bnc_spoken.txt he doesn't do that, i cut it with an electric cutter. yeah but i think that yeah but erm we used to have just an but it used he said he it used to take half a day to cut our grass. to cut the grass. i do too, yeah, you know? yeah . we didn't have an erm mower in those days either did we? we didn't to start with, no. we've got two, we've got the one that runs on petrol as well but i wouldn't use that one. no. well er actually bob bought this other one cos he knew i liked, i quite enjoy cutting the lawn, i yes mhm. i don't dislike it at all but er but we've only got a ti now we've only got a tiny little lawn yeah. but i mean if it was sort of about s s five yards, it wouldn't be five yards by three yards. no. i suppose ours is from there to over there i suppose, the front one yeah now ours were nothing like, i mean no half this room and that would be our lawn in the front. not, you know, wouldn't even be as long as that. no. but we've got sort of as i say the daffodils out there and i took up a lot of my daffs and started, erm erm i never take them up every year no we don't, we never take ours up. er but these had got really, they were choking the roses and yeah. and i took up quite a few, thinned them out and my sister yeah they live at north bovey yeah well they can see the manor house hotel from where they live but yeah but my brother-in-law's gotta sit on a machine to cut his grass cos he's got yeah. such a yeah. and they've i gave them to them and they put them on the hedges oh yes? and i expect they're coming out and looking yes mhm. a picture now. well ours are, ours are lovely at the moment erm yeah. as i say erm we've got those but we were looking the other day and were quite amazed at how many different flowers there are out. flowers yeah, that's right. you know oh there's a out there as well isn't there? yes there is. er we've got a magnolia tree sort of out the front yeah, yeah. er we had a lovely one but frost got that a couple of years ago. but this one erm i love the magnolias but they don't like the frost do they? you know, it looks as if it it will sort of er be showing you know quite yeah it's one of those ones. ones. oh yeah star ones, you know? yeah but erm and then we've got still, we, we were looking we've still got holly with berries yeah, do you know i think, cos i go through the woods every day with the yeah dog you see, but er you can tell it hasn't been that tough a winter because there's still mm berries up there yeah, yes. and we've got a on, on the side mm. and that's got erm got a lot of berries as well. berries yeah, yeah. but erm, mind you the birds we've got i don't know how many ever so fond of his birds yeah and he hangs up nuts, i think he's got about that's right yeah four different little net things of nuts yeah. and he's made a little sort of bird house that's right, yeah, er and a seed, we er hang up a seed thing so we've got loads of birds come yeah, birds that's right, yeah. which is sort of quite pleasant. we also have the squirrels coming oh yeah they're quite funny really. oh they are. there was a piece on the television the other day yes yeah we saw that have you seen that? yeah yeah. i don't think our squirrel is anything like as inte as intelligent as that one. that one well that one really is i mean cos i see them up in the woods quite a lot yeah, yeah cos the dog chases them before she's got anywhere near them that's right yeah. when when we have my daughter's dog with us yeah erm she just takes off and yeah, that's right, yeah. if she had one wish in life it would be that she could climb trees. yeah i suppose so, yeah. well she, she'll take cats on oh yeah i think she thinks they're rabbits yeah? i'm sure she does but er what's she seen? she'll go up up the path and all i could see was this cat, and it was hanging on for dear life up this big tree and there yeah, yeah was she sat at the bottom you know oh yes thinking oh well jess, jess will sort of, if a cat came into our garden, she'd see it off yeah well then we don't get cats in our garden cos she, she, they know she's there and then she would see it off in no time at all. mm. but we seem to er where we live erm at the top of church road yeah i know yes, yeah you're going down into park yeah whole lot of those sort of big houses have been converted into flats flats yeah, yeah. and erm i think there must be some people there who have brought cats in because all of a sudden there are a whole lot of cats about which there weren't before you see cats, oh yeah i see, no that's right. so that er they, they haven't learned to keep out of our garden yet but they have to in our garden because erm i know the first she was a the one we've got and the first day me husband brought her he went up to fetch her out the kennel and she sort of saw this cat and it's a one it's just over the fence and that and there was this ginger and white cat hanging on to our fence on for dear life you know she walked straight to me again and but she doesn't come in the garden now aah it's amazing how it all seems to happen, in a way, quickly all of a sudden innit? yeah that's right. yeah but the trouble is then you see what wants doing outside then don't you? too much. look at my windows and think it's about time they were cleaned i know i'm four five eight ninety nine. that's right, yeah. another penny would have made it a tidy yeah it would wouldn't it? mm. right. ah well it's gotta go into muriel. oh we'd better write in the yes. right erm i shall have to get muriel some change actually. so do you want to write it down? i've got pound coins, one hundred and eighty one eighty er fifty pence, thirty pounds fifty thirty fifty twenty pence, twenty two forty twenty two forty ten pences, twenty pounds exactly. now i, is that just silver? oh no it's er it's oh twenty four sixty. twenty four sixty and bronze is the same together bronze will be one forty nine. one forty nine. so that's is ten nineteen two and four so is that three fifty eight? two fifty eight. two fifty eight ninety nine. erm that's one one ninety nine three over seven eight, eighteen twenty one, twenty three, twenty five and cheques two hundred is it? two fifty eight ninety nine and the cheque is two hundred, yeah. this is more cash paid in from the last three weeks actually. that's what i was saying you see, that's there's two hundred and thirty four, two hundred and twelve, two hundred and forty seven. that's what i was saying that yeah erm two hundred and fifty eight ninety nine. it's amazing and look they've put them on the bottom, instead of doing the top ones first, they obviously haven't. the bank? i don't want to go to the bank but what i want to do is to go to erm oh tony's? tony's. yes erm yes i, i've got to go back with the money to you've got to bring money first, yes. so if you want to go anywhere i will i'll see you back at the car shall i? yes? can you tell me,do you know if it will be okay for me to come in at quarter past four? quarter past four? yeah. right, not two o'clock? and not quarter past five? no okay, quarter past four, righto. thank you, thank you. right she's coming in at quarter past four oh. and joanna will come in at quarter past six. you've just got the two coming? yeah. shame they can't get together isn't it? well it was just that erm erm erm was it eight weeks your hospital appointment? think so. oh it was, that was right. didn't you write it in? yes i have but yeah. i, er i it did oh you thought eight weeks yeah, one two three four, it's gone on to, you know, it's into april and i just wonder whether that was, that's alright. yeah well these daffs have really come out now. mm. as you say all down the side there they are all out. yeah. they're probably not so deep you see as the other ones that side cos there's not the depth of soil in this one. i can't remember when, which cos if you remember i bought some late some sort of bulbs and i can't remember which. and you put those in and i can't remember where. is this the erm the no faulty one? er do you want your dinner at dinner time or no i don't know what i've done with it it may be upstairs. oh don't bother with it no. i mean erm well either that or we can slip it in at quarter past five, how about that? oh yes there's that time isn't there? yes. oh i can see a bag of crisps there, i think i'll indulge. gosh police who found nineteen thousand five hundred pounds at 's tool repair business in newark yesterday did they? dug up the garden of his cottage home. oh we believe it had been buried in tin cans and hidden in walls cos i was thinking all over the place, it could take months to trace and it is possible we will never find all of it . oh dear ian botham's dream of helping england to victory in his last world cup campaign took thrilling shape in perth. botham inspired england to their nine run win over india with his enthusiasm, experience and will to win. he was involved in everything, opening the innings, coming back as a runner for graham gooch, bowling a match winning spell, holding a vital catch and finally ending the game with a calm run out. beefy's presence in the england team was a huge bonus for gooch. the big fella is more keyed up than i've seen him for a long time and he is channelling all his energies into one final world cup fling. don't ask me how he manages it but there is still an aura about botham that intimidates even the finest player. indian youngster handled england's other bowlers with ease, he looked in tremendous form but when botham came on and bowled him a harmless straight one, somehow managed to edge it into his pads and nearly played on. not that both would ever admit to bowling a straight one the ball he produced to finally get rid of was a gem and it turned the match away from india . the thing about it is, i mean they've all got eat their words now haven't they? i mean they've all been sort of saying oh well you know it's ridiculous to take him, let him play his panto and then sort of just join mm the thing, i mean everybody's been complaining about that but considering all that he hasn't done bad has he ? no. oh i see i thought, i don't know why, i thought there was two,ta two sort of halves to this world cup but there's not oh. it's, it's just the one table. oh so they've done what they've got to do well no i mean they're each gonna play each other obviously but you see england, new zealand and sri lanka and west indies have all got two points from one game, australia, india, pakistan and zimbabwe have all lost so they've got no points from one game, south africa have still to play. so i should think it's gonna be the top four that will go into a knock out competition or something like that at the end, you know? yeah. yes of course these bookings had to made by the twenty fifth of th of erm february didn't they? that's right. yes, well the twenty sixth was it? twenty fifth. well that's twenty sixth, twenty sixth. yes. now that's wednesday you see so i knew we'd got to do it. oh so that's wednesday you can even get to the imperial for two ninety seven pounds per person for five nights. if you think what the imperial in torquay is anyway. yeah. oh yes it says this is the first world cup the new way of playing the qualifying rounds, this is the first world cup where every team has to play each other and it should mean the best sides make the semi-finals. under the old two group format it was very much down to luck as to who you were drawn with, the new system is much better, it allows for the odd hiccup, gives an extra dimension to every game and rewards those teams that perform on the day. mm. it also gives the smaller nations like sri lanka and zimbabwe a crack at all the big boys . so everybody plays everybody else once yeah. and then it's the semi-finals so obviously i should think the top four clubs will go into the knock out. oh so they hadn't have had that at woodbridge. lavenham they have erm at the swan there tope? t o p e that was yeah. name ? yeah. it's in here. well i never ever heard of them. just suddenly remembered it. mm now what does it say it was, erm american pop star or something wasn't it? mm oh well an microwave, perhaps horse play interests here. i've got one here and i can't get it. no? well nine down try no take over from s blank oh that's an e not an l of course, that's better. even so s blank, s blank p e blank s e d blank sorry? what was it? s take over from. yeah? s blank p e s blank p e blank s e d superseded blank. superseded, yeah, super. well done. i often can see it yeah when it's written down. supersedes supersede or supersedes or superseded. superse s e d blank. s e d e. superse oh supersede yeah, of course, supersede, yeah, supersede. mm gosh. a funny thing the, the chappy who you know erm was in the neighbours and then became a pop star and all the rest mhm well i'm trying to think what he was called in it but his father his own father is in fact doug willis in the series who's the father of the that girl cody oh and what not mm he plays father of four doug willis in the series and also told woman's own magazine that the family on screen a happy on screen family life made a welcome change from real life. he brought up jason alone after splitting from the boy's mother sue and said i'm very proud i'm very pro that sort of thing ohm i couldn't hear you then? no it's alright i, i answered myself. i said yes you did. what? bring out knives . yes. those erm erm fuchsias that we bought i reckon they've doubled in size. mm. i thought that goes with that. yeah but what would you get with the two? with the two you get tesco's premium teabags, a hundred plus tesco's freeze dried gold coffee, two hundred grammes of that plus packet of erm biscuits. well the teabags don't mean anything to us really thought you said something about a chicken. well that's if you get the, the next page which means that you have to have twenty stamps in all. oh i see. you have to have four completed pages oh i see. and with that you would get erm oh well i'm not likely to have that next week, that's no you won't get that, no. going to need so you're looking at either these chocolates or well you don't want the premium teabags anyway no. but then we don't use teabags do we? i mean no. they could go to parish hall but i'm thinking to myself well why bother? well you can always charge them, could always take the cash for that. but erm so how much is the coffee? well the coffee is what we got the other day. yeah that's about two fifty is it? something like that, yeah. and what else is and i've got a spare one of those anyway haven't i? i bought a spare one anyway. yeah. and you see other than that there's just the biscuits. yeah. and we've got plenty of biscuits there. premium teabags, a hundred and sixty plus the freeze dried gold coffee plus spec erm fox's speciality selection biscuits. with the four completed pages you get a large frozen chicken er six pounds six pounds four ounces plus erm party size, fourteen portions black forest gateau plus a bottle of bordeaux white wine. yes but you're never gonna get that, i mean that's yes that, that would be ridiculous wouldn't it? well that would be what,f cos i'd need to spend hundred fifty pound, hundred and forty pound something. well erm four completed pages, twenty stamps you need to have two hundred pounds in all. well that's ridiculous, i mean you won't and you see i've got fifty, sixty i've got sixty. so there's no, that's no point. no point. it's really only a question of whether you get the extra one page or, or leave it as it is. i'll leave it as it is i think because yeah. the teabags don't mean anything to us no. and and i have got mm. i mean it would be just as well to buy another thing of coffee because at the moment you get that extra little erm one anyway. jar for any, any, free anyway. yeah. mm. so well we could go out there anyway to see whether they've got any er you see if they carried it on for another month that would be different. but it was only for february. yeah. right, so anyway you want bread and you want, we want milk powder don't we? oh yes we could get that, yes. you crafty devil you . erm what i do need, but i'll see how expensive they are,a lettuce but i can go out and buy a lettuce anyway erm thinking about salad stuff for tonight. salad for tonight. yes. what were you looking for? i'm reading wednesday. oh oh well i'm quite happy. sorry? i said i must admit i'm quite happy here. oh well i certainly saint gregory's i mean. i think we can do without the erm the other things. yes. you know, this fund raising, it's i mean we, we'll be giving them over a thousand pound, well a thousand pound anyway well may well may not be actually. yeah well it may well be but i think this will be, i mean i'm more and more i'm thinking that erm and erm you know the other things that you do. they have come on well haven't they? yeah. yeah they have, i mean they're just yeah they're just sort of shooting able to plant them out then shooting up you see aren't they? we could bring that other erm yes i meant to do that, i'll do it when i come back down now. there's erm and i mean looking after the parish hall as well, why should we bother with that? yeah that's right. i mean we we have more than done what was supposed to be to start with to see that it wasn't a drain on the parish. yeah. must get bored silly not being able to get out yeah. no i, the other thing is if we're out here, i don't know what to do about this lamp for the bedside, i mean i don't know that i need it and it's another ten pounds isn't it? what do you think? i mean you're gonna get twenty five pounds in vouchers or something aren't you? i don't know what kind of vou did she say what? oh i see, you mean not get it till then? well it's only friday, i mean we can yes. pay for it now. i mean what are the vouchers gonna be for? i've got no i i've no idea. probably be smith's. taking off across the road like that in front of a car. you'd think they want to commit suicide wouldn't you? you would wouldn't you? there's ever so many more people about, it's a nice day of course yeah. but as well as that of course there are all the school children around. mm. now where's he going? no the fellow's stopped there, taking the cart off to go in there. no indication, just ! yeah. he's shaking his head like mad. yeah he didn't indicate. what was he supposed to be shaking his head for? goodness only knows. cos i was shaking mine at him oh, i see. perhaps well it was ridiculous! it was, he didn't put on there was no indication or anything. suddenly swept in there. another bank there, talking about a clothes bank oh that's right they've got, at the cricketfield lane erm car park there's a where, you know where the bottle bank is on the yeah? they've got this clothing bank. oh. it did say something in that little magazine that came yesterday. did it? mm. yes it did come to think of it. so they're actually doing something about this looks almost as if they're putting steps in there. did it? i didn't notice at all. see where that erm thing is there oh there's a place there by the oh someone's going out here. oh someone here look see. oh is he going in there? oh he's going in there. it wasn't a big enough room there. oh i see they're painting up there. you get out, i'll straighten up and come in. whoever would have thought they'd of ended up like this? yeah how are you? very well. and you? yes. saint mary church wasn't it? that's right, yes yes. that's right. long time ago though now. ken i know. are you finished as well? yes oh yes six years ago. how long have you been finished? i think it's nine and a bit now oh yeah just ni nine years christmas i think it was, yeah. yeah. i erm can't say i'm sorry. no i can't you, you look at what go you look at what goes on nowadays and you think erm oh yes. you know? yes they can keep it. it's erm it's been very interesting actually this last month because erm talk about your sons joining the enemy erm my second son who's been up in cheshire for well, twenty years i suppose he's just been appointed senior art adviser for devon. really? yeah but the stuff he's shown me, you know the sort of,th the mandatory for seven year olds in the primary school they've got to be able to recognize all the different sorts of painters really? painters. he said he said it's ludicrous yes. he said because he said half the yeah half the teachers won't know yeah. let alone the kids themselves. oh well, when you've got buffoons like clarke in charge preceded by an idiot like baker i know, you see what can you expect? and really you know, i mean i think to myself well i'm glad i'm out of it really because erm yeah, yeah. mind you yeah looking at the recent salary increases yeah well you wish you were back in don't you? yeah that's right yes. i know, yes it's true. but i warned my children completely off teaching so none of them even contemplated, well they did contemplate, two of them did but i just told them no, not to countenance it yeah well two of mine did go in, one's gone out into the fire service and the other one has stayed in and he's got, he, he's been doing very well, he's been in a big big comprehensive school up in runcorn, and then he's been seconded to cheshire county to the advisory service for a couple of years and so, hello! hello. so that erm but yes, and all the heads you speak to, they say to themselves yeah thank you very much do you ever go to any n a h ? i haven't done, i've been invited to go once or twice and i oh i haven't even been invited. and, and i've thought well er no well there was so there was something about the erm they're trying to form a, a retired teachers' branch of the n a h t yeah well i i and wrote to them and said yes i'd be interested but i haven't heard anything since. oh but you haven't heard any more? i didn't even write, i was afraid to,co i've, i've been inv i'm involved in so many other things i don't want to get involved in anything else. mm. mm. erm and my wife's not terribly well, she's about here now but she's had a she's been in hospital two years ago with her heart so i'm mm having to cut down a little bit but i enjoy my look at dartmoor when i get out there and i'm busy with the church and yes. i still enjoy my skiing when i get the chance. ooh. i started after i retired did you really? and it's addictive yes yes it's addictive, it's i suppose so. did you go to yeah i went to, we went in the french pyrenees this january. i usually, we've been to austria other years but yes? we had a change this time and i, it was quite good, yes it was erm mm frightening you get the adrenalin flowing. yes, yes i can well imagine it. you know there's, there's apparently there's a black run in switzerland which is named oh my god and i, you know the feeling, you know that's right. aah! yes. still, well it keeps you young doesn't it? you know? oh absolutely, yes. yeah, that's right, mm. yes so we come down to this don't we? pushing trolleys, yeah? yeah yes bye bye, nice to see you. that was ken ken from dawlish. was it really? yes. er i was looking at these and er you get, you know, with the er a set of free yeah? for one twenty eight. what three packs of three? three packs of three, i was just wondering if that's good value for well it's not really is it? i mean it's isn't it? well it's, it's, it's it's erm it was nine you know nine so it's, it's less than two and a half litres. well i suppose that's not bad. well i was just thinking, you know,w er when we have the kids with us and that sort of thing, presumably we'll be having some of them down over erm easter seven hundred and fifty twenty two yeah it's just over two litres isn't it? well that's, that's not bad. er i mean it brings it about the same price as we're paying anyway doesn't it? yeah i know, you know,really to i don't know what we've got downstairs if any we've got some small ones but not a lot i don't suppose. i mean it's mostly for the kids or if,w when we're travelling in the car anywhere. right. well is that down here somewhere? do you want a cup of tea? can you remember how much those biscuits were? what, the ones we bought the other day? yes packet that packet there. were they about fifty two, something like that were they i think. fifty t i thought they were fifty something but i didn't know. either fifty two or fifty seven i think they were. cos i owe you for those, oh you need to take it out and the two lots of erm coffee coffee. well you'll take the biscuit you'll take the biscuits out of the erm wednesday thing won't you? but i'll pay you for the two lots of coffee. i mean i had them in my erm handbag and i think i must have just chucked them out this morning yes isn't it? well i suppose if i take fifty two out and i've got to well you'll have to get that in the morning of course. well wednesday morning. wednesday morning, yeah. away till thursday well we won't see her wednesday and i've got to tell her about that mrs what's her name that's she's away till thursday is she? well apparently. er i said to muriel mm. oh maybe it wasn't you, maybe it was erm doris doris i think it was doris actually who said it to you. so you still haven't been able to find it? oh i know what i was going to do. i was going to phone up the a t s tyre people just to find out how much these tyres are. the second, i must get that ten pence off there, that's june's, that's not bad and that one's july but that's march the second i should have remembered that today. well march the s second is next monday. yeah. what, what, do you want to find out how much for new ones? well i, yeah i do i mean i don't i don't need them just yet, i mean i think i shan't need to get them till we come back from the trip. but erm i'm just really interested to know how much they're likely to be and erm find out how much the byrite people will erm charge for them. well you may as well give them a ring, you found their number didn't you? yeah i found their number, yeah. gosh clematis nursery westlands saxmundham yeah that's right yeah just saw just the, you know, opened the page and there it was. he's supposed to be he's supposed to be the real expert for those. yes the erm coffee is two lots of one eighty nine so that's three seventy eight isn't it? mm. oh that's lovely,three years ago my sister died leaving a household of two men, my brother-in-law aged eighty and myself approaching retirement age to cope with ourselves, to cope for ourselves. er because neither of us could really manage in the kitchen it was not long before we became very tired of having to eat convenience food sad looking old meat pies, dried out chips and heated up frozen vegetables soon palled. i began to despair in the local press i noticed an advert for an evening class, cookery for men being the young one in the family i plucked up courage and enrolled but it was great, with great apprehension that i went to the first class. i needn't have worried. there were twenty of us, other chaps in much the same boat as me, nancy our tutor was cheerful, down to earth and did not expect us to be cordon bleu cooks. that course changed my life. with a mixture of demonstrations, simple methods and constant humour, nancy taught us to fend for ourselves. i now have the confidence to tackle almost anything in the kitchen, pies, pastas, cakes, soups, meat dishes, vegetables and bread. there have been many disasters along the road, yorkshire puddings you could sole your shoes with, burnt offerings of several varieties, a pat that even my dog wouldn't eat and last christmas a chocolate log that disintegrated, the proud little santa on top sinking without trace in a sea of chocolate gunge. these setbacks however were more than compensated for by the successes. we still keep meat pies and vegetables in the freezer but only for emergencies and i'm in the third year of the course now . oh that's lovely. he got fifty pounds for writing that in as well. did he really? yeah mm i was taking my very independent three year old daughter for a walk and i asked her to hold my hand. i can hold my own hand thank you came the reply and she did . yeah. tell you what, it's gonna be a strange journey up to woodbridge mm because where all the sort of a route that i reckon i know i, i am not gonna know it all. no. oh dear , you'd say this would be me as i was leaving the travel agents i heard a woman say my friend and i want to get away from it all, can you recommend somewhere completely unspoiled with a really nice shopping area . mm ah you're right there. somewhere like trega mills oh that's a good idea. good lord use dampened string when tying up parcels, when the string dries it shrinks and it tightens up. makes your parcel more secure . you know the steep hill at, at erm between martlesham and woodbridge, you know as you left martlesham you went down that steep hill down to the erm the pub at the bottom of the hill where you came out on the looks to me as if the new road misses that altogether it goes round it. goes round that, goes to the bealings side of it. looks to me you ought to give john a ring tonight yeah you know and sort of erm tell him yeah what we've done, you know say that you we only want to see mm while you're still able sort of comfortably to drive and that sort of thing, i mean if you put it that way and you'll be saying anyway she's my er she's my only living real relative. that's right. i know they are of course mm er because er her children but erm say that we we didn't want to sort of upset her by erm you know landing ourselves on them. landing ourselves that's right. on them so mm we've arranged this five day break. but if we have everything ready to leave as soon as i get back from chess and i'll make sure i leave promptly if we can come straight away then, with a bit of luck we'll be on to the m twenty five b by half past four so we might how far round do we have to go on that? practically the whole wa half way round. do we? yeah about forty miles on it. it's not a lot further than gatwick but in the other direction. yeah. but it's gonna take us, i mean, what gatwick took us about three and a half hours didn't it? yeah. well i reckon it's gonna take us three and a half hours to get to the other end, so two and a half hours to it and an hour on it if it's not too bad and then of course we've got to go up from there to ipswich, woodbridge but it's dual carriageway all the way now you see. yeah yeah. so i mean it's seventy miles so it should only take us another hour. so perhaps four and a half hours, if we don't get held up on the m twenty five, four and a half hours would do so that, if we leave here at two, we could be there, you know, well by seven. so you're going, you will be at three quarter past five. what's the time now? oh yes erm com coming up to four. i'm just going to do er a salad aren't i? and yeah. and erm cold chicken. cold chicken yes, and you can have the the other little erm apricot thing and there there is a yoghurt which i'm quite happy enough to have yeah. so have you got erm john 's telephone number in your erm isn't it in there? it's not in the long book. oh. well it must be in the front here of my, here one of those two small oh yes oh no, you've got their address. you haven't got their telephone number. oh. but i wonder if it's in the chr christmas book. yes it could be. i can ring up directory enquiries. they said, they erm they said something or other they were going to be closing down somewhere in cornwall because the directory enquiry service was not being used yeah but you're still erm and you're ch you're charged for it. well you're charged for it from the erm a private call but you're not charged oh and not from a phone box. not from a phone box. oh well. well do you know i never knew this i was recently hit by a car and, although not seriously hurt, i did go to casualty to have some cuts cleaned and an x-ray taken to check i hadn't broken my ankle. now i have received a bill for nineteen pounds thirty from the hospital for the treatment i was given. i thought all treatment was free on the n h s, do i have to pay and they answer no, nor should you have been sent the bill although the hospital was within its rights to make a charge for the emergency treatment fee. there is a standard charge for immediate treatment given by a doctor or a hospital to any casualty of a road accident. according to the nineteen eighty eight road traffic act the e t f can be charged only to the driver of the car involved irrespective of who caused the accident. the hospital should therefore have sent the bill to the driver who will be able to claim for it insurance that's right, yeah. all policies must cover many insurers will reimburse it . return the bill to the hospital and explain their error then you should hear nothing further about it . ah you see here's somebody who's writing about, you know, her part of the erm the interest on an er on erm and it says and provided you have no other income er that would take you over your personal allowance register for on the inland revenue form r eighty five, interest with no tax deductions. you can also get this form tax office or bank. if you register immediately you'll benefit from a whole year's worth of tax free interest for what's calculated on april the fifth. if your building society won't allow you to register you can still apply for a refund of overpaid tax financial year. for details see leaflet one r hundred and eleven, how to claim a repayment of tax from banks and building societies . so i should go into the tax office and no i think i think we've got the interest your interest on my buil on the buil yeah i know you sent that to the building society but i was yeah just thinking then of the other oh that tax credit, yeah. yeah. the, the tax office and ask them oh yeah, could do that if you don't get, hear from the i should have heard from them by now. i would have thought so, yeah. didn't you say somewhere in st austell? no no no no, i've seen one since then. oh. bearing in mind too that as a non-taxpayer you can open an account in just your name and so enable all the interest to be declared gross. do you? well it's neither here nor there but i mean the thing is that we don't as it is we're not losing anything because you're getting yours, half of it's coming back as, as gross interest. i'm tired. you're tired? mm. well you haven't been doing anything have you? yeah. oh. pam is cycling in at a constant speed here she is four seconds later and here she is four seconds later . pam went twenty miles twenty twenty met well she wouldn't go twenty miles in four seconds would she? twenty metres? in four seconds. that's a lot isn't it? not really, no. not cycling. how far does she go each second ? five metr right. how what was her speed what is her speed in in metres per second. five? that's right. five m stroke s. right. good. ken is rowing at a constant speed, he covers eighteen metres in three seconds. what is his speed ? six that's right. the plane flying at a constant speed takes five seconds to go one thousand five hundred miles what no. metres. metres,what is f what is his speed in metres per second ? fives into that goes three that's right. so three hundred miles three hundred metres per second. three hundred i think you'll find here they won't deal with miles at . having said that they do. no they don't. they do show miles but they also show kilometres, yes right, so number four. the lorry travelling on a motorway at a constant speed goes hundred metres in four seconds, what is his speed ?fours into sixty mm? i'm being a bridesmaid. are you? yes. oh, when are you gonna be a bridesmaid? in august. mm, who's getting married? my uncle. oh. oh, is it fours into that? yeah. mm. fours into ten goes fours into a hundred. oh! twenty five oh oh right! twenty five m s i'm aren't i? i think i've seen this one before. pardon? , that's a good picture isn't it? mm. it is that one isn't it? it's probably a photograph. yes. that's good though that is. was running along a track at a constant speed he passed the hundred and fifty metre mark. ten seconds later he passed the two hundred fifty metre mark. how far did he run in ten seconds ? a hundred metres. right. erm a hundred metres per second. now be careful cos you give the speed in metres per second. mm. so how far is it per second? how far is it per second? well it's, look he passed the hundred and fifty metre mark, ten seconds later he passed the two hundred and fifty metre mark, how far did he run in ten seconds and you've put down a hundred metres yeah. right. now it says, b, what was his speed? ten yes a hundred metres in ten seconds but you don't give the speed like that. you give the speed in metres per second. yeah. so? what was his speed? ten metres ten metres per second, right. right, here are the distance time graphs of two walkers, there's the time in seconds there's the distance in metres how far did ann go in ten seconds ? how far did ann go in ten seconds ? right, what did you get? erm twenty five in two seconds. good. right so b one up to now speeds have been in metres per second we also use miles per hour m p h or m i h and kilometres per hour, k m h or k m p h if the car has a constant speed of fifty miles per hour this means it goes fifty miles in every hour . right? yeah. so how far will a lorry go in three hours at a constant speed of fifty miles per hour? hundred and fifty miles. right. just shut these doors cos otherwise we're gonna get very cold in here. two people are coming in this week . gloria and gavin. three people. three people. who alex is coming in isn't oh yes! right well that's what comes when you have a holiday. mm. right, b two if a train is going at a constant speed of ninety miles per hour how far will it go in two hours ? hundred and eighty. right. do you like teaching us terry? yes it's quite erm quite a challenge. oh yes if i've got a skill to impart i don't mind helping people. how far will a plane go in four hours that has a constant speed of five hundred miles per hour ? oh one, two thousand miles that's right, good. it's been hot this like summer today isn't it? it's been lovely hasn't it? mm. and all the bulbs are coming out now nicely as well. everything's, everything will start growing with the warmth on it. and loads of people are mowing their lawns like summer today. mm. i in fact mowed my lawn yesterday. oh. no it was the day before yesterday. it's been hot all the car is going along the motorway at a constant speed. it covers a hundred and eighty miles in three hours. how far does it go in one hour ? sixty miles. that's right. write down its speed . sixty miles per hour? mm. the 's top speed is two thousand three hundred kilometres per hour no kilometres er, yeah how far does it fly in three hours at top speed ? oh no, careful. oh three times that's right. six thousand nine hundred. that's right kilometres per hour. yes. no kil kilometres sorry. kilometres. yes. it is one thousand and fifty from london to it is what did you say? it is one thousand fi and fifty kilometres one thousand two hundred and fifty two hundred and fifty kilometres from london to? kilometres from london to veneta vienna. vienna . where's vienna? don't know. italy? no. oh. venice is in italy. oh yeah it is. vienna is the capital of austria oh! and it's right across the other side of austria from us. where you went skiing is this side of austria, but vienna is about two hundred and two hundred and fifty miles further on across austria, very close to erm czechoslovakia and erm yugoslavia. right so it is twelve hundred and fifty kilometres from london to vienna, can a concorde do the trip in half an hour ? how far does it go in an hour? two hundred and right. thirty. so can it go twelve hundred and fifty kilometres in half an hour? no. how far can it go in half an hour? erm one hundred and one thousand one thousand an one hundred yeah, yeah fifty and fifty, right, so the answer is no it can only do eleven hundred and fifty kilometres in half an hour. right, average speed ha oh terry mhm? will you take me letterboxing one day this week if you can? i don't think it's gonna be possible this week but perhaps in the easter holidays erm okay we'll be able to manage it. yeah. okay. it is a hundred miles from king's lions king's lynn. king's lynn where's that? erm do you know where the wash is? no if you think of a map of england erm the south coast is there, there's dover, there's the estuary for london, london is here erm then it comes up like this, the east coast of london, the east coast of e england like that this is east, called east anglia, here you've got norfolk and norwich and then you've got ipswich here and then you've got suffolk there and essex, right? can you remember that bulge in the map of england? well that piece up there is called the wash oh. and king's lynn is close to the wash, king's lynn is in this area here. oh. so from london to king's lynn is, they say, a hundred miles and i'll take their word for it, london to ipswich in fact is seventy miles. oh. but, yeah, that's about a hundred miles you see, that would be about right, yeah. oh. so that's where it is. north of london. up by the wash. right it is a hundred miles from king's lynn to london, the train takes two hours to do the journey the train does not go at a constant speed, it speeds up sometimes and slows down at other times it also stops at stations on the way and on once of course as it, as it's stopping it's going more and more slowly and as it's er moving off again it starts slowly and starts to go quickly but because it takes two hours in all the train goes a hundred miles in two hours we say its average speed for the journey is fifty miles per hour. it says if it was travelling at a constant speed of fifty miles an hour. it doesn't, sometimes it goes more slowly sometimes it goes more quickly, sometimes it stops but because it takes two hours to do the hundred miles we say its average speed for the journey is fifty miles per hour. its real speed changes during the journey sometimes it is more than fifty miles per hour, sometimes less but in two hours it goes the same distance as it would if its speed was fifty miles per hour all the time. oh. so we say its average speed is fifty miles per hour. there used to be a train called the cheltenham flyer there it is it went from cheltenham to london a hundred and twenty miles in two hours do you know where cheltenham is? well if there is the south coast along here and devo c cornwall is there and devon is here and you get the w the bristol channel going up here and then you c the coast coming down here and there's wales is here right? bristol is there, right? and if you go up from bristol on from here you go up the motorway to bristol and then you go along the m four to london well north of bristol, up where the river severn gets quite narrow and can be bridged is a city called gloucester and cheltenham is just inland from gloucester. oh. so cheltenham is about there, and it's about a hundred and twenty miles from cheltenham to london. mm. right? okay. so there's cheltenham. right so it went from cheltenham to london, a hundred and twenty miles, in two hours, what was its average speed? mm well if it, if it average speed is a hundred and twenty miles in two hours how far in fact would it go in one hour? sixty. so what was its average speed? sixty. sixty miles per hour. oh it wasn't its actual speed there will be sometimes it will be going very slowly, sometimes it will be going much more quickly but its average speed was sixty miles an hour because at sixty miles an hour it would cover a hundred and twenty miles, which was the distance, in two hours. oh right? this book isn't very big is it? no, none of them are really are they? well this one's very small isn't it? yeah cos look oh well you're gonna get on aren't you? great, yeah, you're half way through. ha! only got s nine pages mm. right so that was c one, c two it is a hundred and fifty miles from hereford to london by rail hereford is north of cheltenham, it's going up from cheltenham is hereford the first train in the morning takes three hours for the journey what's its average speed ? right can we go on the computer today? well there might be time, we'll see how we get on. now it says b what did you do with th the numbers one hundred and fifty and three to get the answer ? divided a hundred by three. right so you write that down, you divided a hundred and fifty by three. i wonder what my brother's doing now. well at the present moment it's about, where he is it's about half past five, twenty to six, so he is probably waiting for his supper i should think his evening meal. he won't be, he'll have finished skiing now. mm. does it get dark over there quick? it probably gets dark about the same time as it does here. it's not dark quicker there now would it? no it would probably be, you know, no it will be about this, be a little bit darker than this. it gets dark, it'll be dark there before it is dark here mm. mm because it's further east so the sun is further away from them because the sun rises in the east so it gets light earlier that's why we put the clocks on when you go to europe, one hour. oh. in america it's loads isn't it? well in america it's the other way, in america i i it is after us because they are further west than we are. yeah cos it's about six hours different. mm, that's right. right c three i've been to penzance. i know yeah. where that is. that's near mile end no what's it called land's end. land's end that's right, yes. yeah. it's right down at the far south west. it's it's more than a hundred miles from us. it's about a hundred and thirty miles from us down to penzance. so you know we're about two hundred miles from london, so we're about, only about two thirds of the way from london to penzance. have you been to l erm land's end since they've yes. done it all up? oh i don't know since they've done it all up, no probably not. it's good there now. is it? yeah they show you this mm erm you go in this place and erm and it shows you all the boats and things, and you can have a go on, there's this thing where they crawl up . and then you go through this door and it's all old like things and then you go and see erm and you go into this place and it's like telling you all the erm history and things like that does it. and it's got like rocks and things and erm statues doing like erm digging up gold and things a and it's got oh yeah? erm like a ship working models? yeah. and it's got a ship and erm there's people on there and it shows you this thing round the ship erm they have a storm and suddenly the sh the erm what do you call it? the th that big long thing? mast? yeah that's it, all fell down and it went like that yeah . and there's lots of other things there as well. right,penzance is three hundred and five miles from london by rail the train leaves penzance at five eighteen a m ooh ooh and gets to london at ten eighteen am . how many hours does the journey take? five hours. five hours. and b what was the average time speed of the train? erm five into thirty goes ei si sixty five? no. oh. what's five into three hundred and fives into three hundred and five. fives into thirty goes six sixty one. sixty one. good. right c four from carlisle to london is three hundred miles gracious me, you see if you've got a map of england, we haven't got it on here but if you imagine england going up here, carlisle is right now just think about it if you go out of your front door my front door and you turn left turn left and you go to a junction don't you? yeah now if you turn right at that junction the train station! what? if you turn right at that junction, on which road do you go? the no the erm goes to yes, which road is that? what's it called? i don't know. you don't know! no. if you go out of your f well go out of the gate here and turn right mm and go across church road don't go left down decoy road, keep straight on mm past all the new houses that have been built, past the playing fields yeah? and you don't know the name of that road? no. it is called coach road ooh! and it is the er it's called coach road because that is the road that the coaches used to go along to totnes mm. and from totnes to plymouth. and it is the old coach road. so a hundred and fifty years ago you would have the stagecoach going past here. were these houses there then? no. no? no. what would of been here? that house might well have been here that big house just there across th in there which has now been turned into flats. mm. er i don't know when that was built, it might not have been built but it er it's victorian so it could have been built like in eighteen thirty soon fa certainly soon after eighteen thirty that would have been built. when were our houses built? about nineteen sixty nineteen sixty six. how old are our houses? well if they were built in sixty six, and i think they were, they are now, how old are they now? sixty six did you say? i said i think they were built in nineteen sixty six. so how old are they? nineteen th eighty something years. no! eighty four years old. no! nineteen sixty six, what are we now? nineteen ninety two. right, well how many years is that? i don't know. fifty seventy eighty ni three thirty years? well ninety six it will be thirty years. so twenty twenty four years? about twenty six years. yeah! about twenty six years. that's oh i thought they were very old. no. where have you lived in? would you a hou the house did you live into it when it was new? no. no? no. i don't know ho certainly i know there had been at least two peo different lots of people living in ours before we moved in, and i would think there were probably more than that. cos we moved in in about nineteen i think we moved in in nineteen eighty nineteen eighty, nineteen eighty one we moved in. oh mm? in the house that she's lived in that she's in now all her life who? my nan. your nan. all her life since she was little. she gracious she, she came g went to the house when she came back from hospital and she's still living in it now. good lord. right come on me girl let's get on a little bit. d, otherwise we're not gonna have time to go on the computer oh! d well yes we can because you can, you can finish it off at home can't you? yes, right. so d calculating journey times oh oh look it's got the place. you know there, poole, is that yeah no it's not is it? i don't know. is it what? no cos, can you go across there to france from there? i don't know erm portsmouth more likely. yeah that's where i'm going to go yes. mm yeah portsmouth. oh portsmouth is here. it's not marked but it's there is portsmouth. i'm going to france from there. are you? how long does it take to get to there from our house? or from what portsmouth? from newton abbott? to, to, to portsmouth? yeah. well, three hours, three to four hours. and then it's eight hours on the boat. i like boats even though i haven't even been on one. oh do you? good. yes. do you like boats? don't mind them. you've never been on a big boat? have you not? haven't been on a boat i don't thi o only like little, you know, oh. oh that's gonna be quite an experience then isn't it? you haven't been to france then? yes you have, you've flown of course. no haven't been to france. well you've been to austria. i've been to austria, yeah. yes but you've flown? you haven't done a, been on a boat? mm. yeah, no not on a boat, no. right. it's nicer flying. a motor boat has a speed of four miles per hour this means it goes four miles in every hour oh. how many hours does it take to go from lulworth to bournemouth ? twenty four hours? no. oh erm silly me it's twenty four miles. twenty four miles? and how, it takes a minute a mile doesn't it? no. what does it say it goes? twenty four miles. yeah but what is the speed of the boat? oh! four miles per hour. right. six. right, six hours. six hours. how long does it take, how many hours does it take to go from swanage to ventnor? ventnor. where am i? swanage well it tells you how far it is, look yeah so you can, there's swanage and there's ventnor that's in the isle of wight. that's on the isle of wight. i haven't been there. have you been there? yes. have you been that part there? no have you been to that part there? no i don't think we landed at cowes i think we landed over here further. did you fly? no, went on a hovercraft well wen went on the hovercraft and came back on a, a ferry on the boat. what's a hovercraft? well it's a very specialized boat in a sense, i mean it goes on the surface of the water and it literally goes on the surface of the water, it's a hovercraft is a sort of a it's a vessel which has got a skirt all round it is it a rubber one? yes, heavy thick rubber skirt and that the engines do two things, they, they drive propellers in the air and they pump air from under the vessel onto the surface of the water and the skirt round the boat keeps dry keeps a cushion of air under the vessel so that really it hovers on top of the water and the air propellers drive it like an aeroplane oh but it skims across the surface of the water and it's very quick, it only takes half an hour to go from ramsgate to dover. mm! right er from swanage to ventnor is thirty two miles so how long would a motor boat take? eight hours. eight hours, right. colin's dad's got a boat. has he? and how long would it take to go round the isle of wight, which is sixty miles round the isle of wight? er erm fifteen? fifteen hours, right. right d two how long does it take to go from ventnor to swanage in a launch with a speed of eight miles per hour ? oh ventnor, where's ventnor? ah twenty two miles four right. four hours. right, now you get the answer to d two by dividing the distance by the speed mm? thirty two's the distance divided by the speed which is eight, thirty two divided by eight is four this is the rule for working out a journey time distance in miles divided by speed in miles per hour gives you the time in hours. right. you need a calculator. i need a calculator. ooh how many hours does it take to go seven hundred and five miles at forty seven miles per hour? fifteen hours. right. this is fun i like talking into this diagram shows the reach or an airline distances are in kilometres the figures for them are only rough one, a jet flies from beirut beirut to to bombay at four thousand kilometres. its speed is about eight hundred kilometres per hour eight hundred and fifty fifty kilometres per hour to work out the time it takes we do four thousand divided by three er eight hundred and fifty. the answer on the calculator is four point seven o five double eight two three hours but we do not need that as that to be as exact as that because the distance is because the d not exactly four thousand miles and the speed is not exactly eight hundred and fifty kilometres per hour . the nearest whole number of hours is good enough. the nearest whole number of hours do you take it by that number? the nearest whole number to four point seven the wh nearest whole number to four point seven nought five double eight two three is five because to the nearest whole number you look at that four, it's either gonna be four or five depending upon what that number is mm. isn't it? if that's five or more then you pu increase that by one and make it five. so the journey time is about five hours. so d four work out these journey times to the nearest hour. bombay to perth at about eight hundred and fifty kilometres an hour bombay to perth eight hours. mm? eight hours, right. rome to beirut two hundred and pardon? two thousand two hundred two thousand two hundred, right. four hours. right. london to london to geneva oh. geneva. geneva. hundred and fifty. one hour. right. it only takes half an hour to go to austria doesn't it? no, it takes an hour no it takes an hour and a half. mm, yeah,it takes four hours to get to lanzarote. six hours. good. right e now this is quite important, you've got to think about this calculate as work in decimals . but we usually think of time as hours and minutes and seconds too if we are being very exact. this scale shows both minutes and decimals as an hour. thirty minutes half an hour, nought point five mm right? erm fifteen minutes nought point two five. forty five minutes three quarters of an hour, nought point seven five and all the different calculations in between fifty minutes is about nought point that's nought eight, that's nought nine so it'd be nought point eight one, two four three isn't it? just over three. mm yeah. right? so it says this scale shows both minutes and decimals and now use the scale to change these to minutes . now what's point three of an hour in minutes? ten point no nought point three's there look mm now you want to read off the top of the scale for minutes. fifteen minutes that's ten minutes yeah. that's twenty minutes that's fifteen minutes mm. what's each of those little divisions? one minute. right so point three fifteen minut er fif eighteen minutes. eighteen minutes, right. b nought point seven five of an hour ? there forty five minutes. forty five minutes. c nought point four three hours nought point four three oh! four nought point four three there that's right, well what's that? twenty and six minutes si twenty six minutes. and nought point nought five of an hour? there mhm in minutes. three. three minutes. then e, change these to decimals of an hour twenty four minutes nought point four. nought point four. fifty one minutes? nought point eight five. nought point five, good. five minutes nought point nought point nought eight. right. and thirty five minutes. nought point five eight. right. right well we'll just do this then you can have a go on the computer. the distance from london to weymouth is a hundred and forty three miles the train takes two hours forty two minutes for the journey mm? we can find the train's average speed like this change forty two minutes to a decimal of an hour what's that? nought point seven. right. from the scale above forty two minutes equals nought point seven hours mm. that means the journey time is two point seven hours , two hours forty two minutes is two point seven hours mm. divide the distance by the time hundred and forty three divided by two point seven equals fifty two point nine round off to the nearest whole number that would be? fifty three. so the average speed is about fifty three miles per hour. oh. so do the first one here okay d two, london to bristol, a hundred and eighteen miles at one hour twenty seven minutes . nought point f n nought point four five. so one hour p one hour point, point forty five? one point four five yeah. nought point one nought. so that's the average speed? yeah er what did you do wrong? divided it. yes, but what did you divide by what? divided a hundred and eighteen by no you didn't oh. you divided one point oh no four five by a hundred and eighteen. oh. so what have you got to do? hundred and eighteen right, divided by by, i've forgotten what it was now. one point four five. aha! what's that? eighty one. right miles per hour. yeah. now just for interest's sake do what you did before, divide okay one point four five by one one eight, equals now that's the wrong way, you've done it the wrong way haven't you? mm. so push that button oh! oh!! it's turned it the other way round. it's the reciprocal button oh and a half, one over two the reciprocal of a half if you turn it the other way round it's two over one yes. so it's two. mm. a half is point five mm? the reciprocal is gonna be two. ooh. right? a quarter oh haven't we? that one we had first so oh finish that yeah, yeah just find it in the fridge i bought some ham as well today you know yeah because i like chicken with yeah and then some time, these the erm, you know they had some sausage left over, so i thought if i cook them then you know, if you wanted to we could cook the ham yeah or we can have ham tomorrow yeah or something, but i cooked have you got potatoes? where did i put that? you put it there and i put it somewhere else what's that? the mat? i thought i put it over there, erm i would only want half of these potatoes, would you manage those? ha, i don't know i'll have one anyway, i'll see then when i, whether i can manage the other half afterwards or not, cos it looks enormous well they're all big now aren't they? they are, that's right there was one that i had to throw away because it was erm oh is that so all damaged at one end and i, you know, erm thought i'd cut that away yeah but in fact it was bad all the way through mm so , i must confess when i say that we've had bad, like that time when did you give er lucy back her english? mm, mm i thought she was clutching it as she went past here but erm, oh you've had some? no i haven't, i haven't, when you've had yours this is the cheesy one i bought some beetroot the other day, they had some nice little ones, which i must cook, they were ever so cheap, i've forgotten how cheap but you know they were really cheap mm now can you see what i did with the lid at them? yes oh perhaps i never had it a man came here, from somebody or other double glazing oh i heard the bell go i thought it might of been pat sort of at that time, but erm when i looked out i saw a man with a billboard thing one of the little maps in the book shows the isle of wight with some towns round the isle of wight, and it said poole so she said poole, she said the boat sailed from out of france? so i said no portsmouth oh she said that's right she said i'm going from portsmouth oh is she? oh i said, yes she said, i like going on a boat, she said not that i've been on one she said she's never been on a boat across no i don't think any of them have you see oh, she's you know, when she's been to austria of course she's flown yes that's right so she's erm, quite looking forward to that she is, gave her some of the warnings that er no i didn't actually, but i shouldn't think it great easy to fall off a boat actually would you? no well having said that, if you're fool enough to sit on the side oh yeah but i mean if you're sitting on a seat or if you've got sort of have the rails ah, mm, mm, mm looking at the water, i think you would have to sort of climb up over the rails to fall in wouldn't you? oh yeah, you'd have to perch up on them, sit on them, you know mm well i mean you know, you know what children are, you never know what they might do i always took the point about the children in the hall didn't they? mm, mm they hadn't thought about that do you know, i reckon that sister josephine erm behind all this, she wanted that hall and she and father used to talk about this you see they want to extend the church back and do away with the car parking area as well, oh that's alright, but erm sort of can't see any point in it, i mean congregations are going down, they're not increasing, the church is big enough for what is necessary i would of thought wouldn't you? don't need a cathedral in it well of course you never know i mean if they close saint gregory's i wouldn't of thought they'd do that mm, i wouldn't, but they'd of more like i would of thought close king staiton because saint gregory's was a purpose built church yeah but i never forget the way that doreen when she said we were doing things, she said you shouldn't of started it she said, you'll only get kicked in the teeth at saint joseph's is that what she said? oh yes right from the beginning did she really? i didn't know that oh yes, when we came out here i'll never forget mark, not even saying thank you, not, not even for raising the money i mean i wouldn't expect that from the parishioners, that's what we should be trying to do, but even for the food and that, till erm kitty and and the way he got up then and said it, most ungraciously yes mind you i had to admit, you know me, i know, never have been very impressed with him with him , well for some reason he doesn't like us, well, you say i was thinking, i've been thinking as you know this is the sort of thing that i, gets on to my mind, but i was thinking to myself well really and truly we are so honest people ourselves, we don't go round you know and screw sort of fiddling things, i suppose it comes to hard to us when we discover other people have yeah but i know kay wasn't very pleased with sister about these sort of erm stout things, cos sister said well if they're not collected by the time of the next jumble, we sort of empty the cupboard and put them all in for erm the jumble sale kay said to me they're not hers to do that with mind you no, no, no that was, i mean kay did what she had to do and sort of got the person yeah, fair enough to do it, but sister wouldn't of even have that, she would of just erm, chucked them, but i know kay put a lot of work into, she's not coming who's not coming? whoever is due to come good evening, hello richard, mm, mm they have turned it down, oh good our prayers have been answered tell them mum says our prayers have been answered mm, good yeah, of course, yeah, oh was it? oh good, no well, erm, i bet you were too, mm, mm some justice yet that's right, yes, cos she was thinking it was friday, oh, you were there were you? yeah, was there a lot of discussion? no yeah, yeah oh yeah, very good, oh yeah i'm sure you are, jolly good, mm, yeah, fine and there's some, paul off half term of course, yeah, yeah oh is he oh very good oh of course you're going up to cardiff aren't you? yeah, oh well i hope helen gets on well, yeah when are they going, tomorrow is that? when are you going, when is it you're going? wednesday, yeah, oh well have a good journey, mm that's right, yeah, mm, mm, okay love thanks for phoning, bye, bye i was thinking of him today, at this erm planning planning, what did he say? he, it was unanimous turned down turned down he said now of course we have to wait and see whether they go to appeal, as, as of course he said they're entitled to do, but er she'd say they've just had a restaurant there, that wouldn't be so bad as a take away but getting back to the finances, i mean the two hundred club over the years it has been in operation, i mean with what it gets this, what they get this year, supposing it's not a thousand, supposing eight hundred, it might even be about eight thousand mightn't it? it might be eight thousand, yeah mm and i was just wondering if that is your girl who is due to come at a quarter past six then she erm oh yeah and i thought they were going to the meeting er on friday because i knew they were both off mm are you having any more of this? no thanks, that was very nice mm, it was weren't it? yeah i don't know why i've done this whole plate lovely i mean when you consider that the cost of those chickens yeah somewhere else, mind you they were very cheap ones, where was that? was it in erm sainsbury's? i don't know, i can't remember could of been mm in exeter last week, took, made me think about him i think in the fridge oh leave this washing up, come and have your erm, sweet oh yeah, well this won't take me a second er, well there's hardly that much to do there actually that's right this thing, this erm, sort of a dinner i think yeah alright? yes, very nice is it alright, you know quite happy with this? the father came out this morning to say that the hall could, one of the first things father told him was that the hall couldn't be insured, i mean it even staggered erm doris , cos she's not heard of that before, impressed, i don't know what impressed is, but i understand the go upstairs and get erm you see, you there? yeah jointly insured for major contingencies and potential legal liabilities, the recent re review however has highlighted that we can only insure our own legal liabilities and that we cannot insure or assume responsibility for your prudential legal liabilities this is to the rent is? yeah hall hired from you for a function injury due to affect the hall itself, e g the floor tile, it is likely that the responsibility for the floor tiling ensuing claim would fall upon us to be dealt with, however you're insured to lack of supervision public liability insurance but you see we can we insure only insure our own league and so it, i mean insured for major contingencies and that i mean you showed that to father when it was all, cos wasn't there something no i haven't showed this to er, i haven't showed this to no not to father no father michael oh he gave me this that's right he gave me this to yeah to send out and i sent it out to all the users that's right but, so they've got some sort of cover anyway, i think we'd better say well look yes father we're too old to be is that for birds, that fat? yes before you throw that water away we need to wash the grill pan now sorry i just ha, see anything else pardon? apart from anything else we might not be allowed to do anything like cooking or having sort of things to sell like that in the hall yeah i mean it is, it is ridiculous because we've had that november party down there, and if it does need a bit of planning, you just put the heat on a bit early anyway well i can't be bothered any more no, i think you just wash your hands, that's it, cos we've done long enough and i mean from say the sunday thing, i mean we've never ever thought of the sunday making thing, being a profit making thing have we? no that was always right from the beginning that's right it was always sort of for social thing and pe people couldn't pay well that was alright, they didn't pay as you say, we've done our whack really too true we have by the way is there anything we need to record, something no is, i mean i have to be out by half past seven, actually, something on half past seven on, you know, on the other programme that'll be worth recording i think, something about there is a ski safety in america yeah that's right, mm, that's erm what's his name, isn't it? john stapleton yeah so we'll certainly record that but is there not something on at seven? no i don't think so, not today on i t v, i make, i make the erm soup sort of peppery have some right high wycombe please, john seventy and that could well be, my mad, bad numbers , thank you very much, thank you, bye hello there you are how are you today? thank you very much thank you thank you a bit thick isn't it? isn't it just? yeah, okay oh you're coming down it's got one of those letters father gave you, father michael gave you yeah erm on the way it might be an idea to take it down with you well if i see him i mean i think you could say that while you were only a short time ago yeah you know and father's given you this mm to give to any of our yep erm well i was gonna come down as you know and sort of do something about the loos, but oh no what, what i wondered was if you can take some bleach down, i think there's probably some down in the loo downstairs, and at least put some of that into, can you do that? yeah i can do that and, what are you doing afterwards? coming back home? well yeah i mean i'm, i shall go up to the bank but that's all well i was just wondering, i wanted to go up to, or if you're at the bank you'll be near the income tax office wouldn't you? mm, mm and if you could pop in there, you know what it is i'm yes wanting, you know say that i sent away for erm yeah for erm tax credit you know but, but yeah okay about three weeks ago yeah i'll go in to them you know and if there is a form to fill in or whatever yeah you see cos you've got to get it filled in, in this financial year right, okay, well i'll go into the tax office then no i cannot see any bleach down there isn't there some in the nothing in the loo well do you think you could pop upstairs and look and see if i've got by any chance have i've put, put this heater on which might give us a little bit of, a little bit of warmth well i don't know, er up in the loft oh er, i mean you know it's, there looks like some like, it's almost like jumble isn't it? it does doesn't it? well if there's stuff that's you know, you don't want and it's all right for jumble, i mean if you want it for jumble take it, but if not we'll have it for jumble, i mean you know it's erm it's all the same kind of thing it's all the same sort of thing yeah that's right, yeah what are you going to do about this bottom cupboard? it's gone, it's empty oh it's empty, you've emptied the bottom have you? yeah oh well done good, all is oh very good there's this, what you see here is actually for your jumble is it? yeah right, okay that's fine that one was intended to go i expect yes that one was intended to go yes erm is this rubbish here? oh this is er, not that cos i mean we might we could of done with a plastic bag under it well we might be able to put some in a wheelie bin oh yeah, that's right, yes but shall we get, shall we let's get, get on with these yes oh well what? old semaphore flag eh? well they're meant no to be but they could of been should of been but they're the wrong colour tis the wrong colour innit? i think that's what, that's what i, i run a school you know for signalling, morse code and semaphore do you? yeah, they should be yeah there should be stripes across red and yellow or blue and white, but still they're i used to know my semaphore i'm, i've never really mastered the morse, but i used to know the semaphore aha come to that i mean i can put some of this in the car and dump, just take it over to the tip er yes alright, let's see how we get on and er, there again absolutely that , that has come off oh that cabinet hasn't it? it has too, oh yeah, i'll put that back up there put it back up and i'll nail it up some time when i bring up erm, i'll bring up a hammer i'll put it that way then that's right, yeah see exactly where it is, right, well we're er shall we, if i go up and hand stuff down will that be the easiest way of doing it? in fact some of this can be thrown can't it? can i drop that? that looks like a er yeah drop that can you manage there? yeah, alright you be careful won't you? yeah this can be chucked, i'll chuck it down alright old things here aren't there? really a lot of this is quite a lot of it almost chucking isn't it? yeah well that's, that's right i think probably if i can get this in a box it'll be a lot easier, cos it's a lot of loose stuff, that's a saddle, i'll chuck that down, erm, i don't know about these things, but er we'll ditch them those ditch them i think don't you? yeah tell you what, this is a bit of exercise this innit? yeah , well they say every step you go up adds a second to your life yeah yeah me too erm er this is, is a lot of school stuff in here, powder paints and paint, i'm just wondering whether being a school might like it, oh i don't know it's empty, that's empty, that's empty, that's empty, no ah, put it all in with, what's that er yeah put a use this you know what, oh yeah you can use this right that's fine, oh right, great, yes can use it alright, i should be up there on saturday, i shall load the car up and take them let me can i wait a minute you get down a bit lower and i'll drop it down to you wait a minute, see if i can just you be careful whoops that's right yeah, erm, i don't quite know what to do about this, this is, i've taken some stuff out, if i can slide it down the yeah if you, if i hold this at least until you get a bit down yeah, i don't, wait a minute, wouldn't you want this for your own kitchen window? i don't think so you won't, alright we've got , we've got ever so much stuff okay, i've got it is that alright? yeah there is another lot here in a bag, but this plastic is beginning to go, so i'll drop it down to you alright, i'm there mind the plastic because it might split that's right, there now there's some of these, i'll just drop them down onto these erm, so i'll drop it down onto that wait a minute let's yeah you know it's wicked isn't it really, cos some of this stuff, i mean this is not at all bad is it? no, got it can you manage? yeah to collect such no don't come up i'll slide this down it's not very heavy, i just put some bits of stuff in, it's not terribly heavy alright then okay?this is a box of tide soap powder, i mean there's quite a lot there if i drop this down can you just erm, not drop it down sorry okay? yeah i think that's the lot good, ha, i was, i was gonna say leave you to it yeah just as well i think actually in honesty they have taken quite a bit out of there, cos there was an awful lot of stuff in there, you could hardly get in at one stage now what are you gonna do with these bike things, are you gonna chuck them? oh yeah i think so, i don't think that i can make anything of it, i'll take that box to school because they might be doing a might be able to rescue that lot yeah anyway, i'll see what i can get in the car right well i'll, i'll open up mine and we can see what we can get in mine ooh it's a load of rubbish isn't it? i think if i take this lot to the tip now, i'll come back alright then perhaps we can dispose of yes, there won't be a lot left the rest of the stuff that's right okay? yep you'll be here for as i come back won't you? er yeah i'll be here is that all rubbish in there? all rubbish, yeah right and i think, i think in there er i don't think we're gonna get anything else in there no i don't think we are, well i can, i can get this erm right, well i can take that in er i'll take that one with me this is rubbish? yeah that's rubbish right, okay, give me a hand with this this as well, right didn't take long to get down the tip? no what a lot of stuff they've got down there, i can't understand why people threw it away i know there's windows and doors i know it's, it's fantastic isn't it? before the war people would of screamed out for that well i mean people say, you know, there's, there's so many poor people about, but there's no, there's not the poverty there was oh right, that's it, that'll do, i won't go any further and i can get the other things in well we had er, we had an aluminium friend, a double glazed enormous window over our landing and it was, the aluminium was so cold and it was conden there was so much condensation that we had a new window p v c put in, but i tried to sell this other window, cos it was beautiful you see, nothing wrong with it except you know, but nobody wanted it and i kept it and i had it for about two years standing outside and then i thought i can use that and i cut, it was a three section, three lots of glass all in one, cut down, divide it into two and one, and got myself a plant house under the erm yeah under my verandah yeah, yeah er right i think we've finished have you got to go to the tip? that's it yes alright, leave the car there just for a bit i want to go over and see the dentist just for a minute right alright? yeah, erm okay well i'll go, i shall be coming back here actually, but er, i'll take this lot i think now anyway, well no i won't i'll do what i've got to do here now and then i'll, i'll go afterwards i shan't be long, i'll only be about ten minutes okay, fine er those snowdrops are really quite something. a beautiful bank full of them. and you see they say that erm snowdrops really want the best way to sort of erm increase them is just sort of pick out a lot of those and then put them in another part of the garden. yes yeah. they, they're two ninety? mm yeah should be nice fuchsia there fuchsias. forty nine pence each or four fifty for ten. oh yes. it was three fifty for ten. mm someone's scarf? yes mm child's by the size of it. thank you very much. that's the second person that's c said that in the last three days would you believe ? yeah now what was that that went behind us? i thought it was a little er blackbird. oh was it? mm. i w i would have said it was an animal, you know? didn't, didn't fi oh yes erm you wear it right you're oh isn't it nice? skiing. oh yeah right let me get my broth back. oh oh we'll go back home if that's alright. unless you want to go somewhere else. no i, i was just sort of erm a wondering and b wondering whether to go back a different way round and well it's up to you cos i'm quite happy to go have that little walk, i wanted a little walk. but that's enough? oh no no no, i mean i'm alright if i sort of get on a a straight because oh these that are coming out mm that is out. no i'm alright as it happens, so that's okay. it's still okay left if you want to nip over oh back this way. mm did you hear christopher saying that he was going to be getting erm a new cavalier? yeah. having, having booked it that morning that's right, it was twenty pounds cheaper was it now? was he no it was twenty pounds a month less. twenty pounds a month less was it? mm. oh i thought it was more than that. they hoped it would get through. he says he was gonna have to get something anyway wasn't he? yeah oh yes. sort of a yellow yes tinge to that, don't know oh look yeah, there's a rugby pitch there, i didn't know there was a school there. that's one of those erm handicapped is it? . david could have gone to it. remember your mother taking david up to birmingham way where they had erm big new oh i thought it was me making all that noise. i was breathing and i could hear sort of i was thinking first of all it was coming from, you know somewhere outside like somebody sawing a tree or something. widening the road here or something. yes, just widening it and straightening out some of the bends. cos that was a bend there wasn't it, obviously. mm. gosh the valley goes really far down there. yeah it is deep down isn't it? one or two houses, you know, when i caught sight of it first i don't see them now. he must have been fishing. looks like it doesn't it? he's got a big keeper net there. was the disabled toilet alright? yeah nice little waterfall things. yes, a weir. it's good to have those on the ground, you know, for people who are gosh who are you know incapacitated. but sometimes people think well they're only for disabled but i don't believe that's so no i don't think it is either. because i think to myself well you know if there are no disabled people about, and more often than not there are not why shouldn't anybody use them? that's it. yeah we're going past. mm big erm tree tree that's making it fall down yeah. the thing is beginning to look you know light comes they're gonna get, yes through it. that's right. had to take a sort of erm south to erm not just thought of both the names and the other one but they would be nearer to exeter but it wouldn't be sort of in exeter itself i was thinking, you know, probably get erm you know, see if there's any new houses being built there and what sort of price and what have you. yeah. i'm not quite sure where you mean. well it's sort of on its way to exeter. chudleigh chudleigh mm we haven't been through this way for a long time have we? no we haven't. i could certainly do with a drink. could you? mm. well i suppose it's not far to go home for a well it'd be nice if we saw somewhere that was nice. or do you know somewhere? no i don't know anywhere, no. the the olde lion, don't think we'll go there. open for lunch and dinner. the coach the coach house house funnily enough i was going to say to you when we were out at erm dartington instead of buying that ice cream, we should of had a cup of tea probably would of been about the same price, and so yeah. probably the tea would of been better for us. small development, that must, that must be down there somewhere. but you see practically anywhere here would be within christopher's yeah erm you know, distance into exeter. i mean he was saying that er erm what do you call him? yeah he lives in erm in, in no it's warehouse units going up there, i thought it was gonna be housing, more houses. oh there i there is new housing, you know, there's more mm. development er back there, that's what made me think of it. they wouldn't want to be near warehousing units of course but erm there's a lot of new building going on and with so much competition thinking of imelda for a job, i mean there's, there's loads of places here as well for her exeter hospital you know the torbay. somebody mind you was on about torbay this morning on the radio i think it was saying that there were so many complaints and nurses are under such great stress. and i was very naughty i, i felt like saying well some of their, they, them aren't er do you remember the very last time we were up in the hospital at the waiting area, there was those two nurses that walked up and down mm mm about five times doing nothing. that's right. so really and truly i mean it's not all nurses that are so stressed. i'm sure there are some who are you know, are in a bad way and they're having to do other things that they shouldn't be doing. but this is the trouble with everybody these days isn't it? yeah. everybody just wants to do what they should be doing whereas with my job it never even thought about it did we? no, no. tell you what erm when we get into you can just drop me down to the greengrocer near the church because i'm out of erm spring onions and if i wanted to add up to that bit of salad that we've got right. tonight, if you're gonna have that, oh i can have a bit some other night then mhm but this week is the last that we can go to the erm beefeater and get that oh ha have you got that voucher still? yeah oh. off the cost of a meal. and then you get half of a bottle of wine as well or something. got double lines coming up that's funny stuck there like that well i didn't sort of notice what it was. oh it was just two oh i see, well some signpost, yeah poles for a signpost see them? yeah i can just see them in the rear mirror. oh could be for a signpost, yes it could indeed. red car's coming, coming as well. and another one as well coming. oh he was far too close you see, he was far he's going to tr she, he or she is going to try and go now. he was far too close to it and he didn't see what was happening you see. the other car did. he is telling it to go now look, you see he's put on his lights. yeah wonder why the police car put its lights on at that moment. i don't know but erm oh you were quite legit oh i was legit, yes, nothing wrong with me. i was well clear. yeah. the other one's not in sight, the whole of that straight. it never came did it? no. but i think the, the tractor driver put on his lights yeah to say it was clear. i was thinking when daniel was down here that erm paul you know and all his girlfriends, various girlfriends, for a long time now and i said something to daniel well you know are you sort of courting yet? no no, he says no, no no. and i don't think tim is very interested. i think there's many more women driving now aren't there? if you look. yeah. going round anyway so she's going round as well well i think i'll go round actually cos they're queuing up,we want to go to the grocers so er if we go up the avenue we shall just come past the front of it. colin something or other? i forgot in that second what it was yeah always happens to me. it was colin somebody. it is well worth going down yeah. i should think in this day and age they could now there look at that lot as well. i mean it's amazing isn't it? all on to one post. yeah. i think this building is dreadful for the poor people living in those houses just behind it. mm. oh but this is the erm council office as well isn't it? well there's in gonna be income tax isn't there amongst other things. their light and their view and everything, i think it's dreadful. and it would, i mean they, they wouldn't of even had expensive houses anyway but they must have taken their value away tremendously. at the back of the houses there but erm there's that and then there's the new doctor's surgery. mm. that's been pulled to bits in the erm press. yeah. i've not seen a lot of it actually, so far. i mean i must say it looks a bit bitty but erm er now you see up there they've got the same, similar sort of style really to those houses. did you ever get in touch with the erm no i didn't, no. it's not a t s er well i mean i want to find from a t s or someone like that how much their cars would cost well what was the one that erm maurice gave you? it wasn't a t s was it? no. that was, no that was that was byrite and that, but i w i would go there but i'd like to go there with some idea what the price elsewhere is. yeah. oh. round the corner. you'll be in the car. right, if i'm not there i will come round the block. he was looking at you. he's listening you see. go on, have a drink something. oh those daffodils are really coming out now aren't they? aren't they lovely? yes. oh one's gone right up to the top of the the other one's staying on the ground. well i mean we've still got two bottles there. even so i mean we might not be so lucky. yes, it'll be nice to have a cup of tea. shall i carry it through? please. now is there going to be enough there, salad- wise? i mean are you going to oh i would think so yes. cos i got that other meat, the red meat to do for a supper but i can do that for tomorrow well that's fine isn't it? does she oh you've taken the bread out have you? oh these bits? yeah i was just gonna have that oh you were? yeah. sorry. i don't know whether sh i shouldn't think so. i don't know ho they're gonna do, well i mean i don't know how they, how they work it. it must be quite a job i should think. i mean i don't think i would of but then he'd, apparently he seemed to have an older brother with him mm. it said something about yeah. the older brother had said, i, i can't really remember what it no. was. and presumably he would swim, but you don't know that, i just, it hasn't come out has it? the child is still very seriously ill in the hospital . it could be i have to put in my erm investment income. interest as well. but that is paid gross, that is paid, they don't deduct there isn't any tax deducted for that. oh that's right, that's right. but you have to put that and put your erm you've got to show all your income in other words. mm. they can find that ou find out the interest i suppose. well your, your book went in last november didn't it? looking up? i'm just looking at the selection of flowers. mm. and , when , was it november? it goes in in november, yeah. but i, i don't always put it in do i? no. i think you did this year, but i di i don't remember seeing those standing up as tall as that. they're really quite pretty. so it's starting. what are you, what are you going to for ? well just to get some of that erm soup mix or something or other. soup mix, yes. i mean i know it's stupid er i just wanted to and there's no hurry at all for it and if you'd rather go somewhere else now no it's alright, no we can go there. let's go there another time, i don't mind. we'll wander round, i mean let's to know that we can sort of just have a little walk as it were. yes erm i'm trying to think where there might be oh they've got names on those gates now, did you notice that? hillside? er here you mean? no on erm oh! the, what do you call them's? the 's. oh the 's, yes i think i have se noticed them, yes. the cottage is on one side and something on the other. and it's something on a big gate. this can be our half term treat. right. where did richard say was yesterday? you said something or other to him yes, i can't remember now. helen's is she? cos they don't have half terms do they? i think they do actually. oh do they? yeah. there you are, dog warden. dog warden yes, mm. mm. now i filed my nail this morning cos it was catching, i didn't file it long enough obviously, but i filed it with that erm you know you opened up the oh yes, yeah. and left the f the file on the windowsill i hope he pulls in and lets people go past. oh he's going left. he's going l left here. going into the cemetery. trouble is, person in front's got a trailer as well. oh yes, mm. oh he's going right right into there. oh this one's going right as well, oh, very good. what were we talking about? i don't know . i was talking about something, i don't know mentioned about paul and then i'd said about helen helen, yeah. anyway erm richard was feeling quite relieved about the i think so, yes the planning about the permission being turned down, yeah. no i don't blame him, i mean no i don't. lot of times i've, you know, thinking sort of is sh i mean he's got a nice house there, he doesn't want it erm that's right. spoiled. the trouble is i mean if, if it did, it came up and he wanted to sell it would of it would obviously decrease the value. yeah, that was what he was thinking of. you'd get all the rubbish from a take-away as well blowing into his garden, i mean it wouldn't have been very pleasant. much he reckons his house is worth now. but i suppose in a way they would have then been contemplating selling their own house and getting somewhere else before in fact yeah. it's a shame because i mean it i think what they've got is really you know, er er er they'd be hard put to it to get anything as good really at the price i think. mind you they'd probably get a hundred thousand for theirs i should think now. yes i think, that's what i was thinking of. do you remember when we used to come out here for the primroses? that's a long time ago isn't it? did we come out this far then? well used to come out to totnes didn't we? by oh yes oh the sun's trying to come through now. yes. said there might be this afternoon. i haven't seen any primroses sort of like in the hedges yet no. but erm yes the garden's alright but then they've been there in the garden all the winter as well yes that's right. there's a lot of sheep there. look! tony and doreen will be back tomorrow won't they? thursday they said. well thursday, tomorrow's wednesday. oh yes, that's right. police. said she'd try and er ? before the weekend, you know, to say mm. when they could come. she said that had been her first earliest morning. it had been? she didn't say anything about the no. possibility of a new job and i didn't mention it to her. no well i, i'm n i got the feeling bob said it wasn't i, i'm not absolutely sure from what bob said whether she even knows about it. i think i don't know, i may be wrong there but erm we ought to go down and investigate the erm the you know. mm. i know people say well oh it's, of course it's changed ownership, well things change ownership and it can be for the better as well for the worst can't it? the sit down snack bar yeah or something. didn't get to read no i didn't get to read it either. something on the right i think it was. bed and breakfast there, whatever that is. think that er sounded like a snack bar that might be on a mm. lay-by or something. must be here look. oh it is a lay-by, yes. yes that'll be it. gosh, suddenly a lot of traffic. that's the first we've erm mm. mm. perhaps it's market day at totnes? it's funny er when richard came in the other day and said he'd been he'd been to the dentist and you said oh well they haven't been in touch with us yet. yes isn't it?we ever meet this lady. it was funny to hear miss and not harold . oh is that her name? mm yeah. you can walk along the river can't you erm that's at dartington isn't it? erm and that's where you can walk along and you, you know, er when there are salmon leaping oh it's only the road, i don't think there's a, i don't think there's a walk along there not here. i thought there was somewhere. they've got that erm got that big sculpture somewhere about there. somewhere near the college i think. well i mean we can we're er i'll,w we'll i just can't remember. i'll go to dartington via that back road cos you can go that way turn off up here and see. was it through the grounds of the yeah college mm well that i'm thinking of? you can drive through the grounds of the college. are there lights? yeah. side and dart side. i can't really remember where it was exactly. we did walk somewhere one time and erm very very nice the it must have been the time when the salmon were riverside walk. oh yes yes. well we've never been along that, actually. still got a lot of erm yeah, making ponds and things by the looks of things. making new roads? making ponds by the looks of things, oh. yeah. wonder if the only time i was, when i saw this, was somewhere er when christopher was with us. you see that's no, oh no parking in this area. erm well it doesn't matter really, it was just that i sort of it looks as if there is a walk down there but we've never been on it but tell you where you may be thinking of, you may be thinking of that walk that goes towards the erm adventure park at the other side of buckfastleigh. no it wasn't, it was in here in the grounds of erm dartington. we've sat here in the car and watched the erm the birds down there. i'm wondering whether it was erm one ti er we, we walked up a hill and the the erm sculpture was sort of up on a hill. there's a railway line down there you see. yeah. funny isn't it? have to ask christopher if he knows. i can't think of how we got in. th there's that but that looks fairly that's very new, yes. there's a bridge somewhere, do you know a bridge anywhere here? funny isn't it? yeah it is funny. i, i have got a sort of vague feeling that maybe it wasn't with you we walked along it, maybe it was christopher and amanda. this is all the college buildings isn't it? there's park road there, now i've never been down there well i d gallery and now i've just seen traffic a long way down here, leading to ella park and warren lane, now i, i've never been along here and i don't know but i c coming up the road i saw cars down here car park for residents only. and that's no through road there, obviously. well there's no point in going through here then like that. he's turning right as well. cos we can get out here i think. oh is this the this is the car park. oh this is the car park is it? well this is the car park for dartington college but you can get out through here. yeah. oh well here's the college that i saw mm. art and design, up there somewhere, yeah. office department of art and design. cos sue might well be coming there. oh i should think it's more than likely. cottages. all these sleeping policemen they've got. mm. i suppose with all the students wandering about pedestrians yes i wonder where that was cos i'm sure there was a henry moore sculpture. oh there's a henry moore sculpture in the grounds yeah dartington. well there, it was there yeah. that we walked to the river, but then i don't know the walk no we sort of no. we walked up mm. to the like a field but we were near to the river when we saw the erm yeah. salmon. now can i get to the no i can't get to it there, through there can i? no. oh so you knew about the henry moore statue there? well i then remembered that we'd seen it and it's in the grounds. yeah well er you see this was in the grounds at dartington mm. mm. as i said. but it's that side away from the river, you know, i i can't link it with the river. well y we walked yeah. like er it would be a sort of mm. hill like that, a grassy place. suppose they've still got quite a bit of own a lot of put plants up there and there. 's quality meat, my goodness they're still going strong. gosh, lot of cars parked here for dartington. daffodils out yet. on the left oh yes. there or here. well there's one, two further along actually, so bet there are plenty up there. well there's certainly one there and one there and one there depends on which way they like to get in like to get in that door excuse me, do you know if this is the only entrance into this place cos we left our car in a car park and we there are three car parks ah there's one there that's the first level there's this one and there's a third one up there. and that's all, there's nothing no there's nothing down that way as far as i know. okay, it must be one of these then. okay it's one of these, yes. thanks very much. erm i i i that's the first one you come to, that one. n no, we went into about the second or third i think, is there one up there one up there well that's the second and that's the third so we can get to it by going up this way. or you can go up that way, yes but i mean if you, you know, you can walk through to make sure you're not there if you want, but you can go up, that's the way yeah. let me check this way then to to it. okay, thanks very much for your help. alright? it is a bit awkward isn't it? oh when you've lost your car park. see if they can't find it yeah well they don't think it was they don't think it was the first one, no. no mm now now where was that shop? well is it here? oh yeah it's food you want isn't it? so it's up here further. yeah. now what's in here? is this it? well there's, see look there's herbs and things here you see look. oh right. i mean it may be further up. no this is probably it. celery seeds, i was looking for some of those yesterday. what? celery seeds. i know i've got some but i don't know where. dill tops. what? i see dill tops, rosemary rosemary i go out to the garden for. mm yes you do don't do? mm. certainly some mixed scents here aren't there? lovely aren't they? erm you can get aniseed here. do you want some aniseed? yes. i mm. casserole mix, mm. is that them? is that what you wanted? think so. it's dear. what? homemade orange ground rice cake two pounds twenty. mm. so how much would your sponge make? sixteen pence? yeah. dear. homemade chocolate victoria sandwich two pound twenty. yeah. marmalade buns they look quite nice, how much are they? well i don't know, is that i don't think that's thirty eight is it? probably thirty eight pence each i should think. mm well i know, well that's twenty three pigeon and bacon pies. meat on there. doubt it do you? i shouldn't think so. minced beef and four times this year. oh yeah. what would you like? wha what variety do you want? maple and walnut, strawberry, chocolate i think i'll have the toffee. i'll have toffee, yes! apricot and vanilla. big enough toffee! oh! is very unpleasant. yes, well it might be . are they? erm . it's very soft that one, you'll find. thank you. i'll have a maple and walnut please? they seem to be the favourites don't they? the they have been over the past few days erm usually it was chocolate and apricot. so flavours do change. yeah. flavour of the month. that's right. that's one forty please? thank you. thank you. oh! mine's lovely! i could have a lick of yours though couldn't i? three sixty change. thanks very much! thank you. okay love? well, i've got a now! well that's, that's what i meant if we were make them that's the, that's why. plenty of at home. i was going out the other way ! is that the one you're gonna do? yeah. mm! lavender. rosemary isn't it? lavender. oh i dunno! perhaps it is rosemary! but are there, you don't get this with rosemary do you? oh it's lavender! yeah, so i thought. just stand here for a minute and eat your ice cream. oh, don't tell me that i shouldn't have this! why not? it's cor! why not! there's a lot of people here! mm? quite a lot of people. there are a lot of people here! oh that's . difficult to tell isn't it ? mm? difficult to tell! oh it's very , some places are so noisy! some old dears coming out bleeding apathy! ooh i know! what's yours like? very nice! they got a fire burning there or something, look! yeah. it is isn't it? probably in the restaurant. mm. mm! it breaks doesn't it? their rates it's because they are paying that's all! yeah. phoned up to see how much he'd charge me. it says maggi for men. pardon? it says maggi for men. maggi for men! oh! phoned up . i'm not sure if that is this. yeah, i think it is by the looks of things. oh, i'll ta i'll take mine through cos they'll surely stuff yes it is, yeah. around there, no? well, that's it anyhow. like the, i mean that doesn't really bear any resemblance to that but it's obviously the way. mm. well would you like one now? do you both want well one? that's alright, no. you see how they the cucumbers over there. no. have half a dozen of those floating around in the garden. sorry? say, have a dozen of those floating around the garden. yeah, they're nice actually! well yeah i su i suppose there must be! mm. no, i said do you want to? yes! well! have some stuff. well do you want to go into the fashion shop? i wouldn't buy the stuff in in here whilst . you know for a christmas decoration. they always get chopped down. oh i don't think you can walk here! we'll have to . yes. yes. you can go upstairs in here. probably, yes. say, the toilets yeah. it's sorry! sorry! i know you're not allowed. oh green that er oh no, look i was saying there are no primroses out yet! oh yes! there are, yeah! yes! mm. i noticed the green as we crossed mm. up there. oh just look at the honeysuckle . yes! i think that's good, cos we've got that. is it? you go there and have a look at and snowdrops in it as well! oh yes! there a lot more over there look! oh yes! it's lovely! beautiful! ever so many here as well mm. just coming out. you really crossing roads. i'll have a go. what do you say? the fish thing. oh yes, there's a lot there look! yeah. here it comes. okay. shall we just look in here and then we'll have for lunch? yeah. what's the time? time? ooh! ten past three. ten past three? ah. right, you're going up there. yes. la la la la! all the way. mind the ! special designs a special design. available o in request for so many other designs in stock. mm. that's er the design you want mm. isn't it? yeah. yo when will you be able to see them better ! that's four ninety five for that . mm. suppose an unusual yeah. well that's a sort of erm water based isn't it? yes! mm! no. and that's where they and that's where they do the do the pots. so , mm. oh yeah! pardon? the water is a bit dirty looking isn't it? yes, it is isn't it? although you can still see through it. yeah. probably just the bottom that's dirty. and you can they're going to the i gather. obviously! mm mm ! they've got a there as well. mm. there's lots of these old sort of posts along here with these holes in them. yeah. almost looks as if they're gates or something . yes. they're big aren't they? mm! take yeah. a nap is that about what you wanted? yeah ! don't they? mm. it's only because of i know. perfect gentleman! thank you. see look at all those cross pieces, they look as they've been there for some purpose, you know? i mean these haven't just been put here, they've been there for a long time! yes. see look! you see there's original cross piece whatever it was! you know, they're obviously cutting paths through oh yes! there. or the erm few blocks over there look! mm. then go right at the back again do you reckon? i don't know. i don't know that's a sort of a proper path there. er well if it wa if it was it would be very convenient cos it would probably come out on the car park but er that's the you say? yeah. well we could try there. well! there's another one along here, look there! yeah. look at all the erm cars going up to those houses up there look! yeah. gosh yes! well do you want to walk back along here and see whether or do you want to walk a little further along here? well i don't mind just a little bit. well we could always sit on the seat when we come back. if i'm mhm. exhausted. we'll probably get and having to walk along. well perhaps we better not go down cos we shall have to oh come up again shan't we? okay yes. that's right ! right, well we'll go back. we can't walk well we could go , go along there, i dunno, go along here and see whether it comes out. no i don't think so. no. go down. dad! that's right here. look! you have to wait here. up to the and across there. what? up here towards dad. alright. there we are! oh! he's got quite a job hasn't he? mm. yes i know. the weir there! must go right up to the edge. mm. look at them then! yeah. mm. yes. it's all very nice! sorry? said it's all very nice! there's a bunch of daffodils up there actually in the, yeah. oh yeah! whe what, where you was whe , that's where i was, yeah. thinks what were these do you know? they were leet hangers. they used to carry leets . oh did they? yeah, that's, oh! yeah. well that's what they told me anyway. yeah, well that's, that makes sense doesn't it? yes. yes , they seem just about level that's right. yeah. for the the mill. down to the mill of course. yeah. yes. oh thanks. more flour and that's right, yes. free, free flour. ha. yes, it's amazing isn't it? yeah. wha and he said leets what you're hanging something on them? no , if he er, it'd be a, a wooden trough with water. oh! it'd be a leet and it carried the water. oh i see, yes! you see? erm, in fact further down there you've got the leet on the ground going down to where the waterwheel is. oh i see, yes. mhm. and er , but this must have been a leet that came haf , from higher you see? yes. yes. oh! so, would there you know. be other ones that are going, going up there? well ha , we saw higher up , we saw the yeah. th the carriers you see. they've got daffs er, coming here you know, see? oh that's right yeah. l good morning! oh ! alright? thank you very much indeed! thanks. bye! thank you. bye bye then! thank you! hello. have you any erm stamps? first class or second class sir? second class. yes. five please. right. certainly! i'll get those for you. give that gentleman his paper. there you are. that's right. lovely! thank you very much! thanks mr . five seconds my love. that'll do. let's see what we've got, ooh i dunno if i've got, ooh yes i have! yes i have! that'll be ninety pence won't it? five tens are that's right! fifty, five eights are forty, ninety pence. good job i learnt my tables when i was at school! there's a lot that don't do it these days! well my son does. they're very hard at his school, we've always done them! it's very important! it's ever so important! but, from an early age because without that's right. tables you can't do multiplication, it takes so , it takes so long to do everything you see. you can't do anything! that's right. you know, and i mean where he used to go to school they didn't teach them them till they were ten! what the hell of a use is that! no good at all! so i mean he is very, very good at his tables and we bought one of those early learning tapes when he was quite young that you sing yeah. to. mm. and i always learnt mine parrot fashion using that's right. sticks. that's right. and then we got a table tester to help them refresh their memories, it's like a disc and then you got the slots and then it tells you your eight times and that's good as well but i mean he's got them off by heart which is brilliant! well it it saves so much time as well you see because and you get on so much quicker with everything! well absolutely! and i mean, fortunately he is very good at his maths and he's quick at his sums and things because he knows his tables. there's erm that's right. so much difference! well i've got, i pu put a program on, i've got a computer and i oh yes! put a program on the computer for maths oh right! and it's er it's erm it's a table program amongst others, adding oh that's good! and subtraction and multiplication. yeah. but, you know they can pick it and er, it just flashes up and they have to put the right answer in, if they get the right answer it it goes on to the next one, if it oh that's good! get the wrong answer yeah. then i it says no that's wrong! sorry la whatever he name is that what age group is that for then? well this is really for anybody learning the tables. but, primarily it's it's it's, you know top end of the primary school. oh it sounds good! but you co could go on, i mean if you if they don't know it you can still use it when they get to secondary school. what computer is that then? oh it's er, it's erm b b c or it's a tandy actually , it's one i had yeah. given me about eight right. years ago. so, and it's an old one actually oh! but i've put, put my own program so that the ah! that's a good idea! but how old is your he's nearly ten. yeah. nearly ten. but he has,we we've only got, my husband's got a computer at work, we just got one of the segas, the master systems you know that you you got th the games that you put in those but he wants to get another one next year but that's a good idea something like that! should be very good for schools i would think, wouldn't it? well, yes of course, i mean i, the schools have got programs i mean you can, you know they er yeah. yeah. da ta for it. yes. but that's, i think that's a brilliant idea actually! because where he goes is a smaller school where they go and erm i think something like that is nice for them to actually where does he go? he goes to a school in the tene valley, it's a teacher that, he used to go to exeter school and the teacher's opened her own school and, only for lo a small time and then she's opening up actually in exeter but this is an in between and she's a very good teacher! that's great, you see! and you see she's bringing him on very well! yeah. i mean there's only a few kids there, they're all good mates and it's like private tuition. but, i that's right. mean you pay for it, course you do but then that's right. on the ar , we well you know we've paid for his education since he was seven because he wasn't doing anything at primary school! half the teachers le left them doing nothing! it's a shame really! yeah! yeah! but er you know, and it would have been such a waste cos he's bright. but that he was always naughty! they used to write back and they said he was always being sent out and i said that's because he's bored! he couldn't be bothered you see. and how many more children slip through the net that way? that's right. it's very true. an and so we we said right, that's it! we'll have to get him out and pay for it and it's worked total dividends! i mean he's very good at maths. they say maths and science are his strength subjects well i'd never have known that if he was still over there! i was just told he was a a fair average. you know? erm can i have sixteen of those there? how many darling? sixteen. they're two each, you know that do you? oh! i'll have yeah they're two each my love. er, then i'll you can have ten can't you? if you've got twenty. erm yeah i'll have ten of them then. cos you got twenty for your crisps then haven't you? yeah. and erm right. yeah are those all one p? yeah, all those my love are one p. erm i'll have erm yeah, ten of those. er these ones? yeah i'll have erm twelve of those. one, two, three, four, five, six ten twelve! right, so what have we got there? we got thirty two and twenty, should have fifty two? and that's what you got innit? here's your crisps. here are love. there's your . alright? fifty two, thank you love! that's my allowance. mm? that's my allowance! oh! no i wa i'm i've i you haven't got a number or something i could always go in and ask his teacher she's never interested in if you've got a a tape or anything. i mean if you do know sort of yeah! erm i mean this is only a er this is only a sort of a a wa a program i've built myself oh! but i mean, you know, yeah i mean it's erm if you have just, you know, drop it in yeah. in cos it's always handy to give to her because she's she's looking for you know, i mean, sort of you know different things all the time and she's got various one of those? twelve ninety five? teachers that that come and help and erm no not one of them cos they're frozen! they've got one of the teachers from the old school who's very good at maths and erm geography you can have these jelly tots. and erm games. and erm, she's very good! she's a good all-rounder and she's good! or you could have a milky bar? or a fudge? but i mean i'm so pleased with it! could have some fruit gums? i mean, i've noticed that just yeah, it's great isn't it? well want some fruit gums? you know er, i mean we went only about ago. fruit pastilles? thank you my love. fruit gums as well there. yes! first or second my love? oh ! erm first. don't you ask for it ? that's that's mine! that's twenty four. i have to take that one separately though yeah. for the stamp is that alright? they are to take granddad's this afternoon. you're not eating them now! oh yes! thank you very much indeed. yeah. mummy i've seen daddy in there! mm. fifty five change. put it on the shelf again please? yep! okay? thank you very much! hello there! what have you got today? you've gotta have day today. five , that's twenty two. here are, twenty two! seventy pence! thank you very much indeed! in fact they're so espe . right. cheers! thirty change my love! thank you thanks. very much! yeah. yeah. very mm. handy to know! did he need a bit of help with his i mean a lot of them did made them that sort of i just found a lot of was so so behind and so i it's i , i'm terribly sad that it happens, but it shouldn't happen, you see! and the thing is i found, also, it was ge da bo to to what what i found serve this dear lady! what is the , tomorrow will do! it's the wrong, it's wrong you see it makes no discipline and the staff er er just bringing you work then! they should of had . now that's sixty one isn't it? yes my dear! , much better? oh twenty she's alright thank you. well i . oh right! yeah they say oh yes she's alright! alright! yeah, cos it's usually a friday, they do mess me about! it's not right is it? course it isn't! we'll have to complain is it? to the management! fifty, sixty one ! thank you dear. oh well it's nearly pay day we'll see isn't it? thank you love. oh i shan't somebody didn't even know how many months there were in the year! i know! i can imagine! you know? yeah. and days in the year is, is a i know! is a closed book! i used to help them there and one of the teachers oh my god! i used to help with sticking the the er money onto the well this used to take about, you know, an hour all these kids didn't know what two pence was, didn't know what twenty pence was and ten pence and fifty pence and then we, they were in go about groups of seven and we get all this done then it would be assembly, then it'll be games and then that'll be it for the whole morning! and i said what have they learnt? nothing! what have they done? and then she would listen to them read, well this is what they finished with they'd have a book and they'd take it up and she'd listen to one line! how can you tell how er fluent a child is with it, with their reading that's right! and their, and their word knowledge by one line on a book? there is no way! and it was just reading , listen to, go and pick what books they wanted to. if they wanted to! if they wanted to! yeah! yeah! that's right! and i and my lad would bring home all these damn great big books that he couldn't read! so i used to buy erm i used buy a lot of er the meg and mogs cos i found that they sort of helped him. i mean, i was brought up on janet and john, you know well it's great! but it was a number, you wrote down the one you wanted to yep! and the it's progression! by your word knowledge! that's right! and erm wha what happened was we had martin er assessed by an independent tutor, a guy that teaches and he erm gave him some tutoring with maths, like probably yes and he said he's very bright! he said but unfortunately because he's boisterous, which he is and because it's easier for them with their numbers to let him just get away with it or say oh martin go outside we can't, you know, then then he wasn't learning to that's right! his full capacity. so where he is now, they really stretch them but they unwind them in the afternoons by games and and that's it. and, you know yeah. dra , and drama that's right! and er as it should be done. and he's getting on very well. because he went to little abbotsbury prep school and at the age of four i mean, he could read and read quite well actually, and erm write very well actually! and do lots of things that i knew he was capable of doing. and i learnt from various teachers that when you go to these private schools and they've been to schools, they hold them back because they like, they don't like the they don't like somebody no. they that's right! they, they like it it it upsets the system! yep! but like there and be all the same and that really upset me! and i thought my god you know we've got him really on this far that's right! and then it gets held back! and then he played in the afternoons! and i i , you know at six and i said my god he did that at abbotsbury when he was four! that's right! and so,i i mean it was to me it was a total waste of time over there! i'll be honest with you. yeah. and i live so near i know! that damn school it really, i thought it's a shame because years ago when miss what was her miss . miss and they had a lovely violin group there and but it's down to head though isn't it? i mean you know? and you know, and it was tremendous! thank you love. but i it's a shame because you see it's, it's really down to the a lot of the advisory staff and erm yo your teacher training colleges because there was a period when, i mean, i was always very formal i mean i, i, you know i think it's the right you've got to work and and th yeah. we had exams and you know? that's right! er, it was er re and the three r's! which are so important! course they are! vitally important! but, towards the end, before i retired erm a lot of the staff didn't like what i was doing because i was still, you know,ant and the advisor would come in and say you know, you should do it,yo yo you know, it's too strict! there was that chap that was sacked up the country wasn't he? that's right! he was there being pushed out same sort of thing you see! because you see they didn't but things are beginning yeah, that's right! to go back you see. but you see it won't help my lad! or doesn't help . no, that's right! that's right! it may, i mean i in the next decade it may help those but it, you see yeah. that's why we had to get him out because it wasn't gonna help him! that's it! and this new curriculum at seven that's right! was gonna do nothing for no. him! my er my son, one of my so yes, erm on the other hand there are some there are some very good comprehensive schools! oh yes! i mean you can't, you can't erm thank you. thank you love. there's some very bad grammar schools! yeah, i agree with you. you know, again as you said earlier on it all comes down in the end to the head! you see we've had some very good reports , i mean that went through a very bad patch but they've this new doctor colin he's meant to be pretty switched on mm. and erm they say, you know it's it's turning into a very good school! so that's one possibility to look at. but i mean a a grammar doesn't suit every child does it? some kids erm er , you know. no it doesn't, you see. i mean i yo , i would always say, you know if a child was borderline mm. if there was a doubt then he would be better not going to a grammar school mm. because he would be at the top end of the other school that's right! that is exactly that! and then success breeds success! that's right! that's right. erm whereas right. er the same child goes to the grammar school, he's in the c stream, he's at bottom yeah. at the end and they perhaps don't bother quite so much and yeah. he, he drops back, he gets yeah. further and further and further behind. yeah. now i found that, you see, cos i passed my eleven plus and i lived in hampshire and the grammar school was hampshire grammar school for girls, which was quite a long way away from where i lived and it would have entailed a bus and the train and i and there was only me that passed and i, i didn't wanna do it. so i went to a very good secondary school but i was in the a one stream right the way through and i was always within that top three of that a one stream and it gave me confidence and i really got on. and i never regretted not going. no. that's right. you know a lot of people said to me oh how stupid! to my mum, you know she's passed, you're daft, but there'd have been so much hassle for me to get there! yeah. and i didn't feel confident, and i wasn't happy within yeah. myself and my mum said if you're not, then you don't that's right! wanna go. that's right! and that's how i felt about yeah. it, i didn't and i felt i'd have no friends around where i lived and you know, i'd always be alienated, i'd always be home later and i said to my mum i don't think i can cope with it, so she said right then you don't go! and i didn't. and i never regretted it, i'll be quite honest with you. and i think lots of children probably feel that way. yeah. and that's right! you know. but it's ha! nice talking to someone about education cos i talk to some people and they think i'm crackers cos i took my kid out of a state school! you know? ya, i i, i'm only sorry that you felt you yeah that had to! and i'm sorry i am! the fact that you had to! i am! erm but i, you know i think that's that, that's an indictment of it you see because i oh it's cost us an arm and a leg! it really has! yeah sure! an and it's what makes me so cross as i walk past that blinking school every day and you think my kid should be over there! that's it! that's just the way i feel yeah i know it's sad isn't it? do you know what i mean? yeah i do. i do know what you yeah. mean and i think it's, it's, it's a shame! it's awful really! when i speak about it i get so upset that they've got three or four and they can't ! and that's right! you see. you can't! and there, lots of people and and lots of them actually they came from abbotsbury and that all their kids were doing so well and then this period of a year, nothing! no progress! no ! i know! well you know! nice to talk to you see you again. again. bye bye! bye bye! erm lady in the post office eh? you know that new one that's in there? yeah. she's ever so nice! th the the oh yeah. but er i don't know how we got onto it er sh and i think she said something about oh, she knew her tables yeah. and erm you know, she'd come from hampshire apparently and she an an yo you know, er we got talking about ma and she's taken her child away from the local school and sen , is now going to a little private school up the tin valley, near tingrace apparently. fra good morning. yes. i it's erm monsignor , that's right, i recognized your voice. yeah. yes. right. would you hold on a moment i'll just get margaret to the phone cos she really deals with the bookings hold on a second! monsignor . he wants the hall ma march the twenty sixth i think. i i he's got to organize meetings for priests to deal with the new accounting system. hello monsignor! yes, i'm just looking and march the twenty sixth is free. the twenty second, the friday? yes, that's fine that's that's free. i'm a large friend ! okay then, what time? what time? six thirty. and obviously you want go in a little bit before that just in case somebody comes. yeah. mm mm. yes. fine. is that so? and we have got, i must tell you, i don't know if you've been, and win , we have got it in the hall i don't know if you've been in recently but ha we have got some new chairs! is that so ? no, no, no, no, no, no they may be functional but they look better! right. i, right away monsignor! right. six thirty, twenty second. lovely! yes, bye bye. god bless! of march is that? yes. when you in newton abbot leads all the rest of us follow. that's what he said. he, that's what i, what i used to say when i was there! oh! ha! gracious! now six fifteen monsignor . it's a meeting of parish priests. and . ah! right! and they want it open a little bit earlier because erm you know, in case anybody comes. what does he, botham opening big trumps hicks is hoax. hoax. er, what does that mean do you think? well it means that if if botham does open then the only place for hicks is in the middle taking lamb's place so when lamb comes back he'll be out. he might not have a place. there's one here about british gas complaints about british gas rose a hundred and thirty four percent last year according to the recent offgas report. in one case a leeds man received a quarterly bill for more than three thousand pounds after british gas engineers fitted his new meter back to front ! very funny! good gracious! times may be tough but it seems we're taking less care of our money than ever before. according to the royal mint around twenty three thousand pounds of coins a day disappear! some is taken home by tourist and some is lost in the street and down the backs of sofas. but amazingly we are just as careless when it comes to bank notes. last november the old style fiver with the duke of wellington was withdrawn yet there are still sixty million missing ! you can understand sort of you know,th the coppers and that that as they say get down behind sofas and what have you but erm it is quite amazing where notes get to isn't it? sixty million's a lot isn't it? yes. that's quite interesting that! there's a mutilated notes department as well that you can send really screwed up notes to. yeah. haven't you heard before about that then? but how i know, that's what somebody told me. to send some notes in yeah. you know, put them in the washing machine. they they have in there and they take out bank notes and coins from the washing machine. but, so long as you first. erm oh that's right, well the they detail here exactly what you need to have. but, you know, that's how i knew there was a department somewhere because they do i think just, if you've got the number you can take it into an ordinary bank. yeah. amazing! yeah ! yes, i know how we got talking to this girl in the post office cos i erm i asked her for some stamps as well, you see, i wanted some cos i happen to be sending stuff of for germany tomorrow. and i haven't got any second class stamps so i thought well i'll get five and it was, you know, dealing with that that erm yeah. it cropped up. you didn't say anything about school did you? oh no , no! but, i mean that's why victor came away wasn't it? that's right. she was really upset about it. bet you were surprised to hear monsignor on the phone weren't you? i was , yeah! i've i, when i heard you saying you recognized his voice i thought to myself well perhaps he's sort of inviting you to er, whatever! oh aye! and they were going to be here. yeah , i never thought of that. no, i, it was just that i, you know, i mean he i recognized the voice really as he spoke. yes, distinctive. got a very oh yes! very distinctive voice hasn't he? it's still only half past nine so that's not bad! what? i said it's still only half past nine, so that's not bad! have you gotta get any milk this morning? yeah. i'm gonna put this french this is a little french thing that soma er we brought back . oh! oh you'll have to charge them francs for it. but then we'd be looking for francs. and shra , oh you said francs didn't you? yeah. yes, i, the birds don't half have a go at those nuts don't they? look at them, one, two, three four, five on there! yeah. you know? yeah. yes there are. and the one on the left. yeah , that's right! and one there. one, two three, yeah. there's one at the back on that erm yeah. hanging one. and one on the other one. they're so busy around here! i mean, in the trees as well aren't they? they're always yeah. perhaps may it is because we've got all these trees i mean yeah. was saying when she lived out at erm cos i mean there were trees about there where their hou that's right. but the nuts didn't come to her house. where has that come from? where's what come from? i'll put it on there. i can put it on there. it's alright! well i knew i had caps on all the others. yeah. but i had one over, as it were. suppose i mustn't really, i'm reading this morning. let's have a look at that. well you always thought about going to the beefeater a bu really i suppose it might be better to go today than tomorrow. cos today lucy will be here but tomorrow might be more difficult. well erm because i wouldn't sort of finished till quarter pa i said to kevin as he was talking, he came to help to wash up yeah i let him erm and er go and help you because i thought you know you might have a natter with him or something he said, you on the finance committee? oh he says no he says i'm no good at figures, i said well not alike except blonde ones i said you know cos he made he made a joke about a blonde you see just before that, anyway and i said i just wanted to, do you know who is on so he said oh he thinks is on and that must be the from that is that is the one that left the erm heater that's it yeah, and erm i was erm wally and gordon and he thinks there's another couple you see, so i said well, you know, and i told him about the heater you see and he know, i said when people sitting on their backsides in committee making decisions, i said, you know, i said it just makes me bloody well annoyed, he said i know he said they don't, they, they make the decisions and, but they don't do the nitty gritty, they you know yeah the person that has to implement these things they don't and i said these, none none of those would have the foggiest notion about it about the hall about the hall, you see you, as i said to kay, oh of course kay has this you know on about this scouts but, she did say she did this that and the other thing as well you see, but there's nobody knows anything about the hall in its new state as you do that's right i mean you don't i mean i was asked to do it right from the word go wasn't i? and you dealt with the erm, the, the various taxes and whatnots. that's right as i said to kay it's terry that does all, he gets the money in, he pays all the bills, muriel brings him the bills, i said he does all that apart from the fact i said he spent the whole day yesterday, the whole morning yesterday here clearing this, oh she said i did as well, erm you know help, i said what you, but as well as clearing stuff, i said he swept the hall, i said look how nice it looks this morning, i said and he did all the toilets and everything else i wonder who did then and you see sister makes all these arrangements, it's she who does so many of the arrangements, she has made the arrangements about there being no coffee, several people have come to me and said i don't know why you've got to stop coffee because we can always go over and have lunch anyway, you know, er after the coffee, but jean came to me she said look i'm giving you this, and she gave me three pounds, she said i would much rather that was put into this, there your charity thing than take it across the hall, she said my margaret won't go over there any more, because they, they say, you know, put in for your lunch what it would cost yeah to have a lunch out if you don't go for a lunch out that's right, she said margaret never goes, i said well we never go for lunch out, we hardly ever really that's right erm she's got a family margaret, she said she won't go there any more she i, i don't know whether that er jean does so didn't she just cotton on quickly,she said do you know that, i said why do i want anybody wandering in my house and my kitchen, i said it's a bit like it's clean, why should i have somebody sort of, well i mean just because i'm doing cooking, she said you wouldn't stop fancy one, you never know, she said well unless you want to stop at the, please don't, you'll let me still have your jam won't you? so i said and she cottoned on what i had in mind michelle said to her well how will this sort of erm what are you looking for? erm cheese oh yes there's cheese there, how will this erm, yes of course there's there if you want to, have that with a biscuit or something, i said what about this then, erm everybody gonna be taking things to sell at the stalls but they what, i wonder what about that? and that's true you see isn't it? yeah well of course it's bureaucracy going barmy isn't it? really another one of these for you for tomorrow, oh god, rest of it, oh it's only on the cloth it is dirty anyway another one of what? a bowl of soup oh you know, there, made another i mean the next thing they'd want to do is to come in and do in this kitchen before you do any cooking for yourself i mean who knows, this soup may be erm contaminated contaminated been in the fridge this is there is room for soup, i'll put it in this one there anyway did you say there's only lucy or is there lucy this afternoon? lucy she is coming as far as you know? yeah and that is quarter past four yeah her usual time as far as i know, mm this is nice soup again oh did really that chicken was jolly well worth it's wi weight wasn't it? mm but, two good dinners we've had from it that's right two lots of soup and there'll be, it won't be a full bowl for you tomorrow, but there'll be about half a bowl unless you want it now? no no, mm i have a word here belittle beginning with a d third letter from the end is an a, so i put depreciate denigrate but the third letter has got to be an s , as it turns out now the third letter's got to be an s i heard you say that as it turns out now so, so it's wrong i wouldn't of thought denigrate was erm that's to belittle yeah i know no you don't really well that's the same as denigrate i mean that's erm sorry? what i had was the sa same sort of delegate or something is it? so it's e blank s what's, what's that poker stake? what's that what? poker stake, a stake in a game of poker, it's got a special name, four letter word i don't know poker i don't, but erm wonder where, wonder where the word penthouse came from? surely it's with somebody you know, some connection with a prison or something, didn't it? i'm not up with the name of it oh no , no the name of a prison penthouse pentonville pentonville, yeah they're just an expensive flat and of course the answer's penthouse you just wonder where these words come from that holly the other day was saying where do the names of the weeks come from and of course some of those some of those have got an origin i think thursday is it's, it's got a thought isn't it, yeah? got a thought, yeah , but erm sunday has, what's that? tuesday certainly has and wednesday, wednesday is woodens day god of war of norway or somewhere or something like that, or it is sort of thunder mm thunder isn't it? mm no that's er making me jolly cross, not like myself i don't do anything like, not as much as i used to do at the hall, i mean i used to do a lot as you know, but i, i know how much you have done, but nobody else knows aha kay said i know, i said kay you couldn't begin to imagine what he does, and of course she said, and she had been doing that erm painting, father came in and said something like oh you, you've done a good job there, but she said he never said oh go over to the kitchen and get a cup of tea he just doesn't think you see because he but he never did actually no i mean that's typically irish of course, irish male oh dear, dear i suppose that could be a good argument for having married women priests. well i often think there, there could be something for women priests because they would see the more practical things that had to be done let's get this out of the way i've bought that erm raspberry jam and some strawberry jam for us, i didn't realize that this would want replenishing as well oh the chocolate chocolate, yes but you see somebody i think it was erm what's his name? erm what's his first name? who, wally? he's a little, a little chappie who comes in, came in this morning les les, yes, that's right mm, mm erm, he said i don't know we've got to stop having the coffee, so i said well erm sister had spoken kay doesn't know why anyway, nor does erm kevin and erm denise so in other words it was an unilateral decision oh yes, sister made it well i mean we can always unmake it presumably cos next week it will be, it'll be different time i expect won't it? a natter about ten i'd expect won't it next week? er yeah it's usually ten isn't it? but i mean there's a wed a thursday night we could always of said you know meant it to be on thursday ours not to reason why apparently erm sister josephine us, she went off by train to wherever it is she's gone, but will be coming back with another sister in a car tomorrow oh so, do you know, i was thinking the other day, you know sister margaret we like her very much really don't mm, mm we, with this erm pressing mm, mm with her really, we never get the chance to, but she is always on her own, none of the other three, if you look, never no sit near her, talk to her or poker stake is ante a n t e. is it? mm take an ante bet or something well, mm ante post betting that's, that's erm something, no well that's not that's anti a n t i that means erm no it isn't ante a n t e ante post betting on a race before a race? i don't know when it's for, but it is for when, that's what it's called, you get a list and it is sort of ante it's like ante natal, before no it's not, oh could be, ante natal, yes before the birth before the, before the race but not ante, you thought that was a n t a or something you put the other thing with anti, but it isn't, or are we at cross purposes, you don't know what you're talking about to me and i don't know what i'm talking about to you so south african captain was thrilled with the way his men overcame the odds to beat australia, worsel lane, vessel's the main man of the match after leading his side home he used to with an unbeaten eighty one said it means a lot to me to win here against this team. australia made a good start and we were a bit behind the eighth ball after i don't really, i don't really alan ball admitted his men had it all to do after his men crashed to south africa, the australian wicket went for a duck as a defending champion slumped said we are going to have to do it the hard way now, we just didn't play very, we didn't get it together against new zealand in the first match and today we were never in the picture, our brothers never really had a chance of any attempt of a hundred and seventy, but full credit to south africa they are a rate, a better to side yes they really made a south africa made a stunning with a nine wicket, nine wicket triumph mm this erm what ever he's called yeah apparently he paid for his and sort of fairly recently gone back to home to south africa where he where's that? mm good gracious me look at that a hundred and seventy one for one mm after about forty six overs oh er, that, oh dear, fancy that australia don't even get into the semi finals oh they're the favourites apparently, the kids they, they have it now that's right they are, well england, england next, but even so you see that's erm, that's in, that's incredible mind you when england come against south africa let's hope they of course if anything happened to us tomorrow or tonight because we play west indies tonight there we go, mm still at least we've won one game leave those i'll see to them what? i think perhaps i'll just have a little bit of water i'm very thirsty, i know i haven't so am i , i'm going to have a, oh have a, an orange and a lemonade that's right, that's what i'll have well you mustn't forget to have a wee before you go out that's right i don't know who that woman is? those were the, oh yes got one of those right i'll have these then and this, if you want the sugar kay was saying that they're promising heavy storms and erm gales oh they are yes, for tomorrow or tonight yeah but erm cranks at dartington oh he's talking about that is he? yes, that's why i called you in for oh i didn't hear you call me cranks at dartington is going, they're going to keep it open while they try and find a buyer for it oh er, mm the cranks who have got six other outlets, erm have gone into, what do they call it, miners, administrative liquidation oh yes, mm, mm erm apparently have expanded somebody vastly into the wholesale business and erm, so oh well i was saying to jean this morning, cos it's funny enough we went out to dartington yesterday and we were sort of looking at the restaurant there at cranks, and i said to her you know about this bowl of soup and then the erm yeah talking about the prices of you know, lunch yeah and that was just a bowl of soup and a, a roll yeah , yeah good morning hi, alright? yes thanks a fifty and a thirty, eighty pence today for you my love that's right, yeah thank you, breezy this morning isn't it? it is breezy yes it's surprising how breezy it is twenty five lovely , okay thanks a lot thank you very much, thanks a lot thank you bye bye fifty for one, botham was out for eight oh dear, not again yeah bit of a shame innit? oh dear i was thinking he was going easy yeah he was gonna take over from gooch yes or whatever smith is now in, he hasn't scored yet, fifty for one off thirteen overs mm so providing they just play it steadily they should be alright, there's a lot of discrimination over the australian defeat in the paper, they reckon that if erm only no, no, go on what was it? they reckon that if erm australia lose another match it could mean that they won't even make the semi finals and erm they reckon like that, that channel nine that's supposed to be backing all this oh yeah, aha well they think they'll pull the plug on it oh yes and show re-runs of neighbours instead, now can you think can you imagine anything worse than that? oh dear, i thought that was funny yes cos there's been so much in australia, you know, i mean it was really a competition just to show that australia was gonna be champions again you know mm that and erm australia play india next then they play england, that'll be a match and a half i think should be, especially with this erm, this oh yes, yes do you want to take that? no i, well i'm gonna, yeah okay, but i mean she, well you're gonna be, you'll get up in a moment now won't you? er yes i'm gonna get up in a minute anyway, so right, mm oh fancy botham being out, i was hoping that, you know he was going easy yes, i was erm letting gooch score perhaps he was going too easily you see, not playing his natural game, i mean it's, you never know do you? well perhaps it needn't where he just had plenty of porridge yeah, yes now i should be should prefer cutting my hair, i'm not gonna have it cut quite so short this time i think right you know just have a little bit off it yeah taken off it, cos i was looking at the length of it when we were in france mm, mm and i think that looked a nicer length yeah , mm, now do you want to come up the town? because i shall be going up the town yes after lucy about, er yes that was what i was getting around to, by that time of course i should be erm it'll be finished in half an hour, yes erm, so i would come up the town with you if i could think what for oh right it'll help, okay it had steve martin in it, it's a comedy yeah it's called father of the bride and it's about this wedding kind of thing oh, er, i, i have to plead my ignorance i don't even know who steve martin is. well how can we help today? i finished this book did you? yeah good so let's see what you did, who did you go to the pictures with? oh my friend emma emma? so where did you go from here? yeah, where it starts in the pen where it starts in the pen mm what was it? right right, so let us see what we can do shall we? erm where do we start? i need a there yeah, yeah e two, now you've got to work out the average speed, right try and think roughly what the answer would be, because if you thought of that, then you would know that's a silly answer, cos look, how far is the journey? a hundred and twenty miles right, well say, a nice, you know just to the nearest, to the nearest erm whole number a hundred right and twenty seven miles a hundred and twenty seven, what's that to the nearest hour? two hours right, so if it goes say a hundred and twenty six miles or a hundred and twenty miles, to the nearest ten miles, it goes a hundred and twenty miles in two hours how far would it go in one hour? sixty right, sixty so that can't be right can it? right, so how are you gonna find the average speed, what do you do to find that average speed? you divide what by what? divide that by that right, but, what are you gonna divide that by on a calculator? two point twelve no, this is the whole thing isn't it? don't you remember look if there were a hundred minutes in an hour that would be two point one two, but there's not a hundred minutes in an hour are there? how many minutes are there in an hour? sixty right, now look, it says there, so what's twelve minutes? nought point two right, so what are you gonna divide that by to get the average speed? twelve point two no nought point what's the time? erm two hours and twelve minutes right, how do you write that as a decimal of an hour? what's two hours, twelve minutes? look you've got two hours and you've got twelve minutes, now what fraction of an hour is twelve minutes? erm five no, what, twelve minutes is what fraction of an hour? oh, nought point two right, so that equals the minutes is point two, how many hours? two so two hours, twelve minutes is two point two two hours yeah right, so to find the average speed what you gonna do? two hours divided by right, but and what that by that divide by that divide, come on say again that that by, by what? two point two right fifty eight that's right right, well what about the next one? doesn't say well how many minutes is it? nought point nine five nought point nine five where does fifty eight come? there does it? no right, there, so what are you gonna divide it by? mm that's nought point eight, nought point nine, nought point nine five, nought point nine six six and that's half way to it so that's nought point nine, six, five five look, nought point nine, six, five and so you're gonna divide five you're gonna divide fifty point five by fifty two right right now d well that one point two that's right forty two right right, now, the next one er how you gonna take it out of it? three at, thirty nine thirty nine so what is it? two hours, thirty nine minutes right, two hours, thirty nine, right two point six, five right seventy two right i've got erm, how many hours and all this written down at home if you want me to bring that up erm write all the hours down yes you can do it's just afternoon, what time is noon? twelve o'clock so that is just eighteen minutes after noon, so how long is it from nine, ten in the morning until, until eighteen minutes past twelve o'clock in midday? so how long is it three hours and right so switzerland is three hours and eight minutes isn't it? yeah and you had two hours, fifty two minutes, right, so which is the next one, this one? now that's five, ten p m to eleven thirty eight p m, well what's five ten, to eleven ten? erm six hours six hours and eighteen minutes and eighteen minutes, er wait a moment six hours and what? ten, thirty eight and twenty eight right, so that is six hours and twenty eight minutes isn't it? yeah right, now what's the next one? two fourteen to ten twenty, er this again is easier because what would be two fourteen to ten fourteen? erm eight eight hours, so fourteen to twenty would be how many? sixteen right, so it's eight hours six minutes now the next one erm two fifty to ten twenty nine, well, come back to the same sort of time, the hour just before that, say two fifty to nine fifty, what would two fifty to nine fifty be? erm seven hours right, now you've got to go from fifty to twenty nine erm so fifty to an hour would be thirty nine right thirty nine minutes, so it's seven, eight hours no seven hours isn't it? seven hours two to nine, seven hours and thirty nine minutes isn't it? got thirty nine right, now this next one ten a m to two thirty seven p m, well what's ten o'clock? four hours four hours and? fifty seven right and i think the next one you got right, because you worked it out alright, cos it's seven days, which is how many hours? five, three, erm seven times twenty four that's right, which is? erm a hundred times twenty four well it's a hundred and sixty eight, seven times twenty four, but then you've got five hours to add onto it which makes it a hundred and seventy three, right, so now work out your average speeds. okay but i got some right, i got the actual question wrong on that one, just i, shall i do that one? have you got the second one, didn't you get the second one, oh you got that one wrong? yes right, so yes, do that one this is what this is dublin to cork? erm one hundred and ten, no one hundred and twenty dublin to cork, it's two hundred and sixty six oh i've done the wrong one a hundred and six, i've got that and you've marked it wrong what did you divide by? that what? two point five, eight what's two point five hours? erm a hundred and well what's point five of an hour? six what, what fraction is point five? point five something, what fraction is that? point five? yeah point five half right, what's half an hour? thirty nine right, so two point five is two hours, thirty minutes, but it's not two hours, thirty minutes, it's two hours fifty minutes right, so what have you got to do? you've got to change the minutes to a decimal oh haven't you? eight, eight point eight, three right what did i say, point eight three? ninety four right erm right, now what's the next one? erm switzerland switzerland, right eight there, nought, point, one, three right did i say nought, point, eight, three? no nought, point, one, three right nought, point, one, three but you're not gonna divide by nought, point, one, three are you? no ninety one right now what i shall do before you go any further is divide that at the side here, what those and minutes are as decimals of an hour nought point four, seven, nought point four, seven what was it erm six hours twenty eight minutes was it? yes six point nought, what did i say? yeah six point three, seven no, four, seven isn't it? yeah right nought point one six, five nought, point, four, two no, how long is it? twenty seven is it twenty seven? yes which one we dealing with? britain right, no it's not, look, it's ten o'clock to two thirty seven, what's that? how many minutes? thirty seven right, so it's four hours, thirty seven minutes isn't it? we want thirty seven nought point six, two right ninety eight right eighty six eighty, you're not far out, but it's just erm madrid to barcelona six, eight, seven erm, eight six right just don't do it again six is this the seven hours, thirty nine minutes? yeah, six, eight, seven seven hours seven thirty nine minutes twenty six five five, no i do it the wrong way right, start again, eight hundred and, no it were doing i'm doing spain, that's what i'm doing anyway, oh i've got that one right right, so west germany one hundred and six right one, three, seven right right, what you didn't do almost all the time was to change those minutes to decimals of an hour wasn't it? so you must remember that whenever you're dealing with speed or anything to do with hours and minutes you've got to change your minutes to the decimals of an hour before you can use your calculator. okay. now, just let's have a little help here, because you won't have this graph with you all the time will you? no right, so, how can you find out what forty minutes is? divide it by ten no, what decimal fraction of an hour is forty minutes? how can you find out, you can use your calculator quarter, three quarters no, what's, what's a quarter of an hour? quarter of an hour, twenty minutes, fours into sixty, fifteen right, so three quarters of an hour is? forty five forty five minutes if you've got forty five minutes, what's, what's the fraction of an hour? over sixty right, it's forty five over sixty, you want to change that into a decimal, what do you do? erm divide into no, how do you change any fraction into a decimal, now this is something you must divide it by ten no, no, no, no you've got fractions here look, erm now how do you change all those fractions into decimal fractions, what do you do? nought point five but how did you do it? you knew that, but how do you do it? erm how do you do it on a calculator? what does that really mean one over two, how else could you write one over two? how else could you write it? two over four yes, but i don't mean that, erm, could you, would you write it as one plus two or one minus two or one multiplied by two or one divided by two one multiplied one multiplied by two? two ones are two? does a half equal two? so what does that, you know this, which of those four rules do you do for that? one what's one plus two? three what's one minus two? nothing, minus one, minus two? one, no, nothing one, minus two minus two minus, one, come down two, come down one you get to nought, come down another one minus two so one minus one, one minus two is? minus one is minus one, what's one times two? er two what's one divided by two? one if you've got one apple and you divide it half right, one divided by two is a half, so which of those answers is that one? right, so what does one, how else can you write one over two? erm one divide one divided by two, right, remember that, so how can i write that? forty five divided by six by? sixty right, do that on your calculator nought point seven five right, so that equals nought point seven five, what's a half? do it on the calculator nought point five right what's three quarters divided er as a decimal? nought point five nought point eight, seven, five right, so how do you change a fraction into a decimal? you divide it by the bottom you divide the top number by the bottom number, so, supposing you've got fifty seven minutes and you want to change that into a decimal of an hour, what fraction of an hour is it? what's fifty seven minutes as a deci as a fraction of an hour? that's forty five minutes fifty seven over sixty right, so how do you change that into a decimal? nought, point, nine, five right, nought, point, nine, five, so now you can see how easily you can change your minutes into a decimal at any time, right, now, let's look at some of these, this is four hours and thirty thirty seven minutes, so it's four hours, four hours and thirty seven minutes, so what fraction is that of an hour? erm thirty seven minutes? forty thirty seven minutes? over sixty right thirty seven over sixty, what's thirty seven over sixty? cos the ans that is four and thirty seven sixtieths mm so what's thirty seven sixtieths as a decimal? nought point six right, so what's four hours, thirty seven minutes? four point six point six o well six one to the nearest two decimal places what's that gonna be? nought, point, six nought, point, six one to do decimal places? oh, two right, because that's bigger than five isn't it? yes so it's nought, point, six, two, so for our thirty seven minutes it's, four point six, two, there we are look, but the thing is you can now do it without having to look at a scale mm right? mm so do this one what is this? four eight hours and four minutes four, six so, so what's that gonna be, eight hours and four minutes? nought point nought it's, it's eight hours yes so it's gonna be eight not nought isn't it? mm it's gonna be eight point nought one nought what? one nought one, what's that? mm, erm nought nought, six, six, so it's gonna be to two decimal places it's gonna be nought point nought seven right, so it's gonna be eight point nought seven eighty point, nought, seven right yeah so you now know how you can change your minutes to decimals to decimals right, now you may have to do that on this next one tired i can see that oh my brother does motor racing i know he does have you heard from your brother? yeah how is he? he's okay, he says the resorts are very good does he and the snow good? yeah and has he been up to the top of the i don't know i wasn't there when mummy oh i see so what's today thursday, he's only got today and tomorrow left hasn't he for skiing that's silverstone that's right yes i know where that is do you? yes have you been there? no, my brother has has he? he might have i don't, he probably has right so it shows a silverstone motor racing circuit yeah right, so what's the first circuit has five corners and ten kerbs, car start ha, car start near woodcape corner and go clockwise, which corner do they come from first? aha copse corner right copse corner what would you expect to find at copse corner? ten cops and what's a copse? i don't know that's what i wanted to find out you don't know what copse is? no a copse is a smallish group of trees is there lots of trees there? well there would be, yes, i would imagine or if they certainly would, they would of been in the past, they may have been cut down, but that would indicate to me that there were probably trees probably been cut down at that corner, a group of trees mm copse corner, copse er, is, is a name which we give to a small wood, a small group of trees is a copse, in india that can be called a shola, s h o l a mm and at one stage when i was walking in india we used to stay at bungalows and one was called marian shola and another was called pine shola, because it meant that it was a, it was a bungalow in a group of pine trees mm but copse is a small group of trees, right, so, the next one b which curve is just after beckett? chapel kerb chapel kerb wonder who's got a chapel there? i should think almost certainly there was a chapel at that point famous people go there oh they do indeed, yes mm, mm which corner is at the end of hammer street? stow corner that's right why is that called stow? i wouldn't know that one banker's got a nice track i hate to think what was in that corner too ugh oh dear, right look, i have a magic pencil you have a magic pencil it moves mm car going from woodcape to copse who to copse car will be travelling roughly from west to east or eastwards yes, now remember that, what that means, west to east is in fact going eastwards yes where would it be travelling roughly southwards? where am i going from woodcape southwards, that way which is southwards? down right, so where would the car be travelling in a southward direction? there right, so how would you describe that stretch, it's going from copse corner to right oh there we go right, so where would it be going, roughly going going northwards northwards going up so where would that be from? there there to? to woodcape corner right where are we? fourth of april no, come on. oh we know it. tuesday the seventh when, i've just got to write it in my book you see because i haven't gone that far ahead. ah ah what's thursday, the ninth isn't it? thursday is the ninth, yes. that's next week. that's the ninth of april ninth of april. that looks alright. okay? right. should try the again. don't worry though honestly, i know these things do happen. what time? quarter to ten. we've gone and got lumbered a bit waylaid. did you? well it happens doesn't it? i mean she went to do a lady's hair and then the lady said well if you, could you just sort of trim my husband's. husband's that was my whole morning gone, no it's not too bad actually. no well er i, i expect you've caught up a bit now haven't you? right. right. well thank you ever so much. thank you, it's nice to see you both again. oh, nice to see you. okay. look forward to seeing you again in six weeks time. lovely thanks okay then? bye bye. bye bye. well they're a hundred and forty six now. oh i hope hicks gets his fifty. he's got forty six now. he's got forty six? yeah. gooch was stumped. was he? yeah. oh well shall we have a cup of coffee before we go out? what? shall we have a cup of coffee before we go out? yes may as well might oh yes that's true, yes, i'll put the kettle on. said all i'm worried about is did i wash my hair too early for you so she said it's alright i've got a spray that i can sort of cos she likes it quite wet when she yeah. it's thirty eight overs so i mean they've got another twelve overs yet. to get about twenty runs. ten runs oh no less than that, ten runs now. ten? well twelve i think, hundred and forty six they've got now. oh that would be twelve then. they're just obviously between overs at the moment, it's just finished an over and they've got the bowler up. hundred and fifty, dick hicks got his fifty. oh good. fairbrother's doing, you know, he's holding up the other yeah. side obviously. was lucy sort of late with you? or did she have to go back for something. she had to go back for something. i, cos i saw her at a quarter past nine so no no she'd erm she'd been in, hundred and fifty three, hick again. hundred and fifty three, so he only wants five? yeah. oh well let him hit the the winning thing. well he won't be er he, he won't, he won't have strike now, fairbrother will have strike. cos he's obviously just got a three. unless they've changed ends. thirty eight overs, yes, as you say they've got another twelve overs. hundred and fifty four oh he's got one yes. so he had four cos he got one then didn't he? mm. oh well the jubilation hundred and fifty six. so only wants two and he's got fifty six look you see mm. he's doing the scoring. well i expect they like him doing it. fifty four, it's changed, hick's not out fifty four it was fifty six a minute ago wasn't it? yes it was, fairbrother's got the nine you see, look. yeah well he's still got nine. yeah but he had seven. oh i thought it was nine he had. no. so they only want two. six six four oh no no not quite, no . something's come up which shouldn't have done. well switch it off and bring it up again and see if it changes. oh it will change again as soon as it goes round to the, to the three four one again er y you don't see it changing it but oh i know, every time it flicks yeah mm it's changing. you see it, i mean i pointed that out, like now. for four wickets, oh hick caught and bowled! oh dear. oh. probably trying to, probably trying to hit a six out of the ground should think probably that was probably what that erm yeah. was about probably caught and bowled he was probably was sort of erm just trying to hit a six. trying to hit, you know, get it finished. that's right. yes erm she didn't come till after ten and i was beginning yeah to wonder whether i'd got the right time. have we got a p is there a piece of cake left? sorry? is there a piece of cake left? what did you say? i said is there a p no it's alright, a biscuit will do fine. i just said was there a piece of cake left. oh there is ca oh of course i have got cakes in the . oh gosh, help me, help me, help me. good, not out bowling again. presumably you took those chicken things downstairs for me yesterday? presumably i did. you know the yes i think i did, yeah. the what? oh yes i put them in the freezer, yes, yes. i was trying to think of rubbish that i'd taken out. do you want a bit of cake? i, i'd just taken this thing you're not gonna have a piece of this? oh you can have, you can finish that up if you want to. thanks. oh they're taking a long time to get these last two runs aren't they? mm. look. oh gracious. fairbrother got a four look. oh yes. well we've eleven overs to spare, i mean that's erm england's maintaining their britain and the west indies in one day games six wicket victory, the west indies batting self destructed after the loss of two early wickets and only at fifty four and scores. they were all out for just a hundred and fifty seven and the outcome was never in doubt after graham gooch and ian botham an opening stand of fifty in reply. gooch made sixty five, graham hicks boost boosted his confidence with his second international fifty and england reached their target with ten overs to spare . well i think they w they were something on three four two i think. now that was ma that will be in the score card of course, three four two. oh this is it look. england bowling west indies course for their second cup victory on their back caught by snaring in his opening of course caught botham bowled botham he's doing alright. mm. oh how did it go? it went er on its own accord er now what number were we on? three four two. so i'll go to three four three because i think there's something else on, someone else result. details. was there last night? oh no that was the night before picked up their first points with a fifty three one o w win over zimbabwe oh is that ? pakistan oh i see, he, he was the opener. he was docked four times on his way to reaching his first one day century. oh, so pakistan beat zimbabwe. oh it was pakistan was it? mm. now what was that about food and drink you wanted to see? no i was, i just saw food and drink oh. but i think i saw it, didn't i, the night before last was it? yes i think you did didn't you? they haven't got news yet of the erm cricket win i don't suppose? no. well it won't be on the national news i don't suppose cos it comes under sports oh it'll be on the national news because thing mm they reporting it. well i've got one of france but i'm not sure what scale it is. i don't th you see if we had seen that one that would be very ideal for richard. yes it would. erm erm doesn't it tell you? now you see this is three inches to the mile and this is this is one to no that's not one to a million, that's ridiculous that is. erm have to work it out all the time, this is erm this is one to two hundred and fifty thousand. erm this is three miles to one inch, that one isn't it? yes this one is, look this one is erm that's ten kilometres is eight miles isn't it? yes mhm. so that's eight miles, that's, so that's, this is about four miles to the inch, this one i should think. so it's not bad you see, so i mean i've got that one of france which is yes so that's okay. more or less the s so the other one is i don't remember what it is i wanted but i think i'll go in to erm and erm well i've got to go to the building society and i've got to go to the bank. the bank. erm i'll go down and get the car out. it's really quite warm now out sort of out of the wind. yes well i think that the erm i mean the sun is a surprise. yeah. yeah that tub of daffs is really erm looking good isn't it? mm they look as if they're all planted near the top you know yeah. as if you put a whole heap of as you say th the t the two of them yeah. in the wheelbarrow yeah, both out, yeah sort of so we just wanna go and park somewhere don't we really? well really it's about it i'll have to see if there's a carrier i think there is one in the box, yes. if we put one back in again. i haven't got as much room in this one to put the bag. have you not? no. gosh mm oh the moor is visible again. yeah. oh well perhaps the fog and erm got a appointment on the saturday hasn't she? has she? for hair hair yeah. and erm well perhaps young bob and jess can go on the moor on saturday. yes if it, i mean if it were like today it will be lovely. yeah. yes well i hope we get the opportunity. yeah. gosh that car looks a bit rusty doesn't it? that's a fiat of course you see. oh yes, yeah it's like richard's old car, you remember that, fiat? fiat one two seven like that one is. yeah that's right. oh no he's coming off on, off the lorry so that's no good. well it would be a bit tight to get in i feel. there's nowhere up there is there? no she's just got in it's very difficult to get in yeah. well we will just hope for the best, he's not going up there so that's one less. wondered if yes i did too. oh look, we've just got one there. oh yes. great. oh look it's one of these that's nice because you can just sort of nothing can come in behind you and that sort of thing. mind the disabled person just coming past you here, that's it. good, right, so i will do what i've got to do, you will do what you've got to do this is all mucky at the back, what happened to it? you got a bag there? oh. oh that will be alright yes. very strong. well it's probably stronger than that one, still. mm, that's the one, no, leave that one. erm this one will be alright. stay here now. wasn't there anyway. i thought it was sort of a er you know, by the so i was wrong yes. cos the other thing i was gonna do was to go into lloyds, i must do that some time about this interest on that account cos i reckon it's very low oh yes. and i still haven't, i keep on forgetting that. you keep on forgetting to bring out the book. yeah. yes. oh well that was lucky cos there haven't been any more another space, no, that's right. anyway you just go where you've got to go yes. the bank and the building society and then i'll go down to devon travel to pick up that er right. so i'll see you back at the car. right. i've got a funny hat on, ah that's fair enough isn't it? some people like it. it keeps that's right. it needs to. funny hat good morning tony, erm, you said come in now nothing else has come. nothing else has come. now you've got the vouchers, did i give you the vouchers? no. i didn't, right. this lady's from new zealand oh and i said er yeah? i've got a cousin yeah? she said where?what's their name?they knew no, yeah, incredible isn't it? from one, the very south of new zealand incredible isn't it? i meet people i was in adelaide once with m ten ten, can can? oh well i suppose, yes it, you know, it might be, don't know how but it might be ten down thus it's safe to take it in now i, let me just try and get this one. what is it's barely credible . now which one do i well shove roughly pushed pushing? i've not got a p in the anagram so i don't think it can start with well it do isn't necessarily an anagram is it? ah yeah i mean, oh i see what you mean, there, mm. no. right. shove roughly . mm that's right. step on newsman as tyre is . i had treaded in but you can't have treaded, still, oh a tyre is treaded isn't it? step on newsman as tyre is treaded? well why treaded? i mean cos i apart from step, tread yeah, yeah. and, i mean why newsman? eded, editor, e d. mm. see what i mean? yeah. i mean i oh tread t r e a d and four down would finish with d firstly doctor or surgeon every day gave treatment doctor firstly erm we think that must finish with an e d did w did we? cos that was that one ah yes. step on newsman tread, t r e a d so if that's a t then that's gonna be to to it's barely credible hard to hard to, can you get out of that? h a r d, hard and to and then it starts with an i h a r d i haven't got t, oh yes you have, you've got two, you've got th two i's g and an i ah yes, gin two i's? oh i have i've got yeah because look er er gin i dream and you've got an i in gin and you've got the i you, you think it's hard to hard to, and it's going to be what have you got left then? well you've got a see look the last one will start with i won't it? you've got a g and n and m and i and e and an a er to follow that i. hard to imagine. yes. i wouldn't have thought that was easy to do? i know, you should see her hair. gracious me. hard to imagine, right. so twelve over gets ready for more fire relax relight, no one across shoved roughly got the money illicitly oh yes that one. hassled? mm got the money illicitly? i mean h a s s l e d hassled erm haggle? no,well suppose you have three down hero worshipper, list old boy well supposing it's hassled, h a s s l so this old boy would be l, don't think, one two three four five seven hero worshipper do you know that one,the music about a bird ? air air? oh, well air is about a bird i suppose but not what i had in mind. no i wouldn't have that in mind really. fifteen over, where is it well what is five down? well five down is bad ideas, question mark, a very, exclamation mark do you think, no which we haven't got. bad ideas d d e m u s i l m glowing players in court d e m u s oh so that would be s blank e blank s? glowing players in court, is that what you said? glowing players in court. no idea got the money illicitly seeds? oh yes! very good. very good. so you think that's delusion? well d e l u fifteen over would finish the music oh yes. why? i'm just trying to work out e m u oh yes. fury at a fury at a bad deed outrage so twenty five over after one two poles drink here must be inn of course. i one, n n, two poles. so four down firstly doctor or surgeon every day gave treatment so it's either gonna be m d or d r isn't it? if that's the doctor every day gave treatment well we're not having this forty four down get one off the point of advance line well, we're not having this oh yeah illness? the cool rips open the side,coo rips open the side cool rips open the side coo rips mm so it must be cool and rips well it can't be it hasn't got two e's look. oh. oh no that's thirty five always set out in nepal in nepal. always set out in nepal, it must there's two e's. ever everest everest in nepal. ever e s t yes everest. so twenty seven down hard sailors fear it hard sailors fear it hard hard sailors sailors fear it in the main that one yeah. i mean i reckon that must i there cos whatever that is with a g at the end possible, could be i n g couldn't it? iceberg. what is that one there?the -ing. twenty six going easy ambling? could well be. right, forty over provided the outcome provided what's thirty six down? i'd i'd set off watery moves it must be i'd set i'd? yeah, very good. thirty six so that must be g e d mustn't it? provided the outcome, yes provided the outcome. and forty down, did we try that? well forty down is proclaim point noun on english church it's a steeple, what do you call those very proclaim proclaim a point. i thought of weather vane but of course it doesn't fit in so that's out. the point on an english church, well nou no it's a noun on an english church, yeah it is. provided the outcome supposing that a point i suppose is erm well it's north or south. yeah. or east or west. oh right well what's thirty over? same again ditto i should think. so nineteen down? it's boring dancing outside it's boring well that'll be an o blank s well i think that's s, i mean i think that's encores, i mean er calls for repeat performances? well i should think so, yes. calls so, well anyway the eighteen over is art with brie can produce a dish a dish well that's this one here look, erm, where have i got it? i've got it down somewhere here, r blank, here it is look brie it's r blank r and you've got a r e t b r blank rarebit rarebit good i thought the chef might get that one. rarebit so nineteen er down again is nineteen down we have the t, it's boring dancing outside. it's boring it's boring it's boring dancing outside. b o u s won't it i should think well i was i, i just said tiptoes. oh tiptoes, it's boring well twenty four over no it probably isn't that but what, what is twenty four over? material flower in scotland in scotland. material tweed? don't see what it's got to do with a flower yes weed yeah. material flower e d so i mean i don't know but tedious t e d i o u s well i mean why would that be? i mean it's boring dancing outside t e d d i o u s yes yeah i don't see why the dancing outside. well this is, this is what i'm wondering, unless it's something from say tedious it's boring and think of necessarily boring being tedious outside yes look o u t s i d e side oh yes. so it was an anagram really. yeah. so that's another u. and what is it again? a social group with plenty of bread plenty of bread crust upper crust oh very good i like it. yes, upper crust. oh dear so we've got the two we've got the two u's and we've got the c and the i, yes. upper crust. oh dear, right . twenty four over well if that's gonna be an e, that, that ten down is thus it's safe to take it in thus it's safe eatable? thus well if you say what's so actually there is no such word as eatable come to think of it, it's edible. edible. yes it is isn't it? that won't do, no,jack's pitch tar er so, right, so that's not wrong so what have we got there then? well it doesn't matter really. no. it's e blank t blank b blank e blank e and what is it? oh his studio look oh dear, thus it's safe to take it in it's safe to take it in? mhm. well i should think it will be a meal alright. well well i suppose we could do the card couldn't we? i've got two letters to post anyway for jeremy. oh you haven't got that sorted out? yes erm yeah i mean erm i, i've transferred a a hundred and fifty pounds to him. so if he phones up i can say, you know it's on its way as it were. so who's this is it? and it's ? yes,oh you've just put, well i always put well they don't put it there do they? yeah erm right, i'll put the stamp on it and go and post i hate these as it were things you know? mm one lagging behind advertising screen show so that's where forty nine over trailer do you think that could be stew pot? wet post cut up for the cook and it's an anagram of wet post? yes, stew pot. now you d you went and interrupted me there and, and i've forgotten what i was saying which was right. trailer for forty nine over. is sure determined to get in first you get a trailer, you know mm so now and this is this one much like while i was taking time off oh oh, what have you done? hello steve. ooh it isn't very often you wear oh mummy, i've finished alright darling i'll t here you are let it came off on the playing field and so there was no way i could find the little screw. oh it's okay. why not? is it alright? shall i leave it? oh thanks ever so much steve, that's great. fine, i'll do that if you you're standing up, i mean that's not good for you standing up eating a meal you know. oh he he's spent most of his life doing that terry i'm quite used to it now. what? he spends most of his life doing that. there, alright then love? lovely thank you very much indeed. pop them back in to you i'll drop them in later no i've got my other pair that i wear, you know bye bye terry drop it back terry. right. bye. you've heard from gavin i hear? well yes, we did, we rang on tuesday, we had a bit of a trouble getting through, i think we rung about seven times before we got through but er he, well, well he didn't say anything to me, everything i asked him he said yes to, but steve he said the skiing was good, it was yeah he said it's fantastic skiing, he mind the he said it was lovely and hot at the top don't do it there love in case it comes up. but he was in the middle of a restaurant he said and i can't, think he felt a bit awkward speaking yeah didn't say too much, you know. well he told me off because he was out on the erm bank sledging, outside the hotel so i called him in. that didn't sound very nice but he sa he, he weren't homesick, he, i think it must be a nice place mm he said er he normally gets homesick but he hasn't, you know? yeah he's growing up isn't he? yeah bye cheers terry bye bye oh they've heard from gav well she phoned gavin yesterday apparently and he seems to be having a whale of a time. good. he's not homesick. not really. so how did you go, have you got some more? well i just got this patterned. patterned? oh yes very good. i'm trying to work out this fifty over here a whisky with bread ? rye. oh very good. yes very good. well i hadn't got down to the r yet i hadn't reached with my alphabet. forty eight down held in high esteem held in high esteem held in high esteem what's the nelson touch? you turn a blind eye isn't it? yes, where's that? erm there, fifty the nelson touch important if you fight like this what's forty eight down again, what was it? held in high esteem. i'm just wondering whether it's e d or e s, to fight like this. that fifty seven is seep strangely and quietly in, quietly inside for furtive glimpses now it's quietly p isn't it? so seeps strangely peeps peeps where do you get the other p from there? quietly inside. oh the p yes, true. so that's a p, which this moist toilet tissue. oh very nice. you can have a drawer load of that cos we've got tons of it left. another one? er five. number five erm a mug. alright . alright, you're gonna come back on tomorrow? yeah. well i'll talk to you again tomorrow. alright then. tarrah. bye. bye bye, off to control the small child now. if you want to come on loot at lunchtime tomorrow erm five to one, ten to oneish, listen in then just after the action line bulletin and you can come on tomorrow perhaps and take on sue from chesterfield. er to come before two o'clock we've got part three of the strange things that people do around nottinghamshire to pass the time. and today we talk to the nottinghamshire based place name society. get all excited about new road signs and things. they're on before two. this is er bryan adams new song this is called please forgive me. on the trains everything's okay, there's a late flight at the airport, flight l o g nine seven three from guernsey, now coming in at five past two, so if you're rushing to meet that, there's no need cos it's not in for another twenty minutes, flight l o g nine seven three from guernsey now due in at five past two. on the motorways, motorway police say there's no problems there now, the earlier accident by junction twenty six is cleared so no problems northbound any more. on the a six o nine road at woollaton there's resurfacing there between drive and drive. on the a one, delays on the southbound carriageway three miles east of worksop at the appley head roundabout, five lane ends on the a one, there's roadworks there with a contraflow and diversions for wide vehicles, so there are delays there if you're heading that way. er work continuing in newark town centre with the closure of part of castlegate in the beesmarket hill area of the town, diversions there mean that delays are likely too. road in toten, that's the a six double o five has got roadworks at the junction of lane, some delays in busy periods and the a fifty two, there's roadworks on the northbound carriageway at clifton bridge, there are diversions there for a fifty two traffic heading for drive as well, sort of weave your way in and out of all the cones that are up there, the the cone monster's been in the night. we'll update the traffic for you throughout the afternoon and the full service at teatime, john on from half past four until seven o'clock later on. f m one o three point eight and ninety five point five, it's radio nottingham, nottinghamshire's favourite station. with the weather forecast for today to st annes and teresa, off you go. an thank you. dry weather should spread this afternoon from the west. it should stay dry overnight with fog and frost by morning. sunny spells for tomorrow but still a chance with showers. outlook for friday, frost at first with sunny spells. thank you very much. thank you. th was marvellous. give us a ring soon. i will do geoff. tarrah. bye. bye bye teresa from st annes. er loot at lunchtime tomorrow ten to one quarter to oneish just after action line, give you the qualifying question then. er dennis this afternoon has got adam faith on on afternoon special. do ya remember him in er in budgie? he's er a financial whiz kid now isn't he as well adam faith so talking to dennis this afternoon on afternoon special. john at teatime is talking to veteran d j paul about the best records of all time and musician edward who's playing at the old vic tonight, he's on as well. seven o'clock tonight it's er radio nottingham sport and it's colin on tonight, and er john from ten until midnight with a behind the scenes look at this is your life with roy and john's talking to geoff as well who's er a painter of reproductions of art history. cor,ten till midnight with john . it's become a nottinghamshire's favourite now. a bit of a a super wasn't it? marie osmond before that and paper roses it's radio nottingham eight minutes to two now, kids' county for today, these'll be the clues for it. where do we need here? it's it's very busy every day. there's shops there. there's free cafeterias. we know it's not the queen's medical centre, the victoria centre or street, people come in and out. there's a clock. and it's not street or the four seasons' centre either. trudy's on from calverton. hello. hello. hello, how are you? i'm fine, fine . well good. at last somebody who's on without a face as long as a fiddle. well thank goodness for that . i was just falling asleep actually listening to the music, it was you know you just listen to the radio . what those two seventies one , marie osmond yes i paper roses, was that number one? i don't know . no , number two, number two in november nineteen seventy three . i'm not gonna tell you cos i'll be showing my age then . well that was twenty years ago that was . and then er the mud one was nineteen seventy five. yeah i remember that. can you? yeah. can you remember them on top of the pops and that dance where they used to sort out walk round in circles but not yeah. do you remember it? actually i've been watching erm i go i've got sky television and the top of the pops is on there you see the old ones? god feel old. i've watched those as well you think that? i know and james ke my little boy keeps saying,what was it like in the olden days ? does he? and what's he mean what about nineteen eighty? yeah. he says it's like that. did they have cars in your day ? no. no we just had jimmy savile didn't we? yeah olden days seem so old and ancient though don't they on there? yeah and do and don't they all seem thin? pan's people as well don't they yeah pan's people it's all videos nowadays int it? well it is these days. all these video satellites and they call it and they call it progress. yeah. and erm on some of those er there was a whole spate of songs that were really naff dancers weren't there as well? yeah. i was watching w top of the pops the other night and it had a song on called do the buster. oh i can't can you remember th that was reall that's was god awful that was . i don't i i don't catch it every night, it's on for an hour isn't it? is it? yeah. i don't catch it every night. and there were all those awful ones like do the bump. do the bump? do you remember that? yeah. and erm another funny one. you're making me feel old. erm hang on, i've thought of another one that was on the other night, do the footsie. footsie? oh i don't remember that one. all those awful old things. oh i don't remember that one. i rem i used to like top of the pops as a kid, we always used to settle down in front of the t v yeah a before we went to bed yeah. an and did you used to tape it with your cassette machine? ooh i can't remember that. with a little microphone held up to the telly? ooh yeah i've done that. did ya. i did. and you'd listen to your tapes back and er w in the middle of it you'd always hear yourself going shh yeah to people or quiet be quiet shh shh well there was five of us round shh the telly so you can imagine when it was like bedlam at our house. i'm recording shh. kids' county, where do we need? oh i'm a bit baffled now. are ya ? i am yeah, i am actually i'm baffled. where do you think then? erm well is there a lot of erm i w i want a clue now. go on then. is is there some transport going off round there? some what? travels through? transport. some transport. mm. yeah. t=int the victoria bus station? no it's not. broadmarsh? no. mm. tarrah. bye then. bye bye. ada's on from radford. hello ada. hello geoff. how are you? very well thank you. marvellous how's your teeth? pardon? how's your teeth? very well the same as i am. good, i'm just checking you see, making sure there all there are they, all present and correct? they are yeah. great. kids' county, where do i need ada? is it the nottingham evening post? no. ooh god. no. never mind, tarrah. tarrah. bye bye. alison from bradmore, hello. hello. where do think i need? pardon? where do i need? er sorry what was that? where do i need for kids' county, what you rang up for? oh right well i think it's nottingham train station. yes it is. thank goodness for that. oh wonderful. yes it is, it's the er it's the train station. yes oh great. you're a radio virgin aren't you, you've not been on before? that's right yes it's the first time ever so it's quite an experience. well are yo is it going alright for you so far do you think? oh well no not too bad. well you've won. i mean tell me what you do with yourself alison. erm well erm i i normally work four days a week but i'm not working today because we're having about twenty people around for a buffet supper tonight so i'm very busy cooking. oh are ya? yes, very very bradmore. very oh well very bradmore thing is to have a buffet supper. oh no . who are who are all these people then that you've got coming round, trekking around the place? erm well they're colleagues of mine, i work at the so these are colleagues of mine who are coming around oh i see. t it's about twenty of them so i'm quite looking forward to it. an and what do you do then at the ? erm i worked in the medical faculty but i actually left there yesterday and i'm starting a new post in er ophthalmology on monday so are you well congratulations. thank you very much. and er you've won the kids' county for today, you've got loads of stuff, so er you hang on the line and we'll lob it all off to you. oh thank you very much geoff . and also we'll give you an i lost it at lunchtime ex radio virgin certificate as well. oh brilliant, thank and you very much indeed that's great. and you'll be pleased to know that because we've waffled on for so much we'll have to save the county's peculiar pastimes until tomorrow, because i've i've not got time now,been gabbing on for so much. tarrah. sorry about that, right geoff bye . that's alright i'll blame you, bye. bye, bye. tarrah. radio nottingham news with andy . kent police say at least ten people have been killed and a further two are believed to have died in a coach crash on the m two near the faversham turn-off. the coach carrying forty four american tourists on a day trip to canterbury collided with a van and plunged down an embankment. dozens of other people were injured. from the scene, martin reports. the stricken coach now stands on the hard shoulder of the m two having been lifted up the embankment by a heavy crane. when the vehicle was righted the full horror of this accident became clear. rescuers found ten bodies. at the height of the rescue operation up to forty five firemen equipped with heavy lifting gear battled to free the injured. those that survived the crash were ferried to the kent and canterbury hospital in a fleet of ambulances. police accident investigators are at the scene trying to piece together why a day trip to canterbury and leeds castle near maidstone for a group of american tourists ended in tragedy. the m two motorway remains closed between junctions five and six and is not expected to reopen for several hours. eye witness richard was driving behind the coach when the accident happened. he describes the scene. you see the coach come to a standstill and then all the people screaming and trying to get out so i pulled over and just sort of done my best to get 'em out. and what were you able to do? well not a lot really,like just getting people up on the bank for the ambulances to pick 'em up from the motorway. police have issued an emergency telephone number for relat for relatives seeking information about the accident, it's , that's . there's been another jobs blow in nottinghamshire with the news that staythorpe power station is to close with the loss of 124 posts. it follows 's decision to replace the coal-fired station near newark with a gas one. the sherwood mp says thousands more generating jobs will be lost in the next five years. nigel reports. say the increase in gas-fired power stations means traditional coal ones are becoming surplus to requirements. production will stop at staythorpe at the end of march next year. say they're not worried by the decision. coal from welbeck is used at staythorpe but the coal board say its closure has already been taken into account. paddy the sherwood mp is less optimistic. he predicts more job losses which will hit the coal industry hard. there are twenty six er coal-fired power stations now, i believe they'll be down to ten within the next three years, and i think in the electricity generating industry another ten thousand jobs could go. he's also sceptical about the construction of a gas-fired power station at staythorpe. he says the government might have given approval but questions whether are committed to bringing a new nottinghamshire power station on stream. and 's dismissed a speculation claims that it wants to increase redundancy payments to miners at calverton pit by seven thousand pounds. there are claims that it's an attempt to change miners' minds about a decision last week to fight to save their pit. the governor of hong kong, chris patten, has met a cabinet committee to discuss the future of the colony. afterwards, the foreign secretary, douglas hurd, said britain would propose that talks moved into a more intensive phase to resolve outstanding issues. he said weeks rather than months were left to ensure greater democracy was established. there's still no sign of the rampton special hospital patient who went missing while on a shopping trip in sheffield yesterday. hospital authorities are warning the public not to approach the man but they're refusing to say anything about his background. they say to do so would be a breach of health service rules of confidentiality. here's paula . forty two year old terence ran off while he was out shopping with another patient and two rampton staff members. rampton is overseen by the special hospital services authority. today they said mr had been a patient there since nineteen eighty nine but refused to reveal more about his background. they said it would breach n h s codes of confidentiality but that they would review this decision if mr was still missing later today. they're warning the public not to approach him. he's five foot ten, of medium build and has short dark brown receding hair. he was wearing horn rimmed glasses and a white three quarter length anorak. shares in had to be suspended on the paris stock exchange collapsing after the company announced a massive loss. the leisure park lost around six hundred and fifteen million pounds in the year to september, that's around four million pounds a week. there have been complaints about the cost of holidays at . the weather, dry weather should slowly spread from the west this afternoon, maximum temperatures up to nine celsius, forty eight fahrenheit. tonight expected to be dry with mist and fog patches forming and a ground frost in many places, the minimum temperature is down to one degree celsius, thirty four fahrenheit. tomorrow, mostly dry and sunny. it's five past two now. this wednesday afternoon linking the east midlands, and it promises to be something of a rather special afternoon this afternoon special because we have a very special guest, the legendary adam faith who's appearing in alfie, not until next march at nottingham's theatre royal, but he's here to tell us all about the play and himself. adam faith. then we've got our funny man competition, now it's rather special because today we offer you a choice of one of four videos and they are all superb videos i promise you. and got a new feature film amongst those. on the hour the news and weather and we'd like to hear from you this afternoon. the number to ring it you'd like to have a chat on the air. you have to dial the code o six o two if you're outside the nottingham area. and our postal contestants aren't forgotten today because the new edition of the world of toy dogs is out, very popular magazine with our listeners and er postal contestant winners will get that. all happening, music as well, starting with abba. lies from abba. we need six more contestants for our competition. and there really are some beautiful videos to win this week. tell you about the videos now if you like. six more contestants we need, the only rule is that you mustn't have played a phone-in competition on this programme in the last four weeks. okay? now you listen out for these, for these videos, you can win a choice of these videos. there's seaplanes of the luftwaffe, which is a very exciting video actually that one, good-looking video that, seaplanes of the luftwaffe. and a new feature film, christopher timothy in james herriot's yorkshire, the film. how about that? james herriot's yorkshire, the film with christopher timothy. of all creatures great and small. and then there is er superb video, very funny video, john virgo, you know he d he does that er programme with erm jim davidson, the snooker programme. well john virgo's got a video out called playing for laughs, the trick shot master. the big break as featured on b b cs number one game show big break. so there you go, you can have the video john virgo's playing for laughs. and the brand new video that's just in the shops, i think today is the first day in the shops, called portrait of a city, nottingham nineteen ninety three. now i've done the narration for that and that video is a hundred and twelve action packed minutes about nottingham in nineteen ninety three. that's in the shops today and you can win that video, you can win that video this afternoon. and incidentally er about that video, can't tell you where you can them on the air but if you want to know where you can get portrait of a city, if you ring us on we'll tell you. well describing all those super videos er worked the oracle. we're now full so we'll play the game guess the voice after this one from sonny and cher. all i ever need is you from sonny and cher. well we've got the eight contestants we'll play the game, it's guess the voice and there's some super videos on offer and er it's guess the voice of the funny man, good videos on offer, grenville granville of mansfield woodhouse. hello . hello. tell me the voice of this funny man and you could win a video. they er di the strange thing about the critics is it's a theatre town and being like er nottingham has been made m much more so by the the money that's been spent on the theatre as in norwich. now southsea, not a theatre town, but i've played there many times before, arrived there is a large advance and advance for people that don't know is the money that's being paid over the weeks before when they hear this production is going there. let me tell you he does a lot on television in sitcoms er a lot of films as well, comic actor, funny man, who is he? is it norman wisdom? no it's not norman wisdom. no granville. sorry. alright thanks . sorry , thanks for trying. cheers. shirley of aspley. aspley. yeah. what do you think? erm, i've got a feeling it's him out of bread but i can't think of his name. you've go a f out of bread? mm. i don't think s er erm i don't think so. no. er s so many have been in you know so many have been in bread i don't actually, i don't play it again. again? yeah. oh. they er d the strange thing about the critics is it's a theatre town and being like er nottingham has been made m much more so by the the money that's been spent on the theatre as in norwich. now southsea, not a theatre town, but i've played there many times before, arrived there is a large advance and advance for people that don't know is the money that's being paid over the weeks before when they hear this production is going there. what do you think? erm is it dougie brown? dougie brown? mm. oh dougie brown, no it's not dougie brown shirley . oh. okay for having a bash though. right, thank you. bye love. bye. derek of wigston. yes good afternoon. what do you think derek? er simon callow is it? simon callow? no it's not simon callow, no, no . no?thank you. sorry. right, bye. erm er that nature i think but er not simon callow. david of sherwood. hi dennis. what do you think david? ooh i've been listening really carefully an i i can't even have a hazard a guess at this one. no good at all? no good at all i'm afraid. oh. sorry about that. oh alright , oh alright, thanks for trying. cheers. bye. bye. barbara of burton on the wolds. no it's no good dennis i heard it last week. i was hoping somebody'd get it. oh. no. can't it do doesn't ring a bell at all. not at all. it will do. it will do. of course it will. you know when you know. yes. erm erm have we got any clues? well other than you know he's he does a lot of television sitcoms, yeah not sure that he's on the moment but he's done a lot and films, er comic actor, funny man. it's not jim dale is it? not jim dale no . no. thanks barbara . thank you. bye love. cynthia of great . hello. er i'm a bit like the other lady i've no idea either. have you not? no i was hoping it would be won as well. no ideas? none whatsoever. no i'm sorry . oh dear. alright cynthia okay. thank you. thanks bye bye . bye. oh dear, erm kay of woodhorse park. hello. you know don't you? i don't. don't you know? no, i'll ha a quick guess, richard briers. no you're l but you're not far out with sort of age or style and that sort of thing. oh. you know so i mean y you're not you're not miles out. no. with with with the type of things he does. yeah. never mind. erm , dear alright kay. okay bye. bye love. well well there you are then. er i think we've got one more contestant and then that's it. just one more bash at this one. they er d the strange thing about the critics is it's a theatre town and being like er nottingham has been made m much more so by the the money that's been spent on the theatre as in norwich. now southsea, not a theatre town, but i've played there many times before, arrived there is a large advance and advance for people that don't know is the money that's being paid over the weeks before when they hear this production is going there. martin of swadlingcote. who's that? how are you dennis? not bad. erm i'm not sure you see i'm i'm a bit young. erm no. no. no? no no he's younger than you are. he's not. he is. i'm only twenty three dennis. er well he's not much older than you. he's not much older? no really, really. erm any more clues? no, i've given ever such a lot of clues, don't normally give this number of clues. we got all these lovely videos to win. oh. every time i get on it's always the same. well,some someone's got it by post. erm i'm struggling. i can tell. erm no good is it? no. not coming. alright, thanks for trying martin . sorry dennis. that's alright, thanks for okay. trying. bye. so it's the postal one again. i'm a bit surprised cos we have got some answers by post, let's see if we can get some more now. postcards please to funny man,, derby, leicester, lincoln or nottingham, whichever is closest to you. postcards to be here by wednesday next week when again we'll have, all being well, our funny man competition. and this is the voice you have to identify. they er d the strange thing about the critics is it's a theatre town and being like er nottingham has been made m much more so by the the money that's been spent on the theatre as in norwich. now southsea, not a theatre town, but i've played there many times before, arrived there is a large advance and advance for people that don't know is the money that's being paid over the weeks before when they hear this production is going there. who's that? funny man, comic actor, good 'un too. er postcards please to funny man,, derby, leicester, lincoln or nottingham, whichever is closest to you. now if we'd have the voice of the funny man guessed we would have had some postal contestant winners, but they now go back in the box with those yet to come in the next week. and that means we don't give out the toy dogs magazine, but hopefully we'll offer it a surprise tomorrow to the postal er to the postal winners. and the toy d w world of toy dogs magazine er this week er this issue this month features the chihuahua which is a delightful dog, and when you see the little chihuahua dog you don't realize that it's a fighting dog of mexico. it is, it's the fighting dog of mexico the chihuahua. anyway all about chihuahuas and lots more about toy dogs,th fascinating magazine, the world of toy dogs. we'll offer it tomorrow on the on the on the show. now if you like t take part in the phone-in, you know the number to ring, it's , we're taking calls now. and we had an irate call from a listener, er was it yesterday or the day before, saying,i want you to ring me. how i can never get through to your programme, never ever ever . you can if you keep trying. for the phone-in. also for bargain basement, that's the feature today, if you've got an item for sale, five pounds or under, we'll sell it for you on the programme. keep it a bargain price, we'll find you a customer. the number to ring to get on bargain basement right now is . the fifth dimension and up up and away. now if you'd like to call us t have a chat, the number to ring. if you'd like to go on bargain basement, the feature we have round about three thirty, if you've got something for sale, five pounds or under, call us on . er nice event at er kirkby in ashfield, on thursday, that's er ooh it's tomorrow. it's tomorrow at kirkby in ashfield. what it is it's the kirkby fund-raisers and rotary club of kirkby in ashfield and they're presenting a flower demonstration, always very popular. this one by an excellent flower demonstrator called ian . now ian is putting on this flower demonstration show, it's called from me to you. it'll be lovely, it's tomorrow, seven thirty at the festival hall, kirkby in ashfield, all the proceeds are to local charities and the admission is two pounds fifty, and that includes refreshments. if you would like two tickets, call us now on . in fact you won't be able to get through right now but keep on calling, that's and we'll send you a pair of tickets, we need your postcode and we'll send 'em first class. a flower demonstration called from me to you by ian tomorrow, seven for seven thirty tomorrow at the festival hall, kirkby in ashfield, nottingham, two pounds fifty and that includes refreshments. for sale, two tickets for the ted heath concert this friday at the royal concert hall in nottingham. e they want ten pounds each. they were twelve pounds fifty each. phone . okay, two tickets for sale for the ted heath concert, this friday at the royal concert hall in nottingham, they were twelve pounds fifty each, you can have the two tickets for ten pounds each, call ,. henry of allenton. yes dennis. yes henry. hello. hello. i want to speak to you about this street lighting. street lighting? yes. w see we we er i live in a cul-de-sac, allenton. yes. street, and the bottom lamp has been out now for six weeks. yeah. six weeks. have you told 'em? pardon? have you told them? have you told the authorities? yes, we've been the channels, been been right through to street lighting itself yeah, actually it's highways, isn't it? highways department. . no i no can't understand this,be be been to the city council, highways council and now we we've ended up with the erm electricity board. sh i rang er my lo local councillor an h he looked into it,an he said, er it's in the hands now of the electricity board. now you see we're being modernized in this area, now they're old steel houses in allenton, about five hundred of 'em yeah. now they've been digging up the garden to make a channel for all electricity to go underground you see. so something happened there at that house, we told 'em the house number, where the lamp's situated, we gave 'em all the information they they need but we still can't get any response. we've all been telephoning there's about twelve of us it effects. i've made about si six calls. you can't get anybody to come down to see about it. i'm surprised that er call to the local councillor didn't work. yes, i've called the local council. i'm surprised that one didn't work because i mean they're usually hot on it, you know they know where to go and and usually there's action taken if a councillor takes up the cause. yeah. is it causing, is there any danger? pardon? is there danger with the light off? well no oh yes it is danger , you see now see now the path around here,th they're laying a new new path. cos it wanted laying er now they've put the rough stuff down but when they put it down they left er about say inch er drop you know so er if you can't see where you're walking, especially strangers they're gonna tipple over. they're gonna trip up you see. cos we know it's there, so we we miss it. mm. but six weeks without a lamp it seems ridiculous doesn't it? mm. because we we run a a neighbourhood watch scheme. and how can we run our do our job like that without a lamp? there's only about three in the street. now one one of those at the top of the street where er where the er is,you can say virtually th about one one lamp in the street. well what can we do? how how do we go on now, who do we call now,anybody interested in the job. erm, well allenton. yeah. all we can ask is if there's a councillor for allenton listening to us, if they could get in touch and we'll put them in touch with you and see if we can start it all over again henry. i do know that street lighting is the very devil, cos it can come under about half a dozen different departments, it can come under highways, yes. but it can also come under electricity board if it's a failure of the electricity. yes you're quite right there because part of the street,the pavement and hard standing in the gardens for the cars which was a very good idea, now there's the city have done two thirds of that and then when they came to the end of the er cul-de- sac, mm. but as you say you know with this neighbourhood watch scheme you do need the lighting on properly don't you? yeah we do we can't do our job without. but is it working this neighbourhood scheme? neighbourhood watch scheme? yeah. have you have you ever seen anybody acting in a suspicious manner? oh not yet, apart apart from you of course? no no i i ca can see er most of cos i'm i'm in the area where the er lamps sh when the lamps are alight, yeah i can see anyone w lurking around you see. oh i see. but with a lamp out well we can't tell whether they're no-gooders, neighbours or what. you see we can't tell. alright okay. well if th if there's somebody whose listening in the derby area who can help us with a street lamp that's out and it's rather important that it get put on, and it's been out for six weeks now six weeks six weeks long time. alright. anybody calls henry we'll put 'em through to you. yes er thank you. okay. bye. bye. can you help henry out? rather important that one you know, a street lamp out for six weeks, though i know it's difficult getting in touch with exactly the right department and whose responsibility it is. but a councillor for allenton please call us,. i know how keen many of our listeners are on craft shows and there's a big 'un at nottingham university at the jessie boot conference centre, nottingham university on friday and saturday, november the twenty six and twenty seventh so this is in a couple of weeks time and giving you n advance notice. there are christmas gifts galore, and there's it's a big it's a big craft show put on by some good people. so the craft show, er adults are a pound, there's easy free parking, children are free and if you want two tickets give us a ring , but make a note nottingham university, this craft show, jessie conference centre, nottingham university, friday and saturday november the twenty six and twenty seventh from ten a m till six p m. friday it's noon till nine. anyway there y are, big craft fair and er pound a ticket this craft fair, november twenty six, twenty seventh, nottingham university, call us on , we'll send you a ticket first class we will. jean of nuneaton. jean. ah. vicky of skegness. that's right, yes . yes vicky. hello dennis. hello. i spoke to you on monday, er i think probably you remember regarding bosnia, collec collecting things for bosnia and that's right. taking them to road? that's right. now yes. i gave out a wrong number in you what? i gave out a you what? you stupid woman. you silly old bat. don't say that. what have you done vicky? oh i know . do you mean to say that everybody's taken them to road? well oh my gosh what have you done? oh vicky you've upset the whole system, everything's broken down . oh no. i shall be flying round there with my boxes to collect them . could they please take them to er ah one six two you said one three two. i did. i did dennis. who lives at one three two? what poor soul has been taking stuff in for bosnia ? i do oh you stupid girl. well i do hope that people are that interested to want to take things anyway dennis i mean, you know. well no but oh. not not there i agree,no . there could be grand pianos, campers, oh, oh buckets of coal, everything , you're coconuts you're very optimistic yeah . oh de what have you done? oh mm you've ruined the whole concept of the programme. how could you be like that? oh dear yes well mm. there are people around like me i suppose, not many thank goodness. no i'll thank you for the confidence no . so where do they g are you gonna go round to a hundred and thirty two and say sorry ? yes my husband my husband has actually been round. oh you are married? y h he has put a note through the door . you're married? i am married yes. and you've kept your husband? somebody wants me. yeah and you've kept your husband, i'm surprised . yeah i'm surprised. it's not your first is it? yes it is actually yeah . it's your first it's your first is it? twenty six years dennis,. never. poor soul he deserves a medal. oh oh god,i hope he isn't listening. so it's what, it's a hundred and sixty two? it's a hundred and sixty two to a hundred and oh dear sixty four road. he has put a note through the door but unfortunately the people were out you see so oh at hundred and thirty two? they're the ones with the grand piano in the front garden. oh well we'll look out for that. mm mm. i shall drag it off. oh dear oh dear oh dear. yes. do you know if you got anything? er no, i had one er i put the phone down from you which was er it was very deflating i had one pervert can i call him that came o really? yeah i did, come on the phone which you know wh breathing heavy and everything? well and er let's say everything but that yes and oh and was he interesting, what did he say? i'm not telling you dennis. why not? oh i'm not, i i'm just not. oh. i it's just you know i've told you what my wife s you've heard what my wife says? wha what does your wife say? to perverts. oh. have you not heard? no. she had this pervert on and he was going on all through everything you know what i mean? right the lot yeah . that's right. and at the end of it she said i'm sorry could you say that again? oh n over so he screamed and put the phone down. oh no ,i'll remember that one. yes. mm. yes but unfortunately so you mean to say that you made this tremendous appeal yes. for bosnia and i know this was a chance for everybody around the skegness yeah. area to give to bosnia yeah. and they don't normally because they're on a far-flung outpost of the british empire at skegness well yes and they don't normally give to anywhere, because nobody ever asks. n yeah. and this was the one opportunity and all you got was one pervert ringing you up . yeah. i mean i was given oh about t yeah he's rang since twice dennis. has he? oh yeah. again about half a hour ago. erm but er i had this very little lady who he's ill of course he's ill you know that ? pardon? i mean be sorry for him. oh mm . he is ill. he is ill. he is ill. er and he's probably listening now. he is ill. poor soul. erm yeah fair enough dennis. but you know er i was living in hope that the phone wouldn't stop ringing erm etcetera. but erm there is still time isn't there for no not if if didn't work if it didn't work once it won't work again. it's obvious that the people of skegness do not want to give. mhm. you have to live with this. there are times when you have to live with these unpleasant facts of life. that i don't understand. because you know, how much o well maybe nobody was listening. possibility. possibility dennis . possibility. in that case have you time for me to go over it again in case anyone's listening to oh no not you. ah no no cos oh no. oh no cos you give wrong addresses you do. oh no. i'm not gonna have it, you're gonna say, give it to the third caravan parked on the beach on the left hand side of the loo i know i promise i wouldn't honest . oh what do you mean you promise, you promised last time you'd get it right and you didn't. ah vicky you're hopeless at this . oh you're let's face it. with confidence you are . listen, let's face it. a a at raising interest in bosnia you vicky are hopeless . oh god . hopeless, what is the point of carrying on? why don't you just do your normal job, scrubbing the front doorstep, looking after your husband's breakfast isn't it doing the washing and ironing and ye oh , i ho i hope everybody proves you wrong dennis and the phone well they won't no they won't they won't. they won't and you leave it to one sixty two one six four road,in skegness. i shall say it again just in i'll bet you ma you probably get that pervert ringing now. yeah. have i got the right number? and tell him no. no. no what you wanna ring is skegness nine nine nine. that's right. yeah. right yes. talk to a beautiful woman constable. eh you know you've set me at it now, look i'm as bad as you. oh dear. oh dear. i never thought i me? never thought i'd get down to this level. really didn't. it's talking me it's my influence . i know obviously obviously. now let's get right, you are collecting things for bosnia? yes dennis . what sort of things? you're sure you got them right? you sure you got the right, you sure you sent off the right husband this morning? oh god. are you sure you sent off the right husband ? it sounds terrible. are you sure? well i think so yeah. what did he look like? pardon? what did he look like, the one you sent off? bald-headed, your husband's got hair. he's not you told me last time. . my gosh, you've sent off the wrong husband. you know you're getting me a name for myself and there might be somebody listening you never know . well if there is this time maybe it'll work. wh go on n what do you want for bosnia. right dennis n, tins of food, things like ham, fish, beans, anything tinned, packets of dried food, dried milk oh er dried herbs, jars jars of jam, marmalade anything that'll keep, herbs and spices, games for the children and i think i said monday, they needn't be new but ones that ne ones that do not need batteries. they can't get hold of batteries. and then you're gonna take 'em into derbyshire and then they're gonna go to bosnia fairly quickly. they're going to be collected alright i'm gonna meet them halfway actually between here and derbyshire erm at the end of november beginning of december and they are actually going, the last lorry leaves derbyshire on the tenth of what a time i had on that , it was wonderful. that's right. and i remember at the time, i was chasing you over a most ridiculous national press story that emlyn didn't like the idea of you a pop singer appearing in one of his classics. it was all a manufactured story it was all a load of nonsense and you've certainly proved over the last twenty five years how ridiculous whoever started that story was. well it was a good story i suppose. yeah having worked in newspapers er for two or three years i n i now know that the er what you look, well i didn't look for cos i was on the business page, what people look for is a good story and it doesn't necessarily relate to what's going on. yeah you you you sort of set off several legends in your lifetime adam erm le let's just er either destroy or establish one legend. go on then. that you have a table in a very posh hotel in london and you run your business from that table. how true is that? well i used to run my business from the teashop in and i ha they put phones and everything in for at the corner table. er but when they changed the room round i moved to the because and i became a director of the for a while fo three f four years something like that. erm but i've had to give it all up because i'm too busy, so i don't run it from anywhere now, but for the last er four or five years it's been from the hotel. you actually had a table at the hotel? yeah. why didn't you have an office, a plush office somewhere? well i don't like office , i love hotels and i think having meetings in a hotel's more civilized than sitting in an office. but you got people staring at you, you got people s coming up to you and saying, didn't you used to be adam faith? that's alright, i don't mind that. i'm f used to that now after a few years. the legitimate er side of adam faith did begin didn't it with ? was my first stage play that i ever did. with dame sybil , yeah. sir lewis absolutely. what they were like towards you? dame sybil was the most gracious, helpful, generous woman you can ever ask to work with, you know, you'd expect me to say that anyway, i'm not gonna say anything else er but in her case it really was true. she was er i mean was a pop s ex pop singer, i'd only just stopped singing a few weeks before i started to work with sybil and she could not have been more gracious and generous in helping me get through it. she was wonderful. you done some great stuff in the acting world haven't you, i mean you must be very proud of some of the stuff . i've had some marvellous parts to play, yeah. budgie was a great part and i loved playing frank carver in love hurts erm and i didn't when when i was asked to do i , well w actually i it wasn't a series, the writers and i were put together by a man called alan who's now my partner in alfie as well he's and he asked me why wasn't i working and would he would i mind being put together with the two writers. he arranged all that and out of the conversation at the er out came love hurts. and i never r expected it to be anything like the end result, i mean the reaction to it's been fantastic in the last two years. as i said we can talk about half a dozen adam faiths. the pop singer is interesting and er l er we've got a record,i it could be the best of adam faith and i think every track is practically worn out. they really were superb commercial happy songs weren't they? well you know it was one of those happy combinations of johnny writing them, john coming with those fresh arrangements and me sort of the naivety and the joy of being in the business, it was so exciting and happy that it was one of those lucky things where the combination of the three of us worked. that about twenty songs on the l p we've got and i think they all sold a million ah they were all big sellers or more . they were and they were all hits and it was a great period. and nobody ever said,baby like you did . yeah it was it was er you know it's it's er just one of those happy things in life where everything seemed to work great. but why did you stop? why did you stop singing that way ? well because i thought that the hits were coming to an end and i didn't want to become an all-round entertainer, i wasn't suited to it, i w i didn't have any feeling for all-round entertaining. i liked it when i was a pop singer and girls were screaming and it was er mad and exciting. i didn't ever relish the thought of becoming a sort of geriatric performer, going around clubs and summer seasons. er i'd always wanted to act even as a kid of fifteen sixteen er and i got into singing before i went into acting and so acting s see that seemed to be a good period to break my life and start again. but you must you must have been asked dozens of times to go back into the pop concert field? i have, i've been asked a lot in the last twenty odd years and it's only just recently that i've seriously considered it, which is why i've made this new album, midnight postcards. erm and that's really been coming on for about five years. a friend of mine dave who wrote half the album with me and produced the album has been on at me for five years, come on let's make an album, let's make an album, let's make an album, making a, let's make an album er and a few record companies have come on and they've always wanted me to do an album like maybe, let's prepackage old sixties' songs and revise them, or let's do love themes from t v shows and which would never have interested me, so i said to dave, you know when a record company comes with an offer to make an album, to do the album i wanna do then we'll do one. and came this year and said, come on do this album. it sounds as though y you you weren't heavily managed as a pop singer. it sounds as though you did the things you wanted to do. yeah well i've always done that, you know for good or worse. er i've always er, i don't think i e i b th whenever i've been unhappy with work it's been work that i've allowed myself to do for ulterior motives, for money or whatever i m the things i've done er even th the things that have been unsuccessful th if i've wanted to do them, i've been able to live with that. you do realize though that there must have been some people who were saddened by the fact you didn't continue your pop career? c i hope they're so saddened that they threw now they'll go out and buy it. alright but i mean,ge genuinely er yeah i genuinely look all i can say about this new album is if i'd have continued recording for the last twenty odd years and had a sustained recording career like cliff continued singing, this would have been the album that i would've ended up doing anyway. so in a sense, although i haven't recorded in the meantime, i st i still would have ended up in the same place. cos this is the album of music the sort of music i would wanna listen to and i like s performing. how did adam faith the businessman happen? that corner at the hotel? well er ha you know i found myself after budgie managing a singer called leo and that led to a lot of interesting business and getting involved an , and i sort of forgot adam faith for ten years and just got diverted really. and i'd had a car crash and it was quite a relief not to have to worry about performing. and i sort of started to get itchy feet to come back and do things in the early eighties and that's when i went to liverpool, i did a play with, i did alfie with alan who just directed the commitments and er we went to a b and that really got me fired up to start again, and i sort of did some theatre stuff through the bits and pieces through the eighties until love hurts came. i turned down a couple of t v series cos i didn't feel i was right for them. and just love hurts just seemed to fit, just right like a glove, i wanted to do it. so when the boys and i met and they said over tea i th , well why don't we do something about a love affair, it just seemed right. and fortunately it's worked out well. are you ever surprised at how good you are, particularly at acting? remember that basically you were a pop singer, basically . yes. erm i'm always overjoyed when people say things like that to me, that you've just said, er but i think i understand acting more than i understand anything in the world. and i have a passion for acting and the truth of acting which is like life to me. and if it if it i'm more surprised about if it's successful. er i'm not surprised if it turns out and people think it's good cos i spend when i'm in the part it becomes my life so i don't really judge it in terms of good or bad, i just it becomes like breathing. i know it sounds a bit actorish and pretentious to say that but it's a it's a hundred and ten per cent passion. i cut my other life off real life off and become that person and i'm at my happiest when i'm submerged in another character doing it. i lo i love the commitment of it, the total hundred per cent commitment of acting. and in a way that's how i approached this album, it's how i will approach alfie when we come you know it's it's a wonderful passion. and i missed that in the seventies and eighties, and my wife said you know you're mad, towards the late eighties she told me off, she said you're mad, you'll spend your life looking for something that you've already got, for god's sake just concentrate on what you r are, you're an actor, do that, perform. when you were and it was a you know it was a great happiness and release to shed a million other activities and flying in all directions thinking the acting wasn't enough and i wasn't enough for acting. and this last two or three years i've s i've become to realize that how important acting and performing is to me, and h how much more there is to do in it. but when you were a pop singer were you happy as a pop singer? i was happy as pop singer, the last couple of years i wasn't happy when i ceased to be a pop singer and i was er headed on a road of being an entertainer. i could not be happy doing that, but as a pop singer i was in my element, because really all i d i didn't even think of it as singing, i thought of it, when i performed on stage as a pop singer i just thought of of it really of making love to the audience. that's all i though of it about, i saw it as a really as er each stage performance was like an orgasm. just like girls were there, i was there and it was making love, that's all i saw it as. and it was a,whe when it then became more respectable, i lost interest in it. but gosh they were tuneful songs weren't they? they were fabulous songs, they were great. you know and i and i've only recently really come to terms with how much tha those early songs were part of people's upbringing and because of love hurts and everything people come up to me a lot in the street and we talk about the sixties and everything. and you realize that maybe they made love first time to what do you want, they had their first kid to poor me, they they bought their first house to someone else's baby, i mean there's fantastic memories, and that carries o , and i carry all that now. and for years i sort of just dismissed it as a sort of thing i did in my past. er maybe it's just gotta do with maturing and growing up, i think i've started to grow up finally. th the strange thing is about many of those songs, the shortness of them. yeah they were so short i mean what do you want you know was the shortest number one in history. one yeah. thirty two or something. and tim told me it was in the guinness book of records. this is the shortest number one. just that one most cost effective number one ever recorded. if you think about it adam, one minute thirty two seconds. it's remarkable. and it becomes number one, and it makes a lot of money for everybody and it makes everybody hum and it makes everybody toe tap yeah. one minute thirty two seconds . i know. from micky who's one of the most successful record pro producers that has ever been, he said if you haven't got an audience in the first thirty seconds you ain't got the audience. yeah but you usually do it in ten seconds. yeah. yeah, so you'd be if you're making records you'd better made it count early on. there re is a lot of truth in that. yeah. and they were really just yours. you didn't seem to copy anybody, er a lot of people copied you of course, but you well i didn't know anything about any none of us knew anything about anybody in those days, cos it was so early on in the, and we weren't, i was influenced more by people like blues er black blues singers, american blues singers like muddy and lightning , all those old blues,, er they were the heroes for me that i grew up with playing skiffle and and then lonnie became my first lonnie became by first hero and i er modelled a lot of my early singing on lonnie. and then when i came to what do you want it was like an whole new world had opened up to me. it's exciting. couldn't ha taken too long to learn at one minute thirty two seconds and no. two minutes twelve seconds could they ? it didn't take a lot of learning . but you had to get every word right of course. yeah. there weren't many words in one minute thirty two seconds . no. night must fall, the first er the first play that you did,w was it er were there was there any difficulty at all? i mean was there any difficulty learning lines, was there any difficulty walking on stage, acting the part, being an actor, because adam faith the pop singer may have brought them in but then he was forgotten on stage wasn't he ? yeah. well i think i had more problems when i was making films as a pop singer, because i was still pop singing as well and it was difficult to disassociate the two. when i decided to cut myself off totally and become an actor, it started to get easier. and that four years in rep, i sort of basically learn , i learnt the basics of the trade. and i think if any performers know any where they may find problems is if they're still very much involved in the music industry, because it becomes a sort of er a diversionary activity. it's a full time commitment er t and you if you are very if if you are er like say it's so all the time, it's difficult for her then to cease to be that, to be somebody else. so she would have to she was to given up her career in acting, she may have to take a view and give up singing totally for a while. just so she can change her perception of it all. you see it's quite difficult. so you seem to cut yourself off from anything you've done before to concentrate on what yeah. you're doing and yet you're doing this tour of alfie, which is obviously very important to us in the yeah. region, er a and you've produced this er music thing, so the very thing you you say y you've got this album and you're doing your acting bit. yeah, i'm doing both in . er now i think that's er that's a lot to do with experience. i think because i was so inexperienced in the sixties, er i don't think i could have coped with doing two things. as you get older and you get more experienced of it you know you y you begin to realize that, i mean this album, i've done this album and i haven , i've haven't just sung on this album and made sounds, which is what i did with what do you want, i've sung on this album and said something. so in a way it's not unlike working on the stage in a play. er because having written half the songs as well, the lyrics all mean something so i may as well have spoken them as sung them. now one of the things th we find that when we play an adam faith record, we tend to be singing it for the rest of the day you know, like what do you want don't start me on that, i'll be doing it in about two hours' time. do you? do i play my old songs ? do you no do you sing to yourself? do you sing those those, i still call 'em fabulous songs? yeah. no i don't sing i don't sing those songs. you don't sing to yourself what do you want? no. i don't. fool me. no i don't. someone else's baby? no i sing the new album. it's the first time i've actually, well cos i haven't sung for a long time. but this new album, er i've become er obsessed by it because i'm so excited, er cos i think it's actually some of the best work i've ever done. acting or singing. so do you have to be so enthusiastic about everything you do? er w is it is it a bore? it's lovely no, it's it's er it's it's good to hear. because it's so exciting. you know i pl i i started this album really i started writing it while i was doing love hurts in israel and zoe would s sort of catch in the caravan, what the hell are you doing now, you know i was writing lyrics and thi , and i started to get keyed into this album just before i finished love hurts. and i had a couple of months making it and god, it was such a wonderful time i had and writing the lyrics and saying things about love and feelings that have meant something to me over the years. er then i can't help getting enthusiastic about it. alright. let's talk about alfie. erm is it the film on stage? no, it's definitely not the film on stage. er mike said in his autobiography that when they got the play and converted it to film, they changed the age of the character for a start, cos in the play it was written in the late fifties by bill and it was written for a man approaching his forties. well in the fifties, forty years of age was hugely old, i mean my dad at forty when i remember back was like a really old man at forty in those days. and so when they changed the character to be twenty five in the film which w mi mike 's age, it totally changed the piece, totally and completely changed the piece. and it became er i think more people's perception of it now is that it's like a bloke bonking birds on stage, it's nothing like that. it's about really the tragedy of a man who's too old to change and too stupid to realize he needs to. a character part for you. oh wow, a character part for me. it's a wonderful part,it's a great part. and it's a it's an a wonderful play to go and watch. i mean i sometimes when i'm performing on stage and people are laughing so much in the audience i think god, you know why can't i go and sit in the audience and watch this, they're laughing so much. and in the last twenty minutes of the play they get a emotional kick in the stomach and it's gut wrenching. and the way bill writes about the tragedy of one of the women in the play is just remarkable. it's a wonderful play. does it move you playing it? it moves me playing it and it upsets me playing it, it's very upsetting to play alfie, because a he's such a disastrous man as a person d you know you think oh god i don't really wanna be playing this man for sixteen weeks but the part is so wonderful and the play is so rich that you can't help s sort of s submitting to it and putting yourself in the position of being a masochist i suppose. the audience go out then very moved? yeah they go in and they're laughing they're l they're laughing like mad for so long and it's so funny. and then they get this terrible jolt and er they come out with a totally different perception of what this play is than than they went in with. it's a it's a grea it's a great play, i've seen it performed by other people and it's a great evening. i don't say because i'm in it, it's just a wonderful play. you're at a stage now in your career where surely you can choose whatever you want to do? well i can choose what i don't want to do more than what i can do, that's easier to you know. i can choose not to do things that don't excite me, but fortunately things are happening that do you know. i mean i could choose not to do an album, but when they asked me to an album that was exciting to say yes. i could choose not to do alfie, but i wouldn't i'd never refuse to do alfie, i'd like to be fifty years younger so i could play alfie for another fifty years. that's interesting. so er how far ahead do you do you plan? well i'm planned now until december next year. er i do a plug the alb of the album midnight postcards we call it, i'm plugging that now until christmas, promoting that er on television and radio, and i er in between i go on a short holiday to africa and then january i start alfie until may, and then i think i'm gonna do a t v movie or a movie in june july, and then in end of july i go to america for four four till the end of november with alfie. we're gonna take alfie to l a and do it in l a for three months. have you b played in america before? no never played never played in america. no not in the theatre. what about what about well i did the odd movie bits in america, and er when i was a pop singer had a record in the charts in america but never done a play there. it'll be interesting. it'll be interesting to see how alfie of course works in america. you're very intense on everything you do. intense about this new album, intense about alfie, intense about about your life as well. yeah. er would you never appear in anything flippant, anything trivial? ooh yeah, well i would er i would er i wouldn't appear in anything trivial, no i wouldn't i wouldn't consciously wanna appear in anything trivial. i wouldn't mind appearing in, i'd like you know one of the things i'd really love to do is a er comedy. like a . the character i would've liked to have played more than anything else if it had ever been you know, if there was one going now would be rigsby in rising damp. i love that character and i would have loved to have played that character, but i don't think anybody it for you take this album maybe the end of next year but you do realize you would be lynched if you didn't do poor man, i would do poor man all someone else's that of course i'd do what do you want. er because it would be stupid for me go on stage singing and not do a selection of all those songs that th they're the reason i'm here. but er but it's changed hasn't it? changed but life changes. but you see they want you to hear, they want to hear you do all of your standard adam faith hits. yeah. erm but it's changed that you wouldn't get your clothes ripped off any more. no. because that did happen to you didn't it? yeah. i liked that bit the best. you like that bit? yeah. i liked that. when they stopped pulling my clothes off that's when i packed up singing. is that what it was? yeah definitely . yeah. sounds as though it was very expensive because the clothes you wore must have been it was worth it. was it? believe me. oh. oh. so the thrill you get now is thrill i get now? is having an audience there yeah. watching you yeah. and being moved by what you're interpreting on the stage? yeah. yeah and er look i think the process is that you do work and you feel passionate about it, you wanna do it the best you think you've done it as well as you can do it, and then you put it out in whatever form, in a t v series like love hurts or on stage like alfie, or in an album like midnight postcards and you then just pray and hope that people want to listen to you, want to watch you, want to hear you. that's what you pray for. because what's the point in doing no matter how good you think you're doing, what's the point of doing it for yourself in the living room, you want er everybody to listen to it. you want that's what you're doing it for is hopefully so other people'll appreciate it. our special guest adam faith, he's in alfie, which is at nottingham's theatre royal on the twenty eighth of march next year and the box office has just opened so can actually er go there to see not just a performance i think, not just a play, but something of an event. but we'll finish off with erm adam's enthusiastic er er new album. you you pick a track. er well y i pick one that might be too long for you so pick roxy roxy which i love. quite a thrill having adam faith on the programme actually for me, for a lot of different reasons. but roxy er roxy that was from his new c d midnight postcards and er he's going to be at nottingham's theatre royal march the twenty eighth next year in alfie, coming well ahead of it to tell us about it, and that's going to be a blockbuster i think next year, and then goes on to los angeles. lucky adam faith. er right well let's get back to erm er er other things. and bargain basement it is now. er ha programme of changing facets this programme. bargain basement, items for sale, five pounds or under, if you want an item call us on please. we start in lincolnshire at skegness with mick , what ya selling? greenhouse heater dennis. how much? fiver. on paraffin? no electric. electric? electric it's right. thermostat controlled, it conforms to british standards, it's waterproof, it's everything. it's only suitable for a greenhouse. i've moved on to more sophisticated mist sprays and everything and that's the only reason i'm selling it. electric greenhouse heater, thermostatically controlled, a fiver at yeah. skegness. thanks a lot mick. okay. bye. bye. gotta be a bargain that i think. electric er thermostatically controlled greenhouse heater for a fiver at skegness. call us . brian of ratheby by sp . oh hello dennis. yes brian. i've got a large carrying case for an electronic organ keyboard er i want to sell, it's it'll take a keyboard erm forty one inches long by forty inches wide and four and a half inches deep and it's all sort of shaped inside with the lining to to the shape of the keyboard and nice strong box. lashes and carrying handles and everything. how much? er fiver. an electronic organ carrying case. yeah. and it'll carry an organ forty one inches by forty four by four and a half deep. yeah, and there's a little side pocket in there as well you can keep i suppose you keep leads and things like that in it as well. a fiver at ratheby by spilsby. yeah. thanks a lot brian. okay thank you . bye bye. good 'un that ratheby by spilsby. brian's selling an organ electronic organ carrying case for a fiver, forty one by forty by four and a half it'll take. mary of lincoln. hallo dennis. yes mary. oh, er first of all i enjoyed that record of adam faith's. it was good wasn't it? it was good. i'm yeah. a fan of his. oh good. erm i'm selling er a lady's dark brown real suede full length er warm pile lining coat, in lovely condition. do you know the size? twelve to fourteen. how much? a fiver. a lady's full length dark brown suede coat, size twelve to fourteen, five pounds at lincoln. that's right dennis. thanks mary. thank you bye . bye love. again another bargain from lincoln. mary's selling a full length lady's dark brown sue real suede coat, a fiver. just a fiver. give us a ring if you want it. er jackie of methringham. hello, hello dennis . yes j yes ja i've got er a radiogram. good working order? oh yes, it's perfect. erm it's a few years old but it's hardly had any use. how much? erm five pounds its er about four feet long and it stands about two feet high, it's on legs, it takes quite a lot of room up and we need the space. radiogram yeah. four feet long, two feet high, yeah. perfect working order, five pounds from metheringham. yes. thanks jackie. thank you bye bye . bye love. for that. into leicestershire now and george of barwell. hello dennis. yes george. i've got two dark solid wood folding chairs, new, unused, five pounds each. ah yo er well you can only go to five pounds the two on here. oh just for one then. make it one,o one dark solid wood alright okay. a dark solid wood folding chair a fi a fiver at barwell and it's new . folding chair new it ye . thank you. right thanks a lot. thank you. a dark wood folding chair, new from barwell for a fiver. call us on please. kerry of desford. hello dennis. yes kerry. erm i've got a nearly new gentleman's beige suit. it's erm thirty six inch waist, forty chest and twenty nine inside leg. a fiver please. a nearly new gent's beige suit. yeah. thirty six waist,d you say thirty six waist ? thirty six yeah. forty chest, twenty nine inside leg, a fiver. yes please. thanks a lot kerry. thank you. bye. bye. from desford that's gent's suit nearly new, a fiver, beige, and it's thirty six chest, forty inch er thirty six waist, forty inch chest, twenty nine inside leg. barbara of sileby. hello. yes barbara. er i used to collect the cat stevens' l ps and i've got one for sale. which one? it's buddha and the chocolate box. buddha and the chocolate box? yes. how much? two pounds. perfect working order? yes. right, cat stevens l p, buddha and the chocolate box, two pounds from sileby. thanks barbara. thank you. bye love. bye. for that. cat stevens l p, buddha and chocolate box from sileby, two quid. into derbyshire now and dawn of littleover. hello er dennis. what you got? i've got a lady's shell jacket, you know th like a shell suit but it's just the jacket separate. size? erm twelve to fourteen. it was fifteen pound new i want a fiver for it. a lady's shell jacket, yeah. size twelve to fourteen, it cost fifteen and you want a fiver. yeah. thanks a lot dawn. right. bye bye. from littleover, dawn offering that lady's shell jacket, size twelve to fourteen, lady's shell jacket size twelve to fourteen, cost fifteen and she wants a fiver. please. fred will you put the light on? beatrice of alveston. hello there. who're you bossing? my husband. poor devil. poor devil. tell him to join the society which i'm starting up after the programme. are you? yes. well y y you know you sometimes say will you mind turning the wireless down,an i remembered that it was on. well the way you ordered him, that was a what ya selling? erm boy's bicycle. age? boy's rac racing bike. racing bike. age between eight and twelve. good working order? oh yes good working order. everything good about it but the tyres, it might need new tyres on now. boy's racing bike, eight to twelve ye yes but the bike itself is in very good condition. yeah. boy's racing bike, eight to twelve eight to twelve good working order but the tyres might need attention that's right. and how much, fiver? five pounds. five pounds alright . yes. thanks a lot. right. thank you. bye beatrice. bye. the number to ring there if you want that boy's racing bike, eight to twelve year old for a fiver, but the tyres might need er might need renewing. jackie of allenton. hi dennis. what ya got? erm i've got a readers digest, it's a large hardback book er complete guide to sewing, it's a a to z, it's got all the sewing essentials and also for making household items and toys and clothes and everything, er for a fiver. how much was it new, do you know? it was about thirty five pound new. thirty five? yes. was it? yeah. oh dear. it's got everything you can think of in it for sewing and that you know so okay alright jackie. thanks a lot love. okay, bye. jackie's at allenton, and it's the readers digest a to z guide to sewing and a lot more things as well. cost thirty five pounds new, jackie wants a fiver for it. readers digest a to z of sewing guide, lots of other things as well for a fiver, it cost thirty five quid. , into nottingham and eric of well it's derbyshire, ilkeston. yes eric. er i've got some home brew bottles for sale. how many? er thirty. thirty home brew bottles. and i want a fiver please. fiver. alright thanks a lot eric. and the phone number is . . thank you eric. thank you. bye. bye. eric's at ilkeston, and wants to sell thirty home brew bottles for five pounds. phone if you want them. . lindsay of baseford. hello. yes lindsay. yes i've got a boy's erm black coat, size thirty, very good condition. size thirty? yeah it's a boy's. black? yeah. padded black jacket. black jacket? yeah. a boy's black jacket, what age? er it's about eight year old. eight year old? yeah. alright. a boy's black jacket, size thirty for an eight year old, how much? five pounds please . five pounds. thanks a lot love. right thank you, bye. bye. for that boy's black jacket, for an eight year old, size thirty, for a fiver, it's at baseford, nottingham, call us on if you want that. ways from buddy holly. erm for sale, for the ted heath band at the royal concert hall this friday, one pair of box tickets, cost twelve fifty each, will accept twenty quid for the pair. phone nottingham. one pair of tickets for ted heath, they cost twenty five, will accept twenty, for this friday, phone . just a mention about the good old days quiz book, a b b c publication which is at your local b b c radio station, costs three pounds for one thousand questions, don't be without it this christmas, and it does make a lovely christmas present as well. getting some nice letters about the good old days quiz book, don't miss it, you local b b c radio station, it's also on sale at er bookshops throughout the east midlands and at the row library in nottingham they've told me to say as well. three pounds, i'm doing two signings, one is this sunday at the radio lincolnshire open show, i'll be there on sunday from two till four signing the good old days quiz book, two till four this sunday at radio lincolnshire's open day and on wednesday december the eighth i'll be at at nottingham, and doing a signing there for the good old days quiz book, b b c publication. you can get it by post at three pounds fifty by post, send a cheque or postal order made payable to the b b c for three pounds fifty, we'll sent it b , i'll send it by post to you and send it to afternoon special,, derby, leicester, lincoln or nottingham if you want the good old days quiz book by post. big charity night, thursday the twenty fifth of november at the polish centre, street, loughborough. seven forty five, there's lazy daisy country and western, pat on the flute, charlie lovely comedian, malcolm on the organ but tickets are three pounds fifty, you can get them mr at . . norman of leicester. norman. hello dennis. er it's norman the town crier at leicester. yes. you remember, i've met you on various how are you? well? not bad are you? yes i'm hoping you're gonna help me. i've got a very awkward er predicament i find myself in. go on then norman. i do a lot of talks for groups and clubs and organizations on the history of town crying and my own experiences, all for charity. and in my diary i've got one for tomorrow night, for an organization called the judges guild in leicester, somewhere in the road area. unfortunately i don't think they haven't confirmed as they usua most organizations usually do about a week beforehand er by phone, to make sure it's alright, and i've lost their letter. and so i'm not sure where it is, what time it is i don't have no contact for it to get in touch with, and i'm wondering if anybody, any of your listeners either members or know of the guild. i think they meet in the road area and it's called the judges guild. oh dear. the road area. i think that's where they meet, i mean they may come from all the place but it's the judges guild and i'm due to speak to them tomorrow night. right norman, well let's put you can appreciate the predicament i'm in. yeah we'll put the call out and see if anybody knows where you're speaking tomorrow night, norman , town crier of leicester, he's speaking at the judges guild but who, where, what, what time the judges guild at leicester in the road area. let's hope someone calls and we'll put 'em in touch with you norman . well i hope so. hang on, hang on give u right give us a blast go on. oyez,, oyez, oyez, greetings to all listeners to afternoon special and especially dennis your regular host. oh dear you've ear you've earned your keep there. we we'll do our best for you norman. thank you very much. bye. bye bye. beautiful. norman , town crier of leicester. but where is he speaking tomorrow night? at the judges guild at leicester. road area somewhere, anybody know? quickly get in touch otherwise you won't get him. to the news we go with with wipe out by the safaris. hello mary lou from ricky nelson that one. join me john this afternoon, four thirty till seven, yes the teatime show here just after dennis, the news, weather, travel, sport, everything you need as we roll you home, and then six till seven in the cultural oasis. finally, we'll be talking to paul about the best selling records of all time in the country, guess what's number one? well you might find out a little bit later on,an i'll also have live music on the show from the old vic in , andrew 's gonna be down there with edward , it's all to come. and john invites you to teatime just after four thirty. er barry of newark. barry. hallo dennis how are you? alright. what can we do for you? well er we're a little bit perturbed here all the er shopkeepers and the people here in the heart of newark, er it's been put out on er nottingham radio that er newark is actually closed to people. eh? can you believe that? mind you, mind you i went er through newark the other day and i had to go round the mountains to get back on that road out to lincoln. yeah. with all the closures that there are. yes, getting through newark er can be a bit of a problem because of that er huge roundabout they've dug up right in the centre, but er coming into newark and going back out again is no problem whatsoever. you know, parking here in newark, there are plenty of parking spaces and all the shops are open and we're all ready to bustle but no one to bustle to. wh now what what do you say we're saying? yo you're saying that newark is actually closed, don't go to newark because er of the roadworks, it's er it's closed. we never said that . yeah it's been given out on the radio today dennis. or words to that effect. which programme has said that newark was closed? oh i i can't pinpoint the actual programme, it's just er what people are telling me has been st er stated on radio nottingham. i think we're warning about that er roundabout yeah i mean that is pretty horrendous it is it is, and a bit of an eyesore, we're all how long's it gonna be, when's it gonna be f ? well i reckon it's gonna be december the twelfth before they're actually finished. so at least least for christmas it's gonna be done for your christmas trade? well er i mean christmas trade starts as of of course it does. a couple of weeks back dennis as you know people are shopping already and normally on a wednesday we we're we're really bustling, it's our busiest day of the week. but today it's like a ghost town. we need you to tell people to come back into newark, don't be afraid of the of the works. okay well getting in and out is no problem. alright let's get the message out then. yeah. you're saying that there is no traffic problem in newark, going through it er would be a problem, going through newark actually going through you have to go round a system as you as you quite rightly said. right. but coming in and going back out again is no problem, from any direction. and parking? parking's fine. absolutely fine. i mean normally er this morning for instance, normally i park on the big car park down near the the river there, yeah. and er normally on a wednesday morning that's quite full. this morning there were three cars besides myself and that frightened me to death being a trader . mm. we like to see the people here. you know the the new ring road that that escapes yeah newark altogether and takes yeah you out to lincoln and so on yeah yeah has that made any difference to trade? er not not really because it doesn't sp stop the people coming into newark that were coming anyway. you know, it doesn't seem to have affected in that erm respect, no. now wait a minute, er i've just had er er the presenter in who's given yeah me the actual thing of what we're saying. yeah. now you tell me if this is wrong. alright? right. yeah. right. major work continues in newark town centre with the closure of part of in the beesmarket hill area of the town. right. diversions means that delays are likely. now that was actually said this morning. got ya. is that wrong? no as far as i can re er as far as what's been stated to me, i haven't heard the broadcast myself because i'm here from early morning onwards, sure, sure. as you can appreciate, it's just what people are saying to me who who actually have come into newark, they're but is saying oh we've warned er not to come in because of the roadworks. but is that wh is that correct? major work continues in newark town centre with the closure of part of in the that's right. beesmarket hill area of the town, yeah that's perfect diversions means that delays are likely. yeah, diversions coming through the town, yes . yeah, but not not going to. no going in and coming out again, there isn't a problem. okay alright. well that's actually what we said so we did not say, and i no i appreciate that. i'm not blaming you, but no. whoever told you was wrong yes. we did not say that newark was closed, i couldn't imagine us saying newark was closed. no i it's it's the er you see, people read into it what they want to read and er if they yes they do, yes they do hear of major works causing a problem in newark, we won't both going, we'll go to lincoln or or elsewhere . that's right, that's right, that's right. mm, so in newark carry on to coming into newark. going into newark yeah er n going through newark there are difficulties. there are difficulties if you're actually travelling through newark. but going into newark for shopping, there are no difficulties there's none whatsoever. plenty of parking, parking spaces and everything . plenty of parking sp plenty of shops ready to do business dennis, that's what we're here for. alright. wh now what's your business? er i do er i'm in the butter market, i have an antique stall in the butter market here in the heart of newark. an antique stall? yeah. you got anything good? oh loads, loads of it. all for sale. what's what's what's the most expensive item? oh er there's no real expens the probably the most expensive is five and a half hundred. for what? that's for a capodimonte man with a horse quite attractive . really so it's still fetching money p capodimonte real stuff? capodimonte has always been collectable dennis, it's never gone, never gone down in in popularity. the only problem is of course that a lot of er sort of capodimonte copies, yes imitations yes you want stamped signed pieces with a certificate to say do you what they are yeah. do you know? i'm not that er good at it er as far as that's concerned, i can normally tell, but i wouldn't class myself as an expert in capodimonte. if i have a problem then i can take it elsewhere and find out for sure. okay. what's the l least expensive item on your on your sh ? couple of quid. for what? oh for a a wade er little wade whimsy or er er a handmade glass animal mhm. type thing. and are you still looking for the thing where you go and buy and you give a fiver and it's worth a dream dennis five million. it's a dream. is it? yeah. it does still occasion look at that constable the other day. you see there fantastic. may be a series of constables are out there, water colours those have got be somewhere. that's right. that's right. bought for about bought for thirty quid and worth thirty thousand each . yeah absolutely, if only. well it's gonna happen though hasn't it? i'd be set for life if something like that happened. would it? do you ever go to the erm er to the winthorpe, to to the big newark erm antique show? yes every time it's on. isn't that fantastic? oh it's brilliant. when you get three thousand stalls all set up and it's another world yeah it's amazing. i=n' it? it's amazing yes. it's another world. yeah it's have you it's lovely. now presumably you're doing this er personality analysis, as part of trying to work out who you are and where you're going. is that right? that's right. yeah. okay. well that's fine. that's what we normally use it for and erm what i'm going to do if that's okay is i, i'll describe the erm the actual theory to you mm. and get you to self estimate er where you come on it mm. you see. and i've got a little chart that i'll give you to do that on. mm. and then erm we'll have three readings, really, of erm where you come mm. on the chart. one of which is this erm estimate that you'll do now. mm. and then you've filled in a works situations mm. questionnaire, and that gives us another reading. mm. and then there's the proper questionnaire and i've scored that up. right. so we get three readings. okay? and then erm we work out erm a best fit right. er you know so far as we can get that erm and i'll then give you a description of how the theory er predicts your er preferences for behaving in particular ways, would work out. mhm. and you can read that and we can have a bit of a discussion about that mhm. to see if you think it's appropriate and mm. accurate or not. erm and basically er the, the reason for doing it that way is that erm, i don't want to set up a situation where erm i'm some sort of expert and i er this is not a matching process, okay? no. no. it it's really to give you er whatever insights you can get from this particular theory, erm about the way in which your, your personality works right. so that then you can use that er to make er a better career decision. mm. and indeed actually it's quite interesting anyway for all sorts of mm. er applications. erm but the idea is that it should be, very much be something which you erm er you know the, the estimate and so on is, is something which you've contributed to yeah. rather than have imposed on you by somebody else. because th the key thing is that you should be more in charge, not that you should be receiving erm some statement from an expert which then determines what happens, you know? right. so it's that sort of process. mm. does that sound okay? that's fine. that's fine. good. okay. well erm i'll give you the er little chart here. now erm oh you've got a pen. excellent. erm if you, if you, if we just er look at that for a moment. mm. the way it works is that the theory, the theory actually erm er has four dimensions. mm. that's why there are four of those. and what we'll do is i'll tell you er what each dimension consists of. and the idea is that that's the midpoint and there's a one to ten scale going each way. mm. and erm you work out whether your preference is very strongly this way or a bit this way or a bit that way. mm. and just put a mark on the line to indicate the strength of the preference. does that sound okay? mm. right. well let me explain briefly th th the overall structure of the theory. all personality theories divide personality up into dimensions. mm. erm this one has four dimensions. sometimes they have about twenty. mm. erm and the theories differ, in terms of what the dimensions are called, and what it consists of. and erm this theory has four dimensions, and each dimension consists of two polar opposite types of behaviour. and the theory is that every individual has an innate inborn preference for behaving at one end or the other. mm. okay? er now it's important to get the idea of what preference means in this context. it is not an exclusive predisposition. mm. so it doesn't mean to say that you only behave at one end or the other. erm in fact life requires everybody to behave at both ends. mm. but the theory is that there's a biologically inherited preference. right. mm. now the ex the analogy which is used, to, to sort of explain this a bit further, is, is with handedness. are you right or left handed? right handed. okay. so that means, in, in the analogy that your right hand is your preferred hand. okay. erm have you ever tried to write your name and address with your left hand? yes and i was hopeless at it. hopeless. how did you feel while you were trying ? er really strange actually. mm. i felt that i was using a part of me that wasn't used to functioning and i've just recently started juggling oh really. yes. and er i have a real problem with using my left hand. oh interesting. because erm the, the erm what usually people say is that erm if you use your non-preferred area in the psychological sense, then it's very hard work because you haven't got the same degree of control as you have in the other mm. areas. so to achieve a, a sort of given result you have to work much harder. erm and usually it feels very awkward. mm. it doesn't feel comfortable at all. erm but if you persist you get better. mm. and you know normally with the handedness, you don't use your left hand unless you break your right wrist or something. mm. but in the psychological area you do have to use it, you know quite a lot of the time. mm. erm but you should be able to improve. er you know, but none the less there is this preference. that's the idea really. mm. okay so that's the idea of preference. mm. now there are, there's one preference on each of the four dimensions. er and that means that there are sixteen different preference combinations y you know that mm. are possible. erm and er the other thing about it is that although we have to look at, in order to discover the preference, we have to look at each dimension as a discrete entity, once you've found the preferences, they actually have a dynamic relationship with each other. right. yeah. and the description which i'll give you allows for that. and also when we, when we've worked out the best fit preference, i'll explain a bit more about how the dynamic relationship mm. works. okay? okay. right. so that's, that's the end of the overview. so shall we start trying to work out what the preferences mm. are? now the first dimension is extrovert and introvert. ca yeah. can you write on this erm extrovert on the left hand end where the dots are and introvert on the other end. right. now i'm sure you've heard of these terms before. mm. erm but i think the important thing is that jung on whom this er particular theory it's based on his mm. theories. erm he was the person who invented those terms. and of course he meant something probably rather different from what the popular meaning is. so it's important to define it really. this, this dimension is about er where you prefer to focus your attention and where you get your psychological energy from. okay? oh right. yes. and that's what this dimension's about. and the erm extroverts are people who prefer to focus outside themselves, on the world of people and things. the introverts prefer to focus on their own inner world, of hopes, dreams, fears, aspirations, ideas. whatever's inside. now if i give you an example of a bit of behaviour where erm a situation and, and er give you an idea of how introverts and extroverts would behave in that area, that may help you to work out which you think you are. say you're with a group of students and erm you're sitting round drinking coffee one morning, and the sun's shining. and somebody says, let's go to scarborough for the day. you know it's a terrific day, let's go to the seaside. erm now the extroverts preferred response, to that, is an instantaneous reaction, which they share. oh terrific idea. yes. i'll go and get my fishing rod. mm. or, oh no. i can't stand the seaside. couldn't we go to the north york moors mm. instead. right so instantaneous . now introverted people hate being asked to make instantaneous reactions. they actually want to think about it. whatever it is, they want to think about it. erm and then, they may share. right. or they may not. erm now what they say about erm extroverts is that, if you don't know what an extrovert thinks, you haven't listened. she will have told you. er if you don't know what an introvert thinks, it's because you haven't asked her. yeah. okay so there is a difference in, in, in that way. erm and i told you how the extroverts would behave. now an extreme introvert, might be er sort of case you know, you're, you're erm er cutting up the sandwiches or whatever preparations you've got to do and so on. er and you then, you get to the time when you're all going to get in the car and go off. and erm the er this particular person just isn't there. mm. well they've decided they're not gonna go. they haven't actually told anybody. er er and they've just disappeared . mm. erm a less introverted erm er response would be, half way through the preparations to say, well you know actually i'm, i don't really think i can come. i mean i've got this person to see, or this essay mm. to write, or something to buy in town, or whatever you know mm. they thought it over and they've worked out, and they're not gonna come. right. now of course these sort of situations do cause a few problems, because, or can do, because erm the extroverts expect everybody to share, you see. erm and of course if you had half a dozen students, and two of them were extroverts, and they both wanted to go, and they both said, yeah. terrific idea. and maybe the other four wouldn't like it at all. but if mm. they weren't actually saying anything, then probably the plan would sort of go ahead and, and, and then you might find that you know half of you didn't actually go. erm the other thing about extroverts and introverts is that erm, extroverts really like to do their thinking er by er putting out their point of view, and getting everybody else's point of view out, and, and looking at it. but for introverts, really, thinking is done in here, you know. and they don't, they're not so keen on, on the sharing really. erm i mean does that give you an idea of which yeah yeah way you go. okay. yeah. sorry, do you wanna stick down. right. mm. you were gonna say something. is it just, well i was j er i mean i find it hard cos i suppose everybody to some extent, in the, the extent to which they live in their own house, mm. are introverted. if you see right. what i mean. yeah. i mean i am just as much as anybody else. but i think naturally with mm. the sort of analogy with going to yes. scarborough i think i'm much more extrovert. okay. yeah right. and i think i will have come out that way on the thing. do i put a cross? yes. a cross would do fine. right, okay, the next one is sensing and intuition. sensing on the left and intuition on the right. okay. right. now this one is about erm how you prefer to take in information, how you prefer to understand things. it's about perception. mm. now the sensing person, prefers to use her five senses to perceive what's going on about her. and prefers to concentrate on present concrete reality. what she can actually see, touch, smell, hear, taste. mm. if she can't see it, touch it, smell it, hear it, taste it, it doesn't exist. that's a bit extreme but it gives you the idea. now the intuitive person on the other hand prefers to use her sixth sense. and erm prefers to focus on future possibilities rather on present reality. mm. so it's not erm, what exactly is the nature of this relationship? it's, how might it develop, what might it become? or not, exactly what is this thing i've got here and what can i use it for now? how might it be changed? what other uses might it have. erm intuitive people have inspirations and hunches which they trust whereas sensing people are pretty mistrustful of inspiration. and they don't like intuitive leaps which intuitive people make. sometimes they won't, intuitive people can't actually tell you exactly how they've arrived at this perception, they've just got it. er and sensing people find that ex extremely odd mm. and erm really very unsatisfactory. mm. erm and the sensing people want a step by step logical statement of how somebody has reached erm mm. you know a particular conclusion. erm i once, talking to somebody about this and er he said erm, well he said i think i must be an intuitive because i've never let the facts get in the way of a good idea. mm. now for er sensing people it's probably the other way round. mm. the ideas have to come from the facts. mm. do you do you have a yeah. okay, right. fine. jolly good. next one. erm next one is thinking on the left mm. right. and no sorry just thinking. oh. and erm feeling on the right. feeling? yeah feeling. now those terms are a bit peculiar. you always get trouble with them in psychological tests, cos you either use terms which nobody knows what they mean, or you use terms which people have meanings for and that's not what you actually mean by them. and feeling doesn't refer to emotion as such. this dimension is about erm how you prefer to make decisions. you've perceived something you've now got to decide what you're going to do or whether you're going to do anything. and the difference between the two is in terms of the material you prefer to work with. and the er it's all rational, so it's what sort of material do you prefer to exercise your rationality on. and the thinking people prefer to use impersonal objective material. mm. whereas the feeling people prefer subjective personal mm. material. so you've go got a situation where if somebody wants to change something they're actually, you know maybe it's something you do in a job or something like this, and somebody says we, we really ought to change this. or it might be something sort of domestic like maybe you go shopping every same day every week or something. erm and somebody says well you, you know, you should change that. erm then the thinking person's sort of preferred response is to erm seek a tight definition of what the change actually is. erm so they'd wanna know well you know if it's a shopping change then erm, do you want me to change the day? do you want me to change what i buy, do you want me to change the time i do it? do you want me to change the place i go to? what exactly is it that mm. you're, you're, you're saying that i've got to do? erm and how'll that effect what went on before. it may be there's some sort of sequence to these, this activity. erm and how does it effect what comes after? so it's a very logical impersonal sort of approach. mm. okay? now the feeling person on the other hand faced with this sort of suggestion would immediately start saying, well erm why are we going to do this? er who for whom is it a benefit? or who sees meaning in this change? for whom is it of value? is it going to benefit the shop keeper? me the, the customer? or you, some of the other people maybe on whose behalf i buy things? mm. or, you know, who, who is going to benefit from it? and how are the people in it? so, so really you're looking at the values in it you see mm. which are essentially subjective and also the people, how are the people who are affected by this, actually going to feel about it? you know, are they actually going to erm er see it as a positive er step? or are they gonna see it as negative and disruptive? and maybe some people will see one way and some people see it another way. but er er concentrating on the personal, the subjective. mm. yeah. do you do you get an idea? yeah. okay stick, stick something down there. right. good. and the, now last one is judging, on the left and perceiving on the right. and this is really about your erm your lifestyle, your pre preferred lifestyle. how much planning you actually like to have in your life. now the erm judging people want everything to be, well they prefer to have everything cut and dried, sorted out, closed off, decided. they don't like ambiguity or loose ends. at all. the perceiving people on the other hand, want to be flexible, spontaneous, and responsive. mm. so if, if they, if everything's planned out, it's a real straitjacket for them. and they don't like it. yeah. erm now if you think of organizing a party, is quite a useful example of this. now judging people don't like loose ends, and get worried if things are not being organized. okay. so usually they do the organizing. er the perceiving people don't, it doesn't worry them very much, they'll do it all at the last minute and get it sorted out somehow. erm so if you've got a judging person and they're having a party, then they will, they will organize it a fortnight in advance. and they will erm work out the guest list in a balanced way, according to whatever they want to happen. and erm er they will s think about whether they've got enough, be enough room for the number of people. whether they've got enough chairs. where the drink's coming from, how much it's gonna be. same thing for the food. if there are gonna be any activities then if you got a really extreme judging person, on the day, there'll be, you know, sharpened pencils, and sheets of paper, and rules for whatever games are going to be paid. now the perceiving person on the other hand, would erm say, about midday, well i think i'll have a party tonight shall we? erm, how are you gonna get everybody there? well we'll see whose around, and tell them, and they can invite a few of their friends, and we'll see how it goes. what about the drink? oh tell everybody to bring a bottle. er what are we actually gonna do? well we'll see. i mean when people come, see who knows any good games, and they can organize them. you know. er so it's all, all frightfully open-ended, and flexible and so on and mm. quite different. and, and, and the judging person invests a lot of effort in the actual organization. and they get actually pretty upset if only half the people come. because you know, there's all this stuff ready and so on. or if twice as many people come, they get upset too, because they haven't got enough. whereas the perceiving person is much mm less phased by this and says, oh well there are lots of people, that's nice. i don't know half of these people. i've lots of new people i can meet. or erm if only half the people come, well that's fine we can have a much more sort of intimate evening, and erm actually there'll be lots of food for everybody won't there? you know. mm. so they're much more, more flexible about yeah. things. and, and, the judging people, their ideal event is one which goes exactly to plan. whereas for the perceiving people, that's probably pretty boring. mm. okay? yeah. i can work oh pretty, pretty far down that track. okay. right. let's have a look. erm now you get erm a letter for each of the preferences. that's the way erm they do it. and you can't have i. it's usually the, the first letter but mm. you can't have i, because i for introvert mm. so it's n for intuitive. n, p for perceive. right. now we'll have a look at the erm the work situations one. you may remember, you, you can see what's going on now. that's extrovert, sensing, thinking and judging, yes. and so on you see. an and i simply add the ticks and see which comes out. yeah. and it comes out the same. yeah. so that's fairly straightforward. erm this is not very accurate. mm. and it's not a fine discriminator. erm but in fact certainly those three you've got a very clear you know mm. sort of six difference is not much on the other side mm. anything on that . now this one is a bit closer. mm. erm but it's still, still reasonably clear and then we've got this which is erm it's all er constructed so that there's a weighted score mm. you see so you actually get that. er and that's the same again so we haven't got any problems i don't think about the fit. that's from the questionnaire? yes it is. mm. and in fact it's interesting that the erm the extrovert is actually quite high mm. on that. peop people say that, in fact all your scores are quite high while p is the, actually that's rather, rather that's yeah different from that isn't it? and those are the same well i think it yeah because when i was filling in th yeah. i, i mean there were a lot of questions like you know does the idea of making yeah. a list for things oh yes. appeal to you. those sorts of questions. and it doesn't appeal to me but i know that i should do it. and i, i know that i'm forced to do it. an and s s so sometimes i think my sense of obligation yes ah. carries me so. but whereas when you were talking about it then i mean when i think about it it's quite obvious that's what you're most comfortable doing. i resist it. but yeah. yes. well you see what happens is that, erm you, you may have a preference but you learn that you've got to use this other behaviour mm. yeah. an and so you do. yeah. you know. but that doesn't alter th the fact that your preference is the other way. yeah. and in fact it's quite interesting sort of analysis this because erm i, i actually think that the erm the best er well it helps you if you know where your preference is, because if, if then you're behaving in the other area then you know that that's not re your preference mm. and therefore if it's a bit difficult. well you know it's a bit difficult and you know why it's difficult mm. but you can do it because you know you can go back home as it were in to the other area. whereas if you think well you know this is, i'm doing this but i don't know whether this is me and i don't feel very comfortable with it and all that mm. it, it's actually much more difficult to do it. mm. erm so in a way knowing your preference, doesn't mean that you can't do this. mm. or that you don't. er and perhaps er you know you can have a role where maybe you've gotta make decisions and alright you do it. you know. erm but it makes it easier in some mm. ways. erm and, and it sort of explains to you what's happening. mm. which, which can be quite, quite useful. yeah. erm. okay. so i'll give you the, the, the description. erm. is that quite a high score there? i mean oh yes. some of them are quite definitely in one. well the thing is, the interesting thing about this is of course is what we're actually dealing with is not erm well in a sense er not, not erm your actual preference, which according to the erm theory is unchangeable. you mm. know it's, it's sort of in you. sort of genetically inherited. erm but whether it actually erm is realized in practical behaviour mm. is another matter. just like the sort of nature nurture argument mm. in biology. you know you might have a gene which says well you'll grow to be six foot, but if you're not fed properly yeah. then it won't happen. mm. so and it's the same thing with the preferences. mm. so in fact a high score is, is quite good because it means that you recognize what your preferences actually are. mm. you know. so it doesn't mean, you know, a higher score on perceiving doesn't mean that you er necessarily very seldom er exhibit judging behaviour. you might exhibit quite a lot of judging behaviour, but it feels peculiar to you an and you know it's an effort. and so you're quite clear that your, your preference is perceiving. mm. it doesn't actually mean necessarily erm how you behave. mm. if you see what i mean. cos jung had this idea that the whole the whole of life was a journey towards the discovery of what he called the real self. mm. now that's a bit of an elusive concept really but none the less i think people have er a sort of idea that there is a real them mm. somewhere, and that this probably gets pulled about mm. by relationships, by external events, by roles which they take on. and erm therefore it's quite a real thing to a lot of people. and what the, this preference thing is after, is describing the real self. mm. there's also er i mean i think there are, well there are probably lots of selves but, but erm er there's the real self. the sort of inner self if you like erm although that's expressed in, in behaviour quite often. and then there is how you behave, which may not be the same thing as the real self. and then there's an idealized self. the sort of mm. person you might like to be but actually unfortunately aren't. you know. mm. and the real self's probably somewhere between the behaving self and the idealized mm. self, you know. erm well let me find this, fish this out for you and er you can er have a look at this and see what you think. okay. thanks. read that and see whether you think it's er accurate or which bits of it click and which bits of it don't. mm. most, most of it's true. yeah. okay. well let me explain the erm oh that's, that's a description on the back. can i have that back for a minute and i'll just explain one of the erm a bit more of the structure of it. e n f p. now the, the theory erm is that there are four mental functions in the middle here. and the extrovert and introvert, and judging and perceiving are sort of orientations. so if you imagine that erm you're a motor vehicle alright? and the e i and the j and the p are if you like sort of part of the bodywork which decides whether you're a sports car or a heavy goods mm. vehicle or whatever. but the engine that actually drives you mm. is these four mental faculties okay? erm or mental functions. now one of these is dominant okay? and that's, in your case, that's that one. and then the other one you then have an auxiliary or second one. and those are the two preferences mm. okay? and then the other two erm, less preferred areas, erm the least preferred is opposite the erm number one, the most preferred, and the third one is opposite the second one. now thi this has some implications for decision making. mm. if, if you actually,an and a career decision is one type of decision. erm if, if you want a good decision you've gotta use all four mental functions. mm. but the preference theory suggests that erm you will use them in order of preference. so er if you've got a er a problem, say the career, what are you going to do with yourself? well the first thing you do is start thinking of lots of possibilities you see. and erm you get all these possibilities erm set out, and then you use your feeling judgement to er cut them down. mm. er you say, well you know alright there are all these things i could do but erm er what, where do i think i re really want to work? i mean where would it be worthwhile for me to work? you know. what do i what is so important to me that i want to spend all this time on it? you know, how does this fit with my value system? so you'd use mm. your value system to actually erm fine down the number of possibilities. now the danger is for n f people that they don't use the s and the t. and according to the theory you would then, after you'd used the n and the f you'd then start to use the t which is the sort of logical thing. you'd say well what am i trained to do? what sort of background have i got? what skills have i got? do i need training to do this? mm. and then the s, the senses, the last erm is really about erm well are there any jobs in this? an and do people actually get paid to do it? and what sort of activities do they actually engage in? mm. what is the nature of the experience of somebody who actually does this? mm. and if n fs are not careful, they've got this terrific sort of value laden possibilities idea mm. which is a bit vague and erm you know er an and they never get to well what are the skills? and where are the jobs? and, and what actually do you do day to day? i mean it may, may fit your values and it may have lots of possibilities but what are actually gonna be doing and will you actually be capable of it or, or enjoy it or whatever. so you need all four an and it's not a criticism to start with the n and the f. that's how you are and that's how you have to start. i mean it's no good you starting on the s and the t. you'd get bored with it before you'd, you know,so but you need to bring the others in. mm. that's, that's the thing. mm. so erm you know that's th what i'm really talking about is more a question of the process of erm career choice, than it is saying what you should do. mm. erm the there is something which i suppose can be said about what you should do, if you're an n f and a, and a,an a dominant intuitive. by the way this tells you what your, you see your dominant is intuition and then with feeling . mm. erm now er if intuition is the dominant thing and you're an extrovert, then you erm really need situations er where you can change things. where you can actually erm make things change. mm. erm and if you're a er an intuitive feeling person, then really it's crucial that your value system is accommodated in what you do. mm. you know that makes a huge difference really. mm. erm so that's very important. erm hmm yeah, yeah. well that's about it i think. erm what are you actually thinking about doing anyway? erm or haven't you got that far yet? well i think i've got a bit stuck on the n and the f actually . i see. so we want some s and t . we do yeah. no well i've just had erm an interview and erm really just exploring the things that i myself thought of trying yeah. probably erm i think i'll, i'll do on the oh yeah. yeah mm mm. and do that for a while as well as some, some voluntary work. that what i was thinking of doing for next year. it's really, i mean next year i was sort of quite co i'm quite committed to not having a year off so much as just exploring things and that's what right. what erm heather? yes heather yeah. yes that's what she said. she said you jus mm. cos i haven't, like she perceived that i was very kind of lost really. and you know didn't know enough about the different areas of work that i was interested in. and she said oh the best thing to do is just sort of travel for a bit an mm. not travel aimlessly, but travel with a purpose. mm. an and find out as much as possible an and then erm try and get on to something for the year after. for nineteen ninety . yes well you'll need to do some s and t you see, erm before you go off on your travels. that's it . other otherwise you really won't know what you're coming back to so. well exactly. no i couldn't face that i don't think. i've got to do something. right. well that's what i'm, i'm doing here and yes. trying to work, work yeah. things out. yes. cos it, it's true that i resist it. you know i mean i didn't want to come today. i resist no no. the sort of process. yes, yes. you know i just think that i should be able to get a job just like that and yes yes. well of course erm sometimes you can. but, but it is, it is dangerous because of course maybe it doesn't work. erm and especially in the current climate you see it's also erm interesting because of course this, this, this sort of theory depends who's interviewing you. i i if, if, if they're erm an intuitive feeling person, then they may think that's okay. er but if they're a sensing thinking person they will find it almost totally incomprehensible, that you've been so lax as not to have actually worked out in detail erm you know what their job is? and erm why you want it? and why you, why it fits? you know why they should employ you given you know what are your skills yeah. and what are your this and what are your that. an and really even the n f recruiters will er want some of that. well i think for them to be in, in management, top management positions a lot of them they'd have to be pretty sensing and thinking before well i do i mean i think there's yeah, yeah, yeah. room for my sort of personality in most careers, but to some extent it's got to be you know balanced and yes you've, you've got to do the lot you see. so, so you need to get on to the s t bit. i mean have you done the erm any of these other things? i mean you've done the personality thing. er if you've seen, have you seen this wherever it is. erm oh it's over there. the erm planning your future thing or not? no, no, no. well it doesn't matter anyway. erm. this thing? oh yes. i've got that. you've got that? mm. you've got that, you've got that. right, you've got that. yeah. now i'm, i am trying to work through it methodically actually. yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. okay. well erm this has been quite helpful though. i do feel that cos what you've done then is that. mm. i've done the, i'm just in the middle of the skills one. oh are you? yes oh jolly good. yes. yes. that's quite interesting. well it is because that actually does, with the pie chart, lead you into sort of chunks of work area mm. which you know then you can explore a bit. what comes across in both my interests and any skills which isn't really reconcilable with this i don't think is that erm i've got sort of, because of , i think it's cos of my academic experience cos i did an arts degree with a lot of research and stuff, is that i, i like researching, data collecting, processing information. which isn't really i mean i don't think not an n fs thing. not really no. no it isn't. erm well you have to sort of decide i suppose erm which way you wanna go. mm. you know. although you see erm as we've been suggesting any project requires that. you know you, you, you need to be doing some of that. it, it's just a question of i suppose whether you do it or you get other people to do it or or what. you know but, but probably to start with whatever you're gonna have to do you're gonna have to do. and i think the s and t thing is, is erm it's very good to have developed skills in those areas. wher it's a question of where you sort of harness them really though isn't it? well it's erm i mean helen suggested mm. librarianship an and it was mm. something which, that interested me but i do think i'll find it boring or something. yes well no this wouldn't necessarily support that. erm it, it would depend i suppose erm well the n f people they want to be able to change things you see. you can't change things much in a library. no. erm er if they're, if they're introverts, then it's alright changing things just by changing people's perception. so erm you know you, you, you i mean i'm i n f j and so it's alright for me to think i've changed your thinking. whether you actually do anything about it is up to you you know mm. so i, i mean i suppose in a sense it would be good if you did actually change something but that's not entirely necessary for me. if, if, if it's given you a slightly different slant on it, and you're thinking has changed. in some way. then that's okay for me. now if i was an extrovert, it wouldn't actually be enough. i, i, i would want actually to see real results you see from erm the change. that you had actually shifted from this to that, and you went off and did whatever it was. mm. you know. i th i think you probably need a bit more er in terms of, of, of, of results. erm although you see you could get that in librarianship. if erm you, you might erm in time er er you know become er the, the librarian or something. well then you're, you're managing the thing, and you're actually responsible for trying to work out which way it's going. mm. you see. so in a sense that might come later on. so you might find that er a and in, in some ways it's rather interesting, because your s and t skills might get you the job. in a sense, you know, you wouldn't get it without them. erm but what's needed for later on, might be the n and the f. because erm you know you can't manage people without some consideration for er for their, their views and how things affect them and so on. erm and you need to look at the big picture. mm. yeah it's no good getting bogged down in the detail. so i suppose whatever area you went into, erm you might find it a bit frustrating to start with, because you weren't looking at the big picture. well i think that, that my problem is, you know like,cos i did do the p g c s oh of course you did. you came and talked to me yeah. about it then didn't you once? and that was my problem with it was that i was in much in terms of being able to go into the classroom an and talk to the kids and have a really good relationship with the teachers and things. and i discovered that and it didn't work out. to actually create the right learning environment for them, there were a thousand little details that i had to attend to, like had i planned my lesson right, was i progressing in the right way round the classroom, had i remembered to chase up certain people's homework, and stuff. and that i find incredibly difficult. you know it was a real effort for me to remember all those things. because i am so kind of, you know i've got ideas coming in and out of my head all the time. but you know i still think that i'm drawn towards that sort of teaching, performing that kind of role erm and that wouldn't be fulfilled by librarianship at all. no. but i don't think it would do me any harm to develop some more organizational skills because mos most jobs require them. yes. you know i don't think you can get by without them really. you know i mean you have to have time management skills to have a reasonably well you do don't you? yes successful life, don't you? i mean it's no use being yes, that's right, that's right. i mean as i said when i was filling in the questionnaire i was thinking well this, really this is my preference and you know i'd much rather be in a job that allowed me some flexibility. you know rather than down to the line planning for every single moment of the day. but having said that i can't see a job where you can just kind of swan in and you know and think about a million different things in one day or whatever. so you know i mean i su i suppose a lo the questionnaire seemed to concentrate very much on how you were outside work. and i mean i su everyone has to resign themselves i think to some extent but the fact that they are playing a role within their work situation. right. and they can't allow their personality free expression . i mean that's what another thing i found very hard about teaching. and the teachers commented on it. they said that i was too much of myself. you know i had to assume this more detached role. from the kids. yeah. yeah. well it, it, teaching has a lot of er er problems with that really because it's, it's, it's playing a role. i mean it's acting, teaching more or less. yeah. and you know and you, you, you got to have, gotta get, you know, you have to get cross with them if they misbehave or whatever because otherwise there isn't any order in the place. mm. an an and you know those sorts of things have to go on. erm i'm just trying to think what other sorts of jobs you might be interested in. i think anything with writing. i mean that's come up again and again. journalism and that kind of thing. yes. yeah yeah. but there's a lot of s t in journalism isn't there? quite a lot of s. you've gotta do your, you know, go out and sit in the county court and wait for something exciting to happen well especially again when you're, when you're training. well that's the thing you see i think you're, you're, you know that's gonna be the problem that you're, you're twenty six forms which police had to fill in to prosecute a thief. and are too many babies being born by caesarian? british coal has asked the national union of mineworkers to discuss further pit closures. the plan set out in a letter to the union is being seen as a sign that all thirty one pits earmarked for closure last year, will now shut. in the commons, the energy minister tim eggar said the government was prepared to go on funding the current redundancy terms available to miners until april next year. labour's robin cook said the miners had been betrayed. it was just over a year ago that british coal announced the closure of thirty one of britain's deep mines. five months later the government gave twelve of the pits a reprieve after an unprecedented outcry from the public and m ps. but today british coal said the closure review procedure was being reintroduced after its suspension last year. feelings ran high but it wasn't like the drama of last year when the government were forced into a humiliating review of their pit closure programme. michael heseltine let his deputy tim eggar put the case that the government had tried to encourage the market for domestic coal. the opposition condemned ministers for a cynical exercise which they knew would fail. if any other government in europe had such efficient pits and such large coal reserves, they would be safeguarding that national resource, not shutting them down. it is not the miners who should face the sack, but the ministers who have betrayed them and betrayed britain's coal industry. the government is now washing its hands of the industry as it hands it over to a rigged market which will leave very few pits in britain and the destruction of an asset which the british people asked the government to save and which the government said they were going to save. mr eggar insisted that the government had poured enormous sums into the industry. twenty billion pounds since nineteen seventy nine. that means one million pounds for every miner now working in the coal mining industry. and the honourable gentleman has the nerve to say that we have rigged the market against coal. the energy minister denied that the government had broken promises. the government made its position absolutely clear in the white paper. we said there was no guarantee of additional markets. we accepted the recommendation of the select committee that a subsidy would be made available. we have made that subsidy available. on which pits might close, that, he said, was a matter for british coal. but some of the tories who successfully rebelled last year, showed their disappointment. and one of them complained that the government were prepared. to allow this country to import coal into the united kingdom putting people out of work when in fact we have some of the finest and most competitive deep mine coal in the world to offer for sale. last year, mps were shocked to be told that thirty thousand miners would lose their jobs and half the country's pits would close. much of the anguish that produced is still present. but there's now a more fatalistic mood. everyone accepts that pits will close but there seems little chance of the government being deflected by another rebellion among tory m ps. john sergeant, b b c news, westminster. there's been predictable anger in the mining industry to today' news. many workers said they'd expected another round of closures despite the earlier announcement of a reprieve for some of the collieries. and n u m officials have accused the government of misleading the public into believing the pits would be saved. calverton colliery in nottinghamshire is one pit under threat. the law says that british coal has to go through a procedure of consultation before it can close pits. after today's announcement, the miners there now expect that to be done. it's been on the cards for so long i think everyone's had enough. let's just get it over with i think most people are thinking. it's expected. we know it's been coming. it's just been a matter of time. well i'm forty three, i don't see what future i've got. i mean if i retrain you know, there's a thousand people for the same job, it's just looking very bleak. miners at bilsthorpe watched the announcement on television. the pit's threatened. after the tragedy there, they're also concerned about safety over the decision to repeal a law limiting miners' hours. safety does come cost and and here in notts that we've had a safety policy. it's been now some eighteen month, two years. but it does cost er the corporation. i don't think that er smaller operators when er safety becomes deregulated will be able to afford er that cost. british coal put no numbers on collieries to be closed. authoritative sources say about fifteen pits are now threatened. with nottinghamshire first in line. the corporation hopes miners will take the redundancy and not go through the lengthy procedure. it says the money is generous. unions call it closure by stealth, they feel tricked. they were simply buying time, came out with a white paper that meant absolutely nothing and now we see the full effects of it. we're about to lose our coal industry and er we're about to lose it because of the incompetent blind dogma er of this present government. if i say that er the the reduction the industry is facing is about fifty percent. currently we've about thirty operating collieries. erm i think the the the scale of that reduction is entirely er predictable. and in fact er we said that at the time the white paper was published. it is the home straight to privatization. the smaller british coal is, the more attractive it is to buyers. but there's a city of london view that not much will be bought. contracts to buy coal aren't there. until such contacts are in place, deep mined output would not be attractive to the private industry and would not be saleable. british coal and the government's problem would be if the men don't volunteer. if they don't accept closures soon. that will leave the corporation with too many collieries on its hands and that would put privatization into doubt. stephen evans, b b c news, at british coal headquarters. thousands of pensioners travelled to westminster today to protest against the government's plans to impose v a t on domestic fuel. at a rally they heard the labour leader john smith repeat his criticism of the government having a fatal addiction to v a t. several conservative mps have stepped up the pressure on senior ministers to reverse the plans. as coachloads of pensioners arrived at westminster from around the country on a suitably chilly day to protest about what might happen to their heating bills when v a t's introduced. their message to the government was blunt and straightforward. well i think it's disgusting. absolutely disgusting. we either freeze to death or starve to death. they don't care about anybody. their pockets are lined, that's all i've got to say. around five thousand converged on the commons to lobby their mps and the labour leader sought to step up the pressure on wavering conservatives at a pensioners' rally. if john major and kenneth clarke think that they can ignore the anger and the distress of millions of pensioners, they're making an enormous mistake. and one of the six tory mps who signed a critical commons motion today on v a t on fuel, came to the rally to deliver this warning to the government. that i no longer believe that the government has a majority for this measure. aware of the risks of losing this argument, a confidential briefing document from central office was today sent to tory mps with advice on how to answer the crunch question, haven't you broken all your promises? not at all, say the government and anyway help's at hand. oh i accept there is obviously concern and i will try and meet that when i introduce a package of measures at the end of november in the normal uprating statement to help those on lowest incomes who are affected by this. there's no doubt there's widespread concern among conservative mps about the imposition of v a t on heating and fuel and rallies like this will only serve to heighten it. but equally there's no evidence that the number of would-be rebels is increasing and that would seem to suggest that unpopular though this measure might be, there's little prospect of the government being defeated on it. john sople, b b c news, westminster. an increase in high street sales has given some unexpected good news on the strength of the economy. sales rose by a half of one percent last month, that was double august's increase and more than experts had predicted. the city welcomed the figures and the one hundred share index rose by twenty seven points. despite other signs of weakness in the economy, today's official sales figures suggest activity in the shops remains brisk. september saw strong increases in sales of clothing footwear and household goods. retailers at the lakeside shopping centre in thurrock in essex are seeing their best business for many months. we've been averaging over a quarter of a million customers a week and an indicative of this is that recently in the last week, we've just opened an additional three thousand car parking spaces to take our grand total up to twelve thousand spaces. so we're having a very successful year i'm pleased to say. but while retailers are optimistic, at the motor show in london this morning, britain's car makers were still expressing concern about industries prospects. recession abroad has hit exports hard and though business at home has been improving slowly since the start of the year, confidence remains weak. there doesn't seem to be a consistent upward pattern er traffic that comes into a dealers showrooms to buy cars can be up one week, it can be down the next. so there's no consistent upward trend but overall we have seen an uplift since the beginning of this year. consumer spending has been driving the economy out of recession this year, but the recovery is patchy and the chancellor will scrutinise the last detail of every economic statistic in the next month, before he decides whether he can risk raising taxes on november the thirtieth. gerry baker b b c news. the home secretary michael howard has announced measures to cut down on the amount of police paperwork and put more officers back onto the streets. he said the plans could free more than two thousand officers for front-line duties in england and wales. for police forces struggling to cope with record levels of crime, arresting people and locking them up is only half the battle. at some police stations, when a suspect is in custody, his name may be written down on different pieces of paper on sixteen separate occasions. about half the tie the police spend investigating crime, is taken up with form filling and bureaucracy. an officer dealing with a straightforward case of theft has to complete at least twenty documents as well as laboriously transcribe tapes of interviews. it's the bane of many officers' lives. i didn't join the er the police service to to be a pen pusher or a paper or a form filler. erm many of my officers erm indeed all of them are of the same mind. er the very fact that we're at our desks er for more than seventy percent of our time filling these forms in er prevents us from moving on to the next prisoner and going out and arresting more people for crime. the consultants called in by the home office identify computers and information technology generally as the best way of saving time. civilians should also handle more of the paperwork. all of the recommendations have been accepted by a home secretary who's staked his reputation on making an impact on crime. the consultant's have put forward proposals which they believe could halve the amount of police time spent on these administrative tasks and which could put the equivalent of up to two thousand three hundred police officers back on the streets. the consultants noted that substantial efficiencies could be made if the crown prosecution service which oversees cases going to court, didn't need so much paperwork. for the police, it's one of the fundamental issues. there's too much paperwork involved in getting fairly simple cases before the court er er there is too much paperwork because of the demands the system makes of us. we need to address those demands with the other parts of the system and do it together. while welcoming the prospect of more officers on the front line against crime, the police are concerned the proposals will have to be funded from existing budgets. neil bennet, b b c news. in the united states, the attorney general has said that unless the american television industry substantially reduces violent programming over the next year, the government may have to intervene. the warning follows a string of incidents including one in which a five years old child burned down the family home, killing his sister, after watching cartoon characters playing with fire. it might seem idiotic but a scene from a recently released hollywood film about american football, the programme, depicts young players testing their bravery by lying in the middle of a busy road as the traffic drives by. after watching the film, one eighteen year old in pennsylvania was killed and a friend critically injured repeating the stunt. in long island, new york, another teenage boy was critically injured trying the same thing. the kids just don't seem to know the difference between movies and and what's real. in a recent episode of a music television cartoon called beavis and butthead, the characters play with fire. one five year old in ohio who watched the cartoon but who was also left alone with matches, burned down the family home, killing his two year old sister. the u s attorney general janet reno, warned of government action if american television does not reduce violent programming. in only a half a century, television bought violence has become a central theme to the life of our young people. as central as homework and playgrounds. we're selling soap through television, we're selling cars through television and we're selling violence. the british standards if you compare them, much more rigorous. america was a violent society decades before the invention of television or films but some in congress say the most powerful media in popular culture have a responsibility at least not to make things worse. gavin estler, b b c news, washington. the time is six fifteen and