? alright, all finished now? twenty six pound. and the buyer sixty three, twenty six pounds. and lot number fifty two, two rings again. there you are the two little stone set er one's a stone set dress ring, and the other gold er dress ring. the two little rings again as we have them there. ten pounds again for the two. ten i'm bid. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pound. gentleman on my right again eleven i'm bid then. twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. any advance on sixteen pounds for the two. are you all finished now at sixteen pounds? number four sixteen pounds. any number fifty three, the belcher chain. well there you are, it's a gold belcher chain on a nice little gold belcher chain as we have it there. twenty pounds for it. it's a nice little belcher chain. ten again to start it then. ten pound. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds, a little gold neck chain. eleven i'm bid. twelve, thirteen. there's a gentleman again at thirteen pounds. any advance on thirteen pounds, the lot. at thirteen pounds. number four, thirteen pounds. and lot number fifty four, another chain. a serpentine chain this time. nice gold chain ten again to start it. ten. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds the lot? eleven i'm bid. twelve, thirteen. it's the gentleman again at thirteen pound. are you all finished then at thirteen pound? well thirteen pounds. number four, thirteen pounds. and lot number fifty five, a stone set bracelet. well there you are, this eighteen carat they say it is, eighteen carat stone set bracelet. so that's a nice bracelet, as we have it here again now. one hundred pounds for it. eighteen carat stone set bracelet. fifty again to start it. fifty i'm bid. any advance on fifty pounds? fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eight pounds, eighty five. any advance on eighty five pound? any advance on eighty five pound. alright are you all finished now at eighty five pounds. number forty three, eighty five pounds. and number fifty six, a diamond a diamond set initial pendant. we are a little diamond in it. the s p the initial s with a little diamond set in it. well twenty pounds for it, the little initial pendant. twenty pounds the lot. ten again for it then. should be worth ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds the lot? any advance on ten. eleven i'm bid. twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. any nineteen, twenty pounds, twenty one, twenty two. any advance on twenty two pounds the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at twenty two pounds the lot. twenty two pounds. twenty seven, twenty two pounds. and number er fifty seven. we have er two gold charms, two eighteen carat gold charms. there you are the little flexible fish and a star charm. there you are, the two together as we have them again. thirty pounds for the two. twenty. twenty i'm bid. any advance on twenty two? twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. any advance on thirty two pounds the lot? are you all finished now? they're going in at thirty two pounds the lot. thirty two pounds. buyer forty one, thirty two pounds. number fifty eight, a diamond set er . well there you are it's a little er diamond set pendant this time. a ten gram pendant. there you are as we have it again. fifty pounds for it, a little pendant, with a diamond inset. thirty again to start it then. thirty i'm bid. any advance on thirty pounds the lot, are you all finished now at thirty? thirty two in front of me. thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five, fifty. there's a gentleman here in the front again,gentleman seated here in the front fifty five for them. any advance on fifty five for them? are you all finished now. going in at fifty five pounds. and the number was? ninety eight. eighty eight. ninety eight. ninety eight. number ninety eight. and number fifty nine, a little er gold er ruby diamond ring they say it is. a little modern dress ring. rubies and diamonds. well there you are for the as we have it again now. fifty pound again for it. a nice little diamond and ruby dress ring. fifty pounds the lot. thirty again to start it then. thirty pounds. thirty. want it. twenty i'm bid. twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. any advance on thirty two pound? any advance on thirty two pound for the dress ring? are you all finished now? it's going in at thirty two pounds. buyer thirty eight, thirty two pounds. and lot number sixty, miscellaneous jewellery again. a few pieces miscellaneous jewellery. the enamel bar brooch, a pair of earrings. well there you are, for the jewellery as we have it again. the bar brooch and the pair of earrings. five pounds the lot. nice pair of earrings there, should be worth five pounds on their own. pounds the lot. three. three i'm bid. any advance on three pound? four i'm bid. five, six, seven. any advance on seven? gentleman here on my left now seven pound. any advance on seven pounds the lot? at seven pound. number one oh six, seven pounds. number sixty one, there you are, a little three stone ring again this time. there you are a three stone diamond ring again. there you are, fifty pounds again to start it. thirty. thirty i'm bid for it. any advance on thirty pounds? thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds. any advance on forty? forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five. any advance on fifty five? any advance on fifty five pounds a diamond ring. are you all finished now at fifty five pounds the lot. buyer seventy two, fifty five pounds. lot number sixty two, another diamond ring again, this time. a two stone ring with a diamond set shoulder. there you are, fifty pound again to start this one. i'm bid this time. any advance on fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight. any advance on fifty pounds for this one now? any advance on fifty pounds the lot? fifty eight pounds, seventy two, fifty eight pounds. number sixty three,we er three three bracelets. well there you are, three fine nine carat gold bracelets. well there you are as we have them there now. there you are, twenty pounds for three of them. ten again then for three nine carat bracelets. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds the lot? eleven i'm bid. any advance on eleven. the gentleman here, twelve. thirteen. the gentleman here on my left now thirteen pound. any advance on thirteen pounds the three. all finished now? they're going in at thirteen pounds. one oh two, thirteen pounds. number sixty four, a diamond ring again. a seven stone diamond ring. a eternity ring again this time. a nice er eternity ring. well it's a nice ring this time. there you are, one hundred pounds for this one. well fifty pounds. fifty i'm bid. any advance on fifty pounds? fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy pounds. any advanc seventy five, eighty pound, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, one hundred pound, one five. any advance on one hundred and five pounds, the eternity ring. any advance on one hundred and five pounds the lot? a hundred and five pounds. and it's buyer fifty seven, one hundred ad five pounds. and on to sixty five. there you are for this er gent's singles stone diamond ring this time. there you are for the gent's ring this time. a nice gent's single stone diamond ring. fifty pounds for it. for the gent's single stone diamond ring. fifty pounds again for the lot. thirty pounds to start it. thirty. thirty i'm bid. any advance on thirty pound? any advance on thirty? thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds. any advance on forty pound. lady, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five. a lady now at fifty five. any advance on fifty five pounds the lot? all finished now? it's going in at fifty five pounds the lot. forty one, fifty five pounds. number sixty six, a diamond and sapphire ring again. here you are, a diamond sapphire cluster ring. it's a nice diamond sapphire cluster this time. well there you are, forty pounds for this one. well twenty pound again to start it. twenty i'm bid, any advance on twenty pound right now, twenty pound. any advance on twenty two? twenty five, twenty eight, thirty pounds. the up here, thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight. any advance on thirty eight? any advance on thirty eight?forty pounds, forty two. any advance on forty two?forty two pound. any advance on forty two pounds the lot, at forty two pounds. sixty sixty three, forty two pounds. number sixty seven, well three nine carat charms again. well there you are,. well there you are the lot again. twenty pounds for three charms or pendants. twenty pounds for three gold pendants. twenty i'm bid. any advance on twenty pounds? twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight. any advance on thirty eight. gentleman here on my left now thirty eight pound. any advance on thirty eight pounds the lot? number one oh six, thirty eight pounds. number sixty eight, a nine carat diamond and sapphire ring again. there you are, a diamond sapphire cluster ring again this time. there you are, it's a nice diamond sapphire cluster ring. and i'm bid seventy two . any advance on seventy two pounds the lot? any advance on seventy two? seventy four, seventy six, seventy eight. any advance on seventy eight? are you all finished then at seventy pound? any advance on seventy eight pound the lot? seventy eight pound. buyer seventy two, seventy eight pounds. and on to lot number sixty nine, there you to this er ring again. a nice diamond set ring again this time. as we have it again. ah it's a nice little diamond ring, one hundred pounds again for this one. well fifty i'm bid. any advance on fifty five? sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty, eighty five, ninety pounds, ninety five, one hundred pounds, one five, one ten, one fifteen. any advance on one hundred and fifteen pound for it? are you all finished now? it's going in at one hundred and fifteen pounds the lot. number seventy two, one hundred and fifteen pounds. and lot number seventy, we have er a gold necklace and bracelet. well here you are, the bright cut necklace and bracelet this time. it's a nice modern n bright cut necklace and bracelet. there you are thirty pounds, the two pieces together. thirty pounds for them. well twenty to start them then. they should be worth twenty. nobody want them at twenty pound? twenty i'm bid. any advance on twenty pound? the gent sitting on my right now, twenty two. twenty four. any advance on twenty four? twenty six. any advance on twenty six? twenty eight, thirty pounds. any advance on thirty pounds? any advance on thirty pounds the lot. are you all finished now? they're going in at thirty pounds the lot. at thirty pounds. number forty three, thirty pounds. number seventy one, a cluster ring,a stone set cluster ring this time. well a nice showy dress ring. twenty pounds for it. a cluster dress ring. ten again i'm bid, any advance on ten pound?twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six. any advance on twenty six pounds the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at twenty six pounds the lot. twenty six pounds. number four, twenty six pounds. and lot number seventy two, a nine carat gold mandolin pendant. well there you are a stone set, garnet set mandolin pendant. there's a nice pendant. nine heavy pendant. there you are, thirty pounds for it. a mandolin pendant. thirty. twenty then i'm bid. any advance on twenty pound/ the gent sitting on my right now, twenty pounds. any advance on twenty pounds the lot? you're all finished now? twe twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty four. the lady's bid now thirty four pound. any advance on thirty four pound the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at thirty four pound. ninety five, thirty four pounds. and number seventy three, a diamond ring again. gent's er diamond ring again this time. the diamond set signet ring as we have it there. four stone diamond ring. as we have it again now, two hundred pounds for it. one hundred pounds again i'm bid. any advance on one hundred pounds? one ten, one twenty, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty. any advance on one hundred and sixty pounds for is. are you all finished now? one hundred and sixty pounds the lot. one hundred and sixty pounds. and it's number forty one, one hundred and sixty pounds. and number seventy four, a single stone diamond ring. there you are, a little single stone ring this time, as we have it again. there you are. fifty pound again to start it. thirty i'm bid. thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty, forty two, forty five. any advance on forty five pounds for the little single stone ring? are you all finished now? forty five pounds the lot. forty five pounds. buyer seventy two, forty five pounds. and lot number seventy five, a a nine carat gold sapphire ring again. there you are it's a little diamond sapphire dress ring again this time. a nice little diamond sapphire dress ring. there you go thirty pound for this one. well ten again to start it then. ten pounds for the ring. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten? twelve, fourteen. any adv sixteen, eighteen. any advance on eighteen? twenty pounds, twenty two, twenty four. any advance on twenty four pound. now twenty four pound. any advance on twenty four pounds the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at twenty four pound. and it is number ninety one, twenty four pounds. number seventy six, well two nine carat rings again. two nine carat dress rings this time. a little jet set ring and a stone set dress ring. for the two together, twenty pounds again for the two. two little dress rings. should be worth twenty. well ten again for them then. ten pounds for two rings. ten i'm bid. twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. any advance on eighteen? twenty pounds i'm bid. twenty two, twenty four. any advance on twenty four? the gentleman down here on my left now, twenty four. the gentleman here on my left. are you all finished now? twenty four pounds the lot. twenty four pounds. and it's one oh six, twenty four pounds. number seventy seven, a gold identity bracelet. well a small gold identity bracelet this time. a nice little i d bracelet. ten pounds for it. a little i d bracelet. bracelet. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds the lot? are you all finished then? are you going in at ten pounds and away. and it's number four, ten pounds. and number seventy eight, a diamond cluster ring. well there you are a nice little diamond cluster ring, multi-stone cluster as we have it again now. there you are, one hundred pounds again i'm bid for it. any advance on one hundred? one ten, one twenty, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty. any advance on one hundred and sixty pound? any advance on one hundred and sixty pounds the lot? are you all finished now, one hundred and sixty pounds. and it's number seventy two, one hundred and sixty. and lot number seventy nine, a buckle ring. a nice gold buckle ring this time. there you are, a gent's gold buckle ring, twenty pounds for it. gold buckle ring. ten again. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds? eleven i'm bid. then twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. any advance on eighteen? a gent bid at the back at eighteen pound? any advance on eighteen pound for the lot? at eighteen pound. number four, eighteen pounds. number eighty, an ingot. well there you are, this gold ingot, well it's a gold probably one ounce ingot i would imagine. there you are, for this gold a nice nine carat gold er ingot pendant as we have it again. one hundred pounds for it. well fifty pounds to start it then. i'm bid fifty. any advance on fifty pounds? fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight, sixty pounds, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight. seventy pounds, seventy two, seventy five, seventy eight, eighty pounds, eighty two, eighty five, eighty eight, ninety pounds, ninety two, ninety five, ninety eight. any advance on ninety eight pounds for the pendant. are you all finished now? it's going in at ninety eight pounds the lot. all done? ninety eight pounds. and it's buyer sixty three, ninety eight pounds. lot number one, an eighteen carat er ring again this time. there you are, they say it's a ruby diamond ring, well it's a nice victorian style ring. there's two of the small diamonds missing though, but there you are, we sell it as we have it there. fifty pounds again for it. fifty pounds again for a little diamond boat shaped ring. t twenty. twenty i'm bid. twenty two, twenty five, twenty eight, a lady, thirty, thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty, forty two. any advance on forty two? any advance on forty two pounds for the ring? all finished now? forty two pounds for the lot. buyer sixty three, forty two pounds. and lot number eighty two, a diamond cluster. well there you are, it's this little diamond cluster ring this time. ah it's a nice little star shaped cluster ring as we have it again. thirty pounds for it. a nice little diamond start shaped cluster ring. thirty pounds again to start it. thirty i'm bid. any advance on thirty pounds the lot? are you all finished? it's going in at thirty pounds the lot. are you all finished now? it's going in at thirty pound. it's away, too late, thirty pounds. and number four. number eighty three a nine carat gold diamond sapphire ring. there you are a little diamond sapphire ring this time. little sapphire there. there you are a diamond sapphire ring. forty pounds again for this one. forty i'm bid this time. forty two, forty five. any advance on forty five? any advance on forty five pounds the ring. are you all finished now? it's going at forty five pounds the lot. forty five pounds. number forty three, forty five pounds. and lot number eighty four,two stone set rings again. two stone set dress rings er a cluster ring and a eternity ring. together. twenty pound again for the two dress rings. twenty pounds for the two. ten again for them then. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds? eleven i'm bid., twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds. any advance on twenty pound? a gent there at the back now twenty pound. any advance on twenty p twenty one then. any advance on twenty one? the bid's down here in front of me now at twenty one pound. any advance on twenty one pounds the lot? are you all finished now? twenty one pounds. ninety eight, twenty one pounds. and lot number eighty five, there you are, this diamond eternity ring again this time. well it's a four stone ring it is. there you are, four in a straight, nice little diamond ring again this time. fifty pounds again i'm bid for it. any advance on fifty five? sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds, eighty five, ninety. any advance on ninety pounds, the diamond ring. are you all finished now at ninety pounds the lot? are you all finished now. it's going in at ninety pounds the lot. ninety pounds. number seventy two, ninety pounds. number eighty six, er some assorted jewellery again. there you are chains again this time. n neck chain and bracelets. well there you are, two bracelets and a jet neck chain. gold items again. ten pounds again to start them. ten pounds any advance on ten pounds. the gent eleven i'm bid then. any advance on eleven? twelve, thirteen. any advance on thirteen? the lady on my left now at thirteen pound. any advance on thir fourteen fi well there's a gentleman here in the front at fourteen. fifteen i'm bid. any advance on fifteen? sixteen. there's a gentleman here beside me now at sixteen pound. any advance on sixteen pound? alright. are you all finished now. it's going in at sixteen pounds. ninety eight, sixteen pounds. and lot number eighty seven, a necklace again. a gold necklace again this time. there you are. well that's a nice heavy gold necklace. as we have it there. there you are,gold necklace again as we have it there now. there you are, one hundred pounds for it, the gold necklace. well fifty pounds again to start it. fifty i'm bid. any advance on fifty pounds for it? fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy pounds, seventy five, eighty pounds, eighty five, ninety. any advance on ninety pound? any advance on ninety five i'm bid. one hundred pounds, one five. any advance on one hundred and five pound? any advance on one hundred and five pounds the lot? are you all finished now? one hundred and five pounds. seventy two, one hundred and five pounds. and lot number eighty eight, a diamond eternity ring again. there you are a eternity and a little cluster ring and a little eternity ring. there you are, the two little rings together now. one's little diamonds and sapphires. er eternity ring and a little diamond cluster ring. well the two rings again as we have them there now. thirty pounds for the two this time. thirty pounds. well ten again for them then. ten i'm bid. any advance on ten pounds? twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six. any advance on twenty six? twenty eight. the gent's bid in the bottom wall now twenty eight pound. any advance on twenty eight pounds the lot. are you all finished now. they're going in twenty eight pounds the two. twenty eight pounds. and it's number ninety one, twenty eight pounds. number eighty nine, a cluster ring again. there you are,sort of er oblong shape cluster ring. well it's a diamond cluster ring again this time. one hundred pounds again i'm bid for it. any advance on one hundred pounds? one five, one ten, one fifteen, one twenty, twenty five, one thirty, thirty five, one forty. an one forty five, one fifty. any advance on one hundred and fifty pound? any advance on one hundred and fifty pounds for the diamond ring. are you all finished now at one hundred and fifty pounds the lot. and it's number seventy two, one hundred and fifty pounds. and number ninety, a diamond sapphire ring. well it's a nice diamond sapphire cluster ring this time. there you are as we have it again. fifty pounds again to start it. fifty i'm bid. any advance on fifty two? fifty five, fifty eight, sixty, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight. any advance on sixty eight pound? and advance on sixty eight pounds the lot. are you all finished now it's going in at sixty eight pound. and it's m buyer forty one this time, sixty eight pounds. and lot number ninety one, a diamond ring again. there you are, the diamond solitaire ring, set in a white gold. well a little diamond ring as we have it again now. fifty pounds again to start it. fifty i'm bid. any advance on fifty pounds the lot? any advance on fifty five? sixty, sixty five, seventy pounds, seventy five. any advance on seventy five pounds the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at seventy five pounds the lot. seventy five pounds. number sixty three, seventy five pounds. and lot number ninety two, the diamond five stone. there you are, the diamond five stone ring again. a nice diamond ring this time. there you are. and i'm bid one hundred and sixty this time. any advance on one sixty? one seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred. any advance on two ten? two twenty, two twenty, two thirty, two forty. any advance on two hundred and forty pound. any advance on two hundred and forty pounds for the diamond ring. are you all finished now, it's going in at two hundred and forty pounds the lot at two hundred and forty pound. and it was number fifty seven, two hundred and forty pounds. and lot number ninety three, a single stone diamond ring. well there you are little single stone diamond ring again. fifty pounds again to start it. fifty i'm bid. fifty five, sixty, sixty five. any advance on sixty five pounds the lot? are you all finished now? it's going in at sixty five pounds the lot. sixty three. cos i got the earphones. oh no that's a point it won't just, i can't well hear what they say. cos sometimes these walkmans have a built-in speaker something like that. yes. but i thin, this one hasn't so i can put it all down . are you following it? did you hear it on the radio this morning about the research that the , these people are doing? no. they were talking about language on radio four and erm what people e , it isn't anything to do with the training course we're on, it's the language. it's nothing to do with t n t or anything er at all, it's just er they that organization has wro written to a number of large companies and asked them to er record er, so many, er tapes so they can analyse it. but really they're looking at the the er sounds you're making and the language you're using rather what, they're not interested in what we're saying. what people? what age? on me. what is it for? and i won't ask you what situation you were in when you found that out. right. let's have a look at what yo , who's gonna represent us on the old er features and benefits this morning? phil. it's gonna be phil. oh right phil. elected. good old phil. okay. what did we have? good of you to volunteer phil? sorry? good of you to volunteer. it was, weren't it? do you want me to, to write it up for you yeah somewhere? yeah? yeah. yeah. can you talk us through well this is them? what i've done, i done about seventeen of them. right. well we done about seventeen of them but mainly on the super mail side but we stick to the one sort of with yeah. erm on the first one it's the before nine service er basically yeah. a benefit for the customer that it is a guarantee before nine. erm it is obviously beneficial particularly for banks and financial institutions to use in what way? well they start work quite early and they can get cheques processed erm situations like that. yeah. so what and then what, what's the benefit then? just, what is the benefit. it's there at the start of a new day. see it's there somehow. that's the benefit? describing the feature is only describing the feature. mhm. before means, nine, means your getting it there before nine you said and er, that means it's there nice and early. that's describing a feature . mm. the benefit of getting it there early and a little leap word which takes you from a feature to a benefit which means well done. which means that so you have to make ah ah . it into sentences by a little leap word actually i've got it on here but i just don't like saying it all the time. i've got a ah ah! i've got it on top of bank though. okay. right. before nine you just wrote that though. eh? you just wrote that. yeah. which means you, that you can start what was your words jenny? so you can start the working day. means that it's ready for the start of the working day giving you a eh? that's the real benefit. alright. there at the start of the working day, giving you, you've gotta say that next step and tell them, okay, if you can say so what, you haven't told them the benefit. okay? so what? let's see how many so whats you can come up with after this. okay. go on. so what's the next one? again, before ten thirty it is a guaranteed service before ten thirty which is a benefit. no. before ten thirty guaranteed is a feature. it is built in by design. we build that in. if you build it in by design, like we build this in and the design of that was so that it will stay on, built in by design. and should stay on. which means that what did we say yesterday? right. and therefore helps with your presentation simply. that's the benefit. right. so, the fact that it's guaranteed that, we've actually built that in by design which makes it a feature. mm mm. what he, what the customer gets out of that is what? so well, on, on the ten, ten thirty one yeah. i've put it very similar to that of the nine o'clock one really. which it , it is. it's still yeah i've i the elements of time really, yeah? that's it. it's just cos i , i couldn't do a lot more about that one. what other things , what other things other than giving them actually cheaper. they're paying less well it's , it's an option and they might as well isn't it? they got an option. sometimes get it before nine. nine. yeah. it gives them, what does, what does options give you? a choice. a choice. it's choice, and i feel i'm, i'm able to choose what does that make me feel? good. in charge. in charge. can i use the word control now then? yeah? you're saying in charge is sort of like, i am in charge which is like this. it is if you make the customer feel they are literally that's right. yeah. in charge of their now service. they like that. i like to know what's happening. yeah. adrian yeah. said look ka kath, gotta get to plymouth tonight, i need to know. cos you, here he needs to know as well, don't you? you sit here today knowing that something's gonna be done. because it couldn't wait until lunchtime and that, that's perfectly understandable because he wants to feel in control of what's going to happen to some degree, rather than just be at the mercy of someone else's position. he wants to be part, you know, influence that decision, and that's important to all of us isn't it? to know where we stand. you know people say, i like to know where we stand. i like to know whe , know where i stand. people love the feeling of being in control. and the before nine guarantees, just give them the time factor again. er, that enables that they choose how much time they need, er because it, do i need to go that time or that time? and that gives them control. and as you say it's one of the best things that they want. because, when you subcontract it out, has anybody changed hairdressers? or changed banks? use a service where they've changed before now? mm. was there an element of risk involved? were you a bit concerned at the time making the decision? worrying about what might happen? and everybo , when you contract out something, when you ask someone else to do something for you. ooh oh! there's just that doubt. obviously, repeat experiences, good ones, gives you peace of mind. but what i'm saying is, it's this that you really want. and becau , that's one of the most valuable benefits you can give a customer time and control. any more? yeah the er, the noon one. mhm. you're fo , guaranteed oh yeah. before noon. oh sorry. the noon, yeah. again, we come into which means that what? well it's, i put down on here that er, it's a benefit for customers that possibly their shops close half day where they can have collections, er sorry deliveries in the morning so that they've got benefit of having deliveries a m right. only. well done. again, we're back to being involved choice, yeah. and choice. well done. yeah. and als , erm and on them three services is what we said a few moments ago, they got the choice of three different options. right. so that the really , you're giving them time and control and it's up to you, it's an alternative choice on the whole thing. i dunno whether a price would be a feature or a benefit. i mean it's gotta be i think a benefit yes. to them. be , yes certainly. but obviously people always receives the choice doesn't it? if, well it's a value judgement they make isn't it? but i don't think selling price saving is a, i don't think putting money up front first is a good idea. no. because if you put it up front first, what do we now discuss everything around? money. money. that's right , yeah. d'ya see what i mean? that dictates. that's right. what i'm saying is, you always assume that that is people's er albeit, which it is obviously isn't it? but you're detracting from the real issue of their needs. that's right. that's right. why, i mean it might not be worth anything, i mean, you know, it's a value, you can't, you can't start influencing them about money to early, because it's the value benefit of that that they're really looking at. so i would keep money well out of it. last thing innit, really? yeah. because when he makes out mu ,bi how much is this worth? is what, is where the money thing is coming in not, how much he saves on the level of service. and then he makes a value judgement. is it worth it? no. you get a taxi sometimes don't you? to places. you don't have to go in your own transport. what's the deciding factor? are there special taxis? mhm. no. is it worth it sometimes? yeah it is. would you use it as an everyday mode of transport? yeah. mm mm. you see what i mean? some people do. some people get taxis everywhere. do their shopping with a taxi . because for some people there may be a value judgement made about it. i don't know. but what i'm saying is, is that everybody makes their own value judgement and be careful that you're not making, imposing your value onto them. th they're free to judge. yeah? next one? saturday saturday delivery. right. erm, again it's an option for them to have if need be. er, but i've put down here that erm but possibly some retail outlets although the saturday is the busiest day of their week they might important merchandise to arrive particularly at, you know, jaeger shops, expensive shops where like the price of the item warrants paying a saturday surcharge. alright. so certain areas can have delivery saturday. what are the things apart from the value of the item ones in erm you're right phil, by the way i'm not saying you're wrong. the urgency of the package. convenience. if a restaurant needed a microwave cos they're open all weekend they couldn't wait till monday. well what about erm working weeks for industry and commerce. a lot of six a lot of factories yeah. do open on a saturday that's right. and they don't actually do collections, they don't actually do, do any production. what do they do? they do all the cleaning. clean up on a saturday. right. i've put that down. mhm. put that right. down. mm mm mm. cos that's what we want. obviously, it's again, it's control so, so a saturday delivery could give you the benefit of erm reduce down time. have you heard that expression? when, if a production line is going and the production breaks down but er if we can reduce our time, has anybody worked in a in a, er, a co , an industrial environment on, what sort of cost saving could you well say er, a production of say two hours would be where you worked, would you know that time? er er on a production line? choo choo choo choo choo choo er, to give some, but none of us have worked in that environment and it's not something we're familiar with. to be honest it's really difficult to put a cost to that. hundreds or thousands. er, thousands. thousands. i mean we're talking big numbers an hour aren't we really? yeah. in the steel industry we'll probably i mean talk in terms of both. tens of thousands per hour? yeah. terry? yeah? so what i'm saying is, is getting a delivery if you can't get something there in time i mean, it may mean that you know in advance that you need something done and you can deliver in a normal working week, but maybe it's inconvenient in a normal working week. maybe, there's nobody really there, maybe it's engineer brought on site. yeah. because you're not, although you're using the power space, the power er er of the production line or equipment, they might not be, that might not be what you're making, you're just using that kit and you need the supplier of that kit to bring an engineer in and you need to get a part of it, but you want control of that rather than just waiting on a supplier to do it for you. yeah? mm. and that reduces our time. we are now talking a few over there. it may be making quite quite often you tend to find in industry where er, if you're dealing with mechanical bits and pieces mhm. if you've got one bit that can't work without another bit, and the bits can be relatively cheap, say may only be about twenty p a bit, but if the twenty p bit doesn't arrive to work with the other bit one of the then it's worth twenty thousand . i suppose it'll be into your . . well said andrew. do you know what this is? mm. well that's a bulb, you need one without the other, so if that doesn't arrive so you're knackered. what do you reckon it's used for that? what do you reckon it's used for? that sort of thing. probably used for machinery yeah. if i looked on one of your er account entries, it would probably say fastening. now to me, what's a fastening to you? zip. a zip. zip. mm, yeah. a button. a button. yeah. but fastening is a complete industry. it's how we've, on the actual er vehicles there is actual metal fastenings that's holding the whole trailer together. rivets. yeah. rivets, or fastenings. right? this'd probably be used for a construction of some sort i would imagine. would you? maybe er bolting tasks. bo , holding machinery through er a base of some sort. yeah. some, i mean it's the sort of item that people probably buy hundreds of to hold items down with or construct something, er er put something together right? how much do you reckon it's worth? not, not a lot. be interesting , ha? about four pound. i don't think it will be but four pound. which bit's worth more than the other two? the bolt is. yeah. do you either. reckon they sell them like that? d'ya think they some people buy cos they need more oops because they need more of these than these at some time? no. or, they maybe replacing some of these but they got plenty of these, or they're replacing some of these but they've got plenty of these? yeah? i reckon that you'd probably buy those cheaper than this item because of the raw materials would you say? yep. i mean plus that's a lot, lot smaller. they probably come in sets, yeah? or people order them together, yeah? if you were ordering hundreds and hundreds of these would you put, express them through a parcel delivery service? no. someone else here. well probably not, no. would you probably , well no. how d'ya reckon people buy these? how are they delivered? at a time. box. box. they probably get them on pallets and stuff like that. tell them to ring back? yeah. and er so, if i was to walk into the place that was selling these hello. what sort of picture have you got of the environment i'm in? she will call you back. industries. it's in a heavy industrial warehouses, they're, they're, they're they're probably pressing these out at quite a rate of knots aren't they? it's er bob student they've asked to interrupt the . oh! oh well i apologise for that then. you'll need a then won't you? shall we go up? apologise for this. hello . you can carry on. where were we? where were we? construction engineering manufacturing. construction engineering. oh, well i think we've got to the point haven't we, where these are probably cheaper than the bolts. and they're hello. they bolt like this in pairs hello? how did you get as, as a pair. then ? but what tends to happen? probably if you'd brought something from m f i. you got one missing. missing. you got one missing. you got, you know. yeah. yeah. yeah. and what usually goes missing? the bolt. nearly always the nuts. mm. so er, what we've got is a situation where somebody's ordered maybe a couple of thousand of these but no nuts. but they want, no, they've got the nuts as well. but inevitably they've been sort of thrown in a corner and people have fiddled around with them like i've fiddled around with this and we find we got what, twenty or thirty of these missing. now, we're talking about a totally different situation. the weight is different the numbers are significantly less and so you might well consider the need to use this means we, can't use them as you were saying earlier adrian, yeah we can't use one part without the other. yeah. it is necessary. so, this now becomes very urgent. and so we might well express these then or even send erm i suppose for the construction industry you're then looking at perhaps when you po produce like the channel tunnel and things yep. like that, where it's labour intensive that you're paying people maybe thirty, forty, fifty pound a hour that's right. and if they're sitting there yeah, that's right, yeah. on their backsides waiting for nuts , you know yep. then it's not just the intrinsic value of the items themselves yep. it's the that's a consequential loss. in fact you could in in yeah in fact that's a fir , that's a very good example you see, because in that situation you might well pay more for the carriage than the value of the item yeah. because of the other things that you're losing, er guys sitting mm mm. on their backsides overtime getting paid whatever it is. and cost , overheads. o , other machinery maybe, maybe you're burning electricity unnecessarily because of er having to keep to stay warm. compressors and things running. allsorts of costs may well be impinging on this. so you find yourself maybe paying well over the price of the value of the item mm mm. just to get it there because it's urgent. think of any other examples? well clothing might have said, important merchandise, clothing yep. in a place i used to eyes. work at least i think at work operation pete is it? what, what was that carly? eyes. yeah. course, yeah. mo organs. most products used in er manufacturing, whether it's in pharmaceuticals, food, industry, er all products that rely on, you know being there on time yeah. to meet, meet that kind of . i mean, even deadlines isn't it? magazine yep. deadlines. well my wife's in the rag trade and this morning she's got er, a fashion show starting, and i'll bet you, i don't know this, but i'll bet you at least two of her manufacturers will have sent her samples to put in that show which probably will arrive at nine o'clock this morning. now how they're gonna send them i don't know, but i can assure you they will send them in a hurry. cos they were probably putting buttons on, or doing the last stitching last night. last night. that's it. mm. now it isn't,th the value it doesn't matter there. what they're doing is they're sending it so that somebody will place orders. and they could find themselves with, you know, somebody asking for a thousand of an item and it's well worth their while therefore, spending a bit of money getting it there. that was adrian's, also, that was adrian's point. exactly adrian. yep. and this is when you've been on the receiving end of it. now, some of us haven't. i've never worked where i've had to get materials together and you know, sort things out. i've worked in advertising. you see it in the crisp industry, they're all yes. they're all well no salted crisps. we were well to be fair, first i times i got that in. ha , how can i say, what,whe when you're talking about fa , i mean fast moving consumer good are fast mm. moving off the shelves and into the shop and, what we would do was erm deli people now do er, stock an order by computer and, and people like sainsburys were doing that in the seventies, you know, and they would actually work over er work on erm data erm, from their computer and order er erm you know, okay, they'd be an event at the weekend or something and they'd, they'd of, increase it or something, but they would technically work out exactly what the throughput of certain items were. and it goes through the till now doesn't it? yeah. well, yes, they have a comput yes they have the computer software. in my, in my day probably someone did it a little bit off that, different maybe. but the, but the proce , the, er the, the whole thing works on the same principal but now they're doing it without, with less effort. now what i'm saying is, is the retail trade or the sharp end of th , you know,i it's, it's very much, it's staying alive. if you over stock, you're dead! you know i mentioned yes. the manufacturing point, from that end, not from the end- user to get the products, to, to the retail yeah. outlets, i meant that ye , you're probably right. but i mean to be fair we used to we, warehouse thousands of tons of potatoes in leicestershire, you see what i mean? we've made yeah. we make er, you know you feel, ah my factory we thinks looking at like a . see looked at, looking, looking, look how we treat our potato, aren't they gorgeous! you know, and tha , we wouldn't go and have a look at a parcel machine system we'd look at lovely potatoes,. and marks and spencers use the same potato. can you just get your girls to wear their hats on each layer and we'll have your potato,the , you know, that's how you used to get the marks, get their marks and spencers account. a , but what i'm sa ,wha the point you were making adrian, is tha , is is that's what you've gotta keep in mind about every time you walk into a business or phone up a business, that it does matter that it's in, your, that's not what we want cos i'm telling you, you know, don't you know, the security guys photographing, you know, lampposts and stuff like that. but if it's a bolt that holds a lamppost down and they've under under-ordered, there's not, but they're with them, then we can take those. the other thing is, is docu , documents are the same. if, there are, there are industry working to deadlines all the time. i in terry was just mentioning his wife's business, in advertising, d'ya, would sell the advertising space in your feature or your magazine or whatever try and get the bleeders to send you that what they wanna put in it! a friend of mine sends things like that and they gotta be and the proofs have to be sent. honestly! you know. oh trying to get companies to decide how they're gonna say, what they're gonna say, coming up with art work ideas and whatever. and it was always to,ye , you know, you ask a commercial artist what sort of lead time, that's another, another er another word that you might come across, because again, you don't want them to speak our jargon but we can speak there's. you know, if i said to terry's wife, mrs , how much lead time do you need to set up your show? what would she say? what does sh , what do i mean by lead time? to set it up , the amount of time it takes her to get it up, be prepared that's right. for it. what about we , and if i, if one of her suppliers i asked them, if i said well okay, if we feature your outfit here, how much lead time you ne , do you need from order to production? what do i now mean? if i place the order today how much lead time do you want? what do i mean? actually the time from er time. when the order placed to the, when it's gonna be on the rack and ready. in i , actually in my shop is what i mean. now it doesn't work that way in the rag trade that. remember i was saying to you about the whole of the rag trade? i know it's gonna cost sending them by the way. mhm. and the rag trade was also upside down ready on the trailer to come across, i won't bore you with the way they do their budgeting for example, but what happens is, my wife will go to one of those suppliers and say yes, a number of my people want to buy that dress so we want a thousand of them. and i want them on, such and such a day. alright. that's no problem. it's not fine. how long does it take you, what's your lead time? so really what's the, what you get it there on time. what, what you're saying is, is the lead, if i ask that question then now they would say,tha when, when do you want it? that's right. it's like, if you go to, i've heard, i've not been, but if you go to hong kong, you can have a suit made overnight. yeah? yeah. that's a tailor-made, handmade suit that is stitched mm mm. overnight. and shirts. and shirts made. in thailand while you wait. cos they will just say, they'll just sit down and make it. measure you up make it cos they want the money. cos, that's what they need. because labour, there's loads of it and it's very cheap. and really, what the rag trade's famous for is labour, very cheap. and that's why they can stretch it. that's right. and that's why they can you've been watching house of elliot. what i'm saying is, that's why they respond in that way, which, in in other industries and comp , businesses, er, we have different er, things to consider don't we? like arranging where they're bought and so on. now t n t do something, when d'ya want it? we'll get it there. we'll get it there. because, i mean, if we can't do it through t n t overnight i , if tomorrow's too late who do we use? and if they say well, we want erm seventy five different locations served with crisps stands by ten o'clock tomorrow because our advert is going out on national t v tomorrow can we do it? yeah. and we then go and recruit, we'll go the, you know, we'll go to the job centres and get them. mm. or, they'll turn round, if the money's, if the money is big enough, they'll turn round to anybody who works for us and say, d'ya wanna join us? come and join us. get your kit on and do a bit, d'ya know what i mean? and they'll just ask people to partake and we'll get it done. if it's, if it's, feasible we'll get it done. and that's the sort of ethos that t n t's got. but we're likely to make more money at it than perhaps the sweat shops do. so what i'm saying is, is lead time in lots of business is highly valuable but if you can cut down the delivery time and give them more lead time you're actually extending yeah. the lead time by tightening up and this is where your time deliveries come in. because, although it's before nine erm, the next morning erm you're actually giving them now more lead time, you've given them another day because an , sometime tomorrow you know, if it gets there at two o'clock and it's off-loading in in in at the bay and someone checks that it's been received and then someone makes a phone call to tell them it's there, and then they're doing something else, and then they come down and have a look at it, how many boxes do you think are sitting on loading bays that don't get looked at for a day or two, or three, or four, five when they've had a next day service? quite a few. quite a few. mm. my other half ordered from a catalogue disc drives to assemble compu , er a home computer and he was looking very carefully cos computer parts can be quite expensive and he was looking at national catalogue for the best prices. he knew exactly what he wanted, or, or the range of things he wanted, and the price that he, he was price conditioned and working out which was the best price, priced package. and oh! look at that place in southampton, can do me a disc drive for two hundred quid or whatever it was, i don't know why but i can't remember the price, but let's keep it at two hundred pound, and he phoned them up and said oh your price is very good on that one. right. yes it is. there's a lot of people ordering that one. okay then, can i have one? yes he said. that will be two hundred pounds plus v a t, plus thirty pounds carriage. he said thirty pounds? that's a hell of a lot to be asking, you know, why is it so much? oh it's express. he said right, oh so i'll have it tomorrow? he says, no it takes thirty days to get here. sorry it wasn't thirty days, ten days to get here. what service does he need carly? i can deliver to you next day, but it takes him ten days to get it here, what service does he need? mm? before nine. before nine. mm. say it again louder. carriage forward. carriage forward. it's called carriage can you forward. co can you explain to those who don't know what it is cos it's yeah. a, it's a stupid name isn't it? carriage forward. sounds like the, talk about the horse before the ca , the cart before the horse. in the first place you've got three companies, a b and c c's your manufacturer d'ya wanna draw, do you want to draw it on here? yeah, wait a minute. you got three companies a, b and c. erm we'll call b the carrier sort of like the go between if you like a, is your say, shop and c is your manufacturer. now you may have a customer that comes into the shop at a and they need something desperately, they walk in the sho , may walk in and say look i need that compact disc player, my life depends on having compact disc player and shopkeeper no see now we haven't got it. but what they can do in this case is the manufacturer's at c, but the manufacturer cannot deliver to the shop until maybe two weeks time they can phone us, the carrier, we will then arrange for someone to go to manufacturer at c, pick it up, bring it to us and then we'll take to the shop. right. all for a charge of course. right. so that gives what, to the shopkeeper? control. control again. now what else we could do, well said customer satisfaction. that's, that's that's well said, but we can also do third party third party. carriage forward oh yeah. that's why, that's so that we can give the shop his control of supply which actually like my da , you're saying if it was a computer disc supplier he could have next day delivery to him and then next day delivery to my man. mm. right? what we can actually do is suggest to the c, the c d or the computer shop your manufacturer can send directly to peter via us, i then say via us. aye, you'll get the bill. mm mm. but we will send the bill to that shop. you can mm mm. send them the bill and we'll send them the goods. they, peter, if he found out where they were coming from what might he do? phone them. to the supplier. he might cut out the middle man you see. cos he might be able to go straight to the ba , the yeah. now obviously, we don't want to lose his business so we protect him but we don't say it's coming from there. we are, we represent him, it's his delivery van yeah. that delivers to peter. and that's third party carriage forward which is even, and peter's even happier because he doesn't even have to wait two days now, he gets his delivery next day. and the bill he, that he gets at the same as the time as the delivery, and what's normal credit conditions? thirty days. thirty days. so when does the thirty days start ticking by? we get our money back much quicker. that's right. you do. so instead of waiting ten days for delivery and then the invoice being,tha , you know being delivered with the goods when you open yes. it up there's the bill the bill can be eleven days in advance of that which means improved well that means everybody's happier. the manufacturer's happier that's right. cos he gets his money quicker. well done. the shopkeeper's happier because he gets aha. his money quicker. we're happier because we get paid quicker and the end-user's happier cos he's aha. got his product quicker. that is it. and if the shopkeeper uses our service all the time he doesn't have to carry any stock. yep. yeah. right. improved cash flow. and if he doesn't have to carry any stock what does that mean with th er in terms of his capital being tied up. it isn't. he can do he could what? open he could do so something else. another shop. another shop. yeah. d'ya see? but d'ya know something? there are businesses out there that don't understand that. they probably don't even know we exist. d'ya know, d'ya know yeah. why? d'ya know why they don't know it exists? people like shops. i don't know why it is, no. because nobody has target them. yeah. that's right. anthony? i've seen a lot of companies like that honestly. just recently. why, why can i tell you another reason why as well peter rang this computer because in southampton and he said we can give you next day this, they won't, they won't enter into it, we can give you next day delivery but it takes ten or twenty days. and i bet you, if you look at how many of your accounts are not using carriage forward when they should you would be amazed. existing on your roller now. and so, why so many don't know about carriage i know. forward yeah. they don't understand. that's it. they don't understand what it means. th ,ca , what do most people use carriage forwards for? just collecting from somewhere else and bringing it back to themselves. bringing it back, sending it back. yeah. invoice them let me, the o the other thing we can do is if it's broken the shop can send it back but the man, the other person pays. yeah. mm. that is also carriage forward. comes back to the person. and a lot of our carriage forwards are are returns. yeah. and then they put in a claim form. or sometimes they've got an account in your name. and that's why we don't make money on carriage forwards cos we don't sell carriage forwards for the positive reasons, we say, well if they don't want them send them back, or if they're damaged send them back. yeah. or if you have to have, i used to do it for erm west bro , er northampton brewery. banson's banson's brewery. erm, it was, was banson brewery. er no it wasn't ba , banson's brewery, erm anson's no sorry, i'm i'm in the wrong trade, it was er gas cylinders. and we used to send back the erm the valves. the valves. they used to er se , we couldn't carry the empty ga , you can imagine that's not express parcel stuff, but the valves er, would sometimes need er replacing and we would send them a valve and, and while, instead of having any down time, we would give them you know deliver the spare, have the spare come back for repair. do you understand? cos there's a lot of this maintenance thing that goes on as mm. as well isn't there with businesses? it isn't just service doesn't end at the sale,so , a lot of things have to have after-care don't they? or mm. a service contract with them and there's lots of business, repeat business. another one we did, er, out of south wales was hip replacement kit gosh! to erm the hospitals and erm they would appar , i might be wro , i'm sure this is the way she explained it to me cos one of the girls in the branches did explain it to me once, and they said they have a choice of joints, like the doctor would say er new brain. your due to, you know, you, you were due for your hip replacement. right. and what they would do is have a look and say ooh that's, ooh that's about your size, that's about it. right. they don't make a joint do they, for you, you, you, you and you? they're all sort of standard sort of size pieces of kit. cos it's an engineering job really isn't it? yeah. you know. yeah. providing you're looking after the blood supply, i mean, you know, the cardiovascular bit, you know, it's a bit of an engineering job. so they,th , you, you have a choice of hips, and they also have a bit of saw, a bit of sawing kit and screw in, you know, have delicate screws. cos it's, it is pins and stuff isn't it, that makes yeah. the hip work? so they have little screws to, you know, to go into the bone and little er delicate instruments which are highly developed instruments and manufactured by certain pattern. and they actually supply them in special sealed containers, you know, little cases that er, so, when you're doing a hip job you have a little kit come from the supplier. and what they do, is they give them a couple of choices of bo , you know, hip joints to go for and the guy decides, the surgeon decides, does his job and then the kit goes back to the manufacturer again and then when the, another hospital orders it they make up a, another kit. obviously there's a lot of sterilizing going on in the meantime and all this. but they don't, these tools are used again, and again, and again you know. the screws they make are, are to be there in the body and the parts are in the bodies, but the bits they don't use come back and then they are put back into stock again. and our service was so good to hospitals,, that they'd be somebody on the table well where's the bit? mm. she's just getting her anaesthetic now. well where's the bits you know? and they're ringing up er julie about it, and say julie well, they're here. what's happened? because the service was so good they'd all, you know, they'd forget about the delivery that would be there. she'd supply them. so it was there? yes. already yeah. there. and then one day it didn't. can't find this bit. they're always going down for anaesthetic, we can't find it. now she's just had a pre-med now. right okay. we can't find it. can you find it for me? okay then. traced it. but of course it took a little bit of time, an hour or so, and th , the woman came round again, they said can't do you today can't find the joint. so, she came back out of er pre-med, had a nice happy half hour on a bit of valium and came back out of it again. went back up to the ward cos there was no bit. do you know where it was? in the erm gate house at the hospital. we had delivered it but they hadn't taken it from the gate house to you know, normal procedure but they, we delivered it normally but they hadn't taken it to the exact part of the hospital it was going to. so, julie sent the patient a bunch of flowers and sh , and said sorry for the de , for the delay, you know it's there tomorrow, and she had this, she had it done again. but really, what, all they wanted to do was save face from the hospital because it wasn't our fault but she used a bit of you know, we won't embarrass the hospital we'll say and then our customer's happy. bit of customer care, but really and, well we all, we'll lose face with the patient mm mm. because we int gonna, we haven't gotta worry about what she says about, but he sa , the hospital didn't wanna lose face, but i mean, the hospital said thank you . cos they were saying will they tell her, you know the part hasn't come and, so we said okay, let's pretend the part didn't get there. send her a bunch of flowers. but really it had got there but again but what i'm saying is, that service of carriage forward we were making almost as much money on the kit coming back cos we could have charged another it's five quid isn't it? yeah. it's five pound at the moment is it? it has been up to nine or ten pound for mm. return. because it ca , most, we do lose a lot of money on carriage forwards. if i talk to, if you talk to our operations they will say, oh my god! do you know why? because, we don't know what we're carrying. a lot of carriage forwards are returns and damages. mm. and they're in a terrible state when we pick them up. because, you can imagine working for us, you received something and thought that's no good and can't use it, what happens to it then in your warehouse or despa just sta , lays there. and what happens to it while it's ? kicked around. kicked around. kicked about. right. broken. broken and all that. and, what did you say that we get a lot of claims on carriage forward? damaged foodstuff. you have to insure them don't you, carriage forward of course? yeah. that's why we have to so no you don't. yeah. tha that means we're paying out but you see the problem is if we do actually find out. yeah, you see the trouble is though we're so open to abuse. because yeah. people, they don't rush back, they don't wanna urgently express back a carriage forward, they don't work. what they want is, they get on the phone and say that's no good, send me another one. and we send them the replacement, and they let the broken one sit there. how many times have you supposed to have taken something back or have it repaired or something and it's sat there, and it's sat there, and it's sat there, and it's sat there and it's collected du , i've got things round the house that i've been working on and that i've gotta, i've gotta and it's collected dust. you know, that's another project that went sort of slowly the way. erm, and what i'm saying is, we don't address the things that aren't urgent yeah. we only address the urgent things. but we do leave yeah. ourselves, well we've gotta protect ourselves as carriers against other people saying ah! we broke that, or that was broke er, but we'll blame the carrier now and look at it, then our security guy goes out and they know it's been sitting around someone's you know, it's been there for months! and er, we we, we are open to abuse on them. but that doesn't mean to say that what danny said was very valuable, and as you said adrian, the four, the four parties, the receiver, the thirty party receiver, the people who are paying the bills buyer and us are very happy in many cases with using carriage forward in a positive way not just for returns mm mm. yeah? the returns do get a bit dodgy i find. but we still do it cos we insure it, we, charge an extra fiver every time then it's good money. i'm stopping you through your list phil. well i mean, i've got a any more? quite a few on here. is there any ones that you want me to pin point at all or erm le , what i wanna do is just get, just insure that we know the difference between what is giving the customer the, the benefit and the features. so we probably won't go through them all. but no. let's just discuss our way round a couple of other things because these are, this is your product knowledge now isn't it? yeah. this is what you need to know about selling the service. it's no good, er talking about how you do something, how you do is not what they're interested in. so whats, that's how you do it. how do you do it? the customer. it's, it's what can please me. cuddly toy . what's in it for me? the with them factor. what it is in it for me? okay. i've got liability options. what d'ya mean by that, liability options? well like being insu , like people have got a choice of different options of insurances and that's a good one. now if i said, ooh! we offer good liability options. we can give you transport liability at, what level's that? aha. five thousand pounds, ten thousand pounds, and fifteen thousand pounds costing three, three, six, and nine pound respectively. five, ten, and fifteen. which is forward transit . don't be like that. what is the free? fifteen pounds a kilo. sorry, five, sorry i got that one. three, six and nine. six and nine. and nine. and the free one is? fifteen pound a kilo. right. okay. now what i'm saying is we, because we have good liability what can that imply? you're getting a how can you sell it's properties then? in the likely event in the likely event in the likely event likely event so well we won't us, it won't graduate any but does it have to do got this you're committed liability? you're committed, you're committing to your service it's like life assurance. on the fact that you can offer you your high rate of liability. cos by offering a high rate of liability it's, it's suggests that we concerned. that we care. and say we co , we, we're committed. rather than see non-damaged if you like. we're limited i won't ta , i don't like using the word problems without . the reason why what about the we can afford to offer such good liability cover is the risk is very minimal. is small, yeah. the cost is very minimal. yeah. mm. that's what you're saying isn't it adrian? yeah. good. we can get excellent try to find the words but you had a good, good case there. we can get excellent rates from insurance companies that's right. because we are so good. now we , actually yeah. we are our own i know about this. inge , we're our own which means that we are, our problems are so limited that we actually carry the liability ourselves, we don't even have to use an external company to get the rates on. we are so , so what i'm saying is, we can afford to offer marvellous cover because it's, because erm, the risk is minimal. dixons starsfield got er, the same as ours really, got . who does? who does? dixon starsfield, dixons, currys. right. where they, they offer extended five year warranties. now the chance of you actually needing a yeah. five year warranty on a t v is . that's right. they generally don't go well. my friend li , my friend offers a lifetime guarantee on his leather furniture. lifetime. but the way it's a it's not . it's a ex , it's an extra selling point that's what it's like when when exactly. you sell me a when you go to buy it you think oh i've got a life i can change it. you take out, i think most people take out life insurance don't you? you don't expect to die but you just cover every that's right. eventuality. that's right. that's the pitfall. but what yeah. what what the insurance salesman do is do wobble you a little bit so that you will take it out, you know, can you afford down, if you were forty having a heart attack leaving a wife and young child behind. i mean, they do tell you, they sell on that way don't they? yeah. yeah well they do to sell, sell them. they sell you som something to do with it. you say that, that is negative. cautionary tales. yeah. you know when somebody's at, when someone's at a lowest point, that's when they go straight in anything for a sale. yeah. and you get them to make a will afterwards. it's co you see salesmanship is applying psychology, you know, and a lot of people, i mean,wha the reason why insurance companies are justified is a lot of people are protected by it, you know. you don't always know what's good for you, you do need someone to say. mm. and you're twenty one can you explain it to me again kath mhm. about the options there please? right. what is it that you are, you don't understand? well i understand that you get fifteen, it's just that i've got a lot of customer where i got business that is depending on the kind of insurance that we give them, based on what our yes i understand. competitors are offering. erm, the fifty p, p a kilo up to fifteen thousand, that i yeah. that's pro-rata. yeah. that i understand. fifteen pound per kilo. oh sorry i co , sorry, fifteen pound yeah. per kilo up to pro-rata. up to a thousand kilos. which is, yeah, that i that's that i understand. so, if it only weighs kilos you will get how much cover? thirty quid. er thirty, thirty quid. yeah. you understand that, right? yeah. now but when you got to the options, now the full liability, yeah? what are you saying now fi , up to five thousand pounds? per item, per per assignment. right. regardless of weight. what's that, what right you're buying a aren't you? you pay three pound extra oh extra? yeah. on top of your own on top of oh that's right. on top of the fifteen pound per no. kilo? no. on top of whatever no, no. price the customer's paying. customer's rate. how do you achieve a rate sorry can, can anyone say if you can well i just say he doesn't pay fifteen pounds a kilo adrian, he pays nothing. he pays the rate you ask him to pay yeah. and, inbuilt in that rate mr , is fifteen oh i see. pounds coverage for every kilo of weight. that's right. so if you have a thousand kilo pallet it's fifteen thousand pounds. but if your item weighs a half a kilo, we'll round it up to the first kilo so that's any valid for fifteen pounds. right. now obviously that's worth a lot more than fifteen pounds to you isn't it? right. so what i suggest you do is pay an additional three pounds which means that that is now covered for up to five thousand pounds regardless of it's weight. right. now i understand. are you happy with that adrian? yeah. now, the reason yes, yes. why you give them different options right. thank you. on, on, on the same day they only charge nine pound and i , everything's valid up, insured up to fifteen thousand pounds per consignment. are you happy,yo you happy with that then? in actual fact, sorry to point it, that's consignment contracts . right. but yo , so i i haven't, you know, it, because when you read it it doesn't always make, it goes in there, and i understand right. people getting a little bit confused about that. but, that just means the levels of insurance, as a risk, ah, you know, and we've just put a rate in to, to represent the, the levels of insurance because we charge you more if we insure you for more then. erm so if i've got a customer that's sending erm quite a lot of parcels but have got a now parcels, have , what is the, what is the, what is the erm definition of a consignment? cos this is regarding consignment. when is a ah ah sorry , it's so , what i'm saying is it's solely for, it's erm i ,yo you could have six or seven parcels all picked up in one consignment if it's picked up by that carrier by one carrier. going to one address at one time. so that's one consignment. now if say, let's so it's one consignment. keep it so to a dozen. okay, so you got one consignment you've got a dozen items i want a dozen items yeah. which is made up of one consignment. one consignment. you're only covered per consignment, so the whole twelve together are only insured for fifteen ah ah, ah! thousand. aha. what he must do is make sure that each individual box becomes a consignment. ah ah. he's got to label up and pay for at a consignment rate each item. he cos can't i understand. can he put that on his er, consignment or note? can he actually put a, a tick o on a box, you know when you fill in a consignment note? yes. d'ya know when yo , d'ya know when you put one on each parcel you write a co sep separate consignment number yeah. for every consignment. if if the customer feels that every item he's sending out is valuable. is er is valuable, can he do, i dunno. a dozen individual consignment notes and then tick the particular box yeah. that he wants? that would work out yeah. then that one. because he's gonna pay yeah. he'll be paying if that's what he wants. yeah, that's it. if he needs five thousand pound coverage on each item on each one. he's gonna, he's gonna have to pay for it. he's got to send five, if you've got a twelve well twelve percent. now, can i put it another way adrian? i'm just trying to get an edge on my competitors right. cos, i let me put it another way then. this is only what we publish. if you know the value of the level of insurance your client wants right. and if he wants to send them as one consignment, but now the value is twenty five thousand pounds collectively you can ring up stubbings and as , or get your f and a to do this for you, finance and admin, ring up stubbings and can you give me a special rate for these goods and ar , can you give me what i can charge them for special coverage to take it higher than our normal coverage of fifteen thousand pound? oh i see. now what they will wanna know is the ins and outs of everything that you're sending. how delicate it is, as most insuring company,mos most brokers or people like that. how value it is, and most insurance, yeah, that's right through a brokers. would you have to send in a profile? do you have to send it in? yeah. i've never done it but i think you do have to send that in. and can i please recommend you speak to your finance and admin people and they will say, now don't expect to be saying, oh that'll be no problem, because we na , we ain't got a f and a like that, they're always to caution, you know. they're all yeah. don't think you can do that son ! you know you'll get this thing, don't worry, say okay cor! now ,do we? we don't know. been looking everywhere. i dunno. anywhere er who would call ? my husband er erm, you, you couldn't, could put a call through. can't. er, well you could leave a message then? no. well done jenny. very good. and just all the right format yeah. of questions there. how did it feel about ringing and asking questions that were ? did it throw you a bit did it? yeah. i mean really you're saying i could i can't think of anywhere to go,my god! i mean , she's saying well what do you exactly mean by this question? i mean, i wasn't the world you know. now erm did she hesitate for some time before the answers? yeah. mm mm. and what did jenny do when she hesitated? lis listened. she did, but she did something else as well. she went ha! she went off . she went mm. everything. and you say ooh, come on, come on. come on have i said the wrong th did you feel a bit uncomfortable when she hesitated a bit then? mm mm. you we , and it feels like that when you're on the phone. now all she was doing now you can see that you can read those messages about the hands went didn't they? the shoulders went, the face went long. mm. ooh! er, oh! you could see her thinking about it, but you couldn't have heard that on the phone. yeah, you do get silences like that sometimes don't you? and you get silences on the phone and you're thinking this is going down like a lead balloon. no! she's engaging brain it takes her some time to come out to the phone instruct the whole thing. yeah? don't worry about it,ta , the pregnant pause is to use. on a moment's thought for them to sort of. did you feel the pressure of having to ask the questions till then, when, when they were asking you to do it to to plans? very much so. yes. and you will feel like that and you sit there oh god! i've gotta do that . yeah. preparation, good preparation will help that. relax, jenny, relaxation will help that as well. just mm mm. breathing calmly and waiting. and, when she said anywhere was that enough information really? do you really wanted to know where jenny had, where mandy had been on holiday? no. would,wo , would you liked to have known more? i would have. mm. mm. yeah? yeah. how could you prompt her to expand on that? er could you give me a few examples? well done paul! that's, oh yeah, how did i , repeat the question,an an and emphasize on the word. mm. could you give me an example? now if you say it in an ex , in a, in a do you want to give me a few examples? you're a bit yeah. all she'll say, no i no. can't. if you say ah! neil says you've been everywhere, what are the type of things, that you know, you can use tone and voice cos they can't see you. it's all in the voice what you put into voice. bill had the opportunity to sit face to face with them and you catch his eye, you you used to er time to er use, use hand gestures and show things to them on, on presenters. you haven't on the phone. can you give me a few examples? could you expand on that a little? we what was your question phil? yours was a good one. aha. where have you been? yeah. th the, the fall on the, the repeatedness , the broken record that sort, when you repeatedly question. ah! where have you been? oh i've been to, or you rephrase it in another way. well done. very good. and don't lose, just because she said i wanted to know, they didn't answer me. stick with it. even if it means a few phone calls. what exactly do you mean by that? sorry, i've never worked in your industry, why is that? yeah? and follow it up with a new question. so the experiences, although it's got nothing to do with your product, is what is gonna actually happen to you on the telephone out there. yeah? mandy, would you like ask jenny a question? yeah. erm how long have you been driving? two and a half years. so when did you learn to drive then? when i was seventeen. and what were your ideal car? er a rover . so i give you the choice of a, a lamborghini or a rover what would you rather have? a rover i think then. ah. so if i let you drive my rover home, would you? definitely. yeah . and if i let you drive my rover home, would you? she said yes to the actual question. that was more than a closed question, it was closed oh right. would you? you said would you drive my rover that's the question? when you said we'll talk about that question last. and the others will have to wait till they come up again. ah ah! right. well done. see that, excellent. right. how did it feel jenny asking a load of questions? straight out weren't they? yeah, when she was saying asking them and the, that's right. now, the other thing is phil because he's got a new experience with it, struggled to find a question. right, he knew what she was talking about, she'd got it written down and she was gonna get that information. but sometimes it can sound too i know this didn't happen yeah, comes a bit too it's just i mean i'm not suggesting you, you behave like that on the phone but what i'm saying is, awareness now, i'm just slagging off the awareness. when it sounds rehearsed, it sounds, like, that. and it doesn't sound quite as clear as if you have to think about who you're talking to. so the fact that you struggled phil mm mm. to find the next question, the customer knows you're thinking. ah that's interesting. try and get that now buy yourself a bit of time mm. think about that. let me , let me think about that. do you mind if i come back to you on that one? and if you can't stand the heat get out quick and come back to it. but it, eventually it will sta , you'll think afterwards, oh god! i didn't know the next thing. analyse what you did sure. then think about it, and there's always another call. yeah? no problem at all. okay. now, that was very well done . no problem at all there. paul, would you like to ask carly a question? i didn't understand it. i've done three questions of each. oh god paul ! do you understand it now? no i, no i understand what you're saying, it's just that i thought you said three questions of each. i done three open, three limited, and three yes and no questions. would you, would you wanna erm, d'ya wanna no i've crossed them all out now. okay. go on. well away you go then? sorry, well i've the blurb. got that one. my, must be my mistake. well i thought you would have got it in black and white. i got a big no go on. in the mornings. go on paul. carry on. carry on. hello carly! hello paul. how long were you seeing your boyfriend then before you married him? er, about six years. about six years. whose idea was it to get married? both of us really. yeah? right. how old were you er when you got married? twenty one. do you live at home with your par , er your parent's home or erm do you live in, in your home? well currently with my parents because we moved down. are your parents ha or moved up i should say, sorry. erm are your parents happy with your choice of husband? initially no. well , i was afraid of the answer then. well done. that was a very good question paul. yes obviously. excellent keep you on . excellent questioning paul there. well i did have some more but i thought no i ah, thank god for that! . how did you feel about answering those questions? fine. no problem? no. again, speed but i think erm sorry go on. sorry. no. answering back i thought he could have given me a bit more time cos i wanted to say something else and he was ah ah! that's interesting. yes. you could have got more information paul! but i didn't. ah i know. but i didn't but just want any more. i thought it was, it was, it was,en en en no can i just, can i say encroaching on her private business. the er yes i know. i know. i don't care. it's only an exercise and, and you yeah. and you have e , your own agendas there, obviously. what i'm saying is is sometimes slowing the pace and simply yeah. let her think a little longer because and then she'll say, oh! and then she's just think of that. with phil's hesitance we got a bit more. and phil was thinking i wonder whether this is about and i'm trying to think of the next question . no. which is the question of what you feel when you're in the field out there trying to work something through. which calls actually you've hit the nail on the head there didn't you? mm? when you said phil thought he wasn't, i'm not listening. no. because that's what it's all about. yes. and when you're listening you're watching for body language as well. mm. and so if you have not been concentrating on the question yeah. you will probably have recognized the body that says i'm prepared to give you more. now, to be fair that comes with experience. of course. listening, as you become more comfortable and you become, you've done it a few times you know what you're gonna have to say and then you, you er, you listen more carefully to the answers. but the listening is the key. paul had it well prepared and really she sa , but sh all his answers met with a logical sequence didn't it? mm mm. very well done and he spent a lot of time working on that did you notice? i'm not saying that's, okay, you got a bit misled by the instructions but don't worry, but he still gave you could see that you know he was, you know, he was just yeah. you know, he was caught in a he was concentrating . train of thought. he was erm , he was trying thanks. very hard and e , good, good preparation does take effort. i mean i know we're only playing here, but it does take effort and, practised effort becomes easier it doesn't become hard work. it's like playing a good game of squash, squash, to get a better game and it's not so hard because you're off to, you, you're fit for the game. and that's what you'll do, you'll become fit. you'll be a better player. as you say, when you're on the phone you get those silences you just of go, mm mm, mm well done jenny! and like, well erm, what's ha , what would you call those? right. okay. they know you're listening. listening noises. that's very good. that's very good. right. all can i do, just make one announcement? yes. please do. just to illustrate how important this thing is, you've probably all come across and it really irritates me, you see people interviewing people on television and they've got their clipboard there and they've obviously got a prepared question so they can't falter and fine, that means they've prepared it. and they ask a question and somebody's very open with the answer and they da , they just,sa expand on that answer and then, two or aha. three questions later they ask them the very question they just answered e e expect and that really irritates me! and that's purely and simply because they're just not listening. oh. the easiest thing in the world to take off that question yeah. so that it's so think about that because yeah. and you'll lo you don't want to get the backs up of your customers by asking them questions . that is right. and you'll losing the point of why absolutely. you're asking the question. see aha. you're not, you're not paid to ask questions, you're paid to get in , information. info. yeah? that's the point. so that fact that you can't think of a next question phil mhm. don't worry, you've got some information. we can all ask questions later okay? what you really want then is a way to sort of happenings or embarrassments because you're a bit stuck of where you want to go. mm mm. that's interesting. let me write that down. ah! you're giving yourself some new , you know. i think one of the things phil can do in that si don't worry about it. or anybody could do in that situation is having asked a question, they're a bit hesitant about er, the next question then simply throw in there to buy yourself some time something like ee, is that all? or, is any more that you can add to that? just to give yourself a bit of time mm. or repeat the question. for the next question. it will help yeah. you. like we've just suggested. oh have you? or, what was your way of doing it before you said? when, when you wanted to know where mandy went? can you give us, tell us about that paul? well i kept asking her, it made hard work, yeah. yeah. what did you do to her? you've not been listening have you paul? you know whe when, when we asked he's still well i thought she didn't know that. no he's still sitting back on his reflected glory now. and rightly so as well. well done. carly would you like to demonstrate yours kath. now? er could i say, say something? yeah. i just think i just think it's quite important for us all to realize i did a, when i used to do a similar job to this it took me a long time before i realized that the customer, you know on the phone doesn't know that your you shouldn't have asked an open question there oh. on the close and it comes, it just comes with practise, get all right. from practise doesn't it? which is exactly it. what i'm saying is is, you can, it doesn't matter how you ask the question, but sometimes what i'm trying to help you practise, cos we're not, we're very good at asking closed questions in conversations but don't very often recognize, but you know, we, we we we, we'll zip backwards and forwards, and that's okay, but i want you to do consciously is know what type of questions you're asking because you can sometimes be hitting a brick wall and thinking i'm getting anywhere here and it's because you're asking too many closed questions. mm mm. and you're making it sound like an interrogation. erm, especially when you're in front of a screen er or you're in front of a, a form that you're, someone's saying get the traffic profile out and th what they send, what they, how many they send, it can sound like an interrogational. get the buyer, get the product, get the carrier, get, and so on like that. you've got to be careful that you are not losing the skill of a conversation. mm. open question what th va , advantage of open question is, is you do a less of it and they more of it. more of it. and that's why it, on a foundation course we keep the questioning very simple. justin's experiences has tooken it, taken it further than that which is brilliant, and he can apply those skills straight away. and if you've got those skills apply to them job, i'm not suggesting you don't, but remember the first part of a, a tele , er a telephone or a face to face sales negotiation is,th th two of these and one of these. right? you should you be posing the questions and letting the discussion take place. posing the questions, controlling it but posing it and letting it go. right? and you're gaining information. when you've gathered information a , and and come to a conclusion erm interesting, we may have something for you there. and that's when you get your presenter out and start matching to what the customer wants. now you've gone through an alternative yesterday and we know, we ta , we don't talk what is built in by design, what do we talk about? we tell them what's built in by design and then we tell them the advantages. of what they get out of it. . and we keep it simple. one feature maybe one or two benefits and you don't have to tell them the whole story. mm mm. as you said bill, pull out the benefits and features that are appropriate to what you've heard. er, there may be something you're interested in there? now there are tighter ways of actual sales negotiations but we haven't got the time to go into it today. you'll have to come back on your selli , your course to do this. okay? or you ca , if you can do it on your own, brilliant! run with it now. but what i want you to do is gather information, this is your answers, and match what you're doing er, what we sa provide with what you found out then. okay. and you'll find out what method by just simply questioning them about the . let me just check before we start that everybody's got this. i'm sure danny, jenny, and carly have, but just because we've gone half way, can i just let the other three finish off their presentation? cos they've sat and done the preparation. carly. okay. hello paul! erm, i know you're allergic to food and drink, so you keep on telling me, what sort of food are you allergic to? just about everything under the sun. what sort dairy products erm dairy products , oranges various fruits. remember the listening noises. right. mm. yes? er, can't think of anything else specific at the moment. but it's just about, i've got a list at home, it's about this long though. right. okay. erm do you actually what type of question is that when you do actually? him. what type of question a minute. yeah. and then, give him a choice like, can you a choice . what were you going to ask carly? do you actually i was gonna ask him, do you actually eat the products still to a limit? right. okay. it's a closed question there. right, that's right. how can you change ask,ge get to that, but say it as an open question. if there are limits no. that's a closed question. what do they begin with? sorry, they're the words which you were . which foo , which food do you eat? yeah. they're the words true. there is nothing to give me there was no last night. these are open questions. you said, do you actually eat the products that made you allergic paul? right? what you're saying how can ask any of those, any of those sort of questions? this is a very useful one. just by . how can you ask but using that word at the beginning of it? i am allergic to almost an anything. and you wanted to know do you eat almost anything don't you? yeah. do you still suffer? so, what, what word do you make it into an open question? can you have them? how just how how much of this food do you eat? how much of these yeah. do you? mm. which food. does anybody have any other suggestions. mandy, you were saying which foods do you eat? which food. i was gonna say which food do you which foods, yeah. normally but that's still sort of limiting a bit though isn't it? yeah. what i want, what food? types. what, what is it? what's, er er, erm, what off this list do you feel ? it'll come to yeah. you. alright. we're gonna ask another question then though aren't we? right. right well, can you ask your third open question? okay. third open question. what was it? i can't what food what food off this list, what do you actually eat? no, she's already asked him what they what do you actually eat? yeah. please yeah? erm what food? that would be useful, yeah. yeah. what foods do i eat? erm, i get everything, i'm allergic to at the moment. no, i'm allergic to everything and i still eat it all. yeah. going by last night apparently, ordinary roast. yeah. okay. let's get back to the point, the point of the questioning. carry on carly. go on then. erm wha are you scared erm no. are you scared, what type of question? an open. let her work it through for herself. oh yeah. i know, i know that your trying to help her. but i'm trying to make her brain work not one of yours. no, i have got a . i want to borrow , i want to borrow we can borrow your brain tomorrow mandy. we'll probably need you again erm tomorrow. what i'm saying is, are you, what er yeah. what does it, what are you trying ask him carly? i dunno . what was your second, answer to your second question? sorry. i eat lots i eat , i eat everything that i'm allergic to, virtually. i'm allergic to everything but i still eat it all. that's the information you've got so far. right. is there a special method of cooking your food at home, not obviously outside? now nobody help her at this stage. is there a special method? wha what, how are you gonna answer that paul? no. now, what sort of question is it you've asked then? closed. right. is there a special method? which of these can you ask to get your open answer? what special shush! i'm asking oh ! carly. how do you cook your food? well done! what, or how how do you cook your food? thank you. thank you. well done carly! yeah. how do you cook your food paul? how d'ya cook your food? i don't, i get my mum to do it. right. don't worry about that. now you've got to okay. go into yeah. a limiting one? if your mum doesn't do the cooking at home, who does it? i go out and buy chips. you do. and er no sorry , go on, i'll, i'll be helpful on that. i do. you do? that's no help paul. carry on. oh okay. next question . do you like your cooking? no. well , well done! well done! well that was a hard effort! very well done! thank you, thank you, thank you! well done! jean, would you like to have a go? i want to know what happens to him. er i know! that's what i was i'll save the best till last. hiya danny. hiya. hiya. erm, where do you wo usually buy your clothes from now? i beg your pardon? where do you usually buy your clothes from? oxfam. er i've just recently changed to next but i used to buy them from oxfam when i used to live here. oxfam? good shop that is.. put it down now. right yo you go, got to next? well why do you usually shop there, in next? erm because it's got the next label on it and i like that outfit. what do you think of the staff in next? i think they're a load of pompous gits! i'm . and do you consider price or quality more important when you buy your clothes? quality. quality. good question. and erm, do you spend a lot of money, money on clothes? not if i can help it. no. excellent! wasn't that good. yeah. good. it was good. right. you can keep your pen on the table. he's gonna stab . i have this, it's, it's it's it's it's like being stuck on a telephone line. it's a really annoying habit i've got i know. i know but i just can't help fidgeting my bottom. i know it's annoying, no. i know it's annoying. but i have anno it is annoying though. with a pen. do we all agree, we say annoying? yep. yeah. okay. quiet, please, for daniel. it's incomplete. think of a word. thank you jean, i'll forgive ya. erm what type of music do you like? i like most types of music but erm at the moment i'm, i'm into u b forty, i quite like them. you say, now erm why do you listen to this particular music? i think my daughter really weaned me onto it. i didn't have much choice, i wasn't listening to it anyway so then i got quite to like it then. yes, you . erm where do you listen to this music? er, it's just at home usually. so, do you listen to this every day or is it like oh no, just occasionally just sort of like occasionally when you've got a bit of spare time? it's usually at weekends you know ooh! excuse me . i listen to them. yeah. will you have this music played at your funeral? ! oh god ! mm? no i don't think so. erm , i need that one there. you sound like a copper. that one there. a what? he sounds like a copper doesn't he? a copper. aye. jean, you know what the answer is don't you? i don't know. i don't care, i'm not there . yeah. well done. well done. lots of informa , i know it's not re , i know we haven't talked about selling t n t, and i'll, your questions aren't really about this time, i'll do that in a minute. what questions can we ask about t n t, to t n t potential customers? we asked about music, we asked about food, we asked about holidays, we asked family, we asked about, what was ja , mandy's questions to you jane? what was your driving. question? driving. driving. we asked about, what was your question to music. music. er, er clothes to danny. what questions do you want to know from customers about, what d'ya wanna know about them? their business. about their business. what about their business justin? what is the question that you want answered? do they send goods out? do they want a carrier? do you use a carrier? right. how regular? can we assume that something moves out of most buildings? yep. yeah. yeah, we can. what sort of things move out of any business premises. papers letters. or letters. documents. that's right. something's likely to move. so yo , rather , do they send goods out? can we assume that one anyway ju , maybe not goods well i su but there's, something moves that needs a delivery mm mm. somewhere. would you, would,wo , i mean, just the way, what made you feel that it wouldn't be the case? but would you mean well er , well i've, and added two hundred mailers mhm. in like two days and yeah. that's the fir , and you ring up hairdressers and mm. vets and all sorts mm. so you had to ask them. mm. a couple some people just have, some people will will never have a need for a carrying service. yeah. no, there is some are you, sort of okay, you were talking about, you you're talking about your target customers were sort of like abattoirs and hairdressers and stuff like that? yeah but you know the mailers that we did, i mean right. that that they were just registered businesses. we were told to ask right. you know okay. do you ever have a need for a carrier yeah. at all? you know before you start giving them all the spiel what type of question is that though? do you ever have a need closed. for a carrier? it's closed. yeah. cold. it's, still a you have to open. how can you ask to that? yeah, you could say that. well there's, they need to know a little bit about you. so you said, you know, good morning, my name's kath . i'm a, the business repre , i'm, i represent th er, t n t super mail, i er, am responsible for business development here you've recently received er erm, a some information from our company, am i right? yes. yes. or i know you've recently received some information, that's good. i can see that you are a hairdresser now what question do you wanna ask? would you ever need how often do you have a use for a parcel carrier? how often would you ever send, or something into your company, or have something sent out especially, by perhaps a customer request? so you need to know how often, right? assume something goes. i guarantee something'll go. it might be once in yeah. bloody blue moon and you may not be worth putting on your and calling every six weeks mandy, but, it might be worth asking it in a more open way. because sod's law'll say if you ask it open, you'll find summat out you never assumed. mm. yo you know. you never thought. well actually, yes we're the head office for a regional group here and as well as have a, er an actual service for hairdressing we also have a distribution er control shop at the back. and, we have our own delivery service to our cu , to our own network. now what's the question you can ask this hairdresser that got his own bus , i know i'm using a, a an extreme mm mm. point, they've got their own delivery service. what else would you like to ask? is there any place you can ever not go to? what areas does it, do they tend to serve? what happens if give me an scenario, a cautionary tale like the insurance man does to his customers. you sell god forbid god forbid? god forbid that you should ever lose parcel and mrs on newcastle hasn't got a wig base any more your reputation's going to be in tatters, isn't it? what do you do in that situation? what are you gonna do? do you know the one thing in that god forbid! he said, and i wrote it down here, which i think is wonderful, probe th the past problems and future worries. what would happen if yeah. in the future? what has happened, when mm. is past. yeah? that's a very good question. that's how they do, sell insurance cos e everybody knows who they've use, had a mishap and not insured. because if you say, have you, what type of question's this? have you ever had any problems? it's a closed one. na , no. and what they gonna say? no. how difficult was it mandy to think when jenny was asking you about your holiday? it was quite difficult. why? mm mm. and you , you gave mono , what's the word? syllabic. syllabic. syllabic. syllabic. can't get my teeth right. monos , one word answers didn't she? long words like. what i'm saying is, is if customers feel like that and if you ask, if, they must say yes, no, because it, to engage, hang on th the phone rings, ring, ring, ring,ya , yes? yeah? erm, yes right er, yes . you know, and they're in this sort of mm. mo , very yeah. fra ,ma frame of mind, you got to demand and wait for the answer, even though it might take a minute for the to say erm, erm, oh we use erm, you know, we've got a, a, a local van that comes and se , like, you know . what happens if well, oh sa , pwurgh, i don't know, i mean she has to wait for a week . you know? you know. or we rush one over to her specially, make a special journey. right, now where d'ya, what do you wanna go, what question do you wanna ask her next? someone other than justin now. how do you achieve that? how do you achieve that. good question. what sort of question is that bill, open or closed? open. open. wo! that is open question. how do you achieve that? now sometimes what salesmen do is suggest the answer, do you do this? do you do that? do you do that? do you do that? shut up! don't keep on. how do you do that? quite difficult eh, er well usually somebody goes in their car, you know. she'll send her, or i'll le i'll let someone go, someone from the shop go. now what do you wanna ask? you think of the problems. could this possibly leave you short handed? no that's a closed question. closed. . right, a good question. a very good question. could it leave you short handed? change it to an open question. how do you manage when this person's out delivering the goods? hang on justin. same question paul yeah. but what it means is, what's the difference? well, you've gotta . that's right. or, you shut up and i start talking, you'll find out more. how do you manage? really? god forbid! how do you manage? touch wood. oh! you don't say? honestly? you've got that, you blow the problem up a bit. hang on in there now, you've found it! mm. that's where you wanna be. i don't care whether you can't work a rate out i don't care whether you know nothing about t n t, you've found a need. do you want some help? you got to the close, do you want some help? and they say well yes. what are you offering? you say, i'll tell ya. i've got my, my oh yes. . ah! yeah? that's when you, you get your question. you're in there. yeah. your oh justin! now you've gotta use those features and benefits to explain. so you've gotta be thinking and know which features to pull out. you don't have to say we are a multi-national company with a hundred, in among hundred and ninety countries, we have a sales, a fleet of three thousand in this country, you don't have to give them a list. d'ya remember going through this and what did the fella say on the phone, can you remember? you're too big for us. too big for me. too big for me. you're too big for us. or yeah. this is a, this a smaller regional office, you'll know that we have a local depot here in lan , in stockport. wherever you are, if it's a local set-up. yeah? and you relate the features in the right way to that appropriate package, that problem. yeah? and in closing you simply say do you want to use us? shall we go ahead with it? what other ways can you have to close a question, when you want, wanna get a green light? you've presented your offers out can we get some ? get some help. shall we start, shall we start coming up? erm, shall we start, you might not even have to get the , shall we start it, the ball rolling then? mm. what other ways can you ask them if they wanna get the would you like me to arrange an appointment? would you like me to, yes, maybe ha , if you ask a question and haven't established what? you've gotta establish something else. just wanna to try, get them to try, try it. yeah. would you like to u , can you see yourself that service? what d'ya wanna know now? where? quickly. you can't wait, see how the a , it begs the other question? when would like to start? would you like to start now or good. mm. i'm gonna have to let carly have your go now? cos you've got to get two, you need to, you need to really close there don't you? i'm gonna stop it there folks. have i given you something to be going on with? you have, yes, thank you. thank you. very interesting that. i'll be keeping this for the next few days with me looking after it. no he, he said didn't want it. can we take yeah. you better take, we're spending,we'll be, yeah, you can spend more time there. kath, what am i doing tomorrow? what, what? stick up walls. that,. come on then. phone calls can we make? ah that's alright then? same as this. thanks kathy. okay. thank you kath. i won't be here tomorrow. see you soon. oh that's alright then. hopefully. you'll tha , you'll, yes so we can ring you up. have a brilliant time. oh righto. what i want you to do, i don't want to delay you because of your erm trains and i'd will have hate to be the ones that keep you any later, you have an i know. evaluation sheet yes. and you have your agenda, will you fill it in and send it to me? how shall we send it? right. which service would you internal. like us you to use? you do that three day. who is taking these when did you want it? through to the me. oh are you justin? will you send me yours? okay. will the others fill them in now. oh! jenny, i need to get your can we fill them in tonight and my bag out of the back. give it in can you give me it tomorrow? but give them in the morning cos we've got to come over in the morning haven't we? shall i give the keys to well what are you gonna do now then? are you gonna drop it down? i'll go and i dunno. cos i haven't thought. oh brilliant! you're gonna stay. you're gonna sit down and do them now. i'll give the keys to you in a minute. have you got time to do it now? no, cos we'll be going in a minute. i'll do it tomorrow. no you're se , you're sta staying said we've just gotta stay here. to do them now. yeah but i thought we should get cracking in the car. we can't really stay, you have to come in in the morning. yeah. danny , you're, you're getting your er, you're gonna wait for yours are you? i've already done it now? see you! nice meeting everybody. . take care. see you later . no carly, it's too late to do it now. yeah, hopefully. i just got a message from . see you later mate. would you fill that in now see you later mate. and then sleep on it? are you feeling alright my dear you look a bit? see you back at the old sales office. no i don't. yeah , you could say that. no? i don't feel in here. right, see you later then. cos i've been spectating i know. john never said. you look a bit, i've lost you somewhere now. thanks a lot. see you mandy. see ya. see you mandy. bye. give me a ring. yeah i'll find out. even if it's . cos i don't know your number, give me a ring between one and three. give you a, a chat to you. freephone number . ah! oh good! oh sorry darling. of course! of course! see you danny. bye jenny. bye love. , back to your car yes? it's, jenny yeah well we'll going anyway so will you, be alright when you get to your car? yeah. no stay here with me i'm gonna walk no but she's got a phone in the car. take care ladies , look after yourselves. yeah and you bill. yes well this is . best of luck bill. i hope to hear from you. get some . oh i see. yeah and you. oh i've got to see if frank's changed. well no, you can do it first. i dunno, but we haven't got any. i need them. well in, twenty minutes. well yeah. in twenty minutes? so you'll be back here at quarter past four alright then. and you finish the . okay then. so you don't have to . you know that would be better wo oh oh oh oh! yeah, i think she wants i'm trying oh that's better. don't worry. everything will be fine. alright. well i'll bring him back here. yeah. yeah. well where are you going, are you not coming back then now? alright. what, what room number are you in then? one, twenty eight? yeah. right, i'll give you a ring when they well er, once i've had my dinner. cheers then. see ya. ta ta. see you later. yep. bye- bye. ta -ta. i do get i mean it's come back i think it's, it's down there you might say it's with, with . what's second, third and fourth? jenny i thought would ring . see you later. i'll see you back at the classroom round there what room number are you in? tomorrow morning okay. then bill? thanks very much. my stomach's churning. i'll see you when you come down tomorrow then. if you'd like to go and get a cup of tea no it's alright john. from the canteen bye! you can fill that in down there. if you'd rather have a cold drink we got a same day driver picking me up at five fo , five thirty outside the hotel. oh right. five? well you get off. on same day service now? oh you're going same day are ya? yeah they said erm can we see said it could be better i'll get it. don't worry. use my cell phone. can we cube ya? i think this is a telephone shall i tell no i think mandy's in the area. phone, does anybody know how i'm gonna get one? hello . where's jenny now? she's gone down to pay for the, get something out of the boot outside. and help me do . oh has she? a fiver. oh, you're a hard women, och i'll buy you . david's getting them in. what? or thre er terry. what? are you getting a lift with justin? no i just said. no. er justin i want erm my and my bag. no jenny's coming back, i think. justin's not coming back. i think justin he's taking, has jenny? jus , er justin's gotta come back in i know. a minute. jenny's come back in a couple of minutes. justin's not coming back. well yes. he's gotta come back yes. hand his folder in. i said yeah? that to him. do you wanna go and get yourself a cold drink? oh oh. the girls in the canteen want to lock up and go home. it's alright cos jenny, jenny'll be back. shall we do our we're getting well so picked up. complete this up here. no, no, my bag has then you come back here. alright. go and get yourself a and if i don't see her , you can wait another twenty minutes. alright. go and get yourself a cold drink and bring it back up here. ? yeah. i dunno if she's coming back. that's a closed question. ah! mind you, well that is. shut the door go and get yourself a cold drink and come back and . the only ones i'll let go are carly and bill, they've gotta catch a plane, er train, and justin's got to come back before he heads back to the hotel . but while you're here leave it covered like this and it's a bit. didn't didn't get much of you last time speak very quietly. do you speak very quietly when you're playing out when it's your turn to be rush. do you say, excuse me chaps could you just pass the ball over this way please. no i shout but if they on me 'ead. i just go . so the way you talk normally when you're outside when you're playing football that's not the same as you need to talk when you're writing is it? er a lot of people think, oh i'll just write the way i talk. well if you do everybody tends to make a bit of a fuss about it. what's this you can't have that don't say that and you say, well i do say that. so don't write that. so there different different ways of putting things and i e words can you think any words that've got i and e together in them? and we can perhaps use some of those in sentences. erm okay we'll give up for today. any you've come across recently and somebody asked you to spell them and you've thought oh i haven't got cupboard. cupboard okay that's a good word. cupboard hasn't got i e in it has it but it's a good word. erm do you remember how to spell cupboard? well it's you don't spell it like cupboard you spell it like a cup board. cup. cup board cos it used to be just a just a shelf just a board with some hooks on it hang your cups on it. okay where's that it's in the cu the cups they're on the cup board, hanging on the cup board. and after a while you say cupboard. like forehead. some people say, oh must be fore head. it's forehead cos that's what people say and it used to be fore head and they change all the time that's why need to record the words and see how they're being pronounced. so that if everyone if if people who wrote the dictionaries didn't know people'd still be going round thinking that everyone said fore head or break fast. things like that. okay now what have you done on punctuation? what do you think punctuation means? oh sorry. oh it's my fault leaving it there. erm okay how about erm do you know how where to put commas and full stops and? sometimes. full stops then which full stops which is the easiest. after like monday and okay. after monday and names and right erm so when you read for reading. oh well we'll we'll have a look at these i e words and we'll have a look at punctuation some time. how where to put full stops. remind me before the end of this lesson and we'll have a little look at how to get full stops right cos it's not too hard with those. i e mm right. what have we got here? could you could you write thief? thief. mm. t mm go on. t h t h right ooh that's nice writing that's nice that's very and now e i well lets have a look e i pen isn't it. now ooh okay. erm now you're putting you're e i again aren't you. right so it's very awkward erm really you just think, i can't remember is it i e, e i. you write it down and you think, mm maybe that's right maybe it's the other way. so there's a fairly good rule that works nearly all the time. the first thing to do is is it making an e sound this i e? e yeah. e yeah okay so we can use the rule which should now work pretty well all the time. so it's i before e except after c. so is it after a c does the i e come after a c? no so it's going to be i e. so try t h i e that's it and then the? what? what's what's the last letter? h innit f. thief. oh f. yeah thief. okay that's it. now on your own have a go at chief. chief. alright chief. chief? chief. chief. like an indian chief or c that's it. okay very good. and brief. mm. oops missed the i mm do it again that one with with the with the whole lot in. just just one line through when you cross out. brief. oh not again. so do the b r and then stop and think do b r and then think now which am i gonna do i e r scribble there . so do yeah. now i f that's it okay so if you can remember that rule the these these words are ones that a lot of adults get wrong a lot of the time. they'll they and they you'll see them going mm not that not that one back to the first i don't know and then they get the dictionary out. yeah. and they have a look and then they say, oh i'm sure it wasn't that way. so how about grief? grief. that's just the same with a g. exactly right very good yeah well done. so if that's brief, grief is going to be the same cos it's the same mhm. rule. how about erm field. erm as in a football field. does it make an e sound? l yeah so it's i it makes an e sound so we use it this i e or e i is it after a c? no so brilliant. so it's a good rule that. there are quite a lot of words that that will work for. now let's try the other ones where it's after a c okay. let's try could you spell ceiling? it starts with a c i'll give you a clue on that. mm. and the next thing that happens is an e sound. that's brilliant. that they that's it exactly. have you ever spelt it before? no. see so it's just by learning the pattern it's like say if you were you were playing football every time somebody every time the ball came towards you you had to learn all about the way the ball goes oh it's you know it's slowing down cos the grass is wet and it's curling and things like that. if you had to learn every time you couldn't spot patterns you'd never you'd never be able to play football cos you'd be you'd always be a learner wouldn't you. you'd always be thinking, oh what's go what's going to happen to this. but as yo as you learn hold on. watering the garden eh? is that your dog or next door's? the dog's oh. so i think that was pretty good i think it was brilliant in fact ceiling you've never seen it before worked out how to spell it. so it's a good rule this. now how about receive? these are ones these are ones that a lot of adults get wrong, receive. okay is that a is that a y that last one? yeah. er receive v v. v what sound does a y make on the end of a word? right tacky oh. or jolly, happy makes a makes the e sound usually. so that's that's that's great you've got the hard bit recei and then it's v that y should be a v e so just cross the tail off the y. receive erm there are there aren't a lot of other words that do have c in well there are but they're quite sort of awkward words like try deceive. deceive. just finish off receive so that's v e okay receive try deceive. deceive oh. that's it. that is brilliant. i've never heard of that word. ah if you're erm conning someone you calling con conning someone oh conning . you're giving them a a load of old flannel and trying to trying to trying to persuade them that something's true you're deceiving them. yeah erm you give you give you give me the money now and i'll give you the elephant later it's just round the corner. you know. oh it's a good car this yeah it's only done two thousand miles. one lady owner a vicar's wife you know. okay erm now so does what what are the rules about this i e thing? i before the e except c. except when it comes after c except after c. that's brilliant but that's only when it makes an e sound. now there are some i e words e and an i or an i and an e and it doesn't make an e sound. how about erm things like ooh foreign can you spell foreign? foreign? or neighbour, do you ever watch neighbours ? neighbour. no. nor me can't stand it. the first time i watched it i thought that's wrong. okay that's not right but what's what's right about it? it starts with n ends in s okay. n something. erm is this a d or a b? oh. okay so that's a b. yeah. erm you don't always get it wrong you've been doing quite well but occasionally you just if you're mm. if you i think it happens when you're worrying about something else in the word and you're concentrating on something else thinking, ooh what's he want here is it going to be an e i or an i e or what. you're concentration goes it's like er it's like someone's going to try and head it in to the net and he's trying to work out which corner it's going into and he's yeah. so busy working it out he misses the ball in the end. yeah. concentrating too much on the little details rather than the main thing so b and d quite important to get those. erm right mm do you know you know you know d and b don't you? you don't need to practise them at all you know which one's which. yeah. cos some people have trouble with them and they can't see a difference they can't see any difference. i know. but er i don't think you are at all dyslexic are you. no one ever mentioned that i don't think so. okay other other words with do you think you could look that one up? neighbour it's erm it's quite an awkward word it comes in occasionally you can look it up if you like. look it in a di have you got a dictionary? i don't think so erm erm. probably. look in the do you get yeah i've got a t v times? or radio times or the paper . we've got we've got a dictionary yeah. right if you haven't if you can't find the dictionary you could look in the paper see what time neighbours is on. mhm. and it'll say you'll see how to spell it . erm do you read the paper at all? what do you read? the what's on telly what's on the cinemas mhm. erm anything else you read er football pages anything like that ? yeah a bit about football. okay. erm when you read it you come across strange words you know words that maybe you know you've heard them but you wouldn't think of trying to write them. erm well i read well if you if you couldn't read it yeah you can get someone to help you but if you can't u usually see you know quite a lot of words. you know a lot more words than you know how to spell don't you. and this is the problem. erm as you get older once you get to my age you can spell most of the words you know. but at your age you know so many words you couldn't really be expected to spell all of them and you're you're thinking oh whatever i do i every word i write down is wrong. and it's not. something like ooh nine out of ten maybe more than that perhaps ninety five out of every hundred words that you write down are okay they're spelt correctly it's just the awkward ones. the only trouble is the teachers keep giving you all the awkward one don't they everybody yeah. does because those are the ones you have to learn how to spell. now they don't come in right today we're going to spell can anyone spell is? ooh that's a hard one. right he goes now who's going to spell cat? right all these words you know how to spell them. but there's some awkward ones and they've got to concentrate on the awkward ones so that you get this impression i can't spell anything. we had twenty spellings yesterday and i only got five right. okay but they were f they were twenty awkward ones if they said right we'll have you pick any twenty words you know and see if you can spell them you'd get twenty out of twenty wouldn't you. okay. the maths now the maths we'll have a we'll have a look at that erm tied deceive right can you spell eight? eight? eight number eight think about maths. it's one of these i e words but it doesn't make an e sound does it? good that's it good go on. oh. that is brilliant. excellent. now that is a very awkward word i mean it's nothing like that it should be a t e shouldn't it. that doesn't look a could you do weight? that's that's that's eight. yeah and weight's just the same but just the same. go on. right now it is just the same is that what you've written though? what. what did you do. eight. there? that's eight yeah yeah. and what have you got here? weight. what does it say? oh wight. right wight. quite wight. so i i think you get bored with some of this when it's easy you're looking at that and you think, oh i can do this just put a w in front of tr . yeah and then mm and you forget yeah. you're you're not concentrating so you need to concentrate a bit on making sure that you finish off like you know somebody's somebody's passed to you're right in front of the goal all you've got to do is tap it in and you think, oh anyone could do this which foot should i no problem and then by the time cos you just lose lose concentration. yeah i haven't kicked the ball yet. mm you've got to keep on top of it and keep with it . mm. so how a so write that one out again s with the the way it should be for weight . yeah that's it on the same line . weight. hang on that's eight. yeah ei oh that's e i right. now you tried it there and you left the e out now you've left the i out. oh. okay third time lucky oh that was sneaky just got it in. right weight and last one freight freight. freight? have you heard of a freight train? no. ah fr okay you can do eight you can do weight so can you do have a guess at freight. that's it. erm can you do height? height? height sounds as if it should be pronounced hate. height. it's the same as same as eight. is it? yeah. i i hate my height. just do eight. there there's eight. eight. and then put an h in front of it and it's height. oh yeah. which is ridiculous cos if you put a h in front of it it should say hate. i know. so so it's absolute rubbish some of this or spelling isn't it. or hite heat. h e i hate. h e i g t nothing like it absolutely nothing like it. so try and remember that i e one when it makes an e sound i before e except after c now that's going to help you with quite a few words. it won't handle all of them it won't mean you're g always going to get all your spellings right now but but it'll mean you can get a lot of them . most of the i es. yeah you'll be getting most of those right and you won't have to learn sit up all night saying, oh he's given me another thirty five i e words to learn tonight. mhm. it'll work for a lot of them. erm i did say we'll just have a quick mention punctuation before we look at the maths. yeah. erm what does punctuation mean? punc punctuation do you want to try and do you want to just write it down. p p u n. title title oh yes oops sorry you you write it. p u n c p u n c punc p u n c t punct and then u letter u and then ation a t i o n. and underline the title. for next time if you like you can think of some tion words and and write them down. words ending in tion like station a railway station or see how many you can but punctuation. the real reason you put it in is to make it obvious what we mean. so people don't get mixed up about what exactly we mean and to help when you're reading it. so if you're reading something out. this is about maths so we'll have a look in that for punctuation. mm not many here not much so we'll questions. i mean most of these end in question mark. so the main thing about punctuation is first you know you know the main points. erm just going to start a sentence what would i do? capital letter. right okay and now i've finished a sentence how do i finish a sentence? that's it now that that's m that's about sort of seventy f seventy five percent of punctuation. capital letter for the first one full stop at the end that's the main point. if you follow that, people can understand what you're writing. and they can have a good guess. and then sometimes you need to put commas in if they're are long lists. when else would you need capital letters? writing the date. right okay. days days of the week writing writing the month yeah. writing names of people writing names of people what about if you're writing names of countries would you ? mm. yeah. okay so the important things capital letters and full stops you already know how to use them. okay so you're okay on on that, what about commas? no. don't know nothing about them. well if we had a long a long thing to read. i've got some here. er here we are. okay i'll move it round there. how about this one about cricket? could you read all that could you read that? go on read it out. cricket is a popular sport in yorkshire. sometimes members of the yorkshire team are chosen to play the england and they play against teams from australia. the west indies and pakistan. what about the west indies and pakistan? so the way you read it you said and they play against teams from australia and then you said and then you stopped there but you said the mm. west indies and pakistan. now this is where we use commas. so cricket is a popular sport and so on. the yorkshire team are pos are chosen to play for england and they play against teams from australia comma the west indies and there should really be a comma there and pakistan. . there should really be a comma there but we've got a funny twist to the rule we don't put comma before the and don't put a comma before the and. like if there's a full stop you don't put and next to it. that's right. you know quite a few rules don't you about punctuation that's good. so a comma we use it in lists of things. erm next year i'm going to play for liverpool, everton, tranmere rovers, chelsea and erm sheffield wednesday. and sheffield wednesday and sheffield unan nited and manchester united if if they'll let me. if they'll let me . and if i'm and if i'm fit enough. okay. so i'm going to play for manchester comma but tranmere comma when there's a list of things okay it should be commas you have commas but don't do a comma before the last so er if i said tonight i'm going to have sausage, egg, chips, beans, tomatoes and cake. right where would the commas go? i'm going to have sausage, egg, chips, beans, tomatoes and cake . comma next to sausage what else is there? eggs. eggs so comma but all of them just before the last one. okay so they're all so could you write this one down then tonight i'm having fish, chips and peas. i am having f erm well what would you like? sausage, egg and chips. yeah. okay. oh sausages ah you should think before you say yes. how do you spell sausages oh dear. well it's a some it's a german word it's a funny word and it's s a u s s a u sausages. sausages. s a u s so that's saus and then ages a g e s. sausages. sausages. what were we having sausages? comma yeah sausages comma erm we can have what we like can't we. oops. beans. sausages beans. sausages, egg and beans. okay. egg no comma because it's no comma there because there's the and coming you learn very quickly very good. and you can spell beans. do you know another way and what goes at the end what goes at the end of the sentence? full stop. now you told me how to start a sentence a capital letter. but what you do a lot i think is you know how to do quite a few things but you're concentrating i mean here you're thinking, ah all i'm doing now is where w w get the commas in the right place. and while you're thinking about that you forget all about everything else. now you've got to keep on top of what you already know. keep sort of keep on so that you're building on that all the time so you think right okay i know how to do capital at the start, full stop at the end, keep that don't let that go just cos i'm concentrating on something else. so what am i going to do right i starting a i'm starting off so let's gets the capital. now i can forget that. now i can now what am i doing i'm doing commas. okay now i've finished my commas i've finished the sentence now what do i do now right full stop. so you're sort of thinking at different levels. watch. doesn't matter. let it go. so it goes on for a minute. ah that's alright. so capital capital t there but you have a look at what you've just done. tonight, not an easy word to spell i mean you might think it is but a lot of people spell it incorrectly. you see it written down all over the place incorrectly. n i t e at the end of it. you do you see things like that so tonight okay i helped you with sausages but you got most of it. beans could you write erm i have been out. i have been out i have been out today. good capital full stop. and what's the difference between this been and that bean? that's been like going out right. and that's the one you eat. okay well they're two completely different spelling different things and you got them bot right i didn't i didn't help you i didn't even say and think about which sort of bean you're using or anything like that did i. you know i think i think your spelling i think your spelling and your general english is pretty good. but i think the problem is that you you only concentrate on little bits at a time. mm. and you you forget what you already know or you don't bother with it you don't bother sort of concentrating on that thing, oh let's get that bit right. erm you're just looking at a little bit that's new and you're forgetting about the old stuff. okay so you need to keep it all keep a general picture. make it a team if you like you know get all the all the other bits of stuff that you know all the other knowledge get that coming in all working together so the whole thing just flows up and down nicely instead of mm. jumping about. okay i think that's very good really i i don't think i think you're writing is very nice as well. what do you think? it's okay. it's i think it's pretty good. erm one problem i think is that you can you tend to look at letters i think sort of one or two letters together erm instead of trying to think of a whole word. because i when you do think about the word then you leave some of the letters out. so maybe think of them as syllables little bits say if we're going to say something like tranmere rovers. say tran- mere ro- vers . mm. split it into each one so you'd write, tran, i've got that, mere, ro, vers like that erm and then you're not going to miss bits out. cos you could easily easily miss bits out. okay i thank i think tell me e tell me what where you'd put capitals on this one about the cricket. on the p. right tell me where you'd start off with capitals. good so first one because it's the first in the sentence that's an c automatic one cricket. on that c. right and what happens next? cricket is a popular sport in ? yorkshire. right so capital y for that. full stop here . good yeah full stop. so starting a new sentence. oh. okay so good a capital letter on there yeah. times members of yorkshire good. capital letter full stop. hold it capital letter erm sometimes members of the the yorkshire team yeah you could have it you could have a a capital on that. mm. but no full stops yet cos we haven't finished a sentence we haven't oh. finished what we're saying about them . yeah. sometimes members of the yorkshire team are chosen to play for england and they play against okay. teams capital e for england yeah. mm. and they play against teams from australia, the west indies and pakistan. okay so what's what punctuation along along here? mm comma. okay so let's go for the easy one first and get it out of the way. before we forget it at the end. full stop. okay. australia country capital a and as you say comma, the west indies capital w and i and pakistan full stop. right and a full stop. i think you're pretty good at english and punctuation i think well you tell me what do you think you've got to concentrate on? mm mm. don't know. yes you do go on tell i what have i just been telling you then that you need to concentrate on that i think you should be concentrating on. well just don't think about one thing and forget about all the others. it's it's if you think about say you're playing football. mm. now you've got to be at different levels all the time. you're thinking about if the ball is coming to you you're watching the ball. it's going to finish up about ten yards in front of me. okay i'm running a bit faster i'm going to be there. right well forget about thinking about that for a moment i'll look round where everyone else. he's over there, he's running up through there, mm. he's on the left wing, ah. two defenders coming up, they're probably going to get to me so i'm going to pass it as soon as i get it. what's going on all around you so then you concentrate on the ball again. so you're concentrating on the little bits you're doing and then you're mm. moving back a bit to get the bigger picture what's going on yeah. with everything else and then you zoom in again and concentrate on. so you need to do this in lot's of jobs in maths, in english, in any any work that you do. sometimes you see someone painting a door or something and get that little bit done there and then they step back to make sure they haven't missed something cos they could be it could be so obvious to anyone who's just standing, what's he doing there he's left a big piece in the corner there that yeah. he hasn't painted. mm. he's going , ooh look there's a little tiny thin bit there i haven't done oh no. yes that's fine. he's only looking at that bit. that and then you leave that's it so you can do these same with your words. you're concentrating to getting the i e or the e i and you leave half of it off or something. so concentrate and then sort of pull back a bit from it and check the main bits and a good way is going through the sounds of each syllable. so if someone said erm, czechoslovakia, go czech-o-slo-vak-i-a. mm. like that and you'll that sounds right i mean you think, i don't know how to spell it. mhm just do that . but you could do like that . czech-o -so-vak- i-a . czech-o -slo-vak-i-a. and people would know what you meant even if you didn't spell it right. thank you. erm no i'm fine thanks. now i would like you to tell me about numbers. numbers? mhm. what are they? numbers erm what do we use them for? maths. well it's a bit like that's a bit like saying what do you use words for? english. oh right. don't use words just for eng i mean you use words mainly for talking mm. don't we. would you like a drink please? no thank you. erm do you want to come out and play? no i'd rather do my english. i don't like football any more, i'd rather do maths. things like that it's for letting that's what words are for well numbers are for telling other people how much you how much do you would you like a cup of coffee? no i'll just have half a cup please. yeah. okay. erm what time are you coming out to play football? oh ooh. about half past three. or ten p m . or in about two hours time. mm. so all these numbers come into your life all the time it's not just for maths you need go to the shop and you're wondering if you've got the right change. exactly or have go enough money. mm. how much are those lion bars? oh they're thirty four p each. what rip-off . can i get can i get can i get three of them. and will i get three out of a pound? is a pound enough to get lion bars? don't know you'd have to work it out okay. so that's that's why erm the numbers are important it's not for maths. now this is open here is this were there particular things you wanted to do? time d time? well i know me time we we we done that not so long ago. okay. and you're happy with erm twenty four hour clock? no. no well it's dead easy there's a little trick on the twenty four hour clock twelve thirteen is one okay. fourteen is two fifteen is three right okay so you so i asked are you happy with the twenty four hour clock you say no and then you know it . erm i've seen the paper an awful lot of adults have awful they have an awful lot of adults like the twenty and all the okay twenty what time is twenty thirty? erm. mm. give me a minute. don no don't do it in your head just write it down there oh yeah. just write twenty thirty. okay and we have to put something in between there. put a yeah. right yeah now take twelve away from the twenty right twelve underneath it and take it away. no one says you can't write it down don't have to do it in all in your head do you. no twelve er an an twelve well twelve away from twenty mhm. twelve is ten and two isn't it. if you took the ten away from the twenty how many would you have left? ten. ten if you took eight. that's it you were there before me right. so take the ten away and the you have ten left over and then take the two away from that so eight. so what time is twenty thirty put the just put the eight under the twelve there. eight o'clock . we've still got thirty still got thirty cos we haven't taken any so perhaps put twelve nought nought under that and take it away . half eight. half eight at night. erm on twenty four hour clock then what time would seven o'clock be? how would you work that out? twe on the twenty four hour clock what time would seven o'clock be? mhm. oh i won't bother writing this so one down. why not? okay what are you going to do then? tell me what you're going to do? fifteen is three, sixteen is four mm. seventeen is five eighteen is six nineteen is seven. okay nineteen. so nineteen. seven o'clock could be ni nineteen hundred hours. oh well i think you're alright on those. erm what about i'm just trying to find something that you're not good at. divided. divi division? okay. share between and all mm. that's the that's the most awkward thing to do the one that most people have most problem with. let's have a quick look at where the numbers came from. okay. the first numbers we got were just counting numbers. everyone's happy with those with that you can do three add five? yeah if i said do three add five would you actually do that would you do three add five or would you do five add three? five add three. good so what would that come to? five three eight. okay now so let's say if we had some numbers you you can you could make your own notes about this. if we're doing add we're just starting off with the counting numbers. so we can say start with counting numbers. right start with cou counting numbers? counting numbers those are the numbers you use for counting things with like three or six or most people call them the normal numbers. now we're going to see what happens counting erm cou ah counting c o u n t count counting numbers. count start start with counting what? numbers. how's it gone today? not bad. good. good. that's all? good. but now he i've been watching videos most of the day. have you? why? did this this morning watching a video. it was on evacuation. oh! was it? it was really good, especially for schools. yes. you know, i mean, why teach with chalk and talk. why not just put a video on? well fancy that! cos it's all there, you know. er, it was really good. er and it's only half an hour. was it all about evacuees? about half an hour, you know. well, german evacu evacuees, but it's all condensed so that you got a lot of information. yes. not like a drawn out television programme, you know? oh! i'd like to have and seen that. people relating stories about how they you know, people lived in these la ca they lived in slums really they, they quoted lancashire. yes. people lived in slums. and they went out into the country to these evacuated people and they, they thought they were in absolute heaven. mm. mm. it says, and when they got there lot of these kids were dirty they had head lice oh yes. he said they,th they, they stunk he said, the wa they were in a terrible state! mm. he said, the shoes are falling off their feet. and these people took them in cleaned them up put them in like a bloody sheet,and all sorts he said yeah. and they really, and they all got an allowance from the government that's right. for these kids you see. and they got the, well got them all new clothes mm. and then er regarded them as their own, you know. mm. and they said, and they loved it! thought they were in heaven! yeah. yes. sa this wo this kid went out having this bloody bath said can we not do this every day? you know, he but a bath was something never seen before you know. probably had one every year. so he had to wait in the house and er now it's bed time now. so she said, i'll show you to your bedroom and there was two sisters, and she says, you sleep in that bed and you sleep in that bed. two single beds in the room. mm mm. she said, we can't do that. she says, why not? she said we always sleep together sister and me. yeah. she said, why do you do that? says, well if i wake up in the night and my sister's not there i'll think someone's taken her or she's run away, i'll be frightened. and the same applies the other way so we always stick together. mm. so we can't sleep in separate beds. she said oh we always sleep in separate beds here. we never have two in a bed. she said oh at home we have five in a bed. that's true enough! that was bloody true as well! yeah it was. by jiminy! when they lived in two up and two down. so she said, and then we got undressed she said, and i got in bed in my er my vest and knickers and th and the lady said where's your pyjamas? she said i haven't got any and i don't know anybody else who has ! yes, it was an eye-opener for half these people. oh! it er, you know, it was very, very good it was. oh i know. well i well, you can imagine living in these bloody back to back slums. oh! and going to some like little farm house. oh yes! oh i know. nice lace curtains and open fields and mm. mm. it was just paradise! must have been. must have been. cos they said, they di this bloke said i didn't know anything like that existed. no. i thought everywhere was like where i was. that's right. didn't know anything. cobbled streets and bloody back yards, you see. that's right. and all smoky. oh i know. well fo well there was some lads from liverpool that was evacuated when we were evacuated. oh! god! they were filthy! mm. i mean not just filthy i er bodily but they had filthy habits. mm. they were terrible! and in fact, i think they only la they didn't last a week. they were sent mm. back. yeah. i'd like to have seen that. ooh he was saying tha that, that a million not a million old people, blind people sick people, kids yes. were, were dispatched in about a day! yes. twenty four hours. it's incredible! he said it was a, a, a tremendous er mm. achievement, you know mm. mm. to get all these people. then of course, then when they the kids went up, didn't know where they were going, and the parents didn't know but they found new found freedom because all the bloody kids had gone to the countryside that's it. mother and father on their own they're going out dancing and er mm. and enjoying their ruddy selves didn't they ? and didn't want them back. and then she was going out making money on munitions. yes. so there's a big income coming and no kids to feed. yes. yeah. and then of course, this was all blown when th the raids stopped for a quite a long time, all these bloody kids came back! yes. and they didn't really want them back at that time. oh i know. i know they were quite happy where they were you see. mm. yeah, it's amazing really. yeah. aye. that's a, it's a really good er, video. then er, after that have another, i was watching another one then about the er first world war, you know. mm. that was good too. see, it just shows you what kind of visi videos are really, for, you know, oh ye er this had got educational video on the thing yeah. you know, and it comes on. that you se it was, it was on here a few times he talks deliberately, and rather slow mm. you know,yo usually, a dark haired chap re got like a bit of a yo yorkshire northern accent. oh i don't know who you mean. er, oh! what was he in? don't know. oh! i don't know his name. erm not james and all these kids came together, and they all went , you know, that's how he talks. mm. no. can't place who you mean. no, well he comes on here. yeah. he's very slow and deliberate. yes. but he's a good er good sort of narrator yeah. you know. yeah. oh! oh. i got er, i got the er, i went, i went ah tha them look, them look alright, them d'ya know those were reduced from thirty one pounds to fourteen. were they? yes . yeah! good buy that then. so i thought, well i yo in a, in a presentation box yeah! and everything. it was a good er, i just think yo er, you know, you couldn't be bit for that. so while i was there couldn't for that could you? well yo you know when i looked round gordon there was nothing, nothing less than that really. and i thought well, it's for an engagement present, just sort of two yes, it's ideal. it's er ideal, and they like wine so yeah. i thought it would be er ideal. they had quite a lot of sa er glassware erm on er half price. or le more than half price really. less than half price i should say. that's good. so while i was there i went to have a look at the erm the microwaves for carl. oh yes. and er, he was very helpful in rackhams. he really was. erm,an bu and he knew his stuff as well. and he, and he said really he sa he said have you got one? so i said yes, i we i explained why i wa i was asking the question, i said it was for my son, and er i said, but mine's just a, a microwave i sa and he said, well he said they re the combination ones now he said are really you know, what you need. he, so, i said well i don't know much about the combination. so he said, well they have a grill at the top he says, so if you're cooking a chicken instead of it coming out pale th the grill will come on and it will brown it oh i see. and it's got a, but it's been cooked by the microwave, you know. yeah. and a and also, i mean, it was, and it was a panasonic one this, erm what you do, if you were doing a jacket top potato, you er would weigh the potato and, and then erm put in the weight, say it was six ounces, and all you do then is press erm jacket potato, you don't have to put any time, it automatically does it for the time. and that er, that's what it is on the thing, jacket potato on there? oh yes. yes. mhm. you know. it was really, it was very good. now how much wa he's written it down, i've got some catalogues as well. and there was . and you can buy now, which i didn't know, erm, a microwave which is a conventional oven as well! you know oh aye! so you can do away with an with your big ovens. oh yeah. it's got a grilling, so you can grill your er steak and so forth, your microwave and er, a fan assisted oven all in one! that's what you need like at the top for your er that's right. to stand it on. yes, but yo er the hob. you need the hob don't you? yes. i'm thinking if you've got one of these built in things you could that's right. yes. yeah. but, as i say, i we i went there and i got all the information there, and then i went into dixons and i i did what they did on the television, you know, started talking and so i said well er, you know, do you have the er ha i noticed that there was erm no finance er mm. you know, interest. so he said, oh no that's only on the sharp and on washing machines. so i said, well how about anything off for cash? so they said no, erm, erm if you can beat that price we will pay you the difference. so i said, oh. so he said erm but we ha being refurbished in four weeks' time and we've got to sell everything in the shop mm. and he said you will then get it cheaper. he said er, is your son desperate for it? so i said, no, he don't get married for six weeks. so he said, well he said tell him to come in in about four weeks time he said, we'll be getting rid of everything. mm! so, you know, but they hadn't got the selection that rackhams had. no. you know. rackhams had, you know, like the panasonics and mm. hitachi and so forth. they were, really good. mm. so i had a good nosey round. mm! ooh! it was cold. it's bloody cold today! and plus i nearly got kno by christ! it is. i nearly got knocked down. you didn't? what did you do? a bloody, a bloody car came through on red! the green man was flashing and we were crossing it and it just li i had to jump back onto the pavement! bloody hell! a woman said, my god! and it came through on red gordon! you know where the er, the er macdonalds is on the corner? yeah. there! i was crossing there. i couldn't believe it. everybody sort of, you know, they were, they were just absolutely staggered! it frightened me to death! i bet it did. mm. i mean the the green man was flashing so all lights were on red. yeah. well it came through anyhow. oh we are. absolutely dearest. oh dear . did you get a hat then? no, i had a look ha, in rackhams again. erm, i saw a few white hats but erm i tried a couple on, i thought one would have suited me, but it didn't. didn't suit me at all. anyhow, so i didn't, i didn't bother. i saw a pair of shoes, if my grey shoes don't go with this dress, i've seen a pair of shoes that i like. you know. well i have to, i, i'll have to have elaine with me about the hat because er i prefer somebody else with me mm. really, when i'm buying a hat. have to wait and see. it was quite crowded though. i er, i sar i said to i was talking to this bloke in rackhams and i, i said do you still have your late night on a thursday? so they said yes. he said, in fact, we're open every night now till six o'clock. he said we don't open in the morning till half past nine. oh! he said, cos we find people weren't coming in at nine o'clock, you know mm. so we prefer to keep open till half past till six o'clock at night. i thought i bet the cus i bet the er staff are not very pleased about that. it's late innit? course it, by the time you, you've got, you've cashed up and everything and got home and you and you've got home quarter to seven innit? course it is. seven o'clock perhaps? yes. so never mind. well i wouldn't fancy that . no i wouldn't either. i really wouldn't . hello margaret. hello. she is in. she's upsta oh. will you just turn light out under the cheese gordon please? she's upstairs somewhere. suzie. suzie! hello sweetheart. come on. go on, downstairs. good girl. good girl. look! int she a madam? here's your mum. come on. there we are. there we are. oh. d'ya know when ooh! ooh! gordon puts his coat on you soft thing. to go, to yeah. she does she goes up the stairs. you're very naughty honestly! don't you? go up the stairs? oh yeah. oh thank you! you little softy aren't you? make sure you don't now ? oh yes . poor margaret . cold int it? freezing cold! it's freezing! it is yes! really, it er i'm trying to work out whether we'll get snow cos er, it looked like it was heading downwards on the news ti news yeah. we er lunchtime, yeah. yeah. it says over the pennines and yeah. derbyshire have yeah. got it, you mm. know. they were saying one road's closed. yes. so i thought, oh god! we could do without it. that's all we need int it? we're going away on saturday a oh. afternoon margaret. yeah. we're only going to blackpool. oh! you're not going to caravan site? erm er, no we're going to my cousin's. yeah. we're going to an engagement party. right. so you're going saturday and coming back so we'll be back on sunday. sunday. right. yeah. yeah. well i'll be round saturday so i can usually manage to get to her. yes. you know . if it's this cold she might not bother coming back no trouble. at all! won't you? she probably will. she probably will margaret. just you and gordon going or are the ye others going? no,we just gordon yes. and i. yes. yes. you know, so er mm is it at the house or er no it's a is it at a place? it's a, it's at a hotel int it gordon? yeah. yeah. hotel. oh right. you know. he's, he's forty yeah. erm how old is neil? about forty five gordon? yeah. forty seven. forty oh! seven. you know, and he's be never been married yeah. before. oh! she has yeah. but erm oh! he hasn't yeah. so er don't know what it'll be like. makes a change anyway . are you he is stopping at their house though or going back no we're stopping at my cousin's. yes. yeah. you know, and then er, we'll come home about yeah. sunday dinner yeah. time. so get our feet up there. yeah. watch the telly. yeah. i can imagine. edward'll be round won't he if he's not there already! oh! aargh! he'll probably come and na descend on sunday . er, no i think i'm having him on the monday cos she's going to have her hair permed oh is she? you know up wella, in town? oh yeah. well they perm your hair you know there for six pound. oh! er now wait what? a minute. yeah, six pound and then it's ten pound for the conditioner and the oh! shampoo, so it's sixteen yeah. pound in all? erm, what it is they have er people in from er sa salons yeah. to try the wella products out. oh! where's that one then? erm, you know albert square? yeah. well it's in brazenall street, it's just oh yes. oh right, i know the one. on the right hand side oh! yeah. there. and i've, i er, i, we me we met a girl and she'd had it done and it was lovely! yeah. oh! so elaine's having hers done. that's right. see how she goes on. gosh! yeah. i,i may go er we'll all have yeah. i've already i've booked to have mine cut and covered a bit tomorrow so yeah. where i usually go so there's a new one opened in park road. yes! i believe so. yes. yeah. next to thorntons. i kno know, yeah. used to be the old post office. well where the post office was, yeah. that's right. yes. mm. apparently she comes from salemoore. yeah. there was a leaflet put through the door at the weekend. yeah. yes. you know some i asked mr and . yeah. okay . yeah. i hope it's a success yes. anyhow. mm. yeah. you know. i suppose it could be quite handy for some of the pensioners couldn't it? that's right. save them walking too far up the road if they yeah. want. yeah. see how it goes yes. anyhow. i hope it's a success. a yes . right. okay. i'll see you right margaret so i'll tomorrow then. yes. okay. okay. bye. see you. bye-bye margaret. hello. hello. how's your husband? he's doing fine thank you. oh that's good! oh! are you alright? yes thank you. and good. and you? oh yes! oh i have to be don't i? don't we? all yeah. us women have to be don't we? we've got to be. yeah. we're martyrs to ourselves. absolutely! bye-bye. bye. tha i'm doing a market research. oh i see. and i've got to record who for? everybody i talk to. oh i see. you see. fair enough. so did you see er, underwood last night. yeah, i saw last ten minutes of it. it was oh yeah. alright weren't it? nice bloke. did you, did you see, you know when that coloured boy, you know the young coloured boy gareth guscott? i didn't see that. know what he said, oh it was funny! he said yeah. sor he said i'm sorry he's going just when i've just broke him in. that's right, yeah. once we . oh it , they couldn't oh aye. stop laughing! yeah. i felt really sorry for him. the whole england team were making their entertainment weren't they? yes, they were . yeah. i mean it, i thought it was jolly good. so but er oh he's a nice bloke. and is eddy alright? yeah, he's fine now. no problems. he's great! he's sleeping well. yeah. elaine said altogether he had a nightmare last night didn't he? night before. oh! night befo night before, that was it, yeah. yeah, talking about all the birds, yeah. but er, of course, he's doing well obviously, but he's not had many up till now. good. good. touch wood, i'll say. can i use your phone? yeah, course you can. cos i'm gonna be late to get a portion of chips. she'll always say no kevin. well see if she's awake. what is up with her? nothing. will you tell me she's alright. what is up with your, well you got a face like thunder! sh no, she's very happy tonight. nothing wrong with me? nothing mum. nothing. i'm alright. there's your, there's your leaflets on there. thank you. well we've been working hard today going all round the stores i know. looking for your microwave and things. thank you dad. tried to get you a better bargain. well ? she's alright. well why are you being so aggressive? what's up with you? i'm not being aggressive carl. you came in though and you seemed all agitated well i was fine. oh bloody hell! it was you. cos you're getting over that i've been working, working till i know. is your car on the road? no. i managed to squeeze it in. oh did you? good. well that's alright then. oh i thought he was giving me money then dad. well i did. you owe her one pound sixty now. what for? for er, those er pads. pads. there's something wrong with this you know, it won't turn off. three forty two. oh! that one's a bit big. have you got anything a bit smaller than that please? how much smaller do you want? er er round about two eighty. something like that please. bit bigger than that. mm. they're all er that's er . that's lovely. that's that's, that's very nice. thank you. erm have you any do you sell fish fingers? any? do you sell fish fingers no. at ? you don't? you can get it from the frozen. oh i'll have some fish cakes. are th are they in here? no they er we don't sell them oh! in there. oh right. we don't sell fish fingers. no. i didn't know whether you did or you didn't. hello. how's your mum? about the same really, you know. yeah. no improvement at all? no, not really. oh i am sorry. i'd not seen her for quite some time, you know. no. does she go out very much? well, now and then. yeah. yeah. i suppose. but not like she used to no. you know. she's had a terrible time i know. hasn't she, really, one way or the other? yeah. i don't know. well, give her my love yes. i will. anyhow. see you. bye-bye. thanks a lot. he said he used to live he went out with my cousin and she wouldn't marry him. wurgh! and so, he's now er got engaged to this woman. he's forty seven, he's never been married before. and this girl's been married and she divorced yeah. so they're oh oh! getting engaged. well, should be quite a good do. i've forgotten where it's at now though. what you doing? eh? oh dear . what are you doing? my giddy aunt! are you playing rugby this afternoon kevin? last league game. we're playing is it? a very big game today? where's it at? at home? yeah. if we win today we get promotion. oh! do you? eh! good! i'm go i'll be extremely dwunk later oh! on. oh! very, very, daddy's gonna be drunk! oh! oh! daddy drunk. my daddy is drunk. yargh! oh eh! and and sick. and did mummy shout? mummy smack. does she? oh dear! and you've got your you're a naughty da daddy. oh dear me . di daddy's naughty is he ? oh oh! oh! and the big crane. you've seen a big crane have you? look. crane. can you see the plane? how's your mum. she's fine thank you. yes. is she alright? haven't seen her for a while. she's been down to birmingham to see our kid. yeah. i haven't seen her for week and half now. cos she's been d'ya think she'll go back to work kevin? oh dear. doesn't want to. i don't blame her. oh got dear. no intention of. i don't, oh dear! pick it oh dear. up my love. good boy. fell down. thank you. thank you sweetheart. no, i don't think she will to be honest with you. still i don't blame her. there's more to life. that's it, i think that's what she's realized. oh! yes. yeah. definitely. and she wants to see more of you doesn't she? and i don't blame her. ah! my giddy aunt! my giddy aunt! dear me . i've got to get get out. you're a scallywag! what are you? i'll go and make a cup of tea now. which one are you having? is it in here? i don't know. yes it is. i'll show you which one it is. the first one. that one. that's me there. now tha that's just me. that's, that's me with hair. like that. are you gonna do somebody like that? i suppose so . it'll be laugh. that's alright that. oh! dear me . i could do yes but with a bit dark in though. but he said er, the man said, and i don't, now i'll see what yo your reaction will be to this. he said to carl i think that you and your best man should have cravats and the rest ties. oh no! because you should sort of stand i out. no i'd say you should have it all the same. i do. you see, and dad does. yeah. yeah. i think you should have it all the same. every time i've been to a wedding and people in cravats are all the same. yeah. yes. yeah. you do one or the other, you don't do both. yes. i think that's really? true. i mean we stood out because we had a er, different sort of flower on, me and our kid. yeah. well that's it. and they know anyway don't they? they know who the flaming they know who the groom is! that's right. that's right. yeah . i mean what the hell are they doing there! well in our case, i can imagine quite a lot won't. pity er the photographer's going and all. have you tried it on yet? no i've not seen it yet. ah! you've you only seen it in that. you wanna just so where are you going where for the fitting? macclesfield. er, macclesfield. when? i don't know. oh. he said just go in at any time and we'll pick it up. that's a bit of a pain int it? all, all being ma erm can i go up there please? i suppose erm there dad. with it only being so er, i says now. to carl what sort of shoes am i having? well i'll have a for it in a minute then. he'd not even thought had he? shoes? you're doing shoes as well? oh! crumbs! and we hired shoes as well for ours. we did you? yeah. he's a fool! i remember, we went to keith's wedding didn't we kevin? derek. yeah, keith was in and derek was part of the,th you know, the, the party and he wore like hush puppy shoes and on every single photograph oh i remember that. it loo it just stands out. i remember that one. yeah. atrocious! i remember that elaine. absolutely atrocious! cos we, i never forget that a seeing that a they were like hush puppies. yes, they were. yes. oh no, you have bit to have the same. bit of an eyesight is it? you have to have the right shoes. course you do! yep. i'll be looking for anything . but i don't have lace-ups you see. they don't have lace- ups. you have to have lace-ups. no i don't like them either. yeah. really? yeah you well we can't have slip-ons can you? they don't look right. no you don't normally have, some people say you should have slip-ons but i ca i, i couldn't get them in, in a thirteen. well unless everybody had slip-ons. yeah, that's it. yeah. you know. but you can't have some with slip-ons and that's the advantage of ours, everybody looks exa identical cos they actually hired everything. yeah, that's right. i mean, did we even hire shirts? yeah we did. we did. oh yes. carl yeah. the sleeve. that's right. yeah. should have had the one we had with come on then. pardon darling? well i well surely carl will do the same do you want something? won't he? well i, the thing is if i'd had a church se service and all that, you know well i mean, if somebody's got a slightly different shirt on and it mummy, stands out don't it? yeah. pardon? he's just been cleaning our window. are you being a go er excuse me! excuse me! have you been a good boy? you can have a biscuit if you've been a good boy. no. oh. okay. what? no you've not been a good boy? biscuit. oh well. slowly getting there. mm. i'm a good boy. i know you're a good boy. mm mm. i love you! a so you've that you, love you. on the wallpaper at the moment are you? yeah. and that won't take long wi there's loads of wallpaper that we would have, but not in the bedroom. grandma. they're all very dark. what darling? and i want very light you know. what d'ya want, a sort of a traditional type paper? er, not really sure. just want it very, very pale. and mummy's car. cos then i can have any fabric you see. i don't want to be limited to, it's got to have a certain colour, the fabrics. yeah. no. wha and i want it very plain to show off the wood. yeah. you know, if we had something too patterned or too dark the wood won't kevin do you want sugar love? stand out. please. one. right. mum says do that's the main part of the bedroom int it? and you'll not see it next to granddad. the wallpaper. aha. up there. we did see one, a beigey, like erm a what do you call? fleur-de whatever. fleur-de-lys. yeah. one of those. and you know, quite that'll be, be embossed isn't it? like a quite well spaced no. out. no it's not. here are darling. oh no. no. we don't particularly want an embossed one. it's very nice, but it was, it was like a mo it was like er er marbled that's yours beige kevin. and you thought it would that's right. have been a bit dull but i don't know. i suppose it's very neutral. fo cos we'll have to get a beige carpet. i think your bedrooms have to be , but they have to be light. better what? i think bedrooms have to be light. i dunno. pale. you've got a dark lounge and whatever. here are daddy. i think it's, it's is that the one that's get like a ? yes. yeah. they haven't done it at home. yeah. that's the one i got from . and that's the one that comes out weren't it? yeah. yeah. they were selling them off cheap. it's got four, there's four buds there int there? five. well go and get another biscuit. and it gives off like one flower a i thought you meant one flower but i didn't know there was four of them there. mick? no thanks mother. are you sure? too close to oh! yes please mother. they're nice these. whoops! eh! i don't eat after a certain, ten o'clock so it's after don't you? past my eating time. i want to go and sit, sit with my little lad who's sat there. well i want to sit so in there! no! come on. okay. my mum reckons frankie howerd's got aids. who's got that? it's the word on the street. where's the biscuits gone? where's the ba where's it gone? it's in your hand. it's in your hand. he means the tin. oh. it isn't. you sa slept with mummy again last night. it's gone. oh . it was like having a it's gone. mm. what's he like kevin? it's gone. if they'd glued him to my back he couldn't have slept it's gone in your pocket. closer! all gone. kevin could have slept on the other side it's gone. of the bed quite easily. what's in your pocket? he woke up again in the middle of the night and well where did kevin go ? that's it. ah? gone! and have half an hour's sleep up it's gone. there. biscuit's gone. biscuit's gone? you had more than me. cos when he wakes up this morning bright as a lark. the floor. hello! pardon darling? the floor. on the while we're all looking like death! look edward. what are you showing for? well, he only puts them on the these we he only puts them on the floor. are you sleeping there? just put them on the floor then. then you know where they are. likes to look at the whee! like heaven that isn't it? you're a good you ga he guards look at that. he guards them for er barm cake don't you sweetheart? no, he just looks at which one he's gonna eat next. oh . aren't you lovely? edward what frightened you? the bird in my bed. the what? the birdie? the bird in the window. the birdie in the window? did it? the birdie. did it? frightened him the other night he had a nightmare. oh dear! the nau dee! get out! get out! dead! is that what you said did you? is that what you said, get out! did you? you did. and you cried didn't you? you cried. i cried. cried yeah. did you? oh! what a shame. that nasty bird! he looks tired now. he does actually elaine. mm. last night he got into bed with you and all his face was all puffed up from crying. oh! was it? he couldn't keep his eyes open last night with having to no. oh no. i had to leave him. she was fast asleep and so was he. cried the problem is with him he was half way yeah. down your back. you know he was under the covers. i know he was. and every time i put my foot cos i was bit worried about er him staying under the covers all night. well di last night he woke up cos i was choking. on the table? then i yeah. table. on the table. yeah, put it on the table. alright. thank you. put it on there. you poor love! put it there. so this afternoon i had him on the settee get the old duvet out we'll you can't go and dunk it in there. kip in the armchair. ah kevin! what was he like on that trampoline last night? oh my god! crazy! absolutely hysterical! i've moved it, you know. i put it by the sideboard pull the tray out then. that's it. and he's using it now. is he? all the time. yeah! he mustn't have liked where it was. he was going banana, what was he saying while he was bouncing? moon or summat weren't it? summat else, summat else weren't it? wow! was it wow grandma. i suppose. no. i can't remember, it was something else. it's fallen off. pardon darling? dunno. did you bounce yesterday? you were bouncing last night weren't you? and i was was you? that's very high! that one there. bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce. ooh! ooh! did you touch the ceiling? no. no, ceiling. no . you didn't touch the ceiling? nearly though? so where is your engagement do tonight? whe where is it? it's some hotel. they're all the same though . well, we'll, we'll be with iris and until then though . oh well we're taking oh. i see. want it? no ta. oh no. last one. last one that now. he's eaten two. all gone after that. no. no, i'll have a what have you bought them? erm, two er wi cut glass wine, wine glasses. eh! just started to eat the fig roll and realized it wasn't one of them . er, that's the last one. and, they were reduced half, er, well from thirty one pounds to fourteen. oh. so you couldn't be bit for that. so i'm going again because er, it's sylvia 's silver wedding on june the sixth so i'll go and get is it? her some these cut glass it's paul's on the, the oh aye! the thirtieth of may. i know. we, we, we haven't got a weekend spare! hey! what well i what are you going to get paul? don't know. why? well if you, all i was going to say is, if you're going to get something like that, i mean we could buy something that would make a set. well that's fair enough. so i'll get one should we get, er, should we do you want to get something between us? er like i we if i saw a vase that was a little bit bigger and a bit more expensive than what you'd have whatever. and then we'll do it between us? you can do. yeah. or, like i say well do that then. if you saw something where, i don't know, say it was two glasses and then we could buy two as well and yes. yeah. whatever. get carl and elaine together. then we could, you know, made up a set. they'll yeah. be on honeymoon. i don't know. don't think they will. oh they'll be back oh will they? oh will they be back? they didn't know how long they're they'll be back. going for. they can't afford i a massive honeymoon. mummy. they can't afford mummy. well i think they will be back in time but they'll but not actually be, be going they're not going to er make sure they're they've wrote back and told them they're not going. oh! well disgraceful! i know. he wanted to go out with that hello darling. i'm reading this. hello my love. i'm reading this. what time is it? d'ya know? i do. er is that seven thirty? seven thirty. yeah se oh right. and it's we've got to er pick barbara and neville up. have it are they going? haven't you? yes. they're going. oh. mm. i'll show you that letter our elaine, that the, our eileen wrote. oh! have you got it? yeah. our carl brought home he's that ashamed of it. oh just no more edward. no! i think it's a shame but i've that's your last one. yeah. ta take them away. i will do now. i was saying to mum, it's a shame because you could have somebody else. i know. yeah. that's right. no biscuits. you know, er like mum was saying malcolm or something. that's your biscuit there. you've had enough. now use that's right. that one. yeah. a biscuit? yeah, what do you do? they've all gone. they've not invited her so that would have been want a biscuit? i don't want one yeah. it is a very, very awkward situation. it's a bit of stinker that she's not coming. i mean, what's she done that for? cos she's, that's her you see. a biscuit. she's stupid! i tell you now can, you can pick, you pick your friends but you can't no. pick your relatives. oh i know. d'ya want a biscuit? ever so sad no. that. can i have a biscuit? they've gone i'm afraid. d'ya want a biscuit? er well it's not as in, sort of, you know i dunno. what we do on our wedding. well i'm afraid she's . you wouldn't replace them then wouldn't you? with somebody you yeah. know, you would have left it can i have a biscuit? you would have done it early enough to say, oh well, we can invite somebody else. yeah. that's yeah, right. right. d'ya know what i mean? pardon? you don't think, oh well, we'll save money on two people. no. and what the hell's the cost of two people gonna have you got the caravan and cra easter? yeah. yeah. oh good! no right. cake. yes darling? can't hear you. you'd like company wouldn't you? you'd like company in the caravan season? i don't need anything really. for a couple of days. before you say anything else let me say,se when it's now he's panicking. he don't know if it means with or without him. i don't know whether i'm going or not now. he doesn't know if it yeah alright. means with or without him. what does it mean elaine? tell me what it means? it means that i'm that you and edward are . no i don't. when would you go? whereas if i'd said i was coming with kevin it wouldn't have been. would have been fine. no i thought, i thought you said i'd got . i know you did. when would you be going? d'ya know? o on the friday. you're going on the friday? yeah. as i say it wouldn't make any difference would it? cos you could why, er did you want to sa to i don't know yet. i'm not sure what we're doing. or, well are you gonna be there kev? well da co if elaine and edward stop there i can do a lot of decorating. you see he plays rugby on a saturday. so the saturday's a waste of time oh you're gonna do some work at home? anyway. yeah, i'll do some work at home. but saturdays are wasted anyway. so i may as well have a saturday at the van. you see what you could do, is you could go on the friday and i could pick you up saturday evening. come and stay after rugby. or sunday. dep it depends if you think you could last two nights without me. well i no last two years without you dear, don't worry. try that one then . oh! i can't. erm no, we'd have to arrange a hire cot and things like that. no you wouldn't, i'd put him in the bed. would you? yeah. well he'll go in bed yes. in a few months int he? is it a good time to try it? well if he gets up he'd have to sleep with me! yeah. oh! course you can't stay saturday night can you? no, cos of the dirty movies. that's right, yeah. forgot about that. can't have ed watching them. no. would you like that? me what? in a van with you over easter? you'd love yes. it. oh thanks a lot. yes. course i would. eh! that's good int it? hooray! course i would. go on holiday? yeah. is that a quoted favourite ? isn't that disgraceful! did you put it on a stand? isn't that just make them pay for the isn't that stand. absolutely disgraceful! she probably paid for it. look at that kevin. i wouldn't have written one like that when i was at school. let's have a look. that's bad that. that, that is an absolute what the hell must they think? well i think she's tr she's doing it to spite me elaine. she's stupid! i come. well it's her loss. look, come. yes i'm coming in a moment darling. no, leave, leave that tape alone. come. that's writing innit that? no come. i it's like and you know it's he . now, well he's brought it home. mum, mum, come on. he, i mean, at least no one else'll see it. and, have the 's not seen it? oh! the 's have seen it. oh aye. yeah. well that's the 's have see well it doesn't matter about anybody else does it ? they haven't received it. nah! that's what i mean, they're the only ones that, you know wanted them to see it really. that is our eileen to a t! i could murder her! i could honestly! she's the mos oh! she's most odd devil! she really is. so when are you coming to the van then? thank you. er d'ya wanna ta do you want us to take you? well it depends whe er it depends on what, what day you'll be going and what day elaine will want the sort of date from why don't you go on friday. we're going on friday are you sure? take you with us. are you sure? mm. if she's coming with her gran. pardon? so the yeah. i need to take my old pile of sleeping bags or something. i can pick saturday or sunday, can i which ever's best for you. on a saturday? you're playing rugby! ! see friday, i can work saturday morning, play rugby then pick you up or, i can do work saturday morning play rugby just saturday afternoon pick you up sunday morning and stay for say, sunday, a couple of hours on sunday. we don't want you there. sunday, your traffic'll be damn sight lighter yeah. than monday. mm. oh yeah! but you can't will he sleep in a bed? well that's what i'm saying i'll put him in the bed, but he won't sleep in the bed, he can sleep with me. well if you do, if you do well you'll be on the double bed elaine. no! no! no you can put mm mm. the two singles back yeah. together. put the two single beds together. alright that's what then. i just tried telling you, yeah. oh no, no it's not in and you, you could sleep on the outside. there darling. and he's wedged between mum. me and yeah. wall and you. the beds. can't get out. use this. i can sleep on the outside and he can sleep a against the wall. have you tried sleeping in a bed with him? no biscuits? no there's no biscuits. well where you are going to sleep if you don't sleep all the with him? his arms and legs do that. mr star face. star fish. star fish. yeah. well where you it's just like well well i don't know yet! i mean, i could sleep in the lounge. oh no! your dad stays up to watch the movies. well i know he's gonna be watching these . well he can sleep in the lounge and us two'll have the single beds. no! well i mean i could well you can have the double bed. i eh? can always have a doze in your bed. i can always sleep in the, the double bed. and then when dad's coming to bed i'll come ou i'll go in the lounge. oh we'll work it out when we get down there. no just a minute. look mum. i'd rather not sleep with him if i can avoid it because he's, he, i just don't get any sleep. cos he cuddles up to you, he pushes out with his legs ! be better in the single bed then. no it'll be better if you could still push the two together. yeah. he'd have a lo he'd roll out the single bed. yeah. the problem is if he rolls out that, they're very high aren't they? no. oh aren't they? no. well what you could well that looks alright. do will he get on a single bed up to there? oh. with a push, leave sleeping bags on either side so if he fell yeah. off he fell ont sleeping bags so it's soft. that's right yeah. no, all i'm saying is, if he got off he's fell off our bed. couldn't get back on again. look come. oh he probably, i mean, he could get ou er, he might just get out of bed and come back in. i can hire you a cot you know. no problem. no he's go he's got to go in a bed soon. well he'll be going in ca oh yo mean, you're having carl's bed for mm. him. yeah i know, it just means it's easier for you. don't no! makes no difference to me. what do you want edward? mother! don't keep going with him. just ignore him. great advantage now is you wouldn't need anything like a high chair what do you want darling? or anything like that. what do want darling? the door opening. mind you, you'd need a few cushions do you want the door opening? at the table wouldn't you? well yeah. well innit? yeah. want to go in the garden? shoes. you've got your shoes on. sound like a lynx helicopter landing that doesn't it? no. we should put a load of naughty words on your mum's tape. oh you're a love'un you are ! yeah. is it still running? yes. oh! is it? i thought had finished. no, it's gone on. oh right. only a bit left on it. oh she'll hear it. oh what a load of bollocks! don't, don't say that ! didn't say anything rude. not . see it's up to, i mean, i can say, you can either go on friday all we've been talking about . oh! cos i'm not what? she's sending it back to be cleaned ! sounds like her. probably get arrested in about a week's time. aye, they'll be down. we're going for a meal on friday aren't we? yeah. good. i'm on call. no we're not, we're going to the quiz night. oh th no, no we're not going for a meal this friday. aren't we? don't know. no! i thought it was next tuesday. tuesday. yeah, for next tuesday then, yeah. next tuesday for that. yeah. cos i suggested next friday and you said is tuesday alright? that's alright, yeah. yeah? just go for a pint int the leigh arms. mm. yeah. then go for a you're not going in the leigh arms! i've never that's right. been in the leigh arms in my life. go for a pint and a fight! and you won't go in again i'll tell you ! terrible in there! it's dreadful! i've never been in my life, i wouldn't know. haven't you been in either? rough. it's rough. you have to have a fight! next to the bo , palatial. but you have to have a fight to get in! that's right. it's like the greyhound. the greyhound's shut now at bartington? yeah. but th you've got the temple just down the road. no problem. oh yeah. well that's a great one innit? just go for a pint and then go for a a monster curry. yeah. yeah. we'll get a doggy bag for elaine. don't want a doggy bag. i could put it in a double one. trying to think what else you'd need to take for . i mean like do you take a lot of stuff every time you go to the van? no. so you'd get the pram in the boot okay? oh aye. get th the pram in there alright, yeah. yeah. i've only gotta take that's all. bit of food. cos that's when we had to stay wasn't it? you had a high chair and a pram, the, baby cot oh aye. we don't need it now do we? no. be good actually if he does sleep in the bed cos then we can go in the summer. yeah. you just let me try it out. well i'm just saying, see th it's a shame you can't get something you know to prop up, to, like an l-shaped piece of wood. i know. what d'ya call it to slip under the bed. has them. carole's got a sa a bed thing. you know that you clip onto the side of your bed to stop them rolling out. really? carole's got one. she said i can have it. really? you just reminded me. sue had one i think. mm. yeah. it's just for er like a, it's just like a, a piece of mesh int it? that's right, yeah. at the sides, it clips on the side. it just means if they do roll towards the edge it stops yeah. the i mean, they can get over it and they can get yeah. round it that way and that way, but it just stops them in their sleep. there's something there. yeah. yeah. i'll ask her. yeah. remind me to to ask. yeah. hopefully, i'll get by then. mm mm. so what will you, will you sleep with mother then? i don't know. oh god mother ! urgh! wurgh! did you watch that on hanratty? yeah. yeah it was good. it was good. i know what i i i suppose it is a good case though. and close to the end a few people that were hanged a are innocent. but i think if you did bring back hanging it'd cut out some of these flaming crimes. i do as well. you know, i mean, for all the well there should be some if degrees of it shouldn't there? i mean if, if it means that th th there's less, there's less people murdered or whatever then, i know it sounds easy to yeah but if you're one of the innocent ones. i know, i said that to kevin, if you're part of the family yeah. of the innocent it's one. very difficult. it was funny case though hanratty weren't it? because sh i mean she was a eye witness and she picked him out. i know, but she picked the wrong one out at first. at first so yes, but er, you can understand the confusion really. i don't know really. i have very mixed feelings about it. but the whole, the whole case was ridiculous. i think he was up, er, i mean that alfons al alfonso. alfonso i think he was the guilty one really. aha. i do. but like in the statement she said he was erm a, original statement she said he was approximately thirty years of age. yeah. i know. and then it was changed to twenty five! mm. mm. things like that. the battle for him though has been going on for years ain't it gordon? i think it's sad that, i mean, even now, his name was cleared and e his parents it's no good. wouldn't know, and he wouldn't know and mm. it's too yeah. far too late int it? yeah. well his brothers are still alive. well, yes. but i don't know really. it's erm difficult to say. mm mm. i thought it was good. but is that on every week something like that? or is no. that a one-off? no. they'd obviously it's a one-off. that was just one-off. that was just one-off. well there's murders i don't know. a on, on, on a, on a monday night now it's a true crimes that have never been solved. er with edward woodward or something? yes. well this week, it's freddie mills. now he was a very well known boxer when we were young, in our teens weren't we gordon? mm. and he was the first er, really, er boxer who became a celebrity. you know, like henry cooper is yeah. now? well he mixed with all the stars and of course, i suppose part of the underworld, but er they reckon that he didn't kill himself, i mean they did bring it in as suicide but er they reckon that you know, there's people think he was murdered. oh i see, so he was a good boxer weren't he gordon? yeah. he really was. do you know what he did to me then? he was pla he, i said go on you can go out. he says, yes. i, i, get shoes. and he brought my shoes for oh! me ! in the mornings he brings me my slippers and then sli pulls my dressing gown off the door. dressing gown. i say oh no! another ten minutes in bed edward . yeah. i know. he makes me laugh. we were talking to a woman in the shop over this bathroom and he said, tt, let's make a . i says nick we're going now. why you been looking at bathrooms this morning? been looking at sinks again. have you? yeah. well we we i was saying to dad, i mean, this one that we were going to get was three sixty. it's ridiculous! not paying that! we've got one down to one eighty. erm, that's about the cheapest we seem to be able to get that one. have you heard him, he calls me elaine. i know he does. does he? and kevin, kevin. does he? eh! oh dear! what have what have you you got there? a full packet of biscuits! mr snotty nose. biscuit. edward, you're gonna look like one. my biscuits. biscuits again? he'll eat the packet. first. he'll eat the packet. come here. alright. he was bouncing on the trampoline last night give them to me and i'll . and he, as he was bouncing he was shouting really loud and i was saying, oh yeah! you're very good. you're very good. oh! that's great! you're bouncing so high. and he's stopping and going here, you can have i'm good. one of these. that's the last one! i said and very good. so he'll bounce again. he's bouncing away now and shouting no! don't put and stops and them on the floor. kevin. shout. to get his da to shout at his daddy . oh! oh! well i suppose it's understandable though when he hears us. you know you use a name. i keep saying, no look! it's daddy. blooming heck it's ! edward. that would have been jimmy . tt. oh! edward ! that was a great big blooming shh! it's not recording. it is. is it? mm. ooh! edward. come come and have your voice recorded. he's had it recorded haven't you? daddy. daddy. mummy. who am i? barm cake. erm, no who's that? who's this? who's this? barm cake. no! who's that ? i'm not barm cake. i'm barm cake. who's that? who's that? popsey. popsey? is that a crusty old loaf? who's this? he said he's whispering it. say it loud. who else? who's er that? if you like, you whisper, who is it ? edward . you whisper . edward! that's eddy. who's that?. what was in the water when we went with popsey and mummy? what was in the water? fishes. was there fishes in the water? d'ya remember? remember. you remembered did you? that the fishes were in the water. you took them to popsey didn't you? eh? di did you show them popsey? no i put them in. we'll have to go again won't we, with popsey? oh won't we my darling? you've got a red ear edward. he's ever so just me. just you, and popsey. and mummy and barm cake. are you going to a wedding edward? a wedding. are you going to a wedding? are you going to carl and lindsey's wedding? have you got ne have you got a new suit? new suit. have you? i'm dreading it when they new suit. sing the hymns! you, oh yeah, you look nice in your suit. he's just gonna, he's just sing really oh it don't matter. sing me. me. are you going to sing edward, for us? now then edward, and you know what popsey is going to buy you? sing hymns. he's going to buy you some new shoes to go with your suit. aye. we've had a look in sale the other day. oh yeah. there's a few, but i, i, i don't think that that would really go with his suit. it's very, very difficult. we'll find something won't we? i've had a look in clarkes and had a look in th the other one as well. yes. kays. in the precinct. yes. yeah. and yes. cos i'll have to have his feet measured this time. oh yes he does, he needs them measuring. well yeah. oh dear . er er where did i see some? well the ones i saw, but they were what time d'ya start playing? thirteen ninety nine. three o'clock kick off. well? well, you know for like gotta be there at two. cos i if you wanted like a proper pair, that's what they are. i know they are. what, why they've got all they've got some canvas now. what are you doing for that hour then? well it takes me about twenty sa minutes to get dressed, changed. cos i've gotta strap all my joints up i wanna go to right. er, it's gonna rain anyway. today. i'm just too tired. er er i think it's going to rain too. but just basically you, you've gotta get yourself prepared. some people need about half an hour to get them psychology prepared for it. do they? yeah. it's very important that, yeah. yeah. that's it. but, i mean some people th so, you just get a spirit aargh! urgh! urgh! urgh! you've got to psych yourself should be good. up. you go like that in the scrum. apparently they've got erm er something like seventy five percent, seventy five pounds of, worth of are you sho alcohol then are you going in the scrummy with me? next to the bath we've gotta drink before we get out of the bath. oh my god! i am, in a scrum. kevin! aargh! do you think you'll win? who you playing today? play a team called boxwell . aargh! er, you know wayne ? yeah. you tackle me. his brother plays for them. oh! yeah. and a bloke from work, his son-in-law plays for them as well oh i'm in a head to head. the first team. yeah. in a head to head. so er, it should be quite good. oh! i mean we should oh dear. pick that bit up and eat win it. it. yeah. touch wood. touch wood please. erm the team we beat last week no! thirty five nil don't throw it at me. beat rochdale mm. so we should beat them. yes. but i mean there's no certainty in the league no. not in a league game there's not anyway. no. and if we win this game we're into, promoted, and we go into the league then that is a very good standard. one in there. good. we've done very well. put that bit o but er in there. it's just we're a very, small, old-fashioned type club yes. where's it all members and all the members keep the club going. it's all been refitted, the club. yeah, the club's been refitted. oh! has it? where's the car? there was a big grant from the ga er th the brewery. oh! apparently we're one of the few beer hostelries, so to speak, like pubs and clubs and things like that, that make their profit purely barm cake. on the bar take ! good lord! we're one of the few in the ar in the county apparently. everybody else makes,pu pubs so they're having all the bar turned round then? nearly always make a loss if they stop the do it. things like food and it's all being turned round. mm. but we make it just on beer. so you have more room for your it takes something like eight hundred quid urgh! urgh! urgh! a day like that so it's how much? a turn round. , eight hundred quid, over the do they? over the bar. on new year's eve they made good lord! sixteen hundred pounds over the bar. good lord! yes? what? and that's purely on beer and alcohol. so the brewery are very keen to sort of keep in there and make yes. money. yeah. they're given thirty grand runny nose! mummy, can you to do the bar up. can you come here? so a club like that's it, all in the corner like that. we'll put it all in the it is, yeah. corner. we got a ma massive membership. which corner? we've got seven teams corner, corner altogether. well where's the sink going to go? and most clubs did very well to get three or four. the sink, erm the sink, erm mm. down there. very good fe yes. feeling as well. what about the wardrobes? it won't go up . where are you gonna have the sink then? right here. the sink's gonna go, sort of, there is it? well i think yeah. and what about, what about the bed? where's the bed going to go? mummy's bed's gonna be a plane. yeah. the bed's gonna have a plane on it? he goes into the front bedroom and tells where everything's going to go. right. is, is gerry playing so shall we have the wardrobe over there? today? yeah. played well last week. monkey. cos the first time he was on thursday last week. monkey. yeah i saw his name in monkey. the local. mm. yeah. mummy, we're all gonna be late. played well last week. we're gonna be late. they all played well last week so when are you going to play for the colts? got the never! the under-eights first. you're a cissy aren't you? that's what we start off, under-eights. what th what, is that what they start? under-eights, yeah. oh. we have under-eights you'll be in there saying and then go on to get off! then they have get off! what's called the colts when they're get off! eighteen. i played for the don't you? club at the under-sevens first. get off my yeah? biscuit! first went down when i was nine. well you see it depends how, what go you're going on to. under-eights is the youngest we have. eh! se seven. i'll thump you! they play at seven. they play at seven? that's the youngest? yeah. that's the youngest to my knowledge, yes. yeah. erm and a lot clubs don't have that. a lot of clubs start at under-thirteens. yeah. this year i played er my twentieth year for the club. did you ? mm. did you really? i started when i was nine. oh! oh! god! you've only got seven years to go ! mhm. elaine used to deafen them on the side there! why, d'ya get, do you have to retire at a certain time? sorry? do you have to reti pack it up a certain time? oh no, there's blokes at our club playing at yes it fifty. is there really? it's a aye. yeah. movies. i don't care. a lot more than that. they do the nor does anybody. they're a different team though aren't they, of course? oh yo they have, we have what's a called a vets team. got an oldies team have you? vets. veterans? yeah. that's the end of that. some of the veterans teams are absolute bastards to play with! are they? really hard! dead dirty. are they? oh aye. well they're all cynical old and a sods! are they quick is what i oh no. they're not quick. but they're just cynical, they know all the dirty tricks. one. yeah. you get some right smacks when you play vets teams. well . well yeah. cup of is he wo on that? no, no, he tea. plays on, he plays for the first team normally i think. hot. yes. and he hasn't what over here? been a dirty player. oh,. but th people like mike well you're supposed to be. thank you darling. yeah. you're supposed to, like mike . don't pull that sweetheart. he's erm whatsername? how old's mike ? i think he's thirty eight, and he's on the first team. mm. and he's old for a, for a player. but he's a very, very good player. he's excellent player. he played for the county and things like that? is he thirty eight? mike is, he's thirty eight. but hims isn't really a rugby player build is he? oh aye, yeah. oh he is. is he? he's quite . he's a big man. a big stocky, big oh he's quite big. stocky bloke. yes. is he? yeah. oh aye. what was he did kevin when he was training fo quite a few months back? something to do with his chest? oh he was doing weight training and erm he was doing weights that much he er tore the whole of his chest muscle away from his shoulder. cos all his chest good lord! muscle just came down here like a woman's breast. i'd say he could wear a bra. it was down here oh it was awful! cupped like that and all the muscle and tendons were sat there. good god! it's revolting! bloody thing . he trains very, very snap! well don't he kevin? yeah he snap! i trained with him snap! in weights about four or five years snap! ago and he could walk me at weights. he's got them all in garage and that is a strong man! got all the stuff in the garage. has he? but he's a builder so he's just well i know you're anaemic. very strong bloke indeed. but i mean, not all rugby players are big. i know i'd say to look at i to look at him you wouldn't think it. no, he don't, he don't look sort of particularly no. that's right. i mean, we've got a lad called morgan oh yeah. and he's a bit shorter than you duck. and he's your build i know. yeah. and he's a winger, and he's brilliant! he's a really good player morgan. oh! he's on the first team today. well look nig . yeah, but nig is tall though. nig is tall. yeah, but he don't look like a rugby player. no. so do you get people that's wha just as light as eleven stone playing then? oh yeah. yeah. i mean morgan, i bet morgan's not over eleven stone. mm! well he was at the wedding. don't you reme d'ya remember he started off all that sort of irish dancing. irish dance,yes. that's it . can i go on there? i mean you get some very small players. mm mm. mm. has mandy had her baby yet they're not all, all d'ya know? not due yet. you eat it. no. it's quite amusing, the england players have erm, got a second row and he's not big enough to play in the second row for england see what he did? he's only six foot five. put it in the ashtray ! no. no more. a biscuit. no. no! they're all go a biscuit. no! edward. a biscuit. no! a biscuit. no! a biscuit. no i said! a biscuit. no! mummy. no ! they say rugby, er the game of rugby they've all gone now. is played by gentlemen don't they? that's right. it's a hooligan's game played by gentlemen. yeah. and football's a gentlemen's game played hoo hooligans. hooligans. ah. they say about watching as well. ah! ah! don't you smack your popsey! er er they never, you know when you watch it on television, there's never trouble in rugby like they do in football is there? well i in rugby when there's trouble, it's face to face say what you wanna say and smack them! in football, it's wait till the ball's gone then kick them from behind! ye cha it's all bloody it's a bit more child it is isn't it? it's silly li hello. little schoolgirls play football. mm. rugby league's the harder game of the three. is it? yeah. it's no use trying to smarm me . i could watch a game of rugby, i couldn't watch a biscuit. a game of football. no! yeah. i wonder what is, what is the basic difference between rugby league not me. and rugby union then? rugby union players have got a brain. just there. yeah . rugby league players are thick! is it for me? stupid! what do you play? what do i mummy. i knew she was gonna say which do you mummy. play ! rugby union i play. well rugby league is a, is a, is there basically more things you can rugby league players get paid for playing rugby. fresh orange? it's a job. yeah. er, that's what you see on a saturday what? afternoon are things like rugby league challenge cup final or something. yeah. salford saint helens yeah. wigan, widnes, they play rugby league. you get paid for playing er, you don't ha or you have very few scores, you don't have line-outs and basically you tackle about a hundred million times a game. so basically you just run at them all the time. fresh orange. i see. so the rules are a bit different then? oh yeah, they are quite significantly different. but i know a lad that's physio for wigan okay darling. wigan rugby league, they do a very good physio now and he was saying when he was leigh, he was with leigh rugby league first of all, they had players in their second team and it was their sole intention to go out and break people's jaws! it's the only way to do it in a game. they don't care if you get here are darling. sent off for it. as i say ta. absolutely stupid! good boy. mm mm. th the only ones are ed educated are the ones that go from rugby union to rugby league. the rest of them are absolutely stupid! ye they're all the miners, the steel workers, the clea th the can you put road cleaners. have you, is he got yeah. you? they're not proper people. no. no. they're not. they're absolutely i'm sure they'll be pleased to hear him say that ! and all the, all they are er they constantly get done up for beating people up in pubs. mm. they're just dic er er aggressive. aggressive people are they? very fit, very aggressive. dickheads. basically. yeah. mm. yeah. and you can see when they, when they spo when they talk to them after the game. they just, they can't construct a sentence. it's like their contrast mu contracts must be amazing! most probably xs thick headed. just xs at the bottom of the contract. they can't write. crazy! but they do, they get paid a lot of money but only for a short period of time. yeah. and because they get paid a lot of money they'll put a lot more into it. i mean there's people my size that are probably faster than our fastest bloke at the club. our club. yeah. they're very, very,fi fast . mm. ellory hanley's a rugby player. have you heard of him? no. he's probably of a rugby league player that is aye. i like watching rugby league. i'd hate to play it, but i like watching it. aye. yeah. oh . but most of them are on television, the rugby league, then are they? the only ones you see on, unless you watch on sunday afternoon, like i watched last sunday, that's rugby union. mm mm. on a saturday afternoon is invariably rugby league, yeah. apart from internationals. yeah. it's always rugby league. cos there's a lot more sponsorship in it.. that misplaced you didn't it? still favourite, land mine is it? massive! mm. how much will you win? twenty quid. mm mm. that'll do me. is this one national? yeah, we've had a whatsername? a sweepstake at work. oh aye. mind you, it's like, it's like fourteen years since the favourite won the national. they could never win no matter what. no. we're gonna get fifteen quid for second. pardon? and a fiver for, third and fourth. d'ya want to go outside? yeah. i'm going to do a so wee. actually there's a good chance it's going to win one of them. what were your stakes? sorry? what were your stakes do you want to go outside? for that? well it's only a pound, we put a pound in and pick i mean pubs, don't pick a pound and pick a number out. oh. i just happened to pick, i picked the favourite and everyone was going . look! they've never heard of him yeah. i'm going upstairs to do i don't know a thing about horses. come on. i know you've got to . open it. must be ill mustn't he, if he can't even have visitors? poor old . frankie howerd, yeah. yeah. well he is the other way ain't he? ye well, could be right actually. i mean, he's got a very dubious past ain't he? oh aye. didn't realize he was seventy. i don't like him though. bit of a quiet type. could hit him! not that i'd wish him ill, i mean yeah. i imagine he's . it means he's got all the er . god! isn't that flaming whatsername popular? a plant name. oh aye. yeah. everybody has one. i ain't never seen it. oh! yes. lots of flowers . what's it called? flaming, flaming pe er, peony? no. flaming, forest flame. which one's that? what you've got in your back garden. you've got on the corner of your patio. with red shoots. pink, pink flowers. is that a, but, is that a forest flame? yes. thank you. i don't know. very popular. i don't often look at what's in the garden. i know. hopeless! do you ever ro have you ever rolled your garden? do you remember you used to roll them? no. can hardly see the sense of it ! that's right. you think ours is bad ! used to get a swimming pool in winter didn't we? in the middle. where the dip is. right in the middle of the lawn. oh aye. did you? big puddles. did you? it's very hard round that area. but it looks alright because it's a big lawn. you know, it's terrible condition that lawn. i can't stand ours. it has, it's got worse no grass on ours. over the years. the more i put into it the worse it goes. i think it does, d'ya, i think like when you scarify it and things like that all you do is produce open ground for weeds to grow in. well no, you have to scarify it and then you have to you have to carry on the work, you can't sort of do it and then think, ooh i'll leave it for a couple of months. well . i mean our garden the trouble with ours is there's too much bare patches and the weeds yeah. are just plopping yeah. in there and saying, oh this is nice little home. yeah i know. da da da da da yeah. da da but last year, because it was put down last year we didn't have time to really no. we was well i don't think a lot do you want your law book back by the way? well i'll a no i won't. i'll have it when you, when, when i right. need it. cos i just, i just want to have a quick look through it before i gave it i'll bring it over after, as long as i'm coming round. i'm not desperate but and apple. erm but i don't think we, if we'd have done a lot more work you know, it'd have been any better. no, i'm not saying it would. but this year's the year there's your car. to do it. yeah. i mean, there's things we should have done by now, we've not even looked. over there. well no there isn't really. oh yes there is. cos i looked the other day. er, don't argue with me! di did ? and play. they say, they say forking it, flaking it is very good, you know. yeah. for drainage. again. again! well i would, wish you'd do that with ours. again. yeah, it's, it's i, i think he's pooed. no! have er you pooed? pooey. edward. playing. edward. they were saying on the telly have you pooed? mummy. no. have you pooed? edward. no, no. edward. have you pooed? no! i think you have. aha. mummy . i think you're fibbing. the bacon and yeah. are you telling tales? yeah. well i hope you win this afternoon kev. oh! so tired . so do i. i'll think about you. i won't. i'll be asleep. well all the best. gosh! she'll be asleep. is she ever awake kevin? couple of hours a day. we had two hours kip yesterday didn't we ed? in the afternoon. ooh! i love did you? ya! me and ed. well i did, i don't know what he did. da diddle dee, dee dee dee dee . he goes to sleep with me and when i wake up he's there so can i have a biscuit? that's not a biscuit. no. no you've had enough now. two biscuit? no! no! you've had enough. edward. have you got a smelly bum? me, me. that's no answer is it? eh? you got a melly bum? a beamy. you are lovely! having your hair done are you then? yeah. thank god! part- time. oh! yeah. well and when you come having it cut as well? definitely. elaine cut and perm. when you come er mummy on monday don't, remind me to give you that er mummy. receipt for the address. yes. kevin can you drop the pram off what's in there? as well please? either monday morning or saturday night yes. er, sunday night? that's alright. i go there. cos i can what time are you coming in at? then i can just pop on the bus then. be dinner time i i've got to be oh right, yeah. there for half past one. well you'll have to catch the five daddy. to one no you're not going right up there. bus here. and i go up there. and that'll get us in? erm yeah, it'll get you in to about can i go there? er, if there ja hold ups, at about can i go there? twenty five past at saint peter's square and then just cut through well yo oh right. you've gotta go up lovely. shall i turn it off? come on then. up you go. you doing your mountaineering? oh! dear me ! urgh! aargh! come on . come on. go on. he says everything now doesn't he? yeah, he's like an echo. oh! oh ! oh! well aren't you yeah. tall? oh oh oh oh oh oh! gonna take a dive. oh oh oh! aargh! aargh! gonna land just there. hee hee! trouble is, he thinks he can do it with me as well. elaine do it. mummy'll bump her head right right up there? in the ceiling for your, mummy and daddy won't they? me, me. me, me. aren't you tall? aargh! aargh! aargh ! he's not tall now. come on. let's go. we gotta go. daddy's got to go and play rugby. come on. oh yes. we've got to go now for daddy. got to move a plant for mummy. so daddy can bu go home and play rugby. wha what are you moving? a plant. elaine doesn't want moving. no! i'm er, put that rhododendron in. mummy ! oh. haven't put it in yet? is alright. make a move. pardon? mine, mine i'll make a move. seems to be making up a bit. you're gonna make a move. started to well open mine. mm. take it off. pick you up. pick me up. two, three one three two two three ee ee ee! are you not going to sing for us? ah. sing. baa baa black sheep black sheep, have you any he is singing. wool ? we've got to sing hymns. practise your hymns for the wedding. oh aye. they've missed me. jerusalem ! jerusalem ! six weeks tomorrow elaine! sorry about that. i've been wandering co around with this stuck to me couldn't you have taken it when i, you know, when i wasn't actually er i know. you should hear us on there. oh dear god! well d'ya remember the first party we had? oh! i know. oh! that was terrible. you met but you know iris what? i sound just like aunt edith. do you? absolutely! cos you don't realize what you sound like do you? just like aunty edith i sound. yes. but, so, i've been oh well taping everybody but that's who kept saying don't you, don't you keep taping me! i keep taping them. so we're to watch all the swear words have we? oh! god! no, anything. so i thought i'll take it to iris' and er because we're always talking so are you taking it to the party tonight? oh no. oh. lovely! no. that's going to be interesting oh no. isn't it? no. you know, definitely not. i i'm just putting the finishing touches, do you like this? oh it's lovely! oh it's lovely! it's not my colour iris. not my colour either. that's why i'm er not very keen. oh i like it. yes. i mean, it's lovely. she wanted lilac. yeah. well, so she's got lilac. so she's got lilac. er, it's not my cup of tea but i think it's looking alright. aye. it's lovely! i just kept keep putting that,tha you know, i keep looking at it until i think it's alright. yeah. tha int it lovely that gordon? oh yes! not my colour but er yeah. it's very nice that. oh! very nice. yes. is that for present? it's for er sandra and oh yeah. thingy. but,i went out, i hadn't a card that was just right. no. hadn't got one upstairs, hadn't a card, so i went out sa we've been out this afternoon, and i get this card and i think, oh yes, now that's pretty! that'll look just right with the lilac. it's got happy birthday on it! has it? oh i said to lyndsey, guess what i've brought? oh oh oh, god ! so i've, cut it off stuck that i took the happy birthday off and stuck that . oh! dear me! oh! but it's lovely that, yes. yeah. do you think it's alright for somebody that likes lilac? indeed i do! yes! well that's alright. as long as er i keep finding places that i haven't, you know thi this is leaving it to the la i haven't left it till the last minute, but all las la you know i keep looking at it and thinking well you haven't left a box of that here. i mean move the yeah. just there. you keep finding pieces, but i mean as you look at it, yes. you know. cos i don't like the oasis to show at all. you can't see it. no i don't think, i don't think you can, not, no. no. i think it's ever so pretty that! do you think it's alright? i do! yes, i do. yeah. well as i say, you know, i'm not lilac minded. i'm not. oh! i put this frill on first yeah. and i thought, oh my god! yo you know. so i thought, oh, i think i'll put lace over it, it'll tone the lilac down. down. yes. which it is has done. yes. yes. so, hopefully, you know, we're alright. so i think that's, more yeah, i do, that's real pretty. or less finished it. er, but i've just done the pink the odd bits and pieces to it. right. i'll make you a cup of tea and then the only trouble with this job is that there's that much stuff around. oh i know. i kept, it's like sewing iris. like sewing. you really it is. need a room where you can go in, leave it as it is. and close the door. definitely! yeah. and i mean, actually i have a room, i could do that, i could go upstairs but there again, you're shut off from everything aren't you? that's right. you know? yeah. so it ends up, this room gets done. right. i'll put the kettle on in there. it's real good when they do the work in the lounge int it iris? sorry? it's really nice when they bring the lawnmowers in the lounge! well everything's just i know . lyndsey arrived. yeah. where is lyndsey now? in the ba she's in the bath. i said, well you get in there because i said i don't know if there's any hold up because you know is margaret going tonight? no. no. erm th they're away actually this weekend. they're on the lake district weekend this weekend. oh are they? yeah. but they weren't invited any, well i wouldn't think well i didn't think they were. they weren't expecting to no. be really. i er, but gordon was, sort of got it into his head that er they were. yeah. and i said, i'm sure they're not. got that cloth. ah! i love it! have you? i love it! but i think you might like it. i could not re i didn't go, i er, i just wanted to have a look at them but i, i couldn't resist it. oh that's gorgeous! i couldn't resist it. oh she'll love that! i couldn't resist it. that's lovely! that is lovely! and it's summat i'd like myself, that. i would. yeah. i would. yeah. yes. oh it's beautiful! and i wanted napkins to go with it and they don't have the napkins. no. so i thought well they had some white napkins but they didn't go, the didn't go with it. no. ooh! that's lovely! so i thought do you think she'd like a flower as well? oh yes! i don't think she would. oh yes! that's rosie. so i give her the colour of the, what what sort of colours? i would say peachy. peachy? yes. yeah. peachy and pink. did you like the cloth? ya oh it's gorgeous! er i'm su well, i'm not gordon. gordon. yeah. gordon. look at that, what iris has bought rosie and carl. int that lovely! that's nice. ooh! it's gorgeous that. i said to the woman, i said, oh i could do with that myself. i said mm mm. i'll have it. you know yeah. i were only going to have a look. oh it's beautiful that! so i thought well and i said, do you reckon that's in a, i said which is your favourite cos there was a load of different she said, that's mine. i said, that'll do. cos i, to me, i don't think i could better than that. no, i don't. that's lovely! i could that is go do the whole house in that. go eh well and it's just ru i mean something i'd fall for myself. i would. i really would. and it's just rosie that is. yes. yes. it's her but i would have liked to have got the napkins to match, but she said they don't come in with the napkins. no. ooh! it's lovely! they had, they have the plain white but the edging was more like it didn't match, it was a no. creamy colour. ah yes. and i thought, no. yeah. no yo so i thought well perhaps i could make a basket then. oh yes. similar thing. oh she'd love a basket! right. so oh! it's lovely that iris. yeah, i liked it very much. i was dead chuffed with that. and there's not many presents that i can go out and think that's it! no. you know, i'm hovering and think oh i'm like that. i'll go somewhere else and yes. it was from marsh mills. yes. it's lovely that! i'll just go and have a look and i thought, no that's it. yeah. that's what i want. you know what it's like. erm have you used your er fryer yet iris? not yet. yo you need about three pints of flipping oil with it! oh do you ? so i've we walk everywhere you see, and i thought well i'm not ye i'll no. just wait till i've got enou enough, enough in. i was trying to get there this afternoon actually er, when we were in cleveleys, with ly when i was in cleveleys with lyndsey but er, i didn't go anywhere near then i forgot all about it so i oh i do that iris. you know, i thought i forget well blow it! i'm not in need of it, so you know. but it will be handy for me. oh it will. no, we've just been to b and m bargains,lyndsey said , oh god! i wish there was one of these near oh i know. near me. but well see what she's bought! she said, honestly erm well it's like th it's like the erm oh god! i've forgotten what it's bloody called now? it's that german? yeah. yeah. yeah. well that's, that's super honestly iris! she's er bought almost everything! well you can't afford to miss them. really, can you? i don't know where they, she must have taken them upstairs i think. erm you know tt actually there was, there's what did she say? is it hundred and is it hundred and twenty? hundred and something. was it brooke bond? er, what's the names of the main names, brooke er er er bond er typhoo one of those anyway. p g. one of those. hundred and twenty, ninety nine p! i know. one cup sort of it's incredible isn't it? well i know i get a hundred and eighty t bags, they're called diplomat yeah. er er er, and i think it's one thirty four, whereas they're two pound fifty six in er yes. in tescos. i mean, they're just as good as p g and, and all the others,yo well you can't tell the difference iris. no. but cleveleys was absolutely jam-packed this afternoon! was it? i was absolutely amazed! cos we don't very often go saturday afternoon and it's really busy! yeah. yeah. well it's sort of quite nice afternoon isn't it? oh yes, it's not bad you know? at all. what's the time like? er, quarter to six. we got here in just an hour and five minutes. oh did you? that was good. mm mm. right. i'll er did you like the invitation cards? oh lovely! weren't they pretty? yes. yes. yes. very! oh! what? wait till i show you this iris. what? ah! i'm gonna kill our irene! honestly! why? what's happened? she's not going! oh is she not? but wait till you see the reply iris. oh! oh! not what she's written, but i mean you know how much a re a card er, cost. yeah. our carl brought it away from 's, he was that ashamed of it! oh my god! oh dear! just look oh dear! at that iris! she's done that to spite me you know. god! i haven't written mine. oh it doesn't ma i, i,yo na you know, i'm not worried over that. no. but how d'ya like that? oh! isn't that awful! isn't that disgraceful er,ir iris? that's an absolutely did she send that to them as well? yes! so our carl got it back, you know, soon as had seen it, he brought it back, he said i'm not letting rosie's sister see this. and i said that is an utter disgrace! but she's done that to spite me iris. yeah. yeah. oh ! there's ju no na no address! no address. she said torn off a pad! i knew she wouldn't go. oh irene's sort of but i could have invited somebody else you know, iris. yes. yes. yes. yeah. but i thought i won't give her room to talk. no. yeah. she can er isn't that, that terrible! i couldn't believe it when i saw it. couldn't believe it! honestly! miserable so and so! isn't she? good god! int she? i mean you could buy a, a, a little card well i mean that's it, but there's even, not ev not even on a li on a pad. no. i mean, it's terrible in you know, on a decent card yeah. sort of thing. co when our carl was showing it me i couldn't believe it! you know so i hope you've got it down on your thing what you thought about her. oh don't! honestly, you know what, they're going to learn from this ! good job they don't know who i am. are they all anonymous ? ye oh yes we are! oh that's good. i wouldn't like you to sort of er no start a, a world war three would we? no . oh dear me! oh! well that's terrible that is! that i isn't that terrible iris? well i couldn't, i couldn't believe it when he shown it me. you know. er, and er, i said to gordon, i said well what? he's cracked up already. knock some bloody sense into him ! well that is typical of a man int it? yes. int it iris? they've got to do it immediately. immediately. yet she's here all day tomorrow. i mean, you know, it would have lasted yeah. wouldn't it, till yeah. tomorrow? oh no. no it wouldn't iris . i said, they're just coming down the road, i said the first thing your father'll say, has it got a plug on it? yeah. cos that's the first thing. yeah. funny enough, it hadn't got a plug on it. it hadn't? no! well they should have shouldn't they now? well i, i thought that. i said to lyndsey i'm sure they're supposed to have plugs on. i don't think it comes into force till nineteen ninety three. ah! yeah. well, it's bad. they yes. should have them on. yes. definitely! yeah. yeah. but lyndsey was saying her answer machine oh! excuse me. that's the tea. her answer machine er she's got two answer machines cos she so when the other wo she kept having a lot of trouble with it, kept breaking down and it'd go away for three weeks and she'd be without it yeah. so she's got two, i think now. and, she said the plug that goes into the from the answer machine goes into the thing yeah. she said er it went, the plug went wrong. so she can't take the plug off. tt. oh! you cannot take the plug off at all. no they're moulded on aren't they? so she's gotta take, she took it back, she took it back. she said if i send it back it's gonna be nineteen pa it's seven pound to get a thing back! cor! i said, you know they're making things expensive for people. yes. you know. yeah. i mean, seven pound and all it is a plug that's wrong! yes. yeah. it's disgraceful! it was, i'll tell you what it was, it was, no the plug was alright, sorry! it was the wire yeah. had come a bit loose yes. so all it needed was the plug undoing yeah. and the lead to go in you know putting through. whatever. seven pounds it was! it's terrible! awful int it? it's outrageous what they charge. you know for people on low incomes, how can they cope with no. things like that? they can't. i mean, seven pounds to have, i mean they're not gonna probably have an answer machine, but you know for things if things are going to be like that yeah. how the hell can they afford it? i know. it's terrible! you know. it really is. you don't take sugar do you? no thanks. but gordon does. gordon does? yeah. thanks iris. do you want something to eat or no thanks. you sure? positive thank you. gordon takes what? one please. no it's erm it's awful. but i think that's making things a bit ridiculous. so do i. i really do. here are gordon? thank you. do you think you can take time out to have a cup of tea? oh right thanks. we might have finished that watch out! well that could have been done tomorrow! yeah, well might as well talk to yourself iris. yes, that's typical int it? eh? typi ci al. oh dear! i thought i i left ian looking after that. looks as if he might tonight but, mind, it's only for lyndsey's room. is lyndsey going tonight iris? yes. oh good! yes. mm mm. erm howard was howard wrote and told me that erm he couldn't get a he didn't think he would be able to so he wrote and told them early yes. erm and then he found out he wouldn't it's a good job because he couldn't have done oh! cos he's acting bo acting er boss for the yeah. next week so he couldn't have been away anyway. that is good. i bet jean'll miss him you know. yes. she don't like ena. i know she doesn't. i could tell tha that night well cos here. well, and i i told you what she said didn't i? what she say? tha about his mother. oh! his mother? yeah. well, i, i said everybody's said, everybody said exactly the same thing, they said what do you think of her? or, they'd talk about the party and say, hey what about neil's girlfriend! i said, right what do you think about her? and everybody said the same thing, rough. yeah. i thought that. everybody's had a, and they've all used the same word, apart from peter who goes a bi little bit further than oh yes. that. he would. so er i thought i sa i said well jean'll be the one to know because she'll, but she also works for jean's friend yes. here you see. so i spo i spoke to jean on the phone and er, she sa i said, what did you think about er er wha you know,ho how do you like sandra? so she said,don't oh. you know, she said,but she said i keep it yeah. so she couldn't any more. mm. because you could tell that here though. that yeah. night. you know, because er you know when jean had had a few yeah. yeah. you could see yeah. ye yo you see i get, i didn't have a lot of conversation with anybody in no. particular. no, that's right. i never got,conversat long conversations you never do when you're the hostess. with anybody. no. no. you know. erm, so i, i, i hadn't got a feel of it. but, you know yeah. so i've got the photographs. oh! have you? let me have a look. er, you, jean and i looked absolutely . mm. fair, fat and sixty! well that's what we bloody well are ! well, that's what i thought. oh god! oh that's the er bit out of the the paper. what is it? no, it's alright. you ah. know when i was looking for that oh yes. for the erm a witness. yeah. oh god iris! i know. ooh! int it good of emerald. she upsets, and int it good of she go alistaire? it is! excellent of alistaire. i don't like that one of her, she looks a bit drawn. no. that's erm good one of margaret. mm. and good of jane and oh my godfathers! what do we look like! look at my double chin. oh god! didn't she, weren't she well oiled? oh god! yeah. oh ! finally get the i love buster's face on those two. i know! and he's really he's definitely ignoring us . i know . look at his face! i know. oh dear me ! ah! oh that's good. yeah it's good of them oh. int it? yeah it is. very good. that's nice. that's when james said don't it look like you iris. so i thought, after all this time! now ! that was the i wish tim had of taken th he, he didn't bring his camera. oh that's good! yeah. that's lovely! yeah. i say, he didn't bring his camera. and you know he doesn't you know, he normally always has his camera. and he always has his camera. and they're always such good photographs. yes. oh that's a good one i love it ! int it? yeah, i love it ! it is a good one. it's a good one though. al oh fancy cutting lyn's her head off. yeah head off! yeah. that's good. that's good of peter. good of peter int mm. it? yeah. it is. yeah. oh that's ni i always take one of my flowers you know. yeah. yeah. always. yeah. oh my,when was that ? you di you did the vol-au-vents. oh was i ? i said she's always doing vol- au-vents . it's na on that tape that we used to ha oh god! it's on this tape as well isn't it ? course it is . yeah . a not to worry. cos, on, on the tape that we had at that party we were yeah. saying er have you had a vol-au-vent audrey? oh yes! i've had another vol-au-vent of course! yes. i know. can't you tell by my arms . oh int that lovely! yes. yeah. yeah. ooh! it's good of margaret! good of margaret isn't it? ooh! it is good. yes. very. yeah. she takes a good photograph though. she does take a good photograph. that's a nice one. yeah. actually there's to there's two of those . she said she'd got, she'd got you know those things that you take double? yes. but three of those came, so that's good of joan , you know. it is. sh she takes, i think she does. she takes a good photograph. she does. yeah. that's good that. i think she's er yes. erm it's good. is she alwa you know it's her colouring. yes. yes. mm. that's true. have you had a card off her yet? two. oh my god! and ha ha right hang on you've missed one there. have i? i do i don't know what it is though. where's my cake? another cake? well perhaps it's in the i should have one of my cake shouldn't i? mm. oh i don't know. i was going to say. mind you, i don't weren't it a good cake? eh? wasn't it a good cake? yeah. you know, if i, i said to lucy you know if i cos i, always laugh on photographs yes. and i try to be serious on some and i look miserable. yeah . i look dead miserable! not a good one that of you. oh no ! oh isn't that good ! yeah. ah ah ah! i thought i might take another one cos she said the nose isn't quite as , you know yeah. erm but she wanted i i she wanted, it's taken sort of at an angle yeah. you know. oh i think it's really good that! yeah. yeah. what's that? that was just a couple i did. oh. th they're, they're not bad. but i wished that tim oh they're very good. i wish tim had erm taken some, you know well he because he takes, and his camera you know, they're such good cam they're just good colours. yes. yes. i know what you mean. and i think, i think they're a bit pale. yeah. his are always true coloured. you can tell what you're wearing yes. it's the right colour. you know. yeah. but er, they're not bad. they're very, oh! they're good. well i, yeah, yeah. so, anyway better get er what time are we leaving? get myself sorted out. erm dunno i've only got to get changed and put some make up on. yeah. are these the cards off her iris? oh yes. wait a minute. i've just tidied up today. oh yes. one from honolulu, well no, one, i thought i'd have one from beverly hills hotel actually. erm where's that one from? oh that's from new zealand. that's from margaret and jim. oh hawaii. oh my god! hawaii, and they're just on their way to pearl harbour or something. that's the other one of new zealand. new zealand looks nice. well new zealand looks like country and yes. you know. turning a lovely brown . oh god! but i thought i'd have one from beverly hills hotel actually. eh! she wants to be careful if the japs don't come to pearl harbour again. oh oh! i'll show, i must take these and show jean tonight er yes. there's the pictures of the party. yeah i know. do you mean that all the flowers there? if you only want for the effect of being a clown. yeah, i think you're probably right there. yes. yeah. was it between someone running off like that bloke in that yeah. whatever it was? yeah well you shouldn't . i know. and they all i don't like that. no i don't. i don't. yes. i've noticed that though before. have you? yeah. yes i have. or if anybody is sort of slightly backward yes. portraying someone who's slightly backward. or maybe brilliant or a yeah. erm a swot. yes. yeah. i think it's all wrong. i don't actually, i don't know why they do it because, i mean, half the people are listeners int it? i mean it's course they do. blooming horrible! i think a lot more these days, and a lot that you don't know that's wearing contact lenses. that's right. yeah. i must listen to this. again! yeah but, he said, you know, is that your mum there? i said, no it's not, and then say the place. just on the other side. well should have been really taking two of her strong tablets she says, you know, and she has . oh dear! she thinks it's because she was carrying gemma. oh yes. yeah. on that side. yeah. it sounds like a . oh dear! she went to see chiropractors, you know when yeah. oh heck! and that is bad news! what, did she mention anything about the card? no, i didn't. and didn't you? no. i'm not having it er she didn't do the, when she said to me i want to speak to you about it, she said, you know, she wasn't involving me at all was she? no. i'm thinking of writing myself you know, to karen. oh no you can't do that! i, i can. because i don't mind if karen writes and bloody blames us that it's our bloody fault, i'm not bothered. no, i just feel that er you don't wanna do that. i mean we it'll upset her that. she's obviously er very upset, and i, i mean, i just don't want that, she's such a nice girl. you know, like i really don't i, i just thought perhaps a note from me you know, apologizing. why not,get a note from karen apologizing for being a, i had the hump. yeah . i thought, well a note from both of us really. well i don't think she, and she, karen wouldn't want that because well it, it's nothing to do with us. is it? we're sticking our er oar in where we shouldn't. and so the other he's there if you want isn't he? i mean well i know that. you can't stick your oar in like that to her at any old time can you, really? no. well you could have stuck, you know, seven or eight years of age you couldn't even do it then in case it hurt the kid's mother or something like that, or whatever it was. she's nearly an adult. well and truly! getting an old man now, never mind . well i know that. i know, but well it's, it's not our, it's not our er, we'll be just sticking our nose in where it's not necessarily wanted. yes but it was our mistake in the first place. well it wasn't really was it? obviously, i mean i know you're arguing with her but er but if he'd, if he'd have go if we got a christian name that night it wouldn't have gone down as either of those karen or fran. i know well we could have found out quite easily. oh aye. that's a different story. yes. we could have found out. we could have phoned amy and found out there and then virtually, but i think we said oh, i, summat like i i it's not worth bothering about, don't matter just put . but it did matter didn't it? it did matter but we didn't know that at the time did we? oh no we didn't. it'll be worse now, in retrospect, it'll worse phoning amy up at that moment and asking what the name was. and he could have put it down while he was here. cos he didn't know the name that night . oh i know he didn't. i know that. but the thing was, what i, what i was ge getting to last night, is that we didn't bring the name into it, the surname. get out! hey? hello sunbeam! wipe your feet. hello! wipe your feet edward. edward! edward! feet! no. yes! no. yes! you should do edward. shouldn't you? all wet look, all these wet mummy does. feet. mummy does. doesn't she? got the pushchair? why? why? we had to walk from the next stop. have you? why? shh! hello! mummy. oh. biscuit. they make me sick! that man i got on the bus, i said, you do go along ashton lane thank you. er, er don't you? i dunno. well, can i have one? so i said, oh! well that's it. he left it at that. so i said er oh right, well i'll take a chance then. so i said, kilt drive please. where's that? i said off ashton lane. well where's it near? i said, well where do you know? nowhere! oh! i thought, that's not much use is it? so i looked at sheet, i said it's opposite queen's road. he said, oh fifty five. he didn't give me a chance to sit down with him! just, you know, they just jerk off! yes. drink it all. then i rang th er, the thingy the bell to get the bus to stop and he goes to the next flaming stop! and i had to ask a lad stood at front, i said can you ask him to stop at this stop please. so i had to walk from the, you know the flats half way down ashton lane? yeah. tt. oh dear! stupid bus driver! biscuit. i've got none! we haven't . er er look in ma look in my cupboard, i've got none. i better let you go. aren't you going to have er i'll , have you got a sandwich or something? yeah. ooh! ooh! just a minute. let me see to your mummy first. i'm not, i've been sitting down for half an hour. come here, let me take your coat off. i push you. you villain you are ! have you gone and said hello to popsey yet? in a chair. just a minute susie. there we are darling. just a minute susie. just a minute. miaow! you're a villain saying that! yeah. share. erm some more. oh! oh god! edward ! enough. here. don't like it. you don't like it? well i've got no other. i haven't got another thing. you don't like it, don't have it, don't eat it, you get nothing else! eat it. you wanna put your slippers on? yes please. put your slippers on. no i want a biscuit. are you going to have something to eat first? you've got to have your lunch first. haven't no you? erm . now mother th your dress yes. if i'm out too late i know, it'll be closed. i'll not get there. yes. i know. i hope you realize that? oh well i'll go. no. i mean, this should be finished in an hour innit norm i'm only er round the back. excuse yeah. me! what are you after? what do you say to nanny? shut the fridge door please! some fresh orange. you want some fresh orange do you? eh, i'll give him some fresh orange. coke. i haven't got no coke. i haven't any coke darling. well we'll see. i'm starving elaine! that'll do him for the . oh god mother! he's gonna drink more than that throughout the day. edward. there you go. no. no he don't want it. i want a biscuit. that's all there is. i haven't got any! now that's all there is edward. don't go silly. you haven't said hello to popsey. no he hasn't yet. you old misery face! your crayons are in there as well. i bet popsey's drawing now. i bet popsey's drawing. i bet he's drawing the diggers and things. are you going to eat one of these a edward? will he eat one of these do you think? on a barm what? cake? a veggie burger. oh i don't think he'll eat them. it depends how he feels, i mean, if . are you going to eat one of these? i don't think sue! sue! on a barm cake? watch where you're walking. mummy, i draw. it's in here, edward. your crayons are in here. look, on the floor. i've not actually said anything about the car. did you ask about the car ? yeah. dad doesn't wanna drive. no i know. alright. have you got a nappy? yes. i was there when you had your hair done. i know. . ah! that's good. what colour's that? about that one. drawing! oh good! i don't think . that's that little box thing but,. i love . ah ah ! and na i'm just cooking the dinner darling and th then we'll see to you. i can't remember it. are you drawing wheels! they're wheels. aren't you clever! except for da that's all he does is draw wheels. i love the way he lies out the draw wheels. you can draw wheels! aren't you clever? and a car. and your cars! there. whe ah! he's you putting the wheels on the car daddy. you're all in green today edward. oh! aren't you a leprechaun. are you a little leprechaun? gre green socks as well! pre lo got, daddy look what he's doing. aren't you clever! look popsey. he's got up to there, i know but it's bloody cold! it is ca ho cold today. what do they look like! pardon? what do they look like! i know. are these the dreams? yes. is it? yeah. they look terrible! oh so what? they're embarrassing! hooray! wo! wo! woo! woo! woo ! aren't you a love? a digger. a digger. it didn't, but then did you saw a digger? a dig dig digger. he's trying very hard, look! yes he is. you're clever! int he clever popsey? i hate her voice! i do. your dad thought, your dad says a, a jury's going to she's still getting four every week. terrible person! terrible! moo cow. a moo cow! a moo cow? moo cows in that book aren't there? sheep. sheep. sheep. how many sheep? very good! how many sheep? one, two, three sheep. three sheep! four sheep! very good! very, very good! sheep. more sheeps . what's that? doggy. a doggy. a doggy. that's right. you know if he's not sure of something or he doesn't the hens know yes he does. hens. hen. yes. and er a duck. edward, what's this? that's a swan. mm. that's a nice dress. that's a lovely suit! oh! it's started. what it's a nice suit that. what's that? i bet you know what that is. horsey. horsey. she's a lord's daughter, you know. course it is. yes. is she? yes. ooh! ooh! what's that? moo! what is it? moo cow! a moo cow! that's right. moo ooh! oh oh! a cat. that's a cat. yes it's like, it's like, it's like er susie. like susie. yes. that it's, the cat. susie . susie the cat. yeah. what's this? ooh i don't know what that is, do we? what? what's that? can i have a look? a goat. it's a goat! that, oh! sorry! it's a goat! and there's a, little nanny goat and those are hens. aargh! aargh! oh! oh! what was that for? a goat. a goat. that urgh! urgh! a goat. can i have a look? sheep. sheep. he's gorgeous! well i should think those others . in a big size that studio. and they test wella products in there. pardon darling? and the the yeah. shampoo and a conditioner as well which is ten pound and so, when you go back they know that you've used their products and draw, draw a digger. se see what condition your hair's in. pardon love? draw a digger. , sounds as if you do a digger? you do a dig get free shampoo and tell you what and conditioner. you do a digger oh! well i used to pay like thirty five, forty pound for my perms. i'll draw a digger. didn't i mother? yes. yes you did. draw a digger. ye popsey'll draw you a digger cos i'm doing the lunch. popsey'll draw you a digger. draw a digger. popsey, draw a digger please. now then, i need to, i need to know what diggers look like . is it five to the bus or ten to? do you want a pen? well e get there for er ten to. it's nearly done now. do you want a cup oh i know. do you want a cup of tea? no thanks. i don't want a drink. sit down for a minute, he's gonna be a minute. thank you edward. can i sit on the chair? ooh he's a bossy boots! ? er looks like it. no, that's yeah. for edward. you've been a lucky boy haven't you? we've been in the park haven't we? on the swings. you're a lucky boy! that slide . and the slide. yes. and the slide! been on the slide? yes. on a slide! and been helping popsey. oh! haven't you? aha. you're a good boy! oh oh! it's daddy. daddy. oh god ! gordon where did you put that other er pyrex jug? what you were measuring out with? oh is it still int washer? isn't that fantastic! draw. you didn't really do that, that drawing did you? have you drawn that? don't rip it up please! no! no, no, no! don't tear it up. do we? i'll put it just there. oh! look at that man. oh yeah! what time will tea be ready mother? have i gotta wait? no i've got all the veggies on now love. yes we are. why are you hungry darling? just put it up there. gotta wait gotta wait for mummy. are you waiting for your, for, for elaine, kevin? is sam home? oh yes he's mo not moved not moved it yet. er, yeah i was going to but i don't know what i'm gonna do really. i said, i told her to ring here when she finished at the right. the whatsernames, so at least i can know whether to go home and come back out! or what. doggy out! i thought it's a lot easier to come here by bus. that's all. pardon? it's a lot easier to come it is. here by bus than to get er it is. home. so where's our car ? i don't know the phone number else i'd er no. you could ring them and give them that's right, yes. cos er, we don't ours doesn't touch town does it gordon, our erm yeah it does. the er phone book? yeah. the centre of town's included in it. oh is it? town centre. well it should be in there then kevin. in fact, that's included in mine. could i give them a ring? see if yeah. for er . oh! oh oh! oh that's nice. before anyone says anything, it's very curly so it'll drop. it's nice that elaine. i look like vera! oh do you hell as like look like vera! you look like vera ! you don't. she's er, do you know that's no. really nice! no? what do you think of your new mum? don't she look lovely! oh say i don't like your hair! thanks elaine, for getting me that. got a banging head mummy now! i hate it when i have my hair permed. can i have sweeties? do you want erm that? didn't get out till half past four. it took her two hours to put the curlers in! sweeties. did it? sixteen minutes for the perm to take. got sweeties. she kept putting the curlers in and i they just kept coming out. she said i don't believe this! she said a ee and d'ya know what, i didn't have a student. the students didn't you? that's daddy's car didn't turn up so i got one of the teachers. daddy's car. good! nothing would you're lucky then. go in. she put a curler in, she'd be doing, say, down there and that one would come out. oh she's she was having a fit! i said you can swear if you want, i don't mind. a biscuit. eh! it's a nice a perm that elaine. a, a biscuit . i've got none! i want a biscuit. do you think i'd come home with packets of biscuits for you? no! say mummy i like your hair. a biscuit . say that. were they nice people? say mummy, i like your hair. great! it's just like a proper salon, but talk about professional! my mother goes. biscuit . how long have you been home? er er about five. have you got two pounds fifty mum? yeah. yeah. just to sort,now. so that's six quid. why is, d'ya want that? i didn't pressurize you to buy that want sweeties. father. no. and sweeties . do you know i can you pay before you go up so i mean you can't even think about a biscuit. i bought it yeah. because i thought i may as well biscuit. try and keep it no biscuits edward. so really, i wo i wish i would have gone there. she said if i used head and shoulders now on this it would revert back because it has such a sa a strong p h balance in head and shoulders it has the same effect as reversing it. i, i, a hairdresser told me that years ago elaine. she said we would try, had a trial run. she said we did a an experiment and we tried to perm a girl's hair with head and shoulders yeah. she said it absolutely, the perm just went out at a, a week. yeah. do you know a, a hairdresser years ago told me that. er, it's the same solution. yeah. she said it'll just, she said that'd, she said that'd straighten it, yeah. wish i would have gone. that's lovely! that's yeah. really nice that elaine. biscuit. there's a woman there about your age having hers done. i'd have mine done biscuit . there next time. did you pop by our shops? i got it. so do you need trimming after that or will it fall into ? keep away darling. no, it'll come with that. what's that? is that ? oh right. it'll fall into how i want it. cos you never, i hate my hair when it's first permed i do. because until i've washed it daddy's car. and blowed , i bet it were very tight cos it drops. just watch that, he don't run over. come here. should have been on my hair fifteen minutes sit on here. they leave it for half an hour. oh! sit on there. what have you been doing today? have you been a good boy? oh he's been very good! we've been to the park. you've been to the park! and he helped da he helped popsey yeah. in the garden. what have you done to your lip? he's got a little bit of a split lip cos every time he either smiles a lot or bangs it slightly it just opens up. oh dear! and tell tell mummy we went on the swings. and on the no! slide. did you go high on the swings? he did. did you go very high? and then we splashed in all the puddles. and then we watched the spider go over the ceiling didn't we? you've had a very good day haven't you? a spider. yes! i think he's gone now edward. well he's just going to check. oh god! i've not done enough potatoes. has the spider gone? oh yes i have. yes it has. eh? and what's popsey been doing while you were at the park? oh! popsey's been nursing him and no! they watched, they watched neighbours together. ah no! you weren't watching neighbours? that'll do nicely for our carl, that one. is that what you were doing? eh? not very good potatoes though. i hate it when they go all mushy like that. oh i do. i do. i, i like the gravy and they go all like mush. i know. mind you, i'll give that one to our carl. go on. leave that, that can be boiling a bit longer. what time is he home? well erm if, if our carl's coming straight home it'll be about quarter to seven. oh is he going er going to get her? oh no, cos rosie's coming straight oh right. from work. oh i see. what time does she finish? er er, half past five. she should be home in about half an hour have you been drawing this one? won't she? well she should be home about six o'clock. where's the ? where's what elaine? well er look for the five pens. oh he's er, the paper he's, he's ripped up. i know, well i've been cooking. what are we gonna do for tea kevin? well i've got a pound of mince, but i don't feel like spaghetti bolognese. what do you feel like then? i dunno. don't feel like that. okay. have che cheese on toast if you want. he's had something eh! eh! eh! at half one. what are you doing? no ! eh! you're in dead trouble lad. don't draw on the wall! don't draw on the wall. oh no.. do you mind if we sa open the door? no, open it. i don't mind. i think he's getting a bit tired. come on. yeah he's, i felt, he's a little bit tired elaine. because when we were coming back from the park at er, no not the park where was we? daddy! pardon? oh but i thought he was going what? to go to sleep. well it's really, it's really nice that elaine. it's alright int it? just a bit curly. by hell it is! i tell you what, i shall go again. well i it were like a proper, er i in fact, they were more professional than a proper salon. yeah. i think if i phoned up er, you know, er when i we do want one again and i'll say, you know, i'm sort of in my sixties will you do it? i'm sure oh oh they will. course they will. yeah. well i say, you don't have to buy the shampoo. i did, because i want to keep it yeah. sh and she said that that shampoo will last me approximately three to four months. well that, you can't grumble at that can you? and you use, you know, like a, the size of a pea cos it's so concentrated. yeah. so, and i got your dress. good. thanks elaine. and the receipt for it. i'll have a look at it after, i haven't got time at the moment. i'm sorry i was so late. i thought, you know don't matter. go and pick your dress and came straight home. it's alright. as i say , but when she couldn't get the rollers in i thought, oh my god! well he's been no trouble at all. no trouble. he's not bad is he? he's been really not a bad i tell you what, he's talking a lot more. oh i know. he does get fed up doesn't he when he he can't yeah. do certain things. this is our car or when he's tired. this is his worst time. but he's er, he's just had a weetabix actually elaine. oh has he? yeah. did he have any lunch? no, not, not what you, no, not really elaine. no. he didn't. sometimes he does. i mean, yesterday he eat three as though he eats every night. you listen when he says no. i know . a right creep. he de he is. by hell he is elaine! oh heck! oh there it is, i thought it probably it was lucky i didn't get the main traffic coming home. i managed to get on a bus at sort of five-ish. yeah. i got the six thirty though that goes a bit round the houses. oh, still as long as you sat down i say. oh well,. and everybody else seemed to get on it so i thought, oh, just my luck the two five twos had broken down. are you alright gordon? going out the back door. do you wanna make a move madam? yeah. i'm putting his stuff together right okay. now. okay. he's not pooed or anything else. that's okay. right. have you got any water mother? yeah it's in the fridge. ooh! audrey, that's hot. you what love? that one will do for me. er, is there enough for me? in daddy's car. to daddy's car. you're going in daddy's car, yes love. oh . what's the matter elaine? where's your shoes? i tell you what i couldn't find elaine it's cold . is his erm it's not cold. ball. his ball? where did you put it? oh i'm sorry! oh! i, i showed you when i was going. i know, i couldn't remember. yeah it's here. nanny. oh well that's alright. he didn't really want it because er right, i think that's everything in there. we'll go that way outside. right. sorry i cannot thanks for watching him mother. er, dad says it's his oh it's alright. by the way. pick up. what's that? yeah so you don't, you don't like it? well i, i never do when it's first done, you know no. but once it's dropped yeah. a little bit i much prefer i know what you mean it. yeah. i'll take your coat love. thanks. it was raining like mad this morning when i came out. oh i know it was really bad, thank you. i thought this is it's turned out quite nice ain't it? it's been quite warm this afternoon er rosie, it has. you've just missed elaine and er oh have i? baby. i've ha i've had him all day. right. have you? oh god! oh . oh. it's just one of those days i'm afraid. hello! oh hi. god! i thought you'd forgotten all about me. go in rosie. how much do i owe you? you know i was four bottles short one day. that was saturday wasn't it? that was on the er, one saturday. yeah. i was er, have you knocked that off. yeah i've knocked that off. yeah right. thank you. er let me see what i've got here. i thought you'd go you deserted us. oh no, no. what happened? well when i ca when i came you'd gone away so oh i se and i only come every two weeks you see so oh! do you? oh is that yeah. ah well as i know that now. yeah, well that's right and i, okay. erm it makes it a bit easier every two weeks. yeah. that's okay then. so when are you next due? er, well it should have been, er, not this, not this week coming, the next week. yeah, the following weekend. yeah. sixteen right. eighty well erm god i ma fourteen so that's nearly, nearly eas just before easter int it? yeah it's jus well i'm going away on the thursday before easter, so perhaps on the wednesday morning yeah. wo could you knock? have you got time to knock? i could do, yeah, on the wednesday. on the we er you just leave me a note to remind me. i will do. and then i'll i will do, and then i can pay you. right. yeah. okay. i'll do that. that's lovely! okay, thanks very right. thank you. much. bye-bye. i've only just put it out er, rosie, but i'll just put it in the microwave for a minute. oh right. right. okay? yeah. yeah. did you have a good time at your party? yes it was very nice weren't it gordon? erm it was very, it was cold though weren't it? and the place wasn't very warm. no. you know,sa no. i mean it weren't so bad for us because we were dancing but gordon doesn't er dance, you know, so no. in fact they felt the cold, you know? where was it? what was the name of the place gordon? stewart hotel wasn't it? southshall. ne near the pleasure beach in blackpool. oh! it was blackpool mm. was it? mm mm. oh right. mind you, it is a cold place isn't it, blackpool? oh it is! and it was er, it was quite amazing when we were going on the motorway we saw these cars with erm er er there was like pakistani erm and turkish flags flying and when we got, er when we was going at the night time to blackpool it was crammed! er, it was end of ramadan you see, and, and they'd all descended upon er oh i see, yeah. blackpool, and it was like muldoons weren't it gordon? they were all beeping their horns and oh! do you know i've just realized that your curtains are nearly like what i've ordered for the bedroom. are they? yep. it's just, not the pattern, but the style. the style of it, yeah. the the frill and th and then sort of having an edging, yeah. yeah. i er, and you know i think they're ever so nice these days th the curtains. i think they're pretty the curtains. yes i do. yeah. i do mm. really. cos it's not long now you know rosie. six weeks. oh, do you think our carl will survive? i'm getting a bit worried, well i'm getting worried myself but i don't know, i think he might be a bit nervous. he's ve he's very edgy yeah. i think. he is as well. mm. and i think he's lost weight but i don't like to tell i do. him. i do. i don't know whether he's told you, cos i think he has. yes. mm mm. yes i do too. but you know rosie, he does silly things, i mean erm i know that. he comes home at, at nine o'clock and he, he doesn't have a thing to eat and he goes out playing squash, then he's not eating his main meal till eleven o'clock at night. no i know. which is stupid! i've told him, yeah. i'm glad you have because he won't take any notice of me. he hasn't anything to eat time to eat anything. no. no i'm sure that he doesn't. i know. there we are rosie. he takes a, a properly. sandwich you see and eat it while he's erm oh my goodness! while he's, while he's working, d'ya know. well i think he ought to do something. yes. but there's always somebody wanting him you know, at that shop. they always seem to erm ? yes. no gordon, they're in the side cupboard there. oh. that'll do. in the side cupboard love. yeah. yeah. he doesn't get a lot of peace. there's always somebody i'm sure. either on the phone or in the shop, you know. mm mm. i know it's er oh i know, i think he works very hard indeed, he just sort of he does. worries me that he really can't carry on like that. no. and i don't know er, what the solution no. is. well, it'll perhaps improve when he doesn't have so far to go won't it mm mm. you know? er that'll help a great deal. i think, i don't know if, i'm finding it quite difficult at the moment because he, he's sort of neither one thing nor the other and we're out a lot sort of yes. doing things er and then we're both going home and, i don't know, it is awkward int it? it is. it's quite stressful really . i'm sure it is rosie. have you got your hu your honeymoon booked up though now? that's go i'm glad about that. yeah. i've been getting er quite worried about that. mm. we did it last week. you know, i was good. off last week? ya. yeah. mhm. never stopped last week. and did you get everything sort of organized? well, i got a lot done, yes, and al between us we did, you know. good. good. erm got a lot of er, we've got three lots of wallpaper now. mhm. you know we picked another discontinued one. i know. i couldn't believe it when he told us! for the lounge, yeah. but th it's actually there now. for the good. bedroom and the hall and the lounge, the paper's there, so that's something. and has he moved the er cylinder yet er i, have they started any work? no, well let, let no we haven't given him the go ahead yet. erm, we're waiting for the joiner's estimate tonight. i see. mhm. but er a thing my dad pointed out , and i'd never thought, will the cylinder go through the trap? cos it's a big cylinder you see. oh yes! and carl sa i was speaking to carl today and he said, well surely, you know the three of them have weighed that up? i said, well i don't know. but anyway, he's going to ask the, the plumber that we're going to have do it, we're gonna yeah. ask him tonight. yes. erm but it is a big cylinder. oh! never i never thought about that. it won't, you know if it won't cos we'd have to have a new one then wouldn't we? mm. what do you do? oh dear. mm. honestly this bathroom's had so much thought over it. oh! i know. oh my but if you don't have it done now rosie we won't. you won't ha you won't do no. it and then you'll be er, you'll be dissatisfied with it really. gordon! hello. don't just brew the tea just for a moment love, i've got the pudding to put out. i know, i'm waiting cos you've got the pudding to put out. yes. i see. oh well. it's been a bit of hectic day, but well it sounds like but you know it, yeah. with having edward here erm, elaine was we i don't know whether you know about wella in, in town. it's erm er wella products mm. well they have erm people from salons come in to try the products out in the if you go and oh yeah. have your, you can have your hair permed for six pound. can you? mm. so she went and they've made a lovely job of it! i thought you were gonna say they've made a mess . oh no,i int it, isn't it lovely gordon? is it? mm mm. you know, and erm oh i bet it looks good. so she's very pleased. she's got er, good hair hasn't she? mm mm mm. mm. mm. very good. oh so you've been so it looking after edward while she's there? oh since erm sort of erm about one o'clock. we well before one, she was here before one cos she had her lunch here. yeah. and she's just this minute gone. no, so you'll be fed up then having me at home . he was a full-time job, he really is. int he gordon? oh yeah. a full-time job. i bet he is. he's a proper little boy now isn't he? oh yes. yeah. talks a lot. well he talks talks a lot now. does he? mm. mm. yes. mm mm . i mean, everything you say now he more or less er, repeats. mm. and how's elaine? is she keeping well? yes she's me she's better now than what she was er, rosie thanks. i think that sickly feeling mm. has gone. oh good. i think it's just a problem what she's going to wear for your wedding. mm. i think you'd better mention something to rosie love about that er oh oh yes rosie an apology about that letter. we have been most upset gordon and i about oh. this letter you received off my sister. oh! that's alright. doesn't matter it's because we're at loggerheads, rosie. well i gathered there was some problem. eh er i no i really don't know what i've done. i erm no. i phoned her er whe whe when was it gordon? ma in the middle of last year wasn't it? i didn't yeah. receive, not this christmas, but the christmas before rosie, i didn't receive a christmas card from her mm. which is most unusual mm mm. and i erm, my brother didn't and we said well there must be something wrong. yeah. yeah. so i left it for a while, and i thought i will phone her and find out. and when i got through i knew immediately by the tone of her voice that she was, there was something wrong. so i said, i asked her what was the matter and she said well i feel as though er, that you've er, you and arthur have ignored me. i said but we haven't! you know, and er, she said well i feel as though you have. and she was going on! so i said oh well, i said er if you we really want to get the nitty-gritties i said you know we didn't receive a christmas card from you i said but we sent them to you. so she said er, no i know you didn't she said because i didn't send you one. so i said, oh i said, well, you know if that's how you feel i said, but i will tell you i said i'm now a grandma and i said and er carl is getting married to rosie. mm. and, so she said oh, right. and i knew that was the end of the conversation. oh ! so, i, i thought well we will send her a card then she's got er, and invitation oh yeah. so then she's not going to, she's not got anything to moan about. yeah. but i thought the reply was abs i thought it was utterly disgraceful! and she's done it to spite me rosie. and i apologize. i didn't, i didn't take a lot of notice really. i mean what er, what she put was that o okay wasn't it? i know, but the paper rosie! and no address just a on it! notepad with all holes in the top. well never mind. never mind. but i, i really do apologize about it but she has done it erm well it's not, not your fault is it, you know? i feel, to sa to spite me. mm. ooh! i was most upset when i saw it. yes. well never mind anyway. it doesn't matter at all. but carl had said there was some problems there mm. or something. erm she's she's most but peculiar. is she younger or older? oh no she's older. oh. she's the eldest of the family. perhaps and perhaps sh shouldn't suggest these things, but perhaps she's going a bit off it or something . i don't know, really. erm you see when my other sister died, ada, i mean, arthur and i, we did all the organization didn't we gordon? mm. i mean, and we were going down every day to see her when she was yeah. poorly. now she came at the bitter end and she never did anything. no. you know, and then she starts moaning! mm. this is the trouble with families int it? you get, you get i'm afraid it is. all these things and mm. yeah, i don't know. it's very difficult sometimes. my mum er, doesn't know, in fact he's not replied yet, uncle stan he's her youngest brother mhm. and he's a lovely person, he's full of fun and everything but he, he's one of these he always says he's coming and never comes. yes. so, they live near hull. and erm er, when aunt, aunty may, you know, is blind, my mum's sister mm mm. and he's always saying, he's going to see her and he never does. and er he just, he said he was coming to erm my uncle les' funeral but he never turned up. no. and, so i'll be very surprised if he comes. yes. but, there's nothing wrong there between us, but no. he's just like yeah. that you see. well you see erm i mean when, when gordon and i got married er, my sister's husband didn't come to the wedding until later on did he gordon? because no. he was, he wouldn't give up his saturday work you see. oh ! he's er most peculiar. now when elaine yeah. got married mm. then they never let me know, and as you know, er it, it costs money to sort of er, put a meal on course it does. erm irene turned up on her own! and i said well where's harold? she said oh he's got a cold. and that was the end of it wasn't it? yeah. yeah. so it's, he doesn't like going to these dos, i'm sure of it, you know. mm. but nevertheless, erm oh i don't know. families! yeah. you can choose your friends but not your family rosie. oh i know. mm mm. so i hope your mother and father don't think we're all like that er, rosie. oh no! the they never said a word about it, at all. and, and we just said er i just think it's they weren't coming and that was it. just think it's heights of bad manners what she's done! well at least she replied. i mean she could have done nothing oh yes. like that and oh yes. i mean, you know she could have not bothered after all. is carl coming straight home tonight do you know rosie? mm. oh. yeah. he's good. taking me and dropping me off oh is he? at the theatre, yeah. mm. right. what are you going to see? les miserables. oh i, do you know ire i, d'ya know rosie i don't fancy that. well i don't really, but erm, because er re er my friend amy asked me if i wanted to go, she's er, the secretary of a, a club and they mm. er, they do block bookings mm. and i said i really don't fancy it. i don't know why, but david has been to see it several times he thought it was really good. is the one that's pronounced like les miserables,le les miserables? yes, that's right. mm. mm. it's les about the revolution. miserables. yes . something like that is it? i think that's what puts me off is the title. but i believe yeah. that i believe the beginning, i was reading a letter in the paper and this person had been to see it mm. and they said the beginning she's, she's sat there and she said oh wha what have i come to this for? but she said oh dear! once it got going oh! right. she said it was absolutely marvellous. oh right. but i've heard good reports mm mm. so far but it, this is a, it's a school booking, it's lorraine's children yes. and er it was booked before christmas was it really? yeah. i forgot. yeah. good lor! i, i'd booked in at my health er club tonight. oh! oh dear rosie! and er, i think it only struck me on saturday and i tho i too i was in the car car with carl and oh no! oh dear! and he says what's the matter now? i mean, oh god ! don't give me any more problems ! yeah. oh dear! right . we went to er on friday, did carl tell you? no. at goosetree, er where sue lives. no. geoff is erm oh he's raising money for a playing, a field for the children aha. in the village there. yes. and he'd organized this erm professional theatre company it was, to come yes. and erm it was blood brothers. oh i, d'ya know i really fancy that! ooh it's good isn't it? i believe so. really good! yeah. yes. yes. yeah. only five of them but they were brilliant! and yes. er it was sold out, you know, and everybody, and people had been ringing up thanking them and everything. oh that's lovely isn't it? well, well, we both really enjoyed it, you yeah. know. good. mm. i know amy went to see it when it was at the palace, i'm talking about a few years ago, mm. and erm, and she said oh i you know, i would have said it was really good! i don't know why i didn't go that time. yeah. yeah. but, i really fancy that. yeah. mm. mm. oh i'm glad you went, i'm glad it was a success bec and the surname of karen. did they they er write that last night? they brought the letter. well it was wri it was written down there, you know, but er he didn't take it with him. so er he's posting the letter now. so she should get it tomorrow and er, everything should be alright. are you going ou are you going with kevin tonight? i said i'd phone me up. right. wait a and see what he does. well i'd forgotten that you were going out and i ma i was going to make a chilli. what do you think? i don't know. well you can make it a be bit of extra one can't you? always eat it up if i don't go. i wi oh yes. no, i was thinking that if you were going you wouldn't want to eat it. not really, no. i could do you an omelette though couldn't i? i'm not that bothered, i, i'll wait and see how we, he might phone up and say cancel it, you know, cos elaine's got headache or summat, you never know. no. do you? no, no. i mean i never i never bank on anything like that until the ha the moment practically. no. what was it like this morning, the traffic? not, oh it was bad, it were it were, well, well stood up all traffic certainly. but er, you know where the road branched and yes. talbot road and so on. bad up to there. cos you were just a few minutes later this morning. no! i was a er i was on the it was er, before eight before i it was only two minutes to eight when i was er down the road at the was it? lights. oh! perhaps it was with the weather being so bad. well i were there at twenty five to. so i mean, and er, it's not that bad is it? no. twenty to anyway, gone twenty to when i was at, it took forty minutes. i think it's going to be nice for this weekend. it says the erm, this low is go is moving away and a high's coming in so it might be nice for this weekend. just go to the van. good. i hope so anyhow. we'd like to get away. wouldn't you? yeah. could have just done with tomorrow in. that would have been a day tomorrow. well well if i'd have got to see him he might have said something, but i don't like going and saying do you want me again now or owt you know? ah no, i think if he wanted you he would have come to you, don't you? mhm. see the e the headmaster's wife see another fella to early retirement last year and they've let him go back on supply. ah! and so he's there quite a lot. and another fella come in one suj one subject and he's been there most of time, you know. yes. there were like three hanging about. yes. three extra. and there's only seven off today. yeah. cos there's thirteen last week. yeah. so they could cope really. aye. you know, i'll see, still, not much chance of that now. was talking tommy there? no he wasn't called in today. two talking tommys, neither of them were there. oh. what about frank? no? no he wasn't there either. oh! so you were lucky to be in today really wasn't you? oh yes. it was er well it all helps. fancy get a few more days after easter i'll be alright. well perhaps you will gordon. so i might get a phone call from somewhere, you know. cos he said there'd be something else. he said yes. mind you, he phoned you late last time. it was about seven o'clock weren't it? oh i know, yeah. yeah. i keep thinking it's monday today. yes i do, but with being back first day. mm. mm. aye. i thought we, we'd go down to ken's on thursday. fine. but i'm wondering how to go on it being election day. oh yes! well what,, what difference don't make a diff would ma that make? don't make any difference i mean to you. we'd be we'd go and vote but if ken wanted to sit in and watching the good results coming in well no, the results won't be in till the night gordon. the er, the polling stations don't close till nine o' clock. no. no. but, you know, they talk about it all day don't they? well i'm sure he doesn't want to to do that. well what i'll do i'll give him a call tomorrow night about eight o'clock. yes. cos i don't wanna phone tonight no cos he might say tomorrow. cos they'll be,whe ah well they might, you know you never know if you get a phone call from a school do you? no, that's right. if i, if i don't get one tonight the only chance is early in the morning. yes. if er nowt comes here in the morning well i can phone him tomorrow night. fancy that ba fancy that insurance, did you, was it a receipt you wanted back? no i, i, i, i wrote, well they haven't given us any bloody receipts that bloody firm! but, they should do. and er i sent out a letter asking for erm contents insurance yes. and i listed all the items yes. and they come to twelve hundred or a thousand quid, or twelve hund twelve hundred i think. the telly and our microwave you know, and i wanted, well i wanted a price for the cont insuring of them. yes. and they, the company wrote back and said it's so much a policy and looks reasonable and i sent them a bloody cheque you see yes. and i'm covered. well it so those things are not covered yet? no, well not really are they? because it, it, it only covers the bloody van! oh heck! i know that. because on the form it's got if anything else you need to, just pho pho contact us. i'd write them a snotty letter if i was you! well how much does it cost to phone up? i don't know. bloody aberdeen! well and yo we i don't know really gordon. yeah but just phone up and just be on for more, more than a minute, you know, wouldn't be so bad but you start hanging about. well just say that to her, it's a long distance and er, will you, will you call me back on this number? yeah. i could do. well i mean er, a bit er, i'm a bit concerned now that they're er er, they're not covered with the insurance. well i am as well. you see people sa some people say oh well your ou your house contents covers it but does it? but i, i can't see it be i can't see it doing that. did i say that? i've heard it from various sources, but i don't think it's true. oh i don't i think they're a right bloody problem! oh i, i had er i mean if it's twenty quid a year or summat like that i'll pay it you know. i'm not paying a bloody hell of a lot! oh no. well, i mean, there's a, not a lot in the van really is there? i mean it's er no. it's mostly the telly and the microwave. yeah. and the bedding. i know. i mean e ne and really and, it's only like two sleeping bags and a duvet isn't it? yeah. i put twelve hundred quid's worth down because when you tot it all up and your cutlery and so yeah. forth. cutlery and yes. all your pans and your ba yeah. and your, and your yes. vacuum cleaner. oh yes, i've forgotten about that. and your lawn strimmer and your garden furniture. yeah. yes. yes. you know, you've got quite it soon mounts up. you've got quite, it does. mm. it mounts up to over a thousand quid. yeah. yes it does. yes i'd forgotten about all that. and the radio. yes. ornaments. glasses. glasses. drink. drink. yeah. it's quite an item. yes it is. and the food that you leave there. yeah. you know er tinned food and so yes it does mount up, you're quite right. you know, cost to replace vac, hundred quid! oh i know. oh i know it does. yeah. two fifty for a telly, a hundred for a, a, a hundred at least for a microwave. a hundred and fifty now. yes. there's five hundred. and then your radio. and that's three items. yes. then your radio and then you've got your yeah. lawnmower. your lawnmower. that's right. yeah. and your another se garden furniture. another seventy five. mm. yes. yes it does soon mount up. yeah. and how much are blankets now? ooh god! yes. they're quite you know. expensive. and duvets. and it's hundred pound for a duvet. i think twelve you know. hundred quid's putting it on the light side. you've yeah. gotta replace everything new. they have got a liberty though not writing back! but it certainly is been, i've written it on the back of the, the cheque stub when it was cashed because she, she mm. looked it up on the er, on the computer for me. i'll write a letter instead i think. ya. she's brought erm, ida's brought the wedding present over. has she? she said we're very pleased she said to er receive the invitation. so i said, well we would have liked you to come to the full erm onty i said, but, unfortunately we were in a a very awkward position. she said oh we didn't expect to come to the evening do. you know so i said oh well i'm pleased that you can. so then she was asking me you know, what i'd bought. so i ha i felt obliged to show her you know. she liked the dress did she? oh yes, she thought it was lovely. mm. so just avoided the heavy rain. mm. dear oh innit? god! it's been terrible! re you know, when we first got up it was glorious. i know. i thought this is, i thought fancy going to work on a nice day like i know. this. i thought ooh, i'll get something done in the garden today. yeah. and blow me! it started to rain it started what and never stopped. what time? about eleven o'clock this morning? yes. but not before dinner. oh! it was long before dinner. it was about ten o'clock, ten o'clock to half past round here was it? when it started. yeah. and then it eased up a bit at dinner time and then it started again about two o'clock. and i'd just got in at about oh half three. ooh! and it, the heavens opened. well that, i couldn't believe it when it fell over this morning. i know. it just went at like slow motion . lying on the table it was. fortunately on the table and the cov that cover was on. it didn't break the tops. i know. mm. it's top heavy. mm. it's with i put it going over you see. mm. see and it hasn't got a balance at the back, you see, the leaves are not big enough at the back. no. where if they would have grown bigger the erm, it would have balanced it. mm. anyhow it's alright now. and i put extra compost in and, but it's erm i know, it's still very er dodgy. i think perhaps when they open up fully, the flowers, it'll er perhaps balance a bit better. yeah. oh dear . what do you think? please yourself. well or eat some of it otherwise you'll get an air lock won't you? i mean there's another hour. two hours innit? what time did he say? half seven, it's half five. oh it's half five. yes of course it's two hours. oh e eat, eat that gordon. will curry do me any harm after this? will it bums! don't have to eat it all if you don't want. picking me at half past seven tonight love. oh yeah. yes. and then we'll go for a drink first and then we'll go to the indian restaurant. right. our carl wanted to know what, why you were going? did he? yeah. what did he say? he said oh, he said, what are they celebrating? i said nothing! well he said well it seems funny they're going out doesn't it? well i said, well as far as i know, i said nothing, they're not celebrating anything. should have said to him, you never take dad out for a curry so kevin's going. tt. oh gordon! he has taken you out. yeah, about four years ago? you're very ungrateful! well he's taken us out when they've been to bloody shop working and come back and wa i admitted that, but i mean just to go out for an evening. i mean, he never says to me go and have a, do you wanna go for a pint or wanna go for a curry or owt does he? no. well we don't see him much now do we? well, i'm not, i'm not bothered about it. it doesn't worry me. well who wants to go out with a doddery old bugger like me anyway! surprised kevin wants to, surprised kevin wants to go. well it's could go on to the rugby and go with them couldn't he? well eh? yeah. instead of a doddering old bugger like who's miserable! well well he hasn't got a father so he regards you doesn't he? if you wanna take it that way. if if labour say get in if labour get in and they can't fulfil their promises yes. like john smith's made promises then that conservatives haven't done this, that and the other, he must be able to do them now mustn't he? who must? john smith. well erm, they, they don't know whether they can do it or not do they? no, but he's criticizing the conservative policies and all that, and what we will do is this. i know for investment yes but they all say that industry don't they until they get into power? i know. and the and then they all they do. back down. they do. yeah. they'll say they, they probably haven't got the finances to back up what they what they said they would do. yeah but a lo a lot of quotes gonna be made to them after aren't there? you know, like you said this and you haven't done it, you said that and you haven't done it and all that sort of. yes but once they're in power there's nothing you well can do about it. oh admittedly no. no. but they must feel a bit stupid to er well i can't well i mean there's an awful lot, i mean would, no, no matter which political party it is, they all make promises, but they don't carry them all out. no. course not. but i mean these are, these are major things. getting the economy right. now john smith but er well john may have we'll get the economy right. now if he doesn't get the economy right he's gonna end up with egg on his face and of course he is. but you tell me how just how is he going to do it? i mean, ee, they don't explain to you how they're going to do it do they? no. they, they just come out wi a er with statements. glibly with these, these statements. mm. mm. i'm sure that e e if there is an easy way of doing it the conservatives would have found out and done it. i don't think there's any any easy way. i don't see how they're going to do it. no. i really don't. i mean where are they going, where are they going to get the extra money from er to pay for the old aged pensioners' er eight pound rise? mm. or so they say, we'll get eight pound. somebody's got to pay for it. so it'll be the working people, er, probably the the national er, health stamp'll have to go, go up. it'll be a sorry day if they get in. it will gordon. oh! i don't know. you're a real turncoat you are. mm. aren't you? mm. i was listening today to erm a man on the radio and he was only thirty four and he had a stroke and they were saying he, they er, they were asking him, they said well how did it happen? they said, did you have any warning? and he said no. none at all he said. i was gardening and he said er er i bent over to do something and he said i just went dizzy, he said, and i fell over he said and then i realized my right side was paralysed. and he said i was completely confused and i couldn't, he said i was trying to shout my wife and erm and, er, you know my mouth wouldn't work, he said, but she said fortunately she looked through the window and er found him and they took him to hospital. and they were saying, they were saying that, you know, you associate strokes with older people, but there's a hundred young people a week have strokes! tt. aye. and he said erm like it's the clots to your brains that erm that cause it, you know. they said, well did you have any warning about it? and he said er, no, he said i didn't think i had he said, but now, he said i realized that how i, was forgetting er i'd be talking and i'd forget sort of what i was just talking about that split second. mm. and now the stroke has affected him that way. he can be talking, say about a well, you know, about any er, about sa say a, a video recorder or something like that mm. and for a minute he can forget that he's talking about it. mm. you know, but erm he sa he's recovered reasonably well in the same, you know, but got his use very back? er, partly back. partly back. not fully. you know. thirty four! i know! i mean you just don't you don't imagine that do you really? no. it's terrible! but a hundred young people a week! i mean, i, i couldn't believe it when they were saying that. that's terrible! it is. it's an awful thing. see i've never, i've never across anyone that like know you. what do you mean? well i've known anyone to be five years and no use whatsoever. ah well, and aun i mean aunty lilly was like that gordon. she never got her use back and she never spoke again. yeah but she didn't, well she didn't live long after her stroke did she? oh she did, you know. er, not as mind, she was in bed all the time. oh she was in bed all the time. yes. how long did she live after the stroke? only months weren't it? oh no! oh no! it wasn't months gordon. no. i mean she was in park hospital for so long and then she was transferred to a nursing home in thornton. er do yo don't you remember us ta taking iris and ian down to see her? i didn't see her did i? no we didn't go in, but iris and ian did. did he? yes. well i, i, we, i, i drove them there. you was with me. yeah? yes! well i reckon she lived er a couple of years after the stroke gordon. i mean, and she was in a terrible, i mean she couldn't even speak! no. i mean, er erm and i went to see her in park hospital and she was very frustrat very frustrated because she couldn't speak. no. what was she doing in park hospital? she took ill at aunty edith's. well was it edith's? yeah. i th i think they'd been on holiday and, she took ill on the holiday and, and came erm, she was stopping at erm, edith's and er it happened then. well, you know, i can't recall any of this. yes. did we, we go to edith's to see her then did we not? no, but i went to park hospital to see her. because edith now edith was going away for some unknown reason, i don't know, she must have been going on another holiday anyhow. no, she was in park hospital a long time. that was it, because edith was going on another holiday and she was er, she wanted someone to go and visit er lilly, and i said well i'll go. and i, i, it was when i had my own car and i drove there. and i wanted to see her. she was very, very frustrated cos she couldn't speak. mm! and she couldn't write anything down. i don't think you saw her actually. i don't think i did. i never recall seeing her when she was ill. never. no. no. well you must have been going during the day while i was at work then. no, it was night time i went, cos i was working. well why in the bloody hell i didn't go then? why didn't i go with you? i don't know. was it night school or something like that, or what? i don't know. i think you we d'ya know i think you were at night school gordon when i think about it. i think you were teaching at night school. it must have been something i was doing. no! i know why gordon. because the ba the children were small. yo one of us had to stay in. oh yes. aye, that's right. of course, yes. you know, i mean, they were only small. aye, that's right. did we live in ashton lane then? erm no, we were here. were we? yes. well i didn't have my own car in ashton lane. no you didn't. that's right. so we was here. well, about nineteen seventy then, seventy one. no you got your licence in erm was it, it were early in the year when you passed your test? yes i think it was. well it were seventy one. mm. cos didn't you phone me at lillycups to tell me? yes i think i did. yes. yes. well i was only at lillycups from august seventy till august seventy one. yes. only a year. and if you phoned me early in the year it must have been just after we got the v w. yes. i think it was. just a couple so of months after we got that i think it was because er th cos we'd got iris' er er triumph didn't we? that's right. yes. soon after that. yes. i think we did gordon. and you were driving that about. that's right. that's right. well carl hadn't passed and you went, you went in that triumph did you to the i did. yes. well it's ser te it was later than seventy one you see. mm. and you had that car about two years didn't you? oh yes. perhaps a bit longer. two years? yeah. because i came, i came to er dellasel yeah. when carl passed his er, to m g s. yeah. do you remember? yeah . blimey! do you mean, must be about twenty years ago then? yes. yeah about twenty. this is why you know, i, i think you should keep di i keep diaries from years ago because i know you don't like nostalgia, and i don't, but it's interesting mm mm. to look up. yes. er, events. yes. i mean i've got no diaries dating back that long. no, i know. well i haven't. i have no record of anything no. happening then. no. but just one line of things that you know, i don't mean a diary where you write a page every night, but just two lines you know. yeah. all, and what you did and when i got the car, the date and when you got that triumph then. yeah. you know, little, just a line. and then when you look at it er ca you can recall then oh yes. other things. that's right. the one line sort of sets it all off, you can remember. that's right. yeah. mm. yes but i remember, i can remember edith phoning me and, and saying, you know she was going away, you know is, you know could i go down? and i said yes. mm. i, cos i remember coming, coming back, i got lost. you know where er that circle is where there's the shops, well instead of taking i know, instead of taking one road i took another and i got completely lost! mm. mm. i wouldn't now, but then i, i, i didn't know er round that area. no that's right really, i mean if you don't know the area you don't know which road to take on the islands. i know. but i mean, you wouldn't have thought that ed er lilly, i mean, she had no weight on her or anything like no. that did she? no. she's always been active all her life. all, been active all her life. no, you can't understand how these things happen. well they give you all these bloody tips and papers about what to do, to avoid this and avoid that. and what to eat and everything but this bloody footballer, i mean it's a i know! a really fit man. i know. he's, er, one artery was seventy percent blocked, it was in the paper. yeah. and the other artery was ninety percent blocked. was it really? yeah! yeah! good god! i mean, he could have gone an any time. graham sounness, i mean he's only thirty eight! could have gone any time with with nothing through his bloody arteries! good god! but that's incred i didn't know it was that bad. it was in the paper this morning. and er goodness me! well he's a, he, he didn't smoke. no. he was an athlete. he's been an athlete. he obviously ate like everybody else. mm. and he i mean wasn't overweight in any way. wasn't overweight, what more no. the bloody hell do you have to do! that's incredible that! see they say it was a ma it's hereditary. well cos his father had a bypass didn't he? oh did he? i think some other relative died er oh. youngish. yes. oh well i bet, i think perhaps it is really. i know. it's still going? i know. yeah, and you can't, you can't understand it can you really? well look at the old lady that walks past here at ninety one! that's right, yeah. yeah. and she does all her own shopping. mm. you know, i mean, she keeps stopping but she's, she's remarkable! she really is. mm. but they're few and far between aren't they? when th you're like that. yeah. mm. but what i couldn't understand with this soun this fella that this sounness? aye. he, he found out cos he went for, to, for a check up and they took his blood pressure. yes. and tha well lots of people go and have blood pressure taken, they find it's high, and they yes. give them tablets. yes. go home. why did they take it a stage further with him? he'd got high blood pressure, he wasn't in any pain he's living a normal life. similar to what i was when i went. yes. and they just give me tablets. yes. now why, what made them take it to the stage well er well, first where, he wanted a heart bypass? first and foremost he was in a private scheme. well,pro probably that's it then. yeah. a and probably because i because of his father and er the rela the other relative having the bypasses done. so they took it mm. a step further, but i think probably, it's because he was in er er a private scheme. very likely innit? yes. so there's a lot of people walking about with just taking bloody tablets who probably really should have a by bypass. ah well i, well,i wouldn't say that really gordon. i mean i think er, when your blood pressure was found out and you'd been taking tablets ever, so, i think it's kept it all under control and you've, you, we eat a sensible diet. the only, the only er thing i complained about with you is, is the butter. mm. i don't have that much now. but i think everything in moderation, but you don't eat as much butter now as what you used to. i don't eat that much bread you see. no. so i, i think really, and i think what i think with him, i think definitely i think it must be the private scheme and plus that his own family, it runs in the family. mm mm. must be hell of a shock being told oh god! it must have been. see how much it's costing? two hundred and fifty pounds a night! yeah. phworgh! that's without the operation. yeah. well he earned three hundred and fifty thousand a year then. oh i know. and plus he's, he, he, he, he married an heiress you know. did he? er him er,sh they live in spain now. oh er he, he's worth a pretty penny is sounness. he went in carl's shop the other, the other week. did he? yes! mm. must have been looking for a house. carl said he, he looked er well er, his face did, it were very he's got a very poxy skin. has he? you kno mm. yes. he was having it done this afternoon weren't he? yeah. some time today. aye. i tell you what, that's quick int it though gordon? with only going in last night and mm. having it done today. it is indeed. we i wonder how quick they would have got him in though if he wouldn't have been in a private scheme. he could wait six months couldn't he? well he could have been dead by then. well er, yeah,e exactly that's what they're moaning about int it? terrible! put them on a list and wait. i've never heard so much talk about health as we do nowadays. oh i know. when i was young i co i don't remember talking all the time about bloody health and what you should do and what you shouldn't do. no i know. okay? now what we try and do is to put into sectors. mhm. so what we'll look at and say right, how many are going there, how many are going there. right there's enough parcels to make a nice little round so and she does that round. yeah. got another lady that goes to those two bits. another lady she'll have that, you see. so we look at the rounds as being twenty to thirty parcels a day give or take. some day it might be a bit less other days it will be more thirty umm but on an average we like to work out the girls to about thirty to twenty five a day. which, when you look at it into time and money, yes we pay forty pence flat a parcel but the girls can go out, once they, once they know their area, they know the roads and they know where they are they can go out and probably do about twenty parcels an hour. when you forty pee it's like eight pounds yeah it's a lot of money per hour. that's right. work. that's it. mm. so, you work it out take home an hour but to be realistic you've gotta take petrol out of it. so let's just say, six pounds and costs because every day you know mm. you're using your car. that's it. and you might be buying a sandwich, something like that so realistically should be able to come out presuming twenty parcels in about an hour then get about five pounds. that's realistically. yeah. er obviously when you first start and kim found this as well, when she first started well she said she, well let's be honest, she really hated it yes. she was going, she didn't know where she was that's right. taking up most of her day. and then it just depended, it's up to you to get yourself so if you know you're going, well say i was doing hayes. if i was going to see a friend in hayes i would be crazy not to deliver parcel on the way. that's right. but it's why do two journeys. yeah. people do fit it in around themselves. umm we get some people, when i went to see kim, d'you know where this is. oh yeah i know where all my roads are. and you don't, i mean you think you do. but it's a case of, i've seen that mhm. you know and it gets really frustrating. and like kim'll be the first one to say she gave up after a few months mm. yeah. and said no, i can't do it. then, she thought about it realised. and said oh i did all the hard bit cos she did christmas and remember that snow! snow, yeah. she said really she did all the hard work, and then it became easier. mhm. and, she's taken back on and she's okay now. yeah i mean when i saw her round the park she said oh i'm really enjoying it this i really felt for her actually in the snow. you know it's, it's the money i mean why is anybody doing anything that's it. i mean however much you like doing something you wouldn't do it if you did it for nothing. no. no when you've got kids unless you're unless you go back to work properly yeah. you're earning a lot of money yeah. you can't really, there's no point in childminding and nannies because your earnings yeah. well you've got to be able to earn double, treble yeah. to make it w-, to make it, to make it worthwhile. yeah. and if you make the conscious decision to stay at home then yeah. i mean i've stayed at home for nearly four years now. yes. cos i'm not suddenly gonna to say to somebody now that's it. started school that's right. i enjoy it too much. does he go every afternoon or no. just two afternoons a week. when do they start him at school? umm he won't be going to school until till next one. yeah.. yeah i mean he could go, he could go every day all day but umm don't enjoy it so i mean i enjoy it too much. especially if he's i mean it's an ideal job you'd be able to fit a round in and do what you want to do. mhm. yes. now the payments are, are different. i mean you do get more than forty pee to do a parcel. what we do is we pay grattan forty pence across the board. yeah. there's no specific time for delivery, that's where the bulk of the work is so if we're talking an average round being twenty five parcels a day between grattan and next directory. right. now those next directory customers, they pay for a delivery service whereas with like the grattan and it's free you don't they pay for delivery and we guarantee that they will get forty eight hour delivery service yeah i've got a next directory. oh well you know the system yourself then, don't you? yeah. now what we'll do is, we can actually get it down to . we'll get it to kim a day before it's due mhm. so on a tuesday she'll get next for wednesday, wednesday for thursday etcetera. so it gives her a little bit of leeway. and what we say is as you know yourself you then have an am pm or an early evening call mhm umm an am and a pm during the week cos that's just like the grattan. mhm. if it's an evening then we'll pay you sixty pee to do that. but what we do say is if kim's got a wednesday evening and it's only one, she's only got one mhm. what we'll say to you is that you got that parcel on tuesday so it's up to you really. why don't you get rid of it and give that customer a twenty four hour delivery service mm. and please yourself. so as long as the next directory is done early at all times you still get your sixty pee even if you do do it in the day. during the day . or if you leave it with a neighbour then we've got a calling card to say thought you might like it early mm. mm, mm then , mm then they can't really. no. umm but if the neighbour will take it sign the receipt but that's fine. so again if we do say that the next directory , umm you can still suit yourself. yeah i mean my stuff's always on the last but i never seen no. he comes out and does the next in the evenings because a lot of it umm linda goes and does all her grattan. yeah three or four children so yeah. yes. i've never seen her she probably, she will come round and do the day. she'll probably do all the grattan. it's just the way they, they, they found it easier umm yeah. he'll probably come out maybe he does shifts maybe he's around so, what we say is that the more things are eight until twelve . umm it's monday to friday with grattan and next together, we do actually umm deliver on saturdays for just next. right. and for that we'll pay the girls a retainer if you like to deliver from one customer to thirteen customers on that saturday. if they get one customer they get ten pounds but if they're unlucky enough to get thirteen they get ten pounds . ten pounds . if they get any more than thirteen customers which is highly unlikely unless there's a sale on then we'll get them we'll give them twenty five pence per customer on top. i see. and if they come to collect and return because we run a return service as well yes. then we pay them forty pee to collect and return to . if they return, if their collecting the grattan of next returns all week it's . right. the return system, we, we say to the girls they must come back but they're to be incorporated within the round. so they'll either phone grattan or phone next and it will come on what we call manifests, the green sheet you sign yeah. is what we call a manifest. and on that it will say an r for return or whatever and give the girls instructions as to where to go to pick umm , to pick yes, yes . yes. it's nice when you can do the two together yes. because it's less bother then, you don't have to come back again. so it it it gives, gives, gives the girls a lot of different sort of ways break it up, fit it in and and i'm making it sound very nice but when you first start it is horrendous, it really is. and you, you get these parcels what we do is we map our route out. then we know numbers on the parcels, one twenty the one you get is the one and it's a lot better i know i've seen road somewhere or you know it's a lot easier well, like what? i dunno. make me a cup of coffee if you're busy or something or no, i'll make the coffee. or umm i bought us some brackets. oh did you? where you, where you said. jean how much? i got them in umm you know in penge it was payless wasn't it? where you turn left for janet's it was on the right. yeah. yes, yeah i think so. no it's do it all now. oh. that's smith's isn't it, w h smith's. mhm. six pounds for five. oh well. so. i think i need some more than that but that's all i had, the six pounds. oh good. well. these aren't bra-, these aren't really, they're shelf brackets. that's what they're meant for. oh yes but they-, they're similar to what we've got holding that butter smaller because of the width of the shelves. they're half the price of hanging basket oh. hooks. well. and that's what i've bought before. yeah, well what's the difference? i mean you don't need the size do you? and the basket's the thing. oh good. i bought two small ones because i think i've got two small baskets. so oh good. so i've got five. one two three four five. there's one in the garage i'm sure there was one left over in the garage. i think you said there was. so that's six. what? oh! the expensive watch. it looks nice doesn't it? yeah. i thought mummy was gonna keep it? well, she said let me more than welcome but umm well when she came home it was in the suede pouch and she said well here y'are, here's you're watch, you know. so i tried it and i thought, well wearing it. it looks nice dunnit? mhm. it's leather so i . genuine leather. smith's move but made in hong kong. is it battery? yeah. well it looks nice dunnit? mhm. looks bigger than umm cos mummy had it with her when you came down on saturday. oh, did she? it looks bigger than umm bigger than you well when she put it on, didn't look that big. but when did i see it first then? right. i must have been at, well i'm sure it was at home. yeah but i think she wasn't sure what she was gonna do. no she said there you are, there's something for you. she op-, give us the umm after-, aftershave and deodorant which we said were the cheapest. and er oh eau de toi- whatever. so she said well you know, at least i buy aramis for johnny and for you so the two purchases are not just to get the watch. and she er, i said oh. and umm i think she was undecided what she was gonna do. i think may-, you know she thought maybe she might have kept it for an occasion ohh. or something. anyway, she umm pond needs cleaning out again as well. does it? she said to the woman umm i don't know, like is there any panic or , so she said well we've had quite a, only got five left. mummy said how long, she said well while the watches last. i've only got five left. but i don't know how many they had. not six i wouldn't have thought, or ten you know i dunno but umm never know do you? and, what was funny in the ad it didn't say where. oh didn't it? no maybe it was everywhere then. well yes. so umm anyway. cos normally they'll say like selfridges or harrods or well i mean said she got them in dickens but she said selfridges would be favourite probably. but umm anyway. maybe they were doing it everywhere. mm. cos sometimes they'll say just house of fraser stores or yeah, yeah debenhams or something. i er d'you wanna sandwich? not particularly. d'you? no. i don't fancy one. d'you wanna biscuit or something? umm yeah i'll have a biscuit please. ohh. there's a film for you. oh lovely, thank you. neither here nor there but twenty four. oh okay. doesn't matter does it? well, anything's better than nothing. yeah, so that's a twenty four, i mean you can have another twenty four next . i dunno i just grabbed it and umm ooh. you can always get some more i would think. ah. well as he said well he didn't say but i mean it's just a question of him putting them in the post. how sensitive is the mike? i'm not sure really. picks up the telly. d'you wanna look at these? mm. what d'you reckon she looks like joan simms? that's what she she said current, current joan simms that is. yeah, not carry on films joan simms. no. that's how crowded it was. uhum! deserted innit? and i don't know why these didn't come out terribly maybe because it was stormy and cloudy or whatever but, still. mm it is cloudy innit? mm. i think that's where there was a storm brewing. dark aren't they? mm. and that, well that was so nice and i didn't know quite what that'd go, i just took that, that was the arrangement in the, in the foyer. that looks nice dunnit? they're those things that uncurl, aren't they? these. anthurium they are. are they? they sort of uncurl don't they? mm. south african thing. that's the thing i didn't know about, and didn't ask anybody. mhm. there. .saying what's that, what's that so i took, i walked, i walked down and took a photograph of it. mhm. that looks like a cross between a orchid and a gladioli. dunnit? mhm. that's from the verandah. mhm. lovely innit? that's the park. and well i dunno if i took a continuity one round to the left. probably looking down i think, probably. well that's umm oh that's, is that similar? well that's sort of like, yes it's like that, yeah. mhm. there's the tennis courts and you can see the beginning of, and the beaches round the corner. and this was san key park. mhm. and that's the can you see it there, or is it that one. oh yeah as close as that that's the dreaded bridge. oh is it. and you come over the bridge and the toll's this side of it. so it was, an entrance to the park was here and the entrance to the hotel is there oh so that's how close we were when we had the blow out thing. thought i had a puncture today. well not cos i felt like it but i was at the lights in bromley this bloke, this, was stand-, sort of kept staring at my front passenger side wheel. he sort of walked away, he was staring like this oh. but umm i sort of drove on for a bit and thought it feels alright and then when i got to that, you know b p petrol station, i pulled in and got out and had a look. i thought maybe i've got a puncture and i can't feel it or something sticking out of it or something but couldn't see anything. he didn't say anything he was just like, but i mean he was really close. he was like as close as that and he was really staring and he wasn't staring at the road cos as i went on a few feet he stared at the car again. and, but he didn't sort of point and say anything. i don't think we've got anything particularly unusual about our hubcaps or well if they were really sort of amazing hubcaps then yeah. but they're not. strange. . so nothing er well i had a look and i couldn't see anything. i mean he for him to see it walking along the road if there was anything. i mean it's driving alright and i couldn't see anything sticking out of it. strange one again, but that's when, when i tried to get the lightning. oh. that's when it was all happening. and that's a crowded beach. lovely sand isn't it? mhm. that's where they set up the umm these things for these oh yeah these, these people that use the conference rooms, you know? mhm. cos that was st petersberg catholic ladies guild or something and another day it was something like i b m or whatever you know. they run it rather like what sort of time was that? umm, do you reckon ? middling, late afternoon. no-one there at all is there? no. that's the . we were sort of waiting for the sunset thing. that's, this was, oh i dunno what time it was, between seven and eight. there's the swimming pool. that's pretty innit? those palm trees are so funny the way the grow straight up. mm. mm. there's the beach again. hmm. there's that drinks thing where you sit all round on the high stalls you know oh yeah. the nice innit? umm this was sort of in clear water, getting in more to clear water. tried to get it all in. that was a s-, i dunno what it was, some permanent waterfall come mini golf thing. it was a sort of what you call public council grounds i suppose you know. mmm. nice innit. mmm. that's, well just across the sunset. oh that's lovely. there's another one of the, well this was, that was cloudy. where is that? from your room? umm no no, sort of, i think it was, wait a minute. no, i dunno where that, i can't remember. could have been on that boardwalk thing that we spoke about just across the road. mm. no it couldn't be cos that's the gulf where the sun goes down. oh yes that's right, yeah. don't remember offhand. there's the cabana things on the beach. hm. mummy had this thing about these, i don't know what you'd call them, pelicans i'd no, not pelicans, what do they call them? flamingoes! but not pink. i managed to get one in flight. they weren't, one or two seemed to hang around that thing where they used to throw out food to them. what, in the hotel? in the grounds, yeah. oh yeah used to walk around. ugh. god! what? oh they'd freak me out they would. really? umm they're big, aren't they? we-ell. yeah well they're not like pigeons are they? skinny,weigh about a pound and an half i would think that's all. yeah but they're about three foot tall or something. ugh oh yes. god! er paul again. cabanas. so what are they, white flamingoes? yeah white and very, very skinny. they are flamingoes, not herons or something? well, i don't know. i just don't know what they are. but we didn't see any pink flamingoes. they're not as big as the, don't know what they are, could be herons as you say. these other things are just like pterodactyls. the umm with the big bill you know. that scoop the fish out. what pelicans. yeah. they keep them all under there. mhm. the one's that are in st james's park. oh, that was from the bus. yeah, we were back here. this way. and this is on the bus going in to clearwater on the free trolley as they call it. oh i know. that was, i got it on the coach quite a nice thing mhm. over the bridge and into clearwater proper. er there's one of the things in full swing. oh yeah . now we drove up the road and looked at some of these, they're condominiums and a sort of chalet type places. i stopped and mummy said, cor that'll be lovely, should take one of that. and they're they are. there's a public access down to the beach and i just turned round and took it and there's these places that you rent you know? mhm. with the, there's the beach as you can see i mean it's it's lovely innit? right there you know. that'd be nice if we all went together a lot with oliver wouldn't it? oh yeah yeah wonderful. no-one's got to go very far to take him down to the beach. and we had a little drive to er what was it called fast eddy's. supposed to be quite well known. and it was a place where one of these boats went well one of those ones from the lunch, lunch on board you know. oh that's nice. and there's the one before it left. and we were there when it left. and there's a walk. a walk along with all the expensive yachts and all that round there you know you sort of approach it and walk along up here and mhm. get the, this was sort of part just along here there's paddle steamers along there. yeah, yeah. and that's one the other way. you have to have lunch if you go on them? you can't just go on a trip or something? no, no. it's a, i dunno how much it was a lunch and leave about one o'clock every day. about two hours. and you can see it. it goes back, well not far. and it comes back up to like where we were. oh. you could actually see it. we saw it one day you know. turns round and goes back again. that's one from the other direction. and there's also some shots in there. but whether they've been opened or closed it's like a white elephant, i mean lovely place, look. mhm. but it was only about two shops that showed any signs of life. and they weren't open. i mean shops had stuff in them. there was an icecream place. and there was another one with some, i dunno, gifts and souvenir but they were, they, and all the others were empty. i mean there was nobody there at all. so you don't know whether it had just been built and well it was newish but er i mean one of the couriers mentioned it to us and i said well i dunno whether you want to pass the information on, whether you know, maybe you don't. i said but if you intend sending people there i shouldn't bother nothing there! because there's nothing to go for. the shops are not open. the two that were said like, nine thirty to something which was like one o'clock, and it didn't say lunch like you couldn't get any. the only place that was open was this fast eddy's for lunch and whatever you know, drinks. lovely place. mhm. it's like over here though, that umm surrey keynes where bill and i went is it. no good? and we drove down to another place, i think this was, it was just called the pub. and we had a meal in there. and sat outside, there again wherever you look i mean what you pay god knows how much here for for views, you know. mmm. just sit there and look out, that's what you look onto. lovely innit. that's that lot. mm. they've come out nice haven't they? mm. and this lot is some that i took down here. no that was the room. that's nice. that's nice innit? that was the front door. that's the adjoining one that mummy oh yeah. two double beds and the sliding doors and verandah was this way of course. mm. nice lot of space. oh yes. like drawers and cupboards and things. and the oh yeah. and behind here, up there, was a big big deep shelf which took the suitcases comfortably. oh that's a good idea. underneath that, at waist level, was another shelf built into a recess. where we put all our the kettle. mm. the, the ice buckets and all that, you know. opposite that was the hand basin and round in behind the mirrors here was the bathroom. mhm. nice innit? mm. that was the er tells you what channels you can get what you pay for oh yeah. and what you don't. i don't think we used all these. there was, there was two more, two more no. loads of space. along there. and these, just, you just the handle, and the door is two i think both doors had three, full length mirrors. and they just concertina open. mm. and they, well, terrific size. mhm. that was taken for a joke on the place that, god knows what it was, what it was. i just said, i just said stop. uhuh. stop for a minute you know. uhum. mummy's birthday flowers. oh they look nice, don't they? that's outside the front. nice trees. in boxes with a bench. on the boardwalk. hm. on the boardwalk. with oliver's disney carrier bag! yes. that's wh-, must have been virtually the last day when we discovered the disney shop across the road. and of course it's so umm as i say it's so crowded you know, look. uhuh! you wouldn't believe it, would you? still i, it's out of season innit? wonder what it's like in november. well derek said, was it november or december through january and february, that's the, it's like seventy. he said that's, it's beautiful then you know. mm. what about the amount of people, does it really get crowded. well, i, i, i dunno. i can't remember whether he said yes or no. hm. we walked there, it was quite a walk down to the water and you can see the depth of the mhm. well from the hotel, we walked down and just happened to take, and where, where this chap that we met at that had this hotel in eastbourne. either one or the other was a place where he went and looked and he, he was going back in october. oh. the, the um, you know, condominium things. mm. lovely sand though innit? mm. oh there's those bikes that go in the water! yeah. uhum. they look really good fun, cos they're like pedalos but sort of different aren't they? yes they're back wheel drive and don't they with the did they have any of those umm scooters. saw some yeah, i dunno where from. not, not, not immediate you know but sort of, they do go don't they? yeah. there's another one of the things going on. oh looks nice dunnit? and barbie on the beach. mhm. that's the grass area, the pool was there. and we tended to come to this area, grass and there's that bar thing again mhm. the beach is down there, you can see the things sticking up you the sky looks nice that day. oh yes. i mean it was, like that virtually every day. and i think now these are some i took for your uhum. mm. looks nice dunnit? mhm. looks a lot bigger in the photos, the garden. mm it looks pretty dunnit, the garden? certainly does. that looks nice. hmhm. they come out well haven't they? mhm. so er if you want to take all concerning you out i mean you know. i don't mind. it's up to you. well. we could always see them again and yeah. we, we don't really need them at home, do we? no. they're more for you to er yeah. okay. thank you. they've come out well, haven't they. the holiday ones. mhm. and we've got the negatives. i mean, if . a lot of that stuff we've got out the back on the bank is umm honesty. which? up there on that bank. this, you know honesty mm. that's what's growing up there. load of it. some of the flowers, those wild flowers have become honesty. really? mm. oh, well i didn't recognize it, not the honesty that i know. yeah it is. is it? cos it's green now. oh. then i suppose it just becomes that transparenty, whitey stuff. oh. there's some at the front as well. some of those, you know the pinky and whitey flowers? mm. have become honesty. drill, extension, steps brackets and a pen or pencil. now providing i've got all that i can be doing some while you you've gone. yeah well i'll be gone sort of half an hour. mm. so you're going in half an hour. yeah, then i'll be gone for half an hour. alright then half an hour to get . i was wondering is it worth me changing? it's up to you. you going out tonight? no. umm mummy's, mummy ph-, oh and she's coming up with brian. oh is she. at five thirty. so what are you gonna do? leave here about five then? well fifteen yeah, something like that. get home. it doesn't matter if i'm not there but umm you know with the time she's there and whatever. which one shall we use? ashtray ? well there's one being used already. somewhere. here you are. thankyou. and mummy also mentioned something about . cos brian told her that they were doing a census sydenham. and if i wanted, you know go another way or something. and i thought well how long does it take. and it was just down by lauries park you know . i always come, always turn right from home. and then come down crystal palace park road mm. down, along all anyway, it was on the bend, and he just waved me they were still there lunchtime mhm or what i dunno. he just waved me through. so you haven't sussed the newlands park umm way yet then? umm not properly, no. i did . now what did i do when, one day last week. oh, i was going to beckenham. but i didn't come out where you said . but i did something that i m-, should have done before, coming from umm volkspares that's where you need to go. yeah. down volkspares road. and when you get sort of to you have to go round and then you go like ro-, there's a big bend isn't there mhm. like there's some council flats and you go down. and then you turn right where there's that big well it's sort of obvious where you turn right. umm it's leonard road and then you turn right into umm forget the name of the road now. but as you go round that bend, there's a turning, as you go round the bend and you go down. and i think it's signposted penge or something and you turn right there. and you carry on straight all the way down there and just carry on straight, and then you come to umm a road that kent house road goes that way kent house lane or kent house road. but you need to go sort of you, you have to sort of go over and like that and you go down kings hall road. yeah i think that's what i do. and where d'you come out? you go all the way down kings hall road. and then you tu- you go all the way down all the way down, and then you turn right at bridge street. you go over the bridge and then you turn and then if you're coming here, you go turn right again into umm d'you know i can never remember the name of the road, another road anyway you turn right. and then you come out into rectory road. mm. just by umm the station. oh well i didn't do that. i saw kent house and i thought. now i can't remember, if i go one way i'm gonna finish back up in if you go to kent house you just come straight back out into beckenham. kent or something i'll take a chance and i'll go this way and i went, and i came out there's a garage on the way to beckenham. yeah. well you see you need to go on the main road. thought well at least i'm heading in the right direction you know. but you need to go the one over . you need to go over. where the road is, you sh-, you should sort of come out like that and the main road sort of goes round like that and you need to sort of go like that. you, you want to go straight across but it isn't straight across it's sort of like that mm. but it's umm kings hall road. oh i'll, i'll have a look on the map. and you sh-, i mean it takes from here to your place, going that way can take fifteen minutes. i mean to get to beckenham that way it takes. as long as bromley's alright it can take sort of eight minutes. mm. but then going the direct way to get to beckenham, it's only bromley that holds you up. i don't know if umm jeff or, would know anybody or can do anything with this. the back is sort of all floppy. the drill the extension and the steps. right. umm jazz f m phoned me this morning. oh did they? well i phoned them and said, i thought i'd leave it till this morning. and i said er so and so . ohh i do remember. i said well i don't expect you to. yes she said, the winner. i said well apparently yes. the loser. doesn't seem to be. so she said umm i said well i haven't heard from anybody you know. i've heard bits and pieces that someone overheard a conversation with your malcolm laycock but i haven't heard anything since. so she said oh i'll get tim to ring you. are you going out. i said yeah, one-ish. anyway within about half an hour he came on and umm, been on to the record company sorting out a couple of records that we hope are the things you like, plus they were going to sort you out some tickets weren't they? i said well it was mentioned. so he said well it's all, it's all in hand he said and you know so. tickets for what? some, i dunno. that i don't know. these are a bit big i think. oh i mi-, i could possibly might be better if jeff i think that all these, no these are too big. cos i didn't reckon on umm i think i think what it is is that, that thing there, that i think this, and see that middle bit. yeah, that needs to be bent down. to make it more like a spring. yeah. so that it works as a spring at the moment, just no you need something finer than this. bill used his umm trimmer edger. oh yeah. yeah, it's marvelous. is it? mhm. no, it needs something to go in there, very fine and that to be bent down. what d'you want? i haven't got anything suitable. i'm just looking at those to see if there's any weight on them it doesn't give any weight on those bags. doesn't it? they used to be in that size i, i can't remember now, that size used to be i can't remember, no. i mean half a crown size. can't see any umm . more than a kilo innit? more than two pounds. mhm. i dunno. it's gotta be dirt cheap, what, what . can't remember now. three fifty was it? four pounds or something like that i dunno. right. are we in the right area? yeah, umm cos i bought these little ones cos i've got two little baskets. umm wonder if a little one would be better here so it won't get knocked so much. mhm. d'you reckon? yeah, you don't want it too low do you because umm oliver can't reach it there. no. and if you're coming round the corner you're not gonna knock that are you? you've got no, no plenty of room whereas if you put a big one there. yeah well you have a look and, yeah well i mean. yeah, cos anything bigger is gonna get knocked, isn't it? yeah. yeah. so put a little one there. right. right, that one goes there. umm i think a big one here, cos i want to look at it from in there. mm. umm, the kids come round here to get all their toys so there's a big sort of ridge there so it can't really go over that oh yeah cos er the screws will hold it, i mean don't worry about that. well, just somewhere sort of, i mean it doesn't really matter. somewhere it's gonna be seen so and the higher the better because all the kids oh there's the phone. i'll go and get the phone. er can,can you drill into this concrete? well it looks as though there's a a masonry drill there, yeah i would think so. cos you can't really put one on the fence. cos it's too thin, innit? mm. and there's no way of you can't. fixing it onto there, unless you've got like a unless unless you bent it or something. so maybe umm one over there like that somewhere. well it doesn't really matter where, if i just tell you where, it doesn't matter where on there. i mean the higher the better. yeah. it's a shame we can't er we can't bend them. i mean that gonna be alright? it's not gonna be in anybody's way. no. i mean the barbecue's here can't no. cos you can't screw into this fencing. it's too thin. well i'll have a go at drilling up there as high as poss. yeah. level with the top. yeah, and then, that'll be like that. mm. yeah? yeah, because that, it's not gonna catch fire cos the barbecue's here. and that's just a shelf, so when you've got the stuff coming out. yeah. well you can always take it down anyway. so one there. so that's going up there. up there. as high as possible. umm. that one there, that one there. umm got another little one. umm, oh that's where i want one, here. well, one right over there or there. umm. it can always be changed but i mean you've got the, got the lamp this side, and the barbecue. so if i put the lamp basket here. well bit more, it'll be too much one side yeah. but that's up to you entirely. maybe a big one there. sort of there i suppose is it? well, it's in that line of con, just below that line of concrete and the top of the door. yeah well, yeah which is that way isn't it? okay then. so is that it? yup. right, come and have your drink. there's a cup of concrete in one. that's good. umm don't do that darling to the flowers. get the bumblebee. well the bumblebee doesn't want to be got. i'm trying to trap a bumblebee. you're trying to trap him? yes. i don't think he wants to be trapped. down. yeah, why don't you just sit down and have our drink first. and del's gonna have his tea. that's worked out good. there y'are. mm. that was very hieroglyphic wasn't it? yeah i think we'd better come away from that, thank you. i'm going to one match. no i'm not . . what have i done. one, no. two. three. four. where are we going after tea? there's one there. oh thank you very much. thank you. is this mine? oh i'm sorry. i thought it was mine. i am sorry. i am. let's get that bumblebee . right and have a drink and we're gonna, i'll do this in a minute. where am i going? two. oh yes, i can see the mark. right it's tea first. do that properly. what's the time, four. good god is it already. thank you very much. come out of there. well i got lots of jobs to do. that fern is umm still alive. oh is it? where's that bumblebee? that bumblebee, there he is on the end there, look. where. don't hurt him. i'm going to trap him. he doesn't want to be trapped. no, no. why? cos they're very good. they do, i mean they only, they only sting you if you, if you try and capture them. if you trap them then they'll sting you. if you trap them they get annoyed then they'll sting you. but if you just leave them alone, he's doing . he's just having some dinner. he's having some dinner in the, they eat, they eat the thing in the flowers it's all like sweet sauce. you don't really need to trap anything. i do trap. which is mine? this one? no, the other one. the other one. that one, no. that mine? is that my shreddies there? . alright i'm not gonna trap that bumblebee. there's a good boy. no don't do that. mm? indians. no thank you. indians. . got this thing . they got a spear. you can where's my special walking stick, i can't go out in the jungle without walking stick cos i might slip over. i brought it for you. oh that's lovely. thank you very much. there's . that's my walking stick, i walking stick, i want to . you slipped over a few times but you got up alright didn't you? you fell down and slid a little way, didn't you? yes. on your bottom, you slid down on, cos it was all, bit slimy wasn't it? yes. are we coming down saturday? yes, please. you got to take your sword. is nana and del looking after you on saturday? we're coming down to look after you on saturday. will that be okay? yes. good. and if it's, if it's light. if it's still light and we can see what, i dunno what's happening on saturday. we'd like to go out reasonably early if we could. but we can have a little game, can't we, outside? before you go to bed. pardon? bed. mm. we'll have a game before you go to bed. he's been a good boy. you've been going to bed nice and early haven't you? that's very good for you. ooh. i watched that umm whatever it was called, japanese mafia thing last night. oh, robert mitchum. i'd seen it before but couldn't remember it you know. we didn't bother. my walking stick. i've got my walking stick. then there was er. have you? there's a was in a thing. later, i think it was on anglia, was it? the connection, or was that on i t v? don't know, we went to bed. so i recorded that. this one. i can this one. can you? yes. one hand too. very good. but i don't that one.. oh, that is a pity, isn't it? right, let me move into position. see what we can do here. now then. that's done enough. i'm gonna with you. i'm gonna with you. . what are you gonna do that? i want put it on there. that's that. now then, we're moving over here. are you gonna play soldiers with me or not? all this drilling. see how we go for time. look at this, oliver. look. we've gotta clean the pond out. oh, maybe del will help you do that. look. what's that? what's that. pick it up. let's show del. it's it's a snail. don't hurt them. i'm trying to don't hurt them. i don't like them. well don't touch them then, they're not touching you, so don't touch them. i wanna make them dead. no, don't be so nasty. i am. look what he's done? he's crushed a snail. crushed a snail? yeah. aah. you're naughty aren't you? how would you like it if someone stamped on your head? i'm going you're just being nasty, that's what you're doing. ow! what've you done? he trapped me. can you er,in a minute mhm. i think i'll have to have some of those rawplugs cos i'm running out of matches. right. i'm gonna get my sword. no, i don't want you touching those snails. cos they're not doing any harm to anybody at all. look what you're doing to it! you haven't got matches have you? ordinary wooden matches . get off! i don't want to. i'm if you want to jump on something you jump on the trampoline. i want to sit mummy. well you sit on it but you don't jump on it. shoes on. four o'clock. well take your shoes off then. come on, sit down on the step. there you are. oh that's lovely. now, it's there isn't it? just that one on that post. they'll look nice won't they, once they're all filled up? mhm. where did i did i have it? what? the bracket for this one? yeah, i left them all out. . there it is. where? oh, maybe i fell down . so it's a right that's there bits and bits. miles can you go and get sara out of the shower . cheers. have you finished those peanut butter cups? cups not these pieces pieces reeces pieces. how do you like that that photograph, i can't, that's really not let's have a look, let me have a look at it. it's a terrible photograph, it's atrocious. you can't take it back. bet it's not. you're really photogenic. photogenic! yeah! that's not a bad photo at all. hey that's hey hang on, where is this? lucy 's. that's a foul photograph and oh look i'm not thanking you for that phil. gemma , is that gemma ? gemma 's quite photogenic. ooh! oh that's that. oh. that was 's. yes. i know. mr, mr . has he just gone? yeah. he was teaching us for er physics and er where does this go? no on the top one. what? urgh! who, who used to do that? i dunno. no he had longer hair. yeah well hi hi. ha have you? yeah i have. ha ha have you? oh i thought that was you. you wish! colonel dick, i know colonel dick, good touch that. erm have you got any more of those any of them, have you got cups? what's cups? you know,cups. i've got one more packet, it's in the bottom drawer. are they crunchy? reeces peanut butter cups. yeah. crunchy! mm mm mm. i like it come in here and just leave it. ah i like it crunchy! jess nicked some of your roll. mm crunchy. i don't like these as much as mm? i don't like this as much as the small ones. why's that? cos i don't. are you going to the play tonight? obviously not. are you? what play is it? what play is it? a man for all seasons i was gonna say . mr today congratulated me for slapping anthony . he's a did you slap him? i hate him so much, he's such a knob. who, mr or anthony ? both . alright tuna breath. do you do spanish a level? yeah yeah do you know what is? would you like to say that one more time please simon. mm? ah? mm? you're almost you're almost fluent in english aren't you? almost. almost . no, how'd you spell i barely speak how do you spell er er come on, say something sal i got hairy armpits. how's that for starters? what about your bare man carpet stripped chest? ape-like man. oh what am i doing? the norwegian oh have you ever done that? where, where where you ph er you use the phone and it says erm we are trying to coll connect your call, please hold the line and then it goes sorry sorry sorry t-shirt a what? black t-shirt it's on top of your really clean black thing which i washed. is that that libra one which smells of donna? erm no no that was my fault actually . somebody can have that one. excuse me. no, please, park your ass please. sorry. sorry. yeah. no it's not in there. there it is. do what? no no no no no, cos look i got i love it do you wanna do that again sal? he doesn't even know. sorry! sorry! please hold the line. sorry. if you're gonna start laughing at me you can just get out radio rap . does everybody have to be in their studies at quiet time? five o'clock yes. no everyone has to be in sorry . sorry ! sorry, the number you have dialled is not available please try again . yeah! no, no,please try later . mm. the number you big girl's throw. a big girl's throw? that's what it is isn't it?on the cricket pitch. remember when you were pissed at ascot? that's right. best of cricket of my life. mm. we played cricket at ascot bloody good! bloody drunk! yeah we were fucked we went to ascot with my dad standing at the bar all day, we watched how many races did we watch? we watched er one? one, the first race we found the bar , got fucked makes a change that, doesn't it? yeah. and erm sorry and erm and erm and erm. and then we went and played cricket in the middle of the racecourse ! of the racecourse? mm. i came to see you play racquets today but you weren't playing. did you go to the dentist? who won, who won? i had a dentist appointment i had a dentist appointment oh no did you go? three o'clock. no. fuck! and i was supposed to phone my dad to tell him what time i was playing racquet. bit of a cock up all round really isn't it? mhm. sorry i'm gonna say that to mum and dad tonight, sorry. who wants this? i do. thank you. we are trying to connect you candid camera this thing before you do mm. an you let me know when you're doing that? mm. no you're being recorded by the way. sorry . is that why they were laughing? no we were laughing because you've got mayonnaise all round your mouth. sorry . she doesn't like i know. she's a vegetarian oh god! she's a vegetarian sorry . a vegan. that is the worst, i really did think she was a vegan and no one believed me. who's this? some bird. some bird. that was a nightmare today in common room wasn't it?and then lunch. fucking lunch eh? did he stay in lunch? yeah. no he came, i walked in and i'm going no ah ah ah ah cos i'm the only bloke and there are all these girls i bet you were really fucked off. yeah, yeah i was missed again mm mm. sorry . missed again it's english they wanted not spanish on this tape. let me know when you're recording okay because lion what does lionel ritchie say sara? that's okay. right, so have you got quite a lot of prep? loads and loads and loads, have you? i've only got a bit of french and german so i can help you with the essay if you like. right, and what did you write? hang on erm what was the title again? what is it about eddie's behaviour in this episode that enables alfiera to predict the outcome of the play? oh yeah and you've got erm between four page forty five fort forty five okay basically you say that, well i i made most of mine up, erm like i said, but his erratic behaviour, the way he gets so frustrated so, you know, really fast i mean don't use these words cos this is actually what i said no i'm just writing down what you what you said. but his, his but basically his behaviour is that you, you can tell the way he reacts, you know he gets like really het up and really excited, you can tell that whatever alfiera's gonna say it's not gonna really gonna make much difference. unless alfiera's gonna say right he's unless he's gonna agree with him. yeah basically unless he agrees with him whatever alfiera says is irrelevant because eddie's gonna go out and and take action himself anyway. he's already made his mind up. basically, yeah. he's, well not necessarily made his mind but you can suggest that he might, may have done and also it seems that alfiera is slightly half hearted in the way he erm like tries to convince eddie cos it seems that i it, i get the feeling that alfiera already knows and just thinking well there's no point in getting really het up about it, so he, he tries, he says look it's not a good idea but in the end he says at the end doesn't he, he says well it isn't a beginning so yeah but he's not really really a er at er er look cos when it comes in no at the beginning alfiera and er it was at this time oh but i don't quite, oh no no no no cos this cos i used this look, i said that erm i'd re i had represented his father in an accident case some years before and i was acquainted with the family in a casual way, and i said this may suggest, because he was saying you can make up and you can, this is a bit when you can use your imagination, and i said this may suggest that his father, you know he'd like, because it the way he says that, i'd represented his father, i was acquainted, you know maybe that he knows he's used to that kind of erm behaviour from the family, you know, and he knows what eddie's like his fa i don't know i might be completely wrong but i used my imagination there. and doesn't he finish, where's the final bit? he finishes it with erm eddie goes i'll see you around somewhere or something erm i'll see you around. do you want that locket? no not that the sweet. oh no. oh is it blackcurrant? yeah. new, new ones? new flavour . mm. mm tastier. and they've still got honey inside them though? yes. yes. mm! oh god, i don't feel exactly where's my reeces pieces? i don't feel a hundred percent well i can't relax when sara and phil's there. i'm not surprised. i can't not with sal, i'm alright with phil but i don't know he's a bit intimidating. i hate the way i sound on tape. i sound too posh. gotta start talking no don't,to speak erm supper what time? please don't say six thirty. what day is it, thursday? erm it doesn't say on here. it must be six fifteen. why? oh yeah cos it's erm half day, half day yeah. super-duper. erm but at least you know that phil likes you. how? cos do you think he does? i mean obviously not not desperately but do you think he doesn't think oh she's a complete course he doesn't. you're fine. he probably would be much nastier. thing is though it's not that i really care about him personally, you know it's not that i'm thinking oh it's a real shame, but it's just, and usually if, if people are complete dicks i think well er you know, sod them sod it. and i'll just, i, you know, i don't need someone like that but the point is that he, if he knows you don't like him, he goes out of his way to make things difficult for you. yeah, and as well and you can't really avoid him. he's friendly with sal. and foxy. mm. actually he's not that friendly with foxy but erm tt says they're always arguing on the rugby pitch, they're always, you know, stand at the back and slag each other off and say oh shit or stuff but then erm tt afterwards they sort of end happy? yeah end happy but, but not, i mean foxy isn't really i mean don't play don't say any of this to phil, would you? ever. cos i don't, i mean i might be really putting my foot in it but i don't think foxy likes him that much and he said that he's basically he's a it is his bark mu his bark is much worse than his bite. you know he seems like really frightening and intimida that's the thing though cos er what, yeah, i just i don't know i can't just forget about it and say well who cares because he really does go out of his way to make things hard. and the way he treated the way he walks in with that fish. oh, but that but he is acting the whole time, that's not him being him. i swear to god that was so like, if we, if we hadn't been there he wouldn't have really bothered mm. not half so mu not like that anyway. mm. no way. i just love the way that kid must've been standing out there for what, fifteen minutes? i mean he was standing outside? no he went to the grubber first no the bloke what ? oh that little one. he's lovely isn't he? he's sweet, yeah. have you spoken to duncan's brother? no, is he in, what house he is lovely er er he must be in duncan's er what house is duncan in? i don't know. what's duncan's surname? shall i find out? i've got your red book here cos i was looking at it at the weekend. no i was looking at the to find out whether john had an h in his name. oh jonathan? no no no as in j o h n or just j o n. j er j o n it's j o h n. is it? it's j o h n, yes, john is it? yeah. go to the loo, hang on. alright. i'll no no. yeah. they say that 's b 's brother is a really ugly shit. i know he's a bit gormless isn't he?. he really is ugly. urgh. oh just before i, i forget oh jess! neil said to me today stop it! neil said to me erm neil, listen, neil said can i write the article and i said no fuck off . yes, no no no no no no, he did come up but he said that he told ian but no will you just listen to me i know cos he told me as well what, about ian ? yeah about and if he saw our names on the bottom it would be yeah everyone would buy it and i said to neil look if we did do it it would be anonymous anyway you stupid dick. yeah exactly. as if we want to get bloody,can you, i don't want to do it so much now though cos i'm not so against everyone no neither am i . you know survival of the fittest would be really like, you've got to s you know we'd be so unpopular . wait i'm gonna go downstairs and get my politics file. okay. i shall be back up in a minute . all everywhere. i went to the, i went to the stationary whatever, whatever yeah is that, is this, is this pad yours? no it's sue 's. s have you read that? no, read it. oh fuck it's so sex and horny and if you believe that you are stupid. oh how stupid. i went to the woods because i wanted to deliberat i, i not am not. am not when i came to die seeing as i have not lived . nice isn't it? yeah. it's really good. i had some really good erm this too, listen to this,the woods are lovely dark and deep but i have promises to keep and miles to go before i sleep and miles to go before i sleep . i love that, it's so yeah. calming. the woods are lovely dark and deep but i have promises to keep and miles to go before i sleep and miles to go before i sleep by robert frost, robert frost. i talked last night all the way through all the way through first prep, i went down oh god. and saw caroline she's nice isn't she? she is so lovely she really is. she's really nice. sh and people here give her such a hard time i mean like the blokes are always say oh god, you know, that troll and everything but i i think she's really lovely. so do i and i was just talking to her downstairs and i was asking her like the differences between here and the states, you know the boar cos she was in a boarding school before, and she was saying erm how you know just generally the people are nicer and the blokes talk to you not just because you're cos they cool. want to go out with you but because, you know, they think you're a nice person, a genuine kind of g er which is exactly right here they do, they only, they will only talk to you if they're kind of sharking. yeah, basically, or if they think you're good looking. i spoke to er i, i hadn't spoken to james before, i spoke to him today. oh yes so did i,a few times. he's alright. mm. yeah he's not bad, he's nothing special though. i'm really pissed off that i feel a bit silly about kathy, er no not kathy, jenny. is she two faced? i think they all are quite frankly. well ka kathy's actually, kathy really surprised me cos i, she was, didn't appear shallow at all last night. i mean what happened last night? oh well when i got back from i sat in there for about an hour cos the new girls that were meant to be sleeping in there slept in zoey and lucy's room. and you sat where? we sat just in that room. you and kath? and jenny just talking about, you know, well you know it was the sort of stuff that one talks about. have they locked it up again? i don't know it's not very interesting, i mean it, it's big. is it locked? no and it's warm. it's so much warmer than er in here. the radiators are both on in here though. i know but why isn't it working? did you know that kathy had a brother here? yeah. i didn't know that. yeah. they're not as hot as they could be though. they're full on. i told the cleaning ladies and they came up and said, twiddled around with it and said that they couldn't work out what was wrong and they were gonna get some engineers in or something, engineers? not engineers to do radiators, what are they on? plumbers. plumbers . mm ow. i was so cold today, yeah, i got a, i filled up that kettle and i boiled it and i got, i was holding on to it and i fell backwards on to my bed and i burnt myself where? boiling water everywhere. where? down my stomach. ah! it was really sore. it wasn't, i didn't scald myself too badly. have you done your self assessment? oh god yeah i did it all with numbers and i didn't write any comments and it's wr meant to be written isn't it? have you just done numbers? the same. that's what i thought was right. i mean what else have you handed it in ? no. have you? no. i haven't worked. i gave myself ones for like erm like ability like i know i'm good at it but effort was like three, you know, i'm below a but they, they're stupid because it was either above average or below average and what's just average, it was okay, i've been really okay. yeah exactly. good, above average below average, they've been stupid, they should have average. they are stupid. ah what's wrong? thinking about sal, as usual. is it good with him, now? oh god did you talk to him about la was it last night that he got shagged off? yeah, he laughed today, did he? what he said i was just joking? mm. still how were you to know? exactly. i'd be su i would've been such a wreck last night if that, if foxy had done that to me . i was, i was lying in bed thinking ha ya good did it take you quite a long time to get to sleep? yeah. i was like thinking, lying in bed thinking well should i have said it's over or i'm just seeing what he'd said erm shall i? no it's alright, just forget it's there. erm seven weeks this what you've been going out seven weeks? oh my god i've known you two months! me and foxy are only three, three weeks yesterday. ah. i hope it will la apparently he was talking to kathy, no, yeah, i always get, i always think kathy and jenny should be the other way round no no. kathy is the one, yeah no that's right, yeah, she is kathy i dunno i just sort of get those two muddled up i don't know why, anyway erm t kathy was just talking right and she how do you get big kath muddled up? no with jenny as in jenny's quite big. they're not gonna listen. i don't mean, i mean just big, it's er because people like talk about kath, big kath don't they? i suppose big kath yeah. big kath! and she's actually quite pretty. she's not stunning but she's pretty. but anyway she erm i don't think tessa , tessa keeps going god i hope i don't look like big kath blessing if you did. blessing? mm. what you would like to look like her? no, tessa yeah. said god i hope i don't look like big kath and i was saying i think my dear it'd be a blessing if you did you look like big kath . i don't get it! it would be a blessing isn't it it'd be good for her to look like her yeah. like, like her? yeah. why? do you think tessa's pretty? yeah. do you? yeah. oh. you don't at all? no. oh right, oh i, i think she's quite pretty, yeah though kath is just, look basically if kathy didn't have if she wasn't big, basically then she wouldn't be anything special. she's got an attractive face but it's not it's not stunning. no it's not stunning, i think she's pretty though. yeah er attractive, anyway what was i saying, i was talking to her and she said that she'd had a talk with foxy and foxy had said excuse me,and i just felt i just felt so paranoid because she was saying, talking about all the, how he'd never been faithful to anyone and how, and i really did feel, wouldn't you feel awful if everyone was saying oh sal, yeah, sal, sal's making a real effort but but no she said tell you what she'd had a talk with him and apparently he'd said erm he said to her i'm gonna be a good boy this time. but one day and i said, i was talking to erm oh it was a community service, i hate those, such a waste of time, anyway erm what do you actually do? just oh just and read and erm and anyway erm and er and i said did you have a good time cos andy cos they all went to giles's eighteenth you know giles oh yeah yeah. up to erm to his dad's wine bar or something yeah. and erm and i said to andy that was on saturday wasn't it? yeah, yeah i said did you have a good time? and he goes yeah and he goes did sal go? and i said yeah, i said didn't see him with his bird? like this oh my god and james goes erm james goes what, is he doing the dirty on you? i said yeah didn't you know? and i said he finally managed to pluck the guts up to tell me last, plucked the courage up to tell me last night and andy 's eyes light up and i just said erm and i said and i said, i said yeah nice one. un unfortunately he has but, you know,and james goes, he goes god that really doesn't sound like sal, i really wouldn't have thought he would've done that to you. how can james of all people sta well i suppose i know. yeah well he says, he says i rea i wouldn't have thought that but he said that's not really his style, that's not really like sal to do that. and i went oh god,that's probably cos it didn't happen like this and he goes oh right and he goes yeah got a bit excited there for a minute didn't you son like and went er yeah well andy i like, quite like him, he's quite sweet but what's the time? ten to six. twenty five minutes till i see no erm what was i gonna say? today's been a really bad day. i just felt like crying. you know when you just do, er i'm, i am absolutely knackered and i don't know just not in a very good mood. thing is i haven't got that much work this week, or i've just got lots of little things to do but nothing major, i haven't got any big essays i've just got lots of, you know, translations and yeah and like learning my romeo and ju i think i might actually sit down on sunday and learn that cos i'm gonna be at home but i, it's quite good i'll, i'll see foxy when i get back in the evening because parents have gotta come back for the parents' meeting. are your parents going to that? i hate that, i really do, thank god i'm at boarding school cos i hate, the worst bit is like when they get, i remember when i was at day school and them coming home from the parents' evening and i was you know, what did they say what did they do? sitting there, you know, shaking, i wouldn't have touched any food. er the it was er usually gen well, you know, it was quite good apart from my last two years. mine are usually really good except er somehow i think i'm gonna get a really shit one here. mind you the shit i used to get away with at school, you know, just winding the teachers up and like generally taking the piss, i'd always pay attention and i'd always, always get good marks but somehow i think they seem to take pissing about slightly more seriously here. here? i, i get the feeling that because they don't really know especially if you're caught pissing around in quad, yeah, and er it's by a teacher that you don't know, a ma or a master or something they don't pay much attention to it because you're a girl and they don't know you and i get that feeling anyway, i feel slightly like we c could actually get away with more. if it was, if it was that caught us then yeah mm. fine cos he has got all pissing about in quad as what? as, oh well i don't know if you were doing something like we were the other day? and they go yeah. yeah yeah the master walked past, if they had been boys they would have said something, you know, go into your study and do some work, do something you know, but because they were girls th we were girls they didn't really shit on us. no and they didn't pay much attention, they always seem intimidated of us mm. not intimidated but just because they don't know who we are. i suppose it must be quite hard, if you don't teach someone you just like have to shout at them, i dunno. i mean a couple of them do, i mean like kipling housemaster and stuff. who is he? is that in kipling? you dick! mr yeah that's it. mr , mr dick. he erm such a farce he told nigel off for showing showing off. did he? what was nigel doing then? but i wouldn't put it past nigel, can i have another piece of bread? i wouldn't put it past nigel for showing off he did show off and he was trying to, he was trying to be really cool. as always. what was he doing? tell me, make me cringe. oh nothing to make you cringe or anything he was just, he was just like saying you know just stuff that was really pretty well oh last last night he was as well with romeo and juliet. the thing that, that annoys me about nigel, i did think he was a really good actor but he's only ever angry yeah. and he's always like bouncing all these lines out angrily and never got any expression or feeling but oh god some butter can i borrow some butter? yeah. ow my calves, that step class really does your legs in. it builds them up. what, makes them all nasty and muscly? yeah. no it doesn't! yes it does. no i'm not gonna believe that. it does. no! if i it burns off fat. it tones them. urgh. why do you say that ? what, urgh? yeah. because i don't believe that it doesn't. it does. it tones them, it gets like the miss 's got a good figure. yeah. she's not like, i don't mean good figure in a sort of model figure but she's really, really well toned. yeah. there's not one bit of her that well yeah but the thing is she's quite muscly. she's incredibly muscly. it's not like a stick figure or anything but no. dee dee dee well she's really well toned and she always wears cycling shorts and she's a real randy fuck apparently. is she? really randy. how do you know? and apparently at speech day she was talking to s do you know she had the cheek to say to me she had the cheek to tell somebody to say that i should at least have the decency to go out with someone who's half looking, half good looking. she told someone to tell you that? oh my god! doesn't she like sal? well i don't know she just thought, you know, she was a bit disappointed. well how did you hear about cos somebody came up and told me which is even more rude. no but how did you hear that erm she's a randy oh cos sal and at speech day she goes god she goes i could do with a good screw. are you serious? she was really fucked out of her head, totally,an and everyone says how randy she is, it's quite funny. what, do people,ha have blokes here slept with her? eh? have blokes here slept with her? no i shouldn't think so. i bet they have. bet they ha i bet you a lot of them fancy her. come on look at her yeah, she's got a really good figure, she's not ugly she's got a good er i mean she's really tanned and that, they like that and she's really cocky isn't she and she won't take any shit from anyone yeah. and she seems really full of herself and i bet you, i mean come on i'm sure if there, if there was a master like a sports bloke like that you might be s it's like there must be some there must be some people that fancy her actually i reckon they do cos sh and she's also quite easygoing. mm. you know she makes us laugh doesn't she? i mean we have her for general studies. general studies and that's, you know, er she's n not randy in that but she's knows all the all the interesting bit, i dunno we have her for erm, yeah for that and she's quite a laugh and she doesn't take any shit from the boys at all. does she ever take shit from the girls? don't suppose any girls give her shit do they? no not really but the boys all try. yeah that's erm kathy's cup. mm and she goes to me i've got a cup like that. and i said oh erm it probably is yours actually so don't worry about it. it's not a problem. i thought she was hinting then. big cup, big kath. i wonder, my old housemistress actually got erm thrown out of her school, she was a brilliant housemistress, she was really young, really pretty twenty, twenty eight or something, really easygoing and she like, she went out of her way to, she bent over back yeah she went out of her way to get us erm you know out of shit. out of shit and she oh had a different bloke in her flat every night and you never, you, if you ever wanted to see her that was the one really annoying thing you couldn't really go and see her and she was hardly ever about. yeah. we had, we had a house matron as well but anyway she was kicked out of her school for sleeping with all the sixth form blokes. really? yeah. so i can just see miss doing it. or at least old ones that have come back or something. yeah. i bet she has! mm. wouldn't surprise me. aha! she's not very attractive when she's done up but she's attractive when she's like sweating it out in her cycling shorts that's one thing i wish i looked good in sports cl sara looks good in sports clothes. so does kate . so does i don't think kate is fat at all. who says she is? it's only because she's pretty and people take notice of her and they say oh she's a bit fat. what about gemma you don't think she's fat do you? foxy was saying how they were all standing on the balcony saying that she really oughtn't to wear those shorts cos she's got such thunder thighs. and i, and he said to me oh you're so paranoid catriona, you always wear your tracksuit bums, you know, you're so stupid to get so worked up about it. he says that to me and then he turns round and says that they were all taking the piss out of gemma because she's got thunder thighs and she hasn't, that's the whole point! i don't like to, i really dread to think what, what g goes on, what gets said in the rugby changing rooms. especially when you're not gonna like me for this because, you're not gonna like me for this but i think one think about foxy is he is two faced. is he two faced? i think he is. why do you say that, tell me why? well kirsty said something to me and i said oh i don't think so, i said i think he's, you know, i, i've heard that, you know, he seems a quite sincere kind of bloke, he seems nice but i don't know that's what i think but if he what did kirsty say? kirsty she said, i said, i said foxy cos she's got off with foxy yeah i know. erm and and er she says quite frankly no said no what? shit is that but frankly no what? frankly she goes, she goes yeah he's alright she said but he's too two faced and i said that doesn't sound like him, i said i thought he was quite nice and she goes yeah well he is she says he says one thing to you and then you find out that he's said something completely different and you hear another side of it. but the thing is you know that's one thing, i can't bear people like that because he's just nor can i if he said that about gemma , and he's quite friendly with her as well he didn't say it nastily, he just said that they were all saying that she had thunder thighs, he didn't say i thought, i mean him personally. oh right, oh. but i,does but when you say that now though, cos i, he slagged kirsty off to me, he just said oh she's just really pretentious and she'll, she'll talk to you and then as soon as someone cooler comes in the room she'll turn round and she'll completely ignore you and you're left and she'll do that like at a dinner party or something and you're left standing there feeling a real id you know, you know that feeling don't you when you're talking to someone and suddenly they desert you and you're all on your own in a room? that's a horrid feeling. like had at the beginning? yeah. yeah. erm he, he said oh yeah she'll do that cos someone cool will come and she'll want to impress them. and he said this and he wasn't i mean particularly, he said oh she's just, you know she, she's like sailed through haileybury, she gets out of everything, she, he, he's really keen on the sports side of things here so i don't know why he got so het up about it but he said it really er pissed him off the way she erm sport. yeah she never does sport, she always get out of it, i can't see that that affects him in any way but apparently she always makes up excuses and stuff, and then that night at supper, he's sitting there, you know, all over her. well not but yeah in with her. w well not over her but, but really, really really chummy yeah, and i thought and he'd just been saying how pretentious she was most of the evening most of the afternoon i mean. you know i mean i didn't think anything of it and i thought well i'm a bit like that though too cos i say things about people and then i'll talk to them yeah. don't i? i mean i think, i, i just dro brushed it aside but erm cos it's only human i mean i, in that sense i'm two faced as well yeah. because you think, i mean i come up here and i slag someone off to you or yeah, and then i'll go downstairs and i'll sit with them at lunch and have a perfectly normal conversation with them yeah. and have a laugh with them. well that is, that's natural, everybody does that. exactly. but did she say that he was worse than that? no i don't know, i don't know she implied a little i don't know she just said that he was two faced. then again i think most of the people here are, i don't know what you can get away with. but everyone is in a way, i mean i know i'm being phil's not two faced. is he not? no. i don't think he's very genuine. i really don't i think he's acting the whole time, i don't think he knows he's doing it. he's not no he's not gen he's not, i wouldn't call him genuine but he's not two faced, if he doesn't like you he tells you it doesn't he? mind you i don't know i don't know. what he says behind my back, i mean i tell you someone else who's two faced, marcus is two faced. marcus is one of the most two faced people i know, he's said some really nasty shit about me and i has he? i heard about it and he said it here as well what did he say? after my second week he said i'd got the gift of the gab or something and i always manage to wind people round my finger and always always get what i want and everything and i always took my way out of shit and i heard this from matt , you can imagine how upset i was like on my i tell you er i heard about it on the field weekend cos i was here and matt was here as well and, and i just thought my god i've been friends with this bloke, we were having baths together when we were like two years old and, and i've known him all my life and if you can't trust him well where does the, where, well you know, who can you trust? and i thought for fuck's sake, and he is like that, his mum as well is like that. is she? er are your parents friendly? oh yeah cos they're your godparents aren't they? yeah well she's friendly, well my mum used to be really really good friends with her and then my parents split up and, and like they, they went like water to my dad's side oh right. because my dad was more friendly with but i mean i don't know, but i can't bear people like that i wish they'd just, you know but then if you think about it we are equally as bad. think abou we are. i know, i know it's yeah awful when you hear about yourself, it is horrible and you hear something that someone's said about you and you think how can they, they just spent the whole day with me or they've spent, you know exactly your situation like, couple of years of your life with you yeah. you think what an arsehole but whole life with them. okay whole life, whatever, you think well yeah. what a bastard, how dare they exactly. but think about all the people that we are nice to, i mean look at james , a prime example, have i ever been a bitch to him, never, but i stand up here, when i see him i'm like oh yeah ha ha, you know, laugh along with his jokes and i'm a bitch to him, i tell him, i say you love yourself james. oh yeah i would if i knew him and that but yes. obviously cos of what happened at lucy's party i, i on that situation but okay then, let's not take james but somebody like that yeah. i, i mean dave , i've spent quite a lot of my time slagging him off but to his face i'm really nice . but yeah, i can see that, i can see that side of it but, i don't know, just people that you say something in confidence to like, not like trem but well er yeah i told, i told well jenny take that thing that you told her, i mean that's a bit off. yeah. i can't believe that, within the space of a few shit but, but i said but, but that thing trem, trem like when she said to me don't tell you but i told you because it concerned us yeah, yeah obviously that's different. so er but i mean that's important because it yeah but that's different, that's not like spreading it around, hi oh hello. hey dude. how are you? have you had a hockey match, i mean a lacrosse match? yeah. yeah? yeah. where hast du been? talking to my mum. how's she? are you going home on sunday? me? yeah . weekend. the whole weekend? you got an extra one? how come? no you didn't give it to me it's my last one. what, oh i see. i'm not allowed. so why were you trying to con me to give me one of mine you little conniving can you get exeats? can you lucy how can you do that ? shh. can you pinch exeats off other people? no but i, i no you can't but she's trying to convince you i will never trust you again that's it, why? out the window, she was trying to say oh i really want to go home this weekend, do you think you could ask if i could have one of your exeats and she's still got one left! no that's there's me thinking oh well i will give it to her cos no that's because i wanted it before oh don't try and excuse yourself. i wanted it last weekend because i was gonna see my friend but she's like ill in hospital because she fell out of a cookie jar oh. and of, of a cookie jar? and like a sack of coal what was she doing in the cookie jar? exactly. and erm so she's like broken every bone in her body oh shut up . and shut up. yeah last weekend was a non-exeat weekend dicks. you know. no not this weekend. ah lucy! i got excuse me, put down in the first eleven for hockey. well done. impressive hey? but i'm not gonna play because i want to go home. wait, when are our exams ? i wa in two weeks' time, one week time? next week? please don't tell me next week's the twenty ninth. don't get don't get so, it is, don't get so paranoid because no next friday's the twenty sixth. don't get so worried about them, we have no lessons we just have these we have no lessons we just have these erm we just have these er exams and so why? there's nothing to worry about. have you just recorded me talking a load of bullshit? we've been talking for hours. erm what? say, anyway what i was gonna say was erm what was i talking about, hockey? exams. exams, yeah, so you don't have any lessons you just come back here, you can revise, i mean come on how much have we got to learn anyway in a term? we haven't done that much work. well i've only got like s i've only got five exams. what? i've only got five exams. cos someone said that they were a whole week and you just literally have the week but i can't no i suppose you must have sport and everything else too, you must do. you ha you have sport on tuesdays and thursdays normal. urgh! even the very word exam makes me no do i'm not even worried about these ones because i i'm worried because i've hardly done anything this term. nor have i. exactly, you've hardly done anything, there's not that much they can test you on. english will basically be er chaucer or whatever, or whatever it is that you've been doing. yeah chaucer. art, i don't know, you'll have a no model. i hope you realize we have one week, next week . yeah. yeah. you don't need to revise for them though. ooh . not really, i mean well i know, german i mean i'm gonna be worried about it when i get there but at the moment german and french are just gonna be translating something, there'll be, give me an extract and a translation and i'll have to do them, you know you can't take these ones seriously because you're yeah. not really into it yet. there's not really that much you have to know. i mean maybe with politics you'll have to know. history. oh god, history and politics, those are nas yeah you'll have like be quite difficult i should think. ya make me feel good ! where's erm the song, foxy lady? have you heard the song? yeah. oh damn. you're the only dick that hasn't heard it everybody, the whole world's heard of it. cheeky bitch goes i've never heard it. foxy have you heard of foxy lady? surprised she didn't say foxy's lady. foxy's lady. is that your shoe over there? yeah. yeah cos i tried it on tonight thanks. bitch. erm i'm looking forward to the weekend. i've really hurt my calves. yeah. that's why you i'm worried that wearing these high heels i'm gonna get those nasty, bulgy calves . we were just saying that today i said she's gonna have flipping massive erm calf muscles when she's older. do you really think i will? no! well you'll just look like one of those gladiators are you serious? do you think i will? no. hope not. no cos they're not, they're not like erm stilettoes which where your feet are like bended they're more flat because they've got stilettoes do pump your calves up don't they? stilettoes make your feet, your feet is like but because these are platforms they're erm when you walk, if it doesn't pull there they well it does at the moment because erm i've got really sore calves not from this from erm i like your top. erm thank you i was just changing because it's too cold in here, erm it's blooming freezing. i know the radiators aren't working. i'm so pleased we don't have to sleep in here. oh you were gonna sleep tonight. i know last night was totally fucked up, i was really hacked off about that. i was why? really cheeky to fiona as well. why? afterwards? no, before. said well i'm not oh come on it's not like he's , he's, he's like one of these natural women. oh come on, you know he is! you know alright dear! yeah he, he just doesn't mind about that, he's very kind of well he should change his jumper, he's been wearing that for about two weeks now. yeah he has hasn't he? maybe he's got lots. i hope so. erm dave ? yeah. mind you well he's not good looking no he's not by any means. any means at . yeah. he had really bad dandruff just now as well. yeah i know but he's always got a funny nose, do you notice the way he sniffs sometimes yeah. well what is a good looking school? go on name one. only because you see the few selected people but generally sports players are quite good looking. well they tend to be in the schools. yeah, so you see the few selected ones that come from other schools and you instantly assume that their school must be much more er much better looking than ours. oh christ! i didn't realize he had hair li oh! i didn't realize he had hair like that. who? this guy here. he usually has it back. what are they talking about? whether you dye your hair or not? we've got general studies. oh good we're watching something called fat camp. are you? it's about fat children who get sent away to camp oh yeah my general studies group aren't you? yeah. what have we got next? basically erm well no she came in and she said something like oh he had his hand on carrie's knee. that's it, that's it. he that's off. at lunchtime, no, and i tell you what i said, i mean you don't know any of this, okay? he erm at lunchtime had his hand on carrie's knee and that's all? yeah and when she got up to leave he just like patted her on the bum kind of thing and jess saw it and jess thought oh he's trying to make me jealous when carrie got up? yeah carrie went and as she, as she left he patted her on the bum which is, you know, a bit friendly and i said to jess well look, put it this way, cos she's really, she flirts a lot who? jess with phil. yeah, seen. and she like goes up to him quite freely and just kisses him on the lips, you know okay fair enough people have friendships like that but it's not a kind of kiss on the cheek it is as if there's something in it, you know, as if always she's rubbing it into him. but it's it's also his best friends exactly, that's what i'm saying, so i said to jess, you know have, just be a bit patient, be tolerant with it because you know, he's probably feeling, he might, i mean it just be revenge. anyway i went to see foxy at lunchtime and erm and he said that erm er and i mentioned it to him and i said you know don't go up to sal and say jess is feeling like erm you know, feeling that he's, feeling really jealous because er if, if sal is trying to get back that will just like please him, you know, if he is trying, if that's the whole aim of the whole, you know, the operation then, then he'll just feel pleased and it will also embarrass jessica and she doesn't want and if, and if it's not, if it was nothing, you know, she'll feel embarrassed so please don't say anything and he said no no i'll just make some subtle, subtle comment and he went up to, he told me that he went up to sal and he goes erm and he says how's everything going with jessica and sal goes yeah it's good and, and he go erm cos er phil erm cos foxy goes oh cos it's, it's going really well with me and catriona, it's going really well i'm really enjoying it, what about you, you know, and sal goes yeah, it's really good and foxy goes erm you know is it, is it a long term thing then, you looking for a long term thing do you think and sal goes yeah, what about you and foxy goes yeah yeah definitely yeah, you know, cos he was doing it subtly so i came back and i said to jess you know really,an and foxy said there was nothing strange about, it was no f you know it was definitely to fe s f erm sal was er you know being truthful, there was not like erm yeah well yeah you know and trying to get off the subject, it wasn't it was completely, yeah, it's brilliant, going really well, really enjoying it and it's gonna be long term sort of thing. that's what foxy said, i mean he couldn't, he c he might have s you know said comment other than that but basically i said look you've got nothing to worry about. but erm she's basically just feeling, you know, this monotonous business. i can understand it cos i, i, when i'm feeling a bit down it gets to me, you know i think oh god yeah but you imagine it, you're going out with someone and you see them like every day and then during the holidays you won't be able to see them no but y and then, no like this christmas he'll be in yeah, in saudi saudi arabia and it's, no but here it's only the holidays that really matter, if it wasn't for the holidays i really wouldn't bother because here it really is so plotted out isn't it? lunchtime, you know go to their study, supper time they come here, after nine o'clock if you haven't got romeo and juliet then you go down there, you know what i mean? it's like all plotted and you have like fifteen minutes with them, then half an hour and then it's awful, it's, it's so you feel like you're a routine. yeah, completely, and erm and if it wasn't for the holidays i'd really think oh for god's sake, bugger this, you know, i can't be bothered. yeah but can you imagine cos then like she'll go out to the pub or something, get drunk and then like someone will come up to her and she'll be like no i can't cos he's in saudi arabia, you know it'll suddenly er hit her i mean why not, he'll never know. yeah, almost. i mean she's a, she's a pretty girl and she's very. very outgoing. she's got a really nice personality and she's not gonna be the kind of person to say no i can't because i've got so and so in saudi especially not with james it sounds, it sounds like she fancies him. really? er she was flirting with him yesterday yeah. she's always flirting with him, she flirts with everyone. she's just, i mean you know how people do, i mean i don't, she's not doing it nastily i mean she's just naturally like that i think and erm yeah i just thought she's bound do, yeah she could get off with someone else. but then again phil will be around. it makes no difference though does it? no, it does because phil'll tell sal and then she'd know it'd be completely the end of everything cos sal wouldn't put up with that sort of thing. sal er phil likes her. yeah but it's, it would be jeopardizing their friendship, sal and phil, they're best friends. mm. i don't think, i think phil, although he's a complete arsehole at times i i don't like him. no i, i'm not sure how i feel. no he's, he's, he's just out to impress people, i mean he looks around to see if you're watching him and he'll erm no, yeah he's acting the whole time, i don't really, i don't know if he knows who he is you know? mm. anyway erm she er er i don't, i, although he's, you know, probably after her, i really don't think he'd risk his friendship with sal because of no. because of a girl, i really think he's loyal in that way, in that sense, because they are very close they have a laugh and i know when we're with them they're always like seem to be impressing everyone but i'm sure when they're together they have like, you know,human conversations , they must do, they can't always be talking about screwing and you know, which girls have got big tits and all that yeah like big kath. big kath. so she hasn't lost her virginity? kathy? mm. no. but jim really hurt her because erm when she was going out with him he was a virgin and then erm they came back, you notice things were a bit sort of sort of on the rocks when they came back at first? do you remember? it was quite difficult between them, you know she wasn't sure, do you remember? i, i didn't know him that well and i heard her saying oh i don't know what's happening, you know, and she'd like oh is she going out with him she was going out with him at the beginning of this term oh right. and erm and they, and they how far in did she oh only a couple of weeks, no they were standing in the common room and she knew he was a virgin right and they were still going out and she knew he was a virgin when they first started going out and rox goes oh so are you a virgin then erm erm james and he goes no and she was still going out with him and she knew that it wasn't with her, obviously, and, and roxy goes oh who was it then and he goes oh just two, two birds i met in erm portugal and portugal? yeah. whereabouts? oh i don't know for god's sake how do i know ? erm and yeah two birds i met in portugal and, and then kathy just like stormed out. it was a really insensitive thing to say. don't you think? yeah. really pissed off, oh i haven't done any prep at all. thing is i, i don't know if i'm just imagining that i haven't got any, this this doesn't really work. or if i really haven't. fridays. i can't work on fridays. i felt really erm did you get, by the way,th that letter i put on your desk yeah. you've got to ask your parents to wear those badges to come to erm the meeting with the badges on. what's the letter about? some cookery book i think i heard. it's probably about what time they're coming back in. it's really boring. erm i felt really organized cos mr said that i was too hyperactive and i needed to have, i had to do something constructive so he sent me out posting well giving everyone their letters and i felt really i mean he didn't do it nastily, he just said i was flitting about and needed something to do and so it was really fun. do you know, it sounds awful yeah but mr er mr and erm and mrs seem really, like i've come in late so many times, yeah? you know, when i'm not supposed to be out and i'll come in at ten thirty when all the others and they don't say anything. nothing at all. and george says she's come in and like they ban her from going out. they ban her from like nine forty five don't know. maybe they just think i'm at rehearsal. i reck yeah i reckon they might, i reckon that she likes . no she doesn't. she doesn't? no she likes james . do you reckon she'll pull him? no. she said but i'm not gonna do anything about it but i just think he's nice. oh and something else i heard yeah and this doesn't get anywhere cos lucy erm told me and didn't tell anyone but erm she was talking to tom about erm laura and dave and apparently s while george and erm dave were going out they actually planned they were gonna get back together. laura and dave. they, they're just not getting back right now, i don't know if it's just to be sensitive to her or whether it's just because, you know, they're gonna see each o i mean they live on the same road, they'll probably see each other this weekend. really? yeah. but please don't, i mean don't say that to george cos that'll really hurt her no i'm not going to. the only, i reckon the only reason she's upset about it is because she can't have him, that's wh you know when you can't have something then you want it. mm. oh screw! bugger i've got such a headache. my head's killing me. oh me too, what is it? i don't know. cos they can be really the flared ones i don't, i c never seen a like smart, the tight ones i have. look smarter don't they? erm yeah they do tend to but i have seen er a friend of mine had a really nice smart one, it was erm it was black, it was just plain black and it had really thin straps and erm it went down, it was a v or something here? and erm it was erm like silky material so it looked really, it, it wasn't chiffon it was erm no it was sort of satiny silky, it wasn't real silk but it was like shiny stuff, and it sort of went in, in and it went a v down there and then it like flowed down and it was very short and because it was a si but it d it wasn't tight, i mean it sort of clung, it showed her waist but it didn't, you know, it exaggerated her waist but it didn't like it didn't cling anywhere else really and it just looked quite, it was flowing and it was, it was really smart and it was, i, the sort of erm the material would be erm sort of almost like und er like my pyjamas that, it was that in black kind of halfy satiny silky stuff. what would you put on me though? seriously though? and she wore pearls and long gloves. you can dr you can dress the, you can really dress er dress a dress up . you can, you know, anything you can make smart. what, what would you put me in? what would i put you in? i wouldn't wear flares cos you'll feel really out of place. oh i don't wanna wear flares. cos people generally don't, i mean i don't know, it depends how, well it depends if you're one of these people that can walk in and not care that you look completely different to everyone else. no. no. cos i i can't, i feel, i always feel really silly. no i'd, i'd wear erm what would i put you in? i'd put you in a tight dress. but my bottom's big. well then if you, if you're worried about that, if you, if you wouldn't feel comfortable then wear a erm a flowing one. but do you think that it would do that? no no not at all, it gets, it will get your waist and then it'll flow out if it's long it's gotta be no a tight one. the tight one? the tight one will i've never seen you in a tight dress though, you don't let me see so i have you got a short skirt here? no. neither have i. hannah's got one. you could try it if you had like a black vest top we could just experiment couldn't we? no i've got, i've got a dress at home which is like flared a black one. i wouldn't wear that one though. why not? it's not nice enough. what ball, what ball is it, is it a london ball? really? what ball is it, stockings? mm. you're going to stockings! mm. oh my god! it ca are you going? no i'm not but i f i went two years, are you going with tom? mm. oh is it at the empire? or is it equinox? it's not equinox. st it can be the s i tell you it'll be the feathers or the stockings if it's on the twentieth of december stockings. stockings, yeah. it will be a ball then. it'll be what? it will be a ball. dunno. , that's the company. last year's,th the f the first stockings i ever went to was brilliant, they had right said fred live cos someone said that they went last year, george said they went last year brilliant. last year's was no la it can't be the same one then cos last year's was absolutely terrible, the one i went to with right said fred was amazing i think someone else did go to that, sue-anna or somebody? she said it was br it was, i didn't think it was but it wa it was really good fun and also i was going out with carl at the time and so, you know, in our big like little group big little group, our big group, that was a bit of a erm contradiction, erm in our big group and erm we knew masses of people and there were lots of there and there were lots of felixstowe people there and it was just a really good laugh and erm right said fred were there and some other sort of ravey group, can't remember what now and then, no some techno group, and then erm so we all thought oh let's go for this, let's go,la this time last year we thought oh well let's go over to this one for a joke, you know, for old time's sake let's just go along and have a joke and we went and it was full of erm like they were all about fourteen, i suppose when we went we were all fourteen too but last year well most of my friends are sort of you know sixteen erm we went and it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't full at all and the place is huge and it says, it says on the thing, you know, two thousand people go and there must have been about four hundred at the most and it was really, and i, also i ha i was ill that day and it was really shit so if they said it was brilliant last year it probably wasn't the stockings because it was, nobody i met said it was, and also yeah the stockings and the feathers were put on the same day and there's competition between the two companies does stocking and i've forgotten what feathers is, there's competition and so lots of people went to the feathers instead and the feathers had like too many people and the stockings had too lit too few. so it could've been the feathers. yeah. you'll have a brilliant time though. if, if it's with, if you're with s if, if, i wouldn't advise it if you weren't going out with someone already why? unless you were going with a group of friends cos you don't, you wouldn't meet anyone, you would,s seriously they were, last year they were like twelve years old. fourteen years old . we were all yeah. you know, cos we were all single i think all of us were and we were just going for a joke cos seriously it's just a cattle market at you know you don't talk to people well you do but it's just a laugh. no wear erm wear yeah wear a tight dress and once you get in there so many other people are wearing exactly the same thing but do you think my bum's big? do you think i don't think it is at all but i've never seen it. i mean i've never seen it in that context. no don't worry about it, seriously, we all used to have this, yeah, we used to go on these manic diets wanna go but it's, it's just the thought like ten weeks beforehand. it's just the thought of i'd be, i just don't have the confidence. yes you do and, and also, another thing, and it's, in a way it was a bit annoying because we'd go on these like crash diets, you know, we'd get really nasty and s well not nasty and skinny we'd just get really skinny before we went cos you know we wouldn't eat anything except like fruit for a we, we'd eat, we'd go on a diet and then we wouldn't eat fruit for, wouldn't eat anything but fruit for the week before and so we'd, you know we'd like have flat stomachs and you feel, if you haven't eaten you feel thinner even if you're not, it's all, it's a bit, it's psychological isn't it? you look at yourself and think hey i didn't have any food today so i look instantly, you, don't you find that? you think you look thinner and you don't at all. erm and and yeah an and we were thinking oh yeah we look really good and we go along and, but there's so many other girls wearing exactly the same thing that you just blend in, you don't you know what i mean? you don't stand out from anyone. yeah once i get there once i get there exactly. so once you're there you won't mind at all. and it's al you always think, it's a real anti-climax because you, you've made so much thing about getting ready and getting there and when you when you do finally arrive there you're just exactly the same as the million others. well hundred others. what shoes do you wear? i wear i wear my big ones, my t you know the ones i wore for erm our party? make me about five eight four inches. four or five inches, really tall. but they're thick they're not like stiletto heels they're platforms. you'll have a brilliant time, it's such a laugh but you can't drink, that's the only thing, you can't drink inside, they don't sell alcohol unless you've got i d and there's about four people there that are actually eighteen anyway. no you'll have a good time, seriously, it sounds like i'm putting you off, i don't mean to, it's not it's like today when jess put on that s that tight skirt that's what i would look like in one of them, i'd go out. did you think she went out in it? i thought she looked really good. i thought she went out, she went like that. oh i do too in things like that. you don't though you haven't got the same shape as me i've got the same shape as her big hip bum no, big hip bones i've got huge hip bones. i do go out, i swear to god i put on zoey's tight skirt, you know the straight tight ones, they really don't suit me at all i really do look awful. yeah mm. i'd die for some hot chocolate. i want an orange. you want an orange? feel like an orange. oh god yeah. there's orange juice but oh yeah an orange! mm. what is this? oh i see people with famous names. there is a person called dawn french, jennifer saunders, julia roberts mandy smith hey hey how much are the tickets? the balls? they used, they used to be about ten quid and you, we all thought it was really good value and went to all of them but erm they've gone up to like eighteen pounds well that was the last one i went to last year so some of them are twenty two and i paid thirty for one of them but that was at the erm savoy hotel that little bluebird one, that's a real debs' ball. is it like your erm jewish? no, not at all, it's boarding school. erm i think the stockings is turning slightly more jewish cos i remember katy a friend of mine and who goes to channing he, he had the same problem. she's not jewish but she erm was going on about how a lot of channing people had started going and stuff and they're all jps basically. so i think it is turning like that but it w certainly wasn't when i went to most of them i didn't, i never met anybody from channing or highgate or l or from north london schools anyway. they were more from erm i don't know, boarding schools everywhere, well known ones, lots of etonians go wellingtonians, etonians i don't know, but yeah, they're quite good. oh sick! this woman is so skinny. who? she's nobody, she's just talking about erm how you tell yourself that your life will be perfect if you change the way you look but it's called, what do they call it? er it's called an imagined ugliness syndrome and it can lead to unnecessary plastic surgery or eating disorders. do you know i was thinking this the other day, do you think, say there was some girl like, let's just take flick no, somebody, who do, who do, who do the people think's real, who do the blokes always, yeah flick they think is a real frump don't they? if she went away over the holidays and she had plastic surgery and she came back looking like cindy crawford or, i don't know, do you think people would react differently to her or do you think they'd be disgusted? i think they'd be disgusted and say oh that's disgusting cos they know what she's really like. they would be disgusted. and they wouldn't touch her with a barge pole cos it's all plastic and all fake and people would just take the piss. i'm sure. excuse me. i have got a problem actually and i'm gonna tell you this without recording it cos i don't want anyone to know. even my finger's split because it's so cold. how disgusting. it's done that on the other one as well. mhm alright george. it has! no i didn't mean it. i'm absolutely freezing. is that snow? is that snow? no it's just frost isn't it? it is snow, look! what falling out the sky? oh my god it's snowing! it's snowing look. i thought i just it is snowing. saw something then. where? i can't wow! it is snowing. it just fell out the sky, only little bits. oh it is, tiny little snowflakes. i'm dreaming of a white christmas he looks really dodgy coming out of the woods like that doesn't he? he does a bit. oh sorry lee. yeah he does look i just can't believe you're walking coats and it's snowing. oh you sound like my mother! she's have a go at me about. it's not that i'm worried about you i'm just saying what? whatever you do can you pick my coat up for me please? wh where? cos i'm really desperate where from? what your grey one ? oh! what did he say? something si why did we go this long way? it's very cos we're stupid. it's not actually as cold as normal today. no because when it's erm snowing it's actually warmer, yeah cos otherwise it would be frost. haven't lost a thingy have you? no. good. inequitable, that means unjust. i just thought i'd tell you that in case you needed it in any of your essays. thanks . what was that look for zoey? oh god she's off again! you do look a bit orange come to think of it, in this light. do i? the tip of your nose. the tip of your nose is quite orange do you think it's only noticeable cos you know? no. what have you done now? i've just put fake tan on zoey. well charlotte you can hardly talk. why is that a fake tan? ah no but she does wear fake tan cos she goes streaky round her cheeks. hypocrite charlotte. yeah and charlotte's cheekbones seem to kind of descend from up, up by her temples as opposed to are you all going ? yeah. apart from me. i'm the only one left. are you going hannah? yeah. where to? we're going home. i'm going home. best friend's birthday's tomorrow, well tonight. everyone's birthday round now, my best friend's birthday was the other day. when's your birthday catriona? it's the twenty fifth of august she's a little'un. just sixteen. i am sixteen going on seventeen i remember i used to think they were so grown up. and you can't , you can't sing that song. it's cheating. i remember when i was about thirteen and listened to that song you just made me kick my ankle and it really hurt. i'm sixteen going on seventeen it sounded so grown up didn't it? i know. oh god i've got find out where i am. i don't have don't you? i don't know what i am. j. where am i? i think i might be h. i can't see. no because you're erm not si you're seventeen so you can't sing i'm sixteen going on seventeen. p. where's p? i am seventeen going on eighteen miss, doctor mr p, p mr , is that good or bad? where is dr ? who's ? can we go inside i'm freezing cold. has chapel bell not gone? what's going on? i think there's nobody walking around no, look there's god he's so manlike, he's too much of a man to be, oh god why am i crying? it hurts. it is starting. shall i sit with you today? yeah. can i sit with you at the back some time. there's always plenty of room always plenty of room i can't be bothered cos i've got to give foxy his shorts if you have to translate any of these, when as soon as after loopy. or then you need to take especial care, alright? time time time time time time time time is like a christmas card , time, alright? any time you've got a time clause clause, what's clause ? end of a cat's leg part of a statement it's what's gonna happen in it's gonna come down the chimney. right every time you've got a floppy black time thing with a tail that's the back of a cat. every time what's its name? every time then i still don't see what the relevance of that, that there's another one squashed behind my blackboard. erm every time you've got those words there in what i want you to do is pause into the time clause oh dear . and it is, it's gonna cost you marks, alright? for example then all of you do the inimitable nmts and would've lost a mark,the real thing is when you've got a time clause stop, think and really focus on this meaning of the verb in the time clause, right? there are little tricks, for example, if it's a time clause, when you think to yourself oh god it's one of those lists, you sit down and calm yourself, take a valium or whatever it is and just apply yourselves to that, right, what the next point is so the first thing i want you to do is stop at this time clause, when you realize it's a time clause i want you to go trot trot trot trot trot trot trot trot trot trot trot trot trot trot to the main verb, alright? now the tense of the main verb, in other words not the bit in the when clause or the as soon as clause or whatever, normally virtually it gives it away because if it's future in the main the chances are extremely high that it's going to be future in french at least in the time clause. okay? shall we do another one of those and pick up something neil said earlier yeah but i still don't understand what the boot's gotta do with it. what what? what that skating bit's to do with it. what what? that skating bit got's to do it's a it's a bell so it's an alarm bell. oh i see! and whenever, whenever you see a time clause press alarm anyway but what's the significance time right, so it looks like you've got future there, then you go trot trot trot trot trot trot trot trot back now you've got something slightly different there here you had der der der der der you said okay, future, then you went back there and you found that it was a present tense in english, right, but you needed a future in french because the whole thing is future. well that's future, but it's a different tense again. okay technically it's a future of the auxiliary of the past participle future of the auxiliary of the past participle don't know why i bother. so is it is the same? the answer is yes and no. ooh! right, what do i have to do? i dunno. er put your name in. how? right oh well let me get to this oh i've just cancelled it. i didn't mean to do that. can i get it back? can i get it back duncan? read these silly questions. how'd you do that? ah there, ah clear the system no i don't want that. clear the system. i wa i want to save it. there you are system. right please. oh shit! sit down the middle. none of that cheek. right yes i would say my friends er plurally. plural, friends okay, they're waiting for you as the train pulls in . right switch on round the back at the left push the disk in if it's a floppy disk version, if you haven't got a floppy disk er it's got its own hard disk, you don't need a floppy no don't press anything we're ahead of everyone. oh sorry . and then top left and select the chooser ah! select chooser. no you've gotta hold it down and then chooser, and then what? let go? yep. shh shh don't press that and when the chooser comes up i remember that one. yeah. and, and you click here, oh user name, okay? right what do you do? i don't know. i'm saying right erm do you press ? so okay okay? er yeah i'm fine. how are you? how are you ? right okay okay. okay? i just pressed okay. no you didn't. you've gotta hold it down and then let go. there. there. guests, we're guests. go for a guest today, right. ah. okay. good at this. i've got further than you, look. you're not, no wait. i pressed okay. i had a record week at the club this week monday night a lecture which wasn't very good, tuesday night a lecture by bernard which was extremely good, he's a painter i know. and i'm doing a book about his wife , that's what i'm just starting at the moment, this new book i'm doing. introduce him, rather a grand wednesday night a committee meeting which was terrible because the figures we lost nearly thirty thousand pounds in one lump in october, it's absolutely diabolical. and i mean you could a b m er er a top of the range b m w for that. i wouldn't want a top of the range b m w. wouldn't you? no. how much is my spider gonna cost? i don't know actually. what? you won't get much change out of, well i don't know i really don't know, i, i can look it up. they're not very good cars. they are. they're not. what's wrong with them? old fashioned, old fashioned handling, they were designed twenty, thirty years ago, there are much better cars, if you want a really decent sports car you should buy a, a nissan no but or a mazda or something. no but i like the look of the oth i don't want i know. a modern one. yeah well buy a morgan if you want an old fashioned one. are they more expensive than alf no i like alfa-romeos. no they're not very good cars to be honest. they're not are they incredibly expensive. no, they're not. i don't know what it is, i think i've got a book upstairs that will tell you the price of them. i wouldn't touch one. but what's my first car gonna be? it's not gonna be a land rover no. i can tell you that much. a, a golf. mm. but isn't the erm i thought the, the insurance of a golf is incredibly high. no it's not too bad for the golf as long as you don't get a g t i one, it's a bit more for a oh. well i don't think i want a golf if it's not a g t i. well you needn't have one then. what? well you needn't have anything, have a pushbike. a what ? a pushbike. it's what most actresses have. bollocks dad, that is just complete bollocks. i'm going to wait before i change my car until you've got your own car and then i are you gonna buy me my car first? erm i'm serious, i'm being serious yes. are you gonna buy my first car? i, i mean i don't have any shares. , shares? you've got you've got some shares, yes. is that what i'm gonna buy? is that what i'm gonna do? a combination. i'll give you some money and have some shares, yes, one way or another we'll finance it. if you cos i'll be quite late in getting my car and i'm gonna want it straight away. yes but you've gotta pass your test first. i know . want it straight away,i want my car ow! why will you be late? because i've got such a late birthday compared to everyone else. don't be so stupid. i do! what do you mean don't be so stupid? everyone else has their birthday sort of february march april don't be so stupid! everyone doesn't have their birthday in february and march, i mean the whole world everyone's bonking in my year you dad ! in august do you mean? daddy my year, i'm talking about my friends, i'm in the wrong year. you're too young? yes! yes well and therefore my no listen to my point, therefore my birthday comes later than anyone else's therefore i'm gonna be one of the last people to learn how to drive, therefore i'm gonna want the car as soon as possible. the last person to learn how to drive by about what, five months? neither here nor there. yeah. i mean i suppose it means that i can drink and they can drive. sick! you're actually bizarre. why ? you're quite bizarre, when are you going to start these frigging lessons? i'm gonna go to france. what do you mean i will and then and i'll come home for them. yes see on my birthday i'll start them. on your birthday . will you? excuse me. well that's very i don't know when you're gonna take your lessons, the problem is actually i actually! ideally you'd take your lessons well you can, you'll take them at haileybury presumably, i'm not how can i take them at haileybury? what a load of bollocks! you must have driving instructors there. daddy i won't be eighteen isn't it seventeen? is it seventeen? yeah. seventeen. oh. i think. they were gonna change it but i don't think they have yet. yeah bet, bet they will just to piss me off. i don't think it's changed yet. miranda's only just, well y two days ago miranda was sixteen. she's younger than you is she? yeah. so she was a whole year out. mhm. was it her on the phone? my no it was erm vicky. sound like vicky actually. yeah erm no no she's like this and she's erm are you doing anything tonight, you know, do you wanna go out or something cos i'm in london, i'm in a hotel, ya why didn't you ? cos i couldn't be bothered and i wasn't dressed and it would be going all over to south london. oh south london, mm. well obviously. what, are there only hotels in south london? well i mean you know, kensington type place. i see. west london. west london. south london always implies south of the river. well no no, not quite as far as erm putney but before that. and where's she at school now? stow, stow. stow. stow, what you mean stow vicky, yeah do, do. like in the derm , i mean the dorm, dorm and she goes oh i'm going out with tim are you impressed . no. did she say that? who is tim ? i don't know but she likes his name. oh i see. they're so naff, they're so when i first went to she was really like, you know,alright? alright darling ? no no one 's gonna hear it. i tell you the cleaning ladies are the worst in erm school. why? to be a cleaning lady all you need to be able to do is to say alright properly, with every,alright alright. alright. no alright? alright? alright? i'll just do your desk top and whatnot and if you can ask jess to clean the floor, alright? you d you don't mind if i do the hoovering now do you, you kn the 'oovering , sorry, and they've got this little flap flooted shuf flat footed shuffle excuse me, absolutely sweet, i won't hear a word said against we've got mavis alright ? and we had to go and do the washing up and they were sitting in the erm in the kitchen choosing their christmas presents from the argos catalogue oh that's nice, ooh it's five ninety nine jenny i'm serious. that's for her husband. that's what i that's what i would do. oh yeah? well i'll tell mum that . yeah. what so you'll buy her a bar of soap? something like that, yes. a bar of soap and well what can you get what could you get for five ninety nine? let's just see. not much but you know i'm not rolling in money, a poor man like me needs to look for sort of er simple presents. but anyway simple oh yeah. so what are you gonna get me then? something, i'm not buying you anything. oh thanks a lot. no i can tell you, i've decided that. why not? i'm giving you an envelope with some money in because whatever i buy you is no good, or u u useless, or you don't like it that's bollocks. i've had a whole series of catastrophes no you haven't. name one. so er don't name one actually, i don't wanna hear. no. they're all sitting in your room. i know what you're gonna say, i don't wanna hear shut up i'm gonna use it. what? the video camera if you're gonna mention that. well that was one of them certainly. and i'm taking that on the erm romeo and juliet tour . use it. the le the brown leather jacket. which one? i only bought you one. ow! ooh! so kind, ooh, ow. that was a disaster you've only worn that once. and i just go through all the catastrophes that i've bought you, so from now on it's cash, just cash. on the table. don't, don't you knock my silver spoon like that. what? that's an antique silver spoon. made in exeter in eighteen thirty. i couldn't give a shit dad. well i do. why ? don't you dare do that. shall i do it again? catriona stop it! just stop it. ow! i've got a stomach ache. i ate too much i think. tummy ache. erm erm what? what was i gonna say? oh good you've changed your shoes. i don't like those grey ones. oh don't you? no it makes you look like some, you look like, those are the sort of thing the cleaning ladies would wear . they shuffle around i don't care. it looks ridiculous cos you've got all navy and then suddenly these like bright white feet. i know. i'm a modest you look like a cat. i'm a modest man, i know my place in life. well where is this? what? where's your place? in the clouds? well where's your place? i have no illusions. and if i want to wear a nice pair of clarks' grey espadrilles so then i will wear them. oh how awful! how absolutely how naff! naff. naff, i knew you'd say that. would you like a glass of glenfiddich? no i don't like whisky. have you ever tri er glenfiddich, now that is not whisky no i don't want it. that is s that's nectar of the gods. what i do want is some wine to take back to school tomorrow, oh er i mean so you've said times. no erm that's too embarrassing, i don't want to hear that again. well don't play it to anyone else. i will. i intend to. well i'll talk about your snob shut up what were you talking about? no do will you be quiet? no don't, you'll ruin the whole er it's a survey yes? and er they don't want to know, they're, they're gonna transcribe everything we say i don't believe that. why don't you believe it? it's a survey you just talked about the cleaning people. yeah but not but it's not for school it's for some people outside school, it's a sort of well it's absolutely horrendous, they'll think my god the british class system is completely no it's nothing to do with you it's to do with me and how i sp so i don't feature in this? no. so i could just as well go and have a bath. well no well like i, i can sit and talk by myself, that'd be good. yes excuse me. speak to the cat charming, speak to the cat. oh i'll get a lot of response out of that. come on say something . they're not recording you. just catriona. do i get paid for it in something? only if you give me my money first, my allowance . i've given you your allowance. i've forty three is it december yet? no it's not bloody december. erm i don't know anything about being paid for it. nor do i. right so we'd be settle for how much we're going to get paid. i mean how much are you, you can pay it kronas or norwegian whatever they are. what? erm she says changing the subject. shall i go out? what the hell are you going to get, a flask? no i don't, i, i can't be bothered. i can't be bothered. it's too much effort and i've where would you actually go? probably i'd just go up to the pub but i can't be bothered. it's, it's, no i don't want you walking down to the pub in this, in the dark cold night. alright i'll ring up and see, i'm not going to go anyway. get tucked up in bed with a good book casualty. have those things on my bed. you don't like them? don't know where they've been. exactly. does dr and mrs , do they have any they have a dog, i've seen a dog yeah a nasty looking animal. actually it's just 's excuse to have a walk round behind the bike sheds. really? yeah at nine forty five. oh sorry! i don't blame him or anything, is that what you do why? you stand behind the bi no i don't, not me! bit sordid. well who then? well other people do. bit sordid. i don't. far more sophisticated. oh you're, you're the wasteland. no. it keeps stopping and starting. maybe it's voice activated. the battery's wearing out, actually i have listened when i laugh it comes on. what is? to be a housemaster in that girls s why? oh terrible. you'd, you'd whole life wondering what they were all doing what do you mean wondering bet you would dad, i bet you would. i wouldn't, well yeah but not with any sense of of pleasure, this awful thing of, oh my god get your claws off me all this busine ow! ow! ow! ooh my god! ow! god she's gone right through my trousers. oh god she's drawn blood right through the trousers. you're a horrible cat, i really have got stomach ache though. i don't wonder. oh look, look at that! wow! look! why do you say no wonder? i can't, i mean that really is just gross. you have the most it's like dracula. god. what'll they gonna say at the swimming pool tomorrow? dad they're not gonna be looking at your legs, i hate to tell you this. the attendants do. what, is it that fat woman that di spends ages pre making sure everyone's watching her before she dives in? oh god yeah . is that the attendant? no no or is it paula? that's mrs . oh i really don't want to know actually, it just makes me think of what? 