still to come, should alleged rape victims be granted anonymity? we talk to one victim who says all sides should be named when cases come to court. and can celtic raise their game in europe and see off the bad old days? tens of thousands of women are being given caesarian operations to deliver their babies even when it's unnecessary according to the national childbirth trust. the number of caesareans has almost trebled in the past twenty years. as i and is continuing to increase. the trust says the fear of possible litigation after complicated births may encourage some doctors to perform the operations. have you been stealing your father's socks? look. ee caroline spears says she was given no option but to have a caesarian section when her daughter freya was born eighteen months ago. freya was facing the wrong way in the womb but her mother says she wasn't allowed even to try for a natural birth. she's expecting her second child in three weeks and is determined this time to have the baby at home. i wasn't presented with the full facts. i wasn't able to make a choice based upon being fully informed. erm and i feel that for no good reason i was forced to go through a major surgery. which took a long time to recover from. i still feel i've been deprived of a natural birth. the national childbirth trust believes at most one in thirteen births needs to be a caesarian but the present rate is one in eight. although in some hospitals it's as high as one in five. if you don't do a caesar when it's needed, then of course you can end up with a baby that's damaged. but equally if you do a caesar that isn't needed, you end up with a mother who feels traumatized, and isn't able to really relate to her baby as she wants to. campaigners blame the rise on what they regard as an increasingly remote institutionalized approach to childbirth. forty percent of consultants questioned said fear of being sued was a key factor. but for some women it's the preferred option. diana hambleton had an emergency caesarian with her first baby, her second caesarian was booked in advance. being that i'd had one before and i was alright about it, i feel fine. just a bit of stomach i feel like being kicked in the stomach by a like a horse but that's about it. the royal college of obstetricians says accurate figures on the number of caesareans are difficult to find. but it believes the numbers are levelling off. and campaigners are out of date. oh they're talking about the obstetrics of the nineteen eighties not the nineteen nineties. the thing has gone through a tidal change and we know pay attention to the views of women themselves. both the royal college and childbirth groups agree that consultant obstetricians should spend more time in the labour ward helping junior staff. campaigners fear, unless action is take, the number of caesareans could rise to american levels, where one in four babies is born this way. fergus walsh, b b c news, at the royal college of obstetricians. the health and safety executive says there may be a link between some cases of childhood leukaemia and the sellafield nuclear reprocessing plant in cumbria. it's been claimed that children whose fathers worked there were genetically damaged by radiation. but the h s e says the cluster of leukaemia cases is confined mainly to the nearby village of seascale and to children whose fathers began working at the plant before nineteen sixty five. it says a combination of factors may be responsible. british nuclear fuels denies the plant caused any leukaemia. at carlisle crown court an arms dealer stephen shepkey has been jailed for life after being found guilty of aiding and abetting the murder of an accountant, david wilson. mr wilson was shot be two gunmen at his lancashire home last year. the jury failed to reach a verdict on a charge of conspiracy to murder. businessman david wilson was murdered in the garage of his home at chorley in lancashire. police described it as a gangland style execution. mr wilson, a forty seven year old accountant, was shot through the head twice after his family had been tied up and held captive. what emerged in the crown court trial at carlisle, held under extraordinary security, was the story of a twenty six million pound international fraud, involving the sale of non-existent cigarettes to various buyers. the plan then was to scuttle the ship supposedly carrying the cigarettes, thus destroying any evidence and collecting on the insurance. the court heard that the man behind the fraud was an american going by the name of hector portillo. he's currently in new york facing extradition moves. when david wilson realized what was going on, he began talking to scotland yard. portillo it's alleged then arranged for someone to, blow the hell out of mr wilson. stephen shepkey, an art restorer and professed gun dealer, was the man who helped organize the shooting of david wilson. he faxed details of the location of the wilson home back to the united states. but tonight at the end of the eleven day trial, the two gunmen were still at large. mike mckay, b b c news, carlisle. there've been demands today for the names of alleged rape victims to be published if the accused is acquitted. it follows yesterday's acquittal of a former student austin donnellan who was accused off raping a friend. women's rights groups say fewer women would report rape and even fewer cases would come to trial if anonymity was not guaranteed. muriel harvey was raped on her way back from midnight mass in ludlow last christmas. the former magistrate chose to go public. she says the women in the donnellan case should have been named as should all alleged rape victims when their case comes to court. a woman should not fear coming forward. she should be prepared to come and stand on her own two feet and say, er this happened to me, i've survived it, i'm proud that i have survived it. people will show great sympathy, i can tell everybody that. the nineteen seventy six sexual offences act conferred anonymity on both victim and defendant in rape cases. but a law review committee later said rape defendants were getting preferential treatment. and since nineteen eighty eight it's been permitted to name the alleged rapist. angus dougal is appealing against his three year sentence for attempted rape. his solicitor duncan mcnabb believes the accuser should remain anonymous but the accused should only be named if found guilty. there is a risk of a blemish being left er on the name of er a c er of a defendant of a rape case even when he is acquitted. there is a strong argument er for us to revert back to the previous legal state of affairs in which the anonymity was preserved both of the complainant and of the defendant. it's widely agreed that anonymity has made women more willing to report rapes. many lawyers and women's rights campaigners say it must stay. for it to be known that a woman is a victim of a rape attack, would really stigmatize her. it can put pressure on her family, on her children, er put pressure on her at work in her job situation and she could be under a lot of harassment. for austin donnellan, yesterday's acquittal should end the matter. but his case has raised new questions in the continuing debate about how the courts and the media should deal with rape. wesley kerr, b b c news. the government has suffered another defeat in the house of lords, over its plans to privatize british rail. a rebel tory amendment tightening the rules governing the b r pension fund was passed by twenty nine votes. labour say they believe it's unlikely the decision will be overturned in the commons. aid agencies are warning of a severe shortage of food in central bosnia and with winter approaching, an estimated one and a half million people there are now dependant on aid. many are becoming increasingly desperate and turning their frustration on humanitarian organizations, which they say are not doing enough to help them. yesterday police used teargas to break up protestors blocking aid lorries near zenesa. earlier today near women and children robbed another aid convoy. the women begin to gather at first light. from here they can see convoys coming half a mile away. when a dutch convoy appears in the distance, they move in blocking its path and demanding food. the convoy turns and heads back to the warehouse at zenesa. the women are unrepentant. we're starving, they say. the u n h c r operations room puts all further convoys on hold. a few hundred demonstrators have halted an aid effort on which one and a half million depend. er last information i've got, still crowd of people blocking the road. but not for long. the bosnian police descend and apply the force which increasingly here is needed to secure delivery. first rifle rounds then tear gas. and only now can the convoy pass. the people of zenesa are selling anything they can to survive. enver says he's down to his last kilo of flour, otherwise his cupboard's empty. he doesn't know how he'll feed his nine year old son annis. i'm so desperate i'm even having to sell my clothes, he says. aid workers say central bosnia, cut off for the first time this winter by the war between croats and muslims, is facing a humanitarian catastrophe. the u n h c r says the aid effort it needs will be ten times greater than that mounted for sarajevo last year. alan little, b b c news, central bosnia. senior members of germany's ruling christian democrat party, are meeting to endorse chancellor kohl's choice of candidate for the next president. there's been mounting criticism of chancellor kohl's nomination of stephan heitmann, a conservative from east germany, because of his views on the holocaust, foreigners and the role of women in society. some german women are up in arms, no thank you, they say to going back to the role of mothers and home builders. these women in dresden think that could happen if an arch-conservative takes over as germany's head of state. that man is stephan heitmann, he's a little known politician from eastern germany. but chancellor kohl has hand picked him to be president despite bitter opposition including some in his own party. he's talking about er er that there're too many foreigners in our country. that gives water to the mills of the right wing radicals and the neo fascists party in germany and they right wing radicals have already voiced their support. stephan heitmann has stirred up a storm of protest for suggesting the germans should draw a line under history including the holocaust. mr heitmann says clearly germany's special role because of war guilt must end and after unification, the germans should take a new view of their nazi past. extreme right wing parties applaud mr heitmann's views and some fear that could fuel the alarming spate of attacks on foreigners. an arson attack by neo- nazis has destroyed one holocaust memorial and jews worry about the germans forgetting the lessons of the past. fifty years after er the end of second world war, it's too early to speak that this history shouldn't have any more influence on german politics. the polls show most germans don't want stephan heitmann as president and there's still stiff opposition within his own party, but chancellor kohl here in his own office is now meeting with other party leaders to put the final touches to the final nomination of stephan heitmann as president of germany. william horsley, b b c news, bonn. with four more british soccer sides battling it out in europe tonight, one club in particular will be trying to recapture its past glories. celtic are going through one of their worst times since winning the european cup in nineteen sixty seven. in debt and in the middle of a takeover battle, they're also looking for a new manager. celtic fans arriving at park head stadium this evening are hoping for a european victory over their portuguese guests in the manner of past glories. celtic's defeat of inter milan in nineteen sixty seven brought the european cup to britain for the first time. their success attracted a worldwide following as the lisbon lions and their successors dominated scottish football for more than a decade. in their centenary year of nineteen eight eight they won the league and cup double, but since then honours have been in short supply. and in a city where football demands tribal loyalties, that simply isn't good enough. i've been a celtic supporter for thirty five years, i've seen the good days and we're in the bad days. er now we're miles and miles behind rangers, on the park and off the park. the club's still fundamentally wrong. it's not been run in the right manner at all. the guys running the club don't really know what they're doing. while their old firm rivals rangers, have set new standards of footballing and business excellence, celtic have been starved of success, amassing debts of almost five million pounds. the recent departure of manager liam brady has also brought to a head a bitter boardroom battle which threatens to tear the club apart. rebel shareholders want to wrest control from a handful of family dynasties who've traditionally been in charge. the road that they have created i think is having a damaging effect on the team and is making it more difficult for us to get the results. victory over sporting lisbon and a successful signing of lou mccarie as new manager, will give the celtic directors breathing space to iron out their difficulties. but there are those who wonder whether celtic will ever again be the force they once were in british and european football. andrew castle, b b c news, park head. and tonight's main news again. british coal says it's re-opening its pit review programme. it means all thirty one pits earmarked for closure last year, may now shut after all. thousands of pensioners have protested in london over the government's plans for v a t on domestic fuel. and there are new measures to cut down police paperwork and put more officers on the streets. the next national news is the nine o'clock news but from jenny and from me, good evening. this week our guest on sharing time is erlend who is one of the survivors of the piper alpha disaster and is one who has come back to orkney this last week, staying with his family here in orkney. first of all, looking back on those harrowing times of the sixth of july, what do you remember about the incident erlend? well it was at night and i mean i was lucky enough to be working which is a thing that's probably accounted for saving a lot of people . most of the survivors were ones who were working at the time. and i was working upstairs in er what's called the gascon module, which was shut down at the time for repair work and things like that. and a call came over the radio that there was a problem with one of the pumps downstairs, so seeing i had nothing better to do at that time i went downstairs to give them a hand. which again is a part of the luck which probably saved me and er when i got down to the pump which was directly below where the explosion occurred, there was about three or four of us there and er as i said that the only indication that we got out it was a an enormous bang just directly overhead. and there was dust and everything went black, all the lights went out, so i mean from that w we could ascertain that it was fairly serious what had happened. and er we moved away to the side of the platform to get out from underneath whatever had happened and had a look around. there was nothing visible downstairs where we were, so immediately went up the stairs at the side to the production level where the blast had come from, and there we met a group of people who had just come out of the control room and they were cut and suffering from shock 'cos the blast had obviously well it d nearly blown the control room apart. i mean the doors were hanging on their hinges then, things like that. and by the time we got there we could see a fire round at the back of the the crane pedestal which was in b module where most of the oil separation plant is. and er at that stage we tried the fire hydrants but i mean there was no water in the pumps the electric pumps there was no ele electric power 'cos the elec electric er generator was blown to bits, well they weren't working anyway. and er the diesel pumps weren't on and er there was a couple of guys putting on breathing apparatus and trying to get in to restart them, but i mean by this stage the smoke was so thick they couldn't even find where the pumps were. you can hardly see your hand in front of your face and er i mean there was no way to fight the fire, so i mean all we could do was sort of stand back and look 'cos we were up there was about at that stage there was twenty or thirty of us standing in this north west corner of the platform. and er th the fire was getting that bad that i mean the smoke was blowing directly across the platform at that stage. and er take a couple of steps away from the corner you couldn't see your a thing, so we were more or less stuck where we where. we could go downstairs to the sixty eight foot level was er er fog horn and lighting system for in the fog it's a navaid system they call it. and er that was a platform down there. and off that there was a big knotted rope which c was thrown down. and er guys started to go down that to the twenty foot level where they were picked up by an inflatable off the standby boat. but i mean it was about twenty to thirty guys as i said. and i mean as they went down we got the the diver, so there was a few of them there. and er the ones out of the control room they managed to get down that stage we would be about half an hour after it, after the initial blast. and be about five or six of us left then, and we were just getting ready to get off when we got hit by the second big blast, which caused most of the burns to all of us then. and at that stage it was too late to go down the rope so it was just instinct more than anything else that we just jumped over the side from where we were then. and er after that it was just well every man for himself i never really saw any of the guys except for the o one guy who was on the platform with me at the time. i saw him when we got picked up off the i mean it was half a lifeboat we were left sitting on. when we got picked up and he was on it with me then. but i mean being in the water i had no life jacket or anything like that so it was a matter of trying to keep afloat and er kicking off my boots and getting me overalls . and er i mean it was all luck everything that sort of happened to me that night anyway i mean it it wasn't so lucky for other people but i suppose most survivors have their their tale or so. fortune having smiled on them, and i mean if it hadn't been for a lump of expanded foam out of one of the life boats that had blown up at, if it hadn't come floating past me, i mean i would have been a goner as well, but i got hold of that. i managed to keep afloat then till, as i said we found this half a lifeboat and there was couple of fellows and er i managed to swim over to that and pull myself up on it and for there the inflatable off the standby boat came alongside, picked us up and put us on then standby boat. at that stage then there was accounts of the sea almost being on fire with the oil and the mixture. what sort of experience how did you find that? well i never saw the sea on fire but f when we wen went into the sea i mean we were directly beneath the platform, and at that stage i mean the whole platform was on fire. and we couldn't you couldn't just swim on the surface because if you let any part of your body above the water for any length of time, i mean it just burnt. so i mean you had to sort of come up, and grab a breath, and go under the water and try and swim away from it. which in the sea was pretty futile really, i mean you just had to go where the sea took you. and luckily it just took us round the side of the platform and away then. were there quite a few vessels around at that time that were giving assistance? well i can remember when i went was in the water at the start, there was you could see a lot of boats coming in alongside the platform. but er it wasn't long after that there was another big bang on the platform and they all sort of turned tail and went away for their own safety. which was pretty demoralizing for us that were in the water at the time but so at that point then did you almost give up hope that you would be rescued? that you more or less were going to end in the sea at that point? aye, well i mean that there's there's so many things that go through your mind that in a situation like that. i mean you've got to try and keep yourself afloat, and then even that's not going to help you, if nobody comes along and picks you up either, so i mean that but i mean i i didn't oh well i suppose i could say i gave up hope a few times but obviously if you s the struggle to survive comes through in the long run, and i mean it's it's not easy to give up hope, at that stage when you were picked up then, what happened the, where were you taken to after that. well we were taken up to the standby boat which is i mean every vessel in the north sea, every rig and installation has a boat that circles it, non stop, twenty four hours a day and i mean that the standby boat on piper i mean it was the the two inflatable boats off it that picked everybody up, and most folk up, and one of them was lost, they lost two of the crew off that. i think that was hit by debris off the platform. but i mean it was it that we were taken to first, and i mean thee was a lot of people on it and i mean it had obviously saved a lot of lives. and er we were on that for about an hour or so and then they got rid of the the badly injured were taken off then and put on the therris it's support vessel that was just happened to be there at the time. and it and it's emergency hospital on it, and i mean they'd flown doctors out from aberdeen, and medics off other platforms round about. so you were actually were you taken to pharros as well? for treatment ? mhm. i was taken here but at the time i mean i wasn't one of the really seriously burnt, i mean i was still conscious and i was still walking around. and it was just me arm and me hand and me face that were were burnt and and at that the time i mean i wasn't in any pain and i think there was more serious ones to be dealt with. at that point then you were airlifted back to a hospital in aberdeen. aye. it were six five or six o'clock in the morning i think i arrived in aberdeen at six o'clock. to aberdeen royal infirmary where i were treated. yeah. and there'd been quite a number there, obviously in that burns unit, who were suffering from the same type of er injury. well i mean it's considering the number of s survivors, there wasn't that many that were burnt. i mean there were only been about at the most ten who were suffering from burns. maybe five or six that were quite serious one. i there was a couple that were really seriously badly burnt, and one of them didn't survive. when actually did you sustain your your burns, and you said that was actually on the second blast, aye that was well that that was on the platform when i got me face burnt and me left hand, which i think was burnt trying to protect me me head or face at the time. i don't know how me right hand survived it, i mean it's quite good. and er after that i think my right arm's got badly burnt. but i think that was when i was in the sea holding on to the bit of foam, and more or less just let myself float under the water, but me arm was round the top of the bit of foam, on the surface, and i think it got burnt by the the heat off the platform then. obviously you were in hospital for a number of weeks. what about the treatment that you were given in aberdeen? did you find that they were obviously sympathetic to what happened and the spirit in the hospital would have been quite hight really? aye. well i mean i can't say enough for the people in the aberdeen royal infirmary, i mean they've got a great burns unit there and i mean er er i think the plastic surgeons and what knot are about they must be some of the best in the world. just looking at what they've done to me. and er they treated me there i mean i was about two weeks in a room on me own, and taken out then into the main ward for another four weeks. and i mean the nurses and everybody, the doctors were really great, and they give us the best of treatment there, and i don't think you'll speak to anybody that was in the hospital that'll say anything differently, they were really great. obviously with that number of weeks that you were in hospital, it must have given you plenty of time too, to think about future prospects in a fairly dangerous industry in the north sea. what about your feelings now looking back on it? do you think that you would like to return to the platform work? aye well we've all spoken about it before and i mean yo when we were in hospital we spoke together about it and er obviously it's it's it's something you that won't really be able to tell unless you give it try. and i mean i would like to go offshore again, just to prove to myself whether i could or could not do it. i mean whether i'll ever work offshore again's another thing, but i would like to to try going offshore i mean then again i mean i reckon i could work offshore no problem at all, but whether i could sleep on the platform is a completely different matter. there would always be that fear that it a similar incident might happen and er and that er it was those who were asleep at the time who were unlucky enough not to survive. well they wasn't the most unlucky. to put it like that. but er i mean we we've spoken about it before, on the platform, and things like that, that i mean everybody knows the score that if something happens if you're if you're sleeping you've not got a an excellent chance, put it like that, i mean you er i mean nobody ever expected anything like what happened on piper to to happen any on that scale. i mean even wh when we saw it ourselves, i mean you couldn't comprehend the scale. i mean i can remember being underneath the platform,being on fire and i mean i i just kept saying to myself that this wasn't really happening. how about the the safety er precautions that were taken on board piper or in fact on board any oil platform installation. it wouldn't have been able to cope with such an immediate diaster as as happened on on that night. no i mean i i don't think what happened on piper can be put down to basic safety. i mean i don't think it was a gas leak, it wouldn't have caused an explosion to the extent of that. and at the time, i mean it's half past nine, all work had stopped, mostly at that time of night anyway. so i mean there was no poor operating but this is going on, i wouldn't have thought. so i mean it goes down to must be something like equipment failure which is something that nobody can really allow for. what sort of safety training had you had for an evacuation or in fact a a slow evacuation from the platform while you were out there? well i mean, everybody goes to robert does their off shore survival which takes you into helicopter survival and l launching lifeboats off the platform and life rafts ev and er that done i mean you get your certificates and what not for that and everybody is to get refresher courses every two or three years, i'm not really sure which. and then on the platform every week there's a evacuation drill where it's usually on a sunday night or a saturday night it was changed to recently. but the platform general alarm goes off and everybody goes to their master stations by the lifeboat. and then they test the evacuation alarm then, so that everybody knows the alarms and er where to be and then th every six eight weeks or something they take you for a helicopter evacuation where everybody's taken from the lifeboat master station. taken the whole way upstairs to the galley where they go through their er helicopter evacuation drill then. but er all of that was negated by the fact with the amount of fire and smoke that was on the platform, nobody could get to the lifeboats. and plus the fact that with the control room had been taken out nobody could sound the general evacuation alarms either, there was no alarms or anything or any warning for anybody on the platform either. and as you say at that stage it really was just a matter of erm every man for himself really. aye well that's it er i mean there was no, as i said there was no alarms for anybody else or anybody who wasn't there really wouldn't have a much of an idea to how drastic it was and what was going on at the time. as i said you can't envisage or set up emergency procedures for anything as as drastic as what happened there that night. i mean wh when your whole control room's wiped out and er you can't really expect anything like that. i mean un unless you make the control room blast proof, which is maybe a thing to be looked in to in the future and then again they're speaking about making the accommodation module separate from the platform itself which is another thing, but i mean that's all to be looked at. but whether you scrap all the platforms that are at present built in the north sea's another thing all together. there has been some criticism of general safety precautions on board rigs and platforms out on the north sea. do you have any general feelings about that, do you feel that things could be tightened up? i suppose there's always a room for safety procedures to be tightened up, i mean it's like in any place you work. everybody's completely happy with the procedures that that go on. but er, it's difficult it's difficult at sea. i mean from rig to rig things work differently and i mean on on piper, i would say there were probably things that could have been tightened up but then again i don't think they were part and parcel of what happened and there on july the sixth. the government has now said that they're going to order oil companies to install shut off valves below platforms. do you feel that that would have solved the situation on piper alpha altogether or how far would it have gone to perhaps lessening the the blow of the the occasion? it's hard hard to say how much that would have helped the situation out there i mean it definitely would have helped in some degree, but i mean there was still all the oil that was present on the platform in the separators except those which were left under pressure all that would have had to burn. and er as i've said before, i haven't seen a a barrel of oil burning and the heat and smoke that comes off that you consider the amount of oil that would have been in the separators on the platform at the time, i think it would have still have caused an awful lot of heat and an awful lot of smoke and fire, and er just shutting off the oil coming back to the platform maybe wouldn't have helped that much. but i mean a any anything in a situation like that's going to help. again, with the time that you were in hospital considering your future, what did your family think about your possibility of you going back out? well i mean they've never really spoken about it one way or another, encouraged me or discouraged me, which i think i'm grateful for. i mean if there's a decision to be made i hope they'll just leave it up to me. i think that and i mean you go with the sort of attitude, that lightning will never strike twice in the same place, but then again i mean who knows? clearly it was a time when so many people were lost, and it was the world's worst oil rig disaster. looking back on that then, you must have lost a great number of colleagues and workmates that it must give you sort of mixed feelings looking back on it? well it does, i mean it's it's i mean i've been there about just over three years, three and a half years. i mean when you're working for a week at a time with the same blokes week in week out i mean you get to know them really well. it is difficult to to come to terms with the fact that i mean it's people that you've worked with for a week, at a time and i mean for three and a half years every second week you're working with that guys in a confined space, you get to know them really well. and i mean it is your sort of second home, and the guys that you work with every every week, i mean sort of become, i mean it's a bit of a cliche to say, but i mean part of a family that you living out there that you live with out there and it is a real i mean when you think of the number that was lost, i mean there were a lot of close friends involved in it. obviously having such a a close brush with death is something that you you've you've obviously lived through and be something that er you must feel strongly about. do you feel that this particular incident has changed your attitude towards life? i can't honestly say that up to now i've thought that much about it. i mean i've only just come out of hospital and as it is i'm still fairly well macked with it. and you think that you're lucky to be alive in that respect, but i've never really thought that i was specially picked out for some reason to carry on living. but then again in the future it might sink in that that there was a special reason for it, i don't know. obviously with so many having lost their lives on the disaster, you say that you don't feel it's maybe an act of god int hat sense, that you were picked to to be saved, but erm you don't feel any guilt as such either,o that you were one of the ones and er so many others had been lost? no i don't feel guilty, i mean i would i would love to see everybody that was on the platform still alive. but then again i think i would i would be lying if i said that, i wish it was me rather than anybody else . but no i mean i i mean i've lost a lot of good friends on it, and i would love to see them back alive but, there's nothing much i can do about it. very shortly after the incident an appeal fund was set up and money poured in to that from various sources including the oil companies themselves. what's your reaction to that sort of appeal fund? don't you think that perhaps it might have been better for the oil companies to have perhaps done more at an earlier stage, in the the safety side of things? or how about the the questions about an an appeal for for the victims and er relatives of the disaster? well i personally think with an appeal fund like that, i mean the amount of money that's gone into it is ridiculous considering the amount of compensation that everybody's going to get or hopes to get after it. i mean the only thing that an appeal fund like that should do is to give the widows and dependents of the the dead of the platform, it should give them immediate money to tide them over until they get their compensation which they need. and er the amount of money that's in the appeal fund, whereas it shows a great feeling of warmth from the general public, i think i don't i mean there's people dying all over the world, even at home here in orkney, there's people that dying, they don't receive any great compensation for that. and i mean i think that if it was spread more i mean if if if people locally gave more to to bereaved in their own areas, i mean it would go down a lot more good there. i said that the occidental are gonna they'll either willingly pay or they're going have to pay a lot of compensation to the bereaved and er fund more or less just going to top up any money when it's probably not going to be necessary in the long run. at this stage then having spent so many weeks in hospital, how long will you be required to continue further visits to you know,up update the treatment? well i mean i i think the grafts that they've done, the major grafts anyway, are finished and er they seemed to have taken really well, so i mean it's just a matter of time, really, for them to settle. and i mean they say with skin grafts it takes two years before they're completely settled and accepted. and er i've got to go back next week for a sort of check up and i mean i suppose that'll continue for weeks to come. but er it's just a matter of time now for the discolouration to fade a bit, and things like that, that's mainly the worst that's left. so in sense then that er the extent of your injuries really would not debar you from working offshore as far as you understand? i've never really asked the extent the limitations of the injuries that i've got. i mean i'm going on the on the opinion that full function'll come back and i'll be able to do any work that i was doing before, and there'll be no change at all. the only problem is with er the skin grafts and that. they say that i mean any changes any in temperature are very noticeable so w like it is working in the middle of winter offshore would be something i would have to come to terms with but no i mean i don't think there's any problems work-wise. i would hope not anyway. clearly it has been a an extremely trying time for you. how have people reacted and responded to your treatment and really erm how they feel about things now? well in hospital, i mean the number of cards and get well cards and well good wishes i received, and offers of help from people. i mean there's people i hadn't even seen for years that were staying there in aberdeen came along and offered help. and everybody that sent cards, i mean it was really great i mean get well cards are sort of things that you see in shops and you never really think about it, but when when you're lying flat on your back in hospital and you get cards for people, i mean it really does give you a lift. and i mean i can't thank the people enough that sent them all. and i mean there are too many to to name individually as well. but i mean it's it er it was great i mean the fact that i was i mean in in aberdeen i was away from home, i mean you didn't even notice it, because of the number of orcadians that popped in by the hospital and as i said sent cards and letters, it was great. well thank you very much erlend , for sharing time with us this thursday lunchtime, and we'll wish you a very speedy recovery and hope it won't be too long, in fact, before you're back at work. thank you. tonight live, the happiness pill, the terrorist godfathers and circuses. are they right to use domestic cats? roll up, roll up, it's central weekend. good evening, welcome to central weekend and to our audience, they come from ludlow. welcome. we start tonight with a big row that's brewing over this little pill. it's new and it's given to people who feel depressed. your doctor prescribes it as prozac but it's already earned the nickname the happiness pill, but is it safe? oliver what's so wonderful about prozac as an antidepressant? well it doesn't actually make less people depressed that its predecessors, the great thing about it is is that it only only one quarter of the people who take it get side effects. so the old tricyclic antidepressants make you know most people get a lot of side effects. the second this about it, it's certainly not addictive in any way, it's not like the barbiturates valium and so on. it's er you know it's completely okay to take and stop taking it, and you won't want to have to go on. and the third thing is that about twenty to thirty per cent of people who take it undergo a dramatic transformation in their personality, it seems, so it's claimed in america and there's a lot of evidence that might be true, erm and that is you know a huge difference from er just an ordinary antidepressant. so who's it really for, who's gonna m get the most benefit out of it? well it's it works best with people who =r mildly depressed in fact,l less so with very severely depressed people, but that is the great majority of people, one in three women with children under the age of five are depressed, for example, so it's a huge advantage for them to be able to take it and not have side effects. dr vernon , is this the way to make depressed people happy? have the drug companies at last come up with something approaching a m little miracle? it's a load o crap. the i feel as if i'm in a time war, i really do. twenty years ago i was on programmes li , was central weekend on twenty years ago, i don't , twenty years ago feels like it i was on, sorry? feels like it well twenty years ago i was on programmes like this, saying that doctors who said that valium and the other tranquillizers were perfectly safe were talking rubbish and that there was every possibility that there would be problems found in the future, if we kept prescribing these drugs for vast numbers of people. and now here we are again with yet another wonder miracle drug, which they say has got no side effects and which is wonderful and is gonna make all these people really happy no we said a quarter of people who take it get side effects. let me tell y er have you seen what's it got to do with valium. what's it got to do with valium at all? it's got a lot to do with valium because it's being what? given to very similar people for a start, it's being prescribed in huge quantities no let me finish valium's given for anxiety and neurosis. you asked me a question. it's being it is being prescribed t for huge numbers of people, it's being promoted as a very safe drug, it's a very profitable drug, and we already know that it causes a very large number of quite serious side effects. i have in front of me a copy of the data sheet produced by the company which makes it, which was incidentally the same company which made opran, do you remember opran which was withdrawn from the market, it's just what's this got to do wi it's got nothing to do with opran. got an enormous amount to do with opran because you don't seem to understand the way the drug companies work. they put a drug on the market and they say that it's wonderful and that the side effects are irrelevant and very slight and that everybody's gonna be very happy and it's a new wonder drug and it'll change the world and isn't that marvellous. then a few years later when the problems develop they say, oh god we're terribly sorry, we'll take the drug off the market. let me be six million people in the world are taking this drug saying it's really really helping them and you're telling them it's crap. i'm d let me just tell you some of the side effects which the company making it admit to . now what do you say to those six million people ? look no let me just tell you what the mm. side effects are. what i would tell them was, these are the side effects, they should be aware of this. no there are the side effects are only a quarter of people have those the company's, you don't want me to say the side effects do you? side effects. only a quarter of people. do you accept that fact that it's only a quarter of people ? i no no i don't for a start accept it. so you deny all the studies that prove that no. conclusively? and what i'm saying is that do you deny those studies? what i'm saying is that y i probably do deny those studies. but what i am saying is that the that the side yeah, yes, no, very, look hold on effects would not be known, would not be known for a considerable period of time. le let me bring in dr c er vernon let me bring in dr cosmo here, vernon. no l hang on a minute let me no i i i just want to move it around a bit vernon . nobody's denying these are im these are important and we should talk about the side effects that are associated . we will we will we will i have we will. dr cosmo . nobody nobody denies that prozac has side effects. what the it has less side effects than other treatments. what i emerges is depression is a common condition which is under-diagnosed and under-treated. one in eight people who are seriously depressed er end up killing themselves by suicide. about ten people a day kill themselves by suicide, maybe maybe one in a thousand people who take prozac get bad reactions to it, but that has to be seen in balance, in the balance of a large number of people deriving a lot of benefit and maybe a few people having some bad reactions. donna , you took it, what happened? yeah, well let me just say first, i'm an agony aunt, a medical journalist, i've got a psychology degree, i've written health books, and as a punter i took prozac by accident. i suffered what erm is known from as postnatal depression after i had my second baby. and i fought it for a long time and i wanted to get kick-started back to where i was before, because i felt under a cloud. well i went and i had a different drug from prozac, i had something which is actually newer and er which one? zeroxac. right. okay which was fine. but let's let's not kid ourselves audience. these are drugs, these are mind-altering drugs, every drug is a poison and every drug is a poison and every drug is a trade-off. you do not get something for nothing in this world and they know this. and people who have vested interests in drug companies are gonna tell you different. let me tell you what happened to me. i went on zeroxac, and there are side effects when you start, while you get used to the dosage okay. in my case i was very drowsy, i got constipated, they don't tell you very much about this, they play it down. once i took the drug i was okay to a certain extent. okay now this prozac's in the same group of substances as the one i took and i was willing to do a slight trade-off here. okay what happened was, i had no emotional reactions to anything, i wanted to cry at something on t v, i couldn't any more, i couldn't cry. i g well i'll tell you later about what else happened to me isn't aren't those symptoms of depression rather than actually the drug? listen let me finish. i went back to my doctor after two months and said well i feel a bit better, can i a few more months. okay fine, he then gave me, i didn't know, i was on prozac for a month. now he s he thought he was giving me the same stuff, i didn't know what i was on, all i knew was i felt twice as bad. i went home and i st i got very very anxious, i started feeling suicidal, i was blubbering at everything on the television, now i could cry but i was crying too much. i went back to my doctor and said, what have you given me? this is not the same drug. oh yes it is they're medically quite similar. what is it? it was prozac. well y you know,th the evidence is overwhelming that these drugs are actually good for depression, that they lift the symptoms, that they reduce suicidal fifteen per cent have got suicidal on it, that's too high i'm sorry fifteen per cent of of depressed people commit suicide, not fifteen per cent of people who take prozac get suicidal. the evidence is fifteen per cent, the latest research says the evidence is just against that you know the evidence is totally contrary to that . no this is not true. let me ask you donna why why you carried on taking it? oh no i came off of it. i i had a month's prescription, i came off of it. i went back on the c on it. i went off of it, and th and then i was okay after that. how did it make you feel? i was suicidal, one day i'd been on top of the world yeah and i could take on anything then the next day i'd be trying to kill myself . then why did you take the drug then? why did you why didn't you stop taking it? because you trust your doctor . because it was making me so bad. doctor prescribed it and we trust the g ps for . then why do you go to your g p ? i've heard all this tripe about and there were tested on prisoners. in the u s and she can verify that . this was this was exactly what we were saying why do you go to your g ps? okay okay let's let's what's the matter with you people, don't you listen to the patients any more? let me talk to a g p down here , dr stephen . i'm concerned because there have been accusations by mix m mr , he's actually erased from the register. he's not a prac no i'm not erased from the register at all, that's a lie. he's not a practising er physician that is a lie actually i think we ought to get this straight okay listen before we go on medical register therefore you can't call yourself doctor. now listen we've got two conversations going at once here, why are you called doctor, vernon? i've got a doctorate of science and i've got a medical degree from birmingham university. but you're not on the medical register. no i'm not on the medical register for a very simple reason which i'm happy to explain to i'm very concerned that he made the accusation that the drug companies simply put these drugs on the market. now prozac is one of the highest used drugs in the states. and the states are second to none in drug testing. the food and drugs administration really are absolutely . now you're always making a balance in developing drugs and i have nothing to do with the drug industry, i'm a g p, you have a balance between trying to move things forward to get people better and on the other hand making sure that you're not going to do them any great harm. any new drug in britain is, every year the g p who's prescribing that for you gets a letter from a centre down in southampton to ask if there've been any adverse reactions. so we monitor as carefully as we can. yes there are the food and drug administration the food and drug administration condones tampering of scientific data in the pre-release trials by , we have the documentation on that, which has been a obtained under the freedom o of information act. yes. it condones it. they they w s they withheld and suppressed evidence of suicides occurring during the pre-release trials. yes gr this is gr just let me introduce you to graeme . you are with the citizen's commission on human rights. now what that's right. is it that you have got so strongly against this drug? what we have so strongly on this is that there are now over twenty eight thousand mm. adverse reaction reports on the drug. mm. yeah and that's that's ten times higher th that's higher yeah than any other drug in history. it's ten times higher than the r reactions on halcyon, of those reactions thirteen hundred, there were thirteen hundred relate to deaths of the users, and that's just too high a price to pay . so is it is it too no no we've got to come back here, is this too high a price to pay? yeah i feel very sorry for the people who've had bad reactions from prozac about they've died there's thirteen hundred hang on a second let him answer. let him answer. i feel very sorry for the people living who are here can i just say vernon adverse reactions. th about a quarter of people do unfortunately and they have to stop taking it. er c coming to this point, there is abundant evidence that er say two thousand for example, two thousand prozac takers were compared with er two thousand takers of the old tricyclics compared with people on a placebo, and i'm sorry there is no increased probability of committing suicide. people who are depressed generally are prone to committing suicide. they're also co prone to commit violence. i wasn't. no listen listen, i'm gonna i'm gonna talk to someone here who's probably er only here because you're on prozac, aren't you ? that's right yes. peter, you you take prozac? i take prozac . why? erm completely disabling anxiety and depression that is moderate but persistent. and it needed something to break that cycle. and prozac did the trick for me, erm it won't work for everybody, it's not a happiness pill, it just restores you to to some sort of normality. you you've been taking it for how long? i've been taking it continuously for two years, and i want to stress that i've been taking eighty milligrams a day, that's a lot . that was the dose,a and i want to stress also that i didn't start off at eighty milligrams, i started off at two and half which i think is important and any side effects? there was there was no side effects. erm ma what ma what ma what difference has it made to your life peter? comp completely, i mean i'm sat here in a live television studio with a girlfriend on my hand, i was housebound, erm just no interest in my hobbies, no energy, erm peter well i'm glad you're here. now listen, listen donna, donna, donna wait a minute, donna listen. this is obviously of real help to a lot of people even if it doesn't help everybody. you can't throw the baby out with the bath water, no. you can't frighten people off it, when it is being of real help to people like peter . no it's now he was severely depressed. it's interesting cos you said it helps people with mild depression . no, no. no he didn't actually and persistent right persistent and moderate depression. okay bu yes now i'm not arguing that for some depressed people it's there's always side effects of some kind, okay, peter, i wanted to ask you a very personal question. well he just told you he didn't have any side effects . are you denying this man's right to tell you what he believes is true ? now wait a minute. have you ever been on proz have you ever been on prozac oliver? no. alright. well you won't be able to orgasm on it, okay?sexuality but i'm asking you to address his point. you've just told this man you've just told this man that he his experience is invalid. you said to him that there's no no i didn't. i such thing as a pill without side effects, he just said he had no side effects. to to introduce to introduce one or two patients who ar who are happy with the drug is is irrelevant as you should know exactly. because people took thalidomide and were very happy with it, people took opran and were very happy with it, people took valium and were very happy with it . take penicillin and die of it because they have an allergic reaction. even more people have died of overdoses of aspirin than any other drug in the world. we didn't ban those . let let me tell you about the damned side effects of this drug, because people are entitled to know what they . listen i've got, vernon i i've got some people who have had the side effects. let me interview them because there's nothing like a human story okay, bye, okay, i'll go home a personal face of this whole thing, i i ought to say that we did ask the drug company to send some along or er and they said no er but strange but they but they we have got a man here who is the first in this country, mr to sue them. erm you took prozac that's correct. erm, what kind of person were you before, apart from a bit depressed? person i wouldn't bother anybody, and it changed my entire personality. it changed it so much that you co committed an offence that ended you up in in prison. in prison for, well you got a three year sentence prison sentence but you didn't serve it all. erm you took a gun to your girlfriend's house, yes. you handcuffed her son to his bed bed you were very violent in your behaviour ? where did you get the gun from? say again. where did you get the gun from? i collect weapons. why, why do you put that down to prozac? because it was something that was totally out of character. my general behaviour changed completely after i was given prozac. i was taken into the, my wife died in january of nineteen eighty nine, i was taken into the local psychiatric hospital at in the december of nineteen eighty nine and i was told i was gonna be given an experimental drug, i was told nothing about it or any anything to do with any of the side effects,i i was in th i was on prozac for about four days, i suffered horrendous side effects, shaking and one thing and another. why didn't you refuse it? you didn't have to take it. well as far as i was concerned, i was doing what a doctor told me. these bunch of clowns pick your gun up and go and shoot . you're talking from a point of view of where? well i work in this field and you can refuse that that medication unless you're under you don't expect a doctor to give you drugs that are gonna drive you mad. if you're an informal patient you can refuse that medication. psychiatric hospitals, there must have been something wrong with you. it's hard enough to get into if you're crazy. yes, go on. one of things on this drug is that we have many cases documented on this where people don't realize the incredible grotesque feelings they have of mutilating themselves et cetera are actually connected to the drug. and it's only when they see publicity of the drug that they actually realize i tried to kill myself twice in the space of ten days, i suffered horrendous hallucinations people do you know. government initiative to reduce the incidence of suicide by er is it er five per cent over the next years because so many are you saying there's no connection between the drug depressed people do kill themselves. that's just rubbish. it is. and one of the key ways of stopping people killing themselves would be to change from the old antidepressants onto the more modern safer ones which a are easier to take, less likely to make you kill yourself, and er let let me introduce you to a nurse, a nurse called nicola. nicola nicola doesn't want to be identified. er nicola had a baby, she suffered from postnatal depression and er can i ask for a bit of hush there please, nicola suffered from postnatal depression and she took prozac. nicola, you suffered some of the side effects that we've been hearing about tonight, and then things got really bad. how bad did they get? i was only on the drug for seven days and by the seventh day, i'd suddenly turned into some sort of maniac. i became incredibly vi er i had violent feelings erm, i wanted to go out on the street and rampage. if i'd had a gun i would have gone out and shoo shot out the whole neighbourhood. erm and really the only way i thought that i could prevent myself from doing anything like that was to kill myself in a very violent way because i n was so incensed, the way i felt. nicola i i mean i i totally take your story on board but you are a nurse yeah. and yo yo you understand about refusing medication. yeah. why did you carry on taking it? erm, i hadn't actually felt that violent, i'd been having extremes of emotion all week erm, very high, very low, very very fearful, panic attacks which i'd never had before in my life. did you associate with prozac? i did yes. and i finally went back to my g p on the seventh day which was a saturday in the morning, and he told me to carry on taking the drug. and within a few hours of taking it, that's when this happened to me. when i just felt that i was on the absolute fringe of going berserk. and i could have killed anybody. it wouldn't have mattered who, it could've been family, friends, neighbourhood, anybody. if i'd had a gun i would have done it. listen, i can't go further into your story now, thank goodness it all ended happily and you got some yeah. instant help. isn't this is an extraordinary situation,n here is a nurse, a a you know a a kind caring woman, she takes a drug and yet she must be of all people the one person to say, i'm having a side effect. yes that's true. and yet she still believes her doctor. just like all of us do, still trusts him, well i still takes it. i really do think that one of the things that i'm unhappy about this evening is that people are concerned that our profession isn't caring. i take on a board all the comments that are made here, i i think they do need investigation. what one doesn't know is what's due to the disease and what's due to the drug. what i do know is that there are thousands and thousands of people out there for whom life is intolerable, roughly ten a day actually succeed in killing themselves, how many more have a go we don't know . sue, can i, i need to ask him a question. a very important question. is it that g ps don't read the literature that comes with the drugs. i wanna know why g ps don't inform their patients about what to expect well because i'll tell you what, i came off cold turkey, and i had the worst three days of my whole life. i had all my symptoms condensed into a horrendous anxiety, my head mm, mm was spinning, i thought i was gonna jump off the roof, i rang my g p and said, you never told me i had to decrease this dose, hang on just get through the weekend, he never told me what to expect,an i i feel like suing him. we, we i i've just been told i've just been told that our entire switchboard is totally lit up. one person has had bad side effects, the rest of our callers think it's wonderful. but can i just answer that because hopefully we do we do try to listen and we try to give you what information you're capable of taking at the time. if you're in a very distressed state you can't take . fortunately now, the drugs have to be packaged with an information leaflet so that you keep looking at it again and again and again . okay,gentle gentleman at the back there, he's got his hand up . to read it. hang on donna. yeah, this drug could've been developed and refined and er gone into a lot further, but they didn't. and the reason why they didn't is because the losses at the moment are acceptable. profitability, that's what it's all down to. before before i come back to you cosmo, before i come back to you i want to talk to nicola. you wanted to say something nicola. yes i just wanted to say that, can i just say that within about three days of coming off the drug, all my symptoms of feeling violent, murderous, suicidal completely disappeared and they've never come back since, and all i've had since then is a dose of vitamin b six every day. so th you are in no doubt that that's was no doubt at all. wh w when testing a new drug, you're trading off th th the the level of testing you can do, it takes about a hundred millions pounds to produce a new drug, it takes about ten years from test tube to getting a licence. so you can test it more thoroughly but in that case, a you put the costs up and b it takes longer before it gets actually, before patients get the benefits of it. so the big argument at present about th for example in other medications is that people are being treatment . okay vernon. the the the quality of drug company testing is abysmal. much of the e well hang on a moment. hang on a it fulfils regulations both the f d a you know. never mind the regulations is it good enough? the the quality of testing by drug companies is appalling. one in six patients in hospital in britain are there because they've been made ill by doctors. one in six. that's that is a frightening statistic. forty per cent of the people who take drugs suffer serious, sometimes lethal side effects. there are several quite simple explanations for this that's why you need newer and safer drugs. would you mind shutting up for a minute, no i'm fed up of okay these bloody apologies for drug companies, have you ever worked for a drug company? i d have you ever received money from a drug company ? yes of course i have. you have? what do you mean yes of course i have, you have received money from a drug company . yes i know about the drug industry. how much? he knows about i know about the drug industry, i do clinical trials, i do research for them . you d so you work for drug companies? yes of course i do. so what the fucking hell are you doing here apologizing for apologizing for a drug . completely uncalled for vernon, completely uncalled for. you take it. take it and come back here and let's see what you're like. and you take it. as well. i don't have to. you take the drug and see how you are . i have taken eight. you've taken it? that's fine. i've taken eight antidepressants over the last ten years, prozac hasn't been one of them i must admit . now listen, this is an interesting point, you've taken eight, and cosmo people, people, and obviously she's had a lot of bad experiences we can't go into now, but people, people don't trust the drug companies because of all this long history and experiences . effect. here we have someone shouting at us about the bad effects of the prozac, they then tell us that haven't taken them. now i've seen a lot of people who complain about taking drugs and the side effects they get, when you analyze it, you first of all find they haven't taken it, or they've taken five other drugs at the same time now listen answer the question i asked you, answer the question i asked you, she has taken a lot of drugs in the past, not prozac. yes. but because of the bad experiences, when the drug companies have said for years, trust us, we've researched it, we've developed it, you know it's it passed the f d a rules, and then there's atavan and valium and all the things that we had halcyon and there's a horror story at the end of the day. and now you have prozac, why should we believe them this time? well i think the drug industry and i don't represent them, but i think the drug industry but you got money from them. well you know have you have you done any work for this company ? vernon, vernon i want the answer to this one. no i've never done any work for . you've never done any work on this particular product? why should we trust them this time? i think thirty years down the line, valium was developed in nineteen sixty one. now we've had all the bad news. w w we're still having bad news but now we that's right learnt, we hope that we learn as we go along and that the same mistakes don't get made again. but a twenty years ago, twenty years ago falsify the testing results, i have that documentation this here, this here is thirteen hundred, the list is thirteen hundred deaths, thirteen hundred deaths due to prozac. we're sitting in this room and we're hearing a lot of people who've had bad experiences with prozac and other drugs. twenty five per cent of people who take the drug have bad effects. that's a lot the drug companies say that. i'm terribly sorry madam, i'm terribly sorry madam, you might die if you take this drug nobody's who's died has ever been depressed after they've taken listen vernon, vernon has ever been killed by prozac, and you know it vernon . the the drug company says okay i'm gonna go back relationship between okay dr , dr . hush i'm very very concerned that we don't the . the th there may be an argument, and i don't know the details of what's being said here, and i certainly would not defend any sort of the highest level of enquiry. but if one sixth of patients are in hospital as a result of what we've done wrong, five sixths are there because we haven't managed to stop them being there. so don't let's forget that. don't let's just say drugs are bad, because for every one that has a bad time, and some people have a terrible time, you say some people die, i accept that. okay. but a lot of people come out feeling a hell of a lot better. okay, i would like to thank everybody on this item who has taken part in the responsible bits of the debate. thank you all very much. i know but erm if i don't see i'm gonna crack. ah. right. organize you for doing that scan. mhm. see what's going on. that's the results about ten minutes ago, an hour ago. yeah. and that's clear as well. so there's obviously something not right, doctor . aye there's something wrong. working right. where will i go for the scan? er i don't know. i need to phone down, see if they've got a time for you today. mhm.. you still ? aye.. do your loft up. we can, it's alright up there. i've got an auntie that lives up there. and she hates it. she wants to go back to . i don't to be quite honest i don't think there's anything left of . she doesn't like it in that new place . no no. and she's getting the nurses up. is she giving them a hard time? giving them a hard time down there. is she? aha. who's that? my aunty peggy . my dad's sister. i was in there once but she just went after he daughter. her daughter died of cancer and then a year later her oh right. husband died of cancer and she just . now even if i'm only weeks pregnant this'll show? aye? if you're weeks pregnant, that would have shown. it would have shown? aye. oh aye. so i'm definitely not pregnant? definitely not pregnant. my body's just dying. . you mean i'm not heading for the end of me. four weeks, would have shown up on that. was it may you changed my pill wasn't it? mhm. aye i mean it might be that there could be something as simple as that that's mhm. doing it. could be something as simple as that. sixty two. right. now it was marvelon and i put you on to no it wasn't marvelon it was that trin trin aye. trinordiol. mhm. trinordiol. and now it's norimin. so it could it might just be that that's causing the problem. but we'll get you checked out. now see if we get whether i can get us fitted in. mm right. might manage it today. mm. margaret, they couldn't give me on just now. mhm. can we phone you this afternoon aye. as long as we've got your phone number. mhm. should i take that with me? brought this back. you hold on to that. right. right. er and we've got your new phone number. aye. got that. and we'll give you a phone as soon as they get back to us. and if they can do it this afternoon or tomorrow morning, aye. we'll let you know right away. it shouldn't be too long? it should oh no it shouldn't be hopefully within . i know. yeah. right thanks. right cheerio now. yes. well i was born, born at in nineteen eleven. so it's quite a long while ago and i've travelled round quite a bit since then. my father was a methodist minister. so we moved round every three or at the most four years, and er we we've been up in scotland and er yorkshire, lancashire, and down east anglia. and er it wasn't until he came up to a, er in the skegness circuit when i was eighteen that's when i started nursing. and erm i ca i came to in the first place because it was the best teaching hospital in the midlands at that time. and er it was near home as well so i, i should be able to get home for days off. that was the, the main thing. oh was that, that was nice. erm could you tell me about your father being a methodist minister? he was, was he just moved on from time to time, or were they voluntary moves? no er in the methodist er ci circuits they move them on, they're, they're invited for three years. least they were at that time. and then at the end of the three years you were either invited to stay an, an extra year or s you were, you were sort of er you had an invitation from some other circuit. to go there. they used to send the stewards round and er you you'd suddenly see two new people in the congregation and they'd come to hear the minister preach to see if he was a good preacher and then they'd go back to report. a and then he would either have an official invitation or should hear no more about it . but that was very difficult from th the children's point of view. there were, there were two erm boarding schools for methodist ministers' children. there was for boys and for girls. er and you could go to a boarding school but if you didn't you were moved round every three or four years at the most to a different school. er and my brother went to a boarding school but i didn't. and i've, it was always a big handicap because the syllabuses at different schools were different. you'd go to a school where they'd been doing french or latin for two or three years and you hadn't done any at all. it was very very difficult. so i, i can't really say my school days were the happiest days, they certainly weren't. mm. was there any reason why your brother was sent to a boarding school but you weren't? well not really. boys in those days they were always given the best education. girls it wasn't nearly so important that they should be er er an and also i, i don't think my parents thought i was really worth educating . they didn't think i was very bright or very brainy. i was a very er quiet child and er very little self confidence. i think that was a lot of it. and they didn't expect very much of me from my school reports and i thought, well if they didn't expect i you know i wasn't capable of it. and it wasn't really until i left school and er went into nursing that i thought, now this is something i'm starting on ev even with everybody else. er and something i really wanted to do, and really enjoyed. th that's where i, i really started in and sort of showed what i was made of. i could come out top in my exams then when i never did at school, i never did anything much at school at all. do you think this was er special to your family that you were treated as you weren't a brainy one or do you think that was the way girls were generally treated? i, i think it was largely the way most girls were treated. th you know it was just the sort of it, it all changed after the first world war and completely changed after the second world war. before then you, you were sort of, you were a girl. you stayed at home and helped in the home until you were old enough. then you got married then and that was sort of the sum total of it. and it wasn't really until after the first world war when things really sort of er got started and er women sort of carried on and, and they do take jobs and occupations er that they sort of really came into their own. and certainly during the second world war where they kept things going an and could prove that they were as good as any man . but even until ooh when, i, i can remember my daughter when she er was going to university. there were certain subjects that they said, keep off, because it doesn't matter how clever you are. it doesn't matter how good a degree you get. it will go for nothing. if a man applies and he, even if he hasn't got as good qualifications as y as you've got, you won't have a, stand an earthly. the man will always get the job. well that has changed a lot now and i think it i it, it is a good thing as well. do you think you were conscious as a child at the difference between the way your brother was treated and the way yourself? no. i think i just accepted it. he was younger than i was. er he was a delicate baby and i was always the sturdy one and i was always expected to give in to him and sort of coddle him an an he, he, he was always sort of put first. i never minded at all. no. it didn't bother me. i think most people were the same in those days. did you have to help around the house when you were a child? not a great deal. we, we were expected, we did, we were expected to keep our own rooms tidy. and make our own beds but not, not a great deal. you see in those days i people i servants were so you could get servants so easily ev even if you didn't have somebody living in er you, you'd have a daily person. they saw to all the washing up. er and that sort of thing. but no we weren't expected to do a lot in the house. mm. so did you generally have a, a daily lady to come and help or yes. we did. when we were about nine and ten and a half we had somebody living in because there were an awful lot of evening meetings that my father had to go to and usually mother went with him. which meant we'd always got somebody in the house, sort of baby-sitting really. that, that's her main, she used to sort of look after things and baby-sit for us in the evenings. ha have you got any particular memories of your earliest childhood? not a great deal. i, i can remember we were at in lancashire. that was during the first world war, i should be i suppose about five then. er we er my father was chaplain to a big military hospital there. and it was always sort of open house and the nurses used to come in when they were off duty a lot. and oh the, the soldiers, the wounded soldiers, they used to come as well. you could always tell who they were. they had sort of er er rather pretty blue er suits they used to wear with white shirts and red ties. you could always tell they were, they were er they'd been wounded and, and they were i in hospital by their dress. and they used to come in a lot. an and i think of course we were made quite a fuss of too. er and i, i don't know whether that was where i got my first idea of being a nurse. i never wanted to be anything else but a nurse. it was the one thing i always wanted to do. i never wanted to do anything, it never entered my head to do anything else. er so whether i unconsciously got it from there, i, i don't really know, i may have done. yes. were there any other family infu influences at all in this line? i know on your wall here you, you have a lovely portrait of your grandfather and grandmother. yes, yes. th they influenced my life a, a lot. my mother died when i'd be about eleven. and er course summer holidays we always used to go and spend them with granny and granddad. they had retired and they lived down at lowestoft so it was a lovely place to go for summer holidays. and we always used to go there. er and they did, they influenced, they influenced er me a lot, a lot really and i suppose they did my brother as well. but er we, we could always ask granddad if we wanted to know anything. how babies were born or, or anything. we always go and ask granddad. and he'd never tell us, he, he'd never, he'd always tell us as much as he thought we could accept. he was very modern really for his age,fo for er the time he lived in really. cos in those days they didn't. i mean it just wasn't talked about. you, you, you, you, girls used to get married in those days, and they were extremely innocent, they'd really no idea at all. and yo when i look back an and er and think of even when i first started nursing a lot of the girls we used to get in, they thought if they kissed a man they were going to have a baby. they were very innocent. but er things have changed a lot these days . yes. what kind of job did your grandfather do? ah he was a, he was a headmaster at a methodist school at in yorkshire. and er he'd worked his way up as a teacher, then he, he was a headmaster. and even then i, i would have sa thought he, he was very up to date. he used to have very definite ideas of, of er how to treat children. i don't know whether the psychiatrists would have agreed with him. but i know i could remember being taken round his school and in the main hall he'd got a glass fronted cupboard, and he'd got all sorts of well really and truly they were just pretty pebbles. i don't think they were anything much more than that. but they were all for certain things and i, i, i remember one er was for anybody who stuttered. and he'd got a boy who did stutter and he always used to go to granddad before er he when he came to school, before lessons and he'd give him this pebble and he'd say, now you can put it in your pocket. but always hold it, keep it and if you're holding that stone you won't stutter. and he didn't. and he got so he could gradually do without it and he never stuttered again. most amazing thing . did he probably, you know, lack of self confidence or something like that. but it did the trick. yes. did he have other pebbles er which had other cures? was this what the pebbles were for? he may have done. i really don't know, but i do remember that one. i remember him telling me about that, that stone. mm. you said that your grandmother played quite a part in your upbringing after your mother died. yes, yes. well she taught me to knit and she taught me to do a lot of embroidery and that sort of thing. she did certainly influence me in, in that way. but erm i still do, i still do a lot of knitting. i can't do any embroidery nowadays but i do, i sti i'm never st er i've never er stopped enjoying knitting. it's always been a hobby with me. and then she did a lot of tatting. you don't hear that these days. erm and we never knew how she did it, she never had told anybody how she did it, it died with her i'm afraid. but everything she, everything she did always had some embroidery on. she never did anything jus just plain. it was amazing really and even, she was eighty two when she died and even then she was knitting her own jumper suits. and embroidery. even the canary cover had an embroidery on it. it was amazing . she'd ge nothing everything she did she had to sort of beautify it and put some embroidery on it. i, i take it that she didn't have a job as well. no. no. no. in those days women didn't seem to take part time jobs or jobs at all. i think if they did anything it, it was sort of charity work. er and they did a lot of sewing for bazaars at church and that sort of thing. but er i don't really remember erm people going out to work much ex except, i suppose you'd call them the lower classes, or not really the working classes because er, but the lower classes they would take in washing. er or they'd go out doi charring and go you know work the we used to have a woman come in once a week to do the washing. she'd come in and do the washing in the morning, and if it was a nice bright day she'd iron in the afternoon. for the whole family. er and other er women would you know you'd take it to them an and they'd do it in, in their own homes. and it would come back already done. but other than that i don't think, women didn't do much i mean even in shops, the men were the shop assistants nearly always. so you didn't get women going out, nothing like, not like they do these days. and when you went to school, can you remember what wh that was like? well i was never very happy at school. i never seemed to be sort of up to the other scholars at all. but er it was, the discipline was very much stricter than it is er today. er nowadays so many things are just accepted that in those days they wouldn't be. i can remember one, one girl, i mean the great sin was to steal anything, and er they'd found in her, her satchel somebody else's pencil. now whether it had got there by mistake we never knew but there was no question she was absolutely just dismissed on the spot. sent home and that was it. but er any pinching or anything like that ooh it was erm it just wasn't accepted at all. it was a terrible crime. whereas now i mean it's a case of if you lose anything it's your own fault for putting it down. it's, it's a terrible state of affairs really. it's not improved at all. and of course the discipline in the classroom er it was very strict. there was neve never any talking in class. i mean it was, you, you were sent out of the room. did you as children think that that was fair? oh yes we did. yes, we went to school to learn and we were told not to talk. if we talked well we, we expected it. er there wasn't anything like the, well not to the schools that i went to, the corporal punishment that there seems to have been since. er it w i don't ever remember anyone you know getting the cane or anything like that. we did have lines, hundred lines, i must do not do this or something like that which was very negative really. be far better if they told us to do something sensible . but er i it took your time up when you know when you might have been enjoying yourself. but, but erm no we expected, we accepted the, the discipline. we were told not to do a thing, if we did it well you, you knew what you were up against. er i think far more than they do now. they don don't seem to take notice of what the teachers said. er and i think perhaps teaching i don't know whether it's different today but they seemed to instil in us the love of, of poetry and the, the love of literature and that sort of thing. i've always been grateful for that, that they did you know create th th this love of poetry. i've never lost it. and i still like a lot of the, the classics an and the good, the good english. but er nowadays they sort of, i don't know, it's different. did you have the variety of subjects that children have today? er well i suppose we did but they were different. i er we, we had latin and french mainly. erm then we had all the usual maths and english, erm history and geography. er i think we learnt it probably in different ways, we learnt it more parrot fashion than they do today. but i, i mean when it comes to times tables that sort of thing i've never been sorry i learnt those. i think a lot of schools do still teach the t the children their tables which i think is a good thing. you never forget them. but erm there was not the handicrafts. you, you were taught plain sewing and that sort of thing but that was about all. to hem and an and to seam. but erm n n not, not the handicrafts that they teach them now at school. i say i should think really and truly er schooling today is more fun than it was. we'd, it was very serious in our day but now it's much more fun. they enjoy it more. they do all sorts of erm projects that we never did. er were the boys taught different things from the girls in some subjects? yes. they, i mean carpentry, they had carpentry. th th only boys did it and cookery only the girls that did it. er you, you sort of got a basic idea of cookery. and, and of course needlework, but erm they were mainly the, i suppose they were giving you a good er grounding as they'd call it in those days. mm. er can you remember when you were a small child erm what sort of things you did at playtime at school? the kind of games you played? well i suppose w we, yes we used to have erm hopscotch,th different seasons. i can't remember the seasons now, the different seasons brought out different games. there was hopscotch, er and then all of a sudden everybody would start with hoops. you couldn't do that these days, the traffic's too bad but we used to have wooden hoops or we'd have er iron hoops. er and then skipping ropes, that was another thing. er they, there were seasons for all these things and then erm balls, we used to used to play balls up against the walls. er but er th th oh and tops, that were another thing. yes, spinning tops. with whips. we used to, there used to be little wooden tops. and then we used to make crayon patterns of the top and then when they went whizzing round they used to look very pretty. and we used to see how who could keep them going the longest. and did both boys and girls play these games? they,everyb yes. erm th tops. girls mainly skipping, i don't remember ever seeing any boys skipping. the girls usually had the wooden hoops and the boys the iron hoops. erm but other than that yes, they didn't,th they'd play more a sort of football, the boys would. we'd play just with ordinary er sort of tennis ball size, that type of ball. but other than that, yes we did more or less all play the same games. and we used to have long skipping ropes too. we used to be sort of er almost like a erm a clothes line. you used to go sort of right into the road, almost across the road, a side road. and you'd have two turning, one each end, and you'd get four, five, or even six people all skipping in the middle. at the same time. yes. can you tell me about your brother? what did your brother go on to do later? er well he, he went, he, he went er he was erm for quite a while he was er he had chow dogs. he was breeding chow dogs and then he went t on to erm er he went to a poultry farm, for a time. and then when the war came he er he was one of the first bevan boys that, one of the boys that went down the mines to relieve the miners. er well that didn't last very long, he wasn't really cut out for that sort of thing at all. he, he, he was more of a scholastic type. then he went in for er for teaching afterwards. er and then he, he went to singapore, he was there for quite a long while after the war teaching the er the english children. they didn't mix in those days. the english were taught in a different school to the chinese. so he was teaching there and then he came back. er he's retired now, but he was teaching in an english school for a while. could you tell me about when he became a bevan boy? was that something he volunteered for? well er i, well yes. they were sort of given a choice er i either i, i think it was sort of either you go on the land or er y you, you go down the mines. and he decided he'd try down the mines. but it was very hard work. i it, it was, it was alright f for people wh who were used to that sort of thing but i mean they hadn't all the mechanization in the mines then that they have now. it was really very hard work and he used to come back absolutely smothered in coal dust, very dirty. so i think he was down for about six months before he left. where was that? er do you know, i don't know. it'd be in one of the, the pits. i don't remember which one it was. he was married by that time and erm living down at but i don't think it, it would be fairly near there. it wouldn't be too far out. can we turn now then to your own career? you'd decided to go into nursing, and you've said you'd always wanted mm. yes. to go into nursing. so how did you mm. eventually start in nursing? well i it, it certainly never entered my head to do anything else and although several other things were suggested er i never er i never even considered them. er even the headmaster said, he tried to put me off. he said, oh you know it's very hard work. you have to clean a lot of brasses, but i mean i wasn't gonna be put off. and it was er it, it, when i, i was eighteen in the march. and i started at the general hospital er in on may the first nineteen twenty nine. so why why do you think people were trying to put you off? i don't think they thought i was cut out or suitable for nursing. i don't i don't know why they shouldn't . but whether they thought it was going to be too hard work, and, and it certainly was very hard work. but if you are doing something you, you like and want and enjoy doing er you, you don't mind working hard, at all. but it was very hard work. and of course it was very very poorly paid. we got er we, well after the first three months, the first three months we, we were s what they call student nurses. er it was mainly lectures on erm hygiene, and biology,a and that type of thing. and er then we erm we, we, we went on the wards for about two or three hours a day and we just s sort of did what we were told, took out drinks and, and that sort of thing, and mouthwashes, and after er we'd been there for about six or eight weeks we were allowed to wash patients, if, if they couldn't wash themselves. th this type of thing until the, after the three months we had to pass an exam. and if we passed the exam then we became er er p probationer nurses then. and started on the, on the wards. we started at seven in the morning and we finished at eight at night. and we had er two hours off during the day, er and twenty minutes for dinner and er about twenty minutes for tea. so we didn't get very much ti time off and by the time we got back to our rooms at night we were so terribly tired you just dropped into bed. i don't think i've ever been so tired before or since as i was just that, that first year when we were probationer nurses. we were on our feet the whole time. it, we never sort of slackened off at all and in those days there was so much brass to be cleaned and scrubbing to be done and cleaning. everything was er so much more difficult than it, than it is today and er things were not sort of disposed of like they are now. they, they were all sterilized, thoroughly washed, and then st sterilized in, in the sterilizer, boiled in the sterilizer. and i and i don't know whether they still have the wooden lockers now but they used to be, have to be all scrubbed out every week. the outside polished. er it, it was very hard work. there's no getting away from it. and when you were pros you did, you got all the mucky jobs to do as well. they always used to call us mucky little pros. and for all for er for that er you got, you, you well you got your keep er and i don't really think there was anything wrong with the food, it was the way it was cooked. it was terribly badly cooked. and you just could not manage on the food that was provided. you either got tuck boxes from home or you had to supplement it with your own earnings, which, ten shillings a week. we got two pounds a month. and out of that you had to keep yourself in stockings, er and shoes for the ward. er and you, you, you provided yourself with the uniform before you came as a student nurse so that was alright for the first year, so you'd no uniform to provide. but er i often wonder what the nurses today would think if they if that's all they n they got . i know m money did go much farther in those days but there certainly wasn't very much to spare at all. erm you kept so busy it seems a waste of time to ask you what your social life was like as a student nurse ? it was nil. absolutely. there was never any time at all. and even when you got into your second years you did get erm two hours off one day and three hours the next, which was usually five till eight. but you had to be in by eight o'clock. so er i mean it wasn't much good if you wa wanted to go out with anybody. say, well i'm awfully sorry i'm off at five but i got to be back at eight. it , no, no. it was absolutely, it wasn't, it was absolutely n no social life at all. if you were lucky er and you had friends in , you could go out for tea and, and that's about all there was. and on the sunday well you'd go to church or chapel because literally there was nothing else to do. there was nothing going on in the centre of . it was absolutely dead. you couldn't get a cup of tea or a cup of coffee anywhere. of course no theatres open, no pictures open, no coffee bars. absolutely nothing. it was as dead as anything. were all the student nurses about the same age? yes. yo occasionally you got somebody who was a little bit older but no we were nearly always, i don't think anyone much older could have stood the pace actually . er we did have one person who was in her early twenties but er she gave it up. er you know she couldn't stick it, she, she gave it up, it was too hard work. and do you think they all came from the same kind of background as yourself or were they more working people? . no, i think they were a real mixture. er er they came from a good old cross section of life. i s i still even now occasionally see one or two that we, we all started together. we still keep up, we hear from one another at christmas time. but erm no we there were, there were all sorts er there was, they used to come in of course from the country. er there was a stationmaster's daughter there i remember. erm no, no, we were a good old cross section i think really. in those days you know it, it was a vocation. you certainly didn't do it for the money . er you, you did it because you really wanted to and it, it, it was a satisfying job. and that's what i think it, it's, i'm wondering now if the nurses today get the satisfaction from the job that we got in those early days. it was very hard work but you felt, well i've done a good day's work when you'd finished. because when you were on night duty, which you, you did, er i it was a twelve hour stint right through from eight at night till eight in the morning. and course you, other than the half an hour for a meal in the middle of the night er that was it you got no time off at all. so erm where do you think your satisfaction came from in the job? well i suppose you i i i th th the patients were very very grateful for anything that you did. we did get them better a lot of them at any rate . er and i think there w there was that satisfaction that you, you were doing something to help people get better. and they'd, they'd come in for surgery and you know you'd nurse them back again. get them up on their feet. and there was a satisfaction about it although i always think in those days we had to work so fast that there wasn't the time to do what you'd really like to have done for the patients. it was a case of, i mean we used to start and wash them at three o'clock in the morning because t you had to start then because you'd never get it all done. you had to get everything done by the day staff coming on at seven. er and if you didn't start at that early hour you'd, you'd, you'd never, they used to get, sit up in bed, have a wash,then lie down again and go to sleep . i mean i don't think they do, they do that these days, i hope not any rate . but you just had to do that sort of thing, i, we used to feel awfully sorry for the patients but you had, they had do it because they wouldn't have got a wash otherwise, there was so mu so much to do. i don't suppose the unions would put up with it these days but er ha there weren't such things as unions for nurses in those days. was there nothing that even the full er fully trained nurses could join? no union? well,i i just towards the end of my training there, there, there was the er college of nursing started. now er that really started to look into the, the, the nur the, the er profession and also to sort of see if they couldn't improve the lot of nurses. and of course now a large number of, of nurses, certainly the older ones do belong to the er college of nursing, were members of that. we, i was in it, we, i think we paid a shilling a week, a five p a we er a, a five p a month to belong to it. erm so we didn't pay very very much but they certainly had, they did, er they tried to standardize the, the nurses. because e even in those days er it, it wasn't, there'd be good training hospitals and not so good. now, nowadays a good training hospital will, will want at least er a number of o levels and preferably two or even three a levels before they would accept a student. er standards have gone up, there's no doubt about that. but erm did you have to have any particular qualifications when you started? they liked us to have what in those days was the matric. and if you had the matric yes well i it did help you to get in. er you, you s a lot of them people did apply but er they just didn't you know they didn't get in. they didn't, what it was they didn't consider that people were suitable to become a nurse. i think that's what it was. but other than that, yeah they did like you to have your matric. i, i did have it and erm that was a help. the standard, standard of, of exams were pretty high, there's no getting away from that they were pretty high. because you'd sort of, they, they'd go up and then if, if you went any farther you'd go on to the doctors' lectures you see. so they were pretty high in those days. now it was the general hospital in where you did your training. that's it, yes. erm, can you remember what it was like generally in terms of facilities? erm it wasn't too bad. we had our own bedrooms and that was saying quite a bit, because er the, the nurses home had been built er for the er as a sort of war memorial for after the first world war which was one of the most sensible war memorials i think anyone could have er provided . and we all had er our own bedrooms, which was nice. they weren't very big, but er they'd got a wardrobe, a be a single bed and er dressing table and drawers. er and then we had about, ooh there'd be about ooh twenty of us to four bathrooms. and then we had er washrooms, about four or five washbasins in. erm that, that, it, it wasn't too bad because people were coming on duty and going off duty. er so i mean they were in use more or less all the time but er it was it wasn't, it wasn't too bad, better than a lot of hospitals had. er ther there we did, we had a tutor sister who used to give us all our lectures. she did her best to try and in to make things a little bit more er interesting and she did start a tennis club up, which was nice because there was nothing at all before then. and we managed to get er two tennis courts which was very nice and we a we all used to play tennis. and she even managed to get us er somebody who would come and coach us a bit. so we, we th that, that was er another good thing they, they got going but there was very little for, for nurses to do. i think you were sort of there to, and then you see you, you've got to remember that all our lectures were taken in our off duty time. we didn't have time off for lectures we had to fit them in with our wi with our off duty. er and often you'd come off duty at eight o'clock a and you'd have to go to a lecture between eight and nine at night. and, and even if you were on night duty you'd be on night duty for twelve hours, you'd come off at eight in the morning and have to go to a lecture at nine. and it was terribly difficult cos you'd just fall asleep. and many, and many a time tutor sister would rap on the desk and say, come on, wake up,we've nearly finished . she was very good. very . but we used to have to take notes during the lecture a and then write the lectures up afterwards. so you could always borrow somebody else's notes to write them up . but nowadays of course they have a day off for lectures. er it's much better really. but we did get terribly tired. and we had one day off a month. and if you were on night duty you'd get two nights off, but when you came back you'd, you'd, you'd have to be on duty that night so you'd have to go to bed that day. but we neve we never complained, no we, we, you know, we, we did, i suppose everybody worked harder in those days. i, i mean they did on the farms. i su i suppose erm things are easier now. and of course nowadays there's so much er things that er we use, there are so much labour saving things now that which makes a big difference. i think they've all got their own washing machines on the ward and that sort of thing, whereas we had to do it by hand and then bundle it all up and send it down to the laundry. were there things which the student nurses did complain about at all? no, we didn't. we wer were there because we wanted to be there. erm and no, i don't remember. we, we might grumble a bit amongst ourselves but we, we'd never dream of, of making a, a sort of an official complaint. i i don't think , we had a matron who was extremely strict and i don't think we would've dared to say anything to her at all. she used to sit behind her desk looking very prim and proper, and er i don't, i don't quite honestly think we would've dared say anything to her at all. what sort of things was she strict about? er er the way we looked. we, we were not allowed to look er pretty on the wards or anything like that. we had to keep our hair right under our caps, look ver very much the nurse. we were not there to look pretty at all. er and er you, yes she was very very particular. we were not allowed to have any ladders in our stockings or anything like that, we had to look very smart. er and always always clean and in those, even when you were, you had to behave yourself when you were not on duty when you were, even if you, she saw you out not looking er smart she'd soon tell you about it, er, no you let the hospital down when you, you're like that. and we were never allowed to go out in uniform, we always had to change er into mufti. but er n no, she was, she was, she was very particular even on the wards everything had to be just so. er she used to start coming round the wards about ten o'clock. and er there were two nurses always detailed to go around about half past nine and tidy all the beds up and the patients had got to look like patients . they'd got to sit up and lean against their pillows and their sheets had got to be turned down. er very, very neat, very tidy. and er all, all magazines and papers had to be put away. it was alright when she'd done the round they could, they could er bring them out again then, but not until then. and she'd go round and sort of s say, good morning, good morning. er very prim and proper, and and er er she'd go all the way round and she'd soon tell you if there was, if the beds weren't tidy. or if any, the locker wasn't straight, everything had to be very, very straight, very, very correct. were the other senior nursing staff like her in their attitudes to prim primness and correctness or were some of them laxer than that? they were a bit laxer but a lot of them were very very strict. mind you it was their ward and, and yo you were there to learn and they were there t to teach. and you did the job properly. er which it wasn't a bad, a bad . so sometimes the sisters would, would really sort of get it in for a nurse and she'd and they could make your life very unpleasant indeed . but on the whole they weren't too bad. they weren't too bad, not on, not on the whole. you certainly did learn, you learnt to do things properly. you see. did any nurses ever get asked to leave? erm, oh yes, yes. i mean if you weren't in at whe when you were in your third and fourth year, it was a four year er training, er in third and fourth years you were allowed to stay out till ten o'clock at night. but if you weren't in by ten the doors were locked. so of course we used to sort of try and get in in the nurses' home through a ground floor window. and if you were caught letting somebody in through a ground floor window about eleven o'clock a night , that, that was it. you was, were dismissed on the spot, that was it. that was the ultimate crime was it? yes. oh it, it was, yes. and i don't know wh i mean it was ridiculous even in those days, ten o'clock was very early. but er no you weren't allowed out. and even then er you had to ask for permission to stay out till ten. you, you weren't auto sort of automatically allowed out till ten you had to go to the office and say, please may i stay out till ten. i am going to do so and so, or i am going to the pictures or i, i'm going to so and so's for tea. er and then you were allowed. but it er, when you're looking back it, it seems very ridiculous these days. they really did er they commanded your entire life. you were there for four years and the they, they didn't just, if you weren't in by ten and you didn't get your proper night's sleep then you wouldn't be any good on the wards the next morning. that was their er the their way of looking at it. er that you, you had to have your sleep otherwise you were, you weren't er you, you couldn't a attend to your lectures and, and do your work the next day. you had, you had to get your night's sleep and proper rest. do you think that was an attitude to that was erm unique to nursing at the time or do you think erm that possibly girls in other walks of life had the same kind of experience of discipline and demands on them? well i suppose probably people li like nursemaids and er and er what they used to call in those days mothers' helps, who used to sort of be a general skivvy around the house and would look after the children, and, and, and they were the same, they had to be in i think at, at sort of ten o'clock at night. erm and at that ti but other than that, mind you i su i suppose that if, if i'd been at home i should have probably been expected to be in, but i don't think i should have been locked out. i should have been allowed in if i was five minutes late . yes. were boys treated in the same way do you think? i suppose they probably were. i don't sort of, i mean in those days they had wh apprenticeships and, and that sort of thing. you were apprenticed. er i, i suppose yes they probably were expected to be in by a definite time. i don't really think it did us any harm. erm it, it was a bit restricting, er but i don't really think the, the, the discipline did us any, any harm you know. i, i, it probably gave us a good grounding. i've always grown up with the idea if i do a job, i'll, i'll do it properly or else i won't bother, i won't tackle it all. i think it instilled that into me. and of course if you are nursing you can't afford to make mistakes, it may cost somebody's life if you do. you've got to have your wits about you. if you're giving medicines or, or an and that sort of thing, drugs of any sort. er if you give an overdose or forget something, not to give medicine or give too much medicine it, it can be very serious, the consequences could be serious. mm. yes. quite. and when you finished your training erm that was, how long a training was it in fact? four years four years. and then if you'd been off sick at all you had to make that time up as well so it was about four years and six months i did there altogether. mhm. and then you were a fully qualified nurse? yes i was a state registered nurse then. yes and did you stay on at the hospital then? er no, i left then. for the last six months i did erm ward sister duties. she, she was off, off sick and er so for the last six months i did sister's duties which was very useful because er it, it, it gave me that little bit of independence, working on my own whereas before you'd always got either the staff nurse or the sister to fall back on. you know i was completely on my own i, i'd got to make my own decisions. so it really was, it, it was quite nice having that six months. when you'd got your qualifications was there a big difference between the status of the trained nurse and the student nurses? oh yes, yes. the they er even in the dining room you, you sort of, there were long tables, well when you came in as, as a student nurse you were right at the bottom of the table, and as you, you know, the second year, third year, fourth year, you gradually moved up and then the, the state registered nurses they all sat together. now i think they have sep little tables now but in those days they were long, just long trestle tables. yes you did you, you, you erm you, you were sort of treated differently, yes you were definitely. did you get er different privileges as, as you became the fully qualified nurse then? yes,y yes, you, you were, you'd sort of passed all your exams so yo th they sort of had to make it a little bit easier. you, you were allowed to, to stay out but erm you, you had to get permission. you weren't sort of allowed just in and out when you wanted to, you had to get permission to stay out late. they liked to keep tabs on you even then . did you stay at hospital after you'd finished your training? er about six months. just, just a mere six months. and then what did you do? then i er decided i'd take my midwifery. er so i went to , to the nursing home, i don't know whether it's still there. it's a, it's a training, it was training school for midwives. and erm i was there for about a year. you, you could take, if you got your general your state registered nurse you could take your midwifery in a year. and erm that, that, first of all it was lectures and helping, you did get er patients coming in. there'd be about ooh twenty beds i think. and then er after that you, you went on the, on the district. er you were called out at night and of course in those days you went round on a bicycle and you, you went round with your little black bag strapped on the back. and you'd, you'd, you'd be on call and the babies nearly always come at night. er and you'd er they'd er just bang on the door and, and call you and you had to be downstairs in five minutes. er and cycle to where it was. when you were a student midwife you went with a proper midwife. and er when you'd got on a bit you delivered the baby but the midwife was there to see you didn't make any mistakes and, and really to t teach you to do it. it was the practical side of it. but erm yes sometimes you'd, you'd get there in time but you see they'd just, i, there, there weren't the telephones about in those days so you, you, you couldn't, everybody didn't have a phone, they couldn't ring in an and say i'm in labour. it'd mean waiting till, often till the, the father came back from work and then he'd have to er sometimes come right up to the er to the nursing home er to tell you that, that they was, that she was in labour and would we please come. er sometimes the police, if, if there was a police station near, they would phone a message through but er quite of quite often and then you'd, you'd get there and often you'd hear the baby was born by the time you got there . but it, it erm it, it was hard work in those days. i, i can remember once i, i think it was hill, or i think it was estate, it was quite a new estate in those, in those days when i, when i was there. erm and there was a hill out, that runs up to this housing estate out of, and it runs well through, really through the cemetery. there's a walled cemetery on one side and well in those days it had railings round the cemetery on the other side. i expect they all went in the second world war . er but i can remember going cycling up that hill,and the midwife was there as well,and there was a most awful scream came from this er this cemetery. it was moonlight too. and i have never got up that hill so fast in all my life . and i, it wasn't until afterwards i realized it was cats caterwauling. it looked so weird in the moonlight and this scream coming up. oh yes, i can remember that. you, you did get funny things like that that er that sort of rather lightened things. but er nowadays of course you don't get babies born in the homes like we did in, in, when i, when i was training. er and often you'd go into a quite a poor home and you'd, you'd sort of er,th there wasn't the money about you see in, in those days. nineteen twenty nine, it was in the nineteen thirties when there was the depression people just had not got the money to really provide for the baby as they would do, well they would do now. and you'd say, well now have you got a bowl. i shall want a bowl. and they'll say, well yes there's, there's this bowl. and you'd say, right, and you'd go the, after the baby was born you, you'd go back again to what we call the nur nursing, nursing up and you'd want the bowl again for the baby and you'd say wh where's the bowl and they'd say, oh well i think it's downstairs, we used it yesterday to make a pudding in. and so you'd have to go and find this bowl and sterilize it again. but you, you just had to fit in with things. and a lot of the mothers couldn't afford to buy the, the proper erm maternity er sanitary towels that they would have done nowadays. er and er you'd say, well try and get on old sheet and wash it thoroughly and iron them the p cut it up and iron them with a hot iron. and that would more or less sterilize it, as sterilized as you'd, you know, you could ever get anything. you see there was no erm grants in those days like they have now, nothing, nothing at all. so they, they just had to try and save er from the, the man's wages and if, and, and if they weren't in work there was very very little money at all. and people did rally round. er the people helped one another far more i think then than they do now because i suppose now it just isn't, it isn't necessary. people can manage. and in those days most people did have their children at home, didn't they? yes, the majority of them did. yes, the majority of them did. unless er there was any er you know you, you were expecting any problems. then of course th they would come in. but nearly always at home. well i suppose th they felt it was the cheapest way of, of, of having them. rather than co coming in to hospital. and er who were the midwives employed by? er the county council. yes, they were appointed by the county council so i sup and er i, i rather think that they, we never got paid but i rather think th they'd have to pay the council something for the midwife's services. but er i don't remember that side of it at all. i didn't sort of erm i cer i, i certainly didn't touch you know any, any money at all. and when you were a student erm who was paying for your training? we had to pay for our own training in those days. yes. the county council er w would train you but you'd do your erm year's training and then you had to work for them for a year, i think it was a year or eighteen months. er and er to sort of pay them back. and er you were on sort of reduced salary. they, they gave you enough to sort of live on. er but er y they sort of got their money back that way. yes so all this time were you still living in a nurses home? yes, yes, yes. we were living on the, on the premises. mhm. yes. can you remember any, any particular births either difficult ones or funny ones? yes, i can remember one ,i it er she, she was a stocky little woman too. and she came in and she had this, this baby, and it was her thirteenth baby and it weighed fourteen pounds. and honestly it wasn't like a baby at all, a new baby, it was huge. and we called it the bull because it didn't cry, it sort of bellowed. it was louder than all the other babies all put together . and er during the, course in those days you stayed in bed for ten days, you were supposed to at any rate. and er all that, her other twelve children all came up to see her while she was there and they were beautifully kept, really well kept and well fed too. er he was a bus driver. so she'd managed alright. i don't know whether she had any more, she said she hoped it was the last and i should think she did, thirteen children to look after . but you know medicine was, was very different in those days. i, i can remember erm when we ever had women in from the country they'd say, oh yes,y y my mother told me always to take raspberry, raspberry leaf tea. it always gives you a, an easy labour. now whether there was any truth in it or not i don't know but a lot of country women always used to have raspberry leaf tea during pregnancy. er and it always, they always used to say, oh yes you'll have a much easier labour if you do. whether there was any truth in it or not i've no idea . but there wasn't the, the erm ante natal care that there is these days, i mean there were no erm when you went round to se if you were a midwife and you went round to see the prospective mother you'd say, now you are eating proper meals aren't you? well that, that's as much as they ever got. you never said you know, are you eating fruit or are you taking vitamins? i mean nowadays everybody has vitamin pills whether they need them or not. they make quite sure they are getting enough vitamins. but in those days th they didn't. and er i mean there, there are not the relaxating exercises th that they have now. i don't know whether they they, i suppose they really didn't have the time. see nowadays there's so much more in the way of erm labour saving devices. in those days the washing was done in a good old copper boiling on a monday and light the fire underneath it and this sort of thing. er i don't suppose they had much time for, for relaxing and sitting down. they used to say, well i try and get my er my legs up for half an hour in the afternoon, but that'd be about as much as th they'd get in the way of rest. they carried on just the same as usual. a at what point would you first erm see someone who was expecting a baby? oh about six months as a rule. they'd, they'd, they'd sort of say, they'd, they, they were supposed to book a, a midwife you see. and, and er then that midwife would po call and see them perhaps one well they call at six months just to make sure ev ev everything was alright. and th they'd examine the mother. and er a and then they'd go, they'd, they'd, if the mother was strong healthy and everything was going alright they'd probably leave it another month before they went. or if they were worried about it then they they'd go sooner. but you'd perhaps go three or four times before the baby was born and er just see everything was alright and you'd know which way the baby was lying a and which way it was going to er you know come and if you thought there was going to be any problems well you know then you, you would sort of let the doctor know and, and he'd decide then. but erm i, i think a midwife, a good midwife, is every bit as good as a doctor because she's doing it all the time . and she er she, she a lot of midwives were extremely clever in those days. and you didn't have the erm all the aids that they have now. i mean they put something round the mother's tummy and they can see the heart beat beating, whereas we, if we wanted to know if the baby was alright and er it wasn't getting distressed you'd just put a, a cloth on the mummy's tum and put your ear down to it and hear it that way. there were not the aids that there were now. erm would the er patients be seeing the doctor as well as the midwife during this few months before they were going no. to give birth? no. not necessarily. no, you'd, you'd er you'd just if provided you, the midwife thought everything was going as it should, that was it. you, you ju just left it to the midwife. the doctors didn't come into it much at all. er only if erm the mother was torn at all or, or if you didn't think the baby was coming as it should, there was problems there, then you, you would. you'd, you'd, the, the er the patient would have a d her own doctor. well and you'd, you'd just send for the doctor. or if she was torn then the doctor would come er and stitch her up. but that was another thing nowadays they, they just don't seem to bother at all if the mother gets torn, now in those days it was a terrible disgrace to g to er if you had a, had a delivery and the mother was torn. er it just wasn't done and it was, it was bad midwifery, it was bad nursing to, to get a tear. er and y you know if you sent for a doctor you were almost apologetic that the mother was torn. but nowadays they just don't seem to bother at all. it's just sort of a foregone conclusion. no it was erm i was going to say much more natural in, in those days, i suppose in a way it was more natural. i don't think the babies were any worse or the mothers were any worse. you see a working, well of course they do get them up nowadays, but in th you were supposed t to stay in bed for at least a fortnight after the mother was born but you a lot of these mothers used to hop out of bed when the midwife had gone, and, and i mean if they'd got two or three children and a husband coming in and they hadn't got a mother or a neighbour or somebody to come in and do the cooking,i i mean she'd just get up and get on with it herself. they'd have to. i mean it wasn't done, and nobody knew about it, and no one said anything about it but it was. were there any anaesthetics in use during childbirth? erm no, they'd usually give an anaesthetic if the mother had to be sewn or if it was a forceps delivery, but that was all. er it was hardly ever er a mother was just sort of given something to ease the pain. er er the principle was that erm th the birth of a child is, it is painful but it's not a pain too much for a mother to bear, that was the, the id the principle that they went on. that it was erm er it, it, it was bearable. and n not, not many of them re really complained. they were usually glad when it was over. but other than that, no. i expect the conditions in some of the houses you went into were, were er pretty poor. yes. th they certainly were,i it er i it, they were very very poor,th they, you got into some of the poor poorer homes. er clean, er th they were nearly always clean but there was just not er the things there to use. that was the trouble, they just couldn't afford to provide them. and you just had to make do best way you could. do you think that this er affected the erm chances of the child living? er, yes, i suppose, i suppose it, it could have done if you get a sickly baby and, and a sickly mother. er the baby probably wouldn't stand such a, a good chance. er and of course you, you'd get er, those days they didn't have cots the mother had the baby in bed with her. and i, i can remember a, a mother, she was a very big woman, she rolled onto her baby and, and suffocated the baby. now i, i can't imagine any mother doing it twice, but the first time they said it was an accident. the baby of course suffocated. er er but the second time the police came and asked quite a lot of questions about it. when she did it the second time. but erm, no, it, it yo i think there were sickly babies. but the majority of them managed to, managed to thrive. did you erm ever experience any babies born with deformities? erm no, no, i didn't. they were er they were all fairly, fairly healthy babies. i only had one stillbirth. that was, that was the only, only time. oh yes, we did, we did have one baby, yes, we did, in the er in the home. erm and, and it didn't live very very very long at all. it was very badly malformed, the back of the head wasn't there at all. erm the back of the skull er and it didn't last i think it lasted two or three weeks but that was all. but that was the only one. and erm i, when i was in, in hospital we did have triplets two of those lived alright though. but they were alright, they were just erm er sort o but you see in those days babies didn't live. now if they said, if a baby was under five pounds it, it wouldn't survive. er there were none of the incubators and this sort of thing for them like we've got today. and er th they just sort of, they jus just didn't, didn't live very very few of them did. and anything under five pounds well you didn't expect them to live. but er nowadays of course they do get a very much better chance. were the families much bigger then when you were nursing? yes, yes. i mean four, five, six children, yes. erm ver very yes they were very much er much bigger. but now er with family planning and contraception er they are you know they're, they're far better really. er the, the children are getting a better chance. they're erm sort of two or three in a family. parents today are far more responsible, they're, they sort of say no erm we won't we'll only have the number of children we can give a good start in life to. where which probably the parents when i was doing midwifery would have said the same thing but there was nothing they could do about it. there wasn't the pill in those days and there was simply er really nothing that the woman could do to stop herself getting pregnant. er i it was alright if the man took precautions but if the woman didn't take precautions there was er i mean the man didn't, there was nothing the woman could do at all about it. so it was very very hard on the woman because it the the they just came one after the other. it was nothing five six you know children or even like that other one thirteen children. erm but she, she was quite happy with her thirteen but i think a lot of the others w women, no,the they er it pulled them down terribly. was it any part of your job to give such contraceptive advice as you could to, to er families? not really. but i mean often women would say, what can i do, i don't want any more babies, what can i do? well all you really could do was say, well you'll have to ask your doctor and get him to have a talk with your husband. er that was really all the advice we could give. there was nothing very much we could do about it. now of course i mean the the woman can do something which is, it's, it's a very good thing. and of course sterilizing er you know for a man to be sterilized or a woman to be sterilized er you just it, just wo nobody ever, even considered it. it was never th not a, never even thought of. was family planning any part of your training at all? no, not really, no. no it wasn't. erm were you as a midwife ever approached about abortions? er n no. we, we were you know sort of asked, is there anything i can do to get rid of the baby? but er not really seriously because you see in those days it, it was illegal for anything like that. th that was the, the hard part, there was nothing they could do about it at all. did people find ways of having abortions? yes. there were, there's always been the illegal er abortionist. and erm there used to be shops where they would, they'd sort of say, we can give you pills to bring it on, but i, i don't think they ever really did. sometimes they'd, they'd try taking a good dose of epsom salts to see if that would start things you know but er there was very little, very little they could do. i, i wonder do did doctors erm attempt abortions at all? erm not, they, they did a bit erm if, if it was you know really a medical, if it was really detrimental to the mother to have another one, er then they would. or if sort of they started they'd, they'd always have them in hospital and, and finish it off properly. erm but not very often no. you, if, if, if you, you, you got yourself pregnant that's it. erm but it, it, it was very hard, very hard on these families because they worked really hard and the children kept on coming. it, it was very difficult. after the babies were born a part of your job would be to help mothers erm train the babies. yeah, yes. erm what was the view of what a well trained baby should be? well we didn't do a lot of that er except gi giving advice wh when we just sort of er going round as a midwife. but after that i did take up private nursing. erm and then you went for a whole month which was, you could do something in that time. you'd go er before the baby was born and then you'd look after the baby for the fi for a whole month. er and you then you, you'd try your best and usually we, we could er get them to sleep the, the whole night through. they'd have the ten o'clock feed and then it, it'd sleep through till, till the six o'clock the next morning for the next morning feed. that's what you'd try to train him to do. er but usually you'd have to give perhaps a drink of erm er water just, just warm water. er just in the middle of the night. you, you had to in those days you had to sort of er use your common sense because if you had a big healthy baby it's a long while to go right through ten o'clock at night till six o'clock the next morning. but usually that's what you tried to do, that's what you aimed at doing. at giving the baby his last feed at ten and putting him down and hoping that he'd stay asleep till well half past five to six the next morning. so that when you left er the mother had had time to, to get up she hadn't had any bad nights. er she'd got herself reasonably fit again er and then if she'd car take over the mo the baby you'd, you'd get, you'd train her if she didn't know, if she ha if it was the first baby. er you, she'd take, you, you'd teach her to bath it and, and, and this sort of thing and look after him. er and then you'd er say, right now you're on your own now, er and, and if you'd got the baby sleeping right through the night it was so much easier for her. she'd just er put him down at ten and, and that, that was that. in those days th there was a great do about babies sleeping in a room on their own. well i i and if it cried well you let it cry, you just let it go on crying until it was so tired it went to sleep. erm i, i never did agree with that very much really. i don't think i could have stood it crying for hours on end . er usually if a baby cries it's usually trying to tell you something er and if, if by the time three or four weeks is up er you, you find out wh wh you know if there is anything wrong. but er usually a baby will be contented if it's being fed properly. erm an and it's, it's er it's kept dry and it's comfy. usually it'll be, it'll sleep from one feed to the next. could you tell me how you came to move from midwifery into private nursing? yes. well it was when i'd finished my midwifery training i certainly stayed on a little while in er in doing a bit of district work. s the only one i did do after we were married. i had my first bab theonly one i did do after we were married. i had my first baby oo and there were about ooh i should about think twelve nurses in the association. and we were either on call or, or we were sent out very quickly. all over the place we went really, not just in , all round and er farther afield as well if they were short of private nurses. and then of course i, i did quite a lot of children's nursing then, er but also general nursing as well, a bit o a bi some midwifery and er mainly ge general nursing. did you choose to move away from midwifery in that way or did er or was it just that er a job came up? no. erm i liked, i liked a bit more variety. it was a, i think if you really did midwifery er when you were doing it privately there was always a doctor there i sort of in charge as well. er but if not, if you are just doing midwifery i, i think you er really need to stick at it and just do that because it's, it's the more practise and the more babies you bring into the world the better you get at it. you know you sort of er get i think yes i th i think you were sort of better at the job the mo the more practise you got, and the more you did it. but i liked er general work, it, it brought all sorts of things in. different er different kinds of nursing. er medical and then sometimes people with a lot of money if they needed a not a particularly dangerous operation they'd have it done in their own homes. sort of fix a room up as a theatre and bring the, some nursing staff in. and then you'd stop on afterwards to er nurse them back to health again. used to get all sorts. erm i liked the children's nursing, i was always you know fond of children. we used to get all sorts of things. i could remember one case i had, er he'd be about eight. and er they said they wanted a nurse, this child had been very sick and they didn't quite know what was wrong with him. but he was very sick so er they wanted somebody to stay with him overnight at any rate so i, he wasn't sleeping, and i, he said what, i said to him, what do you think made you sick? so he said, well you won't tell mummy or daddy will you? i said, no, no, i won't tell them, not unless you say i can. he said, well you see i've been smoking. i smoked one of daddy's cigars. and that's the reason he was so sick . he soon got better again, but i, i never told his parents. they'd no idea why they'd been so sick . was it better paid whe in private nursing than in midwifery? erm yes. but if you erm went to an ordinary general case it was three pounds a week you got sal er for your er salary. but you did get your keep you see th you, you more, you usually, usually you lived with the family. but if it was a very posh place er you'd probably have your meals with the housekeeper, which we used to enjoy better really . er and then for midwifery you got four, four guineas a week. and out of that we paid half a crown ou in every guinea to the association because they got the jobs for us. so it was the er , miss 's nursing association that we, we belonged to. and it was a fairly, fairly high, everybody was fully trained. it was erm, i used to enjoy it. used to go for sometimes two or three weeks, sometimes if it was a maternity a month, but i used to enjoy it. it, you, you used to meet a lot of different kinds of people and er not only that you travelled about quite a bit as well. it was very interesting. and you stayed in that kind of work until you got married,? that's right yes i did. yes how, how did you meet your husband? well i, i met him actually through er i was nursing erm a baby, she was only three months old and she'd had, she'd caught, from her older sister she'd caught whooping cough. er that's why i was there. and he was friendly with them, and i met him there. that's how i first met him . so er we were introduced and the first time he took me out er he proposed to me but it, it, it took me six months to make my mind up . but er that's how i met him. did you get much free time to go out at all? no, very little. er very little. if, if er if you were on a case er well if you could get out for a, for an hour in the afternoon for a walk, but that was about all. you were re really on call all the time. but erm it, it, i don't know, it we ne we never seemed to think anything about it at all. we, we perhaps would have a week or ten days in between cases. and then of course we could go out and er as much as we liked then. we, all of us had er a bed-sitting room of our own which we kept on between cases cos we had to have somewhere to live and erm and then of course we, we'd come back there and make up for lost time really . did you share a, a bed-sit or flat with someone else then? no, no. i had, i had one of my own. it, it wasn't a very big one. it was a put-u-up bed and i think i paid, i think it was a guinea a week for it. it wasn't, you know, it wasn't very much not in in those days. er and then of course you erm you shared a kitchen, we shared a kitchen. there were one, two, three, three bed-sitting rooms and one kitchen between us. and we used to sort of arrange it when one wasn't cooking the other one would be you know and this sort of thing. we used to have quite a good time. so were the, the people in the other bed-sits also nurses like yourself? yes, they were. they were, which was, well it was quite useful really because er you, you know you had to be, you were called out to a case suddenly er there was always somebody just to make sure you hadn't left any food you know in the kitchen that was going to grow whiskers until you got back. er yes, it was, we, we were all very friendly together. we were all actually on the er same association so we were alright. so then you got married then. yes, i did, yes. and you gave up nursing. was it immediately you got married? erm yes. i, i only took one case on after i was married er and that er that was a maternity case i'd been to the first baby. and they said, would i go er for the second, and i said, yes i would. but that's the only one i did do after we were married. i had my first baby ooh about ooh fourteen, fourteen or fifteen months after we were married, but i lost, i lost my first baby at three months. but then i had another er one within er two years and i had them both fairly quickly. so i had two now, a boy and a girl. er and they're both married now so er they're, they're quite off hand. but no in those days if you had children er young children at any rate you, you, you never expected to go out to work at all. that you, you looked after the home and the children. they always sort of came first, they were the sort of centre of the family and everything rotated round them. whereas now of course er they, they seem to grow up more quickly. and even during the second world war er mothers with their children under the age of five er they weren't expected to do any war work at all. it wasn't until they were er sort of six or seven years old that er you'd, you'd took a part time job. but you were always allowed home when the children were not at school. it was far more the usual thing, women didn't go out to work very much, not after they were married. not even in jobs like midwifery? erm not unless there was a reason for it. you know if there were no children then probably th th they would, they might do then. but er ther there'd have to be a good reason for it if, if, if erm the nurses did go out, er afterwards. sometimes they did when the children were grown up, or at least well off hand. sort of left school. er they night go back to it then if they really wanted to, or usually there was a reason for it. the husband had either died or something of that sort, or the husband was unable to work, then the mother would have to work to keep things going. so the reason was always that people really needed the money rather than they just wanted to work? yes, i think they did. yes i think that was the main reason. it, it was er, women in those days were quite content to s sort of stop at home. er and just be a home-maker unless as i said if there was a reason for it, if they needed the money. or some reason like that. another would sometimes go back to work er if their son or dau well mainly the sons went to university and they needed the extra money for that. er they probably would go back to, to work then, but it was usual for a married mother to stop at home. did you ever feel after having your own children that er you would have made a better midwife erm this experience than when you were single? er i think i should certainly have made a better nurse, yes, yes i think i should. er i when we were midwives we used to say that was the way to bring a child up but w when you'd had your own you sort of bent the rules a little bit more . er and i, i think i, i should have said if er la you know after i'd had my own, enjoy your babies while they're young because they grow up so quickly, whereas before it was a case of, don't pick them up when they, you know, if they cry leav let them cry. they're alright, they, it won't do them any harm. whereas you know when mine began to cry it was a good excuse to give them a bit of a cuddle . you looked at things differently, yes certainly you did. mhm. do you think that this sort of attitude is probably true today, that the kind of things we learn about child rearing are not the things we put into practise when we actually have children to bring up ourselves? yes, i'm sure it is. yes. i, i think now er having brought my own up and now they've got children of their own and i've got grandchildren er yes my attitude is, is quite different. i can understand them far better now than i did then. i can enjoy them far better. and i, i think that is a very important thing really. because i think that's where grandparent are important to children, specially these days when mothers do go out to work. er you, you, you'll find that children will, grandchildren will tell their grandparents thing that they won't tell their own parents. now i, i can remember doing that myself when i was young. i could tell my grandparents things that i wouldn't tell my, my father or my mother. but er i could always tell granny and granddad. and i'm finding now that my grandchildren are just the same. their attitude to me, they'll tell me things, because they, they know that you, you, well won't repeat it, you won't tell on them. unless you think it's really necessary and then you may drop a hint. but er yes i, i've certainly find, find that. i, i think grandparents have a very important part in a, in a growing child's life. very important. in fact my grandchildren feel very deprived because they they haven't got a grandfather. they've adopted one. somebody somebody who lives quite near, they're a very nice old couple. so they said, well they didn't really want another granny but they, they wanted to adopt a granddad. yes, when was it that your husband died in fact? he died eighteen years ago, so of course he never saw he never saw them. he never saw them at all, no. so they, they, they do, they do miss him. what did your husband do when he was alive? well he was a photographer. er he used to do, we used to have a round each morning and collect all the films from the chemists and then we developed and printed them and took them back at night. er ooh we had quite a round er in and , all the, all the way round the centre of . er and also he had a studio, he specialized, he was very fond of children, he specialized in children's photos. so we were kept pretty busy. did you help him in this work? yes, i did. i used to do all the bookkeeping, before i lost my sight. i did all the bookkeeping. and er all the ordering and dealt with the auditors and the bank and that sort of thing. i did all that, he hated that sort of thing. in fact he didn't understand it at all. which left him free to do all the practical work which he really liked. he also did weddings as well. now he, he liked doing that sort of thing. and he was very, he was artistic too. but that was where the trouble came when i lost my sight he was left with both the practical side and the er bookkeeping as well which he didn't understand at all. yes. where did you live when you first got married? did you erm have a place of your own? yes, we did. we had a little erm er house up in grove, just er on the er edge of park. er and then when the second world war started er we, we had to leave there and come down to the er sh to the sh shop really. it was a lock-up shop. er and we lived above the shop then. well we lived there er yes the whole, whole time, all our married life. he did move away for a while er and had er workrooms away from the, from the house and i just ran the, the shop. but erm when i lost my sight then he had to close that down and come back so we were all under one roof again . mm. where was it that you had to move from during the war? well it, it i expected that he would have to go and i should have to manage on my own and it was quite er er a, a way to come down to the shop. we had a shop as well. er and it was much easier to be living on the premises, that's what we felt at the time. erm i think perhaps it was a good move in a, in a, in a way, i was, when the children did come along i you know i was, we were al i was all together under one roof. the business was there and, and i was there when he went. so it, it was it turned out for the best. did he go into the army? no, he didn't go into the army. erm he, i think what he really must have had was er a sort of mild form of polio when he was young and he'd got a shoulder, not completely paralysed but it was partially paralysed. so erm they wouldn't take him in the army but he, he was in the more or less he was, he was in the map making department. which was we well rather up his er his you know his, his own work ph photography. it was all tied up together. he went down to and trained here and then he came back and they made all the maps there. they always knew where the next offensive was because they were making maps for them. and meanwhile you were still running the business during the war? that's it yes. i kept all the connections up. we couldn't do an awful lot because it was er er classed as a luxury business er and so we, we couldn't get an awful lot of photographic paper or films or anything of that sort but we managed to keep the connections up with what we could get. er it wasn't too bad, it was there when the war ended. there was something to start building on again which was a good thing. so do you mean that your husband was able to continue with this a bit as well as working for ? yes. just a bit, yes. he did he didn't do very much but i'd already learnt the business by then. er i could er print and do the enlarging and develop the films. erm so really and truly i i you know with what we'd got it was sort of carrying the business on in a very sort of low way and instead of going round collecting the work it was all done through the post. it was all postal work then. did people want any special kind of photos during the war that they hadn't asked for previously? yes. it was all er er sort of er er yes mainly snapshots we used to get of er new babies, children and this sort of thing. er you see but the men a a at the front the that's what they wanted. snaps to send to the er the fathers and er boyfriends er at, at the front, that's what they really wanted. er anything special you know that sor children growing up and you know fathers not seeing them or wives having babies wh which you know they hadn't seen perhaps till they were two years old. so there was a lot of er, in fact we used to try to keep the films for er young couples with, with children. it was sort of, so few came through it was very much sort of under the counter . you, you kept them and you tried to sort of let people have them who you felt deserved them you know most. it was very difficult . but it was very difficult for these for young, young couples with the er er men at the front and perhaps they'd only just got married before the war and it was very hard lines on them. i often think er and then of course you see if, if they er the airmen, their wives used to try and get er digs near where the aerodromes were so they could see their menfolk. er and i always used to think it must be extremely, they'd hear them going out at night and you know then count the planes coming back. i often think i wish you know we could capture some of those again i think it would jolly well i, i, i wish government could, could really sort of kn know what it was like. i don't think they'd be so anxious to go to war if they did . it was the young people th th that i think were hit the most. it was ver very hard on, on them. and er can you remember any particular incidents that happened during the war? erm no, well we were very lucky in , we didn't have an awful lot of air raids, we had it over the lace market and er and near. but er we, we didn't have any really bad air attacks at all. we were very fortunate but i do remember the guns used to go off and i, when my so my son was born the, the guns were going off all the time from the castle. they, they we they had some guns on the castle and they were , i suppose there must have been enemy planes over. you could always, you, you always used to say we could tell the german planes coming over er they'd got a certain sound because they were so heavily ladened . and er you, you, you could hear them and used to say, oh yes, that's a german plane. but we were very lucky in , we, we didn't really have an awful lot of erm of air raids at all. and as a mother at the time di do you remember having problems getting food and things during the war? er, yes. i i it wasn't easy but it was very fair. i suppose in the first world war, i don't remember an awful lot about it, we wer always seemed to have enough to eat but er i, i think the second world war whatever there was it was fairly distributed. we were all rationed but we, we everybody got their fair share. and er really when you sort of l look at the children who were born during the war and were brought up during the war, they're all pretty strong and healthy. so th they couldn't er have done too badly. i mean bananas were, were, only children had bananas and er orange juice, you, you got that at the clinic and cod liver oil, terrible horr horrible cod liver oil. but er they, they did sort of th it was fairly distributed there's no, eggs you'd get perhaps one egg a week on each ration book. and then they had a points system which meant that er you had so many points and you could, there were certain foods that were just on points and er you could choose to spend your points on whatever you wanted. you could get er pineapple jam, that was i tins of pineapple jam, that was one of the things. and tomato jam, which wasn't too bad really. but we've never heard of it since . er and not many fresh eggs but we did get dried eggs which were, were, it wasn't a bad substitute but it wasn't the same as a fresh egg but you could scramble them and you could use them for cooking but then you see there was very little fat. erm you could get er er margarine. i think we had two ounces of margarine a week on each ration book, and butter i think we had an ounce of butter a week, and meat was very scarce. good afternoon mr good afternoon to you. now you're going to tell me all about your experiences in the police aren't you? yes what can you remember about your first week, or when you joined the force? well i have made some notes since you j can i just walk down and get them i want this to happen i made some notes, here. now, now i joined the force in june nineteen twenty three at ipswich and the force strength at that time was eighty seven, which was one thousand, no one constable per thousand population. now the training at that time was nil. yes. er on appointment, like other recruits, i had to serve the first month on night duty. the night duty was made up of nineteen areas, they made the nineteen beats, and er i had to go with older policemen learning each of the beats. often i had to learn two beats per night. i was always with an older policeman. yes not often the same policeman, and i gained that experience when i found the way that they were examining property, the way they attended to accidents and street disturbances and they were pretty tough customers and i learnt a lot. now that went on for a month. now, the first twelve months of anybody's service is a period of probation. yes. during that twelve months you get extra supervision and at the during that period the chief constable is entitled to dispose of your service at a week's notice, but after you get over the probationary period only the watch committee could dispose of your services, the onus was on the watch committee. well now, during this twelve months i went out on the beats etcetera, i just merely picked it up, if i was in doubt about anything my sergeant would put me right and the atmosphere, the amount of discipline was quite severe, for instance, i always, we had always to parade at least ten minutes before the hour to be acquainted with what had happened since we were last on duty. yes we had no facilities for food in the police station. we had to take our own meals at all times, even when we had cups of tea we had to take to the station our own tea, sugar and milk, but there was always a large kettle during the winter months on a coal fire, and during the summer months on a gas ring. the only thing given to us at all in that line was every policeman on night duty was given a pint of coffee. oh yes. every policeman was given a pint mug and on night duty we were, haven't, we, each of us was given one pint of coffee. to keep you awake? yes, and erm no food whatever was obtainable in the police station. when we arrested people, if we arrested them and if they were in the police station for many hours, the only food that they were given was supplied by weavers restaurant, just inside street. now they were provided with a meal for which the police, at that time paid sixpence, and for the sixpence for breakfast they got a thick round of bread, margarine, a piece of cheese and a mug of tea. for sixpence. now they got much the same thing for the dinner, but if the prisoner had got any money of his own, and if he cared to contribute an extra sixpence he got a hot meal at midday. yes. for his tea, for the sixpence he got bread, bread, margarine and either a piece of cheese or some jam. that's what happened. and erm, yes well now as i tell you we had no motor cars at all, we had about fifteen bicycles, which of course were ridden, twenty four hours a day, and after each night-duty, through riding over rough paths and etcetera they used to get punctured and damaged. your own puncture? then the next morning, they were taken for repairs at a garage in hyde park corner. he was the man who supplied the new bicycles, raleighs, and he undertook to keep them in repair. and of course they got knocked about a lot. well now i, bull's eye lamps, that we carried at night, they were merely paraffin oil lamps. yes. and during the winter months we wore overcoats and capes. yes. we used to be glad to put our hands underneath the cape onto the bull's eye for a little warmth. yes. well, the er night duty was difficult. we had a lot of walking to do, bicycles were only used by the policemen on the outskirts of the borough. they had such a long distance that they were allowed to have a police bicycle. well now that happened, all of this happened in nineteen twenty three. well now in nineteen twenty six we had the general strike, and the conditions in ipswich were so violent that our borough police we couldn't cope with them, and our chief constable, he had to apply to the home office and he got permission to have men from east suffolk and west suffolk police, cambridge county police, huntingdon police sent some, and they were billeted in hotels in the town centre. i see. and what these strikers were doing, they got really out of hand, they were overturning motor cars, what few there were. they were preventing millers from sending out flour from our two mills, cranfields and gibbons. they just wouldn't let them come out with the flour. they the da the harbour master's men at the lock gates came out on strike. there was nobody to open and close the lock gates. yes. we some special policemen to go down there and open these gates, and of course, you can just imagine that the policemen who came into ipswich, they were pretty rough in their dealing with the strikers. yes. we in the borough, we dare not be rough because we had to remain in ipswich after the strike was over. and would, would the people they were being rough with know the difference? yes, they got frightened. there was some policemen from cambridge county and they were handpicked, two brothers came among that little group, and they each weighed over twenty stone, these two brothers, and of course everybody referred to them, as the two tinies. yes. they were stationed at a poli number two police station, which was the custom house at the ipswich docks, and they spent most of their time when they were off duty just lying on stretchers lying about, then of course evening time, when there was er more activity, course they came out and my word, if they told strikers they were not to go to this part of the town or road. they didn't. if they were told they didn't go, they certainly got some help. it didn't matter t who it was. it didn't matter if they were town councillors or what, if these policemen said not this way, this way and they said no i live this way, they got a clip in the ear as quick as anything. the ipswich borough police couldn't have done that. yes. no, no could, could, could the ordinary people tell the difference between the borough police yes and the county police by the uniform? yep no, no well they would have different cap badges in the helmet. and that was the only difference? that was the only difference, the cap badges they all differed you see. well now, because we were in the ipswich borough police, we were in the fortunate position of knowing that we would serve our full thirty years in ipswich, which enabled us to buy our own houses through building society. our children had in, they went to schools here, and what with the friends, and neighbours and former schoolfriends we got on wonderfully well with the general public. yes. but when i talk about that good feeling between police and public, it, it mattered more for the local policeman. for instance, i was one of several born in ipswich you see, and i had advantage over a lot of men who were released from the guards to come here. you see, you take mr , splendid policeman, he came straight from the guards into lodgings in ipswich. no. now, when he became a detective, he hadn't got the advantage of the local knowledge that i had. yes. but i was in a position to help him as i was his senior. that's right, yes. and that was why he said, and he's always said, he owes me such a lot. that's right. but he was such a hardworking, keen man. yes. i was only too pleased to help him. help him oh er he was a rare worker. yes. and because he was only in lodgings, he felt in his spare time that he would come with us if we were visiting lodging houses or something. he would be glad to come with us. i didn't like taking his spare time. yes. now when i tell you about lodging houses, we had four registered lodging houses in ipswich that they had at that time. pretty rough. and what exactly was a lodging house, bed and breakfast or? no no no just a combination sleeping and combination only. yes. now, the main lodging house in ipswich was afterwards taken over by the salvation army hostel. yes. but before the salvation army took it over, it was a, a borough council property, which was leased to a f jewish company in london, and they used to send a manager, at this lodging house and these were then let nightly at about ten pence per night. i see, yes. and all they di provided, but there was a big kitchen where they could fry their own food, make their own teas and so on, but the sal the, the house proprietors, they didn't provide any food whatever. they were required to leave their beds and get out of the hostel by nine o'clock in the morning, and they were not expected to hang about any more until about five or more in the evening. so if they hadn't got a job they got nothing oh no of course ver very few of them had got any work. no. it, they were at these lodging houses because they hadn't got the work, nowhere else to go. they was only, they'd either got to pay for accommodation at a lodging house or go to the workhouse, they called them then, which is the casual ward, and at the casual ward they were required to bath on admission, which a lot of them didn't like, they were compelled to do certain work. yes. and, they were often not released until they'd been at this casual ward for two days. now some of them used to find that a bit irksome. where, where actually was the casual ward? well which is now where the borough general hospital is at . was the casual ward part of the hospital? yes. i see, yes. yes, yes that was run separately, but part? but, but the same building. there was a half of the premises, and the casual wards there they, course i tell you they used to have to bath and then they used to have to do chopping wood and sort of work like, like that. useful work. yes, casual work and when some of these casuals felt that they didn't want to stop there two days, they used to tell the authorities that they had got promise of work at, at yarmouth and and could we go soon, you see. and of course the authority was glad to get shot of them, and then the tramps, they used to go round the country, and they used to walk from one village to another and mainly, people who had arrived in ipswich casual ward, had previously been the night at stowmarket. they used to walk the twelve miles stowmarket to ipswich, they used to go to the police station after five o'clock, and they used to get a ticket, which they used to take up to the casual ward. i see. now policemen, we used to have to give these blessed people these tickets, and we used to have a book, and they just merely gave name, age, occupation, which was nearly always labourer, where, and they had to tell us where they came from and where they intended going to, and more often that was from stowmarket to , or the other way round. yes. and we found that over a period of, oh about a couple of months, the same people almost used to come round. go round in a circle. they did nothing else. and we go us got used to them. we didn't like them coming in the police station, they used to come into our parade room where our men were having food, and you can imagine them coming in a bit lousy and so on. yes, as i was going to say verminous. yes, i mean you know they were not too welcome. then occasionally when we had houses broken into and so on, if it was thought that a tramp could have been responsible, it used to be a great help if we gave out nine tickets for tramps and only eight of the nine were admitted to the casual ward, then we should clamp down of course on the one who failed to turn up. the reason some of them failed to go to the causal ward is because they used to do a little bit of begging, and if they'd got enough money they would perhaps pay to go into a common lodging house. yes. well now. you were telling me about the common lodging houses. yes, well anyhow that, that more or less covers the early part of me being on the beat. well then you, you were saying you had to visit each of those four lodging houses yes and i interrupted you about the casual ward, so you didn't really finish that? yep, i'd finished the lodging houses, they were rough, my word they were rough, they used to get drunk and fighting, and of course they used to be amusing really they used to get fighting at a lodging house quite close to the dock and after when the windows was smashed, we would find that they'd been temporarily repaired with a coal sack taken from the coal yard next door, and all that sort of business, and anyhow, nothing particular out of the way happened until three years later of course when we got the general strike, and the strikers used to meet outside the labour institution headquarters in street. yes. that's where the union headquarters were you know, and because i was a local man and had worked at cranfield loading trucks at the dockside, i knew, knew a lot of the dock labourers, and they knew me, and i used to know each morning what the strikers were likely to do, where they were gonna hold up eastern counties buses and so on i used to know all that, and of course the duty inspectors used to purposely send me along. to find out. to find out you see. well now it was largely, i think as a result of all that that three years later, now that was in nineteen twenty seven towards the latter of nineteen twenty seven, there was an opportunity for a detective to be appointed on a series of promotions. superintendent retired, he was replaced by of course detective inspector , yes. sergeant was made inspector, was made detective sergeant and of course i became detective constable. yes. and when the promotions were made before the watch committee, i was the last one to go in, and the chairman of the watch committee, that was john , he said to me , chief constable has recommended that you be given a trial with the detective staff. he said, we agree with that, he said we have decided that you will go on the detective staff on probation for a period of six months, and that means that if you like the detective staff and, and if the detective staff like you you will continue. well now, at the end of that six months i'd had varied success, sometimes i had poor periods when i wasn't detecting much, then i would have a little break, do better, but at the end of the six months nobody told me whether i was stopping there, but twenty years later i did go back to uniform as an inspector. yes, yes. inspector, but anyhow, now when i went on the detective staff i'd only been on the force just over three years yes. and i, i've felt at that time and since i went on too early. i don't really think at that time i would have had enough experience to justify going on the staff. i, i they must have thought you could do it. i couldn't type, we hadn't got anybody doing the office work in the detective staff, the detective sergeant used to do most of it, if he was not available i used to have to get an older detective to type a report out for me, and because i was a junior, they were not so careful in typing my reports as they were theirs. yeah. and i mean it was a difficult start, and i was in fact a junior detective for five and a half years before any alteration was made in the staff, there was no promotions or leaving so that as junior detective for five and a half years, i got all jobs that nobody else wanted unless unless, unless if i was in the detective office on my own and there was a decent job reported, i went straight out on it. sometimes i was lucky, sometimes i wasn't for instance, if anybody came to the enquiry after the report that the theft of a bicycle from outside the library. yes. our detective office was two flights of stairs above the enquiry office, and they used to ring up to our office and say i'm sending a mr upstairs, he's lost his bicycle from the library, i'm showing him up. when he knocked on our door the older detectives wouldn't answer it. so guess who did! now, my desk was not too far away, after he'd knocked twice i used to get it. it was a hopeless job, go to the library nobody would know what happened to bicycles, and also, we always circulated a list of stolen property to all pawnbrokers, jewellers, garage owners, and cycle agents, about every week. not only property stolen in ipswich, but from surrounding areas, and it was a long job. cycling in you know, and of course because nobody else wanted the job, sometimes we were supposed to share it with another, and nearly everybody else, except me, would be too big you see. they'd all be doing something else. or that they'd got to attend court or something. oh yes. so i finished up doing the lot. well now, although it was not much more of a job really than an errand boy's, but as i did that for five and a half years i got to know the people at the pawnbrokers, the cycle agents i got to know them so well, i knew the staff, i got to know the people who were pawning clues and that regularly, i was getting more information every year. so it did you a lot of good although of course it did i, i, i was able to, i was able to pick up, and i used to clear up crimes which i know that some of the others wouldn't have cleared up at that time. mm everybody liked to get in the limelight. yes. if a very serious offence was reported, the detective inspector was , well he used to go to deal with it personally because it was very important. if he found after two or three days that he wasn't really making much headway, he would then, after he'd left the police courts, say to me i think you'd better go down street or somewhere and see if you can find see if you can find out who's spending money down that area, and then a occasionally, not, not too often, jobs that he's fell back on and dropped, i've been able to get a little start on, and very foolishly i used to tell him sometimes of the progress i was making that was where i made a mistake. that was a mistake, was it? he used to say well now i'll come with you, and from that time on, after the arrests were made. who got the limelight? he got it. yes. oh my word, and of course the more important the people the more he wanted it. that's right. but against that, although i know that he'd took three or four very good jobs that i ought to have had, but he was a very, very good detective, a hard working inspector. i've taken suspects to the police station when i haven't been able to break them down, and i've told my inspector exactly what's happened, he's got the whole picture and then he's closed the door and called the man in, closed the door. and, if he was a man with, who had never been in trouble before, and perhaps with a young family, and through being hard-up and through illness or any other reason, he would speak to him in a fatherly manner. yes. now that you're in trouble i want to help you, you've got children, i've got children, i know what the position is, tell me what you got into and see if i can help you out. of course they would for a start, i haven't done anything, all that sort of business, but he was extremely good and i think the reason that he'd got admissions quicker than we did, was partly by virtue of the fact that he was the boss of the department. yes. that's what i really think as well, but he was extremely good, and i used to listen sometimes to the way that he interviewed people. get some ideas. and er yes, i used to try and follow him as much as i could. well then of course, i've told you about having these trials up and down, and then, out of the people i've dealt with mostly of them were local criminals, i should think nearly ninety percent of crime in ipswich was committed by local people. we didn't even take fingerprints in those days. no. if a stranger was picked up in ipswich. with a long record we knew nothing about him. we used to send them to norwich, take them to norwich prison, with the request that they be fingerprinted. fingerprinting section in your own ? oh no we hadn't. you had to take them to norwich. at that time we had, we didn't have any fingerprinting. no. but, we knew all our locals you see, we knew all their histories. yes. but when a stranger was picked up for house breaking or shop breaking or something, a complete stranger, we used to send them to norwich pending further enquiries, and with a request that they be fingerprinted, and of course they used to fingerprint, send to scotland yard, we used to then get the record if they had a record with a photograph, and all their previous convictions. we hadn't even got a photographer. oh dear. you knew, you knew your local criminals, but you haven't got any pictures of them. no we hadn't, we hadn't got a photographer. so when scotland yard sent us photographs of criminals that we were dealing with, we used to have to take this descriptive form and photograph to walters the photographers in plane, and he charged sixpence to copy the photograph. goodness. it doesn't seem believable. it doesn't does it? but i mean you, you just imagine, we've got no cars, no photographer, no. and er when i tell you that i went to the detective staff in nineteen twenty seven, then we started with our first mobile help. the watch committee agreed that we should have, not we, the force, should have a motorbike combination. now mr he is the garage proprietor, who used to supply the bicycles, he supplied the motorcycle and sidecar, that was a start. the watch committee then, this was what, round about nineteen thirty perhaps, then agreed that we should have a police car. now that car was bought, that was kept at garage, which was about quarter of a mile distance from the police station, kept in the garage. who drove it? there were only two policemen allowed to drive it. police constable george and p c jack . and they, they had had some experience or were they engineers or something oh they had i must tell you now that at the time that we hadn't got a car at all, on the occasion of a royal visit, or some very important action being taken, my chief constable used to hire a chauffeur driven car from mr of lane in ipswich. oh yes. he was a very smart man and he always provided a very smart car, and the first policeman to drive the police car was his own chauffeur, who left him and joined the police force. i see, well, well. so that er his former chauffeur joined the force, p c , he was in, he drove of course our first police car, well which he shared with p c , then when our cars got to number two, three and so on, he eventually came up, so that he retired as inspector, traffic inspector. traffic division. he, he simply came up with the number of cars. traffic division, yes. yeah yeah and er what was i going to tell you, i told you about , i talked about we had nine pawnbroker's shops, i didn't did i, but that we did have nine pawnbroker shops in ipswich. there were six lodging houses were there? yes, that's in addition to the lodging houses. means of communication. oh not very good. not very good at all. no walkie-talkies. no, no nothing like that at all. there were very few places in the town where we could use telephones especially at night. very difficult indeed, you didn't like calling up people at a private house and ask if we could use the phone. what about post offices? so what they did eventually, they put sort of call boxes occasionally, in different parts of the borough so during the night you could ring up the station. you could ring up the station. yes. now i, i know on periods of night duty we had two fixed points. there was always a policeman on the . yes. and that was quite a good idea, because late at night following wedding parties and other , if anybody was behaving in an disorderly manner and people were returning home, they would always tell the policeman that they saw that a rowdy crowd were coming along. further down the road. but they wouldn't walk a few yards into the police station and tell anybody. no but they wouldn't take that trouble, but they'd always speak to the uniform policemen, if or if they heard anyone smashing glass, but they wouldn't go out of their way. no, i understand. but the relationship was extremely good, i think that you might say that for many years in my service, it was almost a case of the law abiding citizens in ipswich coping with the wrongdoers. we got plenty of help . i suppose that's the best way really. oh, we got plenty of help, and of course, it's always been said that you don't reveal a man's past until he's been found guilty of an offence, but our magistrates were all local shopkeepers you know know them as well. and they used to know the, the wrongdoers, and when alleg allegations were made about any violence on the police, they would know the policeman pretty well, and more often than not they could tell whether a policeman might be of the type who might provoke anybody, they knew the policeman very well indeed, and my word if the policeman was assaulted in my early days, he'd got to have a jolly good excuse not to be sent to prison. yes. the magistrates, they, if they were satisfied that it was, i don't sound very no, no, clip of the ear, nothing like that, but if if you'd got a black eye. yes. and you'd got a little bit of plaster you, you could show the court the next morning, he was going to prison. the magistrates would tell you that they were du they were going to do their utmost to pr to support the police at all times. yes. and,i must get back now to communication. communication yes, so that we used to have the difficulty, and we used to rely on the odd person, railway people, drivers and their guards, they used to be knocked up during the night for early duty, by call boys, we used to make use of them if we wanted a message sent anywhere. you know, anyhow. yes, yes. but er we, we had quite a difficulty, very, very difficult, we used to have to walk a long way before we could get to a telephone. now, you all had whistles, did you use those much? oh we had whistles, and strangely enough, very seldom did we use them, simply because there were other traffic about that time if you were a long way away, er you might be nearly to , if you blew your whistle, there were nobody to hear you, i mean people in houses, and they were only few and far between. i, i, i don't hardly think that i can remember blowing a whistle. i don't really. yes. we, have i told you about the policeman who was fixed permanently at the ? yes. the town centre. there was also a policemen all night on bridge, all night. he was relieved, of course, by the policemen from the neighbouring beats. was that because of the docks? yes, that faced the dock, and in case of fire or any emergency, he used to always be there and he'd be able to see it. in addition to watching the dock there'd be a policeman on patrol at the dock. yes. but he would be fixed at the bridge. and, people from the town centre who were going home to stoke had to go over the bridge. yes. and the if there was a street disturbance or a quarrel in the house everybody over there used to come to stoke bridge for the policeman. yes. and er, we used to get all sorts of calls. supposing he got called away from his post would there be somebody ready to take his place? no, no, if you got called away there wouldn't be anybody to take over until the next relief if, if the man was coming up the dock with two yo yo well you wouldn't be able to get in touch with him either. no. but if he was to come on at three o'clock in the morning, the other man called away wouldn't be replaced. no. and er you used to get recalled for all sorts of things, often a distur family disturbances. yes. i was called away one morning,somebody came along to me and said will you come along to street, there's a chap playing up, old harry, he's trying to build a shed or something and it's two o'clock in the morning, none of us can sleep, do come along with me. well, i went along to street and this chap was hammering away, and the people were swearing from windows, and i realized the chap was mental. oh. oh, i knew that that night i was in a very difficult position, if he had been on the public highway i could have taken him to the police station and taken him i could have taken him if he's on the public highway, i could have taken him to the police station. but not in his own garden. no, and i had i er i had tried to appeal to him to be quiet, he said well i've got to build this shed, i said well it don't have to be during the night when other people are trying to sleep, he said well that's up to them, and he started hammering again, while i was talking to him, and then i kept on and on and eventually, i think while i was talking to him i'd kept him quiet while i was talking to him. mm and then i told told his wife to get the doctor, and that sort of business in, but er imagine a man knocking up his shed during the night he must have thought he was noah. no on another occasion what would you have done with him if you had been able to arrest him? as he was mental, i mean would you have taken him to a hospital or the station? no, no, no, take him to the police station. yes. and then get your police sergeant. i see yes, mm. and if he come along he would want to know who the man's doctor was. yes. so he got his history, and then a magistrate can certify him and he can be handed over to er what is now st clements hospital. they used to call it the asylum, years ago. yes, yes. but they changed the name of it. well then while i was serving as a detective, you can just imagine i made plenty of arrests, and i got along reasonably well with most people, but there was one man i hated yes i hated him, i, i'd only been a detective i should think for a period of about, oh five or six months, and a man, he called on the reverend who was the, the vicar of st. mary where and this man said that he was a lay reader, and that he'd retired, he'd come back from australia, and he though that he would like to help out in the parish. reverend thought oh yes he'd be very very glad of you, so he said i'd be prepared to visit the sick, i'd do anything like that and he did in fact start doing some visiting, and among other people that he called upon was a person living in road, not very far really from where i'd been born and i knew the area well. yes now he called at this house and said that he was er visiting for for the church. and while he was talking to the woman he saw in the hall an elderly woman, and he said to the woman at the door, is that your mother, she said oh yes she's with me now, she used to live at woodbridge. he said well did she get the er widow's loaf? she said you never get anything here, she said she did get the widow's loaf once when she was at woodbridge, he said she'll have the widow's loaf now. and he went on just across the road to road co-op and he bought a small loaf of bread which at that time would be about tuppence, and gave the old lady this small loaf about ten days afterwards he called again, he said, he said i've come to see you again, now are you alright and so on, he said i've done a foolish thing this morning, he said i'm responsible for the flowers, altar flowers, he said and i've left my wallet at my lodgings, and my landlady has gone down to for the day. he said con man. he said i'm properly on the spot, so he, so the woman volunteered, she said well can i help you, i've got my fortnight's rent money here, so she let him have the rent money. course i don't have to tell you any more, she didn't see him no more. he then went and called on a mrs who'd got a confectionery shop, corner of road and road and a hard luck story there, he got a few pound for doing out the sacrament, he got some money from her. and then when they eventually complained, when other people were involved, complained, reverend he hadn't seen this chap either. his name was , but i found he'd been lodging in a house in road close to the railway station. yes. and when i saw the landlady there she said that she did have a mr there but he'd left a few days ago, didn't know where he'd got to. i said well now can i see his room, she said well really i've cleared the room since he's gone, but i found some papers in the room, which indicated that he was a convict on licence. yes, yes. well that gave me a start of course, so immediately i got a warrant out, and he, some while afterwards he was picked up in london. well they, i had to go to road police station, london, it was quite good, the detective took, took me around that little area and er then when i got ready to collect to take him to liverpool street station, i saw him for the first time, man about sixty one and he'd got two suitcases, one lighter than the other, and while i was signing for him and his property i said to him, you take that light one and i'll take the bigger one with the view to getting on the bus to get to liverpool street st but the inspector there was very good, he said i'm not going to oh and i said to you take the light case i'll take the high one, he said i can't carry anything, i got a rupture. ooh. the inspector said i'm not going to allow you to leave here with a prisoner and those two cases. yes, with both hands occupied what could you do? yes, so he then called in a constable, who was living in a section house nearby. he said, now go to go to your section house get a sports jacket or something, and go with this police officer, he said i'll get a police van, he said go with this police officer to liverpool street station, he said and take charge of this prisoner while he gets a ticket, for ipswich. very wise, he might have disappeared. he he said get that, he said and go with him onto the train and see him safely in the compartment, ascertain the time of arrival in ipswich, and go and telephone ipswich police telling them that they were to meet this on arrival at ipswich, and i thought that our chief constable really well one of the things we did do immediately after the er youth consultation is that we erm, we erected a paid for a skate board ramp at erm one of the youth centres in, in harlow, so you know, we we creating that facility, but erm, what, you, so you your question was more directed at providing more of those kind of facilities . well, providing , mainly because you see a lot of the youngsters with their skate boards, but they're skating through the town, all over the place. i mean, a lot, i can say with on the youths, i think were doing, were, were, were walking with young people at the local levels of various places in the town you know, we've got, we haven't got as many resources as we want yet, but were still trying to do that, well i actually feel, on youth we're doing quite a good job you know, expensive job you know, that we are, and, and all that concerns you raise, were certainly aware of. the problem is solving all the problems, providing all the facilities in, in the situation where it's diminishing resources, i mean we wouldn't be actually be carrying out this review, in the way that were gonna do it, if we didn't have the problem with the money we've got, you know. right, time marches on we've got five minutes before this meeting closes, so if you've got another question, i'll take one more question for chris and then she's off the hook. any more questions? i could tell you something about the, if you've got the gordon bennett . norman, that erm, one of the at the moment. yes. was going to have a facility for young people, if you remember, it was suggested that the restaurant was used for young people. with still not loosing site of the idea of having a cafe, bar, coffee for people, one of the things that were, that gonna look through and explore explore actually is er setting up some kind of coffee bar facilities at kingsmoor, the play barn, there next to them. erm, but that's really . i know it's one area.. one would think , one of the things that young people decide was that they wanted facilities in their area. in their area. area you see. that's is what i . could i come in here chris? yeah. at the, at the last search, at the last highway committee, although were not having, having, having the, the full service at the envisage in the first instance, a lot is going to be done, is going to be some more erm shelters directed there and one or two other facilities and somebody has even suggested that we put a toilet there which is a very good idea.. which is a very good idea, but, what they, what the er, what the council have done is. can i, can i madam please, if i may. what is, what is happening at the moment is although they can't afford the money for the full, for the full treatment they are making an allocation of money to improve matters round, round that area, which will be er, cos i, i told them that some of the pensioners were,w walking round by the bankment, it's pouring of rain, which is perfectly true and that er the engineer should go round and see for himself and plus the fact how many of these people ever travel by bus, or do they always go by car, no, and also i brought up about bus shelters and all those sort of things, but any way, there will be some improvements for the bus station in the future. right, am i let off the hook now? yeah, your off the hook. thank you very much, thank you chris.. i'm sure the, i'm sure they'll all go away very when you, before you came. . they . thanks a lot. well now, now you know that when i disappear with a placard sign, i don't just appear with a placard, we are doing things behind the scenes. that's right, thanks a lot chris. okay . that's great, thanks very much. right, were now on other reports. any body got any thing else to report, with got a few minutes left? yes, no, any other business, you can all go, your all off the hook.. they'll start arguing now. come on a wednesday, but i think i'll come on thursday and friday . i'll shall be there friday, pauline, i, i can't make it thursday. are there any people who can come thursday? thursday?. anybody thursday? at the market. at the market, yeah, yeah. you've got one or two there, look, that come along.. you alright in there .. don't go over doing it. what about you, could you? no good. ah. i wish i hello! i wish i could do that. oh. well, what can i do for you today, agnes? i'll tell you. i don't know if it's old age or not, oh, it's getting worse. i've been, i can't even fasten my bra at the back. bad as that? that's . actually i've got, i've got er oruval. and i take that for that sciatica. mhm. mm. is that good for that? no? no. see i didn't, i, i, and he gave me, i was here, oh i don't know if it was about a fortnight ago i was here. anyway i wasn't well. it mhm. was my ear. was it you i s no it wasn't you i seen about my ear, was it? fortnight ago? see i no, a fortnight, how long ago was it ? i saw you about nearly five weeks ago. in fact more than that. no. no it was after that. it was after that i seen somebody. it was doctor, was it doctor ? . aye. i just took whoever i could, cos i said i'll take er and it was doctor right. and er it was my ear. aha. and, and this, i j er i just wasn't well. i said right. i don't know. do you think it's the change of life that's me? no! because i just don't keep well. er and i'm taking right. and they're coming i don't think i'm taking for a couple of months, and then i take them every fortnight. mhm. and they're kind of lasting. if you know what i mean they're la do you think that is? it's going away? right. that, that could that could be it disappearing. hopefully it is. but as i say, i've er but somebody says to me, they've go here i go again, talking about what everybody says they've got. they said they've got that brufen, for this? this arm. n no. no. is that not for that either? no that's, that's all, that's for arthritis. is it? that's a neuralgia. that's a neuralgia could it, do you pain you've got . do you think that mhm. do you think it's yeah. a neuralgia pain? that's a neuralgia pain you've got, that's brufen wouldn't make much difference to that agnes. still in ? yeah,. er, oh, it's, see actually i wondered if it was a frozen shoulder? i thought that if, you know how sometimes no no. you, see when i, i cannae turn, that's see when i go i, i cannae you wouldn't be able to do that if you had a frozen shoulder. wouldn't i? no. i can, i can actually get it to there, but see when i aye, well, if you had a frozen shoulder you wouldn't get it past there. well, i can get it past there but i couldn't lift it up. that's right. there's no way i can lift it up. no, that's now this one, now, i can go like that. mhm. that's right. you know, this one's all that's right. and it seems to be more in this just one place. mhm.? oh. see if i do that? and ah! is that the good bit? yeah, that's that's the good bit. that's, that's where the nerve comes up near the skin. just down here. is it? and then it goes yeah, that down the front of your shoulder, see, right down. right well you see i would have thought if you'd have done it there, that would have been, but no, but see when you that's it. that's it all there. right in there? right in there. now this is the latest stuff from the the hospital for killing the neuralgia. is it? mm. now, no more than three of these in a day, and you must stay on it for at least a month. right. a whole month, agnes. are you giving me a month's supply? mhm. yeah. cos , how much, four seventy five now for a prescription, is yeah, well it not? it's aye. it's not so bad when you get one, but see when you get two? or three. er it's terrible. cos i had my er line, it's due up yeah. er on, and i'll tell you another thing i've been taking. well, the easiest one to show you is there. yeah. yeah. i thought he fought well actually. just cruised it through. that's what i said. oh he did. yeah. aye. i watched it in first and i went and they all say you get in there to finish off as quick as they can don't they? i wa i watched it when i got home, and i don't know how that judge give that other one a free, a free round to him. no! never hurt him like no way! he never go near him. yeah, i'd hate to have been in they was playing a lot of punches and he weren't, they were hitti going into his up there. yeah! air in his gloves. according to eubanks so it actually hit where it did, i bet one out of four were hitting. sort of like had his big the shit out by the way. and it's no swearing. no swearing yeah, you can swear on it. hooker, hooker, hooker! well, fuck me ! i don't, i don't wanna pay for another one. it's deano's, it's not mine course, everybody'll know then. like when it does it's there somewhere. yeah. you taping? yeah. can we have a different name this time. you what? . i think they're all . eh? that's what you call it?? eh? i'd be owing to the stage mike! won't be! if your lass sees it cos she thinks you've gone shop. you see, ours is more interesting than robin's. be fucking handy! yeah, well you're getting ready to make a bi bid for that er, shearer. they won't let him go unless they're gonna replace him with a stag. more money though. well they're wanting eight hundred thousand well, to start with, he's going to southampton. lee martin's five hundred thou, robins is a million, dave moore's on loan at blackmoor, blackburn he's getting, he had a million quid in it for decided they want him. that's go there ain't no money ready to make a bid. have you calmed down like? you? but all i kept getting was thirty four thousand. what are you gonna do next year? thirty four thousand. thirty four thousand! fucking hell! but you wouldn't give me straight answer would you? well of course i would! i mean don't get anyone to get the bloody training man united not to er man united don't to the fans. i mean, leeds you've gotta find five hundred pound next year to get into no. ground. they've asked us. eh? two and a half million towards you know what i mean, they're thinking of the working man there aren't they? eh? and they think, do they, everybody who er own their businesses that go and watch leeds? you know,whe where does a working man get five hundred quid to go watch a bloody match! you know, i mean you have pay that over the season don't you? eh? it does for our lot, you know. well i'm going. take the money it's just to get our two and a half million. well you've gotta . but ward, five and a half million for a new stand. so it's gonna drop down but they're not, but over next ten seasons they only pay, they get hundred pound knocked off the season ticket. yeah. they get first choice for european cup tickets a lot of clubs seats play in that though. yeah, but i'm saying, that's how that's the deal is like, and it seems reasonable. but you put five hundred pound in a bank for seven years you'll get probably seven hundred pound back at end of it. anyway know what i mean ? they're not thick, they know what they're doing. oh aye. i know that. big money, that! well, they do but they said if they don't get it by a certain date look, we're all working men here aren't we? they'll leave it. could you afford five hundred pound to go and watch a match next year? working men? but they think of . well you know what i mean. i just hope that they be giving it support. just morning! morning! morning! morning! morning! morning. morning john! yeah. besides, if every club first division did that this season, there'd be a empty eh? ground next season. . they're useless! i bet it's sheffield united don't you? it might be. two. it'll be sheffield. that leeds game were a good'un though weren't it? er, leeds which one? er leeds, er wednesday game were a good'un weren't it? when i were down. what happened to ? ah! well go and get changed. ah. i've i got all my clothes in my car. yeah. got it! oh! another of them come in. that one? er coke. go on my son! go on! get in son! have got any place for yous. you're jealous! you what? where would he get in our team? everywhere. eh? must be wednesday's . he had his chance to show hisen in three games didn't he? and he got bloody well , he were chucked off, booked! they didn't they played him once. they'll all be after . two. did he? is it sheffield wednesday? eh? they usually do . get rid of the crap first. is that your new personal stereo? no, i'll explain it to you later. i'm just actually practising. what is it? what? let's see you. i cannae put it up . no. oh were up at the safeway? i'll explain it to you later.. well er no i've been picked out by the british market research bureau to what? do a survey? have you? aha. what's that, to do with the work? no, the woman called at the door not long ago. she's just, not long away. a well what d'ya mean survey? eh? do you get paid for it. no you get a a token twenty five pound voucher at the end of the survey from marks and spencers. and th do you have to ask people questions? no. no. no? just tape normal conversations which we're doing that er now. switch that off. aye. what did ya do at school? erm had my assembly today. did you? aha. what about you karen? di i did my assembly today. do you want to hear this? if you can guess it? what? right. . don't tell. up the brae, and o'er the top and doon the, eh er, up the brae and o'er the top and doon again and up the brae and o'er the top and doon i drop and that the day and there i stop . ooh! never heard that before. that's the letter n. but it's supposed to be an m, but it's a letter k. oh! it's, up the way and that. aha. and one of us did tam-o'shanter something like that. oh you did tam-o'shanter? i see. you had to sing oh flower of scotland. mhm. well it was . derek he's huge right! he like come up to here! yeah. erm erm laura seen his boxer shorts. no i never! you did. scott was looking at her and so was kay. he had his legs wide open ! so what kind of that's right. day did you have at work then? well you know i can't talk with these things. oh! we have a shy wife. just the same as when you're on video camera. i had a rubbish day. a rubbish day was it? i had this awful sore head. aha. and a sore head all day today. oh er so that was the 's day was it? aha. oh. then i went to the bank saw your wages. had a heart attack. aha. that was her. oh aye. oh aye, cos you're saving that for mary? no, i'm keeping it myself. i gave her copies. but that's the one she asked for weren't it? mhm. ah it's a nice photograph innit? so i'll it out. she wants three copies of that. one for her, one for the two grans. aha. so that's my own. cos i says to margaret well how much do i owe you then? she says, och! nothing. she says, i said i'd get it for you, and she says if you ask me aha. she says i get it done for you. oh that's nice, eh? lovely! aha. i says, och margaret how much do you want? cos i was just gonna pay for this then. she says nothing, never mind. oh oh. so i thought it was, i'm really pleased with it. aye. i thought it was nice. it's the best photo we've got of them two. but i said, it is, yeah, that's what i saying i mary was so delighted because i took it and let her see it. aye. ah! she says, that is lovely! she says, am i getting it? i says, aye, i'll give you a copy of it. i says, i'll get the negatives. aye. just put it into . she says well get me three copies of it. she's got frames up in the house that'll probably, will fit it. mhm. so,and did you see that? aye. the weatherseal windows? mm. the guy's coming. yeah, i'll get in touch . i'll give him a week. if he hasn't been in touch by phone in a week, i'll phone him. aye. because i was telling mary to see what she says don't tell them she says, that your she says, don't tell them that your windows are steamed up, she says, before you get the double glazing in. just tell them that's double glazing in. mhm. just get rid of the condensation for . what do you want to watch? have you seen i've seen all the ones before. eh? i've seen all the ones before. on wednesday night. taggart's on. taggart's at nine o'clock, i want to see that. but there must be something in the in the cabinet for you to watch. just have a i want look and see. oh god ! i thought you were going straight up to see if the actually, i was going to get up early and well, what i did and hoover them up, you know. was i gave my mum a lift because i, and d'ya know by the time he gets better what? because there quinine in it. oh aye, that ? no. no, it's not it's your, quinine is used for people like diarrhoea pe and people that have to take attacks and that, you know, how my mum takes ? aye. and she says quinine tablets. there was quinine and , and that's all there was, why you haven't had a . oh right. so, it's very difficult get, cos my boss wouldn't find it again, so she asked er, the women and she said has she had any? she says no, we don't have any of that this time. and she said, i tried to get that father- in-law there, she says, and i tried to get that for my daughter and i couldn't find, couldn't get it. she said, no. and she said, i find it's hard to get quinine in it,for diarrhoea. and er steven he does the erm, the he just has to take his quinine tablets. ah. right. so it is. and carole has to take the others, i think there's another ten in there. oh i'll definitely meet her. if that's what it's all about well we just won't bother, you know. but she managed to get me diet coke. er i mean, it's not that bad but she's . aha. is that thing still running? aye. yes. mum. mum. want to hoover in here? yeah. er, just put these things on. aye . some of the, there's your . yes. but i'm not buying a programme at half past four. what one? er the the the tape on one. what one's that again? er the one with the houses half past three. yeah. oh dear. oh . no, not if she's got it. such a chore of us putting messages back. yeah, but then i'm glad you've got one. eh? not if it does . what till the weekend? i don't know. er well i dunno. well you get bananas and apples and all did you? yep. as you know i'm trying to diet. aye. i know what you mean. and rather than sit and eat chocolate i can eat apples and fruit. ah, don't eat all the apples there. no. my mum gave me got loads of them as well, i'll eat the ones my mum gave me. well how can you go on a diet when you buying all this chocolate? well i got that, i got that for the wee ones. oh. so do you leave it switched on even when nobody's talking? ah well i, you can actually switch it on and off i suppose, but but do you walk about with it attached to you? aye. i'll have it in one of my pocket, pocket at work, you know, and the microphone are you gonna tell them or are you just gonna no, i'll tell them first, you know that i'm taking part in a survey, you know? oh aye. and er because there's maybe some people don't want their conversation taped. no i well i can erase it, you know, if they object mm mm. to it, right enough, you know but hopef and how how long hopefully does it last for? well each side's forty five minutes. i know, but when she's coming back to collect it? oh! er er a week tomorrow. half past four. i said yeah that's fine cos we'll er i'll be up and ready then i'll can go and get my dinner and go to my mother's, you know? aye. and, cos you're always back early on a friday. aye. so see how it goes. hopefully did you wonder what it was? i did actually, aye. ah, when you were walking about and said i'm trying this out i thought it was erm i thought our exercise bike had come. oh aye. yeah . by the way, to anybody that's listening to this, i'm not really huge but i put on five pounds since i stopped smoking. you were very good. just in ca just in case you're getting brave. just in case there's anything, och, i don't want a stranger to think that i'm built like an elephant! ooh! you're still the slim chick i knew in nineteen seventy four. i don't like though. oh oh . what? and you got your rangers shellsuit on, eh? see that, laura, put that in the freezer. yous allowed to wear at school? no. no they're not. are you? well they're not allowed to wear it at st bosworths. on you go. i no. got a eh? doing chips? aye. they had some chaps wearing it . i know, but he doesn't want you to wear rangers football things, or celtic football things er just like a tracksuit says that. i haven't got those. eh? and those. want bolognese? right. it's still on the top.. well, i saw her yesterday and that was ah. wait and see later. sure. where do these beans go? erm it's, the bottom one i think. oh! can have that for a wee that. change, you know that . so did you get any of this in here? aye. it was tight. right. but is karen watching it? no, she's watching neighbours. oh. do you know what it is? you could anything else. see those sausages yeah. put them up in that middle one. right. can i erm with all these erm, casseroles and things. where's the oh! are these aren't they nice? eh? you can eat this and then . what do they go in? the oven? er no, you fry them. what are they like? can i get some for my ? what tonight? mm. if you want. it's, well i'll just leave them out. yeah, i'll leave some out. but don't leave them all out. here. gary. how many will you eat? as many as you, you want for me. two. two! well i'm not putting the frying pan on just for two. no, two more. oh. two more. eh? two more. two. i'll do you don't know if karen, go and ask karen if she wants one. will you put this, nearly put it what is it? yeah. same? i just got , yeah. turn that off. well that's nice of her to ask is it? what? she's for this house. i don't want them. right. i didn't think you want more. i'm gonna put the frying pan on, do you want an egg or something? aha. fried egg. in a roll? turn it over, aha. cos i don't want the yolk raw. what age are you karen, eight? eight? aha. aye. you have to fill in this book. mm mm. will i have to put your age down? twenty three? , i'm not one of these people that doesn't like my age now. twenty nine and a half. er well mark remember i was telling you about the boss that the two there the other night they give er a, a wage rise aha. and mark remember on monday the they got a mix up on that letter for the management, right? aha. well mark held er a meeting based on that document that was sent down so, they had to cancel it because it was around er thing they were voting on you see? mhm. so, i phoned up joe, and joe says all the results weren't in because that's the kind of ordeal next week er er next friday, tomorrow. so er er for eight weeks. the drivers definitely, well they're voting today, you see, well have already accepted that, right? so the drivers they vote today. and then we'll need to wait and see how they go, but joe says, he says, well we've done this. he said if we er, knock this back he said, and i don't know what we're gonna, they said they're gonna we do it in a month. you see, but then strike action. he says, so what they do they do? are they just gonna strike, er strike? he said everybody else is gonna accept that. i said, joe, i don't know. and gotta, do do you think that they were gonna accept it? well the factory's already voted against that. with the fact that they've accepted it, possibly accepted, so we're only with it. i mean they've got the least amount of people that are there are so we'll either that or the end of the day see if it doesn't get banned, right? well, also, we'll need to have meeting during the week. and as joe was saying, he said, all we do is just go back to them and just try and say well look you know when you come to see us again do you want to accept this or regret it on the basis that you're going to strike, but all the other section in the company's accepted that. yeah. you know, i mean, that's the realization of the whole thing. and what do you think? d'ya think well i mean, i told them at the time i was against the of a sixteen month deal. mhm. you know, that does nay impress me a lot. mm mm. quite happy about the seven percent. i know. but the deal and is it still i mean a sixteen month deal? it's still sixteen, joe joe said he did nay reckon he's going to get the management to shift back to october aha. to the anni the old anniversary day aha. for one section. you know? so, maybe in the light of that they'll have to attempt put it back to them again. they'll accept that, i dunno. th they're voting today. right. that one there. karen, you haven't eaten all of them. okay! see? what's this? er, neighbours. neighbours. oh aye. aha . what is it you wanted to do? eh? i'd hate to be the person who has to sit and sit through all of that. ah, well i guess there would be thousands of them. so they had that from there on friday night did they not? ah, well i was explaining that to er the woman that cleans, you know that she told us we can wash ourself, you know. and er and i think with maggie and eric, you know, er maggie's perception of a scottish , you know. should get you and mary on it, sing a rotten . no, well you cannae include different conversations cos it's only your voice that's coming through, you know. ah. you cannae get a perception of, hear about you're saying to the another person, you know? and i think accents, you know? regional accents. so oh it's interesting in work. oh aye. it will be interesting in work. well i take you're not getting your ? take it up to the shop and get leigh on it. aye. a see whether you can understand her. leigh, leigh's nay accent, she just talks at two hundred mile and hour. what has she got there? that's what i was about to say, is that nay books. i mean i tried, tried to er er done it in my book about my again and i read about two pages and i fell asleep. i got up at quarter to twelve i was starving so i had a er er soup. bit of mushroom soup, you know, and er i just sa thought, there's nay use, i said i'm gonna go back to bed. er plumped myself up and all comfy started reading my book and i fell asleep. yeah. och aye . why don't you try and do that one with your own . aye. it's quite interesting in different conversations. i will do that. well i'm hoping that, that tape i've been using when i go to ian and shaun's, that er the noise of rangers does nay it ma goes too loud, you know. i know. same, same as that. what? that's a wee . i don't remember think you can keep it running like that and see, aye, oh aye remember it running at i think she was just, she was wanting a fortnight away. no. well i just need to try and spread everything out and hope nobody goes there. well i think because the car's due this week and er these two endowment policies so there's not enough money in to cover them, so no. and then we'll have to cancel out the garage, so don't know how much that's gonna be. i hope it isn't, that could be embarrassing. just what elaine said aye. her mum's everybody else does it. you're not as bad as dad, the 's are gonna phone again. and what they want him for? stop for david . i mean that was last march no, april was it? april or may? well, it's . i'm not like that. they can still book can't they? they could take ours and against them. well i don't know. maybe, they're not wanting it. but they said that that was for us and we said the garages, it's sort of run down now and no use in trying to build it up again. aye, no, i'm not saying that. i'm saying squaring it off financially. no. but at the end of the day, i mean, he's sure gonna turn round and do it to us. no. but you have to. no. fruit machine. might try the fruit machine. i want it on. right. well you'll soon be computer whizz kids eh? yeah . mm. we're off then. and when do you go to saint boswell's? february. ah well the what? twenty fourth. oh that's about and there? aye. oh aye done our time. aye, well i said to the woman that, i could, i, er actually it's a photocopy, you know that old mm. i hand them around just letting people know what i'm doing you know. and er where d'ya get the headphones for? well that's for me to listening back if i've, if somebody objects to, you know aye. aye. i can then put the headphones on, listen back to it and then erase their conversation, you know? well i apologize to the listener of this tape cos it is nay very brilliant. aye . le i let you take my dinner in peace that's why we did nay record our dinner. talking to, but it's not as if it's a video camera. aye. well that's my, just my video experience coming out innit? hello! hello! i'm out ee, interview you. interview me? is that on? is that on? aye. what, er where d'ya get it? well, i've been is it yours? no, no, no, no. i'll explain to you in a minute. you could take part in a research project here who fo who? for a british market research bureau. okay. a study into the english language and how it's oh! oh! spoken in the nineties. the nineties? aha. oh! it's hi ma! mm mm mm. a bit, bit too much of the bloody yank! who? us. well i mean we're, we're taking a load of the a yankee words and no sound properly. na well it's that is it? ah! no i had a a chap at the door at half past four this afternoon and it was this woman for the british market research bureau er you shouldn't let her in. know nothing about her. ah she does,aye, aye no, and she says you know, answer a few questions and all that, would i like to take part in a sur survey of how the english language is getting used? you know, and mm mm. what words, regional accents and things, you know to u kind of update you know, the dictionary sort of style. mhm. oh yeah, but we well she's gonna change it, d'ya know when you update it you know they bring it back down with all the different words that, that's being to the the, the, the, the dialect, not the dialect, the the vocabulary they, they've, they've got in america. i mean, they, they spell a lot of words quite different to the others. oh aye, aye. aye, but you know like you se she mentioned one in particular, like what? the word skeilth skeilth? mm. aha. aye, yeah, yeah, take skeilth. that's a sponger. it's a sponger. she can't put you down . aye. but we know how words like that crop up. but, yeah but, ah but that's an old scottish but, not that's a scottish word. will we get that in the dictionary? but i don't think they would because that's er er, yeah in the scottish dictionary. aye? well i, i know . what? well, i love the word! it's, it's quite a funny word when you, when you're sitting and look at it . s k e i l ya. . your really. i know, but when she was saying apparently th like the research was that er people who leave scotland and go down to, you know the south of england and all that, their words begin to crop up down there. mhm. you know. so they may, may be able to get used then and ra maybe warrant an entry into the dictionary. well that's what i'm talking you know. about, yeah. you, a few ma americans that's how the da the la english language started off. and you've got a lot of words in, in, in er er, er a lot of latin words, and french words all in your, all in your dictionary now. that's right. mhm. look where it got and did she do a tape or said no, no she left me this and twenty blank tapes. what for? and i've got books to, for when i, who i speak to in conversation, you know, the names. can you not run away with that? who? no, no, no, no. no yo no i'm getting paid for it. eh? you get paid for it? you get paid aha for it? aye, i get a twenty five pound voucher next week for marks and spencers. oh! that's very good. oh well you could aye. get something for it. ah! no, well and a came up to you you've got to interview twenty people? no, no, no i no it's just conversations, you know, normal conversations, like, you know but if you i mean i'll take this into work. they want answers to the er you know and er, it's just so that they can maybe pick out oh yeah! never heard that one before, you know, and maybe hear mm. you know, a lot of people use excuse me, using it. and but er what er well i bet you, i bet they've never heard the word the schock well more of a certainty, they have. you've heard it on scottish thing on the telly. what schock aye. it's mi mind that in er molly er molly . aye, molly . she'll come about, that was about five years ago and and she was talking about the schock and half, half the panel er da didn't even know, they couldn't even spell it. aye. aha. well it's out of. it's not a popular word is it? well, because it's old fashioned, i say aha. . could have had a . but he uses the word si once they came back. where do they find that? well this is, this for a market research has come to see how often they're used. for market research, they went to germany, german words an an and, and french words we're, we're, we're supposed to be getting into aye, europe. aye, i know, but well then it's just how they want to see how the english word is spoken in the nineteen nineties. see if there's any di cos i mean they've done all the thing be before, so the thing is as up to the noo, they want to see if there's any yeah. the difference. difference. that's right. just the scottish and an english ? no. nationwide. oh well how did they find you gary? well she was only one who opened the door and, and asked. no. i mean she'd be, she was away to somebody in brack street next. oh. you know? somebody in each street she picked out? aye. probably. well she was looking in your windows and saw this you see. oh that, that is a nice looking house. it's a fella at , he'll do it. well there you are, it'll be about then send up ah oh. send up the survey to old hughey, he, he'll give you a few . oh! phoo! oh. aye. did, did you hear they came round to that where? anne marie and that girlfriend that she's going about with today. no. what? ah di ah but, did you not hear me shouting at them? no. what time was this at? er er, about ten ele about eleven o'clock. and he had got a pile of something put on the ground from the er, at your park. aye. right? and he was laughing er, and chasing her with it. and the screams there! and he was shouting back to him, but,and then they went up the stair and they called up the stair and i and i don't know whether it was an affair, the fella that was screaming but he him a mouthful! and then they came back to her again and they had another carry on there. and i went to them, i said well i think you're acting like a couple of schoolboys, i says, now there's a man there . i says, i don't think you're for the beer beer. mhm. ah! he says, we're falling about pissed they are. oh aye. and yu see that she's falling about well aye. he's not seventeen at least. mm mm. he's only around school. a young lonny. you see the one,di she's gone now? no. no. he's been standing up he's been standing up there with a on her beer. cos valerie said that. aha. because i think he's in a room above you, but two or three times she heard er the wireless that er someone oh aye. getting played loud. but then she says it's stopping her getting carl down. but he's definitely staying up there. ah well. and he looks gary mhm . he looks about seventeen mhm. if he's a day, i swear. mhm. this, stupid wee school ah but, she'll be twenty two, twenty three. aye. mhm mm, yeah. aye. oh aye. er, but the you've come in i've seen them, i didn't know what the hell they were doing. and i i was rushing down to get to the stair. but that was after they'd already tempered. aye. but they just ignored me then. mhm. couldn't care less. ah well, they're not gonna start wrecking the place again. oh no er, no i knew it was only one night nearly since he aha. dared to be mentioning about again. and he's definitely staying there. cos i see the two of the kinda leave quite often, maybe about eleven mhm. walking their baby. mhm. i never heard a bloody thing. oh . well, well maybe it was your, maybe you hadn't . were, you were away saturday then? oh aye. and whe with that double glazing you cannae hear nothing lily says. aha. cos well mary too, she never can hear it no that's right. and with double glazing. same with the lassie for the on a monday night. mhm. but we ruddy heard. blooming kids oh. getting disturbed out there. they were annoying me actually, i thought i'd keep say something aha. but aye. . and her the there's a, he er, he's only left school aye. though they don't know whether he's that type, you know,, you know he's aye. aye. well you've seen the one about no no, right ah they won't do they won't do a thing for the children in their old blind school because r b e a have got so much money we don't put our yes, aha, yes money into the school mhm cos there they can do it themselves i agree they shouldn't buy the tickets because they're the they shouldn't ones that have provided us, have a go at they are loaded they're loaded well there is other things they do want you on special, er pantomime before the school breaks up you know they of course mhm perhaps we could organize it or something a target one for kids and one for yes yeah a standard audience we should get back to r b a, they're the ones who supply the equipment yeah mhm they've got one of them and that, none of their children go, maybe, maybe that's a way absolutely to do it. well i think that would be worth looking into yes right, definitely if brian could make the sort of oh contact the oh yes that's a good idea yes, yes get a letter out and come back to me what about, to go back to the idea of scheduling and things mhm scheduling, yes i mean yes doris is seeing to that the difficulty is is we need a mechanism, but the yes difficulty is we, what we i think need to do is, is establish who is actually arranging dates mhm yes i mean, i think we're stuck, we're obviously stuck with a on the sixth oh yes, yeah and the thirty nine and that right for the variety of reasons, but i think what's obviously important is if there is any more date arranging going on yes, yes by whoever mm that there is that sort, kind of, everybody keeps in touch with everybody else erm i think that's diff you see i, i don't think that's possible for everybody to keep in touch with everybody else, i think you've got to have one person, that everybody looks to, to say, right all the dates are centre that, one person is that one i mean it could work on that basis then, that if, for example, i'm just thinking about, well just from my point of view, when i was arranging that date in stirling with the oxford people, i could of said well, thursday's okay with me is it okay with you until i've checked with mhm whoever it is upstairs right kind of thing mhm and provided it's only one person it's not that difficult it's not that difficult it's not you see because every person have to check it with everybody yes, you'll have to buy a chart for that one person yes, the only thing is that, that in, in each city now mm well glasgow and edinburgh anyway cos that's the other thing now you need perhaps someone in each area to be coordinating again yes all the de you know, because they've got the describers, whoever is in charge of the describers knows when they can spare people, oh no i can't do that week because we've right already got tied up yes, that's right so it really has to be the person in each city erm who then gets together with a general coordinator. for this in edinburgh there is a sort of a forum where er organizations are set themselves round the table and say this is what, the sort of idea that we're gonna do for the next year and a half right mhm, yes so that we don't clash with each other statistically yes so you don't have so we could take it from that stage even aha yes yes yes that's, that's it you see mhm i've been trying to spot room for that is this what's erm try and take it back a step yes aha as a kind of clash diary mhm but it's also linked, i mean the other thing that i've got at the back of my mind, is a kind of nightmare, is that when we were talking about the festival around about march that you know, we spoke to ingy er you know as a group and then that was all fine and we kept er going along and then, and then there was that sort of dreadful phone call i had from linda along the lines as i'm not sure if i've got any describers that's right, because it's august oh yes because it's august yes you know, part of me was thinking well just a minute you know this service is if blind people can offer describers, but on the other hand people are entitled to go away on holiday yes exactly, mm and so you know it is a sort of, i mean it's exactly what iris is saying it's a meeting with minds in a way because we need to know that, that yes, because in that case you could of, we could of drawn in people, describers from perth yes connie who knows next year we'll be, we say glasgow or that's right but, but people should also be aware that the festival is always in august yeah quite exactly, yes yes, and, and i'm prepared to, i mean and these people all live in edinburgh yes exactly that's why they're all tired rent out their houses that's right i mean i was thinking that you can actually with linda actually you know because i loiter linda today's meeting obviously she was on holiday and you know yeah i thought that was lovely they said she was on holiday, you know, erm and you know, so i mean mm mhm maybe this year because it's you know the first kind of year of it mhm and maybe next year people will take their holidays another time mm but there are all these kind of variations to build into this problem, i mean i don't know we could, i feel we could almost talk, talk around this for, for hours mm to sort of see some way around it, but i mean it's a, it's a problem of the scheduling both by the theatres mhm because you know the other thing to take into this is the yes sort of thing we've talked about as well with, with the edinburgh and glasgow kings mhm the kings theatres in towns where by and large they're showing the same shows mm yes and sometimes they go to glasgow first mhm and then they go to edinburgh yes and sometimes they go from edinburgh to glasgow and they usually go to aberdeen sometimes they go to aberdeen that's right, yes sometimes they come to edinburgh and then go away for six months and come back to glasgow yeah yes, yes that's right and i'm quite keen to sort of have that yes i mean you're never going to control, you're never going to be on top of it but i mean no oh no it's not, never, doubt it like alligator gun for example i know is coming to the, to the kings up the road here quite soon and then it's going to glasgow later on, and i keep thinking every time this sort of thing, thing's happening i keep thinking we could be dealing with these mhm we could actually be doing mhm you know, erm this, sometimes they go to the theatre royal to complicate things, but you know, mm playhouse and things but it's different theatres, but yes you know i just keep thinking the stuff's on the way round and there ought to be some way of doing it, but i, you know, i mean maybe brian's idea of the, the, the organizations in the ci ci but that doesn't help me you know with a, with a you still need a key person who's going to yes you do you still need, yes yes to sit on the information yes i think so, there's got to be one person i mean i thought about this long and hard and there's just no way, it cannot be done by committee it would not work cos then no it won't you've got people phoning oh, but i told er linda yes oh, but i told iris, oh but i told jane that's right and you've got all this people not, you know and the information just never comes never gets together everybody that's right so it's got to be one person and it's got you're all little bits, innit? to be soon because that's already mm, be soon yeah happened but that's gonna happen again yeah, i think it'll happen again in the spring it's only a matter of time at least we've got dates here for the lyceum for yes till april yes and i've got brampton till november so we can sort of put those into our september i think what i personally think what you need is a coordinator in glasgow, a coordinator in edinburgh to get together with a general coordinator who's going to cover perth, stirling yeah aberdeen, erm and get together and decide what they want, discussing dates yeah because the coordinator are the ones who know if they what's have to describe and yes and the people on the ground, well linda is obviously the, the other recorder yeah and you're obviously i'm hoping that wendy 's going to be oh at glasgow, yes if she's going to take over, well obviously if those two come together if she doesn't get a job , i hope she doesn't get a job, that's not very nice thing to say, she's so good, so you know wendy she's so good at it these she'll coordinate the glasgow ones and erm right that'll save me phoning up to say can i have a script please and that for you to take them all that's right aha well the other thing that's in the back of my mind is i happen to know that cath is just taking on a new worker mhm would she be able to is this a full time worker you've got? yes she is a full time worker working beside you she's full time worker and er she's a clerical typists, typist so and so she's more or less chained to a desk then is she? mhm nine to five? or whatever because that's the other problem with people like me is, i'm all over the place all the time. yes she can certainly i've only got a part time back up you see she could certainly erm offer any, you know, assistance in whatever way the only thing is that erm she doesn't really know the theatres so that's the thing no, no, now she doesn't know any theatres and she doesn't no that's yeah, you see that's , we really need someone who's involved to be honest mhm yeah no, be honest about that, certainly doesn't, she's there, she's certainly there and can offer any assistance you know erm i'm just thinking maybe of a central diary or something, that someone would keep, someone who you know you could relay them with phones say what's happening on the twenty third of january i mean i er, if wendy is dealing is goi well perhaps going to be dealing with a yes, aha do you feel that leaves you freer to well i'm freer to do, i mean i, i got, i wanted to be free because i was getting tied up with that and i was getting tied up with persons, but not agreeing everything mm and i felt i was being spread in so many directions erm, that erm i wanted to get rid of the glasgow coordination aha so you could tell the day yeah, mhm shall we try that then? you see iris has got an answer for you mhm yes that's another thing and you can't say this, because i've got to say this for you that's right because you're blind iris i've got to say because you know, i mean, i'm just thinking out loud, it has to be someone that you can leave messages with mhm so that's the thing you've got to get hold of them too you've got to be able to yes, aha erm, i certainly am worried about it, cos i can see, and see when it starts getting out of hand like this, see yes, yes when it starts going wrong you'll get you'll get going ah, wait a minute yes exactly exactly and blind people go wait a minute you know, i want to go to this and i want to go to that cos the other thing that's worrying me coming up is christmas yes oh that'll be a nightmare yes because there's that thing you were saying about, the visits visits, yes and, and our friend in glasgow west society not oh yes organizing tickets and yes remember last year remember all that the only, the only date is the sixth we landed up with no idea of the description, on one of the pantomime performances because he wouldn't arrange the date and then well i mean the thing is, as soon as the citizens open the box office for pantomime, i phoned them and said good open and book good now yes and what did he do, he didn't book now oh no and the first time by i don't wish the time he phoned he could only get friday of the first week oh that's hopeless for children now i can't say no of course not because we have, because it's for the children, so i said we'll do it, but that gives us an awful crush to get it in friday the first week exactly, and also it's and he said i have to admit i didn't act on your phone call and i felt like braining him i really did surprise, surprise why couldn't you of just said yes well you, well you just two years running you two years running, yes, last year we did two separate audio last year we did two, two separate audio descriptions he shouldn't mess it up well i think this is another case actually where i think in, in that yes it is situation that, you know, hopefully by next christmas we'll we'll maybe be a bit maybe, maybe we'll get a coordinator who will just say i'll book the seats for you it's not far away yes quite, exactly and you owe us yes we'll, we'll move it into a position where, you know, maybe we can bring the sid, sid on this well as well and say just send the bill to glasgow then that's right maybe, maybe it's something that which may emerge as well with you yes if you talk successfully to the r b a yes oh yes watch, watch yourself over christmas it's very complex, yes because i mean the whole point innit is to have the audio description and also it should be, it should into the runs, so that yes so that it is people will have time nearer, nearer to christmas because christmas eve would actually be the perfect time to do for children yes, exactly i mean children just get more and more excited yeah and, and er, alan, alan actually said to me last year why i don't see the importance of audio description anyway eh oh well i mean that was red rag to the bull i don't think he ever, ever has, has he? well i've got people on my committee who are on r b a board oh and they, that's why we got the equipment of course and they all support it and jim supports it jim's so there shouldn't be any problem no through that the chairman mhm there shouldn't be any problem, but i mean he won't won't right instruct the school to do anything about it no but we might be able to convince him. so what we've agreed then is that,f f you're hoping that wendy wendy is that e or i? she actually yes she actually volunteered, ha oh she's sweet would take over the coordinator and linda linda through here mhm yeah and obviously and my offer of help still stands for wendy right, because the typing that iris will still keep the diary as it was yes, lovely iris would actually and maybe what we should do is buy a diary yep and i could have it a year diary in fact yeah because that's the sort of seasons you guys tell me what mhm erm and you know and that would be their kind of bible get one with a lock on yeah and er, you know we, we would just have to yes set up that mechanism that you know aha, yes everybody and, you know everybody checks them everybody checks with those three people yes i think so i mean in a way the purse thing is a bit more distant a slight more distant, yes but non the less if you're mhm i mean you're still gonna have a but stirling isn't for instance, they'll want to consider their pantomime again mhm yeah, yeah, so you know we need to sort of pull that together it's very important for the equipment as well if we're using the yes, it's the as well exactly, yes, yes exactly all by and large i mean it's almost certainly it's getting it from one place to the next oh for instance, for instance same equipment for the same blind people well come the twenty come the twenty fourth of september give it to the blind and they can take the equipment equipment in oc in stirling then from glasgow back see induction see which is a nuisance now, well it's a nuisance but thank goodness at least it's there it's there yes but not they won't like you going back but it's, you know, it is a you won't like going back, no i don't like it either mm if we had our, our second system in each city then there we go that's right yes, mhm you can imagine, i mean come in and use it as a centre and the phone and never thinking there that yes that's bad that'll help and also for any the other coordinator unless they've got a problem because er well can i say then that iris will keep a diary right which is also the equipment diary, that, with back up from your yeah yes, yes, it's a lot of work so, right i'm just wary of the time mm it's twenty past three mm right erm, moving on, erm audio description in scotland, no er since this, the last meeting, yes cath and i have been talking about all that money, we had an entertaining day out entertaining day out and to cut a long story short, we went to see three possible funders, er funder one was t s b foundation, where to cut a long story short i'm pretty sure that t s b er we, we have to put an application in for october i think we'll, we'll buy us another system only because the guy had lost his sight in korea mm oh good good so you should always send me yes definitely definitely of course too late oh yes i think you're right if i hadn't of been blinded he was out the door so, er meeting number two was with geoff from carniki trust and he er welcome, welcomed robert's, robert's got a us very warmly and erm oh yes mhm and he's encouraged us to put an application in to do more, more so with the training side of things mhm you and i will need to sort ourselves on that, that's new er we just need to get the money and yeah erm, yeah i know it's, it's writing the application a little bit so that, that will be quite good, erm and lastly we went to meet with sandra from youth out, fund employed theatrical fund, which was a meeting we weren't really allowed to have, and this is certainly not for the record mhm erm because i'd phoned up and asked for them, er my secretary had phoned up and asked for a meeting with her but the response was we're not allowed to meet with you, so we said okay, cos it's public money and things it'll give us the edge, public money and then we arrived,we arrived at this is good where the carniki trust is in dunfermline having just managed to get there on the petrol in the tank erm we happened to go up the stair and er, the door was answered the door was shut by this woman, who said, you know, who are you? what you want? so we said were robert and she sort of gave me an odd look aha went away and came back and said oh mr will see you in a minute and it turned out it was sandra because youth and carniki i knew are in the same building, which is why we wanted to see you and she said while, since you are here, i can meet with you we won't talk to you i bump into a lot of people at conferences, so i haven't been able to write formally to thank you for the meeting because i don't want anything on the record then she made us tea as well oh good, i read in today's newspaper oh erm on the train coming through that esso have withdrawn the sponsorship from sports in scotland oh really? oh oh really? and they're going to concentrate on community ooh ooh ooh i thought we're a community everybody likes that one esso immediately nice one esso, mm get in touch with esso, oh yes small flurry of ayes that the one with the tiger or is it shell? that's it tiger esso's the tiger esso's the tiger esso's the tiger esso's the tiger, yeah put a tiger in your audio description yes mhm so and ufaf, ufaf is, is a, in fact ufaf i felt quite pleased about in a way because we'd, we'd analyzed maggie and i had analyzed the documents and jane and i and graham and i had spoken about it as well, that they are principally interested in unemployed volunteers mhm but not impulsively, but the, what i did have a concern about and i think we'll have to be a bit careful about this as we go forward is that, the audio description project is about audio description, youth and funding is about volunteers yes, she's quite clear in whilst the two er obviously aha fit together it's the way you it's not quite the same no so it's not exactly like you're trying to put you know you're trying to put a right hand onto a left hand, but it, it's a certain element of that, erm having said that what do you think? i mean do you think she's going to respond well? oh definitely, aha donna made out about that yeah she said, she's very into alan and she knows his work mhm cos he's i phoned alan, erm their rehab unit mhm is back to back, with carniki in dunfermline yes, that's right so you see she sees him coming and going, she sees the blind people coming and going, so hence the kind of yeah, so is that's it oh i knew that so i didn't know that so that was alright, there you are, you see so that's information on giving out. share this information, so no, i think she'll help and i think he'll help erm because of you, because obviously very committed to that yeah aha that should be quite good, but it's not enough of course no, i mean that, you know, that, that all kind of gets off the ground aha er, what, the next thing that i've agreed with, with mary mm is that once obviously there is a specialist application to ufaf, to, to their forms mm there'd be a not quite a specialist application to carniki, carniki will be linked to ufaf mhm due to the timing we have to apply to carn , well the deadline for carn carn the deadline for ufaf comes first yeah but will be considered second mhm mhm not till december it's not considered that's right , the carniki is the deadline is end of september and they'll considered it in october aha i see but it will become carniki decision will be conditional on ufaf application, i think ah, which is a bit iffy mhm but should be okay but since geoffrey is actually one of the ufaf trustees as well it will all quickly fit in together it's all intermingled, yes oh yes but once we've agreed is, once, once i've done the work, we have done the work, i have done the work with you helping me, er i've written this application, what i want to do is turn that into a much more general one and then i can write to you know maybe twenty, twenty five trusts on a more general basis yes saying you know, we need a sum of money and mary will help me with the marketing of that and hopefully after that we would, go on enough to keep us going, so hopefully by the time christmas comes mhm i mean we'll, we'll obviously have to sort of keep a, keep an eye on all this all the way through mhm can i say, i, i can express concern about that because i think that in terms of funding i've written a short term and b long term erm i think we've got a short term problem and yeah i speak on behalf of playback not as playback itself, but as playback being part of the regional council that can a bit, now i was at a meeting this morning where i, i sort of absolutely had to read the riot act about playback because they do not have a set budget whether you know this or not, they don't have a standard budget as they should have, we've fought for this for years, what we do is, we survive through crisis to crisis, now some money has been extracted from the playback budget and whilst i have to share two bits of playback, you know, the, the actual playback charitable, voluntary bit, and the regional council, i mean they, i, i can say that they do not have a backing of money that they can fall back on, too many backs there, but i mean really i would say that i would be concerned if it was christmas before we were ready, i, i can't help but think if we could and i mean, very, very happy to work with, with anybody and everybody on this to try and get these things pulled up quite quickly, i mean if it's forms to be filled in then mhm you know application and that, surely we could maybe tackle that quickly and then sure, well we would be in a position to have this letter because i'm getting anxious, i've written a logo first and then this long term, short term and they're connected yeah, right i think we need to move a bit faster well when i say christmas i mean that's actually decision, i mean we can't hurry the meeting that you've had and we can't hurry the meetings one we get yes decisions, no, no, no for the actual post of all that stuff i appreciate that, but the actual raising of money and something yeah, well, no i'm thinking that these, these applications have to be in both of them by the end of september and i don't yes see why the, the second string of the trust letters shouldn't be going out straight away after aha straight away, yes but again you're always linked, you're always linked to aha, yes cos again i'd go for assistance on that, you know deadlines, a lot of these trusts only meet once a quarter i know and you might get lucky mhm yeah yes and get in mhm but you might you know miss it by a week and got three months, two months, three weeks at the most i just er, it would just be, i, i just, just would be concerned but your you know yeah, yeah that, that playback's left, you know, for, for a very long time because i think you'll agree and i know it was a decision taken by playback and that you hang on cath, cath playback had been now been paid back playback have been paid back have they completely? yes we have, yes, the same as the edinburgh society, yeah oh well, then, i, that really takes away my short term concern then aha that's fine because that wasn't running the edinburgh society had given us some money, that's not me my clock's going bananas you know mine doesn't make that noise now no, that's my clock going bananas nothing over here mhm yeah well that's fine then, sorry i take away my i should of maybe actually asked the question has jane had enough first because erm leave it there, right that's why you meant you mentioned logo there and erm i think that's where now again, can we go back to that because but i think this, this comes down to the rnib, i mean if we want a logo it should be an audio description logo for the country yeah for the, for everybody don't you think so? yeah it should be national a national one except well except then if you're writing off for money to places like telecom and it's a national logo can you not have a national logo which is kind of personal wise oh i mean, i know that in america and all the different cities have their own logos okay so maybe we could do that here on the logo front when linda wrote to me and said she couldn't come to this meeting yeah she said i have enclosed a, a draft of a logo and she didn't, i have seen it because jane's got one who is this? linda linda linda had a contact who'd done something linda had done one because remember but alex did one way back which would not of course and at college yes say was wonderful, but i think we should maybe try and just gather them together and but the sooner , the sooner we get a logo the sooner soon i can get placards made to put above our heads so lovely, get it out there but if we have linda's just, just that mm, with information on yes exactly can you find it? mm, i've got it somewhere could you, could you maybe gather linda's and alex's and anybody else's that they've got well those are the only two, i mean linda's, linda's one is the more i'll give you one oh, but, ah, well iris's that's three then yes three i've got all the bits and pieces of all okay, well put it on the agenda next time right, yes, please i think that's a wee i can't find linda's aha and if people could get a copy of them all before the next meeting do you have friendly relationships with a graphic designer, at this ? yes, yes we could hopefully try and make a decision yes, yes i mean i couldn't care less, as long as it was something must get something linda's is the mask in the theatre oh yes not really, but with headsets and erm lights that's it, that's it and headlights coming, you know, the brian has something to come up with oh do, do which is yes ooh yes yes please yes please because i just think it would, it's so important to get that bit, that bit goes along with the all the application bit, if we tie those two up together yes i don't think we'll have a problem with money you see mm but it's got to be done properly and one of, one of the things is the, is the, i don't know what the eye is the good thing to have in the, if somehow or other be incorporated it to be quite honest i quite like the iron yes and i know that's a bit blind and, and i'm usually well saying the opposite, but you do have to remind people what you're doing it's, it identifies you really quickly mm yeah, mhm it does mhm perhaps, right well great if you can get something good, good if you're not so very artistic, all but seems just need to come up with a brief it was more or less something along those lines wasn't it yeah i could, i could something as simple as linda's linda's? it did have, yes i, i mean it, it wasn't that, but it was something you know that it was the masks theatre masks should, what they were trying to do was copy the masks that you have in the yes mm lyceum and oh so it's a lyceum over there really. no, no, personalize, personalize lyceum has just got a new logo i noticed oh don't no said can we have your old one? yes yes, steal it, that'll be fine, i'll steal it no i don't know what i've done with it so anyway that's all my fault so that's, that's the erm, the funding side of things graham and i we gave the money back yes graham and i erm, spent time talking about job descriptions which aha if i haven't brought that forward, it's really irritating because i'm sure i've put don't seem to of done, so we have done some work on job description, here, i mean it's not been typed up anyway maybe send them out rather than wait till the next meeting, aha i'll send them out erm that'll be good it's only draft mhm so that's done some work on that, and there's now four models for training, one is the, you know, on the job, evenings, training, there's the weekend model of getting people together for the weekend, there's the sort of summer school idea and the other one's the one that doug keeps reminding me about, which i keep forgetting about which is the distance learning one, er we, i think this is the one he thinks is running in dundee, that maybe help with because the idea of developing a pack which is kind of trainer proof mhm so that it could be sent to the folks in inverness mhm i'm a bit weary about this but he seems to yes i'm a bit weary about it think audio description at a distance ah yes no i don't fancy that at so anyway those are the four, those are the four models, i mean at, at this stage i don't know i mean the fourth one the fourth one of the, one of the i think the first two though, the on the job obviously oh how the weekend is relatively straightforward, the summer school idea is complex and i think the distance is complex it's expensive yeah, exactly in some ways wh i, i, i heard, i was listening to a description on saturday at the serials and i must admit i thought to myself mm yeah we've got more work required here aha yes, so, it needs someone, i mean i'm always hers now, sort of saying why, those, those, but you see if there's nobody to doing that in edinburgh they're going to slip again unfortunately. yes that applies to hand and that applies right throughout the country absolutely yes yeah, so we need to yeah, we're, we're sort of thinking about it aha but er, how you kind of do that the other thing i was slightly concerned about it, if it's a slight digression is the fact that the people at the lyceum at the assembly hall last saturday didn't know, hadn't been told anything about the equipment yeah they didn't even know how to put the clip onto the microphone, they were sitting holding the microphones instead of slinging it round their neck, and they've never been told about the equipment, so they needn't i see i mean all of them are obviously going to need equipment explained to them they need to understand how the equipment works, aha so that's part of the training aha that part, aha yeah yeah right it's a trouble is it's an ongoing, it's a not a bit of training it's an ongoing no, the only thing is the thing is the equipment is new to everyone in edinburgh of course and once they've shown, if somebody new comes along one of the old hand it'll just pass it on of course it'll pass on will be passed on , but in this instance they all need to be shown how to work it, yes, mhm, so that concerned me a little bit, apparently because they were holding the mike right up to their mouth and it was distorting terribly what's going on up there so it's, it's the sort of mm mhm improper use yes exactly, yes right so i mean there's, there's obviously more need to be thought through on that and the video i haven't, oh i have done something more about the video mhm erm, i haven't, i was gonna go and, i tried phoning lorne one time i was going through to glasgow just to see if i could, can i have a, can i have a pint with him or something, erm, just to chew it over cos he suggested you know he'd made various helpful suggestions, in the meantime i didn't manage to meet him, but in the meantime i did manage to speak to my father-in-law who has a camcorder and er he will be more than happy to erm, he's also got editing equipment, he would be more than happy you know, to do the home made video that we've talked about, i need to talk to him about this because the obvious place to do will be the lyceum on one of your shows can you get, can you give me the name erm, the rest of the through to glasgow she was rose that she lecturers and dramas or something margaret margaret , can you give me a phone number for her because i thought if they do that they must put her on plays with us students yeah, well that is another possibility we could that would be ideal mhm certainly i'll aha erm but she would be ideal let me just put you in the picture there brian, what, what lorne has agreed subject to what guarantees have been given mhm is that, that we as a group can, can er video the production, but it was at perth, but in this case it would have to be mhm review, erm, subject to getting on commission from the cast and director mhm and all we will be talking about when my father-in-law will be coming along, he's got a tripod, he's got all the gear, it will be just that probably be plonking it on front of the ground circle actually mhm erm a bit like slinging a good, we could put it over the front oh that'll be even better then you'll need to talk to him i mean you'd asked him to do that i mean he's, he has been quite busy he's retired, but he's, he's been quite busy with this festival, but i, i said to him, now what i'll do is maybe come and you and him and jane maybe kind of will just sort of have a quick confab sometime just talk about what he wants, and he will be kind of happy to do that with obviously we'd have to find a drop of money to pay for the tapes, i mean that wouldn't be huge and expensive. he's also got editing equipment so it might be the sort of thing that you know like you'll be able to take it away and say you know, this section, that bit and then and that, that's right meet again with him, maybe go to his house yep and spend an afternoon cutting it off as it were yes i mean if, copying those bits onto a separate tape. yeah. what lorne, has, the concern lorne has is, is that he doesn't want that tape, finding its way out of our mm, yes hands, erm, i mean he's, he's really genuinely concerned, wanting to help us, but i mean he's obviously he's, you know, he is the union oh yes, absolutely he's quite right about that and he has to represent his neighbours , erm so erm so we would need to guar give guarantees, i think that would have to be have to give guarantees that the tape would not be abused, but i mean that in, in, in actuality you know, if it was you doing the training that's right it comes down for you and you would have to sign documents of, erm, anyway so it's that's great should be fairly easy to yeah just to record straight over right not necessarily on a camcorder right, well we can, we should, we should do that, then. when do you start again? i speak to stella now do you speak, do you start straight after the festival we have a gala evening? er eleventh right, well what i'll do is, if you like, that's it this is the erm, erm linda mhm mhm friend, who i spoke to cath i'll date it no i can't and can i tell you, i'm not being funny but i think that's actually maybe quite important, i know this is not the in doubt visually impaired people but oh no i think you'd have to oh yes choose something that, a person with a visual impairment might be yes, aha able to catch not every one is totally but i mean, you know it'll be quite nice, it also be quite nice if it was raised yeah yes right then it would have a wee with it, which would be quite nice for a visually impaired person mm yes mm just a thought, you know mhm and i'm afraid i'm, i'm not a very artistic person as well when that went into the paper, that's a similar sort of thing that they use fair, fair enough that's what they used mhm similar yes there's a technique for, for raising it, isn't it? i think there must be because i've seen it several times now and just in, in, you know mm people not necessarily anything to do with visual impairments paper you know yes yes, indeed it was quite fun mhm i suppose it's always much more expensive to do yes you just write over the top, sort of write over the top of it and it raises off that's right, mm but i, i mean, erm i suppose it's best to do it in colour we've got some of the stuff downstairs colour along yeah i suppose it'll cost yeah cost more in printing cost more doesn't it? yeah yeah an awful lot more yeah, yeah so if i mean it is a quite complex problem because once you've once you have a single colour it's okay yeah yeah a single colour, ah, right, yes, well that maybe quite nice because you want something which is big and small mhm so that you know you can use it, you know, on your own, publicity material yes something that'll look good blown up aha yes, yes to do a poster or something yes, that's that doesn't immediately occur to me that it's for blind people no no that's what i thought it's like for like, for, for like hearing, a hearing aid person mm that's my initial thought it's not obvious oh we definitely don't want that cos all the money will go the money will go to sign language in devon can i, can i have a what you see are the headphones so you think about hearing hearing you don't think about sight that's right, yes and i think that's, that's quite, quite right yes i mean just, i mean this is, you know mhm this is the quick we did for this, and that's yeah why we just put the eyes on the front mhm what we don't want is a man with a white stick job no, no i mean that's no, no and we don't, we don't want a green dog either no and a dog oh no watch graham i think that yes a bit his master's voice isn't it? yes oh no, a guide dog listening his master's voice in hamlet, you know, it's just, stick a who i am on that wee dog, i can remember i can see, i can remember that from but the, the dog listening to a big ear instead of a, an earphone if guide dogs can sue us aye guide dogs, i know. now er moving on erm i did phone marcus up and asked why were the coming to london and it is something to do with television yes he gave me a number to phone and i've tried phoning and i've not had a response, but i'll keep trying this is a that's very difficult to get hold of yeah i haven't managed to get all of them yes, mhm sixteenth of september, no the nineteenth nineteenth round about then, mhm right, cos it only dawned on me cos the first of september erm the wakefield meeting that was talked about right on the nineteenth of august was postponed and it's now in a couple of weeks, so i'm gonna go is it now? right in a couple of weeks, whenever it is right same one i was going to go down to was that, what was it on? glad i didn't go down to it it was about training oh it's about training i thought that was something else you were going to go to yes glad you didn't go eh? yes i did, yes well just as well i'd , that sounds good yeah, marcus was being quite sort of vague, but marcus is gonna be here at the end of the month yeah yes, by the way i'm gonna be able to see max , i'll tell you that now because i've been dragged off to another conference, i'm actually going down to the, to the rehabilitation workers' phones you haven't been dragged off at all i'm furious and alan's started phoning me up and saying and then you're flying up to stone haven sorting out and then i've got to go down to that conference and fly up to stone haven yeah that's two however it doesn't matter and when are you going to get to stone haven? i don't know i don't think there's an airport in stone haven no oh you're flying into what? she's actually flying to di's just drop you off in i'm not coming you can see it all folks that's for the thirtieth you're flying into dave's? aha well i'll be in aberdeen anyway oh and that's aberdeen airport i could maybe pick you up yes, let's try and i'm not quite sure i've put my name down cos i live in aberdeen, my home's aberdeen, so i'll be in aberdeen for that with the thing with the fancy excellent i'll get together with that quite right, i can easily be at dave's saturday, no problem, i know dave that's a saturday is it? that's a saturday yes what's the i don't know i know i quite like to go, but erm well i'll be in i was telling you i'd loved to have gone you know commodore cos that's where tom's going commercial in russell square, next door aye next door oh that yeah all the theatres and the country there is the, there's the i find that quite useful the erm scottish theatre guide yes the scottish theatre guide i haven't seen one of them for a long time i'm staying in aberdeen of course that was scottish, federation scottish there's a theatre marketing which is closing it, well, sort of shutting up shop at the end of the month, maybe so do i, what i like about going home is you can get away i haven't seen that for a long time so we're back this isn't a federation that's right marketing committee that's right, but if you're actually going home it's easy cos i seem to remember having so something a long time ago, especially the smaller theatres as well as a touring thing, you know, it'll be handy for you yeah mm you know what was going to be where yeah i think though, i mean it comes back to sort of wanting to know, we're just talking again about what's on mm mhm we need to know before it's published that's right you know you need to know like six months before i, i won't give up and if everybody does all sorts of for finding that out, whether you go through the arts council yeah you see the arts council has a finger in most pies, the only way to find out through them, i mean the trouble is, a lot of it, is going to be confidential mm yes erm but then if you did it at the stage before, before it gets into the scottish theatre guide you can then make your dates available or you can agree your dates and you can get publicity and that at home. yes, cos that's the thing that's the thing aha publicity is the thing so we need to find aha but if, if you can find out through lucy whether or not mm that publication is still on the go, because if it is gonna carry on, on the go, we can maybe get into the yeah editorial of, of the gathering of the information mhm yes that would be yeah, right erm cos the publicity is not just for visually impaired people or even for sponsors, it's for theatres too when they're seeing this and saying ooh, i noticed they're doing that, this, this and this mm and we're not doing it yes you see and that would be yes that's right that'll be an idea wouldn't it? talking about publications , one of the things from the last meeting is iris pointed out the number of theatres in here say they do audio description and i've, i've yeah oh i, i said that to you at the time robert, i mean i'll be honest and i saw that document and i nearly died and it's the way they say it too i don't suppose you know i've been, i've been through them all and er there's only one or two that i've not actually had any contact with actually one way or another. some of them are people that erm that i've generally had contact with, in terms of starting to talk to people about it erm, other people are being kind of, what's the word, optimistic, with the truth likes and the brides for example , erm well we have done it we've done it since they lied about what happens it's like it's like the arkley one, i want to know, you know and the small and the one down in the borders the one that's down in the borders yes, i mean that, i've seen so , another piece of print about that one down in the borders and erm it's, it's not our version of audio description, so i am going to write and linked to that i was going to do a new information sheet, i found the old information sheet so i just bring that up to date mhm i do, i like, do you think i could have a copy of anything you've got to date because lying in my desk this morning is something i have to prepare a briefing note for my chairman and i was thinking about that recent one, but i couldn't put my hand on it robert, absolutely updated on exactly where we are. i don't think i've got one here, but i could send you one. could, could you, thanks, thanks robert, could you fax it? yeah cos he wants it like yesterday what does he want it for? oh, well, because this video has come in of course it's gone, it's gone to chief execs oh i see so they want in the regional council and they now want to know all about them see the back ground, yeah so that's good, because it might mean money, it means of having and that's for counsellor ? well no it's the convener, the convener of the whole region oh right like you know yeah, whatever it is no, ah, more senior than him, it'll go to him too, but it'll be for everybody's so what you want then is the sheet we did a few weeks ago just about the erm yeah, give me the update, yes and if you're just updating that a bit, if you're gonna update it then, aha right, okay yeah cos it'd be nice to show it's happening here, here, here and there, you know. yeah i'm not sure if it mentions the magic words regional council, but well you'll have to get that fitted in somehow i'll, i'll fit it if, if, if not you can re-type it if you can gonna get it's on the computer though, i think we can manage oh dear so erm, advisory committee being the next item, well we will, we'll have a word from brian we'll, i haven't approached er david yet in glasgow meeting, but i will do mhm and obviously ingy will let us know when she can come and we can talk a little more about the festival. erm, i've been thinking that i can't chair this meeting and take the notes and things when it becomes, and if it, the fund comes through and it becomes the audio description project as opposed to this group, and you know we will be widening out a little bit, i wonder if we should actually have a chairman type person. i haven't spoken to erm, i mean i only thought this coming along in the street, whether there's anybody sort of notable, i mean is it, is, is, is there any value in actually having a figurehead type chairman you know, sort of celebrity type yes i think it makes a big difference type person who you can oh yeah somebody could push forward to mhm you know snip ribbons and things i dunno, i'm not suggesting will you find out now, but there's something yes, interesting angle if there's anybody that comes to mind. i thought about tom on more than one occasion because tom for so many years was the voice of the royal wedding and erm this and that state affairs and things, state occasions and he only lives in murrayfield, i mean a state of affairs is not appropriate at the moment mind you i heard that they were, they were videoing for this thing and you know, they were over and some of them were doing something and it is somebody you normally and the news and i said the news and actually sort of frozen and the guy said to me, he must of actually seen me frozen there, he said it's okay, it's okay, it's nothing about whatever her name is, you know i said oh no, no, he said i've to go to brussels you know and it'll be all about, oh i thought i was really dreading it i, i don't know, i, i think it'll be lovely if you can get up a blind person mm yes mm blind actress, a well known blind is it that? was a blind actor he's, dead now i think oh is she dead? we don't want he is oh we don't no she wouldn't she's away, yes, she was away anyway that's what's involved anyway it's a thought yes it's a new thought, mhm yes i mean there's, there's the practical side of actually having, i mean well there's various aspects of it you could have someone as a figurehead mhm who never actually did anything apart from this, sort of push forward to receive cheques from the only thing is to make sure that somebody's going to come along, because the worst possible scenario is like or you could have, or you have the society for the blind in glasgow who the lord lady profe oh who never turns up for anything professed person and they, she, she never turned up at anything not even the opening? she never ever turned up at anything never, so i mean you might as well not bother you know mhm or whether you actually have in fact it makes you more stupid mm you know working type chairman or something, i don't know, anyway it's just for you to think about it yes, that's it right, any other business iris look forward to the playback send you about seven hundred pounds mhm and so jane can now report the, now that's been settled yes, thank you, thank you that's really good erm but er i thought i was a yesterday, erm aha something although they were quite, er nothing, nothing to do with er aha and to pop down to do theatre because i see paula eat before at perth aha and he assured me it is an who's this? ideal little spot to do it audio description from the commentary booth, yeah yeah because when marcus and i went we didn't actually see up there, but we could see from down there and yes, yes that's yeah aha i think we'll be okay on that mhm paul of course is leaving oh is he? ah to go and do something in dundee, so they've advertised his job oh oh well we were talking about funding, i've actually got an account for expenses oh right so that's what the money is about and that's where the money came from mhm aha i've got i, we're, we're going to get some money from the ingy fund for the festival mm yes plus, erm, plus the expenses from us going from glasgow, i don't know whether anybody from edinburgh will have expenses, but erm, what shall, where, where shall i ask her to send this cheque for it, i mean i still, there's still an account open for it in glasgow for audio description aha right but i mean who was, linda would, would be treasurer yeah has she got an account there? yes it'll probably be better just to get and then she'll the money for the yes that's right so i'll get them to send it off to linda if we, all the information for linda comes through me anyway yes, right, okay, fine because the address she's put it on is the society's address oh is it? yes right which she felt was better than her home address aha oh yes aha right and i've got the bank book fine so the money is i see i'll get the cheque made payable to and hope you're administering this robert and then robert knows the only question is whether or not jane has a key to open the drawer in the i know i couldn't get the, i couldn't find the key for the desk, no that was her story, alright oh i've forgot to say under advisory committee, i, this has taken so long, i've completely forgot about it. we do when we set up this group we asked for a representative ah, yes aha and eventually after some searching they nominated someone who then resigned from her post not clare clearly because they nominated for right in stirling, central region, erm changed her job or something so that she no longer her, her voice mhm on disability issues and they haven't been able to find anybody else, but what they've said,despite extensive attempts the convention has not been able to obtain a replacement for this one, due to and buys us time. i'm disappointed that we cannot be represented, but sure you will appreciate position. please continue to send papers for any relevant meetings and an attempt will be made to respond to appropriate issues, if there is any specific topic you wish to be considered, please do not hesitate to get in touch so i thought that was quite a nice letter seeing as i practically read them all i would also like a copy of that mhm because if i enclosed a copy of that with this response to chief execs mhm that'll kind of filter its way through into and will cause will certain need some yes i'm not quite sure of how and they won't like that one little bit, they'll amend them because they've done it yeah, i mean it's been going on for ages i don't think that's erm particularly fair right, i mean i'm not quite sure how coslow will go about things, i mean the reason we wanted someone from coslow is cos we wanted someone from the federation of scottish theatre cos we hadn't heard for a while yes we had roy and then we had simon for a bit and then we decided because it wasn't working altogether an edinburgh person and a glasgow person mhm erm well i think it's very important robert because, i mean as the charter for the arts indicated look at the money that local authorities are spending upstairs to us and really you know we, we are well exactly, i mean we have, we sort of, we, we kind of anticipated that oh yes, so i mean come on let's, let's give them another wee push, gently so , i mean we've erm, i mean i've developed a relationship with david at coslow yes that's right so it might be that he could come, erm, anyway i'll give you a copy of that yes, so that i can just sort of say, you know, we did invite and, that might help where are we on i mean i'm not quite sure how coslow , how do coslow sort of nominate their representatives like that? we asked them to put some i've no idea, i mean, did they sort of send someone like you who's who is an employee well for, for example phil is our, yeah phil seems to, to go to some of these meetings and, but mainly it's the elected members yeah mhm and it's usually elected in well glen isn't in fact an elected member ah, right, well, i mean she should be able to give us somebody, god there's, there's ten million of them i would of thought so that's right and it helps you cos i was looking at with funding, you know, it does help what about jimmy ? because then they go back jimmy ? yeah councillor you know people like that yeah anyway yes that would be where are we with costing and theatres on the nominal charge? what are we doing about that? er, i haven't contacted the citizens in due course, but erm yeah that was a you have contacted the lyceum have i contacted the lyceum? oh good we're charging the lyceum yes erm because we agreed to it what was it we said? twenty pounds i was gonna what i just want to i was gonna say fifteen to you fifteen everybody say a different figure now i, i have talked are we to invoice brampton theatre asked me how much it was going to cost, so i, off the top of my head i said twenty pounds mm erm thinking that we ought to charge something because to hire the equipment is very expensive sure and if we were looking at running costs and replacing things and and all the rest of it that's what i'd say, yes, yes of course to be, to be replacing that, so i said twenty pounds off the top of my head, so brampton theatre have agreed to that as well right and they will will they pay that as a one er yeah, mhm they'll pay pay each time yeah, yeah will you require is that either side each time or is that up until christmas? right, presumably if there was a necessity, would there be a necessity to produce an invoice? i mean what would your system mm, yes require an invoice for that kind of thing? yeah oh yes well what we might have to do is concoct something up on a letter, a stand have you a standard charge? but it doesn't matter whether it was, you don't have to do one you'd do it all you could do in advance or you could do retrospectively or do it as that or you can do it after three months, yes i mean we could do it up till christmas, three monthly or something like that yeah mind, we wouldn't want it every time yes, mm so we need to some time too much paper work apart from anything else yes, that's right it's a pest that's good that's good yeah it just gets a wee bit much mm, well it, it keeps you being able to run it so you're mm not stuck yes and that's a hundred and eighty pounds worth there yeah it's too it's too expensive over, over the holiday season that's right that's another one for christmas then double it's certainly cheaper than the way you were doing it it's certainly cheaper than three hundred and fifty quid, they showed up that's it exactly and that's crazy right i don't think i've got any other things you could of bought your own equipment yeah by now yes you could of it's a shame erm, oh i have got something else, which is music, erm, at the last meeting i said i've been talking to simon from the queen's hall, about the idea of doing pre-concert notes mhm right not, not actually doing an audio description of the conductor and again, and again worried about doing ballet one thing, one thing about it, it's crossed my mind a long time ago is er the idea of erm in the half hour or whatever twenty minutes before a concert, doing er concert programme notes yeah particularly if there's you know heavy mm information about a particular piece, so, simon and i sort of, we were talking kind of fairly casually about that, but erm, what we agreed to do is, this was about the time when we first got the equipment i think and it, it occurred to me that you, and i've checked this now, that you can actually plug a cassette, you know, a walkman type of player into either the microphone for the right radio system or aha indeed into the infra red if you were using the, i mean obviously that's a small scale, probably wouldn't, erm, so the idea of actually putting some concert notes onto a tape or indeed doing it live, so anyway simon is away on holiday, after the festival but i've arranged cannon principal and for him and you right and his most regular blind patron who you know mrs mhm to ann mhm to kind of just get together with someone he's identified a person whose name i can't remember but he's got a chamber orchestra right what i was interested in knowing in was for example whether he's got his chamber orchestra repeated their same concert five or six times in different cities mm i just, it's just a sort of an idea at this stage, i'm not wanting to take up ogres of time on this, but i'm quite weary of doing it with a, with a full set and everything it's, it's, it's, awfully tiring for taking the system yeah down and, and may well be just one person requiring and you've got somebody else to go down yeah, well there may be other mechanisms of doing it with it and hand it out week and then at the concert collect it at the end again yeah it's a kind of thing that i think could be put and take and people could pick up at the box office yeah i think so yeah, well maybe that's what we, we you could pick it up beforehand at the box office well maybe that's what you do, yeah er, yes erm, you know, maybe it's something we can do in just a one off during the winter mhm you know if the sel are doing concerts on the basis of six or seven of the same, i'm, i, i really don't know enough about it mhm and it maybe something that we can get one person to come into playback yeah make up a, a note and then you how did the home of the brave do their thing? that was to do with head sets? eh, to do with head sets yes aha, nothing to do with and that was picked up our infra reds there they're infra red, yeah that's picked up right then so, so there is something i mean margaret, have you been to it cath? no margaret was at it really she said really it was not much for blind people no and i've no it's not i've spoke to colin to just to try and cope with it and the crowds and the aha yes, aha very difficult for blind people mhm no we were not there was lots of consulted or asked or involved or anything like that there's lots of things you could touch yes though, yes which is good which is good, makes a change, aha so that's the only other sort of bit of sort of the other thing is i mean, erm, the, the trone did it a couple of years ago, they haven't done it this year they er, no, yes recorded they got, somebody recorded that's right the, the entire winter programme the next three months of programme on tape, several plays there were not that you did, erm and i think there was a bit of a up the place aha and they had they, we copied them that's right and we had half a dozen of them at the box office and if anyone, i think we still sent them out if anyone wanted them yes but it meant people could go up to the box office and take a tape recorder and sit and listen to them right i think they had to take the oh we did that as well, you had the morag does it, morag does it for them anyway yes, so it's quite good to have that kind of thing to publicize. yes it would be good to get the trone to do that again, we must have again yes cos that stopped yes i mean he was doing that before we ever started audio description and now they've been doing it for some time at the biro, perth is oh yes does, does the biro at st andrew's do the biro not do it using actors now then as well? yes they do they actually use the actors who are going to be there because it's easier this wasn't, this was just a programme yes cos alan says he gets copies of that from the biro theatre yes that's right i mean it's a jolly good idea it really is so there are a few initiatives there, but i don't think there's been done anything on the music front though. we do yours from the information that goes out mhm morag records it in newspaper mhm so it's on our tapes anyway right so it could go on a separate tape if you wanted that to happen, it's on a mazda tape mm so it could go on tapes, we could do it right it's easy for you to have it at the theatre, mhm to take a copy from that yeah yeah could easily do that i perhaps could easily do that they could pick from me up here or, even send it out yeah could even have some at the theatre and yes morag does it anyway mhm so there's no point in duplicating it no so in a way that's not really audio description, although it's no obviously no closely linked, but it's not really but it's always a, a joy for blind people to go to the theatre yeah mhm if they're involved, yes that's right right, i've nothing else, has anybody else have any other topics? ah, good erm that's rather nice, ah nice it is, it's nice most of them don't work, i've got date of next meeting? a lovely one over there oh yes i've been looking at that and thinking we'll take it, mm its great isn't it? probably worth a fortune i find present it to us yes and doesn't work oh and doesn't work, well maybe because it's not wound up is the mouse dead? the time of day and er yeah you're quite right, yes can i ask just a little, it's quite a big question actually, i don't know if anybody will answer it. is there any research probably not on the size or the whereabouts of the potential markets that we have as a theatre? well this is something that we have talked about i mean we touched on how we're going to reach some, but is there any this is something we've, we've talked about and in fact lucy and i have talked about it mhm actually we, mm, at some length and had a few ideas, erm i've got an appointment with someone at the arts council in a couple of weeks that the arts council's got a new fund called erm consultants in research and i thought i'd make a bid to see if we can get someone mhm to research this audience and ways of getting to it mhm mhm presumably you know roughly how many people are, are already if you look at the number on the register, i've got three and a half thousand already we can give you these numbers i mean we've got yeah, but that doesn't mean anything if you're getting ten people turning up it doesn't mean anything no, but it means, it means that we know how we've got to gear up yes yes to a lot of things i think what we needs is a what we're ready to pitch that sort of thing that's right, i think what means something is this overall figure and then erm a kind of er an information giving part which points out that what, you know, what seventy five per cent of my twelve thousand had over sixty five mm fifty per cent over seventy five mhm but a piece of research would be very good because that would help in honesty when you're trying to get erm organized with er transport and things yeah that's why we're saying transport important because the majority of people are over seventy five sure, but it also goes down to do with erm, matinee and doing the evening performance but what, that's right yes, what should, aha and there's also that's right and there's also people who have been to the theatre before that's not an audience who have yes, no, oh no and the audience, yeah and it's not like the deaf audience had, had dealing with the have a hearing audience, yes that are older, but the deaf audience which is very young, but other audiences and people who have lost their sight yes have been to theatre mhm and who really, could, yeah who have once enjoyed the theatre , yes the sort of thing is it's bringing them back yeah, the sort of thing lucy and i were talking about earlier is, it was just before i went on holiday so my memory is kind of hazy, it's one where i was going to see the arts council and see if they were interested in the idea if they work mhm you know this is the initial chat if they're interested, you know, you suddenly put paper and go back to lucy and say okay, let's write this down right, right but i mean it was things like doing questionnaires maybe telephone question phoning people up you know that your three and a half, well not all of them but an example mhm and she seemed fairly confident about her questionnaire in developing the right question in questionnaire, but i suppose that would be in conjunction with people like you mm yes mhm erm to, to sort of engage a response. it was, it was as much to do with what kind of things would you like to see mhm listen to yes, cos that's the other bit isn't it? aha as, as, it's the choice aspect of it as well as the sort of, if there was an audio description would you go and you know mhm what kind of things do you want to have audio described, so there are, i mean there's still quite a bit, but she got quite excited about the idea of involving one of the proper, well not proper, one of the, you know, official professional market research firms, as well in terms of doing this work, maybe, maybe getting money from the arts council to actually pay them mhm to do it, although, whether they have this appropriate kind of sensitivity of not i don't know no, mhm so it, it is a sort of it's a kind of sort of liveish topic it's sort of in one of those stages where it's not actually happening yet because a but i mean erm, i mean it it's blatantly obviously at this i think there's a, there's point your thinking how can we get people involved. how can we get the people, yeah. i mean i worked at, as an open afternoon or something where we invite like into the theatre yes find out what, feel around the theatre, yes get onto the stage, feel a set, talk to some of the actors talk to the costume people talk to the costume people you know, talk about make up because a lot of yes, cos remember at the beginning of all this audio description lots a chat about including all that that's right i was horrified because you know it's like bringing blind people in, doing all this, but something like that, open day, whatever, that'll be wonderful that would that'll be great fun yeah would encourage people to mhm that's right, if you're organizing something like that and thinking about it from now, this is only the first of september, but yes newspeak's already out yes that's right so the only, the that the easiest way for me to do playback's out yeah playback's out as well, the easiest way for us to get to people is through these mhm tapes tapes now the next one doesn't go out until october so you would have to have something in november mhm to give people time to organize it i think yeah two, two months ahead that would be okay, i mean to let you mention it once two months ahead let you mention it again at least two months ahead and go on about it again so if you had a date in november that you could give me, time to get people together mhm i have a huge group of people who meet the first thursday in every month aha so even to get them there yes that would help a lot would be a good er yes getting them in the door is the get them in the door the blind people respond really wanted to come back, yeah well to somewhere they've been yeah that's right and if they've been there, people have been really nice to them mhm and it's been good fun, they do want to come back i have thirty or forty people who meet once a month for oh that's excellent first thursday in the month aha and we could get them to you mhm cos their meeting could just be with you mhm yes good idea for that afternoon that'll be ideal, yes that'll be ideal mm, yeah i think that's a wonderful idea yes easily organized mhm if they could see the theatre to see what was going on and an example of audio description get them into the theatre without a lot of sighted people to push through that's what it's like, yes yes, that's right, yes yes and find out where the, the la ladies is where the loo, it's as simple as that, yes all that kind of thing, yes yeah it's having that knowledge you know that's right trying to get people together for that japanese let them take night i remember japanese night but that was very difficult to organize because they, they never give us time and, and that's right, yeah if you don't have two months, you can't do it no you can't, you really have time you've got to have two months, mm so your publ your publishing date for this is october? first of october it'll go out first of october mhm and iris probably round about then and then you'll need that can i begin by asking you how yes you do please i'd rather how. you did yes. how do i address you? is it nurse ? yes. yes. that's right yes. nurse or mrs , which you like. yes. were you born on anglesey? i was. in did you want to hear that? yes. in . primrose place , and it's still there now. the little house were you born into a big family? yes. five of us and we're all alive. what did your parents do? erm well my father was a like a on a far a small farmer's son you see. and he was a man of all trade in the end because my grandfather's like that. he could do anything. but he did help most in the with the graveyards in the end and he used to ring the bell in the church. he was a bell ringer for years. my father was. and my great grandfather he was a bookbinder. he's buried in . and er i used to think in the old days that bookbinding was a very common thing, but since i've grown er and gone through the world, i thought he was a very clever man. he's buried in and he was the only bookbinder round here. did you got to school in ? yes. i went to school in till i was fourteen. did you enjoy school? yes i did i would have liked to have gone much farther but i couldn't. my grandparents said they couldn't afford it. but i think they could have afforded, just the idea of me leaving home. i'd have to stay in holyhead for a few nights. and no bike you see. is that how most children got to the school there? yes. and most er most of the children you see went from to holyhead. there were no buses them days. they had to walk to valley station to the train unless their people could afford to buy them bicycles . so erm did you have any ambitions at school? i did. i wanted to be a teacher. or a nurse. so what did you do when you left school? erm well i went to liverpool. i was promised that i could learn t i could be a nurse if i went and i went to the bishop of liverpool's erm household in liverpool. er i met them in when they were on holiday and that's how i got in. and she took to me and she took me to liverpool and they were very good to me. i was there till i was married. i forgot about the nursing. i they were so good and i was so happy that the nursing went you see. so what were you doing there? er well i was doing all kinds really there was a staff then and of servants but i was lo i was er looking after the old lady more than anything. and doing afterwards i did t er see the war came and they couldn't get people. people went to do ammunition and all that. see there's more money. so i erm took i i helped the parlour work. when the when the er what do you call him? the butler went off, there was no butler then so i really helped with the with the with the with the food and all that you know. i enjoyed it very much. i forgot about my nursing . and see good nice people visited you see, and they were always very kind. did you miss anglesey? well no i didn't miss anglesey at all because er my outlook was to get away and to do something different. you see. i was never homesick. how long were you in liverpool? nineteen j from eighteen to thirty three, what does that come to? er fifteen years. . eighteen and ten, twenty years. twenty yes you were right, fifteen years. yes. i was married in nineteen twenty three. from the bishop's palace, in the welsh church in liverpool. it's not there now. a lovely welsh church . and the bishop married me there and the vicar and er quite a lot of people had come there from all over like because i was being marrying in the welsh church you see, i didn't have a lot of and the bishop married me, that was something for them to come. and i went to liverpool to london for my honeymoon. my husband came from hastings. how did you get back into nursing? well i lost my husband in nineteen thirty three. it would be. in nineteen thirty three, my husband died suddenly. i don't want to go into that. and erm it's a sad, very sad tale. and then you see i gave up my home in liverpool and came to anglesey to my people. well i wasn't happy here, i wanted my own place. and i wanted to be doing something so i went i went back to nursing. i went to do midwifery. i went to london for my training. how long did that take? pardon? how long did that take you? the training. it took two years. because i took midwifery and i took a little bit of erm school nursing and general you know, so that i was capable take a district on anglesey. i wanted to be on anglesey because my son was at school by then you see in . he was only four and a half when his father died. after your training did you come straight back to anglesey? yes i came to back to angl to rhos-y-bol. well i did a little a bit round er like llan not llandudno. rhyl and that area. because my superintendent from anglesey, she was superintendent from as well you see. and then she was short of a nursing there and then i went there for a bit. there was a gap in anglesey. what was it like in rhos-y-bol? er quiet. people were very kind. very kind indeed. they'd share anything with you. and erm er they relied on you, they depended on you. always worrying you if there was something for the least. i think really they wanted just to get to the house something to talk about those days you see. the men were kind, very kind. nobody'd let me wheel my bike or carry my bag. if they were about. there wasn't kinder people anywhere than rhos-y-bol. the er the older generation. they're going now you see. was it a lot smaller then? lot smaller then. oh yes they've built oh dear dear, they've built houses and houses i don't know rhos-y-bol today. although i only live three miles away you see. and i left rhos-y-bol when i retired because i felt i they'd have to have another nurse there, and you see the other nurse would never be able to enjoy the they would always be running to me a and it wouldn't be fair to another nurse. erm they wouldn't she'd be alright for the first time you see, but they would get tired and then they'd be they'd be on to me. i mean it wouldn't be fair to anybody to start afresh there. so i left and came here. i bought this plot of land and built this bungalow on it. how big an area did you have when you in rhos-y-bol? it was quite four and half miles round the area you see. five miles in some places. you see the area and i did on a bicycle you know. not like today. you went twice a day in those days to the mothers and babies. and you visit them for there was one time we visit them for fourteen day daily but i don't think they do it now. and then it coul com cut down to ten days. but by the time you see i had the st david's hospital opened by then in bangor. see when i came to rhos-y-bol in nineteen thirty three, there was no st david's hospital then, all the babies were born at home. and er there was only the workhouse at that they could go. and i oh i fought hard i never wanted a baby to be born in the wok house cos the word workhouse to me in the old it was a terrible name. and i wouldn't like a child of mine and i managed just two i had to send to the workhouse and a mother and baby died there, it was a bad case you see. and the other little boy was born there but i used to visit him, i see him on the district and it always came back to me fancy humphrey's the only one shouldn't mention name really. was born in you know. it's a great thing to keep them from and to me in those days. cos i used to remember w er liverpool erm i can't think something hill in liverp wharton hill workhouse. oh everybody dreaded going there. things have changed, things have improved you see. what did anglesey people think about the workhouse? well in those days everybody was afraid and erm oh it was a blow if anybody had to go to the valley. valley was the name those days. oh dear dear it was worse than i c anything i can think of. but today you see, the valley hospital is lovely. it's a different view altogether. i've been there and i find how happy people are there. it's really a treat to go there and see how things have changed isn't it. people are so kind today. did you use a bike all the time you were at rhos-y-bol? i used the bicycle from nineteen thirty five until nineteen fifty. and i tried to save up for a car cos my son was in the army. yeah he was taken to the army from the grammar school in holyhead and i did want a car when he came home. i thought, i'd like him to think that i'd improved a little bit. and erm managed to buy a car and i paid four hundred and ten for it. just think of it. what sort of car was it? it was a lovely little standard. and then i m i exchanged in twelve months cos i was lucky i had put my name in two places to get a car. you couldn't get in those days d during the war you see. and erm i managed to get one twelve months after and that was an austin ten. that was a great car we thought you see. the austin ten and i had that when my son came home from the army. so he taught me to drive see and it was much easier then you see with a car. then th they added to my district then again. the rhos-y-bol practically finished. cos you went to some much bigger area you see. so i did a little bit of here and there in rhos-y-bol, relieving different places after after retired really for a couple of years. how many districts were there? well when i started i'm sure there was about twenty. and we we see we'd only have these small areas see. see there'd be amlwch, rhos- y-bol,well now it's one area see the lot of it. and then there's menai bridge, and nearly one there's menai bridge was one,was one. then the area, that's right, there's three or four areas that way again you see. what was your most common sort of problem? common problem? getting about i think. see the weather you see was bad if you had it bad but i i kept well in health considering you know. and you know people were very good. see people didn't have cars, and if it was now, they could only help me by bringing a horse to meet me or erm or a tractor if they half way. and then perhaps we could then perhaps they could somebody would shovel the snow and it was very hard in the winter you know, some places. perhaps you could c come from you see, but you wouldn't be able to come near amlwch or you could get to amlwch and you couldn't get to . they were h hard times you know. and there were no telephones you see when i first came. didn't get a telephone till nineteen well i couldn't tell you really. i was years without a telephone in rhos- y-bol. how did people get in touch with you? well they had to fetch me. they had to come see. in their own way. with a bike mostly, then i'd go with them on the bike see. but the t we did have a telephone to the post office when it first came. and then people were making use of that. but the post office people didn't like it again. they had to come, give me my messages you see. people left messages but that wasn't right again. so they didn't like telephones. then er the county then had to give us telephones. but really it was it years without . what was the prelavent case you had to treat? was it usually just childbirth? well it was erm i don't think i can remember . bleeding you know what do you call . what do you call it now . it was the babies you see that they were well you had to have the doctor to you. i only had to call mr once. to a case. and he was the superintendent of angle started you see, st david's hospital. and he came once to me on the district to me i don't know he went to others. and called him. it was a case of right in the face. post parting haemorrhage. and anyway he'd survived. and we took the mother to bangor next day in the ambulance. oh it was a terrible place to get the ambulance into. it was in the fields outside in the bogs there. and people just come here. and there was an old lady there and she fell down and broke her arm, we had a terrible night of it. but she survived and she lived and brought her children and they left to be in england again. they were english people. what was your most unusual case? unusual case? oh what shall i tell you now? well i've had cases in the bus you know. babies in the bus has been born. i've had them born in the car on the way the the mother have come to see me the father has brought her to see me thinking that if she could just see me she'd be alright. but anyway the baby's been born in the car before he got home. yeah. it's a scream isn't it. they're happy days you know. happy days and the money was small but still, don't worry. did that did that get better as time went on? oh yes. yes. yes, when it first came, it was only two pound a week. and i had to pay my rooms out of that. five shillings. out of that you see and my insurance and all that isn't it. and it wasn't a lot you see. but erm i was lucky mind. people were comfortable and i could always go and get something i wanted. and pe people were very g farmers those days. they were farmers those days, they were you know people with feeling. you see today it's the men servants of the old farms that are farmers today. see the old farmers they were very generous. what they had, was yours. potatoes,car any anything they had, butter and milk, you never came from a farm in the old days without something in your hand. when you were the district nurse. and the minister used to get the same. the minister was well looked after those days to. we were the we were the poor ones weren't we. when did that change? was there a sort of point when it all changed? yes well it changed see when the war came. when the er when the war came, this last war it would be wouldn't it. erm and people had been paying insurance i it changed then cos some of the farmers could go on their pension they'd been paying this new scheme you see. and then the younger generation took the farms on. that's when it changed. the farming changed all together. and our money was better by then. i think i was getting nearly five pound a week by then. well er today see it's my pension is three times as that. more. when you think . so i was paying my superann you see. i always paid that, it's a good thing i've done it you know. otherwise you see that helps on my pension today. in one way it's a great help. but i suppose if i hadn't got anything i'd get it from somewhere. i find those that haven't got anything are just as well off today. did you have a union? well i suppose you would call it a union wouldn't you. erm the midwives the midwife had erm now what did you call it? it was like a union for the midwives you see. er the nurses had but we didn't we more district midwives on the district you see. the things changed and after that. when you first arrived at rhos-y-bol, were you taking over from another nurse? pardon? did you take over from another nurse? at rhos-y-bol or were you the first there ? yes i did yes. the nurse had just got married. the district was only twelve months old. she'd only been there twelve months. did you find it hard to get accepted? pardon? did you find it hard to get accepted? no i didn't. they were ve no they were very good they were. they were pleased to have a nurse you see cos they hadn't had a nurse. the f the nurse before me was the first one. only they didn't know how to treat a nurse. er it was all new to them you see. they thought seemed to think you were on duty morning noon and night. they's come to the door any all time you see. but it didn't matter as long as you could help isn't it. you got used to it. get bad tempered sometimes but then were there any superstitions around? did people still use folk remedies? no i don't think so. and i don't think so really. can't remember anything like that. what was anglesey like during the war? did the war affect oh yes it did. cos we had evacuees here you see er during the war. there was plenty to eat here you know. you see they came from liverpool a lot of them. but they used to get very lonely. when they came, that was the trouble. but they used to i had my house packed to the wall. friends from liverpool i opened my house to. they would come see perhaps for two or three weekends you know. then they's go back to liverpool. when it starts in liverpool again, they'd come back again. i le let my an open house to my friends from liverpool. friends that had been kind to me. then they got very in er after two years after the was had started erm south of england got it badly you see. so my in-laws were south of england people and i opened my house to them. they came for the first lot for nine months, then they went back. they came back again, they were here nearly two years. my in-laws. from hastings that was you see. so i was i i had my house full all through the war. did the evacuees mean a lot more work? well i didn't work, i opened the house for them and they looked after themselves. i never fed them or they were to look after themselves. there was a bed for them you see. and a room to eat . and er liverpool people were very good, very kind, they always had a meal for me things if they could. and i used to get vegetables you see in from the farmers. and very often if anybody was killing a pig or anything, i'd always get a piece of erm pork something like that. not the people were very kind in rhos-y-bol. the old rhos-y-bol people. did that change after the war? changed after the war, yes. it was the new lots growing up then you see. they've been brought up different way haven't they. more . you see there was milk cheap and different things after the war for them you see. to babies had this dried milk and some of them got it cheap and i suppose there was no work and then they were poor weren't they. they used to pay me fifteen shillings a week. if i had my case at home without a doctor. and they thought that fifteen pound was an awful lot of money. but if they had a doctor you see, they'd have to pay a pound. so i used to try and manage. and i did too, managed very well. considering. were most of your patients welsh? all welsh those days. after the t after the war you see. but when the war came you see they came as evacuees a lot of them and then they never went back. and it got on from that you see. and then er people left the towns and their their relations. i suppose rhos-y- bol is all english today. i don't know who lives there. see all those houses they built . in your time as a district nurse, what were the greatest changes you noticed? see it's the war that changed everything didn't it. the war changed everything. and then went. and then the land you see they worked more on the land didn't they. the men did, farming took er more men didn't it. and then the camps you see, during the war, you see people were out of work during the war e before the war in rhos-y-bol. be sitting on the wall by my a lot of the men. but you see the camp when the war came, opened somewhere in er near valley and everybody got a job. and a lot of them went away after. w so er things changed completely didn't it. everything changed after. what about on the medical side? oh the medical side was wonderful. we've had wonderful doctors in amlwch. sir thomas , oh he was a marvel. he was a dear father and he had two sons, doctors. marvellous sons he had again. and then dr , he was a genius, and he was a born in and i knew h my family and his family knew one another. and you know i adored dr , he was a wonderful man. he was kind, didn't say much and worked hard. he died young in about sixty. a man that understood the people. we were very fortunate and we're still fortunate. we've got lovely young doctors here now. a dr from he was sir thomas's son you know lovely. so kind you know, nothing was too much for him. is there still a district nurse as such? pardon? is there still a district nurse as such? or is it now just er surgeries? oh no no they have district nurses now. cos dr offered me the the other day, a nurse to do my leg. we're awfully fortunate here. you've got a team of young doctors again,to see me. i think they're marvellous. we're most fortunate i think. i think the young people today, they're very kind you know. it's only an odd one i think. but mind you, people can be awkward too can't they. erm it isn't the doctors you see that are awkward. but people can be very awkward. i only found about one say a couple of awkward people, all the twenty years i was in rhos-y-bol. but they were the same family the same same people all through the years. the awkward ones. why were they awkward? just for the sake of being awkward? i don't know, they demanded more you see. er they wouldn't look for you when you were there, but if you'd gone out somewhere, oh they'd be looking for you. they wanted to cause trouble. for there were always something you see with them. er only one or two of them. and i think they're still there in rhos-y-bol. i don't think they'll get rid of them. they'll grow up and a little bit'll come from somewhere over there. mm. nothing gives me more pleasure now and if i go to the to the libraries and a young lad i say a young man like you will come to me and say, hello nurse, how are you? i's very well thank's. how are you? he said, you remember me don't you? well not quite, i said. but oh yes. and er you know, it's lovely really to see them and to think they remember you still isn't it. mm. i used to shout at them you know. mm. . my son used to don't shout at them mother, he said. well, i said, they are naughty. they were running round my house they were. so this night my son said to me, mother, he said, when those boys have grown up men, do you know what they'll be saying? i said, no. they'll be saying, do you remember a a big fat woman living in that their house, with a white apron running after us. they'll remember you like that you know, he said. it don't worry me how they remember me. mm. do you still stay in touch with the other district nurses? oh yes, but there's very few of them, you'd be su i'm eighty four you see. and erm you see most of them have k very few of them . i nurse hers was lovely to work with. and nurse williams into the clinic to see her, they're much younger than me you see. and they're lovely young people they were to work with really. it's only those two now i think. because you know a lot of that had died you know. they were a lovely little nurse we had in me and nurse williams from . she was very so now we're being recorded. all very exciting i hope they can hear us. so if we can have some good examples of the english language please. okay. up to now we've been covering one part of the neural networks. erm in fact we only cov covered one part of one network in fact. er that a form of continuous network er because it has continuous weights. vari lot of variations in different sorts of neural networks. we've had different sorts of weights difference sorts of inputs and learning rules as you'll see. what i want to cover now is a type of network that we study a lot in the computer architecture group and i've been working with for years and years and years erm called the n tuple network. n tuple method. it in neural network terms is a binary weighted. it means that the weights are typically binary in the network. so you can also use lots of different learning rules compar compared to the er networks you see. quite different. however even though it is a neural network however, erm you can see it is a pack recognition technique and in fact it was first developed in nineteen fifty nine as the n tuple method er by some chap browning erm i think cos i've never heard of browning since that paper. so what i want to do is to introduce the basic idea of what the learning does and how the network sort of works underne underneath it. and then show how you represent it as a neural network and the various flavours of it. straight off why it's more important or why it's important to tell you about it is because it's a very fast network. all the other networks we see, i think the networks we've seen not many of them are slow in learning. and they're slow in learning because they optimize er using this learning rule. exactly where the surface has to be. the n tuple method takes a totally different approach as you will see. so how's it work? well it's extremely simple and if you're any good at digital electronics it should be an absolute doddle for you. cos in fact it's erm can be seen er as creating functions in digital circuits. in very simple terms. one of the reasons for its speed comes from that. so we've got some examples here of some patterns that we want to learn using the n tuple method and tuple and tuple. erm example there of t. you'll recognize the t. now the first thing i should remind you is of course that to recognize anything we must have something to compare it against. okay to say how similar it is to one thing to another. i've talked to you about that before. but anyway we're just picking one particular example here and we've got a t. and it's a very small er example of a pattern. it's got three bytery pixels and the first thing you notice is the pixels are binary. they're not continuous. and in the n tuple method as it's first defined the er pixels were only binary. it's called the n tuple method is because the first thing we do is to take that image and break it up into a set of tuples each of n in size. okay? and what we've got n here we've selected as three and so we've broken it up into three tuples because another rule in the method even though it can be broken is that each pixel can only go into one tuple. so we've got the first one here f one second one here f two and the third one f three. okay. once you've done that what we actually do is to look for for sub-patterns in those tuples. of course we've got the training and testing the same as in normal networks. the training is of recording which sub-patterns occur or which patterns occur within the tuple. testing consists of identifying which of the known ones which of the known er sub-patterns er occur in my new input. let's just see an example of that. f one here is this sub-pattern here for this training example. we've got not x one not x two not x three and i think on your examples you've actually got them labelled. erm which means that each one of those is off. the logical er function there determinately simple. f two the second tuple x four is on x five is off x six is on and the same sort of thing for f three there. so what we've done is we've applied a simple learning rule which just says remember the sub-patterns. terribly trivial. and you wonder how it would ever be any good at anything. so that's what i hope to show you. once you've trained it like that to test it on this pattern all you do is take the pack into the system and see whether you can these tuples again. so here we'd actually have a match of all three saying that we've recognized it to a level three. okay erm on that particular pattern. now as it stands that's all it knows. and if if this was covered up here i e this this black dot was say made white let's say, we'd only have two matching and if that was made white we'd have one and then if we changed at all that top row we'd have zero matching. so what we can what it effectively does is count sort of sub-patterns within the whole pattern and how well we're recognizing those. it's rather like what we talked about right at the beginning we talked about picking out features from our image such as the the width the height er the grey area or whatever of the image. now in that case we had to select those measures er by knowledge of the problem. a tuple is a very similar sort of thing. it it's a it's a measurement area here for example, but all it does is record the binary pattern er under that area. we've actually taken three measurement areas. one here one in the middle one at the bottom. the important thing is that they're very arbitrary. you you don't have to know anything about the problem to specify them. where we're taking measures from the image er such as height width etcetera we'd have to know a lot about the image to take those measures. the important thing about the n tuple method is that you don't make any assumptions about the image apart from it's just a set of binary digits. okay. which is one of the the strengths of course for that sort of thing. so what we're doing effectively is seeing how many features we recognize in our in our er example image. generalization which we'll come to a lot later as well in a lot more depth er is very important in these systems. i may want to recognize this pattern as well as that pattern. but i may want to recognize that just as well as that. i e at the moment this pattern fed into these functions here gives us three matching functions. if we add an extra term to the bottom of here representing this extra changed pattern okay? this pattern will match just as well as that er our functions. i e this one gives us a a value of three. so really that's it as far as the n tuple method is. you're just measuring sub sub-patterns of the image counting how many of those match in training in testing and that count is a measure of similarity. you can think about it and it's very useful to think about it as a as a distance measure in a sense. it's a very complex distance measure compared to the ones we've looked at. but it is a distance measure. cos this whole function plus the summation of of how many terms match is a measure of how similar our unknown pattern is er to all our known ones that we've trained the system on. but it's rather strange and er certainly not distance measure but it is a it is a measure. and of course the whole thing is very easy to compute. really after the n tuple method was defined in nineteen fifty nine erm the next person who came along that did anything with it was igor alexander supervisor that's why i work on this area. got a lot to blame to blame for i must admit. what he did he saw he saw the method and saw well this is quite neat. we can actually implement it very efficiently in hardware. we can made a very fast recognition system out of it. what we've got here is a very conventional piece of logic that implements what i've talked about. we've got two tuples so i've given the example again we've got two tuples of two two one here and one here. we'd have other ones as well but just to show this particular example just to keep it small i'll make it small. we then have binary decoders. and as you know binary decoders list all the possible states of the input erm conditions. so here we've got binary inputs to there must be two to the two outputs i e four possible combinations. and here's the truth table for this particular decoder. okay? and these you should remember are basically the terms i gave on the previous page. same as these terms here except. so the decoders are actually listing all the possible terms of the inputs. the memory cells here of course recalled whether that term occurred during training. so i present this pattern i push it through the decoders and i see that that line's maybe is active so i put a one in there to record the fact that that logic term er occurred. and similarly for this er decoder down here this section down here. so training is very easy to implement like that with a few memory cells and a binary decoder. recall is similarly very simple you present the input pattern pushing through the decoders and instead of reading from these memory locations, sorry writing from these memory locations, you read from them okay. so in this case you get this r would be activated and we access this location here which would be summed into summation to give us our response of well two maybe in this particular case. and if it actually recognized it. okay so we can implement it like that in hardware but the major benefit and this was done sort of like sixties sort of sixty nine seventy was to realize that you could put it into a little package like that which of course is a random access memory. the tuple lines are the address inputs into your random access memory. the memory is just the memory the data input stores the one for the address location and the data output stores the output. and you've gotta rewrite signal to tell you whether it's gotta learn or to recognize the image. now here's an interesting story about this er. igor alexander who who as i say recognizes started to build these these little cells these things before random access memories came along. he called them erm, what were they something it was. something strange like that. but the point was that random access memories never existed when he first did this. and he went to plessey and asked plessey if he could implement these little functions on micro circuits. i e sort of er the l s i type circuits. and he got some packages made but unfortunately he didn't patent the idea because what he actually was made what he actually made was random access memories. erm and had he had he patented it or i don't know about exactly the timing, he might have made himself an absolute fortune. not that he was interested particularly but er it's an interesting story. erm he did that when he was at erm er now where was it kent, university of kent. just the strange things that again you know it's it's having an idea and recognizing it that it would be useful. it's something that er not always happens like in the back propagation learning and people who invented it didn't realize it was that that important and didn't advertise it. he invented the random access memory but er didn't tell anybody about it. never mind. okay so we can implement this sort of thing in er using random access memories. and as such of course in run load you can make this thing go in the order of tens of nanoseconds probably less to recognize an image. but as i say every year er if i ever find an application where you need this sort of speed i'd like to hear about it. erm there's very few applications that need to recognize anything in that amount of time. the only small idea that i have and i don't think it's particularly practical is for a sort of oscilloscope triggering mechanism often, which is in fact one you get in logic analysers anyway. but er often you might want to trigger off a particular pattern coming on the trace. and you might have to you have to do that in in the order of nanoseconds. but of course something like this would do that but you have to allow for the jitter as well and this sort of algorithm might might be the way to do it. i think there are a few others but not many. so if you implement it totally in parallel you can go very fast. typically we don't we implement it in software and even in software it's very quick because computers are ideally set up to implement these sort of systems. so it's great. it's the right sort of technology. we've got the right sort of computer technology to implement these erm we can move out from there into the neural network world. and of course it's very hard to see this as a neural network. so we could ask ourselves, well very nice but where does neural networks fit in. fact recognition method it's a piece of hardware and one of the things that's clear actually is that er the alexander worlds and all sorts of other people that were working on this don't look at them in this way and they look at these as i say ram blocks. erm as a result they call them weightless networks which we actually hate because they're not weightless. if you actually represent them like i've just shown you. you can change the diagram very slightly and they look just like the normal neural network. in fact it's very much like the higher order networks that i talked about in the last lecture er i think it was the last lecture but one, and the networks which pre-process the data before they're presented to the network by some higher function. what you have here is basically a single neuron with a of weights, the weights on the circles here are the binary elements in the random access memory. the weight you know the storage locations. the decoders here are just non-linear functions, they're just binary non-linear functions they happen to be but they're non-linear. now if we recognize it as that we immediately see that the method is, well why the method works in neural network terms. if you remember a single network is a linear classifier and can't solve non-linearly sol soluble problems. to get round that one of the approaches that i talked about was to pre-process the data. i e or formalize it in some way. force it through some some functions. so that's what these decoders do. er such that it is hopefully linearly separable. now one of the problems over all that is to say, well is it? how can can it always solve the problem? well it can't it doesn't always solve the problem. in fact recognition you don't have to guarantee that you will solve the problem. because even though this is a this is a linear network it can be effectively seen as a network effectively with a unit here and a unit here and maybe one weight. if it was seen like that you can't actually solve a erm a linear problem which occurs between these two sets of units. you will see that in a second but there are limitations with it. erm which are okay for fact recognition but not so good for more sorts of analysis problems. but we'll see that in a second. okay so you can view it as a as a single neuron with some er decoders . the other important thing is that the learning rule is not a graded descent learning rule or a searching lear learning rule as we've seen before. remember what we do with the network normally is to present an input get an output see if it's correct. if it is correct we don't do anything and if it isn't correct we use that error to adjust the weights. now here we've got binary weights. so it's either setting or not setting the weights and in the n tuple rule all we do is in fact set the weights. so we present the pattern. we could test it to see if we get an output, we don't but we could do, there's no need because all we have to do in effect is just set the weights of the decoders that are actually coming out. but the decoders that are the decoder lines that are active. sometimes that learning method is called the hebean learning rule erm because it's the sort of thing you find in animals erm donald a famous what was he a famous neurophysiologist. he came up with this how neurons actually did learn. by the way neuron i haven't said that but the the learning rule is n is not biologically plausible. and a lot of learning rules aren't biologically plausible. erm this happens to be as well. as an aside. for a multi class problem where you've got more than one neuron more than one class you might display the system like this. it's a slightly different way of looking at neuron networks than perhaps we've seen before. because we have this matrix here. but what we've effectively got is a neuron here a neuron here and a neuron here and we've got our three classes. and we pre-process the data as i say commonly for all the neurons before we present it to our three neurons. testing for these sort of systems erm we had to decide which of these responses is best. well as you see we can count the number of terms that actually match from our training sets. so this example here we might find that that matches that matches we get a response of two from here and we get a response less than the response from here and the same response from this. we have to make a decision on those responses just like in a normal network. now we could just take the pattern of responses out of there as being some classes. you can do what you like really. erm but the easiest one is obviously to take the maximum responding output from here as er an indication of which class is belongs to. okay so that's er a very straightforward sort of thing. the other thing you should remember is that there are all sorts of confidences that you can apply to these sort of things. that if we had a response here of two one zeros i've scored at the bottom of that, we've actually got two of the logic terms matching from this particular class. one of the logic terms matching from this particular class and none for this particular class. how well how how sure are we of this result here. well we're too sure aren't we. we're saying that we've got two of our our particular sub-patterns matching. cos we've got a response of two. here we've got one. so we might say, well our overall confidence is two but our relative confidence which is saying how different it is from everything else is only one. and you actually do get two types of of of threshold erm confidence in these sort of systems. there's this absolute confidence which is the absolute output of maximum responding neuron. then there's the relative confidence which is to say how much stronger is that particular output compared to any others. and both of those factors can be important in judging how the system's doing. okay that basic architecture is if you want the vanilla sort of architecture for the entrical stuff. erm there are a lot of variations upon it which er make it interesting and we'll see later also how the thing actually does work and all its properties. the variations to the system come in a number of forms. first of all that the input can be grey scale of course instead of binary. so how does the system cope with that. well we've only got binary decoders here so we have to cope we have to change something. maybe we change the decoders maybe we change the inputs. there's a whole section of how we do that. these this array of weights is binary. well we could have continuous weights in that particular array possibly. what what benefit would that do for us. of course it it screws up the implementation er if you want to implement in hardware and these aren't binary weights it starts to make the the circuitry a bit more complicated. the third thing is in this summation function, why do we use a summation function. i mean in the neural network terms we just use a summation function. but we should ask ourselves why are we using that and what's the effect of using other functions in there such as maybe an and or an or where we or the responses out of here or we an them. because now we've got a binary network we can do different things. it's the equivalent to in a neural network saying instead of saying the weights times the inputs all summed, we'll take each weight times its input and multiply it with each weight times its input so we do the product of all the inputs times the weights. erm what effect would that have. and that's interesting to see in pattern recognition terms. really that brings out one of the benefits of of using this sort of network because you can analyse it. you can look right into it and you can actually find out the behaviour of it fully. you can see how well it generalizes you can see how well you can implement it. which is nice. okay i think you've got a corrected slide here. erm this is my attempt at a formal definition of the network. erm it helps you if you want to work out exactly how it works and work through it. this is not the corrected version you've got the corrected version. erm and through this we can see where the different variations come in the system and introduce one or two other ones. what we've got also is indicated a bit of how we might process it if we implement this sort of thing. the sort of implementations we've got. we've got an input pattern. okay we've got er example p, er sorry class example p plus r. we've got a t vector which is basically after you've taken the input pattern just after you've tupled it. so we take our input pattern and we produce a vector here called t which we then present to this lot here. we've got a weight array which is the normal sort of thing we'd have. training is a simple p simple algorithm this is how you would actually implement it properly. i mean it introduces a an interesting thing. what we'd effectively do which code, what effectively do of course is we we trundle down here checking to see if any of these are set to one and if they are set to one we set a weight in memory. now if you're gonna be writing in software you don't actually look at it like that maybe and it is also a useful way to generalize these decoders. what these decoders actually do is take the input and assign one of four particular states. where a state is whatever the particular sub-pattern is on here. now if you view the output of these as a state number you can generalize the the behaviour of these decoders and you can generalize them to anything you want. it could be an x square function that produces a number which indicates which line you should activate. that's really how this is written down here. you go through all the example patterns. for each the example pattern you compute er this input tuple vector. so we take our example we put it through these decoders. before we do this we have to apply a mapping function m. the mapping function is important because as i say these wires are connected to these pixels here. i must know exactly how those are connected in which order. but as we'll see later the different sort of connections that you have er affect the behaviour of it. er if you get the connections wrong er sometimes it won't recognize it. so this mapping function is quite crucial in in the operation. so you map it onto the tuple array and then all the tuples so you take each tuple in in order. you set the weight one sorry the weight, it's probably it's it's hard to explain it like that, but you apply the decoder function f here f bracket to the particular tuple and you get a state j. so you set the weight for that particular state. w r i j, there's a j there there's a j there okay. so effectively we take our input pattern we take our tuple we force is through our function here we get our value out sum value of of the tuple and that's j and that indicates within the weight array that we're looking at which weight we actually set. funny way of looking at it i know but it's sort of to give you an idea of how how the different ways you can actually do this this mechanism and brings out the er variations. lots of ways of writing it. testing is the same sort of thing but this brings out the different functions that i talked about either summations or or products. do the same sort of thing you need a response array first for the result. in this case we've got an unknown pattern. we do exactly the same mapping our input pattern onto our tuples. we then apply our tupling function f to get j and then we sum for all tuples over all states the weights times the inputs. a very strange way of writing it again but basically it comes down to the following. as i say we take our tuple push it through our decoder and get our state here j that's the easy bit. but why write it like this. cos what we're doing is going for each n tuple we go through each set of states here. mathematically it's very difficult to do this. you could use a chronic adulter to actually write it a bit easier but er i didn't know about that when i wrote these slides many many years ago and it's carried on since. er we write it like this. erm so you actually scan down here and where you, which is abetting the state act from here, is one you set the weight in the memory. a horrible way of explaining it but er it's some attempt at some some preciseness. okay. as i say the variations on the system are alteration of this summation in here to a product or . and having that mathematical description allows us to change that from summing all the n tuple to doing a product of all n tuple. what that basically means again is that for this particular blank here that we're look at okay, the state value u might be one the weight might be one okay and we get that out of that cos we're just going through all these here and seeing which one's going to be one. we then instead of adding those particular outputs we don't we we sum them. don't forget that each of these decoders only produces one ac active output line okay. so in this case this one might be active corresponding to that weight there that that makes that whole ban bank set to one. this bank might be set to one as well or zero and then you sum those together which is that summation there, or you can do a product there's a product there. basically a product is equivalent to an and. a product is a continuous form of an and. we'll see what what the benefit of of that is in generalizationship in a second. what i've put down here is the way you alter that simple description to give you a continuous weight rather than a binary weight. during training what we do in the training algorithm is is of course set a a link here or a weight here to one if the output of my decoder is set to one. okay that's easy. in a continuous form instead of just setting a binary link here we actually count the number of times this particular line is set to one. basically what we're doing is to count during training how often a sub-pattern a tuple has a particular state has a particular pattern. and that's very useful in sort of more statistical type problems er as we'll see later. so basically what that's done is introduce the variations of the letters. i'm gonna go through each one of those sort of variations in a bit more depth er later on. but er i hope to give you an idea for that. so let's have a look at it and see how it works. i mean the basic mechanism is very simple as i say. first thing we want to have a look at is how it generalizes. as i say the method has got to recognize things it hasn't seen before. like with all neural networks. now normal neural networks perform generalizations by, okay having some space yep? having our examples here and our examples here and maybe setting a line in between that. such that any new example one down here can be seen as being belonging to that set okay? now thinking about what we've just seen how does that relate to that. very difficult. we've got our single layer network as we know so we take all our inputs we push them through the decoders and we've got our single layer after that. but there is a straight line in there somewhere. but we do this pre-processing. now the pre-processing makes the patterns makes the thing linearly soluble. so if we add an example using the n tuple technique of the exclusive or problem for example er like that we want to see how the network would solve that okay in terms of a single layer network. and like you just do ordinary skipping and you jump in the middle and it's h p w r. then h p w r and if it lands on p you have to go really fast. the first person has to start skipping in the middle and everybody says h p w r and if it landed on p the next person would have to skip fast. and what if it lands on any of the others? you just have to do what it means like. h you can do higher hopping and p fast and r round you gotta turn around with a skipping rope and w waives. and hot chocolate. what's hot chocolate? well somebody sa and they stand facing the wall and they shut their eyes and there're people at the end and they have to try and get to the other side without the other person seeing them. and them erm when everybody's been caught by the person who's at the person sat saying things like hot bananas hot milk and then when they say hot chocolate the you've got to run back. and they've got to try and catch nobody. and if nobody's caught the person who was it is it again. and we do tinker taylor. how much money they're gonna have and how much presents you're gonna get at the wedding and how many guests you're gonna get. and when the wedding's gonna be and what you're gonna wear and what you're going to go there in and how many children you're gonna have and how many years you're gonna be married. and like a lot like the guests you're gonna have at the wedding and the presents and the money and the children there's just numbers. like the children i think it's something like two four six eight two four six eight just keep going like that. and what about where you're gonna live? big house little house pigsty barn. there isn't very many soldiers that grew up at this school any more. we went a trip and there was two lasses and the class heather and and they were playing soldiers on the way back. well it was like the two soldiers and the one person just holds it the other person just tried and knock the head off. we do that at me granny's cos there's lots of soldiers there. soldiers was a game played with grass where each was armed with a stem and little head of the plant and by heading one's opponent soldier try to knock off his head. there were two kinds of soldiers. the brown headed ones were tough and could stand any amount of thrashing and the head would hang on quite a while by a mere thread. sometimes when it got worn like that it would twine round the other soldier so that his head could be pulled off. they other kind of soldier was black with little white florets growing out from the head. the stem of this one was easily broken and often the head would fly off at the first stroke. i wonder if they're counting out rhymes of our school playtimes are still remembered like. itty pitty penny pie hoppum lorrum linkum chinkum chie. wood stands though there by. or another where the leader chanted, as i went through a chinese town i met a chinese lady. players then asked, what colour was she dressed in? whereupon the leader decided on a colour for example brown. the countdown went on then,b r o w n spells brown and o u t spells out. till the one we called the donor was selected. the stems of mare's tails with their jointed stalks were disjointed to provide a little guessing game as to which joint was the broken one. the bulky leaves of ribwort planting were pulled apart to reveal the green leaf stalks. by the number of leaf stalks revealed it was discovered how many lies a friend had told that day and a long stalk indicated a big lie. for all i know these little games may have had their origins hidden in long tradition. the tinker taylor soldier game was played by plucking the parts from rye grass stems. further lines we had were as to where future homes would be chanting, a big house a biggie house a pigsty a barn. or with regard to the wedding plays, silk satin cotton rags or even if the offspring would be boy lass twins triplets or what these babies were to be rocked in. a cradle a ladle a pot supply your own adjective or a pen. is that nice? yeah i didn't realize how long ago it was till i'd eaten that. but i forgot i had me t-shirt on. no i mean i opened but i forgot i had to switch it on. i thought that would work. erm jill can i see please. no . philip. that was nice that was. is that the . is she alright. . people don't belch in this house. don't they? . next thing i know you'll be telling me people don't fart. they don't. you're a naughty boy you are.. jill let me see . oh my god . oh my god. oh my god.. what did you say? you'd better have a snog? has she has she met anyone? has she met anyone? ? mhm. aha . you know that is the most . is it there? is it turned off. aye that was a nightmare, i thought . it was because you belched and the house didn't like you. that's what i think of the house. rachel we've got to be nice to it . we didn't wait for very long in the did we? when you phone your order and they say twenty past they really mean twenty past don't they. i mean we arrived at quarter past and she said, oh you're a bit early. mm. they just don't like even attempt to make it before then really do they? mm. mind you it was that early so they might not have had everything sort of on the go and stuff. you've got . oh that's good wasn't it and how much did that cost you? . can i borrow it a minute? yeah blimey,. what have you got there jill? ooh i fancy that, shall i nip round there and get some? that was do you want any? oh no i just wanted to know if you wanted any that was all. you would not you would not believe what i ate this afternoon sorry? . yeah you know like a lasagna tell rachel. oh yeah, the dish right,the dish is about this this long, this wide that's not that oh yeah. it is. and it's about that deep. and i make that on thursdays, nice big lasagna. and i ate it all by myself all in one go. that's . yeah. yeah it's so annoying innit. . yeah. i think i might try it one one night, yeah? it's dead nice. you liked it. mm. what with a walkman? is that the microphone. i'm gonna take it to be . what are you taping? testing one two three. oh lee. never mind 's dictionary. put that in your dictionary. under b for belch. shit, i'm expecting a letter. they obviously don't teach you manners in somerset. i i expect a letter from they do jill cos i have . i expect a letter from her saying how nice that belch was and what what perfect notational quality it was . you're not coming to this house any more. rachel . what didn't they get on? she's got . yeah she has. she could look nice. that's stupid isn't it? going back to wedding bells after it.. wheyey. we should go on that? why? why yeah but you wouldn't get chosen. yeah we would. you'd set it up and like they'd choose someone else or something. i would. cos the other two are burks and you wouldn't. how old is she? fifty? cheek on what? is madge still on it? yeah. oh. how did you realize we'd gone across so early. what time did we get across at half seven ? i dunno i thought it was about half seven? eight. good grief. half seven to eight, what do you think jill? any different? yeah . mm. i always find the erm confectioners w you know the ones you buy it far sweeter. yes. because they add er sugars and stuff. yeah. whereas that is sort of straight from the it's got more taste to it, the other one's sort of mm. it's they're more artificial aren't they? i mean that is from rape seed, we've got a rape seed field behind us. yes. they yellow stuff it crystallizes . what are we watching? i don't know what there's a whole one in there. no that's mine . oh i didn't have a whole one, i bought a half one. if i'd bought. no there was half. yes there's a half one in the bag and there was a little bit left . oh i'm not saying you nicked it i'm i'm i'm thought i bought one. so i might have seen yours no i . and thought that i'd bought it. you know what i mean, when going through the shopping bit. no i'll see how i'm feeling the thing is i do want to go to enjoy it. when's that, in the afternoon? yeah. go in the afternoon then. get a lie in. yeah. yeah it's what you've got . is he old? quite good looking actually. in his erm late thirties. hair? his hair's thinning. well quite short very s smart dresser, quite trendy. he got he had really interesting ones like erm old people speaking, erm what else? loads of different conversations. here everybody's gonna have the same transcript though aren't they, they're all gonna have conversations at home, they're all gonna have lecture conversations. that's a good idea. is louise alright now? the things is though, i was saying, are you sure, i mean you don't know what c contacts made so you don't know how tall she was. you don't know how tall john was when he you know. and he's really pissed off. john who? john . you know, the one who broke his leg. well doesn't sarah remember . sarah wasn't listening, she was the one she was with another guy . sarah was talking to john she knew that louise was staying at dave's and he said, yeah yeah i will do. and then she might have been drinking. yeah but is a odd girl. i'm just saying that . mm. perhaps it would be better if . well she's because like we'd just like to cos she's gonna spend most of her time with dave and the people living with won't she live with dave? it's so annoying. why doesn't she wanna live with dave? why doesn't she want to? why doesn't she go live round there or something? she just wouldn't like it? no . she standing up against the racial stereotype with purple hair. oh is she? i dunno. perhaps. seen her doing programmes and this sort of thing. who is she? some woman who's got a hangup about racial problems. marion hates . cathy and angie hate who's , is she living with her? yeah. i heard her say to cathy, can i come round to your house tonight, i just want to get away from. she was gonna come round to ours. marion ways gonna come back with me this afternoon. oh what a desperate state of affairs. . sarah and shelley are very quiet. they quietened down i thought. do want and egg? yes please. erm the first two or three weeks . did they? yes they were saying like . and what was that about cathy and angie don't get one with? yeah, corrinne. corrinne? her and susannah go up into their room, lock their door with sally. sally, corrinne, susannah all go up there to corrinne's room to smoke hash all night . oh. who else is there? and who's the other one? sally. sally, corinne sally, susannah, corrinne smoke hash . is susannah the one with dark hair? yeah. yeah. oh cos she's the angie's friends isn't she? and cathy and angie just don't get on with them or something. they just sit up in their rooms and smoke hash and never speak to each other. but but apparently and susannah are extremely tight with their money and it's like you know, she was fussy to begin with wasn't she? and she gave up her telly for the lounge. but she was offered it and like i said she . yeah. cos every time they use it, she reminds them that it's her telly and that she er could have sold it and got the money . picky about people . . who does marion live with? er erm lucy and sarah. . lucy's the one . oh the one gave you a lift home? yeah and sarah's the one with blonde hair . oh god she isn't half yeah yeah she would. she's about . she's alright, ruth seems a bit bitchy. the pair of them together i should think . who else is there . you live with three people. compared to what? you don't have to. i here about nine. so did nicole after that? i went in the shower. after you let nicole in? yeah. oh right cos i they always don't they. i just thought she was she's got a cold and shelly was very quiet, didn't say a word. not exactly talkative. i don't know who she is. she's got blonde hair and sh oh i know who she is. she's quite stylish for her age . who is that, do i know her? she was the one who used to she was the one who used to s sell pullovers he can talk a lot it it really made me furious . so she was a bit annoyed about him and she sort of can you be quiet please, you know and . who was he talking to? steve . no . he dropped his donger on his and then he was singing frere jaques right and i didn't know the words to it so i just sorry i can't remember the words and he goes . ding dong dong or whatever it's called and that is . so she went yeah. and she sort of we went through it a couple of time and then she said,i didn't say it, and neither did jeff so i don't know where she got it from. because we used to sing at school,school dinners, school dinner, concrete chips, concrete chips, soggy semolina, soggy semolina, i feel sick, toilet quick, it's too late, i've done it on my plate . and i never knew there was actually a proper song to it, i thought it was one we'd made up junior school. so she was saying, if he was like was trying to speak and he kept sort of saying, pardon, pardon like this, he's done it to me when i was trying to speak. come on eileen did you? grey skirt and grey jumper. well it's been there for the past two weeks but now he's gone to l get a house . has he got a job yet? he's at london poly or something doing two year electric electrici oh yeah. electrical h n d. h n d or something. you could never imagine eileen or catherine getting frustrated like that though can you. catherine's sister down there flirting in her and reading vogue. it was something like laura ashley yeah. i'm surprised she didn't get i know it's a horrible thing to say but mm. do you suppose they cater for such a range of sizes laura ashley will do. louise . cos that was a size sixteen and she . rejects box, it had a mark on it. because she took it in, she's got rid of the mark. . i can't remember what she wore now. it was green wasn't it ? no it was a black t black top long sleeves and like a v neck . i can't remember. i can imagine it being a sixteen cos you know there was a lot of it and then it was just . mine was had no sleeves or anything . why you looked gorgeous. oh it was horrible. i liked it. well n i hate wearing stuff like that, i always have done. yeah. hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it. i had a scarf round my neck and stuff round my shoulders. drop one, pick up one, do this, do that. yeah i'll do some little holes in it as well for you jill. i used to love knitting until i used to make loads of mistakes . i was gonna crochet a table mat she's doing a striptease. denies having any girlfriends or anything. he says, only one girlfriend i've ever had netball queen and how many other people has he snogged . lisa found out about that erm mark was going to . and then he was supposed to meet her there he he went there and she wasn't there and then he went to the red lion and she was and erm she was like with him and she said and she said something like, oh i'm going . but she said mark said that she was flirting . when did you see mark? wednesday night. because she paid so much for it, over fifteen pounds right, because she paid so much for it because they're usually fifteen pounds each and so two would cost you thirty pounds and because those were so expensive . so that girl must have paid er twenty pounds for hers. she had her dress was slit all the way up. you could see everything. knickers on cos you like see the line. are you sure it wasn't me. no it wasn't you . oh that must have been what it was then. yeah it was. i tried to say to him, mark i think you're wasting your time. but he wasn't having any of it . and like i'll try to him basically i wouldn't waste your time yeah. because but then i thought then i thought well i'll here's rachel do you want to and then like it's be like oh i'm spoiling it for him. and i sort of said, well you know i can't really say obviously cos i'm not rachel. oh gross. did i tell you that mark's . and i was trying to tell him how did you know it was me? how did you know it was rachel? he said you. he said, i've only got eyes for one person. it was obvious it was. maybe it's someone else though. no he said. no jill don't look at me like and yet she openly admitted it the other day. wednesday night. well he's going a good way of doing it isn't he eh fucking hell, he's gonna get far like that. he was stood in front of me in the sandwich queue the other day and . so what does the purl do cos this is different here isn't it. why has it got lines in it like bumps like that? that's what it is because purl is . but why is only lines like that? because i've done two two and then knit two and then you . oh right. yeah it's like it's not very good to do it with that because you can't so if you wanna do a knit like if you're doing a purl yeah well hold on . right you do it like mhm. right . you see that stitch there? yeah. you that that was the other purl stitch because erm you put your needle in front then you just do like the stitch, same stitch but backwards. oh. like that and then you just take it off . oh right. then erm you just so you have to make sure you keep . can i put on? be quite. your voice is so annoying.. you seemed a bit distracted last night . me? mm. oh of course she's home. i don't understand what's going on prime minister. is norman lamont going has he been sacked. yes. and is he the new he was the ex-ch he's the ex-chancellor. yeah but didn't he say that he was gonna try and tory party. i don't think he would because he's done in the past. oh steve mcqueen. look look who it is. hang on is this the one with sylvester stallone in? no no no that's erm yeah. that one's called i can't remember. the one in the shower. . yeah i love that film it's brilliant. have you have you ever seen this? it's absolutely fantastic, you've got to see it. it's brilliant it is just the best. did you see where i went today,. do you know where i went today? you go through the other doors. at the ? yeah. yeah. i would imagine so . cos the group's too big? because the group's thirty one people. it's like being back at school. why haven't they got it in some of the afternoon groups then? i don't know because i mean a couple of people have changed cos it's the only time that they can have it. cos there's been such a timetable mess up this year . erm so she said, she'd rather just have fifteen or sixteen of us and just do an hour cos we'd learn a lot more which is very true. this is what i hate about politics, it's just . . and she's a teacher. but she does. my mum does. she's never voted anything else in her life. or my dad. my dad should be. oh my god it is. neighbours. no don't aren't they both gonna marry the same oh i love . he's still in greece. gayle robinson. oh des. who else did des marry? he was gonna marry melanie wasn't he? wasn't he? did he have a romance with melanie?he used to live with melanie. educating rita. oh this is brilliant have you ever seen it? did you watch that thing . when he was talking about educating rita. he is such an interesting guy. he was like came out of school at the . steve mcqueen. rachel, i'm sorry i'm leaving this here, i'll tidy it up. who else is in it? charles bronson,, donald pleasance, richard attenborough, james garner, james coburn, david mccallum. loads of people, it's absolutely brilliant. if you go round the other side please ann. yes i did call you dominic didn't i? no i mean you there. mustn't leave it there too long. do you? your marvellous cyclamen! you don't leave there do you, all time? ooh no! er indeed we've we hardly use that room since we had the territory room because that would grow oh that's right . so well! mm. and you see it's i should take it out now. i feel very ill! i will. what's that darling? the cyclamen, because i i've oh! it's so useful and we've seen it and enjoy it. i think i'll use it . is so very warm for it it's lovely, mm! there but it's simply glorious! hasn't it done wonderfully! you ought to in that glorious bowl! last ooh, no look who's here! yes, i know. if you put them in a hot room they don't do so well. put it in there. i wonder what it would it look like in there? ooh yes, it would, it would perhaps i mean exaggerate. mm. oh yes, i wouldn't dare ! it's been broken twice in my lifetime. yes i know. mm. yeah. this wine is a shot in the dark. it was very much recommended by the wine society an italian wine and i hope that i hope it's not full of this thing they're sending it all back for! ooh i hope not no! we won't try it ! well that's lovely! considering its name,was as cheap white. there are limits to what i'd dare and this isn't a cheap wine! no, well i can just imagine he's probably hanging down ! it was a cheap wine that i thought was it in ? that yes. er . he'll come to that club. one of his fathers, yes. girls, can i please persuade you not to touch the dish, whatever else if you need slide it then use , you see that mhm, yeah. sort of thing or right! doing it tidily is always the thing isn't it? yeah. well that's the thing i have i had to give up years ago. mm. what, trying to do everything tidily? tidily! cos i can't quite no, that's nice. i know, that's the problem. mollie erm please don't touch that dish will you that's, er chipped potatoes in there and oh let me see what that is, can't you? that's gravy carrots and peas. you've had a problem with damp mollie noel tells me? well it isn't erm specifically in the erm cupboards it's just erm because i'm now coping with who has acted like a erm shoemaker shoemaker's son do all your job i am coping with what he did thirty odd years ago oh! and it's all gone bad! i mean the erm i still had to have completely new guttering in the summer because you cannot get anything to mend the other walls because it's the wrong side! and the only bit of damp i've got is in one corner of the house but it came from a blocked erm pipe. oh i see! a blocked pipe. oh that's awful! no, no not a blocked one but i mean let's face it it's alright now, carry on being all er carry on now and mm. tha , you know we can have a run of erm yes. gutters they they they're in four piece, they're four yards or something. yes. and then you have a join yes. yes. well on that join i suddenly saw water rushing down the wall! you see that's a that's a comparable thing to what happened in ours and that was erm, i'll do i'll do that cos, go on. erm, assistant at any rate made water tip straight o out of the and down the wall you could never into the , into the cabinet and the old wooden structure! well yes. mm. it was! i had to clear it all off though the the original, what they sort of call, what the dog there oh really,! well they had to come out to i think that maybe you should have done much more actually, but i i haven't argued because he's so . it's no good him taking the bridge down out now, because he can't put the wall can't really re-brick there now much too wet! that's right. oh yes! can you manage love? yes, thank you dear. so that i'm suffering. the major thing i find so but i , my personal suffering was erm in the summer, frightfully! and you see, you know the ball over the gutters yes. well said it doesn't look as if it's been painted once since it was built! oh! and that's all yep. wrong! is no one any yeah. of this of these roast potatoes just there. potatoes. oh anne, come on! no, i'm not a potato person! you slimming? no, i just don't like potatoes. well i like potatoes. i always had hopes of you! have some more mollie. huge hunks of bread, i had a huge hunk of bread at tea time. go ahead. ah, you should never eat up to supper. that's right. i just don't like not really as though you'd know it! potatoes, i don't like have a try. oh come on! we've only got three bits there. no, no, no, i've got crowds there! really? i've i've probably got much too much. oh i think i'll leave it there the dishes are so hot! oh leave them. you couldn't possibly cool i'll get them. bon appetit! it's lovely! very well thank you. congress right now. cheers! cheers! mm! thank you so much for . that now. there's a very slight prickle with it isn't there noel? it's not supposed to be a fizzy is it? they often do that don't they, you get a little funny prickle. what, with the wine? yes. mm. i know, i i was given that's right! because it was well written up in the wine society i would descr describe it as nice, nice but innocuous. yes it's alright, it's nice but what darling? nice but innocuous, i mean that's oh i see. mm, you can. surely that's not as nice as well innocuous! and not nasty and innocuous. it has got a very slight fizziness though hasn't it? mm. yes. very , very slight yes. . which often it has. goes out of it when it's . well that's well i mean spumante and all, the lot of those mm. italian wines they're now it's reminiscent a that that can't be my deja vu who, cos i don't think you can in tastes but it's reminiscent of something to me. oh is it really? but i don't know what. ha. what? well maybe white wines are er spritzy aren't they? oh yes, and this isn't i think. not meant to be . it often gets a little a little secondary fermentation in the bottles. yes,i i it looks that's right. mm. oh does it? yeah. oh well. and it sort of fades. mm. you can if it's but that red one but it's very strange sort of i know that with the oh is that red? they'd already been i agree. ya. that is very strange! it sort of erm in italian wine once or twice but when i ordered this i took the care to order up mm. in the price range somewhat. mm. yes it's true. actually you're not fond enough of white wine are you to no. no, i'm not either i think no, no i'm not all that. red of the two. i mean i i you mean to say you ladies would have accepted red? no. oh nice! go and get a bottle of red. i'll go and get a bottle of red, quick. oh that's, no no. oh no oh,ha oh no, and it doesn't really go with fish does it? not really. mm mm. not really. david and i have searched high and low for it i don't see why not. but no but it doesn't quite i don't see why not. it doesn't erm not with fish in cream. oh does it improve the the wine at all no. . yeah. i think fish in cream sauce is a very nice is one that doesn't need a what kind of fish is this? it's very good. it's halibut. oh mm. by jes yes, it's very nice! i'm glad i asked but i'm glad i asked cos i couldn't quite work out no? what it was. well if i tell you a little secret about this. mm. it's up at the fish shop in framlingham mhm. mhm. and it now cheaper than coley! but sometimes so happen don't they? coley is two ninety five a pound. mm mm. and halibut fillet is two sixty. really? really? well cod, cod was stuff we used to moan when we children. yes. incredible! and it was the cheaper fish than, cheapest yes. fish. well yes, mm. i mean it was a common fish wasn't it? mm. mm. really delicious! they're trying to put us off in because of the mm. over fishing there's been. mm. mm. one you don't see much though is hake is it? no you don't and when we were children well we that's much nicer than cod. my mother used to do a much nicer. a great big piece of hake mm. and with as if it was chicken with erm parsley thyme stuffing oh yes. a little bit of bacon mm mm! lovely! and it was baked and that was lovely! that would be it. yes. mm mm! mm. oh yes, i remember grandfather who was very knowledgeable about fish we used to say that hake was the scavenger of the seas! mm. is that hake? a lot of people say they don't fancy hake . mm. well nobody used shrimps before. but the mackerel if it had been a mackerel, yes exactly! oh yes. the mackerel yes. is the one that mainly . i love mackerel! those that eat, don't say it. i des describe it as a dirty eater, mackerel. yes. mhm. yes. mm. well fruit sundae was rather well shrimps and prawns shrimps and prawns are aren't they? mm? mhm. and full of phosphorous. mm. oh really? yes. good for our brains. are, are they? brains. oh yes they are. are they? they're mm. the ones that shine in the dark when you're mm mm. coming home rather failing that's right. and you that's right, you've got to run and ask them. and i've seen you do it in a lot of them. i don't know whether it was oh yes! oh really? oh right, yes haddock was very . really? haddock's got phosphorous in it? yeah. really? mm mm. good heavens! look what i've done! oh bother! oh look what i've done. i've never known it as that. no, wasn't it a marvellous day today! weather was absolutely incredible! you know tha that his lordship er cut the grou , the field. really? yes! the field. i wish would cut mine! ne ne near the mm. in the holiday, aren't there holidays? why not, i've seen the i thought it was a bit early yet, there's a frost isn't it now? there's morning , i'm no i mean that erm if you cut the grass just before frost it doesn't like it does it? oh but then, this is only but when, that's right. you shouldn't cut that though, but er i think a lawn, not, no. no but she was sayi that's right. now really but erm this year's been so peculiar that mm. people are going to want to cut it. mm. their only choice. well i mean the normally it would kill the grass, but it won't matter this year. mm. i wonder if we'll get any snow? no, no, no. no. john the butcher at erm butcher this morning and i said never say it's gonna snow, i said, it won't snow will it john? he said well you've been right since christmas and if you say it's not going to snow, it's not going to snow! mm. mm mm. mm. this what about the birds? and i walked up the village this morning the birds were singing their songs mm. that they sing and the reels were i just think we've marvellous! we've had lots of rain! well the flood barrier! i know! well we a an shan't, we shan't and have a flood. anne is terribly on my side, she, still hasn't rained every time i see her! oh! i think, she said if you dig down a way it's dry mm. from nineteen eighty mm. nine still! mm. i wonder whether that's what er, i wonder i you see it looks damp on the top doesn't it? mm, very slightly, really but but if you dig down about six inches, it's dry! mm. so they they gone and what they call the head at least four times lately. mm. just walking in the garden i was very slightly isn't it? very slightly. mm. mm. though. mm. terribly frightening! mm, mm. it just would be so awful to move our lovely trees cos they're all so, so dependent, that's it! that's the the trees. that's all i worry about. yes! it's no good worrying about it, i do know that! mhm. it is but worrying though. well no, i've met pe also lady mm mm. and she said david said he saw a few snow flakes. well i said if i see three snow flakes we're off to tenerife! well we have, we have. mm. very slight snow shower about two days ago didn't we? yes. it was powdery. yes, like, mm very, a little powdery and and it didn't stay. we were on the way back from visiting mm. er richard, you know, and i mm. and i said, that's snow! mm. oh really? just powdery. so we half an hour of sleet once. mhm. that was . and it bounced and bounced and bounced and i thought it was going on for ages but it didn't. no. oh! soon disappeared. mm. have you got any fish left in your pond mollie? no. haven't you? heron took the lot! oh no! oh god! oh! and we were having lunch, a late lunch on what day did i say? on sunday cos they were going soon and erm james was clearing up the garden you see i've go , i can't i i can see gable yes. and the gables over on erm the lodge and i can't see past. yes, are they a bit nearer? i mean i it all looks the same yeah. to me. mm. and the heron you see is the same colour to me as the grass. oh yes! and james said, there's a heron slaughtering one of your big goldfish! aagh! you see. yeah. oh and we all rushed out and said, shoo! and it flew o , flew away. mm. and then ted and i went out a little bit later and we sa , we found two goldfish and two golden they damage them don't they? oh,! so they haven't got a or they no, they bite so, oh do they? no they , they swallow them. yeah. i mean they swallow them quite nicely. and sometimes they just and i said well that's ! next time. and the next day i went off and there wasn't even a snail no. in the pond. no. nothing at all! no. oh god! cos i think i've that's terrible! got a carp too. oh yeah! terrible! if perhaps you were to spread erm a wire netting over the pond mollie? well yes i know, but i'm not having that! but erm what i am going to do but i can't do it until the spring erm at least until erm has cut the grass for the first time mm. erm, out there. then i'm going to do what is the proper thing to do which is chop that to size with the same as that , yes! yes, oh yes that that and farm and yes. this black so many creatures black stuff yep! so they could be thrown over oh this behaviour, no, they're so inflexible with their programme! three feet from the wall from your you see, and they get their i see! feet tangled yeah. but i can't, it's no good doing it now because you see erm dogs can get in at present and yes. and rushing about and you needn't do anything horrid to them, terrible! i mean,you can just er oh no! a wire cage they, no just go away. i mean i've seen it them. they don't like it. no. they're incapable no. that's right. because of the erm it's not wire, it's no. just a a thread, you oh! see? and they get a bit mm. mm mm. my father always used to do that for his crocuses because the birds loved the yellow ones, don't they? mm. mm. and his daffs, he was going to use his, lose his yellow crocuses of the year so he spread black cotton oh yes mm. mm. and they jolly well learned yes, i know, simple. that that's what oh yeah. that it mollie. was there! mm. so we had to get used to the ending up in mm. black cotton against the sparrows i used to get really fed up with it! poor little things! and i thought i'd got i understand now what it was. knowing erm why all the purple cro crocuses good cook and i thought i've got no and at nights i used to feel like and i had got cos they've come now haven't they? ah yes, that's and i right i told you! all i've got all morning, mm. and i've got clumps of of snowdrops where i'd and some where i didn't know even know i had snowdrops and mm. now i have found those lovely little erm wild purple crocuses mm. i couldn't good! think what their was? right in the middle of a plot needless mhm. and they're all coming out! and they're round good! my ! good! and so i, i've found that there but i've, but i've lost my baytree. mm. how much but that's moles. mm. oh moles! oh dear! well they got down in the grass you see. there's quite a lot of them again this mm. year. they got them, mm? they have a lot again this year, moles. will we? mm. well i've got millions! well i have we? i must ring erm r eddy and ask him if you get them ? i don't know whether you can get them wi weather like this. oh! why do you say there are more noel? well i don't know why we've got more, but we've got a lot. oh i'm sorry! i thought you were prophesying. we've got some have we? mm! well i didn't know. oh! even in the back now. that is the . mm. they come from a bank and a ditch always. well you've certainly got them. well i've never get it before now right? now who is eddy ? well mrs 's son. oh! and erm, when i said to them because he's sharp so she says. my . well he's wonderful! and the wo mind you, he's much too heavy for me but of course, well my father was and they're arm things but i must get some fresh. and, i said well i don't know what i'm going to do without jack because he was so wonderful with my moles last year he said you haven't had me yet! oh! no erm, so i thought well brilliant. if he thinks he's as good as that then have him. trouble is, if you remove moles you just leave an evolutionary niche for them and they're another lot move into the field, you can never get rid of them because if you remove your own private moles another mm. lot come in, you see. mm. oh how lovely! but do you mean that they wouldn't try and oh they're really lovely! visit if you had your own moles? well no, but they won't over-densify, they wo won't make the population too dense, you see. i see. and th , you know,the they might spoil might be things. mine come in yes, i'm sure they will. and they go over the fields. yeah. yeah! and there are hundreds of the wretched mm. . mm. i consider four moles are too dense. mm. yes. one mole is too dense for me! mm. cos they always get under your favourite plant! mm. fay, can i pass you some more vegetables up? no, i'm doing fine thank you darling. but please encourage other people to have some. well i'm sorry i've been trying to. i have here. ha have some more veg. no,eat this one. and a little bit more. no it i'm fine thank you noel. i hope you're never looking at me but i have to dinner. why not! i put my life down to fish and mollie , you know that my i dislocated my jaw in november mm. mm? how? just eating a sandwich! how could you? cheese sandwich. i don't know! mm. and it clicked and i, well occasionally before and very occasionally and i might have i just the slightest sort of movement has readjusted it and this would not move at all! and erm i'm shovelling food now because it's so difficult! i still can't get it any wider . really? mm. nope. mm. drop more wine mollie? no thank you, i'm alright. . by the way those did i tell you they put me on some tablets to re to erm to erm no. relax the muscles, really? yes,. well there must be something in it because i feel so relaxed these days i can't get oh really! well that's nice! don't flap about anything! well er no quarrels. erm, somebody tells me that sarah is erm doing very well but has had a foul cold ever since she's been over there, is she very well now? yes, she went with a yes she has. mm. i phoned her on the fourth night to say goodnight to her that was all. spoken to her in the meantime mhm. and she was actually, at nine o'clock well she don't erm well in bed. mm. lives at foreham which is just the other side of . mhm. she was very bad at start with the new people but then i'll take her up mm. she can't make a commitment. but she can be very , she can be very secluded there. mm. mm. she can be just . i reckon she wants to oh it's a lovely little lane i've i've always loved that lane. i know you think i'm have you ? have you? yes. and lives on there. well i've known derek since i was six weeks old. i was taken there for the first time when i was six weeks old in a motor side car down from london to just within ten miles of bury st edmunds. why i didn't die i don't know! we well, a motor side car! yes, absolutely! i'm astonished erm because my grandmother wanted to see her first grandchild before she died. oh yeah. and she died about two months later. at six weeks, you see i connie. really? and connie, connie's six weeks younger than i and grandma never saw her. oh well she did but she had a grandson before that, she had a grandson who was born in eighteen ninety three and his name was on . i don't even oh really? think that in those days anybody would have considered taking a child out like that, you know! they do it now! that's right. it drives me in a car me up the wall! erm the things they will do for these new little things. i never used to feel i know. that mine were really here until they . did it have a lasting effect on you mollie? well, you can be the judge of that! no,got it i think, yes! but then you don't like motorbikes and side cars do you mollie? it's amazing really! no. well i used to ride a motorbike a and my father had a triumph motorbike because he bought i don't why he, why he bought it and he was terrified of it cos it was very fierce! and my brothers used to ride it, so i used to ride it and i rode it for miles! did you? then i rode it in a in an old burberry and i don't how i started it, i think it was kick start. mm, yes. oh it must have been. and then we were at frinton, masses of us, and we always used to go to frinton in the summer because one of my uncles had a house there and we knew the people who erm dad used to play golf and mother used to knit on the beach, you know. oh yes. mm mm. and we used to th masses of cousins there and erm one one of my jean, my cousin about ten months younger than i said, can i have a go mollie? and i said, yes you see, gave her a try and so she went if you know frinton you could go, in those days yes i know it. you could go round, well it's the same now, but in those days you could go round, past the summer theatre and down old road where we were staying and on to a and do a circle you see? mm. and we started her off and she went round and as she went past the second time she said i can't stop! oh! oh! oh! oh no! and then she went round again and we said well push so and so oh my! how awful! and nobody had told her how to stop you know. i can remember not being able to get off my sister's much bigger push bike, just an ordinary push bike oh yes! and i pedalled frantically round, didn't know how to get off again cos it was much too high. and i remember just sort of leaping onto some grass and just letting it go, you know, could of been . oh i remember them emphatically oh yes! now,. yes, i know, i probably learn you see because i borrowed when i was about twelve and i remember bashing into a nanny with a pram. oh, she was furious oh dear! with me! i bet she was. i bet she was. cos of nowadays, well they didn't then because she was beastly to me now! oh ! now this is where the meal gets a little bit french because i have sauce to deal with. so you are left with erm conversation i'm going to top your glass up with a no thank you darling. no. i had an experience with a bike when i was very small a girl up the road was given a bike and i had quite quietly learnt how to ride a bike more or less. mhm. and i, i said can i have a ride? and she said yes. and i went up and down the road and miles away then came back and i couldn't stop because this bike was very old fashioned and you had to stop it by pedalling back i know. pedalling backwards! oh yes i know. i've heard of them! and i i i remember those. well! pedalling backwards mm. and i said there are no no. brakes! there are brakes! no. oh dear! anyhow i steered it straight up somebody's drive into their garden. oh yes, up a hill or something. ! no. how awful! i've never ridden one but i've heard of it, with this back yes, i've heard of it. oh yes, that's right. yeah. be quite good, although you maybe do it by accident sometime and be rather jerky! that's what i thought earlier. that's very sudden you oh! see. mm. back pedalling, mustn't you? hey? yo , you might stop sort of suddenly. stop very suddenly. and then you'd yes,yo well i i i yeah, no i have actually got no. th ridden one. no, i never have but certainly but i have of that. well no not but i can remember riding this girl's mm. bike can't stop! can't stop! ! and so er er can mm. remember riding up mm. up this slope into a yes. onto grass or something. how are your erm, i heard about erm, i've erm heard sebastian lately but how is little romley getting on, is he alright? oh he's fine, yes! the mm. they make too much fuss of him and they bring him back yes. too often but mm. yes. good! and john has got an order to build a new orkingford chapel. oh at which would john's! at john's. oh how lovely! oh have they, good! yes. mm. and that's the second one oh that's lovely! since the war. mm? they had is it? is it really? they had new one after the war. why do they want another one? it's just isn't satisfactory. how extraordinary. no. john's gotta build a new one. oh! he's not complaining? no. no. and at your old stamping ground. gotta for what? to build one for chelmsford cathedral. mhm. really? i'm off chelmsford chelmsford? cathedral! it's ghastly! i gather it is. and so is the bloody bishop there! yeah but he's absolutely awful! very nice. and erm if you wanted to hear about chelmsford cathedral when estelle who was a humorous and eighty something but still on the ball she'll tell you about the who? chelmsford cathedral. estelle . who is that? sister. oh sister! oh yes and i've met her, i've met her! and erm ooh she's marvellous! yes. she's be ,ei , eighty six and she lives alone and she's she's absolutely ge again, the arch deacon, it's the arch deacon there that's the trouble! he got a bulldozer to bull , to bulldoze up the erm aisles and bulldoze the sanctuary and he's thrown away, god knows what! i mean there are, there, there were erm all sorts of things there. and his, and he got rid of the beautiful eagle erm you know, reading desk and he got rid of the bishops's erm, chair, the bishop's what do they call it? oh yes. throne? the bishop's throne! and he's put all wrought iron one there! yeah. well i absolutely furious! sh she won't i haven't been in go near it! do you know what she does? on is the erm erm, nearly next door is the old erm quaker chapel oh yes. the most beautiful building and nobody can pull it down, but not the chapel mollie? no, not . meeting house. meeting house meeting house yes. and opposite her is where the erm quakers meet now because they can't afford to run the chapel the erm meeting meeting house. meeting house as a big one and they are getting fewer. but she says i sometimes just walk across the road and go to the meeting house at you know well i've got a theory rather than the cathedral. yeah. i've got a theory i have a feeling there's going to be a great revival of people with a quakered mind way of thinking. yes i i yes. do agree. but the trouble is noel, in the meantime erm the quakers have fallen apart because the quakers have filled themselves up with sort of barefooted raw carrot eaters with beads well i know they have, yes i agree. with the and haven't, but haven't ever read that's right. the bible sort of eastern religion type, meditation and thing and it's no good at all! the old fashioned quakers who were sikhs and everything. mm. now, what i have learnt at college this week which is rather interesting i think. well i think you'll be interested. erm in the bible in the new part, the new testament, there's a er an epistle of james. yes. mm. well i am told that that is the earliest thing at all. i'd say that. that is his erm actually a brother of jesus in his family yes. and so it's very much as he was thinking and it should be in the old testament really cos it was written you know, before jesus mm. that's right. before the, before the crucifixion. erm, and it's been quickly christianized with just two little lectures at the beginning of two chapters to christianize so it was popped in for new testament and it's the nearest we can get to to teaching. and of course, it's totally jewish mm. but i'd say it's th it's th je , the jewish teaching as christ would have preached it mm. you see and it's for all the family. and there's, towards the end of the first chapter there's a bit all about erm erm er temptation and deliver us from evil kind of thing which is obviously rather from the, from the lord's prayer and yet it's, rather explained rather nicely and it, it's a lovely, lovely book! it's only five do you know, i haven't ever read it. i will do of course. i've heard about that. it's lovely! it really is lovely! and you really feel that here is a i shan't be able to walk home! really? it seems to be mm. everything sort of, in a nutshell, you don't need any of the rest oh well! of the new mm. testament, that's just quite enough, it's just a just th the jewish thing filled out slightly and and and a little bit less rules and, you know,i it's very, very lovely! well apparently chelms i've never read it , but i shall. we'll have a go, yes. well that's what chelmsford's got you see, chelmsford was was full of quaker! i mean, i can, i can erm quote the quaker the families who still live there. yes. oh, all the important people were quaker families when i lived there you see? and the erm the . the , i was gonna say them. oh the were appalling! ah yeah, the , the and i knew them. oh yes! yes. and erm what about the ? they're still there apparently the were oh yes, they're still there! and the were the norfolk more weren't they? mm mm? were the norfolk more, were they? i think they were. yes, i i mean i can't remember they and the and . by the time i can't remember now but they're at least five. i was thinking of them the other night, well they er, five at least erm they were th they were quakers. but er ,,and something else, i can't remember them. i di , i always think of the , i met one or two of those. they're a when i go through oh mrs , off the train and still standing there with her name on her side. mm. yeah, that's right. mm. yeah. oh they're lovely people! but er they ran everything. i'd been per wo ah i i feel that all this doctrine res religions are spoilt that's what i said! by doctrine. exactly! oh no! nobody believes that's wrong! any of it now! i mean i think no i know. i know. yeah, it's terribly sad! it's terribly sad! i think it's . even the bishop of durham, i've just recently bought one of his books and i rather wish i hadn't, i'm not liking it much erm he's still much too orthodox really. is he? you know he's still hanging on to oh he is ? and trying to mm. show well i mean you can't you mm. you can't get fish from prize thinking fish no. can you? no. but i know they blamed him for that. and he says you can because he says it's important for it to be a living thing that's got to change with the time. mm. in all that way he's quite correct mm. i think. it's just that he hasn't, to me, changed enough, he's still stuck up with all these various things. that really well i know let's face it, if he, if he was really convinced of the falsity of most it he mm. couldn't be a conscience to obtain his seat could he? well he reckons you can say it in a different way. you can say mm. it entirely symbolically and spiritually and and mm. things don't mm. have to have happened in fact. and that the stories were told to make a point and mm. the trouble is, people have lost the point and kept the story! erm, you know, it's saying that well, the earliest man who used to think like this was albert . yes, oh yes course it yeah. was! he wrote that marvellous book! oh well a lovely book! i've got about six of his books in there! well i had all of his books. famous no, er, you mean erm i know quite a few . the er christ, the historic jesus. yes. with that famous last that is his best book chapter which is so lovely when yeah. he sort of says well you still can spiritually meet jesus even though you know, it's a rather lovely the last chapter! i say, he moves him the more you search for him historically yeah. but there is a there's something hanging about still. but in a funny way, perhaps there is. i don't know. i'm very very, very, very, tied up with it, i i i invariably turn relatively happy with it all. i don't think one has to worry too much. been brought up so much, bought up a christian yes, you just find it difficult to to admit that one's rather you know but certainly that epistle of james, to me, was just marvellous! just everything! i, i can't mm. ever remember reading james, if i had, i've forgotten about it. mm. but i shall read him tonight. well certainly, you'll enjoy it. oh did you go to 's er ? yes. er i chose the reading. oh did you? oh yes. how lovely! yeah. mm. mm. yep. it erm was very nicely done! louis was very upset cos she forgot to erm have anyone to take the names erm well so i wrote down as many as i could think of mm. and erm and i asked margaret , they had a better view where she was mm. and she told a lot of other people and so i think we got a pretty comprehensive list actually. oh, we couldn't er we no. we couldn't go anyhow. no. it was very packed in there but i couldn't see a lot of anything. but i was glad we couldn't because they asked me to read the lesson. no it it's miserable! oh yeah. it spoils everything doesn't it? i'm glad to say mm. and stuck to it. i think there were some people there who didn't really know, but they maybe went because they'd got to a funeral. well it wasn't erm oh it wasn't quite full enough. i think that's awful don't you? i i do, i do mollie! but, we're doing the right thing for i the wrong reason. no this was probably, a relatively that's original idea. that's the, that's the wrong thing to do! straightforward from there. just having a cremation cos you're talked into doing something . i was, it's not a very and it's not very popular now. after. i must say, david worshipped rather well. but steered round it, saying how he admired them you said it. you're obviously going to make his daily up and down the village and and er i said one or two things you know, things you could say that's quite erm true. and he did decide that i would like a cup of tea i wanted to say he had a great dedication. and she said that if you couldn't go, or telling him. and he was the only man in the british legion who'd ever bought that's right darling. a drink. i i can manage see me any time you want. no, i did come . he didn't like. david he didn't. me and i usually always tell him off. and i've met people there who i know i knew. yes, that's true. and i that's true. absolutely! oh sorry! but i thought it wasn't no, no, no, that's right. no, when people are dead you must see you bury them. now mollie that's, i haven't given you a large helping but it's a ginger pudding. i've been dying to make a good ginger pudding for years! i like ginger pudding. so wait and see if it's any good, i don't know. there now mollie, there's some cream. erm, sorry, some custard. sauce! no i'll i sauce. oh sauce. erm, is a, is is sauce essential? i should think on this. it it okay. moistens it. it's an egg custard so it's, you know it's worthy oh well of your attention. i have, if you oh! don't mind but i don't like heavens! come on have some ! i don't like normal cream on everything. and it's only small helpings because you can come for more, okay? normally i'm staged up on the straw potato you see. smart girl! good potatoes! erm erm thank you. they're good for you some of them don't like i wish i liked them just plain boiled. because erm i think they don't like them really. i think what was that darling? so as they're not, not just plain boiled and nothing else yes. with them. what i've done with these is er or er boiled part were they? parboil them. yeah. and mm. then pop them into that's loads yeah. thank you. and pop them in with the and . and i love them in their jackets! but not down in also company, because i can't cope very easily with no. with my . i love jacket potatoes, then i won't, with a jacket i don't like the jacket. oh i love the jacket! oh i love the jacket! you see, i love the jacket but i can't cope because i can't cut it properly. yeah, i'm like that. i'm always torn between conscience, eating a jacket or letting the birds enjoy it. yes. the birds do you see. mm. don't they, they love it! that's right. wish we'd got another robin, we haven't had one this year. no i'm not, i haven't got a robin. oh i could we haven't one that comes on our no. it's just no. at the last minute now. talking to my or something, i mean why should he die? i mean, my robin still comes around and tha , that's my joy! i always yes. know when the robin's there. we like them i have every year. to be there on the mm. you know. cats are very bad for them aren't they? cats mm. catch them easily. mm. we haven't got any cats lately i don't like cats. round here at all. around our house. i've got terrible cats! one little nervous cat, it's such a nuisance to me ! so is mine! he comes over he does all his jobbies in my garden! mm. and he scrapes up all the soil, you see this , well lindsay hasn't got any soil, she's just got grass, so obviously it go , comes round! oh! can't you stop it? well i put some nice pretty flags on my flower bed cos it seems, well i just did it, you know and they're all, they're all is that , tell me is that boy with the imitation chap outside? mm. mm mm. no. well we the scot er we call him what do we call the scot who lives along the way? i call him, i call him edgar. edgar! we call him edgar, is i that a first name? mm. what? next door to the post office. the door at the end cottage. yes i know. no, no that isn't a girl, it's a boy! no, no, but mine is a girl, this one's mm. a boy but the one next to me is a girl. why mark's at her? really? mm. oh is it? mm. oh yes. perhaps he has boys there so it's not surprising you get them. but that's nothing to do with this one nearby. no, no, he's no. a boy. mm. mm. i see. ah! i've made a, one little mistake, i didn't tell you edith! ah? erm i went in the mill to get some wood and noticed this young man and, i think i told you, i found him smoking in the, in the porsche. mm! well er i i said to young er what's his name? da da do erm daniel who owns the mill ah, the young man you've got there working for you he said, you're wrong it's a girl! oh oh! really! we well was it to her that you said it was a girl! don't you dare come over but i can't here smoking? yes, don't you dare come over smoking! yes, yes , mm. i can't tell the difference wha erm no. erm, i mean very often the girl's hair is shorter than the boys isn't it? mm. mm. she, in fact did look at me rather palsely once or twice. oh! mm. well john thinks everything german is that mhm. much superior to everything british! oh gosh! so the blasted erm mm. germans in the factory now you see! mm. mm. i don't think they're any better workers than ours mm. on the whole. no. oh no! no, i don't think they are. not for and our a minute! our people need the work! i said that, as a matter of fact, absolutely so! yeah. you try telling john that! i'm surprised they get work permits cos america won't give them work permits will they? people have a terrible job oh it's common knowledge you see. well now of course! mm. now damen's erm erm erm daughter damen who was waiting to go to holland is it holland? yes, amsterdam i think somewhere there. and erm on a job er on on an english railway starting with starting a factory out there and they are going to manage it she's worried stiff you see because she says now er, germany and holland are starting to move in the recession and once they're there if the recession comes they'll tack up her husband immediately quite rightly! and and they said they, the erm and anybody there and and chuck out the english workers because the ho , the erm dutch don't want english workers you see! and yet, we have them over here. yep. we have them over here and they say absolutely! exchange we had a letter a few weeks ago, at christmas time from erm the er, what is it? spain, portuguese yes. er right. family that we know and th , they're, one of their sons is fo erm in london i suppose erm adapt here and he's rather upset because she is now coming over to britain to work for telecom! oh really! oh gosh! now why? oh dear! i don't see it! and i don't think they well why can't some of our yobbos go away and get jobs elsewhere! mm. yes exactly! mm. all our mm. few unemployables. ha, mm. mm. really how i this this it's ridiculous really! this funny creature out of mars but she's not very nice if she's female! wilf wants to , wilf wants to know her . i trust you won't be any more churlish, telling her not to smoke in the wood shop! course i shan't tell her tha , i, course i shall tell her if i find her smoking in or near the wood yes! shop! i think so! she'll get even stronger! mm! yes! yes! ! mm! yeah! mm. oh no but no course it i i it's er i i mr discipline. oh yes! yes. that's not quite right. the same. john's doing jolly well isn't he? oh yes! he is he's just got well you're very lucky cos so, you might have easily of had nobody in the family oh absolutely! it would take on. well yes! he might usually. mm. he's just got chelmsford cathedral. oh yeah! getting a new order mm. for lincoln's inn. really? mm. and st. john's college, cambridge. yes. st. john's college mm. cambridge. yeah. could i tempt somebody? a tiny bit, that's lovely thank you. a slither. absolutely delicious! well it's got real ginger in it, i think that makes oh nice! it so good doesn't mm. it? very nice! do you know this was on food and drink last week on er, on the television. oh well, how so when what did they do,it was going to be i didn't that's right. quite mm. . jolly good! and help yourself to the, i'm sad to say that that has curdled since i put it in the jug, do you want me to change it? do you ever cheat and put a little of cornflour it's not gonna fit in though. oh it has though, that usually stops mm. it. and i thought i'd caught it. yes. and i had caught it, it was all over . no it will, no tell me, what kind of ginger ? what fresh ginger? er no, it's erm a flavouring beginning with r it's a flavouring is it? is the the erm er ground ginger of course. mm. and then the and then, this stem isn't it? and this is the stem ginger. stem ginger, yes. oh yes! this is lovely! will you have a soupcon more? not for me. stem gin in the in syrup. in syrup. oh yes. yes. the whenever i want to erm i want to buy ginger dry ginger to grate do you want some more? you know. pardon? do you want some more? but i usually take mine no thanks, that was nice with ginger rather than the ginger and and it's not what do you use then? the fresh ginger. no, no, the dry ginger! oh the dry ginger this is my ugh! dry ginger. like rocks isn't it? mm. what? how can you do that? it's li , it's like rocks isn't it? well you well you halve well it you see and i mean and you put it on that i mean i was thinking of making gingerbread mm! you grate the ginger mm! and as much there that's the , you grate it very fine used to it , yeah. yes but, you see when i try to buy some i think the frozen fish is, shop in woodbridge is silly, damn silly place anyway! and erm they offered me a green ginger you see mm! mm. well now, what could you which isn't what you wanted. do with green ginger? you put it into casseroles and things or into the fruit is it for chinese food yes i know but do you eat it or do you just put it in to flavour it? i think mostly flavour it, i i i suppose you can eat it but well it's a waste of money! and you put it in chinese food! but you can eat it. oh yes, but you put cloves in and you don't eat them, but they flavour it. to do a ginger, i i've eaten ginger of that kind oh you eat it. beat it i in chinese dishes. because i got some by mistake cos it, yes i know it in chinese dishes but i don't quite know what they do with it. mm. it is good piece i hope ? well they were, they were qui , they were as big as that. mm. i chucked it out in the end. if i went to put it in, i was gonna say and i went to put it in er cos it dries off doesn't it? mm. if i were to put it in er stewed apples or something i wouldn't eat the actual ginger but in a casserole, it's nice. no, but there's no point in putting it in in erm apples because you grate your dried mm. with them you see. mm. in there. or you can put erm ginger i don't in a syrup yes. you can do that. yes. yeah i like that. i've got a lot of, quite of lot of dry ginger, dried ginger. erm a little bit more just a touch more mollie? not for me, no thank you. none? i can remember the first time i ever came across dry ginger one of my school girlfriends was giving me a recipe, which, for which one er fo for erm ginger beer mm. for christmas, and it was delicious the way her mother made it so she started it with me writing it down, see, and she told me the ingredients and then she said you brews the ginger i thought brews the ginger? fancy her saying it! she was my grammar school friend, you see. mm. you brews the ginger, so i thought well i'm blessed! and of course it was ages before i knew she meant bruise. mm. once i started to make it i realized,o what it was. , yes. b r u i s e. yeah. mm. but it sounded very mm. peculiar! i i must say! yeah. yeah. mother used to make wonderful ginger beer and we ooh! were bought up on it! it's a wine merchants now. yeah yeah it's a an off-licence. oh! not oddbins, it's the other one. no, the other one. oh yeah, well i've never even been there before. look it up again then. yeah, there they are, those houses there, you know where them new shops are? yeah. seconds out and all that? yeah. mm. that, that was o , there's brill there, see. oh yeah,brill we used to go up there, then their house there and th , and that pub was here. oh what the exchange. exchange. wheatsheaf? and tha the wheatsheaf, they've knocked that down. yeah, it's not there. dorothy perkins is there. yeah. and that's oddbins now innit? yeah, there. can't get out of my place can you ? how the west was won ! wore cap ,wore caps ! didn't they? wear pa , caps and big moustaches when they grew up. well everybody wore caps in them days didn't they? yeah. we even put a boater on. yeah, he has, a straw boater. must of been a butcher or a baker. or a candlestick makers ! or a candlestick maker! don't keep farting! red lion. near my mum's,. yep. that looks like a canal along there dunnit? hey? looks like a canal on there. yeah, i thought it was. no. what is it? it's a we wa wet road innit? yeah. yeah, it says here, on a sunny day the avon and wokingham canal. no, that's not even water is it? it's just wet tarmac. yeah, it's a wet tarmac. wet . that's the bit they've knocked down to the put the smiths and that, the other side of it, this bit. mhm. oh there's the king's head. yeah. oh, so there's two together then? yeah. yeah. next door to one another. there's the red lion there and the king's head here. well it used to be a coaching inn didn't it? the coaches used to go through there. the same as the roads weren't it? mm. and the bus. yeah, well th the roads actually,yo the coaches used to ta , you actually walk through the middle bit don't you? no. yeah but yo yo you do there don't you? the coach. you walk down the side of the yeah. pub there? but that used to be it, cos you go through that ar i'll just close that door for a minute, because my yeah. goodness the wind! that is er, yeah. mm! hello again! hello john. er yes please? yes please. er two slices of ham please? right. one twenty nine please. and his bit of fat please, for the birds? if you may? anything else? yes please. what about er, this steak for braising john? yeah, that's alright, yeah. it's nice, is it? yeah. a pound and a half please? thank you. do you want it cut up? er, no i shall use it probably in in ? se , serving pieces. yeah. that's lovely beef that you know? yeah, it's lovely beef that. it looks nice. you'll be alright with that. pound, five ounces, do you want a wee bit more? er, erm can i see it? you can have a little bit more, here are. i think that's yes, just a wee bit more to bring it er yeah, just a bit only a little bit john. thank you. yeah, that's it then. pound and thank you. a half. alright? yes. anything else? that's all just now thank you. thank you. that's four seventy five then altogether. thank you. and you've put the price on the eggs, i expect? yeah , that's on the box lovely! see , yep! thank you. yeah. there you go. thank you very much. alright thank you! thank you very much. can i have two chicken breasts please? bye bye then ! bye bye john! yeah. butter please thank mam? you? thank you, and i think the only other thing i need is erm you haven't a small caster sugar have you? no, only that big just the one we , er, i'll take that one then mhm. thank you. thank you. and unless i'm being stupid i think that's really all i need this morning. mm. i've got veg. one eighty two. thank you. say it again for me, pam? one eighty two. thank you. i haven't got the two is that alri , are you alright for change? yes, yes. thank you. thanks very much. thank you. thanks very much. lovely, thank you. i'm glad you're keeping your door shut because really it's a bitter wind today oh! isn't it? terrific wind today, yes it is! yes, it is! bye bye just now! thank you, bye bye! sorry! hello stanley ! good morning ! it's me! hello. noel didn't come? no he didn't. he's got some writing he's got to get on oh yes. with down there. erm yes, oh and you you haven't got your nice fire on yet? it smoked like the devil! oh! come through here. ah! oh oh, that's better! that's nice! so you're sitting in here at the moment are you stanley? yes. yes, why not? why not? why not, indeed! it is the bitterest morning that i've oh it is bitter! thanks, it's lovely! it is bitter. oh that's a beauty! isn't it? and what is the fi , is the kitchen erm chimney needing to be swept or something then? er, no the dining room. er, i mean the dining room, sorry! yes , yes, oh yes i've well you know the fires on that i had in all the winter i'm going to get on that today. i know it wants er, sweeping. yes. yes. it's smoking. yes. i da , i i i tried to but i'd smoke the place out! aha. oh that's a pity because that's the room that you aye use a lot isn't it? oh yes! aha. but because this in the centre is the warmest room cos there only one door here you see. yes. that's true. there's five in that other. yes it's lovely! my goodness it's erm we were all saying yesterday it was summer! noel cut the grass yesterday can you believe it? and i did he did? yes. and i weeded the front garden, some of it. erm and now look at it today! it's really cold! ye , yesterday afternoon, as a matter of fact, i walked up to the gate and i come back and i just walked across the lawn and i i felt the sun. yes. yes. yes , felt the sun. but after one that turned cold again don't it? it does! it does! oh it's ! yes. and er, it was funny yesterday morning the birds in the village were singing just in the way they do in the spri , in the spring, you know, first light. yeah, that's right. and i thought gosh, if they don't know what's well they've got another month before spring in. that's true. well that's true! yes. but you see you take it for granted. tell me stanley erm, i brought your medicine from the doctor yes. er, was that because you've not been well this week or just is it a ,ro routine replacement or something? well no, that's erm er, water . yes, but i, it's not because you've not been well? no! no, no, no, no oh that's fine. no, no, no, no i , no it's a i i it's old trouble. yes i know. i know. it's old trouble. i think i know. he's more interested in women than anything else! oh! it's sad isn't it? it really is, it's sad! i don't know, he come, he said to me er we we well he come over, you see when i come home from hospital he sa , he had to report to come and see me he was a long while before he did come! but er, he he hopped on one day and er had a talk with him and so on and took my temperature and pulse and that, this, that and other, he said well i'll call again he said, when i'm by, but he never did! mm. he never called! mm. i don't think he i had to ring! yes. and i said to him, i said well i hope i don't mind er me ringing the doctor, well he said no that's what we're here for. but he said, i've got three hours of paperwork! well that's nothing to do with it! absolutely! absolutely! nothing to do with it! i mean, it doesn't stop him from going shooting and fishing does it? oh no! no, no, that's the thing. i think he's a little bit envious because er, i took those meadows back, you see. possibly , yes. cos he used to go shooting there and and they went in there and they shouldn't of done because michael told them i'd taken meadows back and he sa , he said when tony told them, they, they'd been there shooting he said well they're, they're out of bounds! mm. mm. he said i told them that. mm. mm. but they took advantage, the boys did and they don't care at all! ye , yes that's right, mm. they take liberties . yes, they do , they do, it's a shame! i think that a little bit apprehensive on things like that, and course when he saw tony asked whether ga , whether he could go and tony said no, i'm sorry doc but that he said i've got my ponies and things there and i don't want people shooting there! of course not! no. there's them foals from , round the back, they don't want them. yes. aha. i'm sorry to keep on. but i'm sure you go down there yourself. yes. yes, that's oh yes! true but they,th th th they just walk on, they don't have to pay anything no. ! no! no ! walk over you! well they just think they're in a privileged position stanley! yes! and the only privilege they have is of looking after us isn't it? yeah, that's right! yes, that's right! really! yes! and getting well and what you paid for it! what you've got, they're entitled to! absolutely! that's right ! that's nice of them! yes, absolutely ! well that's right innit? yes. oh dear oh dear! oh heck! well, so there you are and i told them, he he said that he wanted erm a urine sample you see and so of course when the nurse come after he'd gone, later and i kept waiting and i thought to myself well i want to know the result! yes. jackie said, well ring them,sh he should know something about it! yes. and that don't take a week, week to test anything like that! it shouldn't do, no. when it's gone to hospital. and, i rang, i better ask him you see, and of course, who was the lady in the office? oh she's called jean. she's very nice! who is it? jean, her name. jean? i don't know her other name. she is a very nice person. a very nice person. yes. she is. polite and such like. that's right. yes! that's right. yes, i i think to, well what a nice person you are to, to talk to! yes. nice personality i shouldn't very nice! reckon. and i got that, well and she sa ,she said er, when i asked them fo for some er tablets he said alright, can you send down for them? i said yes, he said alright i'll have them ready. they'll be ready. and same as those, she said, they'll be ready any time after lunch, so i mm. said thank you very much. mm. and er mm. but erm i said to her over there, i said er, well excuse me i said er da er er a doctor , i, i said took a urine test for me and i said i want to know that i, if he knew the results? she said, well i'll look up well he never told her and he never told me! no. no. and so she looked up, she said, that is right she said, alright, and er he prescribed some more water pills. well why didn't he get on with it? people complain that these tests seem to take longer than they need to. well i think so, yeah! whether the hold up is at the hospital or in the erm surgery i yes! honestly don't know! but it does seem to take a while. oh dear oh dear! oh what have i done? what? oh! oh it's just a you can't be yes i can stanley it's just a it's just an outdated bill. is it? that's all, came out of my well pocket. the thing is, after all's said and done if er,i i if there's a little pain i get it, not him! absolutely! so he can hang on can't he? that's right! there's a no, i don't think he's too obliged as he should be! no, he's not a, i don't think he's as a as some they tell me that is a, is a, a lot better value. he is wonderful! they he say he's a nice little fellow! my gosh, he's wonderful! everybody wants him you know. yes. i should think his list is absolutely full by now. yes, of course. erm, the first time i met him was when he was doing a very tricky stitching job, i took mollie up yes. because she'd cut her leg yes. and er i took her up there and her si , skin is like tissue paper yes. i don't know how that man managed to get the two edges to meet but he did a wonderful job on it! and he was so nice to her when he was doing it. yes, he's a nice person of you're very nice! then mrs erm er,, you know, who had the mu oh yes! she think a lot of him! lucky girl! yeah. those people who live there in, up in framlingham are very lucky! ha? yes. and those people who live near enough yes. you see, to the main surgery. well of course when is out, they they give you the the 's number that's right. in fact, one time when they was out they give me a number, i go , and i got ! oh yes! yes. well and i had er er erm erm what's the name? ha! what do you call them,? a tummy upset? no! skin! oh, not erm shingles? shingles, i had a touch oh! of shingles. gosh! mm. and i said to him, he said what's the matter? and i told him, i said i've got shingles so i said well i got them he said and red round the stomach. ha, ha, ha, he said! i thought to myself, not so much of the ha, ha, ha! that's what he's li , er, wasn't a way to tell nobody was it? no, it wasn't. you see, that's another one. he didn't feel it did he? no, he didn't feel, absolutely no! stanley! no, that's not i thought to myself, who's this then? that's something i don't sa , not so matter that i could have told him! yes. that isn't a way to get through to people! no it isn't! no it's not. cos after all, we don't go private but we're paying! tha abs and i've payed for years and years for myself and four other people besides! mm. mm. no, some yes. of them get too snooty in a way. yes , they get, they're a bit less committed. i think the and, as you say with , well if he can go fishing and shooting, i don't know about that, they take priority! yes. yes, that's true. mhm. there's another very nice one there, he's the latest to have come erm . what in oh and he's just at framlingham? yes. and he's very young, he's i , i met him twice, when i was with people who were dying yes. and erm in fact, yes, but both of just had died and we sent for the doctor and it's aha. it was he who came and erm he was absolutely marvellous! i thought his manner was just right. makes all the difference doesn't it? oh yes! it does make a lot of i mean difference, yes a person like that can help another person to get well can't they? they can! they can. i mean,th there is something to be said for the manner towards you isn't there? ooh yes! yes. yes! that's true. i mean, when you look forward to seeing the doctor and one thing and another, and saying, have a conversation with them, that's a different story innit? that's true. and buck you up a bit. oh absolutely! that's something you absolutely! yes! if you think to yourself well if i can have a a quarter of an hour's chat with him, that'd be worth something. that's right. that's true. yes. i don't know why some of them get like that, well of course they shouldn't be doctors any how. and tha tha th th a doctor should have a nice personality! he should. i think in some cases, stanley, not only in the me , medical profession the more people are paid the less committed they seem to be to the job! yes, they do, they get independent! yes. they begin to feel that the job is there so that they can earn a living, rather than that they are doing the job itself! that's right , yes. yes. mm. th th er theirselves, they take priority not the patient! that's what i feel. yes. yes. i'm sorry about it because you know, how i feel about the medical profession and the nursing yes. profession. yes. ye , i mean i'm passionately keen! but erm i i think some of them let us down a bit. mm. yes. well there you are, i don't know whether it's wrong. course, they drop onto you any old time if they come but if they can't oh yes, if they want to come it doesn't matter if it's convenient to you or not does it ! not a bit of it! not a bit of it! oh no that's true. not a bit of it. that's true. well i mean after all they want er an appointment! yes. but you don't get no appointment! that's right, you don't. oh no! you see that's true. you take second place, definitely! yes. i'm sorry well it is true with some i mean, after all of them. you're, we're their customers! ah, that's right! that's their living innit? that's right. withou , they need er er anyone like ourselves, well, er er they'd have nothing to do! that's right. absolutely! and of course they're not so hard pressed as people are in these big cities! oh no! you know, they have a nicer time of it here altogether don't they? oh undoubtedly! undoubtedly! yes. they do. because, i mean, there you are, look, i mean for argument's sake, now , well they have e e every tuesday off or some monday or tuesday off don't he? mhm. he does. the same as that doctor used to come down and er oh yes! for him. mm. he was quite a nice fellow! mm. so far. yes, he's in debenham now. debenham, yes. mm. he lived on the green didn't he,? he did. yes. yes. do he live at debenham now? er, i think he does live at debenham. yes. he , yeah. i know he operates from there anyway. yeah. right. mm. yes. but then i mean come and saw me once, you see, when i wasn't there like that and he he tested from top to bottom, he said well ar ar after we sit and talked, and like he said well i better give you the once over, i said th er, certainly. and so he he tested and such like and he shook his head and he said well i don't know, i can't find anything wrong with you. no. and he said you're a better man than i am! really? yeah. aha. yes. and that's what said, and that's what that's what the hospital said! yes! remember? yes! and that is what er doctor said! yes. and ! yes. i've had four doctors tell me i'm a better man than them! well you wouldn't be ninety five if you were weakling would you stanley? no i don't suppose so. i don't suppose so. poor old doctor , he said you'll never wear your heart out. really? he said, whereas an ordinary man live till they're seventy you'll live till you're ninety! fancy! he knew, you see. see an yes. and and when er erm come over here the last time er, i i told him a a that he say, doctor , you see, told what he said, he is a clever old boy weren't he? yes. well he was. said that! said that, yes, yes. yes. aha. and they don't often speak like that of one another. no, they don't often refer to one another do they? no they don't, that's right. you see it's not thought to be the thing that's right. to do. that's right. ah! yes. oh he was a, he was a lovely man, wasn't he, doctor ? oh aye, i liked him, yeah. george liked him. did he? yes, yes, quite good. yes. yes, well of course they yes, he ought used to be, he was in scotland he wasn't bro , brought george . did he? oh yes, yes yes. yes. oh he was a real gentleman. yes , no problem like that. wonderful! well george got on with a lot of people like that but of course, he was a mason you see. oh, was he? he is that, but that's why he kept them he used to go down there with him, he got a big photograph of captain like that er, in his room here and so on. aha. well a man of nearly seventy years! is that so? yeah. my god! they had they had a few minutes silence for him when he died down framlingham. did they? yes, they did they? because er er er len a mason you see. is he? yes. and he drives in london er er er for meeting! does he really? they're very keen aren't they? yes! aha. yes, david some what's-a-name, er er said to me, have you ever thought about? i said i'm past that my dear! i'm past that . noel's not keen on them, he's been asked to become a mason sometimes yes, right. but he just, it's not, somehow it's hi , not his sort of thing. no well erm, i did ask, old chris spoke to me once in the park and then there's and things like that, cos a certain amount of secrecy in the , things like that and erm i i sort of turned it down and he even er er er well while and and len that said stanley did you ever think about joining the masons? well i said i'm too old for that now. mhm. mm. well you've so they had plenty to do to fill your time without belonging to well yes, after all's that sort of thing. said and done, mm, after all's said and done course i well i said there's good, bad, and indifferent everything cos i know some masons who are blinking great rogues, you know! mm. mm. yes! mm. old george used to be an old he was always keen to be executor for anybody you know. really? oh yes, and he could get executor, he was executor for one poor old lady old mrs used to live on the causeway er er er, the first little house you know where the th th , er you're coming this way on the causeway there's the elms, ain't they? that's right. and then on, at the back, there's a little cottage near the start there she used to live in that little cottage. oh yes! well old jack er, he di used to do the post round and he lived in the next cottage mm. they were two thick people. and the old lady when he was out like that, before and he used to go to framlingham carrying the bags and such like, and then deliver, come back poor old boy! from the he had a little shop not much, you know just a few things and such like, in those days. mhm. well, she used to sort of keep shop for him, she was deaf as a post! really? yeah, she was deaf as a po ! but however, she us , poor old soul, she did her best well jackie's mother used to go see her mhm. and of course when old jack died er, jack he left things to her you see oh yes. and that, which is natural. that was the time when there was a first portable radios come out oh! yes. er a phillips i think, one, one of those portable ones, that was rather unique. and there was a draw tickets for it and old jack won it!. old jack had won it! well, old was doing the the executorship for them because he poked his nose into everything! mhm. he used to live up at the dial. and poor old sarah said, well how much did she owe him you see? well he said he'd take the radio. oh good gracious! so he took the radio instead of, part payment you see, that was the first time. well then, cos he was doing executor for poor old soul poor old and er ivy used to go and see her pretty frequently, she said do come and see me mrs ? cos she got a little bit lonely. mm. but of course,th , i'd been living at the haven then, next to the butcher's shop. go and see her. so one day she said to her mrs , you haven't got a car have you? ivy said no we haven't, she said you will have one day. really? mhm. if anything happened to me. really? aha. judge, old was executor he went there one day and he got her to sign her will goodness! goodness! in favour of him! oh well that's awful stanley! that's a mason! yes, oh that's awful! mm. when ivy went he took clerk with them down at as a witness. when ivy went to see her she said oh mrs mr came to see me yesterday afternoon he brought another gentleman with him, a nice gentleman so i she said i think they were taking the census, they got me to sign a paper. oh dear! oh! and she'd signed her own will! oh! dear oh dear! and so when she died, he swept the deck! oh, that is dreadful! that's a mason! mm. mm. that's dreadful! yeah, that's a mason! mm. now, there's another one. old mrs old lady who was in framlingham, the dentist? no, i don't reme , no, i don't remember well in any case that name. she, she come from walthamstow. and then when her ah yeah. her husband died she'd picked out a bit of land all this and i borrowed this and one thing and another, so well they never found a penny! mhm. if we hadn't got the money to pay for cash on delivery i never want it! no. i done without! mhm. well we kept on like that and er er people like that we were packing up wholesale so erm i've lost myself a little bit now. no, you were talking about er about your cousin mr . oh yes, that's yes. right! yes, i was talking about he used to come over here a lot. mm. come over here and spent his silver wedding just to come here and his golden wedding! mhm. he loved to come here take a slog and go down the meadows. oh yes! that was his type. aha. he he he er loved that! mhm. and he loved a horse better than he would a rolls royce! really? yes mm mm. he was that type of person. yes. well i knew someone in and i thought to myself i, perhaps he might lend me a hand? i did touch them one time you see but of course there was nothing doing he wan me! some years afterwards walking down here after he'd been his for his silver wedding, golden wedding and so on er, coming down that dri drift down from the back he looked at me he said i don't know boy! i got a nice bit of money and such like i don't know who to leave it to. i said, well i don't want it . i'd got on my feet you see yes, that's right. yes. mhm. that was good. he never forgot that! is that so? on two occasions he , repeated me that like that. mm mm. he used to come over here. he went off and told his gardener, wilfred he said stanley won't have any. that was a surprise to him! mm. good on you! but i hadn't got much but i'd got on my feet. that's right, and you didn't need anybody else's! and i thought to myself, keep it boy! yes. yes. i told him . yes. yes. but otherwise said i could have it, he would of left that to me. mhm. mhm. cos he always over here! yes. always over here. yes. but that was the biggest shock he ever had! that you didn't want it. that was. and mhm. thought to myself, yes in a sense i could of done with that so far but i thought, no, i'll stick up and yes your independence stand on my own legs! so i told means a lot. him. ha. i told him. yes. and he yes. and wilfred told me himself when i went up there! really? aha. yes , he told me what said to him. yes. it all comes round. oh yes! and it's done you no harm it always comes round! has it stanley? pardon? it's done you no harm to stand on your own feet has it? no, it hasn't! no. no, it no. hasn't. no. that's the way. if only people would be a bit more like that sometimes today. what i wa , what i want to get i've saved up an ,an an an an earned it and yes. lily and i like that and we bought the self and we felt independent. that's right. and i've always was a little bit independent. yes. oh it's the best way to be stanley. yes! it's the best way to be. aha. and a fellow said to me about two ye , two to three years ago i expect it was two telegraph people up that pole out an just outside of my gate and he's still there and i walk along the gate and he turned round to me he say you're a lucky man! i said what do you mean,yo , me a lucky man? well he said, living in a nice place like this. you call it luck? i said, when i earned a pound i spent nineteen and sixpence, not a guinea like some of you! right . and he never said no more. that's right. no. ah, they caught them. that's right. two people come now doing the water, the the stop cap and one fellow looked across coo he said a big , i said i'll have a run a over the left i said, now you wouldn't would you? cos i don't mind, i lo i thi , i'm not afraid of work. no. no. jolly good! they're the sort of people you get. that's right! absolutely! yes. i i don't know, by the way, there ar , your gate is open and there is a er, red van out there. i opened it. they do, oh! th , oh for me did you? yes. ah, that's sweet of you! so when i go you'd like me to shut it probably would you? well i i if you don't mind? if not i can shut it. oh no! well it doesn't take me a minute. i just wondered whether it was because the erm men with the red van at the gate there oh no no the are doing something here. no,no! cos i they're working are they? i knew you were coming and so i went and opened the gate. ah, so you did. that's sweet of you! i thought that's kind! stanley i do not you know erm yeah? pardon? that take all sorts to make a world you know. oh yes , indeed it does! oh it yep. does! and we've got them too, stanley! we've got them! a lot of people i think we've got all sorts! now like this. well george come the other day, now he's a working fellow! mm. he's got a little sense! mm. he earned a lot of money and he save it, he then bought a british car. mm, yes. he paid for it! mm. that's the sor he say, nobody need go short today! that's true. mm. other people what do they do? they take the money they go and buy videos, they buy records, they go and bu ba for fo football and all si mhm. they spend the money in the wrong direction! there's no return! no. that's right stanley. and then they it's say they're short! yes. that's what you've been saying all the time this sort of bank lending's been going on haven't you? yes! mm. yes! it's madness really! ooh yes! and then mhm. th a th th i mean th , all these repossessed houses they're lived far beyond their end zone! yes , they do. they're ordinary working people, they wanna be independent gentlemen! that's right. and the banks and building societies have encouraged them! they have, i'm afraid, they have! pushed the money onto them! and now of course they're paying the price too because course! they're in a mess! it's their own fault! absolutely! as you make your bed you lie on it! that's right. that's as simple as that! after all said and done, people live it is really. far beyond their income and when they get the money they spend it in the wrong direction that's right, because they haven't haven't they? had to work so hard for it perhaps, you see. no! they've borrowed you see it instead. you see go to a football match, or buying some er electrical appliance appeal to them far more than paying the rent! yes, that's right. but a lot of people they don't pay the rent, no, ah ra , the tax payers have to make that up! that's true in many cases that's true. they've got swelled heads, people have! yes , they have stanley. it's very foolish! i wonder if anybody would know that what happened here ah er er two or three year ago was a up till re recently they know very well that couldn't last! couldn't last, could it? couldn't last! i know, it wasn't reality. went and borrowed an eighty thousand pound and bought a house that's right. mhm. well, he had to scrape to pay the rent at all! then, on the other hand he had to go short indoors, well then when the i er th th ,th er the interest went up, cos he ! they don't work out how much they're paying for their money no, they don't! do they? no. they go to silly people like it is really! that! is really. and the first thing they do th they go to the wo er er bo the boss of the firm where they work for and want more money! that's right. they can't manage. we couldn't do that! what do you mhm. think we are! yes . they, and and they they've they've on the ba ba had their unions run the blessed country! well they did. certainly, they did. i sa and they will again, stanley! i said if we get the wrong people in. that jackie will tell you the same, i told her mother anything from thirty to forty years ago i said, that don't matter some toss what political power they get in power you'll find the unions will run the country yes. the way they're going on! yes. they demand things! yes. if, for argument's sake, they want fifty pound, they demand sixty! that's right. that's right. and they know they'll get something. that's right. well mhm. all that money that they keep demanding from the er th wa th wa the firms and such like that ought to have been ploughed back into the firm! that's right. that's right stanley. if they robbed the firm, they're robbing themselves! yes, and then they are. anthony said years ago, when the rail ma men went on strike why do it? you'll only bring misery and distress on your own country! absolutely! and that's as true today! yes. it is! but they can't see it! all of them around they kill the goose that laid the golden egg. well that's the trouble, they do! yes. yes, but then they do. these firms are gonna pack up! exactly! exactly, and then they lose the lot then don't they? there's only one thought for th sa for them and that's for theirse i got erm patsy coming in for a bite of lunch oh yes. erm because we didn't see her last week. yes. well we and we better get the sweeper sometimes then. oh you need to stanley won't you? because er i can't bear to think of you without this room with that lovely fire in. well, there you are. there's always some, look at my birds! oh yes, the birds are there still aren't they? here's some fat for them. that's your medicine stanley. just a minute. come on sweetheart. aren't they marvellous! they come straight away don't they? yeah. they're wonderful! that's your medicine there your eggs there. the instructions on them i suppose? sorry? the instructions on it are oh they? oh, it says, stanley well you can read it i'm sure. please repeat the water test when you've finished the tablets. please what? repeat the water test oh yeah. when you've finished the tablets. repeat? yes. ah! that's yes. the word i wanted. after you've taken those. righto! i expect they'll tell you how many to take. i sho , i suppose so. can i just check? i'm sure they will. yes, you look , you look at them. i'm sure they will stanley. you look at them. whoops! yes, that one's two tablets twice a day and that's for the water test. i see. alright? so i gotta take them both? what er are they for? bu , you take that to , er two tablets twice a day that's it. two tablets twice a day. so that's probably yes, well what are these? morning and evening. they are perhaps new ones, i don't know. are they? i dunno, i'll take them but yes. two twice a day. yes. and then this is for your water test. right. and er, what when those are finished. when those are finished? yes. that's just to put the water in to put your urine in you see. let me see it before, ooh i mustn't open it because it'll be ste oh no! it'll be sterile, you see. it is, it's ooh he want, he want that for a test? he wants that,yo , he wants you to put some water in that for a test, some of your water in that that's right. fine. for a test after i've used them? after you've used those. that's alright. and stanley, we don't open that in the meantime because no, no! it's sterile. yes. and so it must be for your test, you see? yes , quite. okay? so after i've finished those lot twice a day yes. well they're the two twice a day. two twice a day. yes. well that's four a day. it is. then er, put some urine in there yes. and let him have it. that's right! that's it. well i can send it down with anybody. that's right. oh yes, well er er, yes you can because you need to send it down when it's fresh. oh yes! er, so if nobody's going down give me a ring and i'll come and get it. thank you. alright? thank you. so erm yes. your fat, what i might get the old lady to go down for me. well er, only if she's going. if she's going. yes. that's right. if she's going. there's the fat stanley. how much do you want? it's one twenty nine please. one twenty did you say? er, one twenty nine stanley. please. twenty if you've got a ten, i've got a one. i got, i've got one . twenty five ah. six, seven eight, nine. good! that's clever. that's right. you almost always have change don't you? pardon? almost always have the right change. yes. yes. try to. yes. try to. try to. there. thank you very much. you're very welcome stanley. and i'll see you again next week, but if you need anything in the meantime give me a ring will you? i will, thank you very much. do that dear. thank you. and, try to keep warm and keep out of this wind. yes, that's right. bye bye dear! that's right. and i'll shut the gate. alright. okay, so you tha , you don't need to come out at all. there we are. oh the wind is still cold! it's keen! it's keen, indeed! yes it is. yes. right. bye bye then stanley! bye bye! bye bye! erm i think it can't be bad for you because you do quite a lot of the same exercise as you'd do in proper aerobics yes. but you're in the water the whole time. i don't even know what proper aerobics are anyhow. oh you just keep moving the whole time. running on the spot and waving your arms about just seem to keep moving all the time without even running on the spot. yeah well this is, this is you know it's very difficult to run in the water i know it is. cos it keeps getting round your feet and sort of making you drop over. yeah. and i suppose developing the muscles that keep you from dropping over it's pro can't be, can't be a bad thing. i suppose it can't, no. i and then you do other exercises like lying on your back, putting your feet your from the knees downwards over the edge of the pool and then trying to do sit ups. good heavens! i'm too old for any of that. but noel, isn't exercise against resistance is supposed to have some special benefit isn't it? well i'm doing that all the time, i'm doing it with you my love. oh come off it. erm i don't know, i, i, i, i i just feel that this is that sort of exercise where er ooh sorry. it only lasts an hour, it's not going to do any harm no i'm sure it isn't. it's erm a good thing to be doing. because swimming's i think something that does do harm is jogging. yeah well well yes that's a beast. i, i did a little jog this morning with the dogs cos it was too cold to walk. oh ah yes. and i've got another one this afternoon i think. have you ever been in the sauna at er woodbridge? no i haven't. er er no i haven't either. er i one, went into one at iceland that was it was lovely. i've been in a sauna in london i belong to a health club there. mm. i used to play squash. mm. that's a violent one isn't it, squash? yes. i, i can't think that really violent exercise is a good thing generally is it? something that's more measured oh i don't think i don't think it hurts when you're young, i think when you're older you should only do it if you've done warming up first. i think so too probably, and you've been used to it. that let's us off, isn't it nice? i think the warming up exercises in themselves are a good thing though mm. even if you don't do anything after mm. after warming up. the class i go to on monday evenings erm we do warming up exercises and i'd be quite happy if they just stayed warming up exercises for the whole hour. yes. have you got someone properly qualified taking them? yes, she's very good. mm. i went to a sauna in iceland mm? and then was able to straight, in, in the hotel it was yes. straight up in the lift to my bedroom and it was lovely you know, yeah in the hot, in the swimming pa pool mm. or through the shower then in the swimming pool then back again and when i'd finished with it i went straight upstairs to my room and i went to sleep straight away, it was lovely. i was waiting for him to say he went out and rolled in the snow because that's the proper end isn't it? mm and you should beat yourself with twigs as well. i'm not i don't know really about that. oh you should definitely do that, i mean that borders on the nasty i think. they had a there was a sort of electric burner in the place as a whole mm. where they kept on throwing on water to water with some erm sort of fir smelling in it. oh yes, it made steam. mm. fine mm. that's it. i should apologize for canned soup, but i spent so long talking to stanley this morning mm? you know sometimes you can just tell he wants you to talk to him, and erm so i er couldn't make a proper soup, sorry, but this is i think good actually i think. yes, which is it? is it heinz? heinz tomato i i made some stock the other day mhm. and i put some of it in the freezer yes, ideal. in erm sort of bowls. what did you use for your stock? some bones. and? oh some onions and carrot? carrot, yes. celery? that gives a lovely flavour. i don't think i had any celery, i had, i had put in whatever i had in the house and sort of various herbs and spices and things. did you put the bones in the stock before or after the dogs had had them? during? during the dogs went into it instead. think what a luscious stock the dogs would make. no they wouldn't. mhm. erm all that hair. yuk. erm no what happened was that he gave me some bones that were far too big for the dogs. so i made stock out of those. where they gorgeous marrow bones? that yes. oh yes, they make wonderful stock don't they? mm. well normally when he gives marrow bones i ask him to chop them up a bit smaller mm. but he gave them to me practically mm. he's an obliging chap isn't he? mm. i always feel that when he's giving,, because he gives them to one, doesn't charge for any mm? er anything for the bones, one can hardly say erm give that another whack across the knuckle because he wouldn't the big knuckle has so much locked inside he wouldn't mind. it doesn't it? i do. do you? yes. i should really. he wouldn't mind. i ought to have courage. he charges high enough prices for his other things. yes he, you're right, mhm. erm when you do your stock do you first of all roast the bone? no but that is erm er a counsel of perfection or something isn't it? it it's a method anyway. mm. erm do you? no. well i didn't because i just couldn't be bothered to put the oven on to get as hot as that for such short period of time. what in fact does it do? oh i should think it erm melts out the marrow and does all sorts of quite good things for it. it probably gives it a good colour too. it gives it colour erm i'm sure because of the, of the fact that they're roasted. there's one thing that erm i sometimes do to give it colour, is once i've taken off the outside skin of the onion, the very outside mm? i put the next one in. mm? does that, that gives it colour does it? i read that somewhere, mm. mm. but roasting them, i wouldn't like to get them with any sort of burnt taste. well i don't think it would give a burnt taste but i think, i think it probably could do quite a lot of good for it. mm. er i just read it in er i was reading delia. mm, yes. oh yes she's good. and she tells you to do that does she? yes. it's the matter of the moment really, you just fling them into a roasting tin don't you and put it in the oven? and that's alright if you've got a rayburn but otherwise you have to start yes, start from scratch. heating it up, mm. now when i was away staying with my cousins mm. he is a g p in high wycombe and he's a fundholder. oh good, tell me about it. well he's also been on hundreds of committees because they were sort of one of the early ones to be done mm. and they have a battery of sort of board members drawn from here there and everywhere, including a fair quantity of redundanted service people. oh. they had an s a s officer running, running them is that to get you ri to get rid of the patients he didn't want ? no, it was to get rid of the health service. he, he, he said that at one point this chap had used the phrase that well that they were going for controlled destabilization from the health service. controlled what? destabilization. oh. the s a s man was? mm. why? that's what the aim of the people doing it was. you mean the official government line? mm or that's what they er or maybe that was his interpretation of it anyway this was a phrase that came out in, in the actual meetings. and then he told me a hilarious story about the way in which the chairman of the committee, i'm not sure quite what particular branch in the world he'd come from but he was looking at the figures, i suppose it was an accountant looking at the, the figures saying now why is it that the amount spent on district nurses has gone up? so he was told petrol has gone up. he said yes but you now have your health centre and the district nurses work from there. so erm they all looked at him, you know, the district nurses so john said to this man what there are some of our patients who are housebound yes. and some of them as well as being housebound, maybe aren't very well and are bedbound mm and the district nurses visit them in their homes. he had to explain it to this man. good god. where did he fund this committee from one has to ask immediately. he's not given his committee it's wished on him. the local authority the local authority creates the committee. but i, i had no idea that he then had to be that, being given his own funding, he then had to be organized by a committee. oh that's outrageous. local council i think it must have been some sort of yeah. thing like that, i don't know. well it doesn't seem sensible, i thought it was the g ps getting control. i mean this is what's going to happen to the detriment of the health service right through yes. administration by people who don't know what it's all about. that's right. what has happened to a lot of these hospitals hasn't it? well it seems to be still going on. what do you make of this idea of building a new hospital at norwich with fewer beds? i can't understand it because if they've got fewer beds why don't they, they just hide a few of the beds they've got already? absolutely. mm why do they have to have a green field site and start again? is it because they're going to incorporate a lot of high tech treatments? i think so, yes. mm and, you see erm it is a fact that they need fewer hospital beds nowadays because mm. the, the hospital stays are dramatically shorter than they were. mm yes but we're coming up to a time when er the quantity of old people is going to be rather high than before because we're all healthier. mm. mm. they'll have something special for them like concentration camps. i know. th they've got those in ipswich already haven't they? that's what they've made the old anglesey road hospital into. is that so? mm something like that. i wonder how it really goes. i wonder i don't know. erm well it's oh this is disappointing because i thought that with g p who'll knows what he requires and what his patients require was going to have erm a pretty er erm well you can't leave a g p to spend the money like he likes, you've got to have a committee for it. you think about it. you, you know? ah! ah. yes anyway have you heard about how they do the costing? will was telling me about it, how how how they oh do tell me because i how they cost erm something like a tonsillectomy. mm. and how do they? well apparently they count the procedures that are involved in doing it mm? erm they have a price per procedure yes? and they tot it up. mm. but they haven't got it quantified to such a point where they can actually distinguish a tonsillectomy which might have a lot of procedures but actually takes about half a minute with er other things that are, you know, much much more complicated and the cost of tonsillectomies is unreasonably high compared with erm, you know, with yes. really? mm. they haven't, they haven't got the pricing right. and i can understand them not having the pricing right, i don't think they've spent long enough working out what the prices of things are. they've dearly gone on for years not knowing, let alone tonsillectomies, what yes, they didn't these wretched erm they didn't know transplants costs. they didn't know what they cost but equally being asked to budget against not knowing what things cost mm mm is er equally stupid. yes it is. because er er ya absol but then, but then the er the whole thing gets knocked for six anyway because of general unpredictableness of, of, of illness. well it does i suppose. it does. you can you can apply statistics to it a bit but it's very unlikely the statis st statistics and what really happens will always add up in fact. they, they've suddenly had a few outbreaks of polio haven't they? oh have they? mm. i didn't hear that. i say. mhm. yep. they've had the odd child who hasn't been erm whatnotted and some various ah! various men seem to have caught it from changing their nappies. yes! i did hear of that. i'm sorry i wasn't relating it to erm to polio. mm. erm well you know, you've only got to get maybe smallpox back again and that will knock all their predictions for six. erm they say they've wiped smallpox off the face of the earth. yes they do you see. that's the doubtful one isn't it, because it's gone. it's supposed to be completely gone. yeah but do they, do they inoculate children against it at all? no i don't think no i don't think we have smallpox inoculation er of, of children do we? don't know we i mean we used to because they say it's it's, it's gone completely. erm sorry love we need a fork for that. perhaps the meat fork from the shop would do nicely. no er er erm it's all in the cutting, of course it is very no that's pork and noel daren't touch it so i've got two slices so that you and i could have one. that's very nice, thank you. and noel will have the other. erm i haven't had any pork for ages. it's so new to them that they're bothering to cost it, but how did we go on in the older days? i'm trying to think. did we know anything about what our operations were costing? i can't remember. well if y you if if you go to a bupa hospital you go pa you pay a sort of erm, you know, related type of yes a figure that's been around that anyway, yes. mm? ya. but i don't know i'm just having that to start with i think . erm i do i don't, i mean i don't know how accurate it is or whether it's sort of, you know, a set of figures they decided to put on. it wouldn't relate to what it costs to keep to keep to keep their profits going. yes, that's right. well it probably does relate that's what it that'll be it. it probably does relate pretty well. i bet it doesn't relate to an actual operation in a general hospital because you've got so many people wanting their rake off in a private one surely? i mean haven't you? yes. yes. that erm yes their profit ya that's right. rather tired bit fed up with private medicine at the moment. oh because of richard? i'm convinced that richard you know richard er er ? mm? had he gone to a national health hospital mm. with the request to have that back thing done for him mhm. i'm convinced that at the age of seventy eight people do they would have said don't bother. yes i'm sure they would have done. ya. and er would have erm perceived that he wasn't greatly hampered by it, but once you've got a surgeon who is going to get a fat fee he did say to him are you sure you want this done mm. but richard was sure he wanted it done and nothing came between him and that intention. and you see he's, it's going to finish him. he's not going to get better. no. erm but did he tol tell you that the surgeon asked him if he really wanted it done? oh yes it's known that he did. mm? he said er you're sure because it was quite a thought, for a man his age. mm. but i think a surgeon in a national health would have said look here i do not recommend this. yeah but then the first thing he would have done would have been got up and gone off and got it done privately. that is the danger. he would. so er the end was i suppose always connectable. ya. if that's, if that's what private will do for you mm. mm. i mean, i think, i hadn't realized that they would make different decisions on medical grounds. mm they will, it's more permissive if you're in the private sector. i'm sure of that. it doesn't come so hea heavily loaded with advice against things. what, because it's all too good for the moneybags? yes it's, it's i suppose human nature to want to pursue your craft wherever you can. mm. but erm but it's been a very bad thing for him. yes. but you see they've had computers in hospitals now for years mm? and are, are employing and paying people to work them but they don't ever seem to come to any let's say reportable conclusion about the cost of operations. i think if we knew what those heart and lung transplants cost, people would be up in arms that the national health service is being expected to fund that. mm. well y they're a little bit like nuclear electricity in terms of erm the expensive end aren't they? mm. mm. yes i suppose that's so. i wish the government could really tellingly er do down these dreadful lies and scandal erm scaremongering things that the labour opposition is putting forward. i mean they don't honestly care two hoots about people, if they can talk about the dreadful state the, the care of old people is in and all the rest of it and that it's going to get worse, frightening old people. that's not caring for the community at all. that's just erm politicking isn't it? yes. i can think of nothing worse than kinnock coming into power. oh! imagine how people like erm erm helmut kohl and cook? not cook oh. because he's in his own party, i mean cook yes well he's a snidey little thing, i'm talking about the erm ambassadors and the politicians, the ministers who would be oh yes, oh lord yes. you know, opposing him. yes. they'd just, they'd just run over him absolutely, whilst he was grinning. one can't see him in an ambassadorial role at all can one? no. it may not come to it. but this recession is quite a problem. oh it must be. it's a worldwide thing though. mm. yes but the trouble about it is that the english are so insular that lots of them don't, don't realize it or won't believe it. no. that's true. they, they regard that as an excuse. mm. have some more chutney, it was given to us by our german daughter-in-law. oh so it will be perfect. did she make it herself? she did. goodness. it was our christmas present wasn't it? i forget what it was, was it her present? mm. well has it been nice not having to go to france? mm. except of having to go to london instead. mm i couldn't tell how many people would agree with you about that one that london could be at least a bit preferable to paris. well helen's a bit like you she, she sort of perks up when she starts to smell the petrol fumes mm! ya. and she said she had a lovely time. she went to an exhibition, she went for a browsing sort of shop. she said the shops were empty. mm. shopping is much more comfortable now. mm. i'd better go and try and do some some time. mm. there's a lovely suit in at the moment in the sale in what's that place called? ? near mhm. it's really lovely. smart, one could go to town or anywhere in it. mm. why is it you don't buy it then? well because it's darkish in colour and i'd rather promised myself that if i have anything new now it'll be of a brighter colour. oh well go and buy the thing before somebody else does, go up this afternoon. dearest i'm saying it's a dark colour. yes. yeah but you could wear it with, you could wear bright things with it. mm. shush, don't push me, i don't need pushing. no no really i, i, i've resolved, it's charcoal grey you see it sounds very smart enid. very smart. we're going to have princess diana. my size too. is it? mm. it's got your name written on it. mm. why don't you go up and buy the thing? no. i'll phone her and ask her if she's got it in red. you can pinch a bit more of my er like the telephone woman. mm? like the telephone woman. oh er isn't she oh isn't she super? i don't like the advertisements they're doing for the telephone now though. which are they? oh they have this silly man who picks up the telephone in a he's er got a chef's hat on and he says giovanni's and then it was, it turns out to be one of his old friends so he lapses into sort of glaswegian. oh no! i haven't heard that one. oh but maureen erm er what's she called? maureen lipman, yes lipman, lipman. is very good on those isn't she? mm. she's the right sort. erm the thing that i feel i couldn't go to see her in is erm hello joyce. yes, that joyce grenfell thing? mm. a bit of it was on the television. yes, i saw that bit and it wasn't good no. because sh joyce grenfell was such a lady, it came through. and and wh and er maureen lipman is much more earthy mm. and that came through and it was no good. if you've seen joyce grenfell you, you couldn't funny thing to put no. a jewess to to try to represent joyce grenfell anyhow isn't it? yes. yes in a way, except she well you could do, it could be done. did you feel that about her on television? well i felt, i just didn't know what it was but it lacked the sort of charm that it had before. mm. completely. almost thought when she, when it was when it was erm er mentioned in the first place that she was going to do it mhm. i almost thought ooh you know i'd love to write and say oh don't, don't. joyce grenfell was such a lady. you couldn't say that to her cos she didn't it would be insulting but in fact, that's the big difference. mm. talking of things like this, you know er some people have postcards with their name on in black, across the top oh yes they do. yes that's right, they do. mm. well er all sorts of funny people like have them like erm iris has, has them. oh does she? and does jane . yes. yes she has them mm. my aunt has them, my father used to have them. mm. and so i've always associated them with sort of erm, you know, what people had before all those sticky labels came mm yes. people who did things properly? mm. mm. well when i was in the london office one chap who is an east end jew made good, his name is ralph , erm suddenly gasped and said gosh isn't this wonderful? so i sort of was called to look at it, and i said oh yes, all the people i know who have got those are over seventy. and was it one of his own? no no, someone had sent it to him. somebody had sent to him. and he, he thought that it was such a touch of class about it. mm. mm. and i expect he's gone away to get them printed now oh probably. because i s i said, i said how funny . i said well they're just what people had before the sticky labels. yes. and he dragged out his sticky labels which, which had got blue stripes on them no? yes, i thought no that wasn't terribly elegant but anyway his blue labels had got, these little sticky labels had got blue stripes on them top and bottom. oh how funny. erm and so i guess he's gone away to get some made. mm and i said and of course to do it really properly, you also have envelopes so that if you want to you can stick, stick the card in an envelope that will yes. fit it. cos that's what we used to have. mm. oh yes it wouldn't go naked through the post would it? well you can yes you can't mm you know, you could use it for quick notes mm. to drop on people's doorsteps yes. or, or which is useful. yes. or if you just want to sort of signify a, a quick thank you to someone. mm yes. or a quick come yes i hadn't thought about that. mm mm they're they are very useful, i've often thought of having some made mm. because, in fact every time i get one from someone else i always think why haven't i gone and got some of those yet? i know why, because you're not seventy. that's right, give me another twenty years. we had those envelopes er and the cards for our concerts. well they were probably erm invitation to a concert. yeah but they were all fixed up to go into the same envelope sort of thing. mm. yes oh yes you can't , can't use them though. no. got too much detail of where we lived and erm you know that it was a concert. but but these you know, you had your telephone number and you know, just had a whole statement of everything about you. mm mm. and and all you needed was the brief message that you had to send. yes. and it saved you hav it saved you having to do the preliminary thing of saying dear whoever you are of course, that's right. that's right. which was sometimes quite a difficult thing to do. well on a personal card you're not supposed to put dear anybody are you so i know but that does make it difficult. no it made it very easy. you know, especially when perhaps you were having a mixed sort of meeting mm. wh i remember that when i was at home it was a mixed sort of meeting in which some of the people from the village were coming who you didn't really know but they had to be asked mm. mm. yes. well you i mean you, you could cover er cover the whole thing couldn't you? mm mm. without saying dear so and so. yes. mm. and without really having to sign it. you could just put your initial in the corner. of course. mm that's right it are they called gentle yes cards? something like that, yes . safe distance cards. i must go and get some made. indeed. oh gosh. have you used any of these erm things called post it? oh yes they, they use them a lot at work. th but they're useful? what are they? well er they're er like your autumn leaves that you used to leave on everybody's benches oh did i? erm but they've got a sticky bit on them oh i know, yes. and so you, you'd have stuck it on the bench you see erm and it comes off anything without making a mark on oh yes we've got a little pack of them in london i think on the, by the telephone. yes. that's right, some teeny weeny ones? yes. mm folly gave them to you? they they they used to call them my autumn leaves er erm patsy and more oh have some more an another piece of ham, do have some more ham or you're getting some nice cheese in a minute. oh cheese. are we having some cheese? mm. well i think i'll wait for some cheese mm. ye yes i used to leave notes i'm i'm tr i'm tr i'm trying not to overeat you see? yes. right. please yourself. i'm trying to avoid being noticed if i overeat. you're trying to, you're trying to avoid being starved all the time aren't you darling? you're allowed to have some water aren't you ? no no no no no it's difficult for you but he's trying to avoid being starved. will that plate do? it'll be fine. dish you out a larger one. no no it will be absolutely fine, thank you. okay. well help yourself, i can recommend cheese. well autumn leave is the best way out of, of of er communicating. if i were to turn to a man on a bench mm. and say to him so and so and so and so he'd always answer back and say i want to do it this way mhm. and er the time was wasted, but you give an autumn leaf a little note saying what it, what you, what you wanted done there wasn't much chance he could argue. yes i heard a very interesting conversation on the way down here in that programme just a minute oh you know the one i mean? i hate it but i'll tell you why in a minute. mm mm. go on. well i don't like it very much but it has this very interesting discussion as to whether a fax was cheaper or more expensive than the telephone mm? and the biggest pro for a fax that i can think of is that you can send the message and that's that, there's no risk of it dribbling on into, into doubt mm as it would on the telephone, yes. yes. how right. mm. so i thought that was quite interesting to think mm and they can't argue with a fax. think about. i hate that programme because i like i tend to come and listen to the content of what they're saying mm. and they're only saying it for the sake of keeping going. yes and then er so it's never, it's never worth serious attention is it? well just occasionally it is. sometimes you do get something interesting. and and and and then and then they get interrupted and you wish, you know, you wish they hadn't. that's it, you see that's full of frustration yes it's for me i don't like it, i, i prefer things like the news quiz mm. or even that one about that game with mornington crescent in it. mornington crescent? yes. i've heard that phrase used but i don't know what it's for. oh well it's, it's where they say say a sequence of underground station names or or locations oh in london in, in a sort of clever way that makes it sound as though there's some terrific good reasoning for it oh. and they just say it totally randomly and the last one just the first pers person who says mornington crescent is the winner but they've made a great big sort of fiction as to how why, when it is suitable to say mornington crescent you have to come to it yes. i, yes i see. th there's no logic to it at all but they play it on. how extraordinary, i've not heard that one. mhm. it's a programme where they also sing the songs of one tune wh to another tune. oh you mean the programme where they do that? mm. erm well that's not that's not my music is it? no. no. erm that's erm can't remember what it's called. mm it's jazz with humphrey littleton. oh. i, i'm, i'm not with you on that one because erm i'm sure i'm vaguely at the back of my mind i think i know what it is, i have heard of it i mean mm. or heard it mm. but i can't bring it to mind, it won't come to the front as it were. well i can't remember what it's called. erm yes apart from my music i can't think of one. i heard a very amusing thing on the radio this morning mm? came in half way through it, at least half way erm but it was so obviously the voice of erm freud, clement freud mm. talking and he was telling about a visit he had paid to china for a whole week mm. and how he'd seen prison and er they'd said they hadn't any prisons but he found one and erm hospitals and all that sort of thing and at the end of the week's visit erm one of the very high ups, whom he named and i've forgotten the name of him, i think i'll just use that, thank you erm sent for h he, he was brought before him as it were and the man said to him are there any questions er at the end of your week that you want to ask and he said well perhaps there is one he said erm winston churchill was here erm a month or two, a few months ago mm. and he also, he like me stayed in the and he named the hotel in mm. peking he said can you tell me why his room was larger than mine mm. and his room had three windows erm and i, mine only had two mm. he said in spite of the fact that i've been in parliament for longer than he has, which surprised me cos i wouldn't have thought so this is the young winston churchill of course so the chinese man said to him erm oh well the reason for that was that he had a famous grandfather and so clement freud said, not to him but now on this programme this morning, that's the first time i've ever been de-grandfathered that was rather nice wasn't it? presumably his grandfather was sigmund freud was it? yes. mm. the chinese didn't know. no i shouldn't think the chinese have got much time for that sort of approach to life. i don't think they have either. i don't think they'd have been impressed even if he'd told them no. erm did you see that th they're, they're going to look for some sort of gene called the churchill factor? no. well they want to find out why it is that someone who smoked so much and drank so much mm! had to live so long. yes. well it's obvious. it's the same sort of factor that allows anybody who smokes a lot to not get cancer and not get bronchitis and live, also live a long time. there are plenty of them. well that's true. i it's just a question of, you know, something in your make-up that is inoculating you and other people have a weakness. well that's right. other people go down with it. you can't really i should think find a gene surely that's there must be something though enid. mm there must be. his father was a very weak man wasn't he? yes. his mother was a character but she was not nice. not nice but she had a strong character. mm. but his this reminds me mm? might i just say this darling cos i've just remembered, i'll forget senile you see? erm we have a video of the last programme of the churchill series mm? erm which a friend in london very kindly made for us because we were out with her, her mother mm. and couldn't see it mm. and erm joan's video has gone wrong in some way really? yes, she doesn't know how to work it to begin with but she was working she was working on that, of course we don't know a thing about it, erm and the make, the erm the handyman chap came along and took a part away, it was faulty mm. so we can't see it. do you want to come and see it on mine? i was going, i'm getting round to that you see aren't i? mhm. erm we feel rather badly about not returning it to this person who made it for us mm? because it's now a fortnight since we had it i think mm. well come and see it on mine. may we do that? mm, sure. but when, that's not going to disturb you? don't know. erm let's think. tomorrow morning? no. i'm taking, i'm going to london tomorrow afternoon, i afternoon. i, no i've only just thought of it, i'd take it with me if, if we'd seen it. mm. i've got to go out this evening. yes. well tomorrow, what happens to you tomorrow? is it your lazy day when you yes. mm well we won't see it tom we'll keep it another week keep it another week i'll get my diary. i'll get my diary, can't talk without a diary. okay. we can't do it next saturday because erm we've got two people, a scotsman married to a chinese yes. coming to spend saturday. mm. so that's a dead day for next week. and might be able to do it before the weekend perhaps yeah think so, i'm just when does noel get back from london? erm hoping monday evening. he's going to see mr . he has a little bit of a scratchiness in one of his eyes mm? erm and phoned up and sort of semi made an appointment, not exactly mhm. erm because mr was abroad and the girl said well i mean come in on monday, when he'll be back mm. and he may be able to see you then. yeah. so come monday morning, sunday night in fact, noel said gosh i can this is, this seems to have gone light. we've got some ointment from the doctor which didn't work last time he put it out mm. and seems to have worked this time. so he said i can't go along and bother a busy man when it's feeling much better. mm. so erm he didn't go mm. but he got a phone call on the tuesday from mr 's secretary to say oh mr would like to see you anyway because er he feels it may have erm it was a letter, i'm sorry, which came mm. in case it has any bearing on any difficulty you might have in the future so he's to go down so he's got an appointment? mm monday morning. and then he's going to call at sotherby's. do you know sotherby's are the most dilettante people you've ever come across, they really are. mm. with the exception of the one erm section leader that he deals with normally. at the beginning of this week a girl phoned up and said that erm the chap he normally deals with is away mm. but there's an organ is sussex they want him to look at and erm so he said well send me a photograph er they've got a photograph of it you see mm. send the photograph and that gives me an idea whether it's worth going to look at it at all. that i think was about tuesday. mhm. it never came. this is what they do, they phone up asking they could have they could have even faxed it. mm well we haven't got a fax. oh no. but the thing is, what they do tend to do is, they suddenly find themselves in a panic because they've behaved like this about it and the person at the other end is shouting when are you coming to see this organ mm. i was talking about how dilatory s er sotherby's are. oh. yes but i know the thing dear no well of course they're not, they're not in a businesslike business are they? no not really, no. and i wonder if it seems to be that they prefer you come out of the upper drawer than come up with your brilliant a levels or whatever. they do, yes. mm. exactly that. mm. they are erm a very, you know one, one of the last bastions where those sort of people can find a refuge. yes. i suppose so. i find them you know,l like, like the duke of kent's daughter. mm. does she work there? she works in art galleries or, or some art gallery or some art gallery. yeah. mm. and the man she's marrying is an art gallery. so he is. that's right. so he is. there has to be space for these people though somehow i always feel that they cream it all the same. mm i think they do cream it, yes. oh that's well du during next week is what we think noel. pardon? during next week erm i'm just trying to think, i've got very heavy days on monday and tuesday so wednesday's a possibility then in that case. er let's shall, can we leave it open? mhm, certainly. and then we'll arrange it with you, mm? yes. erm i don't know whether i think post rather erm er i see i'm not going to london after erm after this week ooh. oh you're going to be making some of your special coffee are you love? i am indeed. ooh er how's your barn proceeding? don't know, it doesn't seem to be doing anything and what the was that during the week when was in residence one night the dogs barked and he went out to see what was happening and there was a young man who worked in it this was in the pitch dark, was up there taking some of his stuff away. oh. oh. so i wonder. has he run out of cash? well, i wouldn't be surprised. why would he need to do it in the dark? well if for instance it's approaching receivership oh oh oh you'd want to sort of, you know mm. oh yes. get your stuff and you'd want it not to be obvious that you'd got your stuff. oh i see, yes. but that's, that's only a guess though i don't know. you mean the young man who actually owns it or the man who's employed working on it? well i don't know who exactly owns it yes. but the man who has been doing the work there who said he owned it oh i know, oh. but the, the lady who was erm what's her name daughter, she used to live in the erm erm live in the terraced house erm what jo ? mrs what? you mean? no er the people before them. the ? what? the ? yes, ann 's daughter mhm. who's got the farm up at mhm. and there's a there's a farm for sale opposite there, you never saw such a wreck in all your life. oh it is a wreck. yes. yes it really is. yes. i think the vogue is dying isn't it? yes. erm they're being much stricter about what you can do to them. erm. and how you do it perhaps. and how you do it and everything, yes. i think that erm across the road from me he's just mucked around. yes. he hasn't done things in the sort of, you know, the preferred way. that was the sign from the beginning wasn't it? yes. and he hasn't had building inspections at the right sorts of times. ah. so i think he's going to find himself in a lot of trouble. that's good. mm. well he didn't, he did deserve it didn't he, really? yep. but he paid dearly for it in the first place didn't he? i think it's such a shame that he's gone and put that wretched wirenetting fence so close to the road i agree. across the road from me. that what? wirenetting fence across the road. yes it is wretched. cos it's so close to the road, it doesn't give me any swinging round room well actually if he's on my side of the road. if he's having problems mm? you may be able to get that rectified mayn't you? ya. and say yes better arrange for the coal lorr lorry to back in to it one day. ya i was i've been thinking of trying to have a big delivery of something. i mean i would do you er have ? i don't have any coal delivered unfortunately. oh. i've go i've got some coal in the coal shed and it, you know,i it sort of lasts me. oh. i never seem to run out. because if you had old er what's his name? don . don , 's man er if you explained the bother mhm. er he would back his with a little encouragement from me he'd back his lorry right into it and flatten it for you. darling he's a very nice man. i know he is, that's why he'd do it. well unfortunately if, if i did have a delivery of coal it would come in through the other entrance. oh that needn't prevent you from backing in er backing into it when he turns round. no it's been, it's been a tough week this last week. oh dear. i'm sorry. i feel very sorry for people who have to work for their living now, i really do. mm. yes. oh we've got something else have we? i thought yes we've got a little bit of israel haven't you? a bit of israel? yes. we had a box of oranges sent to us from israel oh i see direct to me mm. friends of ours there. actually it's george 's son. mhm. my wife's hello ian, oh i was hoping that you'd come and see us. yes. that's wonderful. to see you. i'm just getting, will you tea? yes, i'd love one. thank you. right i'll just get that. well how are things going? yes business okay mm no no? oh dear dear dear not at all, no. is old alright? just about yes yes. that must be worrying, a lot of people feel like that don't they? yes. no it's, it's been a very bad eighteen months er oh dear. cos the, the business that i was what? the business i was a director of yes? er last year went into receivership oh lord. in january ooh. now does that have a er i, i know you lose the income but does it, does it penalize you at all? yes it does. oh dear. yes. yeah we've had er the d t i investigating oh lord. cos it was quite a big company. oh. but erm it just er hopefully because yeah but really they're just trying to investigate to make sure that we didn't act fraudulently in any way. oh yes. oh good. i mean i don't suppose which, which we didn't. you know it was the it was the downturn that erm yes, ooh you know that started nineteen nineteen ninety one. what was the business what er did you do? in, in advertising. advertising oh yes. an advertising agency. oh. yeah. but about a third of the top agencies in our sector all went bust in good god. in the last eighteen months. cos living up here privately in retirement one doesn't realize these things. i mean er unemployment in er white collar management area is, is, is very marked now. is it? yeah it's yes. yes it's really affect affected our, our businesses. there's so many areas that have contracted so much. yes and i it's a, it's long erm it is, yes. process yes. affects everything. but, you know, things are going okay. but you, you managing just, just to hold on just about yes. yeah. cos as you know ben's in hong kong yes?yes. he's suddenly swapping from the police to er security in a big bank. oh fascinating. oh. erm i, i suppose it'll be a couple of years before he does that but well, yes. yes. cos he signed up for five, five years didn't he? he signed up for three years with an option mm to do another two. oh i see, yes. and i think he's going to work out the other two and then go on to this forget the name of it at the moment, this bank mm. and er but he doesn't want to come back to england. no i was sorry i missed him when he came over last year. last year, yes. i just had a quick phonecall with him. oh he did speak to you? yes. yes that's right mm yes. yes see that time went like lightning. yes. such a shame. edmund is still in his job. aha. he still hasn't got naturalization but he seems to be fairly erm fairly secure. he's a journalist of course. yes. is he confident that he'll get the naturalization? oh yes, eventually he will. right. yes. w will that be this year or does it take much longer? you can never tell really? never tell, a girl we know went over at the same time as he did got it this year. really? but er it's just the luck of the draw, it all depends upon the temper of the particular official that's handling it i think. yes. i'll give you a funny article he wrote before you go. oh i'd like to see that. but er i'm just trying to think now er ben er the trouble with it is, edmund can't leave the country whilst he's in a job until he gets naturalization because he's got to get a work permit and an entry permit and everything all the way through right. and again er with the present state of unemployment in america it's unlikely he would get it. it's very difficult. yes. but he, he managed to get his extension to his permit because he had these english connections and the paper he was on reckoned that he was very valuable to them and so they good. they held him. good. well i'm sure he's are your wife and family well? yes. they're happy with you are they? yes they are, yes. i wouldn't er bestow them er on you even for a short visit though. oh don't be silly. the er the s the small one is er oh you've got two have you? yes he's a real handful. is he? oh dear dear yes. dear dear. yeah he's er he's nearly two and it's a er they're trying times. i've had it five times. yes. we're expecting another one in june. are you really? you that'll be that'll be the third. but i had five. every yes. one i said was the last but it . oh i see certainly feel that er we must be mad. we must be mad. and you're living in chiswick? yes, yes. although we'll have to sell that house. would you? what because of the financial position? yes. oh dear oh dear so er we'll have to wait we're, we're er we've put an offer in, in on a house in weybridge oh yes? in surrey. erm not particularly because we, we wanted to go to weybridge but er cos travelling's expensive isn't it? it is actually. fifteen hundred pounds for twenty five minutes' journey to waterloo. but it's got a huge garden which with the two boys i think will be marvellous. oh yes. it's very unusual for a even in a, a suburban er yes. area. huge garden. i know weybridge slightly. do you? oh. mm. erm but will you make, be able to make much profit on the on your old chiswick house to be able to buy the weybridge one, will that be an economic move? erm we save quite a lot er which is what we're trying to do, yes. oh good, yes. erm and it's er it's a good area for schools it is a good area for schools, mm. a a and er it's you know a reasonable community as a matter of fact i knew an old couple that ran a, had a nursery school there, a big one and a very successful one. yes i imagine it, it would be. for a number of years they did have but er it's a shame about le leaving hounslow where chiswick is yes. because they provide nursery places. and yes. so thomas who's three is at school. oh yes. whereas surrey doesn't until they're five. oh dear. so we'll have to put them even if they don't you can sometimes find that if you get behind the scenes that there is a way of doing it. yes. yes. got to spin a hard luck story, something of that sort. yeah. yes. but erm we're very lucky where we are. the state schools are very good. are they, in chiswick? they do seem very good. very pleased with them. but erm it's difficult living in london now. the erm you really are aware, i don't know if you get up to london much? do occasionally, yes. yes but the erm the atmosphere oh i hate london, it's awful. chris christmas day i had a real chest erm and mouth and everything. i can quite believe it. and it's erm it's so oppressive and we really worry about it with the children. yes well i can see that, mm. i er i very much dislike london. we've got, still got a little house there yes. and er so it gets sort of at the organ works? yes. yeah. it's a bolt hole mhm. but i very seldom use it. yes. how, how's the er organ business going? they're up to their eyes in work. plenty of really? of work. mm. good. lot of it export. good. ian do you have milk in your tea? just milk, that'll be just lovely. yes right. yes. no sugar? no thank you. oh good lad. oh yes john s came back from japan really? they, he built a large organ university of or yes, yes. and er he was back there ten days ago for some or other to see another customer and when he came, only got back into the country on monday or tuesday aha. beginning of this week and then today i've had a letter from an architect friend in america suggesting he gets in touch with an architect in for another job yes, yes. i'm taking it down to him tomorrow. but he's he's got work in there to come. he's going to build a new organ for chelmsford cathedral. oh that's good a new one for st john's college cambridge, he's really quite busy. good. good well i'm pleased that er business is strong. oh yes he's alright. yes. well ian and how are you doing? oh not too bad. keeping fit really? anyway. yes. you're keeping fit? that's good. he said he didn't bring the children because he thought that we were too old for them. i think we're, i'm too old for my children, well the smallest one. how lovely. harry is a a nightmare. he's a real is he? handful. yes. he's a handful is he? oh dear. i'm just going to pour you a right. i w i was letting it thank you. er brew a little bit just to yes that's fine for you. you're looking very fit anyway. oh that's kind of you. well we keep busy don't we darling? ya. and erm we just love it here of course mm. so we've got nothing to grumble about at all really. ian was saying how good. he's moving out of london t to weybridge or hoping to. hoping to. you are? yes. oh are you? yeah. that'll be nice. i, i think so. yes. it's not it's not out of choice entirely because er the business that i was has, has gone very very badly over the last eighteen months do you mean that type of business or that particular firm? both. oh. yeah. but the particular firm i was a director of went into receivership oh dear. beginning of last year, it was about oh that's a year ago now and erm so er i mean fortunately it was bought er as a going concern good. erm but everyone's financial position er suffered as a result. yes. mm. so i'm not as, on as good a contract. you're not? no. no. but them i'm lucky to have have a job really. well i mean these were the kind of jobs that weren't replaceable weren't they really? well in a slump. yes that's it. i mean there's so little business around that erm that's right. so it was, it was somewhat a good thing that somebody was prepared to buy it. yeah. now i'll pull this forward a bit erm ian sorry is this your seat? and no it isn't, no no no, not at all. now i'm going to leave those there yes. alright and you'll just dive in to those won't you? oh lovely thank you. that's the thing. i'm going to sit quite near to you because i can hear better when i do. right. so. erm so this means that the house that you were so er happy with and have you continued to be happy with it? yes. erm in er forgotten in chiswick. in chiswick yes. that's right. aha. so you've got to leave that now? yes. yes. mm but well this is life when you're young. i i it is really. yeah i mean we we're fatalistic about it, it's i, i think it is only a, a phase. yes. things will change. yes. i'm sure we've learnt er i've learnt er business er er secures as a result of it yes. erm so positive about it. yes. it's the only way to be really isn't it? well yeah yes. have you got a house ready for you in erm weybridge? well we're buying it from an ol elderly chap mm. erm he's been in it twenty years and er he's had it on the market for some time. it m probably not as long as a year but it's quite a while mm. er and he's accepted our offer good. but he doesn't seem actually willing to move out oh er which i can understand really. you, one gets very fond of a house really. i think he's he's split up with his wife oh. although he must be sixty odd erm and it's obviously a very difficult time for him. yes. erm so he's keeping us in limbo really yes. which is a bit infuriating cos er alison's due our third in my! at the end of june oh. so er we have to be decided either way yes. by then. yes. oh we're quite happy to rent for a while. i was going to say that's the alternative i suppose yes, yes to, yes. yes and you might even have to do this er for an interim period or something yes until he decides can you get yes. places to rent alright? yes you can actually, yes. yes. mm yes, do help yourself ian. erm so where would he be meaning to go if he does let you he wants to move down to a smaller house in weybridge. yes. er which we're told shouldn't be difficult to find. er no no. so erm, you know, hopefully that will be the case. mm. but erm i don't think he er realizes how difficult it is no. to set up no. a move and that really he's quite fortunate to have a buyer somewhere within the price he wanted. indeed. cos we've all you know, we've all not got as much for our houses as we want no that's very true. that's true. mm. oh well let's hope that he will. i mean the thing is at the age of sixty he has no conception of what it's like to be your age at this period. mm. well, you know, he hasn't bought a hou sold a house within the last ten years mhm mm which we've done a number of times yes. and it's not a pleasant it's a very stressful business. i'm sure i'm sure it is. i don't know how we escaped it so much but we have you see. because we lived on the business, that was mm. er a foregone conclusion and we never sought to move from there until he retired did we? mm. no. so one doesn't know er exactly what it's like to do it. no. no. mm. gosh. and tell us about the children, how old are they? harry is erm he'll be two in june mhm. then thomas will be four in august. oh i see, so they're nice spaces. yes there'll be two years between all of them. yes. yes. so which alison feels is erm er you know the right sort of time ideal really. for her yes. which is obviously important. yes. and erm they haven't had thomas doesn't remember not having harry around that's nice. whereas we've got friends who've got older children well a little bit there's, yeah, three or four years between mm. and they get er old enough to be er quite er happy that they're on you know,c centre of attention exactly. which er thomas hasn't. it sours the relationship a bit. yeah it does a bit. yes aha. mm. ah well i i is this going to be, if it's a boy is this going to be a benjamin? i don't know actually. could be. you've got two boys mhm. and so the last of the tribe. oh the last of the tribe. yes. well i think i think you know what i mean. mm. erm that's what we did finally in desperation with ben wasn't it? you decided to he was five, number five . erm it would be nice to have a little girl then now wouldn't it mm really? i'd, it's funny because i always wanted a girl mm. but now i, i wouldn't know, i don't feel i'd know what to do mm well this is just how ruth was. yes got no choice. mm. no that's right. this is what ruth er felt cos she had two boys mm. but erm and she thought i shan't know how to deal with a girl at all mhm. which is a funny thing for a woman to think isn't it? well alison feels the same, yes does she? yes, yes she does. yeah. it is odd isn't it? but and then she had oh, oh she adores her, and of course she said it's wonderful, i don't have to keep struggling to get boys out of their trousers. yes. this of course is passing now because the girl's yes. four isn't she noel? four and really? gosh she'll be five in april and that's the youngest one. oh. and er, oh here they are mm. and er she said it was lovely to be able to put her in dresses. mm. that's the first day at school oh lovely. for catherine. mhm. she, they all go to the same school. oh lovely. that's nice isn't it? children, yes it's great. mm. so ruth i think as far as, barring accidents, will regard that as being her final right. they live in wells oh do they? in somerset. mm. yes. oh lovely. i don't know that area but and they no they're very happy there . so that's them. and i gather john's doing well. yes john is doing well, he's got three children too. he's ooh yes and his are lots the other way round aha. erm a boy first and then two girls. well he's got three too. nice kids. yes. mm yes nice kids. mm. and of course margaret's not erm inclined for marriage, she loves her job. no, yeah. and erm i think she'll be she'll, she'll probably stay single unless mhm she meets some nice old man. yeah. wh and where's margaret working? she's now at erm one of the girls public day school trust schools in sydenham. oh. sydenham high school. mm. sydenham high school for girls. her dream really is to be teaching at city of london school mm. and erm i'm ho we're hoping that she might mm. get a job there. but she loves her work doesn't she noel? very secure. and she and your mother seems keeping quite well. yes, yes she is. she had a bad er flu over christmas when she was due to come and she's still got a very bad chest mm. oh i'm sorry to hear that, oh. but er that's the bit that hangs on always yes. isn't it? mm. yes i saw her, i went up to i went to keep fit with her oh you did? good. and er good. although i didn't last tuesday, i did the tuesday before and she seemed mhm to be getting back on her feet alright. mm. ah she says she's much better mm. and what about hamish? mhm. doing fine? mm. finding it quite difficult to get work but erm he was over at christmas for a short time. oh yes. i don't think and i saw him we saw him did we? no. well he wasn't here very long no. but er they've got, they've se set up their own teaching business oh, have they? and again because of the recession over there le learning english is, is one of the things that, you know, gets put, put back on the it's not a priority. priority yes. mm. mm. so erm but they se they seem to be working out okay. mm. they've taken somebody else on so things can't be that bad have they? yeah. oh good. mhm. er alec is a re another real handful. is he? he's a year younger than thomas but he was the same height mm. and er sort of wild curly hair and oh really? yes. real wild isn't that funny? but lovely, lovely boy yeah. yes, yes but, but lively. yes. mm. very much so. is that the only child they have at the present time? yes. yes. mhm. mm. yeah. mm. all they can cope with i think. and of course he'll be bilingual. well he is. mm. he's quite slow as a result, which is quite common apparently is it? with er children who are brought up with both languages. mm. mm. erm bec they don't speak either very well to start off with. and how old is he did you say? he's two and a half oh well it's early. it's such an advantage to them later on i think. oh well a absolutely yes. mm. er he because toni, hamish's wife mm is half french so is she? i'm, i'm sure he'll her pick up get three. trilingual. yes. cos they spend quite a lot of time, they spend their holidays in france. yes. so i'm sure that confuses him even more at this stage. mm. course it does. yeah. yes but in the end it does seem to work. i was always a bit doubtful about it mm. erm er you know, whether it could vu confuse children or not but in fact it doesn't seem to with john's children does it? no no. his they use his wife is german. yes. yes. mhm. and they use both languages quite freely. mm. in fact she gets rather uptight because erm during the year at school when they're speaking english most of the time yes. which is very natural, and so she ships them off to germany to the relatives to put them straight. aye that's quite right i think because it is a good, good thing. that's right. well it is. i wo i won't thanks. will you have another one? no thank you. well help yourself then if you want one. mm. but yes. of course the, the, the slump is also, not the slump, the recession is also er operative in italy is it? yes. it's everywhere. ian why do people it's worldwide. well make such a fuss about it erm i mean politically? well, yes well i suppose it's everybody's having to cope with it. coming up to an election time and of course. everyone er they're bound to use it. bound to use anything they can mm. er any angle they can get, get a grip of. yes. but er yes, no it is th i mean they had a lot of business from banks and areas like that yes. which of course have lost a lot of money in the last year or two. that's right of course. they have, they will be drawing back on most things. yeah. but in fact they're the people aren't they who need bilingual people on the staff? yes they are. they're much, much better. i mean y er you know, although they're in recession i, i think there's you know in this country mm. we we're owned now, our company, by a french agency group and erm none of our directors are, are learning french. isn't it extraordinary. and yet you've got people who run restaurants, small businesses of that sort erm just general businessmen who want, you know, know they have to speak english. mm. and they're just doing it as a matter of course over there. yes. they all seem to have more drive than our people, what's the matter with us? it's certainly in the, in that area, it's the cosmopolitan business mm. attitude er and also it's complacency because we can yes. you can get away with it. you know all the meetings that's right. are held in english. mm. mm. and er the french speak very good english mm. erm so there's, there's not enough incentive there. no. and i have to say that er i don't. but i, i, i i ou really i, i know i'll have to be thrown into the situation of having to do it you'd better get on with it and do it now. yes. but of course the beauty of it is you've done it at school haven't you? yes. and once you've done it at school, it comes back with a bit of an effort quite quickly. yeah i've got a reasonable vocabulary yes. yes. but never really spoken it at all. i mean we never did any french trips. didn't you? was useless for languages when i was there. was it? yes absolutely hopeless. we never did any trips of that nature at all actually. and what was the teaching system? er had they by the time you were still at school come on to that new erm er system where you speak a lot more? no. no. you've done it out of grammar books? yes. mm. yes. i remember mm. it was, yeah vocabulary tests and that sort of thing which mm. mm. you know er well it's er it's a middle ages approach to well actually the one thing you can say about it is, it is a good grounding for what you now go on and do mm. because erm wherever you go now for refresher lessons, they will use the modern method. yeah. and that's, that will build on that foundation. yes. you'll be astonished how quickly it'll come back. mm mm. you really will. hopefully. mm. yes all we had when i was at school were l l yards of verbs and yards of nouns, we never knew how to put the two lots together. no. that's true. yeah. mm. the people who had the imagination or ability to do it where the ones that could speak the languages, the ones that didn't yes it was made no connection at all. mm. because i knew a lot of nouns and a lot of verbs, i could get by when i went to algeria in mm. nineteen forty but it was i envied those who could really speak. yeah. mm. but erm if you see some officer floundering for the word for a cabbage or something of that sort i could provide the word and he provided the conversation. yes. mm. yes. well actually you're going to a centre aren't you er in where there will be evening classes and that sort of opportunity? yes. i think probably it's, it's it's well erm served for for mm i would imagine it's quite well led. mm. ya. and you'll have no problem, yes. mm. aha. i'll have to give up my art classes then which is art? haven't been doing them recently but when i've been able to get a, er an evening away that's what i mm mm. spend my time doing over the past few years. yes but will it rule it out altogether do you think if you've got to do the french? well a alison goes out for one evening so that means i have to get back early for that evening mm. and then if i, i go out for another one, that means two evening evenings back yes. leaving the office at five thirty on the dot and of course yes. i, i can't do that more than twice a week. no. no i see. your work itself is going to take more time than that. well yes. is that just at first or is it regularly? no i mean it's, it's always been the case. mm. mm. ya. mm. it's tough really. it is tough. it's very erratic the work as well, it's it's yes, is it? very, you know, stop start yes. is it still advertising? yes. yes. yeah. you must be pretty good at that by now. well i've got quite a lot of experience i mean i've yes you have. i've done it since i was, well it's getting on for fifteen years now. it isn't? yeah, thirteen years in, in mm. the same area mm. i've not really moved around a lot no. no. in the actual function. no. just sort of progressed up the ladder i suppose yes. mhm. so, yes yes. oh well, you can only make the best of the thing you've got and that's the best thing to do rather than mm. unless you're forced to switch er horses, you know in, in mid stream. yeah. well i i i always say that er it always comes a surprise that i was good at anything. and i always think back to the er the time i think edmund and i were sitting in the back garden here and deciding that we'd go off and join the paratroopers really? because we weren't going to get any o levels. oh! and that was about all we were good for . i'm sorry. how funny. but in fact you did get your o levels didn't you? so i remember well i got a handful yes i remember mm. and edmund got a b a. yeah. ah but wait a minute, not until after that was it? yes. he got his o levels but that was it. yes. decided he'd had enough and i suppose you had too. mm well did you stay on for as? yes i did. mm. but again i you know i always had the ability to er to know, to scrape by yes. or knowing what the minimum required was and er pitching myself at just over that point i think. yes. which i suppose is some sort of ability well it's a it's a, in a way that's quite true. mm. yes it saves the er er the use of excess energy when you don't need to doesn't it? yes. that's right. ah. edmund was lucky because he got this chance to do a university you see in mm. in er new hampshire wasn't it? yes. erm well that's when er ben and i saw him, when he was doing it that's right, you did. doing that, yes. you did. yeah. but i'd love to see him again. oh yes. i'd love to get a trip out there. it would be wonderful wouldn't it? yes. he'd so love to see people and of course at the moment mm. he daren't make trips, or at least it wouldn't be wise to make trips yet i know, yes i know because he's waiting for his yes, naturalization. shame really. yes. that's right. can i pour you another cup of tea ian? i'm fine actually, thank you. we've got photographs, recent ones, to show you anyway. oh good. and we saw him in september october didn't we? yes yes end of september beginning of october good. and stayed they had a barn just a little way from the house, you could see it but it right. wasn't very striking it was no it was, it was just grey and, and, and yes. quite unobtrusive. well they've had a marvellous sort of conversion of that done mm. for guests and erm because they had a beautiful house anyway didn't they? oh a beautiful house mm. yes and they're still in the same house. they they're yes. very fond of it. and erm so now when we go they're awfully sweet and they bring edmund at the same time oh right. and we all three, noel and edmund and i, live in this barn. oh that's lovely. ideal. which is marvellous. for breakfast. george did that, really, so that when his grandchildren came he hadn't got them under his feet. no, it's a good idea. and he, well he's, he was wealthy enough to do exactly as he wanted. yes. yeah. it sounds ideal. it's lovely. yeah. it's very lovely. they're such nice people. yeah. and of course they i didn't meet him. oh didn't you? no i only met erm ellie ellie. very briefly as well. well it was summer, wasn't it? yes er no it was april. oh. april and the son and had they gone away then? the son was there. dan. dan was around and the other, the, the younger one. oh john. i c i don't remember his name. er john was the youngest. yes i think it was him. mike wouldn't be, i think he was w er getting on a bit, oh i don't know dan lived in town mike was at university. yes er and the, the son, i think he was at college himself that's right. and he was sort of back and forwards but he was based that's right. in the house. yes. that was john. yes. mike was down at er providence. he was in university. they're all married, those boys now. are they? yes. dan is good. married. without any children i remember dan but i oh yes dan's a dear boy. yes. and er we're very fond of them all. mm. and erm of course er it's just like second home to edmund. they are so good to him. yes. i must say it's, it must be good to have somebody like that er absolutely. o over there cos it, it must be must have felt quite isolated yes. oh he would if he hadn't got them yes. certainly. yes. i mean it's lovely because he er he adores to get into does edmund and that means that he and george go about this lovely big er grounds that they've yes. got and edmund does lots of grass cutting and er tree cutting and all manner of things with mm. george. they've got a great com a great relationship going. good. good. and of course he spends christmas. let me see, dan is the same age as john isn't he? as ben, no edmund isn't he? erm i think he's a bit older. he's older. oh. yes he's younger than john cos edmund and i are the same age oh. are you thirty f thirty four. four now? yes. that's right. well i should think dan might be couple of years older? not as much as that. oh. well before they were married. really? yes. gosh. yes dan must be i would have thought it's only months probably, but it might be quite a few months. mm. mm i don't think it's more because we soon had, started having our children didn't we? mm. erm ooh wait a minute we're saying, we're saying than edmund aren't we? yes mm. of course, i'm stupid. he was the eldest of their children. dan was? dan was. yes. oh right. yes. ya. so i'm v i'm a bit vague about it, you may well be right and it's two years mm. because of course we've got older children than edmund. that would line him up with edmund though wouldn't it? no yes no no no, a couple of years you're quite right. mm? couple of years older i should think. yeah. that's it. but erm oh they're a great family they really are but i think george and j joy's having edmund because although dan lives in the town er what's it called, new haven? yes. erm obviously he's got his own business, he's got a shop now, an outfitter's shop. yes did he have it that time? he had something like that. he was so vague though. i mean i know he was delightfully vague oh he's an absolutely but i was never really sure what he was doing . no er yes i i thought he had a shop, maybe yes that's er he worked in a shop probably at that time. yes i think so yes. that's it, he worked in that er fancy goods shop that's right. nine years ago visitors shop. that we went. sorry? i think it was nine years ago. was it? yes. yes. it doesn't seem possible really does it? the year before i married. eighty five. good heavens. was it really? is that no, no eighty five that no eighty three, that's right, yes, nine years. was it? mm. yes. oh well that was a great thing for you really wasn't it? you must have enjoyed it. oh it was a marvellous trip. splendid. was it? absolutely yeah. mm. really very good. mm. i enjoyed travelling with ben a lot. yes. he's a very good er companion. yes he was a good travelling companion i should yes. imagine. yes. yes. he of course is ben's been all over the world since then well yes. i know. i'm most envious of him i am. and do you sometimes get any word from him? very rarely. mm well so do we. rarely. yes. i must write to him myself actually. have you got his latest address? i haven't, no. i'd better give it to you because he has right. changed it. i did bring my address book with me. i'll go and i'll go and get it for you and do make yourself another tea oh righto i'll just, excuse me a minute i'm yes of course you sit down, that's alright. right. oh yes. oh i see. the day before he left. mm. is this on the sort of or something? ah it's pretty, yes it's that sort of place have you been to hong kong ? i haven't been to hong kong to see ben mhm. because, but i did go to hong kong when i went to china. oh you went to china, that's right, yeah. that's right for three weeks and erm then i wasn't impressed by it, i was much more interested in china. yes. but i would, in a way, love to go whilst he's there but he er he really feels that it wouldn't be a place that would suit pa and me on holiday. mm. so i've heard that before. what love? other people it's a noisy place. it isn't it isn't nice but for the young well enid's been there i haven't. mm. it's nice for the young i think. as far as i've been is the airport. mm. now can you see edmund's cos he changed you see it's a terrible erm well i'll go and get it, i've got it written down there in my place. well it's here darling but it's just a question of finding it, it's right. just go through, you'll find it certainly. is it that's it, is it ? that's it. oh that's it, that's it. well that's lovely. i'm going to get one of those articles that ben wr edmund wrote. oh yes, yes he'll enjoy that. i've got no excuse now. no. who's going to sit down? that's right sit there. i expect si , don't know how len's gotta sit down or whether he's gotta stand. i'm gonna stand. are you happier standing? yes it's his that's alright . his back. belinda if we can start with you more or less erm i heard the other day that you're half thinking that you might like to be a nurse? yeah, that's it. that's right. mhm. can you speak up a bit. speak up a bit belinda! what erm what sort of nurse are you thinking about? nursery nurse, looking after young children in nurseries and stuff like that. mhm. i can imagine you doing that. can you? aha. mhm. i can. yes. i'm going, for work experience i'm going to saxted ministry up there hopefully to see what it's like looking after children you know, like a nursery and everything. so hopefully i can get the job there from that two weeks, and then that would be wonderful! what it's like. yeah. i didn't yes. know there was one at saxted yeah, it's called rainbow. i think, isn't it? yeah. oh that's right, yes. and is that for children who are living there or just go in for the day? just go in for the day till their parents go to work i think. mhm, oh good! i think it's something like that, yeah. aha. and what qualifications mus must you have for that? erm, i don't really know at the moment, i gotta look up and see what it needs, like and things to do and study, things like that. mhm. mm. mhm. good! so probably gcse right. mhm. it's all to do with gcse coursework and see how we're getting on during the two weeks and we get experience for us when we leave school and go to work. that's a good idea! yeah. you get a feeling for it then. yeah. i think it's one of the best jobs for a girl that there are don't you? well i think so, i think erm as long as they can go and work with children and then they've got the time when they can leave off and come, but it's having the whole time, well then they've children all their life haven't they? yes. this is the only thing if you go sort of privately you know? yes. you can fe start of with children and you are finishing up with children! well that well tha wo would tha would you not think that's a good thing? erm i mean, for instance, if you do the the very high grade norlands nanny training they go on till they're grey and experienced it all like me ! haven't they? well, you know i don't they? well yeah. would you feel you'd not want to do it all that time then belinda? i don't really know actually, it's always can't yet. the time, no. that's true. i don't know but,that far ahead, you know. just a good experience for her for time, you know. indeed! but i shouldn't want her do it all her life! you wouldn't? no. it's a very well paid job! oh yes, i know! what about that, but i meant she gotta think about, she'll want children of own and then she'll have chi yes. aren't you? aye liddy? oh yes! but then don't you think that it's a, it's a marvellous training for her? that's what i say, it's a training, nice yes. training for them, then say after about three or four year if they wanna get married, they got children and they got some good experience. absolutely! mm. it's invaluable. yes. that can't be the kind of thing you're thinking of then? what do you want, what do you have er, in mind? i'd like to go into the farmer business. would you? yeah, erm mixed farm with animals and sort of, cereal crops, stuff like that. good! well you're in the right place for that. yeah. would you got to an agricultural college? yeah, i'm hoping to go ockleigh whe why am i, get older. sort of erm working on a farm for two days then going to the college erm that, so i do it like that. mm. it's a good place,ockleigh yeah. splendid! and then, would you like to work in this area or would you like to go elsewhere? i don't know. i hadn't really thought about it, it's erm it all depends on what farm i'm going on cos i've or erm cows an , cows and bullocks, you know. mm. mm. and you won't have worked on a farm at all yet, will you? no. not yet. though, go and sometimes and he's got bullocks so that's where i go, got it from. and dave . oh that's good! they got ponies haven't they yeah and mm mm. these two erm, sort of mucking about . you think you'd quite like to be with animals would you? yeah. aha. and i, i wouldn't mind doing some sort of a rou , some amount of work. yeah, what i mean, all round agricultural work and on your ? yeah. is that it? well mm. that's great! we've been gardening this morning. i was looking at the garden as i came in, i thought i might have, even though i didn't know the number yeah. i'd have known that was your yeah. garden. because of all the trimmings. well it's not very good this year aren't they? no, they're not very good at all! well bearing in mind in fact , we're disappointed with it cos usually we have vegetables out of our own garden all the year round but they didn't do very well this year did they? no. it's why's that? the worst garden had for years! it's a dry summer time. really! last summer time, i mean ah yes! last year i was cutting cauliflowers weighing nearly five and seven pound, but this year i shan't have one weight two pound! is that because of the dry winter? yeah, dry is dry autumn too, you see. yes. yeah. yes. they didn't really get a hold did they? they didn't get a hold, didn't get a start. really? aha. see an a , i wouldn't like other people keep using the water cos they very careful on using the water yes. but if i'd have give it, had to give them some water they'd have done much better but i, like everybody else we kept hoping it were gonna rain,but ! that's right. yeah. and it never did at the right no. time. no. no, i see. no, i mean we have to tops this time of year, we ain't got any in this year. we ain't bothered to put them did you? no er, cos they'd have dry up but i didn't put none in. no. you'll but miss them. ooh well we have missed them! yeah. that's like the sprouts, they didn't do as well this year no. either did they? no one ate the did they? no. nor the cauliflow no. no. mm! so erm well he you took the sprouts up yesterday didn't you? and i put the other in. yeah. they'd got erm but they weren't no good those ones dad. no, nope! i mean the a normal week would go on a garden and get free vegetables every day off our garden couldn't we, normal time, normal, every time? every day of the year! gosh! you know the mm mm. that's wonderful! because yeah. there's nothing like them is there? oh there isn't, no no! aha. well, we'll probably pick some of the spinach today and then yeah. he's gotta dig that up and make the garden. yes. do you like gardening too, ben? ooh he love it! oh isn't that great! because very often you, a father can be very keen on gardening and getting the children to help him is just the last thing. yeah ! well he's done ever since he was a little old boy, just yeah. start walk, walking. well have you? got , we got some photographs yeah. here when he, where he started digging, he weren't very old! no. yeah, erm when i started digging up i was smaller than the fork, the fork was, yes! really? and they didn't buy you one the right size! no. way you do it at granny's. yeah erm when i got a little older, i put these little forks in and when cos miss , ain't seen any of my family's have you? no, i haven't. that's my older sister. died last august. oh that's nice! that's my older sister yes. yes. yes. that that little boy is o but is he? and do they live near? fairly near? er arborough no. no! arborough arborough arborough man , is it ? yeah,arb , erm what's her name of the farm, the innit? yeah. farm. farm,arborough arborough is that in lincolnshire? no. no. er, norfolk. norfolk. oh , norfolk! er mm. just the other side of halsam between halsam and . oh is it? mm. yes. ah well yeah. that's and the nice! that's nice! and tha , and that's her husband look. oh yes, that's right. yes. and this was their golden wedding? yes, yes it was last last august. it was last august. isn't that lovely! yeah. and that's the farm house, in fact? mm? yes. is that farm yes. house? that's the farm yes. house, yes. they've yes. been there ooh well forty year i think. really? mm. that's lovely! mm. they've had the his father lovely! had a farm at and they sold that and moved to that one. really? yeah. and that's len's that's brothers on there. that's all my the wedding we went to, was it two years ago now? oh yeah. not long. not quite two years ago was it? no. two years that's all my brothers. ooh, look at that! he is the image! mm. and that's my yes. next to me that is. that's right. and then yeah. the girls are on there aren't they? yeah, that's my sister the upper oh yes! sister. yes. yes. and that's len's mother. she's now ninety four! she's still alive is she? yeah. ninety four! splendid! yeah. has sh yeah sh , only the last two years she's gone a bit blind or otherwise she could do anything couldn't she? yeah. really? yeah. well we saw her sunday didn't we? we went over sunday and see her. she looks very smart yeah. there doesn't she? that's that's len's brother, the one who on that book graph. oh yes, yes. erm oh where's another one? they old grace is sitting and that's len. behind there yeah. that's right. that's another sister behind there. ah yes i see her. so that's just one, two, three sisters and mm! then and three brothers? yeah. and i got a sister, i got a sister in america three brother , no four brothers innit, you got? four brothers, yes. four brothers? yes. so you were eight altogether? yeah , that's right, yes. yes but the oldest brother is dead now isn't he? oh yeah oldest brother's dead, yes he is he? yes he got and that's where belinda's her, she's now got a little baby boy oh, that's nice! three months old? yeah. or two months old? he's about eight weeks old. eight weeks? yeah. oh they're just beginning to be i always feel by the time they're eight weeks yes. they're just beginning to be here really. yes, that's yeah. right. they're frightening until they're eight weeks old aren't they? yeah. but of course this will be lovely for you! yeah. mhm. you might even be allowed to bath her or him? him. him. michael. michael. mightn't you? mhm. yeah. that will be nice! hopefully. whereabouts is this? my erm she lives at martlesham. oh that oh where where that she lives. oh sorry! martlesham martlesham village. martlesham. martlesham. mhm. that was down at the the little wooden . that's widdlesdale church. widdesdale oh i see! and that's the first marriage they had in there for twenty five years weren't it? yep! no! yeah. is that so? yes. yeah. bonny girl isn't she? you don't know who that is do you? oh i do! that's a lovely picture of you belinda isn't it? mm mm. lovely! i always say that these two children, they're lovely to meet because erm oh that's nice too! we got one of those. because they always erm answer, whenever i, we meet in the village shop, we always have a chat don't we? yeah we do. that's lovely! mm mm, what beautiful pictures! is that kiss or a whisper? that's a kiss. it was a kiss. the first one was so quick they had to get him to do it again! because he's looking a little bit this way isn't he? yeah. that's lo , oh they're lovely aren't they! when you erm they're very nice! that's but the they, they're jolly expensive aren't they? cor! you know, they're a lovely lot well they are! of pictures, and you couldn't tell really which ones they are nowadays, that's true! to have but you've got to just go for what you can erm well afford to. well yes, yes! well yeah it's i only used to a little bit of well i mean if you had twenty or thirty that's only the same only a little bit different, that's all that's right. because many are the same but you don't want all that many do you no. really? that's true. no it's do you do any photography at school? i haven't. you can do but only in my year. can you? yeah, fourth year and upwards. in art and design at lunchtimes and that and yes , it's one of those er, things you do in so , in sort of spare time at yeah. school? yeah. yeah. mm, yes. in the extra. that's good because then you'll be able to do your own. is that er that's erm the idea, sort of bullock farming and that oh! i hope. my word! they're all er, that's sort of the marshes. really? mm. oh yes, all that, and look at that level land and then i would yeah but down on the marshes, near, near the wavey oh yes! well you know when they had all hooha about erm dig our gravel. gravel pit down there, there's a lot in the that's just behind there. oh is it? and when they had all those trees cut down erm ah! that farmer did all those trees. oh yes! and we had to move all them, there were a lot of hooha about it in the paper about what, a year ago? no, it ain't a year ago. i don't think it's quite a year ago, about the trees. really? it was over a year ago about the gravel. did he do it without permission? yes he just yeah. uprooted all these old trees and things ah! that was when i was these are nice! yeah, i was five then ah yes! mm. that's mm! ooh these are lovely aren't they? and that er he rides his ponies. ah yes. aha. and you, you actually rode along in that did you? yeah. well i think they're old seaside carts, seem to be yep! rigged up. and he changed them so that you get, so they're having one course in and yeah, he had two horses. he had two, two ponies in there. oh i see, yes. three. three ponies in there. really? that's lovely! and one of those ponies, we rescued it didn't we? yeah , it's blackie. blackie. really? what happened? er well but she didn't get she got ill treated and that and he didn't the erm boy didn't feed him properly so it's all sort of skin and bone so we went and brought his pony and erm, we sort of fed it up and got it going again. really? yeah. so it's still a bit jumpy around us. and erm well of course, that's the thing if they're badly treated mm. erm that's her own little pony look. yeah, a miniature. a miniature. had a miniature one. oh really? that's the one whe , in the, in the kitchen it bit my mother's backside one day she thought that was a dog! really? and it's a tubby little thing isn't yeah. it? ah yeah, well that wasn't quite so big as that! no, no! that's when it was younger. yeah . she kept saying, get out the way nellie! get out the way nellie! the way nellie! and that wasn't nellie and it wasn't. that was jimmy! oh it was funny but this is the farm house we were talking about yes. is it? yeah. yeah. looks lovely! no that's where my mother and sister live that one. oh i see. but a , they the one who my sister, ah but that's at winsdale oh i see. mm. that's where they spend, belinda spends all her holidays down there. oh you love it do you belinda? yes, yes. what do you do? well i just look after the ponies and granny. look after granny and get her dressed . and get her dressed. do you? downstairs, yes. i go and help my mum sometimes when i go over there. do you? aha. that's yes. good! that's good! oh well ye , belinda if you're the sort of person who can help someone to dress you're going to be a good nurse i think. i feel she would make a nurse. mm, this was nurse. yes, i was a nurse. was you? mm! wonderful life! mm. really is marvellous, i loved it! what erm mm. did you do, i mean were you erm general. general nurse yes. were you? mm. mhm. yes. oh it's a great life,a , i think anyway. no but erm my sister-in-law's going to do erm my sister says over there. she'd be yeah ! job to get out the house for a little while and she usually gets granny up, cos granny have to come down on one of those chairs. oh yes! and erm she can't see enough to be able to do it on her own. to work it herself. so she usually goes over there mhm. and then when suzanne was she had a lot of trouble carrying her about and she had to be in hospital quite a bit mm. we looked after her. erm they left belinda in charge of her. well how nice! and the nights? yeah. once or twice really? in the night. yeah. mhm. how old are you now belinda? fourteen. fourteen, yes. mhm. aha. well you're quite grown up now really. mhm. aha. that's er, wonderful to be able to do that though, a lot of people wouldn't have the patience. that's a lovely one, ben! mhm. so you see why he like to get over there cos he got oh yes! i certainly can. how very nice! yeah. i suppose they're farm cats, they're not made pets? yeah they are made pets. oh they're our cats. they're our cats, but they are they? oh are they? they were poisoned. poisoned, somebody killed them deliberately! oh no! they reckon i know something from farm cats that are dying. mm. cos i they er but this old lady here where is she, in the kitchen? his great, she's in the kitchen. great grandmother to these. really? er yeah is she? erm her mother or was that the fireman who go up, went up ringer school. mm. mm. and he used to go without dinner. yeah. oh yes! and when and when erm dad got in a land rover round field it used to beat them down the field! yeah. ha! go down to the bottom and it does the same to go to the top. but when but when i come to go back she see me go the land rover she's up the top waiting for me! oh, is that so ? she's up that . yes! cats do she didn't come on the road way she went in the field side. yes. yes. yeah. then they're when they come out erm and she had two erm mice under each foot, front feet and two in her mouth. one in each foot and one in her mou , two in her mouth! oh no! yes, cor she was marvellous! she caught all at once? like that? yes! she put six in her mouth! it was as or whatever she put her foot, don't know, don't know if popular what we feed him cos we don't move when i wa , the time they were put into bush cos of er no. when you life them up, well of course the they've seen so many mice, she grabbed two in that mouth straight away and two and as they were going up she grabbed ha ! two in each foot! gracious me! yeah. phorgh yeah. she does move! oh well of course, it's paradise for mice isn't it oh yes! that sort of thing? lovely, dry you see. yes! yes. and you as says you can't mess them about you see, cos after i've and smother so we have oh i see. be careful what we're doing. not in big er, sort of shapes all the time. oh yes, yes five hundred in a bay. my word! mm. that's a lot isn't it? you know. do you still do some of then len? no, i can't no. do nothing tell you no. the truth. no. i can't put my shoes on! can't you? i have to put his shoes and socks on. can't put my socks on! really? no, i can't ge , that's the closest i can . is it arthritis? joints in my back,wha , with walking, carrying too much weight when i was young. oh i see, yes! and they get hooked, it acts like a bearing, a ball bearing and they get a little bit on the edge that's right. from carrying too much weight and then they get hooked and they press them down and runs right down this leg. that's right, yes. ooh sometimes i can't get down the street can i? no. really? yeah. mm. well he don't go down the street so much do no. you? it's so much yeah you harder! but how much wiser you are with mr greed! ah ah ah! ah yes, yes! a silly man, i can't understand, cos you used to get in a car now what i went in the car sunday, well it the that was devil of a job to get out of it! was it? yes. mm. well mm. now he did that with ease, you know. mm. mm. what a pity that was! and he was driving as well, weren't you? we used yes. to drive them back, come in the pub. is he still alive? yes. no, he's still alive but he's yes , he's not going to get better. well, he's more or a less a cabbage though isn't he? mm. yeah, he's not going to get better!. yeah. a nice old gentleman too! i mean he's a lovely oh, a real english gentleman yeah, well i used isn't he? to love him come in the pub, you know what i mean he nice to talk to and that yes! yes. yeah. but that was a, that's a real tragedy! mm. yeah. but er, but once you're older unless it's a matter yep! of life and death you're better not going no. to operation. and he weren't very old when he oh! start thinking that! how old are you there ben, do you know? erm about about six eight. about, six, seven, or eight, you can't be no more. seven or eight. really? and you're now erm twelve. twelve. twelve. yes. now that was still, that was here in this house oh yes wasn't it? , yeah. yeah, that was on erm that was across there near the road. across there down the road. oh yes! the other side of the main path. mm. oh i see! that's a lovely picture! i like that! what were you doing there ? well he had a birthday at the school pool. ah, but i'm sure you put more are you? oh. what tha , and this is a good way to keep them isn't it? yeah. yes. they don't smudge then do they then? you what love? they don't smudge do they? and they if it's i'll i'll try and rewrite my erm this is something that is not a problem, every time i write a letter it or write my introductory letter it comes out different, so i'll try and simplify my introductory letter as well, i think we'll get a bigger uptake, mm. if people are more aware right from the outset of what we actually want from them. yeah. erm i don't i don't think that the the er four thing bumf thing that includes that long list really need to be altered any more. no. that seems fine. i mean that's available for people who want more detail about what's going on. mm. but i i i think you should say a clear and simple statement of what our what we need for the company or person approached is yes. yes. okay right. that is a thing to do and i will do it. damn it. i think you ought to put the er the word tape into your ah. sound recordings, audio. yeah. cos all we want is the words. i thought i used the word audio somewhere actually. er it would still be more obvious not on this. yeah okay then . erm. yeah. can you make the anonymity would be very very difficult if it's if it was a video recording. it would really wouldn't it. they presumab they presumably think we're very high tech and we can do this oh the sort of thing where you where the faces all have wibbly bits on them. yeah. can you make the very brief leaflet, the one we've just talked about, yes. a couple of sentences, something which will fit on a piece of paper that size, because if you can, we can have that on one bit, and the well to one side or the other we can have the information that we want, and we can photo then photocopy those two things, next to each other mm. and double it up on a four. so we can get we can get something with project so that there's a name people will mm. mm. er and a statement of what we want. and then the thing in small print so we we because if we do it on the company 's headed notepaper, all we'll manage ah per photocopy is one sheet. yes. and your print, i i assume your printer doesn't do huge print does it? it does actually. it does. th yeah fairly big print. okay because or i can i mean i intend to laser print mm. things at spike's work next time i can get out there. you see if we photo-reduce this, all those addresses just get lost. yeah. one thing one thing we could do is erm reduce or not not photo-reduce but just cut out the middle of a sheet of the headed notepaper, then you get two two ha er two a five things but that way round. mm. rather than that way round. right. er so so okay. landscape rather than portrait. so so long as we get something. but i'd i'd rather use the headed notepaper, than that. okay. we'll get better copies off the headed paper, than off the shiny. mm. and anything which says project on it. shiny. but yeah er. but i'd like it to have the company address so that people can follow u can follow up our references without us having to give them the address. mm. without them having to ask us for the address. mm that's reasonable okay. mm. erm yeah i l i like people to be able to independently check up on us, because that gives us so much more validity. mm. yeah. er if but if you want to do something like that, to organise something, because if it goes on a five yeah. and that means that i can photocopy them for half the price. yeah. of course. and if i'm going to be leafleting thousands of people in conferences, or at least hundreds, mm. going to make a difference. yeah. mhm. a any photocopying that needs to be done in great bulk, erm get quotes, and let the company pay for it rather than you paying for it and then pay you back, because i might be able to for instance get an account thingy somewhere yeah. and get a further discount. yeah. okay. erm i mean as it is i i can get photocopying for four p a sheet getting fifty at a time, and that give i get a receipt for that which is better than three p a sheet without a receipt. yes. mm. in terms of tax back. agreed. erm actually it's about the same, but it looks better in my accounts. in that case it's probably best if you handle the photocopying as well because i can't right. get anything better than five pence with receipt. yes okay. erm yeah. is conference season already under way then? conference season will begin on monday. right. there may be a s there may have been some guests turn up monday tomorrow or monday week? monday tomorrow. yes mo monday tomorrow but that won't that'll be one conference and i i'll be able to well maybe two conferences by the end of the week. but i'll find out from the conference office who's around right. at the very least i can find the keynote speaker at each one and chase him. okay. okay. erm yeah. yeah i mean just getting the keynote speech from each one would be nice wouldn't it. mhm. erm yeah, that's good. okay, any other business. 7 how about a statement of what we intend to do this week, right okay. so that you know what we're off to do. yeah. erm well the things i have to do are basically all the things listed on here still. ha ha. erm that i went through at the beginning you know which is basically write to lots of people okay. phone some other people. erm. how quickly will you be able to prepare the erm bumf for the conferences? midweek. and something to go along with our information people we speak to . by midweek er . erm yeah, tomorrow's basically horrendously busy and i'm temping the next two days, but i'm free in the evenings. mhm. right. unless this company seminar is in fact on wednesday evening in which case i'm also busy this wednesday evening. let me know about that whenever you can. yeah. i'd actually prefer to send you to that than go to it myself, because i think that would be a better use of time. yeah, that seems reasonable. erm erm but i'll i'll have to find out from them, it may be that they don't want me to send anybody else to it because i made the initial contact with them. erm. erm okay. but i will you know so i've got to contact conference office, continue chasing up these people about various student things, that we have we now tapes of we just have to get the consent forms for. yeah. er and look into local m p's and their speaking agendas, council elections round york and see if any of the student events this summer have speakers. right. i'm doing company , and i'm contacting julian on tuesday. and i'm sending all this lot off that didn't get sent off, and contacting i'm being contacted about the place . yeah okay. erm i will chase company this week, and see what can be done about er sending that package off to my father recordings will come out of that. mhm. and i will be contacted by clive yeah. so side b more information about . . yeah. and i will start looking at organising some recordings in wales, because i i know that's one area where i can get some stuff done. yeah. business, erm church meetings, religious meetings and schools. so i will get on to that. right. okay. erm you're going to talk to your mum. i'll talk to my mum. yeah. good. and you're going to are you going to try and check about er whether you are yes. going to be able to ? well i intend to do. . where are you going to be doing that ? i'll have to ask . i don't know i've never needed never tried. to get one yes. erm how about well erm the council offices are on the the little square at the bottom of stonegate. stonegate coneygate yeah. coney street. you know in there. yeah. er when do you want to go? because if i'm going to check out the council elections and things we may as well go together and do our business there and annoy all the people at the council all at once. aha. er you're going to be busy tomorrow because it's the first day of the conference isn't it. yes. i'm going to be busy tomorrow. erm how about i and thursday probably. how about i contact you tomorrow evening? okay.. after you get back from work. you get back from work about tenish? ish? half past ten. okay i'll contact . right. i will attempt to use that there tape, ta-da, erm to note the minutes and get those back out. erm i'll attempt to do that tonight but i don't hold out much hope so don't hold your breath. erm other than that i'm going to write to . and do the other things that you . among the four thousand other things that i yeah. also said i was going to do. erm all this and have a life as well. excellent. is there any of the above that you would like to allocate to me for example? i'm willing to take on more. if there's anything you . erm i'll have to think about it actually. yeah. okay. erm most of the writing letters and things are follow-ups so i need to do those myself cos i did the originals. yeah. erm erm erm. we're just going to write to local councils arbitrarily and and see what comes up. need to do that now. mm. and i will contact any tapes that anybody can get to me this week would be very very good because i was saying er a few minutes ago erm i'm intending to send whatever we've got done tomorrow week. i will get something at one of the conferences. i don't know how much but i'll get something. yeah. and i will er plead for high a fast turnaround time from the scottish stuff. mhm. right. that would be very good. erm mm. mhm. feel free to take any of the . that's right your tape machine came out of one of those boxes. that's right. this is the one that's going up to scotland. that one'll be going to that's the one that's going down south. . have one of those and have one of those. great. and the box may be under the table. oh. the headphones togeth or have you got the headphones already? you've got everything to do you've got the headphones haven't you. i've got got the machine. you've got the machine just got the packaging. aha! it's just that i'm going to send erm right. i'm going to send one to erm . yes. erm do you want any of the massively helpful packaging that came that all these came in? the the the polystyrene doohickeys? actually it might be an idea. do they have small boxes as well? they they came in ? they came in massive great big humongous boxes packed with polystyrene actually. right. erm ooh. well they i think they came by red star. ah. erm or they came by something where somebody turned up in a little van that wasn't a post office van and i had to sign. right. can i i if i can get any tapes to you this week i shall. yes. erm i think mine may be a week delayed. yeah. erm i would imagine . mhm. . transcription machines. you were checking about that last time we met. yes. erm the cheapest i can get them is about two hundred pounds, the fastest i can get them is forty-eight-hour delivery. right. erm if i want them quicker than that they cost more. why? who knows. erm that's two hundred pounds not including the stupid little setdphones you get with them because they're crap. =3u . erm i have two sets of headphones that can be used with two spare sets of headphones that can be right. used with transcription machines. decent ones that are comfortable to wear . rather than the ones that try and pull your ears erm off your head. yeah. i do have a transcription machine for minicassettes. if anybody can record onto minicassette please do. i have some minicassettes. ooh that that reminds me . i asked my father about his answerphone. there's no way of removing the erm tape. right. so . . but it's generally the kind where you can record notes onto them. yeah.. erm where you can get the tape out. yeah. mm. erm i've got a well mike has it but erm a transcription machine that takes minicassettes and also has a recording thing with it that makes absolutely excellent recordings. really totally awesome ones. erm it can hear from the other side of the of mike's living room it can hear the person on the other end of a telephone connection which is is is is quite impressive actually. erm so that's available as another recording machine and there's a small supply of minicassettes to go with it. i can get more because my father does have a minicassette recorder and a stock of tapes. right. erm if if they are useful i will ask him to box them up and send them. the transcription that you're going to do, erm mm how how ? david has done some transcription this week, erm and i've done a bit,erm and that's basically, well we've got one side of, you've got one side of those lectures to do erm and i've got some of the recording that i made on thursday to do and that and that . erm so also . yes. i know i know want to have a look back at them. yeah. have a look back at . mm. erm so so you'll take care of the transcription . for the moment yes. erm okay. i mean as soon as we've got enough tapes in that we can't between us transcribe them in a week i buy another record er another transcription machine right. erm right. . but i want to avoid if possible erm teaching sort of the old version of the system of conventions. yes. yes i understand yeah. if if at all possible. mm. erm but this is the only area where where have ever been slow in mm. getting that to me. but er for no apparent reason. yeah. . i mean that's one reason why i'm setting monday monday week as the date final date for making the first return. i think i could probably send a return on tuesday erm but i'd rather wait because if i can send stuff properly done rather than you know done to the latest or or the the pre-latest system then i will. it makes more sense . yeah. erm if you could contact me erm as soon as possible regarding the cost of either servicing or replacing yeah. my keyboard i would like to get my system up and running erm right. because i've got for it. what's wrong with your keyboard? erm it's tired basically. yeah. erm keys on it stick. it's fully functional but mm. if there's some way of . mm. seriously, w d forty. erm yeah actually pull pull all the keys off and and works. and get in there with a . stiff paintbrush. right. erm it works on okay. electrical . if you could get me a quote i shall see what d i y i can do and then find out how much it's going to cost me to buy a new yeah. one because i've buggered the last one up. right. i'll do that tomorrow as well. one thing i must ask you about just while i'm thinking about it. . erm i have locoscript for yes. my amstrad at present. will you be able to provide me with a erm wordperfect package? not on the amstrad. okay. i i'm using locoscript on the amstrad and it's adequate and i can then just port ascii text files across into wordperfect . right, fine. erm i don't use the same disks as you. i actually use the amstrad disks. that's okay, i've got both drives. . i can convert . so it's perfectly fine for me to transcribe on oh yeah. this amstrad yeah. in locoscript and you can . you can use erm er cut and paste, you know blocks and yeah. erm phrases for in fact quite adequately to speed up the transcription. mm. erm mm. it's not as nice as the macros on wordperfect but it's adequate. mm. erm . erm . erm i had a problem with the amstrad keyboard . it's so tight. this big. it's so dinky. . it's got as many keys on it as an i b m erm mm. erm you know enhanced keyboard and it's this big. perhaps because i don't touch-type i did have a problem . yeah. it's relatively simple. you just count five buttons to the left after the nine . . yeah.. that would be the four. five buttons to the left. i knew what she meant. the other left. yeah. this left. i mean she di did did demonstrate which left she meant. yes. five yeah. buttons to the left. yeah. it makes perfect sense. using my right hand. i mean yeah. what do you expect? okay. i mean that's my left. over there. mm. anyway. yeah. okay. right, fine. . that that's the er . it's an eight two five six? yeah. yeah. no problem. erm right, well i think that's about it. erm . no, that's that's all the business i had. right. i i want to push off erm because i've got a lot of work to do tonight. so i'll . on a on a serious note, if there is anything you want to delegate, you know where to find me, shout. yeah. i will. yes i certainly will. erm that's it. yeah. hit it. look look what the wind's look look what the wind's blown in, look what the wind's blown in. they didn't even tell me you were coming. what have we got to do to you today? there's an awful pain in my back doctor. a pain in your back? aye it's in between my, well in the bottom of my shoulder blades . mhm. and it it goes away and then all of a sudden it comes back, and it's re it's really torturing me. right let's have a wee look here and see if we can make it sore. what side ? , down there, down there, down down in down aye. in that corner there? aye, right there, aye. aye, beauty, oh i'm getting good at that, you see, it's all these years of practice i've had. . see she's enjoying that. that's a better bit isn't it? aye,oh he loves that doesn't he? aye . that's it. what about as far round as that high,nothing as far round here ? no nothing no. nothing up there? no, and a wee bit there. i'm liking this, i'm liking this. what about there? and there? aye right there, aye. right. we've got it coming up that bit there, right. aye. right up through there, and tell me if i do that oh ? aye right there at to. she enjoyed that. will i do it on the other side? no, don't bother. aha. i'm feeling deprived this morning. i'm feeling deprived. what what er what brought that on marie, any idea? erm i haven't been bothered with it for a couple of months now doctor, and thought it was an ulcer, didn't you marie? oh i always thought it was my ulcer that was causing it, you know, so i was, every time i took it i was taking an extra samtack mhm. and and wasn't making any difference. and i tell you when i really lying on my aha. side to go you know to go to sleep at night , that's right. that's when i feel that's right. right. do you want her turned into a human being again? i do. just say the word and time to give me a wee shot at my blood pressure as well doctor. right. cos it's months before i had the time. never get to heaven. you'll never got to heaven. made a shocking mess of that. is this is this you wanting a pump? that's what i said. for the daughter, she's and she cannae carry it off, and whether she it's a good job it's not you. i'd be if it was me i'd be i'd need a miracle. i'd be sending for the police. that's what i'd be doing. aye, so would i be. well that's that's for the . that's the stuff alright. that's that's the stuff. it's got a green card in it and it's got enough stuff to last you until will that be alright by aye? i actually and sometimes i come right up. that's right, right up there and right up, that's right . that's right, aye. you see, you'd think i knew about these things wouldn't you, you'd think i knew about these things. your muscles. just go on just the one. no the two. just the one. just the one? just the one. i've got the two afternoon. just the one then. don't you get up . is he still putting up with you? aye. is he? just it's just near there. just. now then hold on to that, that's enough. policies away, that's alright, it looks as if it's normal. oh well wouldn't even bother dusting them. oh i'm being got at, aren't i? aye. good. at all, not bad at all for somebody that age. that age. on thursday. she had a birthday? i'm forty seven. i thought you said she,i thought you were stopping having birthdays. och i stopped when i were twenty one. aha. and is she twenty one again? to be twenty one again, aha. how many times is that? four times now. tablets please? aye. yeah. your warfarin, warfarin, aye, please. let's see now ans aspirin. aspirin's still to sounded like seven fifty or something? seventy five. seventy five. oh what him he's threatening to do away with you. do away with you, marie. hundreds. how is your mum? ah she's . thanks a lot. thanks a lot. and as for jackie's . the paracetamol is that the dissolving ones? no from the swallowing . it's the ones for swallowing, right. have you tried the dissolving ones by the way? no. i've never tried them, no. want to try i dissolve my ha aspro though . could use you sometimes you say they kind of, aye catching my throat, aye. well then. i mean they're the same, the same the same as your other. exactly the same thing. they look slightly bigger, but i mean it's only because the extra stuff's in it for it to dissolve in . dissolve in. so so that's i'll give you some of them this time aye, and see how you get on. and if you feel they're better then fine, we'll get that for you. no bother at all, no bother at all . now then, birth pill. aye, which ? i've got them there i cannae see it. which one's that? i have to write it down . oh, right. still in road? no she's gone to her own house no er. doctor. i forgot to put the change in the,get it in, she's moved to the other right enough. er sixty three lodge, sixty towers, by the lodge . sixty, oh not mhm oh aye. it's not , it's lodge. . towers. towers. towers? mhm. towers, that's aha. only moved there last month or so doctor, aye. yeah. i don't think she's wanting to change you anyway,i think she's keeping you on. oh, she might have trouble, she might have trouble cos the health board have changed all the regulations. oh tell them. aye. aye, aye. what does she do now then doctor? the best thing to do, check with the health board, they'll the only other way is to go a certain distance into nowadays right. and if it's er if it's past the bit the health board allow then she should she's right behind it isn't it, the health centre. where where she's got her flat. is that right, oh well she aye, she's right behind the centre. no chance, aye. no chance. the this the because she's near that? no, the only other one's sort of a boundary, sort of a boundary. ah right, right. and over the level crossing or past the over the level, right, so we're talking by ? aye past past yeah. go that way so if she goes into the hea the health centre and says, you know that she's from hill and she's changing address and she want's to change over cos she's moved into that bit of the town, they'll they'll get her sorted out. they'll have the get here a special form to fill in. right. they'll have the forms here, she doesn't need to take anything with her, okey-doke? aye. just just says to them that she's moved. watch him, seven hundred and fifty, just you watch him. aye then, okay, after i'm giving him a tablet as well. you're gonna sleep at night. who was it that was asleep too long? you're right, he's sleeping too long. i'll get the door. right dr . there we are. right cheerio doctor . right okay, right, cheerio mate. in your own minds, now, i want you to think of a famous building or a famous site or perhaps a famous street or avenue yes a a statue would be fine, erm or something that's famous, like an animal perhaps, or a park erm or a zoo, although that might be a bit difficult. you'll see why in a minute. i'd like you to think if i say building that will give you the idea. if you think of a famous building that you associate with london okay we are doing life in the city, we all live in london okay, think in your mind of a famous building for example saint paul's, what i want you to do, and we'll go round the class, is that i want you to describe yourself yourself? erm yes if you were that if you were that building oh okay, pretend that you're that building and i want you to describe yourself and and i want the rest of the class to see if they can guess what it is and how long they take it they take to guess okay, and if you think you know what that person is, put your hand up don't don't shout out. so, for example, if i was doing there's no writing involved, just a speaking thing. so for example if i was doing saint paul's i'd say right erm erm i'm a building in the city of london, very old, very big and extremely famous on of the most obvious things that really stand out about me is my very large domed roof with a little cross on top of it. princess diana and and prince charles were married in me. shorts right, so then you'd guess that i was saint paul's cathedral. right i i've taken one of the more obvious ones. you needn't do that yeah, yeah, no. do you think you can do it quite well? yeah, no, yeah you're looking a bit unsure. yeah, yes sir. don't you want to do it? yeah open that window sir, can i open that window, please? let's try it oh sir the reas the reason listen please. the reason why it's quite a good thing to do is because it gets you into descriptive language okay and thinking about how you describe things, adjectives are describing words. but take a little bit of time now to think of a building, or a thing, or a place or an animal or a street right let's start with erm you got one? i got one. whose gotta good one? yeah let's start again let's start with you. you gotta good one. now if you think you know what building or place is, put your hand up, but i think what we'll do is actually let him get to the end of his description first. what if somebody erm, erm thinks of one that somebody else has thought of erm, now that's a good question in that case describe it differently. well, you could describe it differently yes, or try and think of another one, all right, right let's start again. i'm big, and i've gotta a hole in the middle of me all the lines and it's green all the best teams no let him finish okay, we're gonna let him finish. what am i? i couldn't even hear that properly. okay can we have it again, nice and clear could you close the door please for me please oh yeah an' i'm the best one in england. i know. right,jus just do the first bit again. i'm big an' i gotta hole in the middle you're big and you've got a hole in the middle and what's the next bit. there's grass wiv lines on and whenever play games and whenever get somefink and i'm the best one in england. right, i think i know what it is and there's a forest of hands erm they know what it is. erm right, louisa, whatcha think building or thing is? wembley. wembley. yep did everybody think that? yeah. yeah, i did too. that was that was a good description then. i think the best in england gave it away and the lines in the grass. the hole in the middle was obviously when you look down on top when you look down, when you are seeing it in on the television pictures, you look down from an aerial view. yeah, right, okay very good. erm right erm let's have a lady now yeah, yeah i'm, i'm quite big, i used to do they used to do ballet in me. they did cinderella in me, erm erm i'm not a featre , i'm a library as well erm.. oh, i know what it is. erm ssh, don't interrupt . erm i'm near a macdonalds, erm i'm quite kinda that's it. what am i? all right, erm erm erm, the civic centre. yeah where, where's the civic centre old kent road. old kent road, okay, good. erm, can we have yours please. right, i'm a place, erm no, there's no need to laugh of course she's a place, that's fine go on listen to her. erm got animals, erm got shops and things are expensive in there, you have to pay to get in, it's very big and its got aquari aquariums oh that's easy. anything else? no. no. very good. erm daniel. london zoo. yeah. london zoo, regents park. buckingham palace. right, erm let's have another boy, stuart, nice and loud and clear i'm a large place on the river bank i've got very expensive things in me. oh, i know. don't have a heart attack an' if somefink flew away i'd fall down. what am i? what was that last bit? i know what it is. what was that last bit, stuart? if somefink flew away, i'd fall down. if something flew away, i'd fall down. claire tower o' london. yeah. is she right? she is. what do they say about the ravens? if they flew away it would fall down. right, okay. who's next? katie. i'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very tall. very well, claire i think that was a dead give away that was. right i, i, i'm a tall building, i've got a bell in me a what? every hour i ring out. big ben. yeah. tall building with a bell in you? yeah. right, okay. an' he rings every hour. right, who's got a good one. oh just louisa. nah, i've forgotten it. oh, no. oh, no i haven't. go on then. right, i, i'm quite a small building, erm, i got scary stuff in me. london dun , london dungeons sir's house. thank you very much. right, london dungeons. right, okay go on then. if you look upon me from an aerial view, i'm open. yes, thank you very much year seven, carry on katie. there's grass in me wiv lines on it. i know what this is. this is a bit like but go on. and erm a very good team play there and arsenal won by the way. not millwall. i got one, i got one. no, sir, i got one. erm erm i wanna think of one that isn't too easy. no, sir, i've got one, i've got one that's not easy. okay, okay, here's one. i am quite old, how i used to generate lots of electricity. i'm by the river bank an' i've got four i know, i know great big towers which are painted an off white colour, an' i'm featured, an' i'm featured on the front of a very famous album by pink floyd. who? aha, you see you don't know this one do you oh, er. sarah sarah 's hand was up first. banksides power station. banksides? yeah. no. what's it called? stuart. battersea power station. i think, i think there is one at bankside, but battersea power station was the one i was thinking of. i haven't done one yet. let me do one. right, yvette first, she's done one. right right, i'm erm very big, i'm like a football ground, but i'm not and erm lots of crickets have fallen on me before i'm near erm kennington i know, i know. please. and ian botham is very popular in my in my place where i am please, please. please, please, sir. er all right i think you better ask him. the oval. the oval. sir, sir i got one. oh yeah . i fought you said you have you done one, stuart? right which one best one go on . one more then we'll do something different. i fought you said have you got one, stuart. well right, you have as well, which, which one of you's got the best one i wonder. go on . in me what? like a crystal oh, i know. le.. let's let's reach the er . and yeah it's almost where i can't actually hear description. hang on a minute, hang on that's what he said. since when have center parcs been in london. oh, yeah. stop, stop. listen, okay. what i want you to do now is tell me what you've been doing with miss this week tuesday. oh. put your hands up please. right, sarah. we've been erm talking about different transport and some poems erm and we do like what else. like so you've done a transport poems right, have you done advantages and disadvantages yeah, yeah no we ain't. erm i did some of that with you erm you've written to right, i think what we are going to do having done you're doing most of your inner city stuff with miss it now, an' i wanna give you some basic skills sheets you said there's no writin'. all teachers are the same, that they go back on their word. oh, please sir. right sarah, could you share with katie, and you two share as well right, i wanna do something all together now okay, so you can't go right now right. okay year seven, year seven, i won't tell you again, you're being too noisy. now, the sheet in front of you even if you've got a bundle of sheets is entitled writing dialogue, okay. now, learning how to punctuate dialogue is not easy because there are a lot of things to remember and i want to see whether or not you can do this okay. so, first of all, look carefully at the sheets, and if you're sharing with somebody else, look at what you've got between you okay, and, gemma, stop doing that now. you don't need to fiddle with your pens or clatter around with pencil cases, i want you to listen. right, or rustle the paper even, you're not looking at it are you? right, that's better. writing dialogue, follow as i read please. you may think writing dialogue, recording the actual words people use is difficult, it's quite straightforward really. look at the diagram and then try the exercise. i want you to have a look at that diagram and read it to yourself quietly now. look at the labelling, which the rules, those labels being the rules for writing dialogue. hold on a second please. look at it carefully, you've gotta between you should i start it? don't start it just yet has everybody read it? yes sir. right. i wanna do this together first of all before you write it yourself. erm who can do the first sentence for me. oh what, change it? yeah. take this pen, come out here. on the board? all right. make sure everyone can read it. i want you to write the exercise and now try this and see if you can do it. here, i'll hold it for you. thanks the the first line. yep, the first, the first sentence. fullstops. i know, you've gotta put all the punctuation in. oh. the re , the rest, the rest of you look at this and see if he's right. quiet please okay just do what you think's correct right, gimme the pen. thank you. erm next sentence, who wants to do it? don't correct anybody else's, you just do the sentence as you think it's right. is anybody beginning to see some mistakes. yeah. i can see a mistake. should be a fullstop where right, next sentence please. doctor. ethan. you all right? yes, sir. erm not really. fullstops in . right. right, next line. erm stuart. you said line. well, i'll tell you later. you get it all right. hold your breath. that's a sentence that's the end of the sentence, is it? mm it's not. sir, i know finish sir, you said line. okay, sentence, sentence, i want to the end of the sentence. can you do to the end of the sentence. well, you write until you think that the sentence is finished. well, if that's what you think, write it down all right, stuart. leave it there and the pen. now i'm gonna leave it there, 'cos one thing that's emerged is that even though you've had this sheet with the diagram to tell you how to do it, you can't do you can't do it yet. i know you can't write , you can't write in dialogue yet. so i'm just go through sir, i know what was going wrong. with you the mistakes. i want you to pay attention. then you can get a chance to do it again in your book. now, first of all no, don't speak, just listen please listen that includes you. right, one thing that you need when somebody speaks is inverted commas okay or speech marks, name, if you read it out aloud name ask the doctor, the inverted commas come here because name is somebody speaking and it tells you that somebody is speaking here, it says asks okay say asked. asked. say asked. asked asked it's not aksed , is it? sometimes you say that. asked. all right. asked. yvette, you say asked. asked. asked. gemma, say asked. aksed aksed . say again. aksed . aksed asked. asked. georgina say asked. asked. ethan say asked. aksed say again. a a aksed victoria say asked. asked. asked stuart. aksed ,aksed . asked. asked. asked. asked, asked, asked. okay, okay, all right year seven, that was just by the way. right, name asked the doctor. now the way he asks that is as a question. so, so, look,. now as your sheet tells you and as you should know if you read it carefully, punctuation marks where someone is speaking come inside the inverted commas, so, the question mark is a type of punctuation, isn't it, obviously, so it comes within the inverted commas. okay? sir , there's somefink wrong there, 'cos she says blenkinsop and it should be just blenkinsop. yeah, there there are lots or mistakes, there are lots of mistakes all the way through sir,do it. start a new line if a new person is speaking. yes, well, we'll come to that. we haven't got to that yet. sit tight for a moment and we'll get to it. now, name question mark asked the doctor now that is the end a sentence, so we have a fullstop there. and we have a new line because somebody else is talking. somebody else is saying blenkinsop so what i'm gonna do is rub this out that's not fair so, name asked the doctor fullstop, blenkinsop , blenkinsop replied replied the patient blenkinsop replied the patient. pardon, have you noticed something? yeah, what? yes, speech marks, what else have you noticed? comma. comma or stop. where does the comma come? after blenkinsop yes, where else? it comes, the comma comes inside the inverted commas. what else have you noticed about the lines? you start a new line when someone else is speaking. yeah, it does say that here. you start a new line every time a new person speaks. they've all got capital letters. what's all got capital letters, stuart? well, the names an' that. we know that names, we know that all names have to have capital letters. an' everything in the speech marks has a capital letter to start it. yes, that's right, or to put it the other way round, sarah, whenever you start speech, whenever you start writing down what the wor the words somebody actually says, louisa, yvette, concentrate hard you always use a capital letter. okay. so, pardon and blenkinsop and name all have capital letters. okay the n, b and the p. name asked the doctor, blenkinsop replied the patient, pardon, new person speaking i said blenkinsop. now, i've done that, you're gonna do the rest yourself in your books. i need a new book. yep. sir, i need a new book. you've got your books haven't you? yes, go on. sir, can i have one 'cos good grief you've got through your books very quickly. okay i'll have to give you some paper actually. here's a book. sir, sir can we do the diagram? sir. yep. what do i ? no don't copy out the diagram, just do the exercise which starts like this you mean this bit in the middle? no. you know where it says now try this, i'd like you to do that exercise, putting in all the punctuation. punctuating the speech. what, re-write the passage that one? ye-es. yes, it's this one. i've done the first bit for you. you, you carry on from where i've left off. or, rather, include that, do that first, an' then finish it yourselves. you don't need to talk to do this. sir, you said yes, we are. hello. hello doctor. hello anna. what can i do for you tonight? so help us,in here the back of my neck, and across here. elbows. oh oh. neuralgia. and all down my down my, see even here doctor aye. my fingers and that you know? right. sometimes i feel as if i cannae stand it down there. excuse me. . see in here in my neck, too aye. mhm. it's as if sometimes when i turn round, oh dear aha you feel it aha. catching there? aye, right. mhm. aye. that's a s that's a neuralgia, a, a slight is it? inflammation on the nerves mhm. where they come down there. aha. and they go through . aha. right. okay. i'm not going to poke about aha. but er that's right. right down here, across here, right there, here. that's right . and i thought across here too, terrible here. here as if it was gonna . and see my elbows? like a toothache. my elbows were sore that's right. that's right. and everything, you know in behind the ear here, i felt as if my head was aye. swollen. from here, right up over aye. the top, aha. and then from there right down the back, yeah. across the aha. shoulders, around the front here, aha. down here, into your elbows, aye. with a toothache and then right down your fingers. then your fingers, aha, aye. now doctor, i was up, i had that terrible pain across here, mhm. i thought i was taking a heart attack, but er doctor gave me a rub of that di difa dif diflam. diflam? diflam. yes aha. that's right. so would i, would i still use that or what do you think, painkillers or what doctor? no there is a, there's a special stuff i'm going to give you is there? to get rid of this for you. now the other thing that very often goes with this is a crunching noise that's right. when you, when you move your neck. see sometimes i well not all the time no no. no. but sometimes you feel as if it's going to jerk you yeah, that's right. you know you're not going to be able to move it any and it's going to stay that way. no, anna, you're alright. you're alright. now you're still working? yes, aha. ah, right. take these tablets just at bedtime. aha. don't take them during the day. just two of these you can either take one after your cup of tea, and one before you go to bed bed, aha. or you can leave them both till bedtime. aha. that'll . yeah. aha. that's fine, aha. okay? right, doctor , that's fine. that's er but that is where the, the nerve aha. from up here, mhm. where it splits into all the mhm. aye. wee bits. is that that kind of a swelling you get that swelling ? aye, that swelling at the side there. er this is the fourteenth of the fourth . there we are now. that's fine doctor . that should get rid of that for you. now, this will come back. mhm. it might come back in six months, in might come back in six years. mhm. nobody can tell you. no. but it keeps coming back . i thought maybe it was a kind of arthritic you know kind of no no. an arthritis kind of a thing, you know. well it's not. it's not. er the other, the other thing cos i've a gammy knee as well, see when i kneel see when i kneel a lot, let's have a wee look i can hardly and see what you've done to the poor thing. i don't know, there's a young doctor, but i cannae remember what she says, but see when i kneel a lot, doctor mhm. it's awfully hard to straighten them you know? aye. just let your, let your foot rest on the floor, anna. yeah. you can see there's been a wee bit of damage to that ligament just where it goes down over the top of that bone. mhm. just in here. aye, well it's just over . i mean it's not sore when i'm walking or anything doctor no. no, that's right. it's just, she's, i think, i cannae remember what she says, something about nodules on the kneecap or something. that's just a wee nodules on your kneecap,. mhm. she says they, she said they wouldn't really do anything with that unless no. the knee bent and you couldn't straighten it. no, leave that alone. mhm. leave that alone. they'll come and go as well,. right. they'll, they'll, they'll not . they won't they won't come to that as i say, it doesn't bother me constantly all the time, doctor you know, it's just i feel i was carrying some shopping down the road mhm. you know,keep secret. oh! that's right. that's right y you feel as though you want to rub it all the time. goodness. terrible isn't it? this is old age coming . old age doesn't come itself so they say. och well. och well, that's it. if that's all, if that's all we get for getting old,w w we'll do . that's it. well that's fine, we'll do. we'll do. okay, look after yourself now. right. thank you. right? cheerie-bye. cheerio now. i'm an old hand at it now. fire prevent ex fire prevention officer is gonna give us some real good tips. i've heard this film, seen this film quite a number of times and it really is good. i hope you didn't mind us starting but we decided that we'd not at all. excuse me. no. it's alright. we'd press on. so we've got a very good film. aha. er so over right. to you then jackie. before we start is, is can you use the o h p? are you going to use that o h p? i am going to use it. oh right. cos when we want yeah. this afternoon yeah i'm gonna use the o h p first and then right. okay. use the films jolly good. okay. okay? come and sit over here? yes. right. now there's an offer. right. i understand everybody enjoyed the physical jerks this morning. oh yeah. they were nice. was it on radio nottingham? feel the . keeps you fit. remarkable young lady isn't she? yes. right. well good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. my name's jack . i've just retired from the nottinghamshire fire and rescue service after just over thirty years service having reached, reached the er full time that i matured, that's thirty years service and attaining the ripe old age of fifty five. okay? so er they've put me out to grass so to speak. and i myself, as er your course leader has indicated, i was on a course here myself some four weeks ago listening to the same subject, doing the physical exercises etcetera etcetera and listening and trying to take in, i won't say i did, trying to take in all the different aspects that will affect us in our er retirement years. now when we get round to this subject this afternoon of fire a lot of people think that fire is a modern invention. okay? it's something to do with the new computer age of technology and space invaders and everything else. well we all know from our own history books that fire has been with us for a long long time hasn't it? right from the days of the early caveman when he used fire not only for cooking but he also used it as means of lighting and keeping his family warm er during the winter months. okay? but just let's have a look at some of the things that have caused fires or cause us to bring about legislation in fire. and one of the things that we learn very early in history is the great fire of london. can you all see that? great fire of london started second of september in sixteen sixty six started in the early hours at a baker's house in pudding lane. it burned for three days. it destroyed four hundred and thirty six acres of buildings, thirteen thousand two hundred houses, eighty seven parish churches, numerous other public buildings. remarkably only six persons died. but two hundred thousand were made homeless and the estimated loss was ten million seven and thirty thousand pounds in sixteen sixty six. imagine what the cost would have been mm. today mm. if that same scenario happened. i mean we've only got to have a look at the recent events in london went on about the insurances over the bombings over the weekend haven't we? to find out what the er costs are going to be. and this then created the first institute fire insurance and your rebuilding acts. okay? and not to go into too much depth, basically if i can find the switch. that's it. basically what happened from that, the crown at the time then decided to widen the streets and broaden the pavements. and also bought out the insurance company fire brigades where, when you go round a lot of the older buildings in our towns and cities today and even villages, you will find an insurance plaque or an insurance mark on the side of the house or the building concerned. and this was the old insurance plaque and if your house caught fire then the insurance fire brigade would come and put out your fire for you. okay? but not only have we had the great fire of london we've had other disasters in the country apart from disasters of the great war and the er second world war. we had the bradford football disaster and we had other disasters in nightclubs, the fairfield night nursing home in in nottingham mm. not far from us. all brought about some legislation. and let's face it ladies and gentlemen, legislation has governed us basically all our working lives hasn't it? okay? the education act for example. the fire precautions act. the fire safety and safety of sports grounds act. the factories act. the licensing act. the gaming act. so if you go to your local pub at night for a er an evening social and you have a drink no doubt you'll look round your public house and you'll see all sorts of pieces of fire equipment. fire alarm systems, fire extinguishers, emergency lighting all that sort of thing. and this has been brought about to enhance your safety, not only when you're at your place of work, but when you're out and enjoying your social evening either at a theatre, a pub, a club or the cinema or wherever you may be. and of course we come home don't we? and as you ladies and gentlemen now are thinking of retiring as i have done the least thing you want to be bothered about is rules and regulations. and this is sometimes where we slip up because fire is still prevailing with us even when we're in home. okay? a fire can start in the home and it can start very very easily. what do you think are the common causes of fire in the home situation? chip pans. chip pans. electrical electrical children playing with matches. yeah. electric blankets. okay. well just let's have a look at a few shall we? from this side, too far. right. the careless use of matches, lighters and pipes. okay? so let's look at the first one. excuse me i've got a rather heavy cold. matches and pipes, okay? some of us here this afternoon may be grandparents in our right. okay? and school holidays and you've got your grandchildren or grandchild come to stay with you and granddad has his favourite chair by the side of the fire. he has his box of matches or his lighter and he likes his pipe. and he likes it in a certain place and nobody must touch it. and, but of course young johnny comes along to spend the day with his grandparents and he likes to ape granddad. he likes to sit in granddad's chair and pretend that he's smoking granddad's pipe. okay? so if you do have grandchildren come to stay with you please make sure that you put your matches or you cigarettes, your cigars and your lighters way out of reach of the young children concerned. i know it's commonsense but unfortunately a lot of people still tend to leave these er objects lying about in easy reach of the young child, okay? one of your colleagues mentioned the careless use of cookers and chip pans. too. what happens? you put the chip pan on. the telephone rings, you get distracted. okay? and you're on the phone for ages and ages talking about a b and c, and all a sudden you think i can smell something burning. and low and behold you can't even get back into the kitchen because the kitchen is full of deadly fumes from the burning fat or er fat or oil within the chip pan. okay? drying, the airing of clothes is another one. you get your fire going. it's rather a damp day outside you want to finish airing your clothes off, so what to do? you stick them round on the old er airer in front of the open fire. it doesn't matter whether it's a solid fuel fire or a coal effect er g gas fire or whether it's an electric fire. if that er clothing becomes heated and it gets to the right temperature it will burst into the flames, likewise if it's not balanced properly and you go out the door the living room or the lounge into the kitchen or some other part of your home the draft by closing the door can knock the airer over, unbalance it and of course er set fire to the clothing. unguarded open fires. again the problem there is that you get the hot coals, if it's a solid fuel fire, er dropping off onto the hearth setting fire to the hearth rug. children playing with matches and lighters a again we've already covered this in object number one, but again it's a reminder. make sure that if you have children in the home that matches and lighters are placed well out of, place them out of reach. old faulty electrical appliances. again your electrical appliances do want servicing on a regular basis. how many of you use an electrical blanket? well quite a few of you. what do you do at the end of the winter time and er spring arrives and it's too warm for the electric blanket. what do you do? do you fold it in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions? or do you just screw it up, stuff it in the box up in the attic or out of way, out of sight until next september october november time when you want to fetch it out again? leave it on the bed. pardon? leave it where it was. leave it where it was. yes. on the bed. mm. okay, providing it's not used. okay. but very often people will just get hold of the er blanket, they'll screw it up okay? stick it away out the way until next winter and as we all know inside the electric blanket we have little and there's your blanket. we have little electric fibres, elements running through similar to an electric fire and if you crumple it up, and don't take care of it properly, what happens is you will snap one of the fine filaments. and what happens then, the electric current, as we know, flows backwards and forwards and it gets to this bit here and there's a break, so what does it do? the spark tries to jump the gap doesn't it? mm. mm. okay? it tries to jump the gap and in doing so sets fire to y the surrounding material that the blanket is made of and that's where you start to get problems on your fire blankets. excuse me? yeah. y you mentioned folding. is there a, is there a proper way to fold cos i haven't yeah nor seen it. yeah. normally normally with your folder there should be some m manufacturer's instructions come. no, there wasn't. except, there wasn't? well i, i would suggest that if you have a look and see how the lay of the er wiring. wires or the elements run and then fold it so it can avoid kinking those. so you fold in actual fact between the layers of the material and you don't try to bend the the wires. the the element. try to fold within the layers of the material so that you don't, and, and you keep your elements in a straight line then. okay? but if you've got any doubts, if you're in any doubts at all go to your local e board or some electrical supplier, a reputable electrical supplier, and they will tell you how to do it properly. okay? overloaded and wrongly fused plugs. okay? again another source of danger within the home because what happens or, what's the, what's the object of a fuse in a plug? safety . safety. right. but very often we will overlook safety because we stick any old fuse in we think it works, okay? but if something untoward happens to that ele piece of electrical equipment, okay? the electrical equipment overheats and then fuse as yo we all know should blow to cut off the supply of electrical equipment to that piece of apparatus. but sometimes if we've got the wrong fuse in it won't blow and it will continue to feed the electric current through to the heater or whatever piece of electrical apparatus it is, until such times as we have a fire situation. if we don't get a fire situation the person who is operating the piece of electric equipment is quite likely to get an electrical shock. how do you know which fuse to put? how do you know which fuse? right. quite simply normally when you buy a piece of electrical apparatus, doesn't matter what it is, normally it will tell you what fuse should be put into the er appliance itself, into the plug. mm. but you can, next time to go to pay your electricity bill, you can pick up this leaflet called plugs and fuses, electricity and you. okay? and that even tells you how to wire a plug correctly. it's a do that. good descriptive booklet and it tells you on the back, in actual fact i've got some handouts here which you can pick up when we've finished the talk, okay? there should be sufficient to go round. and it tells you the normal plug rating for a particular appliance. like a vacuum cleaner should be five amp, a deep fat fryer should be thirteen amp and various er little pieces of information on plugs and fuses. okay? so thank you. please pick one of those up before you leave this afternoon. has some new legislation just come out about all that. that any new electrical goods supplied after a certain date are now supposed to have the fu the, the plug the fuse plug actually er as it were fused i don't mean that sort of fuse, i mean no. i know what you mean, yes, yes used on to the wire so that you can't take it off. yes. i've got a feeling it is and i know if you yeah. i believe that has but now the plug's yeah. part of it. yeah. i, i believe that has but the only way i would ask you to ensure this oh yeah. if you're thinking is if you go to you your electricity board yeah. or ring up your local trading standards officer yeah. there's one based at county hall and if you're from the nottingham arnold area there's one based on front street at arnold. but please get in touch with a, a qualified electrician yeah. and they will tell you whether or not yeah. what the latest information is. yeah. okay? . yeah. i think it has come in but i think they're still still selling old stuff. that's right. yeah. they will still sell the old yeah. they will still sell the old cos it is a yeah. yeah it's market isn't it? yeah. i it's a market thing you know and ninety percent of the plugs sold loose have got thirteen amp mm. oh yeah. they have. fuses. yeah. yeah. and ninety percent of the things they're attached to still got thirteen amp fuses. i bet they'll have. yes. yeah, yeah, yeah. whether they're table lamp, irons or cookers this is a this is a question we very often get asked, why do they sell a thirteen amp fuse with a thirteen amp plug if it only wants a five amp in? as i say it's one of these er competitive market things, but if you go into an electrical shop and you buy a piece of electrical equipment, or if you want er a plug for it, a piece of electrical equipment because you found out that the plug on the electrical equipment at home is defective, it's got cracked porcelain or something like, then please have a word with the person who is selling you the plug and say look, this plug is gonna be fitted on x appliance. what type of fuse do i want in it? would you please ensure that the plug is correctly fitted with the right fuse? and i've, nine times out of ten a good, local, electrical retailer will do it there and then. may cost you just the, the cost of replacing the fuse or they might say there you are my dear, okay, no extra charge. okay? but please if you're in any doubt have a word with your electrical contractor, unless you are a competent person yourself and capable of doing it yourself and working out the, the ampage yourself. okay? incidentally electric blankets are only three amp. pardon? electric blankets should only be three amp. three amp three amp. yeah. mm. just while we're on that subject. anything on multi plugs? you know the sort of the erm thing you can plug in this sort of thing like this? that type of thing? yeah. mm. yeah. that as compared with the one you can put in that you know one at the top one at the side and . yeah. right. okay. again, this i haven't got an example to show you but i have seen one of these that's caught fire and the only reason it's caught fire is because this total piece of equipment is only capable of taking a maximum of thirteen amps. okay? so if you've got a three amp fuse another three amp fuse and a, a three amp fuse in and another one in it you've got nine amps haven't you? mm. okay? so you only want another small piece of electrical apparatus in there. so if you was to stick your washing machine in there for example. okay? or an electric fire then you would be asking for trouble because you'd be trying to draw out mm. more electricity out of the system then it's designed to give you. it's like trying to draw more money out of the bank and you've got no more cash left in reserve, okay? so if you are using these, i've got one of these at home in my lounge and the only thing that i run from it is my television set and the video recorder. that's all. the two other sockets remain empty. and then i know full well that i'm well within the guidelines of not going over the thirteen amp that this is designed to operate at maximum efficiency and safety. okay? a lot of people think because you've got four sockets you can bang four pieces of apparatus. well you can't. you can provided you keep under the thirteen amp rating but if you go over the thirteen amp rating then you are asking for trouble. okay? and the same applies to your multiple socket adaptor where you've just got one power point. you stick it in and you've got everything adjoined to it. you know you've got the electric fire, you've got the telly and everything else to it. again if you go over the thirteen amp you're trying to draw out more elec electricity and you're causing overheating. okay? and that's where you start to get your problems irrespective of whether your appliances are correctly fused you must make sure they are correctly fused but you must not exceed the thirteen amp otherwise you've had it. you will be asking yourself for trouble. mm. okay? am i not right in thinking that the batons themselves are fused, therefore they are a safety device, therefore t the fuse in the baton will go if you do exceed the thirteen? yes. it will go and it should go but again if you've not got the correct fuse in it won't go. you must always ensure that you have the correct fuse in. okay? but for safety's sake ladies and gentlemen please do not exceed the thirteen amps output on your piece of apparatus. probably if you're having a new home built or something like that you may not have to recourse to those because while you're having, you're having your home built you can say to the electrician, alright i want x number of power points here. i want x number of power points there and i want x number of power points there. but if you're like me moving to a, a house that's been established for some years you'll probably find there's only a minimum of power points because let's face it over the years the use of electrical apparatus have become more and more hasn't it? mm. you know what with microwaves and electric toasters and things like that you know. and of course in the old days they just weren't available because they weren't on the market. half of them hadn't even been thought of, especially microwaves anyway. i know electric toasters do go back even beyond my years but er okay? portable heaters close to furniture. again we've got the situation where you've got radiated heat. okay? what happens on a cold winter's evening you stand in front of the fire. okay? you're warming yourself aren't you? it's chilly out there tonight mabel isn't it? you know. what happens? what can you feel? you can feel the heat from the fire can't you? doesn't matter whether it's a solid fuel fire, gas fire or electric and this is what we call radiated heat. and if you were silly enough to stand there long enough you'd soon, your skirt, your trousers you'd soon start smelling a little bit. you know? and away you'd go. so again it's the same with putting portable heaters close to the furniture. let's face it we all like comfort on a winter's evening when we're watching the, our favourite programmes on the television and we shove our chairs right up to the fire to get nice and snug. but if we ever leave the room at all, always pull the chair back. okay? a reasonable distance, okay? to make sure that er the furniture is not too close. plugs left switched on. okay? again, very often in this modern days and age, we have to leave certain electrical appliances switched on all the time don't we? the fridge-freezer otherwise you'd get up every morning and you'd have a right mess in your cupboard wouldn't you? in, in your er kitchen. so we have to make sure that again the plugs are in good working order. there's no cracks that would allow er leaks of electricity through. okay? no cracks in the porcelain. the fuse again is correct and not only the fuse but the wiring is in good working order. and this happens with electric irons as well, and another thing make sure your electric iron cable is in good working order. how long is it since you really examined your electric iron when you've used it? on the cable? okay? what happens to it? it frays. it frays. because it's doing this thing all the time isn't it? you know, while you're away ironing you're doing this all the time. up and down the old ironing board. okay. and eventually after a period of time that ins outer insulation will wear down, it will fray and it will break and it will expose the live and the neutral wires until, unfortunately sometimes, it will be a little bit too late. and you will, if you don't end up with a house fire you may end up with nasty burns or even electric shock. so do periodically, either yourself or get your hubby, to have a look and make sure that all your cabling is in good working order, okay? likewise you should never burrow or bury cabling under the carpet because the same thing happens. you lay the axminster carpet on top of the cable, trampling all over it, over a number of years and again the old thing happens, it wears down the outer protective cabling, it breaks down the insulation and then you get a fire situation burning away, smouldering away underneath your carpet because while ever your er electrical appliance is switched on heat is being generated. there's even heat coming from this lamp now. okay? heat is being generated all the time and that's the problem. paraffin heaters and l p g heaters, again are another source of danger, especially l p g heaters. and when you look at l p g, while it's in its canister, okay, it's a liquid but when it meets normal atmospheric temperature and pressure it converts to a gas. okay? you can't see it, sometimes the agents will put a stenching er material in it that you can you can smell it, mm, i can smell gas you know and it's this stenching thing that you can smell, but very rarely can you see it. again if you re rely on l p g heaters as soon as you've got an emp er a, a, a cylinder empty, get it out the way back to your supplier to make sure that you only have it serviced on a one to one basis so you get a one for one swap. okay? how many of you ladies and gentlemen are do it yourself enthusiasts? right. what about glues and solvents? that we use in the home? okay? a lot of the glues and solvents that we use in the home, especially if you're putting lino tiles down or, or carpet tiles, down contain substances that are highly flammable. okay? the material itself is highly flammable and it's heavier than air which means, in chemical, means it drops down to ground level. okay? it doesn't float in the air it drops down to ground level and some years ago, when i was based in ashfield, i had an experience of this. we were called to an explosion and house fire in sutton-in-ashfield and i responded as officer in charge and i pulled up outside, we dealt with the fire and then we began the investigation to find out what had happened. and the story goes, to cut it quite short, two workmen were in this person's house laying carpet tiles in the lounge and they were using this substance that was heavier than air and it was also highly flammable. and of course with it being heavier than air it does tell you it can give a nasty headache, cause drowsiness, etcetera etcetera. so after they'd been using this stuff with no windows open or anything, one of the workmen began to feel a little bit groggy so he said to his mate and open the back door charlie, will you, i'm feeling a bit groggy. okay? so what happened was quick sketch that's the kitchen, that's the cooker. okay? lounge window that's the lounge where the men were working. okay? so his, his colleague went and opened the door to the kitchen from the lounge and opened the back door. the inrush of fresh air came in through the room, circulated, inter mixed with the vapour laden air in the lounge. okay? and of course being on the air current it went on its way back and what was waiting for it here? the pilot light on the gas cooker. and as soon as it hit it, vrroom! it went. fortunately the building suffered more injury than what the men did, thankfully, but obviously of course the building by insurance it would still, it was still a nasty shock for the owner occupier of the house. it cracked the wall down that side and it took out that window put a big crack in there and also in the ceiling. okay? so if you are ever using solvents, okay, in your home, please adhere to the manufacturer's instructions. okay? this has happened in my house with a workman. yeah. and he, he set kitchen on fire. yeah. he lost his eyebrows and most of his hair and the whole house was yeah. okay?. workmen don't guarantee that he is doing it according to the thing because yeah. the central heating could cut in yeah. or the gas boiler yeah. cut in. yeah. and did exactly yeah. the same sort of thing. yeah. we didn't have an explosion but we did have a big fire. yeah. well this, this does an explosion actually rather than a yeah. little fire but there's enough damage from the explosion to d do the job. but as the gentlemen there he's got firsthand experience. yeah? erm paint is now solvent based or s i know it's gonna be phased out but basically it's solvent based. yeah. a are they flammable? they're not as flammable as, as such. they're, when you're talking about the normal household gloss, yes it is flammable but it's not a, nowhere near as flammable as your cellulose thinners that you spray your car with and things like that, your touch up sprays, because it doesn't contain the amount of petroleum adhesive er additive i should say, in the er in its mixture as does er a and are they heavier than air ones? or, or or are they are heavier than air and again if you follow the manufacturer's instructions, if it says when using this paint allow adequate ventilation yes. then you're okay. you see i mean i had an uncle, he's passed on now, and he was an avid pipe-smoker. okay? and i've seen him, he's made me cringe, he used to have a cigar cigarette lighter and he used to fill it with this l p g stuff. and i've seen him standing ope in front of the open fire with his back to the fire going like that and you can see the heat shimmer stuff coming off and you know it's the l p g. i used to say uncle i don't lie, you know you're do oh i've been doing it for years you all that sort of thing you know . you couldn't get him to alter his ways. but it's just one of those things. if you're using these substances do please be careful but not only about do it yourself er er enthusiasts. what about the normal everyday consumer goods we buy? hair lacquer? underarm deodorant to make us smell nice when we're going out to a party? what does it say on the canister? pressurized. keep away from heat. pressurized, keep away from any source, direct sunlight. because, again, the canisters are pressurized. the substance whether it be hairspray or whatever it is, is put in under pressure. okay? and the seams of the canister are only designed to withstand a certain amount of pressure. once that pressure is exceeded, bang! it will go just like a bomb. and that's why we strongly recommend, and the environmental health people strongly recommend, you never shove them in the garden refuse. when you're doing your annual burn out when you're burning all the weeds and you might think oh i'll get rid of this. and everything used to go on the old garden bonfires didn't it, in the past? okay? and very often people stick one of these canisters in the er in the old garden bonfire, alright? and of course when it got heated it used to blow and it used to blow all the burning debris all over. well if your next door neighbour's got the window open the burning debris lands on her bed or his bed and away you've got a fire situation, okay? because these canisters when they do blow they can spread debris quite some considerable distances. okay? so whenever you're er tt using er these type of things do be careful. i mean if i was to s stand here and tell you that self-raising flour is classed as an x one, as a class one explosive dust your wife would never make any, an apple pie again in her life. but i'm not gonna tell you that. okay? but it is and that's why in flour mills they have blast suppression built in and everything else. but the reason being that er flour and stuff is a class one dust is because if you imagine a granule of flour. it's surrounded by a large volume of air isn't it? and the flame propagation is so rapid it's consumed that it just blows. okay? so that's why, again, you have to be careful with most of our domestic er things that we have er in our homes. again poor servicing of electric appliances. if you have electrical appliances i know it's gonna cost you a few pence, or probably even a few pounds these days, do make sure that your electrical appliances are serviced properly and correctly. then you should be reasonably safe. gas central heating boilers, if the ignition doesn't ignite fast enough you get a build up and that can go with an interesting bang. yes it can. yes it can. so everything we've got in our home, the old gas central heating and that's why very often there's a reminder in your annual winter's er bill that you get. the one that's the biggest one of the year they will say when's the last time you had your er gas boiler serviced? is it ready for doing? would you like to take effectively a three star, four star, one star er servicing? okay? i think it's well wor er well worth your while taking er note of these things. okay? let's have a look on a little bit then. danger from fire in the home, the facts. approximately there are a least sixty thousand fires a year. approximately seven hundred deaths a year. seven thousand injuries and many of these could be avoided if we will only take reasonable and proper precautions that we should do. take advice, if you've got any doubt each old time fire station ha in this county, has a fire safety division attached to it and there are usually two officers on duty, okay? unless they're out carrying out their inspections but at least the administrator's there, she will help all she possibly can in the absence of the fire safety officer. if you've got any doubts get in touch with your local fire safety officer and he will come along and er waylay any problems that you may have and he will indeed er give you the best of advice that's available. okay? are they facts for nottinghamshire? those are for nottinghamshire, yeah. yeah. if you're from derbyshire or leicestershire then in your local telephone directory er do you mean the fire or these numbers? those numbers. no these numbers are basically nationally at the moment. but unfortunately it's on the increase mm. and as we are all aware i, i feel sure for there being in the you've been, in that it is unlawful to leave a child alone in the house under the age of twelve years. cos if anything happens to that child especially in a fire situation you are liable to criminal er tt etcetera. ah in fact there's a case in london where they've just recently charged a mother, where the firemen were called to a house fire over the weekend and erm during the, putting the fire out they discovered a child's body er i on the settee. er apparently she was a four year old er they searched for the mother, they found the mother and i understand now that the mother's been charged with murder. so whether she'd committed the act before and er tried to cover it up i don't know, cos obviously it's subject to sub judice at the moment until they've got the, everything in the outcome. but that's the latest thing i've heard of on the one anyway. yeah. how can we protect our homes then? okay. we've gone along to lengths of making sure that all our electrical appliances are in good working order. we switch everything off at night that's reasonable to switch off, obviously we're leaving the fridge and freezer on and the electric clock working. okay. we close all the doors at night. what else can do to protect our homes? what should we be thinking of doing? smoke alarms. smoke alarm. how many of you got smoke alarms? quite a few of you. good. okay? and we should also have a fire escape plan. okay? just to s talk a little bit on the smoke alarms and then we'll go into the video cos i i'm mindful of the time. okay? heat, two types of smoke detector you get in the home, heat and smoke. okay? heat reacting increase in temperatures and smoke reacts to smoke and fumes. okay? domestic smoke alarms are basically two types. the ionization type and in this in the centre of the core of the er detector is er a small chamber and any particle or substance getting in that chamber is ionized by a small radioactive source. okay? but don't worry about the radioactive source it's not gonna do you any harm whatsoever. you're not going to suddenly turn green and walk about like that you know. okay? it ionizes, causes the current to be completed and then that sets off the alarm. okay? and the optical type it contains this photoelectric cell which triggers alarm when the beam is disturbed by smoke particles. so very often you'll see it on these erm infra red things in er burglar alarm systems. where you can see a little red light, neon, going in one corner and a reflecting light in the opposite corner. and anything that goes in between those disturbs the beam and it causes an electric current to sound the alarm and it's the same thing that happens with the er detectors. okay? what's the reaction factor? well let's, just let's have a little look. okay? the ionaz ionization detector, often a little bit quicker to react to a hot blazing type of fire such as your chip pan. okay? the optical detector ideal to react to smouldering type of fire,a example, a cigarette fallen down the side of the er sofa. some detectors incorporate the two types in a single unit to give you a better performance. okay? but they are both apt in th they'll do and they'll both do the job. so don't start getting yourself worried well, have i got an ionization or have i got an op an optical one. the only thing you have to bear in mind is that if you have a smoke detector that conforms to the british standard kite-mark, british standard five four five part one, that'll be quite sufficient. but what should we do to ensure that our smoke detector is working properly? test it. test it. yeah. test it on a weekly basis. okay? but what also should be do? cook fish. cook fish. yes. yes. or grill them. that goes off when we yes. cook fish. always. yeah yeah. will do. yeah. mine always goes off whenever i'm grilling anything at all. yeah. mm. yeah. yes. you will find they are very very susceptible and that's the object of the exercise. that's why they are so keen. and that's why in, in buildings, industrial and commercial buildings where we put heat and smoke detectors in for the protection of life and that's why you put it in your homes. erm it is because they are so acute, the least little whiff and they're away. okay? you must also remember, ladies and gentlemen, to change the battery at least once a year. or especially when you start getting the low pip pip pip about every thirty seconds. okay? or be aware that the pips could happen when is it on, on you're on holiday. pardon? or be aware that the pips in our case happened when we were on holiday. yes. mm. mm. it cold doesn't it? can trigger them off. this mm. has happened to us several times. been away at yeah. sometimes can get a cold winter, in the winter. yeah. and we've come back or in fact yeah. our son had been in to check the house yeah. and the thing was going so taken the battery out. yeah. and he thought the battery you know was running down but in fact it wasn't mm. it, it's the cold. yeah. sometimes but you can get those a little bit offset with temperature. yeah. that will affect them b this happens every time doesn't it? yeah. yeah. sometimes you will get a er a little bit offset with temperature but it's only a minute thing. i'd rather have that than nothing at yeah. all. yeah. it's cold that's affecting the battery. yeah. and if it and if, if instead of putting the ordinary zinc and, and carbon battery in you put a nicad battery in, it'll stop it doing that. okay? so right. try that. expert advice there. okay? right. the other thing is ladies and gentlemen, i don't know whether you know or not, but it is now, if you're having a new home built, fresh build as we call it, okay? but it's now, in order to comply with the building regulations nineteen ninety two, it is mandatory for you to have an electrically operated smoke detection system in your home. so if you are thinking, cos you are now finishing work and you're going to retire somewhere nice. okay? in this country anyway at least, in the u k and you're having a new dream cottage built, okay, to your needs and satisfaction, okay? please remember that in order to conform to the current building regulations it is now mandatory to have a proper er electrically mains operated smoke alarm system installed in the home. otherwise the tt building will have deemed to not comply to b one of the building regulations which i don't want to go into too much detail but basically what it is that with effect from nineteen ninety one the smoke alarm smoke detector bill came into er operation and it was brought in into the nineteen ninety two building regulations when they were amended from the nineteen eighty five regulations that states now any new build homes shall have and be fitted with a mains operated, with battery backup, smoke detection system . and in fact in some parts of the country there have been experiments tested with having sprinkler system fitted into the home. how long do okay? the batteries last if the mains are off while you're away? about er twenty four to thirty six hours. because part of the condition of your insurance policy in some cases, if you're away more than x number of days, the mains should be switched off. yeah. yeah. that's something obviously you go abroad for yeah you'd a month. you'd take with your insurance company to make sure you were still covered if anything untoward happened while, you know. but er normally your battery on a mains system will last forty eight t thirty six to forty eight hours. that's thirty six to yeah. forty eight hours worth of noise? no. it's thirty six to forty eight hours of standby cover. cover. so if your mains goes off through an electrical storm or something like that or your power is cut off because the e the m e b is digging the road up down and they say that your electric will be off for the next yeah. x number of hours then your battery will take over and it will operate the fire al your domestic system for a period of thirty six to forty eight hours. what about the batteries in a battery operated one then? how long do they last? well in the normal battery operated one they for years. they're not affected at all. they wi they will last at least twelve months. ah. yeah. it does seem self-defeating if one authority requires you to have a mains operated system and another authority says turn off electricity if you're going away. and the gas and the water. well yeah. well yes. what it is le let's just sort of get things, as i say in a new build situation if you were having a new house built the building authority anywhere in the u k, even in scotland and northern ireland, will require you to have a built in smoke detector system, mains with battery. obviously once a building has been built and you've got that in it's under you then to maintain it. okay? if you are going away on holiday like i go away on holiday and probably some your colleagues and you're going abroad for two three weeks, it makes commonsense to try and protect your home as soon as you possibly, as much as you can by isolating the risk. so the first thing you do is turn off your gas. you turn off your water and you turn off your electric. because there's nobody going to, unless you've got somebody watching your house, unless you get a, an enforced entry or, or unlawful entry into your home, nothing's gonna happen because you know alright you've left, you've your fridge and freezer switched on. okay? so you've got to have your mains for your fridge-freezer haven't you? basically? mm. so you're gonna leave your, your mains on anyway for fridge-freezer. so there's no great problem really. providing you're, you are correctly fused and your wires are okay then no problem. i i can't see er you're gonna have any particular problem with your insurance company cos you've got to leave your fridge-freezer switched on haven't you? mm. otherwise when you come back from a month in malaya or singapore or wherever you've been you know or matlock whichever takes your fancy, you're gonna have a right mess in your kitchen aren't you? yeah. so if i were you i would just have a word with your insurance company and make sure that everything's okay but you're obviously, they must know that you've got to leave your er fridge-freezer switched on, so you've got to have your mains electrics on. okay? are you alright on that? or have you got a i wouldn't trust anything this government does so well it's not, it's not the government that's doing it anyway. it's the yeah. okay? any questions ladies and gentlemen? before we se now hopefully it should bring us to about four o'clock. now this video although it's american based, ignore that fact that they've got tower block apartments, and that'll mean we've got high-rise buildings i in the city of nottingham and places like that. okay? but try and look at the fundamental basis of what they're trying to put over to you on the video, okay? that's the main thing and then if you've got any questions afterwards hopefully we'll still have time to go through a few questions. okay? it is essential that we plan to get out alive, ladies and gentlemen. okay? so if you have a if you live in er er a two-storey house, okay? make sure that all r eve even if you're in a bungalow, make sure that all your doors are closed at night, okay? get everybody, preferably, into the front of the house in the bedroom upstairs, get some clothing or some packing, bedding at the base of the door to stop the smoke filtering through the bottom of the door okay? go to the window shout and make it, make your plight known to your neighbours because normally there's somebody passing, policeman on his beat or somebody who'll make your plight known. okay? if it becomes necessary the now, a slight apology to make. this, things aren't going very well for me today. er, i missed the train, the video thing wouldn't work when i showed my film lunchtime and er, the book that had to read, er, unfortunately, is not in the library, so er, the le let me explain the background to this. in previous years i haven't had a class on the and i thought i had one this year as an experiment and er, pardon me just a second hello yes, that was a little annoying to say the least, cos those students have come in specially for that, yeah,yeah yeah yeah yeah right oh dear right certainly not well, would it be easier to show them in my office, that's seven, seven, seven? well, i could fit most of them in, i'm currently getting in about twelve, ten or twelve, i could fit them in. alright, let's do that. could we, could we have it from next tuesday in my room? that's seven, seven, seven. yeah, and you could perhaps let me, let me have erm, let me have one of those little ones. perhaps i could keep it, could i? right, okay yes, sure, sure, sure. well, shall we have it in my room for next week? thanks a lot. bye . this audio visual, ah i apologize for that. sorry, this will be printing for a while. it's just my new book. i'm sorry. you'll just have to put up with the printer chugging away. as i was saying, yes, er erm, i put it down, erm are you gonna tell us the history of the book, or? yeah. there is a bit of right, okay. well, let's wait and hear wh what says, he'll probably explain to you the history of why it is like this. but as i said, i do apologize. there was a copy in the library at one stage, although not listed under it was under , but i now see that when the other day i looked erm, according to er, there isn't even anything under . did you look under too? yeah right, right so i'm very sorry. i won't do it again next year. we won't have a class on that's just somebody that republishes the book. but erm, anyway er, tell us what you made of it and we'll take it from there, i think. well, the book was er published in the early nineteen, well, it was written in the early nineteen thirties but er, it wasn't actually published until nineteen sixty seven. erm, for instance idealistic man primarily, wilson, president of the united states. so basically, subject given account of er wilson's life and his personality. in context the psychoanalysis in order to explain erm wilson's actions and er, attitudes in the pres presidency of the united states during the first world war, basically con concentrates on erm . despite highlighting er wilson's intellectual and physical achievements, for instance, he er wrote a very er, well respected book called con congressional government in his earlier cabinet career, and also he initiated domestic reforms , the book is er generally quite scornful, reporting character. especially the neurosis he suffered from erm, throughout his life on which the his presidential and political career. the main argument put forward by er, er, was that er was that wilson suffered as an adult, because of the over oppressed rage he, oppressed rage he possessed, which was directed towards his father. as a child, wilson was er, regularly subjected to the darkness father and criticized and lectured the young wilson. however, instead of er releasing and dealing with his rage, wilson er instead chose to strongly identify with his father, erm argued er wilson never grew beyond his father identification, because the situation whereby er wilson was full of, of the conviction that his er mission in life was somehow divided. in identifying with what he regarded as his father, wilson thought that he would er emerge from the war as a saviour to the world, so to speak. two went further in an effort to oppress his rage against his father, and to avoid a highly threatening career situation. wilson identified with his father, to the extent of wanting to have genital, genital contact with him, since wilson saw his father as the author of all his skills, his strength and all that he'd been grateful for . this was based on apparently wrote to obtain er, or basically to obtain. this is arguably supported by the close contact of the relationship wilson had with his father, and wilson's deeply held religious conviction, which he espoused in his presidency. however, this subconsciously held conflict with his father in subsequent over identification with er led wilson to be somewhat stubborn,perhaps even complicational as a, as you know, as presidency of the united states, which were, were often directed towards or often only minor details of his work, but he wouldn't he wouldn't actually range them towards say, any major . er, accompanying this accompanying this frequently not himself, which it occurred throughout his life, through his childhood as well, and his general er sustained willpower which was highlighted by frequent illnesses, especially in his er president of the university, where wilson suffered defeats and conflicts and transfer of reform of rebuilding the university, and also we see there er back part of his life a wilson of his own er, seem to direct some of his rage against er, a coloured colleague of his, a . graham argued that all this is indicative of a person who hasn't grown, fully grown out of his childhood worries, problems, especially the er, he hasn't actually dealt with the true feelings that he had towards his father, and who instead chose to vent his rage on others and political career, which resulted in wilson being, er well, losing some of his rationality, which led to his poor performance in er negotiating and gaining acceptance of the treaty of after world war one. erm, apparently that's what the trouble with the ratifying in congress that led him erm,some degree to another centre in massachusetts. erm, and this also explains in part, why he er complains made by-rules and all concerned what was into europe, did not materialize. er, i think if you're gonna try and erm, explain you know, try and assess the validity of the book. agree or ask yourselves why you agree. tell us about various reasons, not just study of value of the great of the greatest value there. it seems freud and perhaps even wanted to er, vent their anger on wilson, because of his failures concerning the war and its aftermath. immediately after the war, when bullett first approached freud er, with the idea of writing the book, freud was apparently feeling very depressed, and er, he was savagely critical of his own work, and er, because he had little access to patients during the war, he generally felt quite down and also by presenting written for him, all he would need to wr all he would need to write, and according to er,other people, perhaps he was eating, he was receiving just sort of waiting to die. whether that's er,i'm not too sure. erm, anyway, this was when bullett actually first approached freud ninetee nineteen hundred and twenty. the disappointment with wilson felt like freud must have sort of lingered for quite a long time, cos it was not for eight years that he actually ventured on . this was highlighting the fact, that although, er, freud thought psychoanalytic should be used in a neutral nerve and not used for any active aggression, an exception seemed to be made with woodrow wilson. although some may be quick to say that the vast majority of the book was actually written by bullett, and not by freud, no less than the actual intellectual framework of the book apparently seems to have been due to freud's input, er, freud certainly was psychoanalytically trained, in any, in any sense of the word. er, perhaps the whole project could also be attributed, mainly i think, to freud's desire to try and keep open the er, the er, analytic publishing house, which he founded in and which er, basically was kept together financially from the er, forwarded, forwarded er, royalties which bullett sent from america. er, the book has been very heavily attacked by contemporary writers even mentioned passing for the . complaints have been made, for instance, by erm, er,. the er, book is based on an inaccurate and sometimes even fabricated evidence, due probably to the er, rather idealistic er, excitable ambitious er bullett, rather than the peaceful like of freud. nevertheless, evidence er, was dealt with by our assorted version parent. much due to the influence of freud, cos of course, bullett wasn't a . contemporary studies of wilson by, for example, or perhaps even are apparently based much more on fragmented material than bullett and freud, freud would allow. i can't really clarify that . erm, for example, it appears that freud and bullett er, misinterpreted wilson, especially as regards to the nature of his father. for example, argues that wilson did not have any sort of homosexual likeness for his father. but that wilson longed for a psychic union with fantasy, fantasy father. so that er, woodrow could experience a full sense of self, to actually relate back to his himself, which er, wilson er, experienced only as a child. his childhood. er, you have a sexualization of such a long period, wilson, er, didn't seem to have, sort of, being recorded to his sexual fantasies of that nature. although there is er a general agreement that wo situations were, were re really more complicated,in the wilson family, er,wil erm, wilson actually certainly loved his father, his er his mother an and his er father. er,wi wilson, er, did not seem to allow his father's wit and criticism to get him as much as freud had er, suggested. er, certainly evidence seems to suggest that a very genuine and close relationship developed with his father. for ex for instance, they er, often confided in one another , usually when they to see what they actually er share each other 's deepest thoughts, and this continued throughout later life, it could be argued bu but it continued throughout later life and what they, they often communicated by er, by letter. it could be argued from this, that er, wilson's father began to identify more of his son rather than the other way round. especially as wilson's academic career flourished, and he er, and he wrote to his father less and less. so of er, resulted in a rather er, sad feeling in his father, the thought that actually his son was starting you started to by his son. argues that er, wilson suffered from strokes throughout his life,not even emotionally recorded due his psychological condition. the reason why this occurred er erm, the reason why this occurred was not due to some sort of er, due to emotional problems that he suffered within these repressed relations with his son. erm, and also the reason why wilson could not actually read until the age of eleven was not due to the emotional er, problems of his father, it was due to a sort of a form of dyslexic er,th there's a hell of a lot of debate about this, er, all these things just what er, einstein is er, criticizing. but er,sad sadly there's er, evidence that sh show that if there is a dyslexic. erm, however, it maintains that er, freud could not have er, known about this, although it seems to invalidate if they are correct . erm, if the move on the was psychoanalytic issue, er despite the book being generally regarded as an embarrassment to psychoanalytic, is somewhat non . it er, has initiated others to demonstrate how the use of a psychoanalytic science for the actions of upstanding, public, historical figures. biographical studies can be found on a variety of historical people, including various artists or politicians. but this simply underlines a point that psychoanalysis is, by the very nature biographical, thus historical point, er, historical methods to trace one's actions and reports in the presents, present er, relation to those who they've experienced in the past. if your psychoanalysis is reports, and not just the actions, of it can be a, used as arguments to er, allow this story to emphasise what the human ages evolved at specific suicide of men, erm, goes on to show examples of his erm, he actually claimed to have used this as a sort of process of identification of even fantasizing, in order to try and er demonstrate how er, i think it was hadrian's wall was built, try to identify with engineers and architects who built hadrian's wall, in order to try and work out what the actual function of the wall was. it wasn't, it wasn't regarded, it was regarded by a positivistic er,as just being er a big wall to stop barbarians er, attacking . people have said he er, they seem to think, that he was more, he was more the sort of territorially divide sheriff sort of er, league of division between er, the two lands, and he was also a sort of lookout post. erm, this er, again, try to be right be er try to understand the mind,instead of just, just looking at the harsh facts, the hard cold facts and trying from there. so, in effect, there's a subjective animal which can be very useful when trying to explain a glimpse, for example, employed for example the total i e prime and er, also in the psychological . these books also extend beyond a biographical compass of the history, by examining the development of insecurities in society, like as in the future of civilian. and also the relationship between the leaders and the masses in history, er, between the different groups er and then comparing the relations between these masses and different groups and different parts of history. er, and it can be also er, also er, course in civilizations in history and trace in theory selection in society. er, psychoanalysis is important, because it acts as a realis as a realistic er, dimension to historical analysis. there is a tendency to try and lo er, continually adjust the plain hard facts, without recognizing that they are, they are in fact socially constructed. that's the objective. it must be supplemented with the subject. for allowing ourselves to look at the report and find the actions, and not just the actions themselves. erm, so in this, so in times of the woodrow wilson or perhaps freud er, took the subject too, too far. allow his own feelings and thoughts just to run away with him, which later er, in rather er, a nasty very er, made some very disparaging remarks of the family. but despite the er, rather individualistic nature of the context used there's enough flexibility and openness within the subject content, to say . the psychoanalysis can be used to a limited extent, despite more collective, historical roles er, within disagreed over conflicts in people, or perhaps you say that all the time. erm, going back to the subjective erm, psychoanalysis introduces erm, no, that's the subject erm, psychoanalysis introduces. also historians themselves, historians themselves can't actually completely stand outside the events they are actually studying. i mean,th th they're just moving away from the issue, because it it's using a psychoanalytic stories. try to give a psychoanaly psychoanalytic study issue. erm, can you keep with me? the er, the very important experiences of this story were never to be received into his work. or our work. and would be useless the er, content and electrons. i suppose er, suppose that, suppose that er, main department store other contents from other dimensions. psychological content, but again, in that content, in that er, particular content, psychoanalytical context can be useful. well done,w well done , excellent, i mean. although as i said, it was perhaps a mistake, erm, both classes produced excellent papers, that th it was a first class paper, in the other class and so was yours. didn't read the book. where did you get all that material from then? erm, books on psycho history publish yours. right,. oh, you went through all the psycho history books? yeah, well done. erm, well it's a great achievement. i think that given that you were er, you couldn't find the basic book that you were expected to read, i thought you, you gave an excellent account of it, i mean, if you hadn't told us that you hadn't got the book, i don't think we would have guessed, would we? you would've got away with that one. but erm, no, absolutely first rate. well done. i think you can, you can really erm, you can really be proud of yourself on that. and erm well, what do other people think, i mean what, i suppose no one else began to look at it either. i will be giving a lecture on it, so i'll have my say about it. erm, has anybody looked at any of the other books, like for example, the one on ? did you? i didn't have time. has anybody got the time? i'll tell you the reason why i did this. erm, in a way this was a bit provocative. what i what i thought was, well let's have erm, woodrow wilson, okay, as you said at the beginning of the book, freud admits that he didn't like wilson, and that he felt betrayed by wilson, like a lot of people in central europe did i suppose, because you know, wilson came over erm, with fourteen points as the saviour of the world, and went away leaving with a piece of . and freud and a lot of other german speaking people, thought that he had let them down, because he didn't have the political goodness. erm, and so freud at the beginning says that he er, he, he had a personal dislike of er wilson, and resented him for what he had done and held him responsible for the subsequent disasters. so, so freud makes no bones about it. erm, the book by leo who's er labour, was a labour m p, no longer er keen collection reports. erm, on , i put in because it was the worst example i could find of the abuse of psychoanalysis for destroying somebody's personality, personality assassination by, by er a psychoanalysis. you could imagine what it's like. i mean, erm, if you didn't know it was meant to be serious, you might think it was a great send off of psychoanalysis, you know. kind of make you hoot with laughter half the time, erm, and the contrast with that is the point, which i don't know whether any of you has looked at, of course, called gandhi's truth. well, as you might tell from the title, gandhi's truth is the exact opposite to book, because it idealizes gandhi, it makes a, a kind of psychoanalytic behaviourography, you know as if gandhi was some er, great great kind of saint. despite the fact that gandhi one would have thought provided rich material for psychoanalysts, like going to bed with his erm, nieces and his lady doctor erm, and naked and claiming that this was a specific exercise, erm. nice work if you can get it. erm, and so on, so, so, so this was the, this was the, er this is what i was trying to do, try and contrast the use of psychoanalysis in, in biography, from character assassination on one hand, to hagiography at the other, and with freud's woodrow wilson somewhere in, in between , but perhaps nearer the character assassination end, because erm, neither of them, er neither of the authors were, really had, had much of a brief of woodrow wilson. and, and really it was just as experiment, and erm, the reason i put it in was, i thought, well, you know, this is, this is an ignored book, and as you, as you found to your cost, it's actually hard to come by, harder to come by than i expected. it's out of print. yeah, it's out of print, and erm, but i though it raised interesting issues, anyway. i mean did other people think that? and what kind of issues did you think it does raise? it's not worth psychoanalysis right, now as mentioned, there's a whole literature on this course,ps psycho-history, isn't there? they've even got their own journal. have you, have you read any of this stuff,? erm, this is, this is what this school of thought tries to do. in the past i used to have a, a class on psycho- history, and i dropped it, and one of the reasons why i dropped it was, the lit a lot of the literary was very poor quality, for a start, and erm, people, er, students, er got that too, and i couldn't really blame them. and, er, the other problem with it is, you really have to know quite a lot about history, or biography to really to really get into. i think you found that with wilson there was one chapter in the book, i read it in the . all the pages in biography . five or six pages instant analysis and it hardly no. absolutely, so two novels if yo i hope you, i suppose you could have a whole course in psycho-history, if you really put into it enough, but for just one class, i thought it was too much to ask students to attend, to try and have to get into psycho-history, so i haven't erm, done very much of it, and this, my excuse here really was, well freud did write a book called woodrow wilson. it is touching on the social sciences in the sense that woodrow wilson was an important political figure, and there is an historical dimension. so that was my excuse, for, for, for bringing it in. but as says, i mean it raises er, a fundamental issue, which is, is psychoanalysis