's lane. paula i don't want to know about paula, what? is up in shrewsbury, shrewsbury, with mum singing a little but dad i don't want to know about that. why not?what they're singing? dad i really don't care. i don't want to know. they're doing haydn mass. oh ! you're so boring, i'm gonna erase this. yes. don't look at me like that. don't come anywhere near me either. it sounds like we're having an argument . yes i cat. get your claws off me, it sounds very, it's a sort of don't don't you come near me. dad! i've had enough of you, i know your sort. don't wave your tail at me either. shall i go and regurgitate it all up as will would say,let's go and regurgitate it all up. stick my fingers down my throat . last night i had the most disastrous game of badminton, or games, i've had in my, get off! whole playing career. don't tell me about them. i think, i don't i think i could just i could not move. i that is the one of the most boring things you could ever do you know why? talk about. shall i tell you why? i, it's worse than school. it's worse than listening to the cricket match. i know i've listened to hours of school. you don't have to listen to it! well i hadn't much choice have i? you wouldn't let me turn the telly on which is what most people want to do on a saturday evening, off off! what do you oh well you sound like a really boring old fart. quite. quite. quite. last saturday? i don't want to know. you probably were doing something incredibly boring. and then you went to the bayleaf or something oh. i d i really don't want to know. hello hello anthony . anthony, hello hello, anthony, yeah, anthony yeah anthony, yeah, yeah, anthony, oh hello . with the 's. do you remember the 's? yes, how could anyone forget fat kathy. she was very nice. big kath. big kathy yes . no you've wrecked my leg. i think i i really ought to learn my lines. not now, tomorrow. well i would suggest that you record them and then listen to them. what's th well yeah i probably will. yeah. i think i might take my flute back to school as well. oh. i don't have time to play but, i mean to play in a concert band or anything but i might go and knock about with it for a while. mm. couldn't you play in a jazz band with it or something? no i, i don't have time, it really does mean signing up for sort of long i'll be extremely interested in what? on thursday to hear the quality of the music, i mean that. it's really good. i'm sure it is, i've heard how good it is, so it'll be a first time. then in about two weeks' time we come to the carol service. that's gonna be brilliant. that sounded really nice the other day. now i think what? i think what? i have a lunch that day let's just have a quick check in the diary no, oh yes no no i'm wrong, something er no nothing, nothing at all. do we come at eleven thirty or three? what are you talking about? the carol service is either at eleven thirty or three. well i would find out rather soon because erm no no there is eleven thirty and three oh i see i was gonna say you've got to guess which one it is . no you must find out for us which is the one to go to. okay. i would prefer, actually i'll make it three because i can swim, no i can't swim, damn, either way i can't bloody swim. i don't know why it keeps stopping and starting. how long's it on for, an hour? i've got ten to do. or something. ten tapes. but i think the fact no no i didn't mean that, i mean how long's the carol service? oh the carol service. erm yeah i suppose about an hour, zing zing zing zing, it's got a really, it's got some really gay carols in. no scratching. you're asking for it aren't you? shall i ring granny? i haven't erm spoken to yarty yet. oh. i mean i haven't thanked her for the money she sent. no. will she be offended? she can't do it was only fifteen pounds. fifteen pounds i ought to write to her at some point. got to, yeah. and granny, actually i couldn't bear talking to granny right now. why not? go on, have a laugh. no. i don't want a laugh. don't mention what? aunty ann all her hang ups actually granny's got this thing about saving money in every possible way so you ring up and say hello and then she'll sort of, right now tha lovely for calling, thank you so much for calling, now bye you know and you haven't even said anything, you feel really no i know. why did i bother calling. yes. well there is a moral in all that and the moral of that is lovely to hear your voice. what? don't get to old age with no money. that's the moral. it really is not there's nothing worse in life than getting to old age, or getting anywhere with no money. they are hard up, you know, heavens they're run they drive a crapped out, clapped out old car and they live in a ghastly little bungalow in the middle of nowhere. miserable. i certainly don't want to do that, i want to a wealthy old man. and i want to be a millionairess. yes. no i don't. that's why i was thinking i might hang on to the volvo for another two years until you've got your own car and then i can buy what i really want. what is but what do you really want? well you're gonna say something absolutely ghastly like a mercedes or not not a mercedes, b m w no i mean a sports car. yeah! what? well i don't know, there are such good japanese coupes now, you know you see these lovely toyotas and nissans that they do the sort of two plus two and they're really lovely cars and but if i change c car this next year i'll still have to have four seater or, you know, plenty of room in the boot so i can pick you up from haileybury and all that crap, but if i hung on for another two years i could then get something i actually wanted, you know. well another two years car then i'm free to have what i actually want or what i would like. mm. something which is a bit of fun. and i can drive it too by then, two years. no you bloody can't, you can drive your own car. yes i can. insurance. well it doesn't matter, just have mm! to take pot luck. no no you'll come nowhere near it squire. squire! for god's sake . what does squire mean? esquire. oh. oh . you're not gonna record it oh daddy i am. no no how to have a row in five, how many words ? eighteen words . eighteen words, i guarantee it will work. where is mummy? she's upstairs. ow ow ow, hurts my ribs. do you think maybe i've cracked one? doing what? rowing? no. well it could be sore ribs from rowing. no it's not that sort. it's very hard work that machine. can you actually pull them back? yeah. you can. why can't you? have you gone all wet. don't be so stupid. wet and ugly. do you think you're good looking dad? oh shut up. oh!oh here she comes. facing this way because because you're gonna start laughing mummy sit down, i'm going back to school in about an hour and a half and you're flying off upstairs. i told you that. mummy. mummy. that's how i'm going to spend all new year's eve yes. barn dancing? what's wrong with that? i can't barn dance but i can have a jolly good bash at it. well they have a caller, don't worry. a cooler? that's where you go when you're pissed off? a caller. you always have a caller for barn dancing, you know, do you know how to set? look, i will be do you think he knows what setting is? no i do n't. s ask you a question. and a reel of three, can daddy dance a reel of three? that is something to do with i really don't care. ah! we'll have to teach him. i thought that was nathaniel . point is he's terribly good looking now. i know. how do you know? cos i, i makes your heart miss a beat. that's it, a stunner. how disloyal catriona. he is a stunner. god! no he's a very unfaithful bloke. well all the good looking ones always are. rubbish. how long's it going to take you to realize this. oh m what i was going to ask you is would you mind if i had a party while you were in dieppe? yeah i bloody would and you know that . absolutely not having a party while i go to dieppe. i don't see why not. oh it's no good julian, we can't go. oh we knew this would happen. i was trying to start an argument actually, in eighteen words. you've got to think how many words it would take to start an argument. well i tell you the best one is what? your shoes are horrible. that always starts a good one . your shoes are, oh that's four words. those shoes are horrible and she, mummy turned round with something about how i make her feel old, ugly and all sad and just because you think you're coming into your prime you little pipsqueak. some people, some people might find your mother more attractive than you. thank you very much dear. oh well they were obviously very no much disillusioned. not disillusioned more discerning. they're obviously men of the world who understand that people who have mellowed and matured i'd have to say that you it may be maybe have more to offer in t in conversation and company you might have got it it may be the fact that their eyesight is altering in their old age. than the first flush of youth and the first lick of eyeshadow. lick of ey oh disgusting! go on censor that. what. go on, cut it out. go bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz can't have that daddy, can't have that. no i haven't heard anything about it. i mean i know that someone got erm suspended for well it was all about derek 's attitudes to it and, and, and what he, what he would do if he found people with drugs at haileybury. well did i tell you we had to do this, i did tell you, we had to do this erm competition? no, don't think you did. dra er some of us had to do a drama competition mm. got a hundred percent for acting mhm. and it was money prizes but they took, they were looking for things to take marks off cos all the other schools doing it were state schools mm. and so that money prizes aren't gonna go to a school like no ours and so erm so they, so we would have come second had we had an, had we had an audience, i mean that's the ridiculous thing, it's the content, nothing to do with what, you know, the environment is it? so we got but we got a hundred percent acting or something and the two masters are gonna take us out, the five of us out to dinner. oh, yes. two boys and three girls. were you one of the five? yeah. what did you do? acted mother! yes but what? acted a little sketch. yeah what piece is it? is that nathaniel? isn't that no. you're as bad as your granny. she spends her whole life looking out the window watching who's going up and down. i think the only person that goes past her house is a cow, seriously. is that daisy? just checking it was very unfortunate last night they were telling jokes round the table julian yes. and there was this very charming medical student so i couldn't tell the golfing joke because i why not? well i wasn't quite sure how it would of course you it would have been taken, it was rather a pity. don't be don't be no i didn't like to but i just, don't, don't know him well enough. do you want to hear a good joke? yes. actually no they're too rude. go on let's hear it, let's hear it. geoff told me a disgusting one this morning. oh last night. well i'll tell you one that isn't what? i'll tell you one that isn't too rude. what do you do if a bird shits on your car? clean it off? don't take her out in it again . like that in front of people, i always say that say i mean sometimes you feel it coming in class or something and you just hold it yeah. but it's difficult. and save it for later. i know, no but i won't cry in class because somehow but the thing is though d erm aldo's always saying that when they see the girls crying at wellington they feel really guilty. i know it sounds like sounds like you'd be i know but it'd be different here. it'd be totally totally but don't you think though if a gi if they saw her cry they'd think oh my god hang on we'd better stop, this is a bit nasty, they would see i mean whereas well they do whereas her just sitting back and taking it, they think oh she can take it, you know it's funny isn't it? they just think oh they'll try it again. she's swallowing it. yeah. i'm sure that if they saw you cry, i swear to god if they saw you crying things would be slightly different. they're not completely heartless. well what i tried last weekend, not quite crying but i did a sort of moody sort of thing, i di i was really quiet and i just ignored everyone and i was like really like you know didn't say a word. yeah but they notice that cos they don't know you they did they did, andy came up to me and he said oh what's wrong, you know, and er andy yeah but andy's the only one that knows you charlotte. andy ? why? no but charlie did . can you butter mine? charlie did as well. he came up and apologized to me after lessons. who? charlie. the other day. jim and charlie said they were re you know that they really felt really bad. well i don't think what did he do? started, he did table jumping, charlie dared him oh upstairs. but did you realize that dare was for you? ha? that was the dare that started off everything else. why? because the dare was if he could do it properly, if he, if he, if, yeah. they bet that if charlie can, if charlie ran all the way up the erm it wasn't charlie, pete did it. no they bet that if charlie ran all the way up his tables yeah. split in the middle or something. pete, pete would yeah pete would have to get off with you and charlie did it. charlie didn't. no but he obviously did it when you weren't there cos that was the bet. that was the whole thing. that was the whole thing no yes it was. no pete ran all the tables. yes but then charlie did it. yeah but then charlie said no you're not doing it properly and if you can do it no that's absolutely crap because it's not crap charlotte that's what happened. wait a minute i've heard that from three people. cha charlie just told me it. wait a minute go on say, say what happened then. pete ran across the tables well you must have left but then the bet was if charlie could do it and do something like splits in the middle or something, can't remember what it was, then i w pete pete would have to go out with you. pete would get off with you. probably me cos er i think i was a bit provoking last night,what i was wearing . no so charlie did it, don't worry. so charlie did it what were you wearing? got down and said yeah. pete go on what were you wearing? no i like had leggings on and everyone was like in the shack oh spot the legs and really like i dunno what else were you wearing? oh i just, i was wearing, i, i had, you know my pink jumper? that one, and i had blue leggings on and everyone was going oh spot the legs, and then just going phew when they walked into the shack or something think, you know, i dunno, i'm just this toast is really nice. but, i know it's mighty white isn't it? but, no i went out, no what pete did is he ran across, ran out the door and then everyone left and that was it, i thought. obviously not, maybe they came back. no. well i don't know charlotte but the bet was definitely about but why me? it's probably cos i walked in and they called me over, i mean i why you? because you're so gullible, i don't know why you. no i was the only girl there, i was the only girl there. it's because, it's because, no it's because of what you did last week. no well i said to them i mean you're just a laughing stock at the moment. who me? yeah. is everyone talking about me in the shack? i didn't go to the shack tonight. what did you do? i, i was speaking to charlie in erm rehearsals. yeah. are you really shocked. what did you think when he told you? not really. did you think oh stupid charlotte? yeah i thought what a fool, i mean what did you expect me to think? i know. first person i thought about this morning was you. oh charlotte thank you . i thought god catriona's gonna kill me, she's gonna say well i'm not gonna kill you cos no. it's up to you what you do, it's up to you what you do, it's your life. i know but i was thinking i just think you're, you know, you should have i was thinking known, you should have a head on you girl. i did know i was just so angry to begin with that it just, they're, they're so well i can't, i can't blame you cos manipulative, you know, they yeah i mean obviously you're not gonna instantly assume that every that says he fancies you is just joking, no obviously you're not gonna assume that and i understand how easy it would be to be mislead but then on the other hand it makes me think, you know, you know with people like ch you know why, why are they suddenly so friendly towards you charlotte? why, they take the piss out of you all week and then they're suddenly all friendly and say how so and so no but they haven't, charlie apologized on monday and they've been really nice to me, been getting on really well with jim and charlie in lessons jim who? and,, and they felt really bad apparently and they'd apologized, you know, and everything was cool and i thought i was quite adamant though but they'd, they, i'm not used to this, you know, i'm quite naive as zoey says and i'm not used to boys as zoey sa no but i'm not used to all the boys like being around and they're really manipulative, you know, and they really, they're really cunning and clever, you know? and i'm not all there, you know? you are all there, they're just complete sods. well i'm all there but they're even more there. they're out for a laugh, i mean charlie won't even tell me who he fancies because erm he says, you know, he said to me, you know, and in, in, in, and in his exact words he said you've got to be really stupid to tell anyone anything in this place and i said yeah but i'm not a proper haileyburian i've just come in, you know he goes yeah but you're gonna get that way i mean you are, you know, you are now i hate to te i hate to break it to you but you are. and i was saying but i'm not cos i mean like day weeks he goes yeah but you're just as bad as all the rest of them, you would be and he wouldn't say anything, you know, he wouldn't even tell me that. well yeah they're older wiser though i mean we're just like new older wiser! they're not. no but they know the form, you know, we ca i can't erm i'm not sure and then, now i'm learning, you know, and it's li i'm learning the hard way and i've gotta carry on learning the hard way cos i can't break it, you know? well i thought i'd got over it this week and foxy and you were really nice to me and everyone was, you know? but then i just, oh shit and yeah i wish you were at the shack with me last night it would have sorted them out. it wouldn't have sorted them out it would, i mean how can i stop them? no but you would've said to me to, you know i had no one there catriona, i was the only girl in the shack i was the only girl there and it was just so well i can understand it being hard but i equally but you i know need your wits about you in this place. i know well i haven't got much commonsense oh for go that's no excuse! well why did i do it then? i don't know why i did it. i don't know why you did it either but it i don't know. i can't work it out. i know, i know, i know i shouldn't be angry cos it's not, you know, obviously you're not gonna think every time someone says they fancy you you're not gonna think oh god he's lying, there's no reason, you shouldn't ever think that i mean what they're doing now is just making you into a paranoid wreck. well no before that, i mean i'd been told before all this pete business yesterday night, i was told elliot fancied me and that was true you know? and i knew it was true but i didn't want it. i'm not being mean but he's a about elliot? no it's not mean it's yeah. well no i just didn't want to that was that. but there's no ne oh well they just wanted some fun, i know they did but there was no need to. yeah charlotte you always, i hate the way you always relent and you always say oh well, you know, i shouldn't be angry with them cos they just wanted some fun and you know, never mind eh, sort of thing and you know, you suc yeah but why do you succumb well what can i do? i don't know what i can do. well you know i know that some people do but don't back down afterwards and then say oh well never mind it was my fault cos it's not your fault. no one has any right to treat you like that. but you just said it was, i should have my wits about me and be one ahead of them. yeah but in the same way in exactly the same respect yeah in the same respect you shouldn't have to think that every time someone says they fancy you, you shouldn't have to think, you know, that it's a joke at all. that's not right. but you know, here, in this place, in haileybury alone, when you get out of here fine cos no one 's gonna know that you have this name, you know, for being a joke erm when you get out of here it'll be completely different but here you should keep your wits about you, in here you should think well hang on i don't know, just be more careful. i don't know what to say. i don't know what to do. don't do anything. yeah well lucy thinks i ought to be horrible to them but well no you don't have to be horrible you just have to go up and say make the point that oh god you're not gonna be made a fool of. but i can't make that point cos it just gets enemies and it just won't do, it won't do any good. well so you're just gonna carry on being nice and get loads of friends take the piss out of you. i , i mean i went like this into dinner okay, and i suppose everyone was like what's she doing in a skirt or whatever cos they were all like looking and then like half way when i was eating i could feel them all staring at me and laughing and jim and that lot were laughing and i could see charlie can i have a cig? mm? can i have a cig? you don't mind? i could see i could see li er charlie and pete looking at me from the other side of the room, charlie smiled and i just did i just went like that, you know? i won't open another one, should i? and when he passed me, i think charlie feels guilty cos when he passed me he said alright i just didn't say anything. i erm i'll make, i can easily make charlie feel guilty cos he, i mean he's a bit of a try-hard, you know, he thinks he's a lad but i mean underneath i think he does feel something sometimes. i don't know, i don't know what to say. i mean it's awful that they're doing this, you know i can't believe they're carrying on. yeah. yeah but then i suppose they're just immature little boys aren't they? just making excuses for them. well yeah but they don't have to like pull you through it as well. exa yeah but they are though aren't they? er i'm just so easy to you know that's why they picked you, if i was like if i was like you they would have done it to me. well the good thing about you is you're going out with someone here, that helps a lot. no but did susan, susan told me something about it, what did susan say to you? sue thought that pete was totally fucked off his head and really out of it. that's absolute crap, he was so he was as sober as the day comes i can tell you and it was just a joke. well maybe she was doing it to get pete off the hook then. well that made me feel worse actually. what? from my point of view, if someone was totally pissed and just got off with you and really embarrassed about it and thought, you know, oh my god how could i go for her i think that's, do you think that's worse than them saying, than it being a bit of a joke? i don't no. know which one's the worst. when you're pissed you just go with whatever comes, you know? i wasn't pissed. yeah i know but if they were saying that he was, i don't think he was. he wasn't pissed. and that's another thing, i was told that pete was pissed and sue seemed to think he got off with me because he was totally out of it, pete was. you can tell if yeah. you can tell. yeah but she was quite friendly with pete for some reason. can i borrow your spoon lucy? well he's so bloody clever. you know? pete? yeah, no, yeah well you know, really manipulative, you know, he could just get me round his finger i suppose. i don't know why i get too flattered you know. well what did he say? i mean he didn't say anything in particular, just the fact that, you know, we were just like walking along and just chatting away you know and he was being really nice and, you know, it was just fine. you know but what did he say? no nothing in particular, just a normal conversation. but was he a real smooth talker? was he a real charmer? not amazingly but just like he usually is really. well how is he usu oh i see, yeah you know he agrees with everything you say. yeah i suppose, yeah he does actually doesn't he? i haven't noticed that. how observant charlotte . really? well i've never thought of it that way. i've never noticed that. you've never noticed it? yeah you're right! actually thinking about it, he does! he does he agrees w i said to him i'd, i'd used some hair thickening shampoo, yeah? pete has never touched my hair in my life and there was some downstairs in that bathroom downstairs and i thought hey that looks a bit of fun, i'll have a go at that and erm and i was outside and i took my hair down, i'd just washed it and i said oh look, you know, i used this hair thickening shampoo do you think it looks thicker, as a joke, and he goes yeah it does actually, yeah it really does. i said pete what are you talking about, you don't know what my hair looks like, you know, thick or thin, it didn't er well it hadn't made any difference at all basically, and he was agreeing, and everything you say he agrees. i didn't notice it until that's like me. someone pointed it out to me. ah now you think about it, i mean there was this question in our maths test and i was chatting to him in the dinner queue about it and i was going yeah it was this and he goes oh you're probably right and he was agreeing with me and i found out later that i was wrong but he still agreed with me. oh god. i don't know how you could do that though. i just couldn't go and get off with someone just for a joke, i couldn't do it. bet you could. if your friends were daring you to. if we dared you to, but i mean it's qui it's qui i wouldn't. i don't think it dep if i fancied them underneath i would. yeah i mean i don't know if i, i don't, i'm not saying i could i'm just saying i bet if you had all that pressure then you would think of it differently. especially as pete, i mean he's a bit of a sort of one of them. no i think, i reckon that if you knew that the bloke was an easy pull, they wouldn't do it if they, if they knew they couldn't get the girl cos otherwise it would be embarrassing for them, but if they knew that she was an easy pull they'd do it for a joke. but apparently they know that i'm really forward which is absolute, actually not very true cos ed said that i was quite forward and he, i was only forward with him because the person i got off with just before him was bloody forward and it made me a bit forward but i calmed down after that, you know? ed was just like a one off and i'm not forward any more at all and, you know, everyone thinks i am you know and pete thought right i'm in for a good time here, you know, i can probably get her you know, and so charlie would have to carry out his part. about this? who? does george know about it? georgie ? don't think so. she'd be hard to get. no i think she wouldn't fall for anything. not because she purposely wants to be but because she just don't think she'd to done it, do you? bit of a i don't know. smooth talker though isn't he? but he fancied george for about two days like for two did he? what, so he's not very forward or er i think charlie's worried that erm, you know, doesn't wanna crash and burn. there's really loads of in france, is this like this in every school or just here? yeah. it's really funny though this is all a new experience for me, i've never really, you know it's quite sort of funny analyzing it all don't you think? well yeah if you're looking on to it but not if you're actually in it. now i'm looking on to it thinking, you know,but they're so, do you think, the upper sixth aren't like that at all though are they? yes they are, they're worse. there's a real difference. there's a difference in the way that the blokes treat the girls and talk to them and stuff, there's a very big difference. made a fool of myself well i said to him and then er they're not very gentlemanly like and foxy was going ha there's no such thing at haileybury another stupid comment from me. well, do you think that was stupid ? made me laugh cos we'd gone up to house tonight, he said he was making a real effort to be good and to and he, when he got up to house today he goes i was doing a really gentlemanly thing and saying oh thank you for a really nice evening, i started laughing well what was i supposed to? he made it sound like we've been our for a, you know, a romantic candle lit dinner and, you know, and we'd just been down to his study for god's sake! and that was wrong, i shouldn't have laughed. sorry. yeah but like, i dunno, i can imagine like people like rob and everyone taking the piss out of people and do it a different way. what do you mean? i don't know, he's just got a different approach about it, don't know much better. what? they're better? well not necessarily better, they're just more mature about it. i'm sure when they're all sitting around in their studies they're a complete, they're all the same but but i suppose they're all boys really, i mean are all boys like this really? no they're not all like that. i suppose, i don't know, if they're all together then but they're like you know, i suppose everyone goes through, i bet my dad was like that when he was younger a bit you know, all have a laugh and a joke and at someone else's expense, yeah. and then they grow up later, you know, and then become really responsible. oh they ne you never grow up charlotte, haven't you seen that? haven't you noticed? what? excuse me. you never never grow up. what, adults? they're just ch they're just children inside big bodies, old bodies. what are you talking men or everyone? everybody. it's just dawning on me now that i'm not rea i mean you know having had a conversation, proper conversation with my dad this weekend just me yeah. and him, my mother was away and erm i was with him and we went out he took me out to lunch and he took me shopping and stu well i mean he took, but he was really really, you know how your father always dotes on you if it's just you and him? and he bou he bought me this top and he bought me a, a polo neck and bought me a c d and then we went out to supper and then we went to a pub and everything and erm, you know, had a really decent conversation with him and just talking to him makes me think, you know, and it dawns on me that he's just a big he's just a big child and he's not, he's never grown, he's not, you're not gonna grow up. what you are now is how the yeah but what, what am i then? am i really really mature or something? no. in my attitude, you know, i, i think you know i think they're all prats and stuff and i don't joke around like that. no i just no i can't why am i different? what do you think? cos you're gullible. cos you don't see through a joke. you don't seem to notice. i don't why is that? it's because i'm honest. i never tell lies. i'm honest too but i can still tell a joke. you're n yeah but you know how you make fun of me sometimes, how you me? draw a lesbian thing and all that oh shut up . no but you know that, you know, you make, you lie and you play along and stuff no i don't lie, i fib! well fib then, whatever joke. you see i, that's where i'm different i could never ever do something like that to anyone. i'd feel so what am i doing? i'm not doing anything bad to you, i'm just it's not bad no, no but i'm just saying it's not in me, and so wh when everyone else is like mucking around, making fun of me, you know, i don't do things like that so i don't think other people can but they do. i know. yeah i think everyone's like me but they're not, yeah? i dunno talking rubbish. didn't sleep at all last night actually. cos you were worrying about it? yeah. like a cup of hot chocolate or something. i know i'd like some hot chocolate. oh actually i've got one left. oh. are you sure? er? are you sure? no we'll have half each. yeah i know, i that sounded awful, i mean are you sure you've got one left it doesn't mean you sure i have got one left, yeah, i just remembered. oh god i've just put black stuff over my face. do you want half a cup of hot chocolate? yeah i'd love a half cup. would you when you go to the loo, i mean when you go to the your room, wash that mug out cos it's got a bit of soup in it. okay. and just bring it back with a bit of water in it please. yeah, hot water? no cold water cos i want to some ribena before i have a chocolate. you look a bit peeved off. weekend. er? bad weekend? no it was alright. do you like this? like champion tops are usually about sixty quid and this was twenty. yeah they're ni i've got erm top, jumper really comfortable. it's nice isn't it? i wanted a grey one but they didn't have one. i, i've got a blue one at felixstowe somewhere oh i'm getting a cold here and i'm ha but i hope i've given it to pete you watch! hope he comes down with a cold in the next few days . i had it yesterday but you know how you just sort of start to get it, you've got all the germs but they haven't quite come out? yeah? mhm. you know, you know like you d i'm just getting the cold so like he'll have one, you watch sucker, i hope he gets it really bad. god! my parents are going to france at christmas and erm i don't wanna go with them really and nor does digby so he, digby's gonna come and stay just for a bit and my house it has to be empty and foxy's coming round to stay. really? yeah. we planned it just now. i mean digby's coming too so and there'll be erm my best friend from france,coming. do you want some ri if you want ribena just help yourself any time. so did george get off, get off with anyone today? george? . erm i dunno . did she? dunno. wouldn't you just kill for another piece of bread? some toast. toast that's what i mean. i was gonna bring some back and i thought no i won't cos i'll only end up eating it all this week and i've got three weeks left to get really in shape for christmas, you know, before i slob out and eat oh it's the feathers. is it? oh it was the best one last year the moment we get staff i said yeah how can shutting curtains make a difference? sit here waiting for it to and that's why your desk was pulled out. i know i wondered what happened there, i thought maybe it was the cleaners trying to hoover behind i really ought to change my bed clothes but i don't remember the last time i did it urgh. do you know so do you want to know something really really i think i've only done it twice this term. scabby? my mum washed mine at the weekend and they're in a pile on my floor and i haven't been arsed so i'm just sleeping on the mattress with the bare duvet. yeah mine's like that too at the moment. if er there's no, there's no bed sheet it's just the mattress and the duvet that's how i've been. i mean the bed sheet's like ruffled around the bottom. yeah but imagine how many bed bugs going onto i know. do you remember seeing me changing my duvet cover? no i have once haven't i? in the whole, two months that i've once as well. been here i've changed it once yeah we did it on the same night. but you've changed your pillow case and i haven't, i've really got to remember to bring a pillow with me. are you going home this weekend? i'm going to foxy's. saturday? for the weekend. really? not just on my own he just said that, it was a bit bad cos i, i said to him, you know, who's going and he listed like er reeled off, i can't remember, reeled off a load of blokes yes last night and i said are there any girls going and he said well i'll see if i can get laura and giles to come and i said yeah i feel much better about that, you know, whatever and then today he said erm look can't go and was a real,i dunno he's got something and he's usually like the real medium and he, you know, if there's e if there's ever like a pregnant pause then he's the one that like keeps it all going really ? yeah cos foxy was the one that used to keep the conversation you serious? no, no badly but like i just used to think he was so much more chatty than , we just used to sit there and go alright we'd get off with each other then we'd break like, you know like try, you'd, like the conversation you got off with ? yeah i used to like, we used to see each other sort of and i for a long time? no, no well the weird part how long? it was like spaced it was just like, i dunno, not long at all just a well roughly how long? couple of things we saw each other and then over a space of about two months we saw each other probably about three times oh. but it wasn't like a long thing but like i, the time that i spent with him was like quite a long time, like the evening, whatever, so he'd get, and like it just used to be constant pauses, it used to be terrible and so we used to get off with each other like you pause for, for what and you, did you like did you were you attracted to him then? yeah i was really attracted to him but i just could not speak to him, it was awful, and like there used to be awful pauses and you'd just go er right we'd better get off with each other again because you can't bear the silence, it's too uncomfortable so you used to, and then you go oh shit better get off with him again, it's awful, he's and he used to have such a, no personality at all. does he have no personality? no i don't think he's oh he was a real loud, you know mm? but, yeah, but anyway erm foxy said that you know he's not going and hugh is going, hugh is apparently really rude about everyone, especially when he gets drunk. who is hugh? because guy who reckons i don't know hugh you see because my friend got off with him on holiday he's little. no i don't,is fat, dark hair no not fat. is he good looking? yeah quite. would i like him? well what does he look like? just a da it's difficult to explain a bloke cos they're all, you know, short brown hair . do you know hugh? mm. hugh what? don't know, i don't yeah. shall i tell you? shall you tell . can go now so it's gonna be foxy you foxy no no no no no there's about five, five blokes and me and then if laura and giles can go is that you farting? yes, i've been doing it all evening, i was trying to suppress them all the way through politics lesson. god the heat, the heat is just hugh ? unbelievable, what is it? hugh ? you sure? upper six lawrence? yeah that's right yeah his number quick where does he live? haywards heath i think they should have phone numbers in there. mm yeah exactly, though some people could be ex-directory. mind you well no cos it's better receiving valentines card rather than hearing it over the phone really why they gave them out are you gonna send any, catriona i know it's a long way away but yeah? but? if you're still going out with foxy would you send a valentine's card to anybody else? oh. yeah? i don't know cos there's no one else i'd really want to send a va oh only no i would never send i would as a joke. yeah they would. no i don't, i don't, i don't think there's anyone that i really fancy, there isn't. i would outside school i'm d people outside school but i wouldn't, i don't think there's anyone in school at the moment that i really i'm dead upset that i haven't had any pornographic mail. pardon? pornographic post, p p, like you know are you serious? yeah we could write some really nasty stuff. we sat in the garden today luce and we got like, me lucy and tom and got about three pounds off all the little removes that came in how? cos you just sit there and, do you think you can lend me some money, please, i promise i'll pay you back, and they'll all give you about ten p, some of them give you fifty, some of them give you twenty got about, i was thinking you could just go in there and save up for all your christmas shopping couldn't you? just go in there right we got two chocolate bars yeah we could charge the removes for their first kiss. yeah we're gonna start a little business. up for it? up for it, yeah? you just say, you know, five quid for a cuss behind the bushes. and your first kiss. set up a little business and they have to pay us and then we'll give them their first snog. no you say that i once got off with someone for some cigarettes, i never felt so awful. i got off with someone for his hat. he had this wicked had this amazing boss hat no he was really he was really nice and i did actually like him. and i snogged him for it. and he goes to me it was a boss h you know boss the, the make, the clothes and the perfume and everything? he had this really nice cap and it was a really smart cap, i just really liked it and he was a bit of an ugly, well he wasn't ugly he was just really gormless and i said erm he must have been about twenty something and i said to him can i have your hat, he said no it's from a friend, it's sentimental or something was charlotte there? yeah and erm she was snogging someone else at the time i think actually no that was the night she was really pissed off because erm people were paying more attention to me than they were to her, i don't know why, it's because i decide that i'm gonna be really outgoing and i really do and i was really loud and really boisterous and she's quite resigned like that and she thought i sh bit shagged off with me and then like i was doing, there was this really good looking bloke and he was like we, we'd given each other eyes over the bar in this pub and lottie goes well if you don't hurry up with him i'm gonna go and have him, if you don't hurry up, you know, and just like marched over i said charlotte give me a break have you ever ? erm no, no i haven't ever. but anyway she had, he had this nice cap so i said to him, you know, can i have it and he said no it's sentimental and i said well i'll do anything for it and he said well, well er basically it just got down to well if you kiss me i'll give it to you and then, and then he decided that if i kissed him no. it wasn't good because erm i didn't love him and right so, so if i kissed him and met him the next day would i, would i snog, would, would he, he'd give me the hat so i said yeah sure, you know, whatever, so he goes okay and he like prepared himself and goes no i can't do it in here and so i had to go outside with him, snog him, got his hat and pissed off, never saw him again . i got six cigarettes from really? it's, no it's g it's quite good, you know, little weapon isn't it? well weapon, you can use it to your advantage. it is actually . it is isn't it? yeah being paid to do it . you slapper! what did you sleep for? a cap! right well i yeah your, here's, here's your christmas present i was on the streets for that . can you imagine your mum did i tell you about l b? she go we were all talking about, you know, christmas shop shopping, and l b comes in and goes yeah well when i was out christmas shoplifting yeah! you just farted again didn't you? oh right. classic fall over that bean bag today actually did you laugh? i bet you laughed i can just imagine your face. cos when you laugh so much you don't, no noise comes out, you just have this kind of me? yeah i did laugh didn't i? i, i w i was actually laughing my head off. oh no . it was like a, it was like a sort of, she just went and just fell over and i just saw this thing in the corner of my eye and she just lay there looking up going . anyway i'll see you later. bye. i recorded that conversation. did you? mhm. really? a smile comes off of your face when you realize what we were, what you were talking about at the beginning. oh! are you still recording now ? yes i am. lush lush lush right. cos the thing is i've got two days left of this thing. oh the thing about the kitten wasn't on there was it? about it. erm hang on i've got quite a lot, i'm meant to be going to choir tonight but i really can't be bothered, i mean say you've got to learn or something. yeah so if, if, if, i was gonna say if foxy comes, if comes up and says erm my dad's just got back from apparently millie's quite brown and my mum they're not is she? back yet, they're staying a bit longer. occupation oh tweetie tweetie. who was i talking to? did you know sue-anna's sixteen on actually i think it was on re recently? maybe yesterday? oh my god! she's young! or may or maybe it's tomorrow or friday, it's some time this week but she's not sixteen yet. i know that she's sixteen some time this week, it could be tomorrow actually. so she's not god i can't believe it, it's hard to believe that, okay now i'm doing the same only with you lot. isn't it really annoying doing that? very annoying, i can't wait to on friday. but what i don't understand is what is it for? i don't know, i really don't know. cos i thought it'd be like you know for, you know like political things but you can't have no it's not. conversations like this on talking about shagging your boyfriend . mm. i bet the school's gonna listen to it. they're not, they're not. my parents are coming up tomorrow. are they? for the choir thing? yeah. are you doing it tomorrow, yeah? yeah i have lucy are you going to watch? thing is tomorrow? what time is it? eight o'clock. eight o'clock. till? dunno, it's in mass. probably no, i don't like mass, don't like it's very good. i like the singing. i do actually really like the singing. it's not it's not a service it's not when i say a mass it's not got preaching or anything. it's not, they won't have any no it's a singing mass, the mass in time of war. haydn's and it's really really nice. oh maybe, i will actually to go. i don't think it can go on that long because lucy would you like to come with me? i might do yeah probably tomorrow night. unless i've got loads of work i'll come. what i was gonna say was erm i need a black skirt has any, have either of you two got one? i've got a black straight one. oh you've got a tight one, that'll look horrible on me. yeah and i haven't got my one i left it at home. oh shit. why haven't you got your one? i keep forgetting it, i left it at home. what are you gonna do? i'll just wear my black oh right. jessica that's really disgusting. i'm sorry, i'm so windy tonight . i really hate it when you burp. do you have a black skirt? only a short one. what am i gonna do? somebody must have one. oh er i've got to learn a poem to recite tomorrow, when is my what for? shit!my skirt. god it's first lesson german, deutch. and it's difficult to do when it's not your language. what's that? it's a gameboy. is it? what's that? what? whose is it? shh shh. whose is it? cos erm oh i've got to pr i've g no but me, i was, you know on sunday? i was we were playing this and erm they were really good because they'd obviously played before and i couldn't and they just kept it was really funny cos i kept getting like two and getting like two thousand or whatever and i want to do it really well, i'm playing them again but they wouldn't so it i want some more chocolate, i could really do with another boost. a boost, a boost, cadbury's boost oh turn that off it's a really nasty noise. right! anything you say dear, you've been away in the san, you've been out foxy didn't think that lottie was stunning. who's lottie? you know, my best friend. oh. nice to say. no, no no no no cos he, you know he's not gonna say no i don't think, he just said i know but i don't think she's that incredible. i think she's very pretty, don't you lucy? i think she's he goes well maybe the photos just don't compliment her and i said yeah but they, i think they did, they're really complimentary. i think but the thing is i can see like from that er she looks very pretty but it's not so much she looks very pretty there, i can tell that she is very pretty. mm. you can tell. but it's quite an unusual look, i mean ma perhaps he doesn't find that attractive. he goes well girls, girls she looks very modelly to me. could she be a model? mm. he said well girls erm how, is she tall? find different girls find yeah yeah. find girls attractive yeah i know that's true cos my brother yeah my brother's like that as well. yeah, no she's not immensely tall she's about five six? not tall at all really. i mean she's always wearing heels no so she always looks about five eight or something. look frank gave me eleven out of ten. really funny ? i don't know . he is really quite strange. i was quite impressed with it though, look at all those ticks. i know. right i'm gonna get down. look at this mess, where do i start? yes i bye. what mess are you on about? all this mess on my desk. i'm gonna read this through cos this is very important, it's chaucer what? that ca that what, all those sheets? yeah. i'm gonna read it through and then i'm gonna do some german and really get, hang on, all these letters oh so popular catriona i never read you this, it's from er my secret admirer. oh what? go on then. oh it's, it's an old secret admirer, yeah? yeah. about two years ago, he's from my old sch er he's from another school i mean he's from, not from this school. dear catriona i could guess you probably worked this out a long time ago but i might as well get it over with once and for all and i finally managed to summon up the courage to do so, a s a, a secret admirer, no longer exists, he no longer admires secret or otherwise and hasn't existed for almost a year now and again you probably know who he is but i might as well tell you it's me johnny the eleven year old, now fourteen, you met at christmas ninety and boy do i feel stupid. i'm now at boarding school as well in arundel north hamps hampshire how did he get your address here? hamp i don't, he didn't he sent it to home. yeah. you might have heard of it and you might not. i suppose looking back on what i said at the time it was true and i did really love you and i still do but now it's not sexual or romantic, it wasn't sexual then because my mind was too pure and partly because you were such a huge chunk of my life, one seventh, and i think i always will don't know what that's su oh it's love you i suppose for you it must have been such a small thing and at fifteen stroke sixteen you can probably only just remember me i was fourteen actually i was the middle son who wasn't properly blond unlike the brothers and hung around near you far too much. it seems ironic that that for me it seemed how old is he, fourteen? yeah . bloody good. it is isn't it?it seems ironic that for me it seemed such a big thing, in case you still need it clear i was william's nephew. i didn't get on very well with harriet and i wasn't either of the williams it's tim annie or either of the harriets, no shit. p t o i suppose it's unlikely that i'll ever see you again but we might see each other at william's or something and if you ever need to speak to me for some reason you can call me at school or at home and he's put both his numbers unlikely or not i hope i do see you soon again. j . sweetie. shall i ring up and say look john i've got such a problem! ah ! you can really solve it for me. right, work. going to do some work? am i? yeah. i'm doing work. alright alright alright, i'm turning off and going to work. see you. bye. bye. mm? do you want me to bring my camera? what to? to the last week of term? oh yeah. i'll just take one of those what, video? camera or the, no, actually i've got a video camera so've i. i can but i don't know thing is it's a real hassle carrying it around isn't it? and setting it up and everything. no we could just do like something with us in here. but if i bring in my camera it means definitely camera. i'm gonna bring my camera back. we can blow up the photos if they're like quite good ones yeah! and stick them all over the room. but, and we've got to get some excellent ones. when i went into erm the annexe the walls, erm like i in albans, honestly the walls are just covered in photos, you know, and they're not so much people outside school but people in school, you know, there's all the little, there are all the kind of groups, people and couples and it's really sweet. really nice. cos that looks pretty good. so if we just get like some stupid photo and we can like dress up and put make up on and really look really pathetic and we can do our little you know, dot dots on there yeah we've got to do that. and then you know got to do that. definitely. my parents are gonna be here in it's twenty to eight, they were, they said they'd be here in ten minutes and i've got to run down. erm yesterday ya? did i have another conversation, jess and lucy so i must have had another conversation with you last night then jess it was about foxy and we, we were talking about erm this with mr i said yeah it's really annoying me cos every night before i go to bed, you know, for the past week we've had like an hour's discussion, totally nothing! we've repeated ourselves and all this lot and he said well no if you're like coming out with sayings like chill out man you know, the person would like she will then like record that bit, play it, get them to say what you've just said, can you tell i've got a cold? get them to say what you've just said and and erm then she'll like tell them why it's chill out man, not because they're cold but you know oh i see . i mean he was just saying this and he was coming out with, you know, stupid words and it was really funny in the lesson, it was brilliant. i've only done two s two tapes, i've where, where are the other tapes? i don't know. what on earth have i done with them? they're over here you dick. no i know i know but where are the ones i've made? oh god! i'm in a state, i just don't know where anything is. what's wrong. ah one i'm sure i did three tapes. obviously not. okay it's get worried time. god! how come your mum and dad are coming? just to see you yeah? no they like music. it must be something to do with you. can i, oh yes tape five? lucy won't mind will she? tape six. this must be ooh . i can't believe i did that, i'm to regret that so much. what the did you do? oh i see with sal. oh i know. i can't believe i did it four. i feel like cruising and crying i really do because no no don't cry, don't cry. no but it's so ridiculous. tape three. why have i got tape three in here? i must have tape two i mean tape one. maybe charlotte's taken it. oh my god i've lost it! all that work, well oh here we are, tape one and tape three so i must have only done t two tapes, not very impressive. when's it gotta be in? tomorrow. she won't be mad. but i mean kathy 's only done like one side apparently and lucy don't run off with that skirt cos i'm wearing it tomorrow. okay. cos i haven't got another cos lucy's got my dark one. erm tape one, here we are. tape three obviously hasn't got anything in it. parents get here now. please come, hurry ? yeah cos, cos they've got to get their tickets off me. oh can i have that other ticket? sure can babe. luce did you take my set today? yes. you did? oh thank you i wondered where it went and i thought oh shit i've lost it. thanks so much. what's wrong? where would it be? jump, yeah? scrooge i'm cringing. i'm furious. romeo and juliet. there's a massive romeo and juliet rehearsal on friday. it's, it's not tomorrow? yeah it is tomorrow. two o'clock. two o'clock yeah but it's not i'm going to the theatre in the evening. are you, who with? foxy's taking me. no no erm what was i gonna say, where am i going? er tale of two cities, i really need to see it though cos i don't understand. who are you going with? s erm just my english set. i it's not our exams can't be that serious if we're like got these things on surely? they're not serious, they're not serious at all. i think they're just to scare you. c can you wait for me lucy? ya. i said i'd get george as well. have you, have you done it no but he just, he just said well what is it d was it the like kind of situation where you're gonna have to carry it on so that he yes. what so you've got to think of something now to say? yes. well you've started now so oh it'll be okay. i mean no, i don't know what to say but there're so many things that she said that tt i'm not speaking to her again, i, i know i shouldn't have done it. you know you don't, just don't speak to exes do you really? i've spoken to han about tom and i've regretted it like anything. i don't know. it wasn't because i didn't like what she was saying, some of it i didn't like what she was saying but other things i didn't want her to know. exactly. but mm mm god . did you say a lot? did she? did you? did me. i said a bit but oh i don't know, you know what it's like don't you? catriona your mum's downstairs. oh br oh madeleine you look stunning. madeleine you look so nice. thank you. oh babes, have a kiss? let's have a look, have a look. have you go are you nervous? no not yet. let's ha madeleine well look just look out for me oh wow! did you buy it? madeleine ha? did you have it made or did you buy it? i bought it. your mum's downstairs i'd better go and find her. isn't that gorgeous? yeah it looks really nice. you look lush babe. you do. but you've got such an old fashioned approach charlotte, erm because your approach is ban everything, stop, lay the rules down, i dunno a hitler kind of approach er doesn't get anyone anywhere. approach, that's why everybody can't, you know, everyone has to conform and it's like well not really, look i don't have a short skirt. go on catriona, i might no no because you want, you reckon that the way to stop things is to put, have rules on everything you know? i know it's a stupid phrase but you learn by your mistakes and i'm telling you too it's bloody true. i know i've learnt a few things by huge mistakes. you do learn by dave obviously didn't know. no. right. yeah but there's so much damage to you. you saw that film, you saw what happened to that person. it's awful. yeah i'm saying they're being educated aren't they? they're being educated, if they ha if they haven't learnt their lessons, if they haven't, if they haven't paid attention in class it's their fault. it's their fault. i know but you see they'll regret it later but they need a bit more i'll listen to this in the morning. no don't you dare. they need a bit more did phone jess? yeah. make the room look nice right. well, this bit of it. oh i'm starving actually. okay. er erm right i as well. no you've just got this conform this idea that you know by banning everything everyone's gonna it's like this it doesn't work like that though. goodnight. goodnight. it's like this bulger thing, yeah? yeah. they're trying to blame it on the parents but you don't get a set of bum! you know, rules for bringing up your child. i don't know, it's not the parents' fault. well i don't know anything about it but i think you can't be responsible for what your children do. no but some people think it is. night. night. oh. cos you don't actually have that much so therefore while he's at school no it's like guidance though so they're responsible for what you're doing, okay if the school didn't say don't smoke a lot more people would. what? they might. if the school didn't say don't smoke? the c the school didn't, you know, there wasn't a rule saying don't smoke and then you get busted and all that well exactly, that's the whole point! if you're allowed to s that's the, that's the point yeah i know but if everyone went out if you're allowed to that's the point! yeah i know if you're allowed to then everyone, more people do it. no. bollocks. people might do it at first, there might be like an epidemic of wow it's so cool we can smoke at school but then after a while they'll think but it would just wear off they'd think well you know it's not such a big thing now, i mean it's not, i mean part of the fun is the risk for a lot of people. yeah i go on holiday mm. and there is so many people smoking where, in the pubs that i go to and i don't have it cos i think it looks disgusting i come here and because we go around in like threes and it's, you know, sociable isn't it? and, well no it's not sociable but because you come out and it, it gets you away from here because you've got so many things on during the day you want some time to yourself and because you, we've found us a place that we won't get busted and we know we won't we go in and have it but i can guarantee that if we were, like walking into this room, if it was full of smoke it would put me off straight away. so when i pe when i sit, when i think oh right i'll have a piss up session this saturday and i see one of my friends getting absolutely slaughtered it puts me off straight away because i think oh stupid, what, what a waste. okay you've gotta have certain rules yeah but it might not work you see that's a big risk for a school to take and anyway the parents would be against it. that's why my dad thinks the same. what? he thinks what? about the smo about the smoking. it should be made legal? no. it shouldn't be made legal? he thinks the same as you, it should be banned and strictly sort of i don't. no no my dad thinks, he said he, he just said, he said cos when he was at wellington he said there was this one boy and he used to go out under a bush or something and smoke and smoke and smoke all the time and stuff and he knew and everyone knew you see and he said that's fine, you know, you can go and do things like that as long as you don't get caught but like doing things like that in house and, and it's like you're the ideal for the removes and the younger people in the school, it's like they see all the upper, lower and upper sixth smoking and screwing and they think god we want to go, we want to go and try it out, you know, cos that's sheep but that's ridic no that's, but charlotte wh when you're eleven years old you don't look at someone else and, and yeah well they are sheep, they're vulnerable, they're little boys oh that that is such crap! just because they're the youngest year in the school doesn't mean they're gonna go round and, you know erm and copy what oth no that's, no i'm sorry charlotte but they are vulnerable though, they're but when i was eleven years old i didn't look at the sixth form and do jus just because they were doing something i wanted to do it, i might have admired them but if they were smoking that wouldn't make me want to smoke. no but they are vulnerable though, they no but not they're not, that's just they are. they're not! oh i think they are. i was always too good so i don't really buggered up just t keeps stopping and starting, oh! is it on again? yeah. no i'm sorry i don't agree with you there. i hate this thing about you know you're making a tt er er you're setting an example for the rest of the school, you know. but don't you think that what? do i think that we're setting, we are setting, us personally are setting an example for all the little people? no. not personally, the, the whole not at all. i don't think, no i don't think they're even con i don't think they're even concerned with what we're doing, i don't think they even notice, they're in their own little worlds. i don't live my life looking up to other people, setting my life on the example of others, yeah fair enough well no you don't, yeah but like in house, like, like yeah so why should they? just in batham all those removes having to look out for the sixth form smoking yeah but that's n that's silly. they know that goes on yeah it is silly but if they try it and they like it then it's their life, they can do what they want. i know but they, they think is this what people do? i don't think it does make no they don't. they do, they think people did it to me so i'm gonna do it to them they just do it as a way of getting back, it's not is this what people do, they know it's not right they just do it because they think well we had to sit there for hours on look out so they can too. it's sod's law. yeah they've gotta carry on and this is such a sexist comment but boys are taught about all of this stuff before we are they've got a lo lot more idea about drugs and all that lot than most girls are. but the thing i think, no but like with drugs, say you had a talk on it class of like removes it wouldn't make any difference. and you had a talk on drugs, you know, about things, i think it makes people curious. so what do you want them to do, not show videos at all what so you want to and let them find out the hard way? that's a true statement because i was told that by that, that is, that's another kind of victorian idea you've got there no no if you start lecturing you know don't mention people and telling them all these things about things they don't really know much about like drugs they take in what so you leave them naive and stupid and then something could happen and they no but then, no but they're not saying when you get, when you but then they become curious and try it. when you get high they can't cure it cos they just haven't seen a no, curious they're not saying when you get high about what drugs do to them so they go and try it. you have a really amazing time they're saying when you get high this happens then it can usually result in this i know but they'll think no but the bit that this happens, you know like they do get high because i mean take drugs no a lot, a lot of things to do with smoking, drugs and alcohol is to do with in your friends and, and who, who you go around with, it's got nothing to do with how much you're taught about it i don't think. and it's got to do with the individual as well. peer pressure it's called. what? peer pressure, people do it cos it's sociable or something don't they? no. no some people do. like at a party some people at a party smoke yeah th they just smoke, smoke socially. don't you think luce? yeah but you find most of them don't inhale anyway so it's not doing any damage. passive smoking's just as bad. so what do you want, you know? party and then no one goes into the bit where everyone's smoking cos otherwise they'll die. yeah no but i mean passive smoking is just that's, that's, that's the way that self erm s smoking is so selfish because you can't get away, you know, whether you're not smoking or not you're still getting the worst from it. i'm so bunged up. no but i mean er it's,n not telling people i think pe i, you know, i think that's the worst thing to do. no no they should be aware of it. well that's, that's your idea of, your idea though i is, you know, to they should be aware but they shouldn't be like i they shouldn't be informed and i think that's wrong. no no no they should be informed, they should know about everything but i don't think they, they should but you can't have see everyone else doing it and think oh well maybe we're meant to do it. but charlotte that's stupid. cos you've got an opinion and you're gonna stick to it but everyone is totally different, everyone's got a totally different view on things. yeah but sometimes they don't because no but charlotte that's ridiculous you don't look, tell me do you look at some people and i do have you ever looked at any people, saw them doing something and think oh that's probably what, well that's what should be done? i mean you never look at someone and say, i mean apart from your parents no because that's me cos i'm quite apart from your parents and you think they're wonderful, you know, they know everything don't they? you get really annoyed when they don't know everything and they do and they can't answer your questions, apart from your parents i don't think there's one person, well me anyway, there's not one person i've looked at and thought oh well that's what should be done. you know i'll watch them and think maybe i'd like to do that but not, not, you know, judging, not sort of using them as a kind of measure stick you know to judge everybody by. that's ridiculous. my dad was once testing me on my biology and we came up to these films and the subject of drugs and i said just, you know, just as a joke and i thought he would just laugh it off, i said have you done any? and he said yes i've once done l s d and he said if you get the chance do it because you can't go through life, you know and not do it, you know, it's something that you will do, you'll find that all your friends will when you get older you know just don't get addicted. that's the thing and now he's said that to me i'm not going to. yeah cos he's let you, yeah. co because he's let me i'm not going to do it because i'm not really gonna get a thrill out of it. that's probably like me. i'm allow yeah. i'm allowed to do anything, my mum will let me drink, smoke, take drugs, anything really, well well she probably wouldn't actually but, you know she never tells me off, she's never lectured me about anything, she's never given me a talk on yeah but charlotte she probably doesn't even think you know. i know, well no she does know, she said to me in the car once you think i don't know anything but no but my dad was like saying but, but i don't because my dad was saying, you know it's, it's when i did it it was really good and everything, you know, as long as you don't get addicted it's okay but try because you're going to when you get older, i wouldn't want to try smoking just in case i liked it cos i wouldn't want to. fine that's, that's then but now my dad's given me permission to do that i'm not going to. it's quite true that plus the fact that one of my friends thought it was a really funny idea if she stuck half a in one of my drinks and i almost died so that's beside the point. she did? yeah. she thought it was really funny. it lasted twelve hours and that was the worst twelve hours in my life . did you go high or low? but no well sometimes it has a reverse effect on people. you know everyone was walking like my hair i didn't know where i was everything that people said would like just echo in my head. where were you? i was in this club up in london and she just thought it'd be really funny. did you take alcohol that's so awful she could've killed you. what? she could've killed you. yeah. did you take alcohol with it though? do you still know this girl? no. what, can you die on half of one? yeah. depends on what's in it. ooh ecstasy the d it depends what you're body's like, you can die of anything. and it also and it also depends what's in ecstasy cos people put all sorts of shit into ecstasy nowadays, you know, they just, you know there's like r rataseed and y you know, stuff that you put on the lawn and, you know cos it, it's cheap isn't it? they can make a fortune, they can sell these tablets and and sell dud things. yeah and they can sell duds and they're, you know, they're not missing out, they'll be making money and it can kill you, and it can kill you even if, you know, you can take the real ecstasy and it can but supposedly what's good about ecstasy is that it's a designer drug and it gets you on a really good high and you know you dance a lot and you feel crap. you sweat a lot and you're supposedly meant to feel good for so long and then it's meant to wear off and there's meant to be no hangover effects or nothing and that's why it's a designer drug and that's why it you know, it's supposed to be so good. but because people mi mess about so much it kills. really good? why what do you think like jim taking drugs in school? what do i think? not but do you think like something like that, what do you think the school's responsibility is? exactly what they've done, they saw him and they suspended him. yeah what c what more can they do? they can't put raiders on, radars on you, they just keep track of what you're doing every day no and do you think that's enough? to suspend someone? yeah. mm. yeah well if he gets caught again he'll be expelled and if he's dealing, any dealers cau caught here they'll be expelled in instantly cos they're actually causing harm to other people. that's the other thing though, you should have your own mind, so what if you're a dealer? you should what? in your opinion if you're offered something like that you should have your own mind and if you want to take it that's your problem. yeah. why is that so bad for children? why is it so bad? it's not bad, we're saying that the rules here are that if you're caught dealing you're gonna be suspended but no you're expelled. i mean you're expelled. yeah. because there you're, therefore you're causing not only harm to yourself you're dealing supposedly but you're, you're er er could be harming, yeah you are an influence on other people. and harming other people. influencing you see, there's that word again, you said there is no influence. it's totally different when you're taking drugs and when you're dealing them. yeah if you're taking it you just want a laugh and you know you're not affecting anyone else but if you're dealing you're pressing other people to buy it. there's that other thing, pressing you see, you said that no you can't infl you know it doesn't matter that you influence people. no there's no set rule about this though. i know it's a different subject like this is drugs and the other thing is smoking but like it's still the same if people see you do it people take things off you. do you seriously think that if you went to a school and it was like, you know, all cosy, you know, you had dealers and weren't allowed to smoke, you weren't allowed to drink and you weren't allowed to take drugs do you seriously think anyone would go there? no they wouldn't and they'd all break the rules and it would be biggest and it'd be worse. cock up in, you know in britain and it would just be the laughing stock, i mean you can't do that, you can't shelter everybody i know you can't, i know you can't but i think and pretend, and just block things out and pretend they're not there. i think people can do as they please and they can make up their own minds but i just don't think that all, everyone else should be like advertising the fact but it's not as if , you can't do much more though you know? they s they seriously can't do much more than if they catch you they suspend you there's not a lot more that they can do. what suspend well they can finally expel you but it's a vicious circle, i mean it goes on and on and on, if they expel one person, there's always gonna be ten more. what? if they expel anyone else though isn't it? if someone's expelled for drugs you know don't you think everyone else would think hey, you know? yeah. but there have been people expelled for drugs. it still hasn't stopped it. if so if someone wants to it hasn't stopped it at all. for a long time huge there's been huge drug busting over the last two years. huge amounts of people have gone, i mean andy , him being expelled, that was just an excuse oh yeah he was a drug wasn't he a dealer? erm and that was just an excu h him being expelled for driving someone into town was simply an excuse because he'd been caught so many other times. i know it was the last straw of many. yeah. but he's gone and people know why, really why and erm that's not stopping anyone. don't you think it makes any impact? what? don't you think it ma you don't no because if you're addicted nothing's gonna stop you. erm not necessarily addicted though, they just like it and they just wait until they get caught then they suffer the consequences themselves. i can't see it though because you see i don't do anything like this at all nor do i. so i find it hard to see why people are so desperate at school to do all these things. knows that loads and loads of people go out there and smoke by the you know yeah. it's so obvious, you see all the fag packets yeah. he walks past there, if he really wanted to bust us that bad he'd probably just come up and say right what he does he, he if he's walking his dog and he sees you and he passes you he's got to bust you. ? i don't know. i'm gonna find some money and ring. what? i'm just going to go and find some money and ring. does it take little fives? no. ooh. do it by card. i've got ten p. i've got twenty, it's just swallowed twenty of my p i put it in before she answered oh how annoying. bye. bye. bye. bye. how's your score doing? not very well? okay i'll it's just like, no two girls got expelled from my last school for drugs but i think they actually one of them gave it to the other one but they were both expelled. do you believe in ghosts? i don't really know cos i haven't really experienced anything no but i mean i've done a ouija board thing. that work? we well i wasn't actually i was watching but i was quite surprised. did it work? oh gosh yes it i've heard lots of stories as well. i'm never ever gonna do that again. did it about five years ago a friend of mine did it erm they didn't burn the erm the spirit when they'd finished and erm you know you're meant to actually put a piece of paper under and burn it under the light or smash the glass and erm for the next six months she couldn't sleep properly and it felt like there, she was like tormented and erm things were like pulling at her, her bedclothes and i swear she's like seeing a psy a psychia psychiatrist and she had to sleep in her parents' room and everything really scary. yeah i know, i really i just said you should try not to think about it. and she'd like come to school and she's just such a wreck. what? try not to think about these things. er no i don't know why what do you think? do i believe in them? yeah. well i think there's something there cos some things are er don't have any logic i had a ghost in my house in france but i've never seen anything but people have. i'm not sure, you can't can't say unless you've experienced things i don't think. yeah you can. yes you can. well not but the, no i'm saying i, i don't like to make sometimes it's an assumption on no evidence. oh i'm going to go to bed i'm quite scared erm i'd be scar i mean i'd be scared if i saw one but be interesting at the same time, i sort of want to and i sort of curious but yeah very curious. i haven't really thought about it for ages actually. are you going home this weekend? yeah. god i think i need to have a break from the shack. what? i think i need a break from the shack. are you going home? is it your last one? i daren't walk in there ever again now. aren't you erm what's happened with pete ? how much have you done? erm erm two tapes on the end of my second tape, i'm hoping to get on to a third but it depends how erm far this conversation goes. fuck . what's wrong? how much have you done, a quarter? oh i have to or, or i won't fill it up. yeah i mean everyone's got do you want some cereal? no thanks. gets them really pissed and there's like really? why teachers talking and everyone just buggers off everyone buggers off i mean you sit around the parents' car and you have the lunch with your sort of so is there a sports day then? erm they have cricket like sort of erm they don't have a swimming match or anything do they? no they have like erm cricket against the dads or some old blokes playing tt the a level art exhibition and erm that's it basically. yeah i suppose all the parents start chatting yeah. have you re-snogged any of the people? yeah. you don't, so you don't go for the new ones you just ca go back to the beginning of the list? oh yeah! no i mean that sounds terrible ! erm i've redone cal and phil who did, who did go out, go out with? because when i was saying in erm kirsty . was it kirsty? mm. oh. is he ? yeah. yeah cos i was staying in her room and i was ill and mm. yeah you can always blame it on illness. yeah. well i was ill for about four days i mean what do they expect? i'm not gonna do, do we get to keep the tapes and the batteries though? no. have to give them all back. all of them? yes so've i. bye. bye. you promise me nobody's gonna hear these. yeah. just the people that not the teachers in this school? i can add a kathy onto that then. please. what? not the teachers in this school. no no no no, no one here. i'm going to bed. i don't know what we were talking about then. oh i wasn't gonna go to the shack oh yeah. you're not going home? i am going home for two days. oh right yeah you're not going to the shack yeah i remember. what about sunday night though? bet you will. well i'll come back, shall i come back late? no my brother has to be back by nine nine thirty, i'll have exams so i'll go and revise no i bet you i will i just can't, the temptation's extremely great but not if you know what i mean. i'm tempted to go but i don't want to for the fool i'll make out of myself. i know yeah quite. well can't you keep a grip on yourself woman? oh actually it will be better, will you be there? will, will you be there? on sunday night? no you won't will you? yeah i will. you will? cos i need some friends around just to like protect me cos i was the only girl last week and i just had no one to refer to. god you must have felt quite silly yes. everyone was laughing at you crap. where did you, where did you get no like i that idea? i thought it, no no i mean like you knock your leg on the table or something, you know? or that you open the door on your face, i dunno, anything. no i don't really, i think that's just no it does, no, just circumstantial though but it does happen. i notice if i say something rude something happens and i think oh i know that's probably cos you're thinking about it. it's probably all in your mind. no afterwards no, when i've done it i go and do something and then i think oh yeah that's for doing that. i did it today, i don't know what it was, i think i was rude to marina or something then something happened. and then something ha no that is completely in your mind because i'm rude to people all the time and i've never even thought about it and i still do things and i don't, you know, it doesn't even cross my mind. i, i have such a guilt complex though. if i'm nasty to someone i know you do. or say something i feel so guilty. i don't believe you can ever me? yeah. i can but yeah that's why i have such a guilt complex after and i think oh that was really horrible like what's the nastiest thing you've ever said? i, i don't know but, i can't remember i don't think about but i'm really, if i say like erm what did i say to and i just say things like i'm, i'm really pissed off with her keep coming with me to breakfast every morning yeah. and coming to dinner with me every evening, being in the same room, walking to lessons with her, it fucks me off like hell, she's really getting on my wick, you know? yeah? yeah i'm listening, i'm just so you know, i say things like oh i'm going down to see zoey now before dinner and like she'll follow me down or something and i'll say oh are you going into the saloon or like to try and get her to not come with me, then i feel so guilty i think well poor marina, you know, she's here in a foreign country, she hasn't got any friends and she's all by herself and i wouldn't like it if i was in her position yeah but you do make an effort. so i give in and let her come. i have, i can make more effort though, you know there's making an effort and making an effort. you know i could make a lot more effort than i do. no not you, she could make an effort. what to make friends? but it's really hard, she does, she wants to make friends but well like she keeps bloody well coming to sit table trina i'm listening. and she just like you know i er it puts other people off, you know? she splits me off from you lot, i'm really fucked off actually cos like when i just go to dinner i just go with bloody marina and then i sit there and i just don't say a word and no one ever talks to me. i talk to you. i know but today was another example. where were you, who were you sitting with? well mona was next to me, marina was opposite me and then suella was the other side. and suella hates me anyway so she doesn't hate you . well we're not the best of friends, she just takes the piss. so every time she says something . george is fucking sharp with me . i mean i've been in quite a bad mood this week actually but it's really, like you know standing up for myself cos anyone that's rude to me now gets it right back in their face. do they? including you lot when you call me trevor. i'm going to bed cos i'm actually knackered and i don't why i've been sitting here talking you're probably bored out your brain but i suppose it's filling up your tape. good night. night. you need to see if yeah? you need to see if this is why? what? why? it's when they piss you off and they annoy you? no when they no you don't have to, there's no, there's no rea there's no, there's no thing that makes someone but it, it if you're pissed off it doesn't, you don't have to have a special reason to be pissed off you can just be pissed off like you can just be annoyed, it's like saying you're annoyed when someone nicks your towels. are you going home? mm. are you going on sunday then? mm. oh god yeah. annoy you for no reason. piss you off. yeah. yeah well you know what i mean, for no reason. and you're not really, and you feel guilty for being snappy but then you er know what i mean? mm. don't say do you know what i mean. carole says it all the time. yeah she does actually now that you mention it. now that pisses me off. but it doesn't annoy you. no it doesn't annoy me, it's beyond annoying me it pisses me off. pretty much now. yeah but she won't she won't back down from her, her side of it. it's not like she's really kind of dominated your life it's just that she's so not stupid, it just, you know , it's incredible. i've got to take these, all these steps back down to lucy . have you done your photo thing? what thing? that thing that you were gonna do that jess has done. what, what photo thing? you know you were gonna do that photo thing with solly. yeah and you said no you just wanted, didn't want me to do it or something. oh i see, yeah yeah i've done that. oh you've done it. with marcus? mm. yeah. awful. really nasty photos. they look so bad it's embarrassing. and welcome to the lunch time phone in with me john simpson, and i'm here through till erm one o'clock as you heard. news headlines at twelve thirty. we will of course keep you up to date: any development in the gulf erm during the next erm fifty minutes or so, so stay tuned. but it's your chance to talk about what's going on; here we are, day two of the gulf conflict, and erm all the sounds on the first day were very optimistic from an allied point of view, but are we getting too optimistic? we've heard a lot about the accuracy of the continuing bombardments, but erm anybody who's been in a war will tell you that erm once you're in a war situation, things don't always go the way you expect them to, in fact there has to be an element of luck and erm the accuracy of bombing in particular erm sometimes leaves something to be required. now, from reports that have come out of baghdad, it does sound as though there is a great deal of accuracy on erm the targets, but we don't know yet exactly what's been going on. so what do you think about the overall situation as it stands at the present time? and in particular, have you any thoughts on the overnight attack on israel, the seven missiles which were fired at israel, what effects do you think this is going to have on the conflict? and do you expect israel to attack, and if they do attack, or retaliate, then will this change the whole complexion of the conflict? well if you'd erm like to call now the lines are open, i'd like to hear your point of view, your reaction to what's going on; i know a lot of people erm are not in agreement with what's going on. on the other hand, erm quite a number are supporting the troops that are doing the fighting on our behalf, so it's up to you; it's your comments that we want — oxford, three double one, one double one, the lines are open and do please call in now. we'll go straightaway to freeland and tom — hello tom. hello. and your point please? erm my point is this, and i speak with some authority, i speak arabic, i'm an ex-colonial policeman in palestine mhm i saw the plight of the jews, but i've also served with the arabs in m i six of the field security service, from turkey to libya, and erm i don't like what i see. the united nations, years ago, under the same charter, under the same regulation, told israel to return to her boundaries. she flagrantly refused to do so, and i'm not sufficiently a fool, knowing arabs better than most, that saddam took advantage of this knowing perfectly well we reneged on helping the palestine arabs, deliberately invaded kuwait so that because he thought he could get away with it. mhm and i believe there's going to be a lot of killings as there have been killings. you see, when you're an arab and you fight for your country, you are a terrorist, when you are a jew, and i'm not anti-jewish, i'm anti-zionist, you are a freedom fighter. we betrayed the arabs over the balfa declaration, we betrayed them after they cleared africa and the middle east under lawrence, we betrayed them in the last war when they backed our rear and allowed the ninth army, and i was there, to join the eighth army and get out , and directly the last war was over, we betrayed them again — there's a complete betrayal of the arabs in the middle east. i sympathise with the jews, they must have a home. i believe they were given a home with luck and arab backing, but then they wanted a state which they got, i believe they were entitled to one. now they want an empire, and they drove eight hundred thousand people, farmers, small farmers, out of their rightful land, languishing in the jordan valley in the dead sea area, which is one of the hottest places on earth; i've been there and lived there, with no hope of getting back, and the only hope they've got is driving israel out of their occupied countries. now when this is all over, and saddam has got to be stopped, forcibly stopped, when this is over, i believe that there's got to be no reneging as this country has constantly done with the arabs; there has got to be a middle east conference, and the israelis said ‘yes, we agree to your state, but return to your original frontiers or you will get the same treatment as saddam has got.’ thank you. so you're saying then that there is a double standard as far as exactly, double standards united nations and the british there always is with the british government. there was double standards even in libya against the arabs, when we betrayed the old zanussi king and put the pro-italian arabs in charge of libya when oil was found. so we've now obviously got the political will to take action against erm iraq, do you see them being enough political will following on from this conflict erm i mean we obviously don't know how the course of this conflict is going to go. but assuming we it does come to some sort of settlement ultimately, are you saying then that you still doubt whether there's that political will? i do while there's such a great jewish lobby that this british in america, that this british our own government keeps kowtowing to. right. okay, well thank you for your comments, if anybody else wants to join in on that discussion do ring now, three double one, one double one. tom from freeland, who has, as he said, erm some experience because he had erm been in the middle east for some time, speaks arabic and erm putting a very strong point there, if you'd like to comment on that or other aspects of the gulf erm conflict, do ring now, three double one, one double one. let's go to julia — hello julia. hello. whereabouts are you calling from? headington. right. i would just like to i know we need to the television programmes on about the gulf and so on, but i've two young children at home, and i find that yesterday was a very long day because there was just nothing on for them at all b b c two at four o'clock. i like to put the television on, as there's usually a very good programme at twelve ten like there is supposedly rainbow today, but there isn't, which i find very useful for my toddler while i'm getting lunch for the baby, myself and her, so she can sit down for twenty minutes, there can be a few minutes peace, and there's just you know it's just not on. so you're cross because i mean i don't like my children watching a lot of television, all right, but, you know, it is useful. you're cross because they've rescheduled there obviously is a lot of coverage about what's going on in the gulf yes, i mean they had it on all the channels virtually yesterday yes, i mean i know there should be, but you know. you think there should be more balance? i think there should be,yes. yes, i mean i have to say that if you're, if you're a member of a family and one of your members of the family is out in the gulf, then you're obviously going to be glued to it even more concerned than we ought to be yes i mean, let's not forget people are in danger of losing lives there. yes i know, but surely, you know, they could just slot in a couple of like the twenty minute, fifteen minute toddler programmes or something within the day. it's a very delicate question is it not, because, here we are, we're reporting on people who are in conflict, in great danger oh yes, yes. and it's very difficult to go from that to something which is much lighter. yes, i know. it's going to offend a lot of people, and it's a problem which i'm sure exercises a lot of minds. yes, but when you have it on from one o'clock right through till six o'clock in the evening on i t v not you know, constantly. and you think that should not happen, there shouldn't be so much coverage. i think there should be as much coverage, but i think there should be a break between it all. i mean it's not the weather you can take the children out in the afternoon is there is it? and i know and i know these families have got young children and so on, and surely they too would like a break from it, for the children? children are rushing around you know, all day.. mhm mhm i mean alright, perhaps some people have got very good children that sit down and will play with a puzzle for half an hour non-stop, you know, beautifully. but a lot of people would say of course that it is of such importance, that we really ought to be up to date with exactly what's going on, after all this is happening on our behalf. yes, i know, but there's also the radio coverage as well. yes, but i mean there is the point of course that how, how did mothers cope before we had television, i mean there's well yes, there is that, but i mean perhaps it's not something there used to doing too much, but is it not possible to get them to amuse themselves? yes when you've got one screaming and one rushing around, yes. i'm not suggesting for one moment it's easy, but i mean is it possible that, you know erm accepting that this is a major conflict, it does involve all of us whether we like it or not yes but i mean it is very tiring. i was absolutely shattered last night mhm absolutely shattered. okay, well if anybody else has like you know i had to think well what the hell am i going to do with her now, you know, and, you know, get her out of this mischief, and out of that mischief and you know, from bashing her baby brother up, and you know. right, well if anybody else you know, ten minutes peace has comments on that, we'll take them. thanks very much indeed for making that point julia, that's julia from headington. so if you have erm comments on that, do call oxford three double one, one double one. this is the lunch time phone in and my name is john simpson. the lemon pipers and green tambourine. the time, twenty one minutes past twelve and it's erm the lunch time phone in with me john simpson through till one o'clock, don't forget we've got the latest news headlines coming up at half past twelve, and if you want to join in the phone in you can now, oxford three double one, one double one, the lines are open, there are lines free, so if you want to ring in. we'll go erm to our next caller very shortly who's just waiting on the line, so if we can go to that caller yet, we can't just for the moment i'm told. well, our main subject obviously this morning, a great talking point of course, is the conflict in the gulf and erm the overnight development of that missile attack on israel, we're still waiting to hear what erm effects that will have on the israeli's attitude, will they actually strike back, and if they do strike back and retaliate on iraq, what effect will that have on the overall conflict? will it change the route of the conflict? if you have thoughts on that or any other aspect of what's going on in the gulf at the moment, do ring in, three double one, one double one. i'm told we can now go to our next caller who's mandy calling from freeland. hello mandy. hello, good afternoon erm i'm just ringing in response to the previous caller you had on actually. i too am a mother at home with a baby mhm but i totally disagree with what she said in that erm yesterday i sat glued to the television most of the day, really to keep myself up to date on what was going on, erm i also have a baby but i managed to keep him occupied as well as take him out for a walk and give him his lunch and what have you. erm i don't have a relative in the gulf erm but i for my own peace of mind, i wanted to keep up to date with things that were going on erm and also for my husband really, he is at out at work all day and i, you know it was nice when he came home from work for me to be able to tell him exactly what went on. yes, i mean it's really a question as far as you're concerned of keeping abreast of what's going on, i mean after all, it is i'm just slightly worried personally that we're everybody seems to be very optimistic, and i mean i'm not in a position to judge one way or the other, but erm you know what it's like, you know surely you can get too optimistic? i'm not suggesting the military are, but that's the impression coming off, that you know, all this is going to be easy, but i'm sure it isn't. that's right, it's erm obviously with the developments this morning erm on one of the erm french news reporters having seem some israeli war planes going off, i mean things are sort of worsening by the minute. yesterday things looked pretty hopeful but that it wouldn't take too long to get the whole thing sorted out, but i must admit things seem to be escalating and getting a lot worse now. erm yes, i mean it seems very difficult to keep in touch with exactly what is happening because of the communication blackout, but erm from what we're hearing erm obviously there is still a lot more mileage in this conflict it seems to me. that's right. i mean that was really my only comment that i just erm heard this lady speaking erm okay she's got two children and it probably is difficult to keep two children occupied without any children's programmes, but like you commented, ‘what did people do before television’, and erm i mean i'm sure erm rainbow and such, the people who produce those sort of television programmes would understand that keeping the majority of the country erm informed of what was going on was slightly more important than erm having children's programmes on. i mean i enjoy children's programmes yes. and the programmes that are on during the day, but erm this sort of thing is slightly more important i feel. can i ask you, are you at all nervous about what's happening in the gulf in the sense i mean should we actually be there doing what we're doing erm as part of the allied force, does that make you nervous? it does erm yes, it does, in fact my husband was out there erm in tel aviv on a course about a year ago erm and i you know i'm beginning to think i'm goodness i'm glad it was last year and not this year. erm you know, he's possibly seeing things on television, sort of areas that he actually visited. mhm erm i mean as i said before, i don't have relatives out in the gulf, but i feel immensely for these men that are out there, men and women, and also for the news reporters, i mean nobody's actually said what an awful job it must be for these news reporters and sort of camera crews that are actually erm doing this sort of wonderful job of bringing us back here all this information. mhm okay, thank you very much for your call mandy okay and putting your point of view, i'm going to move on because i've got lots more calls. that was mandy from freeland, let's go to buckland and lee — hello lee. hello, i am just horrified that a young woman who wanted children presumably, can make such a damn fuss, i really am. it's interesting, you're talking about our first caller who was saying that there was just too much television coverage that's right erm i mean, it's interesting, that's not the only person that's said that to me erm one of the youngsters actually said that to me last night erm sort of complaining again along the same sort of lines, and i said ‘well hang on a minute, you know there are people actually at this moment who are putting their lives on the line and exactly. and you're sitting here complaining’, and he said ‘ah, yes i hadn't thought of that’. well, what's wrong with them? well i'm sorry, i'm sixty eight, i was a waf in the last war. mhm and quite frankly, you know, a girl to not think of what's going on over there, i find it appalling. but is it i mean i'm not old enough to remember the war or oh aren't you lucky well, that's probably right erm i can just about remember it and you know as a child, and it didn't really sink in, it was some years afterwards before it actually sank in exactly what had been going on true you don't grasp it when you're young, and if you're born, obviously as a lot of the population now are, much younger, and haven't really been either touched or involved in a war, it's very difficult, it's something which we've all seen on television, we've all seen it at the films and you tend if you're not careful, to pick up the glamorous side of it, you don't realise i don't think and in fact i keep saying this — i don't think you can ever realise what it must be like to be in a battle until you've actually been there. no and fortunately most of us haven't. yes, yes, but you know, it well to me, the mind boggles that a young mum can make a fuss over a television programme, it really does. okay, thank you very much for your comments right, thank you, goodbye that's lee from buckland, thank you for ringing. let's move now to lilian who's calling from oxford — whereabouts in oxford are you lilian? cowley. right, what's your point? well i was agreeing with the erm young mother. right, go on, why do you agree, why do you think that there's too much coverage of the gulf? yes, i do because it's on as she said it was on continually. i put my television on to see blockbusters, which i like. mhm and it was it's the same thing over and over and over again. they're not telling us anything new. partly because there are communication difficulties, not that the communications don't work, but there are obviously no. censorship and things like this. but i mean, continual coverage. i think nothing is happening even with radio programmes, every half an hour. well we updates. yes, i mean we obviously feel that there are people who can't sit and listen or watch continually, and people who do dip in and out, but they still nonetheless want to know exactly what's going on. i mean particularly so if you're involved in the service, but i don't think it's just restricted to that, i want to know what's going on. i mean the one fear surely is that this isn't something which is happening on a, i was going to say a small local area, that's perhaps exaggerating but it is in a at the moment in a confined locality, we know where it is, it's not actually here and yes, yes i know i mean shouldn't we be abreast of what's happening because we well i want to know if it's spreading, if it's getting worse. i like to listen to the news, but yesterday it just gave me a headache. i listened, i like to listen to the radio programmes. mhm and i just shut it off, i said i can't take any more, and i'm not a teenager, i'm not a young mum. i was a teenager in the last war growing up. yes well i and in my early twenties i did actually quote about one of the youngsters yesterday making the point about you know, it's all on television, there's too much of it, i mean it wasn't actually quite as blatant a comment as that, the point is made was while it's on every channel, all the time yes, there's no respite at all. i know i'm sorry for a war having to break out, and the youngsters out there having to risk their lives, i mean god forbid we got another war. but should we then ignore it, or even no appear to be partially ignoring it there's no need to ignore it, just updates every hour i think is quite sufficient, and let's get back to some other programmes. okay lilian thank you very much indeed thank you for your call, we do have quite a number of callers on the line at the moment, if you could just be patient with us, because the time now is half past twelve. and welcome back to the lunch time phone in, i'm john simpson here now for another twenty eight minutes, and if you want to join in the discussion you can ring on oxford three double one, one double one. we are, as you probably gathered if you've been with us, talking about the, the gulf conflict. we've been talking about the amount of coverage on television and we do have one or two more callers on the same subject, but if you want to broaden the discussion out to other aspects of what's going on in the gulf, do feel free. we'll go then to milton keynes and bertrand, hello bertrand. hello john erm firstly i would sympathise with those that erm have been complaining about television programmes, although i erm didn't watch a great deal of television yesterday, i was listening to radio oxford actually, but erm from erm ceefax i noticed that the neighbours was broadcast twice. mhm so erm that seems to me a little bit odd that that has to be put on twice to the erm exclusion of other programmes. i'm just you're just making me think actually because i saw in one of the papers this morning erm a headline, if i can find it, it said something to the effect that — yes here it is, in the independent, it says ‘tv soaps are first to survive rescheduling’ and it goes on to tell us that the british television schedules as we all know were the first casualties of war in the gulf except for the nation's daily diet of australian soap. so erm yes, i'm just trying to scan down to see exactly what happened, but erm it was actually erm as we all know, a major reorganisation of television schedules. are you surprised that it's the soaps that survive? erm well not really because erm i believe erm that one was erm one of a few that survived at the erm time of the change of the erm prime minister. mhm now why do you think this is? i don't know erm possibly it is something to do with policy, actually that wasn't what i was the main thing i was ringing about. okay, well it's an interesting point anyway. i was erm ringing about the erm absence of the iraqi airforce. yes. erm and we've already lost planes in the erm war so far, and we have only a limited number there, while going back to the last world war mhm planes were being lost and replaced only when the aircraft production was stepped up. yes. and it takes it must take a lot longer to produce a plane like the tornado and a spitfire or a lancaster in erm the days of erm nineteen forty three well they're certainly more sophisticated after about four years war. yes, they're more sophisticated now aren't they? yes they're more sophisticated, and what i'm concerned about is whether we have the right back up to be able to sustain a war erm there at present the war is more like a blitzkrieg which the germans used at the start of the second world war mhm now with the absence of the iraqi air force, are they being held back until we have lost sufficient aircraft, and with no back up aircraft, and erm then we will our erm airforce and our land forces will be under attack from the iraqis and the war will be a prolonged war. mhm because we must remember that iraq has already had an eight years war and they're used to a war, they used to withstanding a war and it was the only reason that britain survived in the last world war because it could withstand attack, and wait and wait until they were ready to counter attack. yes, i mean several points that you've raised, and these are things that i've picked up from the newspapers and i'll make the point, i'm no expert but i as i understand it, the allied erm forces have erm substantially greater number of aircraft in the area than the iraqi airforce had, so that's one point. so, you know, if you're going to talk in terms of losses, then it does suggest, heaven forbid that the allies have got to lose a tremendous number of aircraft before the equation sort of balances. yes but erm it's not only losing the aircraft, it's losing the air crews as well oh absolutely, yes i'm not arguing about that, and as i said, heaven forbid that should happen, erm another point i did pick up from one report was that in the eight years war, and you're quite right, the iraqis are battle hardened, but the iranian air force apparently couldn't bomb iraq to any great consequence except for the first few weeks of the conflict. there i mean there was nothing like the bombing that's been going on, well, at least that's what we're told, the bombing that's been going on over the last twenty four, forty eight hours of baghdad for instance. so i think the two don't equate in that respect, i think where they may equate, and again i'm no expert, may equate when it comes to the ground forces yes i think that's is that not the thing that's worrying you, is that the question mark in your mind as well? well, one thing i think with our attack at present, they're attacking erm selected targets and that, and the iraqi people are not suffering from that, so they are able to keep going, they're not being damaged themselves. so what are you suggesting, are you suggesting that they should be bombing the general population? no, i'm not suggesting it, but erm i think it's one thing that erm will prolong the war. well i because the determination of the people erm is erm still great to erm win their war from their point of view, as a gentleman earlier was saying that erm had erm had arabic experience. mhm well i mean this obviously is a decision is it not for the military commanders? oh of course, yes yes who can actually fight the war, and i'm just wondering, politically is it going to be a good idea to knowingly, not necessarily aim at the general population, but in the process of taking out the targets, extend it to the general population, well what do you think of that? well of course that was erm supposedly one of the greatest mistakes of the last world war was when the erm the erm german air force was switched from attacking the erm royal air force, and air force stations and attacking erm the targets in london. although there were a great number of casualties in london, the erm will of the people still remained constant to win the war okay well and it gave the air force a chance to regroup. it does at the moment according to the reports,everything is aimed at the control and the command network and also and obviously at the military targets, so we'll just have to wait and see yes thank you for your call right you are, thank you. bye bye, that's bertrand from erm milton keynes. we go to headington now and george, hello george. hello. and your point please? yes, i should like to bring in erm support about the first lady about the her child, but actually i've more agreement with the last woman speaker when she was saying there was too much saturation about the gulf. i mean i'm speaking as a political animal because i watch all the television, i mean i take my wireless to bed and listen to the actually i was listening to the wireless at erm half past eleven when they started it, so i'm not speaking as a person that sort of doesn't watch or listen to the gulf business, but i think it's erm on too much. you think it's too much but you think there should be coverage nonetheless? oh it should be covered definitely, i mean i watch i mean you've got all the extended programmes, i mean last night i watched the nine o'clock news until ten o'clock and then the one o'clock news at dinner time until two and, and erm various things, i mean i think it's quite enough myself, i mean i'm speaking as an ex-soldier at seventy years old, and i think well i don't think really that people necessarily want to hear it all, even the people who've got people over there. mhm i mean as regards i agree with the woman when she was saying about she wanted to tell her husband about what happens when he comes home from work, but i think she won't need all those bulletins to tell him what's happening, she can tell him the latest bulletin before he comes in the door, couldn't she? okay, erm i mean you say about even people who've got members of their family over there, i mean i know that if it was me, i would want to know what was going on. i can only speak for myself, okay? yes i know, but i mean you're just speaking of yourself but i mean yes but i'm saying if i had a member of my family there, i would definitely want to know what was going on. i obviously i from what was coming out you probably couldn't work out very much to help you but nonetheless i know that i would want to do that as a person. yes but i mean it's like the lady said, i mean you get the same thing all the time. yes, but i well yes i mean this is a judgement each of us has to make erm it's a judgement if you've got a member of your family involved in this, then obviously your attitude is going to be totally different from the rest of us that aren't. but even if we're not involved directly, i mean are you saying then that we perhaps put it to one side, it's happening somewhere else? no, no i'm not saying, i'm just talking about the word saturation. okay. at the . right, okay, george thanks for making the point. bye bye. okay, bye, that's george from headington. i'm going to change subjects now, but if you want to come back to the gulf, do feel free, the lines are open on three double one, one double one, but i in the meantime we'll take a couple of calls on different subjects erm let's go to june from shillingford, hello june. hello erm i couldn't get on the line yesterday, so i thought i'd try and ring in today. it's with the opening regarding the opening of the m forty yes. i understand that there are about five hundred people were actually invited to the ceremony, so obviously this means that about two or three hundred cars were arriving. i want to know, where did all these people come from then, and why so many? erm i surely erm they weren't all connected with the m forty, and i expect possibly others whom should have been invited were overlooked. the main reason, main thing is presuming that there must have been refreshments for all these people, probably might have been just a buffet or cup of coffee, or i expect there was probably a lunch laid on, i want to know who footed the bill for the lunch? right erm i suppose it was the poor tax payer? i can tell you erm from although i wasn't actually there mhm i can tell you that in fact erm the erm guests and the members of the press were actually, they actually met at a point in bicester mhm for a reception there and they actually went by coach to the opening ceremony on the motorway mhm they then after the opening they returned to erm the erm theatre in bicester mhm and i understand that there was a reception which erm in as far as i'm aware was actually erm organised and financed by the contractors who were building the motorway. ah that's not so bad then, i thought perhaps the poor taxpayer was going to have to foot the bill. i yes, i mean it did make i did actually see a press release erm oh i didn't see that. well no you wouldn't but erm i mean we, we obviously do receive press releases yes to tell us things are happening and certainly on the press release it made erm it was there in black and white to say that oh well that's good enough then, i thought perhaps if the taxpayer had to pay, i wouldn't be very pleased i think one or two other people may have the same comment to make if that was the case erm ah, yes and so as i understand it that's the situation yes i suppose it's not taxpayer now, what do we call them now — poll, poll tax payers or i suppose they are still tax payers though. yes, it's it's either the community charge yes, oh yes, i never thought of that or more likely it could be erm from your income tax, your inland revenue so it's yes, yes oh, oh that's alright then, you've cleared one query up in my mind. thank you very much indeed well can i just ask you one quick question? oh dear, what? will you be using the m forty now it's open? erm do you think it's a good thing? well yes if it's to get to from a to b quickly, yes and stop having to go through all the little villages and clutter that up mhm erm i don't personally like motorways, i would i'm terrified of the m twenty five, i'd rather go the long way round i'm afraid, but well fortunately at the moment, the traffic on the m forty, well certainly yesterday was nothing like the m twenty five although it was reasonably busy and there's every expectation it will increase over the coming weeks. yes, yes i use the m four quite a bit and i suppose i'm so used to that i don't mind it. okay, thanks very much for the call and raising the question okay much obliged, thank you, bye. so that was erm june from shillingford. we're going to faringdon now to meet jean — hello jean. hello john, erm could you tell me when the social services are being asked to make cuts and charge handicapped people and the elderly two fifty a day to attend day centres, and other departments are being asked to make cuts. mhm how can the oxfordshire county council justify spending three hundred and twenty thousand pound to buy medley boat station in port meadow? ah, good question. now first of all let's get our facts absolutely right erm the social services department is run by the county council mhm in fact the council that have put up the money to buy medley boat station was in fact the oxford city council, so it is actually slightly different right, yes in as much that erm it comes out of a different purse mhm and if you live in faringdon then erm presumably you didn't contribute to the money that was spent by the city council on the medley boat station. mhm had you been living in oxford and asking the same question i think well then it's erm you know, it's obviously a very valid question. yes well i think so. erm i mean it's a surely it's a political decision is it not, i mean there's been a lot of controversy as you i'm sure are well aware about the medley boat station? erm well i don't know an awful lot about it no. well it's been a discussion — if we can put it that way that's been going on more or less throughout the nineteen eighties mhm because the then owner erm in the view of the council was exceeding the terms of his occupation and he was increasingly encroaching on port meadow. there as you probably know are various groups who feel that they, ought to erm, they ought to take a stand because they felt that port meadow actually the character of port meadow was changing and ultimately the council i think agreed with them, that something should be done and this was the action that was taken. mhm yes but surely i mean when the council has been asked not to overspend. mhm erm how can they justify spending three hundred and twenty thousand pounds? erm is it a question of priorities, is it a political yes i think it is a political priorities? i think it's a question of priorities yes. okay well i tell you what, look if you'd like to stay on the line, i'm obviously not exactly floundering but i haven't got an answer off pat no, no i didn't make the decision no, no, no. what i can do is bring you someone now on the line who can tell us exactly why that decision was made and exactly why that money was spent in the way it was because we've been joined by councillor john power. erm mr power thank you for joining us. thank you. would you like to answer the question, why was it felt necessary to spend three hundred and twenty thousand when other areas of government local council expenditure is in dire need of extra cash? well the first thing is that the city council is charged with the defence of common land that and port meadow is a piece of common land that's been in the possession of the people of oxford and oxfordshire and of england for over a thousand years. and it's our intention that that land should remain for our children's children's children, that's the first point. and we had a great deal of commercial encroachment that took place on it in quite illegally and unauthorised manner with medley boat station expanding on to the banks, and the city council have been working since nineteen seventy four would you believe, to try and end that and restore that land to common land again. so the council were faced were having to take a legal action because there was a whole claims that because the land was so old, nobody knew who technically owned it and it wasn't registered as we owning it until nineteen sixty six, there was legal disputes about that. and the advice that we got was that if we wanted to establish proper ownership and control of that land again, we would have to seek a high court action, possibly the house of lords as well, and that total cost would be in the region of a quarter of a million pounds in legal costs, and we also then stood the, well risk of losing the case as well, so we could have spent two hundred and fifty thousand pounds for nothing. the council agreed to buy the station for — it's about three hundred and twenty five thousand, but i want to make this point, that it isn't their intention to close the boat station. it's their intention to leave the boat station there, but as a boat hiring station only, and to let rent that to somebody, not to have boat building enterprises, not to have a car park, not to have a chandlery and so on which was put there by the person whose who used to own it, and we will recoup all of that money from renting that boat station so it can be run as a boat hiring station again, and from three or four of the moorings that are will have been there for a long time, with proper permission. so in the long run, first of all we saved ourselves an initial risk outlay of a quarter of a million pounds on legal fees, the second thing is that we now have that common land back under control, and within ten years we will recoup all of that money. okay, let me bring jean back in, your comments to that then jean — that's the answer. well, not an awful lot really i mean, you know, you, you can't win, as i say, it just seemed wrong that you know when people ask being asked to make cuts and make these charges that that amount of money should be spent on something else but, as mr powers just explained erm i mean, the decision was taken on in, in view of the fact that it was actually going to save them legal fees yes and that ultimately they will actually yes, yes recoup the money that takes time does that not satisfy you? well in a way yes, but erm in another way no, i'm sorry okay okay right right, thank you, right okay jean thank you for raising the point. john power if you'd like to stay on the line just a moment, because i've got another gentleman who wants to actually talk about that, it's les erm calling from oxford — hello les. hello john. would you like to make your point please. well i've heard quite a lot of it so why i should bring the subject up then everyone started talking about it. mhm well it is three hundred and twenty thousand pound that they're paying to this person that should not have been there in the first place, he walked on there, he built places there without planning permission and i think if the council had played their cards right, they could have got him off without paying out this three hundred twenty thousand pound. they must have got a piggy bank somewhere. so how do you think they keep telling us about this poll tax, they've got to cut the staff and then they decide that they're going to give this man this money. all they could have said to him ‘get off’. yes but i mean how you say if they'd played their cards right, but are you saying just go down there and say to him ‘get off?’ they should have got the solicitors in and said ‘look you've no rights to have been here, you walked on this common land without any permission at all, you built these places without you've got cars park and everything’, and now i listen to the story where the council says they're going to run it etc. etc and etc, well what the people want, they want it cleared up, they want it back to where it was, we don't want somebody running another business out there, this is the idea of getting him off. okay, well to clear it up okay well hang on just a second then because john power, councillor john power is on the other line, let's bring him back into that. there you've heard allegations from les, you should have gone down there and said to him ‘get off.’ well i agree with that but i want to make a few points first of all, because poll tax was tangled up with this. may i make the point that this money was committed as part of a contingency fund in the budget before poll tax came in right? so it came out of a budget when we were all ratepayers, it didn't come out of poll tax payers' budgets okay? it was it's a previous budget decision, i want to make that point, it was made before the last budget, and this has been a sort of a year of negotiations, that's the first point and okay, but it i mean having said that, it did actually come from the pockets of all the people who are resident in the city it yes, but it's not yes tied up with poll tax, it was done before poll tax was erm it's only just been announced because there's been a lot of negotiations going on, but the figure was committed before poll tax came into being — right? good, yes thanks for clearing that. that's the first point, the second point is that on the question of planning, yes he did things without planning permission, and we refused those things without planning permission and we sought enforcement notices against him. he went to appeal, that went to a public enquiry, and the public enquiry upheld his right to do it; the public enquiry was hosted by the department of the environment, so we lost that on planning grounds. the next case we turned to was the question of ownership of the meadow; i've explained the confusion and the complications about ownership of the meadow because it nobody had bothered to register it until nineteen sixty six. and as the boat station had been there before nineteen sixty six, probably a hundred years before nineteen sixty six, it was then claimed that this person had adverse possession, which in short, is squatter's rights. and that is what we had to legally challenge in the courts. on the last point that les makes, i want to ensure him about this; that when horton run that boat business, that was a water-based business, it ran on the basis there were floats in the river and you stepped on to the float and you got onto a boat. it didn't operate from the bank, and it's the intention of the council to turn it back into a water-based boat hiring business so there will be nothing along the bank at all. les — your last comment? well i would the only thing i can say in this is this cash, i know they said they'd get it got in the piggy bank before the poll tax, but as they keep shouting about they've got to put the poll tax up, they've got no money, they they're putting the staff off and one thing and another. i think they could have kept that money for that purpose what they want now, not to throw it across there. but it was i mean you have to admit erm and i'm i'll bring mr power in and let him speak for himself, but you have to admit that it from what we've just heard, it started in nineteen seventy four, it's been going on a long time. oh yes, i know all that and, and i mean i used, i used to go out there picking moon daisies, years ago. i know all about port meadow. yes, but i mean erm excuse me erm there are a lot of people who have been saying for a long time, the council are dragging their heels and they're not doing anything. now they've done something, you're not satisfied. well now, what they've done something which i think if there as i said to you in the first place, if they'd have run their cards played their cards right, they could have said to that fellow ‘look you've got no rights to be here, we never gave you planning’what's wrong with this planning people, they step here and they step there, there's people do things without planning permission, they do nothing at all about it, if i was to go and stick something up in my front garden, they'd come along and say ‘hey,.’ well what is wrong with the planning people? well, mr power? well, i mean actually, we wouldn't say that to him if he stuck something up in his front garden, that's the reality; people imagine that we have powers that we don't have. may i make the point to les, and it's true, it is not illegal to do things without planning permission it isn't, you can put anything up you like, the only illegality is not applying after you've done it, and when you apply after you've done it, all we can do is consider the planning reasons, not the fact that you did it without permission. and if we did if we were to consider that you we'd refuse you on the grounds that it was done without permission, you'd have a perfect legitimate right to appeal above our heads and the department of the environment would rule against you could rule against us as they did with mr crendon and last but not least on these issues of planning which i think is very important, i'm glad to get the opportunity to put this thing over to people; i very much regret the way that planning laws have been weakened so that the local authorities don't have the power they used to have. we now reach the impossible position where if somebody goes to appeal against us and they win, they can claim costs against us, and we actually have that now, we've got fairly large sums of cost hanging against the council, so if i'd like to ask les to erm i'd like to have his support for stronger planning laws, then we could do the things that he says we ought to do. so from what you've just said, you've got to be very careful when you go to enquiry appeal, that you are actually going to win, because otherwise you could end up erm costing even more money on the community charge? well we lost sixty thousand pounds on the british rail station enquiry for example okay, i think that's erm a good example, thank you very much for joining us this morning. thank you john. that's john power, councillor john power as you heard talking there about the medley boat station. thanks also to les for his point of view on that. erm let's go to ron — hello ron. hello john. where are you calling from? i'm calling from oxford. whereabouts? erm in the city. right, and what's the point you want to raise? well erm i'm very concerned about the congestion of traffic at the top of erm morrell avenue, on the erm junction of the roundabout with warneford lane. now there are cars parked right the way up and even on to the roundabout, and i think a lot of these erm persons erm with the cars are probably from the polytechnic. but the point that i want to make is that there is a bus stop either side of erm well, one in morrell avenue and one in erm just in the junction of warneford lane. yes. now when the buses pull up there, they've got to double park and it completely blocks the road, i mean you've either got to swing right round the bus on the wrong side of the road and you know you could easily run into something coming the other way. mhm and erm the erm your view is completely blocked altogether when you're coming up to that roundabout, as you know they come up from erm southfield road and divinity road which comes up on to that roundabout, and erm i think it's very very dangerous. yes, well it certainly doesn't sound very satisfactory does it? well it's not because as i say, they actually park right on to the roundabout. have you drawn the attention this problem to the police? well i haven't at the moment, but i thought i'd like to air the view first with you. yes, i'm sure there are lots of people listening who live or even travel through that area that's right so, what i would suggest is that you certainly have a word with the police and draw their attention to it and if anybody listening has parked their car there, do please consider just how safe it is where you're parking and think of other people. well that is true because as i say, i think it is very very dangerous there. okay ron, thank you for raising that yes, thank you very much john. i'm going to move on because i want to get one more call in and that's pat from kidlington — hello pat. oh good morning. well first of all i want to thank you john for your programme, we really have enjoyed it and we're very sorry this is your last day. oh, well that's very kind of you , you've been checking up haven't you, counting off the days on the calendar. almost that, and i want to say that i have some sympathy for the lady who has children and just couldn't entertain them for the day. erm i enlisted in the air force december thirty nine, and i had six and a half years taken out of my life for helping with the war effort, and hopefully my sons and my grandsons will not have to go into another war. mhm and could i leave you with a poem? i won't read it all out, but it was given to me before i went into the air force. right, you've got thirty seconds. right ‘thou standest on the threshold of days which are unknown, thou standest at the gate where your path's unmapped and shown, but god himself is with thee, thy saviour keep a friend, and he will not forsake thee nor leave thee 'till the end, thou pausest on the threshold, enfolded lies a year, but with god's arms beneath thee, there is no cause to fear. though shadowed days or sunlit, what 'ere the year may bring, this fact may be thy comfort, god reigns in everything. and to all those people who have sons out there, and daughters out there, i say ‘god bless you all’. thanks very much indeed pat, and erm that brings me to the end of the lunch time phone in, in fact, the end of my stint on the lunch time phone in, because on monday bill will be back; bill heine, so you'll be able to join him just after the twelve o'clock news. but i've enjoyed being here, i hope you've enjoyed it as much as i have, and i look forward to the next time that i'm sitting in the hot seat; until then, from me, goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today we'll be talking about all those guarantees that you've seen when you bought your car and when you bought your refrigerator and when you've bought almost anything nowadays, because people are being spoiled for choice on guarantees it seems. but, what are the problems with guarantees? are they really worth the amount of paper that's expended on them? well, i'm joined by a few people who can give you some clues on guarantees. first of all, roy hill, whose the deputy trading standards officer for oxfordshire county council, and also john collinswood, who is from the mechanical breakdown insurance company in thame. roy, welcome to the programme. what are some of the major problems with the guarantees that we're offered? i think one of the biggest problems at the moment, bill, is the hard sell on extended warranties and on secondhand cars. if you go to buy a secondhand car these days they invariably try to sell you a guarantee or a warranty on it. you might pay anything from twenty or thirty pounds to two hundred pounds for this guarantee. when you look at the small print, most of the items that are going to go wrong are excluded, and people get very upset and complain to our department when they can't get it book right. well, like for instance what about these exclusions clauses. what do they cover? well a fairly typical one excludes anything which is faulty as a result of negligence or bad workmanship. if the crank shaft goes on a car after twenty thousand miles, is it a defect — mechanical defect — covered by the guarantee, or was it faulty workmanship by the person who put it into the car? and you as the poor customer are going to have to argue the toss as to whether it's a defect or faulty workmanship, so the chances are you won't be able to claim. we've got a typical example of that at the moment. somebody paid a hundred and eighty pounds for an extended warranty on a new vehicle. the crank shaft thrust washers have gone, admittedly after a fairly high mileage, but he thought it was covered by his guarantee — it isn't. they're saying it's wear and tear and he'll have to pay himself. but but these guarantees, i mean what are the upsides of them, what are the good points of them? well i think some of the manufacturers' guarantees, certainly on motor cars, erm are reasonable and you can expect to rely on them and get things put right. i think the biggest problem is these extended guarantees and the ones that you pay that little bit extra for, thinking you've got extra cover that you wouldn't normally have. in many cases you are not getting extra cover at all. well then you're suggesting there's and element of conning going on here? if i was cynical, bill, i'd say it's a good way of making a bit of extra money, and that was confirmed at a meeting i went to of motor traders the other day. they thought they really weren't very much, but they were a good selling point. why are they a good selling point? because people have high expectations? i think if you go and buy a secondhand car erm it's often a big investment, two, three, four, five thousand pounds or even more. if somebody's saying to you do you want our guarantee — it's fifty pounds, or it's a hundred pounds — if you're spending that sort of money you'll probably pay out for it and you'll think you're covered for all sorts of things that might go wrong. if you take that home and read the small print, you'll find you're probably not covered for the very things that are going to go wrong. mhm well i'm joined by john collinswood. hello john. hello. hello. now you're over there with a group in thame, and it's the mechanical breakdown insurance. that's correct, that's right. if i can jump in straightaway indeed. i've got a bit of a conflict of interest here straightaway because the actual case that roy is talking about is actually my brother and i at this moment have been complaining to the lloyds policy unit in respect of erm this particular policy, because the company that was actually trading went into liquidation. it was fully underwritten by lloyds and the claim has been unfairly rejected in my personal opinion. erm i've arranged for an independent assessor to view this vehicle, and the view of that independent assessor is this is a straightforward claim against the insurance company, and i at the moment am pursuing that, so it's a little bit of a conflict of interest that one, but that does give you some background on that particular case. yes, indeed. erm well it it seems like there are problems with these kinds of guarantees. what problems do you find with them? well i think some of the big problems if we can clarify mechanical breakdown insurance. now it is actually mechanical breakdown insurance. it's called warranty and guarantee throughout the trade and throughout the general public, but its correct name is mechanical breakdown insurance. it is an insurance contract which covers a number of items against mechanical failure. erm if people don't actually read the policies erm they won't be fully aware of what they're being offered. it's not erm a carte blanche situation where with anything that goes wrong with the vehicle will be covered by the policy, it is an insurance contract for which specific liabilities are covered. erm but that's the main point that i would i would try and get across. obviously, as we've gone along but but hold on, could i jump in there because yes, certainly. even if people do read these contracts, or these warranties, or these extended service contracts, they might not know what they're buying even if it's read to them, because it's in a particular kind of jargon. right. if i can clarify that, our policies we've been going since nineteen eighty three, and all our policies are in full print, which are readable. in fact, we've had a couple of accolades from english reading teachers to the effect that erm the policy is so easy to understand. we deliberately avoid using insurance jargon at all. in fact, if you took the trouble to read through the policy you would see it's very understandable. the other point i would make is that our company policy is that we write to every policy holder when we receive their policy. we ask them to read the policy, we explain bits in the booklet, we ask them to telephone us if there's anything they're not happy with or they're unsure about and we will clarify that, and also we do give them fourteen days in which to cancel, so if if once they've actually got the policy, if they're not happy with it, or they're not happy with the answers that we give, then they're more than happy we're more than happy to refund. john, could i just come in there. roy hill. certainly, roy. sorry about that. it's just to pick you up on a couple of points. right. your policy is not very different to many others. i mean let me not allege that you're one of the worst, but you say ‘dear motorists, erm may we congratulate you on the acquisition of your new vehicle. we should advise you that we've endeavoured to provide the best possible cover for the most competitive premium.’ mjc that's right. then if you run through it, this particular one, plan two — maximum liability two hundred pounds. that's probably a set of tyres or something -it's not a great deal of money in this day and age -but then failure is limited to actual breakage, wear and tear is excluded, it doesn't cover the cost of working materials such as gaskets, if the vehicle has been modified in any way it's excluded, it excludes any personal injury resulting from the breakdown, it covers erm the schedule is invalid if you have not covered the servicing aspects on page ten, the servicing aspects on page ten require you within ten days or two hundred and fifty miles of three thousand miles intervals — most cars now are six thousand mile intervals — to have the oil changed, so there's a built-in additional service, and so it goes on. right. erm in other words, what i'm really saying is, with all these exclusions, what included? right. okay, let's let's try and clarify a few points as we go along. the first thing you we do a range of policies and you've picked one of our smaller ones. we do actually cover up to a thousand pounds parts and labour with a wide range of cover across the board. that really sort of i mean obviously depending on what you pay i mean the policies can vary from twenty five pounds up to four hundred pounds. now obviously, depending on the premium that's being paid, depends on a. the period of cover erm and the amount of payout and obviously the parts that are actually covered. but, john, put yourself in the customer's shoes, and my wife's one of your customers. she bought a secondhand car and was given this warranty with it. now she came away thinking i've got this secondhand car and they've given me a warranty. we know it's an insurance, but they think it's a warranty. now when you read through it, she's not covered for anything. right. so it's a bit of a sales gimmick, isn't it? erm no i wouldn't agree with that, put it has your wife received the letter from us? erm i can't remember now, she bought the car two or three ago. oh, if it was bought two or three years ago, well i well obviously i couldn't say, but obviously they have the option to read the policy at that point. if your wife is unhappy, now it may well have been that a better policy could have been put on the vehicle. now at that point, when she received the letter and read the policy, erm we could have given her a better cover if it applied to that particular vehicle. but my point is the customer doesn't know what they've got. i mean in the excitement of buying a car you're not going to read the small print, you're not going to read the little bit that says you must have the oil changed every three thousand miles and unless you do it within two hundred and fifty miles of that and not only that, you must send evidence of the service by recorded delivery to you. that's very onerous. right, let's clarify a point here. first of all that the plan two policy there is for vehicles over five years, sixty thousand miles. now our company policy is a vehicle up to the or below five years and sixty thousand miles, we agree on manufacturer's servicing. it is a contract of insurance and the policy holder does have a part to play by maintaining the vehicle. now obviously up to five years, sixty thousand, we agree manufacturers' recommendations. when you get to vehicles over and above that, we run into problems where people that have sorry to butt in again, but i don't think that's quite right, because this plan two, five years and sixty thousand miles, refers to manufacturer's warranty, which might still be valid, and this supplements it. so this is not intended for five years old, it actually refers to new vehicles. no, that policy you've got there relates to used vehicles and what i'm saying this that particular policy can be issued on vehicles above five years and sixty thousand miles. erm generally, below five years sixty thousand miles, we have policies which give manufacturer's servicing, and obviously erm the policy holder does have a part to play in doing that. but if i can move on just for a second, erm when you get over and above that, we have problems where people that are purchasing those sort of vehicles cannot afford, with the best will in the world, to take them in to the main agents and have a full service, although they should do, but if you can't afford to do that and these are the problems that we had, so we actually changed that. instead of manufacturer's servicing it's just an oil change and level check, that's all it is, every three months, three thousand miles, because bearing in mind that these vehicles will be over five years and sixty thousand miles it's less onerous to the customer to have that than to be forced into having a manufacturer service which they probably can't afford. yes, but what are you actually going to pay out for, john. i mean everything's excluded as far as i can see. well i think that's a very unfair statement to make. you've got the policy in front of you and obviously, as i have said, that is one of our smaller plans anyway. erm but obviously we do cover the parts that are listed on pages two and three of all of our booklets, and depending on the premium that's paid depends on the coverage issues. you cover the parts listed on pages two and three, which is engine, gearbox, erm differential, prop shaft, brakes, electrical, etc., but that's qualified by the fact that you don't cover any parts which were faulty at the time of purchase, or inherent faults at the time of purchase, right, let me in other words on the way, and you exclude negligence or bad workmanship. so if a piston ring breaks, then the chances are it's somebody's negligence along the way and it's not a fault in the or mechanical breakdown. erm no, i can't agree with either of those statements in fairness. what's actually covered on the policy there i mean obviously if if you get let's take the first point as regards the if the vehicle isn't right from the day of purchase, then obviously the redress is with the dealer obviously erm i mean we're all aware of that situation, and obviously the idea of the policy is not to take away the dealer's liability the dealer's liability remains, as you would know. this is to give extra protection over and above that. what's the extra protection it gives? well obviously if if you the normal rule of thumb, as i'm led to believe, is that if you buy a used a vehicle from a used car dealer, you're given three months, three thousand miles, in which you can you can take complaints back. obviously these policies are not for three months, three thousand miles, they are for a much longer period than that, and obviously if people do have problems then that's what we're here for. yes, but your normal sale of goods rights, john, say that if the vehicle isn't in reasonable condition, bearing in mind it's age, previous history, price paid, then you have a claim under the sale of goods act, so where are you taking us beyond that? well, as i am saying, that obviously is the liability that the dealer has, because obviously he's sold the goods to the purchaser. what i'm saying is obviously this is over and above that. it doesn't supersede that in any way, and obviously if people do run into problems i mean normally a major problem in the first three months or three thousand miles is taken back to the dealer anyway. over and above that, obviously this is where the advantage to the policy holder comes in because obviously if they get a gearbox problem that's going to cost, say, a hundred and eighty pounds in six months time, they're not going to be able to go back to the dealer and say look i want you to put this right for me, because obviously it is outside the statutory guarantee. but that poor customer, john — i am sorry to keep going back to you on it, i'm just seeking clarification — that poor customer has got to prove to your satisfaction that it's a mechanical breakdown and not a result of what they've done to it or somebody's, at any time, negligence in assembly. and that's very difficult to do. if we take your point as far as the erm erm breakage of a piston ring is concerned. if there is a vehicle on risk with us and a piston ring breaks, regardless of the reason we coverage the breakage of a component and therefore we would we would cover the cost of the replacement rings and the labour to do so. yes, i think you're drawing a distinction between what you do in practice and what you're booklet says, so i am talking about the letter of your booklet and what you do in practice might be a lot better. i think you've got to you've got to accept that it is a legally binding contract, all of the policies, and i think you have to realise that in any arrangement that you make erm where there is a degree of legality, there has to be parameters put down. but obviously on those parameters you can't have hard and fast rules for each vehicle. for example, what might apply erm on a one year old vehicle that's done ten thousand miles, might not apply on a vehicle that's done a hundred thousand miles and is ten years old. i fully accept that, but let me throw it back at you and say you, through your brother, are arguing about the small print on an extended warranty. not one of ours, i hasten to add. i accept that. but you've just argued my case for me, haven't you? in what way? in that you've got a difficulty with an extended warranty. you're arguing the toss over the small print as to whether or not it's covered. it's no, no it is a mechanical breakdown. you've had to go to a specialist engineer in support of your case and to argue your case, and you're still arguing over it. if i can clarify two things there first of all. this as far as this is my personal opinion as far as that claim is concerned, that that is totally and utterly valid. the fact that the company that sold the policy has gone into liquidation erm claims handlers have been put in who, in my opinion, and it is my personal opinion, are are not necessarily doing the job as well. what i would say this is a very very rare event in effect erm for this to happen erm and normally when the claims handlers do come into a situation like that it's handled perfectly properly. erm so i don't think it's fair to erm to bring that one in really. well i'm a bit worried when people are buying these guarantees and someone goes into liquidation, like for instance if you buy an extended warranty then usually dealers tie up with one particular broker specialising in that form of insurance, and and if that particular dealer — the car dealer — gets the insurance and it's in his or her name right. and it's not in the name of the individual, and that car dealer goes into liquidation, then the people — the motorist — are left with a guarantee that is is worthless. i don't understand that because the policies that are sold today are sold between the policy holder and the actual insurance company. if i can clarify a few points. erm the department of trade and industry stepped into this business about ten years ago and because there was a situation where there was no re-insurance, but when the company that was actually selling the policy when into liquidation erm there was no redress for the policy holder. now all policies are fully underwritten by a department of trade approved insurer and that is compulsory on this line of business, so should the should the company go erm into liquidation then the insurance company will take over the handling of those claims erm so that really doesn't apply any more. well here's the director general of fair trading, and this is someone who's had quite a bit of experience on this, sir gordon borey and he says that motorists should ensure that any cover they buy is in the form of an individual insurance policy in their name. if it is not, and the garage or other body running the extended warranty scheme goes out of business, the warranty will be worth no more than the paper it is written on. i would agree with that, but i can't i can't envisage circumstances where dealers are actually using if they're insuring their own their own mechanical breakdown insurance, then yes obviously, if that company goes into liquidation then obviously they have no redress which is obviously why it's important than anybody buying a vehicle should make sure that it's fully underwritten by a department of trade approved insurer. now if they ensure that, should the garage go into liquidation, or albeit the warranty company, then they are fully covered by the insurance company. i think the sorry, bill, the erm confusion arises because we're talking about warranties and insurance and most people buying a car, getting extended insurance or one of these insurance schemes, will assume it's warranty, but there's no protection for somebody issuing a warranty going out of business. there is protection through the insurance companies and lloyds for covering an insurer who goes out of business. so there is a difference. erm yes. i mean obviously the reality is that obviously if you buy a mechanical breakdown insurance from a dealer and the dealer goes into liquidation then obviously that doesn't affect the policy because the policy will still be handled by a company such as ours, and there are a number of companies obviously. the other point i'm trying to say is that we have to insure with a department of trade approved insurer, so that should anything, for any reason, ever happen to ourselves or a company, then the insurance company is still responsible for the claims and will meet them. all right. i'm joined by frank on the line. do stay with us, john, because i think this man has a good word to say. hello. i've got a bouquet for the insurance company of thame, the mechanical breakdown service. i'll tell you what happened. i bought a volvo estate care from the oxford used car centre and i had done rather quite high mileage which i sort of didn't really look at the mileage when i bought it. then there came it think it was the gearbox or something went on the gar, you know, because i tow a caravan, and the car just wouldn't pull the caravan, and it was going to cost over a thousand pounds and that like. i definitely couldn't afford that, so i took it back to the oxford used car centre and erm what happened, the mechanical breakdown service — now this is where i thought they were very good — they reimbursed me all the money that i'd paid out on those repairs plus they did the repairs and put me a new gearbox in and the car's running perfectly. now to me you can't beat a better that's one of the best insurance people i've ever been with. and if they look after a customer like that i mean they can't be faulty, can they? well, what do you say to that, john? well that's very nice to hear. i mean obviously since we was established in nineteen eighty three we've gone from strength to strength, and the only way that any company can do that is by offering good service all round. erm i mean a few of things that i would say, first of all we operate on a freephone system, also we turn claims cheques round the same day, and the name of the game as far as we're concerned is service. we don't have claim forms. if people have got a problem, they ring us up and we're here to look after them. it's a simple as that. any company that that isn't in the business of paying claims is not going to be around anyway and i am concerned about the attitude of roy because it does seem to be extremely one sided. you can pick fault with anything if you try hard enough, but i do think that the policies that we offer erm are very good and very reasonable. i'm absolutely delighted to hear that, bill, and i'm glad we've got a satisfied customer. what we've got is the practice is totally different to what's in the small print in the document. could i suggest, john, that you re-word your document to reflect your practices. if that's what you're doing in practice, say so, don't put all these exclusions in the document because that makes me suspicious and makes me think you're trying to exclude these things. well, i think if i can clarify small print. if you look through the wording of that policy, it is all the same print. there is no small print in the booklet. i think also if you read it through there's no insurance jargon in there at all, except to say that the policy's underwritten by a department of trade approved insurer. but apart from that it is totally and utterly readable. we also write to the customers, as i have said. anybody that does have query from the outset, we invite them to phone us on our freephone number, clarify any points. if they're not happy with the insurance to start with, we're quite happy to refund. well let's listen to another perspective on this one. les is on the line. oh, hello. well first of all i'd like to erm say that erm the last gentlemen who phoned in is a very lucky driver. erm i bought a car actually over at kidlington, and i did not know the amount of premium i was paying. all i was told is that you're getting twelve months guarantee, but you've got to have a three thousand mile service, and as the gentleman said erm i recorded the deliveries and sent them all back and on the third one, when i took it in i asked if they'd put a new set of points in for me and erm unfortunately when it came out there was no compression at all and because because i it was suggested that i dug my heels in a bit and got an independent report and erm basically they told me to get lost because it cost fifty pound to do the report. now what happened was originally that i lost compression on pistons three and four and it worked out there was a very thin channel from piston three to four on the head gasket and erm basically it ruined part of the engine and the whole report said that basically i want a new engine. and all the m s m was offering was erm a maximum of fifty pound and i was a very lucky person to have that. and so basically your complaint is what? well basically if you pay a hundred and sixty pound plus for a premium, you do not expect to get the sort end of the stick. i don't anyway. right, well let's put that to john collinswood. it's very difficult to answer individual cases, but i will do my best on guesswork here. i would guess that he has one of our plan three policies, which does actually have a limited of fifty pounds on the erm head gasket and three hundred pounds on the engine. now obviously in in a situation where a head gasket goes, there's no problem on that because that's straightforward. it does sound to me was there has to have been given a reason as to why the claim was rejected. now, if i can say to you if the vehicle was driven on and and on until the engine was damaged with a cylinder head gasket failure, then i would say yes we would repudiate it, because that would be customer negligence. now in fairness it wouldn't be our responsibility to to pay for a new engine if the vehicle had been drive on. but it is guesswork because i don't know the gentlemen concerned and i don't know the full facts. but i would say that if obviously a head gasket goes on a vehicle and somebody knowing that fact continues to drive the vehicle, yes — and damages their engine — yes i must say we would reject liability. so precisely what mr hill has already pointed out to you in the discussion which he's had with you. for what's is worth, as a motorist, i may tell you i'm thirty years standing, and i explained to the people when i phoned your office up, i've had thirty years standing as a driver, i check my oil, i check my water, i lost no compression, no water. yes, we believe your a good driver, yes, but your point is my point is that, in a word, bill, i mean i would quite honestly i'd refuse to go to a garage where that firm is you know offering the service. i'm in the dark here obviously because i haven't i haven't had access to this particular case. yes, it is very difficult, i know to comment on individual cases. i respect that. no, i would say that if an independent assessor has been dispatched to this is a good point worth bringing through in the event of erm a disagreement between ourselves and a policy holder, the policy holder has a number of aspects that they can they can approach. first of all, they are entitled to an independent assessor and they are profession independent assessors such as the a a or the r a c, who can inspect the vehicle, and if erm it's proved that the case is genuine then there is no argument on that. there is an important point i want to come to, and that is the office of fair trading, in connection with the society of motor manufacturers and traders, have brought out a code of practice last year, which we fully endorse and are members of, and put on our letterheads, which means that if people are dissatisfied with erm a rejection of a claim, or any other matter come to that, they have the right to write to them and complain and have their case investigated. erm i don't know whether roy is aware of that. i am aware of it, and i do know there are many breaches of the code. i mean some people obviously try to comply with it. i think, john, i want to come back to the basic one, and that is, as a customer, if you're handed what you think is an extended warranty to cover you for all sorts of things erm then you're very disappointed if you find that most of the things that are going to go wrong with your car are excluded. that's the fundamental basic issue. now if you're saying ‘ah, but we don't exclude them really and that's just the small print’ no, i'm not saying that. i haven't said that at all. right. well that's the problem. in the excitement of buying a car, and you get this extended warranty, the customers think they're covered and i don't think they are. i think i think there is definitely an element of that. when someone is purchasing a vehicle erm they are told that they have a guarantee or a warranty, in actual fact it's mechanical breakdown insurance. it is a contract of insurance, it's not an open-ended situation, and, yes, i think that people probably do get carried away with the euphoria of buying the vehicle. what i would say is that we endeavour to counteract that on the reasons that i've stated, by virtue of the fact that we invite them to read the policy. we write to them normally within seven days, ask them to read it, clarifying exactly the policy they've got, give them the option to pull out if they should so wish, and in fairness i have got to say that we've been doing that now for the last eighteen months. in all that time we have actually had two people say yes i would like to cancel, of all the policies that we've actually issues. well how i think there must be a general acceptance of the insurance. do you think that when people are buying the insurance that they have much of an idea about their consumer power? like, for instance, can they bargain with you to alter any of the exclusion clauses, or do they have to take it as it is and that's that? in general the exclusion clauses that we're talking about are, in general, are fairly reasonable. as i was saying earlier on, it is a contract a legally binding contract, which does lay down the actual contractual position, but as in every business we don't stick rigidly to the lettering of the policy, so erm in practice i think if you take the policy purely as it is erm it probably gives not as good effect of the policy as it actually is. but basically if people are relying on the print in that policy mhm it certainly does give them very little coverage. erm it depends on the policy they've actually issued. there is a range of policies offered. well that's another question i wanted to ask you about. when people are buying, another example of their purchasing power would be to say ‘well, now i want this particular policy and i want to combine it with a power that's available to me in that policy’. can they mix policies? no thirty pound policy gives and the cover that a four hundred pound policy gives is totally different. i would certainly advise anybody to to look at the policy, and if they want more cover speak to the dealer that they bought the vehicle from, because it may well be that they could have erm a much, much greater cover which is of more value to them. i've i've got your range of one to six here, john, and i'm not i must stress i'm not singling you out — i mean your company is fairly typical of what's happening in this area — but the main difference between one and six is that erm two and six is that number two covers for two hundred part up to two hundred pounds that includes vat, doesn't it? number six is up to three hundred. yes, but if you move on to to that to the mainstream of our policies, which is five and six, that covers up to a thousand pounds parts and labour. no, i've got number six in front of me, which is three hundred parts and labour. yes, we do a range from three hundred to a thousand pound. oh, i see. as you see it's not and the premium reflects that, does it? oh, that's right. i mean obviously erm a thousand pounds parts and labour is obviously a lot more expensive than a three hundred pound parts and labour. this is a point that i'm making, and i think it is worth the erm the consumers when they are going into buy vehicles to ask is this the best policy that i can have? now, obviously if it is a erm an old vehicle then obviously the cover is restricted, but normally if it's below five years or sixty thousand they can obtain up to a thousand pound parts and labour. so your plan five covers up to five hundred pounds and additional items like turbo and erm air conditioning and all sorts of things. it also but you've still got all these exclusions in there, john. they're still there. erm which ones are we talking about now? the ones about the negligence or bad workmanship of any description, any faults with the car at time of sale or inherent faults. right. those that have materialized but occur later. right. let's let's try and clarify a few of these points. obviously the policy is there if we can take let's try and do them one at a time. the negligence aspect of it, if somebody is negligent and doesn't, for example, keep the engine oil topped up and they drive their vehicle until the engine seizes, in fairness it's not the insurance company's responsibility to put that right if the customer has been negligent, and i don't think any reasonable person would ask us to do that in that situation. if i can move on to can i come back on that. supposing a fitter leaves the oil plug out of the car, there's a leak, the oil drains out of it and it causes some damage, but that damage doesn't appear until a thousand/two thousand miles later, are you going to exclude that or cover it? that's a very difficult question to answer. i mean if if if you've had your vehicle serviced and the sump plug hasn't been put back in, then obviously you've got a perfectly legitimate claim against the person that's done the work. so you're excluding it from your warranty and saying ‘don't bother us, go back to the trader’. oh, absolutely, i mean when you say a trader we were talking about a repair shop here if we're talking about servicing work and so on. i mean if a garage leaves the sump plug loose or doesn't erm put it back in, then obviously the whoever has done that work, if they are a legitimate erm service department would be more than happy to put that right and would apologise obviously, and the claim would obviously lie with them. i don't think anybody would expect the insurance company to pick up something of that nature. that claim would go against the person that's done the service. right. now let's take the situation, john. i bought a car secondhand. this has happened to the car at some time in its past, as a result of which the crank shaft's worn, the engine's a bit dodgy, but i buy it's not apparent when i buy it, but the engine breaks down after i've bought it and i've paid for this warranty, you're going to come back and say ‘oh, this was a defect inherent in the vehicle before you bought it, excluded by the warranty’. that's right. let's clarify that side of it. first of all, as i say, we only deal through motor traders anyway, and there is this liability that the motor trade have anyway, and obviously if if something like that has happened it's going to occur fairly rapidly, but certainly within three months or three thousand miles, and obviously the owner of the vehicle has a redress to the dealer and obviously if there's one of our policies on it we would probably accept liability on that, although i can't say for definite. but what i'm saying is that obviously in that situation it would be back to the dealer and the dealer would deal with it. but the chances are as a customer i go back to the dealer and he says ‘ah, you've got a warranty, claim on that’. in the first three months, three thousand miles, that doesn't tend to happen in fairness erm and something like that would come up erm within that time scale, so, yes, i mean they have the right to go back to the dealer and i must admit in my overall view of the motor trade these days they do they are trying harder and harder to look after their customers because obviously they're in business like everybody else, they know that their policy holders are covered by the sale of goods act merchantable quality, erm and so they realize that if these things happen then they will endeavour to to put the situation right. if it was a question that this vehicle was in that state when the sold it, then i would think that most of them would put that right themselves. however, if there was an insurance against it and they could claim against it i'm sure they would. so i think that really sort of covers that particular point. i think also on the inherent fault situation, i mean when somebody buys a vehicle the vehicle has to be of a standard obviously and if there are problems there then obviously people appreciate the fact that they can go back and this is really the point of dealing with a reputable dealer from the word go. but if they've got this nice little folder with the warranty on it, they think it's covered, don't they, by the warranty. erm in the last case you mean? well in any case. i mean if you buy a secondhand car and you get a warranty with it, you think it's covered by the warranty. you're saying it's not. no, no i'm not saying that at all. if you've read the policy obviously it details in the policy exactly what is covered and, as i say, depending on the premium paid depends on the type of cover that they have. well, what do you think people's expectations are when they come to you? i think in general by virtue of the fact that we go to great lengths to make sure that people fully understand exactly what they have got i mean we're not in a in a situation where we want people to think that they've got something they haven't, which is why we go to the lengths that we do erm to make sure that people are fully aware of what they've got, and if they're unhappy with what they've got then obviously within the fourteen day period we give them the right to cancel. but in general i think people accept the fact that with used vehicles erm that, depending on the age and mileage of the vehicle they've got, they accept that obviously they can't have a thousand pound cover on say a hundred thousand mile sierra for example. erm the cost of of insuring something like that would make it erm out of play basically. well could you tell me the number of people who are complaining now about faulty workmanship. i mean has it gone up recently? faulty workmanship? not as a general rule. i mean faulty faulty workmanship, you're talking really about garages and service work. there is always arguments as far as service work is concerned erm yes, i mean we do hear of complaints erm and obviously if it's one of our dealers obviously we endeavour to try and resolve any problems if it is one of our dealers. but i wouldn't say there was an increase in erm problems of that nature. john, can i just put one point here. what would be a reasonable premium for your plan two? erm it's very difficult because the actual prices that we charge are, in fact, trade prices. we don't, in fact, deal with the general public as such. we only deal through the trade by virtue of the fact that the vehicles are then covered under the sale of goods act. you must have some idea how much a customer would be expected to pay for it. mjc i would say somewhere round about seventy pounds. seventy pounds, and your maximum claim liability is limited to two hundred. erm on that, but don't forget that does cover the engine, the gearbox, the differential. there's no limit to the number of claims. it also covers the starter motor and the break master cylinder, and that is for a full twelve month period. yes, but it's seventy pounds for a maximum limit on any one claim of two hundred pounds. yes. i think, as i have said to you before, i think the plan two is one of our smaller policies, and it's unfair to continue to talk of that one. i mean obviously the the more you go up the scale the more competitive it becomes. yes, but i just want to make a point here. that two hundred pounds includes vat as well, does it not? well that's right, but, as i say, this is one of our smaller policies and we don't, in fairness, do a great number of those. it is really the plan five and plan six that that tend to be the bulk of our business, which, as i say, gives up to a thousand pound parts and labour, which is obviously a lot better than two hundred pounds. but you pay the premium for that. oh yes, there is i mean obviously we don't do that for seventy pounds because we couldn't obviously. mhm yes, about what amount of money would a purchaser expect to pay for that kind of cover? round about, as a erm a ball park figure, because it does vary on the dealer's claims rate, but you'd be looking at about a hundred and seventy five. a hundred and seventy five pounds? yes. but that would give a thousand pound parts and labour, and if you look at the coverage on a plan five you'll see that it covers turbo charges, air conditioning, central locking, as well as all the mainstream power train, all the electrics and everything else. if you look at it you can see it's very, very comprehensive. yes, you must have many people who don't claim at all on this insurance, they have no need to claim or just decide not to. i think in general cars, the newer vehicles, are becoming more and more reliable. i think with the advent of the japanese vehicles erm and the fact that standards are being improved by all the manufacturers generally, that, yes, overall the number of claims overall will reduce. and when people do come up to you and they have problems, about what percentage of those problems do you find you can't help them with? erm it's very difficult, very difficult to answer a question like that. as an overall thing we probably take about a hundred and fifty phone calls every day from policy holders, and i suppose out of that you i suppose you people that haven't erm have broken down at the side of the road will ring up or something. there's possibly, oh i don't know,there's probably five that have got say punctures or fanbelts gone, or erm service items which we have to say that are not covered, but that's a ball park figure. but it is fairly small. and so the majority of cases you can deal with? in the majority of cases, yes. as long as it's covered by the policy we're here to assist our customers and obviously that's how we're building our reputation. but you see i find this discussion slightly difficult to deal with because on the one hand you're saying yes, the exclusion clauses in the policy reduce the scope of your liability quite dramatically, and on the other hand you're saying but that's just the words in practice we behave quite differently. no. i think we've got to take the individuals. when we're talking about the negligence factor, obviously the insurance doesn't cover the negligence of of a repairer, erm any faults inherent at the time of purchase are obviously not our responsibility and i don't think any reasonable person would expect us to cover that because obviously we're we're in insurance, we're not taking on risks already, we're taking on a risk of mechanical failure of items after they're sold, not obviously before they're sold. john, could i just come to your brother. his claim would be excluded by your policy because it was a fault inherent at the time of purchase. in a case like that as i have said right from the outset, this is a conflict of interest for me. i i feel that my brother has been extremely badly treated. i believe i've got to be very careful what i say because i could be subject to legal action, but i think this whole case is appalling. i can't say any more than that. i'm endeavouring to resolve this problem. i've contacted the lloyds enquiry unit and they're dealing with the matter. it is this is a totally disgraceful situation, and i've also explained that to my brother and i am endeavouring to put this situation right, erm but it is a conflict of interests and i don't really know what else i can say. i understand that, but under the wording of your insurance that claim would be invalidated because it was a fault inherent at the time of purchase. erm in that situation i fail to understand how that can necessarily be to be honest, because the vehicle in question has done eighty thousand miles. now if that was totally inherent at the time, then i really fail how to see how it could have done eighty thousand miles, and i think that may be a point that's put across at the same time. there has been a failure of the crankshaft thrust washers in this case, and certainly in my view that's exactly what the insurance is there for, and by virtue of the fact that this company isn't honouring it i feel very strongly about and i'm endeavouring to correct that, but i think erm we've gotta be fair that this is a conflict of interest to me. well, i'd like to go back and talk to you about the exclusion clauses though, and the purchasing power of the people buying these things. right. usually a contract is seen as an agreement that is freely entered into by both parties, debating or arguing out the terms at arm's length, but in reality this is a take it or leave it operation, isn't it? erm the policies are offered in general most dealers in fairness this question of charging for the policy, in the majority of dealers that we've actually got they include it within the within the purchase price of the vehicle anyway. in the majority of cases it is something that is given free of charge. now obviously in a case like that there doesn't really need to be a great deal of negotiation because obviously if it's something being given ex gratia then really obviously people really can't be in a position to argue too much. what i would say, as i have said before, is that there are a range of polices. if people are unhappy with the policy that they've got, by all means talk to the dealer and say is it possible to have an increased coverage, because in the majority of cases erm that can happen. they may ask for an extra premium if they're including it they may ask for a bit towards it, but they can give a better cover. so, yes, i think that they any prospective purchaser should look at the insurance and just make sure he's getting the very best that he can on his vehicle. yes, but i think prospective car buyers are currently spoiled for choice with offers of discounts and low cost insurance and all sorts of things. oh they certainly are at but you you say it's included free of charge. well i don't think there's anything as free insurance. i think it comes out somewhere along the line out of the consumer's pocket. oh, i've no doubt that somewhere down the line these things are are built it, but what i'm saying is that the majority of dealers these days are including it within the package and saying look this vehicle comes with it completely because there is such erm a demand for this erm type of insurance. erm people do look for protection when they're when they're buying the second purchase of their lives in most cases. they do look for protection, and that's really where companies like ours come in. well we've talked mostly about various difficulties that bona fide complainants in the public have about the insurance company, what about the other way around? do you find that sometimes members of the public try it on with the insurance people? it's an enormous problem for us, unfortunately, by by virtue of the fact that we we do most of our claims over the telephone. we are misled time after time after time when people have problems like they're having their vehicle serviced, it's put a claim in for a water pump, and have the cost of their service paid for. we have horrendous fraudulent situations and i would say as an average week we have about ten of those. right, well thanks very much john collinswood. over to you, roy hill. i think this is a modern syndrome. it's a good selling point. if you're selling cars, you've got a guarantee warranty with it, and i think most customers are misled into believing that those guarantees and warranties cover far more than they do in fact. the advice is read the small print. as always, i suppose. many thanks to my two guests — to john collinswood from mechanical management services limited in thame, and to roy hill the deputy trading standards officer for oxfordshire county council. that's it from me, bill heine. thanks for joining us. goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today i'm joined by four people from kuwait and we'll be getting the kuwaiti reaction to the war in the gulf. there are three main areas of questions i'd like to put. first of all, in the kuwaiti's own view, does it mean to be kuwaiti? who lived in kuwait before august second and what were the conditions of life. secondly, what is the kuwaiti position on major issues in the region — nationhood, religion, balance of power, balance of wealth, and finally what future role to kuwaitis aspire to, what sort of peace to they want or expect. before turning to these questions, though, i'd like to get some reactions to the current situation, and i might as well put my first question to jossom. what do you think is going on in the war jossom? i believe you're a member of the kuwaiti parliament — is that right? yes, that's correct. and how do you feel the war is going? erm we are concerned because erm perhaps we are getting rather impatient erm and we'd like to see erm the war end as soon as possible with least amount of casualties, and it seems that erm saddam hussein is somehow trying to drag this war into a lengthy one by perhaps not retaliating or hiding. even though, unfortunately, his army and possibly some civilians might be affected by this, which as human life again which seems to be not of so much importance for him. but erm do you feel that it's you have an optimistic sense about the way the war is going? are you apprehensive? it's too early to judge really erm we all realize that the might of the international forces in relation to the iraqui forces is quite different is much more. we are optimistic in the sense that there is a process of liberation going on. as far as kuwait is concerned we'd like to see our country free again and this gives us the type of hope we have been wanting for the past six months, and i am sure for the people inside kuwait — because i was there for about three weeks prior to the after the invasion i was there and i had to escape that country. yes, how did you escape? through the desert with my family and through the perils of the desert and erm it took us about eight hours to to go through the desert, which normally takes two hours, and it was very difficult. we ran out of water and some other friends ran out of water and we had to help each other and we were getting stuck in the sand and the heat was very high because it was in august and it was around noon time, so erm some people actually turned back erm they couldn't continue, unfortunately; they are friends of ours. they couldn't continue, so it was quite difficult and we had to avoid the iraqui army as we did that. do you now hear from your friends in kuwait what conditions are like? well i'd like to have fareda, would you like to fareda you run and art gallery when you're there in kuwait. yes. is that art gallery still standing? i don't think so because it's in the main street called street and i was taken over the first day. it was looted. so i don't think so. yes, right. we have no access to it anyhow. all right. you've heard from friends in kuwait recently? yes, i have my husband back there and i have a sister and a brother. the brother's a doctor and of course he refused to leave. he has got his own clinic in his house. erm a sister who sends out wonderful letters and they've been published, and my husband he calls, you know, whenever he can. and how are they bearing up? i mean what's it like for them day to day living? my husband puts it very nicely. he says you have to have erm nerves of steel. by now they are probably nerves of iron because, you know, you have to co-exist with an army like that he has to really take it fairly easy because they can be quite rude and, you know, shove you around get whatever they want and very harmful methods. so you just have to take it fairly easy, you know, calm down and yes and and everything will go well. and has he seen any particular kinds of treatment of the kuwaiti people that we've been hearing about? yes, of course, erm you know it's very humiliating being under that regime now, but as to whether what he's seen exactly he will not talk about it. he doesn't want to disturb me, but my sister has, yes. what has she said? her letters what hasn't she said ? she's talked about deaths, rapes, children being taken from homes erm people being shot in front of their parents erm people disappearing from the streets. erm it's it's we've recorded it all in amnesty international. mhm well you've told me a bit about what's it's like to be inside kuwait, what about the kuwaitis outside kuwait? what is life like from them? maybe dehad would like to answer that one. welcome to the programme dehad. hello. well obviously the kuwaitis erm living outside live under a hardship, are living under a tremendous amount of pressure. as you know, most kuwaitis, if not all, have families inside kuwait. erm most of them haven't heard much from their families, no news at all, for the last six months and it's been very difficult for us. our lives are ruined. our future is uncertain. erm that's from a that's on a personal basis. erm at the moment our country is occupied erm the only thing erm holding erm holding us through it is hope, hope of turning back and the erm the determination our friends, our families inside kuwait. yes. could you tell me how people outside kuwait from that country are contributing to the war effort. well erm for instance like myself erm like what we are doing in the association for free kuwait erm as you know it's erm it's basically after august the second, after the invasion a group of private citizens, a group of kuwaiti citizens, formed this association. we felt that it is our duty to to inform the people about the situation of kuwait, about kuwait in general, it's culture, it's erm as a nation, and erm in addition to help the kuwaiti community erm and at the moment erm we are collecting information erm either on the general situation inside kuwait city at the moment, or erm generally more information about kuwait. all right. excuse me. yes, go ahead. in addition to that also erm we have we have been in constant contact with the erm kuwait red crescent, which is based now in bahrain, and we are erm helping to get kuwaitis in touch with the kuwait red cross in bahrain, have them trained erm to know first aid basics, donate blood, so on so forth. well, let's move on to mohammed, and i should say that i'm identifying each one of the people in the studio by their first names because it would be dangerous to identify them by their surnames. i appreciate it, thank you. mohammed, what do you think of the allied tactics, the bombing of bridges and roads and utilities as well as military installations? is it necessary? well i think this war the aim of this war is to achieve erm minimum casualty, and by doing what the allied forces are doing by denying the iraqui forces the logistics such as transportations and communication system is very vital to reduce the power of the enemy and then you can force him to retreat, or you can weaken the army that will result in minimum casualty for the allied forces. but what about the argument that in order to save kuwait the allies have to destroy it. i mean where do you draw the line? what is unacceptable? well erm destroying erm kuwait erm it's not an easy thing because erm what the allied forces are doing is erm attacking the important military bases and military installation. the kuwait the kuwait cities are designed in such a way that the military installations and erm are outside the country, so from the eyewitnesses that we receive that all the bombings are on the outskirts of the city, no damage to kuwait city or to the civilians inside kuwait. well it seems to me that the utilities and the supplies to the iraqui forces are one of the warm aims. to destroy them is one of the war aims, and that means that the fabric, the infrastructure, of your cities is being gutted. well instead of going and destroying utility plants such as power plants and desalination plants, there are actually easier way and a less expensive way to do it is by attacking like sub-stations which erm actually you don't destroy the power plant, you just destroy the erm source where you can distribute electricity to the whole country. so this is not a major destructive force. they can do erm damage to a section of the network erm that does not bring about major destruction and with this accurate bombing that we've been seeing this kind of operation is possible. fareda, i'd like to come back to you because you said that you had quite a bit of information from people currently in kuwait. do you know if there are major aspects of the civilian life blood of their country being ripped out? i'm sorry, i didn't understand that. civilian life well, different utilities, different roads are being destroyed, bridges, i mean are these things going on? within kuwait? yes. the iraquis did that as of second of august. i don't think they can take any more, you know they've left nothing there, but now the allies — i don't think there is much, and even if they have they call them surgical, you know, sight bombing mhm so i don't think they've found anybody. jossom, do you think that the allies' war aims are to destroy iraqui military and the iraqui regime, or to liberate kuwait? what would be the priorities that you would put these war aims? actually, they are erm interconnected. if you want to liberate kuwait, which is the aim of the united nations resolutions, it is to reduce the forces of the invaders, hoping, as my friend mohammed mentioned,hoping that the invaders themselves will see the reasoning behind pulling away and saving their own arm and their own lives. so the fact that the liberation of kuwait is the primary target, then the invaders have used force, therefore force is the counterbalance and what is happening right now is they try to dismantle this war machine and make it ineffective, so it is interconnected. now if, hopefully, the people of iraqui see that their whole country is now being subjected to such much devastating attacks, hopefully that they would overthrow their regime, because that regime has brought nothing but misery to the people of iraq and has added to the catalogue of misery of the world. if we look into the history of iraq i don't think anybody can remember in the past twenty years they have contributed anything, neither in the terms of world economy, neither in the world of world peace, or any humanitarian well well i want to understand more about kuwait, though, as a result of this programme, and a lot of people don't really know what it means to be kuwaiti. well who are the kuwaitis and how do they differ and how are they different from the saudi arabians and the southern iraquis? we have, even though we are arabs and we are neighbouring countries like saudi arabia and the emirates, but we have our own identity and it is very distinct. in what does it consist? first of all kuwait as a country goes back to seventeen fifty. it has always been known as kuwait, and erm the settlers of kuwait are arabs that came from saudi arabia and the southern part of iraq and the southern parts of iran, and they are settlers there. they are merchants and in their life before the oil they were very well known merchants and they had tribesmen in that area. and they chose themselves to have the ruling family to be the al sabar family. yes, but they differ from people in saudi arabia or from southern iraq because of their language, or because of their race, or their religion? no, no. what is that characterises the kuwaiti? in this respect we have many things in common with them, but with our mental erm structure, our habits of being tradesmen created the kuwaiti community to be adventurous, to be erm well co-ordinated with each other, to have erm ambitions and to be wise in the use of their resources. so if you look as to how kuwait grew by after the oil it gives a good example how we put the use of the oil to the betterment of mankind. in other words, we have a welfare state, we help the international community with our foreign aid, and we are very progressive and we use the most up-to-date erm technology in developing our country and erm we are paying no taxes, and very progressive. and we have constitution since nineteen sixty two, which is a democratic constitution, which has been governing our country unlike our neighbours. well, yes, i want to find out some about the history of kuwait. i mean the defining moments in the kuwaiti history are what? the english have ten sixty six and the armada and the swiss have william tell, well what are the landmarks of kuwaiti history? erm if we go back, kuwait has always been an independent country until the ottoman empire was erm threatening that area, and they were ruling the arab peninsula, which later to be known as iraq, and when the kuwaiti people felt the threat of the ottoman empire they signed a treaty with the british at that time, and that was in eighteen ninety nine and iraq was established in nineteen twenty, so we are are ahead of that. that is our heritage and that's our identity which we kept, and that's one thing which we are very proud of. and in nineteen sixty one, when we got our independence, immediately we had the constitution committee and we wrote our constitution. well what about the british role in all this? could kuwaiti have existed without british protection? i think it's difficult to say that, but erm we feel that the british protection was very important for the erm sovereignty, for maintaining the external sovereignty of kuwait, but our internal affairs has always been within the kuwaiti community. well what do you think motivated the british protection of kuwait? i believe erm the rulers of kuwait at the time were very erm wise to to to make such treaty with the british for the protection of their country and the british respected the kuwait autonomy at the time and this joint erm respect for each other i believe which gave rise to kuwait to be what it is today. mhm do you think it had anything to do with protecting the routes to india? i doubt it. i'm not sure, but kuwait was a very important a very important erm port. yes, we had many trade lines with india and the eastern coast of africa. i believe my friend is shaking her head yes, so we must have been also part of the route . yes because of it's also strategic erm location in addition to what my colleague here, jossom, has added in addition to it it has a strategic erm location as well. it's an important port and it connects the east with the west. and during the last two centuries, especially when britain had strong ties with india and the indian sub-continent and the trade was flourishing on those routes. it is an important location. we had a fleet of about eight hundred ships,that is, in kuwait, which is erm much more than any other gulf state at the time. all right. well, before the invasion who lived in kuwait? the kuwaiti population is about one point seven million erm about six to seven hundred thousand of them are the kuwaiti nationals. the rest were ex-patriots. that's a very large proportion of ex-patriots. it is, and that is the advantage of kuwait, and that is one thing which which perhaps the world should appreciate, that we were a haven for ex-patriots to come there and make a living and work. we had close to four hundred thousand palestinians, we had almost a hundred and eighty thousand indians, ninety thousand erm from bangladesh, about eighty thousand phillipinos and we had about also seventy five thousand pakistanis and erm many other erm nationalities. i think we have something like a hundred and twenty nationalities living in kuwait and enjoying the free school, the free hospital. well that that's wanted to ask. do did kuwaitis pay taxes? no, nobody paid taxes. not everybody in kuwait was not subjected to tax. of course all the revenues from oil went to the government, but equally on the other side is the welfare state. nobody paid any kind of tax. well what services did you get from the state? do you want to answer that mohammed or dehad. mohammed. yes. the people the people who are living in kuwait, they got all the basic erm services such as electricity and water, which is, you know, water is processed a mechanically processed system, we don't have rivers and we don't have portable water wells erm we process our own water through erm desalination plants located at on the gulf. the erm also the government provided a very sophisticated network of erm of erm sewage systems for the country. they provided education, free education, free health services erm one of the modern communication system and ports erm and they ensure job for every kuwaiti, so you will not find an unemployed kuwaiti, as soon as he is able to do one job or another the government provided the training for a large number of kuwaiti to provide technical works. what about the ex-patriots, did they pay taxes? no. nobody pays taxes in kuwait did they get the same services? and the ex-patriots receive the same services as kuwaitis. and even if they transfer money jossom. in and out of kuwait they never have to their only restrictions at any time, never, even if kuwait had a financial crisis because of the crash of its stock market one expected that people might move their capital outside the country because of it, but there was no restrictions, no control, everybody was free, you could walk in and out of the country mhm any part. were these ex-patriots a part of your workforce and presumably they contribute greatly to the country. what happens to them on their retirement from their working life? erm there is for the kuwaitis erm we just recently started a social security system for the kuwaitis. for the international people there are civil laws, by which they companies have to provide what we call indemnities for the person who works and these indemnities go according to certain formulas, which is known by everybody, and it's in a way protecting them after they leave. erm many people came to kuwait to work for a short term and after a while they realised it's fine so they continued to stay there for a long time, and that is the haven that we were talking about. unfortunately, all the ex-patriots, including the kuwaiti, lost everything they had after the invasion. in other words the iraqui forces took over the banks, they looted everything. everybody had to leave, almost much poorer than when he came into kuwait, including ex-patriots. well these ex-patriots, i'd like to look at their situation a little bit more carefully. is naturalisation open to them? yes, but very restricted erm in other words if you look at the history of kuwait for the time that we received or we got our independence, we had to start our nationalisation process as an independent country. at that time it was more erm easy to get kuwait nationality, so we have egyptians, we have palestinians, we have indians, we have pakistanis, iranians who got kuwaiti nationality when it all started. with time, as it became more lucrative a country for people to come, obviously the country had to be more restrictive about providing the nationality. you can apply for it, but it takes a little longer than other places to obtain it. yes. how long does it take about? well, it depends, because there's a committee that is responsible for this and you have to bring many erm recommendation letters and you have to bring a lot of documents and eye witnesses to go by this rule. are there quotas? no, no, there's no such thing as quotas there. it is just a matter of how you can build up the kuwaiti nationality to go along with the growing community in the country and we were just a developing country. all right. will the state, after liberation, enlarge the definition of kuwaiti? pardon. could you say that again. well, after liberation yes. will the state have a more relaxed view to who can be a kuwaiti? i am sure the events will have erm an effective signature on the life of kuwait, yes, it will have. however, how it is going to look like is going to depend after when we go back, when the system of government gets organised and then we've got to look into this whole idea of how to live in kuwait, which i am sure will be open to changes, to modifications, and anything is possible. all right. but my last word on the ex-patriots is can kuwait survive without a foreign labour force? no, it cannot. i cannot survive. technically it cannot, physically it cannot, because we have such erm large programmes of development that you need the manpower, you need the muscle, and the majority of them have left now and that'll be a new dilemma for kuwait and it's rebuilding operation to bring back people to help develop with it's own kuwaiti dehad i understand that. it's also a dilemma also for their own countries. for instance erm the erm ruminations of the ex-patriots towards their homelands, towards their families, had contributed a lot erm for some countries towards their j and p as a percentage for their j and p . as a result of the invasion, the iraqui invasion on august the second, many economies, especially in the third world countries developing countries, have been affected a lot by this crisis, not only in terms of erm world trade, the international security, the stability in the world, stability in the international markets and so on so forth, but also with regard to the ruminations from the ex-patriots living in the gulf area in general. erm that's another element erm of the dilemma. i mean it's not only kuwait as a country has been affected erm with regard to the ex-patriots, also the countries, the home countries of the ex-patriots, have been affected a lot, especially the third world countries. all right. well, i'd like to move on well, before we do that, let's go to norman. norman is calling from basingstoke and has a question for you. hello norman. hello bill. well my question was to be erm would your guests be happy to return to a kuwait the same as it was before, but having listened i feel somewhat enlightened, although perhaps they'd still like to answer the question in that form. but i would like to add what is the political situation there? one gets the impression it was an autocracy and not a democracy. have they any feelings about that, plus my other question. jossom. thank you for your interest in listening to us. the kuwaiti system of government consists of the emir, which is the ruler, and the constitution which is written by the people of kuwait in nineteen sixty two. in the constitution we have two bodies. one is the government, which is the emir of kuwait, and his cabinet, which is around fourteen to sixteen ministers. they form the government of kuwait. they are the executive body, and the national assembly is the people of the kuwait, and fifty members are directly elected by the people through the twenty constituencies which we have, and you have here the legislative body, in other words a parliament of fifty members and the government, and they sit together and they run the business of the country like any other parliament, and if you look to the television and see what happens in the house of commons, it is exactly what happens in kuwait. oh, i hope not . can you tell me can you tell me i mean the freedom of talking. yes, i understand. yes, jossom, you've been in parliament over there. for how long? actually my father was one of the first parliament members of kuwait, but i became a member only just before the invasion by two months. bill. yes, norman. does the will of the kuwaiti parliament transcend the will of the emir and does parliament carry the day? yes, who's got in the hierarchy of power, who really is top dog? it is the people, the parliament actually, because the emir when he proposes a cabinet the parliament can accept the cabinet, or change, or request it to be changed and even the prime minister, which is proposed or nominated by the emir, the cabinet has to approve him, and together they they run the business of the government. however, the emir has the right to dissolve the government temporarily. the national assembly, up to only a certain period of time, according to the constitution, and then again the parliament has to come back again into the picture. and if parliament passes a law yes. can anybody overrule it? erm only the emir, and he has to give very erm strict reasons for it and he sends it back to the parliament to look into it again and when it comes back the second time the emir can pass it. but it is has he got to pass it? he can. yes, i think he has to pass it. yes. now that's a very detailed thing regarding the technicality of running the parliament, which i am sorry i cannot right now answer you, but it's covered. okay. so okay, in general then you'll be quite happy to go back to a the kuwait that you knew? let me add here erm i don't want to say that we will duplicate what is happening, but if there's going to be any reform to be done it is open and you can introduce reform into our constitution once you have the parliament back again and the emir and such reform can be introduced. we are considering even the woman to vote hopefully soon. you mean currently women cannot vote? yes, at this moment they do not vote. yes. yes, dehad, you mean the political life of the country is devoid of you're erm whatever you have to offer? well that's right erm but then on the other hand erm there are other avenues in erm the social life of kuwait the political life of kuwait that i can offer, and i can contribute and as a matter of fact can affect for instance? well i could speak from a personal experience. when i was a student at kuwait university we had a lot of lectures, political lectures. we had our opinion with regard to the political life in kuwait. there are are lot of things that i erm personally i wasn't in agreement with erm things erm how things the government has run things. well could you tell me precisely? well there was erm during the eighties, for instance, there was a lot of talk going on about having some changes within the constitution. i as a person didn't find that these changes were essential and i stated my opinion in erm in what were the erm proposed changes? at the moment really i can't erm specifically recall them, but the i saw the personally, the direction of them, there wasn't i didn't agree with erm them, but then there were other erm other citizens erm they saw that they were healthy changes. this is erm this is a kind of positive contribution. however, i am looking forward to erm to the new kuwait, to the kuwait after liberation, because there were discussion about the erm participation of erm kuwaiti woman within the political life of kuwait and erm this was in a conference in october, as i recall, and the prime minister, the political leadership of kuwait, has stated that erm after the liberation of kuwait erm women will have erm far more erm participation within the political erm life of kuwait. jossom. at this moment in kuwait we have three positions of under-secretary, which is the number two position after the minister, who are kuwaiti women. they hold as high positions as that and they run ministries, and i'd like to add that in kuwait the number of women deans in the kuwait university is the highest in the world, so the woman is working side-by-side by the man, and we are very proud of them, we always have been, and especially after the invasion when i was in kuwait on the fourth day the people who went in the streets chanting against the iraqui invasion were the kuwaiti women. they had pictures of the emir, the crown prince, and the flag of kuwait, and they said saddam get out. that is how courageous they have been. mhm and mohammed. well also just my experience, my own experience with the developments of and the evolution of the policies in kuwait coming at working at kuwait institute for scientific research, there were many erm studies conducted at kuwait institute for scientific research and the other institute, the social erm political institute, and they were the main of that was the probe through all these policies and through these institutions we have in kuwait and try to improve it to a standard that the kuwaiti people and the neighbouring country can benefit from at that . well, norman, we'll come back to you for a final comment. oh, thank you, bill. yes, it occurs to me to ask is islam less strict in kuwait than it is in saudi arabia, where, i gather, women are not allowed to drive cars, thieves will have their hands cut off and things like that. are you less severe in kuwait? jossom. that's putting your question a rather smart way i must say . no, i don't think it's the same islam, it is just how you want to go about it erm in kuwait, and i don't want to say that we prefer our islam more than what the saudis do. no, i don't mean that. in kuwait it is just that we by the way in kuwait we have two courts, we have the civil courts and we have the islamic court, and erm islamic cases go to the islamic court and otherwise they go to the civil court, except just we we accept erm how to live our live in a modern way and keeping up with the times, and it is a tradition that we have adopted in kuwait, and the fact that it is for women can drive in kuwait versus those that don't in saudi arabia, i don't believe i'd like to put that in the islamic context, it's just a way of life which we have adopted. you say there are two kinds of court, islamic courts and civil courts. yes. well when there is a criminal case does that got to the islamic or well it depends, if what cases would go to the islamic courts? usually they go to civil courts, such criminals like stealing or killing, you know things like that. yes, what will go to the islamic one? you have things like heredity, marriages, divorces, erm some way of life which has to do with islamic doctrine that you do and some dispute happens, you take it to the islamic courts and they have religious judges who take it in that context and they go according to the laws of islam. well i'd like to get your reactions to some of the major regional issues. when iraq invaded iran what was the position of the kuwaiti government and of the kuwaiti people. dehad, do you want to answer that one? it's a very difficult one, i realise. no, well actually erm as i recall it erm well as you remember as well that 1980, 1979/1080, after the revolution in iran, the situation in the gulf in general was under turmoil. there was a lot of things going on erm a lot of uncertainties, political uncertainties, so on so forth but what was the position of the kuwaiti government? well erm it was actually erm trying to erm eliminate erm the erm dangers of the war, to stop the war, because it's not for anyone so they were neutral? no, well up to a certain extent i am afraid, not all the way. all right, whom were they supporting? well there erm there were facilities, a lot of facilities given to iraq, but i might as well add that the erm whole of the erm middle east, the arab world, were backing iraq in that conflict. personally, from a personal view during those years i was erm going for a neutral stance on the conflict because it didn't help any cause and it only hurt and harmed the peoples of both iraq and iran. all right. jossom. erm in general we must remember that iran was erm stating very clearly that it was exporting it's revolution and there were statements which came out from the iraqui from the irani revolutionary committee that they were against the arab states at the time and that they were very committed towards liberating israel through baghdad and such statements was coming, so obviously erm the arabs had to stick together according to charter of the league of arab states, which everybody was a member of, and iraq being subjected to to to war it was natural for the arabs to give iraq support. now it didn't mean that you build his war machine, but the kuwaiti people being so close, or actually bordering, we helped the economy of baghdad, we helped the economy of the iraq, and we contributed thirteen billion dollars, just the government alone, to their economy and the people of kuwait also helped with their own private donation to help the schools, the hospitals, the food, whatever they needed, and the country of kuwait was erm trying to be, as my friend said, as neutral as possible because there is irani interest in kuwait, very great through trade, through iranis who work in kuwait, so we had a very difficult position with respect to keeping both parties erm sort of in sight, not lose sight of them from our humanistic point of view, but it was erm difficult to to to avoid being on the side of the iraqui, mainly because they're neighbours and they're arabs, and you're part of the league of arab states, so you can't draw the line and say the government was pro or against, but that was the atmosphere which we were leaving. all right. fareda, do you think that the people of kuwait supported saddam in that war? erm i think to defend our interests, to a certain extent, yes, you know we were threatened and erm in that sense only perhaps. i don't think that one could have a consensus with that regard, i mean people were split really on that issue erm as i have said, personally i was always against the whole thing, against the war in general between iraq and iran because it was devastating for both countries. yes. did kuwaitis actually fight or die in that war? no, no, there was no military participation of any sort. on the contrary, there was attempts to the life of our emir during the iraq/iran war because we were taking relatively trying to be neutral there, and there was a bomb attack on him, and he personally survived it, a few others died, and it had to do directly with the iran/iraq war. we couldn't realise who was doing it, but it was very mixed up, so we were trying to be as neutral as possible, without getting dragged into it directly. as my friend say, we did provide them facilities like the port of kuwait for the incoming foodstuff and material which iraqui needed came through our ports and through our roads to their erm to bahrain to baghdad. mhm and mohammed. well i was erm i was erm out of the country. i was in the united states when the invasion of iraq the invasion of iraq into iran, and i saw the whole situation with the aid of erm the united states mass media, so actually erm i had different ideas about erm what is the outcome and what is the results of the erm invasion was, and i took erm throughout the conflict i took an opposing view, because i always viewed the iraquis as being aggressor and they inflicted damaged to a neighbouring country and erm they had erm no whatsoever rights to do anything like that and we see it again when erm they invaded kuwait, they have no right at all erm they it is just the policy of the governing body of the iraqui regime. they are they are aggression forces, that's all. and another major regional issue is the plight of the palestinians. in kuwait there are about how many palestinians? i mentioned earlier, there are about four hundred thousand. four hundred thousands. now that must be one of the largest settlements of palestinians. yes, they are the largest settlements and that proves to the world and proves to everybody how the palestinians chose kuwait as a place to live, rather than iraq or any other state. but we have reports that palestinians and other ex-patriots they helped the invading iraquis and took part in the looting. how do you explain that? it is true, but we cannot generalise. we know for sure in kuwait, being so close to the palestinians, that the palestinian leadership does not really represent the palestinian people, and there is, within the leadership, erm qualms — they don't all agree. the people of palestine in kuwait generally are people who just want to live and make and living and support their own erm cause, and on the contrary we have many palestinians who helped the kuwaitis and protected them during the invasion. we know of palestinians who came from iraqui with the regime, so these are palestinians who follow the regime. they are equally as brutal as the saddam hussein group is. unfortunately, those four hundred thousand palestinians lost everything in kuwait, and erm it'll be important to know that for each palestinian in kuwait there's at least two or three other palestinians whom they support outside kuwait, in other words in jordan, west bank and the gaza strip, so totally the palestinians who got devastated by this invasion is about one point two million palestinians. they lost, thanks to saddam hussein's invasion. yes, and mohammed. actually the government and the people of kuwait did not really stop, erm only providing assistance to the palestinians who are living in kuwait. it went even beyond its border. kuwait government and the people of kuwait provided assistance to the palestinians all over the world, including the palestinians living in occupied land. it provided them with assistance in their education, in their hospitals, actually one of the biggest hospitals in the occupied lands in palestine, it was funded more than seventy per cent by kuwaiti governments and their university was also from tuition and the salaries of professors they are all sponsored by the kuwait government. i'd like to add that the palestinian community in kuwait are quite well to do. we have one of the largest contractors are palestinians. we have businessmen, shop keepers, shop owners, professors in the university, teachers and the high level of the technical working class in our government posts are palestinians, and we grew with them. i mean for thirty years we feel like brothers and sisters with them, and it is unfortunate that saddam hussein has turned it all now against everybody. when the sabbat family is restored to kuwaiti, what will happen to the remaining palestinians? i don't think we'd like to now, under this emotional shock, try to justify what happens between the people the community of kuwait. i'd like to be very clear here that emotionally and using emotions now against your intellect, i think it's very dangerous and it is we like to avoid this. i believe the kuwaiti people naturally are a peace loving people and we will never forget that erm good nature of us and we will try to capitalise on that and maintain peace and kuwait become again a country which has to have peaceful causes everybody. but as member of the national assembly, do you think those palestinians are those people who fled to india and the philippines etc. will be allowed back. as a matter of fact we want them back because first of all they left everything in kuwait and left. they they left their own personal belongings and i know from very close friends that those palestinians who didn't like the invasion they left kuwait and went back to jordan, so we hope they come back. the indian community i was in contact with when i was in delhi, they like to come back to kuwait. we want them back because they are part of our livelihood. they helped build kuwait and they know about kuwait and we know about them and we trust each other. we'd like all of us to come back there. i'd also i'd like to get your views on the future prospects for peace. so i suppose the only answer is to take the unusual step of inviting you back tomorrow, and i hope we can continue the conversation tomorrow. but for today, many thanks to mohammed, to jossom, to dehad and to fareda. that's it from me, bill heine. thanks for joining us. goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today we'll be talking about sexual harassment in oxford colleges. a recent survey indicated that most perpetrators, forty two per cent, with women's fellow students, while twelve per cent of the cases involved academic staff. but exactly what is sexual harassment. one male don in an interview said ‘some people think that sexual harassment is positively desired, that there isn't a problem and that women quite enjoy it’. i'm joined by three women who will have views on that, i'm sure. first of all, suzanne gibson is a law tutor at new college. marianne talbot is a philosophy don at pembroke, a joanna innes is the senior proctor this year. suzanne gibson, welcome to the programme. what do you think sexual harassment is? well i think there's a difficulty here because i think one of the questions is a matter of perspective erm how do you define how you define what sexual harassment is is to an extent a factor of your perspective on the question in that i think that tutors who have been thinking about it in recent years, and women tutors, who have taken the lead in it, have tended to think about the implications from the institutional perspective, that is how do tutors behave to their students and in what ways may that affect students' studies and their live in the college. i think what's very striking about the report which the students' union have recently published and are circulating around the university, is the extent to which they have tended to define sexual harassment as being as much or at least as much a problem between students, a problem of behaviour between students and a problem of the sort of atmosphere in the colleges in terms of how that affects how peoples lives feel and and how they are how their behaviour what sort of behaviour is acceptable. so i think there are different perspectives which tend to define the issue differently. but something about your comments worries me a great deal, and that's the fact that many women tutors, you say, have been looking at this issue, but they haven't looked at the major part of the issue, which is from the students' perspectives and the problem that goes on between students. they've been focusing on the relationship between staff and students and so why did you focus on what appears to be the short end of the stick, rather than the major problem? well i know that my colleague joanna innes wants to comment on this, but if i could answer that immediately, i think there is a question about how you define what the major problem is. i think the fact that erm only twelve per cent of perceived sexual harassment cases come from tutors isn't to make that a minor problem, because the impact that sexual harassment, coming from tutors, institutional actors as it were, can have on students is phenomenal and you know one can't get too tied up in terms of the amount or the quantity of sexual harassment, i think one has to consider the quality of sexual harassment as well if one can put it that way, and it's by no means a minor problem. all right, well let's look not just at the quantity, but at the quality. are there any reported rapes between staff and students? not as far as i know. well are there reported rapes between students? well, yes, i think there's a recent report of a rape erm i think if you're saying well, you know, a rape is a very, very serious incident of sexual harassment, that's not to be denied, and i think it goes beyond being sexual harassment. but there's a whole range of behaviours which one can include in sexual harassment, going from fairly mundane every day things which just grind people down and which grind people down because they happen on a constant basis, to very serious once in a while sorts of behaviours, and to try and categorise them as major or minor doesn't really get us very close to being what the issue is about. well how do you see the issue? go go ahead. marianne talbot is a philosophy don at pembroke college. i'd like to just bring you back to the first question you asked, which was how do you define sexual harassment. i think it's a terribly difficult thing to do, but i'd like to have a go at it in the following way, by saying that somebody is a case of sexual harassment has occurred when the behaviour of one person makes another person uncomfortable in such a way that that person, the person who's uncomfortable, becomes overly conscious of their gender or sexual characteristics. now that can happen both ways, but it's very important that one feature of that is that it makes somebody uncomfortable. clearly there's sexual interaction or social interaction between men and women that one person would decide is sexual harassment and another wouldn't. one would enjoy the flirting. but if it makes somebody uncomfortable and makes them overly conscious of their gender erm and perhaps how they look, then that's what i think is sexual harassment. but uncomfortableness is a notoriously wide term. what do you mean by it? mhm well i think it can go from anything, i mean just a vague feeling of suddenly being put off what you're talking about because you've suddenly become conscious of how you're looking. i mean that can be both pleasurable, but also make somebody feel uncomfortable. i mean i can give you a little example erm i was once trying to add up a series of figures in the middle of an admissions exercise, and one of the other one of the men said to me ‘oh, come on, you're far too pretty to do mental arithmetic’ and i completely lost my train of thought, i got rather confused. i was able to come back on that and add up the figures perfectly competently, but i can imagine that other people might not have been able to, and but how do you deal with those not been efficient in their job. but those kind of comments are are indicative of the mind of the person making them. i mean it's a lovely insight into where they're coming from, who they are, what their priorities are, and i welcome those kinds of comments, because at least then it's out into the open. you mean you'd like it if i interrupted you when you were doing something you interrupt me all the time marianne. and say ‘bill, you're so pretty’. you can handle it, bill, but not everyone can. let's move on to my next guest . i don't want to trivialise the programme by saying you're wearing the most extraordinary outfit today, but joanna innes is a senior proctor, and you're dressed in a particularly strange way. yes, i'm wearing subfusc which is the sort of uniform students of the university always wear when they're taking exams, so it's a familiar sight on the street of oxford, but i'm also wearing clerical bands, which are a sign of my office. the idea is that people on the street could tell at a glance that i'm a proctor, which of course only the more informed of them can . right, well i didn't mean to put you off your stride. yes, your comments. well, perhaps i can say pick up on a couple of points in the discussion. first of all it's true that the term sexual harassment is used to cover an extraordinarily wide range of forms of behaviour, from behaviour that makes people mildly uncomfortable, to quite violent forms of aggression, and this can be a problem and confuse discussion. two people who think they are disagreeing may, in fact, be talking about different things and wouldn't disagree if they were talking about the same thing, but it's important to recognise that when the university and colleges talk about what they want to do about sexual harassment, they certainly imagine that a range of different forms of response are going to be appropriate to this range of different forms of behaviour, ranging from on the one hand education, encouraging people to think they have a right to protest and answer back, to giving them access to erm people who may mediate and persuade another person who they're not making an impact on that their behaviour is unreasonable, to the most extreme disciplinary procedures against someone who's behaving in a way which is generally thought to be unacceptable and who's not prepared to desist. perhaps the other point i can make is to go back to the question of why women tutors and people in the university generally have emphasised harassment of students by academic staff more than they've emphasised harassment by students of one another, and i think it's not that it was thought that students didn't commonly make each other uncomfortable, but as an issue of principle in terms of whether it's appropriate for university or college authorities to intervene in what many people regard as students' private lives. it's quite commonly said that twenty years ago the universities and colleges decided to treat students as adults and leave them to organise their own affairs erm and the argument about what to do in this area isn't an argument about whether it's a serious problem, but about what are appropriate and even effective forms of intervention. i think i think the only thing that i would disagree with there is that i strongly suspect that a lot of tutors in the university, not just women tutors but across the board, really have little idea of the level of sexual harassment that students that female students have identified as being problem in the questionnaire. now i'd have to say when i saw the report in the observer, which was a couple of months ago, the rape in the quad report, my feeling was that this was a national newspaper picking on oxford because oxford and sex makes great headlines and it was going to be a good sell, and i felt that it was inappropriate in that sexual harassment is a problem in other campuses. now i have to say that since i've seen a report from the students' union and have read it through, i was actually shocked at the level of harassment that that report seemed to indicate. what did it delineate? well, the statistics that you gave earlier for example, that erm was it forty two per cent of students perceive themselves to have been sexually harassed, or i think fifty per cent of students perceive themselves to have been sexually harassed, that is students who answered the questionnaire. now clearly there are, you know, methodological issues here, who replied on the questionnaire and so on, but there are clearly a very large number of replies, a very large number of students up in the, you know, several hundreds, who perceive themselves to be being sexually harassed. now as someone who's taught at other institutions — i've taught at the university of kent and at middlesex polytechnic — i think i was aware of the level of harassment which erm was there in those institutions, there certainly was sexual harassment, it certainly was a problem, but i have to say it didn't seem to me to be the problem that the students have identified it as being in oxford and i think that's striking and it's something that erm as tutors and as a university we really do have to think about. yes, but maybe oxford's full of of hothouse flowers. maybe these people are defining sexual harassment as things that other people wouldn't define it has. well i should think that's extremely unlikely. i think if anything it's more likely that what we'll have at oxford is some extremely tough women, because these are women who have made their way through the educational system and are tough cookies. some of them may well have been to boys' boarding schools and put up with this sort of behaviour i was going to say in those places. i think that's true of the women, but of course an awful lot of our young men erm come from all boys' schools and quite a lot of our young women from all girls' schools, so this is the first time, when they get to oxford, that they are interacting with each other, on a day-to-day basis i should say, and i think that in itself will they are not sure how to act towards each other and there's going to be confusions. but i think there's a very interesting some of the confusions are going to be sexually harassing. i think the question of girls, you know, the is a possibility that there are more girls here from single sex schools is actually very striking because one might say that what those girls are accustomed to is being educated in an empathetic environment. they are simply not they don't expect the level of sexual tension that they seem to be identifying as a problem in oxford. now one can say well what are we aiming for in terms of the sexual harassment free environment, and i think that what one would be aiming for is if not the atmosphere of a girls' convent school one's certainly aiming at an environment where women can work and study and interact without the sense of being constantly on display as sexual objects, and, you know, to that extent i don't know if it is the case that a large number of the respondents are saying, you know, ‘i have come from an environment when i haven't had to deal with this before, and i don't expect to have to deal with it’ then we should certainly sit up and take notice of that. but i think the other incredibly important thing that you said was about the number of boys here from public schools as well and i think that or all boys' schools. tragically yes, or all boys' schools you know here are young men who have had thousands of pounds spent on their education, and when they arrive in an environment like oxford they somehow seem to be less capable than other young men of behaving with decency towards the students they are being educated with. i don't think it's really a question of public schools, except in so far as so many public schools are all boys. i think it's single sex boys' schools that are the problem. but i think there is i mean something that ought to be mentioned one of the things that worries me is that there isn't here today a man of the type that i meet every day in oxford who says ‘sexual harassment? come on, there is no sexual harassment.’ as the one you quoted at the beginning of the programme. yes. i mean we're talking as if these young women who feel uncomfortable erm are feeling uncomfortable because of something that's objectively in the well, i agree with you. but i wonder some of them are just not used to having boys around. i regret that there isn't a man here who would uphold the opposite point of view and it's not for want of trying. i've rung several of them, and i said ‘well, excuse me sir, but i'd like to talk about sexual harassment in oxford’ and he said ‘that's not my subject’. and they were very reticent about about coming on a programme and airing their views, especially with three women who could erm do more than hold their own. so i suspect that you won't be talking to these kinds of men, or do you get a chance to talk to the men that you perceive are part of the problem. oh, i mean i'm sure we all do. i mean can you bring it out into the open? i'm sure we do. no, but do you talk about the problem with them? oh, well yes, i do, and i'm sure susy in fact i've heard susy doing it and i don't know about joanna. i mean it what sort of response do you get from them when you tackle them? it's terribly difficult trying to get from them any acknowledgements that there could be something wrong about making a complimentary remark to a young woman. i mean the thing that they latch onto all the time is that they think it's perfectly reasonable that they should compliment a young woman and so on, and i do see, bill, that this is a problem because these men have been brought up like this and they think of themselves as being polite and courteous and, you know, a little flirtatious and doing all the things that actually they were taught women like and is rather nice. i'm just not sure what the difficult is . well the difficulty is that for somebody a confident women who who can play the same game and who who feel powerful has a sense of power herself, it probably is fun. it's great fun, very enjoyable, but for a young women who's perhaps come up from a convent or an all girls' school and who feels very uncomfortable with this person because he's thirty years older and has power over here, it's not perceived in the same way. i don't think, though, that we should give the impression joanna innes. i don't think though we should give the impression that most of the behaviour we're calling sexual harassment takes the form of behaviour that is of that type. no, quite, quite. some people might judge acceptable. sometimes what we're talking about is people a drunken undergraduate hanging around in college bars groping. or yelling at women who come into the bar in a way that even the same people sober might well agree isn't a very acceptable form of behaviour. i think the other thing about the response that one gets in the college i think there are really two problems here. one is do you trust the reply that you get from someone. when they say to you ‘oh well, you know, surely you don't mind a little bit of flirtation and so on’ i think very often that's an entirely mendacious reply, that they know perfectly well what you're talking about when you talk about sexual harassment, and in the context of discussions in the scr or over dinner, they simply don't want to have to deal with it and so they will dismiss it by way of saying ‘well, you know, i'm only being chivalrous, or this is the way i was brought up’. but more seriously, i think, underneath that, there is a question of definition and of perspective. now it's one thing to say well, you know, perhaps these are women who take more exception than other women would do, but there comes a point where you have to accept, i think, that there's going to be a shift of perspective, that what women have customarily put up with is no longer what they wish to put up and that i think we ought to be, as it were, acknowledged to have the right or the scope to say we want things to change, and to define or to set out in a process of defining what should be sexual appropriate sexual behaviour in future. and so there is a problem of definition. yes, i'd like to make one point here, we're talking as if erm the only people who can be sexually harassed are women, and of course that's false. i mean i've actually i tried to persuade a colleague of mine that i could quite easily sexually harass a male student of mine, and the reason i could do that, or the way i could do that, is because i have power over him. harassment is a power game as much as anything else. how would you harass a male pupil? well, if i erm said to one of my students something about that was a very good essay you wrote, in fact i'd like to discuss it a little bit more down at the pub and down at the pub i put my hand on his knee perhaps in making a point about how good his essay was. now would he really feel confident to say ‘i'm sorry, i don't like what you're doing. i'm glad you like my essay, but i don't like what you're doing’, or would he think ‘oh dear i've got to put with this or she's going to write a bad report on me’. i mean people put up with sexual harassment because of the power imbalance. that's why it's so tempting to think that it's always women erm because power is in the hands of men on the whole, especially in this university. mhm joanna innes. i should be pointed out of the student questionnaire to the that the questionnaire was directed only to women, so the figures that have been extracted from that relate to women and in that way give a partial picture of the whole. well why was that directed only to women? i think that's quite an oversight. well i think we can identify a good reason for this. i mean i'd whilst i'd again accept the validity of marianne's point that sexual harassment can cut both ways, as it were, i think though there is a sense among women that there is something qualitatively different. firstly that they're more likely to get it, but secondly that that greater likelihood is because women perceive themselves as being constantly dealt with at the on the basis that they are sexual objects. now that is a large part of our culture, which in a sense gets sucked into the educational establishment and sucked into teaching relationships, and because it's such a consistent part of the way in which women are seen, i think they perceive it as a greater problem. in some senses you know when it happens to a male student, he is not he doesn't have confirmed for him the sense that he is only a sexual object and that this is yet more of the way in which he is always perceived. i think for the male student who is subject to sexual harassment, or who gets the sort of inappropriate approaches that marianne is talking about, that is unusual, it's out of step with the way in which he perceives himself, and his sense of what he is and who he is in the world. so i think there is something qualitatively different when the subject, or perhaps more appropriately the object of sexual harassment are women. it's doubly destructive to them. i think again it's a power thing, though, isn't it? women on the whole our culture does leave women feeling a certain sense of powerlessness. yes. and sexual harassment towards a woman does, i think, confirm that in a way, as suzy says, it doesn't for a man. well if you are to have an atmosphere that's free of sexual harassment, then you're talking about an attitudinal change that will reach into many other areas as well, aren't you? i don't know what sort of areas you had in mind . well, you're basically talking about power relationships and that goes into almost every aspect of one's life and one's relationship, and i suppose you're asking men to look at themselves differently too. oh i think that's absolutely undoubted. i mean if it were the case that we got on the way to establishing an appropriate atmosphere in the colleges, one where women felt comfortable and where they felt they could get the most from their educational experience, i think that would have profound impact on people's later lives. i think it would affect their marriages, their inter-personal relationships, their co-habitations, the way that they deal with people at work, their sense of who they are in the world and how far they can go in the world, and i think that's what makes the problem so serious because it has very, very long-reaching effects. a decent solution will have long-reaching effects, but the problem itself has long-reaching effects too. but i'm wondering what indications you have that men are prepared to look at themselves in this light. joanna innes, the senior proctor, you're co-proctor none of us wanted to answer that because none of us think there are any you're co-proctor is a man. yes, he's a very enlightened man, i must say. i would have trusted him to be here at this discussion and say much the same things other people here would be saying. i mean i think i'd like to comment on the way some of the discussion was going earlier, because although it's true that it's largely men who are seen as creating the problem, there are certainly large numbers of men in positions of authority in the university who are very concerned about it, and who have been led to re-examine their own behaviour, and who now comment on how uncomfortable and constrained they themselves feel. that's not something they're complaining about but their level of awareness has shifted in a way which does influence their dealing i want to understand how constrained they feel. could you elaborate? well, they say that remarks that they would feel were friendly remarks directed towards students they stop themselves from saying and examine and think if i say that will i make her feel uncomfortable? well like for instance? well that they any comment on the appearance of a woman they now think erm it's rather difficult to say. that's a nice dress . or erm yes, you're looking very well today. even the mildest things can come to seem potentially to have a charge. well, but what's the standard by which they should judge their comments. is it that would they make the same kind of comment to one of their male students, like ‘that's a nice jumper you've got on’, something like that? well people who've commented on this say that they're now aware that they feel unable to say to women students things they would say to male students. the trouble is it's all become too conscious, hasn't it? mhm sure. i mean the thing is you want to say ‘oh, you're looking well today’ the minute you think somebody's looking well, but if you've got to marianne, you're looking terrific. thanks, bill . you don't look too bad yourself . but, yes, i think that there is a problem with the way men are becoming much too aware of this issue and maybe that's just i think we have to accept there's going to be a period of transition. well some men well you see some men are too aware. would you agree? very, very few, and i think those no, their all in agreement. i think there are perhaps one or two who are very, very aware and are making their own life uncomfortable about it, but i think they're so much in the minority that it's the other lot that we should be worrying about. i think the old point is anyway you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. i think it's bound to be the case well, okay, what that as you move into a new form of behaviour well how are you going to break these eggs? well, i think the first starting point is asking men to be self-aware and if one of the untoward consequences of that self-awareness is self-consciousness, then we'll just have to live with that. in twenty years time maybe they won't feel so self-conscious, but i don't think we should lost sight of the point that what they're getting a tiny, tiny sense of is what women, a large number of women, feel all the time. now i'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, and the fact that women have had to put up with this means than men just have to put up with it in their turn. i think that one's saying that in order to resolve one problem, their may be unforeseen and, one hopes temporary, minor problems which emerge in consequence of attempting to resolve the first problem. but to say ‘well we may run into erm problems which we can't at the moment foresee, or problems which may make life temporarily a little difficult’ i don't think should prevent us from tackling the problem. marianne talbot. i think suzy's right, but i think though it's not just the attitude of men we should be looking at, it's also the attitude of women. i mean i ah, good point. that's wanted to bring up, sure. i mean i would like to see you're painting this as though it's a male problem exclusively. yes. no, oh, well no, we're painting it as a female problem exclusively , but one that's been that's been foisted on women by men. initiated by men. sure, i don't think that's necessarily accurate. right, no, i think there's definitely some work that needs to be done on the attitude of women. i mean i mentioned earlier the fact that it might be that people perceive sexual harassment, where in fact the behaviour has been perfectly appropriate and it's just that the person perceiving it is unused to it, but i think that's the minority of cases, incidentally. erm but i do think that women need to have much more of a sense of their own power, or at least of the fact that they're not as powerless as they think of themselves as being, and so they can say when the tutor puts his hand on their knee or something like that ‘i'm sorry, would you take your hand away, that's not part of our relationship’ or something that just so they don't have to feel so bad about it. suzanne gibson, now when marianne just said that women need to be aware of their own power, there was quite an interesting smile that came over your face there. i'm sorry, i think i've forgotten what i was thinking at the time, erm i was just wondering what sort of future you wanted to see for women in terms of their awareness of their own power? well i think i feel a bit ambivalent on this point because and it's quite possible i was smiling because i'm thinking of parts of the report where a huge number of women say that they just deal with this on their own terms, and of course they do. they get on with it and they get on with life in the colleges and life may not be wonderful but they deal with it, and in some senses they are exercising what power they have, but what they get fed up with is constantly having to exercise it. i mean i think there are two problems here. there is a question of powerlessness, on the other hand there is the question that, you know, even if you've got power do you constantly want to be having to police your own bodily boundaries, as it were, and i don't think it is right to ask women to be doing that. we have to tackle it in two directions, and i think that education is going to be incredibly important in terms of trying to create a more appropriate atmosphere in the colleges, you know, because at the end of the day that's where people spend an enormous amount of their time. mhm joanna innes, the senior proctor. yes, i wanted to emphasise the way some men feel constrain before, not because i want to suggest it's now becoming a problem for men and we should be worrying about them, but because you asked what prospects there were for doing something about it and i think if something's to be done about it, and it's a problem of everyone devising new standards of behaviour, it's very important that quite large numbers of men should be prepared to play a part in trying to work out what these standards should be, and there is quite substantial interest in trying to do that, both at the level of the teaching staff at the university and at the level of the undergraduates. i mean this at the undergraduate level this is not just an issue which the women students are concerned about. mhm mhm i think it's very undesirable that it should be seen as an issue of women versus men, because the chances of getting anywhere are reduced if it's set up in that way. i think, though, what's very important in that as well is that i know that there are young men in the colleges who are really ashamed of the sort of picture that's increasingly being presented. whether that shame is yet moving them to have an impact on the men who they see perpetrating this sort of behaviour in colleges i don't know, but certainly some of the undergraduates i have spoken to feel very embarrassed that this is the portrait of male behaviour that's being perpetrated. part of that picture that's coming out about the behaviour of males in colleges has to do with alcohol. how serious is the alcohol factor? well i think personally i think it's a very serious problem, but it's something that we were talking earlier on and asking ourselves in what way, you know, the college or university authorities can set about policing undergraduate behaviour. i mean if one can use a slightly awkward word like ‘policing’, and i think there is a sense that none of us want to be acting as substitute parents and, you know, policing student behaviour in a way that suggests that they're not yet fully mature. the other side of that is that i think a lot of dons are increasingly concerned at the level of alcohol consumption and the sort of behaviour that can emerge as a result of it,you know i do sense that many of us think it's a real problem. whether we're any way towards finding a solution towards it that's appropriate yes. yes. joanna innes. and in fact the university's health and safety committee has recently taken this up and is trying to run both some sort of investigation and, i think, and educational programme. there's been discussion about whether the problem of alcohol, and most people agree there is a problem, should be tackled primarily educationally or through disciplinary means. mhm mhm mhm and i think that the argument has been that on the whole discipline the use of discipline simply to punish drinking isn't going to be appropriate, although there may be forms of behaviour produced by excessive drinking that it's appropriate to act against. well one of the things marianne talbot. with alcohol i mean alcohol is so much a part of the establishment of oxford. i mean i was shocked the first time when i went to it may be hypocritical of us to police the students . quite. the first freshers' dinner i went to in oxford — this is where the the people who've just come up erm are introduced to college life and so on— erm the amount that's allocated to each student is two sherries before dinner, three or four glasses of wine, different wines, with dinner and then something or other — port — after dinner. i mean you're looking there at eight or nine units of alcohol in one evening, and that's the establishment. we give them that. it's hardly surprising that they then think it's a perfectly normal thing to consume eight or nine, ten units of alcohol a night in the pub at the bar. i think it's true to say that we give it to them and we also drink it ourselves. well, yes. i mean i think that does you know in honesty one has to recognize that alcohol is a very major part of oxford life in some ways, you know for many of us. i think the difficulty is, though i mean i remember getting blind drunk as a student, and i loved it. i mean when you're dealing with alcohol it's not something that we can all agree has no benefits either. but when you loved it, didn't you i mean i know i did when i was a young person first drinking erm i definitely had the feeling that if i was drinking to excess i wasn't doing the right thing, whereas the impression we give in oxford that drinking to the excess is perfectly acceptable behaviour. mhm mhm suzanne gibson, you mentioned earlier that you didn't like to use the word ‘policing’. mhm well that article you referred to at the very beginning of the programme in the observer, the final part of that article went something like this erm ‘this article is not intended to accuse individuals or colleges. most colleges it seems contained people made unhappy by sexual harassment, who find little or no support from the people charged to provide that support. it also seems that the university of oxford should break the tradition of centuries and take responsibility for what its members do to one another’, and i think that's called ‘policing’. well, no, i don't agree with you. i mean i think that what that article is directing, you know, it's main thrust towards is the importance of providing support and the importance, i think, of providing an avenue whereby people can deal with those sorts of problems. now i think it also is important that we recognize that as a university and as colleges we have a responsibility for the sort of environment, the education environment, that we provide our students, but i think we also have to remember that these students are eighteen years old when they come up, they are twenty one when they graduate, and many of the students are older than that, they are graduate students and they are young adults. they are people who are old enough to vote. they are people who are old enough to go to war, and i think that there is a difficulty, you know, a major amoral difficulty or ethical difficulty in attempting to continue to treat young people as if they were still living at home and were not young adults but were really children. i think it's a very, very difficult line to tread and i think it's one that the university is clearing thinking about. i'm not saying that we should ignore what advice would you give the university? i mean where do you think that line should be drawn? well for my own part i think that one can educate students as far as possible in terms of what appropriate behaviour is, and i think that you can police students with disciplinary measures when it's absolutely clear that when they know what the inappropriate behaviour is they nevertheless make a choice that they're going to move beyond those boundaries of appropriateness. but i think that to allow those two sort of issues to get too inseparable, as it were, to so that we simply regard ourselves as being in a position to issue directives about behaviour, which don't acknowledge that these are young people who have to learn to be autonomous, then we get ourselves onto a hiding for nothing. i mean personally i think one of the difficulties in the colleges is that they do still have a sense of being at schools, and when you have an atmosphere which is like school you're tacitly given people permission to act as if they were at school, and so we have a and that activity may not always be very adult, so we have to find a way of changing the environment of the colleges. i go back to thinking that the best way of changing the environment of the colleges would be to try and erm i mean talking again as if it's boys perpetrating it all the time erm boys will stop doing it if women respond differently. i mean at the moment there's an awful lot of pressure on women, i mean social pressure, to respond to flirtations and sexual overtures in a way that doesn't hurt the feelings of the young men, and women of that age but is that pressure that women are putting on themselves? are not i think it's pressure that society's putting on the women, i think it's pressure that women are putting on themselves, and also that other women put on women and that men put on women. so, for example if somebody does reject a young man in a way that erm isn't appropriate in his eyes, he might then go around and start calling her all sorts of names and generally making other men think of her in bad way, and of course no eighteen year old woman wants young men to think badly of her, and so she puts pressure on herself not to reject advances too openly or too obviously or something like that, and the whole cycle starts again, and so and i think this is the sort of thing the college just cannot have anything to do with, because that really is going too far, that's interfering with the the one thing we could do, perhaps, is talk to the young women and make it clear that they do have the right to reject advances and that what they've got to be concerned about whilst they're at university is they're academic career and making sure that that isn't affected by harassment. but earlier you were saying that women who come to oxford are tough cookies. no, i wasn't saying that, suzy was . some of the women who come here are tough cookies. mhm erm but i think that actually there are very few eighteen, nineteen, twenty year old women who are that tough. mhm i mean we all care about how other people think of us. i mean even at our age we do. joanna innes. yes, i wanted to make a point on the disciplinary side, which is as senior proctor the side of things i find myself thinking most about, and this is going back to the question of policing and whether it's appropriate to talk in those terms. i'm quite keen to make a distinction between what you might call victimless crimes and crimes with victims, and that it is, it seems to me, we want to move away from an older pattern in which the university had its ideas of how people should behave and tried to make them conform to those ideas, towards a much more complaint activated system of response, so that it's the kind of behaviour find objectionable that the authorities may get drawn into looking at. now the problem with that model of proceeding is that you then end up with you can end up with the exploitation of complain procedures for a wide variety of , not all of which you want to countenance, and some of the universities' and colleges' experience of trying to run complaint procedures in connection with sexual harassment has been deciding when to try to cool someone down and when a complaint is someone that should be run along with. mhm right. but i think that's the right beginning to allow these procedures to be complaint activated. mhm there's actually a very different difficult problem with sexual harassment, which is that erm there are occasions when it looks as if it's going to be difficult for a college not to go ahead, even when the victim has withdrawn her or his complaint. for example, i mean, if a tutor, say, has been sexually harassing a young woman, and she puts in a complain of any kind or something like that, and then he puts pressure on her to withdraw that complaint and she does, i mean does the college at that stage stay well okay if she's not going to complain then we won't do anything, thereby letting the harassment go ahead, or does the college say even though she doesn't want to complain we're nevertheless going to go ahead. joanna innes. yes. i'd distinguish between cases which clearly involve relationships of authority, institutional relationships of authority, from those which involve people whose relationships are social or informal. i think in the case of members of staff, the university might well want to say certain sorts of behaviour are inappropriate and we don't countenance them even if the person involved in the end thinks she's prepared to put up with it, or he's prepared to put up with it. mhm it's in the case of how we police students that the question about where we draw the line and how far we become engaged are most problematic, i think, and it's in that case really that i'm proposing this distinction. mhm i think the interesting suzanne gibson. distinction between attempting to respond on the basis of behaviour, or a response based on whether or not there's a victim, can carry you a certain way, but i was just thinking of some of the discussions we've had in college recently about the sort of behaviour with which we feel uncomfortable, and i have to say that sometimes it would be difficult to identify a given victim or, you know, a group of given victims. it's behaviour which is, you know, particularly with alcohol related behaviour which is basically a nuisance well for instance, what are you talking about here? to everybody concerned. well, undergraduates getting very, very drunk and, you know, throwing up and leaving pools of vomit around for staff to clear up the next day erm, you know, one might say well are the college staff the victim of that. i don't know, it's difficult to see that one can make erm, you know, a clear connection if one says well, you know, if the undergraduate isn't sick should we sort of put up with them being particularly rowdy or generally rather offensive, and i think that there could perceivably be problems with attempting to identify, you know, a disciplinary effect offence rather, as lying within the victims. but suzanne, you say that we were talking about this in our college. well, you're at new college, now who's the ‘we’, was that a group of women, or were there men who were well i don't think it's just new college which erm you know considers there are problems with student drunkenness, i mean these are conversations no. which one would have, i think probably with any don in oxford at the moment. i haven't spoken to anybody who wouldn't say that there is a problem with drunkenness and i mean this is very, very common behaviour and it's alcohol related behaviour. but you can do things. you have bars in college, now what's the control on bars and the closing hours on bars? i mean are you restricted to the same closing hours that other bars are outside college premises? except under special licence, yes. mhm yes. i think there are again arguments about what's the most effective way to act here because it's been proposed some people have thrown into discussion the idea that college bars might have more restrictive policies, but then it's said actually the most problematic forms of drunkenness are those which involve heavy drinking in private. mhm and it's in fact drinking in a social context in a bar is in itself a form of itself imposes control. some constraints, that's right. i think in essence i mean many of our students are doing nothing different to what students at other universities do when they go and have a private party in their lodgings. but i think one of the big differences with oxford is that a very, very high proportion of students are living in college and so they're behaviour is visible to college. now, you know, behaviour that's visible to college is behaviour which the college starts to think about wanting to regulate in some way. well clearly and i think that's where the problems emerge, that they're not doing anything, i think, quite often different to the sort of behaviour one might find elsewhere, but there's a question of how, as an institution, you regulate the behaviour that's acceptable within your own walls. well, we've clearly seen that this is out in the open now and people are going to have to deal with it. how do you think in the next year or two oxford university will develop it's ways of dealing with this? let's start with the senior proctor, joanna innes. how much longer do you have in office? erm i only have another month in office. oh, do you? well, lucky you. yes. i'm at the moment chairing a university working party on sexual harassment erm and what this working party erm intends to do is to try to survey experience gathered from the operation of codes and the appointment of people in college with a special responsibility for this sort of thing over the past few years, to see what we can learn from experience, so i'd want to reserve judgement at the moment on what this committee might recommend is the best way forwards. we need to gather more information about how things have turned out other than people expected when they created these procedures and codes in the first place. mhm marianne talbot. i really feel rather pessimistic i'm afraid. i don't think that things are going to change very much. i think that it's a very long term thing and until the attitudes of both men and women and boys and girls at schools who come up here change, and that's going to be a long time mhm suzanne gibson. well i think much as i welcome the university proceeding down the road that it is, erm i have a very, very strong feeling that change is going to come from the bottom up, and i think that it'll come from the bottom up in those colleges, like new college, who have got an increasingly large number of women fellows who feel that, you know, there's safety in numbers and we can start to do something about it. oh, you consider the women fellows of new college to be the bottom? i think perhaps i'd put that another way, but i do think there's a definite sense in which change is going to come up through the colleges. well, many thanks to my three guests discussing sexual harassment in oxford. to suzanne gibson, law tutor at new college, to marianne talbot a philosophy don at pembroke and to joanna innes the senior proctor. that's it from me, bill heine. thanks for joining us. goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. worked with people in the hungerford massacres, and elizabeth howell is on the line from london from a london group called exploring parenthood, which organizes workshops to help parents in schools cope with children's feelings about the war. elizabeth howell, welcome to the programme. hello, yes. in the past when wars broke out i don't think there was such a articulated need to deal with children's insecurities and vulnerabilities and problems about the war. why is that need to prevalent now? well, we seem to be a society that is very much orientated to crisis management rather than prevention, and perhaps we're very good at recognizing our human needs and our children's needs in terms of their nourishment, their physical and intellectual development, but perhaps not quite so well acquainted with their emotional needs to feel safe and secure with the adults around them being in control and able to handle their lives and the world's situation in a mature and secure way. well, but what happened during the second world war when all these children were undergoing much more traumatic experiences then? were were would you suggest that they have a lot of unresolved feelings about that, or maybe they had emotional scars because no-one was there to give them the kind of hope that might be available now? well there's no question but which therapists and people of medical profession have come across cases of people who have indeed been scarred for their whole lives and and found it very difficult to to maintain trust and relationships and and be able to achieve their potential as a result of the sorts of situations that they endured, and perhaps we're more understanding about those sorts of areas of the human need to to be able to express anxiety and to feel that to to express fears is is not something that's going to overwhelm people that are around us, so that adults who are in the care of children, be they teachers, or parents, or child care workers, can allow children to express their feelings so that they don't need to hold on to them and thereby increase the fears that they have. but some well let's go right now to elizabeth capewell here in the studio, she's the director of the centre for educational responses to disaster. how do you do you agree with what elizabeth howell has just said? yes, i do agree, bill, and i think another reason why we're more aware of it now is because we've had unfortunately so many disasters in the last oh five/six years and we're increasingly coming to realize that children do also suffer quite severely from post-trauma stress. we are only just beginning to realize from research just how much this is so. well can you tell us about some of the effects that these traumas have on children. how do they suffer? i think the research that has been done on the children affected by the zebrugge ferry disaster and the jupiter cruise ship sinkings has shown, for instance, that children in secondary schools are actually being affected in their exam performance. that's something that people can understand erm they also have had difficulties sleeping erm having flash backs, this kind of thing. erm but unfortunately so often adults don't realize how they're affected. they're afraid of their fears and they feel that by talking about it the children will actually have more problems, so children, being very aware of the adults' fears, will not talk. they're very protective. sometimes the grown-ups say ‘well, look, this is just not the type of thing i want my child even to know about. i don't want a discussion about this because it's going to engender more problems than it will solve.’ how do you respond to that one? elizabeth howell. well it's impossible at the moment, with the media coverage and the erm information about war and the situation in the gulf, not to touch children, however careful the adults around them may be, and it's very important for us as adults to not be so caught up, in our excitement perhaps even, about what's going on and all the razzmatazz that may be attached to the sort of glory of whose ever side they may be on that we forget the extent to which children are very much affected by how they see the adults around them respond to what's going on. well, what can be done, then for children. well, children can be allowed to express their anxieties verbally and to learn perhaps from the adults' modelling around them that to talk about these things in moderation is perfectly acceptable erm but not to do it to the extent or to allow children to perhaps watch the news coverage to the extent that they become over excited and are not able to contain their own feelings of anxiety about loss and damage and death and separation from parents and significant adults. but they are unable to process this and obviously that will be different for children at different stages of their development erm younger children being particularly susceptible to the sort of atmosphere around them, and if they are picking up from the adults around them, be that through the media or within the context of their everyday lives, that there is something dangerous and disturbing going on, then they are obviously going to reflect that unease in their behaviour. yes, i'm i'm elizabeth capewell. yes, i think as adults one thing we have to do is actually trust the wisdom of our children to let us know, to give us the cues to when they need to talk or express their fears in some way erm i mean that's our duty not to stop them talking, not to stop them asking questions, but to be aware of when they may have fears. sometimes they don't know how to even they may not have the language for communicating feelings. we can help them with that, but, you know, i think if we do repress their need to talk, or their need to ask quite factual questions, sometimes, then in the end the damage will be much greater. you can see erm one example of this, a striking example, a survivor of aberfan, she didn't get much help afterwards. she wasn't directly involved. she saw what was going on from a school bus. she had her nervous breakdown two years ago. she'd survived 'til then, then things happened. she had her nervous breakdown and relived the whole experience, so to her aberfan lasted actually happened two years ago. so this is what happens if you do hold things down to that extent. luckily she's been able to come through it. she's had help now, but what a pity, you know, then i guess people weren't so aware of what could be done, but what a pity she couldn't have had help at the time. yes, i think it's just to follow on from that erm about trusting children to to give us the sort of clues that we need to be able to respond to, very often they do that in ways that are not directly associated perhaps with the anxiety that's around, so that they may be expressing their anxiety by just generally difficult behaviour or by wetting the bed at night, or maybe being quite disruptive in their play, or provoking other children, and adults who are able to see that sort of behaviour as useful for information for us, so that we can respond appropriately, not out of anger and a erm judgemental sort of response, but in a way that we can support their anxiety by by not getting over excited and + and erm responding in a very aggressive way to the very aggression that they're expressing as a result of their anxiety. then i would expect that most of your work would be done with the parents of children, rather than children themselves. yes, elizabeth howell of exploring parenthood, certainly that is the case, both with parents and with people like teachers or child care workers, who are in locus parentis for many hours of the day, and our sense is very much that if the adults around children can feel supported and confident that they can acknowledge their own fears and anxieties that they will then be better be able to transmit that measured response to the children in their care and it was very interesting last week, i heard from an educational psychologist in the north of england who said that a group of teachers had asked from several schools to come together to think about the resources that they needed to set in place in order to deal with the children's behaviour, and after the meeting, at which they were able to express their anxieties, they then returned to their various areas and when the psychologist contacted them a couple of days later they said we felt sufficiently supported by knowing that others are struggling with the same issues and that we could acknowledge our concerns about it, that we now feel able to get on with the job of helping the children, and i think that was a very good example of adults finding a way to acknowledge their own anxieties and thereby to increase their effectiveness in dealing with the children that in whose care they have. yes, but those are a particular kind of grown ups and what about the stiff upper lippers? well, even even people who perhaps are not so experienced in doing it in their personal lives can be influenced i think, especially when they are relating to children, to perhaps become more sensitive to that and the children in their care. yes, elizabeth capewell. yes, i think talking about the stiff upper lippers i think we have to work with people where they are an if that's where they are at the moment, that's fine. the danger is when they're the ones that if they're the ones that stop other people sorting out their own feelings and emotions erm and i think in the work that i've done in schools and in other situations following disasters one of the biggest problems has been that those expressing denial or saying that we should be able to cope with this, children are resilient, they don't have these problems, erm they've often stopped people getting the help that they need; often stopped other teachers getting the help that they need. well how to they stop people getting help? by expressing erm the idea that you should be able to cope, therefore if you can't cope there's something wrong with you. mhm yes, and pouring scorn on the weak people yes. who say they need help. that's right, and i think it's fine but isn't that a general ethos of the way people live in this country quite often? yes, i think it is. i think it's changing. i think, you know, in the last few years i've really i think it is changing. people are talking about emotions more. just looking at the kind of programmes you're getting on television now, erm sunday evening there's programme about emotions, ‘okay two’ isn't it called? so it i think it is changing. i think we still have a very long way to go erm but i i find that well we're dealing here with so many complex things. we're dealing with fear, we're dealing with a sense of vulnerability and impotence and how do you teach grown ups to deal with those issues, because a lot of them erm the for a lot of them these kinds of questions go to the very centre of who they are, their self image. yes. because they consider themselves to be strong, in power, in positions of power and coping well, and then all of a sudden to have something like this war going and carpet bombing going on and the use of chemical weapons and germ warfare. mhm erm i mean it really must make them feel like the world's gone haywire. that's right, and i think what has been shown if you look at the behaviour of organisations sometimes after a disaster erm those that think in that way actually create even more procedures. they try and tighten it up even more, almost in a subconscious way to control a disaster, and we know that things like chaos and disaster they can't be controlled, they can't be wrapped up in that way. however, there are things that you can do to help yourself, to help others around you, to actually get some sense of mastery over these, you know, what can be very overwhelming fears. we can't get rid of the horror and the fears, but we can do something to increase our competence in dealing with it and facing it, which i think is a healthier way than freezing, flying away from it, or fighting it. what techniques would you suggest? well i think some interesting work has been done in israel erm, a woman called dr. ophraelin erm and she runs a stress prevention centre where she's working right out in the community, which is something, you know, i particularly am interested in, erm empowering people, empowering parents, helping them to recognize their skills, erm just giving them a sense of their own self worth. the methods that she uses erm, and i think this needs to be done well before a disaster, unfortunately so often people only react at times like this and i think it's such a pity that they don't do it beforehand, but it's working on basic assertiveness skills, communications skills like giving a language for feelings, erm building up support for each other, plus the creative work — getting things down well let me pick you up on assertiveness skills. mhm now how would you encourage people to refine their assertiveness skills? well obviously the, you know, the easiest way if you like is if they do come on courses, erm not everybody, of course, will go on courses. they may not see the value until they've been on them. luckily there are more of these around now erm but to me the community approach is having people that are aware enough, teachers for instance erm others that are erm happy with these sort of ways, just helping people anybody they meet, just boosting up their confidence, encouraging them to speak, erm giving, you know, praise to each other for a start, rather than putting each other down. i think it can be done in a very gentle way erm to empower people in every day life. mhm elizabeth howell, is that along the lines that you deal with grown ups down there at exploring parenthood? well, certainly we believe that there can be all sorts of erm techniques that can be very useful, like communications skills and assertiveness, but our understanding is also that it is not only about the skills that people have it's also about the understanding behind those skills. mhm yes. so that erm if we're talking to parents, for example, about being assertive, we know that very often the feelings behind their inability to be assertive need to be addressed first of all and then the skills that they may want to acquire will fit in with erm a different quality erm of where it's emanating from in them as a person. well let's talk about where it's emanating from. now a lot of times when people aren't assertive that's because of what — they have certain attitudinal approaches that are ineffective in certain circumstances, or what? they're sense of self is such that they don't see that they have a self to assert, perhaps, or that they are not valid enough as a person, which obviously must stem erm from their early childhood experiences, and from the adults that surrounded them when they were growing and developing that sense of who they are. but what do you mean by ‘their sense of who they are is not valid enough’? what do you mean by that? well if we're continually in contact with people as growing children who don't allow us to express our feelings, or who behave in a way that would seem to deny that those feelings of hate and rage and love in their extremes exist at all, then obviously one doesn't develop a sense of trust in what one perceives from oneself, and that erm on erm an accumulative basis is going to result in a person who doesn't feel terribly confident about the feelings and their awareness that they have. that could be erm manifested in an inability to be assertive in an adult in adult life. mhm mhm so, all right, so you you first of all find out what baggage people are carrying around with them? yes, indeed, and and at least erm encourage them to explore that in some way. it may be through attending a workshop in some context or other. it can be through reading. it can be in all sorts of ways. it may also be through therapy that they're able to explore that erm. what kind of therapy? well there could be a whole range of different therapies that would be appropriate, depending on on the individual needs of the persons involved, erm but certainly in in a therapeutic situation erm one is able to establish a relationship with another caring adult that can readdress those erm perhaps foundations in the personality that were not able to develop appropriately in their early childhood. so in other words, you're really talking about taking the lid off a can of worms here. i mean maybe there's an issue about how to cope with war, but that probably is related to fundamental aspects of what a person's all about in their psychological make up. well certainly at times of stress erm all sorts of things are revealed and that's one of the reasons why the current situation and the anxiety and level of stress around has resulted in people feeling a whole range of things that perhaps has actually surprised them erm and therefore it's not surprising that children are equally filled with all sorts of the mixed emotions about what's going on. mhm sorry, did you no, that's all right. elizabeth capewell. yes, i think i agree with everything that elizabeth said, and i think this is why erm one of the things i very much feel is that it has to start with the schools, as well as at home, of course, when children are young. erm and i would like to think that in spite of all the pressures that you have in schools now with national curriculum and everything else, there will still be space for children to be able to express emotions. at the moment they, of course, may be expressing quite strong emotions. it would be nice to think that this is allowed, that children are allowed to play out their fears and their feelings erm but i do believe it's when they're young that we need to start building up this self esteem and, you know, giving them permission if you like to talk quite comfortably about emotions. well it seems like that's hoping for pie in the sky, though, because there's first of all not enough money, and i don't think that teachers are that good at well talking about their own emotions, and i asked the oxfordshire county council education department to send someone along to this programme, and they said ‘i'm sorry, there's no-one to send’. mhm now they may have their own reasons for that and it may be difficult for them to send someone at this precise moment, but i don't think that they're necessarily geared up to dealing with the sorts of things that you want them to deal with. elizabeth howell, how serious is this that erm it doesn't seem to be such a high priority on the curriculum? well i i do think that varies and i think there is some excellent practice in many schools with teachers who are both very good at doing this sort of thing and put great value by it erm perhaps in their individual style, rather than as part of the curriculum erm but certainly there does seem to be a lack of awareness, and certainly where it comes to providing the funding for that, to bring into the school curriculum the sort of understanding about human development and erm aspects of emotional life which affect all of us throughout our life experience and affect our ability to perhaps erm enter into erm adult life with the sort of confidence and erm capacity for developing our potential that we would like all of our coming generation to be able to have. erm its but i think to say that it isn't happening in schools is a bit unfair, because i do think it does happen in many schools erm and but there's a great deal of work to be done. yes, well erm i'm joined now by frankie rickford. welcome to the programme frankie. ffr hi. you wrote and article for the guardian recently called ‘not in front of the children’, and i'd just like to share with people the last two paragraphs. you say all the parents i spoke to said they had tried not communicate their own fears to their children, but some felt unable to reassure them convincingly. a mother of three said she had tried to comfort her very frightened eight year old son, and this is a quote, ‘he turned round and said ‘but how can everything be all right, mum, people are going to start letting off bombs at each other , aren't they?’ what can i say, he's seen the news, he reads the paper, how much reality do you show them and how much do you protect them. you want to make their lives secure and warm and loving. to be honest, i can't bear to think about what might happen myself.’ you seem to have quite a large sense of pessimism about how to deal with this problem, frankie. well, i mean i suppose erm i feel as a parent myself that it's not possible to make tolerable for children a situation which is in fact humanly intolerable. erm i find i'm not sure that any of us can erm cope with what's going on at the moment in the gulf without having just ways of distracting ourselves, erm and i think that perhaps might be more of a problem for adults than it is for children, in the sense that erm most of us have access to more information than most children do erm and more information about what death means, and what suffering means, and what pain means, than erm most children who have been brought up in this country. but you talk about drawing that line between sharing things with them and protecting them. well where would you protect children? well i mean one of the women i spoke to that i mentioned in that piece felt strongly that schools were laying too much on children in terms of taking responsibility for how the world is, and she erm mentioned in particular erm the kind of ecological issues that lots of schools and teachers are taking up now and erm children are becoming involved in projects for, you know, recycle this that and the other and there's a book, isn't there, ‘the children's green guide’ or something. she felt that it wasn't children's job or children's responsibility to look after the world, it was our job, and that it was not fair to make children feel responsible for doing that erm i mean that seems to me to be a legitimate viewpoint and erm but it's one of many and i mean other people may feel that in order to save the planet, or indeed prevent wars in the future, it is important to expose children to the dangers of, you know, the current situation. well, elizabeth howell. mhm yes. there is a difference, i think, between making children feel responsible for righting the wrongs of the world that we as adults have created, but at the same time to be able to enable them to think constructively as to what they can do. i mean it is true that this is adults' business, as it were, and that children are not in a position that they can take the sort of action that is going — certainly in the gulf situation — to effect a change. i think that might be slightly different in terms of the environment, but nonetheless i think there is a way of encouraging children to think about and to be thoughtful about the sorts of choices that we make in life and the effects of our behaviour, without overwhelming them with the sense that it in fact is their responsibility. but in a sense it is part of their responsibility. it will be in the future, indeed. well it is now in a way, i would suggest. i mean starting from the way children go to school in the morning — they expect their parents to take them quite often, and to contribute to pollution. well maybe it would be good if these children took on board that they can do something right now. they aren't powerless. well i think that is true, perhaps, as i have said, in terms of the ecological situation, but i think to translate that level of expectation to the situation vis-a-vis the gulf is another matter altogether. i mean it's the difference between taking effective action where one can and being able to decide where one can take or where one can encourage children to take effective action. well how about this? i think the children can do things like for instance this letter, i'll read it to you. it says ‘dear president bush, how are you? we are seven, but we think that the war is not necessary. we think that the money for the war should be used for homes for the homeless. please, we're scared. you may not listen, but give it a thought.’ from gina and hunter, manhattan country school. yes, i mean that sort of action, of course they can take, and i think you're referring to the letter that was in the article that suzy orbath wrote erm a couple of weeks ago in the guardian. indeed, and to allow them to take that sort of action that they feel allows them, or enables them to express what they're feelings are , but to assume that they can take the sort of action that we as adults have not been able to take, i.e. to find different ways and more mature ways of resolving conflicts is putting expectations on children that we as adults haven't been able to achieve ourselves. mhm elizabeth capewell. yes. i mean a thought strikes me erm, you know, maybe this is very much to do with the war. erm there is criticism that erm we only went into this war because of oil interests. we all, most of us, drive cars, you know, in that sense is there some sense of guilt around that in some way we are contributing to the war. that's just a though. the other thing that i'd like to go back to. this idea that protect children, not tell them about what's happening, i mean if anybody can protect them to that extent when even neighbours is put at a different time on the television, you know, erm that somehow we make them warm and secure by not telling them, to me that is making them dependent and unable maybe to cope later on in their lives. i feel that it's about creating the warmth and security at home, in school, wherever they are, from outside to help build up their sense of warmth and security from within, and to enable them to learn how to deal with some of these issues so that they can cope with the difficulties of life when they grow up. we can start now. it's now overloading them. obviously we don't want to expose them to more than they can take. this is where we need to listen to what they're asking and what they need, and give them enough to satisfy them. sometimes as adults if a child for instance asks the question ‘what is death’ it is very easy to go into quite a long diatribe about life and death and get really profound, whereas in fact all a child may be wanting to know is how do you know if somebody's dead, how can you tell the difference between somebody being dead and somebody being asleep? often we put more onto it than they're actually wanting to know. yes. one of the problems i have with what you've all been saying so far is that you've talked about encouraging a sense of warmth and security, well maybe we ought to confront the fact that the world is not a warm and secure place and deal with those kinds of issues, and say and put it squarely before children. yes. and say ‘look, part of growing up means that you're going to have to deal with nastiness’ yes. ‘and with very awkward choices’ yes. ‘and what do you do’. what do you think about that? elizabeth howell. i think i think this war in particular is an example of how complex situations are and it's an opportunity in a way for us to show to our children that there are different views involved here and different positions will be reflected, perhaps, amongst the children and the community in which they live, that we don't all in this country hold perhaps the same view, and even those that have one particular stance have very mixed feelings about it. that war may be bad, but this is a just war, or whatever. i think it's a very complex situation and we as adults need to to show our children that we can we can hold onto some sort of measured response within the complexities of what they and we are coming across. mhm frankie rickford, how do you respond to that? erm well i mean i think there's a problem for adults as well as children in that we i don't think it's helpful to cover ourselves in guilt about erm what happens to the suffering that other people experience, arguably erm in order to maintain us in the living standards, you know, we've learned to expect, but at the same time i think that the situation in the world is only tolerable to us psychologically because on some level we convince ourselves that erm those people who are starving and those children who are in a hysterically trying to keep themselves out of the way of shrapnel and hiding night after night in freezing cold shelters in baghdad are not really people and not really children in the same way that we're people and our children are children, and don't feel things in the same way. i mean i think there's the same problem with children in a sense, i mean, you you talking about confronting them with the realities of the world and i suppose i perhaps if we if we did expose ourselves to the erm to the true meaning of what's going on in the world, we couldn't handle it psychologically without stopping it, without doing something about it. i mean i think it's bot of a parallel with the business of kind of giving money to charity to to help people who haven't got enough to eat. i mean, you know, if you see an advert in the paper that tells you that every fifty pence you spend is going to save a child's life by providing it with diralite or providing it with food that it needs for a money, or something like that, i mean how can you justify keeping any fifty pences at all yourself? i mean there's no doubt that in human terms that child needs that fifty pence more than you do, but we don't because i mean there's a level in which we can't because we have to somehow psychologically protect ourselves, and i believe we do do that by convincing ourselves that somehow people out there are not people in the same way that we are. well, all right, frankie, i'd just like to get tony's view on this. tony, you're joining us from freeland, and your views. well you were just talking about children erm my feeling is that we're all children, there is no division between being a child and an adult and i think that they can accept a whole lot, but there's a whole lot of adults that can't accept the shocks that are happening today and they put them into their subconscious and unfortunately it comes out in so many other ways — it comes over as a neurosis or as a mental disorder at some later date. yes, so you believe that there's basically not much difference between a child and a adult? well we're all children. it's a recent manifestation that we are children, or there are such things as children. a little while ago children were expected to be down in the mines and underneath textile machinery, so they weren't actually treated as children, they were erm wager earners at a very low age, as soon as they could be walking they were doing a job, so i feel that we're all children in fact, there is no great division between being a child and being an adult, and we in fact can't always cope with what's happening and the shocks infect . i think a lot of the shocks that we can't cope with just to into the sub-conscious and at some later date we then become neurotic or erm mentally disordered. all right. well john is on the line, joining us from witney. hello, john. oh, good afternoon, bill. your views. well i've brought the subject up before, but i think you've got an ideal two academics there that might be able to answer a question, a very practical one. well i'm not sure if i have two academics. i have three very articulate women. let's leave it at that. leave it at that, yes. erm yes. in witney we've got a big industrial estate and on the top of a forty foot pole there is a siren that was put up four years ago. we've sent letters to everybody, the home office, everywhere, and to say why have they put it up in the middle of an estate. we have to answer questions to our children as to why we've got a siren that's visible for everybody around, right level with the bedrooms, in the middle of an estate. i wonder if your people there could give a better answer than what we could. well, all right. thanks very much indeed, john, for your views there. erm but do you think that we should treat children any differently from other people? no, because you can't hide anything from children. in fact i was a teacher and in fact i think you learn off children to be quite honest. mhm all right. elizabeth capewell here in the studio. yes, i think we have to take any situation like this, not just the major ones like war, but any situation that we come across and use it as a real opportunity for learning, and maybe for adults to be able to do the things that they didn't do when they were children, which is why now we often respond as child in these situations. by opportunities for learning that can be at depth, about learning about ourselves, but also the practical things like what do you say to a child whose father's come back mutilated from war erm how do you write a letter to a bereaved person, and i think children i mean they are capable of doing this, i've seen it with my own children, with some help they're able to express quite deep emotions, you know, to somebody who's had a bereavement, and if they can learn that now, you know,it's going to be a lot easier later on. but quite often grown-ups don't know how to deal with someone who's lost a partner right, because lost a relative, so they shy away from they, they just don't go up and do anything. that's right. and so children are learning that behaviour from their parents. they learn,as elizabeth said earlier, you know, we're models and children learn more by what we do more than what we preach, so you know we do have to repair what we didn't learn maybe earlier on. we have to repair the damage in a way erm but it doesn't mean to say we don't not do it with our children now. we can do it in very simple ways, as well as the deeper approaches like therapy. fortunately most people don't go to therapy. well, you've written in a article, you say by merely acknowledging our feelings we are less likely to pass them on by osmosis to those who are emotionally bound to us. yes. and i i think that's probably central here. yes, i mean that's my believe. yes, and erm sorry, carry on. i would just like to come in there. elizabeth howell. yes, with a couple of points. certainly to respond to the gentleman who was suggesting that there's no difference between us as adults and children, certainly there is the child in all adults erm that does respond, perhaps, in a childish way at times, but i would suggest that as adults we hopefully have gotten to a place in ourselves which we are not so much at the mercy of our immediate wishes and wants and feelings that we are able to be more measured in the way that we handle ourselves and our feelings, and therefore in a position to help our children to develop that capacity within themselves as they are growing up erm and erm i've forgotten the other point i was going to make just following on from what elizabeth there in the studio was saying. let's go back to elizabeth here, elizabeth capewell. yes, i've just remembered the point i was going to make erm i've certainly felt from frankie rickford's article that there was this myth, adults have to get it right, that we have to know the answers. we are actually dealing with problems, difficulties, often to which there are no answers, we don't know yet what the answers are, we don't know yet what happens after death, we have different beliefs. we can, however, get down with the children and start a process of learning, discovery, which can last a lifetime if you like, finding out what different people believe, finding out how other people cope, maybe by just talking to grandparents who've experienced the war, asking them how they've coped. maybe, you know, finding out what people in israel, for instance are going through. i had a phone call to israel the other night and somebody who is very experienced in stress prevention, but still she was afraid and just finding out how isolated those kind of, you know, how isolated they're feeling out there, the fear of the chemical warfare, and maybe now i'm able to write to her to reduce some of that isolation. maybe, you know, we can get in touch with other people out there in some way. it helps our children to know that they're doing something for those children. it will help the children out there and the adults. divert children, in a sense, but give them a feeling of power at the same time. yes, i don't think it's just diverting , again it's great learning in finding out about what those children are experiencing, learning how to express it well i suppose i meant divert them from from only a selfish view of fear. oh, well yes, finding out what other people are feeling as well, because that that makes it less erm worrying for them. i think they're often afraid that they're the only ones feeling that way. yes. they learn they'll be learning that other people react in different ways. they can also learn that there are lots of ways that people have of coping with these things, and thereby increasing their, you know, coping strategies — technical term — but their ways of handling things. yes, i'm wondering, though, what practical advice people can take away from this programme. elizabeth howell, what practice advice would you like to leave with people? erm i i think that being able to acknowledge for themselves — the adults — for them to be able to acknowledge to themselves that this is a very stressful time, that erm that children may be needing that extra bit of sensitivity erm in terms of how we respond to their behaviour, which may be very erm connected with the general level excitement and and stress that i think we as adults are feeling, and certainly that are being picked up from the media. mhm, but what techniques would you leave with people? erm i think in terms of techniques is is is a level of awareness really, to be able to respond to children erm with their curiosity and with their erm expressions of anxiety erm in a way that makes it all right for them to be feeling the way they are, and i don't think it's simple as just saying a technique, i think it's what we can offer as adults comes from an inner awareness that we have as adults, that we can convey to our children, because it's not just the techniques, or the behaviour, or the words that we use, but it's those feelings behind the words. mhm all right, and frankie rickford, what would you like people to be able to to be empowered to do as a result of listening to three women talk about this issue? i don't know if i've got any answers to that really. i mean i suppose i agree that erm but do you have any children? oh, yes. i do, yes. and how do you cope? well my children are quite young and i just try to give them as accurate information as i can. i mean i'm i mean for me the issues is avoiding guilt tripping them, but at the same time erm i want them to know erm that they are real children who are being really affected and hurt and damaged and losing their parents as a result of this war, and that is a hurtful thing to know. and how do your children respond when you say that? well, they are interested and they play games around it with their friends. i mean i think that's extremely important to allow children to erm you know play things out in the best way that they which is in a sense their way of coming to terms with things erm and to answer their questions as honestly as i can and to admit it when i don't know the answers erm and also, i mean in our family we've taken various actions to try to stop the war and we've, you know, taken part in demonstrations and written letters and erm has the way that you've dealt with your children's anxieties brought you closer to them? well i suppose it has in a sense, yes, it's enabled us to both confront the fact that that i'm not all knowing and that i'm not all powerful, which i mean was because my children, as i say, are still quite young, which is something new for them, i suppose, as well as something new for me. all right, and elizabeth capewell, here in the studio. i suppose well my children would say my answer to everything is to say to them breathe, you know, and erm you know just do very simple relaxation if nothing else, and then that allows you maybe to start looking at other things, but to get to the state where you can begin to look at things without the fears and emotions getting in the way. allowing giving them time, i mean maybe this is what we should be, you know, hopefully we'd be doing this anyway, but just using what we use in our family anyway to talk to, you know, as them questions. if they come up with a question maybe just find out what's being it erm not just reaction to a particular behaviour, but asking them how the feeling, you know maybe pointing to the bit in their body that's actually feeling butterflies or whatever and trying to help them to express the fears and, more importantly, to make them concrete in terms of play, drawing, or acting it out. well many thanks to my three guests. to frankie rickford, a journalist on the guardian, to elizabeth capewell, director of the centre for educational responses to disaster, and to elizabeth howell from exploring parenthood, which organizes workshops to help parents and schools cope with children's feelings about the war. that's it from me, bill heine. thanks for joining us. goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today we'll be talking about the big budget decision of yesterday, when the oxfordshire county council met to agree on a budget that will affect all of us here, especially people in the education services and the social services. the budget was basically an agreement between the conservatives and the liberal democrats, and the labour group didn't seem to get much of a look in at all. well, i'll be joined later on in the programme by david waldon, the leader of the conservatives, but right now eva barnes, the deputy leader of the labour group is with me, and john cochrane from the liberal democrats is here. first of all, many people have been asking me on this programme in the past what credentials you people on the council have for setting a budget. you're dealing with millions of pounds, you're dealing with very important parts of peoples lives here in terms of services. what credentials do you have to decide how those millions of pounds should be spent? what makes you something special? john cochrane. i don't think we're anything special. i think we're ordinary people who take the budget decisions very much with the advice of the officers. the officers will set out what they feel would be an appropriate what they feel may be an appropriate budget and we will look at those figures and we'll decide where certain elements of expenditure should be increased and where they should be reduced. we basically are not special people, although some of us do have special skills. i mean, for instance within the liberal democrat group we have got an expert mathematician. he is extremely useful to us in that role. i am a qualified chartered accountant. i run my own business. i have was for many years the national chairman of the association of independent businesses. i have negotiated with government on a number of business issues, so i think i have certain special skills to bring in, but they're not necessarily the skills of someone used to dealing with huge budgets, because my company is quite small. yes. let me take you up on one or two of those points. you say you're an accountant, well a lot of people consider accountants to be tickers, those people who check other people's facts and figures, and secondly you presented what the county councillors do as more or less a rubber stamping of what the officers put before them. is that the case? no, i said the officers will produce figures which we will then very, very closely examine. when erm the liberal democrats made the council into political balance in nineteen eighty five, we asked the officers for what was called needs of the service statements. that is an analysis by the officers of what additional funds they felt was needed for them to fulfil their statutory duties. it is the basis of those reports that have become an annual feature of the budget making process. on the basis of those reports we either accept or reject and very, very much question. when you first started on the council, and how long ago was that? nineteen eighty five. yes, six short years ago when you started on the council. it must have been quite a shock for you all of a sudden to be dealing with millions of pounds on the budget. how did you come to grips with that? simply by doing the paperwork, by analyzing the figures, because my background is one of analysis, and coming to sometimes political decisions and sometimes unpleasant political decisions. but that's what one learnt. as a councillor one learnt the art of politics really, as a young councillor certainly. mhm well, eva barnes, what special credentials do you have to bandy around figures that are millions of pounds. well i think and probably the rest of the labour group operate in a rather different way from the way that's just been outlined. we don't see ourselves as special people and we don't see ourselves as having specific financial credentials, although some members of our group, not myself, may have those, but we try by listening to the people who've elected us and listening to in general comments that are made from outside the council, which is a terribly closed body. we try to formulate policies that'll meet the needs of the people who speak to us and then we use officers, not to make necessarily proposals on policies, but to help us to work out the financial ways of achieving those policies, so that's almost the other way round from the way that john outlined. mhm when you first started, though, eva barnes, you're the deputy leader of the labour group now, you've been on the council for how long? same length of time as john, eighty five was my first election. yes. how did you cope with dealing with these massive figures when you first started? i mean didn't they overwhelm you a bit? well, yes they do overwhelm you until you start associating them with services that are provided by that finance with the people whose lives are affected by them, and erm you break them down and obviously all councillors, i think, have areas of special interest and so you become much more familiar with particular areas of the council's expenditure erm rather than necessarily being very, very precisely informed about every single area. but as i say, officers are there not to propose not to propose policy, but officers are there to do the sums. nobody expects councillors to be able to do sums involving three hundred and fifteen or fourteen million erm without professional help, just like any business would expect to use professional help for that. well another question — it's been put several times on this programme — it's something like this — councillors have just been considering cuts in budgets that will affect the voters. have they considered cutting their own attendance allowances at the meetings? let's put that first to david walden. welcome to the programme, david, the leader of the conservatives. thank you, bill. erm yes, we have considered that erm i seem to remember there was a recommendation to that effect in one of the group's proposals. well was that part of your agreement yesterday with the liberal democrats. no, it didn't form part of it and erm if it were to be done it would be having, shall we say, a political impact, but the sums are of such a nature that they are of no significance in the context of the budget as a whole. it would be a gesture, i think, by councillors of recognition that hardship is erm perhaps being endured and that they should share in it, but it would be no more than a gesture. but you decided against making that gesture. we didn't really consider it seriously. why? we did not we think i think we thought it would be seen merely as a gesture. i would have no effect at all on the kind of figures and the size of figures that we were considering, and, having been seen as a gesture, it would be really pointless to make it. that's one way of looking at it. john cochrane, your views on this. certainly it didn't feature in the budget that we put forward. i the sums involved and that was the budget that was, in an amended form, agreed with a conservative budget in an amended form, for the whole county council. so it was a conservative coalition with the liberal democrats that pushed the budget through. so your views on this one are terribly important. certainly. and i think i'd echo what david walden said. the reason why a cut in members' allowances was not in our budget is i think we didn't consider it and we didn't consider it because the figures involved are so small that it wasn't a matter which was, as i say, worthy of financial comment, although i accept it has a political dimension. although i would also say that i don't suppose there are very many councillors that don't actually, at the end of the day, being a councillor is costing them a lot of money and those members' allowances are very, very small and they certainly in my case nowhere near cover the cost of being a county councillor. i suppose some people who are in receipt of social benefits might say their benefits are very, very small, come nowhere near covering the true cost to them and their families are having to foot the bill for a lot of what's done, and sometimes, when maybe their allowances are cut by a little bit, they might think ‘erm well perhaps if the oxfordshire county councillors had cut a little bit of their attendance allowances maybe i could have little bit more’. what do you say to them? david waldon. i think erm you've got to say that it is not easy to find people to give the commitment to local government work these days and i think a partial remuneration of the expense that they incur is a very reasonable thing for the public to have to meet. erm there was a time, for instance, when we had members of parliament who were gentlemen of means, perhaps, and who did not need to draw salaries, erm and it was erm perhaps a gentleman amateur job, but it's all changed totally now and now we recognise that erm to be a national politician is a career and erm it is a career which is perhaps rewarded at the going rate. erm local government, and i regret this, is probably going that way in that the demands upon councillors are getting more and more, and for various reasons it is getting more and more difficult to find now in local government what i would call the amateur who who i think predominated in it, certainly outside the cities, up to nineteen seventy four. right, well eva barnes, you're the deputy leader of the labour group. now, did the labour group what was your position on proposing cuts and the attendance allowances for the councillors? yes, our group did produce did propose cuts. we felt quite strongly that although it was a gesture, i don't think it was a political gesture, i think it was a gesture that we as councillors wanted to make so that we personally would suffer some of the reductions in erm finance that we were going to impose on other people. we did decide that we should reduce the money that is received by councillors, and so they were proposals that were made along with other proposals about reductions in members' services. i do think it's very easy to say that sums of money are not financially significant. we had some very, very moving speeches yesterday, as we had had at previous meetings, which made it quite clear that a few pounds were vital and crucial to people's lives, so we thought it was a a gesture that was worth making, and i have to say that probably our group also includes people on, as members, as councillors, who are themselves on income support, so it was a move which wasn't without it's personal difficulties for us either. but your your proposal was not accepted and the budget went through with no cuts to the benefits or the remuneration for the councillors. that's right. right. well let's talk about precisely what happened at that meeting yesterday. there was a coalition, some would call it a cuts coalition, between the conservatives and the liberal democrats, to produce a budget. what is in that budget, who will be helped by that budget, and who will be hurt by it? let's first go to david waldon because i think that you you command the support of the largest group on the erm oxfordshire county council and i suspect that the budget had a great deal to do with your views. yes. erm our main objective if i could start with education, which is erm the erm predominant service provided by the county, we were concerned to protect the delegated budgets to schools, particularly the primary and the secondary schools. we see the future of the education service depending upon local financial management, and erm, as i have said, we were very keen to protect the delegated budgets which erm by and large we erm have succeeded in doing. we could not avoid, we felt, erm a small part of the fixed cost to the primary schools being cut, but that was offset by a provision for additional staffing in the primary sector, which we identify as an important item. so we had to as far as all the schools and colleges were concerned erm there was a previous council agreement that erm increments, that is the progression of council employees through their salary scales, that had to be funded from what we call base budgets this year, so the budgets of the the delegated budgets of schools had to erm bear that cost along with everybody else. what does that mean in practice? that meant in practise, i speak in the primary sector i think there's five hundred and forty six thousand of the delegated budget taken out, and i will have to — if you will allow me a minute yes, they're sitting here with tomes in front of them. i'm afraid i've brought the wrong one . well but it will do for answering this. perhaps you could adopt ours on this occasion. i will offer it up to you. it was a similar figure in fact in the erm secondary sector. there were erm, let us be honest, erm other what we would call non-core parts of the education budget, which were cut or reduced. for instance? for instance erm we reduced, and this was common to all groups,we reduced the amount provided for in-service training for teachers. that is the training they do whilst they are basically on the job. we considered that was one that could be afforded. and what else? erm and erm i think this is going to be a there is a lot of paper to wade through. savings erm from reduced costs in the school meals sector. what what will happen to the school meals sector? well they they will continue, but there will be an adjustment now to the charging of the school meals, because the joint budget did provide for another two hundred and fifty five thousand income for that reason, and erm the savings does that mean children will will what will it mean for children? another ten pence a meal. it will mean yes, about that. children will have to pay about ten pence extra? those that take up the service, and of course we all know in the school meals service that the take up figures are very low. library recharges was reduced, that is the recharging from the council's library service for the service that they provide to the schools. that has been cut. and really one one goes on. there are a whole list of erm i would call non-core items, which erm were previously included in the education service department which will now not happen. like for instance? what about social psychiatric social work? psychiatric they have erm not been there were proposals originally from the conservative group to discontinue that service, but as part of the erm negotiations that took place that was withdrawn, but there is a, i think, a ten thousand pound efficiency cut to be made in the p s w service, so it is not being cut, but erm the sum is being reduced, and it will be self-financing out of efficiency measures. mhm well that's in general what happened with the the education service. now i understand you will have cuts in the nursery school budget. how much? yes, a hundred and fourteen thousand i think. yes. plus a certain amount for increments of about a hundred and twenty thousand. yes. the increments that's right. what will this mean to the nursery school. well i think the hundred and fourteen thousand john cochrane from the liberal democrats. the hundred and fourteen thousand saving is actually expenditure that hasn't that we can't make this year. it's part of the capping programme which we just can't make this year, and i think that's erm that's that saving. it's not being carried forward to future years. it's a once and for all saving. erm it's unfortunate, but our but what will this mean in terms of people on the ground. you see i would like to see people at the end of this programme to have some idea, not just of fancy figures in the air, but of practical effects that will affect them on the ground. well i don't think that cut will make any effect at all, because the money wasn't going to be spent anyway. except that since it's not longer in the budget it's not available for future spending. it could have been carried over and plans which are embryonic now could have been implemented with it. i think, bill, really you far be it for me to try and teach you your job, but you ought to have perhaps gone back a little bit and wondered why we were all in this position, because you have us in year after year talking about budgets that are made and budgets which improve services, and and we need to be absolutely clear that this budget does not improve services at all, that this budget does very severe damage to services, that the budget that has gone through the council identifies nearly eight million pounds taken off service provision erm and that cannot be done under the conservatives by making erm a budget with the liberal democrats have proved that it can't be done, in spite of their previous comments, without pain to services. well that's what i'm trying to establish that's the background that we're against. right now. i want to know what has happened and then we can criticise it, but i first want to be clear right. mhm of what's happened. now you've set a budget which is below the level of at which the oxfordshire county council would be rate capped, or poll tax capped. very marginally below that. how much below? five hundred thousand below that. five hundred thousand below that. yeah. why? why are you cut establishing a budget below the that capping level? well we now go into the political debate erm bill. we have in the conservative group always taken the view that oxfordshire has erm contributed to its own problems to a very great extend by going, in its projected spending for this year, beyond the level set by the secretary of state for capping. could i perhaps go on and erm pick up what eva barnes was saying erm a minute ago well i'd like an answer to this questions because i think it's fairly fundamental. i you see you're not exceeding what the government is establishing as your target level, you're falling short of that, and that means that some people will not get services that they would get if you had gone up to the level. it isn't a target level. the target level is standard spending assessment of two hundred and ninety nine million. the capped level, or whatever we like to call it, is the criteria that has been established by the secretary of state, and he has said it is five per cent beyond the standard spending level and he says if councils spend beyond that then he is liable to introduce his capping legislation and but you can spend up to that level with impunity. why didn't you? well, you don't whether you can or whether you can't. i mean it's not i think that's being, you know, that's correct. if we spend up to what you described as a capping level, then i'm absolutely convinced we will not be capped. what we don't know is how much above the capping level we might be able to spend because we don't yet know what are called the deminimus provisions. we just don't know those. there may be none. last year there were some, so the liberal democrats took the view that we could only properly set a budget at the capping level and that is a level at which we set our budget and it was a level at which we set our budget back in december and right through to this date. we had to, of course, make a one million pound reduction following the s s a the final s s a announcement which heseltine made about three weeks ago, but we were always at the capping limit, and i think but you've agreed to a budget that is less than the capping level. why? why? because we offered our budget up to negotiation to both the political parties, over the last eight weeks. now i regret to say that the only political party that actually entered into negotiations on this occasion was the conservative party. the labour party did not enter into negotiations. now that's unusual, because for the last five or six budgets have always been labour/liberal democrat budgets. on this occasion they did not come to us and say right we want to negotiate, although several times we went to them and said please, here's our budget, you know, our budget is now ready, we want to negotiate. so from your point of view you were forced into bed with the tories, but why are you spending less than the capping level? because at the end of the day, at the end of the negotiations, we were left with the two choices either the our budget reduced by half a million, which is point one six per cent— right — that budget or the labour budget. those were the choices, and if we dissect the labour budget i think you'll see that we were quite proper in deciding that for all its faults, and i mean this is not a budget that any of us in that chamber, you see, certainly no liberal democrat, wanted to even put forward at all. it was a budget that severely cut services to vulnerable people. we didn't want to do that. we weren't elected to do that. we are working within a straight jacket imposed by central government, but our choice was that budget, for all its faults in totality, for the fact that it was half a million less than it could be, and the budget put forward by the labour party who had totally refused to negotiate on their budget, and therefore we ought to look at that budget in detail to see what was on offer, because it wasn't very pretty. it isn't quite wrong, bill, for it to be said that councils should be spending up to their capped level. erm the capped level is an arbitrary level, taken by the secretary of state, beyond which he will restrain expenditure in the interests of protecting the charge payer. others can make a judgement that you should be spending less than that, and in fact the first budget we presented yesterday was at the level of three hundred and eleven point five million, which is further below the capped level. yes, there have been some comments made eva barnes, for labour. which i do need to respond to. i'd like to speak first of all about what john was saying about negotiations and then subsequently about spending up to charge capping level. erm i, as the deputy leader of the labour group have had no approach of any sort in any form from any member of the liberal democrat group. i understand, and it has always been our position, that we have between policy and resources and the council meeting been willing to listen to proposals. however, we have made it quite clear that there are certain erm issues erm which we stand very firm on, and we were not interested in erm moving on issues like charging frail elderly people and physically handicapped people for the already fairly sparse services that they received, so we put that, if you like, as a no-go area. however, though, there were many areas that we would have been happy to listen to proposals about. what i think we had, and not me personally, as i say i had no proposals, but what i think some members of our group may have had was statements about what the liberal democrats were prepared to do, so there hasn't been a negotiation, but it certainly hasn't been a rejection of listening on our part erm. the thing has gone on in a different way from previous years, and the outcome, as you've observed, although the liberal democrats initially proposed spending at capping, they have gone down by half a million pounds. and if i could put that half a million pounds in context, as i tried to do in an amendment in council yesterday evening, that is almost exactly the increase in charging for people going to day care facilities. we are now charging frail elderly people, physically and mentally handicapped people to go to the day car facilities that they so value and so need. it is equivalent to that plus erm the reduction for indiscretionary awards enabling young people to obtain training and education, plus also erm the reduction in erm access to higher education for people who are educationally disadvantaged. erm charging also it would include also that half a million pounds charging increased charging severely increased charges for home help care. i put that as an amendment, not reiterating the entire labour budget, but i asked the liberal democrats, who purport to want to erm provide that sort of service to vulnerable people could they not accept that extra half a million pounds as an amendment, and two out of the group abstained, the rest of them voted against that as an amendment. well let's put that to the liberal democrat member here, john cochrane. i i observe that the liberal democrats have made a complete u turn in their previous adherence to providing a steady stream of services to the people of oxford, and by setting for a budget below the capping level you are taking out of funds available to people things that don't necessarily have to be taken out. well first let me say erm in answer to a question you put some time ago, what is it what is in this budget for the people of oxfordshire, and all you got from both councillor waldon and councillor barnes was a list of the cuts. there are actually some improvements. if you look at the social service budget, we are actually putting into effect the new children's act legislation, which was absent from the labour budget entirely. we are working towards the implementation of the new community care white paper, work which was totally absent from the labour party budget, and that was one of the reasons why we couldn't accept the labour party budget. there are areas of activity where we will be producing improved services, and so we i think in this very difficult time we have managed to maintain our erm adherence to the principle that wherever it is possible we will improve and increase the services to the people of oxfordshire. now you legitimately say why this five hundred pound cut? well the answer lies in the twelve hours of negotiation that took place yesterday. we were negotiating it's a five hundred pound cut? five hundred thousand. five hundred thousand. five hundred thousand pounds. yes, five hundred thousand. that's good. you were probably right to ask what qualifications councillors had to make budgets like this. we were negotiating with the erm conservative group and during that period of negotiation we shifted their budget up by two and a half million pounds. we then came up against a stop, and as i said a moment ago, our choice was between that budget, as negotiated, and the labour budget, and i've just shown you one hole in that budget. i could show you some more. yes, it's very interesting that, isn't it? there was an amendment eva barnes for labour. proposed erm and that point the liberal democrats went off with the tories. i actually said erm after the erm proposal by sheila terry ‘well, can we know what it's about. maybe we would want to listen to these proposals.’ i was told that all i needed to know was the total spend and that was it. there was no offer at all at that point of our participating our possible participation in the discussion. mhm david waldon for the conservatives. yes, i did in fact erm whilst when we were going through the education proposals erm i did list reductions as john has mentioned, but i did also include the extra valuation for primary staffing that erm has went into our budget and the liberal democrats and i think labour's originally, which is now included in the combined council budget. but i'd like to comment on what erm also john said about the new duties in the social services relative to the children's bill and care in the community. now labour have, in fact, under provided, i think, by about five hundred thousand for those provisions, which will have to be done. and erm i think it's a little bit of creative accountancy on their part in saying that and in fact putting that five hundred thousand elsewhere, and also they have erm done a further piece of creative accountancy in that the provision for pay and price increases they have reduced by one point five million, and the combined budget reduces it by half that figure. so there is another seven hundred and fifty thousand which, if you add to the five hundred thousand, is one point two five million, which erm labour, i think, by a measure of erm creative accountancy, have said that they will provide additional services for. yes, i creative accountancy obviously is a word that it's easy to bandy about. we'd never produce budgets without erm having thoroughly discussed them with the treasurer and saying to the treasurer's department of the county council, which is a very conservative department i have to say (with a small c); it's not given to wild flurries of excitement and imagination. we'd discuss our budget and say ‘are you able to support this as a viable budget?’. that has been said and again i went to see the treasurer's department this morning and have been assured that ours is a viable budget. erm on the social services issue, yes, indeed, we have chosen not to provide for additional statutory duties that the government has imposed on us with no erm accompanying finance. our attitude, and i think it's a totally principled and right one, is that we already have services which are statutory services which we do not provide adequately. our business is to ensure that what we are doing now is done properly, not to take on board new activities and try and finance them at the expense of groups which are already suffering very poor, or at least inadequate services. well i want to hear how this will affect people out there, the voters. i want to know who's going to win on this budget and who's going to lose. well nobody's going to win. all right. who's going to get to hurt most? can i + can i make i wanted to make general point earlier. yes, but this is this is a general point and i think that's what the people listening want to hear. well i wanted to say that erm since nineteen eighty five and constant november nineteen ninety prices, erm the council, by members' decisions, have erm put in another thirty nine million of additional service provision. yesterday we took out i think it was erm seven million plus a little bit out of that additional service provision, so we have put in thirty two million since its nineteen eighty five base in services throughout all departments. now education has of that thirty nine million the education department benefited by about eighteen million, and we took, i think it was erm four million out yesterday, we will be back to a net gain of fourteen million on education and social services have benefited since eighty five by about to the tune of nine million and or eight point six million, and we took about four hundred thousand out of that yesterday. but david so let's look at this in a we tend to but david with with respect but david i can just see people's eyes glazed over right now. well maybe they do, but we take this we always take this as a year on year situation and you've got to do a longer term comparison if you're going to get the true effect of the services if you compare what most people earn what most people earned six years ago with what they earn now, they would expect that earning to have increased, so you'd expect the budget to increase. but i want to know how this is going to affect people in the streets. i'll tell you a number of and facts. let's get down to brass tacks. all right. john cochrane. i mean the erm pupil/teacher ration in primary schools will be marginally affected adversely. now how what does that mean? that means fewer teachers for our children. fewer teachers for our children. does that mean thirty five children to a classroom, say, or what? oh no, you'll probably going up by less than on average less than one child per class, but the trend is going the wrong way. you will find fewer new books in your libraries because we've cut the library budget by seventy five thousand pounds. you will find that there will be one less old person's home, but that which one? that has not yet been put through. to be decided. that's to be decided. but erm on the other hand we do actually have empty spaces in our old people's homes, so whilst you will have people who may have to move a bit, we're not actually reducing the number of occupied beds in the whole old person's home sector yes. remember we're talking about people who are eighty or ninety moving a bit. you have to have that in context as well. oh certainly, certainly. but we have saved the elderly person's strategic in the vale of the white horse, in its entirety, which is well worth having saved. i mean in other words we'll now have a proper strategy the vale of the white horse, which was always an area of the county where the county council services to the elderly was poorer than elsewhere. but can i come back to david waldon's point about this thirty nine million? well well i want to know where are some of the other cuts going to hurt. what about well a quarter of the special needs advisory teachers will no longer be there. they're the teachers that help in schools, in primary schools particularly, but in schools where teachers where children have special learning needs. a quarter of them will no longer exist in the budget. well what's going to happen when these twenty five per cent leave? well i didn't propose that cut, so i'm not able to say. what will be the effect of this. well we yes, this applies to primary schools only. it erm doesn't apply to secondary schools or all right, let's talk about primary schools. what will be the effect. we believe ultimately that there is a case for the further development of budget in this case, and for the schools themselves to decide the levels of erm special needs advisers that they will want. but we still believe that even with this twenty five per cent lessening that there will be a sufficiency in the headquarters of the education department for advice to be given as is needed by the primary schools for the special needs. so you think that this twenty five per cent was fat on the bone and wasn't needed before? i'm not saying that, but i still think it is still a tolerable service will be provided. mhm it's interesting, because the two schools i'm i'm the governor, as all county councillors are, of schools, and of two primary schools, and the special needs advisory teachers were the things that were at the top of the list to be saved by both my schools. which schools were they? st. barnabas school in jericho, and west oxford primary school. erm the work that they do erm is absolutely vital. it's a resource erm that is needed in order to provide children with a whole variety of learning problems with specialized teaching, with specialized education, and we think in the labour group that it is a tragedy that those needs are not going to be recognised. i'd like to come in john cochrane from the liberal democrats. just come in there because we've found the response to the snas service was a little patchy. there were some people, some schools, who said ‘yes, it's absolutely vital, we just could not get on without it at all’ and there were others who were questioning whether that was money spent the best way for special needs. erm certainly the message coming back to us when we went out to consultation on this was not absolutely one hundred per cent by everybody in education that this was a service which had to be had to have no cuts whatever. yes, i don't think you'll ever get unanimity on something like this. certainly five per cent. no, no, but these these this was the answers by the professional in the field, not about the answers from the general populace. we're talking about the answers from the professionals in the field. what about teachers' salaries? let's move on just a bit. any optimism there for teachers' salaries to go up? well they they are provided for erm. the agreement has now been reached and erm that is provided for in the amount the council has for pay and price increases, and when we yesterday the council agreed to cash limit it's inflationary provision that was exclusive of teachers' and lecturers' pay, so that is secured, the cost is secured. yes. let's look at erm funding for sixth forms. will there be cuts there? john cochrane from the liberal democrats, any views on that one? i think they're going back to their big tomes here. yes. i'm sorry, it is difficult to keep all these things entirely in one's mind erm it's particularly difficult for those of us who didn't negotiate this budget, who now have to try and find what fixed costs for sixth forms have removed for sixth forms has been are being are reduced. yes. yes. that is right. well what will that mean to the sixth forms then? that means that there will be less fixed costs. in other words, if you have a sixth form in a school you get so much so many thousands of pounds because you've got a sixth form. yes. and so many pounds for each sixth former you have. right. we are reducing the fixed cost element, not the pupil element. the fixed cost element. what will this mean in terms of provision for people? it will mean that there will be a reduction in the amount of money that that school will have to run its sixth form, just as there is a reduction in the amount of money that a primary school is going to have to run its school. so you may have a poorer selection of subjects on offer. you may have less up to date books. so it will go that far. it might even limit the amount of subjects on offer? for those forms for those schools that have sixth forms, yes, but there are other ways of providing sixth form education within the county. for instance, the henley college provides a sixth form education in that part of the county. that isn't affected by this particular cut and erm there is yes, that is not the whole county, of course. but there is that level and kind of education provided in the other colleges of further education, and likewise it would not affect them either, so i don't think we're talking about necessarily a major part of the sixth form provision in the county. oh, we're talking about sixth forms, bill, and we're talking about all schools which have sixth forms and you're conscious that there are rather a lot of schools with sixth forms in the county and who will feel that it is a significant change. well what about the teachers, the effect on the teachers in these sixth forms. i mean what about their morale. what will this do to that? well i can't say that everybody's going to be dancing in the streets, those who are teachers in the sixth forms in the schools that will be affected, but i think again you've got to have a look at the overall and longer term provision of these things. there's it will still enable them to provide a tolerable service, and when it is a question of assessing priorities in any kind of cash limitation exercise you've got to look at your priorities. we believe that in education we have retained the core provision for the education service and we have to look at what we will call the peripheral areas to to see where savings and reductions have to be made. it really is incredible that we talk about sixth form education, the education of our young people between sixteen and nineteen, as a peripheral area. well it may be incredible, eva, but in your own budget you have removed you reduced the fixed cost element by fifty percent for sixth forms. by fifty percent, but i certainly wouldn't be i certainly wouldn't be referring to them as a peripheral area. discontinue discontinue fixed costs for sixth forms. i certainly wouldn't refer to them as a peripheral area, that was well then why do you reduce it? the fixed cost provision is not the major part of the funding of the sixth form, there are other parts of it. mhm well let's talk about okay, let's john said why did i reduce it and you haven't, i have to say, really explained to people why we are doing what we are doing now, why we aren't here discussing why there's another half million in the budget. why are we discussing why there's — eight million is it?— out of the budget provision, something like that. we really do need to look at the bill all right. because it must be incomprehensible to people who are already paying very high poll taxes. all right. why? well, it's because the poll tax is designed and the whole load of legislation that goes along with it, to increase the burden of erm payment on local poll tax payers. there's been a shift over the last six years from government funded government grant supported provision to poll tax ratepayer provision of these services. mhm and this is exactly what we're actually experiencing now, and this is why people in oxfordshire are going to pay more money for poorer services. it is direct consequence of the imposition of the poll tax. not entirely. john cochrane, from the liberal democrats. not entirely that because it is also to do with the mechanism by which government grant is distributed. government grant is distributed through a mechanism which is now called the standard spending assessment, an awful word, or phrase, but it is absolutely vital, and if you look at the standard spending assessment given to this county the government is saying we ought to be able to provide all the services for a total cost of eight hundred and seventy nine pounds per charge payer. now if you look at the figure for, say, westminster, which is a london borough much in the news in these matters, you will see that the government is saying that they can have a standard spending assessment of seventeen hundred and twenty seven pounds per charge payer. now let's translate that into reality. it means if we had that spending assessment and our costs, instead of the listeners getting a bill for four hundred pounds in their letterbox in may they would get a cheque for over five hundred pounds. that is the extent of the distortion in the government, the way the government issues the grant money. we get virtually no grant per charge payer, about a hundred and thirty pounds, westminster gets very nearly a thousand pounds per charge payer. more than we spend entirely. mhm so i think we ought to go back to what david waldon said earlier on, which was about the thirty nine million pound increase in the budget since nineteen eighty five. why was it increased? it was because in eighty five we had the lowest spending per household of any county in the country. when i got elected i got elected because the erm roads in this county were in a six hundred year repair cycle. i got elected because the teacher/pupil ratio well they still are, it seems. rather less because we've just taken some money out of the budget. i got elected because the primary teacher/pupil ratio was the worst in the country. and it's going to get worse still. no, because over the last six years we've actually gone from bottom of the pile to tenth from bottom. still nowhere near what and now we're heading back down? now we're doing a little bit of reversion and it is much regret by god for five years i have negotiated budgets with the labour group against intense opposition to conservatives and central government to improve the services in oxfordshire. what i've had to do this year, or what i've chosen to do this year yes, thank you. was to come to an agreement with the conservative group because in my view that budget was better than the one put forward by the labour. all right. i want to look at new charges for home care and day care and transportation services for disabled people. david waldon. yes, erm these always cause erm adverse comment and erm i not without reason. take the view that erm they are put up by the council from time to time for various reasons. they were put up yesterday because of the problems with the social services department, one of which of course was it's previous overspend. erm i cannot deny that erm they will not be received at all well by those that have to pay them. but what will it mean to the people? well, they'll have to pay more. and what if they can't afford that? we it will mean a reduction in services. well will it? everybody says that's what's going to happen, but erm when it's been done in the past i've not had any figures produced that indicate that the service provision has had to fall off because of increased charges. i hope it won't happen in this case. one of the qualifications for being a tory is that you can make comments like ‘adverse comment’ about a cut of this sort erm and remember that you have heard representations of the strongest sort from very well documented people who are going to be affected by these cuts. perhaps, bill, i could help you by using the example that sharon mace, on of erm the physically handicapped people who came to lobby council yesterday, used. she said that the increased charges to her, and she is totally immobile, except as i understand it from being able to move her head, the increased charges to her would be thirty seven per cent of her total weekly income of eighty pounds. that just puts it a little bit in context. no wonder you get adverse comments about that. i think we ought to john cochrane from the liberal democrats. yes, i mean, in contra-distinction to that, first of all a number of these increased charges, like fifty p for a journey to a day centre, they are standard practice in other counties. i mean it is not as if we've suddenly gone to totally new territory. they are standard practice. secondly, the director of social services has got the authority to waive any of these charges where it causes financial hardship and the whole mechanism has been put in place to inform people that this waiving waiver process is in place and to allow them to apply for waiving of those charges. and let's think about it, there are many people in this county who receive home help service, for instance, who could well afford to pay these charges, and we in the liberal democrats see that we can augment the service with the income we get from these charges. otherwise people on attendance allowance? no. well you are increasing the charges. people who get attendance allowance get that allowance to pay for attendance, and home help is attendance. all right john cochrane, we don't have much time. are you optimistic that erm people will perceive the services under this budget as better than they've had last year, or worse? oh, the services undoubtedly are going to be less. i hope they won't be worse in quality, although they might be less in quantity. mhm and david waldon. no, they're not going to be better, except in those isolated cases where the service provision has been produced. erm in education i am confident that erm schools and colleges will operate their delegated budgets very successfully and erm i think they will do so without detriment to the education service. and erm i think we've fairly applied the funds available to yes, i the council service. eva barnes, from labour. i think the services will be worse. they will be worse for frail, elderly people, for physically and mentally disabled people, and i think people will also be asking the tory and liberal democrat groups why they went for half a million pounds less than they need have done in service provision. well on that note we'll have to draw this one to a close, but i think the debate will run quite a bit. david waldon, many thanks. david waldon from the conservatives. thanks to eva barnes, deputy leader of labour and to john cochrane from the liberal democrats. that's it from me, bill heine. thanks for joining us. goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today we'll be talking about the social services department of oxfordshire county council, and i'm joined by the director of social services, that's ian white. well, ian, welcome to the programme. yesterday the it wasn't yesterday, it was earlier on this week, the county councillors set a new budget for oxfordshire and they made ten million pounds worth of cuts. how did the social services segment fare in those cuts? well i think, bill, if i was to try and sum it up i'd say that the social services settlement was the best of a bad job. erm once the government announced their capping limits later on late last year, the county council knew it was in trouble and back in december the social services committee faced cuts of something like three and a half million. well, on tuesday of this week erm the settlement erm gave us what is in effect erm a balanced budget — a lot of money in, a lot of money out. in other words, we've been funding from within our own budget new developments that'll come on stream next year and it's a very complicated budget and it contains some quite erm controversial erm subjects, which no doubt we'll go through in a minute, but overall erm, given the total financial situation, i'm a relieved man today. well why are you a relieved man, because a lot of people will be a lot worse off. well to do that, bill, i need to take you erm through the detail of the budget. way back in december, when we were first rehearsing erm the problems erm we were facing a hundred and seventy compulsory redundancies, the closure of an adult training centre, the closure of an elderly persons' home, erm the closure of a hostel and a whole range of other quite draconian measures. we are one and a half million pounds better off from that, and the compulsory redundancy problem has gone erm i'd have to explain the list to you, though, to give a proper context, and maybe that's what i should yes, let's start right now. go right down. well, in simple terms, erm we have to find from a range of measures two million pounds, which will then be ploughed back in to improving other aspects of services, and the big things on this list, and some of the most controversial, are the following. firstly the charges. they've received a lot of publicity erm and a lot of angst erm and they're quite complicated, so i'll go through them carefully. the first thing we're doing is the county council's going to introduce a charge for people who attend day centres. though that will be a charge for elderly people attending day centres for elderly people, mentally handicapped people erm disabled people and so on. the charge will be two pounds a day, which will include their meal, for which they already pay erm i think it's ninety p at the moment, so effectively it's an increase of a pound and ten p. but they'll also have to pay fifty p for transportation? the next charge is fifty p return journey for those people who we transport in and out of our centres. yes, so in effect these people will be paying two fifty per day. yes, some of them. yes, and someone rang up earlier on in the programme and she said ‘well, i have two children. they are both mentally handicapped. i am now going to have to pay five pounds per day for these children’. it's quite incredible. i mean where is she going to get that money? well this is where the problem of levying charges does become controversial. i'd make a number of points. firstly, nobody, but nobody would want to levy charges until it was a last resort, but if the alternative to levying those charges were perhaps that we had to cut the staffing levels in those adult training centres, then you get a different answer to the question, and i had a meeting about four weeks ago with the heads of some of our centres who've been asking parents and carers that question. what would you rather have — a charge or a general thinning out of staffing levels — and almost unanimously it was ‘we'd rather pay a reasonable charge’. that's point number one. now point number two is a general charge of this kind will affect different families in widely differing ways, and quite clearly there will be some families who can well afford to pay that charge, and there will be other people who cannot, and maybe the case that you were quoting me is an example of that. and there'll be a lot of families in the middle, where they're not sure whether they fall in one category or the other, but they dislike having to take their cap in hand and go ask for another subsidy. right. these are very emotional things, very difficult things to debate coolly. people will feel very strongly about them, but i would say the following. the charge that we're introducing for day care in oxfordshire has already been introduced elsewhere in the country. now you may say ‘so what’, but at least other people with mentally handicapped people attending day centres elsewhere in the country have become used to paying this. secondly, controversially, most of the people who attend our centres receive attendance allowances. a lot receive mobility allowances. and whatever you think, and however controversial this is, there is a line of argument that says that is a valid charge against those specific allowances that you receive erm from social security. but the big thing i've got to say well what is that argument? well the argument is that if you receive say a mobility allowance, and if we are laying on transport to get you to a day centre and back, maybe five days a week, then the argument is that that's a fair levy against that allowance. the charge that we're making will in no way gobble up the whole of that allowance, by any stretch of the imagination, but i can imagine people out there now reaching for their phones and probably going to disagree with me. but before they do, perhaps i can say the most important thing, which is that the charges that we're introducing are going to be underpinned with what we call a waiver scheme. a waiver scheme allows individual families to get in touch with me and to tell me if the levying of the charge will erm will mean particular financial hardship for them, and we've had experience of this. erm last year we introduced a home care charge, based on attendance allowance, and a number of families of elderly people got in touch with me and they're were obviously particular reasons why the charge couldn't be fairly levied to them. they might have been using the whole of the attendance allowance erm to pay for carers, outside of the care that we provided, erm or a member of the family might have given up work to look after another member of the family. so quite clearly individual family situations will change, and i'd like to use this opportunity to get the message across to everybody who's listening that when we introduce the charges you'll all get a letter, and the letter will say also that there is a waiver scheme, and the procedure you should go through to be considered for that. i can't say that we'll approve every one, but obviously we know that if you introduce a general charge there will be people for whom you do not want it to affect unfairly. what will be your criterion? well for deciding who is exempt and who has to pay. i mean to a certain extent i have just said them. people who, quite obviously when they get in touch with us, there are special financial circumstances. you could make up some theoretical examples. you could have a family of maybe erm an older carer with a mentally handicapped son or daughter who receives various allowances, but whom the total income for that family is such that it is so low because of special circumstances, maybe the mother has to have special heating, or special diets, or whatever, as to be logical that we waive some or all of the charge. erm it may very well be that certain family situations, such as the example i gave you example earlier — somebody may have given up work to look after a dependent. mhm and in that sense it would be obviously grossly unfair. because what i'd like to do is give people a view as to how they can best formulate their letters to you to get the right kind of reply from you. i can't give a set of specific criteria. sure. because there are thousands of people with thousands of different life circumstances. but the general principles are but the general principles are particular financial hardship, cases for. mhm particular social circumstances, family circumstances, exceptional family circumstances. tell me about them. those sorts of things. all right. whilst we're talking about charges, of course, i do need to talk about the home care charge, don't i? yes, indeed, so because that's also going to be erm a controversial one. erm the home care charge is, in fact, quite complicated. just to take listeners through it carefully, erm excuse me, firstly people on income support only will still get the home care service free, and that's something like seventy per cent of the recipients of the home help service will still continue to get the service free. but for people who are on income support and receive the attendance allowance, their charge will go up from four forty five to seven fifty. and for people who are not on income support, in other words they have means higher than that, but who do receive attendance allowance, their charge will go up from eight ninety at the moment to fifteen pounds. and again there will be the same erm circumstances that i have just been describing for other people applying here. we've just finished the first round of waivers for people receiving the home care service, and the criteria that i was giving you reflected those, and so when you get your letter, if you feel that you've got particular financial problems or particular family situations we should take into account, erm then do get in touch with us and we'll process it and we'll set out a procedure for you in the letter that we send. all right. well, i'm just wondering, i'd like to get some view of what percentage of people to whom you will levy these charges, what per cent of those people will probably be exempt? that's right. i need to break it down. i think the proportion of people who we give waivers to on these special grounds will be still a very small proportion. mhm but our estimates obviously assume a certain waiver level. yes. what level was that? . my accountant isn't sitting here on my shoulder, and i'd have to ask her, bill, but it's certainly we don't assume a hundred per cent take up for the purposes of estimating like this. erm secondly, the home care charge, a lot of people will still receive the service free, people on income support only. i would say for people attending day centres, the majority of people will end up paying the charge, or a reduced level of charge, because it's not all or nothing, we can waive part of the charge as well. erm i mean the object of the exercise, difficult as though it is to say, is to get income, and the reason we need the income is to protect the baseline of the services. we've got demand for home care coming out of our ears. what doesn't show in these council papers is that in my budget next year i've got another three hundred thousand pounds worth of home care service growth, so if i get two hundred thousand from income from the home care, the council is still putting in more than it's receiving, if you see what i mean. every penny of income we get gets ploughed back into erm the service, and it is a way of protecting the service, given the awful financial situation erm that the county council face this year. all right, but let me stop you for a moment, there. i'm sure people wonder what about the administration. what about your offices? what are you doing there? right. last time i was on this programme i think we had the same conversation, didn't we? towards the end of last year we finished a review of all our management costs and our structure costs and, as a consequence, have saved a quarter of a million pounds in our administration. that's before this budget actually started. it's reduced the number of supervisors and managers in the system. it's reduced the pay rates the overall pay rates that we pay them. we've made it a slimmer, and hopefully erm more cost effective, structure. a quarter of a million was taken off erm before we got into this budget cycle. obviously we are sensitive to the point that erm it would be wrong to have a heavy bureaucracy and all the rest of it when you're having to hit front line services. i believe we are a forty million pound organisation. a forty million pound organisation needs proper management, and therefore you do have costs on top of it, and they are proper costs. you wouldn't think of running ford or ici or whatever without a proper management. you wouldn't want, for example, the heads of our elderly people's homes to be sat in their offices pushing paper when they should be managing the home. you'd expect us to employ a clerk to do that. so not all administration equals bad, not all management equals bad. the other thing i'd say is that the budget settlement that we've got introduces a further hundred thousand of investment in new technology, and this is part of our push to making us more efficient in the way we manage our budgets and all the rest of it. but i do agree that people out there must keep wondering how do they know that we are as, as it were, as slim as we can be. yes, and they have to take your word from it. well they can also compare our costs with other authorities if they were so interested. i mean there are measures of comparison that exist which show that. well right now you're involved in a conference. yes, that's a staff one. it's a staff conference. it's a two day it's a residential partly. partly. and it's at the moat house. it is. that's a very posh, exclusive, expensive place to hold a conference. right. who's footing the bill? the department of health. we get a specific grant, sorry for the jargon, we get a specific grant from the department of health for all sorts of aspects of the management of our department and training our staff and so on. it's about three hundred and fifty thousand a year. we've just as i've just said, we've just finished reorganising our department. we've got a brand new management team coming into place on the first of april. we have to do some pre-planning with those people, so that they know what their jobs are, how the systems are going to work, what the priorities are. you say about the moat house being expensive, well it might be expensive to you or i as an individual, but when you're negotiating conference rates in the area it is actually cheap and very suitable. it's centrally located. we are near our offices. we've got good communications. we're not out of touch, etc. it's we're very conscious that erm the costs that we've incurred we need to keep strapped down to a minimum, but we have to manage a forty million pound organisation and you cannot do this on the back of an envelope. all right. good. to plough on with some of the other negative aspects of the budget, i've talked about the charges. we're putting in a hundred thousand of savings from our children's review. that's the plans that we've had for our children's services, but i'll come on to back to that in a minute. we're taking a hundred and fifty odd thousand out from a budget we have for additional staffing, and we're also taking now what does that mean? well, let me finish. we're also taking another four hundred thousand out of budgets that we had for planned improvements in staffing as well. now what this means is we won't be able to improve the staffing levels in homes that we'd planned, four hundred thousand pounds worth of that, and that is sad, but at least it's not throwing people out of work and reducing the current staffing levels. but what does this means for the homes in particular? what it means for the homes is that they're going to have to take a what we've been doing over the last two or three years is gradually improving the staffing levels in our elderly people's homes, because the dependency levels in those homes are getting very high. well what's the average erm age of admission, about eighty seven? average age of admission eighty five. eighty five? a hundred per cent of admissions physically disabled. mhm one in three and rising mentally disabled. so, quite clearly we're not dealing now with a population that's ambulant and so on. they need help getting up, going to bed, going to the loo, bathing, blah blah blah. and when you have that context where these people need help more and more and yet you're not going to be able to supply it, isn't that almost criminal? i mean that's a loaded word. i erm well but but somebody may need help and they i mean if somebody slips and falls. there's minimum standards and there's target standards, isn't there? yes. our staffing levels are at a proper minimum standard. we can cover rotas. we have two night people on at night. we have enough people to make sure that the basic safety and care of the residents of our homes are covered. you say that today, but it's a fluid situation. people are getting more dependent as time goes by. you could be repeating the arguments i make endlessly in council, bill. what our staffing levels don't allow us to do is for the care assistants to have the time they would like just to spend talking to elderly people, talking them write letters, get in touch with their relatives. that sort of thing. so, basically, you're saying that there are these cuts and that's going to mean the quality of life in the homes is going to go downhill. yes, but not, i would hasten to add, dramatically fast. i mean, i am not playing with words when i say this, but it won't improve as fast as we would have liked it to do because of the financial situation. there are other things on the list erm we're taking a hundred thousand out of our budget to buy places for mentally handicapped people out of county. well now what does that mean? now what that means is that we have what we call an agency budget. we pay for people to go and live in for ever. provision made by other agencies, guide post trusts, for example, mencap homes and so on and so forth . we shan't be able to do as much as we would like. we have a budget — i think it's about a million pounds in total on this — it's a hundred thousand, so it's one in ten over any one year less that we'll be able to care for in this way. now the biggest minus on the list is the closure of an elderly person's home. that will be in oxford. it'll save us a hundred thousand in the first year. it will be in oxford city? in the city of oxford, yes. yes. erm and that is the only item on the list which will require us to close something that we're doing at the moment. it will save you how much? a hundred thousand in the first year and three hundred thousand in the second and subsequent years. mhm because obviously we can't close it just like that. it'll we have to run it down slowly over the course of the year. yes. how will you decide which home to pick on. right. we have, as you'd imagine, a lot of data about our homes for elderly people — their occupancy rates, their location, the viability of moving residents and so on. the process that we'll go through is firstly i, now the council's made this decision, will speak to the three social services committee spokespersons about which home looks the most logical, and obviously i know which that one is in my own mind. secondly, if they accept those arguments, then before anything becomes public i then need to embark on a process of consultation with the residents themselves and with their relatives and with their staff, so that we can explain it carefully to them — what it'll involve, the time scale, what their options are going to be, how we'll go through this process and all the rest of it, all the ins and outs, and then i shall have to then go formally to a special meeting of the social services committee, probably in april, to say that i've carried out this consultation, that this is my recommendation as to the home the council should choose, and if they agree that then we move into implementation. and they would be highly likely to rubber stamp your suggestion at that state? i mean rubber stamp's again an emotive word. i mean it would be hopefully,. so far as any decision is logical, this would be a logical decision. right, but the way you're describing the process it seems i get an image of someone gently putting his hand on the collar and very firmly tightening the grip, without allowing the person to say i don't like this hand there, i don't like what you're doing. you see, if you were to make it public now, you would empower those people who might be the victims of this cut to articulate their views and to lobby and to be part of this process, rather than just passive participants. i think the process that i've just explained would allow that anyway, because what i would do, if i just go back over it again, supposing for argument's sake by the end of february we've agreed which one we think it's going to be, we then i then go to the home. my staff meet every resident. we write to all their relatives, as in early march. but basically you're telling them that it's almost an accomplished fact and erm they probably don't have too much room for manoeuvre. to a certain extent that's true. absolutely. the council has decided to close an elderly person's home. from that moment in time they will have the opportunity to express their views to councillors, to myself, to my staff. we will, when we go to committee in april, say all this. we'll report all this to the council. you're dead right, closing down a service of this kind is controversial and very difficult and has to be handled very sensitively. well, sensitively is one way of putting it. i think erm effectively and with a powerful hand is another way of doing it. now how about there was another place that was due to be closed down. that was the blenheim road yes. establishment in kidlington. that's it. and that was a day centre. that was a day centre for erm mentally handicapped people, and that's got a reprieve. yes. now why did it get a reprieve? because the name was put in the press early, before any irrevocable decisions had been made, and people there at that centre got their act together. they did an excellent job of lobbying. i was quite impressed by what they did. i'm sure a lot of councillors were gob-smacked, and what happened is that councillors were caught on the hop. they had to make policy on the hoof and they reprieved that place. and i think that's a wonderful example of people actually having power over the decisions. i mean if i could make a general point. firstly, i was i too was, if i can use the expression, gob-smacked at the strength of feeling that was expressed at the social services committee and subsequently at the policy services committee as well. social services the world of social services don't have as strong a lobby as the education lobby, or the environment lobby, nationally or traditionally, and in a way i think the awfulness of the situation got people to the point of saying enough's enough, and that was to me very healthy, absolutely healthy. that's the power of living in a democracy. yes, to you it was healthy. yesterday i had three councillors here in the studio. we were talking about budget decisions and after the microphones closed at the end of the programme they commented about that home in blenheim road in kidlington, and to them it wasn't healthy. they didn't like that one bit. and they said we're not naming the home for the elderly that will probably be closed. we're not doing that on purpose because we don't want a repeat of what happened over there in the blenheim road, where people actually had power. well, if they said that erm oh, that was confidential. oh yes, i wouldn't tell anybody. of course not! it's between you and me. . these things are very difficult, very sensitive. i can't say any more than that. i mean i am a mere officer who advises the council, bill, as you know. . i hardly dare say this in this context, but if we well now the council has taken a decision to close this elderly person's home, there is actually a logic to it, which i'd like to talk about. all right, have a go. we have been, over the last few months, looking at the distribution of our services for elderly people across the county. if you live in oxford, in the city area of oxford, you have a far higher chance of getting a home help, getting a place in an elderly person's home, getting a meals on wheels, than anywhere else in the county, and between the different areas of the county there are vast differences in that. our elderly strategy is moving towards trying to equalize, or even out, those big differences of accessibility, because if you live in wantage, and i live in oxford, say, we have a totally unequal access to social services for elderly people. well how did that develop? it's because over the last twenty odd years of investment in social services erm differential investment decisions were made, blah blah blah. it's grown up like topsy, and what we're trying to do is to equalize that. now what we haven't got to yet in this programme is what's going back into the budget. yes, but i still want to stay on this equalizing thing. well, yes, that's all right. i'll answer that. equalize down, or equalize up. well, wait a minute. what we're doing what isn't what we haven't talked about yet is that this budget protects our investment in increasing services in the vale of white horse, which will be home care services, occupational therapy services, day care services. the biggest difference in contrast on my equalization argument is between the city and between the vale, and so whilst again it might be controversial, there is a logic, with our backs to the wall admittedly, of saying right well we'll close this home in order to protect money that we've got lined up to come on stream next year. point one. point number two — in our homes in the city we are carrying vacancies. now you might think that's incredible, but we are. how many? more than the closure of a forty bedded home. so we will be able to locate the residents of whichever home we choose within a very tight geographical area, giving them choices as to where they go. if they want to take the opportunity to erm move to newcastle, to be near their relatives, they'll have that choice as well, and it's if we have to make difficult choices of this kind, then it's more — i'm sorry to keep using the word logical, but it is — it's logical to choose this one than to choose one of the remoter homes in the county that serves a local populace where there is no alternative. so, i know it's a sensitive thing this elderly person's home, but i would argue that underpinning it is a logic. a) we've got enough places in the city and we can relocate people carefully and sensitively, and secondly these are people with an average age of about eighty five? absolutely. and increasingly dependent and probably quite erm accustomed to the way their life is running in the home. yes to all those, but don't think also that we're not able to construct a process which does that sensitively, because we've got experience of doing that. just aside, we're upgrading one of our elderly people's homes elsewhere in the county and we've had to empty the home and move the people to an empty home for six months. yes, that's stirling's over in wantage, and you're moving them to shillingford for six months. shillingford for six months. and we were really worried, you know, what that would do. my staff tell me that the elderly people have sort of taken to it like a duck to water almost. it's a change in their life. it's something to plan for, etc. so, whilst i wouldn't want to over estimate or under estimate the problem, i think we've got to keep a balance in that. could i tell your listeners a little bit about the good news that's in the budget, because we've talked we've focused on the minuses so far, but there's a lot of plusses as well. all right, but before you go onto the plusses, let's talk to janet. hello janet. hello bill. calling from chinnor. yes. your views. hello, ian. hello. i was just wondering, would you have imposed these very high home care charges if you'd not been forced to by the cuts imposed by the poll tax capping. well, firstly the decision's the councils, obviously, not mine personally, erm there would be less pressure certainly to do that erm because, as i've said earlier, the charges will allow us to protect the home care service. erm i mean that's what i would say. it would then depend on the financial scenario. if the council was getting loads of growth in its budget it might not need to increase its charges. if we were in a zero growth situation and we still had all this demand, maybe we would have introduced the charges. but you wouldn't have done it quite you would have thought about whether you did it, whereas the moment you've been forced to do it because of the cuts that have been forced upon us by the poll tax capping. oh absolutely. yes. okay . that answered that, didn't it? is that that's your only question? mhm thanks bill. certainly. you got off the hook very easily there, ian. that's a change on your programme, bill . now go on to the plus points. well, i mean the point to make about this budget is i've just told you about two million pounds worth of minuses, let me tell you about two million pounds of pluses that are going in. firstly, i've just said, our budget protects what we call our vale strategy, which is an improvement in services for elderly people in the vale. it'll mean more day care, more home care, more occupational therapy, for people in an area of the county who get far less levels of service than elsewhere in the county. that's good news. secondly, i get another dollop of money, if i can put it like this, for home care right across the county. erm and as i said earlier, the income will by no means cover that new growth. thirdly, we implementing this year the children act. now in october of this year this is the biggest piece of legislative change in child care law for a generation and it'll shift the whole emphasis of child care services, not just children in care, but support to families in all sorts of situations, from an old out of date system to one very much where the emphasis is on the county council erm supporting families and their children. it'll involve us developing visiting schemes, under eight services, helping families in different ways, improving services for disabled children, developing family centres, and a new specific — this'll might amuse you this — a new specific responsibility for us to inspect and register the care practices of private schools in the county, and oxfordshire has got the biggest number of those in the whole country. we have to register them. erm i don't know if you remember the esther rantzen programme, i think three months ago, where they uncovered all sorts of misdeeds at a school in i think it was cuckham grange or somewhere in berkshire. well this is very much responsibilities placed on us to ensure that the care practices in residential schools, boarding schools, are up to scratch. so we've got a whole heap, as it were can of worms. well a can of worms, or a heap of possibilities, whichever way that you want to put it, but the children act in total we are going to spend something like another four hundred thousand in nineteen ninety one, in the new financial year, which is good news. but, forgive me, that just seems like it's a drop in the bucket. well it's a drop in the bucket in one sense, but it's on top of what we're already doing with our children's services, which are very good quality services now in the county. and it's a step. the following year that doubles up, and so on and so on. the second thing we're doing is we've we are going to attract a lot of money from what we call a specific grant for mentally ill. we will have new money coming into the county, specifically targeted by the government, which we will spend on homeless mentally ill people, day care, developing an even a much better social work service for people across the county. our mental illness services are the real cinderella services in the county, and by the county putting ninety thousand into its budget it attracts and quarter of a million of new development. so that's good news. we've also got to implement the famous community care act, which implies that we've got to set up an inspection unit of all our own services. we've got to set up a proper complaints procedure, so that people know how to complain about social services, although i doubt very much whether anybody would ever want to complain about oxfordshire's social services, and so on. and that's money we have to spend, and it in a way that was a controversial decision because members of the council were genuinely concerned about spending money on what might be seen to be central services, when they were having to face not improving staffing in elderly persons' homes. so we're going to keep we're going to try and keep our costs on this obviously stripped down to an absolute minimum. but there are new regulations which we have to bring in. well you obviously welcome all of these regulations, and this added burden on your services, but isn't that going to stretch your already over-stretched services too much? again, it why look at new mhm things to do when you can't even do the old things as well as you want to and as well as you should be doing? whether we like it or not, i don't have a choice. on the fourteenth of october the children act comes into force. from that day social workers in oxfordshire will be appearing in court. the court will have menus of orders they can dish out. we will have to, by law, respond to them, but you can't see the children act outside of the context of what we're already doing with our other children's services, as you know from previous discussions we've had and from keeping track in the papers, over the last eighteen months we've been recruiting more foster carers, reducing the number of children's homes, developing preventative services rather than receiving children into care. the number of children in care in oxfordshire is falling. it's bottomed out now, but it's fallen by about fifty or sixty in the last eight months. and we've generally been moving already with our big investment that we've already got in child care, let's not forget that, towards this philosophy of that's enshrined in the children act, which is building up parental responsibility and encouraging and supporting parents containing their own children, rather than being forced to give them up. yes, but it's that support yes. that is so crucial here. absolutely. do you feel that you're giving the parents the kind of support that they require? i think the general answer is yes. i think we have great erm in certain areas of the county we've got real tight problems. i mean, for example, in one area of the county we've still got major vacancies with our social workers because it's a typically problematic recruitment area. where's that? in the north of the county. erm and we've taken we've made moves to try and improve that, improving staffing, improving pay rates, blah blah blah. but there will always be pockets at any one time where we can't give as an equally good service as we would like. similarly, the city area has far more family centres than the rural areas. so in terms of equality of access to service, just like i was talking about with elderly people, people with families don't have an equality of access and what we're trying to do is build up in those other areas those services. a good example — national children's homes, a big national voluntary organisation, expert in family centres, opening a centre in abingdon, bringing new money into the county, not just county money, in partnership with us. ditto the development in didcot. erm we're putting money into developing new centres in witney, erm bicester and banbury. so what we have , if i can paint it like this, is a development programme which doesn't just rely on oxfordshire social services putting cash into it, because there are, if we manage this process properly, other people who we can encourage to bring money into oxfordshire, but the key thing that'll only do it is if they're confident that they're dealing with a competent organization and somebody that they trust and they have some form of credibility. and someone who won't overspend his budget. i've never been known to overspend my budget, bill . we're joined on the line by lou. good afternoon, lou. good afternoon, bill. calling from kidlington. that's right. yes, your views. bill, i have been receiving home help, for which i'm very grateful, a good service, but i paid four pound forty five a week for somebody to come in and just wash and dress my wife in the morning. that since january i now i have to put two stamps on a week, which makes it eight ninety a week, right? does did i hear rightly that that's now going up to fifteen pound a week? if i can answer that, bill. it rather depends on the gentleman's personal financial circumstances, and i wouldn't want to rehearse those on the air. all right. but if i can just reiterate the criteria. if you're not on income support or housing benefit mhm but if you get attendance allowance which i am. then it goes up from eight ninety to fifteen pounds. mhm and i think that's probably what you were saying. that's what i was saying i didn't know whether i'd heard correctly you see. all right. glad to help you out. thank you. certainly, lou. bye. bye. a caller phoned in to say that she couldn't get past her local doctor when she wanted a home help, and he said ‘well you're coping well enough’. so what could she have done to have got around him? by ringing up your local social services department office. we have offices — they are in the phone books — scattered all over the county, local offices. each one of those has a home care organiser. erm you can ring those, our home care organisers up, and they will advise you whether or not you are likely to get a home care and what other help might be available as well. that's the way to do it. all right. i just want to give my view on the budget. it seems like you got there's a logic, there are arguments behind what you're doing, and you're equalising things certainly, but i suppose what comes to mind is this phrase to rob peter to pay paul, and it must be very difficult to explain to the people in the old folks home when it's being closed, i'm sorry, you're doing this so that somebody else in a different part of the country will have a better quality of life. it's impossible to answer that questions, bill, really. everybody knows — including i think members of the council from all three political groups — everybody knows that we've got increasing numbers of elderly people, we've got increasing numbers of disabled and mentally ill people in the community, and if there is one service, and i know there are others, but if there is one service that needs constant new growth it's social services, and that's not me empire building or anything like that, that's me simply saying in straight managerial terms there are forces which require us to increase the social services budget. if we can't, then we find ourselves in situations like we are now. at least, the way i look at it trying to be ever the optimist, is that this is the least worst option. we've balanced out. you may say we've robbed peter to pay paul, and there's some truth in that, but we haven't at the end of the day gone further than that. remember the county council has had to find ten million, and to a certain extent, therefore, social services has been protected by the county council acknowledging what you've just said, the pressures on it and the importance of its services. what's the morale like among your staff now? i think there will be a huge sigh of relief that the axe that had hung over people's heads from december through 'til now has gone. that's, i think, number one. secondly, i think they'll reflect in their own ways the sort of thing i've said. if this year we have to stabilize in this way, do these things, then that's not a bad achievement compared with what we set out with three months ago. erm there are positives in this, as i've tried to stress today. there's new developments going to come on stream this year. they're good. there are some controversial things, which we shall handle as sensitively as we can, monitor carefully, and we'll keep our fingers crossed that next year's financial settlement will allow us to go forward again. how do you feel about managing the system here in oxford. it's got lots of problems and not enough money, and you probably have high hopes for what you wanted to do when you got here. do you look at all this as a pain, or a possibility erm? i think oxfordshire's a brilliant place, and i'm not just saying that because we're on the air. we have, in the two years i've been here, we have got a depth of talent in our staff that's hard to believe. they really are superb people. they work far beyond their contracts, without any asking or saying. the council, i think, are backing social services. they know what the problems are and they are prepared to take the controversial and difficult decisions. i'd rather work in a place like that, where we can face problems and move them on and develop things carefully, than to work in some places in the country where things are so far off agenda, as it were, as to be impossible. and i know colleague directors in the country who are green with envy at some of the things that we've been able to do even in these difficult times. so you're optimistic? i am. i'm a basic optimist anyway. i am optimistic now that we've got a stable base for the next year, and i'm always optimistic for the year after! ian white, director of social services, thanks for joining us. goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today we'll be talking about the tale of a man who lives in a churchyard. that's right, there's someone here in oxford who now and then lives in the churchyard of saints mary and john church in the cowley road. well what responsibility does the church have for down and outs and should the vicar try to get rid of this man in the churchyard, or should the vicar invite him into the vicarage. well my guest today will have views on those issues. reverend martin flatman is the vicar of saints mary and john church in the cowley road. pauline dungate has been working in the church for quite a few years, and she knows the man who lives in the cemetery from time to time. and reverend david brian is the curate at christ church at abingdon, but he used to work in saints mary and john church area. sister jenny runs the porch, that's a drop in centre for the homeless in the cowley road area, and lesley dewhurst is from the elmore group — that's a group that helps ‘difficult to place people'. well more about that later, but first the tale of the man who lives in the cemetery. martin flatman, welcome to the programme. ah, he doesn't live in the cemetery, he lives in the churchyard, doesn't he? yes, i know, well you know, you can't help it, your a bit foreign aren't you? yes. that's the problem with you. but he does, he lives in the churchyard, and he has done on and off, as you say, for a few years, and he's been a bit of a most of the time he's perfectly all right because he keeps himself to himself. he obviously doesn't like erm living anywhere else, and erm he's really very harmless, but the problem is that he erm frightens people erm simply by being there. he's behind the bushes, or he sits in the church itself when it's cold, and i don't blame him because it's been pretty cold the last, you know, few weeks. erm but erm it's terribly difficult to balance, you know, one's care for someone like that, and other people like that, with the needs of people who want to use the church to pray in and the churchyard to visit graves etc. etc. well people have rung into this programme saying that they've been put off visiting graves because this man is there. yes. what do you say about that? what i say about it is that if they are put off they should phone the police. that's what i tell them to do, because there isn't much more i can do. you can't actually order somebody out of a churchyard unless they are drinking. that's illegal, but anything else erm it's very difficult to order them out, particularly if they defy you and say ‘no, i'm going to stay’. you can tell them to go, but if they refuse to go there isn't much you can do. they've got squatters rights. interesting one. well, you've recently put a phone in the church. why? well precisely for that reason, that not only this particular person, but lots of other people at times cause trouble, and i'm not always there erm and pauline, who's next to me, who you'll probably talk to in a minute — she's over eighty, she'll kill me for telling you that because she doesn't look it, she only looks about forty, but — erm she stuck in there and people are frightened and erm worried about her, and the fact is that erm there's no other way of calling the police than having a phone. so now we've got a phone. it was put in today, and hopefully, if we do have trouble, we can then contact the police much more quickly. how long has this man been living in the churchyard? oh, four or five years. four or five years? yes, yes. is this i've been there four, and he was there a year before, so it's five years. five years. there you are, you see. yes. is does he live there off and on, or most of the time he's there. well, pauline, now how long have you been there? i've been working in the sextry for four years and he's been there all that time. erm at first he wasn't too bad, but he's just recently erm he just resents everything that's said. if you're nice to him — i won't use the language over the air (because you'd be shut down) that he uses to me — however nice you are to him it doesn't make a bit of difference. he's aggressive. he wouldn't touch anybody, i don't think, but his verbal abuse is out of this world, you know, whenever you and the thing is that he will persist in sitting in the church smoking his head off. everybody that comes in — you can imagine the reaction — and you ask him not to do it and his language is appalling, and he goes on doing it. people don't like coming into a cigarette-filled church. they object to it. and apart from that he looks he hates people coming into church. he glares and glares and them and there are two people oh, he hates people coming into church? oh yes, because he thinks he's got perfect right to be there and nobody else. and so he glares them when they come in? like, for instance, ‘what do you think you're doing’ oh yes. ‘in my territory?’ oh yes. oh. the thing is that two people this morning came to do their grave. one is a very gentle lady, much too timid really, but she said ‘is he here?’, so i said ‘not at the moment’. ‘oh, i'm not coming in if he's there, because i'm really frightened. that's why i bring my husband.’ so i said ‘well, there's no need to be frightened of him, he wouldn't touch you’, but you see then somebody was talking to me on the phone last night and said the same thing ‘we don't come any more to say prayers as we go through the churchyard because we're frightened’. this shouldn't be. mhm you've got to know this man. oh, very well indeed. i've had lots and lots of talks to him. he doesn't talk to me much now because i'm afraid i've been the one who's been tipping him out of the church when he's smoking. how do you tip him out when he's got a lot of ash on him? well i tell him he must go, and if he doesn't i just open the door wide to let the cigarette smell out and erm course then he as i say, i can't tell you what he calls me, but erm but you do the trick and get him out? oh yes, oh yes. yes. not a shrinking violet at all! well, so what have you found out about this man. i mean, what's he like? pardon. what what's he like? i mean erm, do you know much about him? well, he's talked to me why is he there, why does he want to be there? he's talked to me from time to time. when i first got to know him he was in a very bad state and he he really was. he was shivering. he was cold and hungry and what have you. he told me that he'd got a good home, or he'd had a good home, and he just i said why don't you live there? because they won't have me any more. well he told me several other things, which perhaps i better not disclose yes, quite. don't betray any any secrets. any secrets on the air. he did tell me some other things about himself. erm but he is he's a loner. he doesn't like people. he doesn't like noise. mhm he even complains in the mornings in summer of the church bells? about the birds, you know, because they make too much noise. the birds, yes, well. yes, but you see this is just to give you some idea of his mentality. yes. but erm lately he has got a lot worse. yes. well if he were to have complained about the church bells he would have had my sympathy, but i i think he's got my sympathy anyway. does he have your sympathy? reverend yes, up to a point he has got our sympathy. mhm well, david brian, now you're a doctor and a reverend and your the curate at christ church in abingdon, but you spent some time over there in saints mary and john church. isn't this an example of precisely the kind of person that christ said ‘go out, find, and help bring into your bed’? i think that actually raises the question very well, actually, bill. i think that this particular man is erm something of a challenge to us. it's a symbolic embarrassment to have man in a graveyard outside a church, not getting any sanctuary, especially when you consider not only that background you've mentioned, jesus himself actually said that he had nowhere to lay his head. so here we are, you know, our leader was someone who was homeless for times during his ministry and he belonged to a people who said their god was the father of the fatherless and the protector of widows, and god who gives the desolate a home to dwell in. i'm quoting there from psalm 68. so i think we are here facing an acute symbolic questions erm but if somebody's choosing to want to live that kind of live it's a very difficult thing to deal with. erm it's it reminds me of the kind of embarrassments that we experience on a number of levels actually. the church is trying to do something, but i think having people like this man in a graveyard raises the question of whether we're actually doing enough. for example, i was very embarrassed a few years ago when all his hoo-ha came out about this erm bishop who was getting this marvellous mansion in the country, and i thought to myself i'm not totally sure whether this is right. but that that was a local yes it was, and it was and i don't want bishop and a local house. absolutely. it was with a stable, if i recall. you've got it. and erm a swimming bath. absolutely. and to be really frank, one has to say when those kind of things come out in the open one has to say has the church got its priorities right? i can also think of another example of a house and erm i want to be careful here because my they're friends, who are also very sensitive about this, but they've had their house refurbished in the middle of oxford. it's a vicar's house, and thousands and thousands of pounds were spent and one wonders, you know, really whether this was the right moment, you know, the piquant moment to be doing this when we have in our streets men and women who erm are in desperate need. erm but on the other side, i do think i want to say this afternoon that erm the church is trying to do something. the gate house project's about to open up in the middle of town, which is a drop in centre, sponsored by city centre churches. erm it's going to be in the northgate hall and erm members of the churches from the city centre are going to staff that between five and seven for those who've nowhere to stay between those hours. there's also a diocesan council for the social work initiative taking place on the cowley road, a drop in centre for single mums, and it's hoped that's going to be extended to erm hostel arrangements. so the things are happening, and you'll be talking in a moment to jenny and the work she does at all saints convent. they are individual initiatives, but i still feel inside myself, my conscience is saying we could do more. we could do more, and this is a very symbolic challenge. and it's particularly, i think, acute in the parish of saint mary's and saint john's because the vicarage has been empty for two years and erm they built a new house, it was more it was cheaper to build a new house than to do the old one up, but there it's been sat, empty for two years, and erm they've been trying to find a buyer. we need to find people to buy these places so that we can sort of balance the books, but one wonders, you know, couldn't something have been done with that empty building for two years while there are folk in the area with nowhere to live. i really do wonder. anyway, back to you. well, no, not to me. let's go over the sister jenny. welcome to the programme. your involved with the porch. now exactly what is the porch, and where is it? the porch is a drop in centre for the homeless. it's open every morning and every evening erm and we give hot drinks and sandwiches to anyone who comes. and that's in saint mary's road, isn't it? yes, it's in a building attached to the wall of the convent, so that it's people can walk in off the street directly into the porch. but it's a very small building. we can only have sixteen people at any one time. and do you allow people to sleep there all night? no, it's simply a refreshment centre, twice a day, but we have no overnight accommodation. about how many people use that centre? about a hundred people a day. one hundred people a day come there? about that. erm it's difficult to be sure. some people use it morning and evening. yes. so we have about forty people in the morning and about sixty people in the evening. erm do you know how many homeless people there are in oxford? i've heard a figure of about five hundred and i just wondered if that rings a bell as being reasonable with you? i would have thought that it was at least five hundred, because there are so many hidden homeless who are sleeping on people's floors. i think quite a lot of the students are sleeping on friend's floors and they're not ever counted amongst the statistics. but nobody keeps statistics, so nobody really knows. yes. i suppose we're talking about people who people other people the people who are paying the poll tax just don't really care that much about. do you think that's an accurate description? i think there's a lot of ignorance. erm and i also think that a lot of people are struggling with their own lives and they haven't got time to worry about other people. once people are made aware of the problems, they usually help in some way. you see i'm i'm not at all convinced to that. i think that's a charitable explanation, and i would like to feel that, but i'd i think that there's enough information out there. i think we don't have any more excuses to hide behind, like this man who is there in the churchyard. i mean he's right there, and he's a challenge, but how are people responding to him. i think by and large they're probably running away and don't want to have much to do with him and they don't like these people, probably, who use your drop in centre because they might smell a little bit and they might be down at heel and they're not really people who are going to contribute much to the lives of those other people who are trying to get on and make things better for themselves. i think we're dealing here with people who are seen by the majority to be liabilities, and the majority don't want to touch and have anything to do we're dealing with modern day lepers. mhm yes, i think that's very true. erm it does take a lot of effort to move over to meeting them as individual people, and once you've understood that they are individual people and you get to know their interests and get to know your common humanity, then that's the point where you want to get on and do something more, but it's very difficult to recognise the common humanity, and a lot of why is it why is it difficult? because people are so angry, they're frustrated with the system and their anger gets in the way and it frightens people. the majority of people who come in are angry because they can't get anywhere. it doesn't matter how hard they try, the system knocks them down. you know, they might just get up a little way and then some bureaucracy knocks them down again and they're back where they started. without betraying any secrets, or identifying any particular people, can you give us general cases that would illustrate this? i mean what happens with some of those people when they try to get on their feet? they are knocked down again? well, they can go for a job, for example, and because they have no address they can't get the job, because they are not reliable. even if they do get a job on a scheme, it's very, very difficult if you're sleeping in different places every night, or in a hostel, to get to the job on time. you don't have anywhere to wash your clothes or even yourself sometimes, so you're dirty and your clothes are dirty and you're not eating properly so you're more liable to illness and this sort of thing, so that you're not likely to keep a job even if you get it, and you can't get accommodation without a deposit, and so you need several hundred pounds in order to get accommodation. housing benefit is very, very difficult to get erm and again it's paid in arrears, and landlords won't wait for that, so you can't get accommodation erm and you just sort of go down and down with discouragement really. and how do these people express their anger to you? verbally usually . do they ever get violent? yes. what happens then? well, they have a fight erm they very rarely attack us, but they very frequently fight amongst themselves, and it's usually over something that's happened previously, but a few stupid words can just spark something that could be ignored if everything else was all right, but it an insult on top of hundreds of insults will just tip them over. mhm well, i'm also joined by lesley dewhurst. now, lesley, you're from the elmore support group. i didn't even know that existed. what is it? what does it do? we're an independent organization. we've been around now for two and a half years erm we work as support workers, i suppose, like erm community workers or social workers in some contexts. we work with people who have fallen through the existing nets of provision erm generally because their problems are so multiple that no particular one agency can deal with them. for example, somebody might erm be homeless, but no hostel in town will take them on because perhaps they have a mental illness or a drug problem, or perhaps they are in trouble with the courts erm we can return to that hostel with the person saying ‘don't worry about these other problems, just fill in the bits you can, the accommodation, and we'll sort out the other bits’. meanwhile, we'll be trotting them along to probation or a solicitor or whatever and getting that side of things dealt with, etc. etc., so we try to stitch together some sorts of packages for people who otherwise fall through. so you're scraping the bottom of the barrel? that's a in some ways a very unkind way of putting it, but yes. mhm and what sort of anger do you find from these people? immense. the same sorts of things that sister jenny was talking about. erm on the problems of getting a job, for instance, erm in oxford, because there is such an inequality between the erm rents that landlords will charge people on benefit and the rents which anybody on a low paid job could actually afford to pay. it is impossible, in many ways, for somebody who is erm on benefit and living in independent accommodation with a private landlord often it's impossible for them to get a job and then cover their rent, so they can't get a job. it's as simple as that. it seems like it's a pit that people slide into. are more people falling into that pit? is it enlarging? erm yes, it is. the erm help available is in many ways decreasing erm i'm afraid we have to drag politics into it sooner or later, but central government funding, or lack of it, erm to my mind lies at the bottom of many of these problems. like for instance. where do you think that more money needs to be spent? erm well, the government are in the process of launching a massive new initiative called care in the community erm i'm afraid a lot of people working in my neck of the woods find this rather well not amusing, but erm it's slightly hysterically amusing, because the amount of money that would be needed to fund the projects that are identified as being necessary is enormous, and the government is in no way going to be putting up that sort of funds erm so it comes down to money, and particularly in this community care area. but i think if you had all the money that you needed there would still be a problem of the public's attitude. yes, towards — we're getting back towards our original man in the graveyard — yes, i mean i'd like to say that you're saying particularly to reverend flatman what should he or his parishioners be doing to help this man — it's not as easy as saying that somebody individually should be offering him a room in their house because his problems are far more manifold and deep seated than that. could i interrupt yes, martin flatman. indeed, we have tried to offer him accommodation erm to help him, to offer him a deposit erm for a room. we've tried all sorts of things erm and we've erm sort of erm included erm lesley's elmore support team has come and talked to him and tried to support him as well, so over the years we have done all sorts of things to try and support him, as i have to try and support all sorts of people. i mean we support the porch financially and with people going to work there precisely for the same reason. and then of course i, like many vicars, have, you know, literally hundreds of people with different problems coming to the door. i don't know how many of them are genuine, or how many of them are not genuine, and i have to deal with them over and over again. i mean i had two yesterday erm and it goes on and on and on and erm i just feel that erm it's unfair of anybody to say that the church isn't doing anything. i think i would go along with lesley and say that there comes a point where erm government initiatives need to be taken. we need to be dealing with the whole thing as a community, as a society. but can i come back in there a bit. i think it's lesley dewhurst. it's a terrible mistake just to say that the government's fault and they should give us more money. mhm of course, erm there's a lot more individual responsibility is needed than that, but it's too simplistic to say that that erm to smile upon these people who have problems would solve everything erm but erm to make it your own responsibility to to find out more and to find out the ways in which you can help i think is very important and is everybody's responsibility. can i interrupt here? sure. you talk about getting work you talk about getting work and all that sort of thing erm we've offered john, at one point, that if he did a bit of clearing up in the churchyard erm that he would be given a small amount of money. ‘how much?’ i said ‘well it won't be a lot.’ ‘well, i shall want five quid a day if i do it.’ i said ‘well, i'm sorry, you won't get it, but wouldn't it be helpful if you did that’. no, he will not. he'll come from the porch, he brings his paper bags, his cups that he has for his drinks, and he'll leave them there. ‘john, will you move them?’ ‘why should i?’ and you go and move them after him. you know, it's all very well to put the blame on everybody else, but you try and try and try. you bend over backwards. the vicar's tried i don't know how many times to talk to him, offer him this and that, but he won't have it. i think, bill, pauline's expressing the frustration that we feel, that as david was saying earlier, as christians we feel particularly that we are called to serve people like this in great trouble, and yet sometimes you think, you know, however many times i try erm there seems to be many people for whom erm all my effort gets nowhere, and i feel that things are getting worse in society and one feels more and more helpless and hopeless, and therefore there's a kind of frustration erm that builds up here erm that's right. about the whole problem and what to do about it. yeah, i'd just like to chip in, bill, if i might. yes. david brian, curate at christ church in abingdon. i think there's dangers in some of the things you're saying. you may be kind of blackmailing people to perhaps indiscriminately offer hospitality. i am particularly conscious of students in oxford. when i worked at st. aldate's we had a lot of these sort of characters on the edge of things, and erm they used to play very much upon the students' consciences and i think i'm just concerned that, you know, there aren't people out there listening who will open their homes up indiscriminately. it's quite a brave thing to invite somebody like this into your home. for example, there was a chap i knew who was in simon house and the rules of the house are that you've got to stay off the drink, and unfortunately he had a slip and went back on it. now i took him into my home, it was an extremely costly thing to do, and eventually we got him into the chiltern clinic. now i was a trained worker, and it was still very demanding, and it was quite a costly commitment for my wife and my two children, so i think we're i think one's got to be very careful. i think yes there may well be an apathy and one should challenge that, but we don't want people to be unwise with their love and compassion. there are people out there who've got problems that are bigger than the average household can deal with and erm i think, therefore, we're looking for more institutionalized forms of help and folks like this particular character — i almost said his name — almost need to be made to accept that kind of help. erm unfortunately, it might sound extremely erm severe, but i can think of a number of people i've met in my experience as a pastor who really and frankly could not help themselves and need to be treated almost like children again and made to receive help, and there are quite number of those sort of characters, unfortunately, on the streets of oxford. but they're not the only ones, by the way, i'm also concerned about the fact that more and more young people seem to be in this syndrome and i've a feeling that that comes down not just to government things, but also to the problems in the family as a whole. children leaving home because they've been abused physically or sexually erm or verbally erm the breakdown in the quality of family life has also got something to do with all this business and that has got to be addressed as well, and money won't change that. there has got to to be some genuine changes in our erm willingness to work hard at our family life and not to give in easily at the challenges that so often break our homes up. yeah, well lesley dewhurst, do you think that people should be forced into behaving in certain ways? i've got a lot of respect for the mental health act of 1983. i think when you're talking about forcing people into doing things erm i think you're getting into the bounds of that sort of the mental health act area yes. erm i have had to do in my work quite a lot of work coming up against that act, so to speak. people i have worked with i've identified as having problems that i can see some sort solution to in terms, for instance, of hospital treatment erm at times i've been unable to erm to do that because the act is very difficult to work round erm and in retrospect i'm very ‘by being difficult to work around’— what do you mean? you can't actually force somebody to accept treatment unless they fall into certain categories erm and those categories are very small erm so you would like them larger? no, what i'm saying is erm that having looked at each individual case that i've sometimes felt frustrated about, i've been glad that they aren't larger for the sake of coming down to human rights. for if they were larger it would be quite frightening, i think, the implications. yes, indeed. the basic guidelines is erm if somebody is a danger to themselves or other people then perhaps there is some way of helping them with an enforced medication or hospital treatment. now that's quite difficult to apply, and quite rightly so i feel. but, but, but i think that the reverend david brian was saying something a little bit erm more direct and more overarching than dealing only with those people that you're talking about, weren't you, david? well, yes, i mean i can remember having a friend in oxford who was schizophrenic and to be quite frank he needed to be certified and we could not get him to go to the doctors, and when he did he told sufficient stories that the doctor home with eye drops because he was seeing things. i mean that was frustrating, and i just felt totally helpless. i take on board everything that lesley said, but i still feel in my heart that there are times when you're dealing with people who just need to be treated almost like a child again for a while and maybe maybe it's a good place where the legislation leaves it, better than going to a sort of situation where healthy people might get pushed into asylums or whatever, but somehow i'm not totally happy with where we are. mhm well i just want to look at you people now. we've talked about the man in the cemetery, the graveyard, and we've talked about other people coming into the drop in centre and their sense of anger, but what about your sense of anger? how about you, lesley dewhurst, you're working with these people who are difficult to place. i mean it's extremely frustrating for you. what does this bring up in your feelings? i mean are you kicking out at what you see are the injustices, at the government, or at people who are responding, in your view, wrongly and inappropriately? i mean how do you contain your feelings on this? i often don't. erm and in some ways coming on a programme like this, or finding other ways to make your views be heard is erm i think very important in a way which me and my colleagues try to do something about the anger that we're feeling. erm there it is very difficult, all the cases we work with are fairly miscellaneous, so therefore have very individual problems, you know, that are different every time, so the anger is going to be different, but we come down to a lot of fundamental erm similarities erm often to do with bureaucracy and structures erm which people just don't fit into, you can't force people to fit into boxes. mhm and sister jenny. how about all the work you do must bring you right up against a lot of raw emotion. what about your own emotion? yes, i feel very anxious and very frustrated a lot of the time. i mean we're just giving a little bit of temporary relief in a situation which just seems to be getting worse and worse. erm i think like david, and lesley well i mean i think like everyone here, that it is the general attitudes of society that you don't stick with problems and work them through, that family life is breaking up. we see an incredible number of young people, and it worries me immensely that these are people at sixteen who've been chucked out of their homes, and they are being pushed down by bureaucracy, that they are being penalised for leaving home at sixteen when it is not their own fault, it is the fault of well it is the result of family breakdown that they are being pushed out. erm i would like to plug a book — i hope this is allowed — but i've got something called ‘the other oxford story, young homelessness’. it's produced by oxford housing aid, and it's available from them for two pounds. this breaks down very clearly indeed what the problems are of young people. it's easy to look at these young hooligans on the street, as they are perceived by so many, without understanding why they are like it, and i think it would help everyone to understand, and maybe we could have some action to work towards supplying the need for these youngsters, because i belief if something could be done for them when they're sixteen and just starting out on this erm sort of sub-culture life that they get into so quickly, if people could give them maximum help at this stage then they could grow into being responsible erm satisfied adults. you know, they are very talented many of them. they have many gifts and all they want is people to encourage them. it's an indictment on our society that the porch is regarded as their home, and we're only open for five hours a day, and yet they regard us as their family, and what we the servers are for them is the parents that they lack. you could say that with almost everybody who comes martin flatman. with trouble. i mean i have a lot of people come to the vicarage and the churchyard, particularly people who have got alcohol problems. what amazes me is how often they'll say to me ‘thank you very much for treating me like a human being’ because however drunk they are in the churchyard i always believe that you're much more likely to get somewhere with somebody if you are polite and kind to them and treat them like a real human being, and you can get into all sorts of fascinating conversations with these people even when they are fairly drunk, because actually they are real human beings, they aren't awful people. they are usually not actually very frightening once you get to know them. they're people who are pathetic, who are sad, who have had an awful lot of knocks in life and i often think that one of the things that everybody in society could do is actually talk to them a bit more . it can be sometimes very difficult and frustrating, and there are really difficult people, but there are a lot of people who are dismissed and and not treated as humans at all. can i interrupt here? yes, indeed. that's erm pauline. just one little point. when i see them in the church i always talk to them and i said ‘look have you got bottles?’ and sometimes they'll say yes and sometimes they'll say no. but there were five of them there one day in the porch and when they saw me they gathered up their bottles and began to go, except one. so i say erm ‘hey, what about you?’, so he said ‘i want to go into the church and pray and ask to be forgiven’. so i said ‘yes, well you do that. no, not with your bag, i'll take that with your bottles.’ ‘you won't lose it, will you?’ i said ‘no’. so i watched him. he went down . he crossed himself. he said his prayers, as it seemed quite genuinely, right out loud. he came back. he said ‘i feel better now. can i have my bag back?’ i said ‘yes, go on off with it’, and off he went. erm a couple of weeks ago two came in and i said ‘oh, i was just going to lock up the screen’. ‘oh, be an angel and let us come in.’ i said ‘all right’. so they came in and erm i didn't take much notice. i was working and all of a sudden and one the woman began to sing rock of ages in a loud voice and then the man joined in and i sort of thought i heard sort of and i thought oh, they've got a bottle which they've taken out of their pockets which they were passing from side to side. so i said ‘now, come off it now, you said you hadn't got any bottles’. ‘oh, we're just having a slurp.’ then they went on, so i said ‘look i think it's time you went now’. ‘oh, you're an angel.’ but if you talk to them nicely you can which we mostly do. just now and again when they do get, you know, just past you, you just have to say now look go or else i'm going to call the police, and they go. but mostly you can get round it, and i quite enjoy having a got with them . well, david brian, what sort of erm emotions does this these experiences dredge up in you? i mean is it a sense of anger? how do you keep going? well at times i feel like erm you're dealing with things that are just totally beyond you and you feel as if you're sinking and feel totally helpless. yes, i do feel angry. erm i don't think our culture is the worst that's ever been and i think there's a tendency sometimes to try to sort of overstate that. i think if you go back a hundred years the problems in british culture were much worse, but nonetheless i do think there's a tremendous arrogance around in modern so-called civilized britain, and particularly when they talk about the ancient civilization of israel, i just think that they were a far more humane nation than we are. erm it's very interesting that in the old testament there's no legislation about homelessness at all, which indicates it wasn't a problem, and i suspect that this was for two reasons. one because the nation was sort of a people who had seen themselves homeless from these start and god had given them a home so they took special care of sojourners and aliens, and secondly, i think, because they had an enlightened attitude towards debt. erm debt was something debt is a major cause of homelessness and i think it will be increasingly so, especially as folk find it very hard to either pay their rents or mortgages. in israel if you got in debt you made yourself a voluntary slave for six years to the person you owed money to, a form of community service, and then you were set free after six years and your debts cancelled and you were given a new start in life. now, there are a lot of aspects of israelite society i wouldn't identify with, like stoning delinquents, but that is an aspect i think we could learn from, and i do think that the extended family is something i miss, i yearn for. i've come from a village background actually, and homelessness wasn't a major problem in our villages because a lot of these sorts of characters somehow were adopted by the community. someone would either find them a caravan in the garden and or a flat or something, but there was a sense in which the community made sure that that kind of person was at least taken care of. maybe they did overdrink and so on and so forth, but nevertheless there was always a shelter. it seems that the city, with more of it actually, copies with it less, but i think that concept of the extended family is something i yearn for. i feel angry that that's missing. well i want to move on now to a caller. hello, patricia. hello. you're calling from chipping norton? that's right, yes. your views. erm it was the lady that talked earlier, and evidently in church thou shalt not smoke. it just amazed me. i don't know if you realize the temperatures there have been, anywhere. i work in chipping norton at the presbytery and erm it just amazed me that she could tell someone not to smoke. anyone that's travelling, and i prefer to call them travellers rather than tramps or anything else, but anywhere they can creep in that's great, i think. so you think that it would be inappropriate to say look this is a particular place set aside, a lot of people will use this and they don't want to come in here the majority don't want to come in and breathe cigarette smoke, so don't smoke. you think that's wrong? did jesus christ ever say thou shalt not smoke? well, i don't know if marlborough tobacco was around in the time of jesus christ, but erm i think if jesus christ had the second coming today one of the first things he would condemn is this week that is the cause of death and destruction throughout the world, and if he wouldn't condemn that i would certainly be a bit dismayed. yeah, well that's terrific, but when people have not got anything, they've got no money, they've got not family, they've chosen to cut theirselves off, where do they creep in? well it's a good question. martin flatman. well, they can come in to the church, as many of them do, erm and i just say to them well, you know, do you respect this place and fine, it's a place where we don't chuck anybody out who comes into church for all sorts of reasons during the day when the church is open, you know, people come in, and there are many people like the ones we've been talking about, who are in desperate need, and we just ask them to respect certain fairly mild rules they can always go out in the churchyard and smoke, but in the building itself we say no smoking and no drinking. oh i see, yes, that's terrific. you don't like that? no, i don't. i don't know how to get through to people like that, i really don't. i mean the chap it's from a personal experience if you were to come down the cowley road — i invite you to come down and and come and see the situation, because, you know, if i said okay anyone can smoke or drink in the church or churchyard in saint mary and john, the building would be full, not full literally, but we'd have people all day in there smoking and drinking and there would be nowhere quiet for people to pray. but the same kind of people, very often, who are in trouble, are the ones who want somewhere quiet and peaceful where they can be alone with god and they can pray, and so in a sense it's not a matter of turn them out of the church, it's a matter of of encouraging them to use the church building in particular ways. but it's also true, is it not, martin, that you make the rules up? excuse me. erm i think it's also true to say that if they came on sunday and turned into the church hall for coffee and tea, they can smoke in there. oh yeah. so i don't think that we're turning them away, i think it's just in church that it's probably not the most appropriate place to have lots of smoke. i've seen it at closed hand. i've seen a chap turned out on the road last friday. i worried to death about him. i was friends with him for a week and he was very eloquent. he was evidently very well educated, and he was just turned out on the road, and i don't know where he is now. well, i think you're you're putting your finger on the issue that we brought up at the very beginning about this man in the churchyard. he's in a sense living there is in indictment of an attitude and the love and the care that the church and a society that proclaims to be civilized has for itself, and i think we'll have to leave it there. but thanks very much indeed, patricia from chipping norton, and also thanks to my guests; the reverend martin flatman, the vicar at saints mary and john church in the cowley road; to pauline dungate well, i don't know how to describe you except as a wonderful woman; reverend david brian, the curate at christ church in abingdon; sister jenny, who runs the porch, a drop in centre for the homeless in the cowley road area; and lesley dewhurst from the support group elmore. that's it from me, bill heine. thanks for joining us. goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today we'll be looking at gipsy sites in the oxfordshire area. we know that there's one gipsy site around wheatley that has been approved by the oxfordshire county council and that now awaits the comment of the south oxfordshire district councillors. also, there are three sites that have been put up for public consultation by the gipsy working party and that's rockhill farm at chipping norton, the airfield at chiltern near burford, and standlake. well perhaps you have points of view on these. i'd like to hear your views if you'd like to share them with me. the number to ring is oxford three one one one one one. but right now i'm joined by three city county councillors. bob morgan is from the liberal democrats. peter audley miller is from the conservatives, and margaret mckenzie is from the labour side. they're all on the gipsy working party and speak for their different groups on the county council about these issues of gipsy sites. john hunt is with me. he's from the chipping norton anti-gipsy campaign, and i'll also be talking with henry from standlake about his views on gipsies out there in that village. but first of all the general overview of this issue of gipsies. bob morgan, why is it that whenever the word gipsy comes up there's so much antagonism and interest? why do people seem to be so anti-gipsy to start out with? i don't know, bill, the major problem that we do find is that the gipsies produce the most emotive response of any matter which we talk about on the county council. erm i think it's really encouraged by the fact that the erm gipsy sites which one sees around the county at the present moment because there is very little control over them, are most unsightly and do considerable damage to the countryside, and people do not wish this to happen in their own area. well are you suggesting that the gipsies are their own worst enemies when it comes to advertising their cause. oh, i think without a doubt they are. i think that they are erm unfortunately erm affected by any event which happens in an area in which they happen to be. they are very often blamed. when they are quite innocent of certain events they are unfortunately blamed by the public in those areas, and they are seen as damaging the countryside and they are seen also they do not encourage the matter when you envisage the fact that they have these erm, for instance, animals — the dogs around their sites which are not noted for their behaviour, and there are many aspects of their behaviour which upset people around. but the major problem is that the sites which we have at the present moment are not controlled, and if we could get proper sites, properly managed, i think you would find that the whole erm picture of a gipsy site in an area would be much better received by the public than it is at the present. well peter audley miller, how do you think the public responds to the word gipsy? i mean for instance is gipsy a very helpful word. what does it mean? how many groups of people are being labelled by this one word? well i think it's either the experience that people have suffered or prejudice, but erm what really infuriates people i think is the fact that when you talk about gipsies you're no longer talking about the romantic idea of a gipsy caravan, a red gipsy caravan with a horse and little children and dark-eyed girls, the erm conception is all wrong. the travellers now are roughly in three groups. there are the real romanies, who are no menace to anybody. there are then the tinkers, who normally come from ireland and who are engaged in business on a large scale, whether its tarmacking, or metal business, or dealing in furniture and antiques, and the third group who are the drop outs of society who have decided to move around all the time and they don't care where they move from one place to another however much they inconvenience anybody else. the real romanies are no problem, and they could be settled quite easily. the tinkers are a major problem, but i think it could be solved quite easily and the authority is not prepared to do it. what, you think that the issue of siting of having a gipsy site can be solved quite easily. i think it can be solved quite easily. well before you go on the explain how you think it can be solved, i have a problem from what you've already said. you see, you're dividing these people into three different groups. now some of those groups, or one of them at least, is is i think you're saying a very friendly and sociable group and doesn't present many social problems. but what happens if a site gets known as a place where the troublemakers are likely to aim for? then you've got a real hot spot on your hands, don't you? well i don't think that with the romanies there is a problem, because they're right, yes. in very tiny groups. so let's put them aside. so maybe maybe there could be a gipsy site where the romanies wouldn't dare set foot, and it would be lots of other people who would be causing lots of problems. yes. well normally they don't mix. so so the matter doesn't arise. the romanies stick to themselves in their own little groups. oh, i'm not suggesting that these groups, if they come together and mix will cause problems, i'm suggesting that if there is only one kind of person that's attracted to a particular site and that type of person happens to be socially irresponsible, then then you're it's a recipe for disaster, isn't it? well then you've got to depend on the wardening of the site. yes, well all right. how do you think the whole issue can be solved? well i don't happen to believe in public authority sites. i think it's absolutely scandalous the local authority can use government money to the extent of nearly half a million pounds to provide a site for about sixteen caravans, and i don't think it's at all necessary. and if you look at what has happened in oxfordshire to date the figures actually prove that. erm most of the sites, and there are quite a large number of sites in oxfordshire, are privately owned or have been privately subscribed. and are they working well? and they are working. they cause no great problem to anybody, and what ought to happen is that the gipsies and certainly the tinkers ought to be encouraged to buy sites and develop them and police them themselves. they've done it quite successfully at wendlebury. they've done it at cherwell. they've done it in the vale. and well they've certainly tried to make a few private sites out of public car parks in the vale, i know that much. what do you say about that? well that's just enforcing just merely a question of enforcing the law. but if you turned round and said to them all right with the consent of the people and with the consent of the planning authority we will authorize a site, we would get on and provide it, and they wouldn't spend four hundred thousand pounds of the taxpayers money in doing it, and it doesn't stop there because having spent the four hundred thousand pounds you've then got to provide the wardening of the site and the constant maintenance, which is a drain. we don't do it for any other section of society, and these people are not poor. they are quite capable of paying for the resource they want and they want to provide it, but they're just not allowed to do it. well, let's move on the margaret mckenzie. welcome to the programme. you thank you. i wondered if i was going to get a word in edgeways some time. you're from the labour group. i'd like to get your response to what the conservative, peter audley miller, has had to say. i want to go back to your original question that you asked bob morgan, because you were asking him erm why there was a reaction to a gipsy site. all right. and it does seem to me that erm the minute you suggest to a parish council who has already complained about illegal encampments on roadsides and laybys that there is a good site in their patch, there is an immediate reaction, and i am thoroughly convinced that this reaction is based on a fear that is actually based on ignorance, and that we have to remember that travellers of any description — and i don't categorise them like peter does — travellers of any description are human beings. if i treat you decently, bill, you will actually treat me quite nicely. if i spit and scream at you, you are entitled to react, aren't you? and that's what happens with gipsies. if they are treated as though they were not quite like other human beings erm then they behave not quite like human beings. we actually have a responsibility to two lots of people that peter defined. erm the old-fashioned romany gipsy, about whom we all have romantic ideas that are well out of date, to tinkers whether they are irish or scots. we have no responsibility for what he called the hippy drop outs, who call themselves new age travellers. we do not have to provide sites for them, but we may have to very shortly because they themselves are going to the high court to seek legal definition of their status and their due. erm peter is not right about the vale and the sites that are provided in the vale. there are two public sites in the vale, one that has been at east challow since the year dot and people have forgotten actually exist. there's another public site at hinksey hill, which is very new, where they've settled well, and there is about to be a private site out at frilford, and that site will allow the vale to be designated and that means that people who are encamped illegally in laybys and bridleways and grass verges can be moved on much more quickly than they can at the moment erm and if we're not careful they'll all be moving into west oxfordshire. why will they all be moving over there? because the city is designated, erm cherwell district is designated, south oxford is on the verge of being designated, like the vale, and the only undesignated district in the county will be west oxfordshire. on top of that, the other county councils surrounding us are, if they're not wholly designated, the district immediately on our boundaries will be designated before the end of the year. and the distinction between a designated are and one that is not designated rests on what? if you are a designated area you have virtually instant powers of moving illegal encampments on. if you are not a designated area, then you have to go through the due process of court orders and notices and move out in twenty eight days or something, you know, it's a long, expensive process, which does not have to take place when a district is designated. mhm right, well i'm also joined by john hunt from chipping norton. john hunt, welcome to the programme. thank you, bill. you're not a councillor, you're just an ordinary man in the street, but you've had some well some run-ins, as it were, with some problems up there in chipping norton. could you tell us about that. that's perfectly true, bill. now let me just correct you on your introduction originally. we're not anti-gipsy as such in chipping norton. we're anti the proposed rockhill site. now, just over two years ago, when it was first mooted that the rockhill site would become a permanent gipsy site, we did then erm conduct erm interviews in the town, and we interviewed something like two and a half thousand people, of which ninety five per cent said that they were against a site in that particular place. we also gave other reasons at the time, erm principally the road, because the access fronting onto the a forty four there by the proposed site, there'd been a number of accidents and during the consultation period there were actually two people killed bang opposite the proposed entrance to that site at swingswang. well let's forget about that, let's forget about the two thousand odd people who've said no, let's forget about the fact that there were these accidents in that road, because no we've got the m forty the a forty four — well the a thirty four as it was — has been relieved of a lot of traffic and from a point of view from the gipsy working party committee they may well feel that they are even more entitled to go ahead with this site. now i don't agree with that, and i'll tell you why. because something has come to my mind only during the past few days, when i learnt that the gipsy working party by five votes to four had recommended that the rockhill site go forward for consultation. now let's look at chipping norton overall. it's not going to stand still forever. now since we first looked into this erm rockhill site over two years ago, two things have happened. firstly, we've had a feasibility study on as to what should happen to chipping norton, and it has been proposed that it should develop eastwards and this would embrace the land which is owned by the county council, being the former being the existing county council smallholdings at fowler's barn and tank farm, and also the william fowler allotments, and it's suggested that a relief road and ring road will run from the a three six one burford road to link up with the a forty four somewhere not far removed from swingswang. now that is bang opposite where they're proposing to put this rockhill site. also, the land which stretches back to rockhill farm from swingswang on the opposite side of that road is all part and parcel of the county council smallholdings, and only two fields away they sold off a piece of land a few years ago which has now been developed on to the frontage of the banbury road, which is in fact the cromwell business park. so there you have this hi-tech industry coming into chipping norton. you have the county council sitting on an absolute goldmine as far as that land's concerned. now no level headed business man in his right senses would recommend that they dispose of any part of it for a temporary, permanent gipsy site or whatever you like to call it. mhm that land is extremely valuable, and what's more i would suggest that the three people here at the table with me go back to the property committee, to which they belong. no i don't. right, correction, one lady doesn't, but those who do go back to the property committee and i would say that erm if this were to happen, and the county council were to make it a permanent site in that particular position, we could lay a charge of gross negligence, or even mis-appropriation of assets. there's a moral issue here as well. well, bob that's peter audley miller, go ahead. there's a moral issue. i sit in two different capacities. one as a member of the gipsy working party and another as the spokesman for property. the county council owns smallholdings. now any normal landlord, faced with the imposition of a site on one of his tenant farms, would do his utmost to resist it. why? because it disturbs the far. naturally it disturbs the farm. and because it is socially undesirable? that's nonsense. no, not because peter, come on. i'm sorry, things do not go together. here in chipping norton we've told the farmer to diversify. we've got him breeding pheasants and partridges and now we're proposing a gipsy site. i just don't think the two things match, but over and above that it's totally unnecessary and nobody would put a gipsy site on one of the nicest avenues leading into a town. merely providing the site will involve the destruction of two trees, which are part of the avenue, but that doesn't matter to the county council because erm they're not responsible, they can override a tree preservation order and i think this just is morally wrong. what, to take two trees away when you're dealing with people? when they're part of an avenue. oh, come off it. the reason the county council has picked on tank farm is purely because it owns it and it's the easiest way out. no, that's absolutely wrong. you're getting there are thousands of acres we've picked on tank farm for the simple reason i thought we'd picked on rockhill farm. on rockhill farm. on rockhill farm because the land has already been the farmer has already been compensated by the addition of extra land so that we can easily accommodate a gipsy site in that particular spot. to talk about it being at the entrance to an avenue to chipping norton is a gross exaggeration. there is a road going forward past some very attractive trees. have you finished? no. you are putting two trees ahead of people because i'm going to finish them. and you've got an absolute useless argument. you know what really worries me about this is that early on you said that tinkers deal in antiques, and i'm beginning to wonder whether you, as antique dealer, have got a somewhat of an interest in this matter and maybe we should be taking care of you as a possible tenant of one of our sites, but this this is a typical example of all the thin, unreasonable excuses being put up to a party that's trying to deal with something. to talk about the potential of a land of a road bypass around and it's affecting it is i don't know how far into the future that's planned, but believe me it's way, way in the future and i doubt very much if that's going to happen at all. what you're doing is setting up a resistance here for a perfectly adequate site in an area where we desperately need a site for people, and what you offer us as a compensation, something in the future in terms of a bypass and two trees coming down, and on the basis of that we're supposed to stop the whole deal. this bypass is a piece of excruciatingly new information. you approach chipping norton along this road, a straight road that goes into chipping norton. it is a pleasant road that has got trees on either side, i will admit that, but i cannot allow anybody to say the loss of two trees, which will be replaced somewhere else, is of greater importance than he decent habitation of a group of human beings that is not what i'm saying. who are at the moment living in laybys and car parks, without water, without electricity and, in some cases, without waste disposal. now i can understand that feelings of the people of chipping norton. i can understand the feelings of any community that when it's suggested there should be a gipsy site. i go back to what i say in the beginning. it is actually fear based on ignorance that gipsies are human beings. that this is a big paddock, and in the bottom of the right hand corner, if you stand on the road looking at it, there is a triangle of land that is tucked away, that you can hardly see from the roadside, that in my opinion is sufficiently secluded and sufficiently near to other services to allow us to go out to consultation. it's after the consultation has taken place that we will make a decision, and we will be listening during that consultation to what all the people of chipping norton say. i hope that in the time of the consultation they actually begin to take on board the fact that we're talking about human beings. yes. the other thing is we had a lengthy meeting with the district council a couple of days before the gipsy working party. somebody made some suggestion that this was prime development land. the district council said nothing about bypasses and they actually pooh-poohed that this piece of ground would be developed because of it's value as an entrance to chipping norton. tell me, margaret john hunt from chipping norton. once you've got these gipsies on your permanent site, are they going to be liable to the community charge? yes, they will be. they are? they will pay their poll tax, they'll pay for their electricity, they'll pay for their water, they'll pay for the sewage disposal and, what is more, they will pay rent. so what sort of rent were they paying prior to the introduction of the community charge under the old rating system? they're not paying anything at the moment on laybys. no, these who are on permanent sites elsewhere. i'm talking of kent, sussex they were paying rent and rates. any idea how much any idea how much that was? don't ask me to pluck figures out of the air, but it was a reasonable rent, and they were paying for the rates, and their electricity, and their water supply, and their sewage disposal, on permanent sites. yes, but they actually pay a much as any other human being does, given the standard of the property. fair enough. bill, can we look at the record peter audley miller from the conservative side. the record of the county council. there was a public enquiry recently, and i've got the inspector's report here, and in his report he says the council claims to have adopted a positive approach towards gipsy site provision, but in my judgement there is no tangible evidence whatsoever of this. now i go on the tell you on sites, oxford city now, cherwell eighty five private sites, public authority sites now. west oxford, thirty three private sites, sixteen pitches you're talking about pitches, aren't you, not sites? thirty three private pitches, possible sixteen provision by the county council. s o d c twenty one private sites. west oxon, twenty three private sites, ten unauthorized sites. in actual fact, the county council has only provided the heyford site to date. it's in the process of providing one at benson, and it only provided the heyford site because it had done a deal with the city council over land and that are you talking about heyford or hinksey? hinksey hill. because heyford's a long way from hinksey. well, hinksey hill. the hinksey hill site. that was only provided in exchange, which left the city with no caravan site at all. in other words, i've totted it up, there are at least two hundred and twenty private sites pitches. pitches within the county and there are sixteen at the moment provided by the local authority. no, there are a lot more than sixteen. no, there are not. they never provided any sandford they took over, challow they took over, were private sites, they were provided by the private, and in cherwell certainly they were all provided by private. but that's hardly surprising, peter. when your party was in power they barely provided one pitch in the whole of the county i'm sorry in twenty odd years virtually. we believe in you're talking round and you've suddenly become a convert to the private site because it's the only way that you can find that your party can oppose the establishment of proper and properly managed gipsy sites in oxfordshire. you fought and fought against the introduction. you and your group have fought against the introduction, and what's happened now? we've now got warwickshire, northamptonshire, applying for designation. we've got buckinghamshire with designation. we've got wiltshire with designation. the only county on our border without it is gloucestershire and we've got one, two, or three areas of our three of our districts, of which two are just poised to get designation, and you're now beginning to scream and you and your group are beginning to scream about west oxfordshire and its a situation that you have contributed to. i can remember i've been on this gipsy working party since you lost control of this council for the last five years and you've fought tooth and nail all the way down the line to resist every gipsy site that came in you've used every manoeuvre that you could possibly do to resist it. all i can say i think we've got and we have done something about it, grasped the mettle, and i believe that in a short while we're going to solve this problem, and it won't be thanks to you and the conservative party. i think the public i think the public margaret mckenzie. has got to remember that a duty was put upon the county councils of great britain in nineteen sixty eight to provide sites for gipsies, and here were are in nineteen ninety one — that's damn near thirty years further on, and we're still looking for sites to get the county designated. counties are designated all over the south. i have gipies coming up from somerset into my county division because they have been moved on because somerset is designated. now somerset is a long way away, but the first stopping place that they can find where they will be left undisturbed for a few days is in the vale, and very shortly the vale will be designated, so they'll have to travel even further into west oxford, which is going to be, if we're not careful, the only undesignated district in the whole of the south of england, and i wouldn't want to be a resident of west oxford in these circumstances. peter must not talk about erm the provision that has been made. he must not imply that the conservative group have been working actively hard and long and finding sites. i was last on the county council between nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty five, and i was on the gipsy working party at that time, and nothing happened except scandalous public meetings where officers were, were allowed to be crucified by conservative chairpersons and not a site appeared, public or private. mhm i'm fascinated by the political innuendo, but it still doesn't make sense. it's not innuendo, it's fact. the only sites that have been provided in the last six years is one at hinksey hill, nothing else. there is one underway at benson, five pitches. the sites that have been provided have been provided by local private enterprise. there is one underway at wheatley. it's already been through the planning department, our planning department. it has our full approval. it has been submitted to the south oxfordshire district council full planning committee and has been approved, and it is now going down to the south oxfordshire district committee, but i don't quite why it's going after it's already been approved by planning, but it's with the sub-committee and one anticipates that today, when they're meeting that sub-committee will come back and will inform us that south oxfordshire are in support of this. are you going to say now that you're not in support of wheatley? most certainly i'm not. i think the behaviour of the county council you've been encouraging it up to now, on a few occasions up to now. no, i haven't, i think the this is typical of the behaviour of your group, peter. peter audley miller. i think the county council's behaviour over the wheatley site is positively immoral. they have used that site themselves, without planning permission, for something like twenty years. they've allowed other industrial sites on it, without planning permission. they have positively refused to take enforcement order. they are not even taking enforcement order now. they've got it suspended. well have they withdrawn one of their submissions to south oxfordshire that they've tried to claim that they were using it over the last twelve years and it has now been withdrawn because they know very well that their claim to south oxfordshire cannot be justified about the use. i don't think the internal wranglings erm of, of members of the county council are actually of any great interest to members of the public. well, i'm not so sure about that. some people might find this quite fascinating. i do. henry's on the line. hello, henry. well i find this erm internal wrangling fascinating. these two guys are meant to be on a gipsy working party, finding somewhere for the gipsies to live, and all they can do is argue about it. erm i mean it's erm incredible. these people are being told they can't have anywhere to live because two trees are going to be cut down, which is a real shame. i mean this is that is yes. henry, you live in standlake? yes. now standlake is one of the sites that is now out for consultation. yes. this is right. this is correct. what are your views on that? well, i'm quite happy for gipsies to come and live here. there's been a lot of people in the village signing a petition and erm shouting about, but these people are going to come and, as the lady has said, they are going to pay for their erm rent, they're going to pay their poll tax, they're going to be obliged by the law to pay their poll tax. they won't be able to just move on because their permanent pitches, what they call permanent pitches which i'm not sure exactly what it is, but that is what they're called, so presumably i mean they're not going to be able to move on all of a sudden. these sites are going to be warden run with proper sanitation and all the rest of it, so i don't see any problem at all. i don't see any problem with these people coming to live here at all. well again, henry. well all right. i think that john hunt has a word from chipping norton. yes, bill, can i come back to chipping norton because that's, that's who i'm really interested in as you know. erm peter over the road there's trying to keep it away from wheatley erm and we're not quite happy about what's going on in chipping norton. now both the west oxfordshire district council and the chipping norton parish council erm voted overwhelmingly against this proposed scheme, and the fact that they've put these recommendations to the county council erm can i ask the three county councillors present erm it means nothing at all from your point of view? oh yes it does. i mean what you have to remember is that we have not made a decision about rockhill farm. i don't know about these two men, but i have used my best judgement on rockhill farm. the original site right at the entrance of swingswang lane was highly unsuitable. i don't think the proposed new site is unsuitable. erm i voted for it to go out to consultation, but i haven't yet voted that it will be a site, and i will take the representations of everybody into consideration before i make up my mind. that's what's called democracy. i don't see that we're doing anybody any harm, any damage, any anything, by simply saying we'll go out and consult the people of chipping norton about this new site that we found at rockhill. that's all we're doing. let's talk about consultation. peter audley miller from the conservatives. and let's talk about the wheatley site. the wheatley site actually fulfils the criteria of the gipsy working party. you're quite right. i'm not arguing about that at all, but the people of wheatley have a right to the same protection that everybody else has under the planning axe. now what has happened here is that on the previous public enquiry over the tetsworth site, tetsworth, great milton and various other parish councils have the defence of producing sites which they think are appropriate or better than their own site, and they mentioned wheatley. the inspector took this up and when he resolved the enquiry on tetsworth and said it wasn't a suitable site, he said look again at wheatley. now what has happened? because the county council realize now that they're a little bit in advance of everybody and because the district council feel that they can get designation by supporting this and not voting against it, the chances are that wheatley is going to be totally deprived of a public enquiry, which practically every other site is guaranteed. the only way we can get a public enquiry into this site is if the land owner resists the actual purchase and the enquiry is into the compulsory purchase order. now i think that is unjust. i think there should be a public enquiry and everybody should be able to be represented and put their own views. well a lot of people have very strong feelings about the wheatley issue, what about shilton, that's another designated site. brenda, you live in shilton, what are your views? well actually i live just outside shilton. erm they keep saying that it's shilton airfield, actually it's not on the airfield at all— as you will know, mr. hayworth's got planning permission for a golf course on the airfield — it's scrubs lane, shilton, and actually they've already the council have already turned down two applications for caravan sites there anyway erm because it's unsuitable and yet they think that they you know that it's going to be suitable for gipsies to live down there. i don't know what the councillors think about that . well let's get bob morgan's response. bob morgan from the liberal democrats. well i don't fully i don't think we turned down this particular site in the shilton area before. erm actually i don't mean for a gipsy site it's sort of two people have applied to have ordinary caravans there, like holiday caravans, etc. oh. and it's been turned down twice. yes, but unfortunately it's a different set of rules as regards the planning applications made by people for erm either caravans for residential purposes or for leisure purposes as those which were directed to use when we are judging a gipsy site erm as such. the erm gipies do have a dispensation under the planning laws to have their sites and their pitches located in areas where you would not be able to normally get residential erm planning applications approved. the sites were actually turned down on highways, not erm, you know, any other reason. i can understand that. because the road wasn't suitable. mhm the shilton dip is pretty horrifying. and where they have to come out onto the road before the shilton dip, where they actually come from scrubs lane onto the road, it's on a right angle bend and, you know, we've had several mishaps down there. there have been three accidents this year on the shilton dip, but there are it's a long time since there has been an accident. and there's no accident record at all in the of coming out where this site is. no, because they are not reported. they are minor ones. yes, that's the point, bob. if you get more if you get all these i mean let's be honest that they're going to have lorries etc. we know that most of them they're not actually gipsies, they're scrap dealers, and they've all got lorries etc. if we're going to have those in and out there then you are going to get accidents. the people who margaret mackenzie from labour. if shilton is actually approved as a gipsy site, the people who will be going in there are the people who are at the moment living on the laybys and on the green lanes in the surrounding countryside. i think, personally, the site itself is fine because it's well away from anywhere. it's not going to bother anybody. i know that the county surveyor has reservations about the access. i have reservations myself about the access at shilton dip, but i would suggest to the county surveyor that if shilton dip is dangerous for a potential site of gipsies, then it's just as dangerous for the people who live in shilton right now. it's a horrifying entrance to a rather nice village. and the site on the airfield is well, well away from the village and none of you will actually see it. i beg to differ . i mean my house is actually right next to it and also the people that live at shilton edge farm erm and you can see it from the airfield or the kencot road. it stands out like a sore thumb. yes, but it will be well screened and, and there will be planting round it and it'll be well fenced. i mean there is it's not right up against somebody else's house. yes, but i want to know, brenda, are you really concerned about the fact that you'll see it, or the fact that these people that you don't particularly like are going to be living near you. actually it's about the way they carry on. they say that they're going to move them from laybys, then haven't got lorries, etc. i didn't say they hadn't got lorries. there's four families living down the bottom of carterton, they've got pick-ups, they've got lorries, they've got their caravans, they've got piles of cars there that they're ripping to pieces, they've got dogs. i mean it's all right to say if you're nice to them they'll be nice to you erm it should come the other way round, that they should sort of respect other people's property. but, brenda, can i interrupt? bob morgan from the liberal democrats. can i interrupt and say at the moment that there's a vast difference between a site which is set up indiscriminately on some layby somewhere with no direction or control and no facilities there, and the sort of the thing that we're talking about. we're talking about taking a site, laying out pitches in there, providing all the normal amenities — water, drainage, etc. and so on, electricity — and managing it. and these people will pay a rent for it and they will pay all the proper taxes and they will be effectively staying with the rules which are imposed on other people. and it will be a managed site. they will yes, brenda, what do you not be able to have these sort of faults available. brenda, what do you say to the argument that having these sites is basically a means of roping people into the system? is that a good or a bad thing? well they're not going to. i mean you get people like that, they're not going onto a site and pay out money, it's just ridiculous. well, all right, let's get tom's views on this. hello, tom. hello, bill. your views? well i've known gipies ever since i was a young lad many years ago. they used to come out every summer to southmoor, where i lived, to pick the hops and work on the local market garden and erm i agree with whoever said if you treat them right they'll treat you right. i had some very good friends amongst the gipsies. erm but there are not many about now. most of them have moved into houses, you know, and become like us. well i think that's one of the issues. a caller rang in and wanted to know if gipsies are travellers why do they need a permanent site. surely they'll no longer be travellers then. they don't like to stay in one place, i don't think. mhm they are travellers as such. but the gentleman that said there are three categories, like travellers, gipsies and drop outs, he was right. that was a good point. bill, the yes, peter audley miller. the problem is just how you actually erm go about solving it. it's really simple. the ordinary gipsies are no problem at all. i know in south oxfordshire the landowners would be only too willing to provide odd sites for odd romanies. they are no bother to anybody. when it comes to commercial sites it's entirely different business, because what you're in essence doing is setting up a business park. you're setting up a place for people to live and conduct their business, and the people most able to do that are the gipsies themselves. they've done it very successfully in cherwell, no cost to the ratepayer, no cost to the government, functioning perfectly well, no trouble to anybody because they're all the same type of people. all they need is the planning permission and certainly the landowners will sell them the land, and if we put in stringent rules and regulations then we could control it properly. if the government thinks that they're going to solve the problem by just lashing out four hundred thousand pounds for sixteen pitches, then they are certainly mistaken, because the mere fact of these people's business, whether they're in scrap, whether they're dealing in furniture, means that they must be on the move all the time. they lead a totally different life and we're trying to provide a resource for people that don't want that resource. mhm margaret mackenzie. the gipsies who are on the laybys and the verges of west oxfordshire are people who wish to stay living in caravans. they do not necessarily wish to travel every day of the week. they may like, like the rest of the country, to go off and have their holidays occasionally, but they would like a permanent place on which their caravan can rest. i mean in my own village we have erm which is, which village? sutton courtenay. sutton courtenay. we have several families who are of gipsy descent, whom we forget are gipsies because they are like the rest of us, but there are still gipsies who do not wish to live in houses. susan's on the line. hello, susan. hello. you want to talk about standlake as well? yes, i'm a resident of standlake and erm my husband was on the working party for standlake when this was last proposed. this site well, wait a minute. do you mean that the, the there was a, an anti-gipsy feeling here in the village which was ninety five per cent of the village and erm that was about four years ago? four years, yes. now when standlake was proposed as a possible site then? that's right. yes. and we've been all though this before. i feel it's taxpayers money being wasted yet again, because they're just going over the same ground. that site was turned down four years ago on environmental grounds. nothing has changed. bbont are very interested in it, because there is natural fauna and flora there and the other thing that i think needs to be brought up is the site they are proposing is next door to a leisure park. now standlake has more or less, through the council, been designated as a leisure area. we have lakes with boating yes, it's very nice out there. yes, now i cannot see the logic of allowing all this leisure to catch people to come into standlake for leisure and they put a gipsy site next door to a residential — well, no, not residential, it's a holiday park. all right, thanks very much. let's now go to erm jack. hello, jack. hello. calling from shilton. yes. well that site they're proposing is over my private road. oh yes. and you see there's no permanent fence to the fields and so therefore i could put gates up at that road if i wanted to, but the council has never consulted me about going to look at it, or going over my road. mhm we're going out to consultation on shilton any day now. you can't start making approaches to landowners and other people who live round about until the decision has been made by the working party whether to go out for consultation or not. any minute now, jack, you will be, you will be consulted by the county council. if we find that we have no right of access over that road, that puts paid to shilton. we may negotiate access over that road with you. going back to both standlake and erm wheatley peter audley miller. the county council i full well remember some four years ago made a decision that once a site had been in peril, once a decision was made it shouldn't be brought back into the arena again. ah, but we're finding that this, in fact, happening several times. i'm sorry we can't finish this one up. it will run and run, and i'm sure we'll have more programmes on it, but many thanks to my guests; to bob morgan from the liberal democrats; to peter audley miller from the conservatives; to margaret mackenzie from the labour group on their gipsy working party; and to john hunt from the chipping norton group about the gipsies. that's it from me, bill heine. thanks very much for keeping us company. goodbye. hello and welcome to today's programme. this is john simpson. i'm sitting in for bill heine, who's off for today. our subject is the holiday business. in recent weeks there have been reports that the travel/holiday business has been in disarray. the recession biting into the money into your pocket has reduced future bookings, and you just add to that the fears of terrorist action linked to the gulf war and then the recent bomb blasts and the mortar attack in london. they've all combined to paint a rather bleak picture as far as tourists are concerned. but is it as bad as it sounds? well during this programme i'll be talking with a number of people who are involved in the industry who have their fingers on the pulse of what is commonly known as the tourist industry. they'll give us an up to date assessment of what's been happening, what's being done to reduce the effects of the factors i've just mentioned and, more importantly, how the industry is changing in tune with the changing demand, or lack of it. with me in the studio is stan bowes, who's the head of marketing for the thames and chilterns tourist board, and stan can obviously talk about what's happening in this immediate area, but first of all i'll go to the telephone because waiting to talk to us is michael medleycote, who's the chief executive of the british tourist authority. mr medleycote, welcome to the programme. thank you, john, very much. i think i'm right in saying that this week the government announced that an extra one point six million pounds was being made available for yourselves and the english tourist board to, in an sense, overcome some of the projects, some of the problems that you've been facing. it is indeed. that really goes into two halves. the english tourist board's half of that erm is designed to persuade us, to persuade the british that erm is the year that we should discover britain, this is the year that we should stay at home and take our holidays in the view of everything that's happened, and in view of prices overseas. the other half is for b t a, which is my organization, erm which promotes britain overseas as a tourism destination, and is designed to erm provide reassurance to the overseas consumer, through a high level marketing campaign. we should be able to approach the two million pound mark overseas, i think, with a special campaign that britain is affordable and that travel is safe. how can you go about convincing people that it is a good place, it is affordable and, as you rightly say, that travel — that's the most important thing — that travel is safe. well, there are two jobs to be done. erm the first job is one of reassurance. obviously, after a major international disturbance of this kind, people are concerned about the airways, and the reality of course is that it's erm a damn sight more dangerous to cross the m forty than it is to cross the atlantic. erm and we have to persuade people, really through the medium of, of p r; through good editorials, through the world's press and t v erm that it's safe and then, through the medium of advertising — which is why we've got a lot of extra money — we have to persuade the world that it's affordable. the pound has been very strong recently, particularly in the united states, where they've got a weak dollar, and we have to put over the message that there are tremendous deals to be had erm both in air fares and when you get here in terms of hotel rates erm and in terms of prices of food and so forth. how much of a recession is the tourist industry facing? i mean do you have figures to show that bookings are reduced on previous years? well the recession that the tourist industry faces is really it's sharing it with the world. i mean the erm, the effects of the recession in north america, the great fear of lay offs amongst white collar workers in north america erm began to show itself towards the end of last year, and indeed major corporations were reducing their business travel by cutting back on their travel budgets erm and that was beginning to come through by october/november last year in erm reduced long haul travel. and of course that become overlayed by the gulf situation, but there are clear signs now that the recession has bottomed out but that we're on the way up again and of course as far as erm terrorism and war is concerned, memories are pretty short. people's priorities are pretty hot when it comes to holidays and to vacations, and indeed when it comes to business travel, and i think we can expect to see people coming back pretty quickly. but of course if you're looking at the american market, i mean the opportunities if you're in the states are tremendous, so we do face a lot of competition. there are lot of other destinations. tremendous competition. erm and erm of course a lot of prime destinations are right on america's doorstep. apart from the fact that they have an enormous erm range of domestic attractions and destinations, everywhere from the pacific north west to florida and california, the caribbean is on their doorstep, hawaii is on their doorstep, bermuda. so we really do have to fight fiercely, and to do that, of course, erm one of the things that we do i think most effectively is to bring waves of foreign journalists here to write about how beautiful erm britain is and indeed into your area, into the oxford area, erm we've got the canadian t v crew coming next week, who'll be filming and erm making erm documentary films for canadian t v, which should be screened fairly quickly. we've got french journalists coming in, into the thames valley area, and indeed a japanese group of journalists coming in erm the week after next. oddly by erm, i'm happy to say, even gulf journalists coming back. we've got a group of journalists, twelve journalists, from dubai in bath today and erm some, a wave of journalists coming in from saudi a little later in the month, so everything's happening and there's a erm tremendous amount of activity going on to restimulate the market. i'm just sitting wondering whether the in light of the problems we've had in the gulf, there's no doubt about it the strengthening of the relationship between this country and the states is certainly there for all of us to see, so do you think that'll have a spin off in terms of people wanting to come here and visit us? in marketing terms it's a tremendous card to play erm our marketing line in the states was always ‘we speak your language, a common heritage, a common culture erm almost a common language’ and erm the special relationship really exits at a time like this to a very marked degree, and we shall be playing that for all it's worth, certainly. so we can expect this summer, in your view we can expect to see as many tourists from overseas as we normally do. would you hope to do that? well if you look backwards erm at nineteen eighty six which, although we didn't have war in nineteen eighty six we had a series of horrendous events. we had chernobyl, we had a series of hijackings, we had outrages at athens airport, we had the u s raid on libya by bombers based in britain erm and everybody then erm turned the corners of their mouths down and forecast the end of tourism, that doom is nigh, and what actually happened was that erm by the end of nineteen eighty six we were four point three per cent down in terms of numbers on a record nineteen eighty five. now, we didn't have a recession in nineteen eighty six, but i would suggest that augers rather better than the mongers of gloom and doom would have us believe for nineteen ninety one. well, i have to say, i mean it is a fairly gloomy picture, is it not, with the recession and then the gulf war, which we said both of those there are signs well certainly the war, we hope, is over. the recession — it looks as though there is a glimmer of light, but i was on the continent a couple of three weeks ago when the mortar attack took place at number ten and the reaction of people i met i mean it was much more marked there than it was here, or seemed to be. well can you imagine a more perfect picture story for a newspaper to carry than that? i mean it was superb. there was a man, totally unconnected with the event i think, running away from a flaming van in horseguards parade erm and it was a wonderful picture opportunity for the world's press to carry, but i do think that memories are short from this. we shouldn't understate the effect, but i do think that memories are fairly short. after all, the world, sadly, has grown rather inured to this kind of outrage. i know some people listening to this in this area might say well do we need so many tourists. could you just remind us of what it actually means to the economy of this country. well tourism is now a quarter of all our invisible exports erm overseas tourism erm earned in nineteen ninety erm for us nine and an half billion pounds. that's nine thousand five hundred million pounds, which is about four per cent of our gross domestic product. erm it employs a million and a half people in full time jobs, or full time equivalents. it really is very close to being britain's number one industry, and will be the world's largest industry by the end of this decade and to turn our backs on it, or to be half-hearted about it, erm is, i would suggest, foolish. it's a matter, i think, of managing it properly, of making sure that we minimise any kind of deleterious effect on the environment, that we manage it in such a way that is tolerable and beneficial to ourselves, to our communities wherever we live. michael medleycote, thank you very much indeed for joining us. your very welcome. nice to talk to you. that's michael medleycote, who's the chief executive of the british tourist authority and responsible, as you heard him say, for encouraging people to come and visit this country. very important, but you might well say ‘well, what do we do with them once they're here and, more importantly, what about those of us who live here?’. i'll be talking in a few moments time about aviation travel and the risks and, indeed, the trends that are being reflected at the present time, but erm before we move to that let's just think about those of us who perhaps have decided we won't go abroad. perhaps we decided the risks are too great. with me here in the studio is stan bowes, who is the head of marketing for the thames and chilterns tourist board. stan, as we've just been hearing from michael medleycote, there's a new initiative from the british tourist authority. the same thing, i think, applies to the english tourist board with the other eight hundred thousand pounds extra cash made available by the government. how's that going to be used? this is quite right, john. yes, we are the tourist boards, the national tourist boards which include scotland and ireland (northern ireland) and wales have combined together, and we are going to combine together to produce a high profile advertising and marketing campaign to encourage millions of holidaymakers to make nineteen ninety one the summer to explore britain erm and in a concentrated peak period from the twenty third of march to the twenty eighth of april over eighty five per cent of the u k's adult population will be continuously exposed to the message ‘britain's great’, and i think they will hear it on radio, they will see it on t v, there will large colour supplements and four page advertisements in every popular national newspaper from the sunday times to the sun. what we have, of course, is a great product erm, let's ask our people to explore britain this year. it's got to be their best choice erm it is closer to home, with no worries about overseas travel erm plus the backing of every major tourist board means they're guaranteed quality. they've got inspected and graded accommodation. they've got activities. they've got entertainments. it's all here, so why not spend that holiday at home this year and give a boost to our much needed travel industry and tourism industry in this country? do you actually do you personally expect to see many more people staying at home? i mean i know that's what your aim is, but are you confident that's what's going to happen? yes, i do. there was a trend last year when more people erm stayed at home. i think the industry itself has got it's act together in terms of pricing. there's the often quoted comparison with our compatriots overseas that it's cheaper to go overseas than stay at home, but i think, you know, with the range of accommodation, with the range of holidays now available in this country, i think the industry itself is competing very well and that the more and more people who find that they haven't yet discovered britain will do so this year. because i think there has been a trend, has there not, in recent years where people tend to take a main holiday perhaps on the continent and then have a second holiday in this country. this has been the most fastest growing part of the holiday taking in this country over the past two or three years and i'm hoping it will continue and so does our industry — in other words the hotels and accommodation, the tourist attractions — all are hoping, you know, that people are going to continue to do this erm and i think this may apply to certain sectors of the community erm and we just hope that that will grow. okay, well we'll come back to that, if i may, in a moment, because i just want to move on again to another guest, who is waiting to talk to us on the telephone, and that is lindsay mcneill, who is the aviation reporters for travel news. lindsay, welcome to the programme. thank you. we've been talking to michael medleycote from the british tourist authority, and one of the points i was making to him was with the recession and also the gulf war people are very concerned, a) there's the cost of flying, but also they're concerned of course about security. is it actually safe to fly? could you just give me an impression of what's happened in the aviation industry over the past few weeks, because i think i am right in saying that the number of people flying actually has been drastically reduced. it has indeed, yes. i mean just out of heathrow and gatwick i think traffic has dropped by about twenty per cent over the erm past two weeks, but that's now beginning to pick up again. and how quickly is it coming back? it seems to be coming back fairly swiftly actually, and airlines are quite confident now that erm they will see traffic growth once again of round about five per cent now i have a figure in front of me which came from the international air transport association who say that in january something in the order of sixteen flights were cancelled, and airlines lost more than five hundred million pounds in revenue, of which three hundred million was lost by european airlines. it does seem to me when you start losing money of that sort it's going to have some major impact on the industry. yes, it is a fact, but what airlines have been forced to do now is cut their costs, reshape, look at where they were losing money, and perhaps that's a positive thing. they'll be in a better shape now for the future. as far as holidaymakers i'm thinking now more of people taking package holidays overseas, is there going to be a big impact this coming year? yes, well fortunately this whole gulf thing seems to have died down will be dying down just at the right time. operators have got another couple of weeks in which to take decisions on capacity for the summer, so they might not cut back as much as they erm, they might have done had the war still been ongoing, so we should still have plenty of holidays available this summer. and prices? erm it's difficult to say, but erm again that's something they're looking at over the next couple of weeks, but perhaps along last year's lines — they shouldn't really be any higher than last year. and the other fear, of course, was that the cost of fuel is going to go out literally through the roof, if you'll excuse the pun, erm that doesn't seem to have happened, so again presumably they the tour operators will be able to hold prices, certainly as far as the flights are concerned? they should be able to hold prices and they certainly shouldn't got up by as much as they thought they might have to put them up. now i know as i was saying a few moments ago, i travelled to the continent just recently, and i know we had to pay a surcharge on the flight. is there any sign that that actually is going to be reduced, the necessity for doing that? yes, there is. as the fuel prices come down they shouldn't have to surcharge, but again that's something they'll be looking at over the next couple of weeks. so things are still, as far as your concerned, still very fluid? yes, certainly, yes. okay. thank you very much. is it a confident future that you're looking at? certainly more confident now than it was a few days ago . but i gather quite a few people in the industry have actually lost their jobs, have they not, and been laid off? they have. there have been a number of redundancies, which were unavoidable because erm of the operators' loss of business. mhm. okay. thank you very much for joining us. thank you. that's lindsay mcneill, who's the aviation reporter for travel news and, as you heard, things are coming back. erm if people are restored to confidence, feel that they are able to travel, that of course reduces the number of people who are going to stay in this country and have their holidays here, and stan, if i can come back to you, i mean we it is almost arguing against the point that you were making a few moments ago that, you know, you want people to stay in this country. i mean obviously if people are frightened to fly the potential market for you is that much greater. yes, i'm not denying, you know, that people do go abroad for their holidays of course. and a few million of them do. erm what this gives us an opportunity to do is to further exploit and promote erm the english, or the sort of british holiday, and this is why we are sort of working on the theme ‘britain's great’, because a lot of people have yet to discover various parts of britain and there are all sorts of holidays, you know, across britain, from land's end to county antrim, from loch ness to london town. every kind of holiday that there is — traditional beach holidays, action breaks, coach tours, boating trips, and more, plus attractions from mountain zoos to city museums, and a complete spectrum of quality accommodation from modern camping sites to luxury hotels. i think, you know, the erm the tourist boards have taken the industry by the scruff of the neck and said look you must have standards, you must have quality, and you must be price competitive. and on all those issues i think the industry itself has pulled itself up and through the national tourist boards we are going to promote it very hard indeed over the four week period. yes, in fact i was just looking at a figure, a four million pound campaign in total is going to be launched, is it not, to persuade britons to take holidays in their own country. it was actually launched yesterday. i think you were there with erm william davis, who's the chairman of the english tourist board, so he was sort of launching this yesterday. you were there, but now you and other representatives from the other local tourist boards have got to go out and spread the message. that's very true and they have a the industry itself, you know, now has to pick itself up and say right we, you know, and it's very easy to talk oneself into recession and january and february, normally fairly dull months anyway, we are now, on march the first, saint david's day, at the brink of a season which could be one of the best seasons they ever have. i suppose you could argue, it's a rather crass argument, but you could argue if we're going to have a war probably january's the best time to have it from your point of view. absolutely right, and lindsay said the same, you know, because there is sufficient time for the tour operators to get their act together now and promote the holidays, and given the british tradition, you know, we they will take their holiday, i'm pretty sure. there will be some erm later bookings. there will be some reservations erm but erm i'm pretty certain the erm the english habit of taking a holiday erm will still, you know, be very useful for this time of year and for the whole of the season. now michael medleycote was rather upbeat. i mean he was saying look we're going to go out and we're going to market britain to the overseas visitors and they do bring a lot of money into this country, but i mean are we really going to get back to the levels that we've seen in recent years? do you think that perhaps this is going to be difficult and, if we don't get back to those levels, then presumably you have to encourage local british people to, to make up the leeway so speak, because if you don't it means hotels, restaurants, all kinds of businesses, could be in difficulty. yes, we do obviously erm in this particular region erm depend a great deal on the overseas visitor erm but i think michael also made a very good point in relation to the comradeship which has emerged through the war erm and i think this was erm further identified by some representatives we sent out erm on the part of the local regional boards, in other words london, south east, southern, east anglia. we've just done a fortnight in the states promoting this region erm to the agents of the erm people who, you know, really book holidays, and one of the things that emerged more than ever was this comradeship, you know, we are together in this erm and what a great country you've got over there. this means, you know, that that message is getting across erm to the erm people in the states. the states give us a very high percentage of visitors to this particular region. erm i mean the highest percentage of overseas visitors to this country are from america, and people, you know, like paul duffy at blenheim palace, you know, depend a great deal on the american visitor. erm and that's and industry that, you know, we need to support locally. erm and i'm pretty certain they will come. the one problem, obviously, is the exchange rate erm and one can't deny that that is a problem, but erm hopefully we'll be able to overcome that and the visitor numbers will at least equal last year, that's the best we can hope for. and it's not just the businesses that are obviously involved with the tourist industry, because after all visitors do spend money. they go into the local shops. i mean i know there's always an argument, especially here in oxford, that people just come, look round the colleges and they're gone again, but having said that some of them must spend some money. i would guess quite a bit of money goes into the local economy. statistics show, you know, that the highest percentage of the spend of the overseas visitor goes on shopping. yes. so, yes. there's an undeniable fact that that is so and that will obviously benefit the economy if they come and they will feel a draught if they don't come. erm so they can't deny that. but what the industry itself — that's the hotels and the erm attractions — now have got to combine with us because we can't do this for nothing, you know, they will get erm from us, all our members, to the fact that they can buy media space at fifty per cent off. that's what in, in, in ground terms it means and we hope they will respond. they will put their product before the public and say look come and stay at our hotel, come and place your caravan in our camping site and that's what we're after. i mean that's what marketing is all about. i was reading an article only in the last couple of days where it was talking about not particularly tourism, it was talking about a business that was in difficulty, and it said, you know, do you actually make people redundant, you do you stop advertising and you know the bottom line is you've got to keep advertising because if you don't tell people you're there nobody's going to come and buy your product, whatever it is, and you're going to disappear anyway. absolutely. but it's a hard graft, isn't it. i mean between actually losing people, at the same time spending what is quite a lot of money on advertising. yes, yes, but erm it means that whatever part of the tourist industry anybody's in erm now is the opportunity to benefit from erm the british tourist board's initiative and promote their own individual business erm featuring them in this erm massive advertising campaign, erm incorporating all the media, erm and benefit. they couldn't have a better time to do it. okay, we'll come back and pick up with you again, if we may, in a few moments time, but i wanted to change tack once more and go back to the telephones, and waiting to talk to us now is alan spong, he's a director of lunn poly, one of the country's leading travel agents. alan, thank you for joining us. hello. hello, john. right, first of all let's ask you, what sort of market are you in? what sort of customers do you deal with? well we're travel retailers and primarily dealing with overseas holidays and erm with five hundred shops round the country we're the number one retailer. mhm. and erm lunn poly sells the holiday products of all the major tour operators and airlines, cruise lines, etc. right, so what's the situation as you sit at your desk at this point in time? is it, is it a fairly confident outlook, or are you thinking well it could be better? well, business can always be better, but in the last two or three days we've really become quite excited about things. erm we have seen a gradual recovery in the last ten days. every day we monitor bookings with our tour operators and our own figures. the last ten days gradually it has been coming back since the really trough period in late january with the war and the snow, etc., and in fact this week erm we're expecting this week to probably do double the level of bookings that we did last week, and that's on overseas holidays for summer and winter. we would be expecting to double last week's figures, because it's picked up so dramatically in the last couple of days. mhm. i've got a figure here which erm is generally erm it quotes most package holiday operators report bookings down by up to eighty per cent since the outbreak of war in january. so what you're saying, that may have been a true figure perhaps two or three days ago, but it actually is changing day by day. i mean that is not the cumulative situation. that is probably the worst one day figure which happened, as i say, combination of war and the snow, when the shops were pretty well closed off, and yes we certainly saw figures that, on a day for day basis to last year, they were seventy five per cent down, but cumulative i mean the position's much better than that erm nowhere near that sort of figure, and erm we are very confident that the summer market for overseas holidays will recover steadily and we'd be very surprised if, by the end of september, we're more than five or six per cent down on summer holiday bookings compared to last year, and we're confident enough to have brought back our campaigns and our advertising starts this week, and we've even been confident enough to announce to our staff that their annual salary review will take place on the first of april as scheduled. so i think that does underline your confidence. very much so. what about destinations? are people fighting shy of certain parts of the world? well obviously the last few weeks the eastern mediterranean has been hit very badly erm but even as from yesterday places like cyprus are starting to come back very quickly. i mean cyprus has been one of the major growth destinations in the last year or so and erm people stopped going there from the day war broke out. already people who cancelled in january and february are back in our shops booking to go within the next two or three weeks. so there is a strong recovery, mainly, i guess, western mediterranean has held up strongly, spain, the spanish islands, canaries, america. i mean one in seven of our bookings now are long haul holidays, and a large percentage of those will be going to america, and again the exchange rate from the pound to the dollar helps us there. erm it's probably sort of fifteen per cent better than it was last year. so that's got to be a good thing, isn't it? well for people going to the states it's a good time to go. i think you've almost convinced me. i think i'll be on the next plane, but erm what about prices because that, again looking from the point of view of the recession, people have been a bit hard pressed for cash. i know the interest rates are coming down, but erm there's still a little way to go on that. yes. i mean holiday prices were, were sort of scheduled to go up this year compared to last year's, probably sort of eight, nine, ten per cent. erm we don't expect to see a great change in that. our average holiday price is holding up very well. erm we're not expecting to see a huge amount of discounting in the summer months, so erm because the capacity that was on the market this year is going to very much match the demand from customers mhm. so that there won't be a lot of dumping, as it's called, and there won't be that number of last minute bargains so, you know, i think this is why people are coming in very quickly now to book while the main summer dates are still available. and the capacity is there to handle whatever comes? oh yes, there's plenty of aircraft and there's plenty of hotels out there, i can tell you . . yes, in fact i suggest the problem is could be the other way round — if you don't get your bookings, of course, you could have over capacity. well, yes, though i think tour operators had a very sensible capacity level this year. i mean no-one was very bullish right from the outset because of problems of previous years, so everyone set a sensible target for ninety one, and erm i think most of them are fairly confident, as i said earlier, that the market may be five per cent down but not much more than that. now, alan, do you get involved at all with holidays in this country? yes, i would say probably lunn poly is the largest retailer of u k holidays for the erm domestic residence. obviously we don't deal with incoming, but holidays for the u k residents, yes that's a fairly major part of our business, and certainly has been pretty successful in recent weeks. i mean every year we have a campaign from about the middle of january to the end of february where we promote british holidays through our shop windows, and in fact i was just totting up our advertising spend in the last four or five weeks and i would say we have spent almost a hundred thousand pounds on partner advertising for lunn poly — book your holiday at lunn poly for u k holidays. i guess that's fairly unusual, because travel agents in the past haven't spent money saying you can book a holiday at your travel agent, but erm we've had a pretty high spend and backed up by window point of serve , so we have messages in our shop windows that you can buy a british holiday at lunn poly. are the bookings, though, reflected is there a surge in bookings? you see i've got with me in the studio here stan bowes, who's the head of marketing for the thames and chilterns tourist board, and stan has just been explaining to us that there is this campaign to encourage people to take holidays in this country. are you seeing that reflected already? oh, certainly, yes, i mean i keep a record here — i'm turning over my figures which shows my weekly intakes of u k holidays this year against last year. i mean i've only got some figures here up to the twenty fourth of february, and in that particular week we sold about thirteen and a half thousand u k holidays, as against the week last year of about five and a half, so we've obviously seen a fairly major growth in u k holidays, but, as i said, we spent about a hundred thousand pounds on promotion, so we're very pleased with the uptake of business coming in. but that is quite impressive figures for us, i mean we've never seen that sort of volumes of figures before, but erm over the last year or two i mean tour operators have worked far more closely with travel agents in promoting u k products. mhm, mhm. so it's very important that if we don't get erm visitors coming into the country from overseas that we perhaps erm help the industry, the industry helps itself indeed by giving and providing holidays for people from this country. well i think so, yes. i mean operators have made big steps and big investments in the last two or three years in upgrading facilities on whether their holiday centres, you know, cottages, boats, centre parcs, that type of thing, and that is good quality business and erm it's certainly coming in to us. okay, thank you very much indeed for joining us. okay, thanks, john. that's alan spong, who's a director of lunn poly, one of the leading travel agents in this country. let's then just turn our attention to the facilities in this country, the sort of things you've heard stan saying here in the studio that there's a lot to offer in this country, lot's of different kinds of scenery, lot's of different types of attractions, but let's just take a look at the sort of facilities that are available in this country. do they actually meet up to what we want? are they improving? well waiting to talk to us on the telephone now is rupert lancaster, who's the managing director of foders u k. they, of course, publish the foders travel guides. rupert, thank you for joining us. erm what is the situation as far as you're concerned in this country? do we have erm the sort of facilities that visitors expect? i think it depends a little bit where the visitors are coming from. certainly as far as americans are concerned, a lot of our hotels don't come up to the standards of service that they are used to, and certainly they don't think they're value for money. i mean when our researchers were doing our london guide for nineteen ninety one, they did actually make that point that erm they reckoned that things were overpriced in london. so what can we do to perhaps erm reduce the prices of these things. i mean is it going to be a case that market values are actually going to work to our advantage? i'm talking now as a consumer. it could be. i also think that erm it's up to erm us — i mean if you think of us as a whole travel industry — to really take a look at what we are providing and compare it with what is provided in other countries; the standards of service, how long do you have to wait for a meal when you're sitting down to eat in a restaurant, what are people used to in france and germany and the usa? i mean i know from my own personal experience that if you come fly from new york to london and you eat a meal in a restaurant or in a hotel in new york and then the next day you eat one in london, you do find that the services is much slower, for example. it is a sort of it seems like almost a national characteristic, and after a while you get used to it again, but it is that is something which really does strike americans when they come here. and it also is true that the cost is different. i'm thinking now in terms of hotel rooms and the availability of hotel rooms and motels. it is different from country to country, and i sometimes feel i mean i'm not sure whether i'm being unfair to our industry here, but it does seem to me that perhaps we haven't quite got our act together yet, we're going in the right direction, but we haven't quite got there. i think it's certainly true and i think it one shouldn't be too doom and gloom about it. i think the way that we're much more open mhm. and interested in what other countries are doing is a great step forward. i think that erm even something as basic as motorway service areas have improved over the past few years, and this is simply my own personal experience, not particularly fodors . i still think there's a long way to go and there's a very, very variable standard if you take motorway service areas. i would personally like to see more erm sort of grading of erm more, more higher standards being set by the sort of head offices of people who own things like chains of motorway service areas, not catering for the lowest common denominator, but aiming to really have an absolutely top quality service, cleanliness, everything, in all parts of their business. that's going to take some time to achieve, is it not? i should think it probably would, but i don't think that's any reason for not starting it and for not seeing it as a major goal, because after all erm the travel market, as we've heard, is extremely competitive erm people really do vote with their feet and if we don't then people won't come here, and now we really have got a fight on our hands to encourage people to come here, particularly from north america. can i just ask you, in the past few weeks we've all heard, and in fact i've cited some figures in this programme, that, you know, people have been staying away. the hotels, particularly in london, have found that their occupancy rates have dropped remarkably. do you think that's having an effect on the industry? is the industry having to sort of look at itself and say ‘hey, we've got to do something because if we don't we won't be here’? i think it must do that. i think the danger is, though, that what will happen is that hotels will shed staff mhm. as a way of cutting back their overheads, which is a quite natural thing to do. mhm. then when things get better they might not be so keen to take them on again, which again will affect service. i think that is a danger. erm i also think that people will use the fact that people are staying away, or have stayed away, because of the gulf as a sort of excuse for people not coming and not really get down to the roots of maybe, you know, why aren't people, why don't people want to stay in british hotels, why don't people want to stay in london hotels? okay. can i just bring in my other guest who's here in the studio. that's stan bowes, who's head of the marketing for thames and chilterns tourist board. stan, have you any observations to make on, on the way that the industry — i'm thinking now of hotels particularly — how they're responding to what is, after all, seems to be a changing market. i think the hotels in this region have erm done an excellent job. they have worked on the basis of service, and certainly the hoteliers i know erm and their american visitors erm have a strong and excellent relationship because they do provide the service. i can't speak for london hotels, but basically in this region we have a fair number of esteemed country house hotels, as well as the inner town hotels, and all of them offer a service at a very competitive price, and perhaps this is something we should encourage — the american visitor to stay out of london erm and come and stay in london's country, as we call ourselves, round the thames and chilterns. yes, because if you do meet people who come to this area they particularly if they spend a week or ten days in london first, i mean i've had people say to me, you know, golly it's totally different, and it is. yes, and erm that's the aim of our campaign, to encourage people, and overseas visitors as well, to stay was i in this part of the world. was i then being unfair when i said that, you know, in my view, we still haven't totally got our act together, there's still room for improvement, and the thing is, you see, people are travelling to other countries. as we were hearing from rupert just now, you know, you start if you travel to the states and spend two or three weeks wandering around there, you get an impression of the travel industry as a consumer, and you come back and go to a hotel here and you find that it seems a bit more expensive, or perhaps the meals aren't quite so good, or, as rupert pointed out, the service isn't quite so good. now it's obviously going to vary from establishment to establishment, but do you feel that we perhaps still have some way to go? yes. it, you know, the remarks one makes are sort of on a generalization basis, and obviously one speaks from sometimes one's own personal experience. erm yes, i mean you can't deny the fact that one should always try and work towards achieving higher standards and the comparisons between different hotels erm are obvious, because one personally one's personal experience is bound to come into play. erm yes, we, we have problems in this country in relation to cleanliness and erm litter free areas and various other factors, but in genuine terms our english hotel still stands up well in comparison with our european and american colleagues. now the reason i ask you these questions, of course, is not you personally, but the tourist board is responsible for a grading scheme which is available for us, the consumers, to help us pick the right hotel for our needs. exactly, and we are encouraged that more and more hoteliers are taking advantage of this particular scheme, because it is a good scheme. it does give them the opportunity to provide the facilities, and on top of that on top of classification we now have grading, where every aspect of that hotel's operation is examined and inspected and they are giving erm the classification as well as the grading, which could be highly commended or commended, and to give you some idea, out of the hotels in this region, you know, very, very few so far have reached the highly commended accolade, and those that do are well worth it, you know. take for instance hartwell house in aylesbury, erm a perfect example of a highly commended hotel, well worth it, and this is the type of standards that the americans want. now when you do this sort of assessment do you take into consideration the amount of money i have to pay to go and stay a night at a place like this? does that come into the classification? yes, because the inspector who goes has to pay that price. so that's all he goes completely incognito. and that's one of the factors. he has to pay that price. we have to pay the hotel fee, because the hotel doesn't know that he is an inspector, or she is an inspector. mhm. okay, so rupert, if i can come back to you, i mean do you think then that we're doing enough to, to make these improvements? we're just hearing what stan's been saying about the way the tourist boards are erm classifying hotels and trying to assist us, the consumer, i mean how do you view it? you're a professional, after all. i think it's absolutely the right way to go, and i think that one of the things that the english tourist boards are doing, which is quite right, is to make people more aware of their classification and grading schemes. there's no point having this fancy scheme if people don't know it and also trust it. i would like to see them actually promote the fact that it's very much an independent assessment. mhm. erm because after all there's not point in having these gradings and stars and whatever if people don't a) know about them and b) trust them to be independent. yes, so it's all a step in the right direction? absolutely that, yes. what about these service stations, though, we we're i'll just bring stan back in. i know you don't actually have anything to do with service stations, is that correct, as a tourist board? well, we've recently erm been involved in the travel lodge exercise, which obviously is a budget priced operation which is run by trust house forte, and there i think the company itself is establishing very good standards because the occupancy rate of the travel lodges is so high, you know, that other hoteliers are quite jealous of it. so that means the consumer is voting with their feet and saying this is good, it's a good service, and that is also attached to the motorway services stations, so there is indication that improvements are rapidly coming erm into being, which is good news, good news. rupert, if i could just finally ask you, do you then see prospects as being fairly rosy for this summer in this country? i think a lot will depend on how quickly we can all encourage north american tourists to come to britain. i think certainly in london that's absolutely crucial to the financial health of london tourist. as far as europeans are concerned, they'll undoubtedly come here, as we are going to be travelling to france and germany and italy and wherever, but i think it's getting the north american tourists convinced that it's going to be okay here, they're going to get a value for money holiday. i think that's the crucial thing. well thank you very much indeed for joining us. pleasure. that's rupert lancaster, who's the managing director of fodors u k. they, of course, publish the fodors travel guides, and stan was sitting here nodding his head in agreement with that. the american market is oh so important? yes, i mean it's not the whole of the market, admittedly, and we are still encouraging our own countrymen to take a holiday in this country erm but if one's blunt about it, yes, it's erm a large sector of the market and one that is, one we've got to get back to come up to last year's levels. yes, so the potential in the states, of course, is enormous. the population there somebody once quoted me a figure of, i think it was four per cent of the american nation have passports. that's about it, yes. i mean that's frightening isn't it? it's incredible, yes. i mean if you go down cornmarket in a normal summer, you can hardly hear anything but erm american voices, so it just shows that there is a vast potential there, but it's getting them here. can i just, as we come to towards the end of the programme, as you this. i mean here we are, we've been talking about taking holidays in this area, and i imagine that much of the work that you do as a local tourist board is not actually directly aimed at people who live in this area. after all, most of us who live here know what there is to see in the area. you're presumably looking at people in other parts of the country? oh yes, yes, because a lot of the people who live in this area obviously erm visit other parts of the country, scotland and wales. we have a tremendous population here that have not discovered what's on their doorstep. there are people in oxford who've never been to windsor. equally, there are people in windsor who've never been to oxford. and look at the heritage oxford has got, and look at what windsor has to offer, just to quote two examples. there's the river thames — how many of our local people have ever taken a holiday on the river thames? erm and we have many hire boats down there which offer a very good holiday at a very good price. erm and given the right weather, there is no better place to be than in the thames and chilterns. it sounds as though we perhaps are blind to the things that are on our own doorstep, which i think is something we tend to accept. yes, that's very true. people who have been encouraged to visit something, or somewhere, or some place, when they've done so say ‘well, i've lived here, you know, x number of years and this is the first time i've been here’ and they are so pleased. i suppose that comments like that are music to your ears? indeed. well, stan bowes, thank you very much indeed for joining me this afternoon — stan bowes, head of marketing for thames and chilterns tourist board and helping with this look at the tourist industry. that's just about it for today's programme. on monday bill heine will be here at this time, so why not join him then? from me, john simpson, goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today we'll talk about the oxford city council and look at how well it's run, or how well it's not run. i'm joined by phyllis starkey, she's the leader of the oxford city council, the leader of the labour group, and michael wright is from the liberal democrats, and queenie warley is a former mayor and she's from the conservative benches. well, phyllis starkey, welcome to the programme. i'm i'd like to know what it's like running oxford city council when, and i'm sure you think you're doing an good job and many people probably do think you're a good job, but there are lots of issues that need discussing. for instance, the housing repairs — a lot of people complain about what a shoddy job is being done about housing repairs. the rental on council houses has gone up quite considerably, people are worried about that. a lot of people wonder whether there is a traffic policy in oxford. people know there is no tourism policy, and the number of personnel has doubled over the last years, but are we getting better services? over to you, phyllis starkey, leader of the labour group on oxford city council. well, i don't imagine that you want me to answer all those questions immediately, otherwise nobody else, i think, would get a look in. so erm i imagine they'll come up during the course of the programme. i mean you ask what it's like erm being a member of the majority labour group, being the leader of the city council, it's extremely hard work, it's an enormous responsibility, and on many occasions it's extremely frustrating because the amount of freedom that the city council has to decide its policy and decide its spending priorities is reducing all the time. central government has taken more and more control of what local councils can do, and in particular has control of the amount of money that local councils can spend erm more and more over the years. so, it's hard work, it's frustrating, it's a challenge, and occasionally it's very satisfying and good fun. but i should think part of that good fun would be able to devise means of grabbing power back from central government when they're taking it away from you. have you been very successful at that? well i think in common with most local authorities we've been playing a sort of cat and mouse game with central government over the last ten years, where we have attempted to continue to deliver the services that we believe we've been elected to deliver, and central government has been trying to close off what it would see as loopholes and gain control of us and stop us doing what it doesn't want us to do, but of course it's a rather unequal struggle and the cat and mouse analogy is quite a good one in that central government has all the power and is able to erm take control of us to the extent now that the budget that both the city and the county council have set for the coming year has effectively been set by central government. central government has decided how much money should be spent by the city and county councils and all that we as councillors have been able to do is to decide, within that limit, how the money is allocated. yes. i'm just wondering if you're over egging the pudding there. it can't be that bad, surely? queenie warley. ah, well, yes, phyllis blames it all to central government. i wonder very much what situation oxford city would be in if we hadn't got a central government. they have introduced legislation which has been a guideline to the spending of the city council under labour control. well do you think that the city council is spending in an irrational and unreasonable way, currently and for the last ten years? for the last ten years the spending of the city council has risen beyond belief. you spoke of personnel at the beginning; the number of staff on the city council in the last ten years has doubled. erm i could mention the recreation budget, because i think you talked about recreation; in about nineteen eighty the recreation budget was a million and a half, it's now six and a half million plus. and i think we've got to remember that a local authority is not funded from money that grows on trees, it is funded by the electorate and we, as councillors, have a duty to that electorate to spend the money wisely. well if the conservatives got in would you cut back the money allocated to recreation and would you cut back on the recreation services? we would have to look very carefully at this. i think our ploy on erm recreation would be to bring in private operators. the present ruling group have introduced some nice facilities. they've put in a ice rink, a very nice international standard temple cowley pools and many other things, leisure centres and so on. yes, phyllis starkey, the leader of the labour group, is grinning like the cheshire cat. oh, she's got all the answers up her sleeve i expect, but that has caused tremendous debt charges, which, at the moment, have to be paid, and whether we could find a private operator to take them on or not i don't know, but private operators operate throughout the country and in many other of the districts within the county of oxfordshire, and they operate efficiently and do just as good a job as the city council are doing in the present situation. so one of your responses would be to bring in the privatization card and put a lot of this out to tender? indeed. yes. phyllis starkey. well, i mean i think that queenie is trying to avoid the real question. i mean the question that has to be faced is that when you talk about cutting the costs in local government you also have to talk about the services which councils deliver, and you can't get something for nothing. when queenie talks about the increased expenditure on recreation from nineteen eighty to now, that's quite right, there has been a huge increase in spending, and that's because the labour council was committed to improving recreation facilities in the city, and it didn't continue the appalling record that the conservative administration had had before of virtually no recreational facilities, it invested in recreation facilities — you listed them yourself — and of course those facilities have to be paid for and on when we have stood for election we've always made it clear that we want to provide quality services, but of course that they have to be paid for, and so the second point that you then made was that, you know, our budget's gone up beyond belief, well i mean this year it's being cut by two million pounds, last year it was a standstill budget, and erm that has been done at a time when in fact central government has been transferring responsibilities from central government onto local government without increasing, indeed at the same time decreasing the amount of central government grant that's gone to local councils. and the issue of privatization is a complete red herring. the debt charges on the recreation facilities, for example, would remain, whoever was running them and there is absolutely no possibility that private contractors would actually take over the debt charges. all that they would be tendering for would be to actually run the facility, and there's no reason to suppose that a private contractor can do that any more cheaply, if they deliver the same quality of service, as the local authority can do, so it wouldn't actually save money, all it would do would mean that control of the level of service that was being delivered at those facilities was lost from the council to a private contractor. well, i'm also joined by michael wright from the liberal democrats. michael, if the liberal democrats gained control of oxford city council what changes would they make in the way things are operating now? well i have to say straight away that i've erm worked on a council with the labour party in opposition with us, and now with the labour party in government with us with us a very small group, and i have to say it's much preferable to have the labour party in power than to have the conservative party in power as far as we're concerned, because at local level the sort of things that we want to do — providing better services, caring of people, all those sort of things — we don't disagree. we disagree quite strongly at national level and international level, but locally we don't. if we did take control of the council i think we would try and decentralize much more than is being done at the moment. i don't just mean decentralizing the housing by having it in area offices. i don't just mean the sort of things that walsal council have done of decentralizing social services and that sort of thing. i mean actually decentralizing the power, by having groups of ward councillors, on an area basis, actually having the power decentralized to them and having open meetings in various parts of the city where you've got the nine or twelve councillors from three or four wards who'd actually have a lot of power delegated to them, and so we would try and put power downwards. i think that would be one thing we would do. what powers would you delegate on that level? well i erm i'm basing it on the tower hamlets model. now, of course tower hamlets is a unitary authority and oxford county and oxford city is not. tower hamlets found that they could not decentralize social services, for example, because of the statutory requirement to have a social services committee, but everything else they've erm within the overall council policy, which is decided by all the councillors, they've decentralized a great deal of the powers down to these local groups of councillors, and where the labour control the areas they control these local councils, and where the liberal democrats control them they control them, and i think it's working very well. there were an awful lot of teething troubles in the first year or so, but it is working very well. the other thing, i think, erm i do appreciate that phyllis has got a terrible problem running the council with the constraints imposed on her by central government, and by and large i think they do it very well, as i have said. but there are certain things, as i have suggested and other people have suggested, on which we haven't got a response from the group, the labour group, when we have made these suggestions, and i would be more open, i think, to suggestions and ideas from other groups than the labour party are at the moment. well what sort of suggestions would you like to see put in operation? well there's one which i did make; erm we have a dreadful housing situation in oxford, and i don't think phyllis and i would disagree that it's appalling and erm a lot of it's outside our control. it's to do with the government housing policy at national level, but there are certain things we can do, and i remember about two and a half years ago i arranged for a group of people to come and give a seminar to the housing committee. we had the walter segal trust, we had the lightmoor project and various other projects who had actually built their own houses. and we then took the housing committee down to lambeth to see the benefits of what they had done. we then went on to sydenham and lewisham and looked that, and erm the general feeling was the walter segal houses were not of a sufficiently high standard to be satisfactory for people on our housing waiting list. well i was involved with these professionally, and they are a very high standard, and it's certainly not going to solve our housing problem. but the people who built them — the thirty or forty people possibly at the most in oxford who built those houses — it would solve their problems and it would give them a completely new slant on life to have built their own houses. i think ideas like that have not been readily acceptable by the labour group and well it sounds like a creative alternative. why haven't you taken that one up, phyllis. well in fact we have discussed it erm and we have seriously considered it. erm from my recollection the main problem with it is for the most part, i think, these self-build projects, where they've been erm pursued in other places, have used land which was not otherwise utilizable, and that's the way that they've actually reduced the price of the finished house. now in oxford erm we actually don't have any land like that, and the problem was that, even if we had self-build houses on the land which is available at the moment, on which we want to build council houses but we haven't got the money to build council houses, if we were to allow self- build to go ahead on those sites because of the value of the land then the sorts of people who would actually be able to afford them would not be people on low incomes, or even sort of low to medium incomes, they would actually be people who were fairly well off and therefore not the people that we would want to be directing our resources at. so we did consider it. it wasn't, you know, rejected out of hand. we are grateful for imaginative erm ideas that come up anywhere in the council and we do consider them, but on reflection this seemed not one that was worth pursuing in oxford. mhm. queenie warley. thank you, bill. yes, well, we do have a housing crisis, there is no doubt about that, but to say that it's government created is just another ploy of the labour group and the liberal democrats who, as michael has said, are usually incohesion; that is why we are a small group of ten on council fighting probably about thirty five. the government has always attempted to increase the choice in housing. you can't concentrate exclusively on council house provision. you can't force tenants to live under a local monopoly, because consumers want choice. they prefer to live in an integrated situation. now erm i think michael said he would go for decentralization and we know this is what has already started in our housing department. we have five decentralized offices dotted around the city, which are all very well. they probably do improve the services to the people on the estates; they do hurry along their repairs, which i think you mentioned at first, bill, but we've still retained a central department. i think the conservatives would consider disbanding that, you don't need that as well. our in joining in this theme, in the first instance, we clearly stated that the number of staff employed to do this should be the same, but you've now got five erm outside housing departments, all with ten staff and still ten in central, or even more maybe. so i think erm, you know, that's got to be disbanded. we do feel that erm as a city councillor we should be enabling people to find the homes of their choice. michael wright. well i must come back. you know people want choice in housing. how right she is, but they don't have any choice. the sixty people we have every night in the night shelter have no choice at all and nor to the five and a half thousand families on our housing waiting list. they have no choice at all, and we are in a most dreadful situation and government policy only has one choice and that's you buy, and if you can't afford to buy, and at the moment only thirty five per cent of families in oxford can afford to buy on the current wage levels and the current house prices, the other sixty five per cent have no choice whatsoever, so you know you're talking nonsense to say we want consumer choice in housing. we haven't got it. phyllis starkey. yes, i mean i agree absolutely with what michael says and i want to extend it. i think that really the conservative line that they put forward on housing is totally indefensible. the facts of the matter in oxford are that there is an enormous housing crisis and that affects people at all levels. it's basically because there is a chronic shortage of housing in all sectors, and in particular obviously we are concerned with people who erm are on relatively low incomes and who are quite unable to become owner occupiers. yes, yet you've increased their rent at council houses by quite a considerable amount. you're so concerned about them, yet you increase their rent? something doesn't add up. well, what doesn't add up is the government's policy on housing. the government has changed policy on housing to try to effectively force tenants out of council housing. they've done it by an alteration in the way local government finance works, so that the cost of providing new council housing and the cost of maintaining existing council housing has to be met entirely from the rent paid by existing council tenants, and erm a certain amount of government subsidy. and although the city council has managed over the years to old council house rents down, i think for three years there was absolutely no rent increase and then only about a nine per cent increase, although we've managed to hold council house rents down until and this year the rent is what. this year what is the rent increase this year? the rent increase this year is an average of seven pounds a week. the labour what's the per cent? it's thirty nine per cent. that is absolutely appalling and it is a direct result of central government policy in reducing the level of grant which has come to support housing in oxford city. the rate of government grant erm to council housing is based on the notional value of that housing, so it's based on the idea that we could actually get rid of all our tenants and sell all our council housing on the open market. now, in fact, of course, under the government's right to buy legislation the value of the housing is reduced by the discounts that our tenants have. i mean in fact when it's sold to tenants it's sold at erm a fraction of it's real value. in any case, the logic of the government's case is to say that if you are a person on low income, dependent on council housing, and you happen to live in area like oxford, which has extremely high land values, then you should pay a very high rent, and they assume that they will pay that high rent and they reduce the grant to the housing fund erm on those lines, with the consequence that the council had no choice but to put the rents up. in fact initially the erm if we'd followed government guidelines exactly, the rents would have had to have gone up by even more, by about twelve pounds a week, but because erm we were able to erm manage the finances erm more carefully, we were able to reduce that increase to seven pounds a week, but none of the labour councillors would say that that increase is acceptable. we didn't want to have to put forward an increase so that was as high as that. we tried every way to reduce the increase and it's entirely a result of government policy. queenie warley, from the conservatives. thank you, bill. well, the point is erm phyllis and her group knew very well that the government had decreed the housing revenue account should balance. it had decreed that many years ago, and if they had taken the appropriate rent rises in steps and phased them in, this sudden large rise, which is causing hardship, would not have happened. i think it is very sad they've had to do it that way. at the actual erm meeting which put this into practice the conservatives suggested a phased in method, some now and some later, and this would have relieved a certain amount of hardship. we know at the moment we're under boundary changes. we know we're taking in some erm five hundred more council houses, and we know that the rents of those, as they come in, are considerably higher than those of our own, and the rent rise they will have to suffer will be very little in comparison with the one that the city council is putting off. mhm. michael wright from the liberal democrats. i'm erm i've been working in low cost housing, housing charities, for a very long time, with shelter and various other charities like that, and i never cease to be amazed that the conservative group, here or nationally, are hostile to subsidies for council housing, because the subsidy which goes to owner-occupiers, through mortgage tax relief, is very much greater than the subsidy that goes to council housing and there's nothing we as a council can do about this, but i do hope that in due course we will get a fair system of subsidising houses for everybody, so that wealthy people on high incomes who are getting a big subsidy on their housing through their tax relief, erm are not getting more than people on low incomes living in council houses. we've got to get a much better system of subsidising housing for everybody, so that those in real need get a bigger share of the cake than the people who are living in very big houses, with very big incomes, and getting tax relief at the higher rate. i think it's a most disgraceful system quite honestly, and my own party, and the liberal party before that, have been campaigning for years to get a fairer system, but there's nothing we as a council can do about this unfortunately. phyllis starkey, you've mentioned earlier that this will cause hardship to people, this huge rent rise of thirty nine per cent. what are you doing for those people who are at their wits end? they can't afford it. i mean what sort of lifeline are you throwing out to those people, because there are a lot of people in that category, they just don't know where to turn, everything's going up and now with this huge rise they are almost on the street. right. well, i mean, of course we recognise the difficulty that many tenants will have will face in meeting this rent increase. but what are you doing about it? and, well we're doing what we've always done in relation to erm tenants and erm rent arrears, we basically pursue a sympathetic policy erm for tenants who are facing real financial hardship in paying their rents. what does that mean? which means that we talk to them about a reasonable rate at which they can pay their rent. we make sure that they have proper benefit advice, so that if there are any benefits that they're entitled to that they get those benefits. we make sure and many of our tenants, of course, are in receipt of housing benefit, those on the lowest incomes, and for them housing benefit will meet most, if not all, of the increase, but there are many tenants who don't get housing benefit who will have to pay the increase themselves. we counsel people if they are in debt to other organisations as well as ourselves we offer money advice to help them to manage their debts so that they pay off all the debts at do you have a money adviser, is that one of your staff members? we do have a money adviser erm specifically who works with erm tenants who are in rent arrears and who gives them advice on handling their financial problems. we do also, as a council, fund various grant aid money advice centres through the city, which also provide that sort of advice, not just council tenants. then it seems like there's an overlap of the same sort of service. why don't you save a bit of money by firing that debt advisor in the council and funnel all them to the debt advice bureau outside in the regular way? well there isn't actually regrettably there is so much personal debt within the city, and the problem is rising to such an extent that all the bodies that provide money advice, including for example the citizens' advice bureau, which we also fund, are overwhelmed by the numbers of people coming to them. there is absolutely no question that there are kind of money advice people in the city sitting around with nothing to do, quite the contrary, so i mean it's not a duplication, erm and of course we make sure that we that all the people involved in money advice within the city, whether funded directly or indirectly by the city council, work with each other and co-operate with each other and form a network. i mean can i just return to what queenie warley said about the rents, because basically what she said was the conservative view on council house rents was that yes they had to go up because the government decreed they had to go up, that they would have put them up earlier so people would have been paying more for longer, and the phasing that they're suggesting now what she didn't point out is that under the conservative proposal people would finish up paying even higher rents than they will have to pay this year. michael wright. yes, erm i think there's one thing which erm the general public don't realise about council house rents and housing benefit, since we've got this ring fence round the housing account the housing benefit which is paid to our tenants who are on low incomes is, in fact, paid by the other tenants. now that seems to be quite scandalous. we can't pay for that out of the general population in the city of oxford, we've got to take it out of the people who live in council houses and are paying rent and this seems to me a most iniquitous way of erm financing our people on how incomes. queenie warley from the conservatives. don't let's frighten people and think they're going to be thrown out on the street because they can't pay their rent. there are such things as rent rebates, which is subsidised by the government. there are grants by the government to housing associations, and there are houses around. admitted in the south we don't have sufficient. go to the north and there are plenty. well is queenie warley suggesting that our council tenants should decamp up to the north of england? yes. i didn't say that at all. i just erm put the north/south divide as an example. they can't go up there, we've got to do the best we possibly can, and the government is doing all it possibly can to help by providing subsidies for housing associations by providing ninety five per cent of the rent rebates which this city council gives, so on and so forth. well, i'm sorry, even conservatives don't agree with what mrs. warley has said. you may remember a few months before christmas, i think, that the five district councils in oxford county joined together to say that they felt that government housing policy was failing to deal with the growing housing crisis in oxfordshire. only one of those five councils is labour controlled, the other four are conservative, or indeed one of them's independent because the west oxfordshire councillors left the tory party because they were so disgusted with the tory government's housing policy. most conservatives admit that government housing policy is a nightmare and a nonsense and is failing to meet the needs of people for decent affordable housing. well let's talk, let's talk a little bit about the personnel that you've got on the city council now and the kinds of services in general that you're providing. you queenie warley mentioned earlier that the number of personnel has gone up by what, a hundred per cent? well, yes, it's doubled i would say, bill. in nineteen eighty i think it was five hundred and twenty, and at the moment it is about a thousand and two. and you mentioned, or phyllis mentioned, erm a money project officer, and you said that's a dual role erm ask any housewife, she'll tell you how to manage your affairs, you don't need a money project officer. well, wait a minute, i think maybe you do need a money adviser because i know what you're doing with some of your money, you're subsidising your staff meals through the county council canteen. no, no. that's the county council. yes. the city council doesn't have a canteen. yes, it's the county council canteen, but the city council is putting in money to subsidize it. how much? as far as i know it's not putting in any money at all. ah, well, all right, but we're and anyway i think that's really a red herring. i would need to check that, yes, but it's fact. the county council has a canteen. yes it's subsidized. i believe it to be subsidized by the county council, because i think of course it is, sure. it is also subsidized by the city. we must get the situation straight that the county council is the ruling authority, we are only a subsidiary as a county and we get our problems on our traffic and our highways as we are only agents to the county council, and the county council control the education of social services. what groups out of all those people working on the city council, what people would you cut their jobs of? well, we've got a problem on personnel and i think erm the conservatives would certainly look at it if they got into control. we would erm take out all superfluous posts and we'd have to find out what they were. yes, but what does that mean? you want some examples? okay, you shall have some examples. i've talked about the erm money project officer, i'll talk about the service review officer. erm some little while ago we employed a service review officer. what has he done? he's talked about all the various departments, he's erm used up half a ton of paper and erm i think was the job of the chief officers and the managers of the department. information technology, i thought, was supposed to save posts. this is frequently said. we've added on. in our information technology department we've now got thirty two posts. this is totally unnecessary. we talk about equal opportunities, we all believe in equal opportunities. it is right and proper that everyone should have the same opportunity, but this can be controlled by one officer in my belief. when you've got a staff of a thousand you don't need everybody going around. there are six, two in one department and four in another, i believe it is. erm if you look at erm the way our departments are dotted all over the city, on expensive leases in fact, we've taken property after property to accommodate our staff and they all need cleaners, so on and so forth. we certainly look into all these things. michael wright. well i'm certain that if you looked at every post in the city we could certainly save one or two, i don't think anyone would deny that, but the sort of cases that queenie's just been talking about, i think she's talking absolute nonsense. having these money advice officers does save us money, it reduces our rent arrears on our housing revenue account. it reduces a great deal of pain and hardship amongst the people who live in the city, and that is money well spent. i think an example which came up in the health and environmental protection committee recently, did we really want an aids advice officer? if one person is prevented getting aids by this officer, we've paid for that person for two years, and i think practically every one of these posts that queenie takes great offence at is producing a useful end product, and the other point is that government legislation year after year after year puts more responsibilities on the city council, the new environmental protection act is a good example. we've got to clean our streets to a higher standard more quickly. that requires more people to carry out the conservative government acts of parliament, and we are bound to employ more people to do that. yes, i have one question, speaking of the aids officer, i know that the previous aids officer left her post about a week ago. is there another one in place? i know that the post has been advertised. i'm not sure whether it's been filled. ah, so it's quite likely vacant right now. phyllis starkey, your views. well, i mean when erm queenie was eventually pushed into producing the tory hit list it really was extremely unimpressive. can i say that as part of the budget discussions, this year and last year, the labour group went over all the services that the city council provides with a fine tooth comb and argued out the case for all the spending that we then put forward in our budget. we have a vetting panel which looks at all the vacancies that arise within the city council, and decides whether it really is necessary to fill the job, or whether we can actually erm reorganize things and deliver the service with fewer people, so we are very conscious of the need to make sure that ken. ken. the city council's remains as efficient as possible, and erm most all the posts that we have at present, we believe are necessary, but we do continue to monitor them and see whether it is necessary to continue to employ all the people that we are employing at the moment. erm when queenie talks about the increase in number of people employed by the city council you cannot deliver more services with fewer people. one of the biggest increases, of course, has occurred in the treasurer's department with the advent of the poll tax. erm sixty eight extra staff we had to take on in order to implement the poll tax compared with the implementation of the rates. now she wouldn't seriously suggest that we shouldn't take on those sixty eight people, that we should just say ‘oh well, we'll just manage the poll tax somehow anyhow with fewer people than are necessary’. we have to take on the people that are necessary to deliver the services. all right. queenie warley. we agreed the sixty eight posts to start off the poll tax. we had to, obviously, but the poll tax is now all on this modern technology and it doesn't need nearly as many staff, and phyllis will remember in her budget that they did put savings in the treasurer's department for that very reason. erm michael cited an aids officer, i would say that aids is the job of the health authority. the health authority do erm provide funds for the aids post anyway, but it is their job entirely. it is a health matter. it is not a matter for a local authority, and michael talks about employing the money project officer to erm get in rent arrears and so on; this is the job of the officers who we pay large sums of money to, it is not the job to have someone special to do it, and in any case that would be peanuts compared with his salary. if you think the average salary of officer posts on the city council are twenty thousand pounds, the fact that you've got to pay their superannuation, insurance, provide them with desk space and all the necessary support, it's a terrific sum to employ a person. we, the conservatives, would consider, where necessary, using consultants — pay them the once off to do the job and then the officers, who are highly qualified and highly paid, would be there to do the job, and that's what we employ them for. well that seems like it makes a bit of sense. phyllis starkey, what do you how do you respond? well it doesn't really. what you use consultants for is when you have a one off task that it would be uneconomic to employ a member of staff to do because it would be finished in six months and then you'd be left with a surplus member of staff. any organization which erm had a policy of employing consultants to carry out its core activities would be frankly mad, because consultants cost more than your own staff, always. you only use them when you have a special one off task and the city council does use consultants where it is appropriate. but if we want to delivery good, high quality services, we have to employ the right number of people to do it, and queenie is just, you know, talking well near nonsense. i mean to say that, you know, every the average cost of a post is twenty thousand, therefore every post costs twenty thousand, is of course rubbish. we employ the people to do the jobs that need to be done within the council. we look very carefully at any new posts that we create, and we constantly look to see whether there are posts that we can get rid of erm and we have, in fact, shed a great many posts erm over the last year erm and we are constantly reviewing the efficiency of our service delivery. but as well as cost, you must always look at quality. if we are to continue to deliver quality services, and indeed if we are to increase the quality, which is what we want to do, you cannot do that on a shoe string. you have to employ sufficient people to be able to deliver the service that people expect. all right. what about twinning, do you think that that's of such a high priority that when council houses need repairs that those repairs should be put down on the ladder and said ‘i'm sorry, we can't deal with that because part of the money that we could allocate to council house repairs is being used for twinning and things like that’? well that's not a real question. as we explained at the beginning erm spending on housing is completely and absolutely separate from all the rest of the council's spending, so that even the repairs? yes, repairs as well. when you're arguing about the money to be spend on repairs, and for example the reason why we've had to get strict budgetary control on the amount of money which is being spent on repairs, is because that money all comes out of tenants' rents, and it's basically a balance — if we want to increase the erm numbers and the standard of repairs that we offer as a landlord, then it has to be met by a further increase in rents, and we think we've got the balance about right at the moment. erm if you're asking about the twinning off erm compared with spending on recreation, or on erm environmental health or something, well yes, of course, we do have to make choices. erm and the amount of money that's spent on twinning is in fact extremely small. erm i think that the amount is justified, erm i don't think it would be justified to increase spending on twinning by any large amount. i mean basically when we look at the range of council services, then you have to take decisions about the balance of spending between different priorities. yes, well michael wright, i think you want to come in there for just a second. yes, i don't want to talk on twinning. as phyllis says, it doesn't cost a great deal and oxford has a reputation — students come from all over the world to oxford. oxfam was founded here. oxford has a erm reputation of being internationally minded, and i would like to spend much more on twinning if we were allowed to, to have proper link with lyon where we're actually funding projects in lyon and links with other cities in the third world, and i believe that if we are going to try and cut that out we're being very, very narrow minded indeed. mhm. i want to move on. queenie warley, just one last word on this. well, yes, on twinning. twinning is, i think, a very important matter in our city. we learn from it. i, as the lord mayor, twinned with grenoble. i went to grenoble and discovered they had a small project on the outskirts, which had been a piece of wasteland; they ploughed it all down, replanned it, had a complete new housing estate, hotel, the lot, in less than five years, where the city council would be thinking about which bit of land to use, what to put there, how to do it, and ten years later they might think about producing a plan, and ten years after that (that's twenty years on) something would appear. so there is things to be learnt from twinning. we don't spend a tremendous amount on it. well what do you learn the thing to learn from twinning in grenoble, of course, is the huge amounts of government and regional funds which are poured into local government in grenoble and the size of the budget that grenoble city council has compared with us. the twinning budget on grenoble city council is more than a million pounds . they've got eleven twins. and the total budget of oxford city council is about fifty million. erm i mean it's interesting the lessons that queenie learnt — the lesson that i learnt from french local government is that erm the french believe in local government, and they put their money where their mouth is. the british government doesn't believe in local government. it starves it of funds and then it complains when we can't deliver the services that the expect. they believe in yes, well, i believe in traffic management, and i'm wondering if the oxford city council believes in traffic management and also tourism policy. those are the two other issues that i want to get on to in the last part of the programme. but what is happening about traffic management in oxford? the city centre is a mess. everyone knows that. what's being done about that. we know that the park and ride situation, while it's got a lot going for it, is almost a thieves paradise. so many cars are being lost from the park and ride, they're being broken into. people are afraid to use those park erm rides. it's quite disturbing. and also i'd like to talk about magdalen road and howard street and the problems that you've had there. and you've put a lot of flower pots up and down magdalen road, well apparently those flower pots and the changes you've made there, some of them very ill-advised, are costing about a hundred thousand pounds. i think you've got a lot to answer for. do you believe in traffic management in this city? let's hear that one. phyllis starkey, leader of the labour group. well first of all, can i actually correct some of the gross prejudices and inaccuracies that you've just sent out across the air, which are, frankly, extremely unhelpful. it is quite wrong to suggest that park and ride has an enormous crime record. it does not at all. yes, there have been. yes there have been no, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, you're not listening to the complaints of people, i am. yes there have been some problems and the city council some problems? has responded to those by, for example, over this year there has been closed circuit television at one of the park and rides — i think it's thornhill — in consultation with the police, and the police have told us that that has reduced the number of crimes that have occurred and we have put phyllis, this year, this year into our budget for this year to put that in all the other park and ride car parks. you should not put about something that's not true. phyllis, this year, tell me, tell me, tell me how many crimes have been committed at the park and rides? well i don't know the number off the top of my head, but i do know but you say that the number's gone down. i want to get some feel of how serious it is. yes, okay, well look if you'd actually asked me before we started, i could have actually found the number. i'm afraid well this is a rather encyclopaedic though my knowledge is well. it doesn't actually extend to having all those numbers off the top of my head. what i'm saying to you is that you are just give me a general ball park figure. misrepresenting the situation, and by so doing you scare people unnecessarily and you actually make the situation worse. i think people are already and it's irresponsible of you. people are already quite frightened. secondly, well i, you know i don't think your words have reassured them at all. well, i am quite willing to find out from the city council officers after this programme what the numbers are, if that's the issue you want explored, and we'll come back to you with the precise details. i just don't have it off the top of my head, but i am telling you are you aware that this is a significant problem? that it has reduced over the last year at thornhill and i do know that we have agreed in our budget for this coming year to put in closed circuit television at all four park and ride car parks, which presumably will reduce it at the others as well. and of course we've always had closed circuit television at the underground car park in gloucester green, and i had it from the words of another conservative councillor, councillor ann spokes, that she always uses gloucester green car park because it is so safe and so secure. so, you know, i just point out that. now on the other issues you were saying you are aware that there is a problem, though, at the park and ride. of course there's a problem, that's why we've responded to it. i am just saying good. that you have represented it out of all proportion to what it is, and you have frightened people unnecessarily. well, we'll listen to what people have to say tomorrow on the phone in. queenie warley, you want to come in there. in this instance, bill, yes there is a problem. yes, we've got to educate the public that crime must go down, and certainly we've put in closed circuit televisions and tried to fence off wherever possible. erm i think perhaps we were on erm traffic management generally, you mentioned howard street and magdalen street, which you all know you know has always been a bone of contention amongst the conservatives erm they spent two hundred thousand on it and they now want another two hundred and fifty thousand to make it permanent, and so on and so forth. and there are places all over the city. the city is difficult, you can only shift this traffic management from one place to another and do the best you can in each area, and there are cheaper ways of doing it, not erm three hundred thousand at a time. there are such things as double yellow lines and erm one could put in erm humps, i suppose, to calm traffic and so on and erm i think phyllis always says ‘well, we do the best for everybody in the community’. i would state my own area; we've put residents' parking into the south and the east and the west, but the north, as yet, has not come into it and erm traffic management is carefully monitored and erm developers that come have to provide certain amounts towards management within the area and there have been developments within north oxford and there has been money available, and we've not seen any of it yet, and we would, on certain occasions, like to know why. we think there is a case well haven't you asked that question? what answers do you get. well the answer is that residents' parking was offered in north oxford i think about ten years ago, when it got to the top of the city's priority list. there was a public meeting, and the residents said we don't want it. the public meeting was held in august when the majority of people were away, i'm afraid, bill. that was one of those things. they portray the fact that, yes, they come into public consultation — yes the do, not always at the right time. but things have changed since then. i said, there's loads of building going on and we have had money to do this and it's jolly well time. actually, residents' parking is coming under review. the officers are about to do a new review, and a the moment all costs of erm residents' parking is borne centrally, and we the conservatives think that if erm there was a charge on permits to cover the cost it would give a change to other areas of the city, and the majority of people would be prepared erm to pay, and i think this is coming up in the officer's review. i hope it is. michael wright from the liberal democrats. well, i'm erm i think one of the places where i do part company from the labour party is i don't think they give enough priority to getting the traffic out of oxford. i'm very impressed indeed by the oxford preservation trust study and i would have a what did that study reveal? well a number of things. i've mentioned a few of them. i would have a carrot and stick approach. the carrot would be much better park and ride, which is what they are talking about. now what the labour group are doing is super, but it doesn't go far enough. we don't just need closed circuit t v, we need lighting on all the park and ride sites, we need proper heated warm, clean waiting rooms, supervised with a person with a glass window, who can see what's happening there, who has all the monitoring screens and can look at the closed circuit t v and what's happening all round the car park. that all costs money, and erm there are various ways we could suggest of raising that money, but that needs to be done. once you've done that, you can then start taking really strong action about keeping traffic out of the city, because you've got the alternative. you must get the alternative there first, and we haven't got it at the moment. i think we should look at parking spaces, because in the past we've felt that if the universities and colleges have parking spaces we let them bring the traffic in the city. that is absolutely disastrous. we get the whole thing seized up for an hour and a half in the morning and an hour and a half in the evening. we have to tax those parking spaces, make them use the park and drive, but we've got to get the carrot there first and the carrot is a much better operated park and drive. i know they're moving towards it. i would want to move much more quickly towards it. what are you doing about the city centre, phyllis starkey? well, i mean traffic there is a mess. i mean i think everybody would agree with that. erm there is basically, as you know, and as queenie at the beginning, it is actually the county council who is the highway authority and we are their agent. the city and the county councils have looked very seriously at the erm traffic study that the oxford preservation trust commissioned, and they are working on it and working on ways of implementing it within the city centre. like, for instance, chapter and verse here. well the proposals are being worked up, so there aren't actual firm detailed proposals at the moment. but what george street. but they would be on the lines they would be on there are erm measures being taken at the moment well what do you mean george street? phyllis. to reduce through traffic in george street. i was just going to deal with that one. there are measures being taken to reduce the amount of through traffic in george street, which will benefit the pedestrians in that street. what sort of measures? erm basically i think it's a no entry from broad street except to buses and erm other public transport and cycles. so to stop it being a through route, because it's not part it's not a necessary route for private cars to go down, and it is, of course, extremely important because the entrance to the bus station is off that route. erm i think that the way in which i hope the city and county will move forward is step by step. there is always a great temptation erm to say ‘well the city centre is such a complicated area, we should try and get absolutely everything right before we move forward’ and that i think is a recipe for endless delay, because it's so complicated, it's really difficult to get everything right. i believe that we should move forward step by step. the george street measures are a first step. we should then move to do things about, for example, turl street and erm cornmarket itself and gradually move on that way towards improving the city centre for pedestrians. the george street scheme put forward by the labour group's a crazy scheme really. it closes off the street half way and you know george street is a commercial street erm delivery lorries will go up and not know where to turn round and come back or what entrance or exit they can use, and also because traffic can't use it it will simply put a terrific amount on another of the main streets, namely beaumont street. so i don't think the george street solution that they're trying to work up is a solution at all. i know it's difficult, i know the city is highly congested and we can't plough down beautiful buildings in order to make better roads and so on, and that isn't what we want to do. we want to use the park and ride. we want to encourage people to use the park and ride. that is part of the balanced transport policy which was, i believe, brought out in about nineteen seventy three and has been reviewed erm all the time, all along. it is, of course, limiting congestion and growth and encouraging public transport and improving the environmental conditions generally on both main roads and residential streets. and also one must bear in mind we've got to maintain the commercial life of the city. well, i'm sure everyone would agree with you on that one. there's a lot more to discuss on this one. i'm sorry that our time is up, but many thanks to my three guests today; to phyllis starkey, the leader of the labour group on oxford city council; to michael wright, from the liberal democrat benches; and from queenie warley from the conservatives. that's it from me, bill heine. thanks for joining us. goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today we'll be looking at john major's first one hundred days in office. we have a prime minister with un-thatcherlike understatement, and wily pragmatism and body language of the friendly bank manager next door, or so says an article in today's guardian. they also go on to say that his norwegian charisma is just right for the nineties, an aura of realistic, if lowered, expectations. well, what do you think of john major? how about his comment about trying to create a classless society, when one of his first acts as premier was to create a new hereditary baronetcy for dennis thatcher. is this a man of much more style than substance, and what test would you use to determine whether he's had a good hundred days or a bad hundred days? well i'm joined by marianne talbot. she's a feminist, also a philosophy don at pembroke college, and a member of the three hundred group, a group determined to get three hundred women in parliament by the year two thousand. and also dr. terry clarke. terry clarke is the treasurer of the henley constituency. he's also a member, on the conservative side, on the oxfordshire county council. terry clarke, welcome to the programme. thank you. how would what test would you use to determine whether or not john major has had a good first one hundred days? what would you look at? what are your priorities when you try to assess someone in that period of time. i know it's very short — it started in the roosevelt era when people looked at his first one hundred days. the whole idea of judging by one hundred days was resurrected in the kennedy time and people applied that to wilson and to heath and to margaret thatcher, and maybe it's just a media hype, but i think it does give us some view and i think we need more of a view on this man, because a lot of people are saying will the real john major please stand up. yes, as you rightly say, it's not possible to judge anyone in erm a hundred days. i think one is largely on judging people in the hands of the media, looking at it from an ordinary party member i think it's the air he gives, whether it's an air of confidence competence and perhaps and air of confidence, the way he handles himself in the house of commons, the things that he actually says, because within that time you're not able, in fact, to have achieved much erm parliamentary wise, one very much has to judge a person by what he has. he's been lucky of course, in that respect, in that he has had something to occupy himself over the last few months as far as the gulf war is concerned, and in that respect, of course , i think i don't i think it would be very difficult to fault him. in with reference to what he's done on the international stage, or with reference to the war only? no, with reference to all, all bits of it, including the international erm stage and including the war side of it. you can't separate the two because of the nature of the dispute. well how do you think he is distinguished from mrs thatcher in his approach to europe? erm well we haven't really had time yet to see his approach erm to europe. i happen to have been a keen supporter of the way of margaret thatcher's attitude to europe, highly sceptical. erm i think that perhaps john major might be a little more friendly, although i believe his views are similar, his approach may be different. well that brings us back to the idea that he may be a man of style, rather than substance, in terms of differentiating himself from mrs thatcher. it's too early to say. i, with my knowledge of him before that in his previous offices, i would say that he was very much a man of substance. you only have to look at his background. you don't get from where he came to where he is now without having some degree of substance. i'm just wondering, though, if that substance is distinct and different from the substance of the thatcher years. i think that's what people are trying to look for, the differences. well i mean they are very contrasting characters. erm mrs margaret thatcher was a one off erm she was prime minister for eleven can you confirm that? you're absolutely certain she was a one off? well, in that she's the first woman prime minister, she's the longest serving prime minister of erm in this century. in that respect, up to now, she's a one off . right. so you think it's unlikely that we'll have another margaret thatcher? i think that erm certainly in the next erm in the immediate future i should be very surprised if we have another margaret thatcher. we may have another woman prime minister, but not necessarily another margaret thatcher. well if we have another woman prime minister in the near future that woman would have to rise, in the conservative party at least, from a position outside the cabinet, because there are no women in the cabinet. marianne talbot, you're a philosophy don at pembroke college, a feminist and member of the three hundred group, which wants to get three hundred women into parliament by the year two thousand, what do you think of john major's treatment of women so far? erm i'm note sure i like the way you've put the question actually ‘treatment of women’. i know nothing about his treatment of women; erm all i know about is that he chose not to elect a woman to the cabinet. well couldn't that be described as or select a women for the cabinet. as treatment of women. that doesn't say well, no, i think something more than just erm he's picked the best people for the job. i think one has to be very careful here. erm i'm not someone who's for, for example, erm positive discrimination where that means choosing a woman when there's a better man erm and i think that erm although some feminists do, certainly it's not a necessary condition of being a feminist, and i certainly don't, and i think that if john major erm sincerely looked at all the women who could have been in his cabinet, and sincerely judged their abilities erm compared to the men who were available, erm and decided that the women weren't ready, then i think that's, that's a possible position. i mean i don't think that he should be castigated for not having women just because he hasn't got a woman. that's a possible position if, i mean, yes, that's a possible position. a probable description of the way he went about it? well erm are you prepared to accuse him of insincerity? i'm, no, i'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment. i think we'll wait and see. what's the doubt? what's the doubt that you're giving him the benefit of? the doubt is that he perhaps didn't take into consideration of the women who are available. i mean people like linda chalker and erm so on. erm that's the doubt and that doubt is going to be either borne out or shown to be wrong by the rest of john major's incumbents, so at the moment i'll certainly give him the benefit of the doubt. all right. and terry clarke, could yes, could i come back on that. yes, i mean i think erm some of us were a bit disappointed perhaps that he didn't erm find erm a woman to put into his cabinet. i think there are one or two what, you were disappointed in the quality of the women? or in the quality of no, i, i was disappointed that he didn't erm put a women in his cabinet. erm we had mention of one woman, tokenism. well this is the thing that worries me a little bit, but can i say that worries me too. that two of his chief advisers at number ten downing street appointed recently, one is sarah hogg, the wife of douglas hogg, who is a writer on economics in the journalist, and the other is judith chaplin, who was his adviser in the treasury. she left when she got adopted as conservative candidate for newbury, so he is not without erm competent female advice, and some would say perhaps they have more power than the having a woman colleague in the cabinet. yes. why would you suggest that, i'm curious. i want to pick you up there. why would you say that? more power of influencing the prime minister. i mean politicians pay a great heed to the people they erm seek advice from. in fact one of the criticisms of erm margaret thatcher, not that i go along with it, but sometimes she listens more to her political advisers than her cabinet colleagues. one thinks of alan walters and erm professor brian griffiths. although this is true, i think there is a bit of a worry about that. i mean the thing is the economic advisers, the prime minister's advisers, are behind the scenes. they are not known to people. and i think that there is a very strong argument erm for getting women in the cabinet on the basis that if women are seen to be in the cabinet they are seen as competent, they're seen as excellent politicians, and that's why i go for a form of positive discrimination, which is that if you've got two people who are equally well qualified, and if erm mr major decided that a man and a women were equally well qualified, then i think he should have chosen the woman erm well there's an argument to that's what say that women have been discriminated against for so long that they just haven't had the opportunities to rise up through the ranks, and if they are ever going to achieve the kind of representation that they ought to achieve just by the sheer numbers that the represent in the population, apart from the quality, and there are a lot of people who would say that women are probably rather superior erm to a lot of men at an equal level well i think that's a sexist thing to say, actually, saying that men are superior no, no, no, hold on. no, just wait a minute, no. when they rise to an equal level, like for instance if i have a choice between going to a woman doctor and a man doctor and they're both on the gp list, i will choose the woman, because the woman has had to fight tooth and nail, probably, and work much harder, to get at an equal level with the man, so i would suspect that i'm getting value for and quality there by going for the woman. well i think that when i said that i think that given a man and a woman of equal qualifications i was assuming that that had been taken into account. i mean at the moment of choice you're faced with a set of people, including, let's say, one man and one woman, who on paper match each other and who perhaps, even if you've adjusted for a possibility of the woman's having to fight and so on, they're equal on paper. i then think positive discrimination how do you adjust for that? is justified. well, by taking into account things like she's had to struggle and so on, and if her qualifications are actually as good then maybe she's had to work harder. all the things you've just said. could i terry clarke. i think the basic problem is erm it goes back further than that and it comes down to the organisation that my colleague here belongs to. the trouble is, of course, that there aren't enough women in the house to choose from. well, quite. and if we had more women and this the fault here lies with, in all parties, with constituency selection committees yes. where, as i think many people would say, most of the discrimination against them often comes from women themselves well i think, yes. or what one might call the old, old fashioned conservative women . i agree with everything you've said until you got to the last bit. it's true that some women are not keen on erm electing women, but then some men probably are keen on electing women. i mean i think that erm you're quite right, the biggest stopping point for women is the erm selection committee, but that's exactly what the three hundred group is working for. it's erm, for those of you who don't know what it is, it's an all-party organization. we welcome people from every party, it doesn't really matter which party, or even if they belong to no party, who are just committed to seeing a representative representation, seeing more women in there, because women in this country, just as a matter of fact, have a rather different experience from most men, and if you're making a decision then you want there the people who have had a wide range of experience, who can bring that experience to bear on making the decision. that's why we want more women in, not because the population is fifty two per cent female, because there are a lot of children in the population. most people don't think that children should be represented in parliament by children. i mean realize that would be a very bad analogy with women, but nevertheless i think just the analogy on numbers is not a good enough argument for women. well it does seem that women are most unrepresented, and i for one would recommend positive discrimination. i see nothing wrong with that. what's the argument against it? well i think the argument's do you think it's yes, i think argument against it is why should we take somebody of less quality than somebody who's available? no, i think the population of britain deserves to be represented by the best, and i don't care whether that best is a man or a woman but then you have as long as he or she is the best. but you'll most likely have what we have now, then, a self-selecting coterie right, but of the best, who happen to be all men. yes, but there are no, we don't and maybe it's time we punctured they are self selecting, and what we've got to puncture is not the erm idea that the best goes forward, which is what you're suggesting, erm but the idea of this self-selecting bit, it's quite true that it tends to be men who put themselves forward for selection and election, and women don't. well the three hundred group is committed to trying to change that. we're involved in letting people know about how few women there are, getting them to think about why there are so few women, training them — we have training sessions in assertiveness, public speaking — we help women get places in council, all sorts of different councils, and in national government. do you have and on the public bodies. any indication that john major is sympathetic to your aims in the three hundred group? he's actually stated that he we have letter in which he states that he erm the three hundred group has his full support. yes, what's he doing about his words then? any actions that are speaking louder than his words? well one thing he didn't do was put a woman in the cabinet, and, as i have said, that's something we've got an eye on, obviously. i think it worth it sounds ominous there marianne. yes. terry clarke. i think it worth pointing out that of course erm when margaret thatcher was prime minister for a brief time i think lady young was leader of the house of lords in her cabinet, but apart from that there was never another women cabinet minister during her time as leader, so but it's an interesting thing that you think that because there's a woman prime minister she should choose women. i mean there's no reason because we haven't got men's issues, because all issues are men's issues, nobody expects a male prime minister to go for any particular issue, but why should we expect a woman prime minister to go particularly for certain issues? no i wasn't saying that women are as different as men. i was just saying that in that respect there's not really much between john major and margaret thatcher no because she didn't erm wasn't particularly selective of women . agreed. yes. in her cabinet. i should think probably mrs. thatcher would send a letter to the three hundred group saying that she supported your aims, didn't she? well, yes, she did indeed. well then there's no distinction she did more than that, though, bill ah, well. actually, she did say that erm she sent back every short list that didn't have a woman's name on it. she did that latterly. erm john major hasn't yet done that, but the poor chap's only been in office a hundred days, i mean this is a hundred days today. that's what this programme is about, and in that time i mean i think, i was thinking actually as terry was speaking, erm you said that it was not clear that you can judge somebody on a hundred days, and i must say i agree with that, and i think at the moment in the last hundred days we've been at war and it's impossible to judge a new prime minister, who's come into office in the right at the beginning of what potentially could have been a very nasty war. i don't think we've seen anything of what john major erm is likely to do yet. we can't really get a feel for the man at the moment, except as a personality, and that is coming across through the media as terry points out, various aspects of his personality. and even there it's actually quite difficult because of course it's so tempting at the moment just to compare him to mrs. thatcher. we don't see him in his own right. you've raised two issues that i wanted to talk about, that's the mrs. thatcher card and also the media manipulation. do you it's amazing when he stops at a happy eater to have a fry-up, that there happens to be television cameras and the world's press there. erm when he eats and ice cream cornet outside the house of commons there happens to be everybody around. i mean he's erm he's got them working for him, doesn't he? i seem to remember, bill, way back in 1979 during the election campaign, margaret thatcher had a small calf pressed upon her, which she stood holding in a field in east anglia or something, so i mean it's not just erm john major. all leading politicians, whether they're labour, conservative, liberal democrats, they all have the media working for them because that's the way politics is these days. and it's the way the media is these days too. these days too, yes. i mean they set up their own photo opportunities at every opportunity, as we all know. yes, but particularly with reference to john major, i think he's had an amazing honeymoon and people are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt as you were about his quote treatment of women unquote, and i suspect that the media have been particularly sympathetic and wearing kid gloves with him, and i find that the role of the media is to probe and to pry and to yes, well, but not in war, bill. ah. i mean that's what i mean about this hundred days, we've been at war, and i think the job of the press, i mean is not is to support and to build up and to bolster the prime minister? one of it's aims, i think i think that's not no, no, no, i certainly wouldn't put it that way erm but certainly in times of war one of the jobs of the press, i think, is to erm keep and eye on the morale of the country and that sort of thing erm oh, so you think that the whole appreciation of john major, the whole perception of him has been knocked sideways by the press's need yes, i do. i think that the press has felt a need to represent john major as a man as a leader to whom we can all look in whose care we can all feel safe and all that sort of thing, because the media feels pressure to keep the morale of the country up in war time. well then following your argument and so we have and it's now that the war's over, we'll now see the press pressing and probing and trying to erm undermine john major in the way they've erm but following your argument that would indicate that the image we have now is a concocted one made up by the press to a large extent. to a large extent i think it is, bill, but then i think our image of most politicians is a concocted one, made up by the press. i mean if we look at i mean the woman's erm the portrayal of female politicians i think is a very good case in point. i mean when you think of erm the way that, say, mrs. currie has been portrayed, mrs. thatcher indeed, i think an awful lot of that was filtered through the eyes of the press. i mean i've never met mrs. thatcher, the only thing i know about her the only facts i have about her i've got through the press. mhm. well, yes, terry clarke. yes, i erm i have met her on one or two occasions and erm the press image is oh, excuse me, i'm just wondering what does one do when one meets the prime minister? does one say yes ma'am, or no, no, you erm she's a very friendly, kindly person, easy to talk to. in fact i sat next to her at a lunch in abingdon a few years ago, and erm this image one got of her of not being a listener is totally untrue erm every time she turned to me it was to listen to what i had to say. the reason why i didn't get much of a word in edgeways was because my lady chairman on the other side of her wouldn't let kept attracting her attention, so i erm there is to a lot extent a false image. i'm not saying it's all false, but the media does highlight certain erm public aspects of people. i'm not criticising. that's what, in many ways, what they're for. i mean, for instance, i haven't much sympathy with edwina currie because i think erm any false image because she is a very media orientated person and erm yes, but like a lot of these politicians they exploit the media as much as the media exploit them. yes, but i think the interesting thing in this case is you had a woman who you might went against her own interests i think. i mean she was warning the population that there's erm salmonella in eggs, and i her party is actually traditionally in the interests of the farmers and things, and she took the interests of the population first and she was absolutely hauled through the hedges by the press. i don't understand it at all. i mean that's the sort of thing if the press decides that somebody's not a good thing, then that person is not a good thing and almost nothing he or she can do can change it. so what we're picking over on the plate now is not so much john major, but the treatment of the press can i make a point on this terry clarke. because this is the way one of the great successors of the previous government, leading up to nineteen eighty seven, margaret thatcher was getting a very bad press at a time. she then appointed two people, one was edwina currie as a junior minister, and the other was norman tebbit as party chairman, who are both media people. the press immediately took the heat off margaret thatcher, went for norman tebbit and went for edwina currie, and i think that was a part of the success in the build up to the last election, because at a time when the pressure really was on the prime minister, like it was a couple of when in the last few months of margaret thatcher's leadership, that's what happened. that's my interpretation of it, anyway. marianne talbot. yes. can i say, bill, it's very interesting that in a programme erm which is supposed to be talking about john major we've in fact discussion erm getting women into parliament, we've discussed margaret thatcher a lot, we've discussed the press portrayal of all politicians, and in fact we've hardly mentioned john major. and i think that this is actually a very interesting thing. john major does seem to be somebody who — it's very difficult to tell whether this is intrinsically, or just in comparison with margaret thatcher — is rather colourless. he doesn't, i mean he's a very nice chap, i think everyone would agree with that, erm but the question is no, not everyone. well most people would agree with that. well all right. this is one person who can't be quoted, but apparently this had to do with the description of john major during that leadership crisis. apparently he promised not to attack douglas hurd personally, but then quotes stitched him up and hung him out to dry over the classlessness thing. hurd ended up by saying he went to eton on a scholarship. and then when he'd won he offered heseltine the had of friendship and promptly he gave him the poll tax, which will finish him for ever. classic major exercises. no-one would object, but it was quite ruthless. maybe he's not quite so nice. well actually i feel a lot happier if you say that, because can i actually one of the first questions you asked, which i never got a chance to answer, though terry did, was which what sort of criteria one would use to say that a prime minister's good and erm i was sort of thinking of that as terry was answering and i think the thing i came up with is you want somebody who represents, or is sensitive to at least, a very wide swathe of views across the population, but also someone who's intelligent and caring enough to take into account the minority views, and you want somebody who's aim is to make most of the people happy most of the time, sort of thing, erm but who's also prepared to take unpopular steps erm if he believes it's necessary. but then i thought actually all this adds up to what you want is someone you feel safe with, someone you feel is going to look after the country and its people well, and i thought is major somebody i feel safe with, and i thought well in some ways because i don't think he's going to turn round and do anything nasty to me, but on the other hand erm i wonder — i'm going back to your question — is he a man of substance? is he somebody you can rely on in a crisis? and i don't think the gulf war is a test of that. well what about the economy? the economy certainly is a test of that now that is going to be a test. now wait a minute. it's not going to be a test, it has been a test. he was a chancellor. i mean this recession, he's not the teflon prime minister. he can't say that it won't stick to him. it certainly has stuck already, because he partially manufactured it, didn't he as the chancellor? yes, can i come in here. of course terry clarke. this is probably the test of the next hundred days. yes. this is where you will see the erm substance of john major. i think he erm to be prime minister, you do have to have a strand of ruthlessness mhm. and i think he probably has got that, but if you can come out with all those qualities and still be regarded as mister nice guy erm and at the moment he comes across as mister nice guy. i think i'm sort of rather reminded of when somebody said that ronald regan was going to stand for erm president. someone said for president, no, jimmy stewart for president, but ronnie regan as best friend. erm you know, that's erm the sort of image, but, erm you know, i think at the moment he comes across as mister nice guy and erm i think that's a very good quality if he's got the substance, which i think he has, beneath that. marianne talbot. well one of the things that i think has been very striking about john major, and unfortunately again i'm comparing him with mrs. thatcher, but it's very difficult not to, thank goodness she wasn't around during the gulf war — that's my feeling — because i don't think i could have borne the idea of erm any more rejoice and up an atom and things like that. i think the war was a very sad, necessary step, and to take it further by rejoicing is not a good thing. and i'm very unhappy about john major's acceptance of the idea of a victory parade. that worries me a bit, and yet having why, why does that worry you? well because i think a thanksgiving service for victory and for praying for those who've died on both sides, i think that's perfectly reasonable, but a victory parade, goodness a hundred thousand iraquis died. ours died only in tens. i think it's quite improper. it's like the school big boy who's beaten up a first year and could i well what do you think. i want to ask her about this issue. what do you think that this says about john major, the fact that he wants a victory parade? well again, the doubt comes into it. is he the sort that he actually wants one, or has he bowed to the advisers that he's got from the war office and so on who say the soldiers need it? i mean i can see that a lot of people i mean i think that we should thank our men and women who were in the gulf, of course we should, erm i'm questioning only the way that we've chosen to do it, by a victory parade. i think that's rather tasteless in the circumstances and i'm questioning you about what you think this says about john major, and you're coming back and saying well i don't know because how can we well i don't know, because i don't distinguish where the king's advisors are saying something? with mrs. thatcher you never got the feeling that she was being advised against her wishes, with john major i'm not so sure that's true. i think i mean i got the impression on several occasions that he's actually quite nervous in the post. i mean goodness he would be inhuman if he wasn't erm and i don't yet feel safe that he's his own man. ah, now we're getting a little bit toward the meat here. let's go to terry clarke. well could i i mean this is of course one of the criticisms that one had to bear about mrs. thatcher about erm they say he's not his own man, that to me indicates that he may be taking advice. on the question of the parade, i think one's got to realize that in fact a service erm to the soldiers a parade is a part of, you know, a part of the service. one has remembrance parades, i don't think there'll be anything gung ho about this. and if i might just come in on this thing that's always thrown up against mrs. thatcher about her rejoice, she said rejoice when south georgia had been retaken and the rejoice was because it appeared to have been done without any casualties — that was what she was rejoicing for, not the victory erm well i wouldn't want to put words in mrs. thatcher's mouth, now if you're man enough to do that go ahead. . no that, that, that, this is erm this irritates me. not i'm not blaming marianne, but she's sort of picked up things from the media and the media have said oh rejoice attitude, but that particular rejoice was because there were no casualties okay, i take it back at that particular occasion. about that rejoice, but you must admit there is a gung ho attitude of mrs. thatcher oh yes, i mean i think she would have erm handled this very differently, but very well, but she's not there, so, you know, let's say that john well now wait a minute now i've been much happier not to have mrs. thatcher around. well, that's an interesting one. you say she's not there, but is that actually the case? do we know she's not there? oh, i there's one thing he's her boy. yes, but mrs., mrs. thatcher is a very clever and very shrewd politician. it would be more than she's also a party politician no, she is a very staunch, and always has been, member of the conservative party, and she would not erm upset the party at this present time by being seen as the person driving behind well exactly. i couldn't have phrased it better. she has kept out. she wouldn't want to be seen. that's precisely the point. thank you very much. no, i suspect that erm the we have a very high class media these days. they would soon have picked it up had she been erm sending secret messages telling him what to do, and it is a john major cabinet. it is a different cabinet. it is a different style. erm we're starting again and there is no evidence, and i am sure that margaret thatcher isn't having any input at the moment. right, so you think that margaret thatcher, having been prime minister for over a decade and having nominated her heir apparent, and having left in erm a rather tearful manner and being pushed out, you think that she said ‘right, from now on it's hands off’? he didn't say that, bill. no, i didn't say that. she is entitled to make any contribution as a member of parliament, and should john major want to seek advice i'm sure he would, but i don't i am certain in my own mind that that hasn't happened at the moment. she's been trying to adjust herself it's to a backbench politician's view. all it's interesting though yes. that she actually has officially erm the prime minister's political adviser briefs her on events in the war, or has been briefing her. that's a matter of courtesy. that's well, i was going to say it's difficult to know whether that is that the prime that's a matter of courtesy. is ex-prime minister heath also briefed? i would well, i think certainly immediate predecessors. . nice point. but certainly i think i mean during the falklands war margaret thatcher was briefing opposition leaders and other senior politicians as to what was going on. this is a courtesy in british politics. that does tend to happen. i understand that actually mr kinnock wasn't being brief this time. in fact mrs. thatcher was the only one. mr kinnock and erm paddy ashdown had to actually go into the commons to you know who the first person who knocked on mrs. thatcher's door in the house of commons at the start of the falklands war, or when it was being planned, it was harold macmillan, offering any advice, you know, if she could use his advice, and the one bit of advice he gave her was appoint a small war cabinet to deal with it, and she took that advice. yes, marianne. well actually, if you have more to say on this topic fine, i was actually going to change it slightly to discuss his apparent classlessness. now, that's what i wanted to go to as well. ah, well we think alike bill. we do indeed, marianne. that's a dangerous combination. . before we erm before i came out today i was actually talking to some of the staff at pembroke college and mindful of coming on her i thought i'd just ask them what they thought wait a minute, by the staff do you mean the scouts, or do you mean yes, i mean the scouts. ah, well yes, i wonder how i caught that? yes. go ahead. well anyway erm they it was interesting, they all seemed rather positive and the reason they were positive is because they perceive him as classless, as somebody who's actually come up the hard way, who's experienced the down side of life and who's nevertheless, through hard work and perseverance and so on, triumphed over that, and actually reached the highest post in the land, and erm they seemed to feel that there was a erm that this was a good thing, that somebody who's had experience of erm the less privileged side of life, somebody who, and i quote ‘wasn't born with a silver spoon in is mouth, and didn't got to public school and that sort of thing knows more about what's life for the average person’ and i agree with that. i think that is actually something that i like about him, the fact that he left school early, that he did actually have to struggle. he's a self-made man and that sort of thing. well he has an army of people sleeping rough in london, and if this the cold well he's inherited an army of people sleeping rough. but he could have done something quite dramatic and significant there. what has he done? how has he shown that this man, who's come up from poverty, understands poverty and is prepared to do something about it. i don't think he's shown much, do you? well, can we get back to the basic thing about classlessness. i mean this isn't a new thing, this is one of the basic erm tory virtues that i was erm brought up with. it hasn't started with john major. it's based on wait, wait, wait, let me understand you. it's based on the equality of opportunity we talk about, that it should, no matter what your background, erm where you come from, as marianne rightly says, you are able to get right to the top. margaret thatcher was one of the greatest supporters of a classless society, not just i'm not just talking about the silver spoon in one's mouth, it's the sometimes the stainless steel spoons of the middle class that erm that is a lot of the trouble, and no-one took on the establishments of the professional bodies erm and who have been over the years had a great deal of privilege in this country more than margaret thatcher . i'd like to understand what you're saying. you're saying that margaret thatcher, lady margaret thatcher, wife of sir dennis, baronet, is a great believer in the classless society? yes. yes the classless society, no matter what background you come from you should have the ability to get to the top. well why didn't she put that into practice by well refusing bill, you've got to distinguish things here. i mean class one doesn't become a different class because one's has a title. made a lady, or made i mean she was given that title, or actually i'm dead against the fact it was her husband who was given the title, erm but to abstract away from that at the moment, somebody who's been in public service all their lives and who's devoted much of their life to the cause of the people, i mean i realize that an awful lot of people would think that margaret thatcher hasn't done that, but let's say that, for the sake of the argument, that at least that's what she intended for the time being yes. erm she's been given a reward, if you like. now a reward in terms of status, by being given a word to put in front of her name. well is status this is not a change of class, this is just a reward. what do you mean by class. let's get back to basics. well i was going to ask you that, what you meant by class. i mean it going back to the days i think it was professor jode, it depends what you mean by class. i mean you came out with a wonderful statement when you were advertising this programme. you talk about the classless society and then his next step is to make dennis thatcher a baronet, that, if i may say, is a media non-sequitur if ever i if ever i heard it. honours are one thing, and it's not necessarily to do with class, because any one of any class can get on yes. you may agree with honours or not, we've done this programme a few year ago, bill , but classless is erm, as i understand it, is to give anyone in this country erm the opportunity to get to the top. i mean dammit, there are people in the house of lords who started life far worse off than john major, i am sure, so, you know, what do you mean by class? well i suppose it has something to do with people's expectations of themselves. yes, that's right, yes. their erm this lovely word called breeding. is it not it has to do with the way you speak, the way you erm where you went to school, what connections you have, what values you hold. yes, but one i mean one of the things that i think is often smuggled in to discussions of class is value judgements erm along the lines of one class is better than another. i've always thought of class in the following way — i think that, that class is broadly, or used to be broadly, ways in which people live. there are different ways of living a life, different erm cultures, different interests, different likes and dislikes, and on the whole the class that you came from would be an indication of what sort of things you were likely to enjoy, say, of what sort of things you were likely to think were proper, were improper, and this sort of thing. you would suggest, then, that there's the beethoven class and the mozart class? yes, something like that, but again you're importing a value judgement here and a madonna class? yes, i don't see but it doesn't seem to me that there's anything intrinsically better about beethoven than madonna. i prefer beethoven, actually i'm not sure i do prefer beethoven, but had you said bach i would have preferred that, but i don't see that that i mean you're implying that that makes me better, or at least makes me think i'm better than somebody who likes madonna, and that i don't agree with. i like to think there's a qualitative difference between bach and madonna. bill, could i come back to a quotation by another former tory prime minister in the nineteen sixties, erm they were ragging old douglas hume unmercifully, the labour party did, when he was made prime minister, and, you know, erm all's fair in politics, and harold wilson, i think, made the comment that the democracy of this country had ground to a halt with the appointment of the fourteenth earl, and douglas hume, in his sort of very self-deprecating way and his very modest way, says ‘well, you know, i suppose if one were to ask, he's probably the fourteenth mr wilson’. now, you know, that is the sort of attitude we've made this class thing. it's grown up over the years erm in fact i don't think it counts as much, nearly as much now, as it used to. i mean look at myself, my father was a doctor, his father was a schoolteacher, so the way one used to look at things, that immediately when i was born put me in the middle class erm bracket. now i don't think that is erm should be important any more. it should be on ability, on what you make of yourself, as you say. i think class in that respect is erm is not as important as it used to be, and quite right too. the barriers have been broken down. one can move erm between classes. well erm i think one of the it's interesting, when i was in australia i'm not so sure a lot of people sleeping rough on the streets i felt of london would agree with you. in as ah, well, yes, that's an interesting thing actually because it's not clear that the people sleeping on the streets in london belong to any class. erm i mean oh, we'll just put those people outside the equation? yes, but don't say it as if i'm doing that. i'm saying as a matter of fact they are outside the equation, and that's what's wrong, because they're certainly not upper class, they're not middle class, but nor are they working class, are they? i mean they're not working, that's the problem. they aren't able to get jobs, they're unable to care for themselves, they're unable to erm find homes for themselves. they don't belong in any class and therefore they're cut out from society. they have no place, no means of helping themselves. well let's talk about this. could i make terry clarke. a comment about that. erm yes, erm it's very sad that there are people, and something should be done about it, but if you were to have a society, a perfect society, where there was no need for people to sleep out rough, or to sleep rough, you would still find some people who would sleep rough. yes, but on the assumption that not everyone's choosing it no, but you can, you can build any amount of hostels you like that could accommodate all, all the people that there are, but you would still find a proportion of those who don't want to come into the system, so, you know well, even if that's true, though, terry, i mean what we're interested in is those who are sleeping out there who don't choose to. oh yes, i think one's got and there seem to be a lot of those. something must i would hope that something will be done about those who erm want to well so would i. we all would, but the question is is john major the man to grasp that mettle? i think john major will grasp the mettle. why? why? yes. because he's a caring man . erm he'll have to eventually. i mean i do think that this is we haven't yet, i go back to the claim i made before that in the hundred days since he's been prime minister his concentration has been taken up by the gulf war, obviously. he's now we're now going to face the test of john major in the next hundred days. maybe john major now we're going to see what he does for the economy, what he does for the underclass, and so on well maybe john major is a and what he's like in himself. reactive kind of person, in which he things are happening to him, like for instance he's quite famous because of the war. that was something that was foisted upon him. he erm was, well his profile was raised in public consciousness by this mortar attack on him. erm and but what is he striding out there in front of people saying this is where i see the vision for the country leading us. i think he might maybe he doesn't do it like that, maybe he does it by saying it by god bless at the end of his broadcast, or appearing in the gulf with a polo necked jumper. yes, but i mean i think that's nice. but can i say something erm, bill, we're at the end of a parliament erm john major another year to go, there could be yes, but john major has come in late. as marianne said, we've got we've had the war. i suspect that we will find that john major is both pro-active and reaction, because in the next few months erm up to some time before june nineteen ninety two, there has to be a manifesto produced for the next election, and i think it's in that you will probably see the pro-active side of john major and his colleagues. it's not a one man show. he is just, i suppose, primus inter pares, as a prime minister, and erm that's it is, as we've both said, the next hundred days or so that you will probably see the real john major. yes, we all know that he prefers consensus rather than confrontation and i suppose maybe because he has that kind of style he might be just what the doctor ordered for the nineties. he may be. he may be not. we don't know, but erm we do live in a confrontational parliamentary system. i believe that john major, if the erm situation demanded, could be as confrontational as the next person is, but i tell you one thing do you remember old edwina currie saying in an interview, she was talking about john major and she said ‘oh, don't worry about john major, he can hold his own, he's as tough as old boots’. yes, oh well i'm glad to hear that. one thing i can i, can i, yes i was going to tell you a story probably about john major briefly. that he was at a meeting where margaret thatcher was speaking, and he erm made a comment about what the people in his constituency perceived about something, and she got up and said ‘now that's totally wrong’. he said ‘i didn't say it was right’ he said, ‘i said that is what they perceived’and he turned to the person next to him afterwards, he says ‘well, that's finished me for any promotion a job for promotion’. that was when he was a backbencher, but it didn't . well that's a story about mrs. thatcher, isn't it? yes. i'd just like to say one of the things that i feel very sad about, bill, is when i see the line up of all the people in the the heads of state, or things like that, i no longer see a dress, i no longer see a hat, and i still haven't got used to the prime minister ‘he’. i don't know whether i can take a male prime minister seriously, bill. marianne i wouldn't disagree with that . marianne talbot that's quite unfair, i think. but we've been asking during this programme will the real john major please stand up. well, as john major would say, you'll have to wait and see if i may say so. well, that's it from me and many thanks to my guests here in the studio. to marianne talbot, a philosophy don, and someone who's involved with the three hundred group, that's a group trying to get three hundred women into parliament by the year two thousand, and also special thanks to dr. terry clarke, the conservative constituency party treasurer from the henley group. thanks for joining us. goodbye. hello and welcome to the programme. today is international women's day. well who needs it and why is it necessary to have an international women's day and has there been any progress in the women's movement. i'm joined by four women who can talk about these issues: ann mobbs, theresa smith, brenda thornton and barbara bryant. well, let's start with ann mobbs. ann, in the twenty one years of the women's movement has there been any real progress for women? well you have to think, international women's day has been going for just about a hundred years. it started off erm women's struggles in chicago. garment workers, who were paid really bad wages and had a strike and struggled for union recognition, and i think that's the thing that women have gone on doing over the years. it's not twenty one years i don't think we're talking about. it's a very long struggle for decent wages erm recognition at work, the same kind of jobs that men have erm it's interesting the results of the guardian survey yesterday, ten thousand replies they had, and there were a tiny percentage of women that earned over thirty thousand, so you could see that many, many of the job tops are still in the hands of men. well you say that international women's day has been going on for some time, but here in britain what's known as the women's movement has been in operation now for about, what, twenty one/twenty two years, something like that. it's really come to the fore and has been seen as a political force for a much shorter time than, say, a hundred years, and i am wonder if, in that short time, because that's how we can judge things, i mean presumably you were aware of the way women were treated before the women's movement started raising it's profile, and you're aware of the way things are now, do you see much change? well obviously there is change and one of the things that we've been doing for international women's celebrations during march, because we're having a whole month of activities, is ah, it's looking at women pioneers yes. and it's absolutely fascinating that women weren't allowed to join the erm architects' institute, the dental association, and so on, and there was a sort of big surge forward at the end of the last century, and i think there's been a big surge forward in the last twenty years or so really. well, but right now women aren't allowed to join certain organizations, do you know which ones? i mean how about, how about, say, for instance, the rotary? are women welcome there with open arms? well i've never tried , but i don't know about the cru clubs. i mean there was a big battle to get women into the working men's clubs, because they could only come in as men's guests. well and so what's the present status on that? i don't know. yes. i mean i think that there still are quite a few areas that are off limits for women, but in those areas where women have gained admittance, have they gained acceptance? in other words are they there as a form of tokenism? erm do they get to real positions of power, like for instance, ann, you work where? i work in the city council. right, under what department? the recreation services. now there must be various tiers in that department, and various levels of well what floor do you work on? i work on the second floor . mhm. and on the fourth floor the management work, and i have to say they are all men, that's true. and if you look at the departments erm in the city and the county, it's largely men who are in the most powerful positions in terms of policy making. i know that in the county there is a new erm chief education officer erm jo stephenson jo stephens happens to be a woman. yes, that's right. the first time that there's been a woman in that post. that's right. but she probably is the only chief officer who's a woman. i think that's true, yes. right. yes i think that's true in the city and the county. well are you saying then that there is a sexist a approach to hiring people by the oxford city and county? well they both have equal opportunities policies . yes, but does it mean anything? well it's difficult for me to say. i'm not involved in the interviewing panels, but erm you're an employee, aren't you? your neck could be on the chop if you were to say what you felt about this and i'm awfully sorry. let's now go to the person sitting next to you, theresa smith. theresa, you're not an employee are you? you're erm one of the elected representatives. you're a councillor on the county. i am, yes. i'm not an employee of the county certainly. so you're free to speak your mind. yes, sure . do you think that there's a bias against women giving women erm the top positions of power on the county, because that's where you would know, the county, we could talk to somebody else maybe about the city. well i want to talk much more about what i think are the unconscious and the not deliberate sources of bias. for example, we know very well that erm for women having children can cost a woman up to half her lifetime's earnings in comparison with a man. that's the sort of unconscious bias that i think we're talking about where okay, can you explain explain what you mean in that. yes, i will. what i'm talking about is situations where women go into jobs when they leave school if they can get jobs. they leave jobs when they are married and start to have children, and erm when they've finished the under fives upbringing, their children start going to school. it's at that point that many women start trying to get back into the labour market and at that point it is extremely difficult, so i think that we're talking about a number of things. one is the actual career breaks that happen for any woman, unless she is in a very highly paid job, where she can afford child care of her own, or unless she's in those very few jobs in this country which actually erm are with employees who are responsible enough to either provide their own child care, or to allow women those sorts of career breaks in order to bring up children. but that is a rarity in this country. it's not a rarity in many of our european community partners. so it's that sort of, if you like, unconscious and undeliberate bias that i'm talking about; those career breaks, the lack of day care for the majority of working women in this country. and certainly if you look at the case for very many women not in the job tops we're talking about low paid work erm low rates of unionisation, very, very low rates of day care erm it's those sorts of things that i'm talking about, and for me those are very, very much more important than the fact that we've only got one woman chief officer at the top in the county council. yes, but i think they're not unrelated. they're not unrelated, certainly, i'm not trying to suggest that. what i am suggesting is that i think if you if you concentrate only on the question of who are the chief officers that's very important and that's very indicative, but it's not the whole story. well, if people if women do get the higher positions of power, do you think that we'll see different kinds of decisions made and more factors taken into account that will affect women? i think so. do you think that are so far down on the totem pole because the people at the top are men and are taking decision that aren't in women's best interests? yes, i think that that's a very large part of the story. i would certainly agree with that. and that's why i think it's very important that erm the city council, for example, has a women's committee and ann, obviously, will be able to talk much more about that than i can. we don't have that in the county. we do have an equal opportunities policy, but we and we're certainly working very hard it doesn't sound like the equal opportunities for day care. it doesn't sound like the equal opportunities aspect of the county is working very well, does it? well it depends how you how you try to put that into practice. if you're well women are getting short shrift. yes, they are. and i think that you have to look much more carefully at what i would want to call positive discrimination. how do you actually encourage women to apply for jobs? how do you make provision, say, for the basic aspects like child care? we do we have made a start in the county, in the way of trying to provide erm workplace nurseries for erm women employees in the county. we haven't anything like enough. we are trying to develop a day care policy in the county, which means that we would be able to make partnerships with erm firms working in the county. that's not only in our own employment, but erm obviously in the commercial sector. erm but that specifically is one of the developments that is has had to be the cut with the budget that was made last month. it's very unlikely we'll be making much in those sorts of developments much of those sorts of developments this year with our current budget. now, that budget is a direct result of the government squeeze on erm all local authorities in this country, but it's those sorts of factors which are certainly putting breaks on an authority like this which, very slowly maybe, and perhaps not nearly as up front as it should be, is trying to develop equal opportunities policies. i think you're suggesting that the local government would do a lot more if the national government would allow it, and i suspect you're a labour member of the oxfordshire county council and i think that you would point at the conservative central government as being, if not deliberately anti-women, then the effect of some of it's policies seemed to indicate that that's where it's heading. is that the line of argument that you're that's underpinning what you're saying? that's certainly a line of argument i would agree with. yes, i am indeed a labour member of this local authority, and i certainly would argue that both national and local governments need at local government level need to take much more up front stances about the encouragement of equal opportunities for women, both in the labour market and in all educational and social spheres. well let's now go to brenda thornton. brenda, do you agree with that? well i certainly agree erm that erm women aren't getting erm a fair share in the workforce as regards equal opportunities, and i think, unintentionally, women get clobbered all along the line. i think it's unintentional because, for example, in education the nineteen eighty eight education act, giving more power to governors, school governors, to make appointments, particularly in the primary school. i mean in my opinion that's a good thing, but it's had the effect of school governors, not having had any training in appointing people, have this sort of stereotyped model in their mind and tend to give promotion to men rather than to women. i think that is, you know, perhaps unintentional, but this is the sort of thing that happens. and although, you know, we can begin to make strides in equal opportunities for women this kind of thing erm knocks them right back. and if you look at the professions where women predominate, for example primary teaching and to some measure secondary teaching as well, and in nursing, erm we know that they're underpaid professions, and i think that if you look at most of the work where women are predominant you'll find that the pay is less than it would be if men were doing it erm and is the status less as well? well it i think the two go together. it's not a good thing, but this is life and this is how it's seen. and i think we've got to do a lot more to put this sort of thing right. to begin with, i think there should be training to erm governors, for example, to train them how to how they should be able to select the right person for the right job and try and try and get rid of this stereotype image. i think that's a very important thing to do, but i think there's something else that i think i don't know if anyone else here would agree with me, but i think women are very bad at pushing themselves forward and particularly bad at planning their career. i think men tend more to plan their career and to work out i want to become the director of the bank of england, or whatever, and he will plan his career to get there. well that's because, perhaps because, when they were young children people directed them in that kind of decision making, or look people directed them to look at those sorts of levels. yes, i think is probably so and i think this is what we have got to do with girls. i think this is what we've got to do with them at school. yes, but it seems like it's the mothers who are directing the little boys to think big and directing the little girls to think small. i don't think it is only the mothers. i think a lot of this is done is school as well. erm i mean i can't tell you off the top of my head, but i would like to know how many erm career advisory erm people actually help girls to direct their career. if a girl says i want to be a nurse, is she asked well erm have you thought about becoming a manager of a hospital if you start off in nursing; can you see your way; how would you get to that position if you become a you know i just wonder, erm i doubt very much that that goes on. yes, ann mobbs. i mean i think it's the class thing as well really, because i can remember when i was erm leaving school erm and i went to the careers erm teacher for my interview and i said i'd like to be a journalist and she looked at me and i came from a very poor working class background in tottenham, and she said ‘i'm sure you could be a secretary or a shorthand typist if you really tried’. and i mean whereas if i sort of came from a middle class background i think people would have thought differently of me. yes, all right, brenda. yes, i don't know about this class business. i have to tell you that my daughter wanted to erm an architect and when she told her, you know, careers teacher ‘i want to be an architect’ she was told ‘oh, erm i don't think that's a very good idea, how about a nurse?’. she came home in floods of tears, ‘i've got to be a nurse, i can't be an architect’. oh. i'm not. i mean i couldn't care less about it. oh. hello gareth, nice to meet you. how are you? hello. i'm fine. you're the one in my way! ben. what's that? ice cream twix? you haven't got enough money for it. i have. i'm gonna get one anyway. i got to , i got about a pound on me. !! did you just call me a fu , i think i just recorded that? so? every time a you get a punch. oh, oh very funny . funny? you can buy me a big coke bottle. buy me a big coke bottle. where? over there. forty nine. yeah i know. but i need it. there. over there. no it's a stereo . you got a big coke bottle. i really needed it though. he's lying. he's lying. i wouldn't trust him. how are you? jolly good. . sa ah yeah. thank you. have you got a bag? mm? no! no!. two carriers, five p for that. i'm not going to do anything. ah! you are you are a softie you know. ian. ian! how is your shop going? wicked! and you've made a profit. ah ha ha. we actually run out of chicken yesterday. believe it or not? oh my god! how much chicken do you buy? it comes to ready-cut in great big trays. we got about erm on the first day we got about forty case. is it nice chicken or mm mm. beautiful. the ,the , they've opened a a like a kentucky fried chicken sort of place where's this? er, harrow. is it harrow? harrow. what's it called? very good price. oh and what's th , what's the catch line, i, i like this. what's the catch line? you got, you've like made a catch line up at the bu bottom. oh yeah. ah ah oh it sounds really good. i can't remember it. it's your shop. well that's good . erm, oh right, it sa , it sounds good, it's like chicken that, oh it's er, oh it's it's funny though. well it went. mind you, monday, and yesterday we, of course, the first two days two pieces of chicken and fries one fifty. and it went a bomb! obviously, i mean and as well, don't forget, people wanna try you as well . oh yeah. definitely. some people ,pe , people who went monday mm. came back tuesday, they came back yesterday. that's decent. it was good. d'ya get a lot of kids in there? well i wish you luck. this please. alright. go this way. next door to us is a pizza hut. ah? next door to us i would have thought they would have gone faster. is a pizza hut. they've got seven bikes that that don't stop! all day long. no i'm not. and i wanna get a drink. mm mm. and now we've got customers always from pizza hut. probably sick of pizza. yeah. i'm gonna get a drink, so and i wanna have a look at their cards for my dad. i tell you, i just remembered it's my dad's birthday on, on wednesday, on wednesday. yeah, i've got the dentist as well, so i couldn't decide which to card to go, oh yeah that's it. do you want one? i think this a quite a good one. dad, i couldn't decide which card to give you for your birthday. do you want or visa, or american express ? no that one. ha? not that good. i want a funny one. ben, help me. i need a funny one. i need, i need a card. come on! help me! i need a card. ah. why should i choose for you? da da da, da da da da . poodles,! trying to think what card to get. i don't think that's very appropriate, dear husband . no. no. maybe not. ! oh hurry up! look at a card, must see a card. oh! come on i'm gonna get a drink in here. what? ach! i'll look tomorrow. actually, no, i'll look on tuesday morning, or wednesday morning. oh oh oh oh! oh oh ah ah! oh oh ah ah. can. oh oh oh oh, ah ah. somebody to be with me . hello! i see. right well that's erm hey be don't too long. because it has. get in there! . i'm gonna buy it anyhow. ah ah! my god! well you, if you you're gonna buy it anyhow oh yeah, i might as well buy it, er er you might as well buy it and leave it at home. er er are you gonna buy that n f l, or that? hell! i didn't want that. . i've got it. ian do me a favour? can you take this off my money? please? cos i haven't got enough . sixty five pence. right. thank you. thank you very much. it's quite alright. alright, alright . come on then. no i wanna get a drink, i told you! i saw some drinks i saw, what did i see? oh that's alright. sorry i didn't mean to say it again. though. i just felt like a drink. alright. a a fanta actually. rio. where is the, where are the sweets? ri riva, rio, that's what i wanted. rio riva. ian. where's rio riva? at the back. can i get one? yeah. thanks. which one? ooh ooh! thanks. thank you very much. alright then? yeah, i just can't get it out. use your teeth. here. aargh! thank you. it's alright. sorry. it's quite alright. i know! mm. oh. not very hard. just get rid of this. i'm not supposed to tell ya. shut up! nearly finished. hurry up! don't worry. there's no king-size mars. and i need one for my father. where are you going? act like it. ian you haven't got any king-size mars's have you? yeah. you have? oh. i think it was here. oh that's three ninety five. are they at the back? three pounds, thirty thirty, four pounds eighteen. oh they're round here. you got king-size snickers which i didn't want. you haven't got any ! ha ha! hint, hint, hint. no. urgh, urgh! unless you want to. i'm not bothered. only, hint, hint, hint. one twenty one. thank you very much indeed. thank bye. you. bye. you haven't been to look for them. no cos you didn't what are you waiting for? ask me to! cor blimey!! well i don't know where they are. and i get them er, i thought they were on the seat but they're not. see, now would i know where to look? well you could have looked. would not have done you have harm. ian, ian, ian, ian very nice. ian, ian! very nice. look, look, look. i bet that's all for you. who else? of course! who else would they be do you keep them in here? who else would they be for? what's in there? there's a box in there. how much is that? right. that's thirty nine, sixty one, one pound and one penny. right. one pound, one penny. seventy,eight , oh can you take it off my round as well. oh god blimey! i can't be bothered to oh just pay it! i've got money and i can't be bothered. now this is going in my pocket till it's nice and melting. lovely! good shop. you finished your round? no. just want to get so you re you reckon you can beat up them? your mum was. my mum was talking to robin no i didn't say that, i said your mum was talking to you. she's not. you lying little shit. he beat you up. you weren't even there robin. ollie i looked at your eye and i told you he has beaten you up. well you weren't there, i was there and he didn't beat him up. no i was just, i was just saying well i'm telling you for a fact that st i'll tell you for a fact that steven won't go for ollie tonight, it's paul that's gonna go for him. it's all his fault cos steven's a giant zoe what? steven's not gonna beat him up. what, why did he make those threats then? i wouldn't believe everything he's not talking about him beating him up. well why's he getting scott and erm jamie and craig to beat him up then? what? he's not er he, he will not. he said he would, he told me. only if ollie brought some friends. neil said. i'm not allowed to bring my and neil knows. neil said that what's neil talking about now? what did you say neil? he said, listen robin listen robin listen to me i can bring my friends if i want. yeah. he goes if he comes he goes or if he brings a load of friends no steven won't. paul will. you weren't there, you didn't hear, robin. i'm telling you for a fact that steven won't touch you. telling me for a fact steven won't touch me? yes. well steven won't but he'll get everyone else to. i'm bringing my friends no he won't i bet paul will start, and that's my i bet paul starts. oh no, course not. yeah paul won't start oliver course not. bet you he does. paul won't. i'll start i think as well. ollie don't start. oh shut up! so nosy. well if you start you're gonna get killed. oh yeah. yes you are ollie has to fight for his pride. ollie has to die in his fights. no. why bother though? what's the point in fights? fighting. no but what's the point in having a fight. i mean you don't have to have one. shut up gonna kill you with their massive great big swords yeah definitely . but if he's gonna fight me i'll fight him. oh my god! it's stupid. you're just so thick! and i'm bringing my friends. like who? not telling you cos you'll to steven. there isn't anyone, your family don't have any friends. michael. oh i'm not bringing michael. ollie. ollie do you like michael? what? do you like michael? yes i do actually. why? cos you don't. i like him, he's alright. he shows off too much too chicken. i don't understand why he doesn't do it himself. he is going to do it himself. i've got money on it, he'll beat you up tonight. cos steven thought trying to get out of getting beaten up. then why would steven admit that as well? cos he wants not to get paul beaten up. oh yeah! and who's gonna beat paul up? oh you don't like him, you don't know what is the so you have to get, ollie you're, the point is that you're getting friends to beat him up then. i haven't got friends to beat him up though have i? i thought he was gonna say i haven't got friends . he did say. oh shut up. you kissed him yesterday though. i know. yeah cos you gave him a big juicy kiss don't tell him. exactly. just don't say it then. last night. well i kissed oliver, oh my god! have you ever had your head read? i have actually what? i have what? you on your own when? at bed time, when you're asleep. ollie . oh with a cat, come on! you did, you always said i'd get off with a cat. ollie remember that time when we beat up paul in ? yeah. yeah, that was good. yeah! it was great fun. we've just been talking about were they good robin? i was being sarcastic. oh do you remember when nicked his mum's pearl earrings? no. he did. really? no i don't actually. i remember when er go and let down er somebody's tyre. so? so? i don't care. which was completely out of order. so? that's pretty good fun actually. yeah that's great fun, let's go and take someone's tyres down! don't want to tell you. what's the time? do you feel ill? twenty five to i would tell miss if i was you because i do not like to see don't chuck up on me. can you tell miss please? oh i'll tell miss. ollie. i did. oh sorry. i can see why steven's started on you. he's been like that all his life, why bother now? think about it robin. yeah but he's starting to do it like he's starting to annoy yeah philip has always annoyed people. who? shut up zoe feeling better now mehmet? bacon crisp burp. oh that is disgusting. ricky can i see yours a sec? turn, turn it round to your blue bit. it's better than your i know but looks good and i don't like it because it looks good. paint all the colours and then paint over them all white who's simon? the one who she fancies. no melanie then she hates him. where did she get that from? laura, she was there when it doesn't she stop pete if i don't get, if i can't come to your house will you bring the tapes in? just the bag, just bring the bag with er with all i am because i'm being kept in here and i might wanna stay yeah but i might wanna stay to finish, i dunno. where, underneath the stairs? no we can go and look at the oh no, i was told that yeah but if you look underneath the stairs you said that was in it. yeah but you don't know what did you look under the stairs? ah? did you look underneath the stairs? yeah, i what you mean the ones behind miss er the ones next to our stairs. you mean the ones er outside miss miss 's room. yes, not there. what are you complaining about now? yes, i thought so too. are you feeling alright? do you feel blurgh blurgh blurgh? i'm starving but, yes. oh yeah my not this week, it's next week. i know it's on the eighth. i'll have to get cassie a ticket. she's er fifteen in may. five nil? how much did they lose robin? five nil. a good team. they are except for they played the wr they played the sweep system. played the what? sweep system. what's that mean? they played the wrong system, they should've played erm their back four, play the back four. did you see ally mccoist's header? no. my god i've never seen someone put so much power into a header! who, allie mccoist? mm. do you know who my favourite arsenal player is now? paul merson. he's a butterfingers. he drops every one. git. i hate him. what you talking about! what, the one that fell? no the one that dropped it. tony adams dropped him. and i'll beat up tony adams after. what you talking about! that's what happened to when he broke his arm. you want a thin and a thick did you say, yeah? yeah. yeah and that put him out of his career. now they've broken his leg. they didn't break it, he broke it. no, they who broke it? the person from crystal palace mm are you? yeah. i wanted to go but she didn't have eno any more tickets. danielle how comes you're erm going to manchester? are you going to see some family or what? or are you just going for the match? they've got good taste. i like going to wimbledon and getting beaten up. by vinnie jones. his girlfriend had a heart transplant. i know i read that. did you see that thing on you shouldn't believe that though. who's vinnie jones? cos that's a stupid rubbish what time's it on? what? who? you like vinnie jones don't you? no. yes you do. vinnie jones, he's such a hard bloke . yeah. it's really funny, that man i reckon he er well,probably could. don't, i don't reckon eric cantona could er don't reckon cantona could what? i don't reckon cantona could beat him up. yeah. nor do i. couldn't but mark hughes might. but i don't know why we're talking about this. has anyone got the time? sorry i don't. twenty to nine, hang your knickers on the line. quarter to. if you're not doing it like that and you're in a conversation or atmosphere in the room, when i find it, this little gadget is wonderful, this will pick up for a long way, this will pick up the dogs next door, if there was no other noise in this room. mm this is a little mike stand okay and it mhm sit like that and to attach it all you do is swing it round vertically, plonk it on, i've done that wrong oh, well it goes like that that's right and it consists i mean you've got probably what a yard maybe mhm i would think possibly up there, if you two are sitting here mm then it would make sense if you're gonna continue doing that yeah yeah to have it somewhere like that yeah i mean to be honest it's just a case of one of you, it does go that way, i knew i was right the first time, of one of you just remembering yeah to turn the tapes over yeah, it'll probably be me and, and also then i'm sure it will and al , also then the batteries, every third tape yeah because they do use a lot of juice up mm okay mm so that's that, that's all of that, thank you very much no, no problem and i'll see you next week aha at erm four-ish about four yeah, well if that's alright, only as being that's the, what i call the end of month, like i've got to pay all of the bills and they must get it until the next, the end of the month yeah, well fair enough the whole lot fair enough, you don't need your headphones mm, no so i'll take those back with me, i've got another pair in here mhm erm, oh i'm, and that's it, that's great alright so, don't worry about bad language, i mean any sort of dialect you know, just forget it's there yeah mm one thing i think it does tell you in your guidelines, one is, if you do have friends round, out of courtesy you should maybe say so this is an experiment say you've got a cos they go ooh for about three seconds or a couple of minutes and they'll forget about it yeah, well i don't think we plan any at the moment do we? no, no no no right lovely thank you thanks very much ladies i'll see you next week okay? right we'll see you next week right yeah okay, you let me out yeah bye then goodbye is it on? yeah well what shall we talk about, the weather? did you want another cup of tea? and, what on earth is this film about? well i think he's sort of, he's out of a job ain't he? well he was just now, yeah and he wants a wife anyway i must get on my letter to june oh, oh it's erm for it oh leave it here it is yeah now she's gone, did she put my aha i don't want to lose that one your sacred pen that is the best pen i have yeah so i'll leave all that there and then di can read through it when she gets back you'll have to read through all that yeah and er, it's simpler than me doing it anyway in the oh er the bloody thing's finished now what your jumper? yeah well then tomorrow i must make a little list, see cos i want to finish that baby's jumper which one? to send to malta oh yes and erm you can always do some little motif yourself on it yeah, it's a girl now we know what it is don't we? er perhaps a couple of little roses or something like that yeah or go down and buy a couple of those little roses, which is much simpler well yeah innit? you know much nicer we really want it very, very pretty but there again , but there again if they start cos kids do pull running , not very big er mat matinee jacket though is it really? no you know cos she's fed up with you that's why i've lost this film now. i think it's rubbish anyway yeah, yeah i probably think that they're having an affair i think i think so she looks old and haggard in this mm, it's amazing what they can do though with make-up and well they can make her into an old, old lady just trust fletcher, she's quite smart and nice ain't she? yeah what? who's the maid dunno oh where have i got to go tomorrow then? oh i, i want to go to erm possibly the wool shop, erm square one and abbey national, i think i can't think of anywhere else at the moment oh my not ready yet did you go in there? no, but it still went off no be next week why, he's not gone and chickened out? i wonder if we're suppose to talk all the time? dunno, well you can't talk all the time you'd have a sore throat wouldn't you? i mean it's, it's general i suppose i mean if it would be better to switch it on and off which you can do and er, you know, i mean we can't sit here continually talking well i know, i know i'd never get my letters written anyway so if you want to switch it off, i'll get on with my letters and erm you do your knitting and i'll, what is the time? i've got to do the potatoes yet so that's every fo , every second we think to say something, we've got to turn it on? well is it? otherwise we leave it for an evening just have general, i mean if we can she wants us to do the whole twenty, she said she'd be delighted, there was yorkshire television on her car keys i know i saw it yeah i that it don't mean a thing really, but it don't mean anything at all, but then nevertheless, i mean they always want somebody to do these sort of things it's all, all for a purpose i suppose oh well i don't er ta very much it's all a survey's a survey innit? surveys yeah, but i mean from your and my point of view we don't sit here talking all the time, but when your father gets in then there's talk yeah er work and that gosh she don't look too bad there no well if i get this letter done and then we'll get the envelope, get the stuff for malta, sort out what i'm gonna send yeah see what i'm gonna, well, see if i can get the little the other little rain jacket tomorrow rain jacket for annaleigh get the jacket done, get that in for ian and something in for claire and then when you go down town you can do it for me i thought we were going to town tomorrow? yeah, but it won't be ready will it? can't be ready cos the little jacket ain't erm that's true, that's true for we haven't got any ribbon anywhere have we? well i might have i just don't know i think i mean i used a load at, why, want white? well what was i used, i used yellow that i'd bought yeah but erm what did you put the white in then? i don't know, i just don't know anyway i mean it only needs a yard don't it? that they like all that yeah i wonder if i can find another well i should of bought some same time i would think, never mind i will go and get some now well done yes no not really, all that money, i mean in the end is it worth rescuing i say, i know it's sport and i know what about it, but, it's an awful lot of money though ought to go back to amateur, proper amateur yeah yeah, it's all become too, erm, professional high powered innit? yeah it's not only that it's all money innit, that's why yeah, i thought about that last night try and be quieter oh dear, oh dear, just what will it be like when dad gets in? oh interesting i think oh no oh oh no it's not on oh i wanted my programme i know that oh look, see what time's right erm i don't know what else i've got where we've put the paper? oh there it is catchword's not until five, five tonight five, five? is there? no not really tomorrow then it's the policeman you know policeman, i thought it was a woman, yeah no he was an ex-policeman oh i see, i thought it was a policeman doing it today no oh that's a innit? yeah she'll probably be one of the cleverest people you'll ever meet yeah what time does your father get in? it's about half five innit normally? a bit earlier on oh is it friday? earlier on a friday yeah, well mind you he was early last week cos he had his hair cut, ha yes freda all dressed in red, right well if i start and her hair still looks i know it's horrible innit? i'm gonna start i don't know where he is tonight do you? no he might be down the club yeah oh, you know i said i saw sharon today? yeah she goes down the railway who goes down the railway? sharon she plays bingo on a sunday night oh crikey she said is jim still on the committee? i said yeah now he is, yeah he said, she said i thought that was his name, cos his name was up on the board i said oh yeah mm, oh dear roped in there, now, i said he's in there already well it's alright as long as it doesn't get to be like i said it could, these are lovely stamps you know i know i've never had this one r e i g n reign oh i ain't seen it yet, ha, s c r u signet, s i g n e t, s i g n e t that's how you spell it signet, i'll start using these things yeah aha, i'll throw them away most of time, it's quite nice aren't they really? there's molly just come home alan's got to be away you know yeah he's got to be wait, oh no crusting they you are look, there's plenty of -ing words yeah go on have a look darling i thought reign was good mm erm i love those jackets she wears you know well i shall go and on the big way now, she's preggy yes i know, but they do make it oh it's very smart i have to say that, i mean when you've got something like that you only need a skirt and a top yeah, but that top she had on before all you need is a black dre a black skirt and it's a suit then yeah, absolutely, yeah wrist s t r o stow s t o w well that's no good, b e o r o s t r e s t o no for restore we want another e look yeah twerps i've got five twerps none of these words i don't think are oh look at that i think we're anyway, certainly what is the date today? twenty first sportier sportier yeah well as you say i mean a lot of these words you wouldn't want chancing yourself, would you? well no, he's sportier than i am yeah well i suppose so one of the, it must er ha, you want a u now oh nasty oh r, q, x, q, x, q, x, q, x yeah, oh look at that, pulled all me stitches off yeah afraid so ooh i've lost a stitch here s e x sex, fate, s h i i won't see the other one g h i t sight s i g h t yeah that's right hats oh what's that then, father's home little devil he's home early, what's that? it's early innit? done half a day i suppose we'd better tell him that we're taping oh good it's only one part well i'm not doing those am i? why? cos i can't be bothered that's why oh it's seventy five oh i don't like them erm thirty five and four what's this half a day then? oh, ha, not late we just sat here just now and said that you'd be in about half past half past four? half past five, i can't remember half past five ah? half past four, hair cut last week yeah, that's what we said actually yeah, but half a day then. yeah. we're doing a survey doing a what? a survey, we've got a microphone going you're on tape oh am i? mm, you see my letters where you, where, did they come when you got here? before you went? connie and june eh, oh june was it? june yeah oh i thought it was kate i thought it was ann if it was then i yeah then i put a to it no, erm, well cos you saw her didn't you? er jack jack, yeah, yeah jack down the pub and er i said to her about that phone call didn't i? you did yeah it was quite a long letter actually mm she's hoping to go and have her knee done that's right yeah, jack did say that, but i forgot to tell you, yeah well she'd been waiting because he's on full time again now yeah that's right you knew that? oh more than full time oh is he? oh yeah, tapes? only twenty we've got to talk for twenty tapes talk for twenty tapes and i get paid twenty five pounds for what? for her talking for using up the tapes, i'll take it tomorrow at wembley strange but where'd that come from then? oh yorkshire television she had er on her key ring weren't it bev? yeah so it's just normal talking is it? well yeah , unless it's something you don't want them to hear you start and stop it she said that and she said she don't mind us swearing she said i'll leave you fourteen, it actually says twenty tapes in the, bits of paper but she said if you could fill twenty i'd be over the moon did she say? yeah anyway she'd knocked at the door and er, i said to her oh i don't have to buy anything and she said no, no and erm they lend it? yeah yeah i think mr has died oh funeral car well she said a couple of funeral cars mm, mm and then er she looked over and well er it's gotta be him, it's not her and erm, she came well she was never, that, that well what mrs ? yeah oh she's a i would of thought wouldn't you mick? yeah, she's always buzzing about, but erm, no this lady came back mm with the tapes and the recorder and she said i nearly knocked that door, you know and erm i said well well it's not doing much good you going out there talking well you're still doing it yeah she said don't worry about the mm, mm i mean i wouldn't think of her sending the camera over what else did i say? give one to mrs and one to mrs yeah i never got in till twelve again today er mm any good in it? well, they do their best for me, but it's embarrassing ian coloured them all the way, the way in malta and when you read the letter oh it's a funny letter oh it is a funny letter mate, well it's a connie letter mick mm of her, her bits and pieces i'll read it to you, eh? no it's ever so funny no, not with that oh i'd forgotten about that, right i had to go back a couple of times didn't i bev? yeah to make sure that i was reading it to bev right, but then you understand it's a connie letter don't you? eh what she needs is what we need for the summer weather connie, my brother is who you wrote to jim? no i've done jim oh only i want to send this packet over now look with the baby coat and all that well i won't be able to post it tomorrow cos it won't be ready oh dear oh you've been out nearly every day ain't you? m what? well shut it off then oh alright then, he's reading do what? you'll just have to keep on doing it that's all oh every time someone has a conversation on and off you don't have to do it every time leave it on n nice little letters those aren't they? they are nice little letters, this one just as hard to understand yeah that's what bev said i couldn't even think who belle the dog was and dad had to remind me erm n, c, h, punch er oh they're coming out pretty good today aren't they yeah adore, adorned i had it, ha, ha, ha i've never heard of it no oh, right there's some writing behind oh yeah, ha l l i i l oh lovely s still no we're on now okay? yeah well i've got to get through right so you do the papers then and i can, only we do wanna go to square one and er we both need that sort of thing jogging trousers well if they're that price i mean we'll er go into it won't we? it'll certainly do us at the moment in the winter won't it? mm otherwise i mean er, there is better ones there, but well it's more for swimming for us two well it is and i mean they'll be simpler wouldn't they, than pulling up things like this i mean if we're not gonna get out there, rosemary says she gets out there about nine o'clock, don't she? oh yeah well cos they probably go for a drink i dunno, don't matter anyway, erm, but you see that one is half past seven to half past eight mm so we don't need to go down that early bev well we do for a swim we're going to a spa yeah, but so do they, and their official time is half past seven to half past eight innit? well phone them up and yeah then you'll know won't you? you doing a swim because that costs more, but it's not just actual spa we've put down for though no oh well we'll go and we'll see then, try it this week and next week and then see, see from there won't we? i know but er it's pretty chilly you know ain't it? yeah, well it's better than the, last two days easy ah, yeah but it's, it's damp isn't it sort of chilly, it's bloody cold i know it was i went out, that's an enormous place over there you know them innit? yeah power store are the ones to be there power store? yeah well that one over there look should be the w h smith one you see oh so that is it? yeah well that's what i understood anyway, weren't it? yeah cos that's been shut for ages innit? mm that weren't there very long really was it? no ultimate was in it wasn't it? with it, that was the electrical place whoops, sorry what are you doing? i was just dreaming i just looked down to see what the time was, i just looked up oh the trouble with this car is you can't come down you've got to slow it down you can't come down through the gears no you're either accelerating or you're, or you're braking well don't do it again then no i just looked at the clock that was all it was graham's got a sale on who? graham's, oh yeah they can't do much of a business you wouldn't think so apart from their regulars that's all i can say who? graham's them up there, oh but, you know they've gotta but i mean old what's name had a following up there didn't he? what erm ? yeah he did whether it's the same sort of thing, and there were certain people well, i mean you won't get that wouldn't go anywhere else no, you won't get the erm passing type trade, i don't think no i don't think you will, but er no i don't think so, but you, you as i say i'm certainly erm has his own yeah that wouldn't go anywhere else yeah well i mean that's right, but i say, quite seriously the prices in these exclusive shops mm today, i don't er well certain amount of people buy that type of of course they, do, course they do, well you won't get the passing trade where people want half a dozen shirts no you know just, just fashion again, innit? mm you won't get any of that i don't know i think so, yeah you never phoned aunty lesley last night mm i didn't can't i? what's that for? well just to see how she is, i mean we haven't been down there oh and er, you know it's just a contact really isn't it? i said i'd keep contact and mm i mean she could come up to us, but she always seems to be rushing about, here, there and everywhere don't she? yeah don't get out yet no, alright then, i can't anyway, oh oh well last i got out i found that i was about a foot too far forward out into the oh out over there look right we'll get back here then and, not having to go to the post office now will be a help cos that really is the other end of town innit? it is cold that innit? oh, i do need some trousers i can't bloody, these are all coming apart anyway oh all round the waist oh yes the waist band yeah sort of on its own and i mean really and honestly that not worth bothering to sew them up, they'll do for work, but that's all oh it's a chilly wind you know, i hope we've got a better bus tonight why? well i mean that one was just a bad, a bad effort it was just unfortunate yeah, i mean he did say, he didn't really oh, realise the heater was gone that's rubbish that well i thought it was, but who knows you never know which way they're going here no, well you watch the indicator yeah, but, sometimes people don't use them do they? ah? i did tell him it was i know what's name didn't i? i didn't bring my gloves well done cos i had a cigarette in one pocket and this thing in the other you see yeah this is a pretty little shop innit? yeah oh, oh well it could of been worse i suppose, it's saturday again look oh my hands are cold mm at least they've got all yeah, mm yeah that's necessary innit on a saturday? that doesn't matter, whatever right thanks a lot me dear for your trouble yeah ta ta have you got another pen? yeah, sorry, sorry that's alright don't worry hiya marge hello, said you'd be down town this morning that was a marathon weren't it bev? cor it was is it sorted? no book went in and where the woman put the figures in last week that was the end of it, it was in there to pick up, but it was still thirty quid out, so pam started doing it so i said to well it's pat, she's ever so nice well pat's doing it for me, well somebody's doing it for me, so yeah, well she's really good i mean yeah i was in front of bev when i went in there and i said to her she's gonna sort it go to pat because some yeah my book's terrible now of them are such dickheads yeah i mean there's one in there particularly that messed up both of us ah? there's one of them that messed up both of us i don't deal with the bank the only thing i got it now we do, we do the bank not the building, the only place where yeah yeah, no all i do is two insurances in the midland now, i had so much hassle yeah that er i, two insurances i take the money in every month yeah and there's about what did i put it? oh i had to put that postal order in there, there's about fifty quid in there just to keep the thing ticking over, yeah and, and i puts the insurance money every month and they take it out, i don't touch the blasted thing now well i done my, we bank barclays when i opened mine, they're great over there oh yeah, yeah but er it's all this every time i go in the you've got trouble i'm waiting for somebody we've got to go in here, yeah i see you then see you then, ta ta, oh they've still got them oh, god that was freezing what? don't it? what do you mean? that's the ones innit? there yeah three to four that's fine four that's fine innit, let's make sure it's alright, it's lovely innit? sweet innit? it's nice to have two different ones bev because er yeah i'll just have a look at these shirts up here no, they're nice bev yeah they're nice aren't they? oh we'll come down another day and look, that's nice innit? a bit short in the body oh is it? it looks it don't it? now look at the beautiful colours though yeah alright, i'll go and pay for this they're quite smart mum what's that? yeah, oh they're nice thanks very much, oh one ninety nine love please thank you, oh, that wind was bitter in the end yeah thank you thanks very much, ta go and look over the shoes bev and see if there's, what sevens there are would you yeah please? thanks a lot thank you very much ta no i don't like them, cos i've got a high instep look, here i'll, i'll, it'll cut me you see oh yeah, bloody hell they haven't half sold some ain't they? seven yeah, but they luminous aren't they? very luminous, threes and fours in the black, there's the plimsolls fours, fours, they're not are they? nothing there no bo i don't want those again do i, what are those fours? no i, i really, i've gotta be very careful, that'll be better cos it's got the elastic, right we'd better get on then hadn't we? no it don't matter i got this, this is what i wanted we want some for a little jacket mum yeah and we want to go to square one don't we? yeah well if we go to square one now oh i'm glad you saw that there's some nice stuff in there now what here? yeah oh oh is that for the red? oh we won't faff about in here we'll just no just look well if they've gone, they're gone aren't they? oh they look quite nice five ninety nine oh oh one ninety nine oh that's the other one's innit? oh they're nice what you want? very nice seventeen ninety nine mm small to medium here, five ninety nine, i'll have a look at the top and see if there's anything else, what are those? two ninety nine, don't have to be black well i'd prefer black what are these? oh what are those? that erm, that's them innit? have they got a straight bot two ninety nine oh i wonder what they'll be like, i don't want them as tight as those others, yeah but it's the legs and that, those others of mine, when i got them back they were really very ti tight oh shouldn't be well i'll go and try a pair of those, small, medium, then you've got a large i'd expect, well i'll take a large as well, right these are large oh let's try that one then can't even do it erm i've got two can i try them on? yes, just go through right, thanks, oops yeah if i try a pair of yours on at home alright then and see whether they fit they're nice stuff this, much nicer than the other ones, it's all in a mess, sorry, i'll have small, medium small, medium, i'm sure that's what i had, no they feel nice though, i didn't like the feel of the other ones, i expect there's enough money in there, i've got me plimsolls to put on yes they're hard those oh i didn't know how to do it, no wonder that'll, that'll be fine first thing won't it? yeah these socks are no good for these well you shouldn't of put them on i was cold oh i like that one sorry? the longer one longer what dear? ladies oh that's a good one, yeah, sorry, no they're good ain't they? right hang on there bev, money right that was softer than other ones, i'll come in another day and have a good root round yeah have these great right, super thanks very much, bye, oh they're lovely stuff, what she on about the kiddie? oh it started off with she said in germany, i said no i said i can walk into them any moment ha he said over at basingstoke and i had a look in the shoe shops, and that, they would be very handy for me erm lace up though yeah but these were are all crumped and i don't want clumsy ones cos you feel as though you've got doctor marten's or something on you know but they're not comfortable after a while and they look it though, they look it, that you know, they really do all fuddy duddy yeah, yeah and they're sort of grey, i'm not sure if she got them in a charity, i'm certainly sure it wasn't bought in a shoe shop, cos she goes round every charity, she won't go in, you know i told you about that, oh i don't know what it is, she said it's loaded out with stuff and we'll have to have a walk round there, erm, round by what was kennedy's, erm yeah by the bingo hall yeah that was a fruit shop she said it's loaded out as a cheap shop she said and erm, she won't go in there because bloke's stood in there, she said she don't mind going in and paying fifty, because, well they don't do that do they? no you know, so erm yeah, but he's only watching the well he's probably got nowhere else to go, i mean it's no just aged off innit, there must be an out place, but you wouldn't er i wouldn't leave them no you wouldn't leave it, but she said it's a cheap shop so, but she said there's loads but i've got to go to job spot one time yeah so when we walk round yeah, yeah that's right, but i mean just go and have a look, and i actually said to her well you'd be better with somebody else, you know, not going in there on your own yeah and erm, you know, she, she obviously needs somebody else with her to make it not so obvious for her yeah not but i think that, that with what it is you know, but then i say she's got that anyway, she's not as, as tough as what she makes out, but er it would be worth having a look you never know what's in there, and i say i must pick up a couple of paper towels yeah i'm not, i'm not gonna pay any more than that there's no point in it. no, oh i know what i never got that ain't finished i'll have to go down the shops, i might go down what? i didn't get that baby card did i? you don't know whether i looked no i di last night when i was up there and he said to me what was that noise, i went through all the piles and i had a quick look in the bureau but, i didn't find that, i don't know what i've done with that i know there was a baby one, you know that, erm pile with all different cards and there was a baby one in there? i'm sure there was, i'll go and have a look there was get wells and driving test, oh have a look because i mean i'm sure there's one there it was, it was particularly, it, it totally for a girl yeah because i said it was erm simon's, and then i didn't know really where they lived and erm, i know they moved out, out of next door to lesley's, and in the end it never got done that, that more to the point but erm i can't do that up until i've done that can i? well i can't do that up until the coat's ready anyway oh yeah but erm that what shall we do with that then? oh i don't know i mean it's gonna go through there, well i suppose i'm sure i can get some round the neck it won't fit round the neck got to fix it then haven't you? you'll want somewhere where you can either have it hanging well no what did i do with that one for erm ian and diane? might get it through the bottom, that'll be simpler won't it? i don't know what's gonna be simplest? when i did that one for ian, we just tied it in at the back didn't we? mm and had that well let it dry off for a minute, well they must have a card, good job i thought about that i should be interested to see what she calls her because i think annalise is a beautiful name yeah and you don't hear it much here do you? no, well, it's like nina's name, i can't remember it, anastasia or something like that yeah, and shorten it to nina yeah, how they got nina out of it, it is something like anastasia, but it's well nina must be in there somewhere so well i believe er, her sisters used to call her neen anasteen, anasleen, anasleen some something like that and they used to call her neen oh and she said i don't like that call me nina yeah and it stuck at oh well they've added the a on then yeah obviously mm, nobody calls her, whatever it is no well they all call annalise that annalise annalise, i've never heard anybody out there call her anna or lisa, or lise or anything, always annalise, it's such a pretty name yeah ain't it? it's funny you know, if you give them a long name yeah they don't shorten it they get very shortened but their, the name of their new house is dew drops is it? it's very nice yeah innit? well it's the oldy-worldy yeah, certainly is, i think that's super but i don't know why hayley and ian are called theirs jack? so did susan, susan called theirs jack, that little boy oh yes, but er well jack were then, they, they put these, in the paper periodically they put well the girl was gonna be layla what erm if they had a girl it was layla what hayley? yeah mm quite nice that, i don't mind that fleetwood mac song oh is it? mm oh i didn't know that, but erm, no in the paper periodically went mad on it, on fleetwood mac oh, but when prince andrew was born that caught on yeah you know x years ago, but this is what they do and eugene er, well i haven't heard any eugenes no, that was picked out the history book would of picked that, they had a book here didn't they? i should of gone through the book to find that, put some money on it because if she had victoria as well, i thought about victoria and er of course i didn't know about eugene i don't read, but it's in the book is it? yeah i oh yeah if there are any don't know what it'll be do you? no, i don't think they'll have any more now no i don't think they will but you can't really believe all that you read in a newspaper can you? no, but they don't seem a happy couple at the moment do they? well it's the impression you get innit? yeah, but there again the wouldn't give out or let that out no if there weren't a certain amount of truth oh it's got all something totally out oh yeah though he's got all those people up there again, amy karen er not karen er caroline caroline and er peter oh you know that erm course that erm cookery yeah for german yeah well there's a holiday one, it's a holiday one at, at yeah, well what is that then? ten weeks but that would probably only be sort of erm a german holiday? yeah oh what like erm a yeah that's quite interesting then and you don't know when that one starts? well it's starting earlier than that, but i wonder whether to leave it until because i might already know most of yeah, oh you do know certain, a certain amount don't you? just got to get to get the sentences, oh i know quite a few words yeah i mean we can get by over there can't you? yeah, i think i'll wait until september and well you won't wait until that long you'll put it down in may may won't it? yeah so don't forget that, i think that's more comprehensive and that was a monday night wasn't it? yeah so even with swimming oh i won't pack up at my swimming no, oh no no, what i think i'll do swimming-wise is go down to seven fifteen yeah, do you wanna go monday dinner time, if you're not, you're not wouldn't phone you on monday, she may, but she isn't supposed to she isn't supposed to, well if you're, you're working though aren't you? i'm working but it's half past twelve innit? that's right, yeah, i don't mind well let's, let's, let's say we'll try yeah and see what the weather's like and you name it, i mean we know now well let me just check me diary, i know no, but we now know that, if it, if i've got the right time, half past twelve's fine yeah erm, oh wait a minute i can't you can't the cooker man the cooker man, oh well let's see another day then dependent on this mm i mean cos if that job's available bev i'll take it you'll have to have a start about it won't you? yeah i mean it'll stop you oh it'll stop me what's name, but that don't matter because although he said to me part time er, but of course he didn't know, erm they might, might want somebody part time, but erm, i mean that's gotta be at least even if it's three pounds an hour oh i'm not thinking about it well you're not bothered about that anyway i'm not even bothered to think about it i mean eight hours a day, it's gotta be over the hundred er nine thirty to five thirty so i won't get in till what? i won't get in till i don't know when what? get on the bus and that in the morning? no no he's picking you up at night oh he'd pick me up at night, i see he said half past five is fine, half past five past five is fine yeah no it doesn't, that's no problem well really it's not that much further forward it's only down the road innit? i say no, that, that ain't the problem hopefully if i do get it, there's somebody there, that's going from andover well that's what i said, you don't know do you? no or somebody in the next place or the next place, we reckon we know where it is do you? no woolworth's woolworth's have you never been out there? no no, well it's the big paved erm way long way? oh yeah, there's, mind you but what's out there is load of erm unit factories, unit places and well it'd have to be somewhere yeah similar to my place up there yeah er but a bigger area and they're like big warehouses, big, well like the yeah and erm, he's got in the, in the fabric one he's got double doors and all the rolls of carpet and erm, he's got a table in there and obviously to make a cup of tea, got a couple of beds in there cos he's sold them and it's like a big warehouse and erm all around there there's a big concreted area, you know, and er all these units and that's where we, we reckon it is. i mean there's a lot there, there's a lot of places places yeah no, no the evening one would be a doddle anyway we'll wait and see, might not occur. i mean if then, if you did then the, the are out yeah but then, providing we go on the tuesdays you can still go german on the mondays, anyway couldn't you? yeah well for all that time if you have that i won't probably won't be there they won't be there no that's right, no but thirteen weeks yeah, well that's norm isn't it? i don't know yeah, well when i, when i was up raf andover i had a feeling that it's six weeks oh i, how awful for thirteen weeks, with me, i know she did when she had ian went back i know she did, but anyway doesn't matter whatever it is. well then i'd have to stop the income support oh yeah , oh yeah you most probably end up with so you couldn't do that, you'd have to tell them that, and say well i've got to start my because i'm involved with the i'll have a temporary job ah? i'll have a temporary job yeah, oh no you'll have to things like that we get on quite well you know yeah, we seem to get held up everywhere we go yeah we did i couldn't believe it when no, never mind ha, my brother went into the if i buy them too big then they're, all on the floor yeah you know, they're just too long oh i'll try a pair of yours on yeah, but they're stretchies that's what's so nice about them yeah and the material is, you feel the stretch, the others are like this and they just sit there, but then in the end they ride up you see they bag oh they bag something terrible but then i say at the price i'm not gonna buy them, i'm not, but in the dodger's there's not one small in any colour no well then if i go onto a medium, then you're getting all this length and all this business here, all that business and it's too much, if i could of found a four i'd certainly tried it on for swimming you know,but i don't want it all baggy and horrible you know and i do like that sewing stripe down the middle yes because it always looks smarter than, like this just plain like a pin stripe sort of thing well it's just like isn't it? a crease mm when you iron in a crease it's, it's just like that ain't it? i i don't know a bit dodgy yeah you put that corned beef in the fridge didn't you? yeah do you want some salad cream for now? i think there's enough oh cos i'm going down the shop i wouldn't bother no, i'll do it tomorrow then do something different for dinner tomorrow, well you can either try some, oh i've got another here, we could try eh? sandra does it, but i mean i wouldn't bother with all that oh no they certainly do bring the old repeats back don't they? mm i mean they're not bad little programmes, but quite seriously you we've seen them though once you've seen them if i put one of those skirts on, the navy i think, and if i get any marks on it well no, i'm only wearing me bloody coat and the skirt and er grey tights that's all, er whatever up top i mean i hope that, have a look, i hope it's gonna be a better bus anyway this week make sure that hip's on the side then i've already got one, i'm not bothered about that, i mean for kids i think, i think it's a good idea because well then they don't lay on it oh i've done that for many a year yeah, oh it is neater i agree with that, i just want to get on with it now you're not happy with it are you? i am happy with it, i've just lost interest oh no i, i want it certainly oh you must get hungry in a minute surely we must try that freeze dry too yeah freeze dry too how many cups was in there? six mm, it's incredible really mm it'll be nice if you could summon up people like that on the phone won't it? oh yeah oh dear god i've got to work at albridge tonight go to sleep on the bus well yeah but it takes longer on the bus, but er but if you're tired you can go to sleep anywhere oh you do i hope tommy's got that photo of her now when did he post it? or did i post it? he posted it didn't he? he post it that'll be last saturday then won't it, that's a week then won't it? i'm sure she's on the move, for it, you know yeah i mean it came out well i thought, it came out very well, considering it was, you know, different process, and it certainly does the job and i still haven't got my damn postcards have i? no yeah i would, i've got to write to dot tomorrow yeah, yeah cos i think it's only fair i've got that card, i think it's in there oh no, well i mean, i think you've got to do it properly, i don't think you should do it on the caravan because a you're gonna get the reception, b you're gonna have to make an appointment and it, in a letter i'll probably have to see them anyway sorry? i'll probably have to go up to them well you probably shall well that's, well that's their choice then not yours yeah but the whole point is you can put down every detail in a letter for them to read, to put on file, can't you? no i think you should do it, do it that way round well i'll pop up there first then yeah even if i'm not i'll give them a ring tomorrow yeah and erm i mean really it's a bit difficult actually because er you don't know about that why? well you don't know whether you'll be able, you can go down in an evening no i'll just say i'll pop down some time she might of had hers by now mightn't she? yeah, whoops big oh big foot well she might be that little bit further on let's face it i mean yeah, i could well otherwise you might be you know, a little bit further, but i wonder whether how long it's gonna take martin to fit that gear if martin can do it well i want, now i want yeah well i understand but i wonder how long since they will leave it she's already looked for an answ , you know she doesn't get an answer, that's the point, i should think by now he'd i can't see, i mean, of course i mean she can take him to court over the money mm if he disagrees or don't do anything, but i can't see how he can't leave it, can be without it, has to know oh i'd yeah, but not from her point of view i mean, not from her point of view she'll, she'll surely just go ahead they are a damn nuisance well we ain't had lots and lots well since helen went we've had no luck at all with neighbours, i think they're disgusting but then they're not the sort of people you can talk to are they? no is there a girl up this road called rachel? not that i know of, well i mean i don't know two er, two kiddies, er there's that, that one then, it's gotta be what one? sandra why? they're not called rachel no, but, who else up here's got two children? well there's a woman that comes up not the woman with three there's another woman that's got two, i don't know her, she comes round with some of those envelopes sometimes er because charity you know sharon yeah it's a bit of er yeah erm she, she said i know somebody up your road yeah she's got two children and i don't know anyone i don't know who's up the top, who lives up there i mean no somebody took over horace's place there, i don't yeah know who they are, next to er i don't know anybody sharon and her man went, on er wedding, er honeymoon, went on honeymoon with them they what? you know janet janet yeah sharon and that lot went on hol honeymoon with them why? i don't know they well about that then what for a holiday or i think so strange innit? dinner time dinner time i thought so i mean it was getting on a bit goody, goody how you getting on with that then? ah? how you getting on with it? slowly oh it's going ah? it's going is derek coming tomorrow then? oh i'll phone him up this afternoon then yeah cos er, see how many he wants, there's fourteen they're not gonna have, i'm not gonna have fourteen if we don't need fourteen oh no i think eight or nine really but can't even tell it, ought to be able to do it oh he's done a lot of work ain't he? yeah, but for the little place it is is it little? well, it's a bungalow yeah yeah but the, the back garden and, i suppose our, our lawn and gareth's together probably that's it? yeah, but he's got in there a half shed and er this er summer house summer house, yeah, yeah, and he's got a patio outside, didn't, it's a only a patio it's nothing, it's not covered in or anything but there's steps up to it and that and, and that's it, he's got nothing in his garden, it's lawn and oh it's just a and er and pretty and pretty yeah , yeah that's right, it's lawn and, and flowers, he's got nothing er the beds are only half yeah i know, i didn't realise it was that small it's the same size as our lawn oh, oh i didn't realise, mm hot water now what? hot water now hot water? yeah what? well switch your tap on the bathroom one doesn't ah? the bathroom one don't it was very hard to turn on when i was i've been able to turn it on but it ain't been no is that no good? i think we'll take those sausage rolls with us tonight do what? take those sausage rolls or a pork pie with us yeah i mean it is only to have something with you, innit? well it is, yeah, er what you having? one double please yes please right so what time do you wanna leave? ah? what time do you wanna leave here? well if we're gonna take the car we'll four thirty, alright i tried that channel four mick do what? i tried to find that horse yeah and it's, it's the wrong tape, it only tells you last week's winners well it tell about it erm, it, it tell about it because there's a special bonus offer on it yeah and we wound, re-wound the tape and er looked for the number and it's the same number, i've done it three times and i got this other bloke and i went right through it once and it says last week and erm, if you wanna do it again watch channel four on saturday, so i'll try it when the programme's on, they might of found out yeah cos he did say there was a special bonus that's right, er and it had the same number still those little chops looked all right didn't they? yeah right now then yeah right, done it what? mm i'll have to do me this year, this week then, this'll be the week going he'll come up right yeah we've got a less than an hour now less than an hour, oh i was waiting for those results well i'd drink me tea as well obviously but you don't mean it though are you darling oh bored oh i'd rather gone out, i think there's, there's one of those for us mm, what about a nice long walk go and pick up jesse and oh no i don't want jesse, i mean after what your father said this morning i heard yeah yeah mm, so did i, no jesse's too erm young still don't want to, i mean you don't want to get involved in something like that you don't want to start anything off like that i told them i wouldn't have her, i, i if they wanted to go on holiday i wouldn't have her, i couldn't have her in here she'd knock everything to bits, try to move everything in here that she wouldn't chew well you couldn't you couldn't do it could you? no, she'd have all those as i say she'd have everything down, i think i, she definitely needs a big house, but not only that i mean she has to put everything up like and then she got up on that did they? who to? alright mother i'll go and get ready well what i'll do i'll go and get some clothes, now what we do, we gonna take some food with us then? like what? i'm not bothered cos i, i mean the things that we did last year have a bag of chips between us we might as well get a bag of chips i, i mean i can have a sausage roll and a piece of cake we might as well, yeah, what is a bag of chips well split three ways? if i erm well on the other hand we didn't want one between us er one each no right if i'll go and get me clothes then erm er well i'm gonna have a cup of tea yeah and then that'll have to be it well no that have to be it then because i'll be going no, it's quite a journey, how long is it? oh a good hour and a half hour and a half? it's right into the middle of london didn't seem that long last time yes it was we were chatting and that it's a full, have to go er, go off the end, end of the m four yeah yeah i wonder if i'll try m three, m twenty five and then don't go any enter london, enter london cos erm wembley's er first up fairly on aren't we? yeah yeah , how far's then? april was it? no april, may may may fourth i think oh my god get in ah, with this going though mm that's gonna change a lot of things innit? oh which one? the rosea, the big, big hotel, come opposite the bell opposite the bell oh yeah there's a the bell is yeah, but certainly the other one's changed it's name anyway, it's not the rosea not now, but er, it's gone oh it's in the paper cos, a fellow on the way to work said it was and she, graham got married in the may and er they get married in cyprus but they were gonna hold something here they were having one here as well and erm they booked it for the day and they were staying there overnight, cos they were, they've got a house and they were gonna let guests stay at their house and while they stayed up there and then oh dear well i said to her i prefer the cos when i got the paper i had a look and i and she er she said what and she said oh well i don't think i'll phone graham but if maxine shows him the paper, she said i reckon he'll phone them because er, it did say, i think in the paper that the, that she said they're letting everybody know but somebody might take it home with them so er yeah well er the banks call it in or something yeah but that's is that done? it can't be used for anything else i wouldn't of thought no, well no you wouldn't convention hall but er, this hotel and, and banquet hall and innit? and, and they've got erm, well they must be more than the portacabins, but i mean they've got erm places there though oh, yeah they did have something didn't they? yeah, yeah, i don't know what it is no they did have, oh, oh, do what? i'm going to get my clothes oh alright what? i didn't hear that either, don't expect to get dressed like this and get out in it? mm oh, sitting around here oh yeah, that'll be the week we win it won't it? want ten no draws that's yeah yeah, cos when it's got that three it's two two millions eh? two million winners, three ain't there recently? yes, oh that's the er, you can't win any more on no, that's what i mean there have been three big ones very recently, cos like syndicate won it and the old lady won it and that other woman, that younger woman won it right what i've done, all bits together what time do you think we'll be back? i don't know time love, i've no idea what time mm probably be about midnight or just after twelve mm we're thinking about half past ten leave mm only we were stuck there for a little while last time couldn't get out could we? well yeah, that's right , no i think we were all back but we couldn't get out could we? something like that, when did we go, this time last year then? tend to get it don't we, cos er right have we got it all then? yeah, i think so well we've done your yeah haven't i i don't know it's got to be innit? mm well we didn't do any we didn't do anything in that erm bob sleigh, four man bob sleigh no, do you want more tea now then? yeah well they must of thought they had a chance yeah well they must of thought they had a chance our bob sleighs mm mustn't they? mm it's not surprising they don't come anywhere, they've got so much erm hype and pressure mm, mm hankies no, there were two or three in my handbag, i don't think i took it out oh i'll have one then oh if you've got it right oh i put me hand in and i thought don't know what that is okay, off we go, turn everything off, don't leave a light, oh what's that? i think that must of been the old boy over the road you know what the in the paper oh, oh she didn't realise until it was in the paper well i didn't know anything, nothing at all well that's sort of there we are then thank you i think he'd been better for a long time on and off yes he is now oh was he? as long as i can remember we've been up here i think don't you? yeah what? i should of wet my hair down i shouldn't worry about it in this wind, anyway it's not the right time to do it in the wind, as cold as this, is it really? i mean we're gonna get blown apart i think we shall see won't we? mm, can you see with me sitting in the middle? yeah, no, no i don't what car's that one then do you know? no mm it depends where david, erm today don't it? oh could of been could of been that, yeah there's times when they got back look isn't it? mm, oh yeah of course it will be now won't it? what? bloody kid is there, oh yeah, always the way innit? always the way i mean it's like when your trying to cross the road here, especially in the morning yeah me, it made me late on friday did it? yeah yeah i know i had to scoot round church lane yeah the thing is when and i left twenty to yeah, the thing is when i go to work it erm what just down here? about there? down here and trying to get past to get into crick laid mm because you never know whether they're going to turn no you don't, that's quite right, i said no rea , not everybody uses their indicat indicator they don't use their indicators any more no they don't er, if they're, er far, not too far away from the other car mm they'll come round on his indicator mm, that's right, no i'm afraid it's er a bit of a pain, but as i say seven o'clock in the morning mind going yeah off to road, sometimes i don't see a soul, jimmy's about the only one i see mm and another morning there's a stream of cars i think it's being one minute ear early or one minute late mm mm, yeah but i was coming out at half past nine mm yeah, well quarter to, twenty to ten mm yeah i was gonna say you'd think that early yeah, been sorted wouldn't you? lorries there were lorries, cars, the lot mm taxis and one thing i know is they scoot round church lane mm, mm i know and it was busy, but that's beside the point yeah, well it was beside the point because you, you had an appointment didn't you? yeah anyway if you're late it looks bad on you anyway straight away don't it? these are like buying bad old crisps, the other one's there really? yeah generally find that don't you? very, very friendly, but he had his shirt tail hanging out the lot oh god who? at this place she went yeah i thought you little devil go and see the boss or is it over there,whi , which, where? gotta be over there oh i said it won't be here oh good, oh jill's in there already big one? big bus mm right under the mm? right under the, hello okay aah it is a bit innit? yeah right see you gonna what? you told me it'd be over there look did you? used to be here though didn't it? yeah, but er eh? hi hello alright? hello how are you? i'm fine thank you, hi you, alright? yeah no i'm not sitting here, i'm just blocking the gangway here, this will do is it did you want it out? yeah that's your arm innit that one? yeah have you got er, must have a knob somewhere is it under the seat or somewhere like that no you're not in a car i don't know i'll get mick to have a look in a minute ah, ah, is there a little handle at the side, at your side? this one? no there's a, there's a a lever a lever here so have i, have i got one then? that looks have you got? i have got a lever here have you? yeah, down right down yeah i think is done oh dear how many were there then mick do you know? well, forty eight originally another five five five so you should have forty eight? forty eight i think yeah who's missing then? that's it then is it? where's that one? up there the sheridan, i suppose it is innit? sheridan or sheriton's, i don't know whether that's it or sheriton's or sheridon's, sheridan, i don't know ah? well no well no it doesn't, get it right see that's the station mm where they were, howard and pete right were coming up to the erm football i think right and they shutted off if we ever thought to ourselves what we're doing mm you might there, it drops you right oh you certainly are, yeah ain't you? but that, as i say for england and france erm they closed it for some reason who? all the system was closed there, as howard said erm it er a bit of a nuisance they had to go all the way round the houses yeah i don't know how they did it in the end, but mm well it certainly was spectacular though very good weren't it? very good ah? certainly was, as i say i don't think you'll see a lot of, better lot of colour than that no not anywhere oh that illuminist yeah, yeah, it's surprising what you can do ain't it? yeah it was terrific oh tired now tired now, yeah yeah , still it means you haven't got to get on a train or no nothing like that, well that's the beauty of this innit? mm quite honestly oh it was eight till ten that show was on for basically yes yeah yeah what did you say they did it three times? i don't know who was cooking actually they both had their hands oh no quite probably matinee and then the early evening which i thought those people were coming out from look and erm, and this one, good grief fancy doing that be here half a day, you'd think you'd earn the damn money wouldn't you? i don't know i don't think so no yeah probably so if that run is just tomorrow then we just got in didn't we? yeah you know tired ah? tired now yeah what are they? chippendales yes, on thursday that is i know, it'll be worth suffering woolworth's wasn't it? it'll be worth suffering chippendales chippendales on thursday i don't know the programmes are pretty good aren't they? yes and they don't do they? i know they don't hope they're not like that bloke at audrey's i can't wait until we get home, sometimes it goes quite quickly the journey though going home yeah, going home it does yeah, trying to get up there i mean you're waiting to see the show aren't you? yeah so er, it's quite different ain't it still it's not a bad time to come out no is it? and i mean being that he parked there it was perfect weren't it? didn't have a long walk or anything so the next schedule go out is erm is is it? i don't know, is there skittles somewhere? i don't know what they're doing of, i haven't a clue yeah more than one though well he normally gives a little er mm so, right here pretty busy in there isn't it? eh? pretty busy in that restaurant well people do go out to restaurants mm i think it's marvellous they go out to a restaurant mm but really, have you? can't can i go on me own of course you can you can't go on your own, what's, what's there in it going on your own? oh i know, please mm? stuck, he's stuck again isn't he? oh you might get him interested in different things ha, what you never know could do you're never too old to change i'm not so sure about that one oh well oh dear it was good weren't it? it's brilliant but er helen, she missed the best one, ah? it was better than the other one, it might of been the seats but i don't think so because i mean there was so much in this one yeah i mean the other was a nice story, but, i think this year's is better more for the show yeah it was more of a show than a story weren't it? but there was something it brought you to the place and then yeah and then it just it yeah erupted yeah it did my feet ache now my feet are aching now, i've got thick tights on shoes i know but i didn't know how cold it'll be, but that's not a brilliant idea you see , no it isn't a brilliant idea but the thing is we didn't have much further to walk can we? yes we could of done the what? i think yeah, you are, great oh i put my half off, i doubt if i get my feet back in them, but, yeah oh dear ah so you are, sure you will, sure you will then i can sew it up and i've only got the one sleeve, oh one sleeve it's gonna be a good one you know i hope so i can see it, you know, it looks it right when it gets the toggles on it should be okay the what? when it gets the toggles on it should be okay yeah , but it looks like it's gonna be good some of them i don't know what one to do next really well you'll have to decide i mean you i think i'll do another plain one, but this one, some were plain yeah but mm erm, that chunky one yeah it's not just plain, there's so many stitches erm stocking stitch and so many rib mm so mm it'll have some pattern but not terrific amount a terrific mm cos it has two bands of rib yeah oh, oh, oh god well then you can help me unpick it well that won't take long to unpick it will it? no it hadn't been knitted up too long no that's what i don't want for it to er yeah crinkle too quickly yeah, anyway once it's washed it's all gone anyway oh yeah so really that's not a problem no but as you, i'll use that what's not a ha, ha, i bet you will, it won't take that long to unpick it though but i mean you've got a, quite a selection there to choose haven't you? yeah, oh if i can undo that one then i can do the sleeve mm cos that'll be quite mm? that will be quite intra intricate yeah, not much bigger job anyway, innit? yeah well i'll look, i'll see how much of that plum is left i think there's quite a lot of plum and you can't use that much can you? i think it was two balls plenty then innit? for that and and you've got two, well what was in them? you would of got two cos you would of been a big one won't you? just that colour that's right, but i mean all i want it for is the erm body the body and use the black two black feet that's right i think it looked very effective what that woman had on yeah so can do one like that with that mustard up the top shelf yeah it's nice innit? with the black that would stand out wouldn't it? yeah that would be nice, you won't want that much for the sleeve of black, so, do anything with black for ages i saw your andrew the other day eh? i would think andrew doing some probably would three pound balls and three pound thirty, er three pound twenty seven how much was it nine? yeah it was nine, that's right, no it could be quite interesting actually, and then the other way or then you'd do like the four, four, four flares yeah flat back yeah, it's limitless innit, but the other way is to do right down the centre, one on one and one on the other yeah reverse it on the back or have the same on the back no what, what you normally do with those is er, say one half black and one half yellow and you have a yellow sleeve that side yeah and a black sleeve that side that's right , limitless innit? but it would be wise to use the plum before i got the cerise or the sea green well it would yeah, of course it would, well it only sat there anyway again innit? of course it does haven't we? well we always do, i mean if you'd use all that was in that cupboard you'd have half a dozen jumpers i know yeah well i shall use the mohair next yeah, well there must be a fair amount of mohair there is i mean that was an exceptionally good buy weren't it? well what i want is the black and the cerise mm because i'm not sure whether to put all different colours in well i think, i'd just experiment or the black and the cerise and all the jacquards but you must yeah because that could be quite effective that would be effective, but i mean you don't want to do any that you've got to unpick, no that is not viable that yeah, that's why i think if i did all the jacquard in the cerise mm that would show up beautiful mm, yeah i think it would because what they've done on that pattern, why they've got so many different colours, where it mixes so you've got your red and your mm green, they've got like an orangey yeah you know where it crosses yeah you know like that one of howard's jumper yeah, yeah well they've got it so that the colours in the middle sort of mingle mingle yeah and like you've sort of got a yellow and a green, they've put like an olive in that, an olive colour, but i haven't got colours that i can no mix like that not like that no no, that's the thing oh well, oh, as long as you don't have to unpick, because that is awful oh i know it's just a mess innit after? yeah, but i don't know it'll be quite effective yeah, oh yeah, but as i say it's limitless really yeah especially with a unless i go up that shop, top shop and have a look at those gramme balls, yellow, oranges yeah red and got those to put in the black yeah but there again my er how much were they? ninety nine p oh, that's not so bad is it? no but there again but there again you're buying again well i'd put in the cerise and have all the jacquard colours, it, it would look very effective mm it certainly would, it doesn't have to be different colours no, no it doesn't how many black ones are there? i can't remember two no i don't think there was two no just one i think there was only one because they only had one, and i got one white cos they only had one i think, it was the other colours i'm sure i'd got two of, i must of done, cos i mean i've used a lot myself don't i? yeah no i, i would think the black and the white were one, but mind you it goes a long blinking way don't it? well i yeah but i think it was only one and one of those two, i, i'd picked the white up because there wasn't any black, for that first time mm because i thought that was neutral didn't i? erm i don't know if i had them or not i wonder if i've seen one of those three hundred again i think it was it was six balls weren't it? two, four, six but they want seven and i want to put that big bit at the bottom. have i used any black? i haven't have i? no no or was it seventy five ball? i dunno no i think it was fifty, i do, but i'm not sure oh perhaps if we can get over there at the end of the, well it's the end of the month next week anyway innit? oh i mean, you don't know what they've got over there now do you? i mean basically we go there and the meat shop don't we? yeah there's not much else we want to look around at is there? we wanna look at shoes shoes i yeah but then again it's not a brilliant idea going on a for wool when we've got so many oh yeah cos we'll come back loaded up haven't got it right actually, i mean basically we can go up the top shop and buy what we like can't we? get one, o nine, i mean providing you've got enough to do what you want to do in mohair i don't know no you'd have to get all out and have a look, but i mean if i go over there i'll bring back a load of d k and i know i will we'll see. well you see the trouble is when we're buying it over there right you get the left overs we buy six hundred six hundred, yeah which is two hundred per person yeah, well you see it's quite a point you know, cos if we go up the top shop, we just, well the most i would buy is four well that's four pound, four pound well that's what four pound and four nines forty thirty six four pound thirty six where you'd pay two pounds, four pounds for two hundred grammes mm, dunno well we'll see anyway, it depends on you and what you're doing but there again it's better wool that you're buying from the what, at the top shop? yeah yeah yeah, that's a very old make you know, that one's been going for donkey years, but it's those colours, i mean there's at least, well with the o well the trouble is we go over there and we buy a good buy mm but it might not be the colours that we're actually looking for well i, i'm sure it wouldn't be, what did i say i said that sea green and the cerise and i said the mustard the mustard and the beigey one weren't it? yeah er oatmeal er, yeah well that's, that's two jumpers each innit? yeah i mean i've got plenty of black, so mustard and black whatever, whatever, cerise and black or something, that's daft really you know it's very silly i mean nine times out of ten we erm, we just go over there and buy what's there yeah regardless when we come back well what are you going to make with it? see, that's what i've bought patterns now yeah, no well i think that, thinking about it seriously now what i want to find one is one without a well without a well? yeah, so it can hang over trousers oh i see a long one what like a sweat top or some of them does yeah, yeah but i er we know that one, that woman was wearing that white one yeah yeah, yeah now something like that, that can go over a skirt or anything and it's very versatile yeah no, thinking about it seriously it would be better to go up there, have a swifty through patterns you know, you need a bit of time yeah you need a bit of time but then again it'll take me longer to find that one this morning oh, that was when i was waiting in the queue weren't it? yeah mm, it really it caught my eye and i thought well yeah, it really is stupid having all these left overs, alright as i said before i can make all that kid stuff, but in the end i've got too much to take over yeah and then again you don't always wanna, erm start all along, with them do you? no and then you've got different colours that don't really go with that, but anyway i mean i've got a fair pile now to take in august ain't i? yeah no i, well the, the colours that i like you know the cerise and the yeah the green, i can, i, he's says to buy four of them without thinking about it cos they're so nice and that's really the thing that we don't do when we go to basingstoke we start going around saying well which one shall i have, but they said that you haven't looked at it like i've looked at those and you looked at yours because that oatmeal colour will be very, very handy for erm sticking with anything and everything yeah well i mean i've looked round here for a pair of blinking shoes, the only trouble here er had over here is that i've got to go somewhere where they're wide enough and that's littlewoods innit? the only ones here that did a wider fitting that one, er at the time i bought some, well those with the gold on the back was stead and simpson and they did a wider fitting, but i don't know anybody else, but they may now probably do now they may now, but erm, i mean these i've got on are williams, they're an e fit that i, i particularly sent away for yeah well i don't want to do that any more cos you've got to wait three damn weeks nearly for the blasted things to come and then if they're no good you've got to send them back. yeah, but there again you see they're, you're not going into a shop saying oh they look nice no, anyway those plimsolls they're, they're alright yeah now i said the others, they've got to be lace-ups though look, it's gotta be lace-ups it must be easier to find wider yeah because i mean if there, if you've got a high instep it still don't matter because you only widen your laces don't you? yeah well perhaps i'll have a look in town next friday then, i could definitely do with a pair well we could even, oh dear we could even go oh dear yeah don't we? yeah yeah we do cos it's there innit? quite right if we're gonna spend money you might as well go to littlewoods or mm somewhere where it's decent mm, same, the same situation as those clothes yeah weren't it? oh i didn't like them i was, i could see them riding up the leg just like that pair i had on that day and in the end they look so grey and they look like i had a doggy bag the other day eh? doggy bag when their yeah in the end they do yeah they do but they, those others i was quite, you didn't try them on so i no i forgot i was downstairs weren't i so? buy one tomorrow but the material is better and the shape is better yeah and the stirrups are nice they're smart aren't they? yeah but they've got to be long enough in the leg for me yeah they have, but there was people the other night with that type trouser on and boots yeah yeah when i went in the ladies loo there was one woman in there and they did look nice cord ones are beautiful yeah well there again like i said before i tend to rub the cord and then they all everybody does yeah i know they are very stylish yeah i've got mine back on now eh? i've got mine back on, but it won't be long when i get out the bus mind, but say? i said i'll put my shoes back on but i don't know what my feet will be like when i get out the bus yeah it's strange innit coming back? it's just as yeah but it's a clearer road as well yeah, that's, that's fair, yeah, just a different proposition innit? well yes they're all sort of bubbly to get out there yeah we've seen it now were tired not tired now, but i shall want a cup of tea oh yeah i might have a sausage roll the sandwiches are alright, but you can eat them twice as many can't you? yeah you know when they're packed up like that i think cos they're packed up and they're all fresh and mm put the lettuce in and put the tomato in that's right and then oh they weren't bad at all no they were very nice mm, weren't bad at all, oh i had had something but i, i couldn't of ate before we came out no, but i wish i'd brought the pork pies with me, i could of taken that, one of them yes i might eat one when i get out yeah, well whatever, just something otherwise you get up in the morning and you're starving aren't you? still it was well worth coming up here tonight. oh yes oh yeah hello the thinner is really, really easy tomorrow probably do a or something yeah could do, that's a good idea cos that'll fill won't it? yeah, i know you won't have as much oh no, we've got that other cake of yours oh yeah no, better have your cake have my cake? mm well it can stay in there well we'll have a look at it and we might have both no i don't think you'll have both why not? eat it in the evening? eat one of them, i, we have one afternoon like we usually do, we'll have a look at it and see how big it is and all that, yours, and we'll go from there, i mean actually for us three that trifle will only do that, they're never that, that big no oh, i mean if you want to put a tin of fruit with it yeah but that, that makes it large, large we'll have a look at the coffee thing that looked a bit scrumptious that yeah i'm surprised at him eh, start thinking about as much as i guess i'll give him a kick up the arse if he oh he won't say no to me oh not very often anyway oh erm that's right yet? yeah no yeah he is it won't be long well we'll soon know if he snores oh he's awake then well he was nodding oh what's the time then? oh i don't know, i don't know nearly eleven, this stop it is, i make it a couple of minutes past no, i think it's a good run, it can't be that late oh, we'll be in well before twelve i hope so, yeah i wonder where we are then? isn't it clever how they changed the co costumes, er like that pink what with the lines? with the black, you know it had the black bit as well oh yes , that was brilliant i mean that man, what's his name? or something a brilliant programme wasn't it? yes, always worthwhile getting one it is, i slipped up on chess one that was at the front i slipped up on that chess one i got the black and white one yeah velcro velcro that's probably his professional name innit? yeah, that was her favourite one that was zoe's was it? i think that was very clever, very, very clever that's the one i liked brilliant aren't they? well they are make a thing like that take it to work and show the girls she was brilliant yes she was i think that, which one was the other one that was i don't know because i said to you oh i had a super view yeah that's gorgeous that is they look ever so perfect have those two colours together brilliant yeah brilliant they're ever so heavy them aren't they? yeah i bet well they'll last for a long time mm, that one, i don't know though didn't have a blonde woman see and i never, i didn't, i didn't realise there was two and i really did not and i suddenly there's, they all come out on the ice i think didn't they? i'd be surprised if she never get erm, her mansion in her her what? her sort of own mansion unless she was one of the poorest she shouldn't be well no she shouldn't be but since going she just suddenly appeared didn't she? yeah that one yeah but that was the dark haired one weren't it? don't matter, must of had it done eh? i think she's had it highlighted oh if you look at her face she had quite a pointed nose oh, no i didn't really matter that her? she's in washington is it really? is she? seattle mm i don't know then oh this one jane taylor yeah a bella blo , blonde from whitney bay i've got a feeling cos they do, but when rings a bell the top trainers at home and abroad, claire hurst, the national and international championships , i've seen her on ice on the oh i thought oh i, i, i seemed to remember the whitney bay bit and i mean i don't know what i've done with the blinking programme last year, i mean they're all in the magazine rack, but i don't think that one's there that was terrific that weren't it? oh when i had this one it went over to oh didn't it? oh that's been and gone then innit? i didn't think of that you know unfortunately it went yeah that's right , and i thought to myself what if, i wouldn't of thrown it away, i keep all my programmes we should of got two really shouldn't we? never thought of that you know oh well, where you going we learn a lot of things but then again as i say there it goes innit? yeah, have some good times brilliant costumes though mm i don't know if it tells you how much this production cost but i know it said something about, oh the one thing or something shaun powell, that's a nice name innit? yes i like that that one yeah that's it that's brilliantly , very brilliant whoever thought those up it's unreal innit? that was particularly good weren't it? yeah that really was they remind me of liquorice all sorts that's it, that's it yeah it's sort of that er look about it innit? i could do with a cup of tea now i know that, oh i couldn't see that signpost i don't really know what's that then? choreography choreography? yeah oh that must be a high point in a career you know, when you first see them go out yeah of who thought it all up, the opening night i should say so so what's he? he's the president, he's the costumier, what's this chap of travelling secateurs we welcome you up with him, for audition please contact local show office, in city where we perform, qualify you to be a trained figure skater, at least seventeen, not older than twenty six, for further information please write to ms at switzerland, oh there, look oh that's what? caroline , alison oh i see yeah they don't give you pictures of everybody no, i didn't even look at it, apart from the pictures in the book ain't they? yeah you know, they are in there but oh not individually is it? yeah i think it was caroline yeah oh dear that's the one isn't it? what? what? that she that was awful them weren't it? well it has to give the effect cor dear me , straight out it has to give you that effect i thought it was marvellous eh? i thought it was marvellous so did i, well that's certainly worth the money, i know it's a lot of money oh yeah but, you do it, if you think of it individually, what are you gonna do for that money anywhere else? exactly i mean we all saved what one fifty each on it? it's thirteen fifty a ticket, it's erm, i don't think you can moan at a night out for that, especially a night out like that what was that? anyway nobody's gonna want to get up tomorrow sorry? nobody's gonna want to get up tomorrow oh well shame i didn't want to get up this morning so i said to i said to ernie oh you'll have to go and call her of getting out weren't it? but we were out, he was very good, i mean i know he was waiting there for us but not really with all things considered we did a lot didn't we? yeah and i forgot that plastic card didn't i? anyway i get the opportunity, oh you didn't look in that box for that baby well we'll have a look first, but we do want salad cream don't we? yeah got lettuce to eat mm so we've got to get some oh we'll have to go somewhere snazzy cos i've got that black dress to wear haven't i? oh big dance eh? big dance in may can't wear that again oh you wore it there didn't you? yeah oh have to wear it to kate's yeah, that's an idea sell it to them one of them at work doesn't it? mm, i expect so, yeah you see no at kate's it'll be nice won't it? and hopeful the weather will be better i just have to make sure mitch is nowhere near er actually i don't even know if he'll go oh i expect so, i expect so er they'll be plenty of other people there for god sake, i mean oh, he's slimy though mm, well he'll probably be there on tuesday again, that's what he said no that'll be the third time no, yeah, well that'd be twice we've seen him oh yeah looks like looks like him looks like his night, don't it? er probably goes in have a look, cos he's got to be thirty something, i don't know what now oh i don't know , you got yeah yes don't let me swim on my back on thursday why? if i swim on my back i don't do my front yeah well it's not really the wisest thing to do on a thursday night anyway i cheat when i swim on my back yeah, but not only that when you get a couple of dickheads like we had oh i know you know you've got to watch them, they're not watching you, you've got to watch them that's what puts me off, when we have those two yeah and we went on that other side well we'll have to watch it this week and if er that annoys me when i get yeah people like that well it does me on a night like that, because the majority of people are either having a damn good lazy swim but there's the lanes, there are nights when it's just even lanes i know yeah so they just have no, very annoying that, i mean that bloke going backwards and forwards is bad enough but oh he's a right pain but then obviously that's all he does or what he does i mean which is yeah, but he's not a bad swimmer well he don't seem to be a bad swimmer at all he really don't he just don't like going down to the deep end maybe but it is difficult when people do that because i mean the majority of us are going up and down and you get this one that's going across and but the majority of people on a tuesday night are going for a leisurely swim aren't they? yeah, they're going for a swim yeah but but not tearing about, anyway if they're of course i mean it'll be a little different this week, won't it? yeah, well you're gonna go again tue er monday no oh dear you never know liz might come tomorrow tomorrow? er monday might, well quarter past gone anyway don't even know where we are actually just gone past mick's services have we? oh dear, dear me oh don't do that yes i think i'll have a look at this lot tomorrow actually yeah it's nice to read them because you know shame we couldn't got one of them other ones last year yeah, i never though of that and i doubt if i get it now, all i think was well i know that i got it in the magazine rack well have a look down there, it's just by the fridge and the card i tell you what erm, that'll have to be done by that, that cake thing you bought oh yeah i never took one blinking photograph did i? why not? people did though didn't they, anything you want down the shop? pardon? anything you need down the shop? no i don't want nothing what did ann then just wanted to talk? er no er it was about that jumper look oh of course yeah of course you wrote her didn't you? yeah and er , yeah and she said i love the colours but it's coming out, it comes out a forty eight inch yeah , yeah and she said if i could try it before oh, er what? no she said erm, if, if i could try it oh i wait until that blessed lot's gone do what? all that blasted lot out here oh erm, no she said if i could try it mm erm have it made and try it yeah she said well then, then that'll be fine yeah but i said to her oh i don't think i'd have it done no forty over pounds yeah just well and a forty eight gotta buy gotta buy a new one innit? well that's what i said to her you'll probably find something around, but i mean it was a nice, it is a nice pattern yeah but there's nothing smaller than the first size ha and also she said she's heard from pauline yeah and they were all fine, erm getting on with that place as good as they can yeah because erm they haven't heard about their extension no and erm, she said er pauline asked where your mother's coffee set was, little coffee cups and all that and i said i don't know i've never seen one yes well i've never seen a coffee set no she said it was all packed up in a box and i said well you wouldn't see it then would you? yeah, no and she said er, i said what she want it then? so she said well must of just thought about it yeah she wants it mm and she'd like it and so she well i'll ask jean mm erm jean might be going out to see that new marks & spencer's somewhere, there's a new big one being built out yeah it's, it's not anne's way but it's not far i don't think no, yeah and she might take daphne with her yeah and she said she'd ask them mm but er well i don't know what she's talking about i don't know yeah what she's talking about you know, because i said well the bits that daphne brought here yeah, well i say er i mean obviously pauline remembers it from some when don't she? well that's right, i mean how, how long ago nobody knows must of been one mustn't they? ah? i said there must of been one oh yeah, yeah, certainly but it, it don't ring a bell with me well i, i mean if it was wrapped up in a box yeah but ann said erm perhaps she gave it away well she did yeah, she did give some away she did give mrs didn't she? i mean i remembered some of it, i, i remember hearing something that she'd given some bits downstairs yeah, yeah yeah but erm, i said well i dunno, i said i, i don't ever remember seeing it no but at the same time if it was, if it's in boxes you well you wouldn't you're not gonna see it no but pauline must of remembered it perhaps for the all the times your mum had well any of you yeah i mean wouldn't get nothing out like that yeah it must be something that they've had er they yeah had for years and erm, you know yep packed away in a box, but i suppose pauline thought about it yeah so the problem is if nobody knows about it you start that all over again mm don't you? yeah cos you know that, that happened before yeah when that, over the teapot yeah at er, i, i don't remember anything, anything at all, but she said, i told her about the baby, she didn't know about that yeah and er, she said i, i said have you heard from paul, because the last time i spoke to her she hadn't no and she said yeah he's fine he's having a super time yeah and she's heard from tanya, one letter oh and er she was with colin yeah but now she's moving on, and another girl's going out this week or next week to er join them yeah so, that'll be about three i think ha i can't remember, three of four perhaps yeah and er she said i won't hear for a while because they're gonna move on now yeah but where they going now? ah? where they going from malta then? they're not in malta they're in australia yeah yeah, went to perth yeah to start off and then erm, i think they went for work permits or something yeah you know i think so but really liking it yeah but er, she says i've gotta get off of the phone cos i've, when i, when i told him i was gonna phone you he went oh no well he will won't he? morning morning thirty four love hi you wen hi you, alright? alright my girl? yeah oh we've got a good morning ladies see you bye just a bit over is that alright? yeah fifty four one eighty five then thank you can i have er, a quarter of pink bon bons up the end please? and a quarter of the chocolate ones same bag i suppose yeah that'll be fine, yeah ta thanks very much two eighty two then please thanks very much seventeen, eighteen thank you i bought that card for that baby oh and she wanted salad cream oh i mean there's all that salady bits and i got yes i got some coleslaw so right perhaps make a bit more well i of it eh? they're what? they're opened up now yeah right it's the last one yeah yeah well i say once the thing's done, then it's done innit? you, you know, i got some coleslaw, so, that'll make a bit more of that won't it? mm and salad cream cos you've got sausage rolls haven't you? yeah so quite honestly you ought to be able to make a a bit of something out of it there's over there that's a pretty little card innit? mm what's this one then? for deaf people and blind oh well we either have that war film this afternoon or the errol flynn don't we? well that's a war one as well innit? oh is it? yeah oh drinking chocolate mhm, they are nice, i'll have that one well we still haven't got one, i know we've got the kit-kats, but we still haven't got bits to pick have we? well we didn't have but we have now, mm we didn't have, do you want tea now? mm please sets, that's a set look that's what i meant oh, i wouldn't think of that, oh dear well they're putting on a show that's what it's all about get those two done he says he ain't got much no, but i took the bits that i wanted, and my bits and i'll try and get on that ask to go in there is there? just wanna put a little thing that, i mean i've written her a letter, i just put a little thing that erm dooby, dooby, dooby do, dooby, dooby, do well i could put a little sticker on clare's hadn't i? that little blue sticker clare yeah yeah only i've finished the letter what you got? well i put in there would you pass this thing on, just in case there's any confusion, i put in there i hope annalise and erm ian liked the raincoat and jacket for the baby she'll know what it is won't she? eh? i said she'll know what it is yeah do you want a biscuit or something? i just bought er the, which ones do you want? i'll have a digestive, we've got to finish them off well yeah only we didn't really eat last night properly at all did we? no good old flipper do what? good old flipper oh is that now? haven't had that for a long while i didn't see on there really mm? i said i didn't see on there oh i see i know yeah oh i see should be about right shouldn't it? mm, looks like it, pretty little cardigan innit? mm actually down there you know i'm not what you do, cos i've got to finish on the other side mm, mm so that i'll mm, i've got a long way to go yet then have i? not if erm, the longer the jumper it looks well doesn't it? wear it on, you don't know do you? i'm quite sure i don't i don't know much about it no but as i say i've sat and done this mm cos i wanna do something else that's right like that? ann said hold on to the pattern, she said i don't know what to do, erm knit them i know how she's done it, yeah well if i did all that again yeah that's gonna be quite well you'll have to see how much black there is cos that'll be quite effective won't it? mm but you see i want to put that extra bit on the bottom you see mm , well if there's only one pocket which i'm sure there is you won't have enough no is the back quite i don't know it's a good way of doing it, innit, there's no messing about is there? oh no start again oh it is, oh mm follow the pattern, but there again this stuff goes a long way mm, it does so i might chance it what's the needles? fours and four and a half mm so it's not double knit? no, oh no, did i try it on smaller needles? no i tried it on smaller needles you did but that was on tens, i've done it on tens mm but oh you did it's just a bastard to do this rib yeah and get the rib going yeah i don't remember whether it was you or, or me cos ours was seven red er seven blue, black mm but if it knitted sort of like it did not before yeah well you can leave out the pattern there can't you? yeah just in case you, i reckon, i think it's too big cor, that would be mm i wonder why, whether it would be too striking not with the colours you've got i wouldn't of thought no with erm, just the purple, you know i was gonna do it all cerise mm, i dunno what no because the black's gonna take it off innit? the black should take it off mm certainly cor look at that awful innit? oh god, were it erm awful mm that's where they are, all yeah cor let's have a look now and see whether oh what's no, i mean they might not be, but, i wonder, they put it in there once a month oh you know the big spread that i saw that time i dunno i don't remember the paper i only look at the front and the back on a friday, well pick it up and have a look travel club yeah, tell me, right that's, that's it, i thought i wore that right theatre trip joseph how much? seventy nine join us in a weekend trip is that a weekend? mm yes not bad is it? miss saigon no i don't fancy that one somebody i know went oh yeah, yeah ah, but joseph is a sightseeing one as well but miss saigon is a bed and breakfast mm, well seventy nine quid is not bad you know, when you go up saturday? thirteenth of march and fourteenth of march so mm no look theatre trip to joseph it says join us on a weekend trip to see one of andrew lloyd webber's famous, famous, fabulous it says, that's why i try and fabulous productions, also a sightseeing tour of london, seventy nine pounds, miss saigon, don't miss this great opportunity to see this smash hit musical prices include bed and breakfast and a visit to covent garden how much is that one? seventy nine quid so the seats are cheaper mm stratford and the cotswolds, grand national, lakes and mountains, flying scotsman there are rather a lot you know windmills and waterways, that's not granada, amsterdam who? granada oh and amsterdam, four days, three nights, bed and break how much? a hundred and thirty nine oh that's not bad is it? euro disney no that's not a bad price how much? fifty nine a night walking for ebbw vale garden festival, chester and the north, north wales, portugal, two hundred and twenty or two hundred and seventy nine for eight days not bad no it's not this holiday gives you the choice of either hotels or self catering, situated in the beautiful coast coastal town of travana, summer in cha , chateau six days, one bed and breakfast, four half board you want coal fire lighting or are you alright? half board, edinburgh tattoos erm kentish gardens and oh that goes round the area that's a hundred and eighty nine not bad though is it? no it don't say how long though mm, i'd of thought that no or las vegas mm, mm this weekend like, actually made my arm ache, i don't know haven't been doing it have you? what? what a long weekend for two? is it? oh well tick me off if it does well, let's see, you haven't been doing it, i mean regular for exercise innit? mm yeah, oh a lot of it you use all that this week? i tan your arse oh i wouldn't i don't have to be down one night then presumably yeah, i, er, ah, well you heard what i said it will be nice, he said yeah, so, after work i suppose, well before there i'll go down, he'll help himself, it's just he can't take any more mm i said he can't take any more than what there is cos there ain't no more flipper mm yeah mm, what, something i what i was watching the other night erm, what on earth was, something, it was nineteen forty seven that were, it was er, it was an old repeat mm nineteen forty seven i saw the thing, not a film, a, a show a show? and i thought bloody hell bloody hell i mean a show yeah, that's that's a long i mean we've got an old errol flynn there yeah, ah films i mean you expect to go back, but this is, what on earth was that? er what like a variety or what? mm or perhaps a quiz show that started then, you know. when's that des o'connor thing on then? that michael miles thing? when is it? mm dunno not to, i know we saw it the other night didn't we? yeah , yeah i wonder that's not bad is it? miss saigon with tickets, with staying a lot about erm forty two fifty it was on about, last night on he'd obviously been talking about, erm people, they're trying to get a trip done, aspect of love what's that one then? quarter past that one that michael ball sang in, that, that erm andrew lloyd webber's mm other one mm with his wife mm what in sarah brightman? yeah oh that's fair innit yeah but there again but they erm, i told what, that never arrange it and then borrow some figures why that's right, i mean that might be the best idea in the end well yeah, we, we talk about it but didn't it? yeah i know they did talk about this doreen and owen, because er michael has told us down the pub, if they had more than a week's notice yeah well no, that's right erm i'm not, you know erm, i mean well this is why er rose would of had all four if she'd of known about it earlier but the thing is mick you've gotta get, you know yourself sorted early enough yeah, that's right and if people don't pay then they lose them if they all said yeah we'll go for them as i say, if they said , you know i mean i, i don't know whether that much will take a lot typically it's their own bloody fault but drop, pop it over one look innit? well i mean when they put their names down they yeah i, i don't care it happening again i tell you that well no i'm sure it won't well it's been a what? it's, it's been hassle because do you want any more of these bev? only we, we lost sixty, sixty five pound yesterday yeah didn't we? sixty three pound yeah, but the whole point you can go bruges oh you know that's where yeah, but the whole point mick is, it's hassle yeah, yeah innit? yeah i mean and the annoying part about it yeah, well, that for both shows because there was an extra demand yeah, but that in itself gotta stop yeah that yeah aspect of it has gotta yeah, i mean we, we've turned to thirty three this time because it's a thirty three seater now that can be the erm now i know it's a funny thing but this time because of demand it was forty eight, now alright out of that forty eight three was still, right one was in hospital so you can well no you're gonna get this all yeah the time yeah but er jill gave her her money back but the whole point is mick you are stipulating yeah an x-seater yeah coach and if it comes out like helen and pete like that and they're, they're gone and the others haven't, no wonder it's been up on your wall yeah that's right but the whole point is you see, if er for bedsit there's a demand for the chippendales now then yes she's got a list did you know? yeah yeah, well i thought she had one at mm innit? mm but the only thing, the, the next thing is now collecting the money early enough mm and what is that june? oh i don't know when that was cos we june weren't it bev? eleventh i think it is well anyway i know it's a thursday it's a coach it's a thursday june's i know it's it's the sixth of june and we shall shortly be do our right and the only thing we've got on, i mean after tonight er it's got nothing to do with me anyway kate's was june the sixth, june the seventh was the june the eleventh is it, if june the eleventh is a thursday then that's june the eleventh that's the, that's the one mm yeah, kate's anniversary is the july i thought that was no they've just got land i think now. and the bungalow's too big! i mean it's erm either get one or two bedroomed bungalow can't you? yeah, and i say, you know i mean obviously it's too big but i mean not from from the point of view that the buildings are right outside of them ain't they? mm. i think that's what er,i as much as anything to spoil them. yeah. yeah. but i mean i, i see no point in all of us going out and looking for presents. mm. no. cos you only come round with oh wha little bits and i mean, if we spent a tenner each. i know you get nothing for a tenner but if you spend hundred pound you can you do. get something quite nice for a hundred pound. well i mean , but and then, i i don't know how much that garden furniture costs. that that, i mean you know it's pretty erm yeah . it can be pretty i know. pricey because of what glen and george bought! well wha , i mean before we never had a hammock weren't it? that's right. cos it got a bit pricey so i thought, we could of bought one about half. yeah, but i, no, i did. yeah. we'd have had one but they got dearer and dearer and dearer! yeah, but there was no mick. i mean th , the amount of time we have to sit in the blasted garden anyway is er nothing innit? i must remember that though because erm i mean to gi give our erm erm time. some time or all three of them. when do you go down town? friday. oh, not before? well i don't know. why? er, well, if you do and erm don't go special, because it's er not essen er, it's my turn to buy the draw prizes. i had a quick look round yesterday but i ain't got a clue! and what what but anything up to you know, ten fifteen pound. fi , pay fifteen pound first prize. don't matter about the rest, there's some in the bird box i can fill in, but i can't just well, isn't the argos book out yet? mm. yeah, suppose so. i mean, the arg i dunno. argos book's got yeah. everything! yeah. you can sit here yeah. i mean we'll, we'll have a look later yeah. on. yeah. i'll well what sort of thing? what do you want men and women or well . i mean the is it because we had more money, we spent more money last time, we bought a erm a men's and a lady's watch and that went down a treat. yeah, well cos that's that's well tony won it but i mean it still went down a treat. what , so it's not you want something that's universal for the first one. well not necessarily that, i mean, people buy when they go, i mean, i've always just gone straight away and got a nice bit bottle of booze and er yeah well something like, that can get boring! wanna drink some drink and that. but i i i'll sell more on the shop floor. but i won't sell so many in the office. no. no. no, i mean it can get a bit of a boring yeah. yeah. not got . i mean round christmas and that see it's it's it's a bit of well but i mean there's so much in here. and i mean, obviously i'm not saying that you ought to buy it anywhere else no. but but i mean i've got prizes of yeah, well er er er er the i i i was just thinking about a if i couldn't find anything else a fifteen quid voucher for somewhere. but i it's always nice to see the article i think. yeah. yeah. you know? it's the sort of thing you say, cor that's nice! innit? and how much you spending? fifteen. well it's about fifteen quid and that leaves us the opportunity to get six or eight little-uns little ones, yeah. so that'll be . oh! but erm i mean, anything,i if we went to twenty it wouldn't matter. it wouldn't? no, i got about forty anyway . you've done camera. we done pra practically everything i should er think. camera yeah. well i mean you won't well what about a cassette ? we've done that. we've done that. erm i mean everything yo you can buy is in here. cordless telephone, we did that. innit? you know? mm. but you still wanna a something. you want something for all people. that's a phone's mm mm. do it ? don't you? you get, i mean, you've gotta make the people yeah, well i'll get it interested. well i i mean it doesn't matter to us as far as that goes as long as they are erm well what the whole thing is they put get something for us out of that. you know,i i they've gotta be willing to part with that bit of money. no! but that don't matter cos the same ones buy er whatever it is. but you do like to ha , give them something that will be useful to them. well of course you do! course you do! well i mean, i say you won't actually get a better selection than looking in here will you? no. all there innit? you know. right. oh it's how much is that fork and spade? thirteen thirteen pound. oh! see that. you know but there again not everybody has a garden! well, doesn't matter . the majority do don't they? well i do think the majority do, yeah. but then you don't have something to draw the women. mm. i mean, i know it gets difficult. course it does. as i say, if you look through this book then yeah. quite honestly what you gonna find elsewhere ? yeah, i i mean i,or all i i went in a single shop. no. all i did was looking in the windows. yeah. but i mean, gill would go out and i said i'd give her a if if we did it e er turn and turn about you only have to find one about once every eight weeks like. yeah. and whilst she bought the the first one last week, yvette, did the rest. does she? mm. so you're actually looking for one thing? and then, then i will just fill in with the rest. then you do get bottles of wine and boxes of what about a clock? we done it before. but unless it's a, no well if it's a nice one then hell of a selection! i know they're dear ones but i don't think there's any more on the previous page to that one though. but it's a nice drawer i would think. if it's a, if it's a nice i mean i presume they do erm . that's a . yes, no i'm right. i'm sure they do them, cos you can get them on the christmas club can't you? i'm sure you can get an argos. but i don't always think personally, it's a they got a clock radio present. they got an alarm radio. yeah, when you see the thing. mm. oh! course but i mean look at those, they're gorgeous aren't mm. they? well . oh they don't? they can't , they can't have them on,bu but i mean er it's just that always, always go round the table like erm the draw, the top prizes, for that, that's all we need oh that's beautiful! to do. what's that? that's a bit dear! yeah. wouldn't get that prize . beautiful! i can't really see it but i can see what it yeah. but there's a lot there in my, on that other page why don't you go and have a look. i mean, the thing is the they're not you know, some of them are not that nice but er well it sells, it's got to. can't have . well you got that one that one the dearest one is nineteen ninety nine in that section. right? now that, that's a pendulum one. mm. they've got three pendulum, four pendulums. that's nice, get that. mm. that's a nice wall clock! mm. clock hairdryer? have you had a wall clock or have you just had a clock? no. but no i don't she had a wall, i don't know! we've had so many over. i mean a wall clock is an nice additive to the room. over five years bloody prizes! mm! it's get a bit out of hand! well tha that's what i say! it's a , i mean it were the same at christmas weren't it? when we were going to have that that . yeah. well that did because that thing didn't know what to do any more! no, well that's a i bet a video recorder is now down within that range, virtually! settle for something. i mean it's not the best. and you get them hundred and fifty odd quid can't you now? and we one before that one was only because they were too much! too dear! well that one was . mm. i don't know what they were this year but i mean that was not much dearer than that. who? there's a ? yeah, have a think. they are. a lot of people now are collecting those. but there's two big as i say, i er well i've just said to you, i mean er we sell forty odd quids worth to blokes. yeah. the offices are i think the offices are i think, for the offices between them were ten pound fifty last time. out of forty quid like. and two big wall clocks there. yeah. good idea! i'll have a look first. i mean there's radios and yeah, i, like i say we, we done there's that. we done all that erm wa , walkman all that sort of thing we've done at one time or other. well i say if you scout through this book mick they've got an yeah. an enormous range! well that's right. and if you go round the shops, yeah mm. you might find something a little different, but i mean it's the what sweets did you get? ay? what sweets you get? erm you got, they're uninteresting ain't they? mm? they're uninteresting aren't they? uninteresting? there's nothing down there! unless you unless you want got aren't you? there's liquorice allsorts there! oh! i see. you've opened them have you? mm! well i, i never done the book mick. spotty line won't it? well mick, you won't find a bigger selection than argos. mm! i i think the prices are bloody good! see it's nought point one . oh good! not everybody wants it. well no, not everybody wants that sort of thing. well not everybody likes them. no, that's right! anyway, what . yeah. right, do you want to stretch that? see how it is. oh yes, that's your best bet mick. mm. oh that's and those two big clocks there. that was that would make a nice additive to anybody's house. that's it. mm. i would say so. i mean, that thing is with argos mick it saves you walking round the blasted town! well that's right! you know i mean well, as i say, i've been all down through the . and as i say again, i never went into a into the shops, i only saw the expensive stuff really. mm. but it's the time it takes you know , rumbelows innit? you know, i mean dixons. yeah, well they're all there but but at least i,a , they're altogether you see, that's why i went round. i'm just , you know thinking of the time. mm. when do you have to have it by? oh er as long as i've got it friday morning, but i lo , i need to know by why don't you then? wednesday i should think. i mean, i can go to town it's no . no! no! no! it won't bother me now. well it's not necessary at all! and anyway, if you, if you run in if you say mm. it's a wall clock. just let's say it's one of these wall clocks. all you gotta do is is just phone up and give them your well er, just to make sure that it's there. you could phone up and see if it's there, yeah. but, failing that, you know, if yo if you're going in town anyway i can write the ticket out cos i got one here mm. and you just walk in with it, that! mm. but if you phone up and they've got one they reserve it for you but you have to get it that day, weren't it bev? so what's your next erm they were asking on the . what's your next item then? skittles. skittles, that's what they're good! she said. but when i and they play with them oh! well i couldn't remember nothing about it! no, i can't either. it's march, but when in march i don't know. no, oh you're alright but i'll come in a sec . and the they want me to do the . mm. well that don't really interest me. no. not a bit. well , i've nearly dropped out but if you went along with well i could come along in the evening perhaps. well the evening, afternoon. okay. late afternoon. yeah. but i don't find that . well they might wanna go er now there's two of you. dunno. why not? no, don't know. that is the answer. i don't know. well i suppose we . mm mm ! that's what it seems, mine, mine goes out of town at least don't they? they are here anyway. oh i re remember that programme . he likes it! oh well i'm doing this anyway. don't laugh bev! well it's boring! right erm what about a barometer? have you had a barometer? prefer a wall clock. so would i. and you shut the door and out of that thing there. that's if he's willing to go up to twenty. mm. nineteen eighty nine, that's a nice one! nice one for fourteen ninety nine! i like the big tall one. mm. well that's nineteen eighty nine. yeah. but also they're fourteen ninety nine, very nice! and it's got a pendulum. look. oh! they're all nice aren't they? i wonder what size they are? does it say? yeah, probably. mm. number four is sixteen by ten, by one and a half. sixteen mm. and one mm. half. mm. number five is nineteen and a half by twelve by two and a half. and number six don't tell you. diameter eight inches across. right. two year guarantee. oh, both of them here, either of those. mm. but that one's not bad you mm. know. mm. it's got a pendulum. yeah. and that's fifteen quid! mm. well wha , what i'll do, but i stick that yeah. that's bit look. mm. i mean these are all much too much. mm. i'm not ooh, is that all? i don't think anybody would er quibble about winning an any of those. alright.. right, i'm gonna go with bevvy now. don't know whether harold's at home today, cos he got all them people ain't he? mm? caroline and peter and marlin . she's burying your wood love. he does. i know. like he's gonna grow trees or something! i dunno! well i dunno what you do without it, i'm telling you!. muggy . er er oh, cos muggy out there, in the . i know that! what i just said! mm. well my hair was wet look. yeah. what if he wants you to go tonight bev? yeah. it will be the opportunity to post that parcel won't it? yeah. mm. well i'll let him have a look later today. but i don't think you'll get a better selection than that anyway. no. i say if you, if you did decide on something and wanted it give me an opportunity to post connie's parcel. anyway, i doubt very much if i want to stay in all blasted week anyway! well with this oh i don't know it's up to you. this weather and that, i mean it's depressing innit? well i say, if we did and you just took it in and i went in the next day and picked it up. yeah. well it, i mean let's face it it isn't gonna be no bigger than a clock is it? well no, no. no, too right!deciding what we're meant to be having. yeah. lots of . oh yeah! so it can people in. and i know we have the bottles of wine. sherry and, in town anything done tomorrow. just phone up . i mean they, everybody knows there's only one main prize. well . that's the wo , and they're always up . oh no, well i mean something that called out ev once a fortnight don't you? no. that not the point no. is it? i mean christmas ones are an enormous prize anyway aren't they? yeah. bits and bobs anyway so i ain't never won one. oh well i suppose later on in the day if you have a look. i gotta go out tomorrow anyway. yeah. and i mean he will determine i mean, cos i say, i gotta go go round lesley's but there again there's so much on the go again. maybe . maybe you can. one last sunday. i'll try to. oh well we voted for you to go there last time. i know, well sounds like as well. mm. that's why you said it's like at this job wasn't it? well it's one fifty down long enough amount of time . for you to pick up a mm. a . well i shall pick one of them. yeah. what does it mean? oh it's only it's got erm i mean i can se , see where it