or, psycho, are psycho insights applicable to for example history or biology, and this is the issue, isn't it? what do people think that? is it just, is it, is it, is it just trivializing, to think, to talk about, for example, woodrow wilson's childhood? i mean, does anybody think that's a trivial approach to history? i mean do you think so? yeah. do everybody agree with that? you tell it yes, of course, erm the point has to be made, that bullett, unlike contemporary erm, biographers of er wilson, those people you mentioned, actually knew wilson, and an you know, being his administration on that man as it were , and apparently bullett had a lot a first-hand erm, biographical data, didn't he, according to the book? also tended towards to make a judgment of him, mm. i think right. right, and the background to that of course is, for those of you who may not know, bullett was i suppose a more junior person in the state department, when he went to europe with woodrow wilson in nineteen eighteen, and nineteen whenever it was for a peace conference, and bullett was the only one of the american delegation who resigned and confronted wilson and said, look, you've gone back on the fourteen points, you're not doing what you said you would do. how can you go on with this, and bullett was the only one of them who resigned and went home. and er, later of course, he became the american ambassador of vienna, so freud met him, but so, so, bullett had a personal stake in this, but i must admit, er my own view was, was rather to admire bullett for his stand, because it's a rare politician who stands up and says look, you know, we've been there, having made promises, we've broken all of them, and we ought to resign, or you ought to resign. he told wilson. and, and he said, you know, if you aren't going to resign, i certainly am. and he did. so erm, it's quite true that bullett had a personal axe to grind, i think it was a rather justified axe. but erm, it er, that fact remains, he did nail wilson. he was at the conference, and a lot of the book, if you read the book, is concerned with what actually happened at the conference, and basically, the basic problem with the, the book tries to look at, and this is where we, we get back to question of the childhood days. why couldn't wilson stand up to the allies, why couldn't had stand up to clements or lloyd george, in particular? they seem to have bullied him and made him er, make concessions, and the question that freud and bullett constantly ask is, why did wilson make these concessions, especially since his position was already defined before he came to europe, you know he already laid down the fourteen points, and sold it to the american people. and then he came to europe and, and really, let it all go. and their answer of course is, look, here was erm, there's no political or historical reason, because wilson had all the cards in his hand. the, admittedly the french and the british were on the right side, they won the war, but france er was er battered in the war, lost an awful lot of people, it's a common and although this country, although, you know, fighting in britain, the er, british economy was also badly damaged. we were borrowing money from the americans to keep going, and er, we certainly weren't in any shape to dictate the terms of the peace to the americans. and er, so freud and bullett say, look if wilson had all the power at the time, and some ways the world in nineteen eighty to twenty was a bit like what it is today, after the collapse of the soviet union, really, you really only got one superpower. if, if the americans had all the power, why did woodrow wilson just sell out to the allies? so, bullett and freud conclude, well, it has to be something to do with him personally. and their conclusion is, he couldn't stand up to, to lloyd george in and the reason was these were strong, erm, male leaders, and wilson, when it came to being with men, er, was weak, and the question asked is, why was he weak in dealing with men? and the answer is, well, if you look at his relationship with his father, er, he was very overawed by his father, he was very passive and submissive towards his father. and so there they, they claim that his childhood was relevant, because of this character defect in, in wilson, his inability to stand up to strong men. even though objectively, he had all the strength on his side, and if he'd only stubbornly insisted, the allies would have had to accept the fourteen points, because there was no way that they just didn't have any erm, any clout really when when finally settled in peace. wilson could almost have dictated it to them, and perhaps another man would have. so this is their justification for bringing in the childhood. what do you think of that remark? is that legitimate, do you think, or not? yeah, i think it is. erm you have, when you see the statesmen well, what about the view, let me kind of play devil's advocate here against freud and bullett. what about the view? that in history, the important things of economic, er historical, social forces which transcend any individual. what about that view, that the individual person, even a powerful one, like the president of the united states, doesn't really count, compared with economic social geo-political forces, what about that argument?, how does that . is that the kind of argument that carries any weight with you? erm, i can tell you what the other to look at the personality things like that right, right. it seems, you know, because freud didn't actually analyze just to make a generalization about things he knew about some of the people. yes. and that sort of thing counts for what yes, that's that's, let me see who that is? hi. well, that's his office there. he's not there now. i don't know. have a word with his secretary. erm, the, yes, i mean, this is a big problem, isn't it? the question is, as you rightly say, in psychoanalysis, the analyst usually has a vast amount much more than people normally realize, i mean, i recall from my own analysis, and mean i was going between two and four times a week erm, for an hour each time and it was a good six months before she would make any interpretations, and i used to get very frustrated, you know, i used to say things like, well, what do you think of this, miss , you know. what do you think of that, and she would say, well, it's too early, or we don't know yet. you know, and she would constantly say that, and before six months, there weren't any interpretations at all. then when interpretations did come, particularly if i disputed them, then it would be, she would be ready with the information. she would say, there, there's the of that dream, or those associations, with this you did. there was all that, and so on, and she would be ready with it, and there was a lot of material there. the problem, as you rightly say, with this kind of secondhand announcers, that how do you know if you've got enough material, and that it's right? also, if you actually read the book, there is quite a lot of material in the book, it's quite a big book in some ways, and er, the material on wilson's childhood and so on, erm, is pretty detailed. i mean there is quite a lot seems to be known about wilson, and he himself, erm, wrote a lot in enormous correspondence and so on, and many of the points they make, are erm, are fairly well validated. why, for example, one of the, the points that freud's book makes, is er when wilson was confronted with a conflict, particularly with a stronger male, like an elder brother, or his father, he would retreat into speech making, and apparently he used to have a barn where he did it, and he used to go and give speeches in the barn. he used to speak to the hay, as it were, and he would do this, er, rather compulsively. this kind of speech making. and of course, when he was a man, he was famous for his speeches, apparently, he was a great, was a great waffler, you know, it was the age of wafflers, i suppose. erm, we heard a great, he was a great erm,refratition so when freud and bullett say, look, woodrow wilson was a great refratition and you can see him doing this in his childhood. there is actual evidence that he did do it in his childhood, and th so they're not erm, they're kind of building everything on a single sentence like leo does, you know, amazingly enough, leo 's book starts with entry of who's who in a single phrase, where she calls herself daughter of, her father. doesn't mention her mother, and leo 's whole thesis about was built on this single phrase in who's who. words, some future researched, that the printer here, missed that bit, you know, she should have said, and her mother's name, but her mother's got missed out on the proofs or something, i don't, this is the kind of thing that happens, of course. leo 's entire book will collapse, er, as, as, as perhaps it should. being a writer of course, being the data problem, er, this is a big problem in psychoanalysis, because whereas erm, in an analysis, the analyst has er hundreds or probably thousands of hours' data from the pre-associations of the patient, at the end. the er, that kind of thing is never published, and or even, of course, it can't be published normally, and the result is that when analysts draw conclusions based on this very confidential data, or who were talking vastly extent. it, it's very very difficult to, to validate perhaps erm, publicly. yeah. making explanations the other way round. they are theory that you made a mistake, and you've got to somehow explain that they are they are, they're starting with the end result, and of course in this particular book, they're, what they're starting with really, wasn't a general psychological biography of wilson, so much has, the problem, why did wilson give everything away in the conference? that . they work backwards as, as, as you rightly say. the, the, the best defence you could make of that, if you wanted to make a defence of it, would be that in the nineteen twenties and thirties as we've been seeing in the lectures, i'll be saying a bit more about that some psychoanalyse was, was developing. it's analysis of the egos as, as we've been seeing, in analysis was really all, all it could do at the beginning, after the first world war, shall we say. breaking point. after the first world war, ego analysis was developing. now one of the consequences that ego analysis was, analysts began to feel confident that they could analyze the defences of the ego, as well as what the ego repressed as a result of its defences. as a result of that, you could examine a defensive structure, and work out why it existed. for example, supposing you erm, this, this, this was used principally in child analysis, which didn't exist before the first world war, it was developed afterwards. the problem with child analysis is, children won't be associated, that can be made to free associate. i mean, don't ask me to explain it's technical and so it's a very technical matter of ego psychology that you must accept . they can't be induced to do it. and anyway, they don't have the motives. children are always for analysis, usually by their parents, they don't usually come of their . so the analysts found they couldn't use free association with children. what they could use, was defence analysis. so for example, if you saw a child, who was pathologically independent, wouldn't form emotional attachments or dependencies on other people of the way the child wanted it. the analyst might conclude, well why is this defence structure excessive independence present in this child? a good suggestion might be, in the past this child has suffered a loss of some figure it was dependent on, and has compensated by becoming highly independent. this was a common finding, and freud often found this in all children during the war. some of them compensated by becoming highly independent in the end. so what you could do, you could see the defence, and then from that you could work backwards, to the motive of the defence. so, perhaps the reason is the loss of a love object, and then of course if you found there was a in fact a loss of a love, love object, then you might to see in greater detail, how this whole thing came about. particularly if you discover that that child didn't have a bad characteristic in their in their ego before this event occurred, and so on. so that kind of thing made analysts think that they could go on more than just free associations, they could look at a person's character, as it were. the structure of ego defences, and then draw conclusions. and really, you see, that's what freud and bullett are doing in this book. they're looking at wilson's character, which was quite a, a peculiar one, in both senses of the word, and not just peculiar in the sense of, of, you obviously need to him a peculiar sense of kind of funny, funny peculiar. and they try to work backwards, as you rightly say, to his childhood, to explain why, and, and of course they felt that their explanation, explained the favour of conflicts, because the whole thing was here was a man with an almighty father. who saw himself as jesus, really, and although jesus came to save the world, he saved the world in a rather masochistic manner, by getting crucified. well, that's exactly what happened to woodrow wilson. he came to save the world in nineteen eighteen, but he got crucified by clements or lloyd george. they made mincemeat of fourteen points. and er, so it's, it's an attempt to work backwards, but it has a certain justification in analytic technique. but of course, as you and er, er er, rightly said, in an analysis you would always be able to confirm these interpretations from the patient, because in the end, of course , psychoanalysis is done by the patient, the analyst doesn't do it. the analyst normally just helps. in the end, the analysis is gonna occur, it's the patient who, who really doesn't analyze their ego comes to grips with the unconscious. of course, in a book you can't handle them, and you can't handle them when the subject is dead. so that will, corroborating dimension of psychoanalysis, what the patient does for himself and cannot possibly count, and as you rightly say, this leaves analytic biography erm, in a, in a kind of limbo. which is, i really do unsatisfactory. and er, one has to admit, when you look at the literature of like, you know gandhi, and and this kind of thing, and a lot of it's psycho-history stuff. erm, you can't help feeling that there has been a mistake. is that your impression of this? no one does that, yes, that's erm well, what, why do you think why? erm,just having different it's different than what yeah. it's different than what people normally think yes, it's interesting you see, if you, if you can compare freud with other writers who are in the same kind of area and league like . why do people put up with anything from . er, we know that systematically seduced a lot of his female patients. he forced his wife to put up with having his mistress living in the house with them. unfortunate woman erm, er, he as long as they were winning the war, was, was open in his admiration of hitler and the nazis. his none of this is ever mentioned about , you know, mention to anybody, and there's er, you know, er, you know, he's one of the good guys. but er, if freud had done any of that, you'd never hear the end of it. freud, nazi lover, you know, freud, seducer, all this kind of stuff. people would go on about. erm, and yet erm people like could get away with it. er, you know, great ethologist, local supporter of the nazis before world war two. all forgotten afterwards. somehow is an okay man. okay total crap about the aggression of something, a book on aggression. totally wrong. nobody animal er behaviour accepts that, that, that nonsense any more. yeah, you know is okay, he's an okay name. but erm, sigmund freud as you rightly say, a moment there's anything you can see wrong if , certainly happens to darwin. you can have hardly few weeks or months go by when you see some, you know er, latest lunatic disproof of darwin, you know, appears in the press. everyone says, oh i know darwin was wrong. it's almost always crap. the latest book was total crap. i mean it really was. it should never got any, any attention in the press, yet there was all bits in the sunday times, darwin disproved. the reason could be, of course, as you say, that, that people like darwin and freud have made really important discoveries and that's why nobody can leave them alone. ,,basically crappy people, crappy people. and do you know, so what, so what, you just forget about that. there've been plenty of people like that, all down history, and plenty of them psychologists,who've had lunatic and silly ideas that everyone's forgotten about. but take the time just to study oh, surely that, that, that's one of the big, that's one of the big problems. it could be of course, that we're too near to them, because if you think about it, this has happened to most great pioneers in, in science, they were, for the first erm, certainly for the first century, there's often a tremendous er, rejection. i mean take erm, people like copernicus, er, galileo and newton. if, if you look at their work, for about the first hundred years after all of them, their work was widely, er, disparaged and rejected. then after about a hundred years, suddenly people seemed to change their, to change their minds about it. of course, the hundred years is only just up for darwin and not yet up for freud, depending on when you start the hundred years it makes a . erm, the er, there seems to be kind of latency period when great, innovations in human thought are followed by considerable turbulence and upset, and the figure responsible becomes a kind of er, you know bogey person, that, that, that, that people get, get perhaps that's certainly true of darwin, though i think it's abating now. but er, it was certainly true of er,even be true of people like einstein, you know, the tremendous anti-einstein ruled particularly in germany which denounced it. it was jewish and so on, and because einstein was jewish and therefore he had to be more jewish science and erm there was a book published called fifty against einstein. einstein's comment was, one would have been enough and as usual of course, einstein was right. one would have been enough, if they had any good arguments or data which er they didn't have. i erm, i suppose this is, this is a phenomenon of human history. the trouble with woodrow wilson, of course, is if you want to get some, get freud, well, this book is very handy, because as you've seen, it does solve all your problems. my guess is that in about twenty or thirty years' time, it would be reprinted and people would start to re-think, oh well, perhaps this is not so true. but, but in writing historical erm, analysis and, and biography, presumably people, i mean, people can't help er writing, writing history, and trying to answer questions, like, why did woodrow wilson erm, not the fourteen points through, and presumably, one possible explanation is the kind of freud bullett approach, and presumably if you can find erm, relevant data and if you convince, and if you can convince that that's plausible, it's a legitimate thing to attempt to do. we are not saying, that necessarily it's the right thing to do, but it seems to me people are going to do it anyway, aren't they. people are anyway going to try and look for,lo look for explanations, and it may be that, you know, in fifty or a hundred years' time, peoples insight into, into freud's findings are different. and this is my personal view, as you know i think that people see, er, freud completely differently in fifty or a hundred years' time. possibly because freud himself, you now, was misunderstood. to such a large extent some of the things were misunderstood that he discovered. and when people see psychoanalysis in a different content, then they might look back to things freud and bullett studies, and say, well, perhaps it wasn't so amusing after all. erm, the sorry one thing i was going say before we finish, because is our only american here, and since woodrow wilson was a great american. what's the, what kind of impression have you got from, er you know, from your education and, and er and trying to, focus at home about woodrow wilson? how does he seem today, by america? does he, is he regarded as a great figure, or mm. erm, he is erm regarded as in terms of erm,he tried so hard and just mm. yeah, right, be with you in a sec. yeah. yes yep. that's right. that must be the, that must be the consensus yeah because i asked in the other classes, three or four american students, and i asked them the same question. it's very and they gave the same answer the history erm, you know america,history of very interesting and erm, oh, really, oh are you? er between the wars, and you didn't know this that erm loads of the history that i read here in britain very different from the history yeah. so they, so do you think there's a tendency for americans still to kind of idealize wilson, but for europeans to be a bit more cynical. well, i think not that they're afraid not to be but well, i think they have a lot to do, quite a lot to do with it. obviously, that erm, i just think that i don't know, it, it's very different from . mm. whereas god is not always really always the truth reality mm. yes. this is history that you really believe it. sure. yes. but, at the same time, you should go some place else to get a different view to get a different view, and yet i it's been very interesting it's been very interesting you know what i mean, you know, always. i nearly cost her a and she don't know. that's true, that's true, yes, sure, yes, yes not fair. it's on a personal level yeah, yeah. well, it, it's just coming up to three, er, well done. congratulations and apologies. as i said i won't do this next year. not unless the book comes out again. can i remind who isn't here. right, if you see tell her yes,. now if you see tell her how much we missed her. er, next week we're gonna miss her even more, because she's supposed to be doing the paper. as we'll see another if this was a black book of freud's, and in some ways you would say this was one of the blackest. the other blackest, other blackest book is on next week, when we shall see freud, erm psychoanalysing not woodrow wilson, but moses. so don't miss it folks. and certainly, make sure doesn't. thanks. erm,i've managed to write an essay or two, would you but shall, we've been thinking we started last week and we're gonna be thinking over the next few weeks, er some of the people that jesus met, some of those who confronted him who's lives came into contact with jesus christ and what difference it made to them? why he ever bothered with them? and this, incident that we have, we've had read for us by er the two pats earlier on in, from john chapter four, it's a, it's a very beautiful account of our lord's dealings with this particular lady, this samaritan woman. and, it's not a text but perhaps a verse that we could use as a, as a springboard is verse twenty seven, and it says at this point his disciples came and they marvelled that he had been speaking with a woman! yet, no one said what do you seek? or why do you speak with her? it's interesting that although these are the thoughts going through the disciples' minds, none of them actually put them into words and asked jesus what it was all about. as we said earlier on, he had been they had been travelling through and jesus had se settled down there for a while and sent his disciples into a,th a nearby town across the frontier, er to get some food and some provisions, er to to last them for the remainder of their journey and jesus is just sitting there by this well, he's tired, he's thirsty, weary and hungry, just waiting there and then this lady comes to draw water from the well. this, and jesus starts speaking to her and, when they come back that amazes these disciples! but for several reasons! first of all, according to the jewish law no rabbi or teacher should ever hold conversation with a woman alone! that was taboo! the second thing, to compound it, was that the lord jesus, obviously being a man, and should not have se , been speaking with a woman about serious and important issues! and a strange woman at that! you didn't talk about th , you might have talked about the weather, but you never have talked about things like religion or politics with a woman! it was again, one of the unheard of things for a jewish man to do! and of course, the third thing was this racial difference! the lord was a jew, and this woman was a samaritan, a woman of samaria. and all of that made the conversation,th the fact that jesus was talking with this woman, a very improper thing nineteen hundred years ago! but, let's notice that, first of all, the lord really did speak to this woman! and what he said he said with such authority because of whom he is. and what he said to this woman resulted in the transformation of her life! now, those three facts were true as far this particular woman is concerned, but they are also true in relation to you and to me today. the lord is waiting to speak to us, he's waiting to speak to you, he's waiting to me, through his word. and what he says with authority! it's not just oh well, yeah, well that's alright in the bible, it is his word er which has authority, greater authority than any of the so called experts, greater authority than any of the, the deliberations of men, whether they be church leaders or anything of tha , er or anything else. he speaks with authority! that was one of the reasons why the people listened to him. it says the common folk, the crowds, the populous, they heard him gladly because he spoke as one having authority! he wasn't just pontificating, he wasn't just starting out things he thought about, he and and, ideas that had come into his head, he spoke as one who had authority and because of that they heard him. and he speaks to us today through his word with that same authority. his word has got to have that place of authority in our lives. and what he says to us can result in the complete transformation of our lives. you see, he doesn't just speak to us for small talk, he doesn't just speak to while away the time with, with conversation. you know, that is a good test of your relationship with a person if there is a sense in which you are embarrassed to be with them, and there's long periods of silence it's a pretty good test that it's not a deep relationship you have with them. if you have a deep relationship with a person you can spend long periods of silence, being together and not be embarrassed, not be wondering what shall i say now? or what can i say? what can i introduce into the conversation? and jesus doesn't just chat to us for the sake of chatting to us, he, when he speaks to us his words have authority, they have input, they are vital and we must pay attention to them. so let's, ask ourself these questions, not just for this woman of samaria but for us, why did our lord seek the interview with this woman? why does he talk to her? why does he seek to talk with us? why does he want to share with us? and for a little while this morning i'd like us to look briefly at four, very simple answers to that question. they were true for this woman, but more important than that they're true for you and they're true for me today. the first reason why jesus talked with this woman was very simply because he liked her! jesus did not see people, he does see people just as people. he doesn't see us as a part of a crowd, he doesn't see us as a number on a computer, he doesn't see us as numbers on a bank account, or in some other organizational er er er computer set up or whatever it is, he doesn't just see us as that he sees us as individuals. you look at a crowd of people, er last, a week, a week yesterday at wembley at the billy graham mission there, er we were sitting in one place and i was looking for, for some other folk and i knew approximately where they were and there i was stand, they were, all you could really see was this mass of people, very difficult to pick out individuals within them but god doesn't see it as a mass like that. if you like, it's the close up, the zoom lens is on each one of us all the time, and that's how he sees us. he doesn't see us a mass of seventy odd thousand people in harlow today, he sees you as an individual and he loves us in that same way. john three sixteen what it says, that god so loved the world! it doesn't just mean that he loved a mass of humani , he does that, but he doesn't love the mass as a mass, he loves the mass as individuals, one by one, god loves you! just the same as he loved this woman of samaria, and because he loved her he wanted to communicate with her, he wanted to share with her, he had something for her. you know, that word love it's become so devalued hasn't it? it's er, it's not, it's just one of the most undervalued words in the english language, we use it for everything but in this context we've gotta see it clothed wi with dignity and all the glory that it deserves, god loved her! and god loves you! not for what he gets out of you. you know it's possible, and we use that word love, it's not really love, so we'll love somebody else for what they can get out of them, course do that's an undervalue of the word love, it's a, it's it's it's a, it's it's making the word totally ineffectual. god does not love you for what he gets out of you. he loves you, first of all, he because he is love! it's his nature. god can no more stop loving you than he can stop being! his nature. it's, for us, it's something that we do, for god it's something that he is! you know, water is wet and, even when you change it into, and you freeze it, you know, you hold the ice it still is wet when you heat it up and it's steam it's still wet! by nature, it is wet and that's, that's just a feature of water. god is love! it's his nature. he doesn't stop loving us when we do wrong, he doesn't stop loving us when we turn our back on him, he doesn't stop loving us when we ignore him, he doesn't stop loving us when we, when we trample every everything that he does is when we trample it under foot and we are in total rebellion to him, he still doesn't stop loving us because he is love! the minute god, is a a hi hypothetical thing which is totally ridiculous, the minute god stops loving, he stops being, because he is love! that's what john tells us. god is love! and th jesus, he se he seeks out this woman to speak with her because he loves her. medi , already mentioned er, that god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. and the apostle paul in two corinthians in chapter eight and nine he says,for you know the grace of our lord jesus christ, that though he was rich yet for your fates he became poor . that's the evidence of his love. he doesn't love in word only, he loves in deed! he who possessed all things, laid it all aside, he who was rich became poor because he loves you, and he wants to share his riches with you, and with me. and over in galatians in chapter four, and in verse four,but when the fullness of time came god sent forth his son! god so loved the world that he gave his son and here paul said, that at the right time, at the right moment in that se , in that very day in history which was god ordained, god sent his son into this world! born of a woman, born under the law. in order that he might redeem those who are under the law, that he might bring us into his family . and just one more scripture on this in ephesians chapter five,a and verse twenty five i , paul there, he's saying, the husbands love your wives, and he tells them how and why. just as christ also loved the church, and he gave himself up for it . god loves you! jesus loves you! and he loved this woman, and he wanted to communicate with her. who was she? a poor peasant woman engaged in menial tasks. her life had been an absolute failure! what a mess she had made of it, by her own confession! an outcast in her society. yet, jesus seeks her out because he wants to demonstrate to her that he loves her! just as she was. but the terrible mess she had made of her life! with all the baggage of sin that she had around her he loved her. and you and i can look at her and look at others and say well, we're not like that we're exactly the same as that! because we have all sinned and come short of god's standard. god doesn't itemize sin. he doesn't categorize in good, bad, and not so bad, it is all sin to him and as sinners, he loves us. we were saying earlier, he didn't wait until we were cleaned up before he loved us, but he loved us in our sin whilst we were yet sinners, the apostle says, christ died for us! and so jesus, he draws near to this woman, and he comes to you and he comes to me, to cleanse and forgive, we'll just turn from our sin and meet him in confession. the wise man back in proverbs in chapter twenty eight and verse thirteen he says,he who conceals his transgression will not prosper but he who confesses and forsakes them will find compassion . and no matter how true that is in the natural sense, it is a, it is abundantly true as far as god is concerned. if we confess then he forgives. and the prophet, jeremiah he'll remind us of the compassion of god. says, i have loved you with an everlasting love! that's how god loves you. not a love that changes, not a love that starts when you become nice, not a love that, you know, that well if you, if you've got, if you've got it, it's got it's good days and it's bad days i have loved you with an everlasting love says god! therefore, i have drawn you with love and kindness. and that's the sort of love that he has for you, and for me. and so jesus seeks this woman out because he loves her, and he seeks to communicate with you and with me, because he loves us! but he ta also he talked with her because he sought her salvation. you see, it wasn't just a case of loving her and that was all there was to it, that might be very nice to know that god loves me, but i, there's a sense in, i want to know what that love produces. i want to know what it means to me. and he has talked with her, he sought her out, not just because he loved her, but because in his love he wanted to save her! he wanted to rescue her! this woman was lost and, and she knew it. nobody needed to tell her she was a sinner she confessed it openly! she knew her situation, she knew her condition. now, there are many folk who don't realize they're sinners, they don't realize they're lost, this woman did. but whether we're aware of it or not doesn't alter the fact that if we're outside of god, outside of jesus christ then we are lost. we don't become lost, we are already lost! jesus said, i have come to seek and to save that which is lost. and we don't become lost at the end of lives, we don't become lost at some date in history, we are lost now if he hasn't found us. and this woman, she realized it, others don't always realize it, but that doesn't alter the fact of the lostness. so why was she lost? was it because she'd broken the seventh commandment? no, that wasn't why she was lost. she broke it because she was lost. that didn't make her lost. she was already lost! she was lost because she had never been saved! she had never been found! and you know there's a you and i, whatever stage we are in our pilgrimage, in our journey in life, we don't become lost because of what we do. we don't become sinners because we commit sin. that is our nature, just as god's nature is love, so our nature is, we are sinners by nature. and it's not a case of, we become sinners because we sin, but rather the bible teaches us, we sin because we are sinners! it's the natural thing that we do! it's our nature! and of course, the gospel is the great thing, and this is a message of the gospel, that jesus has come to change our nature and give us a new nature, put in put within us his nature. but that's further on. so this woman she was lost, not because of what she'd done, but because, simply, she had never ever been found, and jesus had come to find her, he had come to rescue her, he had come to save her. paul, when he's writing to timothy in the first letter, and in chapter one and in verse fifteen, the great apostle paul! he says it's a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance that christ jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom i am foremost of all! the great apostle paul, says i am the chief of sinners ! but christ came into the world to save sinners! the reason that jesus talked with this woman was that he wanted to save her. that is, to say, he wanted to reveal to her, her sinful condition and need, and this he did when he speaks to her, about her sinful life. he doesn't beat about the bush. he doesn't come soft with it. he doesn't, you know, talk about all the hardships she's had, and it's been very difficult for all tho , he is absolutely straight but he still deals with her in love and compassion! he doesn't come with a judgemental way. he says, i haven't come to judge the world, i haven't come to condemn you, you're already under condemnation! he says, i've come to rescue you, to save you! and so, he comes and to reveal to her, her sinful condition and need but also to forgive her sin. and that's a tremendous thing when we come to god in christ, the first thing he does for us is to forgive us our sins. but you say, i haven't done anything against god. oh we have! cos it's all sin. whether er, if i sin i'm wronging, and i've wronged you. you say, well it's against me. no, it's against god first of all because all sin is rebellion against god. that's why david could say, against thee, thee only have i sinned after he's committed adultery, after he's committed murder, after he's involved other people in his nefarious deeds he can still say i've committed sin against god! i've wronged others! i've done terrible harm to them! but my sin is against god! and he's the only one who can forgive that sin. other's forgive me for the wrong doing, and for the harm i do to them, but it's only god who can forgive my sin. oh the, the scribes, the pharisees were quite right on o , on several occasions when jesus forgave people they said ha! who does this man think he is, forgiving people sin! only god can forgive sin! and they're quite right, only god could forgive sin. that's who jesus is god in flesh, and he came to forgive sin and he wanted to forgive this woman her sin. and not only to forgive her sin, he also wanted to cleanse her. let me read you those tremendous ver words from john, first john in chapter one, says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, he or your fellowship with one another, and the blood of jesus, his son, cleanses us from all sins. see, cleansing is not forgiveness. cleansing, if you like, is the next stage, it's taking away all trace of the sin, it's taking away the mark, the residue of the sin, it cleanses us from all sin. if we confess our sins he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. and that's not repetition, it's two different things. he forgives us ours sin and he cleanses us from all our sin. and then the, the fourth thing there that jesus wants to show to this woman as well, was that he wanted to break the power of sin in her life. telling her what was wrong with her, which she already knew. even forgiving her and cleansing her was not enough because tomorrow's another day, tomorrow's got it's temptations and wonderful though forgiveness is i need more than just being forgiven. that deals with the past. might deal with this present moment, but i need something for tomorrow, and the next day, and week next week, and next year. jesus came not just to forgive and to cleanse, but to break the power of sin in her life. tells us that the son makes you free. you shall be free indeed. now, all these things are not just for this woman, they were for you, and they're for me. then again, he talked with her because he longed to satisfy to meet her needs, as a human being she'd aspiration, she'd hope, she'd desires and as she looked back on her life, some of them may have been fulfilled, some of her plans may have been realized, but there must have been an awful emptiness, and awful hollowness about so much. she had tried so many times, she had tried so many things! and if we're honest, that is so often our story. we want satisfaction, we want completeness in life, and so we try this and it gives it for a moment, but when it's finished we've gotta try something else. last year's holiday was great, last year, and i might get a bit of enjoyment out of looking at the photographs, but i'm still paying for one again this year! because you see, i i want some, there's this continual requirement of,o that we need satisfaction, we need fulfilment. and jesus longed to meet this woman on that her deep need of fulfilment. and he uses a picture, he says, look, you're gonna come and you're, you're drawing this water and you're gonna come back tomorrow and get some more, and the next day you'll come with your jugs and have some more water, and that's the story of your life, coming back again, and again, and again but the, the water that i will give you, that won't be an external source outside of you, that's gonna be within you! a well of water springing up into everlasting life! he says, that satisfaction you're seeking, you're not finding it outside! he said, like coming to this well for your jug of water every day it's alright while i , the jug, there's some in the jug, but when you've drunk it all the jug's empty and it doesn't do a thing for you! he said but, why do that? why not have the well within you? why not have the light within you so you don't have to go and get it outside but it's there dwelling within you, day by day, moment by moment? and he longs to meet this woman's need. and we can try all sorts of things. and there's, there's things are not necessarily wrong, there's the legitimate things, erm,wi within our work,th there's a, there's job satisfaction, but there's more to that than, in life than just job satisfaction. there's the satisfaction in our home, and our family, in having a good home and a nice home and,a and the the material benefits that we are able to er, to to achieve. there's nothing wrong with them as such but he says the real satisfaction isn't to be found in them, it's within you. it's not in an external thing. because, after all, what happens that last year's model it wears,y y , you're a bit fed up with it! and a new model comes out and you want that! and you get a bit fed up of it, i mean, after all, unless you're into sort of veteran cars, who wants to, who wants to drive around in an old ford poplar of of twenty, twenty five, thirty years ago? nobody! because what is produced today is so much better. but the thing is, what's gonna be produced next year will be better still! and the year after that will be still better! and so, we're constantly wa , seeking for something else and god says hang on! the real source of enjoyment should be within you, and that's what i will give to you. and then, finally, he talked with this woman, and he wants to talk with us because he wants to use us, he wanted to use her. and this how li , this is how god spreads the gospel, this is how he spreads his message through his people through using his pe , using in the very best sense of the word, he doesn't make use of us he involves us in his work, and so, he saves us, he satisfies us and then he sends us forth, and he does that with this woman. he says, you go and tell, go and tell your family and, she's embarrassed said well erm erm, and if i did, don't worry he said,i know you , i know your family situation, i know your background, you don't have to tell me it, i know it all! i know that you've been through husbands until now th y y , the feller you're living with, your seventh husband is not e , you're e actually married to him. i know all about you! he said, and i want to use you. go and tell them. go and tell the folk back in the village, go and tell those who are related to you what you have heard today. tell them, what i've said to you the message that i have given to you . that i love you! that i want to save you. that i can satisfy you, go and tell them! and so this woman, she didn't preach a sermon, but she does give her a testament, she goes back and she gets the folk in the village, and she says, come see someone, meet someone, let me introduce you to someone who has told me everything that i have ever done! isn't this the christ ? isn't this the messiah ? i'm quite sure she said more than just that. i'm quite sure that when she said that, come see a man that told me everything i did, she didn't just leave it there, but she'd have put such words as and he didn't condemn me he didn't berate me he didn't point a judgemental finger at me, but he loved me! he saved me! he forgave me! he's cleansed me! he's made me a new person! isn't this the christ? come and see him for yourself! and they do just that. they go off to see just what she's on about because she's told them, he'll do the same for you, what he's done for me, he can do for you as well! he wants to lo , he wants to show his love to you. he wants to forgive you. he wants to cleanse you. he wants to satisfy you too. and so she's becomes an instrument in, sharing this good news, a vital witness, and she's got this joy of seeing others coming and meeting with jesus through her simple testimony. what is it that god wants to say to you and to me? well, from this incident, he wants to remind you and me, wherever we are, i love you! i love you! he says. i want to save you! i want to forgive you! i want to cleanse you! i want to break the power of sin in your life. because that's what my salvation is all about. it's a complete salvation. i want to satisfy you. i want to meet those needs, those longings, those aspirations you've got. i want to put within you my fountain of life springing up within you! not external, but there right in the centre of your life. and i want to use you. i want you to become a co-labourer together with me. i want you to get involved in sharing what i'm doing for you with other folk. that's what he wants to say to her, i believe. as we read that account, oh yes, we can read as a historical account of jesus' encounter with this woman, but it's more than that it's the sort of encounter he wants to have with you, and he wants to have with me. the sort of encounter that he wants us to have with him. meeting us where we are, meeting as in our needs there, and then changing us and sending us out as his followers, with his message sharing, that's all this woman did, simply sharing what god, in christ had done for her. come and see what he's done for me! and their testament at the end was yes! we believe it now. not just because of what you've said, that wetted our appetite, that intrigued us, that aroused our curiosity, but we believe it because we have seen and heard for ourselves and we've recognized his authority. we're gonna sing now. arnold, would you do me a favour please? could you slip out and retrieve our pianist? thank you. songs, in the songs of fellowship it's number one sixty one, one hundred and sixty one. takes, this song takes up that theme that jesus introduces to his disciples about a harvest being ready. the interesting thing, just in passing, that particular time of the year was not actually harvest time, and as jesus looked over the harvest field it wasn't the harvest field that was ripened corn, it was actually full of green shoots, and it is the harvest now is ripe, it's plenteous because he wasn't talking about that, he was talking about men and women. one sixty one in that. and chris takes that theme up here, the fields, they're ready for harvest they're all, what is needed is labours. whilst we're singing this can we take up our morning offering. here i am. holy available. let's pause there and pray shall we? and we have to confess lord that, words are very easy to say and to sing and we can sing them and, feel that we're doing the right thing and go our way but lord we pray that the words we sing might be the words that we means, and the words that we say might be the things and the, the way we mean to conduct our lives. we thank you that you sought us out and you demonstrated your great love for us, and you reached out and rescued us saved us. you forgave us our sins, you cleansed us from all unrighteousness. and you have given your holy spirit to dwell within us. and you have given power over sin. not withstanding lord, we have to confess that we still fail you again and again, but we thank you that you provide power for us, to live lives that are pleasing to you. we thank you lord that you've done all this for us and we find our satisfaction in you. we find our reason for life in you. we find in you our, our our well of springing up there within us as you dwell in us. dear lord we, we want to be of use to you, we want to be of service to you, we want to be salt and light in our communities, we want to be your labourers, working together with you. and as we've been singing we just want those words to be true in our experience. here we are available to you. not to do our thing, but to do your thing. not to go at our charge, but to go at your charge. not to be individuals doing our own thing and, walking our own path, but working together with you, in harmony with you and your body in our community, in our situation where we are. lord, as we look around we see a a tremendous harvest and we just pray that we might be honourable and faithful in the task that you give to us. the responsibility that you lay upon us in being involved in your harvest at this time. as we ask it in your name for your glory. we realize lord, that we can't do it ourself we are totally dependent upon you and yet we thank you for this. oh lord we as offer ourselves to you, we think of those who have been unable to be with us today for whatever reason, some on holiday, and we just pray for your blessing to be with each one, and to be with all of as we ask it in your name for your praise and glory. amen. ? yes. surely. right. so that's the charter mark, we're going for it again but i don't think the impact will be, you know the main impact was, was last time. i put on that your newsletter that i sent round in york er to tell staff we were going for it again, so you know th start wearing your badges. start wearing your badges yes, yes, keep up appearances. right mrs bouquet. the next, yeah that's right yeah yeah i put keep on keeping up appearances or something, yeah. appearances, bids for f various funding, there are three issues on that that came up at c s m t. erm the t q m one, which is the er you know the, the quality mhm. training, quality workshops. we've actually been successful in that again because we've got, last year i think we got six thousand pounds, and this year we've been told we can have eighty percent of the same again. so yeah very good. so erm you know a fair chunk of money again and er yeah the first two years alan's already had initial discussions with a few of us and with graham about what the next stage should be erm but that's really not been finalized yet. but there will obviously be sort of an ongoing training and so on because i, i know that in some ways i think it's been very mixed and i qu i put it is mixed. it on the agenda and i'd quite like to talk about it today. but erm i think really at the end of the day staff have only really had just that one day workshop, mhm. some of which went better than others mm. and you can't expect a lot, to achieve a lot from just mm. one day. mm. and i think it's finding people's perceptions of those one days are so different aren't they? it's really strange isn't it? mm. the way val talks i think i must have been at something else. i know. i know. but i've heard two people yes. that went to the same one talking differently. mm. oh yeah, yeah. it's r really quite baffling but i think i think one of the important things about, about that and perhaps it ne needs building in somewhere else and i know it's extra time, is debriefing staff yeah. yes. when they've been on courses. mm. because i've, i've spoken to staff who, who thought it was awful but when chatted to them about it mm. they have, they have got something out of it yeah. and certain parts of it were useful, and perhaps it wasn't so bad after all, mm. once you'd discussed it with them. mm. but there were certain elements that remained in, in their, in, in their mind yeah. that, that spoilt the course or were not relevant and they'd forgotten about the relevant bits. mm yes, yeah. yeah remember the parts yeah. yeah. good points. but i think perhaps it's no it's not only with that course i th think it's lots of other anyway, haven't you? yeah with other training as well, yeah we are in, yeah. yeah we, we occasionally get forms through but er there mm. doesn't seem to be a set system at the moment whereby you know we mm. should be sitting down with staff who've been on courses. mm, yeah alan's very keen to promote that. tendency if you talk about it you'd be honest but to write it on a form you'd be exactly. i wasn't scared the other thing is to talk it over with your line manager, so that if you've picked something up you want to implement yourself back at, in the workplace then yes. you've got support to do that, you're not battling on your own yeah. yeah. really. and if you've told someone else i'm going to change my work practices in this way and it's been supported then is it, it's more difficult to forget about it no. isn't it really? yeah. so i mean alan's very keen on it cos it's all to do with investors in people and so on, so er i mean what we really need is somebody centrally like a proper training officer mm. that's right, mm. with time to really get issues like that under way. that's right. but erm w we haven't got that, so anyway something kevin shall we get yes kevin. i'll do it. you'd like to do it, yeah. mm. erm the, the second lost me bit. oh here it is. the second bid issue is the careers service branch development fund which is the one that's available every year, but we originally had jane 's project, the f e project and so, erm now this year the bids have been asked to be on certain subject areas. and er we were quite fortunate in this cos i went, had to go to a meeting in sheffield and i hadn't realized in advance but at this meeting the people at the meeting were asked to give recommendations as to what priorities should be given in terms of awarding the bids. so i came away with this sort of inside information ah of what was going to be favoured. erm it sort of backfired a bit on poor er ray because he'd actually written up a bid er for us to do, which was about investors in people to actually h appoint somebody to control that process which would take on board all of the training and mm. quality issues and mm. so on. but at this meeting i went to, people there felt very strongly that services should not be awarded funding to go for investors in people. because if services should be doing it were doing it on their own two feet, yeah. then you know why should it be seen as a disincentive for them to that and services that hadn't been bothered to do that be given money. mm. erm and also it was felt that the i i p was quite well structured, and that there was potentially less to learn from a service mm. implementing that than something that was a little bit more innovative. so i had to come back and sort of say to ray, you know, if we go for that bid it's not likely to be supported, erm so we, what we'd done is a different bid which still includes investors but it's, it's a bit broader than that. and what it's actually to do is is to do with this national standards and indicators that have been written for the careers service. and that really they're to do with, they cover all aspects of the work that we currently carry out. but when they were originally written erm i think it were f seen as fairly low key but now they've taken, assumed a much greater importance in terms of them being the actual service specification for the new careers services under the, the employment legislation. erm and so the, the project we've put forward is that we will trial some of these indicators, to see whether they work, to see what they tell us, erm and therefore we would hopefully be able to improve these indicators, so that we think that they're, they're much better in order to er sort of shape the, the performance for the, the future services. but i don't know whether we'll get it or not. we've been quite lucky cos we got the mm management to put money have been lucky. and you know it's a case of whether you believe that we're in favour because we got this money and therefore we're likely to get more, or whether we're out of favour, especially as paul's making us fairly unpopular with all this, the success he's having in lobbying. mm. which, you know, alan and i were saying we were a bit concerned about because he's doing i such a good job i think on the lobbying, that north yorkshire are not going to be flavour of the month in terms of ministers or senior civil servants civil servants. really. mm. but anyway double edged sword. mm. yeah. it is yeah. when, is there a, a date when the bids will be announced? probably, but i don't know when it is . you don't know when it is. no . no i don't know when they're making decisions, the deadline for them being in was the end of the financial year, right. and one of the criteria that derek said that they would, would be supporting bids were for ones that would start at the beginning of may. tt. right so come under yeah . come under. and in fact we said that we would be able to start it on the, at the beginning of may, even though we knew we wouldn't,we thought we'd say that just nod in agreement. yeah. so you know, nothing might come of that but if it does erm i would be very keen to actually er the, the plan was to second a member of c s m t for six months to do it, and i would be very keen to do it i must admit. erm but we'll have to wait and see. erm the third one is we've got a small amount of money out of, think again it's out of teed and, but it's n y t e c have got hold of it and it's to do with further development of the careers service tech partnership, but it's only a few thousand, it's a very small n amount compared, i mean the bid that we've put in for this standards and indicators is more like sort of thirty thousand. but erm the one on the er for the partnership is only in the region of about four or five thousand. and i think what paul wants to spend that on is bringing erm in some external consultant to actually look at models for the future, how to develop our current partnership model mm. into something where mm. the board are executive and decision making mm. rather than advisory. so somebody like erm . i can't think of the names, you know these pete . , mm. pete , that sort of thing. mm. er and of course erm roger 's quite keen on that idea as mm. well, and he's the one that'll make the decision i think cos he's got hold of the money. so mm. i think that's what that'll be spent on. you see it's quite nice that erm some money is, is coming in from outside, but i don i think ideally it's not really being spent on what our, our top priorities would mm. be, but i think it's just a case of taking advantage of what there is available that's right, yeah. to see what, what benefit we can get out of that really. there's always a danger that you've, you've, it's a fine balance between it creating more work, so it actually causes more problems. but i think certainly the one on standards and indicators is so central to everything we do and mm. are going to be doing under the new contract think you could only learn from that really. erm links with n y t e c was the next thing on the agenda, just to report back that jane and paul have had a long meeting with roger and helen from the tech. i think it was really because paul felt that everything was going really well with the partnership board, and he'd been erm putting a lot of work in with people like erm from scarborough, and john and er other people who are on the board, but he'd rather been neglecting building up a really good working relationship with n y t e c. so he decided he needed to invest some time in, in that. and erm they had a, obviously a very productive meeting and, and it, they didn't say a lot about it but overall they said that really roger and helen now had a much better understanding of the direction we wanted to go in in the future and were pretty supportive of it really. and certainly on to the point of wanting to bail out and contract right. bid for a contract to run a careers service on their own yeah. or anything like that. mm. which i understand another er local tech are, are actually doing. erm we talked about the y t guarantee. erm but that's all a bit depressing cos talk about the y t guarantee . that's what he talked about at the s w g isn't it? yes it is. is it? yeah on the tenth of may there's s w g hmm. and that's one of the main topics of conversation and a representative of n y t e c will be there. so it's from a guarantee point of view rather than how to compile the stats? well unfortunately not. well it won't be no but i think it will focus on why there are anomalies still between the offices, erm n y t e c yeah but i think what w jane is going to do is invite somebody from n y t e c to join us later, so that we have chance to get our act together mm. and er paper over cracks before they come. yeah so so you're all singing the same song. yeah. same key. that's right exactly, yeah. so er i'm actually going to go to that meeting, jane asked if, you know there's anybody i really, really invited anyone from c s m t to go. so i thought as we've still got the biggest guarantee i would go to it. erm have you decided which one of you are coming or are you both coming or? diane's going to go diane's gonna go but i haven't had a chance to talk to her about it yet, again. okay right, great. yeah di diane was off sick earlier in the week so yeah. right. and not been in much since she came back. yeah i've still been working though. erm you haven't been in the office is what i mean, in the centre. thank you. in the centre centre yeah. you've been in the centre of things. you're always in the centre of things . centre of things, but not in the centre here. staffing issues. really that wasn't actually dis the staffing issues themselves weren't discussed, but just to recap on what the situation is with the staffing issues and what's meant by that. about a third of our staff have got temporary contracts. most of which i know some of them have already come to an end like julie's e s mm. f contract er and the other e o e s f contracts have come to an end. but there are quite a few contracts which are still temporary, most of them go to the end of june. erm one or two people are temporary ext extend beyond that like er norma for example, in t v e i contract which goes to the end of august. mm. but de it's been done deliberately that other contracts extend to end of june because, we knew that by round about mid may we would know what our financial situation was, in that what i understand are termed out-turn figures for the, our pre the previous financial year, will have been erm audited as a result of the end of the financial year. so we'll know whether we're in the black, red or where mhm. we are. and obviously it'll be very dependent on how much money we've got as to what our stavin staffing establishment will be. so obviously no one who's got an establishment contract will be affected from the first of july, but really everyone who's on a temporary contract, those contracts are very much in the melting pot, and we've got a meeting on the nineteenth of may s an extra c s m t meeting, to say, right this is how much money we've got, these are the people with temporary contracts but the third and most important factor really is this is a new assessment of the workload of every office, and whereas in the past careers officer establishment has been based exclusively on year eleven figures and other staffing has been based on pretty arbitrary factors of historical nature mm mm. and what m s u had to say when they reviewed us mm. er we're hoping now that we will be able to take into account a much broader range of factors. so keith has been doing a lot of work erm and putting on a database information about office traffic, y t occupancy, mm. f e, sixth form, year eleven, independent schools, special needs. he's taken all of those factors into consideration. it started to get out of proportion in that he, ray has been talking to him about the impact of the summer season in scarborough in terms of how long it takes his staff to get from a to b. tt oh. people have been talking to him about sickness and that if an office has erm people that are off sick a lot more than another office they're at a disadvantage. oh no tt. and it's got er really absolutely that's silly . totally ridiculous, erm so you know i said to keith, well you know alright york races, better put that in and a you know i started getting mm. a bit sort of flippant about it yes and mm. i hope that when we meet on the nineteenth alan or paul will immediately knock all that on the head. er mm. and we've got the bridge in selby of course? of course, yes. yes the bridge. mm. should be worth half a careers officer. i, i mean obviously i hope the decisions will go my way because keith has actually argued in the past that we should disregard f e, because he says it's, it's impossible to fairly take account of that, and what he means is there's no f e formulae in northallerton, so he knows that if f e is excluded northallerton will be at a major divan will lose out, mm. mm. disadvantage you see. erm so i really don't know, i mean i tt in a sense i, i sort of feel that, that justice would be that, that our division would come out reasonably well from these discussions yeah. because i think that when you look at year eleven we're at a disadvantage mhm. because other things, oh one other thing that i was particularly keen that was taken into consideration is applications for training. for y t. mm. because w in an analysis of that, this division, does getting on fo i think it was forty seven percent of mm. those. whereas our year eleven figures are thirty five percent. mm. so you can see what i mean that these additional yeah. things yeah. it just gives us that extra bit of loading yeah. in terms of erm time. it's different time groups . hmm. unless a formula can be worked out, if you put all this stuff in, unless a formula can be worked out i mean you might as well just to year eleven full stop. i know. but it's each, yeah. the same with the information librarian isn't it? yes that's right in that if sh the, the case load charlotte's got here of two offices and, and a large number of schools compared with northallerton. northallerton. yes. mm. and yet they've got the same amount of time mm. and it's, it's, it's not right is it? i mean it's no. no no. i'm not surprised that our offices are in a mess, no. because she's just not got the time yeah. no that's right, that's right w with her having to be out at all the schools and everything. yeah. i, it, it was interesting actually because i mean nor northallerton is the e is the office at risk in a sense because when they get a fourth of anything, theirs is relatively more and ours is relatively less. less. scarborough and, and, and harrogate are pretty even and they're also very close to being a quarter mhm. of, of things. mm. erm so if we gained it would be at the expense of northallerton erm and when i, i made this point, well i didn't make this point i, i made the point about york being under-resourced because mm. we're, we're more than a quarter. erm you know and, and credit to cynthia, she was the one that immediately thought, spoke up agreeing with me. mm. erm and, but at the same time she is the one that always has, seems to have more to say about staffing problems cos it's sub offices and difficulty in coping with it there, yeah. this is the difficult thing, how, how do we take account of the sub offices of erm scarborough and, and northallerton? at the end of the day there's tadcaster, yeah. and we've got two full time offices that's right. they're talking about five offices as opposed to three. mhm. erm and we run sherburn in the summer. yeah i know, yes. yes i told keith about that. office in easingwold as well. we have to go into easingwold. well i don't think we have because i don't think it's been included in the programme this year . last year but the van every week. haven't got any staff to do it this, we managed to do it last year . cos it cath says it wasn't worth it . if you're looking at that, we maintain three point centres yeah. mm. during the year don't we because yes. sherburn is open. that's right, keith said that he certainly would take that into consideration. i said i'd let him know the total number of, of contact days or whatever with sherburn over the period so that is something i need to get from you bill. so you can imagine the sort of conversations we're gonna have when ray and cynthia are talking about the distances between things and i'm going to be saying you know if i want to go from piccadilly to tech house, it can take me at least half an hour. yeah. exactly yeah. it takes jane no longer than that to come from thirsk. that's right. mm. but tt i'm not looking forward to it. but you know i'm no you can't put travel time in can you? cos no. everywhere's got its own problems on that hasn't it no, yeah that's right in that they're all mm. whether it's distance or congestion,. and like you say our bridge does make a big difference. it does. you can get back from york in quarter of an hour and then you can be sat there for yeah. you know twenty minutes, yeah. half an hour. yeah. cynthia also admitted that maybe if they really had got staffing problems they would actually have to look at whether they, they did keep maintaining the, the sub offices that they were. and that you know, look at the traffic very seriously and see whether it was merited or not and that maybe greater use of the mobile. mm. but you would go there less frequently. which is based in northallerton anyway. yeah. mm. mm. but the thing i keep coming back to when i look at the figures is that northallerton is only a third bigger than selby. cath's getting fed up of me saying this . no i was only thinking that when you talk about yeah. northallerton when you think of the traffic that goes through richmond it's nearly as high as what goes through yeah. northallerton. yeah. mm. yeah. so there can't be much going on in thirsk and leyburn. no. no cynthia said that last line didn't she? no she said that that's why last line of yeah. but you see you still have to have a person there while we're that's right. still maintaining the offices. that's right. and er you might end up down to once a week if it's twice or whatever yeah. you know. mm. but we're looking to open full time. mm. gone on th it was being looked at at one point mm. along with whitby being full time, and certainly whitby traffic has increased enormously since they've got their new office. i've seen it from the outside it's quite erm yeah it's lovely. but then if you, at, it, filey it's n there's hardly anybody well. goes into the filey office, i can remember that from when it was my responsibility. this is going to be an interesting meeting, alan says it will be over by two thirty because he's organized for some training to happen then on er disciplinary issues. requested by personnel training. personnel training, requested by divisional manager west. i'm just wondering whether one or two things that's come down recently on discipline disciplinary sorry. just to sort of tear off on that. got him worried now. do you mean how, you mean how, how to, how to discipline? procedures. procedures procedures internal discipline you again? mm. there's been a lot of stuff come down from county. as opposed to complaints from outside. oh yeah. yeah, no staffing. staffing. and sickness as well if you're looking at yeah. counselling for sickness. excuse me . erm alison from the job centre is on the phone, and i asked her if it was urgent and she said, fairly urgent, it's regards to the article to do with article. erm it's concerning the photograph, and she just wondered if you had anything in mind for the photograph or if, if you wanted to leave it up to the press? tt erm i did wonder if this might happen actually i couldn't remember whether they wanted a photograph or not. cath, can you ever remember whether we've had a photograph taken at the recruitment fair? don't think so. i don't. no i haven't seen a picture. seen two possible but when the p cos the press have been there i mean they ha they had their own stand, they've not taken a photograph have they? oh. no i don't think so. that on the left, did they have a photograph of it? try and think about the initial one when the lord mayor opened it. tt you see the, the press might have something, they're actually taking part in the event that the erm right the erm article is about. right. a is she on still on at the moment? yes she's still on at the phone. yeah i'v i'll come and have a word with her. yeah it's okay. greater york aren't we? yeah. i mean then we didn't even go into fulford, we stopped there. yeah erm you'd, you'd, you'd, you'd have , huntington and fulford you wouldn't have easingwold or tadcaster though. it would, it would it wouldn't be a bad thing, would it? no. it would, it would be bigger though wouldn't it? than it was. anyway. hmm. interesting. where was i up to? j b been doing staffing. oh that's right. oh yeah the, the i think er actually other thing about yeah the other thing on staffing tt which is a related, but in a sense i'm trying to keep it as something of a separate issue, and that is to do with the amount of management time. i've started to talk to alan about what i see as a lack of, of management time erm in this division. erm but i must say that i know the view of erm both ray and cynthia is that they have a lack of management time in relation to the other two divisions, because they don't have the assistant divisional manager post. so it's yet another argument that you know everybody's got their legitimate view on and erm at the end of the day there's actually likely to be less money in the pot rather than more. mm. and i really don't know mm. what's going to be the outcome of some of this. mm. but anyway, so the meeting's on the nineteenth of may, we'll finish at two thirty. can i just say that that's the day before the c s m t that i'm going to, so how does it mm it is, yes yes. link into that meeting? because i don't think we'll have made any decisions by two thirty. so you'll think he'll just flow into the next day's so it'll be continuous at the c s m t the next day. right. and you see paul won't be present at the, i don't think paul'll be present at the meeting on the nineteenth, i think alan will chair that. right. so that what we will have to do is make our recommendations to paul the following day. so we'd have to go through it the next day anyway. do you want me to come on the nineteenth as well? so cos that seems to be the day when the arguments and discussions may be er set yes it is rather yes no i can't get you in to that one. but y you'll be there on the twentieth. i could just turn up and say, oh am i a day too early? shame to go back, i'll stay today as well. you'll have to be play it very carefully on the er on the thursday and not look as if you , yeah you can nod, what you do is you, when you nod ah but! i'll kick you under the table or something. yeah. yes. two kicks to shut up and one kick to speak. yes. oh. so we shall see. we haven't got er i mean obviously a lot of the staff that are on these temporary contracts are from the adult team. mm. and er that is obviously going to contract because you'll have seen the, the note that went round saying that, you know we haven't got as much money for that next year. mm. what ab you know the posts that we've got funded through y t on action plans? yeah. is that, is any news, is that just gonna continue at the moment, what's happening there? jane's been talking to paul about it and he's being very non committal because of this y t s t m review right. you see? but he's hopeful that it will continue. so they, that funds the best part of a careers officer mm i see. and, and that has been integrated across a county into the establishment which is why i'm sort of saying mm. you know, we should have more than just we've never had half of that in the past. we h we did prior to the m s u review. and when m s u did their review that post just got yeah. integrated across the county. it shouldn't have done because it was extra funding it should have been left out but they made yeah. a mistake and included it in. oh right. so but mm. you see there's clear evidence on that because the number of action plans that are completed mhm. mm. yes still, still erm jane gave me the figures and as i say this division is about forty seven percent. but following on from that number of second and thirds and fourths that are done? exactly. well one assumes that that pattern and you know i mean oh yes i see what you mean yeah. that the load is more than just the initial action of my division probably do a, a fourth yeah. you know the second time. yeah. but if you do it in twenty three you're talking about doing that's right, yeah. you know whatever. but the proportions mm. are, are the same but i see the point that you're making is that the workload isn't just the initial action plan. action plan. yeah. not at all, i mean they can be done in three times. that's right mhm. yeah. five in some cases. are they? yeah i was going to say, a few are aren't they? that's worth mentioning isn't it? well this is another thing i raised with keith that i yeah, but they only pay for the first one. yeah. has the time in that division has to put in but there isn't adequate funding for, for yeah but that was proportional you could proportion it yeah but proportionate across the county wouldn't it? still. you need to, it needs to be based on initial one because that's yes. where the funding is. but what i'm saying is the more you do of first ones the more you'll do a second ones. oh that's right, yes yes. but the proportion'll be the same? but it's still proportional isn't it? yeah yeah. yeah, is that my pen by the way? it is not it was given to me by a nice gentleman from napier college doing oh he c e t. plays this trick cath, don't fall for it. no i, i, i had one like that, i really liked that and it just looked like that. you probably had one like that, i've got about twenty in the c drawer at home. he retired after the last c e t and he gave me all his pens and stuff. alright, okay. plus they've changed the name it's not a polytechnic any more. yeah that's yes quite a lot of them. redundant he's liaison officer for the polytechnic he's not at . which polytechnic was it? napier. oh oh well. which is a good idea . oh i know the man you mean now. yes. nice man yes. such a sweetie. erm anyway back to the er what we were talking about. sorry about that. oh yes i know what i was going to say, something else i mentioned to keith was that one of the busiest members of staff that we've got in many ways i think is gail . and that she, you know her, her, since she's taken on this special needs and i think before with colette as well, that this special needs role has really mushroomed. mm mm. and that i, i wouldn't be adverse, i know it means you know you, you, if you put s some extra into one thing you've got to take it away from somewhere else, but i, i, i would be quite happy to see them look at special needs and whether we actually need even more careers officer time for that. mm i think the thing with that was it was to some extent clouded before wasn't it? mm. because colette could be flexible with a wide e p yes. that's right. and, and do it yes. yeah. as, as required. yes. whereas gail's more definite commitments she can't be as flexible. or if you had a person that was just half time maybe doing it. mm. but it's been really hard for her to juggle. there is the er the other way of looking at this that you can either change the er sort of c o balance or you can give her some clerical time, because if she can identify clerical work i mean like diane mm. erm who helps woody helps, helps jackie yeah erm used to help colette a little bit. mm does she no longer help gail? and i was trying to explore this, i haven't had time to explore mm. this, to see whether diane can help gail as well cos if gail said, fine i can then start identifying some of my work which i can then tr train diane up to do, you know phone calls and stuff and things, yeah. which will really take a lot of time. mm. well it makes sense cos it must be jackie's . well that's right. and so we could possibly you know just increase diane's time a little bit, which would really help gail. mm mm. and that may be the answer mm. i'm not sure. monica's section is, i don't know how fair it is, but a lot of the pressure that was previously on steve and before him on margaret has actually gone to gail's post. yeah. mm. mm and a lot of the pressure because it's the peripheral thing isn't it? it's, it's the, the it's the follow up it's the phone calling yeah. and the follow up of cases yeah. that needs to be time consuming it's, it's jackie now in a sense that, it's a bit easier for her to s to say, this client is definitely mine,i i this client clearly has a special need, whereas gail's dealing with the peripheral ones, mm have they got a problem or not? yeah and it's more the job-seeker side yes. than, than the follow up that's right. th than the f e side. mm mm. yeah. so. what do you think sylvia? cos you have been involved with special needs here hmm. and i mean i know gail has had difficulty in having much of an input in this office. yeah, i don't know really sue i mean er i'm not sure it's, it's difficult to say how, how it's changed really the thing is that it, in this office we, we tend to pick 'em up between sylvia and myself really yeah. because of the experience mm. here that's right. that gail, gail does the, the spot in the college. mm. erm th that's another thing you see i, i don't really know what work is done in selby mm. to be honest. no. cos they're mainly in college because never any any contact. it's, it's rarely that gail, i don't think i've ever seen gail in here. mm. th i mean she might have been in and out of she just pops in to pick units up but she just pops in to pick units up basically. but erm so, so it's difficult to know exactly what's happening now, and unless i see it in the office. but it's like the residential school ones like from and places like that. they actually make an appointment for, for for, well i've seen 'em yeah yeah yeah. because they're returning to the area. they what's available in the area so i've, i've seen them that's right yeah. erm so i don't think there is a, the role required in the selby area in the same sense and no no no i think one of the things we need to look at when we look at case loads is whether gail is the appropriate person to be dealing with the college? i think we've mentioned this before? mm yes, yeah. erm and i've already sounded julie out about that. we've got to find ways of reducing gail's workload next year. yeah definitely. but she's, she's got to relinquish a few things herself. that's part of the problem really. that's true cos i've er she's always been an industrious hard-working careers officer yes and there's no getting away from it. yeah. doing more than's expected of her. yeah. mm. erm i, i just get this feeling, you know one would expect that year eleven is a reasonable way of working out what the, the sort of workload is, and you would think that special needs would actually be something that really related quite nicely mm. to year eleven, but i just seem to get the feeling that we, we do they give extra weighting for special needs? yes we, our, our wh what? funding is on a three times. three to one ratio, yes. you see when steve used to erm come down to selby i mean there were, there were occasions when i used to go into the college with him and sit in on some of his interviews. mm. so that when the kids left th they knew who i was right. and he used to come in here and, and if it, if y t or, or jobs you know whatever it was going to be, they, they all come in and they knew who steve is yes. and that's going back sort of three yes. three years or so. but that probably stopped when i started going in didn't it? yes yeah. and, and we've not actually invested that time back in. that's right, yeah. er what about jackie, does she come down here at all? now and again, she came in the other day to meet a, a yes she does, young lad, to interview him. mm. it's occas very occasionally. it's occasionally, mm. it's very very occasionally, it's normally to see a one-off. yes. yeah. cos she showed up, a lot of them show tendency at home or er say some of the ones she's just asked us to see in the office anyway. and she got to school in fact and actually wanted, there's one and two at braydon i know that she's and there's one that we're picking up which, which sylvia's gonna go to a case conference next week, social services. erm who was one of hers who returned to the area is in wetherby at the moment. mm. but he's due to come out. th the big growth area in this seems to be, have been the post sixteen, the f e, special needs, cos that's gail's biggest problem in york, two really big mm. c p v e courses. mm. but part of that problem is that i don't think the course tutors do perhaps as much as they might, i mean they do nowhere near as much as shirley does shirley. in mm. selby. and it's difficult you know where we're having to make, fill gaps that really aren't ours to fill mm. in a sense yes. but gail can't do her job properly unless she actually does that. that's right. er anyway moving on, just a couple more things were on this agenda. it's twenty to twelve, erm y d p just really erm having now come to an end. keith obviously is still continuing because s again some money was found to keep his, to keep paying him for another few months. i'm not sure exactly what he is doing erm isn't he investigating erm training projects. training projects? i think he could be, yeah. yeah, i know that was part of his . yeah. erm he's actually reporting to the may c s m t about the y d p, presenting his final report that should be interesting. on the y d p. so erm i don't know what will happen to him when his money runs out. mm. erm mm. mm. i don't want to say anything about this at all just bite your tongue kev because if i say anything i'm just keeping quiet here. well i think that it's, it's a shame that the y d p did come to an end really, because i mean i know there are a lot of problems with it, but i think that keith was doing a fairly good job of trying to resolve some of them yes. and that we do, training credits are going to come mm mm mm. and everybody seems to keep burying their head in the sa well when i say everybody i mean the tech particularly are burying their head in the sand, they don't seem to want to invest anything in preparing for, they're called youth credits now aren't they? erm but before we know it they will be on top of us. mm. but the,th when we had the y d p conference at scarborough, valerie was saying that the government was looking at career education. and the way she was talking it looked like they were gon they were going to put some more and invest some time, money ah. into careers education in the, in the schools er did it? in, in, in anticipation of training credits. erm because people were saying you know the y d p's coming to an end but yeah you know what, what next yeah. but she'd already partially answered that question by saying, right. yeah okay it's being looked at. i mean whether they decide to do anything mm. on it is another matter. can i just ask you, what date is it for training credits starting? it's ninety six. yeah they actually but that is the leaving, that is the,th that date is the for school leavers school leavers that leave in ninety six. ninety six will actually have training credits? yeah, so unless you've started doing something ninety five. from at least the previous september. ninety four. yeah. in fact yes it's ninety four isn't it? cos you're actually preparing for the credits bef the year, the academic year before aren't you? and is it just, i mean does training credits just go through year eleven or is there preparation work in year ten for it? that depends on, i mean talking about action planning and contract with the government, at that stage i suppose, won't it? i depend on how they decide to fund you. whether you're funded on year eleven or year ten. yeah or post sixteen which seems to be the flavour of the month at the moment because of the high drop out. which seems a but cock-eyed somehow to me. mhm. mm. there's a lot of unknown at the moment so we're in ninety three ninety four we've got about a year and a bit before we actually have to start really doing something that, i mean they're setting up the county working, a county working group again aren't they? yeah. er i was just trying work out when robert left school and whether he would be the first lot, but he won't be. mm. ah, no little guinea pigs. just trying to work it out in my head he'd be mm. leaving ninety five,. year nine now so he'd just make it so it must be the year more before. yeah. if he's year nine now . yeah. yeah it's a it's an l e a wide working group isn't it? hmm. that paul is actually on himself i think. yes. is this national then? oh and it's, it's l e a tech mm. isn't it? is it? yes yes it all go together then they'll be some sort of erm well yeah but you see that the trouble is they've been now two if not three pilot phases phases, yeah. and there can't be that many authorities left that aren't already involved. so i don't think there will be a big national impact, it'll just be the last few people coming in at the tail end. well there's only sort of erm i mean who else is round here doing it? i mean bradford went for the initial bradford yeah and and kirklees their, their recent recruitment was for that wasn't it? that's what mm mm. got a job after. i mean my impression is that the resource has come in on this, i mean extra staffing, i mean you need it you can't do it without, well they put actually there's money coming in this. yeah they put additional money in on the pilots but yeah. whether they'll actually put additional money in when it becomes that's right. yeah. you usually get more money to pilot something you see mm like t v e i. yes. mm. the earlier stages of something yeah. because once it's, it happens erm it sort of, it becomes law doesn't it really? because if it's written into reforms and so on. then you know if you've got to do it they're not going to actually give you any more resources to do it because you can't say no. that's what the teachers are talking about at the moment aren't they? the national curriculum mm. same sort of thing. should never gone back to blanket . have blanket interviewing now haven't we? well there's a lot of there is a lot of, there are a lot of things that are pointing to this at the moment. erm there's a, a, one of the other things on any other business that i was just gonna come to was a thematic survey, that is being carried out nationally. alan and i spent all morning on wednesday trying to complete this survey questionnaire that ask questions about erm how much time do careers officers in north yorkshire spend, for example, teaching careers lessons ? we decided to put that none of our careers officers spend any time teaching careers lessons, that we deliver guidance through classroom situations and things like this, but we do not teach careers. erm because we realized it was politically loaded that mm. you know you send a form back that says we teach careers lessons, immediately you're told, right you can stop doing that, that's not your job to do that. mm, so you have to really be careful with oh yes but this questionnaire was absolutely incredible and every service nationally and wales and ireland have been asked to complete it. scotland seem to have got away with it at the moment. erm right. the questions like ev everything that you've got to say how much time is spent on it and then how much does that cost you. and it's really to provide, according to derek , it's to provide the secretary of state with some ideas of costings of, if she decides the new careers services to run careers conventions, she would make that part of the specification and she would know how much that that was likely to cost her. mm. so she's really sort of getting her plans together, her information base together to getting on with what you should be doing that can only see a few people doing that who are actually getting on with what they should have been doing while you are waiting. now you know that this lesson's particularly difficult for me to be here on time. i come from one room to a from a long er way a way to another room. so i expect you to have the things out and . right let's get straight on see if you can answer my question. phillip. so what did my question mean? what was i asking you kieran? what day is it is it today. what day is it today. good. and the answer is it's wednesday. what do you think my question means first of all, richard? what date is it today. good boy, well done you remembered that very well. what date is it today? now we've only done this one or two times. let me help you . we start off with the same two words every time. can anybody remember what those two words are? what do we begin with? kieran. the number what it is today . well we start we start we do put the number in but we start off with . now we have the number and today is the twelfth so we've got to think of number twelve. christopher. and now we simply have to think of the name of the french month. louise just put your pen down and join with this please. katrina. look at the board please i want all eyes on the board. let's try another date. who'd like to tell me when their birthday is? when's your birthday jo josephine? july. oh yeah, what's the date? well just tell me in english first of all and then july. we'll work it out. what july though? fifteenth the second the third. fifth. the fifth. all right so which two words are we going to start with? now all you have to do is think of number five for me, cos you just say the number. and what's july in french? all right now before we do any more dates put your hands down and we'll have a few more birthday dates in a bit. but i need to practice with you counting up to thirty one. why do i need to practice that with you counting numbers up to thirty one? christopher? so you can tell date properly. that's right. because some months have got thirty one days in other months have got thirty days in and one month has only got twenty eight days in and twenty nine in a leap year. let's see who remembers this little rhyme, it's not a french rhyme but it is a rhyme that you may have heard before. thirty days hath september april june and november all the rest have thirty one except for february alone which has twenty eight days clear and twenty nine in each leap year. so these are the months that only have thirty days, september april june and november. those are days months with thirty days. so all the other months have thirty one. so put your hands up, how many days has january, this month? thirty one. now children am i right in thinking that when mrs came in and took some lessons with you when i was on a course that she taught you how to count up to thirty? no. you haven't been you haven't done that with mrs . right well that's something we need to do now. so we need to practice our numbers from twenty up to thirty one. so let's start and let's count aloud up to twenty to start with shall we? well i'm going to put twenty there where we've put the tens and i'm going to start shh . twenty one it's easy to remember. put your hand up if you can tell me number one in french. easy-peasy. well twenty one french people say twenty and one twenty and one. now twenty two is so they don't say twenty and two it's only on the ones like twenty one thirty one forty one that you say twenty and one thirty and one. for the rest it's just like english numbers they say so hands up who can work out what twenty three will be. hands up don't call out please. richard. who'd like to tell me what twenty four will be? stacey. good girl. who can tell me what twenty five will be? lee. all right. i think more people are getting the idea of this now. who'd like to tell me what twenty six will be, remember you're saying and then the num next number? jody. come on nearly everybody ought to be able to work this one out now. eleanor. that's lovely. can you all tell me together what twenty eight will be? so twenty nine will be? you've got it well done that's lovely. now thirty is a new number. thirty is excuse me. so, can anybody work out what thirty one will be. remember that is twenty and twenty one is is thirty so what will thirty one be, steven? good boy. who can put their hand up and tell me the next number? who can tell me thirty two? gemma? who can tell me the next number. i'm looking for somebody who hasn't had their hand up this lesson, jennifer? i'll do it. well let's see if you can do this one then. right if you can do it join in, put your hand up. who can tell me what thirty four will be, adam? who'd like to tell me what thirty five will be? donna can you do this one for me? what's the number five? have you forgotten that one. you help her with katrina. no that's who'd like to tell me thirty six? christopher. phillip? right. you can all do this next one together. now i have gone beyond thirty one because i just wanted to show you the way it goes and it's easy. there obviously aren't more than thirty one days in a month but we'll just practice then counting from twenty now and we'll stop at thirty nine all right now that we can do numbers up to thirty one, let's see if we can do a few more dates. turn your chairs round so you're looking at this board. hands up if you remember what two words we're going to begin our answer with. kendal would you like to bring your chair over. rachael can you see the board from where you're sitting. if you can't bring your chair over. kendal just bring your chair over. come round and see the board. what are the two words please louise? well look at this board look at my first two i've done here as an example. okay, now let's have somebody else's birthday. katrina? twenty eighth of december. right let's see if we can work this out together. she said it's the twenty eighth and the month is december. so we think of number twenty eight first of all. stacey? and the month was december. who'd like to tell me that? steven. listen then repeat. jennifer i don't want to see the back your head any more. i know you're doing your french work sheet but turn round and put that down now. it's time to do this work. much better. who'd like to, kieran tell me your birthday. well done kieran he had already worked his out good boy. can anybody else do that? can anybody else think of their birthday in french? jody. well let's help jody then. twenty ninth of december. right what's twenty nine children? hands up if you know twenty nine. michael? good boy. and it's the same month as that again. who's birthday was this. was that yours kieran? that's not far off now is it? it will be your birthday very soon. jennifer? ah is it the first of the month? right, well good. i'm glad there's somebody's come up with that one because that's the only time that you say something a little bit different from the number itself. when it is the first day, put your hands down while we're ex while i'm explaining this, when you say when it's the first day of any month whether it's the first of february or the first of april or the first of december, instead of say you say this word you say for the first of the month and when you write it as a number it's the only time that you ever put any little letters next to it. the rest of the time you just put the normal number. but for the first of the month you have these two letters e r. all right against the number one. what does that word remind you of? does it remind you of excuse me, does it remind you of a word in english at all? michael. premiere. yes it's like premiere isn't it like in football the premiere league which is the first the top league. or if somebody has a premiere it means it's the first time that they do something. because it's a word that we've borrowed from the french word. we've taken it from their language and we use it in ours now meaning first. richard? put your hands up, tell me what date richard's birthday is. what date is richard's birthday? phillip. twenty ninth of july. the twenty ninth of july good. now i hope you're paying attention because later, next lesson i'm going to give you a little test on these dates a little listening quiz and if you get full marks on that then you get a house point for it. so i do hope that you are taking notice and learning how to do your dates. louise. right what date is louise's birthday please. what date is louise's birthday? come on i'd like to see a few more hands up here. that's not a hard one. michael? not quite sure? lee. eleventh of august. the eleventh of august. you can do the next one all right. do you want to tell me your birthday? do you want to tell me in english then we'll help you. twenty seventh of september. come on who can help stacey. twenty seven, think of your numbers. twenty seven. christopher. september? you can tell me september can't you? now i'm not going to do any more now because i want to play a birthday game with you now okay? so can you move your chairs so that you can stand up quickly. i think because you've been very good today we'll play a numbers game as well if we've got time. right. what's up christopher? didn't carry on that game that we were playing before. did we not finish that one? no was it a game where you had numbers and you had to stand up and say your number? oh i'm sorry there are children shouting out and you know that you don't do that. if you want to ask me something or tell me about something you put your hand up and wait for me to ask you. phillip? we finished it i'm sure we did of course but there's no reason why if we get on that we shouldn't start another one okay. here we go then. you remember what to do don't you? ready. i'm going faster now are you ready? what happened, did we knock the fork off? the arm worked off and it fell down. all right okay. now then will you go back to your own proper seats now and i'm going to give you a number. you have to remember your number. that's a very good idea. tell you what we'll do that next time because i want to practice some numbers now. now then can you go back and sit over at your table? right. now then the faster that we can do this the faster we get on with the game, so you sit quietly please. oh one or two people don't seem to understand quietly. i want to count how many there are today here today. count with me. well that's an odd number so that means there will be ten in one team and eleven in another team and the ten team someone will have to go twice. so remember your number please and unless i tell you to move stay where you're sitting. right good. now jennifer if you'll just move your chair over to this side. who's the best one at numbers in this, i think kieran. right so will you be as well, so you're . now you know the game so i don't need to spend a lot time. when i call out your num oh dear,thank you. when i call out your number you jump up and you say, if you are and i say you say . if i say . let's just make sure you all know your numbers so . joe just put your hand up now just put your hand up i'm just seeing that you remember your number. you're number one aren't you? no just put your hand up remember what i say. is it you donna? that's right now. this side of the room . come on be ready. well he if he was the right one, it was not it was okay. so you were first anyway so that's this one. shh. yes eleanor stood up but lee said it first okay. come on a team let's see you really going for it. oh. well, let's just do let's just do two more and see if the as can can catch up and then we'll carry it on i haven't finished yet, we'll carry the game on and remember the score. both together both together so the scores are so far close. i am waiting and it is not a time for you to be chatting. you should be putting your french folders away now please. standing without talking behind your table. i am still waiting. colleagues just before we er commence with today's business, one or two announcements to make. the first one is that i, i've received a number of complaints about colleagues smoking in the, in conference. are you taking that line because you're in favour or opposed to it ? anyway, it's not a matter for us i know, that er depending on where you sit in conference you can have difficulty seeing the no smoking signs, but i've every confidence you're gonna take my word for this. normally, normally, when it's switched on there's a sign up there. it's not switched on yet, so can somebody switch it on. and equally colleagues there is also, it's true believe me, and normally there's another one up there, a no smoking sign so please be restrained, if only to help me to get through the week with my voice which is usually very bad! er, the other thing is of course colleagues that the doors at the side are, are open for very good reasons and i mentioned yesterday from time to time that once we get er we get talking there's a that goes and colleagues at the side of congress have a great deal of difficulty in hearing and listening to the debate. so please if you feel the need that you need to speak to somebody, please go out of the conference. discipline has been very good indeed so far. thanks very much. now just another couple of things colleagues. you'll remember yesterday that we had the collection for the crawley strikers and that the general secretary, rather, i was gonna say foolishly then, generously er said that we would double whatever was collected. of course after he made that statement he didn't realize that the london region were gonna put a thousand pound in the bucket! yes but such is the life of mice and men. anyway, the collection realized six hundred and thirteen pound, plus the thousand from london. that came to six hundred, sixteen hundred and thirteen and that will be doubled by the c e c. thank you very much. colleagues i've had a message from the strikers at crawley and they've had to return. they want to place on record the generous support that they've had from you and for the , yes in a moment, the seconder of the emergency motion for er moving her support. they've been out a long time colleagues, seventeen weeks. i spoke to them yesterday afternoon after we broke. they appeared to me to be as committed as ever to winning that particular dispute and i'm sure you would wish to send your further best wishes to them colleagues. one other matter before i ask the general secretary i think our colleague might want to say something after the general secretary. erm colleagues who attended the blackpool conference last year will recall that there was, that we had a visit from a young boy called who was the son of one of our officers and that er was suffering from i think i recall a very severe form of leukaemia. i know that some colleagues are aware of this but sadly recently passed away and i must by the colleagues in the midland and east coast region er to thank everybody who put into the er the collection on behalf of the . very sad colleagues, but thank you very much indeed for that. can i now ask the general secretary to say a few words. well just colleagues about the burnsall dispute erm er clearly and i'm just anticipating the views of congress that since we adopted a particularly way of making up the er dispute fund, i think we should certainly adopt exactly the same practice in relation the point of information president mel lancashire region president, conference. i see on the agenda this morning that an invitation has been extended for to come along and speak to us. can the general secretary give this conference assurances that a speaker from timex can come along and address this conference before the end of closing. thank you. yes colleagues, what i will do is this, erm no one will be in this congress for the last three days without knowing the strong feelings on the timex issue. i refer to it in my speech and many others have referred to the terrible situation at timex. if there is an approach for the timex workers to come through the proper channels, i will recommend on behalf of the executive for the standing orders committee that we hear a timex worker before the end of the conference. if the timex worker wants to regard that as a right of reply to neil 's speech, so be it. right colleagues, er on with the business. can i announce that the c e c has informed me that motion eighty four lancashire region due for debate on wednesday afternoon has been withdrawn. motion eighty four has been withdrawn. i'll now turn colleagues to the section secretary's report mick apex partnership, pages twenty nine to thirty four. mick. thank you president. good morning congress. mick national office. i can just remember in the so-called heady days of the early nineteen eighties the then prime minister saying that you would make britain a great trading and a great economic nation once again. but she also said it'd be a nation which did not need a manufacturing industry, nor an industrial base. the britain of the nineteen nineties and beyond, according to her, would be based on a service sector. thousands of jobs created, foreign investment would be forthcoming and what happened? the mines, the steelworks, the shipyards, all killed off and with them communities killed off. but all would be okay, according to thatcher. new jobs would be created in the service sector. in retail, in finance in recreation and in leisure. yes, many jobs were created. part time jobs, low paid jobs, temporary contract jobs, non-unionized jobs. but all the gains that we had made out of labour movement, improvements in working time, improvements in health and safety, equality issues, legal rights all went out of the window, and what has happened to the vast majority of those service jobs? they've gone. the same way as the steel workers, the coal miners and the skilled crafts people. gone and never to return unless we have a government elected which is committed to education, to training, to investment and to the future. it's obscene, in the nineteen nineties at a time of three million plus unemployed that we've still have a skill shortage in this country. we all know that britain will only become a world class economy if we have a strong well-balanced manufacturing base, employing skilled, trained workforce, a workforce which has decent conditions of employment and has legal protection, but we do still have some members within the service sector and within the professional rank and what has happened in the last five or six years to those members? they've seen the introduction of new macho management techniques. they've seen the introduction of performance related pay, personal contracts, new working practices, pay freezes, pay cuts and always the fear of redundancy and all of this has been going on at a time when increasingly companies are withdrawing from national collective agreements, are establishing separate bargaining arrangements, restricting the activities of trade union officials and increasingly de-recognizing trade unions. increasingly we see longstanding and well used recognition of procedure agreements torn up. we've seen new and harsher disciplinary procedures introduced, safety measures ignored and regrettably increases in the number of cases of racial and sexual harassment. we need to ensure that our white collar members have the help and the support and the advice available to them, but that help and that advice needs to be at the right time and at the right place. as more and more decisions are being taken by management at local level, we need to ensure our local representatives have the necessary skills to cope with the new macho management techniques. we need to ensure that our representatives are trained in human resource management, how to combat human resource management. we need to offer advice on performance- related pay, on health and safety issues, on environmental issues. it's been particularly bleak for many workers. many white collar workers thought they were immune to the recession, but congress there are thousands of white collar professional, technical workers out there who need a trade union. a professional trade union with the new knowledge, the skills and the services appropriate to their needs. that is the effective partnership. i commend my report. twenty nine. yes. anybody else who's coming up between twenty nine and thirty four, if you could come down to the rostrum colleagues. well that's me morning jog! morning conference, you all awake? hope you enjoyed yourselves last night. conference, thank you mick, apex is going places, there's no doubt about that. i heard what er john had to say yesterday about the apex membership must accept the conditions of the merger. well we fully accept that john and the reason i get up here under mick's report is under the item number two apex partnership national conference. i tell you why i get up, i get up because i came back from that conference. it was a bit of a disaster in some respects, but in other respects it was a lively vibrant conference. membership expressing real views, real concerns and john if you listen very carefully, it was also about wanting to see a delivery of the promises that were made about the merger. that's what it was about. but there was a brave paper presented to apex conference, a paper on sectionalization. that conference discussed it, discussed it in great detail. they put a lot of effort into it, but i tell you what, if i read access, i would never have believed i was at the same conference. there wasn't a single word mentioned about that particular paper and the very fact that that conference rejected it, because they failed to consult properly with those who were involved in that section and they were very unhappy about the way apex was being fragmented. i was very disappointed that there's no comment in here at all. let's be honest, i didn't wanna see good sections, i wanna see strong sections, i wanna see vibrant sections, but i also want to see the truth in those documents when it comes back afterwards, so i'm disappointed on this issue and er i hope something in future will be done about to report the real things that we discussed at conference as well. thank you conference. bill london region. mick, we took a decision at erm apex conference two years ago erm whereby we decided that er anywhere where we had g m b members we would attempt to ensure that we have recognition with the private security firms used. here we are at er portsmouth g m b congress, we've got, we're using that, well the guildhall are using erm out front. i'd just been talking to the guard, twelve hour shifts, sixty hours a week and he can't even have any time off for tea breaks or meal breaks. erm can we look into that? i do know that we've been trying to get er recognition for about fifteen years with that company but can we pursue that issue? erm, on page thirty you talk about the erm employer's federation in the er minimum terms and conditions, well i'm only hoping that my own firm securicor don't have any er input into that, because er as you know they unilaterally reduced all the terms and conditions securicor guarding and cleaning recently erm i'd like to know when we intend meeting with securicor cleaner i do know you've written to them on a number of occasions and their refusal to meet with us. i also know that you're attempting to get a memorandum of agreement and a recognition agreement with them. erm, i'd like to know an update if possible on the branch secretary's erm restructuring. i know that we're meeting with the company next week, but whether or not anything's come forward on that and also erm in reference to the pensions section, erm, just correct your deliberate mistake and part timers can't enter the securicor pension scheme. page thirty, thirty one, thirty two. yes. ron securicor yorkshire region. er page thirty two about er the guarding company. i mean i don't want anybody to get the wrong idea what it says we've resolved eighty percent of the outstanding grievances. i mean these people have had a pay freeze since november nineteen ninety and these grievances were as a result of a new pay structure last year that actually worsened the terms and conditions since nineteen ninety, but till then we've been making steady progress in getting better improvements and we've gone backwards. securicor have joined the cowboys on the contract guarding and really i mean you must be getting sick of us getting up every time about security guards, but it's an important problem and you must know that a lot of you must work at places where you've got guards on the gate and we all should take a bit of interest in going to see these guards, find out that they're working for two pound or two pound forty an hour, they're working as many hours a week as they'll actually work with no overtime rate, no night rate, no benefits worth having and i mean really i wish you'd go to your companies and try and arrange site allowances, cos that's the only way we'll get any improvements, but when we talk about resolving grievances, we just took in yorkshire region someone to a tribunal for constructive dismissal. well the judgment's deserved on that but we're hoping we're gonna win it and we're hoping that that is a beneficial thing to the other guards, but i wouldn't put any money on it. the final thing is that a review of paying conditions will take place in may nineteen ninety three. we've actually had a delegates conference in april and we meet the company in july and i don't expect any sold the bread waiting for a massive increase in pay. thanks conference. thank you very much thirty three and thirty four. mick. thank you president. with response to kevin, yes the national committee paper on the future structure and organization of the apex partnership was rejected by the conference. there was a full and detailed report put by the central executive committee on that point and, as you are well aware, there are motions for debate this morning in respect of er that particular point. the from london region, yes shorrocks is a cowboy outfit. we've been retrying to get recognition nationally and locally for fifteen years. yeah, lousy pay, lousy hours, lousy conditions. yet another example of why we need regulation and licensing within the industry. unfortunately at long last we are making some progress along that line. bill also makes the comment about securicor. yeah, you're dead right bill. securicor were at one time synonymous with quality for they have paid to be synonymous with quality. they tried to take the cowboys on at their own game. a world leader with the security industry is actually going down to the levels of the one man and a dog outfit. we're meeting in july on the pay and as ron and bill know we are seeking full restoration of the losses in respect of base rates, working time and premium payments. the then secretaries, yes negotiations are ongoing in respect of the company's proposals on restructuring. all the then secretaries have been kept fully involved in those negotiations. the regional secretaries have been advised of the position and regularly updated on the position. i'd made a commitment to the branch secretaries and to the representatives that there will be a full representatives conference of which those proposals will be debated and discussed. i accept the point bill about the error in respect of pensions. i think that covers the points president. thank you. thanks very much mick colleagues i now propose to take motions one hundred and fifty eight sectionalization, motion one hundred and sixty six the apex merger. er and then we'll ask for mick to respond on behalf of the c e c because the c e c are opposing one five eight and accepting one six six with the qualification. so first of all m=motion one five eight south western region to move. good morning congress, president, visitors in the balcony. denise representing bristol and district staff branch and the south west region. could i firstly start by thanking those delegates who after congress yesterday have expressed support about the two rule changes that we lost and to give some encouragement to new delegates here that even if you get up here and you lose it, there's some one hell of a lot of support out there on the floor. thank you. motion one five eight. i note that the c e c is opposing this, but i feel that maybe they've missed the points and the branch should actually take some responsibility for this because the wording could be better, we concede that point. the motion isn't actually asking for each individual member to be sent a questionnaire and to say where would you like to be because obviously that is totally ridiculous. people who are in one particular workplace and that workplace makes up the branch, then it's clear from the sort of jobs that they do which section they should be in. but if you're in a general branch such as i am, which is made up from people of all sorts of industries that have come together because none of us are large enough to have a branch within our own industry on our own, then which section do we go to? it's not always necessarily obvious. and who makes that decision where we should go? delegates in this room from apex may recognize me as someone that used to get up and say i was representing apex public service and management branch. it might automatically be assumed that because that was the name of our branch, we should be in the public service section and that it why we've changed the name of the branch to bristol and district staff because we are an odds and sods branch. we didn't want there to be any confusion so that people would automatically put us all into public services, because the majority of our members shouldn't be in that section. surely the best way for members needs to be attended to is for them to actually make the decisions on which section's relevant to them. we're not talking about individual members saying i wanna go here or i wanna go there, we're talking about groups of memberships within these sorts of branches. surely the needs of the members should come before the administrative easiness of putting people into sections for the union and as i've said who better to judge where they need to go and what their needs are than the members themselves. congress has already discussed the fact that we're very concerned about the drop in membership. providing a service to our members is absolutely paramount and we need to show them that we are considering their needs in which section we put them in. as i've already said, we agree that the wording could have been better. the c e c when they're talking about motions sometimes say that they accept them with the qualification and i'd like to say to congress this morning will you accept a qualification from the branch moving this to say that we are talking about groups of members and their needs not individuals? the members' case must come first, otherwise everyone is gonna be put into the odds and sods section which is apex, because it hasn't got a subject such as public services or energy and utilities. we want apex as kevin has already said to be a real section, not where everyone gets pushed because the name of their branch or there's nowhere else to put them. i urge you to support this motion. one five eight seconded. one five eight seconded. formally seconded. thank you very much. motion one six six apex merger liverpool region. formally moved and you've formally seconded. thank you very much. you did that twice peter you can do that. i call mick to put the c e c point of view. thank you president. congress, the central executive asks you to, the central executive accepts motion one six six with a qualification. however the c e c is asking you to vote against motion one five eight. the qualification to motion one six six is that the c e c believe we should prepare a paper on relationship between apex partnership and all other sections of the union, not just the public services section. in other words we should examine the whole subject, not just one important part of it. in respect of motion one five eight, the c e c is opposed because it is based upon a misunderstanding of the purposes of sectionalization. this union faces strong competition in almost every sector in which it organizes. in order that we can respond, we must organize ourselves, industry and by sector. that means making what might have to be some very difficult decisions affecting longstanding practices and even loyalties that have developed over many years. we cannot leave it to the of individual members, that would produce chaos and could leave to destructive manoeuvring. the membership of each section is clearly defined by rule. the c e c and the regional committees have ample discretion to, to fine tune in certain areas. so we are urging you to vote against one five eight and accept one six six with the qualification outlined. i don't go anywhere without a fight congress. you've heard my explanation of the fact that it was poorly worded and i think that is a great shame. i'll be talking later on in congress about the fact that we could perhaps bring amendments and that would help the wording on things. please think of our membership, think of what their needs are. yes, we're in competition and we want to be able to say to our members don't go to that trade union because they will put you all in one lump, go to this one because we've got sections, because we look at our members with individual needs and please support this motion. thank you. colleagues i propose to take the vote one five eight as mick's indication is being opposed by the c e c. all those in favour of one five eight against that's lost. motion one six six has been accepted. all those in favour against that's carried. colleagues we're now going to the transport debate and there are five motions listed here. motion three one four london region to move. composite eighteen g m b scotland and london to second. motion three one six birmingham region to move. motion three one eight midland region to move. motion three one nine midland region to move again. so colleagues if the moves of motion three one four er would come down and move their motion and with other colleagues if they would come down to the rostrum please it would save time. president, congress, dave southend branch london region moving motion three one four british rail privatization. congress, this country gave the world football, cricket and railways. we are now in the second division of world football and world cricket. the railways are now in division three and the government's plan is to take them into the non-league. at the moment we have old and dirty trains which are expensive to use, with many rural towns without a railway at all through years and years of underfunding. so what is this crazy useless government's answer, extra funding? no. privatizing what is the first thing the government do to make b r more attractive to the private sector? announces a huge redundancy programme that will lead erm which will result in a lot more unstaffed stations and a hell of a lot less maintenance. now let's look at some facts that the lying tories won't tell you. our rail network is the lowest funded, the lowest staffed and has the lowest investment programme in europe with the poorest quality service and the fastest declining level of safety, but b r has the highest fares. since nineteen eighty three the government has reduced financial support by over two billion pound and reduced staff by seventy thousand, resulting in less maintenance and falling safety standards and with, as i said higher fares, but fewer services. now i ask you, do you think that a privatized network that has to pay a divided to investors will lead to a better, safer, cleaner, cheaper railway? of course not, in fact it will probably be the reverse with even higher fares, less if any off-peak services and maybe closures of unprofitable lines. the government plan to help private operators by robbing the railworkers' pension fund of millions of pounds to subsidize their operations for passenger and freight on a scale that b r have never ever known. this has got to be immoral if not illegal! it is obvious the way the railway should move forward not privatization but a reversal of the underfunding and a move to a total commitment of higher financial support. if richard branson wants to run trains, let him build a network and, and compete against a properly funded british rail. congress, the vote in the house of commons was lost unfortunately, but our sponsored mps must ensure that the opposition in the house of lords fights this ridiculous legislation as vigorously as possible, and we must support our brothers and sisters in b r with their fight. congress i move. thank you. dave london region seconding the motion on rail privatization. colleagues once again we see the tories operating an example of what i call fag packet policies. policies driven not by realism or efficiency, but based on dogs simply on dogma. they make them up as they go along. it's very difficult to find any support at all for rail privatization outside a handful of ministers. even tory mps are against it and have to be whipped into line to get it through parliament. the effect of privatization will have a wide range of effects. for the staff it will mean job losses as lines are cut and worse conditions as more and more work goes out to contract. today we learn of nine hundred job losses at what used to be b r e l in the engineering section. for us the customers, it will mean higher fares and fewer services as unprofitable and social services are cut and this is only if we are left a train service at all. i come from norfolk and with privatization many rural lines will be cut as the private sector being as unattractive and unprofitable. transport organizations predict that only the three main lines to london will be left and only those with a peak service. services which provide trains for both rural villages and holidaymakers will be cut. the lines under threat ipswich to yarmouth, norwich yarmouth, the north norfolk link, they may all go. train spotting in east anglia will take on a whole new meaning. cuts have already begun to as the british rail cow has fattened up. in king's lynn where i live the freight line to the docks has now been closed. this has forced fifty thousand tons of coal traffic and ten thousand tons of toxic chemical traffic onto east anglia's already congested roads. chemicals that in the common market are not allowed to travel by road, they're forced on to rail. when the minister of the environment was contacted to help in putting pressure on b r, the council were told why were they contacting him, it was not a matter that he was interested in. the department of transport, they were very little help, we contacted them and after initial propaganda visits, we were told that sixty thousand tons of traffic wasn't worth bothering about it wasn't large enough to warrant any help or subsidy. this is, this is the way it will go and will continue to go. the people in rural areas train lines are, are an essential way to move around communities. for many people without that they will simply be isolated in their own small communities. colleagues, i urge you to reject the dogma, look at the practical integrated policy and support the motion. composite eighteen floods of convenience g m b scotland to move. mr chairman, colleagues, david g m b scotland composite motion eighteen floods of convenience. colleagues, the parliament of the european community and of the united kingdom have seriously considered the consequences of the spillage of eighty five thousand tons of oil from oil tanker which ran aground on the coast of the shetland islands on the fifth of january nineteen ninety three and for a considerable time socialists of the european parliament have been complaining incessantly for greater safety at sea. although they have gained the support of the majority of mps, but when the submission reached the council of ministers, they unfortunately find that their representations have been shelved. quite recently, the european parliament have been calling for oil ships which do not meet e e c standards to be expelled from community waters. also ships carrying dangerous cargoes in sensitive waters, for example an area similar to where the went ashore or perhaps the dover straits where cargo collisions have been reduced by eighty percent since radar surveillance was introduced. colleagues, great credibility should go to john prescott, shadow transport secretary, who has demanded that all foreign registered tankers should provide details of routes when they set off from port so that all operators can be dealt with. not surprisingly however, john mcgregor the transport secretary, although he did not oppose john prescott's submissions, made it quite clear that this would be extremely expensive. colleagues action of this nature should not be measured in terms of money. only last week we saw a collision in the channel at a real cost, eight seamen's lives. chair, colleagues, i ask conference to support composite motion eighteen. thank you. don london region seconding composite eighteen. president, congress, brothers and sisters, the issue here is very, really very simple. we want the e e c to enforce laws at least along the lines imposed by the u s a after the exxon valdez disaster. these are not perfect they're only a starting point. they include a greater control of shipping and the use of double skin hulls for dangerous cargoes. there's a certain irony here in the fact that the world leader in free market philosophy should be the one to try and bring some regulation into this area, because that's the problem here, almost complete deregulation the use of convenient ships, low skilled, low paid er exploited often third world workers, used and abused by ship owners the world over to increase their profit margins, with a subsequent lack of concern over both the environment and people's lives. as my comrade from scotland says john prescott has done a good job here, but i have to say it's not up against very much. after both the disaster and the sinking in the channel last week, the government will lord did you know he's the shipping minister? hardly is! after every question on oil tankers, he talked about how they started to put passenger ferries safer. if ever there was an example which helped the case for the abolition of the house of lords, then he is it, but that's another resolution for another day. we talked yesterday about a lot about europe about the importance of workers' rights in europe, but here we can expand upon this. use the e c's political and financial muscle to bring about proper registered and regulated bulk carriers. maybe our meps could help here. support this motion, it's important that free marketeers aren't given licences to destroy our environment. aye seconds. motion three one six single european market birmingham region to move. congress, fellow delegates, president. val birmingham region. moving motion three one six single european market. it is with regret and concern that i find myself moving to this resolution since the members as members of the european community want would like to have been possible to travel freely between members states. however, this is not the case as some of our partners are operating tours for coaching, coaches passing through their borders. this motion was triggered by a particular case which happened within the birmingham region on the first of january nineteen ninety three which should have been a start of the european market the people's europe. twenty five coaches with one thousand three hundred passengers returning from christmas break in austria were met with blunt piece of discrimination which broke communities laws. when entering germany you are supposed to pay a toll which is only charged to non-german coach operators. a warsaw based european holiday coach company were supposed to pay seven thousand four hundred and fifty pounds as a toll which in itself was an illegal act of discrimination. now it is, now this matter has been taken up on behalf of the company, by the constitutary european member of parliament john tomlinson and colleagues. i have here correspondence that has been exchanged between mr. tomlinson and the european commission and german president. anybody wants some copies i have a few copies here. however, it seems that as far as i can make out from the correspondence, the commissionaires are split in their opinion as to the legality of action of the german government. colleagues, this is simply not acceptable and i call on congress to support this resolution and instruct the e c to raise the matter in the proper government departments. i understand that c e c's accepting this motion and asking for remittance for further consultation. i agree. i move the motion. thank you. er, it's not quite correct that that's a new one accepting er and then referring. we're actually gonna be asking for reference, but we're gonna have a look at it and the c e c's people will make that clear. okay? er is that seconded three one six? formally seconded. thank you very much. motion three one eight, full car licence new drivers midland region to move. john midlands and east coast region moving motion three one eight. brothers and colleagues statistics show that the majority of car accidents are mainly within the first year of people passing their driving test. at present a person can take a few driving lessons and pass a driving test and he is then free to purchase any type of car they can afford, regardless of how powerful that car is. it doesn't matter that they have very little experience driving cars on our road. as soon as they pass their driving test, they can get out of the supervised test car and hop into a two or three litre car and off they go down the road to possibly death and destruction. some of them are capable and sensible drivers, but as the records show there are those who not only put their own lives at risk, but that of others as well. at present there are people who choose to display a green learner plate for a period of time after they have passed their test, but this is only optional and may lead to other coloured learner plates being sold which then may not be taken seriously. i believe that we should support the principle of a universal sign which identifies the status of the driver as an important step forward to ensuring safety on our roads. this union has always been at the forefront of health and safety issues within the many industries that we represent. health and safety also applies on our roads and bearing in mind, we may be acquiring a large transport section, we should be seen to take an interest in not only our members' safety, but the safety of others as well. in the interest of road safety colleagues, i ask that you support the motion. thank you. president, conference, ken midlands and east coast region seconding motion three one eight. conference, if you think back to all those times that you have sat at home watching the news after a day's work like i have, and listen carefully to what is being said, you may well have been horrified and saddened to hear the many stories appertaining to people who have had accidents or died due to the fact that the machine they have been driving has been too powerful. by obtaining the full car licence, you are able to buy a vehicle which is and can be a lethal weapon in the hands of wrong people, but this motion calls for constraints to be placed upon people when they obtain that full licence and at twelve hundred c c you can have enough power as well as enjoy the driving for the future. we should be looking to educate and train all people a lot more than we do at the moment where driving is concerned, so that from the very moment you pass your test you can feel confident, other people can feel confident and we can all have confidence on the road. conference, to have a sign in the front and rear of your car may help all new drivers to understand that as a new driver you are entering a system that we are not aware of, speed, which is associated with many other items causes the very things that we work in our day-to-day lives under health and safety to stop. accidents. conference, please support i second. motion three one nine. president, congress and the delegates guests. owen , midland and east coast region. moving motion three one nine. congress, it's against the law in this country to ride a bicycle without lights during the hours of darkness. so why are they not fitted to all new pedal cycles during manufacturing? the law has not been adhered to in the recent years, as it was in the past and every night when you're out you usually see more than one cyclist driving without lights, often on the pavement. this causes an hazard to the pedestrians. the modern cycle has enormous gears and other fitments for riding on all types of roads and usually no fitted lights. i stopped a cyclist recently, he weren't very big by the way who was showing no lights. when i asked him why he said it would spoil the looks of his bicycle to have them fitted now. that's a cycle that cost him over two hundred pounds and it would cost him more money to have lights fitted now as an extra. if lights were fitted as a standard requirement during manufacturing of pedal cyclists they could be made to blend in with the colour scheme of the cycle. a major campaign was launched regarding the wearing of cycle helmets and there has been a great response, favourable response to this, cutting down enormously under a number of fatal accidents involving pedal cyclists. so it's now up to congress to pressurize the manufacturing of cyclists, of cycles to fit rare and rear lights. sorry, to, i'll say that again to fit front and rear lights during production thus cutting down the number of accidents involving cyclists not showing lights during the hours of darkness even farther. in the meantime congress, we call upon the police to enforce their powers on cycles, cyclists riding without lights during the hours of darkness. now i urge you to support. thank you very much. i'll try not to be as shaky this morning. whitecliffe , national race committee, south western region. yesterday i handed you a message regarding er the request renewed to make a statement over the phrase black wednesday, a phrase that was coined by john smith two days after the event. you have not made that statement. there are four members of the national race committee here today and i tell you now whitecliffe if you do not make the statement whitecliffe we will walk out of conference whitecliffe thank you aye er, whitecliffe, it's not a point of order because the point of order has no relevance to this particular debate it has no relevance to this debate but it has whitecliffe plenty of relevance to the black membership of this union whitecliffe. whitecliffe. the point of order has no relevance to this particular debate. i will make the statement at the appropriate time to congress. we've got the statement here. don't come back. the statement is here the statement will be made. second the resolution list. midlands and east coast region. with the increase in public transport costs, road tax and insurance, more and more people are changing to the humble bike as an alternative form of transport. in nineteen seventy nine their sales topped the one and a half million mark. in nineteen ninety two this has risen to two point two million and the indications are the ninety three figures are going to be much higher. in fact told me this is an expanding market. as the favour, biking cannot be beaten, the cost of the average bike is between ninety nine pounds and one hundred and ninety nine pounds. if you compare that cost with the average cost of public transport, you will realize you can soon recoup your initial inlay outlay within six months and unlike cars there are no parking problems. on the debit side biking can be positively dangerous, that is why in nineteen eighty nine congress passed a motion calling for the provision of cycleways. i move that resolution and on i've yet to see any evidence of them. delegates i ride a motorbike, so i am familiar with the hazards faced by cyclists, i am also too well aware of the lack of road sense of some cyclists. i'm aware of most of the crazy things they do. they could give kamikaze pilots some lessons! so i tend to give them a wide berth wherever possible. however, much harder to anticipate is their sudden appearance in front of you from nowhere in the dark with lights on and it's not just kids, it's adults who should know better. it's no good depending as owen said waiting for people to fit lights themselves, they won't because they don't think accidents can happen to them. one accident is one too many. please support this resolution. conference wish to put a point of view on several of these motions and i call frank . frank responding for the c e c and motions three one four, three one six, three one eight, three one nine and composite eighteen. congress, the c e c has asked me to accept motion three one four and composite eighteen to refer motions three one six and three one eight and to accept motion three one nine. on motion three one four british rail privatization. this government has got to be really be joking with its proposals for example the west coast line from north to south is estimated to require in the region of eight hundred million to cover track repairs and modernization as well as outdated rolling stock and signal replacements. all the speeds will have to be reduced for all rolling stock used on that line which will increase the cost for uses of the of that service. because of privatization plans, british rail hasn't got any rolling stock on order. if they won't order the stock, do they really expect a new franchisee to do it? i don't think they will. at least not when i'm passing on that cost to you the users and as any cost increase will decrease the use of further track closures will follow. another example is from region rail which is a totally independent system but over the years the five local authorities have ploughed millions of pounds of investment into improving a system, the stations the track and the rolling stock which in accordance with the rail bill will be put out of franchise next year but will anyone have to buy it? no. the company that requires us to pay out the smallest subsidy will be given the franchise and allow to use or probably allow to decay a facility that's been established over the years while it takes its profit and distributes them to its shareholders. on composite eighteen what more needs to be said? this system is used to reduce wages, increase company profits and totally undermine training and health and safety procedures for crews and provide hazards for all the countries around whose coast they sail with the death and environmental problems that follow from accidents such as occurred in the past week. lives should be, and are, more important than profits through exploitation. motion three one six refers to tolls on passengers. it appears that german states are opposing a vat-like tax on in an inconsistent way, aggravated, aggravated by a failure to warn of any increase in the tax in january nineteen ninety three. i would ask you to refer this motion so we can investigate the background more closely. in the view of the c e c motion three one eight has wide implications for a transport industry as a whole and alternate safety measures need to be examined. however, we have no difficulty with the idea that cycles should be fitted with lights. should many cyclists ignore this law or are hurt as a result, it's always possible for lights to be removed if necessary. colleagues the c e c is asking you to accept motion three one four and composite eighteen to refer motion three one six and three one eight and to accept motion three one nine. thank you. thanks frank. conference i propose to take the vote three one four is being accepted by the executive. all those in favour against. that's carried. composite eighteen is being supported by the executive all those in favour against that's carried motion three one six reference is being sought does birmingham agree? conference agree? thanks very much. motion three one eight reference is being sought does midland agree? thanks very much. conference agree? motion three one nine is being accepted. all those in favour? against? that's carried. colleagues we now turn to the special report, a new concept of trade unionism g m b cooperation with the t & g. i propose that the general secretary should move this we'll have it formally seconded. we'll then take motion two five five t g w u. motion two two eight changing employment patterns moved and seconded i will then invite speakers from each of the regions on the special report. general secretary to move. john general secretary moving the special report and you may have noticed that the television cameras have gone. this is only about the possible er partnership of two of the largest unions in britain. an organization which if it ever came to be formed will be representing nearly two million people. pity our media showed a different sense of priorities. but colleagues, five years ago i looked forward to the merger between g m b and apex and predicted by the year two thousand there would be only four major unions in britain, call them the four super unions. in fact as you know the world has moved a good deal faster than any of us expected. last year the a w u was formed and next month unison comes into existence. this debate is about how we will respond and in a very real sense, it's about the future of the whole trade union movement in britain. in the mid eighties we decided that if we were going to be one of the super unions, we had to be amalgamation-friendly. we've been uniquely successful in the amalgamation stakes. textiles workers, greater london staff association, apex, tailor and garment workers, they were all wooed by other unions but they all had the good sense to merge into the g m b. in the next few months we'll be joined by members of e f t a t. i am delighted that the special e f t a t conference voted in favour of the g m b. i welcome that decision and i pay tribute to the many colleagues who worked so hard to achieve that victory. we'll be seeing the e f t a t colleagues on thursday, i hope you'll give them a very very warm welcome. that's the good news. the bad news is of course that our successful amalgamation policy has been made against the background of falling union membership. we've done better than most, but our membership levels have suffered as well. high unemployment, anti trade union laws, macho management, they've all had their damaging effect. we all know people who want trade union protection, but dare not join because they fear victimization. because of political hostility trade union membership in britain is being held at an artificially low level. if we have the same legal system even as continental europe, trade union membership in britain will be at least two million higher than it is today, but let's not delude ourselves. political spite has done us enormous damage, but it's not the whole story. during the last ten years britain has changed, very often for the worse, the nature of work has changed and we the trade union movement have not changed fast enough to keep up with the pace. think about it for a moment. what are the three pillars that support trade unionism in britain? recognition by employers,check-off agreements, reliable shop stewards and activists. our problem is that one by one these three pillars are crumbling away. many of you know john here today. he's a distinguished delegate to many many congresses and was london region secretary before paul. the point of mentioning john is that he used to work at the massive hoover plant in west london. it closed a few years ago, they couldn't knock it down because it was meant to be a prime example of nineteen thirties architecture. john always said that they spent more money restoring the facade than they ever spent on the thousands of workers who worked inside the plant, but then when it closed they couldn't knock it down, so they turned it into a superstore. that seems to me to be a fable from thatcher's britain. from manufacturing to retail, from workshop to shop work, from full time to part time. if you look around the towns and cities of britain, you will find the same story, be it steel plants, those vast chemical plants, the big engineering works, they scarcely exist any more and if they still are there, they've shrunk to a tiny part of their earlier size. the old industrial landmarks are disappearing. instead we have what i'll call a bits and pieces economy. service industries, small workplaces, short-term employment, and more and more employers who don't know anything about trade unions and don't want to know. in workplace after workplace we find exploited workers, frightened workers, vulnerable workers, but little chance of recognition no hope of check-off and no one brave enough to come forward as a steward. our problem, our central problem in the british trade union movement is that we have a trade union movement that operates very comfortably in one world, while over half the people of britain work in an entirely different world, a world where trade unionism is scarcely ever mentioned and if it is mentioned, it's mentioned with a hint of fear. the challenge set out in the introduction to our report, the first page, it was very carefully written, is to build a new trade unionism on a model to fit this new world. a new concept of trade unionism that offers a vital and effective support system for everyone at work, everyone at work, not just the ones in the big workplaces, but everyone. a new concept that doesn't depend on recognition, doesn't depend of check-off and doesn't depend on representation by shop stewards in every workplace. where we've got those conditions great, but we've also got to find a trade unionism for the rest and the growing majority of employees in britain. now of course we've got some experience in these things and we can put together some sort of picture of what that trade unionism for a new world might look like. the first thing you've go to do is you've got to provide services that mean something to everyone at work. legal representation very important, maybe also pension schemes that can provide real pension protection. quick-fire advice down the phone or face-to-face on work-related issues. then of course you have to ensure that you can offer representation whenever it is needed, but most of all, we've somehow got to create the feeling of lifetime loyalty to the trade union movement and to a particular trade union. not just a situation where you work in one place and when you leave you leave the union as well. with fast changing employment, there's no future in that. somehow we've got to say to people we will provide this valuable service to you from your first job until your last breath, wherever you work. if we get recognition, we'll bargain for you, but if you don't, we'll protect and support you in any job you fill. well, that's just an outline, but it's an outline to meet a need that no other union at the moment is even trying to meet, and what a need, and what a demand. do you know that nearly nine hundred thousand people walked off the streets of britain into citizen advice bureaux last year to ask for their help on employment issues because they had no trade union? we could offer a service that no cab can match. so how do we do it? and this is where i come to the point of cooperation and maybe more with other unions. we don't start from scratch, a plug for the t & g, they started down this track with their own link-up campaign and in the g m b we've pushed forward the frontiers of trade unionism into professional small businesses, legal offices and of course other commercial services. but how do we give a new impetus to that development? well, we've got somehow to think our way out of the current difficulties. the best chance of success for working people no doubt would be if the two great general unions, the t g w u and the g m b, found a way of doing it together, found a way of creating the most powerful union that has ever existed in britain. calling our resources, uniting our activists, achieving by cooperation what we've never achieved by wasteful competition, but then of course that's a vision. and then the practicalities come in, and that's why your executive is being very cautious in this report. maybe the task is too ambitious. maybe a hundred years of history and tradition will defeat us. maybe the t & g doesn't want a partnership of equals, maybe it wants a takeover. that wouldn't do for us. the g m b won't be a kebab on anyone's skewer. so that's why we move carefully. in all honesty the difficulties are formidable, but i tell you this, for too many years trade unionism has been in the doldrums and with such a prize, however difficult to achieve, it would be a betrayal of our heritage and a betrayal of our members if we don't give it a good hard try. so the report is about the possibility of a grand enterprise. the industrial cooperation between our unions should continue of course. our members wanted it and in many industries it makes sense, but the bigger task, the main event, is to see whether by a more formal relationship, a more formal partnership, we can build a union which is better than the t & g, better than the g m b and better suited for modern conditions than any trade union so far created in britain. now it's important to understand what the executive is looking for. this is not an amalgamation for its own sake, it is not an amalgamation to manage a continuing and more comfortable decline, it's not bolting together two super unions into one mega union and just hoping for the best. what we should try to create is a flagship of the labour movement. modern relevant and as successful in recruitment of the workforce of the nineties as we used to be in recruiting the workforce of the sixties and seventies. the flagship of the british labour movement, nothing less, that's the vision, that's what we want to try and create and that's what we want to come back to you and tell you about the prospects next year. that's our vision. the flagship of the labour movement and our task now if you pass this report is to find out whether that flagship can be built. think about it carefully. i move. we have the report formally rescinded. thank you very much indeed. i now call motion two five five t g w u london region to move. president, congress, roy london region moving motion two five five on the t & g. colleagues, let's make it clear, this motion is not opposed to a merger of the t & g. what it seeks to do is put forward another idea which is to continue to work closely with the t & g on a wide range of jointly agreed . for we desperately need a common approach in such areas as the t u c, on the general council, on the general committee and congress, and more importantly joint roles in the labour party. we need to jointly work together in public services if we are to combat the problems faced by the . all that work is positive and in the interests of all our members a slow and measured approach are coming together by general consent, building trust and commitment to a new big union. colleagues, i believe the building of a trust is the most important fact in the whole of this debate. we shouldn't kid ourselves for in factories and workplaces around the country g m b and t & g are at each other 's throats. that trust will take some building, especially in the liverpool area region, sorry. this motion calls upon the c e c to seek a structure which would keep both unions autonomous, keeping their structures, their conferences, their regional government etcetera. let the two unions come together by building the links in the common ground. colleagues, the c e c statement report told er considered trade unions and its conclusions recommended that preliminary discussions for transport and general on the feasibility of a merger with a report back on next year's congress. the danger with that we believe could be that we would set a date for the merger and take all the important issues and discussions, how many regions will it have will we have, the those regions and a hundred and one other problems raised by that merger into a tight timescale. this will only cause problems with consultation with the members and they're the most important, the bloody members, but it could lead to and a scramble for jobs. it could also tie up members of the c e c, the general secretary, the regional secretary, the president, officers and many others in internal wrangles new union just at the time when we need to look outward in the next two or three years. the danger is it could damage the very relations we tend, we need to build. a structure as i've said previously will give us the vital time and for the detailed discussions and consultations we need if we are to build the trust for the merger we all wish to see. colleagues, please support the motion. seconder colleagues for two five five yes london region er group four security, have you noticed we've lost another prisoner last night and he nicked me trousers! we er we concur with the general secretary's er when he said two years ago there will be four super unions by the year two thousand obviously that's gonna be a reality. er, it's something that will be welcomed by the trade union movement, a new forward, a new beginning to join once again the fruits of our labour with partnership with other unions and the labour party which was what we all need, but it must be done with careful planning and the brains at the top of the union must be telling the of the union, the members on the shop floor, the right direction in which to walk. clearly at the state of the talks with the t & g, we still have a long long way to go to reach this new goal and there's a strong rumour that there has been discussions between sir john edmunds and lord bill morris the name of the new union already and i think an apt title for the union at the moment would be yugoslavia because we're in ethnic groups, we are sections, we've got the boiler makers who are still claiming things they lost ten years ago when they merged. we've got apex who've been brought in to bring in the new the white collar worker unions to form another concept of trade unionism. lovely, now me, i'm an ex-m a t s a member, i'm in the security industry, at the moment i haven't got a section, so what am i a bosnian, a serbian or a croatian i don't know. so surely we got to tidy up our own act before we go further forward and as a trade union surely we are to fight unemployment. now surely will this merger cause er unemployment amongst our staff? will we need two general secretaries, two presidents, two vice presidents? and then again look, look at congress . obviously, if we're gonna be two big unions obviously portsmouth is no longer going to fit the bill and i think that's a shame because several congresses i've been to and this is the finest weather i've ever enjoyed. can't argue with that. and what a lovely place portsmouth is i must say went to the gentlemen's on, the toilet at the seafront last night and as i left, i looked at the sign that said er, please adjust your dress before you leave. that's equality for you. and then what are we gonna have? are we gonna have an annual congress, a bi-annual congress, a tri-annual congress? when are we gonna have rules revisions, there's a long way to go and as the, the er general secretary said, be careful, because i've been to talks with, on, from the regional committee with the t & g yes we got on lovely with them, they're fine, they, they gave us a nice big er commemorative medal of the dockers' strike and it's got my granddad and my great granddad on it cos they was there in the other union mind you while we've done all the striking and that they stood by, but nevertheless they're not bad lads anyway and as john said we must be careful that we are not the ones that are gonna be taken over, because i remember that old song of the fifties, never smile at a crocodile don't be taken in by his welcome grin, he's imagining how well you'll fit beneath his skin . brothers, sisters, president, we've still got a long way to go. general secretary, you may be ready to dive in now, but we but we want to wait till the time is right. i second. goodness me, keep taking the tablets. motion two two eight midland region to move. can't follow that. president, congress bob midlands and east coast region moving motion two two eight. changing employment patterns. many of the points that i make in this speech have already been covered by john, but they are important and deserve to be repeated. the matters of employing people is changing and in the main those changes fly in the face of traditional g m b organization and make recruitment and retention of membership more difficult. whatever the reasons for these changes, be they because of a hostile government, new technology or the european dimension, we must respond and change if we are to survive as a creditable organization. the employment situation described in the motion are no longer the exception, they are the rule and as such we must sharpen up our recruitment act. that is not to say we should adopt the hard sell or abandon our traditional value, but we must seriously examine how we can appeal to more desperate scattered membership. we must seriously examine how we can involve such membership in the decision making of the union and carry them with us through change. we must seriously examine the relevance and method of delivery of our range of benefits. how can we appeal to part time workers and convince them that we can change things for the better, many of whom are home workers who are working in appalling conditions and often for less than fifty pence an hour? what can we do for members in small workplaces where even basic health and safety standards are exempt by law? how shall we respond to the loss of check-off as the proposed legislation means we surely will? how can we react to the loss of local authority standards of paying conditions and negotiation practices? how can we service and maintain our appeal to members opting to work in europe and how can we recruit europeans working here? clearly this is a wide ranging motion designed to provoke thought and debate with no easy answers. i welcome the decision of the c e c to examine the issues involved in greater detail. i move. liz midlands and east coast. the speaker from the northern region will get on very well with my three year old granddaughter, she don't like crocodiles either. however, in the interest of brevity, i will my remarks to points a and b. since nineteen seventy nine there's been a major shift away from our industrial base towards service industries. consequently part time work and casual work is now a significant feature of our economy. effectively we've become a low-waged, low-skilled economy with virtually no protection for many of our fellow workers. at the same time, home working is on the increase, it's been estimated one million people do paid work at home, seventy three percent of which are women. they take on this work, not for pin money, but to provide for their family's basic needs. they are forced into accepting low paid jobs, exposed to health hazards with no job protection because of family responsibilities or affordable child care. you know delegates, when most people think about home working, they really think beyond the traditional jobs associated with this group of workers. i recently read the a b c of homeworking, it was quite never mind, i can't say the damn word, i could see very clearly, the potential for injury and exposure to other hazards is frightening. i fear the element is the growth of white collar working. it's my guess and it's an educated guess, within the next decade this growth will speed up partly because of new technology and the employer's needs to cut costs and maximize profits. you know delegates, this resolution is about recruitment and retention, but it's also about the ideals on which this movement of ours was founded. if as a union we are to meet the challenges that lie ahead, then please support this resolution. if not, we can stand here like and get our feet wet, because that's what's gonna happen. please support. thanks very much indeed liz. colleagues, i now come back to the special report and will take speakers from the regions. liverpool region. if colleagues from the back of congress are intending to speak, if they could come forward. alan liverpool region. president, congress, liverpool region support the document. we do need closer links, not only with the t & g but also with other unions, but let's not forget that other unions are organizing to build up their membership at the expense of the g m b. we need to make up our minds do we want an amalgamation or not. if we do, we must act quickly because our members in the health service, local authorities and all public services are in danger of being approached by the creation of unison. our craft members are in danger of being approached by the a w e u alan, alan i'm sorry to interrupt you, i do apologize. colleagues this is a very important matter. i'm sure we're all agreed about that. so let's have the best of order for the speakers please. right alan thank you president. our craft members are in danger of being poached by the a w e u. an amalgamation may not be some people's ideal, but it will take away a lot of the friction between the two unions. we will only have one set of policies and one set of rules. there would also be another benefit in amalgamation. we would get back the two and a half thousand members the t & g poached in liverpool city council. one final point, the liverpool regional council strongly recommended that amalgamation talks should start as soon as possible. scotland. president, colleagues, geoff g m b scotland. supporting the c e c report. colleagues, g m b scotland welcomes and congratulates the central executive's initiative in bringing forward the of this congress the big important debate of this congress between ourselves and the transport and general workers' union at some time in the future. the paper quite rightly says and i quote the relationship between the t g w u and the g m b has all been marked by a blend of competition and co-operation . it then goes on to detail a number of joint initiatives covering the the country and all the g m b regions. to be fair, the c e c have not tried to say that everything in the garden is rosy, they've also highlighted a number of problem areas that still exist. indeed all look at the recent decision by the and allied trade union to the members who have amalgamated themselves transport and general workers. it's only dirty tricks and underhanded tactics used by the t & g during the approach of the workers' union so must realize congress, to be more positive, one of the major benefits or more, the major benefit from future amalgamation with the t & g would be the free help of officials from both unions and and negotiations both national, regional and even at times individual company level where both unions help members. colleagues, the time gained by having only one and recruitment and on negotiations rather at least two could be much better utilized than the certain, the day to day needs of membership. colleagues, g m b scotland subscribe to review that the benefits from the future amalgamation between the two great general unions within the united kingdom would by far any possible deficits. congress, g m b scotland supports. london region. congress, president. ed westminster trade union political staffs branch, london region. congress, i'm a labour councillor and whenever i sit on the council i also ask conservative members to declare their interest before they speak on an issue, so i better declare mine. when i first went to work, i went and joined the union, there wasn't one in the factory i was working in and so i went to the nearest er trade union office and joined. that union supported me as i recruited the whole of the workforce and er, i was then sacked after four weeks! some things don't change! the union then supported me further when i got another job and was a steward there, a branch secretary a district committee member and then on the regional committee and they also helped to put me through polytechnic and into the job that i did looking at mergers at the university of warwick. that union was the transport and general workers' union. that's my interest. having looked at mergers then from both sides, i've seen the prejudices that go into any debate that takes place between any unions coming together. obviously unions have their own traditions and their own ways of doing things in their own organizational structures. clearly in any merger between the g m b and the t & g there are big hurdles to overcome. there are, and i know because i've seen both sets of prejudices, prejudices from both sides. the t & g traditionally have looked at the g m b as er look down at sometimes at the g m b. i've heard them described before as the sweepers up union and various other things. derogatory terms. i came into the g m b and heard exactly the same kind of derogatory comments about the transport and general workers' union. comrades we must put to one side these kind of, this kind of fighting. we must i think look to go forward together. the union movement is under attack, we cannot afford ever to waste our resources on fighting each other we should look to always work together. however in doing so, it is important that we take time, because time allows people to come together in a sensible way, not to be forced together. we don't need to see er leaflets and so on urging us into merger before they're actually ready to take place from the membership itself. go steadily forward, work towards the merger, but don't force it too quickly. i support the document midland region president, conference alan midland and east coast region, opposing the c e c document. conference my region isn't against amalgamations with other unions. the g m b's got a long record of joining forces with others which has proved to be successful, but if we're gonna be honest, it's always been recognized that we would be the predominant union and yes apex members we should have been honest with you at the time of merger, because it's quite clear you was gonna lose your identity to at least to some extent and we should have been honest about that. the only thing i would say delegates is that the we will also swallow the goldfish and there's a message in that for all of us. a merger with the transport and general workers' union will be like any other previous arrangements. the problems that are gonna manifest themselves will any possible advantages. consider for example what's gonna happen to the rulebook and to our structures. let's think about the number of regions we have, the t & g have got seven, we've got ten. perhaps we'll lose a region, or three. how regional councils and the c e c operate? what i do know we'll, we'll to get everyone in. how are we going to organize congress? perhaps president we could solve the problem by the t & g having theirs one year and us the next. i suppose that's that kind of bi-annual arrangement. what's going to happen to the regional committees, to officers and staff? these will be the issues that'll concentrate but more importantly, what's in the best interest of our members? will their concerns be at the forefront of people's minds once the powerbroking bloodletting starts, and blood will be spilt you know. ask the t & g officers what they think to the way they were when the redundancy notices were handed out so full time officers in the in the audience, be careful cos you're going don't be under any illusion when your region, your job, or your elected position is under threat, it's human nature to protect your back and when this happens, it's the members who end up being the casualties. conference, the document quite rightly identifies the common ground between our two unions. it points to the cooperation which already exists. so why do we need to formalize these arrangements, why rock the boat at time when the political climate is ? you don't believe for a minute that this government will stand by while the two biggest general unions get together, no way, they'll attack us in any way they can and i warn ya they haven't run out of ideas yet. i'm all in favour of fighting the tories to protect our members' interest, but we won't be doing much fighting because we'll be using all our efforts sorting out internal squabbles. we can also expect de-recognition by employers who are frightened to death by the t & g. it it's already happening. i tell you another year of feasibility studies will take us to the point of no return. bill the and john started holding hands about a year ago and it's already resulted in their engagement and it's clear that they're planning their big day for the summer of next year! we should tell them to forget about having their banns read and advise them stay just good friends. colleagues we have an opportunity today to vote this document down, to vote against it because the future of our union and the interests of our members is at risk. let's take it and prevent a constructive see see you in a second. now what can we do for jane?you're you're wheezing? you're a bad woman . dr aye really quite bad. a lovely day like that, you're wheezing. no i've been quite bad for thursday or friday have you? last week. aye. ah you're full of infection as well. i'm taking a steroid inhaler. got a lot of pains aha. in my chest and that. your tubes are full. aye. very tired. i feel very tired. forgotten sometimes. aye no wonder. would you like to come. . right okay, don't. right. get your tubes loosened up. i'll need to give you an antibiotic as well jane to mm. that stuff because there's a lot of stuff lying actually caught in the tubes. aye i've take pains a lot. aye. everywhere. everywhere? aye. right. and thirteenth well what about work? you'll no manage work no i've not been at my work this you've not been at your work. aye. but they go on holiday on thursday. but i phoned the work yesterday, mhm. and i says er if i need a line, how will it work? and she says, just ask your doctor for a line mhm. to cover your work from yesterday to friday. then i go on holiday for three right. weeks. . now did you put in a self certificate as well did you? no well that's what i that's was phoning the work for. aye self certificate this week? she says, no, and it's holiday time, a self certificate's no good. aye you'll need an insurance line. no get a self certificate and put it in to road. to keep yourself covered with road. alright. cos that's what the work should have done. ah. they should have got a self certificate and then sent it on to road for you. will i get that then? but you get it from what down the road ? aye down the road and get it away jane, just to keep yourself covered . right. cos er they should have done that. they're a crowd of bandits. who's that ? yeah.. och to breathe down there know what i mean, but oh. mm. boy it's getting getting past it. aye it's the daughter now. it's no boys, it's karen she's the boss . lady muck. say no more say no more. okay, thanks now doctor. well you're that'll keep jane. okay? thanks. right. cheerio now. i got a thing from this morning from where? where's that at? it's the er college technical college oh right, what saying?, you're not brainy enough to go to college no, no i don't no, is oh can i have your fork? ah ya you've got more than me i like these feet i do, i like the yellow ones, it, it just said what did it say? i thought it was a refresher course,it's not that what is this?, this yours? jane don't be nosy, you shouldn't read other people's things what did she say it? go and ask when she's finished or when she's about finished reading that she's nearly finished actually why, what she gonna do? you don't have to pick your conversation for this, right, where's the cats are they out? come on soot, good boy, sooty come on, out you go, out, come on good boy, out, have you seen tigger? yeah he's upstairs. right fella at work this where's that lisa stansfield tape, mum? erm is it not in the pocket? no our becky boo's had it here, er i don't know, the paper might be down there it's great. it's, it's around somewhere, she's slung it, she was in a foul mood oh looks a bit slim in them don't she? that kelly leave the freezer on, why don't you turn 'em off? er, ah, it'll blow warm in a bit, when it gets warm, if you want it off just knock that up to there. it's alright jo's a nice girl int she? yeah she is, are they not engaged or anything? i don't think so he's taking his time int he? yeah perhaps she's got a mutual agreement that they'll just end up perhaps getting married, i don't know that's a nice house. that one? yeah it is that's what you and uncle tony supposed to of got. what? one of those long cruisers excuse me didn't measure my window. oh never mind, we'll do it and pop down later did we not do it before? is it not six foot? or was it seven foot? is richard's mum and dad buying him a little car? i don't honestly know, he said er, he's got to go in for his test, he said, and then i'll have to see about a car so i don't know whether they're gonna buy him one or not yeah cos, does he stay with his mum? he will do won't he? yeah, i think so, yeah i don't think richard, i don't think he goes out anywhere , so, his hobby's in canoeing, but he wants to make 'em don't he or summat? well he thought your dad was buying that mould from jim so he did say that, he, he'd lent him that book on how to actually build them, but that's who did? obviously not gonna come off, richard lent your dad the book it looks pretty busy for a sunday there's a lot of what clements? yeah. well is that on? yeah i what a i don't think so, no more like right then. volkswagen. yeah what shall we do, sit here and wait a bit, or go inside? i said i'd wait just inside doorway. go inside. i'll get a trolley, i'll get a few bits, yeah. yeah i could have brought me watch down, i need a battery in it tt heck oh i like that, that little russian ring that's nice. she shouldn't be very much longer now don't really notice oh he's hiding they're here now, they've got a trolley, i don't think i need one oh isn't she sweet? what's she got there? it's mandy's hello sweetheart er, i don't need this do i if you've got that? sorry we just thought it's better than carrying her around. yeah okay just if it hello becky boo what have you got on eh? there was a horse running round and we got held up with traffic. where at? there'd been an accident right outside park, anyway there was some lad, i don't know was he, is he or what, but he's on a horse and it's only a baby, and i think it's thrown him and there's ah all bit and everything's come out so of course the horse is running around free and he's trying to catch it he's trying to catch it spooking it even more and a woman with a jag parked in the middle of the road and a caravan and what have ya so they're trying to corner it and it's munching on grass quite happily, you could see it was watching a minute, but it was watching them away and i think er any minute it's looking out the corner of its eye and then it's just gonna go when he sees it getting closer. do, shall i get one of these for david just to jot down the hours? yeah i was just saying i just saying that something like that, something cheap, that doesn't matter if it gets mucked up. oh that'll do. one of those, okay tracy what, what about a calculator? not into that could do with bigger buttons it's a bit gory colours, but that's a good'un. that one? yeah, well you'll need one as well won't ya? erm i'm gonna have to manage with little ones for the time being. oh you get that and use that and then if there's any invoices to do i'll borrow it or would you rather have one of those? it's not really they're quite good it looks better than them for office don't it?they're dual power battery and solar oh so that's the same that's same isn't it? yeah, i suppose like if you're not in any bright lights you can have it on the battery yeah where's it gone? those curtains look really nice. do they look nice? yeah that's nice. it's got a huge bobble on it. yeah, tracy said your curtains look really nice. do they? mm look a lot darker in that little bit though do they? got the i've got to fill it up somehow do ya? no, no i don't think i could cos i'm on me own such a lot, i can't, you can't make conversation by yourself can ya? could but they'd put you away true i had me hair in a ponytail this morning, it looked silly. did it? oh look at those oh forever friends lunch boxes hello becky boo give nat a kiss, what? what's that? what's that? you'll want one of those when you go to school, oh int it pretty yeah, that's pretty yes give nat a kiss, give me a kiss. give her kisses. no alright then, i don't want a kiss thank you. oh a paddy, paddy, paddy have you tried er yeah, er there's those cord ones somewhere what d'ya think? i like 'em, they're only twelve ninety nine, they've come down. yeah they're nice aren't they? mm they're well worth it yeah. if we go halves each? have one, well what ever can buy that they're sweet, they'll fit her won't they? yeah look they're all coming down, what size have you got her? that's all the size there is. one and a half. one's one and a half. just that one looks better, is it just way it's fastened? it's got a zip oh right. have you got a new coat? only even if it just does er, just till summer you know. i think they're sweet. david? aren't they nice? aye. yeah. they're just twelve ninety nine are they waterproof? well no, but she's always in her pram and, int she, her other one new coat, for you i don't know whether i like that hat or not it's alright what you doing? i want a pair of those socks. those are nice aren't they? mm boo. have to start buying some summer gear soon won't we? no, keep your hat on, no that's nice. right, that i like that erm the black one, the grey one. yeah. the grey one looks better. it's nice eight pounds fifty though ooh yeah, over oh yes ooh you want to get out as soon as you get in that's nice that fell off. yeah it's gonna take john quite a while apparently, he's coming in next week as well. mm it's alright for a fiver. which one do you want? it's different how much has that got? two litre. two litre. mm, i don't that's got 'em do they both work the same? erm oh this one is it leaking or? what's that? it's only a fiver, reduced from fifteen ninety nine, that one reduces nitrates oh well the state our water's been in just lately bring the top out yeah it's there it's stuck. i think, hang on yeah, that's why it's only five pound, huh, cos the box is rubbish what is it? coffee cup. it's a water filter for, cos tracy's water the other day it was absolutely black coffee, black coffee, with this sludge in the bottom. baa, baa, right, yeah you tell me what you want and er gordon bennett you want some pot noodles, don't ya? you want some cereals. i want some cereals, i'm not so sure about pot noodles. well what you gonna do about lunch? are you going out for breakfast? no, we're gonna have breakfast there and i was on about going get some whatever for lunch but i'm not particularly bothered. i'd rather have er so what you gonna do? have a big sandwiches or summat. are you gonna need, what you gonna need for breakfast, just cereals? just cereals i would think. right, okay. if they want anything else they can bloody well pay. yeah, so we'll get some cereals. do you want to take my toaster and you can do toast? er what about er cos we're not using it lately. er can do yeah, i think i might, might get some of those buns. okay, right, so some biscuits as well we need some biscuits teresa don't we? yeah. yeah. do you want any biscuits or anything david? er, no, i only want the bare essentials and yeah but if, if you want some no, coffee and stuff i don't know. look there's a, a tin of biscuits there, look. two thirty one get a tin or you can, you can have the ascot at three thirty seven so yeah, it's up to you, whichever you want. we can take some what? biscuits, aren't they? biscuits, biscuits, what? what's this, it's biscuits, yeah, biscuits, did you hear that mummy? biscuits. biscuits, the state of your face. you tried it, didn't you darling? yeah you do try, yeah, biscuits, biscuits, yeah and, biscuits biscuits, they're doggie biscuits, they're doggie biscuits, er, will there be enough? you'd better get a bigger one, hundred and sixty one. doesn't matter that's, they're gonna need 'em aren't they? you'll just have to tell me when you're getting low yeah i'll sort it out. and then ah, how come i never get any cuddles like that right, well now, coffee. coffee on the next one what? yes oh yes david what do you want? what shall we do? get some, two lots or? yeah i think we'd better get a couple of lots and, cos we don't know what they're gonna like do we really? david likes, get some honey nut loops david if you want to the biggest packet get some coffee that's not gonna last you very long is it? ah last me the week them. yeah er, you'd better get two packets, and what else do you think? get some bloody cornflakes. yeah get a packet, a big packet of cornflakes, bigger than that, is there bigger? erm what do we pay at asda? at cash and carry you mean? yeah. ten pounds for a big one well david can always bring it home if there's, it doesn't get used. what about weetabix? you don't think they'll leave the lid off it, it'll all go yucky won't it? yeah, get a jar. get a jar, yeah. right david what you want? have you got some, oh you've got cornflakes, what about erm, thing is we can't get milk. oh right erm want some yeah you can get, do you want a big one? no, no only want a little bit. right get some powdered milk then. i've got some you've got powdered milk? in the trolley? yes. do you want me to get some long life milk? as well. that's bloody awful stuff that. you don't like that? no. right you can get a pint of fresh couldn't you for tech tomorrow? do what love? from here a couple of pints of fresh for tech yeah tomorrow. is that your daddy? what you doing to daddy? get off. what are you doing to daddy? you want to go to daddy now? want to go to daddy? what do you want? what they doing to you? right yeah because if you're having cereals where you gonna get fresh milk every morning? there must be a little shop somewhere, ta darling. can you just from what? can you hang on to rebecca cos she's just pulled this off. instead of pot noodles and beans on toast have pot noodles on own yeah david said he's not too bothered, would he rather take some beans and the toaster? got some beans then? sod off then looks squashed in there don't ya? want to come to net yeah? yeah how many packs of chicken? that means you can always have baked beans on toast at lunch time, it's the case of first week finding out. yeah what you looking for david? no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this, that's a press stud yeah. becky boos what's aunty teresa doing? eh? aunty teresa doing? no darling okay damn you're making my arm ache ta put it on there. i don't want it too high up yes oh where's he gone? what's he doing now? he's looking at soups he might want some help aargh what you doing? rebecca rebecca boo. what's that? what's that? yeah i don't like that. yes yes no i like erm you're making my arm ache, you're heavy do you want to walk? want to walk? ooh, come on, that's it, good girl who's that in that wi look in that mirror, what you doing? eh? what's he doing that little boy, eh? come on what's he doing? eh? er i know what we've passed by sugar, better go and get what three, three bags? there's two there. okay third lot i'm coming. how do you want to pay for this? do you want er, me to get the coat out and that and pay for that separate or? no you can leave the filter in. and i'll take if you pay, yeah you get the coat and then i'll give you half to the coat when i get some cash coat and your lemonade? yeah. right, well, well don't give me half for coat cos you've got filter. oh there's some lovely little girls' coats, but i thought like let, long ones, i thought they'll probably be alright for in her pram yeah, i'll say. it's not gonna show up muck as much becky. becky come on, come on watch her with trolley. where you going? come on to annette, come on back this way rebecca. come on sweetheart this way, bye, bye, are you going? we're going this way come on you little rogue, you're a little rogue aren't ya? a little rogue ooh getting told off little baby's being told off yeah. what about taking 'em a bottle? yeah that's what he's on about do it. wow, wow, wow ah, oh, ah, oh, let go, good girl, yes well yeah come on, let go, whey there's a sandwich shop, and you could have, they have loads of fillings. they haven't got any mum. they haven't? tt they have loads of fillings and you just choose what you want and there was curried chicken, prawns, could have salad with them or you could have a baked potato with your own filling, i had a baked potato with tuna fish and coleslaw, coleslaw was made with mayonnaise, it was gorgeous. ah. great big potato. where was that? in carlisle. in carlisle. she had er, a potato scoop, she scoop me the tuna fish, a great big pile of tuna fish and a great big pile of coleslaw and it was gorgeous. ooh i bet. david had a prawn salad sandwich and a cheese and onion sandwich and i'm not kidding you, the sandwich was like that, they just filled it and it was good grief. only four pound for two sandwiches and me baked potato. that was okay then, pretty reasonable, how are we, how are we doing? can you think of anything else that they might need? we've got some soup so we thought well we can make some of that up in the morning then we could just warm it up for the dinners yeah instead of going, you know getting chips and stuff, erm and we've got beans. they want some bread don't they? yeah. and some butter. bread and butter and we'll have to give 'em er, or well andrew will give 'em knives and stuff surely won't he, cos he'll have enough off the train la, la, la, la, la, la net what? are you going down? cheese and biscuits, we've got some cheese and biscuits at home ain't we? we'll get some cheese whatever you want if you're having toast as well tracy, well yeah i was going to say that probably would be a better size shout at daddy then where's he gone? got your shoes off are you in a marathon or what ? eh? daddy's not that way dad, where's he gone? becky boo, come on find daddy this way, find him this way go on, ooh sorry she's going down each aisle and shouting dad. i found your dad look, i found him, look, who's up there? who's up there? alright, that's what we had on that bread that night was it? yeah. rebecca. she's going down each aisle shouting dad, dad. hiya. what do you want? eh? what is it? come on this way. some bread, let's get some bread, ya hoo. what you doing? well i'll have that off dad. she's getting stripped off here, right. cheesecake. eggs, what you getting eggs for? boil. oh you're not gonna use eggs not some boiled eggs? how, will andrew sort you out with the cutlery and that? there's, there's everything there there's everything there, right that's all. a fridge and everything there. right that's okay then you'll have to scoop it out with your fingers. is this for everybody this? yeah would you rather have it like that? are they only thirty seven p? yeah. well put one in then. gonna take the other no leave it, leave it, if it's only thirty seven pence er what is it? just cream cheese, i like that one. yeah i had with that if they took cheese slices they could do a cheese, toasted cheese sandwiches or well tell him then or david if you took cheese slices, yeah you could do i could like toasted bread and, cos that would go in the toaster with two slices together. yeah i know yeah ooh pale peach material or some erm tt braid and that cheap and edge your tie-backs how would you know if it's finished one side? oh it's got a little bit to go yet it'll just stop. right, and it needs a new battery as well i think can we get some of that warm bread yeah. with cheese on it? yeah, do it, what type? do you want crusty rolls? what so that you put 'em, where you put those in the oven and warm 'em up? you can warm, yeah you can warm 'em up, or, or soft buns, little soft buns, no. oh she got any, what has she got on that trolley? that women over there. what, what did you want? some of those cakes i got those buns. they might not make 'em on a sunday what is there? get some baking or something you want some toasty bread or some get anything for sandwiches. yeah, yeah you can do, they'll have to buy the bread when they need it i don't know what they'll be like warm, have i to get these no erm i want summat to put it on so yeah i know, er what, shall i just get ordinary buns? or some unless you get some where have you been? er what about these? yeah, alright oh that bread. oh god. bits oh god. not like that. well i pardon? don't either, you wouldn't eat it with bits in. get a bit of brown sauce and tomato sauce, heat them up on that. put it in. yeah, yeah just small jars and then we're not wasting it if we don't use it. why don't you squeeze some in ours at home? sorry. okay. i said the small ones. i know there was none, there was only those with bits in, i don't like 'em with bits in we got any tangerines this time? yeah. those little ones no it's pretty i've got these on anyway can't you drive in your trainers? you can't here. they're like lead boots, go nah. how'd it go? nah. what bob, bob, bob, bob, bob, bob, bob, bob should of got one of them for your granddad. mean you'd have the seat numbers on it then. they've got numbers on. tickets. it's got spots. got spots so have i actually not bad eh a little book about percy percy for my socks and well i'm not wearing for my deodorant. oh. last of my money so i might as well spend it. you don't have to spend it, you can give it to me it asks you what you've got to do for, it tells you what you've to do for your test and it tells you what you should and what you shouldn't do, it's only forty one pages so if you want to read it you can have it, it's quite good, it's not full pages either it's like drawings and just bits of paragraphs. what you up to? whoops she's got a skirt on yeah it looks nice mummy, mummy. mummy, mummy ow, ow. nice int it? oh yes daddy what are they? what are they? eh? what? what's that? that's a pizza. you like pizzas don't you? pizza ee, you'll have to have your daughter. right tracy are you is she putting that through first? or why don't you give mum the money and put it all through, no no i better not no. no i'd like to put receipt in books and it's, they'll probably turn round and tell me it's all so i can't, i can't offset it against the tax, or v a t or whatever. sorry. oh hang on mum's getting that. oh is she? yeah what are you doing to me? what do you think you're doing to me? i've got to get the shopping through, in a minute aargh. in a minute daddy's got, daddy won't let you go you horror, it's only cos you're closer to things with me int it? you a bit lower down, int it? no no that rebecca's new coat? is that your new coat? is it? what's that? oh what a shame should've bought the eggs stand there and all watch me. erm, they'll just have to make sure that they cover everything up and then they don't go stale, not just left open how come you've got two boxes then? well, there not, one's not gonna last very long how long are you there for? three months dear. you're not coming home for three months? yeah. just think, three months without me, aren't you gonna miss me? no. that works both ways that, don't it david? no really miss teresa, i will. honest i'll have nobody to torment and wind up? yeah alright david. what darling? you won't get your bread put your socks and your deodorant through. oh, oh bash him, bash him i'm watching you, what do you think you're playing at? she wants to come now. you're a pest you know don't ya? e'er. no it's alright no becky boo i like that cardy. it's from a set, it's got a hat and a scarf. did you do it? no it was one of the cast-offs. where is her hat? david's got it i think do you want some change trace? this all go to our house? er no david's taking it. have to sort out what's ours. so we'll keep ours separate, yeah. you get our stuff then. alright put sugar on i, i'm just getting our stuff, this is all going with david so, the van is packed, absolutely full. is it? yeah. good job he's only going on his own then innit? never of oh shove them in there can we have, can we have some more carrier bags please? that's her soup. i'll get our stuff. alright then, ta, alright i'm doing this yeah it's hands all over daz and that. that's what he's putting in. alright. that note book, er no he wants that cream in your carrier bag. yeah. oh you, you don't need me driving license do ya? cos it's visa,thinking about being a cheque thanks lovey okay. thank you. becky you want net? thank you. come on rebecca. come on sweetheart are they your size those things, or have you got to send off for 'em? those badges we'll have to, you'll have to sort of sound it out and see how it works oh yes. because erm somebody complain about the well it isn't only that i mean er we don't provide the food when they're at home, do we? i mean we can't keep going shopping every week for, erm providing like all the meal or do we? yes i suppose we do don't we? yeah, yeah i suppose we do as long as we keep some you, like you keep something in for breakfast and oh it'll work out. that'll be main, main thing, won't it? we'll have to, you'll suss it out anyway then just write down what you need when you, and i can nip down when you co come home at weekends. are you going out for an evening meal, or? yeah. yeah look at that little one. if they wants chips and stuff they can go out and pay for them themselves what for dinner? yeah. yeah. cos you've got plenty in for 'em. well i, no i don't know, no i think we'll have to won't we? oh no there's stuff. we got to provide no we've gotta find, provide sandwiches and stuff and that's what i'm saying if they don't yeah stuff,variet variety, no they want to go out and get chips they pay for them themselves. we should provide them ham and stuff. yeah but you can't expect them to manage off, oh you've got ham and yeah there's ham and chicken and bread and for sandwiches and soup and, so they've got a choice yeah. it's not as if they're having nothing. no, it's only when you run out of that stuff, cos you can't expect them to manage on like a bowl of soup or something can you? no well that's it, i mean you have something for breakfast, a light lunch and you can go out for a big meal, that's all you need. yeah. if you want anything else, well yeah, but you're not having that much for breakfast are ya? no i'm not expecting to. you just if it's cold you'll have to sort of stop for breaks and, so you can get warm won't ya? aye yeah and erm, and just erm it's alright that's hers, what you talking about? yeah cos david's, oh do you want me to put it in the van? what? oh we can go and do it couldn't we? yeah if you put it in the back of the car i'll nip up and do it alright, where you parked? just shove all your stuff in alright. they're family anyway okay then. alright then. yeah, i'll go home now and tell your da i'll make him something for his dinner, kiss give me a kiss bye. i'll ring you tonight. alright then. alright i'll see you later er, yeah. alright. er learn all you can and then we'll know how to do it all. alright? nay bother. but, eh listen, if, don't be frighten if there's anything that you don't know don't you be frightened of asking him how to do it i'm not, no i won't. cos there's things that he can show you and oh i know yeah. alright , okay love i think, are you not open? no she's not bothered you know. i wonder if, when we're all oh i suppose it depends if norman's got anybody in for lessons. ooh my foot slipped foot had slipped on the clutch and i couldn't do anything about it oh i didn't realize what time it was, your dad'll be wondering where his dinner's got to won't he? there's ann and brian. aargh we've got nothing to make him a sandwich up have we? no. have to go home. int it? yeah does look a bit black do er, sarah says those though, they don't really, people really go for him. yeah. every time i go there's only a few packets left. yeah well i know what to look for now, when i go down i can get 'em but i'd never seen 'em before well i've never until today whatever they are. that's em. sixty four p, there on the top shelve in those brown baskets, cos there's the set of, there's the three at the top and three in the middle yeah. and three on the bottom and they're right at the top. i suppose they're er, they'd be quite nice with jam on, i didn't like them without yeah they are they're just like scones. yeah, they're not as dry as scones are they? scones tend to be a bit dry it's raining now does that lorry talking to me er like cos they come down this way going to eccleston like two lorries and said there's two cars go on. going through hedges and that down here we're going too fast yeah and it, of course it was an icy road when he went through there it was your side's not working for some reason. must of got blocked up with a bit of muck. possibly, yeah why don't you put your handbrake on, it'll be much easier. with your dad yeah, yeah cos it's now we've got to order red paint, he didn't get any red because he didn't honestly think, well it didn't, he didn't know he'd need it i should think it's not like, realized. maybe he just didn't think when they showed him it, that it wasn't the right one cos i suppose if you've seen them every day you don't, it doesn't register it's just the fact that of course your dad only gave him the price of the blue and white when i i doubt that she'll do it until you've got through your exams wouldn't matter if it was a round number, but forty five. well if, you're allowed to earn forty nine ninety nine, before you pay tax and national insurance yeah but like jake said she, he said it's coming out of his back pocket anyway yeah. there's grandma . is it? yeah. i didn't see her no she'd of been to salvation army there's julie right, make him a sandwich, must have something,should of got something. oh ooh, ow hiya pat, oh i got a pain in me back then. go and let's get, tell annette to put the bloody telephone on the thing or to get off it and oh. you weren't in and i couldn't, i couldn't find telephone number to give him a ring, i've just got, i've just got through to directory enquiries, got the number, just gonna dial it and gran says annette's home. i would of oh thanks pat must, cats must of knocked it off. tell annette to get off that bloody phone he's a cheeky sod. i put it er, i put it back on the phone oh he is nice int, it's charming really. well why not? he's not gonna get any dinner now for that. graham got a letter yesterday. yeah. from that er rehabilitation cen centre in er white, in west white cross. in white cross. he's er got to ring up and make an appointment then go and have it, it is, we are, we would like to invite you to have a look round our shop and see what you can do. oh right so, he's going to have a ring tomorrow and make an appointment and er oh good. and see if he can do something, well he's in the, that, i should imagine he knows what they can earn and what they can't earn. mm. and plus the fact that they suppose, i suppose will be in a position to, if he does alright, be in a position to know the firms that er, that employ 'em. yeah, yeah. graham's problem is the morning. yeah he's alright rest of day, and my problem's graham. yeah. he's walking like that, it's like walking round town with a bloody magnet on your back you know he's there, he's there. you can't move. you know the trouble is you hope, you can't, but, it's not so bad in the big shops cos you can walk out the other yeah. sort of go out another yeah. door the way. he must get fed up mustn't he? ooh he gets bored stiff yeah. never mind. it's difficult pat innit? this is it, let's hope anyway something comes of it oh something'll come. yeah. look at the snowdrops oh i know they're coming up yeah the spring's coming yeah they're coming up yeah everything else is alright it's just that he gets that frustrated yeah, yeah and er you've got to try and be jolly you can't be i've put the phone back. not all the time you can't can ya? no no. you can't. done the dishes love. right i'll make him some dinner and take it up, thanks pat. right never been off the hook. it wasn't off? no oh don't say that to him though, cos he'll blow his top won't he? yeah hiya, i'm just coming up now with you some dinner, er, i don't know whether the cats have knocked it off or have ya? yeah, okay, i've just been to asda so kids are on the way to put the bits of shopping in the van, alright, cos i got 'em some cereal and some bread and i'll bring up the toaster, they can take the toaster with 'em for a while and oh there is, is there? oh well okay then, erm, but i've got 'em cereal and sugar and coffee and tea and bread and some cheese slices to make some toasted sandwiches and, so it should be okay, alright, er, i won't be long, alright, bye . right i'll make him you want one of these buns up but what on earth am i gonna put him in his sandwich now? should of got something, what have i got down there? nothing, huh, spent all that money and got nothing well there's cheese that'll do me what have you got? corned beef i meant to get some bits for us, i might have to go back no mm what time's he finishing work? oh he'll be there all day can i try a bit? quite nice mm what sort of cheese is that one? same as that looks nice there's that unit. they're both because, the other one's got a fault in it and it's not working properly do ya want one? please yeah thank you could've done corned beef hash, could've done some mm couldn't ya? oh do some popcorn, good that popcorn are you coming up with me? e'er no. that's done that will you be alright? mm, mm. i worry about you with them brakes on your car right i'll see you in a bit. alright then. i'll come back and hoover, alright? tell you what, i want to take a bag of crisps, and then if i sit with him erm are we going to see you later then? mm. yeah erm okay, i won't be long. alright. worm stop it er soggy biscuit or what pain, are you being a pain in the bum? becky are you a pain in the bum? pain in the bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, ah teddy look becky, look, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, alright then who's a pretty girl, are you tired? are you tired? now what have you found? that's a zip, get off do you want your jim-jams? becky where's your jim-jams? eh? er there horrible aha becky do you want your jim-jams on? didn't realize they could have, foxes could have nosebleeds can they? oh i didn't know that, what causes nosebleeds? like they do in humans just build up of, erm i was talking to our tom about nosebleeds, alan was saying that his father used to be a lot like david and he used to get terrible headaches and it used to end up in a really bad nosebleed and he started giving blood regular and it stopped it. apparently the body, his body was making too much blood and the only way that he could release it was by building, by nosebleeds it don't make sense does it? what you doing? eh? what you doing? oh crash i'm wondering if, if that's what david needs to do what, what have i got to do with this? does it, is it a nice hat? ooh, it's a crooked hat, where's becky gone? where she at? hello, hello, where's becky gone, boo what's that? where's becky gone? lockjaw no that thing waterproof walking in lake, wahey all cut no oh me knees have you come to yet, is that the one with lockjaw? dead one? ah shame saying er, i was telling it the other day, she said you could spend all that money on and she said, we went to see this horse, it was years ago before they got their own, she said the horse had just had its foal and it was like he'd spent a thousand pound on the, the actual stallion yeah and it come out this, this foal should of been worth, it were due to be worth two hundred and fifty thousand that's what she said yeah it come out with a, a knee injury did it? yeah they come out with all sorts of injuries and you can't do anything about it, so they were going to, they weaned it then they shot it ah no, oh would it of not of been kinder to put it to sleep as soon as it were born? no cos of mother, had to wean it so yeah what? ah one, two, three, up a daisy what, yes boogie, boogie, boogie, boogie, yes aunty teresa's curtains, i don't know how we're gonna fix 'em up leave it until tomorrow i'll do it, we'll do it tomorrow i'll just finish reading this and then i'll er go and do give me a smackerooney, look at that lovely face, a little angel, a little angel get on 'em now did i tell ya? don't lick it yucky, yucky, no don't put it in your mouth, no did you not what wait while we were on holiday? yeah, yeah it's money though innit for ya as soon as you've finished just go, you don't have to stay for your full three hours, nobody's gonna know well her mum and dad will be there won't they? what no they're at work all day oh right only on a friday oh your mum has a day off on a friday does she? teresa, i'm gonna give it back to teresa now becky where's that horse treatment is that a cure? what have you just remembered? i'm sure i've left me bag in back of granddad's car you haven't i brought it in oh good i was thinking about nappies, but i'm not gonna be able to change a nappy, good book that teresa cure is a treatment int it, is it treatment, cure? cure is, yeah its, it makes 'em better, cure is a i don't know any, i'll go and look in dictionary that'll tell us, erm oh sorry no come here i'm sorry darling, but no come here look what mummy's got i said your mum wants play with it sweetheart come here what? becky boo what can you see? what? oh he's watching you he's watching you gonna be next thing, at least it's gonna be right time cos summer's coming up, so i reckon she'll pick it up pretty quick, i don't think you'll have will you not darling? she's pretty, she's bright int she? i mean rebecca ooh little pig coming to get ya, she's coming, she's coming, she's coming i bet you lot don't think so but yeah what elvis? elvis, yeah ha, ha, ha, ha, got ya hey what's that? ooh its a book, a book what's mummy doing? when's that on? it's on on a sunday int it? yeah been on quite a few weeks it doesn't seem two minutes since i saw it last oh big fat tummy, big fat tummy or what? go bang won't it? bang bang, yeah shall we go bang? yeah shall we go bang? you tired it's gonna go bang bang fingernails need cutting, i can't find me scissors yeah they're sharp her nails, yeah she caught my face yeah yeah she caught, yeah who's that? got a lovely smile bang, bang, bang you're not taking it off, keep it on poo, poo smelly trainers or what poo, pooey, stinky, bad, does it smell bad? sam, sam pick up the mustard, say sam, sam pick up the mustard, have they got the right pooey, pooey, pooey she wouldn't normally lie like that would she? what? remember when she used to wriggle about you stink you can't try to crawl off your face is mucky, what can we give your dad for his tea? give him what we had oh yes, there's a tin of oh he wants him to read his favourite story what's up teresa? oh i've been er where's it at? it's in the kitchen int it? on the side by er there you go sweetheart, ah cuddly-duddly i got her that, didn't i, that? mm what have you got? what on earth have you got on? ta, oh you'll have to ask your mummy if it's alright no, you're not playing with that, no she says it was pinched too quick what she gotta wait for? she's got that one fruit salad i know, it's just been made up for her is it not? no she wasn't laying on the floor when she had this on, took it off when she sat down oh of course you did, mummy said no doesn't smell like cat wee it looks quite comfortable have you got a carrier stuff in yeah there's one in the cupboard, yeah at the back coming back in a minute bring us the bird book you brought it then what? bird book where's it at? that, on top of the washing machine ta thanks don't tell me oh no, oh, no your dad'll wait till you come back yeah of course you can, help yourself oh what have you done, fetch it here, where's it at? go and fetch it, give it to nat, good girl ah what have you done? give it nat good girl give it me, ta, where's your, go and get the box down there fetch the box, good girl go and get the box good girl, get the box no, can you get that box please, she's emptied the er wet ones what's mummy got, some milk? some milk, ooh becky's milk you're wonderful aren't ya, oh you're wonderful turn it down too noisy, cos it's loud goodness knows how i'm gonna drag myself out of bed in the morning yeah trouble is i have to leave at quarter to eight tell me what time you have to get up in morning about seven probably, get sorted ah come on trace i'm trying to watch this where you going? what does that that's your good cardy no just a coat just a coat becky boo, beck boo are you going to put your coat on? isn't it funny how she enjoys that, that milk in there what? i don't know, er it's horrible innit? i, it's warm innit, it's it's just what she's been used to innit? yeah that big pussy cat wild thing, i think i love you what is it? it's a pussy cat isn't it? oh! he's meant to be quite sad that he dies does he? yeah does that little boy? yeah, he dies in it oh cos he made the home alone two yeah, i know, but this is not home alone died in real life! come on you, come and put your hand in this sleeve oh no you don't you little monkey i'll have to get one of those what's that? yeah, yeah we will, where'd you buy 'em w h smiths, tescos oh right gives you a list yeah tesco and mothercare, homecare, macdonalds, w h smiths troy houses come on, then we'll go and find them doggies go and find prince and duke princey and dukey, here are mum you'll probably do it better than me prince and duke and pussy cats got her trainers aargh mummy she's not daft you know what? right are you taking teddy home? don't know i don't know what you did with it it's in me pocket got teddies ooh steady steady steady parker, you're such a cutey, i love you to bits right now what you've done say er little vandal's here again yeah becky the wrecker been at it again rebecca the wrecker, give me a kiss give kisses here's teddy, no that's nearly finished hello, hello, what you doing? what are yous doing? eh, what you doing to mummy, eh? what you doing to mummy? what are you doing to mummy? urgh who's that in there? oh right we ready for a run, eh? is that your scarf, is that your scarf? come on puss, shh, shh, shh where's it gone rebecca? where's pussy cat? puss, puss, puss, puss where's it gone ? is he there? can you see him? can you see him? where's the cat? go on out, out cat where's he gone? what's that? ooh big lorry, big lorry, int it? eh, see, what you been doing, eh? what you been doing, tell me, did your daddy, did you talk to daddy? eh, did you talk to daddy? oops stuck, is that stuck? there we go, are you alright daddy? are you asking alright, ask daddy if he's alright, are you alright daddy? come home to rebecca, you tell daddy, ask daddy if he's alright, you do it, alright,you alright , say bye, bye, bye, bye say bye, bye to daddy ooh bye, bye, daddy, say bye, bye to daddy, you alright, yes daddy alright, daddy alright what's in there? no it's stuck, ooh stuck int it stuck, stuck stuck, stuck stuck, stuck,st tt, tt, stuck what's that? ooh, ooh what's on there? eh? that's houses of parliament that is, okay then, okay talk to daddy what have you got, is that your ball? wee, catch, catch, ooh kick kick, you're spilling your milk, ta is that your milk? la, la, la, la ooh is it heavy? ooh is it heavy? where's your book? let's have a look at your book, ooh rebecca, ooh three little kittens, three little kittens, look at the pussy cats, what are they, pussy cats? yeah a bird, isn't it, that's a bird, that's a cat and that's a mitten yeah, its feet, its feet yeah, feet what's that? his tail, is that pussy's tail? ooh some more pussy cats, what's that one? boogie, boogie, ooh you're dancing, you clever girl, ooh ribena berries look at the horse rebecca, the horse. what you up to, i could hear you screaming out there, little monster we've been doing our tricks ain't we? oh yeah that's the first time i've seen her do that, come on you little madam, come on you little madam, let's go and find granddad at work, i know you're a baby well come on there's er alright i've got some quavers at work for her oh alright then, just put it in there, there's some juice and a tie thing right, ma, ma, ma, come on then she'll get ya aargh now you've got ow, ooh you're horrible you, you are you're just horrible, look at that bottom lip we'll do this one first like that sorry about that it's alright oh, oh, wow we'll go and find granddad and richard go and find granddad look she's straightened her arms and i can't get it in you're a horror, you are you, you're just a bloody horror ah you love your mum granddad and richard can't have that one, that one, that's a dirty one did i put her teddy in? ooh better not leave him in the kitchen or the dogs'll eat him they'll eat him them biscuits are alright, them cheap biscuits are they okay? yeah, they're good selection good, that's your milk, milk oh, oh becky boo i'm tired oh steady barker, steady, did you fall over? look at that teddy have you got the yeah in me pocket, lights out, i'm going to put the carseat in who's a clever girl, you dancing? are ya, you dancing oh look at that bird look that bird come out of the cupboard, no can you eat a very big potato? no no, half a one. candice apparently spent all wow afternoon, one afternoon ringing round all agencies, i mean there was no vacancies, but erm will you send us a photograph so if you've got a photograph together and sent it off and then he's on the books oh so, what did she say it was twenty pound an hour? a competition or erm i don't know i read it in a book, the paper over there, i'm sure i did homework? so put down, i've only just missed two things out on health, there was the breathing and erm should be standing in for me on all four feet behind but not four it's quite normal but you, ain't you said about breathing yourself? yeah, erm, i've got erm, i missed out wings, cracked heels and mud fever there, then she put, i will give you a test over the weekend, your work is good, the work so far is good and make sure you understand it if there's anything you don't understand you just ask. look oh yeah, yeah nice paper int it? has it got a name and address on the top corner is yeah he he shouldn't it's not got sarah's name though no it's e j sarah she ate all of that apart from a couple of spoonfuls no you won't get any piece off her teresa no , no, no you know you'll have to do it when she's about, oh steady darling that was my fault look at that mouthful do you want coffee? oh god who's, who's is the book? mine, have a look where'd you get that from? america oh, yeah, you'll need to you want yeah alright i know how to look after books no, i said you'll need to finish that before you look at it oh it's a good book though int it, have a look was that dad? er he's having an extra hour and then he'll be home, what's for tea? i said i don't know boogie, boogie she dances to any music don't she? ooh i like that bit look at her swing those hips wiggle the hips i told ya it's elvis whey elvis reincarnated, i tell ya shake, rattle and roll boogie, boogie you ought to see her face, she's going becky pick your biscuit up twenty four, nearly twenty five dollars, how much is that? twenty five dollars is it about what fifteen pound, sixteen pounds? it wasn't erm, it wasn't a cheap book it was a good book i might start getting some nice ones, them books tracy'd've loved it out there with their books, what was that one we were looking at with and what did it have in it? christmas one it had there was loads of christmas ones you could tie it, it had like pearl, ribbon that you had to tie the book to, to close it, there were some really nice ones weren't there? they had all sorts of ones erm there was a story about a reindeer and the needlework box? oh yeah, there wasn't that erm gar garden centre, it was on the radio today and he's saying erm, i really regret having the face changed, he said i wish it could be back who michael jackson? michael jackson he said i really regret, he said i look a right mess becky, becky have you got a face full again? aargh, no, that's naughty, no bad, you're bad you're bad, mum, mum, mum, mum it's a horse a horse horse horse horse, a horse yes! yes! she's growing fast. oh she's not a baby now is she? no! no. a little girl ! that's what i said. ah! because er look at the colour of her! she's black! she's gorgeous! she's been up to unit yeah. with me so she's, everything up there oh! is mucky! great! so yeah. are you okay? yeah, i'm fine thanks. how's so married life? smashing! good! yeah. good! it is. oh that's good! yeah. i wished i'd have met when i was fifteen ! it's usually er case innit? yeah. you feel you've wasted a lot of years probably yeah. but but only i can say i didn't know before, i thought i was happy. yeah. you can go through it, er you don't realize. yeah, you just you don't honestly realize. no you don't get in a routine and yeah! plod on with that year after year. i mean i hadn't any worries. no, you know no. i've never had any worries or anything like that. but you don't realize course you have. no. just being ordinary and yeah! you know sort of yeah! yeah! george had no affection in him, i found that out. really? no affection. now you surprise me cos i would have thought cos you always went round holding hands and looked so happy. not with george wouldn't have hold your hand. wouldn't have touched you! oh? no! no way! the most affection you got from george was a pat on head! oh crumbs ! oh no, you see he used to say about people that held hands. he used to be quite yeah! about people. oh! i see yeah! yeah! yeah. see it's funny, he used to think all people just, he used to say, oh he's doing that for show. mm. he'd never had affection so he couldn't give it. no. no. you know, but no. i used to make allowances for the way he was brought up. yeah. he was brought up with his grandma and that. well i yeah. thought he's never had affection. no. people of that age, it's like david's grandma they don't know what affection means. no! no! they say we're daft for showing our affection. yeah. but you should do. i only just realized that. well it's taken me a long time to even be able to give affection. yeah. i'm sure. when you're not used to it it's yeah. funny! yeah. you know. oh i think it's all part of it. oh! dennis has got more in his little finger than george yeah. had in his body! well, i think it's but i mean, we can, i can honestly say never go er past we always tell each other we love each other. yeah! and i think you should. you should! yeah. even my dad. i give yeah. my dad an odd cuddle now and again, i'll say yeah. i love you. you yeah. know. i mean it's just, yeah well george wasn't like that. he wasn't like it well he was a man's man through and through. too much i think so. i think life's too short, and i think as you're getting older you realize, i mean like losing my mum now he's worse i he's worse now is george, well i should say worse or better, now you see he'll cry now. yeah. you know. whereas he didn't before? you know yeah. yeah. i mean all he can say now is i've messed my life up! yeah! you know well yeah. that's it. you know, that's it yeah. there int anything anybody can do. well we said over there, i bet he's really regretting how it's all turned out didn't i? yeah. definitely, yeah! i don't know what we yeah. yeah, we were saying i bet george really regrets yeah. what he's done. but you see him, cos he won't register as an alcoholic, he won't no. won't help himself. no. you know. he thinks he it's a shame innit? you know, there's nothing you can do. i mean, to him now all his life is out till half four in the morning blind drunk! you can't be a teenager when you're fifty! no you can't love can you? but, you know don't work. no. and he goes, i mean he went to see my mum and dad before christmas and they didn't recognise him! he's so bloated and, i mean i haven't seen him, i said i've, i've talked to him on the phone. yeah. but i've told him if he ever see me, go other way please! yeah. promise me! i said i don't want to see you! yeah. you know. bad enough and at least, i mean it's not, on a phone you can be upset but yo it's not the same as seeing somebody no. no so it's not. never mind love. terrible that, eh? yeah. i in here but as long as you're alright. i don't know what's happened, cos she went past the shop this morning so how's she doing? well i don't see her often enough now yeah. i don't believe it! she's out with her husband they're all at it now and you know. her husband's from working next door, of all places to co to come! he works in peters next door. i mean, he had all george's things! he had all the ladders were out the van, and he were using all george's tools. oh! see, her husband takes her shopping on a saturday to asda and and why don't you go, i don't know whether they all been together or what? i bet you're just glad you're out of it? yeah. you're glad you're out of it! i'm not . you know ! what? yeah. i don't ask! no. you know no. i'm frightened of answers! yeah ! you don't wanna know. yeah ! oh! no. yeah. never mind. sometimes he'll be in on a monday and he'll say they've broken my ribs and broken my nose! he doesn't know he's done it, you know. oh! god! poor him! ! yeah! yeah. oh aye. what i say, like you say, at fifty you should be settling down. it was like for i could, couldn't i? i'd have been worried,could kill himself! yeah. so tha , i was gonna be catching a weren't i? you tell me i was. i could have hit him! he's, he's burnt! ah! ah! you know, and he'd got you, you can't sort of say, don't ever be in touch with me or don't ever or don't ever no. cos he, he says, he says no. are you alright? he says if you're not getting stronger, you know, he says i'll kill myself if yo if i oh god! if i hear you're not getting any better! i says, i'm alright! is he, dennis looking after you? you know mm. it's like he's got to just keep that little yeah. yeah. thing in touch. he knows you're there. yeah. yeah. he's got to sta you know. oh! yeah. crikey! it's a good job dennis is good. well dennis has got his , dennis knew him you see. yeah. he didn't know dennis,but dennis knew george ! so it's quite yeah. funny really. it's a shame about that. weird! never mind love! right! see you later! see you! tarrah! tarrah! yeah, she needs somebody she does, yeah. to talk to don't she? yeah, she can't obviously talk to her husband about it because george is her ex-husband and he yeah. might get yeah. oh! eh! it's the twenty third . look at all that fish! cor! i hate fish . that will get up trainers. that stuff that i'm buying from that company cleans trainers. oh well i yeah i was just thinking he could do with something on them like. oh that's nice tracy! right. then you can pay me off if you want. it's alright. with that, and that. oh that's expensive! eleven ten, and eleven. why don't you get them? thirty quid's just enough. i don't like those. i like that one. the red ones? what about with a ? no i don't like them. get a ? no it's not, those erm they're like those leggings it's very comfy then? yeah. we used to do that when me and anne didn't we? we always used to have to walk all up london. west end and yeah. see ? yes. yeah. that's right. we're getting somewhere. i don't know lives here. i'm really out of condition! haven't got the age or the inclination. oh ! what are you doing? yeah. that's a nice dressing gown! that's pretty! which one? the pink one? yeah. i got that one. yeah, you said you'd got one er i bought one on saturday. you got , you got one of them did you? er yeah. the the the one with the cord round it. yes. they're yeah. alright. yeah. they are, they're warm. but they wanted, graham wanted me, to buy me one for christmas, i said no! i'll wait till the sales. yeah. i hate buying, i, i, it really narks me! yeah well we're waiting for boots. tracy wants a pair of boots and we're waiting for the sales. yes, well i'll look. i'll see how much they are. yeah. bill couldn't beli well they came down to seventeen pound, i thought well that's not much no. then they come down to that price. i thought, well i don't mind paying that price. if they hadn't have got any on, i'd ha i'd have seen somewhere but else. mum got a . right. i'll ask them when they come yeah. by, yeah. ? over there. back a bit. yeah. yeah. sort of a , never mind! yeah. there's one thing about it, now we're wro right side of christmas. mm. they'll be packing on of season, even if it's that's a funny thing. i know. yeah. i think i might have got in erm . oh good! that's great! at least that'll be something. yeah. yeah. yeah! it will. yeah. what is it? full time. full time? yeah. why not! you wouldn't see me you'll hear her ! oh hello! alright? yeah. see you later! see you! mm mm. you alright? you know annette don't you mum? this is the one with the gorgeous voice! oh! hey up! oh that's right! you know sam? you were saying, yeah. yeah. it's tracy's sister-in-law. of course! yeah? yes. yes, of course. married to tracy's big . big ! looks like david. yeah. the yep! father christmas. yeah. you alright? you alright? yeah, not so bad thanks. yeah. just been at work. yeah. so it's alright? yeah, it's alright thanks! i heard from mike int middle of weekend. yeah, got it done and michael and cath have moved. which mike and cath? you know, cath that does hampers? oh! what, she's moved has she? mm. did she get an exchange one? yeah. yeah. yeah. good! great! so they're, just about sorted i think. are they? mm. she came round on tuesday for my hamper money and she said, everything was cos, i said i'd pay her monthly and she turned up and i said, i thought i was paying you monthly? and she said, that's right you did say, she said i'm all at sixes and sevens she said, and everything's upside down! she said, she said i don't know whether i'm coming or going! oh! oh oh! i know. well, i'll go and get finished and let you get on. yeah. get home now. it's boring life really, innit really? david's been away all week? pardon? david's been away has he? all week? yeah. come back tomorrow. from scotland! mm! all on my own, still working!heaven! nice for a change innit? it's alright first couple of nights, but then you get a bit bored yeah. after a while! no. oh well! at least i've got a skirt. yeah. well go back and get those other things. erm well even if i get, well if i get erm ski pants yeah! well how much will i have spent then? well you've got eighty just spent twenty two pound haven't i? yeah. there. and erm and the ski pants were twenty five pound so, if i spent twenty two there, and twenty five that's forty seven. that's a creda a hundred and fifty nine. well that's alright. that one's the same make. yeah. i like that. yeah. it's got two bits but you, you know what ca cos wo he won't be able to repair it will he? this is nice!not gonna go wrong. well it's made in britain, i wonder who makes it? british steel? don't know. no. does it look about the same size as my other? yeah. i think they're all standard are they? yeah. that one's, i think that's a bit wider that one. i was gonna say, does that look wider? it's the only one, really, that's all white. all white. apart from the and that's hundred and seventy. it's a phillips. but even that isn't really a bad price is it? no. it's not bad, no. it's the phillips? yeah. that i can get repaired, rather ah! than just erm, i like, reason i'm going for that one is my washer is very similar looking yeah. and it and it, you know, it's about the only one that looks anything like it. mm. yeah, well i'm su it's made in the u k isn't it? yeah. yeah. i mean it's got to be the other, of course will be probably it's a good machine. it's getting parts and everything yeah. int it? and then, you can always take out the extra insurance with er, no but it isn't very much for a tumble-drier, for five years and there's no problems that way. absolutely none! no. yeah. and wha what do you do like, about, buy now, and pay july, what does that entail? well what that means is, first of all it's no deposit yeah. free delivery yeah. and then erm in july, you do you don't have to pay out a ha'penny till july and you can either pay cash and get your sixteen percent off free or you can pay terms from july. oh! yeah, well i'll probably pay cash, it's just that electric bill's and gas bill's in. yes i know. i know ! and i, if i pay cash i wouldn't, you know, yeah. i'm wondering if i'll be a bit short. well, well you can always pay with terms if you want. but there's nothing to stop you, if you take it out on terms, there's absolutely nothing to stop you coming in and paying, as long as you pay before july, or by july you get yeah. your sixteen percent off free. but then also you've got, you, if you take it over say, twelve months you've got like a yeah. big safety net underneath you if you, if you find that you don't want to pay it in cash. yeah. i mean, i know it's sort of the cheapest right. and maybe, you know, that's not such a good thing, but we were looking at the phillips, erm mhm. but it's not, like that's got dual heat settings mhm. on int it? that doesn't that's a auto sensor dryer that's why. it automatically turns the temperature down of the drying. you get a choice on that one. that's why. yeah. mm. there's more to be done on that than there is on that, really, cos . yeah. mm. probably. yeah, you're probably right. it's just that my dad repairs mine. i mean oh right! you know, and if yeah. if, as she says he's repaired it so many times! oh course! course he does! but that's that one. i want something that that i can look at that for. erm yeah can i yeah. go with that one? do you want the insurance on it as well? erm yeah, may as well. yeah alright. if it's, if it's not expensive. hi! it's about the drier yeah. with the . right. for this lady. is it the small or the large crossley it's the large one. the large one? the is it eleven pound load i think it is? it's ten or eleven int it? er, er er er er it's one or the other. te er ten, yeah. yeah. right. that's it, the four double one. and, how did you want to pay? erm well i'll pay cash but before july. i will pay it in well i can put it in as cash in july, but you just pay before then, alright? yes. i fancy some sleepers. yeah. just some ordinary ones, just to stick in and leave in all the time. that's nice as well tracy. mm. i like that! int it nice? that's not is it nice. expensive, but again, it can't be real. look at that bracelet! that three hundred and forty pound one. oh that's nice! i quite like that, with that plain gold band. twenty seven that's nice! pound . have they got any earrings? i think i like that brooch! oh that's nice isn't it? it is nice. mm. nothing much, but oh look at the erm things with the brooches! oh int it nice! they're nice! got ages in. yeah. that'd be nice to get like, for teresa, cos she never did get a no. pendant did she? nice coloured one. yeah. like to know though, in case it is anything to do with nigel and then they can get it sorted out. yeah. yeah cos does that stop now, or does it i mean, is that forever? oh i don't know. ha! we'll have to we'll have to write to them. just not bothered about cleaning it out. it doesn't it was so awkward! yeah! may maybe if you had one of those erm little rechargeable things that you didn't have to go and round with leads and things, faffing about you could yeah,jus just clean round it? yeah. be easier wouldn't it? bit of brilliant parking there! yeah. granddad's here is he? yeah. i'll wait for granddad, he's got my diary. i'll go up to the office, that's not teresa's diary, it's mine! get off! he's perhaps walking down town looking for us. i'll bet he will be, you know. can't oh i can't get it open ! who's that? hiya! hello!, hello! hello! hello! hello! that's a nice greeting! are you coming? oh! oh! that's a cheeky rascal! i went up , had a look at neil. so you we oh did you? you weren't here. and then when i come back here you weren't here again! then i had some for the car i thought, go and have a look at tracy. okay. so da have you had a sandwich? no i oh! i thought you meant you'd, you hadn't i got couple of them oh! oh! she's seen you. i'll put her in the pram . oh right. oh! one for you! alright. don't forget your clothes. ooh! ooh! what did you say? oh! i think i need to clean up. ooh! alright. hang on! hang on! while i just put my oranges down. well you've been picking your clothes up are you? ah ! no you're not, we're going. you're going?in the car. well we're going up to unit again. oh! pay them their wages pick teresa up and then out, and then out to us. oh! are so you getting teresa out are you? yeah. oh well you you can manage then i think yeah. with her then can you? yeah, cos er it's about time she started again. go on! come and see your gramps! i've er,tape it for you tonight. oh have you? i don't know whether you've seen it, i think i told you i think he might like it. it's about what's that , not that one from last night no. is it? lone wolf it's called. oh right. bloody good'un too! yo you may have seen it, but it's but it's a good'un! what is it? it's, it's the sort of thing you like. bang! bash! wallop! thump! oh is it? fighting! guns! oh! what is it? i lone wolf it's called and it's all about did you watch that last night on gun runners a, a tough cop with black beard oh! hunting them down, you know wi shot guns and what else! did you watch, did you watch that last night, granddad, on b b c two about that chemical plant? no i didn't love. oh! no. you wouldn't watch it either. yes! what have you got there? here are! give it to granddad! give granddad glass so you don't hurt yourself with it. good girl! good girl! oh there's only room for that , did you find out ? eh? cos there's been ever so many of these things where people have been yeah. persecuted for somebody no it were some spy. by somebody else. yeah, i'll got th for somebody's else's rape. eh? i got you some so! yeah. oh! where you going with that? right! come on! take them with you. come on then! just taking them home. half of them here and look at her! oh! oh! bless her! are you alright when it's dark? yeah. that way! yeah. come on flossy anne! this way! come on! come on flower! who was the fella up there today talking to neil? he, in wha he ha the one had white jeans up. tall and thin? mm. yeah. it was paul. mm. it was, yeah. yeah. can't remember where i've seen him. yeah. he'll have been for his interview and for his wages in calper today. he's finished there. they've made him redundant. they made him redundant. i should think so, yeah! is that your face cream? i just woke up this morning and found it back. are you going with your bricks? daddy's home tonight granddad! is he coming home? on his way home. i thought rita would have been here wi i was surprised to do it. well he , well he went on monday and rita's on college on a monday. oh! come on! bring your bricks! come on! no! put your lid on, come on! we've been christmas shopping granddad. come on! here they are. wee! ee! ? erm, yeah i think so. stay there. getting your christmas yeah. pressies are you? shut up screaming child! wait a minute. hang on! our bonnie's not so good. tracy int she? spoke to her last night. but she's having to go to work. cos she can't afford to pay she can't afford to have time off. stay off. and she was gonna, aye trying to do her ironing because she said if she didn't get it done they'd be all next week's as well to do, and i said to tracy what's he doing all day? sat on his arse! he'd do bloody ironing! poor lass! what a shame. bye-bye! see you! see you! see you tomorrow. see you tomorrow! see you granddad ! ah! little horror! bye bye! oh well! she's a rubbish! int she? perhaps see you later. alright? alright? see you later gramps! blow kisses. blow kisses. blow granddad kiss. blow kisses blow him a kiss. oh stop it! mm. she's not interested with us. ha! mind her head on that wheel cos it's got some if she gets it her hair won't she ? yeah! i should say ! think it will. she's turning it round. did, yes. keep waving to granddad. wave! you rogue! i hate rushing off but should have brought another tape. tt! this one runs out appreciate it. maybe he's feeling the heat. mind you, i think it's quite mild. and it's not cold , it's cold. yeah. you know? he didn't have a scarf on this morning. his big one? oh yeah! of course, yeah. woo! woo! great! i didn't ask pat how graham was going home? bet she's, she's quite relieved. yeah well she was saying other day she's he's never away from her he's a damn nuisance! yeah. well it's bound to me, he must get fed up, but eh, he don't really want a job like, full time, he wants to be able to he gets fed up of it being full time after a while. yeah. it's no good for, let's face it like cos i'm gonna have to start er no. it's a pity he couldn't stick to something like that cos i mean ex-policemen can get jobs like that no trouble can't they? and i mean, somewhere like asda is a better place to work than most. aren't you coming in today? no. mm. no, i suppose, in a way, he's lucky because he'd, he'd probably just be able to get a job anywhere really just as security. yeah. well i've just seen did you cotton on to that, it's not just me? you know julie that had sebastian aye cos , that baby yeah. i've just seen her going that way, and i've just seen skinny mick that she used to go out with a she had baby to, coming this way. i don't really know her that well. i didn't think, i thought they hated the sight of each other. i hope sarah wouldn't expect julie to stay any later would she? with her driving the i never thought of that. gary , is he, is he the other brother? yeah. she sleeps with gary. yeah. and how many has peter got? just the two, or three? i don't know, tracy. i dunno. he's just got the two ain't he? james and peter. has he? peter's alright. have you met him? yeah, he was in this morning. he's works down at in tra trailer place. oh teres is teresa's the wo the one that teresa said he's al he's a bit of alright? or, is that not him? no. it must be yes. the other one. no, it will be. teresa thinks he's alright, but i think he's . he's got long hair! and he's er could be a right slob! what's the other one called? the other well as far as i know erm peter and james, but james is the eleven year old there's another one that works at erm down at a trailer place, is that gary's son? must be gary's son she thinks is okay. one's got curly longish curly hair, is quite broad built. i don't know if it's gary's son mark, he's about sixteen does he live er in a flat on sandylands peter. i don't think we, we might . yeah. quite possibly. well, i bet daddy's on his way home now. sarah's going quite , int she really,? yeah. yeah she has. i wonder if it's that every day ? i would, i would think so. oh no! she used to be head stable girl didn't she? when his wife were there. oh! did she? yeah. but i would imagine that's what she wants to train teresa up for, so she can just run it and she can sort of well that's fair enough so she can . well yeah. what? there's john. did he ask you about steam cleaner? no. not at all. he was coming in of a about a fortnight ago, we were just pulling away and he said to teresa are you still doing? and she said yeah. he says, oh he said when you see your sister will you ask her about steam cleaner? and we said, oh she's in now! go and see her. he didn't come in then? no. oh! ah! we're going to have to come back up here aren't you, to drop alan off? yeah. not unless alan drops his car off. alan could drop david off. unless they've got loads of gear, er they need lo unloading. mind you, they could do that tonight can't they? yeah. cos van's not going back in morning. yeah. cos it's friday innit? well we should in time for tonight. yeah. i wonder if it'd worked out tomorrow? had philip called ? has one of them got that ? what about? going . yeah! oh! they've been in touch and they said everything's going through, it's oh great! d'ya need any money to set up? no. ah! what? i'm coming for yo get you out. yeah, i'm coming. come on! yeah! you're a cheeky bab-bab. look! aren't you? yeah! don't we know what a cheeky baba-ba you are! sorry? look, there's that look. mm. right? go, go and see granddad! go see granddad! this way. here he is. it's not hiya. what's the matter? what are the ser terms? thirty days. but they're not paying thirty days. i've just explained that to him. and he said he didn't know that, that he would get hold of sen and ring me first thing, thing in the morning er, to tell me why sen hasn't paid. he's got the invoice and everything. i said well you've sent us twenty thou i said there is no v a t on it which it should be! deary me! he says. has he got the invoi ? i said yes. and i said, we've been having, having the invoice outstanding since october at two and half thousand pound! i said, you actually owe me six thousand, one hundred and odd! and i said, you must realize i've a small company, and that's, in one respect that i've had to send those conditions because you're failing to meet the agreed thirty days payment! yeah. and i said it's not on! i said we couldn't survive like that. and he said, well would you like to carry on with the contract? i said we're too far committed now to, i says to back out. i said, you know, we can't back out at this stage. and i said, but i said if there isn't the payments of the invoice when they are sent then you know, we've go you've gotta look at it. so that invoice wants doing. yeah. it wants doing and sending, and put in i put twenty eight days on. yeah. had to be paid, it can't be paid by the twenty eighth it's er you know well if i could've got hold of david or er, andrew , i was gonna give andrew a right bollocking for just pushing it in and he should've sent it to er, michael , michael 's just got it shoved in front of his nose a in edinburgh. he's just gone in to see if everything's alright at edinburgh and of course, that's why he's had to report for that. which was fair play to him, but bloody andrew should have told him! it's agreed, the system of stage payments, it's all written to him. and you've just spoken to him have you? i've just spoken to michael . michael's great! and you, you so he understands after he's sent you this? what? what's going on. yeah. because yo di i said i had to send that agreement because you're failing to meet the standard agreement, you're not paying within the twenty eight days or the thirty days! mm. i said i've got an invoice outstanding for october, and i said i can't afford to do that! he said, i realize that. then he said, we wou want you to do that work he said, because you've got a good reputation. it makes, you know, if we we're not gonna go bust just to get twelve months bloody work out of him on a service contract! you know, but i if we couldn't, if they we as they said, if they wanted that money back tomorrow we could only give them half that money back because of what we've got mm. er, you know, but, we might as well just say to everybody, david, geoff, ian yeah , well that's it. ta-ta! you know yeah. yeah. you're sacked! the lot of you! they've got a meeting with r f s next week. supposed to have. but i'd, i'm gonna phone er, thing, because i think that's just a con. can you get hold of andrew? no! i've been ringing him since that come through half an hour ago. tt! see i hoped wi david to ring me before half past three before he sets off, and he hasn't done yet. i've more need to get hold of davi er to get andrew and er because he's at mill hill with sa with steve and er nigel. we're not shouting at you. no,. . go on then. hey! oh god! is it worth it? you wonder, don't you? it isn't, is it? what's these r f s then? oh! it's an engineering firm at doncaster. hello you! aye. eh eh eh eh! she got quite worried when you went out before. thought she were gonna cry. so are you, happy really though that now you've spoken to him maybe it'll be better? well i hope so, yeah. cos we can always drop them in the shit! no doubt about that. only thing yeah but i need to do is when lifted the coaches and take the axles out is just er pull my men out. cos i'm certainly not holding back on bloody er jobs now, gotta get charged . have to send them an extra invoice for this extra our time. ! oh yeah! bingo! good afternoon! it's neil at lancaster and carriage and wagon. how's how's my parts? okay. i'll pick them up, if i don't pick them up tonight i'll get them first thing in the morning. because i've got a load more coming down for you. they're on their way out from edinburgh now. okay? magic! bye . cos wha what did we actually tell them in ours? that everything we just belonged to us tha well all that was said was, really, they had twenty eight days to pay. yeah. and if they didn't pay within them twenty eight days or what i've gotta let them before the know is really, and it's in the file, if they do pay up at the last we've just gotta get yeah, but that's what they said that th the conditions of contracts that we sent, they don't agree with. that's what they're saying. well really, what did we put on that they can't agree with? th th different yeah they've already put invoices paid thirty days. thirty days. that's what we put, twenty eight days. yeah. the only other thing that we put is that i thought she were gonna throw up then. that erm when the contract's finished, if they don't pay up within a certain date oh! that we can go and take the stuff back that we've brought. yeah. well go and find him then! go and find granddad. go on! go and find him. go find him! oh dear ! right? not been our day at all has it? no. come on then. we'll go and get back into the car. go and pick them shoes up and then go to . does this mean now a retention of significant capital works out at ten percent? i don't know. i don't like this bit either. summat a all to be carried out in a much better spirit and both parties were pleased with the result. yeah. but yeah. so why are they having a meeting with them next week? right. there's no reply dad ! try again in a bit. i'll see you later! bye ! bye! see you later ! tarrah! see you richard ! see you ! see, you see it's okay this guy being funny like that but we er we, i think we've got every right to be d'ya mean if we hadn't actually have been starting the work, heaven knows how long it would have been before we'd actually got the invoices paid! nigel must have got his money through else cos he was er on the train yesterday wasn't he? i think they heard you state, say how is steven and no, they haven't given it to him. they haven't? no, he's erm that's what erm andrew's er was meeting with er the chairman for this morning. oh! andrew's actually having a meeting with him is he? sorry! is that me? yeah, he's going up on, to the today. do you think he's gonna go even more berserk when andrew tells him they've changed the two nights accommodations? no. yeah. i hope not, for them. they don't want to. no. well i'd tell you. yeah. i want to see the receipt. can you dig that receipt out for me this morning? i've got it! but harringtons. the harringtons one? yeah. i want to put back in my pocket. it's that total i want. yeah. did you have a word with angela about p forty fives? no, cos i thought you were going in friday. no, i erm i'm going today actually. monday. you were go you're going today? i'm going today, yeah. when i've finished. oh right! give angela a ring. couldn't give her a ring could you and ask her if she could have one ready for us? yeah, okay. yeah. ta! just explain what it is. yeah. cos all i'll get off jim is a load of crap! won't be able to get int office! you see? yeah. right, i'll give it a go. have you got some crisps? cor! i'm getting the hang of it here! ! ah! don't kick rebecca! anybody got any idea of the number? eh? telephone number of counter? ? no that's tracey . no. hang on. it's double double summat, hang on, double summat int it funny how typical! yeah, i'll have to look it up, yeah. mind your head. what? mind your head. i'm okay. how are you feeling? morning! morning john! how are you? not so bad. are you love? how's the hand? it's still a bit stiff, but it's back to work monday urgh! yuk! so that's alright. yeah. haven't spotted a little steam cleaner like, have you? no. i was only talking to her yesterday, i thought you'd come in and asked her? no, i haven't seen her love. well cos that morning i'd said she's in there, and we thought you'd been in. so when i sa i saw her yesterday i said did john come in and ask you? she said no. i said oh well, he wants to borrow it, so ready for getting rid of it now see. are you? yeah. right, okay then. whoops! steady darling! we'll put that there. what? hiya smiler! how you doing? eh? what you doing smiler? we picked up mark last night on way home. mark? you know that young friend ? oh did you? yeah. going back to her car but oh! alan was likely in for a treat ? was he? actually, we'd had erm er clive in yesterday hadn't we? and he was saying who? to neil, clive. er ah! yeah. aye. and he was saying to neil that erm they don't know whether they're gonna keep him on or not and it's a shame because he's, he's a grafter, you know? yeah, he is. the only thing is he he needs educating. you know, he hasn't been shown. he's not been taught. he's just been oh he hasn't! left to it. no. he's never been yeah, it's a shame innit? you're on. i think i switching hands i didn't like that one. what you doing? that last one? yeah, still not playing . what you doing? getting . come on then! let's go down to see granddad. see how he's doing. oh! go see granddad. go see granddad. what th granddad's doing. let's look. let's look down here. ooh! steady! what's he doing? urgh! gonna eat all dirt! go on and give him a kiss. what you gonna play? he's down there. neil. go past that, then there's one or two ne ne newish buildings and then you come up to a spot where you drive in and you go up or over the concrete, that's norblast yeah. well as you're facing it's sign and print shop or print shop mm. it's the sign writing shop, well it's actually norblast that's on your left, it's got a, a big glass erm like an office there that they don't use, you yeah. can either go through that door or pull sliding to. i'll look,check out for this you know. angela just said to just alter it on the p forty five, but she's got to do it . well, well that's what i said, but she says can i not just alter it and leave it at that? what to, to different week? yeah. well yo she said i thought i was a week out she said. but you see, that won't be right for year end will it? it won't tally with her. er she, was she on her own? did she sound like she was it didn't sound like it, no. so i don't know. i'll pu i'll nip down to see pat and ask pat what she thinks i should do. what do you think of them racquets, richard? which racquets? th the racquets, i know. no not yet, no. no. just get these right i'll make this cheque out. just the amount that's on this? yeah. this where you going? you escaping? after the one off victory! come on, in here! what? annette! what? she's shouting at you. aren't you? did you do overtime for last week? there was none was there? there was! there wasn't. for last wednesday. that was week before wi er, that was we paid him last that that you've got written down there we've paid him that. it was last week, they had normal week didn't they? no we went to peterborough, two of us, three of us didn't we? that was week before. they've had two weeks of overtime ain't they? no, one. two. oh well they've only, nobody's complained. there's been two weeks with overtime. cos richard and su er alan had seven hours last week when we went to er peterborough. oh! i didn't and it was the week before that we went to you'll have to put your dates on cos i, i couldn't yeah it fathom out it was the week before that we went to er well i don't know. if it's not written down i don't know when they've had or what they've had, you'll have to write it down and put a date on it. and then, when i know what i'm doing, i thought that they'd just had that. no. well leave that there. okay. where are you going? you going over there? what's wrong with her then? ooh! watch her a minute. lancaster,. can you just hold the line ? neil, it's michael . yeah. hang on a sec. morning michael! great! yes. no, no problem. no . here he's po processing it monday. and it'll be in the post today. po post . no, no doubt about it. and he said he's telling him point blank that he's, if there's any problems with invoices or anything, you have to deal with andrew, he has to come back to me and deal with me direct! so he's realized how long you've been waiting? yeah. and he said, it's not on, he said what he, he said er getting the money he said we've got a lot of money in american bank and he said and getting that back it's just a pain in the arse! it's a bloody nuisance! and it's not often michael swears. and, he said it's a bloody nuisance! he said, but he said it doesn't give us the excuse of not paying the invoices on time, and he said erm i have warned him for it this morning and he said he will process it, and he said the cheque will be in the post here on monday. well he told you twenty four hours didn't he? forty eight hours. forty eight hours. ye well i told him that, yeah? he told you. then he, then he has a day off! i said yeah. i couldn't get hold of him yesterday! he said he's had a day off! so so he's telling us a load of bull! ben? ben, yeah. yeah. so mi i said well i apologize for sending all that sir, i said, but i said it was the only way to get somebody's attention of what was going on! and he said, i do apologize, he said, for the mucking about, he said we want to work with our sub-contractors very, very, closely and have a good er relationship with them for ongoing work and stuff like that. and he said i i agree with what you say, it's not the principle of, of making everybody wait like that. no. well, that's fair enough. d'ya think we've got it well he di no. he's he's got that and he's bound to get his earache what? can i have one? he's bound to get an earache er, this morning because ma er, andrew's gonna give him one and if nigel and er and steve see him, they'll give him one because their outstanding invoice. yeah. we need some steel for them hanging graphics. yes i know, but we're not er we won't fiddle about with them until we get well on to the way because if we do that now we gotta take the welder up, you've only gotta cut them off again because they're in the way for the rest of the bloody coaches. yeah. and that's what they've been cut off for. yeah, but the thing is i we can get the steel er and make them up but we don't have to put them on till later. yep. is there a stubbler no. they've just about been cut flush. they've been cut with gas axe. oh! perhaps we could er yeah i know. aye. bolt them on? no, they've not been,th they've just like been cut flush. we welded. come on . geoff! geoff! i've spoken to angela and angela said, just alter the week numbers on the, on your p forty five, but as i've just said to neil if i do that, that is gonna throw it out for year end when i give you yo your green slip. on angela's side, not my side. yeah. what numbers have i got? yeah. has she got them all? well she said, i've wrote ours wrong she said because but i she carried on from pat . yeah. yeah she knows. well only thing, the only thing you can do if you got any p forty fives? i have. yeah. well just write another one out and check the numbers on it you know,and send that. and send that. yeah. that'll be easiest thing to do. messing about with or do we have to no problem. yeah. cos if there's any handwriting on it, i'll forge it for you! it's just ridiculo i mean, she wants to write that down really i'm, i i think it's because the her hands tied behind her back. yeah. i know what's happening down there. i tell you! i've gotta go down and see them anyway. yeah. but , i mean, well you can do that anyway, just sort of make a co write a yeah just new one with all the just just forget it then. yeah. yeah. right. i'll get on with this then. erm she makes erm get him to make you a new bag look. oh oh! are you what? are you coming? she , it wouldn't be bad if she'd sit in there. i don't know whether to take her home or i want my er if you're going back for dinner, i want my camera and my film. there's my there's a black film somewhere kicking about. in a new one, in a box. and i want my camera to get a photograph of this when we get it outside. okay. right. so you feel happier now you've spoken to him this morning? yeah. yeah. what? what? what? come here! i'm coming! yeah. yeah. it's on there. it's on that side as well. there. i mean for him to ring you back and speak to you,i i he, he's been concerned about it as well. yeah. he's probably walked in and seen that and thought, i'm not having this and when he sat down and thought about it, like we've done yeah. it's erm i wonder if he's spok if he's got andrew with him now? no, he's int office. don't forget the film. it's just that i don't want erm oh! look at state of you! let's go and get you brushed off. here are. what? let's go and get you brushed off. what? what you done? hey ? what you done? come here! stand here on the box. that'll, that'll be as bad, now you're sat on that box. let's brush you off. ooh! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! oh! oh! ha! ha! ha! ha! come on with me. come on with me. yes. what? there. is that right? eh? is that right? rebecca! you are hard work! richard! does this want to tape up or anything? no. that's what? she's dead hard work! she won't be picked up or she's enjoying wandering round now. yeah. trouble is it's you know i worry about her being, getting in yeah i know. enjoying them crisps! what? what do you think next step should be neil? do you think solicitor or no. i think we ought to go and talk to them first and exp you know, put our side forward and if they don't want to play then, then you have a solicitor. but really, you already have. because you, neil's already spoken to them about how late th the thing was coming in the first place no and they've just ignored it! well there's no harm in having one last try is there? oi! no! what you doing? trouble is that well if they owe us money and stuff like that, we might have to be going to court in the end with it but the only trouble is, we're losing that much bloody time taking a day off and going down there! yeah. this is it, you've hardly time. well that's what i say if you go down on er sunday, but they won't be there, we'll have to make a organize a . what? aye, they're a bloody nuisance! rebecca! you just get sick of problems don't you? it's just seems well they tend to come in batches don't they? you know yeah. we have a quiet period for a while and then all of a sudden they all crop up together. i mean, at least, the one and you, you stand there at end of day and think well is it our fault or what? yeah. , we won't be dealing with anybody else for a while, i can tell you . aye. well it makes you wonder mind you, if you look at it like, like . yeah, but if, should we say well we acc we'll accept half of it and and no! it's we, we shouldn't accept anything that you know, we, we don't think's correct! in fact, we know it's not correct. yeah but they might say, well alright then, and then pay out and as it is we're gonna have a lot of messing about haven't we? anyway, i'll get in touch with mike and see if er he's heard from insurance people for cos i've already asked mike but ? he said he'll ta no, to court if it goes to court cos the insurance we've got out. oh right. see if they'll pay it, he was gonna get back to me today. and then we can go to mrs , and let mrs write a letter. oh! her mum's still in manchester . some of it you can't keep int office and right! can you put kettle on richard? i will do. what? let's look at your trousers. look at the state of you! your mum is going to do her nut! look at your coat! let's let's take this off first and brush this. let's have this first. can daddy have his keys? no? i need to unlock the door. daddy wants his keys rebecca. here are, you have something else. don't know what, but have something oh! else! what's this here? what's this? don't know. ? joking! here, what's this one? what's this one? swap you? she won't let me have them! bye. bye-bye! yeah. bye! bye! says i'm in charge! good! good! won't have any bother from the natives then will we? eh? i see! oh right! oh i see! yeah! so what? who's that? that's you! isn't it? that's you! what? what's all this lot? yes. you go on your and get down there with that lot. oh i see. they'll give you hand to lift it out. oh right er and they'll probably put it on a pallet anyway, they normally do. ah! what have you got now? i'll just go and get er oh do you want my crisps now do you? now you've scoffed your own! thank you. mm. i see! yeah. what? hey i've told you, you're not to take that from the w d and all! no you didn't. yeah i did. i said fill your er pots up. give you a load of bloody pots and you take it off and we're standing around looking for it! ah. you've not even made him a potful. do you? rebecca's here. she's got some quavers. she'd rather have mine instead! yeah. and she's got a trifle. it needs sticking on your wall cos she's pulled the back off. no, you've got greasy fingers! you've made a mess of it now look! yes you! that's you! now what you after? hello. is it possible to speak to pete please? oi! er peter . it's neil at lancaster it's mine! and carriage . that's daddy's. i don't care what you say think! no! what do you mean, no? it's mine! it's mine. ta! no! a duel, is that what it is? hi peter! it's neil. not too bad. this trailer will be ready for pick up about three. if it's possible? great! yeah i er, just depends when you wanna do it. er er, at the end of the month. right. great stuff! ah! right. no problem. is that for me? you want my crisps . okay. well i'll pop down this afternoon. that's got nuts in ain't it? yeah. alright. grand! erm, i'm being nosey now you've got a box, er, horse box behind your building a blue one it's a double wheeler horse box,i is it yours or is it for sale? yeah. no. right. no i bought one for teresa but er, when it, the chap saw it to collect it he come wi he come in and he said er you don't know where there's another one? and of course, when i was down there sunday, i turned round there and i said er, and he came in last night, again, he said you don't wanna sell it? i said, i don't. er and he said i'm after one for my horse. i said, well i said er i'll ask peter, i know there is one down there but whether it's for sale or not, i said i'll be cheeky this morning and ask him. alright. i'll what's that? yeah. who? her. aha. right. oh it's a worm! yeah. yeah. it's a she seashell. yeah. yeah. well they have a worm inside don't they? well this one of mine, i had a good deal with this one. they have a crab. erm about a crab is it? i got it in erm a shop with . no it won't be. might be a a sea urchin. and he came in with yeah. and took the job that was supposed to go into south africa. look at the colour of my coat with becky's shoes! and also keep that for and take that have you seen that, look? and use it as a big horsebox. and, it's madam's shoes! it is! and then of course, he spotted it and he come er come winging in! yeah. what? looks like you. yeah, that's right. like you. right. th the borford ones, have they got bigger than the standard? it must be an a, because he, he, he, he said he'd got chance of one but it did whacking great six inch er sixteen inch wheels on! i said, what? i said . yeah. oh i see. put them on, yeah. yeah. right, okay. i'll tell him. and i'll see you this afternoon. bye! bye . see they got said whenever we want these trailers, they're different to what this is. that's it! you tell them! tell your dad to get his arse off and get this stuff delivered! you tell him! that's see it, bog off! you got it right! yes! who is that daft sod? who is it? daft! ah! ah! ah! ah! ah! daddy's tea. ah! just had a thought oh! are you staying here with annette? are you staying with me? or you coming for a ride? d'ya think she'll be alright? i dunno. she must int car seat. well see. it's just when you get out and on road int it? that you shouldn't have any trouble though. she'll sit there and watch won't she, while you are you gonna put your coat on? are you coming for a ride with daddy? good girl! first time she's ever put it on without whingeing! oh i know! i know! let's have this other sleeve. hold that. hang on! oh! oh! ah! ah! hold that with that hand. that's it. oh i see. do you want me to put her car seat in van? yeah, please. i've gotta go up to. right. if we get her your vehicle looked very nice! that one? it's nice! they've changed the advert in the steam world magazine and put end of that in. yeah. we're talking about your one outside. we're talking about your one outside. oh! that one? oh! oh! i haven't seen it before. oh! haven't you? very nice! it's brilliant! takes me that long to get them now. yeah. ah well so well so we, somebody said you'd emigrated like. yeah right. yeah. i haven't got much territory now. i'm all over the place! have you? mm. yeah. do half of preston's you see. yeah. you know , blackburn and burnley,and all that round there. accrington, wetheral, longridge. jeepers! you get about all over the place! a bit then? have you got pen and paper with you? and cumbria for dixons. so like it's a massive area now. yeah. have you got any pen and paper? i'll get i want one. i'll get one. i want a quote. yeah. inch and a half box section. ten by eights? yeah. very good! and i want some erm the cheapest meshing, but i don't want big meshing. i want a price because we're still waiting to hear from er . oh! look at that! isn't it straight? look at that! it's come out. oh! i've got someone coming . yeah, it's funny, usually find with joiners i don't know,i they're supposed to have a good eye for strai yeah. but they haven't! i know. it's amazing that! yeah. yeah. yeah. and i, well i,he didn't get here till about half past ten! but put a nail in put something like that that's about right no, actually it's not . is it just held on with like, a couple of nails or yeah. yeah? then it's put on top. won't get that back from . right. i'll see if i can was it? down there. mm. that was i'm going to put it out there where they won't mm. no you've done mm. you've done very well! haven't you really? your first your first year. yeah we did well but erm we shouldn't have like, you learn by your mistakes, but we we kind of made profit and we shouldn't of done yeah. erm, and now the tax man has hammered us so hard yeah. that we're really struggling! yeah. yeah. and we're really having to struggle to sort of make ends meet. yeah. i know what you mean. you it's a diffi it's difficult it's wrong int it? just striking up that balance int it? yeah. isn't it really? and of course, now they when we originally moved in here we asked about the rates and they said oh they co they wouldn't raise it because it was an unfinished project yeah. and nobody had paid rates, and they wouldn't pay rates until they'd actually finished building on the land opposite. yeah. anyway, when the accountant came in to do the books he said er, oh he said you've got to pay something. so he said, i'll get onto them myself. anyway, apparently, he was told exactly the same thing as i was told yeah. but of course, it had kind of stirred up a hornets' nest! next thing they were down with the measuring up and we'd just got a four thousand pound rate bill! and, they've actually rated it at ten and a half thousand erm payable yeah. three thousand eight, and of course, well neil said there's v a t, i didn't think you had to pay v a t on rates? i didn't, i didn't, you know, i don't you know? yeah. er anyway so tha that's sort of you know, made mm. a big difference. that's suddenly four thousand a year we've to find. yeah. i mean, if, it's crippling us is this place! yeah. if it wasn't for this we could be it would be quite good. yeah. yeah. but what can you do, there's nothing else about? no it's that's it. and a lot of businesses up and down are er are in a bad way, really. yeah. some very sailing very close to the wind. yeah. they're all finding it hard aren't they? well, there's less and less work and the work that does seem to be about is that competitively priced that yeah. you know, it's negible whether you can make anything even if yeah. you get the work. yeah. and then of course er money is floating round very quickly. no. no. i er, in fact, we, yeah, we just had a problem yesterday, we started work for the royal scotsman and erm well we started work for them, like last year and we've been doing jobs yeah. and we've had invoices outstanding since october. yeah. so neil said, well these invoices weren't forthcoming, so i said to them, the thing, the thing is, if we start work and we buy a load of equipment how are we gonna sort of, how long's the cheque gonna, gonna be coming in, you know. and you have to fund it. so we asked for twenty thousand pound upfront. tt! so, anyway, and they said, and before we wi we get this twenty thousand we also want the ou october's invoices clearing up as well. so, that was great. anyway, we've waited and waited we've rung and we've rung! eventually a cheque came, instead of being like, for six thousands er, nearly seven thousand it came for four! yeah. erm, the twenty thousand eventually arrived, no v a t. you know yes. and all this sort of things. so, of course, we were getting a little bit panicky cos what's worrying me, and it still worries me again we've put all this time and effort in they may pay us alright, we've got this twenty, they may pay us a second payment, but are they gonna pay up on the third? well tha that's always the catch isn't it? you know? the last one. yeah. so we actually wrote down erm th the equipment that we were buying was ours until paid for in full. yeah. by them. yeah. and we sent this letter up to them. well we've had their director on the phone, phone yesterday and more or less demanded his twenty thousand back yeah. and, if you don't want the work we'll take it elsewhere and all this. mm. erm puts you off doesn't it? well i mean, what on earth do you do? yeah. very difficult isn't it? you just well ne both neil and i have sort of felt well, to be quite honest it isn't worth it. yeah. for what you make at the end of the day on, on somebody's no it's not worth it. it yeah. well it, the running the business isn't i don't think because by the time the tax man's hammered you yeah. you know, the v a t man wants his money, i mean the v a t man's been paid for all these invoices yeah. and i still haven't got the money in. yeah. yeah. you know. everything's against you! really v a t's, i think, and i think it should only be paid when it, when the invoices exactly! have been cleared, rather than always paying exactly! for that quarter yeah. even if you've not got paid. yeah. exactly! erm mm, i don't know whether there's any way round it but that's sort of the set up that they gave us when we started and i guess i'll have to sort of conform to that, but it yeah. does seem unfair. yeah. that's right. i mean now there's a couple of people quibbling about actually paying at the that we did. yeah. there's still six hundred and odd pound outstanding. erm i can't honestly see us ever getting that. yeah. erm the funiculars they're quibbling about the final payment. yeah. about them being late and everything else. er, you know, it's just a, and i've paid for that and that and there's extenuating circumstances like that oh dear! though isn't there? as neil said. well yeah! changes in specification yeah. er, equipment coming in late, er yeah. you know, i mean they don't seem to want to know though. i mean, neil's tried to explain to them that, they were late with drawings and everything else, it put us way behind in the beginning. yeah. but all, you know, they've just not listened to him! yeah. so yeah. i guess it'll it's er stal stalling they're yeah. cos that's all it's doing innit? yeah. well solicitor said she, it sounded to her as if there's something more to it. maybe they don't have the money. yeah. yeah. and they're stalling all the time. yeah. yeah. but erm you see, they suggested going down for a meeting he's up to his eyes in it! yeah. and yeah. he can't honestly spare time to go down there it's costing you money isn't it? well yeah and chase your own what's due to yeah. you. that's, that's the . and we know you're gonna have an argument. so is it worth it? yeah. yeah. i, i, i personally feel that give it to solicitor and let her deal with it, because yeah. yeah. just not worth the hassle. alright yeah. that's gonna cost yeah. but, but i mean you can only make it worse by like you say, you're wasting your own time and money yeah. you're not gonna get anywhere! yeah. yeah. all gets i mean a bit acrimonious doesn't it? and er yeah. don't it? er that sort of thing starts happening. oh it's painful! yeah. it really is painful! yeah. it's getting ever more difficult isn't it? doing yeah. business. ever more. yeah. you just i,th all this bumph about sort of trying to help small businesses and, things like that, they do nothing! no. no i know that. they do nothing at all! yeah. no it's er as you say, all, all the cards are stacked i in yeah. such a way that it makes it ever more difficult. yeah. the trouble is, see you know, you've nobody you can go to, you, you've nobody that sort of will listen to yeah. to all this and do something about it higher up. yeah. i mean they just keep hammering and hammering and more and more are going out of business. yeah. alright,th the saying in the paper, they're talking about stopping these big companies, keeping these little companies waiting there could be something they can do about that, but how long is it going to be before they do something? yeah. yeah. it's a in the meantime there's more and more going bust every week! well the trouble is, a lot of these mps and people on these committees are actually they've got seats on the boards of a lot of these big companies yeah. so it's not in their interests to push this through. the longer they can stall something yeah. like that yeah. er, you know, the better it is, and particularly when you look at the the fever that there is at the moment about electioneering yeah. is, is no big business isn't it? no, that's true. i mean maybe i should go and see local erm mp or local m p. whatever and, and, about the rates. yeah. and see, you know, if they can do something about that, maybe it'd be right time. yeah. bu cos we're actually the only ones that have their rate bill barry's hasn't. yeah. so, you know, they're yeah. just expecting us to pay! yeah. yeah. i would. and it's yeah. that's what they're there for! well, yeah that's true! whether you've voted for them or not. yeah. and , you know in fact yeah. you pay your taxes and, and yeah, it's very true that. you know, it can have . i might do that. yeah. because if, if they've singled yourself out, it's, obviously, it's not right is it? no it's not. well i said, well i'm not paying mine until somebody else gets theirs. yeah. and have to pay theirs. yeah. but erm i suppose next thing'll be a court demand and, how d'ya fight that? yeah. so it's all a worry innit? yeah, int it? oh! headache stuff! never mind. yeah. yeah. never mind! oh well, keep your head down. yeah ! yeah. at least there isn't the same hassle as there was at calpers yeah. i mean alright, yes, you sort of have worries, but most of the time, i mean, for all last year it's run pretty well. yeah. it's only just recently that we sort of starting our de we've had bits of aggro. yeah. or at least, like so with this,a all the benefits are, you get them personally don't you? yeah. yeah. er rather than yeah. doing the same amount of hours er and somebody else benefiting? that's it! yeah, that's it. yeah. yeah. i mean, it's, like his car for instance, i mean, that's always been a dream he never thought he'd ever be able to afford a new car, erm yeah. you know? yeah. and er, of course that's like a dream come true for neil, so yeah. that's yeah. why we want to make a success and he don't lose it all ! well, you know, you've got to have er benefits of, of taking a course of action like this haven't you? because yeah. otherwise you know yeah. what's the point? that's it. what's the point? i mean i that's it. it's not that people want to get rich, it's just that you make a nice living and enjoy yeah. what you like doing and that's it. yeah. you know? yeah. yeah, can well do without the sort of, the hassle and the aggro. i mean,calpers have made it a lot worse for us. yeah. they have. they've done yeah. everything possible to make life difficult! yeah. but er hopefully they'll leave us alone soon. but it doesn't help when we bring people like geoff you see, cos geoff comes from calpers oh i don't, oh right. oh yeah. he did. i de i didn't recognize him. really angry about it because they've had to bring somebody else in to do geoff's work. yeah. yeah. right. so i mean it was geoff's choice. yeah. well, this is it, i mean, people you can't make people do things, i mean, they've got to no. want to do it haven't they? so yeah. this well is it. we've done very little there. they ju just don't seem to be doing any steel work at all. no. well, everybody keeps telling us they're not doing anything. they just don't know how they're surviving but they keep going on! yeah. yeah. the man, he must have plenty of money to keep it, carrying it yeah. as he is doing. yeah. yeah. but er no doubt it'll all come out in fullness of time well yeah won't it? it will won't it? yeah. things can't carry on indefinitely in any business no. where nothing's being produced, can it? no. oh well he's, he's told the lads that it's only a matter of time. i think that's what more or less decided geoff that, yeah, he would take it. yeah. but erm there you go. well if he's , i mean, that's what you want innit? well yeah. somebody who can turn yo you yeah. know, do a bit of everything. well it means, you see, apparently geoff's done all the air braking at calpers it means that neil can actually some of the time, be here rather yeah. than up there all the time with them. yeah. yeah. well , cos david really doesn't know anything about the air braking or anything like that. right. mm. so very good! anyway, i'll let you get on. yeah, it's nice to see you again. and you. yes. gotta go and see the guy on the end now. oh yeah! haven't , haven't met him as yet. he's they've opened an account with us and had a few bits and baps off us, so mm. mm. yeah, cos er, i think neil was telling you that, they look as if they're gonna be buying plenty of gas off us if we, when we start taking the air products. yeah. so yeah. he's seems er, he seems okay. yeah. but that's a big company i think. right. yeah. well but i think so, it looks yeah. it doesn't it? i think we're only little one here. yeah. right. i mean , next door he's a big company based in london, so yeah. yeah. and we're struggling ! i'll see you. alright jim. see you! bye! neil, i hate to say it, but i don't think teresa'll will stick up there long. they've just asked her to do more hours, she's to stay till five at night. well well she just wants to say well it's not fair is it? you know can can she have some money? well, tracy's just said that to her. it's alright them asking you teresa, but you know, they, they should be prepared to pay you more. alright, i mean, we were just sort of thinking well sort of four o'clock wasn't she, she was starting to come out to che she came out with cheeky with us last night, but of course, that's all gonna go again innit, if it's gonna be five o'clock? what has teresa said to her? i don't like that. well she said , no she said to her, well what else can i say? but, i'll ha i'll have to do it won't i? i can see teresa going back to anna 's for season. yeah. well the horse job, that way is, is enough bloody heads. yeah. ah, you must admit though that's a bit it's a bit overboard innit? i mean yeah. hiya! i really appreciating us leaving. when did this er happen? new year's day. new year's day. nothing yes! ah! he's gorgeous! never forget my new year's eve! honestly no. what a way celebrate. i know. it's lovely! yeah? aren't you? he is! how are you keeping? alright. alright? yeah. i'm fine now. coping alright? good! yeah. yeah. well my mum's round, sort of every other day really. yeah. i have that problem! yeah. you can't keep her shut up you! away! yeah. oh he's gorgeous! yeah. he's quite well behaved. the first couple of weeks he had colic quite badly. yeah. yeah. becky did didn't she? right. for a long while. yeah. they seem to get it and then they settle down. yeah. ah! so it must be a bit of shock anyway, all these bits around. yeah. and that, you know. yeah. take a while to get it must. used to it. but he's doing quite well now. good! he's a proper little boy. yes! just lovely! what have you er called him anyway? james. james. that's nice. yeah. bye! see you later. i'm just hoping she's asleep. yep. take him home. that'll do her good to have a sleep. oh ! right! let's get all this sorted out. hello boy! i think lassie's down here for dinner. they've just asked teresa to work more hours. for more money or what? no. it's a bit off innit? mm. ta love. we've actually, it's nearly hundred and twenty pound up. we'll see. oh right, okay. cos i've the bill for the hotel it came in one lump as two hundred and four pound. right. and i got a separate receipt for andrew for his hundred and twenty so we're up wi the receipts. okay. that's all bits and pieces. right. well give me a bit more background. there's the everything. okay ! and ours are there. right. right. oh it's smashing then! it's alright? yeah that's fine. do you, do you want to keep that for or do you just want to take the pages out? er it's up to you. i will do if you want to. erm no go on, leave them in and then i'll, i suppose i can just erm well you could always tear the pages o pages out and stick them with the receipts. yeah, alright then. can do that. can't we? yeah. town hall. don't old town's hall, do you want me to keep that? er hang on to that. so there's only three hours each for er geoff and alan. right. which, works out, what? three, four and half don't it? yeah. have we got any more receipts for field and ? it's all there. all the receipts are there aren't they? no. oh hell! i left them in my bag at home, i'm sorry! it's alright ! sorry! i forgot to put them in. okay. well you've actually got it all down on there have you? yeah. that's all of them? yeah. right. okay. reckon it all up. there's a couple of quid short because bloody telephone decided to eat it! okay. and i never even got a bloody call for it! did you get to see joe and barbara? no i didn't. i was gonna ring them up last night, you know with transfers. things being the way they were. i got my connect card through this morning. oh! you've got it have you? yeah. so barclaycard's gone to the grave. i can't use it then. but i'm not tempted. lancaster and carriage and wagon! who's calling? just hold the line . neil, somebody called frank for you. very good! mm? yeah! nice! good up there! got the sack! hello! yes. we do. i see. we just buy a box at a time. yeah. hear from dixons this morning? no. he's gone, just called. we use them both. yeah. oh it's innit? yeah, whatever it is. what's that like? looks interesting anyway. i go i got a call from him you see and that's . let me just er oh right! have a look and see what i've got in stock. and i'll have to get back to you. so, dixons have, have usually got one. oh right! okay. er, well i'm, i'm just in the middle of, i'm sign writing a vehicle and i'm half way through the letters and i've got a, i've gotta finish that off before i can get into my stock. yep. er, about two o'clock? magic! cheers now. bye ! it's that masking tape bloody company again in er, newcastle oh it's not is it? wants to sell us it! what er company? oh just tell them that, you're just at the moment you don't need any. right! is that what we wa need? yeah. well let me run through it after towards, nearer the time will you? you'll have to get that made as well before you go. what's that? oh that! oh sh there's one missing. what, what's it out of? the it's the main half that comes down the socket just fits this one. the whole thing ? gotta be one that then when you've finished this off, yeah, bring it along there and i'll have a look at it. i'll have back. eh! oh! will you? coming for it at three. i'll put them in there. alright geoff. here we go! here we go! here we go! once more again, eh? well people think we've got an easy life you know. there's nothing else to do all day but swan around. who? who said that? well most people think we do. feel like cutting myself down the middle! yeah. he's coming out. yeah. hey they must have had a good meal other night. they spent eighty odd pound on a meal! i asked him did you have a sweet? he said, no, he said th that you could either have one or the other. it was a lot weren't it for they have a sweet or a starters, but they didn't have them both. there's one at sixty odd which is, i think ri quite reasonable for three but eighty odd for three of them! it must have been a right of course it was posh more expensive yeah , it must have been. as long as it were worth it! never saw, you weren't meant to, and he says, no your mum said that we could either have a sweet or a starter, not both. yeah. it sounds awfully mean don't it? i, i said to your dad i said it's mm mm you know to actually say you can't have well if they were, if they were going home they wouldn't be having a starter and a steak and a sweet and all that lot would they? no, but they are inconvenienced cos they're away from home but but i i it's just well i don't know, i feel happier now your dad's had that bit of a do with that bloke, cos i feel that we can go to him yeah. and, and wi you know, hopefully get paid, there shouldn't be any problem. cos that erm that sen, that accountant obviously isn't up to much. he promised your dad, oh it'll all be sorted within twenty four, forty eight hours and that was how many, three yeah. four days ago? i don't think he knows everything ab about that or what? erm he, he told him this morning on the phone, he's looked into it, he's the director and he apologizes. he rung to apologize this morning and said that it will be sorted and you will have your cheque. he said, i am sorry! i didn't realize things were like this. that's why you sent them the conditions! well, that's what andrew said. if, if they'd have if they'd have talked to andrew first, andrew would have told him why we'd sent it. andrew can't , he's just sort of passed that, that on. why has it gone to somebody who ? well apparently it had gone to andrew, and, andrew had cos andrew isn't in the office all the time, and he'd left it in the office, and i think they faxed it by th andrew was gonna talk to somebody about it, but of course, by the time he'd got there, it'd already been done and this had happened so i'm gonna ring erm job centre when i get home. yeah. i, they'll say, i know what they're gonna say. like, you know there's nothing they can do. that's why, she'll be better to stick it and then she was to aunty anne's. at least when she finishes at, with aunty anne, it was seasonal. she, she anne's gone aunty anne's, she won't have to go to that job . yeah. oh god ! i've i'm starting to get a bit like that. yeah. although i seem, i slept alright last night, but i think when you've got things on your mind no i didn't sleep alright, i was too warm, i tossed and turned most of night! i was really warm. did you, you watched the programme, the queen did you? yeah! weren't it good! weren't it good? i'm gonna yeah. get the video. just, it's half an hour wanted to watch that on b b c two half past eight to nine o'clock. oh i think it'd be nice to have a video, because like, when rebecca gets older erm cos i personally, my own feelings are that we might get charles as king, but after charles there won't be anything cos they'll do away with them. d'ya think? yeah. i think it will get to that. there's more and in the end. people against yeah. int she gorgeous! yeah. i'll say! it was nice to see, and it is always nice to see the, the other side of them. the natural side. yeah. she was good with the kids weren't she? yes she was. but she was, like when she, on the trailer they said about and she said and the girls as well! yeah. you know. yeah. they call her granny don't they? yeah. granny, and she calls her mum, mummy. yeah. where's becky? there's granddad. granddad. yeah,. chase, goes round all over the place don't he? your granddad. i've got some good recordings this morning! i've got jim from dixons who is like, he's lancashire but he's bolton. bolton area. and er, vic who is a londoner. have they asked about, have you er anybody asked you yet what it what it is? no, nobody's mentioned it. no. one or two people looked, i've seen them looking but they've not actually questioned. yeah. and it was, pretty horrible day yesterday! that's right. you were saying. i said that, i said the back door's for you but they're like concrete. yeah, they were very solid doors. i mean, they do actually, they're all metal. yeah. the frames and everything is,th the only bit of wood is the wood on the inside, on the panel! you see david, what he's saying to your dad this morning, let's get a meeting and go but i just feel that, i just, what's the point of going for an argument. yeah. and, and it will be, won't yeah. it? i mean, because your dad isn't gonna agree to what they're saying. no. and well, i'm sure david won't anyway. because david knows how they were built as well as your dad yeah. does. well they've spent enough hours on them int they? yeah. and, we made very little money on them. yeah. and they're saying, if they do get away with knocking this money off we won't have made anything. we won't have made anything! i mean, they got a damn good job cos that, cos what we charged them, we charged them sixteen thousand each. well you think about how they were constructed and the number of man hours! yeah. nothing really is it? no. yeah. are you coming, pop in? try and get over the bumps. as well that, i go into work and don't see teresa that often you'd think she'd have the money ready on friday morning wouldn't you? yeah. yeah, she should have it ready. there's no excuse you know. for saying i'll give it your sister. there isn't. i mean, okay, peter give us it on friday but wouldn't you have thought, i mean thirty quid yeah. she would have me got cash out or dropped yeah. it over the thursday night. there's no excuse for that, it should be there. how would it be if was anybody else anyway? you know right! would she, would she say same to them? who's that? who's that? see! it's that woman! whoops-a-daisy! ooh! who is it? hello! look granddad! where you been? hello! hello! look granddad! ha! come on! we just been er sarah's told teresa she's to work she wants her to start working till five o'clock every night, and erm she wants to work sometimes, in the summer it's gonna be six. and seven o'clock at night! for no more money? no. well , we don't know. but i well come on! i doubt it. come on! oh heck! come on darling! come on! cor! can't you smell it? aye. cat muck? cat muck! cat pee! ooh! back door's been open all this time! oh! she wants more money so she's really fed up this morning now! she didn't, i mean if they were gonna give more money she'd have said. we'll pay you x number yes. of pounds, but if they would. yeah, there's no mention of any money. oh! no! yeah, play with that. ooh! you didn't do it! eh?! where's your daddy? has he come home? has he come home yet? yeah, david, yeah. by himself? no! he brought lads home with him. did he?? no. they're back again for next few weeks. get shouted at! mum'll shout! no! becky! what does mummy say? eh? what does mummy say? you don't put a sheet, oh no! she yeah! .a pussy cat! yes! yeah! it's sooty! sooty! have a look. oh! i got my gas bill this morning. oh did you? i've got mine as well. i wouldn't be surprised quite honestly! have you estimated? na no. went to look up her reading, they said had to pay i've used three times as much gas as i did three times as much gas as i needed last time yeah. but barely done three times as much. int it? no. oh! mine's hundred and seventy two pound! ninety three mine! good grief! see it's never been off that heating. i've had it all day get it going, apart, just from a oh! i think, i think that's . he has done though. i know. dada! no i was really surprised, it was that it's that. i expected hundred and forty at least! ninety three, so that's including er ten pound standing charge, you know. yeah. so that's not so bad. said to betty i said you ought keep your bloody heating on betty! i said, look i said, your eighty three quid like that for the wha and standing charge i said, and there's yo you freezing to death with no heating on! yeah. just one, one buying those damn cylinders every week to ten days! i says, get a heating allowance. six pound a week she gets. yeah, it's ridiculous! it's nowt, but it's been cold. but i mean she wo she'd spend that in her in her cylinder gas yes! wouldn't she? i know it er ten. mm? mm? look! lovely int she? oh! oh! are you going over that firm about the money? what are you gonna do about it ? they've rung up this morning and apologized. eh? they've rung up this morning and apologized. is that in wales? oh no tha rebecca! that's royal scotsman i'm talking about. oh! the one's, but he didn't going to solicitors and oh! right. what are you shouting about? what are you shouting about? that's it. you eat too much rubbish don't you? whoops! seven mm mm! are you ri are you ringing daddy? hello! hello daddy! say hello daddy. have you had some dinner? have you? had something to eat? have you? sorry? yeah. do you want me to do anything for you? oh dear! alright? yeah! you are one little starved girl aren't you? yes! and what does solicitor say? have you, er er have you taken all your papers and your drawings and everything in? no! it's with it's got to go through, we've got to see if we can get all the fees paid yet. it's going through that system, and once they've given us the go ahead then we can go to the solicitor in lancaster. i see. and then,fee i can't see how he can, well, do you wrong when er erm fancy, and they're trying charge for a an hire of a crane? yeah. not your fault they had to hire a bloody crane ! pathetic! no it's tracy was telling david, and david said david was saying same thing, david wants to well like was saying this morning to neil, we'll have to get a meeting up a go. but, i was saying to tracy, i can't see the point of going just to have a row, because that's all it'll end up, i don't think they'll get anywhere by having a meeting, i think they'll just row. because they, probably they won't budge. you see, neil's already put his side about, we worked er how can you hold us responsible for them being late in when that's it! for a kick off anyway, you held us up for three, five months with drawings being late! three months. yeah. yeah. whatever it was. they don't really understand that! before you let us have i the drawings. and there was all that messing about there, and then we couldn't foresee the wagon having two punctures, blah, blah, blah and the rest of it! that's right. you didn't but do them. they've just co totally ignored it you see, and still put it down, so they're obviously not prepared to budge. no. well so put it into legal hands then. and did you watch video last night? no. we watched the other fi he he wasn't in till eight o'clock. oh! richard. what you got? and i'm wondering if i should ring them actually, from unit, and ask them if tell them what's happening and will she be able to go on income support if she does give it up? yeah. well, you know. will i? shall i? wait while your dad's out of room. i don't think you can do anything about me not getting an erm they should just pay me more shouldn't they, if they ask to ? well jake was saying that he actually why you're owed the forty five quid is he put us down on the wrong one with your . yeah. i do less than her, but she usually a tenner. yeah, you see, this is it isn't it? she's teaching you. it's whether you feel well i'll say to her rather than you teaching me, i'd rather you paid me! you won't will you? see, you're hopeless! yeah but it's like it gets me because like jane jane gets asked they only ask her every saturday. jane doesn't have to pay. no. jane's only paid , twenty five pound for her but she's helping yeah. int she? cos she helps out. erm yeah. that's right. but point is teresa, would you, if you went back on income support you've got that job club thing again don't you? so i can you not just stick it out till i ring brian? yeah? and then go, cos it's not far off easter is it tracy? no. april? april. so you've only got like february and march and april. yeah? yes. yeah well do that and put up with it till then, and then just see how it goes. i'm afraid that she's not gonna unless i er , i do some she int gonna get anybody to, to do for them sa number of hours and no way! people would, you know, i mean it i mean that other lass was only there six weeks, teresa's only been there a few weeks. she's got to start paying people more money. is that in, that's got ? and that will be no, it's not. you can't just use people like this though. it's not on! i know she's teaching you but how, you're certainly earning your money it's hard graft! honest! it is. right. get tupples. i don't want her to shit on your head. whoops! all these peas rolling about. whoops! and rebecca's had her trifle. have you? what? come on! hello! yeah. here we go. mind you head on the desks. she banged it this morning, didn't half cry! come on then. mm. mind her head. yeah. go and get a plate for your dad. you see they've accepted our terms in one way because of the stage payments . erm no. mm. oh! leave the fish and chips in there. he's even got fish and chips for steven. yeah. so are, these mine? yeah. is there any plates? no, in the kitchen. that's it, yeah. there isn't. above, above perhaps. yep. right. well well i shall be up er, with, i'm , i'm not sending these lads up on monday. did tony all of this what he said about that er , yeah. er, we're coming up it's true. all on tuesday, because i'm to stand victory on tuesday er and it gives us chance then to get some more er er erm, reproaching done on the equipment no mummy. that's down today. don't want it. er, so the right. van'll be coming back loaded. erm and then we're just waiting with western house, i'm going to give them a buzz about one o'clock and ask them what the hell they're playing at! because we've got cylinders here erm waiting for more er equipment to come. so er we've got a lot to do, to come back, we've got a van load to come back. and, but er, we wanna wait! fetch all the tools up and everything go get your dad one. for victory, because i'd like to get stuck into that and out of the way before i come up next friday. is the train acceptable to sleep on? what she's gonna do? take your chips off here or yeah. i'll fetch you a new, other violin string i think. tell him frank, frank's er doing what he did, will he get it himself? yeah. shall we get a bottle of yeah. booze for your daddy? okay. you can put her oh right! some on a piece of paper . okay . oh she's oh! what has that got to do with the paint drying? if you work hard enough? yeah. okay. cheers! yeah. bye ! who's on about meeting us? oh! mm. different! what do you want? sugar? sugar? oh sugar! it's white, and oh sugar! i forgot it. no we haven't got any. oh! just . too late! i've put coffee in your cup. he'll have it without. he'll have it, he'll have a cup of tea. yeah. ca erm can you manage without until i get some? yeah. gonna have to! i'll have to go up top, oh or pre maybe your dad would nip up to shop or something. well your uncle's gonna have his yeah. out there? no, he's not. he's in here. mm. he's got, he's got his shoes off. what you doing child? oh! angela, i've rung angela this morning cos geoff says will i ring her and sort it out and she just said just alter it. tried she said just alter it on p forty five? but it still don't work out. still works out i don't know what's wrong. so i'm gonna have to go and see pat see what i'm doing wrong. oh! oh! oh! what did andrew say neil? he rung up to apologize that er that, i'd got that fax. because he was annoyed and he told me blank that they should have discussed the situation first hello! before sending the fax off. because he knew what i'd sent the fax for er, he knew what i'd sent that for. and er he didn't blame me one bit of doing that because we'd been getting the run around. erm and he's got a meeting with him again this afternoon. he's gone out for lunch this er yeah. michael . but he's also contractors waiting to start jobs and they won't start without revenue up front. no. so it's not only us that's being like this no. really, it's there's a bun there dad. yeah. yeah. so steve and nigel haven't turned up yet? i don't know. i thought they were working on train? they weren't there yesterday. oh! no. where's peter? have they been there all week? yeah, no they haven't been here at all. oh! he asked them to come up today or tomorrow to start work on the er pipe work again. well the the four that'll be ready. and the, some of the other bedrooms in the other coaches'll be ready so he can, there's no problem. good! wha what did you say about the er hotel? don't know. did they not bother? erm what about r f s? don't like r f s. they said well that's a load of rubbish! it's a wind up innit? they said the only thing we've been talking about at r f s is his er wheel effects. and he said, i told them point blank the oth last week, he said er to go to hell! and you have! well it goes into there! i'm going, taking it with me! oh i'm sorry! oh i didn't know that. so er they told mi told michael in the car the car this morning, point blank that we've been getting run around! we're still getting cos michael started it, he said we're never said anything when we set off in the car, and then he said that he'd had this fax from me and er andrew said, well it wasn't actually from, er, from me to the, it was fetched up to me and i sent it in the office. and er give us a kiss? he said well i'll fax it back cos the agreement er, blah blah! i didn't, didn't like daddy. what they'd put. so, he said, well if you'd have er spoken to me first if you speak to him he said i'd have told you, point blank, what he sent it for. where's my crisps you little thief! yeah. well at least it's been she's got my crisps . sorted ain't it? oh has she ? yeah. and, you know, i feel better about it now. you know, it made me feel a bit sick last night. sarah's told teresa, six to seven o'clock it's gonna be in summer. well only thing teresa's got to say to her no, she's said, she, she ain't got the courage to ask her for more money, so i said well just give it a few more weeks and then anne and brian's turn up, if it don't get any better then, i'm afraid you got anne and brian's. it's simple as that innit? yeah, it won't be first she's had you know, er eight o'clock till four o'clock and then if you want to, work, work any more hours erm they're supposed to pay you more money. then they'll have to pay you a bit more money,yo you know, to come back like that and say well yeah i don't she's go mind doing that, but she's gonna need her at weekends as well, in the summer, because she'll be away eventing. the only thing you can say, you know, do you mind if i ask you,sh it's bugging me by working these long hours will i be getting any more money? cos she can't really do anything if she says no. you know, i mean, she says oh you've gotta finish, er at least she comes out and get your . yeah. teresa says, well saying that funny mood just ask her . she's in again. sarah, can i have a word? just say, you know it's just bothering me a bit about these long hours, do i get any that's right. more money for it? that's all you need to say, and if she says no, then you know how to . this morning. eh? she had to come with me and fell asleep this morning. did she? where did you go? just out to whitewall stop it! sorry! i won't do it! screaming! she's a bit mucky, she fell over twice. well she's did he? that's cos joe brought her down here to er yeah. little boy. brought her into here, or into shop? oh i dunno. you've just said you wanted to come to me. he was just coming out. go in the other day. rebecca! find the scissors. yeah. ah! and el you're a bit cheesed off are you teresa? yeah. well erm last it annoys me though because cos she said erm ricoh, when ricoh worked in there they give her twenty five pound and looked after her horse as well, so well, we're not taking cheeky down there. and you, you gave her a hundred no, i know that! quid. no i'm not. no but she was obviously better off weren't she? but better, she yeah, cos yeah. she was on better money there. you know. yeah i think it's bad. i don't like my lessons, i'd rather have the money, if that's what she's saying well like. just say to her mm. just nicely, just say you know, it's just bugging me like, these extra hours because i've got my own yeah. horse to look after and i'm, you know is there any more money ? i really don't mind go down the extra hours child! in the summer. come and here! oh she says erm it's just getting a bit too much now because i'm gonna start go to daddy. and teaching people and i to daddy. want you to work later. well, just say to her, you know, working later, is there any more money in it? mm. it's not that's the only thing you need to say. it's e it's not that she could be offenced at that about that it's extra responsibility and everything! if she's gonna go off and just leave you it's, it's all extra responsibility int it? well naturally i mean, yeah. i jake's as jake was saying about to say ask jake for you want more money and all if you're doing extra hours. yes, he says er i'd get more money alright. mm. he says that, that well i reckoned up this morning we reckoned it'll perhaps be at fifty two, but we were wrong weren't we? it's actually forty is it forty nine and a half hours it'll be? i was only working forty hours at post house! on the but she said erm that she were going away and i could work, cos the lessons finish on a sa start up there on a thursday, she said, if i work thursday, friday, saturday, sunday and i could have monday, tuesday, wednesday thursday off. oh! mhm. well that's fair enough. ah! but i'd rather have the sunday off, cos of cheeky. yeah. if she wants me to work. yeah. yo she likes to give your dad hand, that's what she's thinking, and on sunday it's hard. unless they're gonna get mucked out on sunday, have to buy a couple of bags of sawdust. i'll ask him though. how many nesquick things do we need? about a dozen. cos that's the only one in here. that'll go back in. yeah. there's some missing. int it cute? cumbria power tools, is it brett? i don't know what i don't know where little, little one's come out okay. of. eh? so i'm not sure where the smaller one's come out of. well we don't want to buy any more unless we know where they come out of. well d'ya also, we ordered the armature, it came through a couple of days ago, we put it, but it's going the opposite direction. it actually er one lo a fa going into in detail, there's one load of armature's the wrong way. turn it over. eh? turn it over. we co we've tried to pull , but if you pull all the , swap the the leads round or shove the brush leads round which is the obvious thing to do in that case, you know, er in that no they're successfully sparking excessively. so, we're gonna have to obviously send the armature back for at er and they can also switch one. no, i would recognize the you know . there's a colour code on them. what three more? no, it won't be that long. well see, if you're desperate for a machine i'll lend you one something to do doodles on. give it oh right! back to annette. i like doodling! also did you leave any special ? got it straight away because are better off! no they don't. no they don't. you have got a rotten abscess have you brett! yes. it's unbelievable i tell you! this is quite painful really yeah. there's nothing worse! if you're not careful you'll have another one other side! leave him alone! ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh! i went to bed last night with night nurse leave him alone! she was no good, but i went to bed with her! er, what else have i got there? if you're into football, don't know if you are? no. no, not into football? no. no , not really. free videos! any of the machines shown in there top terms apply less, less thirty percent and the choice of any video shown on there. also, one thing i'll tr if you see that jacket in there, the only way you'll get that jacket normally if you bought a lamborghini! i've been told the pra price of the jacket is the amount of the price of a set of wheels for the lamborghini! yeah? which is a pity to be giving away. send it off in any case. supposed to pu supposed put two, obviously sealer off the machine but er,things. yeah, well you also if you're into music another offer with them, the c ds. how do we get round it? what are you doing down there? miss saigon, if you're into opera whatever it is! oh definitely! what are you doing down there? you're crackers! any machine purchases on there you get a free c d disc of your own choice, volume, three or four. what? there was one and two, that's an old offer. oh! take care. and tickets for miss saigon. oh right. hiya ! she wants her coat off mum, that's what she's peek a boo! we like my jacket? david'll like that jacket. why, what's it got on it? lamborghini. i'll have it. i'll send off for it. it is nice. saw a brand new ferrari testarossa yesterday! a testarossa, did you? aye. it's a bit like that tape, what was that tape called, that was called testarossa something. is that something with pasta is it? aye. oh! about hundred and seventy five thousand pounds worth of pasta! rebecca! keep her there for a minute. they de they don't . they certainly do. on things. they don't! yes they do! why don't they list them then? well they do! oh i'll get you catalogue. oh don't argue! don't list them here. he's not in the mood this poor lad! leave him alone! he's in agony! you can see that! yeah, stop picking on him! he wants to sell something. he'll have to take that no well you can't buy anything so hard luck! yeah. hello! hiya! oh god! hello. what's he doing ? got a curtain ring on your hand? nice jacket int it this one? yeah it's nice! mm mm. hiya! that's probably suede watch her now. across the back or mm. something. like that . i want to have a look at jacket . sixty? and the rest! stay down. i don't suppose go on. that bench er, mender's come down there yet? oh! look at your hands now! pipe mender. pipe bender. i've yeah. got a reasonable quotation. a load of verbal abuse and the o other things you normally get! you nearly had one of in tears, you know, the other day when you're off. who was it was that? oh! you know sales office yes. some neil's,tha neil is that way, i've only got to know how to work neil! why? honestly! why? what happened? tell me! you know, he's giving,gip about this girl or something he said and ye you took offence! he thought neil was serious! he probably was, you know, to, to him like. i bloody well was! there was no doubt about that! i mean that is the top of the range professional, it'll cost you more like, but i mean it'll last you a lifetime if you don't use it that is. no. d'ya know sorry! they everything'll last a lifetime according to you if we don't fucking use it! yes, when we start to use it, it falls to bloody pieces! th there's a ri there's a word going around about you! yeah! don't listen to what yeah! anybody says! and none of it's true! that's what i mean. it's all the same. but it surprised you know what? why, who says that? you shouldn't do that though it just . well but brett and the brett he'll, he'll like that! rebecca! if your company wants to supply aha! stuff, they're bound here we go! to get the granddad. flack if it goes wrong! she's showing you her teddy. well of course you do, yeah. he gets it before he even ah ah ! blooming sells it! don't you love? yeah! you get told it's no good before he's dad,, take notice of her ! even bought it! for goodness sake! obviously doesn't . he's more interested in giving beth a lecture! who's got room in their rubbish bin for one trifle pot? that's a job to do today, bogs, bins. bogs and bins? mm. ooh! how nice! ah! there it is. multi-purpose nine zero all the bs. three zero is that down? hundred and sixty two pound less your discount no you can't have it! thirty percent. no. you can't have it. if you buy two this year you'll be . yeah. i ke keep away from that . and we've got to get the pipe bender haven't we? what about the, what's that come on then! in stock? i think we've bought it. ready? oh oh! oh oh ! one thing, you're talking about selling, just disappointed with your er here are. other division with the bloody starret cutter they sent us! they sent us a bloody cutter rebecca! it was an american yeah. first bloody cut, it slides the frigging teeth off it! and we thought it was the way that we tret it! er we got the coolant and everything off it yeah. and it wasn't it was the . they said no problems. well what happens when you want to re-sell, was it a ? yeah. yeah, well it was. pass. yeah. mum. er it just it just disintegrated. well in english market and it goes they got american, there's three different types of cu er, cutters er, there's spinical ta! there's netrasess and there's . hooray! well we told them when we rung them up we haven't got a thing, we're gonna nip up to quote a plate with it just as we're going into kick it rebecca. a meeting we set kick it! our magnetic, that we got up here hooray! and put it on it, and it just scratched the surface, and that kick it! was it, bang! kick it! yeah? it just poked it off the end. and we thought well hooray! shall we take it back and complain? i rung them hooray! up and said have you got another blades,th the blades have gone? sa said, oh well you shouldn't have done that! and er he said, no, we haven't got another one, be throw it to david. three or four days, and we rung steve up, he said yeah! kick it! i'll get you one. hooray! and it was here in the post! yeah? and we put the starret which is the yellow one yeah? ya. and it went whoomph! straight through it li like it was cutting bloody butter! yeah. so we thought, well that's er er we won't well send it back to us as a, as a genuine complaint. well have you got it with you, have you or have you thrown it away? it's this, it, it come in this box. well, bring it back i'll try, try and get it changed for you. oh! no. this pipe bender then? yeah? i'd like ready? to place an order for one. cos we're gonna need it. that's very kind of you! get wheels in motion. could have you one for monday, if you order it today. towards the end of next week'll be better. say rebecca! cos we can't, if we're away on monday we shan't be back before friday and that'll mean kicking them out. well i might as well, i mean if you want to let me order it now just get this out the way and then you can have more alright. time then? . well you know the one we want don't you? yeah. plus the twenty eight mil, four lots erm, twenty eight mil . er, four . four . what about the er eh! there you go daddy! there's one thing, or was it er mm, daddy won't play. sorry? miles away! what's that for? no, it's gonna be top . no. it's support, it's er er there's a four , there something, haven't we got tha that doesn't fit. er god ! i don't know what it is. oh! you missed! oh! oh! oh! hooray! is it, some int it? is that the ? no, this is it. er right, you want a number right, that there. so, bench bender two two four. yeah. no , we're not bench, bending benches, we're bending two, two, four. right. then flick over to there. and we want mind your head! twenty eight mil? ooh dee dee dee doo doo ! quick! tell her to put that football down. that's it. that's three k quick! that's three k two eight one two. two eight one two. that's cos there's a former. yeah. quick! kick it! hooray! hooray! hooray! ooh ooh ooh! e g three a g three a two eight one two. two eight one two. right! i'll get wheels in motion come on then! on that. so it's to hit that light with. so what it's, how much will that be? ah ah! er, whatever price is on there less your discount terms of twenty percent. kick it! hooray! i thought i was giving you more than that, ee, first of all i went to fifteen percent, you said two, three, three. yo seventeen off, i said, and the order's mine, then i went in at twenty percent. we you know, i could have got away with giving you seventeen and half percent! you'd have got some stick! i know. because we'd have got from spiro's hey! nothing at spiro fifty two tell you what, we are you don't do bad for tools that we buy off them. yeah, well did i leave you one of them catalogues with all the good tools ? yeah you did actually. yeah. has, that been binned as well? yeah. no, it'll be under, er, they're all, all those things are under there in pending. have a look at them . thing is, a lot, lot of them two hundred and ninety two less twenty percent. . less twenty percent. no, thirty percent off that one. i'm not interested what little bit of twenty percent's going to that! two what? two ninety three three. er, whee! ah! oh! be about fifty quid. oh! oh! no, sixty . that's not really bad is it? what's that? what he come up with. well we could of bought that one really last time could we? what, er that one? what do you yep. want? she wants to pass it. two hundred and ninety two pound less mm. twenty percent. well if this one's daddy! ri working right, it'll be two hundred and thirty three. yeah that sounds right. yeah, that'll be, er something like that. don't spill your coffee. be about fifty two hundred and what? eight pound. thirty three. two hundred and what? thir thirty three eighty six. brains of britain is there before you! seven plus v a t. yeah. that's it. v a t's not added. she'll probably back up and it's same figure again. say it at same price again, yeah. mind you, it's well that's what i said about bloody v a t for! stupid v a t! innit daft? yeah. how about these er sanders? ah! we're gonna stick hold of them for a minute or two because we haven't right. got that job to do yet. that's fair enough then. i'll fill that in as well, northern hydraulics because i'm paying er hydraulics prices for er seals when we can get them half the price off them. yeah. the erm belts for these sanders yeah. it's far cheaper to get a a san sanding belt and cut it down, you'll probably get about five belts out of one sanding belt. mhm. oh right! don't go can you cut the or anything? you can rip them. ah right! they're like a fibre, they're er er and how do you glue them together? you don't. the end aren't they? on your your multi-purpose sander if you go for black pack of three, i think they're about three ninety odd, that's what they were se selling them to the er is it three market street? er er that's er ,about one fifty for one as long you get the right size and then just, just tear to whatever thing. you're supposed get them with a ruler and jus just pull them. cos they're, they're like a cloth cloth belt. that's a good idea! i'll, we'll do that then when we're ready. we're just trying to save you money you see! yeah. yeah ! we need erm er eventually get the er the roller. have you? you got invoiced for it as well. i apologize for that. are they , that's your mum, not the bikes! oh hell! it's right, i'll go and do some more. we, have we got an in have we got an see you ! invoice? but he what for? but he's just said we got invoiced for it. have we got a credit to come? oh yeah! we'll credit it you. have we? i think we have to look at the climate we're in; we're, at the moment the aids epidemic is facing all of us, it's a problem for each and any, every one of us. and, and in a sense, not to be explicit, would, would have been not so much a crime, but would have been an error i think. i think when you're dealing with something that is transmitted sexually you have to be very very clear about how it's transmitted, i think you, you can't be vague about these sexual terms, you have, for, for medical reasons there's nothing else; you have to be exactly er clear about what you mean, by, by the activities you're describing. it's er also fairly erotic isn't it? well, obviously none of us would want to separate sex from erotica, and so er, and i think we, what we'd like, what we wanted the leaflet to do was put, put sort of sex for, for young people er and students in particular in this case into a framework that allowed loving and resp, response of attitudes and, and eroticism, yes, and so i think what the leaflet does is, is let people take care of themselves sexually and let them take responsibility for their sexual acts. some of the ways you've, you've laid out things like for example, putting in brackets, in, that it includes not sharing equipment if you inject, the, that is , that er could be seen as condoning people taking drugs. i don't think it's condoning, i just think it's given the safe, giving out the safest options for people who maybe taking drugs and, and and maybe in, in maybe er sometimes thinking about injecting drugs, and er i think we actually have to be very clear on this epidemic, that, that there is no, no way for, for lack of clarity, we have to go down the line. and, and i think all the time what the leaflet does is give options, it's never directoral and never goes, never sort of overstates, it's just giving a range of options. it never says this is the right behaviour or this is the wrong behaviour, it just says the safest behaviour and, and then leaves, leaves the recipient to do the rest. now you say it's aimed at students, er how, how is it being er given out? i think that's very important, it is specifically aimed at students, i mean i, this, this is no way a leaflet for the general public and, and one of the reasons is the explicitness because it's aimed at students and that we did a lot of research with students, students were involved in the writing. we piloted to over two hundred students er so i mean, i, i think erm that, that's very important to stress, also that we are distributing through student links, so it's going through, through both the, the student unions in oxford, through, through the poly union, through sort of, through informal links there and then through the welfare offices in each college at the university. you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty seven minutes past six. two oxfam workers have been giving a first hand account of conditions in cambodia, where they claim millions of lives are at risk. over a hundred thousand people have fled their homes as a result of increasing khmer rouge activity; it's feared this could soon escalate into civil war. oxfam has been trying to help the refugees er in the area, but tony jackson just back from cambodia says it's becoming harder for many to survive. people are extremely tense because it's now a year since the vietnamese left, and the whole country's on a war footing. everywhere we went, and we travelled — oh, hundreds of miles up north, er people were armed and er just guarding houses, bridges, schools, at night, on their own as a sort of people's militia to keep the khmer rouge at bay. er. you mentioned already er over a hundred thousand people have been er displaced by the fighting, and we were able to visit some of these up in the north to, er watch the cambodian red cross hand out some er aid from oxfam and other agencies. and these people are in fairly er desperate conditions but at least getting some help, but i think the main point is there is a civil war on, and the west is still standing on the sidelines watching it happen. a major problem the country has right now is an economic one; the soviet union is pulling out a lot of its aid programmes and has obviously bankrolled the country since nineteen seventy nine, so there's a tremendous economic problem added to the er battles of the khmer rouge are causing the government to fight. the government's actually running out of money, it's bankrupt. you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty nine minutes past six. still a fair bit of repair work going on along the m forty, between junctions one and one a, that's the stretch between denham and the m twenty-five, the outside lane is closed in both directions. and between junctions five and seven, that's down to single line traffic, that's the stretch between stokenchurch and thame, for repair work also. a forty one, that's the road between banbury and bicester, there are temporary traffic lights just between sodone turn off, that's just by the bear public house and the northants border; there are some long delays likely along that stretch. and on the a three six one, wardington, that's just north of banbury, there are also temporary traffic lights. and it's the abingdon street fair today and tomorrow, and high street and ock street are closed, and traffic's being diverted because of this. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. but it's not a bad evening if you're on the trains or the buses, i've no trouble to tell you about at all. it's six thirty one. the multi-national task force in the gulf has diverted an iraqi ship to a port on the ammani coast for breaking sanctions. royal marines intercepted the vessel which was found to be carrying cargo which is banned under the united nations measures. two air crashes have killed twenty american servicemen in the gulf, two air force pilots died when a pair of phantom jets collided, the wreckage of two helicopters has been found. shares have hit their highest levels in two months on the first trading day since britain joined the european exchange mechanism. the stock exchange one hundred index closed up fifty seven at just over two two o o. and the lockerbie enquiry has heard how seventeen of the two hundred and seventy victims on board have never been found. former dumfries police chief, john boyd, was describing how he implemented britain's biggest ever emergency operation. the weather for the fox f m area: this evening's going to be dry with clear spells, temperatures are going to fall quickly at first to around four degrees celsius, thirty nine degrees fahrenheit by midnight, however, the light westerly breezes will pick up to moderate later with temperatures rising, so a frost isn't expected tonight. still to come: a full round up of the day's news from the city, and we preview the first of the season's major snooker tournaments. first though, help the aged and the influenza monitoring bureau have joined forces to encourage all people over the age of sixty five and those in high risk groups to get a flu jab. twenty six thousand people died from flu last year; as well as the elderly, others with diseases like diabetes or those with breathing problems are also at risk. doctor sandy mcnair from the bureau, says all people at risk should be vaccinated. wendy wakefield from help the aged says they were surprised by the results of a morri survey which questioned seven hundred people over the age of sixty five about what they knew about flu. we were am, absolutely amazed at the low awareness that flu is actually preventable. i think only twenty four per cent thought that, that flu was preventable, so er there's a lot of work to be done to get the message across. older people we know want to be offered more ways of preventing illness, so you know, they have to really be informed, er we want them to know about it so then they can make the choice as to whether they take it up with their g p. so what sort of things does your er leaflet tell them about it? well it really explains what flu is; there's an awful lot of confusion between flu and the common cold. so it really explains what flu is and how to recognise those symptoms; it outlines who is at special risk from flu, the sort of people with a special medical con, conditions and what those are, and also what to do if you think you have flu. one very important thing for older people living alone is to let friends and neighbours know that they are ill, so that they can keep an eye on them and obviously you know, do the shopping and bring in any, anything that they might need. er. and also to call the g p if the symptoms persist, or if they feel seriously ill. er how many people do actually take up the offer and, and have flu vaccines nowadays? well that morri poll suggested that er of the risk groups that wendy's outlining, only seventeen per cent were actually vaccinated. and it's quite clear that that very high death toll from flu last winter was not because the vaccine wasn't working, but because the vaccine wasn't getting into the people who needed it. how effective is the vaccine itself? it, it's fairly effective; seventy per cent of people exposed to the virus who have been vaccinated, get no attack at all, and thirty per cent get a much milder attack than, than they would have expected. so even if, if they do go down with flu once they've had the vaccination, it's less, it's likely to be less serious? well that's the point, i mean, it, the, the elderly who, who die from the flu die because their immune system isn't capable of, of preventing spread of the virus within the body. er. we don't really mind if people get an attack of flu, so long as it doesn't kill them, er if you recover then fine, but, and that's really what the vaccine does, so it's, it's, it's particularly good at actually stopping people dying from, from flu. er i've read in the past that, that there are so many different strains of the, of flu that, that its, vaccine, the vaccine that is produced each year doesn't necessarily tackle that strain of flu. yes, erm there are not, not more than three strains er most winters circulating. the flu virus varies in its structure and it varies in its ability, in the type of antibodies it produces in people. it's an, a small number of, of viruses which constantly shift, and the who organisation which monitors flu viruses around the world, is responsible for seeing that the vaccine is made from strains that are in circulation currently, and, and we've been getting it right for the last ten years, so i, i think there'll be no problem this year. you're listening to the fox report. the oxford regional health authority is admitting it may have been over optimistic when it estimated income from the sale of land. the authority meets on friday to reconsider its building programme which will now have to be slowed down, owing to the collapse of the property market. whereas land sales were expected to bring in seventy eight million pounds in the four years of nineteen eighty nine to nineteen ninety, and nineteen ninety two to ninety three, it now seems the figure will only be about thirty six million, less than half that original estimate. bob nichols, the regional general manager, says their expectations may have been too high, and they could have noticed signs of the market's collapse earlier. we were perhaps over optimistic, as i think a lot of other people relying on, er land sales were. if we'd seen it coming sooner then er we would perhaps not have got started on all the many schemes are actually on site. our big problem is that we have over thirty million pounds' worth of schemes actually in building at the moment, and of course you can't stop those without wasting a, an enormous amount of money, so we're carrying on with those. and they include the maternity unit at stoke er mandeville, and the milton keynes, the second phase of milton keynes, and these are really big developments that we're funding out of our previous excellent land sales. so we were caught like a lot of other people in not predicting just how fast and how far the land sales er prices would actually go down. do you resent having been put into the position where you had rely, had to rely on land sales? no, i think it's er fair that the government er must make the most of its assets. i think we all feel we would like more central capital funding, but without it, it's quite proper that we make er the best of use of the, of the assets we've got, and we weren't using all our estate as effectively as we might, so for the last few years, we've had a very vigorous programme of identifying land and buildings that are no longer required, and putting them on the market and thereby enabling us to build new facilities. i think it's quite, quite right we should be asked to do that, it's just unfortunate that we perhaps got over optimistic when the land sales were boom, were booming. are you now confident about placing your faith in the adjustments that are happening with the economy? yes, i would hope that er this is a mark time; it gives us a time to re-examine some of the schemes to see whether they are as financially viable as they looked er when perhaps times were better, and we would be hoping very much that er the economy will pick up and with it, land sales. i think it should in the south of england er next year or the year after, and we'll have a number of schemes ready to go if that, that comes about. you're listening to the fox report. the john watson school at wheatley is facing a parking fine because its variety club minibus is too big to fit into a parking space. the ticket was issued at the car park adjacent to the oxford city ice rink, where the school goes on a regular basis. the school's head teacher, diane wilson says although they could have parked on the double yellow lines outside the ice rink, it would have been unfair to other vehicles as well as dangerous for the children. we do try not to use er the disabled sticker if it's at all possible, because we actually want to behave just as anyone else behaves, in a, just an ordinary member of the community, and so do the children. we actually, people stare at our kids enough, we actually want to keep it as low key as possible, and behave in a proper way. so in fact, we could have caused chaos on oxpens road by parking the bus on double yellow lines and making a big thing of getting handicapped children out, in and out of a specialised vehicle, but we, we actually prefer not to do that, and we go on the car park each week, and we pay the same fee as anybody else fee, pays because er we feel that that's the right and proper place for us to be and the children to be, as they're just ordinary members of the community with some special needs. will you continue to use the car park? yes, in fact we shall be going again this week, and i have no doubt, once again this week, we, we'll be overlapping into another bay, but er unless we use the coach car park, er which means that we couldn't take children who weren't really able walkers, so in fact we would be discriminating against our own children, er i really can't see what else we can do. you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty to seven. still to come: on the piste at the oxford apollo, and firemen from didcot look forward to tackling the ridgeway on two wheels. financial report with halpern and woolf; keeping oxfordshire in business. as expected, the city continued to celebrate friday's joining of the e m s and fourteen per cent base rates. in early trading, the footsie one hundred gained a massive a hundred and fifty points before being cut back by early profit taking, and renewed uncertainty from the gulf. however, the volume of shares traded was in excess of one billion; the chancellor's announcement being the panacea the city was looking for. a strong start on wall street helped shares to rally, and by the close, the footsie one hundred was up fifty seven point seven at two two o one point six. on the foreign exchanges, sterling continued to make grounds against other currencies, especially the weaker dollar; the pound ended the day up one point four cents at one dollar point nine six nine five, and up half a pfennig at er three deutschmarks point o two four one, comfortably below the upper limit allowed by the e m s. today's shares: abbey national up sixteen to two hundred and thirty, british aerospace down eighteen at five five nine, british airways down nought point five at one four four, british gas up six at two three two, british telecom went up seventeen to two nine o point five, goodhead publishing group were up two to sixty, metalbox went down twenty five to one one two five, morland brewers went down five to two hundred and seventy, and oxford instruments were up, they were up five to two five seven, thames water were up eleven at two hundred and thirty four, the trustee savings bank was up six at a hundred and thirty eight, and today's major movers, reuters, down seventy to seven o three, bass up seventy seven to one o five o. oxford united's manager, brian horton, watched his side put on another disappointing display in their three nil defeat at barnsley. also at the game was mickey ianotta, who told brian yet again, basic errors cost united dear. that's all you can put it down to mick, i, i've put, i've put their first two goals on in training this morning, and said ‘go on, score from two throw ins’, and it's impossible, it is impossible. if, if our mid-field players and our back four players, whoever you like to, if our front players have to come back in and get involved, if that's what they have to do, and everybody get behind the ball, that's what you have to do. and to score two goals, or concede two goals from, from throw ins, is an absolute lib, liability. i'm not, i'm not just blaming them all the time, i mean, the situation is, when they go out on the field, they are their own men, i can't do anything about there, i can't talk for them out there; i can only put it on in training, and when they get out there, they've got to do it theirselves. that's not just one player, one player cannot do all the talking, it's got to be just ten, eleven, seven; seven make other four do, do what they want to do, and we don't concede goals like that. what can you say after the game? gone on record as saying ‘if performances like this isn't going to do you any good, you haven't lost one match this season through the merit of the opposing side’ no, i, i'll, i'll agree with that, and i think the players will agree with that, it's not as though, it looks as though we've got absolutely murdered again saturday mick, three nothing, as i said, it stops at me, and if they're not going to do what i want them to do, then i'll leave them out the team. can see them all driving off now mick. they've had a practice match this morning, and every striker in the club is going to do some finishing this afternoon. every striker we've got in the club is going and doing some finishing now; you can hear them going. oh well mickey, not a very happy man. no he isn't jane, but you can't really blame him, i've gone on record, er it's a case of repeating yourself, it's not his fault; the players when they're out there on the pitch, they can't do it. at the start of the season, the defensive system was a sweeper one, it worked superbly, we were winning though, but it, it's the, it's the reincarnation of the battle of culloden as far as i'm concerned; bonnie prince charlie just trying to swamp the duke of cumberland. it won't work when you go one nil up, or you're one nil down, you have to hold something in reserve; mid-field players have to come back, the forwards have to come back and hold tight, you don't just go charging up looking to get another goal, or trying to equalize, but that's the basic error. they need to find something in mid-field that can stabilize their performance; the balance. well what do you reckon that is? if you were brian horton, what would you be doing, what would you be saying to them? well, i wouldn't be smiling, in fact he isn't. basically what i, i think the best thing that's happened to oxford united this season, well there are two; the signing of andy melville at the back and jim magilton, a very young man, but he's got the balance, he can add the poise, and i feel he's going to help oxford. and mark my words, oxford united will be at the top half of the, of the division by christmas, i promise you, once they get it sorted out, there's not one side in the second division who are better than oxford. they've lost matches, oxford, take west ham; there's nothing between them, we lost two nil there, west ham scored seven on saturday. west ham take their chances, oxford don't, that's why they're at the bottom and teams like sheffield and west ham and oldham are at the top. so by christmas mickey, we'll hold you to that one. now changing a little bit, the spire oxford city stars er lost their unbeaten run er this season, they lost at chelmsford at the weekend. have you been impressed with them so far? they haven't actually played the teams of the higher class yet, let's point that out. they lost their right, last eight last season; so far this seas, season, they've looked good, they've got some new americans there, scott golf , he's playing well, the two minders,mettassler and stewart thomas, they've been superb, and dan prater, sharp shooter, oh, he could hit a ball from anywhere into that net. but at the moment, they lost their first one admittedly, against chelmsford, they're second in the autumn cup, but they need this little run in, they need to find that confidence, and maybe losing that one match may add that little something next week, because they face the harringay racers who they drew with earlier on, and the sheffield sabres. there's some marvellous names in ice hockey, but er i fancy the, the spire oxford city stars to do pretty well this season, but it all begins in november in the league. right, well it's the first of the big snooker tournaments starting tonight; are you a snooker fan? i don't know much about snooker, i must be honest, the last time i played, i kissed off the pink and owed stewart cameron a fiver, and that's basically all i know about it. all i know is that cliff thorburn is pretty boring to watch, so's steve davis, but they generally win the tournaments. mmm, well i, that's probably why you let me talk to david vine,, and the he's good on showjumping, i, i love him on showjumping. he's pretty good on snooker as well, the, the rothmans grand prix , which er is held at the hexagon in reading, starts tonight, goes on the october the twenty first, and i asked david vine, who's name has become synonymous with snooker, who he thought was going to win. one of about twenty eight players will win it, because, i'm serious now, because the standard has got so high from new players coming through, you've got a whole lot of new players. if you went on the form book, the final should be between steve davis, who's got married, and steven hendry, who's got very rich, and i wouldn't like to pick either of those. are you, are you suggesting that, that either of those might have de-motivated either of those players? er, always possible. dave, steve davis has had a terrible you know, preliminary start to the season, this is the start of the official season, but he hasn't been playing very well at the moment. er. that's typical of davis; saves himself for the big occasion, the great professional, mr super-professional, and not mr boring by the way either, a great player. er. hendry is on the crest of a wave, very conscious of the fact that he's the champion of the world, and wants to hang on to that rating of the number one player in the world. but it's very possible that neither of those will make the final at all. well, when you've got all the big names, and the dennis taylors, the jimmy whites, both who've won it before, jimmy hasn't been playing too well recently, but you've got a whole clutch of players who could well come through and surprise everybody. i mean, there's a lot of pressure on somebody like steven hendry because he's, he's hardly any age at all even now, is he? no, a mere little child, but pressure, yes i mean you've hit exactly the right word, which makes the game and the big occasions very different. there are a whole lot of players who can go out there and knock balls in all over the place, score wonderful great big one four sevens and centuries and things of this nature, but what makes the, the good player an excellent player, is the player who can do it on the big occasion. under the television lights does make a lot of difference, but when he knows it's a big occasion, he can produce the goods when it matters, and there aren't too many of those. you, you see a lot more snooker probably than anybody else, do you ever get bored with it? no, i don't get bored at all with it, er because snooker is not er like american pool, where you go out there with a stick and just knock balls all over the table; snooker is snooker, and the name of snooker is to play this, you know, this game of chess on the green baize, and er that's what, you see this is where davis has been so good for so long, a) he's a supreme professional, he once apologised for only practising for two hours on christmas day rather than four, er and if you look at davis' score sheets and his matches, which i've done over the years, you'll see a lot of breaks of around sort of fifty five, sixty, sixty five, and then he stops, he plays the safety shot and says to his opponent ‘okay, your turn’, plays the percentage game, the occasional knock in the very big ones, but that's why he's won so much, because he thinks it out so well, and knows the averages, knows the percentages and plays the game that way. you get another player like jimmy white, wonderful player to watch, i mean, you know, flashes the ball all over the place, knocks it in, wonderful player, er and has won a lot of championships, but jimmy's a totally different character, doesn't practice anywhere near as much as steve davis. i mean, there is no such thing as, the day starts for jimmy white around nine o'clock at night, and if jimmy's drawn the afternoons, he should be asleep, he's that sort of character. so that's why the snooker i think is, is so appealing, why it's still there, has the big audience , because nearly every one who plays is different, they're characters, and you've got that one versus another, a versus b, er just to watch, you take sides, and the lovely ladies say ‘i like that terry griffiths, but i don't like that other one , it's got the fascination. traffic on the m twenty five is heavy and slow moving between junctions fifteen and sixteen, that's between the m four and the m forty, that's on the clockwise section, due to an earlier accident. and on the m forty between junctions one and one a, that's the stretch between denham and the m twenty five, the outside lane is closed in both directions, there also is some repair work going on between junctions five and seven, that's between stokenchurch and thame, where it's down to one lane in both directions. a forty one, that's the road between banbury and bicester, there are temporary traffic lights for resurfacing work, that's just between the soldern turn-off by the bear public house and the northants border, that's going to be causing some long delays. and it's abingdon street fair, the high street and ock street are closed, and that's er, traffic's been diverted locally today and tomorrow. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and if you've been out and about on public transport this evening, you shouldn't have had too many problems. british rail haven't had anything at all to report to us, and the local bus company's just been telling us that things are running fine. it's eight minutes to seven. hull truck theatre company's latest show opens at oxford's apollo theatre tonight; it runs for a week. in the past, the company has tackled all sorts of sporting themes including rugby; the latest production is called ‘on the piste’, and yes, it's about skiing. it's author, john godber, told me that working out how to stage the ski, the scenes on the slopes had been quite a headache for them, particularly as the set of course, has to be constantly moved from theatre from theatre as it tours round the country. the solution: white astro-turf, lubricated with baby shampoo of course. it got to the stage where we thought we were going to have to pull the idea of actually demonstrating skiing, but i follow if you're writing about skiing, you at least had to show the difficulty of putting the boots on, and putting the skis on and side-stepping up the hill, and then finding yourself in a snow-plough position, and then turning around. because that's where the humour is really; it's on the slopes, it's not, it's not back in the apres-ski sort of lodge. you have a, a great rep, reputation in hull truck as well for, for being very entertaining as a, as a, as a company. this sounds as though it has all the, all the aspects that er we'd expect from you. yes it is, er i mean, what we tried to do was to write er a comedy on a big scale that wasn't a marshmallow, er in fact it er the, the comedy deepens and it gets pretty sour, and i think some of the criticism of the play has been that ‘is it a comedy, or is it a serious play’. i mean i, i tend to think it's a, it's a play that's got some very very funny bits in it, i don't want to give away what the story's about, but whilst there's been the frivolity on the slopes, the whole thing starts to take on a, a, i tell you what it was, i remember reading an article by dr ruth, who said that good skiers are good in bed because the image of, of the skier is very potent, you know, and very strong. i took that line, so the main, the main character goes skiing for the first time, can't do it, and is frustrated because everybody else around him can do it including his girlfriend which er adds insult to injury and there is in there of course, a very attractive dashing austrian ski instructor; that's the catalyst really for the drama. and ‘on the piste’ is at the er oxford apollo, starts tonight, and it's running for the rest of the week. now this weekend, three firemen from didcot will be taking to a bicycle to cycle the length of the ridgeway. they've had to do it during the weekend, a distance of eighty five miles, and it goes across five counties. two of the intrepid cyclists are steve robson and ian connell; steve, what are you doing it for? er there's a young girl in didcot itself er her parents are known socially to the blokes at the fire brigade; she, she suffers from cerebral palsy, she's eight years old, and until recently she's been going out on bike rides with her father on a child seat, but as you know kids grow up, they grow out of things, therefore she can't do it any more. er we, we go out once a week on our bikes just to keep fit for the job more than anything, and have a pint away from the wives, er but er we've looked into the idea of getting a bike specially made for joanne, er the little girl who i said suffers from this disease. er nothing or nobody in england make anything anywhere near to what she needs for her disability. what, what does she need? she needs a bike to support her, she's, she hasn't got any mobility, she can't control her arms, her limbs, although she's there, you speak to her and she knows you're there, and if you're listening joanne, hello, we know you're there because your mum was telling us today. er. she needs to be strapped in so that dad can keep control of her, so what we have found out is a bike made in germany which is a wheelchair with the bicycle part of it clipped on the back, and once you get where you're going, it dismantles and you've got a wheelchair, you can go where you want, but it's very expensive. yes i imagine it would be, because it's er, there can't be many of them made. do you know how much it's going to cost? yes, two thousand one hundred and ninety pounds. that's a lot of money. it certainly is. now, er you're hope, you're doing this cycle in aid er you know, to, to buy this bicycle, are you going to be able to raise the whole of that money on this one, one ride? it's looking promising at the moment, we've had a lot of support from the people of didcot, er a number of companies have made donations, t n t express have given us a van to er transport the bikes to the start/finish, and denton cycles spares for the bikes if we break down, punctures being the worst it's going to be actually quite a, quite a ride because the ridgeway isn't exactly a made up road is it? no, the ridgeway's quite up and down, we've already completed a, about half the ridgeway, er the last bit being about thirty miles we done another day there. er. i've been, i've came over the handlebars, ian came over the handlebars with the bikes, so it is rough terrain it certainly is the amount of mud you pick up on your tyres and such like, it makes it treacherous. so, although eighty, eighty five miles wouldn't seem a huge distance to cycle in the day; over that sort of terrain, it's, it's going to be hard going isn't it? yes it certainly is, there, there is parts that we can't cycle on because it's public footpath, so we've got to the bye-laws such like er, and walk these stages with the bikes. so you still reckon that you can do it in, well how long, how long do you reckon it will take you? er the first day we reckon we'll have to cycle about er eleven hours, and the second day, slightly less time — ten hours probably, so it's about twenty one hours cycling. oh! you mentioned you cycle anyway to keep fit, fit do you — do you, you don't cycle over this sort of terrain do you? yes, we go up on the ridge most of the time because er we've all got mountain bikes; it makes it a bit more fun. er. going along the roads, er it, it gets a bit boring after a while cycling on tarmac and it's, once you come off you have a good laugh at the other person, you know, it makes it a bit, life more, a bit more adventurous, you know. so you could actually come back with some fair old bumps and bruises on you could you? yes, i suppose we will yes. as long as were fit for duty on tuesday we'll be alright. oh right, so you've got a day off in between have you? well, we come off duty, we go on duty tonight at half past ten, and we come off at half past ten on friday night, and we actually leave didcot fire station at half five saturday morning to get there for first light so we can make most use of the light, daylight hours. so if people would like to er sponsor you and they haven't got in touch with you, can they get you at the fire station — how do they get in touch with you? well, if they'd like to come at the fire station with their money today, barring fire calls, when we'll be out of course, or if they see the fire engine driving round didcot and it hasn't got its blue lights on and they want to flag us down, they're more than welcome to. yes, that could, yes that could be quite tricky, and er well, not much more to say apart from the best of luck to both of you. you are going to make it aren't you? yes, definitely yes definitely. thank you very much. thank you. thank you. and that was the fox report for monday the eight of october, nineteen ninety. join us for another fox report tomorrow at six, for a look at international, local and national news, but don't go away, steve priestley's back with the red fox after the news at seven o'clock. tonight: president bush warns iraq's saddam hussein not to try to drag israel into the gulf crisis as hussein threatens a long-range missile attack on israel. henley's m p, michael heseltine in fiery form against labour at the tory party conference. three times labour has failed to honour its commitment to upgrade pensions; instead they wipe the value of pensioner's savings with rampant inflation. and a new book claims william shakespeare wrote none of his plays but did look after the costumes and take the money on the door. he was the person when you go away for a vacation, that you leave the key to your flat with, that you say ‘would you water my geranium’. the six o'clock news, this is howard hughes. the two men killed by undercover troops in northern ireland today, have been named as a top i r a hit man and a former sinn fein councillor. desi grew had been in prison several times for terrorist offences, martin mccoffey had left dungannon council only a few weeks ago. three other people were arrested in the shoot out, at loughgall in county armagh, gary duffy reports: police say the two dead men were leading i r a activists; one has served long jail terms, the other wounded in a earlier shoot out with troops. it's now emerged the two men died as a large undercover operation swung into action. one local says helicopters brought in reinforcements to the isolated rural area an hour before the shooting began. i watched it for several minutes, and they seemed to be landing and one was stationary in the air, without moving, and the rest were going up and down. the men's bodies were found after six bursts of automatic gunfire. three other people are still being questioned. gary duffy, i r n, belfast. president bush is warning saddam hussein not to try and drag israel into the gulf crisis. the iraqi leader's threatened a long range missile strike on israel if it doesn't leave the occupied territories after yesterday's violence that left nineteen palestinians dead. but mr bush says ‘it's just another example of saddam's irrational behaviour’. we will watch it very carefully, and it's pretty hard to detect a pattern, now there's a, there's a theme, and that is trying to link the, the palestine question er into his kind of giving justification for what he did against kuwait, and yet the logic falls totally flat. a man accused of raping his wife has been cleared by a jury at sheffield crown court; it was the first time a man in england had been charged with such an offence. but he has been found guilty of committing serious sexual offences, and given a conditional discharge. michael heseltine is accusing labour of highjacking tory policies in a bid to get elected. the former cabinet minister says neil kinnock is trying to convince voters he's brushed aside socialism, while left-wing policies are still lurking beneath labour's new tablets of stone. and at a fringe meeting of the conservative conference in bournemouth, mr heseltine used biblical rhetoric to hammer home his warning. i would say with you to the good lord ‘spare me from mr kinnock's gaze, hold on tight to the tablets of stone less they should fall upon this hapless servant's head, may there be no rock so small that i cannot shelter behind it out of mr kinnock's sight’. world snooker champion, steven hendry has paid out ten thousand pounds to get back a cue stolen from him. it was taken from his hotel room in reading last night, where he's taking part in the rothmans grand prix championships. hendry says it's money well spent. it's tremendous really, it's an unbelievable relief for me, it would have taken me months to get used to a new cue, that's the only cue i've ever had er since i started playing eight years ago. er. and it was like losing an arm, every bit of wood has its own feel, how it reacts when you hit the ball; it's what you get used to. the john lennon hit ‘imagine’ has been played simultaneously on more than a thousand radio stations world-wide. it was one of the tributes marking what would have been his fiftieth birthday, and as paul woodley now reports from new york, friends of the singer gathered at the united nations to play the song as an anthem of peace. the tenth anniversary of john lennon's death is in december, so this event was intended to focus attention on his life and achievements; an invited audience of two hundred dignitaries heard yoko ono say — lennon's spirit is still alive through music. his music is still affecting people, affecting the world, and encouraging people to make a better world. this is, she said, ‘a day of love, something much needed in the world’— paul woodley, i r n, new york. independent radio news. it's tuesday the ninth of october, nineteen ninety. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. security sources say one of two men shot dead by the army in northern ireland early today, was a top republican assassin; he was named as desi grew, a leading member of the i r a. a former sinn fein councillor was also killed. three other people were arrested and three weapons seized in the operation near loughgall in county armagh. fergal mckinney reports from belfast. the two men who died were former sinn fein councillor martin mccoffey, and known top i r a man, thirty seven year old desi grew. he had served ten years in jail in the republic for armed robbery; eight years ago his brother seamus was killed by the r u c along with roddy mccarroll, both members of the irish national liberation army. that shooting was later to be investigated by john stalker. it now seems clear that there had been intense military activity near loughgall before last night's shooting, as one eye witness recounts: i couldn't get to sleep, and i noticed in the air there was a red light flashing, and several other green lights flashing, and they were coming,helicopter noises, and er i watched them for several minutes and they seemed to be landing and one was stationary in the air, without moving, and rest were going up and down. shadow northern ireland secretary, kevin mcnamara, says britain should mourn the two deaths, as it proves the political system in ulster has disintegrated. i'd like to know more details of the circumstances of it, but one must always mourn the deaths of people whether they are innocent civilians, members of the security forces or paramilitaries, because it's an indication that there's a failure of the system in northern ireland. the secretary of state, peter brook refused to be drawn on details of the operation. no i'm not, i'm not going to go into, into further detail until we've actually got fuller detail, and, and when one's got something firm to say, we, we will of course say it. three other people including a woman, all believed to be from the one family who were arrested at the scene are now being questioned by police, while three rifles recovered in a follow up search are being examined by forensic experts. three years ago, eight i r a men were shot dead when they attempted to blow up loughgall's police station; close to the anniversary of those deaths this year, the i r a succeeded in blowing up the base. you're listening to the fox report, it's six minutes past six. the tory party conference got under way in bournemouth today amidst a huge security operation; sally arthie was there. kenneth baker put the party faithful under starter's orders for the next general election; he told them to get ready for a fight, and then told them why they would win. determination, conviction, resolution; these are the qualities of our party, these are the qualities of our government. they are the strengths needed for any government to succeed, and let no-one doubt, either in our nation or abroad, that we, the conservative party, have the strength to succeed. success was also on cecil parkinson's mind. the transport secretary said the huge increase in the number of cars on britain's roads wasn't something to be deplored, but the sign of a prosperous economy. only the closed minded can pretend that it's bad news that more people can afford to travel, that was once the province of the few, is now open to the majority. this isn't evidence of decadence or decline, it's evidence of the spreading of wealth and the sharing of privilege. he announced more investment in rail links from the channel tunnel through kent, a new one point five billion pound east-west train link across london. britain's ports will be free to go private, and new powers will be sought to clamp down on drunk drivers; congestion will also be tackled. i can announce today that we're going to put an end to the unco-ordinated and inefficient activities of public utilities digging up our roads. and what's more, we'll have the power to charge them for the inconvenience that they cause us. it was also the turn of kenneth clarke today; the health secretary didn't have quite so much up his sleeve, but he did announce plans to set up a nationwide programme of health targets. the time has come to consider target reductions in premature deaths from strokes and heart disease; the great waster of life in a modern society. we made good progress, but a combination of better health promotion, screening and treatment should deliver say, a twenty five per cent reduction by the end of the century. premature deaths from cancer, asthma, diabetes, can be aimed at in just the same way. a little light relief in an otherwise routine opening day was provided by walter ablett from essex; a self-confessed working class tory complete with cloth cap, he spent much of his time on the platform berating labour's efforts in blackpool last week. the labour party platform displayed photographs of well-dressed people with the platform comrades looking like yuppie tailor's dummies in their expensive sharp suits. how well off they are under a conservative government. no doubt we'll be hearing more of the same as the week goes on. this is the fox report. michael heseltine has criticised government economic policy, warning that investment incentives are inadequate. but he backed the cabinet line in condemning wage increases which are, what he called wildly out of line, and risked a surge in unemployment. mr heseltine who's mp for henley, walked out of mrs thatcher's cabinet as defence secretary over the westland helicopters affair in january nineteen eighty six. he was speaking today at a tory reform group fringe meeting in bournemouth. but the man tipped as the next tory leader aimed his fiercest criticism at the labour party. labour has a list of priorities; the pensioners, are they labour priorities? three times, labour has failed to honour its commitment to upgrade pensions, in nineteen seventy six, seventy eight and seventy nine. instead, they wiped the value of pensioner's savings with rampant inflation, then they made water a priority, and then they cut the capital investment by a third. they made council housing a priority, and they halved the housing , they promised a better deal for local government and ended up with the elderly freezing in their homes, rubbish piled in the streets and the dead unburied. there is a very simple message here: if i were you mr chairman, i would not want to be a labour priority. i would say with you to the good lord ‘spare me from mr kinnock's gaze, hold on tight to the tablets of stone lest they should fall on this hapless servant's head, may there be no rock so small that i cannot shelter behind it out of mr kinnock's sight, keep the rod and staff of socialism firmly in your hands lest it be upon my back that it should be broken. you're listening to the fox report, it's twelve minutes past six. there's still a fair bit of repair work going on along the m forty, between junctions one and one a, that's the stretch between denham and the m twenty five, the outside lane is closed in both directions. and there are just er two lanes running both ways between junctions five and seven, that's between stokenchurch and thame. the a forty one, the road between banbury and bicester, there are temporary traffic lights between the soldern turn-off, that's by the bear public house and the northampshire border; that's likely to cause some long delays. and you may also be held up on the a three six one at wardington where there are some temporary traffic lights, that's just north of banbury. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. british rail tell us there's a ten minute delay this evening on the manchester to london paddington train, which er was due to leave oxford at six twenty four, so ten minutes to wait there. meanwhile on the buses, all is running well. still to come: greenpeace awaits news of one of its ships which has been seized by the soviet authorities. and horton general hospital in banbury considers opting out. first with a round up of the day's local news, here's lucy bonner. city council officials in oxford are warning more staff are needed to cope with the number of multiple-occupancy homes. they claim the city has less than half the resources it should have to deal with the growing number of such homes, h m o's for short. assistant chief environmental health officer, john copley, says people in oxford have much less of a chance of receiving help than those in other cities, even though some of them are living in appalling conditions. an awful lot of the er occupiers live in er in quite unsafe er situations, where er each night they go to bed, they run the risk of er being completely fried alive. er. aside from just the physical conditions though, it's also that they face no end of er very bad practices, often by quite poor landlords, and on some occasions very poor accommodation agencies. what er more staff would mean is that more visits can be made to more hmo's to put more of the problems right; it's, it's just about that simple. a leading politics don at oxford university has called on local parliamentary candidate, bruce kent, to urge his party to support a public referendum on electoral reform. mr kent who's labour's prospective candidate in oxford west and abingdon, pledged his own support for proportional representation during last week's party conference in blackpool. vernon bogdaner a reader in government at the university and a fellow of brasenose college, says he too is in favour of p r, and wants the electorate to be given the chance to vote on the issue. well i think that bruce kent should call for a referendum on the issue and i think the labour party should come out in favour of that. i think that would swing to the, them some of the votes of liberal democrats and former s d p people who are also in favour of proportional representation. and i think that would take the issue out of the sort of party dogfight, and let the electorate really decide, and what is after all one of the most important issues facing a democracy. a support group for the elderly in north oxfordshire says it wants more cooperation with the police in helping what it reckons is an increasing number of elderly victims of crime in the area. alec mcnair from age concern in banbury is to address a meeting of the police consultative group in the town hall tonight on the effects of crime on old people. he says more old people are being assaulted and being made the victims of con men, and he wants the police to be more helpful in putting the group in touch with those who need help. the police er don't refer a lot of things to us, i know it's difficult but er i feel that we ought to have more occasions er where er we are made aware of things that happen and then we can help er in various ways by referrals to those agencies and of course, financially. ticket touts who try and sell city tour tickets as a profit to visitors to oxford, could soon be barred under local bye-laws. the city council's particularly concerned about the congestion that touts cause on the pavement in st aldate's, which it claims is a nuisance and could be dangerous. helen atkins, the council's solicitor dealing with the issue, says the authority has to act on the complaints it received over the summer, but admits there's still a long way to go. really the council is in a position where it must act upon complaint, and it must look at the complaints and comments that's been received. the actual bye-law itself is very much in its infancy, the situation is that, if, if the council agree, if members of council agree to make the bye-law, then it would have to be referred to the home office and then to the secretary of state. now he may or may not confirm it, so it's, it's very much in its inf, infant stages. fox f m news, lucy bonner reporting. it's seventeen minutes past six. greenpeace campaigners are urgently seeking news of one of their ships which was seized by the soviet authorities. communications with the m v greenpeace were cut yesterday after it was boarded by armed soviet guards off the arctic island of naviazenya in the barent sea. the coordinator rebecca johnson says they failed to re-establish contact with the vessel, which had been protesting against the resumption of nuclear testing on the island. we have still not been given any kind of direct word, we've not been back in direct communication with them. the soviet authorities seem to be playing a slightly odd game, they're putting out information through a tas er press agency release that says that everybody's back on the ship and being taken to murmansk where an enquiry will be held. but when we talked directly with them, they refused to confirm this, they refused to put us in touch with the ship, they refused to confirm whether or not er the four activists who were walking to the test site had been apprehended, whether they're safe, whether they're being held separately, and so on. we're asking for er communication back with the ship and we're asking for some straightforward answers from them. how concerned are you for their safety? we are obviously very concerned and will continue to be concerned until we, we hear er for definite what has happened. er. i've a feeling that, that probably they are all together and that they are safe because i think the, the, the, the soviets are probably trying to, to damp down the issue now by keeping quiet on it, because i think they've been very rattled. we've, the protest succeeded in focusing a spotlight on this northern test site where the soviets hope to continue nuclear testing after their own people stopped them in khazakstan they're rattled and they're angry with us, and now they're punishing us by preventing us from having direct communication with our friends and finding out that they're safe and well. i hope and really i have every expectation that they are safe and well, but i want to know. presumably the soviets that argued that these protesters shouldn't be there in the first place and they have the right to apprehend them if, if they want to? well, er we're not saying they don't, er, you, we, we went there to protest nuclear testing, we knew that er you know, we, that that, that protest would be opposed, but now that those people have been seized, er surely the very least they can do is inform us that they're safe and well, and where they are and what is being intended; that, that is not, er that is not too much to ask. you're listening to the fox report. oxford city council says it's satisfied that thames water is doing all it can to prevent another outbreak of cryptosporidiosis; the water bug which struck the oxford and swindon areas early last year. the chief environmental health officer, tony fenn, says he's concerned the sickness and diarrhoea which was caused by contaminated water at farmoor reservoir, could endanger the lives of the elderly and very young if it re-occurred. but he's been telling members of the environmental protection committee this afternoon that he has every confidence in the steps that thames water has taken to prevent an recurrence of the events of eighteen months ago. robin powell reports. last year's outbreak was the first of its kind in the country. an emeritus fellow at merton college, sir john badenoch was asked to investigate what cryptosporidium is, and how it can be prevented. the report recommends local authorities monitor water supplies and review their emergency plans in the event of further outbreaks. tony fenn says the city's taking on board those recommendations, as a bug which has struck once, could strike twice. if we have er unfortunately, an incident like last years’, the members will want action taken very quickly indeed. er. that action mainly has to be pressuring the thames water utility company to er to get its act together, and i must say that er since the last outbreak, they have been working hard at it. er. but also we need to make sure that members of the public know exactly what to do, er in relation to their own water supplies. for its part thames water welcomed the report, but spokesman tom curtin says the company's been acting on the sorts of things it's recommended for some time. we have intensified our monitoring at farmoor, spending in the region of one million pounds, er to monitor further for the parasite cryptosporidium. it is this sort of intensive monitoring which we think and know acts as a guarantee to our customers, that we are doing all that is possible to avoid a further outbreak of this er parasite. it was obviously a very serious outbreak last year, what are the chances of it happening again? we feel that we are doing everything possible to avoid a further recurrence of this unfortunate parasite. i would also like to say that the report does mention obligations of other interested er people like er farming groups etc., and the national rivers authority to er do everything possible from stopping the parasite entering the water in the first place. a spokesman for the national farmers union in oxfordshire says members are encouraged to be very careful to avoid slurry leakage. meanwhile, the n r a says it treats very seriously its responsibility to stop any contaminating material getting into water supplies, and it's keen to offer guidelines to farmers on issues such as farm waste disposal. all it seems are agreed it'll take a team effort to stop cryptosporidiosis striking again. you're listening to the fox report. it's twenty four minutes past six. britain's biggest building society says the worst could be over for hard pressed mortgage payers. figures from the halifax show growth of half a per cent in house prices during september, the first rise for three months. the head of planning for the halifax, gary marsh, predicts a five per cent rise in prices next year. some of our worst fears of prices falling for example in the north, as they have already done in the south, haven't been realised. and in fact prices would seem now to be levelling off somewhat throughout the country, slowing down in the north and levelling off at the current levels in the south. that really encourages us to say now that prices will fall in nineteen ninety, but only marginally, perhaps by up to two or three per cent or so, but gradually there we'll see a recovery now in nineteen ninety one, and that's why we're saying price rises by the end of ninety one of five per cent or more even. i think there are still some quite pronounced regional differences between the north and the south and between particularly scotland and northern ireland and the rest of the country — would you see any further coming together of the more expensive properties and the cheaper properties? i don't think we'll see much further coming together. what's happen, what happened was, in the mid to late eighties, london led the way in the housing market and prices in london became very very expensive relative to the rest of the country. but now, really what's happened over the past two years is though, is that much of the rest of the country has recovered that gap, and we're back to more normal patterns now. we would say that the gap has, it did widen, it's narrowed again, and we, we're back to a situation of stability. will first time buyers be able to come in again now and actually get things moving, now that the interest rates have come down? first time buyers have been coming in. over the past few months we've seen a far higher proportion of our own borrowers being first time buyers, okay at very low levels, but er a much higher proportion being first time buyers. er. the reason for that is that they're in a very good position in the market now, they, they can negotiate very good deals on houses they're buying, there's a very good choice of properties available, people by the mid nineteen nineties will look back on nineteen ninety as probably the time to have bought, when house prices were at their cheapest. you're listening to the fox report. a headmaster is claiming that the craze for the teenage mutant hero ninja turtles, is encouraging aggression and promoting the belief that might is right. david pott from the shepherds primary school in london, says the heros in harsh shells are feeding children a diet of violence, and parents should try and stop it. i think it's partly the subtlety of it, because on the surface, er the teenage mutant turtles are er sort of in the classic goodies v baddies mould, and er they're rather charming in fact, they're almost naive, they kind of stroll along enjoying their pizzas, and if you look at the front of a lot of the magazines there, they're looking really, really merry and cheerful. but er their, their real function is, is to fight; the whole thing is about turtle power, and er their, their main theme song says ‘we're a fierce fighting team’, and er so you, you see a change from the quite sort of innocent er appearance to suddenly er a lot of aggression. well, i mean if, they are only cartoon characters after all and tom and gerry have got to fit into the exactly that mould, and nobody takes that too seriously. no that's right, but er i think that progressively in our society we've seen er a lowering of the standards in terms of what's acceptable for children to read. i mean obviously this is nothing new, obviously there's been this sort of thing for some time in the past, but i think what we've got to ask ourselves is ‘what sort of a society are we now reaping?’ on the one hand we're really concerned about increase in violent crime er and we've got to ask ourselves ‘where did those people who are now in their late teens and twenties and thirties who commit those sort of crimes, where did they, where did it all begin from?’ well i think there are a lot of socio-economic factors, but i think one of the factors is the sort of things those people fed on when they were er in their perhaps primary years, and early secondary years. so what do you think should be done? well, i think that really education is going to be the most important thing. i think in fact just sort of plain banning probably wouldn't solve the problem because forbidden fruit is always more attractive; i think the answer is sort of careful and lively education. er and i really think that we, one should teach children discernment, give them guidelines, let them think about consequences, and then make responsible choices themselves. you're listening to the fox report. banbury's horton general hospital has announced it's considering following the lead of the nuffield orthopaedic centre and considering opting out of the n h s. but the hospital is stressing that er at this stage, it's merely gathering information to enable it to make a more considered decision at a later date. in any case, as general manager, denis baston has been telling robin powell, such major changes require careful consideration. the government er has been enacting legislation which will change the financing of the health service very substantially, er from the first of april, er we will be into negotiating contracts for health care, er we're already producing business plans er for the work that we do. it's a completely new area er and we're not sure of the impact of all these changes on the future of the horton, and that's what we're trying to investigate. having said it's a new area, self-management itself is not new to the horton is it? that's true, in that up to nineteen seventy four, the horton had er its own er hospital management committee, er with a locally based chairman and, and committee who ran the hospital. er. and of course there, there are certain er views around that would er certainly suggest that, that that would receive support; the idea of local er management coming back to banbury. there's obviously considerable political hype surrounding the idea of self-management of hospitals, but you're keen not to get involved in that kind of political slanging match aren't you? indeed, i, i mean there, there is a, a great difference of opinion between the two political parties on how the health service er should be organised. we're keen er to investigate the facts of the implications of the present legislation er and what effect that will have on the future of the horton. we want to give the best possible hospital service in the nineteen nineties for our community, and that's what we're looking at. but of course, even if the horton does decide to go self-governing, it still depends on the government to give the go ahead? indeed yes, i mean er there, there will be all kinds of considerations, one of which of course is the financial viability of this hospital in the future, er and as i said earlier, the contracting process for health care er is an unknown quantity. we may be better off with health care contracts if money follows the patient as the government er intends it to do, but we just don't know and that's what we're investigating at the present time. this is the fox report, it's six thirty. there are still some repairs going on along the m forty between junctions one and one a, that's between denham and the m twenty five, with the outside lane closed in both directions, for barrier repairs and some light maintenance. also it's down to two lanes running in both directions between junctions five and seven, that's between stokenchurch and thame, and er on the a forty one the road between banbury and bicester, there are temporary traffic lights, that's between the soldern turnoff by the bear public house and northampshire border, that's going to be causing some delays. you also may be held up a little on the a three six one at wardington where there are some temporary traffic lights, that's just north of banbury on the main banbury to daventry road. and a forty one ruscote avenue, banbury is completely closed southbound at the junction with orchard way for some paving work, and traffic is being diverted. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and i've nothing too bad to report to you on the buses or trains. it's six thirty one. two men have been killed by undercover troops in northern ireland today, and they've been named as top i r a hit man and former sinn fein coun, and a former sinn fein councillor. desi grew has been in jail several times for terrorist offences, and martin mccoffey has left dungannon council just a few weeks ago. president bush is warning saddam hussein he won't get away with trying to drag israel into the gulf crisis; the iraqi's leader's threatened a long-range missile strike on israel if it doesn't get out of the occupied territories after yesterday's violence that left nineteen palestinians dead. a man accused of raping his wife has been cleared by a jury at sheffield crown court. it was the first time a man in england has been charged with such an offence. and the john lennon hit single ‘imagine’ has been played simultaneously on more than a thousand radio stations worldwide; it was one of the tributes on what would have been the ex-beatle's fiftieth birthday, and was played as an anthem to world peace. the weather? well, it'll be dry this evening and for much of the night, but the cloud's going to thicken and there could be a few spots of light rain over high ground by dawn. the lowest temperature — fairly mild; ten degrees celsius, fifty degrees fahrenheit. still to come: oxford relate says proposals to make divorce easier could be counter-productive. first though, this week is shelter week and the charity which campaigns for the homeless is aiming to raise thirty five thousand pounds. oxford has a particularly bad problem when it comes to homelessness. jeremy spafford from oxford's housing aid centre is specifically involved with helping single people who find themselves well down the list when it comes to being provided with a home. jeremy, i, i said it was a, a particularly bad problem, er we, we are worse off in this area for homelessness that a lot of other places aren't we? yes, i mean, er the person you interviewed earlier from the environmental health, i think pointed out that er oxford actually outside inner, inner city london, has er the highest number of properties which are er known as houses of multiple occupation which are often in disrepair. and i think er when it comes to homelessness, er we have to think very carefully about what we mean; and sometimes er people think it's er purely in terms of having er some kind of shelter, er and we have a lot of people in oxford er, an estimate er has been a figure of, of three thousand people. er who could be described as homeless. and these are people, not just those on the streets or in the shelter, night shelter or er in a temporary hostel and so on, but also people who find themselves in er accommodation which none of us i think would really want to call home. and er we find that those of us who are working with homeless people are increasingly simply trying to find some kind of shelter for a few nights rather than actually trying to find a home for people. it's a very serious problem in oxford. and, and a lot of single people as i mentioned, they, they, they don't come anywhere on, on a housing list to have housing provided for them — what can you do to help them find places? well, er not a lot is, is, is the honest answer, we, we work very hard at it of course, but er the truth is that er the only rights that people have are rights that can be enforced by law, and er in, in law, the only people that the local authority has to provide with accommodation are people who er have children who are particularly vulnerable, and there are very strict definitions of that. and most single people and er most young people in particular, fall outside that definition and that means that they really have no access to council housing of any kind and er they also find it very hard to get into the private rented sector, because of er the fact that's it's er, the rents are so high, and, and therefore they are at the mercy of erm basically the well, well loosely what one could describe as the bad landlords, the sharks, who will er exploit their situation. er. and they have the choice between either er running the gauntlet of erm bad landlords, temporary accommodation, the streets, the shelters, friend's floors, er or simply hoping that er government policy will change, and er at some point somebody will prioritise er the provision of new housing stock . so what, what do you as, as, i mean, it seems unlikely that, that single people will ever be moved right up the list, i mean, do you, do you see any other solution? well there are things we can do, er there thing, basically it's about finding er a way of shifting priorities. now obviously er the, the government has to shift priorities, and that's not something that's going to change overnight, given the er, the attitude of central government towards these people at the moment, which is extremely negative. however, locally there are things we can do er in terms of trying to improve the kind, er the amount of support available er to er young people and single people in general, who are in this predicament. er. for example, i mean the local authority, the city council has provided er funds for workers in this area and for er an emergency shelter for young people in this area. that could, that needs to be maintained, it could also be extended, though of course they have great difficulties because of er their, their own financial restrictions, but we also, i think as a community, need to think about who these homeless people are, and, and not to regard them as some kind of alien population, but to realise that there are, they are our own neighbours, they are our own families that are in this predicament, and that collectively we need to join together and actually make demands on central government and locally to try and do something about it. jeremy, thank you very much. thank you. divorce could become easier if new proposals being considered by the government should become law. they suggest that a couple should be allowed to get divorced after one year without having to attribute blame for the split. holmes from oxford homes relate, the old marriage guidance council, says a year is a very short time, she says couples may be confused by the natural progression from the state of being in love to something less emotionally exciting. the fact is you can't stay on top of a cloud indefinitely, and however long you put it off, there's going to be a corresponding second phase of disappointment and disenchantment when each partner becomes aware of the bits that they're not so keen on. and they may not be able to cope with that, which is why i am always a little bit anxious if marriages break up very quickly, because it might indicate that what they're really doing is just going into that second phase. but for them it feels like such a disaster after the first phase, that they don't know what to do about it. only it may feel like such a disaster that, that they feel they can't do anything about it, er but you're saying that that isn't, isn't necessarily the case? well it may be that they don't know how to, or that they set out such patterns of relating together that they haven't got the means of coping with it. maybe they don't find it hard to, they don't find it very easy to talk to each other about difficult things; maybe they can't say the sort of things ‘i love you but, i wish you didn't, such and such’. maybe they haven't er been able to er find ways of talking to each other about those difficult things, and maybe they've, they've built up lots and lots of assumptions and resentments and disappointment, and they don't know how to handle it, and they feel that the only thing they can do is to get out. now you say that's the second stage, is there a third stage that's, that's er, puts more joy on the horizon? well, couples will either work on, work out that phase or not, and of course some may, may, may not be able to cope with it and decide to split up. but other couples will either find a way through and re-negotiate their relationship to allow for the different people that they've now become, or they may shelve them because they get caught up in the, the very busyness of life, what we call the, the productivity phase, which is the third phase, where couples are maybe having children, building up a family, building up careers; they're involved in that sort of activity. er. and maybe not even have time to think about their relationship to be able to sort out any deep problems, and maybe they're getting put, put aside. so, do you think that by making divorce possible so early on, that a lot of marriages that could be saved, will in fact er founder? well it's always hard to know what to do, it maybe that the couple have, have made a chronic mistake and who wants anybody to carry on in, in a painful and impossible situation? what, what i would always hope though, is that they might go for some help, because even if they decide to separate, and er get support while they're doing so, they may be able to understand what was going on in the relationship, what they were looking for in each other. because if they don't, if they don't become any more aware of what's going on for them, they will take all that unfinished business into a new relationship and statistically, we know that second or third time marriages are more likely to break down than first time marriages. you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty to seven. still to come: was shakespeare in truth the seventeenth earl of oxford, and a van gogh made of money at the museum of modern art. first, financial report with halpern and woolf keeping oxfordshire in business. the london stock markets staged a complete turn round today as tension increased in the gulf, with the iraqi president saddam hussein, threatening israel. nervousness was exacerbated by another weak wall street opening, a further rise in oil prices and fears that exports could be adversely affected by the strong pound. however, trading was strong with eight hundred and nineteen million shares changing hands today, and the profit taking was again the order of the day, with the close of the footsie one hundred index down sixty seven point five at two one three four point one. on the foreign exchanges, sterling gained ground on the weaker dollar, ending the day up at one dollar point nine seven three oh, however, it ended down one point seven pfennigs closing at three deutschmarks point o o six four. today's share prices: abbey national down two at two two eight, british aerospace down twenty two at five three seven, british airways down three at a hundred and forty one, british gas went down four point five at two two seven point five, british telecom down six point five at two hundred and eighty four, goodhead publishing group stayed at sixty, metalbox down fifty to one o o seven five, morland brewers unchanged at two hundred and seventy, oxford instruments went down four to two three three, thames water was down five at two two nine and the trustee savings bank went down one to a hundred and thirty seven. you're listening to the fox report. sport now, and the major talking point at oxford stadium today has been the oxford city council decision to agree planning permission for the stadium to extend their grandstand leisure complex. senior planning officer, andrew lewis says that after various planning applications over the past two years which were turned down, due to objections from local residents, the latest plans have now been cleared, regarding the extension and the feelings of the local residents. there have been before the present application which was approved, there have been applications refused because the oxford city planning committee were concerned particularly about er access and parking arrangements, and the effects of the extensions er on the front of the building, er very close to sandy lane, by the impact of those buildings in particular on residential amenity, on the houses and the occupants of them on the other side of sandy lane. have the local residents put up much objection to these new extension plans? yes, there have been some very vigorous objections made by local residents, and that is particularly why the application that preceded this one was refused planning permission because er the objections they made were considered to be well founded by the planning committee and supported many of their views. er. the application that has recently been approved overcomes many of the local resident's er objections, although i think it is fair to say that er some local residents are still concerned about oxford stadium's operations, er on particular occasions and the way it affects them. you're listening to the fox report. well, on the football front, there's some big news for oxford united's fans, isn't there mickey? monday october the twenty ninth, pencil in that date oxford united supporters. kevin maxwell and brian horton will be answering questions at the next oxford united supporters forum, which will be held at the supporter's club. now, upmost in my mind is what john durnin has as a pre-match meal. yes of course mickey , i er, of course, of course , of course . now there are a lot of supporters, er are they going to be er, is there going to be room for everybody? i don't think so, but it's going to be really interesting this time because we're going to actually, actually see kevin maxwell — hope he doesn't wear that cloth cap, it's not really him, he's a very young man. but we've just got to wait and see, i mean, i know the sort of questions they're going to ask, and they do deserve to hear some answers, i promise you that jane. hmm well you've been giving a few answers yourself over the last few weeks. er i mean, they, they don't call these meetings for nothing, have you anything, any idea what might be er brought up at the meeting? well obviously financially the club has gone downhill, i've no doubt mark lawrenson's name will be mentioned again, dean saunders. the supporters are not happy with that, they want to know the real truth and well, so do i in a way, because i don't really know. okay, what's happening locally this evening? locally, i've got brackley down, brackley town pencilled in down here, now they're playing earthling borough diamonds in the united counties premier league; now earthling borough diamonds, they've yet to win a match and with a name like that they don't deserve to, i'm just glad they're not on my patch, although elmensbury pixons are apparently. and while we're on the subject of local football, witney town please answer the phone on saturday afternoon because phil angel just doesn't know your res, result. i mean, we tried and tried saturday, apparently the game was called off. oh well it worked with abingdon, let's, let's see if it works with witney mickey , thank you very much. you're listening to the fox report. psychic t v and video sculptures have come to the museum of modern art in oxford; they form part of an exhibition of video, film and slide tape art across the past decade. signs of the times develops themes from the environment to aliens taking over your television set, as fox reporter, lucy bonner discovered. signs of the times is dominated by television sets, sometimes in strange settings. jeremy welsh's forest fires is an all round experience, with leaves on the floor, the smell of woodsmoke and warmth from the fire, which happens to be a group of camouflaged televisions. exhibitions assistant, john leslie, explains. there's an image of fire on the screens and they're piled up like a bonfire with er natural things that have been brought in from the outside, and there's slide tape projections of the forest around the gallery. these pillars here in the gallery are kind of working also quite minimally as trees in the gallery, so it sets up a nice atmosphere. the idea is that he's using them as, as a way of communicating the idea of the forest being er landscaped; the whole environment of being polluted and it has an ecological background to it. in another display, the sets form a circle round the visitor in a sculptor originally intended to be outside on dartmoor. these can be read as standing stones, that you hear the celtic lament on the sound track, and this piece again has a kind of environmental, ecological background that judith was using, to do with how we live with technology all the time around us, and also juxtaposing that with, with the natural world. fire is the focal point of susan hiller's balthazar's feast which explores the visions people see in their fireside, and now apparently, in their t v's. the fireplace was the centre of a living room where you looked into the flames and you relaxed in front of them and saw images. now people are using their television set as, as a focal point in their lives, in their, in their living room at least. also, as you say, this piece, the psychic people have actually reported having messages come through their televisions and seeing images and having communications from sort of other, other areas, other places. and for those who remembered the millions that were bid for van gogh's ‘sunflowers’, there's a telling reproduction of the picture, made entirely out of coins. but even though this version isn't quite as expensive as the original, the gallery isn't taking any chances; a full-time guard prevents anyone from on cashing in on this artistic venture. you're listening to the fox report. was the seventeenth earl of oxford, edward de vere, the real shakespeare? novelist, andrew field, claims to have discovered the lost chronicle of edward de vere in a hidden compartment of a desk in chipping norton, and he's written a convincing novel round the supposed documents, supporting the theory that de vere was a diplomat scholar and soldier beloved of elizabeth the first, that he in fact, wrote the plays and the sonnets. he says the real shakespeare was no more than the man who looked after the horses and the costumes. actually you know that's the historical record of shakespeare, and the theory put about is that er he once played one of the ghosts, hamlet's father. he was supposedly an actor, you can't find any record of him as an actor, er he was apparently a dependable country bumpkin who became fairly important in managing the money, er shakespeare was someone whom the theatre people could count on, a simple as that. he was the person, when you go away for a vacation, that you leave the key to your flat with, that you say would you water my geranium; that is the historical sum of william shakespeare, it's the truth. and the, the incredible er spectacle that we have of the endless three, four, five hundred page biography is based on no evidence at all, because we know very very little about this man, except that he was a shareholder in the theatre, a very very minor actor, the sort yes, who would have minded the costumes. on the front, front cover you've got the portrait of william shakespeare that, that you claim was in fact a painted over portrait of er, of de vere. actually, i, i don't claim that, that's a fact. in january nineteen forty, a scientist named charles barrell, er was examining that portrait, not as an art historian, but scientifically, and of course there's always the question with portraits of what might be under it, because er canvas was very very expensive and people didn't waste materials then as they do now, because they were in relatively short supply, good painting canvas. and er he x-rayed that portrait and he found a portrait of edward de vere under that portrait, purportedly of shakespeare, and then rather alerted, he went to work on the outer portrait and er he took particular care over the signet ring, and er that contains the de vere boar. that's not literary opinion, that's a fact, and isn't in, incredible that something like that didn't shake some foundations, not a bit of it. terry eagleton of oxford made the comment, er oh i think a year or two ago, in the sunday times that er there is too much established in the name william shakespeare for anyone to be willing to fool around with it. when you think about it, a lot of people will look very foolish when finally de vere cannot be evaded. not least the royal de vere theatre company perhaps? yes, well er he owned a property near stratford-on-avon as well, so there's no terrible problem there, after all, er shakespeare was his pseudonym and it was a pseudonym like george orwell, like, like any other, blair, orwell, de vere, shakespeare. so we can keep the name shakespeare and er we can keep the er tea towel trade and stratford-on-avon, though it is a pity what's happened to the r s c isn't it, and maybe out of these ashes will rise a new royal de vere company, one never knows.. on the m twenty five, traffic's heavy and slow moving clockwise between junctions fifteen and sixteen, that's the stretch between the m four and the m forty. on the m forty itself traffic seems to be fairly smooth at er, there are some repairs going on still between junctions one and one a, that's between denham and the m twenty five, with the outside lane closed in both directions. also the m forty is down to two lanes in both directions between junctions five and seven, that's between stokenchurch and thame. a forty one, there's temporary traffic lights between soldern turn off and the northampshire border, that's just between banbury and bicester, and there are likely to be some delays along the a three six one at wardington where there are also temporary traffic lights, that's just north of banbury on the main banbury to daventry road. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and i've still nothing to tell you about the buses or the trains. bobby vinton's ‘blue velvet’ is this week's network chart number one; he hasn't had a hit since the nineteen sixties, and when he was told of his success in america, he thought he'd been made the victim of a jeremy beadle style prank. he says he's a teen idol who's grown to be very rich. here in america i perform a lot in las vegas and atlantic city and i probably make more money today than i ever did when i was selling a lot of records as a teenage idol. in my show, i do everything, because i am er, er i try all the instruments, i sing in different languages, it, it's kind of an act that the americans er really enjoy because it is so versatile. and, and because of this and my old hits, er i am able to have a big following, and to perform when did you first hear that the record er was doing so well in england? about a week ago; i just found out. david most who as you know is a record promoter in england, er i knew twenty five years ago, when i went to england. he was a young er man er who was just er a young boy, he was promoting records and trying to get into the business and, and er he remembered me well, and when they found out that i wasn't easy to, to reach, no-one knew where i was, he was able to track me down and when he told me that er i had this big hit record, i thought it was someone playing a joke on me, because here in america, they have a television show called the blue bird, where they play jokes on people and, and tell them things, and then they videotape you and then there's a funny reaction that this is a big television show. so i thought perhaps someone was playing a joke on me for, for a television show what bobby vinton would do if he found out a number one record in england. and how did you react? i said, i says ‘come on, where's the camera, what's the joke, and erm and, and why are you, you know, what is this all about?’ i didn't really believe it at first, er, and then i received couple or more phone calls from er various people in the industry who er, who were aware of it and started to congratulate me, and then i realised that it was the truth, that er i really did have a big hit record once again with blue velvet. you're listening to the fox report. finally the m forty is getting nearer. are you excited at the prospect of its opening — angry, totally bored with the subject? banbury's library and museum though are hoping to record your views, and they're going to, hopefully, make some history. julia nicholson is the creator, curator of the museum in banbury; julia, what sort of, what sort of things are you after? well what we're doing is we're, er organising a project to record what's happened with the motorway. last week for instance, we had somebody out on the motorway interviewing the site workers, but we also want to hear from people in the local communities, around banbury, around bicester, and found out what they feel about the motorway, because it's going to have an enormous impact on the area. i think people perhaps aren't aware how important it's going to be. from the point of the mus, point of view of the museum, people always think about museums as places where you find historical objects, well we're now creating the history of the future, so that future generations will know about, er you know, what happened at the time of, of building the motorway. so are you going to put their views on tape, or are going to er get them to write them down — how are you actually going to record them? well there's a whole range of kind of wacky ideas that we'll be working on. er. we will be recording er, talking to individual groups that are interested in, in er expressing their views, particularly groups that perhaps have been involved with the protest, and er are you know, not happy with, with some aspects of the motorway. er. perhaps people that are involved with the er the ardley service station, and we'd like to hear from any history groups, school groups, anybody that's got an interest in that side, that would like to have their, their views er recorded. what we'll be doing is er organising an exhibition which will come on stream at the museum in the middle of february, and will run until june, and that exhibition will include you know, er all, well, some of the material that, that's been recorded, such as the, you know, the aural history tapes, er some of perhaps the, the press cuttings and things that have come out of the motorway. but also some really exciting projects like er we've had people making sculptures out of scrap from the motorway, we've had, er we're going to have a music project working on, again working on scrap from the motorway. and er so there'll be a whole range of creative projects as well as er, as well as more documentary type things. er i think we heard from banbury school earlier in the year, talking about their music project, that's going to be part of it i understand as well yes, that, that's, that's very much part of it, but we want, you know history's only, only made by people, it's made by every, you know, all of us really, so you know, we're asking for groups now to come to us and say, you know, ‘we want to do a project on x to do with the motorway’, and we'll be prepared to, you know, back it up as much as we can. they can literally come to you at the museum can they? yes, they can just give us a ring at the museum, the number is er banbury two five nine eight double five, or to ring the library at banbury as well, they're involved with the publication, and what will come out of it is not just an exhibition, but a whole archive for the future, i mean i'm sure in the past we, we would have er liked to have known more about how the canals were built perhaps. wonderful, julia, thank you very much. and that was the fox report, and it was indeed the fox report for tuesday the ninth of october, nineteen ninety. steve priestley is here after the news with the red fox. tonight, as oxfordshire's post begins to get back to normal, talks are still going on at abingdon sorting office to decide whether they'll go back. relate welcomes tighter divorce laws. you won't be granted a divorce until a period of a year has elapsed and during that period you'll have to work out access and maintenance for the children. extra police are on duty in blackbird leys as crime there goes up. it's not just because we've had police officers injured. we've had extra officers in there all the time, but we're going to step that up now. that's what's really inside the british banger. we don't actually have to have all that much meat. only about a third of them has to be what you really call meat. twenty four hours a day on one o two point six, this is fox f m. the six o'clock news. this is catharine kelly. president bush is threatening to challenge the iraqis by sending a ship the gulf to re-supply the american and british embassies in kuwait. the move would raise the possibility of an imminent military confrontation with saddam hussein. from washington, nick peters reports. it's a strategy that would make the embassies the potential flashpoint for war. one official has said that an unarmed american ship would attempt to land supplies in kuwait harbour, close to where both embassies are situated. if the iraqis oppose the landing in contravention of the latest u n security council resolution demanding re-supply of diplomats, then the official said you would have a classic pretext for war. nick peters, i r n, washington. britain is protesting to germany over a planned mission to baghdad by former west german chancellor willy brandt. the germans and italians say a team of european politicians should go to negotiate the release of hostages, even though they agree that such trips should be condemned. ten british wives of hostages held in iraq will fly to baghdad next week to plead with the iraqi leader for their release. two of the women have said they are petrified amid warnings that war could break out soon, but they say they have to go. radical changes in the divorce laws are set to be introduced in england and wales. the law commission is recommending an end to quickie divorces. also proposed is a twelve month cooling off period where couples consider the situation and parents reflect on their children's future with a marriage guidance counsellor. but zelda westmeads of relate says that the new system won't work unless agencies like hers get more cash. we already have asked the government for an increase of our grant from one million to ten million. at the moment we have about ten thousand people on our waiting list. that means often a period of up to three months. now with the new proposals, unless the government actually increase our grant and we can increase the number of customers we have, we wouldn't be able to see the people who really needed to see us very often. hard cash will soon be back in fashion. from early next year people using credit cards will have to pay more in some shops than people using money. the government says it will help shops meet the cost of processing credit. ann costello reports. trade minister, john redwood, says there'll be no limit on a surcharge imposed by retailers. what we will be doing is saying that it has to be clearly stated so that customers can see before they enter into the transaction and then we expect competitive forces in the market to make sure that the charges don't get unrealistic. but shoppers differed on whether they thought it was good news. if i'm actually being charged every time i use my credit card i wouldn't use it. credit restrictions are a good idea because people are in a lot of debt. the charge will come into effect next year. the prosecution case against boxer terry marsh has drawn to a close with no evidence being offered by the defence. marsh denies attempting to murder his former manager, frank warren. from the old bailey, emma howard. defence council, richard ferguson q c, has taken the decision not to put terry marsh in the witness box and to start preparing his closing speech to the jury. the final day of the hearing has included evidence from a metropolitan police forensic expert, who admitted ammunition found at the scene of the crime didn't match that found at marsh's parents' home. the jury of seven men and five women have been given the day off tomorrow while both sides consider the evidence against marsh and on monday make their final submissions to the court. emma howard, i r n, the old bailey. anti-terrorist squad officers have discovered two i r a safe houses in london. detectives believe terror gangs have been renting flats in london and the midlands using them as a base for operations and then moving on. acting on tip-offs from the public, they raided two homes in wembley, finding false documents but no guns or ammunition. marks and spencer is to stop selling organic fruit and vegetables because of a lack of demand. the company has tried going green at thirty of its stores, but it claims customers can't tell the difference between environmentally friendly produce and that which has been sprayed with chemicals. independent radio news. on one o two point six f m, this is the fox report with jane markham. it's thursday november the first, nineteen ninety. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. the postal service in oxfordshire has begun to get back to normal today, but not all postal workers are back, despite yesterday's vote. staff at the abingdon sorting office are still out, following a disagreement over the settlement that had been reached between the union and the management. lucy bonner has this report. after intense negotiations last night and this morning, unions and management agreed a set of proposals which were then put to u c w members. they voted unanimously to return to work. however, when the union representative reported the vote to management, he was informed they wished to change the original agreement. this resulted in members refusing to resume duties and negotiations are currently underway. staff are on the premises waiting to return to work, and branch secretary, brian jefferies, says he is optimistic the situation will be resolved, but if no agreement is reached it may have implications elsewhere in the county. you're listening to the fox report. it's five past six. the so-called quickie divorce could be abolished in england and wales. the law commission wants to introduce a twelve month period of reflection for couples wanting to break up. it says couples wanting to split up should be able to do so without proving who's to blame. this report from hervovie todd. brenda hogget q c, one of the five commissioners involved in the family law report, says that the current legislation is confusing and dishonest. it pretends that there's single no-fault ground for divorce — that the marriage has irretrievably broken down — but in practice it encourages nearly three-quarters of divorcing couples to rely on fault based grounds — adultery, or unreasonable behaviour as it's usually called — and then makes it difficult for anybody to defend allegations, irrespective of whether that was the real reason why the marriage broke down. it pretends that the court is able to investigate those reasons in great depth, whereas in practice it is not able to do so, and in any event that investigation is not going to save the marriage. the twelve month cooling off period is for the couple to consider and reflect upon their failed marriage with the aid of a marriage counsellor. during this time, the marriage could be saved or the custody of the children resolved before the courts agreed that the marriage was irretrievably broken down. the proposal was welcomed by the marriage guidance counsellors, relate. it's spokesman, zelda westmeads, says the children of broken marriages would be the first to benefit from the change. with the new proposals it seems the needs of the children will be put first because you won't be granted a divorce until a period of a year has elapsed and during that period you'll have to work out access and maintenance for the children and put their needs first and that seems very good. you're listening to the fox report. from next march shops will be able to charge more for credit card purchases than cash transactions. today's announcement follows a monopolies commission enquiry into the no discrimination rule protecting credit card users from a surcharge. the commission concluded that the rule was unfair, and the government has decided to abolish it, paving the way for retailers to charge two sets of prices. the move will be welcomed by traders who've complained about the high cost of processing credit card payments. corporate affairs minister, john redwood, explained the government's decision. the government has given two orders to the house of commons for their approval. the first allows more people to come in and supply all the services involved in providing credit cards. we want more choice and better prices from them, and the second says the shops can now decide whether to charge the same amount for credit card and cash purchases, or whether to charge differentially. for example, to offer a discount to those who pay cash because it's cheaper for the shop to handle their transaction. are you putting any limits on the extra amount that shops would be able to charge? no, what we would be doing is saying that it has to be clearly stated so that the customers can see before they enter into the transaction, and then we expect competitive forces in the market to make sure that the charges don't get unrealistic. what are the motives for that? well the motives are to offer more choice, to provide more competition in the credit card market and a better deal for customers and, to the extent that there are prices changes, we'd expect them to be beneficial, particularly to those who are buying with cash or debit cards rather than credit cards. but is it also part of the push to bring down inflation, to curb credit? no, the main intention, as i have said, is to provide a better deal, particularly for the cash customer and the debit card user. if it has any effect, it will be slightly beneficial on the inflation front, but i wouldn't want to exaggerate that. have you any indications as yet as to how many other credit cards could come on the scene? well the market is already growing quite well. i've got no specific figures or names in mind, but i think there will be a further growth, particularly in the number of people who supply existing credit cards, and that's important because they may do better and different deals with the retailers over how much they charge for the processing. you're listening to the fox report. it's nine minutes past six. hello there, i'm dana. come and see me at the apollo, oxford, where i'm appearing in the pantomime snow white and the seven dwarfs. snow white and the seven dwarfs opens on friday december the twenty first and runs until sunday january the twenty seventh. ticket prices are four pounds seventy five to eight seventy five, with a wide range of concessions available. so call the apollo box office soon. make it a family outing at snow white and the seven dwarfs, with michelle collins of eastenders, phil angel of fox f m and starring dana. so i'll see you there. oh no you won't. oh yes i will. westbound traffic on the m four is still heavy between junctions four b and five, that's the stretch between the m twenty five and langley. and also westbound between junctions six and seven in the slough area is heavy. on the m twenty five clockwise the traffic is very heavy and slow moving from junction thirteen for staines as far as junction eighteen for chorleywood, that's due to earlier accidents and the volume of traffic. on the m four at swindon, that's eastbound between junctions sixteen and fifteen, tailbacks are now easing following an earlier chemical spillage which has since been cleared. over on the a four two three, the banbury to oxford road, that's between langford lane, kidlington, and the shipton-on-cherwell turn off, there's some resurfacing work taking place with temporary traffic lights and some traffic being diverting. that's likely to cause some delays to your journey if you're travelling along that way. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. british rail tell us that the banbury to paddington train, which was due to arrive at oxford at three minutes past seven, has been cancelled this evening, but i've nothing disadvantageous to report to you from the buses. still to come, conservatives on oxfordshire county council say there won't need to be cuts in services to stay within next year's government budget estimate. first, with a round-up of the day's local news, here's paul kirby. police say they are increasingly concerned for the safety of a cowley teenager who's been missing from home for nearly two months wasem salim katana who's fifteen, was last seen in a taxi on the twelfth of september. he's described as five foot five, well built and his head shaved into a short back and sides. he was carrying a brown leather suitcase. sergeant david whittaker of cowley police says wasem's family are anxious for him to call home. they are obviously extremely concerned about him, concerned for his safety, and again they'd really like to get in touch with him or him to make contact with the family or the police. police in wiltshire are urgently appealing to motorists who drove past a chemical spillage on the m four near swindon to immediately consult their doctors. it's feared they may be at risk of suffering the effects of exposure to a toxic chemical involved in an accident between junctions fifteen and sixteen of the motorway earlier today. reporting from swindon, here's richard bellamy. emergency services were called to the m four when a fifty kilogram container of calcium hypochloride split open during peak hour traffic. the powdery bleaching agent was spread across both carriageways in the form of a huge cloud caused by the movement of traffic and the wind. fire crews attending the incident were unable to get to the scene before the cloud developed, due to the five mile contraflow. police and medical advisers are urging anyone caught in the cloud to consult their doctors as the chemicals can cause severe irritation to the eyes and throat. oxford magistrates have started issuing liability orders against people summonsed to appear before two special courts this afternoon for not paying their poll tax. there have been no repeats of the legal problems which disrupted the hearings yesterday when magistrates declared council authorized documents illegitimate. a women's centre in east oxford is facing financial difficulties today because its source of funding has been withdrawn. a number of women used the centre on the cowley road, which is an oxford city council owned building. as of today, their grant of four thousand pounds has been withdrawn. punget kore says in a meeting with labour councillors next week the centre's organisers hope to win themselves a reprieve. it's important to renew the funding, because if we don't have any funding the women's centre's going to close. the women centre has served a vital need for the community over the last six or seven years, and if it closes down all that work is basically gone and all the support that we've build up has gone, because basically there'll be nowhere that women can go to socialise and to find out what's going on in oxford. traders in east oxford are urging councillors to back a move to replace a controversial traffic scheme. flowerbed obstacles were installed several months ago in both magdalen road and howard street, but have won few friends. most claim the restrictions have actually caused traffic using the roads to speed up. fox f m news, paul kirby reporting. you're listening to the fox report. conservatives on oxfordshire county council have dismissed claims that there'll have to be major cuts in services if it has to stick to government budget estimates. the budget, of course, also has a major bearing on the level of next year's poll tax bills. the environment secretary, chris patten, has set a figure of just below three hundred million pounds as his own suggestion of what the council should be spending next year, but that falls well below the figures calculated by the ruling labour and democrat coalition. however, tory group leader, david walden, thinks mr patten's statistics are workable. there will be one or two at the margins where we have to look at our priorities and one or two of them will have to be reassessed. and as usual we believe that the council can deliver its services in a different way, that is by pushing local financial management for schools, competitive tendering in the — there are savings in administration there. and in that figure i've just given you we have allowed for extra provision in some cases like for the national curriculum in the education sector, additional spending for under fives and taking on board the requirements in social services for care in the community and the children's bill, although those have been, of course— the care in the community proposals have now been delayed and they are being phased in over three years. so, whilst the council at its present level of spending under its present control, which is not ours, will have to make savings in expenditure, it is our belief it can be done without detriment to services. is there anything to make you believe that poll tax bills landing on people's mats this time next year will be any nearer the estimate than they were last time. well we believe that they could be at or below the three hundred and seventy eight pounds. i mean we have done some rough calculations on what we think the average charge for the county will be, but there are still some unknown factors relative to district council spending for instance, and it is our believe that we can get below the three hundred and seventy eight pounds. would you say that any district council who couldn't do that is irresponsible, as he has suggested himself? i would say that they ought to be able to spend at a level which is within the s s as that have been given both for the county and for the districts, and therefore we should be below the three hundred and seventy eight. i hesitate to use adjectives as to what they would be like if they didn't spend at that level, but we believe it is possible for them to do so and there is something wrong with their spending levels if they don't do it. you're listening to the fox report. it's seventeen minutes past six. an official of the archbishop of canterbury is attacking the government for refusing to talk to syria about british hostages in lebanon. britain broke off diplomatic relations with the syrians four years ago after allegations that they'd been involved in trying to below up and israeli airliner. the church official, john little, says the syrians have behaved a lot better since then. the archbishop, who has throughout er the last er three and a half years or more, since terry waite was kidnapped, he and the hostage families have stayed very much in touch with each other and they have supported each other and he agrees with them now that the government, on this particular question, is wrong. what is it that you think the government should be doing? well er the first thing er on this question is that on monday of last week at the meeting of the foreign ministers of the european community in luxembourg, the british government proposed the removal of the european community sanctions against china, vietnam and iran and the maintenance of the community's actions against syria. and that struck us and the families of the hostages as a quite extraordinary thing to do. syria has a very significant role now to play and we ought not to be seeking ways of annoying them. we ought to be seeking to build on the quite hopeful developments, in the greater beirut area anyway, over the last few days, but instead we appear to be getting even more dog in the manger in our attitude towards syria. you're listening to the fox report. cowley police are to step up their numbers on the blackbird leys estate in oxford after a recent rise in crime in the area. the estate, which has become notorious for high speed races involving stolen cars, and recently attacks on police officers, means that they er will sending increasing numbers of police there. in recent incidents, a youths stamped on a w p c's head as she tried to arrest them, and earlier this week an officer was injured when he and a colleague were attacked by a gang. chief inspector, robin harrier, says the increase in crime means they must take more action. we will be putting officers in there, extra officers, to try and stop the stolen cars and the joy riding. it's not just because we've had police officers injured — we've had extra officers in their all the time, but we're going to step that up now. doesn't it worry you that you haven't been able really to make an efficient crackdown here and your officers are still suffering attacks? yes, it does. the stolen cars have been occurring now over the last year. we increased our manpower in there approximately three months ago and we reduced most of the joyriding. we then had to scale down our operations, and as a result the joyriders are back again, so again we have got to step up our operation. but obviously the answer is not to keep stepping up your operation because there's a limit to your manpower. do you have any other ideas? that's right. what we do need is the co-operation of the residents, and i must say that we are beginning to get the co-operation now and in fact many people did phone in after the last incident when the officers were assaulted, first of all asking for the condition of the officers and showing concern, and secondly giving us information. there's still probably a lot more people thought who saw things out there, and we'd still like them to contact us at cowley if they've any information as to who the offenders are. you're listening to the fox report. it's twenty one minutes past six. on one o two point six f m, this is the fox report with jane markham. it's six twenty four. the children's charity, barnardos, says that poverty in britain is so bad that parents are going hungry so that the children can eat. a survey by barnardos paints a picture of families running out of food by the weekend and of youngsters who can't go to school because they've no shoes. child care director, mike jarmon, says the findings are deeply disturbing. we found a number of things. in a major way we found people who simply haven't enough to eat. there's the lack of food. we find children who are being kept off school because they haven't got shoes to wear. we find that parents are going hungry in order to leave food for their children. they are nineteenth century images of poverty, and they are in britain today in nineteen ninety. why is that happening, because we like to assume in this country that we have enough safety nets to catch those people, to ensure while they may not live in the lap of luxury at least they don't have to go without. well the level of benefit is simply not high enough to cope with the needs of living today. ordinary household expenditure, household goods, the level of food and so on. parents find it extremely difficult to provide even the basic necessities for life today, and certainly when you begin to think of the sort of things that most children in this country have on a day-to-day basis — an ice cream, a trip to the swimming baths and so on— these families don't er it's a major crisis to provide for example sixty pence as entry to a swimming pool. now are these families where the main breadwinner, or where there is a one parent family, is out of work? or are they people that are in work but even their salaries are not enough to cope? well it's both. it's er in the report that we produced, most of the families are in fact single parent families, most of them are on social security benefits and have been on for considerable periods of time, but there are a number of people who are in employment or who have had periods of employment, but they are in low paid jobs, so when you're talking about an income of one hundred pounds a week, with the sort of housing costs there are and other costs, then there simply isn't enough money to go round. you're listening to the fox report. from today, people parking their cars at the john radcliffe hospital in oxford will have to pay and display. the move has been condemned by councillors for the labour party and conservatives. council leader, phyllis starkey, and conservative group leader, janet todd, have written to the unit general manager of the john radcliffe, tony stapleton, asking him to withdraw the charge, but hospital officials say they are introducing fees following a survey of people using the hospital, which showed that seventy percent of them were in favour of it. project development manager, richard summley, says the council has been very slow in reacting and he denies a claim that disabled patients will also be hit by the fees. i haven't heard anything from the city council other than two days before the scheme was to be introduced. we have given them details. they've had them for two months. we've heard nothing until two days before it starts. she's saying we're charging disabled — i don't know where she gets her information from. it's not the case. we won't be charging the disabled. if you have an orange badge and you wish to park on the john radcliffe hospital site, you can park free of charge just as you would in one of the council's car parks park free of charge. but nevertheless, you are charging patients, often people who are in a great hurry bringing their own patients in, who really probably haven't got any time for that sort of thing. wouldn't you agree? er if it's an emergency case — if you were bringing in a sick relative who you were wishing to have admitted to our accident and emergency department, you can park your car right outside the front door and bring your relative in. we wouldn't penalise anybody who's in an emergency situation at all. another problem is relatives to come to see relatives who are having operations here. often they will have to spend hours with the relatives. that will make it an expensive operation for them, won't it? in cases where we can identify people who would be penalized more than the usual sort of fifty pence charge. nursing staff on some of those areas that we would pick out — those would be the intensive care units, the children's units, the delivery suites and special care baby units — the nursing staff actually have control of permits which they can issue to relatives who are going to be here for a great length of time, and if they so feel that these relatives shouldn't be charged, they give them a permit and they park in a staff area at no charge whatsoever. you're listening to the fox report. and news just in — forty postal workers have returned to normal working tonight after talks with post office management. the staff from the abingdon sorting office had been due to resume their duties this afternoon at the end of the county-wide dispute, but the workers there refused to go back after part of an agreement with managers was altered. further negotiations have been taking place and a short while ago the abingdon staff began clearing the six day backlog. you're listening to the fox report. doctors are racing against time to try to save the life of a former nurse from south oxfordshire who desperately needs a lung transplant. fifty year old manuela sanchez from cholsey near wallingford is in a critical but stable position at the harefield hospital, while doctors scour the continent for a suitable donor organ. manuela, or manola as most of her friends know her, was forced to give up here job at cholsey's fairmile hospital after twenty two years there because of a painful lung disease. former colleagues, frank plazas and john leeas , who are still nurses at the hospital say they are very concerned for her. we seem to have some problem with that report. proposals to ease traffic congestion at one of the region's notorious blackspots will go on display to the public later today. the department of transport has come up with two alternative by-pass routes as the best way of relieving the heavy traffic using the a forty green road roundabout junction at headington. however, local residents of barton and sandhills say the scheme is unnecessary and too costly. david stern from friends of bayswater greenbelt can't understand why the scheme is needed in the addition to the soon-to-be-opened m forty. it will be possible to divert the a forty traffic away from the green road roundabout along the m forty extension out to wendlebury and then back down the new dual carriageway a forty three to rejoin the a forty near to pear tree, and that can be done from january ninety ninety one without waiting another seven or eight years for a barton by-pass. but surely the department of transport would have looked into this? we don't know what the department of transport have done because they refuse to tell us. they refuse to tell the public what investigations they have and haven't carried out. what we do know is that they simply say it's too far round er the diversion in distance terms is too long. well we don't accept that. it's a question of whose point of view it's too far round from. as far as the people living in this area are concerned, it would be very valuable to have the traffic diverted as from next january. as far as the users are concerned, it is a diversion of an extra ten miles on their journey. it rather depends what journeys they are doing. if they are doing purely local journeys, then that may be too much and they may prefer to use the oxford ringroad, but if they are doing long-distance journeys ten miles is not a very significant addition to their journey in length and the congestion on the oxford ringroad is such that it may actually be shorter in time terms to go the longer way round in distance. how determined are you to make the department of transport see your point of view? well, we're doing everything we can to bring it home to them. we've been in correspondence with them, with the county council, with mps and with everybody who are interested. we are now encouraging the public to let the department of transport know what they feel. our view is that the department is trying to do everything it can to avoid a proper consultation on this issue. it is just asking the public to sign up for a barton by-pass. we want the public to have the full range of options brought out in the open, discussed and be able to make a real choice. you're listening to the fox report. it's six thirty one. westbound traffic on the m four is very heavy between junctions four b and seven, that's the stretch between the m twenty five and slough. on the m twenty five, clockwise traffic's very heavy and slow moving, from junction thirteen for staines as far as junction eighteen for chorleywood, and also anti-clockwise traffic is slow at junction seventeen, that's mablecross. over on the m forty er the nearside lane is closed eastbound between junctions one and two, that's between the a forty and the a three five five, but doesn't seem to be causing any serious problems this evening. and on the a four two three, the banbury to oxford road, that's between langford lane, kidlington, and the shipton-on-cherwell turnoff, there's some resurfacing work using temporary traffic lights and some diversions for south bound traffic. that's also likely to delay you on your journey this evening. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. british rail tell us that the three minutes past seven train, due into oxford at three minutes past seven that is, that travels from banbury to paddington, has been cancelled this evening. nothing to report, though, on the buses. on one o two point six f m, this is the fox report with jane markham. it's six thirty four. forty postal workers have returned to normal working tonight after talks with the post office management. the staff from the abingdon sorting office had been due to resume their duties this afternoon at the end of the county-wide dispute, but the workers refused to go back after part of an agreement with managers was altered. further negotiations have taken place and just a short while ago the abingdon staff began clearing the six-day. britain has protested about the proposed visit to baghdad of former west german chancellor, willy brandt, to try to secure the release of hostages. foreign secretary, douglas hurd, has told the germans and the italians the initiative breaks an agreement reached by common market leaders. radical changes in the divorce laws in england and wales are almost certain to be adopted by the government. the law commission has recommended an end to quickie divorces and more effort to save marriages from break up. the weather — a few showers are possible this evening and tonight, with some patchy cloud. however, many places will become dry with clear periods, allowing the temperature to fall right the way down to two degrees celsius, that's thirty six degrees fahrenheit, leading to a ground frost and patchy fog. the fox report on one o two point six. still to come, a challenge to plant four thousand trees in oxford in one day, plus the day's sports and financial news, but first, though, we return to the story we tried to bring you earlier. doctors are racing against time to save the life of a former nurse from south oxfordshire who desperately needs a lung transplant. fifty year old manuela sanchez from cholsey near wallingford is in a critical but stable condition at the harefield hospital, and doctors are scouring the continent for a suitable donor organ. manuela, who is known as manola to most of her friends, had to give up her job at cholsey's fairmile hospital after twenty two years there because of the painful lung disease. former colleagues frank plazas and john leeas , who are still nurses at the hospital, are very concerned for her. we still have problems bringing you that report. we'll try and bring it to you later in the programme. the world seems to be getting smaller as more and more people realize that what happens in one country can affect others. the chernobyl disaster sent radioactive fall-out across the northern hemisphere and scientists fear that the destruction of the rain forests have implications for the world's climate. now ecospan have produced a new book. half the world is living in poverty, while the other half is over-consuming they say. miles lipvinoff from the green party has just published the earth scan handbook for people and the planet. i asked him if the fundamental problem is that those who have are too selfish to help. i think it's debatable how selfish people really are, particularly when they see that their are short-term selfishness may in fact create long-term problems for themselves, for their children, for their grandchildren, for er other generations and other peoples, and really as i can see it the green message is one of enlightened self-interest. we all want basic comforts, but there are intelligent ways of producing these comforts and intelligent limits to impose on oneself in order not to foul the nest for everybody else. how do you solve the poverty cycle of the developing world? well, my feeling is, and it's really the same message that you get from most greens and most environment books, is that under-consumption, that is poverty in the poor countries, is linked to over-consumption in the rich countries, and we have to grasp this nettle — it's one that the conservative party in its white paper on the environment avoids noticeably — we have to grasp the nettle, that as long as we are over-consuming there's not going to be enough to go round everywhere, and my book shows that this pattern is really a three hundred year old pattern dating from the first colonial expansion of europe and the slave trade, and it's still going on today. the multi-national corporations, the world bank and the international monetary fund are prolonging the process still today, and individuals have to, i believe, look at their own patterns of consumption and look at the way society in general works and work towards reducing levels of consumption in the rich countries so that we are more able to help the poor countries help themselves. when you say consumption, are you talking about absolutely everything that we have in our homes and eat and well, no, i mean er you have to look at particular areas. for example, in terms of food, cattle that we eat; we eat meat in the rich countries, these are fed on grains that are fit for human consumption that are produced, for example in central and south america, soya meal and so on . it's one of the most inefficient ways to produce food; for every pound of animal grain that goes into an animal, we get far less in terms of meat. so that's one example. by switching to a less meat based diet, we can actually help to reduce the wastage worldwide. transport is another example. by using public transport, cycling and walking and so on, we are actually wasting far less of the world's oil and all the other resources used to make cars. so this can be applied everywhere. we will still have decent food; we will probably have better food. we'll have better cities; less polluted by private transport and so on. energy conservation in our homes is another way that the world's huge waste of commercial energy can be reduced without actually producing discomfort for anybody. you're listening to the fox report. the british trust for conservation volunteers is going for another plant-in on land adjacent to port meadow in oxford. last year three thousand five hundred trees were planted. this year they're going to go for four thousand. marilyn atkins is from the b t c v. marilyn, it's a huge great job. how are you going to organise four thousand trees being planted? well we're asking people to enter in teams of four to come and plant as many trees a they can in the space of an hour. so we'll have groups of teams coming along for an hour at a time and hopefully we'll, you know, keep the impetus going through the day by doing that. it sounds absolutely exhausting. how many trees do you reckon a team of four can actually plant in an hour? well, we're getting them to go for a hundred, which sounds a lot, but the ground's quite variable so, you know, some of it is really good planting land and some of it isn't, so, you know, it'll be up to the teams to go for as many as they can. i suppose you're hoping for good digging weather because you have to dig a fairly big hole to put a tree in it, don't you? yes, you have to dig down as far as you can to get the roots in properly but, you know, it should be just the depth of one spade, so most people ought to be able to dig a hole that size. what sort of trees are going to be planted? we're putting in native broad leaves, such as oak, ash, holly, field maple. now i mentioned that three and a half thousand trees were planted in the same area last year wasn't it? that's right, yes. how are those trees getting on? most of them are fine actually. the one's that the volunteers planted are thriving quite well. because we had a very dry summer and that's not, as far as i understand, very good for young trees. no, it's not, no, but they seem to be bearing up quite well considering the conditions. it's an awful lot of trees already there and you're going to add another four thousand, it's going to be a big area. how, what sort of area's going to be covered in the end? there's going to be a seventy acre community nature park eventually, so that's quite an area to cover, but it's not going to be all trees — it's going to be some open glades for butterflies and so on, so there should be a nice variation there. it's a very big er big er project. is this the last tree, annual tree planting in that area, or will there be more to do next year? i should think there'll be more to do next year, because, you know, four thousand trees sounds like a lot, but in fact there's thousands upon thousands. there's already twelve thousand in there, so there's more to come. you mentioned that they were oaks and ash and broad leaved trees. they are quite slow growing, aren't they? how long will we have to wait before you actually start to see it as a woodland roughly? probably quite a while. at least ten years i'd say. but then we are planning for the future, so that's the sort of thing you have to do. thank you very much. on one o two point six f m, this is the fox report with jane markham. still to come; what's really inside the great british banger? the financial report with halpern and woolfe keeping oxfordshire in business. following yesterday's revival in fortunes, the london share market was in a despondent mood as the treasury deflated hopes of early interest rate cuts. the market, once again, became preoccupied with gulf fears and rising oil prices. early falls on wall street offered london no encouragement, and by the close the footsie one hundred was down twenty two point three at two o two eight. on the foreign exchanges, the pound gained fractionally on the dollar, closing at one dollar point nine four seven o. however, talk of raising german interest rates saw sterling weaken against the mark and it closed down over one ffenning at two deutsche marks point nine three six o. today's shares — abbey national down two and two one oh, british aerospace down eight at five three eight, british airways down one at one four one, british gas up one to two one five point five. british telecom went down three point five to two five nine point five, the goodhead publishing group stayed at forty three. metal box went down thirteen to one o seven five. morland brewers unchanged at two six three. oxford instruments stayed at two two six. thames water down three at two thirty. t s b down four point five at one two five. and today's major movers — benjamin priest up twenty two to one one one and bass down twenty eight to nine nine five. you're listening to the fox report. it's a quarter to seven. sport now, and starting with today's main local story, hans nielsen will once again captain the skull oxford cheetas, who are supported by fox f m. contracts were agreed today, less than a week after oxford's last race this term, which was in sharp contrast to this season when problems arose with the days of the opening of the nineteen ninety season. nielsen says, after initial talks yesterday, it was a relief to get everything sorted out i went down to have a word with the promotion yesterday and er we have er come to terms and er we are all ready to go for next year. i must say straight away this is a much better arrangement than last year. well absolutely, i mean we've got together a little earlier this year to make sure we didn't have the same problem as last year, and obviously that's a good thing to get all the problems out of the way so early and so we can all plan ahead for next year without facing any problems that, you know, just before the season starts like we did this year, so altogether a good thing, yes. you're listening to the fox report. it's nice to have good news about speedway at the moment and nielsen's a bit of a favourite, isn't he, with the crowds? it's the perfect gin and tonic to the new season, even though we're months away. i mean hans lost his world crown this term, but he's still the best. he had mechanical problems. he'll come back next year with a vengeance and so will the skull oxford cheetahs. the pressure — it'll be off them, they are no longer champions — but let's remember they did finish in fourth place and i've got a feeling that they're not giving anything away at oxford speedway, because they never do. there's going to be a few new faces next term. i might be wrong, but i don't think so, but i have to sit on the fence you see as i get into trouble. yes, you always do . it wasn't, it wasn't a bad end to the season after the way thing seemed to be going in the middle, but what do you reckon — are you going to predict that hans nielsen will be world champion again next year? i think so. he can be world champion for the next three years, so long as we don't have to do it at bradford because that's an awful track. i mean the bradford dukes always win at bradford because i've heard on the grapevine, not from me, that they've got little bumps round the bends and they fill them in and only the bradford riders know whereabouts they are, so they skirt round them. i think it's a disgrace, but that's speedway. that's why speedway is magic because i don't know what's going on. it's absolutely fascinating and also, let's face it, we've got good news to talk about from oxford united as well tonight. that was brilliant news, wasn't it? i never doubted it for a minute, jane, never. i told the whole news team yesterday, william, paul, lucy, gorgeous, abby, alex, and you yourself, oxford will win. i predicted two nil and my word they left it late, jane, i couldn't believe it. i thought ‘oh no, not all the way back to the east end of london and risk my car being smashed to bits’, but there was jim and paul simpson on the left, dazzling, running rings around those irons . their defence was appalling. yes, they had injuries, but so everybody does. pulled the ball across and there was jim , but we have done west ham a favour, jane. do you know what it is? no, i'll ask you. what's the favour that we've done west ham,? we beat them, so now they can concentrate on the league and not worry about the cup and risk more injuries, because what they want to do most of all is get back in division one and as a soon as they do that they'll drop back down again, because they're not that good really. what are you doing tonight? tonight? absolutely nothing, jane. i thought, you know, nothing's happening locally, so i'm going off down to the pub for a noggin,noggin a lert . do you mean we've let you off for the evening? why not? it's the firs time in ages. i'm going to enjoy myself tonight. no, mind you, no, no, i must tell the truth, i enjoy myself when i'm watching the oxford university, or whatever it is, unless it's banbury united — oh, no, didn't mean it. i must stop taking the mickey out of banbury united. i think you'd better, mickey. i love them really. i think they're fantastic, even though they're not going to go up this season. i think we're going to send you home now. you're listening to the fox report. the british banger has taken a bit of a grilling today. researchers from which magazine scoffed dozens of the things. instead of meat they found fat, rind and gristle they tell us. the government, though, is battling to save the sausages' skin. it's a subject mark phillips has been getting his teeth into. according the consumers' association, the supposedly great british banger has a lot to answer for. under its skin, instead of succulent cuts of prime meat you're much more likely to get all sorts of other things instead. the deputy editor of which, judith gubby, although she's not a banger fan herself, munched her way through two dozen different varieties, says you'd be amazed at what's inside. quite a lot of them didn't have all that much meat in them, which is not surprising, because they don't actually have to have all that much meat, which we thought was quite amazing. only about a third of them has to be what you'd really call meat, and quite a lot of them had an enormous amount of fat in them. by comparison they might be, say, a quarter fat, a quarter meat and a quarter rusk and water and so forth. not very appetizing. none of this comes as much surprise to sausage supremo bill o'hagan. he runs his own sausage shop, with more than fifty different home-made varieties, at greenwich in south london. just recently mps are saying ‘over our dead bodies, we'll never change the character of the english sausage’. it's absolute bloody nonsense, because they are rubbish. nearly every sausage, i mean there are odd exceptions, are made from ends. so, as far as our saussies go, two things are clear. one if you want the best when you pig out you have to pay for them, and two they are not always as meaty as they might appear. you're listening to the fox report. it's nine minutes to seven. westbound traffic on the m four is still heavy between junctions four b and junction seven, that's the stretch between the m twenty five and slough. the m twenty five clockwise very heavy and slow moving from junctions thirteen for staines to junction eighteen, that's the turn off for chorleywood. and it's also heavy anti-clockwise at junction seventeen, which is the turn off for mablecross. on the m forty, between junctions one and two, the nearside lane is closed eastbound, that's between the a forty and the a three five five, but there don't appear to be any serious problems there this evening. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. the only problem i have to tell you about is the cancellation of the banbury to paddington train that was due to arrive at oxford at three minutes past seven. on one o two point six f m, this is the fox report with jane markham. the villages of oxfordshire have come under the microscope of the women's institute in the new oxfordshire village book. it's been published to coincide with the w i's seventy fifth anniversary, and joyce milward is a former chairman of the oxfordshire federation of women's institutes and has been deeply involved, not only with this book, but with the previous — not exactly the old oxfordshire village book, but the previous versions of it. what has been your involvement, joyce? well, i have done the photography for the front cover and er of this particular book, but countryside books, who are the publishers, were asked a number of years ago to republish the old berkshire village book and that has started a whole series of countryside village books, which now cover, i think, about thirty five different counties. now it's a lovely book oxfordshire is the latest one. it's brilliant. it's lovely book. it is, yes. how, i mean, is it just each village that has a women's institute? have they contributed their own piece? how's it been no, no, it's not only their own er we have got er entries from w i members of other villages, but mainly its from the members who live in the villages and of course that is the beauty of the book, where it differs from the normal travel book, it's the story of villages by people who actually live in them. they definitely have a local flavour some of the little entries. yes, they do. there's lots of little titbits in that you wouldn't find in any other book. do you have a favourite, or are you well i haven't got through it yet. uhm, no, i er i've sort of started off and i've got so far down and er i love the drawing that freda rudman from stanford-in-the-vale has done of their village, and er and of course i like the harwell entry, which is my own village, but there's certainly some very nice entries in, some very good entries in. very interesting to people who live outside the county. yes, and certainly people who live inside it, because the book's been sitting on my desk all week and i can see it's been opened at places where people are either living or they know people living. that's right. it's quite, it's quite authoritative in a way because it is written by local people. yes, that's right. and is it available throughout the country? yes, it's available in bookshops. it's available from our county headquarters, which is in middle way, and of course if you're a w i member you immediately get a pound off it, off the face price of seven ninety-five, which is a very modest price for a very prestigious book. nice little plug there, joyce . now, last weekend's cycle ride down the new section of the m forty once looked threatened by being blown away as the met office warned of impending storms, but in fact the sun shone down on the riders and today,less than a week the counting is done and mike biddolph from oxfordshire county council, who also took part in the event, has come up with the grand total of — how much have you raised mike? twenty three thousand five hundred pounds, we expect. i mean we've counted the pledges, but we haven't counted the money yet, so we're glad the post is getting back to normal soon because that'll start it flowing in. continue to jog people's memory to actually get collecting and get sending it to you. yes, they've got a week or two to get it together and send it in, but we know from what people have pledged that that's what we can expect at least, and that's from over a thousand cyclists ranging from, i saw one child in a seat behind their parents on a bike, up to an eighty nine year old lady from brill who cycled for the first time in years and really enjoyed it. i suppose it's reasonably flat, so it's quite a good place for a beginner. it's a bit more interesting than that. it was up and down and around corners a bit, and it was a nice ride and er and er views of oxfordshire that nobody has seen before the road came, and you won't have that amount of time to look at them ever again, because you'll be doing seventy instead of seven miles an hour. now twenty three thousand plus pounds is a huge amount of money. did you expect to be raising that sort of money? well, we hoped to do well, but er that definitely exceeds our best hopes. that's going to go er it was jointly organised by the county council with oxfam and the local rotary club at thame — the money will go to local charities that thame rotary choose and also to particularly one project in zimbabwe of oxfam's, a health project and a large part of that money will actually buy more bikes for the health workers to use to do their work. and you actually rode this route yourself. was it a good day out? yes, i managed some of it. it was a very nice day out actually, and everything from serious riders who just went up and down and the most energetic one did a hundred miles, to families who treated it, took a picnic and stopped and looked at the badger tunnels. oh well, and a little jog of the memories to people who are out there collecting their donations in, or people who have promised money — get that money in and get it off to er well to you i suppose, mike. to oxfam. to the local area office of oxfam. yes. now the local headlines from today's local papers. the abingdon herald led on village anger at a chemical firms plans. that's families in marcham who have registered a protest against the expansion of an american-owned firm and the wantage and grove herald reports on a new approach to car parking problems in wantage itself. and that was the fox report for thursday november the first, nineteen ninety. join me tomorrow with another fox report. i'll be here at six o'clock. steve priestley's here with the red fox after the news. mr mcgregor says he'll be sorry to leave his old job where he's presided over the education reforms. i've had tremendous support in carrying them through, and had there not been this unforeseen event, i would certainly have been expecting to, and looking forward to, carrying on doing that for quite a considerable time, but i am sure that kenneth clarke will carry the same reforms forward with equal gusto. iraqi troops and tanks are tonight ready for war. they are doving around kuwait with a ring of minefields to protect them. the new tactic means their tanks would not only be hard to hit, but british and american tanks would find it virtually impossible to get through the minefields. here's i r n's defence correspondent, paul morris. in the last week the strategic balance in the gulf has changed. intelligence reports from the united states and britain showed an almost impregnable defensive line along the kuwaiti border. the fifteen foot high tank traps and minefields now make an all-out frontal attack almost impossible. at the same time, the three thousand five hundred tanks and three hundred and ninety thousand iraqi troops have dug into defensive positions which make them difficult to knock out, even with the sophistication of british and united states ground attack bombers. security forces in northern ireland are hunting a woman in black who set up a u d r soldier for murder at the garage where he worked. the killing, in cookstown, county tyrone, comes a week after the i r a vowed revenge for the murder of the sien fein activists in the town. this report from julian o'neill. forty two year old decorated u d r veteran, albert cooper, was set up by a woman who left a booby-trapped car at this garage for repairs. mid-ulster m p, the reverend william mccrae, is horrified. i think what is so degrading is that er women who under god can bring forth life can actually produce death in this place. two years ago the sergeant major returned fire on i r a gunmen who ambushed him. julian o'neill, i r n, belfast. iran has re-opened its embassy in britain, eighteen months after links were severed when ayatollah khomeni issued a death threat on salman rushdie. families of british hostages held in beirut hope that the new era of co-operation will help win freedom for their loved ones. esso and shell are putting four and a half pence on a gallon of petrol from monday. the rises will bring the price of four star up to two pounds twenty two point three pence. moscow's radical city council is getting ready to embarrass the kremlin at its revolution day celebration next week. it's staging its own marches to counter the official demonstration and it's changing some street names back to what they were before the revolution. this report from sue jameson. the timing is not co-incidental. as the war of words over november the seventh heats up,is changing the names of forty streets and metro stations back to their pre-revolutionary titles, just hours before the tanks rolled through red square for the traditional revolution day parade. out go karl marx, k g b chief djinsky , and composer tchaikovsky. in come general de gaulle, martin luther king, plus the old traditional names. moscow authorities are making it quite clear they'll decide who does what in the city and not the kremlin. sue jameson, i r n, moscow. independent radio news. on one o two point six f m, this is the fox report with jane markham. it's friday, november the second, nineteen ninety. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. the education secretary, john mcgregor, has been appointed as sir geoffrey howe's successor as leader of the commons. kenneth clarke will become education secretary and william waldegrade, currently minister of state at the foreign office, will get the job of health secretary. but re-shuffle or not, britain's euro-commissioner, sir leon brittain, says there must be a major overhaul of the government's attitude to europe. he's sad, though, that sir geoffrey has quit. very sad that he should no longer be a member of the government, because he contributed so much to it. he was the founder, in many ways, of the thinking behind the present government. he had an outstanding career as chancellor and he was deeply respected as foreign secretary. it's a great loss. so did the resignation surprise you? i wasn't altogether surprised, because it was becoming clear that there were differences, nuances if you will, within the government about the handling of european issues. how important, though, to you think the resignation is in terms of the survival of mrs. thatcher and the government? well that's not something on which i would wish to comment on. as a conservative i naturally want the government to survive and to win the next election, but plainly if the deputy prime minister resigns that is something which gives cause for readjustment and rethinking if the government is to win the next election. do you see mrs. thatcher's fairly intransigent stance over europe now — is that isolated more within the tory party? well you're using adjectives and i'm more concerned about the issues. what's important is that britain should adopt a positive role in the negotiations, very difficult negotiations, that lie ahead, and that britain should not be isolated and that britain should, in fact, be able to find a way forward with its partners. i don't think that's impossible, and i've suggested one or two ways in which it could be done. so do you think there's got to be a c change in the way that mrs. thatcher approaches european issues. it's not a question of a c change on the part of anyone, it's a question of doing the right thing for the future. i think the opportunity is still there. you're listening to the fox report. labour's higher education spokesman and oxford east's m p, andrew smith, has greeted the cabinet reshuffle, saying the conservatives are currently running around like headless chickens. he says it's a shame john mcgregor had to go from his post as education secretary. it's clear that the prime minister is worried, as so she should be, over the government's poor performance in education. but you see, like a poker player who's losing, i don't think shuffling the pack around is going to help her. it's not as though what kenneth clarke has done in the health service has actually done any good for our hospitals and medical services, and i don't believe that he has anything to offer education either. in fact, there is a sense in which john mcgregor, whilst under enormous pressure from the tory right wing, was at least trying to listen to what people in education were saying. do you not think that mr clarke can continue the success of john mcgregor? well there hasn't been any success under john mcgregor. as i have said, he started to make a try at listening, but all the evidence is that the public is very deeply worried at standards in our schools and at the under resourcing of education, crumbling schools, lack of books and, frankly, the very low morale of very many teachers. and what they see the conservatives coming forward with are harebrained schemes for vouchers, a handful of city technology colleges, and pushing opting out. all of these are a total irrelevance to the concern of most parents and the needs of the educational system. you're listening to the fox report. it's eight minutes past six. the foreign secretary and witney's m p, douglas hurd, says there won't be a challenge to mrs. thatcher's leadership following sir geoffrey howe's resignation. he was speaking at gosford hill school in kidlington today. mr hurd said the government's policy on europe remains clear, and the party will stick by it under mrs. thatcher's leadership. he said although her style may be criticised the policies are good ones. but, he said, they may have to prove that to the electorate. policies explained and our determination about it is clear, er that carries oh ninety per cent of members of parliament on our side. as foreign secretary, after this news do you still feel mrs. thatcher's stand is the correct one? well the policy is not mrs. thatcher's policy, it's the policy on which we are all agreed on and which geoffrey howe helped to main. everybody has their own style and tone, and we don't all have to be clones one and another. she has her own tone and style and i've seen it very effective. do you feel you will have to mend fences now? well, there will be a certain amount of explanation that will have to be done, because geoffrey howe is a well known, well liked figure among many people that i deal with er but now, and for some time now, for a year now, it's i who have been dealing with them and i hope i've inherited some of the work and some of the trust which he helped to create. do you think now there will have to be a lot of morale building within the party? well, it's a continuous process, isn't it, if showing people that we have a clear policy on which the whole cabinet and almost the whole parliamentary party is agreed. you're listening to the fox report. it's ten minutes past six. i'm jane markham. the a thirty four still very congested. two miles north of chievely, the northbound carriageway between the m four at junction thirteen and the oxford ringroad there's a reported four to ten vehicle accident there close to the roadworks. major congestion is building and you are asked to avoid the area if you can. in berkshire, on the m four, junction eleven to junction twelve, the a thirty three and theale, it's roadworks causing a ten mile tailback there in both directions and police ask you to avoid that area. junction eleven to twelve, the a thirty three and theale there, they ask you to avoid the area. it's also very slow on the m twenty five in the area, anti-clockwise, junction twenty to nineteen, that's kingslangley and the a forty one, also sixteen to fifteen, the m forty and the m four, is very slow as well. the a four two three, kidlington to banbury road has major delays on it this evening, due to the temporary traffic lights near bunker's hill, and finally on the a four two one, just south of bicester, there are changes to the road layout at the new m forty interchange. mark rise, a a roadwatch. buses are running smoothly this evening, if somewhat slowly, but on the trains from paddington to oxford you'll find a delay of about twenty minutes this evening. the fox report on one o two point six. still to come, a local mother wants stricter rules on airguns after an accident involving her young daughter five months ago. five months on, seeing lisa with a plastic eye and seeing how she is, she gets so upset, i would like to have the law changed. with a look at the day's local news, here's william runcan. fire crews have been called to tackle a blaze tonight at house in oxford. smoke and flames were spotted shortly after a quarter to six at the house in girdlestone road, cowley. fire engulfed a ground floor bedroom. an ambulance crew is now at the scene, while firefighters with breathing apparatus search for anyone who may have been trapped inside. we'll bring you more on that story later. a report recommending improvements to elderly people's homes in oxfordshire has been made public this morning. a team of six inspectors compiled the reports from visits to homes over last three months, and from almost a thousand questionnaires. the study's thought to be the first of its kind in britain and shows a generally positive response to conditions in the county's fifteen council run homes. director of social services in oxfordshire, ian white, says most of the recommendations can be implemented with little cost, but expensive re-building must still be addressed. i'm sorry, we haven't that report, we'll try and bring that to you later. a motorcyclist has been taken to hospital in north oxfordshire tonight, following an accident on the a thirty four near enstone. it happened late this afternoon near the little chef restaurant and near the junction with the b four zero double two, charlbury to swerford road, where it's believed the motor cyclist collided with a car. it's expected he'll be taken to the horton general hospital in banbury. motorists travelling towards oxford on the a thirty four from the newbury area look likely to face delays following a multiple pile up. up to ten vehicles are thought to have collided about two miles north of the m four junction thirteen at chievely. finally, local trading standards officials in oxfordshire are urging parents to be on their guard against a children's chemistry set containing a potentially lethal substance. manufacturer, peter pan playthings, were find two thousand pounds by magistrates in hereford and worcester yesterday, following an incident where an eleven year old schoolgirl died after drinking a beaker containing copper sulphate used to make crystals. debbie dent from oxfordshire's trading standard's department says although the product's been withdrawn from sale in most shops, some of the sets marked ‘salter's science fun with crystals’ may have already been bought and put aside for christmas. in a hope situation it's not controlled. as with the girl who died earlier in the year, this beaker of solution was in her bedroom and she mistook it for a bedtime drink. now obviously if it's in a school laboratory it's under closely controlled supervised conditions and that's what we're concerned about. the contents of this kit are lethal. fox f m news, william runcan reporting. on one o two point six f m, this is the fox report with jane markham. it's a quarter past six. a north oxfordshire g p, who was on edward's heath recent mercy mission to iraq, says he's concerned for the health of hostages still held in the gulf as the tension in the region begins to mount. dr. david spackman from bloxham, who works in a surgery at sibford gower, was asked to go to iraq to give medical attention to the thirty eight hostages the former prime minister brought home. he said some of the hostages he saw were seriously ill and, with the threat of war increasing, he's concerned about those left behind. if the risks were not to great dr. spackman would go again. i think, at the time we went there wasn't any real risk of being held hostage ourselves. short of actually some sort of war breaking out or some an incident breaking out whilst we were on the ground, i suppose they might have actually apprehended us, but otherwise i think the chances of anything happening to the people, or ted heath, who were out there were very, very slim. there are rumours that war is imminent, so presumably it would be dangerous to go now? yes, i think, i mean, it varies from day to day, but as you say the rumours at the moment are that the is being upped a bit and i think it would be different. i think even a week after we've got back i think it's slightly more risky even now. how seriously ill were the thirty eight? they varied. there was, of the thirty eight, there were at least six who were ill. one of them had had a recent bypass, heart bypass operation. one had had a heart attack. two or three had other quite heart conditions and they were genuinely ill. two or three with cancer. some weren't desperately ill. two or three were just fairly old and frail and just the stress out there was getting to them and i suppose some had relatively minor but painful things, not life threatening, but just uncomfortable. have you reason to believe there are other people who are ill who are still out there? yes. from talking to them on the way home and talking to ted heath's g p, who we also had a long discussion with, without doubt there are other people there who obviously simply refuse to let come home, who are just as serious and, from the sound of it, one or two perhaps even more serious than the ones we did bring home. you mentioned people suffering from stress, presumably if there were an attack they would be more susceptible to stress then? without any doubt. i mean, one of the chaps we brought home had a er — he was only in his middle thirties and he had actually the stress of being held captive. i think he was in a munitions factory somewhere near baghdad and the stress had certainly precipitated quite a serious heart condition and that was under a relatively peaceful situation, so if there was any sign of war out there that would obviously be tenfold. you're listening to the fox report. it's seventeen minutes past six. oxford publishing millionaire, robert maxwell, is believed to be willing to make houses he's bought on the botley road available for homeless families. mr maxwell annoyed councillors when he bought the six properties at above market prices and them boarded them up. the council objected to the houses lying empty when the city has a severe housing shortage. the chairman of the city council's planning committee, john power, says he thinks mr maxwell's reasons aren't entirely public spirited. i did make the point that mr maxwell's company wants co-operation on the eastern edge of the city, vis-á-vis their football stadium, and we ought to have some co-operation on the western edge of the city where all these houses are boarded up and empty, bought at double the market value, and i made that point publicly. as i understand it, mr maxwell's company has approached the housing committee and said we are prepared to let these houses be used for homeless families, so it's a small but significant step in the right direction. do you believe it's going to happen then? well i'm led to believe it's going to happen because i've had — first of all the chair of the housing committee, valerie smith, has been approached by mr maxwell's company, secondly somebody purporting to represent mr maxwell's company has spoken to me indirectly, and thirty another representative of mr maxwell's company spoke to another councillor. so it seems it is going to happen. and how important would the benefit be? oh, well these are substantial houses and i would imagine that for the six houses we could get twelve families, twelve families housed immediately, they'd be substantial houses. so that would be twelve families out of bed and breakfast. that would be a substantial benefit in the city. have recent government changes to housing registration made the situation even more pressing? well they've made it absolutely much more pressing and this is just a drop in the ocean. but nevertheless in terms of twelve families that's very important to those twelve and it's a small step, but the problem is so big that it needs concerted government action to solve the problem of homeless people in oxford. so you're grateful to mr maxwell. oh no, i wouldn't say i was grateful to mr maxwell. i mean i think mr maxwell's on the end of a very nasty hook at the moment with these houses and he's wriggling off that and he's offered these houses to us to avoid public embarrassment to his company and also to gain co-operation from us and the city council in other areas. the fox report. it's six twenty two. the mother of a north oxfordshire girl who had to have her eye removed after an accident involving an airgun, is calling for a change in the gun laws. eleven year old lisa morley suffered a badly damaged eye in incident near grange school in banbury in may, after which police interviews a boy, who was also aged eleven. now lisa's mother, ann, wants the law to stop children that young handling air guns at all. robin powell reports. for an eleven year old schoolgirl, it's not easy coming to terms with having a plastic eye. lisa admits she finds it very upsetting. when i put my eye in i feel upset. do you wish it had never happened? yes. how do you feel about the accident? awful. i'd like the law changed. i am really pleased about my mum and dad helping me. do you think it's right that they should campaign for a change in the laws? yes. what makes things harder still for the morleys is the fact they still don't seem any nearer receiving compensation. but, says ann, it's not for want of trying. we tried for compensation and we've got tony baldry, who we're going to see saturday, and he's going to try and claim for us under the criminal injuries compensation act. so why haven't you had any so far? our solicitor is fighting for that, but we seem as though we're up against a brick wall at the moment, so we'll have to just wait and see. but just as satisfying as compensation for mrs. morley would be a change in the law. at the moment, even children under fourteen can use airguns on private land, though youngsters under seventeen must be accompanied by an adult on public land. ann morley says all that must change if something good is to come out of lisa's accident. five months on, seeing lisa with a plastic eye and seeing how she is, she gets so upset, i'd really like to have the law changed covering guns. we'd like a change in the law er for under fourteens really, to get guns locked away in cases in houses not so children can just go and pick them up. you're listening to the fox report. one of the west oxfordshire tory rebels, who was resigned from the tory group last february, has returned to the fold. neil owen, who's councillor for milton-under-wychwood, fifield and bruern, became an independent when the eighteen rebels resigned in protest over the government's level of community charge in west oxfordshire. he says he's rejoined the conservative group because west oxfordshire has managed to salvage four hundred thousand pounds from the government. i always intended to, but i wanted a reason or some credibility to go back with, so that our gesture wasn't completely fruitless or looked as if it had been a complete waste of time. it would seem that we now have four hundred thousand pounds available that wasn't apparent before, and that's come from the department of the environment, and that is enough for me to say well, we've got something out of it, it wasn't a fiasco or a waste of time and now i can rejoin the conservative group with some degree of credibility. but would you admit that it wasn't any doings of the tory group that brought that four hundred thousand pounds in? the reason that brought that four hundred thousand pounds stems from the tory revolt and the pressure by the group, the tories, the rebellious ones, on the government through our chief executive to fight our case, through a completely sir humphrey scenario, to get some more money and a better deal for west oxfordshire, and that's been achieve for some measure. it's a strange time to rejoin the tories. i don't think it is actually. no. we all know that the battle lines are being drawn for the next election. i want to step back into the line. when we took the step we did last may, we didn't desert the tory party, we rebelled against it and i for one said that i would go back in the fullness of time, i just hoped i could go back with something to show for it. the fox report. it's six twenty six. scientists working on the jet fusion project at culham in south oxfordshire have been protesting today in a bid to influence leading figures in the project as they met for the second day of their full council meeting. the british staff at culham were pointing out to the eminent scientists that they are paid less than their colleagues from fourteen other european countries working alongside them. union official, peter keeping, says it's unfair that british staff should get paid less than their foreign colleagues. they get typically twice or two and a half times the salaries that our people get and that's being going on for a very long time. in fact the members took it to a european court and spent a lot of their own money — twenty five thousand pounds — to try and get a discrimination judgement out of the european court, which failed at the last hurdle really, we think on political grounds really. it must be demoralising for workers to be working alongside people who are being paid twice for doing the same job. yes, that's true, but they are very dedicated people. that's the point. that's one of the reasons why they don't like doing this kind of thing that the did this morning, because they don't want to affect the project in any way, and i think the management takes advantage of that. so what do you want to see being done? well, we want to see our members, the u k employees, having the same opportunity to join the project on the same terms as people from the rest of europe and that's very appropriate this time when everybody's talking about europe, we think. do you think that's going to happen. um, i think it's still going to be a hard fight, but i think today we've shown the authority that we mean business. you're listening to the fox report. but press officer for jet, john maple, who belongs to the same union as mr keeping, says that there are statutory reasons why this morning's protest may have been in vain. it's very difficult for jet to do anything about it because the situation is that jet is bound by the statutes of the jet joint undertaking and this is a legal document setting down the conditions under which we work, which has been agreed by governments and the council of ministers, and essentially the situation is that there are two types of people employed in the jet team. there are the british people, who are members of the united kingdom atomic energy authority and there are the other non-members of the british team who are employed by euroaton , the european community , and there are different conditions of service for each of these and that's where the problems arise. you're listening to the fox report. it's six twenty eight. still major problems on the a thirty four northbound, between the m four and junction thirteen of the m four and the oxford ringroad. there's reported to be a four to ten vehicle pile up there and that's close to the roadworks. major congestion is building. you are asked to avoid the area. it's just two miles north of chievely and the police are on the scene at the moment. on the m four in berkshire, junctions eleven to twelve, that's the a thirty three and theale turn off, the roadworks there are causing a ten mile tailback in both directions. you are also advised to avoid that area as well. on the m twenty five its very slow anti-clockwise, junctions twenty to nineteen, kingslangley and the a forty one. also very slow at junctions to sixteen to fifteen, the m four m forty if you're heading back from london. on the a four two three, kidlington to banbury road, expect some delays due to the traffic lights near bunkers hill. that's beginning to ease at the moment and also beginning to ease on the problems being caused on the a four two one just south of bicester, due to the changes in the road layout at the new m forty interchange. as i say, beginning to ease now. finally, the market square in aylesbury is still closed for major work and obviously will be for some time, and you need to still avoid that area. mark rise, a a roadwatch. british rail tell us the eighteen twenty four, manchester to paddington train — that's the train that's due in at oxford at eighteen twenty four- is fifteen minutes late this evening, and all trains from paddington to oxford are about twenty minutes late. the buses tell us they've no particular problems, but obviously they are getting held up where the traffic is busy. the fox report on one o two point six. it's six thirty one. the education secretary, john mcgregor has been appointed as sir geoffrey howe's successor as leader of the commons. kenneth clarke is to become education secretary, and william waldegrade, currently minister of state at the foreign office, will get the job of health secretary. iran has reopened its embassy in britain, eighteen months after links were severed when ayatollah khomeni issued a death threat on salman rushdie. families of british hostages held in beirut hope the new era of co-operation will help will freedom of their loved ones. an ulster defence regiment soldier has been murdered in a booby trap bombing, after being tricked into opening a van door at the garage where he worked. a woman drove a van into the garage at cooksdown in county tyrone and asked him to fit a new exhaust. as she ran off the man opened the van of the door, which then blew up. the weather for the fox f m area. this afternoon's showers should clear up this evening to leave all areas with a dry night. cloud will gradually disperse and clear areas will appear, allowing the temperature to fall to one degree celsius, that's thirty four degrees fahrenheit, with a widespread ground frost and few mist patches in the valleys. on one o two point six f m. this is the fox report with jane markham. well, they did it. oxford united achieved what no other team this season has been able to do. they beat west ham. that was of course a league cup match, and despite that showing they find themselves still second from bottom, second division, and they need to convert that league cup success into winning league matches. their manager, brian houghton, says the victory over the irons , as west ham are known, should mark the turning point for the club's fortunes. it's funny how it goes. we seem to get the rub of the green in the rumbelow's cup at the moment. we need to get them in the league. we've lost one in six. we've conceded three goals in six games, so it's not too bad, is it? but we've got to start sort of transmitting those performances into points in the league quickly. the difference between having a good time and a bad time is so minimal it's unbelievable, but this, with three points for a win, situation it makes it so hard to say well we're a bottom side, we're a top side, all of a sudden in half a dozen games we could be like a top side. it's that close. mick and er i think leicester are like that. i've seem them play and they're not a bad team. i've seen us play, and i don't think we're a bad team. but, but when you look at it we're second from bottom so we are a bad team at this present time. we've got to do something about it. if we play like we did on wednesday night we haven't got a problem. if we play like we did second half against watford we wouldn't have a problem. if we play many games — you can reflect on them all, can't you? but the fact is we ain't got enough points. we gotta start getting some points. so what about the team tomorrow? is it going to be the same one, or are you just announcing a squad? mick, i honestly don't know at this present time. we've got three or four knocks from the other night. you saw them. paul kee got a knock making a good save. mickey lewis making a brave tackle. mark stein got one, who everyone thought was a very good game the other night. so there's three. there was another one came in with a little bit of a strain yesterday morning, so what've done this morning, we've just had a collective training session and we've told them to report at quarter to eleven in the morning. we'll have a little loosener and then hopefully it will be the same team. well there you go. now mickey , our sports editor is here and we've mentioned brian houghton, of course, or he's mentioned himself. what about the local sports scene this weekend mickey. well rugby dominates. and first of all, i must say good luck to the eleven local sides taking part in tomorrow's curtain raiser at twickers before we take on the argy-bargies and thrash them. that's unless they cheat. do you remember football wise back in nineteen sixty-six they played against england and all they did was kick our players. fancy kicking nobby stiles! and sir alf ramsey called them animals. that was football, mickey, that's different. i know. oh, sorry, jane. anyway another hello to witney rugby club's silver jubilee. they're going to be celebrating with a match against the kew occasionals fifteen, who include two irish internationals and six former blues, and afterwards there'll be a firework display, and if they phone me up i'll come along, as long as it's free of charge. you like fireworks, don't you? oh i like everything that goes off with a bang, jane! what about local football? i suppose we're talking non-league here. absolutely. we've got buckingham there playing drifters,pennanians . hang on a minute, i've got that wrong. that's rugby. that's the provincial cup third round in rugby. i'll ask you about rugby first, then. what about the provincial third cup , whatever it is, mickey, what about that? well, whatever it is, buckingham are playing drifters and they'll win that. pennanians , they're going to lose against wheatley. milton keynes, they're hopeless, they haven't got a chance against bicester. abingdon, i think they'll lose to cholsey. and oxford marathons, as they just play down the road, they're going to beat witney. but i live in witney, so i'll go for a draw on that one, even though it's rugby. football — oh, there's bags of it, jane. just to pick out one or two. buckingham town against bracknell. this is the f a vase cup first round. their answer, well non-leagues answer, to the f a cup. brackley town, they're playing northfield. thame united — thank you very much for the phone call, we've got your fixture — and shall i mention it? yeah, why not, they're at home to bournemouth. they'll win that one — 'cos they gave me a fiver. abingdon united — they're at home to didcot town. in the vauxhall premier league, aylesbury united, quack quack the ducks — they're superb. they're gonna beat walsall, and tomorrow they're going to beat bognor, because i don't like the name of their club. in division two, south abingdon town — they're doing absolutely superbly, jane, they're at malden vale. oxford city — must mention this — they've got a two o'clock kick off at home to tring athletic because they've got no flood lights, and where do you think those flood lights are, jane? railway cuttings home of banbury unit. they're at it again. every time you mention football banbury unit surface, even if we play chelsea, even if oxford united play chelsea. who's going to be playing for chelsea?— a northern ireland international. where did he begin his career?— with banbury united, and he played in the same youth side as me. that's remarkable . well, a busy weekend. thank you very much, mickey. you're listening to the fox report. a bonfire, planned for a playing field in east oxford, has had to be cancelled because safety officials say its too dangerous. a rubbish dump at wood farm became so large that residents complained to oxford city council that it posed a fire risk. in a decision this afternoon, oxford city council's parks officer, bob stag, has been saying how industrial waste, and even council rubbish, has made the site too dangerous for the fire. well in previous years this has been an unofficial, but reasonably well organised and moderately sized bonfire. we've had no problems with it. on this occasion it's grown far too big. it's got out of hand. it's incorrectly built and it also appears to have been used as an excuse for fly tipping, and industrial fly tipping at that. when fire protection officials came to look at the dump they discovered mattresses deposited by a bed company, furniture and even potentially hazardous oil cans. john seer, who's fire protection officer at oxfordshire's fire brigade, says had the dump been set alight it could have endangered life. this particular bonfire has been constructed of industrial waste and in consequence we are unable to ascertain precisely what is inside the bonfire. bonfires generally are very safe. there may be, within this bonfire — and until it's taken apart we will not be able to ascertain this — there may be petroleum cans in there, there may be small l p g cylinders, all of which will go off with a very large explosion and possibly cause some injury to life. the fox report, on one o two point six. on one o two point six f m, this is the fox report with jane markham. still to come, oxford's ice hockey team, the spire oxford city stars, ar runners up in the autumn cup, but that is just the start. the cup was a warm up for us and the league is what we play. we have twenty eight games in front of us here. we've gotta do as well as we can and we've gotta try and get promotion this year. financial report with halpern and woolfe keeping oxfordshire in business. the shock resignation of sir geoffrey howe last night took its inevitable toll on the london stock market. the possibility of a conservative defeat at the next election promotion investors to unload shares. by lunchtime the footsie one hundred had lost sixteen points on its overnight position. however, following a strong opening on wall street, the market forgot political uncertainties and made a modest rally, closing the day up two point seven at two o three o point seven. on the foreign exchanges, the pound was firmer against the dollar, closing at one dollar point nine five three five, but it closed fractionally down on the stronger mark at two deutschmarks point nine three three one. today's shares — abbey national up point five at two one o point five. british aerospace up five at five four three. british airways down two at one three nine. british gas went down two point five to two one three. british telecom down point five at two five nine. goodhead publishing group unchanged at forty three. metal box unchanged one o seven five. morland brewers stayed at two six three, while oxford instruments went down two to two two four. thames water unchanged at two three o and t s b unchanged at one two six. today's major movers — thames television up sixteen to three seven one and pearson down thirty two to six one o. you're listening to the fox report. this weekend the new ice hockey league season starts. as spire oxford city stars, who are supported by fox f m, finished runners up in the autumn cup, and now they're brimming over with confidence as they approach they new season. they're at home to blackburn on sunday, but begin their english division one campaign away to harringay tomorrow night. and despite their recent successes, mickey put it to the star's coach, don jameson, that they've yet to find a way round harringay's defensive system. we've drawn with them twice in the autumn cup. four four down there and five five up here. so obviously we are looking to get the points for the first time. it's bee a very frustrating team for us to play. they play a very defensive style and we're gonna need to go down there an open the game up and play as well as we can. we need to get the two points. we need to get off to a good start in the league. now of course these two sides are new to ice hockey, the players aren't. harringay — they've took a few from chelmsford, and as for the blackburn black hawks, they used to be your team mates. that's right. five of them i used to play with at the trafford metros in manchester, so they've got a very experienced team. they've got four players from blackpool, a couple from bradford, so although the teams are new in name they're not new in make up. it's a very experienced squad in blackburn and we're gonna have our hands full sunday night. it's going to be an exciting game. now, i've seen both sides and i do believe that blackburn are going to present the bigger problem. i think blackburn have their eye on promotion. they wanna be in this league one year. they said they want to go straight through, so they're gonna spend a lot of money. they spent the money on the british players. so they're very confident. what i've told the players is we've got to go up and play as well as we can to beat a team like blackburn. they've got an experienced, strong squad and we're going to have to play up to our strength to beat them. this is the big tester, isn't it? this is the bread and butter that will determine the future. oh this is what it's all about. i mean the cup was a warm-up for us and the league is what we play. we have twenty eight games in front of us here. we've gotta do as well as we can and we've gotta try and get promotion this year. and what's more, we want to see that ice rink filled because it's the greatest family sporting entertainment you could ever wish to see and with the crowd behind you it gives you that extra buzz. it's a tremendous game. it's the world's fastest team game. it's a thrilling spectacle. if you haven't been down before i would strongly suggest this sunday night at five thirty. it's going to be a heck of a game and er there'll be some surprises as well. if you've never been to an ice hockey game, it's more than a game — it's a night out. i mean, you start the proceedings about five o'clock with a pre-game leisure show. there's a warm-up. there's lots of music and its a good night out for families. why not come on down, five thirty p.m. sunday night? don, you've talked me into it. i'm going to be there, but then i always am. but we want everybody else to come down. that's right. there's a few seats left. get on down, sunday night. you're listening to the fox report. in the dangerous sport of bobsleighing, those of you with long enough memories will no doubt remember great britain snatching a gold medal at the nineteen sixty-four winter olympics. twenty six years on the chances are that britain could, once again, be thought of as potential medal prospects. ed hawtin, from west oxfordshire, has recently returned from west germany, where great britain raised a few eyebrows with impressive runs in two and four man bobs. phil angell asked him what does it take to risk life and limb. there are three aspects which would make a world class bobsleigher. you have to have a very experienced driver. you have to have very good equipment, and you have to have the best start possible. and when you get to international level, if you give away a hundredth of a second on the start, that's equivalent to four hundredths at the bottom on a perfect run. so if you give away a tenth on the start, you've given nearly half a second per run, and most competitions are either two, three or four runs, cumulative time, so, you know, if you give away a couple of tenths every time at the end of the day you're going to be a second down. so what are your plans in the next year or two as we head up towards the next winter olympics? well, obviously, we take sort of each race as it comes. we go away to canada at the weekend. that's for the first world cup race, two and four man. we then come back from there and we've got a mass of competitions, some in what was east germany, some in west germany. we go to the new track in the south of france at albertville, which is where the olympics are. but it's a glamorous sport. i mean, if you're sitting in a pub at night and some guys are showing off in a corner going ‘hey, what do you do, dude’ and you go ‘well, i'm a bobsleigher, actually’it tends to shut people up i should imagine, doesn't it? yes, it does, although it tends to be the opposite way round. when you actually achieve something you tend not to mention it so much. you know, very often you hear the people that are actually talking about the things they've done are normally the ones that haven't quite got there. four hundred veteran cars are going to be leaving london's westminster bridge on sunday, the start of the annual london to brighton car run. the ancient machines will wend their way down the fifty seven mile route, and among their number will be bob may from marcham near abingdon. bob, at eighty, is what you might call an enthusiast. he still finds time to race motor bikes, as well as keeping his nineteen o four de dion bouton in tune. single cylinder. its automatic inlet valve, which means it doesn't operate mechanically. it sucks the gas into the engine. there's no throttle as you know it on a modern car. you rely on speed and on raising an lowering the tappet, so when you put your foot on the decelerator it drops the tappet down and stops the value opening, then you're on full compression and then you pull up, and that's your main brake. now what's one of the most charming aspects of taking this car along? well my other car is a nineteen twenty nine v six bentley, which will do a hundred mile an hour, so if i drive them alternately it cuts me down to size . a hundred miles an hour! you'll get there in no time in that. i don't go to brighton on it. you have to be before nineteen o four to be in london to brighton — before nineteen o five. nineteen oh four cars can go, but nothing later. the other car, the other de dion we had, burst its radiator, but we are very resourceful; we went and bought thirty foot of garden hose and connected it to the engine and sent the water round and round the car and that acted as a radiator, and we drove it for a week like that. it must take up all of your spare time just to keep it in tune. i've got three cars and seven motor bikes, and i don't have much spare time. do you still ride the motor bike? oh yes. whereabouts? er well last year we brought the dutch over and we had a competition with them. in nineteen hundred and twelve the dutch came and the oxford motor club entertained them and we went all round the high wycome area,cophill and that on hill climbs, so we re-enacted it last year and i was riding my nineteen fourteen motorcycle, and i was asked — i was the oldest rider — how old are you?— i said eighty years old — and what is your biggest difficulty?— and i said getting my leg over, which i really literally meant because the saddle's very high and i do have a job getting my leg over the saddle! the fox report. still problems on the a thirty four this evening, northbound, between the m four at junction thirteen and the oxford ringroad. the accident that happened there has now been cleared off the carriageway. there are still major tailbacks there, though, and the police are asking you still to avoid it. it will be some time before that's clear at all. also on the a thirty four, at great rollright near chipping norton, there's been a serious accident there and there are tailbacks beginning to grow in both directions. there have been other numerous, minor accidents police tell me throughout oxfordshire. extra caution is required through the county because it's still very heavy traffic in parts. on the a four two three, the kidlington to banbury road, they expect delays still to go on through much of the evening due to the traffic lights at bunkers hill, and on the a four two one, just south of bicester, the changes to the road layout at the new m forty interchange has made traffic fairly heavy still. on the m twenty five it's still very busy in both directions and indeed especially the m four and m forty interchanges with the m twenty five are very busy at the moment. mark rise, a a roadwatch. and trains from paddington into oxford are running about twenty minutes late this evening, but i've no specific problems to report from the buses. on one o two point six f m, this is the fox report with jane markham. have you ever fancied skiing? well you can give it a go tomorrow in central oxford of all places. the oxfordshire ski club and touchwood sports are behind the event. judith hall and tony bovey are both going to be there. judith, tell me a little bit more about this event, i'm fascinated to know how people can actually be skiing in central oxford. er it's an event held in the gallery and er we have got er ski experts coming er, equipment people; we have got the latest ski simulator coming down from dorset, which enables people to actually get inside and it takes you down the val de zere er no, yes, takes you down the val de zere downhill and it really is quite impressive. that's quite remarkable. er we have er a ski machine coming from gloucester which is going to let people have a go and er get them in the right position, and when they do it right all the bells go off, so it's a fun day for people to come and have a go on things. a skiing machine? tony, have you come across one of these things before? you're a ski expert, i understand? yes, i have. there are a number of them. some are used by the alpine training squads for dry land training. obviously, when there is some snow on the hills in the summer you can't do much, so they are very carefully made and some of them are connected to a computer, so if you have a very good coach with you he can say ‘you're going that right, no do it a bit more like this, or a bit more like that’. franz klammer made a skiing simulator and he had it in his garage, and what it was was a series of rolling logs. these machines are much, much more sophisticated and they actually simulate what you do when you are skiing. so does it, i mean it doesn't it look anything like a ski slope i image? no, it doesn't, nothing at all. the one machine is a series of linked pedals on a bar, so it tells you how to edge, how to unweight and do things like that. what it really does — let's not get too involved in the equipment — it gives people a flavour of what skiing's about. of course, we can't have the mountains, but our enthusiasm and we'll help you experience it. yes, not a lot of mountains at gloucester green, i must say. so er can people come along and have a go if they've never had a go before? do they yes, it's open to everyone and we have a full range of experts there — people from the equipment companies, from touchwood sports, tour operators, the ski club will be there as well and we'll be there to explain what skiing is, how you can start, how you learn to ski on the dry ski slope with the ski club, how you can go on alpine holidays, evening events, everything. and when does it all start? when do people have to come along? it starts at ten till four, and er all the proceeds we do make from, you know, the rides, and we have got an ongoing raffle which is going to be drawn at christmas at our club meeting — we have some wonderful prizes donated for that — and er the money is actually going to two er charities, backup for spinally injured people, and oxrad a local oxford charity. they will actually be there themselves as well. thank you both very much indeed. now, we've got a busy studio this evening, with lots and lots of people in. have you ever been part of a syndicate taking part in the pools? well, we have a particularly clever syndicate, who've managed to have won five times so far this year, and tony is here from the syndicate. tony, you've just won. you won last saturday, i believe. how much did you win? it's an enormous amount of money. it's three pounds sixty, divided by a syndicate of twenty one people, and the seacourt press syndicate runs on a system. it is available if anybody wants to give a five pound donation to the fox appeal. up for sale for the fox box appeal, great. we don't really think it's going to change any of our lives. yes, i mean, it's a question of don't spend that all at once i suppose. no er some people have suggested buying skodas, but then we've still got the problem of what to do with the rest of the money. i mean i wouldn't want to give away how it all works, but you have actually won five times and so how much have you actually picked up this season? oh over eighty pounds, but then a lot of that goes on the horses with the fox favourites. yes. i think we can blame phil angell for that . you actually, i think, somewhere round grand national time did rather well, didn't you? oh yes, grand national, yes very well on that. that was all part of the cause as well. how did that all work? um well we didn't know what to do with the money, so we basically gambled it on the grand national. that was about ninety odd pounds. that was a winning of thirty seven pounds initially. as far as i remember, i think phil actually had the winner of the national, didn't he? mr frisk, sixteen to one, i'm told sixteen to one — four pounds each way. as if we'd ever be allowed to forget that. so you're going to be continuing, hopefully you're aiming to raise more than three pounds sixty next time you have a go? yes, well, with seventeen point one pence each there's not an awful lot you can do with that. we don't want any begging letters at the seacourt press. tony, thank you very much for joining us. thank you. bye bye. finally, a look at the headlines from today's local press. local schools may be asked to rent out their playgrounds to help wantage's parking problems. that's according to the wantage and grove herald. the chipping norton edition of the oxford times features susan cook, an eighteen year old fashion student from faringdon, who was runner up in a national competition for young deaf achiever of the year. and the bicester advertiser advertises changes in thames transit's bus services and those are taking place in the area from tuesday we are told. and that was the fox report for november, friday november the second nineteen ninety. i'm back with another fox report on monday, but if you want to know everything about the sport and leisure that's happening in the area, do make sure you listen to fox leisure with steve priestley and phil angell tomorrow at two, and steve priestly is here, in person, after the news at seven with the red fox. tonight, the chancellor tells the house of commons that interest rates won't be tumbling further. i must emphasize that i will not make a further reduction in interest rates until i'm sure that it is safe and prudent to do so. twice as many women are elected to the church of england's general synod, they're confident it will herald the ordination of women. i think that there's a great deal of, of need and longing and, and concern of people to have the ministry of a woman. and the sort of video extracts a new television programme isn't looking for. a chap was decorating his lounge, and he, he'd locked the camera off on himself, but he had no clothes on. the six o'clock news, this is howard hughes. cases of aids contracted through heterosexual sex have risen by ninety five per cent in the past year. the department of health is warning that h i v infection among heterosexuals is increasing faster than in any other group. julie swedges, sedgewick reports. the report claims three hundred and sixty five cases of aids have been reported over the past three months; it's the highest quarterly rate yet. over the last twelve months, the number of cases transmitted through heterosexual sex has almost doubled. that compares with an eighty nine per cent increase among drug abusers and a forty per cent increase among gay men. chief medical officer, sir donald aitchison, warned it's now vitally important that heterosexuals adopt safer behaviour patterns. labour is accusing mrs thatcher of dodging a debate on britain's entry into the exchange rate mechanism because she's humiliated by the u-turn. peter murphy reports. chancellor john major told the commons britain had joined the e m s as the time was right. the government has long made it clear that sterling would enter the exchange rate mechanism during stage one of economic and monetary union which began in july; it has now done so at the earliest appropriate time. but labour's john smith asked what had happened to mrs thatcher's conditions for entry set out in madrid. i ask the chancellor to explain why there has been such a humiliating u-turn by the prime minister. herself, the inventor of the madrid conditions, and now their arch destroyer. he said it was clear that the government had only joined as a last resort to try and solve the country's economic problems. peter murphy, i r n, westminster. president gorbachov says his nobel peace prize win is proof his programme of reforms is working. he's been given the award for his role in ending the cold war, freeing the eastern block and resolving regional conflicts. from moscow, sue jamison reports. ‘words fail one at such moments’ said the president when the news was broken to him at the kremlin by the norwegian ambassador, but immediately recovering his powers of speech, he said he didn't see the prize as a personal achievement. ‘it is’, he said, ‘recognition of the significance of the immense course of perestroika’. however, while he's lauded in the west for his achievements, at home the award means much less; perestroika has lost much of its appeal and simply means yet more empty shelves in the shops and more despondency about the economy. sue jamison, i r n, moscow. nineteen people have been injured, six seriously in a coach crash on the m fifty in gloucestershire. the coach carrying elderly passengers on an outing, left the road south-east of worcester, and crashed down an embankment. a full enquiry has been launched into how a rapist was able to attack an eleven-year old girl in a children's ward at a london hospital. police have this afternoon been trying to question the girl, who's said to be extremely distressed. staff at st heliers in carshalton say doors were left unlocked for up to ten minutes so an emergency patient could be admitted. but union officials have described security as sloppy. richard latimer from the merton and sutton health authority says ‘a review is now underway’. everyone is terribly concerned at the moment; we had thought that the security at st helier was tighter than in most other hospitals. there are three full-time staff doing nothing else, they have also got closed monitoring, closed circuit television, and things of that nature, and we're going to look at all that too, to see whether we can even then, improve matters. lester piggott has come second in his return to racing at leicester this afternoon. the fifty four year old retired five years ago after being named champion jockey twelve times, but was granted a new licence last week. his five to one shot lupescoo lost by a short head to semonda . t v tipster john mccrillock says ‘racing is piggott's sole obsession’. lester is one-dimensional; there's nothing else he can think about apart from riding race horses, and getting a bit of money as well also helps him, so the problem is, when you're one-dimensional, you're lost if you're not doing the only thing you love and understand, and that must be a bit sad. independent radio news. it's monday the fifteenth of october 1990. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail, and the chancellor of the exchequer was on his feet in the house of commons on their first day back after the summer recess. peter murphy was there. the long summer holidays are over and mps returned to the commons to take stock of developments while they were at the seaside. a week ago, sterling joined the european exchange rate mechanism; it lifted the gloom for the tory party conference in bournemouth, and this afternoon, the chancellor, john major, came to explain why now was the right time for britain to join. it has become abundantly clear that policy is now reducing inflationary pressures in the economy. monetary growth on all measures has fallen sharply, and the growth of narrow money is within its target range; the growth of demand has slowed. although the rise in oil prices will continue to feed through for a while, the prospect is for a substantial reduction in inflation over the coming year. and just in case anyone was celebrating too much, mr major warned: membership of the exchange rate mechanism will be an additional discipline for the united kingdom economy; in no sense is it a soft option. monetary policy will remain tight; i must emphasize that i will not make a further reduction in interest rates until i am sure that it is safe and prudent to do so. the prime minister was sitting on the front bench as mr major explained the importance of membership, and how wonderful it all was. she had never seemed that keen on the idea, and had set out her conditions in madrid on membership. shadow chancellor, john smith: now i ask the chancellor to explain why there has been such a humiliating u-turn by the prime minister; herself the inventor of the madrid conditions, and now their arch destroyer. is it not simply because of this: that the government, because of their appalling mismanagement of our economy, have been forced to concede that they simply could not achieve that inflation target which they had set for themselves. the prime minister has been challenged by neil kinnock to debate the issue. she has refused, which led mr smith to ask: is the prime minister, who's role in this affair is so crucial, that she simply must take part in the debate which we hope to have in this house; why does she not admit it. and if our parliamentary accountability is as important as she frequently claims in this context, why is she reluctant to take part in the debate? mr major was clearly not going to get involved in that argument, and mrs thatcher's made it clear she's not going to get involved in debating the matter either. but as for membership itself, there were mixed reactions, especially on the government side. tony nelson thought it was a tremendous start. that having taken this momentous decision to join the exchange rate mechanism, we have taken a step of the most important step towards economic monetary union from which there can be no turning back. you're listening to the fox report. soviet president mikael gorbachov has been awarded the nobel peace prize. according to the nobel committee which sits in stockholm, mr gorbachov has opened up new possibilities for the world community to solve its pressing problems. but although the prize may have enhanced mr gorbachov's standing in the international community, his position at home is still precarious. avovi todd has been following the soviet leader's route to the kremlin. mikael sergayiz gorbachov was born in a rural town near stavropol in the southern region of russia in nineteen forty one. he studied law at the moscow state university, and went on to become a full communist party member two years later, in nineteen fifty two. after finishing his studies, and marrying raisa, he returned to his home town to work his way up the party hierarchy. the turning point for him and the soviet union came in nineteen eighty five, when he succeeded konstantin chernenko as the general secretary; within one year, he'd begun in earnest his reform programme, familiarising the world as well as his fellow soviet citizens with words such as peristroika and glasnost. at the same time, he freed the nobel prize winning dissident, andre sakarov from his exile in gorky. in nineteen eighty seven, he travelled to washington to meet ronald reagan, and signed an historic agreement to eliminate medium range nuclear weapons. announcing the i n f treaty, mr reagan looked forward to even greater agreements to come. today i for the united states, and the general secretary for the soviet union have signed the first agreement ever to eliminate an entire class of u s and soviet nuclear weapons. we have made history. mr gorbachov too accepted the agreement would become a landmark in modern world history. when told that he was to become the recipient of the peace award, the normally eloquent mr gorbachov said ‘words fail at such moments, i am moved’. but he must be all too aware that it won't impress the soviet citizens facing economic crisis, and waiting in the food queues, nor will it immediately resolve the ethnic problems which beset him. but david lamby, the vice chairman of the british soviet parliamentary group says ‘nonetheless, the award will be seen as a vital show of support’. world peace is a most important, er item affecting everyone in the world; gorbachov has been one of the foremost politicians, international politicians to, to make a change in, in, er in the world climate, so far as peace is concerned, and therefore that will certainly help him solve his bread and butter problems in the soviet union. so far mr gorbachov has given no indication of how he intends to spend his prize of seven hundred thousand dollars. on the m forty between junctions four and five, that's between high wycombe and stokenchurch, the road's down to two narrow lanes in both directions, with a contraflow system operating for a short stretch about midway between the two junctions, and that is also down to single line traffic at times; so that could delay you a little. buckinghamshire on the a forty one, high street, aylesbury, there is restrictions for traffic, and galley lane, great brickhill is closed because of roadworks. in oxfordshire on the a forty three at weston on the green, between bicester and banbury, there are lane closures for junction work, and on the a forty one london road, bicester, there's resurfacing work taking place, and restrictions for traffic going both ways. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. british rail tell us that the glasgow to brighton train which was due at oxford at half past five, is running forty five minutes late this evening, and the six twenty four manchester to london paddington train is five minutes late. but i've no problems to report to you from the buses. still to come: calls for tighter security in britain's hospitals after a little girl is raped in her south london hospital bed. officials at the john radcliffe in oxford, say they take great care over security. were any undesirables as it were, to come on to the ward, i'm sure they would be picked up almost immediately. and security are available on two-way radio and can be up and involved in the situation within minutes. with a round up of the day's local news, here's paul kirby. a man has been further remanded in custody today, charged with rape and indecent assault at a north oxfordshire barracks. joseph ian gardiner mcewan from king's park in glasgow has been charged in connection with an incident at the royal army ordnance corps at arncott near bicester. he's been kept in custody until next week by bicester magistrates. an inquest into the deaths of two young people killed in a car accident in south oxfordshire, is expected to take place this week. seventeen year old sharon ferns and kenneth honer aged twenty six, died when their car overturned and burst into flames early on friday morning in the village of berinsfield. a scheme to slow down traffic in the area has already been agreed by the county council, but chairman of the district council, ken hall, says ‘this isn't the end to all the problems’. what we're after also is double yellow lines, because cars park round the perimeter, and we have buses that comes in, er local buses, we have the problem of where to, to get round the village normally. well, during the night of course, you have cars which are parked in the dark, and without their lights on, so you can see that it, it causes extra problems. a banbury man known as psycho has been sentenced to two and a half years in custody for an unprovoked knife attack on a man out walking his dog. unemployed martin lewis of trinity close in the town, stabbed trevor lampett in the chest with a ten inch kitchen knife. lewis who's twenty, admitted a charge of wounding with intent to cause grievous bodily harm. when sentencing him at oxford crown court today, judge leo clarke described it as a motiveless and shocking attack. a man has been jailed in oxford today for causing grievous bodily harm to a tanker driver. twenty four year old builder ian baxter, from tilehurst in reading, threatened to slice up the driver of a petrol tanker with a builder's grinder when prevented from filling up at the blewberry service station in oxfordshire; he hit the driver with the grinder, knocking out two of his teeth. ian baxter admitted charges of grievous bodily harm and interfering with a motor vehicle; he was jailed for two and a half years. finally, oxford city council are launching a low alcohol week today to encourage people to drink less; alcohol-free tasting sessions at a local community centre coincide with a new balanced alcohol strategy campaign. pensioners, parents and toddlers are invited to ‘welcome to l a week’, to learn about the seriousness of alcohol abuse. city councillor betty staningford says ‘the aim is to get across a serious message in a light hearted way’. no way do i wish to be seen as a killjoy, i, i like a drink myself, i would always happy to give somebody a drink, but it's the over indulgence which worries us. so, to prove that it's fun in northway community centre, we're having a whole week of fun things, culminating with a disco and er a quiz. fox f m news, paul kirby reporting. patients and health unions are demanding better security at britain's hospitals after an eleven year old girl was raped in a children's ward. the attacker got past nurses and private security guards unnoticed at st helier hospital in south london. until a fortnight ago, geoff martin was the local council's representative on the merton and sutton health authority which voted to use a private security firm at the hospital. he says, although he was opposed to the move, no-one at the time could have predicted the horrifying consequences, and he says ‘there must be a public enquiry to expose what went wrong’. my main fear is that once the initial publicity for this has died down, that the health authority may attempt to have some sort of behind closed doors, almost like a cover up, and i think that, that, the, this is, this incident has got such ramifications for hospital security in general, there should be a full public enquiry; and the public have a right to know what went on. obviously it's a terrifying incident for er any parent listening, but what was so wrong, or, is there anything wrong in introducing private firms to police hospitals? well i think until we know the full facts, it's difficult to actually blame anybody, er for this, this particular incident. but there has been a lot of concern about the privatised er security contract at st helier, er the way it was subcontracted by the original contractor, er without any member of the health authority actually knowing about that; i certainly didn't know and i was on the authority at the time. and i think there are a lot of questions that need to be asked — has there been, er have, have corners been cut in order to keep the cost down, were we getting a good quality service or just a cheap service? what are the implications from this incident for security at other hospitals? well what i'm hoping now is that er following this absolutely tragic incident, that er there will be a general er review of hospital security. i know that the ministry of defence have been forced to review their private security arrangements at defence establishments er because of breaches of security there, and i would hope that the health service and the department of health and the local health authorities will take the same kind of responsible action. but surely nobody could have anticipated this sort of attack? well you can never anticipate any breach of security, i mean that's why you have security in the first place, in order to prevent things from happening. er. but there's a big difference in my view between the sort of regular abuse and assaults on staff in a casualty department and somebody walking into what should have been a locked ward on a children's unit in a hospital at two o'clock in the morning. we need to know who was to blame, we need a full open enquiry into this incident, and we must make sure that this sort of thing never happens again. you're listening to the fox report. the john radcliffe hospital in oxford is to upgrade security on its wards, the new comes, the news comes in the light of the sexual assault on the eleven year girl at st helier's hospital. hospital officials at the john radcliffe are to introduce a new card system whereby all staff will carry identification. services and development manager at the j r, richard sunley, says while there's no guarantee an incident of the kind that occurred in carshalton won't happen in oxford, he believes the new security system will play a significant role. although we're working er all the time to keep security as tight as we can at the john radcliffe, er the scheme is going to give us the ability to challenge members of staff, legitimate members of staff, as we currently do, er and they will then have to provide, produce the card, er so we can then assess whether they are or are not a member of staff. do you think that there's a chance that what happened in carshalton could possibly happen at the john radcliffe? we can never be a hundred per cent sure with security, we are, it is a public building, we do encourage er patients and their relatives to come up on to the children's wards as part of the treatment er to make it a much more homely atmosphere. but the wards are staffed twenty four hours a day, nursing staff are always about, we have dedicated security staff who can be called at a minute's notice, and staff are obviously aware on kid's wards how sensitive security is, and will be challenging people when they come on to the wards. how closely guarded are the children's wards during the night? i think it would be wrong to say guarded, it, it's a er you know, it's a balance you've got to strike. obviously we're trying to make a homely atmosphere so that parents can come and go, er when new parents come on to the ward, when new patients come on to the ward, nursing staff maintain a, a close control and a close liaison with them, so were any undesirables as it were, to come on to the ward, i am sure they would be picked up almost immediately. er. security are available on two way radio and can be up and involved in the situation within minutes. how can you stop undesirables from entering the building, do you believe you can stop them? not in a hundred per cent of the cases, er and we do have undesirables at the john radcliffe, er but there hasn't been an incident such as this er i think that goes some way to prove that we do have a reasonably tight security service, and we, we work to any way that we can to keep it as secure as possible. you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty one minutes past six. it's six twenty two. the government has announced new statistics which show that the number of aids cases reported among heterosexuals is up by ninety five per cent. robin gorner is er aids liaison officer with oxford city council. robin, this on the face of it looks very worrying, what's your reaction to these statistics? well clearly it's devastating news; er unfortunately i think we have to say that we're not tremendously surprised. the news is that heterosexuals had become infected with h i v, the virus that leads to aids, ten to fifteen years ago, and that the numbers were doubling ten to fifteen years ago, that's what it means when we hear aids cases, and what that must mean for today, is horrifying. i think what it clearly shows is that health education messages aren't getting through to heterosexuals. in the reports it showed that only forty per cent of gay men were becoming infected, whereas ninety five per cent increase in heterosexuals, that's very worrying. it shows that we must step up our efforts to ensure that everyone is fully educated, but not only that they know the facts, but that they start to act upon them. now it, it does sound, ninety five per cent sound a lot, but the actual numbers involved are up from a hundred and twenty three to two hundred and forty. now, er looking at it from, from the population of sixty million or so, that wouldn't seem too terrifying. i suppose not if you think that it means there's only two hundred and forty heterosexuals with aids in the country. what it means as i said before, is that ten or fifteen years ago, that number of people got infected, so now ten fifteen years on, we usually multiply by at least a hundred, so we're really talking about thousands of people living with h i v, and probably unaware of the fact that they have it. that doesn't mean that i think people should run out and get tested, but anyone who's heterosexually active, having sexual relationships, needs to think about the risks, and take care of themselves and their partners, need to make sure that they use condoms, that they get themselves informed about the facts. now, now you've been working in the area of aids for some time now, do you think that the message is getting through? i know that the message is getting through to gay men, but i'm not surprised to hear that it's not getting through to heterosexuals. i think all of us wish this epidemic would go away, and that it wouldn't touch us and that it were only small numbers, but the news today clearly shows that it affects each and every one of us. er. i think here in oxford we've got good health education, but we still need to make sure that it's appropriate, that it's sensitive to people's needs, and actually tells people what they want know, and i hope that anyone out there will contact agencies to make sure that they're updated on the information. robin thank you. you're listening to the fox report. with all the results now known for the elections to the general synod of the church of england, supporters say they expect the church to agree to the ordination of women in the next few years. the number of women elected to the church's parliament is double that of last time, and those in favour of women priests, are confident that they've secured the required majority to have their way by nineteen ninety five. robin powell has been talking to an oxfordshire woman just elected, who takes a less optimistic view. susan cole-king from burcott has already been ordained; it was into the episcopal church in the united states four years ago, but mrs cole-king, who works as a deacon for the oxford diocese at dorchester, is looking forward to the day she'll be able to act as a priest closer to home. yet although her support for women priests is well known, she says it was her interest in a wide range of other issues that persuaded local clergy and laity to vote her on to the synod for five years. i'm concerned with the centrality of prayer and spirituality in the life of the church and the need to nurture this. i'm concerned with er third world issues and the wider world, and the need for the church to be prophetic and stand up and be counted for the sake of justice. mrs cole-king has already caused a stir by suggesting she had no objection to the idea of women holding communion in private homes, but she now says she realises that isn't a good idea and it certainly won't be something she'll be campaigning for. no i've never campaigned for that, and i've never supported it in that sense. i certainly would not say that this is what should happen at this particular time, no. we don't know what's going to happen when the vote is taken, er i think that there is a great deal of, of need and longing and, and concern of people to have the ministry of a woman, as a priest, the sac, the sacramental ministry of women in, in all kinds of ways. at the moment, i'm under the discipline of, of the church of england, which does not allow me to exercise my priestly functions; there aren't many women here who are priests and can do this kind of thing, so i really don't know what will happen. other supporters of women priests are more optimistic; they say the election results mean they'll be able to persuade the church to change its rules within five years. in that case, mrs cole-king would be able to act as a priest in dorchester abbey without having to be ordained again. it is an ambition of hers, but she reckons there's still a long way to go. i don't actually think that, that, that it's quite so clear cut, i think that there's still a bit of persuading that, that we have to do to persuade people that it is the right thing. er. there is still quite a lot of opposition, so i don't think it's, it's a certainty, but i would certainly very much hope and believe that this is the will of god for the church and that, that it will happen. the department of the environment has given the go ahead for oxfordshire's plans for extracting minerals until the turn of the century. the environment secretary, chris patten has agreed to alterations to the county's structure plan, but it's still not clear whether the authority will have to proceed with a controversial scheme for a gravel pit at finmere. chief planning and development officer, liam tiller, says he's pleased that after nearly two years, whitehall has at last agreed to the council's proposals. i am glad they've approved it because it's, it's removed any uncertainty there might have been about the nineteen nineties, slightly disappointing that they chose to tinker with our wording here and there, but, but by and large, not too unhappy. what will these alterations mean? what they mean basically is that in relation to sand and gravel, the county council will, will continue to look to four areas of the county er for most of the sand and gravel production, that's the sutton courtney area, sutton wick area, er the stanton harcourt area and the cassington/yarnton area; most of the sand and gravel workings will be there. one other area, rather controversially that the council's been considering extracting gravel from, is finmere. does the department have anything to say about that? not specifically, er you, you're right, we've got a planning application in for finmere, er and the council will be considering that probably, next month. er. the plan doesn't point to finmere as an area where there's a resumption in favour of mineral working, so what we will have to do with the finmere proposals, is to look at it on its merits. you've earmarked four other places, now you need two point two million tons from those places, are you confident of getting that? in the long term, yes, but what we're currently doing as part of the assessment of the finmere application is just checking the resources that do exist in those four areas, to, to make sure that we're still able to meet our targets. and if you don't get that amount, presumably finmere comes back into the picture again? well, it, it doesn't mean that permission has to be granted at finmere, but it, it would make it more difficult to refuse. you're listening to the fox report, it's twenty nine minutes past six. and on the m twenty five between junctions fifteen and sixteen, that's for the m four and the m forty, there's heavy clockwise traffic. on the m forty between junctions four and five for high wycombe and stokenchurch, there are two narrow lanes in both directions, with a contraflow system for a short stretch about mid-way between the two junctions, also that can be down to single line traffic at times, so it is likely to slow you down a little. a forty one, high street aylesbury there are restrictions, and galley lane, great brickhill is closed for roadworks. on the a forty three at weston on the green, between bicester and banbury, there's lane closures for junction work. and on the a forty one, london road, bicester, there's resurfacing work causing restrictions of traffic both ways. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and i've nothing to report to you on the buses or trains. it's six thirty one. the government has announced a near doubling of the number of cases of aids among heterosexuals, and says the disease is growing faster in this group than in any other. in the last twelve months, the number of heterosexuals contracting aids has gone from a hundred and twenty three to two hundred and forty. labour is accusing mrs thatcher of dodging a discussion on britain's entry into the euro monetary system; they say she's chosen to avoid speaking in a commons debate on the issue because she's humiliated by the u-turn entry has meant for her. nineteen people have been injured, five of them seriously after a coach crashed down an embankment, bankment on the m fifty on the gloucestershire-worcestershire border; the coach was carrying elderly passengers on an outing. a full investigation is underway into how a rapist was able to attack a, a girl of eleven in a children's ward at a hospital in surrey. staff at st heliers in carshalton say doors were left unlocked for up to ten minutes for an emergency patient to be admitted, but union officials say security is sloppy. the weather for the fox f m area: a cloudy night, with rain at times, that rain's going to be heavy in places, especially on the cotswolds, the lowest temperatures will be around ten degrees celsius, that's fifty degrees fahrenheit. oxford city council is launching a balanced alcohol strategy for oxford during this low alcohol week; it's to be part of ‘healthy oxford two thousand’, which is a campaign also being er launched at the moment. shareen mithranee and debbie macelveen are both working on the scheme. shareen, you're very much part of the er, the attempt to help us all use alcohol a little bit more sensibly, what, what, what is this strategy? yes, er the strategy tries to take a sensible and reasonably er entertaining way of asking people to reduce their alcohol consumption towards more sensible recommended levels. we're not asking people to cut down, we're taking a balanced approach towards alcohol consumption in the whole community, so we're not er angling the strategy at people who are already very severe, heavy drinkers, or those who are alcohol dependent. we're asking people who drink, and that's ninety per cent of the british adult population, to see if they can cut down by a quarter if they're drinking above sensible levels. how are you going to make that entertaining? well, er make it entertaining is er fits in very well with what debbie might have to say, which is to do with the northway community centre low alcohol week, called ‘welcome to l a’. now that's the first time l a's come to oxford i think, but , that's all this week, and we're having er different programme of different various events and perhaps debbie would like to comment on both. yes, this, this is your, your neck of the woods debbie, what's, what's happening? right, well i work in quite a number of community centres across the city, and northway community centre which has a bar with quite a large turnover, a lot of members, er has agreed to host this project for the week, which is promoting healthier drinking. so it's actually manage, it's actually managed to get a bar to er invite people in and not drink alcohol? that's right, or to at least drink sensibly, and they've got promotions of the lower, low and non-alcoholic drinks this week, as well as having a range of entertainments on, esp, er culminating in saturday night on a quiz with healthy sort of questions, and a blindfold tasting competition aha! with a mixture of drinks so all, are these all low alcohol drinks of low alcohol drinks, yes there, there's quite a variety er of low alcohol drinks available now, what sort of things will be on offer there? things like cider, lager, bitter, wines. basically everything except spirits, because they haven't yet er discovered how to make low alcohol spirits . a bit of a, yes it's a bit of a misnomer, yes misnomer, yes. so, this is, this is just one week, are you expecting people to continue after they've er, they've sampled the delights of, of the low alcohol? well, we'd like to think that er people, once they've been introduced to these different sorts of drinks, and become a bit more aware about different sensible levels, would actually be interested in buying them in the future and trying them out themselves. and also other community centres er, have decided to take on such a project, as debbie'll say. that's right. well the city in fact has twenty one community centres, most of which have bars, some of them only have small bars that open maybe once a week, others have very large bars, and especially the ones with the larger bars i think are willing to take on such a project. and obviously it reaches an awful lot of people, because community centres cater for all ages. so if people are going into their community centre over the next week, they can expect to, to see part of this campaign? that's right, in northway. thank you both. thank you. thank you. four british muslims freed by saddam hussein from captivity in iraq, have just arrived back in england, the wife of one of them says she's overjoyed at the news. amur abdullah from ilford in essex is one of the first british adult hostages to be released from the country since the gulf crisis began. his relief comes after, his release comes after persuasion by the former singer, cat stevens, now britain's muslim leader, yusef islam. abdullah's wife, norjan and two daughters, were allowed to leave iraq last month after the family was taken hostage while on a pilg pilgrimage; she says the news of his release came as a great shock. he's coping very well, he knows that we are with him all the way, and he knows that we love him, and he's worried about the children and myself, but he was coping very well. he had a lot of worries because my daughter has been very very ill, and er he was really worried about my daughter, but otherwise he was okay. how has it been for yourself, obviously you've been here with your children, your husband's been away for more than a month, in iraq, there must have been er terrible thoughts going through you mind at certain times? i had a very very hard time just to look after my ill daughter, and i was trying to get help from everybody, but er i had a tremendous help er the neighbours were very good with me, the relations, my husband's friends at work, er and er my own sisters and my brothers and their wives and my, my mum and dad, so i had a lot of support from everybody. what was it like when you got the news that er your husband was coming home? i just couldn't believe it, it was, er, i just felt very very happy and i just break into tears, i just start crying, and i think it's tremendous, erm news, i just want to see him safe home. i have still got the thoughts and prayers for others who are left in iraq, who are very ill and very, very old, and er i hope they will be with their family like my husband is going to come with me today, and i think it's a very very happy news. it's twenty two minutes to seven. the head of social services in oxfordshire has welcomed news that inspectors are considering a nationwide enquiry into the running of children's homes. it follows a series of scandals involving alleged physical abuse, drug taking and prostitution in homes around the country. ian white says he's not surprised that his colleagues are looking into the matter. at the moment there are, in two areas of the country, big problems with er two children's homes that the inspectors are already looking into. but nationally, directors of social services have identified that the trends in child care are such now, as to create serious concern that the children's homes themselves are geared up to the kind of er tasks that now face them. and i would welcome such an inspection and report. the social services inspectors are warning of physical abuse of children, drug taking and prostitution, that's quite serious isn't it? yes it is. and in, certainly in the two cases that i've just mentioned, those were the key worries that they had; but i would hazard a guess and say those are the exceptions to the rule. what most directors of social services are worried about is that the group of children that we're now finding in children's homes, are so disturbed, because of their past family backgrounds er and so, so problematic er with their behaviour, er that they're now concerned to make sure that the children's homes of the future are properly geared up to deal with the very difficult group of children. presumably we don't have problems as serious as this in oxfordshire? not as in the scandalous cases elsewhere in the country, no. but the types of children that i've just told you about, the answer's yes. er we've got some very disturbed children in oxfordshire who need all sorts of help, which don't necessarily get provided for at the moment. how are you going about providing that help? well we're doing a number of things. firstly, we are, we're trying to ensure that wherever possible, children don't come into care, and we're spending a lot more money than we used to in keeping out of care; helping families etc. secondly, children in care, we're helping them get out of care as fast as they can, and we're helping them get set up properly, with proper support and so on. thirdly, we're trying to make sure that children who can best benefit by foster care, er do get foster parents, and we've had a big er initiative this last twelve months, you probably know about, and that's paying off, and we hope in the future only children going into residential homes who need residential care will get there. you're listening to the fox report, it's nineteen minutes to seven, i'm jane markham. still to come: a look at lester piggott's first day back as a jockey, plus the rest of the day's sports news. first, financial report, with halpern er woolf keeping oxfordshire in business. the london stockmarket was very much in recovery mood advancing throughout the morning, at one stage it was up twenty five points. a bright start on wall street due to reduced gulf worries and falling, falling oil prices, encouraged london. however, comments by the american banker's president that u s industry must shed more jobs, saw wall street lose thirty four points. once again london caught the gold, and by the close, the footsie one hundred was up one point five at two one o one point nine. on the foreign exchanges, the pound lost ground, both the dollar and the mark, closing the day down two cents at one dollar point nine five two five, and down almost three pfennigs to two deutschmarks point nine seven two six. today's shares: abbey national down one at two two seven point five, british aerospace up six at five four five, british airways unchanged at a hundred and thirty seven, british gas went down two point five to two two three, while british telecom went down one to two seven five, the goodhead publishing group stayed at fifty eight, metalbox unchanged at one o eight eight, morland brewers went down two to two hundred and sixty eight, but oxford instruments stayed at two hundred and thirty, thames water down four at two two eight, trustee savings bank up two point five at a hundred and thirty seven point five, and today's major movers, reuters up twenty four at seven hundred and thirteen, and bass up ten at one o four six. you're listening to the fox report. lester piggott today returned to the saddle after a five year exile in which he's concentrated on training. the bookies have been inundated with bets ranging from how he'll do this afternoon, to er whether he's likely to become champion jockey again. mickey, what do you reckon, is he going to be champion jockey ever? i don't think so, not again, but i am annoyed with him jane, because i lost a fiver today plus tax on his first mount; that was lupesku , that came in at second at five to one, he then rode balasinya and patricia, i think they're still running jane. but i'm very disappointed about that, because er coming into the final furlong, lester was going very well on the inside, but just lost out on the photo finish. i think he held the reins back and smiled at the camera; so long since he did it. but i don't think he's going to be a champion jockey again, it's too much for him now. he has been, let's mention his credentials, eleven times champion jockey, ridden over four thousand three hundred winners, including over twenty nine classics, or indeed twenty nine classics, and they are the one thousand guineas, two thousand guineas, the derby, the oaks and the st fox leger. well, that's quite a list. i mean, he's, he's fifty five isn't he, i mean it's unlikely that he's going to really be in the same, in the same league as cawson or somebody who's, who's no age at all? it's stamina jane, he has a diet of about six cigars plus black coffee. coo, i don't want to be a jockey at all. but er in france, there are, there are sixty year old, seventy year old jockeys, but he will win a race because all jockeys win races, i mean it doesn't matter how good they are, sometime or other they do win. probably he'll ride in one where all the rest fall off. the bookies are probably quite pleased to have him back because he's got a very loyal following of er, of people who'll put bets on him oh yes, he's always the housewive's favourite. when it's the derby or any classic, they all chuck their money on him, i mean i did today, so my bookie will probably go off to tenerife next week. i wouldn't be surprised. right, well tonight at the manor — oxford under fifteens are facing their reading can't, counterparts in the second round of the english schools football association cup. manager of the oxford side is hugh jennings, who has high hopes his side can emulate past exploits of the oxford youngsters. the english schools trophy is effectively the schoolboy f a cup, played for by about two hundred district teams throughout the country, and ending with a two legged final, at which oxford have appeared on four different occasions; the earliest back in nineteen o eight, and the most recent in nineteen seventy four, when unfortunately, as with all the previous three, we were defeated, on that occasion by manchester boys, yet er the home leg was played in front of a crowd of twelve thousand people, which was the highest recorded crowd at the manor that season. okay mickey, it's a, it's a monday night, had to think there for a minute. what, what are you up to this evening on the sport front? well i'll be going up to watch that match that hugh's just been talking about. i mean, twelve thousand at the manor? i can't believe it — there'll probably be a few hundred there tonight though. but other news locally: aylesbury united, they've been drawn away to dagenham in the fourth qualifying round of the f a cup, and that match will be, and i've checked this out, dagenham play at the victoria road, and that'll be on saturday the twenty seventh of october. last year of course they did superbly, they beat southend who were then in the fourth division, and look what's happened to them, they've gone up to the third division. before losing out to northampton who were bullies, i was at that match at buckingham road and i thought they were bullies, especially bobby barnes, not the wrestler, used to play for west ham, but he plays for northampton now, he's gone now, but they were, they, they were naughty. i thought you were getting yourself into trouble there again, but you tell me he can't be listening to you . i think he's gone up north. yes fine. the chairman of oxford united, kevin maxwell, says unless he gets planning permission for a new twenty two thousand seater stadium, the club is going to have to close. plans for the leisure complex in blackbird leys were released at the end of last week, and if planning permission is granted, it would include a bowling alley, restaurants, bars and a health and fitness centre. mr maxwell says ‘it's the club's last chance’. if we don't get er permission, then er the club will cease to exist in oxford. is that definite? that's definite yes. i mean, it's, it's er, it's er very regrettable that it literally takes er a very good er cup er run for oxford to stand any chance of breaking even in a season, and if you consistently lose anywhere between ten and fourteen thousand pounds a week, er it's almost inevitable that you will have to close. so is it your last attempt at er trying to retain professional football in oxford? it's very much the last attempt — not er, not for, from the point of view of negotiating or er, but, but simply a matter of fact, er we need erm we need to move, we need to have additional sources of, sources of income, that er the type of facility that we're looking to build will give the club to put it on a firm financial footing, and at the same time to give the local people of the city and er the, the surrounding county er tremendous new facilities. do you think there's enough support in oxford for you to be able to fill a stadium like that? aah, now that's er, that's the er sixty four thousand dollar question. i'm very confident that if er we have er the best first class facilities and that we can actually attract er new supporters, we can attract their families and we can actually look after er children, we can look after anybody er that wants to either come to the game er with their family or friends. er. i'm quite positive that if we provide the facilities, people will come to watch. what about local businesses, are they going to be getting involved, are you going to be asking for involvement from local businesses? very much so, because er this is going to be a, a very substantial complex, er i think that er the involvement of the local community and local business can involve, can, can start with simply the construction, can go on to er the different, er the different types of businesses, i mean i'm not, i'm not in for instance in the licensed trade, but we're certainly going to need people who are in that business, we're going to need restaurateurs, we're going to need er all types of local business, businesses to actually get that centre er thriving. you're listening to the fox report. composer and conductor leonard bernstein, who's passion and flamboyance ignited audiences around the world for decades, has died in new york at the age of seventy two. he was america's most prominent conductor and known for compositions from symphonies to musicals; his most famous was west side story. paul woodley sends this tribute from new york. for nearly fifty years he'd worked with the new york philharmonic, the orchestra's manager, nick webster, was one of the first to pay tribute to his talent at america's best known classical musician. we at the philharmonic, er lennie's family are especially sorry to see him go, he meant a tremendous amount to all of us. the passion, the energy, the excitement that he brought was extraordinary, was, was special beyond words. leonard bernstein started on the road to fame in the early nineteen forties when he was assistant conductor with the new york philharmonic at the age of just twenty five. the regular conductor bruno walder was taken ill, and bernstein suffering from a hangover had to take over for a sunday afternoon concert broadcast on radio across america; he captivated the audience and the critics, as much with his conducting prowess as with his gyrations on the podium which earned him the nickname ‘leaping lennie’. it wasn't classical music that brought him his widest audience, but musicals like ‘on the town’, ‘candide’ and ‘west side story’. stage shows made leonard bernstein a very rich man, but he said he cared little for the money, his great love was for the music. money means absolutely nothing to me. i mean as long as i have enough to take care of this house and my children, that's alright. it never occurs to me to want any more; i sign contracts without reading them. but when it came to music, he was a perfectionist, never satisfied to rest on his fame, he once said ‘when i give the perfect performance, then i will die’. leonard bernstein dead at the age of seventy two. traffic is still slow moving on the m twenty five between junctions fifteen and sixteen clockwise, that's between the m four and the m forty. on the m forty between junctions four and five, that's between high wycombe and stokenchurch, there are two narrow lanes in both directions, with a contraflow for a short stretch about midway between the two junctions, and it also is down to single line traffic at times, as required. a forty one, high street aylesbury, there are restrictions for traffic and galley lane, great brickhill, in buckinghamshire is closed. in oxfordshire on the a forty three at weston on the green, there are lane closures there, that's between bicester and banbury, and on the a forty one london road, bicester, there's some resurfacing work taking place, and that's causing restrictions to traffic going both ways. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and i've no problems to report on either or trains. oxfordshire county council has picked up two of this year's oxford preservation trust environmental awards; the accolades aren't given lightly, and moira haines from the preservation trust says the county council's awards are well deserved. we also look at new buildings as well as refurbished ones, and the county council have actually got an award in both categories. so why exactly did the county council get its honours, for what specific buildings? well they got, there are three categories of award; there's a plaque which is the ultimate honour, and sometimes we don't ever award any, there are certificates and there are letters of commendation. well the county made certificates for the polytechnic phase two student hostels off john garne way, er that actually for phase one was about the last time they got an award at all, and er the panel were very pleased with those, they said they had a nice community feel, and yet the occupants had some privacy, they thought they, and they were pleased to see how well phase one had weathered as well . and then, that was the new building, the refurbishment was for the county hall. now you could say that was perhaps maintenance, but it's all been cleaned, it's been repointed, there are new lanterns, they've done all the paintwork and they made such a beautiful job of it, it's really almost for the craftsmanship and the care that we gave them a certificate for that as well. how important are these awards? quite important, because we only give them for buildings which the public can see. it's no good doing the most lovely building right down a drive where no-one can see it, so it's part of the environment for all of us. and er it, it's much pleasanter to work and to look at a pleasant environment than something that, that isn't. i mean we gave a certificate for st aldate's courtyard for instance, because we felt it looked really very nice and so much better than the office block across the road. you're listening to the fox report. six hundred thousand people in this country own video cameras, and a new programme by granada television, called ‘you've been framed’ is looking for your classic moments caught by the video camera. irene daniels, who's the programme's researcher says ‘if you have a clip that makes you and your family laugh, then it's odds on it'll make other people laugh too’. of the clips she's received so far, her favourite involves doreen and her dog. she took her great dane puppy for a walk for the first time, when i say she was a puppy, she was huge. she took her to, to the sands and let her off the lead and she went bounding off, and she looked even funnier actually because she, er doreen the owner had three little yorkshire terriers who made penny look even more huge. and then she came bounding back and couldn't stop herself, went straight into doreen, knocked doreen off her legs completely, and she was just sprawled out on all fours, it was just hilarious, we, in fact we did an action replay on that because you had to see it again to believe it. but doreen was fine afterwards, i mean that's something else that we're very careful about, we, we would never show any clips where people are really hurt. particularly er children or animals who have no say in it at all, we, we take the view that er it's a family show and we take that responsibility very carefully and very seriously. mm, because you, you erm have er the, obviously that you could be sent some dubious tapes? yes, we have, i mean other types of, of clips that we wouldn't show for different reasons, for instance we, we got one last week where a chap was decorating his lounge and he'd locked the camera off on himself, but he had no clothes on, nothing funny happened, he was just decorating with no clothes on. it gave us a bit of a giggle in the office, but i have to say it's not the sort of thing that we would show to the public. mm, not the something that's sort of, funny that happened by mistake, something that was rather planned in that case that was very planned, and, and on that subject of planned and set up clips, i know er it may be tempting for people to do that, er but can i just say that we, you just get a gut reaction for anything that's planned, it might even be cleverly done, but you can't actually rationalise it, you just know if something's not, not real, not, not accidental, so er i wouldn't really encourage people to, to do set up pieces. if you've a classic clip, then ‘you've been framed’, granada television in manchester is looking forward to it; send it to irene daniels. and that was the fox report for monday the fifteenth of october 1990. drugs was found during a routine search by customs officers; the heroin was concealed under textiles in the back of the turkish owned vehicle. it brings the total amount of heroin seized by customs officers in kent this week to over a hundred kilos, two million pounds worth was seized from a car at sheerness; a fifty three year old turk,nemet hanifi kaboulu has been charged with importing heroin, he'll appear before magistrates in the morning. leon robbins, i r n, dover. doctors say most people in britain are likely to be drinking dirty tap water. a study from the british medical association says levels of contamination from pesticides are rarely deadly, but it calls for more research into long term effects. here's judy sedgewick. chairman of the working party which produced the report, sir christopher booth says he wants the government to impose tougher controls on the water industry. most of the population do have a low level exposure to pesticide residues in tap water. we therefore recommend that there should be a graded timetable reduction in the use of conventional pesticides, particularly where alternatives are available. but food minister, david maclean, has dismissed the report as outmoded, vague and inaccurate. neil kinnock and mrs thatcher have clashed in the commons over britain's entry into the european exchange rate mechanism. mr kinnock says the prime minister is too frightened to debate the issue. peter murphy reports. mr kinnock said the prime minister had set the madrid conditions for entry, they had not been met, so she'd caved in, he added. isn't it now obvious mr speaker that her own personal position on this issue is utterly impossible to justify, and that she's just plain ‘frit’. mrs thatcher rejected the charge, making it clear it was the chancellor's responsibility. unlike the right honourable gentleman, i have a most excellent chancellor, an excellent , a superb labour m p's jeered; after all it was a year ago that mrs thatcher heaped similar praise on nigel lawson, just before he quit. peter murphy, i r n, westminster. the chancellor's parliamentary private secretary has resigned. mp tony fable says he's quit so he can have his say on europe. he says he has the greatest respect for the chancellor, but wants the freedom as a back bencher to speak openly about his views. hundreds of british lorry drivers are still stranded in europe tonight because of a violent blockade on the border between france and spain. spanish lorry drivers started the blockade as a protest over rising petrol prices, then their french counterparts retaliated by blocking their side of the border. owner of a cheltenham haulage firm, ralph davis, says his drivers are trapped and the situation is nasty. it's very violent, there's people been injured, trucks have been burnt and damaged and a lot of tyres have been spiked and er you know, generally it's like a riot on, on the border, but the rest of spain, it's, it's fairly peaceful, but all the roads are blockaded; the drivers only problems are — where they're getting stopped, is the facilities, they don't have any. foreign secretary, douglas hurd, has failed to win a new deal for palestinians from the israeli prime minister, yitsak shamir. mr shamir refused to reverse his decision not to allow the united nations to investigate the killing of at least nineteen arabs by israeli security forces. the first pack of desert rats is now trying to cope with the soaring heat of saudi arabia; about four hundred troops in the seventh armoured brigade began arriving there today in an air lift from germany. from saudi, i r n's phil edwards. the first plane load of desert rats was met by the brigade's commanding officer, brigadier patrick cordingly. he arrived before them to coordinate their integration into the first u s marine expeditionary force; he says the first task for his men will be acclimatisation with desert temperatures still in the high nineties. we're all ready for them to go. conditions are jolly hot there, and they're going to have to get used to that quite quickly, the big thing is to get them through and out into the desert as quickly as possible. the men are now looking forward to saturday when the first challenger tanks arrive; it's these that'll play a key role in any ground battles should war become unavoidable. phil edwards, i r n, saudi arabia. independent radio news. it's tuesday the sixteenth of october 1990. first a look at some of today's main stories in some more detail. a report just released by the british medical association, is warning that most people in britain are likely to be drinking, be drinking contaminated water. the study —‘pesticides, chemicals and public health’ argues that although the levels are rarely fatal, little is known about the risks to health from long term exposure. the b m a wants tougher controls on the use of pesticides; sir christopher booth, the chairman of the working party which produced the report, also wants the department of health to set up a pesticide incident monitoring unit, in addition to a reduction in the use of chemicals. i don't think we can say poisons, that, that implies that it's damaging health, we don't know that. what we do know is that most of the population do have a low level exposure to pesticide residues in tap water. our problem is that we don't know whether long term exposure to those levels is in fact hazardous or not, we just don't know. and the position we take, er as doctors advising the public here, is obviously to err on the side of prudence, and we therefore recommend that there should be er a graded timetable reduction in the use of conventional pesticides, particularly where alternatives are available. what sort of chemicals are we actually talking about? well all the sort of chemicals that are sprayed onto crops, are used for food preservation, and there are a wide range of them. i'd rather not er deal with them individually by name because many of them are comm, commercial products, but er there are a wide range of them as you know, that are used in commercial food production. in concentrated forms, they can, these can actually have very serious effects on people's health. well, we hope that it doesn't, er but of course if pesticides and other chemicals are misused, and, and er, er are used in ways which, which are not recommended by manufacturers, yes, they can be harmful, that's quite right. it's six minutes past six. today is world food day; it's been launched by the united nations as a reminder of the crisis of poverty and hunger in the developing world. refugees are particularly vulnerable to the dangers of these situations; the world refugee population is around twenty five million. but the u n high commission, responsible for their care, has a budget deficit of forty million dollars. the refugee studies programme at oxford has announced it'll be holding a symposium on the food crisis in march. lucy bonner has this report. governments who take in refugees, refugee organisations and u n representatives are among those invited to the symposium which will address the food crisis. according to dr barbara harold-bond, a major problem is who carries the can. we're trying to raise the question —‘who is responsible, who would i sue if all my children died in a camp on the thai-kampuchia border, who would be liable for, for those deaths, er if i'm there totally dependent on food aid, and the international community says it's feeding me and they're not?’ so you'll be urging governments to do more? we'll certainly be urging them to do more, and we'll be urging them to do it more efficiently, and we'll be urging them to be much more accountable. i mean, do you know how many people die in a refugee camp? well it's not surprising because these kinds of records are hardly ever available; if there's research, usually it's kept classified, because research isn't actually done on mortality and morbidity; there isn't accountability in the international food aid system to refugees. the refugees kept in the camps face many crises of diet; not only is it not balanced in some cases, but it may also not arrive on time, causing disease and death. one month you might get the beans, they might get through, another month, the rice might get through, another month you might get two months of oil. but you can imagine running your household on that kind of a system, supposing you got the whole food basket, and supposing it was adequate, could you make your children eat the same thing day after day, after day after day. of course, you couldn't, but poor little severely malnourished children are often given a, a kind of gruel which might be healthy, but to get them to eat it is very difficult, so kids, lots of things happen and . so we're hoping to address all these issues and er and also to try to bring people back to the awareness that food is a basic human right, the right to eat is a basic human right and, and that we have to find ways to make sure people enjoy that basic human right. you're listening to the fox report. if the foreign secretary and witney m p, douglas hurd, thought he was going to get any change from the israeli government, he now knows he was wrong. after three hours of talks in jerusalem with prime minister yitsak shamir and foreign minister david levy, he came away with little more that a promise of more talks about the plight of the palestinians. from jerusalem, defence correspondent, paul maurice. for days mr hurd has been criticising the israelis for the harsh treatment of the palestinians, so it was only politic of the government here to invite him to the yadvashim memorial to the holocaust. it was almost as if the israelis were saying ‘if you think the palestinians are suffering, see how more than six million of our people died at the hands of the nazis’. within minutes of leaving the museum, mr hurd was in deep conversation with the foreign minister, mr david levy; the two hour session was conducted through interpreters, but mr hurd and mr levy had a long conversation afterwards in french which both of them speak fluently. but it was plain afterwards that the israelis had not moved one tiny step closer to accepting the united nations commission of enquiry into the temple mount killings last week. they have more er discussions at a senior level er of these particular problems, that there is in fact scope for a useful political dialogue. at the end of the news conference mr levy was asked a question in hebrew, to which he replied in the same language; there was no translation, and mr hurd was forced to summon a member of the british embassy staff to translate. whether designed or not, most observers took this as yet another snub to the foreign secretary. in hebrew, mr levy had spelt out the case for not accepting the commission, because jerusalem is the israeli capital, and as such, shootings were a domestic matter. but he added that the internal enquiry would publish its findings shortly. you're listening to the fox report, it's ten minutes past six, i'm jane markham. you can expect delays on the a thirty four between botley and hinksey hill, where there are long term roadworks affecting southbound traffic. banbury town centre, it's the michaelmas street fair on from today until saturday; there are various road closures and some traffic is being diverted, so that's causing a bit of extra congestion to banbury town centre. over in buckinghamshire, galley lane great brickhill, that's closed for roadworks. and on the m forty, between junctions four and five, that's between high wycombe and stokenchurch, it's down to two narrow lanes in both directions, and a contraflow system for a short stretch about midway between the two junctions, also that's down to single line traffic at times, so that could slow you down quite a lot. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and so far the buses and the trains seem to be running rather well. still to come: the royal pioneers from bicester are on their way to back up the desert rats in the gulf. it's a young platoon, it's a young company, so, er yes they should enjoy it, it'll be an experience that they'll not get er anywhere else. now with a look at the day's local news, here's paul kirby. the health minister, virginia bottomley has said in the house of commons this afternoon that haemophiliacs who contracted the h i v virus through imported blood products, cannot expect further compensation. around a third of haemophiliacs are treated by health specialists in the oxford region. conservative m p, patrick cormack, asked the health minister at question time, ‘if the government believes in action not words, then would she accept that action so far was unsatisfactory.’ the fact is that there was no case of neglect in these particular cases. we accept the very great tragedy, and that's why such significant resources have been made available to those families who were so grievously affected, amounting to an average of twenty eight thousand pounds each. but it cannot be accepted that every time there is a tragedy in the health service, where there has been no professional neglect, that instantly there should be compensation. the implications for us all and for all health care would be enormous. there's been an accident on the a four twenty three road near banbury. a four year old child was taken to the horton general hospital in the town, with cuts to his face; three other people were also taken to the hospital, one with a suspected broken pelvis. and there have been two burglaries in bicester; last night a ford truck was stolen and ten and a half thousand pounds' worth of roofing was stolen from a roofing supply store. oxford crown court has heard how two masked men allegedly stole seven thousand pounds after terrifying cashiers at a dairy in banbury. forty one year old antiques dealer, albert street, and director, fred, decorator, fred holden aged forty three, both deny robbery and the unlawful possession of firearms. lucy bonner reports. the prosecution alleges the two men helped themselves to cash, having forced the two cashiers to lie on the floor at gunpoint. it's claimed the pair then escaped to streetshome at lexton house in middleton cheney, but both were found out two days later when they attempted to buy antiques and jewellery with used notes which had been marked. the prosecution also claims the men produced false alibis, not realising they had been captured on police video at streetshome on the day of the alleged raid, the case continues. fox f m news, paul kirby reporting. it's a quarter past six. leaders of britain's freight industry are calling on the european commission to help free u k truck drivers trapped by road blocks on the french spanish border. the freight and transport association wants the e c to step in after french lorry drivers put up blockades in retaliation at protests by their spanish counterparts over fuel prices. spanish truckers are virtually holding hundreds of british lorry drivers hostage, and many of those trapped are too scared to leave. this report from james baize. spanish drivers are threatening to slash the wheels of any trucks which try to break the blockade. they've also blocked off the railway line, and british drivers say they've been threatened at knife point. john walraven from faversham in kent has been stuck at a border customs post for eight days. we can't go nowhere. we are all a little bit down, you know, so we, we can't go nowhere. there's a lot going on, but we, we're not getting involved, the safest thing is to keep out of sight, you know? have you heard reports of violence against english drivers? oh yes, anything that moves, has, has had their tyres slashed. there's two vehicles out there, and out of fourteen wheels, they've had ten each slashed. press attache at the madrid embassy, roy osborne, says they're doing all they can to help the stranded britons, but he says conditions at the border are getting worse. certainly it's, it's, it's tricky for them, obviously we don't know how long this strikes going to continue, and people in the area are facing er some initial food shortages, and basic commodities which would normally be moved by road, and indeed even as far as bilbao this morning, there are a shortage of reported, of a, of basic necessities like milk and bread. er. obviously if you're stuck at the border post it's much smaller and therefore conditions will be that much worse, because erm the border's not just capable of coping with this kind of number of people stranded where they are. diplomats have offered the british drivers accommodation away from the border town of irun , but they've all opted so far, to stay with their vehicles. you're listening to the fox report. a local army regiment has left an oxfordshire air base this afternoon for the gulf. the royal pioneers from bicester are heading for saudi arabia to carry out logistics operations in support of the famous desert rats. the pioneers will by now have completed the first leg of their journey to cyprus. paul kirby reports. the one hundred and sixty strong pioneers left r a f brize norton early this afternoon; they'll be joining major colin code who went a few days ago. second in command, paul hancock, says they'll be acting as back up to the desert rats at bases in the north-east of saudi arabia. primarily, it'll be defence and security for the logistic installations, erm, dumps of ammunition and, and other stocks, as well as er guarding some of the headquarters locations. secondary we provide specialised labour to the ordnance, that's the supply services, to the transport services, to the engineers and to the medical services. the men aged from eighteen to twenty five, and are mainly new to service abroad, but captain hancock says his men are ready for the gulf. well we've had three weeks of normal work up training; the guys are well aware of what the role's going to be out there, and we have practised normal training, normal multi-training we've just revised, we're all trained soldiers, and that's how far we've gone. platoon sergeant gary howarth says ‘all the men are looking forward to the experience’. it's a young platoon, it's a young company, so, er yes, they should enjoy it, it'll be an experience that they'll not get er anywhere else. but the men are also leaving loved ones behind. they're not expecting to return until easter, and private mccutcheon's wife, julie, says she'll find it hard to cope without him. i feel quite sad, and i'm going to miss him, because he's never been away as long as six months before. are you going to write a lot? oh of course, yes,you know, fifteen letters a day sort of thing, that'll be about it, yes. this is the fox report, it's nineteen minutes past six. it's been a lively afternoon in parliament, here's sally arthy. letters have been flying between number ten and mr kinnock's office over a commons debate on britain's entry into the exchange rate mechanism. the labour leader wants mrs thatcher to address the house; the prime minister says her chancellor john major should do it, at question time this afternoon, mr kinnock brought the matter up again. does the prime minister recall that on twentieth september, she was adamant in her own words, that the madrid conditions won't be changed and that they include getting inflation near to the european average. will she tell us whatever happened in the following two weeks to make her completely cave in. mrs thatcher replied that the government could have waited for inflation to come down. conditions had been met and there was so much speculation about when we were going to go into the exchange rate mechanism, we took advantage of the excellent opportunity which, which order! order! we took advantage of the excellent opportunity of monetary conditions coming within their limits to end all the speculation about when we should go in, and go in. mr kinnock attacked again. isn't it now obvious mr speaker that her own personal position on this issue is utterly impossible to justify, and that she's just plain ‘frit’. john major had taken britain into the e r m said mrs thatcher, and so he should answer questions in the house. the prime minister then went on to praise her chancellor to shouts of ‘unassailable’ from the rowdy opposition benches. the word mrs thatcher had used to describe nigel lawson before he left the treasury. unlike the right honourable gentleman, i have a most excellent chancellor, an , he's superb order! order! he's a superb secretary for trade and industry, and i shall be here answering questions every tuesday and thursday, and i hope one day he may know how to ask a good one. in a second challenge over entry into the e r m, the prime minister said she was amazed by the small mindedness of the opposition benches. ‘didn't they want britain to go in’ she asked. it's six twenty three. local government minister, michael portillo, has been asked to give oxfordshire special consideration when assessing grants to the county's community charge levels. mr portillo has been meeting with two leading conservative councillors from oxfordshire to discuss the impact of the poll tax on the county. conservative leader, david walden, and bloxham councillor, keith mitchell, asked the minister to bear in mind oxfordshire's extra commitment to social services, the national curriculum and increased expenditure on the county's roads. conservative leader, david walden, says they managed to convey the extent of the county's problems. we er emphasised to him the impact this would have on oxfordshire's er spending requirements and er the hope that the er spending that we get, and we get it in two ways; one is through, called the standard spending grant, that is a general grant that was given to authorities to spend as they wish, and the other is a specific grants which are given for particular purposes, and some of them cover the legislation that i have mentioned, which we are required to spend specifically on the items for which they're given. was mr portillo able to say categorically that ‘yes, oxfordshire will benefit, next time the budget is planned’. he wasn't er able to be so positive as that, but he did certainly give us the impression that er that he'd listened very carefully to what we had to say. i think there were one or two er new items of information that he had concerning oxfordshire which he didn't realise before, and he certainly gave us the impression that he would er, er take these into account when assessing the share out to oxfordshire. i think we have to say that er i would imagine that plans are well advanced for the nineteen ninety/ninety one/ninety two settlement, er so it may not be immediately that er we will get the benefit of what we said to him. but we do have a measure of optimism that they might reflect themselves in further years like ninety two/ninety three and onwards. you're listening to the fox report. one of the country's top environmental pressure groups has published details of a survey which shows horrific pollution of lakes in scotland and scandinavia caused by acid rain. the national society for clean air who've carried out the five million pound survey said power stations in eastern europe are the main cause of the problem. the society's president, sir john mason, revealed the survey's disturbing findings, he says they prove acid rain is causing pollution far greater than anyone imagined. we found that in areas of southern norway and sweden, and areas of scotland where there are hard granite rocks and thin soils, that many of the lakes and streams have shown er a progressive acidification since the industrial revolution, and that this has accelerated in recent years, until about ten years ago, when er the emissions of so2 from the u k, particularly fell, about, between about nineteen seventy and er today of about thirty or fell forty per cent drop. and that's beginning to show er up in the chemistry of the lakes and streams, some recovery of some lakes are already recovering in response to that reduction of emissions, but not all by any means. so how much damage is that causing? well quite a lot of the lakes and streams have lost their fish, of course that's the, that's the most important thing, between, particularly salmon and trout, and we have discovered that they are killed not so much by the acid, but by the aluminium which has leaked out of the soil by the acid water, the acid rain, and er that er the fish find this very hard to tolerate. they actually er attack the gills er surfaces of the fish so that they lose body salt. whose power stations are causing this? well, the er power stations all round the, northern europe are affecting it, as far as norway and sweden are concerned, er much of the pollution comes from eastern europe er and erm something like ten to twenty per cent comes from the u k as far as norway is concerned, and five to ten per cent in sweden. er. in the, in the, in the u k of course, er and in scotland, most of the acid deposition there comes from our own power stations. do think the rest of us in, in, in the western world have a duty to give them money to, to help sort out the pollution problem? i doubt whether we can afford it, i doubt whether, i think the problems are so immense, er what really means is down i think, tearing down most of their industry and rebuilding it from scratch. and er i don't know where the money would actually come from doing that. as far as east germany is concerned, no doubt western germany will take care of that now, er who could or would be able to do it for poland czechoslovakia, rumania and the soviet union, is very much more difficult to see, and of course, if the west were to rebuild all their, all their factories, er and they were all modern, and with their cheap labour force, they would then com, almost completely er destroy our industry i guess in competition so that we would have a, that would be another problem i guess. so there's really very large economic problems here. you're listening to the fox report. john duan fu suan is a roman catholic priest who's in prison in vietnam. amnesty international are unhappy about the circumstances of his conviction and they're trying to find out more about it. clare middell is from oxford's amnesty international group, clare, how much do you know about this priest? unfortunately very little, er we know he's been in prison since nineteen eighty seven and that he's been sentenced to ten years, but we haven't been able to determine er under what charge, what happened at his trial, whether he was given defence, er access to a lawyer, those kind of things, and er amnesty believes that he's been er imprisoned for his beliefs. how did you come to find out about him? er well it's been allocated to the oxford group and the central amnesty found its information through er government releases, the media in vietnam and er people from, who've left vietnam since. so what sort of thing can you do to try and get him released? we've er, at the moment we're in a campaign of letter writing where we've got er a body of people that regularly send out letters to er all the different government officials in vietnam and to the embassy in er london. er. we're also circulating a petition round, anything that's trying to get the public awareness of it. because it's, it, it can't be very easy to, to make contact with a, a regime like the vietnam regime, i mean are you hopeful that it'll actually do any good? i'm very hopeful because er, vietnam since nineteen eighty six has been under a process of economic and political reform, and they have released er a large amount of prisoners over this time, and there are still a number of prisoners, such as poets er religious people that are still in prison, who are hoping that, with their renewed effort and attention from the media, this'll er be changed. you say you don't know what he was convicted of; do you have any clues as to the sort of thing that it's likely to have been? well it, it's likely to be of charged under one of the loose clauses of anti-government er activities which really could mean anything, and so there, it's more likely to be that, and if so, we have to look at the evidence then that was used to back up this claim. have you had successes in the past using this method of, of trying to bring it to public attention? yes, it has been very successful, it does depend on the country, but it, it does work. it's pretty heavy er clockwise on the m twenty five between junctions fifteen and sixteen, that's the stretch between the m four and the m forty. on the m forty itself between junctions four and five, that's the stretch between high wycombe and stokenchurch, it's down to two narrow lanes in both directions, with a contraflow system for a short stretch about midway between the two junctions, and at times, it's down to single line traffic. a thirty four between botley and hinksey hill, you can expect delays southbound due to long term roadworks, and banbury town centre, it's the michaelmas street fair until saturday, and that means there are various road closures and some traffic being diverted. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and i've still no problems to talk to you about, about the buses or the trains. still to come, on the fox report: students from the newly reunified eastern europe, eastern germany, visit oxford, and say ‘it wouldn't be a bad place to work’. i'm quite sure that er there are teachers from that part of germany who would like to, to work in your country. you're listening to the fox report, it's six thirty one. customs officers at dover have made the biggest ever heroin seizure in britain; it's sixty kilos with a street value of ten million pounds. the drug was found in a container vessel under a consignment of textiles. the government is dismissing doctor's fears that millions of britons are drinking water which has been contaminated by pesticides; the food minister, david maclean, describes the british medical association report, detailing the concern as outmoded, vague and inaccurate. the chancellor's parliamentary private secretary has resigned because he wants his say on europe; mp tony favell says he's quit as john major's right-hand man so he can air his true views from the back benches. fourteen mafia bosses have been arrested by sicilian detectives after a woman's mafia godfather lover was gunned down by the organisation. police say the man was charged with drug trafficking and other, other mafia activities around sici, sicily's west coast. weather for the fox f m area: after some early evening sunshine, the night will start dry; cloud and some showery rain is going to spread in from the south er to parts of the region by dawn. the lowest temperatures — just nine degrees celsius, forty eight degrees fahrenheit. it's six thirty three. the british standards institution, kitemark, more often seen on goods like washing machines and fridges, could soon be appearing on solicitor's headed notepaper. the law society and the bsi are drawing up plans which would allow firms of solicitors to apply for a kitemark. peter taylor from banbury solicitors, hancock, says firms who were awarded kitemark won't be judged on the number of cases they win, but the quality of their work. it does mean that the way in which the case has been handled, the way in which it's been approached, the cooperation between various departments in a particular office, has been done properly, and if the client has the opportunity of winning, he will win and not lose by sloppy work in his solicitor's office. when is this all likely to, to start? it's at a very early stage at the moment, there, there is a code being drafted; it's got to go through various processes and probably won't be in general circulation till december/january. will you be applying for your er, your own er company of solicitors? i think it's, i think it's quite likely we will, most solicitors who are worth their salt will be contemplating doing so. the problem is going to be the sheer weight of administration of schemes like this, and that's going to make it very difficult for the small firm, because the solicitor sitting at his desk is his own manager, his own salesman and his own factory floor worker. he's got to fulfil all three roles, and the more managerial work going on in the office, the harder it is to find the time to do the work for the clients, which is what produces the fees. the solicitors who, who get the kitemark, where will it go — how will people see it? i think it'll be something which they can show on their headed notepaper. not outside their front door on their plaque? probably not, but it, it is, it is at such an early stage that i'm not at all sure what advertising you say to speak, can be made of it. you're listening to the fox report. this week is national chest week, a first for the heart, for the er chest, heart and stroke association. the charity is also funding many research projects, and one of the beneficiaries is the radcliffe infirmary where dr chris gerrard is chest physician. dr gerrard, what sort of things will you be researching? well we're looking at a particular condition of the lung that affects patients in intensive care; it's a disease a bit like pneumonia, it's called the adult respiratory distress syndrome, and it's a disease that we believe is associated with a lot of fluid in the lung, and a compatriot of mine, dr young, and dr mcquillam have been working on a research that er has asked the question —‘if we reduce the amount of fluid in the lung, do these patients get better and get better quicker’. and they have applied two rather unique techniques to study this question; it's a technique that's er, er rather unique to oxford, it seems that across the country, most people have looked at this particular problem of reducing the fluid in the lung. and so far, with our results, it looks as if it does not seem to have a major impact on our patients, so we may be doing something that doesn't er particularly help the patients, and this is very important since we spend a lot of time doing these sorts of er procedures in our patients. now i mentioned that this was chest week and it's the first time that the er chest, heart and stroke association have had a, a, a week specifically aimed at people with chest problems, or, or looking at chest problems. is it, is it a, a major problem, is it a major medical, medical problem? if you add up all the various er stroke and heart and lung diseases, er you account for possibly fifty or sixty per cent of all the deaths that occur in great britain each year. so it's an enormous problem, and certainly worthy of everyone's support. now lynne taylor is regional executive for the chest, heart and stroke association, lynne er is it, this is er as i said a new week, are, you hopeful that it's, it's working well? well, we want to obviously make er people aware er both of their chest, i mean we're coming in to the autumn, the winter period when er people who have er a residual chest problem will suffer far more, than say in the warmer, dryer and summer months. er. but also to make people aware of the chest, heart and stroke association, what we're trying to do, and that we're there to help people as well as being er an organisation which just hands out money to er doctors. we're there for, to give the help and advice that people need on the day to day living, er because a person with say with a respiratory illness, er would need a lot of benefits er they, their lifestyle has to change, and often their home and adaptation has to change with, around it. now your a charity aren't you? that's right, yes. how, how do you go about raising your money? ooh, various methods, er at the moment, we, there's just solely six of us throughout the whole country, that er work on appeals, er we raise money through various means er from flag days in the street to major fund raising efforts, er and events that we organise er round the country. is there anything coming up locally in the next er er november, mid november, we've got an assault course er based at bicester barracks, er army barracks in bicester, and we're inviting er various people over the age of sixteen, who live in and around the bicester and oxford areas er as well as down into aylesbury, er if they'd like to come and take part, and it'd be sponsored for the chest, heart and stroke association and the work that we do. and that's mid november? that's mid november, yes. and do, do people have to apply to the association? that's, well no, if they, if they apply either to myself or my colleague, er i am based at st edmunds hospital in northampton and my colleague is based in birmingham, er they can er, er apply for an entry form and then for the sponsorship forms. now though chris, this er is a charity and obviously you've, you've got research money from them; if there wasn't a charity like this, would you be able to do the sort of research that you're doing at the moment? well, certainly this particular piece of work would have been held up, er the salary that we're able to provide for this young researcher was absol, absolutely essential, and in great britain there is an enormous reliance on charitable funding for research, it's absolutely essential. thank you both very much. thank you. you're listening to the fox report. the reunification of germany has opened up new opportunities for many in the east, including a group of east german teachers of english who are visiting oxford this week. it's the first time they've been to britain, even though some have been teaching english for twenty years; they're staying at the oxford house school of english, and will also visit the oxford university press as the trip has been made possible by an east german publishing house. the teachers believe language teaching will now become easier for them, and say the political changes have given students fresh motivation. now they know that in listening to information given by television, on television, er on radio, they can buy newspapers produced in great britain. another er important point is that now we can make use of text books that were not available in the past, we got a lot of help from er west german publishing houses, because they provided east german english teachers with er text books, with cassettes and other teaching material, er and that will help to improve the whole teaching situation in that part of germany. do you think that education will suffer, what was east germany. i think there will be many differences in our education system now, we don't know what er system we take from west germany as you know, we have to overtake nearly everything and we have to lose many things which were quite good in our old system and now we don't have the chance to er to bring it into the connection between east and west germany, so that is one problem. but generally i think it will become better. in our own system over here, we've had people criticising the shortage of teachers; would any of you consider coming over to great britain to teach? that would be a very great challenge for us to do, especially because we have never had the chance before to think about that, but er now i think that could be, er could become reality and i'm quite sure that er there are teachers from that part of germany who would like to, to work in your country; maybe er english teachers er from east germany teaching the german language here, that's one thing i could imagine. and for many of them this would be a dream to, come true. you're listening to the fox report, i'm jane markham. still to come: lester piggott back in the saddle, back on form. well the longfellow goes for his whip on nicholas, but he's got the advantage. nicholas it is in front amiganamore and racing up towards the line, and it's nicholas, the maestro is back. financial report with halpern and woolf, keeping oxfordshire in business. early u k share gains behind firmer overseas markets were eventually replaced by minor signs of the market worried about recession. falls on wall street had a knock on effect in london and by the close, the footsie one hundred was down eighteen point three at two o eight three point six. prices of gold and other precious metals fell on rumours that saudi investors are selling gold for sterling; on the foreign exchanges the pound was fractionally down on yesterday's close, ending the day at one dollar point nine five seven five, and two deutschmarks point nine six eight five. today's shares: abbey national down four to two two three point five, british aerospace up four to five hundred and thirty nine, british airways up two at a hundred and thirty nine, british gas down five to two one eight, british telecom went down four point five, ending the day at two hundred and seventy point five, the goodhead publishing group went down two to fifty six, metalbox were up thirty seven to one one two five, morland brewers down three at two six five, oxford instruments remained at two thirty, while thames water stayed at two hundred and twenty eight and t s b were up nought point five at a hundred and thirty eight. today's major movers: wellcome up ten to four hundred and sixty eight, and glaxo down nineteen to seven hundred and forty four. you're listening to the fox report. graham taylor has announced an unchanged side for tomorrow's european qualifier against poland at wembley. mickey ianotta our sports editor is here, mickey, are you happy with who, who he's chosen? mmi well i'm happy, but i'm never happy about playing poland because it always brings back memories to me of the early seventies. now i can't remember which english player it was, either bobby moore or norman hunter, i think it was norman hunter because he played for leeds, but they made a mistake and they scored a breakaway goal. but they had this goalkeeper, do you remember him, his name was thomasescu , he was about ten foot two, eyes of blue, and he stopped everything, kevin hector had a go, alan clarke, they all did, even peter shilton in goal. it just goes to show how well he's done, he was playing in the early seventies, but we should win; what we've got to do tomorrow is not just win well, but we've got to pick up those points, we must win. it's a european qualifier and we do need the points, because poland away are always difficult. you're going to be on the edge of your seat. i trust they still haven't got their goalkeeper playing? er who, poland? yes, the one, the, the ten foot two eyes of blue bloke. well i don't know, you never know with these eastern european sides, they've always got something up their sleeve jane. okay, what about the oxford pair jim magilton and paul kee, are they going to be playing for northern ireland? well i've tried to ring billy bingham their manager today, but he can't make up his mind, he, he, apparently he's going to name his side tomorrow. i don't think paul kee will play, and to be perfectly honest, i don't think jim magilton will play, but we're going to have to wait until tomorrow; billy bingham just can't make up his mind. , well we'll have to wait for that one. now witney town are in action tonight in the first round, first leg of the southern league cup against gloucester; special guest tonight will be the sheffield wednesday manager, ron atkinson. but of a more serious nature to manager malcolm mackintosh, is their latest injury problems. we're losing dan taggart with ankle ligament trouble er caused the ache on saturday, but we, brian flannery's back after his flu bout. now you said it's going to be a tough game, so a message ‘let's get the whole of witney down there’. yes, hopefully we'll get a big crowd today, ron atkinson's coming to present the, the new strip before the game, so we're hoping for a big crowd. you're listening to the fox report. mickey, amongst the many local games tonight, i suppose you're going to be at marriott's close, are you? yes, i urge everybody in witney, put down your knives and forks, record your favourites on the video, come on down to witney, give the lads a cheer, they are playing gloucester city. ron atkinson's not the only attraction there, and they're a tough team, top of the premier division. but other games tonight: at buckingham road, aylesbury united, third from top in the vauxhall premier, they're playing the side who were top — kingstonian, so they're going to expect a crowd of nearly two thousand. and do you know what they do at buckingham jane, their nicknamed the ducks, and all their supporters have these warblers that go quack quack, so hopefully we'll hear a few of those tonight. i might hear them at witney. in the southern league cup, first round, first leg, buckingham town, the robins, they're at home to bury st edmunds,and we've always got one of these, now i know how phil angel feels on saturday. wellingborough against brackley in the hillier cup, that's being played at the dog and duck ground, i would imagine it's blow football in a pub, and finally, in the overton papers combination, pretty boring this one — watford reserves against oxford reserves. hmm, well, okay, last night mickey, you and i just about wrote off lester piggott's career, and er today, well inside the last furlong of er one of his three races i believe today, this is how rapid raceline's course commentator john penny, saw the closing stages. in the distance and it's nicholas being pressed by amigamanore , these two matching stride and the long fellow goes for his whip on nicholas, but he's got the advantage. nicholas it is in front, in front of amigamanore and racing up towards the line, and it's nicholas, the maestro is back, he's come back with that nicholas. lester piggott from amigamanore,. well there you go mickey, did you have any money on this one — i bet you didn't after what you said last night? well no, no, i didn't fancy him yesterday, he was a bit rusty, he needed a day to get back into form, but two winners; lets mention the other one, that one in the biddistone all age stakes, nicholas was there, six to four on, trained by his good lady and half and hour later, in the four o'clock,finish, shining jewel, romped home at eleven to one in the gainsborough claiming stakes, a division two race for three year olds. you know, i thought he was about fifty odd, but what i must mention jane, mustn't forget in his first race in the three o'clock, he came last on ruddy cheek. you're listening to the fox report. an emotional reunion after more than fifty years has taken place today, between two britons who were evacuated as children to the united states and their american foster mother. along with hundreds of other children, dinah and clifford matthews from totten in hampshire, were shipped across the atlantic to safety. their story forms the basis of a new exhibition at the imperial war museum. mark phillips was there. it was an emotional moment back in nineteen forty as cliff, dinah and their sister sheila waved goodbye to their family and friends and set sail for america. cliff, who was just twelve at the time, remembers it was an exciting journey. well it was during the height of the er blitz; we went in convoy from liverpool, way north up amongst the icebergs which was exciting, and er then we came down to st lawrence to montreal, and then went down to er new york, and then eventually to er, we were dispersed around the countryside, and, and er we were fortunate enough to be sent to cincinnati. the children met up with their new foster parents, bill and janet matthews. my husband went to er a meeting of the english speaking union, whatever that is, and they said there was going to be need for homes for english children. and so he said ‘well, we have three sons, all of whom were going to war, and er so we would have room for three children. of course, in england we were used to er especially at the beginning of the war, we had tea in the afternoon of course , and er when we got there it was dinner at night, with you know, meat and vegetables every night, that sort of thing, so it was quite a surprise. and, and er my tummy took a while to get used to it . i went from a er boy's school and all that that implied at the time in england, strict discipline, uniforms, that sort of thing, to er high school, a mixed high school in ohio where the atmosphere was totally different, much more relaxed, much more friendly. the concentration frankly wasn't so much on education i think, er as it was in, in er bringing people up. both cliff and dinah loved life in america so much, that although they were shipped home after the war, they both decided to move back, and they now live there with their families. the exhibition which opens today at the imperial war museum features their letters and memories of the time, along with those of their fellow atlantic evacuees. on the m twenty five between junctions fifteen and sixteen there's some heavy clockwise traffic, that's just between the m four and the m forty. the m forty itself between junctions four and five, that's between high wycombe and stokenchurch, there are two narrow lanes in both directions and a contraflow running for a short stretch about midway between the two junctions, there's also down to single line traffic at times. you might er be subject to delays on the a thirty four between botley and hinksey hill where there are some roadworks on the southbound carriageway. and banbury town centre, there's the michaelmas street fair going on until saturday, so there are some road closures and various diversions for traffic. martin lawford, a a roadwatch. and it's not been too bad in the rush hour on the er local public transport; i've no problems to report to you on either the buses or the trains. cambridge university press have just published the cambridge encyclopaedia; a one volume tome with over thirty thousand cross referenced entries. paul james, who's the publisher's marketing manager, er for their reference section, is travelling the length and breadth of the country to promote the encyclopaedia. i asked him if he didn't feel a trifle audacious in coming to oxford, home of oxford university press. well i'm not daunted i think, challenged i think is probably the word, but i think there is room in the market, i mean they have their oxford english dictionary say, which is one of their flagships you might say. we have now the cambridge encyclopaedia which is probably as important to us as the dictionary is to them, it's a really important new publication for us, and a book which there isn't really an equivalent from oxford, so i think there's room for both of us. so this, this is the very first encyclopaedia? from cambridge it is, yes, er that's actually one of its great strengths, because it isn't a thing which has been revised and added on to, it is completely new, and before we actually made it, our editor, david crystal, er actually is probably the only person in the world to have sat and read through from cover to cover four other encyclopaedias, to find out what was wrong with them, how they could be improved. and having done that daunting task, he then attempted the even more daunting task of putting all this information together into this enormous book, and it is, as you see before you, a very hefty tome. it's, it's a hefty tome, but, some encyclopaedias run to about you know, fifteen volumes, so it must have been quite an editorial job actually. it is, er it being a modern book as i say, completely new, it's, it's, it's part of the desk top publishing sort of revolution, so the actual data base is, is all held on computer, on a magnetic tape and is actually much bigger than this single volume book. but this is probably as big a book as you can get in one volume, which we wanted, we wanted a single volume handy desk top encyclopaedia. so this is as big as we could get without it falling apart, so it's a nice handleable book, though a little heavy. being on a data base, i suppose it means it'll make it slightly easier to update when you come to update it? that's, that's right, it's being updated now even as we speak. i mean the book itself is just published last, er thursday i believe it was, and er so it was up to date, is up to date until the summer, which is you know more up to date than any other book, so it's got things like: greta garbo dying, and princess eugenie being born and nelson mandela being free, and of course it's the first encyclopaedia to have all the details of nineteen eighty nine, the, the upheaval in, in europe, all the political changes and whatever. but of course the minute you put a, slap a cover on this information, it begins to, to change and people die and new governments are elected and whatever, er so yes, we are, we have in our employ someone who's sole job it is to read all the newspapers, er watch the t v, all the media and keep all the information up to date, so the, that's a full time job really and they're working on the data base day and night you're listening to the fox report. john voight, the american film star, perhaps best known for his oscar winning performance in midnight cowboy, is in oxford for a couple of days. tomorrow he's giving his first ever lecture at the university examination school, which is actually open to anyone, not just students. he's here at the invitation of jewish groups, the habad house and the oxford university, the heim society. tonight at nine, he'll be at the british premiere of his latest film at the phoenix theatre in oxford. it's his first film for five years and he told me it's been creating quite a stir, because of its subject matter. reincarnation, deja vu, astral travel, the god force, is it all true? eternity — something like that, you know?, in some way, it's a tale that in, the, that embraces those er thoughts that so many people are thinking these days, and yet i'm an old fashioned fellow, erm and i say that by saying er yes, this, this is some, somewhat of a er new age category, all these things. er. and yet really, it harkens back to er very ancient thought, er half the world of course is teaching reincarnation, and even the christian and jewish world er have in their history the teaching of reincarnation, so it's not something brand new. but erm for us, we just felt well maybe, maybe there is something to that, maybe there is a possibility, erm in that area, in, in talk, talking about eternity. do, do the themes in your film echo the sort of themes you'll be talking about at the er the lecture on wednesday. well, i'm sure that there will be some folks at the lecture that will raise those questions, i, i have so much to say and i've been making notes. i have a, a little formal statement which i've composed which says a very strong thing, and then i have you know, just a, a, quite a lot of little pieces of information that i'm composing so that people will get a, a view of me in my little journey. and er the subject matter of the, the lecture is ‘searching the heart of humanity, to find the common bond’, which is of course, it's, it's just like my film ‘eternity’, it's a huge , you know, it creates a huge expectation, but i'm not afraid to step in front of people now and, and er you know, present myself and say ‘well let's ask the big question, let's, let's go for it, so er so it should be quite a lot of fun tomorrow. although these subjects are quite imposing, i think that er that both events are going to be a lot of fun, that the movie's a love story basically and er it also has a lot of humour in it and fun, and the lecture er it's not, not only quite serious in, in a sense that, with the topic, but it's also quite audacious, and i think that, that er there's an element of fun to that too. in other words, i'll tell a few anecdotes about my life, i'll expose myself to these students and the people who are interested, and well you know, what's going on with me and we, we'll have some fun, so it'll be anything but dry. and jon voight's film ‘eternity’ is premiered at the phoenix theatre at nine o'clock tonight; his lecture is tomorrow at five o'clock at the university examination school, and all are welcome. and that was the fox report for tuesday the sixteenth of october 1990. ah that's it we're we're lit up. so i'll now go all shy. erm most of the i involvement i've ever had in any kind of job has been by accident. er i've had plans. when i was younger at school i had plans to go into various different things and er th i failed miserably, which is something i started doing and seemed to continue to do to some extent. and so it was quite accidental that i started the club. it was something i wanted to do, but i i didn't know that until it started to happen, and then with the removal business too it's more or less the same kind of thing. and essentially in nineteen sixty eight sixty nine legislation changed in this country and up to that time what you had to do if you had a removals firm you had actually a licence. er it was called an a licence which allowed you to take furniture all over the country to wherever you needed to go to remove people. but if you didn't have an a licence, most firms that had got their own vehicles could get a c licence which allowed them to keep th take their own goods in er er that they used for their own practices to wherever they were going to but didn't y allow you to take anybody else's. there was a thing called a b licence which allowed you to go within about twenty five miles with somebody else's goods. so unless you'd got an a licence you couldn't be a removal man. so if you wanted to be a removal man you had to find the work to justify you having an a licence, but of course you couldn't because you hadn't got an a licence to do it with. so that's how things stood in those year in the the days before nineteen sixty nine and i in fact did learn about removals in the late sixties. i'll be telling most some of the tales about that time, and then the other tales will be about what happened to me in sixty nine when i started up, because the changing legislation s more or less said that if you had a vehicle of thirty hundredweight or less you could move an er wh whoever's furniture you liked anywhere you wanted to. so it was a breakthrough and i noticed this change in sixty eight and realized that it would be possible to do small-scale removals. oh that's nice isn't it. . there you are, a little bit of atmosphere to er . . oh we now know there's a concert starting next door. er and . er and i noticed that there was this change. but what i had also noticed was that certain firms for example that w were er th then extant, er they in fact would s er say have a three-piece moved, and you'd have a huge van would go to pick up a three-piece suite. er it would be a van that would take a a four-bedroomed house with ease. three men would go along, pick up this poor little three-piece suite, put it on the van, deliver it perhaps two hundred yards up the road. and i mean in nineteen sixty five such a job would cost te about eleven to fifteen pounds which was an anas astronomical amount of money in those days,simply because the man who had the firm had an a licence, or four or five of them, and he was in a mon a monopolistic position you see. well it was ludicrous. it was all right for big removals but not certainly for three-piece suites and the like. so that's why i started up in business. i had the club already going, was dealing with mainly young people, and as you will know young people's taste tends to vary quite considerably and very quickly, so i might well be very successful for so long and then if suddenly taste changed and i hadn't got the ability to change with the times i realized that it would be rather precarious, so i needed a second string to my bow. so that's in fact how the removals basically started. i learnt with someone else, did two years and then er that was an accident if you like that i got involved cos somebody wanted me to be involved and and it seemed the right thing at the time. and then i went on and started on my own with light removals. and in the in fact in the early days o o f o one of the things that had happened f early on was that i would do jobs on my own, and you it's amazing how many number of one-man jobs there are. somebody wants a single bed moving, somebody might want a chest of drawers moving, somebody wants some packages so there were there's quite a lot of of work of that nature wanted. but i had a problem in that very often people wanted a double wardrobe moving and of course it then needed two men. and in fact in the early stages i got one man working for me and er i went back into teaching again for a short time to help out at a school where the the the teacher was ill, and i was teaching in the morning and then doing two-man jobs in the afternoon, and he was doing one man jobs in the morning. it's quite funny really because er i used to go off i had an agreement with the headmaster at that particular time and he'd h i'd been a full time teacher with him, and he needed somebody desperately, that was the only reason obviously he wanted me back, and er i said well look i can come back but i can't get back in order to go to the assembly at first. he says, well you never managed it when you were full time anyway.. . so we had this agreement i would al arrive in a removal van just as assembly finished to start the lessons in the morning and then my removal man would come back and pick me up again at twelve o'clock so that i could then do the two-man jobs. so i had a er i got him set up for the morning jobs and then i did the afternoon jobs with him. so it started in that kind of fashion really. but because you don't know i mean i er y you can't imagine really somebody saying, oh i'm going to be a removal man i think, it sounds like a fascinating idea, and you wouldn't think it was. and you'd think, well what could be worse than lifting and carrying, and what could be more boring than doing that all day? but it it it hasn't been. it's been amazing for the very fact that everything is so different, every job is different. you aren't stuck with the same job. you may think you are, but from one house to the next that you deal with it's always different. but of course some of the jobs we do are quite strange really, and er er just as an example there were er th there was the job er when we were er moving stuff from the old school system. you remember they did the changeover five or six years ago now, and the schools were mi er were getting mix er er they were mixed sexes and they were archbishop holgate's was going to be two sexes and so was queen anne's. and at the swap over they had to swap equipment around for the reorganization. so we, on the small scale, for just bits and pieces, got m several jobs and one of them was moving stuff from the biology labs and the physics labs from archbishop's to take it all the way across town to go to queen anne's school. and i just have to go to or i just have to sort of explain that when you pack a van, you don't pack it like the advert for kitkat. you've seen the advert for kitkat haven't you where they have a little break sitting in the back of the van and the settee's on the floor and the carpet's on the floor and there's a a lamp in there and there's a piece of furni to one side. obviously if you pack your furniture in like that if you pack your furniture in in that way what you'd end up with when the van stopped all the f all the furniture would move down to one end and be squashed. so what you do is you pack it like a three-dimensional jigsaw puzzle. you start at the front with the luton over the top, and you put your boxes. you often put things like ar er like er dining chairs which have got awkward-shaped backs up there, cover them with wrappers and place them there. and then when you get to the er van proper you take things like a wardrobe and you put it edgewise on int th in against the side of the van,you'd then put a wrapper over, and then you'd put something soft like a mattress facing it, because obviously that's a shiny side and if you can put something soft into it it's not going to get scratched. you then face it with another wardrobe, or if not a wardrobe you'll face it with something like a chest of drawers and the and put a c er er a wrapper over that and then upside down on top of that th there would be a dressing table, and they would face in. and you build it across the van like that. so it's rather like a sandwich. that's one of the reasons why a removal man when he comes into the place doesn't start with one room, upstairs shall we say, and f empty that room then empty another, because he's looking for sizes and shapes that will fit. th er er s drop-leaf tables are marvellous cos you get to the end of the side of your packing you see and you might have a gap just about the right size so in you put the wrapper you put the table in and you might have a little gap like left so you get the this the you get the er ironing board and put that in there. steps, things like that. so that the whole thing doesn't move. a good removal man very often can fill a van without ever using a tie once. you have ties obviously to hold certain things in and if you've only got a van with a a third full you'll have to use the ties because there's space left over. but a good removal man can very often pack and not actually use ties because of the way he fits stuff in. and that's the secret. where do you think the mirrors would go? i'm going to test you now, you see. floor. no. i thought that once, when i did my first removal because the boss was away, and i went to a house wh and they had more more mirrors in that house than i s ever seen since, and because i was only learning and i hadn't been taught i put all the other furniture in and worried about the mirrors and worried about the mirrors and worried about the mirrors till at the end there was so much furniture in there wasn't room to put the mirrors on the floor and i had to come back a second time to actually do that because i didn't dare put them anywhere else. but i did learn later. and where w anybod any other ideas? in the wardrobe. the mattress. well done yes, ooh there she'll make a very good er in a wardrobe you see. ideal. open the door of the wardrobe, put a wrapper over the big one, put it in the back, then sandwich another one, a picture in perhaps if you've run out of things like that, till you get to the front, close the door, and you've got it all packed away neat out of the way. and it's always a good tip for a removal man to get rid of those things first. cos if he gets rid of them first then he doesn't have to worry about those things until er later which sometimes does happen. but all this is done so that it won't shift, it won't move. or if suddenly you have to halt then the whole lot doesn't come forward and squash into the next piece in front into the ne that's why it's edge on longways down so that the the wardrobe is that way edgeways on you see so that if you suddenly stop the weight of something there won't squash the the wardrobe. and you build it up. obviously if you've got a load that'll take a whole van load you build it up as high as you can. if you go to a house and you realize that it's only a very small house and it's a very big van you'll only pack it up that way because you're packing faster by doing it that way. anyway i explain all this to give you a basic idea of the principle. but when we went to arch the school at archbishop's the two lads that went, they had to pack all these various different acid carboys. they were alright, big glass things which you could surround and pack in tea chests with bits and pieces and equipment in. and they were b doing quite happily and quite merrily with all the bits and pieces they had to pack until they came to something they'd never packed before. a skeleton. . full-length articulated skellington you see. so they scratched their heads and wondered, now what on earth are we going how are we going to pack this? if you put it in a tea chest and bend its limbs then it's likely to get broken, and it wouldn't quite fit in you see d'you see it, and yes she she's jumping ahead already you see. and if you hang it up then it will swing about and could still be damaged. you can't put it anywhere cos something else would squash it. so w er we did what we've just been suggested from the front here you see. we sat it in the front seat. now m now my oh of course. my van has the driver's seat and two passenger seats. it was a summer's day, wound the window down, put the skeleton in with his elbow sticking out over the you see, and then the second man he set he sat next to it with his arm over his shoulders just to make sure he was comfortable with the with as you say, the seat belt on as well you see, to secure him, and off the lads set, all the way across hull road right the way t across to queen anne's. and at time that time er th it was before coney street was closed so they went through coney street. well you can imagine can't you? people on hull road just standing waiting for the bus, sort of idly chattering away, yes, aye you know chattering away and th am i seeing did you did you just did you see what i saw? and you can imagine the consternation down coney street where there were all these people and there was the the skeleton sitting there quite perkily right the way through town. and when we got to the other end one of the lads actually walked in and did a waltz into the school with it which the kids thought was great. but there again you see it's how you hold how would you hold a skeleton you see? it's probably the best way like that you see and walk it in er you see . well there p you see you you that's one thank you, yes. just on cue th there michael. i i always show this one to prove in fact that this is the case you see cos people sometimes don't believe my stories. he didn't s he didn't remain in the parking in the driving seat er and in fact that that's because one of the lads was er a keen photographer and er so that's actually how it did go. now that is the size of vans that i use now for light removals. er another er rather another er on that tack of course talking about er well in this case a skeleton, i had a job to do just shortly before they closed coney street off fully and e it was myse i was on my own and i had t to pick up some dummies from er a ladies' shop a dress shop. and you know many of them now are rather abstract things aren't they? well these weren't. they were very realistic were these, and there were fifty to be moved. and i had to walk about fifty yards to get to the van because it was it was in an area that had been partly pedestrianized. now you can imagine possibly the view can't you? i go in there they they're not covered with anything and i've got a naked lady in my arms. so i carried it carefully like this, arm round the waist you see and off i went up the road for about forty fifty yards and put one in. then you go back and you think, well i can't do this fifty times over. anything else you'd get as many boxes as you possibly could and carry them out in order to do the job efficiently. so the second time i went clasping them round the waist, two,you see. and you got the odd look but it wasn't too severe because at least though they had no clothes on at least you were holding them by the waist. but once you got well into the business of the removal,y one forgets, you see, and you forget exactly what you're carrying or what it appears to be that you're carrying. and at one stage i think i was carrying about three. one was slung over my shoulder one had got sort of between two limbs i suspect, holding it round the back like that, and another one was over a protrusion that just seemed handy to hold the lot, and as i walked down the street of course suddenly everybody was glancing at me and i realized what i appeared to be doing. and i went very red as well as you can imagine. you don't realize and then you thi you've got these three bodies all wrapped round me and me er sort of walking round cheerily down the road with them. so you see you do get some strange loads. er the bodies speak while you were walking along? i'm afraid not. i but it would have made me jump. i would've probably not've been here if one had started to speak. another strange job one of the younger lads did, he d he was about eighteen and er we went he went north to er north of pickering to what do they call the forestry area there? dalby. dalby forest that's it, to the dalby forest. and the job there was to pick up tray after tray of tiny little sprigs about that high in little tiny paper cardboard boxes. and they in turn were in what were rather like bakers' trays. and these were put on and then one after the other would put onto the van and they would come right up to this height. not a lot of weight as you imagine because they're all little tiny sprigs this high, and obviously what they are going to do, they were being taken to south wales where they going to start off a new little forest presumably. and we had tray after tray of these. he went there to dalby forest one day in the afternoon loaded them all up and set off for wales. it was a two-day job basically because of the time taken to get there and then come back through york again. and on the second day in the morning he was happily going down this nice sunny day on the coast road er to south wales driving away quite happily,and then suddenly and a police car came across him, came in front stopped him. so poor ben thought what on earth have i done? he couldn't think of any it was a quiet road, he'd done nothing wrong, he hadn't been speeding, and it was a lovely morning and i can't do the accent, i won't try to because it was a welshman obviously but er he came what do you think you're doing lad? ben said well i'm just driving as normal,wh what what have i done wrong? you've been breaking the law for the last ha mile and a half. at least. well what have i been doing? he said well it's a windy road, it's got double white lines. didn't you notice? he'd obviously had a bad night had this poor bloke, you know. so ben said, oh, i'm terribly sorry he said, there was nobody else on the road and i i i must admit i didn't notice whether i had. i'm very sorry. that's not good enough. it's not good enough isn't that, being sorry. you were breaking the law. er double white lines. so he tried to placate this man and he wasn't going to be placated. and as the conversation f went on a little further eventually the man said the policeman said for no accountable reason and what's your load anyway? now, you've seen the picture of the van haven't you? and how small it is, a th hund er thirty-hundredweight van. ben gave the right answer literally speaking because it said it on the sheet of paper. but when he was asked what are you carrying anyway? he said thirteen thousand fir trees. now you can imagine with a little van that size the policeman thought he was taking the mickey. and it was quite true cos there were thirteen thousand of these little t er he didn't explain the size, he just said thirteen thousand fir trees. so of course the poor welshman with not having a sense of humour booked him, and poor ben came back with a twenty-pound fine. oh we're alright then. so he er he was most upset was poor ben so i did explain to him that what he had to do with policemen if they weren't feeling too good was to try and avoid saying things er quite as straightforwardly as that. we got another job, we we often get erm er we used to g often get jobs from the yorkshire museum. but then they got their own van and they did most of them, er but then again they they a called on us and said can you come and do a little job for us? and we thought it was a bit suspicious because they have their ow they had their own van by then you see. so we went to the yorkshire museum there in the g in the gardens,willy went along, and er one er and they wanted two men instead of one. they normally wanted one man to go and er and that was it. but two men had to go. and when we got there we found out why. well it was what we had to carry you see. it was a glass case with a tarantula spider in it. it was also another glass case. i just have to look at the list of this cos i always tend to forget this. oh yes that's right with an anthill. a live anthill about this high apparently. then there was another glass case with scorpions in, live scorpions. and of course the blokes at the yorkshire museum said oh you're alright don't worry they're quite safe they're all sealed up. and as willy said at the time he says well it's alright you saying that but there's no doubt why we got the job. but that wasn't the end of it either. there was a python. i mean it was only six or seven foot long but it was a a python nevertheless in a glass case. course you can imagine how careful he was carrying it with that in it. and all they wanted it to do was to go around the corner to marygate for the winter and then we s got the same in the spring to bring it back,but by that time the python was a lot bigger. we moved it once and apparently it had to go a zoo after that cos when we moved it back it was about twelve foot long, and then of course it g grew even larger than that. so those are the kind of odd little things that help to make our job interesting and a little bit more exciting. but then of course the kind of stories i give and the ones that most people like generally speaking are the accidents i have. that's what you've come for most of you you see. now of course i'm not supposed to admit to these things, being a professional, bo b before i do admit it them as i am going to i have to say that er on an average year er year we do about one thousand five hundred jobs and in that time there will probably be about three or four claimable accidents that we'll have. last year's been better than that actually, i i think we've had about one or two. that is accidents where we genuinely do unfortunately damage something. we're covered then, the insurance pays for whatever the cover is, er and er that's how it works. now that is w er in fact it was a pretty good it's point nought three per cent i think of our our jobs er that we carry out that you can have you're allowed to have an accident which i think is a fairly good rate. i mean anybody can have an accident. i had one chap who worked for me for over two years without one accident, didn't scratch anything, did everything right, he was a wonderful conscientious man, and then one day he was carrying a big box containing some expensive crockery and he tripped on the top step of the stairs and the lot went down, the whole box went right to the bottom. and it demolished about i think about a third of what was in it. now of course what happened is that we claimed, we w went to the insurance and then they took they got a list of what was damaged and we replaced it for what he'd lost er exactly. so the man was happy enough and even at the time, he realized that er it wasn't this lad's ch er mm fault entirely, because the reason he tripped was cos the carpet was loose on top of the stairs. having said that a good removal man should have noticed that before he started. but as i say he was the most conscientious removal man and after two years when he came in he was so upset. er had had such a record, i mean if he'd smashed just er a lampshade or something like that it wouldn't have been so bad, but to actually get rid of a third of all the crockery in one fell sloop was er well it was fairly excessive. but i am going to having said that i will tell you of the few accidents that have occurred over the years, and one of them was mine in the early days when i was learning th the full size removal job. and this is the one people seem to like best i think. er it says something about human nature does this. erm you know the ring er the r er roundabout as you go down monkgate, er one one of the l the roads goes off to huntington road and the other one is is heworth green and then the other road goes off now to sainsburys. now at one time that road as it started off there were terraced houses there erm little tiny terraced houses, and they were due to be demolished. yes? it's a long ti it's a car park now for that pub on the end there. and er we went to move this lady, we got there about i suppose quarter past eight time, a summer's day, nice day it was. a huge orange and black van with the full the name of the owner on it of course, because if you want to advertise something a removal van is one of the best things in the world for putting an advert on if you want people to see it that is. and when we got there we started to pack the small things on the front, the l the luton as we call it over the cab. and then we got to the stage where we needed to get the wardrobes out. now these houses were of the kind that when you walk in through the door at the front you go into a l sitting room, through the next door is what can be a kitchen cum living room, and the staircase isn't immediately obvious but what it is is it's a door that looks like a cupboard. and you open this cupboard door you can tell there's a step at the bottom. you open what appears to be a cupboard door and in fact the stairs go around the corner and back up on themselves. now of course with wardrobes that are three foot wide it's an impossibility to get them up the stairs. funnily enough a sing a double wardrobe which is four foot wide and eighteen inches deep if you split it in half, as the old ones could be, you end up with two pieces two feet and they actually can go up the stairs cos you can just get them underneath. but with a th a single wardrobe ironically you can't get them up the stairs because soon as you reach that step you've got another step so if you were to lift it up to the next step it'll hit the top of the d doorjamb so it won't go any further. even if you got it further it's wider than the stairway which is only two foot six and the r wardrobe's three foot. so there's no way can you get them up the stairs. so it's a window job. now window jobs are easy,believe it or not. they they look spectacular but they're very easy to do if you know what you're doing. and i'll show you basically the the theory is that you go inside in fact i can show you with this this kind of window here. er don't very often have this you see when i go to talks that. but here you have a piece of beading. you take that out. you do the same to that piece there. now once the beading's free you can pull this sash out, this window frame will come forward. it's on cords. this isn't because it's set to, but normally it's on cords which go up to there up to that pulley wheel round and there's a big heavy weight inside which carries the window. it's an equivalent weight to that window frame there. so of course having pulled it out the the cord is attached with two very thick nails, and you can pull those nails out, and then get you leave go of the cord. er y you don't actually leave go of the cord straight away. if you do you need a joiner. cos if you leave d go the cord straight away the cord just goes shooting up there, the weight inside comes down here and you lose the cord and you have to take the whole lot p t apart in order to get the thing to work again. but what you do as a removal man is you get hold of the cord that you've pulled away from the side of the frame, put a knot in it, a loose knot, then leave go gently because again if you don't leave go gently if it's an old cord when it gets to the reaches the knot it'll snap and you'll still lose the weight inside . so you let go gently then you do the same on the other side, and then of course you've got this piece free. sometimes if the the piece of furniture is very large you have to do the same with the top one where there's another lap there, that one, another piece of beading there, and this will come out as well. it means you'll lose a bit of paintwork when you do the job but very u most often you can get it all back together with a few flakes of paint missing. more often than not you only need the bottom window out because most wardrobes'll go out that way you see. so that's what you've got, you've got a situation like that. then you bring your ladder that you've brought with you for the job and you put it up leaning on this windowsill, so that essentially if that's the windowsill the end of that table there, it's up to here you see with the top of the ladder just above the windowsill. you put a wrapper over the top and then off you go. this is a two-man job. you get your wardrobe, its feet are that way on, you get each side of it, you put it on there and its bottom of the wardrobe rests on top of the ladder. one man who's going to stay upstairs has the head of the wardrobe, you go tro i go trotting downstairs you see,and then i climb up the ladder and the ladder remember is over the edge of the sill. so about four rungs down from the top i stop. i'm quite well out from the ladder because it s at an angle and there in front of me is the wardrobe. all i have to do is push down, the man inside pushes up and the wardrobe slowly comes up like that. i go down one or two rungs and the wardrobe follows me. it rests at an angle, it rests on the er ladders of course because they are ang er the ladders are at an angle like that so part of the weight's taken by the actual ladders. and down you go. you trot down like this. the man at the top leaves go once you've got it well resting on the ladder and he runs down the stairs to meet you at the bottom by which time you've got to the bottom rung, he comes takes one side of the wardrobe, you take the other and that's all there is to it. done it i suppose i've done it eighty a hundred times by now but this was the first time,you see. and th it was about quarter to nine. and that roundabout in those days and probably nowadays at that time gets snarled up with traffic all going to work. we didn't help with a huge van on the foss on the foss bank there. that was holding up traffic too. so everybody was watching this. all sit there, tapping, waiting to be able to move on. and i was going up this ladder. but there was a problem. the ladder wasn't long enough. it didn't go onto the windowsill. it was about that short. about three four f foot short of the windowsill. now i knew of no better, and alan should've known better because he'd done a lot more removals than i had and he said oh you're alright neal, don't worry. just climb, i'll pass it to you, you'll get, don't worry about that neal. i said are you sure? he said yes,d so i did. i climbed up the ladder. i was too naive not to do you see. anyway i got to virtually the lat rung and of course i was smack up against the wall. i wasn't two or three foot back like this as i should have been, i was up here. the wardrobe wasn't in front of me there, it was there, you see. so he started to push. the lady who was having operation done and wanted to see a remo er er er a wardrobe come out through a window was standing down there just on the edge of the road to watch this miraculous occurrence. and he started to push did alan, and i started to go like that. i then started to put my foot to get the next rung down. and as i moved my foot about, like this, trying to find the next rung, i began to realize things weren't quite right. the ladder began to move around below me. alan was still pushing quite happily. i was bending like a banana backwards like this by this time. and i was going like this doing a little dance on the ladder trying to find the next rung and the ladder was doing a little dance on the wall. and i suddenly realized at this stage that there was going to be something rather unexpected happening. well it probably was to be expected really under the circumstances. and i was very worried because the lady that was going to be paying for the job was just down there and if we weren't careful we were going to kill her with the wardrobe. and fortunately i suddenly had inspiration, just at the last possible moment. it very rarely happens to me. but i realized that i had to do something pretty dramatic to avoid too serious an accident. so just at the last moment as the ladder began to sweep that way i just pushed as er hard as i could in the air, and the wardrobe flew up into the air in that direction, the ladder flew off in that direction, i flew off in this direction and it was a bit like a fountain, going in different directions, you know how the water comes up and goes over. and we all landed on the pavement and road together. all in one fell bang. the wardrobe when it landed didn't it hit a corner, but it didn't just crumple up, it exploded. it just went crash! and shot off into fifteen different pieces. honestly, cos i counted them when i was putting it together. we missed the lady fortunately cos it had you see that last push it just flew right over her head and past her. and i mean one had to be grateful because she was much more concerned about whether i'd hurt myself falling off the ladder than her wardrobe. she wasn't worried about her wardrobe in comparison to me having landed on the on the road, which i thought was extremely good considering that she i'd just demolished a nice piece of her f er a piece of her furniture. and of course being as it was with everybody watching, we got applause for this. you can imagine, they're all waiting there, anything t to distract you if you're waiting in a queue, and there was this man, throwing himself off ladders, chucking wardrobes everywhere and we got very good. can you do it again? i didn't see it properly that time? you know. some bright spark said by god i know what firm, i'll write i know what firm to get anyway in future. no i funnily enough i just landed er er i i i didn't hurt myself at all. i think er i don't know why but i must have just landed and done a s somersault and landed on my feet. and i was i d i said i was very sorry about the wardrobe and i'd replace it for her and see what i could do, and she said oh don't worry love as long you're you're alright that's all i'm worried about really. which was extremely good. and in fact what i did do was erm went and bought her a secondhand wardrobe, took it to her, and she was really pleased because apparently she thought it was a better one than the first one. and it was bigger and it was shinier and er so she was happy a fortnight later anyway. but er there was one bit that didn't bust. it was it was o it was a utility er now it depends on your age now, you're going to have to admit something here you see . do you remember these utility wardrobes? yes. the only solid bit was at the front. the only er solid part of the wardrobe was in fact the front part, which was made of sorry about that. which was made of wood, and the rest is plywood at the side and back. you know the kind that if you lived in a house which had got an uneven floor when you opened the door the wardrobe falls over towards you. the only time it won't fall over you is when it's full of clothes, but the problem is opening the door and getting the clothes in before it falls on you. it's one of those wardrobes, you know the kind? and it has a mirror on the back, and that was the bit that didn't break. good grief. as it fell, it hit on the corner and the door opened and the corner of the door was stressed, literally, you could see stress marks on the wood, but the mirror at the back was in one piece. now that mirror's the one that you look into when you go in the ladies' toilets. oh. in the club here. it's just the right shi size and shape. i don't like wasting things you see. it is, that is the sa it's the same mirror in fact that that came from there. we got rid of all the rubbish, put it in and started packing and erm about five minutes later the man from next door came out. and he said er ee he says, they're terrible houses these, you know. i'm going to have to move soon. i said aye they're awkward aren't they. he says aye terribly. he says, you know when i came to this house i had to have split all my furniture into little bits so i could get it up the stairs. he says, does your firm split furniture? i says, you should have been here five minutes ago, we did a marvellous job. we didn't get the job, incidentally. i think somebody must have told him. another accident we had with an a wardrobe two of my lads had which was a funny one in retrospect but i some when you carry a wardrobe,funnily enough, the easiest way often if you've got a tight corner, you know as you go round a corner in a staircase you'll come from a landing and often turn right or turn left to go down, if you put it at an angle like that then you won't get it round the corner without catching the bannister. so very often it's better to hold the wardrobe vertical and the man at the bottom end if you like holds it vertical and you go down holding it flat like that. and when you get to er to the landing you turn it round through forty five degrees and then down a little bit further and eventually you tip it over to go down the stairs. but very often you'll see wa men will wa go horizontal, then it'll go vertical round the corner, then nearly horizontal or at forty five down the stairs. and that's how you do it. but if y some of the finishes on some of the wardrobes are particularly slippery and if they're particularly slippery then i i it's difficult often. and in this particular instance, two of the lads were doing this very thing, coming down the stairs. the back of the wardrobe you always have facing the bannister of course, so that the shiny bit's on the outside so it's less likely to catch anything. er if you catch the corner of the bannister just as you're going by, usually have a wrapper over anyway, but i it it isn't going to damage. and he'd got round the corner, ready to go down to the rest of the stairs which went down, and then at the bottom turned round the corner again. and the man at the bottom missed his foot. he missed a step so he went down two instead of one. but he'd still got hold of it. but the man at the front hadn't been told this of course, naturally enough and he couldn't see that so suddenly with a jolt the wardrobe left him, two steps' worth instead of one at a time. so he shot forward, and what you are trained to do as a good removal man is you drop if you're dropping anything you drop it on your toe or on your hand. it doesn't matter if you injure yourself as long as you don't injure the customer's furniture. so his foot went down two steps, and sure enough down came the wardrobe onto his toe and didn't do any damage and then just bounced to the next step down. but having h done that and having gone off his toe, he the wardrobe wasn't in front of him so much as it was down there by now, and he'd still got hold of it you see, so because of the momentum,of going that way down two steps and one further one he shot forward and went right over the edge of the wardrobe. now of course the man at the top was depending on the man er er the man at the bottom er was depending on the man at the top to be holding it to stop the weight fall on him. well there was nothing to stop him by now, there were two weights, there was the wardrobe sliding down the stairs and the man on top of it. so he suddenly came to a halt at the bottom of this stairs as it turned the corner,with the bottom of the wardrobe rammed into his chest, pinning him to the wall. the other man nose first was sliding down towards him, and ended up nose-to-nose with the other man, with his feet up in the air at th the bottom end of the wardrobe, or what was now the top end. so there they were facing each other, the man a that being squeezed er his lungs being squeezed, the man on the wardrobe n unable to move because he was upside down virtually facing him head-to-head. the man who owned the house was laughing at all this of course, cos it did look very funny apparently. but the problem wasn't even helped there because you see he couldn't get up the stairs easily, because the wardrobe was in the way. so what he had to do, the the the the customer in fact, is end up by climbing up the bannister to get to the top so that he could get hold of the lad that was at the top get hold of him by the feet and pull him upwards and over and er finally free the man at the bottom. so you see it's a dangerous job as well. it's exciting and it's you can have all sorts . again f fortunately in this instance with that accident no damage was caused to his wardrobe and he was very happy with the removal, and highly amused by it i gather as well. so those are the kind of accidents you have. and then of course you've got the er the business of er places you're going to. er problems that you can have beset when you go to some places. we had a job which was involved in loading up the day before this is in a big van, in the previous job i i had, er er a large van fu filling it full of a houseful of furniture in the afternoon,sp spending two or three hours taking it out of store, and we were asked to deliver it to an address in new brighton. anybody know where new brighton is? it's near walla wallasey . wirral is it? . wallasey. on the wirra on the wirral. near liverpool. that's right, yes. so off we went you see. we went there, we took it with us, all this load, and what it was it was a forces couple and they were coming back to this country from germany or somewhere like that, so we hadn't seen them. they'd had the stuff for a couple of years in the store and we were going to meet them there, at number twenty five lilac avenue, new brighton. we got there for about half past twelve in the afternoon. tapped on the door, it was the last it was a cul-de-sac we found lilac avenue, number twenty five, it was the last one i the c in the cul-de-sac as it happened, number twenty five. there weren't any more, if it had been twenty seven it would have been impossible. knocked on the door, nobody there. thought, that's a bit funny. still, you see if they're coming from somewhere like southampton or wherever they might have come, maybe they were delayed on the journey and er so we went and had our half hour lunch. i rang up the boss, and said we've got the right number haven't we, lilac avenue? he says, yes, twenty five,so we were happy with that. we went back and no, still nobody there. i looked through the window and in fact there was furniture in the place. but then with services houses, very often, like the ones in york in manor drive, they're in two halves. they don't look like that but they are,thei their er their back door goes into an upstairs converted flat. so with forces families very often in those days, you might be delivering to the first floor. s still wondered about it and thought this is a little funny. then the man came out from number twenty three. what are you doing then? well, we've come to deliver this furniture for mr so-and-so at number twenty five. oh no he said, there's er there won't be any furniture moving from there or to there. i s well how do you mean? oh they're not moving. ah. i said well, well they must be we've got furniture. no no no he says, we get a lot of this kind of thing you know. i said how do you mean? he says well, he says, i'm always getting mail here for twenty three lilac avenue, new brighton. get loads of it. it's not for me. i said well it must be if it's to twenty three. oh he says no he says there's er and this was the bit that hurt. he says no th it's it's not here there's another new brighton. i said another new brighton? i didn't like to ask him . where. i'd spent all day going there hadn't i, half a day going there. spent three hours the previous day packing it. the people needed to be living in the house that night. i mean with removals you can't say well i'm going to be two days late cos the people've got to be living there. so i i said where's the where's the other new brighton? i've already done a hundred miles,where's the other ne well he said well actually it's in wales, and i thought oh no! . and i had visions of it s on the south corner of wales. anyway it wasn't that bad. it was in an area called mold, just beyond chester, about thirty forty miles on. so we whipped into the van and off we went. and believe you me, we found this little village of new brighton. it's got a main street, and i think it'd got two other streets and that's about all and sure enough one of them was lilac avenue. we got there for four. they said we are pleased to see you. i said not half as pleased as we are to see you .. . wouldn't have happened with a postcode would it? oh no, without a postcode it wouldn't. and of course it wouldn't if we'd been more accurately given the address, but the trouble was in many ways is the man that booked it had had thirty five years' experience of removals, he knew all the country you see. now i've told this tale before and some bright spark said aye but th do you know there are five in the british isles? and so i when i got back from the talk i had a look and sure enough there are, throughout the british isles there are five new brightons. there's one in leeds. so you see you you'd have gone the wrong place wouldn't you if you'd followed what i just said you see? shows you never to er . . no well er i was learning you see quickly from these things, learning fairly quickly. we went to another one on a saturday job. it was one of these jobs we were hoping it wasn't too big a load but it was a houseload, we were hoping to get mi finished for the mid-afternoon, about three o'clock in the afternoon, or four perhaps. and erm so we set off and i can't remember which village it was but it was towards the humber estuary somewhere and it was what i call a cul-de-sac village. that is, it it it petered out and that was the end of the road you see. you went off a main road went down another road and the village was at the end of a road and that was the end of it. you didn't you couldn't come out any other way, just the one way in and that was the finish of it. so we d weren't worried about that, a nice big van we'd got, it was a big one so we'd got plenty of room thirteen foot high it was, nice size van for the job, and we filled it up and plenty of space left over, off we went. when we got to within quarter of an hour q sorry quarter of a mile of the the actual village itself, and remember it's quarter of a mile i'm talking about not ten yards fifteen yards away,we saw a railway embankment in front of us. well, obviously there'd be a you know er a way underneath a tunnel underneath. there was,but it said on it twelve foot six. and our van said thirt we was thirteen foot you see. well you always know that you know when they say twelve foot six it isn't quite right, they give or take a few inches. so we edged forward and in the middle of the archway and there was about that much and it wouldn't go. cos the back end you know is is slightly higher than the front end and we'd just got it in and the front was about that so it wasn't gonna oh well can you imagine the perspiration there would be, . walking a household of furniture quarter of a mile up the road? i couldn't imagine, we could be there till sunday moving it, you know. so you let the tyres down. ooh there we are we've got some bright sparks here . . now i didn't think of that because again i was fairly new, but the lad that was doing the job said oh don't worry neal we'll sort this out. so sure enough we let the tyres down sufficiently for it to be roadworthy and not to destroy the tyres on the way there, but soft enough just so that it would go down, and we edged it through and roy got it through the middle and off we went. got to the other end and i think we were unloading in about an hour and a half or so. two hours something like that. turned it round on the way back driving merrily towards the arch very happily past the pub on the left and the playing fields where they were about to play rugby i suspect. went past the pub you see, just about to reach the archway and i said roy! for goodness' sake stop. now when you have a house full of furniture, it weighs about five tons usually. . and five tons on the back of a van causes the back of a van to go down. so there was we'd already taken the air out to get us through. we'd now no weight on the back of the van you see. . so yes. . she's jumping ahead is this. she's spoiling me stories isn't she? . . yes. i was sweating, you could imagine thinking god we're going to have to take the wheels off and drag it through with a tractor or something like that on skids, cos we needed the van for monday and there wasn't going to be a lot of t but then suddenly yes a again i suddenly th . i remembered the noise i remembered the noise as we went past the pub, so i went back to the pub and sure enough there were fifty sorry thirty burly men. it was er u er er rugby union obviously. there were at least thirty big men. i said excuse me lads, just before you start playing can you give us a hand? what is it? you know. i says well i've got a van and it's too light at the back. can you pa oh, they thought this was r great . . and they all jumped on the back and under we went. so, we did, we got our van back home again you see. had they not done it before? i would have thought it was a regular occurrence. well no we'd never had that happ . i mean you very rarely get things that close you see. mm. er but when you think about of it i i it is, it's logical. must have cost you quite a lot to buy them each a drink. oh no, they were too good-hearted, they were all yorkshiremen, john. not like you. they were . burly fellows in the van, i'd have come straight back home with them . oh dear. ah but that's another story. . that's another story. . you're lucky it wasn't a rowing club. yeah. . so that was another problem you see. so everything happens. there are always different things occurring. one of them of course is estimates. now today if you rang me up to do removals, we don't work the same way. one of the reasons by being s a small removal firm doing light removals, i'll send one, two, three men out. but if you wanted a single bed moving, then the cheapest way would be just to have one man, he comes we charge you for the time we take, with a minimum of an hour's charge. so we charge for the time we go to the first address pick the thing up go to the second unload and get back to depot. if it's done within the hour we charge the hour. if it takes an hour and five minutes, we charge an hour and a quarter to get for the time to get back. and of course if you book over the phone, then it can be done that way. but if we were doing as we do a lot of jobs like that and i had to go round and estimate every one it would cost me more to go round and estimate than it would to do the jobs. you see adverts in the press that say free estimates, well of course they aren't. if you get a firm that's doing big removals, inside the cost of that is the cost of an estimator to go around and look at half the jobs he's not going to get. he's going to give a price and somebody else is going to give a price in competition, and half the time if he's lucky he'll get the jobs. but i did learn that when i was doing full-scale removals. as i say, nowadays i get the information from you over the phone, and then when we've got somebody who said oh no, it's only a small flat,i've got this this and this and that's the big pieces of furniture, er if it's somebody that's done it on spec i say well look give me a ring back in an hour if er when you've come off the phone you er there's something you've forgotten. or sometimes if they're not sure i'll say well before we book it can you just have a run round the house and then ring me back tell me actually what there is to go. and then i can give them an idea of price, and we can work out what it's going to cost. if it's s something like that and they tell me the amount of furniture and if two thirds of the van will be filled with big stuff, and then they tell me there'll be half a dozen boxes, i assume there'll be at least four times that number of boxes, and if it's still going to go on, we'll do it. we had a job this week that was booked in er estimating i was on wasn't i? that's right yes. and erm so er er if people do that and er this this businessman, this week, he he rang and he he was sending messages via the secretary, instead of getting on the phone to me and and me finding out what there was, he finally he s he said there'll be about an hour's work. tell him there's about an hour's work. oh i think there'll be an hour's work, she said. now i know the man. so i said there's no way that what you've just told me will go in an hour, i said it'll take at least a couple of hours and what about all the small stuff he'll have in the house? so she relayed that and i heard it well what about the small stuff? oh we haven't got much. we'll take that in the car. came back again. so i said well no, i said two hours it's got to be otherwise you'll never cover for that. d i didn't want to give him a false impression. so er it was decided that he it would be one man because he would give a hand. so he only wanted o one man, and it w if i allowed two hours. i've got to make allowances you see cos i've got to fill the day f with jobs for the other lads, so if i allow two hours i've got to fill the other six. so i need to know beforehand, within half an hour or so. now we got off the phone and knowing the man i allowed three. his wife rang up the following day. could we move the piano as well at the same time? i said not with one man we can't, no. . i said we always use at least three for a piano because although two men can lift them very often if you're going round awkward corners it helps to have a third person s to steady them. so i says what we can do is i'll do an hour for you, we'll move the piano and other bits, bicycles in this case that he had, we'll shift them to the house close by, drop two men off, and one man'll come and do the remainder of the work. does that sound re ? yes, she was happy with that. i said we've got one man booked anyway for the re oh she says don't want one, he's hopeless is my husband, he'll never manage, you'd better put two men on the second half as well you see. . so i just said in passing, i said well your husband's allowed up to two hours, he thinks it's only gonna t ooh she's says it won't take that, no. good lord no it'll take more. g allow another hour will you? well i already had you see. so there we were, one hour plus three. we did the job this week. seven hours it took. . seven hours. i told them that at one we'd be going away on another job cos we'd got another job booked in, but in fact i reorganized everything so that in fact we could do it for them. but that's the kind of problem you meet. he was was quite right, it didn't take an hour. it didn't take an hour, you're right. . i'll tell him that when i see him, yes . when he's paid the bill. but that's the kind of thing that can happen, cos y people aren't aware. when i moved from my own place er in walmgate to here i still underestimated how much furniture i'd got. and it is very difficult to assess. so with the big firms, when you're doing a full house and you you aren't just going to have a few bits like you would for a light removal, off you go and you estimate. i remember going on one of the first ones with the boss. it was in poppleton. end of a cul-de-sac. and we went in the house three-bedroomed semi-detached house. walked in the lady said oh right, you can can have a look round and showed us the rooms. the two main bedrooms a small back room living room er drawing th front room and the kitchen. we saw all the furniture and my boss didn't list everything. i do. i was learning a lot over the period of making mistakes as you can imagine. so i was learning from my own mistakes and others at the time er things like getting the right county where the new brighton happen to be and things like that i was learning. and er so he didn't list it. he'd had thirty five years' experience, he was looking at th and and in his mind's eye putting the jigsaw puzzle into the van as it were to work out how much space it would take. he said right, yes, and he looked at that and is that everything? have you anything outside in the garage? well, my husband's got the key. well there's nothing much there's a bench there's a couple of tea chests there's an old cooker and i think probably five or six bo is that all? yes, that's all there is. oh fair enough, if you're sure, yes, you see. so we left and the boss told me that how he would work it out and how it would take probably something in the order of two thirds of that particular van that w we were going to use, if it was packed about six foot high. brilliant you see, he's done it for so many years can work out the space and everything. sent an estimate. now estimates are are actually that. you estimate that. but if you send an estimate you more or less have to say what you're moving as well because if there's more than that and you don't put down what you're moving then you're p stuck with the estimate really and in p practice that's what usually happens,you give an estimate and then you do it for that price. so he sent the estimate and we got the job. it was to near leeds. i went with the boss to do it so that we could follow up the practice of the theory you see. the husband was there then. we took his four- poster bed down that he wanted taking down that he cherished for some peculiar reason,and then we moved all the other bits of furniture, and as we w were sort of getting most of the furniture out of the first bedroom he said don't forget the loft will you? so we said what loft? . oh didn't my wife tell you about the loft? no no she didn't tell us about the loft. oh well would you like to go and have a look? so we went and had and there was a little space, you know normal bit bigger than average and a little hooked thing and it opened up and down came some steps and we went up with trepidation i must say. there was as much in the loft as there was on the whole first floor. my the boss said a few things under his breath, came down the steps and we went back into the van. cos we had to repack it you see because it was going to take a it was going to take probably not it was going to go right to the end with this lot on. so up it went higher. not the six foot he'd thought, seven or eight foot we went up and started to pack away again. a little bit sarcastically my boss said er to the owners there's nothing else that we haven't seen is there? .well have you seen the gar ? well your wife said there w oh well you'd better come and have a look, you see . . so we went and had a look at the garage. did it have a car in it? no, there wasn't a car. it was a two it was a two-car garage. full to the gunwales. full ? to the gunwales. oh rubbish, all sor . boxes. there was er there was the cooker er there was a cooker there was two fridges there was a disused ba er washing machine there was a and it all needed to go apparently. so of course inevitably what happened is we got the house lot in just, took it to this place in leeds, got finished with that load and back for four which is what the estimate had covered us for, and then we had to start all over again with what was in the garage. even then we were in for a surprise you see, because at the end of the you know how most houses have a rectangular plot within which the house is put? but the ones at the back aren't. on the corner of the cul-de-sac they go off at an angle don't they. and depending whether it's a rectangular plot or whether it isn't or not or if it's slightly at an angle then some of the corner houses have a fairly long gardens. well we'd seen to the back of the garden anyway cos we could see the hedge going across like that at forty five degrees. but he said to us you won't forget the stuff in the hut will you? . cos we'd had a recce by then and had a look round and you see. well we said what hut? well apparently that wasn't the end of the garden you see cos that came across like this and when you went through a gap in the hedge about another twenty yards further on in the far distance it seemed there was the hut. and when i opened the door everything fell out. . so we'd got about forty yards to march to the er the van before we even got that on board. we finished that job about ten thirty that night. and of course my boss because he hadn't listed what we'd seen was lumbered with the estimate. was lumbered with the estimate. and that's what he had to pay . for twice the amount of work. for twice the amount of work yeah. so i again it's something i learned from that. it was funny, actually it was on that one, i think he was a little bit erm sexually-orientated more than average this gentleman, cos he'd got the four poster bed. this was before they became a popular thing you know. this was an original he was very proud of this and he kept telling us about this. his wife kept a distance, she said nowt, but he was quite proud about this. but you don't get this very often now but you it's funny how sometimes you get gifts when you're on removals, and this was this particular instance. because not only had all this lot to be moved, but halfway through the removal he suddenly remembered there was something else needed moving, shot to the stairs with a white face, opened the door in under the stairs and out came all the bits and pieces from there. oh don't forget these lads, but he said i've got a present for you lads . conspiratual of tone. that th w thickness . of girlie magazines. . here you are lads, get rid of them quick won't you?. . we used to have a stock of them . they don't now with with liberated women they don't allow it now you know. the the men are no longer liberated and can have them so they just y it's quite funny but you don't get them now. it's funny how er th trends change, but that was a was quite a common occurrence was that, men feeling ashamed of what they'd got but trying er er in terms of these magazines giving them as if they were doing you a favour. and of course for some of the lads it was. they weren't there in the they weren't in this office for very long before they disappeared elsewhere . and er er but it's funny how that should happen. the corollary to that sad case actually was when after we'd moved them we got another phone call six months lad er later from this very lady who was leaving the house and moving out. she'd had enough of him obviously. magazines,four-poster bed the lot . . yes that was that was sufficient for her. and we moved her back, so we did get something else out of the job as well. do you think a four-poster's more erotic than a divan? not me personally, no i i . yes? ye no i yes i i f would have thought it could be quite obstructive in certain circumstances . . . but i wouldn't know of course. yes, maybe, i don't know. . yeah. yeah. . i've not had that ye that problem with that. yeah no i'd er . so there you ar now then we get another kind of job. this this one i'm going to tell you about are we alright for time? are you not in yes. you're alright so far? erm er this o this one is not one single job as it happens but it is the kind of thing that we have come up against before and i've put them the things together in one so that we don't identify people really under the circumstances. but . in the early stages we were we you know used to take phone calls and take them at face value, and we got a phone call like this. erm, lady's voice. er i wonder er what time do you start in the morning? so he said well we start at mm half past eight eight o'clock time usually. could you start a job at about half past nine in the morning? yes madam, no problem there. how long would it take you to get the furniture out? would you be out by midday? . i can see what's coming. . so i said well it depends how much there is you know, we we are only a light removal firm, we don't have oh no no well there's no problem there, it's only half a houseload. . now the advice a few years er be from the s solicitor was not in quite the the th precisely these words but if somebody was leaving, i mean if the wife was leaving the husband, the instructions were basically love,get your furniture out, hide it somewhere, and argue about who owns what afterwards. and that was the kind of advice some years ago was being given by solicitors. so what we were doing of course is we were moving in taking her half of the stuff and moving it out. now on one occasion, as i say this is a conglomerate this is of several things put together, but one happened rather like this. we got there round about the half past nine. hubby had gone of course. er it was a cul-de-sac job. and we started s to put the stuff in at the front and whatnot you see. and then we started to get to the big stuff. it always happens with the big stuff really. we've got well under way with the job, she's very white,sh you can imagine why, she's feeling very you know she's very sort of edgy as you move things out and she's deciding what to move. . now on that particular day because the husband is unaware of these things you see. but that particular day she didn't know beforehand, this was planned a few weeks in advance as you can imagine. but he's off to see his area manager in leeds. it's an unusual day cos he's got to have create a good impression with the boss you see, the area manager, there might be something in it for him. so he's rushing around and flapping this morning before he goes off just before nine. and off he shoots in his car, his splendid company car. up he goes, off he goes. we arrive a few minutes later you see, to plan, and we're putting the stuff in. he forgets something and comes back. he's just adjusting his outfit as he's in the car driving up the tadcaster road and he looks with horror. he's forgotten to put his tie on. so what does he do? he turns round and comes back. and it's sod's law you know because nearly always these things happen mm. when we've got the worst bit. it's either a six-foot high with sharp edges f fridge freezer or a cooker which all the back's got grease on and is sliding out of our hands as we carry it. and sure enough, down the street this man drives. can you imagine, you're in his position? . a happily married man you think, coming down the road and suddenly there are some clow clowns actually with a van parked outside your house, moving what you recognize as your fridge freezer out through the door. now y i mean you've got no preconception th th y idea that this is going to ha happen at all. so you leap. and he leapt out of the vehicle,what the bloody hell do you think you're doing with this lot?! so i look a bit shaken cos we've he's just come from nowhere, screeching to a halt. moving this fur . bloody fools or something?! it's the wrong bloody house! i'm not moving! i say well i'm very sorry sir, but the lady inside says y the what?! . but the lady inside, she said to er take it back in! and the lo the that bloody lot! i want it back inside! but i we've been to i don't give a damn what you've and er of cour naturally enough you see. it's a job you get shouted at is removals, very often. . so you go to the door and you open the door and you walk backwards. it's like one of these films in reverse you know. and this time you're coming backwards and this way on. and the lady's going what what what on earth happened? i want that out i want that there's a man behind us and he says if we don't bring it in he's going to kill us. oh good god no! well and then there's there's y er y he can't get in the house cos you're in the way and he's trying to push past and y we don't know where the hell to go. you know, we don't know what to do with the bloody bit. get the bloody thing back in the k ! oh, you know i don't want it in the kitchen, oh! so then there's a s set-to inside the hallway. now of course the difficulty you can't i it's a personal thing and you don't like standing watching all this operation going on for too long. . at the same time you've got to try when there's a break in the in the shouting to explain that the longer they shout the c more it's gonna cost if you actually do do the removal, and even if you don't it's gonna c you know and er you get a few choice words and then eventually you say well well look we'll go outside and sit outside for a few minutes and d and wait till you've decided what and don't forget i time you kn you kn yeah. and you know. . and so you wait outside. it's fifty-fifty. the result, that is. fifty-fifty usually. you know you th either come back and they're embracing each other and cuddling and there're a few tears and everything and er everything's hunkydory and you start traipsing back in with all the bloody stuff you've just brought out from beforehand you see. . the other fifty percent of the time of course is i it's split again because they're arguing like and he comes charging out take the bloody lot, i don't care! . . and oh well, i'm not telling you you see. cos as i say it's a mixture of a few you see. but actually in between, i'd forgotten the in between bit of course is while all this pandemonium's going on, the neighbourhood didn't realize she was moving, or perhaps one or two did. but you know it's it's a strange thing, you don't realize how conscientious english people are. how often they come out and clean their windows. . mow their lawns. . paint the door. tell you this time they were out all in full force you know. like a cup of tea? whilst you're waiting. what's going on in there? you know, it's it's it's . and it's not professional to say anything. it's professional to take the tea of course, but you don't say anything after you've got it. but of course he comes up take the bloody l ! and so i er you er you you start to take it back out again. and then of just back like a yoyo, backwards and forwards. and so it goes on. and eventually you you either do and he drives off and nearly runs into rams into a lamppost or something like that on his way when he's finally given up, or else sometimes as i say they get together and er everything's hunkydory. but of course the problem then is after all that, whichever way, whether you move them or you don't, you've taken time. you've probably taken two hours getting the stuff out and then putting it back in again, and if you move it you've taken a lot longer. nobody wants to pay. . the bloke certainly doesn't want to pay, he didn't book you. the woman doesn't want to p play because she doesn't think it's her fault. and if they get together neither wants to pay because they haven't done anything, we've only taken the stuff out and put it back in again. . so the usual thing eventually after five months waiting for payment is to find out the bloody solicitor that told them this you see and inform the the solicitors that er his client has not yet paid us and we it ought to be done and eventually that's how we get the money. well it was her fault really for not checking he'd got his tie on. yes that's right.. so as you see it's not a boring job. one time no a long time ago, which it might actually, might you might have been at the meeting, i don't know. but this club as you know opens at eight o'clock in the evening. now i've done removals before then, not so much now, but i at one time used to be out on the road doing removals myself very often and i would get in for about seven o'clock in the evening get a quick grab something to eat, rush round this place, put the fires on and get it ready. now today there are two people working one or two, there's somebody on the door somebody o o o on the bar because we get fifty people into the club often now. but in those days, in the early days, we used to be lucky to get twenty or thirty didn't we? and we'd maybe just have two meetings on. so one couldn't justify having two people on board doing the job when in fact what was involved was bringing you in signing you in and then serving you. so i used to do both jobs, sign you in then rush to the bar. it was like fawlty towers, i'd be to the bar . it's alright for you regulars who know what it's like, but imagine somebody new coming to the club. you wander in, you pay your ninety p, and i say if you just go through that door please, and the next minute i'm out at the bar as well saying what would you like to drink? . but that's how it had got to be in the early days, otherwise it would have cost more to run than i took. and it was one of those such nights that at half past seven i'd just got most of the fires set and ready to er er just on and going and i'd half an hour to get everything straightened and ready for eight o'clock opening, and the door at the back went, which was where the office used to be. and it's another shouting job again. open the door want me bloody furniture back! that's all he said. i said sorry? sorry sir? you've taken my furniture! i says i beg your pardon? it's gone! i said, i'm sorry can you tell what's the name? so he told me his name, i think it's something like mr . i said sorry we haven't moved a to you moved my bloody furniture, today. it's gone i tell you. i go out to work this morning at nine o'clock, i come back, i open the kitchen door, four o'clock this afternoon walk into my kitchen empty! it's all gone! i couldn't believe it. i went into the living room. all my bloody furniture's gone from the living i went upstairs the lot's gone! and you've got it! i said i'm sorry mr but we haven't got er come with me into the office, i'll show you, we've nothing till for a mr . i said where's it from? he said tockwith . oh. i said tockwith? i said just a minute but we've had a mrs . mrs cooper rang us up. we've taken her, yes we've moved her stuff to th to the store i said. that's her! my housekeeper. she's only been with me six weeks. . i said serious he said i want i i want my stuff back now. i says i i er no no messing around i want it back. well i says i'm very sorry but i says it's six miles away in a store, we don't attend stores in the evening, i've nobody to come d i've got where the hell do you think i'm going to sleep tonight? i says well i must admit it is yes i you know i he said i'm going to get a policeman if you're not careful. he says i want a poli i want my bloody b furniture back tonight, otherwise i'm going to get a policeman. well by this time it was ten to eight and i'd got all these members were going to be outside, i was going to have to let them in and serve them and i was getting a bit frantic you see. i said well look, you go and get the policeman i'll ring my solicitor up and then we'll sort it out from there. so off he went in high dudgeons as you can imagine you know, red-faced, excited. well you would be wouldn't you if you'd nowhere to sleep on the night? . imagine going home tonight, opening the back and there's nothing there. it's not funny is it? you know. so i rang my solicitor and he wasn't there. so i then rushed to the front of the building, i said look, will you come in please? go up to your rooms, and i'll take your money off you later. i'm sorry i can't serve you now but i'll get back to the bar as soon as i can. so these poor people came in and i s it was actually it was an argosy club night. that's why you might have been on it you see. and er or yourself maybe? do you remember that? no. it was many many years ago, but it's it definitely i this is what happened. i mean probably the members didn't realize what was going on. and er so i shot back to the phone, tried a second partner finally the third partner in the solicitors firm that i deal with was there. so i explained what had happened. he says well you're quite right n y i cos i didn't think we you know i'd said to the man already it's quite possible i wouldn't be able to really take the stuff out of store for him. he'd have to t cos you see there was no proof of ownership. mrs was the person that had contacted me. so he said you're quite right. mrs made a verbal contract with her. when you arrived at the house she was in residence. so you'd made a verbal contract over the phone with a lady who you found living on the premises so you had every right to believe that she owned the furniture. if that man wants his furniture back and it is his, because it might not be,he'll have to get a court order. so i told him that when he came back with the policeman. . . i know. well the policeman was there anyway wasn't he? you know . . and the policeman just well of course this is a civil matter he sai he wanted to get his tea no doubt you know, and he wanted to be off . . so he r he disappeared from view and the man'd quietened down a bit. i said look i'm i really am very sorry. i said i wish i could provide you with a bed, i can't. i said i wish i could because i i i am sorry for your situation. but i cannot take it out of store because i would be breaking the law effectively if i did. i said all you can do basically is go to a solicitor, get a court order, unless i can persuade the lady herself to let you have the furniture. now i'd also in this time rung up the er forwarding address in manchester, rung up the telephone number i'd been given of the forwarding address. because she'd paid the bill for the removal. and i had to have an address to send the bill for the storage, which i would send to her on account every three months. and she'd gone you see. she'd so i thought well i'd i well he'd i didn't say what he'd done i didn't ask about that, i mean i had i had enough trouble without asking questions like that you see. and erm i rang the lady it turned out it was mother that was on the phone at manchester. and she said oh yes i says well i'll tell you what's happened oh she says my daughter's a hussy. she reall s i you know i've always had trouble with my oh she i can understand, the poor man she said, i do feel sorry. i said well er don't worry about that i said er you know but can you give me your daughter's phone number or address so i can contact her and get this sorted out? i wish i could love, but she says i can't help you. she said she's just went on she go she a after your removal today she got on a boat at southampton, and she's on her way to australia. . and she was. and what was the outcome of this? well, within about ten days i got a phone call from a solicitor er in leeds telling me to let me ha let the bloke have the stuff. i said well i'm sorry you'd better refer to my solicitor who's told me that you need a court order. and the trail went dead for about another fortnight, i didn't hear any more so, i thought well maybe it isn't you see, maybe it isn't this chap's furniture after all. a fortnight later from bradford, another set of solicitors rang up, explained that they understood the circumstances, said look c could i hold the stuff there and what was i going to charge for the storage etcetera, er and they would be going to have to get an affidavit from this lady in australia at some stage in order to give er him the chance to have the stuff back. they'd need an affidavit to say this is not mine, it belongs to mr er whatever his name was i've forgotten it now. and er . mr , thank you. and er so that's what he had do you know how long it took, all that lot? a year! what the hell did he do meanwhile? . . carried away anyway. well you see, i didn't know what had taken place. he said it was my housekeeper you see. now i i'm i'm only a simpleton in these matters. . . yes y yes that's right,y housekeeper. y that's that's right yes. and obviously i think it was a revenge job by the sound of it. and it took a year for him to get it back. in fact then he by that time he was living in leeds, so he had to pay for the cost of removal from my store to leeds. i charged him only half the normal price. so i didn't make a loss but i didn't make a profit on the bit of space that i need that i was using for storage cos i thought it was only fair to the poor bloke. and in fact it shows a lot for human nature because he was chuckling away at the end of it all and he even gave the lads who did the job a tip. so it's er but it's a funny world isn't it, eh? . and er so not only is it fun, and exciting, but quite risky. you know, you . so that gives you an idea of what goes on with doing removals. there are all sorts of other tales, but i think by now i've yes i've just about er had e had enough time i think now, haven't i? bef er i'll start boring you soon with other bits and pieces. any questions at all? have you ever been threatened with anything? not quite, but these split jobs where you have a split between couples, it can get a little bit heavy at times. but my instructions for the lads have always been that if you go to a job for a lady particularly and then a man comes along and starts to get stroppy, you'll have to explain to the lady you may have to leave it temporarily and go back. but we've never quite had to do that. erm but it's been near. i remember one, the chap called dave in york who er has a removal firm . yes, well i was on a r a radio programme with him at one time and er and he was telling about some of his sticky stories, and there was one where he was doing a similar job from a farmhouse and he picked the furniture up and had to drive down this long drive to get onto the road and the the farmer, who presumably was the man who felt er an injustice to him was being done as it were, he was on his tractor, saw the van moving down the driveway, took a shortcut to the road edge, and fired a shotgun at his van.. . and he said as he drove off down the road it went rattle rattle rattle rattle and there were these hole little holes in the side of his van.. so we've never come as er as quite as close as that. his brother melvin, er who has another removal firm in york, erm he had a funny experience too that i've not hac had. we move pianos on ground floor. we're light removals, but we will move a piano with three men. i have moved pianos upstairs, in certain cases where it's a very open staircase and a straight one, but we won't normally do that cos er we need the equipment to do it, the proper sled and everything and we haven't got those things because we wouldn't be asked upon to do it often enough. and er but he did one did melvin, and he he was trotting up the stairs with three men pushing you see, two at the bottom one at the top guiding it, and the top of the piano started to disappear into the staircase. because it was an old house that they were renovating, and it had got so much rot in it and woodworm, and he said he said he said th there they were walking up one minute and the next minute the piano was just going down through the stairs . and he said eventually with ropes and various other tackle it took seven of them to lift the piano back up again out of the gap that it had produced in the stairs and get it up the stairs. so y tell you, it's amazing the the kind of remarkable things. one other one, if i may just, that i've just remembered that a lady who had a again this is when i was big removals. she lived in a one-bedroom flat in st george's place as you may know those council flats. very small, very compact, very nice little places. and he booked it over the phone, said is it a standard flat? which was a silly thing to ask cos to everybody who lives in a house, they've a standard amount of furniture. nobody believes they are excessive. oh i've got an average amount they say and everybody's average is different of course. living on her own, so he assumed it take three and a half hours did the boss. she mentioned that she kept had some ercol furniture. you know the kind, that lovely blar dark brown furniture. we arrived on this job, first floor, and we went and opened the door. she said i must mention i've had a few more deliveries from ercol so we walked into the living room. you know how people collect stamps? . and if you've got a c country's stamps they collect the whole lot, you know, they don't just collect they collect the whole range all in one f and she'd done this with her furniture. she lived on her own, i i think she was an ex-nurse if i remember rightly. and she said the extra bits she'd got completed the collection. they were wall units. you know, six foot high, one of them was six foot wide. the other one was only four foot wide because of course she needed to collect the whole lot you see, and then the next one was three foot wide. all three of those had just arrived the day before. plus a drop-leaf table. she'd got about six little normal dining chairs, and then there there were the carver chairs, she'd got about six of those. she'd got all the array of occasional tables they then did. she'd got the sort of sideboard. she'd got a bureau. everything in the bloody catalogue at ercol she'd got. the only problem was that there was no space to walk! and in this last day, she must have been camping about, i don't know how, but somehow she was traversing i she probably didn't she was using the living room as a store, i could only think that, she couldn't possibly live in it. and we had to shift this lot. but added to that, when you went into the bedroom,there was the normal wardrobe and the dressing table and the chest of drawers. behind the wardrobe were there all sorts of things. on top of the wardrobe w there were big plastic bags. full. chock-a-block. under the bed. there wasn't any dust under the bed really because there was no room for the dust because it was jam-packed . full of bags. sh don't forget she said there's a coal house outside. i said i'm sorry love, we don't move coal. . oh she's says it's not coal, no, i don't use it for coal, she sa i've got gas central heating, we don't need no it's just that er well there are a few things in there. we i mean you know with coal houses they they're about this wide, about that high, of course you don't put the coal that high do you cos it's forty five degrees job. and it goes back about six or seven foot doesn't it usually? and you open just like a little shelter. same thing as as i mentioned before. it all fell out. bags. . ? yes, certainly. she'd got all the clothes she'd ever had. you know those little party dresses, what are they called, tutu dresses? mm. that five-year-olds have to go for parties. she'd still got one of those in a plastic bag. . . everything that she must have had in clothes she'd kept. all the shoes from little tiny ones, right up to the current. oh.. she'd got a bag full of light bulbs. . not new light bulbs, the ones that she'd taken out and put into the plastic bag. . . there w honestly, they were all she wasn't going to chuck anything away at all. i forget what mania this is, there's a word for it isn't there? recycling. is it? well recycling yes, but not the mania. yeah. . kleptomania, yeah? no she didn't. i mean i don't know whether she thought she could put them in the garden when she got to the new place and they'd grow but . there were five dozen jars, literally five dozen jars of jam. and as you can imagine they weren't all fresh. . forty jars of marmalade. . she could use the sugar she'd got for building bricks for a new shed i reckon, the amount she'd got there. . and all solid, you know. it was all over the place. under the sink, behind the cupboards, every single where you could imagine was chock-a-block. that job took nine and a half hours. it was estimated for three and a half. because we started in the afternoon that day, should have finished about half past four five, went on till seven, and then wen went ne next morning to get the next lot. but the funniest thing of all was that the flat she was going in, the floor area was less than the one she'd left. . the only gain she'd got was it was about another two or three foot up to the ceiling. . and that that li literally was what we did. i mean she was chuffed. she thought it was great, marvellous, you know she was very pleased with us. i bet she was at that price. and she was a marvellous woman, you know wonderful. but all i mean the shoes and the lot and everything. nothing went at all. so y you see there's another s strange funny thing that can happen you see. and this is ordinary days . have you ever sorry neal. have you ever gone to remove someone and they've been still been in bed or been having their breakfast or something you know? or something like that yes .. . . or making a meal of it y making a meal it you mean? yes. . oh yes, i mean very often i mean er you often go you very often. i mean if somebody rings you up and says how much will it cost? if it's er a sort of full removal you're doing, you say well are you packing or aren't you? because if you're packing then we'll dr bring er the forty boxes out fore beforehand. we don't use tea chests, incidentally, we use we wine boxes that we get from wine merchants, empty ones. because people will put books into tea chests then you can't lift them. you have to do a chinese walk like this with them with a man on the other side holding the box like this because there isn't the distance. so we use cardboard boxes and even if you're moving crockery, you put half or a third of what you'd put in a tea chest goes into er a a a cardboard box. you carry it out, and as long as the lid as long as you pack stuff so that the top doesn't come above the le level of the lid, you won't get any damage done, and it's much easier. and again a man a removal man you see can leave cardboard boxes, you don't need to have them by, we'll collect them if you want. but on the other hand as is often the case, there's so much that you've got you don't need, that when you finish your removal you want a whole lot of boxes in the corner out the way until you've sorted er everything else out. so th that can happen. but if people don't pack, as was the example of this job to this last week that took till erm the time it was it was four o'clock as i said when they finished. erm that would have been much much quicker if they'd bothered and organized them but they hadn't organized anything. they were just there. and the i suppose they expected to whirl round like that and all go into the er the the boxes. and that's why it took a long long time. we don't mind doing it. but basically if people plan and pack beforehand, these these for example, erm, the black plastic bag, your dustbin bags, marvellous things. if you've got clothes, your coats and dresses, and fold them over once, and then put them into a bag like that and we put them gently on top of the load, they come to no harm at all. and big things like your er cooking utensils, your your your pans, they are best put into black plastic bags tied at the top. cos then they take any shape up you see. when you put them on board they just will change shape so they'll fit in and they're marvellous for for packing in. and they're a way of getting a lot a lot of things in a in a in a space. er but that kind of thing can make such a difference, but people sometimes are, as you say,they're not prepared. i mean i i once had a job, it was booked er now what do they call the road? i always forget the name of the road. you know marble arch, what's the long road that goes off marble arch? edgeware road. edgeware road, thank you, yes. we had a b i got a booking one night. i should have known better but i got a booking about half past nine in the evening. can you pick up for us, please, perhaps a part-load price, for a bedroom suite from number seven edgeware road, when you're going? and as it happened, we were likely to be able to go. what you do is i er erm at one time when business was booming you may have as many as twelve enquiries over one month for the london area. so you'd try and parcel together, er say, four. and if you got four together you may be two down or three down and one back, you could make it pay, and share the cost out between everyone. and i was able to do this, so that half the fee was being paid for a three-piece suite going, some boxes, to another address, and then this bedroom suite was taking the other half of the charge back. and i arranged it on that day at the time. they went down in one day, unloaded the two separate loads, got round to number seven edgeware road the next day. it was a shop. and when we think about it, edgeware road, number seven, it is pretty early on, i ought to have realized, but i didn't know london well enough then. so we went into the shop, said sorry to bother you, but mr so-and-so er number seven is there a flat upstairs? no, it's our storeroom upstairs. it was only a two- storey building. er well we're after oh there's nobody li nobody lives here at number seven edgeware road. somebody would've been drunk that night you see, half past nine at night, thought it was a good trick. oh. so i'd gone all the way down there and come back for half price basically, and lost on it. so you learn. and we never heard from it again. if it had been genuine, they'd have been on the phone quick enough if we'd not arrived. but there was no nobody lived there at all. and it was just and of course what else can you do in many ways ? . as i say i ought to have had savvy enough, edgeware road, the first part of it, is purely commercial as you know, er er erm but i hadn't realized that at the time. so that's you know the kind of thing.. when you say that people have been bad packing things, yes. i always understood that if you packed things, you weren't insured. no well y y there is some truth in that, yes. in th i in the old days when a firm would come along and pack everything, then they said that, and that was quite true, that they would pack everything and then they would be responsible if damage was done. there's still always the argument with certain firms as to whether it was done before or after. but from a practical point of view as time has gone on, most people now are aware that they want to save money. and as packing can take half the time of the total removal and even more in certain circumstances, most people opt for that. and a what i would say is that if you pack carefully, and i advise people as to how to pack crockery you don't put plates th s big plates on the bottom and then build up, because that puts a tremendous weight on the middle of the big plates at the bottom. you put them edgeways up and you put newspaper in between. and we usually say anything that you think is too fragile, let us pack. and when we get there, there's probably four or five boxes to pack, but the rest is done, like books and crockery and things like th normal crockery. it can save immense time. and we've not had i i must say that over the years i might have had two cases perhaps when there's been a query with regard to that in terms of packing. we've not had that problem. but some firms do, and then they won't f they won't pay obviously, because they don't think it's their problem . nineteen sixty one . yeah. but that was the practice. but because labour related to cost of the total has gone up so much, er i i most people now prepared to pack would prefer to do. there is a s distinct advantage of course is when you get to the other end if you've labelled it all or you know y what you've put into which box, you know what you want out immediately, like the kettle. as we all look er c hopefully you know . . like the kettle you see. or else you er er er you you know well i won't need that, it can all go in the corner. i mean when i moved i had stuff in here before the upstairs was used, i had it for about a year or so, before i opened it up . do you do you pr pr er er erm supply boxes in advance? yes, oh yes. yeah i mean if it's somebody wanting to move a three-piece suite and just a few books, no, we'd do it at the time. but if it's a proper removal job we're doing then yes we would. we'd go beforehand for no charge, drop the stuff off. as long as you're not living in newcastle. then that er would be a different matter you see. gateshead. yes. . how do you suggest pack glasses then? erm well when you're getting to glasses, erm there is a way. if you take erm depends on the shape of them, but very often if you put a piece of newspaper round and then face the corner of one into the into you could put one into the bottom of the next and do it in a square. so one goes into there and the next one'll go at forty five de like that. so the who th one goes into there, if it's a cup shall we say, a cup goes in the opening of that cup goes into the corner of that, oh i see, yeah. and do it round, you see, in a circle. now if they're long narrow ones you can't. so the best thing is to put the piece of paper in in a wadge and then come out on the outside and pack it vertically and put them next to each other like that. the main thing is to get a piece of paper between each piece of glassware so that if it does move, and if you j you just pack a piece of paper in er er fold it over a little er and push it in,i i so you stop movement. but even then in boxes if they're in boxes very rare rarely do you get damage. very rarely. what about emergency stops? you know you've got that big thing over the cab,say you put chairs and things. what happens if you haven't quite put the the other goods quite up to that level? oh, so that you're usi . well y yes, but no but you see if you do an emergency stop it all runs to the front anyway. yeah. it's only if you do an emergency start and shoot off the road at high speed, which vans aren't capable of. they can't drive like we can't drive our vans like you do your car out the car park you know. . . yeah. get forty miles an hour down . yes, yeah. . i remember one thing, talking about things falling out and one of we had to go and pick up erm er er there was a great business you know about these er what are they called these these games. not not billiards, what is it now? the the american? no er er er pool . pool. pool tables. we used to deliver them to various different places where they were rented out. and then of course they the the the fashion died out and the owner had to get his pool tables back. and very often the people wouldn't pay the rent for them you see, so they weren't very happy weren't the people u losing the pool table, but the owner was saying sorry you're not paying your rent enough, we're not getting enough out of the machine, i want it back. and the he sent one of my lads we used to do a lot in the area for him, and obviously he can't afford to spend too much so h we sent one man in the little van to get this pool table from a working man's club in new in er nottingham. got all the way there, he'd been told that they'd help er him out, cos they're big heavy things, you need at least two to three people to get them out. got there, and what you normally do as well, is you have a key to undo the take the balls out and all the various bits to make it lighter. but this bloke didn't want to lose his pool table. so when willy said well could do you mind givi he he told him to sod off, you see. he said no no, you c get it you you're come to collect it, you you bloody take it yourself. so poor willy was left in a situation where there was nobody to help him out with the f a full pool table for which he couldn't get the key. the money was in, the balls were in, everything was inside so he couldn't. he went outside, used his initiative, and found some poor chap who'd give him a hand with it you see . so they w they came out of this working man's club on top of this hill pulled out the whole thing and all the balls rolled out . and how many are there in a pool table? god knows, fifteen or something like that, i don't know, something like that. and they all rolled down the street and down the road and they were all rolling down . and fortunately again you often find that people, because it's a novel situation, it's amazing how the public are c often so helpful. and all these people into the road . risking their lives and coming back with the whole lot that he collected and brought back again. and we got it back alright. one of the funny things that did er talking about the kettle though is that er er the number of times on full removals where you know with my re little removals you've only got ten foot front to back, but some of these vans are huge, there's there's there's twenty to thirty foot of van virtually to front. and one of the psychological advantages of working on light removals is that whenever you're doing it you can see the front of the van you know. you can pack it up, but you can still see the front so you know how near you're getting to the end of your job. but when you've moved a five-bedroomed house which has got a grand piano in it as well, and you're about twenty to thirty foot at the back and all you can see is furniture furniture furniture furniture furniture, you can imagine as you go on you're thinking god will we ever get to this? and er d you n really ne you need you need a bottle of champagne by the side of you when you reach the stage when suddenly you can see the front of the van. we've had situations like that where you've packed right to the back, and then the lady can't find her keys. . they're in her handbag of course. and her handbag was in a box in the kitchen in the first box that you put in the van. . and it's it i seriously, it has happened a few i in my experience over the years i can remember it happening to me at least half a dozen times. and so you've got to be like a bloody monkey and you've got to climb up the side of the van and climb along the side of the van without damaging any of the furniture right to the front to find the box to bring it back again. and of course it th it's more often done that with the kettle of course, so that it's it by the time you get to the end of the job you don't want a cup of tea anyway. . so at that stage i shall finish. and then you could go on all night. . . no certainly you couldn't, i'm sure you couldn't. do have a seat, i'm trying to do eight things at once as usual. only eight ? now sorry? only eight? only eight things at once? oh it feels like yeah, extensions going on there, builders there,now your insurance company have written back saying can we have a report because your investigations have been completed. that's all very well but the hospital haven't written to me yet, so i've not got my appointment through until the fifth of october. oh well they are complete then, oh that's okay then. but the insurance company about this little thing at the back of the eye? yeah. oh well i'll keep the insurance company er i w er we will send them a little note in that case, saying look, you know, this is the case, it appears to be an innocent lesion she's just been finely checked over on the eighth of october, do you feel you can now proceed? i mean they they they've given me insurance but it's oh right, so you are covered ? sort of, they're going to review it. oh right. when they've got the results from the hospital. okay, so that'll be what? six weeks off or so? yeah, okay. yeah, i mean that's that's not a problem any more. well i'll i'll erm well if you've got the insurance the be the best thing to do is for me to tell them when you've actually been done. a letter to insurance company. yeah. fifth of october, the hospital review over , okay. so we'll do that. now. what else can i do for you? i just need a repeat prescription for dianette please . dianette. yeah. are you okay? yeah fine. periods, water works, bowels, wastes? yeah, everything fine . no ? no. you've had a smear in nineteen ninety one. paperwork, there's the paperwork. get that up to date. er possibly not oh i might be. yes it's okay till december so we don't need to oh right. do anything with that,. it'll have to be back dated after christmas. no problems. right, blood pressures what i need to check please. going away next week. you are? where you going? oh south wales. mm, the trouble is there's a hundred and one things to do before we go. teach you to go on holiday. this'll squeeze a little bit. it's fine. absolutely perfect. thank you. yeah. so we'll keep you on dianette do you smoke? no. couldn't remember. i used to. don't any more. good, that's okay. twenty four, eighth, ninety three. okay , right. six packets of dianette wonderful, thank you very much. okay and i'll talk to your insurance company as soon as this letter comes through,hopefully right. this won't be far off now. six weeks. well. yes max s six seven about seven weeks okay. when you go i should actually ask them if they could write promptly because of this pending. yes i will. otherwise, you know, hospital letters can lag several weeks behind. right. but if you actually deliberately ask them to write promptly. and the eye department are quite good actually, it must be said. right. bye bye. good. thanks very much. that's okay. b the clergy daughters' school at cowan bridge run by the reverend william . charles and emily followed a couple of months later. maria was eleven, elizabeth, nine, charlotte, eight, and emily, six. but the reverend was fiercely repressive of the children's spirit, the food was very poor and the girls were often starved and cold . well starved and stark because yes. yes. starved at least. erm, i'm sure erm abby is, is supposed to be a fairly accurate representation of what it was like at school. maria developed t b, and died at home in eighteen twenty five, aged twelve. and elizabeth, a month later aged ten. and then their father brought charlotte and emily home for good. the four children invented imaginary countries and characters and threw themselves fiercely into it. with branwell and charlotte especially er, developing a country called angria. and emily and anne, a country called gondal. in eighteen thirty one charlotte was sent to the, to roe head school at murfield she was at first homesick, but eventually carried off three prizes. she left the following year having exhausted all the tuition the school could offer. in eighteen thirty five she returned as a teacher, her salary to pay for first emily's, and then anne's tuition there. in eighteen thirty seven emily became a governess, and then, so did anne and charlotte. in forty one, charlotte and emily travelled to brussels to become pupils at the mes en des occasion pour les jeune desmoiselles er, charlotte fell in love with the principal, but he didn't reciprocate. erm and she returned, when she returned as a teacher without emily in forty three. and she returned home desolate the following year . er, i'm sure you remember about anne's little erm, encounters and thorpe green, and how branwell got into trouble. back home, together, finally, the sisters published their collective poems under the aliases of currer ellis, and acton bell in eighteen forty six. erm, in september eighteen forty eight, branwell died of t b aged thirty one. in december, emily, aged thirty, and in may, forty nine, anne aged twenty nine. charlotte was then left alone with her father. she wrote shirley, and villette. became very well known, and a friend of mrs gaskell. married her father's curate, against his snobbish wishes, in eighteen fifty four the reverend arthur bell nicholls. honeymooned in ireland where her husband came from. and died almost certainly of excessive sickness in pregnancy aged thirty nine. er, her father lived on for another six years. and nicholls returned to his family home in ireland. the professor was published posthumously in eighteen fifty seven . i'm sure this is all very familiar territory. brontes' lives are almost sort of erm part of british history aren't they? you know . right. erm would anyone like to give us a plot resume in jane eyre? i could read it from the oxford history of english literature if nobody wants to do it. shall i read it? yes. the heroine, a penniless orphan has been left to the care of her aunt, mrs reed. harsh and unsympathetic treatment rouses her defiant spirit and a passionate outbreak leads to her consignment to lowood institution. there, consoled for the severity of the regime by the kindness of the superintendent miss temple, and a fellow orphan, helen burns she dies in jane's arms of, who dies in jane's arms of consumption she spends her miserable years, eventually becoming a teacher. on miss temple's marriage, she obtains a post as governess at thornfield hall, to adele the illegitimate daughter of mr rochester, a byronic hero of grim aspect and sardonic temper. rochester, despite jane's plainness, is fascinated by her sharp wit and independence, and they fall in love. after much resistance, she agrees to marry him. but on the eve of their wedding her wedding veil is rent by an intruder, who rochester assures her is a servant grace poole but who is the next day revealed to be his mad creole wife bertha, confined to the upper regions of the hall for years, whose unseen presence has long disturbed jane. the marriage ceremony is interrupted by mrs rochester's brother from the west indies. and despite rochester's full confession and pleadings with jane to stay with him, she flees. after nearly perishing on the moors, she is taken in and cared for by the reverend st john rivers and his sisters mary and diana. it is, emerges that they are her cousins and that jane has inherited money from an uncle. the legacy is equally divided between the four. under pressure from earnest appeals and strong personality of the dedicated rivers, jane nearly consents to marry him and share his missionary vocation in india, but is prevented by a telepathic appeal from rochester. she returns to thornfield hall to find the building burned, and rochester blinded and maimed from his attempt to save his wife from the flames. she marries him, and in the last chapter we learn that his sight is partially restored . i know it's always the way with plot resumes, but there are actually one or two minor mistakes there aren't there? i found one yes. immediately! well i may say so. yes do. i understood rochester said to jane that he wasn't sure er, his french had spent so many mhm. men that he, he didn't even know if it was his. that's right. and i had the impression that, he just adopted this child through sheer sorrow and sympathy for her but, did not say, erm, categorically that that was his. no. he calls her his board. erm that's right. yes. i mean, that could of been er er, an element of victorian proprietary in there. yes. yes. but, he, he, does make it plain to jane that he doesn't know no. yes. if adele is his daughter? and this one says, quite emphatically, that is was. yes. mm. that's right. also, helen burns isn't an orphan if you remember. oh yes! yes. she's actually got a father. yes. yes. mm mm. erm and actually, er, it doesn't, it implies that her it's, of the lowood , but in fact er it improved because they had an outbreak of erm typhus didn't they? that's right. yes. i mean and it er, wasn't th so bad as she grew older. that's right. i, i don't think i would say eight years of misery. no. no no i it became tolerable didn't it? mm. yes. yes. yeah. and also, it implies at, at the end that erm, jane and rochester meet at thornfield hall, and they don't, they meet ferndean. his other property if you remember? yes. when er, when he goes to live afterwards. yes. i mean, i know it's hard it's hard doing erm yes! and she wasn't going to marry, she never really considered marrying rivers did she? it said she was on the verge of marriage. i heard she . she was almost er hypnotized yeah. by him. she was, yes. yeah. you know she was almost on the verge of just letting her will be subsumed into his wasn't she? yes. which would have meant marriage because he would have but not to marry insisted. well i think he would have yeah. insisted. er, she didn't want to, no. erm who would? he was such a pompous pig anyway! he was terrible wasn't he? yeah. erm, i'm sure you know of this novel anyway, but just in case you don't, jean rhys er has written wide sargasso sea. telling the story, as she imagined it of the mad wife. oh! yes. before she came, before she knew rochester. yes. and her marriage with rochester. sorry! what was that book? wide sargasso sea. wide sargasso sea. yes. jean rhys. r h y s . mm mm. oh! yes. and if you're interested in spin-offs, from stories, i can think it's it's a very nice book. it is, yes. it gives a, it gives an idea of erm what rochester did want. exactly. it put bertha's case. yes! doesn't it? mm. yeah. it does. and that one too. right. erm do you mean the story in the book before when you were talking about i don't think it's that jean rhys jean rhys wrote yeah. a separate novel oh! telling taking a character out of jane eyre the maddened wife? the mad wife yeah. and imagining what her life was like before she married him. erm the novel, the second preface the second edition of the novel was dedicated to william thackeray who charlotte admired tremendously. mm mm. with a sort of tragic turn of fate, she did not know he had a mad wife. erm erm, and er, i don't know whether thackeray presumably he realized she didn't know. well in the third one she does mention er, this explanation was served directly by mistake should been made. ah! right. so, possibly she's faced that. yes. erm, the no the reception of the novel. it was published in eighteen forty seven, in october, under the name currer bell. the second edition was printed two months later, and the third, the following spring. she achieved popular success at once. and it was claimed as powerful, fresh, original, vigorous and truthful. she was amir admired by english and french critics as well as the reading public. although, some critics termed the novel coarse meaning different things, some of them. some meant, outspoken frank, too frank the inappropriate placing of passion in a poor plain girl's mouth . now, if that wasn't what charlotte bronte was pleading for, i don't know what it was. and, that the novel attacked both propriety and the upper classes quite needlessly erm, there are a few interesting quotations on the reception of the novel. one or two people who are always worth hearing if you can bear with me. thackeray. writing to erm, w s williams, a friend. i wish you hadn't sent me jane eyre! it interested me so much that i've lost, or won, if you like, the whole day of reading it at the busiest period with the printers i know, waiting for copy! who the author can be, i can't guess. if a woman, she knows her language better than most ladies do, or has had a classical education. it is a fine book, though. the man and woman capital, a style very generous and upright, so to speak. i thought it was kingly for some time. the plot of the story is one with which i am familiar. some of the love passages made me cry to the astonishment of john who came in with the coals. st john, the missionary is a failure i think but a good failure. there are parts, excellent. i don't know why i tell you this, but that i have been exceedingly moved and pleased by jane eyre. it is a woman's writing, but whose? give my respect and thanks to the author, whose novel is the first english one and the french are only romances now, that i have been able to read for many a day . mm. erm the next one comes from the spectator magazine. essentially, jane eyre, an autobiography, has some resemblance to those sculptures of the middle ages in which considerable ability, both mechanical and mental, was often displayed upon subjects that had no existence in nature. and as far as delicacy was concerned were not pleasing in themselves. there is indeed none of their literal impossibilities or grotesqueness. we do not meet the faces of foxes or writers under clerical hoods, neither is there anything of physical grossness. but with clear conceptions distinctly presented a metaphysical consistency in the characters and their conduct, and considerable power in the execution, the whole is unnatural, and only critically interesting. there is one fault too, in jane eyre, from which the artists of the middle ages were free, too much of artifice. their mastery of their art was too great to induce them to resort to trick to tell their story. in the fiction edited by currer bell, there is rather too much of this. dialogues are carried on to tell the reader something he must know, or to infuse into him some explanations of a writer. persons act not as they would act probably in life, but enable to do the, to, but enable to author to do a bit of writing. everything is made to change just in the nick of time, and even the return letter office suspends its laws that jane eyre may carry on a tale with effect. the fiction belongs to that school where minute anatomy of the mind predominates over incidents. the last being made subordinate to description or the display of character. a story which contains nothing beyond itself is a very narrow representation of human life. jane eyre is this. if we admit it to be true but its truth is not probable in the principal incidence, and still less in the manner in which the characters influence the incidents, so as to produce conduct. there is a low tone of behaviour, rather of morality in the book. and what is worse than all, neither the heroine nor hero attracts sympathy. the reader cannot see anything lovable in mr rochester, nor why he should be so deeply in love with jane eyre. so that we have intense emotion without cause. the book, however, displays considerable skill in the plan on great power, but rather shown in the writing than the matter, and this vigour sustains a species of interest to the last. although minute, and somewhat sordid, the first act of a fiction is the most truthful, especially the scenes at the philanthropic school. there are many parts of greater energy in jane eyre, than, none equal to the following and the quotation is the death of helen burns. oh yeah. oh! what a jaundiced criticism! ooh! terrible! that's the spectator magazine. that's the one that jane eyre, er not jane eyre, jane austen attacks in northanger abbey. yes. erm that's the one that, wanted respectability, acceptance amongst respectable citizens, very much and said that it would never print anything that would bring a blush to the cheek of a young oh! girl. so that's the spectator for you. but rochester did er did er, when he was trying to rebuke himself for committing what was bigamy, and the works, he said, when he compared his own wife, who was really a mental animal because she very bestial the way she bit people, and then, he compared her with this sweet, dewy-eyed jane, he did give a reason didn't he? he did. actually i don't you know. think that's the best reason. i don't think he could only he was very attracted to her simplicity, and goodness. she was very good. she was, but mm. it's like that argument, that, when you look for a marriage partner you're either looking for somebody to re if you're a woman, to replicate your father, or to be mm. the total opposite of them. that's right. either way, you are totally bound by what mm. your father is. mm. and it seems to me that in looking for in rochester da rochester's admission that he wants a woman who is opposite from bertha that's right. he's still tied to his first wife. he's got to come to learn to appreciate jane for herself not because she isn't what bertha is. oh well, yes. and he was he wasn't cast er, sort of er, trying to convince her, not forcibly, that erm, you know, she should bend the rules and, and be his wife. oh yes! you know, in other words that's right. forget all your principles and marry me because er she is an animal. you know yes. and you must accept the fact that she's an animal knowing that but not yeah. realizing that that would change what she loved. yes. absolutely! i mean yeah. a very different person. yeah. yes. i mean that's right. jane being jane would never, never have done it. no. and it's only because you said, previously er, that she was a sort of feminist that when, he said do this do that and she said very frankly to him do you think just because i'm going to marry you i shall commit ? did you re did you see that? yes. now if you hadn't have said so liz i wouldn't have realized that she was trying to, you know, er probe her individuality and er women had a a place. i don't, i don't think a mm. i don't think the word erm erm tt! feminism? feminism can be applied because if, no. she has kept the character and principle tha that make that make her take those particular roles that she does. there is one passage in which she erm pleads for women not to be kept in such narrow confines, social confines that their matters oh yes! are not only making puddings and sewing blankets that's right. and that sort of thing. and when he tries to take when he tries to when she wants to be an equal. , she she yes. just wants to go there as an equal that's right. and he refuses point blank to accept that! mm. yes. you know, she's got mm. to come as his wife. he gets really you know, into a paddy almost! i think i can yes. almost see him sort of getting more and more annoyed just because she won't accept what he says. well because he's yes. yes. yes. she's challenging his er this is st john? standards. yes. yes. he's very authoritarian. it does remark he is indeed. quite early in the book that there was a certain coldness about his christianity. mm. and he, she said, she wasn't quite sure that it was a warmth or a a real passion for mm. human beings, it was just a almost clinical, i think it used the word there. yes. st john's christianity is yes. absolutely and a need for a power. i mean, that's why he's presumably chosen what he wants to do, and th and the description at the end of the way he he led his life while he was overseas quite incredible ! i mean, everybody a o clearly had to jump to his tune! mm. yes. you think of these i wouldn't say very much better than the erm, what his name? the early one who goes to erm lowood, you know, and er brocklehurst. brocklehurst. what's his name? oh! yes. he was a tyrant! yes he was. yes. they actually described erm, in term he, when jane first sees brocklehurst she sees him mm. she's a child of ten if you remember yes. and she looked on it, he's like a black granite pillar. mm. yes. with a sort of totem face mm. stuck on top. yes. she looks all the way up at him cos she's only ominous. . erm, st john, towards the end of the novel is described as erm he, when he's asked jane and she pleads for quarter of hour's time to think mhm. about going to india with him as his wife he goes and lays down like a, a granite pillar yes. she said, on the grass. yes. and i think they're, they're linked by imagery, brocklehurst and st john. what i couldn't understand was that i was fascinated that when sorry! when she said er erm, you know, he said you're not fit for love! but then he, he insisted that she was gonna be his wife, which obviously, it was like a pent up frustration in him. but she was pretty he, he wanted a yes, but i, i got the impression he wanted her body! and, and that's the only reason why he wanted her there, that's the only reason why he could not accept her as a friend or an, as a companion. and as a a man when she meets him. yes. but, thought he was a nasty thing we'll confuse one at a time! i think quite a lot of it, erm, books haven't mentioned this er frustrated erm feeling in the grant is that she's come out mm. er er, erm that's true enough. yes. and i think the girls definitely saw, much that they loved patrick, they definitely, their branwell i mean oh! erm, they saw him being indulged in a way they were not. mm. if they'd been brought up all, all girls maybe their fiction would have been different. erm, i was talking more about frustrated sexual erm er feelings that er, they weren't allowed to you know, let go and in their way of life. no! i don't think there was any way in which, to let go. that, er at all. no. except in these fantasies in which they let yes. all, they, they mm. all sorts of feelings. mm mm. and their, their erm angria and gondal, these erm mm. countries, they invented. well some of them are then aren't they really. i thought that st john was madly in love with the other girl. yes he was. the problem was yes. yes. he was, yes. i thought, if he had any passion it was directed to her, not i don't think he had it and jane. he, he i think it was a he got fifteen minutes in the of acting. i think it was a power struggle. i think jane, nobody, he'd not had a woman stand up to him like that before mm! and he wanted to own it. yes. mm. that's the only way to quell it isn't it? is to own it. the master. yeah. the master. in any case, it was all so impersonal. wi he, he needed a helpmate yes. and, cos she, if she wasn't going to marry him cos he was far too vain he couldn't have her. mm. and she was reasonably bright, she could take his ideas and, and be a reasonable companion to him, er er, in his, in his partner duty. so she'd, she'd do. she can come. mm. she, she was co she coming! you know. but was she playing? yes. no. i don't think she was. she, she'd been told by the reeds that yes. she was threatened mm mm. well and so she always thought she was threatened. didn't er, rochester but rochester didn't, er didn't think she was playing. he thought, she had a, a gentleness and a grace. yes. but mm. there is a difference, a difference though i expect it that yes. and prettiness. yes. but mm. what is prettiness? mm. yeah. it's in the eye of the beholder. yeah. yeah. i was gonna say that. would you like to hear george eliot's brief comment? ooh yes! in a letter to chap called charles bray. i have read jane eyre, mon ami, and shall be glad to know what you admire in it? all self sacrifice is good, but one could like it to be in a somewhat nobler cause than that of a diabolical law which chains a man body and soul to a putrefying carcass . of which i think she means bertha. mm. mm. however, the book is interesting. only, i wish the characters would talk a little less like the heros and heroines of police reports . oh that's quite before we go onto that, erm how far do you think jane eyre supported this idea? i mean, she sort of flew the kite as it were with you know, if the wife was erm presumably the husband in other cases was mad beyond belief it was a good reason for casting her off. how far do you think she went along with it? i mean, she could have been er in love with rochester but it looks to me like a beginning of an idea, you know, that er there are circumstances in which she er in which divorce would be possible? yes. erm do you think she supported it? or do you think she just put it there for the argument? i think she to go with the character. erm i mean bertha represents erm the dark side, if you like, of rochester's life. you have a contrast between rochester and st john rivers don't you? as the two mm. men who proposed to jane. and you have rochester who has erm he's not exactly been a degenerate and he has shown some restraint, he has cared for this wife, he's brought her home. and he's cared for this offspring. mm. which may or may not yes. be his offspring. and at the end he shows enormous courage mm mm. when he tries to rescue her from the fire. but bertha, if you like, represents the erm the unfettered side of rochester's lust passion, if you like. er, whereas st john is as tightly controlled as a as a strong elastic band isn't he? mm mm. everything is held in like this with st john. with rochester it's been let go. mm. mhm. erm i mean, i've personally, i think the novel is actually a journey. erm i think that jane's erm journey towards independence is erm where she moving towards a position where, if you achieve a certain kind of independence, you can then choose to give it up. mm. and that's what she does. mm mm. it's not worth giving it up if you haven't chosen to give it up. mm. mhm. it's a bit like being erm you know, you know, a christian isn't it? free born. it's only worth it if it's personal, if you choose it. it isn't worth it if it was foisted on you, or you inherited it's got to be a personal thing. erm so i think jane's is a erm a spiritual journey with a psychological basis. that link between childhood and adulthood that she shows that childhood terrors can affect adult biases, opinions. now, in this introduction of this oh yes. this is an old er er penguin. yes. it, it says, almost what you're saying. oh does it? yes. oh! that's nice to know. erm yes. it says erm the theme is an urgently felt personal one, an exploration of how a woman comes to maturity in the world of the writer's youth . er, erm, it goes on to explain, but i don't want to bother you. but, er similar similar oh! that's thank you. it's always nice to know people agree with you isn't it? i once oh yes. for her mm? mrs you know, the er wife of the famous er literary critic. queenie leavis. oh yes! que queenie leavis. yes. queenie leavis. she wrote the foreword. oh did she? yes. yes. ah well. yeah. mm. well there you are! two minds, great minds. yes, that's right. if you, if you look at all the men in the this book, i mean, to begin with the erm cousin, the boy when she horrible! was a child mm. john rivers. was a horrible thing yes. in this story. yes. and the girl. and then the erm previous you know, the erm he, he was a revolting character and, rochester, of course, she didn't stay friends with. mm mm. erm, and then, and then you get erm, rivers, who's also a horrible character, although in a different way. erm, they you wouldn't, you know, you'd imagine she didn't have a very opinion of the male sex altogether wouldn't you ? yes. you would. erm and you'd thi i mean,it's also true that she didn't know many. no. yeah. that's true. i mean, she knew, her brother isn't it? mm mm. her father mm mm. mm. and erm i mean there was th the curate who that she eventually married but, really they wouldn't know, they wouldn't have any male friends. but she made up her mind, didn't she, that she had to publish this book under a man's name? mm. so she must have been really, had really deep feelings about what was going on in society and why she should do that. yes. you know, i mean, er, that is why it's all coming out in the books, that's why the, all these men, she's sort of saying i'll get my own back now, you know! i can have anything i want amongst yes. these vicious, nasty brutes not, yeah because that they she realized how she was living. mm. if they're brought up, i mean,th the child at the beginning is more sinned against than sinning, it's not his fault he's a pain in the backside, it's his brother! oh yes! it's him! he's the one er a pa re well or a as you say, branwell was the same, brought up, he was spoiled rotten! yeah. yeah. and how can you expect to turn out reasonable? mm. mm. so,sa her comment probably is erm on the upbringing rather than anything else. yeah. i mean, she doesn't mention this specifically, but, i mean, but mrs kissett though there's a certain amount of indulgence with boys. yes. you know. yes. oh! in, then there was. probably knocked the top off the tree. oh! he's a boy, type yes. of thing, you know. make them feel that they're treated as different. so i can see, you know, yeah. you know. it's interesting that he dies, as well branwell. yes. in the end. there are so so in the end she got her come-uppance. they all get well their come-uppance ! they do in spite er, mrs grant er, absolutely spoilt her own girls which she knows you know mrs reed. mrs reed mrs reed yes. didn't she? she did, yes. yes. oh well. yeah. and, whereas, her father he, he didn't think of much of the girls at all did he? ca and it was all for the son. erm, i think he became very proud of charlotte. mm. erm, but i think he tended to leave the bringing up of the girls to his sister-in-law. oh! eileen. er, and i mean, as was conventional in those days, you educate, your sons went to school and you try and, educated your girls at home, but the, the aunt put her foot down and said she wouldn't do it. oh! aunt branwell. so that's why the girls went to cowan bridge. erm but, yes, i mean, he was launched into several different careers by his father with money he could ill spare. course! mm. really. mm. but erm that didn't, no, that wasn't on offer for the girls. it wasn't available. well that came up in anne in anne bronte's book as well didn't he? yes. you know oh yes! the position of women, i mean, they they were obviously all kicking against it, and they were, yes. helen huntingdon's statement yes! to gilbert markenham, his mother mm. yes, that happened. that you would have boys go out with no forewarning, tripping over stumbling blocks here, there and everywhere and girls who are not even allowed to benefit from others' experience, let alone, have their own. that's right. mm mm. mm. erm having said that i think the novel is al is a spiritual journey erm not only jane's, i should say, but also rocheter rochester's. erm, and i think it's also a journey towards independence, and a journey fro towards belonging, if you like from being an outcast to belonging. mm. oh yes! er, she is unwanted, because she's different, because she's alien as a child, isn't she? in the reed's household. she says, as an adult, looking back, i know why they didn't want me. mm. i was so different. and why they didn't like me. erm and that's, of course, why she's so delighted when she finds that the rivers are her relations. mhm. mm. er, and can share her, er, legacy with them. erm and then, of course, in the end she belongs entirely to rochester. and that's a free gift isn't it? no, that's got horrible commercial overtones! i don't mean that. i mean, it's a, a gift freely given. he, he's brought her free choice. yes. it seems to me that she's also saying, it's also a plea, on charlotte bronte's behalf to men, to want women who come to them developed, independent and mm. choose to give it up, as must the man, in mm. marriage. don't you, almost, you can almost hear behind the text saying, wouldn't you rather have a woman like that mm. than a woman who's always been either under her father's thumb, or brother's thumb, and then gets passed to yours? mm mm. wouldn't you rather have a woman with a mind of her own? yes. er, oh yes! can't say no to this . depends on the men. i don't think in those days they wanted women with minds of their own, did they? well, er st john certainly didn't! i would. i would. no. oh. right. erm speaking rochester realizes her worth doesn't he? he does, yes. mm. very much so. he does. yes. erm and they are both passionate people. mm. and he was very changed. yes. he was. he changed. he almost bu became very humble and grateful, of course. cos she looked after him so yes. but he was very arrogant in the beginning. erm, let's look at a few quotations. er, i don't suppose anybody's got the copy i've got which is from a jumble sale. erm, the zodiac press. i've never heard of it before, but no? no, right. so we are the end of chapter six. i've just got that, chapter six. the end, the end. paragraph beginning, helena speaking she has been, been unkind to you. right at the end, last page. yes? are we all there? jane has just told helen burns her story. and i think she's just been erm has she been humiliated by him yet? no. perhaps she hasn't. erm,well, i asked impatiently, is not mrs reed a hard-hearted bad woman ? and helen replies,she has been unkind to you, no doubt because, you see, she dislikes your cast of character as miss scatcherd does mine. but, how minutely, you remember all she has done and said to you. what a singularly deep impression her injustice seems to have made on your heart. no ill-usage so brands its record on my feelings. would you not be happier if you tried to forget her severity, together with the passionate emotions if excited? life appears to me too short to be spent in nursing animosity or registering wrongs. we are, and must be, one and all, burdened with faults in this world. but the time will soon come when i trust we shall put them off in putting off our corruptible bodies, when debasement and sin will fall from us with this cumbrous frame of flesh and only the spark of the spirit will remain. the impalpable principle of life and thought, pure as when it left the creator to inspire the creature. whence it came it will return, perhaps again, to be communicated to some being higher than man, perhaps to pass through gradations of glory from the pale human soul to brighten the seraph. surely, it will never, on the contrary be suffered to je to degenerate from man to fiend? no, i cannot believe that. i hold another creed, which no one ever taught me and which i seldom mention, but in which i delight and to which i cling, for it extends hope to all, it makes eternity a rest a mighty home, not a terror and an abyss. besides, with this creed i can so clearly distinguish between the criminal and his crime, i can so sincerely forgive the first, while i abhor the last with this creed revenge never worries my heart, degradation never too deeply disgusts me, injustice never crushes me too low, i live in calm looking to the end . now, we've seen jane as a passionate, spirited outspoken little girl haven't we? quite justifiably i mm. think. she really has been treated badly at the reeds. and we're beginning to see her a co coming under helen's influence. mm mm. being tempered by helen. i think the first evidence we have of that, is when brocklehurst has placed her on the stool and publicly humiliated her. and this miss temple asks her in her well in her own study, to tell her story. and bearing in mind, helen's advice she doesn't er, express all the resentment she once felt or se or the er, let her speech run away with her. mm. and she is wholly believed because of that. mm. mm. mm. in my book, the notes, er from out of this i have another a er ano i have creed, it's got charlotte bronte's own belief. mm. yes. and anne's too, i think. if you remember this, er, the death of erm huntingdon? mm mm. when the tenant of wildfowl hall mm. mm. but at er, helen er fervently believed that his spirit would saved. that the creator would not, what was the, the saying? dispense with anything he hath made. but erm and, charlotte believed it too, yes! mm yes? seem to be, in all these novels though, runs outs, a lot on lists of er, middle . there's always this sermonizing isn't there? you know, that it helping to sort of make the reader er, the thing about . well, christian virtues and duty were very closely erm that's right. er, related in, in victorian society, you know. yes. it's some aspired to them, and some hypocro hypocritically sat behind them. like brocklehurst coming in and and penny-pinching about what the girls should have and then his wife and daughters come in dressed in velvets and furs and so on. oh yes. and retribution very often comes, i think, in the books in this life as well, they, i mean, again in middlemarch, i think you get your deserts don't you, and er you do. yes. i mean, helen burn's plea here is not to be to eager for retribution to come in this life, but trust to it erm in the next . well, not to come in the next,but rather to you know, sort of leave it to a higher justice if you like. cos she separated sin from the sinner in yes. exactly! yes. which she has to learn to do in mm. the case of rochester isn't it? she has to learn to separate his crime of attempted bigamy from his love for her. which she does. mm mm. helen, of course, is based on depiction of helen, on maria bronte. oh! the eldest girl who died when she was twelve. mm. and who was a little mother mm. to the whole brood. and they all where heartbroken mm. you know, when she died. must have been absolutely shattering wouldn't it? erm right now, can following loosely this idea of spiritual development if you go to the end of chapter twenty four that goes into volume two does it? er, i haven't got them divided into oh, mine are in volumes. volumes in mine i'm afraid. oh! well this isn't two hundred. it's two hundred. have you got the same copy? well mine's er, i've got three and then six. yeah, have a look by all means, yes. this is the there's plenty there. down there. three o two, in wo one of them, the twenty fourth. three o two. yes. pardon? oh! ta. right. the last, paragraph of the chapter, twenty four. this is a first period of courtship if you like. erm when ah,jane in a sense is having to keep his passion at bay, his impatience er, for their wedding at bay, by teasing him. yet, after all, my task was not an easy one often i would rather have pleased than teased him. my future husband was becoming to me my whole world, and more than the world, almost my hope of heaven. he stood between me and every thought of religion as an eclipse intervenes between man and the broad sun. i could not in those days, see god for his creature, of whom i had made an idol . oh no! danger isn't it? mm. those are the warning signs. it's too much. it's too much. it can't, even had they married at this stage it would not have been right. even had he been unmarried. because jane did not look on him as a, as a man but as an idol. mm. she didn't know him well enough. er, and i think that's an interesting point that, where yo where, when you read the story and you think really what prevented them marrying happily then, was bertha but it wasn't it was their attitudes to each other. mm. shall we break for a drink now? and mm. erm mm! meet again at five to? mm! yes? for the sake of recording? we are erm we have st john's proposal to her. shall i read it very briefly it takes er time to to find it doesn't it? er she but, as brother and sister erm simplify your complicated interest , st john says to her,feelings, thoughts, wishes, aims, merge all considerations in one purpose that of fulfilling with effect, with power, the mission of your great master. to do so, you must have a coadjutor, not a brother, that is a loose tie, but a husband. i too, do not want a sister, a sister might any day be taken from me. i want a wife, the sole helpmeet i can influence efficiently in life and retain absolutely till death . well she describes that as like an iron shroud. turning . and then a few pages on when she says, erm we must abandon the scheme of marriage. no! it, said he, it is a long-cherished scheme and the only one which can secure my great end . my great end? but i shall urge you no further at present tomorrow i leave for cambridge. i have many friends to whom i should wish to say farewell. i shall be absent a fortnight. take that space of time to consider my offer, and do not forget that if you reject it, it is not me you deny, but god. through my meanings, he opens to you a noble career, as my wife only can you enter upon it. refuse to be my wife and you limit yourself forever to a track of selfish ease and barren obscurity . if that isn't erm erm arrogance there. yes, religious arrogance, i don't know what is. i mean he says he's he knows that he is erm poor material, that he's inadequate, inadequacies will be made up by god. oh! but, if you reject it, but it's not me you deny, but god. his ego is enormous! mm. erm beyond the truth. yes. and it certainly makes you feel more favourably towards rochester doesn't it ? yes i think so, yes. erm, but that is, in a sense, part of jane's spiritual education isn't it? mm. she has to learn to distinguish betwe sh to, to recognize the falseness of that statement. mm. mm. to sort god from st john rivers if you like. and she does. mm. mm mm mm. well she wants to be his curate, er, she does use the curate. she does, yes. yes. and, erm yes! oh, i mean er, i know we can have different opinions on why we think st john is so adamant that she must be his wife i do think it's a power struggle. i don't think he's come across any mm. so independently minded, as jane. and he can't erm he can't quite live with that. he certainly isn't going to live with it independent. he's going to have it under his thumb. it did rather stretch but erm my credulity when she wandered over the moors and she was at death's door, and she turned up at her cousins' well hou house . yes. i mean it is that, erm is, i mean we, we can look at that two ways, i mean is that divine intervention? mm. erm, coincidence? or, as you say, beyond the bounds? yes. but still it's all part of the . well the psycho well the, the plot. the psychopathic communication at the end when they come together yes. again, i mean that is stretching the bounds the belief a bit far. well that is er i mean,cle clearly yes, the voice of yes. mm. mind you, it, yes it did. erm it, it, you know,th if she cle charlotte bronte clearly believes in divine intervention doesn't she? and in, in the context of what sh of what she was writing mm. and when she was writing. yeah, i think it's fair enough. i mean, it stretches our belief cos yes. we don't believe that you can yes. hear voices up above. is this the creed? i don't know. i but i believe in telepathy. but of course, i, is that what yes i believe in telepathy, but i don't believe in in g and i shall come yeah. to you and yes. he heard the voice say you can't, no oh no, not that both listened in at the time. dorothy? although, i do think that probably erm, religion at that time er, could have been this very narrow, rigid mm. kind of erm, idea. i mean, the church preached, probably erm this kind of religion, or some of the churches mm mm. did. mm. you know, this sort puritan, i suppose erm you know, following the puritan tradition. yes. but, they were very narrow, very rigid yes. and erm that's right. cos you might say, that it was all for the sort of, poor old pe people down. ooh, you could certainly say that, yes. mm. erm but in the middle of this we've still got a fairly young woman with vivid imagination. mm. yes. we have. yes. yes. yeah. and strong feeling. yeah. yes! yeah. mm. yes. erm, in a sense you have, it, it's, it's erm a a spiral construction isn't it? a sort of, a triangular if you like you start off with one position, represented by rochester, which is, too much passion, uncontrollable passion mm. almost. i mean,a apart from bertha, i know he was tricked into it by his father and brother, that marriage, but he yes. surely wouldn't have gone through it if bertha hadn't appealed to him. no. no. erm, if he hadn't wanted her, at least, at first . well jean rhys says that she's a beauty. yes. absolutely! yes. but she also had a big dowry. yes. well that was the the father and brother who saw yes. that didn't they? yeah. erm there was and then he has erm, erm madame varens, doesn't he? adele's oh yes. mother. yes. yes. and, or mademoiselle. yes, that's right. and then clara, and er, somebody's else's name i oh yes. can't remember. yes. yeah. erm and then we come, as it were, to the second position which is st john rivers mm. who actually does fall in love who would have him oh! and suppresses er rosamond oliver, suppresses that totally in his nature. erm, for his religious mission. mm! and then you come to rochester at the end erm oh well, i mean, without finding quotations erm he is the synthesis isn't it? he is the meeting of the two points. he mm is erm you know, the, the the one erring lamb, if you like, that comes back. and erm i mean, accepts jane, and thanks god and determines to be better. you know, he reforms doesn't he? mm. but without any of the religious priggishness mm. that we've seen from st john rivers. did he turn to jane eyre erm after he'd been rejected by erm the other woman, the oliver woman? no. no! no, he'd ha she'd had it ? yes. i, i mean, i think he he shows her no encouragement cos she went off with another chap instead of. yeah. instead of. he, he then thought right,whe who can i look for now type of thing? wha what happened first? do you see what i mean? i think they drifted apart, rosamond and st john they did. or at least she did. but she was eminently unsuitable wasn't she? that was the ploy that yes! she was completely unsuitable for the like he was determined to meet. yes. they couldn't marry,e even though he loved her. yes, er too much conflict and she would have a miserable life, of course. mm. oh yes! she really would. well any wife of his would have had a miserable life! i have no time for st john rivers at all! no. erm and he was such a hypocrite wasn't he? he was yes. he was a hypocrite. hypocrite. he, one of these people who allies their own opinions and feelings with the higher authority that they erm with god. exactly! it's, it's that er in jane austen's that they were recognized. er er, which one is collins. collins. collins. oh yes! in his, yeah, the thing oh yes! that's right. yeah, he he is . yes. he is indeed. they, they must have existed these characters oh yes! that, you know, clergy mustn't yes! they? yes. lu lutheran agrees hypocrisy that kind of religion. there is a such yes. it's impossible to carry out. i knew one once. yes. you did? oh! i sympathize! yes. yes. but, on the other hand i wonder how any of them were really, i mean er our own minister at our own church, he is extremely intellectual and very theological, and a wonderful man of compassion. these men were just given livelihoods weren't they? yes. mm. to, trot up all these awful ones. they weren't very that's right, yes. which i don't think they were truly good, it was quite a good, reasonable living wi with a house thrown in. but it wasn't a calling. no. no. no. it wasn't a vocation. not at all! but they thought not a vocation. it was didn't they? they pretend it was but i didn't you send your oh yes. wasn't it the third of fourth son third. who went into the went into church. church? yes. yeah. yeah. was it, the first to the army army, the law yes. or the law, that's it. so it was only third choice was it? arithmetic. i'm informed it's usually the fourth. i don't, i don't know if it's it's the third or fourth. oh yes! in charlotte . . but the, the a child a year eighteen children yes. oh right. erm let's come to the gothic in jane eyre, in why, in a sense,i it's in our reading lis it's on our reading list this term. mhm mm. let me read you a couple of paragraphs from er, an essay on the new gothic in jane eyre , by erm, and american critic called robert harman. some years ago edmund wilson complained of writers of gothic who could fail to lay hold on the terrors that lie deep in the human soul and have caused man to fear himself. unquote. and proposed an anthology of horror stories that probe psychological cabins and find disquieting obsessions. this is precisely the direction in which charlotte bronte moved. this was one aspect of her following human emotions where they took her, into many depths and intensities, that has yet hardly had a place in a novel. this was the finest achievement of gothic. gothic is variously defined. in a recent book review, lesley fiedler implies that gothic is shoddy mystery mongering. whereas, f cudworth-flint defines the gothic tradition, which he considers nearly central in american literature, as a literary exploration of the avenues to death. for montagu summers, on the other hand, gothic was the essence of romanticism, and romanticism was the literary expression of supernaturalism. both these latter definitions, though they are impractically inclusive, have suggested value. for originally, gothic was one of the number of aesthetic developments which serve to breach the classical and rational order of life, and to make possible a kind of response, and a response to a kind of thing that among the knowing had long been taboo. in the novel it was the function of gothic to open horizons beyond social patterns, rational decisions, and institutionally approved emotions. in a word, to enlarge the sense of reality and its impact on the human being. it became, then, a great liberator of feeling, but acknowledged the non-rational in the world of things and events, occasionally in the realm of the transcendental, ultimately, and most persistently in the depths of the human being. the first gothic writers took the easy way. the excitement of mysterious scene and happening, which i call old gothic. of this, charlotte bronte made some direct use, while at the same time tending towards humorous modifications, which are anti-gothic. but what really counts is this indirect usefulness to her, it released her from the patterns of the novel of society and therefore, permitted the flowering of her real talent, a talent for finding and giving dramatic form to impulses and feelings which because of their depth, or mysteriousness, or intensity, or ambiguity, or of their ignoring or transcending every day norms of propriety or reason, increase wonderfully the sense of reality in a novel. to note the emergence of this new gothic in charlotte bronte, is not, i think, to pursue an old mode into dusty corners, but rather to identify historically the distinguishing, and the distinguished element in her work . now let's look at the heroine in jane eyre. and think of, er in the light of the heroines we've already discussed. erm she is struggling out of dependence on others into independence isn't she? which she then freely surrenders for love. she's spirited, restless, blunt, imaginative, clear sighted, principled and passionate. so that's my list of adjectives, you can certainly add more if you want to. and with a keen sense of injustice. actually, that, childish keen sense of injustice i couldn't find anywhere else as strongly depicted, except in great expectations. do you know, when the young pip mm. as a boy mm. and his sister married to joe gardurey, is bringing him up and she resents him. mhm. mm. and she at bed time she gets hold of him by the scruff of the neck and mm. bangs him upstairs so that his boots bang against the stairs at every step, he hasn't time to put his feet down! and he says, it wasn't my fault! mm. i was born, and it was not my fault i was there. don't you get the feeling of oliver twist? yes. i think so to some extent. mm mm. mm mm. it's, perhaps it's too long since i read oliver twist for me to remember it as clearly. but that's the, that's the idea that came to my mind anyway. pip in great expectations. which is, i mean it, just you know, as literary connections these things do pop up in your mind. erm i think of the heroines that we've studied, emily also perhaps we could include matilda from attranto erm, maude from uncle silas helen huntingdon from wildfowl hall, and helena, i would say, not rosa budd, she's not in this tradition mhm mm. but helena, from, the mystery of edwin drood i think jane is most like helen huntingdon. mm. hardly surprising when you think mm. they were sisters . mm. er, the writers were sisters. erm, although i think helena landless could have been in this tradition don't you? she was certainly spirited enough. aha. mm. erm i mean, it's a new position though isn't it? struggling out of dependence in order to freely give up your independence. we haven't come across that before have we? no. in a romance, gothic romance. well no. but we know much more about erm jane eyre, than we do about helena mm. landless yes. oh yes! she is only . in fact, this is the problem she is only mm. discussing all characters from yes. edwin drood isn't it? yes. yes. that they, we don't that's right. know where they were going to go. that's right. jane eyre is a complete character isn't she? mm. yes. and on both sides you have this sort of modesty and and she developed drawing our heroine. yeah, she grows doesn't she? mm, yes. mm. but even helen huntingdon doesn't seek independence in order to freely give it up again. no. no. no, she doesn't. she erm if, in a sense she's already fixed onto the next generation hasn't she? she wants to save arthur her son. mm mm. she wouldn't have sought her independence at all if it hadn't been at such. mm. she wouldn't have wanted it. oh well, she that's right. may have wanted it but she wouldn't have done it. no. i don't think she would. but erm well why not? jane eyre didn't really look upon erm, erm herself as giving up her independence er by marrying rochester did she? no. and it was erm formed within herself really. yes. yes. the other way around really isn't mm. it? i mean yes. he was going to be dependant upon her, so she was taking on oh! that's it, yes. she wasn't er oh! i think that, i think she does make possibly, yeah. it really clear though to him, when he says, in fact, i, their dialogue took away i'll be your eyes and all yes. that. yes. erm yes, she does make it clear to him that she is not mm. simply going to be his nurse nurse. no. and and his wife in that sense. she needs him mm. as much as he needs her. but, after it all, she's gonna be the one that's going to need the erm the strength. mm. yes. it is her, erm moral strength, if you like mm. yes. and, er because she's i can't think what she's giving up? mm. no, it's just fulfilment isn't it? mm. it is, yes. but that's what i mean by freely giving up. you are giving up your independence. i mean, she's, she's got a competence that yes, but what was her independence if she didn't marry him? well she could have been i mean where was, what would she have done? i mean she could have probably had which would have meant she didn't need to do anything she didn't want to! no,sh she had five thousand. yes i know she had a lot of money! but, what was she going to? she was a still a single woman. but she wanted to actually she was. in those times single women really didn't have much. she wanted to own her own shop. no, but i oh right. thi i certainly think okay. she and diana, and mary could have lived quite happily yes. yes. mm. mm. erm, and i, i think it's important that she's left this legacy mm. to show that she does give up well, yes. oh yes. material mm. independence. mm. they both had husbands quite willingly. didn't they? so no doubt yes. yes. so really i, she couldn't probably ever live on her own. yes. necessary. i would say that she is the strongest woman er heroine that we've read. when you think of maude that's right. oh yes! er, uncle silas mm. er, the compliant women, matilda and the oh! matilda was dreadful! you know, but this is the yes. first one who's stood up on her own there's he helen huntingdon. absolutely! she did it too well didn't she? as much as that? yeah. yeah. erm no no. i think jane eyre's stronger, but helen yes. yes. huntingdon did stand up, and go against yes. erm, all the the law and the er religious er instruction of the time didn't she? yes, she did. i mean, didn't erm oh i can't remember his name. that humbug of a of a curate not, not curate, er, vicar. oh yes. in wildfowl hall who told her that really she ought not to have left her husband yes. that's right. erm, unless he had bodily harmed her oh yes! and that should be no minor thing. mm mm. i think she was very, very good like that depicting yes. properties . women out if anything, we se the first book we read was back in seventeen hundred that's right. yeah. go on. and it's a everybody was shown then yes. the independence of women are getting more independent each by the century, decade, you know. yes. and of course she was educated wasn't she? and she had erm she had a good she had had a education. she had as well, yeah. well it's which meant that she was more liberal minded. yes. with her particular character it made her more liberal- minded mm. and maybe she than the other ones, the elder ones. yes. yes, it did, yes. i mean i i because it can't be so unusual for girls to be education in a se i mean, i just don't know anything this i it's a blank in my mind. but, if there was schools, like lowood mm mm. with good people at the head of them like miss temple, erm, then,th th it wouldn't be on its own. they must, er, especially if it was up well they you had in the far north out in the yes. sticks, erm, there must have been quite a few schools for girls mm. around. but there wasn't much they must have been pious. for them do with it except to become governesses that's what they're chosen for was there? no. yes, but the, the presentation itself i was thinking about mm mm mm. i mean the mm. the, the idea of educating girls must have been allowed. you had to be able to pay. pardon? you had to be able pay. yes. weren't they? i mean, most of them . any,couldn't make any progress. i'd be getting . yes quite! yes, she was a very strong character, esther yeah. williams she saw five husbands off didn't she? yes. oh yes. erm, yes i mean, as i understand it, girls were expected to be educated at home by their mother yes. who would have been educated at home by her mother. and, if those circumstances were not er, pertained, then the girls could be sent away to school. mm. erm, but i think we've got, we've got erm cowan bridge in the early part of lowood and i think we've got really roe head school at the end lowood, as it were. charlotte's second school mm mm. when she went back as a teacher. mm mm. when she was much more enlightened er, and the where the learning standard er,simp was much better simply because the girls were cared for. mm. if you're, if you're if you're cold and hungry you're not learning are you? no. i mean, she started mm, i know. with the village children didn't she? or, he did as the ye whe whe well who well jane, i mean, er jane did that oh yes! in er morton? yes. right. yes. that's right, yes. er, so i mean that was unusual. yes. yes it was. yes, for the farmers' daughters and and it was for girls, for girls yes. there was already one in existence belonging to there was a class thing there as well, i noticed mhm mm. it didn't like them at first, because she felt that they were very rough and uncouth. mm. that's right. but as she got to know them yes. she, she began to like them. oh yes. yes. mm. yeah, so it, it yeah. showed people kept in their classes didn't yes. they? that's right. they did. yes. i remember there was one but she learnt, she was open to it wasn't yes. she? yes mm. yes. she was opened to having her mind changed. very commendable for yes. and of course, there was another bit aha. which i thought was rather ironic about adele, you know, she managed to kind of erm erm quell the the french, well that's right. but french was . i have a big exclamation mark, yes. yes. besides the other french was okay, but the that's right. french part was definitely yes ! insulting. she had an english ed education. that's right, yes. erm erm, i must ask a question yes. something that puzzled me as i read it, er yes. earlier on in the book was the pictures that rochester looked at mm. and oh yes. they seemed to me to be heavy with symbolism but i couldn't see anything. he did say, were you happy when you painted them yeah. you know? yes. apart from that, i thought, well why are they there, you know? well, one of them he was clever. more or, is more or less is realized in a dream she has, just before she leaves thornfield hall, erm in which she dreams she's lying in the red room again mm. erm, er, where she had her nightmare that's right. mm. and then, the ceiling turns into a sky, and then a, this sort of head and shoulders of a woman er, compassionate woman, an arm reaches through, and a, and a face comes, and er, she says, erm er, and it says, my child don't give in to temptation. and she says, i won't mother. mm. now whether it's meant to be really her mother, or mm mm. in a sense that one might call women of the generation before yours mother, i'm not sure. mm. and that's what spurs her to get up and flee thornfield hall. mm. and that's you see, this is one of the things that contemporary critics, some contemporary critics couldn't take, that jane wanted rochester as much as rochester mm. wanted jane. wanted jane. mm. jane had her own sexuality mm. had her own feelings, her own passion. mm. erm, the temptation was also on her side. mm! she was not a passive little thing ooh! no. to be done with no. as, as, as he would see fit. she had her own feelings. yes. is that why this bit ? yes. that's one of the reasons. yeah. cos it was written by men about well they wouldn't have known that though would they? cos er, it was, it was written under the no, no, no. na no, but there a lot of speculation mm. in the time. yes. do you think that the er it must be the war, the first world war, if you've been watching testament of youth, fear and britain's testament of youth, which i read years ago mm. and the mm mm. but, when she says to her look, look father she wants to go to university mm. ah, oh na no! can't go there, that's, didn't he? so i think that that first world war, sort of, really, opened up education to women and, and really more than anything. mm. isn't it terrible that it takes a war! and that was nineteen fourteen, eighteen, it was quite a yes, but they all went into the factories didn't they? or they found bits mm. yes. well what's, what's worrying is that this that's higher education. that they, we're in a slump like to the thirties yes. yes! and it took the war to come out of that, what are we gonna get out of, get out exactly! of this? yes. but we won't get onto that. perhaps we're talking about it. that's a different subject for us. erm a subject. there were plenty of spirited women really, you know, a man came from monied families who didn't er, just go off er, you know yes. yes, i take your point, they were the monied fam erm yes. but there weren't. mm. i mean the fact that they are so individualistic to us. and especially, i mean erm yes. and elizabeth fry, who reformed yes. the prisons. you could almost count them on the fingers of two yes. hands couldn't you? of course. yes. yeah. anyway, the quakers were always different. yes. mm. er, i mean their women were always allowed to do things yes they were. weren't they? they were much more enlightened as well. they were never their father. well no. ha. could do without them yes. erm to come back to what we were saying about the paintings well my mind boggled with the iceberg and that. right. yes ! cos,i'm eighty two now. yes. i think it's erm her expression. her expression really of the psychological in yes. the novel. yes. mm. erm, it comes out in her dreams, jane's dreams, particularly this baby she's always carrying, i mean mm mm. oh yes. if people know how to interpret what it means to be carrying a baby in a dream, please no. tell me. i mean no. apart from the superstitious one that somebody's going to die. yes. erm, which she sa betty expresses. erm and it is sort of a controlled way, if you like, of, of allowing the the, the subconscious to be expressed. mm. like you, i couldn't interpret the paintings in any particular way, and i don't think we really need to. i mean, maybe there are others who could, who can do it and explain them to me, and i'd be very grateful if they could but, erm in detail but i that's how i interpret anyway. i've wasted twenty minutes on that! well it was very a very interesting, interesting image quite often isn't it? yes. because, but quite often so much of it's sub submerged. yes. yeah. i mean, it could be passion, in fact. yes. a little bit on the top, but so much underneath. yes. well, yes. yes. it is an interesting image. obviously took teddy twenty minutes to think that this iceberg was a it was a, a valid symbol ! . thank you very much! well that's alright. that's what reading's for, so you well yes. can bother. that's right. was it because of the passion that the excuse me, these women seem to er, be pres having that made them think that er, it wasn't er a male who wrote the book or not? that may well be one of the reasons, yes. that, a passion was affirmative to a women. i have a feeling that there is a female sort of tone about it. yes. and mm. that there was also a, a sort of blow for freedom being struck if you like mm. which perhaps a ma a male writer wouldn't mm. make. mm. it was also about the little girl wasn't it? who grows up, i mean, it was mm. yes. i shouldn't think many men would have dared to have written it was all her then, in the first person who was about being a small child. about being a small, little girl. there's a lot about clothes. mhm mm. er, you know, jane austen, and and bronte, they wrote quite a lot about clothes which meant probably, but always, i felt the trollope could see into the minds of women you know, and he was good. yes. but he didn't go into detail about what they were wearing, but there's quite a lot about what she was wearing yes. thomas hardy you know. i think, is also excellent oh yes! oh yes! he's very good. yes. on women. let's look at some erm gothic elements er it's no good saying page a hundred and one is it? do you mean that, when you say gothic elements, do you mean a heightening for mystery? yes? erm yes. because i i mean, i think what, what i think erm charlotte bronte does in this, she introduces certain gothic elements, which she then immediately undermines. mm mm. mm. er, and it's interesting to ask why? and i thought we might look at a few of them. mm. erm but surely the house is, a name or a well within this awful voice. that's right. yes. but that's not so much the building as th don't you think so? as the a as terror, and mm. terror is another erm yes. you know, part of it. oh, a bit of gothic feeling. mm. it's terror from the beginning. i mean, terror mm. in the red room is deplorable! yes. yes. there is indeed, yes. well part of that is awful! and also the, the, the trip into lowood was also frightening. yes. yeah. it was, yes. the, er the for somebody that age. erm i was thinking more of the, this adult jane erm mm mm. coming to a bit but i thought the supernatural voices was, was gothic wasn't it? mm. oh yes. i think that's the one point that she doesn't undermine. mm. the telepathic communication. yes. and, and what about mr rochester's unexplained past? that, that's always there isn't it? mm. we never really know what happened. it's very hard when you know this novel is it ever explained? to, to erm to try and remember what it was like when you read it for the first time. yes! has anybody read it for the first time for this course? right. do you feel you . i'm an expert on it! yes! yes. erm mm mm. did you feel a tremendous sense of mystery gathering around rochester? that there were clues put in here and there that things were not right, and that jane was seeing all? erm before the ex you know, that she knew about bertha. yes, i, i think it would be fair to say that, but you wondered how he came to be the kind of man that he, she found him. mm. but, yes, i, i think that'll be fair to say that. erm, i also found that,th surprisingly, that there's little touches of humour roundabout rochester. mm mm. mm. which i found a little bit surprising. mm. mm. erm, the boy mm. you know, and he said well produce your witness i've gone to hell. and he said well i'll produce a witness first. you know, i mean yes. sort of. that's right, yes. i thought, well that's odd! you know, what it's supposed to be a, a, a terror of a horror story mm mm. mm mm. and but i think it sort of highlight, er, she might have done it unconsciously or consciously, i don't know. i think the erm character of rochester, yes, he comes across as a er er as quite a mystery man. mm. you keep finding out things about him, that mm. yes. you're not quite expecting. yes. that's mm. ah you know, he, he looms up on the horse, you know mm mm. mm. yes. turns out to be flesh and blood after all. yes. mm. well erm falls off the horse. there is a, a gesture there, of course, which is replicated right at the end isn't it? when he, he leans on her to walk back to his horse mm mm mm. and then he leans on jane right at the oh yes. end oh. to walk back into the house yes. i see. erm, when he's blinded and mm mm. erm the trouble is, if you, if you read it as as ha many people have found er, some years ago and then yes. read jean rhys' wide sargasso sea. mm. that's right. that's right, yeah. yes. and then you read it again and you've got that in your mind yes. that's right. of er absolutely! did you find that too? yes. i found it very disturbing. i, i couldn't finish it now. in a sense that takes the gothic out of bertha mm. yes. doesn't it? yes it does! yes! because it shows her own sufferings. yes. yes. erm, she is not something simply to be afraid of. she has, you see how she has been pushed into this position. mm mm. and how two cultures failed entirely to understand each other. mm. mm. and should never have been brought together in the first place. and of course, if you look at it er, logically, i mean, for a a woman to be tied up and kept in a room, you know, and kept prisoner all her life you could hardly expect her to to be sane even if she did have a chance to get which yes. she wouldn't have been able to, i mean yo to yes. ti treat someone like an animal then yes. they'll behave like an animal. yes. yeah. so, i mean, it was clearly that, you know, of knowing how to deal with mad yes. people. i mean, what was madness , if yes. we asked. erm just looking at one or two references. when, mrs fairfax is showing jane over the house mm mm, mm. erm, and she says do the, jane asks,do the servants live in these rooms? mhm mm. no, they occupy a range of smaller apartments to the back, no one ever sleeps here. one would almost say that if there were a ghost at thornfield hall this would be its haunt so i think . we're up on the third floor here. mm. mm mm, mm. erm, whereas we know erm mrs rochester is kept. you have no ghost then? mm mm. none that i ever heard of returned mrs fairfax smiling. nor any traditions of one, no legends or ghost stories? i believe not. and yet, it is said the rochesters have been a violent than a quiet race in their time, perhaps though, that is the reason they rest tranq tranquilly in their graves now . erm, and then a on we go, i mean,, and then she hears this laugh you see. i mm. mean, are there ghosts, are there legends? no, there aren't. mm. everything's okay, it's just the family, you know. mm. mm. erm, then she hears that laugh, you know, probably grace poole, did you hear it again? mm. erm, yes, you know and er we that's a bit of the gothic. she's undercutting all the time. mm. mm. it's the bit of the gothic, except that we know that this is, well we don't know then do we? no. no. no, and it says erm i really did not expect any grace to answer . mrs fairfax has just called grace poole. mm. for the laugh was as tragic as preternatural a laugh as any i ever heard. and, but that it was high noon and no circumstance of ghostliness accompanied the curious cachinnation. but that neither scene nor season favoured fear, i should have been superstitiously afraid . mm. but she wasn't. mm. cos it was high noon. mm. and mrs fairfax had explained it. mhm mm. however the event showed me i was a fool for entertaining a sense even of surprise . so we have the gothic set-up and promptly knocked down again. mm mm mm. so and then it go comes up again with veil . oh yes. it does indeed, yes. i mean, erm she actually then chooses to walk up and down the third storey erm couple of pages later, jane, when she wants a bit of solitude. mm. so it can't have been that frightening. this place she chooses to think over her own hopes well and plans and so on. erm, when she imagines that er i think you pronounce it a gytrash? i don't know any other way of pronouncing it. mm mm. a kind of ghost is going to be riding down the path for er, when it's actually a rochester mm mm. you know. erm, it's only a trapper taking a short cut. mm. but no gytrash appeared she says, just a trapper taking a short cut. all her fears are then all knocked down . mm. so that you're having the gothic set-up in this story to be undermined by common sense. oh! mm. a at the time it is raised, that's the interesting thing. not like, mrs radcliffe. mm mm. building tension and mystery to the end and then undermining it all. no. but er and even when they erm the stranger comes you know mm mm. who's the, the brother and erm had his arm injured oh yes. mm. erm, he's , and even then she accepts doesn't she, or she appears to accept what she's told? yeah. she does, yes. mm. i mean, there is one when she says that bertha's face reminded her of a vampire i suppose that's probably the most gothic moment. mm. but then when you think that she did actually bite mason! yes. of course. quite hard, i mean really hard! mm. yes. er, and tries to bite rochester on the face doesn't she? yes. yes. erm, then she becomes a sort of literal th the vampire, as it were, is reduced and she becomes just a wild thing. mm mm. yeah. so that actually that comment on her being a vampire is also undermined. but she was a pyromaniac. because that wasn't the first time, when she eventually burnt the place down yes. she tried before. yes. mm. so she had this pyroma maniac as well. yes. i mean, are we to see that as symbolic the setting fire to rochester's bed? the burning bed? could well be. passionate bed perhaps? yes. mm mm! mm. certainly jean rhys erm i mean, i thought of jean rhys at that mm. point, extrapolates that backwards, if you can mm mm. extrapolate backwards. doesn't she? i've forgotten a lot of the book. i didn't have time to read it all and how far in comparison with the other gothic novels do you go before you, as a reader, know about this woman er, kept up you know, in er the quarters. abberton forest erm half way exactly yes. should think about half way through it yes. , you know. when you find out. mhm mm. erm mm. it's incredible to me, that jane has all these er er things happening mm. portents is the word? yes. or omens, yes. omens, yes. and er she never really, she's never really very curious no. a erm well she acc it is, it is never he doesn't, not actively curious. no. she accepts right. explanations doesn't she? mm. yes, she does. but then you wouldn't yes. think of the mad wife being shut up there no. by you might if you were catherine moorfield. yes . it's a bit like this . but northanger abbey is, but, she is absolutely but northanger abbey was definitely a bit curious! yes . but, what i was going on to say was that erm grace what's her name? poole. grace. grace poole. mm. er everything's blamed, blamed onto grace poole but she's, but she i don't reappears! mm. she's never dismissed. mm. oh yes. and, wouldn't er jane be inquiring about that? well she does wonder about it, yes, but she's oh yes. ah, i mean, she's got a, a subordinate role in the house hasn't she? mhm mm. erm i mean, and mrs fairfax is not really open to erm giving her the information no, er tha is she? i think, doesn't she ask her at one point about grace poole? mm mm. and mrs fairfax oh! yeah. turns the conversation. yes. mm. mm. erm but th the servants are all talking about this erm, aren't they, at one point? yeah. and she overhears them. mm. but she, as you say, she's not really curious no. to find out why she's being kept in the dark and yes. everyone else knows. yes. she's also told that it's grace poole that slept by the rochester's bed. yes. mm. mm. erm, but things go on as usual. yes. yes. yes. this is, i found intriguing. yeah, i found this yes. a bit hard to swallow. yes. but she said he would explain want to find out more. you know yes he did. mm. he yo you know and himself. from their marriage, that's right. yes. true. but she knows that grace poole is a and yes. she's been living with a brother . mm. mm. yes. erm sorry! who's the liv sorry! sorry! i who's been living with him? too. oh! charlotte? char charlotte bronte. yes. with the brother who drank. yes. yes. so erm, she presumably being used to sort of accepting these er, crises and behaviour yeah. thinking it was drink, and so why shouldn't she acc in that jane eyre accepts grace poole drinks and she gets your erm yes. lively bits of behaviour, but then mm. it all settles again and you have to accept it. but why is she there? mm. yes. . she isn't curio i mean yo er erm, i can see if you it could get in the way of accepting the story. mm. erm, what i found actually er erm even odder, was that is, if the servants knew about her, why did nobody appear at the wedding ceremony? mm. why was it left to mason yes. yes. to come forward? he had been paid. i don't, i don't think they knew that she was was his his wife. wife. don't know. they knew that he had er erm a mad woman. a mad woman upstairs but i yes. don't see as though knew her was his wife. yes. well i said they er but they did wor wonder whether it was erm mm. mm! an ex-mistress yes. a relation or mm. something. er it didn't come out even where the er, inn keeper is telling erm her, telling jane about what happened. mm. and he obviously didn't know and it wasn't public knowledge that it was his wife that was oh no. kept there, it wasn't just no. this woman. mm. yes, erm erm, i think what erm the purpose for me, anyway, or the effect of under setting up the gothic in detail and then undermining it, is that when you do allow it to stand it's much more effective. mm. mm mm. mm. and that, i think, is mhm mm. i mean i know we, we, we can dispute that this telepa telepathic communication is actually rather far-fetched, but it is quite dramatic mm. isn't it? mm. that's right. that at the moment at which she's about to submit mhm mm. to st john erm she hears the call as it were from somebody who really needs mm. her. doesn't just even through the nightmare she . mm. yeah. it's a, it's a er a prickle that nobody yes. can see. and he heard the reply. mm. yes. and he goes through yes. yeah. i think, even more frightening the fact that she might have succumbed to this chap . i was saying,for god's sake don't do it! i really was frightened that she might be off with him. well, what i found a bit erm remarkable really, in the book mm. was that er, parts of it were pure hollywood weren't they? mm mm! mm mm. yes. they really were! yes, but doesn't it come off when yeah! they do the film of it, it's much more dramatic and eerie yes. than than the novel because you yes. don't get a rational explanation no. in the film. no you don't. you get the atmosphere very strongly. what will and it comes off far more as a you know, as a sort of gothic mm mm. story yes. than, than the novel. what could have been a really gothic moment in the novel, and quite deliberately isn't, it seems to me, is jane's confrontation of bertha. when after the disruptive yes. wedding ceremony, they all troop up to the third storey yes. yes. to meet this mad yes. woman. at this point we're, we're not having any of jane's reactions. we've got rochester's erm monologue account. as it were yes. mm. yes. erm, a mixture of anger and shame and er, resentment and er, justification and so on. and he places his hand, as he said, on his jane's shoulder and says this is i this quiet girl standing there, this is what i wanted and look what i've, you know mm. can you blame me when you see yes. what i've got? mm. and, she is not terror stricken, she is not horrified, she's not cowering in a corner, jane i mean. no. she's just standing there really quite strong. yes. taking it in. mm. and she says later sh you, you're too cruel, to rochester, you can't blame her for being mad. mm mm! and so, what could have been a really gothic moment, isn't. mm. and it seems to me, quite deliberately isn't. it's made a moment of er, dramatic moment er, a compassionate moment mm. but not a gothic moment. but even the fire where, you know, the first fire, don't they, when she burnt house down erm that isn't made as terrifying as it no. could have been. no. it's quite funny actually. yes. yes. because he wakes up and, and yes. says is there a flood? what yes! that's right . are you doing drowning me in my bed! you know. yes ! cos she's thrown all this water over him. but i mean that's a terrifying thing to have found him in oh yes! flames and er and then there's one little sort of almost erotic flicker really, when she says i'll go and get a candle and he says, don't go yet. yes. yes. wait till i put something on. i know. erm and er, you could pass it. you really could pass it. erm and it's, you know it's, part of life isn't it? i it's couldn't help thinking if it was modern day a woman that's manically depressed dreamt that, dreamt she had, she was definitely mental, she would be stuck in a a mental home and just kept under with er drugs. exactly! drugs. yes. she certainly wouldn't be roaming round. and you know,won i wonder whether she wasn't, yeah. whether it's kind of him to keep her there mm mm. because she's quite well looked after. well exactly. yes. yes. mm mm. yes. but there must have been cases weren't there? oh yes! yes, but that's to that would be terrible if you had this! yes, but that's then, i mean, perhaps rochester was kinder. yes. so, in case that does happen. yes. yeah, absolutely! he, and then yes. he didn't want anybody to know, but i think in he did that in the kinder fashion. mm. that is possible actually, that he would want to keep it from his neighbourhood. yes. mm. true. that he were married to a mad woman. but if sh she was in care they would put her somewhere else though wouldn't no. qui quite possibly they wouldn't. so he would have been safer no. wouldn't he, actually than yes. put her in a mental hospital or a mm. or a mental institute. yes. mm. somebody in authority would have known that he was married though, but, probably not anybody who could have done anything about preventing another one. no. mm. yeah, but we wouldn't have had the story would we? well no, quite! er er, in some cases they were beaten and tortured! oh! that's right. yes! oh! dreadful, yes. i think you just can't yes. yes. yes it was a duty of them wasn't it? mm. to beat the devil out of them. yeah. yeah. most dreadful time! and left abandoned there weren't they? oh yes. yes! yes. they were. nasty! some are still. depicted in film erm, er, in that tchaikovsky film, whatever oh! was it called? the music makers. oh yes. mm. erm, with glenda jackson. yes. mm. mm. absolutely incredible! that, oh! it was awful! did you see it? no. oh! it's, it's it was absolutely incredible! i think early in the eighteen twelve made it forever . really? mm. mm. oh lord! well we had the quakers yeah. to thank for improving the law on prisoners. oh yes! we did. and the mental , that's right. i think yeah. they were wonderful! at least prisons er what they did yes. absolutely! yes. was amazing yes. and wonderful really! well that's right. mm. mm. yeah. all the erm have we said all we want to say about st john and his er, secessionism? oh yes. i think so, yes. cos partly, i expect, his trouble was repression too. i think that he was was such a fanatic erm, religious yes. because he wa he was obviously a very repressed man wasn't he? absolutely! spiritually and . yes. and, and emotionally, he had repressed his yeah. desire for rosamond hadn't he? yes. mm mm. yes. erm, and that is the way that and spiritually. erm yo i mean he says at one point, as a positive statement, he thinks, that he bend, he's bending his nature out of its natural course mhm mm. mm. in order to serve god. mm mm. yes. whereas jane sees that as unnatural. mm mm mm. yes, like wasn't it that . a typical religion though, that in that day and age when you were made to flagellate yourself, you were made, the whole time, to recognize your sin, and anybody who was masochistically inclined yeah. was going to become a rivers. mm. yes. afraid so. and inflict it on others as mm. well. as well. yeah. and be a sadist as well. you know van gogh er, he had a hired woman, and er he definitely thought that was what he should do to actually put all his energies into his painting mm. and mm. and, well he didn't mind. so it's best not to have . well that means freud accepts that is one channel in which yes. any unused sexual energies will go. that's right. it goes into creative. subjugating it yes. isn't it? yes. yes. but erm rivers didn't exactly subjugate it did he? i mean, no. evil came out of it. it was a and also was doted on by his two sisters. mm. wasn't he? yes. although they recognized that jane's lot with him in, i mean, they wanted jane oh yes! to marry him mm mm. but once they knew it meant going to india mm. and that she didn't care mm. for him, then erm they, they supported her. yes. oh yes, but well no, they didn't. er they did dote on him, you know, rather spoiltly. yes. but, it makes you wonder why. so i think when we have these he was good looking. erm er portraits of, er men you have to take i it that erm we could argue charlotte bronte was very critical of the men she knew and, the men she thought she might know, and didn't erm, you have to look at the women who feed into the making of them mm mm. don't you? as you say, you have to look at mrs reed that's right. and mm. the making of john. and, perhaps the sisters, and the making of st john. mm. but the men had the power didn't they? they erm yes. they, they had all the power. so, women had, well what else could they do but kind of mm. well the women were chattels weren't they? in fact, you know, they, they just belonged mm. to the men and yes. either their fathers, or their husbands. mm. yes. but mrs reed's children, er, three of them, all a re a reflection of her wickedness. mhm mm. mm. if you can put it like that. mm. mm. yes. cos the two er, girls mm mm. who are, were extraordinary mm. and they didn't fit into life, did they? well into the world. well, one was to no one became a nun didn't she? yes. yes. one was to, one should have married st john eliza. yes. that's it, yes. eliza and st john could have bored each other rigid! yes. yes. erm some murdered each other actually. yes, probably ! and the one that was indulged georgiana. was was yes. completely useless! yes. absolutely hopeless! she was pretty. er, she was pretty, she was er, she'd been ruined hadn't ? she was lumpish all curls. yes. she went sort of, she just sort of spread and got lazy didn't yes. she? you know, in everything she did, er physically, mentally, you know self indulgent. yes. absolutely. er, and john just went wild. mm. yes. i mean, erm what's your explanation for mrs reed wanting to see jane again? you know, where she, she finds her ah! that's an interesting question. i'm sure she went to heaven or thereabouts. yes. yes. yes. the extensible answer is to try and clear her conscience, to tell mm mm. her about this uncle yes. who wanted to leave her money. yes, yes, that's that's a wasn't it? erm, it's the go i mean you, you can or not er, decided whether you're going to believe in a woman who is so vindictive that she's going to allow them er, prevent her having her rightful mhm. erm, legacy. mhm mm. erm because, she is of an equal status mm. with her own children. mm. mm. they are cousins. mm. mm. yes! erm, and obviously the fact that she's sent to lowood shows that it's mm. her education's being pa paid for at the cheapest possible mm mm. er, rate yes. by mrs reed. mm mm. and, and that's only because her husband were on a promise from her. mm mm. mm. erm i think it's, er an original mark of the book that they don't make it up. no, they don't. no. i don't think they should make it up. no. i think there are some gulfs which cannot be bridged. mm mm. mm. and if, charlotte bronte had had reconciliation there i think it would have oh! it would have been er awful yes. wouldn't yes. it? it would. and she no, she just turned away from her didn't yes. she? she did. after she'd it's a deathbed confession to mm. exculpate her her yeah. her wrong-doing that's right. but, no way did she have any affection for her then. oh, well mrs reed's nasty! and contin died hating er yeah. jane didn't she? she did anyhow. oh yes! so that was on her mm. but it had served the purpose of making jane know about her uncle yes. didn't it? that's right. this uncle who was also presumably the uncle of er, not only the rivers' children, but would he also have been the uncle of re mrs reed's yes. children? yes oh! yes! he would, her brother's erm mm. yes. husband's brother wasn't he? that's right. but he also gives you a feeling that she was trying to show the difference good and evil, in other words, jane refused to hate her but she did hate her. mm. mm. you know what i mean? yes. mm. all the way through. mm. hate gets you nowhere. yes, she felt sorry for her. there is, erm, a victorian literary convention also, being slightly worked against here, er, if anybody knows david lodge's novel, nice work. yeah. mm. anybody know nice work? mm mm. erm, features er a female university lecturer who's who says of the victorian novel that it comes out right by marriage, er either marriage, legacy, or i can't remember what the other one was, there were three categories. and jane certainly gets her legacy. yes. but she gets her legacy, erm, in order to be able to show that she doesn't need it. mm. mm mm. mm mm. in order to be able to, not give yes. it up, you don't have to no. give it up but she did share it. but,yo er she did share, yes. yes. and, and to be able to if you like, bring it as a dowry, but it wouldn't have mattered if she hadn't a penny. yes. the sim the same with helen huntingdon. oh yes. yes. quite. mm. and you may as well have it if it doesn't matter because mm. then you can show, as an author, that it doesn't matter. mm mm. if you haven't got it then you could just, er other people just could be nice when they marry you and say that it doesn't matter that you haven't got it. mm. no. but if you've got it and it doesn't matter, then you can really show it doesn't matter. and bearing in mind that anything that she had would automatically become rochester's. mm. yes. yes. er, you know, because anything belonging to a wife belonged to her husband at that time. that's right. but he would also, in the spirit of their marriage, they mm. they pooled everything didn't they? i mean, it was obvious that it was going to be erm, well, i mean, she'd been married, she's married, ten years mm. by the time er the book ends. yes. and this is a question that always occurs to me and i've read this novel several times, at the end of it why did she write it? not why did charlotte bronte write it, why does jane eyre write it? why does she write this story? do you think? because it's a long road from sad des desolation, being orphaned to true happiness. it's a love re really. yes. it is a love story. it's also a spiritual journey and a, and a movement it's this to belonging and journey of fulfilment isn't it? yes. having some some fulfilment through adversity. yes. really. why would you need to write it if you'd had the journey? to get it out of yourself a and exult to make the beginning possibly yes. yes, to erm rational well to erm explain the beginning, you know, to, to get the hatred and the erm, sense of injustice out of your system. interest which is, for er for the children. and also exposing possibly. interest the children, yes. exposing erm this to society what goes on in society. well yes. we don't get any sense of jane actually publishing this do no. we? no or cross advertising either though. i've got no idea. mm. it's a flaw but they flaunted it didn't she? in the story for me. well why do people write their autobiographies? yes! exactly! yes. so that she wouldn't yes. forget it? yes, there's that. there are hints, there are passages here and there where she goes into the present tense. mm. yes. oh yes. yes. yeah. and if, it's as if she were writing a diary, i decided. yes. that was the effect it had on me. well, more or less, she talks to the reader and she does talk to the reader, yes. maybe yes. she feels that the whole thing needs rationalizing and that she's just come,co come to the pi the point where she can rationalize everything for once in her life. yes. yes. and yes. she doesn't also want to forget yes. it. but then maude did the same. same ending and no entirely. maude, ten years after er, sitting there surrounded by her little ones yes. erm and the man she loved. and she went through the same circum got exactly the same ending. it could be telling the children all of it in fact. yes. it could be, yes. mm mm. mm. i do i mean, i'm asking you questions which i don't know the answer. yeah. there's a note here that the general confusion of dates and eras and passions and facts is even more irrational that anything dickens did! well of course! she couldn't have got the be because she wasn't yet twenty one. oh i see. is it becau yeah. she does seem to have quite a free hand for a woman under twenty one mm. didn't she? mm. and suppo i assumed it's because she was orphan. it is really understandable and, you know, if people don't care for you they aren't going to stop no. you doing certain things. no. i mean, in the last don't you think? chapter she appeals to the reader, i know i came from etcetera, etcetera yeah. so in the end she is yes, we can be so the patches yes. the patches, right now, you're on, we put you the oestraderm fifties? yeah. right. because you'd stopped the premeren and how are you getting on with those? you've had your first month's worth. er the first couple of weeks were fine, yeah. i felt a lot better. but i just feel tired again, oh it's got worse? yeah, i'm just tired. and i notice as well er more so at night when i'm watching t vcv or even when i, i go to bed mm. my heart starts racing and i can feel the pulses in my neck and like my throat's constricting. mm. and i don't know why. right. any hot flushes? no. that i haven't had. right. now then you was put on premeren it was given at the hospital, wasn't it? yes it we because i was er my heart was racing and yeah. er what have you there. and before that you were having er horrendous irregular periods? yeah. yeah. let's have a look at er oh that's right, oh that's, that's a seven . hmm. no, well yeah. well i think the thing to do is to actually give you the higher dose patches. mhm. wh when you put people on the patches for the first time because the hormone goes straight into the system, rather than having to go through the gut, aha. if you've been short of hormone, you'll get a big boost straight away and, and you'll get the benefits. but if it's not quite enough, although you'll get the initial benefits they, they can tend to wear off, so some people are better on the higher, some people are better on the lower dose. and it looks like you could do with more. aha. the next step up is the hundreds, and you use them in exactly the same way, one twice a week. instead of being round they're sort of, sort of rectangular aha. type. now the last person i had moved on to the hundreds had enormous problems with the stickiness of them. so if you find they're not sticking, i would be delighted to hear, cos that means it's not just this woman it's actually aha. the patches that are causing yeah. problems. now in her case we put her on two fifties but that i uses up an awful lot of skin and it's a real hassle, so er i can imagine. so er i think that'd be the, the sensible thing to do. now i checked your blood pressure only four weeks ago and that was absolutely yeah. normal. er what we'll do is that i'll give you another eight of these, now if they're a lot better just s give a ring in yeah. okay? er that's ring for repeat and wh what we'd do is give you three monthly repeats, mm. after that, well i would, er it all depends who does the repeat prescription i suppose but er i would give you three monthly repeats. is that okay? yeah, that's fine. you've just got to be aware, they're a slightly different shape, and they're also bigger. aha. and that's the other thing about it you see, you've got to stick them down carefully. but they say that they won't come off when you go swimming, and you take your clothes on and off. we shall see. mm. unfortunately they've got the market cornered with these patches. mhm. one twice weekly the, so they're, there's only the these. no other firm does them so you can't say, let's try this firm's patches, cos they don't do them. actually i found them a lot more convenient than yeah. than the other form. mm. cos you tend to forget, yes. with the pills. yes. some people say they're so convenient they forget these as well. oh no i keep it at the side of my bed with the, the strip telling me oh right. which day i've got to, to change them. right. and i, they're there all the time, so good. i, i always remember. that's fine. okay then? okay then, thanks a lot. see you. bye. see if i can get this in focus for you. can everyone see that? okay? first of all, who are we? we are the largest independent manufacturer of high speed diesel engines. and the horsepower range we work from is from seventy six, to two thousand horsepower. and that is in fact from four cylinder to twenty four cylinder engines. er you'll see further on in the presentation, the product we produce at , which is the ten litre and the fourteen litre engine. and this actually goes down to about a hundred and eighty horsepower in some applications. and in fact we're now approaching the five hundred horsepower in the fourteen litre. this is incorporated internationally. sales in nineteen ninety one was three point four billion dollars, and in fact the figures for nineteen ninety two are just published in may of this year, is four point seven billion dollars. we produce annually, two hundred and eight thousand engines, in fact that's now approaching two hundred and fifty thousand engines. we employ twenty three thousand people worldwide. our annual research and development exceeds two hundred million dollars. in the u k consists of engine company limited, and there are three manufacturing sites that manufacture diesel engines. we've got which i'll go on to expand in a minute about. we've got another plant at darlington that produces a smaller series of engines. erm eighty to a hundred and forty horsepower. and a plant at daventry down in the midlands that does the big ones, two thousand horsepower. a few years ago we bought a company called who manufacture all the filters that we use. erm oil filters, air filters etcetera. we actually bought them over about seven or eight years ago. we now own them. located at , actually reconditions engines which are ten or fifteen years old. there's also a market there for people who can't afford to buy new product, and obviously still the engine's still got life in it. so with reconditioning, and new pistons and new liners etcetera, you get another ten years out of the engine. so you've probably seen them if you've ever been up past . on the motorway heading for . they're on the right hand side. , again located in the midlands down at wellingborough. are actually our distributer. who go out in the field and do field service support for our customers. were a separate independent company up till about three years ago, who produced nothing but turbochargers. erm turbocharging in diesel engines really came on about ten years ago. it's fairly new. er although most people think it's been there for a long time, it hasn't. turbocharging really only took off about ten years ago. this was a private company set up to produce turbochargers, which again, because we were one of their biggest customers, we eventually became partners and then bought them over. is a n a new company to us. er i'll go on to explain in the product range one of their new products we're introducing this year. is an electronic engine. and this company u k has developed the new control systems for it. er and holdings i'm sorry i know very little about. i know they remanufacture components for us, but i know very little about them. as far the united kingdom's concerned, nineteen ninety one almost five hundred million pound sterling turnover. producing thirty seven thousand engines. with almost five thousand employees. and as at the end of nineteen ninety one, we have almost two hundred million investment in the u k. the first plant that opened outside the main plant in columbus, was at . and it opened in nineteen fifty six. er there's various reasons why it was located at . one of the main ones being which we know now as . but er were one of our customers, buying engines from our mother company in the states. er the company was also at that time, looking to expand anyway into europe. erm and i think margaret had quite a lot to do with it being located at as well. so for various reasons, we actually found ourselves at . nineteen fifty six. the plant itself erm now worth thirty million pounds. there was a seventeen million pound extension built in nineteen started in nineteen eighty one, finished nineteen eighty five. we currently employ just over six hundred people. although when i joined the company fifteen years ago, we had only fifteen hundred people. er six hundred and fifty thousand square feet. almost, and as i say we do fourteen litre and ten litre engines. the ten litre engine is actually a metric engine. er it was introduced in nineteen eighty three. brand new engine, introduced in nineteen eighty three, and we decided at that time to go metric. er a hundred and eighty to now we've gone up to about three seventy horsepower with turbocharger. and in some cases we have a double char tur turbocharger. there's a photograph of the product. erm this here's the turbocharger arrangement. the fourteen litre engine is an old imperial engine. and when i say old, that was designed and developed in nineteen thirty five in the states. the basic engine has not changed at all. er sure there have been some improvements in the materials that we use. and that's just material technology advancing. but the basic engine design has not changed. on both products, what we are now going to is an electronic engine. we currently have a pressure regulated fuel injection system, developed by . own patented design. what we're now going to is electronic fuel injection. it gives a much better fuel economy. and again, that's a photograph of the fourteen litre engine. our main markets. well you can see from that, the main markets are actually the world. we are very heavily into south korea and china at the moment. erm about ten percent of the product goes to africa and australia. again, we're getting heavily into the middle east. and that's mostly for generator sets and pumping station equipment. er the european market is mostly either on or off highway. there are only really two main markets in europe and that's either the trucks or the excavators and the diggers off highway applications. er a typical example of an application, an e r f thirty eight tonne tractor unit. erm that one in actual fact has a ten litre pardon me engine in it. e r f currently produce about six trucks per day, and they're all powered. so every time you pass an e r f on the motorway or it passes you, it's one of our engines from that's powering it. er a company called in finland, who are the biggest truck manufacturer in finland. er and it's mostly fairly heavy lorries that they produce for as you can see, forestry work. erm i think that's their principal industry in finland is the forest. again we are the the sole supplier to them. these are various other applications. you'll recognize this one here. this is the local sprinter class rail car er diesel rail car which runs on our local railway network. they are all powered by , throughout the u k. er something like four hundred and seventy five of these units running, all powered. these are standby generator sets. for all sorts of applications. hospitals, pumping stations whatever. off highway applications in terms of diggers, erm and power equipment. and we do some marine not a lot of marine erm for some strange reason, our design of engine does not lend itself too well to marine applications. er we there's a lot of cast iron and steel in our engine and marine engines don't like that, they prefer brass. . er typical example of our technical investment,nineteen ninety one, we were round about a hundred and fifty million. this year, the plans for nineteen ninety three, ninety four are two hundred and fifty million. reinvestment in er in new equipment and research and engineering development. an aerial view of the plant. when we came here in nineteen fifty six, this was the original building. and in fact it was an old woollen mill called the . from nineteen eighty one to eighty seven, we expanded into this. erm it's a simple flow system, raw material comes in at one end and flows through the plant, through the machining areas, through the assembly, and the new product, the finished product comes out the end. the other building you see in the top left here is the hilton. that's the present . er a typical view down the assembly track or the beginning of the assembly track. you can see the engine block. very little built on to it at that stage. and the main things that we point out there are we have a nice natural flow system. we have material feeding in from each particular station at the side. operator doesn't have a lot of movement, minimum movement. erm there are twelve stations in that particular piece of assembly track. the track is continuously moving, and it pulses every ten point six minutes. so every ten point six minutes, another engine comes off the end. er a view of part of the machine shop. just showing the general layout and what we are trying to do in terms of housekeeping and cleanliness. machine shops and engineering works tend to be regarded as very dirty filthy places. and i'm afraid the nineteen nineties, that's not the attitude we want to adopt. er we pride ourselves on our housekeeping, it's a selling factor for us, and we have customers come round and look at the plant and they always commend us quite highly on our housekeeping. again another general view of a machine shop. you can just imagine, this place is cutting cast iron and metal all day, every day. so it looks quite good. er the finishing end of the assembly track, and you can see the engine is almost in a completed state. sixteen stations on this piece of piece of track. again pulsing at ten point six minutes. so again, a completed engine every ten minutes. and just a wee some of the achievements we've had in the last ten years. eight occasions, we've won the queen's award to industry. so we can't be doing too badly. any questions gentlemen or yes. yo you mentioned the fact that you had increased your capacity, but decreased your your er employee yes. erm in so that it's our fault really that we can't give work to our our er people. is there no way you can adopt a a a more way to to utilize the men rather than. there are there are various ways to that. obviously it's quite an emotive subject when as you say you're reducing putting people out the door. putting people out of work. the counter argument to that is, if you don't become more efficient, then you will lose the business anyway. and your competitor will take over. and all your people are out the door. so it's a cleft stick. and it's difficult, very difficult to strike the balance. erm, what we have tried to do at , there are you've probably seen or heard in the last five or six years, the influence of japanese technology. and you can't transpose totally japanese technology into the western hemisphere, but they have some good ideas. er and and you have to pick the ideas that you think can apply to to your application. and we've adopted two or three of these. one is what they call,cising or continuous improvement. and as you continuously improve an area, the people that that frees up, the additional labour, go on to do additional improvement work. so you can still support those people, and still get the benefit. so you're still reducing the cost of the product all the time, er and you can still retain the people. now there's obviously a saturation level. where you have more people that what you have improvement work for them to do. erm how far down the road that is, we don't know. but we've been honest with our people, we have not paid anyone off, in the fifteen years i've been at , that didn't want to go. it's all been voluntary redundancy or voluntary termination. but yes it's a very very difficult situation. it's survival on the one hand against moral issues on the other hand. difficult. manufacturing cars you know, and it's all these robots they're doing all the work. could the robots er take over er diesel engineering? is it not a possibility? well there are some other slides i could have got which we have a conrod line which manufactures the conrod, right? and you can imagine the conrod in your car is about this size. four of them in your one in each cylinder, goes up and down. the one in the diesel engines like this, you can hardly lift it. we have a conrod line that manufactures them . and in fact we manufacture conrods for other plants in the corporation. er the cost is fourteen million pounds for that machining unit for conrods. and it's six cells of about five or six machines in each cell. and they are fed by a robot. traditionally we had something like eight five, eighty seven people working in conrod manufacture, we now have fourteen operators, supported by six technicians. and the robots are doing that. so yes, we took on board robotic technology if you like, to reduce costs. in terms of engine assembly, no. er that will always be done by hand. there are alw there are always applications that you cannot robotize. erm and we pride ourselves on the skill and the quality that we build into the engine and you can't do that with robots. robots'll do whatever you ask them all the time, but they don't think. erm and because of the way of things, you don't always get the components the same way every day. you always get one reject . so the robot would pick that and use it. whereas the man will pick it and discard it. so there are applications you can use them and some you can't. your continuous improvement in in the factory a lot over the years. what is your relationship with the unions in the in the plant? erm initially,initially very bad, i have to say that. as i say, it's a very emotive subject. but if you are honest and up front with them, and tell them exactly what you're doing and why you're trying to do it, eventually over time, you get them and we started this in nineteen eighty five, eighty six. and i would say, now we are starting to see the fruits of that. and it's taken that length of time to break down the seventy or eighty year barriers that are in existence between workers and management. erm and i think there will always be, for some time yet, a wee bit of distrust there, on both sides. erm quite a lot you just have to be honest with people and tell i mean we've got it's unfortunate we can threaten people if you like, it's the wrong word to use. but you say to them, you know, look at , erm one week they announced, i can't remember the figures, twenty three million investment. four months later they closed it just like that. again, they closed and then reopened. so there're examples in the area where if we don't pull our socks up and and actually start working, then it could happen to us as well. but no, it was very difficult at first. it's still difficult at times, erm there is nothing forced into them, it's all through mutual discussion. erm there had been one or two occasions where we have to be the management if you like, and say, no i'm sorry, that is what we are doing. erm we've had enough discussion, we now need to go that way. but those occasions are very few and far between now. , where does the material come from for ? for the the engines themselves? the componentry ? erm we produce about thirty percent in house. and that's from u k sources of raw material. like castings. we do a lot of machining of castings. er of the other seventy percent, er about twenty five percent of that will be from bought in finished material, from companies in the u k. pardon me, one or two in scotland but not too many unfortunately. the remaining forty five, fifty percent, is actually bought in from america. remember we have got seven manufacturing site in the states that manufacture the same product for the american market. they therefore have bigger buying power, than one company in scotland. so they can buy as seven companies at a much cheaper rate and ship it across to us, and the sea freight is still doesn't add to the cost that much. er so unfortunately, fifty percent of material comes in from the states. how many of your what percentage of your staff on the shop floor are tradesmen? erm very few. we have most of our maintenance staff are time served fitters or electricians. in the actual machine shop and the assembly operators themselves. they are i would say, ninety percent semi- skilled. we have trained them in er in fact in the operations they're doing. you have to remember that was on old coal mining area. and again, i think one of the main reasons round about nineteen fifty six, that went there, was the pits were closing, and there was obviously erm government attractions to pull companies in. much more then than there is now. so we have a lot of ex-miners. erm but i would say it's mostly maintenance trades. we have gone slightly the other way with obviously robotics and the electronic age and this sort of thing. a lot of our machine tools are c n c, so we need to employ the skills there. erm but these are mostly technician people. i would say in the majority, it's semi-skilled. and a supplementary question going on from that. do you employ apprentices? yes we do. erm unfortunately not so many. we've taken apprentices every year since i've been there. erm when i started fifteen years ago, it was an intake of about twenty five er lads at a time, we're now down to about unfortunately eight or nine craft apprentices. and i think about three technical apprentices. we have erm one female apprentice who's time was just out there last year. she's a maintenance technician, and she actually won the scottish whatever it is, apprentice award. so we're quite proud of her, and she gets on great with the guys. and she's the only female on the floor. we have girls in the offices and women in the offices obviously, but she's the only tradesperson if you like, on the floor. but yeah, we're still taking them on but not in so many numbers. alec, erm do you have er company comparisons. you've got seven or more plants in the states elsewhere er you know on criteria such as erm quality and productivity, cost and so on. if so, how do make out in the company league table? right. we have, we started again, nineteen eighty nine, we decided taking on board some of the japanese ideas which we felt we could use. and discarded the rest which we felt did not transpose. we erm developed what we call c p s. which is the commons production system. to functional excellence. and there are ten measures within that production system. erm and these measures are criteria for every plant worldwide. now we have plants in india, brazil erm we now have one in china, we were about to open one in russia but it burned down. part of the deal, i don't know if you tread about it in the paper. six hundred and thirty million we lost. erm and it's the same criteria worldwide. we have corporate headquarters obviously dictate policy. and you have to adjust that policy at local level. because some of the ideas and and and beliefs in america for example, don't hold good up in . and vice versa. but the basic top level objective policy is set plan you know, worldwide for each plant. and against that, these ten measures are measured. erm in fact housekeeping in one of them would you believe. housekeeping is one of the measures. erm out of the ten, i would say, we have got about seven above target, and three below target. and the ones that are below target funnily enough, are productivity, which is still measured, and i don't agree with that. productivity's an old fashioned measure. what you could actually measure is delivery to your customer. but we still measure productivity. erm and we are slightly below target on that. we are above target in quality. we are above target in housekeeping. so in a sort of worldwide league table if you like, we're well above average. and you're right because these are the things that when when your vice president and you president come every year, as they do, on their annual visit, and they go to gleneagles for their game of golf first. erm they are in the plant i don't know, maybe four hours or six hours. two or three of those hours are spent reviewing the financial results. obviously we still need to make money. that's why we're in business. the other two or three hours are on the floor. and it's that three hours that's the impression that they take away with them. that's the only chance you get in that one whole year, to impress these people. so when they're sitting in their corporate offices, making decisions about, well where will we send the work. well last time i was at it was dirty. guys were hanging about, standing all over the place, not their backside. that's the impression they have of . and this is the m the message you have to get across to the people. and we are we are getting there. we're getting there. and one of the things we did this year for example. which i find very difficult, is we actually went no smoking on the first of january. erm and that was after we put out a referendum around the plant and we got a seventy eight response saying, no smoking. so there's a mass exodus to the car park now at lunchtime. anything else? in the you mentioned smoking. what about the standards of lavatories and that? i'm not sure i understand your question . er are the toilets kept up to a high standard? well i'll let my son answer that, he's actually been in the plant a couple of times and what's your impression of the place? er they're alright. yes it's fine. i mean it's in actual fact the the number of people i've had in and one thing i should say, if you feel you would like a visit one evening, to the plant, then i'm more than welcome to try and organize something for you. but the number of people that i've had in erm both customers and visitors like yourselves, that have been so impressed by the standards of housekeeping and cleanliness and tidiness, for an engineering facility. erm it really is quite outstanding. and we are not the best. there are people better. what about future development. everything seems to be on a big scale, there's no question about scaling down? well in fact, what happened erm last year is we reduced the size of our machine shop. we lost twenty three thousand square feet last year. and this was mostly because of old machine tools being tossed away. erm for example we have a flexible machining system of six machines that replaced forty two. so that obviously reduces your floor space. and what we are trying to do is attract other business into that floor space. erm we started a contract a year and a half ago with m o d to produce a power pack for a fighting vehicle. called the a s ninety fighting vehicle, built by ship building down at barrow. we're doing a hundred and seventy nine of these for the british army. a big big contract worth a lot of money. erm there's a repair programme for south african railways, to repair erm all their tractors, big things. er again we're hoping to attract that in maybe next year. so no, we don't want to scale down. we want to increase, we want er we want to be at for as long as we can. provide employment for as long as we can. for as many as we can. what about scaling down the engine size? what about getting into the car market no. no it's we're not we're not in there's there are people who are more established at that bill, better at it and longer at it than we are. we are high speed diesel manufacturers in the big range. in the range that you saw. erm we we there's a company called . erm american company who have a big holding in germany, who produce combine harvesters and this type of stuff, agricultural equipment. we got into a partnership with them to develop a small engine a couple of years ago, for their application. it was down round about the forty two, forty five horsepower mark. but no, we just we couldn't get the cost right. we just couldn't compete at that you need to produce thousands and thousands of these things, to get the economies of scale. and er we just couldn't do it. and we d actually from that. okay, well. now i'm ha i'm handing round a summary of last week's lecture, which i hope will make more sense of it, and i have here, if anybody wants to borrow it, a xerox of chapter three in dorkins' book where he explains the blind watchmaker, and the manual for the disk. now for copyright reasons, if you want to do the blind watchmaker, and i'd very much like you to, you've gotta borrow the disk from me, okay? so if you want it, my advice is take the xerox or read the book. when you've read it come and ask me for the disk and i'll lend it to you. erm, i've also got a rather smaller number of copies of ev evolvematic notes if you wanna do evolvematic, which i also demonstrated briefly. so if you wanna do evolvematic i've got the notes for that ya, explained in the handout that's coming round, okay? thanks very much. so everybody got a handout did they? right. i've also got more copies of the reading list which i've forgotten to bring with me but which i have got er upstairs and they're pinned to my door, if anybody needs another reading list, okay? but i forgot to bring those with me. erm, let me remind you that at twelve o'clock today er i've booked s o one eight. who's coming to s o one eight? erm, for fun, you have a story and you're allowed to play alright then. er, i'll tell you a story and i'll let you play a game. s o one eight. okay, that's at twelve o'clock. now what i want to do. let me just explain, if you can't make it, or if you don't want to do it, i will er re-do it all again in the lecture next friday at eleven. next friday at eleven i will go over it all again in the lecture. so er, however, i think you'll get much more out of it if you come today and do it first. if you do it first, you're gonna really understand what i'm going on about. but er in other words don't worry if you don't understand everything today when you do do it because we'll go over it next erm next week in the lecture and we'll be going over it in classes as well. some of you have done a prisoner's dilemma. now if you've done a prisoner's dilemma you don't have to come. you've already done it okay? now what i want to do in this lecture is to finish off the er introductory part of my, of my remarks and take us up to the point where beginning at twelve o'clock the real part, the real er core of this course begins when we start to look at social theory. now, you'll recall that last week i was talking about darwin's basic concept and i tried to explain it to you and to illustrate it to you. one of the big problems about erm teaching people what darwin really said is that people's concept of evolution by natural selection is er contaminated by ideas which were actually originated, not by darwin, but by the founder of british sociology, herbert spencer, whose dates were nineteen twenty to nineteen o three. as you'll see, a contemporary of darwin who actually lived a little bit longer than he did. it was spencer, and not charles darwin, who formulated the slogan, and that's all it is, survival of the fittest. it was not darwin. darwin erm was prevailed upon to use it and did so occasionally, but rather reluctantly, and rightly so. i say rightly so because herbert spencer's theory of evolution was fundamentally different from darwin's, even though it's often confused with it. herbert spencer believed that there was a cosmic metaphysical er life force, if you like, and that evolution to higher, more complex and more integrated entities was a fundamental aspect of physics, biology and sociology. so he applied it erm more or less universally, not just to biological evolution and as darwin had. he applied it to er the evolution of the cosmos as a whole and indeed to society, and believed that there was an ine inevitable onward and upward tendency of evolution from simple to complex, from isolated to unified, from erm stupid to more intelligent and so on. and standing on the pinnacle of course of this process of evolution erm er who were living in the most advanced societies and so on. there's a bust of spencer in the library actually near the, opposite the erm, enquiry desk. erm, you can go down and have a look at him there. erm, well spencer was a great great great bloke from many points of view but er unfortunately his ideas of er evolution were er mixed up as it were. erm, one of the worst consequences of this was this awful phrase, survival of the fittest. now, erm, what's wrong with this if you think about it, is that er it's hard to know what fitness and fittest means and although i'm now gonna spend about ten minutes talking about it, this will be the last time you'll hear me mention the word fitness, and i strongly advise you to do the same, for reasons which i will now n now explain. the trouble with the slogan, survival of the fittest, is that it gives the impression that evolution is all about creating a kind of super race, you know, like you saw in nazi propaganda films, you know, blonde erm muscly beasts as it were, who were the th the sort of pinnacles of, of, of creation. the idea that evolution made organisms fitter in the sense of sporting sense of fitness or personal health. if you think about it, even in terms of sport, the whole concept of fitness is very very ambiguous. for example, erm, you sumo wrestling but would that make you fit for sprint racing? of course it wouldn't. there's nobody in this room who couldn't win a sprint race against a sumo wrestler now, without any practice, even in stockinged feet you could do it. and yet i don't think there's anybody in this room who could last a minute in a ring with a sumo wrestler because obviously being fit for sumo wrestling is quite different from being fit for sprint running, you need a completely different physique. so even in terms of sporting meaning of fitness, it means completely different things in different contexts, and it certainly means er different things in terms of evolution. for example, er, males are fitter than females, er human males, in the sense of sporting achievement and this is why all sporting events that we rely on athletic prowess have to be segregated. you can't you know have olympic sports for males and females because males would always win. now,from trivers and actually it would be better on the, on the proper thing wouldn't it? let's try and get it on the board, which somebody has written on and i told them about that and asked them to clean it, but, bring a spray can of white paint next time. erm, excess male mortality in humans as a function of age. straight out of trivers. as you can see, males die more than females throughout their, throughout their lifespan. that's more of that. erm, here's a more detailed one. this is excess mortality of er rates for males and females age one to four for different years of the twentieth century. you can see that modern health care has made no difference, so you can't say it was anything to do with health care. in fact, if anything, little boys die more than little girls, even more now than they used to in the past, so it can't be anything to do with health care in case yeah, yeah, these are all straight out of trivers. erm, ratio of injuries to deaths er for all accidents as a function of age and sex, and again, you can see males have, males do a lot worse than females and i think there's one more, no sorry that's the lot. erm, the facts are, and this is all in trivers if you want to look up erm if you want to look it up in more detail, that males die more readily than females, from all causes that affect both sexes and some that even don't and you'd be astonished about, like for instance, you gather from john book on the myth of he heterosexual you're not allowed to buy in this country, you have to import it from the u s. it's a kind of censorship er on the part of the, part of the erm british publishing industry. but that book gave the astonishing statistic that in nineteen ninety, or nineteen eighty eight in the u s, more men died from breast cancer in the u s than women died from heterosexually contracted aids. i mean i didn't know that many men died of breast cancer but apparently they do. not as many as women die of course but men even die of breast cancer. so the point i'm making to you is, is this. that if evolution was all about survival of the fittest, and if men are physically fitter in the sense of sporting prowess, which they unquestionable are, how has evolution produced the situation in which men have less life expectancy than women do from every point of view this far? well, the answer to that of course is that what reduces erm male life expectancy is the very same thing that promotes their reproductive success, namely the direct and the indirect effects of testosterone. the male sex hormone testosterone er makes males bigger, er they've bigger bones, more muscle and so on, this gives them their sporting prowess and this is why of course er you've had all these better as a result. it produces that effect but it also makes er males more aggressive, more likely to take risks, which explains the accident figures, more likely to become involved in violence. it increases their resting metabolic rate by about five percent engine is running about one twentieth faster all the time, so perhaps this is why it wears out quicker. they've got less fat to insulate them from cold. they're generally bigger so when they fall they fall heavier. all this kind of thing. it all adds up to making males survive less well than females. however, the other consequence of it is it promotes their reproductive success and you can erm you can see that it is indeed an effect of testosterone if you castrated live longer than uncastrated males, and the earlier they're castrated, the longer they live. so they can expect to live more or less as long as any, as, as, as any woman does. so erm, if you think about it, you could say well okay, if the evolution is all about survival of the fittest and if fitness means surviving longer why doesn't evolution select all males without testes? hmm, the answer's obvious. a male without testes would live longer than a, than a male with them, undoubtedly, on average five to seven years longer, and erm generally be more healthy in terms of avoiding a lot of problems that, that they might have had through being male. but, of course, such a male could never reproduce and natural selection is ultimately a question of reproductive success, not of fitness, and in fact from now on you will find me avoiding the term fitness and instead talking about reproductive success, and you'll find that all the best literature, like trivers' book, does the same thing. so from now on, let's forget the concept of fitness, which was herbert spencer's and not darwin's. let's just remember that it's wrong. let's not use this awful slogan the survival of the fit fittest for all its social darwinist terms. because it's, it's completely wrong and misleading, and let's instead talk about the ultimate bottom line in evolution which is reproductive success. natural selection selects for reproductive success. of course, organisms have to survive and may need to be, to have erm fitness in the sporting sense in order to have reproductive success. this is certainly true. but, such survival or strength or erm or sporting prowess, will only be selected if i if it promotes ultimate reproductive success. that's its final aim as it were. it's a secondary matter by comparison with reproductive success. and that all, is all natural selection is. ultimate natural selection, and this is darwin's idea, not spencer's. darwin's idea was organisms which have heritable praise for superior reproductive success will, by definition, leave more offspring behind it. and that's basically all it boils down to. so the reason why males die more readily than females, and this is true for nature by the way, not just human levels, it's a practical universal effect that the males die more readily than females, that males are ultimately selected for reproductive success for erm survival as such. everybody, everybody clear on that matter. okay. one of darwin's big problems and to some extent darwin didn't know about genetics. he had ideas of his own but they were all wrong. he had a theory but it's wrong. er, the truth about genetics was discovered more or less the same time darwin put forward his theory in the early eighteen sixties by who was er erm carried out erm experiments in sweetpeas in the monastery garden and apparently sent a copy of his paper to darwin. the, the letter was found among darwin's effects unopened. er, if only darwin had opened it, darwin would have saved himself an, all, load of old trouble. so the moral of this folks is, always open your junk mail, even if it's from czechoslovakia. the only mail i get from czechoslovakia is a junk mail actually, it's all about some wine club that i never want to belong to, but erm, if darwin had only opened it, er don't throw it away, it could be, it could be th it could be the paper from that will save you infinite trouble. well, erm, darwin didn't know about genetics and the result of this was he had big problems. one of his big problems was, his theory, as we've seen, demanded genetic variation, and in order to, to provide the raw material for natural selection to work on, it demanded mutations. so darwin had a concept of mutation which was a random genetic change . erm,was, or so his critics said, that er his theory just would not work and the kind of argument that they produced against him, and poor old darwin really didn't have an answer to this, and i it seemed a very very severe problem at the time was look, supposing that er i'm a mutant you might think. i'm a mutant, okay? l s e mutant lecturer gives lecture on mutations. erm, it's kind of er you know, erm, it's a headline in the sunday sport or something. you see, i've never been in the sunday sport. my colleague has, and everybody rather, rather resents him for that. it's quite an achievement being in the sunday sport. anyway,wh what'd i say? yes, supposing i'm mutant and i have, i have a mutation which promotes my reproductive success one hundred percent. this is a very good mutation to have, okay? however, darwin's critics said because of sexual reproduction i will only pass half that mutation on to my offspring because even then everybody knew that half of an organism's inheritance in genetic, in erm sexual reproduction comes from the other parent. so therefore they argued, my children will only get half the mutation, or half the effects of it, fifty percent increase in reproductive success. their children will have half again, twenty five percent increase in reproductive success. and in only seven or eight generations, it's dropped to less than one percent. how, said his critics, can darwin explain how a mutation, even if it's terribly advantageous to an organism, could ever get fixed as it were, in, in evolutionary terms. it looked as if blending inheritance, which at that time was believed in, was going to rule out the possibility that erm that such things er could occur. well, of course, darwin really had no answer to that and today we today we do because nowadays we know how evolution works, and erm what we now know that darwin did not know, is that the genetic code is based, this is just an illustration from a standard book, you can find this in more or less any, any book. er, this is actually from i think a scientific american one. we now know that erm that the genetics is based upon a an organic polymer called d n a, short for acid, a polymer is just the one molecule with repeating making long in principle. the, it consists of two strands which are made of sugar phosphates and which spiral round each other, and the strands are linked together like, like the, the rungs of a ladder by bases, and there are four bases,and and always pairs up with and er and always pairs up with so that the pattern of bases on one of these sugar phosphate strands always has a corresponding pattern on the other. what happens in er in genetics and how the genetic code is passed on, is that er this double strand of er this double strand is unzipped as it were, and it is just like a kind of zip fastener in that the teeth are the corresponding bases. it unzips, producing two separate strands which can then be copied, and this is basically how genetic information is passed on. within a cell what happens is this right a cell, what happens is that erm d n a is copied on to something called erm r n a, which is a kind of template, messenger r n a, it's a kind of copy and it's a single strand, corresponding to one of the strands on the original d n a with the same base structure. and it passes through elements in a cell called and as it passes through a the genetic information on the on the r n a d n a is read off and proteins are produced, so the is a kind of read head which reads out the genetic information. the information it reads is a code which has now been broken and this is the code. this is the genetic code here. erm, bases are read three at a time. in fact er u here stands for ,in d n a replaces er in r n a replaces in d n a. it's a little detail. what happens is, as the r n a strand goes through the the genetic code is read out three bases at a time and this is a, is a table which reproduces all the three base combinations you can have, and shows you which amino acids they code for. an amino acid is a chemical sub-unit of a protein, and ultimately everything that happens in a cell it produces some kind of protein, so you can see that erm the triplet or produces erm which is one of the, one of the er amino acids and so on and there are also punctuation marks u a a or u a g means stop, as does u g a, so when, when a r n a template running through a gets to a sequence which reads, where was it now, u a a it stops reading because it knows it's got to the end of the gene. that is the way er genetics works. as i said, this is just a very simple fine schematic description for you and you can look at the details anywhere. erm, we don't really need to concern ourselves with it in detail, thank god, because genetics is a terribly complicated business and awfully technical and i don't understand a, a tenth of it, and we don't really need to. an excellent new book that's come out and you can easily buy because it's only six nine nine, and is book, erm kind of bedtime reading. it explains how the genetic code was broken, erm how they discovered about genes and so on, very up to date, scientifically completely correct and a good read. so, if you want to read up the background to all this, this is th one of the best books and one of the most recent on the reading list, it's on the reading list on the second page or something. do you wanna ask a question, or are you just stretching? no, no, stretching stretching, okey-dokey. erm ah right okay. so wh what i'm saying is erm, our modern view, the consequence of this is our modern view of evolution and i can't think of a better way to illustrate it than this, is that organisms ultimately are, can really been seen, rather like this. this is one of the simplest organisms that we know about. this is something called a t four bacteria . bacteria is just greek for and er this is a virus which infects the human gut bacterium . y you have alo millions of these things in your gut and you need them to help you digest your food. if your bugs get sick a possibility is they're gonna get sick because they're being attacked by one of these things, and it's a virus, terribly small of course. it looks a bit like er the lunar module that landed on the moon. it has a, a, a, a head which is a kind of protein capsule, inside which the d n a is curled up. there's er a collar and a what they call a which is a protein tube and then it has various spikes at the end that make it stick on to the outside of the bacteria. and what happens is, they float around and when they come in contact with a bacterium, they stick into the wall and the d n a tube is inserted through the bacterial wall into the psychoplasm of the bacteria, and the d n a is just pumped into it as if from a hypodermic syringe. inside the bacterium the d n a of the erm c of the t four bacteria then starts hijacks the cellulum material, like the you saw before, in the cell, and instead of making the things that the cell wants to make, it starts to make bits of the of the t four bacteria . the head is made, erm, the tail, all the bits are made and eventually they, they all stick together like a kind of lego, and the result is a new bacteria is made and this goes on until eventually the cell, there are so many inside the cell, that erm the cell just ruptures, when there're about two hundred or so, the cell is now bulging with t four bacteria , it ruptures and releases a whole blob of new ones to start the cycle all over again. now, you may think that er you and i are very different from a t four bacteria but personally, and i on can only speak for myself, i can't speak for you of course, but personally i'm prepared to accept that basically i'm really nothing more than a very very complicated and much bigger t four bacterial . as far as evolution is concerned, i, and this is really the essence of our modern view, i am really nothing more than the packaging of my genes, because after all this is what evolution acts on. evolution ultimately selects for the erm reproductive success of individual organisms, and you can see very clearly in the case of the t four bac bacterial that it is really nothing more than the temporary protein packaging of its d n a. now admittedly, the t four bacterial is a very simple organism, it can't leap about so it doesn't need senses or a brain to direct it, or muscles or anything like that, it can't repair itself or change itself once it's been made, therefore it doesn't need to digest food, er to, to have an immune system or anything like that to repair itself or put itself to rights, it doesn't need anything like that. erm, it's a very very simplified organism. because it reproduces inside another cell in this parasitic way, erm, it doesn't have to find a mate or even bother to split in half to reproduce by asexual means. it's, it's a very simple organism, but basically what it's there for is to ensure the future of t four genes, and this is what i it's doing, and presumably natural selection has er selected it in such a way that it is an optimum design as far as, as far as doing this er is concerned, because it would be in competition with mutant t fours who did it in different ways, and presumably this is the kind of t four that seems to succeed. and i'm certainly prepared to admit that from the point of view of erm evolution, i too am er little more than a biodegradable package er for my genes, because, after all, if natural selection really were about fitness and perfecting the organisms, in terms of making the organism more perfect, more fit, more survivable, why don't we live forever, or, or almost forever? after all, evolution has been going on now for about four billion years as far as we know and there aren't very many long-lived organisms. there are some, like erm, oak trees live five or six hundred years if they're lucky,pines can live for a thousand years, giant tortoises for two hundred, well these are quite impressive figures, but let's face it it's not very long, erm, compared with the time that evolution has been at it. why hasn't evolution produced organisms that practically last for selecting for is reproductive success. reproductive success, we now know, and darwin didn't of course, means passing on your genes. that is what a t four bacteria is for and that's what i am for, and i would suggest y ultimately what you are for as well, and this is why in the end erm nature will cast us aside. we're just the kind of biodegradable packaging. the mistake that the social darwinists like herbert spencer made, and that popular opinion still makes about evolution, is the kind of mistake that aliens might make if they landed in a safeway supermarket car park. i mean a real safeway, you know, the ones you see in the u s where everything you know, even the trolleys, are seven times bigger, erm n n not like they are, you know, the aliens land in the car park of the maple valley safeways in washington state, and, and observe people coming out of it with enormous piles of shopping. er, what do they think? they think people are buying cartons and bottles and tins and packets. they might be astonished to find, soon after, that those very same cartons and bottles and tins have perhaps been thrown out in people's, in people's . well, of course, you and i know that the reason you go to safeways to buy things is not to get the packaging, not usually, what you're interested in is what's inside the packets. we consume what's inside the packets we buy in our groceries, we consume the contents of the bottle, what's in the carton, we throw it away. it's no, no, no further use to us. it seems to me that's an analogy with natural selection. if you conceive the, the organism has a temporary packaging as a kind of protein coat around its, its genes, which t four bacteria clearly is, then once the genes have been passed on, the packaging is no further use and can be discarded. so it seems to me that the existence of death, the fact that organisms don't live forever, and they certainly are not perfected in terms of personal fitness or survivability, because they get diseases and they die suggests to me that our modern insight into evolution acting on individual genes is, is correct. namely, that organisms evolved to be the biodegradable packaging of those genes. i know this is a bit of an affront to our high opinion of ourselves as human beings, er, of course many people regard it that way, but erm my view is that er we can't expect science necessarily to tell us things we want to hear. human fantasy and for our benefit. had darwin known about this you see darwin could have turned on his critics and said, look, in the first place you're quite wrong about genetics, there is no or at least there doesn't have to be because mutations occur as errors or changes in the base sequences in, in the genetic code. this is our modern concept of a mutation. to go back to my earlier diagram, what happens erm in a, in a mutation, let me find the right one, is that the change occurs in, in these in these bases. one of these base pairs erm another combination is substituted, either by, by er some kind of error in or by the influence of something like erm bac background radiation or some kind of chemical effect or something like that. a mutation means a single based change in the genetic code which may or may not have er ultimate consequences for the organism. since erm sexually reproducing organisms are and i've tried to keep technical jargon in this course to a minimum, but one term we'll have to learn is diploid, you can't do without it. diploid means that you get two complete sets of all your genes in sexual reproduction, one from each parent. it's just greek for two-ply, that's all it is. it's a greek word meaning two-ply, as in a two-ply bug, a bug with two, two er wires in it. erm, we are two-ply, diploid, in a sense that we get one set of our genes from one parent and another complete set from the other parent. now, if one parent has a mutant, has a mutation, supposing i, let's go back to me being a mutant which i was rather enjoying, erm, i'm the mutant with a gene which increases my reproductive success by one hundred percent. darwin's critics were wrong when they said that all my offspring would inherit half of it. on the contrary, half my offspring will inherit all of it. i will hand on that gene complete to half my offspring, because all my offspring will get half my genes. therefore the chances are, and this is statistical, it's a statistical chance, in general i can expect any mutation in me to be passed on to half my offspring complete. it won't be dilute, therefore part of my offspring will find their reproductive success enhanced by one hundred percent offspring will find their reproductive success enhanced by one hundred percent. other words, if we think of a mutation as a change in a single gene, then mutations are not diluted. they're handed on complete to every generation and they have their effects in every generation. and, as you can see, if i did have a m a mutant gene that promoted reproductive success by a hundred percent what natural selection means, enhanced reproductive success.? always say this because, you know, developments happen all the time, but as far as we know, genes are handed on as complete discrete enti entities, in units is what discovered. breeding experiments erm showed this. i mean, he didn't know about genes and he was rather lucky that he chose to study the aspects of things he did. but we now know that what discovered was individual genes and, as far as we know, individual genes are always handed on complete and intact. about this myself because i think it's complex. sometimes i think both genes are used, sometimes only one, not the other, and i'm not sure that anybody knows exactly how, how and why that works out but erm i was hoping not to mention this, but since raised it, we'll have to. erm, some genes are different in that some genes are called dominant and some genes are called recessive. now this is not all, all genes, just some genes. genes. if you, if you get a recessive gene from one of your parents that have a corresponding dominant gene in the other, then only the dominant gene is expressed in your body. however, if you get two copies of a recessive gene from both parents, then the recessive gene will be expressed. now this is important because another criticism th th that darwin's critics made was, hey look, sometimes people inherit things that're very bad for them. a very good example would be haemophilia in, in queen victoria. queen victoria had a gene of haemophilia. she passed it on to about half her offspring. by astonishing good luck they all married . the british royal family is now clear of haemophilia, they don't have it at all. so they go on marrying into their tiny little self-perpetuating group as much as they like, they're not gonna b suffer from haemophilia. er, yeah, i will say what i was going to say. erm,th the russian royal family have er got it. now, people said, how could darwin explain how something like haemophilia could keep going? or, of course, what darwin didn't know bu but discovered was haemophilia keeps going because it's recessive. it hides as it were behind dominant genes which are normally okay. it only shows itself if by mischance you get two haemophilia genes, two recessives, at that point in your, in your erm you're in very serious trouble. but that doesn't happen very often and natural selection of course will then select out individuals with two recessive genes but since those don't show up very often, it's a rather weak effect. it's a sex link as you say. erm mentioning the white chromosome reminds me of another thing i wanted to say, because erm another variant of this incorrect criticism that people made of darwin about blending , and you still hear this today, and people should know better, especially the social sciences, is, oh, single genes cannot influence behaviour. even if you had a single gene which is terribly important, erm because human beings are complex everything they do is affected by large numbers of genes a number of examples that contradict that. by far the best one is one suggested by, by the white chromosome as being male. there is indeed a single gene male which has recently been and it acts as a switch. and what happens is that if an embryo has the single gene for being male, it happens to have a white chromosome not surprisingly, it turns on thousands of other genes that then make the embryo into a male, but, but that single gene has to be there to act as a switch and that's that gene is also present in alligators and crocodiles so the point i'm making is it is just wrong to say that, that all these discoveries about genetics cut no ice with human evolution, because human things cannot be influenced by single genes. i'm afraid that is not true. the situation is this. if, if you have, if both your copies of that gene are recessive then it if only one is recessive and the other is dominant, it doesn't both dominant only just beginning to find out, but you're quite right, it is contrary. there is recent evidence, for instance, that there is want erm different things from what females the package does seem to be put together in, in, in one way that seems to be fundamentally fair. and that is, when, i can't remember what it's called, and erm when the sex cells are made exactly half of an individual's genes go into each, and when sex cells er come together in a fertilized exactly half of each parent's genes are fitted together, so that's completely fair, well almost completely fair, because there are a few genes outside the nucleus that only get they're, they're in a rather minority. so it looks as if er nature has kind of erm struck a bargain in this respect, that each parent can contribute exactly half, but i think it's, we're only just beginning to find out about what happens then and my guess is about internal conflict between genes because i strongly suspect that there must be a lot of that going on because, as i think you've rightly seen, if we take this view of evolution as selecting for individual genes, then we would expect conflict even within the gender. i think w i think how it works it, it's, it's, it's, i don't think you can say it's the right package. i think th th that's a kind of er value judgment, all i can say is well wh i think all you can say is, you end up with a, with a package of genes which you got from your parents. you may be okay, you may not be okay, you've got two recessives per human figure, you're not er, all one can say is genes are kind of heaped together and natural selection doesn't really care. what natural selection does seem to care about as far as sex is concerned is that there is constant re-combination and this is a question of sexual that we'll touch on later. it looks as if sex evolved because it's in the interest of genes to constantly be re-combined self interest not always in company with the same others may want to be er mixing themselves up, so they launch themselves in continually different combinations, and this presumably each gene what, what, what is happening is a constant filtering process all the time, by means of which natural selection is working on basically random changes in the final point i want to make and that's yes, genes, yes. or are they yes, for every, for every individual gene you get from your mother, you get a corresponding individual gene from your father at the same place, place on the perimeter at the same place on the perimeter. but, but, genes themselves are spread all over the perimeter, so you might well find that er genes there's more of them than others, yes, yes, but genetics is a complex issue. i dare say knows more about this than i do. ask her. i just wanna finish with one point. there's one final point i want to make because this acts as a kind of prelude to what we're gonna do now down in s o one eight, and to the main start of the course, and that's this. i now want to prove to you that this kind of evolution i've been talking about, evolution by natural selection, at the level of individual genes, cannot produce social cooperation. the argument goes like this. supposing we start off with, erm, we had to explain the origins of cooperation. supposing we start off with a species of selfish individuals. now we, we define cooperation as altruism here and we'll go over this again. i'm just quickly introducing altruism as any behaviour that promotes the reproductive success of the beneficiary at a cost to the reproductive success of the altruist. now, imagine what happens if a gene for altruism . what will happen in a population of selfish organisms? by definition the gene must promote the reproductive success of the selfish organisms at a cost to itself but a gene for altruism could evolve in a population of selfish individuals a population of altruists, in whom a gene for selfishness appears by random mutation. by definition, the altruistic majority must promote the reproductive success of the selfish the reproductive success of the selfish organism, the mutant, will be far greater than the altruist, and within a few generations of selfish individuals. it would to find altruism in the way we could find but social cooperation or self-sacrifice or altruism could evolve by natural selection. does everybody see that? q e d, we seem to have proved that what happens all around us cannot namely altruism and cooperation. what we will now do is go down to s o one eight and we will discover the answer to this, or we will begin to discover the answer to this. first by erm having a story and then by playing a game, and in playing that game before us the answer to this deep problem will emerge. we will see how cooperation evolves. s o one eight, for those of you who don't know, is in the basement of saint clements building. are any of you experienced map users? right, okay. if anybody wants blind watchmaker i have it here, ditto evolvematic. yes. yes, in terms of this definition it has to be because that's the only, that's the bottom line of evolution, and it's the only quantitative measure we can ever have, it's the only when you're ready, there's no hurry. yeah, good idea. i dunno whether you wanted a mark for this. i gave you one. erm, just one little slip, you put eighteen fif nineteen fifty nine, it was eighteen fifty nine wasn't it, the origin of species? that was just a slip. an excellent, very clearly and very correctly expressed. excellent essay. well done. a minus, okay? okay, great. i thought that was really good, well done. fine, thanks a lot. so, that's the other one. yeah, cos i haven't, i mean there's a lot of reading to catch up on, so i figured let's just have a look at the erm, let's do the who've we got, bill? malcolm, we haven't got malcolm have we?, isn't it? what's your surname again tracy?, that's right. i've got you down as here for the last three. right, so who's performing today? i am. right, you are expert. well, we're not supposed to start till five past, so let's give them a couple more minutes just in case they're caught in the lift or something. reed, sorry i haven't got reed either have i? no. right. i think this is better cos i think the friday one is fuller. so i think we've done the right thing. erm, what's your surname again? , that's right. okay. so i've mentioned everyone, i haven't overlooked anybody have i? . oh no, as i was saying to reed the other day, er reed has joined our class by the way. let me introduce you because you weren't here when we did the introductions, were you? let me introduce you to the class. this is tracy, this is alex, this is bill, this is theresa, this is katherine and this is hayley, and there are one or two others who aren't here yet who may turn up. now, reed is er joining us just for this term, isn't it? and er we've allocated all the class papers so erm that means you escape unless you really do want to do er a class presentation. you could perhaps team up with somebody else if you wanted to, so if you see someone and we're just going through the order in which they appear. so, so you missed er least week's, that was number one, that's number two . hi, come on in, take a seat. that was susan, wasn't it? and malcolm wasn't it? no, not malcolm, jake. jake wasn't it? trust your instincts. you can have one of the other chairs. did anybody leave that scarf behind last night because i found it on my chair. oh, it was friday was it? oh, it was the evolution. yeah, could be, could be. okay, it's just about five past so we can probably start with a clear conscience. if anybody else comes, they're late. so we're doing dreams. theresa. all, i mean you've said just about everything i think. i mean, that was a very full and complete account. you obviously did a lot of work for that. what did you read? the introductory lectures, was it? yeah and then i read it is a big book, you're absolutely right. er, well, well done, that was absolutely excellent. i mean, you erm you really did, did cover, cover just about everything. erm, what about examples though? that was one thing that was missing. i mean, i'm n this is no criticism because you, you couldn't er, you'd have taken up the whole hour if you'd included examples. but did any examples occur to you? i mean, have you had dreams of your own that you thought this related to in any way? now, why was that? yeah, you have a recurrent dream, okay. well look, we won't embarrass you by asking you to tell us what it is, but what we will do unless you want to. well, erm, er, is it, is it a very short one? yes alright, tell us the dream. because you've missed something. and that's the dream. that's the dream. now do you wake up from this dream in a state of anxiety? does it wake you or do you just no, it doesn't wake me. it doesn't wake you. so it's not an anxiety dream. you don't wake up thinking, oh my god, i've failed the exam, no. well, okay. this is an example of a dream. now what would freud call the dream as theresa has told us it? the manifest. right, that's called the manifest content. now does everybody understand that? because this is quite an important distinction to make. that's the manifest dream. that's the dream as theresa dreamt it and as she recounted it to us. okay. now, erm, if er theresa was interested in analyzing this dream er how should she have gone about it? what's the next step? having, having got the manifest content, what, what does freud's theory of dreams tell us we need to do next? in, in what sense? yes, and what would we do with those elements, what right, and how would we do that? well, er,wh what we want to do, what we want to do is to relate this manifest content that you've told us to what, what's the other thing? to the latent content, right. now the, the, what connects the two things together because we assume there is a latent content in, in this dream? what's, how do we establish the connection between the manifest content of the dream and the latent ? right, that's the key word i was looking for. associations. jake, was that what you were gonna say? erm because you looked as if you were winding up to say something. right, that's right, yes. that's another way of saying it. what the, the links between the manifest and the latent content are what in the technical jargon of psychoanalysis we would call free associations. in other words, they're ideas that occur to you. so if you were, if you were having an analysis shall we say theresa, you reported your dream to the analyst. what the analyst would say to you in trying to help you to resolve this dream would be, well, report what you think of in connection with the manifest content. in other words, friends at the school and the idea, as you said at the very beginning of your paper, is to report without any kind of erm censorship or judgment. you would just say things that pop in to you mind and er it's essential of course, if you're gonna do dream analysis properly, that you must obey that rule. if you deviate from it, and it's terribly easy to deviate from it by rejecting certain thoughts, oh that's silly, that's not relevant, that's too obvious, that's objectionable, erm, that's too freudian, you know, if you say that kind of thing to yourself you get nowhere. because you see what is, now n why won't you get anywhere? what's the, what's,w why isn't this kind of process easy? why can't? because it you do, and you have to assume it's right, whatever comes up. you have to assume it's correct. it's very difficult, you never lose the feeling of resistance to it. i mean, i've been analyzing every dream i can remember now for the last twenty one years and er i think i've got rather good at dream interpretation i must admit. erm, but even today er with every dream the same feeling comes and you just have to resolutely ignore it and say well, you know, that's what i thought. in other words, what you've gotta try and distinguish is what you're thinking. in free association what you think about your thoughts and what you think about your thoughts. as theresa says, we usually try and censor them, try and say no, you know, leave that out, erm, it's as if you had a kind of er censor sitting in your mind telling me, er telling you telling you er er, but it works with me too, erm what you can and cannot say. you know, as if erm, as if there were some censor present who, who, who wanted to make judgments. now, in analyzing dreams that is the single and in a way the only problem. but you can overcome that problem and assemble enough free associations. you can usually then begin to see some kind of crazy logic in them. if you let them lead you where they want to go, they lead back to this latent content and then you begin to recognize er the latent thoughts. now, as you said in your paper, the latent thoughts are often very very different from the, from the er manifest thoughts,th they're way away from them. i mean, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if, if you analyzed this dream you discovered it had nothing to do with being at school and nothing to do with taking exams. do you know what i mean? the, the, the, you know would, it's quite possible that the, that the manifest content i has completely misdirected your attention and the latent content is really something else. for example, and i'm not saying this is, this is so, but it's not unusual in that kind of dream if it's recurring in the present, to find that really it's about the present and not about the past. so it seems to be about school anxiety and exam anxieties and so, but those are very common kinds of dreams, but, but very often when you you find they're actually about the present, they're about some recurrent anxiety or conflict in the present which is masquerading as if it were in the past because your associations of what's going on are connected with the past er one way or another. i mean, for example, i mean i'm not saying this is an association but you might find in your dream, if you look to say i'm back at school, then your association would be but i am at school now, the london school of economics, do you see what i mean? th th that kind of thing can easily happen, so school now, i e l s e, is represented as the school you went to when you were a kid. i mean,th that's a typical kind of association, that, that it's a link, you can see the link is in the word, but the effect is to, is to misdirect your attention. manifestly you think you're, you're, you're thinking about one school, whereas in reality you're thinking about quite a different one. now i'm not saying that is the basis because only you could supply the, the, the free associations. while we're on this question, one of the few things that er theresa didn't say, although perhaps she might have said it when i wasn't, i don't think she did but one of the few things she didn't say is why freud disapproved of the typical kind of dream book you find in any book shop. er, the meaning of your dreams revealed, you know, you see this kind of, yeah, now why did he disapprove of that kind of analysis? what was wrong with that approach? that's right. that's the, that's the key point that and were making, that only you or only the dreamer can interpret their own dreams. so, it's no good er me looking up in some book theresa's dreams if i could decipher it like some kind of code in which every single thing in the laten in the manifest content represented something latent for what we're trying to then kind of decode as in a code book because er that's not valid, at least it's not valid in general terms. it's a good analogy in terms of theresa's private thoughts. she's got a private code book but the point is that only she knows how the symbols, how the manifest and latent relate to each other, because only she can make those associated links. it's, you can't in general lay down generalized associative links and say every time somebody dreams about erm an examination it represents anxiety about their future career or something. i mean, it might represent that, but it might not. it could easily stand for something else. if, for instance, the dream associated an exam with er with, with some peripheral aspect of taking examinations which erm had nothing to do with any kind of test. it's quite possible. right, now why is that bill? you're quite right. there is a ch lecture on dream symbols so why, despite this excellent point that j m hayley made, does he still mention symbols? yes, that's it. that's right, as, as, as theresa said at the beginning, one of the prime characteristics of dreams is this kind of visual erm symbolism and in the course of analyzing thousands of dreams of course which he did in his practice, freud found that very often certain fundamental things that people tend to dream about quite a lot tend to appear in lots of people's dreams with similar kinds of er representations, and among the most notorious and obvious of these were things related to sex. now, freud wasn't saying that every time you dream about an umbrella you're, you're dreaming some kind of sexual wish, erm, but what he's saying is that umbrellas and other things that can erm become erect or open out often do represent but you could conceivably have an umbrella dream in which the umbrella, through your private associations, stood for something completely different, it's quite, it's quite possible. so we're not saying that every time somebody dreams about an umbrella it means erm that,wh what he was saying is er that kind of visual symbolism often does stand for in this case erm the male genital, but it need not. it's just a kind of recurrent symbolic erm language and, of course, people develop symbols. i mean, for instance, in my dreams er cars have taken on a very distinct personal symbolism that has really nothing to do with what you might think, because of personal experiences of mine, and i now know that whenever i dream about cars it always always has this but that's because of something that happened to me and because of my personal erm kind of experiences, so cars have become a dream symbol. but erm, the, so although he, he, the point i'm making is although it was who says he mentioned symbolism, or became aware of it, it's er, it doesn't conflict with the point th that, that we were making earlier, that the only person who can interpret their dreams is the dreamer ultimately. there's no quick and easy way. susan, did you want to right, let's, let, let's pursue that for a minute. i mean, people sometimes you know, give the impression, oh erm, freud thought all dreams were about sex. is that true? no. why not? right, absolutely. well, in the first place you don't of course, because the, the manifest content may be totally innocent. it's only when you pursue the associations with the manifest content and ask yourself what does that make me think of, that you start to think of things that you then realize leads to a latent content, which may be sexual in, in, in nature, but why er, even if, as theresa rightly says, we d we have to say it's crude and misrepresentational for that all, all, all dreams are about sex. there's no doubt if you analyze a lot of dreams, that an awful lot of them are as a matter of fact. now why is it? yes. right, and there might be another reason as well. i mean,th that's kind of you're you're seeing it from above as it were, why they should be forced out of the manifest if there's some other reason? and here you might think of other kinds of dreams that are so-called typical dreams, like for instance erm, er, has anybody had this dream where you want to go to the bathroom but can't find it? has anybody had that kind of dream? right, now this is a typical dream, it, freud lists it, there is a chapter in the interpretation of dreams called typical dreams. how do you think he interpreted this dream? because it's a very common one. right, that's er, that's er, right,the the these are both the same kinds of dreams. er, to answer your question, really we need to remind ourselves what's, what according to freud is the function of dreams? what are dreams for? what's their ultimate purpose? theresa did mention it. yeah, yeah, right, to, to maintain the state of sleep. that's th th that was one of freud's fundamental findings. now, the kind of dream that and we are very thirsty, and you want to go to the bathroom or something, is a dream whi which is the result of a kind of compromise. on the one hand, says freud, there's a strong desire to go on sleeping, but on the other hand there's this stimulus, i'm terribly thirsty or you know i, i, i, i really do need to go to the bathroom pretty badly, and there's an inner conflict in your mind. one thing, you need to go to the bathroom or, or to get a drink, says wake up and go and do it, the other thing,th th the desire to go on sleeping, says you know, well don't wake now, i want to go on sleeping. so the dream becomes a symbolic expression of this conflict and what very often happens is the there's a kind of compromise in which you go off and look for the bathroom or the drink of water or whatever it is you want, but the dream keeps postponing you finding it, in order to lengthen the dream and the state of sleep, so you go on sleeping for a bit longer. another example of, of a similar thing er that you mentioned towards the end of your paper was where an external stimulus interferes with dreams. for example, er, i had last year in the in the class a student said that they missed an exam. the reason was they set their alarm, they were terribly conscientious about setting their alarm clock so they'd wake up in the morning to go to the exam, and er it was a very loud alarm clock so not the kind of thing you could sleep through, but come the morning of the exam the alarm went off and the student started to dream that they were out hearing church bells or something, you know they're walking around hearing all these church bells, thinking isn't it nice, you know, it's sunday morning, oh i could go on sleeping. so the very thing that was supposed to wake them up, the noise of the alarm bell, was turned in the dream into a wishful of now i can go on sleeping, okay there's a bell, but it's sunday morning, you know, the bells are ringing, the church bells are ringing, i can go on sleeping, so they went on sleeping and they were late for the exam. so, i mean, there's an example of where there was a conflict and obviously it wasn't just the desire to sleep. my guess is there was also a desire to avoid going to the exam. so there was a rather more, perhaps a deeper than usual, but that's how, that's how freud would interpret that kind of dream. do you think that's convincing? do you think that explains your, your water or bathroom search dreams? but you don't wet the bed? oh no, no well, yes, i mean that's what happens. with children, i mean, you sometimes find that children have that kind of dream, they do find a bathroom and then they do wake up in a wet bed. er, i don't think it's so common wi with, with adults who are supposed to have better control over these things, but it certainly sometimes happens with children. and in, and in that case, of course,th that illustrates the other prime finding of freud about dreams. dreams exist to safeguard sleep, but what's the ultimate, what was freud's ultimate finding about dream, the kind of essence of his dream theory? expressed in the, in every dream is what, says freud? right, expression of a wish, says katherine. erm, do you think that's convincing, katherine? right, right that's an anxiety dream. did you have that dream more than once, or just once? but it's still no. er, most people have that kind of anxiety dream. some people have them quite a lot. now, it's easy to see, if we're talking about the kind of dreams that reed was telling us about, erm, that there's a simple wish with these dreams and in the end you wake up and you go and gratify the wish in that case. okay. but erm, what about anxiety dreams like katherine's? surely this contradicts the freudian theory cos how could er a horrifying dream like that still, still makes her feel anxious? how could that possibly be the fulfilment of a wish? surely this contradicts freud's central finding, doesn't it? what d'ya think ? do you ever have anxiety dreams? yeah, so d do you think this is credible? how do you think freud would account for them, if he wanted to defend his theory? how, how could he explain such a dream as katherine's, do you think? anybody? well, in a, in a sense that's er that's, that's the answer. the, you reminded us of er another aspect of dreams, that, that, that one notices if you actually do a bit of dream interpretation yourself, is what called, what freud called day's residues. now a day's residue is some association which relates the manifest content usually to what happened to you that day, and often i they're very oft it's often that the day's residue is built into the manifest dream, so it's quite obvious, you had this dream because of something that happened to you on that day. very often day's residues are among the first associations th that will occur to you. however, if you pursue the associations and begin to delve into the latent content, what you often find is that those day's residues, which are specific to that day, as theresa was saying, relate to more general erm situations, or indeed to things that actually happened in the past which that particular aspect of that particular day might remind you of. so you trace the, the, the, in other words the day's residue becomes just part of the associations which leads back often to things which didn't necessarily happen today, or which may even have happened in the past. and, er, so the, so freud's theory doesn't necessarily require that, that any source of anxiety should be traced to today's events, what it what it does say is that very often today's events shape the manifest, and sometimes the latent, content of the dream quite a lot. however, his, his explanation for alex's and katherine's point about anxiety dreams would be that the, the anxiety dream is, is one in which dreams fail in their function. if we say, you see, that the function of the dream is to safeguard sleep, and to fulfil wishes, then it's clear that in the real world not all wishes are fulfillable and it may well be that, that the latent thoughts, in some cases, is so alarming and so disturbing, that they cannot be sufficiently disguised and will lead to a state of waking, and that waking proves of course that the dream has failed in its function of safeguarding sleep. in other words, an anxiety dream is a kind of aborted dream, a dream that attempted to disguise a er disturbing latent content but could not succeed in the end. so the anxiety breaks through and you wake up. i think theresa was first. mhm. yes, in that sense, in that sense, the unconscious thought was expressed but the, but the point was,i the anxiety as it were got the better of the dream, didn't it, if you woke up? because ideally if, if, if a dream was really gonna work it would disguise the anxiety under some reassuring manifest content that would stop you feeling anxious and therefore waking, wouldn't it? yes, this, this kind of thing happens to people who've been in traumatic situations, like erm er prisoner of war camps, severe accidents and stuff like that, and freud himself of course saw quite a lot of these cases after the first world war. er, does anybody know what his theory of these was? well, let me just quickly answer alex's point before i come back er to, to, to erm and jake. erm,fr if, if you look into these dreams, what very often happens is, or what people report, is that whilst they're experiencing the, the traumatic situation, whatever it may be, being in a prison camp or something, their dreams are often fairly straightforward, they're to do with simple wishful things like being rescued, escaping, getting . after they have been released then these anxiety dreams start. and wh what tends to happen is the dreams are, are, are repetitive, although they often vary in small details, and the idea is, or this was freud's, freud's idea, and basically it's the same as his explanation of anxiety dreams, that, that what is happening here is that the mind has got a very disturbing latent content that it can't forget. it's trying to forget it, and trying to turn it into a more reassuring manifest content, so it starts to dream about it, but the latent thoughts are so disturbing it never succeeds and consequently the whole dream work, this process of disguising the latent content, just doesn't get anywhere at all, except for a few minor details. and so the whole memory comes back and er the individual just cannot be rid of it. so in other words that kind of dream represents an extreme example of erm of an aborted dream, but the very fact that it's repetitive and you keep having them, freud would say, is, is a demonstration of the fundamental idea,th that the dream attempts to try and put the past right as it were, you try and dream about it, but you fail all the time. er, i think it was hayley first. yes, yes well, of course, sometimes anxiety dreams can be a fulfilment of, of wishes because people can enjoy anxiety. i mean, this is why hollywood you know can make a lot of money out of some pretty horrifying movie, the th the kind of thing i couldn't go to see er cos i get the willies, i can't bear that kind of thing, but some people enjoy being frightened don't they? i mean, being frightened er spooky kind of you know thing in a lot films can be exciting for some people. and some dreams, i'm not saying katherine's is, i'm sure it isn't, but, but some people, some people's anxiety dreams are of that kind. th they're being frightened because they enjoy being frightened and there's a kind of perverse wish fulfilment in that. and that, that certainly happens. jake, what were something interesting happened to me that i never really thought about, erm, but i used to get these dreams where i used to dream that i'd be either falling off a cliff or driving a car and getting into an accident and like or driving off a cliff. and i used to wake up like two feet off my bed, like i dunno my, my body what, you were levitating? i mean i would open my eyes and see myself like that, wake up and then i'd bounce off the bed and then i'd sit there bouncing and, and but i haven't had that in a long time and wh when i thought now a lot of times, if i think that i leave either the front door unlocked, my house unlocked or the garage door open i go and actually check that in the middle of the night. and i haven't had these dreams in a long time, and i used to never do anything like that. so now i always and so i, i'm thinking that it might be that, that i that erm maybe you know like i used to be anxious about something like that and i used to wake up and the dream used to happen, but now that i've double checked that i know for sure that, that i'm safe you know for the night it doesn't happen any more by cutting off possibility it certainly sounds like it, doesn't it? as if , if you've done that you somehow you feel that you've got no reason to be anxious any more. oh,that's right, a very famous book, yeah well, that, that, that reminds me of something that might cast some light on jake's dream. i don't know about these, this person you're thinking of but er a very common reaction, i certainly have this from time to time, it really does irritate my wife cos i usually wake her up, is you know, you're just going off to sleep and you suddenly kind of feel you're falling, does, does that happen? that's quite a common thing i think. i mean i kind of you know, you give a start and unfortunately if you're in bed with somebody else you tend to wake them up, because my wife never does that, she's just too good to be true. but erm, so now i'm blamed for waking her up. but erm, you know, there's a wonderful picture, i don't know if you've seen it, by salvador dali, called sleep, which is a kind of head-like figure, it's a figure which is mainly a head with a kind of sheet draped over it, supported on crutches, lots of crutches, and this kind of represents this, and the idea that if one of the crutches were to move, the figure would wake up. now erm my, my, there's a poss a possibility that the kind of dream you're reporting is one which is triggered by that kind of reaction, because i don't know whether theresa read about this, but in interpretation of dreams there's a famous example that was provided to freud by one of his friends of a similar thing. what happened was the man erm went to sleep and while he was asleep something in the room fell on his neck. i don't know how this happened, but er erm a piece of wood or something fell and hit him on the back of the neck and woke him up and he woke up from the vivid dream of being at the time of the french revolution, of being lead up the guillotine and having his head chopped off. and his point was you know, this was quite a long dream, you know,th i the manifest content, the whole argument of the dream, took some time er and his objection was, how could freud's theory explain this? well, erm, does anybody know how freud explained that dream? well, his theory was that this guy was a writer or something, a historian or somebody like that, and freud said it's quite likely that in the past he had had either dreams about a similar dream or conscious fantasies about how he would have felt if he'd been in the french revolution and what might have happened to him. he'd then possibly forgotten these dreams or fantasies and then when the stimulus of feeling something on the back of his neck happened to him whilst asleep, suddenly the fantasy came back, all as a piece as it were, and it occurred to me that your dream about driving off viaducts might be caused by being asleep, having one of these falling experiences, then relating it to previous thoughts you'd had, you know on the freeway or something, oh my god, how awful it would be if i, if i drove off that bend below, do you know what i mean? it's possible isn't it? it's a possibility that it's related to some existing thought you'd had. you know, how easy it would be drive off and, and kill yourself or something. is it necessary that you had to have had some kind of fantasy before yes. about the french revolution? why, why wasn't it enough that out of every experience that i mean like not much happens to the back of your neck like that, that's one thing that i'd even think about, i mean i'm not any kind of historian, but like, like anything like the back of the neck i would think of a guillotine also. right, yeah. but is it necessary that he should fantasize about that beforehand? well you see, what freud had to explain here was how he could have had such a long dream when the dreamer reported that he woke up more or less instantly from the stimulus of something hitting him on the back of the neck. now unless we think that dreams can unravel very fast in the mind, much faster, and there is some evidence that that's true actually, that dreams can in fact happen quicker than you could think of them in conscious time. nevertheless, i think freud's view was that er the erm, if it was a really long complicated dream,you were recalling a previous fantasy rather than er necessarily creating from scratch because of this particular stimulus. i dunno. has anybody ha ever had a dream like that? not very common i suppose. erm pizzas? giant pizzas all over the place you greedy girl. so comfortable really? and i had to make sure i didn't eat them because they were so comfortable. and the strange thing is my boyfriend was dreaming about pizzas at the same time. and he kept shouting out, feed me, feed me, so i woke up at one o'clock in the morning. but had, had anybody mentioned pizzas beforehand? or no i mean was this er a possibility that you ought to have a pizza no, we both like pizzas, but to dream about them at the same time, and he's screaming out in his sleep, get me a pizza yes, i think you were sharing your dreams. well, go to bed on a pizza and it keeps re-occurring you have a pizza problem. well, it's, it's eleven o'clock. we've gotta call it, call it a day now. theresa, we are deeply indebted to you. we will leave erm tracy with her pizza dreams erm, you can, you can carry on analyzing your dreams at your leisure. i'll be saying something about them in the lectures, not today but next week, and er now which reminds me, who is performing next week? let's er, jake is, right, okay. oh, and you is it? and then me. and then you. yeah. okay. thanks very much. you'll have to have another go in your dreams theresa. well now you, now you've had a class on it, you'll have to go back to it refreshed and try and crack it. i did this but it's not for a few weeks time for my presentation on freud, or oh i know, right, yeah, right. erm, what i wanted do you want to talk to me about that in the tutorial first or would that be ? that's two weeks time. i can if you want, it's just that i came up with a few things that didn't make sense, they were fairly contradictory things. i just wanted to know well look when are we having our next tutorial? do you want to do this in the tutorial? i mean sure. tomorrow is twelfth of november yeah, that's right, it is just under two weeks. i could do it then could you do it then? it will only take a few minutes, certainly. or do you want it cleared up beforehand? is it, is that waiting too long? no, that's fine it's not waiting too long? when's my presentation? it's not yet, is it? it's number seven, we're only on number three that's fine oh yeah, you've got quite a bit of time, number seven. yes, you're doing it on, is it number seven? yeah. no it's not, it's number eight. number eight. number eight on the twelfth of november, so you've got plenty of time. twelfth of november? mhm, oh no, it can't be the twelfth of november no, that's the tutorial, it must be much later than that. sorry, i'm reading the wrong dates here that's right, it can't be the twelfth, i must have meant the fourteenth. i mean it won't mean me redoing it or anything, it's just a few things that i wanted to yeah okay, i'll do it then. thank you. yeah, we'll do it then any suggestions on where to get the book book because now once again the dillons i'll be getting my plane ticket ready to go home and then i also wrote a cheque with this one, one book store out at er erm, i forget the name of it, but it's out at er finchley road, it's supposed to specialize in have they got it? no. erm i'll, oh dear copies either . the things is there's a small possibility it may be out of print cos there's a new edition in the pipeline. i wonder if they've let it get out of print? i will erm, i tell you what, i'll phone the publishers this morning and see if i can get them to, to er, i need to phone them anyway. i could probably get them to send me one or two copies. i could do with one or two. i may be able to get you one. okay, great. leave it with me. i will, i'll phone my publishers now and see what i can do i'll see you later on in class yeah come in. oh hi oliver, do come in. good morning publishers . er, good morning,cou could you put me through to please? oh, hello , it's christopher here. do you remember i phoned you a week or two ago about some books i wanted? now, they haven't come yet, so erm presumably they're in the pipeline are they ? or whatever we don't really have the time, people just say, oh it's charts. erm and i'm responsible really for the historical side of the business, not only the all for all the furnishings and erm that kind of thing and refurbishing the house, but also for its future as we hope a living history event in the fullness of time. we've at least two or three years to go before that happens. also for the audio tour and generally for making sure that everything is kept on an even keel historically and that people keep on the right lines. there is also a staff of er other people, the ones that you you already know michael who is is really responsible for the as it were welfare of volunteers and there's another er what four people aren't there. er er also who do i'm sure. no they er they do things like fund raising and and er er the office and there's obviously somebody who the posters and design work and guy fawkes and that sort of thing. now what i'd like to do today is to erm take you round the house in a moment or two, see what you think of it and really to treat this as something whereby you see if you want to come and help us. and we see whether we think we can tolerate you . erm that's putting it bluntly because erm obviously being a volunteer is a sort of two way thing, we couldn't run without volunteers, we're very grateful for the ones we've got but so it's clearly a matter of whether you decide and whether you like the way we like to run things or or not. and we've had people quite often in these sessions eventually have said, well no i don't i don't think i will. because er there's too much , because they didn't like the way things were run, something like that and on occasions we have had to say to people, we're sorry, we just don't think you're the right kind of person for us. so it it is a sort of selection process a sort of mutual selection process. and the first thing i have to say a about the way the the place runs, is that it doesn't run like an ordinary museum, nor does it run like and ordinary house. like for instance fairfax house or anything like that. they're guides and stewards are really partly kind of guards. now that doesn't really work here because we have a policy that we don't have notices, you may have noticed already, we don't have notices saying don't and we don't object to people sitting on the furniture, handling this and that, doing what they like. in fact we actually encourage them to do so. we don't say you can't take photographs because we actually like them to take photographs, we do reckon it's a little bit of publicity for us. and we have never apart from i think we've lost one spoon which was the since we started so er we don't leave valuable things around but it's an important consideration to think that our most valuable things are things it would take four large strong men to move i mean like like the heavy furniture. so so so i say that first because we have in the past had people who felt worried by this attitude, they felt you know that they really they were people who perhaps had a background in the national trust and who really felt that it was their job to say, oh no don't touch that. now in fact that's not what we like our stewards to do, what we like our stewards to do is actually to help people to enjoy themselves, to help people to erm to enjoy the house and to sit on things and and and actually say, no please sit down on that if you like to, it's perfectly alright, that's what it's for. erm also i mean and to help them with the audio tour, because the audio tour despite all our efforts to be clear about how it works, continually confuses people and they sort of, oh where am i, i thought i was in here. so you will eventually get the opportunity to take as mike has maybe already told you, get eventually get the opportunity to take the audio tour yourself, so you can see where things are. erm the audio tour er and just to say something about it, is in the process of being revised. there are two audio tours, there's the short one which simply says, this is here and that's there, that's that. and it's just two voices, quite sort of, one man's voice and one woman's voice. then there's what we call the long tour, which has got seven characters from the house's history on it. robert hardy, the actor, plays william alderman er and it's the tour is just about to be re-cut er so that judi dench can be introduced into it as lady . at the moment we have a tour which has somebody else playing lady but we've got judi dench now so that's that's that. and both these tours enable people to go round the house on their own. right that's something about the way things work, and as we go round i'll tell you you know, what the precise duties cos they are various of the er of the er the stewards are. and what are the rewards, well what we find and and i must say, i was really touched by it, particularly with some of our our stewards, they say that they really like they love the house and they feel it's their own. i mean we've always encouraged people to feel it was their own. erm we do try and be nice to them we do try and give them presents occasionally like little, you may have seen some of them wearing little lions head badges which er are part of the arms of william that we had made. we actually at long last, now the winter's nearly over, are having made for them some big heavy red cloaks for those who are standing on duty in the courtyard. er not to costume them you understand but simply because a cloak is something that can be worn by a man or a woman and can be worn over whatever you have on. and er it took us a long time to get the special material because as you will gather, we tend to do everything properly, so we had to have the a cloth specially woven er handwoven of course and especially dyed and for once we had it especially fooled in other words the nap was raised. but water powered er water powered erm wooden hammers in the museum textile industry so it's ever so accurate . erm been there before. i think it's probably sensible in a moment if we actually take the a walk round the house mm. er in the way that we would if we were visitors. but first of all erm i'll just say something, i'll say it inside cos it's a bit cold out, about the history, the background of the house. we're actually in a part of barley hall now accidentally except that this part has been so georgianized that we haven't incorporated into the medieval house it's used as an office. but the whole house was acquired by the york archaeological trust in nineteen eighty seven. at that time it was a kind of derelict brick structure, part of which er over there, the bit that's at right angles to where we are now, was in a was a plumber's showroom or had been and this part was actually derelict and had a demolition order on it. er it had been bought previous to that in nineteen eighty five by a local businessman who wanted to turn it into offices, but when he got his architect in, russell wright who's his architect . when he got his architect, the architect said, look what you have underneath all this brickwork is a complete shell of a medieval building. and when the businessman er realized he very generously sold it to the trust er i believe the same i don't know, i believe it was the same . and we began the long process of actually sort of causing it to be reborn. i think what we'll do is we'll go down to the courtyard and i can show you more erm how that was done. what we'll be doing at first then is just to take an overview of the house, you wouldn't necessarily get that on an ordinary tour. so shall we do that now?the courtyard and er . unless there are any questions you want to ask before we even start. ah no. no the questions probably come later don't they. .if you come and stand over here. so when the trust acquired this house it looked nothing like this at all, er it was all there was hardly any timber showing, the only timber showing was what you can actually see now is obviously old timber . all the walls were covered in brick here, this piece of the building was actually only at that time only two storeys high . again all covered in brick. this yard was just a kind of higgledy-piggledy yard with a with a a wall along there where you're standing and a few lean-tos . so no-one could have guessed really what was on underneath here. er it was known by archaeologists and the royal commission of ancient and historical monuments had done a survey, but it had only done a very brief survey, and they said this is part of something left of a medieval building here. they weren't really aware . mhm. so once the trust acquired the house it began to do a number of it began to do three things. it began gradually to peel off the brick skin and to find out what was underneath. often the timbers were no more than columns of sort of dampish dust because they hadn't been able to breathe in this kind of brick envelope. often they were missing altogether and there was just a kind of gap where the timbers were, a sort of hole in the brick. a kind of er reverse erm like a mould really. but as that was done, all the timbers were either photographs or their apertures were drawn or they were er sometimes they were even rubbed like a brass rubbing to see where they joins were. and also if they had a timber like that one there where they had obviously a joint in it, the position of the joint was marked . so that was done, the plans established, and then being an archaeological trust the excavation began to see what was under the hall. and that was done piece by piece as it was possible to do it. this alleyway was shut for a few months and we hello. hello. we took it back down to its medieval level. so in fact we dropped the alleyway in nineteen ninety one, that was the line of the alleyway, the horizontal line along along there. so in order to get back to the medieval level, we took it back down to there and we caused the to slope. those of you who know york will perhaps remember that you used to have to duck if you were any height at all to get underneath there, well you don't now. it's not because you've got any shorter, but we've dropped the whole level . so excavation was done i i'll keep this short because it's cold out here, you see why we need the cloaks. mm. . excavation was done and then also the documentary we have was continued. in other words, who owned it, why, when was it built and so on. oh and the fourth thing that happened is the timbers, core samples were taken out of the timbers and they were sent for erm dendrochronology. tree ring dating. . well that came back, everyone's hearts in their mouths,. erm that said that this part of all ten samples came out the same, ten tree ring dating samples and said the timbers er of which that had been built, had been felled in the spring of thirteen sixty. and they said may which we thought was it a bit really but they said it had the the spring wood but not the summer wood on it. so in the spring of thirteen sixty, and they said that this was much more complicated, most of the timbers dated from about fourteen fifty although there was one that dated from twelve eighty nine and clearly was renewed and one of the roof timbers was about fifteen twenty, perhaps a repair. but by and large, fourteen fifty. so thirteen sixty, fourteen fifty. by that time i had already established because i did the documentary stuff, i'd already established the ownership of the house and the house began life as the town house of a monastery called priory. er belonging to the augustinian black canons near wakefield. and they began it in thirteen sixty, the time when york was just beginning to become er the most of importance as the second city of medieval england. they built it as their headquarters of york. not as a church, people have got the wrong idea, we sometimes get these tour guides going round saying, oh was there a monastery here? no there was never anything like that. it was simply their headquarters where they came to trade , where they came to er perhaps attend law courts but particularly where the prior of came when he came to do services at the minster because he was a canon of york as well as being canon or the parish of bramham which gave him a seat in the cathedral. and so he got space to build a house and they began it began this part in thirteen sixty although it's clear that there was an earlier house here, perhaps built at the time when they first got the back in the eleven seventies. but nothing of that survives at all. so thirteen sixty they began that. and and nearly a hundred years later, ninety years later, this was begun here. there was certainly a third wing which is marked by that there mm. which is er actually exactly the same height of gable as the gable on this side. and we think probably it was a parallel wing, probably also of thirteen sixty. . here briefly, because we'll see them on the inside, you've got the main bed-chambers above . here you've got the hall, you've got the pantry . in that wing, possibly more lodgings, possibly some stabling, possibly a little oratory or chapel since they were canons. l long after they built this however, they let the whole house out. they leased the whole house out to a man called william . partly because they themselves were running running short of money er they they had a er lost a lot of lawsuits and they'd spent a lot of money rebuilding their abbey church their priory church over at . and partly because york was going down the plughole a bit in the fourteen fifties as well. and so they decided they didn't want their house any more and they would lease it to citizen. they leased it to a man called william who was a goldsmith. this man, chamberlain, sheriff, lord mayor of york, member of parliament for the city, er master of the king's mint, an important man, a local man, come up in the world quite a lot cos his grandfather had just been an apothecary living on the corner of er grape lane going up and up and up. his own son, william's son, who was called erm moved out into the country, married an heiress and became a gentleman with a coat of arms . rise and you got richer and richer and richer, then you became a gentleman. and that er that's what happened to the 's and they're still about actually. we still hear from some of them. they've gone down in the world again a bit. still around. erm so that is and what we're doing is to try and recreate the appearance of the house as it was not in the time when the canons had it, but when william had it because we know a lot about him and his family and also we know more about the furnishings of that period. and what we shall eventually do is to turn it back, when we've finished furnishing it, we'll put the people back in again. have it as a working medieval household. but that's a long way off. mhm. but at least two years because it would take us that time to furnish the house. let's not get any colder, we'll go and go in. as you'll see one of the jobs that the volunteers do is to stand here . it is un unusually quiet even even for us. by the shop i think. aren't you cold? not really. my feet are cold. we've got six meetings and today so oh heavens. yeah. new volunteers. this is the shop as is self evident and one of the i said there were some benefits erm the stewards do get a discount in the shop. yes they do yeah. the point about the shop is that erm it sells things on a medieval theme and more specifically it has we have this undertaking that if you see it in the house, you can buy it in the shop. er a lot of the things are made specially for us, for instance these spoons. which are based on an example one of the only two example of york made medieval pewter in yorkshire museums. so we shall use this at our great banquet which i'll tell you about in a moment when we go round, which is our next event. so goods with a medieval theme, some of them very special like this czech bohemian glass which is we're the only stockists in the country, it is very expensive but it is very lovely and each piece is handmade. erm so you do get a discount on that. but if you were a visitor, you would start your tour here. cos you would come and you would buy the ticket from linda who would give who would give you a or from if he was here. . and you would you would take your ticket then and that would be your entrance ticket. so this is where you would start off. do come back anyway here and have a look round at some of the other things, but that's the point of the shop, to sell things with a medieval theme. mostly things connected with the house although we do again another thing, we've taken to selling these eastern european . direct they come directly from . and also because we're very keen on textiles, these special scarves volunteer's wearing which are these herringbone vegetable dyed scarves. erm anyway, that's where you start your tour, and you get your ticket and you sort of wave it round here. see you later. thanks. see you later. you wave it round here it's a good day isn't it apart from being cold. it is. . . now this is where you come in erm and this is where we've we've done something which er we think is quite clever, this here is the back facade of barley hall and when we got it it was not medieval at all, there was no timber framing left, it was just this this er brick here, so we didn't want to fake it up to look medieval on the outside. we thought that would be not at all the thing to do, a bit too disneyland. on the other hand we did want to keep it medieval looking on the inside, so what we did was we installed these yorkshire sliding casement but on the inside as you can see at the top window, we put panel window. so once you're inside you're in a medieval environment. all your outside is not too intrusive. er eventually we hope to have a little victorian style garden here cos this is a bit bare and uninviting. but at the moment we haven't got any money so we can't do that. so you brandish your tickets and you come in to here. hello, these are the new morning. new the new intake? new intake. are they new erm ear earphones? they are charles . do they go with the new we're they gonna go with the new sound system. yeah. oh good good. . is elsie one of our most valued volunteers and part time cleaner . erm so you'd come in here and you would be asked well you would be asked what would they be asked whether they well first they want to know you know, which wh we've got a new system haven't we mhm. put down for the you know for fire precautions and things . mhm. so do they go down as a new intake. search me i don't know. oh five, six, seven, eight. yeah. so erm well first you you welcome them and then say, erm you know, how much time have they got because we offer two tours. one takes twenty minutes which is dr is taking them round and telling them about the hall. and the other one takes seventy minutes or longer if they wish to examine things. and then when they've decided which you'll have erm the slip from the shop mm. and you put long or short tour and then the numbers right. on the cassettes down. and erm usually if there's space you ask them to sit just to listen to the introduction and then move on. and they go around er and you warn them about the erm the steep steps into the rooms because the oak is quite deep. and if if they have children, to take them up on the wall side of the stairs because you know . and just wish them good . and give them a guide book as well . well i think yes you yes that's right. because in here y they have you'd better have one of these actually you'd better yes. each have one of these. thank you. erm just so that you can er take it away and have a look at it later on. do the tours cost the same for each yes they do. yes yes entrance and er no it's up to them whether they're just visiting mm. or whether they're really are interested. occasionally you'll get people who don't want to take at all. that's true you don't have to. but they don't really get much out of it i suspect if they don't. erm it's usually sort of teachers and people who just like to see erm ahead for the school class to bring them later. but in that case you just take a piece of new paper and put the down and put it on the clip. so when when they bring the cassettes back i find it easier because you can get in quite a rush at times and you can't keep up with . if you put the cassettes on there although we should be having a new system but still they seen checking up don't they dr . yeah. well so then yeah yeah mm. it it it's not that complicated. no it's it's just getting the rhythm of doing it really . but sometimes it gets quite busy and it's saturday but that was a result of that radio programme, we had eighty seven people time of year did they? oh good . yes yes. and they'd all took the long tours you know they really were interested we've a new sound system coming and that's going to be mounted behind the there's a there's a great hole behind there you know which is actually the size of the range of one of the medieval kitchens. i say one of the medieval kitchens cos the kitchen seems to move about a bit er at different times. but this is the room eventually we're going to use i mean not for a long time yet, as a working medieval kitchen. working when we've got the household working. but at the moment we need it desperately for what it is which is a kind of entrance and p place where people can sit and and begin their tour. the idea of the tour which you can take yourselves . the idea of the tour is so that they can actually er listen to it, but they can turn it off whenever they want and they can use their guide book to see what is in each room and if you look at the guidebook as we go round, you will find that that the things are illustrated, you know the pot . and this is erm this is a pot that we had made after much iron? no it's bronze which is even more difficult. er it is rather heavy but you're welcome to carry it. it's a it's a bronze pot, a bronze cooking pot. er a cast copy of one in the yorkshire museum again. erm they're awfully difficult to cast because the art of bronze founding on that level is at least as far as i can see, almost died out, i'm having terrible i've terrible trouble with getting bronze cast. that's just an example of one of the things we've had made and that particular was sponsored as many of our pieces are. that was sponsored by british sugar . that cost nine hundred pounds to make but that's because it was the original . if we can ever persuade them to make any more there should they they should be cheaper. but so newly made? oh well yes because that's original. no no and we even if we were offered them we wouldn't take them because the logic of the thing is that what we're trying to show is a medieval house as it looked when it was nearly new. mhm. so even if somebody were to offer us a piece which they wouldn't i'm sure, a piece of old medieval furniture, we wouldn't take it. that being the first reason, the second reason is because it would put an intolerable burden of security on us. mm. now if somebody steals that it's an awful nuisance but that's all it is. erm and in fact more that and all our more valuable pieces are marked because they are so close to the original that er you have to mark them mm. for the sake of the museums otherwise they would be t probably passed off as the real thing. you could pass that off as the real thing. cos it's so like the original and oh you can't really test er metal for date, well not without a lot of problems anyway. now we don't have any new things, i should have thank you for asking the question because we're trying to give the impression of a medieval house the what's special about this is that it's a medieval house as it looked when it was new. since we had to renew so much of the timber, we thought we would turn that to good account, rather than trying to we don't want it to look as if it's five hundred years old. so one of the things that suppliers are told is they must on no account stress or age or mess about with any furnishings. it's gets distressed quick enough doesn't it on its own. yeah. erm so i mean this is this is never distressed but it's beginning to look a bit ancient now. so as they go round they get they look at their guidebooks, they're told all the are. erm . and er if they're on the short tour there's just a straight you know, says this is the kitchen and this would be this that and the other. if they're on the long tour at this point, the commentator is pushed aside by the man playing the part of the cook. . so they go from here into the two little rooms where food is prepared. this is generally the food preparation area of the house, this is a bit further on, this is the buttery. come in if you want to. this is the the buttery where which is nothing to do with butter but it's where erm the drink for the house was kept in barrels or butts like these. now the smell you can smell is new oak actually. these are new oak barrels made for us by theakstons er the these two are full of water because otherwise they'll dry out and that will happen to them. in other words the rings will come off . oh yes. mm. that one is deliberately being allowed to dry out because it's got to be re-coopered cos it never worked properly. er this is a long sort of type of er barrel used for probably importing wine. these are more likely barrels for either water or perhaps wine or or or or ale although ale is different from beer cos it doesn't have any hops in. ale was not often kept in barrels cos it didn't keep long enough to want to to have enough of it. mm. so these have been made for us by theakstons, they're made of new oak with er instead of metal metal was used . they're bound in wood aren't they? mm. metals was used for barrels but only for ones that were being taken a long way away like wine barrels that were being taken to or from gascony. they were much more expensive they were called barrels ferris or barrels with iron on. mm. these are made of er hazel, stripped, bound with willow. we have actually had a sort of barrel expert er who told us about this. and then the bucket too which has been kept full of water to keep it from expanding and leaking which otherwise it would do. er is is done in the same way. so we haven't yet put the tiles on the floor because again we can't afford to. erm er this area was tiled like the great hall in a rather plain way and we shall tile that again. the kind of these are the kind of things that we're using for drink. these are salt glazed stoneware. erm of a type replicas of a type made in germany and i imported here in very large numbers. salt glazed stoneware. that is erm you chuck in rock salt when the k kiln is very very hot and then run like blazes cos it sends up hydrochloric acid. erm so that's salt glazed stoneware. erm these are quite posh drinking cups called , funnel necked jugs. and they were the originals of these were made in a place called in germany. and these'll be for the banquet and i'll explain the banquet later on as we go on. but this is the nothing like finished but quite soon, in the next couple of weeks, we shall be putting some windows in here with shutters. and the windows we shall put in here are the type of windows called a fenestral which are made of linen and i'll show you one of those later on rather than explain it now. so we're putting a pair of fenestrals in here. this is the buttery and the next room to it is the pantry. which is pretty bare . so the pantry is er as its name suggests, the pantry is actually breadroom the place where the pain is kept, the the the dry goods more than the wet goods. so if you can imagine the food being cooked in there and if you like, plated up in here and while the butler, the man who works in the butlery or the buttery does the drink, the pantler, the man who looks after the bread is plating the food out there. now originally he would have given it to the servers who would have taken it out here. follow you? yes you can follow me. he would have taken it out here through the oh i see. screen door. straight into there. yes straight into there. now that's what he originally would have done, you see he would have taken it out of here straight into the hall. now he he can't do that now because there's a public alleyway through, and the public alleyway has been here at least since sixteen ninety one. if you just step outside for a minute. as we can see rather graphically here, the difference in if you stand back against that wall if you would very kindly, erm you see here the difference in level between nineteen ninety mm. that's the level at which you would have been walking along this alleyway in nineteen ninety and about fourteen sixty. that's how much was actually excavated away. the so this alleyway has been here since at least sixteen ninety, probably rather earlier when the house began to go down the drain as it were, down the plughole. and got split up into different little workshops and dwellings. we'll go back inside anyway when these gentlemen have gone past and . thank you. so the public don't do that but i just thought i'd like to show you how how . so we're working on the buttery and pantry, particularly the buttery. every now and again, we run up against what you might call a medieval . erm because of having to do everything as much as we can the medieval way, if we were ordinary people and we said we wanted to tile we'd say, oh well we'll go out and buy some tiles. but we can't do that because we have to make our tiles in the way that's most . the reason being that when tiles are made, they're made with clay in a big frame and then they're cut with a thing like piano wire. but they have to be dried in sunlight before they can be fired. if you don't, the damp comes through later on underneath the glaze, so we've got to wait till the spring. so there's a medieval problem . well and that's we were delayed a whole month in tidying the whole because it was such a rotten wet summer, we couldn't get the tiles . tell me . no the kind of candles we have in here . tallow candles yes. which are much cheaper than the beeswax ones being used in the . cos you seem to get them from like all over. well what was here basically. what what we know to have been here. yeah. this is the which is actually much further on in its decoration that most of the rooms, in fact all it really needs is some cushions and the window glass here. this is the , the room where we think probably the owners of the house sort of did their business and met their private customers. erm most of the furniture we choose either because we know it from inventories and lists to have been the kind of thing that was in middle class households in york, or in some cases like this, where we know the 's have actually owned something like this. william was left a red chest of flanders by his grandmother who was called alice in fourteen twenty nine. what's it made of? oak. erm it's a very funny colour. well you see most medieval furniture of this type was painted. was it? it was usual to paint furniture. mm. and we know that he was left this red chest of flanders so we sought for a flanders chest, that's a chest probably actually made in north germany but imported through flanders and we found a yorkshire example in a place called near ripon. and we copied it mm. not only as to its erm very elaborate tracery patterns and and mythical beasts on it like that, around here, but also as to its colour cos although the original we found was actually blackened, when one took when i took a very powerful torch to it, you could actually see the colour in the crevices still, this red colour. and so we took a piece off and had it analysed, we have a little laboratory which we use to analyse things like that, and it turned out to be what we expected, the most common colour of medieval furniture was red. you did it by putting a a a erm a layer of animal skin glue which is made from boiling down old sheepskins and parchment, that's the size, that seals the wood. and then us the the pigment is basically a a red ochre. mm. so erm there it is, the red chest as it's known. erm everything is done in the most accurate way we can. so we don't use mild steel, we use wrought iron. all the wood is this nearly all the wood is oak cos most medieval furniture is oak. this however is not oak it's sit on it somebody. this is what's call was called in york a throwen chair and don't mistake that for thrown, er it's a throwen or c or or turned chair. cos the local turners wood turners were known as throwers. er cos they threw things rather like throwing a pot. and that's a throwen chair of around about fourteen fifty, designed with a short seat so that you lean forward and it's a writing chair basically. you see . it's it's not a it's not a comfortable chair, it's a writing chair. and that is copied from a picture of one that survives. er a very accurate one which we took all the proportions from the picture. this it's very very wide isn't it. yes it is well we just copied it exactly. it's actually not uncomfortable to sit in when you get used to it. i mean were people sitting with robes on or something? people were sitting the main point of the chair is is to enable you to to write and it's actually very satisfactory to write in, it's just the right height. er if you're writing . mm. erm this is taken again from medieval pictures and one of the materials we use in this house quite a lot which is is horn. so this is these ink horns actually are ink horns. equally these are horn books, do pick them up and wander about with them. they were the earliest type of school text book erm which came in in about fourteen fifty, er to teach your a b c which you just copied and copied and copied until you got it right. make your own ink? er we do make our own ink, we haven't got any at the moment. erm and this is the your prayers your your latin pater noster. erm this table is actually a folding table of a type which very often appears in flemish and german pictures. we don't know if any in england that survive although they are described as a folding table of flanders or a tab tabula plicata which means a a table that folds. and it folds by means of taking out these two little little pegs there you see. i'm not going to do it cos it's full of of jugs and then it tips back on itself on to the on to the flat side . erm it's only decorated on the front cos it when it folds it folds flat along the back edge . mhm. and it's got these animal feet. if you you when you if you're interested, go and have a look at your pictures by hieronymus bosch, interiors by people like hieronymus bosch and er roger van der and people like that and you'll find this table keeps well a table like this keeps appearing. sometimes sixteen sides at the top. why did they have a folding table for travelling or do to make more room i mean the furniture was much less monumental than ours is if you see what i mean. it was this room may think is sparse but is almost over furnished by medieval standards. they didn't tend to have a lot of furniture. and these because you always wanted to be able to adapt rooms for different purposes and this folded back against the wall. that's the it needs cushions. the cushions are being made . it's very comfortable. well it won't be if you sat there for too long. no but it that if that's an old fashioned design, i mean we designed that as being something that his granny might have had. so sort of late fourteenth century. that's actually the very latest thing in in in primitive carving on here. which is in fact the new newest thing in fourteen eighty . they they just as as a storage space. but er there's a footboard there. mm. looking up at the roof, the roof of the whole of this hall range and indeed of the other part is is done in the same way. it's the tiles are copies of ones found in the foundations and they're hung on hand split oak lathes. these things are lathes. they're split erm along the line of the grain because otherwise being erm they they incline to warp a bit. if if you use if you split wood along a natural grain, it moves it warps far less. mm. and i'll talk about that a bit more. and then they're hung on by pegs and then touched underneath with mortar to stop them lifting off, that grey sort of er it's to stop them lifting off. and it's been a jolly good roof i will say, it's not let there's never been no problems with it in even in this bad weather we've had these last few years. it's a very good roof. are the pegs attached to the tiles so they hang on the the lathes ? yes the pegs the pegs go through the tiles so the tiles are are made with little square hole. tiles were the ro making the tiles was a major operation because erm when they first tried to make the tiles they tried they dug a hole big hole at rawcliffe and they they tried to make forty thousand tiles, line them all up in the pit and they brought something like forty tonnes of dry wood chippings from the erm saw mills in er forest but they couldn't quite get it hot enough so the whole lot had to be thrown away do again. so erm anyway they they they did do it in the end. mm. erm this is another piece of erm import. because there was a tremendous trade between york and the low countries and between york and low and and north germany. and this what came in in large quantities to fashionable houses like this were erm what was called . flemish brassware. and this is actually from bruges, i actually went to bruges to get it er and this is a copy of something which er a direct cast of something which is still in bruges. in er oh where is it, in a place called er , the pottery in the church museum. and er it's really elaborate compared with the simplicity of the furniture isn't it. mm. well yes i mean it we d d d it's slightly different, they have a slightly different view of things and on what they use a lot more than we do is wall textiles. mm. i'm particularly the textiles i suppose i'm i'm quite keen on keenest on because i think we're far ahead of everybody else with textiles. other medieval houses that are replicated medieval houses just haven't got on to the textiles in the way that we have. these textiles to be brief are the type called in the inventories,say. s a y. the type of cloth is say. it's a light but closely woven cloth and the weave is based no medieval cloth hangings survive. tapestries do, cloth hangings don't. erm the ta the the weave is based on the discovery of a seal, an seal,were the royal officials who were responsible for the quality of exported cloth. and some of these were found in bristol harbour er and the pattern of the cloths was pressed in to the lead so we were able to put a microscope to that and see how it should be woven. they're woven as you see on thirty six inch wide hand-looms. just with a without a flying shuttle, passing the shuttle back and forth. they're dyed also naturally in the medieval way with red for the madder and then welled to give the yellow as the basis of digris and then a woad an indigo from woad erm slightly cheating there because we couldn't have enough woad, we have to use import the actual substance. so you dye it yellow and then you dye it blue and it goes that green. we are planting four acres of woad in order to have a blue bed for next year cos there isn't enough woad is is is in rather short supply so we have to grow our own. so these are hangings erm hung on tenterhooks directly hammered straight into the wall. no rails or anything like that. the tenterhooks that are hooks used for stretching or tentering the cloth in the process of making it. and you just hammer them the poor old cloth workers they've got used to me now, they had an awful fit at the time, you can't do that. i said yes i can,stick it straight on. the idea being that if you wanted to move the cloth which we will be doing for the banquet, you just lift it straight off there, hammer some more tenterhooks in somewhere else and put it on there as well. erm even tapestries like the devonshire hunting tapestry which you may have seen at the v and a. er the tops look as if they're been eaten by mice because they're been so often snagged onto tenterhooks and moved and moved round and onto other tenterhooks, they just don't seem to have had the same view of this kind of thing as we do. that's what they were for, you moved them around. if you wanted to move them, you moved them. i'm going to i'm going to accelerate now cos i see i'm going on too long. this is the great hall and i could spend easily as long as i've already spent on on this hall but i won't. it's wonderful. this is the great hall which is which is although it looks finished is actually by no means finished, i was just explaining to mike we still need a go there, we still need a table there, we need all the windows to be done and we need three thousand pounds for that window. not so high because of the glass but because it's got to have double folding shutters. and because there isn't enough room for a half shutter you see, it's only that wide, it wouldn't cover the window. so we're having to have shutters with a central hinge and we're fortunate again in york we've got a wonderful erm prototype, only a few hundred yards away in the minster. er i don't know whether any of you have ever been into the little private chapel, st william's chapel which is reserved for private prayer and early morning service. however if you go in there and there's no one to disturb, i always look and make sure there isn't anyone first, and look at all the wall cupboards, the wall cupboards the wood has been cleaned, actually are about the largest collection of late medieval ironwork in england. because all their hinges and c all their hinges and straps are all original and they all date from about fourteen ten. so we have a if we ever want any ironwork we just have to go and say, oh well we'll have one of those please. to the blacksmith. erm as i told you before, the original er conformation of the house was that that the cooked food was brought through that door through the screened door and into here as you see. but this passageway was cut through in the seventeenth century if not earlier. so we wondered whether there was a wall here at all of any kind. the showed there was absolutely nothing here. there was just an open space. all there was probably was a hanging and you see there are the actual stubs of the tenterhooks are still visible . and we haven't tenterhooked this wall because we wanted to be able to open and shut this curtain so we've adopted another medieval style taken from erm er medieval manuscripts. the rail is made of wrought iron and the rings are made of cast bronze. we're fortunate in having an excellent blacksmith called john who's also the minster's blacksmith, who manages all our ironwork very cheaply we have to d he's so busy we have to just get it when we can. roof you see, if you look right up there above this this central beam, you can see the smoke hole. mm. now this entire wall is exactly as it was in about fourteen fifty when it was built. the reason why that's been preserved is that that part of the wall was never bricked in. so that it was always able to breathe. the side walls were bricked in in a brick skin, they couldn't breathe and we've had to replace as you saw outside, virtually all the timber. the er original timber here which is the dias beam and it points up something very o odd happened in this building. if they had been working logically, they would have built the new on to the old stopping here. but for some reason they didn't, for some reason i don't know, for some reason they sort of burrowed into the of the earlier range, causing a couple of hundred years later in the early seventeenth century,absolute disaster because the whole of that range began to settle down. and they took a whole level off, they've dropped it by a storey. we've put it back up to the storey but we've . so why they did it well why they did it is clear er to make slightly bigger hall, but why they took the risk they did is not so clear. i mean you can imagine somebody saying, well it'll last me out, i'm not bothered. . this is where the posh chaps sat. by the big window,and with especially grand table which we shall paint incidentally paint the paint the er the carving there . settling down because wood keeps moving for some time . even when as we've done here we've got which is timber which is cut like the slices of a cake from the outer rim to the centre. instead of being sawn off in strips like they do , actually carved it from the outside to the centre. quarter which is very distinctive when you get to recognize it because it just looks different actually moves much less. what moves much less still is riven timber. and these legs on these side tables is riven . in other words instead of being sawn, what you do is you take the log and you s look at it very hard to see where the natural erm faults along the wood are, going out from the centre. and then you put an axe in there to make a space you put a . and then thump it with a huge mallet and it splits along the natural lines of the grain. and that's called riving or cleaving. and that's the strongest way of all of making timbers and looking at medieval pictures and the few medieval survivors, that's the way it was done. because these they didn't want your table legs to go wandering about. because it would make the table bend. and these are done very well. these are made by a gentleman called adrian er erm who worked on the house as a as a labourer er but was so taken with it all he took to becoming a medieval furniture maker, has been ever since. he's coming tonight to stay, to bring the benches which are gonna go on the outside here. er the gentleman coming from scotland on saturday is bringing me all the table linen and we're table linen for . including these tremendously long towels which are er one and a half times the length of the table because they have to go over everybody's lap as a napkin kind of communal napkin. mhm. . so people would be sitting round four corners of this, they had to have a napkin over all their laps which they did. and all this is being done because on the twelfth of february, we're having here a sort of super duper accurate medieval banquet. er accurate in the sense that there'll be no wenches and no rugby songs and no no leg of chicken. what there will be and nor will on on the other hand, nor will there be any forks. everyone is going to be given er or lent er one of these er eating knives which we had specially made. and we'll give them a fork and knife and i won't go into it in great detail but everything is going to be the six courses will be entirely accurately served on bread plates over on pewter trenchers. but i mustn't go into that now. but er that's our next excitement after the recent television and radio thing . finally these are hangings, read and green perhaps the most popular colours in york. in seventy percent of cases where colour is mentioned, it's red and green. red and green say on the bench and bench covers called bankers have been made for these as well they would be covered as well. er that's red say there and these are painted cloths which were very popular in york for those who couldn't afford tapestries which were then as now, very expensive. they're linen painted with proper er ground pigments. the pattern is er not the white rose of york but the rose of the incarnation or the rose of the virgin mary, rosa mundi. you see the iesus hominis i h s. and then round that maria so christ in the virgin womb and then iesus round the outside. mm. and this is taken from belonging to the john and you can see it originally in the york minster library. john was a friend of william so we thought that would be quite appropriate. whenever we can we try and do stuff that is as close as possible to this house. we've amused ourselves a little bit by putting william 's initials on there and the arms of his wife who was called joan . she was a bit grander than him, she had a family coat of arms with three . she came from . as er a little little erm er complement to the people who paid for all this, the london glassworkers' company, we put their arms on there. we thought it more appropriate than saying, sponsored by so we put their arms . so these are the side tables for high table, the hearth, central hearth, central fire place, waiting to get the fire dogs for it. smoke went out there. the original beam, black and that beam across there is the original beam which is blackened by all the smoke. right, the arch braces of course had to be put in because they were if you look at it you'll see that they were actually sawn off. the arch braces were sawn off. because when we took over this room it had actually two extra floors in, one where you see the joists and one higher up. so . and we took those floors out cos they were recent and and we put these arch braces back in again using the pattern that . but this hall is not finished yet, the hearth itself is a real medieval hearth recycled from . we er was was was there an upper floor. no. you say there are holes in the timbers no no no i was saying that there was but that had been put in quite recently . oh yes. i see. mm. erm the hearth, the hall with the original floor is still preserved about nine inches down underneath a layer of three inches of sand to preserve it. what we found here was the floor with the grout marks of where the tiles had been. so that we knew what pattern the tiles had been in. and in the corner there, where there in fact had been something very heavy, the tiles had not been removed but left. so that we had a few tiles that we knew what their pattern and date was. and john our potter was able to . so we've reproduced the pattern that we think was here. the hearth was still here. the hearth had been very badly damaged in georgian times and somebody had just dug a pit straight through the middle of it, perhaps for drainage. erm well i mean they didn't know it was there you see. mm yeah. so what we've done we thought we're gonna have to replicate that hearth . and then the erm the excavating department discovered a h a hearth of the right date at rawcliffe on the er northern edge of er the city by the ring road. and so since that was going to be demolished and built over by a a housing estate anyway, we ripped it out and put it back down here. well we ripped up bits of it and re refurbished it. so it's a sort of interesting rather surreal object sort of recycled medieval hearth on the site of the other one. this as far as we know which is reproduced from the original, was for some sort of a fender. we don't know why it was this little sort of dip, that reproduces you know, the configuration of it but why it was there, we don't know, we thought we better put it back since it was there. yeah. would they sleep round ? no no not in a house like this. no this is too grand for that sort of thing. erm i i think the only time that people might have slept in here is if you had a visitor who had a lot of servants and there was simply nowhere else to put them. but no, the hall by this time was really more a . and and not really even a living room for the owners cos they were in the bed chamber. mm. i i'm i say you must excuse me going on at such a pace but i've got a i've got another meeting quite shortly and b you've got some little mo i think m michael's looking to take over. just go on through here. these are the store rooms underneath the bed chambers. the rooms, erm we've tried to this has been a bit tied up since the broadcast, we've tried to have it fairly cluttery so that kids for instance if they're not used to sheep, can come and come and have a sniff of of of er you know . they can d they can do that used to sheep . they can they can if they want to take some wool away they can. erm this is like a new sweater. and they can look at the horn and they can look at these things and they can look this is weld which is the herb that's used to produce the green the yellow of the green. it produces a a a chemical called . and this is grown grows round york very very commonly on building sites and things like that. this comes from copmanthorpe. . this is you know, what we're gonna be concentrating on next. this awful and we'd actually got the first window here which is which is . now then, this is a fenestral. and it in the summer which i know it isn't the summer, in the summer we just take these well we will cos we haven't had any for the summer we just takes these panes out and just open them like that in the summer. or we can if we like we can close the shutter at night at summer nights, but in the winter if we want to have some light, we open the shutter and put the fenestral back again, either way round it doesn't really matter. these pegs in. is it is it waxed. well it's not i'll tell you in a moment. it's linen i think we'll have it the other way round actually . it's linen and what you do is first of all you dip it in a solution of alum. i'm not quite sure why. er and then you wash it over with a hot solution of three parts clarified sheep's tallow four parts clarified sheep's tallow, five parts rosin. and this is all we've done is to take a medieval recipe. how to make a fenestral and we've just done that and it works. it keeps the rain out, it lets a certain amount of light in and it's dirt cheap . erm obviously not used to any ground rooms at all. i think the alum actually was so because this recipe enabled you to paint them with flowers if you wanted to. right. we might even try and do that. so eventually all the windows will be done like this with with shutters and we can get rid of that wretched plastic but it's all quite expensive. these kind of windows are very cheap, in fact this one i think cost about two hundred and fifty pounds altogether, but when you're doing big er double folding shutters and glass windows and things like that, then you're into the thousands. i mean we're doing it because they're cheap. so that's the first one. and no one else i think has got any fenestrals. er but they do seem to have been quite common in york in in in less grand rooms. they were follow the tour round.. this is the sort of the bedrooms, the chambers. this call the lesser chamber because to distinguish it from the greater chamber. and er there's another little room above there where if you move those boards there, that is a kind of trap-door. perhaps for a servant. accessible only by a ladder. this is a minor bedroom, erm but it's got quite a lot of nice original timbering in it. to say that i wouldn't care if there wasn't any original timbering in the place, it's not really what i'm interested in. and trying to recreate what it would have looked like. however there's nice light this morning to see the marks of the pitsaw across that beam, the big two man pitsaw. you know what a pitsaw is, you dig a hole and one man gets down the bottom, the other one comes up. and also the marks of the little side axe used for trimming off the sides. and you see all the beams are chamfered, not so much for decoration but because they seem to have done that according to latest research, done that to take the bark off because it was the bark where the parasites tended to get in. and the poor things, english heritage have done erm they've they're recreated a room at priory and they've got woodworm in it and all their furniture's falling to pieces it's terrible . erm it really is they should have should have t been more careful in a way but and this you see is a fairly goodirly goody good ey seem to mm. now if it had been the north side it would have been a straight line. yeah wow. so there's quite a few of these. erm around and about the place. erm and also there are in the top i haven't got a ladder, i can't show you now, some of the numbering cos they numbered the bays in in roman letters, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. originally seven bays. and we were in some of them when we started off in that sort of office room. so a bedroom here, another bedroom here and then the great chamber, the most important bedroom . i wonder if you could erm i wonder if you could ask michael to look into that. because it obviously's been . right okay. could you or ask yes. someone on the team, yeah. thank you. the great chamber, we don't have great chambers now, but sort of the master bedroom, private sitting room, erm would have had a big bed in it. bed of what was called the hung bed. it didn't hadn't got they didn't have four posts at this time, they hung the top part of the bed, literally hung it from cords wrapped round rafters. . the canopy was hang directly on cords rather than on side posts there were no corner posts. so bed in one corner, the great bed. also looking at pictures locking chest with your money, your armour your most precious things in your great chamber. and if you were an important enough visitor, you were allowed to come up the privy stair and straight into the great chamber. you see, if you were not important you went to the hall and waited er for the master to see you. if you were important enough you came up to see him. and e if you look up there that extremely overbuilt area there is called the crown post truss. crown post because the braces come out like the points of a of a sort of pantomime crown. er and there were four crown post trusses or well no five crown port trusses, you see half of on there, half of one there and a whole one there. partly original, partly refurbished. because what they did when they dropp i told you they dropped a whole storey. what they did fortunately for us, is to keep the roof structure, saw out the pieces, prop up on on on posts and then drop the whole roof by a whole storey so it we've still got the roof. otherwise we wouldn't have known what it looked like. now we do. and this is the great chamber, and this is where their tour ends i think if we just go back if we go straight back into the place we started, and so just finish it off, then i must i must finish off as well. erm there's our er our blacksmith's mark there, the little hill you see, upside down it's a little hill cos he's called john so that's his mark. . and are you from the university too? yes. yes. probably with braziers we think as far as we know, although there is also a chimney breast there which is a later date. although it may well cover something of an earlier date. it's something we've just had to leave cos it's . how many bedrooms would there have been originally? it's very difficult to say because we've lost this end of the house and we've lost the other wing. yeah. probably about six. about six. i wonder if could do something about the window in the great chamber wind's blowing through . oh we get some coffee? yes. oh let's have some coffee yes. right i'll have some coffee. then i'll leave to you. so i i hope i've told you something about the history of the house. you're not required to know all that remember or indeed any of it because they have everything they need to know, particularly if they do the long tour, they have everything they need to know on the tour and everything they need to know about the furniture well pieces of furnitures. on the other hand you'd be very odd people if you didn't take an interest in something in particular, some people take an interest in the w wooden frames, some take an interest in the textiles or some piece of furniture. some people i mean, elsie loves cleaning things so she's spends all her time waxing things cos has to be cleaned very carefully. you mustn't use modern things on them or it'll really wrock them irreparably and you've done four thousand pounds worth of damage before you know it. and or course you never use water on an oak floor cos it stains. so and again i emphasize you've not responsible for cleaning either, but elsie just likes we can't stop her cleaning. . erm so you're not required to know all that, or any of it or much of it. probably if you if you were to absorb the information in that guide book, that would be enough. . don't this is one of those places where you have to is there any way you can see these things being made such as the horn somebody working in horn for instance? only by going to their workshop and every now and then we have somebody who well every now and then somebody is fitting something. but we don't we don't and then can you come and see it then, can you come and see it being done. yes if you wanted to, yes. the other thing we do sort of every now and then, and next time will be easter, we actually have some people in costume who actually reoccupy the house over waster weekend in this case as as the household of william and they've been coming for a long time now and they've got set into the set into their roles quite well. so lady , we've never found any gentlemen old enough to play old william because he was in his seventies at this time, we never found an old gentleman play william , robert hardy's not quite old enough. he said he's like to try just not er old en robert hardy's our special patron really here, he's very interested in coming to the banquet, he was up the other week wasn't he, last friday whenever it was. and but we have a lady , who is i suppose she about sixty five and she's got really into the part of playing lady . and we have and elizabeth and various people . eventually of course we shall employ people full time to do these things. but er not not for a long time. cos we're nowhere near ready for people to move in. and as well. mm oh there's a whole lot of things. the craftsmen's evening once a month on average, one of the craftsman comes to tell us about , the next one is on february the twelfth . mm? on the twelfth. yeah that's john , if you can get a ticket for that, john is by far the best lecturer among our craftsmen, i mean he's just an absolutely amazing character. . . erm it'll be it'll be erm twelfth, thirteenth it'll be the tuesday, no i think it's the fourteenth or the fifteenth. yes it is on the tuesday. yeah well anyway. that's the next craftsman's evening, that's john the potter and tiler and he'll be very very good. we only have forty seats so if you are interested i'm . these craftsman's evenings tend to get booked out don't they. yeah. so john where do they get tickets for that? erm the shop i think. yeah. do we think that? yes? erm and then the next one after that is is i know is march the fifteenth which is adrian who's the er woodworker. and he'll be do a very good show rather a shy man but he will and that will be that will be rather technical if i know adrian, but if you if you like he's that's the time to come. we've we've already had i'm afraid we've already had the and er . . i mean er some people we we had a lecture on the archaeology. that was specially for volunteers. we try to have events specially for volunteers as well. we have parties and yeah. christmas mhm. party. and twelfth night which was . we've got another party coming up as well. have we? nobody tells me anything. when? march oh. erm anyway there are there are various . mm? the third of march. . erm . good. so . . have you got any questions you'd like to ask me about the history. rather than about the working of the place cos . can i just ask about the the fact that everything's made of greenwood? yes? erm when it sort of begins to sort of season mm. will will will the plaster work crack? no because everything was originally made of greenwood i mean yeah but roofs used to get twisted didn't they? yes they do, it probably will twist a bit. i would imagine the plaster wall have to be replaced cos there's a lot of work that needs to be done on t we've already had to deal with the plastering once, in fact we wouldn't have noticed cos we hadn't seen it before but what happened is that the the frame of the hall particularly shrank so that we had gaps in between where the plastering was and where the wood was and we had to have a couple of men that we used for this, erm come in with lime plaster and fill in all the cracks for a week or two. and we may well have to do it again. now when that settles down a little bit more, maybe in a year or two, we shall lime-wash the whole frame over so you won't see the timbers for a bit, and just lime-wash right over the whole timbers. and if i can possibly we might do it in a kind of pinky colour which is what seems to have been at least on part of the house. raddle you know that you use for marking sheep. mm. the red raddle? the red raddle yeah? red raddle yeah. well they us i mean usually it's red, you can have blue raddle, but it's raddle is usually red. mm i'm just trying to think what they use red raddle for marking and and sheep just to ma so you know which ones he's served. you put a a plate on his chest with raddle on so he marks them as he comes round. funding from to well the funding is either the initial funding was a fairly brave thing by the archaeological trust from its own funds. there's been no government erm we're now what happens is every now and then like now we just simply run out of money i mean we've simply run out of money. that's why i'm fiddling around doing the odd window here and there because that's all that we've got for. er we've got a little few earmarked funds left over like for instance, theakston's brewery gave us the barrels and they gave us two and a half thousand pounds. we were able to do the hall or we'd still be nowhere with it, only because of a donation of thirty thousand pounds quite out of the blue, from the london glassworkers' company which meant we didn't expect it. so we were able to complete the hall or complete the hall as far as it's got. we know that we have a little more money coming in the ne in the new financial year from an american foundation but not much. enough i hope to enable me to complete the windows. which is really the urgentest most urgent thing. which i hope we may be able to in april because really they are a disgrace at the moment. but erm we can't spend money we haven't go, we can't spend money and erm i mean er if we spent if we went on spending money, then what would happen is that the trust would simply well it would go it wouldn't exactly go broke but jobs would have to be cut and that sort of thing, people would be very badly affected by it so you just have to wait. we're not the kind of thing that attracts government funding cos we're not sort of we don't go along with the architectural you know, the architectural establishment really insists that everything should be exactly just so. have you any idea when it's likely to be complete then? no because i me because i don't know cos cos it depends on the money. yes. . no probably not in a sense but then when complete enough to actually use is another matter. i just seems like something you could just keep building and building forever. you could do but i mean, i i the n the amount of money needed for completion sounds a lot but actually it's probably i think two and a half two hundred and fifty thousand to complete. i think . costs tend to be be i mean it costs now costs are those of doing things by hand. the hangings for instance in the great hall not including those in the , cost nearly ten thousand pounds. oh good grief. well you see hand woven, hand dyed er hangings at fifty five pounds a yard, seventy pounds a hard to make. were they done in york? no. no the only firm that does hand weaving and hand dyeing on on a big enough scale is in west wales in the middle of a place called . and the only horn and we're often dealing with with only the only this, the only that. the only horner is in in in in lancashire. blacksmith comes from east yorkshire, but i mean, he's just a very good blacksmith. but the furniture is made all over the place although 's our best maker and he's up in scotland. erm now let's see, the linen is made in scotland because it's the o he's the only linen maker i ian is the only linen weaver. incidentally erm next friday no the friday after, so friday the eleventh anyway, we're gonna set the whole t erm hall out for the banquet a day early so that people can come and see it. we're going to have guards there to make sure they don't nick the knives. cos the knives are very beautiful they've all been individually made. so er thirty thirty's as many how many people will be coming to the banquet? people we can get in. we've still got some tickets unsold but they are fifty pounds. they're fifty pounds because of economies of scale. thirty people paying fifty pounds makes you fifteen hundred pounds. the food and service is costing eight hundred pounds alone. so in fact i mean we'll be lucky if we clear a profit on it. people say, oh that's very expensive but in fact if you think about it, it probably ought to cost a lot more. but there we are. are you serving medieval food? mm. oh very much so, we're serving it all we're serving courses which actually contain the whole meal. so where you have your potage erm meat, vegetables such as they are, and sweet. and then you have the whole lot again, then you have the whole lot again. and you eat in what is called messes so that you eat in a mess of four and the server comes in and puts a plate of it might be venison and a plate of which is a kind of erm corn and er in front of you. and you have a plate per mess and you take as much as you want onto your trencher and your bowl. like that. it should be quite fun cos they have to carve by messes got these knives. yeah. er the other thing to come to if you don't want to spend fifty pounds although we'll be very pleased to see you the banquet in the afternoon and there's a lecture in the afternoon at two o'clock? anyway it's advertised, by peter who is erm doing the food. and i shall just introduce him. erm in the afternoon at st william's college and i think that's ab i don't know what it's about two pounds fifty or something. anyway all these things are advertised. . yes that's right. he's going to be going to talk about the . we'd much rather you came to the banquet. . will the guests be in . no the guests will not be in costume, we thought it was unfair that they should make them in costume. the servers and table hosts will be in costume. mm. erm so there are a few are the are the caterers from out of town? they have we're having to employ a specially approved you see we've got the health and safety. oh yes. we have to have an approved caterer which and what's gonna happen is that those two room that the room where the weld and the wool were, we're gonna virtually be sealed off mm. erm so that hygiene laws can be observed. and that's why that's another reason why it's all so expensive. yeah. but we have to do it, they'd be absolutely down on us like a ton of bricks if we didn't. i mean we could cook it much more cheaply but we we do that then they'd just they'll throw the book at us, we can't do it. yes there are are there specialist people who do this sort of thing? well there are specialist outside caterers, she's never done thins before. mhm. she's actually working under the direction of peter who cooks you may if you're interested in cooking you've probably read books by peter . yes i have. and he's a director of leeds museum well he is at the moment anyway. mm. erm he runs hampton court. mm. the kitchens every now and he's a bachelor and he's passionate about cooking. and so every year between christmas day and new year's day, he takes over the kitchens at hampton court with his forty assistants and runs them. i mean they had twenty two thousand people round this year, it's takes him a week to recover, the poor man. anyway, come to the lecture, erm he's a very engaging talker is peter. mm? i'm afraid not, you can imagine why not can't you. yeah . you'll have to excuse me now, erm i must go and you you'll take over . i'll take over, yeah. i forget what i'm doing next i think you have a meeting with somebody else so i have so i have well er we're running something else as well at the same time so . it's always this busy . i'm always this busy. . erm we hope to see you again, erm if you if you want to come. erm erm anyway mike will tell you all about the details so see you later everybody. thanks very much. bye. bye bye. this opportunity to welcome you to barley hall again and er i hoped you all enjoyed charles' bit. erm we've got another session on tuesday at ten o'clock so i haven't got a lot to say now. erm but just a few words. the most important thing i think is erm what charles has said about the house erm is quite important. li as he said it doesn't matter if you don't remember it but if people ask you questions and you don't know the answer, please send them down . erm people don't generally mind that we can't have people making things up, guessing because then we'd the reputation of the trust. which erm is known worldwide. and the house is now just about becoming bodies all over the world and the press are beginning to take attention and the radio and the b b c last week. erm and you never know who's coming in, it could be anybody and if we start saying things which aren't to, then we'll eventually damage the project a great deal. there are a lot of people out there who are historians who would like to it's very successful and sometimes people don't like success. so that's the most important thing. erm i don't know whether charles has said anything about who people are,barley hall, charles is the historical consultant, he's done all the research . erm my role is as volunteer coordinator so looking after you, that's my main job. erm other people marilyn you've probably met already, she's really like the project administrator, she's in charge . peter erm you'll see around from time to time, he does all the design stuff erm and christine erm looks after all the hangings and and stuff. and she's the office administrator. the main office is in piccadilly we've got a a small office here as well. it's the green door . erm gaby you'll see around as well erm she's in charge of the educational side, she books in all the school parties and designs educational projects and so on. she also . and that's charles, marilyn, peter, gaby, christine and myself really are the people who . erm . erm it's quite important that we give out a very professional . which means that we've got to be polite to people and so on. we're not we we do need some kind of commitment from you, we we don't need a contract . and we do anything from one session a month to . and some people do up to two a week. but one a month is . erm and all we ask is that if you if you've said you're coming to do a session, that you do actually turn up and if you can't then if you can telephone us as early as possible to let us know that you can't make it, that's not a problem . so long as you let us know, we can arrange for someone else to . we have had days when we've had three s stewards scheduled for the morning we've looked at the rota and thought and we've had no-one turn up panic. so but we're we're very easy with things, we don't erm we don't jump up and down and get cross erm so long as we can get some . and people swap their days how many people do you need at a time then? erm at the moment, we try and aim for three for each session. twice a day? yeah. so that's usually six. is that winter and summer? yeah. mm. and that will probably increase as we get into the summer cos the visitor numbers will increase. no . erm some of you haven't in yet do that now. erm . actually you probably know whether you've filled a form in or not don't you. it is carried. those in favour. aye. those against. no. the ayes have it. item six to report social services committee mr then you turn your attention away in a minute and the rotten devils do chairman, i i move that the report of the social services committee regarding the future of the county council's old persons homes be noted. i hope chairman that er david will listen to the arguments on this because like other members of his group he throws out closure of elderly persons homes, y'know we've gotta do it, we've gotta do it something about which he knows absolutely nothing and about which he's completely wrong. erm i've always believed that consistency is an overrated virtue so i'm not gonna criticise the conservatives for changing their minds but you have to ask yourself why is this recorded on the agenda today when the sub-committee, planning sub- committee has already met and discussed these matters and things have moved on a little further well we we really have to look at how the resolution in this paragraph came about in the first place. erm at the beginning of the social services committee meeting mr moved a resolution which he previously moved at the social services planning sub-committee which listed most of the things which are presently in the the resolution but it started the social services accept the implication of the director of social services report on the future of the department's elderly person's homes erm, after some minutes of debate the er democrats asked if the tories would remove that phrase from the resolution and then tha the democrats, the liberal democrats would vote for it the tories of course er looking gift horses in the mouth as usual, said no and the the that resolution was lost. we then voted on a lengthy liberal resolution er, it was amended by labour we voted on all of the separate points in the resolution, all were agreed and then professor decided that he wanted to move a further amendment which after some consultation, some discussion with the legal people about it's validity, he did which wiped out all of the things that we'd just agreed and we turned to the original conservative motion minus the beginning phrase and with a couple of things stuck on at the end and we thought well that's it the conservatives will vote for that, but no although it was their own motion in all but name, the conservatives wouldn't vote for that unless mr was allowed to move it. so he did. so he did and it was voted on and it was agreed. we spent chairman, two and a half hours discussing this matter at that point and we had come full circle back to point 1. to get back to that beginning phrase the social services committee accepts the implications of the director of social services report on the future of the departments e p h's. that report predicted a rise from five hundred to nine hundred er in the vacancies in in homes by nineteen ninety six. since then at the planning sub-committee mr has produced a whole load of new made-up figures which pretend that the situation is far worse than that. figures designed to get headlines not make headway. the figures actually which i got from the director yesterday are that the department is counting four hundred and ten vacancies of those four hundred and ten, two hundred and thirty four are out of commission, they're in homes being refurbished seventy two are in blocked places, that is double rooms being lived in by a widow or widower where er they'd previously shared it with the spouse or er disability reasons, health reasons, behaviour reasons of a resident er in a previously shared room. purposes like that er which take out seventy two places. in fact as of the first of this month, the number of real vacancies was a hundred and four now today i've received another list of er so called vacancies from the leicestershire south area. as of the thirteenth of the ninth ninety three i'll just read through one or two of these. curtis weston, no vacancies, one short stay vacancy. demontfort, no vacancies. endaby, two double rooms being used at single occupancy for lental house residents, one shared female bed available. so on and so on in leicestershire south ten vacancies, seven short stay vacancies. so you can see chairman the facts and figures simply do not support either the report which came to the social services committee originally or mr inflated figures. the true vacancies are a hundred and four across thirty eight homes, we're talking about two or three real vacancies per home. so mr talked in the debate about internal reorganisation about continuing to provide services for which there is an over provision and it berated me and the labour group for that. well the figures show that assessments of the over provision are incorrect but even had they been correct if circumstances were an over provision comes about not because of an increase in our provision of services, but because of expansion in the private sector. are we supposed simply to abdicate our responsibility and for every new place that's started in the private sector, we close down a place in our er organisation. is that what this is about, that places can continue to spring up in the private sector and we must close our homes in order to meet that demand not from elderly people for places but from the private sector for profits. placements, april to august a hundred and fifty nine in nursing homes, two hundred and eight in residential homes in all sectors. but, we know that april was a low figure, we also know that july and august are low a figure which comes out from this graph and was given to me by the director yesterday, is a genuine average which is turning out to be between a hundred and a hundred and ten placements per month twelve hundred to fourteen hundred placements per year a thr over a three year average residency period three thousand six hundred to four thousand two hundred placements in residential care, where then is the real problem. the problem is with the fact that seventy five to eighty percent of people are being directed towards the private sector and only twenty to twenty five percent towards the public sector, yet still the private sectors squeal. i've got here a copy of a letter by peter spokesperson for care, a more misnamed organisation you couldn't wish to come across, a combined association of residential establishments. a letter to g p s. dear doctor,we have noticed that as a result of a press article, copy enclosed, that there's been concern stressed by a number of general practitioners with regards the slowness of the social services controlled community care programme as an association on behalf of our residential and nursing home members we have been stating the same fact to social services who have basically denied the existence of any problem, although we hope that in the long term the social services will be able refine their system to be more efficient, as an interim measure we are offering you a direct line service. if you wish to effect a placement in a residential or nursing home we hope for the time being it will help resolve your problem. this is an attempt to circumvent the assessment process. they cannot of course do that, this letter described by the director of social services as a disgrace. no, people sitting across in the other benches saying of course they can are wrong. of course they can't. people may put themselves into residential care if they wish they will pay the whole of the bill. if they wish to be assessed as needing residential care and using public money then they have to go through the assessment process and be assessed as needing residential care. so this letter which refers to our processes in this county council, it's talking about people who want to go into residential care and to use public money. all of that being said and mr will talk a bit more about the figures when he comes to speak. people will no doubt be relieved to hear what has finally been included in the planning sub-committee resolutions. that homes already furbished or in the process of being refurbished or identified for refurbishment shall not be closed and will re-open as county council e p h s. that reassurance is essential to residents, staff and to the community. that's what they desperately want to hear. we have also decided that we will look again at the costs of refurbishment. that we will seek to refurbish the homes which will cost least to refurbish, first. that way we will achieve more in the period and for the money that is available. that will leave us, presumably at the end of this process with some of the worst homes, which we will then have to decide what to do about. so although the labour group will be moving a reference back of this matter as an amendment. i have to say that our input into what is going on is still very strong. we are still attempting to persuade people that the figures they have been given or have invented are wrong and if we operate on the real figures there is no reason for mass closures of elderly persons homes and we are still attempting to make the refurbishment programme work as best we can to achieve the most we can in the shortest period and for the least money. chairman i move formally. seconder. sec right we have an amendment to be moved by mr . i thought you would chairman, take it later i see a lot of hands up on the other side. erm the reason why we moved the amendment on this is er jim been and that has, we started to query the figures i didn't get involved in the all this week and th people like jim , david loads of my attention and the whole er exercise was a fraud they're all bum figures and when i checked, the figures i have checked here are done by a senior officer when i showed 'im what stuff was being wrong. apartments and i couldn't believe how they they there there could work up such a system and i'm serious, i i really mean this mr chairman, it is serious. now what you were doing was, you got the top figure of available beds and you this time, i'm only going for the this paper that is shown to me a an an an and produced some place in in your apartments and it says here, partly vacancies weekend in the first of august. i was surprised when i found out who the officer, a very capable officers what's done the figures. but then i was reminded how i thought of a an accountant who was at work what figure was five and five and he said what figures did you have in mind. so what has happened here i believe, that there was someone told, i don't know who it was was told this is the figure, now you you you're . i will say that because as, we haven't heard the end by a long way for, of this one. jim pointed out that and when i looked at, in the report here, page fifteen, two of your paper and there it says in little letters b, little little two appendix b a during the year, a three year period from june ninety three to october ninety six, the level of occupancy the department's afford. vacancies who arise from five seventeen,had a figure of five seventeen, when i looked at this now, how could y , where did they get the figures from this . didn't that someone to do the the the homework for them. so you did, right at the top one as i said two thousand four three four and then the closure of coulson house in it. well i hope there's nobody in coulson house because it's boarded up and i cannot see how you get a vacant bed in coulson house and this is this exercise. so we take that away and then you got the refurbishment programme and now taken away from the refurbishment programme something like two hundred, now where is the if you're refurbishing four homes where is the vacancies when you close the home, you have made the staff the redundant, they go up the road or out wherever they're going to redundancy persons. you have made 'em red, you have made 'em redundant and you in, in you have and i hope you've had nobody redundant because i've i'd be pleased to go out to those homes and say them come back and i would be pleased to go up to and say you've got your figures wrong because you're saying that nobody's made redundant ooh well i i'm so pleased. i hope i've been given i hope i be the temporary staff but,those homes are being refurbished, there are no vacant beds in those homes because they are being refurbished. you are carrying that number forward. now if you have a rolling programme and you wanna say we refurbish four at a time, roughly i would say fifty beds in these two hundred, give or take some money because they vary. that's taken out, must be taken out of the calculation because they're not vacant, you can't get anybody in there, the criteria i say, should be beds available for permanent occupation. now you count on that but the next vote then comes in and they're still not available beds are not available in it, and the next four and the next four so you'll have, for years you'll have those out of operation would you like to call it that way and out of production. now to weight that and the next one is respite an short stay beds as you mentioned. now if you any system you got to have beds for short stay etcetera, you don't count them into whether the those are vacant, because you have to keep some of those vacant in emergencies etcetera so you can't count them. well, this is how you got the figures and then you have the temporary absence as jim pointed out and advance bookings. i got a higher figure than jim because i was i can't believe, believe this either th th the officer that, that, that, done this say to the, the, that's the figures that have produced then they're completely wrong and i can tell time time time time, right, i am moving the amendment the reference back and i'm handing those papers to the chief executive and i'm gonna ask the chief executive to get someone independent to do this because you can't get away from the numbers that the numbers i've get someone independent i'll ask for that. you can't get away with a with a fraud like this. you can't away with er some bum figures like this one, it's not good enough for the members to give, be given wrong information and i and i can tell you this we'll be coming back again and then we would know and where they were getting where they were getting the seventeen homes time closed right down no is a load of bloody bunkum the whole i move have we a seconder? have mr thank you mr chairman. for mr information the vacancies are the difference between the number of beds we maintain and the number of residence we have. every bed in that difference has to be paid for with wasted money but in addition the loss of income from that bed has to be found from cuts elsewhere in social services. i frankly can't deal in the time allowed with what mr said, i have never heard so many inaccuracies and misconceptions in a speech, it was the most comprehensive political suicide speech i've heard yet in this council. the truth is mr chairman that community care had as it's major objective extending choice, give the chance to stay at home to many people for as long as possible, to eliminated the unwanted percentage of residential placements. what it's revealed, totally unexpectedly is the vast extent to which inappropriate placements have taken place for many years. totally unexpected because frankly no government, no civil service would have given us as much money for residential places as they did if they'd known. the knumdrum where the people have gone has now been answered because the amount of domiciliary care needed to keep them out of residential places to meet their needs and wishes turns out to be very much less than we expected, on average less than seven hours a week. this report mr chairman is already history which is as mr has said not to say it doesn't represent progress, it addresses for the first time the historical issues, it starts to address the lessons of the first quarter. we now know the outcome of the second quarter ignoring today and tomorrow which can bring, can make no major change in the scale of what we face. leaving the rest of community care aside, the admissions to our part three e p h s were thirteen in july, twelve in august and in the first twenty eight days of september, just four. that's less than one placement for every ten homes over the quarter, an average of less than ten in total per month. we must now fear with good reason that it was the first three months which were not typical. late last year i was accused of scaremongering, dismissive speakers rubbished the remarks of the district auditor, not interested in what he was saying. the only thing i could be safely accused of was understating the problem. i still commend this report to council as the first real stride along the road we have to take, there's no choice about that. this stride and those that have followed last week, as recently as last week as mr said are already miles back along that road. the s the revolution of social services called for a rolling programme and a rolling review and the amendment mr is utterly meaningless because the matter will be constantly referred back and further considered by social services whatever the amendment says that's what the original resolution said. it contains a rolling review precisely so that it should remain a valid basis for whatever tomorrow may bring. in truth the rolling review has become a running review circumstances are changing with no respect for the committee cycle. indeed some of us think we now know what bankers in the republic felt like, if you stand up to make a speech the matter has moved on before you sit down again but i must tell you of the next major problem. flowing from that that which social service must face urgently and that is this. from the low admission rate, the nine hundred thousand in our revenue budget which was shown this year as savings, seven hundred thousand of which was met by fudging community care money in june is now short by three hundred thousand so at the end of this year there will be an overspend or rather a loss of income of three hundred thousand which will show up as a deficit on social services budget for this year. next year the full year effect of the revenue budget one point five five million, already two hundred thousand short, the estimated loss of income from reduced placements will now put another eight hundred thousand on that er, so there will be a million next year, so i have to tell you there is a gap of one point three million pounds in the social services budget which we have not yet faced. mr chairman the social services committee and it's sub- committees face many more agonizing d decisions. nobody wants to close any bed that is offering a good quality service, that is wanted and being used. no one can afford to keep open beds that are not being used, not just losing savings but soaking up resources that can only come from cuts in other vital social services. the social service of this council. you're on time. are controlled and driven by events not by any one party or any parties. for the sake of our service and their users we must ensure we are not overrun by those events. thank you mr the support of the whole council now would recognise thank you mr and gratefully aid that work. mr please. chairman, i must confess to being erm, to being somewhat pessimistic about this whole er this this whole problem of of the need to refurbish and the need to tackle numbers in our elderly persons homes. i i listened to mr speech with some incredulity i must say, but i did listen to what he said and if what he said is true then i i find some of the things disturbing and and er i'd like to see his figures and i i w i i that there have certainly been er two messages coming to the social services committee in in in that case. i'm pessimistic because i believe that if the council is to tackle what i still believe to be a big problem of the local authority then it cannot really do so without the support of the largest party on this authority and if we have heard erm an honest assessment of their perception of of the case, i i really i really do despair that this council will will get to the bottom of the problem. er, we were told by mr that there is no problem with numbers, remember there are two, there are two things we've got to tackle, one is numbers, two is conditions in our home. i mean, one's, one's entitled to ask i think if there is no problem, if we only have vacancies of two or three in our elderly persons homes throughout the county wh erm why on earth did the director of the social serv , did the director of social services and his deputy at the meeting on the twenty fifth of august of the social services committee, say that this was the greatest problem which was facing this council. why on earth eighteen months ago did the district auditor issue a letter saying that unless the council did something about the situation of numbers and of finance within its elderly persons homes then it would come in and it would require the council to take action. why on earth on the twenty fifth of august at the social services committee meeting did labour put an amendment which accepted that there was a vacancy problem i quote from the labourer, from from labour amendment that er we don't agree to closures, fair enough, that's your position. but that that we ask for an exploration of the feasibility of widening the use of homes into nursing care, very sheltered accommodation, apartment style accommodation etcetera. now if there is no problem why on earth do we have to put that sort of that sort of work by officers erm, in, in to action erm, so between the, if i understand labour's position now chairman, between the twenty fifth of august and the twenty eighth of september, we have now gone from accepting the problem and seeing how we can solve a number problem to saying that there is no no number problem and that everyone is cooking the books. i find that quite incredible, if it's true erm if it's true then it's a very serious allegation which labour is making against the officers in social services department and i imagine that if er, that if those numbers are proven then er i i shall be looking i shall be looking for scalps because i have been, i would have been, so would the liberal party and so would the labour party, have been wrongly informed. i don't believe we have been wrongly informed but that's the logic of the charge which has been made. i i simply, i simply want er er a direct message from from the programme which is going on chairman incidentally i i note that nottinghamshire county council erm has found a a and the labour group there has found it necessary to tackle just the same problems erm in elderly persons homes and that i understand that they have a a closure list of seven, now presumably that has been drawn up from a long list of a lot more than seven, say fourteen or fifteen from which they've made their final choice. i think we're entitled to ask if nottinghamshire faces those problems, what is peculiar about leicestershire that it did face those problems but all of a sudden it doesn't face those problems. i i don't think myself and i still have an open mind and i don't think that the labour case erm adds up to be perfectly honest. i simply wanna say two things and that is this that within a month if this scheme is to work i believe that the council or the social services committee must draw up a long list of homes which it proposes to close and that long list will be in teams and that must be done not behind closed doors so that people know what is being proposed, we level with people who live in those institutions and they are fully acquainted with our, with our intentions and secondly i think it's necessary to understand from this programme that it is not just refurbishment programme, it is a refurbishment and closure programme the simple equation being that the money that comes from closures from capital receipts and some revenue savings, actually goes into the rest to refurbish them. that is the scheme er as as i see it and unless, unless i i thi , unless that is progressed quickly then as i say i am extremely pessimistic and let me just say chairman the dangers of not going along that line the dangers of the present scheme which was at the last planning committee meeting or or or was it one of the social services committee anyway, where four were chosen or or it was said choose a small number. that i think is half a programme and while that might erm while that might appeal to er members of the liberal party, half a cake's better than none. what i think the danger is there, from a conservative political perspective, is that having, having, liberals having with us if you like, got the principle through, liberals may then go with the labour party and say right we've got the principle through, we've identified four homes, let's have a refurbishment programme, a bit of airport money here, a bit of slippage there and we'll get this through and then we'll tackle the problem of closures and if closures is proving difficult let's ignore it for a year, let's do these four and let's go on. i would not recommend to this side that they have any truck with that particular perspective. here, here. erm, that is why i i b , that is why i'm against the amendment, i believe that decisions have been made. i still n , i still think that we need to make er quick pro progress chairman but er unless we do make quick progress and unless we do understand what's going on and call a spade a spade then i think this programme is doomed. thank you. mrs thank you chair. mr asked why we should close our homes and let private homes profit erm, if people choose either to go into the private sector or to stay into their own homes, what are we supposed to do tell them they've got no choice but to keep our substandard homes going? that's quite ridiculous. he says seventy to seventy five percent are being directed towards the private sector so why. i thought our social services people did that if they run that why should they direct people away from their own livelihoods. that's quite ludicrous, why should they shoot themselves in the foot and is mr seriously suggesting the same thing? i mean apart from a monstrous attack on our own officers who can't answer for themselves in this place. why should they be prejudicing the the jobs of the their colleagues, i, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. now i think the tables speak for themselves and they're born out by paragraph sixteen b of the report on page fifty nine. i just wonder when mr asks for other figures from the independent sector what would have happened if the figures that you've got before you today had actually come from the private sector. i suspect he would have been making exactly the same speech but saying that the figures were suspect because they had been come from somewhere else. thank you. mrs thank you chairman. i re do regret that this has come to full council yet again because i thought we'd already had the debate. at the social services planning committee we stated that we were anxious to make a fresh start in addressing the problems of our elderly persons homes. in the end chairman,we did reach consensus and i find no difficulty with that. but our original vision had almost been lost in the unclean political battles which have taken place. i re-read the speech that i gave in this full council chamber on november the twentieth nineteen ninety one nothing has changed except possibly it has got worse. what has changed though is the refurbishment programme and i'm not quite sure what mr was on about about er er the refurbishment programme. the officers advised us that we could deal with four homes a year. so that's why we said well let's get on and decide which of the next four homes to be refurbished. so as that we could have the rolling programme. no one should ever underestimate the trauma of change on res on residents their relatives and the staff involved, either in the refurbishment programme or in future closers and we have never denied that there will not be closures, we have consistently proposed that there should be. it's unfortunate that yet again the mercury got it wrong they stated that we had made a decision to close four homes unnamed that is not true and i do agree with mr that when we make a decision to close some homes that they should be named to avoid the terrible indecision which exists at the moment. i'm sorry mr has referred to closures in their teens cos this again throws residents and staff into total confusion we're too early in the programme of community care to know how many homes are going to close. we do know that two or three or four may have to in the foreseeable future. but without rationalisation chairman we will not be able to extend those services that we all know that we want to assist people to stay in their own homes. we've argued for years about meals on wheel service that there should be seven day a week service throughout this authority, we've only got it in the city, we want it throughout the authority. we will not be able to supply an adequate home care service without the release of the resources that are tied up in our elderly persons homes. we shall not be able to produce ethnically appropriate services without the necessary finance and nor will we be able to develop new services which are innovative to assist people to stay in their own homes and i'm just going to take one moment to mention one or two chairman. why can't you have a flying warden service if you stay in your own home like in warden assisted accommodation. i'd love to see a service where somebody could come and knock on your door in the morning and say are you alright and call again in the evening, just as if you were in warden assisted accommodation. if we have a night sitting service, an elderly person may not have to go in hospital if they are temporarily gone off their legs as sometimes happens. after tiny u-turns chairman two by the tories and one by the labour group, i do hope that finally we're going to make progress tonight. thank you. professor . i was only going to say chairman i wish people wouldn't band the figures around the council chamber which nobody has seen before therefore can't assess. the issue here is quite simple, labour have consistently turned their back on any closures, that's fair enough, so you wouldn't expect them then to produce figures which demonstrate that they're right. the conservatives have now the conservatives have now decided that home closure is the thing and you'd expect them to produce figures to say we've got to have thirteen or whatever number closed. what the, i believe committees have never had and least of all mr papers produced on behalf of mr have never had a serious rigorous objective assessment of the vacancy situation of the future which first of all starts from issue a rolling programme of refurbishments that we haven't really seen sight of the of the implications of that on the number of vacancies. this has never had it so this as far as i'm concerned really, the only thing that is needs to be made clear, is that we must accept of principle that's all we need to reason. mr . chairman i think this is probably the first time in this council chamber in twenty years that er i will probably have spoken on er social services issues er and i speak from an entirely private capacity and any information that er that comes my way is from what i might call informed members of the public erm, people who i come into contact with and from my own experiences as a ward councillor and from as we all do from time to time, my own family experience, my own domestic experiences and i do know something about the problems which are associated with the the care of elderly people er although i don't have that problem now erm things have taken their course. er, professor is right erm there may always be a possibility that at some time er you have to you have to recognise that there may be excess capacity in the system and i i don't believe that the labour party is not prepared to recognise that there may well be excess capacity in the system at some time. s what in fact er mrs said is too early in the process of community care to know how many homes you have to close she really is approaching it from the wrong way, it's equally too early in the process of community care to know how many homes you need to have open, keep open or open and that is one of the problems which i believe this council and other councils will will face. now from my observations of these debates i've not heard anybody on this council saying council debates that there is no role for this local authority or any other local authority there is no role for them in the provision of residential care or any extension of residential care because some of our residential care is getting very, very close to providing a degree of nursing care. nobody stands up and says that we shouldn't be in the business at all, we should get rid of all of them, so all the argument about how many. every group in this council and i believe every member who speaks, agrees that we have a need to refurbish homes. so those are the positive things about which we we all agree. now i would urge this council that it really is too early in the process for you to start making up your minds about what you're gonna in future. you simply do not have enough data. there is a perception amongst informed people in the community that there may well be a shortage of long stay beds in leicestershire and you do need to bear in mind that the national health service is increasingly going down the road of not keeping people in hospitals longer than they have to because hospitals are perceived as being very, a very expensive way of providing beds and you have to take that into account because that's a fairly clear national policy and you are likely to see an acceleration in that process from what i read in the national press. there's also a general view in the community that community care itself is not necessarily really working very well, there's some fears about it, some uncertainties and a member did mention, it may have been jim you know or somebody mentioned about the seven hours domiciliary, from my experience as a councillor i am not sure that simply because that figure exists that that means that that is satisfying the need of those people and in any case the sort of people who need to go into residential care, who can no longer be maintained in their home, with whatever help we give them or with whatever help their family have to give them they're not necessarily the sort of people who we're talking about need to go in a home. you must always remember that it's been a fairly small percentage of the frail elderly people who've actually ever had to go into homes. most of the people in some way or other, have been looked after by somebody else and that's the experience which i i've certainly gone through and if in fact you start making up your mind too early about which homes you're going to near time close, i can assure you chairman recognise the time, i can assure you chairman that our social workers when doing assessments will not, because i've had this from them, at grass roots level in a branch local party meeting,that our social workers will not indicate to those people who they've assessed that there are vacancies in those homes. they steer people away from any home which they believe is likely to be closed and once you start doing this, you will in fact be sealing the fate of those homes and you it's a very, very dangerous game, you've gotta be, you've gotta play it very, very carefully indeed and i hope chairman that there can be a degree of common sense and rationality introduced into discussions between the members of the various groups who have to deal with these very difficult issues. thank you. mr thank you mr chairman. well i believe that the report that er is before us that has been moved erm actually sets out a framework which the social service committee is able to work to and to monitor and i see no point whatsoever in referring this back to social services erm to delay further what is the inevitable. the figures that have been mentioned er and the danger with figures that are mentioned is that they can't be everything to everybody. now eighteen months ago we had three hundred and, it was april, the report in april nineteen ninety two there were three hundred and sixty five i think it was places that were vacant in our homes and this is before we started the refurbishment. now if jim is telling us that there are four hundred and ten vacancies now and he's explained where those four hundred and ten vacancies are we've picked up another fifty p places within that eighteen months. so we do have a problem to address but the i i like mr would certainly want some explanation from the director of social services if erm the report that we have before us at the planning sub-committee is incorrect because i deal with it said it it be noted that the capacity now exists to arrange for the transfer of residents from four homes to other res residential units as part of the rationalisation programme. not part of the refurbishment programme, not the difference. so we do have a problem and and we need to grasp that the a conclusion talking about rolling programme we are concerned about resources we're, we're, we're concerned about using them to the best advantage. we set up to be able to look at the refurbishment of our homes. now if we are going to say that this rolling programme, we we don't mean this rolling programme because it it's all going back to committees again to be to be looked at then we are putting our at a disadvantage they will disband and the cost to us for refurbishment will increase. it's essential that in the terms of the er report from the social service committee that we work, we work to the framework within that report. we have the ability to monitor it and i think that the discussions will have to take place as the director brings forward his proposals. there is a great deal within that framework er, it's not just about closing elderly persons homes, it's not just about refurbishment it's about resources and it's resources that we're very short of, to implement the sort of care programme that this council should be addressing. thank you. er, mr thank you mr chairman. as i, as i said earlier the new boy, the rather elderly new boy but i can assure the professor if i were a hundred years old i'd still be younger than 'im. that's how i look at life. now i i wondered whether you'd ever get it or not, come on quick quick. now what we'll be mr chairman is this. this has been hanging about for a long, long time while i've been on this and these people and they're very special people i've got this sword of hanging over my head. now these, why do i call these special people, for the first thing we're just coming out of a recession they s with three million unemployed these people suffered the depression and if you saw deprivation that was deprivation. there were no giros in them days. i beg your pardon. now they went into war, they came out of this war the weren't, there was no tip of the glory for them. there was fourteen feet of snow floods but the main thing about these people, they took their jackets off and got stuck in and they became special people because they laid the foundation of the welfare state that everybody else in this room g gained out of. they got the jackets off, they did the job, they laid it out for us. now surely we owe these people something better than this surely there's got the wickedness out or the intelligence to get this thing off the ground. if we've got to close homes, let's close them but make sure the homes that's left are warm welcoming and give these people the dignity and the independence to which they are entitled to which they've earned and which they thoroughly deserve. here, here. thank you. mr do you want to speak or reserve your remark. yeah, i think some of the new members should wait to speak chair. chair, sorry right, i i've i i've don't very often. it's gone, it's gone i don't very often agree with professor erm i very often don't agree with david either but i've got to admit that i agree with both of them today, we've got to make haste slowly on this one. it's alright us starting to go along the road of closures, but some of us have been here through it a lot, little bit longer than others and i think we have got to watch what we're doing. we don't know what the capacity is gonna be needed in the future. if the government gets its way and starts slapping seventeen and a half percent, twenty percent v a t on fuel, we might need some more residential places you don't know. if the figures that we've been given the recent figures, cos w i've been working on figures for august up to august but now we've got even better figures. if these figures are right that we've been given by the department and i'm not saying them whether they're right or whether they're wrong but well we have to r rely on what we're getting this is why mr is sending this lot to the chief executive for him to do some work i think it's very important that it is done independently, not by the independent sector but by done independently. if those figures are right of four hundred and ten now you don't need to be a real big mathematician, even at this time of night,but you, if you have the two hundred and thirty four out of commission and you've got to have those cos that's gotta be a rolling programme each four years. you're gonna have that two hundred odd there rolling over, it's gotta happen until the end of the programme and that is likely to take six, seven, eight years. you're way about half a century. that might be the simplest way and if you add that to the seventy two that are out of commission short term beds, holiday beds, which you've got to keep empty anyway. you've got your three hundred and six. now we've been told by, in reports that we've got five, six hundred up to ni , we're gonna have nine hundred vacancies this is mr at committee i said that unclear can we, can we come through the chair i think it's, it's very interesting that erm the these figures are there. now if we're gonna have those sort of figures we're talking about. what are we basing them on? i want to see, i'm i mean i saw mr and erm mr nodding when martin said he wanted to give these figures to the chief exec and ask him to er get it sorted out. i think that's right so, we we mustn't even start even thinking about closing beds at the moment. if we've only got two or three in each home empty, where are the people going to? i've checked with demontfort house today. ear early before i came over here and they've got no vacancies none none at demontfort house at all. we're told, we're told though in the report for au for august that we've got so many vacancies here, if we look at nuffield house in the august report there was fourteen, but we're only just refilling it again after closing it. we're only just refilling it. now i don't know where mr has got some of his figures from but i think we ought to check both our figures and his figures before we start jumping to not my figures please . erm mr chairman on a point of information, the figures he has obtained on my figures are figures in a report issued by the director of social services and i think on a point of information he should acknowledge that they are the figures given by the officers. thank you. they were not supplied and orders from you, yep. now we must keep we must keep be i know people and i'm sure every member in this council chamber knows people that need respite care. if you don't you're not wal you're walking around with your eyes closed. i certainly do in my patch. there are people that we are redirecting, we were re redirecting from demontfort house at one time, it was denied denied by by officers that it was happening. denied by mrs she had a letter. but you ask the people that work there, you ask social workers . that place was gradually being run down like a lot of the other are. david, near time. as far as the nottinghamshire erm thing the reason notts are having to close it is because the they've been capped haven't they and they've gotta save money. now i think this is what's behind all this actually. not to do with looking after people at all. it's to start saving money and give some and give some of this money to their private sector friends. once again this is what's happened. thank you david, thank you. so chair, i will second these resolut , the the amendment. mr yes, thank you chair, erm a lot of this debate circles around what we do about community care, i have to tell this council as far as i'm concerned, community care's dead in the water. without massive input from central government and local government there is no community care there are people out there not receiving the services they deserve with no prospect of receiving the services they deserve. let's not pretend that we can escape from our responsibility to these old people by pretending that the community will take care of them, that's not the way it's gonna be. er mr talked about the figures, i'm convinced that the figures that, that i was given still include perzon house i'm convinced that those figures were not, have not been taken out erm i don't know who should audit the figures, perhaps the internal audit should audit the figures. yes, yes, here, here. mr was completely wrong about the labour amendment erm in fact he read out the wrong amendment altogether. the labour amendment was to explore ways in which resources can be provided to fund and enhance refurbishment programme without closures and that for the next two years the additional necessary funding be sourced from housing benefit income and income from the sale of east midlands airport and from other capital receipts. now if the labour group had moved a widening of erm the sort of provision in our elderly persons homes, i could have understood that, because we didn't have real figures, we could not get hold of real figures, every time i went back to a local party meeting, to the labour group, to any other member they said, do you realise this home has this number of vacancies and your report says that number. do you realise that the figures are out that everybody knows that the figures are out. is mr and is er capacity for understatement. his desire to devastate our residential sector and close seventeen homes will be thwarted somebody over there, it may have been mr it may not have been, said that there hadn't been any redundancies. arbour house twenty four staff, twelve redundancies, twelve redeployed. huntingdon court twenty nine staff, ten redundancies, seventeen redeployed, two still in temporary posts. the limes,provisional figures twenty nine ninety three, closing during october, thirty four staff, sixteen redundancies, fifteen redeployed, two ill health retirements, one retirement. bythorpe hall twenty one redundancies, six lay off agreements, two redeployed, one temporary for a year, one on trial period two to three months. kurzon house twenty eight staff, seventeen redundancies of which two re since redeployed ten redeployed, one ill health retirement, of course there are no redundancies. we've not made anyone redundant, no one at all. that labour amendment i read out mentioned the airport money. i'm aware as everybody else is, that we could do the sort of sweepstake that we carry out on th , what time the meeting's gonna close and everybody can just put down how many times the the airport money had been spent. but the real fact is if this council regards elderly persons homes as the priority it pretends then it has to be the first priority for that money. it doesn't have to stand in line behind anything else. about er refurbishment and closure programme mr talked about, a a refurbishment and closure programme is a tory programme, not a labour programme and of course this is all verified by mrs coming along to the committee and saying please don't close barleythorpe hall, please tell the people that you're going to re-open barleythorpe hall, please do not allow them to think that it's going to close. has anyone seen barleythorpe hall? does anyone know what needs to be done there, what the work is and how much it is gonna cost, i'm sure mrs seen it. so why are social workers directed people into the private sector, they are under the same constant pressure of letters from the private sector, the wingeing, the groaning, the moaning, the threats of legal action, the threats of judicial review as the rest of us. hardly surprising that they over compensate is it put people into the private sector. i didn't understand her questions was it the figures had come from the private sector i'm not sure if she understood it herself either erm we've talked in the social services planning cuts committee about a list of homes for refurbishment and mr wanted a very long list er a list which would blight every home not on the list. mrs talked about four, we've actually agreed that there should be more homes on the list than four er for prospective refurbishment and mr has stood up and protested that he did not produce the figures, but professor still says you will produce figures for this and you will produce figures for that, none of us do that we all get our figures from the same place but we all get inconsistent figures. erm, mr knows when he talked about getting rid of all the a ho , our homes that of course, we're not allowed to get rid of all of our homes, if we were the tories would have moved it years ago. but what does happen is that people are directed away from blighted homes we know that that happens, it happens all the time, as soon as a home's name is mentioned social workers, quite honourably believe that there's no sense in putting down people's names, no no sense in sending people there and you would expect nothing different from them so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. the point to mr , the point of the reference back is simply to allow us to say that we do not accept the figures that we're being presented with. we will not accept those figures because they are not correct. everybody agrees now that the figures before us are not correct as everybody produces a different set er, it's alright for mr to sit there and mr like heckyl and jeckyl saying no we don't, no we don't, but he comes forward with different figures, worst figures than we're presented with in the reports, he does it all the time chairman. as for mr we're out of recession are we?well if that's an excuse for saying let's close homes well, i think that's a a terrible shame, all he, the certainty that he wants to offer to our elderly people is the certainty that their home will close and they'll be thrown out of it. people really do have to understand the trauma we are talking about with moving people out of homes, the trauma that moving them out for refurbishment is bad enough. but telling them that they will not move back is even worse. we really do have to put a human face onto these figures and these financial arguments, until we do that, we will not carry any decision in this council chamber which is worth a light to any single elderly person in any of our homes or outside of our homes chairman. i recommend to you the amendment. right, we now put the amendment. those in favour please show. right, we're just going to count. right, those against the amendment is lost, thirty six forty, er those in favour of the substantive motion please say aye. aye. those against. no. the ayes have it. we will now have a fifteen minute recess. six d the report of public protection committee. yes, i've just counted them, robert counts as two, bob that's important you see right . that's promotion in the labour rank would you like to move the motion please mr . would you prepare to move the motion please. yes, sorry mr chairman erm i move, what'm i doing? i move in the er public protection report that er mr chairman, the bell's still going do you want me to hang on a minute or what? no carry on, i, the first bell there they should have been in. carry on. but people are gonna miss my blooming speech they'll miss it. i know you spent hours, i know you spent hours preparing this speech. i haven't actually. the important ones are here, proceed please. i've prepared the amendment in the in in removing the port er mr chairman i think it's erm important to note the reason why the public protection committee have asked the report to be put onto the council agenda. not simply because we also want to put our bid in straightaway for the airport money which is er contrary to opinion had been noted. but to highlight to members of the council the importance of having the proper funding er er for the southern fire station. the reasons for the southern fire station are clearly outlined on page seventy and seventy one which is an extract from her majesty's fire service inspectorate. in particular item eleven point three of that where the h m i said sufficient capital should be provided to enable the provision of the southern fire station to go ahead. there is a large area of new build around where the southern fire station will be and i do say will be because it will be. that sounded, that sounded er, sounded quite good a promise and er one of the im important things er is that the chief fire officer is currently away in glasgow at the fire service conference, as you're well aware. but i spoke with mr about half an hour ago on the telephone, told him not to worry at all, that that's confidence. this evening bob will be changing his amendment to read the funds will be provided rather than consideration. and the chief said that doesn't compare he said that does not concur with a visit i had last night in glasgow whilst asleep when he awoke to a gleaming light at his bedroom and he said who are you and this figure said i am god and the chief fire officer said well god, all i want to know is one thing, will i get my southern fire station? and god said not in my lifetime. cos i've since spoke to god mr chairman. and he is, as you do, as you do, and he assures me that er we will get the fire station. i don't wish to underestimate it the, our attendance times around the meridian park area, the large new build area mr chairman erm, our attendance times there are shocking to say the least. no fault of our brigade at all, there's a desperate need for the southern fire station to go ahead without any doubt whatsoever, lives are at risk and the longer we leave this the more the costs will keep increasing and er i i believe that the airport money should be used to build another one now, it's all gone now owen, it's not spent yet. trust me. trust me i said not truss me, trust me. we have one of the best fire services and the best brigades in this country mr chairman and you none the least mr chairman on some of you recent visits and meeting some of our fire personnel are more than aware we are the the best equipped, the cheapest brigade and our chaps and girls in leicestershire, the morale is very high, regardless of what's going on around the pay dispute at the moment and i think that we need to show our support to those fire personnel and provide the adequate funding for the southern fire station. i'm assured by tommy that after i open the saw valley way er traffic jam on november the third, you you'll get a slight better erm, slightly better chance traffic through, er. have we a seconder? have you reserved any remarks, you want er mrs do you wish to speak? i sorry, sorry. we'll have the amendment first shall we? yes, let's have the amendment. we have an amendment by mr . i only did that just to test to see if you were awake. i think er in an effort to accommodate mr chairman, the members here this evening, it's been quite a long day, the the conservative amendment is very close to the amendment that both er myself and mr have put in and yes we would be willing to accept that, i think we've got the point across which the only thing missing from the conservative amendment is the thing about the airport money. i think i've made that point will you accept this subject in the raffle? chairman all i've heard so far is music to my ears er thank you. i'd like to er say one or two words before er moving the amendment and i, i'm very pleased to to hear that the two are to be incorporated as it were into this one. members of the public protection committee take due note of the contents of her majesty's inspector's current report, but in particular we take note of his concerns that the standard of fire cover in an area to the south west of the city is inadequate. he's repeated his concern to us regularly for eight years eight years. i've no difficulty in seeing why he's concerned er because i've seen the figures and examine the situation in in great detail. but even without the figures it takes very little imagination to see why this council must not put off any longer the construction and commissioning of the southern fire station. imagine with me chairman if you will the thoughts of someone trapped by some misfortune in the midst of the wreckage of a road traffic accident on the m 1 motorway southbound between junctions twenty one and twenty that's at nutterworth or northbound between twenty one and twenty two or westbound on the m 69 they'll be thinking the fire brigade'll be here in a minute or two. certainly the first appliance will arrive but on the opposite carriageway because it's coming from nutterworth or hinkley or colvill severely hampering what that appliance crew can do speedily. it's unlikely that they will imagine that the most helpful appliance is most likely to be one of three, battling to get through the traffic from new parts of leicester, lancaster place leicester and wigstone. three because the chief fire officer cannot guarantee any longer er that if he only despatched the one which is necessary, it would actually get through the traffic. similarly in the vast residential and commercial areas of enderby, norborough, homkirk, cosby, watchton croft, parts of broadstone and meridian itself the delays have become unacceptable. this area is the furthest such populated area from a fire station in the county. i have witnessed myself the effects of the delays on a number of occasions. within the past year a small fire in a large victorian house only fifty yards from my workplace watching helplessly while the building became engulfed before the brigade arrived from leicester and wigstone, five and six miles distance distant. minutes matter, we all know this because of regular news reports, videos and demonstrations to the committee. i know because many years ago i happened to be in the right place, in the ambulance i was driving at the right time and was able to e effect a rescue of an old woman from her smoke filled house at burstill ten minutes later i could not have done it because of the smoke. the fire brigade arriving five minutes later might have done it, ten minutes, definitely not. the chief fire officer advises us that the attendance times to the areas i have mentioned are regularly over the response times allowed by the standards of fire cover. he tells me that attendances between three and five minutes, over the ten minutes allowed are common. five, six, seven, eight minutes are understandable and acceptable lives are regularly saved in that time. more than the ten minutes allowed is no longer acceptable to the inspector or to the many thousands of people who live and work in a large and congested area of leicestershire. southern fire station will not only direct cover directly cover these areas but also provide essential back up cover to a much larger area including glaby, wigstone, nutterworth, hinkley and parts of the city. it is pleasing that there is a large degree of support for the southern fire station as i said it was music to my ears. this has been expressed by the acquisition of land by this council at meridian and by placing the scheme in the capital programme as a high priority. at our last meeting the council noted during question time that mr and i agree that the saving of life from fire is an overriding priority for this council. i therefore urge members to agree on by whatever mechanism the financial experts deem proper, i'll say no more than that, er to place southern fire station firmly in the capital programme for next year and ensure revenue monies are available to enable its swift and essential opening. with all sincerity er mr chairman on behalf of the people who live and work in that area i move the amendment. mrs mr . yes, thank you chairman. i find this just a minute, can you hold just a moment er just a minute can i just make it clear chairman on the amendment. as i understand the position mr and mrs and the council have accepted that amendment so you've now got that as your motion with your debate. i am pleased to hear that sir. chairman it makes the whole thing far simpler i think because there isn't really no disagreement about this whatsoever. i've read about mr help line, i didn't realise he had a direct connection to the almighty but he's obviously got his instructions and erm we are very pleased that he's going along the right lines. now this really is one of the most important things on the agenda today. it is far more important in my view than a token ban on fox hunting on which we spent hours earlier on in the afternoon. this is the kind of thing that we really ought to be addressing because this actually addresses the safety of people in this county, not only the safety of people, this addresses the safety of property as well and there's no disagreement about the fact that this enormous development that's happened over the last few years in an area where you've got a regular traffic snarl-ups mean that you have got a potential disaster there on your hands and we're jolly lucky we haven't any more serious incidents than we've had already and so i can see no reason why these two mo these two amendments shouldn't both happily be accepted though i'm very cynical about the number of times we've spent the airport money already and sooner or later we've obviously got to actually seriously address that but the important thing is that we do all take it seriously and it seems that we all do now take it seriously. that what the inspector's been telling us year after year, that we are in serious danger of not coming up to the protection safety standards, is something that we can't push into the background any longer and i'm very glad it's come to the full council so that the whole council can take it seriously the public protection committee has taken it seriously for a very long time. mr . mr chairman, i i welcome this opportunity er of of saying just a very brief word about fire service because as a new member i think one of the services that this county has er er is top in is the fire service. it has impressed but it has to have the right tools if it is going to provide the safety that councillor referred to and the saving of life which was referred to by councillor . i welcome too that the labour party have accepted the amendment. we now have a a piece of land which we can't use for fox hunting, so let's use it for the purpose it was bought for, use it for the fire station. but why i am pleased that this has been, that the amendment has been accepted is because of the words and that projection's been made of the eventual revenue requirements to enable proper future provision to be budgeted for. it is very important this is done, we can join the raffle for the east midlands airport and i'll tell you this i will help you pick out the winning ticket er but we cannot use the east midlands airport money for revenue to run the stations. to often we have heard of buildings that have been put under capital expenditure and then the revenue has not been available for their use. i think we must make it a positive step forward that this council not only goes forwards to build but it goes forward to use that building and give the firemen of this county the right tools, or firewoman, the firemen and the firewoman of this county the right tools to work with. thank you. mr i suppose i'm the er ghost at the feast. first of all i that at no time have the labour, the liberal and the conservative not been totally in favour of this fire station. they were last year, they gave an undertaking to do it as soon as possible, it is a case of where the money comes from er mr of course is relatively new er we don't bother about as a rule about what he casts as new costs in new staff. we just passed the revenue, the capital, the revenue then goes on the base budget, is called the revenue consequence of capital expenditure and all the fire officers ask for is enough to build a fire station and the cost of running it is automatically going onto your bill. now somewhere we've gotta sort this out, because this is part of last year. figures may be updated i seem to remember the fire station somewhere in the region of a million plus and the cost of running it was three hundred thousand a year. now both of these costs were fine, if this is your priority it's alright. i hope you'll pick out what's got to come from the east midlands national airport, can i remind you that a list of that has already been made and passed by this council when there was not a conservative majority and that had on it about seventy traffic calming schemes bottlenecks'll be done all over this county which in themselves save accidents and save lives. now er there are some areas based in my area where you wouldn't get the fire station, the fire engine through the bottleneck in ten minutes erm, all this has got to be put in its relative priority. now as long as this is council budget if this is what you prefer rather than dovelands school that's alright, this is the problem that the financial committee will be faced with this year. urgent demand for which i totally agree for millions more than the money is available er, as long as all the council says this is our priority of course you can have it. as long as you're answerable for the other priorities that can't be met. i'm totally in support of this, i'm support of a lot,want to be done. as long as we accept that there is a limit to what can be done and that in no way's detracted from fire station. i'm delighted fire station's run at a low cost. members here sometimes were almost ashamed of the fact. there's also want more money to cheapest in the country and i say good and i hope we can fit it in this budget time and i hope we all support this, for this. i hope when the financial sub-committee suggests the capital expenditure one isn't there. you will carry back to your electorate and tell them why it wasn't there. do you want dovelands put back?cos dovelands didn't come on this year either and this is a a dilemma that will face us all. i'm delighted it it's a conservative erm er resol er erm amendment that i think is agreed by all the council. that all agree this is a very high priority. next february will you still live with that priority. well we will, you might not. thank you for putting some life in the proceedings jim. mr . in short all i hope that er this unanimous er feeling for the fire service stays in this next pending dispute. i hope you still support firemen through their troubled times in the next few months. thank you chair. right mr you want to reply like to reply. thank you very much mr chairman. very quickly erm er the mrs said that er yes i do have a direct er line to god and one of the messages he did give me was that i should start to write focus. perhaps we could er i thought god was writing that very constructive er mr . mr erm er we've actually got the land for the er the fire station, i think you you were there with us. well it can't be used for fox hunting now. that's true. erm, it's actually sitting there on the meridian er business park, it's been sitting there for three years er overgrown with er grass and what have you and it's there. mr just very quickly erm i disagree with your analogy about the ghost but probably the rest of it, i'm not too sure erm the figures for the running of the fire station have been updated. it's no longer three hundred thousand pounds, the chief fire officer and the deputy chief fire officer along with the er, the finance wizard david, have worked very very hard on er producing revised figures, scrimping and scraping equipment from other stations and the the actual figure is about a hundred and sixty four thousand pounds now. we brought the figure down having at le , and waited two years and that's th , i think that proves the lad's foundation to the argument of how desperate the fire service need, need this station and it has absolutely nothing to do with dovelands school er er whatsoever as far as i'm concerned, i'm the spokesperson for public protection not education and that's it and er i'm surprised er er that i know erm er er that mr is is a very, very good supporter of the er southern fire station and supported us in the er in the er question we asked at the last council er meeting and er i'm surprised he hasn't spoke or even mr who er, who likes to s , who likes to speak in the chamber but i've hasn't supported the fire station. thank you very much. would those in favour of the amendment i'm very sorry but er it's not an automatic right, sorry, i'd like to have called him but er we've summed up, what do we do now? we have re, technically reached the end of the debate i'm very sorry mr i'm sorry you'll have to wave a little i'm very sorry er, those in favour of the ame amendment. it's an amended motion the amended motion please show. so that's subject to robert getting confirmation on sunday then. er i wish to move that the er motion which is on the green order paper. i do draw member's er an an in particular mr attention to paragraphs seven and eight of the report. paragraph seven making it clear put that an initial assessment has already established er it has already passed the preliminary assessment stage er and that er the director is undertaking the data collection procedure so that the site can be properly assessed and i do drawn er mr attention er to that i erm have taken the opportunity during the last adjournment chairman to to speak to mr about the appropriateness of the wording of his er er amendment and i believe that he he may wish to er move something which is slightly different er which will certainly er we'll deal with that er if he does move that but er it clearly is the intention of this report and of the committee that when the work has been completed on the assessment of traffic calming measure in shalford and its priority established, that we would then bring er another report er to the highways and transportation committee in response to this petition er as as indeed is set out in paragraph ten b and if mr wished that to be brought forward through to council then that will be done but i leave to him if he wish to move an amendment to make it quite clear, since er i must say this motion is rather bland. mr seconded chair, reserve my remarks. can i, i would like to change the wording of the er amendment and i'm grateful to mr for the advice he gave because i think by erm a slightly shorter and er er brisker wording i can achieve the objectives that i set out to achieve. if if if we if i withdraw the amendment in in terms that's on the order paper and substitute after the, after the erm, wording where it goes traffic calming measures on the b forty one at charnford and add on and that a further report be presented on traffic calming measures in response to the petition. if that could be added that would achieve my objectives and we can all get on to the debate about v a t on. is that acceptable? . thank you. agenda item seven. confirmation of minutes of committees and sub committees. i move that the minutes of meetings of committees and sub-committees in sofar as they require confirmation be confirmed by the council, except with regard to any matters still under consideration. for upon which a committee proposes hereafter to report to the council. all agreed. agreed. appointment, agenda item eight, appointments in accordance no appointments, all agreed. agenda item number nine, notice of motion, notice of motion by mr , mr . thank you mr chairman. as you know it, this is the last i'm sure everyone's aware it's the last item on your agenda when i was looking at the agenda this item was before the fox hunting motion i thought well it'd be nice to have a debate before the fox hunting motion because we would have er a full house of people who i'm sure would be very interested to hear the discussion on v a t. as matter of fact i'm sure they would w w would welcome the opportunity to have a de , a discussion, but it seems they have gone and i got, i got it wrong chairman when you by taking the the the fox hunting motion it should really have, have held on till this time in the evening. er i and the council will recall the last time we had a motion on v a t when we asked. the last council. the last council yes and why not and this council and we haven't heard the end of it yet, well i'll be coming to that bit don't rush, don't rush me we did ask the secretary of state not to impose v a t on fuel and light because of the hardship it would impose on the people and in particular elderly pensioners, sick and invalids. we wrote to the secretary of state after you passed that motion so it appears from the correspondence we have back from the secretary of state that they are bloody minded on this one and they're going to, he's going to support, press on with the imposition of v a t and since that time we we see he's well supported by the cabinet. now the the motion's expressing concern over the government's intention. when we got the letters back from the secretary of state one of his excuses if you like, for imposing such a savage tax was that it was save fuel and help the environment. now there's no mention of the human unhappiness by the imposition of the v a t and what this w w would, the concern no concern whatsoever about this savage tax. now when the chancellor in the budget said that he would help the poor he stopped short, there were no copper bottomed no copper bottom guarantee and then later on we had michael portillo got in on the act. now michael portillo is one of the tory high flyers, for anyone that don't know who he is, he's a tory high flyer who finds it very difficult to look down, very difficult to look down on those but he should look down before he makes a such statements. michael said there would be no special compensation so you can imagine why we're concerned and why we have this back on the as a motion again. a motion to monitor the effects it will have on people that we are responsible for. so really it's only right that this council should follow up on such a motion. because things are looking fairly bleak for pensions, disable etcetera. looking at the report and using the present criteria for increase in pensions and these are the figures that i didn't produce but er they look pretty bleak as i said because what the pensions can expect next year will be eighty four p for single pensioners and one twenty eight in that area for a couple and then we had look at we have some concern of what happened yesterday in a statement by the chancellor of the exchequer who said he is going to extend v a t and also it has now been that instead of putting on half of it in nineteen ninety four he put the full pile at seventeen and a half percent in nineteen ninety four because what was being saved is that if he's leave the other half to nineteen ninety five it'll be round near the elections and er there could be some difficulty. i was hoping there would and i will still hope because there's not for the political reas , i would hope that that the minister would not a u-turn, the chancellor would do a u-turn on this one. because i can, i'm surprised that the tory party's . it'll haunt the tory party for years. it'll be a bigger bone than a bigger bone than ever the poll tax was. now you say well why do a u-turn i see no reason why because they done a few u-turns on the child benefit they done a u-turn, they picked it up and then blocked it. charging pensioners and children for medical prescriptions picked that one up and dropped it like a hot potato and charging for hospital treatment and why so why not do a u-turn on on this one? we must think jim of those people as i said that we are responsible for. our they'll want to forget that the tories programme and policies, they lied about taxes they promised not to extend v a t they lied about protecting the value of pensions well i hope the people who get the eight four p and the one twenty, the one's that the old dears will remember that because that's what they will be getting. that's what they will be getting because i can tell this to the tories, let's be quite honest that with the throw up the the people put their trust in the tories and i don't think they'll ever do it again. i hope that we will, i will debate even in this late hour, it's not too late to debate this very important issue and let the people out there know that we are thinking of them, not just about the things that happened early on today but least that we are responsible enough to dis to discuss this motion and to press and press and press again so the government, hoping the government will do a u- turn, if you don't you'll be gone forever. thank you chairman, i move. have a seconder. seconded seconded mr chairman, reserve me remarks thank you. the serious item of news situ at the moment one day. mr . mr chairman er when we discussed this last time er i expressed the view that in fact er the county council had better things to do i've not changed my mind erm since but i have been reminded that er when er the roman emperors er found ascension in the ranks when roman emperors found ascension in the ranks they provided bread and circuses and i have to say that i regard the two notices of motion which were placed in mr notably fox hunting and this debate on v a t as bread and circuses. it could be that er he wishes to distract attention between the interesting arguments going on about one man one vote which i'm pleased to hear that mr has won. well it is remarkable that it's taken until nineteen ninety two for the labour party to discover that democracy consists in one man one vote rather than somebody holding up holding up a card saying one and a half million votes. and and it is also perhaps distracted er attention from the interesting disagreements also taking place at the labour party conference this week between the one more pushes, if i might describe them and the hard liners who believe you've got to be radical. just wait for it. so having said that i thought that there were more important issues for the council to discuss, i don't think it'd be fair to let this second debate on the subject pass without actually making a few er er a very short erm a few short remarks cos i think we need to be clear about the issues. there is a need to fund the deficit in public expenditure. even that nice mr gordon brown doesn't pretend that a deficit on the public borrowing requirement greater than fifty million is sensible. indeed that nice it's interesting to note that that nice mr gordon brown has just rec has just recently withdrawn labour's promise to link pensions with average earnings. he recognises that there is a funding problem for public expenditure even if labour members in this chamber don't er and in case the erm er liberal group is feeling sanctimonious. they should be aware that mr beat mr brown to the punch and did exactly the same thing a few months ago. there is a serious question as to how reasonably you should fund the deficit and it is all very well to criticise this suggestion as to how the a gap should filled without making any sensible suggestions of your own and mr brown, nice mr brown so far has been singularly silent on the matter. the second fact issued before us and it's one that i referred to er when we did it, debated this last time is that if members do take seriously the whole question of near time of reduction of er emissions then in fact you have got to reduce the consumption of erm hydrocarbons er as interesting as the liberal party has said for years but now er pretends it had nothing to do with erm, er v a t on fuel. one final quick note chairman, there is no point complaining that there has not been a cop copper bottomed guarantee. you're on time at the copper bottom. mr will find out whether or not there is a copper bottomed guarantee when the budget is announced and until then time please until then please mr please. his criticisms are entirely er er surplus to requirements. mr . i didn't mind waiting. alright, well the rest did. we have nine speeches including yourself. on a much more parochial level and i er i have an interest and i am one of these old age pensions that mr is determined to look after. now the system at the moment seems to be er suggested by the government that v a t should go up and those that really need the money will be if not wholly, mainly compensated, they will of course get another rise if the cost of living goes up because their pensions will go up. mr is very different we must all be protected, i've worked out my bill as the same as this year because no way shall i spend seventeen and a half percent more money i shall be as careful as i can and i shan't starve and i shan't get cold now i've worked out that the v a t on my fuel bill is eight hundred and eighty five pounds, i'd delighted if mr could perform the trick and i needn't pay it, on behalf of the duke of westminster, the duke of rutland, i think i can also thank him. this is not er protecting that, no old age pensioner should pay these taxes they should pay the taxes unless they're in need and be adequately taken care of. i must remind you that in europe that marvellous place with the social contract, hasn't prevented everyone paying tax on on fuel. i think in denmark it's twenty percent. somehow we are different. i don't know why we're different except that someone wants to makes some trouble. if we come into line with europe,le europe will soon be putting pressure on us by having a common policy and the policy to save fossil er burning of fossil fuels is international. the liberals said it must be done and done quickly the liberals said it must be done and done quickly, get extra tax on the fossil fuels for the sake of the environment. if you remember you did say that. er it's perf altered a little now because it's not very popular but that's what you've said. and i'm sure you've had a bit of thought about it, i'm glad you're see it there er and the whole lot is a blessed mismatch, it's nothing to do with us though i do thank you mr for the help you wish to give me, the duke of westminster and the duke of rutland if this goes through as i said this today because without a doubt the government will listen to what you have to say and i've no doubt it will be effect. mr thank you mr chairman. there is a sense of er deja vu about all of this isn't there. one seems to have heard it all and i'm sure you've heard before that i've, i've to say. er, i wondered about this erm this tory high flyer, about whom er, my friend over there speaks with such admiration and envy, he must have a tremendous influence because i wonder, had he been the mover behind the fact that this v a t on fuel is is there in every other country in europe including ireland where it's about eleven percent. so this tory high flyer must be a very high flyer indeed. the truth of the matter is this of course, that mr might just as well put here any indirect tax, because that's what it's about. in one sense all indirect taxation is hardly equitable because it falls on the rich and the poor, like the old saying the rain, it raineth every day upon the rich and just and unjust fellow. but more upon the just because the unjust have the just's umbrella but er this happens all the time. so there's no budget in picking out the f fuel for it. you might just as well pick out anything but having done it and taking up, er what mr mentioned, this question i think it was mr , about the deficit. there is a way of course, a classic way in which deficits trad can be absorbed. you do it by having very high inflation. that's all is easy, it swallows up an inflation and in fact all those many years ago when there was a a socialist government seems a long since, like a bad dream now doesn't it, but when there was a socialist government, they did just this. they have high inflation, i might add to you that it had a far far more damaging effect on poor old pensioners, like myself and i'm a war pensioner as well, poor old pensioners t to be serious, old people and people of limited means who are affected far more by the cure, the other cure that the labour party tried that that was high inflation, mind you i'm sure that they tried it, i think it just happened. it does with labour parties thank you thank you very much, er i can't carry along because you want to stop me, but if i were capable of telling, i'd say my attitude is still the same as it was before. i'm glad you didn't mention the bank manager's umbrella. mr mr than thank you chair. very quickly in, what, what can i say, i mean it's an appalling situation where you have a political party that believes that it can solve all the ills of these the country that it has created in the last twelve years, i hope on the explicit though i tend to think renunciations are fairly clear here, but erm i hope you'll listen. that, that they have create these ills in the last decade through this, this increase in indirect taxation. be bec , the appalling thing is that they're quite, they're quite happy to spread this pain on those who are in the least position to burden it and they believe quite rightly and this, this is the i think, that exists between socialism and and and the conservatism in that sense that whereas erm, you know opinion surveys bear out the fact that people are quite happy, those who can afford it to pay a little bit extra in terms of direct taxation for those service provisions, which are absolutely vital and these surveys have been conducted in public and they have been made quite er er open to the press, er, just before the last election particularly for the health authority and so forth. but i mean these, these surveys have indicated that the general public is quite prepared to give that little bit extra through direct t , through direct taxation, well listen, you you guys can't speak much after all there's only thirty one of you and there's thirty seven of us here let's face it. er, but the interesting, the interesting thing is that they are prepared to pay and yet this obsession this obsession with this ideology that the only way you can get you can go forward in in terms of er placing this this country in any economic status in the way it may have been and er is is to privatisation of v a t. chairman i look forward to the day when when the very air and this has been said for that we breathe will either be privatised or more important they'll stick a bloody v a t on it. but it, isn't it an awful situation when you, when you, when you look at it that evidence indicates that the erm the number of people that are either now elderly infirm or sick and and clearly that they all will have to face this, this, this terrible burden and i cannot understand because there is, this, there is, there is er a total disarray within the conservative party, that all their er er back bench er mp s are making representations to their erm their leader who possibly may not be a leader tomorrow but as long as he's the leader today, john major that he should do a rethink and here they are er you know, members of the same party, continuing to support something which is so idiosyncratic that you know it's really beyond belief, er chairman. not idiosyncratic. i think, well, clearly those people those people who have er those who have some notion of decency and particularly even taking into account the mixed economy that we need to work in will support er the notion that those people who cannot burden this kind of tax should not have to er er should not have to partake. in actual fact it was mentioned earlier that v a t er could be imposed on fossil fuel but i think any administration . could clearly make some kind of differentiation between a conglomerate paying v a t or some such tax whereas er the exception could be made to those people who are not clearly in a position to make er er to say that. ch chairman i hope that the motion will get full support. thank you. er is there a in the house? i, here he is. mr chairman ladies and gentlemen, how's that. i wanted to say a word, i know you don't want me to. . thank you, yes they should be but stand up and i'm only trying to help in the situation. mr you'll spoi you'll spoil us when i saw this tonight i thought we i gotta say something because martin is coming up with the er same motion as it was last time, it was not much different so probably with the same reply's gotta be made and that is that the labour party is not the caring party, everyone here, i'm sure the liberals as well as the conservatives care we are a caring party as much as you are and we are concerned, we are concerned about, we are concerned about the old people and the people that are, are living on low incomes. i am an old age pensioner, you wouldn't believe that would you? i've struggled i know what it's like to struggle to pay . here, here. thank you. you may think i'm joking i don't go abroad for my holidays, i go to norfolk. i can't afford to go on foreign holidays. anyway, the point is this that i am going to say as far as i'm concerned i'm gonna put all my maximum ability in making sure that this government stands by its obligation which it gave me when i wrote to the prime minister because i was very very concerned that i did not want to see the old people and pensioners who was having difficulty in making ends meet, suffer further and therefore i am with you when it comes to concerning yourself in relation to the o a p's or the pensioners or any one who is suffering because of the s seventeen and o half percent, the maximum is put on. so, i am looking after their interests. i don't need the chief executive to tell me what's happening because i'm going to be involved in seeing what's happening and as far as the labour people talking about the cost it's going to create. you never said that when you were creating the cost, the cost of living which was inflation was soaring up to thirty percent, twice as much as what this bloody v a t will introduce. you were condemned of people then you couldn't care a damn about it cos you couldn't do anything about it because your methods of running a country was a waste of time. er, so as far as i'm concerned and i'm sure as far as you're concerned, we are battling this together. we maybe on different sides, but we want to make sure that the o a p s and the people that do have to er er present th pay these bills, i mean if you consider if you think of calor, calor gas, calor gas, the way that i actually heat my i pay v a t on that, calor gas is is is v a t ed now, as far as conservatives are concerned, i speak myself and i'm sure everyone here would offer the same sympathy as the the government has promised that they will do something about this. i promise that i will look into it and can i, can report back to you if you wish me to when it comes out. doctor thank you very much mr chairman. it's qu , it's quite. can we just quieten down a bit please. thank you. it's quite interesting that er two members of the conservative party have referred to these very high rates of inflation er that happened under a labour government er because they, the, the reason they occurred primarily, if you remember is because in nineteen seventy two oil, oil was three dollars a barrel. in nineteen seventy three it went up to fifteen dollars a barrel and in nineteen seventy nine it went up to thirty dollars a barrel. now that was. doing something else when i'm doing my own work. okay in the easter holidays okay now we have like twenty five a test and then these must be another test for another group. okay what do you think of these words? erm some are could you quite easy okay so some are quite easy some of them you're not going to have much problem with at all. you mhm. already know them or you could have a good guess at them. erm it may be some will be not so easy need a bit more work and some of them'll be sort of in the middle. yeah. in between. so which are they easy ones? the easy ones are erm use puppy key desk kept use used. yeah. okay so you could do all of those you don't even have to bother learning them. erm what about things like ox and oxen? i erm bit of an odd word isn't it? mm. you don't have you seen an ox? no. no you don't you see them in films about africa or something or i you don't. i've never heard of one. it's like a big cow. oh. an ox is just like a cow. oh. just a another name for a cow really. oh. so once you know what it means it helps a little bit and can you think of a word that ends the same as that? erm no. what would you keep things in? box. okay. can you spell box? mhm. you can spell box, you can spell ox. yeah? no problem it's just g it's a bit funny if there's more than one of them if you get two or three you don't say two ox if you had two or three boxes fine but with ox it's one of these silly words you just have to remember it's oxen. i don't i mean you're not going to write about oxen very often are you? no. no so just try and try and learn them . one of those well like a cow oh. ox is a cow oxen two cows two oh. oxes if you like only you say oxen . mm. okay? so just learn that to and er keep them happy. right. you won't use it very often. some of these words you're much more likely to use aren't you. yeah sale. can you spell sale? is there another way you can spell sale? like sail on a boat or right and how do you spell that? erm well have a go at the first letter. s. right okay. and then it's not spelt the same way as this when it's on a boat mm. is it? do you know how to spell tail? how do you spell that? t a e l. see there's t a l e oh. like telling a tale. mm. and what would a dog's tail how would that be spelt? t a e l t a e l? t a i l. oh i l. erm do you know how to spell snail? mm s n a e l. right okay it's not actually e l it's i l i l but the same as you're getting in a lot of them you're you're tending to think that a lot of them end in mm. a e l. now that ail sound that a sound it's usually either it'll be a l e or it'll be a i l. so you've only got a choice of two there. it's not spelling's a bit messy isn't it. it's mm. there doesn't seem to be any sense to it really but you can try and make a bit of sense out of some of it not all of it but some of it you can make a bit of sense out of it yes. whoops . let's see how many words you can think of that have an ail sound in them. a ail like sail sail okay so we've got sail that's on a boat and this sale like your mum's going to go to the sales and see if mhm. they've got any good bargains. mm. yeah erm any others? what was the one that we had that the dog would have? mm tail. tail. it's a bit ridiculous really having the two ways of spelling mm. that's a tale for someone who tells tales. seal. seal that doesn't make an a sound that's making an oh no. e sound isn't it yeah it's an e. so that's a different sound but that's a good one. we had snail earlier how did you spell that? s n a i l i l yes okay. i thought it was . i don't think there are any that are a that are a e l. we've got the e a l ones like seal which you said mm. squeal plea. erm so that's snail now what o what else could we have what letters could we start with? erm fail. mm. okay have a guess at that i'm going to put under this column so have guess how to spell it? yeah. a f a right f a e or i l . i that's it i l fail. okay erm do you know a nursery rhyme about jack and jill? no. no went up the hill where jack and jill fell off the hill to to fetch a pail of water. how do you spell pail? p a i l. that's it p a i l when it means a bucket. mm. they went to get a bucket of water or if i said, ooh you're not looking too pale. you're looking yeah how would you spell that? i'm going to put it under p this column. a yeah. l e. that's it brilliant. so you're spotting that pattern. so there is some pattern in this spelling it's awkward it's not as trouble is english is mixed up with bits of all sort of other languages over hundreds of thousands of years. and they've all taken words from different languages and they all spell them different ways. but some of them have got patterns to them and you work them out. pale erm what else can you think of? how about what's the american word for post they don't say oh we'll put it in the post they say we'll put it in the? mail. in the mail. and that's m a i l. are you male or female? male. male how do you spell that one? goes in this oh column. m a l e. that's it m a l e so it's perhaps not a bad idea that we spell it differently cos you can tell which one you're talking about then. whether you're talking about the mail the royal mail the post or whether you're mm. talking about somebody being a man or a boy or something okay. any other that have got ail in them? how about ale? hello. hiya, sorry about that, just feeding oh that's alright the baby. yeah i'm did you get your books out to show you what what he's been using . y yes we're just we're just having a look at the the spellings at the moment trying to make some sense of them. oh right oh is that your homework for the holidays right. but we're not all the homework we're just trying to find some pattern in the spelling. okay then. and see how we get on that. i'm sorry i was late getting but i got held up by another lesson. oh right . very hectic at the moment it's should've normally been dropping off quite a lot this time but oh right. everybody wants extra lessons for some reason . oh right i i was just thinking of sort of trying to you know cos he's in his second year now for the mhm. next two years trying to sort of get him to bring himself up a bit you know mm. possibly for going into another school. they automatically go into s f x but apparently there's two different streams there yeah. and i mean i'd love the bluecoat but i mean you've got to be pretty clever for that. but you never you never know . well he'll have to work very he'll have to do a lot of work mm. erm if you want to get into the bluecoat. mm. erm it's up to you how much whether but there's a few good schools isn't there. you can get interested in it. mm. mm there are there are quite a few good schools actually around . right. erm saint edward's is good or was wasn't it . well i'm i'm a bit biased cos i went there so oh did you? but it is t it is erm very good they've got a very long waiting list i was helping helping someone with an entrance exam for there and it's very very stiff competition is it yeah. their exam is more or less g c s e for eleven year olds you know really? they have to be very good just to get in yeah. so oh well we'll have to wait and see. do you recognize any of those books are they the sort of normal yes there all sort of fairly standard that they're using mm. but it's erm not so much what's in the books as sort of how simon looks at them. and because if you're just looking at every word separately everything lo you've got to learn so many things haven't you if you can pot the patterns and then you can start having a a guess at what it might be and getting it right most of the time and then you gradually learn them as you go along. you can't you can't be expected to learn everything all at once can you? mm. you've got to people tend to forget that erm things you find easy before you knew how to do them you found them quite hard yeah of course. and you were probably quite confused and didn't mm. know what was going on until you got it sorted out. right. and got yourself a system and started building on it. this is it yeah. until it just seems as if it's an impossible task yeah. there's just too much to learn. so you've mm. got to break it down into little steps and do a bit at a time yeah. and get a a gradual improvement. and another i noticed erm simon's been bringing a few of his friends home from school and erm i mean he's in a class of thirty eight right. i mean which is the norm now more or less isn't it but he's i think the third youngest in his class too most of his friends that he brings home are all nine already . right he's actually not nine till august so he's one of the young ones in the class mhm. i mean that can have that can sort of yeah so you know contribute isn't it yeah . yeah it's more difficult to keep up with others if they if they're older and they've been learning this stuff for a lot longer yeah. but erm i think he he'll do it alright he'll be able to sort this out. shall i make you a drink would you like a tea or coffee ? erm er black coffee please black coffee. no no milk no sugar. that'd be wonderful. right. do you want some er juice simon? er n no thank you. no juice do you know how to spell juice? mm j double o sounds as if it should be double o it's it's j u i c e oh. actually. one way you can is that a juice bottle over there? well yeah but i mean i've like you know ones and two and that into it. mhm. and i add them to me colle collection of ones and twos. okay but you can learn quite a bit you could check any of the food or the drinks that you've got in the house you could at those to see how you spell them can't you. so you could look on the juice bottle and juice there you think, oh that's how you spell it. do watch out cos sometimes they put silly spellings on which doesn't help. . okay what else can you think of any more on that erm erm no well we could do female couldn't we. yeah. have a go at that. female? oh that's just the same with on . f e and it's just the same. yeah m that's it just f e on the front male. so that's female quite a quite a good word to be able to spell isn't it. especially at your age. mm. erm how about erm when it's great big little lumps of ice falling down what do you call that ends in ail? erm erm erm have you heard of hail stones. oh yeah erm when it hurts your legs . when it's hail. right hail how do you spell hail? h a right. i l. that's it hail. okay so there's quite quite a few of these that you're getting to know. mm. mm. that's hail. that's lovely okay. now any any others that you can think of? pail yeah we've done that one . pail good we've got that. thanks very much. there you go son er where do you go if you go to court and they find you guilty?and they lock you up. oh jail. how do you spell that? erm j okay. a i l. that's it. so quite a lot of these you know don't you. erm what do trains run on? railway lines. railway lines okay how do you spell rail? i'll leave you two with them if you need me right okay. i'm just in the next room. right. r r a i l. that's it. r a i l. so there's quite a few of these that you know as long as you can forget about this thing of wanting to put a e l. mm. i mean it sounds like maybe it should be that way but we don't spell it like we have the i a l or a l e. male and sale and sail. you can bet your bottom dollar some teams would go bananas on that! yeah. not half! for the old ain't it? it's is it? hey! watch this! standards wha , we used to have standards. oh yeah! mhm. that's not bad! yeah. oh that's nice isn't it? . ha! oh a humber a humber oh yeah! that's like a porsche. oh look at the old indicators! .moggy minor did that to me! yeah got a little pink aren't they? yeah. must be one of the first ones out. mm. so didn't have no indicators on its side, just one of the things popped up! don't you remember, oh no you don't. no, i don't i was sort of driving along, what? damn thing's slowing down! i was looking for this blooming half thing sticking out! ha! they stopped them about nineteen fifty nine, something like that. he's driving around without his glasses on! why isn't he tested? fancy having a car for that many years! yeah. he will though, he'll get more now than what he's paid for it ! yeah. japanese cars, you can stick them! cheap cars expensive to repair! they are yeah! well i'm pleased with my citreon. yeah? the only thing i don't like about it is the fact that it's not a a three litre engine. oh! but er it does everything i want it to. can't wait to get that sierra! yeah, you've done well with that. yeah. ay? yeah, i think he's getting a bit attached to it. you sure . i watched that once. mind you, it's only five minutes though innit ? ha? we watched it once didn't we? it was on before and i didn't find it very funny at all! no. got that black yeah. i just never watched it. no, it's not worth watching! was it, didn't we? the first one weren't yeah. it? yes. load of rubbish it were! yeah. watched it for about ten minutes never laughed once! but half of it you couldn't understand could you? cos they were going off in their like their lingo yeah. and he talks like that and sh what the hell are they saying! watched for about ten minutes and turn it over! stuff this! yeah. yeah, it's erm black boy. oh! you alright muncher? yeah. nice it was. always liked food actually it's not very nice! i gave him a pizza and then he . didn't you? still eat it! don't you? you alright ? yeah i'm alright.. no, i guess not. no. yeah, he was upside down this morning! weren't he?the wrong way round in his cot this morning! was he? yeah. dunno how he does it. sleeps on his front now and sleeps all along all ways! yeah. he does. that rimmer character's changed a bit. what one? the one with a h on his head. he's a hologram. oh! if he's a hologram machine he shouldn't need to eat. if he's a hologram he shouldn't need to eat things. where are they then? where's fun in the sun? today? dunno. er ah excuse me! . oh i've got a right pair here! i really have! things like that they ought to put you in a room together,you'd be fine wouldn't you ! yeah. oh! ha! da da da da da da da da . bash! bash! bash! oh i didn't get up to him. no. not with the bashing. have you looked at him this morning? no. no. well he, stayed like that. head on the head on the mattress and duvet over him! yeah? mm. he takes it with him now, so it's probably good idea actually, take the blanket off. yeah. just carry the duvet with him it's a good idea! warmer now innit? yeah. he was warm before, probably a bit too warm. yeah. shall we go upstairs? mhm. how long's it been since you went to sainsbury's? couple of weeks. get it on did we? that thing's an old one. still sixty pound? yeah. go away! erm give me the tin . that can be last. same day as the hoover weren't it? yeah. twenty ninth of er february. oh! oh, that's nearly a month! get them. isn't it? how much was it then? twenty nine ninety five. it was ninety pounds wasn't it, in sainsbury's? we got the hoover on the twenty ninth of last month? yeah. is that awful? that one's . you look it's got his dungarees on here and a little girl's wearing them! ! there! oh yeah! oh,for a boy or a girl. oh you're not stupid! you ought to go in and have a look, you know, cos like love that ! lovely! really is! really reasonable prices! the only time i can go is a saturday afternoon, but i'm busy this saturday afternoon. yeah. they got some little shorts, i think i'm gonna get him some. there's a pair of navy, and a navy striped shorts. yeah. i thought well they'd do for him for summer. yeah, would do. yeah, so gotta do like ju just shorts and a t-shirt to match, and a short and top. yeah. about six quid i think. no. about six quid? for a t-shirt and shorts. oh, oh that's not bad. yeah. three quid a piece. yeah. even so, my bloody shorts are cheaper than that! well yeah, i know. five bloody bucks mine were! australia, when you look at clothes! i mean, that sweatshirt i bought, how much would that be? worked out about two fifty? yeah. it was four dollars ninety nine wasn't it? that's right yeah. damn sight cheaper over there live! like yesterday, i bought that fruit bought the bread that was fiver! that's where my money goes! i know. yeah well, i think it goes. yeah, oh yeah! mind you, i did buy a fair bit of vegetables. yeah, that's nothing! go. if we have vegetables every day, how long would that last? oh that's a week, and that's it! ridiculous! that's why we gonna ha , have to buy our own no, grow our own. grow our own. help us out just a wee bit. you can freeze it and all. buy stuff that we can freeze. you can freeze most vegetables. can you freeze cauli's? yeah. oh , them cauli's were brilliant, those were! yeah and they used to blanch them first. most vegetables you have to blanch first. how do you blanch them? just put them in boiling water for about thirty seconds. yeah? yeah, so it's no problem. that garden's gonna be mostly vegetables. i tell you! yeah, i three pound ten pence or something in the vegetable shop that was er two pound forty for a cauli cabbage and er carrots. that's all i bought weren't it? that's two pound forty! that's a lot of money! yeah. yeah, a cauli was about sixty p! a cauliflower. i know it's a big one. it's not fair! really. it's a big one. fifty eight, i think it were. the cabbage was about the same er, about fifty i think. the carrots a couple of pound there, they were expensive! about a quid i think they cost! that was expensive! yeah well they're bigger carrots. must be a couple of pound for them. mm. look at the size of these! aha! well! i can't out, out the money out of t s b. . for when? today. on what? toilet rolls. getting tha , bit bad are we? there's none left! got one upstairs. yeah. but i need to make three pound, cos i owe anne a bit of money don't i? how much do you owe her? the lemonade er pay the milk man. i'll tell him to come back next week. tell him to come back next week. so why can't i have the money? mm? you can take it out of my wages! cos i don't want to go into the t s b! why? well, i'm trying to clear it! yeah well i'll give you th , you can take the money out of the money you're gonna give me next week. if you're gonna give me any money are you? don't know! and you can do it tha , when i get my family allowance, you can have that! my dole cheque as well! alright! alright, you had your moan at me last time melvin the pure fact that i hadn't put the money in yeah, i know! to help! i know! otherwise i'd have some money now, wouldn't i? gave you fifty quid! i know, that's for peter! wasn't it? ha ! thank you! should of , i know i should of done! you did some of it. yeah i know! but i shouldn't done! i know! if you'd of left that fiver here, you would of had enough money for the milk! yeah, but i wouldn't of had enough money for anne! oh ha ! would i? no. so how much did you spend saturday night? i dunno! you spent ten pound on your home brew. yeah. we owe you money for sa , saturday night, that's alright. yeah, that was out of the cash money i had! yeah, so thirty for cash money, i had to extra cash money! i had fifty quid! yeah, twenty quid, and what was that for, for bloody wallpaper! not all of it! most of it! stop arguing will you! well, it's the way you, don't want me to have any money! moan, moan, moan! well you can have the money when you want, i can't! i don't have money every time i want it! all my bloody money! you everybody else ! where do you think my money goes? you spend the lot on yourself ! like what? like saturday, you were out boozing! that's alright! piss that up the wall! you can spend as much as you like to do that! go out once in a while do i? it's still the same melvin ! i see you alright, you know that! alright, you can have fucking newspaper to wipe your arse with! you can! i wouldn't mind if i went out and spent it on myself, but i didn't! i don't spend everything single thing on myself! i'm not saying you do, but i haven't spent a penny on myself! it's all fo food or peter or the house or something else! how do you think i feel when i bring home three hundred a twenty quid a week, and all of it goes on fucking bills! but it doesn't all go on bills though does it? most of it does! well you know that! you took the responsibility on . yes i know i've got the responsibility, but i'm not moaning about it! aha! not many! yeah, i don't when we have to pay fifty pound a month poll tax! got a fifty odd pound electric bill! what do you mean, you sit there and that's all i get for about two hours is a load of bloody shit that you go work, you do this to spend it all on bills! gotta pay it! oh shi , oh well just go and then you won't have to pay, you wouldn't have the bloody worry of it would you? if i could go to bloody work, i would! anyway, you know where the card is! i don't know where the card is! nor do i! it's up there then. no, i'm not gonna go and get any money! wouldn't dare! it's not up there! it's not! no, looks like it's missing. it's your fault! why is it my fault? you were the last to have it! oh dear! you did! come on, just get something out! get something out! i'll take you back home again thank you. if you don't behave! here's one, here you are, look, you play with these. here are ben! oh you like them! ben! you can have one. oi! don't be a pain in the neck,! that urgh! you're not having, you're not having this out ben! go and play with something there. makes me laugh is, that you get all these toys for children, sort of, nought to three months and erm, i mean his cousins, what are they, five and six? and they'll sit and they'll play for hours with them! and they're kids toys! come on then! sho , show her that bed show her your bedroom ay? come here! you going . no. oh you got one, i had one of those, exactly the same! what the doll? yeah! i broke it, and john had it for years and years . well i got it, i just bought it back when we went to russia. i dunno where my came from! i know a relative . yeah, got it from russia though. i told them that the rain comes in and everything! so they shut up! they come and planed some more off! and now there's su , there's such a gap a blooming draft comes in hello! and ! i had to throw throw a bucket of water at the door to show them. yeah. i stood there with a mop at the side, and he sort of looked at me and all the water the came in! i said there you are, you see! oh i don't mind, yeah but . on ours, we got plastic there i just got yeyyyy ! can't mummy ! mummy ! ah ! don't put them down. yeah. so the painting outside,. you know, it's all too much! down there down . and all round there, there! wants it! wants it! terrible!. mm no doubt we'll see! yeah, there's lots which is up there. and then . very hard work isn't it? this could be is it, meals on wheels? all you gotta do is turn the oven on to heat the meals up. have you heard of that? all clean! they've been trying to get him out for years and years! honestly! and then he got so bad, that he had to go in for . yeah. do you take sugar? it is a mixture really! no thank you. i don't know why they don't clear out all the very old ones and then put some people in there! they've tried! they try and prolong this for ages! there's . there's a woman down there she's got a, this two bedroom place her son's gone to canada. he only found out he had few months to live! two months later he died! he was riddled with it! he went they will need teachers' and if you can bear that one in mind. erm i've got an information pack here which i'll hand out at the end of the session and it's got sort of four fairly erm useful leaflets in it. one's a general superannuation. er there's one that talks about about age inherited benefits. and one that talks about pensions and other dependants and then there's a leaflet erm which gives you certain facts about re-employment after retirement. if you'd like to take those away with you will actually erm reinforce some of the things that i'm going to say during the next hour. so as far as the actual topics i'm going to cover are concerned, erm can everybody see . turn the lights off shall we? erm talking about the various types of pension that are available under the teachers' scheme. erm a little bit about contributions and additional contributions and the actual benefits that are available and . could i ask that we take any questions at the end of session. so the actual types of pension and the applications of them. er there's normal age retirement, premature retirement, and and premature retirement with redundancy two or three really you know can go together. and then there is the infirmity pension. as far as the normal age retirement goes. erm this is available to teachers and lecturers erm at the age of sixty. because you can remain in service until the age of sixty five, if you so choose erm and draw your pension, you do actually have to apply for normal age retirement. er because if you don't actually make out formal applications, you know come your retirement nothing will happen. it's not actually automatic because you can stay in for those extra up up to five years if you so choose. erm the actual there's a pension and a lump sum payable and this is based on your total amount of pensionable service. that's really service on which teaching service on which you have paid contributions. it also includes erm reckonable service which is is service other than teaching that you may have transferred into the scheme. so things like erm service from another superannuation scheme or if somebody's been paying you know extra contributions to actually boost your pension lump sum, that is actually reckonable service. but it all counts at the end of the day in in calculating your pension and lump sum. erm so to actually make application for the pension you need to apply to the education personnel group erm and you'll need a an application form fourteen a pen. once you actually receive a copy of this it's in two parts. the first part you need to complete, part a and this has got your personal details bank details it asks about your family details for family benefits and it asks if you are in receipt of any other oth other pensions . erm asks for an indication of whether you are likely to be taking up teaching service after retirement. and and having completed that, you send it back to the personnel group at county hall. we will then complete part b which gives the teachers pensions agency details of your actual service and salary since the last annual return. that's an exercise that we complete each year actually updating the teachers pensions agency of your particular service details. so we complete that information, er tell them when you are actually finishing teaching er i e the last day you'll actually be, your last day of actual teaching and the last day to which salary will be paid. and we then return that to the teachers pensions agency in darlington. as far as these forms are concerned erm it it's best to complete them about four months before your actual retirement date. er in the summer term particularly, at the end of the summer term those retirements thirty first of august because as you can appreciate they are sort of inundated applications at the end of the academic year. so you know the sooner it can be sort of processed, the sooner they can actually get working on it. the d e s actually calculate your pension, they authorize payments by the paymaster general's office and er notify notify you of your actual benefits that are due. usually about two to three weeks before the actual time and date. that's normal age retirement. er premature retirement. this is available to people age fifty or over with the er necessary amount of qualifying service which is generally two years. erm and it's available to those people whose employment ceases in the interest of the functions. again there's a pension and a lump sum payable and there is also the possibility of enhancement. the enhancement is entirely discretionary. if erm if there is enhancement payable erm that part of the pension will ultimately be paid by county council by the county council. so it will be quite separate from the amounts of money that you are receiving from the erm paymaster general's office. applications for premature retirement erm they're dealt with slightly differently in the sense that once an application's actually approved, you will be issued with this with this form or a similar form to this one. so if somebody is offered premature retirement and they accept the offer, that form's automatically sent to you you don't actually need to apply. and that's really because it's it's erm you know it's for people under the age of of sixty. the redundancy erm if somebody leaves under redundancy situation then there is an additional payment of redundancy payment payable. erm again for those people have to be ov over fifty years of age and we operate in the maximum enhancement er provision. which can be up to ten years, providing that doesn't take your service over forty years at the age of sixty or over what you would have attained had you remained in service until the age of sixty five. ten years enhancement in redundancy cases. erm and the difference between premature retirement and redundancy basically is you do receive this additional one off redundancy payment. that's a tax free payment . in erm these are available to teachers who are under the age of sixty whose erm . to the extent that they can no longer satisfactorily perform their duties. erm if anybody is actually interested in could i actually refer you to somebody in the personnel group erm lynne . lynne can actually give you you know more detailed information on infirmity allowances. basically you do see enhancement in these cases. erm it's an automatic enhancement and it depends on your actual length of service and you know when you actually apply for the for the infirmity allowance. so it does vary generally speaking it tends to be six and two third years. and again there is a lump sum and er an annual pension payable. but they they are for for teachers under the age of sixty. any questions at that point? you said that er the redundancy payment was non taxable which i'm delighted to hear. er what about the lump sum, do we pay tax on that? no the lump sum is also tax free. if you're wanting to take er early retirement and erm you're wanting enhancement say you retire at fifty nine and you want some enhancement, can you ask for enhancement sort of up to sixty five or has it only got to be up to sixty? up to sixty. sixty. anything else?erm contributions and additional contributions. you you actually contribute six percent of your salary and you know that's that's the sort of basic contribution. er the pay eight point nought five percent so that's a total contribution of fourteen point o five percent to the er scheme. the index linking of teachers' pensions is actually that's actually met by the government and not the teachers' superannuation fund. you can there are various ways of actually increasing erm your pension by paying additional contributions. erm you know if you are short on service or you actually want to top up erm your total pension for service at the end of the day. and there are basically three ways of doing it. erm there's a . there are additional contributions with the prudential and you could if you if you wanted you could also pay free standing a b cs through erm a company of your own choosing. in total you cannot actually pay more than fifteen percent of salary to erm these well to contributions so in effect you you're already paying six percent as your basic contribution so the maximum you could pay on any of these schemes is a further nine percent. erm but you know they are the actual inland revenue . as far as years are concerned erm it's actually a scheme which allows you to gaps in your career. it's quite a costly scheme because you're actually paying both the employer's and the employee's contributions. erm but if somebody has had a gap for whatever reason, it is often the only method of actually covering it if you want to do something that involves the teachers' superannuation scheme. and the cost of what you're actually buying back, the service you're buying back is basically governed by your age and your salary and the amount of time you want to buy back. and there are various methods of actually erm paying these contributions. by monthly instalments or by lump sums. erm anybody who's who's interested erm if you'd like to ask for a leaflet aft at the end of the session because the main thing is that you do have to take advantage of this while you are still employed in reckonable service. erm so you have to do something now before you actually retire. having bought back the service then erm that is what i referred to earlier as reckonable service. you to buy back however many years you buy back will count in your pension and lump sum calculation at the end of the day. something that's not actually mention there is withdrawn contributions. if i can just briefly mention them. erm first of june nineteen seventy three, can actually be repaid providing you are still in service. erm and the amount that you repay is the amount that you withdrew er plus compound interest at three percent per annum, so it's actually a much cheaper method covering covering that service. but it's only available if your contributions were withdrawn before the first of june nineteen seventy three. has anybody actually taken advantage of that? yeah i mean what you actually well you'll find that what you repay erm you know that the benefits you receive in your pension lump sum will far outweigh the cost of repaying those contributions. so if anybody you know did that and hasn't yet repaid them i would strongly advise you to do that. but it's only available for contributions that were withdrawn before the first of june nineteen seventy three and you know if you didn't meet that particular date then the only other way of of covering gaps is which is far more expensive. erm it actually talks in this fourteen a pen makes reference to the fact that the approximate cost of one year to buy it back it would add twenty under a years arrangement. twenty percent of your current salary. additional voluntary contributions with prudential erm since about nineteen eighty eight the prudential erm entered into a scheme with the teachers pensions agency er whereby you can actually er pay additional contributions to the prudential. they invest them in various ways and at the end of the day you can use that erm policy to actually top up your pension or provide for increased family benefits and because it's a the administration costs er costs are sort of less than than you get with erm you know sort of taking out a policy with an individual company, on a one off basis. so it's erm the deductions are actually made from you know through the county council payroll er each month. and you receive an annual statement erm and at the end of ea end of period or when you a are actually retiring then you will be contacted and you'll receive you know sort of guidance on how to that money. circumstances at the time. the third option of paying extra contributions is free standing a b cs. erm you know that's that's taking out er a private policy. a policy with the sort of company of your own choosing. erm which er the teachers pensions agency or the county council will have no involvement in at all. entirely up to yourself to actually make provision to erm increase you know your own pension. if anybody does want further information on a b cs erm in the booklet in the information pack, the your pension booklet, it's it's actually handled through the prudential the office in reading but there is the address is given in booklet. any questions about yes i have got one. w with regard to the a b c erm conflicting advice from two sources. erm the gist of it is that the money from the a b c er i you're not allowed to go over your forty eightieths of your pension with it. now i is that right or wrong? it's probably right but it doesn't actually count in that calculation it's something quite separate. you know the money that that you're paying in a b cs isn't classed at the end of the day as erm reckonable service. it's a separate facility. yeah. so but the money coming in from that a b c erm it was somebody from grimsby who got into terrible trouble not not problems really with the t p a. erm having made these contributions erm he got a note to the effect from the t p a that erm some of the money that he paid in to the a b c had to be repaid to him as a lump sum because the money coming from that sum would have taken his pension over the forty eightieths. and the t p a for some reason weren't very happy about this so they re actually returned a lump sum to him. yes yes. so he paid the a b c, went early as a result of ill health er but got a lump sum back cos he wasn't allowed to go across this. now from the prudential erm an entirely different picture. you know you're allowed to go up to nine percent as you say and you just pay as many years as you like. mm. i mean we don't actually get that involved apart from the fact that we did originally have a leaflet. i know actually only prudential they are leading a campaign round schools i believe erm you know trying to get more teachers interested in a b cs. erm but i mean we do have erm a session with them and and really all the information we gave was very sort of basic understanding. i think that one would probably need to be clarified directly with them okay yeah thank you very much. may i say sandra i think this is probably an inland revenue ruling. yeah. because when the when all these schemes are set up they're only by agreement with the inland revenue and the forty eight year element will be one of the essential yeah. points of agreement. and although they're the a b cs are with a separate body you're still working within your scheme. right. so you're i'm i feel sure that it it is so. that you're limited to forty eightieths. or if you're with another body that's agreed er seventy five er eightieths or whatever yeah then you would be limited to that . you've actually got somebody form the inland revenue haven't you? yes. during the next three days. right. well i am here yes but er er not an expert. no i think it is the basic part of he agreement setting up the original superannuation scheme. that all cont all er payments would be limited to forty eightieths. although i've never i've not met this element before it's rather interesting. i was not aware that they were . they needed to refund a b cs. er i think my wife would like to take advantage of er buying back the service of the earliest before nineteen seventy three. right. to whom would you apply? she would need to contact the teachers pensions agency right. in darlington. and yeah how the address is the back of can you make erm a b c contributions for past years? well i suppose you could erm i suspect it would be cheaper than but it wouldn't actually increase your pension per se at the end of the day because it's as i said it's a separate you know it's a separate sort of erm income to your pension lump sum. yeah. but i mean if you had a gap you i suppose you could probably compare the the difference between and a b cs. haven't got any but i understand there are tax advantages well yeah the tax is erm deducted at source if you like you know before this is as opposed to a lump sum. yeah. yes. because if you pay i think you'd really have to you'd probably need to look at the booklet and then speak to erm one of the prudential people about you know the amount of time you were considering paying contributions and the probably just weigh up the benefits of of each scheme. right. the tax advantage is that if it's a b cs by deduction you get tax relief, if it's by lump sum you don't. anything else?erm the actual pension benefits that are payable. as i said earlier the the pension is based on your total amount of pensionable service and that's teaching service on which you paid contributions. so erm if you haven't opted out of the scheme er full time service, part time service if a teacher had elected to the part time scheme, and a supply supply teacher if a teacher had elected to the part time scheme. erm and any other service reckonable service that counts in that calculation. er for example erm any service that has been transferred in from another scheme. you know if you were previously in the civil service or some other private scheme which is transferable into the teachers' scheme. that all counts at the end of the day in your pension and lump sum calculation. er normally as i said earlier payable at the age of sixty erm and the benefits are based on average salary which is the best three hundred and sixty five days out of the last ten ninety five so it's the best year out of the last three years salary. for the average salary. erm time of your actual service and all of your service is aggregated over you know over your career. so if you do have some breaks erm subsequent service is added on to that. so at the end of the day you'll get a total amount of er years and days times the average salary and that divided by eighty. in your lump sum you've normally er three times the pension. where it will differ is if anybody has any service before the thirtieth of september nineteen fifty six for that part of the lump sum the calculation is based on erm is based on a sorry oh one thirtieth of each year. sorry about that. erm whereas under this post thirty nine sixty six service is based on three eightieths of each year. so it does make a slight difference to the erm the lump sum. but generally speaking it's three times the pension. the lump sum is a tax free payment. the erm pension is taxable as earned income. any absences that you've had erm for sickness full or half pay actually count in full for in these calculations as do erm any maternity leave absence you know providing you were actually receiving pay that's half pay or more then those absences count as if they haven't actually occurred. that's just an illustration. erm thirty three years and a hundred and fifty days service. you know are worked through and and in that particular case all the service is actually september ninety fifty six. and you actually find the lump sum is times the annual pension. the pensions are actually paid monthly and the payment date actually coincides with the day of the month in which you're actually born. and the lump sum will be paid immediately after you finish teaching. so for example if you finish on the thirty first of august, on the first of september the lump sum should be paid into your account. and the same would actually apply to the erm redundancy payment. when the pension starts when the pension starts. when does it start? i heard you mention the day you were yeah that's when it's actually paid. the actual payment date. so i mean if you were to finish on the thirty first of august then on the first of september. but if you for example you're born on the sixteenth of the month then that's generally when it would be paid on the sixteenth. the actual monthly pension the the lump sum would be paid on the first of september. the enhancement from the does that no in the case of a premature retirement where there is enhancement erm that's actually payable on the last banking day of the month so that will tend to be anything from the twenty eighth to the thirty first. so that's that's always at the end of the month. you may obviously you're going to have two payments coming in but you may well find that you know they're no longer on the same sort of day. so the lump that you take the lum the the part of the enhancement that is the lump sum yes. that will from the authority the part that the authority pay, when is that when will that be paid in? you've said that the erm pension t p a will pay the the large part on the first of september got that. now when will the part that the authority pay for the lump sum come in, will that be at the end of august or the beginning of sept or the end of september . it should be at the beginning of september. right. so it should come at the same it should be time as the other one. yes. right. but the the pension itself at the end of the month the the the authorities part will come at the end of the month and the t p s will come on the your birthday. that's right. birthday date. yeah. yeah got you. thank you. erm about income tax are they all taxed at source or do we have to do that separately. i think they're actually taxed at source. but the the payments sorry i wasn't i was just thinking. right. yes they're dealt with same way there's hardly any break between payment of salaries and onto superannuation. there's usually a change of paying departments not always but you'll find no no break apart from er the lessening of income. entirely as as you mentioned it's regarded as earned income. so it's it's taxed at source. at yes in the same way as salary. as your salary is. yes. thank you. yes. can i ask erm the the authority bit of early retirement what happens if erm the county is disbanded under local er government reorganization which is a distinct possibility? do do the other authorities pick up that automatically? i don't know what would happen. the answer must be that somebody will pay. well presumably it's called the unitary authority the new one would be and i think suggestion is that the city would go separate as opposed to the county. the pensions are index linked erm to take account of cost of living. increases are applied erm in april each year. eligibility for such increases if somebody takes premature retirement and they're actually below the age of fifty five the increases don't apply until you attain you fifty fifth birthday. at that point your pension will be brought up to date and you would see an increase then and annually thereafter. erm in cases of infirmity pensions, erm ill health retirements i mentioned previously the increases apply there from the very start so irrespective of the age in infirmity case the erm the increase does apply. well your redundancy payment is a one off pension pension. it it depends what you would get if your under the age of fifty five yes. yeah. redundancy payments yeah the pension's frozen for five years and and then catches up. if you if you under the age of fifty five. yeah. erm can i move on to family benefits now a word about family benefits. er the teachers' superannuation scheme the payment of erm widows widowers and children's pensions. erm and there are basically a short term pension is available. long term pensions for widows widowers and children. there are also dependants' pensions. and erm a payment which is known as the death grant. so if a teacher actually dies in service you know whilst you are still employed in service er first of all actually be a death grant payable. erm there are various calculations for this but it's it's going to actually be at least one year's average salary. there would also be a short term pension payable er and this would be paid for three months at the rate of your pension or pay at the time of death. and that's paid erm to your spouse to you know to keep things sort of flowing if you like while the long term pension is sorted out. so at least there's income coming in for three months at the rate of your salary. thereafter long term pensions they are payable erm at whatever rate you provided for. so if all your service counted benefits the long term pension would actually be half your pension. for the married men all service from the first of april nineteen seventy two counts erm for family benefits. before that you had the option of paying additional contributions to cover previous service so you will no doubt know if you actually took took up that option. if you did then the chances are that all your service will count for family benefits. er for the married married women erm, only service for the sixth of april nineteen eighty eight counts. so when that provision was introduced, you too had the option of paying additional contributions to cover previous service. erm obviously if you didn't, then the widower's pension will be quite a bit less cos we're only talking about from nineteen eighty eight. erm children's pensions they would be half the widow's or widower's pension and they're payable for dependant children up to the age of seventeen and for children who are in full time erm higher education and for one child the payment would be actually half the widow's or the widower's pension. if there were two or more children, then you would actually receive erm twice that amount so you'd receive half the pension. so if you like the that pension plus the the widow's or widower's would equate to your pension. dependants' pensions, it's possible for er single people to actually nominate a financially dependant close relative to receive erm pension benefits in the event of your death. you do actually have to make these nominations whilst you're employed in pensionable service. erm and that nomination would subsequently lapse should you marry or erm on the death, marriage or remarriage of the person that you actually nominated. if anybody actually erm would wish to pursue this one, you actually need a leaflet eight six one pen. perhaps like to mention it at the end of the session and i can arrange to get one of those sent to you. but you do have to make this nomination whilst you are employed in reckonable service. and again the person that you nominate does have to be financially dependant on you. ? i'm i don't know precisely. it's it's quite a quite a while. quite a few years. am i right, for any of these er nominations, you have to set aside part of the pension you would normally receive so that you actually receive a lower pension because you are making this provision. erm i think that's possibly a term called allocation. where you can actually allocate part of your pension and to your spouse up to up to a third actually . yeah. erm to increase their benefits . mm. erm so so that is possible it it actually does mention on the fourteen pen it does erm where you can surrender part of your pension to provide a a pension for your spouse or dependant after death. so you can allocate up to a third. the thing is having done that erm if circumstances change you couldn't actually you can no longer access that amount . . also am i right, the person in the provision has to be yes it does, it's if anybody's interested in that provision, the allocation provision you do need to er to write to the teachers' pensions agency. explaining that you know you either want further information on it or you would like to erm you know take that one up. the same provision applies i mean if you allocated s so much of your pension and that person died then there's no way you can actually access that amount that you've allocated. it's once you've allocated it it's erm you know it's actually gone from your from your calculation. so it's a risk you have to calculate. yeah i suppose it is. erm i know one of the erm one of bernard's colleagues doe say that it's erm it's i suppose it depends on your individual circumstances. i suppose you've got to weigh up sot of various . any further questions there about er the benefits if you were actually to you know if you were to die whilst employed in reckonable service? the family benefits that would be payable when a pensioner dies,very much mirrors erm those that would be payable if you were to die whilst employed in pensionable service. there would be a short term pension normally paid for three months. this time it would be at the rate of your pension. as opposed to your actual pensionable pay. erm the long term pension again would be at half your pension at best. erm the same provision applies to the children's pension. half the rate of the widow's pension for one child and it would equate to that amount if there were two or more children. the same provision is extended to dependants' pensions. as far as the death grant goes, erm for a pensioner that would only be payable erm if somebody actually died within year of leaving pensionable service, due to ill health, and they were not in receipt of an infirmity pension. so if you're knocked down by a bus, that doesn't count. if you had an accident and you died as a result i mean it's got to be some some illness i suppose that so so apart from the death grant erm the other the short term and long term pensions tend to mirror erm you know what would be payable should you actually die in service. you said children would receive it if they were still in full time education, higher education h higher education. did you say higher ? mm. so well in full time education yes. so even though they could be sort of twenty five? yes i mean we had a case recently i think the son was twenty four all these perpetual students. would that apply if they'd been independent but gone back into it? that's what my son's doing. yeah. i'll check that one out for you actually i don't know. i i suspect it would. mm. right. you know if if they were if they were in erm in full-time education at the time . it would depend on was claiming the grant and or whether he was claiming the grant in his own right. if he was claiming a grant in his own right he would be classed as independent. if he was claiming a grant in yours, i did i claimed when i went back to college,my twenties i actually claimed a grant but my father claimed income tax relief claimed under him . but if you claim it in your own right you'll be classed as independent, no longer dependant on you therefore you he isn't your dependant any longer. that i'll check i'll check that one out. mm. yeah. can i make it quite crystal clear to my own mind, long term pension benefits it doesn't come automatically it only comes if you surrender part of your own pension thus making provision for . it isn't in addition to the pension you're getting, you have to be willing to give up part of your own pension in advance. i think that's that's what i understand as allocation . mm. dependant's pension is when you nominate a dependant person to receive benefits in the event of your death. but which is quite separate to allocation. so you don't have to surrender part of your pension with in mind. dependant's pension no no. no you're entitled to that you know that's the if you have actually nominated somebody and that nomination has been accepted by the teachers' pensions agency. but you you wouldn't be able to nominate your wife as a dependant. they would automatically say forget it. erm it's a they talk here about nominating a parent, a brother or sister, or a widow's step-parents. unless the benefits would actually automatically pass to your parents. erm any further questions on family benefits? presumably if spouse has died, can i move on now to re-employment. er re-employment after retirement and the effects on your pension. increasingly people are retiring earlier and you know asking about returning to work. erm as far as how much you can actually earn without affecting your pension, those queries are dealt with specifically by the paymaster general's office in crawley. erm and the de the details for for the p g o are given in this re-employment leaflet which is in the information pack. erm but they deal with the how much you can earn without affecting your pension. the teachers' pensions agency in darlington actually determine what type of work affects erm your pension. your re-employment earnings. so if you become re-employed after retirement in a post which is outside of the education service, the civil service, local government, erm private industry, self employment, that work will have no effect on your teacher's pension. also if you do any full or part time lecturing in university, that will not affect your re-employment earnings. but a former polytechnic, for example nottingham trent university, any work there would affect your pension. so full or part time work in university excluding the former polytechnics, have no effect on your pension. the reason for that i understand is that erm the sort of former universities, it's something to do with the superannuation scheme quite separate so it's all sort of based on their superannuation schemes. erm as far as teaching employment goes, full or part time teaching, supply teaching in erm a local authority school, or in independent schools which participate in a teachers superannuation scheme, will actually have an effect on your pension. now as far as actually calculating what effect, the re-employment earnings will have on your pension, er basically your pension and your reemployment earnings cannot exceed your salary reference. and the salary reference is the highest salary rate you've actually received during the last three years. it differs slightly from the average salary which is which is the best year out of the last three. the salary reference is actually the highest salary rate. erm and that's the rate that the paymaster general's office use to determine erm you know how your pension will be affected. that salary reference is actually index linked each year so that your earnings can you know can rise without erm being affected. as far as part time work goes and supply work, because erm that work is sort of quite spasmodic i suppose it can be i mean some people do a regular amount some do bits here and there. erm they they work on er quarterly earnings. so within a pension quarter, the same ruling applies in that your pension and your re-employment earnings cannot exceed a quarter of your salary reference. and they measure the quarters from your birthday from one quarter to the you know the day in the next quarter. so if you like the first quarter will probable it'll be pro rata that's going to be less because it's it's only part of . erm what you need to do if you are re- employed er you need to let the paymaster general's office know, and there is a form in the this leaflet asking you various questions. for example you know where you're going to be working and what the rate of salary is. how much you know you're expecting to do, part time, full time etcetera. erm and we find in the office that we get lots of forms coming in from the paymaster general asking us to confirm that mister x is employed you know on a on a part time basis. erm now we advise you to fill that in once you do return to work because at least then they can let you know if you are going to exceed the limit. you know if you didn't fill it in, they would act actually catch up with you at some stage and you may erm if you had exceeded the limit be erm you know you may be issued with a demand for a cheque for x for x number of pounds for overpayment of pension. so i would advise you to you know complete that form at the outset really just for your for your own sake. if you'd like to know specifically how much you personally can earn, without affecting your pension i would also suggest that you actually write to the paymaster general's office will work out the amounts erm you know the figure that you've got based on your particular circumstances. in cases of ill health, re-employment after ill health retirement, erm you cannot return to work until you have been medically cleared. you know be medically fit to return. er the same sort of provi provisions apply. the only difference is, that erm if you return to work in a part time capacity, and it amounts to half time or more, then you will subsequently be asked to undergo a medical examination. and if it's determined that you are to return to work then your pension would actually will cease. so i think that's you know that's an important fact for anybody who is taking ill health retirement. but erm you know they do sort of keep a close eye on what they're working unless of course they they are hoping to erm for their health to improve and to be able to return to full time teaching ultimately. but you know they they really need to watch how much part time work they are doing because it could mean that their pension will be suspended if they did work too much. generally speaking i think you can up to about half time without having any effect on your re- employment earnings. er the other thing is if anybody's taking premature retirement, you should also notify the treasurers the county treasury at county hall, because re-employment earnings can have an effect have an effect on the erm enhancement that you receive. but the superannuation section at treasurers would actually work work that one out. erm again i i wouldn't have thought that you know odd days here and there would have any effect but if if it's going to more long term and the you know the amount increases then it could have an effect on your premature retirement compensation. any questions then? what happens on the you may not be employed ? erm the teachers' pensions agen agency's currently reviewing erm the work that can affect pensions. and i've had some conflicting information recently because, not very long ago they did say that any part time hourly paid lecturing in a college would have no effect on pension. but it did seem somewhat of a loophole actually but they ac are actually now re-examining that one, er and i think erm i mean they've since said that it does affect you know it it would be counted as work. as would sort of consultancy work, work undertaken on a consultancy basis. at the moment the advice they will give you is that erm you're okay, but they are reviewing the regulations and once they actually er reach a decision then that work will be . but generally speaking the criteria they tended to use was, if if it was work that would normally be superannuable under the teachers' scheme then that that was work that would affect re-employment earnings. but part time hourly paid lecturing for example isn't eligible work under the teachers' superannuation scheme although they are bringing that one into into the work that can affect . so they are really tightening up . anything else on re- employment? question about if you get employment outside education although,has no effect whatsoever on no. on so in and you don't even need to notify the paymaster general or you don't have to notify anybody employment outside the teaching area altogether. i think it does suggest in here that erm you should notify the paymaster general's office, even if you think that it is not even if you're right outside if you're industry or whatever. yes. thank you. and why are we telling them this if it's not eligible for consideration as a possible way of depriving us of an cash? i don't i mean probably it's just to be to the safe side. mm. it's that that's simply the advice the advice that's given by the teachers' pensions agency. you know either way to actually just let the p g o know. mm ah but definitely to let them know if it if it is sort of teaching mm. teaching . i think there's one advantage in letting the paymaster know because he deducts tax at source, whereas your second employer may not, and it may be to your advantage to be paying tax ah. in a paya p a y e . otherwise you'll have a lump sum later on. i see thank you, or gets paid in cash mm. they catch up with you one way or another. sooner or later yeah. could that affect your income? yeah i i would advise you to contact the er notify the superannuation section yes of any re-employment if you've taken premature retirement. yeah how much effect it does have i don't know because where but i think it's it's really basis you know it's better to be safe than sorry. okay? right that's it can i wish you all a long and happy healthy retirement. not the best of subjects to inject a little bit of humour but we did find er traces of it nevertheless. anyway shall we show our appreciation black velvet gown on television tonight. what? this is the second of the series of the catherine cookson bes best sellers. oh right. this evening we have janet in the leading part. what's that helen? joe . yeah, don't know her. she played rita sackville-west in the er nigel ibbotson film. i haven't se i've read the book i didn't see well i think you did see it, didn't you? no? no, well i can't remember well you have that at seven fifteen, seven thirty. tinker tailor soldier spy at nine five so i can record the ending . i'd like the alan bleasdale erm g some something g h something i think it's three letters play or something. is it on sunday? have a look i'd like not to miss that. what's it called? b, b g h or something, it's heavily starred have you got it? no, actually there she is at the back of what is it called b g h, just five letters? ya, three, three letters. doesn't seem to be on. ya i've seen trailers ya sunday. well sunday's here. well it's sunday i was looking for something nothing? nope tree of hands. no. ship of the world, knight riders no you'll have to look at the paper. gosh he looks ugly! bleasdale. who? he looks fat and ugly. who? bleasdale that's right there should be something here. oh it's nigel kennedy. why isn't it here? it's nigel kennedy playing brahms on tuesday. now i was looking at the other fella a strong comparison, i was mixing him up with i now have a look at your diary and see if you're free on the fifteenth of june, saturday fifteenth june for the stella artois competition. well i suppose i am i shall phone ruth and see. well i thought you were going to berlin this month? no i'll have to phone first dawson's on the same day, have a look. yes i got those from the office without a graphic a graphic artist's exhibition on the plaza. yeah. five year students, they gave a party for them the other evening about fifty of them must have turned up. mm. yes you can throw it away. yeah, pity it was on ban it was on bank holiday so yeah i know. kathy those documents have been there all week and you not taken the trouble to look at them but you will quip about the poll tax and its iniquities but you can't even read your own poll tax notice. i'll do it when i can. where are we going did you say? to battersea park somewhere we'll have to find out what this is, the oldest. no, i know what it is. the oldest swiss institution in britain. yeah, swiss school but it's only for the the old pupils. so what is this date? i need to put the date in my diary cos they're going to fill up during the summer so you we go assume on the fifteenth june we're alright for the tennis competition. ah. i have to tell them on monday otherwise they'll give them to somebody else for this. alright stephan stays until the fourth, thirteenth or fourteenth, no fourteenth he's already leaving for saudi. thirteenth or fourteenth you're right and when does he arrive? now,mond no, no now won't do, he's not arriving now. the third on the third. well he must be arriving on monday then. ya good. are you having to meet him or er no. oh. well he if he has a heavy suitcase i i i go to the station yeah. how is he coming, by train or boat? no by plane, from heathrow. heathrow, i see. and then he will have to go he doesn't have to go to london every day any more i we shall go here with with erm philip and so on. no. i'd like to go when is it? i doubt if it'll be very exciting. well, too bad. it sounds pretty staid. why should it? well, i would think anything swiss would be pretty staid. very proper. i don't think so anyway. no lager louts. i hope not what's that? i don't know, i imagine that it's something tha they're construct some work of art they they have constructed but where? read the book it will tell you there's probably an explanation on the cover or the inside of the cover pass me the coffee please. the cork in the cooler put it put it over there. i can never find these things. you're not even in i don i couldn't find that mm that sounds beautiful. good. really pure and and look look look. oh well there's an open air museum there, there's the bedroom. yeah, but look how that's exactly like yours except that it looks it looks lived in. it's lovely. it goes exactly my grandmother's oven except that stupid gate oh that's for people look it's all wooden look it's all woo i know. nothing coloured see. yes. except just the colour is much better alright what are you saying. now we could use plasterboard at a fraction of the price and put it up in the fraction of the time. only this lasts hundreds of years and the other kathy i should hate to live in the house my grandfather lived in a hundred years ago! no. i probably i would probably wouldn't survive the winter. look come and see it's how false it is nobody nobody would have all this white you know, how stupid it's really completely false, they would have colours an and not just white with beige. i wouldn't survive the winter in that sort of house. well you would have to. well maybe if i was forced to. i'm i'm i'm really surprised how they could do it like that and these flowers would honestly! everything is white. kathy you must go round the museum you would are you going to the tate on wednesday? no. why not? you go there every wednesday before long they'll ask you to run the library elbow a few old ladies out of the way! ah look! did you know this ? i think i may have it. did they send it? i think so but it's very out of date though. what? well it's not it's it look. well the paper must be out of date because i think i got that stamp months ago in fact you bought it back from switzerland. how? mm. i didn't bring you a stamp. yes you did. did i? must be mad! this one? yes. oh ah yes i bought it in did i bring you four? suppose so. and what about these two, have you got these to two? i think i have, yes you could also have this one as well, it's expensive actually. i really must take this over here again, you sit down there and look, patrick here, how well do you know switzerland? the nineteenth question is which celebrated swiss clown and mime comes from you know which don't you? what? yes, dimitri. yes. mm. so he's a national asset isn't he did you know that. oh i should think he makes money, yeah makes switzerland known like gabriella sabatini is a tremendous asset to the argentine when did the and becker for germany and gazza for england gazza gasgcoine. doesn't sound an english name anyway. no, they just called him gazza, his name is gasgcoine nobody knows what his first name is. no. but gazza goes well with gasgcoine. ya. gasgcoine is rather a long word to say so i suppose the boys at school call him gazza. ya, but wh where was that name, is it a french name? i don't know an invented name. gasgcoine it's been coined. no, not gasgcoine french yes. or, gasgcoine i don't know what it is probably of french origin, northern french. mm. gascony. mm well. probably he was his ancestors were from gascony and came over with william the conqueror like the name norman it's a widely known name in england. norman? ooh yes . mm. his ancestors were probably normans who came over . they changed it into . what? i daresay their neighbours changed it to , like gazza's neighbours have changed his name from gasgcoine to gazza or the newspapers have done it. gosh! i'm really stupid you even have to name two big banks. well that shouldn't be difficult you see them on every street corner. it depends where you are a wait a minute well of course if you've some chinese outfit look i mean you would know all this wouldn't you? i have to say so, yes i know a lot about it. well i suppose we are typical. well i wonder what lord hanson will pay me for my i c i shares they're still writing. no. oh yes people are busy buying hoping that lord hanson will pay them more when they pay more. you'll have to pay the bill won't you? there's the man who owns beaumont college now. show. chairman of i c l. saatchi saatchi shows no signs of recovery. saatchi brothers salaries have been cut by a half and they've appointed a new man. they have? robert louis briggs to run the company. who is he? french banker i think mr arnold wanted to know why maurice and charles saatchi were being paid such a ridiculously large salary when the state of the company was so absolutely dreadful. so? mr maurice saatchi who now gets three hundred and ten thousand pounds a year compared with six hundred thousand pounds a year two years ago replied i'm quite satisfied that involuntary taking a fifty per cent pay cut i have done the right thing. well. well they've lost their company they've lost control of their company. they founded it? oh yes and and then it got too big for them they are no longer able to control it they're not big enough for a big power two very big big brothers but they couldn't run a company the size they built it. what are they,i erm financiers or gr or or artists? oh they're advertising. what, advertising? one is a , one is an advertiser of embassy of the consulate, good combination. oh, oh i see. like being important in a gifted man reckons someone who knows how to handle the figures no david isn't interested in figures what everyone knows that, he will tell you himself. so. he's got better things to do than play around with columns and figures okay, okay. wasting his time like my spending my time on doors! okay. speak hall ah what? speak hall so it's one of the most beautiful houses in england. is it? oh yes. and you've never been? ooh i was taken a long time ago. well i wasn't. i think i liked it. is it furnished? why would i liked it how funny! we wouldn't have got through the mersey tunnel before there was aggravation. who lived here a merchant or somebody? probably, someone you would disapprove of i didn't know whether remember no probably not it goes back to the middle ages. well then he wouldn't be a merchant would he? he could be but not the sort of merchant you're thinking of there were lots of merchants in those days those merchants who build up places like they were greek merchants, in fact they were called merchant venturers weren't they? i don't know. the great cities were built by the merchant venturers. i'll feed the birds and then you can see how they eat an and drink in the bath will you? well i'd like to take the second one back, could you reach it in the car? beg pardon? i'd like to take the second one back and that's how and an my my back aches you know when got any more black bags? yes, yes flowers when they watered really sometimes i i all the others are dreadful. why? why should we not be nice? sorry? they've lasted for nearly a fortnight. a week fortnight. no, isabelle wasn't here last weekend. ah, yes. is the recording still on? i don't know, wait le let me see yeah these are nice these erm erm no those flowers have lasted fo for a fortnight. that means the yellow ones for three weeks now, are finished now every bud open every she wouldn't he had some lovely irises but she wouldn't buy them cos she said they wouldn't last. yeah, well all the shops are closed in it now it's finished put some chemical in in the water and makes them well then obviously, they like it. will you do the lawn in front today? today or tomorrow i really should put down some more fertilizer particularly on those brown patches there are some brown strips in the front lawn. now look at that i want you to see them in the bath, they enjoy themselves like children. mm. it's so funny it's real entertainment someone at the tate said er, you know when i told them i bought the bird bath, they said you will have lots of pleasure with that and i think i have. good. really i'd like you to do the the lawn just nice now otherwise in a week it's too long again ha? ooh i'm not sure with my blades up it'll have much effect but we can try. yeah, it would look nice, like like that one. but i don't think you'd see much difference. every weekend or two is a is it much eas easier if you have the blades, high up, ha, no? just a sec. say it. the blade needs replacing at the moment it is snatching at the grass. well i i saw them in mill, but i didn't know which size, size you need actually i saw some in mill. well are you sure they've got the right ones? twenty-ninth of june has never rained no, did you read the article in the times about er about what? watering gardens? no, where is it? oh i think i've thrown it away. oh come on. it was in yesterday's paper it's already in the kitchen. can you tell me everything or or should i read it? it just says don't water if the plants look healthy don't water them, we overdo the watering and it their roots then start growing upwards towards the soil. what, really? upwards towards the surface instead of down. why? overwatering don't know kathy i'm not a gardener! oh overwatering what? overwatering is is damaging to the plants. ah then mine can't complain they usually have no water no. only water if they look as though they need it. really? mm and don't cut the grass too short. and? and that's what they say raise them. i just think it's wrong because every day a tiny bit the ground loo looks much much better than if i don't give them for weeks an they do, well. oh if you don't think they look well then they obviously need it if they look better after they've been watered, that's what the paper says. well then they do need water. that's the answer they if they look as though they need it they need it but if they don't look as though they need watering don't water them. well look, look at the birds i aren't they sweet all the same i shall buy a nesting box next er next year. mm. i'd like to see the blue tits come out you know there was a programme on television and you saw inside a box of a blue tit, a nesting box, right inside. ah, yes. how could they do that? how can they go so? obviously put in a little camera in the inside in the box. in the, or just in the in the corner. in this little hole in the side of the box with a wide angle lens. oh, i see ah i thought they had sort of you know like fairy tales, you can see through the wall, that's what they do put a camera in in , anyway it was rather funny and those birds come out and grow up quite quite wonderful. they can now put a television camera into your stomach. really? and into your veins i think. and in everybody's house what? oh yes and then ah here's a blue tit look there you see, and then where does it connect up, it doesn't happen. i'm not sure perhaps it has a thin catheter or wire i don't know wire i'm not sure. just smells i like wild birds because that's the animal i like best because they are in the wild you don't have to cage them but you have the pleasure of them being free, what? free isn't it? you might get a bit of a mixture a few other birds not always sparrows. it's such an effort and yet i enjoy it so much. but well really you know when you like it so much . oh yes, make some bread with the soup i've got to go out. you know what they do if, if they have to go away. they don't really? and again. what did you say? they sometimes what? harrow or ealing or somewhere like this. oh no so when are you, when are you playing tennis, on the fifteenth? i have to know. the fifteenth so i could go and that's on a sunday or a saturday? saturday. so i could go monday, sixteenth monday, yes? i may really nice. yes. on the, so i took her for . picture on the . yes , yes, yes. but erm, she just had it combed out, but it looked, she should have had to have it combed because now, i said you would not like it, because it looks too sophisticated and i, i think it don't look like there's quite i'll get it after him. have you got a pic , alright, come on let us both get it , alright i'll get it. while i make the tea alright?the bottom of the suitcase. i see, alright. so that's good. do you remember when ? yes, yes. alright,. listen, why on earth, didn't your mother ? . the day i came back and i hadn't seen . this is a most strange to hear something like that. is it? yes. really , i think she's lost weight again. aha. and then i saw her the next day and and then i realized the and then i came back home and i told her why doesn't she see there's something changed . yes, does she, yes. and she said yes she's afraid so . she didn't lose, she didn't lose weight it's something else, and erm, and eh,oh that's why it was , so a . i see . i approached the . , yes, yes, yes, yes. alright, that's . okay are you ready for the big ? , yes, well, i, i do want it too sophisticated, eh,don't like that, ergh, ergh. like it? no, oh i think it's ghastly. really? yes. oh i like it. no, i don't like it. but it's quite . what's that supposed to be, be here. it's, it's, it's not in it's like very fluffy, and normally it's much more natural and not . yes. not as big, i like it. you like it? it's much more like, you know . yes. and erm and have you got only one? yeah, only one. sophisticated. yeah. well,. you like it? i really, i really like it. really? i've still lot of hair, but eh oh. dear me, thank you very much for , and i don't know why . oh she's the one she's a . she'd had the ah yes, what she has, yes. one. shaped, yes , nice, yes i thought in the end. aha. it is nice, i, i, do like , i like better than the blue. yes, but it's not for every day. i think it could be for every day. no, it's, it's , but erm, you know,. ah yes. not in the blue. blue is nice too. mm, no. no. it looks like erm oh it's nice i think, what you say . other colours. i think red, i think red i like. but what can she have then? colour. i see, yes, okay, that's nice . and in the back . ah that's nice, yes that's , er that's good, it, it cutting er hair, you know below, make such a lot of , yes, what, what . in the back. yes, annette. it's a bit like, i'll, i'll, it's very, you know very, it's quite curly i thought, because i really thought she had a perm done, when, when she had it. yes. and, and, i asked did you have a perm done and she said no. really? oh it's wonderful. does she put or something? yes, she does, she has no, not curls, she has like one of those blow er hair driers i hope not , i see. you know with the, with the large,. it's like a round thing i did, yeah , yeah. and a, and a,. know what she do with a,. , i don't know. oh that's . yes. i don't know why . , from where they were here as well, as i did weeks ago. ah . have you seen them? no not yet. oh yes, look. nice isn't it? it's, it's really clean, yes she, she really picks very good choice, look. very beautiful, that's er when . what is the name of the castle again? erm buckingham, buck . no, no, no, no, it's cottoney. it's cottoney. yes. it's cottoney. it's very romantic, it's very . i see, yes, alright. aha, yes. alright. yes, well you broke the what? yes, the bird bath. very nice. yes, i love it. i absolutely love it. erm, i think it's the right thing, isn't it? yes. because there are hundreds of different types and i put it there, i wasn't sure i already said can i bring it back? and i kept . i thought it looked very good. very nice, plain and nice. yes, yes, yes , you know you have . yes, what'll you call them underneath this? peonies. peonies. and you know the bird come i'll give him a . they flutter round and eh, oh it's lovely,, because i have, yes they've eaten all the rice, i gave them rice, and eh, they're very sweet, then they come and eat, then they have a bath and then you know push each other, and they make a . very good,takes photo, you know, i don't know how he can do it , i can't . just never get anything interesting in it and look she has this in the middle, you see, she has this, this,and it makes it so beautiful. aha. okay. no , thank you. . what would you like me to have , you like to have some toast or some erm, or some biscuits with it? the tea. yeah please, but not very many. no. i'm, i'm, i have a problem, a kidney problem. really? yes i, i, you know when i went home, i, i, felt very , i felt quite tired and eh yeah. not very, very well. yeah. but i went to the doctor. yeah you mean some time ago? and , yeah, well, about a month ago. i see. and i so i, i went to the doctor just because i didn't go, hadn't gone for a while mm mm, yeah. and i wanted to , and eh we had done my blood taken for all kinds of tests yeah. and erm, i have what is called a a , it's some something to with the with the kidney, so i have too many proteins in my blood. have you, aren't you lucky? no. no, cos i'm not allowed to eat any milk products any more. no, i see. and no meat. no meat? well some meat, but i'm not allowed to a lot . a lot yes, how many a day are you? yeah. yes,. so so eh too much protein. protein. protein. so erm, and so,i had to go to,, i had to go to the bathroom to the toilet very, very often. well,. yeah. about every hour or something like that. yeah. so i thought it would maybe something with sugar. or that . yeah. yeah. sugar er you know. , you don't want tea with er milk, you want to have lemon in it? anyway that's the thing i yes. shouldn't have because i'm . right. but erm mm, mm. but, no, it's my fault, because before i , living on the . yes, but that's alright, what have you? , i, i heard a programme the other day, they just saying that shouldn't drink too much milk or something, you get the high. well, you know, i always, i'm always you have to drink two pints a day, which is more than a litre. well, that's, you know, that's a that's not too good for you,. yes i know. well i watch i drink, i drink two pints a day, i always drink two pints a day. you always do? , two pints a day. aha,. you know, normally, not, not always, but yes , who is it? yep, she phoned you. , but i won, you know. be alright. sugar or neither? . so erm, so now i have to be careful, erm, but i'm, i'm very much better. so what yes, already you feel the difference do you? much, much better. i see. well that's excellent of your compliments , although i don't really know at the time, so yes. and then i have you, you drunk a and . i could see that when i did, you know,. no i'm fine. i, i could feel that i have, i had to go back to the bath to the toilet quite often. if what? if i drank a little and . . really. so what did you think then? for i think being by yourself what did you eat? what did you eat? i had erm, chicken, fish and a lot of vegetables and fruit. yeah, yeah, did you cook for yourself? yeah. . you dive in the lake and . but my dog, my dog went into the lake. if you can. did he? yeah, he went lake, and then the next day . what . oh that's alright. he made me all wet. you know, he once, he once came from brussels and he, he stop, in, in . just it was a beautiful day, so i said why not stay for an hour , so we got out, out, in , so we , as it is,, you know we just went round a little bit, and it's very tidy and nice, biscuits. a . and tea cakes,swearing. started swearing and so, so, and , you have to be very careful. it's so, i'm tired . yes, yes. it's terrible, you know , i'll tell you one thing, i went out with , he did whatever he had to do. . oh yes. and the farmer , had your little bag . really? no, i haven't got it, i'm sorry. yes, really you know, because, then i, then i looked at, on the other side they er were full of cows and and he would make it that was alright, but he was making sort of very little . that was alright . well, you know, it's, it's not a very, was it on the road? no, never. where? i see, well . i know, because you know, it's not very . aha, because it's supposedly, it's not ecologically good for i see. so, so the aren't doing here. well fair enough, but . i'd rather have a meal wouldn't you? sure you know it's, it's a high fence but we could try to jump in and would have done the other, the farmer came with a stick and er he useful know, no yes, it is. . i bought it , it's a multiple yes, yes. never mind . i don't know, it's a very nice gathering . yes,. i think the owner of is swiss. no. i wonder now, or is, i'm not sure any more, but i think she is. why do you think so? it's an old lady. yes, but i think she is swiss. is she? i'm not sure though, i'm not sure. she's a very old lady, distinguished looking. very old lady , yes. well have you seen her? n i have worked with her on, she is responsible for some artist to do in belgium and i needed some information on some artist who worked, that was at the time when i was doing eh, p r campaigns for er, sheba, the cat product, and we needed . we needed artist who were painting cats. aha. and she had, she was responsible, i mean she was er, representative for two of the paintings in belgium so that's why i'm . yes, so you're painting cats? yes. yes. all two, all the two of them. oh, yes.. yes. so, look, i have to hid it from patrick otherwise he will eat them all.. well he has to eat. . have to hid it. well then have to hid it from me too. alright, take some, and then i hid it. . here have some . shocking,going to take some away. shall we need some plastic sacks? one . in the morning, all day. nine thirty. not all day? three hours? three hours. that's it. from nine thirty until half past twelve. the little analysis and communication board. oh my grief. how many , maybe that simple, very simple eh? and what is it really? what is meant by that? it is, about comparing political, sociological, economic novels. well, what do you mean ? great communications, great . how can you compare, how can you apply pluralism, imperialism. oh my god, can't you really find . which is? . or a corporate system, how can they apply to communications? i still don't know any . okay, so,. give me an example. erm, alright. for example, when you talk of, imperialism, when you look at, when we, we've study it from a , erm, quite a few, so it means that that capitalism supply and, but the problem is, that, although it creates supply it laboured people who worked, yeah yeah. cannot buy it because it's too expensive for them. so capitalism has to export it over its boundary and that's one of the company, what you could call it period, for example, erm i see. let's maybe become export, become does it? alright, let's see the french , mm, mm, mm, yes. well . so for example, i don't know, erm,, let's take an example,,, the french, erm multinational,tele telecommunications yeah. national. do you know , you will find here, that they say . yeah, so you better if you have . i haven't . you don't, okay. multinationals, they have erm,, doing much better abroad than it is doing in france. okay, well . because the french cannot always buy what alright, alright. so that's why it's only period. well you can call it export too, but export is . that means imperialism means in a way they're the french market it's well known, and, makes itself sell at much a than in its, in its own country, so you can say that for example thompson has a monopoly tower, most european and have a monopoly tower yes. in not only holland but in germany. yes, quite. belgium yes, yes. and so when you, so it means that the dutch are leaders, so it's, it's kind of, that's how putting up the communications empire . in holland that the empire is broader than belgium is. mm, mm. broader than all over europe. mm. that's why it's called imperialism. ah yes. so it becomes in fact a telecommunication empire. yeah, it's really, it, it is the power not they're exporting. yeah. yeah. the power. it's more than . yes. logical side of, of . yeah, yeah. now, alright, that's imperialism yes. what, what's the other? eh, multinational. they do a bit of imperialism. , they are easy aren't they? and then erm brussels. i my power at that, that place and nowhere else and nobody agreed and, well, they say we go somewhere else, and . they're a big company in brussels , and they got, they got their office where they like . and now they're gone. aha. well you really . but it's nice you know brussels. you know so what did you do yesterday? went there at what time? erm what did we do yes, well we went, i, i went to isobel at what, i found her at three, we had . we even gave her coconut to the dog which i which was nice. i see you. no, no, yes my dog. aha, he, he, still thinks isobel has the dog. no i don't think so. no. no because it's another one, not the usual one. i see. so, then we went to . yeah. i went home . on saturday afternoon we had tea at five with erm, andre and . andre and . aha . and they . and they play well? yes. . . some more tea? i'm fine, no. no. so you don't play ? i, i did play. out of practice eh? right, well i'm not . he said,to myself, you know, just by myself,. and so on. no . yes. can't all be. no. i suppose it's healthy enough actually, your mother coming today, the airport? no, no. no. my brother drove me. aha. one week in . no . yeah. yep, i hope it . youngest? the youngest one. ah gosh it's .. , because, though he is in the army, he's doing a masters degree in brussels as well, at night, so it can be done. can't he work a bit in the day? is he fully occupied? yeah. is he really? they get him free time, so now he's had two weeks off i see. for study. aha, yes. but he'll have to two more weeks then afterwards. no, aha,. and a , michelle. michelle is now in the , second and then erm, he might go to switzerland to study . ah yes, what is ? the second year. yeah, yeah, what? what? in accountant. ah, has he . i see, yes. are you still completely confident in, in finishing? very quickly now. does it? but erm what about if you have to write it? that's fine, well i have to, to make a, have to write a little letter and, and, that's . and i wasn't sure of the work any more, but yes, you mix it up . no, no. really, no. no , it's quite a apart. yeah. it's much harder, i mean i simply , swiss german, than dutch yeah, really? aha. cos i practice more it. yeah, yeah. no, i, i really. . talking yeah. talking . . you know i still keep the italian you know , it's more than french, at that time, and, well i worked in , i was, i was really quite good at it, but now, i just lost it. first of all i never hear it any more on the continent i can't seem to hear the radio, you hear some, you know,put on the radio and you have a , brussels already , he had nothing at all. but don't you think that oh no he would come back quick. i don't know anybody, aperitif, and the and all that stuff, you know, the exception. no,and i, i . aha, aha i told myself, i had to force myself not to. i at once, stefan, there was an , i was anything, just . so a lawyer came, and of course i had my own office , confidential stuff, so he wanted to give it to me. , and in the machine or something, i had you know, i never know, you have quite a few words which aren't any french or . one language, one and the others have two or two . or else, i . yeah. and so i thought you . you have . common . common? common. no it's too . as well. yes. the french. yes. i see, is it? yes,. i know you're right, now it's imperative with one and it's with two . yes. . that's what i mean. poor chap, he's, he's getting furious and and there are hundreds of . two s's you know and french you don't marks the difference, italian you do say that you have double quotes,.. writing i don't, i don't think she'd, she can write it there, i don't know. italian . yeah, and she ever uses it, why doesn't she forget it? well i think she uses it quite often, you know, i mean where, where? at the office, or the italians come, she always uses it. well, when there are, i mean, i think, well i think it really con i mean, when i'm with the dutch i really thought the other day i can till david comes back again, quite quickly. well i hear you, but . mm. i forget it, erm, where is it . stop there for tonight, but i had you know, i just spoke french. i just didn't open my mouth, but i understood what they said and they didn't know . you know, and so, so the second time, the second day i could say one or two words and the third a little bit more, but eh that's it. same when i'm, when i'm in italy, i, i can't speak italian very well, but when i'm there a week, i pick up words very quickly and although i know my grammar isn't perfect, i can form sentences in a way that people do understand me,. yes. yes. i, that, for me the hardest thing to do is example is study spanish. yeah. because as i heard my mother speak italian all the time and my cousins, you really ca can in my, you know in your yes. your sub conscience, yeah. you'll pick it up. mm, mm. and i really understand italian quite well, and eh, when i had spanish, i, i suppose . you picked it up.. all the time i had, i had spanish. did you? and when i had to speak, i spoke italian. did you? well i didn't know spanish, but i got by with the italian, you know, i had, i had once,. don't you? yeah, yeah. and eh, julia and and eh ruth and her husband , eh went to madrid and i stayed with isobel. mm, mm. , and we went to the beach and i came back and , leap of the whole er, side of the car. you can imagine so, i , it's awful. so yeah. i , want other people's cars in . that's very funny, for example, i went dutch because when we were small my brother run away. yeah. he always, well we not always often, very often, spoke dutch with each other. did you? yes, because of, we were in school together in dutch and on the way home we were with dutch friends, so we then, and we mostly spoke dutch and now, since i, so it's nearly, since now seven years have been, since i have gone to states, first year in eighty three, came back in eighty four, and since then we've never, ever spoke dutch. erm, yes, yeah yes. yes i see now, ah, yeah . we always speak french to each other. yeah,. that a make . if you spoke dutch all the time. oh. so yes, with my mother and my father . all french,, yeah. when we couldn't, when, when we were not allowed to in the states. really, i think it but now it i remember a on the telephone, you know, i used to speak and talk and talk, apparently she would switch to german, so that means that i can't someone shouldn't allow it, i, i always knew what it meant . and, that, you make me think of it, suddenly she'd switched. for what happened she can do it because, so okay, let's hope it's going to be nice. i really pleased with, with that . really, i really like it. sweet, isn't it? it's very nice with the plants on. yes, yes. very, very nice. now i'm, i'm really thinking all the time , something in the back thing the grass, the garden . looks nice, and erm, how do you call these erm, ah . looks nice. yes. it's, it's already once cove covered the whole wall, but when we took the other fence down, the high fence eh, you know, they damaged everything. erm, i'm going to lose , digging so much, it's terrible. it looks nice . right. come a no you've seen that,. yes. you know you can, you can take few of these chairs, and, these chairs and tables here,in the evening, whenever you want to read there, you can do that. okay right, right. i've already asked. where the keys? there we are. i'm not going to throw that away until . put away my things. yes. cos he was a man. no. oh you have to, oh you can't leave him alone one second . but he still has his hat on. oh yeah, at night, anyway because at night he's alone and he's from it and during the day, i know, i know my brother as i can't rely on the, and, and, you know, and look at, michelle would look at, at him all the time, but , put, put the thing on you know. yeah. and so erm so i tell you i take off when i go out now, because, everyone looks at you. laugh, oh they laugh, oh they are funny, they even they have to explain it and we didn't . and it's quite dangerous, because it doesn't hear very well, that , when you're behind him . where are you? and eh you know,. you take it off the . doors we can have them painted,. he comes into the door, he comes into the door and it's like guess that, that would happen. i went and all the way except for the hotel which is the most wonderful walk hotel yeah beautiful garden,, my mother and i said very well you, we will come for week here but we won't go out of this . aha. not one . it's raining why on earth did he want to go there? because he had i don't know, there's this house, what's falling apart like, and it, it was small, it was like, i think it was wide at the . right, so it was wet, very tiny aha. aha . and erm, and so, you know we didn't say anything erm, cos he wanted us to buy, so michelle and i went and my mother. we only went for two days. yes. and so, but the surroundings on . beautiful, yes, yes. ah a little small village we have what they call , which is a big yeah, yeah. with, you know they have it in, in the square, it's a square . aha,yes. and with a glass of cider, aah, wonderful. i see, yes, i really like to , yeah. it had those little tiny villages and very nice, very nice. was ugly thing. the you know it?, very, very , quite chic is it? you can see it's quite chic. ah. and it's not, it's not beautiful . no, no. they have kind of you know, in the back, in that little house,, i mean if you buying you know, it's like , i mean, if i had to go there two weeks in the year, you know what i mean. oh yes, yes . yes. so i would like to go there, i would never ever spend more than two days there, in the winter, and if i, except staying at this wonderful hotel. yes. it's where we had the most wonderful room, in the, in the, my brother michelle and i we said, you know, we arrived there with my brother had, my father had an appointment with, with the architect at three o'clock in the afternoon so we went too , before yes. which is a very nice city, where it's all . aha. so went to andre's and had lunch there and went on to, to a, play ball, then er, there was called, and my mother and i had what,. marks. marks marks i see. end of marks. yeah. and then, my mother said one week before and then my mother said, don't say, don't say . i know, i did,. porcelain and glass you know yeah, yeah, i don't know where it comes from . so she went with the architect and he was wanting to show us this kind of and we were like, were cold and were back to the hotel, we didn't even go into the house. no. and, and, it's was so bad, oh it was terrible. i mean the house in itself, no, i mean aha, that lady you could see have responsibilities, no? responsibilities, i mean, it would have to be torn down and build up again it was in such a bad shape, it was really,i mean, terrible, it must of been, it was, it was man who lived in since the second world war, alright, so you get . the, the, there was a very old car,, one , in a beautiful car but there was nothing left of the car, you couldn't even if you cut it, it . that's right,, it's a, it's a, so my mother and i said we're going back to that hotel, you know, were very, very kind of luxury type, so we went back to the hotel and my brother and i went into the room where we had a television view on the sea, very beautiful. mm, mm. it's quite beautiful, because it it's . their ball is tied in a . ah yeah, yeah . so i, and erm, very nice, very nice, and eh, we had a marvel bunker erm,bathroom and so we had some of those for half an hour , so good,and i would i had to, we had to get out, quite a long way too, it's about, it's longer than driving to, nearly as driving to zurich. same thing, seven hours drive, terrible. did you drive ? no i drove. who drove? my father drove, then i drove. aha. but i, i, take in your car? no, no.. but did you drive so quickly again? no, no, no. oh i didn't tell you, the day before he had a dash . the day before left? i was not i was not , two hours. oh god. , it's not , my brother dared make the remark on, oh, it time, since then didn't have any accident. i have my father on the phone half an hour later, erm, erm, when's phil leaving tomorrow? don't, don't worry i, don't tell mother but i had a little accident. i said no it's not true, what on,door, what door, well the door, is it bad? well, you'll see. the whole door is , the back door. right. , i mean a mess. what how, how's he . like a . yes. the night before? the, the afternoon before he had to leave. before. so you can imagine the door and the air coming through, you're driving seven hours, we had put my bro i don't know what they did at night , because of are you renting a car unrepaired? unrepaired. why didn't you take yours? we, with four in mine . okay. so my , oh how can you go through that , with a broken car like that, eh, it's a shame you know, so we had to drive. so again how did, how did he hear? how did he manage to ? well it wasn't his fault. luckily it wasn't his fault. yeah, yeah yeah. so erm,did something wrong again , i don't remember whether it touched it, probably nothing crazy again. yeah. and luckily were not the other one, was. his fault. i don't know , it was his fault and the other one,look like, you know, in the , problem . well, some have stock, all of the person in the back didn't it? yes. sometimes you very abruptly, which is. or, you know, whatever it is. yeah, yeah, well anyhow, so it has been fixed . aha. and have a nice trip . don't say that, come on, get . well i'm not sure, i . well that might . so erm all . and eh, that hotel was wonderful, the most wonderful dinner tonight. really? oh yes. do eat well? very. yes,. yes. , friends met . yes,. so we decided not to buy the house . yeah,. no, i . quite. you will have to have also,. no, i'd like to buy something . what in . right in town. can't think , well not right in town . no. is it a now, again, or . well i'd like to buy before my dad go retires, because he's in the business as you know, he knows exactly what to buy and if i have to, you know, have work done, he has this erm you know, it does everything. right, yes. have you finished? yeah, yes. aha. so,as well. yeah, yeah i thought so. so i'd better, even if i had to make an and you know. yes. but i, i really want to have like a even if i stayed in switzerland, because have mind so. yeah. you know, i'd like to have brussels. an apartment, a nice one. yeah, right. not big at all, just comfortable, so that it sleeps two or three. a little bit like yours, like the one, you know, the one you have on . yeah. same kind of . , i mean it's nothing like. i think. yeah, i think two is wonderful. is it? and even two with one child, then, then, after . really? no i think, i, i mean see a lot of languages and i think you're doing very well. thank you. yeah. right now, did you, did you hear about that farm with a job ? yeah, well,. well , now,. , you shouldn't . well this, they said not before end of may. they said. mhm, the third of june. yeah. so,was going to call today, yeah, yeah. would she like it? i think so. you know isobel has a with yeah,i wonder what that tell you. with mr , well there's something in mr . two people. two. ah. i wonder how felt? i table. want me to bring some up to the fridge? ah yes. listen, erm, maybe . if i can help you in any way , can i help you do the dishes ? the bottom drawer you can put this in. the bottom drawer. it's half full. you know . the one, the white one? yes, the bottom drawer is half full and you can put things in them, alright? alright. used to be two drawers empty, now it's full of tapes and i can see they take over. i mean twice yeah. no. yeah. unrecognisable. . ah lovely, thank you so much, that's from, from sylvie. yes. yes oh lovely, aah. that's the one, that , this is a, a one, this is when they come . do they come out ? yes this is a magazine. . i'll get you the catalogue, i have the catalogue upstairs. oh, have some ,. yeah. beautiful . this is . i like . i wouldn't know him, but . no, i wouldn't know. i . yes,. but, someone to sometimes. yes, i don't like it. er romantic and so you don't like it? no, i have to get a terrible picture of cows up close, huge huge and , and . have. yeah yeah. does that come out every month? every month, i'll give you one every month, if you want. you're joking. do . yes. . how's that? this is the one made in, it's made in london. oh i see, it's all, all over. all over. i see, you know. this one is not even sorted , i don't think it's sold, no. no. no, it's it's free. can't buy it? the catalogues you have to buy, this one you get free. you get that free? yeah. wow. so, might of use . they that to get things like . yes, yes, they give it free, no, no, it's free, it's free. where do ? at . do you go and get it? otherwise i can put you on the mailing list if you get . put you on the mailing list. it's too late. what? . i'd, i'd,. no, no, you will go there? on thursday, so i'll put them on i'll put you on the mailing list. yeah. yeah. okay, then i get it every month. get it every month. oh it's lovely, yeah, can you do that? yeah. thank you. i really don't know i love this. yes so do i. it's . i don't know. , you always makes erm, drawings and, and, but always women portraits, beautiful things. . look's like a drawing. and, and on canvas. it's a drawing. yeah look it's a it's believe you. yeah you would say it's, it's, it's. yeah, yeah,, but the face if i wouldn't have known, it's very beautiful, i'd like to open it, can i? yes. romantically done, it's chocolate. it's chocolate sweet, yes, now. yes, or do you want me to wait for patrick? i'll make you wait. ah, the most wonderful day. here me, have the bacon and . where? wonderful cake. , yeah, okay, if you want to dry up. we wash our hands. yes. have you washed your hands . so you saw the did you? yeah. and when yesterday they called, i called them in the morning and they said is your er, you know at one at something, i said no, i don't, i don't really know, i didn't know there was one at one. yeah. but i didn't see them then. oh. and in the evening i looked for them, and then i saw them of course, i knew where they were and i thought quite longly we were right in the front. so . yeah, always the colours mm, there's always one colour . , so erm didn't even go did you? no, no, i could not have gone it er america. she wanted me to go but . who? , wanted me to go with them, but i cannot have , i could not have them, and take this white one too. why? yeah . because it's so and so isobel even told me they have, they have one month even for the so no,. so, erm mm. and, and what that much of an interest. i was very happy because why? do, well, the only one i have heard was the yes. was on friday yes. evening. yes. late on friday evening and we switched on to, to a,, and he was the only one i really heard. i couldn't i was, you know i think when you go to those things you have to be in it. yes, try to be with them. you know from the beginning of , sing all twelve . yes. cos otherwise you don't really appreciate it that much. i , eh,, because he never went before and now suddenly you know, i . i know. does he really make it? maybe sometimes he forces himself. or does he ? no. but i think he would . no, no, no he, no, no, i think what very good of him here . no, you don't think so? yeah. very much like he loves luccini. yeah. i hate luccini. really? , i hate . no, yeah, i don't even know, you seem to know. , he does exactly what he likes, luccini. you know, he never , now suddenly, really as a, as quite a . he doesn't mind? well , no. sometimes i'm, i'm, think he's a too much. i don't know. no, you don't think so? maybe, maybe, may sometimes. maybe. yeah, yeah,. but i have . , well i hope he can stand up for himself, you know. nothing like it,. yeah,. i don't want to go, you know. oh i, haven't got any onions. no problem. for me eh. no, all well. i just . . we should have gone shopping today . if you want to i'll go with you. yes . go tomorrow or alright. that cos i really didn't want to call him, because i didn't want to, to hear you know, oh i've done this, and this, and this, and then you know i would get , and say oh my god i haven't done nothing and i realize i've done much more than . yes, well there you go. well i from what i've known . so eh , somehow i think, you know, they, they used to say that he's , we haven't done anything. that's, that's what i i don't know whether it's true. no, no , no, i know it's not true. i know it's not true, i know it's not, well i know from whom i'm can think it's not true i know it's not. yeah. i find it's,. no because i, no, i well, it's is, i know people who say well i've heard very little and i know that's enough for them to have very good friends. aha. as i'm not the person to answer you very little to get , i'm get into something quite a lot, you know? yeah. yeah you are. i'm, i'm . so everyone, everyone has his own aha. cakes and er some really do have to work very . yeah. to, to, get a get on. you know where that comes from? no. it would be , disgusting old thing. you know what it is? it's . it's an old farmer's erm,, the milk, eh, pulled out here, see, it's a sieve, and that's the . right. so,. it's a use it? no, no, no.. i'll just put in onion,. aha . how funny, i . i'm looking now for a nice you know . they have, have you got a nice wedding present for ? we have er no,, with holes in it? no. no, it should have holes in it. except for one. this one , yes strawberries, see. i , i, i, yeah i know which one, you can, yeah. i told you to make one for your mother would . i know , i know which one you mean. no, no we don't have one. i don't think we have, no we don't, no. . i thought on and i should have brought , long, long . no but, strawberries start to . eh, we have fruit, did you? now look here you,be late. why do i want this . every . you know,. no, they're all dirty. you better give me some no. so i , this i have no more room for erm, for glasses. that's why i had to . not you fed up yet? yeah i see the the , learning for , and it looks very, very good, play, she wouldn't know, well you have to, you have .. old ones from ninety, from ninety, you know, i have to get kilos. , my mother does the same thing, no. really? do you know what she did? my, no father had , erm, like you know insurance, papers and all that, and that . everything out on the floor and now, and now he has to do it, so he did it now, it's still there like. i can see him actually . from year to year and then he, he's fair now, it hasn't been there since i've been home, so it hasn't oh, it's just on the floor. i know, it was there and it was stay until my mother , doesn't do it within the week or something she throws everything out. everything out , yes. i, i have to do it quite sort of efficiency, you know, if you leave it, it becomes dreadful. i know, my , throw anything away. no.. , he loves to . some . no, does it? it is a sign of . i didn't know. i know it's a i thought what you, what you got over there you know. . can't . can i here? eh? do you mind if i go up here to ? . this isn't after all . he , he lives in . and he , a huge crate over newspapers, hundred newspapers, to , when he first , so within a year he never touched it, so gradually i took one more and more . and he never touched them again. and everybody i like . threw all away. and he didn't even realize. and he, he never realizes. but, i mean, every month he would, he would , you know aha he must of ask himself where it, where are all the newspapers yeah. but he didn't. the garden really looks nice. is that it? oh yeah, i love the, the mixed of border you call it the mixed of border no, yes? mixed border. mixed border. yes, which one? the one there. ah, still a bit i really like it. i don't know. cos i, i like, what i don't like in our house we have too many flowers, i think it's nice to have green and flowers in between. really? yeah. unlike you haven't lots of flowers, what's wrong with that? i like it, but i love your mhm, i like it, but i like it like that better. no, i, i'm lucky i like flowers, some are coming up. i like, let's see, i like cut flowers in the house yes. much better than plants in the house. yes. then in the garden i like, erm plants. yeah, let's see . so you have only three hours? yeah, nine thirty to twelve thirty. ah. that's why i'm a little worried it's that, you know they have three questions, so one quest one hour for each. yes. they have to be very quick. yes. and i'm not very quick. yeah, well i'm not too. funny, i'm erm , slow as well. well that's just isn't it? . there you are . you see, and michelle? no. no,. but not as slow as i am,. you would never have . i wouldn't mind eh, i would have that's very . too late. yeah, whatever. there's so many things i would of liked. yes, yes, exactly, erm. you think then you'll stay in clifton? i could stay, but i don't know if i want to stay. it's quite bad . yeah, and i think you, you know in increase the , i'm going to accept the yes. and try to find another . at the same time. yes, or big bank or something, who'll invests in our something like that. cos there are many banks in zurich who doing this. yes. yes. yes, but are you already erm expert enough? well, it's,alrea i mean deal with eh? eh, or, or, anything or public relations on art or something that you know. no i don't think i am, no i'm not an expert, just say well you know, you know. aha. yeah you but erm, you know, where, a way to get, do some marketing to get flights into, more like, you know, italy,, try to get people to buy work of art for you mhm yeah. beginning to erm, intermediate person you doing. yeah. you have develop sort of. yeah. so it sounds really interesting. no. no . you still have your cooker? no, no. no, so your mother cooks when she comes home? well at night . you have had a good ? yeah. oh yeah, well, he has probably eat nothing even in the day and . ... i like the way they like that, you know. . no onions, no onions, much better you . no, i don't boil onions, i'm not, i've never been a big onions chap. no,. you . yeah. really? why? isobel, she had always to study everything ah yes, well everybody does i'm afraid. yes. well i mean everybody does. but on the day of the exam she usually , so so . can i have the first part? yes indeed . you should really . only give the person who's accused of murdering their young student. i'm, i thought you would show photograph of the people who are . they came from america, boston. yes, but this is the photo here. no, no . yes, but, published here. well . well if you don't , have to ask your lawyers, i don't know, you ask your lawyers. i haven't seen the lawyers. no, well, i'm sure the times have got it right it's a bit funny i think, why can you, he's accused, he's not yet guilty. no in fact he's not, he's been arrested for some other crime. been arrested by the americans for obtaining a false passport. no. not been arrested, erm just . they usually don't show . italy some time. mhm. did you know? told me. did i, when? when i was here last time. she was somewhere on . ah yes. the, the night she's away, she, yes, night she's away. she's gone to their . yeah. , on the riviera many crimes , no. where it's close to the french border, you know? no, erm,. no . mm. very quiet now. you can . very quiet. do you go for lunch when it's here? no, yes, but they didn't go, did she tell you? no, it's not that you wouldn't go. well no we didn't go, but she was quite eh, you know, she like it. she said i'm sorry in, in a quite a, ah yes quite a definite tone, sort to make up for it, we yeah, we went to windsor instead. yeah. yeah. and it, it, very funny weather, yeah, so, you know, usually if you've been , along the thames, the thames valley yeah, yeah. beautiful lights, you know, really nice, and you, you see it, i mean,. if it rains, you . , and then the , on sunday, isobel and , beautifully park . it was alright, yes. but then for a moment i thought right . yeah it's such a boring job,, i can't do it when i'm alone, looking at , i just can't, so, you see how many i have. the e i u has produce some very damming report on i c i. what sort of, what do you mean? january first nineteen seven, i c i shares have been amongst the worst on the london market. really? yeah. god. the capital has failed to achieved the real in earnings and dividends. well, harvey jones should go back. i c i was given the unfortunate impression with management more interested in running a big chemical company than in maximizing shareholder returns. ha. shareholders are now looking for hansom approved . really? that means they're all for it, now. i wouldn't mind selling my shares to hansom for a bit more. see if he can squeeze something more out of i c i. mm company deserves to be thrown to the wolves and . i think . mm. i was surprised you all you, are you still went . good. i only choose one side bigger than before. yes. why . i always wore thirty five, thirty five and a half, thirty six, now i'm wearing thirty seven. well you know, strange things happen you always wear the same size? she watches her weight, or yeah. so she really watches it. she has lost she has lost weight, oh. not . she . no, watches it before . she doesn't. she doesn't, or does she ? no, she . . bet she . yep. what deserves it. . does, does isobel see your mother every weekend, every time she goes to, does she? yeah. yeah. sometimes i . yes sometimes . yes . no. more difficult. it can be very hectic. very hectic, can it? yes. yeah. well so tiny. to run like periods of day where everyone gets in about five o'clock . really? sometimes have . no? no, not really. as well? yeah, and i . yeah.. well it's one of . well give her . . have you much ? do you see ? yes i can. the light is very bad in this room. no don't worry i'm fine. that better? but eh, suppose, supposed to be quite interesting. why? so the exhibits and the organization's much more serious than just . yeah. but pay money? no,, well everything was . what? whether i or they're exhibits. you know they had an exhibition room at the . ah yes, yes, yes. they've any more. oh really? i think eh, the french refused to eh, continue on. they, supposedly they stop at everything which is and eh, and a lot of their sponsors. no. which . amazing. yeah. they have beautiful there. not having any. any more? exhibits . oh. well in a sense i can understand it, probably it was you know, the big, the big re-election thing,and many other bands, they, they, couldn't have really get yeah,. yeah, yes get's a lot, doesn't it? yeah so they didn't, you know stand out. couldn't really , stand out, yes, they didn't stand out as much exhibits as they would with another occasion something else. what they do if they had exhibitions , they would eh well i don't know. sometimes . on all three . quite interesting. yes i know how do you deal with ? right . pretty mm. is it, is it sort of like a tea?. no, no, no. it's really an office . aha. well you can . although people can go in and for it. they have . she . she and others as well does she like him? i think she does. how is sylvie? have you seen her? yes, she's doing fine. i haven't had . no i haven't, but, now she's pregnant? is she? yeah. i didn't know. remember she's been . i remember. is she pleased? yes. she's still working? yes think they're a happy couple? yes. are they ? yeah no, it's worse. we were talking about,at least two or three people are getting divorced. really? no, not already,. yes. gosh,mad. well i mean,. she , i thought it was such a nice couple , patrick do you know him? what's . really, no, did you know them well? yes. i , never saw them . and they are ready , they are ? yes. well, well, i . who's letting you ? no, no, no, no, they one who was in the , the two left . i see. she wouldn't the beginning, no she was there in the beginning. no she was there in the beginning with a,, then she left and , she had been married three years. that's all? and they're separated already. and then, we have another friend of the , who is married to someone . yes. , she, she would,, the best, erm,sister's best friend mm. and erm, they're always stuck together, and so i suppose now she's now that she's, her friends has separated she has, she instantly separated . why she's not, can't be that , no. mhm. no, no . what about, erm, the girl who came to ? that's , no news whatsoever. nobody, nothing,, yes, nobody ask you? no. why not? i don't know, very strange. and her friend eh, bridget. yes, bridget. . she architect how soon? yeah. i don't , she's an architect. really? i always liked her, i don't know, well, she had something. she had something ,. yeah. . she, i, she much older than you are? . i think she must be twenty . aha. she's a good friend of is she? she's . a best friend? no. no, a good friend. i like . she is. is she nice yeah?.isn't it? mm. and how is ? working for a . , what is . erm, french t v channel. mhm. he was working for . , mhm. appears belgium two years ago now. mhm. aha. and he has them . no. yes . he's a good . what? very badly. yes. it's french. it's french, yeah, french,. no. no,. no, no, no, no, no, no, doesn't have anything to do with . how does he how is the old woman?. going to build a, a block. what? apartment building. where? in the house that wasn't there. has to, well you have . when you're up and you're looking into the garden very big garden mm. yes, yes yes. the house was sale . yes, but . but they bought, they bought,, erm,. comfy. yes, well . it's, it's, they're pulling down. for , forty five, forty six . really? they're going to build eh so we're going to see it are we from the flat? well, they're, they're not allowed to go too far yes. in one block . mhm. but i wonder how high they're going? yeah. but which hou which housing estate? a one,ju you know, i mean you have complex of apartments which look and then you have the corner, the big house. yeah. you had a big garden though going through. the cabbage thing. always said it was . yes, but one house it's beautiful done out . no, i don't just near the cabbage. you know that if it's sort of an open space, it's just after the . coming up this way then? yeah,block next one down. no, no, no, it's not down there. i know which one it is. no it's not that one, it's the one next to the . oh. the the one that, i know which one you mean the one that was just renovated. no, no, it's the one nearer to you. you knew it , so . right next to, right next to the block. i see, have you got,apartment? of the house. you know, i mean definitely see the wall from the house that's this, yes see the wall of the house, but that's . and that'll come down , will come down and you will have balconies . another wall , no, no, no, no balconies . how do you know? another wall, that's what . no balconies. another lounge . can image if we had all these people, and i don't know , i don't, i hope that, no i don't . well isobel said they can't or not no they can't. and they're not going very far inwards . that'll means they do go . that they do have . it's a supposedly two down , large building whether, cos they can't really move inwards they have to oh, they have to really watch because they're very strict. yes, but do you know, in gabby's in , they had to, to, the builders just gave what they want , and all your residents , they took them to court and they had , eh but was it too late? fans, yes, no,, building, you know,, and then the, they made trouble again and then for every down they didn't pull something down and so they had to pay oh so many er thousands . really? but, they had a lot of trouble as the builders took what they like, so, we've got to watch these, this building. when are we going to do that? i don't know, but there has just been bought. just been bought? think so. oh, now we have to really look. it would look dreadful if each . mm when, when can you hear about it? yesterday and the house sold when? twelfth december, not too long ago. they had been on the for quite a has it? but why haven't they, can they go higher? it's already quite high. yes, i don't think they can go higher, they have to keep on , i'm sure they do.. well, anyway, i don't think that was their house. i think you're right. i think actually you should be allowed a house,you know for a . . it's down, see when you, when you look at the . yeah. , you had a built in , and on the left, they've torn down the whole building. what, have ? yeah, i mean, they've torn down the whole building inside the big . aha, the . i don't know what to do. and what is going to happen to the other side? were all ? well, they're making . , will it? yes. well, the whole corner and aha, yes, and what will happen to the ? well it will, i don't know, otherwise i think it will give it to the . is there one? aha . yes,. no, no, the rest of the building's built . yes, why don't you? but, my dad told me, you know, they've put in air conditioning. really? yes. it was already broken the second day of . never ever worked. why? why was it broke? i don't know,. second time, now you know when to put . yes. yes. which means that here, those metal plates, they came like. how does ? how do we do it? this this is dangerous way,. and . i wouldn't of want to go and . well let's erm, they, they are going to on the same site. now they're not yes, but why? what? do you think it looks ugly? well . it's , it looked a bit like a beehive . that's the shape i like i'm quite upset now about . i already . you don't know how big it is? and i erm suppose the houses they're sold a bit further down,you have more flats. they'll sell another one. well there is but they have, but i don't . well it doesn't much matter whatever it is. well, she you can always . yes and see exactly. yeah. yeah. and go to the , yes that's something quite plain. what? where's that? a brochure i think,,now in belgium where about, there's a list of five hundred houses , which were built by different architects yeah. and erm, said they were erm,all over belgium . period of time. . so the architect is there to give you . i don't know yeah. sure, you have done two now.. they'll be they'll be a hundred by this time. have to do all of them, anybody'll think that we're all belgians. nine hundred, how much will that be?. no i think it's . now you mean those ? don't know . , pity cos i had that too. yeah. in fact it was the , you know like, what these metal , shape shoe. yes. something would be sticking out would hit on something so when the wood , your feet in the shoe, that would make a hole in the, in the front. yeah . and that's why. at first i . you get twenty five. really, mm. really. oh they're vicious creatures. terrible. some of them some areas, some areas are nothing where really . yes, i see . have you? yeah. where? man walking . really? well like, when you see them like this, they don't look. you know i would be oh to me, they do look really, oh sometimes, i always wonder if they are or not.. really? well i think it's the macho thing. never, ah yes. about two years now . make television reporters. yeah. terrible situation. like to catch something that was hanging on the tree, no one would catch it and hang there. mm. and minutes and minutes long, and until . would of hang on to the thing. it matters if he hangs on to you, how fast did you get out of it? no, it's not funny is it?. i, i, i had one with a . should of have a one . during her sleep, what was it? so you know, she was sleeping, he was laying beside her and he an egg from her hand or something. i'm serious. joking. it happened in germany about a year ago. yes, really, and that was . well her hand. i think inventing stories about it. no, no, , absolutely that's not possible. well have you heard what he said? , well, i, i thought it was quite amazing as well and i couldn't . right. and , wouldn't want you to take the recorder , well i didn't. what did you ? ah yes, yes, that was a . it's a, it's a mark in her face . we can use a lot of, of information about . means you must for the farm house is around, erm a harvest is just . they're doing a lot of advertising of shopping . my brother has a house in . are you pleased has he come with her to tea with you again? no, i saw him but he didn't . you know this is life. but he never got up a ref another reference and the kind of a position going on. i can't,yes, but what,. mm, swiss, germany what's that . that they're, no. so that in the vatican should allow eh priests to be married. to marry. to marry. aha. yes, why not? well i mean it's the first position ever of such sort. yes. . i think well,priests have the . yeah but maybe they're . i don't think it. mm. i find this so wonderful because it's a catholic place. yes. and then to allow something like that, i think it's religion. yes i was pleased to hear it, but with . ah,, he has complained now to the vatican that he , any more, because of, swiss the community doesn't give him the ah,, yes. the side of the . no. they whittle every money from him. no, we he don't supposedly don't have any money. aha. they tell me is . yes. i don't . why he complains to . he complains to the vatican. aha. because to the pope because that's the only one is still can complain to, the other one is to him. ah yes, of course, yes, yes. i don't think he will be able to,like this for a long time. no, it's like . because erm,. that's just some very interesting talk that i heard about,and one with erm, the porters and erm,. so, yuk , i would have not , she told us later what you think about . yes, i like the story about your . is she pretty his housekeeper? no. no. probably he's, he's not good looking . yeah. they have a little foot hole. what? they and they live with . we hear all types of stories about the . , funny lot to have. do you like it? , not her. really. oh. why not? they're a great intelligence you know.. quite funny, they're really qu they're really funny. we once had a neighbour who had and , i kept looking after that, that , and you know, i must say, i quite enjoyed it having . oh i had a lovely . yeah. , except for a, you know,. what? , well the , it was a . yes. and then someone took it once back to the , programme on . yeah. for someone took it . really? yeah, there was also, there was . did she with her? she, she . really? some everybody knew. how did you, how many hours did you take to come back? sure. yes. you came under . ah, they're not . took her to brussels. yes. takes seven to eight, eight hours. took me, i was, the,do doing all kind of roadwork on belgian and luxembourg highways and i was stuck in luxembourg for at least half really? just it was twenty seven . i just can't believe it, it friday. yeah. it was doing alright. yes. cos i was driving with the window open. i know your landlady. i bought you a bed, i bought you a chair and eh no,. just for you, what? i wonder who . i hope she . no there wasn't anyone after me . no. no. does she have difficulties to people ? what about that ? aha. what about your your friend from the north? still see him? is he gone? no, i haven't seen him since the . you haven't? i found swiss television really stupid, did you? aha. i really was disappointed. they're four years behind. i really thought that, i did appreciate really, er, when i came back, that the english, the english is much better anything else, don't you think so? that . not . not special. no, you'll . is sometimes if like last night, they have,a very nice production. what's the ? erm, the marriage of figaro. is it? the opera. well, when i was staying a fortnight . very nice, it was quite nice. really? i didn't. mm, production by the vienna. is it really? opera with . yeah. quite nice. you know i saw nothing of the sort when i for a fortnight in a . is now in, in ? no, not yet. not yet. still in brussels, yes? up to. what about, what's the new man like? well we don't know very much. well he's there surely? no. well he's still with a . you've obvious got no, there's no . but it is very,don't get along very well. what? or any more. any more they're er , doesn't talk any more . when there are some meetings or, he puts the reports on the desk of the secretary and . he's such a funny man. what about wife? yes, she'd like to go? i don't know. i heard her . yes, very briefly. why? it was the oh, is he, is he popular in this ? yes. yeah? they're all american. no. no. they're belgian, and french. really? are they going with him? no i don't think so. no. does, does . aha. came with a, a i think . aha. and eh, what of the other fellow ? yes, how is he? he's doing well, he had a,, i think he could have been berlin or somewhere in germany,it's called . he is a perfectly created, because his father liked to go to . no. yes. but why in germany ? i don't know, because they can i don't know. no, i don't know why. actually, it, it makes allusion to that's that . yes. yes. i, i do think so, i thought it that it would be . that's pretty , see any more? or it's helped a lot of people never see them . why? it eh, it, yes we might see them , because the, they call quite . wow. i know . is he still there? yes, but he's going to . for good? for good. yeah, oh, well i think he still gets on with things. yes. no, no , really, he's not on speaking term. yes. did he? he, no that's why he's so a little upset. thinks he's a little afraid for me that . so eh,if he wants to be by himself and . go his own way. whoever has to listen to that,and then . yes. i hoped you forgive. some are a competition, a snoring competition. if your father had ever fallen asleep. always. well, like that? but it is very much , same time. same time. later, it's like watching television, he sits there and . mika's going round the world. she is? don't you remember mika? yeah. yes, in august. she said nikita's earned so much, say i'll go round the world, you know the young ones. the old . it's incredible i trouble. yeah. yes we do. not to incredible place. yes, so she just and she'd like to go and teach for a living,. language. one professor can. and i have some of her one of her neighbours who, where did you go, i went to mexico to study yes. and now he's touring rome as well, took advantage of being left in mexico, travel all over south america and now i think he's going to do australia and . really? okay. eat well. just back in the kitchen. oh dear, have to wash up. no i'll do that. no, no, no, i've forgot about it. can't we do it ? no, you know why? cos i've and so i, i just yes. you have the so badly. hello tape, what? one does forget it. yes. no. yes, try to. it very funny cos i want to, yeah, because i i had such a study on, on united states many rating systems or , it'll into those houses like . yes, i know him. and so i, you know some people would have, why i don't know whether they on they're television so you can and check out what, what they want, whatever. i see, yes. the is quite difficult to, to work it out and, and analysis these people, you know, when you don't want to see themselves watching people knowing them to watch dynasty or dallas or something, so they on purpose watch very interesting documentary . yes. oh i know, no. but it's just . i did . yeah, but, they're anyway numbered, what does it matter, you know, it's just a number. i know,. what? yeah, well. it, it has been , anyhow they're about having the thing and so they don't really do it any more? and so, well they, sometimes do it,, because it's not very, always they're really on it. it. ha, people can do all sorts of . so, okay, i give in,. i'm sorry to say that . i know. , no knives, so. , i have no money so,. i have , i have some. oh honey i . . you're you can . yes. yes it's , that's about, i come from bru brussels, i . five, five or six. do you know what it is? yes, eh . and when i came, erm, the first, first month i came to brussels i thought oh . there's even one in geneva. is there? mhm. can you go there? i think you can't go to paris. yes. oh really? say so. couldn't of been, i have . it's possible isn't it? yes. there's a picture here of . yes, i know it's you've seen it, how often? so why didn't , and then as well. yes, i think, i'd like to . it's stupid because i've never really ventured brittany, so i, i don't know brittany very well. quite like , yes. so that's why i'd liked to go. aha, shall we . i saw it . there you are. so, the house more this way, so the but still. i mean you know you couldn't go five hundred on your left because you . aha. no. you . shall i? i don't know. no i didn't i'll try one. not social at . really? no,. and there was a big and eh, the farmer said i could have all of this, his wife wanted to , so i, i gathered amount towards wife. she came, she, it's an awful lot of bother, you know, and erm, i but she said well i haven't got time to do it, if you take as well. so i had so much. mhm. that means you can see how long it lasted. so , do you think? it's just here, how far down is it? very far down. is it? mm, not very far. no. , it's the lowest point of the . the more northern point, is it? the south the southern point. southern, what? it's the most southern point of the bridge. it's the it's the last one . where would it be? so it's eight, number eight. well,. oh, oh, okay. normandy. no. no. normandy are the one, two, three. yeah, and mm. i see, that . aha seven years old . which one? no . seven years old. there's my , my great grandmother. you have? mm. really? it's from switzerland, my, we have , still have some where dad's fifteen years old. no. but it's, they're all gone know. she made erm,all the time. how do they get after fifteen years? they're nice,, which is . mm. she still has a, how you say, very still in, in alcohol in . no. fifty nine. . so, let's hear it. look like . it's a painting . nineteen. no. oh, nineteen, it's down here. i don't know how they look it's down here. no, that can't be right then. , i think it's you have to count them. mm. page numbers,. another stand out , yeah . why don't they put it on the ? that's the one. yes, i know , mm. i think i've got something , it's in between, the one in the middle. know it. that's the one in the middle.. what have they ? they put it on here instead of there. . he would of , you look at the page, we've been number eight. ah,. no. no, i don't think, well, colour. that's nice. it's yeah, but it might be just a , you know , you might . i don't think so, i think it's a . , and some in, inside town saturday night. mm. as well. yeah. switzerland. i don't know. , i don't know, but i've never lied until now, then all of a sudden it , i just can't mhm. i think it's through the , it's difficult to lose them again now, i don't know, i don't know. if you always have, have to be careful, you know you're a bit used to a temper, you know . ah, they're not all the same . no, no, well i think they are they are. oh, i see, aha. , i wouldn't go there. no. well it's so crowded . is it? aah, it's right, all the germans, very, very crowded. photograph it. don't know how to. oh i see,. when should one go ? is nice. well. less crowded. less crowded to . it wouldn't be in september. mhm. we'll go in september then . no,at night. nice no, i wouldn't go to nice. not in the . it's too big . is it? yeah. isn't it? here . it would be nice in these places in as well, you know. only . is he? yeah. nice little village. is it? does, does that mean you can only go in winter here? i don't think so, no, it must be open in the summer as well. yeah . , oh that looks nice. i haven't seen all this new area. , present . that's on the . i see. that's right, see were the water is, it's right on this side. it looks demolish it looks like a derelict place, in, ah what's, what's that on the ? that's the sculpture they put up . is it all made up now? through there. is it all made up now? yeah. but i don't know if it's still there, is thing they put it in last year i think, but i . i these boats , what's them? that that's like a sculpture. this? yes. oh, i see. , it takes a whole no it's not that, that, you know, covers the whole water. yeah. would you like the last ? no, i oh alright then, i have to . do you like the bread? yes, it's very nice, yes. it's alright? you know, i'm not that . that's what i wanted to get to you. oh no, oh it's wonderful. that's what i wanted to get to you. really? round one, but the store was closed, so i'd what? yeah. what a surprise , don't you think it's wonderful? it's beautiful. it really makes that room. mm. you know, when i came in, i thought oh it's heaven. mm,i'd love to, but, mm . so anything i could offer that would be nice, oh she said i don't know, now , but i'll tell you when you come this afternoon and so that she told me there was around five or six o'clock and it was too late so i said well i'll go on monday morning, but they er were all closed on monday morning. i know i think they're closed no. i thought they would know , but they, they are closed at tw two o'clock in the afternoon, they open at two in the afternoon. do they? maybe in those galleries they do, i just don't, don't really know. i know the bakers . it's like all the, you know, the office, and they said all of them were on the opening today, all, all the stores. they have meat shops they have about five in brussels. no, there's one in and there's one across cafe in the gallery . have you seen the one in the corner? the . no. you have, on one side you have, romance with the music it's the record store. yes. just on the other, across from it. next to it, next to them, the record, you have cafe, and just across from cafe you know cafe. oh, where, where it, i see. where we where we met. yes. you have the, a little passage that goes through what is called mini cafe, and just there at the corner is a very big . really? ah, is that the ? forest. forest oh. forest. i've never gone there before. did you know that yeah. have they had many . sun is bright. so are you going ? yeah, two. where you have done everything in half an hour. where it just pours out of your ears. , yeah . mhm. do you want to go in the garden? mm, the sun's coming back. we shall put a big erm, jumper. i shall put some washing out. it's a ghastly colour isn't it? i know, i think a funny . ghastly colour. did you buy the just buy them? no,. i don't know . have more tea? want more tea? i'll have some yes. so where we going? i mean you want,we go on, we go . and then eh,, he says . that is the closest one i think to them. is it? is it? yes, i have . well maybe he can go and, you have to go and, do you have to go and ? no. no. no, i don't know, maybe. maybe you can just . i think it . yes, yes i think i think it's a week minimum, i think it's a week minimum. is it? i think, but i'll ask for . erm, in the same place? aha. yeah. so . well i don't think parish . . so maybe do it again next year, but i think the offer is for this year. i suppose some place are nice, also the hotels are not, you know what i mean? no, i don't. we don't know that do we? yes, the trouble is , for pictures you can't really tell. what's that one? no. that looks pretty terrible. really well i don't. can't be that, no. no, no, it's probably, it's probably a small little . it's here. it's yes. look share . i don't . it's not on the , this is on the, that's on the , that's a . eh, i, i don't know, it's quite large, i found it's quite big as one, i don't know,, i know very little of . aha. . and what is, what, what do they have ? that looks nice. is that nice? yes, well that's not too bad. looks down here. where is it? oh it's there, erm it's sort of a water an . yeah. an . well, i'm, i'm taken with brittany really. i really liked brittany. i think i'm taken with brittany as well. looks nice, the villa is . it is nice ,. i've seen , it's all this one, it's alright but it's nothing special. no,. yeah, this looks exciting, yeah. it's quite nicely located . yes. very well located. aha, and this looks not far from the . it looks nice, doesn't it? yeah. but i think when i look at it i wasn't one . very short . yeah. i think next to the . that one somehow doesn't look bad at . yeah. i think i . so we would have to go, we will be here, we'd have to go there. no, go higher. no, about that,. no, no, that's, that's, that's where we ah yes, that's a . yeah.. about here. no, you have to go . , will be whereabouts? is there. back here. eh, no, i'll tell you with, think what this number's what like this . how do they work? you have to count them from the first, this is one, one, two, three, four where do you find them? four, this right there. five,. gosh it's so , yes of course it's there, well i'll just got right up and , you look for me down there, what did i think? of course it's . , that's it,, just there, this is . so it's, the numbers are right? yes, but i mean, you have to, you not to not know that you have to count it from the first one doesn't matter. but not to looks nice, but it's normandy, i don't . i would like to go too. to brittany, you told me. oh in normandy you don't know, what did sing about, erm, oh fleur, oh fleur, yes, all , they're supposed to be long very beautiful. fleur . painted many . yeah. that's a yeah. yeah. i suppose isn't it? erm, to erm,. yeah. have you been there? no. no. is really shipping things, is shipping . yes it does look like, yeah, it doesn't look too dangerous. just car ferry. mhm. doesn't look it's an old . i think it's good for you if you to you know. yeah. what about st. raphael, can you take weekends there, if i weekend in st. raphael, and then go there? yes. can you? three days. mhm. are the prices there? yes. but we don't know what. well i don't know what are. the . i think it's about how to take probably. well it's not very expensive. how much, i don't, i don't remember. she said , she said three thousand. three thousand. no,three thousand french . yes, of course that's what she means, she, i think she means . no, i don't think it's, no, no, it's, it's very, it's under ten thousand dollars than francs, i know that. there is eighteen thousand francs, so a week? no, normally a week in september. aha. so it's not ? belgium. but i don't think it's three thousand i thought it was four thousand. no, he said three, i know three's yes. well my mother's is, is now. yeah. she went, i don't know, somewhere in brittany i think. yeah, aha, well she might stop there, if i know whether or not mhm, so she, will know already when she comes, she comes down, she's, she . she, she might, she's coming back . no. could you rely on her taste? yes because so many different place, eh you know,hotel . yes. mm, i just had a map somewhere around . yes, it's under , it's under , but the one, i know, that she go to this place, ooh it's a yucky place, i don't know she went to . the one i do not , she went somewhere and . is it? anyway, i think i shall take this she should know it as soon as yeah i think there's nothing you, you have to take a you know, nothing under three thousand, even that is cheap for days, isn't it? even that that's so. if you go to for a few days . we've come to stay as long as you like really, up to a week. up to a week? but i like it, i like to go to , yeah, i've got even friends there,, i don't know whether you know san ? yeah. he's, he's a friend of my friend isobel, well isobel doesn't know him that well. i know which, i know she got married last year. he, he yes , yeah, yeah. yes, i saw him. you know him? alright he, he's probably down there with his wife and my friend and invited me down there to stay in her house but i don't think it's september actually, so i don't,some . okay? alright. that's it. work it's about time we did it. haven't done any.. fill my machines. it's funny they have so many of these black , when you touch them it's . mm, now i won't . irish coffee. ah, yeah. plain dessert chocolate per pound, chocolate, luxury chocolate, i don't know what that is, i . , i know what luxury . yes . it's erm, for example,, you know the very dark ? ah yes, yes, that's good isn't it? that's nice. i think that's, that's chocolate. i see and what is ordinary cooking chocolate? i have no idea . eh? i don't know. is there such a thing as ? is just one. might be ordinary than the . yeah, but it's good, i know, i like . and when you touch it you get don't you, you just can't help it though. it's rather stupid to have a fat dinner in a cookery book, what? i know. , no , no well pages already. eh, he felt his erm, yeah. have a look. oh. nice isn't it? this, look,. i'm not sure, she said she came yesterday yeah. but they still have a lot of . yeah yeah. you just have to take eh? that's very much better . . brussel sprouts . yes. it, it sounds nice, doesn't it? i mean, i just, i, i, think that . yet, could you can. yes but who wants to make the , nobody, course you can. it's not that you can't. lovely eh?it's, eh, man, man,you know. mulled wine,. . yeah, but what is it in french, eh? yes, right. spice, he have to take spice . looks nice all that stuff. i can that . home made . like at lunch. you know she's , i think she got it from a very good chef she said somewhere. stop it, you want . ah. . yeah, some others are nice it looks already a, you know, it looks already old fashioned yeah. doesn't it? have very good, eh,. do you want us to go to the store ? the store, yes, i have to . are you coming? yes. it's so funny, eh, ah, that's emma's, i took yesterday, i don't know where to put it. i have a, a you know, which was too full, too thick, too full, so i thought i, i open a bit and took it out, so i have to find a place for it.. so, we haven't got any apples, we have to get , in any case coffee reminds how much, coffee as well. , you know, are you . necessary ingredient . i forget the stuff. i still . have you noticed ? yeah. nice one of those. . it's erm,you know.. how can i talk . there's a very good . is it already raining? yes now its raining. is it? yes. yes and quite hard. well it starts quite hard. yes. so that's all the trouble you know. washing is not much but the drying is the yes have you got a drying machine? no. no we have to hang it too. you hang it out we haven't the only thing we have is an . ah yes still that is something yeah. it's quite good. it's quite nice yeah yeah. no we don't have well my in fact our wash is done by noun noun. and she has a drier so it's fine. ah she dries everything. yes. but now she's gone on holiday for a whole month and so we don't have a drier. no. and then we have to dry it outside as well hang it out . oops! oh no! all right bring this. i tell you what i saw that coming. i put it here. it's stupid anyway. let me see. it's so much easier than when i have things already together. ah what comes next? that? then big things. yes. these? no big things first so i can we put it here? oh but it's so wound it's taking me a lot of time outside. oh it is that one yes and that. that that now that. you can take and now these things huh? this and that that thing now the because we are not supposed to iron them too much. there we go. there we go. laugh laugh wait wait. thank you. there we go. ah. yeah all right? that's it. that's it. waiting for good weather. . so so when do you want to go? do you want to go now or should i what shall we do? what ever you want. straightens. you know we can't we may just as well go. shall we? i think so. we might as when does it close at? five thirty it's two thirty or we go now or we go in about an hour but we can't go later i should think, can we? no, not later than three thirty or shall we go at three thirty? yes we can do that. i should go, coming do you want to read a bit? yes i'll just all right come here and i shan't be all right. i tidy up here and then we go. i won't take long who phone up to to fit windows and and so on and so on. they are always doing that mm mm and then they always say when can we come and see you with your husband? i said well you or this evening you know. but they doesn't want it. so well you coming today? oh no we wan't both. so i said well no um er er i shall be by myself. they say well no we would like to have it's nice to have both. so i said well you will just have to be content with me because you'll because my husband has no time. so that's it so he did come. but some what is it for? for the windows. yes. no for the back door. for the back door. because we have to have another door so they giving me a third off. i shan't take it if it's something i don't like you know even if they give it free. so i just did, thursday morning let me not forget. yeah anyway you its funny he wanted to insist that my husband should be there and i said i can decide don't worry. i get the costs and then meet you to my husband and he still wanted . well they think they loose time if it's only a woman you see? mm mm or they will have to come again. yes i just said leave it or lump it! you know that kind of thing. and the first time usually you have young women phone up from home or from somewhere to do this telesec telesaling huh? it's called telesaling. and sometimes it's a man sometimes it's a woman and you know very much they have learned the lines. this time it was an old man. and he was rather nice. would rather have an old man. very friendly nice voice you know. hm hm the first time an older person rings and he sort of, have more patience with him or something. so ah that is beautiful. yes what is that. that is a contemporary is it colour ah because there is a as well isn't there huh? ya. yes and he painted and it was terrible no oh oh ugly thing. really? so you wouldn't sell any? oh no does he sell? i think he does in his place? i think he does. i see who decides who accepts things. experts. how many? over in zurich? no. london london and zurich. contemporary zurich. everything work which is contemporary it is decided is one man? no it is a woman a woman? a director who'll decide. she's good? hm hm very good. ah. she decides? she decides. whether she accepts the one or not to sell and she er mm, oh that's quite nice. that? really? is it?. very nice. it's a very nice little piece. very small it's about fifty. how much bid? twelve thousand swiss francs. twenty pounds twenty fifteen to twenty fifteen to twenty yeah. that's quite nice too. four hundred and sixty hmm hm. fifty thousand. does it very much depend on the size? also depends on the size. always? no not always. not always. also can have beautiful little miniature. mm can't you? which are classically beautiful and, what's that ah there's another one isn't it? ya he's a sort of a friendly painter? hm hm what? yes. he was born in was he? hmm fifty thousand. ah i wish i had that money. i would like to have it i want a do you? yeah i like him too . he has much stronger colours. huge things and beautiful things stronger colours and all that isn't it? ya. the problem with that painting is that i didn't know if it was a real because there was nothing no signature whatsoever. no? nothing. no no even did that happen on the back did that happen not even on the back does he sometimes not do. many do. many do. ya. this fellow doesn't he signs, he doesn't no no no and not on the back no but you have a certificate. yes then it's fine by seeing in the catalogue and er uh huh. so that's no problem is it? no there is some i ask him why he did it he said oh well he has such a long name such a very long name spoils the picture but he can put it he can put it on the back yeah alright i just i don't know why he doesn't. he didn't give me satisfactory answer he said oh i'll think of it artists never give satisfaction why? because they're artists really? they very sore people, and they're very stubborn most of them so whence they have an idea and can't get them away from it very very easily uh huh it's very hard is it? and they change their minds and things, hmm hmm do they? oh yes you know sometimes an artist says the picture is his and two years later he denies and says it's a false one hmm hmm. yeah why would he do that? because he doesn't like it anymore? or yes that's one thing because he doesn't like it anymore or he might have had a a problem with selling it to someone or something and just to take revenge or something he says yes it's never been mine . you wouldn't be would you? no you've never seen another one like that, no yes ya. ya he's a bit mystical isn't he? mmm. nice huh huh. i think he's probably the most would you not say so? yes indeed. i think he is. is he always quite some yes yes we don't have anything from . that's a very beautiful . very very. that's him. yeah. another sales another let's see what he says. this old man made now that woman ring. er supervisor and so on. she again said when will you have that's stupid she's all right we'll come it's thursday and then we will show you in you and your husband and i said no not my husband you better leave it you know. that's right she said no it's how you wish. i said no you know i am alone. just incredible. it's incredible. gosh! interesting. you're not allowed to make your own decisions. no well you see they just don't think that somebody can decide and who will who's the owner of the house and things like that? you know. probably they think i am a chamber maid here. it's it's rather pathetic. why or the mistress who buys the i really don't fall. have you seen? why do they bother? usually they do try to tell they want usually most people are there but how do they they never together? you know on a thursday? they will know. they meet you. they come and oh sit and come at midnight as long as there are two. nobody's been so insistent yet you know. they all try to get you both but er i have decided the other things i mean i tell patrick and i know and i just find out. i shan't have wanting their quote anyway and then i decide. we decide together. patrick doesn't know for you know one log from another. much more he's no clue anyway. so and he will ask questions and if i don't know how to answer them i'll have to phone again phone and ask them yes. oh that was really funny . ta would be a third one now you wait. yes she said if all consultants managers directors and so you know. now a consultant will come she said. oh they have titles before they know anything they can keep their bloody door so have you been in ? no it's a very boring town. oh. ya not one little shop which is interesting not one. about three or four big bigger high street shops you know like alders and what is the next? army and navy. you know these shops? no you know they all have the same thing. so exactly the same brands same things. if you can't find it in one you find it in another but it is all the same thing. it's all you know another thing i can really ask technical questions. a man wouldn't dare because he doesn't want to show how ignorant he is. i can ask them a stupid questions. i get everything answered and so and so and you learn quite a lot and i just ask. you know i don't care whether they think i'm stupid or so you see. a man would not do it i have noticed. hmm? it's true you know? mm this sort of and then your mind you. . it's not raining now i could have put everything out. put it out now. it is quite clear you would, would you? hmm hmm all right. you know all these people come and install bathrooms and all that. not one of these is really um professional. they are very good they can do electricity then tiling you know they are awfully good all round but there is never a professional finish to anything mm you know what i mean? there just isn't mm because but they are very good all rounders. most of them. you know? for but everything is so so not wholly satisfactory so i'm just scared to have them in the house. i am always disappointed. that's why i take so long over it. have you seen uh the noise you you the toilet handle makes? the one upstairs? yes. when it fills fills the cistern fills up anyway ploomp through the whole house. yes you notice? no i haven't noticed. i'm surprised. so okay i haven't seen i must have a tiny little book. book here. are they printed? let me see. printed in geneva. are they? hmm. does he know it's really i know it's really but i don't know whether they have a casino there. they do what? really? there yeah it's very hot no? it's nice too. it's beautiful. it's in yeah it's really wonderful. why at the same time? ah that one. no. you have one yes. kevin is a really well known no? why? oh no no that's because those are pictures it's like a chapter. yeah but this is are there there you go. oh i see. see? it's a new chapter yes a new chapter because here is another gosh isn't it good? very good do you know isobel's godmother has it? it's another don't think it's that? no. he's also who? one in france. he's swiss but hew lives in france and this yeah well he too. don't think it matters for a . oh i like him it's incredible. hm! quite ugly those those by same now? they're a bit like stone. do you know what i mean? like a painting of a sculpture? mm. mm what? yeah even that even the one next to it yes? close how it you see this. oh i see. . isn't she voluptuous? this one here. i don't know i'm not i'm not too keen on them. i don't know what they're terrible i don't know whether they are terrible. i just doesn't you know. they are all absent minded. i like this better. lots lots better. hm hmm ah hah! because he has no colours look with these sort of colours there might be better. now you see. you see it all. aren't you lucky. all of those. yes i have to carry them all over the place. no? i had to get to them through the once you get to them isn't one the sort of the young up-coming expensive. no? you only take established. eh? yes you do? this is one john. he's not expensive here. oh i don't like him.. oh that's terrible well not bad. that's not too bad this woman well i think its always when it's in black and white you know oh that's the most terrible figure. look at her feet! yeah ugh! but i don't like his face terrible terrible the boy is nice open eyes wagner wagner. do you those will go up quite high. why is he called why is he called er er if it's i don't know if its even french and er he's a german? i mean a german. it's pretty expensive now. hm hm what? i mean this one the one of the church will go up. yeah very much i think. it's already a hundred that's because it's a picture of zurich. it will go up quite a lot. what? really? yeah tonight? like it isn't nice it is a beautiful thing. you really like it? hmm hmm. better than that. but even that is nice. that one's nice as well. uh huh yeah. i don't like so much street ah mm scenes. streets? no i don't don't know why. hmm hmm i think i have been you know. mmm mm i hate it yeah i used to like it so much. oh! i can't stand it i like it. you can't? there are so many on sale on sale are they? at christies in london all the time. every impressionists sales yeah i think there are like pictures they sell on doesn't that's why they don't sell any more? well no they don't they don't? well some do some do well i remember i like to take a while i can't stand the most of them. so that's nice. yes oh that's him isn't it?? mm mm yes. isobel has quite a few ah mm picture book. you know i love. you happen to have you have some of those? yes yes they're nice aren't they. yeah it's all this his colours and these that's quite nice. no? i can oh i'd love that you know? i'd love a mountain. this is actually black crayon. yes yeah it's crayon yeah. it looks nice even. that's nice even. that's nice too. carlinor or lina. lina. is he? hm hm no some but he lives in uh ah. s'pose he paints up there. that looks bit . nice. mmmm look that lovely colours what? yes i'd really like some do you have good water colours as well? hmm hmm yeah? some nice ones. uh ha. oh yeah here we go. that's a beautiful. that's that's le crux de la font no one and you always made yeah there's a beautiful do you always this is very sensimental. i like it you know he's like a parent isn't he? yeah yes and the pictures not too good. there is when you look at the picture it's so beautiful. yeah. look at his chain here. ah how much? not even that much. it's really beautiful.. there's a very nice exhibit in until august of all his work why in ? which in centre centre i see yeah. and reproduced. that will be no not that because it's private for many for that you will see yourself. i thought he was swiss in here it says innes. innes is in switzerland. is it? yeah. gosh he's yeah that one. he's such, has he been meant to paint many of this old man? has he? many because there there are some in public galleries hmm hmm collections. and and her too yes. very many kind of, similar yeah i suppose they all look alike. but maybe not him. no? no. hmm but very much like this yeah sort of very beautiful isn't it? yeah. mmm he painted this quite differently from from the painter but from the thing. the farmers are from the way he paints farmers. that's another of him. hmm yeah they have, i recognise them you know? there can be so much love huh hmm hmm so much respect no? don't you think so? and dignity huh? i love them. yeah. that colour. here you've got your cows i hate that picture well i don't particularly like cows then er but then i think they're well done. heard of him but yeah that's a horrible picture yeah. now all photography here. no no no no he's quite well done isn't he? yes why is it all in french? because it's a french speaking ah i see wait a minute. ah yes ah i see. but he's a writer. three hundred and ninety-nine. where is it? it's probably not. it might be not be. i see. very perceptive it's not all no in here. might be a book ah yes. ah i see. yeah because he is a writer too. might be a book. here it is. you're right. here are posters are they? yes what? they are already how old are they? posters? nineteen twenty four. yeah of course nice posters are also very very very. all nineteen twenty four the one which is going must be going to fetch a lot this the one with the hat. back there. this one? no this one no that one. yes. why? oh! yes. why? i dunno know because its so good? yeah must be quite rare. said uhmm yeah it's a work are quite looked for. really? because they had a good artist. yes yeah he had to. i like the railway yeah artists very much. too. you know? do we have some realways? take this one also. by far the most expensive. i know this one. very stylish at home we have one done by those there by yes yes and i was so sad because it's it was some water went on it. so all the time you can see that water on it. it's too bad because i think we could have fetched about five thousand swiss francs for it. well there are here about two two between two and three. why should you have five? because it's a nice farm it's a very nice . it's a very nice one. who put it together? this? er the printer yeah? you i did the catalogue so i looked all the information up with through the three to do that. yeah a lot of work and then we give it to the printer yeah and he in a certain way and he decides but i have no i don't know who did decide sure you know print . it's quite a lot of work to do on this cataloguing. yeah because you have to find all the literature everywhere it's printed what the problems is where the printed picture comes from size yes the size one that sort of thing. that you know is very interesting that i arranged all the materials through that you know it's scandalous that's it's carton fits. yeah or you don't what? can you see it by looking at it without touching it? sometimes you can but not always 'cause you have different kind of canvases yes and er ah i'm not sure whether i like him no he's also very well he's very old fashioned. yes he are he is very very nice peace he's very sweet. all right right there's one piece that i love wait a minute eighty-seven. looks like . hmm? i have not heard it. there's more . yeah i have seen some more here. this is nice. that's nice very nice yeah. those are very nice too. yes hmm hmm. but in quite different styles aren't they. yeah. have you ever been in that place? yes i love do you love yes it looks nice most beautiful piece. so well framed in . frame looks like you have white glazing on a yeah yeah. very fine lines yes i have been to la fete in seventies. ah huh. nice? very nice. great spectacle, is it? hmm hmm. yes? yes? there will be it's every fifty years or something like that ah huh yes? or every no every twenty five years no yes i'm serious that's something terrific. yes yes. yeah. i thought every five years no no every twenty five i think really? yeah. its very 'cause i know it is when i was there oh i will be able to see it once or twice more in my life and that's it yeah? yeah. aren't they beautiful too uh? have you got one in your house no? no you haven't? no we had one but not a very ornate one. we hoped that we didn't have no we had electric valve er central heating but we have very old central heating. a very beautiful very high ones high radiators? yes is that nice? oh one of the big one huge one. yes? it's very beautiful because it has gorgon that's called it's i've forgot it what? i never seen a radiator what? where is it? the whole thing a gorgon no not the whole thing. it's part of it? it's um cream coloured and there's a a golden design in it. no? who would be the client -international? no mostly swiss really? yes. yeah? except for the biggest pieces yeah gosh! it's all ready yes getting very would you love to have it? classic. why are they so expensive? because they're very rare why? are they rare? there are only about a hundred made yes? yes. special collections who makes them they were made for special occasions were they? for instance? they're nice aren't they? we just for ? yes i suppose so. unclear yes? not always. sometimes they were sold in shops as a special limimited edition. just as a swatch collector's . yes really. i mean now exactly we send out about dunno how many letters to ask if they have anything to sell. so we the whole collection since eighty three. when did it start eighty three eighty three sure? yeah. yeah you have any they have the whole thousands? no not thousands but yeah hundreds? yes hundreds because the books come out then to be edited yeah really? that quick? yeah is that because they are too expensive? no how much are these? oh! they can go very high now. about ten thou i dunno. the middle one is the is the most expensive no? that tell me low ah the no one is twenty five one is thirty seven and and hundred and seventy eight that means he threw three together. come and see can't be forty forty five. look. which one is this? twenty five and thirty seven no i no this one is the most expensive one how do you know? but how do you know? this is that one is seventy eight. is not what ah hah i see. yes this is twenty five yes. see and this is thirty seven. but why they'll they'll be too late ah it is written here. i'm sorry yes it's one thousand francs to two thousands but it's not possible. forty thousand and you paid i even wanted to buy that one and this one too. when when i when they were out i didn't even see it yes i've seen it have you seen it? yes and i know i have one which is totally black with here the caldon needle yes you know and supposedly it should be worth a lot. i dun't know they don't make it anymore? no i almost thought that too. and then i have the jelly fish which is the totally transparent one mmm mm the problem it's very expensive when it doesn't say swatch and it's all white nothing so it's just a swatch and so on it's probably not as much have you seen it? yeah i haven't seen any of them i have seen those two. this one i have never seen before. can you imagine? can you? in how many years? eighty three and eighty nine eighty nine no! no no not three years yes eighty nine yes eighty nine hah! two years hah! it must have cost a lot at the start but they but they are all the same huh? no but those you couldn't buy like that. this was a is an artist who made a special limited edition of them yeah and where do you buy them? i don't know. probably you could buy them some stores have them for maybe a week or so. they were all sold i dunno. no? there's in switzerland and i see but they must have cost a lot yes? i think so as what? well they are exactly the same size as the others i know but you know we have a serie limit edition is full up. during swatch watches did he? yes no i didn't know. hmm hmm in belgium they were what did they look like? they were all kind of silk covers with the painting in the middle huh huh and the they cost at that time the swatch costed about one thousand three hundred thousand francs and they costed about two thousand eight hundred i think ah huh did they? must be they were all the same no i have seen just bigger ones black but very yes those are called which are very expensive but not forty one no and they have been very much but i though that swatch cost that much no there are but some types before in the beginning all swatches were the same price ah huh . it's that one which just with the tiger in gold no more? no and i saw it and i thought ah i saw it in zurich. i'll get that i like it so it's er i didn't that i know how but i bought it you got? at easter time yes i bought it at easter time ah you've got it? and then i amd they said i think that one is worth something and you have the men? hmm hmm and the men the woman as mm mm yes have you seen yeah? yes yes? rather nice? yeah but and the one's too late i like that one too and i wanted to buy it as i've never seen do you think every country gets different ones? yes no well some countries don't get all all mm yeah. for example well i don' know which swatch really but on omega up for example there are omega watches in belgium which you can't buy in switzerland can't they? which are only made for export. for example my dad's brother omega which you couldn't find in switzerland no? which was only made for export. do you think a lot of people buy watches? yes yes a lot of makes then there can't be very much left. well the market is quite large do you think? well i managed a collect a small very decorative. i see forty thousand in how many years? two years. two years!? yes i cannot cost forty thousand i mean the one who bought that you know he must laugh now. why should we and i would be very happy you know and things like that do you really think it's that much money no. you would get it? i would never give that. but do you think someone will pay that? i don't i don't know. i have no idea. 