is and what it is in the yeah. morning but evening time i could do it love. yeah,. mm. mm, your . over the magnets, one of those little unit clap things on the the estate where we got the car . yeah. i don't know, but i would imagine that. mm? i said to mum i said works out that i get it mm. and that it's too far to walk in the mornings and that mm. i see if i can a few of erm one of those mm. well i said, they know it's no problem, you said no. didn't you? so er i mean if it turned out to be twelve weeks work. no, don't take this the wrong way! no. i won't do you still owe me a thirty pound? mm. ah. forgot all about it. no, don't matter. oh! that were part of it that's all. i forgot all about it. it's alright. well i should hope somebody give it to me. i, you know, usually for the hundred tonight i meant to be served up one packet and that means wednesday buying about. no, that'll do anyway. what do you want. no! no no it don't! everybody forgets something. i thought you was gonna be,like that, i was just wondering. you little stirrer mum! if it wasn't for that i'd i so , can't get what i should of done. no, but you are actually. you said it! paid my ransom! yeah. i mean they work out so regular now that er well i haven't worked down there lately yes, yes, yes actually. yeah. yeah. cos they were a pain! yeah. too full! so that i the last time i was down there and i they opened up the door to go and get some cos they had hundreds in there. thousands, in fact, i would say. what in the cupboard? yeah. are they all blue though? yeah. oh! cos i thought they were doing some. i bet they were, they bet there were two or three thousand of them. yeah. but what they full. we're doing full. was getting all this enormous load of black ah. and then erm well, so you are as normal then? well, yeah, i do what i can but well i don't think so. as i mean i've gotta have a look at the till on that yes, but . if i'd have known about that, if it goes, it goes and it don't we should get something out of it. well erm i put another tripper on that. no! no! and erm alright! dunno how long that'll take for me. , no. ah? you're not gonna go far or nothing with it are you? no. yeah, i'll cut it off. oh now oh oh oh,! i'll cut them down then bev, ay? what? the that goes in the chipper. yeah. i'll cut them thin. yeah i'll well i think you'll have to cos i don't think don't like them too big, don't want them too big anyway do we? no. two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen twenty two. two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen two, four, six, two, eight, two, fifty four, fifty five fifty five. eight, ten mm mm. ay? two mm, i'm counting now. oh! two, four ten,eighty six, seven, eight ten, two, four, six . two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight thirty, two, thirty four, thirty six, thirty seven i'll be able to sew this up this afternoon. yeah. i know you said you were able to didn't you? yeah. oh yeah, that's good! and this'll be your easier one to sew up cos it's blue. yeah. these spuds aren't much good you know. no? i'll have to tell him, no! he probably have to go out to where simon went . yeah. no, they're ripe like hell! well it's been a very cold, cold winter. i know. it's been ice cold that's why. yep. mind you, i still say i like the reds. yeah. they're a much better potato. well if i go on like this we'll be getting another bag next week! oh dear!actually there but you know what i mean. yeah. right. i'll go and look at that potato thing and the meat and then i'll see. see what we have to do cos the meat won't take long will it? shouldn't do. i'll give lesley a ring in a minute. yeah. cos she ought to be down there this morning didn't she? we haven't seen helen for ages now have we? no ho. when she come up with them photos i suppose was the last time weren't it? must of been mustn't it, that day? yeah. what the hell is microwave film? it's a load of shit! what is that then? gotta have it. you've got to have it? yeah. no, it's still in there, this is,gotta go in the fridge for four hours. it's like cling film but it's microwave . well what if i don't get it? must have it do you? yeah , it says it! take it out the foil tray erm put in a well, a pyrex and erm cover with micro co microwave film. cover it with a lid. does that matter? i would imagine it's doing exactly the same. christ, it's only up , microwave film only just come out! has it? it ain't been out that long. bring in your microwave know how. yeah. this has gotta defrost for four hours in the fridge. oh well. good job i almost got it weren't it? dunno where i gotta put it, mind but still it's probably cold enough out there to be the fridge. ay? i said it's probably cold enough out there. no, well i'll put it in . where's the microwave know how then? ah? that big one? yeah. i can't reach it. bring me the little book, that might have it as well. i can't reach the big one. no, the little one. oh right. well i mean, they might sell it down the shop but i never heard of it. it says here mm. cover and wrapping, wrapping food. yeah. what in there? ah? in the microwave? yeah. yeah. by covering the food during microwave cooking you can speed up the cooking procedure. this also prevents splattering and juices all over the cooker wall . that's the gravy. yeah. it would be, yeah. right. yeah? there are several ways of covering food oh right. use a tight fit lid mm. to a dish mm. or use a saucer or plate to cover. mm. use cooking bag cooking bags or roaster bag mm. for vegetables and meat. remember to replace the metal ties provided with elastic band mm. or string. mm. cling film, plastic wrap is inva , invaluable to all microwave users. but do remember to puncture holes . it's , it says that. so i would imagine as long as you put a lid on it yeah. it's doing exactly the same. the same thing. do you do that when you do scrambled eggs then? do you put anything on it? no. no. why don't that work the same then? because it cooks at the top and then cooks inwards. oh. my , i better go down and get cling film i suppose. i wouldn't bother! won't bother. well we just gotta find something that's prickable then to use ain't we? plates in the yeah. that's wha that's what it says? yeah. i really wouldn't bother. mm. right. i wouldn't cover that anyway. so let the flavour out. i tell you when he's coming but then i'd have the cooker going up the swannee well, well no. just say i've popped down to see the . yeah alright. it's only just yeah. no point in . yeah, that's a . i'll say that he's gone. well speaking on telephone h hello love! it's wendy. is mum there? alright? yeah. why's he acting like sam ? about to say watch out he might shout without moving the receiver! and i said he didn't. how are you? yeah. well we was coming down, now the cooker's gone up the swannee! and he isn't erm, it lights up in the oven. i ain't got no bloody oven at the moment. it lights up but it erm you turn to the regulo love and it still stays the same level which is you know, sort of you know, little. so i've got the gas man coming tomorrow but i doubt very much he'll be able to mend it tomorrow but but we was, we're gonna try and get down. she's ending up with a getting on to job centres and all that, you know. but ain't got nothing. but er yeah, you ain't got nothing? no. yeah. yeah. yeah. yeah. well tha that's right ee er, i mean th there is no point in sort of getting a aggravated about it is there? none at all. so i mean she's been waiting on that erm place down junction road but they, you know, we've had nothing from . no. asked her if she's signed on at trevalle lesley's had a letter to say from them down the job place they ain't got nothing. er trevalle she's just said. have you heard of that one? tre , what is it? trevalle trevalle are you on that one? yeah, she's on it, yeah. job spot? yeah. you done the lot have you? like she has, yeah. yeah, well i say, it's one of those things, i mean, you get bad but er but there's bugger all you can do is there? you know? aha. mm. well, well er well it is, because i mean so many go for the sa da damn same job don't they? but what about yours then, any nothing? you have? aha. mm. does it? yeah. the other place. mm. really? ha. yeah see that's a problem because that's like greatley greatley and amport cos an an , anne was saying that wanted one in that lot which is a similar, but she couldn't have one. yes, it's a yeah. yes. it's all so petty! innit? you know? ha. yeah. have they? they, they wanna get shot of well they've have to change their policies i think! oh have they? aha. yeah. yeah, yeah. oh well that's not nice then is it? yeah. yeah. yeah. yeah. oh, yeah. no. no, it's around about the off innit? you know? yeah. still, never mind i i hopefully it's a chance, you know? i mean erm them solicitors sent a letter to him we had a copy come here but erm, he's gotta pay her fifty pound a week. we ain't heard nothing! nothing at all! so i dunno how long they're supposed to let it go on, you know? tell her he phoned you. mm. well she's on income support look. thirty nine sixty something a, a week. but erm i, you know, he he phoned again. i suppose bev has told you this bit. he phoned, and i answered the phone look and erm he changed the story, he said if she wants any money i'll let her have some. and i said, too late! i said you've got it writing and in the solicitor's letter, she said in there that erm he must get in, if he don't understand it or er don't agree or whatever he must get the solicitor but er ain't heard, ain't nothing a about it! not a thing! mm. totally, yeah! yeah. oh no,tha that's it, hundred percent! they get enough fees! yeah. yeah. half hour. so i mean well i suppose it's, times flitting away cos i don't suppose her solicitor will let it go on forever! they've taken out of him. yeah. and they've taken out of his pay. anyway, but that means going to court won't it, you see? mm. well that's right! yeah. well she she reckons, you know, on the army and that he can well afford that! and er i say, i dunno, he might have got a solicitor, it might be all going on, who knows? no. no, it's just a case of sitting. no. well, well that's right, i mean, i know she's gotta send it in, i mean it's nothing, but it's something. well nothing at all! yeah! we see jenny tuesdays, have you seen her? yeah! well you get so bloody bored don't you? you know? it's a good night actually. er, she goes down with a friend. oh. no. well thi this is why we dunnit quite seriously because i mean i'm bored to tears! this weather and all that and i it just drives me daft you know? th i it's a nothing sort of month innit, you know? no! no! in the winter you can't. no. so we well this week on tuesday we're erm going swim and spa and rosemary and anne and all them er maggie they're, they are all there so this is what we're gonna do try for this week and see what it's like, you know go through all the system there. but it is a night out. you know? that's right! yeah! yeah! cos i say, otherwise all you do is bloody housework and go to up the factory, you know, i mean, it's nothing! it it's bored ! how's the kids then? mm. good. oh well that's a that's a help isn't it, you know? oh really? oh, is it hi , was it his decision? well that's right! but i mean . mm! hell of a but er i mean last night , val said it's alright.. well those sandwiches must have been yeah, they were nice. they were nice! quite nice, yeah. oh, they were nice.. i do! i i think it's fair you know. mm. no messing about, i mean, let's be honest. oh yeah. and er and then gotta by himself. i love salad sandwiches but i hate making them! yeah. too much hassle usually ain't they? well they are! i mean, your mum on a saturday used to have a gigantic salad sandwich! everything went in it! and that fills you up. i'll have another plate. well that was that was more like a meal weren't it? well it's because you in the end. you put everything in it didn't you? i did! everything that was going i shoved in there! couldn't cut it! couldn't get no. and it all , all fell out anyway. we got yeah. yeah. well i say, i i'm really annoyed about those tops but mm. it don't matter i mean it's a change anyway but it's not today you can't get them innit? it's yesterday when you bought you it. yeah. yeah, well that's quite a point innit? mm. yes. well i do remember standing there saying oh well i can do those on top. mm. so that'll be alright for tomorrow. and we haven't got any further. mm! and we should of dropped that off!have them tomorrow. i mean them let's face it one out the three of us should of thought a bit more. they are now, they the week. i suppose you dunno when he's gonna mend this cooker. no. well normally it takes at least two days well do you want ? yes! well they used, and it's only that, i don't know o get a lorry up on a wednesday. and that,that we only have to wait till thursday yeah. somebody else will say well they can't can they? well somebody else to ay? don't worry about it! well i know, i don't worry, it's just annoying innit? mm. but somebody who broke down on a thursday using er use the tea caddy on that. yeah. like the pies that are cooked. as long as you know that your gonna do it then you heat it yeah. up in that where you are aren't they? as long yeah. your pies are cooked. we've proved that they're yeah. oh yeah! i mean, that is a way out isn't it? be truthful. well well let's face it, one of the girls i used to work with going up , she never used a ordinary oven. didn't she? nope! never! mm. well if you're, if you're able to do what you wanna do in other ways. cos they, like the microwave, it's just lots of things. i should think they use it you know, well lesley does the majority of the time. right. yeah, well lesley's a a little bit different. cos i mean that's something because they're at work they build up with mm oh yeah, i think that's absolutely right! if you don't know any different. that's up to you. different system. well no, not only that if it's the simplest way mm. for yourself, i suppose you carry on doing it wouldn't you? mm. i mean, a lot more mess and a lot more doings the other way. mm. well, the spuds are alright aren't they? mm! nothing wrong with them. that's all i can tell you so far. the other in fact of table. that ay? mm. oh, missed that one. well i i was, i was wondering, see on the market generally they're whites. yeah. and they all come up well. well i first well i'll try and see sam, well when do you need them? oh no, i won't , i won't need them yet but but you know it depends where they go along there doesn't it? well, well i say, i shall see sam in between even if it's friday night. mm. it depends, i mean mm. if they go along they might get better as you go they might get worse, who kno , who knows! but er oh isn't good! well but it hurt but it's gonna feel . they'll be a result somewhere. some of them, these are a bit hard in the middle you know. what? spuds. spuds. mm, well i should of said, i mean like they used to. that's right. i did a few of the last ones but . the thing is that when you erm if you cut them down so much you are gonna have total saute aren't you? did you pre-cook them? yeah. mm. yeah, i did. mm. mm. but i mean, it just means cutting them smaller actually. mm. don't you? oh i was sick of them down there. blame it on . don't worry about the swimming cos we've been down there and she said yeah, i can't stir myself. mm. lesley . oh! well jenny's asked her you see. mm. can't what? stir herself. oh! i thought you said spare herself i was gonna say what has she gotta do,? he fell over then! did he? i didn't look. she said she'd gone after that house but she's not in the blasted catchment area though! oh christ! you know, like that great big effort we said about. mm. but they can't sell them. that's right. but, so she might stand a chance. cos in the end i mean they've gotta sell them ain't they? they're growing up in the village. and they've gone up from outside haven't they? mm. they reckon , sometimes the village catchment is not what? well there could be no in the village in some instances. yeah. well as she said, it's only minutes down the road and they say don't come into it. mm. and where it's at? i dunno. well i'm not sure about them. we , well it's a whole parish away. not sure about what bev? potatoes. potatoes. i'm afraid, some of them are alright but some of them are not. the what mick,so sorry? well i say the er it's a fair result as far as catchment is concerned, it's one parish to the next. mm. yeah. that's what parishes are all about, that's all. they never bring in any in . they have to. they've rented out all the rented ones. mm. but er peter's been on the ten day holiday abroad. mhm. got away. oh well, course. . er well, unless they want to do a go for a piece of this i mean, as well anybody, if not better than anybody now. and you just think . one meal of it at the moment. yeah. i know. yep. well it's before innit? you what? mm. see you should do a fair amount of . oh yeah! he was doing that with business anyway. mm. he said er he got a letter from brampton row mm. no jobs! oh! well there ain't at the moment! i mean er, that's what they've gotta get used to. well, but whether he just yeah. i mean tha , if you got that one, you got that one but if you won't, you won't. yeah, that's right. but they've lost . i know! it's the situation she said and we'll stick with it. mm. i said that . mm. but i think you get to the stage where you don't expect to get one you know? it's a and do it. mm. they'll have two in one day! well that's wha , that's the other situation innit? is that other bloke still there? don't know. still not sure, i think so. i'm not sure. well he was nice, that day you were talking about me. chatting to the right one. no, no i think so. but al although that so les knows the other. i mean i was i joined a while ago remember. mm. yeah, i'm not keen on them spuds. no, some of the trouble . you know what it's all for. it's the , the little one. well i should of done them all. well it's not, i'm bloated anyway. aren't i mum? well, so you say! you were sat down. mm. now i'm on. i've come i see. on. ah! that's why you heard me about this morning! i see! well yeah , that's the one that got out. i mean i could of gone out not long before sh she came back though. yeah. did he? i was most most surprised, yeah. you did? mm. cos when erm oh crumbs! when i pulled the toilet, i thought oh shit ! so normally he gets up then. i know. i know, that's why i don't do it in the morning. yeah. mum? no. my nose has decided to run. well it's alright then, it ain't what i want personally. mm. well that's good then. ah ! well that's good! it's on and all! i used to fill up that's why i don't work. i'd rather fill up today. i've been going, i'm going to . mhm. when? erm, it's er it tightens your neck muscles. and it will . the . we're on weight six already daddy! ? twenty. oh! not bad going. no, but you gotta do that . oh it is a dreary old day innit? yep. oh! do you want anything here? aha ! yeah? where's that girl from? china or somewhere is she? you know there's one beautiful chinese or whatever! last what last night? night. yeah. she was dressed in one of the outfits, and i thought well that suits you down to the ground! cos i like watching their faces. mm. , you can see they're fed up. you can see yeah. don't they? they were dancing for you last night. well, you missed a certain amount facewise particularly. yep. from the other side. but don't get the seats right at the bottom next time. ooh no! i won't! no. i don't know what helen will do now actually. they didn't involve her in it did they? no. well, only across the other side, they sat down there. that'll if they didn't, they . no. no. they want the old no, i thought it was excellent! i really did! that was the nicest trip weren't it? mm. i say that chuck over's good you know! it was really good! but er , you know, i mean, i know it's only practice and you know how far you gotta be in front of the other whatever! well saying he dropped those too. mm. but you know he's practically running . are those those discs or whatever you mm! they were very effective! they were effective! they caught up in the air didn't they? mm. i say, it's all the practice, he suddenly worked it out mm. you know? oh yeah! you're gonna drop one of those. well it's all the practice cos i mean he was moving all the time! yeah. mm. well he was very good! well they all were. i mean that that couple of blokes mm. i tell you if i had a if i had a preference it was when everybody was on the ice. yeah. but i don't enjoy the ice skating that much to think they were good at their job, yes yeah. but it don't mean nothing to me the skating. i say, it's not that they weren't good. well no, but i mean i'm not a lover . well i love it when they do the acrobatic part of it! yeah. it's something going on innit? i mean, i like the costume, i mean i thought they well so did i! and when they were th the the film. yeah. yeah. the red buses and the mauve ones and all that i mean they oh, they never goes up. they're just doing a like a walk. spectacular! yeah. spectacular! mm. but that liquorice allsort one i er brilliant! brilliant! it was. mm. all put all their pickles on there? she did. i did. don't they look like ? . they look like burnt ! that was all ! that's what i did with a cup of tea this morning didn't i ? it was a ruddy great gulp! it's not on! yeah, you come running out of her bedroom didn't know what to do! so it's not as if we're having breathing and didn't know what to do!weren't it? i've seen one bloke with a giro this week. what ? yeah. twenty. well there's no today. it's not on all the time. no, it's alright. today is it? ye yeah it's er closing the . then you got the sno , blinking snooker every night so oh. well probably at six. i reckon the highlights of erm and this is what this is. highlights. is it? mm. that is a good top innit? mm. did you see that , which one was it? that blue one? blue one. yeah. yeah. well it doesn't slide on the ice weren't it? ooh! mm. mm. you could see in some of their eyes they were a little bit yeah, when they er didn't they muck up the ice? yeah. . it's a lot of work weren't it? yeah. well, i'm going to start this thing off. if i don't get on and do it i'm never gonna get it done. that, i like that! ay? yeah, i like that! i do. well that is really yo you feel good wearing that i would have thought. lot of work's gone onto them things. have they? dowdy! she just had a black skirt. well blimey! i don't why, should of when you were young. no, well i wouldn't . one of those. no, can't, too much children there. yeah , i know it has but er lisa's fits you. lisa's fits me now. well i say again, i thought they might go with the children. no i meant i know! it probably is erm well all women now i don't think. put a film on? mm mm. it just goes in like that. mm mm. yes! and we . hey? have a load of kids. real excited mother! yeah ! did you hear about the one on the seat upstairs? she did that ! cos i don't care! got more than me. we have one, it , let him know it must be how you sound. yeah, that'd be a good tester. mm. it's er, that's not me! that's not me! oh yeah! so that we would be pleased. well i dunno, i'm surprised nativity's started at school now. i go go round with the bloody out there today! at one time. i think some of them have gone now. yeah, i think you just got the gu , red one. the little red one. don't matter about that. there was another one in the yeah so drive. . why put it on by the ? yeah, well i don't want that, i just found didn't wanna kick it, i i put it up that end cos i thought anybody i just want sitting there that ain't got one, it's oh. it's handy. yeah, but i i kick it off, yeah. mm. well i used it just now that's why i knew there was something in there. what ? well that's probably before or just after a service. mm. well that's just right then. if it's ready. mm! well if he's anything like last week he won't be! well, then he might have to he makes a mess of that bed i ain't made of money you know! oh yeah. . well when i was up there. oh well, they find a it goes all over this . oh!jumps on, jumped all over the end of my bed last night, got the bed covers no, it wasn't th , last night, it was this morning. oh well! well i dunno, it was a good night out. it's my ay? is it, my tape in there? or have you changed it? i don't know what's in there. we haven't touched it. oh well if you ain't touched it, it's mine then. no we got nothing in it, unless this, oh it's three o'clock! well, take mine out then. don't run it back cos a i've got so far on it. oh! the belgian one. what we were gonna do is see what this bit like and you want erm can i have a your old boy's network tonight? oh yeah! oh well i shall have to watch from ten o'clock then. well there's something on the other side. no, no, no, no! no, well no, listen to me! don't bother i'm not bothered. cos i'll probably blooming watch it anyway! you probably will. i probably will mick, cos i don't half past nine. well see. i don't put the light out at ten do i? no, but i say, it's up to you. if you i want it want it saved then i told her off last week cos she was watching it! i watched half of it last week, as soon as you told me off i i put it off. because she was having it taped and watching it! so i said that's it! yeah i was, yeah. and it's half a blooming hour weren't it? mm. but does your thing starts at ten o'clock though? that's alright, i'll let her watch it tonight. ah yeah. no, you do what you want. i've got to get my jumper finished. oh! oh i think i'll have a bit. what's this then? this is force ten to navarone. navarone or something. oh well they've just blown it up then. oh well! navarone , i can't have have you seen it then? ah ah it's not the . no, but he is it ? yeah. yeah. oh well they've just blown the lot up! sorry? they've just blown the lot up! well it had to be three o'clock dunnit?it's the dreary neighbours weren't it? no,. i thought it was though. ah that's right! that's right, yeah! robert shaw. oh that's innit? oh! harrison ford. edward fox. yeah, well i, i i saw it in the paper. i mean, you never know erm well it could be quite a good story. well we've got the old errol flynn so i mean we have got yeah, that's not a war one! yes but and don't let us forget lovejoy tonight! no! but make sure we put it on the right side though! i was quite annoyed about that! have to remember it. that, yeah. blake. blake. at least reme remembered. remembered. though it was. wasn't! but i thought you would of reminded me. yeah,. ha! that'll be a . ooh, innit? want a kit-kat? no,. yeah, i wouldn't mind if you're going to get one. oh,. i thought knowing me well if i don't bring them in they'll sit in the cupboard yeah, i was going to get them down. and then we all say cor look, we haven't started them! here are then, you ready? yep! well you just in here. mm. oh there weren't much in i like them. i do! i like kit-kat very much! especially these little ones. the four ones are too much! yeah, it is too much. that's too oh thank you . are you starting again? well only if it's, i mean that's decent look innit? god, it's ! pardon? it's ? it's .. . oh yeah! that's all i'm doing isn't it? are you going up ? i don't know yet. see how i feel. what's that? oh i'm going back to . didn't want anyone up at the . and would you write my letters for him? up where? at the doctors. you ought to have it. this one will be alright. no she's not a . mm? that's the bloke! that's the bloke with her! , that's the bloke that was in upstairs downstairs! mm. isn't it? yeah, he was but i can't remember what he was lady hamilton's what's a name? colonel it was colonel and somebody mm. i can't remember. that was upstairs wasn't it? mm. or up , downstairs. well if somebody at work or in a office, bound to have a watch. i'll take it in one week but if not, i'll leave it there. mm. leave it there and . ay? let us know that you mm. . mm. mind, she could of got that first one out. shouldn't she? yeah. oh dear oh dear! oh!. yeah oh, i've done it now. i think the bloody adults should wouldn't they? well really. oh my god! . is it a what? . a what? . why? . what are they staying in aeroplane? no. , the last three missions th whatever they have they'll use oh! three more of them. that's right. ask you what a are they? what are you on? what's that? oh what, with no ? yeah. oh! oh! well it's individual innit? well that's a quite good one! . it's on hold though. no, on that. he knows what to do. so, he wanna be a hero i suppose doesn't he? in the end it's probably. is it? well . mm. oh well. i don't mind. oh that harrison ford he's a good actor i thinks. yeah. there's always plenty of action anyway. isn't there? yeah. do you wanna sweet? oh go on then! twist my arm! i'll have a one. do you want some chocolate? i think yeah,. your looked at me then. yeah. i don't know. it is! taking on the rest of them. hic! .shut up! bloody neighbour! bloody screeching kids! they never come in without their, screaming their damned heads off do they? ooh it smells never have a, yeah it flipping does! no. that feeling, i know little ! they've stopped. coming out. oh they probably don't know they're there do they? there's not many left out of the companies. no, no outcome. but outside have you been ? as i say, what's the point of having and the dogs? mm! look, the reason he jumps . well that was the end of that! don't know who that is! . is it? oh! i can't understand why it don't get on her nerves, but you i know. can't, if people gonna ignore it mm. then er it goes over the top of their head dunnit? well i mean what's the alternative? why? what's the alternative? you know, i mean she either gets on with it or gets rid of them don't she? well no it's simple! she can insulate the house. well that don't stop it from getting on her nerves does it? yeah, but it don't get on her nerves that's the whole point! i mean she's obviously able to throw it off. i mean, she's in there mick. mm. and when we hear it in here she's got it worse in there cos she's in yeah. there! but i mean that yesterday afternoon you'd have thought the bloody things were in here wouldn't yes. you? that was two of them but yeah. she said she didn't hear them. yesterday afternoon, well it started off on saturday and he ended up outside that house i'm outside ours there was three cars in the drive which you cannot get! right? so one went right across the pavement. terrible! yeah. now added to that by our wall there was this ruddy great lorry again it's a great bit thing with an open back right? we a long yeah. open back. so they park that up on the pavement outside our wall didn't come to our gate but, and then didn't it obstruct alan's because they had it on the pavement, so anybody going down the pavement out in the road. had to go out in the road! so i said to mick i'm sure that's illegal. well he don't know! anyway, so banging doors people galore! so come yesterday there was people going and all this business and it ended up with just her car and one red one then the red one goes out she goes with the woman they're outside there two of those bloody king charles! and they were in the front room going wild! then the afternoon, we'd had lunch anyway i'd got up out the chair, i was so bloody livid! i got up out the chair and er went out the front door and i said to her for god's sake it's sunday! what do you mean? i said well hell well you've got them going in there full pelt you don't go in there to stop it! and she said i can't hear them when i'm outside. and i said, everybody can hear when they're walking down the pavement! and er i said to her, you know, you must realise that when we're in here we can hear, no, you'd of thought they was in around our feet! well i can't hear them! she had the door open at the moment with these bloody dogs yapping and she looked at me and said i can't hear them! so, i said to her right, i said you wanna be in here live in here i said i'll invite you in! and she went in and shut the door! well wha , that's it! mick said to me, what did she say? what did she say? so i told him! and i said, you know, quite honestly sandra she does nothing to stop these dogs. she's deaf is she? well i wonder if she's got a hearing problem, she'd never says she has. but you think come on! i mean ! i mean she had the door, the front door open! at that i'm surprised she couldn't even hear! oh! i mean we have double glazing. the idea if you've got double glazing so have i! and yes, i can hear at my front door next door but one the window. if somebody goes up their path and she barks you can hear it! well, i said to mick, he's just got up now. oh, i said to him look i said she obviously a person that takes no notice , but she lives out in the country. because she's in there! when it goes on inside, she's in there! i'm su sure she can't hear it. she said i can't hear it when i'm out here. so i said, well that's it! i know he don't this sandra and i don't care a sod! bloody had a gutful of her! i mean, for a start i don't think she should have four dogs shout out in there all the hours that they are! and er i'm not saying they're ill treated cos they're probably not, but there's different ways of ill treating isn't there? i mean they don't look scruffy certainly! you get fed but that's about it! and they're in the warm you can't say they're no. they're not . well i haven't seen her. i saw her that one night look take one of those little ones going up the road but i've, i mean . all these people there this weekend and i've not seen one dog go out! and i mean you don't just stand at your window but at some time or other well she's probably sharing a room with the dogs ! well they must be! it's like living in a dog's kennel! it's only a three bedroomed bloody semi after all! well like living in a dog's yeah! kennel! yep! so i said to him, right i said we either go i mean i keep saying to him you've gotta do something about this! either this plaster board holes or whatever the house well the trouble is it costs such a lot of money yeah. you know, and we are, we have got that insulating lot. oh it's she's cantankerous! she's whatever you say don't wanna know! well i was bloody livid! i was really livid! who's the other side of her? well th the bloke but i mean he's not attached. but he's out. he's out i was gonna say the people on the other si i know no! they're not joined, so the other side never but he he always at work or somewhere! you know, i mean he's only a single bloke. oh right. hiya doreen! hello doreen! but i mean this week er this weekend er, mr died opposite erm, they've got a , a detached house there and erm somebody went oh i saw her in norwich. she was did you? i didn't know anything about it you see and all of a sudden there's two big black cars in the road the other day he's probably paid for two. i think anne no i don't know. you know? yeah. i i karen's sister couldn't tell you but er these cars turned up erm, there weren't no hearse and off they went and er course when i went up the garden to get some washing in claire came up and er anyway she said er about mr and i said well i assume it was him, i saw mrs and she starts on about this dog barking out in the garden again! but she won't do nothing about it! oh! one of them! i said i had a damn good go at her yesterday afternoon! did you? what did she say? she said she didn't hear it! she was out in the front seeing as one of her umpteen people, i mean they must pack them in! yeah that car was still there on friday parked, it's that brown one. doreen if you'd have come up there saturday yeah. they blocked the pavement, there was three cars in the drive which you cannot get! yeah. they blocked the pavement and there was this bloody great lorry up against the path so anybody coming down or up the road had to walk into the road or co , cross the road to the other side! but yesterday afternoon i mean, it was sunday afternoon after all! yeah! and she sa well if it's like that now in the winter you're not out much in the summer when you're out in the garden you won't be able cos we won't be able to sit out there and you know claire and george? but, i mean being in their seventies, well he's eighty now! is he? erm they spend lots of afternoons sat mm. out there. yeah. i was bloody livid! you know what to do? i just got up, got out of the chair and went. i was absolutely furious! and then she turned round and said well i don't hear it! and i said, no but you have the door open and these doors were going on, like they're seeing this wild woman off! well i thought i don't but . no, i say i won't leave it now, if i get much more of it then it's the environmental health! ah! but she's one of those cantankerous types! yeah, she must be! but er thanks. it don't bother her! but then i say, when you you've probably got very, very used to it! well that's it! you know,an and mick said to me she's must be quite lonely. you know, i mean they were so good when they came here but i mean they've been shut in for months now! months and months! so i mean, in the end even animals can get cheesed off! no i've gotta give my arm a rest. oh! oh! oh well, up a bit. hiya! no, i say she'll er she'll have to do something about it cos mick said well, he just said to me no he said well what can she do? erm she'll have to get rid of them. i said, she won't to let them bloody in! i mean that's what they say about julia that time weren't it? mm. well when i went to citizen's advice tha that lady said i don't think it's viable to have four dogs in a semi- detached anyway! that was a vet so have you got a hanger? i've got that one yeah. that broke. yeah. i haven't. i bet my water. why have you, i thought i saw one but then i thought this is staff i think. well who's is that one then? dunno, it was on the floor . what and that fell on the floor? well if it was on the floor and somebody wants it they'll have to have it won't they? it's not the one i . ooh! what's that? i didn't see the gone through the now. it's no wonder er that's the er dearest show or the most expensive show they've ever done costume-wise really. very fabulous! beautiful! even in those seats we had were . what was that actually at wembley? wembley, yeah. wembley. yeah. yeah. the seats were fantastic! that's the one i liked best, the man in the blue. yeah, that's the one bev liked liked best and the merry-go-round that's just in there cos of the fair mm. and there's the one that linked right round. i mean that was they dimmed the lights so that they're not all erm silvery grey at one stage. i mean, it was a job to say which one i was gonna say,i it's that one. yeah, that's the one that went over and then that was the fair. but erm but the whole the point about this show was three partners had stopped near the door the whole ice was covered with people who and er apart from the juggler an and you know bits yeah. like that, but but that isn't the woman. that isn't the woman. it was a blonde haired woman. oh! but obviously she was the star when they . but the actual main star is this one. he was . lovely when they ! you know, the production? mm. i'm sure they did do it well. all that time must of had a ball! i thought that was so this is , we had a bad night's sleep! i would have said while i was putting out my washing cos i did it last night on purpose for the gas man coming in. they're all asleep next door! yeah, they don't have to get up! no! no! anyway,and i have one for connie, that's the little girl over . oh right! yeah. was one, there's two now. and so she's on medicine. erm i know, like you do these and er i mean i, i've heard about alan and sue for a long time, i know they're having a lot of bother, you know with the decorating and all that. but she's got in there, well i hope alan and sue can settle now. apparently, a lot of the trouble they had was her father! he says him to go to work and look after the kid. well they got two kids now but the , it was then, you know? and er alan apparently wants to go to spain and alan said well i'm not bloody working there, as he said, i don't wanna earn money like that! and course, they had,with us you know at one time and now they've got that holiday again now, so i mean none of them would of been cheap when they did it. no. and er i didn't realise that you know, the father had . said about it. mm. i didn't bloody know, i worked it out. well he knows he can er, start off without any hassle. oh! oh! doreen? oh! oh! i haven't. beautiful it was! really was! well but we go . oh lovely! fifteen fifteen quid seats we had. two. oh! and we had a nice coach this time. oh! somebody called freeway which is a lot of kingston. oh yeah, kingston, yeah. it was kingston. and you didn't look out the no. and it was a beautiful warm comfortable. last time we went up,la last year was when erm no heating like. yeah. and it was an old coach. i mean, alright the heating didn't go wrong but it wasn't that, the coach itself was you know, really rattled! rattled all the time! yeah some are quite . they've got a, i think they've one ones. we had one good one when we went to bournemouth. they've got a double decker they use for the school run and that is absolutely on it's last legs by the look of it! yeah, we had a double decker one time when we went to bournemouth but i can't remember who it was. but that wasn't old. cos that was when helen and tommy 's erm wife left their clothes on there thinking it was staying there but it never, it came back. it was on another run, we got another coach come back so they had to go out to where the one it was to pick up their clothes! but i tell you what though that erm ice rink place it wasn't half full! they fill them up! masses and masses amounts of people! but that is, if you go up under your own steam i mean even dearer than the way we did it. mind you it's getting to the end of the run as well isn't it now? then it's london. yeah. mm. then it's london. er you know most of those it's sort of pre-christmas and round christmas. that's right. you know, like the pantos innit? yeah, we certainly found it was a . but er, it was very good! yeah, years ago my granddad remember, he used to take me to a pantomime something yeah. like that. well i suppose it's just we used to go with go into the brownies and i used to go windsor every year actually with my two. yeah. i didn't have to pick up that erm or nothing on there. i don't know if you saw brush strokes? you know the sequel to that? yeah. veronica? oh yeah! she used to be in the pantomimes at windsor. oh! yeah her mother and father used to be the , but they were sort of in the always in the scene erm, repertory and they were in charge of you know? that tree perhaps her manager or something. whoever was in she had her sister there, it was good! the other sister as well. that was skating all around, you know it turned. and the eyes went up and down and then they were going up and down. mm! really ! almost, you know and they said they were better , we were right looking at the stage over this time. last time we were over here and when it came down it ever such a big thing! and they just go down like yeah! yeah! ever such a big thing,or whatever you call it! yeah i it's really good! and, bev, all bev said liquorice allsort through all this one. yeah. she's got , but i liked those. . and of course, being so in the back seat they sort of when they, they she mm. landed they, they they don't yeah. as though they, as though they just going off ! well they slide don't they? i mean you can't see their face face or legs or anything can you? cos i mean the i like the difficult with that yeah. on. no. no, they come on. i didn't watch. i used to i used to do rollering a bit. though my kids both ice skating. they came down, they were altogether like that but at one point those red ones came down the ice altogether. you weren't allowed to take photographs. i took the camera, but i never used it. mm. but people were popping off again like last year. and he specifically said this bloke none well allowed no she didn't! don't take any notice if they don't want. it just said no photographs inside and yet . but it was, really was it's one of things things on television about it, you know, i mean yeah, what the video? you see them things going and you wonder ya, but yeah. if they're told not to or whether they're allowed to. but i suppose the only difference in this is the . they make the bloody things with roller skates like that. yeah. if it was me i'd go straight yeah. over. jason's obviously down when they've, you know well . a bit more. oh i really buy a range rover. that's much better. i mean th the around the world in eighty days was good. mm. but this was more somewhere it says about the am amounts that was spent on the costumes. must of been loads and they're opening, there's a new new stadium yes. yeah, in switzerland.. they're at least seventeen, not over twenty the first figure skater. yeah. erm, switzerland. mm. but somewhere it says about the amount it cost, but i mean if must be like that. must be bad! i mean, even one's like this. yeah. you know? but he was magnificent! tremendous that one! . but it was, it was very good! but it shows the difference between last year and this year. when we went up to th , we had coffee and mick had a bottle of beer erm, before we went in and and last year, well you wouldn't of go , dreamed of getting a seat in that restaurant area,yo you wouldn't! now, this year we and there was a spare table. yeah. mm. and , the people that were milling around us when you're trying to drink a cup of coffee stood up last year it was just the, you know, people are not was it the same time of the year? yes. you didn't go earlier last year? well i don't think so. i'd have to ask mick but i don't think so. i mean generally they you know, i, that's one of the things people cut back though isn't it? oh certainly! certainly, because erm i say it's you know, it's sort of an extra innit? something innit? yeah. you know? and er but you could see it. i mean it's a huge place doreen! erm, probably the ice hockey or whatever like that they but there was a hell of a lot of ! yes, they do, they do horse shows and that though mm. don't they? that yep! time of the year. yep! brian went to see prince, when prince oh yeah! he had the arena yeah. and michael jackson had the stadium. yeah. nice place though! it's a nice though. you know, for sitting and that. well we don't know where we are in that do we? no bit of paper. no. walk in where you like. yeah. that's . mm. whether he came in just because of bev or whether he'd started on he came through, he came i mean told you when it's , yeah he starts coming round . well that was a few . mm? that was a . no, as i say, he's coming anyway isn't he? i haven't got a clue to be honest, you mm. know . if i was you . mm? he could be on .. yeah, but those but then it would be the same , wouldn't they? yeah. two great .. ah! take me out . well yeah. well doreen said about going last week didn't you? do some of them there's quite a lot in there but i mean there's only that just that bit of bay isn't there? yeah. cos all the rest have gone. that's right. they still want that and then perhaps we're . well you just hope that his sister's keeps running along don't you? you mm. know? i mean er i suppose you got quite quite a few outlets now. well i, i got quite mm. yeah. well they got rid of all those it's the just cottages i saw round the back. were they? but i mean they had a lot as well at one time didn't they? and they're all gone. several notices come flying back in erm what's her name? they've had some more of them as far as that didn't they? mm. well you don't wanna keep buying them do you? they're sending, they're sending a couple of . are they? yeah cos they've had a lot in there but then have they? can't keep buying them can you? and i mean no. people have gone in and bought them, that's it!cos i mean but yeah. it's not you don't wanna really . ya. a what? they'll have no time . oh no time left? no! oh no! the you see these days because it's there one minute and then it's er not is it? yeah. mm. no, right. still there's stuff that you can do. oh yeah. .well i put my washing out and i thought to myself right,today. i put my out at four. he didn't have the time. i don't think he will for one minute! they, they didn't bother to come, come up on a wednesday we're all going out for a mm. well that'll mean thursday. but i thought well i'll get on with it, what, when they get up . i just chucked everything in that i had, did it,in the box and we were out before seven. mm. and i thought well that way it's done innit? get mine done . i know! yeah. graham likes merry hell . oh yeah! mm! yeah, i know that when i the only , the only thing is she has mm. well course, there's gonna be a certain amount of all in the same day isn't there? mm. you know, i mean david coming up there didn't he? i don't whether well was there weren't he? yeah. he seen him with her. no i mean, i don't think really that's very good at all! yeah! but erm i don't whether he wants to. i know mr used to go up there cos he was still at school then and he used to go up there cos he was doing nothing but whether he he wants her to get a job, well he . but so he was on about well er up at . yeah? but david was saying, oh you know,. mm. so she said well but you know who's doing it she said, and they won't change or anything. no! erm, george, glen and rosie, i mean i know what . yeah. oh i know! but, i thought it don't matter where you stay somebody's gonna say oh god, i wouldn't go there well well that's right! where was that person where we went erm we went somewhere david was it? was it, david? mm. well that thing . i could hear her! but erm dave was being . . well i dunno where it was . hello wendy! i rang up. how are you? so she came out last night cos she was away well i left after it no, morning. he'll be down tonight, tomorrow night and i'll guarantee it. oh god! well she were there for two hours just trying to . she was th there three! excuse me! and, she's serious! no, daryll, yeah i've still told her where she's gone. no, don't take them. just put them in there for me please? that's it. and a quarter of your please? take these. thank you very much. four forty eight please. oh that's smashing! as i say, that's all dad said. yeah. so, i don't know. they said work from eleven point three. i mean this is the last which is there. yeah. from what i understand. i dunno! ah! only i've get a if you want one. . i thought there's no point in leaving it in here. well no! it's past it isn't it? ah! why, why ain't that girl there then mum? what girl? erm . so that's for somebody else then? seven pound seven pound fifty for that cut. why what else you had? it was over seven pound. yeah, but you had a cut and blow dry. yeah. yeah. well then i did didn't i? i did. well i wonder if there's anywhere else you know? i mean i could definitely do with these sides done. well i might ask brenda. oh i'll try it. try it. you didn't! why's that then? mm? well i dunno, you aren't bothered about a job are you? i don't think so. well if if you don't want it say no bev! it's not that i don't wannit. what is it then? i mean it's not two pound! so leave it then. leave it. well no, because i've gotta give it yeah i know, but it's no good if you're gonna get yourself uptight about it! just gonna go and on though aren't you? well you can always say you can't do it, you've got divorced innit? i i, there's no point bev if it's gonna bother you! i'm telling you now! i thought you were yesterday. ay? i thought were a little bit uptight. well it's not that i'm uptight. what is it then? i think it's because i haven't done it for so long yeah. well,cos if it's any good,. i want it! i don't wanna be a failure! who knows! exactly! and the only way i'm gonna know is if i take it. mm. god it's not the right time of the bloody month! you got a couple of letters here. have i? yeah. where? oh! oh one's a . well i should make your mind up bev, here and now. you really must! if you prefer not i'll, i'll say no! i want it! i know you want it bev but it's no good getting yourself uptight! it's no good at all! no good at all! just waffle on and be done . it's to be expected really. yeah, but then fifty nine thirty two. what? well that's erm cheque erm . well that's what i was waiting for weren't it? and then i'll get my old fixed. well no, you must make your mind up love. real last. yay or nay i mean there's only a possibili , what is the thing you don't know how to do? well, the word processing. but that's not it,i what is it then? i mean, it seem to me it would be an ideal one if well it would! if, if, from what she says. it would! so you take the bull by the horns or you don't! yeah. or you don't. but if yo if yo let it get you down then you don't. it hasn't got me down. mhm. well that's what it is, apprehension's made that happen. yeah. certainly. and you don't want that . well, i say, he tend to go at eleven and three, so think about it. yeah, you're right. you see it's not really for me to do. i mean, from the sound of it she's answers the telephone, does a bit of typing and that girl in there though? mm. does a bit of typing. oh i want it! don't get me wrong. so why not? but the you gotta expect, there's bound to be a bit of apprehension. i understand that totally. but i think it's take the bull by the horns oh yeah, and i mean let's face it you might not like it! you might not you might get there and you might say oh i don't like this! but that can be the same anywhere couldn't it? yeah! if you come up my place. which i'm sure you wouldn't like would you? ha! okay i'm going out now. well i suppose if you want to work then the first one is the first ones always can be the worst one! ay? well, the first one's always gonna be the worst one! mm! certainly is! but i say, i'm sure your capable of taking the bull by the horns. oh god, yeah! i've done it before it's just i haven't done it for so long! oh well! i mean er that's why i never done the yesterday. i mean, it's not that she's probably gonna go after it but i, you know, who knows! i mean they know up there because of the, of theirs. but they'll probably rather annoying at the moment. innit? yeah. well i think it's if you want it. oh, i'll be alright now. i shall be alright now cos of val. yes, that's right. i mean, as i say, you might get there and you might hate it anyway. yeah, i might not even get it bu no. no, another he said was that bloke came in later. what was that man's name? clive clive? clive? i dunno, it was either clive or richard i think. i mean unless they get a temp from an agency they gonna want somebody aren't they? yeah. sounds to me as though they're just sell stuff, i i don't know! but it sounds to me as though it's taking something off the telephone, which is simple innit? yeah. and erm a bit of couple of letters typed. i mean, the re at the least you could go and have a look i suppose if is it somewhere ? he never said. he honestly never said. it seemed to me it were the type of place you could sit and do your knitting. yeah. if she's sat watching them she's pregnant but if she'd have sat watching neighbours and she weren't able to was she ? and he did say to me well he has spoken to me about it, he did say answering the telephone. he said that. mm. as i say, i've only met her the once. and she come up in the car for him once. but i mean the first step is always the hardest. i mean, if that don't only apply to you. no. but er if you want it an and it's then no harm in going and having a look! is there? like i say, the choice is yours hundred percent! you don't have to. i want it but well the butt of it then has gotta be go over. mm. i mean if, if she wanted you to go out there today, just if then the sensible is to pick up a taxi. yeah. well, then i know where it is. certainly! i mean i went, i'm i if it's the place where we said it is then, i mean it i know we went through thicket , yes i do! cos i saw their horses and which i think are moira's. but i mean you know what i'm like in a car i just sit there and then then your father turned in and there was all these, where we went to get the carpet, you know? and that is as much as i can sort of remember. but i really don't take much notice anyway, sat in a car. no. i don't. still as i say, no,th it's, it's a fair comment to say it's to be expected. but if you can overcome that you know, by saying ah what the hell! it's either this or nothing which, which it is and if you want it i mean lesley's not bothered about it cos he's giving her seven hundred quid a blooming month! well neither would you if yo , somebody give you seven hundred quid a month! neither would i! for god's sake! i wouldn't get up at six, put the washing out and then go up there! thinking . but there again, one week you might, one month you might get a one month he might give her that and bugger all the next month! well she says it's guilt money and that is possible. mm. but, i think you're quite right in what you say. quite right! no doubt about that. you never know with what she said anyway. unpredictable. but i mean, knowing her the the the sa , the money she's had she will erm certainly look after. mm. you know? i mean she's been living off what seventy three odd quid has she? yeah. so i mean there isn't anyway in the world that she's gonna bank seven hundred quid a month! no way at all! she'll er make the most of that because she won't possibly money for erm mhm. she'll want money for the deposit and and whatever she gets. has there been much noise today? no, but their dogs and that. got a lot done this morning then? well i did it on the way . why not? and stupid git there should of popped those in there! really stupid! could of done that easily couldn't i? yeah. there's plenty time weren't there? what did they think of the brochure then? the yeah! yeah, they did like it. but i say, you have to be there to appreciate it don't you? oh yeah! you know? sorry? i say, you might as well buy the other book. mm mm. we can go on sunday. oh, it's going all morning. been going all morning. was she in there? oh she was in there. she's very isn't she? oh, well it's either that or she's just ignorant! i can hear it now. wait till he's gone out now. i think they've all gone out. do you? well the red car innit? yeah but i mean i only her. i'll try her again and this time let it all come out. impress on them that you don't wanna come out with it short. can you? yeah. lorna or somebody. well we know, we know lorna. but it seems to me that gwendoline and margarite that are scissor happy. don't go in there . no i mean if the , one of the i think the situation i shall alright. will change totally and i yeah. mean i don't know what this is. it's just going i back after five well years. yeah, not so, so confident but if you don't make the attempt then i shall be like this every time something crops up. and you've done this all before under worse circumstances. yes. oh well , i really do! but i think sometimes i mean you've either got to do what you do coming back from germany i think you have to take the bull by the horns don't you? oh yeah! and i tell you, i don't know what this is. well i don't. or if it's gonna occur but it seems to me it would, or sounds like it would be a simple let in to the yeah. to the situation. mm.. erm that's only what i heard, that's all! i don't think it's a massive place that you know, i i just think it's like a warehouse thing. a . yeah. a might be the word. i don't know! but it was no different from me starting work up here that time after so long after so long, which it was a long time. course it isn't! it ju it's just the same. but in the end i had to do it didn't i? well you have to do it. if the circumstances are such you have to do it. and er i say, that well purely taking the bull by the horns innit? really? i know. it's for your own benefit because yeah. whatever it pays if it's, if it's better will pay more than obviously what you're gonna get from either or. then go in or well i shall still get his. yeah, i know you still get his. but i won't well you ca i won't get the income. mm mm mm. that's right. but nevertheless you know, if you could get it and you could manage it it will relieve the bloody boredom wouldn't it? ya. cos it is boring! mm. course it's boring! boring for me! because what is it pardon me. and that's where it should be nice made a change didn't they? yeah. you know? that's where it made a difference but i was sticking in all the blinking week i'll save that till he gets home but apart from that's rubbish innit? well apart the radio but i expect they're gonna a radio of sorts you know? but er no i say, the choice is yours. certainly! well that, the first step's some when will have to be taken well the longer i leave it the worse it'll get. certainly will! but then, i mean a actually i mean as i said, lesley ain't that bothered because of what he's giving her mm. but at the same time she's got all lethargic cos yeah. cos she won't even go out with jenny, look! i mean, i say, still again, i don't know whether she swims or she doesn't but nevertheless it's an invitation out innit? well she can go to the spa bit. well any of it! well even if you went and watched. yeah! there was at least you're out. there was people watching over the balcony last week. i saw them! yeah. but i say i believe in in one respect alright, she's got the car she can whip in and out but i do believe in another respect she's got to the point where she can't be bothered! no. and it's so easy to sit every day innit? too! anyway, so might not get the opportunity anyway, so it might not arise. well the point is, for a thing like that if somebody else knows somebody yeah. and they're willing to take you on for x you know erm it just, a lot of it is word of mouth. word of mouth these days. it is! don't mean there's a what's a name in there, a waistcoat. what a mohair i think. oh. but i dunno. that's your father. mm, quite nice innit? quite a different feel today. mind, i get bored to tears with doing this every damn day! bored out my skull! right well if i ordered another, i order from the thing. right. if i ordered another four don't do it for friday cos you'll be out. oh yeah. oh well stay away from friday then. m what i can't understand is, it happens all the time my telephone next door yeah and somebody must try and get in touch with her in the evening if she's not in. they must realize she does work but i mean we've had this for blooming weeks now ain't we? er nine weeks it's either the phone or the dogs or the child mm when you can hear the telephone like that in here, there's no wonder you can hear the rest of them no cos that telephone was in the hall it surprises me mm leave it, leave it ringing so long what on the other end? yeah mm, that was stupid yesterday though mark putting that on mm god dear me, who ever even thought of it look stopped now stopped yeah, dependent on, i mean that's twice since i've been home innit? it rang about three times this morning before you got here obvious they're away then innit? i don't know i mean sometimes it goes and i think she's in there don't you? yeah i wonder if all the dogs are in there? probably i thought, when i went and opened the windows i saw the other one but i didn't see the they wouldn't have room in one car for four dogs would they? i don't think they take the dogs out in the car for a run, you know, like a lot of people do no i don't think she puts them in the car it's not the sort of car that you do that with, not with four anyway, you'd imagine them having an estate car mm wouldn't you? yeah, something where you can put the bar up at the back mm and erm val has got one ain't she, for just yeah is it a telephone? it's gotta be yeah a telephone, what the hell's going on? oh i don't know i reckon it's been brought into the front room because erm, if she shut that door for them, cos she shuts the animal in a, a room here there and bloody everywhere, it's stopped again now ain't it? she might of answered it, she might be in there. oh that's twice, a hell of a lot of time but er but they said wet and windy, but that wasn't there was it? i think that was more up north. oh, up north, right. shall i just pop that back out? yeah okay. is it open? yeah. put anything. put water in there. you gotta have oh yeah. liquid haven't you? oh! no, i mean don't be like . i say over there and on foot. ain't it? you know. yep. at least out the way. cor! so that can go in when we get back. oh sorry! but i mean if we do go out i, she's out whether i go in town or somewhere. yeah. and then you got something simpler for cooking tonight, don't you? i don't wanna mess about it. don't have to mess about when we get in. it's too much hassle innit? oh yeah. these plates must be your father's ain't they? i would think so. cos we didn't have any done did we? no, that film last night wasn't it? oh you've got erm oh i got , so that's one of your father's innit? yeah. oh i'll put him in his side. there's a . oh, if we lose it it's only a . i put on se , when i do the leighs i did the door on the end of it look. yeah. i don't bother to change. and then next week i must order some more coal for but erm, i've gotta go outside here so no good doing it for this week is it? not really. well i mean, see you get messed about can't you? oh very easily. i mean he er he used to as regular as clock work but i say, and i have had those times when he comes four o'clock- ish even in the afternoon. well then well that should be a the whole day's gone now. don't let me forget them slides. that'll cook an hour. why? when you put the an hour? yeah. when you get back yeah. three quarters of an hour, to an hour that is done. and that right. is also including everything that's in there. yeah, yeah. right. so as long as your carrots are yeah. onions are so we need to be home by half past four then? well no, as long as you're onions are soft mm. so which they do soften up yeah. that's all that is. right. cos like, it's only liquid. yeah. have we go , got windows open upstairs or not? yes.. well i say, you just have to do your best, so doing but if there's any left over it'll be, always be tomorrow look. won't it? yeah. vacuum cleaner on that's that erm about that tuck. put that wor erm torch back in the car. and er that'll be out the way won't it? and i think i'll have to now push on about this mm. these . cos it does the idea , that's it. well it, what sauce do you want ? well we'll have, that one will do. oh hang on. cos that will give you a lot. as far as i know but no. well i do. do with some more strength, so you he don't like at all does he? tomorrow. without a doubt. i don't think exactly what he wants cos he came back and have some more of that other thing didn't he? yeah. you know if they're there, they'll have it. we can have mash with it can't we? have what you like couldn't you? not a problem is it? mash is better i think. it is for you innit? you prefer that don't you? well you don't have boileds do you? so not very often, no. don't really like them. don't leave much does it? no. how's your throat today? alright today. well it's too much to know. probably. don't it? in her hair. by with the other day it looked clean. i come up and meet you. that's right. yeah. come over dunnit? have a a bit of fresh air, it's a bit of fresh innit? well, yes. well especially on a day like this, i mean you ca go out on a day like today. the water in all this. is that enough? it's alright. ah! i should think so. there'll be plenty of the other and a there's gravy anyway isn't there? which is sometimes what we have innit? well there's always other things . cos in one respect i'd rather do what i think is enough but er than too much and then feel like a bloated little oh no, that's right. it is though innit? i mean there's more if you want it, you know? but oh yeah! . well i said , cos i said to her yesterday, it's gotta be done hasn't it? you gotta start now. waiting and waiting and then it's christmas again innit? why, are they gonna have a ? yeah. i mean why not? ay? there's one way of doing it! well of course there is. but i mean if i can get her to start somehow and i think it's gotta be this one. but erm if you get one going good yeah. it's or . well shove it straight in there. why? don't want it left in here do we? that's why i ain't put it out yet, but we'll er shove in everything that we can. is the sponge supposed to be out here? well i put it on the stuff and it's blown, i'll keep it because that's what i've just used. one thing or the other. no doubt about that. right we don't want any of this at this moment do we? no. we can get that out the way. hopefully! oh, so it's only a bit of corn. yeah. and of course, then all good. so i rang up that si , that lot got better. did it? yeah. i'll go up them now then. you don't want here. so here's your bit of . i'll have to go look for that book then won't i? that, mick's yeah. waking up. and the . ooh! that was funny weren't it? i'd already got it. i said i've had it at work this morning. and doreen said, oh we ain't got no books! so we'll now have a look. mm. vacuum cleaner on but i don't know why it is, i think that, they were gonna bring it out then. ay? i said she'll know what it is, but yeah. it sounds like . do you want me to ? no, but don't forget later on . pop down later. later, so well i said i wanna i wanna wash this floor. yeah. well cos first of all i thought well you know, i don't wanna not about okay. switching off vacuum cleaner behind the cooker innit? ah? look at that! yeah. behind the cooker somewhere. oh mine always leaks. leak somewhere don't they? yeah. right,. she thought of anybody good i suppose you'd have a you'd have a job wouldn't you? aye. can't find anyone . that's what? i'm safe. what do you mean i'm safe? in case of a fire. yeah. well that's why you, i bought some ones one lu one in the bathroom and one in the landing look and one in the front bedroom. up there. yeah. a , of course, you don't remember that. and they're normally in some,e ,windows that you have them checks for them isn't there? not, flats you don't have. right well you're supposed to have fire escapes with flats. i always thought anyway. supposed to. well i thought so. yeah. right. right. oops! must use those carrots up sunday though won't we? yeah. oh!,not to use that thing up. what thing? oh yeah, that's better, yes! well that's what it's blooming well got for innit? use it. these storers come apart you know. i know. and i don't think we'll touch those again. well those potatoes didn't go bad. no. pay for them. bought them in . yeah,. they're not working, they're not working are they? oh i won't bother to move that ain't going to post out. what? i said i won't bother to move that washing. right. want anything else to eat. no, thanks. . oh you wanna to have a look at it anyway. that's right. when i move that i'll . yeah. jake's going to that place tomorrow. yeah. that woman , we went there haven't we? mhm. oh yeah. and er no point in faking it. we're having a party aren't we? well there's a there's balloon balloons. balloons. balloons up at the door anyway. but he's got a organ now. well i think it's an organ don't we? what the yeah. it was his fault. christmas is for family. but er he must have . i mean she was only seeing the last one off when i came home from work! did edith give you anything? no, edith didn't, thanks! i, i looking for him cos they er, i mean he is a old farmer. got a day off is it? day off! mm. oh well i hope she does or we're both gonna bank on it weren't it? i know. mm. it's only because it's no good. this ain't no . well i think he will just before i take it off and put it, and then what? i got some here haven't we? yeah. done one side and not the other! i think you mean , i mean you just want these. no, cos they'll wanna, a square one will look alright won't it? oh, you wanna first bit of light to go along that yeah , that's right, yeah i know but i mean it run yeah, but i mean you've gotta look at it. yeah that's alright isn't it? mm. or is it , cos that's what you want. all depends dunnit? ye ye yeah. ahh yo you like that? ah, nice innit? innit? yeah! well that's blooming worse family than that innit? what? i'm a , no. oh. ah? i suppose you have to. look at that! they need some boys who haven't got a car. no, well, there you go! well that's what i say, if people see it mm. i mean it might make them er think, ooh i'd like that myself! mm. the trucks gone now. i burnt . ay? i burnt the . oh are you? what? i burnt the . no, that one won't go in, it's rubbish! burnt that lot see, and i done some more. and er so and so i i never said a word to him. edith said, have you heard anything? and so i mean i said it quite and i said no, well they haven't come and ask me. and er usually, never said a word he's like a friend and erm, this woman who i said to her, mind he don't do anything about this i suppose . so, perhaps it was her or and er tend to like her but but i think he, what he says he means . i mean because she's been on the oh yes. and she's er . and that's poor! and i know something too but she can't. oh no doubt. i can't that girl! i tell you i . well, certainly. but i thought for a girl that's but erm . well we'll have to get the carpet. yeah. well that what was that price for bev?, ah! how much was that then? yeah, well hopefully well we was gonna we was gonna look in the erm advertiser and er big rugs. i got that advert today. but er to , she never bought her , she's never made . so she said well i'll go out then and she's lives in a massive great she'll say to come back, so and stuck there, well poor old margaret . no,. they're sleeping tomorrow night. no. , myself sometimes. oh, well innit? what? getting . yep. f i er er er well it's only some of this wallpaper tomorrow night. yeah. but er anyway i don't know what this is like , you go ahead love. mm. radio . you never know what to say about it. oh i'm cleaning. if you just pop that down over here. yeah, i see it. it's a bank holiday that's why oh. , the cars dunnit? oh yeah, i and slide shut you see not used to it. just the same? no, well we're just trying to find . i am . yeah, and that's a lot more out of it . have i got it then? well th that's the the proper but er got to move the , move the , you oh! see these . nothing wrong with it then? no problem at all is it? well i don't know . done it! finished? yes! ooh! yeah, i'd like to say . oh come . yeah. dad had a chance to look. you done, oh yeah you done all the washing up haven't you? yeah. that's why there's . oh, perhaps i'll try it. and liked it. lesley says my . what? so does dad. don't she mum? what? it'd be nice if he paid your bus fares for you. oh yes. oh dear ! do you want any bread? yes. i don't know what it is. yours is the red one love? mine's the red one. do you all want bread? i don't. and mine. don't . well, that's . erm oh i don't know if i'll buy it. have a look. no i won't! will. i won't! yeah.. yes. well that's alright then. you know what, you know what granddads who else will have one ? . well that's really what i got him so no. i got a price anyway. well . yeah, sell it to the bike shop. yeah. and i expect it might be there though now. ah, well that's right. cos she's not fussy. no. but er i ac , i hope she makes them like this. outside. yeah! . oh yeah! fold it in half and give half of it here. just fold it oh right. in my hand. yeah.? ay? . mm. oh. oh, i got some more brandy love and that was it. yeah erm don't bring that er oh i know but look . you're gonna bring that one are you? yeah. . he's gotta do yeah. well that's how my bringing the boys. yeah. erm we'll have been then. what tonight? you can't come with me now! how much of that is our ? this is it, they don't dri , coming down town tomorrow. well, we can do that saturday because they take a long time to get across. who else is going?as well aren't they? yeah, they are. well, we'll see, i mean don't come out as much you thought it would did it? no! we'll have a look perhaps, would er i mean . gotta use the old packet of mince innit? yeah. have you packed that? not yet. not like, she'll not that. not much we felt. is it? got a large packet of mince though. that's right. innit? he'll think you he's done the whole lot, packet. that's not bad. that's what i say. this is how i've bought mince. mm. damn give her a lot! i did twenty six thousand i'll have you know! mm? yeah, and i'm . oh. not a bad taste, but not got much content have they? no. i mean it's not an perhaps. they're a boring type! yeah, well as i say there's nothing to is there? two hundred and seventeen poll tax with a bit more to go on it. oh! sounds like, what is the bags or what? and what goes onto it and then he ye yeah , a bloody great bomb! bit of a game weren't it? mm. i don't suppose they'll go up twenty eight p have you? you can take from here? to near twenty six. but to go up that bit bit further than the other . but i can't see any of them justifying that. well they're fair stages, i mean where does thirty four go from the top? i don't know. that'll go right round the top. well what did she say? glen her, glen they say, isn't it? something like that. okay. is it, no? mm. probably that. that's right. well you know substantial rise isn't it? i know. well you do that every day. i know. well if you go by by bus every morning that's why a bus in the night, in the yeah. yeah. the eleven o'clock bus. unless they're gonna walk in the pouring rain, no whatever! i don't . do you want some i'm not a cake now, just here? i don't want no cake. good! well, look i've got i won't buy it. no! ooh no! ah ! then if we we're going out and then we well anyway, what's the point of in the cupboard? well that pretty tasteless. what do you want? there you are, if your father bought that clock back. didn't. mm. after all the debating and mm. we were like that weren't we? mm? we were like that. . if you wanna refuse it. like that. well, are we gonna put bellise on? we don't want any more though do we? no. no. when i you alright? , yeah. all the sweets spoiling me!even done the washing up now innit? ay? yeah. calling you a bugger, i'm washing up! well i know, i only do they did tonight. gotta take them glasses haven't you? yeah. . which one do you want mick? do you want the swiss brown or the rest of the walnut? it depends on what's happening. you know, if the wa i'll have that but but i had the last bit before that. fine. alright then i'll have the walnut. right. i cut it in half last time but i've i could get us there you know? after the weekend i could get us there. oh. , half past nine you know. oh we gotta find bellise yeah? now which be one of yours won't it bev? straight to my lover's heart it's on the front of yours love. see, nearly forgot it! i did. yours. citroen. it looks like . it's nine o'clock. what? . what? is that the one you're going over now? in there wouldn't you? yeah, i did, that's right. that's , that's what? the problem. what? will you stop playing with that! well i took them both. and put them your side since we found that i did them for you. and i don't believe at all. i only had two left. yeah, that's right. well i think that film might be tonight. which one? the coloured one. oh yeah. i don't know. i don't know. oh! blimey that were quick! i know. they done that one, and you're starting now. yeah. yeah. can't wait to go can you? what? starting that film off, it's only that one. where is the greens? well i could only say in the cupboard? right. what i say only have to look. right. mm. as soon as i last one. pick them up i knew that the where's the water? here. oh. erm at least you know i'm terribly . mm. so . that's what i to mm. do. mm. i mean, and that one in joan's fit innit? mm. that's pippa's things. pip will give them up . mm. well he's had a here ain't he, tonight? hey? he's here tonight, i forgot. i gotta do all those bits and pieces tonight haven't i? you oughta be on . unless you want to see him and i'll ? papa!it's six foot this way look. there are and across. so? well! all the same. that's right. at work. i'll have to go tomorrow if that happens. what? full swing. why? cos i'll have to i'm afraid. won't you? oh you no go , ah i see you do! mm, fluffed it up a bit here haven't you? mm. ah, what are we now, march? right, let's go. twenty seven. well i'm foxed! i don't know what that means, i'll go up and get my calendar. put it in by eleven. mm. i'd probably have to go there on the eighth. . twenty eight. twenty seventh, do you make it? twenty seventh this time. yeah. yeah. yeah. well twenty eighth tomorrow. oh. don't know, is it? yeah, it says every fourth friday though weren't it? i have. i think. friday night i'm going out with trisha. don't get s coming with us now do we? no. okay then. have you got a please? .. no, you wanna sit here? no. are you sure? yes i'm alright. not bleeding worried, that's right!. well don't say it, i might have cut one off. that's a problem innit? pencil. a what? a pencil or a pen? a pencil please. dawn's wedding should be right. yeah shouldn't it? i don't know. together, i don't know. a sign . oh yeah! yeah. that's right. did they get on alright? yeah, i do . he's older than her. not that one either. this is the received one. that's the other one isn't it? five sixty five. that is where's the other one? there's a longer one. yeah. i know. well i've got that to do. well i just leave that one in here yeah. do we? right. whe where is this? this i this is bellise is it? yeah. oh pa! seen who ? what? . oh i'll that again. oh wait a minute. i wouldn't know. didn't know that. all i've got to do when i give the tape back is mum! mm? i don't remember paper. no it hasn't been. what the midweek? i don't think so. i had a look for jobs. where's that ? have a look at last midweek, i threw it on the . what is this bloody let's have a look. you want that? oh, it's what we're looking for isn't it? have you seen the midweek this week? oh, i hope i've . i don't have to keep them, that's all, i gotta know if you've got the receipt. i've got the receipt. that's alright then. i won't, besides the fact . ain't you got well no, it's in, no it won't be. well i could all of those letters couldn't i? i dunno. why not! would you like there for tomorrow? what? ? all what? i don't know. i might have put it in the the bin. ay? i said i haven't put it in the bin. must have a few shows around you know. well, i dunno it'll be. oh christ! i think gill will be quite pleased with that clock now. mm. don't you? mm. cos ooh, we have to . what? innit? the clock we bought them for christmas. what we have to leave it? no, this one. i don't know oh. what it is. in fact, i gotta . but he must be an agent sometimes? might be what? he must be an agent. what, like the sometimes. i'll have a look under there, yeah. you have that and i'll get that one . oh, and she did get it. i think he's an agent for that. i'll ask pete. have a look on it. they burn them first when you've finished. that's free. bob . mm. i think that bob is an agent. oh i've never heard such a load of bloody rubbish in my life! stop winging mother! isn't she winging? yeah, i think it is. right, i haven't got any paper have i? well i only have to sell well i don't remember what er did at the paper. i can't remember seeing it this week but i pick it up don't i? normally. ooh ! oh that was a long walk weren't it? lovely day though!! and it was quite warm wasn't it? mm. i don't know whether i gotta take what they . we haven't got any bus timetables have we? no. but you can pick one up easy enough can't we? mm. well i'll go and have a look for us at the bus stop innit? right, that's all i got a tape, eight o'clock innit? eight thirty. start at half past nine and start again at nine thirty. don't you want this then? what? what do you say? i said, didn't you want this? oh father! ay? no, i don't want this. but there's nothing else. right, you better get straight with our money. where did you have, those scissors? where they over there? yeah. what are you tutting about now? no, it's the television money! getting on well without . mm? but we could do some , they like that. ay? dunno if it's possible. surely aren't that bad. i would have thought they'd say. your grandfather! here's here! here's here! here's here! put it on number four please. well it,a swift one weren't it? yeah,. what have i done with ? he wants to pick them up. oh. yeah. ha! just bought the car . ain't you? righto ! see you dad! bye! god that though innit? i dunno! er, i quite like this. so did i. she messes about! that's the the problem with that fi film weren't it? i dunno what it is! i never heard it! yes, i think so. is it? yeah. i think so. he dies doesn't he? he's dead! dead, is he? well it's supposed to be christ. oh, i dunno. what, she's ma ma married to him is she? and then you have a de , well a devil woman cos, cos german's won't play it. ah oh! yeah,wo wonder why it was have they? yeah. cos she's cleaning him off. oh! oh! and they won't play it all in germany? so the women said, they were on this morning's programme. oh! they think she's the an second one of these the anti-christ. oh! they won't play it. she's got quite a haunting voice. it's nice. got a high tone. yeah. this is the bit you don't like? no. were you saying? no. i like the . oh. and she actually goes off the it's on e every hour at least is it? at least once an hour. i would have said that.. don't like those do you? no. . yeah. that's great dad! well no it's well no it's not. no, it's only eight five. only eighty i see. five that's all. is there a romance tonight? sorry? sam's problem.. i dunno what you're on about! . what this? no. it's at the cinema. what's that? yes. what's happening now then? i dunno what they're doing? it's the paving stone or something. ooh! and it's one of these . i see what you're on about. i didn't know what you were on about! i want them to stop there. another one of those of . oh! do you want that time out? na na na na, na na na mm na, na na na . what's that? not have a car as oh. well.. mm. mm, mm mm . yeah. stay with is this the one with the mortgage? me . yeah. have i opened this already? well it's one of the, the insurances. yeah. has it got the bonus? yeah. well that was this year, won't need to keep that. oh we got some this year, we never got none last year no. did we? no. yeah, we didn't get any last year, they no. didn't, couldn't give any out wasn't it? yeah. something like that. no money. yeah that's one of those that i pay tomorrow. mm. ah. . mm, mm mm . i can have er yeah that one. oh i saw that but it . i wonder what ? er erm well it looks like you gotta pay it out it you know and take that from there. that was all. all the debt a vous oh ! well i don't have er, i i've in there innit? on that tape? mm. and get er eight o'clock it'll be compo weren't it? mm. and yeah. er, the new comedy on one starting tonight. er where is it on that but we need something is it tonight we look at compo yeah. and we . what? we can't those can we? no we're going to tape, erm . we're going to need tomorrow to tape . oh, cos it's normally up in . see what i mean? no, i don't. well let's try it again. oh! normally it's the brittas empire though isn't it? mm. yeah. but it's not on tonight, it's the us girls yeah, so? what? we tape those? you can't do them . why not? it's on a , after compo yeah, and we normally haven't got anything to watch when compo is on. ah! got you! we normally watch . ah ha ha ha ha ha! because they break. got you! as i say brittas, is normally on mm. just there . got me now? oh i got you now. i'd sooner have compo anyway. can't have compo why's that ? yeah, we have compo next. normally tape compo yeah tapes it. but you oh! don't have to watch it tonight! that's what i said to you. do we want it tonight? no. we shall save it then! yeah. where's this? dunno! i'm st , work out what we were doing then! the ! where? i both said a time. dunno about holiday, i said cor blimey ! is the cornwa go cornwall good? i said i i'm going on a cruise,the go that men started laughing i said yeah i am one day. i said even it's not till the last . said alright?away from here! well! they one for aren't they? yep. vancouver innit? well it don't bother me, what an experience! innit dear? i'd go back to the caribbean if i . caribbean in the er india's indies. well that's west indies. i know. and then bob said jamaica i said, yeah that'll do! well one of those went to jamaica! mm. everything. mm. stayed on island. yeah, i remember used to stay on an island. mm! does now. do you know it's time for ? it's not! oh it's not! have you finished it mum? nope. oh dear! four rows . yeah, and then six. yeah. and then that's it? it's long enough innit?. watch, ooh! i got four . can i share with you love? yeah! yeah. mm mm . no good falling! i won't be you just don't a year. no, got . for a year, mm! anyway, well let's hope this . probably get one back to claire. mm. i like it very much! oh i they all owe me now! even connie owes me! after all, i got that by now though. yeah. they'll probably write back thank you! we love it! we've all got colds and can't afford any more medicine! so, i'm fed up i want to go to malita and then we get, they'll call in and say you haven't come up there for a week! ha! i tell you i don't, didn't realise that er paul and charlene have said er they can move in by june the second all you've gotta do is dump everything in there then bugger off to malaya for the summer and sort out when he gets back! sort it but out in the winter? no, she's a bit of a she says she's broke, he said run enough for her for all the yeah. . what is it four years? and i said, and i said it's every spare time he gets something like that. so it's more than that then. he says don't he say far yeah. too far back. but erm yeah. they're going she said he's getting really irritable now! but she says i've had enough of this now and it there don't help see it's it's lovely to get it done and like that but yeah. not to that that extent that you put in every minute! it's lovely if you can stay in your flat as long as you needed to . it's lovely if you had enough money to do it all when you wanted to do it. yeah. it's a marvellous opportunity anyway! no but he won't have a mortgage. he doesn't have a mortgage. he owes he owes the family so he'll be paying back. mm. but he'll never have a mortgage. he won't ha , he won't have no no government sce , you know, no . but he he owes the bank, borrows from the bank like. mm. but er that'll have to be paid back but i mean tha that's nothing is it? i mean, he's got a bank loan rather than twe twenty five year on your property around your neck! no, i mean, it would have been fantastic if they'd had the cash to just get on wouldn't it? mm. mm. mind you, knowing the i think it's just a, a might not have been the managing director no. . oh! well . i mean anybody getting into and deeper than him i'd be surprised! mm. right? yep! i mean, they're always friendly aren't they? i bet they would! can't get any worse! . well they got to close up. yeah. . what this one? aha. what is she going then as well? mm.. oh! did you hear about that woman? we both know about that. that whisky gone and all that yeah. you know it? oh! ay? whe when the doctor comes he's there. about sixty for him in he? something like that. the doctor only drinks whisky! so he would he had that week off didn't he? something or other, yeah. through this window pane . yeah remember, yeah he did. that was before the election. yeah! got to tell her about that haven't they mick? yeah, they insured it pretty well. , probably gone into it now but not very happy! won't be very happy, no! it's terrible innit? mm. well it's his fault , his fault he looked through it! he might find a pain when he's old. ay? oh god! i might find . well i'm sure he'll be paying for that. i am! mm, well i'm not! but i i, i mean it just well i am mick because perhaps it's on card! they pull them all out mick! ninety, hundred years old. well they pull them out! ain't no doubt about it! and when is this one? they haven't declared it yet have they? yeah. put put that one in at the moment cos it sort of. well then when was the last part of ? no erm recently? one night in the week wasn't it? well i can't, can't remember. i shall put properly on this one. oh! oh yeah! well if er you think you're gonna be sure, ah? yeah! well, don't need to go up there then. want me to go up there? well i'll have to un , i'll have to unpick oh of course, you got all that haven't you? mm. oh alright. here's some. well i bought nine hundreds . i think so, yeah. i know you used a well i can get up early tomorrow then. and go out that's what i say. bloody morning i was up at quarter to nine! no. yeah, but i mean i can you tell you for nine, half past something like that. oh i don't wanna be up too late! no but i mean, yeah. in case you come in at twenty past eleven. mm. well i'm back by quarter to. wake up normal don't you? mm. how much have they got in normal cars? if you down there you'll be home won't it? i gotta go straight down in the morning. straight down where? the bakers. ah, yeah, yeah! well i'll but but i'll be down there. oh lore yeah! mm. oh yeah! i'm not a go , i'm not going down there. not th , yet. soon. after. worst bit now though sorry? trying to turn it out. mm. right! right! right! right! right! right! how much is seventy five? well stretch it on the two when you get no i don't like stretching it! well you have to stretch it! you stretch it when you put it on! i know, but it's good! well it's only a forty one! good god! i think i made it bigger than that! with your neck if it come out at a forty that'll be fine won't it? well it's only on six millimetre needles so it's always looks you know. i don't think i've got the touch! , look! look! i won't be able to do much more will i? ah, that's going plenty! aye it will. when you come over down your arm in the summer. one of those innit? one of them that you, well . i know, but i still have to do a twenty! well you got after this . i've done my bit. well then that's bloody or ! well it's fitting a blouse innit? dunno! put the front up and i'll measure! well, what we do seven will have to do. well if do more and you don't like it alright. well let well let me do, i've gotta get well get to your numbers yeah i'll get to my numbers. where is the front? i know the back or whatever it is, i dunno. i'm just doing the front. it's down there. this is a bit of a mess innit? the pick it up. you're not happy with it are you really? i am happy with it. i just can't get the high? no, i just can't get the enthusiasm cracking. i think it's yeah but we've only done so much. yeah i know, only i'm tired! really think i'm tired! and i really do think that! all the i've stuck after work. and i did try and sit on one of them. no, you're up and down like a yo-yo! now, and you're even more tired than if you start a family, you know? well i do, i do the little bits again. i dunno what we're doing on one of them. i didn't do it, i'll have to do it tomorrow. right. you know when they put in the foam wall cavity you know the, when they they're doing now a model. yeah! yes! erm green, red and yellow. oh! and they're all for brurgh er er, i dunno! th the three colours are a purpose. oh, so they know what length,wha whatever! whatever! it is. which er they're all the same size. no but they're all the same size they're just different colours, so whenever to tell the width in between the walls obviously. . well i dunno! i wondered if it was different solution? yeah. i dunno what it is but they're about that long and about that round and then they got this trigger like you similar what you do on the vax hold the trigger. and they make those horrible shoe box they were open. , once it shuts, did you ever see those? come up like that? no. you didn't see them? they are good! they're not supposed to be but they are virtually child-proof now, they showed them! well they a , they are! you seen me shopping in before. as doreen says to me did i see the one on number six? well yes i did. but you didn't see very much. but i didn't take a lot of it. all i saw was he was tall one i never saw i could see the impression and it was like four stars. oh! and i just turned round cos i was making these trigger things, you know this cavity yeah. thing and i went cor that's pretty tall! never thought any more about it and she said to me was that this morning? oh the other er she said i'd had four of those, and i said what are they then? and they're tips to put on the canes so you don't poke your eyes out in the garden. but i ain't seen one yet. now, i remember ages, ages, ages ago this was talked about. but it never materialised, well it has now! but i hadn't actually looked at one, picked one up myself but she pinched four. but they obviously don't pinch them do they cos rita? er, no . oh yeah! they tried it first cos it's brand new tool. only about that big four, cos they go in one of the little machines. but i know, talking about, i shall be down there. yeah, i shall be down there tomorrow. next to the the the triggers. , i know. i mean, she hasn't got a man of her own but there's plenty going in there is he? do you know she hasn't got a man of her own? no. i think she has actually. i think it's that one in that blooming great blue thing. brought that big present in at christmas. he, she went out in the car with him one day last year. did she? she went out all dressed up and he drove her blue car. no, i don't know! there's so many men go in there! i just dunno! but he came with a box that day. it's probably the dead father! he did stay for christmas! and then two days before christmas he didn't stay. ? i didn't ma know damn who they are . well he works here i know that! urgh! look at those! stay with me . stay with me .? gone outside. stay with me . stay with me oh oh oh stay with me. doo be doo be doo be doo be doo be doo! stay with me . the reason your system is not going mother is because you keep bloody ! i know! i know! i know! that's cos i think there are two coloured one next. ooh the got one! alright. no! i know bu , no, i don't wanna leave it! i wanna see it finished! get on with it then! but it's the cost. it's and say get on with it! that's alright. i will! think we better start doing more over it? oh god! i do! well i think it's, we're insufficient. no. i do! i don't! mm! well i enjoy my swimming, like. yeah, but we won't be swimming will we? we'll have to have another swimming night. look no! the whole point is what am i going on to, i'm going for free aren't i? yeah. it's innit? it's still and and foggy and innit? yeah. the thing is we can stay longer in the swimming pool. we had a hell of a long time in the what's it? didn't we? yes but it's worse having a hell of a lot of time in there cos that's what you're yeah i know it is! paying for! well, it don't matter! it's another one pound something, that's all innit? it's one pound sixty forty. yeah. one pound forty to three pound no, one pound sixty to three pound seventy five. seventy five. so that's nearly two pound. well, so what! we got a lot of facility. but i mean i, i could of swum more. i like the other, i like both of it. well that's why i say now you can see just what i say. well no, i weren't gonna say . oh i do! where's that i've got it. well start he's foreign don't worry! if you start that off we're not gonna forget it are we? put that up there. they working a car?pull , put it back in. oh! thing what's the matter? . let me run it forward here. no it's alright we'll do them. just gotta try it. well right, do this. well they do get stuck. it's incredible! . can't really use for it can you? why is this one put this over there. i'm not gonna start it now. oh! ha! long holes. ha! the details along this one. her er!. strange innit? yeah. they're the ones that don't bother taking them. strange alright! well yeah. whoever's done that . ah! oh! right,monka one more. well i think one night of aerobic, one night oh dear ! and i've gotta find a blooming aerobics suit now! no, you don't! claire will lend you, will do! and what, i'm a sod! well marylin's yeah. first. then you got sian, then you got a, ooh! very weird! what do you mean? windsurfing. , innit? ladies and start the kitchen and all that. yes, but it's good when it's done you see! ha! ha! ha! well you wouldn't it's good! want me to do it on my own would you? oh no! you'll have to join her and do it. i've only got this blue and black. well it's over there. they'll let me through, er sainsburys? oh yeah! have to be a thursday i think. ah? i say, it has to be a thursday. oh darling! der darling! or we could always do the aqua suite. no er necessarily lo like that. i think that's why it comes out a bit boring. well lesley said that about the aerobics didn't she? yeah, but i think at the moment lesley's finding everything boring! yeah, she is too! don't you? yeah, they got a lot of problems mind. well haven't we all? no, not at all actually. alright. i think for lesley taking up a bit personally. do you? i think she's gardening too much! yeah. but, that's up to her. well you look, oh the other one too, i mean she's being stupid with her ! really. i mean, let's be honest, alright, so she does wanna whether she do want the firm to fold or not, i'm not certain. but i mean, when your phoned in. i would of said why? yeah! cos i would! i would! i would! certainly would bev! mm. well if anything comes to me from arnie who? too right! from now on. well, i said, tell the truth all the time didn't i? i'm somewhat wondering about this flat. and i am. what . only i think you'll have to. if that's the way you feel. where yo where you are i mean they'll have nothing. is there anything i should be doing to this flat? and then, she might well say either she does want something from them or she ain't! won't she? mm. oh she's said . well if, i sometimes feel a letter, i mean you what she said that morning when you phoned? yeah. i sometimes, this is what i said marion i just feel a letter doesn't pressurise them. alright, you gotta wait a couple a days for a reply but erm i do think sometimes, anyway, it's on paper then isn't it? yeah. i mean fortunately you put all that in that first letter didn't you? ah? don't you want it on? . that's the top? naughty girl! oh! they always used to people with adverts. yeah. ha! yeah, it's true innit? what is? oh they're over here. well they're we meant to be? are they? well! didn't take no notice of the old woman!. ay? yeah! why is some ? i dunno. not really. in there? i thought dashwood was going out of this here bill. no. well it's in the paper anyway. is he? . i'd say for what he wants. i thought it was tuesday night cos he he were really bad to them offer ats , offer some jobs to sell. er security systems. oh! oh the security people and he were going innit? mm. and that proved to be a fraud. oh! ha! that's what he was in it for. so where are, where is your ? ha! could of brought them . what? yeah, but in ankle. yeah but you don't get a security nine pound now do you? yeah. yeah. i thought you got fifty one pound something? no! it's no, it's twenty nine twenty nine sixty five. yo you if i got my first one was fifty one ah! because oh! and then i had days on you get up to on call. you got seventy nine last time? yeah. yeah. aha! oh god, yeah! mm. oh no! it's not that much! yeah. well er they're not much, nothing you need to do is there? no. i didn't think there was at all. not until er i mean if you do ge get that job if you do get that job then i've got a thing to send in. yes, that's right. what do you want me to do then? well stand up for a start! oh! alright. urgh! dirty wasn't it? i'd look very nice with erm that. nope! nope! not one in here. no. oh blow me stupid! oh crike who were that, you or me! you. oh! i couldn't hear. no. oh no! i warned you! well he didn't listen then did he? have you done it? yeah. yeah. oh god, those blasted sweets! he looks that i know mum. does he really? the, long hair i reckon. what there? yeah, that's a mole. cos then it catches the light. mm. it looks like a line. which makes him real menacing! mm! horrible! mm!innit? children of my own, they asked what will i be? will i ? will i be rich? ca cera cera, whatever will be will be, the future's not ours to see, ca cera cera, what will be ca cera cera ! oh! oh! oh ! urgh! that's horrible innit? it looks awful! looks like granny . does it? well really! yeah. and this, bit . i have! i have! i have! i have! i have! i have! yoh, ho ho ho ho ho ! we are going to watch us girls. yeah. are we? is that what you said? yes mum. new si part comedy series. i wonder why they put that car down there tonight? i wonder if alan's said something. because they er to try and get them out. yeah. it's, might have left a note on. he might have done. but he would do it! gosh, he's got a bloody right to! yeah. well that's the first time i've known them go down there. but, i didn't know when he go out. ah, has he left enough room for our ? well it's bloody far, too far to no, you go over by georges don't you? as long anything. yeah but you gotta leave enough room for yeah, there's enough for both of them. oh. well i've never known them do that before have you? but when i er come down this morning i thought christ he's never gonna get out of there! cos i mean it's an awkward space innit mick? yeah. and they don't seem to have do they? he must have had a job. what's this then? peugeot one o, er one o six. oh! is it, or a renault? i gotta bloody do three more stitches wouldn't you? why? yeah! the more you sew there's now four. yeah! well just carry stitches and then bring in a bit and then double up . well no because do it that way. you've done these two yeah. cos you got one stitch there then you've made one so, one, two, three. do it then. you do it your way! i wouldn't do it that way personally but then well then you have one out won't you? already. no! what do you wanna do? i wanna do rib four then and then up to that's how would do it. i'm not saying it'll come out right, but that's what i'm saying i would do it. is this it? you wanna watch the ? why? it's on now innit? last of the summer wine, us girls. it's only on one. you're on one aren't you? no i'm not. i'm not! i am now. not on video is it? m whining farting howling erm he came in at half past five and er overnight again she's got two carloads there so it was just the same till gone eleven anyway when mick came in i said to him what did that bloke say and he said he's looking out some different equipment to what he mm and hopefully but i said to him about duttons road and i said to him what i'll do is, i've gotta go to town tomorrow i'll er get some tapes and start taping mm. and write a letter for duttons road, enclose one of the tapes and say where do i go from here? i mean you know, i mean it was just impossible, i don't know what the hell's going on in there. there's two cars in the road, two in the drive this morning. been there all night. course they're all in bed aren't they? yeah. do you know bus fares go up sunday? well i haven't been using the bus sandra. twenty eight now it will be and thirty four from the hospital. ooh! dear oh dear. there was a notice and it was monday and i said, you know, what was it? oh, don't really know, they tend to go up sort of two well sometimes they went up one. some while back. well yeah, i don't think any of them are going up one this time. well we've been walking, i mean we ain't been out this week. so it was the chatty one this morning. he started chatting and there was nobody else on the bus and i said to him what are they? it's twenty eight. i said what's the hospital ? he said thirty four. the drove should be forty seven he said but it's an odd amount. he said they may, cos it's forty five at the moment yeah. he said they may just go one to forty six he said or they may even go forty eight on that one to even it up. ah there's the continuation innit? and he said thank goodness,h he said oh they got and i said yeah i've got monday and tuesday off he said, it might have died down when i get back he said cos us drivers take all the stick. i suppose that's perfectly true. which yeah i said well there's nobody else, i said they get on and you say i want more money but he said it's a nightmare. gotta be. gotta be innit? but i mean the hospital, when you think yeah but people don't realize do they? that need, you know if you're, unless you live sort of here you're going up for appointments, doctors, whatever well that's what i mean. and you don't feel like walking. you get on, i mean if it's a mum and a kid or oh well we've been walking when we've gone into town but i mean just between you and me but when i got home bev said pop into town i've got a parcel to post and i said well i can't i said because according to des well nothing happened it didn't. and she got a bit angry and i, i get a bit angry so i said, because i said well what the hell is going on? now he should of kept his mouth shut. i mean if she's gone home he should. and said ooh they didn't half seem interested, i reckon they might then he comes in and says well i'm not gonna say a word to him sandra, i'm not gonna say a word, i'm gonna wait on and see if he says anything and er she got cos surely i mean if they'd of said we are going to mm but they didn't yeah. well i think it's a just a mess about place don't you? i mean she's in and out of town all the time like you said here there and bloody everywhere. perhaps they had something else in mind, perhaps it's her. perhaps she was thinking oh yes it's well why didn't he say that yesterday then? i mean it or is he twisting what she says. well but yesterday, when he said that, you'd of thought well i did well mind you, the only thing is he said did she get a phone call yesterday and she never so he might have he expected her to have had one. would you not think? yeah. yeah. but she's getting cross now cos i said to her look you've gotta think about this seriously. you going out there, you stop all your income support and it co turns out to be a bloody week or something well alright you turn round and get back on income support but it's not simple is it? is she regis she's registered with quite a few agencies hasn't she? all of them yeah. yeah cos they tend to well as far as i know. phone up thursday yeah. even friday morning yeah. when they've just had a call in, to start on monday. yeah. you know, so it's her but i, i mean i'm the possibility that she could get some yeah. well i'm not very happy about this situation at all, i have to say. alright so he should keep his mouth shut, this i agree with but at the same time she leaves well so somebody ain't tomorrow. yeah somebody ain't telling the truth are they? no. so it's up to her. i said to her well it's up to you what you do, but i said er i, i don't like the situation. i mean she sat watching neighbours all that day. he did say to me right in the very beginning basically it's answering the telephone. and then er that well if that's case she can go and work for one of the taxi companies and sit in their office and ans that's right. but that day that that woman phoned up the house erm she said i've been watching neighbours or something mm. and she said erm one of them, i think it was clive, he's just narked off she said. she did hello. hello doreen. hiya doreen. yeah, so it's up to bev what she does about it but i mean i'm bloody pissed off with it. she does keep on, but i'm not gonna say a word to him. she never got a phone call about that job ooh anyway i'm not saying a word to him, i'm gonna wait and see if and what he says because i say it's making me angry. and that's the second, third time he's said to me yeah. so i'm not gonna say nothing. well he brought it up in the first place. it wasn't as if absolutely. you said oh who's taking your wife's job. i never. never even bloody thought about it anyway. but i say it's in peculiar bloody works. but i don't think it is a works, i think it's two blokes, i dunno how many are there but it all i've heard of is these two bosses mm? and her. and i say if she sits watching neighbours and pops in to town to book a holiday for brittany and well i shan't, i shan't say you don't normally have televisions around do you? well that's what bev said. she said watching neighbours? but she told bev . and i said well annette said when she was up at but some do. but they were all to do with sort of satellite dishes and it was in their reception area and it had satellite t v on, and it was an advertising thing as much mm. as anything, if she ever had to do reception mm. she couldn't understand how, she said oh she said and, and a couple of channels that used to drive her up the wall. oh them things was on ooh er stupid person! god! well that must have been a big bit surely. seems nobody was underneath it. well bit late anyway weren't it? yeah well i say shut up now. mm i see that. body shop was on there erm saw it. this morning, no just now oh. i don't know whether they're having difficulties, i don't know what it was about but he seemed very serious, this man. it was all about money mm. but it wasn't their profits was it? cos they're all i dunno. issuing their yeah. yearly reports aren't they? yeah. yeah well the banks are all barclays only made only made five hundred and thirty three million. well that's nothing to them is it? i mean dunnit , it makes you laugh does it? yeah well it's nothing to them. million down innit? yeah. this is it. cor yeah but it's still a profit not a but erm loss innit? morning. yeah but they don't how much ? oh i didn't, i didn't know. er they said anyway, and then the parishes add their bit. cos it's in the erm oh i didn't know was it? mm. forty pound extra. oh i didn't know, i didn't see. how much, forty pound? forty pound wasn't it? mine's sixty pound actually. yours is? yeah cos we had a discount last year oh you did didn't you? yeah we had a twenty pound discount so we've got a hundred yeah that's right. and twenty to find this year. oh. i know i did seen it on the t v, different places, but i, i didn't know anything about here. my yesterday and said that well my cousin said they've gotta pay twenty pounds but my friend said there is a those who couldn't pay i dunno whether it'll do any good but i should think some of them well wouldn't want their neighbours to know. well in the end i expect there'll be a lot of places that do it don't you? i mean it's er true, isn't it? mm it's true so well one here. if you get caught jolly good job well yeah. did you see in, i don't know wha where it was free paper must be something they can do. the other day but yeah it must have been cos i haven't seen any papers since monday how many thousands don't pay on not paying their television licence. oh yeah. they've got oh really? thing now, it's . yeah they got, they can do it better now and well there you go, it's just another fraud fine them more and all. they're bringing fraud, i did see that on the t v, they're bringing fraud into it's innit? yeah. they're bringing it in or something or thinking of bringing actions forward into the or whatever. saw that this morning, something about it anyway. but er oh the first payments are due . but we started late last year didn't we? thought we started in june, but i got one more to pay. so i got i got friday to pay and that's ten months. i of that and i said to to him is that the last one? he said well i ain't heard nothing but well it is for me. definitely. i've got one more that's february's payment. that'll be february's payment yeah no the month so you'll have to no march. it would be march because we started late didn't we? do you remember? cos normally normally you finish in february yeah well normally i would of been finished wouldn't i? and we used to have march i pay it at the end of the previous month so it's due on the twenty eighth, twenty ninth we used to start paying the rates in may. yeah we did but i had a feeling we were late last year so i should think that's but i reckon we must cos the government changed it, it knocked hundred and forty quid off didn't they? yeah. no i, i, but i'm sure i've got one more to pay but it'll be the fifteenth of march that'll be due. mm. cos i do it, the day he gets paid i pay all the bills yeah. and that'll be for the next month but i said to i said well you might get a free month but i said or you in march and then ap supposedly april starts again. well that depends when they start again dunnit? unless they do it, less the banker's orders go start yeah. in may. don't know sandra. but i'm it was just a bit in the echo cos they're all about here and sure i've got one more to pay. eastleigh is quite high again. that's nearly three hundred. so's welwyn innit? welwyn's over three hundred. yeah. i saw that on the well proposed yeah. cos annette paid a lot when she was then at chandler's ford yeah very high one. ah. thanks gloria. mind you marguerite's was over the three hundred last year when she and where was that? er it's funny up round there cos there's about three different councils well although her address is hampshire yeah the postcode is guildford and you've got aldershot or there's and there's another one that is three different cou another one mm. but it was one, one of them anyway and hers was over three hundred so save a bit. mm. but once again they haven't worked hers out, i mean she told them she was down here in january and she still hasn't had a bill yet for the end of this year. well all you can do is tell them, i mean you're within the law then, it's up to them innit? you know? twenty one days don't you, when you move to no she notified the one she'd left. she said i'm not paying any more up there, i'm moving and notified i mean they all ought to be geared up for all this for christ's sake. mm. it must be happening every day of the damned week. yeah. they take so long to sort it. but i mean it's like hugh, they said he hadn't registered or something wasn't it? that's what they said. but ,said to me one day erm yeah but he wasn't paying it before was he? he hadn't registered, that's what i was told. yeah. so when the bit of paper came they just ignore it they said he well you, you haven't paid when he was out at cos you have to notify them that you're moving mm so one council's got a bit of paper and it ties up with the other one when you come here but if you don't, if you haven't paid before you couldn't tell them you were leaving or if he suddenly says here i'm here mm. well then the next question is where have you come from? mm that's, that's right yeah. yeah but he hadn't registered, that's what cos i said to well i don't really know this sort of thing i said,said here, that's first i knew. i said now there's three more of us that know that he's not paying poll tax mm. then she said yeah he told me all about it, she said he hadn't registered. and i said well if, if you're gonna do this sort of thing you keep your bloody gob shut. don't you? mm. cos there's all of us that know now, she knows. good job he didn't tell me. not that i could do anything but i wouldn't but he didn't register when they move into that new house though, cos i mean the council are aware that the new yeah. well you would think so sandra and services to be connected but i mean when you have a erm you know the builders might even say we've sold these two. when they don't have erm, when you have your election form and that and you send it in,do don't they come round if you haven't sent it back, or do they just, they used to didn't they? no. they don't check up. well i, i know something i erm, what was it then, what ? perhaps it was the erm sign those papers because they thought there was a tie-up perhaps it was when we had the census paper loads of people then was it? census paper had to be oh done, yeah. cos they came round then. why can't, if they don't get things back, why don't they come round? they can't cos i don't think there's enough in this country. what i said, if it was like enough people no! if it was like germany where everything is, is regimented, whatever word you wanna use whether you agree with this or whether you don't, everybody in germany pays everything that they should. mm. now, if you agree well i suppose that is it, you see in this they don't believe in believe more in freedom don't they? oh yeah hiya! they've blocked the idea of i d cards haven't they cos mm. yeah. well you see like we had in the war, we had an yeah. identity card. but you see you can say it's the big brother and all this rubbish, but the fact remains that we three are paying the poll tax and he is not. mm. this is it. this is how it ends up . i mean everything is, is well, regimented, i can't think of a better word germany they do it with t v licences yeah when he went in to hire or buy a television, they yes they do. yeah. had to notify the authorities that so and so has signed up for one. so perhaps the house mm. well i don't know but, but if they up there and bought a house well then the next question is well where have you come from? well of course and this is don't you feel whether it's so i mean yeah! so you and i and doreen let everybody come here don't we? i mean to say law in other countries but they're always pleased to come here and take all our what's it aren't they? this is it!immigration to stop. i mean all the scottish and the welsh,i always remember when when erm when the first houses, when we lived, when i lived with me mother, and in that house we lived in was a big estate erm near us and erm ever such a lot of welsh people lived there and, i don't know who it was, somebody wanted a place, couldn't get anywhere and my mother went up there with you let all the welsh people come here he s she said they run us down and that was years and years ago she said, nearly everybody on that estate's welsh ourselves. with dennis and marge we'd been out with dennis and marge you know, a while back, and they're both scottish and they run this country down to the i know. and he's, he's working in there! up until now, but, well are different now this is the last place he stopped, he would walk down the road if he heard of a job for five pound more mm. and and he always seemed to slip into it i expect. he did. now he's staying here they do don't they, scottish people? because of the state of the country, or the state of the employment, but we've been out, actually out with those two and they put this country down yet they never stayed up in scotland cos there was nothing to bloody do. now they own their coun well they're buying their council house he works for where was you know, and she's erm something director, financial director now. you see? i mean but i mean people are still flooding into this country today. mm. that's what i say, there'll always be, they run us down like mad and and yet they all come here. same as all these black countries didn't want us in there did they? but lot of them wanna come over here now things are getting bad for them. well no, that was another thing more or less as i was coming out the door they'd got the news thing on and this was australia the new prime minister, i don't know his name, he's running down i didn't hear it properly but i heard the gist of it, erm and it yeah it was running us down this morning cos britain something something something. mm. mm. the insults to the queen, i mean she grimaced when they said it and she had to i saw it in the papers. just sit there and she's not allowed to answer back. she's, no cos erm he in a speech didn't he? then he put his arm round her and his wife won't curtsy , she's dutch, the dutch are just as bad as anybody now , just lately, i mean lot of these terrorists get in through holland don't they? they don't seem to do nothing to him. yeah. in the sun and there he was was saying you know, no we virtually we don't want anything to do with the queen and all that i don't know why they don't write push off! something on the news this morning about, about this and then don't this prime minister something wrong with this, english they wanna separate from us. and they're, i mean they're not all good at the environment because what's his name david bellamy was out there when because they were gonna do something weren't they? he was protesting oh yeah something on the erm reef or something wasn't it? something to do with david bellamy yeah. or something. you don't cos you don't get all these things but christine has the new scientist every week and i don't know why it's always us, but you wanna read that sometimes, i don't read a lot cos i don't understand it but some of the things that some of the countries are doing and yet it's always us. i mean there's a, there was a programme on i watched last night,on the sea or ? it runs past germany, denmark and holland and then into sort of north sea and the rhine comes in it and it's terribly zeider zee polluted. yeah. i said to leslie it's only us, and yet it's germany does that bit, holland does this bit and denmark is doing something else. there was a programme, there was i mean a lot of it was east germany but there was a programme on west germany that was a while back now and the rivers were in filth oh. and yet it's only us. yeah. only us. yeah. i don't know i mean when they find a bit here there's all hell let loose isn't there? i mean even down well that's right. they had that central heating oil and there was a big boom built all round to stop it spreading. and i went through there, when did i go down with you and i went past ? and outside where those students sit, i thought the young people were when you read some of that in paper the cigarette ends and crisp packets, well that can only be the students, i mean people go through but they're not well they sit, they sit on the steps don't they? they sit on the steps terrible that, i thought ooh well mind you andover is, i thought for two pins i'd sort of say to them, i thought well you might might say something to the erm to the wrong sort but i thought well i feel really so i wouldn't that job. i mean the other morning i looked down and somebody had thrown up in the street i know, it's horrible. all across the pavement and i thought sometimes we go down the salisbury road that's the you know by the time sort of office workers are going in, they've done all the streets and all the pavements but while they're doing it it's a hell of a mess. well i shan't go,said this morning do you wanna go to town today but i said well i've gotta go tomorrow mm. erm but i said we really hung around all day yesterday with that . i'd like to stuff it, i, i would! i'd say stuff it. i know she wants to get out of the house, i know mm she wants to do something she wants to get some money but i'm not so sure about this i'm not so sure about it. ask her what it is. no i don't know anything. i, i just think er er i've got a feeling one day when i said something he come up with a name but it didn't register where was this? it's up where i got my carpet, up erm commercial centre, oh i mean if she if she buses she got a half hour walk there so it's gotta be ain't she? yeah. i mean if it, if it i mean originally he said to me it was part time so i thought to myself well that'll be perfect, just get her back into the flow again. yeah. then this woman says erm nine nine till five thirty i think she said well the five thirty bit would be alright wouldn't it mm. the nine, well you go down into and you get a bus go wherever it dropped you and then half a mile, mind you that's gonna cost you about fifty p what? mm. just to get really? mm. that's right,yeah. it must do if it's gonna be forty eight to the drove, yeah. mm. cos they go up on saturday. yeah it's erm forty to . if i went down what now? if i went up and down it would cost me eighty pence. well it's going up two p on monday. actually it was erm i forget what it was when me mother-in-law died and she used to moan about the shop and i said to christine the time she goes down and back i mean things are dear in, but some of the things in the shop now, and then, are cheaper than down the town, so if you take your, your bus yeah now if i was to go there and back that's eighty pence, i mean i could get, for, for that e extra eighty pence i could get a few things in there that are dearer but i mean i like going down the town anyway and just wander and go back but i do get a few more bits in there now than i did. well mine's going up to twenty eight i mean it is a few years back but i can remember not long ago it was eighteen p i pay twenty six now. and i said to him what's it going up? thinking will it be a penny or twopence and he said twenty eight. thirty four to . my friend sent me erm some erm been on the bus for two years. dolls clothes' patterns as well yesterday and they weren't half old cos on one of them there was a, a doll that you could send the doll for , there was a lot of those in women's weekly weren't there? oh yeah. and the doll was twenty two and nine. and it was about this, it looked this big this doll and three and three for the postage and packing. i thought now oh now you'd have about two pound for postage and packing wouldn't you, and i don't know what the doll would cost. cos some of them are three ply and i thought i'm not gonna sit and knit three ply. again for them and erm i got a phone call again from pauline yesterday and now wants a wine making book and it's mm by that bloke berry from andover oh yeah we've got one of them. and er i said we've been to his house, mick and me long time ago when he lived way and erm i said to mick well have i gotta send this? and he said well no i don't think so, he said, er too late this year for it. take it. take it with us. more postage. what is it cheaper cos i say it's never too late actually for wine making cos it depends what you can well it's their grapes cos they've done it you see. yeah. four and andrew's round there now. well yeah but she put that what's it miracle innit? that what? that clocking in clock two i know. two minutes slow, i mean they go by that. he wouldn't bother about yeah but when it's the other one that's slow they go by the other one. oh dear, well he shouldn't leave two there then should he? they go by the slowest clock. innit? mm? yeah but that's the one they start by, you know he, he starts when he feels like it. he won't do nothing like that. well i suppose they could start at seven thirty well no by the clocking in clock. eh? go out by the clocking in clock. yeah that's it. when i, when you were all doing nights everybody else does. when mikie was here and you were doing nights, and he called us one day and i said it's not six o'clock yet he said you're two minutes to i was told it was two minutes to six that we yeah that's it. that's what i was told when i come here. don't let her steve i'm leaving steve, don't let her. bye bye then. okay. ta ta then. not going down the town today ? me? yeah. depends how i feel when i get home. mm. if i feel brassed off i bloody well will. well it seems stupid thursday and friday, that's all. i mean another thing is oh there, yeah i dunno what that is. oh is it? it's quite nice when it's out oh. but i mean it's a pain oh it is a weed though innit? oh it's n well half and half. i suppose really. what, like a rockery? it's an old cottage type really. oh. bye. see you. cheerio. oh i don't know a weed i did. oh i bet bloody phone . he never said a word. not a word. said to me has he, has she heard anything and i said no and i told her what she said. she said well you don't wanna take no notice of him. i reckon what it is talked about it what a good idea or something he is a liar. mind you she phoned her once look. yeah. she was supposed to phone her back tuesday, that's what his wife said. yeah. it could well be that have got other ideas. well i said i mean they don't have to tell you everything no work somewhere do they? i said to bev erm don't mean to say, i mean i might get home and find she's got a phone call but she said to me yes i mean we, she did think of going out yesterday, and it was me that stopped it but if i feel so inclined today we'll go down if she's in yeah. cos i haven't been for about a month, three weeks. just for the afternoon. no he's got funny attitude he's horrible really you know. i mean there are occasions when you don't you find it so terribly annoying that he's walking round not paying his poll tax? mm. don't you? well i do sandra. i mean doreen said erm i wouldn't do nothing about it but well when we found out she said i will, i'll report him but you know when you know well i mean what all you can do really is anonymously is phone up hello. oh here she is. alright? hiya. yeah. having a walkies today, well why not. why not? a nice day. tis nice innit? i say if you want we'll phone leslie yeah. i said to sandra, well this job business bev, he's not said a bloody word to me this morning he's, in actual fact he's been well yeah, he hasn't been able to he hasn't been talking to anybody has he? no, but he hasn't been able to because he has to come round but he's all ra ra ra ra, whistle whistle whistle. well let's face it, she said she'd phone me tuesday tuesday mm. but it's now it's thursday today but there's there's something i didn't tell you the other day oh yeah and i did say to you that you must go, if you go there you must go on the books because you're with a solicitor oh yeah. yeah. well i, what i didn't tell you was i don't know if i told sandra did i? no i didn't can't remember it. no well they wanted me to go on casual. yeah. you can't be casual any more it's against the law. well well well even bar work but it's well it's against the law now. he said to me one day, and i don't remember the day he said the best thing would be for her to go on casual, then she can keep her thingy thingy. well i never said oh yeah, i'm sure! yeah, well i never so you can do the same as him and you can also not register for poll tax. well she's registered already. i'm registered already. and i mean if she got this job she'd have to pay the full amount, if she's on income support you don't do you? no. i only pay twenty percent when but that's beside the point. yeah well but i'd rather pay the lot i tell you . well no, that's very fair comment bev but i think this is a dodgy do. i find this it sounds it. i find this strange. anyway what he said to me was i reckon they're gonna carry on paying her, keep her on the books yeah. yeah, no they're not, they're giving her a lump sum you see with maternity they have to do it anyway. yeah but they're giving her it all in one lump sum, that's the deposit on their place. he told me that. but this other bit that i was telling you mm? he phoned her that mor it was that morning, i know it was now, and anyway he went off and he phoned her and he came back and he said to me yes she'll, give us your phone number didn't he? yeah and she said, he said she said yes that's cheaper for us. cos they won't be paying any nothing. thingy doodles, i, i said i don't think you ought to touch it. well i couldn't do that anyway, i'd have to say well that's what i said to you if you take me on then it's gotta go on i told you that didn't i? but i didn't tell you all that was said cos i thought well i'm not gonna say it if there's no need because you would automatically go there i ain't do nothing against the law. well i think it's gonna be difficult anyway bev. and the bus fares will be well it'd be very expensive in the long run. i don't well,probably like some of the others cos they get a bus in on market day, they get a bus home well she said it, you have to catch the woolworth one, the one for woolworth and then walk half a mile. i, i don't, i i'm bothered i know. i'm bothered about it though. well sandra and that's years back now. that was one po no that was seventy five each way but they go up through and it's now gonna be twenty eight to manor road oh just before the hospital the hospital? and depending on whether they can't have an odd or even amount forty eight to the drove which is as far as, if you work at , that's as far as you can get in the morning and get off and walk through. yeah. but i'm, i'm bothered by all this. i know he's a liar, i know he can be a liar, but i'm still bothered by it, i mean well it's thursday and she was supposed to phone you tuesday but he still keeps if she phones then it'll it, it will be i wouldn't take it unless it's on my terms. i think it, you know it would have to go through the books well it would. because no way well somebody sooner or later's gonna catch up, i can't understand really why these people think oh i'll get away with it. i don't know why they bother. i don't know why they well it's like cos they don't half hammer you and if they catch up with you once they watch you like a hawk. yeah but this is the one that ain't paying his poll tax look bev. yeah. ain't registered. well you've bloody registered and you've only been back a month haven't you? month and a bit yeah. month and a bit. no i don't like this, i don't er it sticks in your mind don't it? well it would be on my terms, there's no way i'd go cos i know it's against the law well sue said that to me up here didn't she? yeah and they they can't do it. and it was too much hassle to put her into any other job. yes it was. but i mean national insurance mm. oh that's something i was cos quite how they work it out i know before well you had to notify all your employ everybody knew yeah. and between them they decided yeah. right now twenty five percent cash i've just remembered this, her saying about annette, you know when sue came up and said about erm being stunk out by the exhaust on that yeah bloody lorry mhm. right then we got on to talking about him going into the gents and what he does, he don't shut the door and such mm. right? and i said yeah, i was on one and suzie was on seven, and i said yeah, even the cleaners complain, you know, in the evening that he don't shut the door when he goes to the loo and er i said, must have said, when she's working and dee dee turned round and she gl she laughed and said working? i said well whatever you wanna call it. and then er i said well th this place was never like this when old was here and, and dee said no it damned well wasn't. and i looked at sue and i said you know she's got twenty jobs erm two cleaning and childminding. childminding. and i said how, i , how does he get on ? she said oh that's up to her, that's nothing to do with us. so if he does declare them well if she's childminding, she can say she's self employed. she's self employed there. therefore was it there when you left for work this morning? there were there were four there this morning when i went to work. sue's been there all bloody day. i think their kid's got a bloody new organ he's going dong dong dong boing good. well let's hope your father brings that thing home tonight. if not i'll go and buy one tomorrow. i'll go and buy something. i got up about quarter to nine yeah? and i heard it all before i got out of bed. this bloody organ something should be done . well i was gonna send a tape look. if he brings, i won't and i think i how do i stand no well i was gonna do that write a letter,, send a tape to say here's an example of how we're living, and leave it up to them then. yeah but what's the point? what's the point? if i can because you might they might say before you can do anything you've gotta give them this fourteen days notice. well then they'll tell me won't they? but at least it'll be on the cards won't it? i'd sooner tape because i mean that was quite impressive that tape with all that static wasn't it? yeah. seen me i was running from one room to the other. it was terrible downstairs wasn't it? but she was laying in bed listening to them last night weren't you? yeah i don't know what they was playing at. god knows what they get up to in there. it sounded like the mach er like erm a motorbike, so whether they've got video games she was laying in bed. and we so whether they've got video games. were awful. well we erm we didn't go to bed till did we? about quarter to eleven we got to bed, but they were going on i fell asleep during the middle of it cos i just got used to the noise yeah see you tomorrow yeah see you. right i'll get us some fags, we'll have a couple of cakes. well i don't see the point, i mean we're staying in every bloody daft day aren't we? you know? and i really think eh? i said i can't see it coming off. i think it's bloody i must be honest. peculiar innit? who wants to do that travelling every day anyway? well this is what she said ju just now, yeah well not just now, earlier on, she said about getting out there and i said well i'm sure it's that place she said well it's the only one out there that she could think of. do you want one of these? and er i said to her well and er she said that she was embarrassed, i think he's about the yeah the best erm sort of well no no but he was dodgy to me conversation anything else we need? we're alright for milk erm anything else? hiya may. oh hiya wendy, alright? yeah. erm bye bev. see you. i don't know. erm let me think, can't remember now. no? erm go and see if there's any nice big spuds nice weather isn't it? yeah. well i'm done now for till tomorrow morning and then thank god it's friday i say. i don't know what we want for tonight but we might go down my sister's this afternoon so we want something easy for when we come back. that's right, yeah. mm. no job yet bev? no. no, not yet. it's hopeless innit? tis at the moment blooming is innit? at the moment expect you get a bit bored don't you? well i say if we can go in and out and not stick indoors all the time you know? yeah cos you help with the chores as well that's right yeah yeah. there is some mince in there. shall we do a stew in a pot before we go? oh i was gonna do a erm shepherd's pie? shepherd's pie wasn't i? yeah. well i've got what's the time yeah but then we don't wanna be too late back do we so yeah but then you're only, it'll be all cooked won't it? that's gotta be coo i'm sure we can get spuds out for that. we got onions, we got mince and we've got oxos, let's do that shall we, have one of those? then all that's gotta be done is chucked in the oven innit? but i don't see staying in every damned day for this er no no no no no no no do you? no. right we'll do that. i mean we'll erm carrots then don't we? well if you want carrots, yeah. well do you want carrots in it or i don't mind. if you want them get them, it won't do any harm. go and get two or three. go and get two or three, that'll do. right i want forty red band marlborough and quarter of peppermints if you've got them today. i don't know i the other day. no, i'll get her chews then. and she's getting erm two or three carrots. no there weren't many left i remember love the other day. ooh beautiful out innit? sun comes out it's always the way innit? last week. it's always the way innit? yeah. i mean yesterday i did a load of washing it's been in the garage ever since cos i mm mine's in the conservatory. i thought it was gonna pour yesterday. mm i did and i, course i went out at eleven so yeah, so you don't chance it do you? no okay? here you are. cheers. right right right sixty six thank you very much. there you are. anything else you can think of? don't think so. that'll do fine won't it? thanks maureen, bye. cheerio then. right well it's the sort of day we walk down there innit? yeah. i like those walks in this, in this weather. no they was all on about theirs this morning erm poll tax cos it's well there's no way i against the well sandra started off saying it's two hundred and seventeen pound each poll tax plus there's gonna be more on top because of the parish or something, but the actual borough rate is two hundred and seventeen and er then whatever it comes out at mm. forty pound off something and er course then doreen gets on to the subject of des again and all these people that don't pay cos apparently somewhere, and i she said portsmouth but i'm not i can't really remember what she said oh hello. they're gonna put a list up of non payers but you can't put a lit up of people like him because he's not registered. he's not registered anywhere. no. because it's like one of the girls now their place is close to two areas yeah. because they were paying it over here until we had to pay yeah so she said oh yeah. yeah. because they were paying for her house, she wasn't her husband and herself didn't have to pay over there no. hiya hiya. because when her their house and it was being paid through there better off then are they? oh i don't bloody know well it's alright, we'll get something sorted. and erm then it was, she said we had to so i don't know what happens when at the what? who said, who told them ? well they're actually paying for it on the erm on the books? books. this is the council. they wrote back and said you have proof but you don't have receipts and no i know er yeah. cos she said well yeah. and she who?? yeah. oh. there's a letter for howard. for howard? what the whole ? yes. when i twisted it yeah? to turn it on well it suddenly went. oh well he said he he said he'd have to have a look at it didn't he? what? oh look look. well if i erm could take it down leslie's and tell her or what? will she want a tape down there? oh we'll see. i'll take that, i'll readdress that letter and mm. and that can go in the box can't it? yeah. normally, i say, i don't see the point of staying in for this. no. i know we've gotta go out tomorrow but then if we don't go down there today we're not gonna go this week. no. but she she was pleased to hear give you a hand with this. yeah. it's dirty, it runs out black. that's a new, brand new tap that is. brand new tap. i don't know who you do that well let's take the whole lot out. well give me the bowl and i'll put it in the bath. that'll be a job for tim won't it? yeah. oh yeah. i just hope that that boy i'm sure he will. i mean he oh yeah he said he understood why we wanted to do it. but and can hear the crackle and the bloody yeah you can cos the ba er the crackle is very bad. these two? yeah, that's all we've got left. yeah well i mean with all this noise and that you don't feel like doing much do you? no. anyway i talked to ann about this this morning and we've come to the decision to leave it on because that's what we did in the in the erm we knew you would. in the ha in the what's name there and it might be a better idea because it's not . so if we start pulling them about which is cos i said to her about the hall and if i don't scrub it all off we're gonna have to erm gonna have to do the hall and er i said we've got to try to put it on because the walls are so ooh bitty you know what i mean? yeah. and er i really feel that, you know, you can make yourself more bloody trouble cos that's what happened to helen next door. when she got the erm paper off in the erm er er in the hall, she found it all fell apart. all the walls fell apart. it's like living back in the flat. i've done this before, but i mean tim will have to have a look at it when he yeah. if it, if we can't, oh it's the dustman have we dustman innit? yeah. have we got a bucket? i've got a bucket yeah, why? well it's easier with a bucket. oh. oh a kettle should do, after that lot. if we can get that lot sorted mm. and then you can use the kettle can't you? yes. oh finished that sleeve off but i must sew it on. yeah? yeah. ? yeah. right i'll leave that there. no i'm afraid this des is well i'm not bothered. a very peculiar character, i just find it all so peculiar. and i mean dee said to me this morning cos she heard us one morning yeah. well des, she heard des look talking about it and er she said has she heard anything and i said no, i said not fully but more or less we stayed in yesterday cos you said shall we go out didn't you? yeah. and i said more or less we stayed in but not a word. and i say there was some sort of a an embarrassment i can only call it yeah. today. all this whistling and it was all nervous. nervous, yeah. bit of singing and and that sort of thing. well they wanna, don't matter to me at all i just think they're dodgy characters. and you know they don't pay the poll tax and you you've been told almost you can do it on casual. you got to think about it ain't you? mm. well i wouldn't do it on cas eh? i said i wouldn't do it on casual. well you wouldn't do it, no. too much bloody worry, i mean we've never done anything like that anyway. i say it's like him him not paying his poll tax. if he's gonna do things like that he wants to keep his gob shut doesn't he? yeah. you know? i just can't understand. but mind you he can't keep his gob shut, so i do understand you know that er yeah. that is the way he is. he's full of gut really. but anyway if they did phone now i think it's very bad practice if she's leaving tomorrow yeah cos sandra said why the hell has she left so late? you know i mean it must be three weeks now till she has it. she said you don't normally do that. well she could have it any day now. well that's what she said, fortnight either way actually. just exactly what sandra said. so she been in next door has she, all, the whole morning? yeah. yeah well of course only just gone from last bloody night haven't they? i mean she seems to fill the bloody house with people every day of the week. certainly some strange goings on in there i reckon. yeah well you see some people can't help that. some people what? can't help that. help what? but have people round. yeah but it's such a strange bloody house innit? don't know what's going on in there do you? well i would have liked to have known what the noise was last night, i'm sure it was a video game or something. if it picked up, if he finds what i think he could probably find us i mean he knows precisely what we want and he wants an amplifier. yes but as i said before he now has heard it so yeah. he knows what we want to eliminate. oh he'll come up trumps for us. i'm sure he will. what about the animals this morning then? oh not bad. well probably cos somebody'd been with them. innit? well if they're not left continually on their own they've got a bit of company haven't they? mm. that's the point. but when they're left totally on their own for hours and hours. well make the veg if i do that. woman and the man went up the garden the woman what? woman and the man and the kid yeah? the alsatian and one other bloody went up the garden? what were they doing then? talk. got a chicken and a bloody rabbit up there. well there was. whether there still is, i mean i used to hear the chicken making a ruddy noise. i mean obviously you won't hear the rabbit but i don't think i'm gonna stay in anyway. alright so we'll be out two days there's no but you're staying with me. nothing to do. i mean we even get bored with the knitting. eh? you can very easily get bored with knitting. mm. what's the ? oh but i mean i get to work i'm so bloody tired. i'll get those earplugs out for night times if it's necessary. mm. there you are. what? yeah. no we can shove that in the box. yeah. don't know what it is, don't need to open it do we? i know he's, he's up there this weekend. well you do know what? he'd probably be very pleased to see well all three of us if we wanted to. oh they brought that back in. yeah, i didn't think they were going. all three of us if we went up for a weekend. he's gotta work bev, he's not doing enough. he's not doing enough, he had one bad result another oh, i didn't know that. no you didn't did you? couple of decent ones and one bad one. and his average is sixty two percent. sunday but i mean i'm not sure, i'll say it now, i'm not sure i'm certainly not sure he's doing enough. if you think about it if you think about it i've probably yeah where he is up and down, up and down and people are in and out and yeah. well i'm sorry but from where i'm looking at it sixty two but not that i've thought about it in any depth but mm but there again and that have lived in town before oh yeah. so maybe not. probably touting for business, that's all it is. barclays have lost a load of money. yeah. right i can start yeah. if you want. it's in the freezer, there's a packet well i'll i'll do er carrots and that first. and i say if you do the spuds just well, if they start to go brown inside chuck them. right. cos it goes right the way through. there's a lot of out to the hospital though innit? yeah. well i think we'll have to find somewhere to lock it, well danny says there's places all over. well there will be. yeah. could get a, quite a a good deal i would have thought somewhere. use this tomato and onion? well why not? yeah that's a good idea. with minced beef, i won't put carrots in cos that no. might not be well see what they say. is there anything in here i've gotta get out? well the things will be in there things yeah one so i won't do carrots no. but you need some more onion yeah i'll do an onion. the potato will be on the top anyway so that won't matter will it? well it says serve with fresh mince vegetable, mixed vegetables. cos what you do is you put your meat in that, you don't put your no potato in it do potato on the side oh well we can do that then. that'll be simpler anyway won't it? yeah it'll be a pot of potatoes but i should put some onion in there though. oh yeah. cos he'll want that. and your meat and your meat yeah. so well that'll be a bit simpler won't it? could that be done in a pot? yeah, well it's for casserole so well a pot will be simpler for when we get back if she's in of course but no i can't see why not. mind you get your tea. yeah. i think we need a breather anyway. well it's just a waste of a lovely day. yeah. it's beautiful innit? well no, the reason i and because these things just go so quickly well yeah that maybe it would work out cheaper to start all over again. well they i would think up there there's a screw screw yeah. well will you have the new fashion taps or do you want different bits here? this but this is twenty five pounds worth there. yes i know. i mean it was only months ago cos it's only a while ago that tim came. i saw that down there again. do you want some more onion than that, yes? i should chuck another one in, what difference does it make? oh my eyes! yeah that is it. i mean there is a lot of wall space here that is not wall look. yeah. but i can't see the point of doing vinyl on that anyway i really cannot. here i'll tell you what oh yeah no, alright if you have that mm? i can have er emma freud explores the unspoilt i island of belize. mm. that'll be interesting i it's erm what's that, half past eight did you say? travelogue half past eight till nine. yeah. mm. yeah. oh she's swimming with a dolphin. is she? yeah. well that'll be interesting. mm mm yeah we'll do that as well then. oh you've got your, gotta do that cos you'll wanna be, you're watching morse aren't you? mm yeah. yeah. everything's bloody wednesday night isn't it? yeah. well you shouldn't have to go out then should you? right so it's eight thirty on four and nine o'clock on two. we'd have to get the bloody books out if i was here. oh yes, well he would. eight eight thirty on four listening oh shove it. and nine o'clock on i'm listening. on two, alright? i am listening. now what's the time? now, now i want something now. i don't want coronation street tomorrow's world def two's still on there's nothing well we'll have to have coronation street then. this is coronation this is discount. this is what? this is more discount on the oh oh mm. he was in soldier soldier who, this one? yeah. yeah he was the c o weren't he? no. the c o was a he looks like oh what's his name? he reminded me of him straight away patrick mcgowan the the colonel reminded me of him. mhm. it wasn't him it was just facially. told you in here who it was this is your life, gary's choice. oh it didn't! it says i can't give anything away but that the show is show's not a load of old cosh tonight that's naughty. tis a bit. go on, all made in advance. yeah yeah yeah yeah didn't realize that. what? made in advance? mm. they'd have to be really to get all the people together wouldn't they? oh bloody cup of tea now . i'm not staying in with you if you're gonna be in a foul mood mother. i'm not in a foul mood, i'm talking to myself. do you want tea ? yes please. yes please. does it work? ? in the kitchen. what, on the ceiling? no, on the walls. does it work? well i suppose so. have it done? eh? can we have it done? is it permanent? yeah it's permanent isn't it? yeah that's what i said to ann look. mm. what could you have done out there? well the, the, the best thing, best thing! the only thing is that's that's permanent is wood isn't it? yeah. and what sort of wood would that have to be? well you can please yourself, it could be that or pine or whatever can't it? mm. you choose your, your own like it used to be. that would be permanent wouldn't it? it had all better be that's the only thing it can be but to be permanent. or tiles. or, yeah, or tiles but tiles is all tiles is clinical. it's cold, yeah. it's always clinical. mm. gotta have something permanent there. mm. haven't we? to make it easier. and that wouldn't be cold would it? no. i never thought about that. where would you get that? oh all over the place. yeah, all over the place. yeah? that's quite an idea isn't it? is it very hard? no i should say with a er you know, i mean you've gotta er i if it's tongue and groove or, or whatever but as i say, tongue and groove is best. and that's this stuff here? yeah. quite an idea innit? be worth the money in the end wouldn't it? mm. and then would you varnish that? well that would depend on what you had see yeah if you you don't do it. it would be nice though wouldn't it? in the end. i mean that would all have to come off, all the lot wouldn't it? mm. everything. that would be rather nice you know. couldn't you get in? no. no . but as he says i'll probably get in he said er i was doing something. er er gotta be tomorrow. well you've gotta get it haven't you? yeah i've got it tomorrow well, the latest friday morning but i mean it's not as, i've gotta get it now. it's a pity you haven't got to earn enough to put in there and pay for it. mm. yeah it don't it make much odds though no i mean doesn't it? oh it was the other day when i went in there. mm. crikey that didn't take us any time at all. ugh pigeon shit on mine. ugh! mm probably. ugh. ooh ooh god . that was best night's sleep i had last night for ages. well if you go in mine no i'll go in that one. yeah but you well unless they make a noise. well i just put a thingy on. well if that boy's bringing that thing in we'll have to well there's no point in recording anything more. why? it's it's brings in something well it is, it's using it. mm hear that minute you said that i knew that but it never, it never i mean but we were doing so well. well you'll have to go through the lot. well that's you'll have to go through all the bs i wonder what made you stop pressing? i haven't, i haven't got a clue but i knew it the minute the second you said it i knew it. i say because i was running around a bit i think. yeah. i think that's probably the, the thing. just did it, that's the answer. blooming annoying though. what i had on it. alright, i'm up to hundred and one now. you rotten devil. well hadn't been any for ages. i could be it's getting very boring though. well see you're at the wrong colour. yeah. yeah i,the mix with this, did you? oh no. mm. sorry? and what colour is that? green. the erm nice, this oh no yeah that not that green. or that green? or that green. or that green. it'll have colour, it'll have pattern in it you see. it has yeah. ribbed bands going up there and there. mm. and i should put the pockets it. yeah. that's right. i might get a blooming letter from pauline someone then mightn't i? doubt it if she keeps ringing up. no i did, this week. the other ones wasn't it? no we, we all take a turn on it where you do it. where do you go, tesco's? i will do, yeah. oh you will do. yeah i'll go tomorrow then. oh yeah sure you were. well that's quite a point actually. no. well she always says get your arse back to eng get your arse back to to england. mother she's told me her mother. quite a lot about it. and she's a right ooh get your arse back well when peggy gets gets more yeah. but she to like that don't she? doesn't she? yeah. get your arse back to england she says. you're sure don't want this then? no otherwise i can't do alright then. oh god i can't stop yawning . he was an officer you know. he was an officer in that he was he wasn't the colour sergeant no he wasn't, he was an officer. in what? soldier soldier. oh i never watched it. he was captain. he was a captain. his wife was blond. i'm sure which one is it you're on about? i'll show you in a minute. show me. she was the blond one that had the affair with yeah the colonel looked like a erm the colonel was an irish bloke, wasn't he? i think he was company commander. yeah. something like that. cos he was certainly in charge of one of those he was cert when they did the erm he was in charge of the group. yeah, he, he, he was certainly in charge of those when they had that er mock mock fight, yeah. fight. not battle, that cos he he er what put one over on the boat who's had, been having an affair with his wife wasn't it? that's right. i missed the end of that, i i hope it'll come back on again cos i enjoyed it. that was late on at night though weren't it? yeah, oh it weren't late there. yeah it was here. eight o'clock. no yeah was late. it wasn't a time that i would, it er when i normally sit and watch it, no. no, not me. no it was ten o'clock at least. er yeah. oh no. eight o'clock over there. no, it was ten o'clock at least. prime time. no, not here . but there were a lot of things you could get when you get into them ? eh? yeah. take a long time. they show everybody don't they? mm. what? he gets i should think so, yeah. do you want to know who it is before i go out? no,two hour thing. slap your legs young man. wouldn't we mum? well it wouldn't much would it? you know if, oh pardon me. but if we sounds if it's recording dunnit? well if she does it i did it, so not me . that's oh dear! hundred and three. probably hundred and eleven now. but you've got fourteen more th fourteen more than me. i've got four more thank you very much, i've only gotta get hundred and fifteen. yeah, but seven a time oh yeah, i see what you mean. mm. yeah but you've gotta add on another six. for god's sake don't say i'm doing it wrong. no. you'll have to get to hundred and eleven mm. but then you add on six rows. oh do we? yeah, and then cast off. oh. there's morsey that car's right for him. it's a lovely car innit? i don't like the car myself oh i do. not for me i wouldn't. oh i think it's beautiful old car . i know who done it. you don't! you can't it's brand new. i know who's done it. really? yeah. doesn't he know her or something? there goes that bloody dog. there's two going. it's a bloody yapper and a bloody house innit? there goes the other one out the back. yeah. bloody people. we must try and get some really good ones though if he brings that machine in. i mean i pity about today. well that would have been morning what, when you were here? quiet that's when you can hear everything. mm. well i'll leave that job for you then if you never know, i might be busy. yeah the way he's bloody going i won't be. strange innit? well i i get a bit annoyed actually because like i said well it is a little bit annoying! well i, i am. i am a bit annoyed so i said don't get messed about i said this is the whole point cos if, if you get over there and there's and it's only for a bloody week it'll be annoying. yeah i just don't know. i never said a word to him, he said it to me. this is a little bit annoying now because i think so. yeah, i haven't even asked for it! i know. des said to me this morning did bev get a phone call yesterday and i said no. you know, from that works oh yeah. and he said oh she will today. eh? she will today. oh, she hasn't. no. no. that's it, it's getting a little bit annoying. yeah. i know. she leaves on friday. mm. well i would think it er isn't to be wouldn't you? well i dunno, that was this morning, he come up to me. oh yeah but that don't mean to say he she's got the oh no, no but i mean er i find it annoying anyway. it might mean that well if it's there it's there, if it's not it's not well that's it they might have decided not to. eh? eh? she could still get a phone call telling her sh telling her no, that's the other thing. well course she can but it seemed a bit strange that he said that this morning. yeah, yeah. doesn't it? now what? well i know where my oh is that yours?it's in my overall pockets and i, i tell you what's in the, in the thing with it, me petrol one and i had me premium punch put on there look. and it's in my overall pocket, i know it is. a damned good job i got one innit? yeah. well i could still get in but i couldn't lock the door say no bugger off. got a system now. it's bloody good too. well he's got a system i bloody would. hasn't he? right got your key? yeah. only one? yeah cos was the other one w in the car well, in the car fortunately. mm. see you later. yes. bye bye. nine o'clock well half past eight, nine. yeah channel four okay. must have been you can't be beating me! i'm not beating you. you are! you've only gotta do two more. oh no i'm doing the wrong one, i'll be hundred and five. i've done out all me rows, i've gotta come down instead of going across. i'll be hundred and five. oh i see what i've done now. is that him? yeah. i don't recognize him. oh it's there was a young boy there wasn't there? young boy? i don't remember that. well not a young boy but a young man. mm? who's he then? oh. cos when he was talking to his wife on the phone mm? that was a bit rude wasn't it? mm. yeah. well lewis is supposed to be i like him though. yeah he's supposed to be a bit mm. oh yeah. nice to go out for a meal, that'll be a nice. mm. what, with rosemary and that? yeah. well i think so, i mean they're all good company by the looks aren't they and well this is what i say. it's a different night innit, something you don't go out for meals do you? well i expect your father will have to take us out or perhaps anne'll pick us up. well you might find, cos they might want a drink that's it. taxi. mm. because margaret's only up the top there isn't she? yeah. yeah. or get your father to run us out and taxi back. i'd hate to have someone who also looked terrible with a mm i know scarf yeah. that's all it is. i know, some people can wear it, some people can't. that's all that is isn't it? yeah. that bowl of fruit there! when we going to the caribbean mum. mm. wouldn't it? that must be a little pub then, that thing is it? mm. eh? yes. oh before yeah that's a nice hairstyle if you can keep it like it. mm. you see trouble is you won't get it all one way. mm. poor old morsey. half past eight, what's the time? start it off now. oh. what did i say it was? oh god i can't remember. two. four. four. this is at two. this is on three i haven't really got hold of this yet. no nor me. is that it? yeah. yeah well we didn't concentrate on it when it started actually, we was all talking weren't we? that's the trouble. well the well son-in-law's trying to hide something. yeah, i didn't realize who he was actually. the wife that isn't the wife is another story. yeah. yeah oh god but i think he's trying to hide something . well but there was a young boy there no i didn't see him. cos it was while he was phoning, you know the, the boy said you can get a telephone qu er a special telephone fitted. oh that's right, that was the b t man. british telecom man. he was repairing the of course he was. telephone. but some hark at that bloody row next door. some boy or somebody cut the phone, you saw that at the beginning. no i didn't. i didn't see that. i'm sure we did. no that was the b t man. course it was. mm. he comes through and said if you want a you can have a special phone fitted. yeah. that's right. well we wanna know who this other woman is don't we? cos she wasn't the nurse cos she walked in half way through the inquest. what the one with the son-in-law. son-in-law is it? oh yeah, that was her daughter wasn't it? yeah. her daughter died and the son and the er grandson yeah. yeah that's right. a yoghurt. mm see what i've got will you? please. i had the black one, so something different. i think i've had all the mango ones. might not have done though. what? yeah i'll have a mango then please. we have nine left. we've got nine left now? yeah. good grief. oh well that's good then. first of march, i don't know what to do. well you go to town on them then. first of march? yeah. oh that's saturday then innit did i say? i don't know. i must go and get some wood. ah! what? ooh it's doctor and wife. he's gonna say he couldn't have pulled the trigger. mm. certainly will cos she's leaving well that don't matter, have a look and erm, it might turn out fine, it might keep you occupied for a while well do you want your water and that? yeah it's over there erm put it on again last night, they won't do it for me have i done that? no i haven't, damn it that would of been wouldn't it? yeah did i say one? i think so i think i did, er, mm no i say you've got to be choosy, certainly i'll agree with that, anyway by the sound of it, like said she seems like she's or does down there all i've got to know is, cos i shall write it all down mm is what buttons do what on that water actually that's right wordperfect thing, cos all it is most probably yeah well they , they correct spelling and all that don't they? well some of them some of them mm all i've gotta know is like sort of, which ones to press to get to hit a, b and c yeah erm you've done to get to the menu you could work out from the menu yeah , you've done your pills haven't you? yeah i've asked you that, nothing else you need to take down there i don't think so er ta, start the video ain't i? right station oh i'll check that, one, that's what i said didn't i? aye hello mummy, where are you? hello hello love, oh open the door would she, nobody else would get up ah? oh no just take cut her plant down like i did i had to cut that one down, it's all there look oh so what do i do here, i've put the potatoes on yeah what about this other stuff? put it in and stir it here i come what? i said here i come oh and i want it to be ready that's all one stir and store it in the fridge and use within three or two to three days, recipe for meat balls and onions divide them into neat piles, place in oven proof dish do you wanna do it that way? cos all you've got to do, it's the easiest way is it? yeah alright, i have i? i use is it, is that all you can do with it? well that's what it says, or microwave it, but that's just the same it's happened again don't worry right, i, the first thing i do is go out and sweep it off the road then, i can't, i just can't remember nip down and get a loaf yeah that , that must the last bread ah? well what do you want? you want this dish? well the only thing i can do put the plate on is, yeah, that will do, but it'll have to go that way yeah okay? which one? do the big one now what about oxos? no none at all? no, you don't need them if you want amazing what? cos i told you it does a bit don't it? phew oh well, so what number? er what's that? i know what number? four four i think she's trying to shelter too much though yeah sounds like it actually so is it, funny how they're older, they're old enough well lee's not no when i've had this tea i'll go down and get a cut one eh? when i've had this tea, i'll go down and get a cut won't be worth buying anything else down there anyway, cos it will be won't it? be interesting anyway probably have a few yeah, well there you are, there you are well sort out later, sort out on the right, well this can go in then can it? oh go on yeah , no that'll be fine right, well that's good well that's what we needed weren't it something like that? it said forty five and one hour, though stirring occasionally that'll do mum, cos you can use up the sausages really to make a quick supper we haven't half got through quick ain't we? i know oh well oh, oh look i'll have this tea and i'll go over and get something, the what? ah time up yeah i see that it just come through the door you know what that is don't you? what, a lot of it's adverts mind lot of adverts in there scissors where did they go? oh i've put them in the drawer, top drawer, the er kitchen drawer well you must be losing some weight then mother oh it is true, but it did, it did do it, but that was the other day and i didn't think that they had the same effect, no, well perhaps so, mind you i mean we have done a lot of walking, haven't we? but as i say if those bus fares are going up like sandra says you'll be doing a lot more won't be worth going on the bus unless like i said you've got a great load to carry but then that could be worked out on a saturday morning, it would mean going down there, after tesco's that's the only thing yeah, well we can do that tomorrow because you can't i can't, i forgot ha, mm mm well you might be home within an hour yeah won't you? that's the only way to look at it i'm afraid oh bugger me i'm, there's no way i'm not doing it by the books no can't afford to do that no, don't blame you i shall say well that's it, i'm a law abiding well no i mean it's not in your best interest and you wouldn't do it anyway, that's more to the point mm you've never done it so you won't bloody start now, it's not worth all the hassle, for god sake, you know damn well it's wrong oh there's another load next door now, in a white van party time yeah, that's that bloke who was on the bike right, cheers fifty p off vodka you want them? dunno you don't buy that there so this is advert thirty p off cans of beer that is or a bottle of wine i know i'm obviously not gonna take everything, am i? well cos i wouldn't fifty five, seventy, eighty, ninety five that'll do won't it? that'll do, i mean there will be people who take the whole damn lot, although i don't want to be embarrassed or just pick, pick out ones that well there's that one in the paper, i'll have that one, that'll probably go on longer that tetley tea one mm a comedy of errors at crickley mm ah well that's quite a thought innit? pity we ain't near sawbridgeworth play house yeah it's too much of a journey ain't it, they do quite an amount there i think still yes they do there and we'll probably fill our time, i mean if just if you're working that'll change it won't it? where's that? here where? quick read there oh, erm, we must, i won't do it tomorrow i don't think easter in jersey easter in jersey? yeah and i want that, whereabouts in jersey? just jersey oh that's oh this is where oh that's holland where else does it go? bruges, ypres and ypres ypres that's where my grandfather died ypres that's where it goes, southern ireland john cruise er choose, coaches john yeah that's alright as long as it's not an old one, ha day trip to brugus oh i ain't been there ha when's that? nineteenth of april, mystery tour that's easter innit? south of france nineteen is, is, is er good friday royal tournament italy, venice mm, still a few then ain't there? three day vine and, three day vine valley how much is that one? and hypermarket, doesn't say yeah see there's, they're alright, but if they don't fill it you don't go mm cos it happened before well well we must wait on a bit, we'll have to now, if she hadn't phoned it would of been, you know something nice to think about won't it? well they all finish in three months if that so yeah, oh , well april is easter, april nineteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two, and it looks like your father he said he might take some time innit? mm, so it's only a couple of months' work really oh yeah, if that, she short of cash she can well sure be back, i bet you, i wonder who's she taken over there? i can't see them two paying out for somebody to look after it and i cannot really i cannot seasons, well what you got on today? well mm italy in september yeah i read one today, that's better ha, sort of really i didn't know she was from wales no, nor did i you had a short skirt on today no it's not, a black skirt on the knee, it's charles' suit what? no it's not i can see them bloody lines on her stocking shorts could be fergie got er, erm bloody is it another sleepless night and i'll get my bloody ear plugs out could be oh well alright i'd better go and get some bread right anything else we need? don't know, don't think so eh? don't think so erm i know i had it this morning oh well we shall see what we shall see tonight i shall start it tonight, it's all noise, it's all what we are, no matter what their is, right, bread i'll turn those spuds off while i'll go out look, anything else then? yeah, we came in oh i wouldn't, i wouldn't no you wouldn't of mind no he came in and he'd been playing with this bloody lighter right well shh shh have you s watched the bill, do you watch them when they're inside the police station? it's all yeah. it's all hustle and bustle isn't it? and then someone has a conversation with someone else and then someone else has a conversation with someone else and if a man was to walk right the way through the police station he has about five or six conversations, and by the time he gets to the other end of the police station he's forgotten the first conversation. it's like miss, when she walks from the staff office to here, she could have four conversations and when she gets here she thinks what was the first conversation about again? it's like that, it's a little bit like it's a little bit like the bill because there's about four or five different conversations. alright? next question. yes young man. what was it like when you had your police dog? i have never had a police dog. i've never had, never been on er the special course. a lot of people like it because basically th er when you look after a police dog it becomes your pet as well, you take it home with you and you take it to work with you, and the u you'll have a police dog for sort of like its working life of seven to eight years, so basically you're gonna have him for seven to eight years and he becomes a fa like a family pet. i've never been on the course so i've never had a police dog. yes? why do you want to be a policeman? why did i want to be a policeman. i don't know really. i always, i always, when i first wanted er when i was at school i always wanted to join the army and then i changed my mind and then i wanted to join the police force. and then i forgot about the idea and i just drifted into something else. then it, then i saw an advert in the local paper and i thought yeah, i'll do that, i'll try and become a policeman. i sent away and passed the exams and i became a policeman, but i always wanted to become a policeman when i, from about eighteen or nineteen it's just that i drifted the wrong way. yes? what is it like in jail? what's it like in jail. i've never been in jail and i never wanna find out what it's like in jail but if you actually ever go to the police station, harlow police station, they sometimes let people up there and do tours, no one likes being left in the cell cos when the door closes it's very very small and it's very claustrophobic, and it's not very nice. so if i, i wouldn't, my answer to that is never go to jail cos it's, you're losing your freedom aren't you? you can't go down to the shops, you can't go round your mum's, you can't go to your auntie's, you're losing your freedom. and even in just the police station, in the small holding cells they have, it's not very nice. i personally would not like to be held in a c in a prison. i'm not that way inclined, i like to go for a walk and have the fresh air on me and everything. yes? where do you er keep all your, all the erm equipment that you take with you? right. i we've all got lockers, you know like you've got a locker here for your books and everything? yeah. we've all got a big long locker where we put all our different coats in and our boots and all our other equipment like a long thing i've seen it on the bill. that's it, yes, like the lockers they use on the bill, yes, that's, very similar to that, that's where, and you, and what, it's what's known as erm the locker room or the cha yeah that's, that's right, yes. your question? well do you run after people? have i run after people. yes i do. at the moment i couldn't cos i've got a bad knee but i have run after people and caught people, yes. because i'm getting a bit old i have a tendency to get out of breath. but i have run after people, yes. yes young man? why do policemen, why do policemen need dogs? why do they need dogs, because their dogs their smell. they track down drugs. the class has an answered it for you, the class has answered it. they can track people down, they're very good they're not supposed to bite you see, they're supposed to chase and bark at someone and hold them there by barking and hope right that the police will turn up. that's the idea. shh shh shh shh no you ma don't make it free for all. and because they smell along the floor. that's right,the their, their nose is very shh their nose is very sensitive and i, if someone wa if someone walks across grass, yeah? where the shoe touches the grass it crushes the grass and releases juices and smells from the grass. me and you can't smell it but the dog can. can, the dog can. cos he's got something in his nose so he can smell anything. he's got very he's very sensitive cells in his nose because, cos a dog used to be a hunting dog, and goes back to being a wolf, they used to track their prey to eat so they've still got that ability and we haven't, but a dog has, it can smell. next question, at the back. erm do you erm drive after people and stop them from driving fast? i certainly do yes, but the ma the majority of that is done by traffic police, by traffic police. we do we, the ordinary shift does that but usually that's traffic police who do it. how many people have you caught? how many people have i caught, i couldn't tell you cos i've never kept a record. i've got one friend who has written down in a diary every person he's ever re arrested, i don't do that, i just, i, i can't be bothered to write it all down. too long, waste too much time. yes? do you have to be there for a certain amount of time? that's all down if you're talking about jail, prison, that's all down to the m remember i went, talking to you about the court? that's all down to the magist court? to the courts, to the magistrates, remember that man, the judge, it's all down to him and the jury, it's not down to the police. it's wh that's everyone goes to court because it's it's down to the er ju what they call the judicial system to work it out what it is. my mother used to be in did she? good for her. well done. yes? have you any,ev , have you ever put anyone in jail before? have i ever put anyone in jail, right, when you mean jail do you mean the police station or prison? prison. prison. prison, right. to actually get someone to prison is exceptionally hard. to get what they call, big word, custodial sentence, to actually give someone a custodial sentence is exceptionally hard. i personally, in all the cases i've dealt with, which is seven and a half years, have only ever really gone to magistrates court but i've got two cases going to crown court soon, but it's exceptionally hard and to answer your question, i actually have never fou never got anyone to go to prison yet. alright? yes? do you er like are you one of those people like if you hear about a death mhm? are you one of those people who go to the house of erm if a member of the family's dead? you mean like if say, terrible thing to say, if someone in the family dies, do you mean if i'm the person who goes and tells the relatives, the mum and dad or anything like, yeah yeah. i've done that and that isn't very nice. i went, i had to tell a lady that her husband had died er about two christmases ago, two days before christmas. her husband died in a car accident and i had to go and tell his wife. it must have been before, after my birthday then. oh probably then. just before christmas then. yes? if erm a lady, if erm a wife is on fire and it was just a wife living in the house mm? erm would erm if you'd known about it would erm you go and tell the firemen or would the firemen just find out of course. theirselves? of course,i er sometimes people phone up the fire brigade and the fire brigade get to the fire first. fire first, sometimes the police, if it's a really serious fire, get there first but the real professionals when it comes to a fire are the fire brigade. so if the lady was on fire, you'd leave it basically to the fire brigade, obviously if you could help the lady, get a ladder up to the window to get her out of the room or something like that, you would do that, you would help in any way you can, but the real experts are the fire brigade so we leave all the er real technical stuff to the fire brigade. my br erm my step-brother erm lived in a flat and, and the flat got on fire and they had to climb out the window and jump out not very nice. not very nice. and the lady catched him. yeah? it's not very nice because everyone thinks a fire is flames but the really dangerous thing is smoke and you literally can't breathe in the smoke. i've been to a fire where there was a huge black cloud coming out of a, a flat that's what happened to me and it was and you couldn't get near it because the heat of the fire was so strong and the smell of the of the smoke was overpow you literally couldn't get near it and everyone had to come away. yes? well how do you know that someone's burgling something? how do you know that someone's burgled something. sometimes they phone you up. sometimes, yes. but you're talking about people who actually do it are you? yeah. right. sometimes they leave their fingerprints there so they get what's known as the scenes of crime officer or what they call like all po well like all forces but what if they've got gloves on? difficult. there might be a, there might be a security camera there that catches them coming in. there might be a witness next door. there might be footprints. there might be footprints, there could be anything, several things and the all those type of things is what helps the police to try and catch the people now what i was thinking was erm you know, what i wondered was, shall we do er a circular game and, get yourselves into a circle quickly shh shh come on, quick now. because we always do a lo we always collects words in our classes oh yeah? we're good at collected words police words shh shh. right so that's what i thought, we could s collect some police words now, alright? and we've gotta go around and you have to think of one word to do with police until we stop until we run out of them. oh i know one. police right. okay? right i'll just see who's looking smart to start. so i hope you've all thought of one word, right, if somebody else has said it before you you've gotta think quick and think of something else. right? who shall i start with? som oh p c can choose. mm mm mm mm mm you. truncheon. gun. hat. coat. boots. trousers what are those things on your shoulders? epaulettes. epaulettes, good girl. erm coats. said that. said that. erm right, car. police siren. handcuffs. handcuffs, there's a word isn't it? murderer. urgh jail. jail. er burglary. burglary. er come back to andrew shall we? nigel court. court. boots. we've had that. had that. another police word. dog. we've had that. shh tie. tie? right. a really nasty word, right officer officer, that's a good word. car keys. car keys. pad. pad. if you can't think of one, pass, alright? cos we've run out of miss i've got one. go on, back again. shh shh shh pass if you can't think of one. socks. socks. that's not really a police word is it? shield. oh a shield, yes. er that thing he's got on his the number thing. oh his number. collar numbers. well done. collar numbers. right. shirt. a shirt right, okay, but really good words now from some of the things he's told us like going to court. we've had that. right we need some more words. i know one erm hat hat, well shh shh shh shh a really good word, come on, some, some criminal words policeman eh? policeman. two two two four. oh right! skill. oh a skill, that's a good one. police station. police station, nobody's said that. right. can't hear it. gas mask gas mask. oh gas mask. judge. judge. judge, judge. any more? nicked, well that's a good word, i like that, go on. nicked, you're nicked. any more now? cos you've all twice. stole. stole. truncheon. truncheon. fire brigade. fire brigade. fireman, we're on to firemen now, what, why do policemen, what do policemen go to the houses for? they go to tell about a crime. crimes and murder. murderer. murders and we've said that. pardon? car crash. oh car crashes burglaries. burglaries. i said that. stab. stabbings we've had burglaries. deaths. the handprints and the oh handprints and fingerprints blood. urgh blood oh clues, good boy. kidnapped. kidnapped, that's a good one. guns. guns. had that. papers. oh loads of papers caught in the act! that's a good one. police car. erm david's got one. what kind of policemen are there? officers. yeah, what kind? er miss, miss. officers traffic police. traffic police er c i d c i d well done. train policemen. oh yes. yes they look after the trains. railway police they're called aren't they? oh the bill. miss i know! ah yeah! hands down, hands down because erm we've got to go and change to another class now to miss, i've got one. shh shh shh shh hands down, hands down. right. thank you very much for asking so many questions, thank you for all the words at the end, they'll come in useful. i've got one. they're not actually in a conversation but we always do that sort of thing anyway. could do couldn't you? right all sit down show me how quiet er how quietly you can sit. right. thank you very much for asking all the questions and thank you very much for working so hard for tony. thank you. right, we'll say thank you p c and thank you tony. thank you p c and tony. you're welcome and thank you thank you. and they're a nice lot aren't they p c ? not bad, there's one or two characters but on, on, on the whole they're not too bad, yeah well hard workers. they're all characters, they're great. stand up shh hey , come back. i remember saying two words go and sit down again and stand up. sit down again the lot of you. why? because i said stand up quietly. right now we've got to, i'll send andrew who's, who's a sensible boy, he can open the door quietly for you. and then you can go back and get a reading book out cos we haven't had reading say walkie-talkie yeah that's okay, that's a good, yeah you can say what, what would you say, what would you say, what is the proper word then for police what? what's the proper word for nick nicking someone as you keep saying? arrest. you arrest someone. are you allowed to say alcohol? yeah if you wanna say alcohol, yes. right. right, right yeah that's, that's okay, that's a good word, yeah. shh shh shh. right this gentleman here is tony and he's recording this lesson he's recording this lesson, okay? he wants to hear everyone use words. i'm gonna be talking, miss is gonna be talking, but you're gonna be talking. we, he wants us to hea hear the words spoken, spoken words, yeah? so he wants to hear people talk. but he doesn't wanna hear everyone have a free for all, if you've got something to say, well say it. put your hand up. yeah. well done. what are we talking about, what's the subject? is it, is it space. well yes in actual fact our topic at the moment is weather and space. weather and space. how we gonna fit that in with right you can ask aliens. but we were sort of,begin to look at aliens . what do i know about aliens? weather in other countries and that's why i think right okay then we'll talk about oh! actually, saying that, sorry, we did start talking about the f b i. the f b i, right, the f b i who er the f b i, who knows what the f b i stands for? what d wanna say goodbye? what does the f b i stand for? federal bureau of investigations. federal bureau of investigation, right, where is or where do, the f b i work? think about it and no shouting out. where do the f b i work? what country? think about it. i know. america. good lad, america. who knows where their headquarters is? where's their headquarters? new york. new york, is it? shh who's calling out? wanna say goodbye? fast becoming a pain. you can join him outside if you want. go. washington c, washington d c. close enough. do you know the actual name of the town where the headquarters is? i know . police station. no, police station! er no. hands , it's a place called quantick quantick quantick okay? erm ou the man who runs harlow police station, chief superintendent mick , went there about eight weeks ago, to the headquarters of the f b i. the f b i was set up to fight criminals in america. what is the famous boss, or the old famous boss, of the f b i? he's i know. he's, he died a little while ago. john f kennedy. john f kennedy? no no no no no. the famous boss of the f b i was, let's all say it, j edgar hoover. j edgar hoover. and he was set up to fight crime federal crime in america, right? so let's work out where the federal crime comes in. at the bottom there's america and america is divided up into states, the states of america, right? and within the states, each state, there are towns areas, whatever and villages. villag anything at all, certain areas, and they are divided up into small police forces within a state, yeah? the small police forces are covered by what's known as the state police, so you've got the town police, or the county police then you've got the state police and you've also got what's known as the highway police, the state highway police, yeah? and above them you've got the f b i which means the f b i could come to your state and they would control all the police work, but they could go to another state, whereas all the state police could only work within one state. have i explained that mhm have i explained that properly? mm. have i explained that properly one and all? yes. right, right. so there's the the top police, the f b i the state police and the local county police, yeah? you've missed the highway and, and the highway police are up there with the state police, they can go anywhere within the state, yeah? mm. f b i state police and at the bottom county police, yeah, understand that? yeah. which are you? which am i? i'm another one here down at the bottom, i'm a county police county police. because england hasn't got an f b i. it doesn't need one, there's not many crimes. america has got pardon? not many crimes in harlow, in er england. there isn't many crimes in england? not as much as america. wake up! right, there's no f b i, no f b i, there isn't a f b i in england right? there isn't an f b i in england because there isn't a state police. france have got a state police, and i've forgotten what they're called, c r s, they are what's known as the c r s and they are ri riot police and they go anywhere in the country. england hasn't got it, england hasn't got what they would call a national police force. we have got all the little ones, the county police forces. if anyone was to take on the role of the state police it would be the metropolitan police force who have got experts and if say something happened in manchester like an i r a bombers left some bombs in manchester, experts from the metropolitan police would go to manchester to help out, they're what's known as the anti-terrorist squad oh yeah. but they are still metropolitan police officers. make sense? mhm. understand that? mhm. have i explained that? everyone understand that? yes. okay then. what else do you wanna know? anything else? perhaps you could tell p c some of the things to do with the investigation that were in the programme, what, sorry go on craig, yeah? there was a fire at mr 's store and they called it arson. well done, that's a good word, when we use our little circle of words you can use that word, yeah? just the one. take over a they call it copyright infringement. copyright infringement. copyright infringement is someone they've learnt something this morning yes. copyright infringement, good one. it, that's used in what's known as fraud, yeah? the computer fraud is becoming a big business, yeah? good word. what other questions?anyone s go on then. courage there's another word for copyright infringement. what's that? bootlegging. bootlegging. bootlegging, yes. bootlegging. do you know bootlegging as well there's another one, you see the tapes in machines, yeah? someone will take where is it? there isn't one in there. someone will take a microphone to a concert and you'll hear, say a band, any band you wanna think of, say what er who shall we say? genesis. take that. take that, we'll say take that, a man sits he takes a tape in and he records the whole concert. he then got it there, he then takes that tape and plays another tape he makes a? records it all. bootleg. he makes a bootleg. right. it doesn't come out very well though all the time. no it doesn't come out all the time very well. why are you an expert on mm mm mm? no. all you've gotta do is right it's a bootleg it's a bootleg, that's it, it's a good word, bootleg. but it, but that would be a fraud because you're, you're yeah? that'd be a fraud, a kind of fraud, yeah? great word. anything else you've learnt in th on your course? bootlegging was a long time ago when er the people wasn't allowed to bootlegging's still happening now, it still goes on now, and it still causes the music industry lots to lose, lots and lots of money, lots and lots of money. any other questions? any other questions, come on think about it? what were the children doing in the programme? investigating oh yeah they were investigating investigating. that's what police officers do, they investigate crimes, they investigate crimes. the federals. what's known as the uniform branch turn up to investigate a crime, i hope you're all listening yeah, the uni er the uniform branch turn up to investigate a crime and if they find fingerprints they will get what's known as a scenes of crime officer to take the fingerprints off the wall, yeah? but they'll also get the c i d, they'll get a detective to come along and help investigate the crime, so we investigate the crimes like you did on your computer course, yeah? we do our own investigations, yeah? happy with that? mm. erm on this film i saw when they was getting the fingerprints they had this sort of like little cloth in a bag and they sort of that's right, yes. because e if you all look at your fingerprints now, you're looking at, no one else in the world has got fingerprints like you've got. they are all individual, no one 's got the same fingerprints that you've got. they're not the same, can you see there's little circles, little whirls, little loops, little arches no. yeah? you have a look, everything is different. no one in the world has got fingerprints like you've got because we are all different. right? right i think we'll have working now cos i'm drying up quickly. first word, use a good, a good police word. i know. gun. shh. gun, yeah. court. court, well done. handcuffs. handcuffs. prison. prison. pardon? drinking? drink driving, that's good enough. arson. arson. jail. jail. keys. keys. fingerprints. fingerprints. what did i call that person who comes what did i call it? shh! something i can't remember can't remember? alright then. crikey. speak up loud, you've gotta be speak up loud and clear. no. uniform. uniform. uniform. detective. detective, well done. crime. crime, well done. copyright infringement. copyright infringement. bars. bars. f i b. f i b? f b i. f b i. walkie talkie. sierra oscar? that's a call sign, sierra oscar, what does, okay then, sierra oscar, what does it stand for? i dunno, a car. what is it , a car, yeah, but why? what are they using when they call that out? sierra oscar c erm to mayday. shh shh shh shh. no no no it's a special, it's a special i know! it's a special language yeah? right what's your name? craig. craig? craig, your name is charlie romeo alpha india golf. no i'm not. what is your second name? , well how do you spell it? hold on,that is charlie oscar november yankee alpha romeo delta. that's, that's the alphabet you're using, and you're using, you said sierra oscar. so that, what they're saying is sierra stands for s, oscar stands for o. it's a way of remembering complicated a way of remembering index numbers, your name, because if someone goes to you s o it's quite easy to forget it, but if someone said sierra oscar, an hour later you'd go what was that? what was that? i can't remem oh sierra oscar, i've remembered. it's a way of re making things i knew it cos i've watched the bill. well yeah, exactly. next question? d i, d c i d c i, yeah i'll give you that one, detective chief inspector, ooh and who do you know who's a detective chief inspector? assault. ass assault, well done. arrest. arrest, well done, good word. offices. offices, yeah, we all need offices. murder. murder, good word. bootlegging. bootlegging, well done, we've all gone round i haven't oh! go on, a word from you. jacket. jasper carrott, he's supposed to shh shh. fingerprints did they? fingerprints, yeah. they're not walkie talkies, they're a radio. we've got two kinds of radio, we have one radio we carry ourselves yeah. which is for local and one in the car which is county wide, which can cover the whole of essex, yeah? not on them little boxes. not on them little ones, no, you have to have special adaptors to make those little ones go everywhere. yes? hold on a second shh. if you, if you arrest someone for murder would you say suspicion of first degree murder? no. right that's, that's, you see you're getting the american stuff but when you're arrested you are always arrested on suspicion because in this country you are innocent until a cou a court proves you're i er guilty, yeah? i can't arrest you and say guilty cos you have to go to court, so you would always be arrested on suspicion of murder. cos if you went to court and you was innocent and you got off, that's it. the police only enforce the law, they can't make the law work, the people who make the law work are the judiciary. i said, did i say that right? judiciary, yeah, big word of the day, judiciary. you are always arrested on suspicion, a suspicion of something, yeah? and someone will say i'm arresting you on suspicion of murder erm if you see the murder happen can you say erm that you are guilty? no. i can give evidence that i s right for, say, we'll go back to his, his er idea, suspicion of murder, i can say i saw him take a hammer and whack him, split his head open, he dropped down dead. i could give evidence on that, yeah? but i still can't make him guilty. only a judge and a jury can make him guilty. that's why police officers have to go to magistrate's courts, and crown courts, to give evidence. but it is the magistrate or, or a er a crown court judge and jury who make him guilty. i can only give evidence and if they don't believe my evidence, he's innocent. if they believe mine evidence, he's guilty. yeah? what? erm in america i think it is erm they carry them black th they're black erm things poles. they carry around w they carry around with them. truncheon. like a truncheon? yeah. right they're called a pacifier. they're, they're like a long stick with a handle on them aren't they? yeah. there is an i there is an idea afoot to bring them to this country, to let policemen, cos the policeman's truncheon is only short use them someone has to be close but these pacifiers can be a offensive weapon and a defensive weapon. yeah? but that's gonna take about five or six years to come to frui fruition because all the er chief constables are talking about it and if anything works slowly it's chief constables. they're called a pacifier and you can sort of like use them to strike and to defend yourself with them yeah? are you allowed to use bulletproof jackets. are you allowed to use bulletproof jackets, yes. i wouldn't use a bulletproof, well in certain circumstances i might, but i'm not trained to carry a firearm so i wouldn't use a i, hopefully, i won't get selected to go into a house where i need to wear a bulletproof uniform. you have to go on special courses to carry guns what the army? in this no it's a special, it's a different tactic. in the army they fire bullets and they have their big powerful bullets and the idea is that the bullet comes through her, travels across, goes through her and goes into him so there's one, two, three casualties so it will take four people to carry her, four people to carry her, four people to carry him, that is sixteen, that is, altogether, twelve plus three, fifteen people we've taken out of the battle, yeah? whereas a police bullets they wanna hit her and stay in here. because what's the point of hitting her, coming through her, travelling half a mile you might hit another and kill a innocent person. and we don't want that to happen, and we have different kinds of bullets that hit her and stay there. oh like them er put out ones what, like the darts? totally different. totally different. we just want it to stay there, different calibre, different power and different altogether. we don't, we just want the guilty person shot, we don't want the guilty person shot, come out hit the innocent person. yeah? cos we would be in trouble. yeah? agree? have they just got colt revolvers? well you're watching the americans again. you've been watching the americans, they, cos the americans, why do american police officers carry guns? self defence. no. self defence, but there is something important that allows american police officers to carry their guns it's not crime, it's got nothing to do with crime, it's got nothing to do with cowboys and indians it's got nothing to do with self defence. cos you can, cos er other people can buy guns in america. he has his moments. yeah! he has his moments doesn't he? yes there is something ticking away in there. right. under the c under the constitution of america, big word, constitution of america, it is written into the constitution of america all, i think it goes, all militia men militia men and men can bear arms for their country which basically reads they can defend their country, they can have a gun in their house to defend their country. but what it meant is it got read, written into the constitution, it meant that everyone can buy a gun. so if everyone's got a gun what even a ten year old kid? well we've, think about it, common sense. the policeman's gotta carry the gun because if everyone else in the country has a gun, the policeman needs a gun. yeah? makes sense. because it's written into the constitution that all men can bear arms to defend the country. so everyone goes out, buys a gun and when a policeman says why have you got that gun? er if there's a war i'm gonna defend my country with that gun. it's a load of rubbish but everyone does it, everyone carries a gun. but there was, but each state has different legislation, yeah? each state has, in some states you can be eighteen and carry a gun but in another state you've gotta be twenty one, they make all different laws. that's why it's very very hard to get rid of the guns in america, cos there's so many about. yeah? do they just carry hand guns? they can carry hand guns, they can carry rifles they can machine guns. machine guns cos think about it. be, use common sense, you're not er you're not that daft to say bazookas. yeah? and who, who has seen certain films where someone just walks into it, shows his driving licence and he buys a gun, yeah? no, i've seen terminator, he does. i knew he was gonna say i knew you was gonna get terminator in the convers , he said it out there didn't he? sooner or later he's gonna get terminator in the conversation. yeah. shh shh. shh shh. yes okay then use, use a bad, use a bad example, yes did you see terminator when arnold schwarzeneger walks into the shop , yeah? did you see him bullet out and k kills a man. yeah, he, he it was literally b literally like going up to the shop and buying a newspaper. all he has to do is show he's over a certain age can prove who he is, you can buy a gun. it is that easy. you just buy a machine gun. that is the reason, that is why, the reason why all police officers in america carry guns. it's not that they need them, it's because they know everyone else has got them. yeah? they need and here's, here's, hold on a minute here's, here's something else here's a statistic, in america in america, when a policeman, every time a policeman fires his gun and i'm not talking about one or two i'm talking everyone, it's a statistic, you all know what statistics is i hope? statistics. every time a policeman in america, every four times a policeman in america, that could be a policeman in new york, a policeman in los angeles, a policeman in boston and a policeman in seattle yeah? or chicago. within well whatever, yeah. right? shh. of those four usually shoots the person they er the person they shoot, yeah? the person they're after shooting. the other punch him. you say that you say that but can i punch you? yeah. hold on a second here's one, can i punch you? think about it,com are you with us? cooee! are you with can i punch you, can i punch you? no. can i punch miss? yeah. yeah. i can punch miss can i? shh shh shh think about it. hold on, no no no, calm down. think about it. need to get through me first. eh? can i do it? think about it, it's a game we're playing, think about it. yeah? can i go up and punch miss? yeah. no. yes. yes. no. who says yes? who says yes? who says no? you're both right and you're both wrong. because, because she's done nothing. shh shh. keep going, keep going, you're a his moments doesn't he? he does have moments. shh. she's done nothing, she's done nothing to hurt you. keep going. some reason. keep, shh shh shh, keep going. she's not guilty. you're, you're on the right lines, you're on the right lines. she has done? nothing nothing wrong. yeah. right, if she's done nothing wrong if er if she's done nothing shh can you answer this question? oh right. right. if she's done nothing wrong, right? and i walk up and punch her what, what, what have i done, think about it, what have i done? think about it. assault. think about it. without shouting out, you're right, i've assaulted her. was that assault on her justified? she's done, she's though? shh shh, she's done nothing, she's done nothing wrong and i've assaulted her was the assault justified? she's done nothing wrong. no. she is it justified? no. right. fair enough. i, when i ass when a policeman assaults someone it has got to be justified. yes, right then, same thing miss comes at me with a knife and she attempts to stab me and she means it, she wants to stab me and she means it so you can shh shh shh. i then defend myself and assault miss, i assault miss, yeah? she's trying her hardest to stab me, and i assault her. is the assault justified? yes. who agrees with him? yes. me. you're right, yeah, it has to be justified. if i just walk across, you're sitting there, and just kick someone is it justified? no. i've got no right to do it, i break the law like anyone else. yeah? i break the law like anyone else. you can be put in jail. i can be put in jail, yeah. exactly the same. when i assault someone it has to be justified. yeah? pardon? right. let's go one rou round again, we've had enough words, we'll go the other way good police word, go police dog. police dog. you've gotta speak up loud. yeah. uniform. jerseys. body. police lady. lock. erm erm number. account. sierra oscar. good word. police horse. good girl, yeah, guilty. go again? guns. bootlegging. police car. court. policeman. jail. prisoner. court. county police. homicide. what's a homicide? what is it? i knew you'd ask me that . okay then, shh shh shh. hold on a second, she's used the word homicide i know what that is. shh shh shh shh it's th that is the correct word for what word? burglary. shh shh shh no. homicide. homicide is the proper word for the word i want one of you to come up with. shh shh shh. it starts with m. murder. murder. the proper word is homicide. alright? where were we? we've got to do this. we've finished. we've got to do this. law enforcement. law enforcement, what a good way to end the conversation. right if i can get the video there is a video somewhere in the police station that shows a lot of different police forces, but it's finding it. it may be too old it's, i think it's about twenty years old and we may not be able to show it to you. but if i can find it i've got a video that's over twenty years old. i'll bring it back, but otherwise good word. so right, the one thing, without calling out, if i assault someone, and that is punch them,kich kick them, hit them, do anything murder them. shh! there's about five people you can get really to dislike in this class isn't there? right. if i assault someone and it is not justified, not justified, can i be arrested? yes. oh i'm impressed. you've actually learnt something, hands down hands down. it's three o'clock. yeah well we're gonna stay here cos we've got quarter of an hour and if you want to listen to this that's fine, but if you wanna carry on yes alright. whatever you want to do, but it's not worth doing anything else other than we're going to play a few games but they're yes! word games. okay ? miss we haven't done our spelling test. oh well we could have a spelling test instead. no right can you just move back a little bit more so i can actually right facing this way simon can you turn round as well please, robert right the first game very easy, i'm going to point to somebody, we're going to go through the alphabet, they're going to give me the name of an animal. oh. when we get to the ones that we say are awkward alright, we'll er let you think of erm a way out, okay? mm we've come across it before and there's sometimes there is a little way out so let's see if you can just think of it, so let's start with craig and we'll go anti-clockwise. so starting with a er animal. right, do we accept that? no. yeah. yeah. no. not an animal er who, well we can't have everybody shouting out. i've got one. who accepts animal? who thinks that's a good answer? it could be any animal. who does not accept it? right it could be any animals. okay we'll start again with craig and a. er erm i've got one miss. anteater we've given you two goes, turn round. miss, miss, miss turn round. no we're still on a really, we haven't got one for a yet. right, shh! alli alligator. right. er shush we need to be very quiet, we don't want bull. bull, right. cat. cat. erm dog. dog. elephant. elephant. i know! hurry up otherwise we have to turn you round. no? erm i i indian elephant. that's what i said, excellent, that's a crafty way of getting out of it, good. j right, too long jaguar turn round. oh j, j erm i know one. i want the rest of you thinking. jaguar. good girl. er elephant. er well try again. she got one, we're looking at you hazel. oh er koala. yes, right, koala. l. l. er leopard you get lots of help from everybody else. monkey. oh! n, n. i know it. turn round, come on. good girl. what did she say? nice cat. erm penguin. koala bear. you can go on to r alright, cos we've actually shh. shh. can we have everybody sitting up peter cos rabbit. good girl. snake. right. t tarantula. an animal, turn round. u. er shh i know miss, a teddy bear. james , james don't know. i think you'd better go next door, you've been warned enough this afternoon. i know miss. unicorn. good boy. ah i was gonna say unicorn. v? v, i know. a very good girl . erm good. er i don't know if i can give xylophone cat, it's a good erm a cat that can play a xylophone . x-ray erm fish. x-ray fish, very good, okay. what do you mean by that? there's a fish called an x-ray fish. yeah i know er sit up cos we're lounging around and it's still not time yet. right, this time it's going to be carrying on from, where did we get to x y y, yes. keep going then till we finish the alphabet then we'll do food. yellow ostrich. good. z, zebra. right, food we're on to now my favourite, good. erm bolognaise. i'm out miss. oh right. you're out? you should be turned round, that would help us. hannah, we're on c. c erm i know! er er celery. rick! out! chinese. good girl. dog food. we'll give you another chance, i don't think we can actually, well shh shh shh shh. think, think of something else. hurry up otherwise there isn't one. right, turn round. yes there is. d, are you out are you ? if i hear anybody else call out they can go next door. where are we up to? f. no she's out and she's out. oh, fish. jam. g! oh you're out. oh, what are we doing? g g oh g. erm golden egg. right. fish. a heavy fish i'd of said. alright we'll be kind to you, h i shh right, you need to hurry up. ink. oh ink. you can't eat ink. right too long. i we're on. ice. ice. out. nathan will you sit up so i can see whether you're in or out. in. right, j. miss can we come back in? j jam. right, natalie, k. erm shh, shh shh. i'm asking natalie at the moment. good girl. sorry? i know! erm too long. lemon. good girl. simon no, you're out. mrs jamie's out and he's not james, shh, i'm trying to listen to steven. hurry up otherwise you're out. erm no, too long. matthew's out, hannah it's you. nuts. good girl. orange. good girl. i'm out. you're out are you? right erm q too long gherkin. quail, yes you can eat, yeah, quail. what did she say? quail. right,you in? yeah. good girl. erm tea. tea yes, craig are you out? you we're on to. right you're out. hannah, u erm what's she on? er no, hazel? u erm ucky stuff? ucky stuff, no. no that's there isn't. there is. no i can't hear. shh shh. u, u. no. right we'll keep going round till somebody's got a u. i know is everybody out then? yogurt. i got one miss. everybody out? yogurt. that's y. everybody close in again. right, now, i don't want anybody calling out, listen very carefully, you two boys move back abby. what? you need to listen very carefully. you do not call out, you do not lay around on the floor. if you get the right answer you may go and get dressed and do not d ti disappear until the bell goes. dressed. and put your shoes on, get your coat er miss 's got a few bits for people there so could you make sure they get there's some football letters to be given out i think . so nobody actually goes until the bell goes, but you need to be listening matthew because you don't know what you've got to take to the party yet. oh, ah, ooh! right. so i am going to go this way round, right, and i'm going to take some doughnuts. i'm going to a party and i'm going to take a monkey. you can't go. i'm going to a party and i'm gonna take a you can't go. i'm going to the party and i'm gonna take some monkey nuts. you can't go. i'm going to the party and i'm gonna take an elephant. you can't go. going to the party and i'm going to take an apple. you can't go. a tick-tock. you can't go. erm er too long i'm gonna take a veronica. a what? veronica. a veronica? yeah, it's a flower. oh i thought you said a running car then. igloo an igloo, no. knickers. knickers, no. i'm going to the party and i'm gonna take ice. no. er i'm going to the party and i'm going to take ice cream. no. i'm going to the party and i'm going to take an apple. no. i'm going to the party and i'm gonna take a i know what it is. cat. no. i'm going to the party and i'm gonna take a nut. no. a goat. no. gonna take er knife. no. a lemon. no. you can come back in a minute and see if it's what you think. i know what it is. a apple? no. ice cream. no. no. no. nuts? no. i shall take some dates. i'm going to the party, i'm gonna take some no. i'm going to the party and i'm gonna take take care now. no. an elephant? no. shh shh. sorry? elephant, no. teeth. teeth? no. an ostrich, no. an orange. an orange, no. erm an elephant. no. no. take an elephant. an elephant, no. no. igloo. no. ice? no. apple? no. no. apple. no. i said apple. i mean elephant. miss i mean elephant. no? right, no don't t don't tell them. but i thi if it's what i think it is yes? then i re erm i think that er let's see if you think you know what it is. what would steven take? erm an elephant? no. so you were lucky, so you don't know. right. what did she say miss? i'm gonna take erm i'm gonna take my dentist. oh i know what it is! shh a monkey. a monkey, no. i'm going to the party and i'm gonna take no. i'm going to the party and i'm gonna take a hat. you can go. what she say? oh! so what you gonna take? alphabet. alphabet, no. i'm gonna take a zebra. zebra, no. er lemon. lemon, no. lemon. no . it's worth trying, could, just because she can't take a lemon it doesn't mean you can't take a lemon, i know it. shh. apple. apple, no. rabbit. rabbit, no. igloo. no. what is it hannah? i know, i know what it is. a cat. no. it's a chicken. you can go. is it erm yes jamie, excellent, you can have a point for your team. elephant. no. right we're going to pick people then who are sitting up nice which won't be all those people that crawled in front of me. hazel, you may go and oh that! what it actually was was the, the initial of the person sitting next to you. oh! if i get him to go in there and do a bit of plaster on mm eh?what i was thinking of doing was getting a, have a go aye you know builders merchant, pick up some plaster if its a wet day and start doing some plastering in there yeah, well it looks through erm need to use it soon isn't it? i well i reckon, the trouble is, it depends on how things go in the next couple of weeks you can the opposite, you can start as many within the original firms anybody's yeah that's right see i was thinking this was gonna cost a lot, a lot of money to put the phone's in, but its not, because you just put one line in and then put different bits up the line don't you? no no they come in, in separate lines but you cut it you charge pair, you'll charge pair in here, its not just one line with four connections, they charge you per phone i was talking to desmond about it and he reckons that once you've got your line you can muck about and no put quite a few lines in there no, dunne work like that oh you can use the same, you can use the same number alright? mm eh, the same number on four lines, but if were want to go out four people were to phone in at the one time oh of course yeah do you see what i mean? i see what you mean , yeah of course you do you've got to have four separate lines yeah exactly the same sort of thing with the front room one and the kitchen one you just did that's right yeah right, and then once your in, you can put, you can put in as many extensions up as you want yes but what i'm talking about dear, probably in i'm talking you aren't we?, i'm talking about cord and five lines here for the minute aye and i'm talking about bringing in talking about bringing in four or five lines down there, right? mm, mm and there's not any reason why once your in you canne put another couple of lines in, and you can even put a couple of lines in on a different number if you want mm but still have to four phone in for the same purpose, are you with me? mm you could run them all end up with numbers mm but really i've got to talk to somebody, i've got to talk to somebody for their british telecom british telecom about it because, yes that's true, the but there's a right time and a wrong time for doing it, see cos basically if you were getting the money, the phone calls that were, that were done a since christmas right, i'm not sure how the bill runs, it probably runs december, january, february er i think they run a quarter on the phone bill, and its a three month period that's right, were gonna get a phone bill soon so i'll be getting that phone bill within the next fortnight, right, but bear in mind june june and december we weren't really doing anything for three weeks yeah right, and its only the last couple of weeks that we've really picked up yeah, hopefully the business coming in of, of this month because of the fact that the, the volume of business bound to be higher mm right alright? and then what you do is, if you run a four phones, four or five phones through up top, for the next quarter, right mm be getting a result if you stepped in with another four phones, new lines, you'd have the use of these four lines for three month, to generate business before you get out with first phone bill on them, right so that you could drop er the lines here if you wanted, at er, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether you've got one line or whether you've got a hundred lines mm if you've got one line and its costing you money yeah, yeah a hundred lines losing money is going to cost you a lot of money yeah its all wrong if you've got one line making you money and you've got a hundred lines, a hundred lines is gonna make you a hundred times more, do, do you see what i mean? yeah your lines are either working and making you money or there working and costing you money, and the supervisor's job is to make sure that whoever's working these phone's is getting a result mm right the more phone's used is somebody that is capable of making for you yeah right, now what you've got to judge at the end of the day, now lets say for instance that you've put in six lines six lines, right and you only wanted to use two of them all you've got a number for is the rental charge isn't it? mm so you only pick up your gain and drop your gain back mm right, so if i'm carrying six at the minute, you've got to say to yourself its stupid having six here then only having four up there and that place is twice the size yeah, what's it cost to put a line in?, its about a hundred pound now you see, if you put a line it costs you about a hundred a thirty quid now i think, but according to what they tell me, once a line has been in for a year if you put a line in, you've got to pay the first year, its gotta be in for a year, if you have it taken out before the year, you'll still be due for the rental on it mm as far as i can gather, i don't know, i'd imagine where a line has a minimum period of three months rental mm right, and another thing is whether we want phone's, because all these phone's are rented the actual phone's yeah right, they haven't nee got spare four phone's yeah you can pick up phone's that cheap these days, probably for about fifteen quid for er, have a decent phone yeah, right and there why, why, i mean i'm not saying, at the end of the day its all taxed up towards you making money mm now ideally what i'd like to do is to have a chat with somebody, a cos we could do with these phones, of like, i don't know yet, exactly how it works, but, but the one you've got the headphones on that's right, that'll be a much better system to work mm but i don't think telecom's up to dating things, telecom keeps rabbitting on about how clever they are at doing this mm that and the next thing and that and mercury's no nearer mercury's no nearer see mm erm, quite frankly i'm looking to have something like probably a, that's twelve, sixteen phones working this thing next year mm there's no any reason why you shouldn't eh? you work out how much business you'll be doing with sixteen phones oh yeah, i know what your saying bob i mean were working with five at the minute, we'll go to that place and double it up to say ten and by this time next, next year there's not any reason why it shouldn't be more to sixteen mm and also i'll just go and check this is alright? go on then ah i don't know whether you want me to chat on about that yeah talk to it about, in general terms right that depends on how general you're talking about, does er, eh so that gives you an idea there, when i was working with them mm here are my targets for the period, right? mm and that's percentages and everything can i have a look? aye have a look, while you're doing that i'll have a look at what bits and pieces see if i talk to you for a minute about these right mm somebody's going to have to spend a bit of time with them over the week about the presume i'm gonna have the time that's right, it's and it might be better for me to do it, see you've got a there's various things you can talk to them about, and all you do is, all you're looking for is some key words to motivate them, right eh er to a certain extent you want, you want to assume from the start that they don't have a clue what they're doing mm right, now, i mean that's the basis that i start with june excuse me, now that's the basis you said didn't we? everybody that starts everybody, now you've also got to accept the high percentage of having nay got a clue, eh what they're doing, even after a week or a couple of weeks and it shouldn't er be here, but if you get somebody, nice er michelle or cathy, eh, or eh adel yeah now they can only push you, they can use a certain amount of their own imagination, right, but they cannot really push your information unless it's been fed to them, so somebody's, somebody's got it, do you follow me? go and lay it in there mm because at the end of the day other who come in and start are gonna listen and see what they do that's right so the more strength you've got in it, that, that you basically, eh, the more, you know, the better the result you're going to get now i think it's, no i don't think so so you're gonna have to concentrate on, on the actual selling selling and getting a result on that you see i've covered a lot of stuff for you on that, i've covered quite a bit with you on, er product knowledge, now would you say that you're reasonably together there and where you want to be on product knowledge? not too bad, yeah right, so i mean obviously if there's anything that comes up as you go along i've gotta be able to you know you and i, i'll just chat it through, but when it comes to things like er me talk to you, sales talk to you for instance about a comparative question, you wouldn't know what i was talking about would you? no cos i've never i've never covered things like comparative questions, when i talk to you about close and, you know basically what i'm talking to you about mm cos you know roughly what close are about and you know how to close, but that, let's imagine for the sake of the discussion, that there's a hundred different ways of closing, right, and if there's a hundred different ways of close closing there's bound to be thousands of variations on each close, you see what i'm saying to you? mm so there's a lot of scope, by, in other words, if you take a multiple, if you did, if you know four closes and you only use two, you might get away with it mm if you know eight and you use four, again you're talking numbers see mm everything basically comes down to numbers, er see, when i was talking to you earlier about about canvassing, right, i said basically you work on key words right now you don't need you, one, one of the things that i talked to you about canvassing is that if you notice the difference between a good canvass and a bad canvass, at least we didn't in fact activity sort of work to do in it, now if you take a, take a activ activity as being, being a key word and you discuss activity with them, right, you can then look at, at activity right as a variation on activity as there is on to action, right, now sit and do my script and talking to a customer, right, and mouthing and mouthing and mouthing and mouthing and saying your bit to a customer, you've got to sound like a parrot, now i know the way you canvass, the centre of action between you and the cu and the punter, do you see what i mean? yeah right, now a lot of them don't interact with the customer, a lot of them don't even let the customer to think that the customer's not allowed to, they're frightened in case their customer opens their mouth and says no mm right, this is exactly the same we're selling isn't it? it's a case of interacting with a, with a that's right, yeah right, now if you don't interact right you're not gonna get a result and if the customer does not interact with you, then you're not gonna get a result, right, now if you assume that as you're working your way through that appointment that your enthusiasm is passing across to the customer or anybody else who is in the room, right, right, but through that interaction right you're working towards a result, now if you go and come out of that office, about his, with a result, you'll know you'll know what you're getting next week or next month you gotta i mean the customer's gotta be at the well i know that, yeah there and then, now if we're talking about closing for a minute, right let me make you one up to objections, i'm not prepared to give you a decision tonight, what would you say to them on that? come on just go just to for a minute i dunno you, yeah , you just sort of gotta say ob obviously you want to think about it, obviously it's, you know it's a lot of money, you know, but are you happy with the window, is it, you know, is it the sort of style of the win , you know, is it the sort of style of the window, we, we, i dunno, we agreed on this sort of style, is it the, you know, the sort of style that goes, goes with it, go through sort of one or two what and find out what, what it is they really want to think about right , well let's just think for a minute exactly what you just said, can you repeat to me roughly what you've just said? yeah find out, i mean exactly sort of trying to find out exactly what it is that they want to think about, suggest, you know mm suggest that you've got another appointment in the area mm suggest that you'd like to think about it, suggest that you would pop back within an hour, two hours right, but let's say that you're not prepared to pop back, let's say that you're sitting there and you've got from that point, you want, you no want to go to the house, right, now you're not you're not gonna treat as a twenty minute call back, let's kill that for a minute mm right, now there is a precise and an exact way of working your way through it, right so maybe while use my words right, they might not be the same as yours but they will be roughly what you said a minute ago, right, what was your words, some of it? yeah, i've been trying to find out what obviously obviously yeah in other words you agree with the customer, right, now take my words, you wanna think it over, right, we're not prepared to give you a decision tonight, eh, now i'd say something like,well that's understandable, and we've gone through as many things and debt this evening as we probably need to go through, don't you agree? or words to that effect, right, and i realize that you have to think, think carefully in order to make the right choice, because it's gotta be right for you and it's also gotta be right for the property, alright? but just er, you know, clarify my thinking on it, what exactly is it that you feel you want to think about? the money well, give me a bit of space for it mm, alright just exactly what it is you want to think about mm, mm right, cos they'll not likely to say the money, they'll just sit and look at you, right, and anyway you wanna find out exactly what their problem is, so before they even get the chance to say the money, you say to them, just erm, you know, just er make it clear to me what is it that you want to think about, is it the design of the windows? is it the colour of the windows? is it the cost? is it this, is it that, is it the next thing and that's where you want to get them, cos they'll tell you what it is and you've got to, is it them, what is it? is it this, is it that, is it the next thing until they're prepared to tell you what it is, that's the way you ask them, cos they'll no volunteer what it is, cos what you're looking for is a final objection for them, right now you say oh that's a load of rubbish that does nay what, but how can you sit and study that and you learn how to use it customers, right, on the objection which is the hardest objection for any sales person to deal with, you know yourself mm that is the hardest objection you can get, right, we're not prepared to give you the decision on the night, i wanna think it over, it's the same objection, right mm well that's quite understandable and we're talking here about four thousand pounds, it's a lot of money to anybody isn't it? right, but we have covered most things that's ev , i don't know if i've actually missed anything out, right but just to clarify my thinking what is it you do actually want to think about, is it the the colour, is it what glass you want in the bathroom? is it the choice of handles? right, and you get them to something that you can deal with, because the one thing you cannot deal with right, we want to think it over, it isn't matter where you take them to, right whether it's the bathroom window, whether it's the one in do you see what i mean? mm all you're doing is taking them from the objection, which is, well, we're not prepared to give a decision, take them from that objection to where you want them do it with me, can you do it? yes go on, have a go alright, right i understand exactly what you're saying pauline, right the only thing is the wife and i have thought about it and we're just not prepared to, you know what i mean, we're gonna have to take a couple of days, because we wanna think it over mm, yeah, i can't do it with you i'm sorry, i can't use it with you, i get the general, what you mean that is it, you know is it with the style i got your stock see , i've got your stock, you're either gonna shut your case or you're going to the, you're going to go to the house or you're going have to move me from that objection that i've hit you with, then the objection that you're comfortable with, now that's what closes are about, it's dancing people from one objection to another, let me put you on another objection then, seeing as you're not too happy with that then no i get, what i you understand the process? yeah, yeah take people to objections, take them to where you want them to be and bear in mind you're always looking for an objection yeah right, another thing, we wanna get more quotes, right mm you're the first person we've seen, right, how you gonna deal with that? well obviously want, you know, the best possible price and that, you know, want the best quality windows for us erm yeah go on if you haven't already shown them a window alright go on, you know go on and tell them the strengths of the window alright, okay and er obviously i want to sort of give you the best possible price yeah so, you, if you, we can even sort of go through your figures and hopefully make the price that we, you know, we show better or yeah, i like that and we er sort of use you know key members in the area that we've done work for okay erm and how we do compare to other companies erm mm i'm not very good at sitting doing this face to face but right , but what i'm trying to say is that you can dance them to them and by the way when are you thinking of having it done mm right cos then you're taking them away from the fact that you want other quotes right, they'll say to you oh we weren't thinking of doing it actually until the winter, right and then you can say to them well let me just say that by placing your order in now we can put your installation in hand, right, basically at today's prices, right, on an extended delivery, right, and you can still qualify for a special offer, right mm and that means that we can sub you via sub measures than others in the area, right, and instal it before the weather gets too cold, and the price that's on the contract will be the total amount you have to pay or something like that mm right, now i'm trying to say to you is, that if, if you write, you write all these things down, you'll find that one thing won't react with another, you know we were talking about interacting mm right, you'll gather a bit of string, i'm not saying you'll use the words i'm using, but the theme, do you see the theme that i'm talking about, about moving people and yeah dancing them a wee bit more, the more knowledge you've got yeah the more you can take them to where you want them, do you understand what i'm saying to you? yeah , i mean i, i did er, you there's no offend that i can cover with you, i'm just having a wee chat with you on it in general terms on it, but i mean i could fill pages and pages i'm not , i do it on bits and pieces i mean i do it sort of a bit naturally, i mean if you, you know that what, the delvine hotel, i mean i sort of went in and i dunno sort of part way in i sort of said can i ask you if, you know, you've had your other quotes and he sort of said yes we're gonna sit down tonight and make our minds up that's right er and i sort of, i thought well you know, i mean, i sort of went of that erm and i, i showed him a window, showed him a corner section erm, i didn't ask, i said i can't remember if your wife sort of erm, if your sister said it was the gold or the white handles mm er and obviously the bathroom and that i, i did it in me own sort of way that's right i know, but see this is, you see this is the point i'm trying to make to you, you can quite happily do it in your own way, but the problem is you don't know what you're doing, right, and, and if you actually knew what you were doing and well aware of what you're doing you would do it a hundred times better and you would do it all the time, right mm i mean basically you say the bloke says we're going to sit down and make a decision tonight mm you can accept that couldn't you? just the same as you can accept the fact that somebody says to you that i cannot really afford your windows, right, just the same as when you first speak to them on the phone, you can say oh sorry, sorry to bother you and put the phone down because it said you in the first place, but if that's his final objection, the fact that he's gonna make a decision tonight somebody that's really good at their job that was in there would sell that deal then, they wouldn't wait till tonight that's what i did, didn't i? that's what i'm saying, right, now, what i'm saying is there's a, that, that, is, there's, there's, there's, there's things, there's things, there's guides to be able to do that, right, and the guide is there's certain things you do and certain things you don't do, because what you do basically is that you close him on his final objection which is what you're just saying you did, right, but you close him on his final objection, how did you manage to close him on his final objection? because you listened to what he was saying to you, now you might not believe it but the number of people that don't listen to what customers are saying to them, you follow me? they're half listening and they're half thinking about what they're gonna say mm and none of you are, don't know what i'm saying to you right yeah fair enough so you close him on his final objection, you listen, you then sell him his objection, right, you sell him his objection, right, you confirm his answer, right, whatever he says to you and his answer you actually confirm it back to him, you don't interrupt him, right, you don't guess where he's at, right and basically if work through a system you'll get on there, now for me to be able to, to, to, what i've just said to you is a load of garbage, but if i was sitting i was sitting actually go through each one of these steps and that's what you term as a closing sequence, you see what i mean? there is a closing sequence now the reason that you were able to close in the manner that you did with that bloke is a natural ability, but if i've said to you to teach somebody else it you would say i cannot do it, but i can't teach somebody else, because you're not actually aware of the sequence that you're working, can you see what i'm saying to you? yeah now that comes back to the question is, are salesman born or are they made? right were you born a sales person? no, but i think you're moulded, but you have obviously that's right intelligent a certain amount of intuition and aye, but you could of quite happily of gone through your life if you hadn't of seen that advert with the sell any mm and had you of gone to the wrong company, right i would of been put right off it straight away in my life that's right see we've talked, we've spoken about all the form closes before in the past, we've spoken about a sumter closes, i mean you know what i mean by a sumter close, don't you? whereby you're sitting with a customer and you've assumed that he's bought yeah, what i'm, what i'm a bit erm i mean i'm just having a general chat with you yeah and everything, cos some people i'm gonna have to go through the whole what i feel like that lot one by one, mm what i feel i do i do lack is i think i, i, i sort of communicate well with the, with the people, i think i cover the window and stones right i think i cover all that very well right but i'm, i'm a bit weak on what direction to go on, on their closes? yeah, i mean alright let me ask you something then, off the top of your head how many closes could you put a name to? well i don't know you know what the name we've used come on then how many, er just i dunno there's sort of an order form for closing them you've got an order, try and, try and, what you should do is, you see some time we should sit and list them, right, you know you've got an order form closed call back, right, they're going to the toilet want it closed yeah right, what other closes can you think on? well i don't know the proper name for them, but i mean it's well i'll tell you one or two then, right mm you've got an order form closed, right you've got a sumter closed, where you assume that the customer's buying cos he's been giving you buying signals, you're hoping yeah he's been getting the buying signals right, you can close them on alternative choice, right, which do you prefer? right, do you prefer the slim line? do you prefer to put, do you, do you prefer the narrow gap or the wider gap? right and he says the wider gap, so you write it on the order form, right, it's part of the order form close mm right, what vent depths do you want? if we say, say twenty five percent, right mind you, you know these that most people have about a third to two thirds right mm if he says a third, write it on the order form, do you see what i mean the order form closing? yeah probably laugh at me pardon? probably laugh a bit at that well i mean i'm only trying to get you to pick to pick it up one wee thing from every time i said, do have a chat with you, that's what we always say, i'm not expecting you to pick up anything else i've said to you tonight cos i'm only talking to you in general terms, but if you pick up one wee thing, right, story close mm you can close on a story, now you're bound to tell stories pauline yeah, ha , i, i, i do yeah i'm just trying to make you aware of what you're dealing when you're out there with the people's yeah you see what i'm saying to you? yeah right i mean i do that with a, you know when i'm sort of on about a long delivery talk about that's right that you know he's a retired gentleman alright basically and they budget towards it i see and that sort of thing now i've not given you a lot of chance to speak because you said you don't want to go and to, but i want yeah to cover a wee bit of ground here, i'm just trying to make a point to you about how many closes you're probably not aware for the minute, these are only a few of them, right, similar situation close, right, lost sale close, right the didn't i cover that close what do you mean by lost sale close? well i'll be, i'm not going to go into it, that's a close on itself, just like the first one that i, everyone has got a sequence mm you follow me? but they're all, they're all a variation on a theme, but if you, you know what i mean, if you've got the closes in your head you can press buttons mm you follow me, now when i say to you story book stay, eh er, i say your story close, right away you said i've done that mm you know what i mean, if i say a similar situation close, right mm you'll probably say well that is doesn't er quite ring a bell, because you've never used it and you cannot use it until i tell you what it is mm do you see what i mean, right, sit and re-question close, right you can close them on ee do you want to include the extra window for two hundred pound, you follow me you've hit them with a price you want to close them, right and you sit and do the paperwork and you just say to them do you want me to include the extra window for two hundred pounds because you've already said to them you, you give an extra, do you follow me? you've set them up mm right with an extra window, whatever about the money, like mrs what's her name, so you've nearly closed her on the conservatory you do all the paper, your order close form on the conservatory and you say to her, right, cos you're working your sums out, do you want me to include the extra window for two hundred pounds? mm if she says yes, she's bought mm do you see, do you understand the basis on what you're saying on that then? yeah these things we need to go in, right i mean i did that, i mean it, it, er, er, at exmouth when they all measured er, they had an extra window like and i sort of you know, do you want, you know if somebody says you don't wanna be rushed, right, that's what you've gotta say to them that's just what that old dear was saying the other day, right you certainly understand that, right, you agree with them, first thing you do you always agree with them, right and then you've just got the same sequence as i want to think about it, but just sort of make it clear, i mean what is it they actually, you know, frightened of being rushed into? mm i mean when the order form is closing, you're closing things like, do you want white handles? you follow me, ask them right then, i'm trying to get your head on er, on, on er how the form close see mm without actually dealing with as and an order close, if i can i'll cover the multitude of things, right now what would you say if somebody said i wanna look at aluminium windows i want to what? i want to look at your aluminium windows, let's say we didn't do them right tell me what you would say i don't know, i'm not, my head's not on it, anyway that's the kind of things that mm good, i mean that's not so appropriate these days life is it, cos p v c proved itself a bit more hasn't it? aye, right i don't know if you if you feel that the wee chat we've had is any good but, because we don't want to chat along too long mm but i'm trying to make you aware of the fact that at some stage we should be looking long and hard at closing, right we'd ask the questions, you're quite good at asking questions, some sale field don't ask question, don't ask questions, right see you want to have a as well when you're talking to say something they believe in, right do you like my window? yes do you follow me, was that sort of do you follow me? mm the main questions you ask, the more he'll believe, he don't ask, it's, it's, it's all about, this is what i'm saying about erm reacting, eh when basically what you would is you'd make a statement, tell him something and then ask him a question, which is what you did anyway, but i don't know if you're always aware of what you're doing, you're doing, you do it naturally, selling is about making statements and then asking questions, you do it when you telephone customers all the time mm right, but we've never covered all this see, you've picked bits up as you've gone along and another thing you should never give a choice of something and nothing you should always give a choice of something and something else oh yeah, but then you've also got to watch i mean that i'd, sometimes i'd muck things up when i've given too much choice i think well that's like saying you want to lower your counters or shall we employ tall, tall girls it's like what? saying shall we lower your counters or or shall we employ tall girls, you follow me? what you say basically to somebody is, right, what do you want them this height or that height? mm do, do you follow in? mm do you know what i'm saying to you? no ha alright, let's, let's, i mean when you're, when you're a good choice for instance, right, all you say to somebody is do you prefer the traditional right or would you prefer the modern styles, right in other words would you like georgian or would you rather have leaded yeah do you follow me? that's an alternative choice, perhaps somebody says oh i preferred the leaded that's a buying signal yeah do you see what i mean, all these things, do you understand what i'm saying to you? mm you've nearly of done it yeah you know what glass do you want? you've, you've closed on, on patterns of glass yeah i do that a lot for the bathroom that's right so you can do it on leaded light, you can do it on handles, but either you lay it on the customer right, which do you prefer? i've heard you saying it, which do you prefer, right, but you're aware of what you're doing mm that's a closing question, which do you prefer? mm right now all these things which you've been saying are all written down yeah you follow me? you're not the first person that have ever thought of it though, that's what i'm trying to say to you you see i mean i can see the goal there every day, i can see, i can see me sort of getting to the goal, i just maybe sort of go around it, i mean well a bit i mean, since i've had these two i sort of said, you know, would it, would it be the white handle, let me show you, you know the gold handle and, you know fine er what we're, what we're saying to you basically is, right, and, and another thing you're doing is proving that you're capable of doing it, now if i was training you from cold, right, and you hadn't done it mm and i didn't know whether you were capable of doing it, i would make you, tell you had what to do mm but because i know you can do it i can say you another one to one conversation with you about it, but basically you're no way near to guide the customer you're in there to sell the customer mm right, and what you say is, as for the, you've got to stack you on er and when you're talking to them, right, you've got to use these words, that's what i was saying to you earlier, what do you prefer? which do you prefer? how? if? how many? right who's usually be cleaning the windows, right, who would usually be cleaning the windows? right do you like? right, do you like net curtains behind your windows? do you like venetian blinds? are you following me? you get, if you wanted to go in it really in depth mm you can write down these words, that would then be given you a clue things that you could be saying to your customers, where, right, if you start thinking about the job that you're doing and i give you the word where, right you think of the number of times you can use the word where, with a customer, right mm where would you put the right, where would you want to put the wooden fence? do you know what i mean? lead words, if you want to sit down and, in, in general you see er, you want to just sit down and think about what you're doing and what you're not doing, you can sit down and exercise on these words, now i'm not saying you'd ever want to do that, right now if, now you know i was saying to you about comparative questions right mm was it comparative i was talking to you about? i was talking about comparative, where some er situations and all this, that and the next thing, right, i mean one that, quite a, quite a useful phrase what you say is, isn't that true that, no you might not like that phrase, right, but you can take phrases like that and you can think to yourself can i, can i, right. tied in questions, they, they usually ask, you know i went on to you on, on about tied ins, right, didn't you, hasn't it, wouldn't you, right, wouldn't you prefer, wouldn't you rather, right, if you could wouldn't you. now these are all tied in lines mm right, now if you want to understand how to tie down, you just need to look at one or two tied in lines, and then you can, you can add, oh you can add your main lines what i'm trying to say is, when it comes to, when it comes to, when it comes to, when it comes to selling, there's a lot more than just what might you've got, right, see i mean, i see for instance, you've probably, you probably don't, you probably don't, you probably don't go along right quite often right, people will buy what products can do with them, they don't buy the products, are you with me? so you've gotta sell benefits you've gotta know what the product can do for them, right you've got to find out what they want from it i mean it might be security that's the big problem mm you know that yourself, it might be maintenance it might be condensation it might be condensation, right, now you're aware of these things, cos if you're really working professionally, your head's supposed to be running all across this stuff while you're in there, in there with the punters mm you follow me? if you're really into it, right, find out what your customer wants done always guard against talking too much mm listen, right apath empathy is the word, you know what empathy is? relating, you form a, a bond basically between you and the customer, that's why you sell well, cos you gel well with your customers, there's empathy there, you've got to come across as caring and sharing, but you've gotta ask questions and you listen to the answers, right, you've got to basically treat their problems as if they were your own, do you know what i'm saying to you? right and you've got to sell benefits. let me give you an example of how you sell the benefits one and only one thing the handle, you've got that handle, that system you'll love that benefit mm right, you love that benefit, doesn't matter about anybody else in the country likes that benefit, you are gonna sell them that benefit, but there's other benefits to the system, do you follow me? mm you can actually get stronger as you go along on all the benefits so instead of selling one benefit, you could sell them a multitude of benefits because it means that if you're with a customer two hours or two and a half hours, instead of spending ninety percent of the time, chatting along, you, you'll not argue about, you follow me, i've stopped selling benefits, but i used to sell them brillian brilliantly, in other words you get, gives you a bit of meat mm and you know how they say to you at times oh thanks ever so much, i've never heard anybody that would cover a thing in quite so much detail, i mean you don't want to sound like a machine that's pumping out information mm but it's gotta be in your head, you know what i'm saying to you? because the more you know about your product, the more you know about the benefits, the more you know eh you've got to keep an open mind on it, you know that, right you cannot go out and just sell this ee for me, just one line, bom, bom, bom mm bom, bom, right, cos i'm inclined to do that sometimes, right , you know you've got to sow seeds with customers that's where you get your recommends from, right, eh, you know that you put it, show a warmness towards you, you follow me? yeah you know, all these things again i'm working this all purely in key words, you follow me? i put a word, because it, you follow me, it fits the theme that we're talking about, alright? see basically if a customer objects, you're about to cover the, the fact that if the customer objects, say come back to canvassing for a minute, you get somebody, you phone somebody up and they say, urgh, urgh, and they just mumble away and they listen to you and they don't listen to you, right, it's a waste of bloody time, but if they talk to you and they give you objections and you deal with these objections, right, they're bound to buy mm do you follow? it's the people that, that actually, do you follow me? what width do you use? what's the distance between the two panes of glass, it's showing an interest doesn't it? mm right and you should never fight with objections, i think you realize that don't you? er if somebody hits you with an objection, you deal with it, you don't fight, you follow me? you, you then take this and have a wrestling match with that objection you, you know what i'm saying? yeah you understand what i mean by that? eh you work it and you move on yeah you follow me? you deal with it and you move, right by the way there is a big bit out of it. mm now a bad habit that i got into, right, a customer will be talking to me and i don't know if you've noticed it, i won't let them finish what they're saying, i'll jump in because i'll know what they're asking me yeah, i've noticed it a wee bit with me? right a wee bit i mean aye, but i mean i notice it, it's just that i've been doing that job that longly you see, you follow me? now you see, i'm anticipat yeah, anticipate are you with me? yeah cos when you, when you get to the stage that you're at now basically, that it's not that difficult be what sort of extra money to find no are you with me? now i don't wanna, want me to prattle on much more tonight, if it's not worth speaking about, i think it's probably about enough but do you, oh what was you going say? without sort of looking for some, for a phrase or whatever, i'm more or less, i'm not too bad at erm, well er i wonder if you will use any of the things that i've talked to you about tonight? if only you were aware of we did the other things mm right i mean what would you for instance think if it's possible, if i can prove that right mm sixty percent of customers buy first through re recommendations, for instance, right, if i can prove to you that sixty percent of customers buy, buy first through recommendations, right, would you not see that as a kind er reason why you should buy first as well ? right mm, but it's impossible to prove that is no it's not, i can sit there with a customer list and i could tell you who recommended who yeah, well you possibly can, i couldn't try, i could, i would never say that to customers, that's a load of shit see, but the point is you, you you get some folk come away can you turn the t v down a fraction sweetheart? see basically what you're talking about is, you know when you close somebody, and i've got to come on to this, because this is the, this is the key to selling deals. when you close you been hearing me say this to you when we first started, i'm sure that you, you know, you're aware of it now, you should be, what did i say to you once you've closed somebody? let's say you had somebody with a price now this should apply every time you hit somebody with a price, every time no matter where you are is the total amount payable? alright, alright, the total amount payable, but there's only five thousand, six hundred and fifty four pound that's the total price including vat the total price including vat, what do you say next? price that goes onto it, on no you shouldn't say anything oh yeah and, and, open date it yeah i am aware of that style actually because i'd sent my brother a oh we've all got to be a little wary a wee bit yeah you should be wary of every appointment yeah, i do, i am actually, i mean, i'm not saying i'm a hundred percent oh well you should be but, yeah, well i am but i tell you if you ever get to the stage where you are, are a hundred percent that'll close deals, that's your best close of the lot mm really is, there is no beli , you've seen, you've seen it with me have and you get, you get the object you get their objection then oh, aye you'll get it you know if you silence is the most powerful weapon you've got mm and verbal diarrhoea is the worse yeah that you can possible indulge in i do do that because it gets a bit uncomfortable sometimes, you know you see, you know i was talking to you earlier about, about punchlines basically, but i can't remember the words i was using for it, times like by the way, right right, or did you know or did i mention to you do you follow me, a lot of key lines that you can think on that you use mm right, now if you can increase your number of closes that you know them and you're capable of using, and if you can increase your number of key lines that you, do you follow me mm in other words if you can improve your strength yeah what chance has the punters got? mm right, cos, it's like everything, it's like your weight it either goes up and up and up or it goes down and down and down, you'll never hold it the same mm so if you try and work with the same amount of closes all the time, you'll end up getting weak in one or two yeah you know what i mean? and you'll end up maybe only using one or two and you should be using ten, and you must go in a silence trap, that is so, so important mm you don't always use it though used to though yeah last ones were a bit as it used to be, i mean i really, i get away with things, do you follow me? but i don't wanna encourage you with it, do you follow me? yeah, i'm going upstairs right i'm going through here some of these, some of these mummy yeah, what? so you're thinking of washing her then are you? yeah, the only trouble is if i take students, they want to do their washing use the washing machine it's only ten, in a minute for dinner do you want a biscuit? is that what you're saying? got up this morning she said can i have a pie? i've not got any fancy biscuits, but you can have a plain one she's had a big cake it's only a plain one an apple and a, a banana in the kitchen if she wants do you want one? anything like that no, not one of them don't you like them? do you want a banana instead? i don't like them, there, i want a different biscuit i've not got any other kind, that's all i've got different one you want one? there's no different ones , that's the only one that's all i've got she'll waste it, it doesn't matter she'll waste it don't want it don't want it alright do you want a banana? that one don't pick your nose, what you doing today dirty boy is that a nice biscuit? could do with one of them for a long time, couldn't i? is that a nice biscuit? bite it not really, can't do the remember the one you gave to granddad, the one real, that's the biscuit, it's not real is it i get chocolate one, it's not real, i want different one don't keep biting it then it's rubber want a different a different one there's no real ones, no real chocolate ones are there no chocolate ones? that's a rubber one do you want a banana instead? do you want a banana? there's a, there's different, a chocolate one not got any, not got any chocolate ones a chocolate one there's no chocolate ones where? there's none that one what one? that one it's empty finished here mum thank you what about this one here, you just gonna leave that there? here mum thank you i want a banana she wants a banana right er banana er move this on just the table so it doesn't fall, david, put your juice better on the table so it doesn't fall, see it in the middle there, it'll fall off there granddad's talking to you come on, put your juice over there a bit so it doesn't fall off the table ah that's better, ta ah magic, look say thank you to pauline you haven't said thank you, have you? they're shy say thank you to pauline or you can't i like the jumper that you bought aye, it's a nice one what? so you've got both these cheques safely in your bag, have you? probably, yeah mum can you not open your banana yet? you open it what's that you've got in your box? i had er, an odd behaviour from david yesterday morning you know mm to tell me there was somebody in the house you open it i don't know if he's got an imaginary friend you open it mm, mm open it who was in the house yesterday then? tell granddad who was in the house yesterday morning when we woke up can you remember? was it a man a who man? man on the telly? anthony's got the flu did you know? who? anthony when? said he was off yesterday cos he had the flu mm, cos he wasn't very well last week wasn't he? but he seemed alright at the weekend, he was decorating at the weekend yeah, she said he wasn't well so i take it he must of gone down with the flu after that then yeah so when did you see him? no i was talking to julie yesterday, she phoned me up at the mm surgery is she working this week? she's supposed to be having david next week for me mm when this, when i do this course mm which is gonna be wonderful what is that a one day course? yeah, well, no it's a one day course then i've got four and a half things af , you know follow on mm things after it mm one a month or once every fortnight mm and then i take it all erm, i start doing them regularly, i think it's probably a tax you know some for the tax that they did, spend a lot of money so the government haven't got to find that bit rather than them being yeah probably , probably mm so, it's called involving everyone, so everybody's got to go mm half past seven in the morning i was sitting here yesterday till half past five at night i was sitting here yesterday mor day before, and that bloody picture snapped the catch, the catch on it, broken it and it just dropped straight down did it, did it break? it had quite a strong catch on it by the look of it well that's not very strong though well you wouldn't of thought it would just suddenly of snapped would you? didn't break though, you're alright no it didn't break, but it means it's unlucky if they break i've got to rig something else up on the back and i've got to hang it up otherwise it means there's a great big white patch on the wall mm mm. desmond were doing mm, mm at the weekend, cutting through four wires or, quite a bit of how are they? are they alright? i think they're okay i see that linda's still down here but annie's not i've never seen her for years what about linda is she still about? she's at torquay for years and years little loud linda here mum yeah she was a bit mouthy wasn't she? yeah and that, these bits of paper you had as well, where are they? they're in my cup mum wait a minute then so paul is having a week dozing really, he's not doing much work this week well no, seems to be quite, i was busy yesterday and, and it seemed to be a really busy week, but a couple of appointments fell down, but i've got quite a busy night tonight. and what are you doing? me, i'm dozing even better than him he's a chief dozer are you aye, well, we've got a lot of new people starting this week your trousers are getting a bit short are they not? no they've always been a bit short somebody i, ones that i give him that i thought he oh thought it was a bit short, ha no, i've got ee, i've got various pairs at various lengths yeah and i think the fact that the stomach is getting fatter is that your trousers short? i think it's the stomach that's fatter pulls them up a bit. yeah, it could be. but i'm going on a diet i'm on a diet this week i'm not quite sure when i'm going on mine that's the problem mine happened yesterday did it? i'm starving is that why your back's bad? no, it's is it psycho psychosomatic is that the word? i think it's the walking that did it, i don't know mm but, but sort of sudden movement of the body after aye not using it for some you should, you should need some indulgence from this exercise it's exertion, it's so awful no i count up to ten, i keep getting up in the middle of the night to weigh myself mm which means i'm getting a bit paranoid doesn't it? mm, mm i've got some electronic scales upstairs they're wha they're really accurate mm go on then i'll have a go, but nobody's allowed to look no you won't yeah, no, they're in his, well they're in his room still, he's hiding them because i'm hiding i've had a weigh in once, i've lost about five pounds good but i'm getting a bit fed up with it this week oh you cannot get on the chair with your boots you get off with your boots but you'll not get enthusiastic about it, and this is the important thing well i'm sticking pretty much to it i don't, i don't think dieting is the main thing, it's just cutting down and getting more exercise mm it's not the only thing no, she's on one of these where you can you can eat a lot of good food it's the one that shelly went on it does work you see i go on fruit and that for a day and all i do the next day is get a terrible cramp in the stomach mm and then want to eat a lot, so it's like, it's like acidy that's definitely psychosomatic with you then your what? acidy, you not feel so acidy, it's like aye or windy or which, not good for anybody mm but this diet is the one that shelly, she lost quite a lot and jill went on it for quite a while mm and she lost a stone too, it's really the only trouble is, it's when the, i think the dieting, it's alright the dieting, but it's when you stop the dieting that's right, yeah you just think oh i've not had that for ages, i've not had you've got to develop, you've got to develop a decent eating habit i'm just frightened you're gonna pig out no as, as no that's all it is it's losing that and then mm keeping to the habit yeah yeah what happens is folk, folk treat it as a diet and then when they stop the diet, they stop the habit mm yeah you see i'm quite you follow me you were to keep it up as a habit and keep to the habit you see i'm quite good in the summer, if i get up and have a proper breakfast, like cereals and toast mm and fresh orange or something mm and then stuff like soup or mm sandwich you know, sort of sandwich for dinner, something mm sort of proper then i just have my tea, it's more the picking and eating sweets in between in between like yeah but everybody overeats, but most people, i mean they're, if you look at the rubbish that we, that we push into ourselves that we shouldn't push in and that's the bit that causes the damages that's right yeah i mean i, i'll today i'll have ice cream but mine's lack of exercise at the minute because everything's going loose i've had je i'll have jelly will you? jelly's not fattening though i'll have bounty jelly's only water will i have bounty? i'll probably have crisps and we go and bulk buy the crisps we'll get big packs will you? and what else will we have? you see that doesn't appeal to me, i'm a sort of meat pie and potato oh a meat pie and potato person are you? yeah, steak and kidney pies i could eat mm, quite and eat it, and you had a cream cake when you was up the town did you? no he had a cake, i didn't have a cake what did you say to me on he phone when i was talking to tracey? i said tell them not to bring too many cakes oh i did think about bringing something up and i thought well, i'm not having any so nobody else is er, i've had a bowl of rice crispies today mm, mm with semi-skimmed milk that's it, then i'll have my lunch lunchtime and have my tea teatime mm, mm he, he sat here this morning he said all serious he said i'm cutting out potatoes, bread, biscuits and all sweet things, so i you know, i just said, well if you know if you are love, do you want me to sort of start, you know, obviously not cooking you potatoes and whatever, well what we'll see in a, probably in about two month's like,you know but you need, erm especially a man you need to have the of course you do you need to have those like those and mars bars and mars bars no you don't need to have mars bars and ice cream you need to have bread and potatoes and treacle and viennettas rather than all these sweet things that you eat mm just to eat proper meals, minimum, like the minimum you can ah, but i'm not into that, i'm into, i'm into all the all the bits well then and pieces the same that's the trouble innit? dave's the same , but dave can eat like six or seven bars of chocolate a day and get away with it but dave's at the age where he can work it off no, but he's starting not to no, but he does the mm, he's quite slim though really though isn't he? yeah he is he has put on about a stone since he's stopped smoking though mm what does he wear at work? blue trousers and a blue top i've got pairs of trousers up there you know no it's work trousers, it's only, they have to provide them oh so i mean, that he, that he doesn't wear other trousers and no, he's got to wear erm no it's just that i've got a lot of trousers up there that are far too big for me now that might fit him get out david that might of fitted him far too small you mean far too small far too small yeah i mean i've got one pair that's really small for me, really, really small yeah they're quite a nice pair actually they are actually like, yeah, they're sort of like he's a thirty two what, what, what what they're ones are you talking about? them sort of like sandy coloured ones no i wasn't talking about them ah but i have got them as well david will you get out please alright now i mean you could get is, would he wear them if they were half decent now nick? i don't know, probably not, i mean he doesn't wear his, i mean like proper trousers mm i just put away no, he's hard to get him into his suit trousers mm they're not suit trousers they're yeah, i don't know he's i wear them with jumpers and things he doesn't go anywhere dad doesn't he? just goes to work and comes home well there you are then he goes out for about an hour on a saturday if i, if he's forced out i said, out oh get out please yeah they're not the ideal things that they should be wearing, but, like because the what for work? yeah, cos they're not made, they're made of are they thin? reasonably, but they've, they've got to wear them and they're not allowed to wear t-shi t-shirts with no sleeves on and, certain rules and regulations for mm, mm the no the material like for driving in mm is what i want, cos it makes them too hot mm crimplene or something david yeah what did i say? er get out before he's stuck get out before i get you out, quick, if you got in you can get out, get out i've got to decide what i'm going to do i'm stuck with that i'm stuck he's bound to be coming in and wanting to be starting that job it's stuck what's stuck? what's stuck? i should really take him into that your foot's stuck? office place and give him a bag of plaster and tell him to plaster there for a day either that or send him up to when you gonna start morgan's? now you get out and stop going a couple of weeks three weeks, i want to get that space on that yet right as long as you do what you want, but i'm gonna phone them, i'm going up there with joey to have a look at it and i shall also, i'd still cook then i shall also stop climbing about, go on the floor and play with your train or your car or something oh, aye, remind me about that tonight then mm, i shall be out tonight mm, before you do it though what time is it? is that er clock, that clock's not working is it? no what time is it bob? where's the clock? mm? twenty five past eleven where's the clock? where? what time it's still do you go then? where? probably ten after twelve mm you're still not smoking then tracey? done well ain't you? mm not at all? has dave stopped at all? no, he sa , he did, the, happen occasionally went to a neighbour and asked to them to borrow one, he's not started again mm, find it difficult when you get to that stage, it's usually when you, once you want no that was, that was back a bit was it? yeah, he seems to be alright now, he wasn't sleeping at night, i was worse at the beginning you see but he sort of got mm, mm , mm got to come terms with eh? yeah know that they were two sizes too big for me no i just thought they looked a bit short that was all if you were going this far then the doctor put on it that going it had on it all that he hates which he takes it means either osteoarthritic mm or overactive, i would think it was probably osteoarthritic mm and constant pain in her right leg mm he said just put down the main mm the main illness mm and that's erm right so that's what they did, so mm, did it, did it ask how much was stretching on her, what she can do and what she couldn't do or yeah, he did in a put after mm he just had to like, you know if he wanna get man just to confirm that there was something there basically that's right causing the trouble yeah mm, well it's worthwhile doing that what put i mean even if they don't get a result on it even if they get something that's better than nothing mm, mm and i said to them if mm they don't get the full amount now they may as well to try again after april because mm she most coming in after april that's right mm, they grade you sometimes don't they? different grades for yeah different definitely think they'll get some yeah look them two women up at malden and, and, and the bloke came in and they were out on an extra yeah yeah and you grand much interest she she's running a bit buying bloody washing machines and carpets and yeah, i mean cos yeah you follow me it's all, it's all paying money yeah you get in the habit of spending ex amount, you see yeah and then what else they get on top is the, is a bonus. well grandma sort of had it like, when she was like looking after me granddad and whatever like er it's a different sort of kind of, it's the same sort of thing, but you know, something different yeah i know what you mean so if she's sort of er like an attendance allowance or something like that yeah, there's two different attendances isn't there? and once they've got it you see they're not gonna take it away no, i know you can't, i mean, it's there for you know and then she gets , she gets to something else now, like, she sort of like, looking after herself and whatever mm and she's just turned over eighty odd want to play mum but in ninety two ninety two quid for herself ninety two a week and she lives like in a warden controlled place the same as your gran and granddad yeah you know and she, you know you don't have to pay much this sort of heating's in or something like that so she's probably got loads of spare money like you, which is good because she's on her own and it gives her more, you know i mean there's no point in them, in, in, in them, in them, accepting minimal benefit when they can get maximum benefit is there? no. i mean if you look at it that way did i tell you i'm gonna do a course in september? what you gonna do this time? i've got erm word processing? no i don't know what to do writing oh, i've got him in at the play school you see, starts play school after easter mm, mm up at the technical college mm so i thought while he's up there rather than me walking up and walking back, cos that would be too much exercise aye and what money did you get on it? what? what money does the government pay you? i don't think they'll pay me any cos they're always on about credit allowances and this that and therefore i know but i'm working but if you're working, if it's a wh if it's a job that you would enhance your employ, employment prospects yeah surely there's bound to be an employment in credits, does, does telephone not work on an employment credit scheme? no, they, well this is the trouble you see it's not secure down there do they work on in-house training then basically maybe? yeah, but you've got to, no they do send some on courses, but they have to select the people and it's done official yeah what to do to them mm, and but if that's part of the scheme you see what course is it that you're doing then? well i'm gonna do the pre-play school one mm cos i've had a, over a year's experience doing it mm doing it mm mm which is good, i mean you need experience i think mm, mm plus if i could get something doing a job like that i'd still have the holidays off, cos i'll need mm i haven't got any cover for him in the holidays mm and that would work around the school holidays mm so that and what advantage would that be for you then? well it would be something, it would be a bit of paper that say that i can look after children under five, i could go and run a play group or do whatever and earn some money mm, mm see instead of doing the one i'm doing and just taking a little bit of money, i could go and start up another one mm, mm and then dig and make quite a bit of money well that's what you want to do mm, mm yeah, well that's one i mean i've got a spare room and you can have it there yeah but the only thing is that it's up the stairs mm, mm and i don't know that you'll be able to do it in there well it's just fire and you have to be but mm you can only because it's upstairs but you could do a parent and toddlers could you? or is there no money in parent and tots? erm, you can get a bit of money, but not very much mm but what you need is a one to one to get the child out the building if there's a fire mm, mm what's this mum? because there is ample space along there what's this mum? really it'll be ideal along there and i mean we, we, we could actually encourage folk to come and work with us and, and, and say that there's childminding avail yeah you follow me, there's a lot of folk that we could employ mm that, that, that, that would be glad to hear, do you follow me? yeah that if there was a facility there mm cos at the minute anyway that's, that's on , that's only a three hour course that's running for thirteen weeks, which will cost me forty pounds, but i'll take i mean if you take the number of people we've had that's had to get babysitters and that that's right, yeah or and things like that, that the, that, the, love a joker or somebody who was mm you know, where they've only got to bring their oh i'll take forty pounds of the play group in thirty weeks so that'll cover the cost in how long? in, in thirt , i'll take ten pound a week off them mm off the, no, yeah ten pounds a week er where do you go for this? the technical college and it's a one year course is it? no it's thirty weeks ah, but that's er, that's, sorry, it's a one mm, sheila's thinking about doing it with me as well mm i don't know if she will or not, but i'm going to do it, it's wednesday morning i could put him in to the, to the creche at the same time mm, and what does that enable you to do then? takes, allows you to take the children up to five? yeah, i'd run a creche erm help out you know, be part of a, part of a thing or i could set up some my own do your own thing, mm yeah, you can normally only have one person to four children you see mm, and what do they normally charge? it depends, it depends what you're doing with it, see we either we'd put mums and tots which is something, erm well whatever you take it's as somebody that is doing it as a business, what sort of money are they looking to? i dunno sheila was pound an hour or something? sheila was saying that the council, the council one is about sixty pound a week i don't, ooh, mummy i want to go full time, full time so you could take two hundred and forty quid then or about one fifty probably so you could take two hundred and forty quid at it? probably, but you can't do it full time, you've got to have breaks, you must have an hour break mm for lunch mm but two of you should take two hundred and fifty, i mean some of them part time along with you you'd have to yeah well you'd have to, to make to erm mm i wanna get down in a minute mm now i need to look into it, i'll know better once i've done the course aye, what you can do i want to get down now and what you can't do but i know from having made this one a successful mm, mm see they've offered me more money to stay at this one cos i've got it running quite well mm, mm got a treasurer mm that does all the money for me, does all the books mm for nothing mm i've got another girl that does all my buying mm of the toys and that, she goes around all the and buys decent stuff mm and i'm running it and doing like the advertising for it mm and what have you mm and safety stuff and i mean what's your views, what's your views on what you're doing then? safety stuff, the only thing is see, see, i mean if you take a, if you take a, look at it at a point of view of yeah you are, eh the basically eh if you were doing your own thing and making decent money yeah and this funding on the mortgage and all these sort of things, doesn't it? yeah whereas at the minute i'm not sure how much the insurance is you see that, what i've against, i mean what i'm doing, doing is co we have to have building insurance to cover the room mm therefore they send the salvation army up come mum and that it's called the salvation army group mum, mum so as far as i'm concerned even though it's me running it it's the salvation army that's book it's the salvation army books not mine yeah, mm er, oh i could be earning, i could be making a lot more money, for it, fund raising money for it mm or for myself, if, if i thought it was me me, aye, it could be developed that's what you're saying? oh yeah definitely see i've started doing a newsletter for mm twenty p a week mm costs me ten p to do the newsletter mm getting ten pence of each person that buys it mm do it, well i do it on the month mm, mm i mean just small things like that right you can push it see if you can look at the lights er, what you call er? like there's weight watchers, shelley's pal mm mm makes a fortune plus i can use, to do bring and buy aye things, between the mothers and that, so i've got an advertising board, you know and, and if they wanted to get, to put some money in the pot or whatever mm, mm, mm you just donate a few pennies get down mum it's surprising even the odd thirty pence here and there mm, mm of course it does yeah it's funny mm, mm i'd charge fifty p see, fifty p would, would do mm we pay twenty five pound rent a month for the hall mm, mm, mm twenty five pound a month on the hall mm charge fifty pence per pe per family mm and it's usually about, we make ten pound a morning thirty pound mm, and what are they, are they, are, are they actually supposed to make money off it or is it just supposed to be a break even thing or are they quite happy no it's not supposed to be profit making mm but social services said to you if it's profit making you've got to get more money the helpers have got to get more money mm, mm somebody's got to be getting more money out of it basically mm, mm and the salvation army are getting the rent mm see the, the salvation army only comes up for the get down she's got nothing to do with the money mm, mm, mm but because i've got a committee mm oh go, let go got a team of four people that help me mm and i don't feel that i could be taking too much money out without putting a certain amount back into it mm, mm ah, look but i'm going to apply to telethon for a grant tele who? telethon telethon? yeah mm cos that's the charity that's running this year mm for a grant for the toys because we got the original grant from children in need mm, very good seven hundred and fifty pounds mm for the toys at the beginning get down mum but you can only do one charity at a time aye get down yeah mm come on mum i'm not going yet, in a minute get down, me come on what you put on? in the kitchen in the kitchen what's in the kitchen? are you gonna have some of your juice? no, do wee wee mum mm, mm go on then come on no i am no better once i've done the course, but alright were you are on this one i just won't it aye, aye, i know what you're saying you know what i mean? aye i know more about the insurance and mm whatever for mm if you've got one two four mm, mm i'm just responsible for him at mine, got notices all over the place that say mm that safety belongs to the parents and mm, mm you know like they're responsible yeah mm i should of said, we want to get some toilet rolls at some stage today yeah for wiping bottoms and have a poo and i don't wanna i know you haven't it's just one of these crosses you've got to bear haven't you? mm we're having for lunch er what? corned beef ha, are we? and beans mm, mm and corned beef and have hard boiled egg mm, tell you what we having chops tonight again? mm, mm nah, we can have them later, ambiguity and sprouts and spuds got to get some veggies go out now there's some cabbage in the back if you get it and prepare it then and prepare it, ho, ho, ho, what's this prepare it, it's good for you, it's good cabbage, it's fine cabbage alright last month it was winter cabbage mm i'll go and get that there, if you mind him so what nights have you got, early you want tracey er five to quarter to nine tonight, taken my sundays away in april mm, will that mess things up a bit for you? yeah, i'll have to work, i'll have to start at half four as in the week mm so i wasn't er but sure about taking the students whether put it in, but they're only sending me four i think two for a month what from the home? yeah, two for a month and then two for a can't have you not doing anything can i? i love you do you? i love you, i love er i love you do you? aargh how's your toe today? let me see look what i've got oh that's coming on ever so nicely, see this one, got no toe nail on this one, that's better, that's better that's to put the yeah so they've agreed for me to take fifteen pound a week instead of ten mm but i'll have to, i'll have to stop doing wednesdays if i do the course for three months mm, so your, your mum's got, eh the divorce finalized is she? well i believe so, i've not really spoken to her for very long accordingly to trina there was a problem buying the house seven hundred thousand pounds or something did she? i don't know, she seemed to have told trina it's ever so sad isn't it? more about it than me eh? she knows she says according to trina she says eh i, i, i didn't er, er, i wanted, knocked them back seven hundred thousand, but they would only, would only knock back a hundred and fifty you not your dad apparently yeah i mean what sort of place what? wait a minute cos i might not get it right, tell me a big number what you mean a big number? tell, tell you a big number, what big number? of house prices house prices? yeah, one something, one million? alright one, one million dollars alright well it's more than that a million dollars well, well one, one million and a half i would think yeah, but where she bought the house then? on the sea front in sydney? no crunella it would be, which is sydney? that's good but her original house was on the water and what was that for? well they got to, i don't know they got two or three millions dollars for it four, yeah they go up to four so she a lot of money for a house four million pound property she's buying quite a cheap one i think she's buying a million what one and a half million? something like that and what's erm an australian dollar compared with er probably about half, we're half here so that's three quarters of a million she's paid for it then, we're half? or they're half? three quarters of a million pounds what we're half? we're double you mean? if it's a million, if it's a million and a half dollars it's er three quarters of a million pounds fine, so that's three quarters of a million quid mm i think that's right, you'd have to ask trina mm cos, erm and no swimming pool, let's go mum things she hasn't have must, well they have swimming pools on the beach anyway do they? mm they have, cos you can't sell your house, in some bits you can't see the sea so you have a little pool, walk out the door and you go swimming can't be bad can it? can't be bad . so she must of come out of this divorce quite well then? well i don't know because i, i didn't speak to her about the money, sheila spoke to her, but she knows not to speak to me very much about money, see mm so, erm she probably no she doesn't cos she used to like er she's prattling on about it she, she used to go on about it and all this and i, i sort of fell out with her at one time, but didn't actually speak to her about it no so all i knew was that she got the divorce and mm erm, she was buying a house for whatever it was it certainly was a lot of money three quarters of million it sounds a lot a million mm you need about a million to four million down there mm cos erm tom took his son to court mm over one er but that's been taking about six years now well that was a million then was it? yeah mm it's still a lot of money for a house yeah, they're not fancy houses though she's got i wanna do it mm, mm well they're fancier than here mm er, but, you know what i mean no, not the not the best in the world no, nothing super one when she coming across? well she was talking about coming across in august for er grandma and grandpa's fiftieth anniversary mm aargh which is the same day mm but she can't come for some mm reason for toby being at school, but toby doesn't want to come anyway he doesn't? no he had enough the last time did he? i think so, i don't think he got on very well with grandma and grandpa and that mm he didn't take to them all that well they didn't take to him or he didn't take to no they didn't , well neither don't think, either they sort of much you got on alright with him didn't you? yeah he was alright, i didn't like him when he was littler, maybe, he was very much like his dad, but mm he's at this time he actually erm quite civil yeah, but he seemed a bit more like a normal fifteen, sixteen year old er human yeah, well he was, when he was littler his dad was sort of saying one day you'll have all this then the next minute he was saying no you won't, you won't be having any of it do you know what i mean? that was his head was a bit of like his dad was yeah, so mm but he seemed quite normal and quite you know mm, real yeah mm so he'll have got a settlement as well then won't he? i would think so there would be a trust or something probably set up for him that's the normal yeah when he's eighteen but the trouble is i don't know what's happened i've lost, i suppose mum'll have to do it because erm tom has sort of cut him out, or said he was going to cut him out, but i think but in any divorce settlement i know with myself get off you don't climb on people's chairs you sit on them or you play on the floor but, if there's, if there's erm, if there's set if there's a settlement like that there'd been settled so much on her yeah and they would also, they, she probably the, the lawyers would also go for a settlement for him the property i would think a lot of the money is actually in property already or she's got to have it in property mm, mm because erm, i know he had a lot, he'd like try to buy everything in property so that he didn't actually have a lot of cash mm, mm so i don't know how that works er it was split back yeah mm mm but still, she said she's gonna send some for this one to have some er bonds or something mm, mm but er who's that? that's arthur mm who's that pussy cat? is that cat yeah, cos she said that she wanted to buy is that pussy cat? er a property or something for toby because she's got to invest the money in mm something mm is that pussy cat? arthur will you stop jumping all over me, get down on the floor and play who's that? yes, well she was all, so i've been speaking to her for weeks when she didn't mm she hadn't got it aye and then she was supposed to getting it and all the rest of it aye and then when she got it she was just sort of oh i'm buying a house aye and i'll try and send some over for the baby mm but i didn't actually know that she got i have what have you got mm, mm, mm what or mm, mm yeah, better put that one in as well, you need to put them in proper so that you can get it closed yeah, she invited us all over at christmas mm, mm, aha did he get down? didn't go? well it was just as well we didn't, she didn't have any money aye she didn't get the settlement until after the christmas oh i see waiting for the papers to go mm stop it will you stop your nonsense go out there and play, go and play with your orange car or hello, good afternoon ma'am! erm, i hope i haven't disturbed you, but i won't be on the phone long. my name is bill and i work for a firm called peter's windows, we manufacture and fit high quality conservatories, patio doors, double glazing and se security windows etcetera, is there anything in this line you'll be do you think? nothing you're thinking of having done and how long? you've got your,yo you've had a spate of er er sa salesmen around hello is that mr ? doing it have you? yes! that's alright. right, thank you very much indeed for your time . promotional call about replacement windows and doors and conservatories, do you think he'll be interested? okay. thank you very much is that then! bye bye ! , do you think he might call ba in barnstaple? no idea! well it's probably no dearer than ! oh i don't think that i can help and just say and i yen i went to get one in mm. and i thought it would cost ten pound. i mean, forget removals i thought they'd help out, wouldn't you? so he's gone out has he? yeah. he's gone down to the hello mrs ? oh, sorry to bother my name's kay calling from windows, we specialize in the manufacture well i did! of conservatories, porches, patio doors, replacement windows. hello, is that miss ? can i ask if this is something you've considered for your home? hello mrs , i'm sorry to bo bother you. my name is michelle and i represent a local company called specializing in oh i see! i am sorry to interrupted your ! oh right! yeah. yeah, i've heard this before on this. oh that's good! thank you for your time mr . bye ! at the cost of single glazing and our price is usually by fifty percent cheaper than the bigger national companies because we don't advertise and we're a trade com company and i wondered if we could offer you a free quotation, no obligation whatsoever to buy? okay, well thank you for you listening. okay. bye bye ! hello, is your mummy or dad there please? hello good afternoon sir! erm, i hope i haven't thanks. disturbed you but i won't be on the phone long cos i er, my name is bill and i work with a firm called for windows. now we manufa yeah, you do not er, conservatories, or or anything out of the usual, draught stoppers hello mr , i'm sorry to bother you , my name is kathy and i represent do you? a company called fever we specialize in the manufacture of conservatories, oh i see! i'm sorry to disturb hello mr ? you sir. okay. thank you for your time. hello mr . i'm sorry to disturb you! we have of course managed to get something you can ? called fever well i'm better off i had laryngitis last week, and i'm just clearing and coughing out. that's all we're doing, nothing drastic. now then. that that it's his little treat. that that's for you and ooh. your wife. oh. oh , you shouldn't do this all the time. oh dear oh dear oh dear. i i'll tell you i will be i will be popular daddy when i get home. there you are you see . you can't beat that. that will that'll be nice won't it? they will enjoy that. yeah i actually i'd better put these in the draw cos if i don't i can see someone else helping themselves. aye, you never know. and i probably put oh look at this, oh that well. oh well, that's nice cos my wife will like this cos it's it's not er it's very it's not er it's a sort of medium strength rather than it's like yeah. er asti yeah, ooh i like asti. well er i you w it's ju it's just very refreshing . the same as asti. i like asti, this is a this is a real something to have with a pudding. a real light pudding yeah. summer wine, ooh yes. summer pudding and this. i better put this in the draw as well, otherwise otherwise my antenatal,antenatal clinic later, dad's oh yeah. er what's he up to? that's right. anyway. now then. nice to see you again. er twenty fourth. i'm getting a little bit disturbed. now la last there's two people down here last week, they said they could hear me breathing they tell me they told but i don't feel any effects from it at all. now what have they have they said they can hear you breathing more quickly or more deeply or rattly or but didn't say that. they said they could just hear me didn't they meryl ? very quick and loud. mm. but er yet i don't think er don't seem to be i don't feel any deep breaths or shallow breaths? very small. he does about three now to me one. okay. what are you like at night? actually perhaps i should ask your wife . oh well, now i don't ask him at night because is that i is we hardly have any sleep. oh. because with bloody arm business. with this a arm. oh. this is up this is upsetting me more than the breathing job really . yeah. we we had one hour the other night. oh dear, now then. we'll come back to that. mm. now his breathing yes yes. n now you know when i went to see dr he said i'd got this enlarged heart? that's right, yeah. well what er what's what detrimental is that to me anyway? what's what's the effects on meself? on me er what causes it anyway ? how do how how do you put this into ho when you get when you get heart strain it's a bit like a pair of undies, okay? who which i which are having to cope with a bigger and bigger body. and the elastic gets stretched and stretched and stretched. and instead of being a snug fitting pair of undies they become a big baggy pair of undies that are really neither use nor ornament. and that's what the heart is like in heart failure. it gets more and more ballooned out and it just ca it gets less and less and less good as a pump. and eventually it's a bit flabby useless bag of muscle that really doesn't do anything. and that's right at the end, and that's why people die of heart failure. now you're not that bad. but there is some strain on the heart and it is rather large and it isn't working so well . what's what what's caused this ? what causes it? well it's usually because the heart itself is getting either old or tired or it's damaged in one way. and it just doesn't work as well. and then what y when it doesn't work so well you get a bit of a backlog of fluid. and you get the bit you get backlog of fluid both at the extremities, you get swollen ankles. but very commonly you get a backlog of fluid on the lungs. mhm. and so your lungs get a bit of fluid on the lungs, you get a bit breathless with it, and that's often the first sign. now you have had a few crackles but they've been fairly easily sorted out. and you're actually not on anything at the moment are you? just water tablets. yeah, just a low dose get rid os the fluid. that's just one so you're not on much at all. but i don't er how can i put it? i mean yesterday i cut the lawn. no no after effects. no ill effects. but you home and you was on with this breathing job. that now i were j i were just er you don't know that it's there but i do . i see what you mean, yeah yeah. well let's have a look to see what we've got. anyhow that's what happens in heart failure. and er if you can clearly identify that in folk, it's worth treating very vigorously cos it can make a huge difference. one of the problems in your case is, we've never really been able to cos i i when we when we've examined you from time to time, things come and gone. so erm i that er and i think what we ought to do is have another look at you now. dr dr when i he said he said i'd got legionnaires disease didn't he? or did he think or did he think it was pneumonia? well he said legionnaires disease, well i thought it was pneumonia. yeah. well legionnaires anyway disease is a pneumonia so and er i went for an x-ray and they said i'd got two two scars or but you know when you went to see dr you went to the park, didn't they ? that's right. yeah. did they x-ray your heart then ? ooh aye yes, yes. i had a proper job there. well you've had an e c g and we've done chest x-rays and erm the e the electrical tracing of your heart didn't really show an awful lot but so er anyway let's see what we've got today. okay? do you want to juts pop on the couch for me? i think has your builder started yet? the builder started a week last monday. did he? yeah. and they've done ever so well cos they did all cos of course we had fine whether last week, they got everything done, and then it poured at the weekend but they weren't there, and now they're back on site the weather's cheered up again. so it's great, perfect timing, so they're really getting going. we had a chap who'd come from ravenshead to do o to do ours , oh o our builders are actually from mansfield woodhouse. oh. we had a scots fencer. oh yes yes. i know them yes. very good, nice chap , ah that's erm fellows. they were very nice, yeah they came round to give us a quote and my wife actually knows one of their wives very very well and er but the produced an exorbitant quote. really? oh yeah, it was you know a order of magnitude greater so oh dear. we had a but when we tol when we told us they said oh they'd have come down to match the nearest competitor, and we thought oh why did he quote up there in the first place then. mm. oh had the are very variable they obviously thought we could afford a yeah. higher a higher price. it's not it's not screen the outside world out fair is it? yeah. well i thought so but we've got a we think the builders we've got are excellent. good. er they're competitive quote and they'll do the kitchen and unlike some you know, where they get subcontractors in for the joinery, the electrics yeah, yeah. it's their firm. yeah. and so yeah. we know where we are all the time, which i think is one of the huge advantages, it does i'm pleased they're getting on with it for you. they are, i mean there's only usually two or three there at a time, but you see it's all bricking at the present yeah. i mean aye, yeah. we can't do anything else yet. not really. when we're away though next week, i think they'll do quite a lot of stuff inside and but they're doing some for the same team are doing some friends of ours on main road and of course most of the people are down there. and we'd mm. rather they'd finished them off anyway,before they came to us. oh yeah. cos they're now a a week overdue already. this'll squeeze a little bit. your blood pressures fine, okay? it's a bit higher than it was last time but it's still well within the normal range, now just how far can you walk before you get short of breath, would you say? well the walking's no problem, it's when i start to run that's when i get now y you don't run. no but i'm pretty good walking a lo a hell of a way. but he's puffing and panting all the time. okay just sit forward for me. ta. really deep breaths now. okay. good, okay. and once more. yeah, that's fine. right, okay, that's all done. now all your vital signs are absolutely normal. your heart sounds fine but there is evidence that there is a little bit of fluid in your on your lungs. that in itself doesn't matter cos you're coping, but i suspect what happens is every now and again you get a little blip and your your breathing starts to alter and you get a little breathless , yeah, yeah. and then most of the rest of the time you're fine. but that's suggestive enough i think to s that's probably what's causing your breathless even if you don't notice it and you're compensating. it may have become so normal that you don't but i think mm. we could actually make you a bit bit a lot better than this, and i think the time has come to adjust how we're treating you a little bit. now what we need to do is to change your water tablets and to change your er medication a little bit. and what we're going to do is to say you had your water tablet this morning haven't you? i haven't had one yet, no i oh good. well i don't, not yet . brilliant. brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant coming out you see. brilliant brilliant. he daren't with coming out. it's coming out you s you get out okay. want to go and can't. yeah i know. they do acta rather promptly don't they? er let me see, what day is it now, tuesday, so wednesday. so your going to start those on thursday. now what we're going to do is change your water tablets. don't take a water tablet today. don't take one, no. don't take a water tablet tomorrow. and you can start on the new water tablets which are called frusamide on thursday. now frusamide is actually the stuff in laciride that makes you wee. so we're not actually changing your water tablets as such, we're just knocking a little bit off and leaving you just on the frusamide bit of your water tablet, okay? so you'll still yeah. be in the same way. what we need to do is to add a drug called anapril which is otherwise known as inavase and somewhere, but somewhere we have a brilliant, it's gone again. this thing keeps moving around, it's not here. right. we're going to put you on what's called a starter pack, now start this tomorrow night, okay? start on wednesday evening. so you don't take a water tablet today, you don't take anything tonight. you don't take a water tablet tomorrow and then you start this inavase stuff and the first dose should be taken at night because the main potential side effect with the very first tablet, and it's the first tablet only, is your blood pressure can go oh down a bit. so the best thing to do is to have it last thing at night as you plonk your head on the pillow. and then if your blood pressure does go down a bit it doesn't matter cos you're lying down. the important thing is that if you get up at night to have a wee, you beware that you may feel a little bit lightheaded, so you get up slowly, sit on the edge of the bed, you stand up slowly, and when you're happy you're off, off you go. okay? now if you don't get any problems with the first dose, then you're fine and then you can carry on. and it's one in the morning, okay? and you'll find for half the pack it's one a day and then for the second half of the pack it's two a day. and what i would quite like to do is to see you as you come to the end of the starter pack and i think the starter pack is oh i can't remember how many days treatment is in it. i can't remember if it's two weeks or four weeks, let me just check. cos it's important when we've got you that we we have a look at you, we listen to your chest, we check your blood pressure and we make sure there's no side effect. but this drug works in a very different way and it actually helps to take the strain off your heart er and it actually makes a huge difference. one eleven. we maybe actually go on like three weeks. but if i see you at towards the end of the and the packs are all labelled, it's very yeah. ah so you start off start on wednesday evening and then it's usually a daily dose and thursday you can restart your water tablets, once again one in the morning, okay. does that make sense? so if that wednesday night i take the tablets . yeah. wednesday night you start the starter pack. yeah, and he's got some different water tablets. yes . different water tablets yeah. and if you're okay overnight then you can carry on with the pack as directed on thursday morning yeah. and you start your water tablets at the same time. yeah. mhm. okay? yeah. now you may find you actually get a slightly more out of breath over the next thirty six hours, cos you haven't taken your water tablets. er i'm afraid we can't do anything about that. if you're going to start this stuff you really need to ha the people off the water tablets before you start. yeah, yeah. er otherwise people's blood pressure does go vroom into their boots. mm. and you have trouble, so we can't do that. er we'll play it safe. i can take i can take it easy well he easy he won't he you you won't come to any harm stopping the water tablets for forty eight hours. and then hopefully you'll actually get a lot better. s you'll find there's a lot less strain on the heart, you may find you can do more without getting short of breath. and even your wife should be happier. i know that she's worried, that's the trouble . i am and is there is some fluid on your lungs. she does she does worry about it and i and i think it's quite right to have you back and alter your treatment at this stage so , mm mm. er and we'll sleep with this arm as well will we . that's right as far as the arm is concerned we've got to be cautious, there. if we start waving a lot of anti mm. inflammatory pain killers we can actually give you we can actually make the fluid on the lungs worse. and i would recommend we just stick with something very basic to start off with like paracetamol, two four times a day something so very very simple like that. well actually what i've been i've been taking two before i go to bed at night. yeah, that's fine. paracetamol doesn't interfere with any of these, yeah, yeah . and it won't make any difference to your chest either. so i would actually do that, but if you're having pain in the day i would treat that as well. mhm. and you may find treating the pain in the day means it's not so bad at night so you actually get more sleep anyway. it's not often it comes on during the day, but now and again yeah. it does. yeah. i it does and i've told you now yesterday was yeah, i mean we've looked was at your arm and there's nothing yeah. yes, yeah. we'll see. so that's that. and yeah. it makes it important i see you before you run out of these yes. tablets. yes. okay, which i think is okay . going to be round about three weeks time. yeah. you'll have to count up. i can't it doesn't actually tell me how many days it is . yeah well we'll make the appointment when we've got the tablets and sorted it out. yeah, the chemist may not have those in stock but they'll be able to get you for them within twenty four hours, you're yes. not starting them until tomorrow oh yes. very kind oh he'll be able to get them in twenty four hours yes . oh aye,yes know them very well. if he has any queries he can give me a ring but i mean yeah. know me very well. yeah. so yeah. you're blood pressure's okay. your heart sounds fine so add anapril and we'll have you on the starter pack. er start on that on a wednesday, beware of first does. so just watch it after the first dose that evening, if you g especially if you get out of bed to have a wee. and then frusamide for your water tablet and that's to start on thursday and then review at end of pack. yeah. okay? yes. okay. and that should make a huge difference i hope. er and a even though most sometimes you're okay, sometimes you're not. and there is some fluid on your lungs aren't any of those in middle of the night like i use to. no we don't want those. no we don't want those. but but if i'm i'm we start this now then it'll prevent a lot of further problems. yeah. right then . good , okay and that's one of okay . the reasons i think for doing it. erm thank you very last week, week before, i was told a chest infection and throat infection and well i just don't feel no better. coughing all the while. i've also been sick but er yeah. i sto i haven't been sick for er about a week right. now. right. you've just finished a course of antibiotics, haven't you? yes. and that's fine and before that er yeah . do you smoke ? do you smoke? no. right, okay and nothing coming up? no i, i, i get a bit there every now and then and heave, and that yeah. makes me feel even worse yeah. like cos i yeah, what job do you do? a miner. okay, open wide for me. stick your tongue out. say ah. ah. yeah, it looks pretty good down there, okay, well let's have a listen to your chest. yeah, they'll be fine, bit cool. nice deep breath. mm. keep breathing for me. very deep breaths out. well. how would you feel if er a if i said sort of describe how you feel on a scale of one to ten? er right now i'm two one, two or lower. yeah, do you get feel really low and out of breath easily. yeah. are you getting hot sweats? yeah, do now and then, yeah. have you been anywhere exotic on holiday in the past three months? no. past year? no. and conditions down the pits? hot. . damp? water? well our pits there's a lot of water but it's, it's mostly body sweat and s i do get some water off a, a machine that i drive. yeah. but er it's, it is very hot. it's n no a hundred degrees . humid. yeah, okay. previous to this you've been fit and well? cos we've yeah, yeah. hardly seen you at all. no. okay. you've got a nasty chest infection. down here, the whole of the left side on the back. are you getting any chest pain? i have been on, you know with yeah. the breathing? i couldn't. yeah. you know when yeah. i, i wanted to cough and i couldn't yeah. because i couldn't take a okay. big breath. right. every time i took a big breath i were getting short pains all down this side? yeah. well it, it, not yesterday, the day before, i got them under my right shoulder blade, yeah. like, when i took a big breath it were the right, okay. we erm probably ought to do some blood tests too yeah. and a chest x-ray, and some antibiotics. are you not fit for work? well i should have started back yesterday no but, so you're not fit for work. you're not fit for work. don't often tell people they're not fit. i normally say how do you feel, but not in your case, i was worried about the, the work i, i couldn't get in to see you until today yeah. and i should have started back yesterday like. . do you think you can roll your sleeve up? have you had blood taken before? i think so yeah, but a while ago. right. which sleeve, left or right whichever you've got good veins in really. just er has anyone else been unwell with anything similar that you're aware of,? my son was about three week ago but it w it wasn't as bad as this, he got a bad cough and yeah. things like but he wasn't you're not taking any pills and tablets at all are you? no. only i have had those what the yeah, they obviously haven't worked. er i keep getting a lot of headaches and i think it's with the hacking and coughing i'm doing. i should think so and i just er you know i have paracetamol or aspirin. okay,one two three. i'm sure you've got one of these really strange chest infections, and these are the ones that tend to hit young, healthy, fit, young adults. yeah well it's rare for me to come to the doctor's but last three week i've been here like every week, kind of thing. mm. well they're not common but every now and again we see someone who looks like they've got a straightforward problem that doesn't get better. yeah. and it's the not, do you want to press over there? it tends to be the the not getting better with normal things that gives it away. yeah. and i'm sure when we do these blood tests we'll find that things are not altogether normal, now sometimes it's actually the way you respond to treatment that gives it away rather than mm. doing blood tests but er we're going to treat you somewhat differently. now we'll probably need to repeat some of these in about ten to fourteen days. the lab really want two samples. i'm going to ask them to run them today. to, well to run them now, they'll still take a week to come back, even if they do run them today, that's okay, isn't it? yeah. okay. the other thing you need is a chest x-ray, and that's very important er to see exactly what degree of trouble is going on. because there's an awful lot of rubbish to hear rattling around. we'll find there's a, quite a lot to see on a film. it's isn't it? yes, that's right. now if you nip down to the victoria hospital, if you know where that is in mansfield? yeah, the one it's called mansfield community yeah i know which one you mean, yeah. er you can go to the x-ray department there any day monday to friday, any time between nine and four thirty, so it's basically all day every day. okay? if you get yourself down there, they'll do a chest x-ray, you don't need an appointment, there should be minimal waiting time, in and out. okay? have i go that, have i to hang about for the re the recor the no they, they send it they'll sort it all out. they send the report to me. okay, yeah. okay. now it's important that we review you. you do need to be seen next week really. ah unfortunately i'm not here to follow you up cos i'm actually away next week, sorry about that. but you really do need to be seen next week to have a look at the initial blood results, the chest x-ray, more importantly, how are you getting on. that's more important. now this stuff is two a day, as a single daily dose, on an empty stomach, okay? for, i think we'd probably better keep you going for, how about six da hmm for five days, that's actually quite a long course for this stuff cos it lasts an awful long time in the body. so that's a, these are a pretty hefty dose of antibiotics. yeah. two a, a day as a single dose, strictly on an empty stomach so at least half an hour to an hour before food. yes okay for five days, boom boom boom boom boom. it's completely different from what you've had before. er if it upsets your tummy let us know, but that's actually very uncommon. this is the stuff i used for my sinusitis, it's wonderful. okay? it's not quite like domestos by mouth but it's not far short. if the blood tests show anything specific that we need to get back to you on, we will contact you directly. are you on the phone? yes. lovely, okay, and you need a note. i'm gonna put two weeks cos i'm sure you're not going to be g fit e you won't feel fit, okay, to go back that quickly, even if your chest is clearing rapidly. i'll put atypical chest infection. we may be able to actually narrow it down to a particular bug and that's what these are for. yeah. but er we will see. okay? thank you very much. so it's very important we get you seen next week, even if you feel a lot better. er note, chest x-ray do you want me to make an appointment next week, while i'm here? blood s yes i you'll have to see one of either doctor or doctor i'm afraid but er if i, if i write everything down they'll know exactly where we are and what's going on. okey-doke? thank you. not at all, take care of yourself. plenty to drink, ordinary wise. i would avoid alcohol even though they don't actually antibiotics, it'll probably make you feel more knackered than you already are. yeah. thanks. . right. right, thank you very much then. okay, take care of yourself. right, cheers. bye now. and in terrible conditions, erm, another country is zaire where there is currently, i mean i'd think there was a military coup or something there in the last few weeks, but these things are colonies which weren't connected to britain, hoping i'm being, i think it's a french colony, they use a belgian colony or is an ex belgian colony, maybe in belgium and france you would get more news about those two countries, but here we don't, because they, we haven't got that colonial connection that makes us interested perhaps erm and, and when we do find out about south africa because it used to be a colony, we do find out about, i mean ethiopia i think we found out about because of the disaster that's happening there in several of the countries all around it, used to be british colonies. but there are all sorts of reasons why we don't get that news, one guy said well if we wanted to do it i know if we wanted to make the news that, according to the level of human suffering we'd start off with ethiopia then we'd have the kurdish problem and you know just made a living of disaster areas around the world, he said we might of finished up with a light hearted discussion on the poll tax, you know as the, as the light, the lightener at the end of the news if you like, and our, what news we receive here depends on our perception of the world, but mainly it's the other way round our perception of the world is, is what, you know what it, or rather the news that we get actually manufactures our perception of the world. you can find out about world events if you read a good newspaper, somebody said to me yesterday in class well we don't get the news about these places, you do, you just don't get it on the t v, it's there in the guardian every day, it's there in the independent every day, quite a lot of it gets reported in the telegraph, but it's no good if you're reading the mirror, you won't get it in there, you won't get it in the mail or any other of those newspapers, the tabloids, but these things are happening, why would we be interested? why would we be interested in finding out these things? do you read the international section of papers then any of you? why not? boring pardon? boring boring, why is it boring? don't need newspapers anyway, who reads newspapers? what do you read? mm, mm and do you ever read the international section? yes, you find that you pick certain countries that you're interested in? okay what do you what about you? yeah, yeah, and you read them in the international section? yeah yeah no, no, that's right, don't you pick on particular issues or particular countries that you're interested in? sometimes i do, yeah, especially yeah, yeah yeah yeah and things like that why do you think that most of the people in this room don't read newspapers? do you do general studies? who does general studies? you should be reading newspapers mm, okay, you know that you can get the guardian cheap don't you? mm, mm okay, you also know about the editorial control of newspapers do you? were there any left newspapers in this country? is there anything other than the tory party line? don't know yes i do pardon? i think it's, well the yeah well it's today the mail and the guardian are the only ones that put anything other than the party line mm well, the party being the tory party, no matter which party's in power because they're all owned by tories basically, erm i hope nobody reads the sun, but i i'm not gonna ask who reads the sun, if you do i hope you're critical of it, especially page three erm, okay, but this information is there for you to find out about, the reason why i would say it's important to find out about those things, well one, you tell me why do you need that? okay, anybody got any other reasons why they think that maybe we ought to know what's going on in other countries, why, why would we be interested in the roots in kenya, india, why would we be interested in those countries? which do what for us? yeah yeah okay, can anybody think of anything that you eat, that comes from somewhere else? to eat or drink, got coffee, tea maize maize vegetables vegetables, oranges, you get oranges from israel and spain, you get pasta from italy you get lentils from ethiopia, did you know that? lentils coming from ethiopia, you get wheat from the states, rice from the states,ap apples from france, tea from india, coffee from brazil and columbia, sugar from the windward islands, bananas from all over the place, you know those are the things that keep us alive, no, you know, whether we one think they are or not, but i mean them things are what keeps the economy alive for one, it's also what keeps us personally alive if you don't know why we take an interest in third world issues, i would say that it's that, we're dependent on these countries, we could produce enough foods for our own needs, but we wouldn't have oranges, coffee, tea, sugar, you know cos we can't grow them in this country we, we really depend on those things to stay alive, and for that reason alone we should have some kind of interest, if you went to kenya for example they would be staggered at how little you know about their country given how much they know about yours they know a lot about this country, a lot of it is a bit loopy, but then what you know about their country is probably a bit off centre as well, and you know i hope that this is something that we're reversing in this section, our perceptions of the third world or the south or whatever we choose to call it, colour a lot of the things that we think and do and say and it increases the amount of racism that there is around us all, all those kind of things, erm and i think that it is really important to look at what a perception is, you know, for example what's your perception of this? what is it? just a piece of paper with writing just a piece of paper with some writing on it, just one piece of paper? a few a few bits of paper with some writing on it, what colour is it? john well okay, my perception of this is a yellow piece of paper with a map on it exactly, yeah and we can do that with everything, we can do that with everything, this is my perception and that's your perception of this thing that i'm holding in my hand, everything that we've seen have that ability you know, we've got the ability to do that with everything, what we need to do sometimes is walk around the issue if you like and look at it from another perspective and, and this is what we're doing with ethiopia, now, erm, the good section again was looking at images and particularly the fact that a lot of images are very negative and throwing an alternative view, the second section we're looking at news coverage which is very sketchy, erm, it doesn't provide a complete picture at all, and this third section well you saw what that's about there now, can you make sure you are somewhere where you can see this please. i'll tell you the reason why i like to record what we say, somebody came to our house thursday, did i mention it to you on the phone? yeah yeah and er they're doing some market research, this is what it's about, the national treasury of spoken english, a group of reading dictionary publishers and universities are participating in a government funded research project to compile a national treasury of the english language. for the first time dictionary writers and language researchers will be able to show how words are used in ordinary every day conversation. the british market research bureau, an independent market research agency, are asking a large cross section of people around the country to help with this task of, by recording their conversations. these will then be transcribed and computered and built into a database which will contain several million words. the case and conversation details will all be completely anonymous, so no one will know who has used the words or whose voice it is on the tape, but together they will provide a permanent record of how the english language was spoken in the nineteen nineties. so we can talk about what we want and you know what we're interested in, in the most so yeah it can be alright couldn't it then, them canaries yes are you ready in? yes it's all er, it's recording now thank you, oh mind you, you know, on the instructions it tells me mm to really, don't tell the people the recording's on mm until afterwards and if, if you want it wiping off after, well that's alright you know? mm mm i can go over the tape or wipe parts of it out mm so who's, who's it your handing it in then afterwards that thing then? some somebody come came to my house on thursday and what do they pay you? well they pay, they pay, they are paying me a little bit, i think it ought to go up in price a bit though myself he give, he give me, there's twenty tapes of you know, hour and a half each tape mm and there's twenty of them and the, i don't suppose, they don't expect me to fill both sides of all them tapes mm but he give them to me just in case i do mm mm he'll give me twenty five pounds worth of er, erm marks and spencer voucher marks yeah so what they going to do? is make it another grammar or er, opening the english language speech or er? well this is rather strange you should ask that question, cos i just bought, bought an engli er, erm dictionary mm about a month ago, and there's words in this dictionary er i said to myself oh fancy letting them, that's slang you know? mm, mm, mm perhaps, they probably think in another hundred and fifty years that slang will be the, the vocabulary of you know can i just for one minute, i only give example yes when i came to england i speak perfect italian yeah and i told the english language have got about fifty percent of roman ways roman? roman yeah latin yeah because i couldn't speak english at all, i speak the, i could read a paper or a book, i dunno what is all about, but i used to get because you got on it for instant like mm oh well the romans invaded england didn't they? wait a minute i, i show you, i show you something what is, what i mean supporting yes supporting any yes in, in italian it says supporto oh yes, yes erm plagued, no wait a minute plagued is horrible, animal, animal, animal, animal, animal, er misery, misery yeah miseria oh erm the first, er, for two hundred years the romans were here weren't they? eh brutal, er brute, er so many er only got a little bit more, eh sort of like you've got er, i dunno, accent or something or add to it a few words, a few letters i mean, er a more i, a different accent you go to manchester they said er different accent you go and so different one and to me from the beginning, not now, but from the beginning i was fascinate, i says why do they finish in italian er ways, or add, you switch and them coins, erm, it still says instead of the queen they say did you know that? yeah you know what this means the queen oh i didn't know and it's the, still in the roman, er, er weeds, no wait er region it something so round, rotondo mm problem problema, people, popelo, erm terrified, terrifico, terrified i think is terrifico, i'm not sure of this one suffering, suferto mm er, er in somebody did say, i don't know that history, but they said a roman er language eh today erm brittany yeah so that's, so that's, that so you see you haven't had a language then brought into a roman no, no no they didn't, no, no, no oh i can't speak very well english and i er you know my mother thinks er where is welsh language come from? i don't know, it's just got it somewhere from the east somewhere isn't it? somewhere in the east india the welsh one's er nepal from nepal, nepal they're speak fin language, do you know that? there roman time they, well as you know yourself a few hundred years they hope to find er nearly half of the world yes erm when they for britain the go to prison is, i mean the only people to go to mountain er was nepal and they left in wales and there they orin a region is from making oh yes from himalayan anyway that er oh it's, it's, it's an amazing isn't it when you think of all these languages, if erm, if they all come from adam and eve mm then you'd think they would be just one language wouldn't you? mm, when we have it this morning er talk, er in watch tower but he you know about when, when er jehovah confuse them because they want to what's the word, they'd er, they'd what's erm mm just have a look er genesis is it? mm just have a look genesis now then genesis where the one says, now all you continue to be of one language and of one set of words so where did all of the other languages come from? it goes on to say and it came about that in thy journeying eastward they eventually discovered a valid plain and a land of shinar and they took up growing there and they began to say each one to the other come on let us make bricks and bake and bake with a burning process, so bricks served as stone for them and served as malter for them. now they now said come on let us build ourselves a city and also a tower with its in the heavens and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves for fear we may be scattered all over the earth , well that was god's command wasn't it there they said be scattered all over the earth mm, yeah and they didn't want to be scattered all over the earth so they built this er, he wanted to make, to make a name for themselves didn't they? mm come on might as well er sell the city or sell the town in the heavens to make, and let us make it celebrated name for ourselves it's, people today have just got the same attitude haven't they? they have to make names for themselves, so it mentions about, it says jehovah verses and jehovah proceeded to go down to see what they see, to see the city and they tell that the sons of man have gods, after that jehovah said look there are one people and there is one language for the north and this is they start to do, why now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unobtainable for them, come now let us go down and their confuse their language , he'd be speaking to angels now wouldn't he mm or to jesus and to confuse their language that they may not listen to one another 's language and accordingly jehovah scattered them from there over all the surface of the earth so, and that was god's purpose for them to be er spread out all over the earth cos god knew that city life would only break down and all these centuries have passed since then and there's urgent proof throughout the year, the cities, the cities don't work so god had his own way, give it, the one, his way is the only one that works and thus when we pray for this king of columbia that only face over and our kingdoms that we have today, so one thing about language. yeah now that, you speak the russian language don't you er, i'm saying this now for the benefit of the tape yeah explain, speak their russian language and when he came like, he said, he was saying it's not, so he promised again he was saying well he, he telephoned me week after didn't he? he said he's at the home and everything's going alright and he's saying he's already sent us the, the, the invitation, but i have no invitation haven't arrived yet i have nothing here, but i mean you said ukraine already to buy it, they're not allowed calls, telephone calls, not out, not in, closed postage as well so it must be something stuck in there oh yes for i don't think advice er, what time you said will be in use? it's not very good even now they ought mm, turn back the ukrainian talk now, and they tried to get rid of yeltsin oh yes mm is it, is it on the telly now? or what times does it come on? well until, er quarter to ten will be one and then ten ten past no, be nine nine forty five i think oh yes i want so it's not very good, i'm not surprised so you'd better be er i, i wouldn't go no no it's too dangerous no i wouldn't go we going revolution in there and if we're going to australia instead we're going to australia or jamaica somewhere well you know really i can't, i can't see any point in staying around here myself, yeah, it's just my mum really, if anything happened to her then i'll move you know i'd move from newcastle, stoke on trent area how old is your mum? eighty six oh that is big age, is she still with you or in a home? she's in a home this one, no, oh no this is is she in a no, she, no, nobody never so mm very, very confusing this is, the world is going upside down and he don't know what's going to happen next you see, for instance looking a year ago, two years ago the wall, the berlin wall was standing and the russian empire was feared, all over the world, and now this day, it just fell on its face that's just two years ago yeah yeah it just fell on its face and it's such a shame that the land like that er, er rich in everything, neglected themselves to that state that they're begging for food yes it's, it's unbelievable, unbelievable yes but yet when you look in book of daniel which, where tau he talks about er the north king and the south king yes it does there, there, there be fighting and shoving and pushing for the power and then it says there that it will look as though the, the north king will take all over, all over the what, what spread all over the earth and then it says gradually he will go right back to his ho go home, gradually will be stepping back, right back to his home and there's going to be no helper for him yes look what happened the communist just fell, fell on his face without a one shot it's amazing that is anna isn't it? it really is amazing, that was, what you said, how long ago was it those? two years and no no with the, the, daniel was living, you know, you know better than i do how many years, how many centuries daniel was living before jesus' birth then? he were, it was way before jesus wasn't he? mm that's it way before jesus then so it was , the prophecy was written then by daniel for our, for our time and it just happened in our, because you know er, when he was er, when he finished the book write written and he said i have seen the, the, the erm visions and i've heard the voice, but i, and i've written down what i was told to do, but i do not understand and then the voice said to him well close that down, that book is not for you to understand, the generations that it's written for, it's written for the end of the times, they will come to understand it, and you see we actually witnessing what's happening yeah the, what daniel wrote there it's happening in our time yes, but when you, when you say it's the end of time it's, you get some people saying yes it's always the end, for some country it's always er collapses or what me have you, it's always then for some government or country mm but now this is the end for worldwide isn't it? yeah like, the old listen this is the end for the er political system, you see the half of it is collapsed already the, the north king so you see what's happening in the, in the, er south king oh yes hmm i mean erm, was it nineteen eighty seven? when the stockmarket flopped yeah yeah and i did hear, somebody told me like that the reason erm house prices shot up, you went three times as a a as high in value in what a matter of moments yes and somebody said it was because since the stockmarket flopped people drew out and put the money in building societies, building societies were bursting at the seams, didn't want to, and banks as well, didn't know what to do with all this money, so, somebody went in for a loan and asked for fifty thousand and come out with a hundred thousand, they couldn't get it out, give it to people, a lot, a lot of people that really er weren't safe gambles mm and now the er, they're not paying back, and the houses have come down and so what people are doing, or some people that have bought these houses, they're just giving the keys back and repossessing the house mm cos if they decide to sell it now they couldn't no and that was that the, it's probably thirty thousand less in price mm and he probably hadn't paid that much anyway so he has to go out the house mm probably hadn't paid that much, so these peo the ones that lent the money out, in really they er, and they really have suffered just, they probably thought that if we don't lend them the money somebody else will and get the interest and they'll grow bigger and much overtake us, you know, to, to take over our business, so er, so the agreed that they've lent this money out, but it's bounced back you see, it's bouncing back on them, and this, everything's bouncing back on everybody now, but it seems mm to be that way doesn't it? everything seems to be failing. erm, i remember years ago, well, well, say months ago, erm, one of the local estate agents were writing in one of the property news i think it was or the advertiser, saying now is the time to buy, erm, whereas twelve months ago, now's the time to buy because they gonna start going up again, well since they've had that, that wrote in the paper, they've come down even more oh so these local experts, you can't believe what they say the only way really is to, the scriptures don't they say give us an accurate er description of what's mm happening in our time but, but and you think of what it says in two timothy with the mm, mm that's typical of our days isn't it? mm too typical, typical of us now. love is of money, love is of pleasure and love is of everything about god in command, yeah uses it yeah chained up, such a beautiful, beautiful countries and just go to, to any, to any length to be destroyed. yes. and you know this time when i went on a plane and i looked down, i wasn't saying it to ben no and i said to my husband why people want to go paradise of heaven, i says look down, how beautiful, it is really beautiful all green is yes it is isn't it? yeah then going over this sea blue and i was, so beautiful,you know catholic used to say, when you di died in paradise, always want to go up the somewhere else paradise and it's in here and look what happened they ruin and ruin and ruin and so be well it's against the bible's prophecy isn't it? yeah, yeah you know the way said have an i think that'll be to . yeah shame when, when were you thinking if you went to going to canaries, any time? there's plenty, a lot of money in hundred dollar notes oh we were going you, you, you we were going to go canaries but then we, just now we were looking at what, what did we, what was it jamaica jamaica oh yes or erm, anyway i've got a friend help me to barbados barbados oh barbados, but we have to seen if their teletext if they let us do, but i've just talked to jamaican people and they said their, their friend he got some contact wanting some order, then later on this lady says no it's best thing to do go to air tours air tours, they said me it's no use going somebody you don't know, you maybe seen them through they might take your money and that's it. oh jamaica you know it'll be cost dearer to get there won't it? but er i think erm the pound goes a lot further there, you'll probably fe but i'd probably feel like a millionaire in jamaica mm cos, it was like in the, the same with poland wasn't it? mm yeah but i got by these people who've been to jamaica, says that he gi if you give five pound tip for there, there what's erm they don't like it, it's not enough, they won't speak to you no more. five pound tip is not enough i'm not going there i won't, i won't give them a tip if that's the attitude they said the best way to give them yeah no it's too cold in england, might go somewhere mind you, you say it's too cold, this last few years, you know we're not being, oh we had some snow last year didn't we? mm but when i was younger it's a lot a lot warmer now than it was, i remember when we came yeah to england it was a terrible few winters i remember really hard ones yes but now this last few years we, it's a lot warmer winter than we, than we remember at the beginning yes so it shows that er, you know, the globe is warming up, even in russia where i went, my mother, where i, where i was staying at er dunyask, there was five metre snow sometimes in the, it, it came and it just blocked your windows, it blocked your doors and you were inside the house and you couldn't get out yes unless somebody comes and gets you out and there's, there's nothing like it now they have insist operation now it's exciting though when you get deep snow isn't it for a little while, yes ? yeah i suppose er yeah, but it freezes that quick that when it falls overnight and then by the morning it frozen so hard that you can walk on top of it yes and not go through you know in a while you'll go through and not stay there you'd freeze to death wouldn't you? oh no you don't freeze when you're in the snow, you don't freeze because it's colder in the snow than it is, er it's, warmer in inside the yes snow than it is on top. yes, yes that's right, it is, yes, it's true that. how's the, it's a nice change for me to come to crewe on thursday oh yes what brought you then? well this, a couple of things that er took me there, erm you know dagfields farm, i don't think, you know dagfields farm? no i know i, you go to boar's head towards there, i know where that is yes yes, well you know, as you come to the boar's head you can, it's on a crossroads isn't it? yes now, going from thackley yeah up to the boar's head yeah go straight over the road, past, over the crossroads and straight over yeah you come to dagfields farm about a quarter of a mile up there i see and they do erm buy a sack of potatoes after that farm on the way to mountwich? yes yeah erm mary can you get to mountwich turning right? you can as well you can yeah what yeah do you go straight over, coming from yeah say your, er, er, and erm because there was no money in potatoes he, his sheds etcetera and his barns, he's converted them and he's letting them off as craft places mm, mm and you've seen one of his craft places where i met this lady, she sort of works there or two days a week and mm she serves teas and so erm, i could do with somebody seeing her mm even though for the next little bit i'll be seeing her myself as well, but, somebody has to go, only an added incentive so, so isn't it? mm, mm er what's it say how glorious er what's it say about good news er, the feet, how come we are the feet of those who yeah er bring good news yeah mm have good things mm and erm i'll be, we knit jumpers as well there, cardigans and as pick them a cardigan i bought from blacks in newcastle mm, mm this cardigan was sixty two pounds, but it's really nice, you know, and it's, i'm saying this you could make me one the same mm, mm you know, but she, er i had to leave her my cardigan and she's gonna phone me when i go back mm but erm how going, i said i don't know mm how do you know er brother er what's his name er john brian brian yeah erm and pamela i got to know them, erm can you remember he died, he was living in oh you were thinking of bert yeah oh i used to know bert hmm that, that wasn't what you it wasn't that it was another i don't know and er, what's it, fancy him mentioning and bert he was erm, he was cr he was a nice brother, wasn't he? mm and his wife, what's his wife now her name, somebody in the bi bible named her, her oh i, i can't remember mm can't remember her but, but this, i'd like to know brother james from this other brother taylor, and that's he's always been er sort of s a strong wave sort of opinionated sort of person, cos he's changed all that, well i can tell by talking to him last week mm he's changed a lot, you know, he isn't the same person, you know he's sort of more humble well he's a ministerial servant at last he was just sitting there and nothing you know for years since i've came into the truth, he was, he wasn't doing at all nothing and then lately erm, because he did, he did have a business and then he had er some pigeons er racing pigeons and all he was all involved more in making money and er you know, and then gradually he's got rid of er, of the things that will actually er took a lot of his time, so he spent a lot of time with his family and with in the so er with his ministerial servant. i, i am friendly with them you know i, i go every wednesday there, for er, well when i can,every wednesday because something, something always creeps up on a wednesday to keep away from them, er, sort of for tea and then with for the thursday meeting like, you know did you see that oh yes, after funeral you know my husband we went to erm, like the reception bury, you know in his house he offered the house for all the brothers to come in and they would laid out er sandwiches and the cakes and er quiche that you've made and er different, different things you know, we all went to back to their house. it was all the rooms upstairs wasn't they? yeah, eh? there was all the rooms upstairs, a big house wasn't it? oh you, he's got another one yes, yeah, he so he sold that house for it's a, it's an old people's home now private is it? old people's home, he sold that one on the way to latent park yes hospital, latent hospital yes on er, on er, oh he sold that a long time ago, he's built a bungalow now they live yes in a bungalow now, beautiful house is it? yeah, you haven't been in the new no bungalow then? oh before he built that bungalow yeah he went in, he bought a council house didn't he? yes and, and that inside out. yes, yes he, that was his business to buy the houses run down and then re re renovating them and then selling them off again you know, but it was good when the houses weren't in prices up, but now when they go down is er, he's not doing very well just now, you know? no he said he wasn't when we spoke to him yeah but that house, er at was it about a hundred thousand he sell that for? one hundred and twenty thousand i think oh was they and then about ten months later that house would of gone for three hundred thousand yes so he sold it in a wrong time he could have, he could have hold on to it another few months and got a lot of money for it mm but it was er private people sort of somebody er, how you call those they did first and then they , yeah and then they couldn't keep up er you know, keep up so yes they sold it and somebody bought and er they made it into private er the er three hundred thousand was it yes yeah yeah they snapped it up at that price that his er sold and then they couldn't pay er when, when the time came, you know the everything went off, so they sold it and bought something else and they've made a lot of money on that so they've paid it off and have er a lot of money on the house yes that's how people live these days, you know, my daughter did the same thing with her husband, you know, they're in a they had bought the house, erm in erm north uphall, a big mansion like, you know, and er, he had the business in the, he built the business in the stables, there was like the stables so he renovated and got it, it out and renovated and made a business er engineering business, er, oh, hatch, like with the house and they only paid er seventy eight thousand when they bought it and then when they've sold it they've got about three hundred and eighty thousand for that and he er, hire, hired now the, you know these units oh yes he put his business, he, he hired the, a unit, bought a unit and put the business in the unit somewhere er away from the house and they bought a house for one hundred and eighty thousand and she says and i've got a lot of money in the bank now, so, she says i don't have to work, but the business they want to sell it, and nobody's buying yes because of recession, but as soon as er anything will change he, he said billy said that he wants to, to get rid of it because they want to go buy an now what's the business? what commodities? engineering yeah yeah, pumps and seals and er different things, all, all kind of pumps, water erm water, gas, erm petrol pumps every everything whatever you know, and they're making their own, it's not, they not just, he buys the rough er the, what yeah, and they make their own, he's got all the machinery and all, all the people they make their own pumps oh he's genned up then isn't he? oh yeah, yeah so let's hope people get rid quick knowing when and how oh, er, i don't know so much about knowing when and how so much, cos it i mean who'd thought prices of houses would then go up as they did, you know, and there's er, i knew er a young women that was buying a house and these people said oh, oh it's, we're not just ready to move yet, we're not, and during this time daisy said were rocketing up in price and she couldn't afford one after mm she couldn't afford it and they still didn't sell, them people kept her waiting and waiting mm you know, prices were moving, prices were moving up, she could afford at the beginning, what the price daisy went up to, she couldn't afford, she's renting somewhere now mm i know when we've er sold the house, when our children all went and left us, the house was for three bedrooms, right, and i, i said to my husband i don't want to stay here because they built the school outside behind our er, erm back yard, and every, all the rubbish that kids throw threw over and i said to him i don't want to stay now kids, kids gone, children gone leave, left home, got married and went to off, i said i don't want to live here, i don't want to retire to, to stay at home and listen to the kids at school all day long and have the rubbish thrown over the hedge so we started to look for something and i wanted a bungalow, i didn't want to house again, just the two bedrooms i thought would be nice, so what we did we found this bu er this bungalow in er out of crewe in haslington and er we put up our house for sale, it cost seventeen thousand, five hundred and this bungalow we bought seventeen thousand, six hundred and fifty, so all i had to add was one hundred and sixty pounds, to sell the house, but the house needed change all the windows to put all the windows and the doors because they were all rotting in, you know, because the houses built er before the second world war and er what we did we put up the and in three months' time, it in three months' time my house went and we were moved, in september we started to sell, in january we'd been living in the, in the new bungalow and then about three years later they built a row of bungalows on the other side where there should, should of been, they kept the land, it should of been shops, but then they changed their minds, they did, they didn't build the shops, but they built all these bungalows again on the other side, you've been to my home, yeah, so the road that, over the road these bungalows were about three years later than ours and they were going down for thirty two thousand pound, and i bought mine for seventeen thousand seven sixty at six fifty, yeah i'm quite surprised this about jane eh? er, i'm surprised this about jane oh jane , yeah well she's been, she's been suffering with that back a long, long time what with her back? yeah why, why are you surprised? what did, what have you well they do not attending meeting? she supposed to be one of the, of the remnant and i, i can't understand myself that, because she was baptised together, the same time as i was yeah but er, i dunno do you know jane from your youth? yes erm , erm i think i knew her from about six years ago when i oh there up her house a time or to where she used to work mm, mm open up the one, open up the one at erm bridgemere bridgemere yeah and i've been up the one before that yes, yes well we can't talk you see, we don't know, we don't know what's happening, but she's been suffering a lot with her back just now and she put that off you know that because she's not attending the meetings, she can't sit, and if she comes to the meetings she can't sit down, she stands up, props herself against the wall and stand up right at the back so, we don't know you see how old is? she's er about forty int she? i think so, yeah she's not, she's not old if if thought she, she was baptised at the same time as i was, you know, er, the same day, manchester assembly, that was nineteen seventy four seventy five no, seventy four, yeah how many do, do you're not, you, i, what i was gonna say is, are you interested in a caravan at rudyard? bought it, i don't know one for sale now, you know, but for the price they are and for the rent it's very reasonable. the one i'm in, i get paid four hundred pound for it yeah and the rent, when i, i'm going back six years now, the rent to leave it there for twelve months was only seventy pound a year mm so that was an extraordinary low price, it's gone up now, two hundred and fifty four mm but that's only three pound a week and it's beautiful there? where is that? rudyard rudyard beautiful leeke, outside leeke, i used to wait that most er yeah, but there's no sea or anything yeah, a lake no it's there's a lake a lake a lake that's six miles all the way down oh erm and the beauty of it is, it only takes, from here it only takes half an hour to get there mm you know there's rigid lake hotel there, it's quite a nice place, where you can have a meal mm, mm erm, you can have a lovely meal for three pound six well we were going to buy er a caravan when my wa er just, just before my husband died we were sort of looking for a caravan, we had gone and paid a deposit, we should have picked it up on a saturday and he go, he died on a friday, so i had to cancel and er only this week er i told you didn't i, that they paid my deposit back because it was genuine tragedy, i, i didn't sort of er made it up that i, you know, sometimes you've paid a deposit and then you've changed your mind yes you lose your deposit yes but this time it was a genuine tragedy so he paid me all deposit i put in, he paid me all back, you know, i don i didn't want i don't want to go caravanning by myself mm it was he that choose it, it was he that wanted it and you see it's just worked out that he didn't use it. and there's, you know, there's no motorways near rudyard, there's no well there's a main road, there's only a couple really and the, the air is a lot better because there's lots of trees there and er, it's, you know, if you ever feel bad i go there and i feel different within hours, you know, because the air's so much better. mm do you know erm i think he was in crewe at one time oh harold yes harold yes yes you know harold? cos he got married didn't he, er i know he our surprise yeah our surprise why, why, people in his age want to get married? well companionship how old was? he was in his eighties, he's ninety or something eighty four eighty four when he got married yeah but i, i er he he, he married quite quickly after he lost his other, his wife didn't he? yeah quick. it's only way you can get over erm tragedy i should say when he married quick because he got another compan for the life he locks himself inside er walls, you never even but i don't want to forget him, it's not you forget it save your own life, you see er irene one wales, er she's greek, she's only a young woman, she lost her husband i think two years ago and she's already, cos you needs, delicate and people, people keep on thinking that you, you, you don't want nobody then, you land in a mental home or stroke or, or something you're alright, you, you've been for fifteen years and where have i landed, i've landed in convent i left home i got i got you, i won't land in a convent for you've got me like convent like a nun and see somebody else called me mum that's nice oh dear look and er, and had there been catholic nun oh dear it's still painful, it's only what, what's today, eleventh? well the eighteenth another week, it's already been three mo three months, so it's still fresh isn't it? can't forget that can you? well to me it's still not real, sometimes i think oh i'm just here and i'll go home and i'll see him and then when you get there it's just four walls that's when it hits you when it hits most yes most hate me night, when i've been out and somebody said you have evening, go and see somebody in evening and then i go, don't mind in day time come back mm but if i come back in night time i have to put that light on and it's empty yeah, yeah that's my fear coming, that's what makes me run away from her, i was so scared it seems to be either come like, what you call? what? frightened of er, like you got, going in a high place, or when you fear yeah, yeah when i put light on you see it's like being chopped in two innit? it's tedious isn't it, er, you know mm, yes it is i mean er you know er what in the bible says and er to get together for god put a woman and a man together and they become one flesh you read it, you think you understand what it is, but you don't really understand until you lose your partner yes and then you become to understand that, that half of you just disappeared, the way i feel i felt like it's just a shell left and all the inside just gone out and i've mm lost something and i can't, i can't find it and i'm looking and i'm, and ee, and er, a bit of a noise or anything i'm looking backwards is coming and then i realize he's not there any more to come and then other days i just feel like i'm dangling in the air and can see the, the ground and i can't touch it with my feet, just somewhere right, right out, it's not real, not real you know and then you go, you get back to with a bump and know that it's real and then it just feels left, nothing else, you can't help yourself in any other way. no you've done very well to survive as well you have had a now, haven't you? mm you know and i have mind you the scriptures say they don't definite your sting and, can you explain that? er what? it says in here erm i know where does your sting yes ah that's after when you, when jehovah was going to destroy it the death, yes? yeah destroy death, in other words there'll be no more dying that's right yeah the, the yeah so when you the, man is the question where is he, where is your sting? because it's going to finish one of those days it's going to be this few then like you have now like won't be there will it? yeah. but just think what about you see, what about the people that haven't got the hope that you have? this is what i was thinking, what would i have, how would i feel now if i didn't have the truth yes i'd be a real loss yes you know i can understand now the people that haven't got the truth, when one of the, the mate, when the mate dies whether a woman or a, or a, or a husband dies, they want to die, they don't want to live because i felt that, i felt that, what's there, what's there me left to live, my kids they're, they have their own families, there all time, they have no time, i brought up three children, i have a full time job and i have time for every one of them to look after and to bring them up and to set them on their way to live and not one of them became a prisoner or something, you know, they're all have nice jobs and, and nice kid nice people, one, nobody's in the truth the boys but now they're all set up and i'm left alone and the children, three of them, haven't got time to look after me to give me what i, what i need and especially one in the truth, that one is less getting in touch with me than the ones that told me the truth, boys ring me, twice, three times a week, julia rings every, every night, but ted rings twice or three times a week, three times i could go, the one the truth should be er help for me now, give me, give me a support or something and from her i could go about two weeks not hearing at all, no phone call, nothing. i don't think they realize do they, and, and she probably thinks oh her mum's down the street, she knows she's gonna come back, you know, she's alright, she's alright and doesn't mat yeah, but no one is allowed to go to sleep during this talk simply because we want you to stay awake, physically and this will help you spiritually. but staying awake sometimes is very, very difficult to do isn't it? you'd recognize this if you are a driver and especially a driver who maybe has the opportunity of travelling long distance, now years ago when i was younger and perhaps some of you in the audience when you were younger, you could go from here to the south of england with no trouble, without a break and you'd head on down the motorway and you, you'd be alert and alive and er ready to meet up with all sorts of emergencies and you'd drive quite well all the way down, non stop down the south of england, but if you're like me now, when i get to stafford on the motorway you're beginning to feel as if you've had enough and it's difficult to try and keep your concentration as you used to years ago, and that's how it can be in the truth sometimes, when we've been with it a long time that, we grow older not only physically, but spiritually too we become very experienced in the truth and we become very sort of fat spiritually, we can live off of that fat can't we? and er we can get by on lots of things and when an emergency does come, sometimes we can cope with it if it's not too big a one, but other times it can catch up with us, simply because we are only sort of half awake so the purpose of the talk today is to try and help us all to see various ways in which we can stay awake in the truth physic er, er spiritually speaking. we say don't we that, that the new ones that come along and then they really say to the truth, they're alive aren't they? they are spiritually awake and they sometimes put us to shame because they seem to make strides so fast that we have a job to keep up with them, they want to do this, they want to do that, they get baptized they want to auxiliary pioneer and before you know where the, where you are they're in the regular pioneer ranks, and that's lovely to see isn't it? but as we said earlier that some of us who have been in the truth for a long time we were like that years ago, but somewhere along the line we've become drowsy and a little sort of halfhearted and maybe dozing a little bit as we go down that sort of motorway er of spirituality and that, that the longer you go it can become more difficult because other things come along don't they? like physical ailments and er our, our, our physical body doesn't work like it used to, and as you do get older there is a tendency to more to, to need more rest, we can't do what the young ones er do, and we would love to do that and that goes along with what the council and the doesn't it? it, do it now while you're young, while you've got your strength, because there will come days when you look around and you think well i just wish i could do that again, and that's the way we're made, and that's the way it will always be in this system of things, but there's lots of little things that we, you and i, can work on to help us to stay spiritually alert, vigilant and awake. now in the scriptures, we're gonna have a look at a few because the scriptures counsel us time and again, er that we are living in difficult times, we know that and it can become difficult to stay spiritually alert and awake and that's why constantly throughout the scriptures you'll find that we're er counselled and encouraged to stay awake, stay awake and as we sang stand firm and, and grow mighty spirits, the first one is in romans chapter thirteen. most of the scriptures we'll be looking at today is very familiar with us we know them and some of them we may be able to recite without even looking at the words, but er, if we can try and get you to think a little bit about them, then we've achieved something, if we can get you to think that, you know, well am i dozing or am i really awake as i should be, then we'll achieve more, in verse eleven it speaks there about er, you people knowing the season, well what people are we talking about? us isn't it? it's within the congregation, paulo was writing, not to those outside but to those dedicated baptized brothers and sisters in the trees, said you know the season that it is already the hour for you to awake so he was speaking to spiritual people, spiritually minded people and yet here he is telling them to be awake, awake from sleep or slumbers, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became the leavers, and that's true with us all if you came into the truth yesterday, the time that much nearer now isn't it? because you can never go back to yesterday, if you came in last year or five years ago, ten years ago or longer, some of you have been in the truth for many, many years and it is nearer now than it ever was when you first came along and joined jehovah's people and as it says the night is well along and if any of us have ever worked on the night shift, i think we're all well aware aren't we that when the night is well along and you're coming near to the end of your shift you're not waking up because it's getting near morning whereas everybody else is, you're finding it much more difficult to carry on because you've gone through the whole night working, the night is well along and it becomes increasingly more difficult to stay awake so physically, spiritually, whatever way you look at it, it is certainly very difficult to stay awake in the truth today, but it isn't that difficult and it isn't er a hurdle that none of us can overcome, jehovah says that his load is light, jesus echoed that didn't he and it is true that if we do jehovah's will, jehovah's way, then it will be made light for us, he will help us to stay awake, but he's not going to allow us to slumber and drift off into obscurity, but it all comes back in hinges upon us and that's why the counsel is in verse thirteen as a day, as in a day time look, let us walk decently so we have to do something don't we? walking means exercise, walking means effort, you and i have to do something to keep ourselves spiritually awake, going back to our illustration again about the car driver on the motorway, you find yourself after so many miles just dozing off because the road is so straight, not much traffic around, not much to think about apart from the countryside that goes by and you're there foot on the accelerator, no braking, no gear changing, nothing at all and you get to the point where you're driving one-handed by the thing, that's the time when you get so relaxed isn't it? that you can easily lose your concentration and go off to sleep and so it is in the truth, so we need to stay awake, stand firm for almighty, be vigilant and again in the scriptures we could look up half a dozen scriptures in the christian greek scriptures to show that we need to keep spiritually awake and it uses different terminology you've heard me use some already, remember the one in verse peter four, verse seven? it tells us there to be vigilant, vigilant with a view to prayers, isn't that staying awake? anyone who's vigilant knows what's going on and they're aware of what's happening, so again it, it shows that we must do something as they said on that motorway, the thing to do when you feel yourself going into drow drowsiness is, is stop the car perhaps, get out and have a walk round, do something, i know i, er in the past when i've felt myself going off to sleep in those situations, i've been pinching myself and, and really making yourself do something rather than just sitting there doing nothing, cos that's the way we just go off and get lowered into sleep and our lives are involved in this, we've read and heard about people that have gone to sleep on motorways haven't they? where have they finished up? crashing the car, taking someone else's life with them, terrible situations, terrible tragedies can come about because a person physically goes to sleep so it can be in a spiritual sense that we can nod off to sleep and not only our lives are involved, but our fellow brothers' and sisters' too, especially if we have a, a responsible position within the congregation, because if we nod off, those of us who are elders, than others lives can be terrifically involved can't they? because we are not doing what we should be doing, we'll hear a little bit more about that later, another one in matthew twenty six and verse forty one, keep on the watch and pray continually, notice our new year's text is all about prayer isn't it? rejoice in the hope i had, that's lovely isn't it? thinking about the, the, the hope ahead but what have we got to do? we've got to persevere in prayer, which means effort doesn't it? so in everything that we do and staying spiritually awake, we have to do something, it all comes back to you and i at the end of the day, no one else can do it for us we sometimes think well, well, so and so can help, i mean this is true to a degree, but at the end of the day it all comes back to us doesn't it? we're the ones that have said to jehovah i am dedicating my life to you, i am going to do this, do that and the other and it's up to us as to whether we do it, so it requires effort, first , five, six, also says let us stay awake, keep our senses first peter, five, eight keep your senses, be watchful and then first corinthians, ten, twelve which i think the song was based on let him think that he is standing, beware, beware, beware that he does not fall , if you think things are going along nicely and you're in a comfortable little corner, a little niche in the truth, and it's just how you like it, and it's just the way you want it to be and there's the time we need to be aware because there's an opening for satan to get into to make us fall. now going back into the hebrew scriptures, you'll find there that this sort of staying awake counsel, an idea was there long before the days of jesus and the apostles and people's lives were involved in its state, even in those days, let's just let us have a look at one, isaiah forty two eighteen to twenty now this terms it slightly different, but when you look at it and analyze it, you realize he's talking about exactly the same thing, it's regarding the nation of israel who turned away from jehovah, they weren't doing what they should be doing, or should've been doing as he's pleading with them look there, that look here, here you deaf ones, well we know the nation of israel weren't all physically deaf, they were like we are, perhaps had a few deaf individuals amongst them, but generally speaking the nation had good ears, they knew what was what and they listened quite well, hear you deaf ones he's describing them and look forth to see you blind once verse twenty it was a case of seeing many things, but you did not cheat watching and daniel, verse twenty five, look it says there a little phrase near, half way through that he took no note, the nation took no note of what was happening at that time, but we know what happened to them, many of them, thousands, a million of them lost their lives didn't they? because they were overthrown and the others were taken off into captivity into battle life, and what a life they had, the one of slavery, so at that time because they took no note, because they were destiny instructions to jehovah for his word and again want to see, they had eyes, but they just didn't want to see it they knew, all the whys and wherefores and what the responsibilities were, but they didn't measure up to them and because of that many of them lost their lives, and if they didn't they were taken into captivity, jeremiah four, in verse twenty two, again another prophecy sent to them exactly over the same message, the same reasons describes to them as being a, er people that is foolish and of me they have taken no notice jeremiah four and verse twenty two. in noah's day, if you go back to noah's day it was exactly the same now, isn't that what jesus said justice in the days of noah, so it will be in there somewhere, they were eating and drinking and marrying and doing all the things that you, you know, you and i do today isn't it? and what is it, they took no note and the flood came and swept them all away. so it's been no different dying through time, the counsel has been there because jehovah knows that we're all of falling flesh aren't we? we're all prone to do that, were all prone to take the line of least resistance and you find this not just in the truth but in any sort of community in life, in any area of life that wish to go, you, you may find this at work or at school, you youngsters, there's always a little johnny at the back isn't it, that, that will fit in the back row and think if i'm back here teacher won't notice you see, were act were actually tuck himself up in the corner and er think well if i'm, if i'm up here nobody will notice me and see the day goes by and er we don't have so much to do, those are the type of people that in, in, in a physical life er sort of going to sleep aren't they, they don't want to accept responsibility and we, we find even in the truth, you'll always find it in congregations like we have here in our congregation, we're not different, we're all the same aren't we, we're all flesh and we're all imperfect and we're all prone to doing or wanting to do the things that are different or you know than, than what jehovah wants us to do and we all want to tuck ourselves up a little corner sometimes and yet we shouldn't be like that and this is what the scriptures tell us and warn us about to put ourselves headlong into the truth, be whole sole, be awake, be alert, be vigilant to the things that are going on and there's a lot going on in the truth at this particular time, things are changing, the scriptures tell us that the scene of the world is changing and that's true isn't it? it changes so fast and here's we have a job to keep up with it. did you know jehovah's organizations always changes, not with it, but to combat it that way it comes to work, it keeps us alive, it keeps us on our toes, and so we could go on and on in saying well look keep away, stay awake and do everything that we should and, and we can stand here for the rest of the talk saying well do it, do it, do it but that's easy for me to do that isn't it? to tell you what to do but it's also knowing how to do it, because sometimes especially if we knew in the truth, we don't always know what to do and if we're very young you see, we're, it's, it's one thing being told isn't it? but another thing to be shown how to do it and that's what, really what we want to try and do for the rest of the talk is to not just keep preaching at you and telling you what to do, but to show you how, so that's the purpose of the talk from now on, now in this outline there are, i've got about fourteen different points here and it'll highlight ways in which we can er stay awake, what i'm going to do is to read straight through them and then we'll go back and pick a couple out, because it's impossible to concentrate on the entire er amount, so we'll do that, it's er a number of things we can do to keep virtually awake keep up with the food at the proper time from jehovah's organizations that's studying and things like that isn't it? they come up to meetings which erm, this goes on to say determine not to miss a single spiritual meal both private study, meeting attendance are urgent for all, there's nothing new here brothers it's all things that we've heard before and this is why sometimes we can sort of nod off because we, we sort of think well i've heard all this before,follow theocratic ways, procedures and policies not always easy to do, but it can be done,recognizing the organization that jehovah is using keep awake by finding your place in god's arrangement that isn't that little corner up there, by the way, we're not talking about that one, but finding our place where we can work for jehovah wholeheartedly do not quibble about assignments and arrangements i think we're all guilty of that at some time aren't we? perform well whatever assignments you have, trust god's angels to remove and replace where necessary when things aren't being done in a congregation as you think that they might be or should be done, or you might think well the, why don't the elders do something about this, we'll leave it, leave it to jehovah and the angels, if there's anything wrong, they'll sort it out and they'll make the elves sort it out as well, they have ways and means, again coming back to this new text here persistence in prayer shows you are awake the spirituals so there's another way jesus was outstanding in its constantly regarding prayers keep awake by field ministry and here's a rare one in any public talk financial contributions financial, we don't hear that very often in public talks, we, we always say that there's, er people come to the meetings, there's no collection, no mention of money, the seats are free, you're free to come and go and er there is a contribution that's held at the back, but here in, in the talk it's highlighting their various ways, this is one of them that we can keep spiritually awake is by being aware of the need for financial contributions, jehovah has done much for us through his organization and we can show love for him by full support with our time and finances and then another one look stay awake by showing love to you and act loyal sometimes it's easier to show love to some in the congregation than others, we naturally have an affinity for one another and certain types of personalities seemed to gel with others don't they? and it's easier to get along with brother so and so and sister so and so, but for goodness me i find, i find it ever so difficult to talk to sister so and so and there's an area perhaps that we can er think about,stay awake by being respectful and obedient and that's something that is very important because it's completely opposite in the world today, respect for all authority and obedience to it is absolutely gone by the ways i find refrain from criticism and careless talk so there are the main points, but as we say we can't go into them all, well, so what we're going to do is to try and just highlight one or two little areas which we could er enlarge on or put the magnifying glass on, so shall we do that? we mentioned about determining not to miss a single spiritual meal, matthew chapter five and verse three well known to us all i think it's in those as some people call them sermon on the chapter five of matthew,happier those conscious of the spiritual needs since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them and we're encouraged to do that aren't we? what does it mean to be conscious of our spiritual need? well if you have the footnote bible like i've got here, you look down the bottom and speaks about those who are beggars, beggars for the spirit and just at the bottom of our road where we live er there's a little area there which quite busy and er there's a man who parades up and down there daily, he's there nonstop every day of the week, you can go by there any time, any day and he's there begging and he has no shame at all, and if you refuse him once he'll catch you another day and he'll ask you again, and you'll see him there backwards and forwards and he'll even when the traffic lights turn red and the cars stop, he'll even go over to one of the cars and if they've got their window open and just er say can you give me, have you got ten p for me? i, i need it to help me to get to hanley or something like that and, and he does this all the time, and i look at him and i think well you know fancy being like that, surely we're in a welfare state, there's no need for that, i don't know what his circumstances are, he may be homeless, i don't know where he comes from and he just appears there and he carries on as if he loves the job, and that's only in this country, but if you go abroad, many of you have been abroad haven't you? and they go even further than that don't they? people do all sorts to their bodies don't they? to, to make people feel sorry for them and they have no shame at all in breaking limbs and distorting their features and all so that kind to make themselves look as pitiful as they possible can because they're going to live a life of a beggar and they tell us it's very profitable being a beggar in some lands, people can make in this country they reckon up to in places like london a hundred pounds a day being a beggar that's more than you earn a day isn't it? most of you simply because they have no shame, now bringing it round to a spiritual thing, how can we show that we, where it describes there beggars for the spirit, it really means having no shame whatsoever in the truth, never hold back in demanding really, what your requirements are in the way of spiritual things and a good mirror to this is analyze yourself and ask yourself what am i like, am i really a beggar in spirit, what am i like when the magazines come? and maybe you have er a nice announcement every time there's a delivery and the brother who's giving the announcements on a tuesday or a thursday, whenever they meet, he, he says that we have new magazines tonight brothers and he may hold them up and said you know, that they're this and that and lovely, beautiful magazines jehovah doing so well now through his organization and he's presenting us with, with erm marvellous erm appealing literature, he holds them up and says we're, we're, we're able to get your magazines tonight and er we would like you to get them straight out at me, and they're still there two or three weeks later, your magazines, this is a way we can stay spiritually awake, is by going and getting them straight away, not for the benefit of the brothers, poor old brother who is on the job and he's wondering why, are they gonna come and fetch my magazines or not, but because we need to devour that spiritual feeling, we need to keep up to date with everything that jehovah's providing us with. really if we, if we're not on top of these things, then what we're saying is that jehovah is like saying to a high squad who lays out a beautiful meal for us and saying well there you are, it's yours for the taking and you saying well i don't feel like that today i'll just have some chips down the road. these are little signs and areas that show up as to whether or not we're really conscious of our spiritual need, alright you go and get them, you say alright i'll go and get them, as soon as they come on there, the first one there, but what do you do with them when you get them home? do they go in a cupboard somewhere and stay there until the day comes when you're in the ministry and you think oh those new magazines i'd better get them, because we're going to that's no good at all, we need to read them and digest them and know what's in them, simply to show not only that we're conscious of our spiritual need, but to encourage others to become conscious of their spiritual needs, so can you see what we said earlier about our lives being involved in other people's too? not just elders and brothers in the congregation is it? it's us and people out there, there is still people out there sighing and crying and groaning under the detestable things that are going on in this world, i've no doubt you've met many, but, when they say i don't know what the world's coming to, well if you know what's in your magazines and then your literature and the reasoning book, all these lovely provisions, because you've devoured it, you've eaten it like that scroll that john was given, it was sweet to him wasn't it? and it's sweet to others as well who want to receive it, but it's also bitter to those who don't, but what a wonderful provision that is from jehovah, so are we conscious of our spiritual needs, no question we could just ask in passing, you notice the kingdom ministry is changed? did you notice that? mm some of you are nodding, if you're thinking what is he talking about, what does he mean, then i'd advise you to go and have a look, because you might be dozing off spiritually if you're not aware of what's happening in kingdom ministry at this moment in time. we also mentioned don't quibble about assignments and arrangements, now in romans chapter twelve, which this text is taken from, if you just go to the previous verses, this is from verse twelve isn't it? erm romans verse and verse four you notice this text is taken from verse twelve, rejoice in the hope and then persevering prayer, but if you go into verse four, what it's speaking about there, but just as we have in one body many, members, but the members do not all have the same function and then in six to eight he goes on to describe that we all have gifts don't we differing according to the undeserved kindness given to us, whether er so forth and so faith, ministry, erm teaching, exhorting, all these different gifts, though sometimes if a particular brother or sister doesn't have a particular gift and we think well you know that's a bit hard going i can't seem to listen to them, that's an area perhaps where we could erm be quivering couldn't we, or complaining, especially about assignments, you might get speakers that come here from other congregations, and some are better than others aren't they? and you think when, when you get one that's not as good, you think well why do they why is it that that speaker can't give such a good talk, why is he giving a talk? well should we quibble about that, not as individuals should we? the elders in the congregation will take careful note of what's happening in the circuit with regards to these figures and the standard of er talks and so forth and the standard of teaching, well it's not for us to quibble about it is it? and what about those assignments you see that erm, we get from the theocratic ministry school overseer, you've all had them haven't we? and we look at the slip and we think oh yeah, and you go home and you look it up, i can't give this, i'd be highly embarrassed to give this, whatever has he given me this one for? and so you go back and you say to your brother i just cannot give this, it's impossible you see, well should we be like that? i'm sure very, very few brothers ever do that, sometimes if a mistake is made you might get an assignment like that, which is dealing with er maybe er marital problems or, or certain areas er with, within that sphere, where it's given to youngsters then, then that would be wrong wouldn't it? er sometimes that has been known and it would be right to, for a youngster to sort of through their mother and father to take it back and say well look er can we have another one, but that would only be on a rare occasion, but if we're given an assignment in the congregation then, especially in a shouldn't we use, try every effort to try and carry it off, perhaps that's one that jehovah's looked at and said well there's an area that they need to learn about, that need to understand a little more, they know nothing about that particular area, in the scriptures, now that's a good one for them to have, we'll make sure they get that, that way they're going to learn, so if ever we always get the easy ones, the ones we know, the ones we've done before, we think i can handle this, you never learn anything do we? so isn't it good for us rather than quibbling, rather than criticizing, and recognizing that we've all got different abilities and perhaps if you hadn't got one of those abilities there, the, the body that it speaks about, you see every part plays a part doesn't it on our physical body and so we are in accommodation, we all have a part to play, and that's the way we, we grow you see and we mature and we become better, able, equipped to go out and tell others, gives us confidence as well if we know what we're talking about, that way we can learn, so never quibble about assignments and arrangements, never criticize brothers and sisters in the congregation. if you've got something to say about anybody, make sure it's good, there's nothing wrong with gossip as long as it's healthy innit? rather than degrading, why not upgrade brothers and sisters for a change. perform well whatever assignments you have, have you noticed the watchtower that were studying today, we've all got it with you i think, just turn to page twenty six turn to page twenty two, you'll see what it's about, it's about a brother roy , who has always advocated sticking close to jehovah's organization, guide to organization, give you a life story, and it's quite interesting reading, and again it's a test of your alertness, your vigilance, whether or not your spirits be awake or not, is this the first time you've seen that article? if it is then you need to think carefully about what we're talking about today, and i hope everyone here has read it already cos that shows your spirit alone. under the heading on page twenty six the service, look you've applied to be a and he also applied to be a servant at the headquarters of jehovah's witnesses in new york in battle, and then nineteen thirty five he was invited to go along to and er he went in an old car a model a ford, there's a model t ford on that one another one he had during his work and he says straight away look i was put to work splitting wood, do you see that in the, paragraph on the right hand side, the next day i was told to report to the dairy barns to help milk cows, then he worked in the garden, he also took care of the bees, harvested honey for the family, then in nineteen fifty three i was transferred to the cheese making farm, now here's a spiritual brother thinking he's going into the battle to do all sorts of spiritual things, and yet these were his assignments, there's a lesson here for you and i. down the bottom there in, number page twenty six it speaks about another modest man who became a role model for me who's name's john now a member of the governing body of jehovah witnesses and he's been quoted over the years as saying it's not so much where you serve, but who you serve that is truly important, can you see that? and then you've got him on the right hand side look making cheese, this is brother again, that's not brother . in nineteen eighty three from nineteen fifty three after thirty years of making cheese, they changed his job, i think many of you are ahead of me already, he said i was given a job change and i began working in landscaping, how nice while being interviewed some time ago i was asked what i thought about being giving a job change after thirty years of making cheese and he said well it didn't bother me, i noted, frankly because i didn't like making cheese anyway so can you see the point of that brothers? if we're given an assignment, whatever it is, perform it well, don't think that i would make a better magazine servant than that brother over there and i don't like it on the accounts, why do they always use me as a hall servant? why am i always given the responsibility of looking after the microphones, i've done this for years well think about this brother here, he made cheese for years and he didn't like the job one bit, now isn't that strange, do you know why? because he had the right attitude, he didn't quibble, he didn't moan he didn't criticize, he just got on with the job, and isn't that a little area that we can all work on somewhere, it comes down to that little bit of territory even, doesn't it, if we're given in the ministry and we say oh not there again, i worked that last time, i know that person in that house they're all working, called on them and when they, i just don't get, i just don't get on with them, they're not me at all, you see, we, we can go on and on in all kinds of areas can't we in the truth, but what an attitude to have and i thought this was a lovely expression here, look, erm, on page twenty seven, just about a third of the way down on the right hand side, he says as i have opportunity, i encourage new ones at that, that would take advantage of all privileged service, they're given, and to learn to be content, and happy with it and just in the next paragraph at the end he says be happy and content in your present circumstances and blossom in a spiritual way in the soil where you are planted isn't that a lo a lovely expression, doesn't that show a man who is spiritually alive and alert and awake, and isn't that how we should be, wouldn't the congregation flow and move along forward, so much better and more unitedly if we all have that lovely attitude that jehovah service, no matter what it is, we can't all be public speakers, we can't all be giving a public talk at the district assembly can we? it's only one that can do it at a time we all have a role to play, we're all part of that body aren't we that we've looked at in some, what a lovely description it is, and some of us don't look quite as good as the other part do we? and er some of us seemed to be more awkward than others, i mean some people's feet when you look at them and, and areas like that, that, you think well why did jehovah make them like that, they're so ugly and yet without them where would we be? and isn't that how the congregation is? some of us seemed to be awkward and the truth, new and the truth, inexperienced, others seemed to be so polished don't they? and they're, they could cope with any situation, but isn't that a little part we all have to play? that's how jehovah wants things isn't it? and that's how his whole organization worldwide is moving ahead, that's why awake, jehovah's organization is moving and christendom's lagging behind, in fact they're, they're falling apart aren't they? because they are spiritually deaf the brother rutherford i think it was years ago described then as dumb dog, what does that you think to yourself now what am i giving, what am i giving in the contribution box now as compared to one, two, three, four, five, years ago, it may be the same and it may be as much as you can afford, well if that's so, then that's grand isn't it? it's like the widows might, but when you think of the way we're plugged in oh we're plugged in right oh dear it's when i, when i went to poland it's not two or three years, it was nineteen seventy three and i was, i was just coming in into the church and the one witness was with me and we were going in er big town like cracow, you know, we were going one way and there was a couple coming erm to meet us like you know in, in, in, on the road, and he was just wearing erm jeans and no shirt, but erm a big, big wooden cross on his chest just reaching really across his chest a wooden cross and then erm a safety pin in his nose and three safety pins attached to one another through his ears and this witness with me walking down, she says just look at this couple and the girl was, wore the same dress she, she had the top on, you know, but again all sort of queer looking and she, this witness with me, with me so, she said just look at the two that's er coming aga to meet us and i said yes and i looked and i said look at the cross and she says yes, it used to be, they used to hang the criminals on the crosses and now the crosses hang on the criminals isn't that lovely , and now the cross is er all the criminals instead of the cross , oh yes oh very good. so erm i was just gonna say,some sometimes, i haven't been for a bit mind you, oh, well the last time i went, sometimes i go to wales to blaenau ffestiniog or to congregation mm have to leave about half past six in the morning mm, mm that's where, i went with our two you know and yvonne, erm and yvonne's daughters the last time i went and this is how i and yvonne come to know each oh is that how it was? at a meeting oh i see so it was you that got them together oh it's, it's a beautiful run you know oh yes it's a lovely run i know, i know that kind, i know that road do you know where we went me and my husband always, porthmadog oh yes yes i've been there lots of times. he used to tell, we used to camp there i have i've i've got a steel tent with er two bedrooms and everything and i, i'm thinking of getting rid of it because mary said she doesn't like going camping oh well i've, i've got a tent, two bedrooms yeah yeah, but i like camping yeah we used to love camping, yeah oh often in the summer in dartfield and myself and one or two others go, you know yeah so er, next time you go, you can put your, you, you can come with us in same tents? oh no you can sleep in the same tent i've got my tent you can sleep with me poor sod, you go and sleep with them even with his dinner ready with no i love camping, we've been camping for about oh more than thirty years yes, how nice we used to have a boat as well and then when er, when his erm mind er, well brain self started, you know he had that alzheimer's disease oh he couldn't manage to think and i've never learnt how to manage to, that erm, the engine, so we got rid of the boat and then our son he's got a big boat, he's got a real speedboat, a real big one and julian he's got a smaller speedboat, so both of the boys go there, when we go camping we always have a good time because it's all a family affair like, you know, always get together and erm go on, on a boat, fishing, having fresh mackerels come back and clean them up and fry them straight fresh from the sea, never tasted as fresh, fresh as, fresher fish than, than you, you know that paper i showed you the, the reason that we're making these recordings, it says so er words, so the normal words go on the state about and so they'll know, they'll know what the language was, why, in the nineteen nineties yeah erm how long this system will go on for, well in order to be able to refer back to the nineteen nineties, who knows we might, neither of us might be here oh still we want this, we want this, they've made a request to have this done and it's government funded and so it's quite an interesting project really just to record things oh and erm what you'll find, you'll find in here that it'll just be picking up the budgies mainly. oh if you, if you listen back to that tape now all you'll hear is them twittering away listening to the budgies i'll just turn backwards and see that's all the language you'll get, it's just the budgies let me just er switch off that's right, the tape's continuing now from where it was before. mhm hello hello nicola it's nice to see you again alright, i thought that was your bike, was it your bike? yes, yes i thought you had a car i have, but it's on the road now you know ah and that's doing me a bit of good that bike is i'll soon chase you getting er a bit of weight off me as well do you want a drink? i've just had one just a little while back have you? just as i've left home, very kind of you i've just i've been up the road ages waiting in the shop, talking and having a little chat and yes give him a little walk can you just do something with those budgies? er do you want them took off? quieten them shut up down a bit, they're a bit noisy aren't they? they're alright if i take them on the table they won't make so much noise then alright it's cos they're high up out of danger if they're out of danger they talk more you see? oh yes if i bring them back down to the floor level they'll shut up put them back exactly watch them if, if, if you see, yours down here i understand cos they're out of danger you see yes they know they can say what they want up there and get away with it yes so if i bring them down on the floor, you know that if they say maybe naughty yeah you can tell them off and then this, they don't, they don't so many things then oh that's very good they're quite, they aren't as daft as they look, you know there's some brain in them, there must be, they're programmed in some way aren't they? yes, oh is this what, what is is this time of a, a sort of er, a programme don't they like, er built in them yes, i think there is isn't there with budgies mm well all animals have got it's all dated in isn't it? yes, that's marvellous that mm we're just, we're just trying to shut the budgies up mark is that your right milk? yeah, that'll do thanks that and we've got jack i got you one of them pies you've got me one of them pies yeah erm chicken and mushrooms in yeah, yeah, that'll do, yeah chicken and mushroom see like, now they've gone a bit quieter now, have you noticed? yeah you've just gone a lot quieter what, what do you think, do you think you ought to say a few words to jack? er, didn't er on his best behaviour or carry on as we are? you're welcome to it jack's the dog by the way well jack er won't say much now, he'll shut up once he gets used to you oh, so he does, he's gone a bit quieter now, it's this, you've probably surprised him, he didn't expect you to be here oh right, so so you've got some questions you wanted to ask me? mark that's the end i said mark and mark's mm mum just came in mm i, i i you're supposed to, i thought you're supposed to remain anonymous oh, on there it says so mm doesn't it, right oh it's only first names anyway yeah, there must be a million marks about mhm especially in germany well the question related to matthew chapter eight, verses twelve yeah where it says where as the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside, this is where the luck we thing the lashing of the teeth will be see, which sons of the kingdom is that referring to? it can't be referring to the ones the sons of the kingdom that are inheriting it is it? no, no so which sons of the kingdom is he talking about? that's a good question, erm, what, what, scripture is it mark? erm, matthew chapter eight, verses twelve let's have a look what's er surrounding er verses say mm it's after the army officer, the army officer is asking him to treat his manservants for some yes and then i hear him back, he says that he's got great faith to believe the truth, know the truth, mhm, mm oh, i can see you're getting me baffled this morning mhm it must be talking erm some other kingdom, that's all i can suggest, maybe erm it says here whereas i'll read from eleven shall i? mm many from eastern parts and western parts will come and decline at the table with abraham and isaac and jacob in the kingdom of the heavens and erm as regards to these ones, abraham, isaac and jacob erm, at the kingdom of the heavens, while these ones were born before jesus weren't they? mm so we know from previous studies that these ones when they die haven't gone to heaven not initially no no they must of done so, so so, yes, so they will, so the kingdom of heaven of the heavens it mentions well, thy kingdom come on earth doesn't it on mhm so, bearing that in mind let's see what it says at verse twelve whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness well there will be some of the sons of the kingdom thrown into the darkness outside, because this, this proved futile, they, they haven't er lived in faith have they? some of them gone away from the kitchen mhm er refrained outside, where, there is where they're weeping and er another scripture here to suggest whether this, this is on the same sort of er apart from that's it, chapter thirteen and luke hold on just a sec chapter thirteen have you got the volume too high there? i think perhaps i have haven't i? mm you've got the volume too high, yeah, you won't get, you'll get your feedback, that means you've got the volume too high, where's the volume? yeah it's on eight now, shall i put it on oh you've got it miles too high, yeah you've got it miles too high, that's why you're getting feedback, turn it right down, right down to about number two or three or something like that oh we won't be able to hear well you don't want to hear what you yeah read some of that then eh? you don't want to hear too much of what you're recording anyway do you? erm yeah this is in luke chapter thirteen matthew, mark, luke and john, luke luke thirteen yes and probably if you go from about twenty five or somewhere round there, you'll get the context of it yeah, twenty five says when once the householder has got up and locked the door and you start to stand outside and knock at the door saying sir open to us, but in answer he will say to you, i do not know where you are from, then you will start saying we ate and drank in front of you and we've taught in our broad ways, but he will speak and say to you, i do not know where you are from, get away from me you are workers of unrighteousness mm, this one now there is, where you'll there is where your whipping and the gnashing of your teeth will be when you see abraham, isaac and jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of god in the kingdom of god , but your half of it's thrown outside yes, but you'll also be going outside, yes mm erm that mentions abraham, isaac and jacob there again doesn't it? yeah i'm just wondering if there that's related to that scripture that i've just showed you oh yes it seems to be on the same lines don't it? yes, because matthew, mark, luke and john were all witnesses of jes jesus' ministry on the earth weren't they? mhm and erm, they recorded different things, but mat but also they recorded the same things as well mm, see the relation is also the sons of the kingdom will be the ones where the gnashing of the teeth er, er will be yes outside the kingdom then yes, yes, that's why it tells us in verse twenty four of luke thirteen ex exert yourself vigorously to get in through the narrow door mm because many i tell you will seek to get in, but will not be able mm so going back to the, the other chapter see we, if i can just say mark now, you and i know this truth,pe pe people in the world generally don't know what you and i know do they? that's why the of the kingdom must go from door to door, from city to city from village to village, they don't know about it, but once we do know about it then we're sort of accountable aren't we? mm that's right, yes responsible, yeah we don't want to be like these ones that erm got to know and it, and er that have done away, it says erm that's where the gnashing and at the tooth will be thrown outside you see this one in chapter, page of matthew, and verse twelve as i mentioned, i was just wondering if some, if that's got something to do with the faith of the army officers or something like, cos oh yes i think erm whether it's related to that particular thing yes you know well it, well it would be, but it's a set pattern for us as we are today mm yes the army officers, shall we just read a bit more of that bit? mm a bit further back probably yeah, just to get the picture of it mm, cos it's got in relation to that ain't it? somehow or other yes, that's it's sort of in relation to it, there must of been some reason why he said that to take them to, hear more to other people yes must of had a bearing on him saying that oh yes, i think the story is that, matthew heard this voice, shall we just read from there? mhm because then jesus said to him, who was he talking to, let's, let's start off on the verse one after er after he had come down from the mountains, great crowds followed him that's jesus isn't it? mm and with a leprous man came over and began doing a to him saying, lord if you just want to you can make me clean, and so stretching out his hand he touched him saying, i want to be made clean and immediately his leprosy was, vanished away, then jesus said to him, see that you tell no one, but go and show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that moses appointed for the purpose of a witness to them when he entered into calpurnia that's the other two, that the other isn't it? mhm when he entered into calpurnia an army officer came to him and tricking him and saying, sir, my manservant is laid up in the house with paralysis being terribly tormented, he said to him when i get there i will cure her in reply the army officer said sir, i am not a fit man for you to enter under my roof, but just say the word and my manservant will be healed that's the old faith int it? exactly, jesus was saying to this officer that i'll cure your master when i get there mm but what, but what marvellous faith he must of had mm yes, you say they were they mm, yeah hadn't got to be there and he could be cured mm, yeah that's right mark, yes he had the faith that's the main thing int it? yes er it goes on to say, erm for i too am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me see jesus was a man of authority the other officer was saying the same mm, the bribery, yeah mm, that's right, and i say to this one be on your way and he's on his way and to another come and he comes and to my slave dither and he does it. hearing that jesus became amazed and said to those following him, i tell you the truth but no one in israel have i faced to a greater face so that's quite some statement that jesus has made mhm now we don't learn a lot about, we don't know much about this army officer except what we've just read, and even though the, we, we know of quite a few people in the bible, he says in israel there's no one with greater faith than this army officer, so he's quite some man isn't he? mm yes very good but we haven't erm gone to, to explain why he's mentioned that particular point in chapter twelve erm in in what relation is that, you know tie in to that particular great faith that he had i, i'll go on reading then from eleven shall i? but i tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts would come and recline at the table with abraham, isaac and jacob and the kingdom of the heavens, whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into darkness outside, that, there is where the weaken and the nation of the two so what's that got to do with that particular that yes faith which he had? yeah, well there must of been some particular reason why, why, why he mentioned that, which maybe might be difficult to try and realize yes i can see your point mark i see you know in other words it might take a bit of time to work it out, there is some reason why he must of said that mustn't didn't he? yes why did he go on to speak about this mm, in other words why did, why did he continue in chapter eleven go on about there will be many in eastern parts will come and required at the table or in other words in the kingdom yeah there must of been some relation problem with each other, the earlier erm thing when it's asked, when it says i tell you mainly from the eastern parts and western parts, well we're from the western parts aren't we? mm, mm in other words it's, it's sticking from east to west, people will know of all the thing, it's er tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts were called and reclined at the table, in other words this, well this good news that jesus was sticking on this ah, i think i know why he mentioned that then yeah because that required faith at the same sort as the army officer had yes and the and the ones that had been cast out would be without that thing, so that's why it's gone in relation to that it's because those that didn't have the faith that the army officer had would be cast out as the sons, of the sons of the kingdom, that's why he mentioned it in likeness the, the type there of faith that's right, you but needed that same type of faith as he had, that's why he said that er, those without that faith would be cast into darkness yes that's why he said related to it somehow yes not that you've all had that same faith as the other officer had mm, cos there , that chapter thirteen but not to that degree degree, yeah mm, it carries on of the same account there then he said to the army officer you see yes go just as it has been your faith yes so let it come to pass for you and the manservant were yield so that particular was all about faith, so yes those without the faith in the certain sons of the kingdom will be cast out yes, now that kingdom is, is in the lord's prayer as we mentioned is gone into the air and mm and everybody will have an opportunity of learning about that kingdom mm, you see at the end of the day one has to work out if this is gonna be an earthly er point towards the kingdom, that's the different between this faith and any other faith isn't it? any other faith doesn't believe there's gonna be an earth left does, do they? they be has a, yes they believe it's all going to be in a story don't they? basically yes a lot of people will read that yes but you see unless the day was cut short no flesh would be saved anyway, so it proves in matthew that there is gonna be some flesh left yes, that's right and as we've learnt in first corinthians chapter fifteen that all different animals have different sorts of flesh, we've got different flesh than, than different animals haven't we yes than than dogs and fish have got different flesh yes so that the new flesh that we require will be a different sort of flesh than we've got now probably in the new order or whatever it is, you know, we might require a different sort of flesh mightn't we? well if we which is more, but let's face it at the moment wears out as it grows older doesn't it? aye, do you know why that is don't you? cos it's, cos of the sin obviously the sin of element passed that been broken yeah passed down towards us, that's right yeah but, and this kingdom takes over, jesus was a ransom sacrifice, he brought, bought people back, that's, those that have faith, so in the new, when this new system comes round, when the king comes round the earth we'll start to grow young again, and then that way we'll have a sort of a different flesh won't we? mm when we grow young again mhm it'll be, you see, you are, if you, i think if you believe in, in god which is the main point of the thing, then you can believe who's capable of anything yes i mean, you've got to bear in mind that god created the, the heavens and, and the earth and any human that's er in god's memory who's is deceased out the way, if you've got enough faith, you can believe that you can bring anything back yes if you've got the faith, if you believe in god in other words, you've got the faith yes you've got to believe in god first before you can get the faith exactly you know what i mean yes so if you do believe then well, then you can believe that anything's possible yes with god well you've only got to go back to what we've been discussing and jesus mm when he was on the earth, he cured that didn't he? mhm for somebody to doubt there will be urge of people on in paradise, it's doubting god's power isn't it? exactly mm, so people that just believe that you're going to heaven haven't quite got the faith to believe that there'll be people on earth as well exactly, yes well anything's possible with god cos he created everything, if he's created the stars and the moon and, and the heavens, then he can create whatever he wants to yes it's up to him isn't it in a way yes, that's right that ultimate thing yes indeed, being as he's a god as well mm he's only got erm, well i mean provisions and store for those whose artist complete towards them mm, and that, and that, at the end of the day i suppose there has to be a point for the kingdom and it wasn't easy to get into that because all the, the, the accounts are all about how big a struggle it is, to get into the kingdom yes which proves that it wouldn't be easy to get in there anyway, so no it isn't granted automatically, it's something that has to be worked out because it's not easy to get there it's a narrow gate yes so did the automatic thing which proves that it takes a bit of time and patience before you've achieved this yes it isn't like an immortal soul which is sort of given automatically that's right, yeah you have to have faith don't you? yes yes mm and with all the different about god that they are on the earth today mm which are literally thousands of them mm they contradict each other, they fight each other , they kill each other mm all in the name of god, and the very thing that god has said don't do mm so if, religion really is the biggest conflict that's ever been devised mm to, to, there's people plenty serving god, well actually they're serving the devil mm yes mm, and a lot of er the religions believe in things that er aren't true like santa claus yes and things like that, that is a lie yes it's not truth is it? it isn't so a lot of, a lot of them tell like fairy tales, a lot of people tell fairy tales for young, at young children, it's all aimed at young children when they're not old enough to understand what's truth and what isn't they're not old, they're not in their own understanding yet when they're children so they sort of, not in their conscious sense anyway what but you what did the catholic policeman say, give me a boy until he's seven and i'll give you the man mhm it's all, it's all you see at the end of the day it'll be the ones that, that are in charge of erm got to get the worse judgement, because they are more responsible yes got to be the ones that are in charge, in other words the ones that have been mislead, god might overlook because they didn't know that they were probably being mislead yeah you see what i mean? yes in other words they weren't in the explained yeah because says to him, but we're not blind also are we? and then he replied that well just because you think you're not blind, then you must be mm you know like it's reversed they thought they, they, the words, so they must of been if that's how it is yeah just when you, you, you think you're not lying you probably are yes and when you think you are, you're probably not yes it's like so a two way thing, you know yes one after the but it, if everybody has the opportunities listening to the good news of the kingdom, in the, in the old world well then people have a chance, that means a, everybody's having a chance doesn't it? mm if you mention like, if people don't hear this how will they, well it says in romans doesn't it? romans, just have a look at romans, ten romans chapter ten excuse me mark mm a bit later, yeah yes, alright, sorry for interrupting you no it's alright, keep talking yeah it says, romans ten, verse thirteen,for every everyone who calls on the name of jehovah, will be saved, however, how will they call on him if in him they'd not put faith, how in turn will they put faith in him, if him they've not heard, how in turn will they hear without someone to preach, how in turn will they preach unless they've been sent forth , just as it is written,how come we are at the feet of those who declare good news of good things well that's more or less what we were saying isn't it? mm people have, have got to have this opportunity to listen to the good news erm mm if, if they refuse, well that's, that's a choice they have isn't it? mm, see one of the dangers of just reading the bible is that you have to be careful you don't fall into the pitfall of just reading it when if you do then it'll all look as if it's pointing towards the only way out is heaven yes and you've got the time because all the scriptures in the first gospel are all pushing in how to get to that place that's right, cos these first ones, sorry for interrupting mark, go on mm , yeah, the, all the scriptures from then on even are all pointed out to achieve this heavenly thing yes but er at the end of the day there has to be a purpose for it so unless you, you, you put it into action, then you, if you just read, then you're in danger of having a bigger judgment than somebody that was ignorant mm you know of not knowing, so that the responsibility becomes higher the more you learn yes, more have came to me that's right mhm and erm in erm, speaking about it however and in mentioning about the scriptures which referring about them mm, most of them do don't they? most of the scriptures are all out, out to achieve that because they had to acha achieve perfection at the end of the day didn't they? but, what, which ones are going to heaven? everybody? well, the scriptures really mention how a man drives for the kingdom of god, so mainly it's the man, i don't know whether women go to the, the heavenly ground, it doesn't actually mention that does it anywhere? well the amended ones mm, are they men or, or are they known to all women? both aren't they? i don't know er sort of yeah question that i meant to, meant to ask, which i don't know whether there are women there, cos mainly the scriptures mentioned about, it's the man that's got the lead isn't it? yeah you very rarely talk about women going to heaven yes do they? well, it, the reason, you know the reason why some are going to heaven, when you think of a kingdom mm and you think of our country here in england mm you've got, there's the queen she's the head of the country mm and she, to help her to run the country she's got a parliament mm now in heaven, jesus is the king and jesus will, will have a certain number with him in heaven to rule over the earth, a with him mm and these ones will be made up, er faithful ones from, taken from jesus' they'll be made up of faithful ones, that er will, will have to die, they'll have to shove their flesh with to go to heaven to be part of this kingdom, but for the rest of mankind which are obedient, which do accept er the truth, they will live in paradise on the earth. mm, you see, a lot of the er the english scriptures talk about the, the paradise in, in its right context, you can just examine the, the, the christian script which you might get confused because there's a lot of er things that can take them both ways yes like for instance chapter ten of john, verse sixteen which talks about other sheep which are not of this fold, you, you might think that er that's talking about, what er, the logical sense of that scripture is that the dividing line with sheep and you get different sort of folds don't you? yes so at that time that could of been taken into the context of, or one anyway, going to the same place yes which only in future years that er, it's added up to er significant point that's right and then er, those ones, those sheep which you've just mentioned er are a myth oh mm cos one thing really gave the key away was in the, the sermon on the mount where jesus said that the meek ought, ought to inherit the earth yeah which proves that er, that it's a separate class for those who are going to heaven well, mm this is the point at the end of the day to prove the truth, you've gotta prove in your mind that there is gonna be a separate sort of clasp between the what, there, there is a scripture, i think come on it's in first corinthians, it talks about for, i think i'm in a vision of the third heaven, which was actually a vision, it wasn't a reality it's like a revelation was a vision, i don't think it was the reality of heaven was it? it was vision i can't comment without just looking at it mark er i'm afraid no there was a vision and i think the, the apostle had was of the third heaven yes, yes you may be right, but i'm, i'm just about erm in the dark a bit the third heaven i thought it i think, i've, i've looked in the re the aid book, what does the third heaven, it was er it was more of a, a dream, more of a sym symbolic dream more than natural reality of vision of heaven do you know what i mean? yes you see a lot of the er, a lot of the vision that they had something typifying mm, the visions that they had were not as reality they were only like visions they had yes they weren't actually real heaven or real there's basic weren't the oh yes, yes colourful visions oh lots of visions were, were had by mm, see that's that's the difference which have to click in your mind yes that even in, in, in the revelation, the very beginning chapters to of had one to about chapter seven were very easy to understand, once you understand what they're saying, because they're all letters to each congregation at that time weren't they? yes they were, yes they, they were er, the, the to the congregation of, of wherever send this letter and john has to send these letters, but the letters were the spirits talking that's right yes they're all the spirits talking to them yes giving them information yes, that's right that's basically the sort of revelation isn't it? that's right, yes and the angel whose congregation the let letters were sent to yes one logical thing is that erm, if erm letters were sent to er, to angels, which i don't know whether that the judges believe that, then you wouldn't actually need to send the literal letters to, er angels who, it because they'd be far advanced in, in whatever they've got yes so you know the, these one thing you'll have to work out in a logical side of revelation yes in other words if you read it without any experience you might start thinking that it's giving you a vision of the real heaven where as it's just symbolic yes it's all symbolism, and this is one of the things you have to work out, to, to find out whether there is er you know, can i just ask you something? talk about angels you know, these are heavenly erm spirits aren't they? mm erm, now can you remember in the book of genesis where it says sons of the true god? er they took on flesh and the you oh the ones that were disobedient? yes yeah, yeah an angels that turn bad, just like a lot of mankind turn bad er they put on flesh then for the purpose of marrying the goodlooking daughters of men mm now, do you know anything, about these fal these fallen angels have they died? or are they still about today? or what? what do you know about them? mm, well obviously they've been casting bonds and tell judgment can, well, can they influence us today? the de if they're demons, yeah they can yeah yes they do exist then, then the demons are these proper angels at one time mm weren't they? fallen mm angels er to, to work the truth out of things, one has to think what adam, adam had lost in the beginning, what jesus had to gain back, cos according to the corinthian's letter that erm jesus came back to buy back what adam had lost and if you can work out what adam had lost in the, in the first place, then you can see the point why you're put on the earth and you can see that it, that he, he was given a commandment not to take off the, the tree of kno knowledge written by weren't he? that's right if he can work out that er, what would of happened if he probably wouldn't of taken that yes and what was taken away when, when he did break the rule, then you can work out what jesus brought back yes, that's right then you can work that out which was god's spirit in some way yes what, he must of lost god's spirit mustn't he adam? oh yes on his way yes, to a large degree mm that spirit and that's he broke, he broke the ageing process on the human race mm, cos that's what jesus came to buy back god's spirit that's it, because he was a perfect man jesus mm not, not like erm any descendants that would go on from adam were born imperfect weren't they? mm, it's alright i've just seen a, a woman er passing a three wheeler on the pavement here, wheel chair and she was doing quite a bit of a speed, i was just gonna get my, my my speed checker know of her, see if she was speeding on the pavement well getting back to these fallen angels in what way must try and lead mankind today? one of the big ways is, is spiritualism and things that are not real, things that are sort of er blind in the mind of the unbeliever as it were, in other words material things probably and things that have under revelation according towards the under revelation he talks about how these, these dumb idols and these pieces of gold have got nothing in them and that'd be way in which the, the ones would be caught out, because of these gold or whatever have got nothing in them you see. what, what about ouija boards? well this is another method isn't it? er of tricking people into believing sort of things that aren't true, which they're saying that er they're talking to deceased people like people said they talked to er elvis presley yes has been er one woman that claims to continuously talk to him from where he, where he, where he is, where, you know yes so obviously she's assuming that she's talking to elvis, but er, she can't prove it yes obviously beyond that, that sort of thing can't prove anyway, but she's claiming to, to talk to this particular singer, whatever, you know. lots, lots of people claim, in fact ever such a lot of people claim that they've got communication with the dead, for instance that, as you know i've got a caravan ain't i at rudyard lake? mm and there's a lady there, and er, got a caravan and her husband had died and she wanted me to swap caravans, her's was actually a better condition caravan than mine mm where it, she said it was too big for her and er she wanted something smaller, with a swap, well i didn't swap for the reason mine was overlooking the lake, it was in a better position, and er, then she told me the reason she wanted to swap cos er, she said it was too big cos her husband had died, i started to speak to her about when god's kingdom comes on the earth, these dead ones will come back, these loved ones mm oh he's already with me now she says mm he's already with me mm and she, she was absolutely sure, and there's lots of people that mm say things like that mm, well actually when, when somebody passes away lots of people say that when they pass away they've received their spirit yes that's came to them yes, so what act, so do you know mark what it is that makes these people think those things? well there must be another force that makes them see them things mustn't there? yes er, it isn't actually controlled by them no it is actually some other thing and you know and this other force is the fallen angels, the demons, if they, they can have, oh this women used to say oh he's with me, he, he's in bed with me at night mhm so these demons, these fallen angels have got, you see, you've got to serve them and, and those of the bible, but once you're dead, you go to the grave you see and that's it, you're not conscious of anything at all it says mm, what, the but, but these things you've got to bear in mind though that, that, that the scriptures which you can use in the hebrew context were before the resurrection was possible, so you had to be careful that er, that you don't bounce because when jesus came to the earth he changed that though didn't he? he, he made possible for, for a resurrection oh that's right you know what i mean? yes, but only for a, for a, for a, a few isn't it? well obviously relatively few and compared those that are going in the end going to another year well the scriptures do say that, that er there are those that'll be lost yes well in so there's gotta be some hope for those that have, have gone lost or whatever hasn't there? erm in the past? mm, no, well there isn't much hope for those that rejected jesus in his time no i'm cos he mentioned that those were liable further to start him as a because he was actually there at the present, if they, if they couldn't believe that when he was around then they've got a big problem haven't they ? that's right yes, if they coul god's son on the earth during these and if they couldn't accept him then mhm then they're not gonna accept him any time are they? that's right so they, they weren't liable anyway yes a complete destruction yeah like er according to the, the, the scripture, the son of destruction which, i don't know whether it points towards judas iscariot of being one of the, the sons of destruction. yeah, i think what you meaning before like, before jesus' time, in that's the description isn't it? mhm and it says the conscious that they will die mm but as for the dead they have conscious of nothing at all mm, you've got to bear in mind that it is actually erm it isn't something you can take for granted, it is something that is a given thing and that er, it can be taken away, that's the main thing, but this knowledge that be true but mm you can lose it but you can't guess can't guess , yeah that's true that's right, so as we mentioned it exert yourselves vigorously mm, in other words it isn't an automatic immortal soul that you've got no it's still taken it, it's something that's external n naturally yes, that's er, that's er kitchen of maturity isn't it? because you see i mean the soul, what is the soul? the soul is the whole inside into us mainly the man himself mm yeah you couldn't actually have separate parts no, that's right, it's no shadowy thing that leaves, leaves er body there besides does it? soul is the man the only thing that makes you conscious of what's going on is your brain and that anyway mm is your faculties that know, if there was something that went out it wouldn't be conscious would it, it'd be unconscious, so you wouldn't actually be conscious, you're conscious is your brain working with your body, working with your mind and everything, it's, that's why you're conscious, when you're yes unconscious there might be something that goes out some breath yes but that won't be conscious, you'll be unconscious yes so that won't be conscious of anything, you need eyes to see and to be conscious that's right with your eyes closed you can't see yes you, you need so your breath your senses don't we? that's right, your breath can't see in other words no your spirit can't actually see, it's blind isn't it? that's right if you're unconscious and you can't actually physically see yes that's right so if there was something that went out you wouldn't actually to be able to physically see where where you're going yes what they're getting mixed up with is the mortal soul with it, is that when they're using their imagination yes when you use your imagination you can imagine that you're somewhere else can't you? and they believe that's another eye as it were, towards their spirit which they think's, you know it's a middle eye of, of knowledge that they be that's right, yeah at the end of the day once your eyes are shut like that you've only, you've only got your imagination haven't you left? yes and they think because they've got that imagination while they're living it will still be there when, when we got, this is man's thinking again ain't it? it, this is yeah where they got their beliefs from, from them thinking, you know, they've mixed men's thinking with, with biologies and things ain't they? yeah philosophy and things yes mm, erm the immortal soul belief is not a physical belief, it's something that's being had from, from guesswork from them well they made a guess haven't you? well for it's, it's a isn't it? you've guessed in a way haven't you? mm so it's not a bit er, it's not something that's automatic? no to tell a child that he was automatically going to heaven, would not be biblical no of course not because it's not the way that er it was designed for it, it was designed for something in which men pressed forward to yes wasn't it? it wasn't something that the child automatically got yes those that haven't, are less fortunate than that, there must be something either for them or that they were going to heaven wasn't they? that's right, yes mm yes some will make it the earth, but then again some will vanish altogether mhm that's right, yeah they will be all those who call on the name of jehovah will be saved it's a matter of having that faith, that should be jehovah in romans chapter ten, verse thirteen, it's a matter of working out to, for logic of the original verse which it came from, cos that's been quoted hasn't it? the apostle there that wrote that letter has quoted a verse from somewhere out of the hebrew hasn't he? yes he must of done, cos that's what they were using, they were using the hebrew scriptures to, to quote on weren't they? yes so if you can go back to the original hebrew of that particular verse then you'll find out how it's meant to be said, because a normal bible vision wouldn't read god's in there, it would read equals and the name of the lord, will be saved you see yes that's the way most bible verse is today, really want it yes, that's it if they would be very difficult to get through to somebody the truth yes and that's the, that's come from the hebrew that particular thing er yes mm, that's erm quoted from won't it? erm? two is it? i don't know where that particular one yes it was, i think on the cross reference where it's er quoted from yes it's yeah mm , two thirty two that's where that cross reference comes from you see mm cos if you think about it, the apostle source was the hebrew scripture'=s that was their source wasn't it? that's right and then yes what do you , so you've got to really refer to the hebrew to find the truth haven't you? yes, i, and then i mean when the apostles, erm, then jesus came on the scene, but, he was their source as well as the scriptures there mm, that's right, yeah mm it's like a combination isn't it? in fact the what, they found out the sacred secret, that's enlightened them to the hebrew though mm sorry watch that forty five minutes left on here, mm yeah but, like you say that the to find, to find out the real truth you have to refer to hebrew anyway because they found out the sacred secret of god didn't they? yes but also the, the being inferred to, that enlightened them on the hebrew didn't it? it must of enlightened them on what the scriptures meant, by the sacred secret, cos before it must of been some kind of weird mystery to them yes all of it must, but all of a sudden jesus came along and then enlightened their minds to the scriptures so they are inspired again to write the christian scriptures then aren't they? oh, that they knew er something of the hebrew scriptures because they were expecting the messiah weren't they? mhm they were look they were waiting for him, they were looking for him they were expecting him mm, one er scripture which i always find very interesting is hebrews chapter twelve, verse twenty two look at that one twenty two? mm, what he's talking about is the old covenant was to do with the mountain wasn't it? and it was fearsome yes moses was sc scared then it says to the,the apostles that they'd approached a mount zion and a city of a living god, heavenly and millions of angels and also a general assembly and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens and also go with judge all and the spirit lives the brightest ones who have been made perfect , now, see most bible versions don't use that spiritual there,they render it as spirit lives the brightest ones who have been made perfect , now is that verse they're talking about the apostles then reaching up to perfection and lives or is that talking about they've approached straight line that's already there in heaven, in other words, the, the, you know that the understanding which i have it from this bible is er that seems to be suggesting that er that's talking about apos the apostles' lives before they died,our spiritual lives with brightest ones who have at that er point been made perfect by being prepared to go where they're going to m=mm in other words i'm trying to work out why this is spiritual lives and not spiritual lives you know there must be some reason why well a person can be, ever, these are the difference between a spirit mm person or a spirit being shall we say, not a person, a spirit being and a spiritual being, see, you can have a human being which is, who is spiritual can't you? mhm see that's what i'm trying to get at whether that's spiritual lives, we can have spiritual lives mm , mm we could, but if, but if that ends there, referring to the people on the earth or the people on the heaven or the nah spirits in the heaven, you know what i mean, you know what i'm trying to say? yes is that verse there referring to the ones that have spiritual lives on the earth or the ones that already in, in the, the heaven with the spirit lives in there, you know what i mean? yes, oh and speaking entrentically about the congregation of the firstborn mm will we haven't enrolled in the heavens you see yes so, the bit, it'll be part of the heavenly kingdom mm, see they, they'd actually approached all this, they've approached it haven't they? yes some bibles say that, that they've come to this, at the end of the day, they hadn't quite, had it at that point anyway, cos they'd approached it cos they were still alive weren't they? yes so the correct is to approach that yes you know what i mean, they haven't actually got that yet because they were still alive at this point here weren't they? so he's explained that this is what they've approached the heavenly jerusalem but yes you know but er, you know these united ones on the earth today, righteousness mm has before they go to heaven,account mhm already accounted to them isn't it? mm, see this is a very difficult one to understand, it takes a lot of er working out, you see then he's also applied, approached the city you see which is called the same thing isn't it? mhm also it's called another thing, heavenly jerusalem with millions of angels in general assembly and the congregation of the first one which is the first fruits aren't they? there could be no doubt in the mind of john that jesus had been sent by god. so what happened when jesus was thirty years old? erm he erm, he ha he went to john the baptist to baptize, to ask him to be baptized yeah that's right, very good, so nine,by pouring out this holy spirit and jesus, jehovah was er knighting him or appointing him to be the king of this coming kingdom, thing thus have anointed with the spirit, jesus became the messiah , which words in the hebrew and greek languages mean appoint, a anointed, therefore he became in fact jesus christ or jesus the united, so, so it was apostle peter spoke of jesus who was from nazareth, nazareth, how about anointed them, but all the spirit and power, also by his baptism and water, jesus was presenting himself to god, to carry out the work that god had sent him to earth to do, what was that important work? so mine asks when did jesus in fact become christ? and why then? er, when he was baptized and peter says by his baptism what was jesus presented himself to do? to do er god's will, erm yeah with read it here, hmm that's right as you say yeah so when a person gets baptized then, what, what, they're dedicating themselves to do god's will aren't they? yes, to carry out god's work, yes were you, have, have you been baptized? no when you was a baby? oh when i was a baby yes of course, yes so when you were a little baby did you dedicate yourself to do god's will then? no you're not capable are you? no er so just for us you don't even know what god's will is do you? when no er you're a baby that's right and er there's something as well, er, er in baptism isn't there really? godparents, these state that you should keep them on the straight and narrow i mean you can't guarantee that no can they? and then again did jesus have godparents? no no, i mean if the parents can't keep children under straight and narrow that's right, yeah and don't and particularly these days they don't go, seem to have all that much interest in doing so do they? no no, not at all so grandparents are probably even less interested, you know yeah so all the same as in my case, i mean i erm, er my aunt, my aunt travelled to, to like to look after my mother, er she was one, and she died now erm she died two years ago, i think she was one of the first to go and er, the other one they fetched him out of the street the chap then they corresponded with him up to the war but, but after that, they, i don't know whether they stopped writing because of the war, i don't know, but they never, never got in touch with them never again so so that's when you were born? yes when, when i was baptized how old where you when you were baptized? yeah, when i was baptized , she probably stayed there till i was baptized, cos she would of been yorkie somebody they just fetched out of the street? and they fetched somebody out of the street, this was, this was in er worcester this was to be er, godparents? to be er to, yeah to be me godparents, checking how, how serious do you think this chap would take that duty, you know well just just grabbed out of the street i think when they lived there they used to meet regularly, cos erm, i suppose worcester, worcester in november aye, people were more serious in them days than they are now aren't they? take things more serious er, yes, yes this was like nineteen twenty eight years old yes yeah, they would be er erm, i think they would, would be more like er, see of course when we came back here to stoke er i mean that severed relations with them so to speak apart from like say letters, they did use, used to write i remember getting letters and we'd send letters, perhaps only twice a year, but i can remember them mentioning. so regards to your upbringing they wouldn't, they discuss no, my, my aunt was in york, we used to see her once a year, christmas, she used to come very good that, so, the next why he came to earth? er before we go into er, this next summary, have you any ideas yourself why jesus came to the earth? well i think probably it was such a bad place, putting, come to try and show a little light, proper way to live and well you know er, i suppose that would be included, you know included yes eh, eh give over these other, these other things erm, hello little girl hello there, what's your name? clare clare? yeah oh, how old are you clare? three three, oh i don't know, three already and you like going to see granddad? yeah yes there, we're just reading this book for a minute or two, if you want to sit, sit and listen you can, you're alright lovey, you're gonna sit down there, sit on that chair if you like er sit up, bring that chair up there look get the towel off there in case you lean back, put that up there then very good that, use, you can erm sit, sit and listen are you? yeah that's a good girl but my mum's here your mum's here mum's in now is she? alright then well if, after sitting a bit if you want to go into your mum you can can't you? very good then, so why he came to earth says explaining why he had come to earth jesus told the roman governor pontius pilate, will thus i've been born and for this purpose i have come out of the world that i should bear witness to the truth, but what particular truth was jesus sent to earth to make no man, first just about his heavenly father, he taught his followers to pray that his father name be hallowed or hell holy and he prayed, i have made your name manifest to the man you gave me , also he said i must declare the good news with the kingdom of god, because for this i was sent forth , so what truths did jesus come to er, to tell? er, truth about his heavenly father, erm taught his followers to, his father's name be heard how holy what did he how important could you from this work of making known this father's name and kingdom, he said to his disciples my food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work why did jesus consider god's work to be as important as school? it was because the kingdom there's the means by which god will fulfil his wonderful purposes for mankind, for humankind, it is this kingdom that will destroy all wickedness and will clear jehovah's name of the reproach that has been brought upon it. so jesus never held back for making known god's name and kingdom. he always spoke the truth whether it was popular or not, he lo loves provided an example and we should follow if we want to please god. why did jesus consider his work so important? my food is my food is for me to do the will of him that sent me yes, without little food nobody can live can they? no and yet jesus felt that it was ju equally important as having food yes think about this kingdom and to finish his work, do not, you will, while eat a lot you know what he meant by finishes his work so erm, we ask, what did jesus never hold back on doing? and so what should we do? well er, you never hold er, you always the truth erm, oh you never, never hold back and make be known in god's name the kingdom, he always told the truth whether it was popular or not, that's really, so erm come on you, are you going out with clare, come on, hey, come on, come on pip, go on, go on we've just got this one paragraph, before we go to the next sub-heading erm, then we'll close there shall we? yes make it possible first to gain everlasting life under the rule of god's kingdom, jesus had to pour out his as two apostles of jesus said we've been declared righteous now by his word, the boy of jesus god's son come here then so an important reason why jesus came to pip was to die for us, he said as soon as man came not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul for life, as a ransom in exchange for but what does it mean that jesus christ stake his life for a ransom, why was pulling out was necessary for our salvation but the question asks what,for what, what other important reasons did jesus come to earth erm oh er, to clear us all of sin yeah how, how would he do that? oh erm, by blood, by the blood in jesus in other words god's son, all our sons the same and what would jesus have to do for that? die er can explain er why, you know, why would he have to die? to cleanse us from sin, what type of sins in particular in the, would he be cleansing as at? would you the paragraph? erm, no, erm definitely erm i'll go with salvation yes erm, when we've done wrong repent and erm well if yes erm yes, but er there's another reason as well, there's another reason, we can't save the souls can we? by any means oh no no so how, how was it that jesus saves us and had he, he'd got to die for us, what, couldn't he save us without dying because his death was, wasn't very nice by any means no so why did he have to die? who, who was it that brought down the human race? oh erm can i put this on eric? yes you most certainly can very good, so about television what were you saying? about er television and it's so er in if you, if you read, do, do your er, what do you call it? er preparation yes for the er studying for thermographic school you'll find in the old people's, in the old people's book, you are asked to read a chapter there and it's er full of er advice regarding television oh and its restrictions you know for religious interested yes erm very good, i'll have a look at that eric yeah mind you i've, i've got to do a it's a complete chapter we've got to read you know yes, i've got to do er our tuesday's group yeah and they erm, the revelation book. yeah. ah, had a good day today? yes i have what about you? yes alright i've er have you been on the er thermographical on the, on the no i've been erm, playing some doing a bit of research oh erm had a good night last night, i went to see mary, did i tell you you said you was going either or to both the mission meeting oh yes well now er did you go no where we went was the erm well where we went first was the dunkirk, didn't like what we hear in there, so we went from the dunkirk and tried to get in the erm smithfield hotel, we were unable to do that in newcastle? yeah, we were unable to do that why, was it packed? it was er a private do oh, yeah so er we couldn't get in is it erm it's, it so, i know, i never ended up where i said i was going either cos erm i met this rus russian lady and her sister was with her as well and we were er, she advised me not to go to russia for the time being because it will be over, she said there's gonna be a lot of blood shed yeah, well i thought that don yeah apart from that i mean too, it's in political upheaval at the moment yeah er the soviet union is yeah, that's where she got this information from and she mentioned vadeen, that lieutenant in the russian red army yeah mind you, not that he's giving any secrets away, it's been yeah mentioned well publicized yeah, but erm yes, so what er that council on study and television er couldn't of come at a better time don yes do we know to be perfectly honest don i think you, you should retain the television, but you should restrict too with the regard to your use of it well, yeah that would be probably the best, yes you know, i know what it like, i might make a determined effort, but i know what a overpower, you know, creep up on you, i, i'd, it'd just get the better of me eric that's why i got really the other one you see and that, i, i haven't come to any harm not having it, and erm i've just got to get rid of this because it's, i'd do a lot more eric if it weren't for the television, i know i'll miss it when i get rid of it you see, it has been described as a plug-in drug yeah but it all well and good, but for twenty year, we shouldn't be talking about this, when i was in ireland a couple of years ago the skew over overseer said he had to get rid of his television for the same reason, he er couldn't turn it up start repairing the at the last minute you know yeah and er, he didn't intend it that way, but er it's the way it turned out a television you see with me living on my own for such a long time now, erm it seems er it seemed to get in the way, you had the television and listen and look at it yeah there's a lot of activity going on in the house, then it would be so er no point yeah it's been mild again hasn't it? yeah that's considering it's january it reminds me of this global warming that's taking place down on everywhere oh yes, that's probably what it is, i'm sure it is, because when we were young, do winters were much more bitter weren't they? yeah prolonged as well yes i don't like the cold snaps but they haven't been for long have they? no no i, if we do have any er severe snow again or ice yeah i'm thinking of buying myself some ice skates, i've been promising myself those, just, you know over the last few years when we have had a, just a bit, mind you there was one year about six years ago weren't it, where we were you ought to be very careful with living on your own don you could break an ankle and you'd be in real serious trouble yeah dangerous sport that is, that and skiing no well no, ice skating yeah, well it's a dangerous sport you can get hurt easy i know you can, i have been ice skating on er the rink a few years now going past don oh sorry, erm it's a good job you said eric yeah mind you i have er, i have that way inclined you know, i do take too many risks i suppose really. what's that knocking noise? is it from under the vehicle? it's when i was reversing, it seems to be a common thing with these, somebody else has got where you going now? oh i thought you said i'm going past, oh it's there int it? yeah i don't know where i'm going . right er it's unusual that knocking that isn't it? yeah, what, what do you reckon it is do you know? i think it's the brakes my driver was saying he was saying, this other chap he knows that's got one of these cars, the same happens it does it, it's a fitting yeah i'll turn that off when you get in there. just put it in, er i'll have it it's okay, keep, keep yeah cos the motor might er motor right i have it er, i have it in the taxi oh yeah you know and talk to people i think because obviously if it as i say of different people mm, is there something big with what's that word mean? i'm sure that won't er mind you and, and for compiling dictionaries i think it's used for as well yeah er mind you i bought a dictionary about a month, six weeks ago yeah and er i was looking at in, there's a lot of slang words that i think what ah they put that word in for you know that's because it so common int it? yes, that's ser so many slang words, i thought well fancy putting them in, what will they be putting in next? you know i, i felt that the english language is being corrupted yeah mm there's closing down they've been closing down since i've known them oh this is for real now don you don't think this, it's not a it's not a joke now it is, it's for real is it? yeah have they got any thing much left? eh in what, depends what you want really i suppose you get stuff as well as one as old well er he's still getting certain things in like doors i think and er, what have you, but er, and then he's going for the d i y sort of stuff now, i think he's stocking that has he rented the premises? erm, i don't think so, i think it might be theirs, oh you mean rent it to somebody else? yes, yeah i think one part of it might be rented out, but not the shop, but i think he might be renting them out as well he was, i can't, for, that light's come on that's your parking brake oh one brake or is it does it mean that maybe your brakes are low? no cos that's your parking brake? oh i can't, unless it's just the light's a bit funny or what have you oh, it doesn't, well, before it was alright mm it's just as i've started innit, i thought oh i haven't pulled the handbrake off, you know, but, it won't go any higher oh maybe it'll clear itself when it's it could be of the erm the brake pads i think maybe but it's the wrong one int it? it's, that's the p for parking brake the brake's alright, although it wasn't on when i put some brakes on well i think we'll have, if the brakes have gone at least we've recorded our last words for it oh yes, also, you know, what, in, you know, if we get any terrible people in the car yeah i, i, i press that down you know yeah so if you did fit anything on the back of the head they'd had the comfort, they know what was wrong like oh dear, well i mean you should take this in the pub with you or what have you well i was going to, but you know my pockets? yeah i can't get, they're, they're stitched up alright i can't get that far in it oh well i can get it, i can get it in my car yes, alright, and you can have the er that on your lapel sort of i'll look like, well i'll look a bit strange but er oh well just somewhere i'll have it discreet, i'll have it on my tie yes have it down on my tie. well i wouldn't imagine myself doing this tonight donald i can tell you that what you doing? i wasn't planning on coming to the moat house with it and recording a conversation oh it's going, ooh, it went out actually just as we went over a bump ah it might be, maybe a dodgy earth or something that keeps the light on yeah it's only, it's only a bulb int it that's er well i wonder if it could be the brake fluid cos that's it's got owt it do it's, probably does in action the batteries alright when you started? yes oh yeah, the lights are on, it's alright new batteries today, well tonight do they pay for your batteries as well? oh everything, they give me a stack of batteries, they told me to change the batteries after every three tapes good grief it must cost them a fortune to erm you know, pay for all these then, so they give you the walkman to, while you're doing this and they give you the batteries, tt oh it's mm just been to pick up a chap you see for the dance, you know across the we've got er, we pay for different things yes well er, i went down to give him my book cos i do anything it's a book we write everything down in that's right, yes i remember he was going to leave it tonight it just so happens that i'm courting tonight yes and erm, we've, we've sorted out the balance up till the end of december, so they actually owed us money, even though the balance was in our favour, we're better off though it's gotta go in the bank oh is there a yeah you find it easy to do? er it's not difficult at all really don, i think when you're at first thing do, it might be a bit of a prospect to the end of the month cos er during the month it's a doddle yes it's just, just the incon it's just, maybe a bit inconvenient to the bank sometimes during your dinner break yes or what have you, but erm, it don't take very long yeah erm, but, erm it's, it's pretty straightforward, i, i usually refer to the previous month's erm things anyway just to make sure i'm doing everything right cos they use no, you have a second side of the tape yes oh i don't think you'll make that this is disabled oh it is, isn't it? oh great oh is your, is your bad leg better yet? i've got a bad back but it don't, it doesn't class me as disabled we can go down the bottom end this way yeah you know it's so quiet you know this place is, it's such a, it's such a big place, it's ever so quiet inside i'll have to take my coat before i go in because if it's a bit smoky or what have you oh i don't think it'll be smoky, i don't think there'll be enough to go round to make it smoky you not, you're not gonna take that in then? yeah i'm gonna take shortage was twenty five k gs of . you hadn't got the bags printed, the bags being printed today and tony will make it today. currently alan is having extreme difficulty in getting hold of any dried blood. apparently we're not killing as many cows as we used to. so there's a tremendous shortage, he's trying germany, he's trying all over. but the consequence is, until he gets it, we can't make any fish, blood and bone. and that applies to twenty fives and obviously pre-packs. er before i went off, we were talking about packaging, have we decided to bring any in yet? there's another few weeks have drifted and sooner or later we'll have to start making . yeah alan and i are gonna go through the details . i've got a i've got a lot of things to talk about so you know before we do . the next thing i'm not very happy about the supply of printed bags coming in from er the workshop. talking to eric yesterday, how many should she be able to do an hour, five hundred erm approximately. i said to celia how many she thinks she can do a day, she thinks about two thousand, depending on what she's doing. and when she worked here, she had her daughter working with her and they were a team and they went like a bomb. up there she's got no disrespect, somebody who's not quite as bright as they might be er and she's not working overtime as they would do here if they got behind, they're working half eight to half four is it ray? yeah. and in consequence you know, there's an accumulation. erm simon had a list well we'd come and see him the thirty first of january, tony came to me to work on it today, and that's not . all i'm saying is at the moment, she can't apparently cope with the demand on her for bags. according to tony we're going out of at the end of the month. well s well erm pete said originally, at the end of the month but it looks like, with this problem, it's gonna be phasi if we can get some off-site at the end of the month. it doesn't matter though does it if we overflow? no because all we have to do is switch it on switch it off like that. we don't give them any notice at all. but i do believe that we should seriously look at getting say, internal usage bags for nutrients er bags for lime, anything that we have printed, we ought to look at the and say to mike or get 'em printed or something. okay. alright. lynne at a meeting yesterday, tom said to ask you please, no more to be ordered. that is ian, i'll give ian a ring cos ian r rings direct. okay. erm ray can you arrange please to send one hundred thousand j e b bags up to? okay. a complaint from george er in the pre-packs this morning, reference er going through the u v a. apparently, i don't understand this but he says it's wearing out erm belts at a cost of a hundred and forty a pair every fortnight. and last night he was out back here at work at nine o'clock. and as a result of this, through the night, er angela working in u v a produced two hundred and ninety seven. eig the three k g line when the machine and everything was running properly, you'd be getting six eighty. er i mean obviously be due to right in the back. angela's er lack of experience yeah . george inexperience. and he says it's i think he was gonna talk to you about it . yeah yeah. he has done this morning, and he's talked to us about the film. i think yeah. the machine side of it. yeah yeah. we know there's a problem and we've all gone back in and . er tom has also asked for twenty tonne of anutrients to go up to. er this week's production sheet er and i wonder of ian could bear in mind that he should try and keep an extra ten tonne when he's looking at his reserves here just in case and we don't get stuck in the middle of an export . he'd already he'd seen the bags going up and he'd already got that in his head. but you see he knows he's gotta keep something back. if he can yeah. keep up a reserve here so that yeah send them five or ten tonne. yeah. er one thing stewart, erm any word for from john about the state of the ? no no . right, on the thing, just finally, there's a hundred and thirty thousand growbags here next week. and currently we've got a hundred and thirty four thousand cos we've got four days production to build up the surplus. but we've got eighteen thousand three hundred and thirty . my count at the moment, i reckon we've got scattered round the countryside, ten thousand. which would cover us for friday and monday's loadings. phil said if you wish he'll his men on saturday and sunday. right well don't have any papers on those but i thought we'd got more than that. i thought we'd got i thought we could satisfy . friday, monday and tuesday. well, friday, monday, tuesday, you're talking about nearly twelve thousand. we're almost there yes. but that's wh that's your position at the moment isn't it? that's how i take it. we've got that on the computer, that came in yesterday, that came in wherever yeah. and that came in this morning. yeah. that's the total we've got in at the moment. we've got one thousand eight hundred and ninety at and eric checked and we've got nine hundred at the other place. and they did another h eleven hundred and forty yesterday didn't they? well that's what he says they've got in stock at the moment. perhaps they've got more in transit eric do you think? lorries on the road. i don't know i don't know mate. no. i don't know. i've got a bit on that, if you want i could bring it up now while you're talking about it, i will. okay. pete while you're talking about i've got i've i've got a quickie to bring up on that. i've been on to this morning,asked me to and they have got thirty palettes there at the moment. and they and they're working away. what they say is they're getting no liaison at all when there's any lorries going in to pick any product up. it would be lovely he said if somebody could give him a ring . no let me just tell what is actually happening. who are the main people yes. actually had a program of what is going through. yes. so does tim . yes. i think it's a lack of communication ah so it's their end, not our end. yeah. they have got a program of what's being pulled out as far as the trucks are concerned. yeah. dick got one, 's have got one. the people at have got one. everybody's got the schedule of what they pull out so . yesterday what actually happened was yeah hang on a minute so it's only the poor bloke on-site who doesn't know? what happened yesterday was, they had a breakdown again. yeah. right. and they had three wagons turn up. yes. and they couldn't load three wagons. yes. they loaded i think one and two thirds. yeah. and they had to send one wagon, because they couldn't load it, over to to pick up some more yes i see. it's more so it it's yon end . i think it's just tim and and the other guy, okay. cos he he does do a hundred and one jobs. he's on . okay. the breakdown was only for an hour and a half the lorries turned up and the breakdown was happening . but the information is there, just that said i've got a guy that's been stood here for an hour, don't know what to do with him.. what was this production here last night? yeah cos it was they didn't do anything really did they . what happened was the the stuff didn't come in till quarter past four, the dust extraction didn't get done till after five, so we said, right, from six this morning till they finish it, give me bags per hour and the run. i've just timed hello. er instantaneous timing per bag fifteen seconds so that's about you know, it's two hundred odd an hour . do you want to . just a sec, hang on. . and i know they got to palletize them, wrap 'em and shift 'em and everything but er as our lot more than . mm. you know if they did . but it's brian i would like to see. the calculation it's not just the bagging, it's the bagging and the stacking . well what i'm saying though ray is really everything downstream of the baggers should be able to cope shouldn't it. you can get it through the sealers quickly and under the flattener. providing you can get it palletized and it's chucking men at it. i wanna go out i'll go out there with bryn and eric anyway as soon as we've finished cos it wants . as soon as it's finished i'll ring joseph and get one . well ring him now then, see if he's got any . the and then we'll let him know when . there's always er mr if you want to drag him . well i could take him off line. no. where is he? i mean john. oh. oh. i says to him i says, we're flexible here, you might find . erm the only other thing is, we've still got a spare man out on the haven't we, covering the breaks. we take him off and don't cover the breaks while you want him. right? well let's we'll go and have a look. yeah. me and bryn and eric . . there's not really much . we had a breakdown yesterday it was an hour and a half. apparently it was caused by dust getting in. dust got into one of the circuit breakers on the machine and apparently shorted it out. electrician in . yeah that that was solved very quickly. the problem with the truck you know about now. the plan is today to i is still three loads, and we've got three loads planned for the rest of this week. if they are double shifting it'll be on monday. just whilst they've got through eleven hours today have they? yes that that we've definitely gone to eleven hours ? yes that's what he told me, he said we were going on to for the rest of the week, eleven hours and then start double shifting monday. who's responsible for shipping it from and into here. who's the trigger, what's the trigger? to bring it in. cos it doesn't it's not gonna i don't like the way you're looking at me. we're the trigger we've got to try and schedule three pickups three baggings a day . three pickups a day. three a day. based on we can do they were doing sixty five palette loads a day. three trucks would equate to sixty six approximately. and is that to phil to get his lot over is it? i've asked phil to bring his as he produces it, bring it over. there's one in this morning i saw. has he. yeah. well it's just a question of him arranging the transport to get rid of it. it's best if he arranges the transport cos he knows what's there. yeah. well i'll tell phil then and no saturdays but also get it on a daily basis. what's erm what are we gonna work here assuming this goes? if it goes we're gonna bring the lads that finish at lines three and four so it'll be what six six till, whenever you want, ten hours? twelve hours? well that'll be from monday lynne won't it? from monday yeah. yeah. if you want i think that's alright for monday. er no cos we're what we're gonna use the product that we've got in and you need some don't you? definitely. so what we're gonna do was do what peter wanted and have from monday, if you do want us to do it. cos again no decision, it's just yes we can do it. we're just running out the material that we've got here. i dunno steve said yesterday he thought it was cheaper at . they seem to be able to cope with it far better than anybody in this group at the moment don't they. they're producing more than or well it's not a sort of a long term thing. i mean what's the position with ? well you've got the contract finite number of bags. i think if we went in again and tried to do another . they want the work i'll tell you that. they want the work. they want the work. they're keen to do it a and if you want to make any more it can be done but i think they was hoping three months work then. yeah i don't think they're doing a great er i don't think they're making a great deal of money out of it themselves. they're not. well he keeps telling me that he keeps saying . . well can we not buy it see where stocks lie. do we have to make a decision. now? well you've only got actually you've got well no only that you've got five thousand bags here anyway. the rest are out at and and you've got one load at run that load through. oh yeah it makes sense to run that load through but whether what i'm saying is whether we go on next week to a continuous . well i think you have a look at what they're doing, the only thing is if if we say they need another bloke, if you're gonna do that next week, then you've gotta plan for that before next week . that's the main problem what it is i'm ho we're holding fire the temps. the temps we're holding fire on them to know what to do with it. if you want them on a coach , they'll be i think there's six up there is there? six six so that means five five on a shift down here, we'll find something to do with them. if not we're gonna double the shift back with the mixers. we don't want to lose the men so we've got them here. yeah. and we're saying, yes you've got next week but we don't know where you are. . yeah, that's why they're here and really i would like to know by friday m tennish. let's make a decision on friday management meeting. depending on what we've got out of by then. what 's done . yeah. what the breakdown situation is . we need to look at bryn and eric and just tidy up the bits but see what they get off this then. yeah. today. yeah. get an idea of what well let's leave that let's leave yeah. to friday morning then. so friday so just flogging it to death yeah. at the minute, we're waiting for some bits for this should be in today. yeah yeah yeah but we're that that would enable a double shift to be done decide not to run a double shift only because it would have meant stopping the pre-pack. no it doesn't no no no that's what we've been prior to getting the yeah yeah. but that was why as i understood it, that was why i wanted the sealer. yeah. well arthur wants the sealer anyway because if you're not doing over there, you'll have double shift working on pre-packs. so it still wants i still want to get it going but i don't want to put a double shift onto unless i have to. . pre-packs. mm. the message i got was that the last few days it didn't matter a bugger what it cost but we were in desperate straights to get in stock. what we're saying now really, that's not quite. well i'm saying i still don't know, the figures that i'm being given suggest that by friday, erm or by monday, we'll have sufficient to meet the orders of . the fifteen . it's on there steve, and the amount that the eighteen the allocation is eighteen thousand. by friday night we'll have sixteen thousand of those right. now that's the worst scenario given that you get five hundred a day out of yeah. and you get fourteen hundred a day out of. mm. now that would be the worst scenario . they should do two thousand plus. then then okay, two thousand plus. and then you've got however many you're gonna get off the line here between now and well you're gonna get whatever and did seven hundred in el in eleven hours on monday. so they've upped slightly. seven hundred. but they did four hundred last night breakdown. but we know are going on to double shift on monday yes it's eleven hours this week. the problem is . they should do you'll get two thousand on monday. yes. and that's without going onto a double shift that's right. at . that's right. that's why i'm saying let's wait while i think so. friday and make a decision on friday without panicking into a decision . if things change in the meantime we could always we could always ch we could always well we've got the o we've got the you've got the option. the people yeah. and we've got the people here. why look for spending extra money when you don't need to? alright let's review at but let's make a decision on friday about what we do on the shift pattern on monday. okay just before we go off peter's erm the first comment you made peter was about ten k gs of yes. the computer says there was some and there isn't any . yes. i think this is erm it it's an extremely worrying fact as far as i'm concerned, i got a phone call from chris just before this meeting. he wants er to to get together with ian and myself ian and myself straight after this meeting. because he's saying that the january stock take is quite is al is impossible to reconcile. bloody hell. he says he just can't backtrack. he says there's so many differences . quite honestly steve . it's very difficult at this moment to say we're not talking about finished stock you know, you're gonna get fluctuations on product, but what worries me, i don't know at this stage how many tonnes of bone meal we've got stashed away somewhere or how many tonnes of compost maker we've got stacked anywhere for use in the pre-pack. because that information is not in the computer at the moment. can i just i think it's fairly important that if we'd have actually done the reconciliation, last week, we'd have had the opportunity to recheck them. which wasn't possible because chris was saying it wasn't possible to do. we might not be in this situation now. but i thought that er with coming off that, malcolm was going on to that. malcolm was doing part of it. sorry i'm not laying any criticism anywhere i know you're not steve but all i'm saying is that we had a discussion about this earlier in the week. chris refuses to do something i'm afraid when somebody's already done three quarters of the work, you can't put somebody on to do the last quarter. mm. and chris was already inputting all of the data. and when he was offered help he said, no, i will do it myself. and we've been waiting and waiting and waiting now for a week to get this reconciliation at least together so that we could go out and re-count whatever was required. eric and myself went out and did a physical re-count last week of wha a whole bay of because numbers weren't adding up. mm. we went and did that ourselves it needed that concerted effort. and i'm not being funny but when malcolm did it, we would do that almost two or three days after the stock taking if there were odd counts. that's the question i asked this morning, why wasn't it you know, why weren't we doing it? and i think i think the reconciliation what he's actually saying is he hasn't got time to recheck those reconciliations before this weekend's deadline that's what it appears to be . and that's that's not good enough. no it's not, agreed. and and chris has just put his head in his hands and said i can't do it. mm. it's not a matter of they're not reconcilable, i think there has to be a strong point that's made. and i think peter's been saying this for almost well since he's come back anyway that, i can't work because the stock figures have not been updated. monday's production's not in. tuesday's production's not in. and i said to chris, you know, i said to chris yesterday, are you putting in the production or have you put i can't do two jobs at once, i can't do two jobs at once and that was it. so at five o'clock last night when i called down,i didn't respond. i just ignored it. at five o'clock i said to chris i said, how about if i ask cindy if she can help. it's bugger all to do with me but my interest is getting the in. no! no! now cindy's saying to me, i can put it in. mm. so if you if you're having words with chris if you can say well i am. if you you know well i think we we should reaction was happening with malcolm last week. how malcolm was asking how he could help and you can't unfortunately take it away on block like i said, and give it to someone and say, finish it off. and the other is, why should i clear up the mess that this guy's made. yeah. i don't think it was a lousy stock take. i think the the count etcetera went alright. i think it's the reconciliation based on perhaps some of the problems that we had at the lost last stock take which are accelerated you know probably the odd miscount here and there this time. mm. i mean i looked through it this time. mm. i mean i looked through it yesterday and th there are a few reconciliations which wouldn't take much sorting out. small ones. there appear to be a lot jotted throughout, but they don't amount to a vast amount of money. i d i don't know the problems at the moment. i think it's worth looking at. yeah. first actually. yeah perhaps that's yeah alright i'll retract that. i don't know whether it was a lousy stock take or not. the the reconciliations suggesting that it wasn't a good stock take. yeah. when i was speaking t very very briefly erm to ian before before i came down he said, well i'm really not surprised, the the the continuing problem and difficulty in establishing what's on the palette, as to whether it's lawn feed and weed, lawn feed and , for example. and erm why should that be. i think prob problems of identification haven't really been right this time and we made a point a clear point this time with a note to people, if they weren't sure, to make comments on the books. i think if you look through the books, there are comments in there where they weren't sure, with question marks and they were to be rechecked. the problem is it's not got to that stage yet. yeah. i mean th that is that's crazy. absolutely yeah, i mean i and i i'll reiterate it and i'm not siding with malcolm but two days after the stock taking they did prior to this one, we were out there rechecking. mm. out rechecking with malcolm in cahoots to say, well show me where you counted these and let's do it again. yeah. that's not happened, there's been absolutely zero coordination either on a daily basis here. but malcolm chris, have you got the numbers yet, have you got them crunched? oh well, i'll got to enter another few . i i feel a bit sorry for for some of the counters because they can see certain on one palette for instance, i found there were three sorts of bags. just on one palette. and if you didn't have the expertise to know ah well i know what's in there, then what the hell does that person count they've got to go and chase somebody to to find out these were from erm from . there was there was ten ten ten bags, there was eleven five five , ah right. there was spring and summer and you thought well, what's what like you know we but as ray said, all they got to do is query it haven't they. yeah but everything was queried you look at oh the yeah. books and they were all queried. i'm partly agreed with you the fact that the stock take at the end of the day we got it right, but all i'm saying it was very difficult difficult to count yeah. and we could make it better by making sure that the bags came in more correct like what simon's doing now with those printed labels. every bags gonna have a printed label on. so steve you were here on the day. mm. we were supposed to start at six o'clock. i mean some of us were in at six. no no no it wasn't supposed to start at six, it was supposed to start at seven thirty. no chris should have been in at six, that's when the first team started counting. most of the teams that we'd organized that we sent notes round to start at seven thirty. yeah. when you got in there at seven thirty, chris wasn't there and the books weren't there and people were waiting around ready to get off. it it wasn't organized well from that point of view. i i'd asked chris to organize it and it wasn't. okay. i think the fact that the books were filled out correctly and i think you should give the people that did the stock take, congratulations because the books were filled out reasonably well considering some of their ex inexperience in it. i think they did a good job on the day and they stayed until the counts were done. in fact i do believe one team was here till about two thirty doing it yeah. i know chris was here doing doing his own calculations on books but after that i mean the i think on the sunday i he came in and did some work . and then the stock stock take was dropped then for four or five days. and we got malcolm in to enter some of the input, we got joe to enter some of the input. but the final reconciliation has taken so long. mm. even after i mean, as i say, we went out on the wednesday and he said, all i need is for you to do this book again for me. for god's sake. i mean we did that on the wednesday, and he said that's all i need now. monday it was. and it's now straight after . middle of the following week and we got the first reconciliation yesterday. okay. i i don't have anything further to bring up, there are no packaging issues . . yeah erm just to clarify one thing, chutes and blockage up in chutes and s when the screen blocks up. who's job is it to dig it out or clean it out? that's what i'd like to know cos there's a lot of confusion going on out there. in terms of what ray . well a lot of people out there think it's a fitter's job to clean chutes out and unblock screens. i in my personal opinion i i don't think it is. . if you need tools to do it, then a fitter initially and then if the help comes from the people that are stuck because it's not working anyway, to help clean out. mm. well there's a prime example at the moment down the sedge hopper. which we call the sedge hopper on the line. now i've looked at that this morning, we are getting spillage because the chute is that blocked up, there's that much polythene round the flail which we had a fire on before, down there and the stuff is piled right up, you can't even see the bottom tail drum. and the conveyor that takes the stuff away. now you know, it's alright, we can't stop spillage, we never will stop spillage. but i think we with the wet stuff we've had going through, the chute is blocking up. and not getting cleaned out. pete got some cleaning up done last saturday which is you know, round the er screen, that area's all been cleaned up but obviously he ain't got enough blokes to to get the lot done. clean them. well apparently so yeah. yeah. . yeah, basically it's always been but it hasn't been enforced for quite some time, that the clean up rate is four pounds and hour which equates to six pound an hour on a saturday. yeah, cos it's time and a half ? mm. now erm when paul came in he unfortunately come in and clean up come in and clean up and they were put on their own rate which they should never have been. right l i'd said to paul now have you told them it's . oh no i haven't. so they got paid their own rate. so they've been used to their own rate and i said each time, if you're gonna get you must tell them it's the cleanup rate. so probably three months went by where they got their own rate. so i says to pete, right, start as we mean to go on, i refuse to pay any more than the cleanup rate. so he goes out there and they all turn round and say, stuff you, i'm not coming in to clean up for four pound and hour which again equates to six pound an hour. so we got mark i think was the only erm full timer off the compost plant that agreed to come in. mm. and two or three temps and the rest were a couple of temps from the mixing plant. now pete has said he's not gonna give in. it's four pound an hour and it stands. when dick's lads are down to seven and a half hours which they are in the erm summertime, i mean we s the lads'll come in i mean we can't pull them off now, but those lads'll come in and clean up. permanent lads will come in and clean up. but no they're just being damn awkward i'm sorry. so pete said, right, they're not gonna beat me, it's four pound an hour and that's it. so they turn round and say, i'm not coming in. but they'll come in if we want cutting out and cos they get their own rate. well if they're going onto eight hour regular they'll probably they'll probably still change their mind . you see as i said, they might have just actually cut off their nose to spite their face . well they i think yes i think they really got to play them at their own game really. and i'm sorry. mm. it's been hard work for us but we're not giving in in here and that's it . oh it is, i mean i that responsibility. they they would come in mate if it was on their own rate but as soon as you. there's a erm if there's a need for 'em to clean this saturday, say they need to clean round that sedge well i i think there's a necessary to clean up this i i'll try and get a gang well no, what you want to do, ask that same gang that came in last week, i will. and bugger the rest. yeah. ask those same blokes specifically i mean, i've had an offer from who said i'll come in any saturday but i can't take him off dick cos dick needs him there. but when it comes to the you know, when all our temps are gone, then the first people that'll get asked are dick's lads who've said, yes we'll do it, providing dick doesn't want us. i wouldn't i wouldn't give them the option, i would go and ask those same ones you had in last week. as long as you've got somebody here that can underneath the screen up in the pie in the sky i mean that i mean i've known that when you've only got about that much where you should have that. and it's maybe narrowed down to that. which the fitters'll take the side off for 'em, yeah. but to get in to clean it out what i might actually do it see if ian's not doing anything if he not come in for the full time that they're cleaning up, but come in for those sort of things. well as long as the chutes get cleaned out you see that we're getting a lot behind that sleeper wall in between the packing line and the sleeper wall again. i mean, an incident happened last week er the fitter went up they asked the fitter if they could track the belt up on the top. so the lad went up and tracked it. he come back to me he says, it's spilling over the top because the chutes are blocked up he says i'll tell the track driver, the track driver says, oh well get the to clean that up. i said, like hell you will. like hell you will. i've had bloody platforms put up there to make it a lot easier for people to get up there. i mean i could understand when we had to climb up the belt which was damn dangerous, but now we've altered all that. but they keep thinking i mean i've got like forty days holiday my staff to get in in fif in fifty days left. you know it's it's a problem. will you will you for saturday though do that, see ian and make sure he knows what wants do what you think wants doing. and make sure that he isolates the plant. ian did come in one saturday for me last year and he and he did yeah i will see him yeah we'll see if he'll come in and do something like that again. yeah. you will see him before and have a word with him because he he knows what chutes is blocked up and what wants cleaning out. but as i say, we can take the plates off the screen underneath here but i mean i think you still ought to have another bloke well get together with ian and sort of up there with him to clean it out because i say, you can isolate things but you're up in the air. yeah. and that and that's what well as long as he knows what wants doing, as long as they're safe. well . erm i've been out as on the er line three this morning and i think there's another little bit we ought to buy but we'll discuss that as we're going on eh ? mm. erm the u v a machine, the problem we've got on there which ray's explained or peter raised this morning, there is in between the the drive belts that take the film down the former and which they've put a new set on which is a hundred and forty pound a pi they're in between the two drive wheels, there is a plastic adjuster. and what it does really is keep the belt firm so when it goes on the former it keeps it firm . that is worn. and one's been on er apparently i didn't know this but george showed me this morning. brian made on and put on. well it ain't lasted. i think it's only lasted about eight or ten weeks. and it's worn. so what i'm doing now i've got one of the lads down at er plastics mm. yes they have got some stuff, yes he's gonna get a price to make some on this hard plastic that we've got on the . mm. erm which i think that's gonna solve one of the problems. it's gonna be cheaper doing it that way than going through u v a . u v a yeah. erm as i say but but that is on there. now the mix-up we had yesterday, er on a lot of aggro when i got about this dust extract system one line three. i don't know whether people think they can move a dust extract in an hour or two hours. er we're limited with people and while brian was in the verge of moving it which the electrics all had to be took out and rerun, he got called away, down to the pre-packs to a breakdown so obviously it didn't get done, the job stopped cos there's nobody else. when i come back in, things was all up in the air because while he was moving the first position of the dust extractor, there's a radio there. and we'd squared it up once before because there was wires hanging all over from the sp not from the radio, from the speakers. and we asked them to tie it up, the lads made a bloody job i think they tied it up for coming round. which they did do, but yesterday when brian went to move the dust extractor that the radio was at the side of, there was wires hanging again like bloody clothes line again. so straight away he said, that's it i i'll condemn it. and that's when he lost cooperation with the workers out there. they buggered him about apparently. went and signed the forklift off and signed the keys out and generally well he was moving with the forklift, their forklift and he come back and he says pete was out there and i know a lot of tempers got frayed. yeah said i walked away. yes quite right . it was it was personalities yeah. more than anything. and i said to brian you know he's out there wasn't it yesterday. you know i did say to brian yeah well at the end of the day i mean i i wasn't there but a the facts at the end of the day were that they'd been buggering about with that radio system which they shouldn't do. no. so i said to brian, right leave it. i think the best thing there would be to leave it for a week, yeah. let 'em have it back yeah. on condition that they don't do anything silly with it. that way brian's had his they've got their it's yeah yeah radio back and everything should be status quo. yeah. but they shouldn't do that. they're not they aren't allowed they aren't qualified to bugger about with well that have actually been told that if anything comes in providing this is what i can't get through we've said to them you can bring your radios in but give to brian first. to check. let brian check them it's not the radio though it's not they they've put some speakers on it haven't they. they bloody speakers all over the place. i mean the mixer's just as bad but really we've got on to them brian did and they made a good job, they squared it up. but i mean i mean we still walk round there's wires hanging and connectors . mm. now . well it shouldn't be done anyway. it shouldn't be done end of story as far as i'm concerned. but i think i think it was the way maybe the way brian approached them you know, i think there's a little bit on both sides but it was a bit of yeah. to come back in and get bloody aggro like that and it's you know and it brian'd be under stress anyway having to move that er dust extractor quickly and he's well he got called away. had to go to a breakdown, the poor bloke didn't know whether he was coming or going so one of these situations that stress stress arrives. yeah but as i say i just want to make it clear to people that it's er it's a bit of both and i think a bit of bit of heated argument was this morning they're different again down there cos i've been down there and i've looked at the situation erm and i've had a word with the lads there and i will try and alter it a little bit more. which i'm g give them a week then and give them their radio back then. i gave them some er jackets and trousers that i got in stock down there that's that's that's it then yeah . i see. er us i went to yesterday the the the borehole is now fully covered in secure er and the water system is working well. i as well but he's still a load of water on the top. a lot of water. did you get the . took it home last night . he took it home last night i w i got it going i got the time on it but i he couldn't find an eleven year old kid to do it. because it's like an m f i. y all you need is an eleven year old kid, you can't do it can you. take it home and sort it out. well apparently paul his his erm his mate up there he's done works on the b t so he'll set it for him. nobody works for b t. only the buggers that send the bills out. while i was there we had the council man there. and he he wasn't he said they can only stand the water problem so long so what they can do with it i don't know. i keep saying i said to dennis, well it's on our property. there will be a report coming through because the chap from the council believe it or not, said, oh this should be undercover. and it's true it's right. dennis said, i've got asthma, you're not putting this under cover. but i mean when i went going towards they were screening it you know, seeing it. it was . water on then. yeah. well you see you you don't put water on when you put screening system no. it's when it comes through isn't it. the stuff that they're using now is crap it's nothing like it once was it's just so it's just absolute dust. sawdust isn't it. well when tom it's wo it's p it's not actually sawdust it's wood flour. it is yeah. absolutely crap yeah it's nothing like it was i mean why you know what i don't know what's changed in the meantime or whether we're paying different rates or whatever, but if you take the material that we were getting in two three years ago when first time i was involved, it's just absolutely nothing like. and there's no wonder it's blowing away cos it's just lighter than air. i mean in terms of stock well it is you're right. in stock out i shudder to think. i mean yesterday was yesterday really was there wasn't a deal of wind at all but bloody sandstorm if it dries up for three or four days it's st dries up for three or four days and dennis has to stop the minute he picks it up it's just blown away. that's right, you get so much in the hopper you get seventy five percent yeah and it's blown away. in the hopper whup and then the rest is in the field. well that's the first first i've heard about the change to it. do you want to samples bringing d pete's going up on tomorrow. yeah pete's going up tomorrow do you want some who's responsible who's responsible who buys the timber? who buys the d i y. well it's bought in it was an original contract that was but we buy it through here. we set the contract up. technology. technology. mm. it's been going ongoing for eighteen months two years change it do you want some samples bringing down tom tom tom knows what it's like cos last time i was up there yesterday tom was and chris turner was up there and we went past an heap and it and we said is that a lorry-load and dennis said, well it was at this morning. i've got some original samples down here what's changed is that they in in the early days we used to get the offcuts and they they were ideally they used to put those through a hogger which is a thing that breaks it down and it's these it's worktops yeah. yeah. that they break down. so you end up with a particle if you look at that it's particles about two or three mills square. and then what they used to put with that on each of the machines that have dust extract system. so if they were where the machine was planing or moulding or whatever, the material'd be sucked away like ours is into bins and then that used to go with the material we used to get. and that would be finer. the way it looks now as if somebody else is getting the material that was the lumps maybe that's going to er what's his name technology and we're getting the crap, we're getting dust. was there a specification set at the beginning do you know on this hardly there's hardly anything there's hardly anything written down at all about this. sorry. i've got a deal in writing this. as far as the specification's concerned i mean obviously i think it says something very simple like d i y wood waste yeah i d i think there's hardly anything in writing. i did in december but it was not relative to any of the specifications it was simply to try and ascertain how long the contract was was still live, to find out get this guy well according to barry of technology it doesn't finish it's ongoing . arthur erm arthur actually met with him as well on that particular day. mm. but there was no talk at the time about . i think what you and i ought to do is sit down we ought to list the pros and cons and problems of and look at them afresh and then maybe talk to tom anyway. what vis a vis well well if you take the site as a whole i mean there are numerous problems. they've got a problem at the minute where the electrics aren't very good . yeah. you've got the fact that you we're paying dennis but we don't employ dennis you know he's he's so there there's the extra cost there what you wouldn't have anywhere else. hello? the things that they yes. the implications that are onto that and we've got . i'm just in a meeting at the minute. and really coming over at dinner. i mean tea break. you've just got back. i'll give you a ring when i've finished then. alright . what's the difference between i jotted down this morning. we've got according to the information i've been given we've got seven thousand cubic metres of which is useful no this is processed d i y. well according to dennis he thinks it's eight thousand. alright, seven to eight thousand. yeah. we've got nine thousand of raw material not processed. yeah. the takes it to twel it's a twelve week cycle isn't it? yeah. so we have four, five six, seven, eight, nine we haven't even got enough to see us through the next twelve months. but twelve weeks. but out of this out of that seven thousand some are s weeks plus. some already been down four weeks, five weeks six weeks . what of the eight thousand cubic metres. yeah now i'm assuming that's twelve weeks is it? is that yeah. th the the eight the processed one are twelve weeks ready to go out the door. that's twelve weeks. now i have i've asked dennis and chris 's insisted that he deals with it so chris has taken it over, and dennis is getting back to chris with the stockpiles of how much is ten weeks old, eleven you know so so you right so the the nine thousand raw material not processed, in fact some of it's processed in various stages of some wh is ready yeah some is is on the road to being processed. i had a word with tom yesterday, it was me who brought this up. i was concerned, dennis has never been given any schedule since he last spoke to erm arthur which was get as much down as you can boy. i mean it was like that. he works like that. now i was concerned that nobody although they were looking at the water, they were looking at the borehole, they were looking at the electric, nobody was actually looking at production up there. and where we stood. so i said, tom, like i says to tom. he then said, right you ring dennis, get the stockpiles and wha cos apparently paul used to flag them. yes. he started a system of flags didn't he. mm yeah. he puts the date that it's laid down and then he knows how many weeks you know, this is ready in three weeks time. so then tom had a word with chris and chris insisted that he did it. because he's got a plan of the site so he wants to know with his little squares, what's what. and dennis is now going straight back to chris and he's going to give him so he's probably got it now. it's d i y really not a function i don't think. not in terms of controlling what's down there and what's mulching. they they all that we can do is to that needs to be more production yes. specification if we know what it's meant to which is since we had him here last time but we just ain't had time to get it do by . and also he's dropping in with unnecessary and you know, when i'm short staffed. i think the think is though if you're not careful . well it is and i'm going concerned i mean it's i mean it's like now i mean th we've got leaking taps and plugs missing, i've got toilet rolls what you wanna do is i've just done a seven day report on the er on hazard spotting etcetera etcetera etcetera and all the different surveys we've had on the site over the past month. mm. plus risk management meetings, works committee meetings, work from. i think we can keep 'em going another week anyway. you've got another you've got another report coming from . well i mean i yeah. i think what you want to do now , write down a list of what you want him to do and let steve do that for tomorrow if you can and then let's see if we can make him stick to that list cos otherwise he'll be here in another fortnight saying can i give another fortnight. when we get this list typed up that joanne's doing at the moment, yeah. then you probably have to take it from that and i think you'll find there's a weeks work on there. i'll . and now we're doing down the pre-packs on the saturday, apparently that's coming off my budget. the hours are being . yeah. george's hours are in the pre-pack. yeah because they they they are not in your maintenance budget. they're not on my budget. no. i left his hours in the pre-pack i think this is quite interesting the only one that's gone down to yours is bill last week for those four and a half hours doing that interceptor. that's the only thing i've charged to you. all the rest has been kept by myself . so i've got something spare now. piece of metal put up over the entrance to the compost plant please. it's gonna be like omen two one day. bloody decapitated. what do you mean, shut them big doors and lock 'em? no just the piece of corrugated iron that's just about to drop off no it's not dropping off. now be be sure that it's all in the pre-packs, it's been taken by the pre-pack department yeah. yeah. and it's not gone to yours. anyway who who do you think's gonna stand my pay while i'm ? yeah. eh you've got . you've got it all now. er now that is another thing peter about that hanging sheet. but have you seen the state of the doorway what somebody's clobbered. can't blame me have you seen it? that bay three doorway. no the big doors? and they've clouted it from the outside going in. could that be a lorry reversing in to tip sand and grits in it? don't know. sand and grit bay's this way not that way. but er that i mean and then there's that's another thing we ought to look round, there's the state of the shed outside on the r main road. yes yeah it's not very good. it's not it wasn't very good in nineteen eighty four. well somebody else has clobbered it now ain't they further down. have they? yeah. but anyway that's all my moans and groans this morning. you know there was something wrong i was sitting listening i mean i'm not been involved when you were talking about the stock take somewhere along the line a few things have slipped because when you go back, in the days when i used to be morning stock takes, we used to before the event, you would nearly always have the counts done. i'm thinking now, the areas i used to do, the prepacks. i used to really go down there and all i did was sort of tick off what the lads had already done. cos used to tell 'em when it was gonna be and they would have time before the event to get it all tidied up, it was all ready, he would in and say, there's such and such on that one, such and such on this one a four letter word dick, time. and he would you would really only have to verify because at the end of the day what you said about you you mentioned somewhere along there ray about given the fact that they were inexperienced. and that's a problem because you really want the blokes counting who are used to counting precisely. because otherwise you or i can only take your best estimate. oh aye if if if you have the people doing it who know what they're doing you've really only got to look at what they're counting. in fairness, the people what did it well yeah i mean bear in mind bear in mind you've got a week's notice to put one together. mm. the most people that we could get together in a weeks notice, we have to put the actual amalgamation of the team yeah i'm not i'm not over to someone else anyway. and malcolm sorted that out as you know. yeah i'm not criticizing that. what i'm saying is we did the best we could that maybe it shouldn't have been a we a weeks notice then. yeah. correct but even the one prior to that which was apparently wrong which i think a lot of things were reconciled well we don't know whether it was wrong or not do we? no exactly but i think prior to that, we did do what you're suggesting, we did go round all the areas, dick, myself and malcolm and chris, walked round all the areas, told told the people what needed tidying up to go in the it was before we had the racking up by the way so it was more messy yeah yeah down there. and we tidied those areas up and we went round and said right, the people with the problem areas, take 'em round and show them. we designated the areas, we chalked 'em off, we did as much as we could pre-prep. this time there wasn't time to go round and do that. mm. malcolm, myself and chris went round i think it was two days before, looked for the well it's a lot tidier that it was the previous time because of the new racking. mm. it is easier to count, there's not so much in the aisles as there were. the problem area's going to be the yard because we didn't have enough people to count the yard. we wanted to split it into three, mm. we had to split it into two. i volunteered then to do one of the yards because you know, you're asking other people to do it, it was gonna be a nightmare. and you did have the odd team of people like don and tina who o obviously hadn't done things before. but most of the teams that was hardly sorry. they scribes, but even then if you've got somebody climbing up the top of a palette, shouting the people were they was only scribes people i mean what's on a palette. yeah but we spent three hours, lynne, malcolm, myself sorting that list out and everybody what was on the stock take who was worked in that area. i mean it it we we actually got the expertise and the people. we we had problems because there wasn't an awful lot we had the good old ones back again. we had loretta and wendy and terry , they'll come and do it. a lot of 'em you know where's mr . but i mean you know, we didn't have much. i've got a lot in reserve, you've got a i honestly had to bully eric to get a list. i r you had a word with him didn't you? mm. so i rang him a bit later, now look, we've got a weeks notice, we know it's gonna take some time. so i rang him up i said, eric i haven't had time to ask anybody, i thought, well i'll bloody come down and ask you then. we got that much cooperation from up there didn't we. i mean tina said,i i haven't done it before but if you need a scribe, i'll come in. and we had people coming back after they'd actually done their run out there saying, do you want any help with i mean that's what we asked them for yeah we had a lot of people offering help. and they gave it. so i mean a as a team it wasn't really a problem at the end of the day. we ran short of numbers to do it if you like, from seven thirty to to twelve initially, in terms of the original count and the original people when they'd finished their count. but if that that was only i was gonna say the other thing, when you're talking about damage you know, at one time i would suggest that a good many years, you wouldn't see any damage out there. no no. and something's changed in the intervening time, i mean i know there's aggravation and times are hard, i know we've cut back on the hours and the rest, but there's a lot of things that aren't good . there's a lot more going out the gate for a start stu. oh yeah yeah. there's a lot hell of a lot more going out the gate yeah. and it ain't coming in the gate. yeah but we've had we've had times before peter when there's been huge pressure. thanks bryn i think you've proved the point really by the the length of these meetings. o normally a meeting of this type should take twenty minutes. mm. because because there's so many there's so many things that are going on at the moment that it it does take time. primarily because it's that time of the year when things will start going bad. we're just at the beginning of it and this is going to go on till the end of april or may now, it'll be like this. chaos. cos it's that sort of business. well no well i don't think it needs to be. that i know we're flogging a dead horse, but that half past ten, a phenomenal amount of time, it should never ever have taken a fraction of that if it had been done properly. well how many weeks stuart have we been talking in here about bre you wouldn't know because you haven't been in here. but we've been talking about it for three four months . every day. there's water on the site, bloody, there's a borehole problem. mm. he's gotta get a generator. and it goes round and around and around and around. well it's true . and the same things are spoken about every day. mm. yeah but you may spend that bloody standing at end of a bloody airfield here thinking nothing's been done . no no no bryn i'm just saying you know, the reason the meetings are going on but there is i mean i've assured him that things are being done. but it takes time. bring the same things up. all these massive problems that end result . yeah. oh yeah. yeah yeah. but as i say i mean i i accept what they say that you that's right i mean the the i mean it's part of isn't it that's . hello. okay. but i mean finish this idea pettiness you know, but you're just waiting while they get their load done, to come up with some suggestion. i mean that might be er a solution to our water problem. i've spoken to him yesterday you did? yeah, i've spoken to tom, he wants me to get an outline price which i'll do today. . okay bryn let's get on. yeah that's alright. eric. . and that's about i think that's about w vaguely covered everything. apart from one thing, the the lads out at taking this . apparently when they're not on the lines, there's . and they're doing a pretty good out there for us and ray went out there cos they're restacking all the other stuff. re-palleting about ten thousand bales re-palletizing it all. so when it actually comes it's gonna be a lot cheaper cos we're not gonna send the lads up. you you do. it is bless 'em. i mean you know how much it costs don't you, for me to send those lads up there, we worked it out steve. now hopefully, dick said they're palletizing while they're waiting for the containers they're also palletizing the rest of that stuff. so can we give 'em some bonus for their work up there. can we have some bonus. how are you gonna work that out? . i might as well be it's what we used to do if we took them off a line and got them cleaning up, it's a token tow pound ten a day. yeah. ten pound fifty the week. yeah. please. mm. thank you. is everything still alright up there eric? yeah it's going fine sir, yeah. going fine. and is there a chance we'll give a little bit extra for the hour to cos he's organized it, he's taken yeah he's not the charge hand, he's taken charge, he's taken responsibility. something like the line leader rate. which is about ten pence an hour extra. is he gonna on friday have have fax both to er and to erm s s s to fetch the elevator and the generator the generator away . yeah yeah. i'll i'll ask mark to stay there while while they're collecting it. yeah. yeah? yeah that's okay. he should be that lot three anyway. yeah. well i could always ring and ask them to get the container up here earlier on friday you see so well whatever time you say. if i say if i say three well you can make it three if you want. we'll be finished with it at three. right then i'll tell them three. cos i mean, the generator's not a problem anyway. re oh it is for the yeah i was thinking of the lights and them we hardly use the lights. saturday because mark mark three of us what about bringing your own lights make sure everything is safe for the containers to come in. so that's already gone through.. yeah well that what about your elevator sort that out next week or is it are you leaving the elevator up here? well no it doesn't container we don't want the other one back you see. yeah. we shan't nee the other one well so that one's got to go back to back to cambridge then hasn't it. yeah i've arranged that but i if the lights if erm well caravan weren't we. three months time. well you won't get 'em in in er so three o'clock friday then we ought to be the lights before i suppose. yeah. can't we? oh yeah you can fetch the lights. you can fetch the lights friday morning, seven o'clock friday morning . how many more consignments are like that steve? eh? how many more lots like that? how many more lots have come in? equivalent to what we've had. erm we've had it'd be about. what have we had, we've had twenty twenty footers in. yeah. twenty. that's twenty five, twenty, fifty five. erm equivalent of fifty five twenty footers. so two and a half times as much again. it was about twenty five more yeah two and half two and half time. so about another er two two and a half weeks then, maybe a bit less. maybe doing two weeks. well i think yeah we could put it up to three a day we'll got cos there isn't quite so much messing about you know. we could certainly go for three . when you say you want ,will it do a forty footer? no it'll go twenty foot. . yeah but i yeah but i mean. seven people here doing it . no. it'll go about fifteen foot into the . it's just whether it's worth having the hire for that one doing forty foot. well i think the one we've got is actually longer than the one you've got. i've never seen it fully extended actually so i forty foot. yeah well it probably will be cos but it i mean they've never had to go to that extension have they? you see, with it being twenty foot, so so i've never seen it fully extended. okay yeah. yeah i've just got when this by the way when you've finished. right, a few problems yesterday, a forklift and trailer keys not being signed in and i had taking them home. yeah. pete says nobody's pointed a finger, can we get big fobs on like hotel keys so they don't take the damn things home or leave them in their pockets. or if you yeah you're right i mean can we have big fobs on them or something so as they don't put the bloody things in their pockets? . can you put that on his list for next week? yeah er yeah it is a good idea. right, ian concerned that are hauling in grain into brig then loading six five thirty five. apparently according to we are supposed to grain free t certificates. yes. we haven't seen one yet. yeah but it's in hand. that's alright. 's slinging a bit of shit. that's alright. just for a change. bless him. right, there's one for you. got that sorted he was speaking to guy yesterday and apparently if after two days we don't have certificates then i hello? yeah. yeah. yeah it'll be about five minutes and then he'll be down. alright . check with him communicated that with ian some problem i think on line three. can you go down when we've finished. right we're going down in a minute, yeah. stu ste erm pete said the erm hopper nineteen, have any answers, anything been thought on that one? well he's supposed to be testing it. left it with er well he's put it on here give me an answer on what steps we should carry out on hopper nineteen. which is now empty or is it a sloop bed problem? so you want them to do no i'll see him . will you? i thought they'd done it because ray i asked a question the other morning in the tardis, cos it was on the board. you know they set out what yeah. and i says to ray, aren't we using hopper nineteen? he says, yeah i've just used it, worked perfectly. apparently he did use it but with a different he didn't put nutrients in it did he. i don't know i don't know no apparently there's no problem at all. test with it it was all arranged i thought, testing to see what weight they got can you just please. and oh probably after this meeting, not now, apparently peter came and see me about samples procedure, i e marketing. so you, me, dick cos we're the ones that it's it's gonna be somebody they're gonna pull off aren't they, to do these samples. maybe brian but what they want is initial contact point for somebody. samples for what? marketing samples. well they haven't got anybody marketing have they? they pull on well that's debatable i think they've got plenty of people up here to do it it's just that they don't want to do it . what about the young girl they got up here?young girl's here. isn't she there one day a week? i've no idea. probably what what they'll be calling for is empty packaging, erm you know what it's like, pristine condition, samples for sales that go out you know, to customers. i mean, the answer is that somebody's got to have a bit of experience to do it. it's not . what's that got to do with peter then? well it's go apparently there's got to be a procedure . it to be five seven five o. hello? sorry phil? it's only ten past ten. okay thanks. so again after this meeting cos i want to tie it up. it's gonna yeah sometime. peter's whingeing that he wants peter? . is there a seconder? seconded my lord . i call upon councillor to move amendment h standing in his name. is there a seconder? councillor my lord mayor, under standing order a fifteen b, i move the vote now be put. all those in favour that the vote be now put? fifty those against? that's carried, fifty to thirty six. those in favour of amendment h moved by councillor ? those against? that's lost, thirty four to fifty thirty four to f . that that's lost, thirty four to fifty. those in favour of amendment g moved by councillor ? the amendment moved by councillor . those in favour? two two. those against? there's a lot more than two well, there's a lot more than two. those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of councillor . come come? they don't really know here wh fifty four those against? yes that's lost, thirty four to fifty. those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of ex-councillor d c . those in favour please show? mhm? those against? thirty six fifty that's carried fifty to thirty six that is carried fifty votes to thirty six, now becomes a substantive motion. those in favour of the substantive motion please show. those against those against? carried that's carried fifty thirty six that's carried, fifty votes to thirty six. item fourteen on the agenda, community council. in a in accordance with standing order a twelve c in force at the time, councillor notice of motion on community council was referred by the council on the twenty third of april 1991 to the policy and resources committee. the report of the committee is set out in committee document m referred to on the agenda. at the same council meeting an amendment er to the motion was formally moved by councillor and seconded and was also submitted to the committee. call upon council to move amendment i standing in his name. have i a seconder? fifteen b i move the vote now be put. er, those in favour of the substantive motion please show. it's councillor motion. those against? fifty thirty six that's carried, fifty votes to thirty six. item fifteen on the agenda, sum of poll tax. in accordance with standing order a twelve c in force at the time councillor notice of motion on sum of poll tax was referred to th by the council on the twenty third of april 1991 to policy and resources committee. the report of the committee is set out in committee document n referred to on the agenda. at the same council meeting amendments to motion were formally moved by councillor and ex-councillor respectively, and seconded and were also submitted to the committee. mhm? my lord mayor under standing order a fifteen b, i move the vote now be put. those in favour the vote be now put? yes those against may now vote those against? thirty six, carried fifty thirty six carried, fifty thirty six. now then, those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of ex-councillor please show. well, those against. i rather think there's more than two. er, those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of councillor and submitted to council on the twenty third of april? those against? yes that's lost, fifty four to thirty two thirty four thirty four f thirty four fifty two. those in favour of the substantive motion please show. those against lord mayor those against? fifty thirty six that's carried that's carried fifteen thirty six fifteen votes to thirty six we move on to motion, notices of motion. the first one is on pr is on proportional representation for all elections. call upon councillor to move the motion. moved lord mayor seconder? seconded lord mayor call upon councillor to move amendment k standing in his name. i move lord mayor is there a seconder? seconded lord mayor in accordance with standing order ei i call upon councillor to move amendment l standing in his name. i move my lord mayor is there a seconder? seconded my lord mayor in accordance with standing order a thirteen c this motion will stand referred to the policy and resources committee for consideration report unless the council decide to deal with it at this meeting. what are the council's wishes? do it at this meeting deal this meeting my lord mayor. my lord mayor, under standing order a fifteen b, i move the vote now be put. seconded? those in favour the vote be now put? those against? carried fifty thirty six carried, fifty thirty six. now move to the vote. those in favour of amendment l moved by councillor ? fifty thirty against?they're a bit weary over here carried fifty thirty six that's carried, fifty votes to thirty six and now becomes a substantive motion. those in favour of a substantive motion please show those against those against? fifty fifty thirty six carried, fifty votes to thirty six. lord chancellor's proposal on legal aid. i call upon councillor to move the motion. is there a seconder? mhm? i call upon councillor to move amendment m standing in his name. moved lord mayor is there a seconder? in accordance with standing order a thirteen c, this motion will stand referred to the policy and resources committee for consideration and report unless the council decide to deal with it at this meeting. what are the council's wishes? vote that it be dealt with at this meeting. seconded? those in favour of it being dealt with at this meeting? that's carried. councillor are you nominating councillor ? thank you lord mayor ok twenty seven please my lord mayor steady steady this is a subject which affects many people in this city and is another characteristic act by a tory government that acts in a callous way. on the second of july of this year, the home secretary made a statement to parliament on the subject of asylum. by coincidence this had been followed by an orchestrated campaign in the gutter press stirring up fears about asylum seekers hear hear now, this isn't about asylum seekers because on the back of that, on the back of that statement, without warning, the home secretary announced proposals to change the publicly funded arrangements for advice and representation in asylum and immigration cases. in short, to remove the entitlement for legal aid for this entire area of work. now, as a council and as a group, i believe that we should oppose the removal of the green form scheme. this provided initial low cost independent legal advice. the removal of this will mean that thousands of residents will be unable to obtain the legal assistance in matters like arranging family visits or to look into their own circumstances. there is, in this city, a pool of expertise that is built on local provision, provided by local people, solicitors, law centre and others. it provides a choice of effective and independent advice locally. now, why is this happening? well, on the face of it, we have an obsession with cutting legal aid. the british legal system is already in a bit of a sorry state but this is only part of the story because we are faced with a creaking government bureaucracy that has often been shown by the higher courts to be acting in an illegal and unfair manner. so the government therefore seeks to use its powers to stop people gaining access to the law and getting advice from local sources. in its place they have a very good organisation called the united kingdom immigration advice service and i will quote a fax i have received from them. u k i a s was not consulted about this proposal beforehand and have so far not received any details about it. they are a one hundred percent home office funded organisation. they have not right to take and fund matters to the higher courts to review the decisions of the government, the executive in other words, and they themselves have no idea how they're meant to fulfil this role that the government sees them as having. this is basically a fig leaf. we need a comprehensive and effective system of access to advice for this in legal aid. mister obviously when he didn't consult the u k i a s betrayed the cynicism which characterises most of his behaviour. we're actually talking here about family unit and human rights. we're actually re t talking about reducing the access to justice because if w if these proposals go through, your access to justice will depend on the size of your wallet and it is actually a restriction on liberty. people must be able to get the representation they trust and not that prescribed by the government, whose in administration you may eventually end up challenging. this proposal sets a dangerous anti-democratic precedent. now, if we take a look at council, this authority that we all know and love so dearly. we rightly have to live in an environment of audits, commissions, ombudsman and legal review in the course of our conduct. right. that's quite right and proper and all of us would support that. now just imagine the outcry if council had the power to close down every organisation, stop funding every organisation that criticised it and reviewed its actions. because that is exactly what the government is seeking to do with this legal aid proposal. it's transferring a limited provision of legal aid into a grant to an auth to an organisation which it controls and funds, which is not allowed to do the work that is currently done under the legal aid scheme. it is the characteristic of the kind of governments that have just been turned over beyond the line,in europe. so what i'm hoping that this council will do is send a message up to white hall that this is an abuse of executive power to stifle the challenges of t to the authority. it's maladministration. if extended, this means that talk of a citizens charter is utter nonsense. what kind of citizens charter is introduced on the back of denying you the right to even challenge the people who are providing the services, or could restrict the right of your family to be together, or the right for you to travel to the country where you've been living? it undermines the much tarnished and now fatally flawed british system of justice. how can you defend a system of justice that prevents you getting anywhere near it unless you have a large wallet. so on this side we actually believe in positive rights. no talk of the tittle tattle of erm the citizens charter that gets watered down one day and becomes something else the other day and you might get a free train ticket out of it some time. we're not about cynically smothering access to justice with a cynical morass of restrictions cut and downright cynical regard for the rights of people who're often in a vulnerable position. in opposing this motion the amend that you're about to hear about is actually supporting restrictions on justice. this this council has now committed itself to a equality of opportunity and social justice. it is only natural that when we get back to power this cynical measure from the lord chancellor will be abolished. i look forward to that day. councillor my lord mayor, i must confess to being quite surprised by the incredible naivety and complete lack of understanding that's obviously rampant on the benches opposite with most of the items we've dealt with today. i suggest that in future councillors and concentrate on engaging their brains before they start putting pen to paper hear hear and coming up with a travesty like this that masquerades as a motion to the council. the next time they feel it necessary to spout off in such an ill-informed, ill-advised and half-cocked manner over the issue of immigration, perhaps councillors and should remind themselves that some of the most severe immigration laws were actually introduced by a labour home secretary. where then with their pathetic bleatings of contempt, or don't you go back as far as er. quite simply what the government intend to achieve through the proposed legislation is the introduction of new measures designed to s to halt the systematic abuse of immigration procedures by people who falsely claim asylum in britain. the effect of these new measures will be to allow a substantial acceleration and simplification, which everybody's been calling for, of decision making in asylum and immigration cases. the government's aim is to decide all cases within a matter of months so that all those affected do not have to wait an inordinate length of time to ascertain their legal status in the u k. it's obvious to everyone not too blind to see that such changes are vital to the mounting pressures on the existing system hear hear the number of people seeking asylum in the united kingdom has risen sharply from five thousand a year in 1988 to over thirty thousand in 1990. from january to may this year twenty one thousand applications were received. these figures, if projected forward, indicate fifty thousand applications for asylum could be received during 1991. in may 1991 three thousand eight hundred and four new asylum applications were received. the majority of these, three thousand one hundred and twenty three, were made by applicants already in the u k who presented themselves at united kingdom immigration nationality offices to request asylum. there is clearly refutable evidence to suggest that the great majority, as many as seventy five percent, of all such cases are not genuine. in only twenty five percent of united kingdom cases do applicants have a well-founded fear of persecution. the criteria for seeking refugee status is based on the 1951 united nations convention on refugees. mot applicants wish to remain in the united kingdom for economic reasons and use asylum seeking to circumvent normal immigration procedures. this has resulted in an immense backlog. there are currently fifty thousand undecided cases and the backlog is growing at over three thousand cases a month. the average decision time is already over sixteen months and getting worse. action is needed now, to both tackle the backlog and deter more bogus applications coming in. that action has now been proposed by the home secretary. it includes the employing of up to five hundred extra staff to help speed up the initial determination of claims. it also includes plans to withdraw advice and assistance under legal aid green form scheme in asylum and other immigration cases. necessary legal advice and assistance will be available from the united kingdom immigration advisory service whose grant will be substantially increased. controls at entry ports will be strengthened to improve identification of applicants who arrive from safe countries. carriers bringing passengers from abroad without valid documentation will be charged at double the current rate. improved document checks abroad and better screening procedures for identifying undocumented asylum seekers will be introduced. none of these measures will prevent the entry into the united kingdom of the genuine immigrant or asylum seeker. these are the very people who will most benefit from the proposed changes. the genuine people. they are precisely the ones who will gain from the accelerated handling of clearly unfounded cases. the home secretary has made it absolutely clear that he remains committed to meeting our obligation to genuine refugees. asylum procedures exist to ensure the protection of those genuinely at risk, but they are in danger of being undermined by those who see them as an alternative channel for immigration. the many spoiling it for the few yet again. lord mayor, it is clear that this country cannot sustain the present numbers of applicants seeking asylum. we simply cannot allow immigration control to become optional. nor must we let the institution of asylum be undermined by abuse. thank you lord mayor. lord mayor, under standing orders a fifteen b, i move the vote now be put. seconded my lord mayor. those in favour? seven mhm? eh? is there forty seven? just walking back. yeah, forty eight against? carried, fourteen to thirty two that's carried, forty eight to thirty two. so we move to those in favour of amendment m moved by councillor please show poll tax cos did this at p and r and i will reiterate what the leader said then and i and and quite clearly and soundly, that the labour party, both nationally and locally, and this labour group do not condone a policy of non-payment either as a principle or as a tactic. is that clear? have you got that? thank you. now then, and i think that it's important, well let me let me just deal with the minor diversion that in s those people who choose not to pay, that is a personal choice, and they will take the consequences of their actions. however, what the poll tax has revealed unequivocally is that there are poverty traps in this city entirely due to that particular tax and those people who are in financial difficulty we do understand the problem they have and we will continue to help. now, the evidence is very clear. i'll produce the evidence for you. that's not a worry. now if you really wanted to help, and you were concerned about that. but let me give you two concrete things you could do. number one, you could lobby the government to remove the twenty percent. now that would, in fact, help the poor. it would also ensure that we were much more financially secure. now the the control of the audit commission is on record as stating quite clearly that it is not possible to account the equation. it costs us more to collect it than we actually get in. the second thing we need to do is to lobby for the repeal of the unwinding of the safety net. the further twenty five pounds that will have to go on the poll tax this year will cost this council eight point one million. now, it's illogical for a so-called government that's in power with all the financial expertise to talk about getting shut of it and leave it in to cause misery to people. let me turn quickly to the out turn figures that were in p and r. the capital programme is already on line, although it was grossly underfunded. in terms of the revenue output it's a hundred and forty three thousand below the estimates and it was agreed that any variations would be carried over into next year. i accept that as a reasonable thing to do. the latter is a is a direct result of setting a poll tax which was clearly and blatantly an under provision to provide decent services in this city. there is one other point i'd just like because yo you've been on about labour controlled councils. there's a very interesting table which is now produced by the d of e, not by labour weekly or anybody else, which lays out the amounts of money that are set aside in order for the collection. conservative in , three times that for which we put on for and let me remind you again that out of that seventeen pounds, you put eleven on, not us, you put it on. you put eleven pounds, that's the addition of we we accepted that and we . no problem, i stand i stand as i did before and i accept that that's extra. as regards to the non-payment, we are, fifty four pounds goes on in , forty three pounds goes on in , thirty seven pounds goes on in and , all of them greater than that which we have put on simply in order to recollect the poll tax. so let the tories talk about a collectable tax. they've no idea. now, what else did i want? ah yes, i've said that. that's great. now then now, i wanna just deal finally then. pardon? that's right. in conclusion my lord mayor, i think the controlling group seriously has quite ably demonstrated its ability to manage an economy both effectively and compassionately. that's very very important. and in spite of the major reorganisations in education and planned services arrangements, no jobs have been lost and they're at it again on this amendment lies absolute lies and you cannot stand, you lied in p and r, and you're lying now on a speculative business about people's we will continue, we will continue, you've lied before and you'll lie again, and we will continue to consult widely with the electorate and the trade unions on local economy, on the local economy that brings in financial matters which affect them. we can live we can live and demonstrate that there is an equation where services, quality service, area degeneration and job protection can be achieved within difficult resources. there's a simple message from today's council, if you vote tory, you're voting yourself out of work. so i would say to this council when they were in power they set compulsive competitive tendering that sent thirteen hundred people down the road. now that is evidence, that's the kind of situation you've got while tories are in power. everybody in the council should know that. i move my lord mayor, with great pride that this amendment be supported and final and finally we will to the electorate, as we did last year, and we will win and we'll have more success next year than we had this year. i so move . my lord mayor, after that, what else can i do but to move ? a fifteen b, i move the vote now be put. those in favour of amendment r moved by councillor ? those against? that's carried th that's lost, thirty one to fifty. those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of councillor ? those against? thirty seven that's carried fifty to thirty two that's carried, fifty votes to thirty two. those in favour of the substantive motion please show. those against? that's carried, fifty votes to thirty two. next item is er standards and choice in education. call upon councillor to move the motion. moved lord mayor councillor to move amendment s i move lord mayor call upon councillor to move amendment t to move amendment u standing in his name. seconded? my lord mayor. that that the matter is not urgent and should be dealt with only at the receipt of a vote from education committee, i move a standing order a thirteen e be suspended for this meeting and b the motion and amendment be referred to the education committee for report without being debated at this meeting. i so move lord mayor. councillor cou councillor will you please sit down. councillor will you please sit down sit down it's high time, it's high time the leader of the conservative party le learnt to recognise that the lord mayor was on his feet and should sit down you dis you have behaved disgracefully. we'll move to the m move to vote on the motion as moved by councillor . those in favour? i didn't know we'd any chickens here carried, fifty to thirty two that is carried, fifty votes to thirty two. next item is the city hall pay awards. call upon councillor to move the motion. is there a seconder? seconded my lord mayor call upon councillor to move amendment b standing in his name. is there a seconder? seconded lord mayor in accordance with standing order a thirteen c, this motion will stand referred to the policy and resources committee for consideration and report unless the council decide to deal with it at this meeting. what are the council's wishes? we hear it now my lord mayor seconded? seconded lord mayor all those in favour? my lord mayor, i move that the motion and amendment be referred to the policy and resources committee for that committee to consider the matter and make a decision and that the right of any member of that committee to refer the matter to council be removed under standing order a twenty three. i so move my lord mayor. seconded my lord mayor those in favour? fifty votes to thirty two. next one is the police complaints committee. call upon councillor to move the am motion together with amendment x standing in his name. i move lord mayor seconded? seconded lord mayor call upon councillor to move amendment w standing or s in accordance with standing order a thirteen c this mo in accordance with standing order a thirteen c this motion will stand referred to the policy and resources committee for consideration and report unless the council decide to deal with it at this meeting. what are the council's wishes? all those in favour? my lord mayor, under standing order a fifteen b, i move that the vote now be put. seconded my lord mayor. well now erm what it says here is that you want to sort of talk about possible options for a year out and then relevance of archaeology to career in surveying or land management. that's yeah. basically what you want to talk about is it . okay well what about this year out then. what what do you know sort of what you want to do at all or not not not a great deal i mean i'd like possibly to try and stay in erm the field of archaeology to some mhm. extent erm but obviously i also want to earn some money. cos erm i w i'd like to erm do some sort of further qualification after first degree so erm and now whether that is going on to do ah. something with erm surveying or whatever erm through one of these courses which gives you exemption from their sort of passing their exams or whatever, or yes i see. whether it's to do archaeology heritage graduate which i'm also interested right. in. that right. means i've got earn three and a half thousand pounds f five thousand pounds erm at some point to pay er for that and living expenses. and you hope to do this in one year out do you? you hope to get somewhere towards there anyway . so well i don't hope to get somewhere anyway yes. yes i see erm er well i suppose the question is erm well i mean if the aim is to earn money basically in this year out then d do you have any skills which are in high demand and people will pay for ? well i'm i'm really not sure i mean erm erm er or even any skills which would make you employable at all yeah. is is another you know erm it's erm i've got i mean i've got a job for the first six weeks already set up with have you yeah. the department but working as a supervisor yeah yeah. on one of their sites. oh great. so you know that's about that's okay. seven hundred pounds straight off that i've got . right yeah. so erm i've got a bit of time also in which to apply for a few things and go and see a few people erm yes yes. so yeah. the other option of course is not to do that and to try and gain some experience erm m maybe voluntary for some of the time so that maybe i can then spend you know in another years time get a job which is a bit more relevant and i'll be able to earn some money. i see yes to transfer so the other aim would be to try and get some skills which er would improve your chances of doing whatever yes. it was you wanted to do in yeah. in the end yes. erm well if if we i mean you're you're probably fairly clear about the archaeology area yeah. and you probably know more about that than i do so i won't you know yeah. there are other people who could yeah. tell you more about that. so erm may maybe we should look at the surveying, land management bit yeah. which i must admit i'm not an expert on. but erm my understanding of erm gaining a surveying qualification mhm. is that basically erm you you go and work as a dogsbody and erm graduates are allowed to take the exams within two years and and you'd probably have to go on night school thing or something to get it you know. but basically there aren't any real really or there are very few decent schemes where they actually take graduates yeah. with a view to training them properly. yeah. and more or less you just earn your bread and butter er doing things i mean it might be in the office yeah. doing clerical work or it might be using erm surveying instruments now yeah. i mean are you yes yes can you do all that? i mean that's that's one of the things i want ed to talk about was the relevance of archaeology to that sort of work i mean certainly i've done surveying you know right. fairly elementary surveying but more or less i know how to use well a level and er yeah. a theodolite and that sort right yeah. of thing so i would have thought that it's the sort they're looking for . yes well i'm sure there are that you know there there might be some scope for doing that yeah. erm er it might be sort of rather like archaeology you know er mm. when they've got to do the road or something they want somebody to do it for the three weeks or yeah. three days or whatever it takes yeah. to do it and then they don't really want them any more. yeah. so but but on the other hand if you've got somebody i suppose a firm that was doing that sort of work and they yeah. knew you could do it i i'm just not erm at all sure of er how that actually works. i mean erm presumably i mean obviously the local authority has its own people yeah. who do that. well a a as far as i'm aware anyway from all from reading yeah. the information there appears that there should be private companies i actually haven't looked in the yellow pages yet actually i should do that and you know and yeah no no who do it who do that sort of work yeah. you know maybe i am the sort of person they're looking for who's already done a little bit of surveying erm to to join as a dogsbody and then over the two years or four years however long it does take erm you know slowly presumably you just get given more responsibilities. the the erm the best training for surveying now interestingly we recently had a a thing about this from gosh. i can't remember where it was now but it it was certainly you know probably one of the er new er very new universities you know the ex-polys yes yeah. and they were running a surveying course in conjunction with the er inland revenue which now yeah yeah. yes i oh have you? well that's nearly. er nearly well that's the best thing i've seen for getting sort of properly qualified erm yeah there there are a number of courses which you do mm. erm most of which are only a year which right. give you exemption from partial do they? yeah. yeah. some some of them actually give you exemption from all of them although i think they're right. maybe no only they're more than a year. yeah. erm i have heard that there's a particularly there's a good correspondence course with reading university. well reading does the degrees in estate management yeah. so i mean they'd yeah so know what they were about if yeah. they were running a correspondence erm yeah course. the think is i have to earn money to do those beforehand. you know yes well i suppose it's a question of how much a correspondence course actually costs. yeah. and it should be relatively cheap. because i well that's what i thought mean you know they don't yeah. er i mean it depends i suppose the extent to which there's any tutorial element but i mean erm whether they have you there for a week or something and teach you some of the practical yeah. stuff. but but it's obviously very minimal compared yeah. with with what you get yes i mean i'm wondering if perhaps mm. i mean i may be able to get some money from my parents a little bit mm. erm and with this money that i'm going to earn in the first six weeks and then possibly erm getting a job while i'm doing the correspondence course erm you know even if it's just bar work and especially yeah yeah. if i'm living at home which it would be cheap yeah yeah. erm then maybe i would be able to do to mm. do the correspondence course. i think the thing about correspondence courses is that erm y you have to be very good at disciplining yourself yeah. you know because there's no sort of backup really i mean alright no. you've got your assignment and it has to be done by the end of the week or the end of the fortnight or yeah. whatever it is and you've really got to get it off and then presumably it's marked and yeah. maybe there are some things you haven't covered or yeah. whatever and maybe if it's a good correspondence course they may refer you to the actual you know things you should have er read and so on yeah. erm and then you've got to do that yeah. and get on with the next one yeah. and and it's really almost all up to you. i think erm i i think i could do that. right yeah yeah . i think if especially if i wasn't if it was one of if it was my main yeah so i mean if you were doing bar work but really that wasn't the main job yes yeah yeah yeah . erm yeah if that was the case then i would be able to do that. well well the thing about it i suppose is that erm er then you've got to take the exam haven't you? yeah. erm but i think i think certainly i would have thought a place like reading probably half their people set the exams anyway so yeah. you know they it should be pretty well yes. spot on for yeah. what you what you actually yeah. want you know the the key thing is to discover what how much work a week you know how many hours a week they think it's going to take now that's yeah actually extremely difficult to estimate really yeah. because i mean you know some people are pretty quick yes. and some people are actually rather slow. yeah. and erm but i mean i remember when i i was doing er work with the open university now i was a sort of er tutor with them or counsellor with them and i think we used to say ten to fifteen hours work a week yeah. erm for one of their subjects you know one of their main yeah. er full courses and i think too people tend to say about that level for something like the accountancy right. erm qualification. so that's probably what you're looking at. yeah that's erm that's actually not really . it isn't that much is it really not if you're doing bar well well yeah. it can work quite well with bar work cos bar work's a real pain cos it yeah. splits the day up in such yeah. an awkward way doesn't it. yeah. but if you get in a couple of hours yeah. and you work really hard at it and then you go back and do your yeah. you know it's i mean fifteen hours in in a week is not much at all when you consider how much you're expected to do for a degree right well it may be of course you see on the other hand the accountancy takes three years. now er it it could be it yes but i think you need to check that to to see ah yes it could be that you're expected to do thirty hours a week. yeah yes right yeah what they and they if it's a good course they should actually have some sort of estimate of this yeah. you know. erm and i mean you've obviously got to judge a bit your own capacity yeah. to say well if it's a lot of it's erm maybe there's quite a lot of figure work or something yeah. then if you're not actually frightfully hot at that yes. then maybe that's going to take you a bit longer. so yeah. you know you maybe err on the safe side a bit but as you say even if it's erm well thirty hours would be getting yeah. er quite probably doable but yeah. you don't want much more than that do you? don't want much more than that no. oh as you you know. anyway i think that's worth checking. i think the er the course actually leads to mm. complete exemption from the the exams . does it yes all the exams. yeah. then you've got to get the experience yeah. presumably to qualify. yeah i think i think once you've erm yeah. done that you're then you then are in a position to join a firm mhm mhm . properly still probably as a bit of a dogsbody and then you have a sort of mhm. probationary period where erm i mean it depends what you're looking for i mean there were firms like you know mm. this huge firm in london erm who used to take graduate trainees on yeah. but they were much more interested in people of course with degrees but they did take people who hadn't. yeah. now if you'd passed the exams yeah. they'd er you might it might be worth writing around to see what the or or even ask the people who are running the correspondence course you know what yeah. the chances are or or whether the pattern is that you get a dogsbody job in an ordinary firm of estate agents you know and you're yeah. doing that and that's working your time out so that yeah. then you know i'm not sure either whether of course i mean one would hope that erm the institute would have certain requirements about the erm practical period that you yeah. actually had to have experience of mm. x y and z you know. i think there's very strict erm you know erm yeah so so so you might be able to find out from the institute yes. who was offering this . yes yes. erm and the approach them and try and find out yeah. what the chances were. cos i i think you probably need to check it out a bit yeah. before embarking on you know that. i mean i mean obviously the it may be that erm there's very little these days i'm afraid which is an absolutely copper bottomed guarantee you know but if if if they were able to say well you know yes we do take people who've got the exams you know we took somebody last year or whatever. mm. and and you could get a feel for the fact that they did do it. yeah. erm then you know that would be something whereas if they say well the recession's so bad we haven't taken anybody for the last five years and your researches can't unearth anybody who seems to be prepared to er give you even half a chance then i mean yeah. it's obviously not yeah probably a very good idea . yeah. i mean i think erm. reading and sheffield and whoever are doing the course yeah. they should have things about who they've placed where? well they should erm. the thing is you have to be slightly careful about those because right. erm it may depend on what experience the people had before they did the course. yeah and you can't tell and and if if if you know they had none at all yes. and th you know they came from an arts background fine you know yeah. then they really like you. yeah. erm but you know if if they've got a couple of years in er something and yeah i mean it is the sheffield one mm. it says in the brochure that they're looking ah. for people who are er who have already maybe ex a bit of experience. so they've ah yeah yeah. actually said that so yes yeah so so you've got to be slightly careful but i mean if you already can use theodolites and things then in a sense i mean what do they mean by experience? yeah. erm and er so you know but you've just got to be slightly careful i think of the figures and erm i if if you know it's much better if you can talk to the the mm. admissions tutor or whatever or mm. or concoct a letter which asks some very direct questions yeah. you know erm er which cover the business of previous experience and or somebody how many people do they have with your particular background of a little yeah. er actual practical surveying experience in the context of archaeological digs er and so on you know and can they say what those people have gone on to yeah. erm i mean what what ideally i'd like to do is to go is to get those qualifications and then move into back into the field of of archaeology working with oh i see. someone like english heritage, nation trust people like that who are lo who are you know who work with erm mm. valuers and er you know surveyors that and you know. mm. you know working out the potential of their land and how they can erm use their land and their properties to the best mm. effect so erm whether that means actually working directly for them or working for a company who specializes in erm the management of historic erm buildings or environments or areas . yes i th i think you've yes. yes it's tricky isn't it i'm afraid we don't know who these companies are. yeah. now that's what you really need to find out isn't it yeah. and then to find out what sort of people they've got working for them and what qualifications. yeah. i mean architects use these sort of people don't they yes yes yes. because i remember erm talking to to to one and there are a number in york who yes. do this sort of work. well i would imagine so and i th i think if i talk to jane yes she might have some ideas . she would be the person who would know about mm. it or martin maybe. erm you know mm. yes yes. and possibly even go down to the trust and talk to them. oh that's a good idea cos i gather the department and the trust don't quite no. so they might know some different people . be better for doing yes exactly. yes yeah yeah mm yeah yeah. i think perhaps there are a few more places where i can get some information but i think the architects cos i was i was engaged in trying to find a sort of temporary work for er somebody in archaeology and and erm i remember i got to s to an architect and and he did quite a lot of that sort of work you know and they yeah. would know who do which architects do that sort of work. and i think he was keen on whether the person could do erm sort of surveying of a of a building and actually you know do the drawings yeah. for it. so that yeah. i mean if you could do that yeah well certainly the you then know that we've that's part of our training. well they they're very interested in that because yeah. you know they will have to do that sort of thing as part of a a job and they don't really want to spend time doing it. erm well it's cheaper if they can employ yeah. somebody yeah. i mean i know also one architects firm in gloucester where i live. oh yes. so that deals with that because when i was originally going to do my er dissertation i was going to look oh yes. at farm buildings and jane said get in touch with oh i see. this this arch this this architect because this bloke is particularly interested in it and he deals with historic buildings and things like that. so erm mhm. you know i can always go back there as well. well maybe you could have a go back there too . yes i mean it's obviously better to work in both places mm. yes cos you need all the contacts you can exactly yes . yeah mm mm yes. so i think maybe sort of first priority is find out a bit more information then about erm who employs these sorts people. i think that's right i'm sure the architects do those and and there are sort of architects' practices who are particularly interested in yeah. doing sort of historic buildings and so on. erm and and that of course is the sort of area that you want to get into really isn't it . exactly yes yeah. erm so they that might be quite a good area . yeah i hadn't actually thought of architects so that's mm. and of course there is the institute of advanced architectural studies in the university yes yes i mean i don't know whether they and they run this conservation course you yeah. see so i mean they should know they should know who these yeah yeah . who these architects are . er if you can get in to their see their secretary or somebody er i expect i see. she might be able to yeah. you know or or if any of your erm archaeology know anybody in there or something. i'm sure jane will yes. know. well she may know who are the architects are anyway. she i'm sure she will working with mm. r c h mm. i think i think that's a a useful sort of line. yeah. erm and also to find out more a bit more about the correspondence course yes exactly you know what it is and i mean clearly i i don't think at the moment i'm in a position to to apply for a a taught course because i don't have the money. right. so that's out unless erm you know oh oh that's i was going to say do you do you know about career development loans? no. well i mean either borrowing the money i'm afraid yeah yes. but i mean you know they're what what well there there is a sort file out there on them somewhere. erm and basically what it is is it's a government sponsored this er which erm well the rules may have changed cos they're always changing the rules of these things. erm er i think they're probably and and they're putting more effort into getting the unemployed off being unemployed off being unemployed into course aren't they so probably the they may have improved things but anyway the basic erm idea of it was that you borrow money er you borrow erm money to finance a course which is going to get you a job. yeah. now you could claim that this work is it's obviously vocational isn't it. yeah. erm er and if you had done some researches into the job opportunities and you you could decide that then that that would be good. erm and the limit was five thousand pounds for one year but i think they only pay half the fees or something of whatever course it is. and it only courses one year's duration maximum one year . right yeah well most of these are one year anyway so well that's fine then erm and what what what happens is that you do it through a bank but there are banks which i think barclays and the cooperative bank and maybe one or two others do it. and erm the the the erm scheme is that the government pays the interest while you're on the course right yes. and then you have to start paying it back and paying the interest you know. yeah. so the idea is that you obviously need to get a job pretty quick yeah erm i mean obviously yo yeah i mean i'd i'd like to avoid really going into debt like that if you could but but you might use it to top up yeah. you see if you can get a certain amount of money yes i mean take out two thousand or something take out a small one thousand pounds short yeah. erm it might make a lot of difference to your sort of er yes yeah. ability to survive the year in without serious discomfort you know to have another yeah. thousand quid or something. erm and then of course there would be a i don't know what the rates of interest are or the payback period but the erm of course the longer the payback period the more it costs you in the end so . yes but erm i i imagine their rate of interest would be kept fairly low. yeah well i anyway i shall mm. definitely look into that cos it could you know it it'd be a bit annoying if i was five hundred pounds a thousand pounds short at the end of the day yeah sure sure you could just do it. and of course i suppose the advantage of that is too that erm if you needed the money to pay the course fees to get on the mm. course well if you get it from them you just get the money and then yeah. you could er er yeah. actually sort of shell it out erm . yeah. just i mean out of interest the reason why i didn't take sheffield oh yes. one was because they er wanted you for four years for definite after that working in evaluation so basically you're committing yourself for five years oh did they oh i see yeah. including the course time of course. yeah. you felt that was a bit long. so that's why i didn't take it. well it wasn't working in the field that i want to work in. no no no . and i thought you know and i think basically it'd be er sort of assessing the value of buildings for council tax and things like that which is yeah oh it is yes entirely so i'm sure that's what it is basically. because it's actually part of the inland revenue so i mean that's what they're about yes so they they say you know there's all sorts of things you do farms and you get into the country and you do land as well but i reckon ninety eight percent of of their people are doing houses so well i suppose you see maybe what they're trying to do i mean as far as i know i mean previously the inland revenue or the valuation office part of the inland revenue they actually used to run a scheme where right. worked for them and you qualified while you were working for them. yeah. and as far as i know that that was the erm most erm sort of financially effective mm. way of actually getting qualified because yeah. they really did have a proper scheme and you were paid a sort of reasonable wage yeah. and you were sort of given the time and and and er er you know i'm sure they paid for the books or whatever you needed yeah. and and they paid the fees and so on whereas er anywhere else you just work for a firm of estate agents and they pay whether they pay you and the qualifications up to you you go off and do it and you know you don't really i mean i think i don't know maybe working for a char firm of chartered surveyors you have i mean it's the same system isn't working as a dogsbody and then maybe yeah. finally working up and yeah and and you have to do it over four years i think if you do it that way oh do you? if i think you i mean you can go into it if you've erm i mean the minimum qualification they say is only g c s es yeah yeah. obviously it takes a lot longer to do. right. erm so perhaps with a degree it would only take maybe three years well i think i think er from memory they the the there is a dispensation in the professional erm yeah. you know qualifications which says that graduates can take it in two years. right. can sit the exams in two years if you're working with a chartered surveyors company i think that's probably true yeah. i don i don you know erm and so there is a it is reduced. yeah. and maybe the correspondence slots into that . yeah yeah. erm and saying maybe you know i should look up see if i can find some. well that's another you know route really al although i think your architects yes i think that's if you could work with yes. an architect who was using you er to to to survey and draw that would be ideal. historical buildings and you just worked with him and you took the exams on the side as it were. yeah. erm yeah. and he probably wouldn't mind that you were only going to be there for a year or two you know he's getting yeah. a good deal out of it so. so i mean there might even be you know might even you might even might stay on. his he might be able to get other people from where i've you know from the department here who are also interested in that. i'm sure there mm. will be people who would yeah. you know jump at the opportunity to get mhm. to do that so yeah yeah well yes. right. right. mm. i shall erm well does that is that about yes about it fine okay i mean that's yeah that's given you a bit more yeah. food for yes. thought and so on. yes and and a sort of a bit of a way forward. well you sound pretty organized compared to some of them. erm and you do have a definite sort of track to look at. yeah i mean a few months ago i had absolutely no idea at all what yeah. i was going to do so yeah yeah. erm i was slowly sort of pulling a few ideas out of thin air. and yeah yeah well it sounds sounds as though it's possible you know you may have to i mean in the end you might have to sort of compromise it and actually do this valuation thing. yeah. you know if that was only way to get qualified . yeah. i mean i think i've already resigned myself to the fact that i'm going to have to do one maybe two years more before i get anything like right. into the field that i want to be in you know i don't think it's possible to just walk straight in unless you're very lucky . it's no no it's erm yeah the other thing you might keep an eye on is erm try to develop computing skills. yeah. you know as you go along i mean yeah. if there's any or or doing that in addition to something you know erm yes i mean we do do you do some. some and i have done a little bit on autocad which is erm making maps and things oh right. and you do bui plans of buildings on it and that sort of thing as well. erm so i may sort of look into it a bit more maybe get a bit more experience yes. and it's erm i suppose of course in fact the that sort of computing is is is fairly erm specialized isn't it mm. really in a way. but i think even if you're familiar with computers generally and have good keyboard skills that's and also knowing what's available and you know how things work well that's yeah like or something yeah. where you take a picture of a building and you right. can see which right. er parts are old and things like that and yeah. all sorts of things which are available which if i just brushed up on so at least if i went to an interview i'd be able to talk about and you could talk about it yes i i think that's it. you've got to be able to put on a bit of an act yeah yeah. at the interview. if they subsequently discover that actually your knowledge is pretty sketchy but at least you've got some well yeah. you probably at least know enough to go off and get started yeah yeah. and then sort it out you know. mm great . okay well good luck with it anyway . oh oh right i'd better turn this thing off now erm right. can you tell me when and where you were born mr ? yes number seven road,,. and erm were your parents from ? yes, both of them. so they've lived here well not locally,, more. my mother was born in and my father was born in abbey, in the grounds of abbey, in the stables. he was his father,his my grandfather, was a groom, and er they lived in the erm in the abbey grounds, in the courtyard of the stables. there were some cottages there. in fact he was, my father was christened in the abbey. which is rather unusual . and what what was your what was your father's occupation? my father at first, i think in his very early days, er was a sort of a farm hand. and then he became erm he worked at the at the colliery as a er an ostler, a horseman you see. oh a horseman. and erm looked after all the ponies. and as i recall as a child there were well over a hundred ponies down pit at that time, because during the nineteen twenty one strike they brought them all up to the surface and put them in the fields and i used to go with my father to sort of look after them. oh and then, this was this was in the twenty one strike and the twenty six strike. they brought them up both times, onto the surface. so you used to go with your father then that's right into the fields, they they had er the colliery had a er farm adjacent to the er to the the colliery. farm it was called, it was rather a big farm as well and these ponies were put into the green fields that sort of on the farm. but this was just during the strike? that's right, oh yes they were never brought up otherwise, never saw daylight otherwise. and er what did your mother do? well my mother was just a housewife as i recall. erm well as a housewife erm hm we we were poor people. the house that we lived in was a two up and a two down sort of thing you know, and er i know my mother used to take in washing, go out black leading. what well black leading was a sort of erm going out cleaning the old fireplaces, for people that were slightly better off than we were, their husbands might have been a tram driver or a railway driver. they had a little bit higher standard of living. i see. and they could afford to pay the shilling or one and sixpence to have their fireplaces done. and my mother used to have to go out to supplement our income you see. because because er in those days well we were poor, we were poor. no arguing about it. erm and when i say we were poor there were people even poorer than we were, much poorer. erm my father was a er a gardener, sort of as a erm hobby and he had allotments and erm we lived very well foodwise you know on what he really produced. this was in the early days of when we was in road, we did move from there eventually. i'll tell you about that later. yes. erm so you he grew his own vegetables . vegetables that's right yes. and he used to erm things you don't see in allotments today, he used to build the clamps for the pits for storing winter potatoes and turnips and that sort of thing in the garden. what were they? well well they used to make a pile of these things and put straw on top of them and then soil on top of them to keep the frost out. oh i see. and ev every time you want any potatoes you go and open the clamp or the pit or whatever it was called and take some out and seal it up again and that's how we used to store them. and they would keep for all the time . oh yes, a ll through , all through, all through the winter. the straw and they used to have a like a little erm out at the top of the straw to let the heat out. it was it was a work of art to make one you know, it wasn't easy. and where was the allotment ? erm erm, road. near the boneyard, there was an old boneyard, it's the road that runs through from church, there were no houses there then, it's all built on now, and there was a sl like a lane used to come from church to forrest. i believe today it's called road. i'm not sure about that. but it was a little lane and there were all these allotments that were on this erm this little lane, and i'm not sure i think my father had two. of these allotments, er i don't know how many square yards each one would be, but that was his sort of spare time sort of work, occupation. and and what sort of, when did he have ti , when did he go to the allotment, can you remember ? well i, this this is something that's always staggered me because he worked seven days a week, down the mine feeding horses you see, had to be fed, and watered seven days a week. and erm he he worked shifts, er the morning shift or the day shift as it was called, which was from erm, i don't know as far as i could tell it was from six till two or something like that. and the afternoon shift was two till ten. and the erm night shift was till ten till six or ten till seven whatever it might be. but he used to fit in between. that in my view is er what i call a being a glutton for work. but er as i say there were people really worse off than we were but we weren't all that well off and my mother as i say took in washing and did black leading and all that sort of thing for very small remuneration. erm how many other er other children there was just one sister , just one sister. i have one, she's still alive as well. i have one sister and erm is she younger or older ? younger than me, yes, just slightly younger than me, two or three years, i don't know exactly but i should say she's two or three years younger than me. well i know she is. but erm eventually we moved from there and my father er we moved into a company house in village. when i say a company house i mean a house that was owned by the colliery, newly built with a bathroom. oh and when, how old were you when you moved in there ? erm as near as i can tell you, i could be about er er fourteen. about fourteen. yes. i'd say i'd be about fourt i should be about fourteen. just as i was sort of starting work. yes. can i take you back yes dear. to to before then in yeah in the other house as a child mhm erm what do you rem you know you mentioned the boneyard what yes else do you remember about ooh the area, can you describe what the area itself? yes what erm well the house itself as i say was two up and two down, it was gas lit. there was no electricity in the house and i can very well remember the gas lighting. there wasn't even a mantle, it as a wall bracket that came out of the wall with a little tiny gas jet that fanned out sot of thing and that was your illumination for the the bedroom. the er the two rooms downstairs and a like a scullery affair at the back erm they were lit by a central gas with a mantle, gas mantle you know. which you used to light with a taper or something like that and they had little chains on to adjust your light. oh which can light to dimmer and that's right, yes, yes, yes. well it was always dim, always dim, even the bright light was dim, you know what i mean, there was there was very little illumination really when you consider what we have today. erm the scullery now that was just cold water, out of an earthenware, er all the sinks in those days were brown. they were all, there were no white sinks as such they were all brown. and then there was a there was a coal fired copper int he corner, and er this was for washing, for boiling your clothes. oh, can you describe that, yes, erm now monday morning was invariably washday. and er your parents or your mother or your father would get up very early that morning to light the copper, so that the water would be hot to start boiling, it would probably take, it could take a couple of hours to sort of re really heat a copper full of hot water. and erm the clothes would be put in there and er they would be boiled. so it was like a large tub ? you can imagine all the steam. that's right it was like a huge i say huge i don't know how many gallons it would hold, it was a fair copper. and er the fire was underneath this you see in a little grate and you used to open the door and stoke it up and er more often than not it was fired by slack, which was a residue of the coal out of the coal house, you know when you broke your coal up with the lumps the the little sl bits of slack they were all put on one side for the copper fire. and er when that was done the washing the mangle was always in the yard, in the backyard, the old mangle with the wooden rollers and it was quite an effort to turn and we children very often ha to give a turn. was erm always kept in the yard, there was no room for it in a small scullery, and there were big old wooden rollers. and as i say you used to have to erm children used to hav well the elder children had to give a turn with the mangling. your mother fed the clothes into the rollers and you had to turn the old mangle. and this used to squeeze out the that's right, that that was that was water you see. erm used to have a also have a wooden tub and a ponch what was a ponch well a ponch er it's sort of made of wood, and got a got a handle crosswise which you held in one half of it in each hand, it had a stem, and on the on the ponch itself was a sort of er piece of wood that had been er cut out to have about four, i think it was four, legs on this, you see and you used to stand over the ponch and oh and ponch it you see. and so and and s like scrub well scrub well it was it was that's right it was getting the dirt out of the clothes you see. and then of course there was a erm also the scrubbing board, which was a corrugated board which you used to rub the clothes on like that. that was wash day. erm and these were kept a in the yard, you had that's right, all those were in the yard, that's right, yes. along with the bastion, the bastion u hung on the on the on the toilet wall, nine times out of ten. it was a big galvanized er sort of affair you know. that you hung onto this wall and that was brought in once a week for bathing in front of the fire. on the so that would, in the in the lounge would this be? lounge, we didn't call it lounge then dear. it was the back room. lounge wasn't wasn't a word that was heard. it was drawing room for people that had them. oh i see. very seldom you heard the word lounge. oh no it was a that would be a misnomer if ever there was one, because there was room for a table and four chairs and perhaps a settee and that was it. i mean a room half this size and this is not a big room. oh no they were quite small and then there was the parlour. and that was invariably reserved for sort of erm weddings, births, and funerals, and perhaps on a at christmas you'd go in there. otherwise it would never be used. oddly enough you had a room there, a nice room the front of the house, er lots of people who were fortunate had an old piano on there and they'd have the usual weekend singsongs where you very solemn music for front parlour. er i mean this would be considered to be a front parlour and you live in the the back room. and it's the same size as the back room ? yes that's right, it might have even been a little bit bigger than the back room, but very seldom used. and they very seldom had a fire in it at all. and as a child did you know that that you you didn't use this room to ? oh yes yes, never used it, we never used it. yeah you say you you you could go probably weeks and never go into it. there's a door like that to come into to have a little er there wasn't a passage because the front door was straight onto the street in this room. the parlour door went straight onto the street, because it was a terrace you see and you go into the into the front room here and you have another door into the next room and another door into the scullery at the back. and then there was a yard and then there was a garden. and and what sort of size, you had the garden oh yes only a small garden there was small terraced gardens, you couldn't er utilise them to any great degree for for growing or anything like that. flower gardens they used to use them for, some people would probably grow small things like lettuce and salads and things of that nature. but erm all the houses were the same. all the houses were the same, sort of erm, one two three four, there was perhaps four or five to a block. and then there was four or five again, and four or five again, over the street like that. but it was erm it was a happy time for in many respects you know. and although as i say people were very poor they seem to be very happy some of them. erm i remember all of them, i know all their names, i can remember all the names of these different people. and er one old lady, that only recently died about three years ago, at about ninety seven, and she was there when i was a child. er she'd just recently died an old lady named mrs , lived at the first house. used to get a sort of entry you know round the top and there was these four or five, i think five, four or five, cottages. little houses that er were there. and quite big families were brought up in some of these houses with only two bedrooms. it's amazing really, i don't know how they used to and there were only two of us. we had to share a room. but when you've got four or five or six children in a house you know with two bedrooms. however you said there were quite a few families with twelve ooh yes , yes, yes. i had erm two of my mother's no my mother's they were both brothers, my mother's brothers, had eleven children each. and they lived in in smaller houses than we'd got. however and the they survived i don't know. erm my mother, we were a little bit better off than they were and er i remember going to a child with my mother, to see what would be my aunt you see and uncle, and the only time i ever remember seeing my aunt with eleven children was sitting at the corner of a table with a sort of a coarse apron on and just sitting there and i never saw her doing anything. i supposed she was too fatigued to even yes. walk about. and and were the children all in the house. yeah, well they'd be in and out the yard and everywhere i'd, wherever they used to be i don't know. but they always used to say there was two football there was a, two football teams between the two families. that's how they used to count them up. yes. yes and some of them are still alive today. yes. and they lived in er in street, which are all gone now. wh how far, was that quite near ? that's no no it was quite near. in fact it was a s , that was the erm street that the school where i attended, there was a school in this erm, in street. it was called the street school. later it was called the school. that's where i had my educa education. and how was and that was next door to the tannery. can you believe in building a school or a tannery next door to a, which ever came first i don't know, but the there's the school was there, the tannery was there. and don't know if you've ever ever smelt a tannery in full production, have you? no. well it's horrible. to say the least it's horrible, and yet there we were a school and a tannery side by side. and how far away from your home was this ? erm oh i should be a good mile, a good mile, and that's that's another little story there. that you never hear or see today. we used to have to pass on the way to school we used to pa pass a bakehouse, bakehouse, in road. and erm my mother used to bake, and we used to take the clothes basket with the tins of dough ready prepared by your mother and we used to take them to the bakehouse at lunchtime, when we were coming back from our from our meal, the midday meal from home, leave them at the bakehouse and so the baker had finished his morning's baking with his oven of his own bread you see. and he used to put them into the oven while it was still hot to bake for him used to pick them up on our way home from school. oh was this quite a usual thing for ooh usual that were yes, oh lots of people did that. you you you paid your mother paid you paid a small fee you see or a small charge to have this and the your mother used to put the the dough in the tin and er a little s bit of paper with the name on it, you see with a name on it and that used to go in to the oven. and then we'd pick it up on our way home from school. and how often was this perhaps once a week, twice a week , twice a week sometimes. how many loaves would ? and i oh i i can't remember any anyway we used to take the clothes basket. children used to take the clothes basket. whe and you know, put into the clothes basket and then pick it up on our way home from school. on our way home from school we should be nibbling all the crust,the nice crosspieces to eat. yes, it's er i i think, i'm not sure if the bakehouse is still there but erm it was a man named . i remember him very well. and in the winter time we used to love to linger in the bakehouse coming home cos it was so warm. so warm you see. what er can you remember any other shops in that area? oh yes i can. the butcher, on the corner of street, the little tiny grocers where you used to go and fe your mother used to go and fetch her groceries, and if she spent three shillings in the shop she was a good customer. erm there was also a fish and chip shop er that was as well on the corner, that was there years and years and years. erm and then there was a miss kept another little tiny grocer shop there. oh i know all the shops. but the butchers shop was er a very well known shop, and er i remember very well we used to go into there er of course when things were re were really poor, you'd go into the butchers shop in the middle of the week perhaps about thursday and erm they used to sell they used to cook their own meats then of course you know, pressed beef and all that sort of thing and i remember this beautiful big white erm well it'd be a ceramic dish affair on a stand, used to have a big piece of this pressed beef in it, cutting it off, and all the little bits used to fall round the side, well them come thursday when only got a shilling in your pocket or your parents had got a couple of shillings left, you got to fetch two pennyworth of the bits of the pressed beef that had fallen round the pan, and that was a meal. how would your mother serve that up, with with ? well i don't know,i don't know how she'd i suppose we should have it on bread and butter or something like that you see or with bread. i mean and lets face it you came home from school er i think we used to come home about half past four from school summertime and the first thing you come into the house and you get a great big thick slice of home made bread and jam which your mother had also made,also made. and that was put into your hand and you were sent out to play. we were playing marbles at you know and at and at this time of year, or whip and top and that sort of thing. and then you'd come back later and have a a sort of tea, but it would still be bread and jam, you know what i mean. er as you got older of course you got different meals, but as youngsters we ate a terrific amount of bread and jam. what sort of jam? well there was all sorts, whatever was on the go, there was raspberry jam that my mo we used to later years my father grew raspberries and that sort of thing, blackcurrant jam, my mother made all sorts of things like that. she was a good provider, my my mother was. and erm in her particular way she was quite a good cook too. they had to be, they had to be. they had to make things . yes. and going back to the taking of the bread to the erm er bakehouse erm if there was a fire going they didn't do that, because they were baked in the oven, but in the summertime we did it more often than in the winter, because if there was no fire you see, there was no gas cooker or anything like that, all the cooking was done on the coal fire and the oven at the side of it. and the hot water system was a little boiler at the side of the fire as well and you used to have a ladle and take it out of the out of the er out of the boiler on the side. that's another thing you see that that that today you had a a tin ladle and it ever the ladle sort of leaked or developed a hole in ti you didn't discard it and throw it away, you used to go and buy what was called a , which was two little tin washers with a little bit of, i can't remember if it was f a fabric or or rubber, two pieces and you put one on one side and one the other and then a little screw and bolt went through, nut and bolt went through it and tightened it up and that stopped your leak, and that ladle then lasted a lot more a lot longer time. and they sold now today it would have been thrown away wouldn't it. they sold these kits shelf oh yes,i can see them on now, cards, they used to sell them on cards. you you know like erm they were they were fixed onto a card with something like elastic or something like that. and they cost cost a penny of three ha'pence one of these , they were called . and and it was like a tin ladle which i can remember ever so well the tin ladle. you didn't you didn't have a kettle then it was oh you had a kettle, oh you had a kettle as well, yes you had a kettle, which you used to maybe boil on the fire. er if you were er some people had a gas ring, you know, not a cooker, a gas ring those sort of ring that you can boil a kettle on, or you could have a saucepan. i can remember very well having the first cooker we had, gas cooker we had. that was an innovation. was that in in in this house in that was in yes, that was in we had a gas cooker put in there. and er i can er no electricity hadn't been put in that house because the one we moved into at , that had got electricity in it then. er but no gas. cooker was all electric,th they'd got no gas mains up into the into the old village in those days you see. so we were all electric there but erm this house at it was erm it was a great time really that we we i mean the kids were happy together. they played i mean all sorts of games that we played they don't play today. yes, what can you tell me about some of those ? oh course i can erm there was a game that we called er tin lurky you probably won't well you never hear that expression now and er we used to get this old t any tin can and er you somebody would kick it you see and er the one that was sort of one used to have to fur and fetch this tin an bring it back again and then was should all hide, sounds a daft silly game, i know, but this one had to find us and the first one he found it was his turn next to fetch the tin and then find us again. you played that for hours. where where would you play this? well that we had a favourite place for that, that was at the corner of road and road by the chapel, the chapel, and because it was on a hill, slope on to. there were no houses, it was all fields beyond there. and erm we used to kick this tin down the hill and er as i say it would roll down and we would all go and hide anywhere,back garden, front garden, over a wall, round a corner, anywhere like that you see. as i say the first one that was found had to, it was his turn to be on next. and then there was another game we used to play was called peggy. and er the er we used to have a piece of wood, a small piece of wood that was shaped er like a sort of almost like torpedo at both ends. and you used to er stand this on a house brick, like it might be on there, and you had another long stick and you use to hit it on one end and as it flew in the air you see it used to fly up then you used to have to hit it as far as you oh i see. could. again you used to drop it and whoever was what we called on had to fetch this peg back again, put it onto there, and then come and find us again. that was a sort of similar game to the tin lurky and and you used to, where did you get these? we used to make them ourselves. oh yes you used to make we used to make them ourselves. if you held a, got hold of a, an old sort of pickaxe shaft, that was the ideal thing for the the stick to hit the peg with you see. fly in the air and hit it and away it goes, if you missed it you you missed your turn. erm another one we used to erm do of course that was a bit more adventuresome as we got older, what was called er spirit tapping. er you won't know anything about this. what happened you used to have a pin and a button and a a reel of cotton. can you see what's coming? no. didn't think you could, anyway you tie a piece of cotton onto the pin with a button on the end of it. and you'd stick that into the casement window of a house. okay, put it into it and you'd tie your length of cotton or black thread onto the piece of cotton with a button that's dangling down and you'd go across the road into somebody's front garden behind a wall or behind a hedge and just keep pulling the cotton to tap on the window. this is true you know. and out would come the people to the door, course they couldn't see anything or anybody, back they'd go and then you'd do it again. this was t i mean when you think about it er it was good fun and er eventually people realized what was happening and of course they knew what was happening but that went on for a long long time. they called that spirit tapping. if there was some old people here now they'd they'd confirm all that i'm telling you now. did you get up to any other mischievous oh yes, lots of them, lots of them. there was another one that i consider today was very highly dangerous. we we used to get erm at the chapel meetings we used to get erm paper, newspaper and put up a s guttering, a spout you know, a drainpipe, and put a match to it. and it used to roar, you can imagine what the noise was like in the chapel. this is true. and they say they're all bad lads today don't they? but this used to happen, this used to happen. aye, we've done all sorts of things, there was er i used to go to chapel as well i i we were we were compelled to go to chapel. three times a day, well twice a day as we were young, as we get older it was three times, it means we have to go to evening chapel as well. this was er your parents that's right, we used to go to road methodist and erm we got up to all sorts of capers there you know. and er but we were we were we were good boys at heart. we never hurt anyone, i think it was just sheer devilment more than anything else you know. we used to torment the poor old superintendent unmercifully at the er sunday school. all sorts of ways. but er i could er i i could go on for a long time on that subject but time's short dear , this is time's very very short you know. the anniversaries, they used to be every easter time, an anniversary, for which the boys invariably got a new little suit, and the girls had a new frock. that was your annual affair and the er the er the chapel itself was at the end of it used to put up a tiered platform if you can imagine it you know at the end of the little chapel and the erm the younger children was on the bottom and as you got older you graduated to the top and er i don't know why it was though but er i always had to say the collection piece. what was that, can you describe it ? yes well at the end of the the the er service or anniversary, whatever, i don't know if it was called a service or not. erm there was an appeal, for the for the collection plate that was going round. and we the used to pick on a on some sort of a nice looking little boy or little girl to say the collection piece that was appealing and i can't remember what it was now but er probably about four verses of what they called a collection piece, just before they started to collect you see and erm i think i said that three or four years erm running almost, so i must been pretty well good at it. but erm it was enjoyable. erm the er choir master there was a er mr , and he was a wonderful man. he was what we called a school board man as well he was, that was his official capacity, and in those days if you weren't at school they used to erm send a man round to see where you were, you know and why weren't you at school? and they called in the school board man because lots of schools in those days were run by boards or erm governors i suppose they'd call them today. and er he was the choir master erm and he and he used to put us onto, we used to have various plays you know, erm maybe two a year or something like that. this was through the sunday school? that's right, through the sunday school yes. and erm i remember re re one play very very well. and in fact i've got a photograph of all the somewhere about the house. and erm one of the girls that was on there became a very very famous soprano in the country, erm connie shackelock you've probably not heard of her, she's sort of a bit before your time but er she always used to sing land of hope and glory on the last night of the proms a few years ago. and erm that was the spirit that was in those days you see erm, they said i've got nothing to do. we'd go to choir practice perhaps one night a week, er band of hope another one. now you're going to say, what's band of hope aren't you? that was a sort of temperance league, you know erm where they used to erm er sort of er tell you about all the evils of strong drink. and it was like the old, similar to the old templars that were. erm it was called the band of hope. and signature tune if that's what you like to call it was dare to be a daniel, dare to pass a public house and dare to make it known. i can't tell you any more than that but that was the, they had this tune that went with it. and these ladies used to tell us all about his and try and bring us up into a clean way of life, which wasn't bad, wasn't bad at all. did it, what did you think about, did you mind going to sunday school? well i didn't mind till i got a bit older, then i sort of started to kick, and er as i got older, that's another story. but erm er we used to have to go sunday morning. and in the afternoon to sunday school. as i say we got older we used to go on sun at sunday evenings as well. but when i look back when i think about it it probably ke kept us out of mischief you know. cos what would we have done if we hadn't had done that? there was no such thing as radio television. and of course all your other friends of the same same, yes yes. the chapels used to be full, the chapels used to be full. and if we weren't, if we hadn't hav been, i mean that's probably one of the problems of today i don't know. you see there's too much spare time on their hands. we didn't seem to have any spare time. there was different th different things that we used to used to do, i mean erm that was sunday taken care of. it was a sort of a, as you grew older mind you, it was i i i it could have been a little bit of a miserable sort of day. because erm even when radio came er there was only sort of chamber music on the radio you know. and i think the stations used to close down at night, like on sunday evening. and er we thought the heavens opened when la radio luxembourg came on at er er sunday even all day sunday, when we could tune to the sort of dance music and the singing and all that sort of thing. but on b b c which was the only station operating at that er time erm er sunday was a a drab day. if you weren't a church guy. but we used to en i used to enjoy going to it, as i say until i got older and i wanted to sort of stretch my wings a little bit and and i did other things. but as a child it er to me i thou i think it was er very good. it's a pity really that er it hasn't been kept up. i think for them today. how's the, and what sort of time would you spend, how long would you spend at sunday school? well well you'd go to er er i should say in the morning service, that was a service you used to have. did you go with friends then? you'd go at eleven o'clock. my parents used to go occasionally, not all the time, er eleven o'clock probably till twelve. and in the afternoon i think er it was about a quarter to three till four, and that was er sunday school. and we were taught sort of er religious knowledge and all this sort of thing you know. and in the evening, that was a service again probably from six till seven. but you see er you know you'd got to do that so in between those times you couldn't do much else could you? apart from getting ready to to go and then coming home again you see and your meals and that sort of thing. it was sunday pretty well taken care of. but erm during the week time, in the week you you you you used to enjoy yourself in many ways. i remember saturday, as a boy i er i used to run errands for people for pennies, like many more did. you used to do what with that? run errands, run run errands? errands for pennies, yes. that would be what, what would the errands be? what can you oh going to grocer the grocers and and even fetching a quarter of tea for for an old lady you see. er you did a lot of it voluntary but the the better off person perhaps would give you a penny. no more, and i don't mean a new one i mean the old one you know. and erm you were very, or even a ha'penny for that matter, and you was glad of a ha'penny. and when you think of what you could but a penny bar of chocolate and and get a decent size bar of chocolate for a penny. you could buy a ha'p ha'pennyworth of sweets. so you used to spend your money on on sweets? think that right, anything like that you see, yes yes. and erm i used to help a ma and there's another funny one. there used to be a man used to come with a horse and dray selling greengroceries and his name was , t . his shop was on the top end of road, when it was road. and he used to come to with his black horse and dray and i used to go to help him on a er on a saturday morning, used to get to about perhaps nine or half past and i'd go the rounds with him and all i used to do was to er take the peoples things that they'd bought up the entry you see because they were all entries then. and erm when i'd finished with him i'd perhaps get a two or three specked apples or a banana or something like you see. but the highlight of it was that i used to get a ride on the dray and i used he he we used to finish up the round at the bottom of erm road, and street. and then i used to get on to the dray and sit beside him on the box and then we'd go as far as road, which is quite a stretch and i used o walk back. but i had the pleasure of riding on that dray all that way. that was a a a boy of course, little boy, i wouldn't be probably eight or nine years old. used to enjoy it. that used to take card of many saturday mornings. another thing we used to do regularly as well we boys er there was a erm a yeast merchant in erm er road, well i say merchant it ti it was his house, and he had a garage at the side of it and he used to sell yeast. and the yeast used to come to the erm station at er in wicker baskets,in sacks, little tiny sacks used to be, little hessian bags sort of thing, pressed into it har , you know what yeast is, you've seen yeast haven't you? and er we used to make about six trips with a two wheeled trolley from station to his house, two boys'd do this job because it was very heavy work you know. and we'd perhaps make about six trips, and i think we used to get sixpence each for that. not every saturday morning but we used to do this job. he used to call on two of two boys, but there was a boy named , i remember him very well, and i used to do it regularly for this sixpence. and er it could take all all saturday morning to do it you know. er but we enjoyed it again it was sixpence and it was a morning you'd been doing something and that was it. how did you er. find out about these little jobs? oh you were, you were asked, somebody, i don't know how it came about but erm if you found there was something going you went to do it. i remember another thing i used to do, erm estate before that was built erm there were all f open fields. it was like a sort of common land. and it was called the daisy field. and road wasn't built on, that was a an a path, like a rough cart road and er saturday afternoons in the summertime there was a coal merchant had two horses, a man named er , he lived in street. he stabled the horses near those allotments where i've just told you about ny father had allotments. and i used to go and take these two horses and stay with them on a saturday afternoon grazing on this daisy field, all saturday afternoon. i think we used to get threepence for that saturday afternoon's work for grazing these horses. but i was so small i can remember very well going down this what we called the middle pad, this roa , it wasn't road, i think it was called middle pad. it used to lead lead to station and er i've seen these two when i've been walking around, i've seen them take their head up and lift me off the ground. i was so small you see. yeah. but ern we'd stay with them all saturday afternoon. one boy'd do it one week and another boy'd do it another week you know. and er we'd get the princely sum of threepence of doing that. erm i graduated from that to taking newspapers which a lot of us did. w would you, when would you do this? twelve, you weren't allowed to do it until you were twelve. twelve to fourteen you did that, and i took papers out for a newsagent called on erm . i had two rounds in the morning and a round in the evening. and the two rounds in the morning you did the bottom half of , for the first round and you went back to the shop and you got another bag full of papers and you did the top half of , if you know it. and erm like such streets as street, road, street, er road, road, street, all those streets you did. that was the top half, that was the upper crust,th they were funny . the the the the so called better off people lived at the top half, and the the the poorer type of people or the poorer class of property was on the bottom half, oddly enough and er what sort er you were saying sort of segregation better off people, what sort of jobs well sort of well well you see er when i say that i mean erm er er insurance men, postmen, and postman was a very good job in those days you see. postman was looked up to in those days, he was an educated man. a really educated man, if you if anyone had any forms to fill in er it was the postman you invariably went to, because he was considered to be, he could read and write you see. er and lots of people couldn't. er er bank clerks, this was the top half er shop keepers, erm and and and sort of the further you went to they, the better the people came because they were top half i mean i remember tom williams the professional golfer, he lived up there. er the bank manager lived at the top half. erm and various people like that you see and it seemed to sort of you you went up the scale. yeah funnily enough, like that you see, i don't know why, dunno why, but erm it was so . and and you the other half i mean what sort of well the lower class of course they were the labouring class and the out of works and and the very low, you see the the people on probably a wage of two pounds a week and less. and when you think of a railwayman earning a pound and thirty shillings a week you know. yes, as a as a as a porter or a a a erm what they what used to call them that worked on the line, there was a special name for the li the people that read repaired the lines. they were very very poorly paid, on the railway. well look at a miner i mean if he worked three days a week he might only get thirty shillings, in tho very very very seldom worked a full week. and you got to bring families up on this you know. why why why didn't they work, you said they di very seldom the work wasn't there, the work wasn't there. so if they didn't want the coal they didn't go to work. not like ti is now stockpiling it you know, and here we are paying interest on a mou , umpteen million pounds worth of coal. oh no if the if the if the if the if the owners well they were privately owned then the mines were and if they didn't want to er get the coal out you didn't work. if they couldn't sell the coal. so this would affect your father then ? on no my father was fortunate you see because he'd got to go to work because of the because of the horses. he was very lucky. he had to go you see, but i mean er later in my lifetime when we lived in the in the village at i can remember very very well the the er the miners there er going to work and then coming home again, going to work and coming home again, nothing for them to do. there was a special system they had of erm of giving out work. i forget what they call the men but the men used to sit in groups, i can see them now siting in groups. and this er oh dear what was the name of it, they had a special title for the man that sort of ran the stall as they called it for getting the coal out and he he chose who he wanted to go to work. you were you were new. but erm it was rough but it was er it was a good way of life in some respects you know. was there much, can you remember much unemployment? oh yes, yes oh yes a lot of it in the thirties, tremendous amount of unemployment. in fact it was far worse than it is today you know. er they grumble about it today but when you think there there there was very little dole in those days, very little dole. i mean i can remember the nineteen twenty, i i weren't sure whether it was the twenty one or the twenty six strike, and my father was erm on strike, you see, but the ponies had to be thus cared for in the field an i don't think he received any pay and i remember very well erm going to the, my father applying for relief, and er we had to go and face the erm court of referees. and i can remember as a child my mother had to go, my sister, myself, and my father. and we were called into this long room at the erm it was at house at and er there was all these well i considered them to be old men, they couldn't have been so old you see but i was only a boy. and my father was a applying for this relief. this, can you just explain the relief was well the relief was for , money to live on you see. yes so this was through the well it was it was charity you see. it was the local council money sort of thing, government money government yes. like it would be d h s s today you see. and erm anyway they went into all your means, and what you'd got and what you hadn't got, i think my father had to sell his cycle. and then we were down to five shillings a week, there was four of us you see, five shillings a week relief. and erm the provivo proviso was that you had to pay it back though. and as i i recall on a saturday morning i used to have to take the er one and sixpence each saturday back to this house, and they used to issue us a little receipt and i remember my father keeping all those receipts until it was paid off. and when you think of a man earning about at the most two pounds ten shillings a week, one and sixpence was quite a sizable amount out of it, but eventually he paid it all off. erm and during that strike erm we were fed in a soup kitchen. and i presume you know what a soup kitchen was like. no, could could you explain ? yes, erm well it was the back scullery of a er a local person's house, now these people, er it was a mr and a mrs . that er lived in this house and they were the the real grass roots of the old labour party, the real socialists, not like the ones that we know today that only pay lip service to it. they were the workers and er they sort of opened their kitchen up, or the back scullery, they went round to the local butcher scrounging and begging meat, to the greengrocers for peas, parsnips, carrots, you name it it all went into this big huge copper, which i've previously described to you as a washing copper, and they boiled all this soup up and we kids used to take the a jug and er we had to find the biggest jug we could, in the house that we could get, well the biggest jug we ever had was the wash-hand stand that was in the bedroom, that's the wash-hand stand jug. you probably don't remember it but there used to be a bowl and a big jug for washing you in the bedroom. you used to fill it with hot or cold water and use the bowl. well we used to take this wash-hand stand jug fro the soup and er they'd fill er this with vegetable soup and er a hunk of bread. they didn't use to cut it in slices they used to break you a piece off a a big loaf. and er the reason we took the biggest jug we could find it wasn't so much to feed two children in the house you're parents also wanted a bowl because believe me in those times we were we were hungry, we were dear, very very hungry. but er we survived it and erm er another my father was a was a born countryman and er during his time he used to go and do a bit of er poaching. and i remember very very well he had a big heavy coat and my mother put him in a very big pocket on the inside of the coat and we always called that his rabbit pocket, because he very often came home with a rabbit. also as very rare delicacy at times we used to get the odd pheasant, and the odd partridge. and of course during the strike period er this is one of the things he used to supplement our meals with you see. where where would he go to? well he'd go , er we lived at this t time in road, well you went up the top of road and then you were across and on into forrest. now beyond forrest there were all fields, there were the two railways, the old great central railway on one side of forrest and the old great northern railway on the other side of the forest. well my father, when we lived there he worked at the colliery and he used to walk home and during he s , before before he m before the strike we used to have these pheasants and things, and rabbits which he used to catch, because early morning he seemed to know exactly where to go to get a a pheasant that was roosting in a tree, you see or a bush. the rabbits he used to put a snare down for, and erm if we were lucky we got one. but during the er strike he used to go out purposely to get them and he used to go onto these fields. he would probably have got shop by the local farmers if he'd been caught but er he used to go on these local fields and er and er sn snare rabbits you see, or get a rabbit. and that used to supplement our our meals. and he wasn't the only one that was doing this you know, my father wasn't an individual just on h his own, there were other men did this sort of thing. and er that's how we we survived the the strike as we did. er we got through it.erm and when you think there was no money from anywhere but that five shillings a week that we got from the, from the er i think it was called the board of guardians, i'm not sure, and er we survived. erm i did know at that particular time know what it was to have holes in my shoes, and a piece of cardboard put into it to protect your foot from the hole. like a, thousands more, and another thing we knew we we very often, my wife and i were talking about it only the other day, there was an old saying that er er percy white's out of prison. i don't suppose you now what that means at all do you ? no, no what does that mean ? well that's when you've got a hole on your trousers and your shirt was poking through. oh. and you was you was told that percy white was out of prison. this is true dear. b my wife and i was only discussing it er day before yesterday i think it was, we were talking about it because we were talking about this sort of thing. would your mother, did your mother make clothes for the family ? no i i , she had a machine, we had a sewing machine, i could tell you a story about that but i won't. er she had a sewing machine, she used to make er sort of shirts but not suits and things like that she didn't, she repaired them. you'd have a patch you see and your trousers would be patched, and er i had no brothers to sort of hand-me-downs so of course mine we went had to be worn out, and erm you're normal attire in those days was a er a pair of trousers and a jersey, you didn't have a suit as such. er when you did get a suit it had to be kept for sunday, for going to to chapel you see, and if you were going to have a new suit it would always be at anniversary time, you didn't get one every anniversary. this was easter time, this what you call an anniversary . easter time that's right, round about now. yes. round about now. and erm that's when you er when you had your a a a new new rig out as they called it in those days, they called it a rig out, new rig out in those days. might get a pair of shoes and a two piece coat and trousers you see, but invariably your school attire was a jersey and er a pair of trousers. and er never shoes they were always boots, didn't have sort of half shoes it was always a pair of boots that you had. and er stockings and er you ha you wore stockings then ? wore stockings that's right yes you wore stockings. erm and i i as far as i can remember i think such things as underwear were unknown. you know a pair of pants and vest. you'd wear er you might have a little vest in the wintertime but erm i think they was virtually unknown. and when i think back you know when i think about it and in the lower class of family even pyjamas were unknown. a a lad that wore pyjamas was considered to be a bit of a a sissy type of a lad you see. you'd go to you'd go to bed in a well if you were lucky you had a nightshirt or even in your own shirt that you was, as a young man you would. mm. you know, how that change has taken place and i as i say we we were we were compared to some we were well off, we'd got a tap in the house.so many people hadn't even got a tap they were in the yard, and that tap was shared by a dozen families. that's that that up to recent times was happening in . and and in this the street where you lived did most people have taps oh they had a tap in the house, everybody had a tap in the house and they had their own toilets. toilet and the and the toilet the toilet was adjacent to the, was built on to the house. but a lot of them at the bottom of the garden. you used to have to go right down the garden. but ours was, we had the the house the s the scullery if i can describe it and then there was the coal house and then there was a toilet. as i've said to you the the old bastinal used to hang on the toilet wall outside was a whole row of them you know these these big galvanized bath things that were brought in on maybe on a friday night. and the youngest was bathed first to the eldest and as the young one was bathed bed, upstairs to bed, upstairs to bed, you see and so it went on. can you imagine it? not much. oh dear. but erm i erm i recall as well the shops that we were talking about. i'm not sure , the grocer's shop erm , now er they did credit trading in those days and most people took the credit. you used to have a little book and er the grocer would write it down what you'd had in the book you see and then you had to pay for it on th at the weekend. and if you didn't pay for it at the weekend you got no groceries next week. mm. and erm that's how it used to be so o obviously you had to pay like that but er i can remember the the coop coming to . it was called, i i can't remember it opening but i can remember the the cooperatives association, not the , it was the . and that was on the corner of er er road and street at . and they had a shop on vale as well and a shop in erm on , big s store on road at but that was the cop , independent coop you see, like they all were in those days, the coop, the coop and so on, had a coop, had a coop, had a coop at er, they've all had three shops. and this was a wonderful old grocery shop, er plain wooden floors you know, no tiles or anything like that, just the wood floors and i can see the barrels of apples and the barrels of this and then the oranges and the all the groceries and the bags of flour and the bags of sugar and and the and the grocer weighing the sugar up and all this sort of thing. and the tea in tea chests, loose tea in tea chests and you used to weigh it up by the quarter. so everything used to be weighed weighed, yes yes, very little prepacked. well it was more, it wasn't profitable you see the the the profit lay in the er in the in the packaging of the goods. i mean i i the new innovation is just coming round today i see starting the same thing all over again, you're weighing your own products at the . you see it's it's a little cheaper, see. but erm and all sugar used to be packed in thick, very thick blue bags, heavy blue thick bags, and there's an art in doing it as well in folding the the bag , i've watched them hours and hours. and er they used to pat the butter. the butter was all loose, there was no prepacked butter, it was all c came in tubs you know. and the and they used to pat the butter, there was one firm that specialized in nothing else, the . and er you you you could hear them patting this butter outside a shop you know, it was a lovely sound on marble slabs and they were patting away at this butter. but and how would they s how would they sell that? how would you take the butter home then ? buy it by pound, yes, they wrapped it up in paper wr in greaseproof paper yes they'd pat it into they wrapped it up in paper. a square. oh i see. and take so much off and pat it up and then then wrap it, very nice and neatly. when you think of the work that the old grocer used to have to do you know, make you a three corner bag out of a bit of paper, to put a pennyworth of pepper in. i mean can you see it really when yeah. when you think about it, yeah. and of course they sold almost everything the grocer sold almost everything. and er the then again that that's all all changed. erm even the chemist shop as such has changed. that's been sort of revolutionized, when you when you think that you used to have to buy, didn't have to buy your tea, but you used to buy a tea from the chemist shop and the only person that sold it was a chemist, that was . which is sold everywhere today, you could only buy it in a chemist shop, tea. along with tea, that was another brand that the chemist used to sell. was a digestive tea, they called it digestive tea in those days. to sell it of course, but erm that was another facet of it. did you go with your mother then shopping oh yes, yes. and i could tell you another story as well, i maybe used to pinch an apple out of one of the barrels. but the shop, the store manager knew and it was paid for. oh i see. you see, he knew. ah. as a child, i can remember it ever so well, doing it, mm, taking this apple out and and invariably used to have one when i went in. but me mother used to pay for it you see. it was an understood thing, i think the kids used to do this but the parents used to, use used to pay used to yes used to put it right yes. he told hadn't he, the manager. but erm those were those those were school days. the school itself as i say i went to er street school. and er in later days it was called the school. it got rather sort of upgraded. what sort of, what time did you start school, can you remember ? nine o'clock in the morning , er till twelve. we used to have a lunch break at around about half past ten i think ti was, we used to go out for a quarter of an hour into the school yard to play and have your lunch. you used to take your lunch with you, as sandwiches. erm i can recall my first day at school. it was a miss , was the he the teacher. and a miss was the head mistress. this was the junior school, we went at five. and as i say you took your little wrapped up lunch invariably in newspaper, because they was no such thing as tissue paper int hose days you know, that wasn't hardly available. and erm you used to cut it into the basket in the corner. and what everybody had to put their everybody yes the name, your name was on written on it you see. everyone put their lunch into the basket in the corner and in this first class there used to be a a sandpit and i remember we we had very big cards, well i say very big about six inches long by three inches wide. and each one had got different letters of the alphabet ion it and that's how we learnt the alphabet. with these cards. i think there was three or four classes in the primary school. then you graduated into the sort of the er erm upper school. and you say in in in this class, this is when you first went to school they had a sandpit, this was for playing in ? that's right playing in, the sandpit, that's right a, a sandpit in the corner for playi we kids to play in you see. and er i remember this miss very well, she was i , skirt down to her ankles sort of thing, black skirt you know and high collar and sort of tied hair, very dark person but she was a very nice charming lady as i recall now. and erm i think you know you you owe quite a lot to your first teachers, quite a lot. and er i i as i say i moved up into the next er school. can you re remember what sort , oh this was a different school? no, same in the same school, in the same school yes, different different sort of department sort of thing. the primary school was a small school on one side and then we moved over to the boys, and the the boys school was on the top floor and the girls school was on the bottom floor. and we all used to we we both schools ended up, er used to use the same assembly hall. and erm we used to go into the assembly hall every morning for prayer and then we should just go up to the erm we we used to go upstairs to the er to the classrooms which were off a long corridor. there was one long corridor and all the classrooms were were off this corridor you see, i i should think there'd be er five, five classrooms, it was it was no sixth form. can you remember what sort of s , how many children to a class,? oh yes i can, about forty or fifty of us to a class. and erm the first class was a mr erm mis was a miss . a miss , that's right, she took the first class. that was one of the, graduating from the primary to the upper school. and i remember her very well and the next class we went into was a a mr . can you remember what sort of lessons you you did ? oh yes, yes, yes, we did er we did everything, all the the three rs and everything else. and as we got up into the classes we also had a woodwork er centre, and metal shop there. and we also had a swimming pool about, a small swimming pool. er only a small one, erm it was real a a learner er swimming pool, but erm the less this was contained in the school grounds? that's right, yes, well it was a school yard, it wasn't, they weren't grounds a as such, it was a yard. an asphalt yard. and erm we erm when you got to about the third class i think you you was allowed to participate int he woodwork and metal er class, you used to go across for half a day a week. and other schools in the area used to use this facility as well as well as we did. and the the pool too. like from road at , and er i think i'm not sure whether or didn't use to use it as well. there was quite a few schools used it. road schools, they used it. er the woodwork centre as well. a man named was the er principal of that er of the woodwork and metal, i think there were two teachers there two instructors if you'd like to call them that. and what erm what would you do in this sort of would you make things that you could take home ? oh we'd make things, make things, that's right, yes,instruction. they taught you how to to saw a piece of wood and how to make a joint, a dovetail joint or a mortice and joint. er i think i , the height of my erm efforts there was i made a needle box, a needlework box, with all the partitions in and we french polished it and all this sort of thing. and i also made a couple of erm copper ashtrays and and and beat them. and we also did a bit of leather work to, where we used to hammer the the leather and put colours on to it to make purses and that sort of thing. these are things they don't do at school today do they? not much of them anyway. not in that class of school. and would these be with the with the idea of teaching you almost like a trade, you know sort ? no no no no no not a trade, just to make you handy. no it was just it was just so you, i mean let's face it, er my father used to mend our shoes, repair our shoes, in fact i've still got his hobbing iron now. you don't know what a hobbing iron is do you? no. it was cast in heavy metal and er it had er sort of a a sole on one e part of it, and a heel on the other part, and then there was a small children's sole. and er you sort of pull the shoe over the sole and er then hit, my father would sort of shape a piece of leather around the sole of the shoe and then er he would sort of tacks that went through, the hobbing iron which was iron of cours tacks that went through, the hobbing iron which was iron of course would bend them over inside your shoe, just like a normal cobbler repairs shoe. then he'd have a, then when he'd done that he'd have a erm, oh i think they used to call it a a wax ball, er to rub round the end of the sole and have a an iron that he would rub this wax into the seam between your your your shoe itself and the leather to seal that off and make it waterproof. and it all our shoes were repaired on the backyard, like that er he had no shed ad there was no outbuildings were we lived at anyway, and er he'd always sit in the summertime in the backyard repairing shoes. where wold he get the material for ? he'd buy that from a cobbler's shop, from a shoe repairer's shop. erm of which were there were many in those days er, not so many today of course but er er ooh i should say there were probably on vale which was our nearest sort of shopping area to where we lived, there were probably two or three erm shoe repairers, including , and you could go and buy leather there. get a a small piece, you could buy a i think it was called a side of leather or a whole piece of leather and cut yourselves out of it.and erm leather wasn't cheap even in those days, it varied in thickness. in ladies' shoes it was a thinner leather and the men's shoes it was a thicker leather. that's another thing they used to do in those days they never do now, a lot of men when they bought a pair of boots, they had them what they called plumped. and they'd buy a brand new pair of boots and take them straight round to the shoe repairer and have an extra sole put on, from brand new to make them last longer. you'd see men walking round on their shoes about an inch thick, you see. and the the moment that that sort of sole had worn off that the shoe repairer had put on it wasn't allowed to go any further than that, it was taken off and another one put on. consequently their sh their their boots lasted them almost a lifetime. and er on your, on the better shoe, like you what we call, might call a sunday shoe, you'd have a a rubber heel put on, i don't mean just a a complete heel but a round disc that was screwed on to your heel, if i can explain that to you. it's like a a rou round disc that screwed on and as that wore at the back you used to just slacken the screw slightly and turn it round until a little bit more of it wore and then you turn it round again until the whole thing was worn down. then you replaced that, that was saving your heels. this was for economy's sake you see, you couldn't afford to buy shoes like people buy them now and just throw them away. er a pair of shoes if you bought it had to last you a long long time. and these were the things that did and the only time you would get a new pair was if the top part of the shoe that's right, if the sho if the top part of the shoe went that was the only you got a new pair or if or if it burst around the sole and the seam. er there was there was a erm a stud that was called a . er that was the name of the manufacturer an you used to buy them on cards, they were all sizes and the big one you used to put onto the tips of your your er soles just in on the tips, to save the front of the shoe. and the er if you didn't have your rubber soles which er a lot of people didn't really like, i think most people thought they were a bit effeminate, most men did anyway, and they used to have these little metal tips put on, you see, or a metal sort of cross section across the heel, that was to save your your shoes again. would would women's shoes have the metal soles ? oh yes, women, yes they'd have little tips, little put on, but theirs were little tiny ones. erm we boys, my father used to s what we call stud our shoes, and they were round sort of metal studs, and these were sort of knocked into your soles to save the leather. this was innovation all the time just for economy's sake, you you as i say you you just couldn't afford, although you could buy er a beautiful pair of shoes for twelve and six, that was a lot of money. where would where would your parents buy your clothes? would you go into the city to buy ? oh no, no, no, no, local shops, local shops. i don't think i ever i have ever anything out of the city at all. er th the main shopping area for us when we li well it was when we, for both places, was . well main street catered for almost everything. there was everything that you particularly could want from a grand piano to a pin sold in main street. i mean there were erm draper's stores, there were furniture stores, there were all the butcher's shops, grocer's shops, greengrocer's shops, chemist's shops, ladies' outfitters, hatters, tripe shops, er seed merchants, er bakers, millers, erm i can't say there were wallpaper sop shops and paint shops as such because there wasn't such a thing as a wallpaper shop specializing it usually went to the hardware shop for wallpaper and paint. and paint wasn't as you know it today, there were perhaps three colours in paints, green, brown and cream. everyone's house, and that's another thing, if you wanted to paint as your house inside, the cupboards and the doors, they were painted brown and that was a lifetime's job, they were never done again, not like you do now with this freshening up of paint every so often. er wallpapering erm you invariably did that yourself or there were there were paperhangers and decorators about. erm if i remember correctly the pre-war price for hanging a wall up, a roll of wallpaper was about sixpence a roll, and that included preparing as well. and if you wanted ten rolls of wallpaper they'd paper your room for five shillings. in fact i have a bill somewhere where the next door to me at at the shop on street was papered from top to bottom and the total bill for the paper and labour i think is under three pounds and that included el e e e eleven rolls for a staircase. so most rooms were papered you didn't leave the walls just painted ? oh no no no, there was no such, there was there was distemper as it was called, er not like emulsion is today, there was this distemper that was called but er oh no that was that was for the pigsty the distemper was, whitewash. people used to whitewash their ceilings. erm with whitewash not with er emulsion, that was too expensive, they'd buy a packet of a packet of which would make so many gallons of whitewash and you'd whitewash the ceiling. but er if you had to paper the parlour was always papered in the ceiling but he kitchen was always whitewashed because we had these, if i explain to you these er fireplaces that er weren't very successful burning coal you know and the smoke would rise and before you knew where you were the ceiling was black again so sort of every so often up went the whitewash brush and you'd whitewash the the ceiling. but erm the paintwork was always, inside a house was always brown, like this is, as you can see it's woodwork, it was it was a colour like a chocolaty brown. and er i never remember er my parents painting anything in the house at all. i don't think my father would've known how to use a paint brush anyway. you know what i mean i i it wasn't done, wasn't done. th th when the house was built it was painted and i think that used to last it's lifetime. mind you it was paint then it wasn't like it is today, it was sort of good lead paint was put on, and it did last. and that's another thing i mean where erm as i got i mean cleaning was sort of a a spring clean was springtime and that was it. you had a turn out then and i think it lasted till the next spring, not like taking curtains up and down like people do now and hoover for the carpets, course the carpet would be taken out and beaten as you as you know, they weren't they were slung onto a line and beaten with anything that was handy. there was no such thing as a vacuum cleaners or anything like that you know.and er er that's just how it went on. it was an amazing thing really when i when i look back and think about the decoration side of it because, those fireplaces were had to be seen to be believed because they were, if the wind was in the wrong, you we , the room was full of smoke. and the kitchen was just through there and er my mother when she used to bake and cook er the blue smoke would be everywhere and er it must have been terrible when you think about it you know, terrible, it must've been. but er they they managed, they managed, they coped. just going,you were talking about decorations, with going back to the school, we were talking previously about school, yeah. h what were your, can you remember excuse me. what the classrooms were like? how were they oh very vividly. erm now the the it was it was a it was a mixed school but the girls were all on the, it wasn't a mixed school in the sense of the word there was mixed in classes. there was the the boys section, the girls section, and the juvenile section. now the juvenile section was on one side of the yard, the school yard. and there was this long building on the er the other side of the er yard. now the down floor or or the ground floor er th was the girls, and the assembly hall, the big assembly hall, and the boys classrooms were above the girls, you went upstairs, you see onto one wing. and there was a very long corridor with a mo what must have been i should think five, there was no sixth form, so there'd be five classes, five classrooms off this long the hallway perhaps as wide as this room which is what thirteen feet. and er the classrooms were off this with sort of wooden petitions and glass, in the door. and erm the er the first class was right at the very far end of the corridor. that's where you graduated from the junior class as a boy, you'd move up to that first class on this er this long corridor. and each year you moved up whether you were good, bad or indifferent you moved up one class, you see. you were you never stayed in the same class two years. erm you you came up this that's right class one and then class two, and then class three, class four, class five, that's right, right to the very end. and the headmaster's room was at the very end of that corridor where the fifth class was. er and we called er his name it was a mr , we always called him gaffer , it was never mr , it was the gaffer was the headmaster. and er he used to pop in and occasionally take the fifth class, whether it was because it was near to his office i don't know. but erm that was your final one and er that was run by a mr , i remember mr because he was also the sports master as well. so each class had mixed ability groups mixed ability oh yes, yes yes, oh yes, it was just d if you was if you was behind then it was just too bad. because erm even going back to those days it was the bright ones that were pushed forward and the the sort of dog take the hinder most sort of thing you know. and erm i think i was in the middle somewhere, i wasn't er brilliant but i must have been somewhere in the middle i suppose. i i can't complain, i had a reasonable education there, as to what was available, as to what was available. but erm it was good, the school life was very, very very good because the teachers, they were they were excellent men when i look back and think about it, they really were. and er what i see of the modern teacher i'm probably looking out with three different eyes, they don't seem to come up to the same standing as those men were, at all because one thing that i i remember very vividly about them all, and they were family men, what i call family men. and er i don't know they seemed to be sort of more worldly wide in many respects. probably weren't i don't know but they seemed to us i may be looking at it from a child's eyes but er that's how they seemed to be to me. i mean er i remember one year we had to we was asked to write an essay or a composition as it was called then, not essay, composition. as to what we were going to do in our school holidays, and if i don't, let's see, the teacher was named , it's be the fourth class, and er two of us decided we were going to, and this was before the days of hiking as such, we decided we were going to go hiking. we didn't call ti hiking we were going on a walk. and we described what we were going to do on this walk and where we were going to go and both sort of referred to the same composition and there was a prize for the for the one that was judged the best. anyway this boy and i was judged to be the most original and the best you see. and er the prize was a erm a trip into the with a teacher, on his motorbike and sidecar, he'd got a motorbike and sidecar. and er he he wen he took along on this jaunt right out to , into the,he showed us the erm major oak, i can remember it very well. and he came, when we came back again, he brought us along the erm main road back and er and er he we visited er bridge. now this was the old wooden toll bridge, before the new bridge was built, i remember that being built in nineteen twenty eight. and erm this was the first time that i'd ever been sort of as far afield into the country as this, and to go and see the erm er toll bridge at , that was, and top go over it, because it was a long wooden bridge that used to go over, and er we thought that was absolutely fantastic. that was our prize for writing an essay, but he was a human being, this this teacher, he seemed to be so friendly towards us, you know. although erm on the other hand i'd plenty of strap, what we call strap you know. was what form of discipline ? yes, oh yes. the cane, cane and strap you used to have, the teacher used to give us the strap, the headmaster used to give us the cane. erm what was the strap, can you describe ? oh yes, it was a leather er erm a piece of leather with three tongs on it and a handle to it, and er you used to have this strap on your hand. not your body at all. and er er it varied from one stroke on one hand for a certain thing or one on each hand, up to i've had as many as six strokes of the strap. what what would you have done wrong to get say one strap? one strap? erm talking. persistent talking you would get two. in fact i had it six for talking in class, i remember very vividly having six strokes of the strap on my hand. so oh we used to shake our hands, we didn't use to go home complaining. we didn't report them to the authorities, or anything like, we knew we'd we'd earned them. i had strap many times, i remember once, on my desk, in my desk, they were lift up desks at the time, and it it and it was teacher was a grand fellow , and i got under my desk, underneath my desk, written underneath it, erm god helps them that helps themselves, but god help them that i catch in this desk. and of course we used to have desk infect inspections, of course we used to take that down before a desk inspection you see, this we had a surprise inspection and lifted it up and saw this and read it out, read it , right, he said, and we'll go god's going to help you do something else, come out . and i had three strokes on each hand for that. so he'd hit you in front of the class ? oh yes, oh yes, oh yes, we used to get punishment in front of class. now anything really deadly serious that took place then you taken to the headmaster's room and he dealt with it. what were these serious cane. with a cane. now being late, the headmaster always dealt with you fro being late, that wasn't a teacher's responsibility at all.you used to have to line up all those boys that were late, you used to have to line up outside the the headmaster's room, one at a time, i i jus on each hand, you used to have a cane on each hand. never on your backside like you see in the films, that sort of thing, always on your hands, never anywhere else, never got hit your body. erm after you'd had this erm punishment ere you expected to go back to your lessons straight away, how long did it hurt, did your hands immediately, of course it hurt. your hands were red, you used to shake them, and go back straight back to your work. and i never remember any boy ever cry. you didn't cry, nobody showed it like that. and er i think in the junior school, it was in the juniors you didn't get punishment there as children in the first school, you stood in a corner, that was your punishment. like i i see it done today i think that sort of thing, you used to stand in a corner. but erm oh no we we er we we took it and and that was it, you accepted it. accepted it. and er another thing that we never did in those school er very very very rarely did a boy erm oh what did we use to call it? when he he he evaded going to school, play truant. he he very rarely played truant a boy didn't it's er in fact i er i don't think i ever did, to my knowledge played truant at all during school. it was a very very rare occasion, er you had to be ill to be off school. you never thought of just taking the day off ? no no no no no no no never. never even even your last day at school you you didn't take it off. you were there. why do you think that was? well i think it was the discipline that you'd got in those days. it just wasn't done. er school days were school days. you went to school at nine o'clock, you came home at twelve, you went back at two and you came home at half past four. and erm we never thought about playing, i suppose there were odd boys that did this sort of thing but er they were very very rare, very rare. in fact you you the classroom was always full, there were no spare seats at desks or anything like that, and if one was empty you knew something was really radically wrong. er i think one of the greatest er causes of s absenteeism, it wasn't so much ill health er not on the part of the pupil, i think it was more er if something was wrong within th family, particularly if you was an elder daughter or an elder boy, you see and erm, if your mother was ill or or confined you see, you were probably kept at home er for those sort of reasons to either look after the the younger children at home or to help to to look after home. i mean there was no such things as home helps and and that sort of thing in those days, it was a case of of doing it yourself. and i think where where youngsters were away from school that was a greater reason for them to be at home, to look after home, whilst their parents were ill or if probably one of the other kids were off ill or something like that you see, because in most families there was what three and four children. i mean ours was a comparably small family with two. and erm as i told you before we had, i had two aunts with eleven each. and erm i should say the average family was around about four, four mark, four and five children mark. so what, elder children had res had quite a bit of responsibility ? oh very much so, very much so. very much so. very much so. in fact my own wife, she came of a big family and and she had to look after most of the the younger children until they started work you see and then it was the next one that had to look after them again you see and so on, and that's how it went on. but erm er the school days i think were were really the best days of our lives, but they we were the happiest days anyway because i enjoyed them and most kids enjoyed school in those days, not like it is today. and er we had some marvellous school parties. erm when i say parties that's probably not the right word because erm party indicates sort of food and games, we had concerts and we used to put on these concerts, the pupils used to put them on ourselves and our parents were invited to come and watch these concerts. what at christmas time ? no no no, that was a special one. er the christmas party, that was always a special party. the whole of the school would join in that, boys and girls were together, they were se segregated in the hall you didn't sit next to a girl or anything like that, the boys were on one side, the girls were on the other side. but the the christmas party was something out of this world. you used to have to take a er a erm your own cup and erm that was for your for for whatever we had we i don't know i remember we had lemonade or pop or whether it was tea or we had er we had to take a cup, and er most of us invariably took a a big handkerchief with us. now you might ask what the big handkerchief was for. and i assure you it wasn't to wipe your nose, it was to bring home any surplus cakes, that were left on the table. and you were you were invited to take those home and they used to say, put them into your big handkerchief and wrap them up. erm either for the younger children that were at home or your parents to eat. and er nearly every boy used to take a handkerchief along with him to the, that was to the christmas party because that was the only party you had a meal at school. and er as i say we had a concert after this but th th i can't remember whether they were professionals or whether any good amateur people. but we had some fantastic concerts, we had a stage at the end of the assembly hall, and they used to put on this erm concert for us, singing, dancing and the piano, i remember that very well, the piano. and er it would you would have tea at about er half past three, and probably the concert'd start at about half past, about five o'clock, half past. and we should come away about sort of seven o'clock in the evening, it didn't go on till late at night, you know, like some of them do now. you'd go with your parents? no, no, on your own, no no your parents weren't allowed to that one, that was that was children's party. that was a it was a party. and er the trestles and the tables were all laid down the assembly hall and then we had a er er after the erm when you had your your meal, which consisted of sandwiches and cake, that was all. it wasn't a knife and fork effort at all. and er we'd have to clear all those away, and the chairs would be put into rows as i say, the boys'd sit down one side, the girls would sit down the other. and the junior school would sit on the floor in the front and that's how it used to be arranged. that was every christmas there was a party of some sort put on for us at school. but erm mr was, he was the headmaster, he was another great character, a great fellow, he was a very big, he was a tall man, about, well over six foot high. i mean i can't remember really but i should say he'd probably be about six foot two or three. he always used to wear a bowler hat and very dark clothes. and er he'd only got to sort of look at you and er that was it. with him. but the discipline was at school w it was when i look back it was marvellous, we we were never really bad lads. we got up to mischief obviously like a lot more, youngsters do even today, but er there was none of this sort of vandalism, we didn't use to destroy anything. erm if we broke a window it was accidental. i mean i walk around the town and i see a factory or a shop or a house, it only got to be empty about a week and all the windows are smashed. we did nothing like that. we broke windows accidentally, we were throwing erm in fact i was only talking about whip and top the other day, and erm er which was a a game we used to play . and there was the erm there was a top called the window breaker, and it was a special top that had got a long stem on it and a big round like a mushroom, it was like a mushroom almost. and erm these things used to used to sort of wind the r the the the spring or the leather thong around th top and start it off to spinning you know and then you'd keep whipping it like that and you could make these things jump into the air, in fact a friend of mine was telling me, we were talking about it the other day. he said, he saw one boy hit one of these tops and it went straight over a house top. so high. now these things used to break windows obviously, you can imagine it can't you? and that's why they were called a window breaker these tops. and it you broke a window you had to pay for it. or your parents did. there was none of this running away and, i haven't done it, and this that and the other. you had to accept the responsibility if you broke the window and your parents used to settle up for you. you got a good hiding for it but but that was it. you you you used to break windows but it wasn't done like you see now people, kids s picking up bricks and just breaking a window for the sheer delight of it. and that wasn't done. erm but erm we we've gone through the games haven't we the marbles and that sort of thing we we played that can i talk about your erm school holidays, what ah. say the summer holiday what what would you as children have done in that your school holiday? well easter er and er whitsuntide wasn't a holiday, easter was a holiday. now easter was taken up with the sort of playing in the streets virtually. er whip and top and marbles and all those sort of things we used to do. come the summer holiday which was august bank holiday, for this i think we were away from school a month. now er first few days you'd be feeling your feet of course, you'd be playing all sorts of things, you know being free, er in the street, and all this sort of thing. and erm er where we lived it was adjacent to what i call well. now as a as it as it's pronounced there, is the town, but this was called well. now this was a li a piece of common land adjacent to cottages, which was on the sort of the north side of . and er there was a a sort of a a cliff, a sandstone cliff, and er out of this cliff side oh i just broke one. the plastic thing. oh it don't matter does it? hey. do this. that looks alright dunnit? it's meant to be in the middle. why is it? the wheels on the bus go round and round . mine. no. put it back. this is for tina isn't it? that is. one no, one's for reggie. yeah the one's for reg. look at that mummy. well this one can be for reggie. it's meant to be in the middle. right. touch it daniel. come with me then, we'll hang this one up for reggie. no this one. oh! oi for reg. he'll be munching on this all night. alright reg. da da da. no james. don't you can tickle his tummy. he did. look he went see. he's nice aren't you. your nice oi dan. let's see if you'll eat that. and let's get these other ones out for the old birdies outside eh? yeah i'm helping you. how we going to do it with these shoes on? well these ones are quite a lot oh damn it. what? this one don't seem to want to come out. well i don't look. he's not a fish dan. who wants a coffee? oh, we could have give that one to reg as well but it's a bit busted up. well leave it in the in the sink. just no, it it's out now innit? that's what i'm saying. i'll just stick it in the freezer and he can have it next week. that is a cortina there. looks good doesn't it? actually these do look good actually don't they? look at them. that one we'll hang up on the what about this one? this what did you do? nothing. what did you do? he must have stopped the felt tip. what did you do? clouted him with that felt tip. if i see you stab him with a felt tip. sunshine. you'll be in big trouble. brilliant. look what you've done james. well done james. that's really really good of you. naughty. what do you do now? he battered him. he battered reg so it come off. now it's covered in that. what a stupid thing to do you idiot james. can he have fat? can reggie eat fat? i don't bloody know. it's your 's cat. i'm gonna take it out cos i don't think so. course he can. go and put that down there. well. cos what about this big bunch ? what about this one? yeah alright. oi. i need, i can't see you doing that can i? you know i can't see you doing that. oh damn it. the wheels on the bus no you ain't got these strings in right. they should be in the middle. it was in the mi , that one's in the middle. yeah, that's the only one. oh. let's see if we've got some funny feet on here. no oh, dunnit? good doody doody. doody doody oh yeah look . dude. i know what you're on about now. oh doody what? the strings come out look that much. so what we need to do obviously is keep them in the freezer. innit? keep them in freezer. yeah? freezer. is it? until the birds want them. right, we'll give the birds this one . give that one to reg, that one to reg. got a bit of clingfilm or something. we can give these to reg now look. chuck them in his no give that funny to reg. that funny . and this big one. no. that'll just slide off the string, that big one. no, i'll place it somewhere. . won't spiders get on there? i don't think so. they will do. they will do. why not too big dan. you want a bird table to put it on don't you it on. yeah. we need a table don't we. to hang it on. don't get danny a chris , a desk for christmas. we'll get him a bird table. no way stupid. hey! dude. it's only for birds, not for me dan. come. come out. think i know where we can hang it. yeah i don't know about hanging it though. that's the thing. if i hang it up and it falls off it might shatter. dan. go on, quick. eat that. yeah, there's a thing here. police car? reckon. no somewhere. or no i don't reckon they're gonna come there do you? oh no cos reg will eat it. why don't i put that on her bird-table next door? no. see them get in dan. you've got nothing on your feet. get in. oi dude. get in. right. we'll have a little inspection later on to see if any birds has actually doodled on it. they ought of ate it. i mean. a a magpie was eating . a magpie? what sort yeah that would. what sort of bird's a magpie? a black and white one. what? like erm like a killer whale? you don't know. clear up the mess round here. i'll clear up the mess in a minute. gladly. get the others freezing then. doodle bum. oi. dan take this in for me. your mum's being a little bit of a nightmare today. the doodles on the beach go . mum.. have they got icing on? no. none of them got icing on today. excuse me. excuse me. chris, can i speak through there? any sides can you? you don't have to shout. why not? well you don't even have to get close. if you stood over there it'll still go in there? yeah. alright then, shall i? yeah. bang bang it can hear everything you say or do. even when you're there then? no. even when you go to bed. that's the , that's the best will it hear? yeah. that's the best thing about it. can i listen to it now. no. please. chris. can i have a light, jan? what? can i have a light? oh go on chris or i'll turn it on. is it on? don't get i want it on. it's on. well how does it go then? it's recording what you're saying. for father christmas. i know. in the car. have a look? which car? there's a box of matches up there, jan. instead of burning half the fag darling. look what he's done. turn it over . do you want another wee? one that one. two yeah why? come on, no no. carry on. oh dear. three. four sky six. no, no, no. six on t v. that's it. did you put the immersion on for me . yeah, have you put it on? i wanna listen to it afterwards. tops on the pens. hey dad. come out. pull it out. pull it. rub it out. yeah. what you doing? what's that? wh what you doing ? say i'm picking my nose to be dirty innit. not saying nothing. is it coming on yet? it's recording. no it isn't. it's got that push. this here see this? that bit there. no look. yeah. look. when that's on it's recording. that little light. when it's off it goes does it? mm. why don't you sing nanny your . and then we can take it down let chris' nanny hear it. you haven't seen chris' nanny have you? you haven't never seen her have you? she lives down where your nanny used to live, your great nanny and dad. grandpa's mummy. oh yeah. yeah. so when's your carol service? who's gonna come? who do you want to come to your carol service? you and chris. i want shall we ask dan? no. dan. dan. daniel. yeah. shall we ask the carol service. yeah. chris mum. mummy, mum, mummy. mum. mum. is she in there? is she in there . no she ain't? ask her. mum. no, you. you chris. my mum will come if you ask her nicely. no i want you to. she can hear what you're saying anyway. you ask her. ask her if she'd like to come. to come. don't dan. i can't see her. she's in that little box. how can she? it's magic. she's not. it's magic. look at that little tree up there. who made that? bang bang bang what what chris? you don't have to shout at it. you being silly? chris. is it ? yeah. is that ? somes mummy at no. it's got to go back to her. don't they? don't they chris? what? don't touch. i want a little. rewinding. it's not rewinding. it's recording what you're saying. father christmas can hear all this. i'm finished now. no. i want you to sing father christmas away in a manger then i'll turn it off. i'll sing it with you. away in a no. not that one. go on. have i forgotten something. oh yeah alright then turn the telly down. away turn the telly, turn the telly down now. right. santa's stuck up the chimney he began to shout. the girls and boys won't get any toys . my beard is black and there's soot in my . when santa got stuck up the chimney achoo achoo achoo hey. one more. away in a manger, and then that'll be it. that's too long. twinkle twinkle little star, how i wonder what you are. up above the world so high like a in the sky. twinkle twinkle little star how i wonder what you are.. gentle jesus meek and mild i can't do that one. baa baa black sheep have you any wool. yes sir yes sir three bags full. one for the master one for the dame and one for the little boy who lives down the lane . turn it off now. no more. i don't wanna do any more. have you turned it off? yeah. shall i turn it on now. this way. no that ain't it. that is to turn it on. what is it. wait here, what are you touching? the number thing. no. you can't touch that. well that after tea you can hear it alright? it's off now so after tea you can hear it. what we having for tea? erm sandwich? sandwich? i want a sandwich no. i know which is on. on and off. good boy. i know which is on. it's on already. no that's charging the batteries up. hey has it got does it charge the batteries up? yeah. oh that's got a tape. it's got a tape in. yeah. and the batteries. in the bottom. see. don't touch them. cos they're charging aren't they. but can i just look where they go in. it'll burn like the fire. they go in that little doorway underneath there. how do you open that doorway up? on there. no you just pull a little catch. which catch? one at the bottom. the one under here? yeah. hey. you gonna get your books to read? you get your books to read first and then we'll er yeah good idea, yeah go on then, quick. hurry up. no. you read your books and you can listen to it. there it is chris. that's a pen. hurry up then, get your books. i've found it. what? put the pens in the box. you want this colour. i don't want a colour. oh oh. you didn't want green colours felled? oh god. oh. major problem. right let's read your books. that's my book from right. and . read this one ben and lad. right, turn it over. page two. ben ben can run. ben can run. . here. this one. this one, no this one. no here look. here. this one. oh. look where we look we can run run . we can run look like. like this. look. we can run. we can run like this. yes but not here yes, but not here. can, can no. come come here lad help. come here lad. come here lad, help. come here lad, help. we can run. we can run a fast. we can run. we can run fast. can we run here? no but no ben. not here. not here. no lad not here. you no lad. not here. you can run fast, but not here. look here at no. look lad. look lad you can run here. run lad. run lad. run fast. what's this say? can no come here come here ben. come here lad . that's it. turn over. i like i like lad. . very good. i'm gonna read this. go on then. l a go upstairs and get the one about the animal circus is it? animal animal zoo. yeah. cos he can read that one really good. come here lad. you can't play. stop it. come here, lad. you can't play. stop it. where is lad mum can you no. where is lad? mum, come and help me look. don't tell him it all. well it's the only way he knows how to er pronounce it all. help me look look. you yeah. help. no. here is lad . good. can y you help me ben can you help me ben? i no. no, in here you in here. no. in you go. lad i can help you dad. i can help you dad. no lad you come can't come out help. look at lad. he can run fast. good boy. that's very good. but mum we're we're where. where. but mum, where can we play. we can't play in and we can't go out. . here dan? where can we play. this is the bestest one you can read. read it for father christmas. school ones first. where can we play. you play danny's reading. . you play there . no. you play this. i can play this. good boy. he's playing a drum. or she's playing a drum. this side. what's this. can we play here dad you can't play, can't play here that's it. can come. come out here. w we can play out here. stop no stop, stop. you you can't play here. but my mum no, no. but mum mum where can we play? where no. but mum where can we play? we we can play in here no. but we can't play in and we can't play here out. out. this side dan. can come in here come in. you can play in, in here. can we play in here dad. can we play in here dad? it yes on this time. yes. what's it you can play in here good boy. now this is the last one. oh i don't want to. no go on. you read that good. i'll read it to you then, if you don't want to read it. little mouse has come to say hello and welcome us to the animal show. kitty has brought her fiddle today and a merry tune she'd like to play she'd like to play. hurry up hippo we're waiting for you we all want to see the monkeys in the zoo. now what has teddy got with him there balloons little dogs clever bear. rabbit has a wand and a magic hat abracadabra just look at that. that's on a different page. isn't monkey funny in his red clown's suit? look how he juggles with all that fruit. here comes elephant with china and sticks to try some clever balancing tricks . what does that say? come here ben, come here lad. come here ben, lad come here ben the piglet choir has come along so we can hear them sing our song. can i have a lollipop? can i have a lollipop! we've reached the end of our animal show so let's clap our hands before we go . again. little mouse has come to say hello you gotta read this side. you can't read it. little mouse has come to say hello and welcome us all to the animal show. kitty has brought her fiddle today and a merry tune she'd like to play. hurry up hippo, we're waiting for you we all want to see the dance you can do. now what has teddy got with him there hurry up. balloons to make little balloons i want to listen to that. rabbit has a wand and a magic hat abracadabra just look at that. isn't monkey funny in his red clown's suit look how he juggles with all that fruit. here comes elephant with his china and sticks. to try some clever balancing tricks. balancing tricks. the piglet choir has come along so we can hear them sing a song. sing a song. we've reached the end of our animal show so let's clap our hands before we go. i want to listen to that now. ow! get one mum, get one . get one. i got one. quick. mum, mum . pull one. mum, pull one. i got one. i got one. ah i got one. get off. get off . mum. i got them. no. . don't. ooh ooh ooh don't . don't, don't. he even on the way back. did you see it? no. noo. mum, hold these two. don't . let go of that one please. please let go! don't.. oh. what was that? put your hands in there. and the other one. mum. hold his elbows out. no, turn it up. james, tickled me. oh look dribbler. don't be dirty. dan. you gotta put your hand in there. . mum you . lift me up here, lift me up there mum. here? . you can't with your hands. and when you away. right it hurts if you get smacked in the mouth what you do is you put your face look so that you can't hit me. and then you hang them upside down like right now. no. no. noo! ooh. that's enough now. someone's gonna get hurt. .that's enough now daniel. i feel sick.. enough is enough. erm who's gonna cut them out? me. what ? i got him out. i got him out. i got him. take them out and let them cool and then we can ice them, yeah? did you hear him? he got me. i'll get him, watch just watch. i'll get him right. i'll get him come here. . go on then. . here you are. your supposed to be getting me. got you now. .ow, ow, ooh what's the matter? don't sit on his legs. i'm not you get too rough. behind your back. no. yeah. if you say i won't hit you and put your hands behind your back what do you reckon i'm gonna do? do you reckon i'm gonna do it? now, put your hands behind your back. now. stop shouting. come on. you've had too much wine. i'm gonna tell you something in a minute and you're gonna find it very funny. can you come out and play. yes. that's enough now. that's enough now. danny! that's enough now. right. leave it out. didn't do anything. oh i'm gonna get you. the cat's frightened . reggie. you. don't do anything to me. don't. quieten down . oh we're missing this. turn it off. no. i want to see it. turn it off. i want to see it. turn it off . i want to see it what is that thing anyway? it's for father christmas. why? cos he wants to know what sort of boy you are. danny. he, he doesn't speak and he already heard you swear. so you'd better watch it. i to me. i'll be watching jaws tonight watching ? yeah . looks a bit fucking crap like the rest of them but that one and two were quite good. they got mr bean on saturday as well. mm is it mr bean on saturday? is it? three's a load of crap. that's the three d one. this one though i think it's not, i think it's just the people having nightmares about it. i don't know. it's supposed to be down in th , that, him following that, following that family innit? supposed to be . supposed to be following the family wherever they go on the beach. is it? something like that. michael caine's in it. although er it looked pretty pathetic it was on. we had a preview of it at home. fucking miss erm we missed carrot, carrot was on last night weren't it? mm jasper yeah. yeah fucking, my mrs said it was really funny. i like mr bean mr bean that's fucking brilliant that is. he just cracks up, i tell you what i can sit there two things i like no three. a good film yeah. i mean a good film. cartoons. oh fuck yeah i love cartoons . tom and jerry i like what dickhead gone? gone to get his lunch. what home? yeah. oh you . hello mum. oh yeah i tell you what, cartoons are absolute, they crack me up cinema? eh. you got er the rescuers on both sides? no just the other side . no. oh alright. yeah, leave he on. alright? yeah. he said we had to come down and take chris out . oh. oh, see. that flower thing oh is it? well might do. oh. alright then but the flower thing janet. yeah i alright then. see you later then. alright then. shut myself out? yeah. right, that brings you down now within the grant with those three over right. mm yeah, so you only pay the fifteen. okay, is that alright? that brings you right down now. so all you pay is the fifteen for the lock and . i suppose. i mean they only had their door there and letting in draughts and them running in and out you see we put that there look. yeah. i know. put them breeze blocks up. yeah. that's okay. very nice. very nice and cosy. yeah. it's lovely. well i'll do your windows now. alright then. erm . right? yeah? don't do that door. don't do the front door. yeah. don't do that door out there. yeah. and that out there. yeah. and that'll be the fifteen pound lot . yeah okay yeah. yeah have you got fifteen pound up there? yes i've got it. i've got it. . well we've got everything out of the erm loft for you. aha. right, fine thank you. well, so you can do one sweep, you know without jumping over, well there's only a piece of board up there isn't there? what we'd have laid the aha. what we'd have laid the erm cases on. the cases on up there. don't see many er some of the houses we go in. you hardly see the handle. oh don't you? no, no. mind you, when we come here first that was er like black. yeah. i got they're lovely when they're cleaned up. yeah. well it looks nice from the outside as well. yeah, yeah. actually i'll do these from outside actually. cos it'll be er make it a bit easier. well you do it how you okay. how you think you er i don't mind that what did they say up there? alright. thank god i never had eh? i said thank god i never had to show her. she said how was the last day. i said i don't know. first first said all you gotta do is make it out for a first of december oh she said i, you can't do that. i said course you can i said i'd had it for years like that. i said to her as how seeing i'm sixty one christmas i said i i can't, i thought it was stupid i said for erm for them to mess around like that. mm. trouble is none of them knows about i up there. oh what doctor. i said well i've seen five in the last bloody couple months. i didn't put it over there anyway. eh? i didn't put it over there anyway. no. that's what i said. miles away. what was the date friday? twenty fourth today. that's wednesday twenty four, twenty three, two, one, twenty, tuesday the seventeenth thursday i've got it on there, look. what? mm what time? oh four o'clock on there. mm. call it alright? yeah. evening olive. evening alf. how's he's very well is that you there? he got back yeah, alright? get away there, go away, go away. okay? mm. i said if he played with jim he'd win each. do you wanna go? yeah no i never had nothing i got er i'd rather have the power oh what was that? buy it but i er can i get you a drink? yeah if you would please i just don't think about it otherwise you do don't you? yeah. otherwise you do don't you, yeah. i was bored stiff and i er to much for you then i had four hundred pounds you don't seem to get my life like yeah yeah. six aye aye. jenny look at this. it's it's this. any more? where are you going for christmas then dot? oh we're oh yes then we're over at ellen's er christmas eve yeah and er they're coming down here for the morning she always does it yeah. then i'd help her help her cook about half past eleven i did last year i go there no it's a nice way how she did it her family go over there. yeah. i bet he can't count it. must have twelve quid. hello, how are you? alright? yes thank you. you're winding me up! yes, she's just there. why not? i have all those. i am not i bet they don't neither do i. no do you? get him out the chair. . that's why they matched him well i could yeah but they they're hard ah do you want to leave your coat on my madge? no left at home left at home with the washing nice and properly like in fact going to do yours. i wonder they know if they got no. it isn't important well it's winter now innit? yeah. and you'll you got be a bit more careful more there's more to life than being cut out. well yeah, but it's a it's i don't want to go back out i mean . not being taught if you were getting cut out you'd up to yeah. pat you on the back yeah. how do you like it there? alright it was your i wished i hadn't got there to be quite honest but cold as that yeah. as yet. then he couldn't. and he couldn't no. his life he couldn't pay it you don't want i used to be like that i think i know why he said it made him happy. well it made himself went about quarter past one little clock these cards to see what i says so. how did you do when uncle bob came home? i brought the duck i don't want the duck so i said to her i got the duck but after good girl and she you're alright with one thing and another and i said i told her i said i said to her when we were over there i said look, look you're right if you like again so er warden came round i got eighty seven. but i'm not sitting down . no i wished i'd i probably would have er overcome come that actually now by going back there but he got over that yeah. but i don't like it i should stay away from him. yeah. cos it's winter yeah. and it might be the winter alright there? hello jenny.. right now tomorrow no sh she's neglected. yeah, i always think i don't care if i don't, i don't bit of a old but i don't want to go actually i said when i was beginning, there is a reason when yes you have best of both and she didn't like it and sh so she don't oh oh she's gets me down herself. yeah because last fifty nine going i can tell you yes i know four of us want to go. yeah all the time is er newmarket near there yeah near newmarket i hope you're alright, we got a bit of with you. yeah. yeah. yeah, wonder what'll it'll be for. christmas's well i did have a ask me they wanna cos she's going no on the wednesday afternoon she oh yeah just then and i said because you got her hair on. oh right. she said she got for christmas yeah, but it don't last for ages. seven. by her yeah. i can pick it up well this is what i know of her but if you really have to well i'm no granny! alright? oh yeah course you she would yeah like that yeah. her. you'd be yeah. it's hopeless try and then play it back guess what, i bet that'll be i have a beer yes i do and i haven't gotta wa i haven't gotta i'm slipping over to i ain't up the road. no. er i i'm expecting to come here but she probably won't we were playing for four pound for two lines on saturday. aye? four pound for two line saturday night at eight thirty. was it? did you stay then? no i waited at the oh. had to wait for her to get her claim. oh yeah i know she's played for four times do do do play a man wears a jockstrap what does a woman wear? pardon? he said if a man wears a jockstrap what does a women wear? fan belt. you laugh at that, what's the difference between a buffalo and a bison? hair. eh? i don't know. you wash your hands in a bison. ah never mind . he's pulled a few plonkers, i thought. pardon? he's pulled a few plonkers already! yeah. yeah but i don't think he found somehow. no i have you what love? erm newcastle what i say . did ya? yeah stay up there twenty eight days come up in yeah. i always say that i enjoyed the r and r but it was as i go down ah. and when i . and they have those monorails and things oh yeah. actually i i actually girl. yeah she's gone erm red pop in this weekend save me going along the erm you might have a a well you can't i think they've run out. well well i don't know. you'll have to get a new one and . oi finish up your drinks get that. never had a there. on there. yeah he is hello there yeah. when you're playing about probably won the teddy bear . probably. go on in a minute yeah she's she had her pacemaker on only what you've got. oh i see. i i . i was gonna say i . only wants once. give up her yeah. it is unusual. yeah. how much more have we already had yeah she can't go to bed last time when i dropped her off sort my out press the black one on the. never mind, he said. somewhere red red albert you've got plenty of ties in there! wear a somewhere will be bloody red! bloody coat! it either is or it ain't. make sure you've got, you've got your tickets. alright. february the fifteenth you were out a lot . i got two. yes, make sure they're planned. yeah it is i wonder if i should find it ? hello cat! somebody had a load of boilers away like we got down our house, central heating boilers. yeah. forty three, thirty nine thousand quids worth. oh. did you turn that fire off upstairs? yeah. the fire. i did. i hate vegemite, it's too salty. yeah but marmite's too yuk tom what have we got first, er b then m. b then m? yeah. oh erm well you don't seem in a very good mood. will you wait for me, what time are you leaving here, about three two? why er why i, those are my problems cos i can't go. she just left a message on the phone. i can't do it, ginny has to do it. i can't do it either. why can't you do it? arrange a, to arrange er for you to have a facial done then. yeah. as well? yes i do. i know but skin yeah but you don't actually have any acne. but i have serious blackheads. i have no but i have acne. serious blackheads. it's a problem, it's a problem. no you haven't. one spot is acne to me . that's really nice. shall we watch t v? yeah. we might as well there's nothing else to do, apart from my, apart from my ucca form. why don't you alright friends? alright. please don't crowd me at once, you know it's alright it's not a problem. i don't mind having no friends. are you tape recording? yeah. don't you just love claire she's such a nice girl. she's so fucking easy as well. i know, rough bit. that's the worst insult claire can give. what? oh i'm sorry but they are so , oh what, well actually we live in majorca you know? her house is disgusting. is it? is it really really rough? it's like you know those houses her mum is fucking sharon has it got all those little little crystally ornaments? you know how you get those rows that are literally on a row? all it is is like this what? like a big rectangle. what? their house. i thought it was some massive mansion. what is it, have they have they got little things like little duck crystal ornaments everywhere? and gold carriage clocks and all the brass carriage clocks shit. well they are you saying there's something wrong with brass carri really trendy. a really antique one yeah yeah that really old one. always tells the weather as well. no ours is very small. ours is about that big and i think it must have been really fashionable at one point. yeah. we've got the most hideous plates in the drawers now you get them free from esso and stuff if you send away fifty tokens. just pop in, fill up in my imaginary car, yeah. yeah! fill up eh! er yeah another burn out! you're recording aren't you? yeah yeah while the other one's playing. and tonight i'm having two of my very favourite friends over and i'm gonna be eating my and i'm gonna go sucking them up, urgh i can hardly wait. where's this from? it's one of your pornos isn't it? who? urgh what's she doing back? who let her out the zoo? why don't you? you waiting for someone? oh god yeah i'm just waiting for to come in now. come on yeah. is laura still at home? mm. what's fucking wrong with her anyway? i never realized she wasn't, wasn't here. i never realized she was, she was wasn't here until about yesterday. no until she just told me now. has she shagged ? no. no. is there a family history of being very tall? no not really my dads about six foot three that's quite tall, yes. well he's six foot, six foot one or six foot t well you're you're tal taller than him, i should think, aren't you? yeah . yeah, oh yeah, yeah. are you well in yourself? yeah, fine yeah. but there's no there's no family history of other medical problems at all? no not really just there are one or two i mean when we see tall, thin, young people we think of all sorts of interesting medical things, but most of them are completely at all, you see so yeah. we always ask. no, fine. right, okay . i've had a bit of problem with me knee left knee have you ? don't know if it's cartilage or not? i just play football on sundays and i fence as well, thursday night . fence? yes i good fencer, long yeah. reach. that's right, yeah. football, er i thought you might be big for football. basketball definitely. it's there let's have a it's just there it after like when i'm resting it aches yeah. a bit. right. what about stairs and steps , when you go up and down stairs and i noticed a bit more lately, yeah yeah. but not so much twisting? if you've got a no not really no you're okay, twisting, okay just t just turn it's just sort of there. slightly. er no no no no your whole body right. get y get your knee in, okay. now i'll just wobble it backward and let it go. there's full range of movement. and a stable joint. it doesn't particularly wobble around, does it? no. okay. it's just that it's aching, i was wondering if the just er lift up, let it go completely l loose and limp, that's fine. if i move the kneecap around it from side to side . no if i push the kneecap up? no. okay. down. no that's alright. you're okay there? okay. just let it flop again. does it er hurt under there? no, not really, no. and at the sides of the joint there? no. it was just the front moving that was okay. i think if you have mainly pain in there it's much more likely to be a little bit of inflammation under the this tendon which goes from the muscle here over the top of the kneecap and attaches in there. right. and it's this muscle that makes the whole leg go like that. and it's a huge great big muscle but it can get a little bit er inflamed, as it passes over the front edge of the kneecap there. and that's what gives you the pain right at the front. it's not ah rela it's not actually the knee joint itself, it's got nothing to do with the cartilages and it's particularly common in people who are growing. or tall . or or have grown. well no, not particularly tall but certainly growing and it's probably been it's probably just er related to that. right. and you don't need to do anything. keep yourself generally fit,. so we'd better make a note of that. ache left knee, perhaps nothing to see. ah and then and you're not getting any side effects from erithramita no. no side effects, fine as far as i can tell. okay. now you're now er nineteen aren't you? i'm going to a university i was going to ask what you're doing. in september. erm what three times a day aren't you? yeah. yeah. it's dundee and they've asked me to transfer my medical records up to the local g p up there. actually what we'll do is we'll give you er you're probably a bit bigger than you were when we were giving you three er on three times a day. we'll give you twice a day but a slightly bigger dose so that's actually five hundred milligrammes twice a day. give you a hundred and eighty which is three months worth of those. yes when you go up there you'll have to register but if you i mean i presume the university term's what ten weeks? yes, ten or twelve weeks cos i starting yeah. in it starts september the twentieth yeah. so it is a bit earlier. but so you're going to be there more than you're going to be here, yeah. and er you obviously will need to register there. now there's two important things, first thing is your notes will take a long time to get up there maybe up to three months. right. i think some one has to walk from nottingham to dundee. no it's just that they take ages and ages and ages cos dundee will ask nottingham, nottingham will ask us to bring the notes back, then we'll send them to nottingham, nottingham will send them to dundee, dundee will send them to your g p. right, okay . convoluted isn't it? convoluted, but that's the way it goes and we can't actually release the notes to anyone but the local people in nottingham. so we can't send them up to your doctor. there's absolutely nothing to tell your doctor fortunately, so we don't have to do a summary for you or anything like that. but right. the important is that he knows what you're on and why you're on it, and you can tell him that. but i've got enough you'll write will erm you write a prescription one twice a day i i i would keep going with three month prescriptions anyway, so that'll keep you going till the end of november no not quite the end of november, but you can then see him and say look, i've got this this is why i'm on these for. yeah, right. and er he can introduce that. you'll probably find when you register you're invited to go along for a new patient medical anyway, and all sorts of things like that. right. all fun and game just one twice a day. best taken on an empty stomach so half an hour before food. don't interfere with paracetamol, they don't interfere with aspirin, they don't interfere with alcohol. that's alright then. okay. just to exaggerate those three points, i know, i can remember being a student myself. er the other thing of course, when you're down here we can carry on treating you with what's called a temporary resident . yes it's like the holidays, vacation yeah no problems seeing you while you're down here as a temporary resident, delighted to do so. okay? thanks very much. very good, what are you doing up there? it's retail and distribution management. aha. a degree so, aha. but it's a year out as well. so it's four years . four years,okay. have a nice holiday. see you bye now. bye. on the remote control, he wanted to do it. yes, you can switch it off if you want to. we can switch it on again later on so there's no worry. are we going to do these fish? i'll go and use the bucket. well i'll come and help you tim cos we don't want it falling all over the place. whoops. careful careful. oh that's the empty one. that's alright. here's the full one. and and this is the empty one. ooh! now, this is. have you cleaned up? hallo bertie. how are you? mum, do fish like people? do fishes like people? don't know, what do you think? mummy. hallo bertie edward. do you like us? mummy. yeah? i want er you want to have your sleeves rolled up? yeah er got this shirt on. yeah well we'll just undo the cuff. yeah. and roll it up. and there we are. and this one. is doing it? well that's we need christopher to do it as well don't we? yeah. now whatever you do don't drip it all over me stereo. okay? who's gonna get the weed out? me. well you could perhaps do it together but be careful. mind the fish. whoops. if you drop it into this one with the clean water in. whoops, look out cos it's dripping. right, it's christopher's turn then, you've had one turn. can you oh he hasn't got his sleeves done up yet look. only two. two what? two arms look. true. you'd look funny with four wouldn't you? i i go and get a er a . no but just let me go and get the cups from the kitchen. mum, tim is making me drop this and hurt the fish. tim is making you what? drop the mm drop this. that's it. when can i do the bridge? whoops. i want to do the bridge. i do the bridge. well as they're christopher's fish we'll let christopher do the fish d sorry do the bridge. go on then. whoops. no got it. okay now then when we pu whoops that's it. now i think we'll, that needs washing out doesn't it, that bridge? it's pretty mucky. right, put the dirty water in this bucket then with the bridge. i want that please. what the jug? mm. i think you'd be better with a cup myself. no i want the no come on cos he might go and get the fish in the jug and then we'll be in a mess. why will the fish go into the jug? be careful because they don't want to be in a thunder storm. hello fish. are you alright in there? yes thank you. oh good. i'm taking the bits out. right. i i'm taking the bits out. well just take all the, it's pretty dirty, look at the stones. we wash the whole bit out don't we? mm. okay. we need to leave them some to swim in before we catch them. just a little bit more. gently tim. why can't we leave them in that water? well what do you think would happen to the poor things if left them in that water? i don't know. do you know that fish can't breathe unless they're in water? so if they're out of the water they die just like if we're under the water too long we die. right, i think we should stop now and get them out of there. stop tim. i i can i borrow this, this cup now to fish these fish out. fish the fish. come on fish. fish the fish out. here you come. are you edward or bertie? erm edward. let me see. oh chris was the expert. he knows. whoops. think that one is edward. right edward, come on. think that's edward. come on edward. yes that's edward. in here please. thank you. that's edward. right into the water. that's bigger than the other one. but that's the whoops. bertie's disappearing. come on bertie, in this cup. aha caught you. there we are. now then i'll take those over there. you don't need to do that now look cos i can just carry the thing into the kitchen. come and help me with the stones in the kitchen. i've got some stones. no no. don't get the stones out you dilly what a noggin! right, let's take this into the kitchen and clean it up. can you bring the bridge. bridge? yeah we need the bridge but don't tip the take that one then. that's got the bridge in it. try not to drip it everywhere though tim. mum. mm. can i get the water to . pardon? can i get the water to go in it with the jug? hello. i've finished. yeah. we've already got some water. ugh look, it's horrible. ugh! what do you have to put stones at the bottom for? think we shall have to scrub these cos it's so horrid today. mummy. mummy what? oh my goodness. let me help you. thank you. i thought you were just bringing the bridge. didn't realize you were bringing the whole thing. there we go. mum when you took it all back when there's a bit when we've what? more water in when you're ready to put more water in, can i get the water and put it in the jug and pour it in? yeah, if you want to. we've actually got clean water in there cos that's clean water that's in the bucket that the fish are swimming in now. hello . hello. i've lost the brush. we need a brush for this. oh here we are. right. my favourite dinner. is it your favourite dinner? do you know what it is? yeah. it's meant to be cottage pie but i've put some what? i've put some breadcrumbs on the top instead of cheese. because we seem to like that at the moment don't we? it needs to go in the oven really. what? it needs to go in the oven really. pardon? what did you say? i really this time. really tatty? mm. really tatty. what? oh you mean the stones. yeah. it's quite it's quite erm are the fish tatty? it's a long time, no no no, it's a long time we since we er cleaned them. it's just dirty really rather than tatty. whoops. water at me. pardon? tim's throwing water at me. tim, what are you doing? can you come in here tim so i can see you please. tim. let's go and see what he's up to. come on. what are you doing? you're not throwing water are you? no. no we'll all get wet if you do. cos we're not, we don't want a bath. why . why what? why do you need to wash the ? cos they're cos they're messy. look you can see it's all brown. ugh. if we just wipe round the outside of the tank though, i think that will help. cos it's gone all funny inside, can you see? yeah. whoops. ugh look at that. ugh. i think it's the kind of food we're using cos it's different food from the food that we had at the beginning. it didn't seem to get as bad as this at the beginning. why didn't it seem to get as bad as this? i don't know. it just did n't. is it because mummy pardon? is it because we've given them a different have we already used a pot up? yes we used the little pot and then we bought that box. mummy. hello. where's the little pot mummy? what's your problem? you alright? i wanted to put water in there. you want to put water in? well we'll just give them one more swish. little pot mum. what little pot? the fish food you mean? well the thing was, because we bought a box and the box was a bit flimsy, i thought we would put the new fish food into the old pot, you see. so the old pot has still got some in but it's really the new food. do you see? why didn't you keep it in the box? there's still some food in there as well. right, okay. if you want to put your jug of water in now, this is your moment. do you want to get a jug full. do you want to get some from the tap? why? you can if you want to. because it'll probably need more than what's in the bucket anyway. tim, do you want to carry this? what? do you want to carry this? what? this tank. want to can you manage? don't drop it will you? shall i hold the cup. don't drop it whatever you do. mum, do you want it up to fill it up to the number one there look. that means one pint. mum could you what? turn it on. okay. i've done it. there we are. put the dinner in. ooh. oh well done. right, away you go, see if you can get it in the can i have the cup now? oh tim don't make hole will you? no. right do it like this. oops. tim's made a hole. i think you're doing it a bit roughly tim. can you do it more gently so the stones don't move. don't just pour it in one place. you're making another hole. put, tip it on to the bridge and then you won't make a hole cos the bridge will be in the way. oop! what a dilly. ah no. if you're gonna do it like that we're gonna have to stop you from doing it. come on. mind the fish. poor things. that's better tim. oh no! disaster. move the video quick. make sure it's dried. it is dried. oh! now just watch it with those fish please while i get a cloth. the bridge is under water. the bridge is under water now, what will you do? yeah. so is our room look. no it's not under water. it's a good job it's just water and not orange squash. oh! i caught a fish. a fish went in. oh christopher be careful that was quite clever really. as long as you didn't hurt him. there you go mister fish you can go for a swim now. now look we've got a fish in there and a fish in there tim so we must be careful now because otherwise we're gonna hurt them. no there's only one in there. i think i'd better fish that one out do you? yeah. there's already one in there tim now. yeah. so when you pour the water don't go tipping it there's already one in there. on top of him cos he'll get a shock. let's have this weed out. one in there already. you gonna help the weed? whoops. alright. i can't take all of it. woo er alright wait a minute now cos mummy's gonna fish this fish out. er mum, how do you think i caught it? oh look at all the bits in there. i don't know how you caught it love. it was rather clever really. yeah because when you catch you've just got to be careful because fish then if you're not careful you'll hurt them you see because if you touch their tails or their fins or something. there we are. right now when you're tipping it in now i should use a cup now christopher cos the jug will be too much water for them. alright? now just gently now. i i well watch where you're pouring tim. not on top of the fish please. use that but it's got dirty now. i'm gonna use that bit. . i'm gonna pour it over there. go on then. but that isn't in the way of the bridge. oh tim. whoops. oh look, next door's got a new car. unless it's a visitor. what do you think? got a white one look. will that be enough water yet? er bit more i think. gently does it. that was a good one tim, well done. oh no. see if you can tip it without the bits going in then. whoop whoop. i did. what? i did put a bit in. oh well. never mind. it will come out next week. what happens if you put a bit in mum? the fish might think it's food? well er i think those bits that are in there are really just bits of weed. i don't think it's anything too awful. what's this thing? ooh. that's a funny thing. will any ? i should think so. or does it nearly just a little bit. i think we've nearly got enough now don't you? mm. no we haven't yet. well if we have too much more we shall what? have it overflowing. and we don't want erm it over if it gets i'll g right to the top mm? we'll have to stop. i think we must stop before we get right to the top. why? i think we're gonna have a . this is a laugh. not very easy to get now. is it tim? no. it is. look tim put it down whoops. not very much left in there now. have you got it all here? oh i think there's only a tiny tiny bit left. now who's gonna get it i'll tell you what look. you hold the cup and i'll tip the bucket, right? i'll hold your cup. there you go. all done. right, we need a cloth now to wipe up the bits round the edges. what are you doing? i'm cleaning it. well look why don't you have one of these then you can do it properly. can i? now tim don't wipe in the fish will you? oh dear. it's in the fish. well you're a silly billy you are. it's the edges you've got to do look, not inside it. what about putting the roof on the ? yeah, we need the roof on don't we? i'll put mine over the mm. do you want to pick up the top, the lid please. i've got it. except if we're gonna put food in we didn't ought to put it on just yet did we? no but we could put food through there. oh we could put food through there. no you want dry hands cos if you touch the food with wet hands guess what happens? what? can you guess? no. it sticks to your fingers. have to wash our hands. food. yeah, just make sure, oh look at your trousers! soaked. when did you do that? mummy. can i have for a long time. i just carried fall off. i've not feeded the food. okay well just dry i haven't your fingers first. feeded a long time. well you did the i poured your, the water into your cup so it's christopher's turn to feed them. what about the box? well you don't need the box love cos the box's got some food in but the that's got the rest of it in. washing my hands. well it's okay about washing them, it's the dryness that matters. are they dry, your hands? yeah. yeah? go on then. no not too much. anyway i can't get too much really. you watch underneath tim, see if they come up to the top. yeah. are they coming? is that enough? i should think so. tiny bit more. go on then. just a little spot. that's lovely. is that going to come up? they come up? no. they did. well they're probably a bit shocked now cos they've got clean water. and their bridge is in the same place. not quite. yeah their bridge was there, yeah. was it? oh it doesn't matter. oh! good. that's that done. there's a er i just saw one eating food. yes it's gone up. is that eating the food or eating the weed? i don't know. i'm never sure if they eat this weed cos it doesn't look as if it's going anywhere. mum, can we watch ? can you watch what? the video? what do you want to watch? pardon? i haven't watched before. there isn't anything new, no. i haven't got round to videoing today cos i was out teaching this afternoon. what about the , the morning? er i was out at tesco's this morning. in fact i went to wave goodbye to grandma. i took her to the train. you'll never guess, when we got to the train station why? when we got to the train station, guess what erm grandma had to catch? what? a bus. why? because the trains weren't running. they're erm electrifying the line. you know they're putting up the electric lines mm. overhead? well, they've got to have a bus to get to barnet green i think. is that nearly finished? er no. i think it's nineteen ninety three before it opens. it's nineteen ninety two next year. yeah that's when i'm seven. er yes i suppose it will be. when you're seven. cos you'll be six this year won't you? yeah. and seven next year. when you're seven it'll be finished. that's a long time innit? no it's not very very long. no. be a while. it's not about and hundred and hundred weeks is it? actually it is. it'll be about ah ah. mummy. it's fifty two weeks, fifty two weeks in a year a hundred. is it a hundred a hundred and hundreds? oh. oh tim. the microphone. you just pulled it down, it's supposed to sit on there. mum. why have you have you got it on? well a man came earlier on today and he said please would we record conversations that we have all the time. so you don't have to touch it, you just have to talk to me and just leave it sitting there. it doesn't matter. why do you ? mummy. yes? mummy. mm. i how does it test you on the jumper? it just picks up your voice. you know like in church? you know when we go to church and you have a microphone on, and it makes your voice go round all the church? well it's a bit like that but instead of making it go round all the church it goes on to the tape. this? so it records. yes. there's there's a tape in my pocket look. where? in there. why do you have to let's have a look at it. we'll have a look at it later on. oh very, very tuneful tim. why do you have to have it why do you have to have it? because there are some people that want to listen to what we say in our house, and what we say to each other. and then they can think about language and how people use language. that's a funny sound. what about in france? well if you can in fr in france? no, it won't pick up our voices in france. but in france if they did the same thing they would be talking in french down their machine. hello. ooh, what a lovely tune. that's a funny one. mm. that's a funny one. it is a funny one. now it's five o'clock. what time do you think daddy is going to get home today? shall we guess? sixty one. sixty one. mm. that will be a funny time. why? there's no such time as sixty one. sixty one minutes. in sixty one minutes? that will be another hour and one minute, which will make it one minute past six. it's five o'clock at the moment and i don't know time he's coming. aren't we watching telly? cos he's supposed to come home early today but then he was in pontepool yesterday so he might not be. i want to watch the telly. you want to watch the telly. what do you want to watch on the telly? erm the new bone. think about bones again? oh! you like that one don't you? we keep having it. i'll tell you what, when i was in school yesterday i went into a classroom and there, hanging in a classroom, was a skeleton made out of cardboard. and all the children had made all the different bones and it was all hanging together. it looked really funny. hello. are you worrying? i am worrying. what's happened to my wife? why are you why are you worrying? she's gone to another planet. no no no. it's just a microphone dear. i've been having one of my little do's again with men on the doorstep. we have to record all our conversations for a week, okay? off and on. and then away they go to erm . i'll get you the letter dear so you can read it. . you can switch it off no. if you want to say anything too personal dear. &; 00010;just hold on. anyway, did you have a good shop? you what? mhm. what's all this about? what do you mean tut? don't you think it's fun? i told him you would think it was fun dear. did you ? you'll soon get used to it won't worry you . yes, it's the bones. the bones? mhm. it's finished. what's the bones? think about it's a science programme. mm. it's not finished. it's got bones on . erm are you ready for your tea dear? well tea's ready for you. high speed. high speed. a high speed. have we been on a high speed? we have been on a high speed, yeah. why is there a high speed on there? what is it? it's called the brunel experience. oh. do you know about this? no. remember that one? we've been across that one mummy. on our honeymoon. oh. i don't remember that. when? nineteen eighty five. fifteenth of er april. did we go across there? yes. oh of course cos we went on the train didn't we penzance. down to exeter. penzance. wherever that is. is it teatime? down to penzance. it is really teatime tim. we're just watching this cos daddy's excited. yeah. we have the problem. have we recorded this then? i don't know. oh i know what this is. this had started this morning before erm rosie and jim. mum. does daddy have one of these? no, only me. does he on one? yeah. just told him . why do you, why do you want one? well i don't particularly want one but it was just interesting. and if i didn't s what's this then? oh. oh that's the headphones if you want to listen back. mummy. yes timothy. i want you come up . have you not been to the toilet yet? no. oh right. come on then, i'll come with you . before i get the dinner out, and then when i come down it'll be dinner time. i'll just switch the oven off. what? i've just switched the oven off. no not all night. we sleep with them on don't we? ow! what did you do? hit your fingers on the door? yeah. here. i hurt myself on a big erm . you hurt yourself on a big stick? yeah cos ian gave me a prickly stick. ian gave you a prickly stick and you hurt yourself? yeah. oh that was silly. ian i don't suppose he thought it was prickly. he probably was k feeling kind because he thought he was giving you a nice stick. right, let's go and get this dinner out. but did erm ian hit us? did ian get pricked? did ian get pricked? i don't know. did ian get pricked tim? no. no. well he didn't get pricked just you . i expect he had a smooth stick for himself did he? yeah. ian what? ian had a smooth stick. i expect it was one of these walks you know, and ian found a stick and then he thought tim would like one. don't touch it tim. but how did he how did he not get pricked? tim? ho how did ian not get pricked? mm. when he picked the stick up you mean? mm. i don't know. perhaps he just picked it up in the right place. no, he didn't prick himself. who? ian didn't? no. he didn't prick himself. well i expect he just handed it to tim and tim picked it up thinking it was smooth. turned out turned out to be prickly. no what he what he did is and he go on. gave it to tim and tim holded it in the right he put it on the floor and ian pricked him. oh, could be. don't know. how many that's what sprouts can you cope with, two? no. none. none, you're joking, you've gotta have one. i'll just leave one on there. mhm. mhm. a tiny one . it is a tiny one. they're all pretty tiny. i wouldn't touch that if i were you cos it's very very hot. mm. taste alright? yeah. excuse me mister fingers. i didn't taste, i only tasted the bread. so the bread's alright. no the bread's oh good. not very hot. mummy. no the bread's not hot. is that too much for you tim? will that be okay? that's mine. you choose it. right, there you are then. where's my this is very hot tim, so don't touch whatever you do else you'll be crying. this is you now coming up. me? mm. where's the other plates? push by. er where's my other plate? in the washing up. these are big plate careful don't tip it off. carry it straight. a big one. bring this one. can i bring this one? mind your hands! can i bring this one and tim bring the next one? tim's got his own no i bring one and then tim brings one. no me bring this one. that's for daddy. and i bring the next. very very carefully. okay is that alright for you daddy? no no no tim there you go. got it. there. right. mum this needs some more in. i put your bib on tim? mum, this needs some more in. it does, but it'll do for now. i've been thinking it's needed some more in for the last few meals. yeah. that's enough. i've not even put any on yet. are you going to sit down properly please? tim. mum, could you put some on? legs in front of you, remember? no. no? could you put some on? standing up no no we don't stand up t to have our dinner do we mum? oh no. oh no. yes we do. we don't. can you sit down properly please. mummy, when are we starting? we're starting now so could you sit down on your on your bottom. but we can't start until he's s he's sitting. will we start after prayer when we did? no, i want you sitting down now before we begin. come on. why? well why do you think? cos he might sit down in the middle yeah. of the prayer. right, are you gonna say thankyou? amen. amen. good grief. and what's the serviette for? nothing. for nothing? this family's falling to pieces. who's falling to pieces? the family. why? no we're not really. it's the end of the week? yeah. so, how's your day been then? have you caught up with everything? no. absolutely ridiculous. dad, i had a sweet today at at school. but julie was saying how desperately . dad i had a sweet yeah he had you had a sweet at school? did you? yeah do you know why? why did you have a sweet at school? because ? i don't know. i wasn't there. it was someone's birthday wasn't it? what was that lady ? julie? mm. she's been with you, hasn't she? in school all day. or mm. whenever. is she a student? for the week. don't know what she is actually, she's sort of attached. she's been for the week mm. and today she's gone home. mm. maybe she's gonna be erm you know like erm community she's going to be a nurse. community service or something. she's going to be a nurse. is she? on one of these schemes. you know these schemes? she's going to be a nurse is she? mm. in a hospital? oh is she? gonna be a nurse in a hospital? oh well well then. so what was she doing with you then? not but she well she learned she's not going to. no. she'll be going soon, perhaps. mm. well it's going to be ages yet. and meanwhile sh yeah, meanwhile she's got to do something. is she actually in your class? this week then all the time? mm. helping mrs ? mm. but who wasn't there today? mrs . wasn't she? why not? we had a different teacher today. did you? who was it today? pardon? mrs . it is our back door yeah. it's been banging all day because i can't be bothered to go out there and shut it. aren't i hopeless? waking them up? come on, if they're asleep during the day they ought to be woken up. do you want to go out there and do it then, now? if you want to. oh! okay, i'm guilty. i'm . i'm guilty. mum mine's not hot. actually mine's not too bad either. what's daddy doing? he's gone to shut the back gate cos mummy couldn't be bothered. she should have done it ages ago. it keeps banging in the wind. mm, it was very windy today. mm. wasn't it? were you out in the playground in the wind? yeah. actually it started to rain and when we had just got in the then we had to get out again. cos it was alright. it was a bit windy. it's very windy today isn't it? it's rainy. yeah, it is a bit of rain. much. today. just a little bit. just a little bit. i didn't very much. i remember it going spot spot spot. but when we were in it was raining very hard. we saw loads and loads of there was a rainbow today. did you see the rainbow? no. oh. i saw a rainbow today. did you? yeah. mm. where was it? . certainly in redditch anyway. mm. i saw it that way towards . oh. but the one i saw was about half past two. mm. i must have missed the one that you saw. two erm you get them all in different places? where were we seed a mm. you can get rainbows in different places. it depends where you are. a rainbow with ann. you saw a rainbow with ann? that would be the same rainbow as i saw i think. today? have you seen ann today tim? mm. guess what i've been doing today? what have you been doing today? i've been teaching. you've been teaching as well, really? mm. all day, or part of the day? just half a day. really? well this a this afternoon? she was being a teacher. yeah. oh. so what happened to you tim then, if mummy was teaching? i was remember what we said ann ann ann. did mummy take you to school? no. ann ann ann, what we was talking about, ann. you were at ann's house? and play with martin? and and ian. and ian. apparently he had a had a bit of a do didn't you, together? did you keep hitting each other or something? no. oh. what happened with the postman pat and the what was it, postman pat and fireman sam or something? yeah. and you didn't get on very well did you? didn't you? no. don't want ann said they kept both wanting the same thing at the same time. a bit traumatic i think. probably two afternoons in one week was a little bit too much. mm. well miss rang me up about twenty to nine and said could i come in for the day and i said you've had it for the day though consider the afternoon. so it was because mrs was ill was it? no. oh. i wasn't in his class. it, that's why she was panicking i think because she'd got mrs off and she'd got june off. really? oh. mm. both off sick or? mm. so i think because i'd done her class once before she thought i'll her in again. apparently she's been off all week. really? mm. oh. who? june . which is interesting because i think i saw her on wednesday night. oh no, it was the week, a week last wednesday wasn't it? mm. mm. yeah it was quite nice in her classroom today because i do you. yeah? four of the erm i'll eat it when you eat it. that's right. you eat yours and i eat mine. four of the problems had erm disappeared off with mrs . i can do one, two, three i'm ready to eat another bit. well look at that mummy. look at mummy's plate. mm. who's the winner? my mummy. have a look at mummy's plate. so mummy can't have you won't finish first on pudding. you what? you won't finish first on pudding. i won't finish first on pudding? i might do. you won't cos i'll be first. not you miss me. i saw you had a drink of water. and tim has been to nursery today. you went to holly cottage did you? oh and i got a letter. and you got a letter? oh you wrote to erm yeah. gwen didn't you? yeah and gwen and she's written to you has she? mm. and? mum. the letter's just there mummy. yeah. i saw the letter that you wrote. you said thank you very much for the duck's egg. or something like that, did you? yeah. because he had it for breakfast. i don't know, you read it. what did it say? it said it said you'll have to read it to daddy after tea. it said ah that's right. she said you're gonna ask the duck or something to lay another egg for you. is this one of the ducks at the place? yeah. she's got three ducks and a drake apparently. what's a drake? a male duck. you know like there's mummies and daddies, ladies and gentlemen? well ducks and drakes are just the same. drakes are the gentlemen. so there's no babies? not at holly cottage, no. how often do ducks lay eggs? good question. don't know. apparently they're laying profusely at the moment. oh. have you seen them laying eggs, the ducks yeah. at the cottage? but they haven't had any success with ducklings. come on, let's fight. right. we got a painting today. oh. and i bring my work home cos it's finished. you finished your work tim? well done. yes we haven't him that have we? what's in it? counting things is it? mum, i have lots and lots of books don't i? you have lots and lots of books? at school. oh yes. at school you do. and tim has one book at nursery don't you? and a work book. one at a time? is everyone else hello. what? it's not at nursery any more. it's at home isn't it? because you finished it. what happens if you get there's a new one. you've got a new one now at nursery? mm. cos we've got the old one at home haven't we? mm. get it. didn't get it. what happens if he runs out of numbers? who runs out of numbers? how many . i wonder if he forgets what number he on? i don't think it matters, does it? what book you mean? mm. don't think it matters. it's not like your books where come on. i've finished mine. you it's not like your maths books where you have one two three four five six seven and so on. she just makes it up as she goes along. what am i supposed to do? no, mind my drink. she draws him pictures. mind. mummy. what happens if she runs out of books. i've finished my tea. oh she won't run out of books, cos she'll make some new ones. she makes her own. there is a little bit more. yeah, i don't want any more . there's a little bit more to eat dad, if you're interested. no, full thank you. right. children? no no? good gracious. i only don't want any carrots. oh alright then. tim? do you want some more? no no what, love? no carrots and no . no carrots and no tomato. i'll try that and see what, oh i can't do it like that. no carrots please. it's hardly worth it. oh. a carrot. no carrots please. i've done me best. mm. how's that? a tiny bit more. you've had the 'mato. well i'm sorry. it's a bit difficult to get the tomato out cos it's all chopped in with the mince you see. i'll have the tomato. i'm sorry it's not cordon bleu dear like you've been having at pontepool. it took hours to at pontepool. hour? why, what happened? well i seem to recall that we were in the place tea. i don't think so. do you do exercises every day? mm. you do. you're keeping them up no we haven't. well we did it last night till about ten o'clock. i've been doing it. mummy. i was very good at it wasn't i last night, don't you think? yes, yes. mummy. mm? want to do after tea. well, we're not supposed to do exercises after we've just had our tea so we'll see . so we'll see how things go . oh well we haven't done it since . since who was here? we have. oh perhaps you haven't. perhaps we haven't. dad. yes. it's too much. is it? anyway, you were telling me about meals. meals? mm. what ? at pontepool. taking a long time. oh well it was just this er meal we went out to in the evening. bar hotel restaurant across the road. . which basically means yeah they can't afford a tablecloth or whatever. mum. what's supposed to be so attractive about it i don't know. i was really. i mean it's you know that means a cafe a place without er tablecloths. it's like that place with that cow pie. i thought that was the most boring meal i . yeah. trying to be totally different and failing miserably. yeah. anyway, go on. i prefer tablecloths to . did it take a long time? yeah cos we ordered when it was . about an hour later it arrived but we were standing at the bar when we had er ordered it. but that was, we were standing there for about an hour i should think it was. and eventually they told us to go upstairs and sit down at the table. so we did and eventually . was it any good? when it came? it was quite nice actually. yes it was. yes it was very tasty. but rather expensive and this wasn't the hotel or anything. well obviously it was a restaurant. this wasn't the hotel, the hotel was very posh yes. oh. presumably felt they couldn't afford couldn't afford a hotel meal. what do you fancy dear? erm some oh! that's tim's. some i don't want that. what don't you want? that. what? oh tim! don't. oh tim tim tim. no i don't want it. what don't you want? the fruit? i don't no. well you'll have to have some fruit. i'm sorry. just have a little bit of fruit. no. you can have a cherry with it. he doesn't want cherries. last time we had a i remember having a row about this before. oh. it's too much of that. it isn't too much at all. mum. it is. do you know what my . now daddy, what do you want on this? i would like some it's too much . well just keep quiet and we'll talk about it in a minute. yogurt please. i need i need mum. guess what? yeah. next to mine. then he had three. and then he gave one back to me. did he? lucky you. ooh. nice. thank you. i said thank you. did you? right christopher. you're er just happy to have anything are you? it's too much. you haven't got anything in there yet tim. just hold on. i want . do you want another cherry daddy as erm? do you want a cherry or not? no. will you be wanting a cherry? no. no. i didn't think so. right. i want a cherry. you've got loads of cherries, don't worry. i've got three cherries. so's christopher. three cherries! i didn't never have now then. ice-cream or yogurt christopher? it's too much. ice-cream or yogurt dear? too much. just a minute. we're not ready yet for you. yogurt. pardon? yogurt mummy it's too much. finished that. i know. it's too much. i want to have an an ice-cream. i want to have an ice-cream. now listen, to have yogurt and ice-cream you have to have some fruit okay. and what's more it's too much. and what's more you have to have more than that tim. look. i've put some banana in for you. there. take one of those away. take one of these away. that one there? yeah . right. is that alright now? are you happy with that? yeah. ice-cream. ice-cream. ice-cream with that. ooh ho ho ho ho. i want that. ho ho ho ho ho ho. there you go. satisfied?all that fuss for. yeah. for mummy. remember. it's tea. it's tea is it? yeah cos tea we have just had. this is tea though. right. had tea. the pudding that's still the tea isn't it mum? well it's all called tea really. you have a first course and a second course and could call it all i don't know what you call it really, i never do know what to call it all. toast, just toast instead of calling it . no. it's a bit like that, the same with porridge isn't it? it's called that but eating breakfast. that's confusing. right. right. we'll sit down and eat soon. yes. ah. well what did you get up to this morning in your few minutes of freedom? or was it very hectic ? well it was a bit hectic cos of having this phone call to say i've got to teach in the afternoon. i thought i'd better do all my jobs which i thought was going to be spread across the d the day. so i went to tesco's first thing straight back from the nursery and guess what i forgot to do? take me list with me take your money. no i'd got me money, but not the list. so you did it from memory? mm. and anything might happen. feel sick. i checked it off when i got back and it's not too bad. forgot about three or four things . what's that? what's that? the juice. the juice. and then? and then, after i'd gone round to tesco's i went to see to collect grandma to take her to the train. which wasn't a train, it was a bus. was that alright? . she got on the bus alright? mm. there was one mum, is she going away? mm. she's going to manchester. oh. to see irene. do you remember irene? sunday. mm. she'll still be in manchester. yeah, we won't see her on sunday. mm. mm. it'll be funny won't it? was she mea were we meant to go to her house? yes, we were. so next time we have to stay at her house again? i don't know . what? we haven't really decided that but yes, i suppose we could. yeah grandma's house. you think we'll go to grandma's house? because we miss it. mm. mm. did miss it. we'll see what she says when she comes back. anyway, arrived at the station and there was this great coach standing there waiting to take them all to . it was blocking the whole of the car park. so this car that was trying to get out was sitting there waiting and there was no driver in sight and people were rushing about all over the station trying to find the driver . anyway it didn't worry us cos we were behind the coach. but i did feel sorry for the man who was trying to get out cos he must have been in there for ages. i suppose they thought that there wouldn't be anybody trying to get out cos the train mm. wasn't due out. so i just left her getting on the bus. i didn't sort of wait till the bus had gone or anything. i finally managed to get a a card for the wedding in tesco's. you know, i sent them a card, mark and trish. have you? oh. who, mark and? mark and trish. you know grandma's going to go to a wedding when she goes away? that's why she's gone away. why do you have to go away? well that's where the wedding is. the wedding's in manchester. how would you get to the station? to catch a train. beg your pardon? when you get to the station to catch a train. when you get to the station to catch the train? what do you mean? mummy. mm. if you're going to catch a train or a grandma went to the station to catch a train to get to birmingham. yeah? and then she got another train in birmingham. except she didn't get a train to birmingham, she got a bus. well, she got a bus to barn green and a train at barn green to birmingham. christopher knew earlier on that erm he was gonna be seven when the electrification was finished. really? did you, i mean, discuss this before? no. oh. no. well he will be won't he? due for completion in may ninety three. oh may ninety three. so he'll be six then. . yes, he'll still be six won't he? nearly seven. he'll be six. mm. i thought that was very er i suppose he said in two years, so five and two is seven. probably. go on, which is ? the one on the left. well, my left. yeah. were there any electrification trains there this time, or what? oh i don't know, didn't look. didn't look. i was so busy looking at the coach. was there last week. . actually it was a train oh. diesel train diesel locomotives. coach . people standing on the roof of the coaches putting wires. oh! is that how they do it then? yeah. they stand on the coaches? they take the roof, they get some old coaches they take the roof off and put a new sort of flat board and you can climb up the outside. so you're standing on the roof of coaches. . it's about the right height to er well the overhead lines. he said they had the wires all streaming down the platform so they had to wire up, close off the platform . dad, i want to . dad you dad. i want to get you ready for bed early tonight. do you know what's going to happen tonight? what? mummy and daddy are gonna go out. and ellie's going to be here. so she'll put you to bed. yeah. remember ellie? yeah. eleanor. i think when you see ellie what? when you see her you'll know her. we teddy bears i'll get you all ready for bed. and she'll mm. i expect you'll ready. you'll probably just about be in bed. she'll play with you for a bit. mm. i expect tim will be in bed won't he? just about. well. she'll come in at seven. yeah. so she can play with them for a little bit. so they will be all ready so oh yes. they will be all ready. that, dad. and we're gonna there's no letter in here. it's an old empty envelope. there's no letter. i'm gonna get letter cos i who who's the letter for? can you see who it's for? that's right. can you see what it says? it says mister christopher what's he doing? . is it on the floor somewhere? no. on the settee. you had it on the settee a bit ago. on the floor under the settee? don't know. oh. well done. that looks like it. let's see . very posh paper. it is. ooh. is it the picture of school pa oh yes. holly cottage . now what does it say? read it to me. dear , thank you for mummy. mummy . don't know why you were shouting at me . i gone say that. what? that i like you . do you think they will? i hope she can talk duck language. quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack. talk to ducks. she won't really. i think she's just pretending. mum, can you talk to ducks? well you can try. do you have to talk duck language. well i always i always try quacking at ducks and they seem to quack back. if i know what they're saying. i can juggling. you're juggling? you are an ass. see. i caught it in the other hand. mm. look watch. i've thrown it over and catch it in the other hand. brilliant. now you need to do it with two. there's another one on the floor down there. juggling. that's like juggling like juggling. this will be interesting, see whether he can do it. go on. whoa, missed. i nearly did it . nearly. oh dear. oh. can't do juggling. both of them went. what are we living in dear? nearly got it. i got one. a madhouse. silly jobby jobby jilly i nearly got it mum. i think we need a clo oh there's some more fruit here. does anybody want any of this? yes yes yes yippee yippee yes. well just sit yourself down. yes. daddy? no. i'm full thanks. can i have some frozen yogurt with it? well you could if there was any. but is there any? no. can i have some ice-cream then? er you can do if there is any. would you like to pass your bowl over oh please. tim are you wanting any fruit? there you are. it's empty. are you wanting any fruit? tim? no. are you sure? mm. it's empty. you can't have any more. you can't allowed any more. empty. no i can't have any more. ah ah only ice-cream. is there any ice-cream please? people do have some the same ice-cream. same one? it's the same ice-cream that we had before, yeah. at least it would be if i could get into it. that's funny. your one's empty. it's beginning to melt. melt? mhm. mummy i want a tiny bit more please. do you want some? mm. i just have a bit more. i don't think so, i think you've had enough really. i no i haven't had enough . look. you had loads the first time round. a lot please. that's a lot. pop goes christopher and tim no . no. we're not gonna go pop. you might. eating all that ice-cream. we won't. you might. like pop goes the weasel. make it into coloured juice. look mum all mushy it turns into cream. cos if you didn't have mm mm. i'm making cream mum. mummy mummy i'm making cream. ugh it's slimy. there. are we supposed to take anything for this do tonight? like what? well i don't know really. dunno. suppose a notebook might come in useful to jot anything down or whatever. well why do you have to go mummy? well it's a course that erm alan's there's a what love? a piece of paper that they give you which tells us what . and where is that paper? have you got it? no idea where it is, do you? it's in the drawer, down there. mm. did it tell us what we were doing then? well it told you what the subject titles were. oh did it? i didn't know that. what are they? i dunno. find this paper oh dear. don't feel very organized for it, do you? i feel awfully shattered cos and me. i feel dad . daddy. tomorrow . will you? will you? yes. yes dear? i'm i'm having are you? look. it is tomorrow isn't it daddy? i'm not, we do normally have porridge for breakfast. on saturdays. i i'm having . friday, saturday. today's friday and it's saturday tomorrow. so we ha ha porridge today, no. i'm not or we can have in the morning. porridge please. what now? could you go and get the porridge please. yeah okay. go on then. here it is. don't!porridge. here you are. you can't cope? do you need a rest? i can't cope. do you want to go and shimmy off while i get them ready for bed? no. i'll cope with the washing up. that would be a sort of job. just don't make yourself sick. tonight we'll just have to er explain what there was that went on. but it'll be different won't it? i mean somebody's talking to you about something different. i've got a good idea, i'm gonna mummy. so long as what? you're awake. i tell you what, i don't want a two hour lecture. is it going to be a two hour lecture? i don't know. don't know what the format is. oy! stop. well it won't be will it? because there will be pardon? tim, please stop cos i can't hear daddy think let alone hear him talk. i think this meal is finished, do you? ellie? ever done anything like this before? she's done old telephone number. she said she'd the family. yeah, there's four of them, so mum, see if i get it right. did i get it right mummy? no. you missed. i think you're throwing it too high, that's your trouble. what age did you use to babysit? i did it mum . i did a juggle. fourteen. and how old is she i did a juggle mum. fourteen. fourteen? i can do it mum. what's the legal minimum age ? look i can do it. mummy, look. i can do juggling. i can juggle with two. watch mum.. is that a problem then? dunno. don't know. i don't know legal . she's gonna if there's any trouble won't she? yeah. watch my juggling mum. as long as she knows what to do well, that's what we'll tell her to do.. watch my juggling. and we'll give her a phone number. mummy! yeah. watch my juggling. i'm watching. wonderful. it's tomorrow so that's okay. what these two? yeah. no. this noisy. no. what? see my hands? see my hands? i've seen those hands. i need to do it short. see my hands again. no the back one's messy. that's it. well there's still some dirt there look. i can do it. i can do it . i can do juggling. see, did you see that? yeah, watch. i don't . i can do it better. i can do it better. i do it small but mummy. yeah? did it. mum i can juggle it look that's not food. isn't it? what's that then? that's a spot. spot. food. mm. dry your face then cos your face is a mess. mummy ca mum, have you got any balls? yes i have. where? but none that you can juggle with inside here. why? because balls are for outside. i think you need to go to the toilet the way you're jiggling around. go to the toilet. i don't need to. yeah you could make balls with newspaper if you wanted. mhm. or i can get some paper and put it over but these need folding up and putting away. what i need to . surprise surprise. good gracious . right, one pair of pyjamas for you. me. right, who's gonna get ready first then? mum. well tim's half ready. i'm doing half. whoops a daisy. are you alright? i nearly fell off my bed. i think you did fall off your bed. get my socks off. can you get your socks off? . oh look at these patches. they're coming off already. tut oh that's that's because, guess what's been happening? go on? chris has been pulling them. oh he's not! he has. would you tell him that i've carefully s did those on. and i don't want them pulled off thank you very much, tell him. he doesn't he always says anyway. because if he if he pulls those off, there's gonna be a hole underneath there, and then we're gonna have holy trousers again. and guess what he's he did? what? he said can i pull it open? i said no. and what did you say? yeah. no. oh i'm gonna get stuck. was this during story time or something? what? was this during story time or something? no erm first became he came over to me and started to well please tell him that your mummy says please would you not do that again. cos i know it's bad bad enough having patches let alone having somebody pull them off. mum. mm. you're doing well there tim. i'm not. i think you are. you've done most of the buttons. shall i do your top one for you? one of the, my buttons is do your buttons first. oop i've already d undone that. . right, who's going to put their pyjamas on now? me. first. i'm gonna get i don't really need to take my vest off. do you think it's going to be a cold night tonight or a hot night? no i keep my vest on. alright, you keep it on. i'm not. what? you want yours off? think i'm gonna win. what about me? oh no! i'm gonna win. think we've both gonna win. can't find the trousers. well i can't find tim's trousers at all. there you are. tim's found his trousers well you try and get those on while i just put these on the right way round. i should sit down to the job tim and you won't fall over. that's good. and the other one in. help. you're trying to put them in the same leg darling. try again. there you are. whoops. me. think i'm gonna win. do your teeth next. think i'm gonna win. you've got more teeth than christopher at the moment haven't you? that's mine! ah, can't you get him his toothbrush you rotten thing? you're a bit mingy. . ooh. that's a bit mingy. how are you doing tim? come and see. right. whoops, in the dark. put the light on. has anybody had a wash? what? mum has anybody had a wash? yeah. well you look a bit mucky. i have. was it a wash without any water? i'll give you a quickie round the face. there you go. oh, oh. whoops. we're gonna catch water. just wait a minute . well i've got to make you look respectable for going to bed with, haven't i? who knows what you might meet in the night. breakfast. there you go. what about you? what do you look like? are we going to have breakfast in the morning? breakfast in the morning, yes. breakfast ah, no. boiling hot. ooh. is it boiling hot? no, it's just kind of warmish. have you been to the toilet? yes no yes no yes no, no? come here. this is called a towel. we dry ourselves on a towel. that's done it now. right. done it now. i jump over you. no. i'm going to. i play play a game of jump over. no. you can jump over . and when you've jumped over me, i jump over you and then you jump over me run you over. no you won't. i got i'm gonna run you over on your mummy, he's gonna run me over. i don't think he will. he will. he's just pretending. he's trying to and i'll go down ready to move. make sure everything's okay. and off we go. other way. you go backwards and i'll go forwards. you get up and follow. you get below and make sure everything's alright. aeroplane's coming down. an aeroplane's coming down the stairs? come on then. i'm carrying the aeroplane. listen i don't think that's too good an idea cos of the duvet. i think you'll be going to bed in that soon and if you mess it up then you'll never sleep. come on, it's all very well in the mornings but not now i don't think. why isn't it very well in the night? but why can't we play it in the bedroom? because when you get into bed it will be all out. cos i have to erm change your sheets and things. why can't we play it in the ? because if you start messing your duvet up at night times it means that you don't want to sleep underneath it cos it goes all scrunchy and horrible, and all the duvet bit comes out of the cover. mummy . what's duvet bit? it's not a good idea. oop, here comes ellie now. who's that? it's ellie. yes, it's ellie. with ellie. right. i just heard his voice. hope he's not a milk men. are you going to let them in, whoever they are? hello! is it ellie? it is ellie. it's me. come in ellie. hello. . mum said she'll be down about ten past. that's okay. we've got to go and collect dianne as well. by the way hello. dianne rang up just now, you've got to go erm and collect her please cos er barry's not gonna come home till half seven. he's gonna come in the car and she doesn't fancy walking in the night. have you got all that? he's gonna run me over mummy. he's gonna ru you can't touch me can you cos of my wires. mummy. yes? where's your tape? it's all in there. don't worry. when can i listen to it? mm. please. one day you can. mum why are they round? you what? why are they just let's think what we're doing first. let's tell ellie what she's gotta do and what she's not gonna do. basically they go to bed about half seven, if you're lucky. well you know . and erm they've done their teeth and they've had a wash and they've done everything really so all you've got to do is get them in there. they usually they usually have a prayer before they go to sleep, right? they usually do one and you do one as well. and then and then erm, what happens then? that's it then. a story. oh the stories. i forgot about stories. we have the stories first usually before you and they're allowed two stories each and if they have any more then it's up to you. . but they choose their own stories so you and if you, it looks like it's going to be an exceedingly long story you can well we can start . yeah, we can get started on that anyway, sort of thing before we erm should the house go up in smoke, theresa across the road run to her otherwise if erm if you desperately need us sort of thing if you ring the vicarage and then you can erm alison or somebody will probably be in and come round for you what? have i been breaking that? probably. i didn't mean to. it just sort of happened. i know where i'm gonna put it. where are you gonna put it? where you can't have it. where? i don't know. is it a secret? are you putting more ? yeah. it's broken. it's in the dump. okay, there's your emergency phone number if you're desperate. as long as there's somebody in . where shall i put it? stick it up here. television works as it works. coffee pot works as it works. help yourself to the books and everything else as you like, yeah, in case you get bored. oh that's nice. just do your own thing. right. it's dirty. dirty? yeah. what's it gonna do? it's gonna have a bath is it? yeah. a bath. bath. it's in the bath. is it clean yet? mum, this won't work. what won't work? oh no! no? no water. mum this keeps going no water? well there's probably something catching on it. what? there's probably something catching on it. there's still no water there is there? yes. here. right, what did i need to take with me? bible. andy can you bring my bible downstairs. the blue one near the bed. you can't get it now. you can't get it in there. you can't get it. you can't get it i can if i . oh no you can't. i'm gonna hide it. where are you going to hide it? somewhere you can't have it. figures. oh. and you can't get it. you can't get it over there. i might be able to. mum can i try and make a different . yeah. no you can't get it under the table. i should go and get the other box and then you've got all the other bits and pieces as well. where is the box? near the window. mm i don't know about that. which window? oh one where the toys are. don't pu don't put it under there then. think i'm gonna make a space. no it probably wouldn't fit under there anyway . watch. go under. go on then. then i go out and make a space. i think they're gonna be perfectly happy there. i shouldn't worry about stories and stuff. i think they will just get on and get themselves she can just lay the law down. cos it won't matter if they're not in bed till late will it, tonight? mm. thing is we could do with a lie in in the morning. what else do we need? look, have you seen that. been having fun? i've got a tooth missing now. ooh. haven't i? you have. tell her again cos she weren't listening. look, i've got a tooth missing. oh. and that's got a picture. that's me. did you get some money from the tooth fairy? that's me there. can you see . it's good this isn't it? you can do it, you don't have to do it in a great long line, you can do it in a sort of cube or something. . or there's another thing you can mum we're trying to make that. we're trying to make a house. oh right. yeah that'd be good that cos i i think i've only ever made that once and it was sort of a bit peculiar when you make it. yeah. but anyway you can make it we're gonna make it a mess. cos that one's got one on. oh no. i don't think i got that on the top like that. we don't make it all a mess. yes you would. did i? you making a mess? that's it, take it all apart. i can make a mess. just a gentle sort of mess . you know what i mean? tim's idea of a mess is to put his hands in it and got shooooo with it on the way. so we can clear it up after. pop. yeah look that that's a good idea look. you don't lose any pieces. i gonna put this in there. that's it. put it all in one bi big pile. oh! not a good idea. no, cos you'll lose them. then you won't be able to play with them will you? oh look. look at that. now we need to turn it round. erm i'd better get you biscuits and coffee and stuff like that out hadn't i, to ply you with? don't you keep away. mighty cute. tim, can i put this on you before we go. now to go on here. tim, just come with me up to the toilet for a minute. oh. you gonna leave that down here? just leave that, cos she'll save it for you. we need that. we need that. i'll save it. well no, ellie could oh, he's taking it with him. we need it mummy. do you need to wee at all, tim? no. right well just lie down here so we can put your nappy on before we go to bed. well done. come here. you alright? hello. you're all ready for bed. so far so good. we've got to pick up diana as well. have we? on our on our travels. i thought you were going out. it's alright. well, i am nearly. you are in a minute. she seems alright i think. look. oh is that what you've made? he made that. i suppose? yeah. made a oh that's good. it's going round the wrong way. oh. wee wee wee. oh, clever stuff eh? it's alright isn't it? yeah. i know. think it was with a bit of ellie's assistance that it got made like that. christopher's very good at doing the flat ones but not so good at the three d ones. mm. right then. right. we're all ready for off? see you later then. bye. bye. have a nice time. yeah we're supposed to be back sort of, well we don't know do we really? half nine it finishes so we're supposed to be back by tennish i should think by the time we're finished. tennish won't it? i i've got sue round at our house, so oh have you? with martin? she's there, yeah. i mean martin will probably er ignore her. ignore her and er pop next door and i mean i don't mind him popping out as long as he's yeah. gone to their house and stays there. mm. yeah. so er is this the new neighbours? yeah. yeah they er oh that's nice isn't it? yeah, i i i don't know them that well yet you know, i haven't got too martin does. haven't got chatting yet but martin's got in there and i know them as well. i know some from my school. he's got in there. mm. oh. right. night night boys. right then we'll see you. night night. do you want a kiss? do you want a kiss tim? oh ooh i never night night. i never gave martin a kiss. ah! does he like it? he still likes a kiss . does he? ah. oh yes. no no not yuk this one this one's not so bothered. she er she sort of pushes, pushes me away now. i've already given him one actually. right. there we are. she pushes me away now she does look. oh! he wiped it off . tira then. i wiped it special. bye. you did. alright then? no, you don't want another one from me do you? night night. have a nice time. you ? yeah, it was nice. oh look, the moon. oh, you gonna wave us off? right. have i got my keys? yes. allow me madam. of course. right, i'm in. thanks. ooh all aboard. who put down the side down there look? oh no, it's . what's he doing look ? looks like a . oh they look happy enough . you mean the children? yeah. oh yes, i think they will poor old ellie . if erm oh yes i forgot about ellie not looking happy . why didn't you want to buy the same one again mum? well i just kind of was running round the shop because i was you got the first one you could see. i had to go and collect grandma you see to take her to the station, and i didn't have an awful lot of time so i just sort of ran round and collected whatever i got. cos we wouldn't have wanted grandma to miss her train would we? if we did? no, bus. what, miss the train? no bus? she'd have to get the next one. she had to go on a bus actually. get the train . cos they don't have trains from redditch mummy. do you know why? mm? pass the marge. they only had them from daddy's got the marge. from bar green can i have the marge? yes. is that is that what a mess. after erm it's between redditch and mulbridge no, between redditch and birmingham. yes. between redditch and birmingham. mm our daffodils are coming out nicely. they are. i hope the wind doesn't blow them over. be a pity. there's at least one blown over there isn't there? oh where? oh yeah. where? we'll have to go and collect it, put it in a vase on the side. where's one blown over? there look. a new one? mm. mm. it's so windy at the moment. march winds. the others seem to have stood up quite well over on the other side. where? where? one of them's dead. which one's dead? the one which is f pointed erm straight ahead. mm. see what you mean. it's a bit dead. it is. looks as if it and the wind's got it again. mum, it's not very nice when the wind hits it is it mum? no. still, we can always pick them and bring them inside. i remember doing that once. i remember finding one and putting the vase on there. mm. so where is it now? it will be dead by now. you're talking about last year aren't you? last year's flowers aren't around now. here you are. right. thank you. these are the same bulbs though that have made a new flower this year. where's the marmalade? i took a bit. why they keep on making new bulbs? they do it, well they do it every year. can i have some marmalade please? ah. the daffodils over there in that little bed seem to be a bit later than all the others, i don't know. have some marmalade. have some marmalade. i'm doing it a funny way this time. i'd of thought they would have got just as much sun and rain as everything else. that's a little one. mum. look what i've done. marmite. mm. very posh. candles. do you usually do that? if you ask mummy she'll what do you want me to do? i didn't make that. oh good. what do you want? do you want some er marmite on it? you did. mm. gone a funny shape. daddy hasn't seen the new rosie and jim. true. lot of things daddy hasn't seen. i know. inspector morse. i know. few weeks before we have time have you got sp lots of spare tapes? no. . we'll have to have another one next wednesday. are they on every week or are they once a fortnight? i'm not sure actually. and you haven't seen the the puppet show. i haven't seen one about a puppet show. is that where mm. rosie and jim mm rosie and jim went to a puppet show did they? they go to stratford. yeah a a a and a lion. stratford? do they? and there's a lion is there? and a and a lion . he took an omelette. omelette. an omelette? it was quite good actually. and a man came back and . oh. and skinlid went back. pardon? skinlid. the skin? well he's called skinlid. is he? i don't know. i didn't watch it that closely. have some more tea. ate it all up. mhm. so if it's a puppet show did rosie and jim do some puppeting?puppet. no. they were in the audience shouting and cheering from what i saw. where they? mhm. then they went round the back though didn't they? did they ? mm. they run round the back and played with the puppets. when the show was ended nobody mentioned that they were puppets themselves. that's what i call a miracle. i do that. i don't think they like it. mm. it was nice to see stratford. i wonder if that they filmed that at the time when the boat was in stratford. do you remember when we went to yeah. yeah. we nearly went to see it but we missed. yeah. cos it had moved by the time we got there. so it might be then they might have taped it? mm. it could well have been. but mum it's a bit late from that. well it's always takes a long time. they they do these things months beforehand. and then it comes on the television later on. how to get to know about these things. mm. this chap we were sitting next to involved in all these canal projects . oh yes, that's right. he was. apparently he's a director of various canal preservation bodies and things. oh. he was certainly into canals in a big way. yeah. yeah he is. mm. you'll have to get to know i is he in your ? no, he's at solihull . oh solihull. what was he called? jonathan. jonathan. he was a pleasant chap i thought. oh yes. as these chaps go. it was interesting discussing various chaps after oh right. only just sort of see them occasionally to get the inside stories to . have drunk . mm. how's julia? she was okay this week. well, she's a totally snowed under well, it's not with work. surprising. like i had to give her some top priorities yesterday as she wasn't going to be about. actually she did very well on one of those . she did far better did you tell her? oh yes. yes. well i made sure my boss told her, that's . cos he was desperate for cos he needed an answer for monday morning for dave. it's going to be thinking about science. dave's erm wife produced a baby last week oh. so he's having a week off you know to change nappies or whatever. it might be or it might not. mum, is the video on? i just, i only pressed hold nothing else. well you're not to well since someone else switched it off i should think. why? i'm not quite sure what happens you see. that's why i just pressed but cos there's a little line. hear the sound of the video. when? well i can hear it now. oh. yeah i'm wondering whether it's playing to itself, with the television off. do you think that's likely? or does it not do it? no, cos it's not got the aerial it would do. it would do. would it? oh dear. it's not got the aerial in. no. shouldn't it is it's on it's on the video. it's just that i can actually hear it. i can actually hear the motor on oh. on turning round it's on the video. i presume what happens when it's not on it's all geared up ready to mummy. daddy . it's on the video. what's on the video? telly. yeah. yeah when er all which is on now is the blue button. right. it's the blue the blue button's on but nothing else. right. the blue button's okay. where are you going to? cloth. right. mum, why aren't you gonna put your microphone on. well it might as well stay there. why? well it can hear us all then. no that noise daddy yes. what was that? isn't that it's that. ah but that wasn't on before was it? cos mummy only just come down for breakfast. no, just remembered and rushed off and ge to get it. but it's true, it does make a noise. there's lots of noises, lots of electrical things. see me. the fridge made some really weird noises yesterday. i thought oh what's going on. can you see me now. can i see you? oh was it vibrating? there's a little bit more just there. yeah. it does. it a load or is it knocking on something? oh. on the top. as you know there's a lot of stuff on the top . in other words mummy, clean your fridge. that's it. right. hands now. all clean. let me have a look. that's that's not bad. the the fridge is a bit other one. that looks a bit sticky that one, at the back, does it? one. no? no. look tim, we'll have to wind it soon, daddy can work the new one. you're going to watch rosie and jim dear. am i? i'm supposed to wash up aren't i? that's alright. i'll wash up. no you mm? mummy wash up. yes. what am i going to do? and you watch me watch rosie and jim? yeah cos you made the breakfast. that's true, i did make the breakfast. did you like the breakfast? come on. right. i haven't got my glasses. i won't be able to see it. oh. it's pc pinkerton anyway, it's not even rosie and jim. no but that's why i said wind it back. oh. well wind it back ten minutes. can you do that, do you know how to do that? no. you watch well i can't now it's too late . come on dad. yes. right. i'm gonna get your glasses or no no no no tim. don't you touch my glasses. please. please. something weird is happening there. i know that's mummy wash up. how are you anyway? tired. how are you? tired, yeah. that figures. you looked a bit gormless last night. we all looked so over i nearly i'm lacking indoors, i'm very lacking indoors i nearly lay down last night but i knew i just wanted to be i know i know. i didn't want to just sit and it was quite funny when you looked round at the end, you know, and everyone was just getting up i know. and normally we but everyone was well normally everybody chats. i know. looking a bit sheepish and going. at least we'd arrived. yes what? i can play. yeah, you can play. what do you want me to do? what, what have i got to do? if geoff, because geoff is supposed to be playing. but if geoff doesn't turn up in a few minutes. i don't mind. it's the morning, i can cope.. giving it just a couple more minutes and if he doesn't come oh alright. then it you know they might have been delayed one way or another. and then you could perhaps tinkle the ivories. yes, fine. what are we tinkling? well i'm sure it's something fairly easy. i'll cope, don't worry. i don't feel worried. . he's arrived. i don't feel worried. i'm in friends. i've never seen you in a suit before barry. it's my dashing one oh. i must say when i got up this morning i didn't feel much better than when i went to bed last night but there we are. i feel a bit more with it now. oh good. it's since i've met people you know, they all seem jolly. oh dear. extra half hour early cos no-one heard the clock. oh. it's a shame that, isn't it? have to change your job again. yeah. i'm enjoying the job. it's yeah. if you could just bring it here. just bring it here. yeah. like if you came straight out, what sort of time would you get home then? you know, if it was sort of five minute's stroll down the road? he's been home at, it's been about half past six evening. yeah. yeah. half six. yeah. this last sort of couple of weeks has been yeah. it's just we've had some big interviews and oh here he is look. we're alright. nothing personal twice . can we sit here ? i need paper . oh. this isn't a very good piece of paper. if you don't know we'll teach it . what's this? what are we singing then? i don't know. he's going something to us. we don't know it. oh. what it is. what is it that we don't know? what number is it? we don't know. what don't we know? we might know it. we'll be told in a minute finished. round about six o one. six o one? yeah, the dummy one. no, i said round about six o one. oh right. that's the page it's open at. pick any one on the page. it can't be that one. wait a minute. oh i bet it's five nine eight. what's five nine eight? five nine eight? i don't know. i'm just guessing. that would seem to be the sort of thing he was humming. but then geoff would know that wouldn't he? another erm psalm looking type one. that one? yes. where's philip? is he with us? no. oh. is he working? he rang me up at nine o'clock. he says i don't think i can quite make it yet you know. oh no. is he in work then? yeah he is in work, yeah. all night? no no no. he went at seven o'clock this morning. oh right. at least somebody's got some work to do. that's good innit? yeah. i think, i think it was more he thought if he didn't do his clearing up he might get the sack, so oh right. so he had to go and clear up. that's a good one. don't know that one geoff. cliff richard can't do this, what are you worrying about?worship song. that will do geoff, for our singing. what number is it? is it ? that all depends on how the, how he can get that guitar in tune . he has to he has to do without the rhythm. i can't cope with it. in the end i might you know . you are . there must be one that set you up. six hundred. oh. wrong again. morning everybody. morning. did you sleep well. yes. jolly good. jolly good. let's just er begin with a a a kind of quiet. get ourselves into the presence of the lord. you can't have any. why can't i have an egg? because that's d andy's. yes. and that's mine. well that's okay, and that's christopher's. i'll have an egg without an egg cup. oh. why? well i can have it and just peel it. i mean take the take the skin off it. i'm not why don't you come in the sitting room with me away from daddy? and leave christopher doing a bit of drawing. have you had a nice time this morning? what did you do? alright then. shall we do it together? and gonna be happy when this is nice actually. it's like when you i can soon break it. why? then make it again alright then. mum. hello. could you get me from the shelf the black felt pen? which shelf? the big one with all the on top. there's some colours. there isn't black felt pen. right. i'll see what i can do. they've gone now. where are they? these ones? yeah. i need a black one. well you can have them all and put the black in when you need it. oh excuse me. in case one of these doesn't work. i need a red . come on. i'm coming. quick. i can't be in two places at once. cut the paper off. it seems a shame to break it up doesn't it, when it's so good. who made this one? christopher. did you know how oh yeah. was it la ellie. last night when you went to bed? yeah. ellie came put us to bed. that was nice. did you enjoy that? yeah. did you like it? how we gonna get this off? we gonna get that off? this one? yeah. it's a bit stiff. there you are. mm. how we gonna get that one off. don't know, you have to sort of wobble them. when you wobble them they come off. oop. ah! they come off. break it. oh. there. there we are. now make it again. right. what shall we make this time? how shall we start? a house. a house? we need one of these to make it stand up. right. that's the is that the floor? yeah cos where's the story i got ? have you got a story? yeah upstairs. i one. oh. the foundations. that one about building the house? yeah, like ours. oh. it's a different one though cos this is a big one. right. and that's not a big one in the story. how's that? house. we need some more walls. some more walls. oh that's a good one. a big tall one. let's try that shall we? shall we put a roof on? yeah there's a roof on here. how do you do the roof? that way do you think? the roof. . have to do without the roof. have to do that to the then we'll make it come down now this side. are you doing some more whoops a daisy. whoops. if you're going to make it go out that way then you'll have to make it go out that way at the bottom otherwise it won't fit when you try to put the other wall up. ooh. and the problem with that one is is it's not sort of fitting the edge there. it is. look. need one of these. then this comes down the side look. need one of these. oh no, that's not right. look at that it's got things sticking out. do you think you've got to have it down the edge there, haven't you? this time. and how do we fix this on now? look, i show you. er there and could we take this yellow one off we'll find it fits in like a wall, like that look. oh! that goes on. try that . that's good. oh. oops. oh. i'm gonna make it. there you are. now what are we gonna do with this yellow piece? i know wonder if we can put that on the bottom, can't we somewhere? that be the floor. yeah. this doesn't feel quite right here somehow. it's all wobbly. shall we, just let's see if we can turn this round so it makes it we need one of these. when ellie did it it didn't seem to fall to pieces like ours is timothy. that's it. we the floor now. is it ready? think the eggs probably are but i don't think the whole lunch is yet. are you hungry? is it possible to lay the table do you think, for me? i think we might manage that. it's ready. i don't mind burnt toast. adds to the flavour. mm. me mum and dad seem to have had trouble with their toaster don't they? judging by their letter. did you see their toaster? what make mm. was it? i don't remember seeing it. it was a new one. they had it. where they had it? no,why they had it . why they had it . mum. well we had it in the evening. you know when i used to have my oh yes . toast and marmalade and was that nice? but that was where the trouble was because it didn't toast properly. because you turned it up to number five and it was pale. and turn it down to number one and it . have any of that. i haven't had either. right. what do you want on yours? erm they're planning on taking it back so it's the cheese we've been having at work this week mum, help. it's called dutch. i've been having it? you've been having some of that, yeah. mm it's nice. have that bit dad. yeah. the trouble is this has erm crusts, sort of rind on it, that's all. do you want a piece? it's called edam. it's a bit different from we don't usually have edam do we? did i have it with my marmite? yes, you've had it with your marmite. that much? is that alright? i want a bit of it. with my bread. he's got cream cheese on there dear. right. i like it better with marmite. can i have marmite and cheese please? mum i need some not just a . cos that won't very good. i need three more fold it over. you what? mum i finished my bit. oh! i can't do it. why is there not very much left in? because i had it all when we had breakfast. anyway, we've had it a lot haven't we? we've had marmite a lot. i had it for my dinner at school a lot actually. mm. mm. dad right, what's on the agenda for this afternoon then? dad, it's not all over. what's that? what's that? mum, what's that? it looks like a sandwich going up and down to me. no. it's a lid. it's a lid. oh. what about you? a rest i suppose. i dunno really. my body feels inactive, but my mind feels fed up,. this week. dad, i like the cheese better than the marmite. that's why i like saturday's and potter about. do the garden or walking or whatever it is. something very different. why did you toast bread?toast. no, there won't be any more now. and that dozen in our garden can't decide which way to face. have you noticed? cos in the morning they get the sun from that direction, then they don't see the sun again for a bit and then it turns up suddenly from over there. they don't know whether to face over there or over there. mum. hello. what and then we had a lot of biscuits. did you? why? i don't know why. talking about monday. monday?questions. i know what it is. what? questions on monday. i know what it is. what is it? oranges. you're right. it is oranges. they've been sitting there for over a week i just see the orange. well they were meant to go in a chicken but it never happened. it's oranges, i guessed it. i knew i was going to do chicken a l'orange. it's my turn. but you weren't here so i thought ooh, blow this for a lark. i can see black. oh. sorry for that. no i don't know what that is. red. yes. and that's black. red. i i guessed the oranges. that's right. half each. mm. good idea. no, one each. one each. one each? no. too big. they're huge. we'll be having half each. half! mm. because they're rather large. do you want to peel them? if you peel one i'll peel the other. okay. if if you peel that one mm? that's my friend mummy. your friend am i? that's nice. am i a friend too? we're all friendly together. i'm i'm mummy's friend and daddy's friend and that's nice isn't it?friends. oh that's friendly family. all friendly. do you like everyone as well mum? i do like everyone, yes. i like everybody very much if if mummy do that one well i'll do one and mummy does the other one. yeah. and you can share it up. and you share it up. yes. they both have . oh,me. tim, put your hands over your eyes. no. those satsumas we had or whatever they were clementines were they were quite nice for tea all this week. have you had one? very difficult to peel. one day i had them and they were full of pips. oh. did you have that problem? oh no we've never had that problem. mm. have you i've had that problem. with lots of pips in? mm. did you have one at school with lots of pips in? mm. sorry about that. oh. you just couldn't tell from the outside. beg your pardon. i had that problem once. i kept looking in mine when i when i had it once i thought ooh. and now i'm going to have a look in my orange before i eat it. very wise. so i don't know whether this one will have pips in it, so be careful. daddy. i would think the oranges will have pips in won't they? usually do. oh they usually do. i think these have pips in. mm. orange pips are slightly bigger than satsuma pips so you can see them. yeah but sat the satsuma pip was really big. they were quite big. actually i got it in my mouth. did you? that's alright. you spit it out again did you? yeah. mum what's that hard thing? half. everybody was eating do other people get satsumas at school? half please. no. yeah. no? what do they have? half. sorry. dad give them into little bits. just check there's no pips tim. yeah. and i'll check mine. you're checking yours are you? i'll check mine myself. all i do is look in the i think there's no pips in mine. just as well innit? seeing's you've eaten it. whoops careful. slow down a bit. just go slowly tim. yes. cos they're big slices, it's not like satsumas. chew them properly. daddy. yes. you you do this. mm. you you you do this you you suck no i'm not suck it i just eat it. i rescued you mrs and mrs and mrs don't cut them properly. don't they? if i had an orange mum mhm. and they cut it all that they leave the skin on? you don't have to eat the skin, surely? no, but all they do, they leave the orange in the skin. oh i see, they don't peel it. and you have to suck it out? oh. that's probably cos it would take them too long to peel everybody's oranges wouldn't it? there's no skin on yours. i think this one's got pips in. oh. they're nice aren't they? mm. do you have mrs and mrs then with your class?mm just mrs . no. mm. what we do mm. is we go to another class mm. and we ah i see, right. so two classes come together and you all, each have a dinner lady? and yours is mrs . theirs is mrs . got it now. it's got a pip in. mm. well put it that bit then in there. mum, none of mine had pips in. and mine . nice taste . very nice. mum. it's nicer than a satsuma really. it is. got more faff what else is there? what else is there? mm. i'll have a look and see what else there is. you might find some biscuits in the biscuit tin. is it biscuits again? oh. see what daddy finds. mum i didn't like did i? i didn't have a home made one because i had a very funny tummy didn't i? but i haven't had one once and it tasted really nice. oh what we gonna have? what we gonna have? er what we going to have mum? what we gonna have dad? cloth by the sound of the water. what? we're going to have a cloth by the sound of the water. i think i . yeah i think daddy's just erm making sure we haven't got such sticky fingers after our oranges i think. then we'll have a biscuit. can you pass me a cup please? i want to wash my hands first cos . i'll have the next round. tim you haven't washed your hands yet. i have. when? now. then daddy thank you. yes? you can keep this if you like. right, thank you. you can have it if you want. i've already washed my hands. oh. where's he going? toilet? he's only had three drinks. you definitely pay the penalty don't you, for leaving your children? cos other people say you don't do things your way. it must be a problem if people sort of leave their children in nurseries all the time cos it's nice for a short time but for a long long time they're just not yours are they any more? yeah. it seems a pity but it's not for very long. he's been chucked out a lot recently hasn't he? he has yeah. that's why i'm feeling as if i ought to stay in tonight really. what do you think? think i'm just chickening out? i think it's a bit of both. i am chickening out cos i don't feel as if i've learnt an awful lot. yeah. well do you want to chicken out? instead. i think i ought to go. why? i ought to go. why? you've said you'll go. just because you've said you'll go or because you think ? i think possibly. even though i have heard it all before. and do you think i ought to go then? well i mean there might well be something i don't mind. well there might be. but i can understand gripping and of interest but at the same time my priorities at this moment got a pip in. it's gone now. it doesn't seem very fair. fair on who? him. oh here. you alright? oh it's here it's wet. i wondered what that was there. must be the oranges do you think?tipped out of your . considering everything put together like your tiredness your children mm. not a tremendous amount new just to get there oh! it is with this one. i haven't seen him for two days. i might feel differently by five o'clock mind you. but you ought to let dawn know . that's true. i get a biscuit. no more biscuits cos you've had you've had six million biscuits already. three this morning. one two three did you? four. you've had four now,. cos cos i've just had that one. that's right. that's a plain one. that's right. that's a chocolate one and another chocolate chocolate . and then i have another . good gracious. you'll go pop. did you have that many as well? did you? what is rosemary thinking of? i'm gonna tell rosemary i had a biscuit at home. and i'll be telling rosemary what i think of her biscuit trips. and yesterday we had a treat. why, what happened yesterday? because that girl came. oh yes, she gave you a lolly didn't she? and your teeth will be dropping out. a lolly? mm. wasn't that what it was? lolly? what lolly? didn't you get a l a chewy lolly or something on a stick? mm? from that girl that he's had. at school? the one wasn't that what you came home with? is that what you mean? this treat no? what treat? was there another one then? yeah. yesterday at school this student girl, not the one at school? no. you know that girl came? i want to watch the telly. oh, ellie. yeah. you want to watch the telly? i want to watch video. video please. well she didn't give you anything to eat. she gave no she gave us a drink what was right. i expect you can watch a bit of video. a little bit. i had she gave you a drink did she before you went to bed? oh. atchoo oh. no wonder they were soaked of a night. yeah, go on. nothing. i had to have a bit because when i put the blackcurrant in there wasn't enough so i had to mix it up with . oh. we've run short of blackcurrant. we haven't got much. no we've not got any now. but we've got some lemonade and things like that . thank you mister tom tom player. i've found a drum. you know when these people came to school and played instruments, how many of them were there? erm let me count. hard work. can you see me? no not quite. there. no, cheeks there. there's loads on your cheeks. i don't know what it is. eight. eight. a lot of them then? yeah, all gosh. right let me have another eight people came? oh goodness. i didn't realize that many. i thought it would be just two or three people. right that cheek's fine. now try the other cheek tim. two violins mummy that's done. a cello. yeah. one cello. one, two violins one cello mummy mum . er then no, bit more. two things of them and i don't know what they are. that's one two three four clarinet? there. one bit more. erm here. seven. there's seven. there's that many mum. oh right. was anybody on a drum? or anything like that? a little you know. i'm gonna play the drum. i'm gonna play the drum. listen you're not even tidied up yet. come round here and i'll sort that cheek out for you cos you've still missed it. scrub it hard. no, you're still missing it. bit further nearer your ea that's it. go on now try, no too far back. that's it, try there. better. what are your hands like? okay. can you take your bib off then? er you please. no i'm playing. i'm gonna go somewhere no i had it first. can you take that in the kitchen please cos it is biscuits, actually. and it could break. correct. no it couldn't. timothy! timothy, that is not a drum, that is a biscuit barrel. please take it in the kitchen. thank you. can i have paper please? can i have paper? what sort of paper? paper. what for? just to write tim on. to draw on? mm. i'll see what we can find. with felt tip. with felt tip? i think you're gonna get the felt tip on your hands. we can find some dressing up things. in here that's it. and where shall we sign it again? does she live in that one? erm yes i should think so. i should think this is her friend, don't you think? oop oh look at . no, that one. look at the had had hat. look at the look at the at the can't read that mummy. well you've got le- and you've got li-. lovely. that's it. look at this lovely hat. i i got a hat too look at my what's she trying on? shoes that's it. shoes. look at my shoes. i got those shoes too. ha looks funny now. look at my very pretty. pretty dress i got a pretty dress too. look at this lovely necklace necklace? beads. beads beads, they're not beads? mhm. look at these lovely beads. look at these pretty what are those things in your ears, do you know? earrings. look at pretty earrings. i i like dressing up. i like dressing up too. you look like a princess. princess who? i don't know. just a princess. you look like a princess. and you look like my mum . where? let me have a so she looks like a princess and she looks like her mum. yeah that looks like her mum doesn't it? mm. oh here comes dad. hello hello hello hello hello hello. what are you doing? hello hello hello what are you do . why do i have to say it twice? i don't know really. i think the idea is that you just, they show you who's doing the speaking by putting it in that little bubble from the person and then they write it again at the bottom. i don't know why. you don't have to say it twice if you don't want to. you can just read this bit if you like. where doing we're. we're dressing up. i princess t tamla. tamla and this is liz liz is your mum. liz is. you are . . oh, that's it. well that was fun. now let's see if we can do these. yup. yup. reading. yeah. reading? yeah. shop. yeah. shopping. yeah. yeah. yeah. lake. no. ? if you look at that bit, you know who that is don't you? what? that's you. middle name. market. market. market. i really knew that all the time. did you? i'm teasing you . oh right. fine, market. two three and what's that's the number two remember. tummy. well done. i think you know all those don't you? i'll pick any one of these, see if you can read it to me are you ready? this one. reading market cup tummy sun moon market reading two i think you'll know those don't you, when mrs asks you? hopefully she'll be back in school on monday. she wasn't there on monday was she? what else have we got in here? we've got some plastic bags. a very fine acrobat. it needs a bit of sellotape there doesn't it? mm. do you want to sellotape him up? i like this bit. oh i like his mouth. that's good. how did you do that? actually mm. i a bit like this mm. and if you look carefully on this you'll find some of those. there's one mum. oh. oh yes i see. there's a great big yeah. . we could hang this up. we could do. if you get it st erm stuck down properly we can . or i could make it into a puppet. how did you get this stick then? did you have to saw this stick? mm. that's good innit? which end did you saw? this bit? well i did it well that's a bit straight isn't it? mm. it might be that one. i thought it would be that one cos you'd be a bit wobbly wouldn't you with your sawing? or were you straight with your sawing? straight but mum we had a very straight thing which sta stood on the table very hardly and right. you clamped it down did you? you need some sellotape just there round that arm. on that hand. away you go. see what you can do. round that? no that one's alright, that one's stuck. it's just this one. well you can hold it . look . mm very good. we can hang it up. we could hang it over the stairs instead of that fish. we'll take the fish down put the clown up instead. whoops. it's an acrobat. oh, beg his pardon. the acrobat up instead. can he swing over? no, not really. yes he can. ooh! oh it would be better if he was stuck on properly. then we could swing him over. another sticking session. a session. a sticking . i've lost my cup of coffee. what did i do with it? it was when you were playing with it with your fingers, do you remember? anyway it won't matter. we can use some pliers or something to bend it back. hello hello hello hello mummy this is for winter this isn't it? hello. your er ? yes. i don't suppose we could have it for for the chilly days. well in the summer you won't need jumpers will you like this? no. hopefully. if we have a good summer. mind you in the evening, if it gets quite chilly in the evenings so it might be a good jumper to wear in the evenings when we go for our evening walks by the sea. oh what a lovely thought daddy. next time we go to the sea. oh it's the clip. he's been playing with it, he's bent it out so it . it's on at the moment though. i tried doing it with my fingers but i don't know. thank you dear. very helpful. very helpful. oh. mum, what about giving him something for being very giving who something? what do you mean? here, i'm gonna whisper you something. go on. give you what? why? oh i see. oh right. biscuits. no no. nothing to do with biscuits. right. we'll have to go nothing to do with biscuits. do we need to go upstairs first? er, i think we should. come on. chips. chips. i think we should have chips, don't you? macdonalds. mac erm have you got the purse mummy? erm i don't know. have you got some money? i haven't got any money . it's alright. i've got loads of money somewhere. it's just a matter of it's stopped raining. good. has john got a new car do you think? oh well i saw that on friday. in fact yesterday we said i wonder if he's got a new car or whether he's got visitors. i should imagine it's a new car. very posh isn't it? is it new? i mean it's j reg is it? i i i i told you to. will it fit in the garage? it's a bit bigger than our ford escort. it won't mummy. i don't think it will. if it doesn't mum anyway it wouldn't fit in the garage because there's another car in there. oh that's a point. that's a bit tricky. well we think that that might be a new car. yeah, we think it's . cos we're nearly there. we're not nearly there. we haven't even started . nearly there. got to be quick. did you actually go to sleep mummy? i did. did you? i was absolutely whacked out. you've done very well . well i haven't. you've done all the meals. dad, could you walk it to macdonalds? well you could. it would be a little bit far for us. but we could if we needed to. wouldn't be too bad cos you'd go down by the jolly farmer. yeah. you'd have to walk like gemma walks to school wouldn't you? mm. where does gemma live? gemma lives oakenshaw yeah, near macdonalds. near macdonalds dad. she lives right near macdonalds doesn't she? she does actually. wonder if she goes to macdonalds every night for her tea? no. but she could walk it from her house couldn't she? she could. because it's not far. yeah all she has to do is go go round her bit round just a normal road, across the road down a little bit and she's there. mm. it's not very far daddy, is it daddy? a teeny bit. it's only round the corner from her isn't it mum? it's only . i found it over here. i can't see it. there it is. there it is. there's a lot of people there. do you think we'll get a seat? ooh there's a lot of cars. i see macdonalds. there's not normally that many people there are there? no. it's what? it's a bit full. oh it looks crowded. perhaps there's a party. it's not a party. perhaps there's only one person in each car at macdonalds. that's true. i can't think that one person in a car on their own would want to go to macdonalds too often. like a mum or a dad or everybody must have thought what a dismal day this is. mm. let's got to macdonalds for our tea. mm it is quite full though. how do you know which way it is. are we gonna get i i don't think we're gonna get in. course we are. what? i've never known it that full before. where to park? there's a space. there aren't any spaces. well just keep going round. there was some space at the other end actually. there's a space. just missed a space. i don't think we did tim . no there weren't any. no. i think there's one just over here. oh how you space? where? there. that's the one i saw when i was coming in. don't know if you're meant to use it. well are those erm queuing up though? yeah. oh. i'd better get out this side i think. why? no, your side i mean. cos it's flowers and things. i the door. see ronald macdonald in person here on sunday the twenty second of march. i'll go round the door. appearances at noon and three pm. i thought the man was dead. i'm going out here. who is dead? ronald macdonald . isn't he dead, ronald macdonald? or perhaps it's sort of some dressed up character. don't! okay. are you coming christopher or are you going to sit here to have your meal? just wait tim cos there's lots of cars. i just going go round. well just go and stand on that path there cos there's another another car then. stay on the path. wait!just there. okay just stay, tim! stay on that path, go on. stay there. right stay there, don't move. yes. there's a car there. okay, right. away you go. ah be quick. look dad. yeah sit down. come on. mum, how many straws do we need? how many what? how many straws do we need? i don't know. shall i ask daddy and tim? how many we might need? yeah. twenty chicken nuggets please. twenty chicken nuggets. any sauce? and er yeah tomato ketchup and sweet and sour please. i can have two of each can't i? and french fries. yeah two large . and two teas two teas two oranges. erm that's it. do you want a straw? mum do you want a straw?straw. do you want a straw? oy mum . do you want a straw mum? would you not shout at me. what? don't shout at me. do you want a straw please? mummy do you want a straw? i don't want a straw, no. i i i i want a straw. mum mum mummy i want a straw. right. two thirteen change. thank you. dave do you want to take to that lady in the corner . can i help anyone? mum can i take these to the table? yes, just go and sit with daddy please. now stop i'll take them. no. why? no thanks. just milk. can you two go and sit down with daddy please cos this is getting silly. i want to watch. no. go and sit with daddy. i want to watch you. go and sit with daddy. no cos you keep shouting at me. now go away, please. shout at you. now please. go. go on please. . no. i shall just say i'm sorry we don't want this meal and we'll go away. go and sit down with daddy please. okay? french fries. say how many smarties come in a thing. i shouldn't imagine you were. i should think there would be about dunno thirty normally. it hasn't got holes in it has it? where's the holes? it has. it has hasn't it? yeah it's got loads of holes. er you could do with something to hold it with or else you're gonna get into a terrible terrible mess. where did you put all the paper? in the bin. right. well just have this round it. mum it's gonna take ages to eat these. it's gonna take ages to eat these mum dad. mm. why? mum. i don't know. depends how long you want for it to take. do you want a cup of tea daddy? another cup of tea, or a coffee? this thing, is it on, off? has it been on? it's not been on, no, i've just switched it on. right,toast and marmite, times two. i think everything on this erm, machine is to do with food, don't you? probably is. you need to sort of stop and talk when you have food. yes . yes please cup of tea are making it then?good! i did manage to sort out the food for tomorrow and did you really? that's very clever! well i thought . did you manage to do alright? yeah. found . i mean pinched one of for starters, that makes a difference. did you try it did you? no ! ah ho, a pathetic film on, i don't ah! know what it was about, but it was pathetic! ah! mm. what's happening tomorrow? what do you mean, what's happening tomorrow? well what is it tomorrow morning and evening and things. what? what is it tomorrow morning and evening, and what are we going to do in the afternoon without ? ! i know we'll cope but what are you going to do? are we inviting anyone? i know we're not inviting anybody for lunch christmas day couldn't cope with that but it would be quite to have them in the afternoon can't cope with the people! oh yeah. suppose we should do something, yeah. well that's what i was thinking, perhaps we could go with somebody somewhere. you know, like by a canal or something. perhaps, well if it's snowing it won't be quite the same. that's right. conducive to tripping about! but if it's quite nice weather, it would be nice to invite somebody along i expect. they could just . stratford? yeah the stratford warriors running about every six weeks something like that. is it six weeks since we saw the last one then? they didn't, they we , they have them more frequently now and they're getting even more and more infrequent now for the rest of the year. mm. and next one . that's mother's day twenty second. is it? no. mother's day a fortnight twenty ninth. somebody will organize a party for tuesday yeah they want a party piece on tuesday. it's alright you don't have to,of cake. if i don't bake them now my mother. yeah well tell your mother. i'll have to yeah i will. get one! and it better be a nice one! pop into marks and spencers they have some amazing shapes in marks and spencers that the children will enjoy. really? mind you it might be expensive. tesco's are probably cheaper. you remember that tom and jerry i got for tim? because i couldn't be bothered to cook it. well, leave it up to me, i'll see what i can get i'll get for the party. thank you dear. is that alright? yeah. i'll get you some. and i'll just make the rest of the with salad in. you're not supposed to . i've told you what we're gonna for christopher haven't i? i know, he went to school to do yeah. housework. is that naughty? thursday morning. right, christopher will be back too! i wish i could i'd like to you what? out at the meeting again on monday night. on monday? where are you going monday? going to sue's house. oh right the big housewife! the housewife mhm. like cooking this week. ah, i'm having jane for a piano lesson, aren't i? what day? which day? monday. are you? oh well so that fits in quite well i couldn't remember what i was doing on monday but we said, sort of tentatively monday would be probably quite a good day i think. better than thursday anyway. so could tuesday night be inspector morse night? yeah cos my mum will be here then. oh right can we not take her home? unpaid ! well she'll we shall see! have been here all day, won't she? so she might want to go home! she wants to tell us all about her wedding could you tell her we're going to watch inspector morse! for the third or fourth time! will she have watched inspector morse? she won't of watched it, cos it's bound to be on a wednesday night! does she like inspector morse? i don't think she watches it normally. no, she probably doesn't like it. a bit spicy! i bet she would, she loves anything like that! bit of a body! mind you, it might be too complicated! it was i remember reading in the paper that it's been it's been filmed at a house which no one 's ever been allowed to go in even the great sort of one of these country mansions, it was not bradley hall right. and even people who write about if it was not bradley hall , it can't be bradley hall again, they're always going in there ! well that's fine. it was some country mansion in oxfordshire you know? mm. it's as you come off the and how did and they get permission then? they somehow managed to persuade the owners, apparently it was and it was and nobody else had ever been allowed in this place not even erm historians who write about famous buildings, even they had been refused access! where is it? somewhere in oxfordshire. oh! they don't know where? oh . so this was about last week's episode? i think it was about last week's epi , but they seem to e imply that it was last week's episode that would oh. do it. we seem to have got one spare video if we don't get it watched before wednesday. alright. well that's the only chance. oh yeah cos we're going to maryland tomorrow. your dad. mm. erm not it wasn't about your dad, it was about my birthday cos cos yo he'd realized that it was my birthday, and wha , what did i want? so i said send me a cheque and i'll go and shop. and? and last week cos she's quite generous isn't she? she is a bit but it's . no, i didn't say anything. i think that's the thing. so your dad sent a cheque. anyway i asked her if she'd heard from your dad, and she has heard from your dad apparently on friday he went to the consultant mm. and next week he's got his first well she didn't know whether it was radiotherapy or chemotherapy. and she said he has to go trotting to exeter two or three times a week now. mm. i don't know how long it's going to go on for, or what it is exactly but i thought it would be a good idea to ring your dad up and see. mm. but at least things have moved, and at least they've gone round. so i'm pleased really, are you? interesting that they've done it so quickly isn't it? after seeing him, because he thought that once he'd seen the consultant it would then take some time to get the treatment started, but they must have got themselves over that. yeah. well i mean everyone . yeah. i think . gotta get moving. and presumably whatever it was the gp had give him has had tha , upset that thrombosis again. i don't know whether to ring him tonight, oh it's too late tonight now. it's much too late. perhaps we could ring tomorrow afternoon when the children are up? well they love talking to them on the phone don't they? i know they do. we could can prime them up on what to say and types of things to talk about so they don't get moaned down or something ! bogged down ! so he's had to go in, what did you say? three times a week? i don't know she just said something like that a few times a week and i think it sounded like three cos she was wondering how he would cope with driving and everything. mm a trial! well i hope not i mean no he won't be able to drive but presumably your mum can do that for, they've got hundreds of people there, he's always driving people everywhere that's right. so i don't see why they can't drive him! i'm sure they will yes. cos they're very good aren't they? i mean look at that woman doing her er from the from the church. at times like this it would be nice if we lived nearer could help out. it would nice if we lived there but we can't so it's about . and write as well. yes. double dose. yes. and pulled out. well it's sort of pulled out, but at least it's . we'll be paying for it as well. and it's hard as well. we've been paying anyway, so it must of you know. what does erm you see er eileen's and she's having chemotherapy isn't she? by me , by medication, is that right? well she takes all these tablet things. that's right she has a sort of massive dose every now and then. and that makes her feel what? she's not in pain is she? more sort of dopey. i wouldn't care if they made me dazed yeah. ! yeah. i dunno. not gonna difficult to know. oh yes, that was it! i wonder how bad it is, that feeling's like, we don't really know how bad it is do we? no. perhaps he will be able to say, you know? but whether he'd tell us over the telephone,you think ask. i think he would wouldn't he? i think so. what do you want on your toast? here's marmite. right, shall i give the marmalade to you then? yes can we have watch your arm there! marmite? which half do you want? and marmalade. do you want some marmalade on it? yeah. which half do you want the marmalade on? that on? are you feeling alright before you sort of? that one? oh i see. daddy don't shout because i when it's and then am i allowed . mm. i would be like that. will you? and i'll be do you want me to spread it for you? yeah i want some milk? and i like and not o , all over the place! no, just over half of it that enough? no marmite! don't put marmite! ooh! you're having a lot of milk chris! but i like it! just cereal . poo! christopher's had it all! i want some! alright, don't get cross with each other! i want some! i want some more! try again tim! please? and i want daddy to go. why should daddy have to go? you've finished that dad! okay. he made the breakfast with the milk i want some toast! and you have to wash up! mum, i want mum no get me up for it. i want to lie down. that bad is it? mum, do you want where am i, where am i going? oh no we're not gonna take another tape off! why? it's sunday today. what? it's sunday. sunday today. where are we going? it's a different . where do we normally go on sunday? ! what? where do we normally go on sunday? ch ch church. yeah! here we go! there's scramblers today. mm have you seen your scrambler pads? cos i can't find it. what's ? i've not seen it mummy , i've not seen it at all. in the church? mm. going to church today. and you get to go to scramblers christopher is going to chris is going all weekend. the chorus. i will dad, it's upstairs. is it? in my bedroom. can i have the marmite? marmite! the . get that. that's the one. ! when we were at the park i took the down there cos you've done a lot of shouting today chris! hello! pardon? you want a coat, why didn't use a coat,what you're wearing put it on why don't you get dressed? i refuse to get dressed! i'm not cold . you're not cold you just want to be cuddled. has another . have you been to mum? the toilet recently? yes another try it! helps you feel better. i er go and get a knock! mum? that look! maybe . oh good! that's probably the trouble if you've been eating too much. in future we'll get the out. i think so. really and erm, just absolutely if he does that . before i could stop him, he'd bought his ! oy! i want some i haven't got enough! oh good morning dear! so nice to see you this morning. it is. are you tired? different when you're not well you feel tired. mummy, can i get ? well it's there! well something to cover me up. well i think you should get dressed rather than do that. and then you can have, be covered up when you're dressed. cos then you'll be warmer, especially round your feet. i'm not cold! you're not saying you are cold and then you're saying you're not cold! are you shivering? may i please it? go on then. you! how have you managed to marmite round your eye? eye? mm look. did he look ill before he started on his breakfast daddy? i dunno. i was all to the fountain for daddy's . oh! mum i didn't tell her twenty two days good! i left school. no you didn't, or this week. they owe you forty p. thank you. no. milk mummy! but he's dad too. do you feel sick or what? ah well you eat that bit of toast , i'll leave it there. just achy. just tired. here's my cracker? let me see. it's gone. your colouring book's here. it's yo that's my colouring book. well have you noticed it's missing? he's my colouring book. oh. i haven't looked actually. it is. is it . and i haven't been doing it. here's my cracker! oh what a lovely cracker! nothing in! no you're not no. no. he's opened it already, at the top! oh there's your i'll go upstairs cos i was going to scramble a badge with christopher. and explorer badge for christopher. scrambler badge for you. right you can have a lie down now. mum i want to cuddled! bye! i broke it! i broke it! do you want a cushion for your head? yes please. i've got it! i've got it! thank you tim. i've got it! oh do here you are. thank you we'll just put it on the little table here, look for a bit until it's time to put it on. here it is. i can go pig! i did have a sweetie yesterday on the di dee dee der sweeties bye! ooh! whoops a daisy! rice krispies on the floor! i'm bringing them back. if you suddenly feel sick, there's the bowl okay? no, just leave it on the edge, he doesn't want it up his nose! that's it. are you alright? no! what's the matter? your jumper goes in, not the bottom drawer but the next drawer up. you found it? yeah. oh good. this cupboard this cupboard . oh that's in with your that's in with your trousers, did you take your jumper out? yeah. put it in this one, that's the jumper drawer. put the jumpers in here please! yes please. oops! put i put your jumper in there. jumpers in that one, and then the bottoms in that one. there's some more pyjamas where will they go? mhm. i think there might be more pyjamas, i'll go and se can't do it! can't you? if you leave that drawer open, i think there's more pyjamas to come so i'll get them for you. there you are, there's the tops to the pyjamas. i just closed the cupboard. right. right, the same drawer that you put the jumper in that one goes in. . mm. right, now then wait a minute! the sock can go wi , the same as the jumper again. that one. no you can't get in the those are daddy's, okay? daddy's socks. now where are you putting daddy's socks? in the in daddy's drawer. in. i just put it in this one. right. look. wonderful! now the bottom drawer over there, you can put my jumper in. no the bottom drawer look! that's for things like this, i put these in there. right, down below now you to, the bottom where? drawer. right at the bottom. that one? yep. no, that's the middle oh that's it, the bottom one, it's come out. that's the one! this? yep jumper can go in there. the other side, look there, there's a space, can you see? where? why don't you just stuff it in it'll just ! that's it! thank you. now we here your pants and socks and trousers go in the that's a your bottom socks. drawer. there is my bottom . come on! i'm coming! no where's should the socks right at the bottom. here? mhm. this one? yeah and the pants and the trousers. yeah pe now these are all christopher's ones. gotta put those in christopher's drawer. and then there's just your vest now to go in the same drawer as your jumper. no that's the trousers that's it! oh. there's much there. two open. yeah that's cos the drawers are a bit peculiar! right good i think we've done it now. no we haven't. i think we have. the rest is all ironing so we take that down to the ironing basket. alright? let's go and leave daddy in peace. where did i take it?paper, where's my paper ? there's some paper in your well where about bedroom. there's some on the floor there look why don't you take that downstairs, and use it. where? on the floor. no, write down on my boating one! your boating one. i want to read to daddy. i don't know which is your boati , oh i know, it's in my bedroom cos you were making mummies all over it. are you coming downstairs now? i'm coming! i wanna lift! you wanna lift what? . i'm not giving you a lift downstairs, come off it yeah, oh! i can't get down now! why don't you oh! sit down, and bump down like you usually do no! when you want to go fast? oh! oh! mummy! hello! are you still feeling pathetic! i thought you might have recovered by now. i thought you might have recovered by now. are you hurting? or are you just tired? you're hurting. mummy i want a lift! well i'm not coming up the steps, and lift you down the steps! you're perfectly capable of coming down yourself! ! i can't go down cos i now! sit down on your bottom and i'll catch you at the bottom, right you ready? on your marks get set bump!be domp be domp be domp be domp be domp be domp be domp be domp be domp be domp be domp be domp, got you! well done! aha ha! aha aha! aha! you got a ? ah. daddy's note book. daddy's note book ooh i shouldn't lose that! has that come out of his pocket? it's probably got in it all his train numbers. what? it's probably got all his train numbers in. i don't think these trees are gonna grow, do you? oh yes, i can see one little seed! hey look at this! oh what? in here there's one very, very tiny little a sort of seedling coming up, can you see a little spark of green just there? just one. oh look there's another one! see the . two. don't know if you'll see it over there, i think you might have to be in the light. here look inside here it's meant to be bonsai trees but i don't know whether i'll ever remem materialize. somebody gave us one for christmas. can you see? if you look very carefully you can just see a couple of little green shoots starting to come. i can only see one, i can't see another. oh mum i can see one in a big lump. you sit down. one in a big lot? big one but i can only see that. mummy! hello! sit down because i there's a green looking spot there. the says i can't can you see any? because of daddy. look. please? okay, can i feed the fish first, cos these poor fish haven't been fed yet. yes. you sit down! i will! i'll sit down, i'll sit down, just hold on! finish doing the jobs. oh. mum, is it meant to be a tree when it grows up? you well you coming back? it's meant to be a bonsai tree which looks like a tree but it's only very small like that high. but at the moment i think there's lots and lots of seeds. i think there could be about fifteen trees in there, so far. that fish came zooming up to the top then, to see what you were doing. oh. now then tim, not too much, alright? these are fish, not sharks. go on. ha ha! wah hey, look at that one, it must feel hungry! oh dear! that's a lot! oh it's not too bad. a tiny bit. only a tiny bit now, yeah. oh! that's it, go on then. that's it, lovely! put the top on. put the on. the fish have got very big red do you put that bit in? no, just put the top on. ah oh! a bit more in there. ha ha ha ! ha ha ha! what's the matter with you? aha aha aha aha! some in there. why don't we take that to the kitchen then, it'll be out of the way. yeah. mm. ha! looks rather funny that , i think that lid's a little bit large do you? ma ee ee ee ee ee ee. what? the lid, do you think it's a bit large? no. oh, you think it's alright? yeah, hold on these poor fish are gonna be able to jump out of there if they need if they want to. ooh ah ah ah! don't be so noisy! they will be frightened then. mm, they're probably used to it by now! come on. ow! my toe! right, what are we drawing? daddy. i think you need to go to the toilet don't you? yes oh dear, if it's not one thing it's another! is it wet? it's just damp actually. because the wee wee has dried up. no, i just think wee wee please. it's just sort of started. oh! why did he . oh. and you go down and you catch me! could you go down and catch me? well let's wee first shall we? there's no poo there's no poo there's no poo! right. it was a good job i noticed, wasn't it? would you of noticed? mm? ee, if you've finished the toilet and you go down and catch me. yeah you go down and catch me please? go down then catch me down i you catch me catch! on er orgh! got you! if you sit on mum. this one, cos you're i like sitting on this one. no if you sit here cos look i and we sit here. you can bring it here i've got sat down now, i can't cope, i'm too old! go on. now do this you put this there. you're not going to draw first, no? no. oh. cos i said i'm going to read this! okay. mum? where's my aeroplane ? i want to do yeah, your aeroplane's upstairs. colouring. do you want to do it? i can do colouring. off you go then. i'll do some can you help? colouring. can you help me? what, make the aeroplane? mummy that's it. you have to colour it cos it's a by the cooker colour. a cooker ! no, colour. colour, right okay. are you going to get some pencil crayons to do yeah. it with? mum! so instead of getting ordinary crayons because wendy got some lego. i think you should just get pencil crayons cos otherwise we'll never be able to use them. rosemary got some lego, did you know that? pardon? rosemary got some lego. rosemary's got some lego? oh that's nice. he got a boat a little boat. oh lovely! actually and those won't be any use will they tim? can you see those up there in the those will be the best. shall i come and help you cos i don't think you ought to s let me do it myself! not on the one is his. can't reach there. you'll see the names on them. oh right. will you say to me or even better look, these ones these will be best for our job. shall we do it at the table? have you got mine one yeah! ? do you want to go and get your aeroplane, cos i can sit at the table and colour with one hand, and make aeroplanes with the other. mine! no, his aeroplane. right, are we ready? here's somebody going to the dentist in this book. feeling a bit sick. do you darling? oh dear! are you coming tim? no not yet. what you doing? i'm just trying to get them at the back did you know? that book.. come on, there's a chair. did you know that no the said it was my fault and that no the green thank you. can you er can't hear you properly, don't know what you're talking about. if you have mum! yeah, i'm not listening properly when you wanna say something it go blue. . i can't hear you love, you'll have to come and talk to me in here. no, if you have blue. why can you hear me ? if you have blue. cos tim's talking to me as well, and i'm not being that clever. the blue there's a blue. i go oh! with you talking. ah. that's broken that one. have i think i need a mum! sharpener. tell me again, tell me about christopher in the playground. yeah, right i went in the playground. where's the no. and you were in ah the playground. i have that one please. i was in the playground playing with ve verona and guess what happened? i was just walking back to go and he'd got a oh right. chris wanted to into me on purpose. on purpose! he was looking where he was going! these are . and he said it was my fault, but it wasn't! was it mummy? well i don't, i presume it wasn't. need a bin.. mind you, if you were going the same way as he wanted go, and he was going the way you wanted to go need a bin. and nobody wanted to move, then you would bang, and it need a bin! would be both people's fault. you do need a bin, you're right, it's over there. is she in the darren just , mummy! and also i was telling well that's mummy! what he was doing too. if you look after these, and i i'll look after those. with the bin. and while you're at it with the bin get yourself a tissue as well, to wipe your nose. the trouble is, you see, if christopher's doing what he wants to do, you're doing what you all want to do and then both both of you crash in the middle it's nobody's fault particularly is it? it i didn't go like that. well what you've got to do, you've both got to learn. i was i was there you've both got to learn and i was there jemima was there i was there, and jemima there mm. chris was there mm. and i went round there and he went straight into me. oh there we go. i suspect that one day, you'll both learn to look where you're going and both move out of the way. can you get a nice . so nobody is to back . well i didn't him coming, and ian saw me coming. are you going to get that aeroplane? yeah. look i know what number we're up to. erm number one . ah you've already wiped your nose, you've wiped it over your cheek! yuk! urgh, what a mess! right, what are we doing now, sharpening this? yeah. cos it's you cos we've had blue. i'm just gonna put . shall i help you? cos i don't yeah. think you're getting very far are you? okay. in the cu the little cupboard and you've gotta new book? yeah. right i found that one. did you put it back in his pocket? no. no. i think you should, do you? but i don't know where it is. hello dear. are you sorted? i couldn't find can't find any books on what books? well you know we've been reading stories, little ones, that was only two i could find but there weren't any stories well no, cos they're all in the pile love somewhere. well, they weren't! cos i've had a look at those pile, they didn't include them. didn't didn't include what? he was listing i should read a story on, mother feeding the five thousand oh it doesn't what you or something like that. but these are what you mean the the only ones that i've found well they were , that was all. i don't care what it was, it was just kind of, you know, a story that they might know. can you do it cos they're not no, there we go. i'll take that just happened to be the children's, that's all. does that matter? i mean i'll bring them back again. i suppose as long as you bring them back, it won't matter. yeah. as long as they don't want to borrow them . yeah. cos i thought it wasn't very fair to lend out the children's stuff no. i suppose for hours cos i had loads from when i was teaching so wi that, i've donated those cos our own children would never get to mark them. oh well ma , we were considering ooh we got a green jesus here! a green face. cos like that but right, now, we don't need that for a . is little girl still in bed, oh well we'll make her food up shall we? because that will be blue with that then. right, i'm gonna make blue, are they? actually i don't think they are really you know! do i look blue? yeah. we have blue clothes sometimes er don't you? i've got blue ones. you don't usually have a blue i did you a blue face. but we blue fa cos you don't usually have a blue face! still, when you're drawing, you can draw anything really. might have a red dress oh it's pyjamas i suppose, if they're in bed or a nightie? try and give her a red nightie. that's the sky it's all no, that's supposed to be what he's thinking look he's got little blobs coming from his head. why? cos he's thinking about jesus. i think he's going to the dentist or something, and he's a bit frightened so he thinks, he thinks of that. what's the matter christopher? and you get a lot i don't need to do all of this from an actual point no. of view. so, this is all food that is wow wee ! that's fair enough. do you know take one thing you know how . whoops! whoops a daisy! it's, it's to have a piano do want some lemonade then? cos that is here. daddy! it will be best if you sat down don't you think mummy? he ought to sit down shouldn't he? yep. hello do you want to come and join us? do you need the toilet? do you want to switch the telly off then? i should stay lying down if i were you. you can carry on watching videos i feel dizzy! dizzy? well lie down. no, mum when i lie down i get more dizzier! do you? i would of thought you'd of been better if you just well just sit down then love. shall i switch this to go? he's got . still there. i just think it's just the same hanky . and dad's . i want a drink of water? there you go. just drink it gently now. ha! try erm . do you think you're gonna be sick again? i'll and get you a box. i didn't realize they had got so one of these, i should bought some more shouldn't i? ah? pardon? open. it's alright i've got a few tins,. it's a good job grandma's away really isn't it? why? cut your chops up. cos she'll be should i make it small like my ? happy to see you being sick! no. i can't do it because i'll start chopping . what have you done all morning then? i suppose it wasn't really that much of a morning by the time you got home again. no. to make sure they're alright then they switched the telly on and fetched a couple of , the adult programme . what? they want an invitation typed. you're not having a earlier? oh they have it early in the morning, about half nine or something. they might, they might. yeah. they seem to be mainly, sort of, business programmes or alternative my one was, sort of , how to keep the customers happy. doing the bus conductor, do you remember the bus driver, the bus conductor? must of been desperate ! he was very happy wasn't he? kept on smiling and . how to keep them happy. yes. ooh, who had he got? he was talking to the passengers on the bus. but isn't he called? and telling them things. i don't know what his name was actually. double decker bus didn't he? london one. london. why? because he's a bus conductor. i can do the and he . anyway mummy, how was it? from what you saw,? well our little group of six was very nice. very clever. which ones were they? erm a new girl called jadie oh yeah. and samantha. ha ha ha er er . samantha don't worry and paul paula who was very sweet, and told us about when her parents split up reece who was also very sweet and erm paula mm. who turned out to be able to read quite a lot. did she? mm cos we decided it wasn't worth splitting into two groups, everybody else . . so was mary beth helping you? mm. i had her anyway, just in case. do you know if she minds or was she . no. she's quite happy. so what are we going to do? lots of fun. we just did what we were supposed to do really ha ha we actually read the first one of the quests together, so it was good you know, we decided what to do how to do it. they all one kind or another. is this the new library now, or is it the new extended ? well he's only got a little. does that make sense? since the adult . oh tim! tim, tim! can i ? yeah well let me change that bit over. there's plenty of adult books that can be used, still. mhm. but seems a pity doesn't it? mm. on that. i don't want peas. don't you? well, eat up eat up the broccoli then. what? eat what? eat up all your broccoli. no i don't want you tim, come on eat some of it! i don't want! oh oh! tim! you haven't eaten any of this! just because it's crispy. mm it's crispy! put that down please, and cut it into pieces. timothy, that is disgusting! there's too much when you do that. the horrible ! well it's only horrible cos you've put too much of it in your mouth at once. just have little pieces of it. i can't! looks as though there's gonna be no pudding unless you do! i can't with this bit! i think you're just being a bit too silly with your food! i can't have it now! eat that bit. there. and eat it properly this time! oops! wooh! she jumped off the tree!oh oh oh a tree. there was only two of them in scramblers. only two in scramblers! mm very oh! low day today. really! and there's you, who else was in scramblers with you? erm sarah. sarah oh! and nobody else! and nobody else! no. no they . yes that's true, yeah. but no, no there was a lot of adults there but obviously not families. i go mm. and one or two had farmed on their children out over there, like you know, the and made a family. oh yeah. they seemed to be a there in it's entirety and erm graham and kirsty, they were away with their gran. that was the beginning of the service . oh very jolly, yes, they enjoyed that. he can't . what, sat go! next to them, yeah? erm he was speaking and i think she was singing! stood up when . no. mum! everybody seemed alive this morning mummy! you know, sometimes people, sort of, look as if they've just got out of bed! yeah. probably they had! they seemed sort of keen and enthusiastic today. that's nice i don't want that there! it sort of inspires everybody to be keen and enthusiastic then. there seem to be large quantities of path finders going up and down like those. yes there were. mm. you see, i know well, i asked them you know, and they said did you? oh yes, it went very jollily. i don't want this bit! well i'm not surprised when it's been in your mouth, and then you threw it out again! you were a bit silly to put it all in at once, weren't you really? please may i take ? keep, your legs, what love? your legs are hurting you? there. where is it hurting, just your legs? er er er er ah er er. it's a bobbly one! a butter bean! put them on there. thank you. da dor dor da dor dor dor dor dor dor dor dor . dad! do you think you ought to go back to bed? daddy! yes, okay daddy! just a minute, i can't hold it at the moment tim! dad! dad ! tim, i can't hold it at the moment! daddy! dad! yes. here you are! does your head hurt? i've got something. thank you. your head, ache it's fizzy! right. and that's it. yeah. here's one two more. right. thank you. you cold? no more! i left the heating on. he's sweltered actually! yeah. he's got a temperature. oh! well where's our spoons? well some of us have got spoons here. they're on there! where's my spoon? here. chris use this. christopher doesn't need one. that spoon is spare! one, two two . oh mum! have a good cough, see if you can spit it up, whatever's . if it comes out of your mouth spit it out, rather than let it go back down to your tummy. i'm not going to . i, i'm gonna do these out. why only three? i, i'll go and get them. right get them out. mum! oh oh! thank you. there's yours spoon. going places? where you going? do some drawing erm oh! can you manage tim? no! shall i come and help you out? let me switch this thing off, it seems i've done it now. a bit silly having it on when we're trying to . is there? there's supposed to be two there! yeah alright. oh a bit worrying, there's only one, we must of lost one. can i have those? what? i got . i thought you only got one? no i got that one there. oh i see , you got two yellows. you can have those yellows if you like. right can you pass the not being very well. oh ! but that, you can't take them . okay. i don't think it will take much to count mine! one, two, three no ! four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen . that's a lot. i'm gonna guess, i'm gonna use the one i'm gonna guess it's thirty two. forty two. forty two! oh must of mis , misread it then there's probably sixty in the pack,not fifty ! forty two! i think you've won. well done, christopher! no. right tim, do you want a game? yes please. ooh no no he can't cope! and the cards shall we bending up. stay here. mm mm mm breaking up. i'll put those back mum! in the bag. do you want another game of caterpillars, or a different game ? oh oh oh oh! another game of that. i might not win this time. true! put those in the bag. the bag's behind you there. i'm gonna be yellow this time. right. you can be pink. want to be pink? you need a tissue. !i'm just kind of, stuck here! mum. mm? did i have more than you thought i would? yeah. i guessed thirty two cos i thought there was in the pack. cor that's a good blow, you're getting good oh! at blowing your nose, yeah, screw it all up and wipe the rest of your nose clean now. that no mum? that's not a good place! does that work? either stick it in your pocket for later does that work? yes it's working away. either oh. stick it in your pocket for next time or put it in the bin . where's the bin then? good question actually. i can't out there in the kitchen. aha! cos it was in the bin. he was gonna record the . right daddy, are you coming down to play or are you at least you've got the table. think i could do with a table cos this one's really right, okay, can we go to the table then? thanks. oh er is daddy gonna play? i think so. am i allowed to play? yes. what colour would you like to be, cos i'm gonna be yellow? any. oh. circle. yes. is tim going to be any colour? are you going to play tim? no, he's not gonna play just wants to sit with . and if he played, there wouldn't be any places left because it's four. we'd better bring the contraption with us. that's fixed up. ready? hang on a sec, take the microphone as well there . right, mummy wants to be purple. who does? what does christopher want to be? no! i want to be yellow. alright tim, we'll just sit him down again in a different place. oh! oh that's better got some pins and needles in my knees. right. can we sit down like that tim? no! oh very well then, like that. no ! what have we got? blue and red. red. ahhh! wake up! wake up! you can't wake up be too tired! yeah. tired. i'm red okay? erm why are we going round that way? i don't know that's the way you should do. and there just . ah oh! there you pink. shouldn't of done it that way. it doesn't matter does it? in fact if we'd done it the proper way you'd of had dad! you'd of had mine. no i wouldn't, cos i might have picked up a different thing. blue. that's funny! well there's blue there i'll get to do those just that will be even better! blue. that's mummy. blue and red. i wonder who's got a blue and a red! thank you. you've only got two that way you get me off thank you. red and also blue so that in that one yellow, there's no yellows around. mhm. green. no. could this be it daddy? could i be pinching yours? red. no, wrong way round oh it's brightening up the weather a bit now. take the and come back and be outside there. pity we couldn't go for a romp round a canal isn't it? yellow no! i just fancied a romp round the canals today ! needed some daddy! mm? wellington boots it's very muddy! yeah would of been alright. are you trying to tell me i wouldn't of liked it if i'd gone? not quite as much as a hot summer's day. red and green daddy that's well done mummy! you've got lots of red ones just . somebody's eating my caterpillar! makes a change from the caterpillar eating our flowers! are they? good. no, i don't think they are at the moment. are the slugs out yet? well, i found hundreds don't want no slugs! and hundreds of, you know baby things lurking under the leaves. get there. really? but they've all gone cos every time you rake up the leaves you throw away another fifty. mm oh!. particularly at the front, there were hundreds! little grubs, you know? mm. still covered blue yeah. red do one red please? oh no, it's the other way round, yes do a red please? i can't i can't reach ! can't reach what love? what? here. yellow and blue daddy oh no, it's the other way round yes it is. yellow and blue please christopher? thank you. mummy's got the longest red blue. red and blue? that's not very clever if you don't mind me saying so! it is! because when you this one seems to be perking up a bit,. he'll probably collapse bedside i hope this doesn't mean we're gonna have a se , a week of this! could do with a good faith if it's not one it's in the last yes. place is it? i've gotta get up early in the morning. have you? where are you off to, to the office? no you can't snatch me! work i mean i know you for dinner. colnbridge to do what? attend a meeting at eight o'clock. eight o'clock! i know. that's a bit anti-social,seven i know. fifteen. no. why do they want to make a meeting at eight o'clock? to squeeze more hours in the day. red. obviously what they do when you're what is it for? senior managers. oh look at that! red, green red, green, red, green, red green, daddy there's no caterpillar left on mine! thank you very much my dear, that's very kind of you. that plays with you. look at that, i've only got four left! mm. you wait, i'll get to you and then you'll be sniggering the other side of your face! yellow. ha! a blue, there's blue. yellow. ah! oh i've got lots of yellow things. yellow! yeah. come on daddy, don't sleep! blue. i won't! could be getting the . yes mummy. well done mummy! erm the yellow have i got the most? i think daddy's got the most. oh daddy ! i consider that very anti-social! i thought you knew i was anti-social. you've got four in there. i know i'm back to four little pieces! green. mhm. and i need a red. not a red! please! red. aha ! it's ages since we played this game, i'd forgotten how clever at it he can be particularly when you're not ! oh, they don't like ? yes, they do that. he's very hard to actually know what they're supposed be like certainly around, but not round my ears. yeah. blue and red has somebody got blue and red, daddy? blue and red. blue, red. what's that one there, is that, oh it's just green and blue. ah that's looking a bit better! you've got the longest one now, i think. no! guess who has? me! mm mm why don't you just blue and yellow please christopher? where? just one blue and yellow in the middle. oh. shall i take it out? trying to drive yours up, spread on the table, not on the carpet, cos you he has to move everything on the carpet it's not so slippy . my go? er yes yes. it must be daddy's just done blue and yellow. green there are not very many greens around. no, haven't got many greens out. and yellow green, yellow please daddy? hello tiger! and everything in my ears is it a what have you found? these. leaves? i said these! these. what's these? it's only the bit of to stuffed down my ear hole. mum, your go. it's completely done in ! mm. i think he's gonna be sick of mine! yeah is that what you said, yeah? didn't say yeah. no ! he's not normally as bad as this! oh! yellow and blue, oh good, daddy come on, yellow and blue please. that's a bit anti-social mummy! very anti-social dear, and i love it! now daddy's got the smallest caterpillar. and so he deserves no and caterpillar i'll have that yellow and blue in the middle there dear sneaking off with that thank you. right. right don't get anything for me please, green and red alright. you want? i think i'll be a green. ooh! and a red as well, to go with i think. have another green i expect. two? he just cos i saved you a green there love. green ha! whoops a daisy! that's made a mess of table! the caterpillar's going into the microphone! excuse me microphone, could you just move! green here. green and blue there, you can have one of mine if you like. mum could you move the microphone out of the way? just make it twist round at the side and then it won't touch it. have i got the longest? who's got the shortest now? daddy, has got the shortest! mummy. is it me now? can't be many left can there? yellow and green. well done mummy! you're going to pinch the lot from me, not a lot i can do! only one from you dear just seems like a lot that's a lot! cos there's not much of your caterpillar left ! let's push him over here. i'll move these as well. pinch dad's, pinch the tail off yours as well you haven't got much to arrange anyway! i haven't bit of a long one that! bit of long one, but it might all disappear in one foul swoop when somebody takes these out of here your go please darling? no. oh is it my go? yep two greens. ! dad going to win tonight! that's it, has it finished? finished that's the end of the game. dad! i can't reach! i think mummy's won. oh here! how many have you got? don't know yet . twenty two. twenty two! and how many have you got daddy? eight. eight so , i've got two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight thirty! well done, so who's the winner? daddy. mummy is! mummy . who comes second? christopher! who comes last? daddy! daddy! we thought daddy was gonna win didn't we? well we did at the beginning, cos he said apologizing for being in that position did i? at the table. i'm glad you got that! i've been beaten! erm up! right, what's gonna happen next then? i don't know, this exciting afternoon that we're spending! it'll soon be tea time won't it tim? will you want any tea? you will he's nodding. is it hot cross bun day today ? hot cross bun day today. does tim like hot cross buns? yeah did last week didn't you? i'll try not to burn them this week! do you like hot cross buns tim? no! you don't want hot cross buns? oh! oh! do you want them cold? i want to go now! pardon? no, i don't want no . not on this day no. if you were given the choice what would you like to eat? or didn't to have anything to eat? only bread! just bread. just bread alright bread and jam. and what about the other big boy? do you want anything or not? do you think it will make you sick? toast? you don't mind some toast and marmite? no. mm a big yawn! just go to bed. . well go to the toilet, you might , away you go that's allowed. what would mummy like to eat? you like hot cross buns they . i don't like hot cross buns, i only bought them don't you? because i thought liked them! so daddy, you'll be consuming four hot cross buns ! i'm not having to consume four hot cross buns, thank you very much! i'm not that keen on them. i bought them specially on friday, i thought oh . what are these? hot cross buns. isn't it wonderful having a family you never know what sickness is gonna strike you down next! well everybody seems so well yesterday didn't they? well as much, so they didn't yesterday never know. afternoon. never know i might . well that's what i was wondering that's why i said go out into fresh air, in the hopes that they might shake off the bug i don't think it works like that, do you ? i ought to go and catch last time it was horrible! i know. got another day off work already had more days off work this year last year. in the whole time yeah. mm you can't help it, if you're ill, you're ill! absenteeism in our department higher than average. is it?. and they obviously don't think caused by pressure. if you've got your as what? my ! i says, my illnesses haven't been caused by pressure have they? oh i see yeah. been caused by bad results and redundancies. yeah. but i mean if you're puking up everywhere you can't obviously go into work can you? no. it's not as if you can stagger in like when you've got a heavy cold, at least yep. you can stagger in and look gormless! at least you didn't catch the chicken pox, that's something. we were gonna ring your mum and dad weren't we? can't be bothered ! a very depressed ! he'll be screaming,yo you know, he wouldn't let you touch the phone or something!not tonight. what happens tonight? i'm just gonna, i'll to stay here, shall i? no , it's okay. see how he perks up after this. what is it tonight, do you know? no i don't. no idea? no idea just see expect it's on the notices or send a . no because they always always . going in. have you got the notice? there's loads of stuff in there that been given to you. was there? oh well. stuff for the agm and stuff for the room at the agm er minutes from something or other to you from june what would that be? i don't know actually. there's no second non-related to that there's a question of council members, i there's about seven. how we doing, we're a week in advance though aren't we here? there's another week to go. you alright? do you want another lie down on the settee? you've done very well for an hour or so. yeah very well! there's a tune there we need to sort o , sort out. what are we gonna do with you? what would you like to do tim? shut your eyes and go to sleep. shall we put your 'jamas on and put you to bed? no! no, i don't want to do that! ha! well i hope we're all raring to go in the morning. what were we going to be doing in the morning if you've had the ? it's story time in the morning. is it? lovely! in the afternoon i meant to go swimming with christopher, but i don't think we're going swimming i think that's definitely off! with christopher! mum! hello! tomorrow's swimming. that's what i'm just saying to daddy. yeah. tomorrow's swimming. but i don't think you'll be well enough to go swimming. i don't think you'll be fit to swim, do you? i'll be even better tomorrow. well, you'll have to be very better tomorrow before we went swimming. do you think he'll be well enough to go to school? i don't know the debate is on whether you'll go to school, let alone whether you go swimming! perhaps after a night's sleep he'll be okay? so for tea tim is christopher's having i don't know. bread, toast? do you want a bit of toast sweetie, tim, erm christopher? i want hot cross bun. he wants hot cross bun. what do you reckon to that then mummy? dry hot cross bun he could have ! half a bit. yeah just have a little bit of hot cross bun, yeah? may i have some ? you want lots of hot cross bun? yeah, one hot cross bun. you're not feeling sick then? no. you're not gonna sick it all back while daddy's in charge tonight ! i dunno, i think i'll resign if that's the case! or for you, resign from church council you can't resign and use that one! and resign from being a daddy! are you going anything? you'll divorce no. me! no. oh good! resign hand in my notice. it will be expected! ooh ooh!ooh! mum! mummy you can't play cos i'm back! did you hear something? can i have a hot cross bun? no, i'm just gonna read it! come on! you don't need it, no that's alright then we'll just have it there in case! oh! so what would you like to eat darling, cos you don't like hot cross buns? me, no, i'm not into hot cross buns, i'll have erm bread? erm yes please, i'll have a salad sandwich please. i'll have ham or chicken roll or something like that. are you making it again then? not this. this is about the fifth meal you've made ! do you mind? i don't mind. there's not a lot we can do really is there, if i'm sitting here with this child? play something. pardon? a game. you want to play a game? what would you like to play? er perhaps you can look at a book? no! here's one. don't want that one! you don't want that one! ha! what would you like? oh! what about the big one with the words in? something nice to look at? yeah . we can put that on the table and gaze at it together. and there we are. which page shall we look at? i know, we'll play i spy right? don't want to! don't want to play i spy, no. just look at it. oh look at the cat! on the mat down there look, with the wool he's going to sleep. somebody fast asleep in bed there, that's just what i'd like to be right this minute. mummy where's where's somebody fast fast asleep? here in the bedroom with the book. we'll just looking at the big book together do you want to come and join us ? yes. come on then there's a chair. mum back! we don't sit! want this? yes i want sit here. right. i can see a spider. where? my tummy where? . where? going to spider it's under under the stairs, in a cupboard. what did you say? a spider, we're looking for now. i can't see any spiders. no, well you got to look hard! there's a spider on the page, now can you see a spider in the picture? look under the stairs. yes, i can see one. very hard. can you see it tim? no no just off hanging over the welly boots when somebody puts their feet in the welly boots they get a bit of shock! the spider goes in. i can see a fly as well can you see the fly? it's over there. that's right, there it is and there's the other one. shall we turn over this and see what we can find. oh this this page makes me laugh! what have we got? a duck in the washing. a duck in the washing, that's it. and what else? and somebody with a pan on their head! like norman. like norman, yes. let's hope they can get that one off! but daddy's looking a bit worried, he's doing the washing up. and mummy's smiling in at him from the outside, look she's hanging the washing out pretending not to notice what's going on. daddy's having a ca , chaos going on in there! it's a good job our daddy's better at things than that. oh no, look buns are going off on the floor everywhere! this one's got plate plate smashed. what else have we got? oh look what happening to the cat on the top of there! see the cat? right on the top of cupboard. it's na that tasted like orange. mm, it's probably your orange coming back. mm mm mm mm. that's all you've had all day isn't it really? a drink of orange well since you were sick. i had a bit of dinner. okay, i'll point to something round here and you've gotta try and find it on the picture bulb. is it on the ceiling or not? well what do you think? yes it's not on the ceiling. it is on the ceiling. yes it is bu mm mm, aha. to the plates . duster, want to find a duster? there is no more. aha, i can see one. i can't where? oh yes, and polishing things up there there's the polish and the iron. where's the iron then? next to the polish look, there. i think they need to empty their bin don't you? where is it? i can see that bin. where, oh there. no. where's the hoover? mum, when you mm. talk about the hoover mm. i don't know if it's a train hoover oh yeah ! or there aren't many train hoovers left though are there darling? no. torn! just one left now. i just tore it! one left there's one left mum. woh! cups. the cups are there they are! teaspoon. teaspoon where's the spoon? there's two teaspoons there and one in the cup. oh i can see your cups! there on the sink. oh so can i look! and all the juice gone on the floor. what about match in there, anybody seen the matches? where are the matches in the main picture? where's the matches? can you see it? yep. where? where? ah, you'll have to look. but which picture is it that one or that one? what do you mean? that there your side yeah. on this side o match box. i can see it now. can you see it? where? just there , oh this is a nice picture! and the no that! oh where is it? i can see the tap. the channel. where's the channel? channel, somebody digging. oh there we are, look, he's dropped it now why has he dropped the look at that! what, cos why? cos look what he's being shown. a worm! a worm, he doesn't like it, being picked up like that does he? do you like picking up worms? no . no. when i was at the , i put worms in a jam jar. there's a wasp and a bee in here, that's a bee and that's a wasp. oh yeah bit difficult to know which is which, that must be the wasp do you think? yeah, that's bigger, and that's and that's the bee. a little one. and where's the pram. i can see it! oh yeah, well done tim. and look at the teddy falling out! ah! where? there, she's throwing the teddy out look. and she's throwing the teddy out. oh no, what's happened to this man's paint? it's going to be a bit of a disaster there! cos we've got the agm in two weeks time mm. and we voted all these people that are here what type of this? well you just it doesn't matter. you just come along don't yo you find out what we do with all the money, and you find out who's doing what, and who's doing you know? mm. it's it's quite exciting really! if you ! but i've these little things you couldn't show me something alright you see, cos it's we're confusing her now cos this is where we're going not towcester alright? this page? this, yes we're taking over a couple of when, when's that then? places in leicestershire. when is it? and we're going on a coach so you don't you have to worry no. oh! and it'll be really rather dolly, we'll have a little holiday you see together and we sort of go teaching together and how long is it for? it'll on a friday afternoon, friday night yeah. you know, five, half five-ish. and what do you do? and come back on a sunday and afternoon. you've been before? well we've never been this place before, but we've been on a similar do. and what do you do then? well, we have yeah. all sorts of things organised yeah, and pull out some special people are coming to do some christian teaching for us, you know somebody from the yeah. and then there's gonna be silly things like walks, you know and lots of play! oh yeah. and lots of and lots of fun activities so they go and they do little trips out and have they got you know, to the localities, you know? and you get to know people, that basically oh yes, yes! it, and you can relax in these is it amazing little sitting rooms! i can ha , you know i don't know, if i go over there now to and i said please show me this no, i'm not! you see everything i won't go , especially now since he's retired! he doesn't wanna know! i won't go anywhere with, i don't want to go without him! well you tell him! i can't we want him here , we don't wa , we don't want yes. just you. unless i feel terrible about it! we can offer you , you know, a nice twin room! twin room. i thought it was lovely of him! a twin room ! seat belt, oh it doesn't tell you on that one wait a minute bargain break look at the price! look at the price! ah,pension. that would be it, wouldn't it? retired yes, forty pound a go, see! that's only about sixty ah! pound for a whole weekend in beds, breakfasts is it really! evening meal how much? the lot. in that beautiful and it's a very beautiful place. beautiful house. and you'll get a separate room is it? to yourselves. do you have a separate room? yeah yeah , oh yeah. mm. really? all in to oh come on, get yourself organised book yourself in and yeah cos i cos i had you if i don't i ! we are bossy is the word! no good for me! i really think she's good for, but ooh i get out of breath but well you tell by the lakeside you know, it's like a big oh right! and then she's ! i know! i think she's got to know well enough that we've only got little . yeah. i know . yeah. mm. since, i mean when it was on the back i thought oh i don't know how you get used to each since he took the evening out and then he's different bloke yeah. i said to you you know yeah. and i said, he said no you're not being but sometimes i feel as though i am, you know, it's the change! no, you can't tell i wouldn't know, unless you said. i sit down to the table , and watch me , real men aren't like that are they?and it locks yeah. and some sit in, you know, it's locked. yes , yes. so i go , have a job to find it he just looks at me hard as nails. well he's not a party-goer really no, it's only cos he doesn't he's not. understand it. he's er he could do without this then! i suppose a little greek mythology did fit in really,lived with you as long you've lived with him really! yes ! here we are two role forms. i'll leave you to it oh just do you have to tell gerald that do you think i'll be able to fill these in? hello dot! hello! we're here again! what's that? it's alright don't worry about it. i say what have you got on your she's taping it all, she holds it against you, you see, so she's trying to blackmail ! oh! it's all to do with language in the nineteen nineties jean. oh! and this man came to the door , and he went to get the hold belt, that should just have a tape recorder on conversation just throughout the week so it's getting all sorts of rubbish going in there, and it's all do with erm you know people and the erm wives and language of the nineties. go and get a drink! i shall move, yes dear. so i get a free twenty five pound worth of marks and spencers erm gift vouchers which . what twenty? yeah. have to cut costs . bribery and corruption! i hear you've got two twentieth century ! i'll do anything for money and chocolate! i hear you've got two twentieth century oh right yeah well i was so worn out what have you got? that the pages are always sticky with sellotape and so on. actually it must be quite interesting looking at the development of language as time goes on. mm well that, that's all, that's for? it'll be interesting in the year two thousand and ninety to look back and see what we used to do in the nineteen nineties. i should think i'll be dead just then! i don't think i'll be around then well you won't somehow! be around but it'll be fascinating cos you'll be recorded for life june! that's it ! and i'll sorry i'm going to speak to dot, i was just going to speak to dot and i'm oh! i shouldn't talk to her if i were you. no ! say something sensible. yes love i am going to say something sensible ! come to tell you alright. how many little do you have? it varies considerably you can have eight you can up to fourteen except fifteen why, how many do you want in ? no, it's alright cos someone's rung up from home,say be in eight o'clock, so she wants to do something. right. she said ooh, you know can i invite a couple of friends, can i invite sort of you know, people back to lunch but when it's sort of the list i mean, cos i i'm not invite . well i've got to know, cos sort of adult as well, i mean you included as i mean it's to put getting a bit long? yes ! i'd invite them yes, i mean it's her sort of age. old!of having it! well that's you know what i mean, it's got the . it's more cosy! and at home. if she wants her sister , no, yeah but on the day no, on the day when is it? can we go? erm i know that, but will you make it stick . yes, oh well. can you be a path finder leader on the sunday because no,! no, you know what i mean? but, if you can you know agree to tell him and the but i'll find them, and you won't have any bother. oh i know, but i mean sort of there, i don't know she would actually when it comes to it, but if we see her up there cos we can do the it's nice to see erm michael and sophie yeah. actually it's quite a cosy group, so they probably know each other by yeah. now then. yeah. looks a bit agitated! but anyway that's somebody that would would be a few telling everyone about her mum and dad when they and erm how she talked to her mum about that, and it helped her . but her mum i mean i know cos i mean, i know her mum. she well vaguely, but are they moving to to be with someone else or i don't know, i mean i don't but perhaps he doesn't want to change till cos she'll yeah but she so whether they think, well so it's after six months, well i dunno. is that alright? they were, they were really nice. i hate being sick and one thing another well, it turned out yeah you do. yeah. sophie was supposed to be doing the chorus so i grabbed mary, and said come with me on the half way through, called sophie why are you doing all the talking dot and not mary! cos she cos she's supposed to be andy! oh ! so, sarah had a job to do, but it wasn't, sort of, till the end, and we're gonna finish too quickly because normally we have it like paul and helen being really with it and look there's sort of upward oh no! and then down below there's helen you know christopher and yeah then laura's with him. but none of them turned up to today so actually can you really face the from the other pathfinders mm cos she'll see you there. cos we're having, not problems, but at school it really it's unfortunate because she was put in a third year, and she's only a third year now and she was on a third year class last year. who else is there with her in there? they're all well we've actually chose the brownies now her age. yeah. yeah. but it really hit her this year, we felt quite disgruntled yeah. that i really but i mean last year still not finished ! she's really funny ! so we had a laugh ov , well said he when he woke up, he said day one you can do three on one day ! mind you, she's like that, better get when you're feeling keen i said, you can do a lot and then they're rather weed, i know my two even . erm rather than i suppose cos he's done that at school yeah, that's right! they come home they've gotta snuggle up in bed with a book yeah. you know, or patrick's into psalms , she loves poetry psalms ,i thought ! why not! i used to do it, oh what psalm is it she ? i've forgotten, about being in mud was it a ? ri , she did it . yeah. but as they do, it's gonna hit her cos it's not year that it doesn't help, see if she's in a third year class, she was always as she is now, in the top of that, but even that's right. when she was only a second year therefore that means, she's not given enough work, but i mean i know what you mean. she's sort of got with children then because this erm testing, they've got to a school work outside curriculum. they've go , that's it,the they do have to take them on to ta the next i mean yeah well she's sort of with the third year and will admit she's so fed up! but i, i'm oh yeah. there's a lot of ! i mean i'm glad she's er september , and an august birthday, i would of hated to have gone well i'm glad of that my children cos all yeah. mine are like that, and it does mean that they can relax you know about work and everything yeah. cos you know they're a million times ahead. they've got an extra . yeah haven't got to worry. all of them so when her class came up, cos she'd been with the class right from nursery and when she put into this you know, with the double third year, cos they go upstairs for third and fourth year and they really do classes below she didn't know anything in the class! no! i mean er she , they weren't no i suppose er it's a bit hard on th , the kid, sort of, work wise, expecting her to be her to be er ahead, but not but friends means such a lot don't they, at that age? yeah. they see . oh right yeah. we've got , we've still not got it yet! oh, you've got the ! well we had, we had it two weeks ago yes, and they were away too. they were away. , gonna be away another two weeks by the sound of it. but when she gets back yeah. i don't know, i must talk to marilyn about it. shame really. there again it's if we give oh, oh are you? we'll give oh! we're giving it to her. ooh ! she's got the , she won't . oh yes, i don't feel she's despised in any way. your clothes are in here some of them. me. seem to have clothes scattered everywhere in this house at the moment! yeah! this is a busy day! it is a busy oh! have to bring this. what's exactly? it's this. yeah we don't need that today, you don't need that till friday, so it's okay. i know. how are you doing love, have you been to the toilet christopher? oh mummy! sick it's the same one! it's got money in it's got money in i, i haven't played it have i? haven't played this. no. i haven't played it. no, it's a bit difficult for you that one. but i expect we could try. i want you how. we could try to mum! one day when you play with me and we'll play against christopher. right this minute now cos it's quarter to nine already, we need to be getting going to school considering we weren't going five minutes ago and now we are! do you feel alright still? yeah. my tummy hurts. does it? do you think it might be best if we stayed at home yeah! today? what i want what do you think christopher? i want to go out! i know you do! you're fine aren't you? ooh we haven't got you any socks! ah! ah! i want nip upstairs and get you some socks. if you're feeling okay look, you have a, get started on those and i'll help you get a quick quick change. did you stop me . pardon? mummy,! your tummy hurts. mum is this right ? well listen, i think i think he will have a day off today because he certainly wasn't very well yesterday and then go again the day after. but not me. pardon? not me. not you, what? have a day off? no, oh erm i know, cos you're alright aren't you? yeah. i wanna go, i'm going to school tomorrow but i'm going to come home for lunch. yeah is that okay? and we'll and give it a miss today go to school then come round it have lunch. it does. that's true don't want to on his birthday. you can't and i want to go to school. a a you can't so did i. are you just he can't go your bag because it's in your erm, drawers! mm, right come on then. i ,i , it's only one drawer! oh right. don't tell me any secrets will you? no. it's a secret! alright well don't tell me. but what did he say? he i do , and, ah he's talking about bags in drawers so far, so that's alright. i'm still hurting! nothing in the you've been very good. bag. you're still hurting, oh dear! there's nothing in the bag! i think we'll have a quiet day today between us. what about this library story time? are you capable of getting to the library christopher? so we take chri , timothy to the story time and then you stay with me and we'll potter around the shops and the little library. actually that'll be quite good cos that'd be nice to see whether you can get out and about without keeling over! and then you can come home and have a rest when you've been. mum! yeah. . i don't go to school . to school you mean? i thought we might just keep an eye open for margaret and beth beth! walking up the road, we can tell them. ooh! oh! if we see her walking up the road we can tell her, and if we don't, we'll give them a ring later on. oh! there you go, arm in. that's james! is it?if it was james to give them a message at school. it might be, i don't think it is james. certainly somebody singing and dancing. er no it isn't james. no! mhm. but i, i even saw my plectrum. did you, where? it's not in my guitar. oh where is it then? it's i see this. be on the floor somewhere, it usually is! come on pop an arm in here. we found our bag ! i don't think we'd lost it had we? no ! it is cor! on the floor! mm. what bag's that for? well we took erm mums and toddler erm what's it's? tea towels innit, on thursday. i went there then he won't be with the church i went to scramblers. yes you did, that was yesterday when we went to church and scramblers, but christopher didn't go to cos he wasn't very well was he? that's ! it was a good job i didn't go because i would be sick there. yeah, we didn't want you being sick in . and you went because home! it's a good job i went home cos i got sick at home. you did didn't you? it's not in here and it's not in the guitar. good and then you went fe , worse again in the afternoon didn't you? it's not in the guitar oh!over here. i think we'll just have a nice quiet day today erm there's a little bit of a snag because i don't quite know what we're going to do about all these children that like to go to the library. we usually have them all in the car. where's my plectrum now? i don't know where your plectrum is, i expect it's on the floor somewhere waiting for my hoover to get it! no! i want it for my guitar! well it's alright i'll keep my eyes open and if i see it i'll pick it up. no, i want to spin it. have to remind me cos what does he want? i have to go do on the floor right, have you done your teeth this morning sunshine? and i haven't. you haven't, right well go and do yours then, then we'll know it's done. he he hasn't. yes he has, he's just been up there to do them cos he thought he might be going to school now he's decided he's not so we'll put the school clothes away again. it's all very tricky to know isn't it? whether to go or not. it's and it's a bit of a an exhausting day if you don't feel too well. mum why did you bring some more clothes? i didn't whoops! these are yesterday's. yesterdays from erm, when you laid down on . i'm gonna see where my plectrum my plectrum no, it's not in there. have we seen margaret coming along yet? i've not seen them. no, i haven't either. you keep your eyes open, see if you can see her. will you see her from down there? tim would you like to come and do your teeth? please. not yet! why do they call her margaret? well that's her name, ha! i expect her mum called it her, when she was a little baby. right tim, watch my lips please could you go upstairs and clean your teeth? go right over there oi! how's this and put it over there. come on love. no! what do you mean no? look, sit with the i'm going to . well do you need me upstairs, or can you manage? cos i've got the brush down for you. brush down here? no! down off the holder it's on the sink ready with the the toothpaste on it. can you manage? you come! you need me do you? up we go then. you lift me! lift you? that's pathetic! i'll hold your hand. there you go. wrong way! ah! i, i was going to the yes toilet! i know, you're as scatty as mummy you are! i need to go toilet! you need to go to the toilet? well then let's go there. i do toilet and wanted a wee! okay, do a wee . what a nuisance! do you have to put it on tight? that's it do it up again. yeah come in. come on wee! is the wee coming? i do needed a wee! you did yes. good! right can we get your teeth done now do you think? yeah it hurts! what's that then? this. everything hurts in our family at the moment doesn't it? it hurts! it's just the pocket really let's turn you round a bit see if it hurts it's just the way it is i'm afraid see if we can open it up and spread it out a bit. them. how's that? i only today then i didn't have it like that! see if there's any rubbish in the bins shall we? oh must of emptied these fairly recently, it's not too bad is there lots in that one? no. tip that one into there. there we are. mum ! hello. look! i've found a book! it's the pegs in there. and what's fallen off? these. well not all trees lose their leaves. why kind of leaves it what leaves never ever well they just sort of drop off when they die and then grow some new ones but they don't drop them all off like all some of the other trees do in the autumn. they don't, sort of, do it all together. they can't but it's nice i know. and it's they do come up cos then you can see them below can't yeah. you? that's true and it looks very fresh in the spring. mummy! hello. i can't walk! you can't walk? you hold my hand, it'll help. you don't want to hold my hand? no! oh! i like your teddy see if he can walk. but mum, look at this one is he asleep? starting! oh yeah. you'll have to have a look on the way down and then pass the buds they should be coming now cos it's nearly spring well it is spring really. it's not winter? well it's supposed to be officially winter until the twenty first which is soon. it is. fifteenth at the moment six days but spring is really just when new things begin to grow and they're definitely beginning to grow now. how are you go on this road. mum! mm. i like it when it's people's birthdays. do you? i like it when it's people's birthday too. car doesn't matter when it's yours or somebody elses, it's just fun isn't it? there's a car over there. right. yeah but when it's mummy. i quite like it when it's somebody elses, i must say. mind you, i shall enjoy mine tomorrow. cos, when it's yours you get presents don't you? yes. mum can i the ! go on then. but when it's not your birthday and you go to somebody's who? birthday but they won't if you go in there they might give you a bag. that's it. whose bag? i'm sure you'll get a bag at my party tomorrow. we will. whose bag is it? well they're for the dustbin men. well you wouldn't is teddy sad? cos we visit you yeah. at home. oh dear! look! oh he does look sad doesn't he? because we wouldn't get one have to cheer him up a bit! whoops a ! and we it'll be at your house anyway. look there's the dustbin man! it is a dustbin man but he's not come to our road yet. we will live in a dustbin man. this house so that would we wouldn't get it because we would be able to have it one day wouldn't we? postman pat oh a ladybird chri , tim! christopher's found a ladybird look walking along the fence. oh yeah! sweet isn't she? how yeah. many legs? can't count! can you count? there's supposed to be six i think three at each side and then there's some feelers and things knocking about a bit there. used to his head. no! how many spots then? what? one, two, three three. four, five oh. six seven! seven spots? ah? don't know. mummy. she'll walk up your nose if you get that close! it's a lady. she'll never hello! go up your morning! ladybird what's there? is what the excitement's about! the what? the ladybird is what the excitement's about. oh that's nice! and this is . a ladybird. whoa! come on! ah! it's quite warm out isn't it? it is warm isn't it? oh dear! mum! yeah. have a place like that? no, not everyone only the people who are foolish enough to save up. it's nice that isn't it? yes. oh look, somebody's chopped a daffodil head off! where? here look. isn't that sad! where? can you see it in the grass. one's fallen over. oh, i think somebody's picked it and thrown it down. there's one it in the . mhm. isn't there? yep. are they i got more but not when you in here. why is it water and not here why is water there and not here? well probably it's not dried up over there but it has here. why? well lots of things dry up water don't they? the sunshine dries it up and sometimes it depends on what it's use how deep it is as to whether it dries up. oh ha! boo! oh here's the dustbin men doing their bit. where? here. is that dustbi bin men? he's collecting all the rubbish bags into a big pile. mum, is it lunch time? no love, it's not lunch time. are you hungry? i think you must be getting better, myself. i'm hungry because i haven't had lunch. well you didn't eat anything yesterday did you, except half a hot cross bun which is a funny thing to eat, but never mind! because i wanted to having another one but i you fell asleep! oh ! i didn't! you did, you went were fast asleep! you ate your hot cross bun and then you fell fast asleep on the settee. who? this dinner. oh yes! are you alright? yes it's ready for anything! yeah he seems to be. mummy, my head hurts! your head hurts? over there. oh dear! i thought that might happen as we got a bit nearer to the library. well not to worry cos we're nearly there so we can have a sit down you got a headache. you sit down and have a rest, and we'll pop in the chemist and get some calpol, cos we're running out. and a dose of calpol will sort you out and a nice rest when we get home. good job yes. we didn't go to school after all, isn't it? what? good job we didn't go to school after all, cos you'd of run round in the playground, you'd of been shattered!oops, too late! what's that bin? i don't know it's a bin! well why is the bin over there? i don't know, it looks as if it's got some grit in it for when it gets icy i suppose you have to put he grit down there. but there's only one plate mum in the ground. but teddy's still mm. sad! teddy's still sad? i don't know what you're gonna do to cheer him up. no. you'll have to give him lots of love. didn't he? he normally gets to . this door's open. mhm. i can . did you? another dream? mm. what was that? a funny one this time, or a scary one? it was a dream that mrs was there again. mrs ! mm. well what did mrs say ? it's not about her. it was the morning then coming . oh i see ! and what did she do? was it a nice day? everything go funny? what? sometimes in dreams everything goes most peculiar doesn't it? but it wasn't very sad. no, it was a pleasant dream. sometimes dreams are quite pleasant, you think, ooh i like that dream, i'd like that one again. it never quite works out like that. no because you forget it in the end oh yeah lots of dreams like that. that's right . because when you remember it, it might come again. yeah ! then you remember it and it starts to come a bit true doesn't it? mm mm. well i don't think they come true really it just sort of feels real. mm. sometimes you can wake up and you think, ooh that was very real and then when you think about it you think, ooh that was most odd! couldn't possibly of been real! i think the night was full of dreams for all sorts of people . but mummy that i sort of thought adele would act . but really you were in bed. yeah. mm mm. but sometimes when you're not very well and you get very very hot you get funny dreams, i think you had a very funny dream in the middle of last night didn't you? do you remember? you were very frightened, we had to get you up read you a story have a cuddle put the light on. i couldn't remember when, i don't think. it was something like half past two in the morning! anyway it didn't matter cos you were very good, and you went back to sleep again in the end then you didn't wake up till after daddy had gone to work this morning! no because then, i just looked over all those things that i went and . oh right. and then, i knocked at the very weak leg. aha. and when i looked at the clock, i was on time and . didn't matter, we were glad you had a good long sleep, cos it makes you mummy ! feel better when you sleep . now what is timothy doing mummy! may we ask? oh dear! come on or else you'll miss the story, it's nearly time. only two minutes to go! i'm ready to have a right, come on story then. from,! what you doing? i can't do it! well walk round! i can't do it mummy! well you did it the other day but then you didn't have a teddy in your hand did you? you hold the teddy, cos i have a teddy in my hand. i'll hold the teddy. and you have a i can't and down we go. alright there? yeah, i did it! there you go. there's more there. i know, i don't know what they're doing there, do you? they're doing it there, and they go up the way. well they're digging everywhere round here at the moment. they're supposed to be giving us a face lift of .. what do they do with ? don't know . mummy, come come here mummy! we'll just give our library books in. oh dear, i think he's got a bit sad! there doesn't seem to be anybody here now. share that one! alright, shall i hold this? you hold that. you want me to hold the teddy? gonna take your coat off? mum. mhm. where are the ? i don't know where they all are must of all disappeared! why does it say fire up there? why does it say what? go over round here! fire engine? i don't know. oh right then. here you go look, with rosie she's ready look. we'll worry about our books in a minute. you take the teddy. you can cheer him up, there you are, have a finger. oh, there's the other lady look! have a nice time. mummy. don't forget to cheer that teddy up, it's all sad. morning! poorly small boy? i've got a big poorly boy. yeah. well he was poorly yesterday, he was a little sick and we don't know whether he was going that's mine! to make it or not today but he's half with us today! oh you're not feeling very well? i thought we'd come for a little walk and yeah. down the road. says he's got a headache so we'll have go and to stock up not very well. on the calpol and then we'll be, er yes. we had a very poorly in oh did you? yes as well, yes oh mark's oh yes ian. ian. yes. was he, did he go hot and sick and and oh well it was the same thing then. and diarrhoea and yeah. oh that's encouraging! get granddad did have a look at his ears but erm he just had to dropped it erm oh course granddad knows all about these things doesn't he? i mean, he said his ear hurt, and ha , course that's oh! what he said, so yeah, christopher said everything was hurting basically yeah. so we just dosed him up on calpol yeah. and he slept most of yesterday afternoon. yeah, he was he was sleeping in his room mm. and in night we're all sneak in my bed we're all with ridiculous dreams and goodness knows what! yeah, he had some weird ones as well oh. yes! cos we went out on saturday night he was absolutely terrified at yeah. half past two in the morning, we had to have a story and mm. relax! yes it was sort of my library book's gone down the back of my cupboard mummy! ! i said, so's my library down there ! no, we have that, and from tim, we have and, and why have you taken ribbons out of your hair mummy!with him ! something about blue machines with tim. most odd! oh did you? yeah. yeah. but mm. he hasn't been sick no. so ian was almost sick all over us! the duvet, i'd just taken back from the dry cleaners! and it costs a bomb to have your i know ! duvet dry cleaned so oh thank you very much! sorry, we're just standing here talking ! oh! now, do you think we can make it to the post box let's go and have a try shall we? mhm. i thought we'd do it in the fresh air rather than in the car, cos it just means what is that? oh yes, attached to it, and you've just had yourself taped by the way. have we? what for ? a little man turned up friday afternoon, after they got home you know how we're very susceptible to these market research types? oh yes. and erm it's all to do with language in the nineteen nineties to go to be transcribed for posterity and used to see the change and development of languages oh i see. and the dictionary people so i have to tape myself conversing with people for a week . which is all very entertaining! yes. and sometimes i, sort of ! things like that, but i'm sure they'll sort it out. i presume that's why it's for a week, you know? yeah. out of twenty tapes surely they'll be one that wouldn't will ! oh dear! we'll make our way down to the post box first, and then we'll come back and get bits and pieces on the way christopher. goes through phases of being quite quite boisterous yes. and then other times of being mm. pathetic! but that's probably due to yesterday. he's still hot yeah. but hasn't got tim's only been you know, it sounds like it's it's mi , erm ian's had that's right. the full works, and we've had yeah. semi-works, followed yeah. by just a pathetic little effort mm. really, for me, i suppose. yeah. but martin's been alright has he then? he's just a little bit hot, but he's not yeah. not really . i wonder what it was? did granddad have i don't know. any er no on the matter? no but ian won't have said she'll frighten me. yeah. i think it's their teeth makes yeah. they're really strong looking but yeah. no. ! we just sort of stuck cold flannels all over them yeah. and cooled them down. yeah. seemed to be the only thing to do to them. come on then, we'll go out? yep. bye! mum where's their dog? erm usually they leave the dog tied up somewhere. right, in we go, rice krispies we need want something else? i'm not sure what else, i'll have a look on the list. mum! yep. there's plenty of spare batteries at home. there's lots of spare batteries at home. which ones are you thinking of? the two little ones. where? the two little things,the bedroom. yeah, well there's gonna be lots of batteries in the little bedroom because this this machine needs lots of batteries. ooh, we in a traffic jam! , it's not a traffic ! people jam! a people jam! we need some ribena thank you. we've only got can you manage that? squash at home. we have haven't we? shall i then? yep. erm have we got the rice krispies, i can't remember? used to be here. no, they must be down there. mum , look at that ! it's got to have batteries though. ooh it's huge that one! it's gotta a with it. it's got a with it? oh! what we could really do with is an easter egg with an egg cup with it. cos we've broken our egg cups the other day, do you remember? we're a bit short on egg cups at home. can you guess what mummy's done? we just need one more egg cup don't we? who's forgotten the list then? me! just check my pockets. one more eggs cup,. oh, here we are all is not lost! oh we only need rice krispies in here then, then the rest of the things in the green grocers. i look for rice krispies. mm. do you know where they keep the ri , oh it's down here look, there. oh yeah. shouldn't keep changing everything round. is this is brand isn't it mum? please! forgotten now. do you want some rice krispies? well it looks like there's one box of rice krispies here. but, it's not the right kind. i think the rice krispies are up there aren't they, in that, box there? have a look in here. no i can't. can't reach that lot can't. so we'll have to find somebody to help us. and what's what are they for? dunno, but it says, it said about at the rice krispies. mm, that was useful hang onto that. ha! there's the man. right, we need a rice krispie box. that was a man. yeah but he was a shopper so person in charge let's go and see if we can find someone. here are mum a shopper a person like us shopping. shall we speak to someone else? i can't see a soul today! somebody's apart from the till people. what's that pardon? there? i go down. yep, they're down. rice krispies here is there anybody available to get us down some more rice krispies? we can see them up the top but they'll help you i'll get someone . thank you. yeah, it's me that's the problem i, ha ha grey doors. grey doors? yeah. what are you getting ? i don't there's anybody in here either. but the lights are on. i know. oh, service with a smile, he's probably gone out for a coffee! let's g let's go back to the cashier and see what we can do. otherwise i think we'll do without our rice krispies! what? i think we'll do without our rice krispies, if we can't manage to get some. what did you say? i said, we'll have to do without our rice krispies, if we can't manage to get any. no joy! i'll have look for you. thank you. can you just all move forward a bit please no. no? well, i've got they've all skived off! we'll get it before i go on my break, is that alright? yeah. come over here love, cos we're not in the queue. mum, they all will look higher. yes. where's the gone? round the corner. excuse me , what here? that's where they should be, but we can see them lurking up the top there there's no i can't. here are, there's some here. oh, there's some here! oh, if i'd known that i'd have well, thanks . it's alright. right, we're off now. thank you very much. somebody must be unpacking rice krispies ready. of these though must put that out. well we don't need to put that on, we'll just take that home with us. can i and hear it goes. will you catch it? course there's ! ninety eight, thank you. thank you. you ready then?mum. yeah? where's ann now? ann's probably back in the library, or in in a different shop we usually shop together in different sometimes i go in different shops, sometimes we go in the same ones. mind that dirt love! and tomorrow's here ! yes. lovely morning isn't it? fifty four please? thank you very much , do want the four p? do you want the four p? thank you very much. thank you. they haven't come in yet oh no, right thank you. she said there's a delay on them but the any that went, they'll definitely be in tomorrow. tomorrow? cos it's not . er well okay but she said two or three days which was about a week ago! in she said there'd been a a delay. okay, right, thanks, anyway erm, sugar-free calpol please? calpol two forty three please? thank you. we had that photograph we decided to get lots and lots of copies of it well they still haven't come back. what haven't come back? the copies of the photograph. pictures. mm we had some copies you remember we had a very nice photograph of erm us as a family? out we go. and we decided to get lots of copies for all our friends that we haven't seen for a long long time so i asked if they could do them for me but i thought they would be back by now, well they should of been back ages ago actually! but they're not yet! go and see if we can get some tomatoes from here. kiwi fruits don't you like kiwi fruits. no? do i like these? well you always say you don't but i don't know whether you've ever tried it properly, really i think it's just the thought of it that you don't like. buy me one i know i don't like it till i've had a bit as a drink. oh right. pineapple it was, that you had as a drink, that you didn't like. some cucumber. do we need any tomatoes? yes, we do need some tomatoes. would you like to get me some? pop them in there. i'll give give you that was a bag for the put bananas in. you're looking for nice well i don't need bananas in one. tomatoes need to go in a bag or else they'll roll about all the over the place see if you can spot, the small-ish ones, but not like that, see cos that's got a mark on it, we don't want that one. don't you want that one? er no, cos of that there look, see look for the nice healthy ones very small i'm trying because i don't want huge ones! no not that one,again. no no i think this'll do actually, we've got about five in there now. and i didn't put one haven't you found one yet? no. see whether you can find one. all the ones i pick up, are erm try this one oh no! look a bit moth-eaten don't they, these tomatoes? one got lots of them. mm. what about that one? let's have a look. yeah that'll do that's a nice one. right i don't think we need any more two pound and a penny thank you dear. thank you. thank you. thanks bye! bye dear! there's cider hello cider! yes, oh! got the tin? amusing little incident in quick saver! yes. we wanted our rice krispies, and mm. there was only one on a sort of opened pack and we could yeah see up in the tops there we could see this, sort of, box of rice krispies and down, so i went and toddled off to find somebody, and nobody in sight! eventually this dear girl gets herself off the cash desk right and where does she find them? another box were on the floor,i could of helped myself ! oh no ! i've done that actually. somebody, there was, yeah. there was a ladder, sort of, standing there so they must be re-filling the rice krispies yeah. they must of been in the middle of it. did you know? mm. no. no cottage cheese for lunch! no cottage cheese! oh dear! ! shall we have a little oh actually i'll just like, go round the corner and see if there's anything i can read tonight, i just fancy something to read. do you want to stay here and look at the books? i'm coming with you. no? you come with me then. not these,. mm this is an adult's books section. lots daddy might read. oh yes dad likes all sorts of things and mummy. that's a daddy. well they all are really. well it depends what you like really, there's all sorts of different stories. they're all daddy's because they've got da on. oh no, not necessarily da is for detective. dedective? detective. detective. detective, it's like a mystery, something is it? happens, and somebody has to sort out why it happened and who did it to them things like that. just fun really. let's see what we've got here. oh what a pity, i've read all those ones. is it important things? is it important? not really, just sort of helps you know what you what you're picking up off the shelf. what does that say? mum, what does that what does what say? wainwright. wa why? probably because he's an author or she's an author. he's an author. he, it says john wainwright, there we are if you want to pick them up by john wainwright, that's where they are. all on these shelves? all along here?this there's a sign on this, this shelf i think. mm different signs on different shelves. but the bottom ones haven't got one on! oh that's probably because they want you to look for yourself. can't remember if i've read this one or not. these go there. oh dear! sounds like martin. no, it sounds like ian. actually you're right, it does sound like ian ! . do you want to choose a book today? you choose. you choose a book. i've tried choosing one can't decide what i want, that's my trouble! there's loads in here mummy. mm. mummy. mm? started school i thought it was gonna be a bit i thought i wouldn't like it there but when i got there, i did like it mum. good! it's often like that isn't it? mm. you think you're not gonna like them, and then you do. are you missing school today? and wish you were there? jemima's in number five now. pardon? jemima's number five now. is she? she might be doing maths this morning. ah! you'll have to get back there tomorrow and get them all done. she doesn't catch you up. but she doesn't mind, cos i do . doesn't she? oh well, then you're alright. well i you do lots on each day do you? mm give them all a chance to catch up with you then. see if there's something down here that you could read we could play schools this afternoon. ah ah ah! sorry! what is here? oh! oh look, there's some dilley books dilley and the big kids. there's four stories in there. oh well what do you think? shall we have that one or keep i keep us going for a bit? arthur's loose tooth. look! what? oh dear! poor cider! i think she's got a paw caught in her lead, and she's sitting on it! poor can she sort it out? no, i went and . oh you went and got at her? oh. oh it's three then now mum. it's three dogs. i saw one go past there and one over there. the place is full of them isn't it? yes. these people that will have dogs! i don't mind if they're under control. yeah. i can't see anything that's not got too many pi , too many words on a page, can you? what are these like? oh look at the dogs!children. sorry ! but i don't like it. you don't like it? no don't like his hair. oh the ! isn't he? oh i didn't notice all that lot! i was looking at this one with the oh no, i'm not into that! no. spare something for them! yes. some people do their hair in strange fashions as well don't they? yes they do. too much like hard work! that's right. i think i'll probably read that. yes . i like the photograph books though do yes you? i do, yeah. oh matthew you're losing your arm up your sleeve! pull it out again. come here please. we must go up in the loft and find your clothes mm looks a little bit . mm, it does doesn't it? wait a minute, there's a read it yourself oh that's a simple read it yourself. i don't think we got that one. have we? i think there's some up there that you might be interested in so we'll say excuse me to martin. oh there's the happy families on the flo on the floor there, i love those! erm the window cleaner, these are quite fun cos they don't usually have too much reading on one page. oh this looks more like our thing christopher we could cope with this. mummy! ah ah ah ahhh! that one is the ,a crook! oh yes ! here. is he the,th the person that wrote those as well, as well ? yes. they're ones, they're usually very good really. yes. ahhh! hello, sausage! ahhhh! are there lots of these? wahhh! i think there are lots of stories. have you found one you like there? what have you got there? oh that looks good! sleeping beauty, do you want to try that one? i know that one already. you know it already, oh well. oh yeah not much point in having that then is there? here are martin. no, you have them,, i think you can try being sleeping beauty later can't you? the amazing spiderman, saves new york! i don't think we want that particularly. story time for boys. ahh! you can walk, holding onto one hand if you want to! yeah. oh! we've got one ahhh! like that haven't we? ho! what's that? tiger trouble! oh! that'll be one read, but we'd have to read it to you and it'll take us a long time! ah, no, no, no, no. i don't think so. no, no no no mm mm. well we're not doing very well here christopher between us! got this one then cos it's nearly the smallest. well i've got this one, what do you think to that one, my mum's a window cleaner? that looks like our theme doesn't it? no. see what we've got down here pig's wedding, what do you think that's like? ah ohhhh! mum, what about this one? looks fun! mummy! this one! yeah ! what about this one mummy? took cos i've . mum! mum , try that one. what, miranda the magnificent! oh, it looks quite fun! oh stop squeaking then! well you'd squeak if you were tired, like that wouldn't you? i was thinking of getting ! probably is, yeah! child excuse me! what do you think to the pig's wedding? oop, here they come, i think that's it, whether we think it or not! put these ones back you've made a big mess! they're coming now. hello, hello! and what have you got there? may we ask? what have you been doing? what's happened? what's been happening? one of the boys . what's happened? what have you been doing? oh, we bought ours! was it nice? what have you been doing? doesn't sound like a story to me! been making things on, what's this? did you have a story as well? did you like it? get loads of things, oh you've even got as well! don't let him loose ! that's why he's like that today. he wasn't very well yesterday. oh, sorry! that's alright. i'll just have your coat on shall we? mummy! here's mine. you're very lucky! teddy's cheered right up! teddy's very ! i'll get a it's a orange! i should eat those first. shall we pop those in your mouth? no. oh! only one! right. what did i have here. don't you like it? teddy likes it! teddy shall i hold that for you while we put and you your coat on? teddy wants you to hold him. are you enjoying that? teddy wants to have them . where you going? going to hold that? yes. you don't like it? you do like it but you're not holding it? wha , what can i do to d , do your things up? mum! just leave it open. would you like to go and sort the books out for me i'll give you a ticket. why? ah oh, i can have the ticket! just a minute, i've got to find my purse. purse is in your bag. right, it is. no you don't just oops a daisy! next week, story time's on thursday, not on monday. oh, can't come then next week! thursday morning. what? what? we can't come next week, cos next week it's on thursday morning wait a minute, that one's for you tim that one's for me there we go. i gotta have the book right you can have all those except that one. you're giving me. that's that one and that's that one. right, you can take that out on my ticket and take all those out on his ticket. mine are you walking back or teddy wants some. let's go and get the books then, first. another added problem isn't it, having one ? yeah. so what's that, story time next week thursday, so we've had that though. thursday instead of monday really. right to reject my story time for this one. no. there were loads of people there last week! we haven't had great numbers, for a long no. time, but last week suddenly mm. lots of people. are you going to put your's up the top tim? that's it! we'll start with that obviously don't seem to be very forthcoming here! put those up there. you look shattered! you are shattered. it's only monday morning too ! oops! thank you i'll pop that in my purse. mummy! yeah that can go in my bag. there's there. that's the ticket, that nice folder on. are you not very well chris? are you not very well? no, we're not is that answer to that! pop that in there. no, i want you'll well you need to hold this! you! are you eating this? you don't want to eat this? wonderful! on we go! off we go. my teddy's dogs ! don't forget the dogs! oh tim's remembered the dog! would you like to eat this? no. you eat it! i don't like coconut ! it's a biscuit! i like coconut. do you want it then? no, it's a biscuit! you try it. i i , it's a biscuit! i know. are you with coconut on the top. do you like it? no. right, well let's give it to christopher, see if he likes it. oh goodness me! well now he don't want it. it's not dirty. well perhaps cider will enjoy it. would cider like our biscuit? erm it's been on the floor! my, may i have it? oh you're gonna hold it? are you going to give it to cider? no! no? cider! get this one. poor woman, she's just done a well perhaps it's i'm sure that's really healthy for you cider! can't cope with that! come here! come here! i think she's . yep! people don't . she'll probably be sick on the way back! i can't if she does sick when i . really? mm. i've lost a child! here we are. want to put that in my bag? you're looking very weary now, do you need to go home and lie down for a bit? yeah. well this one's not too well really he's gonna go down and go back and lie down now, he says but erm the rest of us are fine. you? well no, james has you good? gone to the doctors oh no, what's up with him ? he wasn't at all well yesterday! is he not? no his throats and his temperature was right up and oh well, that sounds like everybody else, cos i was just saying to ann that ian and erm martin they've had high temperatures and mm. feverishness and stuff. well i mean they . but he hasn't been right and for a while no. so feeling better by yesterday and then sorting out for the doctor today. and they got out if it gets too big a hole you see, it could be months before it heals up! have we lost them? no erm her cheryl had to have a walk round in her sleep this morning cos oh pa she picked the phone up, it's turned quarter to seven, she wasn't very happy about it! i bet she wasn't ! oh well! can't help it can you? erm no. i think they've gone and disappeared! no, they're , they're just there. are they? oh. you come here! there's quite a nice group of children that are in there, there's story. why? see you mummy! later! bye! right yes, rush ahead, don't wait for us. ! she sorry? you are? pushing this bloody ! plus the dog! yeah. seems to be wandering about all over the place! yes i really like to put it down ! yeah ! please don't! sometimes you long for half an hours run don't you? but i mean, you know, sort of walk walk quickly ! stay! yeah!! have you seen anything of sarah this weekend, is she alright? no,saw her on friday and said force fed her a hot cross bun oh well done!if that was on friday afternoon yes when i s , when i saw you? i thought we'd better get out the way there! yeah, that's the thing i mean just she never oh do get back ! i oh! have you had anything to eat? no! well you're coming in to have something to eat! i want to something she wouldn't have a, i was quite happy to, i'd, i'd have cooked her a choc ice, a choc ice and pear, going down when i had her so that's all she's had to eat! that well dear! except what she had on wednesday night wednesday night. that was the last thing i . and that's all she's had all week! and two drinks! and she's had two cups of coffee and a sherry she told me on thursday? oh dear! i was just ! well it is it's silly isn't it? it's very silly! and she must know that it's silly. yeah! and she's not she's not stupid! so did you tell her? did you lay into her? i did a little bit, but it didn't no! it didn't i said are you going to ha , have some tea with the children? and she said no! then she said yes! i said you're not are you? no. she says, no i'm not. no. but simon doesn't know! well i think we ought to say. and i said i'd tell simon but i wouldn't. what did she say to that? nothing, she boo! didn't care! bang! i think we should of done really ay! because otherwise ay! it's just gonna go from bad to worse isn't yeah. it? she's been better this weekend but well at least he'll have been here this weekend to find yeah. out, won't he? mummy! yeah. look! but the trouble is he's gonna be so bogged down with his job problems i really ca and maybe if she eats one or two meals over the weekend, it'll he might not he'll think her, eats yeah. hey! yeah. so i don't know whether she buys her meals no that's what i gathered. and she'll not eat them! yeah. it's a problem! they that ! the thing with doing this recording i've noticed that the the time we really sit we down and talk is at and the meal times. meal times! daddy keeps giving there! particularly as a family here with the children cat! what we've done and i know. hey yeah! mummy there's we also get together and cats in there. oh! come on, you walk on the seat! i know. she'll sharing with us. yeah. oh you scaredy! on saturday, well i produced this you not ! cottage pie, expecting her to join in, unless yeah, of course! she was going out you know yeah. which is fair enough yeah. and she obviously was, sort of, most surprised that we were all gonna sit round the table and eat it! mum,on there? and eat it! he do things that we that we did. oh! look! look mum! look! oh you get down we're looking! from there ian! i can't manage! get down! mark's playing with . well careful, your biscuit's going to get very dirty and then you won't able to eat it! mark did it! mark can do, mark's bigger. yeah, that's right, okay? older anyway. oh! ooh! ooh ooh! hey! well they're you what? eating it . yeah. james's mum said to me, and she doesn't know her from adam, she said yes. that lady is on, been on the corner, standing there talking for the last twenty minutes which must mean that mark was late to school this morning so then oh! she must be going to high down hill. oh! or is he not going to school this morning? oh i'm afraid he's, no he's had chicken pox! and ah right. when they have chicken pox and stuff, they they said they were setting off at nine o'clock as if to go oh! to school. i mean, you know, it was ten to nine or whatever. now. saw them at ten to nine, and then she passed them again at ten past nine. where's the dog? i wonder why she told me that then? well i dunno big dog! i mean this was just, james's he mum had said. there, that one. but she didn't know her, you know. no. and your and i thought, oh no sarah don't do it! now! because just everything seems to be going to pot! yeah. mummy! go on, let's get home . oh but mum! that sounds like the best idea! i don't know about you but mummy! what's the problem dear? why are we all worrying? doesn't have to go! oh go on with you! nancy's our lucky oh dog! hang on we've got cider with us again. go away! it's going away now. no problem. oh is it today? ! i'm gonna catch your dog! you feel you want to do something, but i just don't what you can do no. really, beyond, like you say, telling simon and seeing what he can do but no. cos we can't just stand by and watch her fade away can we? no. rather it stop now than i know. another two months and then the woman's in hospital and goodness knows what and yeah. no ouch tha ! stu pid! no we didn't the back door. did you ? where's your mud guard? well it's nice ahhh! , but i end up having to! yeah. oh is that our isn't it mummy? went on and me and i go all wobbly and yeah. when i was pregnant i was really yeah ! used to have to eat all sorts of things at different times i used to try and eat apples as opposed to, you know, sort of , something fairly healthy but yeah. i would go qui , quite wobbly and sometimes have to mm. lie down for a bit ! mum ! that sounded like there's a man! in the garden ! that's a good one! yeah. did though ! it would be . well they're alright, there with a man. there's a man with them. there's a man with them, they obviously know what they're doing they're lovely! that man is being ! no, they're going round the corner. i expect they're going home. perhaps they've been for their walk, this one looks as if he's so old he can hardly ! i'm really going one coming straight for us. no, he's going no! home! ! there's a cat! oh dear! the dog's sitting with the cat. the dog's sitting the cats mummy. well perhaps they've had get simon on her. mm. friday night she's coming to stay. i bet andy was slagging him off again. oh did he? no! cos he didn't know her! well i mean, he does know her but i mean he, perhaps yeah. he didn't, doesn't realise the oh he does. state of the girl! mummy ! if you keep him telling every day, he does ! what's the time? let's hide ! ay? oh dear! we will hide. yeah! you'd think they'd notice at work wouldn't you? yeah, perhaps well i don't suppose they would. , he said right yeah. we'll have a chinese take away. she must be eating something, to keep going surely? she'll probably ! no, not quite! hope thi good. we'll do another one, or do you want to do something different? look at that one hey let's read a story. i bring you a look, that's easy it's six. right. because i it's back on the shelf there i think. it's back on the shelf? mm. where? on my bookshelf, just there. where? there? shall i get it for you? while mast where? while mastermind is doing his maths. over here. where? where are we? number one. here. oh. is that that the first book? yes. that i read? yes. that's number one book. that's right. that's number one book. how are we doing? you just dropped a pencil. what? have you just dropped your pencil? mummy. i shouldn't just leave it on the floor look cos we shan't find it again and then when the hoover tries to pick it up it will have a fit. who who's gonna who hoover up a pencil do we? no we don't need to hoover a pencil up. no we don't. don't know where the is yet do we? perhaps it's hiding somewhere so it doesn't get hoovered up. mm. could be. what about behind there? that behind there it wouldn't get hoovered up. true. i bet there's a lot of things behind there. such as anyway there's glue behind there. scissors behind there. no. we had to get most of them out. the glue's out. what? i tried to get most of them out. oh. there's no glue. good. there's not supposed to be. i do try and get most of the things out from behind there it's this this bookcase i have terrible trouble with. come on. let's be getting going. are we having this story? are you ready? timmy the catcher mouse was a little black cat. timmy the catcher mouse was a very long name for a very little cat so everyone called him tim. tim. tim lived in a hole under the steps of a very old house. he lived there with his mother and his sister tessa . tessa. that doesn't say tessa. that one says tim. tim. that's right. his mother's name was peggity but everyone called her pegs . pegs. and what does this bit say? pegs. that's right. one day pegs was going out. you can play in the garden while i'm away she said. but remember this. a magician lives in the house everyone says that he's very grumpy so if you meet the magician you must be very polite. i'll remember said tim . tim er mum, that's tim and pegs. that's right. pegs went out. she ran across the garden to the old iron gate. she crept under the gate and out into the lane . pegs. er pegs said no, it says pegs went out. pegs went out. that's right. again. pegs went out. that's right. there's the word went look, and there's the word out. pegs went out. pegs went out. that's right. went out. where's the pegs went out? well you can see it there. there's pegs. there's went. went this is seven isn't it mum? and that's out. out. mum that's seven. it is, yes. pegs went out. mhm. mum, to do a seven you have to go across and then down. you do, you're right. mummy. and then up. tim looked at his sister. she was fast asleep. i used to do it that way tim jumped on her to wake her up but she only said go away, and went back to sleep again . what does this bit say? do you remember? tim er jumped. tim jumped. that one bit says tim and that bit there says jumped. tim jumped. that's five isn't it? yes. whoops, we've missed, i lost our page there . tim got out of the hole. the sun was shining and the sky was blue. tim went out into the garden . hold on. you've got to say this bit first. tim went out. very good. that was a bit clever. is that all done? are they all done now? tim saw a tree well er they look all done to me. tim saw a tree. that's right. the tree was growing near the house . he's gonna go up there in the the house. do you want to try that one? it's a bit like what we've been doing before where you've got to look at the money. it said how much for both? tick the money you will need . you have to tick off. it's going to be nine p and one p. that makes ten p altogether and you have to tick off the ten pence by doing a five and a five. so you have to add this bit up first. mummy. three p and five p and write down what it comes to. what will that be? so you have to tick that one off? wait a minute. well find that first of all. three p and five p makes? read it. jus can i just show christopher what to do with this page? cos once he's got going he can get on with it himself then. eight. that's right. so put your eight p down there. and then you have to work out the coins that you'll need for eight p mummy. or three p and five p. mummy. mummy. so which ones will you need? just tick them off, the bits that you'll need. tim went ran up the tree. erm nearly. tim ran to the tree. ran to to the tree. will i need two and two and one? will you need what love? two two and one. two two and one. that would make five. and then you need another three. why don't you have the fi look for the three p first and tick that off and then look for the five p next and tick that off. tick five p off? tick five p off. i don't know this bit. mm. cos you know that five p and three p are gonna make eight p don't you? mummy mum. does that say five p just hold on tim while i just sort him out. cos if that's right. that's five p and now you need you can't really see it no you can't really. that's better. you still can't see it. well make a big tick sticking out like there's does. that's it, now that's it there, now what else makes eight p? mummy. tim climbed to the very top of the tree. he looked down and saw the house. the roof of the house was very close to the top of the tree . three. tim you haven't got a three p. looked looked well! we have to do this. tick that one. down . down. that's it. tim looked down. and tick that one. you've got four p there. do you know what you're doing on that that that's for that one. you're up here. mm. mummy tim ran you've ticked the wrong things but it doesn't matter cos we can probably use those anyway. tim climbed tim climbed up there. it's a good try. it actually says tim saw the window. tim jumped on to the roof of the house. there was a window in the roof. tim saw the window. the window was open . tim saw saw three three p. the the window. three p mum. three p. that's it. that's it. well done. now you have to do this one. tricky aren't they, these? tim ran up the roof to the window. he looked down into the room below. he saw an old man sitting in a chair. the old man had long white hair and a white beard. he must be a magician mum nine. tim said to himself . magician. that's it. the magician. well done. nine there. mhm. he's going in. the magician was fast asleep. tim leaned over to have a good look at him, but his foot slipped and he fell in. he landed right on the magician's knee. tim dug in his claws and held on . tim fell in. well done. the magician woke up with a yell of pain. he saw tim standing on his knee. where on earth did you come from? he asked. i fell in said tim. then you'd better fall out again said the magician. take your claws out of my knee and go away . tim the the magician woke up. that's it. five tim pulled out his claws. he looked up at the four. window. i can't get up there by myself he said . tim looked look mummy. looked look. up at up. that's it. it is it. you're right. we'll soon see about that said the magician. one two three and you're back six p in there. in the tree. and he snapped his fingers . isn't it six? this one says one two three. two three. that's it. tick. that's it. very good. tim felt himself flying up in the air. a moment later he found himself back in the top of the tree . nine. and nine is here. yeah. and tim was in the tree. very good. you're good at this book aren't you tim? tim climbed down the tree just as pegs came back into the garden. tim ran to ni to meet her. tim cried pegs. where have you been ? tim ran. ran home. well it should say tim ran home. it doesn't, it just says tim ran. it would make more sense if it said tim ran home. tim been to the magician. he has. i've been to see the magician said tim. it was very exciting. i expect it was said pegs but you better be careful tim. magicians can work magic. i know they can said tim. the magician did work magic. i flew up into the tree. it was very exciting but i shall be very careful next time . tim and pegs. that's it. tim on the pegs. tim and pegs. it's cos they're both on the picture. and that's the end of the book. you were very good at that weren't you? oh. another nine. oh good gracious. two nines. oh that's look. easy then. you'll be able to use the same coins. two five. that's only seven. mum. what? mummy. two and five is only seven. you need another two. that's it. mum. mm. to do lots more. you don't have to. if you want to you can give up now and we'll do some reading next. do you want to have a go at my mum's a window cleaner? and then after that we'll go in the garden. what? i said after that we'll go in the garden before it rains. we'll also have to ring grandma and tell her that we won't be coming to her house today cos we won't be going swimming. cos although you're much better now mum i want to read this. i don't think you should be going to erm i don't think we'll read another one just right this minute lovey. cos i'm going to read with christopher it's a different one. now. it's christopher's turn to read. i feel really better. you feel really better? well that's nice? he going swimming? he's not going swimming, no. would you like to go and get a card out of there look, and do some drawing? mum, will we play school instead? yeah. we're playing schools now. my mum's a window cleaner . and after this will we play schools? after this we're gonna play gardens. play gardens . mum, what do we have to do out in the garden? mum, mum i want you have to dig up all the weeds that are poking through. tidy it up a bit and if we get time we haven't got felt tips love. just use these ones. yeah, they're upstairs. no. the felt tips are too far away. my mum's a window cleaner . some mums are in shops. some mums do drive. drive buses . don't. they don't usually. they're usually men aren't they? they are actually. there are one or two women that drive buses but not that many. but my mum's a i but my mum's a w window cleaner. you have to be careful when you walk under her legs ladder. ladder . why? cos if you walk under her ladder she might drop the water all over your head. some people say it's unlucky to walk under ladders. i think it's a lot of rubbish. unlucky? mm. what does that mean? well there you are. that's why it would be unlucky, cos she'll drop water all over you. do you think it's unlucky? no i don't. i think it's silly to say that. because if it's silly it's just a bit of a joke really. but some people think it's serious. you have to be careful when you walk under a ladder or or you might get a sh shower. that's it. and when she washes now then. do the sounds for that one cos you'll get there in the end. swings. swings the that's it. ladder round your duck you duck. when she swings her ladder round you duck . do you know what it means to duck? mm. you go like this bob your head down quick. otherwise she might clout you round the earhole with her ladder. you duck? yeah. look at all those birds floating about in our erm all these pigeons in our garden. there's four. what do you think they're eating? i think they've got w we've got lots of worms. worms around here. mm. but we don't see them do we? mm that one's just got a bright juicy one. i just watched it go down its mouth. look they must be having their lunch. right where were we? sometimes sometimes cleans. cleans windows very low down. window cleaner? yeah. it's all about my mum being a window cleaner, this book. and sometimes she cleans windows very high up. but my mum's not s scared. scared. one day there was a big fire. my my mum went up her ladder what ? well read it and you'll find out . where with. with a bucket full of water. she rescued a baby with his bottle. that's it. i a. a fat man mhm. had having. having a baby. no. having a? a bath. a bath even. even an old lady with a parrot. they must have all been in the house in the fire. she got them all out. every baby everybody. everybody cheered. cheered and when the firemen arrived. arrived they g gave. gave her a hat helmet. helmet. my mum's got a big bigger. bigger ladder now but she don't doesn't. doesn't clean windows any more. she's a firelady instead of. how did she that was a good story wasn't it? i enjoyed that one. we picked a good one from the library there. i want to read this one now. did you enjoy that one tim? did you think that was good? it wasn't really a washing one. no we thought it was a window cleaning book. it's really a fire engine book. a fire engine what? that was more of a fire engine book than it is a window cleaning book isn't it? i want to read this one now. that's a very nice picture now. to read. oh we could read it or we could go in the garden. what do you think? we've had a story each now. no. oh! we've got to ring grandma. would you like to help talk to grandma on the phone? yeah. i i gonna do it. go on then. right but can i one of you hold the receiver and the other one do the numbers. i do numbers. do you know what to do for the numbers? yeah. well hold on cos it's no good until you pardon? yes she should be back at her house. just wait tim cos you've got to wait till you've got the receiver picked up before you start dialling anything. and then you've got to dial the right numbers or else you won't get grandma, you'll get somebody else. are you gonna talk christopher? right there you go. you pick the receiver up. right tim tim okay tim, number six. what do i have to say? you say hello for starters. go on, right round tim. hello and what do you say after? that's it. i'll tell you in a minute. that one there we can't come today. nine. say we're not going to come swimming today. seven whoops two two. and this one. right round. whoops. that should be it. is it ringing? yeah. tell her it's christopher to start with. she might not know who you are. hello. how are we? oh we're all well. still all in the land of the living. yes they're definitely erm alright now. sunshine over there 'll be going to school tomorrow, no problem. have you had a quiet day today? he looks very quiet at the moment . mummy well it does at the moment but oh mummy he's not been quiet all day. daddy hello hello hello. mummy. tim. hello. hello hello hello. it's not are we here? are we living? he's probably tired by now i should think. window cleaner is it? he read that to me daddy. he was very good. did you? he'll have to read it to you next. thought we'd have a reading session so we had a reading book and we had some maths. but it's not really one because it's a fire engine one cos mum is is the tea ready? there's a fire engine yes the tea is ready. next are we? you need to wee so perhaps when daddy goes up to right. get changed. i need a wee. yeah. you need to wee? right, do you want to come with me? you go with daddy cos he's going up there anyway. yeah, i'm going upstairs. whoops. oh! i've fallen on the stairs. i know. who's gonna get upstairs first? shall i start dishing it out? i mean it's that that erm two minutes near to being ready. two minutes. mummy. hello. me. no. yes. i'm just giving dishing out the, the dinner love. what is it for it's the beef left over from yesterday and broccoli and carrots and sprouts. oh oh. i've only given you one sprout so you're alright. and only got one sprout? yeah. tim, you've got one sprout. mummy and daddy like sprouts so we've got lots. one sprout some trees. have i got two? no, one. have i got one you've just got one sprout christopher. i'm not giving you much at all. just a little bit of everything. to see how you go. what's ? can i please? no, it's not er filled up yet. i've not put any what's . gravy? mm. i'm going to make some gravy for you. cos mummy and daddy have got mushrooms and tomatoes cos we like those. frowning at me for? are you not feeling too hungry now? well it's alright. don't worry, i'm not expecting you to eat much, just a little bit. cos if you eat biscuits and stuff all day long, i don't expect you to eat meals as well. is that ? yeah that's you. i don't think it'll kill you do you, to eat that? what's ? okay? is that alright for you? watch out if it drops. watch out if it drops. ooh ooh. don't do it again. it keeps falling over. here love, that's yours. it nearly fell over. okay chatterboxes, let's have it. how was your day then love? okay oh. yes. impressive. that's you tim. and we'll chop your meat up before we go much further. there's you. yum yum yum. nice sprouts. daffodils out since this morning. and what else have do you notice dear? oh, a clean tidy garden. well half a clean tidy garden . can you see the grass is cut? you've been cutting the bottom part of the grass? we have. and we've put a bit of seed on that bit so it's . and we had the lawnmower. you had the lawnmower out did you? can you put your bib on? can you see some seed where there's no grass? seems like an appropriate thing to do when one's stuck at home. tim sit. we get lots of birds in our garden don't we? properly please. can see lots of birds. four huge pigeons sitting in the on the grass earlier on. see pigeons and the cats. there used to be two but there's four now. do you think they've and the cats. and you saw a cat as well did you? and he run away. did it? because he doesn't like me. oh. right, who's going to say thank you? amen i bang the drum. you did bang the drum. anybody want any of this? no thank you. i want some i just no i i'll do it. i wanted to get it out. no tim. tim. i wanted to get it out. tim otherwise it'll go everywhere you see. you can shake it with me. i wanted to get it out. alright you don't have any then in that case. i want it. i want well if you stop crying and ask for it properly and you don't mind if mummy or daddy do it for you that's fine. i want it do it myself. no. yeah. i want to do it myself do you want me to do it or not? no. right. i want to get it out you just want to pick it out? yeah . you're not going to shake it over your dinner? thank you. that bit. no i want that too. right, here you are. mum that's that one done. out. thank you. right. the lid. good gracious me. what a carry on. welcome home dear. has it been alright today? it's been comparatively peaceful today. good. when did everybody get up? mum could you cut my meat? they all sort of surfaced you were all asleep when i er i think i'd had i finished my breakfast when, no i think you just came just as i was about to take my first mouthful of cereal. it was about quarter to eight before everybody, well after that no but it wasn't. what time did you get up? what time did you go? i left at twenty to eight. mm. it was about ten to eight when christopher got up. but tim was still asleep till about quarter past eight . oh. and i shouted for daddy. did you? which is unheard of. yes you did shout for daddy. you shouted for daddy? i was already at work. there was no daddy. he'd gone to work already. so then we had a bit of a wonder whether or not christopher should go to school. and i decided he was, should stay at home. it's probably just as well cos mm. pool his strength for tomorrow. he was a bit sort of wobbly on his legs at the beginning of the day but he's been yeah. fine since. and tim's going to nursery. holly cottage tomorrow. aren't you? ow. where look i found a yellow . we did go down to the library. cos i thought it would, it was such a warm day i thought it would be quite nice for him to have a walk see if he was alright. anyway managed to walk to the library and walk down the shops . but when we got back we had to lie down in front of the video for a bit. mum mum, can i for a minute please. mhm. so you just did your own private trip to the library ? yeah i rang up and said i wasn't gonna go the children. anyway it turned out we met ann and erm both martin and ian are been having a similar trauma. have they? mm. oh. ian's been sort of talking about all sorts of strange things in his sleep and really? delirious and hot hot yes. fever. so it's odd. a bug they're passing around. mm. must be. child to child. and she said martin was hot but nothing too traumatic. a bit like these two really. mm. but ian had been sick as well. so it's likely they picked it up from them. i should think so. although christopher didn't really see much of them did he? oh he did on thursday didn't he? mm. i would have thought tim would have had it worse from contact erm wise. these things don't work like that do they? no. and is the parentage alright? mm. only strikes children. yeah. well it certainly did in both these cases. although i met theresa on the way back from erm school and she said alec was at the doctors cos not the way back from school, way back from the library. and she said alec was at the doctors cos he was feeling under the weather. yeah. so i don't know what that's in aid of. julia ill so she was she? won't be at work tomorrow. oh dear. what's the matter with her? i don't want the meat. what's the matter with her? sore throat. i don't want the meat. you don't want the meat? no. you usually like meat. it probably needs chopping up. mm. let's chop it for you. no i don't want it chopped. tim listen. i'm going to chop you i don't want i'm going to chop you one piece of meat okay? we'll take away the other piece. a big pieces. yeah. there you go. it'll be nice now. nice and tasty. well done christopher. mm. you alright? must be getting better. so, it's been a nice warm day has it? well it has really. it's been a bit sort of muggy this afternoon but we went out in the garden and we sort of just pottled around you know? better than the weekend weather that i saw? yeah. it's amazing how the worst weather we've had recently has been on saturdays and sundays isn't it? mm. it's certainly very wet out there. we had a go on the swing. did you? you've been on the swing? apart from her sore throat was julie okay? seemed alright. i wobbly. mm? yeah. no it was a fairly quiet day really. not many people seemed to be at work. oh. where are they all? some at meetings . like you know all yeah the people who went to pontepool last week? well they're all off in bromsgrove this week . potato. mm. and big patrick and sue oh yeah, in bromsgrove yeah. mm. what do they do? mm. you gave me lots. i did not. you did. i certainly didn't give you lots of meat. i'm full. oh that's alright. you don't need to have anything else. i want my pudding. oh no. if you're full you won't need pudding. no it'll be a tiny pudding if you're not gonna eat er finish all that. it's too much. well that's okay. you can leave it but you just don't get pudding as well. you eat just a little bit more. cos then you can have a little pudding. that's it, you eat just a little bit more. that's very tasty mummy. certainly looks as though it's a rosemary conley type thing. eat it. you help me meat. whoops, it's in your eye. oh. oh. potato. potato in your eye. getting potatoes in your eyes. that's a funny place to put potato. mm broccoli doesn't want to come on the fork. come here broccoli. broccoli can't get on fork very well can it? we rang grandma of course to say we wouldn't be swimming. so she's at home alright is she? there's a lot of things we're not doing isn't there at the moment? mm. yes. she's fine. and there are a lot of things we are doing. what else have ? oh that's it really. library this morning and garden this afternoon . and zom zombieness in between. i can imagine actually. no it must have been nice. the is more and mummy was there it didn't feel like a long day did it ? no. feeled like just this morning didn't it? it all passed along didn't it? it feeled like just this morning. mm. didn't it? mm. because usually this morning we usually have video and it feeled like this morning all the time. doesn't it mum? we didn't watch much video this morning at all really dad. until lunchtime. mm? when we watched telly yes. we saw a boat, the big boat. about a big boat. what's the big boat? he tells me you know you you told me about the big boat didn't you? oh about the queen mary? oh, right. i think that was a different boat to the one that they showed you on the telly. i was telling you about the queen mary. because it was on the back of something which he was making recently. you know he was cutting out some card mm. he showed me what it was. but i couldn't tell that it was the queen mary at the time because he'd already cut it out. and i was saying that it's a big boat that used to go across the world. and when i was a little boy just a little bit bigger than christopher i was shown round it with granny and grandpa and uncle michael and uncle david. mm. that's the same isn't it? we went to southampton to the docks. i want some pudding now. i read about it in the paper today well done tim. and it's owned by walt disney . i want some pudding. and they're losing so much money they're selling it. the thing is nobody wants to buy it some pudding now. so they're scrap . what was walt disney doing with it may we ask? well was it a restaurant or something? it was a floating restaurant loses money on it. i want pudding why? it was just too expensive to maintain. oh. i want some pudding now. i want some pudding. somewhere in the yes we know that tim but you're just going to have to wait until we've all finished. daddy left sprouts. i can't manage any more i'm afraid mummy. daddy left sprouts. ooh daddy! i might have right. i'm afraid i've had no exercise cos i haven't walked to the shops. well i suppose . you'll have to put the exercise video on dear and are you gonna have some pudding? but we've got the rosie and jim. mm. oh we've got rosie and jim have we? a new rosie and jim. it's about a horse and john gets a new one. because a pony goes faster than a big horse. does it? mm. and they're in and you have to watch it. they go to a shire horse centre near stratford on avon. do you know where that is? yeah and a shire horse doesn't go very fast. i didn't know there was one . the shire horse goes slowly. may i have my pudding please? yes. let's just cut the pa and the pony went really fast i and guess who was in the pony rosie and jim. yes. and guess who was in the on the big horse and just went slow? the big one thank you. the big one went so slow. they were in the front mm. but rosie said come on fast. and the pony went fast and it overtakes does it? it on the way home. okay. i'll just go round the other side and get the ice-cream. we keep doing this. i'm having a lot. are you? cos i finished all my dinner you did finish all your dinner in the end didn't you after moaning on. did he? yes, didn't you notice? he finished the lot. typical. mum. i'm gonna serve it out. all of it. that's mine. right. that's that's daddy's. who's is daddy's. i'll just get do you want to take that to daddy? daddy yours. ice-cream thank you. it is. it's a chocolate that's christopher's. yours christopher. and that's that's you. and mummy. a pear and a mummy mummy all that. why do you always have pears mummy? cos i just fancy them at the moment. i sort of i love pears. do you? and me. oh have some too if you want. it's nice to see a happy family. it's certainly much improved on yesterday i tell you. a very jolly day really. a trial weekend wasn't it? it was a bit of a trial weekend . in many respects. mum, when are you going to have actually porridge again? i had actually porridge on saturday. and would you like to have it again? mm. not next saturday. why can't i have it on saturday? but last saturday you didn't. no the i did. saturday before that you didn't did you? neither did you. yes the previous saturday you didn't want it. oh didn't i? the rest of us had it. beg pardon. i'd forgotten that one. the saturday before that none of us had it cos we were at granny and grandpa's. oh that was what i was remembering. and the saturday before that none of us had it cos you were gallivanting up and down the country with the correct. the railways. so you haven't seen grandma presumably just sort of spoke to her? no we just rang her up. very briefly. have you been out anywhere car. we've never had the car out all day. what? i thought it was more sensible to walk to the library rather than go in the car cos yeah. i thought it was good for us. i'm sure it was. mm. all go in the car. i like it better walking. mm. so do i. it's nice to walk. mummy. so you don't i think it says somewhere in the in the writing you've got to have done at least two days. who gave you that? who gave me what? that? what? that? the cassette. a man. mum's got to give it back to the man. when? it's only it's only on loan. why? because it belongs to the man. why will you give it oh that will make a nice birthday present. a little walkman. very anti-social. i'm against anti-social things i'm afraid. mum when you have to give it back to the man? mum you should have had it after your birthday. i'll only suggest walkmans mum when you have to when the music gets so loud here that you can't stand back to the man? friday. why? why? because it's his anyway. he's only just lent it to me to to use during this week. oh i don't suppose it's his but well so in last week and this week? just this week. well friday to friday. one week. so they'll be able to record the excitement that might happen tomorrow. i wonder what's gonna happen tomorrow. mm it's been very thrilling so far hasn't it? everybody being sick . a week in the life of. in the . a jolly little incident in kwiksave that you would have been amused at dear. mhm. we wanted to get some rice crispies okay? and we thought a good place to get rice crispies at kwiksave cos they're cheaper than tesco's. they were we found the rice crispies place didn't we? and there was just one sort of half opened, half scattered packet sitting there. so we looked around and there was erm a box full of them right up high, yeah? so we thought oh well, go and get an assistant. yeah. so it caused chaos did it? you know trying to find an assistant cos there wasn't one walking about cos there was some at the tills but there weren't any walking around and it was very busy, there were lots of people going through the tills. so anyway this girl eventually she said she was, it was her coffee break but she would come er in passing and sort us out. but mummy mummy. so she came down, it was so embarrassing . mummy. i explained about the rice crispies she said ah mummy. i think there must be some in here. there was another great big box but instead of being up high it was down below and i could easily mummy. have helped myself to it . mummy yeah seen it? mummy. well they must have been just well they must have i didn't see them mummy. they must have been unpacking rice crispies. mummy they were a bit away from the rice crispie hole type of thing but if i'd have used my eyes i would have noticed where they were. mummy mummy. yes timothy. you don't know what to say now you've you've shouted at me. yes tim, what were you gonna say. that's what i'm thinking. come on. let's hear it. something about rice crispies? something about going to the shops? or something about going to the library? who do you take to the library with you? no. oh, didn't christopher go to the library? well he did but we didn't sort of take christopher. he just came. oh. somebody else came did they? did you? who did you take to the library with you? in your hand, who did you have? we took you took teddy didn't you? did you take a teddy? did you? he chose we hadn't actually heard anything about this library experience but when i asked him he wouldn't say anything. don't know what we don't quite know what happened. to teddies. what did you do with them when you got in there? what was it called? you had a biscuit? mm. we saw the biscuit a picnic. a picnic! you had a picnic? a picnic for teddies? well well. a pretend picnic? mm. he came out with a a a biscuit covered in desiccated coconut. which he didn't like to eat so cider ate it in the end. cider the dog . you can guess what happened he gave it to me. yes. mummy dropped it when she was giving it to me. and then we had to pick it up and put it near cider and cider ate it. cider likes coconut. however we still don't know what happened. did you have some stories with this teddy? yeah. mm. mum stories about teddies? i don't like feeling hot. a teddy went in the dump. a teddy went in the dump? oh dear. did they get him out again? mm. because a oh. he kick them home. kick them home. no he went in a van? mum what about story was a bit like that. mm. yeah because they lost a teddy in the dump. and they went home in the lorry. mm. didn't they? mm could have been that one. did you have any more stories about teddies? mm. what else did you have? teddy what about what about owl. teddy what? with a owl. a teddy with an owl? and what happened with a teddy and an owl? he falled. he fell? falled? the teddy. the teddy fell down? did the owl catch him? and you don't usually no. oh. you don't usually say falled do you? and boy kept back. and the boy came back. what was the boy called? i don't know. it wasn't christopher robin was it? no. it might have been. trying my best . next time it won't be monday when we go. won't it? no, it will be friday. wrong again. thursday. only we can't take him on thursday cos we're busy on thursday. yeah. so we shall have to miss a week, and go the week after. is the week after a monday? mm. i presume so. why is not on a ? well they didn't tell us why. just said it wasn't. i think they're just a bit shortstaffed because the girl that's usually in there hasn't been in there for weeks, josie. they've had the girl that's normally in there on a saturday during the week. perhaps she's ill. what did you say? what did you say mother? i said there's normally a different lady in the in the library. for what? on a monday. the lady that was in there today not rosie the one that does the stories, she's always there well, when she's there. the other lady, josie, she's normally in there. but she hasn't been there for a few weeks now so i think she might be ill. or on holiday or something. no she can't be on holiday all that length of time. she's back now. no she wasn't today. there was a lady there but that's the lady that normally goes on a saturday. but why didn't she go on a saturday then? well i suppose she does go on a saturday as well. they probably had to rake her in to hold the fort. i expect she didn't go . i don't know. why? i don't know whether she did or not. i've got a we've got a train. actually mummy mm. we've got a train. playbus said about a horse which goes slowly. oh. they're all about animals really that do things. think about. you'll enjoy that, it's all about eggs. is it? animals. yes but you can't see that till after rosie and jim now. should you ever want to watch it all. i don't think i've got time to watch all these things. it's too exciting isn't it? it's all very gripping. well there won't be any time tomorrow to watch anything. there's three things. well there's four things. i've arranged with my oh definitely tonight. i've arranged with my mother to er take her home after tea. there's a new there's a new thing on so all is well for inspector morse. instead of bump. she was quite happy to. she said she wanted to really. and she said mum, there's something she'd got to do wednesday night. and i've just realized i'm supposed to do wednesday night as well. i'd forgotten. mum. so i'll have to prepare it tomorrow morning. mummy. or tonight, i could do. there's something new er instead of that bump. it's it's called it wasn't bump today you mean? no it's a new one. it's not been bump for a week or two. oh so it's something new now? yeah. not bump. was it poddington peas? oh it was something about peas. i don't know what it was. yeah. poddington peas. it had things like happy and dopey and grumpy. yes. and there was one place which was called creepy. oh right. creepea there was a . oh. and a man looked for the . yeah and the it sounds very gripping. well that well the person i don't know and the drum went on the floor. oh dear. why don't we start right at the beginning of the tape? because we're not bothering watching any more now. that's it i'm gonna wash up now. and then oh it will be reading stories won't it? i think so. it'll be bed time. right. okay. it's quarter past six already. but you were going to play tummyache. i expect you can play tummyache while i do true. the washing up. yeah. unless you want to play tummyache? and you wash the i'm prepared to wash up. and you wash the i, it it's my turn to wash up isn't it? cos mummy made the tea yeah. so daddy does the washing up. except it looks as though i won't be washing up something here. sometimes we have do the washing up. why why is he not eating it up? it's pie. he doesn't like pie does he? he's always eaten it before. has he? are you gonna finish it? so is it okay if i eat it all? mum, we were going to watch rosie and jim oh tim, no. weren't we? well we were, but only with daddy. we can always do it another day. cos you know, as long as it's on there. yeah. cos last week i didn't see rosie and jim until nearly the end of the week. he doesn't mind do you daddy? no i don't mind as long as it's not wiped off. not seeing it right at the minute. well it won't be wiped off dear. never wipe rosie and jim off for a long time. tim! yes you have, you wiped the jelly one off when it was very new. true. sorry about that. a slip of the finger. naughty mummy. sorry. cos daddy hasn't watched that. i did watch the jelly one. yes he did yes. watch the jelly one. wibbly wobbly. before you you haven't. i have. it was all about moulds. yes. and the mould for the windlass. oh. think all of us and watched it and you and mum and me. well there you are then. we haven't missed anything. yes. that's right. there are a few that i haven't seen on isn't there? because one week we had one from a long bit ago but i didn't see the rest through the week. oh. did i once? so i missed a few playbuses. mm. i don't think you do re miss it really. you see them in the end. i see them one day. you haven't seen one cos you haven't seen the racing. do other people have so much trouble with their videos ? i wonder if other people have so much trouble videoing videos as we do? the racing cars. yeah racing cars is today. why yeah. trouble videoing. well it's not so much trouble but kind of you know mummy. excitement about it all. it is a racing car on playbus. mm. they were racing along and then do you think it'll wear off? you know as the newness of the video wears off. the racing lorry mummy mummy the racing lorry on playbus. racing lorries. mm i watched that, remember? i sat down with my coffee. did you? as i, well i got given orders. come and watch this mummy. so i thought i would. you haven't watched the racing cars. i haven't watched it. no i haven't seen it. you watched none of them. i've not watched any videos or television all day because i've been hard at work. what might be more interesting is if re christopher reads you his reading book from the library cos it's really good fun. you'll enjoy the story. cos it was a surprise to us wasn't it? yeah, it's not really about my mum. it's not about your mum the the window cleaner? no, it's about don't tell him don't tell him don't tell him cos it's more exciting yes. if he doesn't know. go and get it now cos he'll enjoy it. i'll do the washing up. cos it's, oh you can listen to this now, it's only about oh. ten seconds. is it? right. it's not long, that story. isn't it? and then we can play tummyache without any interruption. you haven't watched all of the no. you watched the puppet show one. i've seen the puppet show one, yes. well, did you and i saw the science club one about the bones. i watched that one as well. i think that might have gone actually this morning. right. mind what's it called? yes it has mummy now. cos you mm we've got eggs, eggs in yeah, eggs instead. right. yes it's egg instead now. my mum's what's it called? a window cleaner. that's right. some mums walk in shops. not walk. some mums work in shops that's right. some mums drive buses that's it. but my mum my but my mum's a window cleaner. you have to be i don't like this pie. mum i don't like this pie. walk. i don't like this pie. ladder. i don't like this pie. well let's chop it up. then you'll feel it's better. it the wrong way. it the wrong way. or you'll make i don't like it cos it's got black on. what does that say? it's chocolate. or you might i don't want chocolate. you might get a i don't want chocolate. shh. shh. tim. if you don't want to finish it just put it down there and keep quiet. what are you laughing at? the way you said it . play tummyache. right. ask mummy for a glass. you are a tummyache. you've always eaten that pie before tim, what's the matter with it today? mm. are you becoming a fusspot? yeah. yeah. well you can stop being a fusspot if you don't mind. we don't like fusspots in this family. i haven't there. now let's play now listen. listen listen listen. you'll probably need to go to the toilet soon. see if you can be as clever as you were yesterday. oh. the lights aren't on. where's tummyache? tummyache. where's tummyache? where's the tummyache? where's the tummyache? ah, i found it over there. silly me. we need some space over here some space. mm. want some space over here. why are there cars in the wash basket? have to move these over here. mhm. there's only the lorry . horrible. it's horrible that. it is horrible that. oh where's the horrible boots? i expect it's in this pile somewhere. there it is. where? there there it is. these are all nice. that's nice that's nice, that's nice. right. shuffle them up. what? i'm gonna shuffle the cards. shh . sorry . aah, that's why she's not a window cleaner. that's very good. that one and that one. it's a n nice story isn't it daddy? and that one. i think we'll only need three of them because daddy's yeah. daddy says he's doing the washing up. only three. want to play. mhm. that's yours. that's mine and that's yours. thankyou. so we don't need that plate then? no. i'm gonna start. in the middle. what have you got, something horrible? these are horrible boots. oh dear. that's not a horrible boot it's a horrible drink. go on then christopher. now? it's meant to be you really. why? oh no it isn't. it's meant to be me. clockwise. beg pardon. cos i was going that way round. a carrot mm. mm. we've just had carrots today, haven't we? ugh ugh your turn tim. what is it mummy? ooh it looks like flowers. a horrible fish. ooh horrible things. oh! i've got some nice peas. what shall i have, peas or carrots? i'll have peas. there you go christopher if you'd like some carrots, some nice carrots you may. instead of that horrible stuff and no-one will pick that will they. that's a nice thing. mm. oh jacket potato there tim. mum, you're gonna win in the end. i hope so. i hope i'm gonna win. but i don't think tim's going to win. you've got that upside down tim. i don't think tim's gonna win. do you? no. i'm going mm. oop here's a pie. that's just what i fancy. your turn. well i would if i wasn't full. mm a nice drink. we like this, we get everything nice and he gets everything horrible. well there he has got some nice tomatoes. yes. what you doing? no, will i have to keep that? and then i could do with a nice pudding. oh. oh that'll do. mashed potatoes. look at that, mashed potatoes pie and peas. what have you got? oh fish fingers. mm . do you have fish fingers with carrots? well you can do. have to shuffle these. why? cos look i've made a mess. oh i see. but if he does we might get the bad things. doesn't matter. come on. if i have a horrible thing aah what? ooh a nice pudding. then how do you not sure it is cos it's baking. oh chips! what shall i have, shall i have mashed potatoes or chips? i think i'll stick with the mashed potatoes really . do you want some chips? i think i'm and fish fingers and chips. ooh. you only need a nice pudding and you've won yes. you're doing well. you're a bit of a mess here aren't you? oh that's better, oh no you've already got a nice one of those. think i'll be you want beans. you love beans. you're gonna have beans instead of tomatoes, yeah? cos i like these. you like tomatoes too don't you? i need a nothing. oh what a nice drink. well you could do with a nice middle there couldn't you? and a nice a nice main course and a nice drink. cos i couldn't have had those. mm. now what have you got there? a nice pudding? i don't know what i'm going to have instead of that. oh, you've got a choice. oh orange or i think i love better than that blackcurrant mm. i'm going to keep that one. are you gonna tender on that orange? nice orange drink instead of that horrible one. mum are you gonna have the ? i think i i don't want these ones. no. why? right. let's throw out the horrible one and put the nice one on. so you only need a and i want nice bit of fish in the middle there i think. then i'm going to oh look at that. horrid. i don't want that. no i don't want have you won? yes. oh look at that. he's got a jelly. well done. right it's just me and you now tim. oh that's a nice pudding. i really wanted something better than carrots really. did you? yeah. are you going to put the pudding down on there cos then i can pick it up. there we are. i've won too. so it's it's just you now tim. how far you have to go before you get a main course? oh an old boot. you don't want an old boot. ugh ugh no. put it there then. are you swapping the boot for the fish? no i want the boot. he wants his boot. boots and beans and r erm jacket potato. delicious. right. you don't like boots. no? chops. chops. that'll be just right. oh. no. it's not really chops. no it's ah! oh it's really a nasty not! it's a nasty pudding. that's okay he's got a nice pudding. that was a nasty pudding. you've got a nice pudding so you don't need a nasty pudding. i need a nasty pudding. no, you're just being silly. oh look at this. what a mess. is it my turn? can we play again? i think so. shall we have another game? yeah. right. let's see if we can all do better. we'll have to wrap th erm shuffle them up well cos otherwise all the nice things will be together and all wait wait wait wait wait. we really want all the nasty no you're not to throw them in the air. that's a silly way of doing it. doch doch we don't want them all we really want all the bad things at the bottom don't we? cos it's let's start. right, what time is it? oh twenty five to seven. jolly good. we'll have one more game of this and then you'll have to choose your stories, okay? mm. your turn. oh lucky you chops. your turn. no your turn cos no it's you cos go this way. well you're meant to go the same way as the clock goes and that means it's you next. yeah. ooh! pie. nice pie . that's nice. i bet i get something horrid if you've all had nice things. oh no nice . now it's my go. oh more nice things. nice pudding. nice fish fingers. oh. you're choosing fish fingers not pie. oh good, i'll have the pie then. oh. oh you've got two. i'll come back for you vicki cos er . ooh! beep beep a minute! is that all the way round? to er gary turn the tape over in a minute, alright? daddy! daddy! daddy! i'll chuck this food in the bin gary okay. mummy! ah! cos it's not worth, he can't eat that again. shouldn't have really warmed it up the first time. ee! ooh dear! i here. where's your dummy? it's there somewhere isn't it? it should be there. is he sat on it? have you sat on your dummy? oh, i'll go and get it, it might still be in in the in the car. yeah. i put it in! no, i haven't seen you, i ain't seen him with it! not while, not since you brought him in. . i'm just gonna go to the no not with mummy darling. are you ready? where's mummy going? pee! where? pee. pee. going to the toilet. ah, vicki. no, you stay here with daddy. no vicki! boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing! ah! oh! bang! bang! bang! bang! bang! bang! you alright? i'm going pee, pee! a pee! eh? a pee. mummy. erm put it together then. ! put him together. put together. watch you don't fall! bye! bye! oops! ! sorry? pee. no it's not a potty. there's your potty under there. but mummy's gonna change you in a minute. yeah. that's it! gently! just do it gently like that. that's it, press, that's it! that'll do nicely won't it? that's nice innit? yeah! that's it now, no, no harder. gentle my love. ooh! ooh ooh ooh! baby! baby! gently vicki! what's on tonight? what do we dance to? top of the pops! you and daddy dance? yeah? tonight, bop? you bopping? are we gonna bop ? yeah. yeah! yeah! we do don't we? and who was on last night? boxing. can you box? yeah! yeah. no, not on your brother! not on your brother i said! no! poo! not on your brother! leave him alone! box with daddy don't you? on lee? yeah! are you alright jean ? who's this coming? mummy. mummy. mummy. mummy. do do do do dee do! the lady. ah, ah ah! oh! oh! yeah okay. ah! is it still going gary? looks like it. yeah, it's nearly finished. mm. i se see helen, mum might be going tonight with my er prezzie. they might come and pick up the . yeah. well they might do mightn't they? cos i didn't see her yesterday. look at those the marks all over the the window! after that man cleaned them didn't he vicki? oh! pity they can't do inside as well! what's she sat on? oh! put on with it. oh well she must be sat on her potty! oh just she wants changing first. oh oh oh oh! yeah i know. i'll do her in a minute. put the fire back on eh? mm. i've gone cold! mm. it in't very warm in the bedroom i'll have to go and put the heater on in mm. there after tea cos yeah. of lee going to bed. i'll do it now. alright then. those jeans are on there but they won't hurt. no! oh! and er ah ba ! ah ba ! oi no! if you do vicki and lee if we do vicki and lee then we can put the water on when they a when they're having theirs. can't we? it's a bit early yet ga yeah. that's that erm dartmoor wildlife park, that's dartmoor or wherever it is! when he was little he was sat in his buggy yeah. his lunch. and she gotta showed down fifteen bits and then from on top of a now that's right! building. yeah. right on top of him and it turned round and smacked oh! him in the face and he's never liked them since. no, leave the sound! you can listen to it without the sound. why, what you got on? ha! this ! there's ashtray there. oh well aunty julie's had a little boy then sam? yeah i know. could . no, you're not allowed to have it. yeah exactly eight pound. eight pound? that's quite big innit? not really. not seeing the size she was. no! and they said it was gonna be a difficult birth and that cos can you see the spikes? baby isn't she? yeah. just see them can't you? didn't she? i thought she was really lucky though! mind you don't bang your head. alright? yeah not bad for trainers as well in't they? yeah. normal lee! normal trainers but they just got spikes in them. seventy, about seventy five pound a pair! so he's gonna do it cash? well the chap came yesterday watch! when ouch! exactly! she was on her way into town see ahhh ! well i don't know which turns out best and she came out a you know seeing who was going in ah ah ah ah ah ! they know when. and phil went round there yesterday afternoon. fifteen quid for this. and she said that she'd had the baby she was great. how many am i losing? yeah but, and she should of phoned, did she? she did! well yeah, we had a and if you wrap them round the supposed to be going down there this afternoon but well should have won oi! the shoe . yeah. they had a bit of bad luck they reckon it was oh, yes i know. he sat in seven minutes didn't he? we'll just drop the kids over beryl's and er and leave them, leave with them don't they? got to just pop into town. okay. what's that? oh malcolm does like turkey so we'll have turkey tomorrow. yeah, i couldn't get one down co-op yesterday, they didn't have any. well they did well chicken. you could either have a ten or a twelve pound no, not that. one you not getting them and all? or you could have a what about you? i gotta cook chicken for them. or you could have a no! piddling little chicken no! for about four pound you don't get nothing on them chickens? cos only had not ha , i thought no way! at least i'll give you, who's gonna bet right, who is at first place tomorrow, they're bound to be two, first of the day, so i thought well in town you can get about they have er a big turkey. i'll go and get one this afternoon. and i've gotta get erm no! it's your granddad's birthday innit, on tuesday? urgh! sit down! yeah. i'll get him a card. vicki! well i'm only stop pulling her hair! i'm only giving cards out because as you know nan doesn't bother with birthdays yeah sit er ! terrible! them two! pulling hair! well you're pulling , you little bugger! and i suppose i better get er carl's birthday card while i'm at it. oi! you saw that card i brought for andy didn't you? oh i didn't show you it. just come this way. have a swinging birthday take this take this no, it's your birthday have a swinging time on come here! and then inside it said gotta make sure you give in any no, let's hope you you get up you get! what you've got! yo you've got a . get julie a card as well. i should thrash her! i ought to go to the party. oh i think i've got one. oh yes. yeah, it's a lovely from erm avon for anne. but er be fine for the baby and everything. and where else? but er that's right, yeah. where do you put your so i ordered a so many mum mum! that's right. hotel. not quite there. get that hat. cos i said . yeah she used to nice. ah no! no! nought point ten and going up point two of a second, that is fast! yeah. have you gotta get a card for julie as well? first leg look. that's what's yeah, vicki bought a birthday card for nanny when it comes round. what i reckon, easy that, that easy to get that far outright. uncle. there are! new baby. oh and it's blue as well! yeah. i knew i'd got one somewhere. that's from that's the i got a wedding wedding day card there that's the one . you don't know anybody that's getting married do you? i think that's . and our boys been there haven't they ? canada. oh right! this is fixing it innit? there was a aha. charity match. got one haven't i? come on! no. no we , well you know i bought you you get the handle who's some of that for? you get, hold onto the handle no not there! erm i'd like to see whoever wins this. erm making a car! can't wait to see their face! well my mum got it for what, whichever gonna get mi , if somebody, they get a medal don't they? well mum , mum got me this when it is cos a friend of mine had a baby and we thought it was gonna be a boy and she had another bloody girl! first! she'd already bought the bloody card! cos there's only three lots been down in't there? four. oh well the french. then aren't they? can't go any higher. stu , they'll go down now look, you watch! oh, they're second! a ca car go down. a car! no it isn't granddad. they're in the house now. a car! what? shut up! mummy! that's . yes. that was vicki's eight point one of a second! car! mm. yes. it's my granddad's innit? yeah! and vicki's seventy six. ! wait! they're getting slower! a a key a ah. ah key ah key! how can you ? he ah! which one's that of ours? the second england soon innit? yeah. the first. daddy! they were ninth weren't they? well they ain't gonna stay there long! we got all the big blokes to come yet! they got vanden yeah. what's his name? hang on a minute! out the way a minute! oh oh! the german? popoloff, no what's his name? er popoloff ! hopa. hopa. i wonder if hopa will get out of that? they got bars up their sleeves in't they? the hopa's of germany. andy pandy for what was that? that's a new one. a slip. well it's a i see! mummy! mum! oh full points! mum! mum ! cor! not good! or watch kirsty. oh well it should be fun now, kirsty! oh well tell . kirsty and sam the other night, they were punching shit out of each other weren't they! they plenty of ti , they got plenty where are they now? it won't be all kirsty now, they're in one already! germany. carl will speak to michael now. well di , did andy want a boy? no! he wanted another girl didn't he? no, he wanted a boy. no, cos julie wanted a boy and andy wanted another girl! he wanted a boy! well why did he say to me he wanted a girl? i done, was having. cos she was something one night, well said yeah that she wants more than, he wants more than two. if it was a girl ! he'd have a if it was another girl he would have another one. vicki! yep! gently! i know you! be nice! ooh ooh ooh ooh! vicki! gently! you little sod! oi! go and do it with your dolly, go on! where is she? go on i'll go and get her. that's sick! disgusting innit ! mind your foot vicki! come here! keep still vicki! mind the chair! oh god ! it's her! what is it about hair? she didn't hear us! nearly! she did! oi! gently! oh! give her that back! gently! go and play! go on then! no ! get off! well let go then! give it back to stephanie nicely! come over here! no ! who come see yeah. you last night? di. no she didn't! fifty eight point nana and granddad. what is it gonna be? di! no! take fifty three. no! who come to see you? fifty five granddad. fifty six, fifty seven, fifty eight granddad no, who's got a blue van? well that's three in one is it? no pete ! just the three. three in one. pete ? uncle three in two. stuart. i got three in one to come yet! banda! and they hopa yet,for germany. this is havvaher. gerald! gerald. gerald. it's all on that fall. no this is one ! yeah but is that canada one or canada ? no you're not having any sweets cos it was canada , was it canada one or canada two? yes my okay. joe give, oh yeah joe will give you sweets won't he? ah! i like pee pee! give me! yes, yes we upset. gonna get them now. yeah? go on then you'll be able to see mummy from work. granddad. i've been up the bath. oh yeah. he come home thursday. here are phil. that's what? has he got that thing going? i don't wanna make . yeah i think so. nanny! yes. what? why have you got the sound up on the telly then? philip! cos i'm listening to the kids. philip! you and the bloody telly, he sat there with the ashtray in his hand and all bloody ash is falling out the bottom! just rub it in. who's that? here are. i dunno. is the guy with this? yeah. this is the hopa, this german man. weeee no, this is a swede! you got a nappy on! bander. oh! no. they've already won a two man bobsleigh . ha! oi! yeah, that fucking england should have won that! well yeah but that's life innit? fucking so, grundy, fucking the lost it all! they're having fucking ! thorpe wasn't too bad. for the first leg he was oh it's cold innit? yeah. and really windy do you think? the course was crap! that man coming to do here are look! my windows again thursday. but i but i mm. hit eye. and what about ? you don't like him do you? no. which one? but they keep it. they keep the lead well don't they? and they don't . here are! most of them get back into it in a big way . come and clean my windows and i owed him from the last time. that's why they do it in the middle but it's go on! the first still . car! come and look! ooh ee! mm. gone. he's harmless thought ain't he? yeah he's gone. i sit a mummy. don't you think it's horrible round here? ooh! that is, this. but he won't do them now! not only that, if you paid thirty pound you could go down there couldn't you? ah mummy! there's a yeah? i mean he wanted ah. to keep them ah. . ! mummy! they're not interested in them yeah? now cos . but the thing is you won't they're seconds the thing is so where's england? england's been knocked right down now haven't they? seventh. hey ! vicki! vicki! but erm but the thing is they ca , they co the blokes don't have to behind don't see that much do they? they got their head down, see that right! play with the other one sam? here's hopa! see they got they're head down all the time. have to get out one of them dolls phil. gonna have to get one of them dolls, she loves them. yeah alright. alright. he's got hasn't he? oh yeah . play with the other one! look! play with that one! that one's nice over by there cos it's got the long hair. yeah but one's not gonna fit! yep! i knocked out by four. i'll play er germans. i'm waiting for you. germans. even wait outside . german's off! mummy! ah ! vicki! where's she's going to? where's she going? not me! you're not to come down until baby! aye ? said so. fifty eight point one. what about the baby look!! mm! eight pound! ooh! that's a weight of did you tell her we'll wait here? i'm waiting here so but ma mummy! don't you think so? we left off eight pound and mummy! at three and a half months! yeah, i mean personally. she. she. that's right. it's ! oh you want in that do you? think so. right. no! going in all over that's the position anyway! there are phil that's from last night. if i give you that four. alright. vicki! mm mm! wee wee! is that for me? that's for your sister. there you go! oop! had my ah shit on my foot! cos i was late. wee wee! do you see brookside last night? no! no cos he don't let me watch it! crap! you don't! it wasn't me last night! that's crap! why don't you watch it? last night. urgh! hello! it was good! then i do normally watch it with you. you didn't watch it last night. only mondays. your lying again well again to me! i'm not allowed to wednesdays cos your mum don't watch it on a wednesday! well that's nothing to do with me! you can't blame me oh that's nice ! then can you? can't blame me for that! er end of . cos she was would she?cake who? cake? no! for her birthday. yeah, a big cake. got her some . said happy birthday well na we, they the cake and er she wouldn't wouldn't sit down so terry kept saying to her right now what you doing? she said, hang on wee wee! a minute! they come right up . called us all in the lounge and gave us a bottle of taboo back in with her, like. and about that much left in the bottle so er seventy mile an hour. went and got the lemonade so i was tipping it in, so terry goes, he goes i'll have it all! urgh! throw us a drink! yeah. yeah, one point two. gerald come in and he said you been on the piss already? i said am i hell! i said i gotta be bloody sober! you didn't you get ? you got cake as well then? yeah! bought me a chocolate sponge thing. oh gary and me and i feel her and vicki had a piece. and he said, yeah take what . and i said, well i'll put it back in the fridge and she said no, she said take it home she said yeah but i bought it for you. when you're thinking about it it's not even a second out. what's wrong with her? so then she come round and she said i don't even do this for karen! another one down there. she said karen wouldn't be very happy if she found out! ooh yes! if she finds out. i said, but who's gonna tell her? who me? it's a lot innit ga ? so i thought well i'm not! what? it's a lot in this innit? yeah. yeah! and then she said er when she all that! come home from work she said i've been looking round in boots and that for you, she said er i've decided, she said i was gonna get you a gift voucher. twice you've just i'm watching you two! for for marks and spencers or ah? somewhere like that she said, but i've er decided not to, she said i'll give you the money on saturday if that's alright? only . you mean what i said so i said er but i know you're off to torquay on friday with di, cos that's him hinting, thank god it's out! so she said er after calling me a bastard and all this now so she i , i'll sort you out on saturday! so what ah! next saturday? ooh! you love them really don't you? so she said er it won't only be fiver cos she said oh yeah! you can't get a lot with a fiver. yeah. so i thought well ! put it back! probably five pound fifty ! yeah ! yeah! i thought about that! listen no wonder he's world champion he can go afford to skiing, his dad's a multi-millionaire! but er no, we were talking and she said if i give you the money you won't go and spend it on the yeah. kids will you? i said, you gotta be joking ! i said, i normally do he's loaded ain't he? but i said no, this time i said he goes for it don't he? not likely! yeah. mm. with vicki just having her birthday she's got all she needs now isn't it? well that's it and . but she hasn't got a helicopter . you leave him alone! leave him alone! i want a ! ? no, i'll go and spend it in one myself. that's alright. you'll have to off to do something like that, communal i want a wee wee! and di will be really pissed off anyway by the time we've walked round all them shops! ooh! ooh! ooh ooh ooh ooh! just there on the last no! ain't he? i want a wee wee! well how come yeah they're just showing some of the mistakes as well the windy down. ooh! here comes the i want a wee wee! i want a sammy wants a wee wee! ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh! you fellers i'll get up! ooh! he's gonna do the sound effects! down down and out. wee wee! wee! wee wee! see him . no, no. do it yourself! yeah, he's alright. go away! yeah ! go away you! go away! well won yesterday aye! to the, the no! but th wee wee. no, you don't want a wee wee cos i have to go . a wee wee! no, you don't! you got a nappy on! ooh! oh a big miss of that gear though innit? where's daddy? where's daddy? bet your popular with nanny! i am aren't i? what is it? get up! you love it really don't you? oh, what? the hole in the head, ain't you? yeah. come on phil! alright then. it's alright phil, i'll have him. you mean aye? yes, his next month out of his wages! listen to me! shut up! can't get no birthday money out of him! who? hurry up phil! any of yours? what thing? you shouldn't put there. yeah, but yeah i do say so! come on daddy! tomorrow morning, go down to marks and come back for my wages. oh that's alright then. my twenty five percent here cor that'll be an expensive month! i've already had mine. you'll get this and nothing more! and you wow! will get this and for twenty five pounds, aye? well i'd better go and get changed hadn't i? twenty four! yeah. shall i go and have a wash now? we're ready then? we're ready! i've only gotta change ready? him. just have to . so we'll see you later! yeah. what time? we'll be about no i was to co there's no black. yeah! that's right. oh yeah! there's no black. got the there? we can still play yeah. play with bank and then erm right! kick arse! we're gonna kick arse! who's first then? cor he's just the same! dot with , go fir don't we? yeah. whoever gets the highest dot can go can i borrow your ashtray? clockwise from there. here are. are you two keeping the ashtray? no. alright? there the i better grab hold of it. i got one here. oh he's got one. ooh pardon me! they're gonna wonder what the hell they're listening to, ha ! right. that's alright. so i gary, gotta swap tapes alright? don't be swine! what we doing then? ten thousand pound. so, you found a new one is it? it's only half there. he had it going for a while. i know but that's i'll keep my eye on it. that's only side b innit? yeah. mm. yeah, cos i su yeah it is. scrubbed out all the erm the bath antics and all that! couldn't hear nothing for splashing! come on then! it's what? where's the start? your leg ke kept erm knocking against the side of the bath. there! start of graduation, right. i'll be the little house then. i'll be gary's the re , i'll be the gary's the boat are you? if you like? i'm the ca , i'm the boat, yeah, king rat! well that's it. oh thanks oh the phil! trouble is our bath ju it's not big enough we'll get a bigger bath won't we? mm mm mm. saying nothing! go on then. mm. i can't see all the way over the way tu tu four aye? is there a lighter over there? if it's double do i get a second go? dunno. no! no! don't you get two goes for a double? no! it's not like monopoly then? yeah when you start the actual game you do. do you? oh so as i get another chance then? no you don't! not on this one. so i got four. now you can have a go. is this for highest score? this is who yeah. starts have you been? no, phil has! well, he's going that way ain't he? he's cocked it up! don't matter well alright! alright! you start first! no you don't go ah, only cos you got a low score! no he's his counts as four. seven. seven. right. mm mm. going clo , clockwise? doesn't matter which wa , that is clockwise! don't matter that's right! so, you were doing it right you prat! six. phil was right! mm. and then whoever gets the highest starts on there and goes clockwise. four. four. oh right. yes! gary! so it's gary right! you. going this way innit? going that way now? well that works out alright no! anyway ga gary had seven erm and you had six. no! four, four. clockwise! have i got, i'm going that way. is that the way it goes is it? i don't know which way you go! clockwise! which way do you go? i would have said that way. well you normally go no , i'd have said clockwise. normally go clockwise don't you? yeah. cos you don't start right next to those don't go straight across the racecourse. right here we go then! that way don't you? stop the chit-chat! let's go for it! seven. don't forget it's, no cos it's a . gift from dad, collect a hundred pound. what do you say? oh you big head! i missed that! what did you say ? oh hold on! what are we gonna don't forget it's do? you gotta go round two once! you gotta earn two things and yeah? five thousand pound and either a the diploma or a membership. that's right! before you can go up. yeah. that's right! and then unless you land five on that. unless you land on so it's five thousand and two for that one, and ten thousand and two for that one. what are we setting the end for? fifty thousand? well it says the no! no , cos you only have to go round five times don't you? ten thousand. don't matter! you do it as you says don't you? unless you set a time or something. cos then go it can't be ten, i mean you collect ten thousand as you every time you go round, so that's five times round. yeah, but that's why we done it though weren't it? or didn't you wanna do it like that? i don't mind! cos you gotta set a target now before yeah. well we've only got we start. one thousand anyway! two thousand. yeah, you need five thousand to get up into there. aha. and then you need ten thousand to get from there to there. so, twenty thousand. well you lot make no! cos you only have to go round twice cos you collect ten thousand when you pass there! and say twenty thousand! that's ten times round innit? up to you! yeah , that's easier say cos it's only a small board innit? hundred thousand? still takes a while though dunnit? cos you keep going round! say fifty thousand. alright , fifty. fifty thousand. alright. ooh! about quarter past nine at ! do we want the five on or not? no? no. just pass . gotta go round once before you can buy. that's right! mm. same as thingy. is that the same on all different games? yeah all board yeah. games innit. same with monopoly or but even when you go up you gotta go round once before you buy as well haven't you? mm, i suppose. mm. what's that? mm. a , yeah you gotta say you're going up. you say yo mm. i'm going to the higher class or whatever yes. it is. yeah, you say it after one go and you go up to the next go don't you? is that right? no. six. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven. your go ga ! we've all got the same money. started off with a thousand pound, two thousand pound. no i'm not, no it's not that i'm thinking of. ten. what's that? nothing exciting! it's a beauty shop. twelve. oh shit! oh i wanted that football pools! got eighteen and a half today on the pools! six, seven, eight! lot of score draws in that weren't there? lot of no fo you have a go on that. lot of no-score draws weren't there? now then, i can't remember what do you do! erm what's that? you can make that and put down as much as you want and then you roll the dice. mm. then you got it more than three times. that's right, you can only do a pair or something. oh ! is this your pairs? normally seven or an eight innit? well what yo , it's up to you innit? no , that was what we used to do weren't it? yeah, we used to, yeah. well, cos i'm a bit i ain't got much at the moment, i'll have hundred pound on two. seven. go for it! on seven. get three attempts don't you? six yeah. the first time innit? yep! yep! throw three . two to one , and then one to one. shit! nine. nine! three. whoa! five. where does that hundred go then? in the bank. in the , in the bank. oh right! does dunnit? yep! do you remember? yeah. i think you put it in the middle and then so like seven. if you land on a certain square you can keep it ! no that's only that's what you do in monopoly! if you put all the fines and that in the middle if you land on free parking you can keep it. what's that one say? collect wages, two hundred pound. yeah, you ain't gone past it yet. no! it don't matter! don't matter! should have it when you land on it. like there, or if you go past it. then you try and get you see. collect wages. ah, you gotta go past it to collect wages. nine. ooh ha! what's that? well away from the wedding! mine. from mine. from the wedding you can go straight up can't you? yep! but then you're absolutely skint when you get up there if you go straight mm. away! two, three why you gotta get some money before we go up there then? well you haven't got to! if you land on it you gotta go up! eight. six, seven, eight. eight. pardon me! one , two, three, four, five, six, seven eight. yeah. four. phil used to wait till i landed on the wedding what's that? collect good night at bingo collect hundred pound! that's what you'd like innit phil? pat took home erm yeah i heard about this. four hundred and twenty five quid she won! yeah, the other week did she? weren't it? and they shared it last week. between them weren't it? no. am i having two dice ? one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five. no it's not to go together is it? or is it? no! don't know. no! and that was, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven. we'll have to arrange that phil. ! eight. steal most of the food! want some more? this lovely ! i ain't drank it yet! that good is it? it's there look! still ice in there as well, you might as well have them! , inherit two hundred, miss a turn business lunch. what does that mean? you inherit two hundred pound and you don't get your next go! go on then! have you found out any ? somebody's died see! somebody's died, that's why! phil? what? found out how granddad is today? no. my go? mm mm. that's four , now someone's gonna go. and gary's dad wouldn't know! you gotta land on that to get yeah you miss your next go ! no! you gotta go no! pass it. to pass it. so you got two hundred ? mm. mhm. stop here! graduation day phil. and you can buy now. mm. oh! we could all buy now couldn't we? no! phillip can't cos he's gotta miss a go! i can't. your go. oh my go is it? eight. eight. eight. one , two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. you can start buying now. olive's jewellery. er a hundred pound. quartz watch, a hundred pound. hire purchase is twenty. you haven't got the cards though have you shel? yeah. yeah go on then! or even if i haven't, oh i've got them haven't i? cos you pay me that! ha! ha! thank you! so what do you get all the cards from? gotta have two of the cards need that first. and the money, and then a diploma or a membership card to go up. yep! just two of the cards? you don't have to have them all at one time? no. just yeah, but what happens if there were som , if somebody landed on it? dunno! nothing! oh nothing? it's not that ? all you gotta do , you gotta get from there to there to there and the one who gets there and gets a hundred thousand or whatever it is innit? fifty thousand we set it up to. oh! fifty thousand. they win don't they? they win! is it fifty thousand? yeah, it's enough innit?, mm mm mm remember i used to go mm mm mm mm mm mm mm. up to there, i always used to land on a bloody divorce! black's art gallery, i'll buy it! well we haven't got the cards for that but you can still buy it and i'll give you a credit card or something to use instead. yeah, whatever! what is it, twenty innit? so if you just use it like that then at least it shows you've got a card. hundred. hundred! hundred. so it is! and you get twenty back don't you, when you sell them back to the bank or whoever? four. one, two, three, four. ooh i'll buy one of them! you can make the cards what's that? fifty pounds worth of tuition. cos i need one of them, that's, what's that, a membership or a no, it's a diploma innit? right, i'll have one of . i need one of them. seven. one, two, three yeah! four, five, six, seven. ooh twenty times put twenty times roll of both dice! both dice? bloody hell! no!. want a big one here ! must have three or four now. twenty, twenty oh bloody hell ! three. twenty times? three. that's only sixty innit? sixty pounds. yeah, twenty times roll of both dice. there you go! i get thank you very much! you've had that all time though ju , ain't you? five. what's that? low scores when you come on that one. yeah. used to have that wi stock exchange. that's that one. the person on your left throws it for you. gary. yeah. and what so if you wanna put like a hundred or something on it's up to you what you put in on the sto , stock exchange. then gary throws it go on then. and he can have up to three goes. like, if he gets two you lose all of it but if he rolls a twelve you get your hundred pound back plus ten times that amount. so what number do, do i have choose a number? you don't choose a number. you don't choose a number? that's right! no. no, he don't choose you just throw it. a number you just throw it. he's put in a hundred so whatever you throw gotta work it out then. you know how to do this girls? mhm. just one go? no, you can have up to three goes. four. lose a third of your investment. so that's er yeah. seventy five quid. what do you wanna do? do you want me to go again? i'd go on it . but change that that's ! oh shit! that's ! thirty five. no he don't have to go for that no. does he? he can,yo can, you get three goes at it. he don't have to pick oh! he doesn't have to go for that. no i've got three goes. you can, you ca you he's got three goes. you got three goes. and it's up to him and it's up to you. do you wanna go on go again. and see if i can get higher go again. for you? go on! six. six. six. i got six. lose a quarter of it. no, go again. you'll probably a twelve ! nine! nine. nine! plus equal amounts. so you keep that plus. and you get hundred pound of that. jammy bastard! my go next. twat dice! mike used to do that didn't he, to me? i used to lose all mine! not very good! but though is it? what's that? no, how many have you gone? i went . mm. gonna have to start changing up the hundreds cos we've run out in the bank. he can go up now! he can go up if he wanted to couldn't he? now, there's five of change this. mine. no cos he hasn't one, two got erm three, four, five. he ain't got two cos i'll have a two cards or a diploma or a change that membership. does anyone else wanna change up any hundreds cos we're erm getting a bit short! ha! got loads of them here! oh yeah! big head! how many did we start off with? i've got four. i've only got four. that's alright. six and i've changed that five seven of mine. eight plus five. nine, ten. i got ten. well you don't wanna change them all do you? no, i'll change five. alright? this gives us some more back in the bank. make sure it's only one i'm giving him! another there's another five. how many does that leave you with then? none! yeah but you wanna keep some in case you land on the in case? stock exchange. i've gotta get my two hundred first shel! haven't i? did i just i just gave you it! oh did you? shel! aye i just give you five so how can you give me two hundred ? yeah, that gives you six. mm! ah! ha, ha ha! i didn't honest phil, yeah! i didn't . hold on! gary's given five, i gave five, and there was one left in there so that's one, two oh aye! three ooh, three no, i've only got this! four, five. that's gary's five, that's that's gary's five innit? three, four, five. i know you ! that's my five. one, two, three, four no, that's mine! and you give five ! that's right. they're trying it on again ! two hundred. another hundred, that's that's how it was before? yeah. oh! that's right, sorry! thank you! sorry! cor! trying to con were you? well i counted ten! aha. i like you! how, how can you have ten? aye? i've been round once more than you? cor! i'll have a go on that! no, i had that hundred didn't i? i had that extra hundred for the erm oh yeah! for granddad or whatever it was or something weren't it? granddad's birthday or something. go for eleven. ooh! will you now! how did they get so far in front of me! oh ! throw them off the board on purpose and, you know you lose all your money! shall i take both of one of them? yeah. you pass it to the two blokes. the only two blokes in the game. do you want that or eleven? eleven. don't she? aye? right! throw the dice off the ooh ! table twice oh gary , shut up! you lose all your money and give it to me and phil! ! is that right ? well ain't bloody on is it! they are! we used to gang up on our ju , didn't we ooh! darling? five to one, so that's only five hundred quid innit? hm mm. ooh ooh! jammy devil! i like this game! that weren't fair really because three. you cheated then! ooh! one, two, three. i'll have one of them! she cheated phil didn't she? that's why! what's that? membership , fifty pound. ooh country club! oh she's going posh! how did they get in front ? well you had to miss a go yeah, but i was you did. you miss a go. i was up with you lot then. no, you missed a go because of you got that two hundred pound. yeah, but i was still up with them two! cos i had the highest score . yeah, but you're a go and we've been to . did you want any, anybody want any crisps yet or not? no i haven't even finished there's some crisps down there! my sandwiches yet! seven. one pickles there! pickled onions if you want them. no. get the pickle out then . i can't buy it cos gary's gone up. you can! there's more than one! there's more than one. buy it then! buy it then! they're gonna think we're a right bunch of swearing pigs on there! is it still going? mm. alright if i smoke? no, because i've right! who's go is it? i've gary's go. did quite a bit of it it's your go ga ! this morning didn't i? that's why you didn't hear any of the bobsleigh cos i had the bloody thing going just as a dummy run. yeah, and i thought you said that you'd scrapped all that? no, i started again didn't i? didn't i phil? cos, who was it who said to me are you taping us? cos me. yeah. yeah, i thought something was going on cos you left the sound ten. down. six. one, two, three, that's right, four. what's that? green furniture. yeah go on, i'll have a bit of that she ! he's gotta get two of one hundred pound. type. ooh a microwave oven! ooh a microwave! eight. i've always wanted! no! no. two of anything innit? it's not er two of just one no, it's two of anything. two of anything phil. but you've gotta have either a night school or a you gotta have a diploma or a membership, plus all the money. i know! oh she's got no, you got a microwave ! i thought you had to have both? i was gonna say, i'm no. honest, i was gonna give only one. it to you. is that and ? yeah. yeah. why you take it off my pile did you? no, i couldn't reach your pile ! i know i've only got two there anyway! i think? yeah. ooh eleven again! shit! why couldn't i have had that last time! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, ah! dum, doo doo doo ! where do i go to? over there. divorce! yeah, that's what i land on nearly every time! she's gone up now. aha. oh shit! that means i gotta sell this back! i was gonna say and change you how much do i want erm yes, you gotta that. you just give them back don't you. no, you can sell somebody no. who needs them. you can sell to somebody that wants them. anyone wanna bid for it? no, i've got mine. aye, where's my card! i didn't get, oh there's my card! yeah, i'll i'll bid for that. what is it? i'll bid for that. diploma. it's a diploma. so you how much? could get that yeah! as well! i'll give you twenty for it! how much you give me for it? thirty. mm! i'll go hundred. yeah, but you gotta remember you could buy it for fifty! you gotta remember you can buy them for fifty if you land on it. that's true, yeah. so shel can sell it for a lot more than that. mm. cos if you remember mike used to go to bloody stupid yeah but he he he well he five hundred didn't he? he probably thought he was it because he was the new salesman, salesman director and i used to take the piss out of him! and we'd turn round and say well keep it! what have got, go up to? i'll go to hundred. go on then. i don't thi , i didn't buy any property either did i? aye! excuse me i'm ! so that means, what do i need now then? diploma? i'm you! would i get a ta aye! you took two there didn't you? i didn't! i took one ! aargh. i know your type. you now owe me five thousand pound and you can go up into the middle. that's what i've fucking always wanted! what i need is once you get on the wedding! either seven. that or high society. one, two, three, four, five six, seven. country club! i need country club then don't i? no, you'll need one or the other. shel i got that , i put that what have i got? and i've got a credit card! got one of those. no, one of the two i'll have one of those shel. things. but that's a credit card! well if you give me well it's only cash! that could buy me in! oh! if you give me a hundred and then i, that's my hundred from oh right! there innit? yep! yeah but count ooh i didn't collect mine when i went past either did i? yeah but shel if you got a credit no. card can't you just go stra buy and just write a cheque out and go straight in? say well, here's my credit card so i've bought that and i've my yeah you can but if you land on see that's diploma and that's not. the thing is this isn't a credit card is it? this is what's her name innit? so i can yeah. if i had five that's half of the thousand pound i could exactly! go up now. but no. if you land on that this one's that one? and you've got five thousand pound credit mm. it's still the same. oh yeah! that one. yeah. that's my that's right. membership that's class or black's art gallery and that innit? that is mm. classed as mm. a i thought they had to be both the sa , same . . no, you how we are ta , doing for time? no, just two of anything. oh! he wants to bust the ! i wanna bust something else! do you see madonna in the paper yesterday? five. in the news? no. did you see madonna in the paper yesterday, naked! yeah. ugly looking bitch! i'll buy it! i'll buy one of those! for fifty quid ! there are see! phil's just landed on it, it's only cost him fifty quid! that makes me sick! i ain't got five thousand pound. you see madonna in the paper? have we got yesterday's paper? yeah. in there? there you go! i shall on saturday. no, it's not on there. there's friday's. so i can go up look at the state of this phil! a after i've got the card. she looks repulsive in this! got my card. i think she looks disgusting! have you got five thousand pound? fifty pound now, oh right! no! she looks bloody disgusting were you going to tell me that? don't she? it's alright. oh ! oh my god! posing as a bun on the front there. bunny girl for as a bunny girl for bloody a porn magazine! porn magazine. come on! your turn ga ! gone right down now! she was on my favourite top ten list, but she's not now! mind you, she was brilliant in bed! oh! dream on! i don't need that do i? no. cos you don't need to keep buying you just gotta keep going round yeah, that's right! collecting money. shit! go on then! i ! er, one, two did he wake up then? three, four, five, six, ooh ooh! seven. ooh shit! six. what do you get then? the shits! complete the course then. what do you get when you pass there? a thousand pound. a thousand pound. mm. so if i go round in oh! five times then get divorced is that the thing you get? and i can go straight what? back up when i've bought the two of them then. er, ten. one, two, three, four, five did you have any of them pickled onions or not? six yeah. seven, eight what they like? nine , ten. they're alright. a bit strong. don't need five. got ten . i've just gotta get one now. they're certainly not as old as ours are they? we've had ours about two years! twelve. mr thought they were nice though ! must be getting that way. mind you, she did them about four year ago! aha ! twelve. er ten , ten times the roll of both dice. two hundred quid shel. oh!haven't i? ooh! hoo! four hundred and twelve thousand two hundred! no! twelve thousand two hundred. twelve hundred. yeah, that's erm twelve hundred pounds. that's it! mm. it's not funny! i failed to get there! what's that, six? yeah. gift from dad could of told you it was! collect a hundred pound. oh i could do with one of them! is my dad gonna give me a hundred pound? ooh i keep sa go on ga ! what do you do with that hundred pounds is the trouble! mm mm! i got it! and more. welfare payments. mm! fifty times ro , oh, roll of one dice! love ! good one! six. how ma three hundred and fifty. three fifties then. nine. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. get out of there! nine. stop tapping dear! look at all these scum down in that lower class! ha! and you fucking lot in the middle class! oh hold on, i've got to collect this thousand pounds and i'll oh right! have a go on the race track. mm! what! what! you lot can you throw those dice here. snob! another five hundred there, what! ya! everything okay ya! ya! okay ya! that's forty okay ya! erm i'll go from ten actually! yes,! oh fuck! i should of gone up there! two to go then. and i'll go up. woa! oh! ! yeah, put it in the bank! shit! high class! stuff it up your arse! oh excuse me , no i'm middle! middle. oh middle class, stuff i seven. one, two, three, four, five, six oh middle class, stuff it up your arse! that's english! seven. oh there you are again! football winnings, twenty times roll of both dice. oh sure . i'm gonna get bloody twelve or something like that! oh shit! there are see, six! so what's that? that's six six twenties are hundred and twenty. six twe er , hundred and twenty. oh better than nothing i suppose! eight. oh middle class, stick it up your arse! one, two, three , four, five, six, seven, eight. i'm in the higher class, well shove it up your arse! leave that there. it's on the table. mm. one, two, three, one, two, three! oh shit! here are. can i change that? this is what i done last time, and i stayed behind and i just don't matter. sneaked up, and sneaked up, and sneaked up and won! and i woke up then! with his mouth shut! and yeah, wet dream then didn't you? come back for and how would you know? problem is was you there? yeah i was. oh! ! here are. have one of them. tape's still rolling! four. shall i in and i'm still rolling along ! in five minutes ? four. tape's still rolling! ha! here are! come on down! the price is right, so they say! it's bugger all ! er er er! gary stop coming! just cos your jealous cos you don't know how to! teach me! teach me! so you'll probably them sent five. to you with an obscene note ! one, two, three four can i have my two hundred please? no! oh wow! make it two hundred pound. well it's better than a kick in the teeth isn't it? in a win five hundred pound three. on the race horses. one , two, three. oh fucking hell! i got another hundred ! ooh! ooh! ooh! no, i ju , did you see that? that was sneaky phil, weren't it? it was sneaky! we were putting our money there,money! just so ga your . i've only gotta go round here five times now and buy shit! you ! two. that didn't get me very far did it? no! your going right up to the top aren't you? ha. your in the high class now aren't you? ah ya! i'm a proper snob now! mm! what! what! you stick by one. two hundred pound please? oh! gary! your go my love! just cos the ferrari the other night! seven. now where are you? seven. i'm up here dear! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. can't do any frigging worse have i? your not. i got a long way to go to get to high class. . one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. i could buy my way out couldn't i? ten thousand pounds! oh yeah, real snobby oh, aye! jammy tike! oh, better make space for my money, what! nine. yeah,wa watch her she's a , she's in charge of the fun er who would listen to that yeah, okay. through a at the beginning of every single tape ! it's good i yours. mine. thank you. did i get i suppose! yes you did! oh right! had that bloody ages ago ! stop it! no, it's not it's that shit that no i ain't got one of them. got one of them! fuck off! haven't we? he paid out two quid for that as well! alright! don't keep rubbing it in! don't worry about it! i'm not depressed! yet! two, three, four, five. one, two, three, four pass. five. pass. better than prison! pass. three, one, two, three, good night at bingo collect a hundred pound. gee! oh right! shame i don't go! yeah, go on have this one here! i can't remember the last time i can i? yeah, i know. er ooh but the thing is . my go is it? no mine. you been? this is nice! you been? spring, spring onion? it's difficult to say yeah. he's just done here. what's that, two? yeah. oh! phil have, have you been phil? yeah. no. four ain't he? oh i'll go again! five hundred, thirty four. i can't buy nothing cos i can't afford it yet. mm mm! ten. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine oh! ten. i got one of them. so have i. don't want one. yeah, but he's . oh aye! six. sex. ha ! give some back it's cor! it's obviously not real is it? more like a loan aye, phil? six. i've got, i've got buy this, another thing yet. permission football pools winnings twenty times aren't you? both dice. well, he's gotta buy another oh! thing. six. well buy and olive one. twenty sixes. mm. six twenties would be five a hundred and one thousand two hundred and twenty. well! god sounds too high! one, two, three oh! four, five, six, one, two, three, four, five. and times! yeah might just a little banker! so why well it's haven't you bought anything yet? my banking system is . well i can't afford it! it's only three thousand! i wish i could! five, six, eight. only! yeah okay. you bet your there are ten thousands i got that again. i'm gonna wait till i've got enough money. oh! i'll be up there! i'll be going in a minute! take your turn again. seven. so seven twenties, hundred and forty. i keep my money hidden me cos it's keep landing safe. on that don't i? i'm doing four quite well! three, four your go. run out of tens. so i'll have a go on the race track. don't send me off. don't send me off phil! alright. do i have to open them? i have to open don't i? well if i give you them back yeah, that's five. we can have a go at this as well can't we? no. no you can't. it's only on the lottery where you can go on there. two, three , four if i give you five alright? i'm pissed off! i might as well go to nine go for nine alright? ooh! yeah! three hundred pound! oh you do it! cos i got the camden race course. no, that's your line of work. they can be so kind! shit! hey! jammy shit! nine hundred. nine nine hundred quid. plus that van. i'll keep mine. no he yes. keeps that. that'll just mean so if you give us two of i do them back. two of them. no, one of them. no , ten times one of them. one of them. just one back. that's ten in ten into one. and i've got three hundred on so i get oh yeah! three hundred pound! mm! you jammy bastard! i know. mm. your go again. you nearly took that off my fucking pile! you'll soon have the five thousand phil! not as daft as you though! you've can't you got bloody talk! yeah, well i keep winning you just took that off my pile! the er football pools and the bingo ! you just took that off my pile! unemployment insurance payments ten times roll of one dice. oh! and as well? that's great! six. so, that'll be forty two. mm mm ! i'm watching you! you were getting a bit close to my bloody money then! i'm not like that! no! don't run in the family! don't you you! your supposed to be sticking up for me love! you know i'm not a bad loser! fucking hell! shout to get on the you know i'm not a bad loser! so don't do it else i'll pull the table apart like i la , tipped the table in the air ! oh very stroppy! i held oh get stuffed! i thought i was tricked! mm! well on the top and your the one with five hundred, you scrooge! i've only got three hundred. and you've gotta beat three hundred and we're only the lower card! yeah! you call yourself a scot! number eleven this time. mm that's put it in the bank! ooh! just put it in the bank! two, two, two, two, four, five, four, five money bye bye so that's a thousand pound you messed up down there! money, bye bye ! eight. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. ooh! stock exchange, two hundred pound . now then, what happens here, can't remember? person for . oh my god! use your , use your two hundred pound then you've saved up. yeah. go on then phil. what shall i go for? anything? yep. i know the that'll do! ooh! eleven. eleven. plus five times. yeah, we'll stick with that. so do you get that back plus a thousand. interest free. ooh! thanks very much phil! aren't you ready to go up yet? join me and . can't i don't think, i ain't got five thousand. but i have! i have, but i'm not going up. one, two, three, four, five, six i'll have some more of this delicious seven. cope! roll one dice and it's ten pounds bacardi and coke oh well really! liquid, you have owe her thirty five pound. here are, do you wanna change that first. right. selling that. thirty. no i've only got three and half thousand at the moment. more than me then! i've got twenty to , about twenty three thousand. we'll be going prisoner in a minute! well a bit more well not yet ! than that, i might have got nearly four thousand haven't quite got enough you got erm yet. you'll be going to prison in a minute! i'll be getting divorced! is that okay? i got three and a half thousand. oh yeah! you stay. ain't i melanie? who's go? your go ga ! gary's go. oh! shit! if i get yeah. that's a thousand times a roll times a roll one ooh ooh ooh! if we if we get to alimony, i've seen the film! four. you're out! one, two, three, four. bloody hell! oh that's all it was! that's er, give that to me i'm not a bloody but you can sell your things off. oh yes! i got a two lovely there. who wants . i only want i'll buy you out on that ga . green furniture. yeah , yeah i'll buy that? who wants, who wants another coffee? go on , do something quick! no. i'll pay you fifteen quid. you only get twenty back go on then fifteen. if you sell it to . do you want this, the ploughman? no i've got that one. no, just have twenty in the bank. you don't get anything back for them do no. you? in the bank. oh screw you! so you can get twenty back for your other one. i got fifteen. no! for your other one! oh yeah! oh yeah, i'll have don't they have one as well? no, no, so stop it! give us another twenty, fifty a twenty, ha ! do i get my money as well for passing? you got your money for passing! you did not just give me my money for passing! you got it from there! cos your own insurance! yeah! alright! i've just been, i got to there. oh yeah, so have i. you were on shit! ha. seven. one, two, three, four, five, six oh shitting hell! i keep landing five. on that! patience is a virtue darling, you'll soon go up! eight . yeah. make them as bad as a ! five. i'm up. no you're not! no you're not! how did you work that out? you're on insurance , one, two, three, four, five. gary had it that's four and he went up and he was one place yeah! in front of me. no, you were both on that. you got five? yeah gary had, yeah gary had landed on that. four, one, two, three, four you've got five. yeah but i was, i was on the same place as i was one behind him! no! no you weren't you were on that one. you on the stock exchange! i was on the stock exchange. but? you're doing it again, you're trying to cheat! no! no! ce certainly weren't me! i was trying to you go there. work out what i needed to go up see. get divorced. one, two, three, four, five, six, one, two, three! oh ! can't buy till you've been round once! i know! screw you and all! she's gonna get one, two i'm not a bad loser phil three, four, five but, you know! oh i think i'll buy one now. if you know the table's going up in the air you know it's time to , oh that's mine i can't buy my own! it's alright we've got plenty of time! seven. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, ooh! who's got the control to the, to the telly? but i'm gonna miss a go. who's got the controls to the telly. i have, down there. oh jason's on, jason ! i might set the tape. i see erm philip schofield's finished the old er and it's erm joseph and the er that tape's got one foot in the grave on it? yeah. yeah. richard wilson. that's on sunday night innit? yeah. yeah nine. bloody brilliant! did you see last week? one, two, three , four, five, six, seven, eight ! nine. what's that? yacht club. that's your membership. you haven't been yeah, yeah. round yet. how many? it only wants a measly thousand pounds, alright? oh no , you ca you gotta go round first ga . i've gotta go round the start haven't i? yes. a measly? it's good enough for me! you were gonna buy that weren't you? snob! two, three, four, five, six, one, two, three, four, five! hold on! where was i? one, two, three, four, five, six, one, two, three, four, five, oh for . have i gotta miss a go? oh i gotta collect ten watch her ju , she cheats! thousand. oh i'm my own bloody square again eight! so i can't buy it! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. oh i'll have another go. yeah, down . rich uncle leaves you ooh! ooh! five hundred. you want . well leave that for a minute then. just down one. one, two, three, four. how you doing down there ? oh god ! what is it? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. so you can guarantee if i get divorced from there down to there i'll land on fucking and end up back here! lovely innit! then i got pots and pots of money! ! loads of money! what's that say? it's just a thing that so haven't you two got five thousand pounds yet? no. what's that, a three? yep! one, two, three. enter oh christ! what does that do? you can start buying now. yes. three. one, two, three. ooh, well i'll buy one of those! ooh! one can only get three thousand pounds . mm mm! well for the time being i don't wanna go up! one, two, two hundred and fifty you're in the middle aren't you? so there are! one, two, three, four, five a designer jogging suit! ooh! is that it? hey! put it them in the top! oh no, the top! aha! what do you think i'm oh sorry! paying for mink coat i was gonna say, cor! mink coat for pamela. no, it should be artificial shouldn't it? get her some coronations! why, who calls them coronations? she does. your mum was saying don't yeah. she? you know those flowers that you bought pam? yeah. and they were carnations weren't they? yeah. she went into work and told everybody they were coronation! she said it wrong! coronation street ! ten. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. you can go up now can't you? i'll go up next go. well no, i've gotta have your next got haven't i? and then go up. no, you can sit up there now. you don't, you gotta , you gotta past there and say go past there and say you're going up the next time yeah alright. in the middle class. oh, making up new rules as he goes along here! that's right innit! got to stop and then you say you're going up to middle class. one, two, three, four flipping talking, when they listen to that they'll burst their bloody ear drums! it's a good job it's not a video though innit? my god! see all the cheating going on wouldn't they? five. stock exchange. i know, you going to have a go on that phil? yes , i'll have a bit of a do on that. or is it going to be a measly five hundred, what? ooh!! mm! oh i've done it haven't i? yeah. number two here we go! i dunno, oh that's lovely! that'll do me!five times. five thousand pound. that means you can go up. and chuck one on the floor. that's what i didn't want that one did i? no. put one back now. you give me two. i'm honest, see! oh yeah! you can go up then after you've been yeah, you thought i'd be a cheat didn't you?he said that got a five yeah alright. oh he's got a ten thousand anyway ain't he? yeah. yeah. he was holding his hand out hoping that he would er get a bit and well i said if you give me after they've three gone out! i'll buy one of tho , oh no i won't! yeah, if you want it. oh go on! oh! oh, oh no i haven't got much change at the moment ga . how much do i need to go up? i've only got ten thousand! how much do i need to go up? ten thousand. i can go up. erm yeah, but you're gotta get of these. you have to have two of your properties that's right! i don't wanna go up anyway. two of your i wanna stay, i'm happy where i am! properties plus your membership. i got my yacht club thing have i? yeah, cos i've got that i think. three thousand , there you go darling! where di , yeah but you didn't give me it! oh you can have er did you? what? my yacht club. no, you landed on it but you haven't been round once. oh that's right, yeah you have just now! mm. bought a car for dianne! oh! oh yes!! porsche with the engine in and that! oh we got porsche! have you? no, i've got a stil , i've got an e , i've got an engine in the back of my car, oh it's a porsche! a turbo oh yes! one, two, three, four, five, six. i'll be right! you going up now? shall i go there somewhere no! you gotta wait oh no you've passed that one now haven't you? mhm. then when you get back you pay, you gotta pass it. so when you got pass there ju don't forget you say i am going up to middle class! you'll be ready to join gary will you? what! what! what! what do i do when i get five. that's a . oh that's mine anyway. seven. one, two, three, four, five, one, two. i can buy now anyway can't i? a jogging outfit there! yes, i shall have one of them. how much? i thought you be rich in a minute! five. no chance ! i doubt it! see, right if he still wasn't speaking to me properly i wouldn't have brought that off him! i i would have waited and bought one off gary and then he wouldn't have been able to go up would he? that's not very nice that! no, that's right! no, that's spiteful! i do that later don't i darling? in real life i do ! in real life i normally do. no, i've just had a go. she's had a go. you happy? i'll go again no offence! last night. one, two, three, four, five, one, two. right, i've already got one of those haven't i? yeah. yeah! it's er it's an artificial five. one, two, three, four, five, oh shit! an artificial mink coat for . taxes. yeah ! good job you stayed on there ju ! bloody hell! gonna have to stay there another, a longer darling! oh bloody hell! twelve twelve want to ask me what they want ju ? see, i knew she was gonna say that ! oh bugger! oh you're gonna set my cousin off there! i'll take a hundred and fifty now! seven. cor! i always land on that bloody thing! credit due. pay ten percent interest. pay ten percent interest. no you haven't got any credit have you? no. no. alright then! six. one, two, three, four, five how do you pay for printing then? six. yacht club please? only if you're up here! and my thousand please? so you only want eight hundred. why? yeah, cos it's two hundred sorry, is it? oh yeah! one, two, three is it all worth it just go on that? then someone's hogging all these one hundred pounds! i've got some. i've got some if you want some. i got about fifty of them if you want them. now, two three, one, two, shit! five. well i'll cut my ten there are. thousand, i've got a roll there's five from phil and five from me. i'll hold on to mine. is that the yacht club? better check mine. yep! did i have mine on there? yeah, i did didn't i? how many times you been round shel? dunno. why? only about three innit? who's go is it? why is she cheating is she? have you done, have you yours shel? i've had my go. she cheating or something? she's on taxes. go next. she was trying to get out of that ! what is it? pay a thousand pound. oh! roll the one dice? both dice. ha! ooh! one go? yes! i got double six! five thousand! five thousand charlies! oh well wow! it's only a measly bless you! round the go once innit? this is the money. it's only once round the track isn't it? isn't it? six. one, two oh! three isn't it? four isn't it? ooh i've only gotta get my i need that! diploma now haven't i? yeah but you, you wa you want the er how much do you need fifty oh shit! i need fifty don't i? you haven't got it you got ten, twenty one, two you got about twenty five if you're lucky! i've gotta get er i'm not gonna give it you now! i've got er fifty seven, seven, twenty eight er go up next go. four, five, six, seven, eight, nine now you say it! ten, eleven he has done. eleven. well you put yourself there now don't you? no! yeah, and then his next go starts on that. yeah! so i've just you mean, you mean i just again? no! should go up there. innit? you prat ! you'll be, you'd be going the all bloody night wouldn't you! that's my erm things start from counting from there. yeah! yes! two, three oh! yeah, cos he had eleven. five , six seven oh no, no, no! eight no! no! no, no, no, no, no you cheat! eleven. i would have landed on stock exchange. no! cos you gotta stay down yeah. there. no, that's it. yeah. as soon as you when you get to there. does that mean i've gotta stay on these? when you get to there yeah, or yeah. whatever! i'll be them. but we don't need them! just going back to the bank for twenty so pound a time. twenty whoever you bought them pound a time. off of. don't wanna keep the no! no, no, no! no, cos it's two hundred in that one and you gotta start afresh to go above there and you want five thousand as well don't you? aye, hold on! do i have to pay five thousand? no! you only need five thousand. i don't need a thing! i don't need a membership for that! no, cos there isn't one! oh wow! ha ! right, so i owe you twenty pound i haven't got any tens, you'll have to change that. banks. no, that's mine! mm mm. oh you have to and the bank owes you twenty pound, forty pound. one, two, three, four you owe me thirty pounds. mm. right! thank you. oh i like this game! sorry! i've only got to go round another three times! not bad on that ! one, two, three, four , five, six, seven. thank you. five hundred again! pound. ha! just put it with the you know, about eighty thousands i've got! ooh! not bad for ! i don't eight. want any there st , looks like a one , two, three, four, five, six, seven and oh wow! oh , here we go again! can we go to the bank. go for a hundred pound. oh it's me innit? er we , it's that all the christ! that's why i said your going for a thousand ! yeah! look at all that! no! take a chance on it! ooh! eight. eight. eight. your best move plus one half one half. ooh! go for it again and see how much yeah, go for no, go on! hundred! oh my god! do you trust me? no! ooh no! seven that time. go again! seven. go on then! i might do another one! eight again! eight! ah , that's back, take that and then five investment first one hour. hundred. watch her ju ! watch her! oh where shall i put my five hundred? got a lot of, lot of room have i? just stick it in that hole there! ooh, get lost! three. ooh look at that! one, two, three. right, i'm up! there you go. see you in a minute! see you in a mo ! soon i'll be rushing oh! to i'm getting that's twelve then. yeah. eleven, or whatever i had. so you're sell it back to whoever. really. bank . one's mine. yep. you sod ! so it didn't matter what i got as long as you got a you, you want your a . that's twenty pound innit? one two, three, four mhm. five, six, seven you don't get anything for eleven. aye, i gave him twenty pound for that aye, olive's jewellery. fucking membership! shall i buy olive's jewellery? , that's good! no you can't cos you can't buy till your okay. first round can he? what's that for? can't buy till you've been round once? i paid you twenty quid for your bloody membership! kept back for that! oh! oh! don't tell me that! what's that, seven? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. i'll buy the northend bar did we? you need two of them didn't you? yep! and one of them? yep! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. er er er! another ten thousand, what, what, what! nearly there! nearly there, nearly there chaps! what? twenty thousand we said didn't four. we? no,fifteen ! one, two, three, four. i can't buy anything cos i gotta round once. she's gotta go down! she's gotta go down! gotta get this is the first time i've stayed up this long! a six. and it's a good job it's a woman saying that cos they'll wonder what the hell we're on about! five, six. up! no! no, you can't! yeah what did you do that for? you gotta go round once and you ain't gone round! i still collect money! six. six thousand. bad loser i'm no not! okay? one, two, three, four,fi i i i i ive ! i'll have that one. that's phil's. do i need that one? yeah. yeah. car sale. i'll have one of them phil. so that's just a five hundred one innit? yeah. i'm in the cars. well that's that's er and i look down on no one actually. ching but i look . because she is hire class! it's called a cv two. yes ! and check her round about for jane. thank heaven for little jane ! oh thank god for that! seven. cos little jane couldn't get as clo , if i sing they might one, two, three, four, five six say i can't buy anything cos i'm on my first time round. any chance of being recording, come i'm off! for you! one, two, three, four yacht club! can't buy it though! no you can't. it's only first mm ! time round. eight. one, two, three a recording contract's not a company. stock exchange and higher than mine, ha ha ha ha ha ha! . and you're frozen! yes. sells. sells. oh oh oh! they want a low one look at them! ooh bloody hell! how much is he putting on it? three thousand? get a two. ooh! eight thousand! he trusts you! may as well give it straight to the bank. oh what have that'll do me! you done! investment plus five times! eight thousand. five eight, forty thousand! thank heavens for have you got that much? cos i'm nearly there ! it was on there shel aren't i? are you sure that's right? i must be there shel. yeah, you got eleven didn't you? yes, that's right. so investment plus oh hang on! sorry! is plus five times. he put in eight thousand so five ah yes. eight thousands five eights are forty, forty thousand. i'm not far off am i? that's more than i've got! i should come down aren't i? yeah, you must have forty. yeah, cos you've only got, that's but i five thousand i is there four ? yeah,yo don't put are they? are you sure? forty eight thousand. mm mm! yeah. yeah. you could go up to top group ri straight well yes away. but do i want to? that's the thing, do i want to? i'm there aren't i? well with th yeah, cos put in it have they changed your two hundred pounds in there? you put in eight thousand. yeah, i was gonna say hundreds! so change six hundred thousand. no we've put in eight thousand. eight thousand. so five eights i do i don't mess are forty. when it comes to the big stuff, go for it! don't i darling? gary! your go. he's always got no fucking money! what are we doing? are we going to a hundred thousand then or what? my god! i've only got three! could we go to hundred thousand or not? dunno. it's only a thousand pound. yeah, cos if you're going for fifty we'll go if you're going we'll go to a thousand if you go to a thousand she'll only have to come and do it now cos well i've won ain't i? well you've still gotta get your i don't need to do i? your things. he's got them! he can go up! he can go i i up now. alright, but i don't want to. yeah but you have to put onto them no, you haven't got them for your no, what the hell! i'll stay, i'll just, i'll just yeah because you could end up what we going up to? being divorced. what we going up to now then? whatever! fifty or ten, whatever! hundred and fifty, or hundred and ten, yeah . that's terrible! hundred thousand hundred thousand , right cos that's only ten times we did with martin and kim didn't we? cos they had this argument before, kim said five, five hundred fifty o fifty thousand and kim said no we'll make it hundred thousand cos tell you about that have you been shel? yes. with a throw of a dice you can go right up couldn't you? you've been up again? here we are, spinning! how much is it to go up anyway? six five. seven thousand. nine. ten thousand actually. can't afford it like that. yeah, you just got a fucking forty thousand you bastard! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. have over ten thousand. i'll have a thousand , er shel? five hundred! er! i still can't buy cos it's only my first time bloody round! go for it! you don't , you just go straight for it! so's phil innit? we can't buy at the moment. did you give me money did you? yeah! oh! so i've kept my money. yeah. so yes. oh yes. too late to give me a loan? what do you need a loan for? you've got more money than what i have! i think i'll try that next time i'll save it for myself! you didn't say that, you're going up this time if you wanted that. i could do couldn't i? i've gotta get to there though first. aha. mhm. mm. oh . what's that? six. six. one, two, three, four, five, six. i'm going anyway. that's the size of the bloody bloody hell! it's a good job it's not five thousand innit? er, i mean fifty. gree dee da da da da da da ! i've gotta sell these off now. let's hope you get er, one, two and open the middle class three, four. let's hope you get and both of you get past to five. ten you can rent ones. yeah you can buy off ga . yes, you can you can buy off mm. me. me and phil then? yes. i've got two i've got ee, erm clo yacht club card for sale. what do they get back on them? they only get hundred pound do they? i'll give them hundred for them. yeah , but you don't get anything for his yacht club. so he paid two hundred quid for it. damn good ! give him hundred hundred and thirty! oh my, you total sod ! can't you make it a rounded fi , hundred and fifty! hundred and fifty then! yeah. that's what i was gonna say! well i've gotta have it haven't i? who's gonna have the other fifty. so have i! oi! who's gonna hundred and fifty. i'll give him the two. what, the two hundred? cos you got haven't you? two fifty. i'm not going any okay. higher! she takes it! well if i'd have known that before else i'll go and land on the . yeah, you bloody wait! i'll go and land on it now and i'll be bloody pig sick! i'll give you thirty, forty i'll gi yer fifty i don't want hundred quid notes i ju , oh well i ain't got any fifty pound notes so ! well,! no i won't! want these? anybody want these? i'll i'll give you hundred quid for each one. oh well! it's your money! aye, aye, aye yeah! i'll do the here! i'll take that off you because right. he's decided to sell it to phil now! and i and these there, i got two of these for sale? and i used your five hundred. when it's, you paid five hundred each. i paid five hundred for them. but he can only get a hundred pound back if he's get it from the bank. hundred and fifty for one. each. for one? mm. yeah, for one. correct. i'll give you hundred for that other one. that's all you get fro from the bank. no. i could buy it straight more! away. how no. much do i get from the bank? hundred. hundred each. i'm gonna be a bastard! give me two hundred for them both. that's right! cos you're more likely to land on oh hold on! i can't i ca i can . no you can't! yes! you've gotta give him hundred for yours and you've gotta give him hundred for yours! yeah, cos it's not innit? oh shit! course you have, yeah! never mind i'll, don't matter does it? what? you've gotta give him hundred quid. you've gotta give me a hundred. yeah! and i've gotta give one of them now. gary hundred. alright. ah shit! bloody hell! my eyesight that bad now is it? your thing. one, two, three, four have i been? don't i get a go then? yeah, you've been! yeah. eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. oh yes, i'm up with shel aren't i? up in the higher class. yes! blimey we ain't even gone round once yet phil! i can't buy anything enter the higher class! yet! until we get to bloody there! do you want some more of this lovely coke! oh god! a ten. haven't got a glass . oh look at that! just missed the flipping stil missing some some there. taxes! about time! still going now! i don't whether there was something there's another bottle of that. anybody got any more nuts? three that was nice! four, five, six. bought some coke? no i'll go. alright, we've just got the green ones. no not like that. i was gonna say do you want got any dosh? get another bottle? oh phillip don't be such a swine! yeah , i i'll pay for it! i got loads of dosh, look! here are ju ,gi you some money go down and buy you some go on ! buy yourself a new fur coat and that! oh yeah! i don't want a fur coat! could you imagine it, going in? go in i've had that coat could you imagine it though going into so somewhere like dotty's or whatever and saying well well, i bet i have help yourself darling just just take one of these little notes and , ya! so you can buy a twenty four carat gold necklace darling! what! what! ah! not for you that's for certain! no it'll probably in the shed wouldn't it dear? yes. my go? mhm. what's that? six. bit below the belt that! one , two, three, four no shel! five, six black, oh it's guy! you been round once? no you haven't. you haven't been round once yet. put them back! i'm just looking! only looking! i ain't even got round! my go! how you doing shel? not very well! nor me? two. shit! one, two, three you know. four, five, six, one, two, three it's only a gamble! it does quite well sometimes. four, five. i'm divorced! i've done that a few times with ju ain't i? are you divorced! oh you're not are you? yeah. oh what a shame! ha ha, oh what what ! shit! a thousand poun , times roll of both dice! pay alimony a hundred times the roll of both dice, return to lower class! eight thousand! lower class! return to lower class! yeah but where to though in shame innit? lower class? just there? mhm. she goes back to there? mhm. there. and she's gotta go round eight thousand. well he's only getting she's gotta sell them all off. two thousand back! yeah , you gotta sell them all off now! yes! and i don't need any of that! for how much? whatever we gotta give them back to her? i'll give you we gotta give her no, gary can buy them off me if you want. but i can get five hundred from the bank. i'll give you or five hundred each of . i'll gi you five , i'll give you five hundred from both. you'll still be in debt shel cos he's got forty well shall i give him she can get five hundred each off me and phil. oh can she? yeah, because they're our cards. but i, i need them don't i? mm! go on then love! no you've been round now you can start buying your own. i could do couldn't i? no he hasn't! but i but don't forget she paid two thousand. she paid three thousand for them so for each one. yeah, it's your big idea ! i'll give you two thousand i'd be a bitch and sell them! each? no you cheeky sod! well why not? it's still saving you two thousand! no i said two thousand. not each! well i need the bloody money now! thank you! you will do, yeah, after this alimonies's over! now you gotta pay money haven't you? right so shel's down. so i've paid my bloody you cheeky yeah but sod! you haven't! no! you gotta throw your dice now, it's alimony. no she's done that! i've just done that! eight thousand. just changed the ten thousand. oh! yeah! i didn't see that. i'm sneaky! twelve! gosh i'll be able to well buy something. now i'm up here all on my own in the higher class! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten look down on you in the middle class! eleven. fucking hell! and you look up to me! you can guarantee i'll divorced straight away again now! i'll have one of them shel? to five hundred. i'll count my winnings so he'll probably win now he's got those cards there you go! as well! yeah, he's gotta get he's gotta get one of them i only need one more! as well. and then i've got to have my lunch. give you the yacht club. no, i'm gonna ten thousand. ten thousand. i take a chance in a minute on stock exchange and wack my lot on! i've only got to bloody si , i've only got about the same. yeah and i'll throw a ten! eight. yeah ! oh god! and then you'd need a credit card wouldn't you gary? five, six, seven eight i would that! welfare payments. fifty times roll of one dice. fifty times roll of one dice. you gotta pay that on it phil? no! oh yeah! erm welfare payments yeah, you gotta pay that. ten times roll of one dice! fifty times. fifty. that's what i said, fifty times roll of one dice! hundred and fifty. oh well that's not much is it! it is when you if, you're money's running down phil! one, two, three, four. one, two. can i have my ten times. my little note badge to go underneath on the oh! what, just there? just slip it under there my doll! for me please. there we go! is that it? okay! spiffing one what! two, three, four, five, six, seven, here we come! how many do i need, ten? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine . can't buy, you gotta go round twice. or once. once ten thank you very much! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. i'll have one of them. ooh! that's one of mine! oh shit! don't! he'll be up in, he'll fucking win it now! that's er, this one five hundred isn't it? that's er solarium. a solarium, yes. just fancied a solarium. never be able to afford one! well you've just bought one! seven. so all i need now is ten thousand pound! so you've just handed five, you can't afford a bloody solarium as well! have a go on the stock exchange shall we? gary, go on gary throw in! three. how many did grab it in a pile and chuck it on there! let's hope there's there! there should be a limit really! there should be a limit really ! that's three. i think there should be a limit don't you? one yeah, twenty thousand! two yeah! three thousand! go on ga ! well mike used to do it like that ah! and mike lost all his! wait there! can i have my yeah. oh not that! mike got a really big head didn't he? yep! he bul you didn't get a thousand then hope so! plus did you? mike got really oh no! big headed once about that. and thought he was gonna wi , how much you got there? how much you going for? three. three. three thousand. i've got eight thousand. i can build righto! ready boy? yep! get a two and he's on a winner with ! seven. seven. you're gaining another one. go for it! go again. ten. ten. ten. that'll do. plus two times. yeah, that'll do. so he put in three thousand. six thousand. six thousand back. shall i go? see what it'd have been shall i? can we just see what it'll be? yeah, go on then. woa! ! ooh! ooh hoo! i'd get quite a bit now well there you go! can't i? once i bought . and what have i gotta get? and you've gotta get, you got that membership as well. one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four . it's a self preservation society ! ooh gosh! i collect a thousand pounds! wow! oh is nice to be down there! not really ! i look down on you! eleven, one, two three, four, five look up at me! six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven. then it's you. because i'm in the high class and you're in the middle class! i only need my money now before i go oh! up. one, two, three, four taxes! pay taxes! one dice or two dice? both. both. both dices. hundred times. four. four hundred quid! oh that's alright. four thousand quid! right. one, two, three, four, five. divorce, pay alimony ! aargh! you bastard! he'll probably get double one now! doo , doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo ah,as well please! ha ! i know. seven. seven. seven back. now you can sell us our, our tickets back as well. ooh yeah! ooh yeah! i need a couple yes! of them! shit! ooh! mm! mm! mm! mm! mm! seven thousand pound! but you don't go pink one. how much do you say? i had to pay eight didn't i? square her a yellow one. i'm sure i had a pink one somewhere. mm! mm! mm! mm! mm! mm! mm! such a shame!gotta pay them it'll go round twenty for ten thousand haven't i? mm mm ! will you know what . that's mine. is that yours phil. yeah. mm mm mm and mm mm mm mm mm mm there you go ga mm mm mm mm mm . er excuse me! some of us might want to bid on it! mm, we can't bid on it we're not in the top group. ah no, ah ah! no. oh well i needed i'll have them a couple of them. di di di di di di no, we're in the higher! di di da he's in the, he was in the higher group . shit! i can't buy there! i was the only one up there! yeah, so how much do we five hundred. gotta give me my five hundred. is it five hundred? di di di di yeah. yeah. di . yeah, i don't like to say nothing. he pa , he paid us di di er di . oh yeah! three thousand. three thousand. that's right. five hundred and the no! three twenty innit? der di di di di da da da da er ! yeah. you get five plus, you have to pay five hundred and just dee di di da di di di di di di di di that's three thousand twenty. so, it's my go isn't it? yeah. one, two, three, four, five, one, two and oh! what's that? erm eight. okay. one, two, three, four, five six, seven. oh shit! eight. two hundred times. ooh! wish i'd just said seven now! bloody hell! that's what i like about you julie! ! oh ah! flipping hell! twelve hundred quid. it is twelve hundred this time! yeah. oh sod! i can go up once i get my can't i? ooh i need a couple of them tickets ju ! oh bloody hell! seven. nothing really matters right! in the same don't get anything for one. old way ! oh i'll bid for it! even go a walking in the who's got the green ones? same old oh i've got it! way ! what you whispering about? yeah alright! no bloody you two! oi! we wanna know what you're going on about! just change. what is it? aye! aye! what about me? don't i get a go? aye! no ! i'm in on this and all! what that is it? that's a card for this innit? yeah. how much is it? oh hundred and fifty! bid two hundred and fifty. i'll give you five hundred. six hundred. aye? three hundred, how much? i'll gi you five. well you and your fucking money bags, keep it! i'll give you six. one thousand! listen to him ! any higher? one thousand, one hundred. i'll gi you fifteen hundred cash on there! cash ! ah ah, i want that one anyway! no more phil? no oh! no, i can wait! that's not you go on then! anyway! that shel? that's gary's. no you get stuffed! i ain't paying that much here are! for it! here are! here are, here's your money! i'm losing all the money! and that's his own anyway! you wanna i'll a go. bid for it! and i don't, i'll get twenty er no we were how much do i get for this? we were bidding for this! yeah! so you me and phil can bid against that one. that's right. bidding against me and i don't want that ooh right! that's what i want. so what can you get? that's that. well you needed, yeah you needed that. i'll gi you a hundred and fifty. what does she get back? a hundred. right. give you two. four. ha ! five. five fifty. i mean , only cost you five hundred anyway! go on! alright then, go on then take it! alright. do you want the money or can i pay you later? oh bloody hell! i i'm buying my own race track! cos i'll move gary's up first. yeah. and i get that's right. we get for that one? erm oh that's another one we can bid on. oh yeah that's, yeah. that's another one oh right! you can have. what's this one? i i'll i'll buy that. what's this one we're bidding on? yeah you can bid three. what we bidding on now? the card. there's a black art gallery there. ee ee he shouldn't be able to buy them cos he's only just gone down! doesn't matter, i got the money! no it doesn't matter! still got the money! well you can all cos i've come from higher class to the low lower class. you can all bid for that one cos that's the black art's gallery and you all need it, so black art's gallery in the middle of the road well you put, should only get another one. i'll give you two hundred fifty. you can only get a hundred pounds for it. i'll give you two fifty. how much? i've just said two fifty! i'll give you three hundred! i'll let you two bid for it then! go on! three and half. four. well, he's got one though ain't he? he don't need it! no he hasn't got one. no he ain't got one. what's that one then? he's only got membership. four. what do we need well you need art gallery for? you need a membership and another do i need to go round before i can one of them or something. before i so i i'd i, i don't really want one! yeah. yeah. cos i buy one well you can buy one, yeah. well then you can have it for whatever it was for. four hundred and fifty. no i said four! oh yeah, four. try to, trying to up us! i've just added on race course, alright? give us them two back and we'll call it quits. so i'll put erm two grand on that. i ain't got hundred! oh well, ah, you owe we hundred! you bugger off! what have you got? er, i just give you it! five hundred innit? that's for that one! oh is it? no, that's what shel paid me for that! i just gave her that! look, this one! i'm just miles , bloody hell! miles away now! i'm missing out on something here aren't i? you owe me four, four hundred. no! no! just one. well change it in the bank mm. cos i haven't got it i'm afraid. this yeah, i got it in ones, so i'll give it you ones, alright. i've gone bloody back down to the bottom! i landed on those ones. ! there you go! your black , i was just having a go. i know but you only need six next time ! right, you want the race track how much you putting on? two. two thousand. what number. er, ten. ten. come on baby! seven. eight. eight have a go! not bad phil! put it in the bank! six. leave it in the bank! look at his fa ! i can't buy can i now? not yet, no not yet. no, not until i go round round once to the there? no, like me i've gotta get round there. back round to there innit? yep! and i've just about nearly round. shit! right. one, two, three, four, five, seven, eight, nine. no. you could afford to go up shel can't you? oh i haven't got any car , i've only got one card. oh i'm doing okay, aren't i? yes. one, two , three, four, five, six i can start buying now! if i get pissed off now i might just do! course you can't, i can't go up anyway! nine. not yet. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight lottery. lottery. right, this is the fun bit. this is where we all bang in! you choose how much you wanna put in. and we can all bang in with her! and the one who throws the highest wins it. out of this we can all , we could all bang in! well i'm a bit er but we gotta go the same as what you'd go. yeah, you gotta go the same yeah. as what i go. so if we go ? whatever you go i do i'm chucking off my so if i went like that you've gotta go the same? alright? no make it a thousand. you would! what a little de , yeah! cos i'm a bit skint on the thousands. i am as well darling! i know! but i'm hoping that i get the highest yeah. alright. right , so you go first phil! i'm i'm the same as you i'm the same darling! i'll make him feel we're all skint! seven. seven. look gary's not gone out. well that's fucking brilliant that is isn't it! that was devil! do you want me to go again? seven. seven. that's, that's two at seven. two at seven. they'll have to go again by the sounds of it. five! five! enough! it looks like the seven will have to go again! you, you silly for doing that darling! four. four. four. ? no, it don't count cos i didn't have that you cheat! oh well you oh! it's between these two whoever's gonna get this! someone's fixed these dice i tell you! oh ooh eleven! shit! you need twelve ! or eleven to draw. we'll take the card! go on, get in there ! your go my innit? that's my money back innit? my go? yeah. no, phil's go. no, phil's go. shit! cos i just landed on the bottom. he'll land on the divorce now! six. yeah. he has done ! i said that didn't i? you gotta sell phil! you gotta sell your properties! four four four hundred. four hundred. i'll pay i'll give you four hundred for that bloody hang on! hang on! let him pay his alimony. i'll five hundred for your card. well that's not right cos i've got that's wrong. five hundred. i don't need it cos i'm on the wrong one ! and she could of bought next time round anyway. i can buy now. what's that for? that's my hundred pound. oh that's your change. oh! gary's go. i can't buy yet though can i? so me and phil no, i can. are back round again! you sent that on to me! no, you're there! you're there! i've been round once ain't i? no! no. no. try again mate! oh i better count my money again eight. hadn't i? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. the stock exchange! here we go again! nothing really matters in the same old oh if i can get you this time! way ! see the ! that did it no. no way! mm. eight. eight. plus one thousand. so you get ten back. i get ten thousand back, what's that? roll again. fucking hell ! seven. you're gaining back now. go for it! that's if i get a fucking eleven i'm gonna kick them up there! yes! ha ha ! five. move for half of it. bastard! well that's no, should of done it to me cos i threw! i should of gained that. should of . i know ! not going greedy and offered a thousand shouldn't i? right, where am i? was a thousand last week. oh right! now it's ten p for twenty pounds in there ! one, two yeah. three, four, five, six. shall i get loads of them ? i'm only talking about twelve pounds! right ! i'm off back round again! seven ! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. i can't buy anything yet. all this bloody money! well more than what more than what you started with! look at his all sprawled out over there! yeah, that's what i said! two, three, four, five, six six . four, five. oh well! here we go! now it's phil's go. we gotta put it in whatever he puts in. oh shit ! how much you got there ga ? not a lot mate! i bet ! i'm down to a measly but i'm gonna now mate! two , three, four, five i've only got five thousand! he's a bloody swine he is! you! you bastard ! you've only got five thousand ! well not including my five hundred, so i've only got er six thousand you're not having no ! seven thousand seven tho , seven now i can't even stretch to ! so you got more than we got then! you got more than me! yeah, you ! i'll clear that. ga i knew he was gonna do that ! you got another five thousand cos you've just been the same as that. up haven't you? we got the same now! back back to square one again shel! he's got five thousand! how'd he get that ? are you being insolent ? aha. yeah, but i'll tell you what i'll laugh like hell if i get the iron! two, three yeah. four you don't care ju do you? you love it! five. no, i don't give a toss me! move on to but look! fives. no but you love it! eighty five thousand. eighty five! that's only a thousand! oh! one thousand! two thousand, two thousand five, two thousand six i aren't gonna bother! two thousand seven i've got ain't i? three thousand eight. yeah you got to! can you find just one? here are! two no, two thousand eight no you gotta find eight. right! here we go! yes i'll take that! eleven. plus five times. fifty thousand she's got! one , two, three, four, five! aha. ooh! what! what! three! i'm ready to go up now look! one, two three. i can't buy anything yet! well that's mine anyway look! ah, ha ha! budgy boy! four. one, two, three, four. i'll have a go on the stock exchange. there are ga ! cos you gotta throw. i know. he was ! he's getting a bit skint now ain't he? is it me to go? so when you'd gone down you so collect two hu two hundred when you're nearly there aren't you? i want seven. should have. oh yeah! no! you get your two hundred . your nearly there aren't you? i've got that! i'm only in the middle though. oh yes! four thousand. can't go up yet. that's a shame! four thousand? go on then ga ! yeah, has to go up to no. five thousand go on then ga ! seven seven. regain investment. i would think, well i don't. go on ! four. four. well that's everything what i done! christ ! you lose a a thousand don't you? only three quarters. oh! three quarters so they leave leave so you leave a thousand. yep! ha ha ha! what what what ! that's everything that i done didn't i? sorry mate! no here! lose three quarters of investment. so you're only left with a thousand so twelve. ooh! cor!! one, two, three, four, five, six seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. can i have my er fucking need it! woa! mm! five hundred pound! yes. eleven. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten terrible innit really! eleven. well i can buy but that's mine anyway! eight. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven ooh! just missed it phil! shaky mate weren't it! ten. i got one! oh . yo you've got one already ga . yes. nearly a thousand already. what number? on number eight. no, seven. one, two how much do i need? three, four, five, six, seven. how much do i need to go up again? er oh i've forgotten now! erm, ten thousand from there to the top. er er we've had one thousand. which is one of these four. i'm going up! next what? go. yeah, he's got his money ain't he? well stick yourself in the highest class. a and why do you think i haven't said anything cos he could of gone up! oh no, he's gotta pass middle. he's gotta get passed oh you've gotta pass there. that's why i'm not going up innit? yeah. i've been round once haven't i? yeah. yeah. yeah. yeah but you gotta pass mine. that's right! that's why i say i'm going up next go. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. i'll have one of them! yeah. stick that up your jumper ! well i cos it's only hundred pound innit? i can afford one of them ga . oh very funny darling! right, that's one of mine on the way! doesn't see you! doesn't see you! five. means it doesn't suit you! one, two, three okay? four, five. oh! that's gary. mm. one, two, three. i'm on the race track. cos i'm going up see what happens. do i go on the racetrack six, no! or not? you carry on. you just go straight up. you can have a go on the racetrack. aye! i if that was the case my twelve should have carried on. when i was down no. on that then i sa , i said i was going anyway. i know. but i was on the race, i was going on the race track. do i go on the race track or do i go straight up? yeah, his his number's on the dice happen to leave him so he was on the race track, so it's up to him now. yeah but mine left me u down the bottom no, but you somewhere on the stock yeah but that was you exchange or something like that. no it wasn't stock exchange! no, you were on that. on there. so he can have a go on the race track or he don't have to bother if he don't want to. he can just go straight up. but i can go straight up there anyway! yeah. but me like i am being a greedy bastard i didn't! it's making money me money so you can't go up! i'll go for race track. mm. aha. what number you going on? how can i rig these dice? no cheating shelly! no ! ooh! ooh! bloody hell! you still waiting this to go up haven't you? gonna carry on? or i haven't said a number yet! ain't said a number yet. it's turn innit? oh no! you do that one then don't you? why's that? i've got to bloody ! go down further out than that don't get any money! no, two for the money as well! eight. five. nine. nine. bastard! mm mm. eight. yeah! ho ooh! ten to one. oh! which is? another two of that one. another two of them will do me then. no! two to one. just one more! no! two to one! no, you get your back. i get my two plus my, my investment back. yes. i'm on high class anyway. so i'm selling these in a minute shel. oh! anybody on middle class wanna buy them. who's on middle class? no. i am. oh! well shel do you wanna buy them? you got one more in the oh shit! one for my own anyway cos i've gotta give you back hundred pound for that one five hundred! hundred! no! hundred! it's my own. oh is it? mhm. oh! what about the yacht club. yours, i'll have, ooh you a yacht club and a black burger. mm. a nig-nog! um will i get in the er if i sell them back? you don't get nothing for that. i'll give you fifty quid for that one. and a hundred for the other one you get back. no i wouldn't get more than if i give you two hundred for the both of them together. no! two hundred for that one. can't i no , you don't get, you don't get anything for the membership! well put that one back then. can't i buy it off you? nope! oh you rotten thing! and put that one back as well! so he gets bloody yeah, she's gotta get one membership . told you you could of done it to him after you let him buy them last time! i was kind to you last time! right! yeah, but i'm up now i don't want you to come up yet do i? one, two, three, four, five, six. welfare payments times the if you come up you've won haven't you? roll of one dice. yeah! near enough. well then! oh! she's got fifty pound! she's got more money than you mate! i know. but if she comes up she's won ain't she? might sell it back to you. yeah, but she's gotta go up to win ain't she? and if i let her out i'm stupid aren't i? she's won the fucking game! two. i'll have one of those. black art's you sure? gallery. i'll have one of the black art's gallery. god! sorry! die quietly! stock exchange again! gary! you gonna do better for me this time ga ? apart from one of the black art's course i will mate! course i will! then i only need who's on stock exchange? then. ta. two thousand back. we want one. one what? just get it ! stop that out there! is that seven? seven. get your . no, ten we want. you sure? that'll do me! ten. ten. that'll do me! plus two times. yep! plus my four thousand. four thousand. give us one of them back then. right. one, two, three, four, five one, two, three. lovely! i love it! throw the dice. serves you right! a hundred times!! i said to mysel , i said to myself i'm not going on that one i'll and now it's that! then you got a sa a ah you went and got i had a ! nine thousand! i had a fucking policeman anyway didn't i! i don't want to go up anyway! bastard! just got rid of all your cards ! oh screw you! no, fucking pissing game oh i'll buy one of them! oh i'll get my thousands. you been round once? i've been round a couple times thank you been up there ages! get another tape out in a minute ju ! aye? erm get another tape out in a minute! six hundred. pay six hundred for it. and i'll typical innit! go up jus to get banged back down again ! eight. all i need now is another card. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. i've only sold one of these well i want the bloody cards at the moment! membership or something. you going for that card are you? one, two , three. i'll buy that one. who's got green? that's alright, i'll buy that one then. ooh microwave oven ! i'm not buying e , anyone else's! you tight sod ! no! i'm not thanks mate! why not? i helped you two by giving you two thousand of mine. no, no one seven. one, two, three no one helped me! four, five, six you didn't help me! i did! you didn't help me when you were lovely! i love it! four hundred times is the amount of dice. four hundred. four hundred. ding, ding ding ding ding. and you gotta go all the way round the board! , one, two, three, four, five. shit! seven. five hundred times yeah but he can't gi , so that means you can't go up cos you haven't got a chance to buy one. ten. one, two why? three, four, five, six, seven eight, nine not before you get to there! ten. you need to have one more to get, buy one and then go up. oh i don't need one of them cos i've got my i've got my two er things, i just need er i only wanted a couple of laps up round there membership and all. i wouldn't give a shit then! i wouldn't mind a couple! how near am i now? eight. very close! two, three, four, five, six, seven three, four, five, six, seven eight. eight.! phil, . ooh! we, can we do it! i'll give it another grand on th eights. oh wow! right? on eights? no, wait there! you want one or two to one. i'll have go on at nines alright? mhm. you should of gone eight! seven. seven. eight. oh yeah, eight! that's on eight. seven. look at that! and you were saying about don't do you any favours, you didn't do me any when you stuck bloody five hundred on the fucking lottery! five thousand! can't do anything with it! five thousand! i'm i'm divorced . five thousand phil, and that's all i had left! no, i made sure you had eight thousand! seven, eight, nine, ten. oh! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven yeah eight times . oh god we're all back down on the bloody board now ! come on then! you got the lottery again. oh fucking nine hundred quid! doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo . see you down the bottom shel! doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo ! see you down the bottom shel! and you said you could play most four. games with him on nights. go four. you can keep hold of them can't you? don't need that cos i got my two no. things on you gotta sell these ones now. no you haven't! yeah i've gotta get rid of them cos then we're yeah. bidding the bottom of that. one, two, three , four, five, six right. seven, eight, nine, ten. i thought you keep hold of that ju ? so you owe me a hundred pound. i thought you could keep hold of that? eleven. no! have i gotta give you money? he's up to the middle class! you have, yeah actually. one, two,three, four five have a drag for the next hour! one , two racetrack. three, five! race , racetrack. four! four! five ! and racetrack. racetrack. i had eleven. yes? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. yeah. he's up then. so you're selling yours phil? yes. anyone wanna buy one? no because i've got . what are they lower class? yeah! lower class ! lower class. i'm in the lower class. how much? i'll give you fifty! i'll gi you hundred. i'll give you hundred and fifty. two hundred. keep it ! i don't need another race. two hundred so er no, two hundred and fifty! i want a two hundred and fifty. you can have it then! we've all gotta go round once yet anyway! mm. so have i! your go ga ! eight. one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three. racetrack. racetrack. racetrack. just ten pounds. your money must be going quick! i've still got ooh! eighty thousand there. he's putting ten thousand on the racetrack! on racetrack! eight. no i had eight. seven. eight it is! he goes twel seventy thousand. back? he's, he's got the same amount as me now. oh bloody hell! three fifty down there. one, two, three gary! , five, six, seven. ten thousand commission. right, my go is it? is that thunder? mm. mm. it might be them downstairs. oh god! where am i? you gotta go round yet. ten. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. shame i won on that lottery gary! i could put a couple of these in! eight. mm. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. ! ah! i want one of them shel! night school diploma. that's all i want. fifty pounds innit? yep. diploma is that one is it? and how much d'you need? five thousand? five thousand to get it. i'm going up next time. when you get round to there. oh you gotta back past yet. yeah. oh yes, i know. i'll buy you card darling! what's that , eleven? i ain't got there yet gary! i've just gone eleven past the bloody thing! yeah. do you want er diploma? i can't buy it i haven't got been round. no he's oh no! go round once ain't he? twelve. one, two, three, four, can i have my money? five, six,seven, eight, nine , ten, eleven, twelve. what's that one? somebody's got a lot of hundreds one of mine! yeah i'll no you can't buy it! you haven't been round yet. well let's see if i've got some here. somebody's gotta change up some hundreds. yeah , i've got some hundreds, here are. oh yeah! i think we've got some! two , three, four i've only got two! five, six, seven going. eight, nine, i'll have, i'll have ten. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven i'll have ten thousand. eight, nine, ten. i'm on the stock exchange. oh i can't, i've only got four! i'll have ten thousand. i've got five. he's got, they've got loads! a thousand! oh! well, sorry! yeah. i'm not that stupid ! one, two aren't you ? three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. i'll have another five then. five thousand. five thousand. no wonder i've only got a four! and you've got them all gary! right, i've gotta collect two trying to keep mine quiet! hundred for going round yeah. there, i'll put that straight in on the sto no i won't! i'll put it's me i ain't got enough! why do you want a sub here? i was going ten thousand on the stock exchange. ju ? mm? look at this! shel,. bloody awful in't it? mm mm! five. two! now i'm on the stock e keep a low one please babe. oh! eight. you idiot! plus one half. so i get a pink one and that back. that's not as bad. it's losing the lot ! oh what a shame! eight. what d'you mean what a shame? one, two , three, four, five, six, seven, eight. ooh, here we go again! yeah. i reckon we should put a halt on this bloody hundred thousands don't you? twenty thousand roll of both dice for the football winnings! ooh! ooh! these ten thousands. what's that? you land one twenty hundred and ten pounds. no, twenty times! twenty times what twenty? eleven. two hundred and twenty. two hundred and twenty. oh yes, so it is! there are ga . for me weren't it? mm mm. won't you? mm! that's not bad. i don't mind. if i hadn't have got that twenty thousand seven. i would have been right down! seven. one, two, three, four well fifteen thousand. five, six seven. i'll buy it! no, don't buy that one! that's no buy it for a thousand or whatever. four. where am i? one, two, three, four. what's that? finger! finger ! i can't buy it! seven hundred pound. well what d'you mean you can't buy it ! you haven't been round once yet! shit! nor have you. no, i was only one away from the wedding. moor view? that's in erm i've heard of moor view, that's in chuddley innit, moor view? nine. one, two, three, four, five innit? six, seven, eight, there's a moorland view nine. in buckland oh shit! i need buy a new, new horse. no, there's moor view in chuddley and it's ten times roll of one dice. i've gotta pay that have i? yep! mm. i would have thought so darling. they're not gonna pay you! one! what's on that? cos have you got a ? where's the that's mine! who's got the controls? me! it don't matter about the nine. telly. well turn it off then! one, two, three, four, five wasting more electric! six, seven, eight d'you want it off? mm. nine. credit due ooh it's barbara streisand! you in't got any credit! shit hang on! it's our barbara! you can't turn it up gary! i'll tell you to fucking ! it's our barbara! i'm telling you to fu you can switch that lamp up if you want. what's this one? is this here? that's just a blank one. right then.. don't need that on. that's better innit? ooh shit! ooh! go on then, your go ga ! that must sound disgusting! turn the light off. bang! your go ga ! it's ! look at that! one, two, three. oh ! you wanna do a porno one for them ! ah yes, i'm coming! i'm coming! i'm coming! ah! you got it baby ! go on . oh! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. ooh i've gone all hot and sweaty! gone all hot and sweaty! five. one, two, three, four, five. ooh! oh i don't need anything! i'm going to get round to there! four. one, two, three, four. football winnings. hundred times roll of dice. both dice. you son of a hundred times. one thousand two hundred. yep! hundred and twenty. five. one, two, three, four, five. can i have oh i'll buy that one myself. buy that one boyos! can't afford it? can't afford it. don't know if i can afford it. thank you. oh i just might be able to afford that. ooh! i'll have another go on the stock exchange. ooh! julie! oh yeah it is innit? no you were showing on the bottom of me aren't you? ooh! ooh! ooh! ten. i'll keep that. that and two times. plus two times. ooh bugger me! bugger me! my money's gone right up! no i think i got ten thousand there ain't i? six. one, two, three, four, five, six. i've already passed that. to the bloody end! have you? mm mm. one, two, three, four well i had seven, you only had four. five, six, seven five. seven, eight, nine, ten. one , two, three, four. ten thousand? i'm already past that. i'm over it! i'm over it! yeah, and me. i'll buy that one. i mean, that's a hundred thousand! a hundred and fifteen. aha, i'm over the hundred thousand i mean. oh are you? yeah. i'll buy that one, who's got that one? me! me! three thousand. three hundred. no five hundred. five hundred. a , one, two ooh it's the necklace again! we just got rid right. of one them! did i lose one? did i four. lose one? no. one, two five. three, four five, five, six, seven eight, nine, eight. well at least i got nine, eight. past that . eight. i've only, i've only got eight till the next time though! i've miscounted now! did i lose one somewhere along the way? go on your go! jus , yeah i did i lost one on something didn't i? on one of the . tha on the er racetrack. yeah, then you won again didn't you? did i? six. browns i don't really wanna buy that do i? four. one, two, three, four. . i'm gonna have to change up big money! some of these hundreds. seven. one, two, three, four, five, six. one, two, three, four, five seven. ooh! on the stocks stock exchange! but i'm going up anyway next time. no. no. see the bottom of the stock exchange is still yeah! going up! ah yeah, but we used to have three thousand have to go up with. yeah! ah! ah! no, five thousand! five, yep! so if i put, oh no it's only throwing it innit? no what? five thousand phil. yeah, you wanted twenty thousand didn't you? eight. eight. invest plus one half. no, go on. just investment. seven. seven less. go on. regain investment. and regain investment oh free ! free. total except ten. so the ten pounds you get back innit? yep! yeah. yeah, i still got er said to you regain investment! and now you're up anyway in't you? we got some stuff to . yeah, she's going up. yes i got some oh right! i need some stuff. right! oh yes ga ! oh well gary can't have the brown one cos that's his anyway. no, so right, so yo you can can't you? so he could, you could only get twenty phil, so i'll give you thirty. yeah, go on then! you sell right! i would have chucked more than that off,loads of it! alright i'll give you a hundred! there you go! that's how much you would have fucking paid me anyway! right! what do you, you can have either of these two. i'll have both of them, i'll give you a shel only needs the diploma. i'll gi you five thousand on both. no i won't! five thousand! a thousand, i'll gi you a thousand for them both. shel gonna i paid a how much do you thousand just for the diploma! so how much for the diploma? aye? you don't want them up in the top the next group do i want with us do you? do i need, i need a you don't want them in the next group with us do you? country club don't i, to go up? well just give the diploma back to . will the diploma take me up if i had them two? if you bought both of them, yeah. yes. that'll take you up next time round. you don't want that do you? i'm giving a thousand they got all the money! just for that! they got all the money! well i'll give you two for both. that's right. now,. what? put them in the bank. fair enough! you gotta get on them haven't you? so how much d'you get back? twenty innit? only twenty. right! no! ah! i'll remember that! well that's stupid! i wouldn't do what? it like that! you did to me! that was , i was, i was in the money! yeah, you said phil said that you two have got all the money! she sa , she needs some money doesn't she? four. yeah , but you need the money! mm. who's got the red ones? over two grand! you jus , just who's got the red ones? well you made plus hundred those ? and twenty! what d'you want? okay? i'll buy that one off you. no wonder i fucking got no money no, you make them the same as us! in the bank! ooh a five hundred one! you all chucking it away like that! there you go! i'll have one of them anyway, country club. fifty pounds! so shove it where the ! there are see , you've landed on it now! have i got a fifty pound? it's one of them big ones, i haven't seen one of them before! first one of them i've seen! i didn't know we had them! i've been seeing we started off with them! i've been seeing these funny yellow ones! i don't know what they are! go up and go down! the ten thousands we haven't even seen yet! they go and go down! they keep going then going down ! well they're fucking doing well oh well! aren't they? oh shit! how can you cos they ain't got it? fucking ridiculous! you got,ha , what have they got? i got ten thousand. you can only go what they've got. mm. probably have actually. no you don't. i go five thousand. right. cos they can go that actually. and you gotta go in like julie ! it's only cos the . oh my god! i'm not gonna do, i'm not i'm not going in. you don't have to go in do you? yes no. you do. no you don't! oh don't you? you don't, no. don't you? but i'm gonna cos i'm i'm like that. you go two fives? and if you don't , i'll i'll cry! you just take one of them out. i need my to go up in a minute. okay. so are you going for it or not? yeah. i've still got five, six, seven no , you've gotta go in it eight. you gotta go in it! everybody's gotta do it in the long run. i've still got ten thousand. no they haven't ! haven't they? but i've only just gone up anyway. you're chickening out are? alright then i'll i'll go up. so who's in it? everybody. all of us. all of us? eight. one nice ! sh! he'll take won't he the next time ? five. six. oh i'm winning so far! don't let her win ju ! make it a nine. shit! told you ju ! eight two! anyone wanna buy a crystal thing? who the hell is it? no! you can have it. a crystal ! she's not been round once. eleven. one, two, ah! three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven. d'you know what's nice? toast dipped in tea! yeah. i gotta go all the way round yet. oh god! toast, yeah, in tea it's quite nice. oh toast dipped in tea, yeah! the only trouble is you get all four. butter floating on the top of you cup of tea ! one, two, three , four. take, and a thousand pound. what's that one? what's a ? never mind one of them! i don't need another one of them! mm. you what? vagina! yeah, something like that, yeah ! two. that's a good start love! i'll have that one! cos i need one of them to go up. hundred pound. do i want one of them? do i? yep! have i got hundred pound? but you still gotta pay up julie's coming on alright now aren't you? you jammy sod! well not really. well you got a couple of yellow ones now! no, one! one. oh and the be one, two, three pink. quite a few pink. twenty times roll of both dice. two! that's thirty thousand that's all! eight. eight. hundred and si , three hundred and sixty. you still got more than me! oh yeah! one sixty . nine. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. ain't it gone quiet! she daren't buy it you see! right. i've had no money yet! oh you want money do you? have i been round once? oh! no, you're just coming up to your first round. i i ain't been round yet. i thought i had already. well you must have been round because you've yeah. one. how have you been round. i just missed that wedding. no he in't but no. but do i need to go round. yeah i do don't i? no, cos i bought them off erm somebody just go another yeah you just bought off me though! one on. yeah. so i gotta give you the hundred back, you gotta give me five back. that's right! ha ha ha ! cos i can't buy it can i? just missed the wedding by one! i've been round already haven't i? no idea! can i have my hundred please? yeah. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight nine! you got a hundred on both of those? oh you're next to me now cos that's one of mine ga ! you need that. d'you want it? he's gotta go round yet! haven't been round have i? oh you haven't been round! i haven't been round so i can't have it! they just took it back off me! one, two, three, four, five , six, seven, eight. ooh! here we go! here we go! here we go ! here we go! just you dare! now! keep them low babe! oh bloody hell! no ! and again babe! keep them low! that's two fours. when you get a low one and you get seven. seven. regain investment. phooey! whoa! shaky, shaky shelley! two, three, four, five, six. i can't buy anything yet that's why i've gone past . seven. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. and he's on the racetrack! oh god! i've gotta go all the way round to get a diploma and all the way round there! and he's doing us here boy! the girl ! on the te no! they stru , he does himself. oh yeah! what number? a number nine! nine. come on baby! eight. eight. eight. you should of gone for eight phil ! what's he gone for? nine. nine ! and somebody's on who's awake? probably vicki twelve. fell down . look at that! it's my twelve! where's the stuff then? put it in, put in th . sounds like vicki. . don't touch it ! what are you two doing? can't do anything with that going can we? what are you stuffing in your, in your ? you . what? take your slipper off! i said we can't do anything with that. it's on tape innit? what we're doing ! yeah, you're don't have to talk to make the money! i know how many things i've he said we sho fucking got! he said she didn't realise the tape was on ! who is it? sh! don't . who was it, vicki? yeah. i don't think so . it's okay. put that back cos that's mine! excuse me! no che , i'm gonna stay in here with him while so yeah. he don't fucking cheat! that's the bags. go to the toilet one at a time! must be . see i'm not cheating! i'm next in the toilet! is she alright? who? julie in there? yeah. what toilet? not in the loo! no, she's no, right. gone to see vicki! just going to the toilet alright? yeah, i know you are ! ! you can go up to the ! don't cheat shelly! give diplomas don't worry ! just under don't cheat! the table for a minute ! that's cheating! julie. how many for a divorce? is she asleep? what did she do, fall out of bed ? dreaming? well she'd got all her . watch them ju ! they're cheating these two! if you and philip were gonna cheat then you'd ! philip went philip said, shall i nick a ten thousand? didn't realise the tape was on! she's got one of her cuddly toys! i don't know which one. i give her teddy oh! bear. did you? well that's what it is then. oh! and it was on the floor but she was lying on the bottle. lying on her bottle. i didn't take her so bottle! i did, i took her bottle back to her. oh course you did! she asked me to get her pass me five thousand! bottle ! oh god! there no toilet roll down here! oh my god! you been on the shit again! no! no splashing the pan! i don't know wanna re-coat it! it was re-coated last week! pebble-dashed ! oh yeah! len lend us one. just finish this. eight. six. can you now what . can you pop down with one box tomorrow or saturday? what for? beryl's collecting up some toilet rolls from the up st meringer for two p. i've got two. i'll phone you on monday if you want? from work. he won't be coming till tuesday. yeah alright. if you want. yeah. i say, i wouldn't realise you see. can you get us some toilet rolls i put the last one in the bathroom or summit. well he said yesterday had we, we'd got enough and i thought we had. mhm. but there's only two under there. i shall use kitchen roll till he comes around then. well it's vicki innit! every time i go for a wee i en she comes with me and pulls a load off to bloody blow her nose! who's go is it? mine innit? yeah. everybody ready? mm mm. oh shit! shut the kitchen light out? turn the se , turn the bloody kitchen do you want the kitchen light on or not? turn it off. shut the kitchen light off ! i put her on her back and she's gone back to sleep. so how much were they at the swan's then? nothing. nothing! i had to a man with the stick earlier. what's that? yeah! oh i dunno what he's got in there! what's that? collect hundred pound go in last night. no! there's nine at bingo. which one's collected hundred pound on granddad's birthday? grandma's fu , grandmother's funeral! inherit two hundred pound. oh! one, two, three, four shall i give him the hundred? is that my hundred shel is it? yeah. didn't see you put it there. well i did ! cos you're winning! ah, i can buy now! two, three, four, five, six. ooh! oh! yes! yeah, i fancy that a lot really don't i? is that no, i only go five thousand. oh my coffee's, coffee's gone cold now! ooh god! six , sixty. six, no. ha hoo hoo! five thousand! ooh! four. four. four. no! no! oh no, the other. eight. eight. that'll do! plus one half. not my go anyway! give it back ! one, two, three, four, five, six hundred times roll of both dice ! about hundred thousand! no! don't wind him up ah! ! four. four. that's mine anyway! say no to me! i'm round now i can buy can't i? for me. hundred. been round haven't i? i give you a hundred back yeah. and the other one's i can buy now. yeah, hang on a minute! no, you're only there! no, i've been round once ain't yeah. i know? so i can yeah. make that . hang on! no, it's when you pass there! haven't i been round yet? i've been round! no ! i can't, i can buy can't i? i it says on the bottom of this phil! oh yeah, you were up here weren't you? can i buy it or not? no, i am! yeah. what? er i'll take it! erm yeah but you're not in the middle! you're not in the middle ! ah! near the . i'm in the middle now. yeah, so i can buy that off him. oh yes! yeah but i'm on my way up there in a minute hopefully ! oh he's in middle class isn't he? yes! i can buy that off him if i yeah i know ! want to. er i thought if you went up and yo and yo we , you went back down you could keep your higher class. no. no. you have to sell them all off. er or how much are they, five hundred? that's a bit of cheating! how much is the value of this? well it was a hundred what one is it? give him two hundred of yours! cash. can i? yeah. yeah , but you can sell it me, see. cos she's in middle class. cos i'm in the oh! i've just had my own, own back. erm i'll give you hundred and fifty, no higher! how much you'd paid again was it? oh i paid you alimony paid any ! paid your alimony haven't you? this one phil? well i haven't you? ain't got nuffink! you paid your alimony? yeah. too right! i think it's safer to be on the bottom. six. well you can't go anywhere can six. you? six. time to start buying! one, two, three, four, five, six. on there. got a greeny, with a a six. six browny! one, two , three, four, five, six. ooh i'll have one of them! cos i can buy now. that's your diploma innit? yeah! and a , i need one. i need all of, all of them at the moment. seven. one, two, three , four, five, six, seven. i could buy anyway shel! i've why? been round once. i've had hundred. well you bought that one, they were selling them off. mm. oh! ah! i'll try again. now you can buy. can't he? stock exchange. mm. well come on make up your mind! are you trying to frighten me? no yo been elevens every time ! ooh! ooh!! six. lose that lose that quarter. now go on! eight. investment plus a half. yeah. mm! seven. well we took the next yeah. gonna be. around that stuff . same again. nine. oh yeah, nine! investment plus equal amount. plus equal amount. oh well! my god! oh shit! i've gone past it again! five, six oh five hundred. right. need that just at the minute. oh god only just! innit? one, two, three, four, five, ooh six! ooh, here we go! julie's on the stock exchange! oh no! eighty five. i don't like him sat there! erm i was on winning to don't i? i know! i tell you what this game's doing quite well! started about quarter three to nine didn't we? three thousand been going an hour. i'm not having that! well i'll soon tell you. six. no, go on. tape's still going again. back we go! looks like forty five minutes that'll do, nine. on one e , one side of tape haven't we? so we haven't been playing long no, not yet have we? three thousand. right, is that all you get. yeah i only put in for three thousand, he got me a nine. yeah. eight. , one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. d'you want some more wine? phillip, six. no. no. d'you want one of them? can't buy it! i haven't been round once. he ain't been round once. i haven't got any it's not funny anyway! it's fucking hilarious ! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. i'll have that! rose's clothes ooh! or whatever it is! there are! hundred pound! a latest style suit! and i'm going up next go! i can't say it yet can i? yeah i can. you haven't got , you haven't got a diploma yet. oh yes you have! yes i have! yes i have! yeah you got enough. shut your face! shit! you gotta get round to there gary! yeah, but i can say it now. yeah. yeah. so when i'm there i can go up straight away. ah, ha ha! i'm rosie! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight! yes! rosie and ju , rosie and jim ! i'm going up next time! how much is that? rosie and jim go round oh, fifty pounds ! . rosie and jim oh! oh it's a rosie and jim! oh i know! you aught to be here on bloody monday with vicki! dee dee dee, dee dee oh it's my go innit? d'you watch it? no i don't watch rosie and jim? those things ! ah ah ah ! one, two, oh shit! i just like pingu. d'you used to watch pingu? you watch this look! a little penguin ! hundred times roll why what's that on that? of both dice. four. four four hundred. hundred. where's the name ? bumps on at the moment innit? one, two is it? three, four doo doo ! five, six, seven, eight oh how does the music go on bump? nine, ten. bump, bump, bump, bump . oh he's up! society weddings. he's in the high society ! no! no! no! i'm in the low cheeky shit! i'm in there again you ain't got nothing to sell have you phil? no. seven. one, two, three, four i've gotta five, six, seven. oh yeah! this is the self preservation society ! he's ain't half in't he? ooh nine! yeah. plus equal plus equal amount. yeah go on then. oh bollocks! we're running out of these now! just see what it have been shel. let's just see what it have been. no, i ain't even got you've got them all! shel just do whatever! oh eleven! ooh! god! investment plus five times. ooh ! actually the first one isn't bad. should have gone for two shouldn't i? go for number two usually. eleven times investment. five times the other investment. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. ooh racetrack! ooh racetrack! greed did get you a bit more! when you run out of money you know the one who's got the most when you run out of money yeah, a hundred thousand you go down to the bo , what's left ten thousand. ten thousand i'm getting carried away! ten thousand then you get rid of all the yeah, but there can't be there can't be enough o , enough erm te ten thousands and this has to go right up to the top. that's right. no! so what we used to do, when we played with michael you count it up. and ken we used to write it down on a bit of paper who had what and who owed what and i'll change that for a pink one. and i'll watch her , watch her ju ! one! two! three! four! five! what's this for? racetrack. oh! oh right! now i'll go for number eleven. ooh ooh! ten! ah! bye bye money! bye bye money ! oh shit! oh balls! bye bye money doo doo doo doo i'm on the bloody black one ! cla one of these bugger's wrong innit? nine. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. oh i'll have one of them. see, she's sneaking that if you oh i did look. five hundred pound. did you get your two hundred? no, you didn't give me my hu , no neither did i then! whatever it is! nor did i! you haven't passed it yet! yeah! i went passed once, i got to wedding so i oh yeah! must have. yeah. fucking hell! dishing out the money now aren't i? i'll have one of the green ones shel? ooh, one of mine? mm. no, green one. how much are they? five hundred. there you go! ooh! a lovely video machine! it's terrible being oh lovely! i'm gonna leave those on. yeah. yeah, bloody disgusting innit! well i got about ten thousand. julie's got a few of them yellow ones now! i haven't! only got one. oh, how the eight. hell did you get that one? on that er oh yeah! mm. bloody lottery. i've won twice ain't i? six mm mm mm. i don't think anybody's brought a brown one! one. seven. seven. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. oh shit! what's that, taxes on what? pay ten ten times times roll of both dice. that'll do me! seventy, seventy pound. well if you can't them to lose their money . two, three, four ,fi oh gee! didn't want a blue one! is that it shel? yeah. make sure it's all there! i will ! don't wanna do you is that out of anything do you ga ? your go shel. no. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. a night at bingo, ooh er missus! ooh! promise that'll be this tuesday. eight. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. oh shit! fifty times roll of one dice! fives five fives are twenty five, two thousand two hundred an five. two hundred and fifty! two hundred and fifty! two hundred and fifty. oh! still not there shel! nice try phil! aye? ten still not there. three, four, who bought seven. mine? ten off you. one, two, three there you go. four, five, six. five. six, seven. oh i might be with my change. a thousand shel. then that's going the bank. shel? a thousand! give us a chance ! i might be with my change. how many is it? and i'll had three hundred on i got ten there. the racecourse. well i might be with my cha on an eight. okay? he's going yeah, that's it. three hundred on the race track for an eight. seven. seven. ooh that's it! thirty seven. i was watching! what was, what was that about twe no,tha thrown that one. dee dee dee dee! seven. that's two sevens phil. cor! bloody hell! that one's forty, twenty and twenty one! unlucky ! well he's got eight so many other times so i thought i'd try it! six. ! one, two, three, four, five, six. when you pass i was going up anyway, i said yeah. didn't i? so am i. you gotta get there yet ga ! yeah, that'll do me! one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, it's that. oh well that can go on the straight on the right, so i gotta be, er ah, i can't come off can i? no. so so you owe me? can't we? twenty quid and the bank owes me twenty quid. five. do i collect my thousand this time? one, two, three of course. four, yes! and i'm on the racetrack! straight on? yep! that'll do! we'll we'll stick with that! go on then. stand up. aye? seven. i know how many's there! i'm ! yeah. you keep saying! i'm a . ten. i just said you were losing up there. pi picking up a one. so that's six. six thousand. six thousand shel. well done ju ! i wouldn't nick them! don't look like that! aye, we didn't see that! three. eight. he did. no we didn't, i was watching you. one, two, three oh yeah? four, five, six seven, eight. phil would soon tell me. i've go i've gotta watch you jammy sod he's up in high class! he's not , he's not over any the top ju ! you bastard! you sod off ! got anything to sell? nope! one, two, three, four, five, six you've haven't got any, hardly got any money ! one, two, three. i was going up weren't i? yeah. sh! don't matter. so i gotta give these back now ain't i? i don't know how you're gonna julie's gotta pay four hundred and phil's gotta julie's gotta give me pay for one. a hundred how much? twenty. twenty. and phi , phil's gotta give me a hundred. twenty . and nobody's gonna give me nothing for that are they? alright. thank you very much. i'll get it phil! don't worry! oh you little bastard! it's alright mate! seven. don't worry about it! shit! plenty of time! plenty of time! julie's putting nothing in! one, two oh no! three, four, five, seven, oh ! it's fucking got up there now sell off all my ! seven hundred. i think shel's got down to the beginning again! you'll be back down there in a minute! i bloody will! i'm still down he here at the moment! he he he will be. you'll get a seven! oh bloody hell, eleven! one, two, three, four, five six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven. er, oh i'll have one of them! oh good! five hundred, that's alright. thank you. darling! there you go! land on one mine. of mine for a change! oh how about bloody you never land on any of mine! i'm skint! you know yeah. never used to go up. i'm going up next time. six. when i get past there. but, yeah. right phil! we should still be up! we should have won by now! phil you'll be in the higher class. oh i can see that! one, two, three, four , five, six,one, two that one? yeah, i'm just gonna keep going till i land on the wedding. one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. it was me that went down first weren't it? go back down. yeah ! eight. no, i went from there ! to there to fucking there! yeah, well that don't make, that don't make any difference cos i'm going up your not! and i'm selling these off then! i was up there , i was looking forward to my first ten thousand, i went from there to there, to fucking gary! there! it's only gary innit? what? it's only gary that wants these. i've got all what? these three. all three? then i'll have the lot! right! now then, i'd get two hundred for them mm. i wouldn't get anything for that. mm. so you can have the whole lot for four hundred. you got a deal! cos i love you! you bloody creep ! getting him up there quick! right? yeah, he can go up here to fucking win that! give me one , give me hundred back! give me hundred back! oh yeah! so he can! give me hundred back! i ain't got hundred! mi , i've only got five hundreds. i'll let you off then! i'll gi you the five hundred pound. i owe you hundred then. yeah , cos all he needs to buy is two of them and he's won! i'm going up next go. he'll probably go straight back down! thanks a bunch! he's still gotta go all the way round the next one. yep! well it don't matter anyway! ten thousand. but i'm just letting everybody know i'm going u , i'm going up next time, alright? we'll probably find out none of this have come out yeah what does she want? another one oh what a shame bye bye money, put it in the bank yes it's only five to one , ooh we haven't got five of these left i don't think, one, two, three, four, five, ooh and there j=just in a minute you'll ooh have to get me that big yellow i've got fifteen if i got ten before i get to the top i've won haven't i? because i'm there and you're not, your money doesn't count then well if everybody wants to, i'll, i'll give everybody one of these and i'll go up to the top wait till i get it it's a good try innit? cor, nine in't that right? is that right i've won? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine not that i'm being nasty not the first time round well that's right innit? six is that right or wrong? one, two, three, four, five, six i go to the top, i win if i got, if i got yeah, but you've got to buy two of these first but i've got to make sure that i've got ten in't i first? but your first time round and you've got to have two of these for yeah, eight one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight how many do i need? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven ooh, ah shit ooh close now i've got to go all the way round again, so no good buying nothing it's not worth it is it? ten , ooh keep going till i land on it one, two , three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten can i have my er ooh last one get that yellow eight bit of paper that yellow pad there shell and what happened, the pen was around somewhere phil had the pen , phil get the pen and will you add it up will you cheque book, by your cheque book weren't it? buy that one oh that's one of mine no i won't the only ones you want to buy is the green and the black cos they're in the bank i don't want i don't want to buy yet that's all i've got i know i can't and you can't get any more money you need it don't you, you got, you will, what you're thinking about based on that you're fucking out you cunt i missed a divorce anyway so i'm alright can you get the pen, bastard got a pen? what do you want a pen for? you had it cos there ain't any of the ten thousands left cos you had it and you're going up as well ain't you? and i'm going up as well, but i'm where'd i put the pen? you're on but i'm going race track as well so i'm on the race it's on the book weren't it? i'm on the race track on auto trader i'm on the race track now i throw the dice myself here don't i? i go one, right, i hadn't said a number yet i keep doing that it's all right, i have you got the pen? it's on there phil i've got to stick with eight ain't i, cos eight's got to come again six six how many? five five ten ooh the bank nearly then something up top, so i'm selling back on the bottom so i'm selling these come on, who wants these? oh nobody, cos no one 's in the middle yeah we are, me and phil are where shell? oh no we're not no we're passed we're not in the middle you in the middle? no oh aye so he's, he's back down there, is green owes me five hundred the bank yeah oh shit yeah that's olives that's green it's five hundred not er, hundred, not five hundred not five hundred, it's only a hundred innit? what? nice try gary but it didn't work who's go? shell's go? mine i've got two, i've gone from one side of the wagon to the other i keep getting there one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven you get the last one again, ha oh here we go who's got the pad? me she has keep count then five, one, two, three, four don't have to at the moment don't forget to call straight away one, two, three, four, one, two, three i'll have that one you would of been divorced if you'd been in the middle i can't buy , i can't buy yet oh a couple of twelves get me right the way round, one, two, three, four, five, six, one, two six, one, two, three, four, five, six, ooh, i'll have one of them oh that's not mine you could of who keeps puffing smoke it's from here three thousand pounds, ooh one, two, three oh it's only three of them little yellow ones yeah golden ones six better than a kick in the teeth innit? ooh what's this, this is a one, two, three, four, five, six ooh a louis the x v commode oh lend me ten thousand oh there's none of, oh yeah i can do these now can't i? yeah, do them with them can't you? yeah until we haven't got any right, now i've got to throw the dice we've got quite a few to go a thousand times rolling those dice ooh seven thousand give me two thousand, three thousand, give me two that's what we like phil see cos that means you keep all the pink ones back five, six, seven, eight , one, two, three, four, five, one, two, oh shit can you ten thousand ah ah you sure you don't want me to keep it? three thousand money comes to money i say that's what pam says every time your mother wins at bingo it happened to her and every, it's always money goes to money she was born with a silver spoon, i was born with a wooden spoon oh i've got to miss a go anyway haven't i? oh yes, don't cheat i'm being honest seven that make's a change whoops i was on there wasn't i? one, two, three, four, five, six, ooh, here we go will it be a little yellow one? don't know got a few of them though yeah she must have a few of them, she's been up there a while what? i've got three now, i've only got three only and a few fives, a few fives, look at all them fives god she no, cos phil's gonna erm seven the game's over what number you going for? i'm not, it's the stock exchange of course it is that'll do one, two, five that fifteen, i, i keep on doing eight oops sorry one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, might go on it gary, i'll kick your arse oh he's on the stock exchange that's right you want five there just think, down one each side nine nine nine , that's equal amount er what? you're investing yeah, go on then what would the last number of been? ten, ha plus two times it's sure to come come on then gal shit phil did i turn the fire off? eh? haven't got any credit phil did i turn that the fire off at home? soon find out when you get home won't you? if the lights are still on yeah, but did i turn the bars off? not bad about it the fucking dog'll sizzle up well the dog'll sizzle up, the dog taken it over will he seven one, two, three, four, five, six, seven not gonna buy anything? what do i need? this stuff i'm going round and i'm gonna get i need a , i need another thingybob, oh shit smiling at, oh four, that's how i go, right you were saying you need another what in a minute? a thousand times oh, shit, i'd better do that first oh ah, no, you're there, you're there, you are on stock exchange, is she? yeah i was then i had three, yeah, good oh i was just about to get rid of that oh shucks six, one, two, three, four, five, six, i'll buy that one ooh yeah ooh i say you wouldn't buy mine no i won't buy it six, one, two, three, four, five oh i thought you were going down then gary ten, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten ten, oh, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten and i've already got one of them, thank you is the iron off? five, one, two, three, four, missed the fucking taxes thank christ for that six, one, two, three, four, five, six yeah, you seemed to gain your ten thousand don't you, then you lose it three there oh one, two, three, two hundred quid, wow six put one, two, three, four, five, six six, now i'll have one of them, that's yours phil cos i need another one do i have to sell it? yeah, but he was a bastard to you wasn't he? of course you do yeah, you didn't want one of mine did you? no, nor mine, you should of there you go three thousand yes i know, this'll make me sick go at it with a fast engine yeah yeah go round about one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight you want to buy me out then? yeah he needs his own one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, i'll buy that one then no you can't, cos you haven't been round you haven't been round yet i have that's your first time of going round, no i have you haven't i've been round once, of course i've been round once you pratt no you haven't, you only collected a thousand the second one, yeah that's your first time round, we've only been round twice yeah what? i've been round twice ain't i? no not yet on that pokey little, er i think i have you know i think you find that i have, i have one, two, three, four, five i've been on stock exchange at least once oh race track, ooh i think you'll find that i have, tell you the truth i think you'll find that i have two thousand but no i don't, i don't give a fuck erm i've been round there twice because i've swiped this, one i've been round there number eleven again cos i said to you last time, i said fucking, that was close weren't it? no that was the first time round was it? ten put it in the bank this bank's getting quite healthy here it's is good innit? the way you've got haven't you got nine nine fifteen haven't you? one, two, three, four something like that five, i don't need them any more cos you had that seven didn't you? it's just my money i need seven one, two, three, four, five, six, seven don't you want aunty pam's fur coat? do you want one of them phil? no i keep on landing on that one one, two, three, four i'm on the stock exchange oh hell mm, mm borrow that oh shit number one spin time, five lose half of it get the, that's it ooh alright oh shit yes it did does you too that's one plus two times twenty pound what was it last time then? ooh mm ooh a shit, that's what i need, does, does that count as my go? no you can't go up just like that one, two, three, four, five another hundred pound bloody hundred oh that's mine as well innit? eleven one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven can i have ten thousand credit due please shell? i haven't got any credit twelve, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, can i have my can i have mine as well please? i like to use the money but you must be nearly out, two hundred thousand who? ten, twenty, thirty, forty, forty five, fifty, fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty, eighty one, eighty two, eighty three, eighty four, eighty five, eighty six she's been up there a long time hasn't she? eighty seven i've got fifteen of them eighty eight she's been up there quite a long time hasn't she? eighty nine thousand , i need another go round and another thousand pound and i've won because i've got me two thingybobs i've got fifteen of them here and i'm still in the bloody bottom class and your go, your my go already? gary must of got more than me though no you've just had your go it's julie's go you've got a lot more than me, but not a lot where are you then, yeah, but, you're up in the high but, he, he ain't bought anything he can start buying now he ain't bought all his yeah, but, so with that all he only needs, he only needs to get what are you doing with a diploma? he ain't bought any yet he just should of had that one you don't need a diploma but er pay back, straight back in the bank cos nobody's in that one it's the diploma i want you only, you only need to buy two you don't need the diploma at the top you need one gotta buy two after you st , start going round so if no you've been round once i've been round twice but nobody believes me if you manage to buy two before i get eleven thousand pounds yeah i've been round twice, but it doesn't matter a hundred thousand yeah, yeah yeah you want eleven thousand yeah if you manage to buy two things before i make eleven thousand you've beat me. i know, i've been round twice that's what i'm trying to say seven oh i would of won by now, but somebody cheated one, two, three, four five, six, seven oh shit me and my big mouth i've just gotta say shelly so that's the ten thousand gone can you handle a lot of money? i need twenty one thousand but i'm the winner now, hang on i've only gotta go back down hang on again haven't i? er oh pissed off then where are one, we're up in the high aren't we? yeah, but gary needs them you, you need the green one and gary needs both so my blue one's there just give phil's back and give the bank's back just give me, give me a bill for that no because that means you've won no cos like , no i ain't phil's got a long way to go actually give me, give me a bill for that so do you want the green man phil? yeah now it was three thousand weren't it? how much did the bank give me? five hundred five hundred you can have it for fifteen hundred go on then and i'll have mine back for five hundred, yeah yeah cos you've had a so two thousand for the lot yeah, cos you've still only got one then haven't you? and you'll want that, right, thank you very much and i'm back in it? it's gone your fireworks in it? yeah i see if you had it gary you would of won one, two, three, four, five, six, seven race course race track fuck this, ah shit i'm at the race course you can just say that yeah, but you're not stupid enough to sell them to me would you? cor i'm so fucking poor no ten three three , seven put it in the bank give it to me seven give it to me then shell, give it to me, have i had mine? oh so i'm bloody back down again yeah you've had yours four, one, two, three, four wait a minute that's mine i've, i've oh shit that's one of my own i've never had one of my own before one, two, three, four, five, six, oh i've got to go all the bloody way round before i can buy anything. six, one, two, three, four, five, six, oh shit this is better than nine, one, two, three, four, five, six seven, eight, nine, i've put, erm yeah i, er, no, i can buy that one can't i? mm, mm mm, mm yeah, i'll buy that one why don't you use three of the other ones? yeah, i'll use three thousand how many more do you need phil? i've got about forty five thousand fifty thousand i've got oh shit, roll again oh, one, two, three, four at least i know i haven't got to worry about divorce five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten do i get a card? at least i know i haven't got to worry about a divorce no not this time though oh yeah, yeah what's that? seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven ascot fruit stake, ticket on a horse roll a double and you win a thousand pounds, roll an even and you win two hundred, roll an odd and you we haven't landed on that yet have we? no oh shit you've won a thousand pounds even , oh yeah double that's the way to do it no thank you or nothing thank you very much i'm alright, i'm safe gal up there you can win yeah, but you wouldn't do it would you? are you gonna be nasty to us? well we could we could start all over again then couldn't we? why we've got it, yeah, whatever, yeah whatever going you've got in there you don't have to sell them back to him he's gonna win anyway but why? not yet in two rounds not yet i'm not no right i could get up there before he buys alright anything alright not likely, but i might, i need one, two, three, four it's up to you five, six, seven, eight if you want to finish it, depends if you want to finish it how many tens of boxes have you got? like that i think i could just do it sex, that sex maniac card game yeah, but you see he's still gotta find two yeah so that's gonna cost him six thousand of what he's got yeah i know so how much you got? i'm not quite sure i'm counting actually i'd say i've got ten, plus my bits that's why i've got to stay up here a bit longer really innit? erm, where am i, i'm on there, so what is it a thousand, do you want to pay my bill? i've won then haven't i? yeah, then we start the game again don't we? what about a game of that sex maniac no i'm not playing sex maniac so mother bought that for me for chris for us for christmas and you've never played it? do you want to? i don't mind do you want to finish it or not? no you see i, see how i go for a minute right, then we'll wait a bit longer so you're gonna pay his bill for those? for that one? no i don't wanna do it cos i wanna go up there, i wanna win right sorry phillip you dickhead i'm not being nasty i'll give him the money, but i was on there i just didn't want to fill that, i wanna win fair and square i wanna win through, somebody give me his cards five hundred each one one was a diploma i think no, not up on the top one no, was er black not one i see no cos you've got that my last i did that's what that diploma was, you know, paid me for it for that five hun , that's what it was ah, i've been using me credit cards for the art gallery no you had two like that, er i hope we don't break down going home phillip so i'll feel a twat walking around with your work socks work socks and slippers stock exchange, i'm on nine you see he could lose the lot now phil no he won't, he's erm, erm i'm not stupid he's not collecting ten pounds you going to invest money? what's that seven? no no i or not yes that's a house what's that? could of thrown them a bit, bit better than that, give them a fucking shake and i'll just why couldn't i of kept the exam cheating shit bad loser that's your trouble you don't want your ten thousand to pass under it one, two, three, four, five, six no i haven't had that yet my ten thousand for passing er she takes her two hundred though from my ten thousand right and i'll erm you watch them race track good on and i'll have one of these cos i ooh that one i've got decisions, decisions eleven, ha, oh shit that would mean twenty to one that was close weren't it? oh fucking hell cor that was even closer weren't it? oop, i moved your pen what a shame put it in the bank shit ten bye bye money, give me that in a minute will you? i'll have it back in a minute six, one, two, three, four, five, six, i ain't gone bloody round yet fifty one thousand i've got, more than that i've got, let's see eight i haven't bought one up there yet i think one, two, three four, five, six his face then one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, i'll buy that one whatever that may be, olives, olives, olives whoever she is olives that's shell's is it? mm, mm do i need it? ooh diamonds for investment, ah give me the money for them yeah piss off cos i think we're all in for a chance to getting it now, fifty thousand no we're not, cos he's only got to get another one yes, yes, bastard, one, two, three, four, five but i've got to go round to that again haven't i? ah? haven't i go to go back round or not? no when i've got them all? as soon as you've got the money you win soon as you've got them all mm and the money, i win she's close but she's on eighty three thousand yeah, but you're one below me aren't you now? yeah what a shame i've got fourteen and seven, one, two, three, four, five, six what a shame, yeah, you in front of me, what a shame seven money wise, but you're not now are you? you, you, you're what you i can't buy yet, i haven't passed the middle call shit at the bottom aren't you? five, yeah, five, one, two, three, four, five i don't know why i didn't start buying them actually oh you wanted that phil could of got that ascot thing , should apologize for making her take, give him a grand three fifty pounds yeah what a shame oh, is that a one? you'll have to throw that one again cos nobody can tell, one, one, one, ah got it give me, me a a yellow one my money need a yellow one on top how i love you chicken pots one, two, three, four, five,si oh god five, one, two, three, forty, five,put for winnings a hundred times roll of both dice go on babe, go for it babe seven hundred just dar darts you were gonna say weren't you? seven thank you one, two, three, four, five, six, seven i never did much fucking look at that five, taxes, one, two, three, four, five i was saying i hope i don't go on five, hope i don't go on five, what do i fucking end up, on five seven thousand seven thousand cor can i afford it? he can have light yellow ones yeah, go on, cos i'll get them back in a minute won't i? and you've still got another ten thousand i think i think so, i think could just, no i haven't got the ten thousand i'm just under ah, i've got to miss a go haven't i? could of lost that four didn't i ah yeah in one go? oh no so you haven't got a hundred thousand? ten, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, oh golly here we go again she has, she has but she's at the bottom, so if she give me three of hers i'd be alright, ha art show, fifty quid jul i want three of yours, will you give me three of yours ah, sod off go on i'll make you a drink eight, one, two, three, four what you doing? that's mine there are cor i shouldn't of been there i think i should of been the next one along three, four, five , six, seven, eight i start mine again then six six , one, two, three, four, five, six you've already got one er one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine oh god why can't there be a seven, one, two, three, four, oh that's not you were on there i was on there weren't i one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, i still can't bloody buy, and i need er thousand pounds please shell i can i don't know i can't i haven't been bloody, yeah you have now, i've still gotta get to there yet before i can bloody buy anything eleven, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, i'll buy that one, er what's that? two hundred one, two leave the stock exchange again, at last i won this mm you gonna keep going? yeah, but fucking shake them shell, don't cheat shit oh bloody hell i'll have that investment plan ten times that's ten times that means he's gotta have i've, i've won haven't i, i reckon? a hundred thousand all i've got to do now is two, three, four, now five you haven't got enough have you? six, seven, eight oh yeah nine, ten, why don't you just take the whole bank what and use there you go think i should win then there are phil that's yours two ten, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten do you want to change it to fifteen hundred thousand? yeah, i'm only ten away from that the only trouble is i wanted a seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven i haven't got change it then ten i want to buy in a minute one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine a hundred times phil nice one mate a nice low one nine, nine hundred six i thought that was two then six, one, two, three, four, five, i'll buy that one, then i've won that's the game over then mm, yeah cos i've got about, cos i can double it and treble it again i reckon, i can, cos i had fifteen let's see if i can get the same then i had fifteen before i had the ten shell no can i have fifteen, shall i carry on? is that, how much you got there? you owe me three thousand first what for? for this, cos you oh we , were gonna do all that first are we? no, you, i, you just bought that a new cos you've just landed on it i've won yeah i know you've won well then so i haven't got to give you nothing no, okay i've come second see, no, no you don't, you've got to count up well shell's bank has come second yeah even though she's down on the bottom she's bound to of come second and me and phil come i've probably got more than you here you haven't yeah i think, you can't, how can you no, not if he's won oh no, he's just won he's just won on the houses ain't he? plus i already had that, plus i had another five i didn't tell you about, i had fifteen when you said you had fifteen, look, one there's me first ten eighty, ninety i've only got two of them fifteen, sixteen no eighty , eighty two fifty, erm, eighty two thousand and fif , no eighty thousand two hundred and fifty sixteen hundred thousand whatever it is four, five and a hundred and six, seven, eight, nine you had more or less double what i did didn't you? ten yeah i've double, i've got twenty, i've got two plus one right, put them into er two, three oh don't worry about putting them in piles, they only get chucked in the bottom of the box four oh do they? yeah hang on four, five, hang on i'm still going shell aargh mine's disgusting as well five six, seven, i say again seven, no i'm not, hang on eight, i'm twenty eight, two hundred and eighty thousand there that would just about buy er, a three bedroomed house it would would it? pity it isn't real really innit? and a bit of change and a bit of change, a bit of pocket money that's what phil's got innit phil? you've got pocket money i, i have er fifty five thousand that was a long game actually yes i've known don't want to start do we? what are we gonna do? gonna have a game of that? whatever, i'm gonna for a piss first what? so you can cheat now, i don't care, yes so i had, i had fifty before i had the ten shell have another game of this shell? i don't mind show gary how to i was just waiting we didn't need that put that back in there oh there's the spastic spaky band here mm, mm never mind now your, is your job alright now then phil? yeah yeah they've taken on extra staff are they? i would think so anyway yeah that he just , he asked gary this morning if he was looking for a job asked gary i would think they're taking on extra staff you've been told you've been training people ain't you? i haven't been told that, but what night? yeah i would think so nights or days i would of thought nothing's been really said about what's happening on that yet, not till the end of towards the end of the get offered the job first don't they? yeah they get offered the job, but, i told gary if he puts his erm name forward, is that the monopoly game? mm could of had a game of monopoly his dad was saying that er devon desserts were looking for a fork lift driver have you got a fork lift? yeah, what sort of price is it? wages is it? dunno, he didn't say he just said they need a fork lift driver right, what's this game all about then? no i was thinking, will you be able to get time off in september? we got monopoly, you've got monopoly ain't you? did you bring monopoly? yeah they have is it september time you wanna go to alton towers? yeah, whatever, what, was you can get your holiday whenever you like can't you? yeah why don't, you've got to be careful now haven't you? what ones have you booked? do they still count now it's changed manager? yeah so what ones have you booked? they can't stop you i've got one booked in oct september now they can't stop you i only want one day anyway, don't we? cos we're only going away for a weekend then aren't we? a long weekend yes a long weekend yeah, cos you'll want, you'll want you'll only need monday night off won't you? we're going, we're going on a friday you'll only need the sunday night sunday night off we're going on the friday and coming back on and the monday especially if we're travelling back on the monday we're going on the friday morning and coming back on this no we can't go the friday morning oh no because of the kids we'll go on the afternoon because everybody else will be working and we're, we're going on the friday afternoon and coming back on the monday afternoon. yeah, so really driving back all that way you want monday night off as well, you'll be knackered take monday , take fri take monday off as well take sunday and monday off? cos what we'll do we'll go out for a meal in the evening if we've got the money why don't we just go to keith's and let him do something? cos they always cook for us anyway no, eat out somewhere i think please yourself, we'll go with terry and kath just b and b, no, well dot'll probably down there, you know what she's like yeah, that's what i mean well if not, we'll go, eat out somewhere, it's just as cheap innit? well we won't have to go to look how much it cost us to go to that bloody restaurant with chris and keith yeah but look how far that not chris and keith, chris and dot yeah it was keith, chris and dot, no keith didn't go, you me, your dad oh that's right chris and dot she'll be alright if i come it was only about a mile down the road that place how far? through the sticks, right what do you do with this game then? dunno, you don't win nothing yes you do you don't wanna go, you don't wanna go october do you? if your aunt asks you to play shuffle the cards and place face down in the centre of the no cos playing surface it closes in october don't it? cos we went there do you know the last week in september and it was the last week it was open, so you're better of going near the middle or i mean the beginning or all we've got to do is phone the middle of september we'll phone chris and keith and ask them the best time for us to go when the kids are not there, and she'll tell us when do the kids , the kids go back to school the first week so if you go first week in september the second week in september yeah, well you check on that, but i think that'll be okay won't it? cos that's when we went weren't it? second week yeah what do you, what do you do here then? cards have got to go face down on the table yeah, shuffle , i read that,decide who goes first, the rest following in succ er whatever,start playing in a clockwise direction you've gotta read one of the two questions on it and there's like the player takes the first card and looks at it, if it is a question card ask the next player, one of the two questions oh shit, they're, they're all together now if the card is the instruction card, do you know what happens if you don't get it right then? yeah, it just goes to the bottom of the pack, but erm there's numbers up there, you've gotta collect them to spell out sex maniac mm, mm so you've got to keep hold of that whoever spells out sex maniac, but if you have more than nine, every card ah so it's the first person who spells sex maniac yeah easy innit? every time you get a question right you pick a card, but if you have more than, once you've got more than nine cards you've got to put one at the bottom of the pack again yeah, but you keep them all tidy won't you? yeah, i'm just trying to shuffle them to keep them together you don't shuffle them like that you doughnut, how you shuffle cards with a pack of playing cards yeah they're a bit thicker than these you stupid cow moo well no how much does it work out to to stay at kit's twelve pound a night innit? i dunno that , i mean you're gonna have to find out, find out if it's cheaper to stay at keith's or not that's for both of you i was gonna say it's ten pound a night each at that place we saw that was lovely weren't it? yeah, these, these are nice, these are nice yeah but you see we get this is nice they're all en suite rooms nice yeah and you've got your own showers and some of them you've got your own toilet got your own toilet, your own shower, now two the double rooms got it, he's just had it all done ain't he? yeah, we'll have the double rooms, yeah? cos they're nice aren't they? how much? he's alright he is it's her uncle they're alright we'll eat, we'll eat in the dining room you know the second week in sept we're not eating in the back room, he can get stuffed, we'll eat in the posh end for a change jul, like we did last time if we go the second week in september, then that way we can well we won't when we get there, they don't do evening meal cor blimey that's tasty innit? it, it has to be the first weekend does it? breakfast breakfast i think yeah did you have it quiet when you went? oh yeah it was lovely, the only trouble was we had pigs outside the fucking window and we sat there with the bacon yeah, but did you have a big fry up? yeah, but what you had you had a choice of two cereals to start yeah plus a fresh squeezed orange help yourself to that great big jug of orange juice weren't it between us there? it was only us two there weren't it? yeah, because it should of been fifteen pounds a night and we got it for ten only about, only about a mile away from the fucking that's right it was help yourself wasn't it? it was in norton itself , yeah and what else did you get? oh what about that place we stayed, we were gonna stay at? and the stairs were like that weren't they and i said oh no way am i staying, get pissed out your head and come down them stairs and mm said to you, cos oh well i thought about because we know the pubs and we can go to queens or whatever for a few days see open there were only, oh god remember that big posh place tripped over going in the door, we ran straight back out again right here we go then yeah, right down the bottom right there was a street light coming up the bloody who's going first then? we're going round this way, erm gary's first i suppose then julie you're first no go on shell so i've got to ask you the question? when gary's stopped dying i haven't stopped dying yet oh here we go so this is all gonna be on there innit? this is where i'm no, leave it on gal i am, i am, i was just looking at it killing herself i haven't even read it out yet you haven't even read it out yet you wait i've gotta ask phil does it go round like that until somebody answers it? no i only ask julie no, but the next one i'm gonna ask him oh who swung over the audience on a swing and pissed all over them ? was it a, annie sprinkle, b, lulu, or c cosi fan tutti? pissed all over them . a, b or c? i dunno, er b no, that one goes it was that erm cosi fan tutti never heard of it yeah, right phil yeah it's easier than picking the pack up innit? i dunno, i suppose you've got to pick the pack up ain't you? no just keep putting them on top and when you get to the bottom trust me to get that one, just start again clever aren't i? no you don't because then that'll be at the bottom won't it? that's right fucking you clever, like hell you are i like this one what is the capital hold on you've got a choice of two don't forget oh that's all we're gonna hear on this tape now bloody hell what is a wankel? i can't say that without laughing, right what is a what? a wanker or wrangle? see him smiling what is a wankel? a, a rotary car engine with a triangular rotor, b a do it yourself circumcision kit or c a cuddly toy ? b no a, a rotary car engine with a triangular rotor i thought you would of known that i thought you weren't gonna tell the answer i don't know you didn't yeah i did did you? that fan tutti woman pissed all over the crowd oh was there, i thought you was yeah cos you remember it when your if you get it right, you'll put it to one side yeah? yeah you keep them what i do? if i get this one right it comes to me? yeah you keep the card right, give us a card then phil you've got to spell out sex maniac give us the card then phil that's s e x m a n i c x, no c yeah yes sex maniac right why did victorians put skirtings around the table legs? a to help men get sexually aroused, b to make them make them look like women's legs, c to prevent men getting sexy aroused? c oh, don't let other people see what letters you've got that one was easier , it was orgasm or oh i would of got that one i would of it's all the big words i look at that's why you obviously don't like playing it then innit? i like reading them well he hasn't laughed yet who had a man obsession with a mormon ? with a what man? a mormon a mormon it's er a religion innit? a, madonna, b, joyce mckinny or c donny osmond ? c it's not it's a no it's b easy that it's a religion innit mormon? how are we supposed to where did marilyn monroe say she kept her undies? in the ice box, in the president kenn kennedy's pocket, or in the post ? a b in an ice box i bet she had a cold cunt every morning frozen orgasms she did didn't she yeah yeah all your cards with the player to your right, so you've got to give me all your cards, and i've got none, so so you get that one you lose a fucking card gal, that's not fair is it? kick her in the head i don't get a go? yeah yeah you can't do it that way, you just slide the pack out so what now i get another phil? cheat , no yeah of course you do, must do mustn't you? no no you must miss out on a go, oh it doesn't say, let him have another go then it doesn't say? it doesn't say, no wait for it oh you're only allowed to have eight cards at one time who said sex appeal so can you win it if you only have eight cards at one time? you can't have all ten? yeah, cos like if you've got three ss or something then you put one at the bottom of the pack and keep the card if you've got an got to try and save up for them what was that card again? swap, it was an instruction card if this card is an instruction card it must be obeyed by the person asking the question, the instruction card is then placed at the bottom of the pack, instruction cards are ren randomly mixed with the question cards and can change directions of play, make you give to the player to the left one of your cards etcetera, if a player has more than it doesn't say. no alright oh i just who says sex appeal is fifty percent what you've got and fifty percent what people think you've got? a, sophia loren, b, george burns, or c, terence trent d'arby? c no sophia loren i ask, one night i sat there julie grab that won't you? alright grab it towards you whatever, like you did that money, grab that money one night i had some anyway it's number a no it ain't don't tell me the answer i asked all these questions to well i should play this with uncle john oh god if you wanna, do you want to do all the movements then? he'll wanna show you what, what, what these things are won't he? what so he's we haven't looked at that, we haven't looked at that video yet have you? no, we asked him and he said it was with his work mates post, post courteous ominor ominer ominer animals,est , testes testicles intestine no, animal estesties means ain't the other one easier? means a all animals are bollock-less no, sad out of the bonking, all people secretly like to bonk animals all animals are tired after bonking c no a yeah embarrassed at bonking curious way to bonk animals no at a he didn't want that letter anyway it was number a ah it's too easy for you what is a don juan? a, an ol an old on going erotic role playing game, b an attractive reckless seducer and c a drink which is consumed in one go ? b shit mm here we go my turn yeah, let's kick some ass man, what do they call a blow job cos, it's not a blow job is it? what is a you don't blow you suck. what is an agent what about a deep throat gary i've seen it so, go on what is an agent provocateur? not one of them a sexual go between, a secret agent planted to seduce the enemy into misbehaving, a chemical in massage oil which makes you tingle in a bathroom having a wank erm a no, it was an agent planted to seduce the enemy into misbehaving, listen to this one,does a lollipop lady do blow jobs in blue movies, help british children across the road, display downward trends at the stock market it's fucking easy innit? oh shit what does the book, the joy of sex, describe an orgasm as? a, an enormous explosion b, the most religious moment in a person's life what's this? hang on gal,or c like jumping off a cliff into the sea what's this one? what does the book, the joy of sex, describe an orgasm as ? i'll give it c , i give c no b, the most religious moment in a person's life oh yeah i suppose you shout oh god i'm coming , every time that bloody thing goes off i've gotta go and blow my nose myself before a piece comes out of it gary hasn't seen er, shall we, walk on the wild side has he? dunno, don't think so oh god and then she took half a roll come on it's your turn gary i know she's got a big conk, but bloody hell oh right let's go should of had the microphone out of the hit me with it quickly, do you want some more? no thanks i've just had to spit me coffee back in there you're not bloody erm well what happened? i had a mouthful of coffee and i thought that she farting when did she make the coffee? no that's still the first one, urgh that's what i made earlier urgh fucking hell shell got a tip your coke, why don't you tip your coffee back in there and then there's this coke no i'm drinking that and that's secondhand that. what does, what does lou, lou reed describe at the beginning of his song, walk on the wild side? right, a, shave pussies b, transvestite finger licking good c, wandering down sidney oxford street ? what was b? transvestite c no, b b fucking transvestite, i thought it was i've heard of it what was the first one licking pussy? no finger licking good first one was erm shave pussy oh shave pussy yeah finger licking good finger licking good and wipe under the table swap one card with a player of your choice, ah i swap with you cos i don't think you're the only fucker that has got one have you? yeah other than me i ain't got one yet nor have i an a for an a well go to the top of the class for having an a, well don't tell them what we've got shell oh here we go that other one was easy oh which one do i go for? it's gonna be a fucking long game and all, there's worse to come the three hundred club is for people who have a, done a south pole streak from sauna, two thousand, oh two hundred degrees fahrenheit to outdoors minus one hundred degrees fahrenheit or a penis, a penis of over three hundred millimetres long or a club for people who have made love in a helicopter ? oh i got a oh the last one no the first one oh was it? someone who's done a streak from a sauna to outdoors in the south pole, mm, that's enough to turn your nibbles on i know where number two club is, but that's about it in a nineteen sixty eight sex survey, which men preferred small breasts? a, depressed men, b, men who played indoor games or c, men who take their coffee black ? b no a, depressed men you depressed are you phil? yeah, i'm always happy darling, i shall want, i don't have black coffee, what was the other one? play indoor games yeah mm, you're playing an indoor game now we do in bed don't we, that's a little game squash ah, when we play middle i hide it and she finds it , she seeks for it anyway yeah his eyebrows go right down don't they? and glasses do you see? go on gal give me a nice easy one nothing, can't even read that one through, go with this one. happy weekend is the name of a, a kit sold in sex shops for dirty weekends, b, a german sex magazine listing positions, or c, allow abba l p ? i nearly said an l b b yeah i cor where'd you buy it from then? the other one was erm, important men can get erections and it was pretty easy so i thought fuck it fuck it i'll give him all the easy ones don't i? go on then your go you'd of got the second one wouldn't you? i don't know this is a good one jul, you'll like this one touch her yeah this is to shell, what do you mean i'll like it? er, no i, i'm gonna do the other one, but the other one will be a laugh for work for the boys at work, but i can't say it say it afterwards yeah what is the percentage of uncircumcised men in the world? a, eighty five percent, b, fifty five percent or c, ninety percent ? b no it's a, but this one what were the knee pads associates brown noses you know oh yeah adrian no adrian , well erm the bosses men see, they wear the knee pads every day, i say to jack i say you got a game called sex maniac, he says yeah, i'll say well you're fucking in there, knee pads associates your dad was quite chatty, wasn't he at work i thought you didn't want to know what about? at work oh yeah i suppose he was in the sort of who reputedly sold sex for luncheon vouchers? aargh fucking weren't me quinton crisp golden wonder his name crispen weren't it? frank harris or cynthia payne ? oh definitely cynthia payne yeah it had to be yeah it had to be didn't it? i don't know, who is she? she's the one who got done, that she's the whore isn't she? she's the one who had the whorehouse, she had the whorehouse yeah yes she's the she's the one who did it for money that's the one in texas no, she had the luncheon vouchers she had, she had the whorehouse in texas didn't she? yeah but what she call it? chicken , chicken something house chicken ranch chicken, chicken, chicken no what is she? chicken whore she's a fucking no not a whore she was named she was a pimp she's a something girl, she's a fucking something girl yeah , she's a oh god, yeah she's a firm scarlet i can't remember cos it was a chicken ranch, there was a programme on one night about it she's, she's she's what's it called, her madame cynthia madame cynthia, is that what she was, yeah? i, i'm trying to think, oh that's mine innit? what letter was that? i'm not telling you a bit smokey in here i haven't even lit them up yet which famous hotelier forbade unlawful sex in their hotel? a, meg richardson, from crossroads, b, basil fawlty had this one before or c, charles forte ? i'll got for b yeah basil fawlty really? yeah mm yes fawlty towers i've heard it before yeah, that was an easy one actually, cos that one was on telly was it, was it then? yeah, he went bonking with his missus every night on fawlty towers didn't he? oh no they had single beds didn't they? gary it's not yours who's go is it? oh oh he's looking at the card, phil's go to gary see somebody could of won by now some of these they're all brainy depends what these questions, you don't have to be fucking brainy have you, you've got to know all about sex yeah, but i asked a load to phil's dad and what's that word jul? he answered every single one of them right just tell me what that word is just say no more, than that shit just say that, how's that need that ask gary that question oh bloody hell yeah, but they're looking at this tape and they're saying cor they're a bunch of fucking thickos aren't they? yeah, but i wonder how many of them can answer these questions yeah, they'll be have a fucking go at that matey right this is phil's question to you what is furthest titism ? furthest titism furthest titism titism right yeah the female provarian no the female preference to male clothes, b, children, children's habit of dressing up in their own parents' clothes, c, a morbid fear of eggs ? a morbid fear of? eggs e g g s you know comes out of fanny's clit what no, go on then comes out of a chicken's arse don't you mean? yeah, but go on, go on a fanny's clit fanny, yeah oh, who's going first? b no, a, a female preference to male's clothes is it in your way? who's way me, that was me you've won a card have you? yeah oh yeah basil fawlty one mm you asked if i'd got it that's how i got it, knew what it was fish tank i can hear yeah, turn it off then, just that, just turn the light out, save the electricity how much electric does that use? not a lot that black box, give it a white switch, no there's a white switch at the bottom, no, on, in front, behind the, that's it. can you imagine playing this when you're just out your head? what is the modern implication of pride in relation to sex? a, slapstick , slapstick sex using flour, love of the family or pride in being gay ? b no c oh how do you know they're saying the right yeah you can have a look then if you don't believe me, cunt oh you're giving me a card are you? i think i'll have one of your cards oh for fuck sake i've got to swap one of mine for one of yours now that's better. you got to go again cunt yeah she hasn't had a question yet yeah, i haven't had a question don't shuffle with my words do i? no ah, ooh shit i thought i shuffled them quite well then, don't you? ah shit, which one shall i go for? any one, we'll make a move soon it's twelve o'clock we haven't finished yet who is a pop singer, who is the pop singer with pierced genitals? mary hopkins, ozzie osborne or genesis ? ozzie osborne gotta be innit? no genesis i was gonna go for that but i thought that was too bloody obvious the other one was no, no i thought ozzie osborne what is a merkin, a pubic wig cornish slang for a prostitute or a jock strap worn by, initiates in a masonic ritual ? c c c it's a pubic wig how do you know he's that bulge down there just what you've always wanted, oh pubic wig, have you ever heard of a pubic weapon see me as a, you know when, when the bloke comes running says it's funny did it and the chest wig comes off, you imagine with a penis, you go up with a penis and you, oh what's that she says, what's that? oh no, can't read that one, that's too easy she say, what's that? what's the opening you can have a bit more space then phil can't you? shh, shh, shh, shh , hang on a minute can't watch his feet gal what's the opening immediately behind the clitoris ? you'll like this one gary,is it a, the virgin erm no wait for it,b, urethra p hole or c, the nook where the clitoris hides, so men can never find it c no b, the urethra or p hole key hole i was gonna say i was gonna go for that one, but the, the last one going was pretty good well it would of been easier for a woman to answer wouldn't it? that would of sounded good cos like you always thought that women only had two holes they have haven't they? your go phil what are you doing gary? oh a bloody fag yeah i'm trying to get rid of it, bit more left though, long time, it's fucking too much come on ooze means to what? sorry? ooze ooze right, which is spelt o o z e right? mm means to make love in mud, b, use bodily secretions from one part of the body on another part oh c, move your feet slowly and sneakily ? a no, c, move your feet that one was about another fucking film or something was it the word fucking, it's, some of these words oh, who's thought up this bloody game he must be sick in the head, paul hammond you need about fucking forty eight hours to get through this is with butter used as a sex aid, a, mash b, a, mash, b, out of africa or c, the last tango in paris ? c ooh paris so it's gotta be dirty innit? oh here we go what is the donkey pump a special sex position used by men with large organs an extra spare steam pump or a device used for ar artificial insemination of donkeys ? bloody hell dunno a no it was b b oh bloody what is the black bore, oh fucking hell, a foreskin gun cor fucking hell, that makes me cringe that does right phil your turn oh god pretty serious i still can't get over that woman pissing on the audience oh god they're not very good who had an i q four times their breast size? a, mary pickford her bust was thirty two inches, b, jane mansfield, her bust was forty three inches fucking lucky bitch or c, albert einstein his bust was forty six inches ? i'll go for b c yeah gotta be c innit? no b jane mansfield, her bust was forty three b he's, he's gotta have more than forty , he's gotta have more the other one was a bit,what was the love that dare not speak it's name? homosexuality, love between nuns, or sex what was that? i dunno a homosexual was it a? yeah that was a guess let's see if i can read this one, i'm not reading all that lot ooh he's trying to wank the table leg now i'm not look, look at all that, fucking reading that out fucking hell is that the one, is that for one answer? fucking hell, go for it then, we've got all night, we don't have dinner till one o'clock so it don't matter, we'll still be sat here. mm cow's that make the tea come on no, i go for this one oh god it's shorter is miss brit ekland brit ekland, yeah ekland, talking about when she said it can handle a woman like a lift, he knew exactly where to locate the top button, one flick and we were on our way only one question whether she was up or down warren beatty , a, warren beatty, b, stan laurel, c, tom cruise ? a, warren beatty another a thank you only one letter asked we've all got two cards now haven't we? oh we're all getting there no gary's got three i think taken us, mm, half an hour which monarch had a liking for sex with horses ? it's er, done that one, but it don't matter well do the other one then no it's fucking longer a, a, frederick the great, b, charlie mangly , fucking hell who's he? and c, catherine the great ? b c, catherine the great she had a what? had to be a woman something liking to horses which monarch had a liking for sex with horses ? cor, she must have a big fanny that's why she was called catherine the great especially if it's that horse out in spain, cor his dick was dragging along the bloody floor weren't it and everyone was taking photos of it that's why she's called catherine the great have fun she should of fucking put fucking i bet you were fucking horse sick more like it what do the letters t w a t stand for? t w a t ? yeah twat self help group at the, for tiny penis men which is tiny willies are tremendous is that what your joining gary? that's what, i was gonna say that a safer sex education manual for street walkers, which is tuscan, whores and trends or the times world air tours ? c a c b b save the sex education manual for tuscan, whores and trends you were smiling then oh god, who's to my, you're to my right aren't you shell? gal yeah gotta change all of them? yeah oh so what crap have i got now? swap all your cards oh i've got them two back again , ah so one of you, yeah right, ah god swap back swap one card with the player of your choice , so gary silly really, cos er, you have that one mm you didn't shuffle these very well did you? ah shall we shuffle them again? no we get them fucking out then questions we've answered will come back up we don't even need them do we? what is not a sleazeball? a, an annual gay party in sidney, b, a oh i can't even say that word, hang on make laughing, a derogatory terming degenerate or c, a penis that's so shrunken it looks like a pair of testicles ? so what is not a sleazeball? a no c, a penis so shrunken it looks like a pair of testicles, they'll be killing themselves won't they? they'll probably go out and buy the game, oh my god it's sick i thought you, could of stayed the night, couldn't you? got the dog though ain't we? means going back in the morning and taking him for a walk i know but i've turned it off, so my electric bill will be sky high. why did japanese stop calling their brother turkish baths, number, nobody understood they were supposed to be brothers, brothels , sorry and then the question, instead of the i've said the fucking question wrong anyway why did the japanese stop calling their brothels turkish baths anyway, nobody understood they were supposed to be brothels, the turkish government requested it, they didn't want to, to discriminate against the greeks a no b you should ask them both questions on the card, that way we've got a better chance of getting them bloody card for yourself innit? no crying over that one mm what was the wet dream for a, laundry day at eton b, sex festival in amsterdam in the early seventies or c a side show at blackpool ? b yeah had to be amsterdam didn't it? dirty bastards, oh god oh bloody hell why do they have to put such long words in them? you can piss on coke who threw off his clothes and danced naked in front of the holy art? david king of the jew, david bowie or david frost ? bloody hell, a a bit frosty weren't it? yeah it was had to be didn't it? yeah couldn't of been david frost chuck us over a packet of crisps will you? i'm starving i've got some crusts down here if you want to what you got prawn? fish, only when you have a bit of sex innit? i like fish no thanks no which hollywood actress had alleged to have had sex with an entire football team which included john wayne? a, joan sutherland, b, shirley temple or c, clara bow gotta be shirley temple then she loved her who is it? a no c, clara bow i haven't even heard of her on the good ship lollipop oh that was shirley temple the other one was a bit silly really cos it says what is not a shag ? what is not a shag? yeah, but it, erm, er something dance in the sixties, a med medieval something or other and something else he always gets a crease when he's chewing, his eyebrows when he's concentrating. how long does it take to the nearest hour for snails to bonk? do what? for a snail to bonk for snails to p=bonk a just thought of something i tell your dad cos he called you, he said that you go at a snail's pace didn't he today? oh yeah when they were watching the bloody running this afternoon mm,a, twelve hours, b, one hour or c, twelve, twenty four hours to what? for snails to bonk c twenty four hours a a i should of gone for twelve hours twelve hours for a shag, my god be a fucking pensioner i knew it was that one before you twelve hours just to get in the right position it is though innit? that's before they started no, if he's not taking much of this in he'd wanna start talking he's just sat there and when he starts smiling must take him about two weeks which of the following is a constant cam campaigner against censorship ? oh no, not that one,who formed the british prostitutes union? a, lynsey saint, saint clare, b, penelope french lessons or c, her in buckingham ? a no c c, shit he's alright, he likes this time of night don't he? mm he'll probably sleep all night see, see if he does no i think he had a dirty bum. which commandment forbids adultery? the fifth, the seventh or none of them actually forbids it c no seventh seventh oh seventh, adultery innit? us being religious we would you are not last commandment that is there's only seven commandments anyway in't there? no there's ten ten i know that much oh god what's the other one? here are phil ready?got to clear me throat for a minute the seventh the why come from where he cometh what does the expression cod piece mean ? now are you ready for this? do you know he's just woken up then? a, a fishy smell b, a scrotum protector or c, a play that is a hoax on another play b yeah yes oh a scrotum protector last time i pack my i've had that one before mm not for that, i haven't heard it for that cos i've heard yeah i've heard that as i knew it was definitely one of them that's why your clothes are always fishy when you take them off at night then? i knew it was definitely not that we're even-stevens at the moment, we've both got three mm that's three, six yeah, but you've got decent letters i know damn well i haven't i've got three different ones yeah i have now because i changed with phil didn't i? yeah, i didn't have until i had to swap them all round no this one will do me,what is a man ? right not a gary and not a phil no a, someone with x and y chro , chromosomes chromosomes chromosomes, b someone who pees standing up or c, something with, some, someone who has testicles well it can't be b because stephanie pisses standing up what is a what chrom what is a man? what is a man? he's gotta think about that the one with x, y chromosome, someone who pees standing up, someone who has testicles ? two what? it's gotta be c two it's gotta be a no it's not a there is no real definition, the closest is b someone who stands? i was gonna say b someone who pees standing up? yeah, but that's the closest cos when you said but there's no real definition yeah but you can have a sex change and pee standing up and have testicles, but you can have the x and y chromosomes can you? cos they can't transplant all your hormones as well well that's the answer excuse me you twats from the university, send us the answer come on gal sex, sex, sex what did sex you've got an a have you? what did fraud oh freud believe that most sons wanted to do to their mothers? a, wet their pants wet their pants to annoy them b, suckle and c, make love to them c you've gotta be in the, no actually it's b really mm you wanna fuck your mother do you? right, go ahead no i'm not really i flashed last time need to annoy their mums mm everybody's got three have they? yeah yeah i can't fucking read them names which sex magazine is now run by the founders daughter? playboy, men only or penthouse penthouse wrong, a or b, well a and b, playboy and men only you had two chances at it mm i went for the wrong one oh your turn oh god that's what i like about you darling you're so intelligent what you've got? you've got three a's have you? what, what is a cricket? a, a male deer, b, a clitoris or c, a picket line in a sex toy factory what's a cricket? yeah that's the answer, that's the question mm a yes you're right phil a male deer's a stag no, says a male deer's a cricket oh i'll know that the next time it comes up in erm so oh, cricket take a break mm that was in this week's and it was a stag i haven't got this week's, not out today no, not until monday, mine's delivered either that it's funny or he can't read the fucking question he likes this one i think yeah i like that, i like the sound of that one, but it's got a few big words in it no it's gotta be this one, i might have to get someone to read out the answers what were a crocodile's testicles and alligator's tail used for ? i can read the first question,a, spices for cooking especial especially dundee cake b , you fucking read that oh,aphrodisiac, aphrodisiac mm aphrodisiacal potions mm or primitive contraceptive de , devices b yeah that's right anyway yeah if i knew what that fucking second word was aphrodisiac i, i wouldn't know it myself, so no aphrodisiacal , cos it's got the a, l in it means something like erm, what it says what was that then? cor who gets turned on with fucking crocodile bollocks? you never know urgh, can you imagine drinking crocodile have you seen it, is it monkey's nuts? er fucking, i tell you, trying could the player to your, your my right that's right, give them one give me one of your cards let them all out give me your cards dear get out the cooking oil i bet he's got four different ones yeah i had to do it that way didn't i? looks like he's choking on a crocodile's bollock there, right which english monarch , i'm always getting the monarch ones,had a had a red hot poker shoved up his royal shoved up his royal backside ? that's, this one's easy this is an easy one here,a, george the fifth, b i'm ready he fucking wasn't erm ready, when that went up was he? or c, edward the second that's that easy , i know that c b it's c oh is it? she does, i was gonna say this one not another a is it? how many concubine king david son of solomon have to the nearest hundred? a, ten, seven words for ea each concubine b, two hundred, a hundred and forty was, sixty concubine or c, a thousand, seven hundred wives or three, three hundred concubine fucking hell he had seven hundred wives fucking hell, fucking hell oh it's a different one once you get to nine you can't have any more letters yeah you've gotta put one at the bottom of the pack eight innit? well that's no good cos you can't spell sex maniac oh more than nine it's when you get to ten you've gotta stop, you've got to put one at the bottom yes, so you can get, once you've got your tenth one, if you can make the word that's it you've won , but if you can't you've got to put one at the bottom mm what's concubine? don't know, get a dictionary dictionary that's fucking smart arse is and all, this one a sexual surrogate will a, have sex with you if he can't find anyone else, all the things nobody else is prepared to do with you sexually, or teach you how to draw you the partner you want ? a c oh teach you how to draw the partner you want not like saying you would of got it after you did get it oh god here we go what? i'm not saying that one cos that's what we were on about earlier oh the or whatever it is here it is concubine oh hang on woman cohabiting with a man to whom she's not married, second wife fucking hell that's er some we had, what was it three hundred and fifty dick must of fell off did you have the answer right or not? yeah i did, didn't i? yeah you got the answer though three hundred concubine and how many fucking wives? seven hundred seven hundred so he had a thousand women a thousand altogether dirty bastard fuck me they had no telly in those days, but that's fucking beyond a joke right ready phil i was gonna read that one out jesus but you'll already get that he must of been totally fucked two a night, fucking shit fucking hell very nice whose penis was said to be as damn near as big as his guitar? a, er eric clapton, b, keith richard or c, jimmy hendricks oh i dunno a i dunno no c c jimmy hendricks the other one was where is the g spot located ? yeah i know that but i heard that er, you didn't know that no i did no, none of us got that one right to start with i said in the fanny no, we never got it right, what were the answers on that? inside the virgin, on the in underside of each breast or behind the knee and that big bogey up your nose oh they were both castrated they were both treated with ex ,ex ,extrotic, no erotic ex , yeah,erotic for homosexual symptoms, they both had vd oh no i've had this one i'm going for b but i yeah it is think it's c it's c anyway yeah, both had vd how did, how did i knew it had they know, how did they know he had vd when he fucking died and they, they never even found, found a fucking body he committed suicide because he found his gas bill how can he have vd if one bollock's in the albert hall? that's baffled phil, that's too complicated for him no got, no i've got all got vd as well, no all got vd as well don't want to find hitler's only got one ball, the other is in the albert hall his mother, the dirty bugger, a little okay, yeah i could of done with that this afternoon when eleanor were there. what? yeah that was really good when stand up there it's a serious day again you should of heard the argument about the poll tax, that was funny what sex aid did the tibetan monk invent? a, the vibrator, b, the french tickler or c, crutchless knickers a monk tibetan monk i suppose that is, a, the vibrator, b, the french tickler or c, crutchless knickers a c b no c, the crutchless knickers oh, dirty bugger no b the french tickler i said b yes you did darling, sorry mm what's a french tickler? it's one of those fucking ticklers innit? it's like a feather thing innit it is innit? on the top, ken dodd used to have one he did a tickling stick, yeah what did ancient roman men hold when swearing an oath ? their penis their testicles their or their wife's tits ? or their wife's tits yeah, their wife's tits their, their testicles catch the pubes right then phil oh swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but ha ha, squeeze, cough give the player to your right one squeeze, cough oh yeah give the player to your right one one of your cards it says underneath just give the player to your right that's shell oh again mm, mm you don't take one back, you don't take one back, just take another one well that takes you two up i suppose julie, been wondering about you lately darling no, i've only got to give you one card wonder why you've been funny about it oh julie what, oh one, two, three four oh god, swap one card with a player to your right right you should have that bugger back, that leaves me with four oh shit oh bloody hell , i suppose you'll give me another one, oh oh my i,how many have i got? two, four she keeps on getting them don't she? what are chinese balls? a device women insert up their fanny to arrange themselves, b, the dry testicles of balls which the chinese consider a great aphrodisiac or c a venereal a venereal disease which makes your balls turn yellow so, ask the question again? what are chinese balls? are they something that a woman inserts they're all fucking yellow aren't they? yeah up them eh? or dry testicles of balls which the chinese consider a great aphrodisiac or a venereal disease which makes your balls turn yellow? i'll go b, but i reckon it's c i go b no it's a a device women insert up their fanny to arrange themselves yeah and when they move they fucking move up and down don't they? i thought it would of been c cos they're yellow over there in't they? mm? is it, i wonder, it was on telly once i don't know where they shove them up what you looking at me for? and then they walk along and when they walk they go ooh nearly killed herself, she stuffed a up her fanny and it stuffed all her reverse the directions of play intest , all her insides up well it would wouldn't it? your go no it's gary's go no, change direction, reverse the direction of play oh it's my go, oh brilliant oh no to shell this is in two different films, yul bryner and julie christie both have sex with the same thing, what is it? a, a rabbit, b, a bookcase or c, a robot b no c, a robot fucking bookcase your go shell you got to read one to gary now fucking bookcase oh your turn to read one to phillip oh god and again, you didn't shuffle these very well gal ah this is to you, cos we've swapped directions again i did shuffle them jul mm there's so many of those oh i, i read this one to you, oh fucking hell in what way is the whale's penis similar to the elephant? it rolls up, it, it's retractable inside the body or it drops off after an orgasm it's retractable inside the body yeah, have an n there are big head i've nearly won ain't i? ooh imagine it dropping off after having an orgasm i said that though didn't i? i said that answer, cos it, it think of the what did you say? no i said a, i said the one that you said, so i got that one right retractable inside the body to you now mate oh theirs just drags along the floor you can have that one, how many you got? i've only got four here what is a lipsy loop? tongue in and around the outside of a lovers mate, an inter-uterine device for contraception or a special type of horse race track? horse race track er loopy loo? mm lipsy loop a c b it's b, bet you would of got this one wouldn't you? what is d p? a, d p's the penis, b, double poke, c, double penetration ? double penetration fucking easy innit? i said you would of got that one probably reverse it to me now probably reverse it again oh that one's not fucking clever is it? oh, i'll just say this one, but it's fucking easy,what were the sex pistols ? that's fucking easy a group yes, a punk group, that was one who edited the, who illus , illustrated presidential report of the commissioners oh i wish i didn't have to fucking read this lot, i haven't no it's not to me it's not can't i just have the other one, cos i got that one right? no i said it was easy anyway the commissions of, of and pornography a, l camp, b, john holmes, c henry kissinger dunno c c no, l camp, a wouldn't of got that would you? you could of let me have the first one no, that one's too easy innit? yeah, well we need to get the cards to win, don't we? that was an m i wanted an m, start with sex man cos i've got the l, got that one, got that one, got that one blade star is famous for her enormous breasts which she displayed while stripping, her affair with the governor of tennessee or her enormous feet ? a mm yeah that one was easy well that, that's wrong actually what's that jul? well it's got here a, is her enormous breasts which she displayed while stripping right, well the answer is a and it's got her affair with, with the governor of louisiana where do they want, oh yeah oh god i've got another one of them yes, sorry it's alright the other one was her affair with the governor of tennessee, i'll get it right in a minute phillip i've got a problem where's my i know you've got a decent hand you fucking arsehole, i've got to ask a question now as well haven't i? at least i'm only two away from getting them no you're not two away from getting all my nine, then i'll just swap in whatever letters i want, pick out another one. who created susie cream cheese? frank zapper, the swiss or pretty polly tights and pantyhose a mm, have another m i haven't got a fucking m my love i gave you one of them last time didn't i? how many have you got now? you got i've only got two i only need an s too and the c well don't tell everybody cos then they'll change what, which famous writer has an obsession with his lover's farts? aargh james joyce who wrote ulysses, kenneth graham who wrote the wind in the willows or c jeffrey archer who wrote cain and abel i'll go for b no it's a wind in the willows, it's pretty obviously it's not gonna be that one that was you the night the doctor came round he, he nearly threw up oh god it was, laid in bed, no joke, his fucking pants blew out that far he went into the toilet, sits down, fucking pebbledashes the bloody place mm, toilets take a thrashing don't they darling? there, ours there the last few days in it, those two being fucking bad you mean you oh thank you darling, thank you for er, erm they'll probably send down er, a needle, have to stop the runs or something fucking hell, i can't say that one to her can i? why not? mm ain't she? yeah, should do oh i like that when, when the censorship was operated, in hollywood, what did the amorous couple do to prevent a film from being censored? a, not show their tongues, b, keep one foot on floor, c, profess love before kissing this one's easy as well, both of them are easy, because i've heard that before b no, that's wrong, a it was, yeah b it was, that's right oh but the other one's how many lips does a woman have? that's fucking easy, one, two, or three four fucking three it's four it's only a choice out of one, two or three shell it's gotta be three that's i actually got that right oh yeah bloody hell gosh sorry about that i've we've, just, when we get home you can count my lips for me depends if you're down all the time or not where is the video porn centre of the east? sorry jul bangkok thailand, manila philippines or a c t australia the philippines b no c australia, that a bit weren't it? ooh fucking hell which animal has the most sperm in one ejaculation? a horse, a mink or a golden hamster a mink a horse has eight billion mm mind you it's not surprising the size of their dicks when they get horny is it? it's the mink that kills the er female innit? after he's made love to her that's why there ain't many left in the country innit? what's that? i've put down that rat races is waddington's and toilet rolls yeah waddington's, cos we've always been saying ain't we? yeah what just to remind you? yeah you wanna go to ostens and get the address of them mm what is a ? a, a yeah for a specific part of the body, b, a sex party or c, a device for separating dogs who get locked together during sex ? b yeah oh, dogs who get locked together during sex one, two, three, four your go phil people won't say that though will they part five, six , for two of them eight you'd part them wouldn't you? you've got eight have you? yeah nearly all a you've got eight? you only need two as anyway don't you? he had to do a swap didn't he with shell? yeah and now i'm left with four mm i thought he had more than that, he was saying he's got sex man do you have any of them shell? only about seven of the buggers oh dear oh how many cards, how many you got juls? three got one more than you alright oh here we go might have which star did er florida, police compel to perform without moving? elvis presley, linda lovelace or don johnson c a a elvis presley oh , wouldn't of got that either here you go jul innit phil? yeah i know whose words are these? it is in sleep that the wild beast in our nature rears up and walks about, mary shelley, alice cooper or plato ? b no c, the other one was a bit daft as well, a bit like that should of swapped with me gal, those two are the only cards i don't need either change direction or reverse the play right ready phil? oh god, give the player to your left one oh shit you should read the last word on this i'm not doing very well here oh you're down to two now right, yeah , i'm still on, down to two now, no you don't have to swap with me don't i? well i've got nine now if you get any more you've got to put one back on the bottom of the pile which duke was denied entrance to a club because he was wearing trousers? duke ellington, the duke of wellington or the duke of edinburgh ? depends on which way he comes duke of ski pants a no b, you could of had the other one actually, hoffmeister is, but i mean that's an easy one innit? lager but i didn't give you it. come on good lord this is it,what did victorian men do to prevent themselves getting aroused while sleeping ? do you remember this one? no a, tie a string around their penis b,sleep with their penis in in a bowl of cold water c, play with themselves before going to sleep ? c answer a and probably c a well i can have that no, and probably c well then they probably fuck and play with themselves anyway they tied their fucking penis no, the answer was tied string around their penis, their penis oh you'll have to try that tonight then phil but they probably played with themselves before they fucking tied the string round, no i think i should have that don't you everybody? says, it says a and no probably i did say a, b look, look no i did say a, c didn't i? it says a yeah and then in, erm things, and probably play, play with them, the other one was erm who slept with naked woman on the, either side of the test with foul of oh come off upside down ghandi here, you've gotta fucking read upside down really have you would of got that, you would of got that i didn't think this game took so long it doesn't cos how many do you need phil? done with mind, you've got to change his nappy yeah mm i need three different letters now, no, if it, if how many letters, i need four if you were , if you were a castratie what would you do for a living? a, look after a harem, b, cut up meat, or c, sing ? a c no you cataramie cut up meat is it cataramie that's what i said? cut meat weren't it? cataratie or something castratie er, or something,casteratie, casteratie what is a common symptom of alcoholism? bigamy forgetting you already have a wife or husband, thinking you have two partners, when you only have one or permanent impudent b yeah got three, three cards now ain't you? yeah what is a humby an erection on public transport, an irritating noise whilst driving a car or humming up the vagina ? hum hum i'll go for c but it's b i would of thought, i'll go for c it's a a is it? it's a, an erection on public transport next time you get out on the bus ask them personally if you've got a humby is that still going? mm righto there's not a lot i can do about that you cut, there's your card ah you are now mate, you only need one do you? no, i ain't got sex, he has nearly sex oh don't worry about it, nor have i i've got c is gary there? phil's to gary fucking hell, these are too easy this is you, you might not get good who said she was a, as pure as er driven slush? julie andrews, olivia newton john tallulah bankhead that's what it says, torn unless you that, unless you wanna say difficult b no, it was the c one who was she? tallulah banks, banks something no, a bit of a shaggy dogs story right your go gal cor wouldn't of fucking got that one what a shaggy dogs story. go on then yeah oh yeah, something ah julie knows that one but you have to the questions in there yeah what is a butterfly kiss? well go on with it then what is a daisy pal? a, having hairy buttocks, b, a prehistoric monster with large fingers or c, an egyptian style of body painting ? c yeah, but er a butterfly kiss,light feather, feathery kissing, kissing during mid or pattering of the skin with eye lashes ? c c yeah i should get two cards for that shouldn't i? ha, oh god i've got the nine have i? yes i have, game innit? no you ain't got the right ones he's got nine i've got his change hands it says till the person change his innit? yeah, but he's not got the right letters yeah, but he's no, but i'm asking he only needs a couple to get them i only need about five what was the philosopher manuelle kans when he died? very happy, very ill he had or he was a virgin ? c yeah that was only a guess, oh shit i don't want that how many letters have you got? all different letters have you got? no, i've got three different letters and one that's the same as another i was new before i met you complete the film title, prick up er, oh start again,prick up your ears, bottom or pantyhose ? ears oh it's ears i think i don't think you'd be very pleased at that no i don't know no, there's only one set e in sex fucking hell this is the one i wanted he wants it as well, you need this one gal? it's getting late mate one o'clock fucking hell it's fucking late mate we've been here twelve hours it's getting late mate yeah there's better than my sandwiches, alright innit dinner? yeah, this one, cos he knows quite a few,thi , few things about films so i won't say that one mm that one i don't actually i'm not very good on films at all in order to still his sexual passions sir frances took an unusual wife, what was unusual about her a, she was made of snow, b, she had no vagina,c, she lived a thousand miles away ? yeah, well the fucking snow, gonna marry fuck all after that i was gonna say a no c a b oh was it? she was made of snow why do you think what was the film one? fucking cold made in fucking oh yeah good one in which film does the dustin hoffman character has sex with both mother and daughter ? actually i didn't fucking know that one you still didn't get it well which, what was the titles then gary? mm which film does he have? dustin hoffman that was yeah, which film does he have sex with mother and midnight cowboy , the graduate, rainman the graduate yes oh, thank you rainman was the last one and he didn't have sex with her yeah tom cruise very good very good, yeah in that bloody film is that all we've yeah i only know that one for being a decent driver what is a chin chin? a, dispute in a chinese marriage, chime, chime rubbing the undersides of chins together or a toast ? b b a toast oh see fucking chin chin what about driving then? fucking, what is a dead policeman? what is a dead policeman? them balls in the road mm, slows traffic slows traffic what's that got to do with sex? slows traffic down what does a dead policeman do or something? slows traffic down fucking it slows, he's dead in't he? he's dead,they all go over him fast then kill the bastard they go don't fucking moan when he's dead does it? what giant sexual organ escapes in woody allen's film everything you've always wanted to know about sex? ah, i've seen that so have i a, a breast, b, a penis or c a pussy yes c a oh have got that either have you ever seen a film called jungle burger? yeah,jun , jungle burger? was it jungle burger with a what is animal farm like? everyone keeps going on about the animal farm here are then phil are you ready? you jane, me shave oh hanging from his fucking dick dick , going along and sing fucking monkey, yeah how long was errol flynn's nob reputed to be to the nearest inch? they say he was a big boy don't they? fifteen inches no fucking hell it's not he's he sat there he's going, no it's not they reckon he was a big boy though don't they? twelve inches or eight inches ? eight, no, no it's not, it's erm ha it's the first one eight no it's twelve it's fucking twelve twelve they reckon he had a big dick didn't he? that was the c did you want that? cos every time he was fucking no robin hood and robin hood, robin hood riding through the twang it was bad fucking balls gal you need this one to match oh god here we go oh dear this time next week lad you'll be at nanny's, you've got to be a good boy oh yeah it's party innit? yeah hope terry and kath will be here who? my cousin, i hope they come down these are both fucking easy, you should get, you should get this anyway you wanna fucking bet? i can't get, i can't get the easy ones, i get the hard ones what happens to a male bee after he mates with the queen? he mates with another male bee, his nob gone he can't say it now his, his nob drops off and then he dies, he has the bees equivalent of a cigarette ? the bee's equivalent of the cigarette b b yeah yeah alright his nob drops off and he dies yeah yeah right i knew that but i didn't know if he did this one, this was other one what has cher got tattooed on her backside? a pink a rose a pink shuff shuffalot, lent or something sheverlay innit a plant? the words son sonny side up sunny yeah, sunny i think or sunny, yeah sunny sunny right,or butterfly with a flower ? butterfly and a plant butterfly and a plant yeah butterfly as well is it? i knew it was a flower, i said rose didn't i? i haven't got that one did i? no you haven't got that one, see, that comes in handy, now you've got ten you've got to get rid of one have you? yeah, you need two you need to have as you don't need an, that e, one of these you can chuck phillip well they swap don't they and er one of them so he knows yeah mainly what he's got one of them mm so that's gotta go on the bottom has it? hang on yeah hang on oh yeah yeah? so you've got sex hang on , yeah so you've got the sex and you've got, you need an n, that's all you need innit? you don't want to say it out loud phil cos if i have to swap one of my cards i'm not gonna give him an n oh you need another s whatever you say then phil your turn to read you haven't got an n give a player to your right one you can have my card what? give a player to your right one you don't swap he, he gives you one there's nothing that i want though for spare, cos i've probably got it tough titties swap your card with the player to your left mm swap one card with the player to your left was it? mm somewhere, swap another card, oh what? you've got to swap one to the left, shell fucking hell you've still got nine though haven't you? yeah he should have cos he swapped one with you ain't he? no he just had to give me one you're not my type darling oh yeah he did i've got two of them, three of them wait, change hands, swap all your cards with the player of your choice oh bloody hell you might as well swap with me i've got the most how many have you got? one, two, three, four, five phil's got hundreds, i've only got four six, seven, eight and mine aren't even how many you've got? five how many you've got? four bloody hell, are you feeling alright? he reckons he's gonna answer more questions than you your go still? yeah swap it now swap your cards, erm you've just swapped your cards too, swap your cards to the player on your left shell oh god, i ain't got no, what no i need two how many cards you've got altogether? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight how long was napoleon's penis measured to be after his death? a, six inches, b, twelve inches or c, one inch ? who's twelve inches one inch shrivel don't it? shrivels when you're dead you soft cow oh does it? oh god phillip if you go in the freezer there's no point when you die, there's no point in me if you go in a freezer and it shrivels so then if you go in the fridge and when you go down the aqua slide you've gotta in spain it shrivels doesn't it dear? sticks out more when you, when you used to go down the beach and do fucking moonies with all the you can't find it come on, we're gonna have to hurry up i'll give my wife a chance thank you dear thank you dear what is a seventy eight? next to friday after seventy nine, one, two, three, four, seventy nine it's not though a victorian tin miner, a prostitute term for a client who's quick to come, a sixty nine for on the side on ? b yeah well done darling that's your winner innit? had to be didn't it? yeah that's all you need now innit? no shit you're wrong i still need two letters what let what's that? i how many cards have you got now, nine innit? yeah yeah , she don't give them away on that got the nine oh who said they were less worried about dying than about sex after death? dave allen, peter sellers, berk and hair who the fuck's berk and hair? i don't know i'll give a guess at him though no a, dave allen, you didn't want that one anyway what was that? a or did you? yeah i did tell you the truth oh did you? mm, i want another a, i don't want any fucking more ms, a turn that other glass drink it, i've got to drink this down, oh i won't do another thing no, i've got can you re-visit? no i don't think so who's nicked my cards then? nobody, you must of taken then with, oh you've put them in your pocket did you? trust us like mad oh yeah you know what i've got anyway your turn phil yeah i do is it for me phil this one is it? yeah ah come on shell would know this one being easy is no good to me though so who said i thought i've got three now ain't i? of losing my virginity as a career move? madonna, clive james or miriam stoppard ? miriam stoppard no madonna madonna yes yeah that's obvious, she's a fucking sex maniac yeah, mm, mm well quite an easy one that what about is it then? that's easy that one as well, fucking hell both of these are easy erm both of these are easy go on what do you need? quite a few good, i don't know which one to go for rave up do you? eh? the condom is a name the condom is named after a, single people living in condominium, b, the man who invented it doctor condom or c the egyptian word for testings b yeah, you've got a, a, er that one as well what is a hermaphrodite or whatever it is? a half man, half women, a man with two penises, a greek goddess of love a greek goddess of love a b half man, half woman yeah oh er something like that's yours have a card oh thank you very much oh dear you've got it oh you've got to put one back now ain't you? get rid of one that you don't want, don't forget there's two as in maniacs i don't have she gets that's alright ain't you? go to school, should of gone to king's head do you need one letter or two letters then? two still how many nipples did anne boleyn have? this one's easy one, two or three ? three yeah that's, that's easy how the hell do you have three nipples? that's easy two on one tit i'd expect i've got to get rid of another card now haven't i? yeah i don't want that one either you're winning now babe, come on oh shit i want this one this is to you, no mm,what is wet wear? adult nappies, water resistant erotic computer games or novel about arti , oh god,a novel about artificial intelligence c b b c, have you got it? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine you counted two instead of one then, i mean one instead of two one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, how many have you got now? have you got it all? no i ain't got sex, i ain't got s, change that's it fucking did get a decent hand you'll go again phil i've got two fucking es that i have bad tempered that, bad tempered person here how many have i got? you don't need this fucking one he could of swapped with me not unless you want four ms if you've got nine you can have he had to swap with the person on his left didn't he? oh yeah , i still need bloody two come on phil you've gotta read a question yeah i've gotta find a question who condemned the war between the sexes as being just a joke? clive james, bonnie and clyde, george orwell just guess clive james wrong c b, george orwell yeah cos you've never heard of him who's the bloke clive james? clive james is the one who does that he knows who clive james is dick shit how comes i get down to four then? change cards to the person to your right, that's you they've got some boots in can i just black one erm go on can i just have a look with like, well like my browny ones really, but which actress has reputed to have eaten garlic before doing love scenes for, with her leading man? a, diana rigg, james bond movie, b, kathleen turner, crimes of passion, c, kim basinger, basinger in eight and a half weeks kim basinger a, diana rigg, james bond movie they've got like erm, laces up the back yeah that you do up, nine ninety nine the sizes though, they usually only have them in about a three and a four don't they? they had four and fives how much were they? nine ninety nine you'll have them back in a minute what you done with them? put them in order for me all you need is oh how sick who described sex as five minutes of squelching? oh my god sid vicious you only have to talk quietly, it comes out so well doesn't it? stephanie stephanie why hello there come on vicki darling come to daddy, good girl, vicki, come on let's dance, come and sit with daddy we'll dance, yeah, come here what happened to the tea towel? what tea towel? it's on top of the fridge can you it's on tidy up some of this then? cos i why it's up on top of the fridge oh clifford , say hello, hello mummy hello mummy, shell and aunty shell and uncle phil hiya uncle phil, no you don't want to eat it hello hello, don't eat it hello hello hi yeah it's er gary yeah, you can't hear nothing you idiot, go on then, okay let go, let go do it again good girl daddy up you get chairman appointed to e i p and to the north yorkshire number three. can i say that the purpose of the e i p is to examine the various issues that have been id identified for discussion. and the panel's role is to report on those issues. er we are not required or intending to look at objections which have been submitted on other aspects of the structure plan. we are simply concerned with those issues which we will be discussing over the next erm eight days or so. the er other aspect i think erm for the purpose of those who were not at the er pre meeting, is to introduce the other panel member, and that miss roz who is a senior inspector, with the planning inspectorate on my right. on my left is the panel secretary mrs clare . and of course you will already be aware of the er program office which is outside just off the corridor. now can i get some of the mechanics out of the way first of all before we before i ask north yorkshire to make a start with their presentation? firstly, i presume that those who want lunch, sandwiches here have already er taken care of their order. i would also like to add that the small meeting room which is off the corridor, opposite the program office, is ava available for you to er relax during the lunch break, and eat your sandwiches in there, rather than bring them into the hall. the other thing i would like to make sure and this applies also to the members of the public as well as those people who are participating in the discussion, could you please make sure that you have registered for the day. er you can do that during the coffee break if you haven't already done so. now some of you will also have seen a form being circulated, asking you to agree that the recordings that are being made of the discussions, can be used as part of a research project. certainly i was asked about this er well before the er e i p er and we agreed that there w well certainly i agreed that i could see nothing wrong with that since it is a cl closed research project, and nothing will be divulged at all er publicly. apart from which of course, that everything we say is being held in public session in any event. the recordings are available for you if you wish or will be available for you if you wish to er improve your memory on what has been said during the discussion periods. i must add that we will not be producing daily summaries, er i think it's a task which is a fairly daunting on and quite frankly, er they will not be produced in the sense at the end that they would not be available at the end of each day. erm as i say, the recordings will be available if you wish to refresh your memory. they will be held during the course of the e i p here, otherwise they will be help by the county council. now i was about to make a comment that er well most of you know who who you are and where you're sitting, er those that have already done that have turned their name tags round so we can see. er one or two others, i would welcome that. we can identify you more readily that way. in terms of progressing or taking part in the discussion, can i suggest that if you want to come in on a particular item, you put your name board up like that, so that we can readily observe it er and equally, our friend who is looking after the microphones can make sure that the vol the volume of your microphone is turned up at the appropriate time. i don't think you wish us to tamper with the microphones at all do you? no, fine. now if i can move on to today's session, we are going to concer concerned ourself obviously with housing land applications and primarily with matter one a. but before before i ask north yorkshire to introduce the matter, can i put h b f on notice that i would like them to follow on from north yorkshire, when they have made their contribution. i would also like to say that er whilst we are going to talk about the housing allocations in the sort of strategic sense, across the county first of all, there are as you will remember er the matters of some disagreements, differences of opinion on demographic issues. i raised this at the pre-meeting and asked that the various participants should have a look at those issues where they had areas of disagreement to see whether or not er they could reconcile those. and i i would like that to be touched on as well. er by north yorkshire. i think s the differences in some cases ar are so large that it's inescapable er that we have a discussion on. the other thing, and this is a case of where the panel bites back as it were. we have laid on the table, two tables, p s o one and p s o two. erm and what we have done in compiling these tables and this has been done by the panel secretary, is to take from the various submissions of the participants, the various housing figures, the the various projections of likely need, of the housing requirement and the effective summary really is in p s o one, but when you look at p s o two er there's a little more detailed work gone into that. now could i ask, if there are any erm matters on there where you have found and error and it's an error of fact, can i just stress that at this stage? erm could you let the panel secretary know er about that this mo sometime this morning, but certainly er in time for our start of the afternoon session. but we felt the tables themselves, could provide a useful background er and in having had them compiled, they point up some rather interesting issues, which we would return to eventually. now if i can pass on and ask mr from north yorkshire, who first of all is going to give you an introduction which in effect which effectively will set the context of alteration number three. and then i presume mr you'll go on to deal with matter a one a. yes that's correct mr , er it will be brief. well ladies and gentlemen, at the beginning of this examination in public, it would probably be helpful to all present and participating, if the county council explained why this alteration is necessary, and the relationship of its content to regional and national guidance. well now in case anyone present is uncertain, erm of the geography of the county, there is a plan displayed er on the board er at the back of the room which w should help er in that circumstance. the county is the largest by area in england, it borders two conurbations to the north and south, it's unique environmentally, both in its natural and built form. having two national parks, two and half areas of outstanding natural beauty, a heritage coast and a wealth of historic towns er and villages. the county council believes that north yorkshire, the character of it, er is a national asset, but there is a view that because the county is large and relatively sparsely populated, there should be almost what appears to be an open door policy for development. we for our part are unaware of any statement of national policy that requires sparsely populated counties to be earmarked for development. well now, the starting position today is that the north yorkshire county structure plan was approved by the secretary of state in november nineteen eighty. together with subsequent alterations in january nineteen eighty seven and august nineteen eighty nine. i think it's fair to say that the secretary of state has accepted that the special character of north yorkshire, require a balance to be struck between environmental protection and development in the county. and we consider that this approach enjoys widespread support in north yorkshire. now district councils and national park committees have approach in pursuit of their own plan making activities and although statutory local planning coverage in the county is still incomplete, the planning process at both county and district level, generally aims to meet the secretary of state's wishes for north yorkshire. as during the examination in public into the first alteration, this e i p will demonstrate again the wide measure of agreement between county and district councils. and we for our part think that this counts for a lot. as to the reasons why this alteration is necessary, the county council thinks there are three reasons, the first is to reflect the wish of government that the development planning system er is up to date, second and more practically, to provide a context for district wide development plan, and third, the urgent need to resolve the future strategic planning direction of greater york. as far as up to date development plans is concerned, this is supported by all sections of the community and need not be dwelt upon. an appropriate conte for context for district wide plans is necessary because the approved structure plan only extends to nineteen ninety six. quite clearly the time horizon needs to be extended to allow structure plan numeric policies to provide clear guidance, not least in respect of a supply of land for housing in the county. district councils are presently making good progress on the development plans and appro and an approved alteration is clearly essential for that process. well now the third factor, greater york, has probably been the single most important planning issue for the county council and the greater york districts over the past ten years. the ingredients i think we well know. a greenbelt agreed in principle by the secretary of state but yet to be defined statutorily, a general absence of consensus on where future development in greater york should be located, and increasing intervention by the secretary of state on planning applications in greater york. the county council and the five greater york district councils began to address the issue in nineteen eighty eight and have spent five years in moving toward this examination in public. that might seem like a long time, but the issues have clearly been complex, and have been progressed as quickly as possible not least through vigourous prodding by the d o e, keen to see approval of a long term development strategy for greater york and more importantly, a statutory definition of the york gre greenbelt. well we think that the d o e would probably be quite pleased with the position that we reached today. during the period since nineteen eighty eight, the greater york authorities have agreed a long term development strategy involving a new settlement contribution. this enabled progress on a york greenbelt local plan which in april nineteen ninety three completed a seven month public enquiry. the county council further accepted that an alteration to the approved structure plan was necessary to legitimize the strategy as the approved structure plan made no provision for it. that has also been progressed as concurrently as possible with the greenbelt local plan. so here we are today, almost at the end of a very long process, having experienced a wide ranging debate about the future of greater york and numerous consultation exercises. the e i p today is probably one of the last pieces in the jigsaw. the completion of which will at long last resolve strategic planning issues in greater york. well of course this process pr could just as easily have been progressed through a full scale review of the structure plan rather than an alteration. as far as a full scale review of the structure plan is concerned, there is no doubt in the county council's mind, that such a full scale review would have significantly extended the process when all the players wish to see rapid progress, particularly to deal with the problems of greater york. in nineteen ninety, the county council did consider the merits of a full scale review as against an alteration. it accepted that while there were arguments for a full scale review, the priority had to progress on an alteration which as quickly as possible, established the principle of a greater york new settlement and progress on the greenbelt local plan. this approach was supported by the regional office of the department of the environment. it is an alteration therefore that is t to be debated at this e i p and its coverage is relatively straightforward, though its content controversial. policy h one provides the numeric provision for dwellings in the county after two thousand and six. policy h two is a new policy which makes provision for a new settlement to help meet the development needs of the greater york area. policies i five and i twelve provide for land for employment in the period up to two thousand and six, while in the t policies, the opportunity is taken to update road schemes in the county. finally, with the support of our district council, the dis the county council seeks to correct a serious omission of strategic planning policies for north yorkshire, the inclusion of policy e two of a policy to control development in the countryside. all the policies have been the subject of consultation, but in the case of policy h two, we've experienced almost five years of continued discussion and debate first of all through the greater york study and then through this alteration. the county council believes that policy h two is essential for the future of the greater york area. the policy even has the distinction of attracting from the regional office of the department of the environment, in the paper to be considered at this e i p, a phrase of mild support. all these efforts do need of course to be assessed against their compliance or otherwise with national and regional guidance. the former in large part embodied in p p g, the latter in regional planning guidance for york and humberside, yet to be issued by the secretary of state. as far as the former is concerned, planning policy guidance, we will have different views. certainly this alteration will ensure the strategic policy in north yorkshire is up to date. and the alteration will address issues clearly appropria appropriate to structure plans. the the policies will be much debated, with quotes from various p p gs, probably selective, being used by both the county council and objectors to justify their position. in any event, p p gs are carefully drafted to ensure that few options are closed off. the county council does feel comfortable about the compliance of its alteration with national planning guidance. as far as regional planning guidance is concerned, there is none. it's quite clear, the needs of sensible planning require progress on development plans. nowhere has this been more evident than in greater york. while p p g twelve provides for a cascade of planning policy, i suggest that only a purist would delay a resolution of the needs of greater york, through the development plan process, in order to await regional planning guidance. in any event, the draft regional advice which has recently been the subject of consultation, does not conflict with this alteration, though leeds and bradford have reservations on the level of housing provision in north yorkshire. we think the secretary of state's present wish for ordered planning will benefit from the discussions at this e i p. there are i suspect, few organizations represented around this table, public or private, that would wish a delay in decision. finally panel, the county council considers that the issues raised in this alteration require early decision and not in two or three years time. it is the county council's responsibility to bring forward proposals to enable progress to be made. the county council has taken those decisions and we think they ought to be debated vigorously and following that discussion, the panel will come to its conclusion. the county council therefore commends this alteration to the panel. that's all i would like to say . you don't wish to pursue in slightly more detail in terms of your introduction,th the issue one a which is the is the housing provision reasonable ? ye yes indeed i do. i was taking a step at a time and yeah well i'm quite happy. okay. can i can i just say before you start mhm. er i should have reminded everybody at the beginning, when you wish when you start to speak, would you please introduce yourself, give your name and who you represent. so we can make absolutely certain on the recording. that's each time. sorry mr . before we start chairman, i wonder whether we can make sure that peter , north yorkshire county council, that all round the table have got the relevant north yorkshire paperwork. and i think the documents that we have put in are n y one,posi various positions er statements, paper n y two, described as population household economic activity rate projections, assumptions and methodology. n y three is a county council commentary on the regional census study, funded by the local authorities and the d o e. n y four is a paper entitled housing growth provision. and then we miss a number erm er and move to n y eleven which is a paper which we have put in which attempts to look at the differences between certainly between the n y c c projections and the h b f projections. and that in fact is headed by erm a summary table erm which attempts to set down on p one piece of paper, where the differences erm erm lie. and i wonder erm we specifically er identified erm the wish to to to address that particular issue. erm and what i would like to do, that paper was written by mr , erm our research officer and perhaps after i've made one or two general remarks, he could give you the flavour erm of of of the difference as we as we see, if that would be acceptable to you? that that that's quite acceptable. so first so if i peter , north yorkshire. if i continue then with some introductory remarks erm on policy h one a and one a, perhaps that would set the scene er for the discussion, then mr will very briefly erm look at the differences as he sees them between the two sets erm of projections. well policy h one addresses the number of dwellings to be provided in the county and the districts and and in in greater york. and quite clearly there's a disagreement on the number of dwellings that the county council proposes. the this happened before, it happened in nineteen eighty seven erm on the first alteration when review er when they were a w wide range er of suggestions er made as to the appropriate level of provision. and to an extent, we ran through this same debate erm at the greenbelt local plan enquiry for two days during september er nineteen ninety two. it seems to be a relatively simple debate, there is either too much development in the views of some participants, erm or there is er too little. others suggest that the county council er is about right. the county council would appear to be somewhere in the middle, based on the range of views that have been submitted to this e i p. at the top of the range we have the house builders federation with and excess of fif fifty thousand dwellings. at the bottom, we have j c with a figure in excess of thirty one thousand dwellings. the county council appear to be somewhere in the middle, er at around forty one thousand er two hundred dwellings. i think i need to say on that, that that should not be taken as the county council sitting on the fence between two opposing er extremes. the county council thinks that its proposed provision is the right approach and it's a balanced approach in line erm with secretary of state's previously e stated wishes. the approach of the county council is based on certain principles, first of all it reflects the decision of the secretary of state on the originally approved structure plan and particularly on the first alteration to the structure plans er in nineteen er eighty seven. and we've summarized in n y four, paragraph twenty one to twenty seven, the main issues erm as we see them er there. and the conclusions appear to be that migration into the county needs to be modified, and secondly, that government policy was then and still is to pursue policies leading to the regeneration of urban areas e around north yorkshire particularly west yorkshire er and cleveland. in cleveland to the north, we have a deprived area er by any standard which is making valiant efforts to make provisions to retain er its own population as part of regenerating county cleveland. in west yorkshire to the south we have similar problems of inner city decline and there as we understand it the authorities wish to cater for their housing needs. the county council accepts the problems and is keen to do all it can to support those authorities er to north and south. but the county council does accept that trends for migration into the county are there and the county council cannot turn off the top to turn off the tap to reclu to preclude any further migration into the county. as a result, the county council accepts the need for a substantial element of development, which is the response to inward migration in the county. and around about sixty percent of the overall provision as we calculate it is to accommodate migration led development in north yorkshire. as far as the debate with leeds and bradford is concerned, there are three districts adjacent to west yorkshire, selby, harrogate and craven. and the difference between us and the west yorkshire authorities, appears to be eighteen hundred dwellings. that doesn't appear to be much erm in terms of quantity in our estimation in terms of the level of provision that leeds and bradford er are providing, but it would create a major problem er in north yorkshire. at the other extreme, there are arguments for reduction in the at the other end of the spectrum there are arguments for reduction in the level er of housing provision proposed er in north yorkshire. the county council does not accept that there should be any further reduction in the amount of housing that is proposed to be =commodat accommodated in the county. the county council quite clearly accepts its regional responsibilities to accommodate a significant degree er of migration led er development. we believe to further reduce erm erm the level of migration led development in north yorkshire er would not be in the best interest of the region as a whole and more importantly, would not be in accord with the general provisions o of the structure plan to accommodate a a significant level er of development. as we see it therefore, the county council is not turning the tap off in respect of migration led development, and it is not being e too generous. we believe that the balanced approach e of the county council e is right, it reflects the views of the secretary of state er in nineteen eighty seven, and we think it's the appropriate way for north yorkshire to develop, bearing in mind the clear environmental constraints er within north yorkshire. well chairman that gives a flavour of the documentation the various documentation that we put in. you did ask erm for us to try and help this examination by giving some indication of the differences between shall we say, the two sides of the debate. er we put in n y eleven which is our attempt er to identify first in a summary page, er and then in a more voluminous paper, with appendices, where the differences lie and the reasons that er that we pursue one course as opposed to another. erm this has been prepared by mr erm and perhaps it would be helpful if he gave you the flavour of it. stuart , north yorkshire. well sir er we have as mr has said, in n y eleven, the commentary er of our o opinions on the situation put forward by the house builders federation. whereas our own er reasoned commentary is in n y two. er n y two paragraph nine er gives us the background to our approach in population projections. we have er framed them to take account of the most recent information available, subject to limitations that staff time limits causes. we have sir excuse me mr . can you all hear? it it shouldn't be necessary either to adjust the microphones, to switch them on or to move them actually. alright carry on. wherever possible sir, we have tested the validity of the individual assumptions against alternative sources of data. er we have looked to supplement national e information by our local knowledge specifically i might instance one er where we have made a survey of the institutions which is one source of er possible difference between er people looking at the situation locally and those from further afield. we have erred i think in several instances to try and give a margin of flexibility er i think if we'd really tried hard to follow a policy of restraint within the assumptions of this model, we could have produced even lower figures than we have. i think we've tried to err being being reasonable. so that was the general approach. er the particular methodology we've used is a population projection model, produced by the institute. the housing and population model. er this is quite commonly accepted as er in use in many places and i think my our colleagues on the other side of the table have been using the same basic modelling methodology. it starts by taking the present population a as the population of the base year, and proceeds to age the population, er adding births and subtracting deaths to get a population in the projection years. er it begins by subtracting the institutional population from the total population in order to get the private household population. once the population levels are calculated in the model, the population is converted in to households using marital status and rates. and once the households are calculated, the final process is to convert the households into dwellings. and to summarize the methodology that we've used, we've set out our in the single sheet in the front of n y eleven, various assumption areas that constitute the use of the model and our choice of the appropriate assumption for each of these areas. so that for instance, er starting with a base population, we've used the registrar general's nineteen ninety one provisional estimates. er this was because er at the time the est that the calculations were made and reported to the committee, these were the most recently available. er other have been able to use more recently er released information,n er namely the registrar general's nineteen ninety one final revised estimates. as you will see from the sheet,small difference in the total population. had the county council been able to use the final figures, the dwelling requirements at the end of the projection period would have been somewhat lower than the figure that we have produced. the conversion of the rate of population to private household population has been accepted that er we use as everybody has used, the county council's estimate of the institutional population. so this does not appear as a technical difference. sorry would you re would you repeat that. you say there is no difference of opinion on that one now. on on the level of the institutional yeah. population. there is a difference of opinion in the effect on the number of households produced by the way that the military yeah. population in married quarters is treated. yes i appreciate that. yes. but you haven't highlighted that i haven't highlighted that as an area of difference . n n no no. cou co could i ask you and try to short circuit actually the presentation if you if you if you don't mind, to actually concentrate on those issue items where there are these significant differences which which you which you mentioned. well the largest difference er from the sheet is in the death statistics. and er we will maintain that we've used the appropriate statistics from the office of population censuses and surveys and the registrar general's er and erm our colleagues have made an error is our opinion on er the er death statistics that they've used in their calculations of the model in our opinion. in that they have not taken the correct figures. i can't explain the reasons why . our our figures we maintain are the correct ones. yeah i mean i i would assume that there must be agreed death rates which everybody would accept as as as being applicable in projecting population . we would have said we would have thought that too sir but er it appears that er well i i think i'll wait for h b f to come back on that one. but yo the figure the the figure which you mentioned yeah . can can i just add sir o one point i i in my in my preamble i said that we were sometimes able from a local point of view to take into account information locally that perhaps you wouldn't have got from further afield. er within the model, there is the provision to er not take the date which is issued with the model, but to allow for local correction factors and it er maybe that we've got the locally correct death statistics in and our colleagues haven't got the local corrections. well we'll we'll we'll come back to that one later one but if you just carry on talking through the various er items where there is these there are these significant differences. well that is the er most significant difference sir. er a difference has er appeared in concealed households, at three thousand . the county council maintains that er the project methodology takes account of all classes of households er within the methodology itself. and so there does not need to be a separate provision made for numbers of concealed households. er our understanding is that er our colleagues the other side of the table wish to reduce the number of consumer households from the level it was at the nineteen ninety one census, which is the figure here, three one seven to zero. eliminating the numbers of concealed households, and therefore the number of dwellings to be provided to cater for that. er and we feel that that would be er unrealistic but within the modelling context, we don't think that it needs to be separately taken into account. there are households concealed households at the beginning of the period in our projections, there are households at the end of the period which are also concealed. this we feel matches the real world situation, where er the poor being always with us, there will always be people who while wishing to have accommodation . so that is an area of er significant difference. the next er most important er in terms of of erm numbers is er migration levels. h here we we have two categories of of areas of difference. there is the technical basis on the one hand, and there is a policy er er area. i think then there's a catchphrase, environmental discounts. and i think these phrases appear in the text. as far as the technical points are concerned er there is the question, which source of data should be used to quantify migration. and over how long a period should the migration be taken. the county council has used the national health service's central record of patient re-registrations as its principle source of for migration data and has chosen an eight year period to measure the trend. er our colleagues i think have chosen a different period trend. i think it's a ten year period they've taken and th the er source is as much the a sort of a residual figure that comes from the registrar general's mid year estimates,nineteen ninety one. as against the nineteen eighty one estimates. deducting actual change and ending up with . we maintain that this balance not only includes migration but includes other adjustments. so the figures for migration are not necessarily purely migration figures and we are er we don't dispute the length of the trend to take the ten years. ten years as it happens is not a lot different to eight years. the choice of the time period for migration is very important. if we had taken the most recent trend, it would have been over the last three years. this is shown er in the appendix to n y two. appendix five. which is a table showing annual average migration figures for the years nineteen eighty five to nineteen ninety two. appendix five of n y two. there you'll see there is an eight year trend, the mean of which is just under five thousand. from which we make a deduction and i'll come back to that deduction in a moment if i may sir. if one took just the last three years, the annual average migration figure would be a little under three thousand three hundred. had we used this three thousand three hundred figure as the annual migration, then the housing requirement figures come out of the projection rather then two thousand and six, would have been some ten thousand fewer. so the choice of the length of the trend is er very important. the source is important and er how you deal with the source. er i mentioned that we have made an allowance for students in this migration. er this is not to say, i must emphasize that we have discounted students in this migration assessment. what we have done is to discount excess students. er there is a technical report that has examined this sort of information erm for the year nineteen eighty one nineteen eighty eighty one, specifically for this county. er the research found that there were three hundred or so students who registered with the health service but didn't re-register or didn't leave. so that that was a a a fact that er yeah. does this make a significant difference to the the hous household requirement ? yes one o one of the elements that goes towards the four thousand four hundred yeah. difference in migration. er i don't think i couldn't at this moment in time, give you the components no. of of which of these four thousand four hundred is d due to the time period which is due to the source which is due to the er student er excess student discount. so that is a significant er difference sir between e our calibrations of the model and others. yeah. other differences are smaller in scale as you will see, there is a difference in er vacant dwellings,the county council er takes the view that er yes i i i yeah sorry to interrupt, i mean i follow the arguments you've used within the document but i the figure which the h h b f have attributed to vacant dwellings for example is just under two thousand five hundred. or is this th is this an adjusted figure now? having had the discussion between the two parties. is it six hundred ? er we have had er recent correspondence with the h b f and er my e colleague mrs long can give you the the detail of that. we would we would er revise the difference figure on the basis of that conversation. so d d d the the six thousand the six hundred does not really apply any more . well no well i i'll i'll come back to that issue with with h b f but er but but it it is not simple as in any of these matters er in that the change in the vacant dwellings difference here also has a consequential figure for dwellings different at the end. because of what the er effect is in the calculations and again we we could go into that in some detail if wanted to. no i'm i'm trying to avoid too much detail if i can. what i'm trying to to establish in in a fairly simplified form actually, are the areas of difference and whether some of those are still capable of being reconciled, because of the way in which you a you know the the the different parties may have made different approaches but in fact you might come to an agreement about that. but there are other ar areas where in fact you may simply agree to disagree. for various reasons. mm. well i think having had a meeting with the er house builders er representatives earlier on, this table of differences now represents the differences that there are still remaining. yeah right. before the h b f respond and i appreciate they want to respond to what mr said. can i say in relation to what mr has said mr . . sorry i'm er mr has er our aim must be to identify what really matters. technical experts will always disagree, erm there was a time when i too would claim to be one of them. but i'm not here to play that role. we must please be clear about those factors which actually matter, always bearing in mind that it is for the county council in the first instance and perhaps for the panel in the second instance, to take a decision about the suppression of past migration trends. in other words not to provide for a continuing level of migration as it has been in the past. in that context, it seems to me that some of the differences between the technical experts pale into insignificance and therefore do net deserve our spending any great time upon them. there are other matters however, which seem to me to be much more significant in statistical terms and in relation to the total level of provision mm. which the county propose. can we please concentrate on those that are truly significant? mr i hope that hasn't cleared anything of what you wanted to say. thank you. right, thank you very much. er roy , house builders federation. i'll try my best to to respond to most of what we've already heard this morning. erm, the basic stance of the er er of the federation is that we erm make use of the latest information. we regard that as being consistent with government policy, as set out in p p g twelve. but it is in our view, government policy to provide for development needs. consistent within a framework of regional guidance. we have as mr said already this morning, we have no regional guidance. erm and his claim that in fact the regional draft regional guidance er that has emerged is consistent with this alteration, is not really surprising since the same parties drew up the same document. . so our purpose here and i would echo er what miss has just said, is essentially to take a view about migration. that is the essential component erm which er will determine e effectively the strategic policy which will apply to this county. it's interesting that despite all that's been said about migration and i'll come back to it, but we actually start, the county and ourselves, from the same point, more or less, within about four four dwelling i think. erm and but it's after that that we we we differ a bit. however as far as the basic strategy is concerned of this particular alteration, it includes for the first time, conversions. and that is a fundamental change to the previous strategy. and it amounts to, in effect a twelve point five percent decrease in housing provision. at a time when household formation rates suggest we should be going in the opposite direction, simply to stand still. this is a fundamental change of strategy without doubt. i don't want to hold up this alteration, and i, like mr , don't want to wait three years for a decision. but i would say to you that such a fundamental change of strategy, would normally have its proper place in a replacement plan, rather than an alteration. so how do some of our differences come about. we have a number of technical differences which are essentially differences about the composition of the population and its natural change. and we would say that that difference amounts to sixteen hundred dwellings. we have a base dwelling difference, although in view of your remarks, that may well pale into insignificance. but nevertheless, it is a matter of fact that there is a difference of seven hundred and fifty dwellings, in the base dwellings that we've used. we do have a difference in vacancies. er whereas the county council have sought to re to er keep vacancies constant, we have said that it is reasonable to seek to plan to keep second homes etcetera as a constant number but what i would term normal vacancies, can be reasonably be expected to go up to maintain the same proportion. that does i think form a significant element because it makes a difference of nearly two and a half thousand dwellings. perhaps i could intervene and try to establish a view on vacancies, so at least we can get one element of out mm. of the debate out of the way. and perhaps miss and d o e may have a view to contribute too. but if i can put my thinking erm on the floor first, it seems to me that vacant normal vacancies as mr has described them, are a function of people moving from one house to another. and it seems to me there is no reason to suppose that because there are more houses, the propensity to move from one house to another declines. perhaps before gentleman of the county council whose name i still can't see comes in, miss may wish to say something. i think in this day and age, there is probably a greater propensity to move and consequently there may well be an increased erm amount of vacancies occurring and that was why in our statement, we actually increased the number of vacancies, but i think that is a function of the number of houses on offer at the time. mm. h how in that context, does the county council defend its position mr you're not mrs , you're mr thank you. mr will yes malcolm , county council. i think our concern is that the vacancy rate erm in the census indicates that some seven point one percent of the the properties in the county are vacant at er at that time. we are very concerned that in in making provision for housing through to the year two thousand and six, we should not be making provision for that level of vacancy rate, which seems to us to be artificially high when compared with the the national figures. and indeed we hear from the d o e that they have a figure in their paper of something like five and a half percent. the figure that we have come up with in fact is derived by holding constant the numbers rather than the rate of vacant dwellings through to the year two thousand and six, which implies that by the year two thousand six, we'd have would have a vacancy rate of six point two percent or or thereabouts. which is still substantially higher than the national figure, and substantially higher than the figure being proposed by the department of the environment for north yorkshire. can you split that six point two percent between the the second homes etcetera and the normal vacancies? erm i don't have the figures off hand but i er we could provide those figures. because it presupposes, if one a assumes that the second homes etcetera remain constant. it presupposes a reduction in the rate of normal vacancies. i i th would prefer to look at the vacant dwellings as a single entity rather than necessarily splitting them down between the the the various types. my question still remains the same then. does it not presuppose a reduction in the rate of all vacancies? that's right, yes, from seven point one to six point two percent over the period through to two thousand and six. if you accept that that derives from the propensity to move, is it sensible to make that assumption? but that is only one of the factors in north yorkshire that is influencing the vacancy rate. we do have a very large proportion of holiday accommodation and second homes, which are concentrated in certain parts of the county. and we're concerned that this figure of seven point one percent, is in fact artificially inflating the housing requirement through to two thousand and six. i had hoped this would be a short point. could i ask mhm. our figure discounted second homes. our figure of the vacancy assumptions is the number of vacant dwellings. yes your rate was something like five and a half percent if i remember rightly, yes yes. yes. no whereas that's right yes, but it has takes no takes no account of second homes. h b f have gone for four point four five percent. yes. but leaving the second homes as a constant figure and separate from is that right? i can't quite see the reason for discounting second homes altogether as the d o e have done. they are a factor in the the housing market in north yorkshire and i think that we have to take those into account when we are looking at vacancy rates through to two thousand and six. and i think the overall figure that we've had produced, which is around the six point two percent, is still a very substantial level of vacant dwellings within the county. and i'm in no doubt that that will allow for the operation of a housing market, through movements er population and so forth. what can the county council do first of all to stop people moving house and secondly, to stop people stop d to prevent any change in the number and distribution of second homes? the county council isn't actually trying to control who occupies houses and what purpose they occupy them. what we're concerned with is the amount of land that or the amo number of dwellings that we are providing, through the structure plan, through local plans for the future. er we're not seeking to control individual occupancy, that is not possible through the planning system. but the implication of a declining rate of vacancies, is that something will stop people moving house. no i i'm not sure it necessarily will stop people moving house, what we're talking about is a level of provision for vacancy rates which is still well above national rates. is that including your second homes though? that is including second homes yes . yes. but it mr , i'd hoped it would be a short point. obviously we're not going to reach agreement on that , but do you want to come back on vacancies. or or indeed does mr want to come in on vacancies? i could. steven from . i think inadvertently, mr has has slightly muddied the waters, by reintroducing second homes. i think that discussion is more usefully conducted in terms of what you called normal vacancies. and this is the basis on which the d o e have put in their figure, it's the basis on which we have put in a figure for vacant dwellings, and also the h b f. and all of us as it were, set aside as a block, all the second homes as holiday homes and say, those are as it were , outside this enquiry, we'll leave them there. they don't even enter into the projections we have done at all. because they're a constant number, it doesn't arise. i think the issue as you rightly as miss rightly put it, is the normal vacancy rate and is there any reason to suppose as the county council must be supposing, that this shrinks to a degree. and when i say the vacancy rate, i mean a percentage rather than a number. and i don't see any mechanism whereby that production can be engineered, or indeed any intention by the county council to engineer such a reduction. in which case i would see that the sensible thing to do, which is what we have done, is to assume that the current vacancy rate stays the same as a percentage and that with a larger dwelling stock, results in some additional vacant dwellings. i i can't say any more than that. erm that is exactly our point of view. sorry can i just come back to mr 's point, where you say, that the current rate of vacancy. are you talking about the current rate as it prevails or we're told it prevails ion north yorkshire, or are you looking at a figure which is somewhat nearer the national average or the figure which mr 's organization have chosen. steven ,. we have sought to use the rate for the percentage for north yorkshire, as at the nineteen ninety one census. i interrupted mr . right, er thank you very much. roy , house builders federation. erm so moving on, apart from the difference in in in vacancies, we then have erm a difference related to concealed households. erm mr has explained the view which is taken been taken by by north yorkshire. our view is that we should seek to accommodate concealed households. concealed households are people who exist currently within the county. whether or not further concealed households are formed over the next fifteen years, seems to me to be an irrelevance. it it should be the purpose of the planning authorities to seek to house its people. by ignoring concealed households, it is in fact not seeking to house its people, and is in fact not doing what in fact it says it should be doing within the explanatory memorandum. i suspect after the prime minister's speech last night, it's no longer political correct to talk about single parents. if he's back to basics, but is it realistic to suggest that there will that all concealed households will disappear? i am er it it may or may not be realistic to suggest that all concealed households will disappear. i did say that it's probable that concealed households will be formed over the fifteen year period. so they will continue to arise, but i think that it is right to plan to accommodate the ones that you know about. and the ones that we know about at the moment are the ones revealed from the census. the information from the department of the environment's nineteen eight nine based household projections, suggests that in fact there is a slightly larger number possibly erm in in in the round and that is five thousand dwellings as opposed to the three thousand one hundred and seventy we're seeking to include. and so to take what we would describe as a reasonable view on this, we say that if you know from evidence there are a number of concealed households, you should seek to accommodate them. and it is that is essentially the bottom line. erm one could plan to accommodate more on the chance that they will arise, but we're not putting that forward. erm the then the seems to us the final er difference between ourselves and the er county council, is the issue of migration and what's already been referred to as environmental discounts. i'm sure we'll come on to discuss the nature and extent of those environmental discounts later. erm but what we would say at this stage, is that there doesn't seem any rationale behind the discounts that have been applied by by the county council, indeed we have a situation in hambleton district, where there is a seventy percent discount, erm which doesn't seem to us to have been explained or justified. erm we have put forward an alternative er mechanism for environmental discounts and er i can say by at this stage, by reference to the erm critique that has taken place of that of those environmental discounts in n y eleven, that erm, while we wouldn't go along with making anywhere near the the additions that are suggested there, erm it may be that it would be sensible to make a further discount in respect of the heritage coast. so long as that does not include whitby and scarborough and er any settlements to the west of the what is essentially the coast road. erm it may be that it it is sensible to make that discount and would only ap apply to scarborough dis district, but as for the rest of the additional elements of er environmental discount that should be applied, i can't see why you should apply a discount in relation to agricultural land. i'm not aware we've got people living physically on agricultural land at the moment, they are fields as far as i know. er and it would be just as sensible to make a discount for industrial land on that basis. i don't see why you should make a discount in respect of greenbelts. it is a matter of fact that greenbelts simply displace people around. indeed the york greenbelt is entirely designed to do that. displace people from york to er according to this structure plan alteration, partly to a new settlement on the outside of the greenbelt. and indeed within the greenbelt there are a number of settlements which we are sitting in one at the moment. er which er have housing proposals within them and er to just make an average for the discount for the whole of the relevant parish, would be to overstate that particular case. erm so we have we have er a a a a major difference there. erm but our summary really would be that if one followed the county councils proposals, this county would end up with a severe housing shortage. and that will actually drive people away from north yorkshire. it won't actually stop people coming in to north yorkshire. we don't have passports in this country, although as a long-standing yorkshireman, i've always thought we should have them with lancashire, but that's another issue. erm but we don't and in fact what will happen in a housing shortage is that in migrants will be able to buy their way in. to some extent, the government's policy of affordable housing will enable an element of affordable housing to be provided, but it won't satisfy the needs of either people who are currently on the bottom of the housing rung and seeking to move up, nor will h help people who might be seeking to afford to c to come in as first time buyers as opposed to people who are otherwise er some other arrangement through an affordable housing provider. i have circulated round this morning, three er sheets which which help demonstrate that particular point. the second sheet which is headed commitments, is a list which is derived from er the statements made by the different authorities, er about the number of dwellings which are already permitted in one form or another. er within their area. and we can see there that there are some nearly thirty three and a half thousand dwellings already committed. and having looked at identified needs for affordable housing, within again various statements made by the local authorities and compared those with the commitments that are left, in other words the places where they they could reasonably be found, we get some fairly large percentages of affordable housing requirement le on on on the remaining land. and on the front sheet o entitled affordable housing, we see there that in the case of hambleton we'd be looking at forty one percent, of the remaining dwellings being unaffordable being affordable houses, down to york where it goes up to ninety percent. that is on the basis of the proposals put forward by the county council. on the other hand, if the panel were to accept the figures which we are putting forward, you can see from the s the t table at the bottom of the page, those proportions come back to down to much more reasonable amounts. and we would say that that is much more likely to be achieved. in short, we are the people who are looking after the interests of the north yorkshire people. and providing for their needs. similarly,i have also circulated a table entitled environmental capacity, where i have looked at what is the difference in percentage land-take terms, between the proposals of the county council and the proposals of the federation. we can see from that table that even on unconstrained land, we are talking about a difference of point one nine percent of land take. i would suggest to you that this must be an extraordinarily sens environmentally sensitive county if it cannot afford over fifteen years, to take an extra point one nine percent of its unconstrained land into development. and if by doing so it was to ensure that people who are already resident in this area are driven, this would be a totally inadequate response to the needs of the people of north yorkshire. if we convert your nought point one nine percent into hectares we're talking about roughly five hundred, is that right? erm if i if i take yes yes yes two one four o from yes. one six four eight. yes. that erm sorry. just one final point if i may about er er about about migration. which i'll just pick up on as a as as a final point. erm mr introduced the the the the the prospect that erm if they'd have taken migration over the last three years, it would have been a much reduced figure. oh yes, of course it was, the last three years have been a recession, what else would you expect. we don't think it is sensible to plan for a recession. and indeed, given the number of dwellings that are proposed by the county council, we see from completion rates that in fact those figures, broadly compare to the sort of completion rates we've had through the recession. this then is essentially as we see it, a plan for the recession. it is not a plan for the needs of the people of north yorkshire. and indeed, in efforts to des to also confirm our reasonableness in the figure that we've put forward, despite the fact that it's much higher than the counties, i have included in my submission, paragraph thirty nine, that there are a number of factors we could have taken into account, but haven't have chosen not to do so, er which would have in fact upped the dwelling requirement. and one of them to some extent has has has already been discussed. which was which was that we didn't take the whole of the vacant dwellings, we only took a part, even though we are not aware of any planning policy that will restrict occupation of dwellings as second homes. thank you. mr mr , thank you for that, er er so we're we're still talking in terms of a difference of just over twelve thousand dwellings between yourselves and the county. indeed. er at the risk of upsetting everybody again, can i go back to the point which has been made by north yorkshire on this summary sheet here. to the apparent difference between yourselves and them on the death statistics. yeah. i mean is this real or is it a red herring, which? well i think it's only part of the picture, that is one element of er the whole make up of er of the population structure. and therefore, it takes one element and er it it erm it it seeks to highlight that particular element. i would also say that in fact er in in the paper that the number of deaths is converted into houses by app application of a factor of one point seven. which i understand is the pensioner h er occupancy rate. i i in other words, all the extra deaths are going to occur only in pensioners? that may be very good news for the people of south yorkshire who are below the age of sixty five, but i don't think it's realistic. erm and so er i think that that is a slightly over-exaggerated figure anyway, and should be more like four thousand one hundred dwellings, even on this basis. but that said, erm what what it what the position is, er i is that we have put into the model well we haven't put it into the model because it was given to us a part of the model and possibly by now north yorkshire may have the revised model, no they haven't yet. but erm and essentially, the difference is this, if i can illustrate it by means of reference to appendix four in er n y two of o o of north yorkshire. it seems to me from looking at the figures within the projections that what north yorkshire are are planning is that we'll have a return to that widening black area that's part of that particular diagram. what we are saying, and this is as a result of figures which are supplied by o p c s is that we are broadly saying that we will remain in this narrow band towards the end. mm. and that essentially is the difference. and erm since we're both to some extent, crystal ball gazing, i suggest it's a matter of choice which to believe is most likely. thank you. mr . steven ,. i think i can help you on the particular limited point of deaths and their effect. erm you asked some while ago whether it shouldn't be possible at least to have a an agreed view on how many people are dying as it were. but what is more difficult is to have an agreed view on how many people will die and at what rate, in the year two thousand and one and beyond. erm i have laid round the table this morning, and i hope you have it, a single sheet of paper which sets out the component differences between the projections and the county council. i only want to speak at this juncture on the element of that which is due to lower mortality as i call it, i e deaths and this is addressed in paragraph five and in the table at the bottom which shows an effect of about two thousand er extra households, due to lower mortality rate assumptions in our projections. lower that is than the county council. the difference arises essentially from an improvement which is now evident in the latest national projections. and those date from a nineteen ninety one base, as compared to what was being forecast from the nineteen eighty nine. thank you. any view from the county on that point? mrs . mrs , north yorkshire county council. i think one point that seems to have bis been missed by the h b f or is the fact that the population is growing. i too do have increased erm life expectancy for the very elderly, in our figures, the number of eighty five increased by sixty percent. we are not trying to say that the number of deaths are going to increases substantially so that the population is not growing. within the sorry within the h b f projections, the populations grows by seventy thousand persons, so even though we have increased death statistics, mortality statistics where life expectancy is going to increase, by applying those onto a higher population you're naturally going to have more deaths. i don't see how that you can possible reduce the number of deaths within the county, or even maintain it at the same level. with this sort of growth. and migration is restricted to the very young, we do have high levels of migration by those in retirement age groups. can i add a supplementary er c coming back er. i think it's very instructive that er h b f didn't deny that they'd made a mistake on this number and just talking about old people, er the fact is that eighty five percent of deaths in the county occur to people aged over sixty five. and so er there is a very strong correlation between er age and death unfortunately. and we're not trying to er be er unduly morbid about this, but recognize the facts of life. er the er narrow band that is referred to in eighty nine, nineteen ninety one between births and deaths. we would be very pleased to see it continue to narrow, indeed we we we we we wouldn't wish to to see it revert, but that again is a demographic fact. er not because of the number of deaths is going to vary sig very significantly as mrs said, we we are allowing it to improve over time gradually. but it's a factor because of the births is more volatile. and the numbers of births will reduce and so there will be more deaths. er m more of a natural change. i i i roy , house builders federation. i i think i must come back with the fact that i haven't denied we made made a mistake. i haven't confirmed it either. erm the simple fact is that the factors that have gone into the model that which we have used, have been the nineteen ninety one based fertility, mortality and infant mortality rates. and have been the nineteen ninety one based,correc local correction factors. the fact that it gives a different result from the ones that north yorkshire have used, certainly they've used the neight eight nineteen eighty nine based fertility, mortality, infant mortality rates. i'm not sure what local correction factor they've used. i thought from the discussion we had a month or so ago, that they've used the eighty three based correction factors, but it maybe something else because the description this morning was given it was some lo other local one. but nevertheless it's a different one. the fact of the matter is we've used different factors. i used ones supplied which come effec effectively from government sources. they have used some other. they are different, but they're not necessarily right or wrong. mrs , north yorkshire county council. the actual local correction factors that are supplied by the institute are calculated by themselves. they do look at the statistics the government statistics for fertility and mortality, but they have then the ability to amend, to adjust to local erm to to match up with local information. but they are supplied by the institute and not the government. i don't want to be picky about this but but i mean they are government based. it's a comparison of of what's happening in the county in terms of registrations of births and deaths, and what's happening nationally. so of course they're based on national figures. i i have a i have a nasty suspicion that we could go on all day like this if if i allowed it to happen. er er i d i don't think that we as a panel are necessarily going to ever and and and it may not be our role in fact to do so, to come to a judgement on it, but i would have thought as a matter of common sense, and common agreement, that there should be some er way in which the various parties would come together on the basic demographic statistics and would certainly accept that certain basic projections should be used i in looking forward. but before i move on to suggest we have a break for coffee, is there anyone else would like to pick up any points on the demographic matters that we've been discussing, leaving aside the discussions on migration. come back to that later on. leeds, mr from leeds. yes, ed from leeds city council. yes chair i i'd like to raise a question. is it legitimate for north yorkshire to include environmental discounts in their calculation? and i say that because as mr touched on in his introduction, the west yorkshire districts are set a methodology for the definition of their housing requirement, buy r p g two. strategic guidance for west yorkshire. now that guidance does not entitle the west yorkshire districts to introduce environmental constraints the calculation of their housing requirement. necessarily therefore, if north yorkshire proceed with environmental constraints applying in their county as a whole, the proper planning of the region is being frustrated because somebody is not being planned for. mr . can i just clarify er this point that the concept of environmental discounts is not one that's been pursued by the county council, though the secretary of state quite clearly requires local to take into account environmental consideration. environmental discounts and our comments on those are in relation to a concept, i think introduced largely by er the house builders federation. and our comments are to what you should or should not include erm as an environmental discount. so it's not our concept, we're not applying environmental discounts. the county council's position is that er it has taken on board, environmental considerations. i think if you look at the house builder's federation's papers, there you will see, their idea of environmental discount. i think environmental discount and environmental considerations are factors which we'll come back to in in looking at the migration rates, so you're going to have another shot at this one. mr . yes thank you chair. erm it's really just coming back on the issue of concealed household earlier. er notice from the york city council's submission, there is a difference in opinion between ourselves and the county on the calculation of housing requirement for the city of york. that what is discussing this morning, a relatively minor difference in terms of numbers. now it does in fact arise from this issue of concealed households. erm i think it is one of the important that should be emphasized. i think as mr did say, erm the issue of affordable housing is a very real one. the government guidance er in p g three makes it very clear now that it's an issue we do have to address and if we don't for land requirement. we live in urban areas as well as rural areas. erm . and so we have considered that an additional should be made in the city of york to take account of a policy objective of reducing the level of concealed and sharing households. thank you for that. can i just finish this this this session with one question back to north yorkshire because i think you said, within your sorry within your sorry i'll come back to you, within your projections you actually take account of concealed households. they are identified . true or false? false. they are identified within the census. yes. the additional dwellings are not added on to eliminate the problem. however as the actual number of dwellings increased, the proportion of those living in concealed households does actually reduce. right okay. i understand now what you're saying. mr . steven ,. two small points sir still on these technicalities of projections. and the first is to pick up on concealed households and just to add to the points that have already been made that erm neither the house builders federation nor ourselves are assuming that all be housed, but the projected number is five thousand whereas we're housing three thousand odd of them. but also to say that elsewhere in this region, planning is on a basis that all consumer households will be housed. west yorkshire and south yorkshire strategic guidance housing numbers include all concealed households. so if we are to have a consistent regional planning framework, that should be weighed in the balance as to whether they're taken into account in north yorkshire. i also want to to actually draw your attention to one item on household rates. you should of seen he has decorated the school, i said who? you really like christmas don't you john?, he said yes, the hall way you cannot move in the hall way, it is dripping with decorations, right, the phone goes this morning, hop of daisy, goes to answer it, santa's grotto he says, a member of the public phoning to say that they found a child's bag in the high street. what? oh dear. what do you do with a man like that? how what, how it's a child really isn't it? i didn't get that, say that again. because he's got so much decorations up, he answers a funny he's in murphy's decorating shop in the right he's been doing it for twenty years picks up the phone not knowing who it is and says santa's grotto it is funny isn't it? but as mummy says it's not what a respectable headmaster is supposed to do is it? he laugh it. well, i tell you something all the children in my class have got perfect as near as your gonna get. he just hasn't got a clue, apparently he said last night he never thought it would be so hard, he had a confession with liz or something, never thought it would be so hard and he's really struggled this year, really, really hard work, nothing like being a deputy which to me he's an idiot if he didn't know that, he's feeling guilty about the phone bill, but hasn't got any money at all for anything but then i, i, it's unfortunate that you had your first i mean someone who had no experience of headmastership, head, head teachers, i mean all the head teachers i should think are in financial problems this year cos it's really there first full year yeah isn't it?, right, but i mean, he has, he's had other problems to compound it and distract it yeah and he's made it probably an even worse hash than, than the average teacher he just can't manage money, full stop. i mean he's a, he's got to a, he's got to be a claim all across the whole sitting is that the, that their budgeting is not enough is it? yeah, but mum, mum what? why do these things, you've done it, why library paul it is. the books have been stolen at the rate of twenty or thirty a day. that's his fault, is it?, it's the teachers fault is that really true or is that an exaggeration? look at the shelves think about it, is it twenty or thirty a day? yes, he came into the hall the other day and he tipped out well he only asked , i mean that's obvious that he can say children he tipped out a pile of library tickets onto the thing and it was, it was a, it was, must of been, it was hundreds yeah, what and he said this is a month, this was a month after the end of term,this, can't find books for any of these tickets, they're not in any children's well he borrowed the books for didn't he? no. he checked, who checked up they're not found in the library, all the loose tickets, a mountain of them, surely you just take the tickets out and shut the book. but then if it's twenty or thirty it stands to reason that's probably about the same household the same children stealing them yeah every day, well why yeah don't you clamped down on these kids? well, we've tried. when a child came in this morning, the one i, that we accused of taking that out, he said he didn't take it, i went on and on and on, he said he didn't take it, i said i want a letter from your father to say that you bought it then, that doesn't mean anything, the father could lie. why did you ask for? the point is you don't do these children any service by letting them getting away with it, cos they think they can get away with it. what can you do? you can't prove they did it it does sound quite good if you give them, i suppose for math tuition probably sat twenty five to . why you're doing this christmas, it may be my last, john said what do you mean, i said well, i don't know if i'm going to be in a classroom this time next year, i mean, i really enjoy christmas with the children, fifteen years since i've done it, i've forgotten how i enjoyed myself. then what did he say? why? they were testing those big signs on the motorway today yeah , yeah said this is a test ignore, this is a test and there was sort of like keying in typing on them? yeah. what will it be able to tell you then? well anything, any message i suppose, you can key in any message you want what mr leave at junction forty yeah i should imagine so but they wouldn't, but they could. gosh, posh, cosh, cough, have you seen this headline? gosh, posh, cosh, cough dad what? want to look at these what's he to me know?, what? what, remember, surely your going to be well i, i, don't think no, no, there not gazing up is it really, i mean is, its so huge you couldn't miss them have you seen this paul?, gosh, posh, cosh, cough gosh, posh posh cosh your pathetic , and what do these make it, cough you don't see the, the tabloid there, i read those, the headlines are hilarious, the headlines i think the manager who runs the headlines in the sun is more funny than it all together. that is it, what's that one that , gosh, posh, cosh, cough, gosh, posh, cosh, gosh posh, cosh, gosh come on hurry up, homework. why they, dad, dad, why they posh in the because that it doesn't make sense, does it? is at liverpool hey, can you speak any italian yet? yeah. go on then. have you got your italianers your father says, you should have a text book called el italianer. i have got a text book called chow. chow. there's not much of an is it italian? chow, bon acerous. what does that mean? eh, bon acerous you say anything else? want a lot? speaking italian what does that mean? school what? school. its so simple. it doesn't sound simple. but right, there's this word,a on the end right, some right that means boy, because o means boys and e with an e on the end means girls. girls and, and with with an i is erm boys and girls. no girl. is girl and is girl you get boy, girl, boys, girls, look i show you, i read you out everything i've done. giacomo, martin is martino, paul is paulo oh martino nicholas is nicola give it to me er lets see er here are speaking italian is boy speaking italian is boys,speaking italian is girl and speaking italian is girls. is that yeah, if you add o, you put an o on it to make it plural and a you just put an e on it . where is the beach? oh what a very useful thing to know cos your not likely to go to live there lease to meet you,wicked, wicked take this sentence er er what with me see this picture in the centre court, did you see that? yeah. brilliant isn't it? all day long. what? would you? no what doing to it? putting a roof on it no more umbrellas. these papers are the same aren't they, exactly the same stuff in them. huh, just surprise it wasn't eighty per cent office they're all right. i dunno, don't wanna go. oh, maybe i don't get any free time off you see, cos jenny goes to australia on monday. she only had two weeks from her free time. who do they know in australia then? and she's off for eleven full days and john could only afford to supply the three of them. say that again, sorry i can't she's off for eleven school days and john can only pay for supplies for three of them. hasn't he got enough money? what did we have for dinner last night? nothing, you went out to football. what did we have for dinner the night before that? oh i had flan, you had nothing don't you dare get me into trouble because had nothing to eat. , nothing,milk, nothing. o couldn't really be nothing. well what what about the eight packets of crisps you've had? i haven't had eight packets of crisps i expect so. i had flan on monday night, daddy had nothing you had cheese i had posh, nosh gosh, posh, cosh, cough sshh, paulie. you want coffee ruthie? yeah that milk? there's one caffitino left, i'll have it in a mug, as full as possible this is full? oh, that's hard on the eyes isn't it ruthie? yeah oh no it's graham the er cartoonist of fred bassett died. mm, i saw that i wonder if somebody else will take it on?my new mug. it's lovely i've tried oh yeah. it's not very full. it's your last one you'll ever have ruthie i know. weird is it? what? i drank my last orange one in school, chocolate and coconut has it got, we had a and you're allowed to fire the shot are you? yep. oh come on the sketch involved staggering around completely blotto. who? this, can you see this davro. oh yeah. and he said it wasn't his fault, he, he told to do by the script writers, but i mean it's to make out that he had no right to, it's ridiculous. there's only one light, a bit naught, it's waited for not right is it ? what is? when you said them all to that can yeah, i've already read that book this morning song, i lovely christmas book, only two twenty five and er . right eat up some of this salad i'm only on some must put that champagne, once you've done that orange er ruth, orange, put the champagne in there . you thinking of a special occasion? yes my birthday rufus right, what do you want, spritzer or no i'll have an orange that erm, straight from the bottle. paul what do you want to drink? er there's not enough room to er can i have a coke please? some of those dishes need to go up here. up where? pass them to me i'll do it now, some of those fruit dishes, there's not enough room there for the glasses , i like them then i'll take them. right, while we . you going to this, what a toy party is it? well i might call in there. best to, i place. yes i know. you've got some great there's some more in there. no, you've got some er grapefruit to drink up daddy, daddy, daddy , dad, dad, dad, dado yes . i ought to cancel the milk tomorrow. , what did you do with the of the milk we had? oh i chucked that. so much i gotta make a dozen mince pies for the , she said can you make a dozen mince for the , i said no sheila, she said pardon, i said no, i said i'd buy twelve i will not make twelve, so after that she's, then went round everybody could make twelve mince pies,it's a bit of a nerve isn't it?, seems a bit of a nerve asking us to buy the wool and make well, can't be fairer than that, she was passing on john's weren't she? ah , typical another one like trevor no matter what they, how they reason with what they saying it always puts people's backs up. we've only got i think it's both the same no, that's yours and of course, he's gonna say no isn't he? local firm designing twenty five warning signs. oh, first is it?that rochelle and company, i just opposite macdonald's road what they've fallen down, broken down have they? no,. they confirmed to make up to a thousand different messages you know that chinese shop in woking? yeah, mah jong three of them. two mah jong's. mm. where's the other two then? ah, twickenham, norton. those coke ones are yours now, they're not , they are ones we don't do without. we had twelve yeah taking those? no, i can't take them. well we'll crush them, and then you can take them, wash and crush them, then you can take them in a box, to your school, put them in your school , yeah. crush them for school . no someone has to. they crush them they have people standing round crushing why did i, why did i do, put them in the machine instead of dropping them on the floor then? i at school was he? well he should of carried it home and carried it all the way back again would you have done? er, take those a waste of time. you must have put about six of those in the bin. yeah, you can saying oh, dad, you wasn't get in trouble dad,he can't be still. oh because we, we don't, we don't have at school, we have pepsi in our machine. our machine actually is a pepsi, it sells lucozade, ribena, apple tango well we could put them all in the thing can't we? all in the canned box, it's lovely and we could put at the top no pepsi can oh, she's doing well in the they get some weird trips don't they? i think you have to er, er, you have to be a certain kind of person, you have to be prepared to anything don't you? i don't think, i don't think you're allowed to say ooh, i don't think i'd like to do that. there's a job down don't they . only for a bloke actually it's pretty easy, but for some of the girls i mean they sometimes has to false herself. there was a scene where she had to go upsta up the top of a windmill weren't there windmill wings oh what those things, i don't think she was too keen on height wasn't it the first black they'd ever had there, dad? dunno. those black you only had spooky, it's spiritual, it's like re-in i often believe in re-incarnation when you hear stories like that, how can someone just sit down, little child sit down and play the violin. three and he just came on and played the piano. like somebody dare. see palace have bought franz carr. palace what? oh what they're gonna buy him soon? like you say, i don't think he can be too good at, if he tried, he has had a lot of injuries apparently. he was a brilliant player , bright some players do. oh they've dropped goodman now, good i preferred goodman with, to gabbiadini. goodman's rubbish. what? spurs go to the soviet. ooh, how many tuesdays is this in the row that plays the dad? too many. six? no how, but if we go to those two games each tuesday count to three. do they? no go through them. to me birmingham away yeah birmingham home, q p r away, birmingham home, chelsea at home, swindon away swindon away , yeah, you're right. i thought i thought you meant weekly born free homework. well after this if they got a big rest didn't it, because i looked at, when we played norwich and it was march the nineteenth, well given that there was a game the week before, are you listening to me? yes. what did i say? given the game before that doesn't make any sense,before that's what you said yeah, you norwich. no i'm just saying once i, this, this semi-final gets over it doesn't look like the southern final gets played till february march. quick, probably will are we , we're in the semi-finals so if we win that southern semi-final. if we win that we're in the final at wembley, what, what if we beat chelsea at wembley? no. yes, you said that no, whoever wins this has got to play the southern final, that's what i'm just saying, the southern final was norwich last year then the final and that wasn't till march this year born free, march nineteen ninety one they played that. so why is he killing ourselves getting this over and done with? i don't know. weird. i noticed dennis took precedence over the foot run by pat, but he, he got a , pull one back , then he's five behind, here he comes, he's beaten nora ,two behind nora now. what merit points? you're two behind laura and i'm five behind er hinds. hinds' gone into the lead. he and heather, laura wow. laura's burnt out. what? laura's gone and burnt out, he's streaks ahead he is. they are three days . didn't get one for english, i did, i did what for? i got one for english i did, i did what for? born free for that daily telegraph bit . did any one correct your spellings? born free, oh by the way i went to that study centre, i went to that study centre and she looked at it she asked me what spilt over it and she said oh it's still readable and she said well done for coming to er i told you. apologize, i think she was a . paul, do you think you could start loaning this directly in the whole article about loneliness? how do you spell it? loneliness, loneliness is a state of mind. loneliness, loneliness what do i do? oh paul you've spelt your wrong, didn't anybody correct it? what. born free, born free what's spelt wrong now? he's spelt longliness longliness and your, y o u r apostrophe e good use of alliteration. tommy tarantula had torn his tattered trousers to threads before his terrible teeth consisted of tea, toast and trifle and some tapioca followed by t-bone steak, plus a round of did the teachers spell alliteration right? tandoori takeaway, yeah the teacher spelt, good writing. why some of these underlined in red paul? what? why some of these words underlined in red? well it's the t words here, that's what i used in there. no you didn't. what, which one didn't i use? takeaway, toast, tandoori takeaway it's all there toast toast there it's not there though. born free look at merito i've got a merito for every piece of work i've done well i wish they'd correct your spelling. she looks at the say that was good? merita, merita, oh merita oh paul whose w w h o apostrophe s, that's dreadful whose oh, oh says paulie. what to do, she, she met, she did do it yeah, she corrected it. i beat heidi on that, though still got a merito, got nine point for my spelling test. why don't you that is quite a good one that. oh paul, oh paul, oh,then the mother unfortunately deceased what on earth does that mean? died. well, deceased is having died, not died you mean die, unfortunately die i don't want to use die twice i can remember quite die far back in my life so i can recall my first piece of actual writing, i have a scrapbook at home and i look at it regularly, it had my first pieces of work in it, i usually drew pictures and then wrote things, my first piece was on a four and i have drawn a table, my mum and myself, i was holding a , i wrote one sentence and it was surprisingly literate this is what i wrote, it is my party and i wait for my friends to come, i did many pieces of work it's my party and i cry like that and eventually with the help of my mum i could join sentences together to make a real piece of writing. my first page of writing was about bluebell railway where we used to go with my brothers and ride on the sea bed have you seen this kevin? mm. it's my party and i da, da, da, da i wrote one sentence and it was surprisingly literate all you need is to do something about your spelling it's my party , look at my nice writing mum, that was you got all in that, english there, english there, english there and english there, and that i had six merit points yesterday. right, homework thursday design a drama. well it doesn't mean you don't have to do it. i don't know what homework i've got. why aren't you suppose to find out? i probably ,homework, because her daughter was dying or something and she, her daughter was quite seriously ill and taken to hospital, so we just had miss so we weren't given any homework for that what did you do in miss ? i wasn't i? and i don't think i have any, i don't know. well you're trying to say you haven't got any homework? no, i've got to revise for my erm science test tomorrow and i've got loads of stuff to do, i've got to keep going for the weekend, actually i haven't got that much to do, i've got drama that i can do if you just would be so kind turn over to number three so i can have a look at some adverts i've got a, will there be any adverts after we don't want number three now. i know, but can i just have a burst of adverts? you know all the adverts off by heart some adverts cleared out my locker i put all the that's what i'm doing there's a woman here called miss , who had a baby in asda, she's called her daughter danielle elizabeth asda well she's the woman,i've just realized that, look, look. i can't see oh fair enough. the woman in what? emmerdale. oh yeah the barmaid the barmaid. oh where have i seen her face? cheeky blighter. not that face perhaps that's where this . that guy at engin ruth, he gave a reasonable talk didn't he they reckon he's got a mental age of ten years old. you mean the hostage. no, engin the, one of this tottenham three well most of the ten year olds in my class can speak reasonably. do they? didn't, one of those hostages had suffered brain damage from the oh, i don't know. well . cos he was thrown against the wall and hit a mole on his head or something and it caused a bruise and it has actually damaged his brain. i think there's brain damage and brain damage but did your little group get winston silcott, on my quiz? yes. who did? not me. ah, dad wasn't it? i suppose, take this problem . for watched she sing?, when i got silcott on the yeah, you said, her what's her name was silcott you don't . is radcliffe's school called magna carta? mum, i read out all these school names, see if you know what they are, mm. brown. mm. mm. john the baptist. mm. silegions. silegions. mm. magna carta. mm. mm. mm, mm. you have them?, er guildford county school. mm, that's the . george abbott. mm. who goes to george abbott? don't know, simon's mother teachers at guildford county. where's park vile? park vile is a school for disabled children in guildford,maread oh what kind of and mohammed's gonna go there what's ma , magna carta? that's the only one i don't know oh that would never do would it? can't , can't please their youngsters out of thirty pound shirts i don't think at all. i've won the pools. why is it called mange tout paul? peas. what does mange tout mean? little no why are mange tout peas called mange tout? erm, small. no. what? mange tout, your french mange means tout means i don't know. everything, all, mange tout, eat all, that's why it's called mange tout cos he eats everything, and mange tout peas are called mange tout cos you eat the pods, twit okay, out of all these whose high school, out of all these list which one do you reckon will be the most complex system of ,,, st john the baptist,, magna carta, bishop , hart brown,county school, george abbott. say john the baptist. how did you know that? cos i'm a musician. and what would they be, what st. john the baptist. no. i don't know crotchet. quaver, crotchet, quaver, crotchet, quaver sounds like you no you're not going. ya, ya, ya, dad's says liverpool are winning weren't liv weren't the easy team they've had so far, they were,was quite hard as well i think,what you should of said, yes and i'm peterborough uefa cup. i don't think you'll get through. . ah, we don't need the uefa cup miss, it's only a uefa cup. don't,. well grovel answer we get the one of those tapes has got big on, leave it, that's your football one isn't it?that one's free now, your thinking of vice versa weren't we?, when i was thinking of big, yeah i was . you think what? get off that weren't wicked this bookline outlines these i have done some down in wales, computer studies i have done most work well, i blimey, everybody helped themselves to my toffee without asking i did these questions and mum. cocky little what's it what? you have to write down what you find difficult, i have found nothing very difficult paul, now go and get the hoover i can't. i have not found anything in modern languages, c d t i have found nothing very difficult. put virtually all his down the very easy column. drama, i have found nothing very difficult, music, i have not found very difficult. best thing is. geography i have found nothing very difficult. anything he found difficult, maths. computer studies paul mum can you stop shouting, it's on there. you, you've been hacking at this one bit, it's gone too soft, look that's why, yes, gone too soft from my point of view i have achieved quite a lot of those , i am very punctual and helpful. , just remember when you turn up if anyone has set me a test i have done very well especially in look, look at his , can't even sign his name reply, arthur badger. i have badger. oh heidi was this is my summary. who's he kidnapped? oh, oh she wanted him. no, he wants her head. what, that bogie bloke? yeah, he's just putting on what as a policeman, was he a policeman then? no, he was a criminal no, but what he's just come out of prison why did his, her husband evidence ah, we're getting there now ruth , right that's enough you lot, crikey, you you've got tons there dad. it's very fattening. yeah,. you're not going to be nine stone eight nine stone i've got to do me egg. oh. i've got to do me egg, like . don't mess with me dad,, ivor was so big headed, it was like a he kept going on and on, he kept going er, my geographical instinct, my maths instinct, my science grade, ah. it's quite likely to be quite bright though isn't he? with geographical instinct well his father's a surgeon, i mean i've finished reading it paul haven't what happens to it now? she's reading, can i just finish reading it? supposed to do it every turn? i'm gonna stop it soon, about time you did find something difficult really isn't it? if i find the time i let me find you some i will try to slant my handwriting to be more adult like, i will try to get many merit points, i will try to get at the top sets for every lesson you are in the top sets for every lesson do well in them, i want to carry on my good progress in the sports area, i do many sports now and i want to do more this is new how, how is this is this psychology? been here oh cos you've just started it as well haven't you? did you all put this in mm. does he, do you consider a very successful way of getting inside to what children think? they have the right i think only about ten per cent of children what? or maybe twenty per cent, ten per cent think they're better than the teacher thinks they are, ten per cent think that maybe they said eighty per cent are just exactly what you always thought, it's a waste of time writing it but i suppose you get insight er twenty per cent was she can't outrun him i think this bit she gets killed and she turns up in little england, this come on. oh ha, ha she's to escape does he think she's tied up, does he? i'm going to the toy party she's for half an hour and then i'm releasing moira so she can go for half an hour, she's who's tying her up? she's started she's got to go through that gate what gate? she's too near the wall ooh lovely ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, come on you silly cow, oh he's run right into her path ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah oh there's a lovely soft patch that she can fall on, god. ha, she's had me panicking like mad oh planes going over yes, she does she wanna out, out what? yes he's starring, yes he stars in little england next year. little england isn't english, is it? no, it's ex- in maibai, you'll watch it ruth as well no, because it's on the same time as emmerdale. you'll drop emmerdale. no i won't, i like emmerdale. oh. nice oh, er, oh no, sarah's got a cool head she won't panic, aha, ha, ha please let me go oh no, they and he turns up in some hanging from a chain he's being cruel to her isn't he? there are, she's dead she's buried this is quite good isn't it? do they do this purposely cos that man's just been sent to prison the same thing isn't it? what? john killed that bird when she said oh she wants to be near and he said couldn't let her go paul, homework, now i'm going. oh yes she saw the blood starting to come out of her neck and he caught her sighed , tell you what kevin you go and make a drink, i'll empty the tumbledryer and put the washing away, number one yes. paul what have you got on? i'll call you a pakistani, they wear three t-shirts, i said do you go to bed in them and then just leave them on the next morning put your school shirt on top? er? er, vicky says you are awful going er, i said that's what they do, they grunt at me like an animal i grunt back at them. she thinks you're , you do that to me. what, er er er, so i do it now, i get in first, i said have you done your homework er , who's a er, animals grunt your magic box kevin? dearie sorry. magic box watch my lips magic box. i've got the power. oh number one please he's got the power. i wanted to see my shares my shares are plummeting what are they now?it's only paper money, what's it matter? some of these you can't do. that's not number two. yeah. intelligent people are never bored miss hall's nineteen forty three. what? intelligent people are never bored. miss hall's nineteen forty three. is that when she said it? i think so, looks like the first one everybody accident at service cos he wants all year four holding you just said that though. lighted candles what would you rather like to be doing?, would you, if you're bored here, what would you really liked to be ? who said that? a perpetual who said that? hassan, all our naughty boys are called hassan, sorry, i'll re-phrase that, all hassan's in our school are naughty it's the equivalent of jason the pakistani equivalent of jason three and a half kevin,that was one of the worst investments you have ever made. what, you put you put on one. yes, but you've put twice as much money into it as your other investments. it was greed, i couldn't help it didn't you?, sheer greed. gone down from ten pence to three and a half. when they did that black i mean that is embarrassing lost so much how much what kind of things, i mean amongst people of your age, what are the kind of things that people might be involved? getting bored. oh can i have a look at this please? baa dad what's the gone down?. goodbye in it?, ever, ever ever, ever how do you say that goodbye in italian? italian italian no, affidavits, affidavits affidavits. yeah. it's a sworn affidavits in legal thing. oh illegal. legal i think it means like if you saw that boy do something, the police, you, you take out a sworn affidavit that you saw him do that and, i think it's a legal document, look it up, it's you wake that mum up a legal document it's not copy what? mum, what does affidavit mean? the lord twenty years old, first part of b, e, oh what means?, argumentative like mummy. how do you spell argumentative? argumentative argumentative countenance it's your face isn't it mum?, countenance i won't countenance any with countenance give up yeah? what? condone condones. cordons cordons it's like a party game isn't it? cordons. tied up abutment god knows. that bit at the side, something abut something. siblings. siblings? loud , noisy. just one i think what i don't recognise it is that ford, that's ford ruth isn't it?, that's what it is, it's a back ford, pearly way, those factories i'm sure. what did you say about abutment mum? something next to something what? meeting or , that was the name of an arch it's a building, it's a part of a building abutment not a word i would of thought it was worth finding out the meaning of. well who gave them to us? this book called the flight of doves by nina gordon. oh that's the way i work. that's photocopied isn't it?, are you studying that book? no she wants . if it's photocopied paul, she didn't write it down for each one of you did she? paul are you studying that book in class? yes, we're reading it. give me a sentence with evolution in it, and tell me, telling me what it means evolution. darwin's theory on evolution does not mean for many christians, no some christians do not accept darwin's theory of evolution. there's a lovely in there, in there, in the er life line, christian windows now double glazing group given terms of christian windows. some christians do not accept darwin's theory of evolution darwin with a capital d and then apostrophe s theory someone's up to naughties. affidavit got a sentence with that? what's it mean? this is declaration. oh witness needs a sworn affidavit a witness witness what? in what's got? oh affidavit disaster would be the crime was disastrously. yeah. disaster. bugsy malone admitted yeah, the guy who tied, who, who, who tied the women up on the railway lines, dastardly, wicked. which is that? well you know the film, you know the film dastardly, , you can get a big bowl of babycham now ruth. can you? yeah, that's good marketing how's committed spelt? ooh, it's a stinker. how's it spelt? is it two m's, two t's? yes. i got it right. you never i did dastardly committed there's your here you've not drunk how about criminal?how's criminal spelt? that looks good hot shot. yeah. how's criminal spelt? criminal?, c r i m i n a l, criminal you like her don't you paul? mm gone off her. she was better ages ago the man's countenance changed when he was convicted of a murder. yes paul wonderful. what do you normally, grades do you normally get for your english? i think work must be too easy then. ooh, wanna see that, next monday, wall street what is this i'm drinking, chocolate and almonds? yeah i don't think it's chocolate coconut. that's good,tha that's clever that, there's a it's marvellous that's marvel no, no it's not, it's slandering, no it's not it's liable, it's liable cos you in trouble. , three cheers can i check it paul? no did you check my spellings . evolution. e v o l u t i o n non, n o n p l u double s e d impeccable. i m p e double c a b l e i thought abutment had two t's affidavit. a double f i d a v i t dastardly d a s t a r d l y d e l del, i g e r e countenance c o u n t e n , start again c o u n t e n a n c e cordon don't know that d o r d o abutment a b u t m e n t erm, i've looked in there it is. abutting has two t's abutting. s o b l i a n t how's it spelt? s i b sibilant . this is a good talk about good jobs, that's schofield g , landed himself a nice little series there. what jason donovan? , no not , yeah i mean he's done well, like that schofield's europe schofield's europe, that's his second tour, and he's been all round the blinking europe yeah, he's brilliant ain't he?, goes anywhere he wants talk about , yeah all at bbc's expense one black mark, wrong, red mark, no homework, i forget it oh no , has it, what, exclamation mark? has it got no homework exclamation mark. just done a wrong one no, if i go over there are those mine mum hasn't rung and said adrian's got that job yet has he, she? no news is good news. might be. i just stop in your mother ah weekend. that is pure as a mother. that's old that is it? bought that about eighteen months old that picture. no. it is, you gave the coat away more than a year ago oh, it's my sibo what pure sibo that's pure unadulterated sibo that is look at those shoes dad, that's ages ago what's that? there well what's that green track suit? i think that's, you're right that's robbie in the same class isn't it?, robbie there. mummy, mummy reputed. david. you can't be right about everything i don't know who is he? david. robbie pre-crew cut, robbie david. looks like robbie to me. robbie hasn't got dark hair . i don't think it's robbie that's david, i know who's in his class. that boy still in his class? yeah, that's him. david still in his class? i don't think, i know robbie's gone, i'm not sure about him well look at the sell buy date on the well all you've got to know that robbie's gone look at the mark on the sell by date on the look at the sell by, very funny ruth. well, what are you talking look at the sign of the packet , i think it's ninety one. can't be oh, yeah, who's roy , oh the south african he's prime minister. it was eight four ruth. oh i thought he was dead a long time ago. oh ruth didn't know he was still alive, he's made more money you can make more money april ninety one. yeah that means it's at least a year old mm who sent it? at least a year ahead. who sent it? guy sent it, gee look that's half a million quid. who died? britain's smallest house is for sale at one and a half thousand pounds i'll buy it how big is it, nine foot? don't make sense really. nine foot tall, that's not so bad if you no stand in that might just be one room might just be one room wonder if i got my on my er b t shares?foods cold by the time you get they're more entertaining than the programme some of these adverts, more coffee jason even mrs cries what about? did she left? she left what time was the party from then? half past eight doesn't start till half past nine , blast i think i'll watch the telly at moira's . , i didn't know you was doing a fashion parade, i thought you was going to get some toys. . it just looks expensive though that's all. very expensive. ah how's, how much do you think? oh erm, i would, i would think about three hundred pounds summat like that am, am i right at three hundred or? erm, there's that to do, a new wing and that door to straighten out, a new front, all front balance oh well done and the side light it might be seven hundred then yeah, well, i went down and i said to after the eng the engineer had seen it, he said like order the parts and everything, so i went down a couple of days later i said just for curiosity what's, what's it gonna cost us this bloody lot? you know yeah he said well we haven't got the price for spare parts yet he said, but i don't think we'll get much change out of a thousand pound good heavens, how, what happens then, do you have it to pay or do the insurance pay? oh the insurance pay for that oh do they? oh aye i just have to pay the first fifty pound oh yeah of any claim whether it's my fault or not it makes fifty pound though cheap doesn't it you know oh i'm not i mean you think, when you sign y with your insurers thing say well i'll have this and i'll pay the first fifty yeah really it's nothing is it? oh no these days no no, no, well when i, when i get it, the thing that gets me going is this, that complete car cost me er six thousand, eight hundred yeah and then it's gonna cost a thousand pound to repair it so yeah i mean bloody hell if i er but how d'ya feel about it once it's repaired? well it's alright, i mean if it was the chassis that had gone er er if it was the chassis had gone, i don't feel very happy at all no but er, well i mean it's a bolt-on wing yeah i mean sometimes used to get hammer and chisel to 'em that's right and chisel them off and chip the wing off, now they don't, it's bolted on, so i thought well bolted on it's like a spare it's like a spare part really, yeah yeah, yeah yeah, yeah well i had a triumph herald once upon a time, everything with that was bolted on mm it was smashing you can, you could take anything off, the only thing you had to cut was, was a little thin fanlight at the back here and one at the front, inch and a half wide yeah it was welded on, that, well that held the roof on, everything else was bolted on yeah and there was a little triumph herald sign on that, bolted through, that was to cover the weld look, and that was smashing and then they went through all this welding job and i, when he lifted the bonnet up the engineer had a look at it, i said, oh i said is this bolted on? he said yeah, i said oh thank christ for that so he said oh, he said nearly all the cars are bolted now, the only thing, the ones that aren't bolted on now are fords they still weld all yeah theirs on, but er of course that's just making it easier for manufacturers isn't it really the car oh this is it i mean they i mean they're not interested in ordinary motorists are they? oh no i mean we've been down there when you put dash like, when you have to wire, er a bolt goes on the dashboard and everything, well christ i've been round, we went round er sunderland works, nissan, at sunderland, and we've been round rover works and we've been round ford at halewood eh i mean when you get there they just get the, the dashboard out and the bloke on the bench he puts everything on the bench yeah and they just drop it in with a clamp and it gets sh shoved in and then another bloke just connects all the wires up yeah and so they say well to take it, to take the board back you do this, you've got to remove that bloody dash yeah, no they do, we watched them shove an engine in, you know, it comes along the belt and and stick it in you did want to be able to go around all them works, what, what was it with the i c i i c i well cos our, our yeah our sec our like chairman of the group is er, used to be a, a district convener for the union ah and he's still got something to do with the union, so what he did, when he goes to these meetings he said to the, ah you bloke at nissan how about getting us round yeah and ac according to according to nissan we're all retired er and then er vauxhall we got invited round fifty of us went round vauxhall oh that's good that's good, er and i say round vauxhalls the only thing we didn't see at vauxhalls was the er paint shop oh yeah he says because the smell there is so great yeah it'll be on your clothes for a long enough so yeah but we, we set off in a big building, well a building about four times the size of this these houses and it was all sheet steel wrapped in polythene packages that's marvellous that, yeah and that's where the steel came in oh all treated and then a, a stacker truck came in with a pile er, a four foot square foot doors and he yeah went through and he put a two pile that down, another on er bonnet and it was all planned out and it was all, these stacker trucks went in mm and we watched them and we watched er see, that's the only thing we didn't see mind this manufacturing line is a great time saver and a money saver int it? right yeah, you haven't mentioned going round the brewery there then? oh not while we've been round er we've been round sainsbury, the back of plant of sainsbury, we've been round lime brewery at blackford, we've been round tetleys brewery three times what leeds? no four times leeds? no warrington warrington then we've been round the carlsberg brewery at northampton have ya? yeah twice that, now that'd be interesting we've been round yeah yeah scottish newcastle royal brewery twice cos there's always a free t twice free drinking in, in carlsberg's the best is it? yeah, yeah er you know you can have all the fish courses, you can eat as much as that as you like, then they have all the, the meat courses yeah and you eat all that, then they have the sweet courses to go from and all the time you're drinking carlsberg before you go in, then er, like er, a danish snack like aquavit oh you're drinking that during the meal like you know and that's amazing isn't it? er amazing what they can do and when you're with the come down with ya, where's the, they'll only take twenty ah so when we went down there to the brewery there were forty eight cans of carlsberg on the coach ready for us and coming back there were another forty eight cans so it's er at leeds, they er, i haven't been and er i were in the conservative club at queensbury and they had a club, they had er, er a trip that went through to the erm, to the brewery and leeds tt and they have a fi er a sociable room you know yeah a sociality room whatever, whatever they call it and er, and they gave them a good do really aye er, but they didn't go in for food like er you're talking about oh, oh no the, the treat was at the end they gave them a very er, an opportunity of having a very strong drink oh well but er this, when we were round tetleys at toddington, er, you have a few drinks at the bar mm and then they say there's a trip going round at the brewery, er you can either have the er twenty five minute trip or the, the forty minute trip, whichever you want, well of course everybody says the twenty five and then the rep always, it says oh well these fellas have been four times before so we stop in the bar and you can have what you want, spirits whatever you like and then the bucket comes out and it's, it's smashing oh well it's, they're very good aren't they? yeah i've never ev er the only one i've ever been on, i went round dorman longs once yeah, right but i only went round dor dorman longs because the man who's in charge of the labourers who moved all the machinery about er i sort of went with him see i didn't yeah, yeah go as a, an official guest really yeah but erm er, i'm going round rovers in april half are going to rovers and half are going round cadburys place ah very good, yeah and then in the afternoon those that went round cadburys are going round rovers, and those that went round rovers are going round cadburys it's interesting to see how other people perform int it? oh aye or have made their living yes really yeah cos there's i don't been a lot, on cars there's been a lot of yeah and, and on, and on beer there's a lot of oh aye, yeah yeah i couldn't work in a car factory no doing one thing for a fortnight that's all it is it's repetition go over and over or around whatever it is just for a fortnight but even so yeah oh just shoving sheets of plate into a, a machine that comes down and it take, it goes out the other end and you put another one in all day long yeah yeah oh mind destroying yes how are you this morning mrs ? shivering it isn't as cold as it was though is it? damp int it? aye it is damp, get, get yeah yes sid was very cooperative there he didn't realize but he has been he's spoken very well, we've talked about all these jobs he's done and all the travelling he's done with the he's interested in ya all of a sudden yeah, right very good, i don't know what did ya did ya, ya having still they bloody resigned they did aye, so oh she did rather yeah, yeah, yeah so it shows you how bloody useless they are a bunch of where? bloody idiots i think we could do with somebody i, i mean stanley's er, er has been at er been repet stanley's had it for me he aye, he aye he doesn't seem to work for it does he? he's a bloody idiot he doesn't seem to work for us does he? he works against us aye i've asked him to do a bloody couple of jobs and he hasn't done 'em yet no simple little things yeah ah leave it to me, leave it to me but then it's left altogether int it? and that yeah silly pillock is a bloke who wants, who's got a little office on the promenade at the yeah station yeah and he's planning all this damn, it's costing millions of pounds and it's costing thousands of pounds while he's sat in that dammed office having it all drawn up and yeah that, er digging up the centre of morecambe, done away with this bridge and that yeah he's a bloody for a bus driver and never made a bloody penny it makes you wond it makes you wonder really, really where they get the background for planning doesn't it? i mean they get into these jobs and really they've no background of understanding of the exact yet it's the bloody simplest no thing i'm, i'm, i'm a bit against er traders like, like builders and all like that and trade people being on the council, i'm a bit against that, er but after saying that, those kind of people do have some understanding on what's to be done understanding, yes but, but these fellas they come along and they have, they get in because of a policy but what a per rather than the person my policy regarding morecambe is this, people come into morecambe as a private individual like yourself, like me, like my family and we come in here to accept morecambe as it is yeah, yeah not as bloody what the committee wanted no bloody towering bloody flats of ruddy peo aye, aye and they've raised the rent of every damn thing up, ours isn't r combination houses rent yes my rent gone up on allotment yeah, yeah now what's it you know five hundred percent yeah that that, that go, that's not right is it? no that's four door that's er yeah so's you can un pack up, soon as you pack the bloody allotment up yeah and the speculated buildings and they have land to play about with aye, yeah anyway i'll have to go aye i'll see you then er let us know tomorrow, aye, take care then so she were just having a crumpet, she's but butter were all melting, i says i can just picture now running down your chin and she says we'll, we, we had a later so she were just having a few crumpets and er is she gonna come you say? well i told you what she said about her and sandra you know and i wrote and said when they you know if they felt like coming for a day that'll be alright i said but don't be having anything to eat i'll bring in sandwiches, i mean i, i know i've said it's very kind of sandra to say, but you can't, they, way your relatives are coming and bringing sandwiches can ya? ooh definitely not it's ridiculous can't have that but,then again with eileen you never know with eileen she says well it's, it depends on our sandra she said i'm not building up on it cos you know what she is, but she says if you know she might want alan to come and then she goes on and, and then, then she says i don't know what we shall do really if we do come, she says cos if eileen won't, she's work, really can't come if alan comes oh of course they can can't they? they haven't mentioned it to ida, of course they can yeah so, if, if, if they're all four of them coming er and she says about going in for a meal i shall say oh well if you feel like it go and do that then and come for your tea i mean it's just putting them round table isn't it? yeah, what, how many's that? er six well we can manage it can't we? well we have, when we have james and robert it's a bit of crush isn't it? but er i haven't, oh with four it's just nice, five enough oh what i'm really saying is that you can't er oh i wouldn't dream of i mean oh i know, no i wouldn't dream, i mean think that good enough to come and see you then having and bringing,br having their dinner and then bring your sandwiches for all lot that's right our lisa well she said i'll stand at we'll take sandwiches and ferry you and john an'all, i said well very good i says but you tell her just to forget that will ya? otherwise she'll get her hands and face slapped mind you see they're, they're very willing aren't they to er well she says if you'd of come to sandra's she'd make you something, i says i know eileen and so would i as well, i says i wouldn't have anybody coming in and bringing them sandwiches, i mean if somebody knocked on the, on our door one day from queensbury and we didn't know they were coming and they'd brought sandwiches with them yeah well you can't do nowt about it then can ya? no that's true you know or, but i mean i could make, you could make anybody sandwiches can't ya? it's not a, it's not a long journey either from queensbury to morecambe is it? no when they erm oh no it isn't and the lies she's she says as i say i'll have to wait and see what she says, because she said, you know when weather gets better, oh i says you're better off waiting while it gets better weather yeah i says and you've more daylight then but the daylight is improving now isn't it? very, very nice i'll say it is i'll say it is but she says she has a trapped nerve in the top of her leg, she says sometimes it's not so bad but she said it's not bad, you know when i get up she says i'm in a lot of pain and it, you have to take painkillers for it how old is eileen now, she's seventy, seventy? well she was seventy since we came here, on our second year, so she'll be about seventy three i think, her birthday i think's in er november or something, she'll be about seventy three will eileen, let's see, uncle jim was seven when i was born, so he, i'm sixty six next so he will be seventy three, i'm sure, oh no well that's right int it? that's seven well if you knew, if you knew the difference between her age and yours you see she's about, only about twelve month younger than him aye well he was fifty seven when he died mind she seems very a she seems very active joan though don't she? she's very active minded is eileen yeah very active well physiclar particular well as i say she's, she said she's had sitting and er ache you know and she has these things just to keep going, she has taken up inside her, just to keep going, that's why she goes and has that like i had to examine inside that no more has grown and all the things inside her aye, yeah she has to go every so many months to check that they're not reoccurring, but apart from that she is, she's quite er, she's quite good, quite active minded cos playing go bowls and playing bowls and and the west end chapel keeps her going er and she said many a time that helped her to get er bowls at chapel have been over un losing uncle jim did the chapel oh it's mind it'll be very nice to see 'em come won't it? oh i'd like, yes i'd like someone to come here, oh i'd like 'em all here for the day yeah well that's right, cos you see they're off by, half past six you know aren't they, six o'clock? yeah, i mean eileen if eil eileen ever can manage to get her friends to bring her and at weekend, eileen's no bother er she's easy to get on with is eileen, probably be shattered with talking after she'd gone, but she's easy i mean i, there's lots i wouldn't want coming to stay, but eileen is one i don't, i wouldn't mind because, well oh i know eileen's ways and er, er, her, my interests are very much like hers we've similar interest with family and everything, er it's just if you've nothing in common with them no that's, that's gonna be a bit awkward it's a pity it's a pity there isn't a regular certain bus service int there? yeah if we had a regular bus service rather than a regular train service yeah. you see really, i mean it's no bother if you're going, if you're coming from queensbury to here with what? the train no i mean if you get if you get it's not cheap those not, not at all oh no, oh no i'm talking about, oh aye, yes i understand that, it's not cheap and you've got to get to the station but if er, yes if you have somebody to take you to station and then we pick 'em up and if you're coming for a few days you've, you've bag carrying and all this in the business ah aye yes yes yeah anyway that's the way it goes innit? i mean i know you stay well you know you have, you have relatives with cars and that, but you can't do with putting on other people can ya? never, never you can't do with asking, if they offer, it's a different story, so mind you does alan work away? and sandra's at home int she now? no she's not no she's er, she's teaching so many what half term what she's not aye, she's not full time though is she? i don't think she's full time work, no no, mind you it might be so, so long each day oh, aye, yes yeah but if, if you know what i mean i, i thought she was er, i thought she was that alan isn't working away, i mean he comes home every yeah night, yes, for his meals what have you had tonight then joan special? mine needs putting in there oh that's me jumper i've all them tapes to play you know with interviews oh my goodness john i don't know who you're gonna interview the national treasury well i'm thinking of er er recording their own conversa the trouble is though, if you're recording your own conversations you're a bit stilted oh you are definitely you're not, not, not natural are ya? that's right the tapes and conversation details will all become completely anonymous no one will know who's used the words or whose voice are on the tapes together they will provide a permanent record of how the english language is spoken in the nineteen nineties we'll go down in posterity, eh? yes, yes, it's a good thing really you can put one on them we've converse for the, put it on for the evening well it says if you have to do it when the television's on, we never have the television off put it on at seven o'clock er emmerdale farm, but you see when it goes on you feel as though you're tongue tied all be completely anonymous these are all same, but they're different yeah, well i think those are when, you know, if, if i take one of those with me and somebody s and somebody er says well why, why are you taping this conversation you know, you, i can give 'em one of those yeah and you won't if, do you, won't have to tell 'em what you're getting for doing it, you're just, you're just doing it for interest so to speak yeah i know reckon you're doing it well i am actually, i am actually doing it for interest it's not gonna be easy mind ya well it isn't because you've got because you've got a something that's absolutely foreign to what we do, we don't er we'll have to ask freda and ken over one night for their suppers yeah secretly well no you see you can't can ya? oh yeah, what oh yes, oh without a doubt joan, er you can do it, you could have the name and you could have who talked to them and, and then i can tell 'em that what, i've done this you see and that'd be the end of it it does suggest that you don't tell them before you tell them after and then you sort of give them the opp the opportunity of me knocking, not recording it you see, wiping it off the tape, because it stunts the conversation. yeah it does, you see if ken and freda or anybody knew they were being televised they'd be careful of what they said yeah, if they come up to you with a microphone and say would you like to say a few words for the television programme yourself i wouldn't i'd dry up i wouldn't know what to say you're like er like butter melting if you've plenty of time for thinking about it yeah, it really wants to be all written down so you can read it off don't it? that's right and can you play that back then to see what it sounds like? yes, she was saying was the lady that they erm er where she come from? she's a local woman, she's a local woman is she? yes you can play it back although they don't suggest, they don't proposed you do that, because the batteries might not last you see oh yeah er, it's only fort the forty five minutes per per tape, erm per side, er and i think it's after three, three, three tapes you chuck the batteries away and she left another, a load of batteries oh my goodness so, erm she expects you to be busy then all next week doesn't she? yeah, well that's true i did, i did say to her, i says well erm are you interested in performance, i said do you want, you know, is it a lot you want? well she said it's up to you how you go on really, you know the more, the more you can do the better or less, see how it works out, cos you don't really know do ya? you don't really know and they and that cos suggesting that a couple of days, oh a couple of days is, is enough really, if you, if you get two days out of it mm and what's the, where you can go you see for oh well mind you cos it isn't as though, see if we're at queensbury we're going to doreen and frank's and, and, and that's, that's our, that's our conversation yeah, oh aye i can, i can, i can some conversation now if they'd of had emma with them oh, but you see that, that, that doesn't always apply, because if i go into the library and i take it with me and i sit by er, that gentleman who keeps handing me the paper or that lady you know mm who speaks to you, er it's easy enough to just er have the microphone handy that they don't see and just switch the tape on and i'll record what they're saying, come away, see, do it secretly like that, they don't have to know really that they're on tape and it doesn't really matter, i mean the people who will listen to these tapes are er anonymous you know well they, you're anonymous with these an'all aren't ya? yeah you are that, and where was she going then? where was she didn't say, because really i were, i were interesting in going in the, in the kitchen you see, cos i knew you did she have a car? i didn't even notice that, but i did notice her across the road at mrs and know so right she'd been there i just didn't notice where she went, but i heard the bell ring and i could see this anorak through there and me mind thought mrs , perhaps it's mrs but then when i saw this this lady well i just didn't know what to think really. but you see three quarters of an hour, if we, if we, when er ken, ken and freda's an hour and a half, er, it soon goes an hour and a half with company like that don't it? mm and ken and freda have plenty to talk about, by god aye, freda will have anyway but you don't realize what's going on do ya in all, in the country? according to the, the pamphlets here it's, it's government funded all government funded job ooh you'd think they had nothing else to spend their money on it, i think it's silly, there's enough words in the dictionary good and bad what,how you're doing, doing a conversation at home cooking dinner, working and eating in office, serving a customer in a shop, in a car or a bus a train, out shopping with a friend, in a pub i can hear ya it said john here, it said er only include people who speak to you there's not many of them around is there? don't forget to include your own details yeah it's erm if you, even if you just go in a shop and ask for something, i tell you what i'll send you in butchers with it, for one or two bits and he'll talk won't he? yes get him talking in butchers or if there's a few in it can be handy for listening to their, won't it? yeah yeah, i'll send you in the butchers oh it's a bigger where would you hide it on you? oh in me pocket anywhere say it's er,in a pub or restaurant er in a shop etc in a restaurant cos case of a shop assistant and you don't know their name, don't, write don't know on the first line of shop assistant under occupation, only include people who speak to you why? oh why you're having to speak, you having to have the other people talking to each other, the people who speak to you oh you don't realize how important speech is and conversation until you, somebody asks you to record it, how much conversation you're, you're involved in. oh dear oh if you collect some materials she'll give you a pet a gift token for twenty five pounds, goodness gracious me. oh, oh dear oh she said that one, one lady did a lot of recording and then played it back and listened to herself and didn't like her own voice so she wiped it all off and handed it in. well that's silly because nobody'd known it was her would they? no exactly, no you sound awful there, so i agree, i don't think you realize how you sound, no you don't, no you don't oh dear anyhow i'll get myself a drop of drink, you say it's seven o'clock do ya? that's right, mm, mm anything you need? no thanks love, not yet that's with the conversations, spoken english, guidelines for recording conversations, guidelines for recording conversations as soon as you've been involved in a conversation, press the record down to start recording oh yeah these are to show people what you're doing for yeah well i'll learn to take over and just, just learn that's right will you have one of these love? just to no thank you john, no thank you, would you like one of my chocolates? are you having one now? no i'm alright thank you oh i don't want one really trouble is, trouble is you see if you er if you leave her alone you don't know just how she's gonna go on do ya? no then then the problem is you're guilty all the time aye that's right yeah if you don't go every day, yes, that's once you've start you'll yeah you've had it it's a good job it's not all that far away int it? i mean no, it is you spend most of your time like that she thinks i should do it, you know how old is she ken? eighty nine going on oh, and you see if you didn't go ken she'll wonder where you were aye she'll say i wonder where you were, cos they are like that aren't they? and does doctor call regular? never comes near oh they should do you know aye shouldn't they? they're supposed to go every week i don't think they even bother me for, for you know what i mean, what can you do about it? well if somebody doesn't you know mm i tell you what, car's a bit frozen up this morning every day ah good job i'm not working, having to take freda on er, i used to hate that oh yeah to scrape off at seven o'clock in morning yes oh, been good or it soon melts though doesn't it? aye with the sun, yes it's aye once sun gets on it, it's away like, aye it is the fog and having to get in but then that's life isn't it? that's life mind you, you can't get down there can you? oh no, no no the road down is blocked, you couldn't get out, you wouldn't be able to open your doors no that's right, that's true pauline's is very nice where they live, michael doesn't bother taking his in, cos it's the gap, well they couldn't get it in the but pauline's smaller car, she just gets it doesn't she? aye aye she does, yeah and i thought i don't know how she manages to back that down, but she does, and it's a long drive like that int it? aye it is but she that's all i think about if, if it conks and won't start again, you can't get out no, no no, no no that's right no mind you, you'll be surprised how wide it is you know from your steps from your pipe to your wall there ken aye pipe you might get passed with it wouldn't like to see i wouldn't bother no i wouldn't like to think i were guiding you down there no, i, i would just put it in at this end and it's amazing how i did it yeah see you then ken ta-ta ta-ta thank you er, and you know, you can drive yourself crazy really yeah oh yeah going on one to another, but it's just sad really we can't do any, much more you see yeah, it's just, i don't want him to start up in the summer again no, no, no, yeah those bloody two store lorries yeah and back, because he does that every year, you don't hear it in the winter, it's every summer he starts, he starts yeah that up of a night and he has it going all night yeah and you can't watch them, the air's stiller i think in the summer yeah have a through the night and you can't sleep no even up, further up the road to us can't, have turned round and said they can't sleep no, well what i was going to do, er, i thought i might write to the council and say, seeing that er, it's important to have that there mm i'm gonna write and say and seeing that they're going to reorganize the way they're gonna collect the community charge, you know, they're gonna do it on houses yeah rather than people yeah i were gonna ask for a reduction in community charge yeah er gonna erm which you won't get well aye but if you, if we do it you see cos they got that bloody many that aren't paying haven't they? yeah there was a programme on this morning, i don't know if you saw it or not? no i didn't no no i've been out, i've been out since half seven this morning well er twenty past seven this morning it was amazing really there were one young man there from er, er london polytechnic and he was a very arrogant young man, er and there were all kind of things came out yeah you know he said well er, he was talking about erm, er this trident thing yeah why don't the council, but all that's really yeah to do with government rather yeah than paying your community charge oh aye i mean they must pay the cover yeah you see his expenditure was er, he, he, he, just to put it down to a very minor thing, you're spending four pound a week mm four to five pound a week on beer er but he wouldn't pay a pound a week, and he's come, a pound a month yeah on his community charge, erm, but it's, it is a problem really, it is a problem yeah but i haven't really got any further, haven't got, got any further oh and i don't really know where to go to now you see no, well this is it isn't it? now i mean we, we did very well going up there and yeah spending an, an evening waiting for him and seeing him yeah anyway i better get so we'll let it drive a bit anyway aye we'll see how it goes see ya anyway yeah put the money in a, on a br corner r r of a bridge, it's just outside barnsley yeah why weren't the police there when they well there, there it is they've picked the money up yeah run across er, they must've gone across er some lines and got on a motorbike, but where were the police? well there's so many of 'em about really well that's asking the question yeah, yeah that's right yes daily express there's that many of them really, you'd think there'd be yes be a, i don't, i don't, i don't think that wouldn't of happened in no any other country do no nobody er put no they want eight hundred and fifty odd thousand pounds now and nobody watching them yeah, yeah they're comedians mind they have got they've got the curlm they've got the girl back haven't they, that's one oh aye aye that's one great thing oh aye where they're i've no, i've no excuse for police out yeah on its job, no it's well anybody with intelligence knows yeah who's going this, who, what, who's going to answer if they put a hundred and fifty, a hundred and seventy thousand, five pound down and nobody will watching it being who did it? i think they'll catch them though, i think they will catch 'em it's not a matter of catching them no i very much doubt they will yeah, don't, don't you think they will? no no there's, there's yeah the police yeah but why the hell, money put down and the village in er just outside of barnsley yeah mostly be they'll be working on the, they'll be working on the kidnapper's instructions though wouldn't they? they would be working on the kidnapper's instructions, the police? the police? aye on aye the, the senior detectives yeah but where were the police? mm but it's sad affair really int it? really sad affair it wouldn't of happened in america if were no, wouldn't of happened in russia either, it wouldn't of happened in russia yeah er we can't even, you mean to tell me there's all these bombs keep going off wi it didn't, if it had happened in france police carry bloody guns yeah and all sorts you don't think we're strong enough then, police? strong enough? yeah we're not strong enough cos they did, they work on a softer approach you know the police, they're not, they're not on the hard they're not strong enough no, no if a fella walked in here now with a bloody gun i'd it's er, it's it's like america it save a lot of money er all these pensioners get 'em all shot off aye, now, wait a moment, wait a moment show common sense, if, if, if it'd happen in america in five minutes there'd be a hundred bloody policemen out there yeah with guns yeah, yeah i must admit it's a poor do when they know exactly where the criminal's going to be at a certain time and then they let 'em go number of time they can't catch anybody they're only going on people's information yeah it's a big, in this town it's kept quiet, it happened on monday night of course there's gonna be a bloody big shake up in lancashire police, it happened in this town there er, er, er a robbery at a bungalow where an old lady were is that right? yes, it's been kept quiet was anybody injured, anybody hurt? well the old woman's in hospital er, and it hasn't been reported yet then? aye, pardon? it hasn't been reported in the papers then yet? no no they've, they've not put nothing in the papers whereabouts, whereabouts was this happened? oh i'm not saying anything no i know where it's happened yeah yeah. we've to be on our guard all the time really, we've to be on our guard all the time, all the time lately this town there's more layabouts in this town and some and anywhere in lancashire you don't, they're not lancashire people, oh they're homeless and they live in, in boarding houses at the expense of er the tax payers where they supposed to live then? yes where they supposed to live? yeah drawing income tax in boxes er yeah drawing social security yes silly old sod yeah where these people supposed to live i wonder just and get bigger shake up it's ever had in it life who persecutes life, it's coming now, we come as old as we are. mind you it makes you wonder whether the democracy itself is in trouble you know yeah it's about time it were shaken up now that labour party er this government er, erm they're agreeing to this, this has to be done and that has to be done you put notices up on buses all over britain no smoking in the buses, now in the big restaurants they're going to have to between now and july put notices up, no smoking in restaurants i agree with that i agree with that yes mind, i've never smoked in all me life so i don't understand it really, i don't er understand how people suffer really why can't, tell me, this, how this is the intelligence and that, had er well i dunno i think that they would follow if they wanted to roll up they can do they do with aye, do you think so? i used to smoke heavy did ya? packed 'em up just yeah like that cos i've never smoked you see so i don't really understand right this the, what makes me laugh is that people's intelligence, they walk along a street shopping and as soon as they walk into a restaurant they sit down and start smoking yes, that's one place they shouldn't be allowed yes well they're just saying they're gonna put notices up in, first of july well in british homes stores' restaurant the rest of them and all them big, they've been putting them up well they have smoking areas up in those yeah, yeah restaurants like because them who own the restaurant they'll get er they'll be fined on the common market laws that's if we take any notice of them eh? pardon? that's if we take any notice of them who? and the person what's our authorities really i know and listen they won't clean our beaches up listen really, we won't clean the sea up, we didn't bother with that yeah, didn't, you don't and water's the same way yeah water's the same way innit? there's hundreds of french, germans they're waiting until the first of july and they'll be in this country in a flash. well we've, well i, i come originally from yorkshire yeah and then and then and we and we were selling er mohair to france, all, all my working life into france we're selling mohair and our into, into france all my working life they're blaming, they're blaming so whether the french come over here or not i think we're quite ready to cope with them here they're blaming er parents are blaming school teachers about the kids, now where i live kids are running around up to eleven o'clock at night sometimes, it's not the teachers to blame it's the parents no, it's educational system that's wrong aye, they live at silverdale what were your job? what did you do? aye, erm what did you do as a job? the youngest has just gone to school and he can read, the parents are not concerned about reading, mm i think this system of getting all the children to sit round a table and be taught as a group is wrong, i think they should be taught individually, should have a desk of their own and, and the teacher should stand there and deliver the lesson er to each person but that's, that's the way it goes nine out of every child will be and how many children in england can speak german? well you're painting a very dark picture for us this morning aren't ya? well it's true about old people getting mugged and schools and police in trouble well it, if they're, if they're pointed going to come, if we're going to come a full member of the common mark it's no laughing, we laughed, we laughed at bloody hitler didn't we? and we nearly come under it er were only for the yanks. well if er, if they'd left it a bit later what if the yanks of left it a bit later they'd of missed all the action would they? well we couldn't of stopped hitler ma maybe so, maybe so, but oh you can never mind this country's never won a major war on its own and never will do the americans are the americans came into the, to the last war to satisfy their own ends and that, i'm saying that how it ends they weren't bothered about all this i'm saying that i'm an english member, we've never won a, a major war on its own look what's, what's happened in, yeah, never won a major war on its own and never will do, there's no nation in the world could beat a german army and, er what would built up on fear yes i agree with ya, they'd built they went up high the army was, it were built up like the er, er mafia, it were built on fear, yes there's no constellation to stop each other if you didn't do what they wanted to do they did, they did you in, they sent you to belsen japan this cou did this country er good, even though they bombed er pearl harbour they did this country a good a good what's it shall we say oh they did, they brought they brought the americans in, yeah they brought the yanks in, aye, they brought the yank and that that's why the americans came into the war, they didn't come into the war to look after us, they came in to look after their own interest in the no, i know into the well listen don't run away with the idea that anybody's ever helped us listen because we have done everything we should of done, we've defended the right all over the world, we went to the falklands, we, we defended the right in it well why weren't we, aye, well why weren't we ready? why ain't we army? you don't think we'll be chucked out of this library for talking too loud do ya? well why, well listen, well why, what the, you tell him i can't be bothered tell us why wasn't this country ready boring people, boring hours, what about the people who are getting the rent off it eh? what about that? sen fancy sending army wagons across to france before dunkirk, to, to stop bloody tanks, that's how bloody intelligent britain is. is it all wallpapered or? most of it, yes, why, what you looking for? well no i just, i just notice some jackets with them things oh well we sell er mostly work clothing you see i see yeah industrial shoes and boots yeah and bedding that sort of thing mostly wallpaper, yeah oh that looks like an oil with a on it it is, yeah six pounds fifty oh that's handy joan isn't it? mm that's handy i think now i remember hearing you saying nearly all wallpaper yeah ah they're all right if you want a couple of wallpaper jobs, a couple of rolls isn't it? yeah they are, yes aye oh no, oh no when you look at that, what does that say there? what does that say? twelve pounds that can't be twelve pounds surely, it's slightly imperfect, twelve pounds each oh well at least we've looked haven't we? mm that's one thing, yeah pardon? the salvation army in look oh eh, have we had one have we? ooh, yes just a minute have we had one? oh i think we've got one well i have, would you give me another one please? yeah i will, yes, here i do remember that don't know gonna cost you a fortune in envelopes innit? you want it now? having it now or what? yes please yes, just a minute how's the world treating you then? very well, yes, yes oh dear can't grumble well that's the way to do really aye, well you get nothing for grumbling do ya? no you don't, no see they've had er mums and tots down at the centre today oh yeah yeah they've had a good time i think down there when's your next jumble sale? oh i think there's one a month, we had one last week ah about one a month i'm told, i think we'll keep 'em like, we've had one or two little bits and we've taken 'em down you know and yeah, that's the best way really yeah amazing where it all comes from well it's to be all really that somebody can make a use of these things innit? oh yeah yeah yeah, aha when joan's aunty died we, we gave all the stuff to er the in er near, near bradford i don't know if they're frosty or not, i don't know whether bradford? yeah oh it don't matter yes yeah yeah by we lived there thank you so oh did you? my daughter used to live there oh did she? oh oh well a nice pla that's a posh place oh it's nice the building int it? very high though and ha, look, look, there's a friend of yours across there oh there's a few of them yeah, right oh yeah thank you there's that, okay? i don't know she what? she got conned it's sticking a bit is that, that john listen oh aye daft weather aye yeah, come in in what way er ken? i think it's because i've er, erm well will you have a cup of coffee? no thanks, no i'm alright what about you dear? don't want to hold you up pet oh you're alright you're not, i'm not going out this morning no,er i've plenty of time aye, so you end up marking it then and er, well she did, she got me to go there second time, and he said well you can't you see er yeah ones you've picked, oh he said they're twenty five ah but it was a nicer looking thing yeah ah he said, this is twenty er poor thing oh beside her, and these are twenty five, i said you didn't say that before, oh yes i did he said, i think oh well i'm not wasting my time here arguing with you yeah aye so i took that, then when i get it home it, it soon a sight worse then i can tell ya, he did a, a that was higher than that yeah, yeah well it's not so bad is that no one end isn't it? you know no and then you have so we settled for that but er, it was an inferior weren't it one we yeah had, but he said it were twenty in the end and then he changed his mind at twenty five so and are they, are they feather-lined or are they no, they're er ours are feather int it? well we have two ah and the, the one that we had before we came here the one we had er big bed thirteen tog that was fifty odd pounds yeah oh it's a fog er fogarty is it? er fogarty or something and it's still we duck it down duck down int it? mm and it's, it's thirteen point five tog, that's heaviest yeah it's king size, now that is too warm, we only put that on in winter mm it's too warm in summer isn't it? but it's amazing but i mean it's amazing how much heating it retains yeah er well that, well then we decided to get us, er one for summer and we went on the market and i think, was it a nine tog that's all? all, it's a very light one i think it's either nine or six oh i'll tell you where we bought that in market yeah and it were, it were nine ninety nine yeah weren't it? and yeah we find that we put that on in summer and it, it feel, keeps us warm even when weather just goes a bit yeah, yeah you know dodgy that was a sunday market aye that was a sunday market ah this is a big thick thing it is yeah it's warm enough like yeah i'm not complaining and, and what is it? is it, this one that we've got it's fibre stuff in it ah this is fibre that we have on this bed mind you we find that, we find that other one mind you this is easier, i'm sure it is at night alright, that one er i, i did not show him with the, with the fibre and whatnot it's fine, that's alright oh we're warm enough yeah find it's a real when i, when i first came out i bought one at er that'd be about fifty quid somewhere round there, duck down yeah and it's done alright, but all feathers seemed to gone to outside now yeah er, er, although we've shaken it up, we've shaken it up yeah it, they all seemed to stay outside, you know, can't seem to this, this on the small on the, on the spare oh that's a point in there bed, er is a diamond and it's got hollow fibre yeah but i think it's, total value john is only four point five now then, er only point, er, four point five and it's plenty warm enough int it? mm in inside that you know once you're on that system you've got to have a light one and a heavy one yeah because you've to make arrangements for the weather mm, oh that as well we could always put other back in winter, in summer you know yeah but that one on, that big one that there is too hot in summer oh it's a nuisance an'all we keep it on and then we decide oh summer time can't sleep with it, so erm, and yet we've found it's fine mm with this last winter mm my feet are sweating now, but, she seems to have a bug in there or summat, cos it's more like a burning than a sweat, it yeah she seems mm, i'm not surprised are you? the way the weather it's changing no i it's very changey well it's mild this morning isn't it? gonna be warmer today anyway it says yeah lighter on the showers, it's gonna ease off mm that's their forecast anyway well which market did you get it from? i mean main market erm, but he er, i didn't like him like er they all at top they're not genuine are they? they all at top, you can get it up easy enough can ya? well i had a go at it and it, well knowing yeah, yeah it's inside cover it doesn't yeah can't see what quantity is it? is it oh two yard quite a big spread, no it's about that big a diameter and yeah it's obviously scraped on summat yeah it's not bad, it's, it's, but we know it's there that's the only thing yeah remember that morning we bought ours it was in summer and it was a, a pakistani girl it was, yes er she looked er, she looked really to be new at the job i've never seen yeah very young and she's not there now no the stall's not there now, and all the thick one and thins are all alike mm nine ninety nine well i supposed it's not to miss and they're all good quality if it only lasts twelve months all good quality they looked didn't they? yeah and clean very clean, yeah but it's a matter of look well they were wrapped up weren't they? it's a matter of look when you go in the market yeah oh it is int it, yeah er if you go to er, er a major store, if you go to marks and spencers, somewhere like that, it's on a return basis, but with the market it's a little bit here today gone tomorrow that's it, that's it they're like gypsies aren't they? but you can be lucky you see i mean yeah we were lucky with that, with that er, with that one oh yes yeah very fortunate well i wouldn't of taken first one back i er, i mean, it was, wouldn't of bothered me, it wouldn't, had spots that were on it yeah but this is worse mind than that was, but you can, it's obviously oil where that, that she said was blood that and what tog is it? thirteen yes mm and that, that's it yeah that, that's right it is it's like howard in, as same as howard's, well she really wanted oh yeah well we had a blanket on an'all and we took that off yeah well the, that, i should think so an'all by god but you know that one what pauline has on her bed when we go, that's only thin very, very light but you know we, we might feel cold when we get in at first, oh we haven't been in long before it's warm isn't it? warm i just said no, no if you use them as they should be used they're alright mm but er freda would have a blanket on in winter with that, it wasn't necessary you know yeah cos the nearer it is to you the, the warmer it is are you sure you won't have a coffee ken? yes i'm alright thanks, i'm alright when you're on blankets and you've been brought up on blankets er you're used to blankets mm and i, i always felt if we have a change onto this er new system of er, of these quilts, i, i you know, i weren't too sure, but once you've changed i don't think you'd ever want to go back because in winter time when it's a bit cooler and you put more blanket on to keep warmer and then it becomes heavy yeah oh i know they but with this system they're not weight weighty at all, no no, no and i've long feet you see and if i put have me feet straight up like that it er it's pressure on it but them, them old blankets we had some because we need them when they come, i fold 'em yeah and put 'em on camp beds yeah ooh they are heavy them blankets mm, mm and you know we used to have about four on didn't we at queensbury aye john? yeah used to get up feeling tired yeah i never and wash it, and washing them was another problem innit? ah it is it is, it's terrible because i don't think you can get, i don't know whether you can get a, i couldn't get one in my other washer but then well you'll get one in yeah probably would wouldn't you get one in that princess that you got at first? oh yeah, but not in me no, no not in me twin tub i couldn't no betty i remem used to take 'em and wash 'em for me when i first got married i er, well not first she went in hospital for something or other when she had this before that, maybe when the scrapers or whatnot, i thought i'd do a job here i'll wash blankets and i put 'em in near boiling water didn't i? oh i know there's wool in that and the stink i wouldn't of known that i'd of done that yeah the stink, urgh i'd of done that john would i don't think he knows i'd of done that what to put in there do ya? the smell was awful and oh we er give a really good blankets like yeah yeah really good wool blankets, ooh heck cos they last forever don't they? aye they, they would of done they would of if you hadn't put them in a boil wash it was just like a boil,it was a big double it went to about single don't laugh wool is the best, it's the best warming commodity there is yeah it is with clothes it's erm yeah, yeah if you get wool in clothes carpets, clothes anything yeah it were real they were really good blankets my mother had bought them for us for er er wedding present mm, yeah that's, that's a good present isn't it? aye do you remember frank brought, bought us one of that pal of yours yeah oh yeah in the army he bought us, but he worked, he, they owned er, erm well hartleys the er, the knitting wool people of keighley the er, his son i soldiered with him mm there were one or two lads in our unit who were sons of er, of er manufacturing, one was er crawford biscuits you know, i soldiered with him and i don't know if you remember er erm, er but anyway, frank, frank at keighley of course when i got, when we got married he, he came up and got us these blankets didn't he? well he used to visit didn't he? aye he did he used to visit yeah, well we lost contact with him really well you do over the years cos all ya yeah you do really and he never got married did he? and he had a different life from us i think oh a different life totally they, they, they went in different circles from others yeah and they're loners and he were very nice though and when you've got a fam weren't they john? and when you've got a family anyway er you don't you don't you tend to drift away don't ya? yes you do i was big mates with a lad at near gatehead, skipton you know? yeah but over the year we've drifted apart they had a family, we had a family by lord that's a grand place what, oh we used to go regular up on a sunday didn't we to ? oh christ the railway hotel at yeah railway hotel that's right railway do you remember? what did they call your mate then at ? ben oh no, no cos erm we knew somebody called jack there a cricketer he used to play cricket for queensborough his father had a public house in keighley and then, then er when he got married jack he bought a little business in keighley which didn't do so well, so then he went and lived in yeah down shady lane ah that shady lane i know it's a mind you lovely little place my mate lived down that area then he, he moved up to far end keighley end yeah there's a row of houses right on, by top on the, yeah there is right at the far end at the at the other, other side yeah, yeah right at the far end yeah well they're kinda er half semi half terraced they are there yeah there maybe three in a block or summat like that, er he took second from far end and their lawn is high up, up the road you know mm yeah so he dug up the lawn and put a little garage in that's good, that's mm clever on his own like had to move some stuff there then yes he, he, well it was a council house when he moved in and he come to me what'd be, ten, twelve years since he says, i've chance to buy that house he says, they want fifteen thousand he says what do you think? i said grab that house up sharp mm he said do you think so? i said too true, get hold of it it's a new area as well yeah and the view is terrific yeah it looks right out on valley you know mm and the right on down that valley anyway he bought it and he it seemed a lot for buying a council house yes but in the position it was and everything oh yes and now, mm so he got it and it's a real cracker it is, real good house mm the area as well, we've had lots of picnics there aren't we? yes, well it weren't far from where we lived yeah it didn't take long did it? about quarter of an hour at most i think when we started to go there at first there were a fella, a fella from keighley who was a weaver and he bought a bit of land at the side of the er, the side of the chapel, or was it the school? what's it, a chapel or school? it was a gate road wasn't it? it's opposite the park you go, you go into yeah the park's on your left yeah and it's the first road on your right yeah and it's either a school or a chapel there, to you, on your right mm just before the road forks mm and er, you go up that land there and we went quite regularly for picnics there, cos we had, we loved it there well you used to go fishing there didn't you? yes in er one of the well he bought the land and we saw him at different times build his bungalow it's a lovely bungalow now int it? yeah it went right from mm from start er and his son helped him but i think in later on there were a little bit of disagreement with, with regards to who, how much work there was and, but anyway they'd finished the bungalow and er it's grand yes it ought to be it's his house hadn't he? but if you go down that road even further there was er a, a couple there bought one of the houses and er an old one yeah and i don't know what they give for it but it would it would be very reasonable but it's they wouldn't give a lot because it was in a bad a lovely situation, yeah of course people are doing that now well they are buying old houses aren't they? and doing them up eh up, oh aye yeah and that's, that's er well look at that couple up, in the lakes there, they're, they've bought a barn that been done up yeah and it was already done up like and er mm, mm they bought it and moved in and now planning are saying that it, it wasn't a place, they pulled it down and rebuilt it so it has to come down ooh and they've bought it oh dear oh dear that's terrible int it? mm can try and but look couldn't it? come that way er like, they don't seemed to be giving it to 'em, and it was nothing to do with them, they bought it and, and they would have a search done as the reason when you buy houses aren't there? i'd say i'd say that problem here you know it's solicitors that's wrong oh it's the solicitor that's wrong solicitor's wrong, yeah i mean that's what you pay 'em for really mm yeah and apart from that the bloke that sold it must have known cos he he probably, that's why he's, probably why he sold it i think it was in his er his agreement when he made it that it was only er a face up, it weren't to pull down and rebuild they're nice these houses that we've said haven't we john? we wouldn't like to live in them now at our age no the two, we go, i mean yes even the boat on the sands, there's some lovely bungalows there is, yeah but even there, if you haven't a car you're lost aren't ya i mean yeah you're not here, if you can't drive you're alright and you find that you've got to give your car up, you're still near shops and doctors yeah and everything aren't ya? you're not bothering with buses you needn't go anywhere need you? no no just as long as you can walk yeah they're talking about up the dales if you, if you, if you think of the marvellous place that goes around he's got mm but, oh blimey winter time when it's snowing yeah i know you're absolutely lost aren't ya? er we went down valley yesterday and that way you know yeah mm i mean isolated farm houses in yeah they're lovely, they look lovely in summer don't they, you know, yes they do oh they do, yes they do like i mean going back forty seven round there well perhaps you know, forty six weren't it? when that big snow was on it was it, ah, ah forty seven, forty six winter forty six, forty seven aye that's right, yeah i dunno and, and forty three previous to that, oh then it was just wiped off the map you couldn't get to it no way yeah even trains, train station, all they were showing were rudders along station buildings, you couldn't see any buildings so we've never been to station, d'ya know we've never been on the slope and i've, i've oh we went on went past there yesterday i've often said that we go and have a look what in it?, well when we went up onto the roman battlement? no isn't that it? no ah no no no you go go out well the best way, well the way i always go is through barbon, through barbon and then into dent and dane is strung out about five mile or six mile you know it's just er dane in itself is so lovely you get over from barbon the only thing i can think about and then it's through is that, aye, that stone monument in the middle of the square with a bit of a stone aye, aye chisel fall that's cobble street aye cobble street mm well that, well er you carry on from there and you go along well five, six mile, through dane valley and then you come to point of the station, a quick turn left leads up by er yeah and we will look, we'll go there some time cos i'm you is it far from you? oh no no no, well i went today half a day's out and then over to garsdale there er then heading for kirby station at the old cock inn aye then turn left, go cock inn, erm that er, turn that into dane there mm and then where, where the fast ways were looking down onto of it yeah like stopping there in the afternoon cos yeah you often get down the tornados coming, whizzing down, below you, you know you're looking down as they come past yeah, yeah er then up the end that's where we go up to through aye at cas er steven kirby station? yeah er steven aye well you've got we can go that way, yes well you can either yeah and er, it were just ninety five mile and back here mm after that well you consider that er, er quite a journey don't ya? oh aye, i said to john i said well i say well how far we're going cos i'm not keen on going right a long way aye i like to go short get out and have a walk mm a picnic but er, that to me is a long way it isn't, it isn't in a chart, it isn't in the summer well it's a long way, no it isn't when you come the you go you can go from here up to you can go in no, in, in no time, you can be there oh yeah in, in a very short period of time cos as soon as you get on motorway cos we said we'd go to, for some time up to er, oh what motorway john? scotland you know carlisle carlisle aye yeah but i, i, i i can do i could do carlisle that's about an hour innit? but but you really need ah, yeah a bit more daylight so that you can go it more, in the morning and you're not dashing back you can have a full day no he's, er, er a gentleman that's a er, that's a traveller you hear what i'm saying? but i know he's a traveller you hear what he said? no one hour one hour, oh well there you are fast in a car though when you get on the motorway that is mind you that motorway yes but, er i would like to go carlisle mm i'm not fond of carlisle we took us caravan up that way a few years ago i can't remember s what it called s sa what they call the men up there? i don't know john up in carlisle er s oh yes mm we've just been once there i mean er best way for facility, well if, if you're not in a hurry it goes up to lakes don't it? yeah it is well yesterday well we went straight on the motorway on the way back we call at that place where you have in miles street no no mill shop, we went into lancaster, went into lancaster right on the river side on the river side oh parked opposite the yeah you know where the bus yeah over overflow, then we walked into lancaster in to shops and then after that we went under, right, and had our picnic by river mm river so we said well while we're there we'll go in poor shop it was it's just like do er, it were all wallpaper aye i expected to see all kind of things you know yeah, yeah, no it used to be grand, but it yeah did it? were it used to bet better? oh a lot better than it is now oh well it were very poor i thought a lot bigger than it is now aye mm where you go in, now you go into right don't ya? well before you went yes straight in, as you turn the corner you went straight into it and it was all in that building and that end oh well they've cut it down then ain't they? oh they have yeah cos it was just boxes of wallpaper she weren't interested in showing us anything was she? no she wouldn't be no yeah, you, no, you said to her, er is this it? is this all what you have then? well she says what were you wanting? she said, oh he said i wondered about floors you, one room up there, well she said we do, we do sell working clothes don't we? we sell working clothes, there were about two shirts and a towel and a pot towel i can get for about fifty p down there aye on market there wasn't much bottle at all, ah we went in fact another couple went in with us and they came out and they came out sooner than we did sooner than we did and there's another round but i've never been to it i've never been to it though no aye but you're better taking your sandwiches with ya and flask, i enjoy sitting and, and well you waste so much time that's it, that's the secret you do that's the secret looking yeah and then you might not find anything worthwhile no, no mm no i like, i like i'd, i'd rather have a mind you that's with me you know oh i would with you that's, that's that, that she used to live who's it? further down her mother did didn't she? yeah yeah well we'd call her black barbara to de differentiate from other barbara like like she had black hair and aye the other barbara yeah i'd have black barbara and how is she, barbara next door? i haven't seen her yet seemed to be pretty good fettle oh she got over that feeling low? aye said she was didn't she? oh yes, yes she's got over that now, yeah it must be, it must of been tragic for her really i mean you're bound to get depressed aye when you're sat on your own for hours and hours and hours we had a call on friday her mother-in-law, you know michael's mum mm fell thursday night, she got up to go to toilet during night and fell, michael was sleeping there fortunately cos he's working in yorkshire and she got a pain on her elbow anyway in the morning, so he took her to hospital and she'd fractured and they operated on her, same day, two hour operation, i haven't heard anything yet have we, we rang no, no sunday and they were, say they were going down to see her in hospital, i mean that's terrible one arm and living on your own, i don't know how she'll manage yes, yes, aye polly said she'll have to have her up there, have to have her up there for a while she's very low one arm aye, very awkward i mean i mean if, if you live on your own you can't even peel a potato no, no, can't with one hand can ya? no, well she couldn't get a job as a washer up could she? yeah, you're, you're erm ambivalent no she just could not are bad enough innit? ah well that's right yeah you're normal well yes you're putting well i mean how d'ya put your tights on with one hand then? how d'ya put your er, er right you don't realize till it happens you're going you get your dressing gown on and call, but then you can't use your dressing gown properly can ya? only put one arm in oh no everything's round here only put one arm in yeah be round very difficult oh it must be erm and when you're not so young either it's, makes it er more awkward still, although she's, she's erm, she's fairly well int she? she's seventy one but she's very active, yeah she's fairly active, yeah she's very active, mm yeah, brought up on mackintosh's toffees and she used to work at marks ooh the sweets yeah they could eat as many sweets as they wanted aye and she says they got sick of 'em cos they had everything well that's it they're, they're better saying you can have as many as you want because you as many as you want you don't want them now no, no psychological as well as getting fed up with them innit? if they're there you don't want them, it's when you can't have 'em you want it is your daughter keeping alright? yeah she's, just at the moment she hadn't a complaint oh that's good ah, ha, i said touch wood as they say i say what's your trouble today then? here, here, here, here we haven't got one that's marvellous it is isn't it, it's lovely when you know that they're alright last thing was they'd er they'd got a fancy they didn't want er their airedale, their dog is yeah fancy thing yeah pauline has one that, they've made something soft ma it's, well it's er i don't know it's a fancy enamel but it isn't enamel is it? no it isn't enamel no, same type of thing it's a soft thing yeah, well yeah, yeah and it has a or what do they call it? a vegetable thing on one side in the, yeah in the middle yeah that's right and, anyway she was poorly for days and this rita had just come on, poorly for days and they heard this crack, and they didn't think much about it, just as, rita said what you doing? she said i ain't doing anything i'm just boiling potatoes, she said what went crack? she said i don't know, she said there's nothing to crack is it really mm well they'd of been here thought of been desperate for that wouldn't you? yes that's right and it was, that night it was leaking like mm so it was a bit of er struggle to er, to get them to come and look at it and fix 'em up again, well they didn't fix 'em up they, they, they give 'em a new one, they only got it in the sale yeah mm but er they but this time everything was happy, marvellous well pauline's a devil for punishment i would say, she's got both lads at school now you know and she's home all day and she isn't one for sitting around pauline no she likes plenty, you know, and er, she did take a course on baby minding and she passed everything like, she could baby mind mm but she had, they have to have a fence built from the back garden, because there's, there's an opening from the back garden and it's onto the drive and then it's onto the road, even though it is a quiet road mm so she's er, she's waiting for 'em to come to do that, anyway she's er, somebody rang her didn't they and they asked her if she'd have a little boy of four months old, thursdays and fridays all day and she started this week with him, so i said well pauline four months old? yeah four months old and it, i said that's just the way you want them the better aye, yeah put them down and that's it you put them in the pram but she's looked after her neighbour's two children hasn't she? for so many hours a week and she didn't mind at all you know aye no lots of people think well i've got them to school that's it then no more children aye, aye in fact she wanted more children, she wanted more than two children she did, if she'd of been married i think, she was, she wasn't younger married until she was thirty, just yeah over thirty mm she loved children and i think she would of had more because she'd had two miscarriages and she's aye got these two, i think she would of had because she loves children oh she has enough certificates to of gone to teachers' training college, now that, i always feel although i think she's quite happy now, but for myself, for myself and i'm always er tempted by the fact that they always have twelve weeks' holiday you know, i mean in one go the teachers yeah, yeah i think she would of been better as a teacher, because as joan says she is er very taken up with looking after children mm very much so but she went in a library and got the certificate in the library aye, yeah well she, she was, you know there's a period of time where they, they sort of leave the grammar school and the, and the, they don't just know what they, what's gonna happen mm she got the forms from the teachers' training college at er, at shipley near er near where we were yeah they are, she got the forms er but it didn't go and you'd got to fill them in and then it happened with, but then suddenly she came home one day and she said oh she said i've got a job mm so got er job at er at the library and then she seemed to be very settled yeah very settled in the library er she went to the interview er and she said she'd er remembered everything that the teacher had told them about how to present themselves at interviews and she went down and the er, the librarian says well, asked her a few questions and he says sugar? yeah certainly oh yes i, i've look, i'll put some on then for a quick water nature of the play yeah some quick, quick water in he says what do you think you'd have to do in a library and she says she sat, she sat er still you know with her arms folded and all like that and she says, oh she says i think you er collect the books and stamp them and put them back on the shelves and she said they all laughed, but she got the job in opposition to er, a few others you know mm so she got the job and she was quite happy really mm but them lib you're not gonna worry about a saucer are ya? no, no, no being a librarian put your own sugar in it being a, being in a library staff is er, being a librarian is a fairly responsible really oh it is, yeah i wonder how nice it is? do you want any more milk in? no, grand thanks, one of our drivers, he's er, his wife's in this er library here yeah but she's a right library type, miserable as sin oh golly, oh blimey she's all, that one she's always, she's always ready for setting off weren't she? paula was always ready for setting off erm what when she were at home? when she was younger yes oh, oh yes ours, this one, she left her kids and they haven't got a television, she wouldn't have a television in her house no you'd have to be study you know time and that there, ooh i know it's a grand thing is education lessons, but oh thanks joan you want a bit of fun put your own sugar, oh you've got to do here will you have a biscuit look erm no thanks no, no no thanks er malted milk biscuit? no i won't have any thanks we have to invite you up here you know you and freda some evening yeah well when you've, you know when you're passing we haven't aye, aye, had well yeah you know we've been to your house a couple of times and aye, you only had, had a brew the second time you really do at our house oh you get settled in and out you know our life story innit? well in winter you don't do ya? no you don't feel like feel like it in winter time well i don't stay up very late you don't i don't really he went oh well sunday he went to bed and i just sat there i'd rather get up in the morning with cloning of joanna who went to bed didn't she? oh aye some of these f films are ma made people who and i stopped up to watch snooker and it went on until after twelve i saw it were on er after eleven i wouldn't of minded it, but i, i can't stop up at that like did you watch judith chalmers er holiday programme? i saw some of it did you see that boat? oh aye, aye joan if that repeated if that is repeated we must, we must watch that, that's i fell asleep, i were asleep and i it were on the most marvellous, it's the most wonderful ship i've ever seen, ever seen yeah, aye it were great weren't it? it didn't look possible to no, no to get the damp the er freighters and everything on oh the stuff they had on to eat didn't it? aye terrific mind the prices weren't so bad either for four days, four hundred and odd did it show scotland first? it showed it did show scotland first yeah well i remember that then just sleep overcame me and i, i closed me eyes and the next thing i knew john says well i wished you'd of been awake to see that it's unbelievable that she was resting be thankful for judith chalmers i were resting before coronation street rest and be thankful oh yes, oh yeah, she's good int she? she's very good judith she wouldn't be on if she has i wished i had a job like that when i were young by george, going abroad and well this morning i were listening to er roy normal on the, the welsh radio programmes and he was talking to er various people and he told one young woman who had been in a certain area in world where they were filming, er and she'd gone to see this filming with alan ladd and all these, you know, and anyway she goes she went into the er local chip shop and the er assistant for the film, the labourer came in and ordered, ordered forty packet of chips and er and he was saying oh it were for film you see, so she thought i'd go down and see what's happening, so she went down to the pier end and they were all er doing the performance and er, the producer says now all you people there, he says that's interested, he said would you all go onto the pier, he says and talk he says and read, make it, you know make it interesting, so they all piled onto the pier and er, they filmed what they had to film with the pier in the background and all the people that were on the pier, so this girl was on the film you know, then after it had finished, he thanked everybody, he says now then don't walk off the pier, he says will you as you're going off walk past this, the table at the end there and their bloke give them three pound ten a piece oh she were going with this lad through and it's the easiest three pound, three pound ten i've ever earned good though that int it? i'd like to be an extra aye not for the money just to be, just to see how they go on oh in coronation street we could of been in that could, we could of been in er emmerdale farm oh yes there were when we went to emmerdale farm, we went down to the pub you know and er i saw the old vicar and er, who else did we see? we saw, we saw one or two others that were involved, that were involved in it, and er i were talking to the, one of the young producers that were there and er and i said if you're short of some ac actors i said me and my mate will be actors you know, oh she said you're dressed just right i'll tell ya frank you'd bought caps on flat, flat, flat caps er, she said you're just right for it she said, but er she said we've already finished filming for today, which they had, she said but if you come tomorrow, she said we're er, we're filming the dog race that's right yes i remember that she says and you can be in that mm but of course we didn't go no well we were just staying at our daughter's at the time er yeah er, a while back er we'd run into morecambe and well er a young lad i think it was for this, you know the series er for, pastimes, pastimes pursuit, you know er fishing and er mm yeah, yeah one thing and another like, he were was one of the like mm so, we went into morecambe and he asked us to go back in the farm again with this ladder yeah nobody else yeah lock the door with the fastener and run back down and he had his head out the window running in and getting up and yeah and he had a crowbar and that well i never did anything all i did was stop in me van yeah i hadn't to put me head out, i hadn't to be seen and just er oh that's sad isn't it? er i'd want to be seen if it were only back of, back of yeah anyway when we left he says here er fiver, got a tenner between us that's very nice that's very good jealousy, jealousy, see what money does don't ya? oh oh you're going then well you see going back in them days a fiver and a tenner were a very nice yeah wasn't it? yeah, yeah it was that and er, i remember working on clapham station as a junior there was a plane crashed up on or whatever you call it, right up above clapham station, there's a light on top, miles from anywhere that's worth going to see an'all aye, so i i were at er i went up, i wasn't and er we got to a car jack that was going over to somewhere where this flame would be you know and a bloke, a policeman's coming back, where you going ken? i said i'm gonna have a look at this plane crash he says, you needn't bother yourself he says this is about most there is and he so i went back and a bit later the phone went, er the bill from the publisher he was, but he also did a bit for one of er diaries or summat like that i know you see, can you give me any information? so i told him all i found out like, when he came down a few days later he gave me two fifty, er two pound ten as it was then you know i was amazed at yes all i thought like i was passing a bit of gossip, but he paid me for it he said any time you see anything or hear anything that's of value at all, come and tell us and we'll pay you every time that's very good int it? mm, mm what's that the dalesman? well he was dalesman editor, but dalesman editor, mm it wasn't for the dalesman it was for er yeah some local paper or even, might of been daily express or summat like that you see mm er they were agents for these papers for any news yeah oh i knew dalesman editor very well well strange enough we have a connection with the dalesman editor mm it's only a very tenure, but it is there a neighbour of ours were very er keen on looking after animals, er stray animals and all like that emma , emma , well she was also a poet, er she'd write poems mm however, however, however you judge these things are entirely up to those who are right and those who are receiving them, but i thought she was very good, she wrote some poems about us really yeah er just after the course, which described, described it was all described in she'd go to these mm affairs and stand up and recite them oh yeah yeah yeah she was so good well she used to write she used to send these to the erm dalesman man, that's right the dalesman, yeah that's right yeah mm editor dalesman that's right and she'll, and er, and he what, he didn't er, he didn't take to her i don't think well it, i think he kept some, but in, he didn't, she didn't get paid a certain price no you, you she wasn't no, there was some funny business about it she wasn't very cheap well can i say yes so i would just say you would like to know the opening times please cos i remember once when they asked me at work to deliver the annual speech you know the man that asked me he says er, you know, they've gone round everybody else and nobody else would do it and would i do it, and i said good lord, that were my first reaction, and i realized like all the company secretaries lo lord, so i did very well there didn't i? i got the right no i would just ask, say, you know, just say you want to make enquiries, cos they're going to be open on the second of april yeah and if, you could say that you've got last year's opening times er as long as the weather's decent really, i know we're only gonna go for three days so where going to stay? well at alberston at alberston it's not very far away and then we're gonna go from there to er there are one or two other places around worth looking at yeah erm so we'll see how it goes, anyway thank you very you're welcome thank you very much for your information you're welcome and i'll mention your name to him, when i have a word with him i'd better be moving yeah, well fair enough ken gonna do wonders this morning i ain't done nothing no well i didn't do anything yesterday no, good, no, no change me mind about them them togs and whatnot aye it were joan really that put me right there it were thirteen as opposed to fifteen yeah cos they don't go any higher yeah, cos freda said freda decided er they don't go any higher i no don't think she can't, she didn't see a fifteen no, they not go any higher john no she got a thirteen anyway but that four, that four point five we had was plenty warm mm enough yeah it's not feather well freda reckons this, that feather of ours is beginning to stick together and they're not, well i suppose pillows are yeah are like that, but pillows have your head sweating on 'em at times aren't we? yeah erm when it's hot, they do go a bit peculiar in pillows, they go stained don't they? yeah i don't think pillows keep you warm well i think you want to, with pillows you want to be changing them every now again don't you? oh yeah definitely aye they're mm we what we did once we, we got some more and changed it, it were a waste of time yeah cos it it were just as bad after yeah the feathers have a certain length of life and that's it, they've had it, and it isn't worth the mess anyway there's a lot to that fibre isn't there now? this you do get a lot of fibre now yes, the, yeah well, well it's like a spongy now yeah yeah yeah we have two that belonged to me mother and they're very good yeah they don't lose their no, no bounce at all mind you, mind you, that, the, the, i think the, those that you're talking about joan the good ones the not, the cheap they are firm yeah they are firm and i think that you have a feather one haven't you? well i always have a feather one and i, i have yeah two pillows and i'm not bothered about underneath yeah no but i always like a feather for me head yeah i think feathers are more yielding aren't they? well i've er, i've er fibre i've a fibre underneath and a feather cos, when i had a fibre i don't know why, but me ears seemed to be deaf every morning yeah mm and they seemed bunged up you know yeah seemed er, as i've washed my head and it wasn't getting out with yeah i mean mm on this anyway i, i finally, i didn't like it at all, but now i'd done, i have me feather back i'm alright i was like deaf when i got up every morning. we went er, since we've came here we went to stay with edith when her husband died, we went to stay overnight oh blimey oh, and they'd been married, what she's ten years older than you had been married yeah, yeah nearly fifty years hadn't they? yeah would of been yeah and they'd the same bed that that they'd got married in yeah they, they were probably given to them secondhand an'all look i'm not joking it, it was the same mattress and it was a flock mattress one of them oh you used to ba you used to check it and go like that check it move it over get off and the pillows were flock as well yeah and, and she's ever so nice is edith, but i mean oh wonderful they're not short of money either no it's just their way, it's a way i mean m=mm, mm everybody has different ways don't they? yeah very kind, very clean and she's asked us to go and stay and i said to john i wouldn't stay in that bed again well you you get cos you get up and ya ooh ooh but your head still on the pillows, i'm not too bad on the, on the mattress, but i must have something yeah yeah soft underneath, might it john terrible terrible is you, you just can't, you can't describe to people no you can't no, no unless you, you know mind you we slept mother-in-law was we, we had the night i was shattered weren't we, but we mother-in-law always had them flat beds you know and yeah it's you're alright like, you could make yourself a nest in 'em and you was yes i know you're like a bloody mole aha and that's a good description is that but when you made 'em, you, like kneading bed didn't ya? oh aye, yeah, you used to shake it up and then bash it about and, er and we once went to scotland, then breakfast in it, when pauline was with us didn't, weren't it john? aye all them years since, and she was a widow and, and she was er ever so nice, lovely home and clean, but the bed was, it, it wasn't just flock it were part taylor was it her that baked for us as well? aye did she bake for us well she were nice, well they were all nice at that time aye they were weren't, when you went bed and breakfast in yeah they took ya in, into their home and, and they made you feel like part of the family that's right, yeah they wed wednesday morning joan now so, this is me er i've only two days really to get some more recordings that's right, yes, mm i shall, i'm gonna take that letter on and come back here, just out to post okay are you going down now? yes, well i'll have to, i'll have to just get me boots on yeah, okay, well i'll wait and i'll go, well i'll post it in the centre i mean originally where we came from you know they er, the snows and er and the cold weather we were eleven hundred feet above sea level where was that at? we were at queensbury it's we it's near, near halifax anyway in yorkshire oh it's at queensbury i didn't know on the pennines on the pennines it would be i know you're not from this area though are ya? no cumberland ah cumbria oh i've, i've er morning morning morning, it would be, be cold up there well we, as i say we were eleven hundred feet above sea level and er and we were, really moved here because er i could not stand the er, the bad weather no er, i mean, i worked near er the factory where i worked was near aye to where we live so it was convenient to stay there that's right while i were working yes and i said as soon as we got the opportunity of moving away we would do, and we searched all over the erm, when it come to, went into lincolnshire, went into wales aye we went up to yo er bridlington and all like that and then we y=yes and here finally plumped on this really yeah and yet you're never cos you've a good house as well aye it is a good one, yeah, it's very similar as i was telling my friend the other day to what we had before yes er the house itself is better yes it's just the surround, although we have more surround, well no not more surround here, but it's a different layout yeah as other surround, as other house was better cos we had lawns all the way round you see oh i see but it was still a semi like this that's right mm yes it's er we were lucky to get this because chap er wanted to get out into a house really and he had one offer er from down south and they'd put in and looked and they er and they sort of bo hadn't followed it up, so no well houses today they are stuck like they are aren't they? aye oh i think anybody that's wanting to sell to move is, is in trouble really aye, oh they are like yeah to buy a not too bad have you had done your shopping? trouble with your car? have you had a painted wing? er it's the undercoat ah erm, he's seeing to a bit of rust for me yeah so, that's the undercoat, but god knows when it'll get erm sprayed properly cos you've got to have some decent weather who will look, who will yeah, who have done that for ya? oh martin martin is, ah yeah it's not an easy job that you know no, no, he's very good with cars though no he knows, well he knows no a few bits you know i know that whenever i've tried to put paint on any cars that we've ever had, it's never looked right has it? no no no and it's a professional job you need to know what you're doing don't ya? yeah professional's job well he, he borrows like, well he's gonna borrow like a compressor off this yeah other guy, you know, he does it in garages, he's done it quite a few times before on cars he's had himself, so oh it's a technique, a relation of ours used to be a car sprayer you did pauline's once didn't you? i did when she were at home and it was perfect weren't it i do for her it was, beautiful and then we had an accident with our car door, who we took it up to erm, up to carnthruft there and they did it for us and it, it, it's just disappeared as a hole innit? oh yeah or the dent yeah it's, it's worth, they're worth doing when, when you get any damage well if you don't cover rust or rust up it gets worse and worse yeah that's it yeah, make sure they're quite all free from rust and yours yours is out in all weathers isn't it? yeah so you he's got a few bits, there's still another few bits to be done you know but it just looks such a mess do you need the light on? do you need the light on? yeah i think you will just pop it on then just looks such a mess when you're going round a bit like that but i'm afraid it'll have to do oh they're nice looking cars them aren't they? they're okay, i think they're a bonny little car yeah you know as far as little cars go, yeah mind you i'm all in favour of small cars aren't we joan? we like small ones rather than yeah rather than big ones yeah they're better for parking aren't they small ones? oh yeah, yeah you can't park, a big car's an advantage if you're going a long way yeah, yeah definitely but small cars are marvellous in lancaster and we would have er, a smaller than one we have wouldn't we? oh we would the caravan not as yeah we would mm not as powerful anyway how well much d'ya want? erm, quite a lot off the top you know so that i can just brush it up yeah and er, not, i don't want the back of me ears showing there right, you don't er, and if you, not quite as short as you did last time, you see when you combed it up last time it was right up to the top just a little bit you want it to cover yeah i don't mind cover it up a little bit, but really it was, you know, you know how it does it, it springs up doesn't it? yeah er and er, and coming over different like you've done, like you know it's round right yeah that looks super what's that then? that painting oh it's as flat as any, any, you know there's no, no irregularities in it at all are you going to get the same colour as your car then? oh yeah you can, you can usually match it up, yeah you've gotta be careful ah cor that's an expert job is that oh i'll tell him that oh well he yeah it is will be pleased to know if you tell him that well i've, the number of times i've tried to paint it, paint it, it just doesn't work, i've even had those small cans you know yeah you know, but, you, not only have you got to get the right colour and everything, you've got to hold it the correct distance away from the metal that's right, yeah you've got to keep your hand moving er but there's a temptation to try to er put more on so that it is thicker you know, but it doesn't work that way you know yeah it's, it's fair do all together anyway i can't see me ever painting a car again hmm no, the mess get 'em done for ya, you used to do a lot didn't you er car maintaining you used to do it all yeah i took a course on car maintenance mm very handy as well, that's a good idea it came in very handy for you well it did because once you know we went over the moors mm and we parked up er the top side of malham and the car wouldn't start oh hell so, you know, i looked under the bonnet, i couldn't understand it at all tt, er, so i eventually got a lift and got a ride down into malham and er, went in the telephone box there mm and rung the a a, so as i got through to the a a man i says erm, you know, i says i, where i was parked and all like that and where i was stood and the chap says oh i'll get a, a van up to ya as soon as i can, but i says wait a minute, i says my car's just arrived and joan was the mechanic, he lifted bonnet up and touched something and you brought it down didn't you? oh did you? yeah yeah i don't know how i'd dared drive down them narrow roads no yes i did, it started going, i don't know what i did but it started going it started well when we got it home i realized it was the battery lead that was just a little bit of lead oh that's all it can be yeah something silly like yeah in fact i'd say eight times out of time that's all it ever is yeah something silly you know yeah like your, your plug leads are, just one's popped off or something or it's gotta bit loose something like that the a a man did laugh didn't he? oh you wouldn't hear him cos i had the phone no, no well oh he did laugh, he said you'll never live that down anyway so we went you both wandering you want a start down in the car ah, so we rode home and that was it delighted i bet you felt a right mechanic then didn't you? yeah it's magic touch you've got to have with cars mm mm i know a lot more about cars than i have, i, i never used to know nothing about cars but yeah just watching martin and seeing what you're doing and yeah you know, if the worse comes,tr putting your jump leads on and things like that mm i mean i didn't even know how to do anything like that really no but it's all very, very handy to know well it pays you to know oh it does because you're out in it aren't you all day? yeah well that course i went on you know, there was er, there were, there were, there'd be about twelve in the class and there were two young women in the class yeah er cos i think there's more women drive now than ever they used to yeah oh yeah and of course you've got to be a bit careful as well when you hear all these things on the motorway oh and whatnot, haven't you? i say so that's probably why they go in for more of these courses things but you can get very dirty messing about with cars oh yeah, i know he gets black i'm sure could you could you change a tyre louise? could i change a tyre? mm no, no you'd just have to look well i'm saying no, but i've er stand at side of car and look sad and pitiful and somebody might stop then well actually i'd, i would know how to do it, but whether i'd have the tools on me or not, just jack it up on one of them thingies yeah and then erm one of them thingies one of them thingies, one of them jacks, and then you've got one of them, i don't even, i don't know what they're called but i've seen it before well er thingies and articles and whatnots they're all they're all valuable tools them as long as you know what the whatnots is yeah as long as you know what they're used for yeah then that there and, you know well yeah i suppose really i would be able to thingy if, if i was really stuck and i had the, the tools, which, i wouldn't have you see, but if i did have the tools there, then yeah i would be able to do it cos i've seen martin doing it quite a few times, so mm oh yeah jack it up take the, the bolts off, pull it off, put it back on again and screw it up. russell's wife across here does it, don't she joan? oh yes she seems very good she's very efficient isn't she? she gets her head in the bonnet and yeah fiddles about with it yeah, she does very efficient still i can look efficient underneath that bonnet, but whether i am or not anybody can, anybody can anybody can i know i mean even me i could if i lifted it up oh style is half the job int it really? oh yeah, looking as if you know the business right i'll leave you to it yes okay, right, a bit better when you see me no deliveries yet then for no it's er it came today and it had its balance on its ticket and i've rung them up and er yeah it's due in the middle of next week oh good yeah i, er, i think when we get it as well i'll ask steven to come and put it on because it's er right it needs drilling doesn't it? it'd probably need drilling yeah through the tiles that's right surface mounted aye that's right, cos i'm not, i haven't got the equipment really to no it it is a bit of a job yeah just in case you crack a tile and if you crack a tile that's right you're worse off still aren't ya? that's right absolutely that's right, yeah, it's a great attraction you can do as you please yeah, yeah do what you want if you wanna buy summat have it, don't feel yeah it pull a bloody big just let it give yours paper have a little bit of here and there you know that's right yeah, aye if you go back into the system where they had at blackpool where er reginald dixon used to play mm for where they are and people used to go and see it and go and enjoy them and if you want to erm, if you went into wales and on that way there was, who was it, it's albert you know yeah, aye yeah you know you used to go in, no it's scarborough well the, we used that bandstand there yeah it's in park now in manchester what? what? bandstand what's gonna happen to that now? every sunday pull it down, every sunday bloody night and saturday afternoon, bloody bandstand were going yeah good hour, let's all sit round listening to bloody band on a sunday night it's only to, lancaster to go in bar for twenty five pound, there were five to is that right? aye, i'm going back a lot of years ago i don't know i don't know yeah aye, aye not anyway, we, our independent is jacked it in so somebody or other's gonna take it over, gonna try and get aye in now conservative, so, but you see possibly whatever you want, whatever you want to do, whatever you suggest to your councillor it never gets anywhere, it never gets anywhere who'd be on the, who would be on the bloody council with any real bloody business initiative well i, i i mean when i was a boy young willy carton all the business men of the bloody town yeah you heard they'd get something for themselves but you heard they'd get the town something an'all i agree with that i agree with that your public earning not a lot of bloody i agree with that how can a man run a town when he got to go er, to work for a fucking boss aye, yeah seven days a bloody week, how can he? he can't, he can't, yeah, no, no d'ya know what i mean? where's his brains ah? eh? well there is definitely something wrong because, because a place like this something wrong should, should attract visitors and things should be going and i don't care how much you have, you have you have the bonny little bay in england exactly, well you i mean you can come here and you can er you can travel up travel anywhere , anywhere, yeah if wanted to go further south exactly i don't know what the job is but it makes you wonder how it's all gonna finish up really whether there's gonna be a bust up or what or well i shall tell ya how they gonna, how are they gonna go on with this sale of land that the council have sold some land to the council and the police have been looking into it well i don't know what that is eh, just a bit of weird, weird job innit? aye it is he said he won't tell will he what he's done oh well you see he was doing he's been able to get round it really, it might well be above board, but the police have been looking into it well i would think it wouldn't be half, but then i don't know owt about it so it's no good me saying, but take, taking the type of the woman i, i think i would think it would be above board i, i, i think it, it, were short of some honest dealers now oh definitely i mean there's a lot of dishonest dealers, a lot of people oh in it for a, for a couple of years to get as much as they can and get a little shop here and they charge as much as you can and they get the grant to open the shop up and then they close it down a couple of months but look at where they aye, that's right, yeah, yeah you think they'd have a or what? if i bought a thing i wouldn't want another man and, and, and look at responses no, no no that's true stop gabbing when i bought oh hiya alright? when i, when i bought bloody you never to help me out did ya? no, no you bought it and bought it, that's it, not same as they do with yeah with them looking for bloody sponsors unheard and them looking for bloody sponsors eh? aye that's right i mean you want bubble, there's only one thing wrong with it, i said to my lad many a time i said the trouble is with the world today everybody wants too much money for doing what they have to do, that's why things are dear er, i agree with ya, i agree with ya that's what it is yeah they do that there's only one lot of bloody people ever started this and that's the bloody union i agree again i totally agree with ya that's what has started it it's a bit double sided really i mean some of the how are ya? oh not so bad you're looking well no wonder the women get tired having to crouch them up and down like that she didn't know me, i know her well ah she just lost her husband and that was why i never said oh dear, it's bad luck that int it? yeah, it happens to everybody you know aye it does the other way round an all some times but that's what's the, that's the trouble i think with the council today. i mean the council in our house today, the council and he's told the other council, one isn't working, well he's on a good job somewhere, he said well what's one hundred and twenty pound a week? yeah one time yeah so the other guy said ooh er, ooh er, he can't he said i wish i had a hundred and twenty pound a week right i said that's done with you a bloody lot i said, a hundred and twenty pound a week that should be able to make do with a hundred and twenty pound a week easily easily eh? eh? easily, easily, easily easily but then again you see they go out they think nothing of spending forty quid up there at the place on friday night, saturday night well they're talking about talking about children getting five pound a week spending money oh saturday penny, saturday ha'penny we used to come here oh yes on that bottom end down by the back there, we used to have a full weekend, me and wife and youngster for a fiver nine of 'em yes and you used to give us a lovely meal every night aye an'all, five pound aye lovely people can't understand that can they? bed and breakfast half a crown oh well there you are you see bed and breakfast half a crown, aye we stay, when we we're in yorkshire all oh the apprentices in, in mill where we were, we were all bound together aye we'd go down the station, went pub, there's er, i think were two and seven pence i'm not right sure, but that is worth by the prize money down, and there were a trip planned, you'd to go from queensbury and you used to go through to blackpool ah and then it used to turn back half past four in morning well it would do train, train never went back it always went so far and stop yeah then it went a bit further and stop, and then we used to be walking up the, but that were it, half a crown you could go to bradford from here that's it stop at every station couldn't we? aye that's, right, that's it, that were us half a crown and met and sixpence to get in and half a crown to, to winter gardens how do ya qualify if you see people er at yeah our age who's saved up, er how d'ya qualify that price with today's prices, cos every pound you save then, is er, is worth nowt today is it? that's when i was on the this morning, i went across there and i got ice cream that's right, yeah when i was a lad i could have seventy for them, i sat on there and i licked it up, er, a good afternoon, i was just having a break by sands, i said when i was a lad i could have seventy ice creams that's right yeah right yeah, it is the price of one it's unbelievable it is unbelievable, yeah it is innit? it's all because of this change of money you see and then when we get on to the new you'll, it'll go wrong again mm it'll go wrong again no, you know you won't no well aye, we just carry on, we just enjoy what we, what we want to do and er, we don't bother i mean, me and wife walk up and down here oh and joan says well i'm not bothered about pier, i'm not bothered, we like this bay and we can do what we like that's it, yeah and that's all there is to it, but you can work yourself if you want to oh you could, yeah but it just means having trouble with er windows, er smoking house you know do what? the, the windows, smoking house oh have ya? what's up with ya? well they might be a friendly, oh i don't really know but er he's so busy you see and he's busy all kinds of day and night, now then, we asked him a while ago to be more careful when he was switching on the freezer units at night because they were waking people up, we asked him er a while ago if he'd be more careful learning up at six o'clock in the morning because the chain and that we couldn't sleep in the morning like, and all disturbing us all like that aye, aye anyway we, we had a petition that when it came up that er, that the new e e c rules were coming in that they would, they'd going to have to have a clean way if you are you are and a dirty way out you know oh yeah er other way round and you with a psychopath aye now then the e e c said this should of happened so we, we got a petition up and i thought, we got, well i didn't but the lads got over two hundred signatures and they must of been er two letters went to the corporation and everyone was talking er critical aye and all was accurately, now if it was done really with the hope that the council and winder would get together and come to some decent arrangement and at the other side of er lancaster er down by the down there right behind the behind the hillside well that was for sale, that part it belongs to the council aye now then, if the council could, could've come to some agreement and put in there, it would of made it right for us, now, you see we've done so before, this is what i don't like about he, he applies for planning permission does er the notice was no bigger than six inches long and four no inches high and it were that's mike bouncer oh is it oh i didn't know about that we should of taken it up then shouldn't we? anyway i'd of kept him in a bit longer what they're talking about is going to blackpool aren't they? well no, now you see, now is, what's happened is this tt we argued er the case after we saw the notice, but we only saw the notice about a week before it went into com into committee, so we'd only a very short time to get everything organized, well we got letters and this petition, we sent it in to the council, stanley came round and talked to one of the young men round our place, not like that, but he was saying oh we'll do this, that and the other, but when he came round and now we know they'd lobbied all the committee that were good and they knew it was gonna be passed, they knew before they went in it was gonna be passed yes it was done in a very un-run way, because the notice, the notice was, was er it'd be up about a couple of days and then it'd come down, you see, so it didn't give anybody a lot of chance, but anyway now it's been passed you see it goes ahead and that's all there is to it, he, he hasn't start doing it yet but no it'll never be moved from there, but what an opportunity they had, they could of, they could aye, yeah said well if the e e c say it has to be done why don't you'll never move it now then what, no i don't think so, the e e c should of be, should of said well if it has to be moved if it's oh yeah environmental an'all and the council say it's environmental you're likely well i've a to give it a bit of something to help us to move it well i haven't always but it's a mystery well i haven't always worked here what the, what you the flu? eh? has it been cold or? oh aye cold and, ooh round here oh and me stomach and me chest oh i've been badly, i have, i've had for three times yeah wife's had, wife's even poorer, i've been er, i've just finished them antibiotics on er yesterday morning aye i had eight, eight a day, four of a morning and two other that's a meal innit? eight a day four, aye, i had two of a morning and i had eight a day i had and no missing well i wanted to get it ain't up to european standard isn't that no, no, but, no, no oh no it isn't, no no but there wasn't said at the council, they said that they realize that what there has to be done can't be done so, so quickly, you see the past in what er back end of october it's always been a slaughterhouse all my life that, all, all my life there's been one, young girls use them, use some of them food shops round here yeah all my life there's been a slaughterhouse yeah all my life that the whole council agreed it should be moved eh? the whole council agreed it should be moved they all agreed with it er eleanor said it should be moved but i think it it is not to be if, if, if they go into the common market rate, ee standard or summat it's bloody new job we'd have to be, gotta go to blackpool this year well it's engineer that has the, has it all run now aye it's up to him whether it's, whether they say it's right or wrong i think, i think what the council said is if they, if they want it, the thing shifting, they are strong enough to get it shifted if they, if they, if they really feel that the things rot, you see up in the dales they, one chap built a house and er, and they said they had to pull it down because it wouldn't fit in with, of no but they, but they told him he'd have to pull it down, so yeah, but this job's just a bit different innit? i think, i think just a little bit different aye wind is in such a big way and if he goes to the planning appeal and one thing or something, it'll skin this bloody, it'll, it'll skin this bloody town of course it will, we've planned enough, oh yes, certainly, what they doing with, what, what they do with them, them, making them camps and gypsy camps yeah, yeah what they doing down there? how much it's gonna cost us for an appeal yeah an appeal goes into a hundred thousand pounds you know yeah, yeah you know that? yeah, yeah oh bloody does that and that's that's not on is it really? eh? that's not on that really where where do all that money go for the fee? solicitors and i, i don't know who the hell gets it land up, up there, it took, it took put the bill in, it's next, it's next, we need this next two or three bloody month and i was on about this and i was on about that ev it's possible this is what a lot of them going and getting, you don't want it habitats, there's enough bloody habitats up and down flowers growing out, i said well i said what's to stop me from taking a bloody plough and ploughing all the bloody flowers up yeah i said it's my bloody land that it don't matter what i do that's right, yeah oh yeah, yeah, yeah you know but er, there are you get the money and pay for 'em that'll be all the . i thought you know, i did think when they were talking, when the council they were talking about spending a lot of money behind the station eh? er, thinking of spending a lot of money behind the station and building the supermarket and ploughing it all up, that car park, and then putting the information centre in the old, old i did think you know when i, when we go around and we look at some of these houses like barratt houses and all like that, i thought that area would of been better off knocking into houses and then you see they would be able to get the community charge of the houses, but as it's gonna happen now the council's gonna have a lot of responsibility one way and another with er they gonna have to they gonna have to pass a lot of land to build houses on to get the bloody rev revenue back in the town yeah d'ya know that? they are that they are that, because i tell you what it is, i don't know they don't seem to be interested in making money, they seem to be interested in spending it to my mind i could be wrong you know well it's a weird bloody job this yeah a weird job altogether a weird job medieval for your holidays then living in a place like this eh? yeah oh spain do ya go there ? aye, aye me lad has a place at spain has he? oh that's good aye, aye that's what they've got aye. i like, i like to go down to in kent aye well, well we are er, we are, we like this country and aye we've been to france and we've been to, we've been to er er we might go to france in another four er about i would say spring time yeah yeah that's right you know i like france do you? well, we did very much so, we went, actually go, went and stayed with erm, with er a chap that we knew really aye which made it er very reasonable, very cheap really, we took us car there and that, but he's coming back is this chap now aye we had bother we've, i, i had a car tyre burst, i had a heck of a job getting one alright, how's mother-in-law right? the same that's a councillor yeah matt oh look there see him now oh he looks young, i don't know, i went in doctors, i went in doctors this morning for a prescription did ya? and er the second door on, you, it opened and the doctor came out and called for the next person to come in, she didn't look to be above forty year old nay by gawld she did look young ah, er i said to joan i said well when we came here five years ago, i'm glad we didn't get her, by gawld she did look young oh i, i, i, i'd one you know, oh i'd one up, oh i'm going back a few years now i had a hiatus hernia and that sounds nasty eh? that sounds nasty oh they won't, they won't do it unless go in hospital, you get cut from there yeah to there hiatus, hiatus hernia, ooh terrible you're stitched all inside ooh it's like you could sit down to a beautiful tea tonight and enjoy it and then you could sit down to your breakfast in morning, one bite and that was you finished yeah, sick it was your puddings yeah your gullet were ripped yeah and your puddings, say that's your gullet, that like that, where your hiatus hernia is where you ripped your stomach and your stomach goes in like that and it stops it going down oh aye you wonder what it like a bit of a flu er? eh? like a bit of a flu? aye, ooh but i'll tell what it was bloody awful, i wouldn't, i wouldn't have another, mind i was only about forty, forty seven, forty five since when he had that mm in blackpool, in blackpool three weeks you're a bit stronger to eh? counteract it then wouldn't ya? when you're younger you're oh aye a bit stronger ooh but you couldn't stay, i was like this for twelve month look aye pull all your ribs out like that with your cage yeah oh bloody awful, bloody awful, but, well i should go now yeah i'm gonna go through arndale and back home now i've just been to a friend's house and he's given me a nice cup of tea and a little drop of brandy and that i did enjoy it oh by jove, that's i'd enjoyed it nowt, nowt to beat then is there? tarrah now i'm going are you going this way? i'm going through arndale oh aye,ah point of view today because we have actually finalized that and that's the reason for the, the amended recommendation. right, are you happy with that? oh, i'm sorry, mr wants to speak, sorry. thank you chairman. briefly, er i think that explains why we haven't got the erm item mentioned in paragraph seven. it does indeed, yes, sorry i should have mentioned that yes erm, this is something that i've spoken with about over a long period and what really has concerned me is that we've two red signals, both facing the traffic and children and blind people could be crossing thinking the traffic had held up, and when i or detecting we rely on our own engineers maybe going round that way, maybe the police or public reporting it. that doesn't seem to me to be a very satisfactory way of detecting that these systems weren't working and with such complex systems as we've got such as the system, it would take one person quite a number of minutes, if not hours, to check all the lights so i very much recommend this system and i should i suppose declare an interest when you start to talk about bulbs right, thank you. is that recommendation agreed then? sorry chairman. just a very quick point. could we also look at the actual time that's on crossing signals. sometimes you hardly get any time to cross the road before the actual lights turn, and particularly the handicapped and the blind yeah, okay, thank you. i'm not taking any more on that thank you. we have agreed the recommendation. we will bear that in mind. thank you mr . erm, item sixteen, the on-street parking supply and management contract. you want to say something about this one as well? i would like you please to refer to the county secretary in the recommendation on page seventy three with the county surveyor. i'm sure he'd rather let the contract. page seventy three yes, the county secretary seems to harbour these wishes to become the no, no, that's not fair. well you might have thought it was nice okay, is that recommendation agreed? agreed agreed, thank you. item seventeen erm the urban grass cutting contract. now this is a very interesting one because we are always under great pressure to increase the number of cuts etcetera. have you gotta change this one as well? yes er it's not my fault though, this one. right, shall we let the county secretary tell us what she wants to change. i'm not the county secretary sorry about that but it's just you're representing him yes, i do represent him. erm, mr explained the reason for changing this but basically it's to, to swap us again and that it will read that for one, that for ninety four to ninety eight the standard of grass cutting be seven occasions per year and the county surveyor in consultation with the chairman be authorized to accept tenders from suitable contractors and the contracts be let to commence on the first of march nineteen ninety four. and secondly, i think the second one is exactly the same as it stands madam chairman. right, thank you very much mrs . right, i've got mr no, oh, i've got oh sorry, er i've got mr and then mrs . thank you madam chairman. i never thought today i would sit here and criticize very severely er, grass cutting in borough council, and i see their contract is up for renewal next year, is about the most disgusting grass cutting you could ever wish to see. i think i talk for the whole of when i say this, erm, the disgusting way that borough council are doing grass cutting. there is part of that grass cutting probably due to the fact that our pavements are also covered in grass, some of them as much as two foot on either side, and you've got two foot down the middle, going like that, where the grass is growing and has not been cut back since nineteen seventy four. er, now the county really ought to look at this problem of grass growing over the pavement but the cou borough council are using the shields that are not capable of cutting grass edges, grass verges. th you drive along a massive machine, probably doing more damage getting up and down the kerbs a and everything else. they are going along at vast speeds, and i say vast speeds, they're twenty miles an hour over the grass and you can imagine how much they're cutting. the also the big rotary blades on 'em are throwing all the grass over the pavement and all over the road and eventually finishes up all down the drains. i would to our officers they should not grant another contract to borough council until they start to use the correct machines for doing the work and i hope that that message now has got across to the cou county surveyor and he really ought to be talking to borough council to find out what they're doing about it. right, thank you mr . mrs followed by mr erm, thank you chairman. well erm i entirely agree with most of what mr has said. it is absolutely appalling. the whole trouble, i think, started when the districts were formed in nineteen seventy three, i think district council to seventy seven, but it's always been a problem. erm, first the district did it and erm they didn't want it so then it was decided to have, to share it with county and that was a disaster too and they did so many cuts each a year and then county took it over. it's never got any better. erm, the only time it was really good in my area was when urban district council did it with a little chap pushing a barrow and cutting the grass and it all looked absolutely beautiful. i know it's difficult now because population has increased, grass verges have increased. erm, they go round with these machines, the grass flies everywhere, they never do the edges. several contractors have had it and it's never been right and eventually a few days or weeks later a man comes round to pick up the grass which has already flown everywhere so it's too late and a wa total waste of money. erm, there obviously isn't enough supervision by the contractors of the people they employ. it's certainly absolutely dreadful and erm people complain when they come down and say, whatever's happened to , it used to be such an attractive place, but obviously when the grass is knee high it doesn't look very nice for anyone to see. i think we've really got to do something about it and hold a proper supervisory and see what's going to go on this year because it's, it gets worse. i personally would like to see the parishes of the towns doing it themselves, i don't suppose that is possible now, but at least let's have somebody reliable and supervised. thank you mrs . i've got mr followed by mr . yes, thank you madam chairman. very briefly, i would've preferred to have seen a contract based on the end performance with the grass being cut to a structured length. we always seem to get the wrong sort of weather in three different sorts of machines. the playing fields are cut very well, no doubt about that. it's the verges that're either not cut at all or they're cut with one of two machines, the primo is little bits and the machines that so aptly described. they don't come round at the same time so you're always out of phase and it always looks untidy. the only grass that's well cut is where people cut it themselves outside their own house but, in particular, erm,th i would like to see the supervision of the contract and that we don't cough up the money unless the job's done properly because i think we're paying for a job that's not being either done at all , or when it is being done it's not being done well. it's the quality of service we're getting is ab abominable in that area. thank you mr . this is of course why we, we are proposing the trial in which would er give us an end performance grass cutting contract but we don't want to do that right across the county because of the projected cost, until we know whether it would work. erm, i've got mr followed by mr . thank you chairman. to some extent, to a larger extent, i agree with what says. the grass cutting we get is appalling. erm, unfortunately erm, when you let a contract out, you've got certain criteria and a contractor will only do what's specified on their contract. unfortunately, whether the contract drawn up in the first place has been a correct one or not, i'm not sure. i do know that council do pay for two extra cuts over and above what the cou county council have paid for. but the question of machinery is a very important issue. the person between the parks department and the erm this contract in , they are two separate departments and there's no doubt about it, the parks department do a very good job. why the people who cut the actual grass that people walk on erm i don't know, why they don't do that job properly. we have asked questions about clearing the grass up afterwards and we're told that would probably be two or three times the amount in the contract and in the actual, at the end of the day you get what you're paid for, you get what you pay for, and if you don't provide the resources or you can't provide the resources, i should say, then obviously you've gotta make do with second best. whether we could look at our contract and see if this could be because mentioned about grass on the pavements, not only is it the machine that's doing that, but there's a danger to young children from the machines they're using and elderly people with pavements being very very slippery once they're doing the grass if it's raining. apart from that treading in people's houses. thank you mr , mr . well thank you madam chairman. there's been a lot of hot air generated over many years about grass cutting standards but it's not an idle thought when i say if anybody wants to see where the best grass cutting takes place then they should visit . erm, i've gotta say that i think the year was nineteen hundred and seventy six when it was the county council's responsibility for cutting the verges, not the district. county arbitrarily said, we're not doing it any more, that's to save money and the thing fell upon the district councils. now, even in it took us some, some time to get the situation under control but we did eventually get it under control but, as i say, not without a lot of misgivings and very very strong complaints from the public at large. now, but in many areas of the county work was put out to contractors. finally the th county picked up its responsibility again but the damage had been done and er grass cutting never seems to have recovered in some areas on the that i'll just try to describe in a few words. erm, i welcomed chairman the present experiment before us, i hope it succeeds, i hope it sets a continuing example to other parts of the county but you only get what you pay for and in, in we top it up from the seven cuts to i think thirteen or fourteen. but there always remains still one point of complaint by some members of the public, that is that the grass that's cut does tend to blow about, but if the cutting is frequent, there's less grass t to blow about at a given time. but if you want the grass swept up as well then i tell you here and now, you're getting into cost that's greater than that of cutting the grass. thank you mr . i've got mr and mr and then i'm drawing a line. mr . well, department of transport erm say that five cuts per year is enough and, and er we, we do seven cuts which is a little bit better than that. i wouldn't disagree with mr in what he said about the more cuts we have the better it looks and so it stands to reason it's a question of cost. but i think that he would probably agree, and i know he's made comments at various times on this subject, about er the grass that is left behind and it is always a problem i think throughout the county erm where grass is cut and then spread around. i think a lot of people who suffer from asthma type diseases here do suffer quite severely erm because of this and i think that at some point we're probably going to have to, to look at it and try and devise a system which, which allows us to pick up the grass. erm, i think probably i would support the recommendation as it stands because i do think that we need to have a trial to see if the end performance, and i very very much support the idea of the end performance, er in district. i think we should carry that out and see, see what the results are before we go county- wide. thank you mr . mr . thank you madam chairman. very quickly i, i think the sentiments expressed i, i agree with. erm,a bit on the recommendations one they're seeking approval er that erm the er tenders from are left from march nineteen ninety four to march nineteen ninety eight which seems to me to be quite a long time to let that go if we're all a little bit concerned about what's going on. erm, i think the scheme is, is quite right but are we not in, in too much changes to the specification. that's what it's all about, i'd like perhaps to see whether we can tie that up a bit. thank you mr . i will ask the county surveyor to answer all those points in order. yeah. perhaps the last point first just to get that one out the way. er, yes, it's a requirement for the actual length of the contract on us in the first place but the second point is that, in the tender documents, we've actually asked all the contractors to price all the different permutations, whether it's seven cuts, eleven cuts, hundred millimetres or a hundred and fifty millimetres. so, having appointed a contractor, it would be possible to alter the specification with the prices already tendered for, alright? so we, we have a certain amount of flexibility in there. just to make some general points. yes, i mean it's quite clear grass cutting is one of those issues which has been very vexatious over the years and i'm sure it will continue to be so. it will, because er in part, under compulsory competitive tendering, the pricing is driven down to rock bottom and below. we pay something like one penny per square metre to cut grass and, as someone has already said, to an extent you get what you pay for. the cost of a if w if the specification included collecting the grass, you multiply the cost by a factor of seven. now, performance specifications are all very well, and we're gonna try one here and see how it works out. you don't necessarily get a better job with a performance spec than you would simply by specifying that you had more cuts because in er in a slow growing year, if you like, the contractor actually gains because he doesn't need to cut so many times to comply with a maximum of a hundred millimetres length, whereas if you've got an eleven level cut you would actually have a continuous length of grass, much shorter, so it would look smarter. so performance specification isn't necessarily better, it depends on the weather again. we all know what can happen with the weather. erm, the other thing i'd like to draw your attention to is para six point one, just a little tabulation there, because what they're saying is that on the number of cuts per specification, that's what exists now, er three hundred and twenty eight thousand, that's about the same as this year, er if you go to the hundred millimetre cut, which is what we're suggesting we do on a trial basis, the cost to the county council will amount to another hundred and fifty thousand pounds a year. so, it's not chickenfeed when you start to er, or maybe it would be chickenfeed so, so it's a lot of, sorry about that,er it's, it's a substantial sum of money and obviously we want to look at how the one works. incidentally, it will cost us about an extra eight thousand pounds just to do the trial in . comment on the position there, only in so far as the extent of the existing contract which is not due to expire until first of january nineteen ninety five, and we're not proposing to ask to terminate that. it is their own direct labour organization that run it. but there will be cost involved, i think about eighteen thousand, over the course of that year, in sustaining that contract rather than replacing it with a new tender. can on that madam chairman? are you saying you're quite prepared to let them, how they cut it, you'll let it go on for another two years without you doing anything about it? not another two years, i think that was the first of january ninety five, it's actually one year, and it's not a question of doing nothing about it. we are er overseeing them, as we do with other contractors, but it is, it is the district and it's their own contractor and we hope that they will improve their performance. we can terminate it if, if, we can terminate it at the point the other contractor if it, if things really are bad this year. right. has the additional cost has gone up from six thousand to eight thousand more, or is it still six thousand? you mentioned eight thousand that was for quoted six thousand sorry, beg your pardon, slip of the tongue, it's six thousand. thank you very much. er, can i, can i have your agreement for the recommendation then? agreed. thank you. yes of course. erm right now item eighteen, the report of delegated action. erm, can i ask you to note those points? agreed? oh, hang on. a point. mis mr madam chairman if i may just make a comment of concern that information was not, on this point was not forthcoming to the county councillors of that area perhaps to make er give them an opportunity to make comment prior to to you so you could make this delegated action. as you know doubt are aware of the importance that it is to us in that area of the and the current enquiry that's going on at the moment. right, erm, did we not have a fair amount of discussion about this at the time, before not that i can remember at all. got a copy of it? i haven't got it with me. no, that's the actual paper but i no, it comes to us to pass on to you and we passed it to you no, that's not the right one no, i mean, who? should she? note the point yeah, okay, we note your concern and we'll, we'll try to make sure it doesn't happen again. can i make the same point as well please? you want to make the same point? yes. yeah, alright, okay, thank you. right, okay, fair enough, i, i accept that point and i will ensure that we yes, sorry, just to interrupt for a moment chairman. of course, the actual initiative to this does come from the district so the primary source of information at consultation should actually be through them before we get asked to approve it. as a county councillor, rather than a borough councillor on the way perhaps it does thank you can we make a proviso that the delegated action on that a item is in consultation with the local members concerned and i think that will take care of the point. right, well, it's already happened so we, we can't i, i think we can we can look at what we can do about it in the future and whether it is practical to erm consult local members where possible. i think that's, that's all we can do at the moment and i take your point mr , thank you. anything else there? right well thank you very much for your brevity and we will be able to send out team of experts out to deal with floods after lunch. sorry, there is no part two because the report will be, has been delegated. thank you very much. this sunday. i'd like us to, look back to that parable, or part of that parable that jesus er, told the folk, it's in luke chapter fifteen. may well have guessed that already from er, our service this morning. and, let me just read you the, it's quite a short parable this one. let me just read you the the o the er, the appropriate verses from luke fifteen, and the opening seven verses. this is after perhaps with the possible exception of john fourteen, this is perhaps the, the best known, and best loved chapter in the gospel narratives. most folk, no matter what they don't know, have some familiarity, but it's not always correct of these parables in luke fifteen, the lost coin, the lost sheep, and the lost son. so let's just read those opening verses, it says,now all the tax gatherers and the sinners were coming near jesus to listen to listen to him. and both the pharisees and the scribes began to grumble saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them, and he told them this parable saying, what man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the open pasture and go out to the one which is lost until he finds it. and when he has found it he lays it on his shoulders rejoicing. and when he comes home he calls to gather his friends and his neighbours saying to them, rejoice with me for i have found my sheep which was lost! i tell you the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety nine righteous persons who need no repentance. you certainly don't have to be a bible scholar to read this chapter and realize that perhaps the key word in it is the word lost. and there are those who will tell us that really it's not one parable, it's three parables and there's some who think it's, no it's, really it's, it's it's just the one parable with these three little sa , parts of it. one could really argue that in fact there are four parables there really. because you've got the the er the story, the account of the er, the lost sheep, you've got the lost coin, you've also got the er parable or the story of the lost, the prodigal son, but you also have the second part of that which is almost a separate story of, the son who had not gone into the far country. but in a sense it doesn't really matter whether it's one parable, whether it's three parables, or whether it's four parables, it's what jesus was trying to teach to these people, and over these next three weeks, we're gonna be looking at these three, er illustrations that jesus uses. again, we see, that one of the very important truths that comes out of this is that people matter to god. now in a day, in er, in an age when people are, don't really matter, you know, we we we reel off statistics and they really are meaningless aren't they? you you hear of tragedies, perhaps in,i in in the far east where hundreds, thousands of people are killed in flooding and in the like, and it's just numbers to us. and every single incident, every single one of those people, there i , there is a hu , there is a human being there a and for every one of them there are perhaps hundreds of other people who are affected by that loss but it's just a number to us. it doesn't really mean a lot. we become immune to it. and it's good for us to recognise and to be aware and to realize, that in a day when we are so often just numbers, that as individuals we matter to god. and one of the, the things that jesus is bringing up particularly in this first se parable here, the parable of the lost sheep, is that he is concerned for that individual, for that one person. you matter to god! not as a member of the human race, but you matter to god as an individual, as a person with all your strengths, your weaknesses, with all our peculiarities and our points, as individuals, we matter to god! another thing, perhaps, we should notice right at the very beginning is that jesus didn't actually speak in pa , in in er, in chapters, and they've lost, they've been put in for our convenience, and chapter fifteen is not the beginning of a new incident jesus had already been speaking to the people, he had been teaching them in chapter fourteen. er he he he had been, in verse twenty five, now great multitudes were going along with him, and he turned to them and said to them, and you got there what he tell, what he says, he's talking about discipleship, and of the importance of following him, and the cost that will be involved in following him, and the responsibility of those who follow him, that they are to be salt within their generation, within their environment. and then he concludes what we have as verse thirty five,he who has ears to hear let him hear . and jesus hadn't stopped speaking, but even as he's saying that the these people are gathering around him, the tax gatherers, the sinners, the undesirables of society, they're gathering around him to hear what he's got to say. and as we're gathering around and as jesus is teaching the people, there are also coming around er bu , being careful not to get too close to the tax gatherers and the sinners! there are the scribes and the pharisees, and they began grumble saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them, and jesus told them a parable. he is speaking to the scribes, to the pharisees. he is speaking in response to their grumbling. they're, they're, they're peeved that jesus is mixing with sinners. they're peeved that jesus is in the company of sinners. and you know there are a lot of christians today who are just like that. they will mix with sinners on their terms, it's alright to speak to them providing you come to my church i'll speak with you. but what about up there where they really are? that's where jesus went. you know, jesus didn't spend his days, he went to the synagogue, it was his custom, but he didn't spend his days and nights in the synagogue, he went to the parties. and if jesus was around today he would be going to the places that you and i would think twice about going to, not because he wanted to have a good time, but because he wanted to relate to the people who were there. he has i haven't come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. and one of the accusations that was hurled against jesus again and again is that this man eats and drinks with sinners! he goes to their parties! he's to be seen in their company! and these religious leaders didn't like it. and there are a lot of religious folk today who don't like it who get peeved, and who think it shouldn't be. it's alright dealing with sinners but you must deal with them on your terms, and in, on your home ground. well jesus didn't act like that he went to where the sinners were and he mixed with them. and these people who are moaning and groaning at jesus, jesus turns to them and he speaks this parable. in understanding the parables and the teachings of jesus, one of the things we've got to do is to say well what do the various things in the parables, what do they represent? after all, jesus wasn't just telling them a nice story. now there are times when jesus actually sat down with his disciples afterwards and explained to them what the parable was about and there was a reason for that, it was because, simply, the folk would not have understood it. jesus was speaking to them in a, in a concealed language, it was only for his disciples, and whilst all the people heard it, they didn't understand it, the disciples didn't understand it, and jesus afterwards explained to his followers what he was saying. but there are some parables that jesus ac explained for the simple reason he didn't have to explain them. the folk would have understood. they would have caught the pictures he was using. they would have seen how it applied. that's why sometimes they got mad at him because they knew he was talking to them and about them and they knew that it applied to them. and this is one of those incidents. jesus then, he's talked to the scribes and the pharisees. well what do the different components? what are the different things in this parable mean? what do they represent? one of the other things, of course, we've got to always bear in mind when we und , try to understand the parables of jesus is that you cannot, and jesus never meant for us, to find us u our, you know a parallel for every single little detail, the for for the colour of this, or the colour of that, or th the shape of something else, he didn't expect us and didn't mean for us to find out a pa a a parallel, a meaning for every single detail because otherwise you're gonna be contradicting yourself again and again but what we must see is, what is the main basic truth that jesus is teaching here? and in the vast majority, if not in all the parables, certainly in ninety nine percent of them, jesus is not teaching a multitude of different things, he's teaching one basic truth, and everything else is just to su substantiate and to provide illustration for that. well, i suppose the very first thing we've gotta ask is just, who or what are these ninety nine sheep? now, the common understanding of this is that, they're christians, these are those who are followers of jesus, they're the christians, and jesus comes and er, ee er, there's the little, there's the one who is wandering away, who's a stray and jesus goes after them and brings them back into the fold and so on. and you know the songs th that we sing around this, the song about, there were ninety and nine that safety lay in shelter of the fold and so on. but let's look carefully what jesus actually said here. though, you know, there's a sense in which we can use,we we're a, we gave it in you to have a certain amount of license, and we can use illustrations just as we would use modern illustrations to describe spiritual truths and to use them to illustrate the gospel. but what actually was jesus really saying here? notice what it says in verse four,what man among you if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness ? in the open pasture. he leaves them in the open pasture says jesus, he leaves them in the wilderness and goes after the one which is lost until he finds it. so jesus doesn't leave them in the fold. he doesn't bring them safely home and, you know, have them all securely ti er closed in for the night in safety and security, he leaves them in the wilderness. notice what we said earlier on in that last verse, the last phrase of the last verse in the previous chapter, he who has ears to hear let him hear. who is jesus speaking to? he is speaking to the scribes and pharisees. and boy! they, they got this. it hit them! it hit them right where it hurt! they knew what jesus was saying. you see, they weren't sinners, they were good righteous, religious people, there was nothing wrong with them. it was all the others who were sinners! it was the tax gatherers, it was the pe , it was the drunkards, it was the harlots, it was all the others who were sinners, not them. they after all, they went to the tiniest details. they used to even tithe of the herbs in their herb garden! so they wouldn't fail to keep the law in one bit. and jesus says, you keep the minuscule things. you you ti , you tithe of your parsley, and your thyme, and your sage,yo you tithe of these things, when you, when you go and pick ten figs, you give one fig to to th to to god, you tithe of that but you've left the weightier things undone. you haven't done the important things! you've been straining at gnats, jesus said, and yet, you've allowed the big issues to go by without bothering with them. they weren't sinners in their own eyes because they did all these little things. and because they did not consider themselves sinners therefore in their own understanding they were not lost. notice what jesus says in verse seven, he says,i tell you in the same way there'll be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety nine righteous persons who need no repentance . now what on earth does jesus mean here? righteous people who need no repentance. we all need to repent! the bible says there is none righteous! know not one! so what on earth is jesus meaning here, when he talks about righteous people not needing to repent? well simply, jesus is being rather ironical to them. he's using irony. he's being a bit sarcastic. what he's saying is, you scon , you don't think you need to repent. well, there is more joy in heaven over the person, the sinner who knows their lostness, and who repent, thereover, you ninety and nine who think you're good enough who don't need to repent. oh, they were lost alright! the problem was they didn't realize it. they were out of the wilderness. they were not safe, they were not secure, but the tragedy was, they are in their little group in their self-contained unit with all the other ninety eight milling around, they didn't realize they were lost! they didn't realize they were in danger. they didn't realize they were still in the wilderness. and that one that had wandered off from the rest it became aware that it was lost. what does that word lost mean? now, we can use the word lost in a nu , a number of ways. but, very simply, what it really means, let me give you an illustration. you're walking along the road and you have a pound coin in your hand and you drop it it rolls along the gutter erm harlow drains are not quite like the drains we used have in london , but it rolls along the gutter and it drops down through the grating of a drain. now you know anything about drains, i've never been down them, but if you kno , if you know anything about them, it goes down about three, four foot, five foot sometimes, and then, there is a, the pipe,the there's, there's a ledge there, and then going on down into the, in into the main drains. now, you can see that coin down there, if you look carefully, you can see it you can't get it, you know where it is, it hasn't gone through a hole into the centre of the earth it hasn't, sort of, disappeared into outer space, you know exactly where it is, the chances are you could pin point it within a few inches of where i , even if you can't see it you know where it is, but you can't get at it to you, it's lost you know it's geographic location, you know when it went there, you know everything about it, you only thing is you can't get at it! now what does that mean? it means that you cannot use it for what it was intended. cos after all a coin was a, had a monetary value that meant you could go and buy something with it. i it was it was a co , it was, it was currency as far as you were concerned, you could use it, it had purchasing power. now in a sense, it hasn't changed it's form one little bit, it is still a pound it is still currency, it still has purchasing power, the only problem is, it's just out of your reach , and you can't get at it. so to you it is lost. but in itself it hasn't changed one little bit. it is, so what it means when it's lost is, it is not able to fulfil the function for which it was made. you see, pound coins were not made to rest in drains, they were meant to circulate, they were meant to be used, they were meant as a means of currency and that's what the bible means when it talks about being lost. it's not lost geographically being lost, you know where you are, you know when you're, you know, you know your situation in time, in space,i in in geographic location, you know what you're doing and all the rest of it, when the bible uses the word lost it means lost for the purpose for which god intended it. for which god intended you. for which god intended me. that is to be hi , for it to be his, to be to his praise, to be for his glory. when we are lost we are not fulfilling that function. and one of the problems that these folk had, and one of the problems we all have is as long as we think we're all right, then we're all wrong. smugness is dangerous. it's dangerous for the non-christian. you see, this really, this this parable i is the story of of, of something which is lost almost by default, it just wanders off, it just goes it's own way it didn't set out to be lost, it didn't choose you know that i , it didn't go through earlier on in that day, in the little brain that the sheep has, there wasn't the thought going, i am going to deliberately get lost today! i'm gonna go my own way, i'm a perverse creature, and i am gonna go astray! i'm gonna give the shepherd a rough time of it! he didn't think that way at all! it just as is the want of sheep, it just wandered away from one clump of grass to another, losing all sense of time and direction until it, was lost! and so, and that can be the ca , the same with us. you know, there are different ways that we are lost. sometimes it just without even realizing it, just that wandering away. but all, when we are lost the danger that smugness of not realizing we're lost, we're alright! i know i'm, i know where i am! i know what i'm doing! i know all about it! i'm okay thanks very much! and all the time we're not alright! we're lost! but you know that is a danger not just for those who are lost as far as god's salvation is concerned, there is a danger there for you and i as christians, of being smug, of being self-satisfied, i'm alright! doesn't the apostle say, he that taketh his stand, take heed lest yee fall! cos we only stand in him. and we're only secure in him. we're only strong in him. paul says, i know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing! a danger of smugness. now the ninety nine, they did not realize they were lost and yet they were. and the one lost creature, he became the saved one because it was made aware that is was lost. there came a moment in it's experience when it realized it was where it shouldn't be! when it realized it didn't have anythi , it's mates around him. when he was isolated and insecure, and it was, didn't know how to get out of it, he was in a jam. now what's jesus saying? he's saying that every one of us we are the sheep. he uses that picture again and again in the bible of us being like sheep. the moment we admit our need, the moment we come the realization, i'm lost, i can't help myself, that's the moment that we can be helped. you remember peter when he was, er, totally different context, but the lesson is the same, when he was when jesus called him to walk on the water and he starts walking, and then, he looks around and for what e , for whatever reason he starts sinking, the moment he calls out help jesus reaches out and lifts him back him rescues him. the moment we realize our need and cry out, that is the moment that god is able to respond. that is the moment that the shepherd comes to our rescue and delivers us. then, you know, it might be a nice little picture but it's no compliment to be likened to sheep! you know, we, it might be alright to be a nice, to be likened to nice little furry lambs and all the rest of it, but to be likened to a sheep is not a compliment, it's a bit of an insult, because there's no more helpless, stupid creature harpi , god ever created than sheep! they are about the most helpless creatures available! you know, a dog, when it's confronted with danger it can, it can fight it's way out a cat will do the same, every other creature will, will do something when it's confronted with danger a se , a sheep is so intelligent and is so strong and is, has such a er, a self- preservation er er er awareness that it just stands and bleats and does nothing because it can do nothing! it has got not power or strength of itself. there are,the there can be few more helpless creatures than sheep. so it's not exactly a compliment to be likened to a sheep ! it's, to be likened to something that's helpless that can do nothing! well of course, it's not er, by chance the bible and god uses that picture because we're, we are just like sheep in that sense, we can't do anything for ourselves. listen what paul says when he writes to the romans in chapter five he says,for why we were still helpless, at the right time christ died for the ungodly . and two verses later on in verse eight,but god demonstrates his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners christ died for us. we cannot save ourselves! we cannot rescue ourselves! but in our helplessness, in our sheep-like condition the shepherd comes and he rescues us. and he saves us, because we can't do it ourself! you know, if it was a dog that was lost, if it was a cat that was lost, if it was even a pigeon that had got lost they've got some homing device, but the sheep hasn't even got that, it can't even find it's own way home. and that's just like human beings. lost! without any hope in the world, the bible says. unable to do anything for ourselves, and then god comes and rescues us in our hop , hopelessness, and helplessness. back in isaiah, chapter fifty three th the old testament prophet he paints that picture very graphically doesn't he? he says, all of us, like sheep, have gone astray. each of us has turned to his own way. rescuing that sheep was not an easy task. and just as the shepherd had to go out and look for it, and search for it. it di we don't get all the details in the story that jesus tells of here, but it's quite certain that it wasn't just a case of wandering along a nice path until he found the sheep and then bringing it home. as we've already heard, undoubtedly, it was a difficult job, it was undoubtedly as a hard, a dangerous task in rescuing that sheep. and of course, we know that in the spiritual sense the task of jesus in rescuing you and i, in rescuing men and women, it was not an easy thing. er, that same prophet isaiah, in the same chapter, he says surely, our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried, yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of god and afflicted but he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for inequities, the chastening for our wellbeing fell upon him. the law, and by scourging we are healed, and the lord has caused the inequity of us all to fall on him . in saving, in rescuing lost humanity, lost you and lost me, it was the hardest, most difficult, most painful job that god could ever do! it was not an easy thing. forgiving sin since christ has died, forgiving sin is easy but it was, yet, it was the hardest thing that god could do because he could only do it when christ died for us. so the rescue operation was not di , an easy one. it was a difficult one. it is the most difficult work go god had had undertaken! creating this world and all the, the millions of worlds and spa , and galaxies and, and all the rest of creation, that was child's play compared to forgiving you and me. that called that god had exercise it's everything in bringing it about. we've already heard mentioned this morning, some verses have been quoted from another old testament prophet,izekial who used similar graphic language in izekial chapter thirty four in verse six, let me read those verses again, he says my flock wandered through all the mountains and on every high hill, and my flock was scattered over all the surface of the earth, there was no one to search or seek for them . oh,th the lost condition! but there is,th th there is the promise in, down in verse eleven,for thus says the lord god behold i myself will search for my sheep and seek them out . god did not give the job, he could not, and he did not try to give the job to anybody else! he himself came, the son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. i myself will search for my seech , for my sheep, and will seek them out. in verse erm thirteen,i will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them into their own land. i will feed them on the mountains of israel, by the streams and in all the inhabited places of the land. i will feed them in good pasture and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of israel, there they will lie down in good grazing ground, and they will feed in rich pastures on the mountains of israel. i will feed my flock and i will lead them to rest, declares the lord god . and david in, that psalm which we read earlier, in psalm twenty three, he paints the picture of how the good shepherd, not only seeks out the lost sheep but once he has brought him back, once he has rescued the, a lost sheep, he care for it. he doesn't leave that sheep that he's rescued in the wilderness, but he brings that one safely home as jesus says, on his shoulder rejoicing, and he leads it by, as david says, the still waters, and by those green and verdant and lush pastures. isaiah back in fifty three again tells us what the result will be, in verse twelve. no, it's not in verse twelve. it's in verse eleven,as a result of the anguish of his soul he will see it and be satisfied, he'll be satisfied with the rescue operation, he'll be satisfied with what he has accomplished, isaiah says , and jesus uses, perhaps, even more extravagant language, there in luke fifteen, when he says in verse six, in verse mm mm, in verse seven, when he comes home with that sheep that he's rescued with that lost to to but it now has been found, when he brings it home he says there wi , he says he calls together his friends and his neighbours, saying to them rejoice with me! for i have found my sheep which was lost. i tell you in the same way, there will be joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. the rescue operation brings about joy. not only joy to the sheep that's been rescued, but it brings joy in heaven. christ himself is satisfied, as isaiah, says. he comes home rejoicing. and jesus speaking to these scribes and the pharisees he's pointing the finger says, you, can i paraphrase and, perhaps use well no, jesus used some pretty strong language against these people. he called them white inseficus full of dead mens' bones, but looking nice on the outside. graves. and he saying, you miserable bunch of people! you are so wrapped up in yourself. you are so conceited and smug! you don't realize that you are lost! and i can do nothing for you because i've come to rescue and seek that which is lost, and which is aware of it. i'm, come to seek and to save the lost. and you don't realize that you are lost, and not only that, but you are griping when those who realize their condition call out to me and i'm reaching to them and rescuing them, you are griping at that! that's what jesus is saying in this parable. let me just close with some words from matthew chapter nine in verse ten, he said that it happened that as jesus was reclining at the table in the house behold many tax gatherers and sinners came and were dining with jesus and his disciples, and when the pharisees saw this they said to his disciples, why is your teacher eating with the tax gatherers and sinners? but when jesus heard this he said is it not those who are healthy who need a physi , it is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick . that's it. it's those who are sick. but go and learn what this means. i desire compassion and not sacrifice, for i did not come to call the righteous but sinners. jesus is not suggesting there are some who are righteous and some who are sinners, because we're all sinners, all have sinned but he's suggesting that those who don't realize and acknowledge they're sinners, he says, i haven't come to call you. i've nothing for you. but those who recognize their need, they're the ones that i have come to call. they're the ones that i have come to rescue. they're the ones that i have come to find, and to bring home rejoicing and full of gladness! causes, even heaven to rejoice when they see those who are lost acknowledging their lostness, and responding and being found. well, we're gonna sing now. we're gonna sing from the redemption hymnal and it's number three hundred and seventy six. three hundred and seventy six in the redemption hymnal and whilst we're singing this we're gonna be taking up our morning offering. i'm not ashamed to own my lord or to defend his cause maintain the honour of his word, the glory of his cross! at the cross, at the cross where i first saw the light, and the burden of my heart rolled away, it was there by faith i receive my sight and now i am happy all the day! three hundred and seventy six. let's stand to sing this shall we? i'll be available. gentlemen, i'll take apologies for absence. i have alan yeah. and ken . are there any others? john . john . can i just say about alan , apparently alan has been in hospital. oh! had a slight operation and er i didn't know about it until today so erm er paul 's going to offer him our good wishes and we're going to be, i'm told he's home again and it's, it's only quite a minor operation and he's quite well and that er hopefully will be back again next week. er, we have in fact two non rotarian visitors as far as i'm aware there are no rotarian visitors, am i correct in that? can i then introduce to you i'll introduce the speaker in a few moments, quite formally, but michael who's the guest of roy . and john , who's the guest of bernie . are there any visits away? silence is golden! there are no erm, birthdays this week so it's now there is. my pleasure to ah! are there any announcements by committee chairman? any urgent announcements? john? thank you president. just to remind members of the club service committee that there is a meeting tonight at the green man hotel at six fifteen. the same about community service wednesday, er seven fifteen at my place. thank you michael. any other announcements gents? right! well it's now my pleasure to introduce no. our speaker donald who's from the engineering council and is here to speak on engineering. he was apprenticed as a toolmaker at vickers armstrong and has been thirty five years as the college lecturer at colchester institute. including a, an exchange the united states of america and prior to his retirement was dean of studies. donald. good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen! it's nice to be able to say that isn't it really? anyway, what i really want to talk about is engineering for our future in a way because i mean most of you er, listen to the doom and gloom and all the ni , all the er kind of statistics we've seen that come out of the engineering prize federation, the c b i, i wish somebody, for a change, would put a little bit of gloss on it instead of actually bringing up the statistics which show how badly we're doing! but anyway, talking about engineering as a whole, quite obviously it's interesting to go back a bit because i'm always interested in the way the institutions actually started because er there's a lovely story about er, the stephenson brothers and tho ,ju , having just come down from scarborough on a mini-holiday we stopped at york and i went over a great big museum there, and quite obviously seeing the marvellous locomotives you realise that george stevenson had er, a lot to do with that. the interesting thing of course was his ro , his brother robert was a civil engineer and the story goes, of course, they disagreed so much that in the end george said okay robert you can have the civil engineers, i'll start with mechanical engineers! so, during the er, eighteen hundreds of course, you've got these two major institutions started up and then of course we got the er faraday when electrical started up, and they got the faraday. so you really got the big three institutions, but unfortunately, like everything else, they grew and grew and grew and grew, and there's forty five engineering institutions! i bought along this brochure, you can have a copy if you like but i mean at the back there are forty five institutions all virtually paddling their own canoe. so, quite obviously, everybody got a bit concerned because erm anybody involved in engineering at all and you go to careers conventions, has everybody got a stand up? it's always a case of who gets there first gets the best position and things like that! but er the government, a long while ago, actually decided they ought to do something about knocking the institutions' heads together and they drew up a plan called the council of engineering institutes, where the idea was we get a little of coordination across the entire patch. otherwise everybody, as i say, were pushing away and discipline itself. well the council of engineering institutes didn't work very well! and, then that famous man who died just recently,finniston was asked to er, present a report to the government about ten years ago, in which he was going to knock the heads together again and try to get some kind of er organisation which would actually get the institutions to cooperate and coordinate their activities and that was the beginning of the engineering council. unfortunately, the engineering council ran into trouble with the fact that they did want to put some penal clauses in whereby engineers were responsible for a lot of their actions. you probably realise there are loads of problems, from a legal point of view, you've only gotta think of the piper alpha, and most of the major disasters which do occur. it's very difficult indeed to pin people down, quite rightly so, i mean, you don't immediately want to see a scapegoat or something like that. but, if we had bought in some sort of penal clause, then i mean firms might be inclined to look very critically at the qualifications their engineers have got. we know some of the major organisations in the country actually do look for chartered engineers with the disciplines of civil, mechanical, electrical er, gas engineers, chemical engineers, energy engineers, as the case may be. so, the idea was that finniston bought out this report which would then form another strata over the institutions and form the engineering council, of which i happen to be a member. but unfortunately, again, we're goi , going back history-wise, the civils and the mechanicals and electricals, and you've only gotta go to london and see what palatial places they got just virtually adjacent to the houses of parliament you'll find mechanical engineers, and also the civil engineers in bird cage walk. and you've only gotta go if you go in the savoy hotel and just turn slightly left and you'll find electrical headquarters there as well, and quite obviously they are very powerful organisations! electrical's a hundred and thirty thousand strong, mechanical somewhere about eighty thousand strong, civil's about sixty thousand strong. so when you realise it's somewhere about three hundred and fifty thousand chartered engineers in th u k as a whole you'll see most of them belong to the three major organisations. great progress was made! we did have committees and we began to coordinate activities and er careers conventions suddenly sprouted engineering council's banners and the people all got together again under these banners and we went to these careers conventions and tried to obviously put across the image of engineering itself. but, as i say, this is about ten years ago but we're now run into another problem whereby the erm institutions are beginning go back again and want to project their own images, right the way through. so, as i say, that's what i call the erm negative side of the engineering council whereby, we've still got problems with trying to er coordinate the institutions. i suppose in a way it's a bit like the tail wagging the dog to a certain extent, whereby the er larger institutions rather want to get their two pence worth, er rather than let the engineering council take over. but when we look at the positive side, and that's where we've got a plan a cunning plan if you watch black adder at all! a cunning plan, to do something about organising the careers' conventions. and this is where we've decided that what we really need is young engineers, in other words er, people who have just entered the profession itself to talk to the school children. in other words, i mean i'm retired and i mean the point is that my erm experience goes back into the er into the dark ages i can almost say because in these days, you probably realise, i mean if anybody buys a video you don't ask you don't look for the book of instructions you ask about a five year old kiddy how to programme it! cos i don't think there's many people in this room could probably programme a video itself. so technology has advanced considerably, and what we've done is to capitalise on the younger engineers and we've introduced another phase called neighbourhood engineers and this is where we rely on the er goodwill of the firms to actually sa let their seconder engineers sometimes, but certainly let them out into the er into the schools careers convention work places to talk to the actual youngster itself. it works like this, you get the schools involved and realise, i don't know how many have read the national curriculum, bit like the maestricht treaty i suppose to a certain extent! but the national curriculum quite honestly, is quite wide and also expands over primary, secondary, and also higher education as well. and what we've tried to do is to look at the national curriculum and try to identify young engineers who could go in and help with design and technology and quite obviously, practice what they preach. so we er, schools can approach us as the engineering council and say, we'd like some help, and quite obviously, they all want some help when they look at the actual syllabus of a design and technology itself! and er, we get a panel of young engineers and a panel of school teachers and they actually erm go to a school, they sit down, look at the national curriculum and decide which parts they can actually participate in and it's been so successful at the moment, realise the trouble is we're somewhere about five thousand, six hundred secondary schools in the u k you realise it's a mammoth task! you want somewhere in the region of about four engineers to each school so work it out yourself, it's quite a job to actually get the ratio right. but, in this area of east anglia, which of course, includes this part of essex itself we have got quite a tidy ratio at the moment of these panels of school teachers and panels of young engineers to actually look at a national curriculum and work out some kind of erm time cycle when a young engineer could come in and actually cross the t's and dot the i's on parts which obviously the teachers don't know about. let me give you one or two specific examples, i'm always interested, having been in a college for thirty five years in adult education, i'm interested in the primary schools and i must admit i get more job satisfaction the moment we go in a primary schools than ever i had when i was in the college itself! and i was in a ca , er school over the summer holidays and er, we were looking at the design and technology and the point was that they gotta design and make some components, and realise i'm talking about, you know, six, seven, eight year old, mixed girls and boys theirselves, and it was ra rather heart-warming to see where the way these youngsters react. i must admit, some of you probably were brought up on meccano, and certainly not in the mo mo more sophisticated technology we've got at the moment, but the point is, a lot of these haven't really seen this part of what i call the basic technology itself and er, it was interesting because we were trying to build up some kind of game for their summer fair and the game was quite obviously er, you know er propel a ping-pong into a er series of slots with er, bit like bingo to a certain extent, where you can actually er give prizes for the various holes you could actually penetrate and things like that. and it was interesting because er, we were talking about propulsion, talking about all types of er mechanics and sciences, and the way they'd write up a report at the end which is part of the english part of it, and one of the youngsters said to me, he said, can i go home mr ? i said, i don't think you can. he said, well i only live next door you know in a, in a village school quite obviously they all lived nearby and he was only gone about two or three minutes and he came back and once again, the young lady will know, but erm men might not know, i know, skirt hangers, you know skirt hangers, they're on springs aren't they? a , the glazed expression round here is fantastic! anyway, skirt hangers are on springs and it was rather interesting because he came back with a skirt hanger and also a er kitchen roll tube itself, he said i've got an idea mr ! and he drew it out actually, remember he's only six, seven years old and what he'd done was to put this spring loaded hanger into the back of the tube and he'd made a kind of trigger with a little, little plastic peg, and he said here's your gun! and as pulled the peg the spring went out and the ball went like that! now, that's really great to me because i mean, you're really stimulating the youngsters at that age, and quite obviously i could tell you loads of stories the way this neighbourhood engineers er er, scheme works at the moment but as i say we are embarrassed at the moment because, quite obviously, loads of school want us to participate but we got a very shortage of engineers. you see, going back in my own experience and er did mention that i was apprentice with vickers armstrong realise vickers armstrong re pe , recruited three thousand apprentices! three thousand apprentices those days! and they knew full well that they didn't really need the three thousand apprentices but those large firms trained no no note my word, for the country's needs, not the company's needs! in other words, i c i,ingaselectric , a e i, all the big firms, all the er coal mines, all the british rail, well british rail in those days, and these large firms trained large numbers of apprentices and then after the five years they tipped you out, i'm sorry i'm going back a long while, into what they call an improver status and then you could either come back to the firm or you could go, stay where you were. as it happened, as i say, i was apprentice at vickers armstrong and i moved on, quite obviously, to another firm who were looking for people like this. and quite obviously, adjacent to harlow was one of the largest training schools ever, anybody trained at a ford training school was made! in other words, i mean that was a basic kind of training you could get as a mechanical engineer. now, i mean, i'm talking about vickers armstrongs' three thousand, let's get back to er my particular home base, colchester. colchester was an engineering base, there's no doubt about that, there was david paxmans, you must all about, the great big diesel firm, they did some lovely er diesel engines for the high speed trains which, of course, obviously been superseded by electrics, they used to employ three thousand people and when i started in college we didn't enrol their apprentices on the college site, we went to paxmans and we enroled one hundred apprentices every year on a five year course, that mean they had a five hundred apprentices in a pool, didn't they, just like that! you guess how many recruited this year can't you? they've gone from three thousand down to eight hundred and th they've actually recruited five! but as i say, and then er, the other one which i can tell you was, which is absolute disaster! colchester lathe company was started in colchester, they just sold their site to tescos! so once again, i'm on the gloom and doom to a certain extent, but it does worry me because you see somewhere down the line, ladies and gentlemen, we shall need this skill, we shall need this pool of skilled people, and at the moment they're just not there at all ! cos i say, when you've got a pool of skilled people who can move about, quite obviously, other firms are gonna be very interested and gonna take them up. so at the moment we are really in a bit of a problem about the number of er apprentices being trained, or shall we say trainees being trained across the u k, k at the time,a a at all! but, once again, let me be on the positive side because i mean there's no doubt about it there are firms which are doing extremely well in spite of recession at the moment, and they are training people as well , but they're not training in numbers we really need when we go across the patch as a whole. so, what the engineering council is trying to do is to stimulate interest. in a way, i'm interested at the engineering prize federation and c b i have also began to realise that we can't survive, and i'm sorry if you're retailers, can't survive on the service in this country, we gotta survive on a manufacturing industry in this country and the only way you can do that is by having, really a pool of trained people. but this kind of stimulus neighbourhood he engineers point of view is actually extremely interesting and give you a hell of a lot of job satisfaction because you are getting the youngsters really involved in what it's all about. and i mean we, quite obviously, we get them involved with er school trips, as a matter of fact, i've just organised a er thing i've got here at the moment organised a er trip must be a good one mustn't it! sizewell b i mean you all heard of sizewell, we're quite near our sizewell. at the moment they've a very good training plant for for sizewell b, they show you the old erm magnox station, but they also the pressure water reactor station, and course also we've got the very old one down at bradwell if you know about, down on the me west merseyside, we got the old power station down there. but, firms are beginning to open up and give us an opportunity actually to take youngsters in and see what it's all about. and really, sizewell b is really a reprovation because it gives you an idea what the technology's like and how we're on top of that new technology itself. so, at the moment the engineering council, with the institutions at the moment are doing their best to stimulate interest into er engineering across the schools. and at the same time, lady and gentlemen, to improve the image, cos you'll still get the problem, you know, i'm an engineer, what do you do? i repair cars something like that! when you realise of course that there's a hell of a lot of erm scope for well trained, well qualified engineers. and perhaps the biggest draw back we've got at the moment that to ge , become a chartered engi engineer you've gotta have a degree! and of course at the moment there's hardly anybody taking the a levels necessary to go into the engineering stream throughout the university itself. so, gentlemen, what i'm really doing is to show you a bit of the background and the fact that it's not all doom and gloom there is a hell of a light at the tunnel and in matter of fact, we got another lecture on the channel tunnel in a few days time ! in other words, there are marvellous projects going on which really stimulate the interest of everybody, and it's, the engineering council's still trying to push them along into the twenty first century itself. thank you very much indeed gentlemen! thank you donald. could i ask er, rotarian alan to give us a vote of thanks? oh, i beg your pardon! any questions? would anybody like to ask any questions? i'm sure somebody would. yes go , gordon! yeah. i i was interested in you saying about the doom and gloom which is yeah ! always spread a and i i was listening to or or during a programme and it said er, we're always told how firms are going down the shoot! no one ever says some have been created and all the time they say there are lots of firms which have been created but they they never give that publicity at all! no! at a matter of fact, it's rather interesting that because somebody actually had a go at peter about this, he's a b b c er and we er, we shouldn't enter into politics about this, but you know the background of peter . but anyway, the point is, he does actually bring doom and gloom! and you're yes. quite right, the statistics he was actually talking about, and somebody actually pulled him up on th , up on this and said, okay you're talking about the number of firms who went to the wall, but what about new firms being created? and, of course, the trouble is, and once again i'm back into a a bandwagon effort of mine, is the financial aspect, if you actually examine the japanese philosophy, then their loan system is totally different ours when it comes to regenerating the manufacturing industry. i mean, their loan periods are somewhere about twenty five years whereby you probably realise in this country if a young er person wants to start a firm and he's go to the bank they're not gonna give him much scope at all! but, it's no doubt about it, you're dead right! the number of people who are regenerating firms is quite interesting. and also, remember, the firms, which as i say, were dying on their feet in any case, and i me , i did quote the colchester lathe because i felt so personally about that cos it was colchester itself they have actually moved their division up to leicester itself. but i still say, it seems a shame that they are prepared to make money by selling it to a tescos of all people to er really make money so they can move somewhere else! which, no doubt there are people are regenerating theirselves, and once again, talking locally again, of course , realise marconi's are in a bad way but they have got some marvellous er er new stuff coming along, but the point is er, obviously in the defence industry, in the er radar works, quite obviously you're not getting that kind of demand. but on the other side, what we call space space communications, and marconi's have got a marvellous new product, it's well into the twenty first century! but they don't need the number of people they did before. but you're dead right! okay? john. president, i i happen to be going on saturday to the national final of the rotary young inventor of the years' er convention this ooh! yes! mm. weekend. i just wanted to ask our speaker if he's heard of it? oh yes, i have heard it, oh yes indeed, yeah! erm , because i was rather sad, i i tried to instore the rotary club in the district in taking part, or or encouraging their mm. local schools mm. to take part and sadly, there weren't very many! and i think from memory, there was no one in the colchester area so quite oh well! sad but er i must get in touch with er er well i can give you some names to start with! well you know who the ex-president of colchester rotary is the principle of the college isn't he? . you know, john ? yes, well i have met him, yeah. yes, i'll have a word with john about that! it's very er th er if you like, rotary is is trying to do a a bit yes, that's right! yes i did know about it. and i'll have a go at john! thank you! yes? alan? do you think there are enough places in the universities for engineers? enough places? yes. well, that's quite an interesting point because there are enough, the only trouble at the moment is not enough people taking the necessary a levels to go into these places. i mean, my own al , local university is essex, and they specialize in er, what we call, electronic systems theory, and also in basic engineerings themself. but i was talking to a prof up there the other day, the actual a level, do you know, it's pathetic really, i mean when you're talking about law degrees you want about threes a's at a and now even accepting c's a, a level c's for engineering itself! there are enough places, but we haven't got the qualified people unfortunately! perhaps some of those erm, five and six year olds i was talking about will get there eventually! any further questions? er further to what john said about the er, young inventor, we were fortunate enough last year to have er our competitor, or we had a, we held a competition locally mm. which i think there were four competitors, one of whom got through to the district final and eventually to the national final that john is going to on saturday. ooh that's good, yeah! erm we mm. wrote to all the same places again this year and the response we got back from the schools was that this particular year they've got nobody coming forward who they consider would no. be suitable but mm. do apply again next year because yeah, that's right! that's right! there are pupils who will probably yeah. make it next year. that's right! so there's hope for the future! ah! yes? michael? mr er speaker erm finance always to a certain extent and i wonder about finance in your organisation. no doubt, all the companies pay money into their chartered unit and you, they pay money to your council yeah. to run the organisation. yeah. you mentioned about training yes. and the lack of training do you not feel that the government should put more money into the company to allow apprenticeship to take place rather than of thinking the company's gotta foot the bill every time? oh he's got me a on a good band wagon now! because the trouble is, i can go back to nineteen sixty four, industrial relations act, which i thought was one of the best things ever bought out, whereby er the erm terms were levied to do so much training. the only trouble is, it's sporned so many, i think they got about twenty eight industrial groups! but, the major ones, i mean the engineer ones used to levy all firms two and half percent and therefore, there is an incentive to do a certain amount of training itself, and the finance obviously was self-generation itself. now, of course, we got problems now where they've all been abolished and is virtually on a voluntary basis, and i say, it'll be rather interesting to see whether lamont actually is going to release some more money, cos you probably realise at the moment they're cutting back on that particular budget. but i mean, one of the major problems is a fact, these youth training programmes or y, yp's as they call them, are alright but they're not really getting down to the basic er training we need! and as i say, you can't really beat what i call the basic training apprenticeships which you're to come through. there's no doubt about it, the government should do a lot more and i'm sorry to leave on this kind of basic note, the thing what really got was when they were talking about the coal miners and i mean, i know that particular area quite well, where they, they said we'll put some money in for training! training for what? cos i wa , i was directly involved when i did a hell of a lot of work for marconis, they sent me up to glenrossi's cos they got a micro er, electronics factory up there doing micro-chips, and one of the big coal mines up there had just been closed down and they said well, there's no doubt about it, you know wha what we gotta do is re-train the miners! but, unfortunately of course, with that type of work, their wives could do it, but the miners couldn't do it!. it's a different philosophy altogether! but i agree with you, more money should be made available, and we won't go into how much money they lost on trying to save the pound! gentlemen! i will now ask er rotarian alan to propose a vote of thanks. mr president er, mr speaker donald mm. thank you very much indeed for a very informative talk erm i am actually, myself, er a chartered structural engineer so, what you had to say was of, of deep interest to me! unfortunately i'm rather pessimistic about the situation obviously at the moment! erm, i think er your idea of of getting the ins professional institutions together mm. to work for a common goal is admirable! but, i do suspect that erm i think we're all probably guilty of guarding our own that's right! very mhm. very,je jealously but, none the less, i i think er it's admirable that er you're attempting to do this! erm again, you say that you're going round to all the schools and what have you, and again, this can only be extremely good because, after all, this is where the future engineers ar are going to be coming from! erm ha! regarding the current situation, recession,i it's really hitting, particularly my er, my er business mm. yeah. in the construction side mm. erm er and one wonders after all the training where the future jobs are gonna come that's right! from! aha. to be absolutely honest! i think that er quite honestly, if so if something doesn't happen shortly we'll all be making ping-pong ping-pong ball ! erm, and, and i think sadly, as well the problem is that if this recession does go on for any length of time then we will be losing many of our mm mm. erm manufacturing that's right! skills! you will indeed! and which we will never get back! mm. er, as i say, i'm ra , i'm very pessimistic about it at the moment but ha! none the less, thank you very much indeed donald for giving us a very er encouraging talk! mm! erm, informative and probably above all, a very enthusiastic talk! mm. yes! i'd like to ask all the members yeah! yeah! to show their appreciation in, in the usual way. i've got some brochures if you'd like to take them away. mm. how's that for timing! yeah,! he was kicking my leg all the while! oh, just one little notice i do have that erm several of us are going on thursday to the, on the trip to docklands by the erm erm rotary club of sawbridgeworth erm i'm told that there are still one or two odd seats if anybody wants to come at the last minute er, he doesn't anticipate he's going to erm fill them so even if, late wednesday night you suddenly find you are available, by all means, contact and i'm sure it can be arranged. er, it's seven fifty per head coach from harlow at nine in the morning get back again about five, we intend to beat the rush hour and it's a conducted tour of docklands and the city airport with a guide, and also viewing of the visitor's centre at docklands, and then about two and a half hours, probably three, to roam around the area yourself. if anybody's interested contact me and i will be only too happy to put you forward. i've also had a call from, you may remember er, phil of the er, the was to give a talk to the bishop's stortford club in the form of a speaker evening. i understand that that, that has now been cancelled erm, at least, the speaker has been cancelled but the evening still goes forward on monday the sixteenth and they've now got a jockey whose name i can't remember, i'm sure john would be able to help me but er he's one of several. erm er, who will giving the talk for them. er, at the time, we had no response when this was announced by jim erm, it does in fact clash with our council meeting but in view of the fact that erm our business meeting se , in december is not until the second monday, i would be happy to put the erm council meeting back to the following monday if there was sufficient interest from the members. but erm, if so, please get in touch before wednesday as they've, he rang me up last night and asked for a final figure from us which he must right. have by wednesday. erm eight pound fifty is the cost on that one gentlemen. it's seven fifteen for seven forty five at presumably their club meeting place which is the erm oh!school. yeah. centre . i can't see the name there. however anybody interested get in touch and we'll sort things out. gentlemen, the sergeant at arms! thank you mr president! next week we're going up the river! we're going with mrs gill on their canal boat project and our hosts are michael and ken . thank you gentlemen! i'll now close the meeting with the final toast will you please join me? the toast is rotary, the world over! rotary! thank you! well done! okay! any , yeah. they're five p gentlemen! would you like one? yes i'll have one please. no thank you. hello mike! alright? would you like one? yes, go on then! thank you. yes. very good! so what we do is is what this er solicitor would have done in relation to it. yes. and it it really is covered by the passages in erm erm, just, i just reiterate that that that expressly referring your lordship to it,professional duty except in so far as it may be necessary to elucidate the rules that that was at page eight hundred and forty one at the bottom and it goes over the page to eight four two and then proceeds to general proposition to those two experts ordinary witness may not may not give their opinions towards matters legal or moral obligation. my lord to say that that evidence will not assist you and shouldn't be received. . my lord if i could question it. it is not, er this evidence does not go to a matter of law er er and the duty but it matter of practice and my lord what this case is dealing with is about what if, what is or should be the practice of a solicitors engaged in commercial conveyancing as to the advice that is given to clients and er my lord the er commercial conveyancing is obviously a matter which particularly concerns . can i, can i take it this way. analysing your opening to me you were saying that there's expert evidence that solicitors instructed in the purchase of a property must ask about financial arrangements and advise about them. secondly it is the solicitors must advise about clause twenty two and thirdly well that's about it really, isn't it . well my lord and yet because the other's factual. yes but my lord d dealing also with the suggestion by the defendants that it would have been improper to advise him to serve completion notice when he wasn't in a position to complete and the solicitor deals with the the expert deals also with that position as to what is the practice of a solicitor in that situation if there's a potential er problem for that particular solicitor to what the advice should be as to how the client should deal with the that. well that depends on the terminology of the of the rule doesn't it. does that require expert advice? well i think that the way the case is put is that . let's just have a look at them have you got the general conditions here? yes there is, there is a bundle er a and what it deals with is the availability to a purchaser of the service of the special notice to complete er if the vendors are not completing and then if don't comply with it within a certain time limit, the contract is rescinded. now of course that, it is the defendant's case i anticipate, erm is er, although there's nothing specific in the rule about it, is said to be er only a possibility for a plaintiff if the plaintiff when they sell, he or she served the notice to complete is in a position to be able to complete himself and here . well he's got to be in a position to complete by the time the notice runs out . well i i think its, the way that the plaintiff puts the case on that point my lord is that even if the defendant mr took the view er that it would not have been proper for such a notice to be served, in view of what the plaintiff was saying to him about his wish to get out of the contract, the fact that it was available to him should have been brought to his attention and then as mr was saying that i sorry i don't feel i can do this on your behalf because it's not proper in the circumstances or whatever erm, should then have gone on to advise the plaintiff either to do it himself or to go and seek independent advice. but should, to say nothing at all, the matter not being drawn to the attention at all was, was not right. so the those are the issues, the factual issues of the matters at issue. but my lord what erm i er, a notice to complete is a, is a notice to complete and not a notice to withdraw. certainly, certainly i i accept that. but i i don't erm from the nature of mr justice in the midland bank that there's a a well known but w what i say is that in this case er what your lordship will be dealing with are essentially what are matters of practice for conveyancing solicitors when faced particularly with clients er making financial arrangements to enter into this and the duties of in that particular situation . does it really help to call them, label them that of practice er mrs because the end of the day they're not matters of practice, they're matters of law. either they're under duty or they're not. well if that were so my lord then there would never be any any solicitor's negligence claims, in which any expert was ever called to give evidence because it's always going to be eventually a matter of law as to what the defendant's duty is but what the er what the plaintiff had not said at any stage is that a matter of law is ever going to be admissible and in fact the is justice our in the course of er er a case in which he, despite expressing reservations about the admissibility of the evidence, plainly admitted it because he was within the course of his judgement. er, he may be concerned but my lord erm, there has been reference to the er the professional negligence and and my lord there is a bit i have in court, i'm afraid the second edition because the third edition which is the latest, was not available to me this morning, but there's a paragraph in it and i want to refer your lordship to it, i wonder if i might read it and er hand it up to your lordship. what i'm just checking to see is erm,it appears in, does your lordship have the ? is this actually a book that er is going to be of any assistance to me? i think well my lord it might those authors are still alive aren't they hopefully. my lord in my submission it will be yes, because of there's some er reference. well why don't you just adopt their verbiage as part of er won't have to pay any copyright fees for doing that. can i just ask you to look at page three hundred and forty of and . yes have you got it? i don't think we've got it. er i thought your lordship had it, i'm sorry i thought i'd your lordship . no i haven't got it. oh i'm sorry my lord perhaps i could read the passage out and then er i can hand it up to your lordship but it after setting out the dictor from mr justice in the midland bank. erm the editors say that, and i rely upon this because it's important in my submission, that it is submitted that a wider view might be taken as the function of a solicitor as expert witnesses. while of course the extent of the solicitor's duty is ultimately a question for the court, surely this is a mixed question of fact and law. even if there is no directly relevant practice of the profession, the evidence of other practitioners as to what they do in similar cases and why, is likely to be of benefit to the court. a knowledge of the working of a solicitor's office, particularly er o of those departments handling non-contentious business, cannot be automatically imputed to the judge or to council and he may as well make it is not uncommon for an expert witness to give evidence of what he would have done in a particular situation after consideration and er i resign on that because in my submission er the issues in this case are clearly issues of mixed fact and law and my lord it is seen from the report handed up that there is particularly in relation to the erm financial aspect of the case, reference to a provision within a professional conduct of solicitors guide as to what the nature of the er duties of the solicitor in the situation is. er and i rely well, that's that's not in dispute you can, you can put in that er that guide. yes . although in fact you haven't pleaded it er . no my lord it's not pleaded certainly, but it, but it's part of the expert report . it should be , it should be if it's part of the basis upon which you are making an allegation that a duty arises. well my lord i don't know you are saying that whether it could properly be said that it's a duty because it's not, it's a guide, er the question arises as to whether it's a duty but of course it's here, it's always been in the expert's report incorporated in it the reference to it erm but er lord in my submission er it is undoubtedly correct that your lordship would be greatly helped by hearing evidence from a solicitor engaged regularly, frequently, in commercial conveyancing work as to what the extent of the practice, the accepted practice and the professional standards operated by solicitors in this field and see what his qualifications are shall we? he's an expert and to to tell us what the practice is. yes my lord er you can see that er on page one in paragraph one two, he is a partner in a firm of he qualified as a solicitor in nineteen seventy three and became a partner in nineteen seventy six and since qualifying, so that er some twenty five years ago, he has dealt primarily with commercial and residential conveyancing and his contained in paragraph one and three er he's been asked to advise on the extent of the duty of professional care and skill in relation to mr financing the transaction and the extent to which they were under an obligation to advise mr of any opportunity to rescind. well that doesn't show any er expertise in what goes on in a solicitor's office at all. well my lord. we may know what practices and particularly his own what what he can he tell me about what er the practice of solicitors up and down the country? well, he's b the second part, he's basing his opinion on clearly what the plaintiff's case is about what he was, what he was telling mr to do. i accept that erm and of course he's dealing with it, approaching it from the basis that that factual issue is one she's resolved in favour of the plaintiff erm it may be that there's very little issue between us, it may be that the defendant would concede if your lordship were to find that er the plaintiff had been asking mr on several occasions to get him out of the contract, it may be conceded, i know not. the that condition should or would have been drawn to his attention, that is the major factor in this dispute which goes . but the expert is dealing also with the financial aspect of the claim.. but er isn't the situation here that er vi advisor to very eminent solicitors and so are the defendants in this case yes indeed. w w what w what am i to infer from this expert reports? that they are solicitors who would have handled the situation differently from er the defendants . well my lord the issue is that the defendants deny they were under any duty to offer any advice about financial . yes but i can't receive expert evidence on that because that's the very thing i have to decide isn't it? my lord it will be helped in that situation in my submission by evidence from which is dealing with what is the accepted and standard practice in that solicitors in handling these forms of transactions and what advice is given my lord undoubtedly that must be of benefit to the courts. i know not, it may be that mr is saying this is something that that never it's never i've never understood it to be er part of my practice or part of any solicitors practice to offer such a and if we have a solicitor er who has constantly practised in his skills for a very lengthy period of time, that is saying oh yes it is because this, as far as i'm concerned,standard advice which solicitors should give to clients transactions. your lordship must be helped in that considerably, by that evidence. to resolve that conflict between them. i can't fault a solicitor er to say that that there's no practice unless i call an expert to give that opinion. mr who's the defendant of course,. you haven't pleaded any practice mrs , you haven't pleaded any practice. well, my lord the case is about the practice of solicitors and i've pleaded upon the practice, that's part of the statement . it's not about the practice of solicitors, it's pleaded that there's breach of contract. my lord it's pleaded that there's common practice in the statement of claim. well you haven't pleaded a term of the contract that there's a practice to which all solicitors are subject that they have got to do this that and the other. my lord with the greatest respect that that clears my submission from the pleadings, er in the statement of claim. in paragraph four specifically paragraph four page seven. that the negligence or rather the breach of the implied term, was failing to ensure as is the common practice amongst solicitors that the proposed source of finance had in fact agreed both finance for the transaction and the term thereon. that is clearly pleaded my lord now unless i can call mr to say er yes it is er i cannot deal with . does common practice means does common practices means it's a practice which is common or well, yes. not common to all of them but yes common amongst them. yes the that is the a practice. now i unless i can call mr to give evidence that it is, i cannot deal with mr er contention which may be, anticipated in the witness box,. because er unless i can call er a conveyancing solicitor to say yes it is common practice er the plaintiff is proceeding very much at a disadvantage . i i it's clearly the defendants case that it's not malpractice and as mr is undoubtedly going to say . there's plenty there's plenty of legal authority of course on this very question isn't there? well my lord no there isn't, that that is in my submission, there isn't. oh isn't there in my submission there isn't . well you surprise me. i seem to remember several cases in which the court considered to what extent the solicitor involves himself in the financial arrangements for a conveyancing transaction. well my lord not er so far as i'm aware. we are dealing specifically with a lack of information for commercial conveyancing and the extent that the conveyancing solicitor duties in that situation. that is the, that is the key to it in my submission. because that is what is at issue between the parties. the er the defence case is that er there was no duty a and in my submission it must be of assistance to your lordship to determine that issue to hear evidence from both sides upon whether there is such a practice and if there is what the extent of it is. a a and that is my submission, it is not a matter of law but a matter of fact a and practice. thank you mrs . at this stage i take the view it is very unlikely that there's anything in this expert evidence that will be of the slightest assistance to me and i'm not going rule it out. question of omitting it doesn't arise unless until we get to that part of the plaintiff's case and erm i shall hear the evidence of the plaintiff and the other witnesses first and the advocation can be renewed in due ti in due course at the proper time. i'm not encouraging it because as i say i really, present time i can't see that it's going to be of any assistance to me to have the opinion of solicitors from er from any part really, from the defendant or or someone else. on these matters. my lord er those er in essentially are the matters to which erm i wanted to draw your lordship's attention in . er, my lord may i say that er in relation to the witness statement erm, clearly the credibility of this, the plaintiff mr is going to be substantially in issue er and therefore er i propose er not to simply to tell him er and say erm in your witness statement your evidence erm but clearly to take him to those areas which are in dispute and to ask him to deal fully with them in i appreciate it's going to erm take some time to do that but it is important in my submission that your lordship has the ability to er assess the plaintiffs . yes. erm and my lord i hope that do you in fact wish me to read the evidence in this case?you have decided that have you? well my lord as i said as i said at the beginning i think the both mr and myself considered that it might er assist your lordship considerably if you have some time now to read er the witness statements and the reports from the expert which are in bundle three and indeed erm. the experts er they deal with the the damages yes don't they? yes and i i i think y my lord the plaintiffs will be cross examined quite considerably on the damages claimed and i think it might help your lordship to see erm the way . the case in which the the evidence on damages is going to possibly erm enable me to form a better view of the credibility of the witnesses. well my lord i think or or why or do we need to try this, go into this business of a fairly complicated damages assessment as part of the liability claim. sorry my lord. well my lord i must say it had occurred to me erm that certainly on the basis on which i'm contending for damages to be assessed with the plaintiffs and it is completely irrelevant, er er many of the matters to which the defendant's expert goes to as to the damages and the extent to which they were caused by the negligence of the defendant, the breach of duty. erm, but my lord er i think the difficulty is that as far as my learned friend is concerned er he takes the view and it's probably better for him to develop this your lordship, that the matters cannot properly be separated and he wishes your lordship to deal with them in total so that er the whole picture can be seen at liability stage. yes. to enable him to cross examine the plaintiffs as er he sees appropriate. yes alright. er my lord it's been. i'm i'm a bit reluctant to embark on a, on reading reports of this nature which are liable to mean very little to me till i devote, until i've obtained the view from the yes. from the general history of what the case is about. yes my lord i i i'm not going to invite your lordship t to take a great deal of time reading reports that state in detail erm but i think the witness statements and i think probably the documentation that might help your lordship at this stage er to see something of the and to ensure that where evidence is given it can proceed fairly fairly quickly. mr is er twenty five pages. mr is er eighty pages. my lord i'm more than happy to for your lordship not to not look at the details of the accountant's evidence at this stage a and concentrate on the witness statements and the documentation which which deals with liability matters. so it's bundle. it's part a trial bundle trial bundle two one of two of the pleadings. part a one and two and then er part b bundles one, two and three er my lord you want to look at the documentation which is dealing specifically with the purchase of the wine bar. it starts at page one seven eight pages one seven eight to forty effectively deal with the the crucial aspects of . er i'm sorry i hadn't quite understand, understood how you, trial bundle a one is the pleadings bundle. yes my lord the witness statements . yes i well i did have one of those. yes. but i give it back to er cos i have two pleadings bundles. ah yes, one was paginate i think and one wasn't my lord. and the pleadings bundle which i've got also seems to be erm from your side but it's er seems to be the trial bundle that was lodged with the court rather than the one that you've a different order and different pagination. yes does your lordship have trial bundle two part a, the witness statements. pardon. does your lordship have part a trial bundle two? yes i do. yes the witness i have one and two now and i give this back to the associate, he can keep that and you can keep this one. and er my lord you can have that one back. the the documents that my learned friend and i think would be most useful to your lordship to read at this stage would be pages one seven eight four two five. where do i find those? my lord trial bundle part b er and then er bundles one and two. you're not asking me to read the part er b at all at this stage . my lord . my learned friend and i thought that if your lordship wanted to look at the documentation so that your lordship is familiar with some of the documentation which is going to be referred to in the evidence, er simply to enable your lordship to be er a little more familiar with the nature of content of some of the documentation then the crucial documents are those of pages one seven eight to four two five, bundle b. what oh d bundle b. yeah. which is in part one and two, files one and two. yeah. er er that together with the witness statements my lord i think . well that is, that's getting on for two hundred and fifty pages of document. my lord yes of course. but i think it's time, i think we both agree that the time er well used because it's for the because your lordship will have a better understanding of the evidence when the plaintiff and the defendant give it from the witness box. yes well it strikes me that this case involves some very narrow issues really it's generated an awful lot of paper. it has my lord. well now how long is this going to take me? well erm my lord i don't know whether you'd like to take certainly the rest of the afternoon and sit again tomorrow at ten thirty to get a clean start, having read all the documentation or whether you feel that you could read it before then. i think that there's a lot for your lordship to read but i think it might be beneficial in the long run, it was certainly, our experience has been that it certainly would take time in the long run but to deal with it this way. yes, well er what do you say mr . well my lord as a time saver it would quite er how my er learned friend went through the documents,i it in the contents she would otherwise make and one suspects that it would take a great deal longer. my lord it may help to say that if your lordship does this reading my lord, i don't intend to take your lordship through the documents any more myself in opening, because i think once your lordship has has seen the extent of it, i'm going to call mr to give evidence and go to through the documentation that way, once. er, and i don't intend to take up any more of the court's time simply opening myself documentation and making points upon it. obviously preferable to get evidence given about the documentation which is why i advise, consider it necessary for your lordship to familiarise yourself with it now. well if i'm going to read this er at all properly it's going to take me all afternoon isn't it? that's that's what the parties want. my lord i think it's right that that it's clear from the discussions i've had with mr that the plaintiff is going to be in the witness box for some considerable time and i think if your lordship's had an opportunity to read the witness statement, seen the areas of dispute, the nature of the the fact that arised and had a look at some of the documentation, it would be much er er a much speedier process than it would otherwise be. very well then i i'll adjourn into chambers and i don't require the attendance of the parties or council until tomorrow morning. members of the jury and you'll be pleased to hear that i'll be doing that quite quickly. can i start however by telling you what this case is not about. it's not about police corruption. it's not about racism in the police force, it's not about dishonesty amongst police officers. it's not about violence or brutal police officers and i say that because for the last few years there's been an awful lot of publicity about the particularly in the metropolitan area and i ask you you will have read some terrible things about certain police officers. put those out of your mind. indeed yesterday you may well seen on on the news, heard on the radios, seen in the papers, forget such attacks. it's also not about macho, gun , gung ho policeman as has been suggested . what it is about, members of the jury, is a very professional police force doing the best they could in the circumstances. and what do they try to do, they were trying, above all else, to protect you and i, the general public. and this is a police force, you will remember, mr telling you very remarkable characteristic. never in it's entire history has it shot a gun in anger at a human being. and what does that tell you, members of the jury, about this police force? what does it tell you about their professionalism? now in this case the police have the burning proof we have to satisfy you of in particular three things. firstly as you have probably already gathered, we have to satisfy you that there were reasonable grounds to believe that lawrence was in the flat, the plaintiff's flat. secondly we have to satisfy you that in order to that flat they used only reasonable and necessary force. and thirdly we have to satisfy you that in the circumstances of the operation the police were justified in restraining mr with handcuffs for the short period of time that he was restrained and in addition mrs who you will remember was restrained in her lounge, she was told she couldn't leave the lounge, again for a few minutes. and members of the jury we don't that we have to prove that to you. and in a nut shell, it is our case, we say the police, what the police did was reasonable in the circumstances and indeed to go any further and say what they did was necessary in the circumstances. there was no realistic alternative. of course in he many years later to debate whether other alternatives could have been adopted. what other courses of action could have been pursued. we say to you, taking all the facts into consideration the officers did in due course, there was no other . there may be few actual options that lawyers can ponder over . but there was no other realistic option. and why do we say that? why do we say there were reasonable grounds? well members of the jury it is because we've set the course that acting upon in itself would not have been enough. that's and he couldn't and then mount this sort of operation. having seen just one or two pieces of the jigsaw, but the police didn't act on one or two pieces they put the rest of the jigsaw together and what did they have. well they had the information that you will hear in due course, in just a few moments, from the caller. the person who phoned up appeared to be perfectly genuine. there was nothing about the man's voice, nothing about what he said that cast any doubt on his motives. and he told them that was in the flat that you know about and that there was suspicion that other occupants of the flat were in danger. now what do the police know at the time. when they heard that information they knew that lawrence was indeed on the run from prison, that he'd escaped. they also knew that he was a violent man, a man prepared not only to handle shotguns, but to saw off the barrel and to shoot sawn off shotgun at human beings. they knew all that. but they knew a little bit more than to put the together. they also knew that lawrence was a and knew and there's one final piece of information members of the jury, that which the police knew. the knew mr himself was no angel. that he had the long record of offenses, mainly dishonesty and some for violence against the police. and they put all those factors together and they weighed up the alternatives and you've heard some of them already. the , they weighed that up. the idea was of staking out the estate and counting on someone at the appropriate moment. they weighed up the prospect of knocking on the door and members of the jury, you have to consider in due course whether they got that act right. and you will do so by listening to all the other officers who will give evidence in the case. the this is what the police say. they had to risks didn't they. one risk was that if they didn't act there was a gunman on the loose, desperate, he's after all escaped from prison, possibly in a confined space in a block of flats with a vantage point. that was one risk. they risk leaving him there and him going on to do damage to personal property. a very serious risk. on the other hand there was the risk which in fact materialised which is that in mounting such an operation they would frighten innocent members of the public it was open to the jury, we don't swing from the fact that mrs and her children were clearly frightened, no doubt about that, it must have been a terrifying experience. but those are the two risks the police had to weigh up and what they will tell you is that one risk, a gunman on the loose, is a potential to main and kill, one is far, far more serious than the risk of causing some temporary fear and fright of little children. and the that mr and other officers never like to mount an armed operation, never. if they can avoid it, they never would. but it was the only option available to them. and you'll hear two sorts of evidence in this case. you'll hear evidence from those officers that took the decision to get into the flat. that's the first and they'll be the ones that will be able to tell you why they've taken that decision and why we say it's a reasonable decision. then you'll hear from the second of officers namely the officers that went into the flat that were carrying the guns, carrying and who conducted the operation and from their evidence you'll be able to judge whether or not the force used was reasonable and was necessary. members of the jury whilst you're listening to these officers ask yourself a number of questions as they're going along. do they all look to you as professional men and women? are they considered in their judgement? are they temperate? do they keep their cool? are they ? firm, perhaps. decisive, do they show any compassion? and weigh those matters up in your mind as you hear one evidence after the other. and ask yourself a question, are they really a sort of dirty harry or sweeney sort of officers you would be lead to believe. in front of your mind because the picture's intended by the plaintiff's is that these are reckless, violent, thuggish officers, stealing into a place with no regard for anyone else. we say nothing could be further from the truth and indeed to get any if you read just one newspaper this morning we will say from that which you will actually see in the witness box. because after you listen to the evidence will be that these are professional officers doing a very difficult job and members of the public, members of the jury create very dated job they have the one objective i've told you about to protect members of the public from further harm from what they thought was an armed criminal on the run. finally members of the jury by way of opening tonight, ask you to be warned about two things. firstly it is inevitable and natural and quite proper that you should have a sympathy, in particular for mrs and her children and . none of us it is a matter of extreme regret that they were terrified in the way they claim they were, but that sympathy must not be allowed to cloud your judgement on the issue about whether the police were reasonable. secondly members of the jury, please don't do what the press are always doing which is act on the basis of hyper. if the police had a crystal ball and a gypsy woman they could bring in and ask her to look and see what was in the flat, we wouldn't be here today would we? but they don't have a crystal ball, all they have is their judgement and they do what's best in the circumstances. the questions maybe that if they did what was reasonable, did they carry it out in a reasonable way. members of the jury that's all i wish to say to you by way of opening the case. and i'll now call a number of the officers to explain their case of their own. thank you. my lord call elaine . take the book in your hand and repeat after the . i swear by almighty god. i swear by almighty god. that the evidence i shall give. that the evidence i shall give. shall be the truth. shall be the truth. the whole truth. the whole truth. and nothing but the truth. and nothing but the truth. thank you. miss could you just confirm your full name and your address? elaine , do i have to give my home address? give your work address. work address and miss it's an extremely big court with a very very high ceiling, it's very difficult for all us to be heard. can you do your best to direct your answers to the other end of the court. yes. i told the witnesses yesterday, you may sit down or stand just as you wish. thank you. miss what was your job in december of nineteen eighty eight? i was a civilian controller operator. and where were you working at the time? at . and can you tell the jury, as briefly as possible, what that job entailed? basically it was receiving telephone calls from the public erm and using that information to put on a computer to send officers to incidents various incidents. erm i i missed at the beginning perhaps, that's your present job still is it? no that's not my present job, i've changed jobs since then. what do you do now. i'm a crime officer at . miss do you remember taking a telephone call from somebody about a mr lawrence . yes. can you remember roughly what time of day that was? it was approximately five fifteen, five twenty p m. and was the caller male or female? male. and from the caller's voice were you able to come to the view as to his age? it was five years ago but i believe his was he sounded fairly young i'd say about in his twenties. did, did he have any obvious accent? not that i can recall. miss what did the man tell you? erm, i can't remember the exact conversation but the basics of it were that we were looking for somebody called lawrence and he was at the present time at erm and that he was in possession of a gun and that the caller was concerned for the safety of the occupants of those premises. miss did you ask the caller for his name? i did yes. a and what did he tell you? he wouldn't give me his name because he was concerned that something would happen to him if he gave me his details. miss were you able to come to any view as to whether the call was genuine, from what you heard? as far as i was concerned the call did sound genuine yes. er miss what did you do next? i reported it to my section inspector mr . so he . miss or is it simply that er when the male rang up to say about lawrence at has a gun and that he is the caller who is concerned for the safety of the occupiers. did you say anything to the effect that lawrence was being harboured at the flat at or did he merely say he was concerned for the safety of the occupier? from what i can recall he just said he was concerned for the safety of the occupiers. my lord does your lordship have any questions? no thank you very much, miss you are free to leave is you wish to thank you very much. or stay and listen to the rest if you want. my lord next. raise the book in your right hand . i swear by almighty god. i swear by almighty god. that the evidence i shall give. that the evidence i shall give. shall be the truth. shall be the truth. the whole truth. the whole truth. and nothing but the truth. and nothing but the truth. inspector can you give the court your name and address? i'm inspector clive richard of i'm currently on the road traffic division in bedfordshire. at the time of this incident i was patrol inspector at . again inspector, just to help the jury and myself indeed, what does being a control inspector mean? i was in charge of a shift of, at that time, approximately twenty constables er four or five sergeants who do normal patrol work in uniform at . were you involved inspector, in the events leading up to the search of ? only in that i received the message from mrs of a telephone call. perhaps it's quicker if i ask you, you just heard about it. yes. can you confirm that what she told you? the information mrs gave to me was as she stated that erm an anonymous phone call had been made to the police station, which she had received. the information was that there was a lawrence at that address in luton, that he had a hand gun and that they were, the caller was concerned for the safety of the occupants of that flat. i you may memory, you added he had a hand gun that's what she told you? yes, that's . she told us just now merely that he said he had a gun but you you remember that it is a hand gun. hand gun yes sir. yes. inspector did you at the time, know of lawrence ? only by reputation. i was aware that he was an escaped prisoner. i didn't know him personally and i i wouldn't recognise him. and on receiving that information, inspector what did you do? my task was to assess the validity of the information taken over the phone and the only way i could do that was to contact someone who knew the lawrence situation. i telephoned the c i d department at in an effort to trace the officer who was dealing with that case. did you trace that officer? i didn't sir no erm, detective sergeant was the officer dealing with this erm lawrence . he was not available . did you speak to anyone else about the situation? on telephoning the criminal investigation department at i spoke to sergeant it was he that in fact suggest i called erm sergeant . then in the long run i did in fact to superintendent about the information we had gleaned from this telephone call. now about what time did you speak to superintendent ? i don't remember exactly sir, but certainly between the call at five twenty p m and what, say by six o'clock that evening. by the time you spoke to superintendent had you learned anything about the address that had been given to you? it was ascertained that that address erm, was occupied by the family again i don't know the . did you know anything about mr at that time? i didn't sir, no. what information were you able to pass on to superintendent ? when i found out the identity of the person owning or occupying the flat at i made enquiries at the police station's department in that office erm they they keep records of any , any information about persons in the area and beyond. information kept for police eyes only. a as a result of looking at that information, the collators department. did you learn anything? yes i learned that was in fact known to mr . so did you pass this information. well, did you did they tell you a little more than that i mean did they tell you that er mr played cricket with him or something like that or or what? he's known to him. a known associate sir. aware that had a criminal record himself as the department said. yes they did tell me that your lordship. i mean what we've heard that in fact erm they had met in prison, but was that known to you at that time or simply that they were known to each other and that had a record? the actual information you quote my lord wasn't known to me erm it was on the cards certainly and all this information was passed to superintendent . i made copies of the information and these this was given to superintendent . i see well it's perhaps ultimately the important thing but erm. what i was trying to say my lord was that i didn't know was associated or was associated at that time. i i i i'm until you spoke to the collators department, they told you simply that they knew each other. that's correct my lord. and that had a record. that's correct my lord, yes. i see and you arranged for more information to be passed on to superintendent is that it? that's correct my lord, yes. right no sir, my job was then to pass over to mr who made the ultimate decision as to what to do about the incident. it clearly wasn't something that the patrol section could do at that time. thank you very much . because we talking about the collators department, are those the one's intelligent? yes sir. did you actually see either er car or card?or was it all done over the telephone with somebody else looking at the card? i actually went to the office and er retrieved the card sir. and would you say from one of those cards, you found out that was er an associate of or the other way round? no sir. i i can't be sure where i got the information from but from that time until the end of my shift at ten p m i was gleaning information from all different directions about the and the connection. but we have the original cards here as my learned friend will correct me if i'm i'm wrong. neither card in fact, although they do give mention of the associates for both men, neither card says that associate of the other. so it obviously didn't come from the cards. no sir, it, i couldn't remember but erm i'm not surprised er between i was able to ascertain that the two were known to each other. well you see it may be important where the information came from, you didn't get it from the cards, you say you were getting information from all directions. i know it was long time ago, but can you now possibly recall where the information came from? i can't to be honest, no. i can remember ge obtaining the collator's cards erm and doing other enquiries but as to where that actual information came from i cannot be sure at this time. what erm what sort of other enquiries, the asking other police officers and that sort of thing? that would be part of it sir, certainly yes. would it have any other major part or is that the major part? sorry i don't understand. would the other, these other enquiries you made, would the major part of them be asking other police officers or is there any other way of getting information? to myself it's a matter of well my first reaction was to ask the c i d if they knew the situation between o of , that was my first response actually to when the phone call came in, but i knew very little about . it was then we found out who oc , who was the occupant of that flat then we started to look at the connection between and . and that's the only other question i have. how physically do you find out who's the occupant of a flat? you've got an address, if you give that to the collators departments they can give you a name for the occupier can they? the obvious way is through the voters register, erm as to whether as i say i don't know, can't remember exactly where we got the details of the occupant from but t in the course of that evening the details of the occupants were found. well yes it may be important and if if you can't to say but did you yourself in any event look at the voters register, the electoral role? i didn't sir no. so again, the information as to who was the occupier was obtained by somebody else and given to you verbally. i believe so sir, yes, erm i can't be specific at this time. thank you sir. i my examination my lord, does your lordship have any questions? no thank you. yes all the witnesses can leave when they've given their evidence if they wish to. my lord i call detective constable . how do you spell the name? my lord you spell it . good. . take the book in your hand and repeat after the . i swear by almighty god. i swear by almighty god. that the evidence i shall give. that the evidence i shall give. shall be the truth. shall be the truth. the whole truth. the whole truth. and nothing but the truth. and nothing but the truth. would give your full name and address. er, michael david er currently stationed at . and er what's your current rank? detective constable. and in nineteen eighty eight where were you based? a at . and were you a detective constable then? yes i was. and what was your job at the time? er i was a field intelligence officer. detective could you just say to the jury what a field intelligence officer is? er my job was to er obtain intelligence on er active, known criminals and also to develop intelligence that had been obtained by other officers. now before we come to the matter that the jury in this case, could you tell me had you ever been to the estate? yes. prior to this? erm yes. a and h had you ever been there to conduct any surveillance operations? er yes on a couple of occasions. tell the jury what it was like conducting a surveillance operation on that estate. er, very, very difficult er on each occasion after about an hour er we were approached by people, knocking on the windows of our cars, asking us what we were doing. and you were in plain clothes were you yes i was and in a plain clothes car yes i was. a plain car. yes. was your intention to be not seen . er yes. so it didn't work. er, no obviously. now when mr did your did you have an involvement in the decision to mount the operation at in september of nineteen eighty eight. er, not in the decision, i i spoke to mr and he asked me certain questions. yes well at that time, what did you know about lawrence ? er i'd known lawrence since, it was either, nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six. erm i knew that er he had escaped from prison. i knew he had previous convictions. er, i knew that er he had access to firearms. i knew that er the circumstances of him being in prison involved er a firearm and using that firearm. where he actually shot somebody with a sawn off shotgun. i had been told that er he'd made threats against his wife and er his wife was living with somebody else at that time and he'd made threats against him. er, i'd been told er that he'd been in prison with mr er i believe it was in nineteen eighty six and i'd also been told that in the past er and er had planned armed robberies together. did you convey any or all of that information to superintendent ? i told him everything i knew. did you obtain any of that information from the collators card or did you know it yourself? no i knew it, i i phoned mr er from my home address and er i i knew the information. a and just in case it er should become an issue can you now produce the originals of both collators cards? yes i can . yes. a and did those cards have photographs of the person they concern? yes they do. and just tell us the names of the two cards you've got there. er it's the cards regarding david and er the other cards involving lawrence . and my lord this stage against those cards. now let me just have a look at them thank you. my lord i can tell you that i do have a copy for the jury if your lordship thinks . well we'll see if there, if there well the jury can have a look at them if they want, certainly if er if neither side think they're going to be of any assistance then there's not much point in producing them. it doesn't actually say i i i was just looking, it doesn't s seems to go up to september nineteen eighty six but not to say that he had escaped from prison. my lord it may be that the, it certainly should say that lawrence escaped, i in my photocopy caused the escape and who he escaped with. maybe i ah it opens up and goes further on. simple answer to that. if it's all er arrested for shooting of anthony sent to prison for five years plus six months for possessing a firearm with intent to endanger life. july nineteen eighty eight escape from prison at with one other a mr believed to have been a white mercedes lorry near the prison. and obviously, for whatever relevance it is, he was later on caught because the next entry after that is in march nineteen ninety one he was released on parole from prison. so he must have been caught in the meantime and sent back. my lord the reason i to make it clear is not er unnecessarily it's just that to enable a police had tried to not show anything, well we've got the documents here and we're very happy to receive them. oh i i think, i think they're here and mr has referred to them, the jury can have a look at them in due course. my lord yes. er that that i really said it it's got a history on to an ending with the bit i've referred to. and the other one which is er mr and that er has details of various convictions with er picture of his as a rather younger man er, various offences going back to nineteen seventy five and occupying quite a long space but there . well i don't think we need to, the jury need read them now but they're there and available for you to see in due course yes. good. well i think it's much better once things are served i think it's better the jury know that they're being shown everything of relevance. continuing told us what he knew about lawrence . could you now tell us what it is that you knew about mr ? as i said i i had been told that er he was associated with and they had been planning ar armed robberies in the past. er i knew that he lived at . i knew he had a wife, i didn't know whether he had children er and i knew that er he had previous history of er criminal nature. again did you convey that information about mr go superintendent ? yes i did. from your knowledge first of all, that lawrence can i ask you to of how you would regard the prospect of trying to arrest him while he was armed. erm, from what i knew of erm i knew he'd got access to firearms. i knew he'd used firearms in the past and because he was on the run from prison he obviously didn't want to be rearrested. yes mr if you wait there there'll be some more questions. yes, you got the cards, you can therefore confirm can't you that neither man an associate of the other on the cards. er yes that's correct. it may therefore become of some importance, who it was told you that they'd been in prison together and so were at least known to each other. can you remember that? erm, before the event i was told by more than one person. well can you remember who they were? no no. can you even remember whether this had been volunteered to you, weeks or months before or is this something you found out by asking around that day? er it was volunteered to me before that day. mr may i ask you also had been told by somebody that they been planning armed robberies together. i don't suppose you can remember who told you that? no no i can't. you can confirm this that there have been any convictions for er er er two men conspiring to commit armed robbery or anything of that sort have there? no no no previous convictions. mr got erm i understand that no convictions, even for armed robbery itself. no. i don't think lawrence got any convictions for armed robbery has he, or that there are any subsequently? er, no he's got no previous convictions for armed robbery. he's been suspected of committing armed robbery but no convictions. on the er second of december, did you speak to er mr the officer who just gave evidence? no i didn't. so it couldn't have been you that told him that er and were associates . no. i spoke to mr . do you know the circumstances in which er lawrence was recaptured? er no i i just know that he was er recaptured in nineteen eighty nine i believe. for instance er could you tell the jury whether there was er any violence or any firearms involved in that recapture? no i i cannot recall. i don't think it was in bedfordshire. i think it was somewhere else. but you are in you can't recall. no i did visit lawrence in prison after he was recaptured er and spoke to him about various things, including this er this incident and he did confirm that he had been at flat er for a couple of days er befo before the actual search. answers my question but it's of some considerable relevance isn't it. did he tell you that he'd been at flat i mean years before or near the date of this or what? no it was during the conversation he er he said that i hear that you went to flat and i said yes and he said er well you just missed me, i'd been there a couple of days before. well your honour there are a number of matters arising out of my lord, there are a number of mat matters arising out of that. yes. firstly it wasn't put secondly is inadmissible thirdly it wasn't marked as a question. fourthly i very much expect, although it's not obvious that erm my lord how it's going to be said. perhaps it's a matter that erm needs to be discussed at rather more length than that. well here you are. it's come out, it's part of, part of what we've heard. my lord rules of evidence apply in this court. it is not admissible as evidence, it's been volunteered to the jury erm my lord it needs to be dealt with in more detail than that . alright well to consider it in due course anyway, for the moment there it is. i am obliged. my lord nobody any questions. no as long as you've finished mr because i think you erm introduced the topic of erm when he was recaptured. my lord yes. my lord let me speak plainly, i introduced the topic of when he was recaptured, i asked nothing about what was. no, i i agree with that but i wondered if you had stopped because you introduced the topic and then when when this involuntary and unexpected answer came up you sat down and i thought you might have pursued your original questions. my lord no. i have an application to make to your lordship er in due course when your lordship feels it is appropriate for an application to be made. alright fine. good, well thank you mr . my lord call superintendent . my lord on reflection before er this officer gives evidence, er unless your lordship rules otherwise i'd like to make that application now and er that would allow the er jury a short period of erm rest until . well i is it simply an application that the jury be directed to take no notice of the answer you've just missed me, because it's not admissible evidence. no it's right, it is not just an application for that effect. i see alright well or i i invite members of the jury, the council wants to to address me on some point of law which needn't concern you, so if you take a short break please. the council says it will be short, i don't know what it is yet. mr had better remain while this is going on. remain in court mr . yes mr . my lord this is course made i apologise for the of authority to support it. er, in my respectful submission er some of inadmissible evidence put before a jury are simply too important and too central for a jury to be directed to disregard and then safely er to the which we known that the jury will disregard them. if for instance this was a criminal trial as to which will rule this to inadmissibility exactly the same. in my respectful submission there could be a, no question that the jury would be discharged and b, in the submission er some er judicial displeasure of an experienced police officer volunteering what any police officer must know is a inadmissible and b not an answer to the question. now my lord i'm i make the application with no with no joy at all but the for a day this matter has proceeded on the basis that yes these two men might have known each other, but that's as far as it goes. nothing else . well no erm didn't he, didn't mr say he had met ? oh but my lord yes, but what i meant was nothing else was put as a far more serious suggestion. s so then the evidence is that they did know each other, begging what know exactly entails, but that's not in dispute. no it isn't but what was not put was that er if the police had got there a couple of days earlier they would have caught because i was half . it wasn't put here, unfortunately of course in this case there have been no witness statements exchanged. it's another oddity about this case, an irregularity i would say, all these cases always have an exchange of witness statements. why weren't they exchanged in this case? well as i understand it the er these lawyers for the defendants took the view that as all the statements had been prepared for the police complaints authority investigation, public immunity er yes er public interest immunity attached to them. i don i should also say that following a very recent decision er in our submission that's probably right, that my lord as i say, i say to you with no joy, this really is desperate and er one cannot have, in our submission,in the minds of the jury by inadmissible evidence, the suggestion that yes we have been harbouring this man two days before. it . but it's not part of the the police case here, that they knew at the time that they entered the flat. that that er had been in the flat two days before. this was something which has come out that an officer was told by for better, for truth or for untruth a year or so later. yes my lord but postulate this situation. the jury comes to a conclusion that er the police er took whatever degree of reasonableness was breached, that the raid shouldn't have been made on the day it was. when they come to consider the plaintiff's damages, it must be highly material that they then may say to themselves, however, this would family was harbouring this dangerous criminal two days beforehand. well, i think it's premature any isn't it mr . on the state of the evidence at the moment, it may well be that there will be a request for to withdraw the case from the jury on the grounds that no reasonable jury properly directed could conceivably find er a anything other than reasonableness in the police acting upon the information they had and that's for me to decide. well,e e er my lord . an an and to speak quite bluntly on the state of the evidence at the moment it seems that that is a very possible end to this case, in which case, in which case the jury won't even get round to having this matter. my lord there will be as your lordship will know, my friend and i have been er talking outside about questions. there are other subsidiaries used that do have to go through the jury, particularly what happens in relation to mrs and the children, as my friend opened it to erm opened it to the er jury. but, but erm what subsidiary questions? as regards mrs er and the children, whether er it's now been admitted that she was arrested and kept in that living room, whether that arrest er was lawful or not. as regards res as my friend put it in opening, the police were justified in restraining mr and mrs in the way that they were restrained. those are matters that are going to have . but even if. your lordship may well find it was reasonable for the police to act on this information. but that still leaves for the jury in submission, a, whether they used reasonable force yes reasonable to act, but was it reasonable force to act, was it a reasonable method of acting, by which i mean time of er, time of the incident. well again that may be that erm the evidence will be such that i think that i ought to erm give the decision on it. i don't know yet, let's hear all the evidence. well i'm it'll stop that your lordship erm from er er from so holding. but i'm not going to discharge a jury in a case where i think it quite possible the jury won't be required to give any, to give any verdict. well my lord so be it. the application's been made i didn't want to waste time before making the application and it had been very well, thank you mr . i must just stretch my legs while the jury are coming back alright. yes mr next witness. lord i call superintendent please. take the book in your hand i swear by almighty god. i swear by almighty god. that the evidence i shall give. that the evidence i shall give. shall be the truth. shall be the truth. the whole truth. the whole truth. and nothing but the truth. and nothing but the truth. . yes sir, i'm michael charles er police superintendent in the at present stationed at er at the time of this incident i was the operations superintendent at . erm superintendent were you involved in the decision to forcibly enter the flat we know about? yes sir i was. and how did your involvement begin? on the evening of sunday the fourth of november, er i received a telephone call at my home address from er inspector . he told me that the telephonist at the police station had received a telephone call from a man saying that an escaped prisoner, a lawrence er was to be found at er the home of a david and that the er lawrence was in possession of a hand gun. superintendent what was your response or your initial reaction to that information? i needed more er information on both of those persons, david and lawrence er and i asked inspector er to make enquiries regarding those persons and to come back to me with that information. and er did he get back to you? yes er he eventually er i in fact spoke to a detective inspector er at the police station er he informed me that er detective constable had a good knowledge of these persons and i therefore instructed that er d c make contact with me which he did a short time later that evening. and er perhaps you could briefly confirm what information he gave to you. he told me that he knew both individuals er that lawrence er was an escaped prisoner. er that he had received a prison sentence er for in fact being in possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life. he reminded me of the circumstances of the incident resulting in that conviction which er was in fact that erm had actually er fired a weapon at a person causing injury. did he er tell you anything about ? yes sir he told me that er would know because they ha had been together in prison and that he also had information that they had been planning armed robberies together. superintendent did you er ask d c to give his opinion of a non-armed intervention? yes, er i i asked p c if his relationship er with was such that he would have any influence er with regard to erm getting him to er surrender er. his view was that erm if he was armed he had been armed in the past, he had discharged a firearm, he felt that er he would be in a desperate position erm, as he was an escaped prisoner and that he he wouldn't have erm any influence over him. did you er superintendent yourself consider whether perhaps there should be some undercover surveillance of this flat? yes i did. what view did you arrive at? there are a number of options erm that i considered. i considered erm arm unarmed officers actually making an enquiry er at the flat. but erm did not pursue this er because i considered it too dangerous erm and any information you gained would not be conclusive. i considered keeping observation actually on the flat but because of its its location, did not feel that it would be possible for armed officers or for that matter, any officer,to maintain observation for any period of time without being seen. just pausing there a minute, did you have did you i should say, have personal experience of that estate? yes sir i did. did you then consider the use of guns, firearms? er yes. er, in the light of the information at that time and the options i had already considered erm i thought it was likely that we would need armed police officers. and er superintendent what did you do then? it is necessary i had come to that view for me, at that time it was necessary for me to contact one of the duty chief officers and on this occasion it was the assistant chief constable mr , so i made contact with him. a and what did you tell, ask him? well i gave him all the information that had been given to me and we discussed between us various options that were open to us. at the conclusion of which we were both of the view that an armed police operation was necessary and he therefore authorised armed police officers to be used and i was to command the incident. can you remember roughly what time on the fourth that conversation took place? that was at seven fifty p m. you said that you were in operational control. does it follow, if it's not an obvious question. you had overall control of the further implementation of this operation? yes sir, that's correct. so responsibility was in your hands? from that moment it was my responsibility. please tell the jury, on a sort of general point here, when you were in charge of an armed raid, what are the considerations? well, the consideration first of all, is the safety to the public. er the next consideration is the safety of the police officers and then we also take into account that in this priority the the safety of the er the criminal and an armed operation would not be taken if it was possible to achieve the objective er in some other way. but ultimately it is what is the safest option that i would have to go for. who was to be in in control of the tactics to be used for the operation? operational er commanders of incidents erm have a, what is called a firearms tactical advisor, er a highly trained officer who is made available to people in the position that i then found myself, er in order that they can advise as to the tactics to follow and my tactical advisor on this occasion was er sergeant . is sergeant someone you have worked with before? on a number of occasions yes. h how did you view the prospect of working with sergeant ? i i regarded him as a a professional, highly trained officer er confidence in his judgement. following the decision to mount the operation on the evening of the fourth of december, er did you have any further involvement indeed, as of that evening? yes erm i had, i then actually went to the police station to see if any further information was to hand, er i spoke again to inspector erm to ask if there was any further information he could give me. he said that his assessment, the telephonist's assessment of the call was that that he was genuine. he added at this time that the further information was that the occupants of the flat at we were frightened of i also . he had what did you say? he thought they were frightened or the telephonist or what? advisers, we have known them through the period their firm through the period of time quite a number of years, and we can federate er er testify to their integrity. and you are an independent body? that's right, yes. i'm sure you'll expound without me saying any further. yes. so john, thanks very much. over to you. thank you. erm right, well we've got the lights down, we'll perhaps er use some of the slides er later, but er if i can just introduce myself by saying that some of you will already know chris , this is the er nature of our business. er we are involved er quite heavily in local authority and teachers generally, through unions and through other connections, so erm some of you will have seen us advertised anyway. er there's the general insurance side which is based in bournemouth and you may have had to contact them on previous occasions for quotations for motor and er house insurance, that sort of thing. now, on erm the er insurance er the, the pensions and life side then that's my particular area, and obviously i'm based in birmingham for that, although i actually live in derby. so er i, i b basically go to the office one day a week, that's my admin day, and the rest, i, i tend to work within this area. er i suppose erm er the, most of the people i've seen in the last ten years have been people either approaching retirement, planning for retirement or actually at the point of retirement and er we've obviously looked at this course over a number of years and we try to sort of distil it down to the basics of things that we think are important er and that we think will be useful to you. erm so i'll start by looking at some of the er factors. now in this first session i really want to look at the way that er er financial planning will affect you once you, once you retire, it may be that's the sort of area you've not looked at in detail. well, i find nowadays, people are much better at planning their retirement than they used to be, maybe because people are more aware of the fact th they won't necessarily be teaching till sixty or that sort of erm age. and er certainly in teaching there's been quite a big change over the last ten years in the way that people perceive retirement. i can say that you know, lots of heads and deputies ten years ago would have said to me well, what is a pen i mean what pension do i get? do i get one from the state, or is it going to be, yes, where does it come from? and people have actually moved quite a long way in the direction of actually working out their own finances. and erm i think that er will be proved this morning, by the amount of knowledge that you er have between you. so er if i can just have the lights off at this stage please. lights off. thank you. focus it in for you. right. perhaps by er the blinds as well, that might help a bit. that one's possible at the front. right thank you. i think it's the other one. no it's the other one. it's all going so smoothly this morning isn't it? give it a chance, give it a chance. right, thanks a lot. so er er you've all participated well so far . so er as you can see, there is a fimbra logo on there, and that actually refers to the fact that we are regulated under fimbra er rules, that's the financial intermediaries and managers regulatory authority. now, don't worry too much about that, because er fimbra itself is a fairly new organization, and er it makes mistakes. as you probably read in the quality press, fimbra are always being taken to task for er not spotting investment groups that have gone too far, er and er when you get the collapse of something like the levitt group erm which you'll be aware of perhaps was the er sort of boxing and impresario type route that was taken by the man in the dicky bow. and er i think somebody said to me beware of the man who wears a dicky bow during the day. er this was a boxing promoter who reckons you should only wear them for er n evenings, obviously. so er that s er that firm collapsed and people lost money and er that's why fimbra is there, er to try and protect the investor. but, er i think a golden rule must be, when you're looking at financial er matters is er make sure you know who you're dealing with. because if you want to, if you want to beat the system, you can of course. i mean, er fimbra can do its regulatory bit, the same as the police can regulate or the, or the government can regulate, but only within certain er parameters, and if somebody really wants to cheat, then they will cheat anyway and er we've go we're in a very sophisticated position where the directors of b c c i were able to move money from one continent to another and it meant er it looked as if you'd actually got money in three separate areas, but in fact there was only one lot and it was being moved rapidly. erm but that sort of thing can always go on so er i mean as far as you're concerned, are a major broker, are er obviously, obviously a, a reasonable choice in that we are accountable. any major broker must be in the u k because er er they are exposed to the public view if you like, and if there are any errors or, or deceptions then they're likely to come up very quickly. so erm a golden er rule must be, avoid small operators that type of thing. they may be absolutely fine, and if you're going there for a number of years, you've probably got no er problem with them, but of course the smaller the organization the simpler is, it is for other erm factors to creep in. er now, on another topic, i will go back to the idea of regulation later, you'll see that life expectancy is obviously important and er when you're looking at retirement i mean it's always been described as the longest holiday of your life and it certainly is that, and life expectancy is rising all the time, these figures have actually been superseded. so you can actually er say that someone at sixty five will live slightly longer than the figures on the on the board here. these are provided by the actuarial statistics er er er section of the life office, and they're actually very accurate. erm but erm you'll notice first of all that there is a difference between male and female longevity. erm we won't go into a discussion about that this morning, but there are lots of reasons why females live longer on average than males. can you narrow it down to various professions on the er expectancies? oh absolutely yes. cos i've heard one . well most yes, it may have altered, yes. i mean actuarial erm a lot of it is er er not open to public view of course, life offices have their own views of it. and if you went to general accident and looked at their actuarial tables, they might be slightly different to other groups, but in that sense you're right. there are risk factors involved. for erm head teachers, if you retire at sixty, you can have fourteen,sixty five you've got one. right, yes. that's er for head teachers, yeah. i remember a, i remember er an a h t came out with some figures five years ago which may have prompted some early retirements then. er doesn't seem you've got too long once you've finished. er and i mean er a lot of that's perhaps the release of stress, so that you know you've been under pressure for a long time and then you, you take that away, and it may actually be detrimental to but er it doesn't, obviously the figures are a little bit odd. if you, if you look at the figures er for that male age fifty, and add on the twenty three, that's seventy three. but if you look at the sixty five and add on the twelve, it's er seventy seven and of course if you go on to the actuarial figures actually get better as you get older in terms of actual lifespan. so that if you've been really rough, and you're ninety nine, you can look at the figures and you've still got nearly four years left. but don't forget these are, these are actuarial averages, and er we, you know the thing about beating the system this is often down to your input as well. you know, whether you're relaxed, whether you're from a long lived family so on and so forth. i am not here to discuss that now, but i mean it's just to make sure that you know that things aren't planned for five years or ten years, but possibly for a lot longer than that. cos the we er did get people contacting the office to say i've got a lump sum, i'd like to put it somewhere for a couple of years, and er we always wondered why they're thinking of a couple of years. are they going to spend it suddenly in er two years time, or are they expecting not to be around in two years time? so i mean think about it as long term planning, and certainly for those under er sixty the long term becomes extremely long term because er you know you're looking at perhaps a third of your life er which is er still to be accounted for. er so these er are er the state pension arrangements, and you've had a speaker on state pensions anyway. i think these have got to be slightly updated with a new er with the new rates that have come through, cos that was right on six four ninety two. we haven't updated the slide yet. but the main thing is i it starts at sixty for women, sixty five for men, and of course that's erm important when you come to erm planning, because er if you've got er a male retiring at say fifty eight, he's actually got seven years to go before he, he draws state pension. and for a female it may be possible that she's not going to get a full pension anyway, she may have er had time out, not paid contributions right the way through etcetera. so a lot of the target planning i suppose that we've come across is people saying well when i retire, i shall actually go down to half salary at best, that's assuming th that you've actually made half, about half salary on your pension being forty eightieths or whatever. you've still got a fair gap to make up between that and your salary. and er with that in mind, it's possible that people do want to top up their income, because the one thing i will stress to you is that you don't want to have to start having to back-pedal er when you retire. you don't want to have things erm at a lesser level than you er started with. so when you're planning your retirement, make sure that you give yourself a reasonable standard of living in terms of income. er it's no good saying you'll turn down the central heating and you'll only take one holiday instead of two, that's not really the purpose of retirement, and i think you've got to be objective about what you're doing with this. er you'll find that we do have actually have a calculator which we can send out with a retirement pack and that actually gives you an aide-memoire to actually remind you about the things that you might forget erm with regard to erm things like er holidays er erm say, medical expenses, er fuel expenses, erm club fees, t v licence, all those things. if you've not done that exercise yet, it's quite a useful one to find out what figures you come up with. and er that will give you an objective starting point for what you actually need. cos what you actually need isn't just your monthly figure, is it? it is the er sort of er five hundred pounds that goes out your bank account on direct debits, it's all the other incidentals during the year, and even er you know gifts for children, pets in the case of some people, if you've got er large dogs or whatever, then you know there's vet's bills, food, etcetera, that you know, is probably incidental at the moment, but not when you retire. so try and do that as objectively as you can, and don't forget if you've got a partner, do it together because we, i do get these won these reply slips back, and you can often tell who's filled it in. especially if under clothing it's got fifty quid, you can assume it's the chap er who's probably thinking well i do need some new boots for the garden, but er but er if you put it in together you come up with a more realistic erm assessment. these things alter amazingly you know, i mean it's incredible that the, the sort of and yet that they both work. if you get somebody putting six hundred pounds for holidays, i'll be thinking mhm you know, they're not going to be able to do a lot on six hundred pounds a year, but when i actually get to talk to them i find they've got a caravan, and a friend who's got a site in north er er in north yorkshire. and actually that's quite a good budget to do sort of er four or five weeks er you know caravanning a year. and yet somebody else might have three or four thousand down, and that's because they're jetting off to er foreign climes a few times a year. so it's all down to individuals, and that's why it's important for you to do your own budgeting exercise. and of course if you're finding that there's a shortfall there, then you've got to try and look at your you know assets, your lump sum etcetera, as a way of, of erm er trying to cover that shortfall. erm, right. so, on the tax area, first of all you've got to consider whether you're a non-taxpayer, a basic rate taxpayer, or a high rate taxpayer. well as you know er to be a basic rate taxpayer, you're paying twenty five pence in the pound, apart from the er the new rate you know the first two thousand five hundred you get at twenty percent, which came in at the last budget. higher, higher rate, rate, well you don't start to pay that until you've exceeded the twenty three thousand seven hundred plus your personal allowance, so y you your basic rate of tax goes to twenty three seven hundred then you can add, add on your basic allowance, and for most people if they're earning er a single person twenty seven and a half and married person twenty eight and a half above that you're paying higher rate tax. and er of course in retirement, it's unlikely that anybody will be paying higher rate tax, unless you've been very lucky on your pension provision. er but erm the fact is i if you're a non-taxpayer, obviously we've got to take a different view of the way you that you might invest money. that's not unusual, because i quite often find that one partner's not working and therefore they're not using up their tax allowance so at retirement or before, i can move money into their name, and there are good reasons for doing that. erm you notice here that the amount is, didn't alter in the last budget. erm so erm what i'll do is just indicate the amounts as they stand. now, obviously this is three four four five, and that's allo that's available to each person, so if it's a married couple, they'll each get that amount, then there's a married couple's allowance, which is worth seventeen twenty, and that can be moved either to the male or the female or split er under the regulations as they stand. obviously normally the high rate, the higher wage earner would have that er erm er allowance. so that would make erm er five one six five as a married man's or a married couple's allowance as it's now called, plus the three four four five. so actually it's quite generous in terms of what you can earn before you actually pay tax. don't forget you don't pay any tax till you get above that level. you'll notice at sixty five that the allowances go up, and the er by getting to sixty five you're rewarded by a larger personal allowance and a larger married couple's allowance, but that starts to be abated at fourteen thousand two hundred. er, which used to be a problem up until about three or four years ago when independent taxation came in in nineteen ninety. now, independent taxation means that th that you've both got an allowance of fourteen thousand two hundred before age allowance is abated, but for teachers who're you know retired early, er some years ago, and they perhaps got a pension for themselves, a pension for their wife, then obviously when they got to sixty five, quite ou because it was calculated as a, as er one total, it actually abated their allowance quickly. now, by some manoeuvring on this, you can often get the income to sort of fit both sides if you like, you know by putting income to each side, you can avoid losing your age allowance. now once you get to fourteen thousand two hundred, your age allowance is abated, one pound for every two over the limit, and you're abated back to this level of allowance. er, but it's worth er you know manoeuvring a little bit on that if you can. erm if i could just stop there for a couple of minutes to er make a point about er independent taxation. erm if we've got erm er a couple say age sixty, and they've got their personal allowances er as, as usual, er let's assume that the male's retired and he's getting an income of five thousand two hundred, let's just suppose. so we know that his er his five one six five allowance is fully used, in other words his, his tax allowance is fully used. er in fact erm it could be perhaps plus some investment income as well, let's say that his wife though, er she, he's go he's got the erm five one six five allowance, so he's going to pay tax on whatever else he earns in other words. if say the female has got an income of only er two thousand a year, she's got er an unused allowance of fourteen forty five, in other words, erm that er three four four five allowance isn't being used now, i mean if we put ten thousand into his name, erm we would er suffer tax at erm say twenty five percent on most of it. er so er let's say that the ten percent rate applies, er mind you ten percent is a long way from where we are now, but it makes the figures easy to look at, so er let's say that he's getting ten percent gross on his return on a building society, he'd actually get seven and a half percent net, er so on his ten thousand he's going to earn seven fifty. okay? so that's his ten thousand investment income, well that's fine, you know, no problem, and there is a marginal rate here which you could in fact reclaim a bit of tax on twenty percent. but what happens if he gives it to his wife? well er firstly, he can, even if it's his money give it to his wife as his partner, and she could then invest the money, and because she's not paying any tax, er she could get a ten percent return, so she could actually get a thousand pounds on that ten thousand and that would be payable gross. so immediately they've made two hundred and fifty pounds a year er bonus by having the wife's er name on the account. now, the way that er gross accounts work is erm er fairly straightforward. you've got a form r eighty five which is available for bank and building society investors, and if you've got er a gross account then er you, you have to agree with the revenue that you are not going to be a taxpayer in the year that you take out the er r eighty five. it's no good if you think you might drop into tax later, avoid doing it because the revenue are checking one in twenty cases, and if you've got a partner who's likely to pay, not to pay tax, that's fine, if they are likely to roll over into tax, then don't use an r eighty five. the simple way there as you've probably been told by your tax officer here is just to reclaim it at the end of the tax year. you know if you've got any un a balance that you can reclaim, then do it then. er there are other ways of getting gross income, obviously. and er one of the ways you can use is er national savings income bonds, er which are er okay, but they're, the trouble is they're at a variable rate, so at the moment they're paying seven percent, so that's on national savings income bonds, so that that person would get seven hundred a year at the moment gross, and of course er you don't need to t to fill in an r eighty five for that type of investment because it's not a bank or building society account. erm the problem is that people who were in this account two years ago were earning thirteen and a half percent, well say eighteen months ago. and of course with the reduction in the erm er interest rates, then those have come down quite steeply. so it's a bit frightening when you think a pensioner's money may have been in that account at thirteen fifty on a, on ten thousand invested, and now they're down to seven hundred. if that was paying some important bills they'd be struggling. and er i can remember several cases years ag you know so going back two or three years where people were debating with me why didn't i put more into national savings? cos i was using that issue at that time, but we always make the proviso that if things change, you may have to alter your mind about where your money's placed. because obviously it's linked to u k interest rates, and therefore you suffer whatever goes on there. it's not all negative, of course, i mean the fact is we've got low underlying inflation at the moment, and that means that i a seven percent return and if the inflation rate's less than three, you're actually, it's, it's really reasonably profitable. but of course profit's one thing, and income's another thing, and i think the problem with most er forms of income type investment is that we spend it, it's not a problem it's just, it just happens. but when you spend it when you're spending your income you're not accumulating your capital, so this person in five years time, although they've had their income which may vary between seven and thirteen percent, their ten thousand is still ten thousand pounds, and obviously that would have devalued in real terms against inflation, which is the other problem. so the point i'm trying to make is that you can't rely on one product to do the whole job. th f for a tax plan, that's what i'm on at the moment, and, and, and that's a useful er device. erm so think about if you've got a non-working partner or somebody on a low income to spread the money er so that you, has anybody already done this er you know prior to retirement? yes, er perhaps one or two. yes. i mean i er i it's more well known than it used to be. but where it isn't well known is the people who ought to know, and that's the pensioners, you know th perhaps er your er parents, people er older than yourselves who are drawing state pension, and er the advertising seems to have gone astray. cos there's millions and millions of pounds that the revenue have got rushing about which should have been repaid to er investors. er and of course it's people like erm my mother and father who never look at er things like that unless i actually point it out, they won't actually know that they're allowed to reclaim tax. you know, particularly, you know the female may have only a state pension you know the part state pension nothing else coming in, and a lot of these accounts are still net, not gross, so the revenue have got money to give away, and they're quite happy to do that providi providing that people tap them on the shoulder. so if you've got any elderly er relatives or people who want, or who you think may, the trouble is with relatives, they always think you're interfering, this is a snag. you ask about money and wonder why. erm but erm that's a, a very important point and er just remember that you have actually given the money to the other partner, technically in terms of tax anyway, and er that er can, can have an affect on things. because i gave my wife some money obviously because i pay tax, she doesn't she's at home with the children, she didn't seem to object funnily enough, you know i said i'll move this money over to you. and then you know you can invest this and we'll have a building society account we'll have a gross account. yeah fine, fine. so anyway er i mean being a keen motorcyclist i borrowed a moto guzzi last year, you know a big v twin, beautiful bike, i went up into derbyshire and had a you know ride on it, and thought well that's not bad, see i've always had british bikes, and i think i might g i might get one of those, so i came back in the house put the helmet down and said hey that guzzi's not bad, i could get a decent one for about two thousand you know about nineteen eighty, you know nice le mans two. and she said oh yeah, where are you getting the money from? i said well, you know, out of the, out of the bradford and bingley. she says that's my account. i said but yeah i know, i gave you the money for tax purposes. she says well, she says, that garage is in a hell of a mess you know, and that norton standing there doing nothing. so erm have a problem trying to get it back. that's right, yeah so i eventually managed it, but it took some negotiating. do you have to give the capital sum to create this income, or is there ways of income from a set sum of money to the other person? no. no, er not really. the revenue want it paid into an account in your name or a joint account. they yes, but can that just be the income, or has it to be the whole capital? er, no the whole, the whole capital should be held by you, and paid to you or your or i in, in a case of a joint er couple because er once it's paid out, it would become the tax it would become the t the taxable interest of whoever received it. so really erm er you'd have to be a bit careful if you were doing that, and er i think the revenue would be pretty iffy about you holding money and paying it to a third party. were you thinking about a child who could own er no, i just i just question. you know i the splitting of income mhm. between spouse, two spouses erm it doesn't matter to transfer the lump sum so that that income goes to the one with the . no no, not really, not, not between not between a married couple no. no. but i mean obviously er the er or can you just put the income across? yes. so you know four thousand . you can. you can, but i'd still advise it goes to a joint account rather than to er another person's account. because i think the er the you know the revenue would think it was a bit odd that somebody else owned the money, and you paid the income to another party. right, that's what i'm asking. how do, what's the method with it. do you have a joint account for the, for the yes. lump sum, interest accum accumulated goes to the joint account right. and is then split between the two? yes well er if it's a joint account and the income's i i if it's a joint account and the income's generated from that account, then er it will be er treated as one going to the taxpayer, er you know, half of it going to the taxpayer, half of it going to the non-taxpayer. if it's the non-taxpayer owns the account in that case, then she can pay the whole of that thousand pounds into a joint account for them both, and they can both use the income, the revenue aren't going to b bother about where the money's gone, providing that it's received by the person who owns the investment. i think that that's the key to it. mhm. that so somewhere in i in between you've got to be receiving the income that you generate. otherwise passing it on to a third party, but you're not in the case of a married couple. obviously the point is that y y it's still within the, the er bounds of the er couple itself. if that's . but if you set it up jointly, you can't direct all the gross income if that's what you're thinking you can't say well i'll have all that income gross cos my wife's got an unused allowance, you've got to split it down the middle in the case of a joint account. so generally to make it, to make it straightforward, i tend to er differentiate, so that i've got some in the ta the non-taxpayer's name up to the limit, and then a joint account perhaps which will be usable by both of them er for instant access, that type of thing. er i'll, i'll perhaps go back to that later, cos it does come into the way that money splits. when you say joint account, do you mean building society? yes. er, a building society or bank account, yes. joint account. well er, a building society, i don't know whether people realize, but there are limits to the amount of protection you get on large sums of money. yes. yes. i will actually l er go into that. i'll, i'll cover it now. thank you for mentioning it. say, if you've got thirty thousand in, you'll only get protection on twenty. it's the first twenty. yes, under the building society protection act, if the society fails, you're protected up to twenty thousand, and you'll get eighteen thousand back, there's a ninety percent protection, provided they're members of the building society association, which all are, er virtually, even down to things like the clay cross and the staffordshire railway, they're all members of the building society association, so they're all covered. er but if you have a joint account, you're actually covered erm to forty thousand, because i it would be seen as two separate accounts, so that each hold twenty. er, so that's okay to an extent, but obviously we've got an approved list of building societies and banks, which we never used to have, but we've realized that er since b c c i p particularly and the housing market as bad as it is, there are some building societies and banks who may be in difficulties, and if they go down erm then they may not be taken over. because y don't forget that in the past, building societies have always been taken over by you know, sort of friendly merger. but the halifax said last year that they wouldn't take on any wounded soldiers, so that if er a society went to the wall and its debts were bad, then nobody may step in to s to actually erm erm solve the problem if you like. er so don't, don't do, quite correct to say beware of putting too much er of your money in one area, and er even with building societies it's risky. but er if you stick to the sort of er top ten, you know the sort of alliance and leicester, the leeds permanent, the halifax, the erm the sort of nationwides, then you're unlikely to get into difficulties. i think where people are more at risk is where they've gone for tessas in th er you know that's the tax-exempt savings plan, and they've chased the rate through the papers you know the erm and they see that the s the wolverhampton building society or the tipton and cheltenham and gloucester, is offering higher rates. yes, but c and g are actually very good er very sound er on their er ratios, they're pretty good, but erm some of them aren't so good, and you know, be careful when you're coming to invest in building societies i'd stick to the major players at the moment, even though you may get a premium by going to a smaller society. because the smaller societies often f charge more for their loans and give more erm to the erm to the investor. but of course erm you know the erm the smaller the society, the more risk there is in terms of solvency. generally speaking. so erm it is worth mentioning. erm and banks incidentally, your protection is seventy five percent of the first twenty thousand, er which is where that b c c i figure came from, do you remember all that thing about fifteen thousand is your return? well, you'd have got fifteen thousand whether you'd got twenty thousand in there or two hundred thousand. that was the basically the problem and people weren't aware of that at the time. er, so again it's a matter of security, and so if you've got lots of money in one area, better to move it about. building societies are a bit naughty in that they're regularly advertising rates at over fifty thousand pounds, the loughborough do it for one, in er my local paper. and i pick it up and it says loughborough building society and you can see about half a percent er premium rate on fifty thousand pounds, and you think that might be worth going for, for, for somebody who's got a lot of capital, but is it really, because if you've got fifty thousand in there, you are at risk. and i can just remember what john major said about the local authorities who'd er got into b c c i. he said the extra half percent was actually er a risk return, of course you know it wasn't explained perhaps as well. you know, local authorities aren't expert in looking at company law, and the way that finances work. so i think people got caught out quite badly at that, at that point. erm, i think we all got to trust building societies and banks, and we still can, providing you know the limits and er and er the constraints upon er upon those financial institutions. i mean i can't see the government allowing a building society to actually get into erm er a case of insolvency, i think it, the, the, i think the building society association would force a merger, but it may be on very poor terms or er you know, whatever. but hopefully er we're past the bottom of that loop. j just one last thing. th i, i thought i had it clear, and now i'm slightly confused as a result of an answer that you gave, and i'm not quite clear again. if i invest part of my lump sum in my wife's name yes. er so we can take, take up her full allowance yes. sh she will yes. be able in fact to take all that. and suppose okay well let's imagine just for a minute that she gets three four four five as, as interest yes. take . now, the, the interest, that three four four five mhm. the account into which it's paid, does that account into which the three four four five interest is paid, does that have to be in my wife's name, or does it have to be a joint no, it can be in joint names. but, but sh that is still allowed then is it? if it's i i mean yes. i thought you see it would have to be in her name, because she has no, not necessarily. to be in receipt of that income as far as yes, but then when that income's paid in, half of the income's taxable when it's assessed for you, and half would be paid gross to your wife, you know it's a diff it's a different, it's a different er yes, this is where i'm confused,if you want to take up can i just a minute, because i've got the same feeling. and i think what bob is saying, there is only one account, but you'll have to endow two accounts, one that is giving rise to interest in the wife's name, yes. which is taxable yes. on her if she's liable yes. but the interest is then paid into another account which is in joint names. yeah. yeah,tha that's if you want to use the income of course. it doesn't have to be. right. it can be reinve it can be reinvested in the same . yeah, i understand that bit. yes. it was the question of making sure that we didn't pay tax on any of that three four four five. well, i thought that if it went into a joint account, i had to pay tax on half of three four four five. you would, you would, you would. but, but if we've used up her allowances er i you know it i if you want to keep it separate, if it's simpler separate that's okay right. if you're near the limit, then it's probably worth it, right. you know to keep it separate. right. i mean, some people want it for income, so if they want that sort of fifteen hundred pounds coming in, and they both want access to it, i'm quite happy to pay it into a joint account, providing it doesn't actually give them a tax problem, in right. other words, if half the interest is er is erm deemed to be the male's and therefore taxable, if it's a working account, it's never likely to get much interest on it anyway, no. cos the money will come in and go out. yeah. is, is that better? yeah. yeah. yeah. tha that's after it's met the tax liability or not? that's right. when it goes into the joint account. yes. yes. it originally arose through the wife's account, and was covered by her allowances, and then the interest was then paid into a joint account yeah. and then only half of that was the wife's yeah. by that time she'd absorbed all her allowances, therefore it didn't matter whether she'd that's right. that's right. i mean you've got to be careful at the end of the tax year that you're actually okay on that ground, er but, and you can make a declaration to the revenue if you're over the limit, it's just that i mentioned that because some people like a joint account for it to be received into so that they can both spend it basically. cos i mean i'm, i quite often use that as spendable income, because if i allow it to accumulate in a gross account, in a year or two it's actually gone beyond the right. the personal allowance. yeah, right. and that can make you a problem. you've just got to keep an eye on that. er right so er capital gains tax. now, this is a tax which hopefully won't affect that many of you here, but it is, it is agai a tax nevertheless. and er its er main exemptions are er on er owner occupied homes, private cars, life assurance policies,, gilts etcetera. but erm most of the things that you will be de now the thing is about properties, that if you've got a second property for example, or erm you know that's not your primary residence, you would be liable to capital gain on a disposal, so if you'd bought the house for ten thousand and you sold it five years later for twenty, then the gain er on that would be the twenty er the ten thousand that you'd gained, less any indexation from nineteen eighty two, and they would then er er look at that as an allowance to use against it. so your first five thousand eight hundred would be used against it, and then any e excess over that would be added to your tax bill in that year, in other words it would be assessed as income in that year. don't forget that you've got an allowance each, and it's not likely to affect many people, except where you've perhaps been left something that you want to dispose of or a property that you want to dispose of, in which case there could be a capital gains liability. but don't remem don't forget that you've each got an allowance of five thousand eight hundred, so something jointly owned, you've actually got a double allowance, and you get that allowance year, so if you've got say an er a liability for shares of ten thousand pounds, let's say, that's your capital gains calculated liability, you can do five thousand in the first year, and five thousand in the second year, and that will keep you below your capital gains tax allowance. yes? erm, you mentioned property? erm your parents'. yes. is it therefore better for er a, a parent our parents , our parents to give as a gift the house to both people in order to claim both allowances? yes. and there is a little wrinkle there as well, and th if, if they, if your parents are allowed to live there rent free, even though you own the house, you won't be liable to capital gains on disposal, er if they, if they actually pass the ownership of the house to you while they're alive, and then you continue to let them live rent free, as i understand it, you w there would be no capital gains liability on disposal. is, does that seven years? no, no. that's inheritance tax, that's a different er a different er matter really. er this is capital gains which is a different type of tax. so it's just one of those things that you should know. i mean, capital gains is liable to er a yearly review, you know, you've an allowance for each year, and the capital gain is on the property on the value of the property from the time it was purchased to the time it was disposed. er, whereas erm inheritance tax is an allowance which is given once and i'll explain what that is. but as far as that's concerned, er i mean the, the house can be passed over to you, and would then become, er you would own the house but er unless you dispose of it, there'd be no liability to a gain, and er of course, at that time er if your parents in it rent free at the time of their er leaving the house, then you could then dispose of that without erm erm er liability. would that assume your parents are actually living when they gift it to you? yes. and it becomes inheritance tax then if they die and leave it to you in their will? right. right. yes. er th but don't forget that, that if they make the transfer, if they give the house to you, is that what you mean, yes? there would be a seven year rule on that. yes. yes, sorry, yes, that would be a potentially exempt transfer. yes. erm so that's true, that if they give you the house, it is, it is an inheritance tax problem as well. er so looking at inheritance tax, er the house the estate the car, capital etcetera all count towards it. having a will will help. and with the current allowance of one hundred and fifty thousand pounds er is reasonably good, in that if you have a property worth say seventy or eighty thousand and then you've got assets of worth perhaps forty to fifty thousand, you'll still be under the limit. now, it's not your problem. inheritance tax is not your problem, it's your children's problem. so er i mean you can actually say to your children, well okay you know if i, we die tomorrow in a road accident, there'd be a liability to tax, erm and say the estate's worth two hundred thousand, then fifty thousand would be liable to tax at forty pence in the pound, so there'd be twenty thousand pound debt to pay to the revenue. now that twenty thousand pounds can be paid er it has to be paid before probate is granted. so there'd be delay in probate unless the children have got the money, so they have to borrow against the property or they have to raise money to pay the bill. so erm you can actually get round that by erm either reducing the estate, which is the simplest way of doing it, so one thing you can do is spend your money, which isn't a problem is it? if you hundred and fifty thousand. and er fo for that reason, er you know, lady got through three fortunes, and i think she di died with a few hundred pounds in the building society, and if you get the timing right, that's the way to do it. because er i mean a lot of children these days, i think about my parents, it's their money, they spend it, and i don't really see that it's important for it to be passed on to us, but in the case of a large estate, it becomes more important, if you're looking at sort of two hundred three hundred thousand estate, then there's going to be a lot of erm er asset value which would be taxable. er now you can make er you can make disposals in your lifetime obviously, you can make small gifts, you can make disposals up to three thousand pounds a year, which is your annual, your exemption if you like, and then anything over that is liable to the seven year rule, if you die within seven years of making the transfer, then there is a, there is a erm declining debt, er tax-wise. but erm don't forget that all these things are erm a little bit dodgy at your ages, i don't think you should be making big transfers at this stage, simply because you may need the money. if we go back to that first, second slide, if you're still alive in thirty years time, you may actually want the money that you've gifted to people ten years ago, and erm that's the problem you've got. so i don't think i should be saying, if i was working as an advisor on your behalf, i don't think you should be making big transfers at this stage, because it's always dodgy. i mean you may need to recall that capital later. if you needed a non-urgent operation say a hip replacement or something, and you didn't want to go into your own savings er you know then you've obviously given away part of your assets. there are other ways round it, as you can imagine. and there's a lo there's a whole industry built up about inheritance tax planning where you actually write something in trust for your dependents, and er that's simple in that if you're in good health now, you can write say a twenty thousand pounds inheritance tax cover, under trust for your children so that's paid outside the estate, it doesn't make the matters worse, and mo most conveniently at retirement it's simple to do because you might pay it on an annual premium or a regular monthly premium, and it might cost you twenty or thirty pounds a month, but at least you can forget it then. you've made some provision for your children it's written in absolute trust for their benefit. on your death, the money is paid directly to the children, they can then pay the inhe inheritance tax bill, and everything's hunky-dory. er but of course you've got to fund that yourself, or at least that's what most people think. er but in our london office, apparently they do a lot of inheritance tax planning because of the size of estates, and they actually invite the children in, and say to the children look, you know, if erm you die, the estate will be devalued by forty thousand because of tax, er if you want to make provision the, the er the contract is still written on the erm, the erm individuals' lives, but it can then be erm paid by the children, so your children can then pay the premiums. the only technical difficulty is that it's difficult in a family where there's two children perhaps one's well off and can pay, and the other can't, so you you've got technical problems there. but there that, that's one of the routes they can use. another one that you might consider is joint tenancy in common. has anybody looked at that? er joint tenancy in common, this is where somebody did mention it john. oh did he? oh right. but don't forget there are, there are er technical erm difficulties with that as well in some circumstances, and joint tenancy in common er you've got to look carefully at before you make any decisions. that's giving away half the estate er half the house value on the first er death. so you just be a bit careful on that one. erm right, so passing on then, er are you a cautious or adventurous investor? what is your tax rate? erm, do you want income or capital growth or both? well for most people erm i mean they say to me, i don't want to be the richest man at millford hill, in other words i don't want to save in retirement indefinitely, but you are intending some capital growth as well, cos if you don't have capital growth, you don't protect your investment. are you cautious or adventurous? i can usually tell by when i when i'm doing a fact-find reply obviously you find out whether their erm position is, is erm simply building society or national savings investment, or whether they've gone into shares or unit trusts or investment trusts, and you can see at what level they're operating and of course if they've still got their money under the bed, then i refer them to ken dodd in knotty ash who's got a specialist company on that behalf. so erm so cautious or adventurous, i think most people don't, i mean i've got adventurous on my form but it never gets ticked, because nobody's adventurous when they retire. i mean the time for you being adventurous was earlier, and i mean when you retire you've got to think about capital er protection as well. er it's okay to say, yes three or four thousand i'll play about with and i think japan'll be good for the next five years, that's a different matter, but if you're dependent on something for income and security, then you can't really take a risk profile on, on, on your money. course erm i guess we deal a lot with british telecom, and er and erm er plessey and people like that, er well, g e c now. they erm they tend to perhaps have a different attitude if they've been given company shares, because they're handled shares er fairly regularly, and that's a different matter, erm i mean erm are there many people here who have privatized issues? ha has anybody got as far as british telecom shares, or british gas, or electricity? yeah, so i should think quite a few. i mean i've filled in a few forms for them but i mean probably you're a passive owner like me in the sense that i don't go and actively trade them, er i keep them in a long term investment, and that's it. so er shares are relatively high risk, ad obviously your tax rate's important as well. so that's the first consideration when i'm looking at somebody's investments, how do they view their own investment strategy? erm consideration two. your home, staying or moving,any debts other than a mortgage, should you pay off your mortgage. anybody got that question, anybody like to consider that one? yes? well you see mortgages are a, a, a pretty dodgy subject really because you've got so many er different er er variables on a mortgage, but the m but the basic erm pattern of mortgages is that if we've got a ten thousand pound loan over ten over say twenty years,so that's twenty years there. and this is what's called a repayment er type profile. what you actually do is you pay off the loan gradually over that peri period of twenty years, so you get from that point to that point and it's, it's sort of level to start with, you're paying mainly interest off and not much capital, so when you get a statement from the building society, you still seem to owe virtually the same that you started with. and then in the last sort of seven to eight years, it starts to decline quite rapidly because you're actually paying off the capital at that stage, and th that's where i may meet somebody at say fifteen years, they thought their mortgage would run to age sixty five and they actually retire at sixty, they've got five years left and they're about there. and the question normally is well, do i pay it off or not? well, erm a lot of your tax relief under the miras system, which you're aware it gives you tax relief at source up to thirty thousand, has been absorbed up here, that's where most of your tax relief is, so down here the tax relief on the capital element is nil, and of, it's only, if it's only about three thousand outstanding, i might say, well, get rid of that, you know, just, just erm er cash it, and then you've got the l you c can forget your mortgage commitment altogether. you won't make a lot of difference. cos i do find people with repayment mortgages actually erm er a lot of them pay over the odds, so they might be paying seventy or eighty pounds a month anyway to clear the mortgage, so mentally they've already made their decision to actually accelerate the payments on it. erm so that's one thing to bear in mind. erm on the other hand if you've got ten thousand on a, an endowment basis, this is a different matter. now an endowment is obviously based on a principle of interest only on l loan, so over the same term, of twenty years, you've only ever paid interest off the loan and you still owe th a after twenty years, you'd still owe the building society ten thousand pounds. er most people, well quite a few people will have an endowment mortgage, is that right? yes. now what happens here is that erm normally, you'll have a, a er an endowment attached which erm has got a sum assured and that sum assured may be about six thousand say, and onto that are added bonuses. and those bonuses each year can't be taken away once they're added. and er again, when we get to year fifteen, i get one or two clients who say to me well actually the norwich have just sent me a bonus record through and i've actually got nine thousand in the pot already, i think i'll pay the mortgage off. er now of course erm that would be a pretty dodgy thing to do because of er the way the norwich work their bonuses. and er most of you will be aware that, where does most of your money come from on an endowment? terminal. terminal. right. and norwich would be delighted if you cashed early, because that means that their pool, their, their main fund is not at is not going to have to pay you any terminal bonus. so they'll only as attached and your sum assured, and thank you very much. because your bonus is really a, used to be around about five percent but if you look at them now, they've restructured them, which means they've reduced them. always read restructured as reduced, erm so that you you've got erm three, three and a half percent say per annum, er plus erm a superbonus which is perhaps five percent of additional bonuses, so it looks better but it isn't really. but i mean basically that sort of contract you want to complete. even if you decide at the end of the day that you're not bothered about the miras tax relief, you want to see the back of this loan, keep your endowment running, because that's where the real meat of the contract is. and erm although there's been sort of all sorts of stuff in the press, have you seen all this stuff in the press about endowments? it's ridiculous. i mean over the last two years it's been shock horror headlines, you know, will endowments fail to repay the loan,are endowments good value and i ke some of the journalists i've read bef over the last two years have actually completely reversed what they said t two years ago when p e ps were declining because of poor share markets and bonuses were coming through quite nicely on the endowments, they said oh endowments are the thing to do. that's what you want, a decent endowment, it takes out all the fluctuations, and er the they've big reserves, and of course the minute the endowment starts to look a bit poorer, it's switch back to p e ps, course i've always said that p e ps were a good idea, and the charges are much better now than they were, and i'm just thinking of the poor chap that's read the paper two years ago, over his tea and toast on a sunday and thought mhm good idea, i'll take an endowment, and two years later it's the same person saying aha, no, pretty bad news an endowment. i mean as usual with financial journalism, er i it's somewhere in between, i mean endowments are having a bad run at the moment and that's because they've paid out such excellent bonuses in the past so if you've had a maturity in the last four or five years, you'll have seen how good they are. but they can't matter. in other words, er they weren't trying to sort of scrape it together to actually repay your, repay your twelve thousand pound wh loan at the end of twenty years. they would actually give you a fairly good sum assured. now what's happened the problem would be for your children, who are faced with erm building societies and banks who are red hot to sell endowments because of the better commission value to the company, and the, the endowments to make them competitive have actually been structured so that it's the minimum premium, the minimum possible premium. and that means the minimum possible return. so even at ten and a half percent rejection, if you look at the latest figures, it costs you thirty pounds a month for an eagle star low-cost super super-duper endowment, but at the end you're only going to replace your money, if you've got erm the ten and a half growth rate, ten and a half percent, which is unlikely i in current circumstances. so if you've got children looking at mortgages, just tell them to be careful and that i think really my advice would be to, for anyone starting off a new mortgage now, to definitely go for repayment, until they've sorted out what they're doing, because if you cash an endowment within two years, if you can't keep up the payments, if you lose your job, then y you get nothing back. so you could have paid a company five hundred, six hundred pounds, and have no surrender value whatsoever, in the first two years, cos they'll take their charges out on a twenty year, a twenty five year contract. so to my mind, er the, the people dare dance should have been yourselves er i mean some years ago where your jobs are very secure, you knew that you were likely to see the end of the term in e e employed. that's a different proposition. but er i, unfortunately they are sold as er a sort of er a sort of a major positive factor in house buying. and i mean i know the screens are flickering in the halifax and the bradford and bingley e even as we speak, and they do this fabulous analysis, you know you can see that to, to go for the repayment is not as efficient as the endowment, but it's all a theoretical exercise. and i think for youngsters it's much better to have a repayment and then maybe change it later on to, to a savings type mortgage. erm but er that's a bit of an aside,th i think i think it's important because i think the old, the old style endowments were much stronger. the other thing is, you're probably getting l a p r, that's life assurance premium relief, on any contracts that were taken out prior to nineteen eighty four. and l a p r is half of the current tax rate, so you'll be earning twelve and a half percent on your, has anyo any pre-eighty four contracts? right. don't forget that if you alter your pre-eighty four, you lose your tax advantage. march i think it was. sorry? march eighty four. march eighty four, that's right, yeah. er and er anyone who's got that sort of contract, take my advice to keep it. so even if you do repay your loan on a building society account, er don't forget that erm er the erm building society will then want to charge you for keeping the deeds of your house. cos if you take them back, you've got to keep them somewhere and building societies and banks are charging much more than they used to for actually keeping safe deposit. so just work out with your building society whether they'll do it cheaply. or if you've got a solicitor who is handling your legal affairs, then perhaps they do it er for nothing or cheaply. i mean y i think the charges that banks are making in order to make up some of their losses, they're going to be passed on to the average investor, you know the average client, so erm you know the halifax will do it free, i've heard recently that they are actually charging for er holding your deeds. and some of them actually cha make sure that you have to keep your house and contents insured through the society, which again can be more expensive. so er just beware of what you're doing when you, when you, course you can actually keep a mortgage a a account open, in other words you can keep it open on a pound a year whatever it is with the halifax. and they will actually keep your deeds, erm work out if it is cheap enough to do it that way. if we leave that, supposing you topped up your mortgage, which, with an endowment mortgage ah. but a top up mortgage of course isn't because you can't no. you can't get the, the tax benefit that you got originally with an endowment. right. mr .! keep their repayments low. now there is one window, and i'm glad you mentioned that because you just reminded me that, that, that you can get fi good fixed-rate loans at the moment. y very good fixed-rate loans. erm if they, if you've got a heavy mortgage, and i'm not suggesting that many of you will have a heavy mortgage, it's not a bad thing when you're retiring to fix a rate, because we've not been able to do that for a long time. and at the moment the building societies and banks are chasing business, they're really desperate, and er they'll, they'll give you a very good fixed rate. now i've got some tables in the car, and if you'd like me to fetch them during break, i'll, i'll leave them on the table for you. because i just fixed my mortgage for four years with the halifax, and it's a total gamble fixing mortgages, by the way, if we, you know, because i don't know where interest rates are going to go, but i, i fixed at seven point seven five percent for four years. you can get a seven year fix with barclays, at about eight point five percent. that's over seven years. if you go for a ten year fix, bank of scotland are doing it at about eight point nine nine. that's ten years. now you can see what's happening. shorter term fix at very low rates, medium term fix medium rates, and so on. now, what you've got to do is to think well if you've got a mortgage over er i wouldn't think you'd consider this if your mortgage was under twenty thousand, it's not such a big liability, but if you're getting beyond that, you've got to think well is it worth me spending money to actually erm er get the mortgage fixed? erm it i think it is, because i think we're in a, we're in a dip, if i can just go off the the, the idea of conventional investments at the moment. but this is the interest rate dip we're in here, i mean we've seen, we've seen i reckon we're somewhere around here, we could be either side of that, but i think what we're going to find next year is that the chancellor, because he's had to keep interest rates low and he's stimulating the economy, er you're going to find that eventually he's going to have to push interest rates up to control inflation. because everybody de everybody's denying inflation is there. and it is at the moment because nobody's buying any goods. but the minute we all start buying goods again, it's ith an endowment. i think that the compan companies out there have not made any profits for about five years, and they're desperate to return to er an even keel, and they are going to force up the price of goods and services as soon humanly possible, and we'll pick up the bill. and inter interest rates will have to come up to control er the rate of inflation, if the government pursues its normal course. so i think there is a case for going for a fixed-rate. how much does it cost? well, if you're going with your own society,th it's about two fifty to three hundred. i mean the halifax charged me three hundred pounds for this and i've already got a mortgage with them, so they don't need to do any sort of er er in depth surveys, or, or, or assessments on the house. so i rang the halifax and er i said i'd like this fixed rate please. i said erm if you're already a halifax customer, what's the charge? cos i thought well, he'll probably say, you know, half to you. you know, with being a halifax customer. she said three hundred pounds. so i said oh, er, is there, there's no discount for being a halifax customer? no, no, no. i said but you've not got to do any work for this. she said well that's the rules, you know that's how we're doing this, we're offering a fixed-rate for three hundred pounds. so i said okay, okay, yeah, send me the forms. she said do well you don't need any forms, cos it's only you, we're only going to alter it on the computer only going to alter it on the computer anyway. so she says if you just write me a letter and get your wife to sign it, we'll do the rest, put your three hundred pounds in the in with your application. so i thought, this is money for old rope, you know. but er there you go you pay your money and you take your choice. er i mean y y the i if you are moving from one society to another, then obviously er you will be charged, and there will be the two hundred and fifty pound fixing fee, plus whatever else. so y i've got to weigh up whether i'm actually going to make a profit over four years or whether it's going to be, but i'm not doing it for that it's not so much making a profit as the fact that i can secure the loan for four years and know that i haven't got any extra to, to find, and when you've retired, if you've got say seven years on your mortgage and you're thinking well if mortgage rates go up erm i could get stuffed you know if they doubled again then you could actually fix on that assumption. but erm it is a risk because you don't know whether they're going to go up or down. and er we could all get it wrong, and we could be in the e r m,i if we go back into the e r m then er you know if they stabilize interest rates across europe er then we could be okay. but i mean a fixed rate is a bird in the hand, really, and i think they're quite good at the moment. so i'll bring that list in for you to have a look at, and you might spot your own society in there and give them a ring and see what they, they've got on offer. er okay so i think that er covers mortgages, but if you've got any house if you've got any house improvement loans which were taken out anything like credit card debts anything where you're paying er a high rate of interest, then i think you should get rid of those every time . you know cancel any of your big debts because it's going to help your budgeting if you know that you've got rid of a lot of er bits and pieces. erm and er you can then budget accordingly. er right, i'm just having a check to see whether, scott is it half past ten? yes. er ten forty five. ten forty five so we've gone a bit . ke the, the k kettle's boiling so at the most convenient time, john, if you'd care to right. okay. yeah, yeah. rather than the clock. okay, i will do. er i'll just talk erm just talk briefly about emergency access money, cos this wi this covers one point i in the next session. erm it's to erm reserve er for emergencies, obviously, i, i'd use a building society or bank, to cover holidays and domestic needs, to set up hobby or retirement applications, so we'd always say, leave a fair amount in the building society, and the only thing th advice i'd give you is one, stick to the major societies, and secondly, if you're looking for larger investments, use a postal account. anybody got one yet? right. okay. they're getting more popular. and er certainly i think they're good value. erm postal accounts have got er a definite er advantage over other er methods of er er building society holdings. purely because you've got no staff. i mean the cheltenham and gloucester, the britannia, erm the erm bristol and west, they've all got no staff, they just have a computer and er and erm they send you er everything through the post. but the rates are obviously slightly better than you will get elsewhere, about three quarter percent above an ordinary ninety day account and the main advantage normally instant access on these accounts. so where, if i'm putting twelve thousand in for sort of a, a holding fund for, for individuals i might put three thousand into a local society so they can pop down to the nottingham building society for any bits and pieces, and th the, the bulk of it can go into a postal account to, with a better rate. but er i would warn you about er er accounts which obviously tie your money for a lot longer than maybe six months or a year because you're always at the mercy of the er of the er building society then if their rates turn down or if you want access, you've got penalties, and i think if, there's no point in chasing interest rates through building societies generally, because if you take an average over five years, there isn't a lot of difference between one society and another. and you know what's happened i mean there's a lot of trickery involved where they get you into an account that if you read the small print it says ju rates guaranteed until june ninety three and as soon as june ninety three, and as soon as june ninety three comes around, your, your seven percent becomes five percent. so you've always got that thing to think about. so with building societies generally, it's got to be somewhere you like, somewhere that you, you've got instant access to, stick to the major players. i remember one teacher retiring several years ago in nottingham said to me er he says i'm sticking with the nationwide, me. he says . well why's that i said? well when i cycle into nottingham, they let me keep my bike in the branch while i go shopping. and that's rather than replacing the push bike . erm just before we break, erm it might be worthwhile just having a look at a few examples. and erm we won't have time to go through all of these afterwards, but if i hand a few round to you, what i'd like you to do is er just have a go and jot down some of the er solutions that you would provide. put yourself in the position of a financial adviser, for the couple that you see, these are all theoretical couples obviously, theoretical individuals, and just jot down on this the sort t. mr .! can you go widows, widowers or single people? yes, yeah. but er i think it doesn't really matter whether it's erm it's er you know relating to your own circumstances, it's more l it's more ab about just solving problems really. can i just ask about the postal accounts at this stage. er where do you find out about those? er postal accounts. well you can get them in the financial press, erm usually the telegraph on a, on a weekend or the money mail or the, any of the loca any good quality paper, or you can buy some of the financial guides that you get in er, in er newsagents these days. i mean i use things like money management, and they're quite useful, erm but er you don't need to erm er spend a lot of time looking round. there is a building society shop in nottingham, isn't there? yes. and i think they can do quite a bit on that. ? yeah, i will. i'll try and find you one. yeah, oh there's a good one. right. some of these are extreme examples, some not. and er once you've had a look at that, you can er perhaps break for coffee, and we'll have a chat about it after the break. right, erm so we'll er just start with a quick erm er look round what people have decided on for investment er in individual cases. so i i if you can er give me the background if i ask you to sort of give me a bit of background for the case, i'll write it up here, and i'll write down the solutions and see what, see what you've done. er okay er so has anybody done erm er let's start with erm er miss , has anybody done miss ? yes. yeah, yeah, we're half way down it. oh no, right, yes okay. er so if you can start us off. thank you, to the local authority, i'd yeah. i'd defer it. i'd defer it. i yeah. get to make some more. yeah, you can't really defer your pension you have to take it when you retire, don't you? i don't think you can defer it. can you? you, you can defer a state pension, but it's not really that, that viable. can't you do that? we thought you could. not with er not with a local authority pension, as far as i'm aware. i wouldn't recommend it anyway. put it back into your pension fund? er to grow, to take ? you can if it's a, if it's a private pension, yes you can do. but you can't . no no let's assume, let's assume that she has to take it. i don't think you can. i mean nobody's ever asked me that question before. sorry. can i defer my pension? anyway, if we can start with er with, with the position as it's there, you know if we can take that. er two, private income. shares. right. okay so she's getting, is it ten thousand from lloyds? five. yeah, five from private shares five from her pension. yeah. so she's got an income of ten. she's got her own house. no mortgage. no mortgage, right. lump sum plus redundancy money of twenty grand. yeah. building society deposits twenty grand. yeah. and value of eight grand. yeah, so she's total forty eight. so she's got forty eight thousand right so er what was the inter er er you would question the instruction. cos she was . she, she's got a modest lifestyle. that, that's, that's your ten thousand a year income, she can get by on that er this is interesting cos it's all shares. i, when i wrote it i thought well she's inherited this from her family and yeah. that that's ongoing income, so what would you suggest there then? i think a world cruise. world cruise, yes. i've had that before. send her round the world three times. keen and adventurous,. okay, so if you can give me some suggestions that might, might actually improve, cos we've got to be seriously thinking that she's fifty six, this is the other key to it. mhm. and she's got a long time to use this money, and okay this might be sufficient now, but will it be when she's seventy, seventy five, so we've got to make that money work so something to pay but tax. that's right. yes, i mean er something to er mitigate or er evade and evade is a bad word isn't it really? avoid. avoid. avoid. avoid tax, yes. yes. or tax, tax planning. anyway, erm the er what were your solutions then to that? you started it, so you know. well, the first one we got kicked on the head because take the pension. oh right. erm no, okay, can i pass that on to somebody else, yes? i've done the lot. keep your bank account in credit. yes. get a tessa. tessa. right. p e p? p e p? p e p. keep five thousand in a local instant access building society. , fingers crossed. put five thousand in a top ten postal account. yes. put the rest in unit trusts with a long established firm. yeah. unit trusts. right. okay. so, index-linked . er right,another suggestion of index-linked, would you recommend that as reasonable? . er well i'll put those down, so let's find some of these because obviously you won't have met them all, maybe. but erm certainly erm i, i think that was erm a, a very good response to this because erm obviously we've got er a g a fair selection here, you've got erm building society instant and top ten postal, that's the postal account there, erm tessa, p e p and unit trusts, and possibly index-linked certificates, and i'll go back to those but i mean certainly that was a good er a good spread, and i think er you know you should be er thinking, well you know this lady's going to have some safe growth in the in the future. erm and obviously she's used to shares she's not going to be worried about unit trusts or p e ps cos she's already had er a lot of share er a p e p share income here anyway. so she'll be quite happy w to spread it like that. erm the only thing that erm i thought she might er do was erm er something else on a ten year basis, because she's only fifty six, i mean that's relatively young, so would you possibly suggest anything that could go for ten or more years? an annuity. erm with profits annuity. with profits, yeah. or, or endowments i was thinking of, rather than a but she's no children, why she doesn't want to actually ? no no, but an endowment's purely savings if it's taken as a, as a maximum investment plan or a, or a, an i i a pure endowment. and he's erm when we were thinking about tax planning, i was thinking that if a, a, a qualifying endowment, if it's run for ten years, the one big advantage is that it always pays without deduction of tax. so it's always t tax-free cash, and any tax-free cash that we can accumulate would be very useful. because you've no idea in ten years time what your er er position will be with regard to income and tax. i mean, for a start we've got twenty five pence in the pound tax rate, where will we be in five years time? thirty percent? thirty two percent? so any tax-free cash that she's got might be useful. i mean i won't go into detail, but i mean she could do endowment, she could do it on a maximum investment plan basis, to back up her p e p, erm and save regularly through different funds. so i mean that was a good solution. er any others for miss , with any other alterations to that? any, any other suggestions? can i ask a question? yes. i didn't know this one. erm if you're buying an endowment policy is it possible to put er put it in as it were paid up, or do you have to find the premiums out of your income? erm you can, you can make a single premium contribution to it, ah. that's a useful point actually, i, i'll, i'll cover it now, cos er the lady over there mentioned an annuity, the two can be done together. it's called a back-to-back, and er the insurance company issue two, two contracts. they issue an er they issue an annuity, which is erm er if you're not sure what an annuity is, this is a temporary annuity, and they might say in the case of miss they might say well what about a ten year annuity? er in actual fact it's a ten year contract, you buy er a nine year annuity, and the first premium goes to the endowment when you put the money in so let's say we er put a thousand pounds in in the, the first year, and that fund's on an, on an annual premium. now the next nine premiums come from the annuity, and that feeds in here. now at the end of the ten years of course the erm the accumulation here erm is completed, we've, we've actually funded the policy right the way through, so it's now a qualifying policy, tax-free down here, and the annuity has been exhausted, so that's gone, so you've used one to fund the other. and at the end of the ten years of course that's all tax-free cash. the annuity is actually quite a attractive because there's not much tax er liability on an annuity anyway, only a very small proportion and for her in this situation she could actually make a single contribution of say eight thousand pound, the maturity from the endowment, and actually buy this sort of contract straight off. in which case she doesn't have to worry about funding from income, which is what your question was wasn't it? yeah. she doesn't have to fund it from income. and it would all be funded from within the contract. er they're very good in fact, i mean even the erm if you look at say the result from clerical medical over ten years, erm fifteen thousand invested, er currently er returning something like forty three thousand over er the five the ten year term, so that's not bad. you know, well over double your money, which is what a building society would have done, it would just about have doubled your money over ten. but of course the problems are with this contract that it wouldn't suit everybody, one because you've got no access for the ten years, you've bought the contract up front, and if you want access to it, it's very limited and of course if you cash an endowment early as we know it'd damage the, the er the income sorry the, the growth at the end of the plan. er but we can write these with some f flexibility, and erm there is a deferred income version, where you can run it so you were say you didn't need income five years, you can run it for five years, then la then leave it erm and just take the annuity income as er as, as er regular income. so you can actually move it about a bit, but it's not that flexible a contract. but in the case of a younger person, looking for er very secure growth, it's not a bad thing to do. so erm miss , i mean she's an easy case to do really, what cos she's got loads of, sorry? what sort of return would you get over ten years on, on a gold brick. bullion. jewellery, diamonds. er hard to say, because you're moving into er specialist areas like commodities. erm i mean we don't even look at the figures on those, because it's not the sort of investment that we would actually consider erm useful for a, for a longer term investor. i m she's a little bit different in that she could erm take erm a flyer into something like that yeah. but commodities are high risk by the nature of er the narrowness of the market. and i mean recently i came across somebody who'd got some part holdings in diamonds, and of course the diamond market's gone into rapid decline because of the er is it namibian diamonds, and, and the russians er breaking up the de beer market. and you can, you can have that thing looking very very difficult, very, in very short time. so i mean she'd have to be a very speculative investor, she'd have to be right up to er adventurous, for her to think about that. er but i mean as, as to returns, i mean you'd have to look at specialist press for that erm yes. i mean i've got some indications in er a couple of books i've got in the car, er but erm again i've not been asked that question you know, what's the bullion return, things like that, it's, it's a little bit out of the ordinary, but you can find the figures. yes? can you explain p e ps? don't know about them. right, okay, well i'll do it now, so we don't, so we're not mechanically going through this, cos i mean if you don't know what a p e p is, it's worth looking at now. so, a p e p is erm er introduced by er mr lawson, who you might remember some time ago had er a job as the chancellor and is now working part-time in the city. yeah. he, he does get p paid more than two, two pound fifty an hour as i understand. i mean i l the, the pundit system in this country is absolutely delightful, i mean you don't need do you, when i mean the economy's in, in, in reverse and things are going horribly wrong and they wheel on mr lawson to explain what he would have done, had he still been in control, and i'm thinking god,how do they, how on earth can they possibly go and say that you know? it's like, it's rather like asking henry kissinger to sort of er er give us some advice on foreign policy in sou in south-east asia or whatever. i mean,i i i it's, it's almost an, an obsession with society. isn't it? to bring back people who erm you know perhaps have had their time and ask their opinion. anyway, six thousand into a standard p e p, now er p e ps are erm er an instrument which were basically to do with shares, originally and the shares were invested in u k companies, and er the real dividend value of a sh the share, the, the shares have a dividend, and the real value of a p e p is the dividend yield. now if a go if a company's got a high dividend yield, it might be about six percent gross. and of course it'll be four and a half after it's paid tax, you know if you've got any tax credits from your nationalized shares, you'll see those come through, and y you've got the net return. now p e p allows you to er allows the managers on your behalf to reclaim the tax, so a lot of the funds are geared for income, and when you're retiring, income geared p e ps are excellent news. now, the e the early versions were erm a lot less er flexible, they were the dinosaurs, and if anybody's got an original p e p, they'll know that all the dealing transactions, all the adjustments have all got to be noted and filed, and if anybody's had a lloyds bank p e p since nineteen eighty seven, they'll probably have a compete cabinet full of paperwork by now. which you don't have on a mede modern p e p because they can be written through investment trusts, unit trusts, single shares for three thousand or specialist, er self-select p e ps. self-select p e ps are a little bit different, is that when you, you the managers give you a choice of shares and it's rather like pulling the handle on the one-armed bandit, you say right, i'll start with er er i c i and i'll back that up with b a t, and, and you leave them in for as long as you want, and you pay a charge when you move the shares, so you can actually control the p e p. er very difficult unless you're into the share market er on a regular basis, but erm if you want a p e p, er er i, i'd certainly say they're worth having, and certainly for some of the people er in this room. but don't be erm er led into doing growth, growth p e ps necessarily, because growth p e ps really won't give you much of a deal. if you want a growth-type investment, such as i don't know, far eastern fund, or something like that, or a, or even a european special situations, you n you, you might as well not use the p e p because they wh you get about one percent on er a growth p e p. and that's not going to be of use to anybody is it? you're not saving any tax on that, on that difference. so a one percent dividend yield, not, not worth writing as a p e p. but what they've done is, they've actually dis distorted the rules on p e ps as time's gone along and the chancellor's allowed them to do it, and the distortions are getting more and more elaborate, and er i think they keep knocking on the revenue door and saying er we, we've designed this one, is this okay? and so far the revenue have been going yeah, yeah, go away go away. and er eventually somebody will spot it, and realize that they've actually moved well away from what p p e ps originally were. you see one of the rules is that you keep money in cash until it was invested. and fidelity kept saying well, er if we don't feel like investing it this month, can we keep it in cash a bit longer? and if we're keeping it in cash, can we buy some gilts? or can we buy some fixed interest securities? yeah, okay, you can do that. so now a anything goes in a p e p. which is great while i while it, while it lasts. what does p e p mean? personal equity plan. you can have it nine thousand if you pay six into the fund and another three thousand . yes. and then three thousand in that's the single share p e p in any one . and you need to choose a p e p manager per year, so if you're already with one p e p manager, you've either got to buy him out and give it to another p e p manager, or you can, you can erm er choose another one each year in other words, i do a different p e p each year, with a different manager, and that keeps everything moving so that you've got a good spread. some of them are getting very elaborate, and you're seeing the stuff in the press for things like ten percent gross yields, has anybody seen those? a a absolute scream, they are. but i mean they actually do work, er ten percent gross yield and erm if you asked me to explain how they get the ten percent, i'd have to use some notes they gave to me cos it's, cos it's complicated, but they use derivatives, and they buy in er in the shares and options market, and erm the company i'm thinking of actually own the shares, but you take options on them, and they take commission on the options, they also take dividends, er and by the time you've read the, the, the spiel, it sounds a bit like you've fitted all these petrol savers to your car and you're driving to nottingham, and the tank overflows, it's that sort of it's, it's that sort of theory. but there's a, it, it actually does work, it actually does work. i m i mean we have approved these schemes, i mean th they are nothing to do with direct share ownership. i mean you might have about forty percent of the fund in shares and the rest will be input options, derivatives and all sorts of complicated devices. but basically as far as you are concerned you can get that sort of dividend yield, which is brilliant because i y as a tax-payer if you can te ten percent erm the, the fund is written as a unit trust and you'd be paying seven you'd be paid seven and a half percent on that one, so which one would you choose? have it written as a p e p and it makes good sense. but i think the distortions are getting rather weird now, and i, i think that, that the, in a, in a future budget when the chancellor's less pressed, i mean p e ps really weren't a priority this year, were they? i'm sure he'd got a few more bits of paper on his desk than what shall we do about p e ps? but when he gets round to it, i think he'll control them a bit more closely, now you can invest in that sort of fund quite safely, and although it won't give you any capital growth, because if they're giving you ten percent income, obviously the capital growth's going to be limited, but er if it's the income that you're after, not a bad thing to do, so i mean at the moment i may actually combine one income-type er p e p with one growth and income, where the, where the, perhaps the yield is about five percent. er the original criticism, if you can remember it, was all the ch all the stuff about charges, do you remember all that? about, you know, the horrible charges, and they were horribly badly charged, i mean, lloyds bank you reckon they could activate ten and a half percent in its first year to actually break even you know, because of the initial charges setting up fees, etcetera. now that's pretty heavy going. it wasn't lloyds fault, it was just that they were complying with the original p e p regulations about reporting and, and er so on, so they had to charge more. so it, if it's an ordinary unit trust, your initial charge can be somewhere about five to six percent, however, a number of companies have realized that they can discount if you, if they've got your s if they've got your commitment, they'll discount. so in some groups, if i say right, this client's willing to commit himself for three years minimum, they'll discount the initial charge down to about two percent. in some cases down to nil if we take a five year contract. in other words, if you come out early, you'll be charged, erm er a sliding scale. on that five on the five year one, if you come out year three, you'll get three percent exit charge. now we've been asking for this for years. because nobody likes to pay up front. i mean, it's not fair is it really? i mean you're taking five percent of your money when you first go into the fund, and, and that's an exceptional er amount of money that you won't get back, but if i if they're saying well we'll invest the whole lot for you, but you've got to keep with us,w then y you've got the option. and if in three years you decided the performance was less than adequate, it would be worth you losing two percent to come out. now having said that i mean the late long established er unit trust group, i mean as a, as a company we've got to be very careful who we use, we've got an approved list erm in london and in bournemouth we have erm a, a department which analyzes products, and those products come onto our approved list when they've, when they've fulfilled a number of criteria. are the charges reasonable, er is the performance good, is the managing group secure? and er a number, a number of other factors. so once it's got onto our approved list, we're pretty sure that we're, we're really in the right area. and that would be you know companies you're probably already familiar with, you know people like m and g, erm fidelity, erm er . erm anybody who's into unit trusts who will perhaps recognize some of those names. and then into the investment trust,and colonial, er and erm er let's see,, people like that. so w w w that's constantly reviewed. not that i do it, i mean if i tried to read all that stuff, i'd never leave home but i mean they actually give a a an advice list which we can then comply with. so as far as you're concerned, p e ps have got a tremendous part to play at the moment, and i do recommend that you take advantage of them. two years ago, difficult for me to get a client to move from a building society because they were saying well i'm getting about nine percent with the abbey national, er why should i take the risk on a p e p? well the risk now is staying in abbey national because your rate's down to about four percent net. and the, the dividend yield from a p e p can be anything from sort of five to ten percent and the potential for capital growth. and it's tax-free. and it's tax-free. but you've got to make a mental leap, because i mean for the last five years, things have been pretty horrible, since eighty seven really, i mean we've only had the pick up in the last year. but it's an act of faith to say well,i you know well, i'll go into a p e p. but if you look at the low-risk a aspect of a p e p and you also look at the low charges, it's got to be worth looking at, and certainly in terms of spread for miss , worth erm worth considering, i mean she'd be er a perfect investor for that. some years a tin under the bed was better than equities, cos they were that's right. except er i, i mean i'd say that the income funds actually performed quite well, if you didn't look at the capital value. you see, i mean i, i, i've got lots of clients who've had capital-l er er income-led funds on this sort of thing for years. and i mean if they'd not looked in a paper in nineteen eighty seven eighty eight, and realized that fifteen percent of the fund had suddenly gone missing cos it had you know dropped they they'd have still got income from their investments, and if they didn't need to cash it, then it would have been no problem at all. the funny thing is that er if you look at the better dividend funds in the year of the crash, the dividends actually went up, cos dividend yields from companies were good in that year, so people wouldn't have lost out, their income would have been quite stable. er obviously if it was in decline, terminal decline then your income and your capital would fall as well. but i mean we've had five years of bad stockmarket performances, and in cyclical er economics i think if you look at the sort of post-war boom slump, we're, then we're back into i wouldn't say a boom, er that's not really the right description, but we're certainly back out of the er woods as far as erm er shares go in the u k. erm whether it'll be a sustained erm recovery is another question, but i think you can take the view that you know you will, you will get some mileage out of share performances in the next couple of years. even the banks. er the share prices are higher now than they were months ago. that's right. that's right. and i mean the banks have erm er r really been an i indicator of economic performance, and, and that, that's the case. that it quite a, quite a shock yes. to them i think. yeah, that's right. so if we can have a look at another case, er did anybody do erm excuse me, mr and mrs ?? anybody do ? no, i didn't hand one out. erm ? mr and mrs ? right, okay, just start with mr . er he's got a pension from the local of four thousand. yeah. erm his wife is self-employed, has got four thousand, but it's not . so it could come up could go. no mortgage. and the building society savings of twenty eight thousand. right, so erm what do we do with that then? s s cos they needed a secure income, didn't they? yes.. er what's the i, i mr 's got four thousand, yes. so with the married man's allowance, he's got, he's well under. yes. six five. . and his wife has something like er three four four five, yes. er which may or may not be there because we don't know how much her income is. i think we'd have to ignore that allowance yes. and just assume that she, she'll just about use it, erm er okay. er well in that case then, i, i put eight thousand into a building society for easy access, car, holiday,, whatever, yeah. and i put twenty thousand pounds to give, i, i mean i took it that she would use her allowance, er i took it erm as twenty thousand pounds to give his wife as high a possible gross earning yes. and so divided it that the remainder went to the husband to take up the one thousand one hundred and sixty five. right. right. so you could actually erm erm put something in joint names even, and it would use up his allowance. i mean if you took that ten percent, it would be two thousand a year from yes. erm and if that was so, yes. roughly half of that could go to him yes. to make up his allowances, right. a a and the rest er right. that's fine, but how would you do it? er was it just a high rate building society, or? no, i would put it in gross earnings, perhaps erm half into national savings yes. er and look round for something else. right. so national savings, that's not a bad decision, cos i mean national savings are absolutely secure, and the other thing is that you don't need to put twenty five thousand pounds in to get the highest rate, you'll get the highest rate from two thousand pounds upwards, so it's very good for small amounts. so it's excellent here, but we know that it's at a variable, and i think the problem that you were probably facing is how do you secure a a better rate than that. erm you know the, the answer must be that erm er just before i answer that, i mean has anybody else done mrs , and mr ? anybody else do that one? we did it, but it was very similar. right, okay, fine, that s saves a bit of time. but i mean the thing is here that the twenty thousand pounds, if it's invested er into national savings, you c you've got another ten thousand and you could look for er a fixed return. now normally, fixed returns we do use, you know like guaranteed income bonds, guaranteed er returns, but unfortunately, if you look at the halifax list, or the er any building society list, their fixed-rate returns are very dodgy and they're round about sort of er six and a half to seven percent at the most erm if you tie for three to four years, and they go up to about seven and a half, maybe a little bit more if you tie for five years. now i'm not too sure whether interest rates, i'm not very keen on tying interest rates, you see i think we're going up again, perhaps within the next eighteen months, so one way round is to use another type of investment, and you could use an offshore erm fund, er building society stroke investment fund, er which would actually give you a better rate. has anybody used offshore funds at all? right. er. was that a, is that pure building society investment, or? no, it was a a bank gilt fund. a gilt fund? right. erm jersey. jersey gilts? and an and what was your opinion of that, did it work or not? the cheque keeps coming. yeah. there was a problem with gilt funds about three years ago, and t s b ran up against the problem of falling gilt yields and trying to maintain the, the flow to the investor, which they did, but th they failed to tell the investor that they were having to erm sell gilts and er trade under market value, so in fact you reduce the fund, but there are halfway stages, and i mean at the moment i can get round about eight percent, plus on, on erm er offshore funds. and they, they invest outside u k and you're p perfectly legal to use these, and as long as they're securities and investment board regulated, you're okay. so you could put some money into er an offshore fund. something which is regulated and i is part of a major organization, a bank, or an insurance company, you're pretty well okay. and that, that eight percent plus could then be paid into your account. but it's likely to be more stable than the u k, because if the u k rates continue to fall, they'll move their money into erm other er currencies. it'll always be a sterling fund, but it can be moved into other currencies, or into gilts, as your fund obviously is. so there is that flexibility there. so that's one of the few options you've got at the moment. i mean, fixed rates are dangerous because once you've fixed, if interest rates then go up, you've lost out on your er return and you can't get your money out anyway, so i mean at the moment it's really erm er er very deeply into the cycle of low, of low interest rates. okay, so now that was fairly straightforward, erm let's have a look at another case. mr , he's interesting. we've got mr . yes. right. mr . not very much on him though. no. i've got him. right so, er right, if you can start us off with mr then, tell us the well, i've, i didn't look er erm i can see deficiencies in what i've done now you've been through the other well, it doesn't matter. yeah. i mean, if you just tell us what you well, i thought he should put erm er about ten thousand into a building society er type investment right. of some sort. i'll just set the scene for the others in that he's er fifty five isn't he? he's just come back from australia yes. and he's in inherited a family home, so he's got a home to live in, but he doesn't earn very much does he? no, but he's got a hundred and twenty thousand nest egg. so he's got three thousand pounds income, and he's got a hundred and twenty thousand pound nest egg. yes. i've concentrated on investing the nest egg really. right. okay. so you've got ten thousand into the building society. yes, i think he needed something quite secure and accessible. yeah. then er i thought perhaps he should go for erm erm something that's er will give him a, a good income, but er mhm. growth as well, so i wondered about er say thirty thousand in investment trusts, or perhaps yes. with a p e p you see that yes. thirty thousand split between those. yeah, that's fine. and then i, well if it's really income he needs, i thought he could look at an equities portfolio for the eighty thousand, say, forty thousand in er groceries and forty thousand in pharmaceutical. right. so er sounds like you can act as inv investment manager for this man actually. erm, er but er yes,so eighty thousand to er in equity portfolio, and that would give him a yield of maybe erm you know four percent, something like that after tax deducted, so er let's say erm say you know er say three thousand two hundred from that roughly, and p e p exceed the limits? er, yes it would. we'd have to put most of it into investment trusts yes. and just use up the p e p. unless it was his wife as well. yes erm he's single. yes, he's single. and of course he could use it up in subsequent years, he could move some of this into a p e p. so er that would er and he'd get a little bit on his building society, wouldn't he? right, yes, you would, yes. i mean he'd perhaps get erm you know er let's say four hundred pounds a year on his building society, so he'd have some extra income, er four five, just over five thousand pounds a year, that's . more than doubled what he's got. yes, that's right, er i mean the thing is you don't know how much income you've got to generate really. no. and er in, within that as you know you can actually er go for er the higher income if he wanted to he could push the income up on the hundred thousand say, we could make the income round about seven percent if we wanted to do. seven percent plus. which would give him seven thousand a year, rather than five. so, er there's a fair bit of er i was interested in what you said about equity portfolios, erm the er thing is you'd have to have that privately managed, wouldn't you? yes. and private management means that you would go to a bank or stockbroker, and then you would pay them an annual fee, and there would be other charges, you know for selling er and buying of shares, yes. and my er feeling is that under say a hundred and fifty thousand, that y that you're going to find the charges are quite heavy, because it's not a group investment, it's an individual investment. erm some of the banks actually lay off the charges to some extent, but i think he might find that a bit expensive to run, erm and of course they'll take their charges even if they don't make a profit for you. as often as not. a s and, and quite frankly, er you're going to have to be a little bit careful. i mean you could use group investments, i mean what you did with the investment trusts gives him a better spread, yes. lower charges, and i think you could perhaps use other funds to erm er increase that. er but erm certainly the theory's okay, i mean he's got instant access here, investment trust and equities, and if he needed the income, he could certainly get it. i mean you've got quite a lot of movement in there and, and you could do quite a bit for him. i mean i imagined he was working in earl's court, you know, pulling pints of fosters and er possibly er needing a few bob to er you know tide him, but that, that's fine. did anybody else do mr ? we thought about him buying some property and letting it out. yes, yes, that's not a bad idea. he could become a landlord. so you, you could put him into property, erm but erm i don't know if he'd been in the u k for the last few years whether he'd be that keen on commercial property. would you like the whole of the dockland development for a hundred and twenty thousand? so t that much? it's quite pricey . it is a good time now to buy isn't it? yes, it is a good time to buy mr , yes, we ought to encourage him to buy. so property and he could rent, and the rental income then could er be used er as a, as a useful form of income. so that's a possibility. erm so any other possibilities for mr ? we thought he might find the house was too big for him, sell it and buy something smaller. right, yes he could do. get some capital that way. yes, he could do. or he could marry a rich sheila. a wealthy widow has a lot . yes, he could start corresponding with miss ,. run a guest house or take . yes, run a guest house yes, yes. right, okay. surprising he can get rid of the property by you know, sort of letting the building society or someone have it, have the capital out of it, and use that capital as well, cos if he's single he's got no dependent well, yes, yes. we assume he's got no dependents, yes. so he could actually have the benefit of that money as well. right, you mean like a home income scheme? yeah. yes. er, very wary of those, really, and we're not recommending them at all. er but that's only because of the erm the difficulties of erm er of, of ownership of this sort of thing. i mean you u some of them used to be the growth roll up, you know the the, the debt rolled up against the value of the home, and once it gets to seventy five percent, you lose the home, or could do, and of course people who took this out, it was before the housing collapse,you're in difficulties. so unless you're very elderly, and you're living in a very er splendid dwelling it's probably not worth it. i mean i if we have ten thousand pounds, we could put four thousands into an, an annuity, and say six thousand into a p e p, to give a simple example, and the p e p could then accumulate value over the te over the five years, let's assume it's a five year one, but it could be ten. and that would give him about eighty pounds a month at the moment. so that would be a guaranteed eighty pounds a month, and at the end of five years, we'd assume that the p e p had actually grown enough to give him his money back, you know it's, it's because this, because it's a temporary annuity, it would be lost after the five years. it's not a lifetime annuity, and that would have grown to replace his er capital. so he'd get the ten thousand back. they're quite flexible, because he can actually take the income from the p e p if he wants to increase his er income as he goes along. in mr 's case, i'd probably write it for longer than five years, probably do a ten year one. the snag is at the moment is that annuity rates aren't too hot, cos they've gone down with interest rates, so er i think maybe that i'd hold off doing that until later, and use other types of investment, and then maybe at maturity, roll it back into, into erm a er single premium annuity. that's an alternative. now i i have a gut feeling against annuities. i don't like things that disappear, and i don't like and you can't have your money back, no. once they've got your money. actually they do work well, i mean there is, there is one scenario where it does work well, if you're elderly, and you're in good health, then annuities are, are pretty good value because they look on their actuarial charts, if you're an eighty eight year old, and er make an assessment and say well, for every ten thousand you give us, we'll give thirteen thousand a year. so you've not got to live that long before you're into profit. you've got to make sure that you're in good health, and you're a er hale and hearty individual, so if you're from a long lived family, erm i once er made a mistake on er delivering one of these courses and er i think erm erm there's an elderly lady used to work on the course, do you remember miss, miss ? oh yes. and she's a super lady. and er very straight-faced in fact, and she was sitting at the back of the room, and i, i'd just said to everybody, i said nobody here's got a life purchased annuity, have they? you know, cos i knew everybody was far too young. and er this hand went up from the back, you see. and i thought oh, well that's interesting. so it was miss . and then i, and i made this bit of a faux pas, i says, oh you must have got a very good rate, cos i knew she'd been retired years and years, you see. and everybody fell about laughing, realized . but er i mean er she, she was in a perfect position to do it, i mean she'd been retired a long time, she was in good health and obviously an annuity would be perfect for her er where it wouldn't be for a younger person, so i mean life annuities not got. but i think you're right on temporary annuities, they are good if the rate's good. the ones that i did two years ago, which are giving a return of something about er nine to nine and a half percent a year, plus the potential for return in capital, will actually be very good. i mean th th they've done better than anybody than everything else, because as rates have come down, i can go back and see a client and the national savings has fallen, and the building society's fallen, but the, the annuity's still plugging away. and it's horses for courses, it's secure. it's a bit dull, but it does actually provide you with a level of income that you want. and what you don't know is the question mark is at the end will you get your money back or not? well sometimes if i'm doing er say a sixty year old, to sixty five, he's got his state pension to come in at sixty five, so even if the p e p hasn't quite recovered, he might just decide to leave that where it is, and then his state pension comes in, his income is then made up, and off we go again. so the thing is with all financial planning that you try and keep things very flexible. and one of the flexibilities may actually be to say well if we've got this guaranteed income, we can afford to do something else with the rest. cos the problem is that th even di share dividends aren't guaranteed. i mean, banks and building societies, whoever, can cut their dividend rate, and you suddenly find your income falls dramatically in one year. so an annuity can't fall once you've bought it it's guaranteed, so you can see there are advantages to it. and er it's a matter of getting the right mix. so i, i wouldn't be entirely suspicious of an of annuities, but at the moment the er the erm temporary rates aren't too good. er right, so er if you take just one more example and then i'll have to get back to er what we do. did we finish off mr ? anybody have an alternative for mr ? no. erm what about erm another case, have we got another case that er we, we haven't covered? nobody wants challenge me. no i mean it's not, it's not that, it's just that if you've got, if you've got anything you want to say on these cases, then it's worth bringing it out now. you've not mentioned premium bonds. is it worth, putting a certain amount s just, just in case, just in case by seven percent on ernie,. ernie's just been down-rated by the way to reduce the ou the, the ac the average now is less than seven percent. it's gone down to about five point something hasn't it? i in line with interest rates. now there was a theory in the south of england, that when one retired, for the first year, you dumped most of your lump sum into premium bonds on the hope of a big win, and then after the first year you invested it, you see, having taken the big win. cos if you see the, the theory was that if you left it there indefinitely, er obviously the money declines in real value, doesn't it, because you're getting no increase on it. so, i mean to me, it's a pure gamble. er absolute gamble. so i mean erm i was going to say put money on the grand national, but you can't really do that can you? but as far as, as far as erm the, the er the, the investment in, in premium bonds, it's got to be a flutter, it can be nothing else. and i mean i, i find some clients are really lucky, you know they've got a few fiddly bits of issues and they keep getting fifty pounds here and fifty pounds there, every time i come back from my holidays, the first thing i open is the premium bond win. yeah, well, you see . won three times since last summer. good god. yeah, do you want sell your ? enough to encourage one. yes. yeah, i think, i think really the er the er overall view of it is that it's not serious investment, i mean it is just pure flutter. er, and i mean if you want to buy you know a few hundred of it then fine, you know you could b it'll do the job, you know if it's, it's not a, a thing that er er you wouldn't include it on your list of essentials? no, not at all. otherwise you might be desperate to get awa to do something, or get away on holiday, but you're still waiting for that big win. it's a wait for ever. yeah, you w yeah, that's right. so er to look at it er another way,w i, i'll stop before i go back to the erm slides, because i want to show you a few on you know erm er the way that money's worked over the last forty years, but if you look at index-linked certificates, cos somebody mentioned that, are they worth having? that's national savings, and to my mind the only good issue they've got at the moment, and er once you get with index-linked certificates, they were originally the granny bonds that were launched er in the early er late seventies, early eighties. and er they erm were there to provide additional growth on savings, and it was, it was the inflation, the r p i plus a b a bonus which equalizes out at three and a quarter percent per annum. notice, this is the sixth issue. yeah. the fifth was better. that's the one i got. yeah. i mean, i, i did what i could in the fifth issue, but you just run out of cash, that's the trouble, but i mean the sixth issue is good. your maximum investment is now ten thousand pounds each. wouldn't recommend masses into it, but because it's no income potential, and it's not that flexible, you've got to keep it for five years to make it really work. but if you do keep it, then the results should be pretty good. having r you see i've had clients saying to me well, i'm not sure about this one. you know i, i like the other stuff, but this one's a bit iffy, you know. and they'll quote to me that inflation's at two percent. okay, well you've got two percent plus three and a quarter, that makes five and a quarter. and that it has to be paid before probate is granted. so there'd be d issue, so it's tax free. four fi five and a quarter tax free, you've got to put an awful lot of money in the building society to get that sort of return haven't you? you're thinking that the gross is round about seven percent. so you think well is that a good bet? i, i'd suggest that it is a good bet, particularly if you think that erm if we do get rising inflation, er in the next year we could be, i mean the projected figures are round about er, by the middle of next year, round about five percent. this is from various investment houses in, in, in the city, so five percent plus three and a quarter, eight and a quarter percent, and i would bet any money that interest rates haven't gone up that quickly. y i mean you they might have risen slightly, but you won't be getting that sort of investment return, you won't be paying any tax, and you're guaranteed your money's absolutely safe. and if we do get a period of rapid inflation, because if one looks back at seventy four seventy five, with inflation running at over twenty percent a year, stock market out of control, erm and er and er building society rates very poor, erm you know seventy four begins to look a bit like ninety four to me. erm but i mean obviously it's a different situation, and the chancellor's still got some manoeuvring to do, but we could end up in, in rapid inflation again, because we haven't had it for ten years. i mean i've the figures on here, i'll show you in a minute, doing absolutely brilliant. for the last ten years, we've been able to retire and keep our living standards up. i know it because i see people regularly that retired five years ago six years ago, seven. they're fine. no real problems if they've been sensible with their money. but what happens if we get that sort of period again? er you see r p i linking on your pensions is brilliant, you know there's no, no question about it. nobody in industry has actually got an absolute guarantee, i mean even the british telecom schemes said they'll pay, they'll pay the rate of inflation if they feel they can afford. but that means at some point they may actually go below it. not likely, but it could happen. so you're fully index-linked. now,d don't forget index-linking is not the same as salary increases, and in a time of rapid inflation, prices go up, salaries go up, and the government can interfere in any way it wants with the r p i index. it can take factors in and out. it can take in mortgages, it can take in property, it can take in other values, so that r p i is a very much a, a negotiable figure. it's like my wife saying well it costs me a lot more at sainsburys than two percent, you know, increase over the last year. and, and that's true. er so it's a moveable index. so when you're retired, you've got to think that you're not salary-linked, you're only r p i-linked. and that's where these certificates are the only guarantee that i can provide which will actually say well if we get fifteen percent inflation in nineteen ninety seven, they will pay fifteen p percent inflation, plus the three and a half percent three and a quarter percent bonus. so you can see it's a very very good contract. it may not look it now, but i think it will be over the next five years. at the end of five years, you've got the option er and you can er then extend the er into the erm er next issue if you wish, or you can go on the extension rate, which isn't usually good, or in index-linked certificates' case, they'll perhaps give you indexation, but no er bonuses. so it's perhaps better to reinvest. i mean the old index-linked certificates, when they came up i put them back into the fourth issue, and then the fifth issue and so on because the bonuses are better. only er national savings are worth keeping your eye on, because the government's very keen to make a few shillings out of national savings, and you might get some good issues in the future. erm so erm that's the one i'd recommend at the moment. the fixed-r the fixed- rates really aren't worth going for. so by the same token, i assume, building societies are also starting paying something over inflation rates,issued? yes, erm building societies i mean i think you're thinking about their equity schemes aren't you? erm yes. those are a bit, those are a bit of an untried er area. i'm not stopping people doing it, because people ring me up and say should i do it? and this is where you, the, the building society offer you er the rate of erm er return on the stock market erm and er a bonus on your account if it doesn't make the rate. er have you seen those? er alliance and leicester did one, and they, they're offered to investors in the building societies. just be a bit er bit, bit er wary of them in the sense that you don't know who's managing the fund, er because it's their money, it's not your money, they don't actually invest the money from you, it's their money they're investing. and they'll give you the profit if they make it. it's to keep you invested in building societies, only they, they're frantic because all the money's going out and they want to keep their erm their erm deposits up, so they're offering these schemes, and they are quite good, there are no charges as such, but er you'll get the value of the fund that they've made, or you'll get a say two or three percent bonus per annum on top of the er share rate, er if you keep it for four or five years. so they're not bad value, but i, again i wouldn't overdo it, because we don't know what the schemes will actually produce, and if you're going to that i'd er most of the schemes are limited to five thousand minimum. erm, i'll have a look at some of the other er things that you can do with your money, cos time's getting on. erm this is the inflation figures i talked about briefly. in nineteen eighty two, a loaf was thirty seven p and in ninety sorry eighty two, thirty seven p, ninety two, it's fifty four p and er i'm reliably informed by er my wife that you can actually get loaves less than that if you go to the er large supermarkets where they're discounting the bread to get you in the store obviously. but that means that bread's not really gone up that much. er beer, er seventy two pence in nineteen eighty, hundred and twenty eight pence ninety two. and you can see here the affect of er forty six percent increase in the price of bread, seventy eight percent on beer, eighty four on cars, and r p i has moved up seventy nine percent. so if you're r p i linked, not too bad. but those figures are tremendous compared to the figures i used to have, because we update these every two years, and the ninety ni eighty to ninety figures were poor, and the and worse than that between er er you know the previous two years. so don't think that they'll hold necessarily. inflation, the effects on your pension, you've got the engineer on a level er annuity and the headmaster on er an index-linked annuity. erm er in other words, index-linked pension, and he's n virtually doubled his money between nineteen eighty and nineteen ninety. and that means that er you know the indexation has actually worked very well. erm so if you're getting another job obviously, you've got to think that you may not need as much income, er if you're taking the early retirement well obviously you may be more income dependent, and do a personal budget, going back to that pro forma, if you spend a bit of time doing a budget, you will find it beneficial. you'll know what you're spending, and where you're spending it, and you then control you p your finances a bit more accurately. cos when you're working, you don't really have the time or the interest in actually seeing where the money goes. er can you tell me please er how i can avoid a particular charge. erm i wanted to do a personal budget, so i went along to my bank and i said i want to close all the erm automatic payments that you make on my behalf. yes. and they said, sure, that'll be thirty pounds. well don't you get a, a monthly statement? well, yes, but i wanted them to do me a list you see. oh i see. and i thought thirty pounds was rather a lot. oh it is a, it is a, it is a lot of er money to pay, yes. i mean usually you can identify them from your bank statement. i'll, i'll do it free myself. yeah, it's a bit expensive i was thinking if they would charge me fifteen, yes. i wouldn't, it would have saved me a chore,. right. but i thought thirty expensive. yes. yes. the, the direct debits that you've been paying for years but you're not sure where they go to, that sort of thing? that's right. yes. yeah. so this is not to do with the price of eggs, it's to do with erm eggs in one basket, and er obviously er the basic theory with any investment advice is don't put all your eggs into one area er in one basket if you like. if the ship goes down or the basket gets broken, that's what happens. mixing the metaphors there, but er basically don't take a risk on one company or one product. and er keep a spread. erm, short-term investments, just a summary. bank accounts, building society, national savings ordinary account, investment account, er national savings, which isn't bad if you want small amounts of money invested but er access is a month. and tessa. now you're all familiar with tessa, aren't you? you all know what tessas are? er tax-exempt special savings account, from the, from the banks and building societies. you can invest up to nine thousand pounds over five years, er rates vary with the society unless you're lucky enough to have a fixed rate. and the return should be quite good because you're not paying tax on the, on the investment, if you cash early then you pay tax on it. so it's a five year investment. er but if anybody's got tessas running at ma matur er er er retirement, i'll inevitably keep them going, cos they're normally half way through now, some people have made three payments with tessa, there's only another two payments to make, that's only another eighteen hundred and then six hundred in the final year. so it's worth keeping those going. er if you fully fund a tessa at nine thousand, we'd estimate around eleven to twelve thousand back, and not the sixteen thousand that was projected at the top of the cycle about three years ago. erm leamington spa ought to have been shot for their tessa advertising. you know the people who rang me up to say hey sixteen thousand on nine over five years? not bad. but of course they were quoting at the very top of leamington's rate, and since then it's gone right down. in fact leamington got a few things wrong, because they've now been taken over. er, but erm er nevertheless, the, the fact is that the tessa is a good investment, providing that you don't need access to your money, and you're going to get a tax advantage from it. erm, capital bonds, they used to be good rates, they, they've deteriorated really, national savings certificates well i've covered index-linked, the only one i'd really say er isn't super unless you're a higher-rate taxpayer is the fortieth issue, which is paying under six percent, it's not really worth picking up for five years. gilts, complicated. anybody into gilts? anybody got? yes, you've got the jersey gilts haven't you? no,. did you buy yourself? i bought three quarter percent right. seven . right, you bought those through the national savings stockrooms. erm yeah. now er i i if you're buying gilts individually, you've got to know what you're doing unless you want to hang on to them to the end of the terms, cos gilts are government securities, and they have the different rate, rates of return, different maturity dates. and the only way to really run gilts if you're serious is to actually trade them. and a trade, trade in gilts is, is just as complicated as shares, not for the small investor. now, i've got a retired accountant in nottingham who spends his days trading gilts, but not what i'd want to do. but he's got all the charts and he knows what he's doing. but basically a gilt has got a fixed rate of, of value at the end and the beginning, so it's worth a hundred pounds day one, a hundred pounds day you know whatever,h how many days it's in force, if it's a five year gilt, it's worth a hundred, a hundred pounds then. in between it can vary, depending on interest rates and the market. so gilt traders actually s buy and sell gilts in order to make a profit. and er sun life who're a, who, who er you know are favourite for er for er gilts management, er er were busy buying index-linked gilts about twelve months ago when nobody wanted them. cos th er index-linked gilts were po were we very poor, because against interest rates they didn't give you a lot of guarantees obviously, you know, interest rates were high, index-linked gilts were er already languishing. but i think they'll come up well in the next few years. but what they'll probably do is sell those before they actually reach their premium. they'll probably sell the gilts on then re reinvest in other investments. but it is complicated and i er mean really for the average investor, unless you're a non-taxpayer, because the in er the income from the gilts is gross, it may be worth er it may be worth a non-taxpayer holding gilts, and er getting a gross yield of maybe eight and a quarter, nine percent. that's, that's fine. but if you're trying to trade them, you come unstuck cos you, you've got to make all sorts of er predictions about interest rates. mind you you might be better than the chancellor at that, but er you know. it's a difficult market that. so let's have a look at the effect, effect on in on building society investments and other inflation the effects on it. erm, between nineteen seventy three er and er nineteen ninety one, reinvestment in building societies gave quite a good return actually erm gave four thousand three hundred and ninety eight return. er r p i was five seven eight eight, so in, in other words, r p i ahead of building society rates. so in the longer term, building societies don't do well. you've had five years of phenomenal results in building societies, they've been really exceptional. but i think those days are now over and anybody who's been in building societies, there's now a feeling er that things have altered quite a long way. erm asset backed investment, well we've covered shares, investment trusts, p e ps, property, gold coins. don't know much about gold coins erm i mean i suppose they're a tradable asset. but er i've just finished treasure island with my daughter, that's as far as i've got. erm. er property, er very much a variable, you don't know where you are with property really. i mean it's, it's, it can be a good investment, and maybe the time is now to, to go for it, but of course, it's er hard to release er your asset if it's a falling market. because people are finally trying to sell houses. investment bonds we haven't covered, and they are a variation of a unit trust really, but they're issued by live companies, and you can do other things with them, and they have got tax advantages. one of the better ones at the moment are the with profits bonds, where you're guaranteed a re returns, rather like an endowment, if you buy it as a single premium again. and they are quite useful if you've come across those from prudential, g a, er they're quite useful. and good for income as well. er, comparisons on investment returns since nineteen forty five. if you had a thousand in a building society and a thousand equities, you'd be a very happy man in nineteen forty five i would think, but if you look at what happens between then and nineteen ninety, the building society's written, risen by eight point nine times, and look at the equities, a hundred and eight thousand,er that really is stunning, you know that, that re return on equities. but don't forget that those can always be in reverse, and if you look at the, there's a chart, which shows five year periods wh where shares didn't make any profits at all. we're just getting to the end of that now, we'll be another mark on the er five year list you know between eighty seven and ninety two. well, you've probably lost or, or not gained on shares. but don't forget that over a longer period, shares are bound to do better. because when there's inflation in the system, company values are inflated, company er profits are inflated, so companies go up with inflation. so erm worth bearing that in mind. er, adjusted for erm the r p i, one thousand pounds adjusted on a building society would have actually lost you money. your thousand pounds would now be worth five hundred and ten, if you take the effect of r p i. and er i like to think that if you'd bought a nice full-nose morris in nineteen forty five, and you wanted a replacement in nineteen ninety, you'd have still got a reasonable metro wouldn't you? you'd have still got your wheels. so in that sense, the build the, the equities have kept pace, but if you think in the short term, you'll always be out of, out of order with shares, if you're thinking of going in for three or four years, you you're likely to get your fingers burnt. you've got to look at it at five years plus. and er management through er investment trusts, p e ps, er and er share portfolios, the best way of achieving er security. er this is just to show income from building societies during the seventy five to ninety period, and the yellow line shows a decline or at least a jiggly line, which just reflects interest rates, and the un unit trust income rising over that time is the orange line. just making the point that in the early years, your income will be less, then there's a crossover point, because the value of the asset grows, and so does the yield on the fund. er these are guaranteed areas, annuities, local authority loans, which used to be popular, pay gross, but they're not around that much these days, they're not that competitive. and local co-ops sometimes offer good rates on, on fixed-rate deposits as well. but they've all fallen foul of erm low interest rates at the moment. so erm national savings again worth, worth mentioning those erm deposit accounts not really up to much at the moment. so annuities are very safe then, regular repayments, partly tax-free, but not available, once you've spent your money, that's it. and you get part of your money back tax-free. er p e ps i've covered. and i just want to look at capital deployment here. i mean in summary, i, i'd say that this is the sort of thing they'd look for in a, in a portfolio. some in immediate access, which is your building society, some back to back through either a an endowment scheme, or a p e p scheme where you've got the security of the annuity to back it. then some national savings, possibly some income bonds, and then onto the growth side which would be bonds, unit trusts, shares, p e ps etcetera. so they're er the three blocks of er investment. and i'd even go, i think really you've got to look at it as sort of immediate-term, immediate access,er medium-term investment, and longer-term investment over here. cos even national savings cycle over a five year period, and what you want to achieve is money coming back into your hands regularly over that period so you can take another look at what you're doing. so when i'm seeing clients mainly at the end of a, of a three year, fixed-rate deposit, again at five years when we get a national savings maturing, and so on and so forth. and really that should be er a secure portfolio that you don't need to worry about too much. it should actually pull through all your need. and on the building society side, that's your instant access fund,y anything you need in the meantime, if we've said that we want to achieve eight hundred a month income, and that's really the basic income, any holidays, any incidentals, come from this account. and er you know we keep the income steady on the other two parts. erm, so if you're looking for advice, independent financial advisers. well, we deal with a wide range of different groups, and erm we've got to produce a best advice list, and er we try to find you the best contract available in the market. that doesn't mean we're always right, incidentally. er but we try and eli eliminate the poorer companies, we try and make sure that we go for strength and security, as much as return. and er that means adopting the current market. erm so erm if you're looking for advice, er try to get sound, impartial advice, free and without obligation. and please get a written report, a proper written report. if you haven't got one, it's not worth proceeding. because that written report is your evidence that they've actually taken information, analyzed it, and come back to you with a solution. and if there is anything that you want to discuss with your adviser, positive or negative later, you can go back to your report, say well this is what should have happened, and can you explain what is happening? so it's your document if you like. only i've come across one or two head teachers who've taken out things like a b cs recently, and they didn't realize that they wouldn't get a lot of value if they cashed them early, you know, if they cashed them within two or three years. erm one chap thought he could cash his a b c before his pension, and he'd actually bought a massive amount of a b c business, to retire at fifty five. and of course if he doesn't retire at fifty five, the authority or, or the school, his a b c's just destroyed his pension. and er i mean i tried to indicate you know to him that he could claim against the company and get his premiums back, but unfortunately, there was no letter and no i indication, and the person was no longer with the company. so it was his word against the company. and all the product details were there, i mean you know that all the product details would be in front of you, but whether you actually read the small print, it's, is, is, is the er is the issue really. and you can't get compensation for that. i mean i doubt it'll matter in this case, it's not that serious. but it was serious in the sense that he was given wrong advice. so make sure you're dealing with a company that's, that's committed to what you know the market that you're in, that you're, you know, that you're familiar with the people that you're working with. independent advice er comes from major brokers, the banks and building societies have come out of independent advice pretty well, because they've decided that it's expensive and a hassle, cos we're regulated all the time and of course it makes, we've, we've got to analyze the products on the market, so we've got to pay people to do that. so it is expensive, relatively. but, the banks and building societies ha have found that people didn't want independent advice, because they didn't ask for it. so now, unless you go in and actually bang on the counter, they'll give you the advice of their tied erm agency. er i mean standard life for instance tied with the halifax, g a with the derbyshire, erm endless societies have tied. er bradford and bingley i think have remained independent. erm, but there are other organizations as well erm and er you see nat west, you know you remember the man with the wings who used to walk round in the advert? you know. well he's taken his wings off now and joined clerical medical. er so er i mean the, the thing is that they, they, they a are in a position where they can improve their profits by er sectoring the operation. you'd do it if you were on a bank executive and you said well only five percent of people ask for independent advice, why do we bother with all that lot? you know. er just make it available, if somebody asks for it, they'll go and drag somebody up to have a look at you, and they will keep er er they've made it so they keep an independent arm, but it's not the major part of their business. they are interested in volume, obviously, and that's what y that's what they're going to go for through their products. no that's no problem, except that you must know who you're talking to. cos if you read adverts in the paper and things, you wonder who . it says things like impartial advice, doesn't it for mortgages, erm in the nottingham and the derby paper, and then you read at the bottom it says erm an appointed representative of legal and general. well, you know i h i hardly think that's impartial. i mean, it will be, perhaps where they try and place the mortgage for you but erm i w i bet you they won't recommend anything but legal and general when it comes to actually, you know, covering your mortgage. so, er that's the er point to ra er to, to make there. i mean we use standard life, we use clerical, we use most of the major groups, erm but it's always a matter of trying to find the best contract at the time. i mean, at the moment, three or four groups are actually pushing up their annuity rates again er to get business in. so i'll probably use those three groups until they've got enough business and then they'll, they'll retract the rate, and i'll wait for somebody else to come along. so you know that's the way that the system works and we've got the choice to, to actually make those decisions. erm it's er it's er entirely up to you obviously wh wh whether you take, where y you take your advice, but erm i would make the point that if you're retiring in the next year or so, erm best to take advice erm relatively early, you know maybe two to three months before you retire. you've then got the time to look at your report, decide whether it's suitable, perhaps have another chat with your adviser, and then at that stage you're ready to go ahead. erm you know the difficult thing for me is when i'm working with people who've actually been given no notice at all, and that's happening with lots of organizations where on friday you're suddenly told you've got no job, but your pension's available. er they may have had some inkling, but you know they might have applied for a timings, you know it suddenly comes. and that's difficult, because you need a bit of lead in time to actually think it all through. the mistakes are made in investment terms when you actually rush at something, and you decide to go ahead and invest before you've really studied all the options. and then obviously once you've done that, you might live to regret it, in that erm the erm the investment itself might not be suitable for you. so er take your time, and erm do l look at all the options in front of you. and just one final word of warning, and that is to do with newspapers. there's a lot of stuff in newspapers about you know erm er investments and what you can do with your money and get the p e p with one and a half percent discount, and all the rest of it. er but erm if you do er business through a paper, then nobody is responsible for the investment business that you do. i mean, nobody's there to back you up, if you need a, if you need any assistance, or it's or the company's not really bona fide then you've got no comeback. so i think you've got to look at this as er saying well, if you get external advice, at least you're covered and er i mean er if a, if a company's in difficulties, we perhaps would know before you would, erm that erm you know that we shouldn't really be investing with them. so i mean what you're getting is the expertise, and the, and the assistance of erm an external adviser. erm, if you want to know how a advisers are paid, erm you know then i er would explain that under the terms and conditions of er 's business, we're actually paid erm a salary by , and er i obviou obviously get er you know a car to get about in etcetera, but the, the, when we place business er the er commissions that we get, generate are paid to , they go down to head office in bournemouth, they're then used to give us our er our you know returns, advances and what have you. so that's where the money goes. but don't forget that that is not an additional charge to you. so that erm i mean if i recommended a norwich union income plan, and you nipped into nottingham to buy, the charge would be the same, whether you bought it from me or from norwich. and er the, the difference is that i will know, at any one time, whether norwich are offering you the best rate or not. and i can decide then on which o which company i'm going to use. erm so you don't lose out by using an adviser. and where possible, we do try and pass on any discounts that are available to you. er i mean if a particular group's promoting a product which we're already using, then i might switch investment to that product if there's a big discount. because it's very competitive at the moment, and people are actually discounting charges quite regularly. and where that's available, obviously we'll pass it on. so erm er ongoing charges there aren't any. we don't l levy any charges for mon er monitoring portfolios. er but we're not i must explain we're not discretionary managers. now discretionary management is a another thing. i mean have you come across that? that's where you actually sign over er the management of your whole portfolio to another individual, as you would with a share portfolio with a bank. and that is a different matter, because you're then, they then make decisions on your behalf, and th they will actually move and, and, and reinvest er take commissions from some of those reinvestments and that's all going to them, and fine if they do the job. but you've got to think carefully whether, about whether discretionary management is really erm what you want. in the sense that you've got no control over your portfolio at all, and it's just invested and they give you a statement. er, harriet mason's supposed to have discretionary advisers . in charge of. oh right. oh. it's erm yes. yeah, yes. they're not supposed to handle their own shares if they're in a position to have inside information. yeah, well i mean, that's a, that's a difficult one, inside information, when you get down below the top ranks there are lots of people in the mid mi medium-ranks who would know about insider dealing, and i'm sure use it. but that's something we're not party to. er but anyway, discretionary management can cost a lot of money, erm but you've got to weigh up whether it's actually worth it. i think in the case of share portfolios, you need a lot of money to make it work properly. and er you always want to look at the track record. i mean my belief is that if standard life and m and g can't show me a profit on a, a good managed fund, i doubt that anybody in a another institute is going to do any better. cos er the, the people that run these funds are highly paid and highly experienced, and erm you know i don't think banks or building societies or any other institution is going to pay more, they're buying in their skills,the top offices. i mean that's just view of it, erm and er i m obviously there are individual funds that perform very well, you know. and when you're getting advice, don't forget that erm if it's, particularly the, a single company, they will be showing you figures which actually show their products in a reasonable light. i mean, you would, wouldn't you? er so er i mean they're going to show you the seven year figure, maybe don't show you the ten year figure, because they don't look too good over ten years. erm so you can get those figures yourself from money management, and from er various erm newspapers, and you can actually check performances if you want to. but again, that's the sort of thing the we'd monitor. erm, i, i'd like to thank you all for your participation this morning by the way, and i will give you out erm these reply if you'd like re erm a, an information pack from us, or if you wish to have a chat with me, then you can send in this, you can give it me back at lunchtime, and i can send it into the office, and they'll send you a retirement pack with an income planner and what have you. so if you'd like one of those. does your service offer a service? er, yes it does. erm in that erm er we've got facility to review portfolios. yes. what we're looking at again. yes. well that, that automatically comes up erm if erm you've got which are turning round, and ou our records will automatically show maturity dates etcetera. but i usually arrange with a client over what's seen in two years' time or one year's time, whatever. it's normally down to individual circumstances. are you on the phone?phone ? well yes. i mean you'll find that my home number's on here and tha because i will advise you from home during the week, i'm quite happy for for people to phone the home line. er but erm obviously i'll sometimes need some time to get back to you. oh sorry. right can i have your attention please. last week if you remember i was talking about the primary concern of the state, a concern er which is paramount is a concern for its security and i said if you remember that there was an approach er toward the study of international politics called realism which stressed the importance of what has been termed the power security hypothesis. and if you remember i said that, because of its concern for security, the state creates a capacity for violence in the world of states, its, its environment and since this is er erm a characteristic of all states, however large or small the resources, they all create this capacity, they all have a defence policy er there is a consequent competition and this competition, far from resolving the problem of security, in fact exacerbates it, it makes it worse, and so states find themselves competing at different levels er competing particularly in the creation of military capabilities and the consequence of this is a more or less sustained and permanent arms race which frequently er produces armed struggles and war. now this er capability is not solely designed er for the protection of the state, the defence of the state. that, that is its primary function, that's its primary purpose, but it has a secondary purpose as well it is concerned for the pursuit of what are now termed er in the jargon sub-strategic objectives. that is er objectives which are not directly concerned er with the safety of the state er but with, with er certain of the state's needs a as a state er defines them. er and so er although in security struggles in the event of war we find er that these wars tend to become total wars, and we've had two of these in the present century, historically speaking in recent times we had another one, anyone know what it was? mm? a total war? outside of this century? napoleon? yes that's right. the wars with republican france and napoleon lasted for nearly twenty years and although erm er temporary truces and peaces were negotiated, the struggle continued until the overthrow of napoleon and that was, although it was a, a largely european war, it did have ramifications, it brought britain, for example, into war with the united states in nin in eighteen twelve. erm and i suppose you could regard the thirty years war too er as being a, a total war in this sense in, in that the objectives of the war is the crushing of opposition, unconditional surrender. well fortunately these wars are fairly rare except perhaps in, in our present century. er but the most characteristic kind of war er our i is rather limited war a and violence need not necessarily be expressed in the form of erm a formal attack, it can be used of course to threaten or to deter. and so we have a dimension of politics in international politics and within the state which is related to securing objectives which are not directly connected to security using the means of violence. and the sorts of objectives that er these wars are concerned with er may be control over resources, over particular minerals, control over markets con control over trade the acquisition of territory or the recovery of lost territory and ideological or political objectives, objectives which are strictly speaking er to do with the belief system which predominates in particular states or where there's a conflict between states er which have radically conflicting er ideologies. erm the problem for the state in using violence in this limited way is first of all of course creating a capability to achieve by threat or use of violence limited objectives. now this is a problem er because if you don't sharply define your objectives and if you don't know what you need to achieve them, then you're likely to stumble into the possibility of an uncontrolled war e even into a total war whereas the original objective was not in fact er as serious er as, as er as that. erm in short we're talking here of the concept of rational war. now what is rational war? klausovitz defined this as a commensurability between means and ends. now by that he meant that the ends sought should be closely defined and should not change and the means adopted should be effective and they should not change and the consequence is that adversaries then move into er er conflict but the conflict itself is self-limiting in the sense that one side will accept defeat er and, and the consequences of victory and clearly these consequences are not so severe to the state as to jeopardise its existence. if the means themselves are changed, if the war moved into a total war phase, then of course the security of those states engaged in that contest is immediately threatened. erm a classic example is of course erm the second world war. none of the belligerents intended to fight what was called the second world war, they all entered into conflict, they all began er a rearmament programme with the idea of using violence as a means to secure lesser objectives. now what where these objectives? so far as hitler was concerned, and he was certainly the person who started the war, his objectives were, was to achieve a form of economic autarchy which involved the conquest of, of, of er territory in europe er but which would not push his adversaries to the point of fighting a war of national existence. he really believed that he could do this through, through the form of the blitzkrieg, that is through a limited war er which would secure military objectives and then produce a political peace and the model er for his er policy was in fact the eighteenth century where many wars occurred between european powers wa impo imperial wars and wars on, on t on er total europe, but none of these wars resulted in the destruction of any state. only one state disappeared. anyone know which state it was? mm? poland. yes poland, that's right. poland disappeared for over a hundred and thirty years in a series of partitions erm er between it's ne er er by, by its neighbours and wasn't restored in fact to political existence until the end of the first world war. er so states could re resort to war and these wars were limited. but of course limits are self imposed, they depend very much upon political will as well as upon resources. there were some er structural factors in the eighteenth century which limited war, for example governments could not easily tax erm raising taxes by usually erm er monarchs, by, by er emperors er kings and so on, was not a popular move as the previous century had shown. er people did not, in fact, wish to pay taxes in order to allow erm their rulers to play the game of war and the limited sums of money available for these wars was soon expended so when your cash ran out, then you sued for peace you, you engaged in negotiations. another factor of course er was the fact that no state then could conscript, could, could in fact force people to serve in its armies and so on erm manpower was, was limited. there's a host of factors of that kind which in fact kept the er conflicts to a minimum i in terms of their extent, in terms of the, the damage they did. frequently generals thought it best if they were outmanoeuvred to in effect accept an honourable surrender er and er bargains of this kind occurred from time to time between largely mercenary armies. well what happened to change in fact this er notion of limited rational wars with the means, ends in balance etcetera, the kind of, of erm halcyon days if you like to which klausovitz wished to return? well the french revolution occurred and what the french revolution did, it transferred hus a huge assets to the, to the, the er government, it allowed conscription, a people's army and it also turned the biggest country in europe er biggest with the exception of, of tsarist russia, er into a, a war state. if you remember the attempt, the first attempt to overturn the revolution came from outside, it came from invading foreign armies and this gave them a hell of a shock, the re the revolutionary government. we had the terror and then we had a series of successful wars which put france as a dominant power in europe and brought inevitably er its neighbours, er those that were able to fight, into a permanent hostility. in other words we have modern warfare first make its appearance. now the assumption that erm napoleon made about the future of europe was europe with france as the leader and this is an assumption which challenged directly the political integrity of all the other european states. consequently that war or series of wars er was a total war. equally in nineteen fourteen when er the kaiser invaded belgium he made a direct threat towards british security. as i said last week, he c he er made it appear to the british that he s sought to control the channel ports and with a large navy was then capable of interfering with our trade and in in indeed mounting an invasion, and that brought britain into a war which could not be ended until the germans sued for surrender and vice versa. now the point i'm making here is that security competition creates a capability which is designed to defend the state and that capability comes into direct conflict with non-security objectives which are er supported by threats er of violence. in short the limited war always has the potential to become a total war. i'm speaking here of the period of conventional warfare by the way, this is not the case with nuclear war as i shall show in a later lecture. well let's look at a few examples i'll take the korean war of nineteen fifty to fifty three, the cuban missiles crisis which, although was not an actual war, very nearly threatened a nuclear war, of nineteen sixty two and the vietnam war of nineteen sixty three to nineteen seventy two. now the korean war was a limited war in that the united st neither the united states nor the soviet union wished in fact to fight over the korean peninsula. what actually happened? the whole story is not yet known, although it's claimed that north korea er invaded south korea er i sh i should take that as a hypothesis and not as a fact. however, the event erm was that north korea rapidly er er er conquered most of south korea until the united states decided to intervene. now it used the united nations as its cover and it's fortunate in that the soviet union was absent from the security council and so was not able to veto the resolution which authorized american intervention. now what kind of war was it going to be? the united states got the united nations to adopt a resolution which called for the expulsion of north korean troops from south korea, that was the objective, that was the immediate war aim. how could this be done? it was done in fact by a brilliant military er tactic er and indeed the americans succeeded in throwing the north koreans back over the yalob the river yalob so up to that point limited force had been used to achieve a political objective, the objective was to s s to erm contain communism wherever communism looked like spilling over into other countries, non-communist countries. but then president truman made a big mistake he got the united nations to authorize another resolution which called for the unification of korea erm through united nations intervention and american forces crossed the yalob now the big mistake was this it wasn't of ve of very great importance who governed north er north or south korea, er they weren't particularly important strategic areas, they didn't have er important ports or, or er or base facilities or any resources then erm the mistake was in fact to directly challenge chinese security, and if you looked at a map you'll see in fact how this er came about. as the victorious american troops poured towards manchuria, the, the north korean border with, with china, then the chinese beg began to become increasingly alarmed at the, at the notion of a united korea right on its doorstep. it warned the united states through the indian ambassador to the united nations that if this advance continued, that china would intervene. the united states ignored the warning and the chinese forces then made their successful assault and defeated the american troops very badly, driving them in fact into the south. the war that followed was a stalemate both sides lost enormous casualties and the chinese lost far more than anyone else, but the united states wound up that war with forty thousand american dead and with the only er partial success of managing to ma maintain the status quo in south korea. it was a case do you see of the end itself changing in the course of a war. now what are the means? while the american forces are being defeated, its commander in chief then called for the war to change its character. general mcarthur urged the use of the atomic bomb against manchuria and against chinese targets. so worried was the united states allies that the british prime minister flew er to the unites states, to washington, to er tell president truman that if the united states used atomic weapons in that war, then this would seriously affect the alliance, the, the nato alliance. in other words we were, we were considerably concerned about the extent of the war. now you can see what would have happened if mcarthur's advice had, had been followed. the original objective was to liberate south korea, it then began to unite korea but if you raise the objective to an assault on china proper then, then you would have to quote general ridgeway, who was a commander on the spot, er you'd be fighting the wrong war, the wrong time and in the wrong place. what would be the purpose of that escalation? and the answer was nothing unless you actually wish to attack china and er defeat china through military means and the task of doing that of course was enormously out of proportion to the original er cause of the war. er the cuban missiles crisis. now here you had a very different situation because the nuclear dimension was now starting to become very important. the erm onset of that crisis was the attempt made by the soviet union to emplace erm medium range missile bases on cuba. and president truman, sorry er president erm kennedy er a democrat, it's democrats that always seem to get involved in these kinds of wars as, as was the case in the vietnam war, erm er president kennedy in fact took this to be er a radical change in the strategic balance and th this is the way the crisis was represented. but in fact the problem was the position of castro and of the communist regime in cuba. the er soviets claimed that, that these missiles were not offensive, and indeed the weren't offensive. the united states had the same sort of missiles in italy and in turkey and, before this crisis had developed, president kennedy had in fact ordered them er to be er er returned to the united states, these missiles had no strategic purpose at all because a major change that had come into the strategic equation was the arrival of the intercontinental ballistic missile, and it was these missiles, really, which held the strategic balance er and were to change in fact radically both international politics and global strategy over the years to come, but i'm going to talk about that later, the point i'm making here is that er khrushchev claimed that the missiles were there in the event of an american assault on cuba, they were a deterrent weapon in exactly the same way as the defensive deterrent weapons er were d were defensive er for er the united states and for the soviet union. and the context in which this was er argued er was er the bay of pigs invasion of cuba, a c i a american supported invasion, er which er failed very badly but which certainly indicated the american desire to get rid of castro and er khrushchev was asserting in effect that he had as much right to defend an ally as the united states had er to defend erm its allies and in the same sort of way. now kennedy had a dilemma although cuba was in the caribbean, and although the united states had the biggest navy in the world, and the biggest airforce and was easily able to exterminate cuba if it wa if it wished to, it was vulnerable, however, in other areas, in particular it was vulnerable in berlin and it was vulnerable in indo-china. in nineteen sixty one, prior to the crisis, the americans had to face the rather humiliating settlement in laos by which they accepted a communist erm er government, or at least a government which had communist members, erm kennedy wanted to intervene in laos but again was restrained by his british ally, macmillan wouldn't in fact accept er that we should get involved in a ground war in indo-china. er in the case of berlin, the er situation there was er that russia er of course the soviet union could intervene in berlin more or less at will, given that it was a small island in east germany and was always a vulnerable, always, always in a position of being a hostage. so kennedy couldn't act precipitantly, he couldn't simply do what he wanted to do which was to get rid of castro, because if he'd done that then his policy objectives in other parts of the world would be in jeopardy. he couldn't threaten the soviet union directly because the soviet union was a nuclear power and couldn't be threatened er so the course of action he took was intended to be moderate and to secure the objective solely of removing the missiles from cuba, not of doing anything about the cuban government or the regime or anything of that sort. and so they came to a negotiated settlement by which the soviets agreed to withdraw the missiles and the united states promised that they would not interfere with castro again, although from that day to this they have maintained of course their economic embargo. er and here you have a case of diplomacy succeeding er and the spectre of war and possibly nuclear war erm fading out. limits were set in short by both sides on what they sought to do and how they sought to do it and these limits erm weren't self-evident at the time i can tell you because the american military, the chiefs of staff on the executive committee that discussed this an and took the decisions, were all in favour of making s air strikes on these bases and possibly er an er an armed intervention and so the military advice here er was er was rather similar to that of mcarthur's, that is turn the, the crisis into er a different kind of crisis, turn it in fact into a war. now thirdly the vietnam war, now this was perhaps the most harrowing war the americans ever got themselves involved in and has had deep and permanent effects upon american policy making to this very day. now what were the limits so far as the vietnam war was concerned? well initially the united states genuinely believed that with a small force, perhaps about a hundred thousand, maybe two hundred thousand troops, but principally using air power, that they could prevent the north vietnamese from helping the vietcong in the south and thus continuing the civil war. now one can make judgments about means and indeed as i was saying in my last lecture, the actual capability of the weapons you have can only really be found out when you use them and then you can see, very often, that they are in fact ineffective. now wa the, the erm war began with operation rolling thunder and this was erm er president johnson's plan er to pound major targets in north vietnam by aerial bombardment and make, make the cost of their intervention in the south very high, so high that they would cut off the umbilical cord and starve the, the vietcong into submission through ground operations in the south. that was the basic plan. he started off, as did truman, in the united nations by trying to get the security council to adopt a resolution er calling er the north vietnamese aggressors and authorizing er an american, i e u n intervention. this failed. it failed because the french and the british were unhappy about supporting such a move and indeed the united nations looked very likely er er to be more erm willing to condemn the united states than it was to condemn north vietnam but the view of most countries in the world at that time was that north viet that north and south vietnam were part of the same country, that the geneva accords in nineteen fifty four which called for unification should be upheld, and that the united states was interfering in, in a south east asian country for no good reason. so it is a hostile atmosphere and so hostile was it in the united nations that the americans decided to cripple it, and what they did was to invoke erm an article which called for the removal of votes from those states who were in, who were in arrears in the payment of their dues, of their, their funds and there were several countries in that category, two of them the soviet union and france, and the reason why they had not pal paid their dues was because they objected to the use of the, these funds for peacekeeping forces which had not been authorized by the security council, in their argument the security council was the, the supreme authority and the general assembly had in fact not the right to authorize er peacekeeping activities and indeed, if you read the charter, this is the case although legal advice is conflicting on that point as it usually is. erm well the solution to that was to hold the meetings of the general assembly, where the hostile american majority was, but not to permit a vote to be taken on any resolution and this meant that president johnson could pursue his, his then secret plan of bombing the north without any hostile united nations resolution being passed against it. two years later the americans quietly dropped the whole issue and the, the un returned to normal but by that time of course the situation had become what it was, er er a war. well limits then, so air, air, air bombardment and the use of some ground forces but principally to, to get er the south vietnamese army er to contest er the vietcong on the ground. well that failed as you would imagine it to fail if you take the civil war in vietnam as being in effect a, a war of national liberation, as the soviets called it, because what the north vietnamese wanted was in fact national unity. they were fighting for an objective which was far more important than local arrangements or local agreements er with er foreign imperial powers about who governed what er in, in their own country. and so they were prepared to go on taking the punishment, taking the cost because their objectives were,ha had a different scale of value to the objectives sought by the united states. two or three years later with half a million troops they are still no further forward in their struggle in vietnam and the cost this time was to the united states' political system because the effect upon domestic politics was fairly severe. after the north vietnamese revealed that they were able to sustain erm a w er their war in er erm the south it seemed regardless of what, what the united states could do to them, er after they'd revealed this in the tet offensive of nineteen sixty eight, then president johnson announced he would not be standing for re-election, and that was a significant admission of political defeat and if you remember, well you probably won't remember but you certainly should've read about it, president nixon was returned with a, a majority er er on the platform of ending the vietnam war. the casualties i think were something like fifty, fifty seven thousand dead and a very very large number of people wounded because of the particularly beastly kind of war with all kinds of weapons being used. now why was the united states defeated and was this war a rational war? well the objective was the maintenance of a friendly regime er in a country which had become part of the american sphere of influence. no one however at the time questioned why it was necessary to do that. what was the significance of keeping south vietnam in the american fold? no one asked that question, they simply focused upon er the, the communist insurrection in the south and the american, american commitment to the global containment of communism meant that they had to go and do something about it and domestic political pressures were there too er president kennedy came out of the cuban missiles crisis a hero because his people mistakenly believed that he'd won a foreign policy success and that he'd acted in a restrained and statesmanlike manor. well regardless of the hyperbole and the rhetoric, in fact it was an american defeat er he had to accept the existence of a communist regime in cuba and to keep his hands off it. now in the case of vietnam, a decision had to be made to intervene or not to intervene. if they'd not intervened er then indeed the consequences would certainly have been a communist victory so the intervention was necessary to maintain that policy position. what limits would be placed, and kennedy was very acutely conscious of the big mistake that truman had made in korea in, in fact, seeking to extend the intervention and bringing china into the war under no circumstances must china be allowed to take that step in the case of indo-china. now this meant that the neutrality of laos and cambodia, er the main er route, the main supply route er from china, the, most of the weaponry incidentally came from the, the soviet union, china provided the facilities er so under no circumstances could the americans intervene there, nor could they cross the demilitarized zone in force and erm invade north er vietnam as they had done with north korea previously. now these limits were fatal, they believed that they could win the war through air power and they, they couldn't and the ground casualties, although fairly slight, when you think of it fifty thousand people killed is not a bi a large amount in a major war, far from it erm although erm militarily not that significant, politically they were devastating because people in america started to ask the question, what is this war for? er and this of course er became er er a major domestic political crisis as well a difficult military situation, a difficult one to win. now the points i'm making here, firstly we have the problem of separating security from non-security er objectives. we have the problem of defining and keeping er established limits so that the pursuit of a non-security objective does not lead you in to directly erm having to er fight a security war or a total war. now it's true that since the second world war all wars have been limited in one sense or another, but then comes the question, if you do, in fact, succeed in defining objectives er and de in defining the means to those objectives, how can you know in fact that you possess genuine capability without putting it to the test, without actually fighting the war and then finding that you cannot win it? you can't win it by changing the parameters er if you do change the parameters of course then you'll be fighting a different war and your objectives then become different. erm the problem of limits then erm is paramount when yo you're contemplating threatening or using violence. think of the present problem with bosnia there isn't a single er advanced industrial country that wishes to get engaged in ground warfare in yugoslavia because there would be simply no point in it and any casualty er would be seen as a waste, as a throwing away of resources and you'd have many casualties it's argued. it's argued that you'd need at least a force of eighty thousand troops, that's in bosnia. erm well why would you er get engaged in a, a contest erm with er the three warring factions, because you certainly wouldn't be able to con confine yourself to one, and since there's no national interest as such, i know there have been many attempts to link er bosnia with er peace in the world generally or with world order, in fact there is no threat er this is a civil war, strictly speaking, and th there's no evidence that it would er sp spill over into a major war unless it was made a major war er by those er with the er forces that exist. erm so how then do you stop the fighting? how do you secure order? and we now have got the first step er sorry not, not strictly speaking, the first steps of course were economic th that we had a strategic embargo and an economic embargo er on er on the serbs and er on, on the er the, the different regions er th the first military step however is air strikes and we'll know er within a week i think whether in fact this step will be actually taken or whether the threat is sufficient to induce er the belligerents to come to a negotiated settlement. it's a fairly low risk erm threat at the moment, air strikes are cheap er they're not particularly dangerous whether they're effective or not is another matter, er and there's no immediate come back on the domestic scene because no one is expecting any one state to be the saviour in that particular situation. er the united states er in, in short, the, the principal er actor here er is immune from criticism because if these strikes fail it's simply er bad luck, erm there's no cost to the united states that can be translated into the domestic er arena and made dangerous to the incumbent president. er this tells us that domestic political considerations are very important in deciding whether to use er violence or whether to threaten it or, or, or whatever erm so there is er er a domestic political dimension to this which is well worth examining if you wish to understand the limits that actually exist on politicians' powers. erm secondly erm if you do get engaged in a contest, the consequences of failure should be weighed before you actually get involved. in short if you er ta er taking er kennedy's decision over vietnam, if he decided to do nothing, this would have been very damaging to him politically because of the declared er policy of the global containment of communism and the expectations of his domestic public that the united states would take action to defend the free world wherever the free world was challenged without much questioning about what the free world actually was, i mean the fact that er er south vietnam was run by a rather squalid dictatorship was neither here nor there erm so erm you have to er evaluate when you're contemplating er actions of this kind what failure would mean in domestic political terms. now mrs thatcher certainly did this er when she authorized the falkland expedition. the consequences of failure there wo would certainly ha have meant her removal from office erm however she did calculate erm that within the limits she set that success would be,wo wo would in fact be the result, and it was. it was a strictly limited operation. the argentinian mainland was not threatened, er the major erm influences in the region were placated, particularly the united states. the, the force levels were added, were sufficient given the inability of the argentinian government to reinforce er the falklands once the action had begun and again the equation of air forces etcetera were, were evaluated. i think she had a fair amount of luck, but luck is always an el element in anything of this kind. erm the demonstration effect of failure should also be considered, that is if you fail once you've undertaken an enterprise, this will affect your other policy objectives too, that is er you will be seen to be weak, your commitment to intervene on behalf of other allies might be seen to be, to have weakened er and, and generally you, you might have done your, your overall foreign policy stance er some, some considerable damage. erm the world is indeed inter-related erm we are talking in strategic terms of a multilateral er er erm system just as we, as, when we come to the later lectures we will see, as is the case with economic relations. what a country does in one part of the world reverberates throughout the system. er there are interests all over an and some er have a higher value er er and some have a lower value but they are all related erm so it's not possible to regard er a contest solely as an isolated advers adversarial struggle where you're weighing up the rel the relative forces, the relative military capabilities that exist, you have to consider a whole range of political, economic and strategic effects of, of your, your, your action. erm anoth another example of a successful war was of course the gulf war. now here again calculation of forces er and er the, the er er conduct of operations was in fact strictly limited. the iraqi armies were not pursued into their own country, er the attacks made were largely erm the fairly cheap and as we now know fairly ineffective er air strikes and that the main contest was in fact over kuwait which was indeed the declared objective er of the whole operation. in fact the erm er the, the actual agenda was far more to do with the price of oil than it was to do with er who ruled kuwait. erm but the point there is that restraints were observed. bush said this will be no vietnam and he well understood and everybody else well understood what he meant by that. erm the limits, the means, the ends were held in a commensurable relationship and so we have an example, if you like, of a rational war, a war in which the objectives can be er successfully attained er without them changing er and the means held. well that's as far as i want to go with this, this particular topic, erm as is my practice i'm ending now so that we can have questions. erm i'm ranging over a lot of what for you perhaps is historical material, given your age, but er you're probably not very familiar erm if you want to ask questions about er detail or whatever please feel free to do so. there are a number of books on contemporary world politics and you've got some recommended er for you to read. who'd like to ask me a question? cos i'm not recording this for myself, it's for a, a publisher who wants the department's lectures on tape for some reason. before we start this morning i'd just like to make one brief announcement er one of my colleagues has asked me to announce er a lecture to be given on thursday at five fifteen, that is er directly after the second systems lecture of the week, erm on the title of the transition from totalitarianism to democracy, changes, challenges and opportunities in the former soviet union and it will be given by the baroness of queensbury erm and that's er at fife fifteen, one four one in this er in this building. thank you. this is the first of er two lectures on the american presidency and erm i want to begin just by putting the presidency in, in context erm thus far i hope it's clear that the american pol political system is one in which authority is firstly limited by the constitution in which authority dispersed by the by virtue of the separation of powers. we know that the congress has the legislative power but the president has a veto. the president, according to the constitution has the executive power that executive power depends to a large part on the willingness of congress to provide the legal framework moments in which there is harmony and cooperation between president and congress tend to be exceptional rather than er a regular feature of the american system and if er the president manages to get something through congress, you can bet that very quickly the president will face some defeat in congress shortly thereafter to remind the president that the united states does not have, contrary to the popular press, does not have a presidential system of government. and what has happened over time is that, in the twentieth century, with the advent of two world wars, with the impact of the worst economic depression that the world's ever seen, with the rise to global dominance, both economic and military, indeed one might say culturally, the rise to global dominance of the united states, the scale and er scope of the u s executive branch has grown and with it an increasing er attention and focus on the presidency. that's understandable and to some extent justifiable but if it creates the impression in anyone's mind that the u s has a presidential system of government er then they would be sadly mistaken. the am american system is one of, as i've said, a dispersed, limited and shared form of authority and the president is but one actor, and in reagan's case not a very good one, in that particular er set of arrangements. okay i think what we've seen in american politics in the last twenty, twenty years or so is a, an in is er an increasing trivialization of politics the er the mass media, the so called er piranhas er focus on the daily lives of presidents. we know much more about the state of chelsea's teeth than we do about the state of the nation. we know much more than anyone could possibly want to know about bill and hillary's sex life er than we do er about prospects for economic recovery and this has happened to successive american presidents and it happens in part because in the u s the president and his family, and it has been a his so far, the president and his family take the part, not only the part played in england by the prime minister, but also the part played by the monarchy. the president is both head of state and head of government and in that capacity serves to some extent as a symbol of the nation, a focus for loyalty and americans have a curious capacity for er im imputing to whoever wins the presidential election a set of er outstanding qualities. so that every american president is a sort of half breed, a cross between daniel boone and jesus christ and that however corrupt and venal a politician he might have been before, once he assumes the white house it is assumed that he changes. they talk about people growing in office always worried about people who think that forty seven year old men can grow, but there you are. er the, the, the office itself, the trappings of the office transform the man. so even someone as obviously corrupt as richard nixon, people started talking about the new nixon, new nixon the statesman. they stopped saying, you know, would you buy a used car from this man and started talking about him as the international peacemaker. and this means, or this has an impact, this dual role as head of state and head of government, has an impact on what any president can do. because a very large part of any president's time is taken up in the ceremonial, in the ritual, in meeting heads of states from other countries, from opening the equivalents of garden fetes, receiving parties of boy scouts, er and whatever else the queen and her family do these days. er and that means that the president's attention is both diverted from substantive concerns and it also means the president, there's a limitation on the extent to which the president can appear to be partisan. so the president tries to encapsulate the national interest to embody the common good and he puts forward policies, not in any spirit of er personal or partisan advantage, but simply for the good of the nation. and so you have then a political system in which you, which you have a presidency er faced by a powerful legislature, a president who is not part of legislature but who has to lead the legislature without any significant controls over it a very difficult and demanding task. erm one of the best known commentators on the american president, a man called richard newstat er who's occasionally known as mr williams because he's married to er shirley williams a clapped-out social democratic politician of er yesteryear, erm richard newstat once said, well once said many things but er on this particular occasion said that er if you want to know what presidential power is, it is simply the power to persuade and that er when you look for er an american president what you need to look for er is not somebody who is clear minded, far sighted and so on but you need somebody who has the capacity the skill, the talent, to persuade other people to do what he wants them to do. it has to be persuasion because he has few, if any, powers of coercion unlike the british prime minister. okay well if we look into the development of the presidency what we've seen is a gradually changing conception of the office. er i said i think in the first lecture, the founding fathers saw the presidency as a check, as a control on the legislature er and er in periods of crisis legislatures find it very difficult to respond. any group of five hundred and thirty five people find it difficult to agree on a common purpose or a common decision and increasingly, in period of crisis, attention turned to the presidency and presidents were not always willing to supply the leadership er that er the country expected. erm presidents of the nineteenth century very often took the view that the president was not much more than a sort of constitutional monarch, er a dignified part of the constitution to use er bagehot's phrase. erm in the eighteen fifties, in the years immediately preceding the american civil war, the er then american president er was placed under great pressure to do something about the increasing tensions and increasing conflicts between north and south but er he declined to do so. does anyone remember the president before abraham lincoln? not many people do. erm his name james buchanan james buchanan was asked to do something about the violations of the fugitive slave law, this is the one that returned slaves back to their owners, erm and buchanan said, i quote wisely limited and restrained as is the president's power under our constitution, he alone can accomplish but little for good or for evil on such a momentous question. after all he is no more than the chief executive officer of government, his province is not to make but to execute the laws. congress alone has the power to decide whether the present laws can or cannot be amended so as to carry out more effectively the objects of law. apart from the execution of the laws the executive has no authority to decide what shall be the relations between the federal government and south carolina, any attempt to do this would be on his part a naked act of usurpation . so you have a very particular view of the constitution, that given by the founding fathers and one which is still in force some seventy eighty years later as america headed towards its most momentous and divisive crisis in its history. now this is a turning point in, in american history and er cometh the time cometh the man and the man in this case was abraham lincoln and abraham lincoln took a rather, a rather different line. and i shall quote to you from er a message of lincoln's to congress in eighteen sixty one and from some of his er private correspondence. if you remember the question that the founding fathers faced was how do you create a government which is strong enough to endure and to defend the nation and defend the country yet a government which is not so strong that it erodes the rights of individuals within it, this is the, the essence of the, the problem of government as, as the founding fathers saw it. during the er civil war abraham lincoln er suspended, unilaterally, without consultation, er suspended the writ of habeas corpus who knows what habeas corpus is? right to a fair trial, any, any advance on that? we must have one lawyer amongst our presence surely. mhm. it literally, it literally means produce the body only you can't simply, well the difference between a constitutional system and er an arbitrary government is that in arbitrary governments people get arrested and disappear, locked up, throw away the key and worry about it the next generation or after the next er military coup or whatever but in a constitutional government there have to be procedures and one of the safeguards of individual liberty is that if you're ever arrested and detained by law enforcement agencies you have to be produced before a court within a specified period and charged with something. there has to be evidence produced to say why you are being detained and you have a chance to, to refute that evidence. er as you can imagine in the circumstances of the civil war the government, the federal government, was much vexed about the question of spies and fifth columnists and people er in the, in the northern states er engaged in sabotage and collecting espionage of, of various kinds so er lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus. there were arrests, people were detained er without trial, they weren't charged with anything but on suspicion of being spies for the confederacy. and lincoln was criticized, attacked for this, that er and he said in response to this the attention of the country has been called to the proposition that one who is sworn as the constitution says to take care that the laws be faithfully executed should himself not violate those laws a fairly reasonable proposition you might think, if your oath says to uphold the law then you start going round breaking the law er something wrong here somewhere methinks. he goes on to say of course federal laws were not being obeyed in the confederacy because they'd rejected the entire panoply of federal laws and lincoln goes on to point out must they these laws and the confederacy be allowed to to state the question more directly, are all the laws but one to go unexecuted and the government itself to go to pieces less that one be violated . so you get the impression here of lincoln talking about an unusual crisis situation in a letter to one of his mates in eighteen sixty four lincoln goes on lincoln goes on to, in his letter to a friend to deny that civil war was fought to, to free the slaves er as a moral crusade, he wants no part of that argument. lincoln says in a letter to his friend er hodges in eighteen sixty four, quote i am naturally anti-slavery. if slavery is not wrong nothing is wrong and yet i have never understood the presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling and i aver that to this day i have done no official act in mere deference to my abstract judgment and feeling on slavery. i did understand however that my oath to preserve the constitution to the best of my ability imposed upon me the duty of that nation of which the constitution is the organic law. was it possible rhetorical question was it possible to lose the nation and yet preserve the constitution ? now here we move in to a bit of plato always be aware of those who argue by analogy by general law life and limb must be protected yet often a limb must be amputated to save a life can you guess what's coming next?but a life is never wisely given to save a limb . pretty acute stuff eh? i felt and this is the bit i like, i, i some i, i used to set this at one point in the examination question and ask people to guess which american president said it i'll read, i'll read it to you measures otherwise unconstitutional might become lawful if indispensable to the preservation of the constitution through the preservation of the nation just, i'll just get the essence of that,measures otherwise unconstitutional might become lawful if indispensable to the preservation of the constitution through the preservation of the nation ninety percent put richard nixon er no one put abraham lincoln er cos he was one of the good guys right or wrong i assume this ground i could not feel that to the best of my ability i had even tried to preserve the if to save james buchanan is essentially the pontius pilate of american politics he says yes these are very acute problems er and very difficult er and i'd like to help but i'm sorry i can't and i really do have to go off and wash my hands now erm and, you know, you carry on and when you've resolved it tell me what you want me to do and i'll, i'll do it. lincoln takes the opposite view, lincoln says here is a crisis the person uniquely placed to deal with major crises in american politics is the president and i, abe lincoln, stand forward and i'm prepared to do almost anything if in my judgment it's necessary to preserve the nation and the constitution. so from a view of the president as impotent and ineffective and helpless you have a view of the president as being er the action man, the crisis manager and it's lincoln's view, the linc lin lincolnian view of the presidency which has survived er an and developed with, with the odd, the odd hark back to a previous, a previous age. and you find successive presidents er claiming some special authority that the constitution doesn't give them but which they, they believe that er a accrues to them by virtue of they're being presidents. one of my favourite presidents, theodore roosevelt, president from the early part of the twentieth century and known as the damned cowboy erm you might be interested to know how people become president erm theodore roosevelt was an arch imperialist and got very excited about the er war with spain er america had a s little brief war with spain at the end of the nineteenth century erm over the possession of cuba, and erm in eighteen ninety eight, and this aroused great patriotic feelings in all red blooded americans and especially in theodore roosevelt and er er roosevelt formed his own company of cavalry called the rough riders and erm roosevelt wore glasses and was asthmatic but he had this group called the rough riders, sort of early kind of clint eastwood stuff, and erm anyway he g he was engaged in the war with spain er and there was one wonderful moment in the war spain in which the spaniards were at the top of a hill called the san juan hill er and er teddy, as he was known, of course he gave his name to the teddy bear, did you know that did you? you learn something every day in these lectures. er teddy roosevelt down at the bottom with the rough riders the guns at the top of the hill, the horses at the bottom of the hill you've heard of the charge of the light brigade haven't you? they were smart guys compared to teddy roosevelt. er teddy roosevelt leads a charge of horses up hill, up hill, into the mouth of the spanish guns smart guy, smart move how did he become president after doing something as fatuous as this? well fortunately the spanish were even more incompetent than he was and what the spanish commander, instead of rubbing his hands at the prospect of er the damage they were about to wreak, he discovered that they had the wrong calibre shells for their guns and roosevelt and the rough riders overran the spanish guns a and teddy roosevelt became a war hero and on the strength of becoming a war hero, he become vice president of the united states, got the vice presidential nomination and in good american fashion the president was shot er by an assassin er and teddy roosevelt became president, so there you are, there's a there's a career plan for you to er to think about. erm roosevelt was er despite the er rather unusual route to the presidency, really rather a good president but he had a, he had a very particular view of the presidency which was one which he shared with lincoln but he took up lincoln's arguments and, and developed it further and i quote from er roosevelt's autobiography, which is rather more revealing than most autobiographies, erm roosevelt wasn't modest i should say in case you, if you wonder when i read you something. he says in the autobiography erm my view was that every president was a and this was a famous phrase every president was a steward of the people, a steward of the people, bound actively and affirmatively to do all he could for the people and not to content himself with the negative merit of keeping his talents undamaged in a napkin curious turn of phrase i decline he says to adopt the view that what is imperatively necessary for the nation cannot be done unless the president can find some specific authorization to do it in the constitution. i did and caused to be done many things not previously done by the president. i did not usurp power but i did greatly broaden the use of executive power, in other words this is the modesty part i acted for the public welfare, i acted for the common wellbeing of all our people whenever and in whatever manner was necessary unless prevented by direct constitutional or legislative prohibition roosevelt suggested that the president subject only to the people of the united states and he identified himself with andrew jackson and with abraham lincoln. to roosevelt the view propounded by our friend james buchanan was narrowly legalistic in which the president was the servant not of the people but of congress and this, to roosevelt, was . so you get, if you like, a development here er of presidential authority and the perception of the presidency both from the point of view of incumbents and from the point of view of the american people and gradually in the twentieth century you get an increasing focus an increasing focus on the presidency as the engine of government, that it's the president who makes things happen, it's the president who fixes things, it's the president who responds to crises and as the crises become more frequent and the crises become more intense so the focus on the president also expands and the buchanan view is now no longer tenable, the buchanan view it's not possible for any president to play the dignified monarch. they like to do it a bit but they really can't sustain it because ultimately there's a, there's a call for action, a demand for action. in the twentieth century er the president who did most to, to develop the office further was, was franklin roosevelt, theodore's cousin er and franklin roosevelt, who became president in, in the nineteen thirties and the time of the great depression, and remained president for, till nineteen forty five so he was president for thirteen years er and his political opponents were so upset by this that they actually amended the constitution afterwards to prevent any future president from serving more than two terms of as president, so eight years is the maximum that anyone can serve as president. roosevelt served for thirteen years and led america through the depression, into the second world war and emerging at the other end as i've got a prop tonight this is it! it tells me on the packet that stopping smoking reduces the risk of serious diseases. actually, i've got another one here with a different motto, this one says er, smoking can cause fatal diseases. well! i mean, i've seen lots of people doing this and er they're not dead yet, so, here goes! actually, hang on! i haven't, i haven't asked the people here whether i'm allowed to do this? erm, may i smoke? well let's put it to the vote? button one for yes, button two for no. well, this er hundred women are divided, but the majority, sixty two say no i may not smoke. so i'm not going to. i wonder why erm i wonder why you said no, those sixty two of you? why did you say i may not? yes? three years ago the independent scientific committee for smoking and health declared that there was a ten to fifty percent increase in the risk of lung cancer and respiratory diseases for non-smokers who became passive smokers. and therefore, i would rather you didn't smoke. because i might affect you? yeah. up there. i find it unpleasant and it gives me an allergy so i'd rather you didn't from my point of view. even at this distance. yes i i yeah, so so you're thinking of yourself? a no one 's thinking about me yet! but never mind! up there. do you actually smoke yourself? do i actually smoke myself? aha. listen i i ask the questions here okay! who el , who else said no i may not? you you you yes? you have the right smoke yourself and pollute the envir environment but not mine, i'd rather you didn't! aha. yes? i wear contact lenses and it annoys my eyes. yes. i just feel you can smoke in the privacy of your own room, car, whatever. yes? i feel you can't smoke because you're gonna blow up beds in my hospital ward. mm mm. right! anyone else? yes? my doctor says i've to avoid smoky environments okay. it's affected my throat. can i ask the thirty eight who said yes i may, why why you said that? why you voted that yes i may? well i smoke myself so i believe that i've no right to tell anyone else not to smoke. okay. who else? well i was i'm yes? the scottish representative of forest, which is a freedom organization for the right to enjoy smoking tobacco. mhm. and while i can understand certain people saying that yes, smoking irritates my eyes, my nose, and yes, they're quite right they are entitled to breathe erm u u unsolid air, if yo if you want to put it that mhm. way, but we do believe that there should be accommodation in most places, for most, that we should have designated areas mhm. for smokers and non-smokers wherever possible. mhm. let me just check who, what the the the representation of this audience. no close-up vote, so you can vote er, you can tell the truth here. are you or were you a smoker? button one for yes, and button two for no. and amongst this hundred, forty nine say yes, fifty one have never touched the evil or the enjoyable weed depending on your viewpoint. do you smoke now? button one for yes, button two for no. and twenty six, that's just over a quarter of this hundred smoke now. in scotland, er, in nineteen eighty eight the official government statistics that thirty seven percent of adult women smoked. about thirty percent of fifteen year old girls smoke, which is a very depressing statistic! erm, the numbers are coming down, but they're coming, er but in fact we have among, among the highest smoking rates among women in the world er, with consequent effects on people's health. ye , you're concerned, you're worried. you better say where yo , who you're from, alison. er, i'm the scottish director of ash. which is which is? action on smoking and health. right! yes? i think i smoke purely out of now, more than anything else. i've smoked for over fifteen years, and it has become, it's something to do with my hands and i think that's what it is with me. have you ever tried to stop i have stopped erm, i stopped once for well over a year and er, i went back to smoking shortly after the death of my mother, who incidentally, died of a smoking related disease. mhm. but that didn't stop me going back to it. , i've been smoking since i wa twe , since i've been twelve and i just canna stop and i think it's disgusting! and it's all i've got. i just have a cigarette for, to keep you calm. have you tried any other erm i've tried that chewing gum you get but it still didn't stop me. behind you. if i don't smoke, i eat.. that's why i smoke, i think ! my weight is bu , erm heavy enough! so you've tried, not smoking and i did stop smoking for three months and then with everyone else around us, i mean i was putting on weight and then i went back to smoking. but i enjoy smoking. i found the opposite! i smoked for twenty seven years, and erm i'm getting on to a year now since i stopped smoking and i feel a lot calmer, i hated being a victim to cigarettes! erm mm. but i never felt confident enough to mhm. to give up and i thought i don't want to fail on my own so i won't even attempt and then i erm i joined this project, and that was enough, i think, to keep me off. mary, you you actually run that project, where do you find your people from? we advertised, in fact, for people who wanted to smoking but could do with a little help, because i really do think that women do need a little help, a bit of support to do this. we had over, over a hundred women in fact, we had a fifty percent success rate, thirty nine, well almost thirty nine of these women stopped smoking and most of them, almost all, showed a tremendous improvement in fitness, in well being, and quite a few, i won't say everyone, felt that i , they were much more relaxed mhm. as smokers but coming on to th the real point of the experiment wasn't to look at fitness, and wasn't just to set up a stop smoking project, but what i wanted to look at was whether people gain weight or not. so we didn't tell them that that was what they were doing, i'm sorry! and in fact a third of our eighty people who were successful sorry! a third of the people who were successful in stopping, didn't gain weight or gained less than a couple of pounds. does that mean two thirds of the people who were successful two thirds did yes. did put on weight? yes. now one has to ask, does putting on weight matter? i mean what do you think? yes? well erm i actually stopped smoking about er, two years ago and was quite surprised at the amount of weight i put on in about five months, which was two stone, which i didn't think i'd deserved! er, i could taste better, but i didn't think i deserved erm er, two stone. anyway, er i fell pregnant into the bargain, at the e end of the pregnancy weighed fourteen stone and purposely started smoking again mhm. to get the weight off! in mhm. six months was down to the two three pounds under the weight i was when i started. but that took about two years by the time, i purposely started smoking to keep it down. amanda? yes. erm, i think on that, that that we must remember that cigarettes are a drug mhm. erm, and there are two aspects, that they can a stimulant and whilst i'm, i would agree that many women, it is part of dealing with problems in their lives, coping with stress, that part of that is also withdrawal symptoms from the nicotine, and mm. we know, from research even amongst very young girls who only smoke a few cigarettes a week, that when they try to give up they get withdrawal symptoms, and so having a cigarette erm helps them mm. cope with that. can i just point out, also, on the weight thing mhm. you said is it, is it er a concern? mhm. it's a concern for the tobacco industry, because right from the days they started targeting women, earlier on in the century, the slogan was reach for a lucky erm ma , not for a sweet. and, we've seen through their advertising in targeting women that they've tried to post the image if you smoke, you're more likely to be slim and slender. anne? yes, but beating, i smoke sixty cigarettes a day and i wouldn't care just now, if i went up to twenty stone! if i could stop smoking, i would stop! have you tried going to one of these groups or clinics, or i've had, i to myself, yes and it did nothing. nothing at all. will you try again? i could try again, yes. well, would you like to? for health reasons, yes i'd yeah. to. sue? i think part of the thing about stress isn't so much whether it's a chemical effect, but it's a having a cigarette is a way of creating a wee break if you're if you're busy and as a, that can be really difficult for women to do, actually demand a bit of time for themselves. mhm. you know, even if it's just five minutes, but it can actually, you know, you sit down, you have a you have a cigarette and that's a way of making a break that you so yo that you wouldn't be able do otherwise. so you're using it as an excuse? yeah. yeah. joan? on the lighter side actually, my husband, and my sister-in- law and brother-in-law used to smoke, and i got very cute to this, because i sa , noticed that they stopped working every time they had cigarette but i didn't get the break! so i said, okay, i'm having a cigarette break now. and er this was this is fairly true! you mm. do stop, well you wind down. i find that when women start smoking it's normally in bike sheds, behind the back of the school, it's a communal thing. it's mhm. just to be one of the crowd, one of the in-crowd, and once you've started it's very, very hard to stop. mhm. i used to smoke at school, but i don't smoke now, i've not smoked since i left school! but you felt it was addictive? oh very much so! aha and how did you break the addiction? i threw them in the river! that was it! no more! yes? i work in a school and i know that the, the pupils, they do smoke, they start to smoke, you know, like in first, second year mhm. and er, they think it's a, a cool thing! you can tell the kids who don't smoke from the kids who do smoke, they do have an attitude at that age and it mm. at the beginning, i don't think they like it they just smoke, and then obviously it becomes it's a drug and then, you know they can't get off it obviously and le mm. it's no longer a cool thing, it's a problem. mm. but there still is amo , amongst kids, some kids it's it's smart to smoke whether oh yes! you're defying authority or behaving like a grown up or oh yeah! and they talk about! you know, they like to tell you that they smoke. they like to they like to let know that they smoke yeah. cos as you say, just defying. yep. sarah? yeah, erm i er, i'd given up erm about se seven weeks ago, and i was told that it was an anti-depressant and when i came off the cigarettes it was just terrible! you know, all these emotions and anger and various other things. yeah. you know, it's but you're sta , but you're staying off? well hopefully! well hopefully ! yep. yeah. mary? if i go, if i could just to, to bring go , right back to a point you made much earlier coming off is exactly as you've described it for most people mhm. what i most often heard when i phoned people a couple of days in was that it's been the worst two days of my life! mhm. mm. now, a lot of people got to the one month happily, the thirty nine, but only fifteen out of these thirty nine made it to six months. now, i think staying stopped is much more, not much more difficult but just doesn't receive the attention that it deserves mm. and i don't, i think a lot of that is weight continuing to mhm. go on, like the mm. lady because mm. the the original, the first weight gain, the first week ten days is bad enough you only gain two or three pounds but it's all going round your tummy mm. your waist, your waist disappears, your jeans don't fit, your skirts don't fit. after that you know, the fat just keeps on going! it's right! very distressing! moira? i used to smoke, but i just stopped smoking altogether yep. and that was about seven years ago, and i won't smoke again. right. i found it, when i stopped smoking my clothes a smelt! yep. yep. yeah. there was a terrible and i aha. think there's a stigma attached to smoking now. it's an anti-social habit. right. lindy? i think it would be helpful for people who smoke erm, to to think about just how very powerful a drug it is, because i know there have been studies done which show that it's actually more difficult to stay off cigarettes than it is to stay off heroine. there ar , more people lapse to cigarettes. mhm. erm, and i i , i think people quite often feel very bad when they try to stop smoking, i i ha , used to smoke about forty a day and i've now succeeded in stopped for about four years, but i know that i did have several failures and whe when when you try to stop and and fail you feel extremely bad and low and depressed about yourself, and people probably need quite a lot of support. okay. well, there's a number of things there i'd like to follow up. can i first of all nail this health thing because er, near the start anne said that th th , the court is still our, opinion is still divided on just how bad for you, for instance, passive smoking is. erm, would anyone like to, to give er, the final word on er, what the present view on on er, the dangers of smoking and the effect of smoking on your health? yes? i don't think that there is any doubt that we have known for more than thirty years that smoking is associated with er ma er, fatal diseases and er not just fatal disease but, diseases but very debilitating diseases. mhm. the interesting thing is that it doesn't seem to influence our particular habit-forming er, take-up rates, and it doesn't influence it because there is this lag period between starting smoking and developing lung cancer or developing heart disease or developing verofa ves vascular disease. mhm. and it is very difficult to influence children e , who are starting at the age of ten to fifteen with threats of lung cancer at the age group between fifty and sixty regardless of the horrors that you can describe to them. i mean, lung cancer is not a curable disease. you work with, you're a consultant working yes. with people who have yes. lung cancer? and i think that even patients with lung cancer find it impossible to smo , stop smoking that is, perhaps, not so important, but what is much more important is that their families find it impossible to stop smoking! and that is something that to me, is very difficult to understand. now i, that sounds like a cancel of despair, at least coming from,fo , from your view point, if there's nothing to be said to dissuade people, and i'm sure you could if you wanted to give us horror stories, and scare stories mm. but you say that's not effective? no. it's not. i think what we have to do, and and there are people here that will probably know much more about that tha than i do is pro pro produce strategies which are much more socially and peer pressure group and acceptable to prevent youngsters from smo , from starting. we have heard, for half of this programme how mm. difficult it is to stop and how people are feeling vulnerable about trying to stop we've got to su su ,sto sa sa stop them starting. well we've also heard the the the, the paradox that, as moira said, there's a growing stigma now attached to people who do smoke mm. but that it's still cool for kids to start smoking. now, now ah, how do you how you um, er, how do you balance those tho those two different things? alison? i think that it's very important for people who smoke not to blame themselves, it is not their fault they smoke. as we've heard from people in this programme tonight, most of them start when they're children or young adolescents mhm. they have no idea what they're letting themselves in for. and i think that if people who are still smoking, and i think nearly every smoker is unhappy with their habit, if they will remember that and think that they can actually do something for the next generation, it's not their fault, there are people out there, there are forces out there who are forced them to start smoking and who are trying to get the generation to start. i think actually, we need a social, social revolution. it's beginning to happen. mhm. i think we can protect our children much better than we do, for one thing there is a law that says it's illegal to sell tobacco to children under sixteen, that law is flouted every day in a large proportion of the, er the shops in this city and in scotland. er, we by our own views and our own concern could stop that almost over night, there's a lot we can do! we can persuade our government to ban advertising and all forms of tobacco er, promotion. we can actually raise a generation of kids who don't smoke. we know, even those of us who are still smoking know what the, what the problems are, let's get on and do something about it! anne? i think first of all, i think we've go , what we've got to get clear that smoking is an adult pursuit mhm. it is not a pursuit for children drinking is not a pursuit for mhm. children, and neither is sex. so, first of all let me say, it's a matter of choice. mhm. an adult nowadays cannot really say, or even someone in school, in secondary school cannot say that they do not know the dangers of cigarettes. forest has never said smoking is good for you. what we're saying it is your choice, knowing the dangers to smoke or not to smoke. i believe the young, young lady over in the other side, really told the truth, more of the truth than perhaps anyone else she said she liked it. now, i know many pe , persons who have liked smoking but who have to, for some reason or other, maybe raised blood pressure, to give up and they have managed to do it and quite easily, because they have desperately wanted to. but you must want to! mm. it's like eating chocolates, or any of the things you like doing. okay. can i ask you a anne, what your view on advertising is? you say adults should be free to choose to smoke, now do you think the advertisement of tobacco should be permitted? it is at the moment in certain situations yes, i certainly do! there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that by taking away advertising you will, you will er, cut down smoking. absolutely none at all! there is an assertion. i wonder what you think? let me put that to the vote. should all adverts for tobacco be banned? button one for yes, button two for no. they're restricted, as you know, at the moment. and amongst this hundred er, thirty six say no, possibly for the reasons you said. sixty four, the majority in this hundred say yes! there are places that have introduced a ban on advertising. norway is a particularly interesting example where they saw a rocketing rate of smoking amongst adolescents they introduced a smoking ban, er an an advertising ban, and in fact, it's reversed and they , they're youngsters are not smoking at the same rate as as they were. it's really with regard to the advertising of tobacco yep. products and i think we all agree that we do have a responsibility to protect children. and what we do from research is that children who smoke are more likely to smoke the brands that are heavily advertised mm. and we also know that advertising reinforces smoking, it makes, makes people think that smoking is okay. so i think these are two very, very valid reasons why we ought to ban all forms of tobacco advertising. mhm. yes? erm there's another point that erm about choice, erm the speaker over there said that we were adults, we were free to choose mhm. to smoke when it comes to to stopping smoking there is an element there where people don't have the choice to stop smoking, it's portrayed as something you do if you have the willpower. a a , to make it easy to stop smoking you need to have freedom from stress, you need to have leisure, you need to have circumstances mhm. which make it easier for you to stop and a lot of people don't have the choice to stop, if you look at it in that sense. yes? i think another erm aspect about smoking is, i'm not a smoker, but i often wonder if er, smokers feel used by the amount of taxation on cigarettes? er, you know, they're actually paying money to the government every time they buy and every budget day the cigarettes go up. er,th they must feel that erm you know, it's getting dearer and dearer and is it, is it all worth it? mhm. is it worth four hours of oxygen therapy for somebody with a cons er, an airways disease? you put these people on oxygen therapy for days and days and days, they come off and say can i have a cigarette? no, i'm sorry. it's worth every penny to put the tax on cigarettes. another thing about smoking, although nobody's denying it's bad for you, is the fact is that, it's overwhelming the core of women who smoke, who also have worst diets, they also tend to have worse stress, it's used as a very convenient scapegoat. yep. or or catch all scapegoat when there are these other factors involved which are contributing to to health problems mm. because it's a lot easier for a government to say if you stop smoking it'll be alright, than to deal with things like poverty. mhm. th erm, the the other one that came up was erm, er and even anne agreed that er, smoking if you must smoke is is for adults, not for children, now how do you erm, we've we've touched on advertising, is there anything else that might be done to dissuade children from smoking? anne has said that, that giving them th th the grizzliest facts doesn't really impress them. kathleen? i think there are various strategies that you can adopt with children, i think the first and most obvious is work through the educational system, through schools and there's been many excellent school's programmes developed! another method which is becoming very popular is to complement the school work by having smoke-busters clubs for children. the, really, scotland is leading the way! there's actually some very good news on this front and there's now five or six clubs throughout scotland, and the aim to encourage children, obviously, to remain non- smokers mhm. and we do that by communicating directly with them erm, in their homes, and it's proving a very, very popular strategy. you know, the beginning when i said may i smoke? and sixty two of you said no, i mean, are any of you er, do do any of you impose the stigma of being a smoker on other people? do any of you say to your friends, don't smoke? do you say, no you can't smoke in my house? do yo , susie? both my parents smoke, and my sister smokes and i can't any longer be in the same room as them! i,i it used to be something i put up with when i was younger, now, if my parents come to visit i ask them to smoke in the corridor, go out of the door, open a window, something, because i found it affects me so badly! and i would like to find some way of saying to people who do smoke, for instance, even on the top of buses where it's now banned, you know, please don't! but they take it so, so strongly, they become so aggressive that it's, it's almost more trouble than it's worth to to mention it to people. mhm. mhm. i'm er ve very strongly against smoking and if someone comes to my house and asks if they can smoke, i do say no, and i ask them if they wish to smoke if they would go outside. but, i take it a little step further because if i do go somewhere like a bus and people are smoking then i'll actually approach and ask them to put it out. i've done that on trains, i've done that on a tour bus quite recently, and of course the response you get can be very, very aggressive and that's sometimes quite hard to handle but i take the precaution of always checking before i go somewhere that i'm going to, i'm going to be backed up, for example, erm before i go i purchase my holiday, i actually checked with the tour company that they didn't allow smoking on the buses mm. so if i feel i'm in the right and i fe i feel i can impose that upon them. do you think the day will ever come when we don't smoke? i mean, i know that's what glasgow two thousand,we , various people here are er, are hoping that that that smoking will become a thing of the past, do you think, do you think it will? i should ask anne. let me ask you. no. i don't think it will. and i think the main question, and the best question that could be asked to the audience if they really mhm. think it through is that, do we want to live in a country where it is normal to see an advert wi , under the job section saying, no smoker need apply? would we like to live in a country where a blu , er smokalizer, or whatever you would like to call it, is used at the work? not to see if they were smoking at work but even in the privacy of their own home would we like that? as far as the children are concerned, i would say that children, always break the rules! if it's there. if there's a tree they will climb it, forbidden fruits always taste the sweetest. and i think, that the more you forbade, forbid the thing, the more attractive you make it to a child. but maybe you can educate people out of it rather than ban? any, any mm. other thoughts? yes? i'm, i'm interested, i don't think anyone here has suggested the, the draconian measures which you stand to but that's what's happening! erm, i think what we've shown here is, is a, a a shared concern about this, whether we are smokers or non-smokers. a particular concern about young people. mm. kids live in the same world as adults, the advertising, the pressures are there, and i think we , also this important point that it's women's health who's already most disadvantaged, that's women on low incomes with very mm. little support are most affected and we need to er, go back to what kathleen was saying about education, we need to help young girls get self-confidence, more se , coping skills to deal with these pressures, but also, as other people have said, we need to get the government to look at the fact as, that encourage women to keep smoking and address those issues as well. good discussion! thank you all very much indeed! i hope you've heard something that er meant something to you. if you need help i hope you go look for it. if you're all trying to give up good luck! and goodnight. right, what er we're going to do er, today is start er, supply, because we've dispensed with our,of demand we're now going to have a look at the nature of agricultural supply. what i'll do this morning is just give a general introduction to supply response, erm, and then er, on friday, we'll start to develop erm, theoretical models of agricultural supply and response called a nirdel supply and response model. the first thing to note about agricultural supply and response is that it is immensely complicated, alright. i think what we'll do, just start by writing up what we could describe as a sort of theoretical er, supply function. right, so the quantity supplied right, let's just say, as a function of price of x, the prices of other products, y, right, to n, prices of inputs one to n, er, what other things can we include? the number of firms supplying the industry, er, we'll go through these in a bit more detail in a moment, i'll just put them down. size distribution r, technology used in production, t, stocks, weather, er, risk aversion, i'll go through all these later, i mean. the list of possible influences on supply is, is exhaustive, erm, and as a result any models of agricultural supply response tend to be very, very simple, and it's very easy to get a complicated model simply by looking erm, at why, one of these factors, disregarding er, any other, any other of these complications. erm, but agricultural supply is complicated simply by the, the actual nature of supply in that you know, farmer has n, n products that he could produce. alright, he could grow wheat, or he could grow, grow barley, possibly he could transfer into milk production, pig production, erm, so the prices of all those other commodities are going to be important. er, this production of good x, likewise inputs, huge variety of inputs used in agricultural production, er, may again, er, will have ramifications on the supply of any one particular good. right, but nevertheless, we can say that if the price of x rises, right, it's likely that the constant of x is going to rise. right, it simply serves its purpose, right, higher prices will mean greater revenue, and if other things remain constant then that means more profit. so we've got, as i say, we could hypothesize a, er positive relationship between knowing the price and er, quantity supplied. however,just to complicate things at a very early level, it's often observed that agricultural products have what's called a perverse supply response, in that there's a negative relationship between prices and output. can you think of a reason why that, that might be the case? why if prices fall, right, should output rise, or might it rise, any ideas? because er, to produce more output you have to have a bigger stock, and therefore the price goes up, so you produce more, decreasing not quite so much, and keep a greater percentage than you did last year, so that for cows, as the price goes up you've got to counteract it again,cows this year, and try to sort of, keep my, get my herd bigger and bigger, and profitable. that's right, so instead of, so if er, say if the price of erm, yes, say, meat went up, erm, so the price of beef, beef went up, you may want to increase the size of your beef herd, how do you increase the price of your beef herd, well you, you don't sell as, as many cows to the slaughterhouse as you might otherwise would, you know, would do, because you want to increase your herd for, for later years. alright, so what's coming now is this idea of time is very important in agricultural supply response. right, if we want to increase the long run output we may have to reduce short run output. okay yes, that is er, very good, very good example. if you think of it the other way when, what happens when a price, when a price falls, alright, if farmers er, assume that price fall will be sustained over a number of periods, then they think, right well in order to achieve the same level of income, right, as i did previously, if prices have fallen, i'm going to have to increase my output. right, the sort of the agricultural treadmill process, this is often referred to er, in that price reductions lead to increases in output as farmers try to maintain some satisfactory level, level of income. and this an argument that's often put forward by the national farmers union, and other agricultural lobby groups, essentially erm, er,, it's saying to sort of er, the european community when they're price setting, look there's no point in you er, reducing agricultural product prices, cos all that's going to do is increase supply. one of the main problems of the european community is over-supply, alright, so they try and use it as an argument, this perverse supply response, as an argument to maintain prices at their current level. alright, now, whether there is a perverse supply response is, is an empirical question erm, and it's generally observed that perverse supply response is about as common as a that we looked at in demand analysis. attracts a great deal of attention, erm, from theorists, but in er, in reality, it's not as common as some lobby groups might suggest that it is. but nevertheless, we don't necessarily always need to observe a positive erm, a positive relationship between own price and er, quantity supplied. right, if we broaden the number of commodities, and recognize that er, farming is a multi-product enterprise, alright, farmers just don't produce one produce, alright, they tend to produce a whole range of products, and therefore we've got to accommodate these inter-relationships between prices of barley, prices of wheat, prices of oil seed rape,s and er, and so on and so forth, and there can be a nu a number of fairly complex inter-relationships er, there. alright, if products are competing, alright, say like wheat and barley, they, they could be, termed competing products in supply, so if the price of barley went up, erm, that may have implications on the amount of output of wheat produced. alright, simply because farmers switch production, alright, away from wheat, into the more prosperous barley. alright, now not all products are going to be, you know, you can't switch with the same amount of ease across all products, there are only, you know, if you are erm, a wheat farmer in the south east of england, alright, you're not likely to switch into milk production just bec just because milk prices have risen. right, you don't have er, the climatic conditions, or possibly even the expertise erm, to, to, to sort of, to switch. alright, so, although there may be some switching possible, it's, that's, the degree of switching won't be the same for, for all er, for all commodities. alright, not only do we have competing products on the farm, but we have joint products on the farm, in that if you rear sheep, sheep are not only used for the meat that they produce, but also the wheat the er, the wool that's on, that's on their backs. alright, so increases in er, say the subsidy on sheep will have impacts on the wool market. okay, but if, as a general statement, if products erm, are joint products in supply, it's likely that there'll be a positive relationship right, between the price of er, the joint product and the quantity supplied of the, of the product in question. right. so we need to know, on what, on what farms are products er, competing or erm, or, or are they produced jointly. okay. something else that's very important there, t, denoting the effect of technology. god, this is really , hello can you still hear me? oh well, right, so technology is very important. the effect of technology is twofold. the first effect of technology is that it increases the productivity of farms, right. most cereal yiel yields, potato yields have risen between two and three percent per year er, in the u k. right, and that increase in production has come about through the use of technology, whether it be agro-chemicals, better seed varieties, more mechanization, technology has increased production per unit of land, alright, per unit of labour. the technology also has the effect of increasing the variety of production methods farmers can either er, rear livestock extensively, or intensively, where the technology for intensive production exists, and if you're not familiar with the technology of intensive say, milk production erm, or, or it doesn't exist, then clearly you won't be able to, to use those intensive tech techniques. you know, you can grow bananas in scotland if you want, the reason why you can do that is that we have the technological know-how in order to do that. okay, we can't really say anything about agricultural supply unless we acknowledge the institutional setting in which farmers er, actually produce food. now, in most countries in the developed world the institutional setting is by far the most important factor, alright, simply because food subsidies and protectionism, er, is er, second to none in agriculture. alright, and policy measures designed to protect agriculture, can have either a direct effect on production or an indirect effect. for a direct effect, well, think about milk quotas, supply and control of potatoes in the potato market, potato quotas, clearly clearly the government is saying you are only allowed to plant a certain acreage, but that will clearly affect erm, farmers, farmers' response. indirect effect is, is through, through prices, in that most erm, intervention in agricultural markets is through er, price manipulation. alright, higher prices mean that in order to increase income, the farmers need to produce more output, right, there, so erm, there's a coupling of support to, to output. right, so the more that you produce, the more in the higher income you'll get, because prices are higher. right. so how do farmers produce more in that situation, well they apply lots of technology. right, they apply agro-chemicals er, and so on, use machinery, etcetera. alright, so although the institutional setting can have a direct effect alright, it's much more likely that the effect will be indirect, right, through, through high prices, and in order for, farmers to er, reap the benefits of support, they need to maximize their yields, and that's what farmers have done in this country. that's why yields have grown so much because there's been a certainty of relatively high and growing prices, and therefore, in, in order to, to maximize their income, farmers are, er, maximizing yields. alright, yield maximization is not a necessary condition for profit maximization, alright, in er, in a free, free market. alright, however, when prices are fixed, it cer certainly is. right that's, we've already mentioned or alluded to the fact erm, that time is very important in agricultural supply. right, and in virtually any agricultural supply response model, we'll need to include time. most agricultural response models er, are dynamic, in that they do incorporate time. why, why is that the case? why do we need a dynamic specification? well, we ought to recognize that if prices are increased there won't be an instantaneous er, change in supply which in inferred from our static models. essentially because there is a erm, a production lag, or a growing season that we, farmers will have to base their production decisions alright, on previous prices. alright, when the supply comes on to the market, you know, it may be nine months down the road if it's an annual crop, if you're looking at something like erm, production of cocoa, right now, a cocoa tree takes about nine years to mature, therefore alright, you're not going to know what prices are going to be nine years down the road, you're going to have to base your production decisions and therefore your output decisions on what prices are nearly a decade, nearly a decade ago. okay, so because there is this production time lag, there is a growing season, right, we need to incorporate time into our models. so that's one reason why we need a dynamic specification. another reason is that farmers are often reluctant, right, to change their output, erm, or adjust their, their output instantaneously, and either un unable, or basically unwilling, and there is psychological resistance to changing the technique of production. alright, if an innovation comes onto the market that enables a farmer to increase his output, alright, if that er, innovations that lies, lies outside of erm, sort of orthodox or traditional methods there may be a psychological resistance to actually adopting it simply because we're a newfangled thing ooh, i, i don't know how it's going to, how it's going to work. they say it's going to increase production, but it may involve other costs. it may, although production on average may rise using this innovation may increase the, the variability of output, and farmers don't like variations in output. it may off it may also take time for farmers to acquire the skills necessary in order to increase, or to use, to adopt this technology. alright, and will give, give rise to a delayed response, so even though prices may rise, farmers' output response won't be immediate, right, not only because of the growing season that's involved, but due, but due to psychological resistance, erm, to the adoption of that technology, and also it may take time to acquire the necessary skills to implement that technology. right,er, okay. other things that might, er, impinge upon the supply response over time, might be things like erm, er, rotations. now rotations are frequently used in agriculture, and if you're locked into a rotation, it doesn't really matter what happens to current price, you're not going to be able to af to change your output, right, because you've got to er, keep into this, in this rotation. you've got to leave land fallow, or erm, you know, you, you can't indulge in mono-culture continuously, or if you do, you've got to be, you've got to manage the soil condition very, very carefully indeed, you can just er, produce a desert if you're not, if you're not careful. alright, so where farmers are locked into a specific rotation, and rotations are quite generally used, alright, they may not be able to erm, change their output erm, until they can change the rotation. alright, a, another reason erm, we could term asset fixity, it's in general erm, fixed, fixed factors, right, erm, or fac factors of production in agriculture are dominated by fixed factors, right. essentially land and expensive capital machinery. okay. so, in the short run, by definition, you can only change output, the response or by changing variable factors in production. changing the level of,agro-chemical intensity, right, possibly er, labour input. alright, but you won't be able to change, the d the, the underlying constraining factor erm, of production, which is the amount of land you have. alright. alright, so, short run supply response is generally much more inelastic than, than long run supply response, due to this asset fixity argument. also, farmers are going to be, because most of the assets on a farm are fixed assets, right, farmers are going to be very reluctant, alright, to cease production just because prices are low for a couple of years. right, economic theory tells us that production will continue in, in the short run providing average variable costs are covered. alright. now, if most of the erm, factors of production used on the farm are fixed factors, farmers may well continue for years and years erm, because although they're not cove covering total costs, or, or total average costs, they are covering average variable costs, alright. the costs of the seed, the cost of chemicals, the cost of casual labour. alright. so even when prices do fall very low for quite long periods of time, alright, farmers will still maintain production, even they're making losses. i mean, you can make losses in the short run, it's rational to do so, alright, where, where a large proportion of your costs are, are fixed costs essentially. i mean if you, in the agricultural depression of the nineteen thirties, that's a depression that lasted erm, the best part of a decade, you know, but farmers didn't go out of production you know, for about five, six, seven years down the line, because virtually all of their assets were tied up in fixed assets. right, they're able to cover their variable costs, alright, but not their, not their fixed costs. and so it took a great deal of time erm, in the nineteen thirties, for farmers to cease production. it did occur because the depression was so er, was so long erm, but by and large, farmers don't go out of , don't cease erm, production just because of a couple of years of er, poor harvests or low, low prices. right, i mean the exceptions to, to the sort of, that general sort of rule of thumb are enterprises where variable costs account for a large proportion of total costs, things like egg production, pig production, they tend to be very short run supply elasticities tend to be very high in those type of enterprises, primarily because most of the costs, alright, are tied up in, in variable costs. alright, you don't need expensive machinery, large amount of land, right, to produce or, or pigs. i've got a number down here, er, seventy percent of total costs of egg production are var are variable costs, and essentially that's the feed, the chicken feed. right again, horticulture is another enterprise where fixed costs only represent a quite small proportion of total costs. alright, in something like horti horticulture, right, the main, the main cost is going to be harvesting costs, the labour, the labour costs, right, and this is why if you go into the er, into somewhere like somerset when there's been a bumper harvest, and just see the fruit rotting on the trees. farmers won't even bother to harvest it, right, simply because, the bulk of it, the total production costs, will be labour, will be the labour costs of harvesting, and if they can't cover those labour costs of harvesting by selling their produce, which they won't be able to if there's been a bumper harvest because prices are very low, they'll just leave the things rotting on the trees and er, that is, that is what, what happens quite regularly in horticultural markets which tend not to be markets that are supported through the common agricultural policy. right,erm so compounding this effect of asset fixity may be erm, the case where a number of similar products, or competing products er, their, their prices fall simultaneously, so if you're, you know, if you're wheat, if you're a cereals farmer in the south east of england, alright, and the prices of wheat, barley, and virtually all, sort of, oil seed rape, anything else that you can use the land for, if they all fall, you know, there's no point in switching production, alright, so you may continue to, to produce, even though the price of the product has fallen, alright, because the prices of all other competing products has fallen. right, and you simply may not be able to switch into milk production or horticulture, because you don't have the technological know-how, or the soil may be inappropriate, the climate may be inappropriate, right, so that's another factor, influencing, well making er, supply quite rigid, quite inflexible in, in the short run. erm, clearly in an in any agricultural supply function, you may want to incorporate the fact that weather plays a vitally im important, important role. how do we incorporate that? i don't really know, it's, it's quite difficult. alright, because the weather, although clearly er, important, is a multi-faceted concept, in that it involves rainfall, sunshine hours, and not only the amount of rain, the amount of sun, but when those things actually occur. alright, i mean, erm, i don't know if you'll be able to see this right , erm, let's just do it like that, i haven't got the overhead with me today. what i've got here is a time series of potato yields over time. right now, potato yields are quite variable, right and erm, not only are they variable, but on this time series of yields you can, you can see the effects of technology. right potato yields are just er, are rising quite dramatically, particularly since this point here is the end of the second world war, and over the last part of this graph you can see yields have risen dramatically. but notice here in seventy er, seventy three and four, is that right, seventy three and four, alright, yields fell, alright, by about a third, well, well over a third in two, in the two years. that was the effect of weather, right. in the first year, right, there was not enough rain, right, in order to swell the tubers, right, presumably the same thing happened in the second year, but no, the reason why er, yields were very low in nineteen seventy four, was because there was too much rain. alright. okay. the weather's pretty complicated to model and er, although it is vitally important in er, agricultural supply, it's very difficult to incorporate into, into models. if it is incorporated, there's usually an index of er, of rainfall that's used. right another thing that we want to er, want to incorporate is risk or un or uncertainty. agricultural production is inherently uncertain. in a free market that uncertainty comes from both erm, production uncertainty, good, good yields, bad yields due to poor weather, or good weather, but also comes from price uncertainty. alright, now farmers are notoriously risk-averse, right, in the face of uncertainty. right, so given a choice between erm, an average, a guaranteed income of say fifty pounds per hectare right if they're given a cer a certain, if that fifty pounds is certain every year, alright, they will choose that every time in a, er, well just yes. a cert certainty equivalent of fifty pounds per year would be erm, would be desired, or chosen virtually all the time, in preference over erm, incomes of sort of zero and a hundred in alternate years. i mean, in the long run their both, they both give the same outcome, alright, but farmers want to try and avoid that variability of income, alright, so they'll much prefer to, instead of having, you know, they probably prefer erm, a certain income of forty pounds rather than erm, an equal chance of getting one hundred pounds or zero. right, clearly that's not erm, profit maximizing. right, however, variability is something that isn't taken into account, right, in our normal models of profit, profit maximizing behaviour. right cos they're static models, alright, there's no uncertainty there. when we include uncertainty, er, we ought to acknowledge that farmers may behave not as profit, profit maximizers erm, but as profit satisfiers, and that's reflected in their, in their risk-aversion. right, now if they're acting rationally, right simply because you have a zero income of say two years on the trot, you may just well be driven out of business, if you're er, a farmer in the developed, developing world you may er, possibly thrown off the land, or you may even starve. alright, so farmers like to er, reduce erm, variability of their, of their income. right. we'll come onto this later, later on, but er, it can be shown quite easily, why farm, how farm, why farmers er, behave what you may, from what economic theory would tell you is, is an irrational manner, alright, and it's simply because they're trying to minimize their, their risks. alright, risk and uncertainty is something that's excluded from most economic models. okay, so they'll always choose options, farmers will always choose options that are, are less risky. and the best way to do that on a farm is to diversify, and this is why most farms in the u k are mixed farms. alright. they grow, they grow a proportion of, of er, some of their land is devoted to crops, some of their land is devoted to, to livestock. so they're all, they're trading off their gains from economies of scale, right, with erm, variability of, of income that may result from sort of, putting all their eggs in one basket, so diversification is the main way in which farmers cope er, with an uncertain environment. okay. erm, right. so we can just, if we have look now at the effect of time on output to supply diagram, okay, in the short run supply will be very ine inelastic. alright, but as you move through time, the supply response becomes increasingly more elastic. right, now let's just say, p one p two, right, prices change from p one to p two in the short run, the change in quantities can be very small. but, due to the factors that we've mentioned, alright, the supply will ex will expand progressively over time, right, so our long run supply curve alright, will become a lot more elastic than the short run supply curve, right, so if you think of our elasticity formula, i over changing quantity over changing price, times price over quantity, right, as we go through time our original, our original prices and quantities are going to stay the same, right, p one, q one, that's not going to change through time, right. if this price change is maintained, and delta p is going to stay the same, right, the only that thing that changes is the level of output, right, which is in the numerator. and as a result, long run elasticities alright, are always greater than short run supply elasticities. the only thing that's changing is, er, farmers' response to a, to a price change. right,erm i think in actual fact, we'll er, we'll leave things, we'll leave things there. i won't bother starting, starting this . right. sorry. oh, er, that was probably something, hang on, er, probably structure of industry or something erm oh, n, that gives n, number of, number of firms supplying the market, you know, perfect competition in the have you got that one? yes, what, i'm sorry, have you got some time on tomorrow? is there by any chance, any tea or coffee? i've got your form here somewhere right. and erm i, it tells me what you wanted to talk about. yes. erm oh that's right. you're third year english aren't you? yeah, that's right. yeah. okay. and er oh you er it's social work you're interested in is it? yes. yes. erm okay. yeah . can i get on a postgrad two year course next year ? mm. you mean to apply now for autumn? yes. i think that's very optimistic really. well, and what experience have you got? not very much. i mean i, i, i took er a gap year out in birmingham working for a church. oh i see. er and what did you actually do? well it was called a discipleship training course erm yes. so a lot of it was teaching. erm but the relevant yeah. bits to this would be erm i ran er a youth group in ladywood which was er central birmingham. oh yes. and er we did a couple of weeks erm teaching in schools and we helped run a erm a lunching club for old people. oh yes. but the, the, probably the relevant thing would be the youth, the youth work. erm yes. y what did you do on the youth work side? well we it was run from a local church but erm mm. the the fairly elderly couple which, who started mm. the work up erm mm. he was ill or something or going away and erm er the church we were working for was invited to take it over. oh i see, yes. and er so we were the kind of erm the team who were there the, at the time so and a couple of us took it on. did you sort of play table tennis with them, or what did you do ? well that i mean that t to get them in yeah that's the sort of thing we started with erm playing pool and er table tennis and that. mm. erm mm. and then we went up to more interactive things. we had i mean you couldn't do that much but it was no. you know a ten, fifteen minute discussion and stuff like that. on what sort of topics? on r on religious topics mostly. oh i see, yes. i mean we did you know stuff like erm er what's the one i did? are, are christians boring. erm you know sort of thing like that. i see . so, so you weren't really doing anything on their sort of personal development or their social problems or, you know, could they get jobs or could they get work or what were the pressures on them, how no. how did they sort of cope with their relationships or anything like that? no. i mean th we did er no. we talked informally about erm their oh. relationships and things like that cos that was oh right, yeah. the sort of thing that cropped up. yeah. i mean there was nothing on a, on a formal level or anything no. like that welfare no. or jobs or anything like that. no. so i mean it doesn't, i mean, i mean the point about social work erm you know doing er some experience is i think so that you actually experience the erm sort of so the, the group dynamics of people who are in trouble and can't cope. mm. and i, that's why i was wondering er how much you did on that front really . yeah, i mean that par apart from the youth and i've done some at home as well erm yeah. the only other relevant not much. thing would be yeah. erm er holiday schools work. oh yes? yeah. which i've done since i was sixteen. mm. erm but that was just group leader stuff really. erm but no i ne i need erm to get on a voluntary placement next year probably. i think you probably but do, yeah. yeah. but erm i don't know what sort of thing wou would get me the best experience . well the thi one thing you could do is go and talk to one or two admissions tutors of the social work courses. i mean there is one here of course. right, yeah. and you could go over to erm the social work department in and try and you know get an interview with the admissions person. mm. erm and say you know, what sort of idea, you know, what would you think would be good experience? i mean i think it might be good if before you did that you could try and explore a bit on your own and, and have some idea but i mean yeah, sure. in a sense, when you've done that, er it's a good thing to check it out. mm. erm well i've, i've got a couple of applications on the go. i mean i've got erm seven, well . but there's one yeah. er erm it was in the church of england newspaper of erm mm. mm. er there's a place in dover which, which'll be a residential thing for a year. ah. erm that sounds what, what sort of er people have they got there? that's, that's erm adults with erm learning disabilities. oh i see, yes. erm or there's, there'll be the other one er mm. i've got contacts with is mm. shad erm working in london with erm a placement with someone with a disability working oh yes? forty eight hours on with them and then forty eight hours off. oh i see. and that's now what's shad? that's single erm i can't remember what no. the exact acronym is. no. what sort of people are there? i mean er erm well there're all sorts of er range groups but yeah. erm it's mostly physically handicapped people. oh i see. yes. erm well it might be good. erm er is er now does that have a religious basis, shad, or shad doesn't, no. no. erm the one in dover does, does, yes. but it's not erm er it was, it's welfare based rather than yes, i see. i mean i, i don't know how you feel about it but it might be a good thing to do something that was not religious based, erm yes , definitely. y you know, just to get in with er a different sort of group of people with different sort of motivations and so on, yeah. erm to show you know you have the broader erm experience. i mean hav have you looked at our alternative opportunities section out there, or erm that's the yellow files. that's the yellow files. yeah. yeah i did i did go through it. yeah. i've taken a yeah. f erm a couple yeah. of addresses down. yeah. but there there wasn't, mm, well there was nothing that seemed immediately er relevant i must say, but no. i mean you've not looked at er a lot of the mental health stuff? i mean er people like the richmond fellowship, or did you, you didn't find them? no. maybe you don't actually, don't want to do mental i don't health, or well, i don't know. erm but mm. i'm not really sure what, what i'm looking for. no. what, do you have any idea what sort of social work you would want to do in the end, or not really? erm well, i had a look at probation which is a a different oh yes? but similar avenue i suppose, yeah. mm. mm. erm but there, there are elements of that which come into social work, i would have thought. mm. erm er young off w work with young offenders or something like that. erm yes. yes. i mean there are broad categories you see in a sense. i mean certainly the social services now divide up a bit. i mean er you know the, the, the erm training is supposed to be a generic training so that you learn the various erm ways of coping with clients you know, and it mm. doesn't matter whether they're ninety five or you know sixteen, there are yeah. certain sort of listening skills and er erm the, the idea that you, you've got to get erm people to look at the things maybe they don't want to look at mm. but in a positive way, and those sorts of things will obviously apply whatever group you're dealing with. but on the other hand i think the erm social work is now going back again to a situation where it's really rather more specialized. mm. certainly i know, somebody i know who works with north yorkshire, they seem to have divided up into the old and the young. yeah. erm so you've either got you know the, the, the sort of or the old people, or you've got the young people, and that reaches back down the age range into things like child abuse which is now, you know, very er much er on the agenda. erm so i mean i think, you know, it might be useful, well, in some ways it would be very useful for you to have erm two sort of six month stints in rather different environments so that then you'd sort of keep your options open a bit. mm. erm if you were interested in probation then maybe you could get work in a probation hostel er you know as, as some sort of er assistant. unqualified helper or something. right. erm which would give you some contact with erm, er you know people who'd er er just come out of prison or, or you know had been serving some sort of sentence or other, you know, maybe not a custodial one or something. erm but that might be interesting. i mean i'm sure if you asked erm you know the probation service people in york, i'm sure they could, well i mean if you're thinking about probation, you probably ought to go in and look, unless you've already yeah, sure. done so, i mean and as part of that you could ask questions about whether, you know there might be some longer-term placement you could do or something. right. erm so i mean that might be worth it. would you do this erm i suppose if you, well i don't know, it depends whether it's residential or not. you you'd be erm quite happy to do residential yes. would you? mm. i think that's good because i think most of it probably is residential. mm. erm and of course you get erm you know a rather more intense sort of experience i think if you do that. mm. erm i mean it's not what everybody wants but erm i think it is quite er interesting. i mean the, the richmond fellowship things are quite interesting. they've got sort of mind you they have their own training sort of regime as well, which in some ways is, means it's quite good experience because it is structured in, in a, in a way to give you some training, whereas of course if you just go in to do a job then erm how much sort of training you get varies a bit . i mean one would hope you got some wherever you went you know, mm, sure. er but sometimes you don't get very much. erm and if there is erm a sort of definite regime then that, that may be quite good. i mean it depends er whether you're in a fearful hurry to start the training you know,t and get erm qualified. i mean erm no i don't think, no i'm not in a fearful hurry. it's just i've, i've done three years at university now and i, i yes . and it's, it's a subject which i've enjoyed doing a lot, english, right. yeah. erm but it's, it's had n you know no vocational direction whatsoever, right. yeah. and erm er i now er now i want to i don't mind training again but it, it's got to be vocational. right. yes. and so erm the, the experience in w the work experience i get now i want to be with a, a definite view to get to, get in training right. yes. in order to get yes. a job. yes i see. yes, what i really meant was i'm, i forget exactly but we could look it up in you know the richmond fellowship file out there, mm. and they've got quite a big place at harrogate where you could go for a day or two to observe what was going on and so on. now i think, if i remember rightly, they had a sort of two year sort of training pattern, right. which you do, and then you're er you know in their eyes you're, you're sort of trained to some sort of level for their sort of work. now that's n not the same thing as the the erm study year you know, the mm. social work qualification but, erm, on the other hand you know it's a structured sort of and therefore you get, you know, there'd be reviews and all this sort of thing, and therefore you'd get something out of it. erm it's just that er and i don't suppose you need to stay two years if you don't want to. i mean if it was working well then maybe you'd stay an extra year and sort of finish it off but mm. erm if, if you know you, you felt you wanted to go off and do th start the professional social work training well that would probably be alright. erm i think too of course the thing about probation to go back to that, mm. is that you have to be accepted by the home office as well as the erm you know particular institution running the course. i d i don't mean that's er er a terribly difficult thing but it is just that that does have to happen. right. er that erm . whe what sort of thing are you talking about? i about past criminal offences and stuff? oh no. no i think it's, well i mean yes presumably. i mean i well don't think they like well i haven't got, well i got stopped no no. for not having my lights yes. on my bike once but er well no i don't i don't think that's too serious . no it, it wasn't really that,i it was erm although i'm sure they do check that. mm. but, well i think they check that sort of thing for social workers don't they? yeah they do, yeah i read that yeah. cos they have to be very careful, especially with this abuse mm. business you see that, er anyway, erm no, i think it's more that the home office want to be satisfied that you're the sort of person who will make a good probation officer. right. erm pardon? right. w er yeah, yeah. i mean er they don't i, i think it's more like an interview you know er really, where they w they will be trying to assess your suitability as well as the actual institution that's going to give you the course. right. so you've got two of these sort of sessions er er to go through, that's really the only point. right. erm and i mean i'm not too sure, you'd probably need to ask the probation people, what specific things they were looking for, but i suppose the probation service, i mean you are an officer of the court, mm. erm which means there is a sort of er disciplinary er sort of element in it. i mean i suppose there is in all social work in a sense, that if you go in to look at a family and, and you're trying to assess you know whether the children should be taken into care, well you're exercising a a sort of statutory erm er sort of responsibility, and as far as the clients are concerned, er if you, like that can sort of get in the way of er er a more human sort of relationship if you see what i mean, because mm. you know, in the one case you're, you're the representative of court the probation erm officer and they know that if they break the probation or you sort of erm do a bad report on them, maybe they've got a suspended or something and they'll, so you know there's a, and, and you somehow have to handle that mm. so that it doesn't alienate the person and, and, and they regard you as a, you know and that's actually probably quite tricky, except of course that you can't just let them off, because you are actually an officer of the court. mm. you see what i mean? and er probably they'd be interested to know how you would sort of handle that. right. erm and er the, i suspect, i mean there are probably as many answers to that as there are probation officers . er but it's a particular problem for probation, you know? mm. erm and the, the social work thing has also something of that. you know, if the erm that if the family think you're going to actually take the child off them because they're not looking after it properly, then i mean obviously they're not perhaps going to be as frank with you as they might otherwise. mm. and you know that may hamper you in really reaching a decision about erm the real nature of the relationship they've got with the child. so you know there are some quite interesting sort of angles mm. erm mm. but basically i think most courses now, not sure there's actually a legal requirement, i don't think it is, but most of them want a at least a year's sort of full time experience in erm, you know,d dealing with underprivileged people really and their problems and people who can't cope for one reason or another, and how er y you can er er sort of help them and what sort of relationship you can build with them and so on, and how mm. you feel about it and all that. and then you can talk about all that in the interview, about your motivation as to why you want to do the job you see? mm. and, and probably you pick up some of the language used to describe this, you know. yeah. but erm mm. er york apparently ask for two years' experience in do they? the postgrad course. oh do they? yeah well you could go and talk to them and see what they what they thought you ought to be doing in that two years. mm. i mean erm well i don't know, would you want to stay here, or er erm i don't know. i mean is it i shouldn't think so. if i, if i was t two mm. years erm yeah. training in between as well as two years' placement or something. yeah. i mean i've, i've very mm. much enjoyed my three years here but yeah,. i think it would be nice to go somewhere new. mm. mm. mm. erm i think one of the things is of course to try and use the placement to sort of check out for yourself erm perhaps what sort of group you want to be working with in mm. in general terms, you know. i mean one of the problems with probation i think to a certain extent is that er obviously if you get these people who keep going into prison and coming out again, er it's really pretty difficult to erm er influence their behaviour positively probably. mm. and that can be a bit depressing, i think. erm whereas you know maybe with the younger people you feel, well at least there's you know more, more chance. erm i think you feel that you've put in more a more positive input . yes. what if y well that's right, yes. yes you know there is a chance still to er get them on a er a route which will give them a sort of positive er relationship to society maybe rather than a negative one. mm. but on the other hand of course you've often got to deal with not just them, but their parents or, or people around them or the people they relate to and mm. you know er e so even, even that can be quite difficult, but on the other hand you know there's probably more, more chance of creating something positive. mm. but i mean it depends. i mean some people actually erm depends what you think of as positive. i mean i, you know some people actually erm quite like looking after the older people, where mm. really i mean what you're almost sort of presiding over is a sort of steady decline, really, but on the other hand i think some people think if you can make that as erm as sort of dignified as you can and actually give them sort of support when they actually need it, mm. then erm that's actually quite a worthwhile, you know some people get quite a lot of satisfaction from doing that. yeah. so it's a very personal sort of thing really, you know which area you want to go into. and i suppose it's not necessarily always the one that you've had experience in so far, you know. yeah. that's true. but i mean the, the mm. i suppose the, the sort of things that made me think i might be suitable for social work have been coming from working with the young. right, yes. yes. erm but you see i haven't i don't know. i suppose in interview, especially with er a c v like mine, that i might come over as quite erm naive yes. and i, i ha i've had a privileged background. you know even mm. the very fact that i'm sitting at university, yes . would denote that. erm but i i want to and i'm not sure where to go from here, i'm not sure no. where to get the contact that i would need. erm well it may, it may be that you, you will it'll be a sort of growing thing, you know? mm. what whatever you start with, that'll, that'll give you another erm er sort of experience. i mean i think that's why in way it, it would be good to go outside the religious context, because then you'll come up er y you er you know you'll meet people who have a er a rather different motivation yeah. to your own, but you'll be, you'll understand it, you know, and you'll, you'll erm er get to understand what, what their motivation is, which mm. i think'll be very important because mm. probably er the majority of your colleagues are not going to be religious. yeah. i mean unless you actually do go and work for a specifically religious charity, mm. which of course you, you might be able to do. mm. but erm that would er y you know limit you er very much, and even if you did, er you would almost certainly be, be erm having to relate to other professionals in, in, in the er area who, who were not religious, so it would be a very good thing to mm. do that i think and, and see another side. and i mean in that way you might sort of really want to go and look at one of these erm er sort of er rather awful inner city areas. but i suppose birmingham is not er er marvellous is it really from that point of view. that's right. er where i was working erm in the yeah. last er half of that year mm. erm w in ladywood erm er mm. oh right. erm the people who came to the youth group they yeah. erm they were erm underprivileged. yes. i mean the schools they went to weren't er weren't really what i was used to you know . no . yes. yes. erm but to be honest i, i think you're right about the christian angle because i do think that erm, although i enjoyed that year, yeah. erm if yeah. if i had er if i could do it again i'd do something erm really different from that, yes. erm a lot yes. more practically-minded than it was. right, yes. yes erm because it was a, a sort of a student thing as well, mm. and there was, there mm. were, there was bible teaching and all sorts but i don't know. i don't mm. mm. i, i should think you're right, i would get yes. er boxed in. well i, i think it would you know you th there there's, there's i mean that's not to er deny the importance of erm er you know christian motivation, no sure, mm. it's ju it's just to get a look at the other side so that you can see that erm mm. and erm i think too you, if, if you can think perhaps for yourself, try and think out what you want to get out of this experience. you know what you want to get out of it, mm. er in terms of equipping yourself for erm er you know being er erm er well better able i suppose to, to work out where you could make er a, a, a, a real contribution you know? mm. mm. now what do you need to know , you know, about yourself or about how you relate to particular groups of, of underprivileged erm or er you know inadequate people, i mean people who can't cope in various ways,particular erm areas, i mean age groups or particular forms of erm er maybe disability er or handicap or whatever, mm. which you know maybe you, you, you'd like to erm sort of er see how you related to those sort of people. mm. erm er it's a huge area of course. yeah. erm and, and i think in a way you y you know you may start the exploration and then that may lead you on to do something else, and, and you may spend actually a bit of time before you actually want to start the training. sure. you know before you're sure whether it's cos you know if you get into probation you see, that's quite a specialized area and, and it may i think actually it might be it's quite difficult to get into. mm. erm er so er you know it may be that you would need to work, and i'm sure they would probably expect you to have worked with offenders erm mm. or ex-offenders or something in some category o or other, or er perhaps amongst young erm you know underprivileged groups who provide a lot of the erm juvenile criminals. mm. you know so that you are trying to do that. er and also it's not always easy, i mean there's all this youth work business and sort of detached youth work and so on in erm er you know in the very underprivileged areas, but actually i, i think people say that the erm er the disaffected teenagers are actually some of the most difficult people to relate to at all. i mean some people have a knack. mm. you know. but, but they really are quite quite difficult you know, and almost you want your sort of most skilled people er doing that really erm mm. and er it's sort of a question of erm how much challenge you want to undertake both during the placement period and immediately afterwards. but that's one of the strengths i suppose of the social work qualification, that it is a generic one so mm. you can move about afterwards mm. and so on. but and the, and the training mm. er i mean er especially yeah. er with it changing, i mean that's er it's very much yeah. placement based isn't it? oh yeah. but you see the thing yeah. er that would be erm structured in a way that y the people who are er training are making sure you've got the best out of it and are making mm. sure you were oh yes. erm examining what you yeah. were learning as you went along, yes . yeah. and erm yeah. you know that's exactly what i want. mm. but i need mm. this experience to get on the course mm. and i need to ensure that this experience erm well i i need to make sure that i will be evaluating it in a similar way as i went along. yes. i think that's right. i think if you can now, it may be that you could find a sort of semi-structured thing like the richmond fellowship. now i've no brief for the richmond fellowship you know, no. j it just happens to be one that i know about. mm. there may be lots of others which do very similar things, but i think this is a question of you working out the criteria for your placement that you want, you know, mm. and, and what you're trying to do and what you hope to get out of it, mm. erm and er then you know you'll, you'll have a bit more of a, a shopping list as it were, and, and that may help you to erm actually define where you want to go within this huge range of of er you know possibilities. mm. erm i mean there are erm it's very interesting. cos there's also another th area i know a bit about is, and, and don't take these as being the only areas, it's just it's easier if you actually discuss a a sort of case, you know? mm. erm there's this erm rudolf steiner community which is part of the camp hill village trust. they actually set up villages, which are in erm you know usually in rural er surroundings, and erm er they have erm usually i mean they're mentally-disabled people there, and erm er they set up the village so that there are able- bodied people in there, and yet they live with the er mentally disabled people, you know they have houses and they the erm in inverted commas normal people have erm children and all this sort of thing, erm and yet they have erm er some of these mentally defective people living with them in the house, mm. and they have to you know let their children get used to them and so on and mm. erm er it's very interesting because of course the children grow up probably much more comfortable around people who've got mental problems than you or i would be mm. because they, they just know they're different and they, they learn a way of coping, you know? and now that's a very interesting thing to see,i mean mm. erm now those sort of villages, there's one at botton village near danby, which is out near scarborough. and you could go to that for a weekend if mm. you wanted to, to see what was going on. and i'm sure you could have great discussions with the people there and so on about all sorts of things. i mean, i mean there are er there are, i mean they probably i think a lot of them probably are not social work qualified. mm. now i don't know what training they've had actually. erm i mean maybe they haven't had very much,but erm but in, in a sense there's a sort of huge commitment on their part to that, because they actually, i remember some chap came over to do the talk and i think he's got four kids and he said, well you know, i didn't know how my kids were going to react to people fine you know mm. . i mean you have to watch things a bit, but you know basically it's a good experience for them. and erm he said, i've got no erm pension or anything, you know i, cos they don't, they pool the money you see, they, and i mean they do things like erm oh i don't know have cows and make cheese and ice mm. cream and grow potatoes and all this and probably they have bees and sell honey and you know they eat er they really try to be self- sufficient sort of community as much as they can. obviously some things they probably have to buy, shoes and mm. mm. that sort of thing, so they make some things and sell them. erm and er but he's worked at that you see, but he doesn't get any money for it i don't think. i don't know what they do about must have some sort of spending money, but mm. you know it doesn't they they don't erm sort of exist in the social security system like the rest of us do, mm. and therefore that community's going to have to look after him when he's old. and of course i don't know how long don't know how long that one's been going for, but obviously that's another sort of problem in some way. mm. but i mean there are huge ways of er you know very very different ways of giving service really. mm. and you might find out some sort of interesting things about that. er the social work qualifat qualification's a good one because it, it is a sort of base for all sorts of things, and, and you know you might learn specialist erm i don't know, sort of psychothera therapy techniques of various sorts, but probably the social work qualification would be a good starting point to to build from. mm. you know, so erm good starting point the social work qualification . okay. okay, well you know. yeah. mm. and then you see where it goes on from there. mm. but what if yes? if erm well where do i go from here really? i mean if i want well i th i think you, you, i, i would erm er go and, and have another look at this alternative thing. the . and obviously there are some of them which relate locally to organizations which are national mm. and you could go and look at the local one and talk to the people there and see what they're doing and yeah. all this sort of thing. erm and i'd try and go and see the admissions person on the c q s w here, right. erm and ask them you know and say, and if they want two years, say well you know i'm pretty keen on this, now what, you know i necessarily expect you to have me when i come back and apply but i mean you know what sort of things do you think i should be doing? and try and tell them briefly what you've done in that sort of area you know, and, and see wh see what they say. and erm maybe have a look through erm some of the erm well there's a file on social work isn't there and all the stuff about the qualifications, and get some of the prospectuses and so and mm. erm maybe go and see one or two others if you can get to see them. erm and er you also try, so, so really it's a question of developing your own ideas about what you think you want to explore and the sort of skills and things that you want to try and develop, mm. erm and also checking with them that you know you're not going one way and no no , they'd want you to do something else, mm. erm and, and trying to er er both satisfy yourself and them that, that you know you're getting the right sort of experience. yeah. okay. mm. and er, yeah. i suppose i wanna be a bit careful that the experience i get isn't too specialist as well. well, erm do you think that matters or not? mm. i think a lot of it is about erm how these er people, you know how really a lot of the problems for people are in their relationships with the people around them, right. and, and if those are bad or not supportive enough or actually destructive, mm. then n you know they can't cope with it. and, and, and it's getting the idea of how that works is very important. now you, you can do that in all sorts of ways. mm. erm and er i think, i think that's one of the most important things. and also how erm if you are a, a helper what sort of pressures that puts on you. you know, what sort of emotional stuff they try and dump on you, mm. and, and what do you do about it, you know whe when they er y you know, i mean, i mean i think one of the things is you, you can start off erm you know very open and so on, but if you're not careful y y you actually take on responsibility for them you know in a, in a way which is actually not helpful to them and is probably very bad for you mm. because you've just taken on too much. and you, but you, of course you have to take on something. there's only if the person you're talking to thinks you don't care, well i mean they're not you know they're not going to think very much of you are they? mm. but, but if, if they discover that you know they can really get you erm er to er do all their worrying for them, mm. er then maybe they will try and do that. and that's not very good, you know. i mean your own aim is really to make yourself superfluous in the end. i mean you may have to support them through a sort of bad patch, but the idea is to erm get them so that they can look after themselves, you know. and they don't really want to go on using you as a a sort of prop, because i mean you can't afford that because you've got lots of other clients and you, you know really the aim is to try and get them back to self-sufficiency. mm. but there is a lot of er sort of emotional interaction going on, and you'll have to get used to that. and i mean part of the point of doing the training of course is to get the hang of how to handle that. yeah, sure. erm but, yeah and then, but er in the context of the training, right, yes. i'll be given structures in which to evaluate that and people will be continuously assessing me i suppose . oh yes, and seeing whether you'd yes, how you were coping with it and whether you got too involved or whether you didn't get involved enough or whether you actually were able to sort of get this balance between erm the sort of emotional support you give and the actual practical help which maybe they need in some sort of way, you know because i mean mm. i mean erm and sometimes of course you can't give them the practical help they need, you know, mm. because there isn't a grant or there isn't whatever it is and you know and, and how you actually manage to er cope with that yourself. because you know you don't have unlimited resources. in any helping profession you've usually got this problem, you haven't got enough resources. mm. you know. er i mean you obviously have to make erm decisions about that and so on. and the nature of caring is changing to the caring professions. i mean now, the erm the social workers erm are care managers in a lot of cases, in other words it may be contracted out to somebody else to do the actual caring and you look at the package which the client is getting,you know it might be i dunno some old dear who needs meals on wheels and visits every week or something mm. and maybe it isn't you that do the visit, it's somebody else who's, who's being paid to do it, but you may be responsible for exercising professional judgment about whether that's the appropriate thing that should be happening and perhaps assessing whether they're doing it properly. mm. now that's a comparatively new development but, but, but it's, it's coming in now. erm mm. but i think you're right, i think if you, you can get qualified that's the thing and then you can begin to look thereafter. except that you do need to have an idea of i think which area cos that will determine your placements and things you see. yeah. well i mean all, all i know in that at the moment is that i, i'd i would be most naturally drawn to youth, i would have thought. okay, well i should start there you know, erm and, and er see what options there are for getting involved with erm you know young people, erm mm. and but they are the toughest, that's the only other thing i think. yeah. except it may be easier for you cos you're nearer in age you see. but that, that causes its own problems because erm, you know, do you just become one of them or what do you do, and mm. erm ho well anyway,anyway. er but if that's what you're drawn to i should start there, mm. and, and, and see, but try and see what sort of various experiences there are. of course there's also you can use one of the agencies like community service volunteers to mm. try and get a placement. you know they're a erm placements agency basically. i mean they don't charge you anything, and er i don't think they charge the employers anything, but their raison d'etre is to get volunteers into appropriate places. oh that sounds . erm but even although that's their raison d'etre they've also only got so many places, so many sure. volunteers and they try and match them, so right. the clearer you are about what you want er the better, you know, the more likely you are to get w er you know what's appropriate for you really. mm. so i think you probably need to sit down and try and think out some criteria for yourself about what you want. mm. yeah. i mean i'm sure you're right, but i just, i just don't know with the information i've got how to make those sort of decisions. is it a case of wading through files, or well erm er yes. can you only get those sort of erm those sort of ideas through the er placements themselves? i mean i yes, i see what you mean . well to a certain extent i suppose it's true, erm but i suppose if you said, well erm you know, can i think of skills that i need to develop? erm and er if i can, what are they? and erm er what er you know how, how might that be, be developed, you know. and what opportunities would i have for that in these various er situations? you know. mm. i mean i think there is a danger quite a number of the c erm community service volunteer placements involve things like looking after very severely handicapped people who are erm in higher education or something. mm. i mean really severely handicapped so they really need sort of helpers with them for you know at least fifty percent of the day or something. mm. well now i'm not sure that that's actually a very useful sort of thing to do. mm. i mean, i mean i'm sure it's useful in the sense that it gets one person through er doing a degree who couldn't have done it otherwise, but whether it would actually give you the sort of experience you want, i'm much more doubtful. mm. and maybe you would know about that. erm y i mean if you read er or somebody suggested that to you you might mm. mm. have a view about that. mm. but i think if y if you read some of the stuff and you said well, could i do that? would that be what i wanted to do? and then you thought well no, no it wouldn't because, and why wouldn't it, er but on the other hand there might be some good things about it and what were they, mm. and sort of write them down, you know. er i mean i don't think you want to spend hours and hours and hours doing it, but but, but well i can't, i've got a degree to get . yeah. well you know, if you spent an afternoon looking through some of the files and what the opportunities were. mm. er and i think also it should be helpful to go to er a tutor, an, an, an admissions tutor and say well you know, what, what sort of skills do i need to get? what are you actually looking for? i'll certainly get that fixed up . yeah. mm. and if, if you get stuck with it, well come back and we'll have another discussion, you know. okay. i th i think the, the most suitable placement i've found was that one in dover but there, there, then there's the the erm the christian motivation . yes. i mean i wouldn't want to labour that too much. mm. er what was it there? you it was er it's a residential place for yeah. erm adults with learning disability. i mean it you know that would give you the sort working in a team and working with people and erm mm. mm. mm. i dunno. it depends though. if you want to work with young people, yeah that's true, yeah. maybe you should try, you know, and it may not be possible to get the absolutely perfect answer either . mm. erm but i mean on the other hand if you start trying to develop your criteria, and i'd go out and look at botton village and look at the richmond fellowship or something, mm. and you know talk to people who do it and so on. now say, there's a social work contact we've got in york, who's i've read that, yeah. well go and talk to them about it, mm. and try and find out what they want and what's happening to the social services and y you know what they think about er what they'd, what skills they'd like you to have and the sort of experience you need and so on. i think the more people you talk about it to about it the better, especially people who are in it, mm. or doing the selecting for courses or for jobs and so on. so maybe if you had a chat to the admissions person and a chat to the social work contact we've got in york, mm. and try and get out of them what skills, you know, and chuck in a few ideas of your own, you know, yeah . maybe that would, that would be good. okay. does that sound alright? yeah, that's very helpful. good. okay, erm fine. well i should think that's probably about it then. right. erm is there anything else? erm er i'll make er other appointment, another appointment as and when i . yeah, that would be fine. you know, i mean we're here, well are you going down at the end of the week or something? or erm no, i've got too much yeah. , i'm gonna stay here through easter. oh right. well we're, we're here except for easter. well you've probably seen, we've put a notice up on the front door to say when we're open and when we're shut over the easter vac, you know, but it's really basically a week we have at easter and mm. sometimes there are odd days in the vac when we do other things and we shut, you mm. know, but erm yeah. and you can always catch me, if making an interview is difficult in the time mm. then you can catch me or one of the other careers advisors out mm. in the information two till four every day. mm. erm during term that is, unfortunately right. well of course i, i should have done all this last year, you know . yeah. oh well. never mind. it's, at least you're doing it now, and yeah. erm getting it right's important. mm. but i think you do need to plan a bit, you know in spite of the fact you've got the degree to do, if, if you can spend time going to see these people. you know, you don't need to spend ages doing it, but, but just take a bit of time to do it and mm. to have a look at the opportunities in the files, thinking about what you actually might want to do and, and so on and what's on offer. mm. right. okay? right er, thanks a lot. right. jolly good. oh, now i've got to stop this thing haven't i? oh ? er what happens er i stop . hello. local rivalry unlimited as the two big footballing cities of the east midlands lock antlers. and you know who's here to survey the wreckage if indeed there is any. greavesey of course and at the risk of overdosing on goals you can see all the action that mattered from the first division yesterday. and there's more, our profile of one of europe's men of the week aston villa's aussie mark bosnich. now on the subject of aston villa we can confirm that despite today's report to the contrary, the two million pound transfer of tony daley to is on. the former england winger will shortly be on his way to italy as we're about to hear from ron atkinson and gary newbon. there are reports in today's paper ron that there are problems with the tony daley deal to italy because of personal terms is this true? i don't think so i mean i left it all last night and everything seemed er amicable and er i haven't heard anything to the contrary today. erm the way i understand the situation is tony's happy with er his arrangement and that the clubs have agreed and i think it's just a matter of them going back now to report back to their president the italian people and then the way i see it he'll he'll go after the er game for a medical and you know there shouldn't be any problems there. looks good business at villa i mean he's an exciting player but two million pounds that's a huge fee. well in this day and age you get your reserve team player normally. erm i think what it is i think it's a it's a it's a deal that's should suit all parties. i mean tony's been at the club a long time he's expressed a wish to go erm his style and his age is probably just right to go on the continent, he's twenty six years of age and er i would guess that his particular style wou possibly would be better suited to continental play than it is in england. yeah good diplomacy from ron cos i think that's a cracking deal for villa but anyway that's that sorted out . not half oh. let's turn our attention to today's little matter leicester and nottingham forest. yet another midlands derby and i think this season well we've worked out each of the midlands clubs has to play sixteen midlands derbies yeah we which is great for us. it's great for us we we is it good for them? well we say that but i mean they're not really derbies. if you take the extreme stoke peterborough you wouldn't call that a derby or oxford versus derby county. you would hardly call that a derby. there are games in our region and as you rightly say they're great for us but er i wouldn't say that they're derbies i mean the derbies are are birmingham west brom and west brom wolves and wolves and obviously today's game is a derby leicester forest derby yeah that's right but but you wouldn't say that they're all derbies tony would you not really i wouldn't have thought so anyway. fergy's at the game is he? yeah alex ferguson. alex ferguson i wonder who he wants er i i think it could be that he's after you know. he certainly needs some more players you know he's not got enough. well we'll probably find out now let's er go straight over to filbert street where we can join our commentators alan parry and ron atkinson. well the new filbert street taking shape the five million pound main stand official open since our last visit here and when the lower tier is completed by the end of the year the stand will house about ten thousand people all seated and under cover. one facility has already had plenty of use and that's the physio's room. leicester have had to cope with a lot of injuries in the early part of the season the most serious blow the loss of steve walsh. his height and strength will be badly missed in attacked as leicester field what must be the smallest striking partnership in the first division. julian jochim the star of england's youth team last season is just five feet six inches tall and david speedy towers over him with a lofty five feet seven. the message to leicester's midfield is, keep the ball on the ground. well leicester could go third in the table if they win today and as brian little points out that's a big improvement on their early position. i think the last time you were here we were actually in the bottom half of the table but shot up to about seventh and since then once we got close to the people with games in hand and catching on the extra games we've come up into the top three sometimes. so today puts us back into third place if we win and and obviously we want to be there. and you hit a forest team that's unbeaten for the last five matches. yeah i think we're going to have a major say in what goes on this season. i mean er they've had so many problems injury wise i doubt whether they've played the same tw the same team twice at any stage this season and er on the day with the players they've got available they're going to have a a major say in this league this season. well like leicester nottingham forest have been ravaged by injuries. carl tyler and gary bull yet to kick a ball this season. ian leigh glover making slow recoveries but at least there's good news in the return of centre half colin cooper who starts his first game for two months and two recently injured strikers are back in tandem, ironically the biggest partnership in the division. leading scorer stan collimore a massive six feet four and his sidekick robert rozario a diminutive six foot three. does that mean forest midfield will keep the ball in the air i wonder. well forest have recently enjoyed an unbeaten spell, frank clark a much happier man. yes er we've five games now and er although we haven't won as as many as i would've liked at least erm we've stayed unbeaten. er we're getting a few bodies back into the team emptying the treatment room and and things are looking a lot better. a very hard game for you this against leicester but you do have collimore in form. yes i mean stan missed wednesday and i think we missed him and it's good to have him back today it it will be a very difficult game. you know i think leicester are one of the er one of the real favourites in this division to go up. it's a local derby er and let's just hope it's a good game and everybody enjoys it. and the referee john kirby from sheffield starting the game and that's earlier than he should have done. you haven't missed anything though. cooper gets the first header away. it's a very very windy day here by the way and cold as well and i think that's gonna have some affect on the game. difficult to see which way the wind is blowing at the moment it's quite swirling. anyway he'll judge that one well but it's er falls neatly for gemmell and a good lay off here to kingsley black early chance for nottingham forest and really kingsley black will be as they say rather disappointed he didn't do better there ron atkinson. well a great situation scott gemmell followed up the long ball picked up the as they ran at the defence and then he's committed to play it and then he's just just slid it in nicely for kingsley black on his left side. and really he should really have gone across the face of the goal with it. he's gone for the narrow side he's tried to squeeze it in the in the near post when he'd got all the far post to go for. but that's a shocking that's a shocking let off. and that was only about a minute of the game gone and i dare say er ian whose place he's taking on that left-hand side would have relished that kind of opportunity. anyway leicester have won a free kick midway inside the forest half. the ball set up for to drive it straight into the wall speedy then tried the shot oldfield takes over. and leicester forced to go all the way back into their own half. this is hill speedy an excellent ball and a very good tackle on speedy by cooper. speedy won't agree at the moment because he's writhing in agony and there's a little bit of retribution that followed that. but i personally felt that that was a good tackle on speedy, ron how did you see it? yeah i think colin cooper stepped in to play very very very quickly and that's something i think frank clarke w will be looking for from him. he's he's a quick nimble defender speedy was just hanging hanging on waiting for the ball to be played into him and i must confess i didn't really see anything afterwards i mean well if you look at that that doesn't seem anything untoward does it? well he's probably just caught him on the back of on the back of the calf but er i thought it was as you say i thought it was a nice sharp incisive tackle. another second forest player seemed to go in then i don't know whether it was him that caught speedy rather than cooper with the initial challenge. anyway david speedy yeah was in a little tumble job there but i i honestly don't think he if he caught him it was quite accidental. yeah i'm sure you're right. and i was just thinking then that er frank clarke will want will want that sort of speed across the across the ground from cooper, it's perhaps something they've lack in recent games stability at the heart of their defence of notts forest. turn forward by phillips and then agnew captaining leicester wins it back again. this is whitlow driving it long to speedy. agnew loses out in the challenge in midfield but gemmell manages to find black not long for collimore but too long. gavin ward has missed only one game in leicester's goal since he arrived in the summer from cardiff city. and with the aid of the wind got an awful lot of distance on that kick and almost earned side a corner, it was only just kept in by his opposite number tommy wright. i think the wind ron is er behind leicester's backs in this half. yes you would you just wonder whether forest back four might just push up a little bit higher and let the ball carry through to the keeper every time. here goes kingsley black again getting in behind the defenders but he rather over played his first touch then. and the northern ireland international surprisingly finding himself in the clear twice already in the first five minutes, although that was er obviously not a chance. the first one certainly was. cooper's header clear thomson wins it back for leicester, gets it back again from greyson. lovely passer of the ball steve thomson and he finds young neil lewis on the left and this lad's very effective indeed going forward. hill and collimore collide and leicester did well to win that back. a long ball by greyson, chettle is underneath it. kingsley black a little bit unfortunate there kingsley black he's played he's played a nice ball down the side down the channel but that's the sort of ball collimore would have thrived on. i don't think it was that robert rozario'd admit to being the quickest player in the world. but that so we think that's an area where forest will try and try and exploit just playing down the sides of the er leicester centre halves and let er collimore use this great pace of his. i saw him play here last year for southend and to be fair he absolutely ripped er the leicester defence apart. oldfield taking a bit of a risk there on the edge of his own box but leicester got away with it. lewis forward to ormanroyd, moore sticking very very tight and in the end pushing the leicester man. and the free kick goes in early to jochim. just cajoles his goalkeeper to come out and collect that one. yes they're gonna have a little bit of a problem leicester. i mean their stock play normally is er a quality ball from thomson into big walsh well you know with walsh missing they they've gotta sort of be a little bit more inventive with their free kicks. speedy can of course you know he's a good little leaper for a small lad but they're not just gonna be able to whack the ball up there. they're gonna have to play their way in. yes incidentally steve walsh has er that serious knee injury ligaments have been injured i think they're still not sure exactly how long he's gonna be out. but it is gonna be a lengthy er injury and that is a major blow so successfully converted from centre half to striker. the linesman has flagged there and it's gone nottingham forest way. just talking of walsh incidentally he scored twenty goals in his thirty seven games since moving in to attack. that's how effective he'd been. rozario calling for the high ball and wins it colin collimore won back then by greyson and a difficult one for the goalkeeper as phillips came in on him and forest win the throw. stewart pierce very deep cross towards rozario and it dropped nicely for whitlow to clear. speedy's lay-off thomson collides the forest man gemmell and the whistle has gone eventually for a free kick to forest. foul on steve stone. gemmell rozario he's gone well here rozario he's done very well and then he hit it straight against his own man. collimore thomson for leicester speedy agnew lewis on the left, it's a bit short that ball lewis did well to get it. now agnew again, great ball for speedy and that's the kind of defending that forest have been missing from colin cooper just hurt his shoulder then but he's er still holding it as play goes on and whitlow quite clearly holding collimore then yes i think you saw there whitlow's respect for collimore he doesn't want him to get turn round and running at him because big stan's got great touch and he's got very very he's got explosive pace. here is collimore phillips down the right flank he was offside that was unlucky from forest's point of view and collimore dumped to the ground when he played the ball away then and er he's just holding er his shin just above his ankle there and cooper is still in trouble from that er shoulder he injured moments ago cooper's all right to continue and the forest physio graham myers busy treating collimore. busy is something graham myers has been all season with all forest injuries ward with a free kick gets it clear straight to thomson though greyson thomson gemmell closes down the room immed that's a very good ball. agnew speedy coming in ormanroyd then got in his way rather but it comes still to thomson he lays it off to lewis and the cross is too hard. some good football there from leicester city all inspired by steve thomson. given time and space he's he's an excellent midfield player you know. he's got great feet he can pass the ball superbly and he he sees things he spreads the play. i mean he tried the forest defence out on the left-hand side t to start with switched the player and got young lewis in and really forest could have done with a better ball er sorry leicester could have done with a better final ball from lewis. well this is worrying now for forest because cooper's gone down again holding that shoulder. it's his first er match or at least the first he's started since the opening weeks of the season. he did come on as a substitute against er oxford in midweek and frank clarke's first signing injured his shoulder in this collision with speedy. complete accident. got a kick on the head as well. it's the shoulder that's giving him a problem and er that's always tricky because er it can er obviously affect the way a defender approaches the more physical aspect of his job. they can't really expect him to have a physical game this afternoon can they with david speedy? well another physical challenge in midfield seen there by the referee and forest get the free kick and the ball was rolling when pearce took it. it was a great kick actually out to phillips on the right it was a pity it was moving. still nil nil eleven and a half minutes gone. chettle looking for rozario and finds him and it goes towards collimore just cleared in the nick of time by whitlow. now oldfield for leicester city. greyson all too easy for stone to win back. nice control on the ball by gemmell rozario shakes off the first challenge from whitlow and feeds black. has collimore outside him and collimore drives his cross in and is cleared by hill thomson playing it back in, difficult one for greyson and he was a little bit fortunate i think there to find thomson who's given it away anyway. stewart pearce rozario wants it played in quickly. oldfield prevented the cross now collimore not quite and agnew did well. ormanroyd good ball for speedy and on it goes to jochim but it's too long. there's a little bit of a more measured ball there by david speedy could have put jochim with a real shout. he'd made a super little dart across the line of forest defenders. phillips straight to hill and that's a long ball aimed at ormanroyd cooper across to cover and you just saw him grimace a little bit again there as he charged in on ormanroyd. that shoulder obviously still him a problem he seems to be holding it a little bit awkwardly as it comes in to speedy now. chettle gets it away. that would be a little bit of a problem for frank clarke if er cooper has got a problem with his shoulder you know if it's if it's serious because looking at his people on his bench you know neil webb and crosby and looking at the make-up of his team he hasn't really got anybody he could slot back in there unless he put er rozario in there. yes that's true it's a good point. so it'll be er very important that the injury doesn't affect cooper for too long here. having said that he's been out that long you know alan and cooper he'll not want to miss any more football surely? leicester city get the throw-in. jochim won it greyson not a very good ball gemmell wins it back for forest now black forward collimore's offside and that looked a very close decision. ooh i'd like to look at that one again alan . i mean that's bang in front of us and that's that's the sort of area they'll be looking to play the ball down the sides for collimore's pace and i wouldn't wonder on it. i would wonder i made him, well it doesn't clearly show it there, i made him onside from our position. meanwhile agnew lifts it in and there is another offside decision and this time it's gone in forest's favour. speedy was offside. i think stan collimore's just said to the ref to the linesman on this side you know i started my run from m my half of the field but that would be a dangerous game to play against somebody with his pace is to give him too much space at the back of him. oh that's a lovely header on as well it almost reached rozario greyson gets it clear. chettle back into the leicester half now thomson and agnew combining well and the first time ball volleyed out towards ormanroyd. needs some help and gets it from thomson who started this move off and lifted in towards agnew, cooper clears it still hasn't gone out and er phillips just prevented it i think going for a corner, yes it's a throw. thomson again for leicester city looking very influential early on here. this is lewis only nineteen this lad and very pacey and wins the corner. yes you're spot there alan erm stevie thomson is pulling all the strings for leicester. i'm a little bit surprised stone hasn't tried to get a bit closer to him although i think he's been given the job of tracking agnew who's more of an attacking midfield player. thomson takes the corner as well. whitlow coming in on that near post the goalkeeper was very decisive then and er has benefited by getting the free kick tommy wright. yeah that might be of those situations with the referee being over protective towards the goalkeeper. i don't really think he had a claim on that ball the goalie. i mean he's come out over the top of his own defenders and i over big ormanroyd and he can do little else but push it back down into the pack. couldn't really see how there was a foul there. another free kick has been given this time against big mike whitlow lively start to the game and a lively start for the referee. eleven free kicks for fouls already. gemmell swings the latest free kick into the box pearce did well to win that one. hill only half clear and that's a goal kick. but i think we're seeing something in the forest side we haven't see for what twelve fourteen years are we. they just they th they refu you know they lift balls into the box now. i mean we've always associated forest with playing their way into the penalty area now with rozario er with collimore they've got the licence or the facility just to knock long balls through the air at them. this is kingsley black and again he looks to use collimore's pace and he moved into a great position there collimore. whitlow across to block he still gets the cross in that was dangerous. agnew and hill combining to get is clear but it's a corner and that cross caused real problems to leicester. there's no danger if leicester don't seal off this space. here's that ball again up alongside. defenders gone deep and kept collimore on side and this is where you expect stan to do his trick. actually he's tried to play it in early there. collimore will remain a threat from the corner he has just won. rozario on the near post chettle also has come forward for this kick and it goes in towards that near post area where oldfield takes no chances. second successive corner then for forest and again it's aimed at rozario who wins it this time that's dangerous. scrambled away by hill to jochim. lovely little turn he's deceived cooper he's got the pace to go all the way here jochim. how does the referee interpret that foul? moore's the guilty player jochim had got away from him and unless the referee decides that there was another defender coming round on the cover there moores could be in big trouble. i think you'll find cooper was just a touch deeper than him albeit very wide. i think colin cooper just got round the side of this a brilliant run from young good turn and he's a he's attacked the heart of the defence and look at cooper's position now i think he's just slightly nearer to the keeper than laws. the yellow card for a foul on jochim and but laws will be relieved he certainly could have gone for that. some referees might have interpreted that as a sending off offence. whitlow driving the free kick into the wall and then lays it off to lewis stabbed in and away by collimore. whitlow again finding thomson now agnew pearce up well and agnew on to it again lewis oldfield comes into the game thomson. good football this by leicester jochim across by greyson ormanroyd coming in on the back post. pearce gets it away to oldfield well he's scored some really spectacular goals in his career david oldfield and he wasn't far off with that shot. i must confess when this one dropped down at him and he chested it out it's a lovely little bit of link up play by jochim again. good early ball in partial clearance i thought ormanroyd might have got on that. partial clearance here from stewart pearce. now this is and i must admit when he pulled the trigger then i thought that was going to go right in the back of the net. but a good piece of attacking play from weston. all credit to them they know they haven't got a big guy apart from ormanroyd as an outlet player so they're prepared to be patient and build up and pass the ball al pass their way through. leicester city in the middle of a good spell of form here. seventh in the table of the start of play nineteen points from their ten games six wins a draw and three defeats. and unbeaten here at filbert street in six matches in league and cup. matches in hand on the sides all around them in the table and of course the team that has gone very very close to promotion the last two seasons loing losing in the playoff final. looking in the mood and the form to be up there again. greyson gemmell comes in to win it back for forest. black was weak in possession and this is thomson now oldfield lewis moving down the left and here he is eventually in possession. but he's lost it again, forest throw. stone no problem for whitlow although that almost dropped in a bit short for gavin ward. we do see the problems we've seen it at both ends the goalkeepers have when people chase a lost cause like rozario's just done there. you know rea no real no real problems at first but then they chase put the keeper under pressure and the keepers tend to panic. midway through the first half here at filbert street still leicester city nil nottingham forest nil but a good game. good kick there by ward chettle wins it thomson finding agnew there's leicester build now with greyson thomson lewis making a run down the left agnew wins it back again for leicester, he's playing well. thomson jochim and gemmell accepts the gift and then gives it back to oldfield. and a little untidy period of play but here's lewis to ormanroyd speedy sets it up for greyson and in it goes again towards agnew the captain and did that cross the line yes it's a corner. well some of the football leicester have played in this opening twenty o twenty minutes has been some of the best i've seen them. i i've probably seen them about four or five times in the last six months and they do tend to go a bit route one when walsh is playing but today their link up play has been excellent. thomson with the corner he's looking for whitlow but it was headed by rozario thomson can try again. and that flicked off the defender and bounced kindly with tommy wright. but apart from this er for leicester this alan now they're starting to s squeeze a little bit and they've got to be a little bit careful they don't leave collimore too much space to run into. but at the moment they're starting to dominate the game. good header by rozario collimore couldn't control it and that's the sort of link up frank clarke'll be looking for. ball onto rozario a little touch through and then the blistering pace of er collimore. rozario wearing a vest i notice there ron he wouldn't get into your team wearing a vest would he? jochim turns it through to speedy who couldn't repeat the dose. here's thomson and now lewis turned back again by ormanroyd and leicester playing some good football in forest's half. i think leicester public are gonna have to be a little bit patient with their team. i mean forest are pulling everybody behind the ball and you know they can't just sling the ball through. they're working is through and they they're playing some super little link up stuff. he's offside here it won't count. long before er it got to oldfield speedy was offside. i mean we haven't seen an awful lot of er julian jochim yet but th the two occasions when the ball's been fed into him he's shown a brilliant ability to turn with the ball and get at the defenders. and i think if if people like thomson can sort of give him that sort of service he's going to make life awfully difficult for the forest de central defence. and his partner there of course speedy he knows h you know he knows what's what in the game doesn't he. he's seen it all he's been there. yes this is his eleventh league club leicester city. i was reading somewhere this morning where he'd been with eight clubs in one season. good quiz question that one. agnew turning it on towards ormanroyd and the header by laws was excellent. back in the side now played six in a row. des little the signing from swansea has been rested because er frank clarke felt he'd lost a little bit of confidence in forest's poor start to the season. ormanroyd wins the header speedy flicks it on again and chettle er chettle rather got it away as jochim came in on him. collimore doing well there he really turned greyson and he's got black storming down the left and rozario to the right. good running by oldfield to get back. i have to say i think big stan took the wrong option then you know. it's still chances here for forest phillips playing it in again towards collimore good one handed catch by ward. i thought collimore had good break three against two and i thought the the ball he should have played he should have measured a ball into er kingsley black's stride. it would have given a similar sort of chance to the one he missed in the first minute. ormanroyd winning another header inevitably. jochim to speedy ormanroyd's lay-off a good one for lewis gets it in quickly on the left foot ormanroyd and then speedy collided with pearce as he went in to try and turn the ball goalwards and it's all ended up a goal kick. another very dangerous tact. i thought ormanroyd g got more on that actually when he headed it. i thought he'd actually caught a defender as he headed it but er he hasn't really got a good contact on the ball. i think as you said earlier the wind is playing a big part in the game and i i would i would imagine er the forest the forest management'll be very happy to get to half time no score. i think they would fancy their chances going er with the wind behind them. it's a cold wind too i can tell you a real wintry afternoon here. on the day we lost the hour on the clock it looks as though winter's started in earnest. i think winter started in august. i don't know about in earnest. well you should never worry you always manage to find the sunshine somewhere don't you? i could do with a little bit up here pall. here's collimore. oh it's a great effort by collimore. splendid work there ron by the big man. yes he did well. it it's not his best side er his right foot but you know he can weigh in on that side but er he does have a hunger for goals. which is understandable considering the vein he's in at the moment. that's er eight in seven games for him the last seven. there goes oldfield lewis it's exciting this young man when he goes forward like this. oh it's a tremendous run and it took a very fine tackle by chettle to stop him. oh that was brilliant wasn't it? picked up the pace picked up the square ball here and attacked he went went like a bomb . that's brill no defender in the world whatever level they are likes being attacked with by a pace player running at them. he really forced the issue there didn't he lewis and caused the corner. that's a tricky corner too turns it back in an agnew's header and speedy has turned it in . half an hour gone the captain has an injury but his side have taken the lead. david speedy's goal. yes and thoroughly deserved. i mean we could sense a goal was coming. good ball in they they've ch changed the tactic a little bit on this one. thomson he's hit a deeper corner. yep they've get in each other 's way but there's speedy a predator yard off the keeper. that's a good area to be on corner kicks when the ball's bobbling about. just in front of the keeper because it's amazing how many things fall down just in front of the keeper. david speedy's eighth goal of the season he's top scorer here he got a couple in the last home game against notts county and that was as ron perfectly described it a real predator in action there. well i think it's reasonable to say as well it was one that was deserved wasn't it? they've been threatening that for the last fifteen minutes or so. had a er not the best of starts but they've taken control of the game for my money o over the last period. agnew has just er received treatment from alan smith. he got kicked in the head by his own player mike whitlow there but i don't think he'll mind because er it all contributed to the goal. fourteen minutes of the first half remaining and leicester city deservedly in front. here goes collimore and black good ball for rozario stone black again. needs the cross now and he supplies it towards collimore touched away and a shot by phillips took a deflection off lewis for a corner. and you wouldn't have bet against that fellow volleying one in would you phillips. i mean that's that's one of his stock in trades he's a superb volleyer of the ball and it was there for a second with a chance was there for a second. very good signing phillips has been already he's er played both sides of midfield filled in at centre back as well in recent matches. he's only been with the club a few weeks. black lifts the corner into the near post and that astonishingly evaded everyone. jochim took that beautifully agnew to speedy good ball. oldfield nice form out from leicester. my word they're spraying it around beautifully. lewis great running by oldfield just played it in too long for him but he's gonna get it anyway. and a good ball to lewis thomson agnew splendid football from leicester city. greyson's cross into the near post speedy just missed it it almost sat up perfectly for him. forest on the record a little bit here but they suddenly break themselves and that's great defending again by whitlow. but at the moment they're on fire leicester are on fire at the moment. as i say this this fellow the last twenty minutes are the best i've seen leicester city play for a long long time. and it's been bought upon by necessity really they've had to play their way through and they certainly should be capable of doing that. and some of the buildup play has been tremendous in this period of time. here was that previous attack ron. yeah it's a good good early ball in from greyson as well. a combination of i would think of about twelve passes but tha they switched the play from side to side whitlow judging a difficult bounce well. he looks the part at centre back as well. but here's rozario gemmell black pearce is up in support but he goes for the long ball in and hill met it first. and that came off simon greyson. oh no it didn't the the linesman changed his mind. i think it was very very important as well for leicester to get a goal while they're having a good good spell because er there's no there's no doubt i would expect forest to put a far more sustained pressure on the second half with the wind in their backs. i could see them able to hit their front players a lot easier. what lovely skill that was by thomson in a very tight situation although in the end he's given it away. for me he's been the best player on the field this first half. yes. rozario's lay off well read by whitlow agnew ormanroyd and now oldfield. good work though gemmell came back to rob him. kingsley black on the counter attack rozario slipped i think fortunate to get it back and finds black in a good position. and leicester worked hard to win that back. chettle wins back the header but it's gone straight to whitlow thomson takes over and why not the way he's played. always one to get and usually using it well and he's got a throw-in. yeah i think the biggest single difference in the two sides at the moment, let's see what happens here first. turned back to ormanroyd who couldn't control it first time and that was enough for forest to win it back. rozario did well then. black seeing quite a bit of the ball on this side of the field. pearce look for phillips on the right lewis got there first but it dropped to stone. rozario stone again that was a clever effort really was. it was clever. i don't think the keeper was entitled to do that was he? i think gavin ward might have got er got a catch on that. but i was just saying, here let's have a little look at this as he pops it off now. stone stood it in there just stood it in there but it's it's a bit innocuous really. i suppose safety first is the order of the day. it has produced a corner though. black will take it swinging it in flicked on by rozario and the goalkeeper made up for er what might have been an error a moment or two ago by coming bravely in with pearce right in front of him and rozario i mean on the flick. i was saying the single biggest difference for me between the two sides has a been the passing but also the movement. there's been some tremendous movement from the leicester city, if you like the front six the midfield players and the er front three. you know i've talked about thomson's passing from midfield but you've always got to be have targets to hit you see if you're a passing player and certainly the leicester players have given him that. and phillips found collimore a willing target then but hill came back to deny it. yes at the moment he's sort of he he's the lone ranger isn't he collimore. always a threat. oh no what's he gavin ward has picked up a back pass. and they've taken the free kick quickly and tried to take full advantage of the situation and the referee has said you can't do that. i think they can alan i think they can. be interesting that one isn't it? the goalkeeper's he's committed the cardinal error by picking up the er the back pass, oh he's given a free kick the other way. well that's mystified me. that's why it happened. could you call that a deliberate back pass it almost came off greyson's er foot by mistake. well i can't see what else he's given this decision for now. well that was a mystery a little bit initially. why the second free kick was given in leicester's favour must remain an even greater one. we need alfred hitchcock to sort that one out. well gary newbon somebody's got to unravel the mystery. i mean for me they for me they should be drawing one each actually now . what alfred hitchcock and gary newbon you mean, or the teams right fair enough. thomson good ball out to lewis. that's a fine ball into speedy and a lovely little lay off to jochim. yes that was a very interesting talking point and er no doubt greavesie'll have a view on that at half time. there's black gemmell pearce bit long to rozario good ball that, oh he almost chested it down into the path of stone. now don't pick this one up gavin moore, no he knew about that. good spell this for nottingham forest. law's in possession looks for colin moore in the middle, hand ball. well that was totally unnecessary from pete . the ball's he let the ball drop behind him but er he still had a chance to get back on this. i mean simon greyson is not not picking up here neither is colin hill and really it's come on a little bit sudden but that was totally unnecessary as well. that well we've seen some comic cuts things going in the last five minutes or so haven't we. but i must admit i've got to know what happened with that goal, or free kick in yes another assignment for the dreaded newbon i think he'll have to speak to the referee about that. gemmell straight on to the head of hill and thomson dispossessed by gemmell. pearce whips it in dangerously and no risks taken by big mike whitlow. corner. actually they've picked up the pace forest since the goal erm don't this leicester are playing anywhere near as well as they were at the time they scored. corner goes in deep pearce getting up well and ward got up better than anyone and good safe hands as well by the keeper. can smile now. were we right did he give a free kick? in my book he gave a free kick for forest. certainly looks as if he did i mean he didn't give any other indication. well i can't think why a free kick would have been given for anything else. er certainly forest believed it was and ward believed it was a free kick you could tell by the expression on his face. it's one to leave to half time when we've got a bit more time to er examine the incident perhaps. here we've only got er what four minutes less than that remaining leicester leading remaining. leicester leading one nil against nottingham forest. fortunately no dispute about the goal. agnew speedy thomson not long for jochim and it's a good ball. oh well played colin cooper. oh that was almost a classic build up wasn't it? little ball up to speedy drops it off to thomson a good through ball to a running forward jochim. ormanroyd phillips denying the room and lewis with the cross speedy getting up well with pearce and it breaks to black. against the wind he can't get any er meat behind the clearance. greyson thomson back to the fullback again and he wins it back off chettle but cooper's there and that was a foul by whitlow in the back of rozario. play on says the referee forest in possession. a bit of a luck break there off oldfield takes it to collimore. typical stan collimore and now black. phillips on the far post well he is a great volleyer of the ball as ron mentioned before. he's not the greatest header of the ball although he has won a corner. yeah but you see that was a good chance you know. i mean s kingsley black has stood it in here to the second post now if he doesn't feel he can get enough on it to go for goal he should keep it in the danger area just turn it back across the face of the goal and let one of the other lads have a go at it, collimore or rozario. corner kick. black headed away by oldfield. and did that cross the line it hasn't yet and ormanroyd comes out with the ball. i think they're actually appealing for hand ball you know the forest players. here's phillips for forest still one down black onto hill's head. good clearance speedy. oldfield lewis making a great break again down the left. he really is quick and he's got the chance of a cross here. knocks it in towards speedy and got the final ball wrong but a shame he'd done so well. great great sort of break from the kid there. think ed took out one club too many there didn't he? little little sand wedge would have found er speedy on the on the back yes post. and hill finds speedy. he's playing well as well speedy leading the line very well. here's jochim. cooper gets it clear. phillips for nottingham forest. only about half a minute of the first half remaining and er certainly whitlow has hardly put a foot wrong at the back for leicester so far. played at left back and centre back this season mike whitlow. here's jochim he needs a bit of help here cooper breathing down his neck. did well. agnew turned in towards speedy pearce gets it clear. good defending in the nick of time but still leicester press greyson and again greyson headed away by laws to ormanroyd. that was a chance. well that was a glorious opportunity wasn't it. coming off the back of some more good build up play from er leicester. good little stand in ball there you see laws can't quite get it up on it. no he big sticks there falling on his left foot. it maybe came down a little bit too slow for him. i think that's about er the saving grace on that one. he's there to win it back and find jochim nice turn by him. taken off him though by stone. good work from rozario now black down the left-hand side for him. five men forward here nottingham forest. swung back in towards rozario. collimore good tackle by hill a really effective challenge and collimore and hill having a real scrap as the ball comes over and the referee steps in and stern action might be required here by referee kirby. the referee's got a real problem here. it's bad enough with er collimore and hill wrestling on the floor but without the goalkeeper coming and getting involved. now he was lenient earlier on in the half the official when he might have shown a red card to laws. is he going to be similarly lenient again with the two players here. came on the back of a very very good move as always. and you see the two players tangling on the ground here. i think i don't think big stan will be very happy with what he's done there. no he was certainly the aggressor more so that hill. what's it to be? yellow yellow. well fair enough we criticize referees often enough for perhaps harshly sending players off i suppose we should compliment mr kirby for not showing the red card there. though i'll say as i said earlier in the half there's some play some referees might have seen that as a sending off offence. what d'you think ron? well i saw a sending off yesterday on television that er i thought was nowhere near as severe as that and i must say that he's a very luck man stan. so the first half ends in real drama. and a lot of talking points for jimmy greaves and tony back in the studio at half time to discuss when they rejoin us after the break with the score here at filbert street leicester city one nottingham forest nil. welcome back. well not the least interesting moment in that first half was that peculiar back pass and the free kwick kick which followed it and we'll come to that in a moment. mm. but i think leicester as ron was saying look a lot better side without steve walsh funny to say. well what they're doing actually it's quite right because they're they tended to play the long ball to steve walsh so that he could head it down and what they're doing actually they've got two four foot eight forwards in jochim and speedy and a nine foot seven winger ormanroyd but because exactly but because of that they're playing the ball through the forest er midfield and they are looking a lot better side. this is the best i've seen them play for a long time leicester they're playing forest type football they're playing very well. very well indeed although forest should have gone ahead within a minute. forest should have gone ahead first first forty seconds of the game. i mean black who is consistently doing this along with and crosby and co. i'd if i if if i was poor old frank clarke i'd be tearing me heart out. that that look at that. that's that's that's a terrible terrible effort from from there. and they could have easily been one up at that particular time which was a minute. then there's a whole different ball game isn't there after that but er and then leicester got the bit between the teeth and scored what was a very goal really by your standards wasn't it? it was a good goal erm they they played well it was a good move it, we we saw a great run by lewis to get this corner which was a smashing bit of football. then agnew who doesn't out there at all heads it back in and speedy in the ideal spot in the six yard box a nice little flick on. er a lot of courage here by agnew because he can see his own player's gonna go to kick the ball but he doesn't flinch out of it, knows exactly what he's gonna do. tailor made for speedy that isn't it. cos there's always defenders good goal on the line you can't yeah be offside. no no no it's a well taken goal and and that's that's what he was looking for just a little touch on. now let's try to clarify this peculiar moment about the back pass right mm yes yes yes it was peculiar wasn't it? well as far as we can work out what actually happened is is the referee does give a free kick for this back pass there. now it wasn't really a back pass although it did actually come off of greyson. keeper picks it up now rozario you can see is is is protesting. now the referee's given it and what we reckon here is rozario's taken the free kick to gemmell but gemmell is now offside. which is fair enough. and that's how we look at it. now i don't know whether that is the fact that's the sort of assessment we've made. er that as far as we know is the referee's confirmed that it was offside and actually if you look at that it was offside. i don't think there's much doubt about it is there ? but justice was done really cos it wasn't really a back pass in the first place. no. er it's just one of those marginal things. quick thinking by forest. penalized there bit unfortunate but justice was done. yes and forest have got to find a better route to goal than that and we'll find out whether they can in a few moments. hello again. one nil to leicester city good game so far. let's just have a look at some of the statistics from that eventful first half and er an eye-catching one at the bottom there look fouls conceded twelve to leicester four to nottingham forest. one that forest got away with jim. somewhat surprising that actually isn't it you wouldn't have thought there by laws would have been that er discrepancy. the the laws for i don't know i mean i get a bit fed up. i keep harking on it and i don't want to be labelled as the man who who constantly whinges about forwards diving. but i don't know there was no attempt really to he went down after laws had tackled him. i'm sorry i i okay you book the player but it it appears to me that that forwards just don't want to stay on their feet or even try to stay on their feet. and if i was the referee and since it was such a long way from goal there was no no advantage in going down was there ? oh there was no question of him being no not really. and there was not question of laws being being er sent off for that. professional foul and but if i was a referee now unless i saw the forward actually trying to stay on his feet i would view all of those fouls very suspiciously. right forest are gonna have the wind behind them yes in the second half so we can expect to see collimore racing on to all sorts of long balls now . well it's up to stan to yeah to have a go he's got the pace he's the quickest man on the field probably. apart from lewis who looks a bit lively yes. the leicester full back. erm and you would expect stan to with his with him facing goal to have a go. but it doesn't always necessarily apply ton. sometimes i we always felt that you'd like to play against the wind it gives you just that cos it holds the ball up. little bit more control. and er and with the wind sometimes the ball's al that ball's always running away from you and the way goalkeepers play now they tend to come out very quickly and more times than enough they get there first . all right we can grab a quick word with frank clarke the forest manager who's talking to garry newbon. frank what about this argument that's going on about the free kick that was disallowed? well i mean i'm not interested in that really till after the game. erm the referee said it was for offside i mean i'm not i'm not arguing about we'll we'll think about that after the game. leicester were quite a handful in the first half. yes yeah they played quite well but i thought we got our game together after the goal and created a few chances ourselves and er if we keep that going we're get something from this. and finally cooper's shoulder's obviously very bad you've had it taken yeah er doctor thinks it's best if he comes off. so er we've had to take him off. thank you. and as a result of that david phillips who as i was saying in the first half has proved himself to be a very valuable all-rounder already to forest has slotted back in at centre back again and that garry crosby has come on as substitute and taken up his usual position and phillips' first half position on the right wing. so that's going to be a problem for nottingham forest who threatened towards the end of that first half to get back into this game one down remember. david speedy's goal for leicester in the first half and with the wind behind nottingham forest now ironically is often happens in these cases it seems to have just calmed a little. but with the wind behind forest i i would think leicester would be expecting a lot of pressure. whitlow and his colleagues have looked good under any kind of pressure that forest have managed to exert so far. it won't be a problem for phillips slotting in there a very good footballer. rozario finding collimore, that's a great turn by collimore my word the shot has actually gone into the second tier of the stand behind the goal. and having done so beautifully in the buildup how did he get it so wrong with the shot? i think we'll see a lot of this the second half. rozario looking for the first flick on as you say. he's leaning well back there. there was a suggestion he might just have got you know as he went past the defender here collimore. i mean his first touch is decent he's gone past there's a suggestion i think that he he could have gone down. there may have been free kick there. but he looks as if he was still left with a shooting chance. could even you know have possibly have driven it another yard, taken it a yard further and killed the keeper off. i think we'll see a lot of that this half now the ball up and rozario winning his share of flick on headers. and that fellow trying to pounce and everything. colin hill injured. still has that remarkable record of not having missed a single game since he signed for leicester from sheffield united. he was the only player who played in every single match last season. leicester fans taking every single vantage point they can around the ground. and of course they have a marvellous view of the beautiful new stand that we're sitting in. hill fit to continue here for leicester. greyson forward won back by chettle. responsibility on chettle now in the second half having lost his er partner defence cooper. how unlucky for poor old cooper finally getting back into the side and then not lasting more than forty five minutes cos of that shoulder injury. thomson volleys it forward to jochim taken off him by phillips. gemmell gary crosby gets his first touch taken off him by lewis. thomson invites ormanroyd to move forward and he drives it on and as he did so presume the referee has whistled for a free kick for the challenge by gemmell, yes he has. forest think they got an offside decision out of that but the whistle had er gone before that. and the impressive neil lewis will take the kick. ormanroyd the target and he wins it. chettle gets it away to rozario. he's done well here rozario he's done really well. invites black to move forward and that was good defending from greyson. chettle wins it back and straight away gives possession back to leicester. good work by chettle. lewis agnew and he's dispossessed by gemmell but whitlow to leicester's rescue. er late challenge there by thomson caught stone free kick to forest. taken by phillips looks for pearce left oldfield wins it back for leicester though. well you wouldn't have fancied that as a goalkeeper would you pearce suddenly came flying in on ward. and a foul by whitlow on rozario and pain written all over robert rozario's face and we saw that the last time we had a nottingham forest live game when he collided with a post up at bolton wanderers and had to go off with a rib and facial injuries. booking there for whitlow. incidentally the crowd here today just over seventeen thousand. i think that makes it the best of the season at filbert street. and that's the fourth caution of the game. still one nil to leicester david speedy the scorer. ron. yeah i was just looking at erm i thought that was quite a bit of resolute defending there from er whitlow. erm i'm not too sure whether rozario may not have just caught his studs in the ground and tweaked a knee something like that. i don't think the actual impact of the tackle has caused that problem. well it's if there's anything wrong with rozario they are in trouble forest. they've already lost the centre half the last thing they want to happen is to lose a centre forward. neil webb is the remaining substitute as well as substitute goalkeeper mark crossley and frank clarke must be thinking how many more injuries am i gonna get this season. rozario limps on but he doesn't look too comfortable. free kick taken by phillips and wasted by him. and rozario looks in trouble at the moment he is just er limping around he's sunk back to his er hands on his knees again and well look at that he you don't really need words to describe how he must be feeling at the moment. laws swings it in flicked away gemmell gets it back and now pearce black outside him and it goes in long towards collimore. good work by gavin ward. most significant thing about that cross that kingsley black was er like you say was rozario was twenty yards outside the penalty box and that should be his territory, big hanging c crosses like that. i would think frank clarke would probably give him another minute or so to see if he can run it off. if not he'll whip er webby on and put probably put crosby up front. just put webby on the right-hand side of midfield and put little gary crosby up the middle where he's played a few times for forest. or more than a few times actually. so only neil webb left if you discount the goalkeeper and i remember the last time we did that forest live game up at bolton forest had to use their both their substitutes in that game as well quite early on. hope they don't think we're an unlucky omen for them. and that's a foul by greyson on stone free kick to nottingham forest and rozario has gone not gone down but he's holding his leg again inside the penalty area and er he's not a happy . i think he might have to come off soon. and stones free kick wasted but they can try again. black rozario's just limping now he's virtually a passenger and er i would think forest have got a difficult decision to make a moment or two. they couldn't half do with a goal now. collimore got round ormanroyd and into the box and a great effort . my word that would have been a spectacular goal. oh the big man's desperately unlucky there isn't he? as you say he he's gets ormanroyd just drags it past him and then he does er agnew coming in he just him. a little a little flip above the keeper bounces off the crossbar. that would have been a super piece of front play. but it's a rozario's got to come off now at the moment he's just er a big sums it up there . that's his frustrations when you're having problems but er it looks as though he's got to come off rozario. yes he c he can barely walk at the moment rozario never mind run. so you can imagine frank clarke thinking well we've got the wind behind us we've gotta put a lot of high balls into the box and he is very important to us but at the moment he's not making the box. i mean the big fellows here they've got to try and run it off or give it a tug and come off come off and get the er the sub on. important period for forest to keep pressing on if they're gonna have to make another change. black gets it into the box rozario got a header in but even as he headed the ball he limped away again and if he'd have been properly fit then he would have really powered that one in. but at some times your dilemma as a manager you say think well can he just stay on and nick us a goal knowing full well that if if he has he comes off it makes them fairly lightweight. one nil to leicester city eleven minutes gone in the second half. it's certainly been an eventful match this one way and another. and an enjoyable match frankly there's always er something happening it's lively. pearce finds rozario he's still limping away whenever he er comes into play like that. lewis finding greyson. jochim almost nipped in there between chettle and tommy wright. good atmosphere here, two of the midlands biggest clubs in the first division. good header on by ormanroyd it's gone over speedy's head cleared by david phillips but only to lewis. agnew oldfield good ball. ormanroyd onto speedy again phillips takes it off him and forest get the throw in. and it looks now down on the bench which is er just down beneath our commentary position here as though neil webb is taking off his er track suit and will come on shortly. they've signalled to the referee now rozario'ssozario's ew try and run it off or yes they push er crosby has gone up front erm with collimore and stone's come out on the right-hand side. good break by black but the final shot wasn't too clever. webb's taken more of his er custom central midfield ron. i mean the one thing that neil webb can do, as you say he he's missed a lot of football he played against our reserves thursday night, but the one thing he can do if he get an opportunity he can produce a telling ball. i mean in in the midweek game against us he had very little play and then he produced one ball that got them an equalizer and i suppose that's what frank would look for now. well played whitlow a lot of ball back to lewis as er a bit half and half. it's come back to him again. chance down by stone. leicester city's throw-in. certainly one thing is noticeable leicester haven't er quite dropped back into the gear they were in in the first half ron have they? no i think er the that forest have put a bit of a press on them. i think the wind is definitely playing a part. you know it's sometimes it's hard as they get the ball so far forward. erm i did feel that leicester i think if they can s if they can withstand this little bit of pressure now they'll get a si a situation where they can start rolling the ball again and get their play going. but it is important from their point of view they they sort of hold this pressure at bay. here's pearce webb knocked back towards pearce who wins the header cleared by hill. well that was a typical forest move of old wasn't it? pearce a little square ball webby plays the one two and pearce doesn't stop his running keeps his run going. that was forest in their pomp. considering the disruptions forest have had to er undergo here they're getting back into this game impressively at the moment. but they're still a goal down. collimore stone won it back brilliantly off lewis but it came to nothing. thomson this is hill and that's a disappointing ball straight on to chettle's head. you see the difference there was thomson pulled for a short ball there and he was ignored. whereas in the first half they virtually tried to play through thomson on everything. nottingham forest have only won three of their eleven league games this season four drawn four defeats and only one away win. two one at luton. there's only about er what is it four teams below them in the table at the moment and a defeat today would be a serious blow for them. but crosby almost released stone then into a good position and you have to say forest have certainly had the best of this second half. now then oldfield's got the legs to bring leicester clear on the break here and that excellent play by oldfield. ormanroyd he's still going and still the shot blocked agnew has his shot blocked as well. leicester have their best little spell of the half now. oldfield and he wins the corner off brian laws. well that's what leicester needed really to relieve the pressure. yeah he did exceptionally well in the early part of the move. he pick a ball up oldfield carried it along way with pace and power and then just kept his retained the ball for his side. in draws ormanroyd near post and he's flicked it straight across the danger area. gemmell just kept in by crosby and it comes again to gemmell. it's a poor ball though by scott gemmell giving possession by to greyson and now jochim. thomson lewis he's so direct this lad you have to check though as gemmell action stride for stride. now ormanroyd in towards speedy far post to speedy. black brings it clear for nottingham forest. collimore's drifted out to the left. this is whitlow play getting congested into the middle third of the field at the moment. ormanroyd familiar leggy run of his turns it back to lewis, speedy let it run on to jochim. superb play by jochim and he couldn't finish it off. that's some brilliant understanding between the two front players there. lined up each other off th off the ball and then a little dummy by er speedy. look at this they're dead in line they know what they're doing he's dummied the ball there jochim's rolled his his marker very very well. got it back across the other fella really couldn't quite get enough power on the shot. but great link up play from front players that. offside collimore. and incidentally going back to that shot by jochim in the end the referee gave a free kick against him for er presumably fouling the defender which seemed a harsh decision. well that's very harsh particularly in view of the stick the forwards have to take . i think he rolled the defender superbly there. ormanroyd towers above everyone knocks it down to thomson pearce whips it away. stone whitlow to lewis and now agnew. twenty five minute remaining at filbert street. leicester who may move into third position, depends on that milwall er middlesbrough game but could move high in the table if they win here today are still leading one nil. thomson greyson and on it goes to agnew speedy in the middle ormanroyd arriving but a cross never came. yeah but the signs are encouraging again for leicester aren't they? the the spell that er forest had straight after the interval looks to have been weathered. i mean that's not to say they're not still a threat but at the moment er leicester are starting to boss the game again and that's the important to them. neil webb a little lay-off to gemmell and on it goes to black and further still to crosby. collimore in the middle don't forget to take the ball and finally whips it in towards collimore and lewis heads it back in that direction and ormanroyd with an awkward clearance. thomson gets it away and forest exert pressure again. pearce intelligent ball for phillips back in it goes to collimore and a header down drops to crosby thomson arrives to dispossess him and knocks it first time for jochim. good work by chettle. over the roof of the stand and into the street outside. they can't score from there. so a new ball lewis this his third chance stone has found him in the end. has a very calm nature and er explosive turn of pace and all round looks very promising this nineteen year old who's made only about half a dozen appearances in the first team. played in three of the last four games in fact. thomson's free kick pearce gets it clear and then won back by hill but has only gone back to the forest skipper. whitlow's been very very good at the heart of leicester's defence today and that was an important header he won then. and again shout of hand ball and that's how the referee read it. gemmell the culprit. been a lot of crucial areas this afternoon alan but i for me i think by and large leicester have always had the edge in midfield. erm if you like th the four including ormanroyd have always been have always been more dominant that the forest er midfield quarter. still plenty of time for this game to go either way though. one nil leicester twenty four minutes completed in the second half. and leicester understandably though not legally taking their time there. it's good play from whitlow and fine ball for lewis thomson now ormanroyd, laws blocks the er ball and that's a throw in to leicester. yes they've done that very intelligent leicester. when they're under pressure they've always changed it normally change the play normally out with his left-hand side. but this young boy's got a lot of space. hasn't done particularly well with that one possession. but he's had a lot of space and he's by and large used it very very well. game just having one of those little quiet periods but i'm sure it's only seconds away from igniting again here. phillips what a wonderful ball that almost turned out be there because er crosby had it not been a better defender would have been in behind whitlow. here's thomson ormanroyd phillips again to laws. good brave header by lewis and he was caught by stone. free kick to leicester city. as you say sho showed great courage there the kid didn't he? thought the referee was a bit hasty pulling player back cos leicester had got good possession. lewis takes the free kick himself it wasn't a good one dropped in short and was headed away by gemmell to black who releases it first time trying to set collimore free. two defenders and he's still got the ball and almost got a corner out of it. a little disagreement between him and simon greyson, words spoken no problem. pearce cleared by lewis good ball by phillips, scott gemmell. easy one for ormanroyd but he's headed it straight to forest black, pearce continues his run into the box and a headed came in from crosby. well i think gary crosby if he looks at that'll think he possibly should have scored then. i mean that's some good build up play nice little touch out there a good curling ball in from black and that's a decent chance. not an easy one by any stretch of the imagination but it's one if you're looking desperately for an equalizer you'd be hoping to score from. nice little touch on by speedy pearce wins it back and there's speedy again trying to release jochim. phillips across and made a very important little touch to get it er out of play. awkward one there thomson and whitlow, not whitlow er greyson i should say. now hill ward lashes at it but he er made a good contact. ormanroyd under pressure from stone, moores comes in and free kick has gone leicester's way and er poor old frank clarke has found a mountain of problems at nottingham forest as he took over in the summer. a lot of them off the field which have got nothing of course to do with him. things that have happened long before he got involved with the club and then all the problems on the field with performances results and injuries. i think most people in the game will feel a great deal of sympathy for frank who's one of er the games gentlemen certainly. webb trying to release collimore now, whitlow who er has had a wonderful game for by money wins it back. no offside given there surprisingly as black turns it in and whitlow's there to win it again. but now the shot by gemmell and the rest of the players of and the bench are curious they thought they should have had an off should have had an offside in that er buildup. lewis er jochim rather laws wins it back now webb crosby making a good run and he releases it but it was well read by greyson. now oldfield for leicester. he's brilliant when he gets going like this. ormanroyd and he's got round laws and pulls it back into the danger area but the cross defended well. webby collimore good ball. still one nil to leicester fifteen minutes to go. black in possession for forest now pearce gemmell webb shot block by jochim. this is stone and he's got round lewis and done well here stone and the goalkeeper makes a good interception in the near post. well to be fair that's that's a little bit of bright er attacking there from stone. i don't think lewis er thought stone was capable of doing this you know and he's got into a great situation there. really it's hard there was there wasn't too much space for him to squeeze the ball back but he's got to be looking to put the ball back from there. oldfield find agnew. he's gone well here agnew tried to curl a shot in it was blocked back to ormanroyd now lewis. poor cross and a very good clearance laws finding collimore. oh it was a bit ambitious. i think the defenders have done well there you know. they forced him across the pitch they forced him onto his right-hand side collimore which isn't his best side and they've managed t they've managed to frustrate him at his shooting at a distance. i think stan if he'd looked at that situation again would probably have wanted to go at the first defender an and gone and gone up the left side. and you still get the impression this game is far from won yet by leicester. free kick has been given for a foul on oldfield. frank clarke is on his feet in exasperation at that decision. thomson knocks it in quickly headed away by phillips. now webb for forest. good ball good tackle again by whitlow and how often have i said that today and it's not long for collimore. chance here for forest perhaps collimore pulls it back but then couldn't either get a shot or a pass it effectively. once again i don't really think stan collimore had the had reason to pull that back you know. i mean he saw he sh great pace was shown then it was a nothingy ball that he made into a good situation. i really think he should have been going to try on a left footed shot from there. jochim to speedy on to ormanroyd thomson and again greyson gets it back from oldfield. this is neat football by leicester, agnew and they've gotta throw it. er twelve minutes to go a little over. leicester city one nottingham forest nil. thomson for leicester lewis who's lost out there. webb takes over three against three at the moment though leicester getting men back quickly. collimore he's turned and found some room for himself. knocks it in and er once again i have to say whitlow did well. yes i think that's the sort of thing when you're a defender the goalkeeper s the goalkeeper's almost on it but if you're not sure you get rid of the thing and then say turn round to the keeper sorry pall but i'm playing safe. because that fellow stone wasn't far short of the the ball from collimore. i notice leicester have got er gary mills ready on the touch line seemingly about to come on, though not yet. here's hill. central defenders have done a good job today for leicester of course i've put the curse on him saying that he knocks it straight out of play but er gary mills who's missed half a dozen games through injury is going to come on now and he's going to take the place of neil lewis. he's done really well lewis one or two exciting moments. maybe they felt his concentration had just waned a little bit late on but he's er he's had a good game he should be very pleased with his contribution. it's a smashing game. in fact i didn't think he'd done anything wrong you know. he didn't look to be under any pressure at all. i know the extra experience of er gary mills. the only thing about mills he's not natural left sided player. whether that will upset the balance at all because lewis was a very important for them he kept stepping in when they wanted to change play. yes certainly mills has er operated most of his life down the right-hand side. either right back or right midfield for leicester. well he's not exactly er too disappointed and he shouldn't be either the way he's played. here's thomson and mills gets his first touch, wasn't bad one cos agnew ran into that space well. gemmell's clearance whitlow down to ormanroyd, collimore did well to win it back and ormanroyd just got a foot in again. time running out here for forest we've got about nine minutes to play. they're one behind, collimore has the ball. he looks so good when he's going forward like this lays it off for crosby and clearance is lacked away by simon greyson. and the wind gets up again and the er chill factor i think is what they call it is considerable. maybe i need a vest now never mind some of the players. into collimore quickly once again by whitlow he came bravely to meet that. phillips too deep but hills hasn't got an easy ride here and in fact he's given away a corner it's good pressure. stewart pearce the captain's come forward for the kick taken by black. goes in high towards collimore who turns to the referee and claims that he was pushed as the corner came over. i really don't think he's got much of a claim there. you expect a little bit of jostling don't you when there's a crowd seen in the penalty box. pearce crosby and still disappointing end to a promising move. it's not a disappointing end to the game though is it alan? i think you know it's hard you g got to go with leicester at the moment because they're in the pole position and i have for my money been the better side but er forest do look capable of snatching an equalizer. they only have seven minutes in which to do so. ormanroyd that's a great header to win. oldfield hammering it on moores beats speedy to it and chettle gets it forward first time. well played mills and well played phillips at the other end. but thomson wins the throw in. well if there are many days like this at filbert street i think a few er underground heaters in the new stand would be suitable. knocked forward by gemmell to collimore six minutes to go. forest still a goal behind stan collimore in possession. heads it towards stone but he couldn't control that. agnew gets it clear to ormanroyd. and phillips has done well. what a good professional he is he's er slotted straight into this centre back roll as though he's been there all his life. oldfield off he goes again on another march forward thomson no free kick given pearce in possession he clashes with agnew and oldfield brings the ball down. i think the leicester have got a point there. i think scott gemmell virtually picked the ball up. leicester are forced another throw in then. five minutes to go leicester city one nottingham forest nil. and leicester to get the win that will keep them right up amongst the leading clubs. can forest snatch a draw? or better? again moores wins it again whitlow defends superbly. thomson then knocking it long and speedy couldn't get there ahead of chettle. spot on about whitlow he hasn't missed much at all has he? stuck at his task very very resiliently. here's pearce crosby and now collimore taken off him by agnew. that was a good tackle but he's given it straight to pearce. in it goes towards webb, bit of a flying swan act by webb inside the penalty area but forest keep the er period of pressure going here. in a desperate hurry to get the ball and the er ball boy's not in a desperate hurry to give it them back . phillips knocking it into collimore. collimore's done well,webb . that might have been the moment forest drew level. i must confess the moment er stan collimore set it up for webb, i mean it's a nice ball he does brilliant here colin, checks the and shapes a nice little ball into webby's path and the one thing webby's still got he's he's got good feet. i fancied webby to score there i must confess. here's thomson speedy wants it played into the area and get it. couldn't quite control it. webb again good ball out to pearce black outside him oldfield makes sure he doesn't have too much room. now chettle pearce collimore good running by collimore and a scramble on the edge of the penalty area. finally it comes to stone ormanroyd did superbly well there. stone and ormanroyd again and he prevents it a corner. it's a throw in. jimmy greaves man of the match? man of the match david oldfield al i think he's had a good game agnew's played well, lewis. been one or two good players today but er over ninety minutes this man very impressive. fair enough i must say i'd have given it to whitlow myself but it doesn't really matter as far a leicester fans are concerned as long as they can hold on here for another two minutes now. not a very good free kick by mills. it's hand ball by stone surely. thought he placed his hand on the ball anyway he's got away with it and phillips at the other end is under pressure from speedy and that's a corner off chettle. that might be enough for leicester might just give them the time. breath in concentrate again keep the ball in the forest half and edge a few seconds closer to victory. thomson floats it in straight into the hands of tommy wright who hits it first time quite sensibly but a bit too strongly straight back to his opposite number. minute to go. mills in possession for leicester. hill and whitlow taking a few chances in their own half and finally whitlow's dispossessed and it comes to collimore. and still collimore and then hill has to concede the corner. and leicester were their own worst enemies then because hill and er whitlow just got in a mess. the corner's been quickly taken and knocked in long but cleared again by leicester. and black goes down theatrically on the edge of the box and nothing has been given and gemmell took a chance then he er overplayed his protest to the referee. wall comes in again ormanroyd gets it clear and then it's blast away by greyson as we move into stoppage time. mills gets it clear chettle chasing hard concedes the throw. i actually i'd like to see that again. i actually think black was fouled but as you say he makes a bit of a song and dance about it. no but i don't know i've seen them given. yeah delayed reaction and i'll tell you gemmell was lucky then because he er he made contact with the referee in making his protest and they normally stamp down on that one but mr kirby has been er a lenient official today. tremendous noise now around filbert street as leicester's seventeen thousand crowd here believe they're on their way to a very important victory over nottingham forest. we've had almost a minute of stoppage time and leicester lead by that single david speedy goal from what seems a long time ago now in the first half. still not over. collimore's given it away to oldfield though. speedy with a lay off and thomson does well and gets it back to speedy, jochim in the middle agnew arriving he'll keep it er near the corner flag i think. yes. black comes to take it off him. they're running out of time here but he finds collimore with an excellent ball. leicester have got so many men back in their own half he'll do well to make anything of this collimore. and he has done well but then runs into trouble in the considerable shape of ormanroyd who knocks it long. mills making the run chettle gets there first. we've had not almost two minutes of stoppage time. still one nil leicester. stone for forest webb keeps it in play and turns it back to phillips and then hill with a lovely little header back to make sure leicester keep possession. calm it down says gavin ward. quite right. speedy could his goal now prove to be the winner? certainly looking that way by forest are not giving up until that final whistle. oldfield did well to ride that challenge from pearce. and that's the final whistle it's all over and leicester city have gained a very very hard won victory here over nottingham forest by one goal to nil. david speedy's goal enough to get all three points for leicester and i think on the balance of play they just about edged it but forest put up a marvellous performance in the second half especially when they had to make er changes and things didn't go well for them. forest are not happy with the referee at all about certain things there. but let's hear the views of leicester's brian little. brian obviously a very important win for you but there were some close shaves for you in the second half. yes a tough game. i mean you know colin moore's such a handful really i mean we're always worried every time he got the ball. i think the problems we have defence in the last couple of weeks i'm just pleased to have kept a clean sheet against them i think. you know young neil lewis coming in for a game like this is tremendous performance and michael whitlow and colin hill have been up against it but they've worked hard and i think it's been a great game and er one nil probably doesn't er justify both sides. i think that two two might just have been fair but whatever, as i said before the game, if we win we'll be delighted however it happens. well you got the win, well done. thank you. well more misery for forest another defeat more injuries less to go from strength to strength and we'll be right back. hello again. well we've heard brian little's point of view. he thought two two would have been a fairer reflection of the play. let's hear from frank clarke now with gary newbon. frank it's just not going for you. you must consider yourself very unlucky with that result. yes i thought we were er at the end of the game. erm unfortunately we didn't really start to play until leicester scored but from then on i thought we dictated the game. and er we played at a high tempo and we passed it and really dominated the rest of the game but our finishing could have been better. we didn't make enough of the opportunity that we had er in the attacking third. you know and if you don't score a goal then you don't win games. how frustrating is it getting for you? you seem to be going through everything this season it seems to be a nightmare for you at times. er i'm frustrated obviously but you know we all all managers go through this at some stage. er either sooner or later we've just got to keep going as i say. erm if they can keep putting that kind of performance on and showing that sort of commitment then we'd be all right. has all the nonsense off the field distracted you at all, made your h job harder? no not at all. that's er had no affect on on me doing the job in any way. and how difficult is it all these midland local midland matches because the midlands teams are finding it hard to get near the top. oh that's difficult for us all. er you know we have a lot of derby games. but i mean that's the sort of thing we've just got to deal with you know we can't do anything about that. we can't say er we can't ask to be in a different division to notts county and derby and leicester. we're in the division there with them and we've we've got to try and win enough of them to get ourselves into a charging position. well they couldn't score in the premier league last season which is why they came down, they still can't score. we it's simple. i mean what what frank said there is true but they've g not got any finishers apart from stan collimore. you wouldn't back any well you made the score against any of them and i'm sat in the studio here. but they apart from stan don't look like scoring and er this here is an example of of really superb play. and a player who was desperately unlucky on the day not to get the equalizer because he's taken two players on he knows what he's doing there he deliberately did that and was very unfortunately. er but you get the feeling that if he doesn't score then as i said nobody else can. we know gary ball's out i don't know how long for but i think frank will seriously have to look to give this lad some support because he he's doing great up there on his own there's no doubt about that. that's real good skill that. that's that's a wonderful piece of football and and it deserved a goal. but unfortunately it wasn't it wasn't to be. he also he also did create chances for other players around him but i don't mind what you well this is why say if if you leave one player up front on his own he can't prosper indefinitely . well this is what i'm saying ton you and i have been saying it during the game that that the other players can't score goals it's as simple as that. if collimore don't score it doesn't really look as though anybody else is going to. okay but we have plenty more goals around the first division yesterday and you'll be able to see those in a couple of moments. right too many of our teams are in the lower reaches of the first division. only leicester and derby in challenging positions. here's the full story now beginning at the baseball ground. you could have been excused for believing that maradonna had made a come back. tommy johnson needed the hand of god to evade nigel martin in goal. he looked sheepish as herts scored martin was anything but as the goal stood. that apart derby are unstoppable at home and it must be some consolation to arthur cox that the twelve million pound team he assembled at last looks the part. there's never been much doubt about kitson. crystal palace are terrifying on paper at least although the heavier grounds may already be finding them out. not that armstrong appeared to be unduly troubled. he did well to hook in his tenth of the season. as we've often said derby can look shaky with the two goal lead. once it evaporated and darren wassle was eventually dismissed for a crime which bore no resemblance to the magnitude of the sentence, well palace must have fancied their chances. if they did pembridge exploded that cosy little notion. they're the only hundred percenters at home in the division. we detected a buzz about wolves last week which had a lot to do with the rediscovered youth of cyril regis. what is he on? regis outrunning overson to give kelly his chance. so jack hayward's tribute to graham turner and the club programme looked fully justified but began to wear thin. paul cook's lovely ball to andy thomson, a penalty by the midfielder who can only command a weekly contract, did his and turner's cause no good at all. within a minute the same paul cook was discharging another defence splitting ball, unfortunately it was his own defence and mike could only beat out martin carruthers' shot into the path of mark steen as we know. that can seriously damage your health. county's home form is one of the best in the country so portsmouth were grateful for this deflection which disturbed steve cherry's equilibrium. only two minutes left when richard walker popped up on the proverbial back stick, sounds painful doesn't it, and it was for portsmouth. lyndon hooper another canadian from the same backwater as was playing his first full game for birmingham. but oh dear what a gift. kirk wasn't about to look a gift horse not with peterborough so desperate for points. even when dave macdonald was sent off for a second bookable offence the blues were incapable of taking the advantage. macdonald thought ted mcmain had made a quarter pounder of it. ted didn't agree. desperation in the air at oxford. we know they can play this game but the defence is shocking. it's not everyone who contrive to lose at home to luton. sunderland's home record is excellent and albion came as close as anyone to frustrating them. not close enough though and they're now in the bottom three. in the non-midlands games there was a breathtaking finish at vicarage road where bruce rioch's team were three goals up at one stage. two of them came in the first half as bolton tore watford to shreds. mcateer with the first and the second was entirely down to lee who exploited the goalkeeper's crumbling self-confidence. why bolton weren't playing in white is an interesting trivia question. don't have the answer i'm afraid and neither did poor old shepherd when they came plundering again early in the second half. season before halloween, what's it coming to. it all changed dramatically with twenty minutes to go. the moral don't wait for the ref's whistle. he played the advantage and porter began the only hat-trick of his career in his benefit season with watford. bolton were never the same after that. normally a very difficult side to beat but not yesterday. porter says he likes having a pop at goal but yesterday they all went in. the equalizer was cutting things a bit fine. only eight minutes to go when ken , ex peterborough of course, was awarded the freedom of the wanderer's half. and we were down to sixty seconds when the referee did watford another favour spotting an elbow in the face and sticking to his guns. porter has played over three hundred games for his club but there is no sweeter moment that this. here comes one of the most exciting games in the division which is remarkable considering they nearly dropped out of sight last season and sold stan collimore this. brit angel's opener was a prelude to the ricky otto show. he can't offer him a challenge like that. and i get the impression he almost meant it. well he certainly meant this, a lethal finisher but fortunately for southend nobody seems to have caught on yet. they will. and just for your information there was another penalty to end on. do you want to see it? oh here it is then. nothing much to add except that redfern scored but it didn't really matter. a fine win at grimsby for the chart topers from south london. the goal itself was nothing to write home about, had a slow motion feel to it but charlton are the most consistent side in the endsleigh league. and that's why they're top. well we complete our look at the weekend's first division action with brief highlights of this afternoon's milwall versus middlesbrough game. middlesbrough starting the day in the top three. the commentators john helm and theo foley. instinctively out to barber, three men up around the edge of the area. floats it in towards kennedy the chance must be here for ray it's there and it's kennedy . alex ray into the middle but i'm sure kennedy got the final touch. er it's gonna be a great moment. let's just have a look at this one again. milwall have the lead that's the important thing here it came over at the far side of the penalty area,had got up for it ray and the kennedy there was also a middlesbrough foot in there. milwall just caught sleeping for a moment can get a good ball in for here and hendry it's an own goal . could well go down as a second own goal of the match. it was john hendry who got the shot in on goal but the ball flew into milwall's net off phil barber. no doubt about that one. no come off the throw in as you rightly said john. very simple throw in and er i thought milwall just weren't geared up on that one at all. and er i fancy middlesbrough will be the happier of the two with a point if that's the way it does turn out. he's onside here this might be the moment for kennedy he's bundled out of it by white. white's in real trouble now, surely this is er a sending off offence. kennedy was through white balked him without question a yard outside the area and derek white who was booked only moments ago i'm sure could be on his way to the dressing room early. he is. he takes off john the arm band l and derek white is sent off. definite foul no hesitation whatsoever. well it would be a dramatic finish here at milwall if they could snatch it now. the chip is just a fraction too high. that sending off the referee obviously wasn't mr assan maca. anyway that's the top of division one. middlesbrough stay third leicester move up to fourth, good news for them games in hand. but the bottom doesn't look so rosy does it jim? look west brom no it don't does it? peterborough oxford at the bottom. there's only barnsley. not not of our ilk . never mind never mind. yes frightening no we'll have to put that right. plenty of time to go. right there was a mixed er bag of results for english clubs in the european competitions this week as i'm sure you noticed. among the more satisfied will be aston villa whose one one draw with currently spain's hottest club er certainly sets them up nicely for a place in the third round of the uefa cup. and the game in has surely marked the emergence of a new villa star. phil mepham reports. this was a save that could well have shaped the whole of villa's season. roberto what a save. a fabulous stop from bosnich . he's struck it well enough roberto and then his european debut a terrific stop. and that's going to lift bosnich and villa no end. the performance of mark bosnich in spain on tuesday was the highlight of a supreme team display. but bosnich has been hailed now as an overnight success. it's overnight success though that has taken years of dedication to achieve. i've made some well some very big sacrifices especially early on in my career when nobody would have known that i was probably even in the country. and this is nice to know that there is sometimes if you put your head down and work hard at something there is something at the end of the rainbow. what sort of sacrifices did you have to make when you were quotes an unknown then? erm well just the obvious ones. first of all leaving such a beautiful country and leaving all my family coming over here to a foreign environment to a different world. the football world is a completely different world even it's different to what people would be used to you know here. and er coming through all the problems with the work permit and er again things that weren't in my hands. and er you know the cold there was a lot of things. there was a whole lot of things. there were so many times i felt like just packing it in and going home. bosnich's rise to prominence was one of those cruel twists of fate on which careers can be accelerated or halted. a month ago nigel spink was villa's first choice but at birmingham at the coca cola cup spink was injured and bosnich took over amidst some prophetic words. well spinks did well to win the place from the young australian this season with bosnich having been the man in possession of the goalkeeper's gloves most of last season. so he'll be anxious to make the most of this unexpected opportunity. he did just six minutes later. it's been saved by the stand-in goalkeeper. bosnich the hero. the one thing we're always reluctant to talk about is young goalkeepers. i mean i normally in the past i've always gone for experienced keepers because you know i mean they they don't come to their prime until, i don't think goalkeepers over twenty six twenty seven onwards. er but he is an exceptional young keeper and er i mean his nerve and his experience and his maturity sometimes is unreal. i think he impressed the inter milan coach as well when they played didn't he? no a c he played oh a c a c milan and cappello the er milan manager has gone on record as saying he's as good as anything he's ever seen. in many ways bosnich has become the recent victim of his own success. he's to play for australia next week in a world cup qualifier. he was desperate to play but reluctant to leave villa. it was a decision which tormented him but was faced purely and simply because mark bosnich is now regarded as one of the best around. i'll still come back say two or three afternoons here and practice things that i'm weak on just and er tho tho those sacrifices where i stop until i erm sort of fuel all the ambitions i've got in the game. do you feel at this point in time that it's all been worth it? at er well this week you sort of look back and say yeah but erm in about ten years time if you come and ask me the same question i would be able be in a better position to give you an answer. i bet he watches home and away. how good is he? well he's he's obviously a very good keeper. we we saw him come on against birmingham about a month or so ago and save that penalty and it's ironic that that's how nigel spinks started at at villa wasn't it when he came on for jimmy rimmer and if bosnich does the same job as what nigel's done over the past ten years then no one 's going to argue. but he he does look a very good goalkeeper. well let's let's have a look at him again. yeah. erm and try and work out what it is about well again ironically a penalty save that obviously always makes a goalkeepers name it was a super save. this actually was the game against birmingham and here he comes out fearlessly spreads himself beautifully and robs of a goal there. er he's he's this type of goalkeeper. you would obviously say yes he's got a big future and that save in corinia was a was a lifesaver for villa. could be the passport. well if mark bosnich was the man of the moment in midweek the name on everyone's lips during the week during sorry during the last twenty four hours has been bobby gould. gould resigned as coventry city's manager within minutes of their five one thrashing at queens park rangers yesterday. he asked his chairman for a private chat they retired to the gents and gould who had no contract said he was finished. this afternoon gould insisted that he wouldn't be changing his mind. now he is a bit of an off the wall manager isn't he jimmy. i wonder if he really is serious and what's behind it? it's odd because i was watching him on football focus yesterday, him and bob wilson, and i was trying to stay awake you don't watch that do you? and and i actually succeeded. and he looked in quite good form did bob and he didn't look as though he had too many worries and then this happens and you wonder just whether it wasn't premeditated rather than in haste. and i would tend to think personally that he won't be back. so we'll see. well maybe he's er got a contract to appear on the media. we'll have to see. possibly with you ton. who knows? anyway there's more football coming your way on central in midweek. on tuesday at eleven forty exclusive highlights from the third round of the coca cola cup featuring aston villa at sunderland. and then on wednesday at ten forty five more coca cola cup action this time with derby against spurs and manchester united against leicester. they top the bill. and then again next sunday at two fifty the central match live moves onto st andrews for birmingham city against milwall. i hope it's as good a game as today's was. well done to david speedy well done to leicester city. see you next week bye bye. had her operation and that everything's going well, and i'm sure will take our best wishes to her, when er, he goes home after the meeting. well, this morning, er, you know all know colin, there's er no need for me to spend a lot of time introducing him to you. he's been here several times before, and er, we do look forward to having another interesting morning with you, and i understand that er, you're going to give us a musical morning, this morning, and er, sing to us. not going to sing. i promise not, well i might get carried away. alright, well. it's all over to you then, colin. thank you. welcome here. erm, i'm going to er talk to you this morning, and invite comments this morning, about anthems of the nations. it's erm, a hand-book study from last year's hand-book, and erm, the reason i picked it, i think is is two-fold. first, the first reason, er is entirely coincidental. i was approached in this room about erm, twelve months ago, by francis and tricia erm, to ask if i would make a programme out for their group. the gardeners group. and i wrote down, that they were on a doing anthems of the nations. when i asked them about it later, they said, oh no, we have no intention of doing anthems of the nations, perhaps you would like to do it for us. so i was landed, hoist with my own petard, if you like. landed with that topic. having discovered that, i was then, in april of last year, in france, in strasbourg, strasbourg is leicester's twin city in france, and as i was wondering through near to the cathedral in strasbourg, i found a book a book-shop, a second- hand book shop. thumbed through some papers that they have got, in front of the shop, and found one set of erm, papers from nineteen thirty-six concerned the french national anthem, and i thought that was a second amazing coincidence, er, and so i had to buy myself that that set of papers for about a pound. and it really was quite interesting. so what i propose to do this morning, is to talk erm, based on the notes from the hand-book about anthems of the nation, but to spend probably more time, talking about the french national anthem, than about any others, because i know a little bit about it, and i have discovered even more. no prizes then, for guessing that that was the british national anthem, erm, god save the king as it was, or was it originally god save the queen, it was king, er when you grew up yeah. and then, then the queen. erm, and it was interesting that there was always a tendency to stand up, wasn't there. yeah. yeah. because i think in the so called good old days, you always did stand up when you heard the national anthem played. and i remember one or two who used to sit do , keep seated, you know, just to as a sign, yes, yes, as a protest. i don't know what it was. as a protest. yes, as a protest against it. oh, i didn't think of it, you know mm. you know when you when you, at the end of the film, you all done it, didn't you. yes, yes. there was a time when you couldn't go through a week, perhaps couldn't even going through a day, without hearing the british national anthem somewhere. the radio, television, the radio used to close down, the television used to close down, if if you were up late enough at night, with that with that national anthem. and erm, the the radio was the same. at the end of the film, or at the beginning, yeah. at the beginning. at the beginning. yes, yes, yes, it used, mm, it us . but there was a time when you always, you always have it at the beginning or any er programme. well, i think that started in the black-out, you know, because, we had to, if the sirens went, you know, we had to stop in the yeah, yeah, yes, yes. so the in the cinemas, i mean, it changed. it ch it changed, didn't it, there was the there was a great change, that meant that people no longer heard it at at the same time. they heard it at the beginning rather than at the end. it then gradually disappeared. the only time you hear it now, is on sporting occasions, i should think. yeah. yes, that's right. perhaps before the queen's speech on don't forget the command performance. yes, yeah, and command performances, and things like that. erm, i don't suppose anybody knows who wrote the natio national anthem. er, rupert's scratching his head, he he thinks he knows. before his time. no, it isn't. it's not known with any degree of certainty, erm, there was some indication by someone writing at the end of the last century, that it was written by someone in the time of the queen elizabeth, hence, perhaps it was god save the queen. a man by the name, would you believe of doctor john bull. bull. now whether that's true or not, i don't know. the writer of the words was possibly henry carey, henry carey and he was an english poet and composer and he wrote various erm, bits of erm music, words. he wrote farces, he wrote burlesques, he wrote songs, and sometimes he wrote accompanying music for things going on on the stage, and apparently he also wrote sally in our alley. so if the story is correct, the writer of the music for the national anthem is the same as the composer of the music for sally in our alley. erm, originally is was sung in latin, in the time of the stuarts, and then, an er, after the exile of james the second, and english version appeared. i don't suppose you've ever heard it sung in latin, i certainly haven't. no. i wouldn't even know where to begin to find that that. erm, probably sing it in the er, catholic church. yes, they probably would sing it in latin in the catholic, they they certainly use erm, latin, and of course the words have changed depending whether it's a king or a queen on the s on on on the throne, and from, it's gone from god save our lord the king, to god save our gracious queen, and that came in, of course, in the time of victoria, and then had to be brought in again, er, at the time of erm, queen elizabeth. and what about some of the others. what what about anthems in general. they haven't always been national anthems, it's a relatively new thing, erm, i've mentioned elizabethan times, about four hundred years ago. er, it probably came into fashion in the, something like the eighteenth century. before the eighteenth century, there wasn't perhaps a national anthem, there wasn't such much of a er, national feeling, and so there was very little need to have a national anthem. so we're talking about the seventeen hundred, eighteen hundred, and it was very often known as a national song, and we had a national song, probably before any other country. it wasn't known as a national anthem, apparently until eighteen fifty-two. so before that it was a national song, and then it became a national anthem, eighteen fifty-two, before your time, i should think, eighteen fifty-two. yes just a little bit. just a, just a little bit. just a little bit. just a little bit. just a little bit. and then other countries started to get on the band-wagon and erm, find their own tunes. now the the tunes and the words vary enormously, and we shall have a chance to hear some of the tunes, certainly. sometimes the words are prayers. praying for the king, the queen, or whatever they have. sometimes they express patriotic sentiments. sometimes they refer to battles, or revolts, or revolutions. in the case of some of the, particularly recently made newly independent states, there is a whole idea of a revolutionary fervour. this is perhaps, particularly true of some of the anthems for the, erm, the african states. by contrast, some of the older countries, who got a history of calm and stability, they have anthems which try to bring out the beauty of the country. the natural beauty of the country. and again, you will hear from the differing music, the way in which er the anthems vary tremendously. the variety, there is a great variety, also of musical styles. god save the king, or god save the queen, as it is now, is stately, rhythmic you could march to it, but i was corrected at a recent meeting, to say that people don't march to it, but you could if you wanted to. so are marching songs, other have, er, others are very brisk marching songs. you'd practically have to run to keep up with with some of them. and some of the south american ones are rather more like opera, than national anthems, erm, and of course, sometimes you come across er tunes, which are i suppose, anthems. hardly national anthems, because if you think of the red flag, which is the communist anthem, it's not national, because it spreads throughout the whole of the world, for those people who are erm, red incline, communist incline, and if you think of europe, whatever you think of europe, there is a european anthem. you can't call it a national anthem, because it covers the the twelve or more states of the european union, as it is now, and do you know what that is, the the anthem for the european union. no. it's beethoven's ode to joy, the the last movement of beethoven's ninth symphony, erm,you'd know the tune, you'd recognise it, particularly if you had a better singer than me on as a accompaniment. encore. but that's erm, thank you, thank you. erm, that was, erm, that was also, that that that is the anthem for the european union, as it's now called. erm, and not only do they have the red flag, there is the, erm, the internationale for the the communist movement as well, and that apparently erm, was written by french workers in the nineteenth century, and it was used in russia until nineteen forty-four. so we have national anthems, and those are the ones we're gonna concentrate on. but there are sometimes, erm, anthems that are, not just for one nation, but for lots of nations. we've already mentioned that the british national anthem was played a lot at one time. this was, i suppose, the case, particularly during the war, the second world war, er, where it was used to promote a national feeling. and the , as i say, it must have been difficult to go through a day, between nineteen thirty-nine, and nineteen forty-five without hearing the national anthem somewhere, somehow. er, nowadays, it's very rarely heard. erm, i can't remember when i last heard the british national anthem, apart from the little excerpt i played just now. when did you last hear the queen's speech. birthday, queen's speech on christmas day, and er, it usually is the morning, isn't it, in the morning of the, er,prin the duke of edinburgh's birthday, the queen's birthday. in june. yes, in june. and sometimes on the queen mother's day. and on the queen, on the on the queen mother's birthday, yes, yes. you wouldn't hear it if you went to australia, would you, because they're trying to do away with that. quite typical at the end, isn't it. yeah. any idea where that on one is from. luxembourg not far away, belgium, actually, belgium. that's it, of . yes, yes, it's belgium, and you you may have heard again during sporting events, football matches, or or whatever it is. erm, written about a hundred and fifty years ago, during a struggle when belgium was trying to regain it's er, it's independence from holland. er, and it's sung in two languages, either in french, or in flemish, because they speak them both over there. erm, and the the verse, goes something this. oh, noble belgium, well beloved mother, to you our hearts and hands we give, to you our life lie, dedicating, together swearing you shall live, so again, it's a very patriotic feeling. erm, trying to engender that feeling in in the people who listen to it. any, oh, got th the beginning of the next one, any idea on that one? it's not the olympic one, is it. no, it's not, but it's canada. oh. it's canada, and you can almost hear,o canada yeah. if you if you happen to know where it fits it. you can almost hear that one. erm, and has, we haven't got anybody here who has relatives living in canada, erm, but once or twice i found that people recognised that because, they've been to canada, visit relatives and they they they they therefore know and they they've heard. i i i i thought i knew it, but i couldn't make out where i'd heard it. couldn't make, yes , yeah, it's the canadian one, the canadian one. this is a long long way away. that in fact is the chinese national anthem. i think we have to remember that that that these anthems are all played by the same military band, and therefore they're played in a western style. perhaps if you heard it in different circumstances,su , you know, surrounded by chinese people, then maybe you would begin to recognise it. but erm, it's called the march of the slaves, and it calls upon people, arise you who refuse to be slaves. there you are rupert, right up your streets, isn't it. you who refuse to be to be slaves. this is. the next one is a rather different one in style, not attempting to be so nationalistic, chauvinistic. not attempting to arouse er, peoples nationalistic feelings, but really looking at the country. they will be standing up for quite a long time. that's actually in two parts, as you heard, and the first part is very much trying to paint a picture, i think, trying to show how beautiful the country is, and we don't, i haven't told you yet which country it is. and the second one is just that little bit more lively, try to arouse people. storms must pass, sun will shine, slovaks shall waken. so it, it was, i suppose we have to say in the past tense, it was, the national anthem of czechoslovakia. now that they've split into two parts, erm, i don't know which one that belongs to. presumably the slovakian parts, since it, it urges the slovaks to awaken. the next one, a little bit further north, this time, and it's the danish national anthem, and it says, something like, king kristian stood beside the loch he masked in mist and smoke. so that one really is telling a story, commemorating something in danish history, when they were fighting for their for their freedom. dates probably from the eighteenth century, and apparently the danes also used the music to our national anthem at one stage. so our national anthem has been about a bit, particularly when you think that it came, probably came from, or was used in, erm a piece of music simply by haydn. so our national anthem is not ours alone, it's been borrowed, stolen, used by a number of other people. this is the next one, and you'll probably recognise this one. any prizes for that one? marseillaise. that was the marseillaise. that's right, yes. that's the french national anthem. er,an and as i say, that was that was one of the reasons mm. french national anthem. why i very much decided, i would er, investigate the whole business of national anthems, because erm, that supposedly, was written in strasbourg, not in paris oh. where you might think in the centre of france. erm, and it wasn't written in marseilles, although the marsei , the word marseillaise, might suggest it was written in marseilles. erm, it was called the marseillaise, erm, because the volunteers from marseilles came up from the south, and entered paris and they were singing, erm, this one. anybody know the name of the person who wrote words and music according to the story, according to the legend, of the marseillaise. it's a man called claude joseph, was his christian name, rouget de lisle, rouget de lisle, probably never heard of him. but er, but it it it the the if you look on the music, then you nearly always see his name, rouget de lisle. but he, that's his surname really. he was born in seventeen sixty, in the middle of france, really, erm, and he came from quite a large family. they had seven children in all, did his his family, and the the popular expression at the time was that their their family didn't grow vegetables, they grew children. quite a successful family. one of his brothers went into the navy and became very successful and very high up in maritime administration, another went into the army, and became a general. he himself went into the army, and erm, he was, he was born in a in a little village, and an article in the newspaper that i acquired in strasbourg, said that he was born in this little village lom le soniere his was born to life, but in strasbourg, where he wrote the national anthem, he was born to immortality. so his name stays forever in in in french people's minds. he went through military school and he decided that at point that he would acquired an extra name. so he was born de lisle, and it was at the point that he was in military school that he added the rouget, you know, like having a double barrelled name, in in our in our erm country, the same was there, he tacked on this name, because he thought it would sound better for an army officer to have a name like rouget de lisle, instead of just de lisle. i think it was his grandfather's name that he'd er, he'd acquired at at that at that time. he moved around france quite a lot, and not only was he a soldier, but he was writing comic operas and operas, and musicals and so on, and some of his work was pro produced and performed at the opera comic, in in france. he was a tall, red-haired man, according to the descriptions he had one shoulder higher than the other, but that didn't seem to prevent him being attractive to women. and we'll come back to that lat per perhaps it doesn't matter if you've got one shoulder higher, higher than the other. sorry about that. wh when he went into erm, when he went into strasbourg with the garrison, he was very well received, because he was an officer, he was a gentleman, he was a musician, he was a composer, and he became very friendly with the mayor of strasbourg, whose name was dietrich a very german sounding name, but don't forget that strasbourg is very near to the german border. the mayor of strasbourg, this man dietrich, baron, dietrich, used to do a lot of entertaining, and very often erm, rouget de lisle would be invited to join the company. also present, very often, was the choir master of strasbourg cathedral, whose name was ignas plielle so you had a number of musicians, and it was quite nice, because the wife of baron dietrich, was also interested in in music. war was declared on prussia and austria on the twentieth of april, in seventeen ninety-two. i bet you all knew that, didn't you. twentieth of april, seventeen ninety-two, france declared war on prussia and austria. it took four or five days for that news to reach strasbourg. sign of the times, isn't it. two hundred years ago it took five days for news to get from paris to strasbourg. now it's done in less than a second. things have changed enormously, but it's, so it took sometime for them to get to know that they, the french were at war with, the prussians and the austrians, and don't forget that strasbourg is only on the other side of the rhine from germany or whatever part of germany er, it was at the time. er, not prussia, that was a bit further away, but nonetheless, the threat was there. erm, there was a big reunion at the house of the mayor of strasbourg, baron dietrich, and they discussed a number of things, and one of the topics was raised was how coarse the revolutionary songs were. the revolution had taken place, the revolutioners had been singing songs, and one of the people present at this dinner, this banquet, said, what we need is something different, something new, we need a new war song. and er, baron dietrich called across to rouget de lisle, come on, captain, make us a war song. and in spite of his own protestations that he couldn't begin to do it, everybody pressed him, including madame dietrich, including the baron's wife, and she charmed him. so. rouget returned that evening to his rather humble lodgings in the town. in his mind he had obviously got fragments of things that he'd heard and seen that day, there was an expression that was being called out,to arm citizens, because war had been declared. the standard of war is being unfurled. he probably also remembered that the mayor's son was a commander of a ba battalion that was called enfant de la children of the fatherland, motherland. so with these words in his mind, these snippets of words, he he he sat down. he took up his violin. found a tune, he took up his pen and he wrote some words, and according to the story, according to the legend, the next day at day-break, he rushed off to the mayor dietrich, and was able to say, i have done it. and madame dietrich describes this in a letter which she later wrote to her brother. her husband was a very good tenor, the baron, he sang, and she wrote out the parts for piano, and various other instruments. now there is a famous picture somewhere in in france, i think kept in one of the museums in strasbourg, which shows this scene, but it shows rouget de lisle actually singing it. the truth according to the letter, is that it was the baron, the mayor of strasbourg who sang this for the very first time. there's been a lot of discussion about who actually wrote the erm, the national anthem. there is some thought that this other musician, the choir master of strasbourg wrote it, or perhaps produced the music, to which erm, rouget de lisle produced the words. nobody really knows, it's been discussed, argued about for years and years and years. perhaps we shall never know. it's rather nice to think that it happened in that way, that it was done overnight. rouget de lisle had a very unfortunate end to his life, because erm, he was, he had a good position, but he lost it. erm, dietrich the mayor had to flee the country. he fled to switzerland, he then returned. he was captured, and you know what the french do. he had his head cut off, he was guillotined. erm, rouget, as i say, lost his position as a captain, he was arrested, he was imprisoned. he became friendly with napoleon bonaparte, and he became friendly with josephine. now don't forget, that i said, that in spite of the fact that he'd got one shoulder higher than the other, he was very attractive to women, and there is running through this story, the suggestion that maybe he was too friendly with josephine. she was the one who kept saying, not tonight, wasn't she? or they said it to her, i don't know. erm, and perhaps because he was becoming too friendly with josephine, he was sent to spain by bonaparte, but then he fell out with bonaparte, and bonaparte fell out with him, and he was put under surveillance by the erm, the president, and erm, it makes you wonder what really went wrong. rouget de lisle never married. perhaps he had fallen in love with someone, who knows who it might be, but he never married. he lived out in the country for a number of years, lived in poverty, erm, he thought about and he wrote about suicide. he had a miserable life, he came to paris and led a further miserable life. and this was the man who wrote their national anthem. finally in eighteen thirty, there was yet another revolution in france, and that brought him a a ray of hope. he was finally given a pension, but by that time he was old, he was half paralysed, and he was nearly blind, and he died in eighteen thirty-six, only six years after he'd received this recognition and this pension. and he was, he had an unfortunate death, because he he he his body was buried in the little churchyard near to the village where he had been brought up, and he'd no sooner been buried, than they decided to run a road through, or, erm, something, so his body had to be unearthed and moved somewhere else, and it wasn't until nineteen sixteen, that the body erm, was taken out and was taken to paris, and restored in the er, where so many other famous people erm, do have their tombs and their remembrances. so that's the story. a rather sad story in a way, about a man who, for a very short time, achieved fame in strasbourg because he he wrote the marseillaise, which we all recognised, didn't we? let's let's hear the next one. know, that one, don't you. yeah. deutschelands. that's deutschelands that's the, that's the german national anthem, it's deutscheland , germany above all. i think you have to remember that the next line begins, if, so it's not just a pro it is, it is a nationalistic song, but it's not just a proclamation that they will be, erm, superb, superior. it's if. there is a condition attached to it. erm, apparently the first tune they used to those words, was a tune, which i've not been able to find, which came from britain. er, and eventually they took that tune from a melody from a haydn's string quartet. and of course, it's also a hymn tune, isn't it. yeah. yeah. erm, very often used, it's the old hundred, is it. yeah, it's the erm, the one glorious things of thee are spoken. it's city of my god, that's it. erm, like this country germany has, not only a national anthem, but it has various songs that are also nationalistic. erm, we would think of others, wouldn't we, not only do we have our own national anthem, but we have other songs that that arouses from time to time. land of hope and glory, is one that almost is a substitute for yeah. the national anthem, and the germans also have various other ones, erm, there is one which is very well known, called the watch on the rhine, bearing in mind that the rhine for much of its length is the border between germany and the rest of the world. erm, certainly between germany and france. erm, so that is the one that used to be used, and to some extent is now used. there was a time when they were only allowed to sing the last verse, not the first verse, because of this er very nationalistic erm, attitude that it portrayed. yes, dutch, yes,no not as i say, not far away, that was deut the first the first one we heard was deutscheland, and that was the dutch one, that's the netherlands one, erm, written a long time ago, written in the sixteenth century, written as a piece of music, erm, the tune, apparently very very old indeed, erm, and mozart took the tune, and made variations on it, which is perhaps why it sounds familiar, you've probably heard it somewhere else. erm, it was adopted when wilhelmina became queen in eighteen ninety-eight. adopted as their national anthem, and the words mean something like, let him in whose veins flows the blood of the netherlands remains free from a foreigners strain. again, very nationalistic, and, rather short, isn't it. i think i'd rather stand to that one, than i would, of like standing to the czechoslovakian one, which seemed to go on and on and on. erm, another tradi few, any dancers in the company. spanish. do you notice anything about that? it's, in, it's it's in three, four time, it's a waltz time. mm. you could waltz to it, but it would be a funny one to march to, wouldn't it, although, you know, but it it it was certainly in three four time. yes. the waltzing time. it's it's it's er, it's polish, it's polish. it's erm, a traditional song as i say, and erm, it was, erm, it was written, ah, way back in, just after the turn of the the century, eighteen hundred and something, eighteen hundred and five or six, something like that. it's a l it's a lively tune. it's a very lively tune, but it is considering poland was really oppressed. yeah, it is, it is, it's a waltz. it is a waltz. erm, so if you want to get up and have a dance, that's the one to to play to. this is another, er, i think, very very traditional one. haven't heard of that one before, it's it's a swe , swedish swedish national anthem, and it's erm, it's it's something like, though ancient, though free, and mountainous north, though silent, though joyest, though beautiful north. so it's very much praising the landscape of the country. not the king. not the battles. no. not the flags, but the countryside. erm, first sung apparently as the end of the last century, about eighteen ninety-four, erm, and they had at least three other anthems in their time, including, at one stage, using the two, a pair, god save the king, god save the queen. so as i say, ours has been about a bit, it's been borrowed by various people. but that that is the the swedish one. this one i'm sure you'll recognise. russia. no. red flag, ah. no, no, no. you're the wrong side of the world, altogether. it's united states. states. the united states. you know, i thought it was, but, it sounded more like it's the star spangled banner, the star spangled banner, that's it, forever. yes. they they also have my country it is of thee. and the picture you sometimes have, well, certainly the one i have recently, is of president clinton standing there,whe whi listening to whatever version they were playing, when he was in russia. erm, with his hand across on his heart, because that's that's the the way that they do it. erm, it was written in eighteen fourteen, and the author, at the time, was watching the bombardment of baltimore from a british ship on which he had been detained. so there is some history, erm, to it. but the melody, apparently, had been the song of a gentleman's music club. so the words composed to fit the tune, that's already been going around in a, in a gentleman's music club. erm, it's it's a very interested one, isn't it. and you, again, you, i'm sure you'd heard it before, but were difficult to say, is it, is it there. yeah. yeah i wonder what you would make of this one. i don't think you'll and i suppose i make no apologies for including it, because i think we are all very well aware of the terrible tragedy that is happening in in yugoslavia it's not not an anthem that i would have recognised, erm, i was fortunate to go to yugoslavia on, i think, two occasions, in happier times, and it saddens me tremendously, to see, on the television, to hear on the radio, to read in the newspapers, just what has happened to what was emerging as, not only a very beautiful, but a very successful country. i first went, i suppose in in something like the nineteen seventies, and i can remember in those days having some difficulty getting into the country. because it was a communist led country, erm, but i had, i was going to visit friends, er, and it it was, possible for us to get in. oh, we had to wait at the border, we had in advance to get visas, and when we got there, things were very simple but nonetheless, we were very well received, and the person that i was staying with, lived in a flat, a very simple flat, but nonetheless, a very pleasant flat. i went back, not to see the same people, but i went back, erm, on a a family holiday. i should think it was about ten, fifteen years later, and it was so easy to get into the country. that had changed tremendously, so easy it was to get into the country, that i went in and out of the border about three times, because having got into yugoslavia, i realized i had some italian currency, so i drove out again, spent my italian currency, and drove back again. er, er, and nobody seemed to bother then, the the place had opened up, it had become westernised, it was prosperous, it was green, er wherever you went you were very welcome, people tried to speak english, people tried to communicate. that was in something like nineteen seventy, nineteen eighty something, the the the turn of the seventies, eighties. now look what had happened to the place, and i play you that because, maybe we shall never ever hear that again, because yugoslavia cannot now exist as a state. it must eventually be split up into, the muslims, the serbs, the croats, and that, that is in fact very sad. so i i propose you were not singing, god save the person, it was god save the nation. nation. yes, yes, yes. the interpretation because the king represented the nation, yeah. yes, yes. yeah. and al always on, the same, i think it is always the same school, er, rupert. always on armistice day, on the eleventh of november, the erm, not only the ki , the the, god save the king, national anthem, but also the marseillaise was, because it was a french class weren't they, yeah. we knew that, and we had to sing it in french. mm. but what i meant was, we was always, going have those two. yes, yes, yeah. mm. i don't we're proud of our country any more, are we? we've, we've, we've run ourselves down far too long, and er i think this is true of us as individuals, yeah. as well as being true of the country. we,we we've gone through a stage where we've said, i'm not good enough, my families not good enough, my home's not, and my class isn't good, and my my town isn't good enough, erm, and so you go on from that, and you you eventually, but well, you know, what about england. england's not worth very much, is it. we we aren't, perhaps not the world-power that we used to be. be we've got a lot that we ought to be proud of. yeah. certainly got a lot. yeah, we we have run ourselves down, yeah, quite you're quite true. quite right. you notice a difference, even when you go to wales. where the oh yes. there, yeah, yeah. they they're off like a shot, aren't they. yeah. with their national anthem. yes, yes, yeah yes yeah, and of course they're all so wonder singers, aren't they, the welsh. yes, oh yes. erm, you know. i think they say it's the hills, don't they, that er i don't know, i don't what it is, er, the, whether it's the hills or the water, but er, there's something, there's something that makes wonderful singers out of them. yeah, it's lovely. they're not afraid to let themselves go. go. no, they er, they're not inhibited. mm. whereas er, i'm afraid we english are inclined to do a bit of that. yes, yes yeah, i mean, i think if i if i were to say to you, shall we sing the national anthem, we'd say, oh no, no, no. no, don't want to do that. i think it's because there's such a lot of mixed people here now. mm. er, that's what it is, we're not a true brits, now. we're not true brits, we got to be like er, foreign people and er, we just seem to go their ways. yes, i think that, you know, i made the comment earlier that erm, we have changed in the way in which news is communicated, it takes seconds. we've changed in the way in which we travel. yeah. years ago, if you wanted to go to,n now let's say, to to poland. it it would take you days upon days, in order to get there. now you can do it in a matter of hours, in an aeroplane. yes. yeah. and so it is possible for people to come and live here, that's right. er, bring in their ways and their habits with them. erm, and it is just as possible, in theory, for us to go and live somewhere else. er, it is, it is very easy. some people are a bit more fussy, though, they what they are, aren't they. yes. and that makes it. er, that they keep their own saying down there. yes, yes, yes not like us. yeah. any old tom, dick, and harry can come. yeah, that's very true. that's right. any other comments about ma national anthems and memories of hearing national anthems. when i was a girl, when you were a girl, yes, yes. here we go. now. that was a long time ago. because i belonged to the guides, and my er, lieutenant, captain, i don't what she was, i forget. haven't yeah. came home, she came home with me, she came home with me, and i'd just learned to play the piano, and i played that, it was, we'd just come from guides, you see, and i i was only young. aha. rupert. and and i played that, you were eleven. oh my god. 'cos i'd just learnt to play this, thought it was ever so clever, and she put her hands on me hands, and she said, no, no, you mustn't play that, not while we're in uniform. i thought well that, i mean, that stuck in my mind ever since then. yes, yes, yes. oh, well, we used to salute when they played are yes, but you see, we were just standing there, and i was just showing off. oh. she said, no, we don't play that. well that's that's that's rather strange isn't it, so you you, well, i thought so. if you hadn't your uniform on, you could play it, but because you had your uniform on i don't why couldn't play it. and i was so disappointed, because it was the only thing i could play. yes, oh yes. i supp ag again, i think this, it it shows a very different attitude, it was as if oh, yes. the national anthem was something quite sacred, that's right erm, and erm, i don't know that i ever did this, but i never heard anybody heard anybody walking the street, whistling the national anthem. no. no. because if you, if if you did, somebody would think it was wrong. you could whistle a song, but you couldn't wish whistle the national anthem. yeah, that's right, yeah. it was, it was something quite sacred. something that you, perhaps kept in a box, almost, and brought out on certain occasions. cinema everywhere, everybody stood up and stood still oh yeah. yes. but now. some people used to go out they just go out, walk out. yes, yes. we never used to do that years ago. mm. mm. mm. mm. how many times have you said that get out before national anthem