'tis nice 'tis maybe over estimated too i see yeah ya so that if the goes up to thirty thousand the reserve might be large enough to give it to sell it for that price. for example sometimes they overestimate certain works of art and you wonder you know during the sale you see it's estimated forty to fifty thousand so you think they'll never give it to you for less. sometimes a gets up to thirty and then they give it to the person yeah it depends then one wonders why. it's just because or they over estimated it or it's the price you know they wanted to get they wanted to get yeah yeah it's yes well my dear look next time i have all again next time round. must have how did you do that? or it that last time? nine do you like that? would you ever like that? must be for you too not the one with lowry. no why not? very big wouldn't you wear it? no i don't think so i think that will put your that should be good for you. really flowery can i need a hat with it? really well you know i always think sometimes you'd like to be sort of be crazy wouldn't you? no? go over the top? yeah you can do that at home you know. with sudden house comings or something you can really get to be very sober and you would love to explode huh? yeah you could do it wear colours like that at home could you not? hmm hmm. hm. colours are very wild jeans no? wouldn't you like that? yeah that's sure sure big hat i could wear big hats. i love hats yeah? i'd like to wear hats yeah but you can yeah. actually there there's sure a very nice in brussels there's a nice . would you? there's a you know picture. there's a very nice i would like crazy hats not plain not plain. no if you have a plain lady she'd give you looks then it's nice hmm hmm if its very if it's very plain. but i love our country. i love our country. well i just i think i'll work in a summer well why don't you? here you can really eat your heart and no body will look round why don't you? i should you should i always really? then there's a very nice hat um designer in brussels. he's called elvis compilio. yeah he's totally crazy. ha for men or women? men and women both. yeah and he had this kind of who are his clients? young people yes yes young people and he has a hat which i love but it's quite crazy. it's kinda those buried in the garden it's something in between a baseball hat and a and a jockey i don't know what a baseball hat is it's like round yes like this and with a flap oh how awful! oh! i hate those. don't come here like that i'll not let you in. well it's a very nice one it's not i don't like those hats. but it's it's not a it's not a it's much nicer. it's a very cap it's sort of have these strings things sticking out i just don't like it whatever it is. i love this hat why? i don't know it's so funny that's not crazy well it's it's these the model i thought you were what? i would put up a huge that would have been rather but i come out here but i cannot see you know you can just just get them i seen some in that yes ah yes house you know for a few pence. go and get one. i see marks and spencers. do you want to see it? no no? why? boring all right. you know i always we shall be too late by the time we get out the shops will all be closed when i arrive so many so very often it happens but for me too i shall go just half an hour do you think we said we would go at three thirty so we have to go until we find a parking and i don't know what, so we're going to sing today it doesn't say it doesn't say? it says outside maybe we come out together make it wait where no it doesn't say six times twentyfive o'clock. uh huh that means so that's three times this that i ate three of the two hundred and ten grams is it? six times twenty five grams no. six times twenty hundred and twenty and a hundred and fifty grams. so i see you ate three i ate three well i eat the double i ate three a day three of those a day every day? every day. oh no. well i'm not every day that i eat the double. yeah you can just say very nice something. yeah you can just say i like the i think we did well to buying bread sorry? i think we did well to buy bread did we? yes? as you start making toast you know ah i can't get it in. it's this pocket. where should i put the mince? up here. no no i have a place for the mince as yet. i can't get my in. so. ah so these buns where am i? they're a little ah there's too much are they crumbly? no. oh dear! that happens so often you know. all well i'll have patrick have this one here is twelve pounds. are they? yes well let's put them back in safe place oh no no stop it so where are they?one of these salads and you come here sainsburys with or yes so much nicer you really think so? i mean just little ideas like this you know putting recipes and things yeah yeah they do it's so nicely done yes ah huh you don't have to have that? no? no. there is nothing like that no nothing like it where are the courgette? courgette right here thank you there's another lettuce here. another lettuce then courgette never had so much but i really adore them in the maybe that's i have such a small treat you see that's not to eat not to eat that for rice and things. that's a cold remedy. that's the parsley. when the and there's a pepper no? ah yes. i don't know there's another pepper you see yeah the orange i haven't got much more room. this one oh yes this one that's one but don't know if you have to mackerels that's it. you haven't got any rices ah yes that must go in yes and that's potatoes and onions to go in it that's it i suppose that's all? onions go in what is this garlic? yeah well that's i that up. pack the bag oh! the table's these i put these here. usually what what's the matter with me. i am not usually so uh they are my little potatoes. looks like a jersey. you see? yes so we shall have mashed potatoes this is for mashed potatoes. do you like mashed potatoes? yeah okay you have to remember oh! mushrooms ah yes they have to go in no no i'll makes something tonight ah yes since i'm ooh! where the meat has to go? i really feel relaxed yes? that's wonderful ah good i thought i would be dead by now yes? often i the exams but but i am not knackered at all no? no what has happened? i really don't know oh i hope it's a good sign yes i'm sure it is. because i think i shall write much better then you're too bottled up. yes don't you? yes. yes i think yes i tell myself it's not the end of my life you know it is oh no you have to think i'll do well not in evening no not the end of your life no that's what i mean you're right to do but we both have to watch out just in case shall we? hmm hmm yeah er in case it brings here you are oops ah how do i want it? i think this way. please. there it's a nice colour a friendly colour yes isn't it yeah? i have many like this at home yeah? yeah. it is very friendly. all right yes i see i just do it you know just out here. no but no gosh! last week i had to put my night dress into so it was all white it was all white because that burnt fingers wouldn't come off and i laughed and laughed and laughed and i put it in and you know what happened then. oh we have more chinese in seven yes. we choose seven they last a day when they're old look my mother what they really last a day. stephan help yourself. the rose bush was not was not pruned this year so i doubt if we're going to have many flowers. but there are. see look! look at this just one rose. but they just whither very quickly. so whether to leave but that sort is waiting. look macho. yes? ooh! heavy this is. never make up for a is that a male. no have you made arrangements to meet him? yeah tomorrow tomorrow hmm hmm where're you seeing him? by the sycamore gardens in kensington. i thinks it's near denise. what is she doing now? i taught her the flat the finnigan and arms? arms must be very well off then no captain she has her six months leave. you know it's goping to be sold this flat. did he? and she's going to look for a flat somewhere else of course yes but that's where rothchild lives in finnimore house. yes. yes. ahh. she live in england mmm she yes yes does ian too? where is he working? mm? can't remember which one hmm? one of those old ones yeah in london or in brussels or? no here. yeah hmm hmm yes it's always a difficult subject. it's a most it is not an international subject. but there is such a thing as international law there is but i mean it is and more and more people chooses more and more hmm but there's military service mm mm mm mm yeah. it's going to be um been to his grandmother's flat near your place hmm hm near the other side of the motorway. what is it called? westland? hmm mm. which side is it? is it the one where they have those terrible blocks? i almost think so. i think it's in a block. yes um. hmm hmm. may be i'm wrong but i think it's in a block. and his mother lived there and she can't live on her own any more. could he moved south. where where would she have lived? no in a home with a nursing home? no any where else? hmm hmm she wants to take over hmm hmm floor you know you had a middle floor. move in there but let her stand probably has because of the staircases for old people yeah they can't manage the staircase i don't know how she could manage the stairs yes there are two flights of stairs aren't there? hmm. well if she has a hip replacement operation she'll be all right. mm surprising how many of these yeah? yeah. hip replacement operations yeah? rheumatism, arthritis, those are their great worries hmm hmm and deafness hmm yeah it's awful if you can't hear yeah you know what cathy speak at the radio saying that you now ahm replace the bones of crippled fingers really? yeah oh i don't think i shall go in for that. well yes i know really? did you know that? yes i never had a replacement replacement with what? elbow no knees i suppose elbows as well hmm knees and fingers. yes. yes. but you're never and some kind of if you're very twisted and nerves too when you have a finger whose paralysed and couldn't remove it and put in a nerve and then they could work again. you can remove ? i don't know do they to be transplanted you walk on crutches for the rest of your life. it's when you need yes it won't work it will work how do you know hips don't work properly hmm some do no not really no. they're all there but their their umbrellas and their walking sticks yes you don't think they work properly? yes of course they do work properly. what do you of course? you know a new elbow, a new knee and you think it's going to the like your own elbow? yes no it's not a piece of metal or plastic? hmm hmm no of course not it helps yes but heavens you know you'll never climb with that and you'll never climb the stairs no? of course not dear me! some coffee? yes i do very much some coffee hmm yes good why don't we share it? come on no thanks come on stephan its no thanks one should finish it come on no thank you if patrick doesn't want i can't eat it i don't think so he had a big lunch oh not much to finish oh! all my ah we have to still tell patrick about haven't we? about? yes because he really wants to know. what? are they to leave? yes yes have you vegetables no no no no really really? sure well you know i don't mind one bit no? no okay. patrick you know where i would like to go and look at this thing we have to whose that? hmm? we have to give an answer. what's that? about this holiday you know this arrangement which arrangement? well the the hotel we are going to stay oh! yes well yes? i would like to i would rather stay here. hmm? i'd rather stay here you would? i really would no i'd rather a fortnight in bromley would do me splendidly hmm? i would rather buying and they finished off you can buy them one day and bring them back the next i really would if i had a choice i would stay here well you haven't got the choice that wasn't heavy was it? not too many pro not too much protein yeah. no it was fine it was very good. i think i'm going to have i will have gained weight when you think so? hmm. when did you eat when did you eat your chips? about seven yes not here? when did you have your practice about a week ago no oh when? at six. yes?supper? no but you don't put on weight so there. well i don't know. no. i've never seen you fat hmm i have hmm? really? when i wasn't excited really? yes who cooked there? i think. it was that's when i just came back from switzerland i think. not very much but she wasn't with you? yes ah yes i thought yes ould rather stay here no patrick where would you would you mind to go to ? oh i don't want to go to what else then? well i mean just look at the map you're you're going to and then you're going to . well i don't mind. oh certainly not i'm staying at or the i am not traipsing across france. no? oh! i don't want to spend a fortnight on the road. well i do. waht do you want to go to for? but i it's miles it's miles away it doesn't matter no no let's go to mont dor nice or lyon, somewhere on the road somewhere on the route i'm not going to spend a week on the route it's a very nice route yes? lyon? lyon lyon lyon i know so well in lyon. well you eat well yes well i don't want to eat well and i want to eat well and i want to be comfortable and i want to stay in good hotel well the one in st maxim's doesn't do bad which is closer but wouldn't there be a people there? no still in early september? when it's sort of at at lyon will be alright then the might be all right but right over on the italian branch it might be all right mmm yes yes i am not going up to never i am no. who wants to go there? it will rain no it won't. who said . i like it there is september i like well you have been camping there once and that's enough hmm it isn't of course i think it is. we have seen brittany. no it's really lovely hmm. oh i don't think i don't think i want to go. ah who wants to go to montu you know the peoples ah you know if i'm going to the south of france i want to stay there for awhile ah no! yes i don't want to france is enormous country. i know i don't want to spend my time travelling don't you remember the last time it was so beautiful going across across at home. it was really beautiful i shall go alone this coffee kathy? no i'm afraid not. i'd like to coffee sit and eat that's what he wants. i just don't want that. i think we should have different holidays. you know he's entitled to his holidays but i don't want to sit and read newspapers no thank you. oh! this is in your travelling around yes well he does don't you he did but not that much no he doesn't he rushes to borg to where? to la borg. i'm not rushing to la borg anymore. yes well you see? he rushes to la borg and that's also in italy yes well they think cannot be as far enough hmm hmm overlap eating eating all day long overlap from place to the from another to the and backwards again it's very nice walks through through the merryland really? to ah to . we're going for a walk to . it's just the first visit we went to floyds i think we went floods yes. that's a sweet little village yes yes you have to careful with er that a holiday doesn't just doesn't become an expensive way of being uncomfortable you know but it isn't oh! oh yes it is. to me it's an expensive way of being uncomfortable. well to me no. so i'm more comfortable here than i am on holiday. i sleep better hmm i do. no. gives you these hotels aren't comfortable, beds, noisy neighbours unusual food dear me! what next? obliged to make polite conversation all the time oh! with who? i don't know behind your newspaper? come on don't invent you know? ah! it was so beautiful you know where? going through france ah the severn and then all these towns. it was fabulous. mmm really? really really yes provided yes but i would rather stay in one place we should stop at any one place going to see to see ghosts no what rubbish lyon is a very nice town i don't want to lyon it's very nice yes i'd like to see it for a day or two but not for a fortnight but lyon is a very big town. it's the bigger it is but i'm not going on holiday in a town oh! why not? no. well you can spend some days on the cote d'azure i don't mind for about two three days go well yes why not? no no very nice very sure strong hmm? but the coffee did you buy it in bromley? yes. i just want it no no i'd like that small one. may be i will eat only half of it. i'm not eating whole of it. so no it's too much. so it looks awfully fresh the wretches made me almost squashed it. they're nice when they're fresh. yeah isobel likes scones. is there someone who likes them without currants? hmm. you're not supposed to say but not too bad mmm i have very little though. i am also being careful. no i think i have half. you don't have to to watch out scones. where is scones? no not too many miles hmm don't think we've ever been in large belt large belt of the community in easterly hmm it's beautiful and the team is a frontier town no, it's not oh no no no no no it's before monaco. manto is before monaco. manto is very close to a very nice place called but isn't manto near the italian border? well it's closer to the italian border than nice is hmm but it's still it's in between nice and monaco. hmm. what is the frontier town ? france benzaminia is the frontier town it's in okay yes it's quite nice we have a very nice little villages on -you have , el yeah quite nice on on above in the mountains? i know alec has been there el is beautiful is it? well i like . yes but we're not going to brittany we are. it's off our route you like all your but think what you missed i'd like to sign it now mmm bromley the best french cider i have drunk is a french cider sold by by sainsburys. quite what? the best french cider is cider sold by sainsburys one that i've drunk. well, i'm not a cider expert. i like and the others. i really liked it. i loved to go back well you can go back you'll have share that if you're going in er if you're going in that direction hmm? no no no no no i i could but i have to be very careful i'm going to blow really? oh you had better stop can't just give me a week to have in here. you don't have a coffee to be going on? hmm? with the soda they're terrible tense no just vaison doesn't like sultana. do you know that? what does he..? he picks all out oh! isobel wants he doesn't like cinnamin goping either isobel wants to go to brazil yes but well i mean it's rather stupid for how long? three weeks. oh! but can vaison take the three weeks holiday? that's six i don't know. we're very reluctant to have to take three weeks holiday. will you? overlap very i mean overlap we've got five weeks discouraged from taking more than a fortnight at a time. hmm hmm. in belgium many people do take three weeks at a time really? hmm. sometimes here in london. really? yes. you do come back with somebody sitting they live for like one holiday which is the summer holiday to stay away you know? i just come back perhaps when they come back they've got six months you know they've got a month's work on their hands. i know. some else's sitting at their desk? well not you know cleaning so i don't know what kind of work they do. oh well if you're here that's all right door you know yes did you tell patrick? you don't want to tell? oh yes. tell then. come on you tell i'm too bored. this afternoon someone called yes assume you know offer his services for bowater you know bowater? bowater. yeah. bowater paper yes bowater i understood bowater fenny. bowater fenny. so and they made erm windows. hmm p v c windows and doors ah yes hmm and i thought i didn't know you. who are you? and they said bowater and i said well i have never heard of you and then they said have you heard of the paper? and i said yes but not as er as a window. then they said well and then i realised that it was fennite and i'd heard of that who? they bought out fennite. yes you know one of those oh hmm yes yes . anyway you go on i'm bored no no you tell it no i don't know what you told him well we had no work for them did we? hmm? well they said but she thought of the back the garden door anybody they are in the area you know as they always say and ah sorry we need a back door so they say they offer one per door one hmm hmm and then they say when can we come? and it was an old gentleman. such nice somebody and then i thought of ah i thought of that door yes all right let's which door? the back door here you know we had to replace it really. really? never yes so i thought let them come and they wanted you to be there and then i couldn't rid of i just couldn't get them to change their minds you know they just wanted you there and i said when do they want me there? well when they come ah when when they come on saturdays, sundays evenings anytime and i said no come you know when i am alone. well we usually like to be there well i'm afraid or that i'm going to say no we're not paying well they really don't want to come huh? they don't want to do the job and then a lady called back five minutes later just explain the man a man this an elderly man said oh well so i said all right you leave it my husband has no time either you come i shall be alone hmm hmm very well i said well yes my husband is there or not be there. yes i mean all right and i just ticked him off. why should i lie? so i said no no er he won't be there and he said okay. you can always leave it if you think it's not worth your while don't don't come. hmm so are they so he said all right all right are they replacing the door? i believe there's not wasted. and then i believe takes someone else supervisor hmm and er then she said if she you know i have them and i said no i told her all right we'll be seeing you and your husband and i said no exactly well i i i'm tell them to get on with it. yes i know but they don't they won't have it they didn't want to understand that just er just a woman yes but if you change your mind you see there's but so would you why can't you change your mind? well it's the two out three men dislike it. well i said listen if you don't want to come please don't so i'm not sure whether they do she said yes yes we'll come nothing er erm what did they say nothing comes in between so never did yes i don't care. so who is that?war and want. what? there's this woman there and then they say up yes i tell you what i know which one? hmm? well it's nigel hawthorne,miss saigon one of those. what are the others? i'd like to know. mercedes raw lost in yonkers miss saigon wins yes and the other man there. your cafe's in the south ah maybe yes he may be the you know that's it. i think that's him. he was he was the best did you see miss saigon? yes. did you see? no but don't go on and think it's amusing you know he's not really. no. after all it's not a it's rather sad. huh? no very sad. second er it's like an opera yes? sort of musical no not a musical but what should i say? a pop opera? yeah yeah and if you go in and think it's like all the other museums you have charts you have figures statistics along with you you know it's rather very sad but it's entertaining hmm but when you think which madam butterfly's scene you know yeah marrying inside vietnam going to shine up for his . i'd love to touch it. oh i'd love to go back to for a chat there are many in england there are quite a few you know no i know in camden town there are some very nice yeah erm it's it's a very well known supplier mm any it appears that it a way a way to get in. i think to get a good place hmm you have to give the doorman a ten pound note or something to get a nice place you know hmm hmm so you have to know that they have a rally in brussels starting last week really? but not this weekend but weekend before or is it june twenty five i don't remember did you go? no i wasn't there i was in switzerland but it was quite nice because they had carte blanche they have some preview of it you know you had like a band playing yes uh huh? giving out some leaflets and they play incredibly well. it's very nice on the grand place? on the grand place but they play all over brussels and so you can take the bus for free never! and you go all over. they've done this for that three years now and they they do something they manage with such one night one even where they going? yes i think it that's in august yeah and you roam again yes it's on second and the fourth of july is it ohh! are you still ? you are? as what? the grey wig. black hood hmm hmm always the same? really? always the same? it was always the same? and who was she married to? and she was married to she wasn't married to charles the fifth was she? no no no no she wasn't. she was his sister wasn't, no? yes she was his sister. hmm hmm charles the fifth's sister? yes and and your brothers participate too? no well doesn't this year and michelle probably he doesn't either because he's on holiday at but he has? but yes they and these roles are are occupied by the same people every year ? yes every year not now, not always no but most of the time yes really? until someone drops dead? yes it will be a long way to wait to have your place. so, do you is it fun? it's fun yes is it? it's quite well it's fun because i you know the people and you see them once or twice a year and it's it's nice to see them back and talk yes but the procession for us is like the most boring thing because we we just walk on the grand place for about five minutes you don't go round and then we sit hmm hmm no no? no we only start from the grand place and then we sit on the there's a big escarpment on the and then we sit there hmm hmm so and it's and most every every single year there's something different but very little. i see. and so ah huh we know colour goes out of your wig or something? something like that or one they put in that wasn't there or some uh huh . i've never seen it. something like that or yes oh yes and people walking on stilts do they do that? really? fighting and that. no? really? yes they have batons. and then you have a banquet afterwards? yeah a reception. a reception. where? in the more coffee? no i'm fine thank you. ah huh. a reception? yeah with erm what is near funny it's on the tip of my tongue yes i know which one you mean there on the corner ah i don't really yeah oop! it's a nicer in here than the hall it is very warm you know this is very much against this is something typical of the seventies this kind of thing seventies? hmm hmm like no it's not seventies stuff you know that is made now hmm hmm i know because it's back in fashion but this was built initially this was something that you could find very much in thirties right. it was fashion you and you would have bracelets with them you'd never seen and big rings like planets. this is this plastic or is this or is it perhaps you know resin? i think it's plastic. you think it's plastic? yes i think it is. yes. yeah you know you know they feel different you know. erm erm they feel different you know i have some? this is this is yes i sometimes one may be i'm completely wrong i never thought of it was plastic yeah there might be some very you know i don't know i don't know but then frankly thinking but then i got them in the end you know i just didn't sell them because nobody paid that much and then ah in the outset and i paid quite a big price for for two for patrick and me and then when they were they they dropped the price and then i got some more. ah huh you know what i mean? hmm hmm when they were very expensive i just bought two for us to change a bit and then i thought right now they dropped half and then i bought some more hmm hmm but er not before. funny thing! when i had them first i thought i'm never going to use them you know they're so clumsy and they're so big and now i rather enjoy them. they grow on you they grow on you. funny! well anyway with me they're nice. they're very nice you don't have to be polite. no i really like them. i'd look round the kitchen this one i like you like that one? yeah. that one you're lucky. i've got another funny one this one. yes. does match in two colours i don't really match but this but i like this i like that one really? hmm. oh! you like that then? yeah. i think there are just these three colours. hmm hmm. kitchen again. oh dear me! do you want me to no it doesn't matter. what is it? why are you sighing? tired? why don't you go to bed? not yet. in about half an hour or an hour. really not yet? oh! you seem very happy. very. it's a wonderful day. is it? huh. do you remember when we arrived? yes. jeez! i almost flee from the table what you feel so? no mm? you given place in switzerland they think it's quite you're old fashioned? yeah ah yes but this is not meant to be old fashioned. this one? no it's lower than the one there. no? yes but what's it like at home? it's lower. ah you see? nobody has page like that. you feel on the table you look no. you're just about the same height you can just roll over. yes. yes you are a are they comfortable? yes. very. you think so? mattress is very comfortable not bad huh? no very nice. very good. you find it more comfortable than the other? hmm hmm yes. you do? can you remember? yes. what? i should come out. not really no. no. the other one was lower the mattress was lower yes rather good. it looks like tribal watch. well, it's a bit refined it doesn't like not to me but, except maybe this this thing but not so material. oh look at him is that a bat? mm mm oo that sounds the devils oh no no no this is diable po yeah it is i can see. yeah a that's his full name. is it? that's his no no that's his real name. the way he was like his artist's name. hmm. that seems like a christies' mansion isn't it that? yes yes british no where is the british here? here this is the one. this is no you ruin it. it's international it's in north america with those.. ah yes. in england and all these places . what is the . what is the . there's a lot of is it . short hair or long hair or just a man? just a . ah i see. so they can't value it. yes ireland. yorkshire. we had one in granny's home. in cheshire. fellow of the royal what's that like insurance. i don't know. it looks a royal institute of chartered surveyors. that's it. why? that means er r r royal institute of chartered surveyors. appointed i don't know. he's not the same. that's it no no oh well yeah tired, i shall sleep i think that better go in the kitchen do you want me to help you. no. that's were you in time? yes hmm? yes? yes i was very . i was there about five after nine. you still looked nine thirty and then could you make even or did you have to wait around? i had to wait for about ten minutes. did you? socks you are tired. why don't you lie down a bit? well i'm doing much better now. are you? yeah but just soft strokes. did you did you sleep well? yup. you did? hmm hmm. yeah. with you round. you know he did you know what really put everything in the jacket. nearly put so i wasn't nervous. did he come at once? no. you know sometimes yeah but i you know no it comes it comes by bits and bits with me. yeah all the time it's always like that and i hate that because i'm that's why i'm so slow too. you know you have people who write it once you know once through. i can't do that. yeah. yeah. impossible. i've never been able to do that. yeah. so i write like ten lines or something yeah then poof. i have to wait and see how i'm going to to do further. what you know. yeah. because i have to structure while i'm writing i you know so i'm structuring while and i can't write as well. you only structure? i think that's a good idea er to structure before you plan make a plan before you start. yeah but i somehow i don't do it and i know i'm sure it is yeah it is better. no i well i planned a little bit but even if i plan i still can't write it. yeah yeah yeah and you know what until i get started takes long for me and then i usually can get going you know but until i keep going or sometimes somebody and i say that's it! and then after one page or half. my god! i don't know anything anymore yes that's it you know what i mean? that's it. and then i have to start something else. yeah does that happen to you? yeah. my third question today yes? i was i didn't know which question to take yes that's it yes one or the other, hmm hmm which one should i take? so i decided at least i stood there for ten minutes which one should i take? wondering which you know? which is the most stupid thing. well no. it's just and then i started one and i said no no no i won't be able to do this. and i started another one and i said no i won't be able to this and got back to the other one and did the other one.. and i remember once we had that was we had accountancy and we have a year to pick that one. we had to have solved so much problems and i just this way and i just wouldn't have it you know it's just impossible it's impossible and i hummed and hawed which way and hummed and hawed which way. in the end it must have been the right one because i was the best of all and i you know until five minutes before everything finished i just couldn't make up my mind hmm hmm so er i was just lucky yeah to to have taken the right decision for once. uh huh but as it is as you say you know it took five minutes before it all happened in i find this very don't you? or you know you know how to continue? . tomorrow it's easier isn't it? didn't you say so? yes much? hmm. not much those two here now this week other house. but next week this you've well i have much it was much easier for me to study the once. yes. i have next week ah huh. yes. just two next week. also i've asked you i'm sure many times but also the one next also wednesday and thursday? yeah. yeah. so that's that will come easier to you really? yeah. this one was hard because this one to me i think was the hardest because it was was theoretical yeah yeah and we had to have theory that much you know yes yes and tomorrow it's hard because it's an economics one and i have never had economics before so but it's the second part in zurich because it's flying economics telecommunications and political television ah huh that's all practical? much more practical so that's all right yes and then next week it's it's easier easier subjects. ah huh. so well it's a good thing there're only four aren't there? mmm mm. there are. well afterwards is your thesis going to be difficult? no. not really. you know it's the thing you wanted. you choose and so you like to yeah. okay. you know the reason to choose? yes i have interviews and then just need to start well i need some moral interviews and then start. structuring yes finding more readings yes you know and then writing. and you having to do a talk yeah should i drink the pot do you want some more tea? i'll get some do you want some more? do you want some more? don't you? yeah but all right. come on come on don't worry you stay just make a tiny bit of er sugar. yeah and why don't you take your cup as well? no no take you first. stefan you're exactly isobel's age, are you? yes. but ahm two months older. really? three months older. same year? yes because my friend's daughter whom i met er she is one year and a few days older than you two huh? well isobel. she is born in first mm mm first week in august a year later. thirty not sixty four. so sixty four eh? yes. so she is a year older and her son is a year younger. sixty six? no two years younger. sixty seven. yes yes. twenty four yes . i think they are in australia. they're in perth. they're indians and er now he worked here. he did his masters here in i think he did his first degrees got that in india hmm hmm and then er he took his master's degree here in london and er two two degrees in india when he he is you know he is erm orthopaedic surgeon. so he does mostly hip replacements hmm he's a surgeon he is your age. oops a daisy! when i hobbled along with my knee he said oh you should come to knee replacements how did you take your how did you have to come? first and then couldn't take a return one then. that's a wrong no i took two two tickets? yes that's how you had to do it? well no i could take a return if i wanted to. i took one to which is two ninety too nice you see you usually can go on return. a travel card is three thirty but i mean yes i know but then . yes. so er then i wonder how much a weekly one was but it's twenty one sixty a week really? so it's i i counted it up for the time i'm staying. it's not quite worthwhile it's not worth it. hmm. and can you take er weekly from monday to monday or? no it's from monday to sunday or for any you can't just take it from any time? yes only yes you took it i can take it from tomorrow for a week for a week ah huh yes. twenty two pounds? twenty one sixty. twenty one and to come back how much did that cost? again two ninety again two ninety? yeah yeah it's awfully expensive it's incredibly yes six pounds just to imagine yeah it's incredible it's it's six pounds yes it's what i paid to go to minorca three hundred and sixty three hundred and sixty, no no i paid more. wait a minute yes it's three hundred and sixty three hundred and fifty sixty isn't it? i paid sixty for a pound. yeah it's a lot three hundred and sixty. that's one way to minorca yes one way to very odd. yes that's the that's just . can you imagine you paid six hundred francs to go back and forth to trip. quite expensive. well it is. what is it? that costs about six hundred to dijon. yes, but still i mean it is much longer than this journey. it is very expensive and dreadful trains aren't they? dirty and uncomfortable. well i think we are next in line to get some new ones. this morning i was on a new one. really? well i never start on new line on on new trains was it new? train in this line no no no there are some nice ones whether it looked new outside hmm hmm but inside it was i was staring at a woman i thought of you. there was an old woman on sitting opposite me on the way home and she had two big i was looking and looking these are not real. but not bad ones and these should last a little while because they are crunched up they are powdery hmm hmm they take sea shells or pearls not pearls and they powder a bit and then put several layers on it so they are not yeah they should last very they should last two years very but they are not very she had . what did we see? we saw things like they had yesterday for about four pounds. they are they were not likes. and i paid after all forty six. yeah but so there must be a bit of and of course. the real things the real is a real pleasure . when are you going to christies? tomorrow afternoon i think tomorrow? hmm hmm. tomorrow we're going for lunch yes? to celebrate our first three do you? where are you going? i don't know yet you don't know yet. and then i your your colleagues from yes and then then i will go to er to christies christies in the afternoon ah huh and probably maybe have a drink with some friends yes yes before going to the concert ah huh and then ah huh. do you know your way about? yes it's in the well do you know that you have i know the way you know the way yeah? i have already been to the bank. by underground when you came here? yeah yeah ah no from here no you have to change something i know i have to change but i'll find it don't worry. yeah. don't worry. you have to walk a bit. it's not nice do you like the barbican? yes. well yes. do you know i think the acoustic is very bad in there. yeah. but somewhere else i was it was much worse. but the one the acoustic is wonderful in the festival hall. yes. it's most wonderful thing. but so i sat in the barbican up up at the around at the same level as the royal festival. yes yes. i couldn't hear anything at all and yet it's all wood isn't it? in that great hall? it's written yes well supposedly there there have been many criticisms about it i know i've heard it. but er did you actually i didn't hear i mean i could hear. it was ah no i mean it was you know it's not that it was do you mind if i watch the news at six? yes. but it you'll have to watch it again with patrick. i don't well i i i will probably study at nine. that's why i watch it. because he won't give up his news. so er er what was i saying? no there was a kinda of a veil that kept the voices coming up. really? how far up? i was totally up all the way up. and it was bad? and it was well i i felt i need i'll see tomorrow but hmm hmm but that's what i it was the night of symphony yes the night er er symphony of beethoven. yes but you can't have not have heard it? well not as much as i'm used to. no? you know in er i think we have to turn off i think. well she's on the second balcony under in the centre under the top you know where the she's said it's great in the back there. she says it's a great difference in the movie. did you know that? yes she'd like to change with a girl. cos we may not be able to afford those upper you know they are very expensive. poor old ralph has to pay those. rather that he stayed more expensive. are you can you sort of can you? yes very much. i can do . very much so. i can tell you, well not always but sometimes people from first sight i can tell. well, you're sort of offering in broad lines ha? sorry? in broad lines. yes in broad lines. somehow i sort of mentioned do you know what i mean? yeah. nothing to do with intentions has more to do with sort of intuition. yeah. i can, and i can feel immediately if it will click with someone or not, you know if, if i'd like someone or not. but it clicks with you? yes. or, when the, no, when i see, i meet someone for the first time. other people click? first time i can sort of guess i classify meeting people. yeah it's a bad thing to do. why? because you don't, sometimes you can have a very wrong opinion of someone. have you had wrong opinions? yes i think, well mm you see, you just think it's or have you experienced that you were, first you had a bad or a good impression and then you had to change which i used to do very often. i i had always too good an impression of everybody. and then i had to come back. in you know? no, not you give everybody a chance. no, i sometimes even now i classify people at first and sometimes come back to my decision yes i do. you do? yes i do. are you so personal ? i am i don't mind in america. then you and you're expelled. naughty girl, always makes fun she was absolutely a very intelligent woman but she spoke soft and slowly so everybody just sort of, who knew her superficially, she was not a very intelligent woman, she really was i can assure you. she's all black now all along, so she can be awful really sarcastic she would she would she would mimic her ah so. that was very naughty. anyway i made completely the wrong decision with her with her the first time. yeah. it was because she spoke so slowly afterwards i didn't even realize it. she writed me. erm she was in india and i wanted to go and she said a hindi course at a t r in zurich. aha. and she says come on, my, you girl i tell you this and that. let's meet and er i'll give you hints for . and i thought, oh not her, you know, she won't, what she tells me won't be interesting. i know. and yet, it just clicked after a while that she is, yes i don't know, we became the best of friends. and i went to that meeting thinking i know it will just be . that happened to you? yeah. we could . she's no right to tell you about things it just was that. afterwards,you know the you go up, you have yeah. a t e, a t r at the university and just, the block, the side of the university, she had her apartment for a little time. and every saturday for a whole year she run a japanese consulate. mhm. and, every saturday she would cook for me, usually curry, something and a good bottle of wine. and sunday she would come to me and i'd cook for her. fine. right. when i used to turn down the corner of the strasse i heard her music. she used to right up and,i can remember the sort of hot days, you know yeah. and the water music which she had about you know for months and months she would have the water music on and you used to hear it in the . so funny . they're very nice apartments there, the . are they? ah yeah. well it's not, er, it's just the side street, just just the side street. yes. but just, almost, you know, near the strasse and , i can't remember the name. just about mhm aha. just one block away from it. yeah. so they're nice on strasse. where? quite nice. well where's that?? yeah. ah yes. by the, by the , up there? yes. that's with the at the corner. that's nice too. all rich ones, good apartments i am thinking and the ones closer erm down inbet when, from the and you go up you go up in between the and er and er yes. there. yes. there are some wonderful on which side? on well you go up on the left side. yes. but they're not new. no. they're old they are. i have never been but on top there's some top penthouses. yeah, er, i suppose so, yeah ooh they're wonderful. but they are not new they are classical blocks aren't they? yes they're classical. have you been in them? no, no. but they're nice? very nice. and then, er, i think, er, a beautiful conception they just finish this, they made a new train station, did you know the ? ah the yes. isn't it wonderful? yes. and also, one thing you have to see, come on, i'll show that next. it is the most incredible it is, isn't it?enjoy being in an american i absolutely love it. incredible. yes it is. i mean he kept, i mean he didn't do anything to the city you can't even see it from the old one's still standing and it's in the wrong it's so nice. the other one is mmm and also the shops i mean when you compare it to the new one in the which is awful. ah. is it? so how can they do, and it took about ten years to build this ten, yes? they, they, they tore it all down which was the most wonderful thing. to pieces. aha. and they put the most ugly thing. ugh yes. is really terrible even the shops i know. you know they are not pleasant to shop in are they? no. you rush out usually yes. and you know because it is a huge thing isn't it? all outside, gutted inside and already the, the shops and the restaurants outside are . yeah. right. . and you know what? i used to see the the before it was sort of dirty and you just wouldn't go would you? and you wouldn't see it, it was hidden or something that side of the station, you just wouldn't go. i know. and now it's all opened up. yeah. it's quite nice. it will be lovely. it's not finished yet is it? no it isn't. well it's, it's when will it i don't know how long it will take not, not, the er, er, the next already there is one restaurant already opened which is quite nice. there are, yes, yes. several even. and has, i almost, i came out of the station from from i almost spent all my money in my handbag in that place, already, you know? i just couldn't resist oh there is some very nice stores. yes. and i even, you know, got stopped in the station itself before i started. ah i enjoy music. if it's nicely done then i, i think it's going to be well done. but why is so badly done? er, i don't know what that is, it's wasn't he up for, mm, mm, you know, for competition? was he just a local figure or, or local architect, or mm? i don't know mm i don't know. it's quite , quite he had it was an american who won the competition erm and really everybody is thrilled with it. wonderful. incredible. yes. you use it sometimes? or you don't? i just went to see it no, no never. oh yes, yes . she could go on to the other station but she says i enjoy being in so much i use it. that's my first station i came to zurich. st st aha, yeah. and, er,that was the first station, i came alone. and it was late. it was lovely. and is also nice, it's an old one. ya, well, mm, it's not too bad. it's nothing extraordinary, but, er, it's alright. no, it's alright. but strasse i find is warmer, erm, well i suppose it has oh yeah,yeah, yeah have you been in the restaurant? no. no? no. i don't know what it's about. could it be for you? could it be? i don't think so. no. yeah, yeah, i'm awfully sorry . so at least they let me know which is fair enough, ha? all the others i mean, all try but then this is alright. none so, the vice president or someone, so in other words says, i'm, i'm sorry we can't, it would, would have been tomorrow morning. sorry i can only be done , i said, mm, would i understand, and i said yes. well that's er they should be sorry because, you know, i could just as well yeah strange. let me see i can't read it. it says you know where that comes from? you know where it comes from?on the way back, we, we stopped somewhere in, in a sort of a farm or something aha. they said, you know, there was a, erm, a saying there was meat, and we bought meat, it must be there. and it was it must be that. so it's a year old, no more than a year old. i know we bought some meat in, you know,thank you, it's very light i put it in this way. on what number is it, do you know? oh. four. oh. tiny bit more, no you can leave it on four. and, yes, i just wait a second, what about you, you don't put any more in? i'm fine. no? yeah is that alright? yeah. i don't really like, yes, thank you. i don't too much like warm toast, i have to wait a little bit. so isobel has her interview today as well? i wonder whether, you know, she can't really write articles in english. she has to make big reports you know. i think she, i mean, it's something she'll get used to even she whenever did she do it? she never learned it really. no. well no, where, never did in an english speaking school. you know? but then she, then she had to write english before yeah, but you know, as a, as a foreigner, didn't she? mhm. she only had a few, few lessons lychee, what else? mmm erm? she'll find it difficult. if that's what she has to do. you have in english schools? two. well, two different ones in america. ah yes, three, no, more than that, four. really? well, high school yes. and then college, the first year, that's two schools, and then another school call that , as, as one. and then you that's one, and then three, three. yeah, yeah. you see now, that makes a difference. you speak much better. mm? she never really had to do something in english, did she? never, except,no no. a few, few . language was alright like that, but mm what's the kettle for? erm i'm not, well i was boiling it for this what? thing, did you want it? no, no no, i'm just, i'm just using it i'll knock it off now you wanting to vacuum that for me oh shush up paul come on paul get a move on i'm a zombie pardon? i'm a zombie oh come on stop this stop it what's the matter? that's a good way of breaking your neck that er stop it, just get up, turn round, turn round whoever put this plant on the stairs yeah, whoever put this plant on the stairs didn't realize that we've got silly people like you in the house but it, it keeps on falling over whoever's put that plant on the stairs doesn't realize we've got silly people like you in the house, just have a look oh you silly no just look i can see what he's doing he's being a zombie, so he's coming downstairs with two sleeping bags over the top of his head and knocking everything over, just look at it well he can vacuum up again he can do the lot and he can grow up as well, fifteen and he's be playing at being zombies get that from up here now do you want me to clean out the chicken? i said do you want me to do the chicken? yeah, alright then er i'll do it er that's not got any giblets in do you want, do you want have you got an onion for it? in here here there you are poppet. oh yes please i are you going to the hospital this morning? no well if you do it'll give us a chance to find out whether he's coming home today or tomorrow, and it'll give your mum a chance to get back to southwold isn't it likely that he is coming back? pardon? is, isn't it likely he'll well, we don't know till we're told do we? i think you could find that out over the phone i don't think so for any news i don't think so pardon? do they always smell those things? did he think so last night? no no it's not that, what i'm thinking is, if he's coming out tomorrow and he's got to you'll need to get back to the bungalow i will to sort things out won't you? i will, keep him so the more time you've got to do that, the easier it'll be for you won't it? oh yes how many sugars do you have in coffee is it one? do you have one sugar in coffee? i'll just ring up and, and see the only trouble is arthur the trouble is, there you get more is, how do we get philip back? oh no, well i can walk get him back and can he drive your car on your insurance? yeah your insurance me? no, well i can, but it's only third party fire and theft then, just hope the fully comp goes, can you get some milk please? i think it's different milk it's not is it? you know where the other one is, it's still at the front door so what do you suggest arthur? well, the sooner we know what's going to happen if he's going to come out, they'll be coming out, well it's thursday today, yeah, so be coming out friday, yeah? yeah did, did they won't send him out saturday or sunday they did they sent people out saturday and sunday oh they sent people out saturday and sunday did they? they did arthur oh yeah i thought they kept them in over no they sent them out saturday, sunday the only thing is arthur that the, it's philip, can you grab his car? or not well i'll check on my insurance if you can drive his car over i get it, it's no problem, it seems we might all be talking above ourselves yeah, as soon as we know something we can start making decisions can't we? otherwise we're, we're in no man's land was he saying mr in there mr round this morning yeah oh well they, they, give them time, it won't be till yeah he won't of been round it's half past ten he won't of been round yet how d'ya mean, nine o'clock, hour and a half yeah i suppose mm paul yeah that plant, those stairs hello er how's mr ? get out of there and get it done has he had the results of his second biopsy through? he still hasn't had it through, cos we were yes, yes, big improvement, it was just that we were arranging visiting and things like that and er whether there's any need to do certain things, so er, but he's still on a, he's come off all his painkillers his morphine's out completely, that's fantastic isn't it? yeah and he's, but it is quite difficult to kind of withdraw isn't it oh not know, oh that's super, well oh i thought it was quite difficult to withdraw from no never used it to kick, lord no yes that's lovely, now we can organise our day, right, thank you very much indeed, right thanks a lot, bye, bye . good news he's off his painkillers he's off his morphine completely good how about that? how about that? beautiful well that's good because it means that beautiful whatever it was, isn't hurting him any more true so so it's a step in the right light it's, i think it's another step, i think that's a, an enormous stride oh, i it look like it's all clear then doesn't it? i mean ah, well the painkillers, you, they'd have to i think it would be, it'll come as it comes a hell of a shock now i think it was put that champagne in that fridge i don't know oh honestly yeah, put it in the fridge paula all this anxiety all these painkillers all this drainage going to the toilet as well normally yesterday he said really? yeah oh isn't it wonderful brilliant, don't drop it it is, it is a miracle that i'll just brush the dust off yeah we've had a, we've had a plant over, we don't want the champagne over oh i don't want to be silly it's just a miracle oh god, it's normally thirty seconds that's enough are you putting er pieces of bacon on? not at the beginning oh you don't put it until the end? no because it goes, it goes too hard i put that onion there i've got it in you've got it in, have you got your i can smell something oh thank god off his painkillers, my god here don't forget these what you doing? i take that off yeah, but that belongs to chicken shape together oh you keep yours, yours on ah, you sure the giblets out it mother look on the packaging it says without giblets i always check it she always cooks it in the plastic bag though no i, what i do is i test it, i clean it out even though they've done it it's been washed out because they leave bits in the haven't you watched her doing it ah? this morning, have you seen paula doing it this morning? she's been cleaning it out i've seen it's alright, she won't let you catch anything no but i say, but surely sometimes they, they have left them behind you know oh are we using these love? yes if you put the yeah put the peelings in the cupboard and then for the guinea pigs let's go and see how paul's doing. oh is that it it's brilliant news i think he's gonna be home very, very soon now yeah i'll get a very soon if a, if he, if it was the was a possibility once this biopsy's cleared, he's off his painkillers, they, they were his big drugs weren't they? yes they've got, they've got his bowels going he might be home the weekend well i think it's possible he might be home tomorrow you know no, i think they'll have to get well that's today, once, once they've cleared that yeah, well is there any need then to keep him in? oh no oh no oh no they'll decide i mean mr will know, they'll know what they're doing, i mean they know what they're doing, i don't know what they're doing, i'm not a doctor, i'm not god, nothing yeah how many times has he, has he done this to us now? over the years don't tell me arthur i go through all these panic stations and and life's one big trauma with him keeps you on his toes that was the week when peter came that day when they had that very, very ill no you, i don't use a pan you use a and peter came in the morning, i never thought anything i'd been listening to the radio, i heard there was a big accident on the road, a car accident mm. on the road it'll just go in there peter came in and it, nothing sunk, er, nothing sunk, i'm doing these well i'll give you a hand, give you a hand er nothing sunk that there was something the matter yeah and peter walks in and andrew said to him do you want a coffee peter? he said yes mrs well then he followed me in the kitchen, stood behind me and i thought what the hell's he hanging about for, i'm gonna take it to him and the, his son- in-law was there yeah and he stood in the kitchen but he said nothing his son was there you said his son was with him cos they, i mean who is peter? one of the fellows that used to do contract work mm and it's, john what happen was he finished, i'll have a bowl this side, a pile this side where they're i can do, i can cope with that, you're alright, here he stood there, no i don't mean that, i mean me rubbish, oh dear, and he said erm er, sorry, he started sipping his coffee, he never said anything and then he says i've got some bad news for you and i said oh my god no, car accident, i just heard it on the radio he said no, then he told me, oh god i nearly what, what, what was that one then? that was when he was buried in that lime at oh in the in the how many men were buried in that with him though? they still haven't got their compensation, the fellows that were really injured, the chap that lost his eyes, was lost his what? his, his eyes? his eyesight, a young fellow they still haven't how young was he? well, well, he, he, with a young family, wasn't he in his thirties? no, a bit older forties yeah, he's got yeah a young family like yours yeah and er how, low long ago is it then, the, the accident? it's nearly three years, but you see three years oh it's been more it's more than three years it's more you've been down here two haven't you? yeah so more than that i bet it's, no, i bet it's more than that and er and they haven't had the compensation yet? no none of them? no did father get any compensation? oh he didn't apply, he never, must admit nothing wrong with me not much i'm alright not much i'm alright i'm alright that's what i said to him you silly bugger you should of applied, even if you didn't oh no, no, if he's fit, you shouldn't of well then no, come on how do you know that this isn't the result of concrete in his phlegm and lung no it was lime not concrete oh whatever it was, anyway nothing matter with him yeah so yeah anyway, it, it, what happened was that, you see the irish it was a funny set-up because the irish people were responsible for the erection of the, and the supply of everything, well they've gone out of irish? the the irish which irish , is that a company or something? they were called yeah yeah oh and ha, they were the ones that did the design and everything you see yeah and then they computer people, and it, both the firms have gone bust, and each one was suing from the other for, er, insurance oh yes, yeah and the insurance won't pay, won't pay out the claim typical, yeah until took more responsibility because it was outside contractors you see yeah you understand but it was a take on site then or was it, what was it? the site belonged to, er, was it, it was the was it? yeah yeah redesigned with computerized site yeah so therefore the irish people designed it and the irish people gone bust and out of business yeah, yeah the the chap at the at the computer place died oh my god, hmm his partner they were, they, his firm was folded up because, yeah it was a sudden death, he was only in his forties oh my god and er, er that was a shock you see, because he, his partner then lent mm went into liquidation, well whatever they do, i don't know oh they went bust or something and they, cos his, and his wife was a partner, the chap's wife was one of the, one of the directors or partners mm how they do it, you know, for er, for income tax and what have you, and of course one, one blamed the other yeah and of course the insurance people would not pay out on either, wiped their hands of it because they reckoned it was nothing so did the pontius pilate bit yeah so consequently they're still fighting and the chap still hasn't got a penny and he's got no sight at all yes or his he's got partial sight in one eye, have kept him on that's good of them brilliant int it? yeah of course he can't do the job that he was doing and he'd got potential of the future with, you understand what i mean? his promotion yeah, well yeah, i mean his yeah his, he can't drive, he can't yes, got his potential working potential when did your dad have that accident paula at er, you know with the lime? i don't know about four years ago well, your, your mum's been down here two years hasn't she? it must be four, but you see daddy went to the i'll ask father oh don't mention it he just er i don't know why it was way back that's, that's one of the nightmares one of, they haven't paid any compensation out that's one of the nightmares he gets you know still? oh yeah what being buried? when he came home buried him alive oh you don't know what he was like when he was home, he was, i mean i've never seen daddy er sort of, occasionally cry and shaking what cover himself up? oh yeah what when he was asleep or when he was no, during the day during the day? don't ever tell him, my god oh my god, i didn't realize that he'd just sit in the chair, oh yeah, he used to sit and why don't er what cowing? you know he, he was, if he, that's, that's possibly one of the nightmare he's having that he doesn't that's possibly what? one of the nightmares he's having what when he's on the drugs, some of these painkillers? oh yeah he's get he's reliving this he's, he's you see, he this burying alive and he, of course that's what he does, you see him do it, oh yeah when daddy's not, it's it all comes back oh i, i mean, he sit inside, normally he'd have the present, he chucked his glasses off, he stuffed all his hankies, he had about ten hankies in his pocket yeah he filled all down his mouth and he stuffed them all down his mouth and his nose, all his hankies? oh yeah to stop to stop the lime, the dust getting in, yeah that's why he got away without too much damage ah cos you see and the others didn't? no, because he had the present, how quick thinking you could of copied that his quick thinking mm so immediately he knew if that comes i choke, if that comes i'm blind but he did more than choke if he, if he inhaled erm, lime oh yeah it burns your lungs doesn't it? well you see one of the l one of lads, naughty, he had to finish, but then he had a bad chest before ha and that finished him off completely won't it? he panicked and they had a hell of a time with him because he panicked in there, in the hospital and there was a, going berserk and that but you see daddy didn't, oh there's nothing in there, and he in the hospital? yeah yeah but when he came home then he the shock he was able to the shock hit him he was able to let it go but you know, when you said there's been no damage to him then, physical damage there hasn't has there? but psychological damage oh yeah i didn't, i didn't realize he was oh yeah he came home and he cowed oh yeah, i mean i had a horrible time with him for some time and it just, just how long's that? a cou couple of weeks? a couple of weeks yeah and then he used to cry and he was like that and then he got it out of his system didn't he? god, i didn't realize this paula what? your mum's telling oh don't ever tell him what? no, no, about your dad when he came home don't don't ever tell him you know from dad's, when the lime went yeah be sitting in the chair wide awake and suddenly cowed and cover himself up that's suppose i think he's wide awake for no reason, crying for weeks afterwards oh i think, well he would do why? it's like it's shock did you, did you know it though? no, but it would be shock it would be shock if you'd been buried alive you think if you were buried alive, i mean, uncle nat when he used, when he was in, in uncle nat when he was out in the war, he used to come back home and he'd only to hear a siren and he'd throw himself on the floor oh yes, yes covered himself and, and fluff out, he was psychologically the war mm, mm and he, i mean er, he could, he would never showed nowt, because he was at, he had men in, he was in charge of men, like father, would never show it to them in hospital mm but the minute he can come home and relax and release himself relax and release himself but, for some time he, and it, it just used to let him get it out of his system my god and say something i didn't know that i think when he was so near to death i thought bloody hell i bet it's that nightmare but i've not mentioned, don't mention it he keeps saying it's the same one don't mention it no i won't do cos it'll, it'll come out, he'll say to me sunday when were at home mm he'll say, you know that nightmare i keep having, it was that one, he will he'll say, and i'll say to him well same one, same one coming back if, because, he saw what was going on, in a split second he saw what was happening, i mean it was, it was when we found his glasses and that and things they were all buried and, and peter said to me i've got this of john's, i brought jonathan's, i couldn't care less as long as i've got john you know yeah and er yeah he said, well, i know he's on about his glasses again ain't he? mm but i think possibly as philip said his drugs are affecting his eyesight, but then they'll need, he'll have to have them tested and, and then, because he was on yesterday about them again yeah, but your eyes are changing all the time, so you, you should go back and have them tested regularly shouldn't you? oh yes, now, i get even get the woman to come up and does he have to pay for it now? oh yeah really? yeah mm you see the trouble is philip does, because he just you don't tell me, unless you tell lies you think if you tell lies then you can get it free you can get it free, but you don't you shouldn't have to pay anyway should you? but anyway basic thing like your sight that doesn't mat listen yeah, but, but as far as i'm concerned arthur, john's more important to me than a bloody pair of glasses oh yeah, yeah i mean, and it's the same with that business no, but it's he'll most probably come out with it when he gets come out quietly, yeah oh yeah he never says anything at all, till this happening and he'll say, he'll say, you know about the nightmare i had it was that one, oh i know i mean, but it, it was so i mean you, you have it, you be in a situation like that oh yeah, i, but i didn't realize you know with him the old man, the toughy, yeah yeah but if you, if you no but he, he does put out oh yes he does out that air doesn't he, that sort of yeah, but you don't sort of you don't let on nothing gets to me you don't let on, you don't, you just don't but he does do that doesn't he? he does say in everything oh yeah, i mean that's it, he does, he just doesn't say i mean he, he just keeps it to himself yeah and then he, you see he's got, at home he's got, he can release things cos there's nobody else around mm, yeah you know, but that was a nightmare really, well i didn't, i won't be surprised if that isn't the one he's having oh god, see what paul's doing, if he's up i'm looking where's paul? upstairs, still in the bath doing what? ringing that order through paula do you want anything else done love? no that's it is that f is that our lunch, dinner? what, is that for tonight or are we having it tonight? will we be having this? we'll have it for dinner we're having it hot for dinner? for dinner right so if we get down to the hospital this afternoon well mr would of seen him this morning yes so we'll get down this afternoon then, alright, fair enough at least we know what we're doing now your bedroom's a tip. yeah i know, i'm working oh god what you doing? maths maths, it looks like english yeah, it's really notice you can change it, cos what it does is it, oh hell you can edit the colours of everything so if, if you can't understand, cos sometimes it goes over itself, like grey means normal writing, yellow means bold and underlined and pink that's about your name at the top erm pur erm blue that yeah means italic italic, purple erm upper case upper case twelfth subscript why doesn't it just, put it in upper case then? you can but it's, oops, you can, but oh that's how it looks that's how it'll be that's more difficult to read then isn't it? yeah mind you, you've got all your enters in there haven't you? yeah, er you can turn them off yeah and you've got all these what, what are those ts at the side? that means you've got on the screen a tab stop you got what? a tab stop a tab stop, what does that do? in the, if i go down to what does it do a tab stop? you see, you see that there ener yeah, energy yeah the big space after energy right, yes it, it gets everything in line, see how they're all in line? yeah just hit that there and put a couple of spaces ad that's what the tab stop does? yeah see them all the tab regardless of the, the length, like the one after iron will be a long one mm, mm and after calcium will be a short what about vitamin c? there isn't one there isn't one, i'll just put a space in and the one after fat, yes, yeah that's a long one yeah and it indicates you put one in cos sometimes it's confusing if you've put in a tab and you don't know what's what happens if you want to edit it and you've got tabs in, does it make it more difficult? does it throw, throw things out of line? yeah, yeah it can do if you forget, so it's handy if you have a t besides it's handy that just to remember, remind you? ah does it print it? no, all these characters are not printed so can, can i think sorry can you have your tab stops on? you know like you can have your enters in yeah but not showing your tabs, not showing those ts, but there, can you put them on and off? on the screen er, yeah, how'd you do it? can't remember, erm that it? that's it, it's gone, yeah. has it moved everything in? it looks different oh press them again, put them in oh i thought i had oh i, what have you done? there what have i done? i don't know it looks different doesn't it? i think i copied from the old lot of have you? no no, it just look different when you took them off yeah it, it's er alt, turns them on and off, yes it did, it does it then what turns them on and off? alt f four alt f four, yeah what's happened to it i don't know tony they've disappeared yeah control f seven control f seven load quick er well you've saved it haven't you? oh shit, i've just lost the doc what you lost? impossible what have you lost ton? oh god, control f seven, transfer load set take your time, take your time, don't panic i've just lo you haven't lost it yes i have what have you lost? i don't understand that alt f four meant to change, it's not meant to do that to it you've lost your headings, or the, or the work itself? no, i've lost the, the whole work itself how? had you saved it? yeah and it's lost it again for me, oh shit well it can't of yes it can, it's gone, loads of work, ah shit, well how can it lose it, if it's saved it? get out of it quick, erm, quit can't you get it back? i'll try take your time, take your time, don't get annoyed with it it does do backups it, it's done a backup, yeah? erm, yeah well don't lose this then oh the document, the document's longer with the two, let's try it. try it and see what happens there we are, well done control go is it there? no, i know i'll get it back it's not there? i'll get it back, wait, erm how do transfer, merge what about your options no? erm that, transfer, merge erm, maths is it there? no it's got no other then what? arthur calm down arthur if you've saved it ton it's got, it's got to be in there hasn't it? no it isn't just a minute i'm just ringing mr up mr who's he? shall i erm oh yes, well he said he'd phone us paula i know but he, we've got it here early march and we said that we'd do his paperwork for the the afternoon have you got it back? it was there all the time paperwork for the what's it called? it was there all the time? yeah you poor thing gets rid of what's it got rid of? erm see you panicked then didn't you, ah? that's stupid, yes yeah but you panicked didn't you? you know how it gets rid of the ts, it gets rid of everything it's showing there oh it's a bit daft what down, all down that side? yeah so if you put the ts back, if you put the tab sign back on it brings all those vitamin cs, fibres and fats up as well yeah, yeah really? yeah, no, no, i just pressed the wrong button that's a weakness that isn't it? i thought it was that's good, i like that to get that back, that's outlining, you know i merged something on the end that i don't want to, it's deleting not bad and you can insert it again subconsciously been misspelt go back to that, you're showing what? some cracking spellings in here that's, that's fall back again where's, where's that subconsciously? there oh i'm gonna get to do it right that's subconsciously tony wait, wait a sec go home page up do you want me to go through this for spellings? balanced god lad no, cos i'm not really balanced, there look relief of does this have a spell check on it? add to god, there's some great spellings in here pardon? is wrong shh have you picked up that plant? yes yes i have actually you wanna grow up a bit you know, how old are you? er, that and well what was? zombies zombies it's gary how do you spell conscious? conscious? c o n c i o u s try it is that right up on the screen there, conscious? no ah conscious that's what you've just spelt c o n c i o u s yeah, can't find it, it won't be found either tony con that's right, the c o n part's right, conscious objector i don't know that's right, you're closer conscious er science conscious, okay go on then wait take that out go on, try it, try it see what happens mm, i'm gonna look at that and see what it gives me that's conscience yeah, but where's conscious? conscious see the first what, two,fi first five letters what? of conscience, you want conscious, well you can go up to the i and then it's conscious, you've got conscience, conscious oh damn mr t manager, what's the name of your company? freebie, another freebie no, i've just rung up viking to get some box sealing tape and, and this here, he, he said is your name t manager, what is the name of your business? what is the name of it's t that's what douglas said was that it's t so what's the name of the business? t i said it isn't, no it's t t trading t trading and what is the nature of your, i said we're a charity, how many people are involved? how many paid? oh oh it's gone into that computer now yeah the thing is it's, it's, it was, i got the stuff, paid for it by access it'll be with you tomorrow, i got a free you're wheezing again messiah i got a free, a free one and i bought an extra one necessary you wanna see the spellings in here, you want to leave them in ton oh ton it'll give somebody a good laugh i thought this was n e s s necessary, necessary n e s s like knife, yeah and scissors i'm not surprised nec nec necessary's not found, is that your spell check? necessary, necessary necessary, oh n e c it's not double c it's not double, your mother's worse than you neces no tony e s necessary, aha you, it's coming now, isn't it? s yes no that's alright, it'll find that it'll find that it's close, there you are knackers oh god have you seen it, you, you want to see balance as well essential go on then, spell balance oh it's at tony's fibre fibre is repeated roughage, oh god what's that? roughage no no leave him, leave him, leave him oh damn i've got easier you've got a letter too many there, can you see it? yeah balance, what, the e's wrong in the middle what's that? break time break time, that's okay, break time erm add document should add it to dictionary questionnaires, there you are, you've got it there possibilities, that's okay no it's not, that is it is consuming consuming, what have you got in there? double m? yeah else, else's random god ain't that clever? randomly, it's not clever at all yes it is it's like that yes, it's just looking for certain letter groups and yeah it's quicker and if you start with three or four letters in paul just hang those up in his wardrobe please, hang them up i've ironed them have you got balance now? healthy sensible eating has reached, has reached finic have you read through it? no you should read through it every so often yes spell check i will do in this,as more and more people become concerned with their health and the effect of what they eat has on it i'd think about your english in that and how you put it together, that there sentence yeah, i know, i've got, i've got to read through all this and that's your introduction the first sentence that somebody's going to read, yeah? i know, i've got to, i've got to read through all of this okay, health conscience, not, it isn't health conscience people, it's health conscious people yeah i know you're conscious of your health not conscience of your health health conscious where? fourth line down, first word oh yes that's it, try do it, blow your nose rather than sniffle please,balanced diet in order to provide their bodies with enough. but not too much ingredients, essential for some of the most necessary substances for a healthy life include have you got whisky in here as well? right that's about it, save that healthy substances for a healthy life, you're very good on the, is it, is it the protein he's good on? vitamin c got too much vitamin c too much vitamin c i don't know where it comes from i wonder if it makes your brain go doolally though no, it means you're clever supposed to innit, yeah, they did a study on that didn't they? they fed these children with these tablets that would make them go and the parents were rushing out and buying tablets to make the children intel the children intelligent. just imagine that for, taking half a dozen before you going into mr 's geography lesson. i'm going to read through this properly i'm glad you are out loud, i'll write it first and then i'll check it not with an audience right, go on what it can't do erm, can't check up grammar mistakes true a machine to get that does that, is a good program as it is, it's three hundred quid normally but it's a copy dudley gave it to me watch your toes it's pirated it's pirated is it, oh god well he, are you gonna fork out three hundred quid? paul you gonna shock me? what's that? he started his homework you see yeah i have yeah, tomorrow tomorrow's too late no it's manana tomorrow never comes those curtains in there paula the side, you know that track i repaired the other night drop again it's gonna come down again, the we cos you're stacking stuff against it i've just moved it all away but did you notice? yeah it is, what it's done it's fallen against it, it's gonna rip it down again push the bed, the bed had been pushed up and the stuff had tumbled and i just moved it all away yeah, draw the curtains back a window could be opened in there er paula it's like an oven in there i see this piece in the, about southwold beach huts what about them? well you know the council, waveney council yeah you see they want people not to se not to sell them privately why not? because they say, they've got a waiting list on er on the council yeah and they've got to sell them on the waiting list really? and southwold are up in arms with it who's beach huts are they? the people whose they are? the people or do they rent them off the council or what? no what happens is you buy the beach hut but you rent them on, you rent the plot so the council are saying although it's yours, the hut's yours, the land is ours the land is ours we want a say in whoever has these have these beach huts not, not the price that they go at and you can't sell the hut, no and you can't sell them privately, anybody you want to so who's handling the sale then the council or est cos i've seen these things the council in estate agents yeah have you? yeah, but you see they sell them privately to, erm they'll, like you'd sell your house yeah privately yes the council wants to make out that you've got to let them have the first option of buying it from you of buying it from you and then they sell it on? yeah, they've got to wait they've got to make some money out of that haven't they? otherwise it's costing you lot over at southwold a lot of money and people in southwold are objecting because they say i don't blame them i don't blame them, that it is right that people should, should have the right to buy from the council, but i don't think you should yeah there's that side to it i mean it's you see some of them only live in a small cottage with no garden and that's an extension to their home, you can go down there with the children yeah. and enjoy they've bought the hut to enjoy mm. the privilege of, of them like you would have a shed in your garden yeah a shed, a except in your own garden yes it's your property, it's your land it's that's correct whereas down at the erm the land belongs to the down at the erm seaside it belongs to the council it belongs to the council yeah, what a pity yeah what's it saying in the paper then about it? has, it just a report or is it a comment? oh they've had a meeting you see because people in southwold have checked yeah. you see, the fact they say they should be allowed to sell yeah. and to who they want to if they want to i thought, i though southwold council was a conservative council no we belong to waveney that's ah is it waveney council that's decided it? it's waveney you see we belong to waveney district district ha, yet the southwold parish council, i've seen it in there, er there's been a some vandalism on the golf course, you know on the common and er i didn't know about that yeah it's in there somewhere, and they're complaining, you know the people who play golf, the golf club are complaining, and the, the council are saying it's the southwold council, so maybe it's the parish council, they're saying that er yes it's our responsibility this club and we must look after it and we must find the culprits and so on, it's in there somewhere cos i read it this morning yeah i thought i cos it happened over the weekend digging up holes in the erm in the golf course. what this last weekend? yes it's er, i'm sure it's in there somewhere yeah i wonder what will happen then with the beach huts it could be it could be that you've got to get the, you can still sell them private but, and the council will, will just say yes or no no, it just said them you will offer it to them, no you've to offer it to them first because they've got a waiting list of people wanting right to buy, to be, it's, you see it's the or something you see, with all their beach huts all the way along the coast, is that, or is it southwold that they're doing it with? no, they must own southwold, kessingland, pakefield and straight into lowestoft, all that that strip yeah they own the fo what they call the but why, you see er the end of southwold when east bramont went into the sea you know yes when the cliffs, when the cliffs collapsed, yeah they wouldn't shore that up because there are only about eight houses up there, so it doesn't pay them to although they own that bit al although they own that bit or are responsible for it or are responsible yeah but there again i don't know how much of the er, whose fault that was, whether they should of done, i mean it's, it's the same as oldbury and dunwich isn't it, how that just went into the sea, they let it happen mm. they won't, they won't,th they don't intend to let it happen at all there mm i knew some but there's, there's a yeah a village isn't there really, a small town a village you see and now at the harbour they've done that harbour mouth so that walberswick will not be affected mm, mm oh well then yeah, but again there is, there are more houses at walberswick than there were at east bra is it bravance or badance? oh yes, east bramont. eastern bramont yeah well the reason they wouldn't do it there, the cost is so great in comparison with the number of houses mm, yeah, yeah they're on about erm, below erm, not thorpeness, where's the one with the, orford isn't it, orford castle oh yes there's the farmland below the castle you know going towards erm felixstowe that way, they say the land down there, the farm, that low-lying farmland is very susceptible to flooding and the coast is being eroded that's correct oh they are, is it our poll tax? yes what have you got? go on then oh you're not too bad what've you got? yeah erm, get meant, get the right one ain't it? er two four seven forty three two hundred and forty seven a head? no, two four seven forty three, yes per head, yeah that's not bad that's cheaper than our rates they're cheaper than the rates, yes. i feel sorry for these old folk who are over here though, on the other side of the road, two forty seven for them well that's what that's what's wrong with it though, isn't it? that's what we mind you there again it's cheaper than it should be because we're paying it on vat, you know, it, er, they must think we're fools two four seven forty seven, you're quite low actually because some well there's a general election coming up, it's a tory council, they're not gonna raise it as, as high as they possibly can are they? i think that fee is excellent, if they'd of kept it at that, i think most people could afford it. but you're paying for it in your tax,you you'd paid a whopping subsidy on it, it's a big con. yeah but the first year was, was an awful amount really well that was, well it should've gone up from that, what did they do with the vat stuck two and a half percent on it and said there you are we're gonna hold the poll tax down, how? by making you pay more on your vat, so we can knock the poll tax bills down, you're still paying for the damn stuff, ah, ha what's happened to your paper why don't this country wake up? about er i don't know what's happened today i think it's, they've run out of they've run out of ink or something out of ink, yeah ron has sent us a copy then yeah it must of been a few they'd got through mm it's the biggest con that poll tax thing go er the amount going down that this lot have pulled on us and everybody's fell for it hook, line and sinker ha the first year was horrible but last year was look, if, if somebody charges you three hundred pound, and you say that's too much and you complain and they knock it down to two fifty, but they say but we want you to pay fifty pounds on something else, extra, do you think the two fifty's fair, eh? not really, but no, well that's all they've done all this paper is there's about six erm, six sheets in it ain't there? there er, more like ghost printing ha, that's funny, bad news for people paying fifty pound per week rent, you could buy your own home for forty nine pounds per week sounds like marks and spencers there forty nine pounds, ninety nine woolworths nineteen and eleven yeah, we won't charge you a pound for this we'll charge you nineteen and eleven oh do it's under ten pound, yeah nine pounds ninety nine the funniest, the funniest thing about that was, a friend of ours he always remembered when woolworths opened in oldham yeah and they had a, er, for the opening news you see everything in woolworths was sold for sixpence but was it woolworths or marks who had that little slogan, was it, nothing, not a was it not a penny, nothing more than a penny or not a thruppence anyway, they, they put on their window er yeah go on for er opening day everything's a sixpence and a, they have this great big display of buckets in one of the windows, sixpence sixpence a bucket there was a little hardware shop just round the corner mm and his were fivepence ha'penny and there was this long queue outside woolworths for sixpence woolworths to buy buckets for sixpence and could've gone round the corner for bought them for fivepence ha'penny see there's, there's the con again you see, it's the same thing, you can convince people they're do they're doing brilliantly and charge them more but we said we, we couldn't give over laughing about that and they thought it was hilarious because it, it's like c & a's they used to always say, nineteen and eleven or nine and eleven or, it was always the well marks and spencers look at yeah do you ever see a price in marks and spencers that doesn't have ninety nine p on the end of it? yeah that's right it must cost them more in time in getting that penny out you know one penny out of the till till yeah, crazy, well look at the erm, the price of sugar the other day you were talking about that, what was it, fifty odd p? fifty nine p and in the supermarket it's what about? erm sixty eight sixty eight, yeah, and that's a corner shop that's a corner shop you go to the big supermarkets yes and you think it's gonna be cheaper, it's gotta be cheaper because it's wherever there's a reason the little corner shops do that you see, that corner shop especially he always has a blackboard outside yeah and it, it, it's always erm some offer off like cauliflowers yeah and in the summer when they were thirty nine p it's to get people to go in the shop really well the supermarkets do the same thing don't they? oh yeah loss, loss leaders or if they're not loss leaders they're very low aren't they? but when you think if you go to your corner shop and you, you don't want a lot it's cheaper to go there than to get in a car oh yes i'd rather go to the corner shop spend your money on petrol, pollute the place well when, that's what i said to, er paula people should always go to that village shop because in the long run i know it might cost you more, but the hassle and everything, the only thing is they haven't got the variety that's the, that's their weakness isn't it? yeah, mm but that's their weakness because they can't take, they can't take the stock yeah but surely when that corner shop closes the elderly people round here would be in a state they've got the erm, that mobile shop that comes round here oh have they? i didn't know about that haven't you seen it? the blue one, from debenham, and you can phone your order through on er get ready boxed up for you oh that's good so you can do that with him, so if you're not too well you know like yeah say if it was yourself and father who both weren't well, he would, if you just pick up the phone and say, i'm running short can i have a b b and he, he brings it round, like you know,j j same with i can remember my mum when, when i was little, she used to have a book, a shopping book and she used to write in it what she wanted from the shops, it was like erm a thick notebook did you yeah ever have anything? did, is that right? and prices at the side and er it and she knew it was all printed tea, coffee, cocoa oh no she wouldn't of, no didn't have that, no they had tea, coffee, you know the essentials yeah so that, i mean a person that was a little bit muddled always remembered aye. but you see people with shopping lists so the she used to hand it in at the counter, this yeah book, she wrote a list out what she wanted, she used to hand it, i remember, i'd forgotten all about this, let's just say we were at the co-op, she'd hand it in at the counter so the, the groceries counter all, and she'd written it all out, and when it came back it was, was five minutes, it was all together for you, there it was, it was built up on the counter, and each time the amount was written at the side so yes that sort of predates this er till slip, this till roll you get yeah, but don't it? but she, she knew in normal what she was getting at, she knew exactly what she was shopping for, she went into that shop, there was the list, it was handed in, i bet it took her less time to shop then, than it did later when she went shopping with a vague idea well i mustn't forget this, i mustn't forget that, but then the wandering around sort of oh that looks nice and i fancy that yeah but in, in your mother's days mine my day as well yeah when you went shopping you could shop everywhere and a quarter of tea it was that price every shop, there was no competitiveness about it mm a pound of butter was that mm, mm two pounds of sugar were that everywhere but people still shopped at different shops? yes, you did, you, you mainly, i mean in the, in the well, well why, well why would you choose well because to shop at that particular shop rather than because that one? the co-op used to give the dividend but not everybody shopped at the co-op did they? most people, there was quite a lot of people did yeah most people did, yeah, but not everybody i mean i did, it was, it was great at my mum used to say such thing as like you know bacon's better from from from such a place rather than such a place well you so it was, she knew you know you always went to a proper butcher then, you didn't go to the supermarket because you had a good butcher that you used to go to you knew him and he knew you and you knew what he, and he would sell you what he, there was no cons, no trying to pretend that this was best, and this was mm, yeah so therefore a butcher was a butcher he was a tradesman in his own right but he was also a family butcher and he served the family didn't he? yeah yeah, er we used to go to certain ones that's right yeah, and another thing is i it's amazing how much you forget isn't it this, the supermarkets know, you just go, you pick it up, you stick it in your trolley and move on you pick it up, you stick it but you don't there's, there's no se there's no erm there's no service there's no service is there? none at all i mean what used to make me, what made me laugh too, is the same with linens and things mm go in the shop and the girls do not know the stock yeah yesterday when i went in the shop, we get underwear and things like that mm the girl on that department had gone for her lunch mm now the girl that was left for er, a, an hour mm admitted that she didn't know and it's about that department what's what shop was that? that was debenhams debenhams, well you see, are they really trained for, for those so therefore little departments within the store those people or just put on no, no but you might go in at that time wanting help yeah and there's nobody there that can give that's right help but that's not just because somebody was away for their dinner, it's, if that person was back from their dinner yeah they most likely wouldn't be able to give you the help as well, they're just placed on i can always remember years ago going into, going these particular department little sh into lewis's in manchester yeah which was one of the good stores and i wanted a bolster case mm and there was a girl on and she said what is a bolster case and when i tried to explain to her she looked at me as if i lived in the ark and that was going back twenty years ago. mm you don't but do you ever see bolsters sold now? possibly not, but they still, in the stall market peo they can, you can still buy bolster cases where at? that shop, i don't know what the name of that shop is, but i've seen them in the window lately its possible, yeah yeah so if they're still selling bolster cases i wonder if they're still selling bolsters somewhere? well they most probably do, yeah, we only sell, sell these, stupid pillows like this, curved pillow cases for these mm somebody must do them yeah, true, true, true you don't, you don't get a service from the shop now no you, you, you just, it's make your mind up, your own mind and you're left to your own devices. when i was er, you know this saturday morning work and weekend you know this weekend, but not saturday morning this weekend work and holiday work at a tailors in runcorn, the manager of that shop, gentleman's outfitters right, the manager of that shop, there's two other men worked in there full time and myself at holidays and weekends or if they were on holiday you'd have to work, you know, the erm to cover one of those and he, the manager was brought up, he's, brought up, his training was in liverpool, in tailors where they, a man would produce a suit for somebody yeah you know you'd produced the shirt but produce er, and there would be lots and lots and lots of these people, these very skilled men oh yeah men all working in their own little houses sort of they looked liked houses but in fact they were little workshops yeah a lot of the jewish folk i remember once, yeah it was like that, yeah that's right, not one, but a few times i used to get on the train from runcorn to liverpool, i had an address to go to in liverpool, rough directions how to get there, to pick up a suit or to pick up a fitting, you know you'd get the, the different oh yeah stages of fitting oh you do it's, it's the oh yeah, all that, you know all the and you had to keep going, striving on that's right, that's right yeah well the slight adjustment so to get it, get it right, that's what you're paid for and he's, that's where he was, that's where he was brought up in the trade, and he could take a piece of cloth in his hands, he had rolls of cloth, and he said that was made such a way, the quality of this cloth is because and that yeah socks the same exactly the same with socks, the blend of wool or nylon, er, just pure wool or nylon or whatever whether it's cotton in it, all these things type of shirts and that, the strengths of the cloths feeling it, telling you that'll wash well that'll last that'll last that is worth that money oh yeah and that's a bargain, and se you know these reps would come round selling this that and the other and if, you could only see samples after, wouldn't touch it with a barge pole like you know, yeah i'll have that, that's all but that's because he had a good grounding oh yeah now he passed that on, that had, sort of knowledge on through the people in the shop okay, if you, soon as that link gets broken and you go into a shop something like erm burtons okay, big retail shop like burtons, you go in there you'll have a manager in there and assistants and so on, but their background knowledge has nothing to do with tailoring, nothing at all aye, er, it is so you can go to them and ask them for advice and they can't give it, because there's not that link back to where you know not now there isn't yeah but, i, when i was in stockport i went to work at that tailor's shop yeah and, and oh yes, yeah, i remember that, yeah and i'd forgotten about that i mean, and i'd worked in one in oldham and the difference between the one that was a fifty shilling tailors in oldham and fifty shilling tailors fifty shillings and you could nothing more than fifty shillings twenty five shillings for er a cheaper suit yeah and fifty shillings for a good quality one good quality and it would be as well. and those suits were made to measure a week's wage and you had fittings yeah it's a week's wage now yeah right and you had and you had fittings mm and you had, and the man there looked at his stock and he wouldn't, he wouldn't sell you rub well they didn't get rubbish in, because but now you see you've got these big you but they're all these big retail shops off the peg now these, you know these national thing, all that they're interested in from that manager of that shop is how much did you sell that week oh yeah and just pure inset, and just headquarters, that's all they're interested in, not whether he knows his job or not, not whether he could give advice because he has no control over whatever comes into that shop, he doesn't decide we're not having these t-shirts in or, or we're not having these suits in because really they're a load of rubbish, headquarters decides it, all he does is put a nice little display out, usually, and it's shown how to do it by headquarters and so on, these people come round and show them what to do and so on , do all that, in fact he's as much expertise in there as i have or you have, anybody could literally with a bit of training in the company way of doing things mm take on that job, you don't have to be erm somebody who has knowledge about cloth, about way, the way things are made, the sewing, alright, how close it's sewn to the edge well there's very few people yeah, things like that that have a made to measure outfit, how often that people have oh i don't know it's all off the peg now not all, there's still a fair amount i don't think there is oh yeah i mean all still there, there isn't, there isn't as much as there used to be, but some are fair amount yeah, but all they were interested in that shop in was the commission they got that's it so they, i mean they flogged the cheaper lines and they could have through the door like it, it didn't matter did it? no no, that's what i'm saying and i mean they wanted the commission if you'd of gone to them for advice and say which is the better buy, which will was wash better and why, you know, i want i want oh yeah this particular thing, they'd be, they'd be flummoxed well they'd sell you the most expensive because they'd got the most commission yeah and convince you, if you pay more for it, it must be better, and it, that isn't always true either, usually is but not always what used to annoy me about that shop was that, that the fact that you know people used to buy the things on the never- never mm and er they used to come to me and say how much does this man owe now and if he'd been paying quite a bit next time he came in the shop they was all round him trying to persuade him to buy yeah a mac yeah trying to persuade him to buy so they were waiting cos look your account is getting low getting very low, you're a good payer and er i'm sure you need a pair of trousers you need this you need that yeah and some of them a bit it's all sales talk he walked out the door, he's forgotten yeah yeah all they wanted was to get their commission. yeah, do you think it still happens? oh yes it happened with us, when we borrowed money to pay for this car, finished it off now, the bank, oh the letters they send you, about three months before you're about to finish paying, i am an esteemed and valued customer you know and all that crap blah, blah, blah oh god did he i tell you what they don't esteem you, you're not valued i tell you what annoys me you're, you're just a number on a damn computer but they crack on yeah as if you were something, somebody very special and again it's a big con and it, they must think people fall for this that's why i think people got in debt because they'd been having things that they couldn't afford, i mean er, at one time you was never encouraged to ha er have things, now i mean the minute they see you're getting low on your, oh have something else, have something else yeah, yeah, yeah and then they forget they have to pay for it i give you a good example of that, erm, well not how easy it is, not on that, but how easy it is to get money without having the money, okay, tony wants that, the computer yeah and we wanted to get it through access, and the credit limit on access was what was it a thousand? something like that, trying to remember now what it was, sixteen hundred, sixteen hundred that was it and it says your credit limit is sixteen, sixteen, you could spend up to sixteen hundred pounds, whether you got it or not you can spend it, so we said if we're gonna get this computer because you get these air miles out of it, you know, every ten pounds you get an air mile, well if he's getting a computer over a thousand pounds you know with all the paraphernalia that goes with it, well that's a lot of air miles there, well we said we'll get it through access, but there isn't, our credit limit on access isn't enough to pay for the computer, sixteen hundred it's more than sixteen hundred, in, in the long, once he's got his printer and god knows what you know, so i phoned them up and he said erm is it possible to adjust the limit upwards? oh yes we said well what's the limit? well they said what do you want it to be oh god, i can't, there you are it's as, it's as easy as that, it's as easy as that and then they want you, i tell you what there's another thing on television that makes me really laugh is that advert about electricity and it says about electricity? electricity yes yeah and it's, keep your house warm and it's this, you know er she comes in, in the middle of the night, she gets up in the middle of the night and the house is lovely and warm, she gets up first thing in the morning and the house is lovely and warm yeah with erm storage heaters, yeah storage heaters, yeah, yeah right yeah she goes on about all this but they don't say how much it's gonna cost, never mind the storage heaters that's got nothing to do with it that's got nothing to do with it, but you can be lovely and warm and warm twenty four hours of the day, until you get your bill and then you're lovely and warm and warm where's that table dad? i don't know paul. you can burn it where's that table that tony had for his, that erm old camping table? i don't know paul, it's erm, ask tony he's the one who'd of put it away, have you asked him? no but really it's a waste of time you know close the door please when people are sitting there and thinking oh yes i'll have a storage heater, you keep lovely and warm you get your bill at the end, a few hundred pound er yeah oh it's, it's just all con isn't it? yeah they, they're telling you one part of the story oh and they forget to tell you that once upon a time doesn't always have a nice ending, yeah i think though er, they're encouraging people to be constantly in debt because there are some people, indeed a lot of these people have bought their home like mm maggie thatcher had told them to do, they haven't realized that owning your home like you know you buy it off the council or things like that, it ends there, they're forgetting the maintenance part of it you know yeah, but they're also forgetting as well it isn't just the maintenance that it's a long term commitment to paying yes back money but twenty, fifteen, whatever years, whatever years, and in that time you've got to be pretty sure that you can do that oh yeah that your job is secure, yeah that you well nobody's job is secure now nobody's job is secure, but some jobs are more secure, have always been more secure than others and if you've been, as some of them have been relying on overtime oh yes and the building societies and the second job this, will, oh the second job oh aye and the building societies and the building societies at one time would not take overtime into account, but in the eighties oh my god, you know, how much, oh have as much as you want yeah, that's right but they took all that, they took overtime into account, now as you can't guarantee overtime, you can't actually guarantee your basic wage oh no you can't but of the two you can't, you can't have a ba you can't have no basic wage and only overtime oh no yeah, one will always be there if you've got, if, if you've got a job, the other one is very iffy and yet they were lending money to people who right, right, rightly in their minds have, and as maggie t said oh yes go on, go, yeah, independence and all that, erm they were going out, never having done it before, no tradition in, in maybe in their family of doing it before, got this goal this sort of disney world ideal you know erm, sort of make believe world who are we gonna be and we're gonna be dreaming the dream, the dream like the electricity isn't it? yeah, like the electricity, but your chickens come home to roost when your overtime goes, when your job goes and you take on a commitment and they never, the last ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty five years and they've never ever, ever taken on a commitment like that before, when it's presented with just the roses around it, everything's sweetness and light and roses and the other side isn't really put, put to you, think of the worse scenario, you're out of a job, what can you do? can you keep it going? in that case could you keep it going for a while if you're out of a job? what limit of borrowing should you be borrowing to? i know accountants say borrow to your top limit because of tax purposes, but they're talking about people who've well people that have got it so much money you know, they've, they've got to erm that's right, yeah they've got to spend but i, i disagree with them lending money to the extent, the old way was better when it was two and a half times the salary, your salary do you know how much it was when we got our first house, just before we were married, it wasn't two and a half times your salary, it was one and a half times our salary yeah, but it was one salary and one salary and then people never got themselves into debt, it was only erm unless you were unemployed that was, that was the realism of life wasn't it? yeah, is was the ideal thing that your marriage, one your marriage could break up oh yes two, even though you're both working you can't guarantee that both will continue to work, it's taking it to a real, a realistic level but i mean i feel sorry for young mums now because there's no way if they take on these mortgages they can have a family right, yeah now that is wrong because nobody should be committed so much to the hilt that they can't have a family yeah and choose a life, it's all going in bricks and mortar and the not yeah the building societies but this is, this is the way of, values of of yes the place of the moment, at the moment isn't it? yes that bricks, mortar, tellies, carpets and god knows what that's it, more than, yes rat matter more than people yeah it seems to be but you see the, the sad thing of this is, if you've got a, a little family and then you can't, because the man has lost his job, you're turned out of your house even if you've paid five or six years on it mm and then they can turn round and offer you bed and breakfast mm at two hundred pounds a week mm now that is wrong, why they can't help that family to extend the mortgage until it would cost them less than two hundred pounds a week it would cost them less that's right this is the meanest of it and there's no oh yes this is the meanest, you get into the system of the, of the legality of it, the, the er,thes these people who lend money where we want our money back yes we want it there, we want this guarantee, it's, it's a bit s it's sort of well well you see it's a bit shylockish, we want our pound of flesh at the end of this day, now that, the fact that the cost of that pound of flesh will cost you more than this two hundred pound a week yeah cost you far more getting it like that than saying we'll support you exactly, but you see the point is this it's, it really is a bit shylockish i think it's wrong because they, they're putting these houses now on the market, the building societies mm and they're putting them into auction and the people that have got spare money mm, mm are snapping them up yeah and yet hold on, it's not people who've got spare money, it's people who who want to invest money who've got plenty of cash, always will have as well and this is, this is the unfortunate part, this, this is the sinister part of it really, because the people who've scratted around and have suffered yes borrowed up to the hilt, they, they, their er, i, what should i say, their erm unfortunate circumstances yeah are benefitting people who don't have to, never had to scrat around it's still wrong they actually they had, the poor if you look at it one way are subsidising the very rich oh yes the very, the ones who've got so much money they could and they're buying up things as a result of somebody's misery at a way lower price than it should be bought for oh i know it's horrible and they're doing it again and again and again, it suits them, it suits the ones that are really rich to have ordinary people struggling like that and it suits them not to have that two hundred pounds a week going in to help those people and they're the people who it suits who will decide whether that two hundred pounds a week goes to help on the mortgage or put them into what is it, a bed and, a bed and breakfast? mm, don't know what they call them so if it, if it look at it like that, these people are benefitting ho again and again, time and again and again out of some, out of somebody's yeah, but you see misfortune, and yet, and yet the cost of putting them into a bed and breakfast would stop those people's houses going on the market and it would stop those people who are benefitting from it, from benefitting from it yeah but you see, the, in this, in this they're parasites aren't they? in a vicious circle too it's working that the tax payers are having to subsidize bed and breakfast yeah so so the rest of us they, they might as well are subsidizing the rich to buy houses that are becoming cheaper onto the market in, yeah, in a vicious circle, yeah so we're all helping the rich to become richer yeah because these poor sods can't pay off the mortgage and er, er, er, and the poor are getting poorer and they will not let them get out of the poverty trap. it suits them yeah not to let them get out of the pov that's what i'm saying, it suits them because they can buy up property much cheaper than if that two hundred pounds a week that's being spent on bed and breakfast, that, they were spent on helping them with the problems as they are at the moment. yeah, they should, i mean it is a problem it's crazy, it's crazy, if only people again'd sit back and look at it and see exactly what's happening, rather than saying it serves them right, they shouldn't of done this, they shouldn't of got themselves into that position they're in that position they can't help it sometimes they're in that position, it's gonna cost us to get out, cost us to get them out of it and they can go out into a bed and breakfast or they can stay in the house they're better staying in the house aren't they? that's right you're better letting them but to start with they shouldn't of borrowed to the limit they were borrowing well there's the building societies fault that's building societies, yeah if they go, if they're wanting to let people have as much money mm and know full well that it's very difficult for them to pay mm they should of, go back to the old system that they took the man's wage in, only into consideration or, one of them, or one of them or one of them, well yes or one and a quarter or one and a half or whatever yes, it used to be two and a half times the wage and in the long run rather than mess about taking the house off them mm if they're only young extend the mortgage mm they'll still get their money in the end that's right and they'll get more money these people who are buying up houses now so cheaply from these, you know from these repossessions oh it's terrible they must rub their hands together you know when these booms are going, you know, oh as much money as you want because they must know what's gonna happen when they, you know, when the cows come home, they must know when the chickens come home to roost they must know what's gonna happen what they're going to that there are gonna be so many thousands of people in a right mess and they're well gonna pick up cheap pickings, they're gonna go round like the vultures, just taking it and taking it in one way they should do something about people having second homes and make it more, that they get more tax out of them or something right unless they're going to let, unless people are going to buy them and let them at a reasonable rent to people what's reasonable? ha yeah, but i mean reasonable to whom? in a few years this er, they're not building houses so these houses are gonna go, rocket again when the council houses were sold, a lot of money went into the, went into the council yeah yeah, well they're not allowed to spend it and they're not allowed to spend it, that's the craziest thing of all but housing associations can build houses, but councils can't yeah or they can but a tiny amount, it's this sort of dogma, this blind faith, has put commonsense right out of the window completely out the window i don't understand these it's how these housing associations though how they work? well no, how they can afford to let the houses when the council can't. well the government subsidizes them a lot for, for a start and it's, again it's the government, the philosophy of the gover of a government either subsidize something or it doesn't, doesn't it, and it subsidizes what it yeah wants to be a success, it did, it takes the subsidy away from something that it, either it is successful in itself and it no, no longer needs to be subsidized or something that they want to see go to the wall, if they want to see something going to the wall, it yeah, but it belongs to the association i don't know exactly the oh the ins and outs of them, but there's a lot of government input into it, there's a lot of government help in there, a lot oh and it's, it's the philosophy that people will stand on their own two feet and own but why and own their own houses you see which is a good philosophy in some ways to though, i mean i can understand i think people, some people arthur can you just turn the bacon on the chicken and the potatoes? alright, alright yeah, better see what's happening, anyway i've sat long enough yeah i'm as stiff as a board you're a fat board yeah we've put the world to rights oh it's not a case of putting the world to rights i'm looking for this bacon there it's in the fridge got it, got it the bacon's on the chicken it's only two pieces yeah that's all we want paula bacon paula yeah it's only two pieces of bacon the bacon's on the chicken it's on it, oh, thought you said put it on it oh god up, not on the pillows but actually sitting up as if he was bolt upright? bolt upright, yes, fast asleep and then he'd move his hands yeah erm, do you know like erm in meditation people, when they're meditating and their minds are away and, and the bodies are calm and relaxed, it was like that then, then he'd go back into his sleep yeah and then he woke up, his, his eyes opened from this, he was actually asleep and his, he woke up from it, not with a start, but the, it's, he woke up very quickly, instantly and he just started to do things. what do, what age do you think he is? oh well in his seventies, touching eighty do yo think so? i think so if not he's in his high fifties his high fifties and he's very old, young yeah what was paul like last night was his mother there? paul, erm he was his wife was there and his dad he went for a bath for a walk, a walk around you know his dad's a very calm person isn't he? yes, yeah he's very calm he's, erm did you say he was an, in tele was a telephone engineer? i think so, yes oh, he's a nice man, and he seems to be, i mean he seems to be in control of everything yeah it's erm i feel sorry for the mother though she seems quieter than colin doesn't she? well she's got something wrong with her legs hasn't she? she suffers a lot with her legs you know yeah she drags them along doesn't she? it's an awful strain though when you've got a young person like you know like paul, because i mean they have their future before them and but very sad really he erm that other boy seems to of gone out doesn't he, that was in the other day, that was walking around, he seemed to of had his treatment and gone. which was that one? there was another one like paul with er that had had chemotherapy oh yes at the end, yes, yes he seems to of gone want me to do your hair or anything mother? no er i thought i'll leave it till tomorrow and then well, well if i'm going to be going home, leave it, cos if i'm going to go home it's pointless change it or anything, we haven't had any visitors mm, i mean we might today i'll do my hair tomorrow just in case i was going anything else need going on? how far are the potatoes and the about half an hour off the potatoes, you don't want the sprouts on just yet, do you? no what er are we doing those in the microwave? yeah and the frozen peas as well please what time did you put the chicken on? i'll get those out . what time did the chicken go on paula? i can't remember it's ten past now, ten past twelve i can't remember i said i wish you'd of timed it of it on top about ten o'clock, half ten no it was turned that, about half eleven it was eleven, about half ten, it's been in an hour and a half oh is that enough? no, i'll just go to the freezer you've got to be careful with chicken that's what i said what are what's that? they're the tops of paint pots, you put the oh you put the plastic pot on the bottom, that on the top and so long they look rather nice, they look ha, they're dirty they, they look expensive don't they? they're dirty, and so long as you erm fill your paint pots up so the water in the pot is below, below that, if you tip it over it doesn't spill oh very good that that's the theory that's the theory the practice is a bit different how long do the sprouts take in the microwave paula? pardon? how long do the sprouts take in the microwave? twelve twelve minutes? yeah that's too much, yeah spilling the peas all over the place here what a beautiful day a good drying day isn't it? gorgeous yeah i tell you what i'm going to do what's that? i want to can i iron in here? is there any possibility of ironing in here? nah i think paula might hit the roof if you start ironing i only want to do daddy's pyjamas for the hospital well he doesn't need them today he does, he hasn't got any with him no pyjamas? no, he'll be going berserk because he has, he has three pairs of how many pairs of pyjamas has he got? he's got three pair paula, paula says hundreds dirty, only bottoms, paula he hasn't any jackets well, do them then if you don't mind do what you want to do i want to, where can i plug in out here? in the socket in the wall you can plug in no i mean, it seems pointless carrying it through mind yourself that's well do it, see the light there, the that thing oh yes i can use this i'll, i'll put it up for you pull it which way do you want it? i'm only doing his top don't pull it out like that, pull it straight out, don't wiggle it wiggle what? you watch she's a wiggly wobbly one watch, oh missus i'm no missus just pull it straight out, if you do that to it you'll wreck it, never mind good god that's true, you're a what? i can see a uri geller a uri geler i make, i make a mess of everything that well if you do that to it, to something, no wonder, is that the right way round for you? yes which way you ironing? this way where you gonna stand oh yeah i'm gonna stand looking outside at the garden oh i must do he's got three pair here do you want them on st do you want it on steam? how dry are they? are they too dry? no they're just right actually are you sure? yeah, only i want him to try these on you see because i bought him a new pair yesterday what d'ya buy, are they cotton? are they cotton? in the morning, cotton, yes are they cotton? great they're cotton they are it's not hot yet, give it a chance it's hot still warming up, oh god it won't take me, i'm not spending a load of time on jar jamas ha don't bother ironing them then yes, make them look beautiful not, not like the other night when we went yeah i think that's been worrying him more than anything else you know i wonder why he keeps being sick well they said it was, cos his bowels weren't moving and that oh gosh he said that's, and yet he says now they're moving but, by themselves he doesn't need any, any anememas or enemas or whatever yeah, what she done with them? you've not thrown them away have you? what? the peelings, the erm, what you call it the sprouts ooh they love those i'm sorry, can i fish them out? i think it's a bit late now ow right, have plenty of peas there aren't there? more than enough i thought so what needs doing? i fancy a cup of tea it's a crack it's a cracking day isn't it? yes are you getting out there? get the, get the grass cut get the grass cut, what the heck is, oh i see it when they begin when you going down to the hospital this afternoon or tonight? can't do well look in that case i'll do this afternoon okay? and i'll do yeah about six o'clock i'd quite like to go and have a chat to bob otherwise if he oh you broke that, sprung that one on us i've been thinking, i've been thinking well i, he'll only just be getting in from work yeah we'll have this a bit and then carry on well erm, at half past six paula he'll be in the middle of his tea, you've got to give the guy a chance to turn round try to suit you, but think of him, he's just getting in from work and boom but i've got to get my well get that done what else have you got to do? i forgot, right well get yourself in there. but i can do in fact i'll go up and do half an hour before dinner well this, won't be an hour yet will it before this is ready? half an hour, the lid of this won't come off this oh no it's not ready yet, leave it on oh for the bacon oh the bacon's alright, you don't want it dried up, hate dried bacon right i'll go and do erm right off you go, go on, clear off you okay? fine, if i get them done be ready for the is this all the ironing there is? oh yeah i'll do those trousers then that's all there is what about these jeans have you checked those? no they've only just gone out oh those aren't ready, they've only just gone out right i don't know whether paula wants to put another or what? i'll ask her might as well now while it's, the weather's as good as this, paula, paula yes love do you want another wash done again? you might as well seeing the weather's as good as this oh yeah oh that's all this lot that's four, six do this four one on an economy on an economy right, what else, what's in the basket? nothing are you sure? well there are things in there, they need hand washing but it's all but there's a shirt in there it needs hand washing a striped shirt? it said on the label, very strong colour, risk it in that four wash, go on, on the four wash well it's, a bit crazy if you've gotta a shirt, is it one of mine? is it one of those new ones look how strong that red is yeah but it doesn't say hand wash it no, it said for the first wash it's a very strong rinse where does it say that? on the label, but it's cut off hand wash, hand hot, four, machine fifty from a label that's been cut off, it can go in a four wash, cos it doesn't matter what it's in with cos it's only on shirts for us. that one isn't, that's tony's, yeah, er mine i'm not bothered about those right, i'll leave you to it call you down for t dinner when it's ready like a cup of tea like a cup of tea would you? do you want it stirred clockwise or anti-clockwise? right can i just get to the washer? yeah alright, you're alright that's plenty, plenty such a beautiful day it'll dry ah it's a bit daft not to, isn't it really? it is really, well i've been hanging them out because it's, that's such an effort, you know what the cleaner s they iron better you know if they go out that's what the cleaner said the other day, she said have you been hanging your clothes out? i said yes, she said it's lovely, she said make it so easy for ironing, see that's right the trouble is i find that they go very boardy when you got it loses all the it's good when you put them in, if you put them in a tumble dryer yeah that helps them, but if you put them on radiators and god knows what round the house trying to keep them, get them dry dry actually yeah true, true, true well you've got to do it in the winter so oh yeah well not really stick, stick them in a tumble dryer if you're lucky depends how much money you've got that's a good t washer that i've bought you know what's that? well it's got thick and thin dryer oh, yeah, yeah and you don't get, you know how you get steam and these steam from what? these tumble dryers yeah it goes back into the washer into the vent? what make is it? oh i can't remember it, it's a foreign one a foreign mm, ah, i didn't realize your tumble dryer was on its, you could of had my other tumble dryer is on its what? on its you know there's something the matter with it oh it's only the return spring on it, there's nothing wrong with the dryer because you could of had mine ah there's donkey's years in that yet, oh god oh mine was not used no, there's nothing got rid of it yeah, nothing wrong with that what's the worry about it? well you see when you turn that you see turn, turn your control yeah and it's set and it should click back shouldn't it slowly? yeah it does that, so there's a oh i see return spring gone on it that's all mm get in the top of it one day nah, nothing wrong with that, it dries them, dries them beautifully you can get, well the trouble is with the new well done paula she's used all the hot water oh yes she's, she's had a bath did she wash her feet before? yeah well if, it's a stupid way of doing it when you've got a boiler that's heating up, you can just wait on a bit you might, you might as well wait yeah, it's an expensive way of of doing it anyway you see you might as well wait i can set it up yeah economy wash that's not, they're much nicer when they're outside oh yeah much easier to oh i couldn't agree with you more, that's plenty we got a good dryer yeah you catch enough wind there don't you? yeah same as this, this catches a lovely this is lovely this will be once that hedge gets up i like that divided hedge it's beautiful you notice how the pyracantha are there yeah, yeah these, this little group here are different from all the others yeah different breed, different variety it's a pity you didn't do your outer edge with roses which one the yeah the beech one the beech yeah that was already in i was gonna was it? yeah, oh yeah, that's gonna look good that when we, when we get it to something like how when it fills out how long did, has, has that one been in the pyracantha? pyracantha, about four years now and can you keep them that height if yeah, well we will do once we'll get them to the height we want we'll start trimming them and they'll bush out a bit more, that's not bad they're about four, four or five foot now aren't they? is that man, that man you i don't know whether to have a brick wall or whether to well you've got your hedge trimmer haven't you? yes but i cannot get so you've got the tool to keep it but i can't to keep it under control i'll never be able to do it myself no, but you've got the tool i'm saying to keep it under control yeah, but i couldn't use it so, so no so i didn't know whether to have a brick edge er a brick wall see these, this type of thing, this er pyracantha, the reason why you've go that, it's evergreen yeah its thorns, it's got thorns in it so it stops which is good it stops animals any well anybody can deters, deters them yeah you've got some, you've got flowers on it,wh those white flowers and then you get those lovely red berries you got them lovely red berries so you've got a mix of everything in it yeah it's an ideal thing where'd you buy those from? erm, a nursery up, going towards norwich on the a one forty oh yeah and he just got them in, real, there's a i tell, i tell there's a better one now, you know, er where we found out, you know where we got the laurels from at the other side? yeah well they are erm, we got those from a place the other side of ipswich on the shotley peninsula, i think it says paul doubleday in, name of the nursery and that's a genuine nursery, not some of these pretending to be a nursery in a garden centre, he se he grows stuff to sell to councils and you know big organizations yeah, they're good plants and everything cracking plants really good ones, and alright, they're not, they're not the cheapest in the world, but you get quality plants but you get quality, oh yes you get what you pay for i suppose if you're buying by the thousands the price'd come down a lot, but when we were only buying about, you know, forty odd plants i tell you what i, the hedging i liked too, is if you can have a hedging that comes, you know, some of the garden centres sell them that you got something every month of the year oh yeah, well you could plant it yourself couldn't you? yeah, oh yeah yeah ah, that means trying to but it, that, that's okay providing in the winter, you haven't got some of it that's evergreen and some of it that you, you know, then you've got to hedge it's oh yes you've got to cut it and mish-mash in the winter you see, er, er mary was a bit silly because she's had a lot of air plant, they just pulled them off and threw them out, now i wouldn't of done, done that because i would of kept some of those mm because she does it, she didn't know what was in the garden, cos she hadn't been there long enough, now i think that's silly because i think you're better waiting a couple of years, seeing what comes up what it does and then decide yeah because you're spending a lot of money when did she move in? oh, well she bought the house same time as we bought the house you see yeah but when did she move in though? she didn't ah, she didn't move in till after us,aug in the august sort of thing, the summer that we moved in, a couple of years ago mm, mm you see she didn't give it till the spring to see what came up, i mean she had it all paved which was silly because they, there were a load of rose bushes and that mm, mm which she, i mean you, you're throwing away a lot of plants that you might decide to keep true very true but i do like that hedging i think it's beautiful when the red berries are on it mm but er well it's not, it's not a bad hedge and it's now starting to get you know you see, i'm a, a good growth on it i'm static the only trouble is with our front is that because we're getting old we can't manage, we're not going to plan each garden, so it might be easier to have a, a big lawn and then concrete the lot ha paint it green no, no but it, it, you've got, i mean that hedge it's too much work, see archie was gonna come and do it this year there's no way that's gonna happen now is it? no, it's not gonna happen no way well you see archie said to dad that he would help him to take all the bush bit out and he got paul down for that, paul and tony and myself yeah he'd of done that you see, all the with the grubbing out well it's the, it's because we don't want the it's a isn't it mainly? yeah, but it's bits of other things in that yes it's gone it's gone, the bit, it's gone too straggly after oh yeah you know once you, you, you lose all that bottom mm and it's all dead wood really mm, mm and you've got to keep trimming it and all to keep it nice and, and chic, no i, i think like you're doing a good job here aren't you? keep going, that one now. that's nice, bought these yesterday aren't they nice? bought them yesterday? yeah and you've washed them? well erm, i've just gave them a quick rinse because the erm, that stuff's the sizing of the, i don't like the oh he will be pleased he'll think it's his birthday he will, well this is his celebration didn't you know? pyjamas it annoys him because his best pyjamas are here and he's seeing the specialist he won't be annoyed well he would if, if he gets to look at his he doesn't get annoyed father does he? oh no no no but i say he, he would be wanting to dress up today in this well he can't he can't, he's got three pair here, oh these are beautiful. where you get off at? er debdens debdens, they had a sale on well three pounds hasn't, hasn't everybody got a sale on? yeah, they've all got a sale made in hong kong, brilliant yeah, yeah everything's made in hong kong hong kong now yeah or pakistan i've not seen that, right do you want a cup of tea? no thank you you sure? what time's lunch then? well it's gonna be a long time off that yet, another half an hour oh go on, i'll be a devil ha, be a devil i'll be a devil and celebrate celebrate with a cup of tea, that's not bad do you want a strong cup or a weak one? oh a strong one a strong one, you're really celebrating are you? there you are, you can stand your spoon up in that oh you can tell they're made in hong kong go on then why, how can you tell that? well, look at the sleeves, i mean you wouldn't do that in an english, in an english pair of pyjamas why not? put a piece in no our clothes are definitely no correct i, are, it's on your heat that those are very bad take them back to hong kong take them back right slow boat to china who sang that? i'd like to get you on a slow boat to china? i like to get you who was it? who sang it? what's his name, ooh cup of tea, have you finished it yet? ah? no i haven't have i hell ah going through the diary now, it's at that stage, enjoy it? oh, oh oops push your chair in a bit, how's it going? alright are you out there? just pull the mike out crash, bang, wallop, gone what they did for work today a little bit of exercise, desk work a lot of exercise, exercise. not do you spell roughage like that? where? put it back to fibre, go back to your bit on fibre roughage a section on oh it, it might, it won't yeah pick it up cos it's in speech marks i'll put the speech marks back after it it just doesn't look right let's find out no that's how you spell it where is it? oh it's gone back i suppose it's gotta be hasn't it, when you think about it yeah ah, you should be able to tell do you want me to check your spellings for you? yeah, put your speech marks round it now rough, yes okay, put your speech marks round it, i take it all back then i said about that, it just didn't look right. do you want me to check spellings for you? no it should do it, oh i've got to go through it yet properly i thought you'd done that. no, not yet have you had any more problems with it? whoops you didn't, ha didn't can't yes that's okay veg vegetables think of vegetable oh i, yes that's it in convenience con that's convenience, convenience partici par paricipate paricipate , that's a good word that,paricipate ex yeah, alright, exercise, exercise rather than exercise exercise oh yes exercise, where is it now? there where? there that's exercises yes you just want the s off the end that's all yeah oh put it in if you want to then erm it's got it in there yeah i got it, i've got it yes right down there, but okay do they live in a house, bungalow, does it ignore, that's it, save that and try that eight thousand characters so you yeah eight thousand characters yes not eight thousand words? you find out the number of words if you spell check go on then how many words have you got? erm, ignore that ignore that ignoring a lot no just ignoring two one thousand, two hundred and one thousand, two hundred and thirty it's over twelve hundred bytes and this is in a maths oh yeah it takes about six thousand where does your maths come into it then? oh later on what will it be? what will it take the form of, your maths? oh dear statistics? yeah i expect it's what it is erm control format centred, yes, statistics, the whole thing is, the paper, do it, computer pardon, you need what? do it with the computer program, it's a lot easier, use erm grass or i thought grass was, had a lot of limits on it? oh yes it has, you can get round it, if you use erm basic and can run graph from basic, and then a basic program to counteract grass limits i put a capital j there on yeah, cos it is a title isn't it? i forgotten about doing all maths coursework how's it going? how's it going ton? fineish fineish? oh yeah that's it, good lad, is it still f seven to flip it over from no control f four, some strange, it's got a mind of its own control what you really want is a printout of all those commands there is so you cho so you can actually print it out well if you bought the it might go wrong what might go wrong? you lose it all just a slight detail, leave the door right, what this may explode into a thousand fragments so i'll just have to start all over again without having to print out copy are you saving this on disk or is this going onto hard disk? well it's the same thing the same thing save it onto hard disk all the hard disk is, is those little floppy disks on top of them stack of them, yeah, but how d'ya get it out, are you gonna save it from the hard disk onto a floppy? yeah, yeah that's what you're going to do? yeah you just save it instead of when you save it you just won't be enough room to do that type a drive but, er yeah, cos if something does go wrong, if there's a power fail er now transfer save, oh that you you would be up the creek without your paddle wouldn't you? er, no, not really wouldn't you? well if it didn't save it on that how does it, how do you get it back? it save it every nine minutes or something, it's got a backup save, you know on the without you telling it to save yeah and a you can set it so it's erm, it says, backup save and you type y or no yeah and you can set it so it'll backup save every minute or every hour really? yeah, it's brilliant so you know on the nimbus when it's turned itself off it won't matter you might only lose about a paragraph of work well it depends on what you, what ah this is good your frequency is operator oh no ditto, ditto my or may? key words key words none none comments comments rubbish i hope i get an a you daft thing version number one thing is when it comes up on words that how do you know, oh it's saving it onto the disk now and it tells you how much spare there is left how many bytes are free yeah nine hundred and ninety nine characters oh a hundred and twenty four thousand, nine hundred and twenty eight bytes free free on that disk, there's considerably more on the hard disk, ha it'll probably fill yeah a hole what frequency does it save it at? you can change that escape if you want options, auto save, enter auto save into the minutes, zero for none why don't you do it one, every minute? erm it's just what happens if you because if, if you're editing it yes, yeah and you don't, you don't and you make a mistake yeah you don't want it to save it you can undo that so, so when it's auto save it's, then you edit it does it auto, will auto save again, does it take out the things already in that you've altered, that you've edited? yeah it's just like a normal save it overrides yeah it overwrites everything yeah yeah, you can you can tell it to and you can so what you, auto saving every ten minutes yeah i think you're a bit wrong there old son no you're alright, cos sometimes you make, you, you know, you're writing and you need a flow of ten minutes cos then it interrupts and says do you want to save this? oh i see what you mean it doesn't, it doesn't do it without you, not telling you you can, you can get it so it doesn't interrupt it just does it without you knowing it, that would be good wouldn't it? well you can without interrupting your flow you can but if you're, if you make a mistake yeah it just saves it like that yeah oh my, oh my goodness i've lost everything you've lost the lot yeah, so can't you undo it though? no so it's auto save every ten minutes yeah, with this is the window options mm where'd you get this program from? dudley got it and where did dudley get it from? i don't know was it was this pirated? yeah yeah god i, you know, shouldn't do that nearly everything on that hard disk is pirated no, no way dad oh i'm sorry oh well i never knew you were you get the law in here ah, rewind that tape no, staying as it is, use this in evidence oh dear you shouldn't of brought the subject up well you should be innocent shouldn't you? lily white is anybody lily white? dunno this is rather an conversation no, go on clear off he needed any leave your mum alone, paul leave your mum alone can you shorten that thingy then oh be quiet er i don't know what we'd do without you paul i'm gonna, i'm gonna potatoes are nearly ready what? have you turned them off, have you turned that thing off it'll cook in the heat that's on there won't it? take the top off the chicken yeah, but i mean, i'm gonna take the heat off it's pointless it blasting till the end is it ready? yes and the top of it and the sprouts are on, twelve minutes you say yeah, on its you've got about twelve minutes left right okay that's what i'm warning you of i can do the gravy and all that, yeah, i can sort that out, i don't need to be told that, you're alright you want me to do the gravy? pardon? do you want me to do the gravy? no you're alright, paul's good at doing the gravy am i? is only paul who can do gravy, so he tells us have you got to fill all those twelve tapes up? twenty twenty, blimey, are they all blanks then? pardon? are they all blanks? that's why i've got to fill them all up because they're blank, yeah oh my god i wouldn't be filling them up if they weren't blank, are they all blank? what did you put me down for accent? your accent? yeah. outer space how, i haven't got an accent have i actually? i don't know non pardon? it's non non, neutral, neuter now give it a chance to cook yeah it's mm, mm, if i put the chicken on paul oh yeah it'll only take you a second to do that, bring you, mind yourself, let me just, whoosh that's hot it's smoking right it's not cooked yet pardon? it's not cooked yet oh it is well and truly cooked, tell me when whoops oh damn can happen that'll do won't it? yeah plenty, just sort that bacon out, here are thank you er what's the matter with it? looks like it's green it taste like it's green? it looks like it's green it looks like it's green, yeah oh no it's horrible it's horrible is it? yeah let's get the put that in here, that's right it'll soon get up where are the plates? are they in the top oven? yeah yes it's all no thank erm no have a knife please out of the drawer, just check the sprouts, wash, they looked cooked, they looked cooked yeah that'll do they're cooked aren't they? yeah i'll just put them back in for twenty seconds just to get them up to heat, keep your eye on this paul, it'll go over if you don't yes it's started to boil now these peas are neon ready there we go right yeah it's boiling it's boiled? yeah right turn it down put the cornflour in shall i put the cornflour in? yes, that's it, keep stirring it okay? put the plates it's paul aren't we? yeah you're alright, yes have we got the plates? you're okay, yes we've got the plates ready we're all ready we're all ready, we're just waiting for this gravy now it seems to be a certain line of fat round it where? let's see that's okay, keep it going paul fat's good for you ha keep it going where's the fat? can't you see it, look? that's not fat. that's not fat it's fat when you see all grease on the top that where? when you pull the spatula across that's oil that's it that's oil that's oil that,, that's axle grease oil is fat isn't it? yeah that is oil you a good cook paul? of course he is, he takes after his dad cos making the gravy takes after his dad don't you paul? don't, don't who does the carving yeah it's coming out now, right, can you get the dish out please? are we ready? where's the steel? oh dear out you come, right, can we can i have a go at carving it? yeah help yourself you'll learn how do you know when you're getting low on batteries? how do i know what? when you get low on batteries? you've got to change them every so often, mm, it tells you to, i suppose that's to stop it erm suddenly dying on you, it's sense i suppose why did you can i have the dish out, the carving dish, out of the cupboard no you can't cos i can't find it it's in there i'll get it okey-dokey and the chicken now, open the oven, let's have that paul, please get the other, if i can find it, what's the matter you haven't burnt yourself have you? no, it's the heat brought it up, no leave those in, otherwise it'll get cold, er, can you get the plates out now please? why didn't they supply you with an adaptor? adaptor what? so you can plug it into the mains plug it into, oh this thing, well you can't move around then can you? no, but if you stay sitting down ha okay plates out are you gonna carve this or what? yeah i'll carve it you want drinks er orange juice or anything, ha? it's hot is it warm paul? just a bit oh it's the int it? you don't carve the onion ah, don't you? no what do you do with the onion then? throw it at the cat loves the onion and she always eats the onion it happens when you're when you're brought up in the war you see, waste not, want not i hate it there you are try that side, here you are how much do you do? like that at that angle aha cos if you keep following that cut then sooner or later you'll come across the, the bone okay, there, that lot the breast bone don't worry about that, right oh you're learning to carve just inside it, he's trying to, why not? good idea good idea, one day you might be able to do it, oh i'm not cagy handed oh he's cagy handed int no he's not, no he's not who's left handed? tony tony can you that one please? yep, what you do is see that does, does it just lifts up, it doesn't oh you've been trying to turn it haven't you? never mind what a wonderful thing education is yeah, it's called commonsense, but never mind never mind never mind my dear never mind, er we don't need that much in there no i know, i'm going to make two glasses out of it be that, the best way of making this, can i show you? you get a jug make a jug full yeah, seriously oh, okay what do you do now? now you start to share it out onto the plate now you do the legs no you don't, no you share it out first and then you see if you need to do the legs or we can have the legs, the legs on, on butties or or a curry, yes okey-dokey, here we go he likes chicken breasts oh good, that's enough for philip, yeah no, no this is philip's oh, okay, that's alright, okay what i, i carved the chicken i carved the chicken i tell you what i can't do is carve sing there's a technique isn't there? carve meat yeah oh aye i like the way he gets bits of fingers in it, you know yeah yeah, that's the bone, it takes a lot of skill that getting a bit go on then who wants a leg? erm, yeah, put a leg on somebody's, it doesn't matter who and then we can sort out later, is that, that the right number of plates? six two, four, six, yeah, that's alright, yeah, leave that there shall i just dish no leave that there another leg ha takes one to know one ah, damn okay where'd you get those from for the get the what from? the tops for these for what love? that's enough oh no, you'll want a bit more than that in shall i carve the you reckon? yes, yes it's very strong that one i know it's very strong right up to the bottom erm, where'd i get what from? those top, those new tops that, it came with it oh i've seen him with yeah can it be put on a, on a coffee jar? no a coffee jar? cos it hasn't got the screw not with it the, it has, you know the old coffee jars when you empty them oh i know what you mean yeah er, no, never thought of that, to tell you the truth now these sprouts mother, these sprouts they've been cooked in the microwave for twelve minutes okay, well we don't know yet, until oh that onion's beautiful int it? to keep it open put sprouts, sprouts in a microwave and veg cooked in a microwave and, if you can get it right if i can say you must get one of these you know, oh yes must get one a microwave if debbie comes home i think, i'll see, i've been saying that but i was thinking if, i'll have to wait and see debbie they are nice, they are good things to have whether hank them oh he's not right, are you ready with the, with that paul? try and get to boil again pardon? no it doesn't matter seriously, turn it up, right up they are, okay right up, okay i'll put it in a jug shall i? yes arthur, if he comes home as brass as you can do mine in here paul if you want a button yeah it'll be a waste of time how would it be a waste of time? well, he'll, he'll wait up for his meals oh i see what you mean, no i don't think he'll come home as bright as a button, somehow or other i think, i think you'll get the bright times won't you, like he's been in hospital yeah but he's been really really on the ball, but i don't think it's gonna happen much, not for a month or two what you, you've got to keep it you want something on your, you want something on your feet or i know old son, you're gonna stand on something sharp or something hot spilt on them and you are gonna scream and now where er, what you doing with the gravy, put it, let the people paul's put their own on paul's got it in the bowl, in a, in a, on a bowl? was that philip's that little one? the one with the leg is philip's yeah right if he doesn't like his bacon we'll have it, tell him if you don't want your bacon cos there's one here without bacon you done 'em? right who want there's a leg here, bits and bobs have you told your mum tony that dinner's, can you tell her yeah, i'll have that, the other two, bring the gravy through, here he is with the gravy in here with the gravy paul and the gravy who's having er what? oh i don't want the leg that's not yours, you can sit wherever you like i'll sit on paula, paula, it's all out, come on oh what a lot of you have some oh we haven't put the, paul you haven't put the stuffing on oh no shock, horror can you get the stuffing on a plate okay tony taste nice that do you want more potatoes because i can't eat these yeah i'll have one potato rather than start and oh are we on air? we're all on air, we have been all morning who's on air? you are oh god while you've been swearing and that been going ever so, police'll be round tomorrow what doing? arresting you what for? yes that is terrible ooh what a lovely dinner between us now do you have to re play it back to get the voices in the order? no, i can remember forty five minutes' worth no problem, oh tony er paul get erm a bowl, erm, a dish, a dish, don't put it ah take it, no way out, it hasn't got a pourer he's put the wrong one, he's put a soup bowl out give the lad a chance it hasn't got a squirter is that why it goes like that? yes you've got to have a a lip the one with a lip like this can't put it into my well this looks good this is delicious mm, oh it's beautiful, oh, oh best meal this year, oh paul made the gravy who made the gravy? i made the gravy paul made the gravy and i carved half the chicken yeah he's been carving the chicken, yeah don't forget your stuffing arthur, do you want your stuffing? they are erm, no ah nice one tony i tell you what's nice stuffing if they have it in ulster paula, is the chestnut one yeah it is nice that, yeah it's a nice one that is it one that ken and margaret used to have? mm what was that? have you had your, have you had a sprout? mm aren't they nice? yeah they're quite nice oh you're a wonderful cook arthur keep 'em coming why've you got a glass here? why've i've got a glass and no one else got a glass? no if you look around cos you're having wine, would you like the spare? there's six glasses everybody's got a glass yeah, but why i've got a wine glass and everybody well we thought you were having a concorde you see that's for carving the chicken you can have another one who didn't give it a stir me those are nice it's all at the bottom in the microwave those sprouts are, did you put water on them? tiny bit well not just a tiny bit, you put about half way up don't you paul? you don't cover them in water nice aren't they? mm, they hold the flavour better don't they? yeah, get the taste of the sprouts they must be good for you no it's a bit like pressure cooking ain't it? yeah, we're under a lot of pressure, yeah mm who's going you're a cook? to visit grandpa this afternoon? mm, mm who's going this afternoon? i'll go i'll go this evening i'll go this afternoon taking me pack of cards this afternoon and a crib board oh, i'll, i'll go with you this afternoon then what to play crib? it's a who's going this evening then? paul and i we, we could get a crib school going tony all bring their drips over and er god knows what you might find he's very tired this afternoon why? well because they've had, instead of having this sleep, they'll, they'll have had their consultants round mm, true so that you may find that father isn't up to it today he'd have missed this morning's siesta can't he have a siesta in the evening? he can only have a siesta a siesta is an afternoon sleep afternoon sleep no it's not, it's just a sleep it isn't, a siesta is an afternoon sleep oh it's just a sleep a siesta it's not a sleep taking during the day no it's not you can have a morning siesta i would say a siesta is an afternoon siesta a sleep afternoon mm granted, it's a sleep taken during the day cos you're naked you're wrong after he's had his lunch he might be sleepy it's only quarter past one well it's they, he'll be having his lunch now one fourteen and fifty nine seconds mm, mm then he'll button down for a bit mm, mm he was very sorry yesterday what? he decided to have liver and it wasn't mum's and he said it was horrible what was it? it was ox liver oh yeah it's a bit sharp that ain't it? mm, it's very strong ox liver you know that liver's very high in cholesterol no is it? mm, mm it should be it shouldn't be high in cholesterol cos they've been on about people all the sugar goes into erm fat i think you don't, this is a much nicer meal, isn't it? than what? vice versa yeah depends what it is than yesterday what did we have yesterday? home cooking oh you and, you and sally had the same, at the pub pardon? how much did they charge you for that down the pub? i was disappointed in it i was disa oh we weren't were we ton? no he said he was surprised at all the things that where we went was were high in fat is and he was surprised well i'm sorry but where we went it was great weren't it tom? well last time i went to that one it was okay there you are then weren't it? mm but that, yesterday i was very disappointed did you tell them? the first time we went we had a great meal we had a didn't we ton? yeah. what did you have? well the first time we went when we went all together didn't we? we had erm, what did we have tony? it was erm salt and vinegar crisps and a packet of pork scratchings it was nothing unusual was it? no there wasn't anything unusual on the menu no, ours wasn't, was it? ours wasn't, but what was there was good that's right oh yes it was good wasn't it? so you'd expect it to be up to some sort of standard bernie's are about, usually very good yeah some standard or other i was very, very disappointed oh the service was poor wasn't it paul? i mean, i mean she brought the no she had a smiling face she, she was a very nice girl mm, mm well she brought the meal and she, she had to go miles to get the sauce, didn't she? yeah, she made it she made it, mm cos about two minutes later she come back with it just with the sauce where you'd think she took the order this chicken's good isn't it? chicken's good isn't it? mm it's beautiful chicken i think the carving bit's the best oh i do, i think the carving's brilliant only on the left hand side of the chicken anything left? let me think who did it i don't know erm don't know this what we last night dad mm, mm it's beautiful i love chicken it's good for you ain't it? it's a good meal this is a good time when you can't make rude noises mm, mm throw us the bin pardon? throw us the bin we should of done some more roasties for you shouldn't we? are you hungry? well they like roasties and i didn't realize sit there going ssss ha oh, enjoyed that, good meal what we having for pudding? there's a tin of there's ice cream i bought them and ice cream could i have erm, rice pudding? no ah no gonna have that tin of pears have that later and there's ice cream there's er, erm big tub of ice cream put it in the bowl and bring the ice cream out so it can thaw. tony does the pears you bring the ice cream did you know the word yorkshire pudding is in the english dictionary? why? yorkshire pudding i think i'll have the rest of that please paula, good stanley go away, er, erm yorkshire pudding didn't he? did he? yeah how did it go? can't remember i don't know how it goes i've forgotten but it it's from the angels do the next thing, ha what? yeah, pancake day on tuesday next tuesday? mm, we all make pancakes right, we're all gonna make pancakes when's pancake day? throw them up, catch them when is it? have them for school we could have a trial run oh paul's then we'll all have the school dinners go away then in the afternoon we have pancakes for his pancake races a real good day bet it, bet it goes flat on you though shall we have a competition, ha, ha, ha no what's he having lemon put on yours just see who can be sick first i think oh shut up liver pancakes who's eaten the most pancakes, oh maple syrup i had i had and i went green oh there's a bird on the bird feeder pardon? pardon? children can go in the kitchen and cook them make a load in there how'd you know? double checked it what about the chicken machine, what if they put no the automatic potato peeler it's good, it's lovely there does the vicar come for the race? have you invited him? barry came last year, but i mean the vicar usually comes for the pancake race doesn't he? oh, i gives the pancakes his blessing mm, oh it's just tradition i don't know if they'll do that really? we have pancakes for school dinner ah, but don't make them no because there's three hundred people in the school children to dress up in little pancakes mop caps and we have easter bunny come to our school well yours are silly hide the easter eggs easter bunny hides easter eggs, easter bunny does somebody dress up as an easter bunny? no i could just see it a local farmer coming out with his gun ooh ah ah i've got it, bang easter bunny you hide all the eggs and the no, no, i do pauline and pat climb out the window hide the eggs what eggs are they? climb out the window and the telephone go and then you climb back in and then you climb back in and then the telephone goes said these oh god just see it and then they go, the kids go out and look for them who, who telephones? anybody we can get i'll telephone why don't you just dial i'll telephone you paula and then that re and that just phones itself up oh does it? does it cost you anything then? no no oh there you are and you phone up and it goes hello mr bunny oh you wanna see, the kids'll see you dialling it's bugs bunny no they won't, they'll just hear the tone, tone the easter bunny has arrived well if you, if you dialled and put it down and walked away from it then it rings, oh no, i'm in the hall and the telephone rings in the office oh they hear it ringing do they? and they bring telephone through so the, so the door's slightly open, so they can hear the, oh, oh what a surprise, oh oh it is the easter bunny talking to me do you think your mother, your grandma should dress up with a mop on the back top drawer, top drawer, bottom drawer, middle drawer, well i don't know a bobble on her, on her back you just get out the path, you just get down the school path all these kids are growing up, yeah, thinking there's this bunny dropped eggs, easter eggs all over the place well i can remember my my grandchildren coming to our house the national curriculum has nothing on her can't you paul? and grandpa lifting you up oh yes and the cuckoo clock you used to and setting the cuckoo off the cuckoo clock used to lay cadbury's creme eggs yeah do you know, do you know what we did with that, that cadbury's creme what? we gave it to tony really? he couldn't eat it oh what a pity, he's, paula you're dribbling er er and what happened? oh can't you remember these coming to our house? oh yeah, yeah well thing is too, at christmas we used to have the erm, when we lived in buxton we used to have the front bedroom where they, do you remember paul, and the bay underneath it? yeah yeah and we used to hang out of there on, on a long, long string all these bells and jangle them on christmas eve oh yeah, yeah oh we used to do this at home yeah and er oh santa's here and that, god well, grandpa used to do this with these, when they were little i, i used to throw a handkerchief through the door, do you remember that? no oh yes do you remember that? you used to think that there were i had magic, i could throw a handkerchief through the door i remember paul putting out all the plate for the reindeer oh yeah, the carrots, the mince pies carrots, mince pie and the don't swing on your chair otherwise you'll break your neck oh that was rather a nice thing to do though for easter what break your neck? what break your neck? no, for, for easter break your neck what an easter bunny? mm, an easter bunny, now so you have an easter bunny coming do you? we have pancake game, we do all the traditions, pancake i tell you another thing they do what about harvest time, do you have all the traditions then? we only have harvest do you, do you burn somebody in the in the stew in the man, in the big man? throw them out you don't want a put a, put a all the traditions, nothing like the good old days another, another thing you can do for easter, another thing is, er you can go back to the old tradition of the pay sex the what? the pay sex rolling them down the hill? yeah, rolling them down the anybody seen the tin opener? yeah it's in the bathroom drawer bottom drawer it's right in the bottom drawer oh it's where it shouldn't be the, sorry, er, you know the pay sex you boil the what? sounds stupid you boil eggs you know ordinary eggs hand me the plates go on you go and get me a spoon and you roll them down the hill in, in onion skins yeah and then you colour them or you could use er did you know chenille if you want to dye wool, onions are a great dye for dyeing wool yeah, you want to see hilary's dye dyes, they're on plastic, do you know what she does, she gathers all the plants and herbs mm, yeah that's right and she brought up, she had a bag as big as a bin liner yeah she'd been up to scotland oh well done son and she got enough different colours where, where'd she get them from? she just goes er walking over the moors wild flowers no how many no how many people walking or people's gardens no use grasses yeah, you can get some cracking colours oh hers are fabulous how many people want them? i've only got four and she hold on, the lad wants to know, he's talking to you how many people want, do you want i only want ice cream, thanks mum? you'll have a pear yes dad? have a pear put that away we don't want it yes we have that's gotta go in the box a pear can we have a couple of spoons, yes tony just a couple take the that goes in the box paul take the plates to the dishwasher no she those are soups first of all she i know she spins her wool, she gets one and, and does her own spinning and weave and then she dyes philip, you're nearly finished yeah take it that way take fourth time, please will you take the and she hold on just a moment ah, he wants a pear, another plate please does anybody want, do you want yes please who doesn't want? nobody, everybody wants well then somebody's gonna be short here cos we only got five bring another bowl i only want one pear i don't want two it doesn't matter he only wants can you get a bowl oh i thought it was pears you were short of no not short of pears a couple, a couple of pears here and she dyes all her er wool and she's got the most here take these fabulous colours really? yeah, i'll put the kettle on i think and er, things like that the, what was the one that was very unusual that was spot on there was two what they expect them to be yeah, beetroot yeah, yeah, done that beetroot i did this with a group of children years ago in erm, in buxton i did it when when we went to camp while we went yeah we laid, we all laid on our own yeah, off you go thank you away rolling, rolling, rolling if that's philip's just a small right the ice cream, did you know ice cream i is the most common way of catching salmonella? yes especially after eating chicken oh you tell us paul won't you? and bouncy ice cream that bounces around bouncy ice cream it's even worse ice cream paul put another spoonful on there i don't want it, if that's mine, i don't want any juice right, you don't no do you want some more ice cream? yeah another spoonful please brilliant that's philip's oh he doesn't want ice cream doesn't want ice cream you don't want anything else on there do you? oh yes i wanted ice cream oh, i've only got five ice cream on that dad i brought five five what? five what? erm your bowl? there aren't six, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, oh it's magic that i ain't got a bowl it's magic that does anybody want more juice? no ta no there's more juice ah, it's magic paul do you want some more juice? yes please go on, that's enough, yeah oh yeah fill it up fill her up er, he had a we ought to start speaking in spanish so the people who read this dictionary don't understand it oh, my god i don't think it's actually erm tony can i have your, do you want some more juice? er, ah, yeah please erm pass it down then teapot is that enough ice cream now? that's plenty, loads put the lid on, put that back in the erm freezer top be it cornish did you put the kettle on as well paul? no right no it's funny though, i'm, colours come up totally different don't they? mm, what you'd expect yes yeah, when you do your own dyeing your dyeing you know, plant that you pick and you think what's that gonna be berries and red and it turned out black green she does things out of the garden like sage and thyme and rosemary and parsley and what's the national flower of england, the, the, the one that used to be on the thruppenny bit? thistle thistle no, not, not the thistle the portcullis not wattle, it's er it used to be a thistle on the little thruppenny it wasn't it, thistle's the scottish one, it's that round, the frown with the round head and a thistle that wasn't a thistle on a thruppenny bit are you sure? go and get one of the old thruppenny bits i'm eating my it's not a thistle it's a er a rose no it's not the rose portcullis daffodil a petunia cabbage it's a wild flower it's a wild flower a daisy, a nettle is it thrift? thrift i don't know what a thrift is we've got a as far as i know a thrift to be a large mongoose inhabiting the mm upper well don't eat it so quickly i'm not eating it quickly at all, it's just catching a filling every time i eat it. don't eat it, don't eat i think cornish ice cream is delicious especially as it melts and forms a don't you think tony? this cornish ice cream? mm, not as nice as eldercar eldercar's ice cream is brilliant who's eldercar? it's, it's just made out of cream and fruit, nothing else it's and no additives mm, this one's lovely got wobbles in it? bubbles, bubbles wobble, wobble banana you ain't tasted nothing yet can you buy it anywhere? from the corner shop, oh no where else, no, no you can't buy it that's what i mean, can you buy it anywhere? you have it, it's beautiful are you take it to ho the hospital? for grandpa what? and supposing it melts and we have to no no he means the the recording stuff the recording mm you can tell him that joke can't ya? what joke? which joke's that one? oh aye yes you start laughing keep it clean no what's the irish contraceptive? you know what it was? we've heard it don't don't oh no we've heard it anyway he woke up in the middle of the night, sat up and spewed up all over sandra! said you dirty little bastard i said! if mike had even got a bit on me i said i'd have bloody killed him! i said it'd be divorce, grounds for divorce that, i said i wouldn't have that ! urgh! she had to get up and wash her hair and urgh! the dirty git! i said i bet you were popular. is she working now? yeah. i don't know quite what she's doing. oh. some little county or something like that. westminster. yeah. oh! so er, yeah so he rung up mm. said oh he's not here i said, he working. oh i said i'm coming up we're just on our way. i said oh i said we're going up to my mums. oh it was the dancing school . said it was a fortnight ago and mm. er, i said if it had been a normal saturday i said we'd have cancelled that you know, we'd have met you in duffley but er, i said my mum's supposed to be dancing . so erm you know, i can't do much about it. oh never mind, he said you'll have come down here, i said yeah. have you been down there yet? no. mikes been down before though. sometimes. erm so then so we sort of finished off having a chat, he said, oh we'll see you when we see you. so i went back into the spare room, i was doing some ironing which was on the you know and the next minute the phone went! oh bloody hell it's like a mad house here! anyway, i went to the phone hello! hello! alan? oh, he said i've done the wrong number! i said who you trying to get, daisy? he said ooh yes, he said oh, i said god, i said you must just remember that this is the number you've just bloody dialled! no, he said i didn't! ooh there's one for you, mandy's pregnant! oh is she? yeah! i knew she would be. as soon they come back i reckon it was conceived when they went skiing in the week. what does daisy have to say? i haven't seen, we haven't seen them. we've only heard via the grapevine. oh! so er i reckon she just want a skive from work to be honest! she said bef , you know, she said before oh yeah, you know, when we've been having a joke she said oh god i could do with a break from work she said, oh yeah! not much of a reason is it, to er not really. yeah, i reckon you wanna grow these sides down properly now and stop twiddling with them! it's the sides that are dry. that's not bad. and erm when glenys is back on the scene get her to level it all out for you. so she wanted it really dead level in the front i reckon you'll need a whole inch off your back here. bloody hell! it's nice and thick though. and you haven't got that twiddly bit any more where your head used to go. you know, when you get up in the morning. yeah . i don't think i'm gonna take any more off to be honest. don't, just cut it straight. twiddly bit off there. and my fringe. yeah. yeah i mean, like this bit here is very white blonde as well. you know, your hair li , i suppose this has dried as well yeah. because you cos it's been by your face like, the back's still wet. but erm it's a different texture like, with the colour as well. so the next time you have it streaked don't tell them to keep those bits out of it. although you can't because you'd have to have the the top done wouldn't you? no, when you just have your roots done mm. she doesn't touch these bits with no. does she? yeah. cos it's a lighter colour there. yeah. and then it's a lighter colour. all different colours like a tiger. yeah. which way shall i turn round for the fringe? erm you're gonna have to turn this way. what you doing with the fringe then, just that'd be like fringe . are you cutting it? no. i hope you have! ! i hardly cut it shape the ends. you promise you didn't get any edges. i am not ! it's not straight. no your fringe is like erm dry like the sides isn't it? mm. you've been cutting haven't you? i have not been cutting it! i'm telling you now, i haven't! i'm sure you wouldn't dare as well. mm mm mm. oh do you? you're alright,yo you only just make . do you have your washer on every day? yeah. if it's nice, you don't think oh i better do some. have you got a mirror here? i'll show it you. it's in the . it's just on your right there. i'll get the have you layered it? what do you want? have you layered it? no. it's on do you see much of stevie and karen? no. well we saw them, we were outside the chippy one night and they were going out they were whatever you call it? oh we want to go out! we want to go out! okay then. she's oh she's put weight on, she looks . i mean she dresses up well.. mm mm. so he often enough does he? yep. apparently they're looking for a house now. i can't see either of them making a commitment. mm. anything like that. how old is he now? must be about twenty two. so he's young? no, but she's . go on the beach? ? really? yeah. but though? . oh i see, they have been about for a while. ay? haven't really been over as well. yeah but i think they should. mm. twenty one again isn't he? . your friend talks a lot about them now don't you? or something like that. you been exercising ? ay ? mm! all those ! we'll get sarah as well. that er i thought that was quite good that innit? what? go and put some bi bit of mousse on it now. okay. and then you can it for me. super! are you gonna go up? gonna do and let ? yeah well we'll sit in there. if we can work it. why what's up with it? well it's falling apart innit? can't you afford a new one? well could of had a new one. the last two years it's been falling apart so we have to ke kept kept folding the wheels back on ooh sorry! things like that. bloody hell! is it in here? yeah . what do i want now, mousse. ooh you are good dogs! you are good dogs! have a quick hoover. hoover the bits of hair. you'll have to move from there my sweetheart. oh god where's the bloody thing on there? that'll do. that'll do, dogs! good god almighty, there's a thing! isn't it? there's a bloody thing! cor! you managed to work the old thing. yeah! it doesn't stay up when you oh no! it falls down and cracks you on the head and things like that! actually i've moved it a bit too far that way have i? oh let me do it. only wa , still a bit long that way. okay? it's close. that's bet , better. oh sorry tams! oh you'll have to come over here. by the dog. push the things out. got a big wire on it. oh is it? ooh sorry! it's a bit professional this isn't it? no,. big shot. is this a new one? yeah, well the other one,bought me one for christmas it before christmas we went and got this. it's got a diffuser as well. put the diffuser on. i find it dries, it helps a lot that does. can you put loads of mousse on? yeah well come on then! ooh! do you wanna mint? no ta! wasn't asking you sweetie peetie well you're supposed to . i want it styled, right that'll knock the socks off my husband when he comes in! oh my god! what do you expect! why, what's the matter my hair? ay, i'm not very good at the old styling lark, i'll say. put that there so it doesn't choke him. put that there so what? so i don't flick my ash everywhere. hello! better watch out now she's gonna come and get me with this bloody thing! ooh ooh ooh! erm right. oh what have you done to it? what? well it's all over the place now! shut up! now, how do we do this then? erm . bloody hell fire! i never use a hair dryer any more. oh christ, i'm not very good at this ! i don't wanna pull you! i'll tell you when you pull me! oh well when it hurts anyway! oh hang on, i can't do that! i'll have to do it like this. they always kept the the brush moving and that don't they? yeah alright then. well i don't. i'll have to do it like this ! tell me if it gets too hot on your head. right. well it probably is . so have you got to, is that burning or no, it's alright. too hot? it's in my ear though! so do you think ? so you still haven't been to see this house in are you? your not gonna tempt fate? no, not yet. there's a little row that goes down beside it round the back, i never knew there was. don't ooh! er nearly took off then ! erm you go down a bit of a lane and it's gets you on the through road doesn't it? yeah , you go up a stream, a river. yeah. ooh the dogs will like a pool. it down there. oh they love it! are you going? i never been round there i went up the other. we went to the river in the car. is there much water in it? well didn't go in my car, went in his! in the . ooh you got a floppy ear ! i know! i know! ohhh! well i don't know whether this will like impress win when he gets in. probably go out again! no, i must admit your hair is looking a lot thicker and healthier. we have lift off! ? what? it's alright, is it blowing? oh god, i don't know how all the hair, how hairdressers could stick doing other people's ha , i think your i , your own is so much easier to do because you ac , you do it your own way. yeah. that's it. i'd be too damn anyway, i would! hot? blowing cold on my back! really? well this should of done . oh what? oh the . i'd assume that's nice . oh! oh! we'll have to go and . you what? you know, and i told you about that i'm having my er done. yeah. well he's he's nearly finished it now inside, well he's transformed it no end! it's all fitted cupboards, swirling table spotlights! oh good god, very nice! so it's about ooh that's when we're to help out with? yeah, he's got a few big jobs. oh bugsy, go and lay down! she's daft, she's sitting on this! mm mm, yeah. laddie used to be like that didn't he? you know, when his and oh! nudging you. how are they, your nan and granddad, alright? yeah, fine. seems ages since i saw them. it was new year or well christmas wasn't it? new year. whe when did you see them last, christmas? yeah, i went with you didn't i? i had my santa's hat on. oh that's right. we came with you, what were we doing? i dunno! you said you were going to your mums for something oh that was right. and i come with you. you were coming down the pheasant pub then were you? aye, that's right. oh what's she been chewing? a mint. oh i thought it was chewing gum! do you want your hair done as well? don't like the hairdryer though do you? laddie hates it! he tries to bite don't think she likes it. oh! no, you don't like it. ooh show me teeth! she's a big softy isn't she? how old is she now, four? er, well no she'll be four the end of the year. ! ah! dale left me . and my dad's picking me up. ay how did you get on that er oh wait till i've finished this bit. stop it! what? how did you get on that friday we went to chester? yeah? and you winny's things, did he like them? oh yeah! he were made up with them! was he? i didn't need them though. but they're nice. ooh ! exactly what you said he'd say! and how did you get on on your night out the fo this friday night? oh it were crap! was it? where do you go? you meeting in the falcon weren't you? yeah. yeah. , bloody hell! it's terrible when they start laughing! oh that's pretty! ooh she's beauty! ooh a little punky i was laughing at the sheep up at my mums tha over the weekend, they had that many you know they get branded well yeah. they had green, they had red and everything ah! they look like punk sheep! right what do you put a bit on and then erm dry it with a hairdryer. oh this'll be a good idea! right, we'll do this. what we're doing ? we're gonna make it stay. so as that you don't, you won't even have to run your brush through it in the morning, how's that? oh superb! right. stop it! yeah, yeah. it's ! no don't, don't cos you'll hurt me! oh! ooh that's nice! sit down! tickle your ears! ! has it worked? oh yes, i've cracked it! oh love it! she's got the hang of it at last chloe, you're alright now! we're getting there. we're onto a winner now. and the next. oh stop it! i think i might dye my hair blonde you know. peroxide. do you think it will suit me? i don't know. go on then. well if you use that streaks at the front why don't you try a wig on. werhh hoo hoo good idea that is. just you make up for it. oh! lately, so. don't have to. how are you? don't beat him up! erm no i don't think i have actually. oh . no so . you'll have to have a go at them with all these rabbits! i've said no. oh oh gosh! what you talking about me? how did you know ? i was here . i was in the army. and ca ! go on! he made you and then he says, then he says, no, we went to and he's in the gym so ha! and they left me behind! your worst nightmare's come true ! and what the hell do you think ! what did they say ? and what did mick say? it's not a little dream. erm don't get advice. it's er the wedding that causing the problem isn't it? that's the ultimate . tony foretells difficulty or a journey followed by a successful issue in your ! but becomes a serious matter. no that's . didn't it? just wanted the horse and trap basically ! when i woke up i didn't really wanna go! normally like the isn't it? with the i went you know, you can have i hate it where that girl is! you know you're not gonna get back to sleep until you've been! don't you just hate it when that happens! don't you just! oh ! right are we onto and structure, page two of this. okay. yes. great! great! great! great! great! great! great! great! great! that bin's getting on my wick ! i saw peter last night. i said bloody hell don't you dare bring him in! he says, i've been about, he said i see you still sleep in your bed , but you're not putting them bloody pistachios ! we used to eat loads of them and er keep all the shells and then put a few in everybody's bins, so as they're not pissed off ! well it's boring just putting them all in the the same one, innit? oh god! we're gonna meet graham today! bastard! he's in manchester today and is he? buy an engagement ring. he's not! we asked him that. ah! well i'm just . well you'd laugh if you see my girlfriend! . have you crossed this outside? yeah. he won't be wanting to work either. oh not,. how do you spell work! here are, lots of new know about. thank you. but he's coming back later. oh! come on ! we want to get those . i know! oh well, yeah! no. definitely! denise has got one of those as well though ain't she? what? money! yeah. nineteen ninety two. i'll do any notices announcing police officers. you could of said! you'd better hope and pray that you wake someday into your own . don't like smoking . mm mm ! okay! so so what bit is okay isn't it? no? no. aha! missed that. had read poisoned er located on the murderers in the area around . come on! the will be o seven hundred, two nineteen hundred hours. mm mm mm mm, service station, mhm mm. behalf of the welsh police of swithra cymbra stop swearing! mm mm mm. agreed with the chief superintendent ? ah! i don't know whether that is what he's gonna be called. the police officers at the service station which is course of action . that's still the same, the nineteen seventy four road traffic act , that hasn't been updated that we know of. mm mm, mm mm mm,. ooh ooh hoo hoo ! all located on two lane roads when no bike has . correct? mhm. it is essential therefore, the true , mm mm mm into reverse, mhm mm mm even in time . okay! right. morning billy! morning! early bird? early am i? half past nine? not early is it? it is for you. lunch time not ! right,each service station will have a supervisor don't get off me trying to be funny. see the officer aye, what the survey , stroke, site manager. . i reckon that one should be sur survey stroke supervisor it should be. survey manager, stroke survey. mm. because it's the . well no, i don't think we need to put stroke supervisor, ah? we're gonna be the survey manager and not well that's gonna be su they maybe . survey survey manager. and survey manager is above supervisor so in a way then okay. you know, it's not worth erm so the last paragraph that you find is twenty nine. we could just put manager couldn't we? or advisor, manager couldn't we? er well i just want to you did say you can quote erm no problem, anyone that . made u well up to a under twenty drivers. yeah, okay mate. yep. erm and it's mark john. er ? er two years. service yes. catered and designed jason william . how old is he? er, seventeen. ? no. these are stunt school. how about that. the survey manager has located and designed the survey stations in the chief superintendent or whether he's had them built. that covers it dunnit? oh erm i was gonna say is it necessary to put and will be at the survey site at all times to ensure a smooth operation . well it's gotta say it up there doesn't it? it's gotta go up there so yeah. i don't think you need it in. and that's it for that innit? there should be some more there. hello! yeah. i'm . that's a special one! ooh why thank you! . how did you come across that? been in my filing tray for about two years! oh! . oh, okay. i thought we were , i can't find it. erm oh alright. oh, yeah that's what i thought. these the files? yep. that one. no, that's the fax machine yes, fuck off! yes. he doesn't think! well you know tha were you on our division ? mhm. so who's responsible for ordering downstairs. . who? gail is . oh is that right? it's up on the poster here as well. it isn't tracey then? no. no. tracey don't do it. it's chris and then . just writing something. ah, drop all your things if we're gonna start the fully, are we never, are we only gonna have a supply? oh good cos you've got them. around a audbury because we're loony tracy will do all okay? the files and what er and others i could mention! you shouldn't, shouldn't to be asked! you should both have everything there right so that's yeah. yeah. well then erm the local yeah. bus company and emergency services have been informed of the survey as well as local members of parliament. the best one to talk to and get something done is erm and then we need members erm. of parliament. . all local bus company erm no. ah, i didn't realise that made fo right, so his actual but a is because it's been used though. that'll be aha. i mean that doesn't include any assessor of payment no. mine's just reading the emergency services have been informed of the surveys. yeah. erm right, so what's the point of that ? well, i'll have to er, send you a copy of my er invitation to renew from the so i need the ? yes. yeah, okay. well my accounts er mike, shall i put stroke in there? yeah, and you'll have to erm yeah. and i put erm i just,areas. on there, yeah. i don't know why it's called . survey managers, right. we can always change it, managers whenever . what i'll do is er those out and actually have them as a you know, usually they they don't have that fly sheet on, that's no. an inquisities for the report. what i think it, what makes it good erm, is that so we could er lift the paper out and yeah, once again so dingy grey means no, i'll that, we'll just type it in again. but i'll take the originals cos it's on there before. aha. so we'll copy that, or we'll have to change it to survey manager, this one anyway. and i think when it says notes for supervisor, we can just put manager down there. and manager , and , yeah. quite isn't it? yes. e any driver over twenty five plus the two name yes. couldn't you manage to get ? well you see that's erm it's er and it's er what's your wife's name? er no, okay. the car, it's thirteen ninety five eleven. okay. you mean a ? yeah. er he doesn't think he's . what have you got? ay? i crossed it out because i . and it doesn't. i thought that was okay, what you'd done? i crossed it out because i thought it was gonna say cos i thought it said,survey managers are instructed to work at all times equal to supervisor so i crossed that out and then i realised that it said intervene. erm well no, no . oh! thought it would. yes. we'll have a few reports to do next week. yeah. yeah. . thank you, bye bye!dunno what's going on after those files! dunno what . got all the flash gear and the policemen were fined two hundred pound well and as long as i reply they can't do anything. they in a no. round about four hundred yeah well there's so i stayed where i was. this year their policy's has and direct line have sent me a quote for two hundred. that's er di diddle di dee dee dee dee der isn't it? er direct line that was , that was . oh. which one was that? you know, with the little car jumping up? something direct. yeah. i thought it was called that. it's not direct line it's something direct. yeah but first direct that's it. them. is it? yeah. i don't know. i don't make a habit of admitting to it. why ever not? hello! no, i'm not worried i'm got something. yeah. yeah. how long have you known him? yeah. he sent me er to renew his what? and some so what do you do? i'll take the pleasure. er er er! okay that's fine. then we'll have a . okay. g okay, yeah great! yeah, i'll just ask him,and that is er what, all the red ones have to be used for now? ah? or do we send them to mike? i've done this before. oh we don't? have you? oh! right, okay then. i'll put them back onto your phone. bloody hell! ay! what a ! right, thanks mate! he's gonna sell me out and tell you all the kirby ones. . pardon? . yeah, number forty seven. aye! aye! to the try and avoid him. yeah,. are you alright? no,. mhm. probably went down too much . down? down. about eighty. there's one er, i think she's right. we'll now try oh yeah. no difficulty. go back and let me but, yeah, i mean that's the idea. the idea is that's the one tha that's generally . well yes it's . that they like to mend it. it's not there don't want . no, you're alright. i don't see that any more. then erm ah! that's better. we should draw a . mm. oh, that, that's just er that was er quite reasonable yeah. really. yeah, oh yeah! cos they ain't gonna get none! i mean, it's a bit easier with , cos everyone's done it before and you all know what you're doing. mm. have to be a like a hawk on mine! mm! yes,. well no it's erm the same as and the stuff. it's er,. what's his first name? . and is he liverpool? is he ? chester? do it yourself! this ain't mine ! i know you ! bee um bum bum . you look tired tine erm put it on there.. well jus haven't you got enough to be getting ? well, so that's erm , hello! hi! sorry? yeah. monday? give us a clue billy? oh! no i didn't. oh well done! well done! what you getting? brand new? well? mhm. mhm. well congratulations! er i can't say. no! are you coming back? erm, yes and no. no, er it's not closed it's left open. well i think everyone's finished anyway. is it? ha! is it? mhm. so have you got a nice to go with this promotion? mhm. oh god! alright. mm. where's your two front teeth? sorry! mhm, course it does. are they going to increase your wage a after the recession? you got a clause saying that? well you wanna get it in writing! well i would try and get something to that effect in writing. yeah! yeah. where are the other ? you shouldn't have given it! mhm. yeah. mhm. mhm. you are kidding! mhm. mhm. mhm. why? what have you done? ah, i see! no. why?mm, possibly now. you sound different. to rest. no news of him at all? aha. get out! it's last years. i just . that's alright. just don't have an accident! right, that's a good job done there! does that mean i gotta phone judge cap in hand? well it could be . i'll see him wait until i've seen if will's got his. well i'll see if i can the te telly i must have a . well if will hasn't got his it means they haven't been issued. i think they were, were. i'll see er i'll see to . have you sent a letter of confirmation to mr ? no. that's on the list here. good morning! can i speak to please? i'll ring him today and tell him. mhm. and er he can wait if you haven't done hello, is that tammy? no hi!, hi, it's rob from the moore office. erm i'm of er i'm been asked your does he have to give him a quote before you insurance er ay? certificate. does he have to give you a quote? no, cos we know his the r a c book yes. of . what about the er not got a as well. certificate and it's last year. we'll know more about er, to it. yeah, i'm sure i'm i've okay. i've gotta try and do my figures. i think , i'm fairly sure you've er sent me one previously. yeah, if you could send me i'd appreciate it. oh no! okay? lovely, thanks a tammy, yeah, and you. bye bye! tell jan there's one on the way. okay. right. see if there's a letter on the file. mhm. and if there is read through it and see the you know,li and then peter will . okay. actually i mean my mammy's not very good. i can imagine them doing it now for all it's worth. the, did they have a piece and you cut off the bottom? no. no, they had to have it with them at on the that were just the temporary passes for the motorway that we had to return to department. er,. yeah. right, well i'm sure yeah. they put four two nine. forty two pound twenty nine. well when they put they put sixty five staff before the surveys? that's still four two nine six that innit? and it's still four two nine six. well i dunno. four two nine six. but the report's called six three five. . i've gotta do the books for those files on sunday so i'll, i've had to leave no. it till then. yeah, smashing! that'd make more sense wouldn't it? cos i'm going through the document, er er documents issues. down what? documents erm, from first of january this year. so,required. i'll put that on this slip of paper. oh! okay then. and there oh! i want to see it's bloody silly! so these agree? i think we should have somebody in here you see. mhm. erm so, put on here since january . okay. so that re , will just be a couple of reports and something right. you going home now? alright? yep. so that that's of erm as big a task as we'd really like to. yeah. this one. hi bob! i need to know as soon as possible now whether we can do these surveys or not so i can fill the policies in. so as soon as you can let us know, i'd be grateful. i hate that! i'll phone you thursday night all night,. who bob? he's going to yeah. mm. it's three quarters of an hour when i was at mum's. yeah, it's annoying when they say they're gonna ring isn't it? i mean, er, i've got this jean hanging on. mm. she'll be there won't she? she's dangling! dangling, ay? i just can't go ho oh oh mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm . bless you! oh! actually jim erm mm. we've got a feller that we use for , he's seventy odd! george. george . why? well this feller that rung me was sixty three. ah, these agencies use them to . so! no, we wo , we were just saying like that it's a shame because like maybe some of them have been made redundant or oh i see! yeah. yeah. and bev was saying do you get more men than women? and i said, well it used to be normally. but it's all women! more women. well, yeah it was. but now more and more maybe cos they're taking early retirement or getting made redundant i mean it's the fellers isn't it? yes. so that's not going? get them go and look at you what jan? you know when we're going to look at the four forty five i may as well get book four two nine six seven. or, perhaps we could just think of something between us. oh yeah, i don't see why not. i'm sure we could er put our heads together and come up with something. mm, heaven! ah! now this miss . what's mr like to get hold of these days, during the day? er afternoon's dodgy morning's alright. cheers. have you got an address close to it? yep. oh i've knocked it off. some something better than erm the daniel one. did you hear about that? permanent no. letters. have you got you want a . yeah. i, i've got these letters out of here to be honest. it's almost on one. mhm. and er get her the confirmation one she wants. and erm yeah that's it. put all that on for the attention of mr ray i had a phone call from so she said to me come down to the admin , so i went down and she'd opened the letter and give it back to us. the post. what a stupid so i took it home and stuck it under the door. and have we done anything? no. well it had department erm frank and chris the tomboy! that address and for the attention of mr ray and it arrived back to us! oh this chair . can i copy from ? no you bloody can't copy! god you're so cheeky, you! i'm not gonna have them going to ormskirk mm. mm! what a cheeky, young,person! you copy the ones from to these didn't you? i did not! those are, pull out of my own head those are! no! did actually. eighty? yeah. mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm . don't keep them all in my feet! i do. wilf is going to be , sergeant . mm. you just wanted write his name didn't you? well i suppose so really. but if you know them why should you put dear sir? well it's true. i see what you mean. does seem a bit silly doesn't it? here, that's innit ? just , i don't believe my luck!. what? oh! put your phone down. sorry mum, i thought you you was out still. oh! you all set then? dad pack all his gear did he? mhm. mhm. good stuff! and here. yeah. quite an expanse of blue sky. well . yeah. oh yeah! mhm. can't be bad! they rain all the time. mhm. mhm. yeah. mhm. been a busy little bee. mhm. and you mum i've got yeah, will do erm i've forgotten what i was gonna say now. oh pat phoned, she does want jenny to baby-sit . okay. okay. m mick , national officer. president, as delegates will know this is my first report to congress from the public services section and in the time available could i warn delegates and onwards to eight hundred thousand members, their families and all their friends and the eight million members of the t u c and their families and their friends, a sizeable group of british people who, president, now consider theirselves as past, present and future patients of the n h s, and rightly so. well, do i have news for you and them. in april and may of this year, the junior minister of health, in april tom announced from the shared platform with david , the tory mp for havant, but better known as a leading member of the tory think tank, that regulations had been lifted to allow private capital to have free access to the n h s. to undertake buildings of hospitals, the complete management of hospitals and to retail a full range of health service products. president, david followed on and said, and i quote, the successful takeover of the national health service depends on agreements being excluded from the present unions and he has not been contradicted. president, this was supplemented by the secretary of state, for health in may, last month, by golden virginia bottomley, that further offered an invitation to the private sector to form a partnership with the government to take over our public sector n h s, to provide the flair and the entrepreneurial skills and imagination of the private sector of british industry. what an example, what a record. u k private industry nil, the rest of the world ninety nine and still playing with plenty of time on the clock. congress, to it further we have no lon we are no longer patients, we have all been renamed customers and clients, the new management practitioners use the language of the private sector, corporate customer targeting, they refer to theirselves as commissioners of health service care working with the internal market. fund holders talk about buying the best products available at the lowest price, regardless of the inconvenience to their customers mick, mick, just one second. colleagues, let's keep it quiet please. regardless of the inconvenience to their customers who might have to travel further afield, away from their homes and communities for treatment. fundholders have to manage their financial budget they're told, like any other small or medium sized businesses. they want to develop purchasing skills, cash flow skills, cost control skills and labour cost controls. president, for those who have, i'm sure, who'll these fundholders are, we used to call them family doctors. congress, president, the government have got no guts to announce publicly that their intentions to privatize the n h s on a date that will give the leading time with the razzmatazz and p r that they've done before to sell shares, to sell shares in the british public in a public nationally held n h s, there will be no seats, there will be no inspector morses and others as there've been with telecom, gas, water and electricity. the present private health service companies like b u p a, that already, are all ready to move into the front door and take over, so this year my first report on the n h s could be replaced in nineteen ninety four on the report on the private health care industry unless we take action. based on the following, delegates, i've been lucky like many of you, to live in a country where i have had available to me a national health service that has been the envy of the world. like you, on occasions my family and i, along with my parents, have had the benefits of being able to use the national health service free of any ongoing financial burden to the family. there is an opportunity now on the fifth of july, when this may well be our last chance to demonstrate, all of us, along with health service workers, cos they can't do it on they o on their own. and publisly , publicly and forcibly on that day, which is a date we should be celebrating the forty fifth anniversary of our national health service, instead we will have to demonstrate to save our national health service. president, delegates, brothers and sisters, i will be there on the fifth of july. i hope you will be with the health service workers, not just because i have the honour and privilege of being a national officer with this greatest union in the country. not because i directly res have some responsibility for representing our membership within the health service, but because as i said earlier this is my health service, this is your health service, it's our families' health service that we have enjoyed the benefits since nineteen forty eight. i will be out there because i am, and this may have surprised a lot of, a very youthful appearance of me, i'm gonna be a granddad in august and october this year. and no tory government is gonna take away our health service from my grandchildren, who will be born in a national health service hospital and hopefully will enjoy the benefits and the care during the rest of the nineties and well into the next century. i move my report to congress. thanks very much, mick. colleagues, turning to mick's report, page seventy one. yes eric , london region. erm, i suppose we ought to say welcome to the health service, mick. erm, i doubt if you'll get too hard a time from us. possibly not covered in the report is the commitment that this union is giving to the health service. we've created a new sector, i, i've seen over the last three or four years, changes in the way that we've tried to represent our membership in the health service from the old industrial conferences to combined industrial conferences into the er, current erm, section that we've now got. the problem is that we seem to have dropped the health service off more and more and more over that period of time, and i think, to be fair, the programme sums it all up, two motions on the health service. it used to be a major debate at this congress. it's not just the better the members that we've got working in the health service, it's about everybody in the room and everybody in the country who wants to use it and we've gotta get it a bi a bit higher up on the agenda at this union and i hope mick, that you can give us the confidence and give us the commitment, that that's what we're gonna get from this union. seventy two. yes. president, congress. i should like to ask mick regarding the long service ambulance personnel. a lot of them now are being took off a and e work, put on out-patients and most on it's now the art of trust. i was took on to be able to keep the written terms and conditions. thank you very much. thank you, seventy three, seventy four and seventy five. mick. thank you president. er, eric erm, asked about er, profile and resources and er, hoping i would er, provide the conference, confidence er, of our membership in the health ser of getting the profile up. eric, i reported to the c e c on saturday night when presenting the, the health service conference report, that i would be making a detailed report to the next er, meeting of the public services section committee on resources er, on what i see in the first five month of my er, ten year of office er, what, what we need to do, to play our part in the public service, to extend ourselves within the er, the health service. that report, i trust will be adopted by the, er the public services national committee and go back to the c e c for the endorsement and er, watch this space. i just, birmingham region, i think the delegate who came up second about long service ambulance staff and the going down. if i could see him at the back i'll er, i'll just get the question a bit more clearer and i'm sure i can help. thanks very much. alright, thanks very much indeed, mick. colleagues, national health service, composite motion fourteen and motion three o five. er, composite fourteen to be moved by liverpool region. president, congress. doug , liverpool, north wales and irish region. health service worker. the latest demonstration reforms proves the point what trade unions have been saying since the inception of trust hospitals and i think the word trust is the wrong word to use. it should be mistrust hospitals because the people who work in the service were all guaranteed certain things which have not come to pass whatsoever. the whole trust of the reforms is to break up the n h s piece by piece. if you worked in the industry you would see what was happening and you would be aghast. you just do not believe the moves that they try to do. the main thing is they don't inform you of what's happening now until it's happened and then they say, oh well, we didn't need to consultate with you cos it doesn't affect your members. but in knock on affects it does. through privatization, privatization of occupation and health. privatization of finance, privatization of all the ancillary workers. that more or less exhausted now. the only people who seem to be excused from the privatization is the senior management executives. morale in the service is at an all time low. through the pressures put on our members by the private contractors, if they get recognition, and not guarantee, no sick pay, reduced holidays, no check-off, the, i could go on and on and on. then the fortunate staff who are still employed and they're regarded as fortunate that you've still got a job, because that's what the management use repeatedly to professional people like nurses, sisters and other professional organizations who work within the health service, you're very lucky to have a job. there's very many unemployed. why should you complain? our nurse members have been waiting now, some of them, since nineteen eighty eight for grading appeals. there are twenty eight thousand up and down the country waiting to find out, have they got the correct grade. that is a legacy of the late mr kenneth clarke, health service minister, now the new chancellor. god help us with the economy, if he comes up with a crackpot idea like he did over these grading appeals. so because of the embarrassment, mrs bottomley has instructed all her regional health authorities to clear the backlog of these grading appeals. but mr walgrave, another minister of health decided in nineteen ninety one that he would do with a, a famous thing called section thirty two. but he was in a peer mechanism which had been a longstanding thing with trade unionism management for many years, with no replacement. so what they decided to do, they would accept the clinical grading appeals which says that a panel can be up to six members, of three members of management and three members of trade unions. the mersey region, where i work, have decided that they wouldn't accept that. they would accept the panel of one trade unionist and one member of management. and they said that was the only way that they could clear the backlog within the time limit that mrs bottomley has set. this union and other unions have protested most vigorously to the mersey region and they decided then to go ahead with the appeals by approaching other trade unions, not necessarily involved in clinical skills, like the plumbers and the joiners of the a u e w and the eptu. no disrespect to their craft, that's their job, but would you like it if you were sister, working in intensive care or an a and e department to have your appeal judged by a plumber or a joiner and that's what's happening in the mersey region at the moment. we have other stupid things like a nurse training college, let's close it. so we close it down, to make it way for a new hundred bedded day hospital, which'll be not private, guaranteed, no way will it be private. but it can't be managed in this country cos nobody's got the expertise of the management of these sort of hotels. so we're bringing the swedish airlines to come over and manage it. so we close a nursing college and we're gonna make it into a hundred bedded day hospital and it's gonna be managed by a swedish airline company. that's the sort of thing that's going on at the moment. i could go on and on and on. i have to show you this, cos that is the disgrace and you all saw it, we read it on tuesday. there's no way that child should have died, but you know what these famous words in real terms, in real terms we are putting more money into the health service. the people who are putting money in the health service, i don't care whatever city you go to, you will see an appeal for a new kidney machine, a new special baby care unit, you're the people, the public are putting the money in, because they're certainly not. the only money they put in to the chief executives and their two yearly pay re review performances that they get, for cutting other people's wages or contracting health services and for somebody to have to travel that distance for a, to die, is absolutely appalling and it's a disgrace. i could go on and on and on and i've listened all week to the debates and i agree with what john said on sunday. i think a lot of people do. if we don't get together collectively to get rid this government, you and your families and mick and his grandchildren, there won't be a health service there. i move. comp fourteen formally seconded? thanks very much indeed. motion three o five to be moved by london region. did you formally move? oh he's coming, right. sorry. john from the london region. president, comrades. erm, congress, the tomlinson review of the health service in london contains many questionable aspects, midst conclusions stem from the misguided belief that market forces will resolve all the problems. that's sheer and utter rubbish. this is a flawed document and indeed it comes to very questionable conclusions. the under-funding of the n h s has been the main cause of our having reached this crisis point. closures and amalgamations are simply destroying internationally renowned centres of excellence and creating a positive area for redundancies, voluntary and compulsory, early retirements and relocation of about twenty thousand personnel. this massive attack on the labour force in the inner london, the most heavily deprived districts in the country, ignores the social dimension, the climate of deep recession and the added importance of an economic entity in local judicious management. a massive reduction in beds erm will have, no doubt, a follow up in the rest of the united kingdom, with its inevitable result on health care and jobs. the onward march of the trust program is destined to swallow up the n h s as we know it, health care delivery biased in favour of the money orientated, terms and conditions for the workers on a take it or leave it basis, short term contracts as the norm and reduction in sickness entitlement. certainly longer hours and less pay, all that was hard fought for tossed back in our faces. the intent of tomlinson will add greatly to the expected one hundred thousand job losses in the capital in nineteen ninety four, a rise of thirteen percent. are they careless or just mad. people in poverty is no way to help the inner boroughs. the n s, the n h s employs from the highly skilled and professional to the semi- skilled, manual workers, ancillary, clerical, maintenance, nursing and midwifery personnel, mostly locally based. what's to become of the pool of labour when the heart and soul is torn from london by the ruler of the political obviously, no consideration for the human consequences of its policies. major, i also mean my man, his decisions and bed closures courts disaster. patient care will suffer, demand for care will increase and er, primary care will this point again and again. while they haggle over the prices in the trusts, you must continue to suffer and the socially deprived remained bottom of the waiting lists. now look at the tragedy of barts. closure will destroy both the historical and the esteemed. the royal marsden, place of care and genius, to go, another victim. what about queen mary's, roehampton. hope for the limbless. i thanked him greatly. harefields, giving life with great heartlessness and many more. congress, fight, fight indeed with all your might. they have got it wrong. help to put it right. all must have heart. tomlinson, john major's government seem to be twin spirits, who know exactly the price of everything but the value of nothing. can no one rid us of these medalling and wilful misfits. i move. thanks john. is that formally seconded please. no. no? eric , london region, section three o five. sorry, to take a little bit of time but i did point out we've got two motions on the health service and erm, i think it's a little bit more important than just er, formally seconding. the arguments in tomlinson, too many beds in london. there's too many beds in london, there's a small outfit called the e b s, the emergency bed service. because they have so much trouble finding beds in london hospitals, they've got this little company set up to do the job for the doctors, so there is no way in the world that i can believe there's a shortage of beds. the hospitals of excellence, as some people have put them, the major teaching hospitals, all in london, nationally they import that expertise once people have done their training. you get rid of those hospitals in london, you're gonna lose the opportunity, and the colleague from liverpool summed it up, they shut a nursing college, right. and that'll go on, and that'll continue to go on. the major training is done in london. nowhere else will be able to afford to do it, so let's not pretend that it's not gonna affect those people outside. the trust certainly won't train. that's an area where they're not gonna get involved unless there's an awful lot of money and yes, there is money, for them for a training budget, but certainly not enough to cover what would be lost if, if tomlinson, and let's face it, if they win tomlinson it will just continue. the specialist units that would go, cancer units, heart units, children's units. colleague again showed you one, there was another one on television today. a child that's er, been unable to have an operation because of the closure of the westminster children's hospital. these things are going on all the time. other hospitals will not pick up, i don't care what the virginia bottomleys says, or any of the others from the kenneth clarkes, he's the one who did the major destruction job on the n h s. he then did it in employment, you know, it's obviously now gonna continue, i don't know quite erm, how much more damage he can do on the economy, but that's the guy who started it all. we've got a major problem in the health service. it's back door privatization. the are too few beds in the health service, whether we like it or whether we don't and what they're trying to do is force people to use the private sector. that colleagues, whether we like it or not is back door privatization and we've gotta fight to oppose it. thanks eric. c e c are accepting both these with a statement colleagues and i ask edna to put that view for the c e c. edna , speaking on behalf of the c e c on composite fourteen and motion three o five. congress, president. on sunday in his general secretary's address, john edmunds reminded everyone in the labour movement that we need to, need to express our arguments simply if we want to get the message across. earlier this year, i heard the whole of the debate about health care reduced by the media to just four words. it was about the debate, about health care in america and the words were provided by an american reporter. so the fir four words need to be translated from american into english. but those fe four words tell us a lot about what lies ahead for the n h s in britain, unless we're very careful. the words were coverage and cost containment. by coverage they meant the fact that thirty five million americans are not covered by health insurance. they are exposed to whatever illness or injury lady luck throws at them. and the free market system doesn't protect them because they tend to be too poor or too old for health insurance cover. either they can't afford private health insurance or the american insurance companies regard them as a bad risk to be acceptable. today in britain, michael is looking for ways to make people take out private insurance against all sorts of possibilities. poverty in old age is one. health care must be another on his list. you can bet your bottom dollar. by cost containment, the american media meant that the u s a spends almost twice of national income on health as the u k does, but for no better results overall. americans are no healthier on average than we british. the americans burn up lots of their health expenditure paying lawyers' bills. today in britain's n h s we are spending more and more on accountants and fi financial consultants and less and less on health care workers. since nineteen eighty nine, the number of n h s managers has risen by eight thousand, while over eight thousand nurses and midwives' jobs have been lost. all over, the tories are trying to import transatlantic techniques. n h s trusts has been going out of their way to recruit managers with experience in private profit sector. they want bosses who will be in human, american human resources techniques, like things, related pay and personal contacts. one very recent in those debation at ealing hospital in west london, has been invited to, invited the staff to hand back this year's pay rise. in return for probably not making staff redundant. probably. i think it's their idea of a loyalty bonus. you pay the boss instead of him paying you. we also now have g p fundholders. with these you can forget all you ever heard about health care based on medical need. their speciality is jumping over obstacles,to jump, queue jumping to be precise. other doctor's patients are having their operations postponed in order to allow the patients of g p fundholders to be treated first. money talks, is exactly what we warned about. cash coming before care. congress, i didn't look into any crystal ball. i simply watched an american t v news item, but it gave me a frightening vision of what the future could hold in store for us, unless we fight the tory policies with all our might we can muster. that fight will be helped if you vote for composite fourteen and motion three o five. thank you. thanks very much, edna. as edna indicated colleagues, the c e c are supporting comp fourteen and three o five. we'll take the vote. all those in favour of composite fourteen? against? that's carried. motion three o five. all those in favour? against? that's carried. colleagues, just before we go on to election systems er, there is a meeting at lunchtime, and two of the principal speakers at that meeting is bernie grant mp and billy . they're both sat at the, the back of the hall, would you extend a very warn welcome colleagues. thanks very much. election systems, colleagues, motion one four eight, one four nine, motion twenty eight. now mo motion one o three has been withdrawn by the, the northern region. at the end of the debate i'll call ernie to put the c e c point of view in respect of the three motions left because they're seeking reference. call motion one four eight to be moved by midland. les , midlands and east coast region. moving motion one four eight. president, congress. last year at blackpool i moved a motion calling for review of the c e c election procedure. we agreed to reference back. we agreed to reference back this year. i asked the c e c and congress to re-affirm the commitment given to us. the supreme body on this great union and the vote re vote in return reflects the fault in the system. postal votes are a disaster. the answer that our voting is no worse than any other union's is not satisfactory. we should be in the forefront and not compare our faults with others. i'll look forward to a working party to be set up to address this situation. this should not be put on a back burner. i move. thanks very much. is that formally seconded? motion one four nine, midland. john , midlands and east coast region. president, colleagues, i'll be very brief. this motion has been put up this year because there are changing circumstances which really do require us to give elections to the c e c deeper consideration. for instance, with the merging of branches, we could find ourselves in a very enviable position of more than one members wishing to be considered as a candidate for the c e c. therefore, it makes sense that the branch, in the first instance, should be addressed by these people so that we can make up our minds at that level as to who we feel will be the best person to start recommending to go forward. now, i do understand that the c e c has already set up a working party to look into this whole issue of elections to the c e c, and no doubt, that will also include a review of the byelaws. my region welcomes this and hopes this motion will be given due consideration. i move, thank you. thanks very much, john. is one four nine er, seconded? thanks very much. motion twenty eight. midland again. peggy , midlands and east coast region. president, before i start could you er, please ask erm, at the doors if they could keep quiet a bit because delegates can't hear some of the debates. you me you mean colleagues who have gone outside and they're having a chat and a smoke, what have you? yes. that's right. yes, if ya can hear me outside, we're watching ya. just keep quite while peggy's speaking. i have had some stick this week. president er, delegates. this union has done a great deal for equality. isn't it time that members standing for c e c elections were given the same equality with regional secretaries, who as we all know, all year round, in all regions, when a leaflet or a booklet goes out to members, in most of them there is a photograph of the regional secretary. obous obviously the purpose of this is to create an identity with the members. by inserting this an amendment to rule eleven, you'll be giving the colleagues standing in future c, c e c elections the same facilities. i understand the c e c are seeking reference. my region has agreed to er, reference, after it's been seconded. thank you. thanks very much, peggy. is that formally seconded? thanks very much indeed, and i understand that the region, midland region, are prepared to remit one four eight, one four nine and motion twenty eight. is that correct? conference accept that? thanks very much. so ernie will be very pleased to know that he's not required to er, star this morning. section secretary's report, keith , process and construction section. keith , national secretary. president and congress. it's my privilege and pleasure to present to congress the first report of the process and construction section. congress will recall that over the years i've made references to the close working relationship, which was developing between g m b and our german colleagues. given this situation it's a delight to report that the launch of the section in february was accompanied by the signing of an historic partnership agreement with our german colleagues. this agreement is the most significant, bilateral agreement between two european unions in different nation states and covers some one point seven million members and i was most heartened colleagues, with the er, welcoming comments that were made by brother david from durham city central er, clerical branch from the northern region in his address. erm, the partnership agreement er, arose from a clear conviction by both unions that positive trade union action is better than rhetoric. that it is inadequate for trade unions to merely pay lip service to a european prospective, or to be deterred by the refusal of the u k government to accept its european responsibilities and deny rights to u k workers that are enjoyed by every one of our european colleagues. we assert that strong trade union relationships, on a day to day basis, must be developed in a bilateral form and this agreement provides for substantial trade union cooperation in the european community and beyond, and it's already materially advancing the interests of our members and assisting the development of free and independent trade unionism in eastern and central europe and the former soviet republics. and the importance of this work, colleagues, will become clearer later in this report, but at this point er, president, i would wish to place on record, although he's now has to leave er, to catch his plane, the attribute to my friend and colleague, who was here during the earlier part of congress, as an honoured guest. he's one of the co-architects of the agreement and there is no doubt that his vision, energy, enthusiasm and dedication cannot be over emphasized and is deeply appreciated by this union. congress, the section held its inaugural, national conference in april and unanimously adopted as priorities for the section, four main areas of work. recruitment, new agenda agreements, health, safety and environment and europe. all areas in which the section has got a proven record of achievement. because of time, i intend to concentrate on the european dimension. now one of the first fruits of the partnership agreement with the germans, is a successful initiative on joint training and education of officers and shop stewards funded from the e c fourth programme. it's a two year project, which in the first year includes three large seminars and the production of a number of booklets together with a training video. the first of these seminars was held in march, when sixteen members of the g m b, principally lay activists, and of those principally members of the section national committee and five officers participated with an equivalent number of german colleagues erm, at the training centre in . now it was the unanimous view of the entire g m b contingent that the seminar was stimulating, exciting and laid the basis and the foundation for continuing cooperation on a day to day er, basis with our german colleagues. the second seminar will be held in july at national college and the third will be held at the training centre of the german mineworkers' union in october. a union with which we'll be amalgamated within the next eighteen months. now, the entire project, which includes language training for, for all the union's activists, together with the conclusions reached will form a handbook on training, for distribution throughout the european community. now, we readily recognize, congress, that there's immense prestige attached to this initiative for the g m b and over two hundred activists will have jointly participated during the two years of its existence. colleagues, the important thing about the agreement so far, is that we have already destroyed the myth, perpetuated by the employers, that joint work across national boundaries in euro- multinationals are inappropriate because of differences in trade union cultures, organization and systems of collective bargaining. this materially assists all g m b members and not simply those in the process and construction section. the two unions have also devoted considerable resources to promote the formation, growth and development of free and independent process trade unions in the former soviet block. both unions are proud to be associated with this noble and historic enterprise, and share the view that this work is essential to assist the people in those countries to build democratic, political, social and economic systems. we're already seeing the successes. four weeks ago in budapest the executive committee of the world international i c e f accepted into membership from russia alone organizations representing seven million workers. wind up please, keith. congress, we'll appreciate the significance of this situation and i commend my report. thanks very much. turning to the report, colleagues, one seven three, one seven four. yes. yep president, congress. who's the biggest? keith. oh alright, you go on then. certainly the cheek is anyway. no, just quicker. northern region. keith, i've had a look at page one seven four, chemical and allied industries and i can't find anything in there about the recent problems that we've had at allbright and wilsons. so i pa i turned to page seven, one seven three, the new section for the process and co er, construction er, section and i can't find anything on there. we've had problems at allbright and wilsons for some time on a change of working pattern, but this is just a modern way that companies have got today of de-manning people. now, we got permission to go ahead with a, a ballot for industrial action, which took place and although it was a majority for industrial action, it wasn't the required two thirds majority. i do have to thank on behalf of my stewards' committee er, terry who gave us a lot of help and also the er, regional section who also helped us. but when it went to national, everything just gone. the question is keith, from my committee, where the hell were you at in our hour of need? thanks very much. yes, colleague. thanks president. ken , midland and east coast region. president, i'd like to er, offer thanks on behalf of my membership in the process and construction section, on the false agreement, it was a very successful week and just to echo keith's words, those links that we made are working and we are in correspondence with the, our colleagues in and we're picking that up in terms of recruitment. thank you. thank you ken. one seven five, one seven six, one seven eight, one seven nine. keith. yes, president, congress. in answer, first of all i must thank ken for er, his erm, his comments. erm, the delegate from northern region referring to allbright and wilson. i think what we have to understand, colleagues, is that this report actually is put to bed, print-wise, well in advance of this congress. it doesn't in any way claim to be an absolutely up to the minute report of absolutely everything that we've done in the previously twelve months since last congress, and quite frankly, it just could not be that. so, we do apologize, but hope you'll understand er, the delegate particularly, that we just cannot ensure that the report has got absolutely everything in it. the involvement of brother terry hayes. i'm glad that you commented er, so favourably about brother hayes' er, attendance at your headquarters conference because, of course, brother hayes is acting on my behalf in that capacity. when you ask what happens at national level, well what happens at national level in these industries is that we have dozens and dozens of requests for headquarters conferences each year. i cannot possibly and conceivably, and no good other individual officer, actually handle all those and some them have to be delegated. in your case you couldn't have had a better officer, in my view, to handle that situation. i'm delighted that you were pleased with the response. thank you. thanks very much, keith. colleagues, we now have a very pleasant er, duty. i'm going to ask tom to make a presentation. thanks very much er, president er, to mark the occasion of the launching of the british er, boxers' association we'd like to make a little er, presentation to barry , who's the president of that association and erm who you know, of course, is the chairman of the institute of professional sport and the professional boxers' association has got the honour of erm, immediately being part of that er, body and has the assistance, of course , of er, the many people involved there. from the g m b point of view, of course, we have quite a sporting section and we're proud to have this link er, with both of the organizations and we're pleased to have been of some assistance to the er, british boxers' asso professional boxers' association er, in er, this launch and establishment we felt, because we've got the scottish professional footballers, who are well established and er, are very much an integral part of the g m b and we've got the northern ireland er, footballers, we've got the rugby players and we've got speedway riders all of which come under . mick , the national officer has been er, the link between these organizations and i hope that the er, professional erm, boxers' association will give some credit to the g m b in erm, establishing themselves and we hope, as an organization, that in the future that they can be successful and we can be sure they will be because they've not only got the likes of barry but they've got many other, prominent er, boxers who will, i'm sure, establish erm, the association in a very er, positive fashion. can i, on behalf of er, the g m b, barry erm, make a presen presentation to you this is the er, first er, picture that was taken at the launch of the professional boxers' association. we had it mounted and we're proud and pleased to be able to present that to you on behalf of the g m b. , of course, will er, go down the of history because it's their very first executives meeting. many may they come back. thank you. we had tried to get a couple of er, here in portsmouth but he had to attend , so we thought as we prepared for this conference this morning er, on the miners, that it would be appropriate to get a miner's lamp to put and have them simply inscribed with the erm, the memory of the occasion, which turned out to be president, tom erm, to president and congress, ladies and gentlemen er, i'd first of all just like to say thank you, a big thank you for your support. the professional boxers' association would try er, many years ago, and it didn't have the support of people like the g m b and the s p f. erm, i know there are a lot of genuine boxers that are members of the g m b and i want to thank you because we just want to know that . thank you very much indeed. professors er, congress. just very quickly i'd just like to endorse what barry has said, erm. i was when i actually bumped into the bishop of the other day . but very, very quickly erm, i'm actually delighted that this organization has helped breathe the life into not only the professional boxers' association,we are extremely grateful. . thank you very much indeed. thanks very much indeed, barry and don't let anybody tell anybody in the trade union movement that the trade union movement is not moving. it's moving constantly and we're increasing all the time. thanks very much indeed, colleagues. colleagues now, back to the agenda. g m b trains a number of motions in this particular section, two four four, two four five, two four six, two four seven and two four eight. there are a number of points of view the executive want to put and i'll be calling paul at the end of that debate. first one, motion two four four. southern region to move. other movers, if they would come down to the front, it would assist. thank you. frank , southern region. in the past, congress, personnel departments and management have been in the privileged position of using computer technology. in some cases, using it in a re reactionary fashion. to hance enhance, both their arguments and their presentation when dealing with us, the trade unions. most of us here, will have experienced graphs that assess the performance of the workforce, expenditure and income of the company. most of these are a computer designed programs which effectively help our counterparts reinforce their position concerning our members, their conditions and their output. we, we advocate training for our members, encouraging bosses to offer them more. we too need to challenge this and update our own training facilities for our activists. it's time to turn the tables on the management. the g m b and the trade union generally need to have at least the resources the management have. how can we do this i hear you say. firstly, the primary objective for us as a trade union must to be ensure g m b activists, shop stewards and officials all have access to training and computer literacy. and adequate software must be made available to ensure g m b activists can put into practice what they've been taught and use it to the labour movement's advantage. with the right sort of software package a world of information can be at the fingertips of the g m b activists involved. obviously, in the initial stages not all activists would have access to terminals, but most will. in national negotiations, officers should make a priority of the need for terminals for our key activists under facilities agreements, possibly under machinery for negotiation. software, could be designed in such a way that it can be exchanged and regularly updated including information on subjects such as c o s h h, labour law and industrial relations and social groupings within the g m b structure. what i'd also like to say is i think it's e ecol erm, ecologically correct as well for us to move into computer literacy and computer designed programs. i mean, the am amount of paper pushing we do in the g m b is incredible. coming onto the second part of this motion, language training. this is another area that looks to our future. with the present developments in european works councils across national borders, we should be learning other languages. we will meet more trade unionists from other countries in the future and as keith was saying early on, our link up with german trade unions is very favourable, it's a very positive step. however, will we follow the traditional british concept and ignore other languages being disrespectful at other nation's cultures and backgrounds? we need to set an example as well, at this present time m s f are already in a position where they're training their activists in other languages. what we need to do is get our members and make them feel that they're part of europe, not dispossessed by it, at this moment in the time there's not a lot for them in consideration of europe. we need to try and make sure from the grass roots level up, we have involvement. to coin a phrase by john , i live in a very small house said confucius, but my windows look out on a very large world. and that's what the g m b need to do, to grasp the nettle to move forward. both these concepts, computer literacy and language training are ways of attacking present pessimism and mobilizing the will within our movement. support these motions for a better future, arming our grass roots has never been more important. i move these motions. is there a seconder, formally seconded? pardon. yes, formally seconded. no, no, seconded. why don't you want to formally second it? you're just deliberately being awkward all the time. can't win 'em all. mr president, congress, steven , brussels branch, southern region. seconding motion two four four. many delegates have talked about europe this week, about the e c, about the directors' laws and regulations come out of it. one general line of agreement between all delegates is that we need to develop our links in europe. we're in europe, our role in europe can only increase. what we should be looking at is how to maximum our potential to further the trade union interests in the process of european integration, because one thing's for sure. if the evolution of the e c continues, and it will, working people must be as organized as possible to ensure that trade unions are not forgotten in the race for a single market. so how do we get organized? we must continue to forge links with sister unions right across the e c, and what better ways to target our priorities in this area, by targeting the languages, training in the union. especially for young members. this union aims at increasing the skills of its members with various training and education schemes. let's look at how we can get tr language training incorporated into these schemes to give, particularly our young members, an additional skill to use in their trade union work. we must work together in europe, colleagues. we must work with trade unionists of different nationalities and language groups to make sure that european movement is united and speaks with one voice. the british do not have the best reputation for language skills, in fact, we probably have the worst. let's be progressive enough to show our commitment to sister unions in other european countries by giving our members the language tools needed for the european trade union movement. i second the motion. please support. two four five? mel , lancashire region, moving motion two four five. president, conference. the withdrawal of public funding for trade union training is yet another attack on the trade union movement within this country. in particular, an attack on this very union, the g m b. i say in particular our union because everyone here knows we probably have the largest and best training programme of any other union in britain today. but there is a cost to that training, a large cost, and to some extent the allocation of public funding money offsets that cost. as i understand it, nearly a hundred and fifty thousand pound is allocated each year to the g m b. as that money disappears it will inevitably put more of a burden on the union. we need to ensure that we take the opportunity to look hard enough at the decisions which are to b er, to be made, to reassess how our training is to be provided. we've got a number of motions on the agenda asking for the c e c to look carefully at the cost of training at the national college and at the regional education courses. we had a motion which was put before conference last year and it was carried and it was asking for a similar review to what's being asked for this morning. the cost of training should be very carefully considered. in that review which is being sought in the motion we need to think strategically, not just about our own provision, but to ensure that a large scale t u c provision is maintained. the t u c courses that are equally under threat, as pum public funding is withdrawn from them. the reality is the t u c provides training for more g m b representatives than does our own training programme and very often at considerably less, less cost, and certainly in my region, where we have a very close relationship with the t u, t u c, the training is of a very high standard. we must ensure that the t u c tr er, programme remains, otherwise the cost to our union funds will be astronomic. therefore, we've got to review the training programme. we've got to grasp the nettle. yes, there's going to be pain, but it's our future, what is at stake, when we talk about the education training of the activists within this organization. i call for, therefore for the c e c to bring back to conference next year, a full report on how training should be given to the education and maintaining the activists of this union. next year at conference. thank you. thanks mel. formally seconded? formally seconded, thank you. motion two four six, education, birmingham region. john , birmingham region, moving motion number two four six. president, comrades. in nineteen eighty nine, mrs margaret thatcher said, i do not see why we should pay for the education of conflict. and for once in her misbegotten life she was right. because trade union education is conflict based. it's based on the fight for better working conditions, it's based on the fight for health and safety and it's based on the fight for fair laws. what mrs thatcher and those who followed her did not say, was that it would be tory party policy to cause conflict, in their unremitting attack upon our movement. examples of their prejudice are contained within the anti-trade union legislation passed and the shame of the treatment meted out to our brothers and sisters, in such places as dover, g c h q, timex, local government and the present piecemeal destruction of our national health service and the attendant deaths that go with it. you look round, you can see the results of this misery that they have caused on any housing estate in the country, in the eyes of our youngsters condemned to a life on the dole. to our men and women chucked on the redundancy scrap heap. yes, mrs thatcher spoke the truth all right, but it was her truth, not ours. in nineteen seventy nine the grant for trade union education stood at one point six million. that may seem a lot of money. but not when you put it into context with the vast sums of money spent supporting privatization, or the salaries of over privileged, so called captains of industries, industries that once belonged to this nation. the grant has not improved in any real sense to today's figure of one point seven win wrong one point seven five million and now it's the government's intent to reduce the grant by stages until nineteen seventy, nineteen ninety seven it will be removed completely. this is the continuance of thatcher's truth, passed on by major and his gang of incompetents. it is the attempted destruction of our ability to educate each other. why should they be interested in our education? it's simple. the first line of defence for the trade union movement is you. you're the ones who defend the grievances and the disciplines, you're the ones who prepare the information for the industrial tribunals and there's no doubt about it, comrades, this one is aimed at you, the representatives. if your ability to gain the skills and information needed to combat the many complex issues that you have to deal with is impaired, then the government and employers will have what they want. a workforce kept in ignorance and unable to organize. this is the goal of the government's plan. you'll not hear from them about the confusion methods used to present figures on profits or unemployment. you will not hear about the inequality shown to our women, nor will they tell you about the workers killed by unsafe standards. you will not see government courses on combat and crisis management. no, comrades, the only place you'll receive such training is with our union. no wonder they choose to attack it. this motion is about recognizing what they're up to and also the valuable service offered to stewards and members through our regional and national education courses. it's also about the advancement of your personal skills. many of you who come to this rostrum this week will have been trained in the democracy of congress before you got here. our training is the best that any union can offer. it's the training of equality, the training of research and a measured approach could you wind up now please. right, president, and a measured approach to responsibilities and trust that is placed in you. i call upon you to maintain and improve that standard, to ensure that this government does not succeed in its attempt to deny working people the most valuable asset they can attain, knowledge. and with knowledge the result of fight for fair treatment for all workers. okay president colleagues, thanks very much indeed . thanks a lot. i move. thanks very much. two four six seconded formally? formally seconded, thank you. motion two four seven, lancashire to move. john , lancashire region, moving motion two four seven er, the one you've all been waiting to support. congress, colleagues, i wanna begin by stressing that this motion is not about reducing the level of training the g m b offers its members. what it is about is using our members' money to benefit the people who represent them by moving the responsibility of training from national to regional level. that in, in turn will allow the c e c to dispose of the national college and in the process it should ensure this future is safe. we have real difficulties getting financial information regarding the national college. you will be aware that the national college warrants a whole page in the general secretary's report. from that page eight, we can gleam the fact that seven, seventeen hundred stewards attended a total of a hundred and twenty four courses in nineteen ninety two. that is less than fourteen students a course. also, a total of thirteen thousand, three hundred and fifty three delegates used it as a conference centre. in the mid eighties we invested our members money in a national education centre, and now ten years later it's become a conference centre and a hotel and we're not fully booked, can be used for training the stewards, along with the occasional regional council meeting for the lancashire region. can i make a point to ya. normally, or sometimes rather, we use the college for our regional council and i, i think on the last meeting we were discussing, the regional council members were discussing, the er, the amalgamation. and we were, how we were gonna combat it, and in the very next room were or rather holding a conference on how to do us in. but, in our own college. congress, the g m b is renowned for its ability to represent people. trust house forte is equally famous for providing conference centres. colleagues, the membership is going down, the contributions are going up, the education grant will be history by nineteen ninety six. the national college has now become a financial liability that this union can no longer justify. regional training is the answer, where stewards will receive training based on the need of the industries they are employed in. this motion is not seeking to score points off anybody. what it is doing is hoping that the college, our union's future will be secure. support the motion. two four seven formally seconded? formally seconded, not formally seconded, steve. i read no prejudice cos i'm not allowed to so. steve , lancashire region. i'm at the rostrum this morning, supposedly seconding motion two four seven. the lancashire region, as the last speaker said, has tried through the proper channels to seek full financial information on the cost of running the college, and its finan financial burden on the union. it soon became apparent the way we were being footed about, we would have more chance of convincing rupert murdoch to stand as a member of parliament for the labour party. so, what's the reluctance to publicize the information we want? all we have in the general secretary's report is one page. if you miss it it's on page eight. yes, it tells us six hundred and forty seven thousand pound was raised to offset the g m b cost of retaining the college. the operative word being offset. what we wanted to know was how much does offset come to? in simple terms, what does it cost the union to keep the college open? if it's a great financial burden as we believe it is, that money, along with the money generated from the sale of the college, we will be better used spent on setting up regional ar educational system. now i know this may cause a terrible dilemma for alec and bet gilroy from, the proprietors of the rovers return, and you may well ask me, what's that got to do with this motion? for those of you that didn't know, several scenes of the national college are actually displayed in coronation street, so now at least you've got some useful information this week. now, i've gotta tell ya, that in itself is enough for me to say close it, anything that's related to co coronation street. personally, forget as i say, i say it's enough for me. but seriously, i follow this report along with the lancashire region, the comments made by the mover of this motion and in the interests of financial commonsense, i urge the conference to support this motion. thank you very much. you're speaking in opposition bert, are ya? well, come to the rostrum, i just wish to make a point first. now colleagues, after the s o c report this morning, i indicated that we had a lot of business to complete, today and tomorrow. now, most delegates so far this morning, have in fact cooperated with that. but we can't have a situation where people are picking and choosing, because everybody'll want to do it. now, i know colleagues some would like to stay till sunday, or maybe even monday next week, but we're not in that situation, so i again, i do appeal to all colleagues, all colleagues, you know, to assist in formally seconding, and to thank those that have done it so far. bert. yeah. bert , the fulham one branch, london region. erm, speaking in opposition to the motion to shut down the college. mike in the audience and he'll probably give me a rollicking afterwards, cos i haven't prepared anything about this and i suspect i won't be able to speak till the red light. the college is not is not an ideal site for education. the architect of the college built the hotel, a bar and stuck a couple of classrooms on the end. not withstanding that, i think it plays an extremely valuable role in the education and the training of our activists. it should not be looked upon as a cost, as a burden, but as an investment for our continuing prosperity in the trade union movement and more specifically the g m b. people like myself, wouldn't have had the bottle, wouldn't have dreamed of coming up here if it hadn't been for the good work of people like mike and harry , who in my opinion do a superb job in training me, you, all of us in this union. uniquely within the trade union movement, the g m b has a centre of excellence in manchester, because that's what it is. as i mentioned those tutors are possibly unrivalled in the world of trade union education. of course we should try and cut costs. people like me in the past used to rail that we had commercial enterprises using the college. i'll accept that, if we can nick some money from the private sector to educate our activists, so be it. naturally, i understand the balance of, the balance has got to be kept right and we shouldn't sacrifice the training of our activists to get more revenue in by renting it out to commercial firms, unison, i don't know, the pet food retailers' association or whatever. it's got to be kept in perspective. but i've just briefly looked at the education and training part of the general secretary report and it says here, national college rammed a hundred and twenty four courses over a thirty week period attracting approximately seventeen hundred g m b representatives, a wide range of residential courses. well, that's not bad is it for starters? and there's something else you should bear in mind as well. i do understand the need for regional education because clearly it's less expensive, but it's not just what you learn in that classroom at national college and any of, anybody who've been there will know that. you learn just as much in the corridors, in the bars, in the grounds, talking to your colleagues, fuelling each other 's enthusiasm and i certainly, every time i go to that college, i come back home full of renewed hope, fire and passion. oppose this motion. two four nine, birmingham. president, congress. cliff er, birmingham and west midlands region, moving motion two four nine. this is addressed to an area which we seem to miss in our training. some four and a half years ago when i was elected as a branch secretary of a fairly substantial branch in the birmingham region, i had two hours with the then finance officer and he said, well it didn't last the two hours, and he said er, well you know all there is to know now, about how to run this branch. if you've got any problems have a look and see what people have done before, but if you make any mistakes, we'll write and tell you what you've done wrong. i haven't had a lot of letters from regional office, i've had one or two. er, i know i've made some mistakes which they've missed and i've managed to put those right as i went on. it is difficult, especially with larger branches who still retain some considerable cash collection, i turn over somewhere in the region of eight thousand pounds a year, which isn't bad in, in this day and age. i've got to advise auditors er, how they can do their job, i've gotta advise people of the correct forms, the correct er, way of going about things and what benefits there are available. a lot of the benefits, yes we know about. but there are things that we're not avail er, we're not aware of and i'm looked on as something of an expert, so god help those people who come and ask me er, what there is, what forms they should use and what is available on the, in the organization, if i'm looked upon as an expert. what i want to, for you to do, is to pass this and for the c e c to look at providing some education specifically to the administration and the running of branches. let's become professional at branch level, because at branch level is where we carry the administration of this organization. i move. motion two four nine formally seconded? thank you very much. i call paul to put the c e c position. a jogging paul . erm paul , london region er, putting the response from the c e c. can i first very quickly er, congratulate sue and eddie on behalf of the london region. we understand they're about to or shortly become grandparents. erm, well done er, the only thing that eddie now needs is hughie 's elocution pack and all his christmases will have come at once. erm, congress c e c has asked you to accept motion two four four with the qualification, support motions two four five, two four six and two four eight and accept motion two four nine also with the qualification. we are seeking the withdrawal of motion two four seven. motion two four four deals with the fundamental issues of new technology and developments towards greater union cooperation in europe. the issue of technology training is currently under review and the g m b, w e a partnership in establishing the labour telematics training centre at national college for a pilot project lasting twelve months is proof of how seriously we take this subject. frank , an initial training project er, language training project in support of the g m b initiatives is shortly to start at national college. we really need a bit of time to evaluate that and that's the qualification that we're putting on that. the idea of financial and administrative training in motion two four nine is a good one. however, it would be virtually impossible to force that onto people, on the branch officers and we recommend acceptance again with that qualification. just er, slightly deviating, i come to motion two four seven, which asks the c e c to dispose of the national college. we recognize, all of us i'm sure, that during periods of tight, financial stringency most sectional activity is beyond examination and inspe inspection as mel who moved two four five requested. but you know erm, the training committee's view that national college has already achieved savings and approved efficiency while mainin maintaining standards, and the huge number, over seven thousand g m b members participating in some form of activity at a national college last year. the college provides a national vocal point for the g m b and to both national and international vis visitors, symbolizing the best of this organization stands for. i think, that the movers of two four seven did not create, or seek to create an intention of concern, but you know there's something else that many speakers have done this week when they've come to this rostrum. they've talked about the way that employers, that employers treat workers, and do you know what that resolution does, because it's printed in the preliminary agenda and i make no apologies for saying this. printed in the preliminary agenda and the staff who work diligently on your behalf all the year round, see a resolution like that on the conference floor, about whether or not they're gonna have a job at the end of this week it's not the best way to do business. i don't believe john, that that was the intent of the resolution, i'm certain of that, that is the effect and i think in the interests of everybody, i'd ask you on behalf of the c e c to withdraw that motion. if you won't, i hope you, if you won't, then i'll ask congress to oppose. thank you very much president. colleagues, i put the motions to the vote. first one's motion two four four. that's being accepted. all those in favour? against? that's carried. motion two four five is being accepted. all those in favour? against? that's carried. motion two four six is being accepted. all those in favour? against? that's carried. motion two four seven, john, you're being asked to withdraw. right. c e c are therefore asking you to oppose the motion. all those in favour of the motion? against? that's lost. motion two four nine is being accepted. all those in favour? against? that's carried. thanks very much indeed colleagues. colleagues, we now come to part of our agenda that's extremely pleasant. as i mentioned to you on sunday morning we usually deal with, usually deal with this particular matter on sunday morning, but we decided that because our new young members' section is growing in its influence and activity and, of course, we now have resolutions on the agenda that this now warranted er, separate attention er, on the agenda. and i refer, of course, to the g m b youth award. and of course, if this union and the trade union movement is to prosper then we must encourage our young people to come through. to come through, to become conveners, branch secretaries, yes regional secretaries and occasionally general secretaries of the union, and we need more women. so i'm particularly pleased this morning that the award is going to a young woman and i'm equally more pleased that it's going to a young woman from the lancashire region. and i'm more pleased that it's going to a young member in the textiles section because that's a very difficult section. we all know textiles has had the grind for years and years and years and all our activity, all our activists, the shop stewards and the branch secretaries and conveners in that particular section, they need a lot of support, especially the young people. and in this connection, the award this year goes to catherine who already has got a fairly formidable pedigree in the movement, shop steward, member of a branch committee, trades council, young members' advisory committee, the national committee but i think best thing so far, she's actually chaired the t u c young members' conference and that's an achievement for this union as well. so, i hope she goes places, i really do because young members and young trade unionists in this union are gonna get this union's support so, go back to your branches and tell everybody that. we want 'em to come through. colleagues, it's my pleasure to make the award to catherine on behalf of your, your union. thank you. er, i'd like to say thanks to me branch for nominating me up first place for this award. i'd also like to say special thanks to me regional secretary, ernie and also regional president, mel . er, special thanks also to neil for all support and encouragement that he's given me. i'd like to say that i do sit on t u c youth forum and the g m b have the strongest, most active youth section so let's keep it that way and give our young members all the support and encouragement they deserve. i would just like again to say special thanks to ernie, mel and neil for all their support and i hope they're gonna be first in bar to buy me a drink. okay, now in this connection colleagues, the deputy general secretary's report, pages one o eight, one o nine, one one o, one one one, one one two and one one three, and i call composite motion number nine, unemployment of young people, southern region. congress, mr president, steven , brussels branch, southern region. congress, there's a very familiar phrase which is often used in the english language, a phrase which many of you may have used yourselves from time to time. youngsters today, it is said, have never had it so good. you've all heard it and many of you may still believe it. but what young members, what young people find ironic, is that the same people who are telling them they've never had it so good, in the same breath accuse them of being responsible for high community crime levels, drug and alcohol abuse and the violence. but the funny thing which strikes many young people is that they are being made scapegoats, then it is certainly not because they've had it so good. one million of them are under twenty five years of age, a disproportionately high number, you'll agree. this figure is a national disgrace and reflects totally the continued failure of this government to invest in high quality education and training for young people. despite all the fine statements that young people are the future of the country, they are still a disadvantaged group and will remain so until they are made a priority policy target. one million youngsters unemployed, colleagues, what a waste of human talent and energy, what a waste of a vital community resource. and imagine the demoralizing effect that this is having on them. young people three, four years out of college and have never had a job. is there any wonder that their attention and energies are diverted to elsewhere. but for those who do have a job, it's hardly plain sailing. cheap labour, low pay and conditions er, poor conditions are all characteristics of the young person at work. they are discriminated against because of their age. we can all think of spec specific cases, i will describe just one. jim left school at sixteen, joined a y t s scheme, years ago, with an electrics company. he was on the scheme for a year and then stayed as a trainee earning thirty pounds a week. he stuck this out for three years and finally qualified as an electrician in his own right. the same firm immediately sacked him, because they would have to increase his wages and he's never had a proper job since. just one example of how vulnerable the young person is in the workplace. we can all think of other examples. colleagues, young people need the special and particular protection of the unions. they must be a priority target group, so we can prevent exploitation and discrimination and provide them with adequate training in health and safety and other matters. in this context the campaign for a minimum wage has never been more urgent. but this union does have a good track record in campaigning for young people. the young members section has come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years. young members have this excellent magazine, issue, which you'll find in front of you this morning. it is the only union youth magazine which exists in the u k and it specifically addresses young people's problems, fears and hopes. my only criticism is that it doesn't come out often enough. we need more issues of issue, mr president. but let's look at how we can increase young peop members' participation in this union, at how we can address the problem of recruiting young people. fourteen years of tory government have taken their toll on the impression, on young people's impression of trade unions. these impressions are more likely to be negative than positive, or even neutral. never forget colleagues, that there are thousands and thousands of young people in our society who are frustrated, disappointed, angry and in desperate need of union protection. they are the future of the g m b, let's get them in and let's keep them in. i move. comp nine formally seconded? formally seconded? thanks very much. motion two four eight. youth g m b scotland to move. , g m b scotland, moving motion two four eight. president, congress. we must recognize the need to encourage a youth of the g m b to participate more fully within the union. the g m b is now the leading union in youth affairs. recruitment of the young into the g m b is essential, as youth represents the future of this country as well as the future of the union. however, the reality for young people whom we represent in the nineteen nineties is that they face the prospects of having to survive in a declining british economy. youth unemployment is now a serious problem in britain and many under the age of twenty five have never had a real, permanent job. according to a labour par a labour party survey based on information from scotland's job centres, eighteen to twenty few twenty four year old out of work has risen by twenty eight percent since nineteen ninety. many youngsters have never known the satisfaction of being handed a wage packet and it can be so soul destroying for them. the feeling of helplessness must be so overpowering as young one, as one young man told me, we are the forgotten ones. this government is doing nothing to give them hope and their pride back. the g m b is a legal union in youth affairs. we have appointed a national youth officer and we have been there leading the way, ensuring that young people have a voice in britain's second largest union. every region round the country now has a regional advisory youth committee and nearly all has an annual youth conference. more training of young members should be provided as well as distribution of literature aimed at young people. we must encourage a youth to become shop stewards and safety representatives. we must ensure that black and ethnic minorities are represented in our youth section and those with disabilities who are very often forgotten about. the youth represents the future of our country and our union. educate them early of the benefits of being in a trade union. we would also benefit from their outlook and their fresh ideas. the young will encourage their friends and workmates, not only increasing the membership but mating, making our union stronger. i move. two four eight formally seconded? formally seconded, thank you. motion four three four, northern region to move. president, congress. sean , northern region, moving motion four three four. congress, any delegate who lives in a university town or who has a son or daughter at college can testify to the special promotions that all banks offer to students. some banks, colleagues, offer twenty five pound when the student first opens an account. some offer a free filofax, and others offer book tokens or record vouchers. banks offer such goodies, not because students are rich and represent good business to the banks, not colleagues, because out of the goodness of their hearts they believe students need a helping hand. no, all of britain's high street banks offer special rates and free gifts to students because they know that those in training and attending college are a, are the prospective workforce of tomorrow. they also know that once a person joins a bank, in most cases, they do so for life. in short, colleagues, it's an investment. motion four three four, congress, calls upon the c e c to adopt the same attitudes as the banks. not to give freebies but to invest in the workers of the future. after all colleagues, general booth, the founder of the salvation army said, why should the devil have all the best tunes? congress, i urge you to support motion four three four. four three four formally seconded? thanks very much. c e c are seeking reference for four three four and i call paul . paul , southern region, speaking on behalf of the c e c. president, congress. the c e c is asking you to support composite nine, motion two four eight and refer motion four three four. composite nine is about putting young people back to work and that has to be a priority in a year which has seen youth unemployment hit the one million mark. our own young members' section earlier this year, highlighted the plight of those hundreds of thousands of sixteen year olds, who started nineteen ninety three without a job. this summer there'll be trying by thousands more as they come out of school and straight into obscurity. victims of the government's youth training guarantee. the unset seen scandal of major's britain, a hundred and twenty thousand, sixteen to twenty four year olds, not on the register, not in a job, no scheme to join and no benefit available. a recent survey found one in six young people, including some of school age, earning less than one pound an hour. what sort of employers are there out there, that exploiting these young people? it's a disgrace and we should campaign and find out where these employers are and publicly put 'em to shame. what a way to treat young people. what a way to run an economy. before starting the formal business, i would ask members to stand in silence as a tribute to the former lord mayor, the late councillor move to the election of lord mayor. have i a nomination for the office of lord mayor for the year? thank you very much. is that seconded? yes er chairman i i formally second that. thank you very much councillor councillor i understand you have waived your right to speak to the nomination in favour of councillor . councillor would you please like to s gives me pleasure to be involved in the nomination for the office of lord april 1992 for s councillor . it has been my pleasure and privilege to have known since 1967 when he made me a member of the labour party. since that time i have come to know him and his wife and i can vouch that together they will be first class first citizens of and the office of the lord mayorality will continue to be respected and dignified and enhanced by their terms of office. before i reveal to the distinguished company gathered here this morning some of councillor good works, i feel it incumbent upon me and appropriate to pay tribute to councillor , our lord mayor, who died in office in april and i offer my sincere condolences to mrs from my party and the council. councillor has lived and worked all his life in with the exception of his war service in the army which was spent in the south of england, of which i will make mention later. , i am told, did not come into politics, he was born into politics and i understand that his parents were strong and prominent members of the independent labour party and the labour party. and i share some common history, for in our early adult life, both of us have held high office in the anglican church. we have both held the office of head server, he at and i at and both of us remain members of the anglican church. the word commitment is extremely important because whatever has happened, and goodness knows what will happen in politics, commitment to the labour party and loyalty to the council will remain. the essential driving force is always difficult to define but the one thing that has struck me about is his intolerance of injustice wherever it presents itself. i make this point because i am sure that during his year of office he will continue his fight against injustice and let officers of the council and the labour group be aware. has held just about every office it is possible to hold in the labour party. he has been prominent, not only in ward organisation but also in constituency party organisation. my recollections of will always be around that of treasurer. the labour party has always been solvent whenever and wherever he was in office. in fact, when i joined the party in 1967, i was charged six shillings for my annual subscription. the following year i was refunded three and ninepence by his successor because i had been over-charged. there are a considerable number of labour party members sitting in this council chamber who have given a greater financial contribution than they ever expected to make because was treasurer. he was prominent in the co-operative movement and party over many years, during which he held various offices. he worked in the private sector of industry in the w d in the wool industry for many years when wool was the staple industry of . later he came to work at the house which was his first entry into local government. from here he entered n a l g o and held high office within the union and many members have to thank for representing them at pay s pay negotiations etcetera. he was a founder members of the n a l g o sports and social club, along with councillor,s sorry, along with former councillor . there was always political sparring around the bar when these two people were present and i am told that not many rounds were bought, but many rounds were fought. in 1981, the same year as retired from working life, he was elected to metropolitan county council, eventually becoming chair of the prestigious personnel committee. of course, these were difficult years and the life of his term of office on the county council was extended by one year by the government because of , because abolition was imminent. so 1986 was elected a member of the council for ward. at the first meeting of the labour group he was elected secretary, a position which he has held until today. has always involved himself with the community and it was during his first term of office here that one of our cherished hopes came to fruition, a community centre for , called the village hall. meanwhile, over at , also in the ward, there was a new replacement building for community association which, incidentally, under his chairmanship, goes from strength to strength. serving on the housing committee and then on the social services and strategic housing committee, and back to the housing committee, has devoted his work to this area of council activity. vice chair, i have given the council, i believe, many good reasons for electing to the office of lord mayor for this year. but i promised earlier in my speech that i would mention service in the royal artillery during the second world war where he rose to the rank of sergeant. he was put in charge of a huge gun protecting the south coast of england from any invasion. this gun was in fact called his majesty's gun blastbuster and it required a contingent of a hundred troops to operate it. the idea was that, when the right moment came, the gun would be transported over the sea to assist with the allied invasion of germany. however, the cost of the efficiency of the royal engineers in blowing up bridges, the gun never left these shores because most of the bridges was not strong enough to withstand it. was disappointed but pleased that the war was coming to an end. essentially is a man of peace, even if he doesn't always give that appearance. can tell many stories about this gun and recently, when another gun er was being assembled for transporting to another country, was able to explain with the aid of a photograph that such guns have existed and this received publicity in the telegraph and argus. forty two years ago was married to . i haven't said anything yet about . she too, has many accomplishments, worked for many years in the rating and valuation office, now the district valuer's office. is an amazingly calm person and by her intuitive skills can bring peace to h to heated situations, an exceptionally useful gift when married to a politician. she will make an excellent lady mayoress and will keep calm through the more turbulent moments of being chair of this council. there is nothing more to say except i hope that their year of office will be filled with happiness and wish them well with all their endeavours on behalf of council. councillor , do you wish to speak? yes, thank you very much er er, on the first day that i joined this council which was the first day that you joined er councillor . ah but unlike me, him, i was a raw recruit whilst he had experienced county council and he had worked on both sides of the council chamber as a as a government officer, i believe, and er county councillor. but i was a commanded to go to a seminar. now seminar in point of fact was new to my vocabulary and i had ideas of it being some sematic ritual with a small operation at the end of it. in fact, it wasn't. ah, thank you very much, yes. now, shortly will be donning the mantle of a very demanding office and i'm sure er that you will fulfil that office with dignity and respect ah and i wish you, on behalf of the group, a very very happy and successful year to both you and your good lady. now, you did once tell me, very very recently in fact, that you were the the father of this council s with rather a contradiction in fact was that because i've seen you trotting around the corridors of this er this council and it you're more like the baby of the council than er than the father, but i i do bow to your superior knowledge of councilling. so with that er honourable guests, vice chairman, councillors, ah i wish you on behalf of the conservative group, a happy full and successful year of o office. thank you very much vice chairman. does any other member wish to speak or put councillor . yes,, i've never heard the er the full title before, it's always just been er so i was so as far as i've always heard it. er, councillor said how long he he's known er er and i think he said he also got him into the the labour party on the first meeting on their early meeting. my first meeting with was e a i doubt whether he actually remembers er but it was actually on an inter city, i don't know whether he does remember, on an inter city back from london erm three or four years ago when h he also tried to get me to join the labour party if i remember rightly. one thing that can be said about is that he he's never drab. erm, local government and local council work is often seen as being very drab and indeed we all know that it's becoming probably less exciting nowadays with the constraints that there are and what councils still require er in abundance are characters, people who bring a bit of excitement to council affairs w i at whatever level and i think that one thing that has is character, sadly missing in so many younger politicians i must say. so it's a pleasure really, i think it's true, i think there are very many people who undermine and er undervalue the contribution made by people who have been in politics for a long time and i think what they also forget is the level of commitment that these people have put in over many many years. it's very easy for young people to come into politics, full of enthusiasm and full up of get up get up and go and many of them get up and go after a few years. so i take my hat off to any person from any party who is involved in political life for such a long time because it's an effort and it requires a sacrifice er not only to the but also to careers and perhaps, most important of all, to family life. so i take my hat off to . i wish him a a successful year, a happy year and a busy year and i'm sure that he will be a credit to all of us on the council. thank you. does any other member wish to speak? all those in favour of councillor please show. i declare councillor duly elected lord mayor. i,, having been elected to the office of lord mayor, declare that i take thi that office upon myself and will duly and faithfully fulfil the duties of it according to the best of my judgement and ability. i undertake to be guided by the national code of local government conduct in the performance of my functions in that office have i a nomination for the office of vice chair of council? i'd like to nominate the present vice chair, as the vice chair for the coming year. have i a second? are there any other nominations? that being so, all those in favour of the nomination of councillor please show . there is obviously a clear majority. i declare councillor duly appointed vice chair of council. i,,be having been elected to the office of vice chair, declare that i take that office upon myself and will duly and faithfully fulfil the duties of it according to the best of my judgement and ability. i undertake to be guided by the national code of local government conduct in the performance of any functions in that office will you please be upstanding whilst the lord mayor departs from the council chamber? honourary freeman, members of parliament, members of council, distinguished guests, reverend sirs, ladies and gentlemen. i would like to thank councillor , councillor , councillor er councillor for the kind things that have been said about me in proposing my nomination as lord mayor. i didn't recognise myself, to be honest, er i anticipated all sorts of revelations to b have been made but er they didn't appear. however, i must tell you, yes i am i do and have been treasurer of various organisations. i am a treasurer who likes to keep hold of the money, i like to receive it, i don't like to give it out. it reminds me of the words of robbie burns, oh would the gods the gift to gi us, to see ourselves as others see us. my wife and i are very conscious of the very high honour that you have bestowed upon us and i must also thank my party for proposing, and you all for electing, me to the office of lord mayor for the metropolitan city of . this is an unusual and sad occasion because the man we elected as lord mayor twelve months ago is no longer with us. but one thing is very clear, that councillor will go down in the history of this city as one of it's most outstanding sons, who endeared himself to people in all walks of life. he graced his office with dignity and performed his duties with such excellence that i know i may have difficulty in walking in his footsteps. he was lucky to have the support of his family, but above all, in having as his lady mayoress a wife who showed him such love and devotion, in sickness and in health. no-one could have tended and him night and day in his illness as she did. , you are with us today and i assure you that all members of of council join me in conveying our love, affection and good wishes to you. however, i must com comment on the way that since christmas the vice chair of council has undertaken the many civic duties he has been called upon to perform, assisted by his wife . while some of us have sought to help, the real weight of responsibility has fallen on his shoulders and those of his wife and i'm sure all members of council will join with me in saying a very real thank you to them both. now comment was made during the er nominations to this office. i can never understand quite why the press are so keen to know somebody's age, it doesn't matter what you do, what you are, but they want to know how old you are. well, as councillor told you, i am the father of the council. if i live, and i certainly am intending doing, until the twenty seventh of august of this year, i shall have reached the ripe old age of seventy five. well done i'm always willing to stand down if somebody can claim to be a little older. i know that the new members of council have been welcomed into our midst and it must be along time since there've been so many changes. remarkable that out of thirty people elected last may, fifteen of them are new to this council, a staggering seventeen percent of the council if you do it statistically. to them i'll say you'll find things are strange for a time but, with the help of your colleagues, you'll soon find your feet but, for yourselves, avoid falling into the bad habits of others. and resolve to take an active part in the in this chamber, but in particular in committee and sub-committees where the real work takes place. it's only a few days since i was sitting in the seats you all occupy, realising the difficult job that a lord mayor has to undertake in keeping members in order. now it's my turn to perform that task and i am sure you are all going to turn over a new leaf and make things easy for me. i hope so. er, but rest assured, councillor , i'm no easy pushover and we'll deal with any who stray from the path. during last year there were a number of occasions on which members made personal verbal attacks on other members. i give due warning that this behaviour will not be tolerated and i will protect members from any unwarranted abuse. i intend, during my year of office, to get out and meet the people. in particular, i would like to try to visit as many schools as possible. equally, i would encourage schools to send contingents of youngsters to this city hall. i want the city hall to stop being a drab place but to ring to the laughter and joy of young people, so let let's change the image that we are creating. for the people of this city like to meet and greet the lord mayor and the lady mayoress, we will strive to meet as many people in all walks of life as possible. during the past year, a difficult year, we have seen the beginnings of change taking place. whilst the country is still in a continuing and worsening economic depression, and while unemployment rises daily, we must be prepared to meet the challenge, must not miss the opportunities that undoubtedly will come our way. the development is about to take off, there is a promise of the electrification of the rail network link with , progress on the trunk road is now a firm promise and it's likely that we shall have er er the trolley buses running in after very many years. is it too much to ask that interest rates hopefully continue to fall at the f elected on the second of may and wish them an enjoyable and fruitful term of office. as they call out the names of the new members, i would like them to stand so they can all recognise and welcome them. councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor councillor and councillor members will be aware be careful. members will be aware that ex-councillors and were unsuccessful at the polls and i wish to ask the council to place on record its thanks to their contribution to the work of this council made by those members and to wish them well in the future. hear hear er, inspection of internal documents. are there any to report. there are no er no restricted documents, lord mayor. i call upon councillor to move that the dates of the council meetings for 1991 ninety two be as set out in the council agen genda. i move, lord mayor. seconded? do you wish to speak? all in favour please show. ok. pass. overwhelmingly. move on to standing orders. i call upon councillor to move the adoption of standing orders, including powers and duties, together with amendments fees standing in his name. i move lord mayor and in so doing to say that the controlling group can accept the amendment proposed by the conservative group on standing order c six a. sec seconded my lord mayor. clarification that that's the er just the amendment relating to where you were trying to take away the rights of ward members to attend?as you have taken away the rights of members on questions, comments er and other things which changes the existing circumstances. happy councillor anyway we need you to s to to move your amendment a. seconded? i second that. does councillor , do you wish to say anything further? no lord mayor. alright. therefore i will as ask for those in favour of the substantive motion, including amendment a as moved by councillor . do we? we've got the motions here those in favour do we need oh, i'm sorry. those in favour of amendment a moved by councillor ? we'll do it correct those against? that's lost that's lost lost. thirty three to fifty three. those in favour of the substantive motion please show. that will incorporates that incorporates par c six a p it in it includes the am amendment moved by er the amendment b standing in the name councillor but it equally includes that part of er the amendment c six a. all those in favour please show? i don't know why they aren't voting in favour to be honest those against. well, it's obviously a lot less than fifty three, isn't it? don't be too sure of that councillor . you c can't see behind you, y'know. . no no i can i can call it again if you want to but. i call upon councillor to move the adoption of standing orders for contracts and financial regulations. lord mayor. is there a seconder? do you wish to speak on this matter? no lord mayor. right. those in favour of of the substantive motion please show and those against those against? i'll give ya a chance. oh, you're not voting again. well, it's overwhelming isn't it? i call upon councillor to move the appointment to committees as set out in the sheets circulated round the chamber. councillor ? i move lord mayor seconded, councillor ? all those in favour all those in favour please show well it looks unanimous. i'd say it's a unanimous decision is that. call upon councillor to move the adoption of the cycle of meetings for 1991 ninety two as set out on the council agenda, together with amendment c standing in his name. i move lord mayor seconded? seconded lord mayor er, all in favour? unanimous unanimous. that completes the business of this cou council meeting. thank you very much. can you tell me a little bit about your family? what did your father do for a living? my father was a miner, all his life. well i say all his life er er early, in the early days he was er a groom to a veterinary surgeon in manchester. and er course i i don't know a lot about his early life cos er i was young to remember it. and er what pit was he at? he w er he was in er at underwood. he worked at underwood pit when they were came to this district and then they came into the newthorpe common district and er and then er we moved from newthorpe common and he went to williamthorpe for a short while, only from erm probably eighteen months to two years, that's as much as did there. and er we lived at a village called homewood near heath there, then we moved back from there he moved back to er underwood again. and mother kept a shop, a sweet shop, on eastwood, opposite where they eventually built the eastwood empire. and what did your father do er as a miner, what was his job? he was a butty on the coal face. and what did that entail? that en entailed employing men to get the coal, and er he was responsible for the wages, he was paid by contract the amount of coal that er he produced, his stall produced. you see? and er from that he paid his men a wage and er if there was any left over, that was his. and and and er s and on friday, on that friday mother used to go to eastwood hall to collect the er er the wages that my father had to pay out to the men. and then he'd bring that home, you see? she'd bring that home and er the men would all congregate then round the table at home, and he would pay them out. and sometimes he had to go upstairs to fetch some of his own money to put to it to pay them out. that was before there was a minimum wage. and what sort of wages were they getting? do you know? well i i'd couldn't really swear to anything of that description, but it was it was before the er er old age pensions came out because i remember my grandmother lived with us and er i remember the first week that she drew her five shillings old age pension. when would that be? nineteen eleven? yeah, something like that? was i think, nineteen eleven. er that was at the time of er er king edward the seventh,s it was time of his death wasn't it? i think. er er at at that time too it was er we the the sinking of the titanic. the ship within a ship. i i remember as a kid hearing of all this er how the titanic sank on her maiden voyage, the ship within a ship. yeah. to come back to your family a little bit, erm did you have any brothers or sisters? oh yes. yes there's a i had two brothers and one sisters. and of course the old joke goes like er i got two brothers and each brothers got a sister and i've got a sister. er were they older than you? younger than you were? er no er i was the second eldest. er my eldest brother now is eighty two. i'm eighty. my younger brother is er seventy eight tomorrow and my sister is seventy two. er could you tell me a little bit about the schools you went to? what what school did you first go to? i started school to er bowvale school on dovecote lane at eastwood, when i was two and a half. my brother used to take me. and er i stayed there at that school until nineteen hundred and twelve. and have you got any memories of that school at all, of teachers, what they were like? perhaps? or the lessons you had ? we used to on a monday, when it was wash day, we used to have to take sandwiches for dinner and we used to have to eat it under the shed in the school playground. can always remember that. and er i know er we used to put er i er kind of er bit of er play on once a year, there. and er i got roped into it one year because i had to stop in for something or other that i course i hadn't done but and er i i was pulled in to take a little part in this play er i remember that. what play was that? erm it was about it was about aeroplanes and it was when aeroplanes were in the very early stage. and there was a song i can't quite can't quite remember it now. what the song was that we had to sing on this stage, with it. and i used to go to the methodist chapel that was opposite the school, there. and er i i joined the band of hope there and i signed the pledge . what what was that? what was the band of hope? it was a s er like a sunday school bible class. er and er i say i signed the pledge never to touch intoxicating liquors, which i kept for until i was thirty five. i was thirty five before i ever touched a drop of intoxicating liquor. and erm er have you got any other memories about your school, can you remember any of the teachers? yes erm a the er headmaster at d lim at er at er bellvale schools was then mr . his name was mr . he was a very strict man the headmaster, cos i remember one little incident that i thought was rather harsh. er they used to march us round the playground you see and er i was in the back row and of course the teacher was at the front more or less. and er i was dragging behind a few paces and the headmaster was watching out of his study window you see? and er he called me in, i had the cane for that and i had to tell the mess boy . and what about the kind of lessons you ha you had? what sort of lessons did you have? well we had slates then, i can remember we had slates and er we used to have arithmetic lessons and er history. i can remember those sort of things, what we used to have to do. but er it was only u until i left the school cos i was only a matter of eight when i left that school so er i wasn't in a it wasn't in any progressive sort of style then i mean we wer it was more rudiments of education that we were taught and er what what where did you move to when you moved from that school ? we moved from there to gedling and why was that? we moved dad came to gedling pit. by the way they they sank gedling pit, they cut the first sod the year i was born nineteen oh two. and er little history of that, that was sunk by some irishmen and they reckon they sank the iri they sank that pit without the aid of a plumb-bob. how true it is. a german firm froze the the b the the the the b sandstone there's a er the what do they call it? the bunters the bunters . that was water and the german firm sunk the froze that while they went through it. but coming back, we moved again as i say and it was in the er winter. and it was a terrible winter that winter, there was about a foot of snow on the ground and i remember slayney's moved us with er er a pair of horses and er and er a little removal van. and i can i can vividly remember now coming along nuthall road towards nuthall from kimberley and seeing all the telegraph wires hanging down, pushed down to the floor, broken, with the weight of snow. and that was i it was, as i was saying in early january. er that was in nineteen hundred and twelve, that was. and twelve or eleven, nineteen elev i either eleven or twelve. do you remember your school once you had moved? then i moved from th er i went into er the board school at carlton. opposite the blacks head pub. went in there and a mr , he was the headmaster then, nice chap. but you see i i got a vivid ginger hair, real red, you see? so consequently every time i moved school, moved into different i had to fight me way there for the first week because i hated anyone to call me ginger you see? so. yes. and erm. i didn't stay at that school long before i moved down to erm the er tins school on chandler street. that was a series of tin corrugated iron classrooms, that was, and the first the first teacher i had there was a mr and he got a real fierce face and a fierce tash and he he was a r a right lad he was. and in the he he he'd give you the thrashing if just lifted your fingers up. and we used to there at there at that school every morning we hads to line in the in the playground and he used inspect your hands for cleanliness, and your shoes. your shoes always had to be clean, brushed, you see? but our trouble was that to get to it we had to we had to walk across the recreation ground and there was the river ouse the ouse dyke it was, and w we we couldn't resist the temptation of jumping across this dyke you see? so we were always in trouble for appearing w we got dirty shoes you see? so we evolved a brilliant idea of hiding a brush in an old tree at the end of the dyke so that we could brush the dirt off afore we got there. but that was that was quite a good school, went through there via a mr , he was a very nice teacher, very efficient, and he didn't believe in the cane, he didn't. he er he believed in other punishment lines and that description but er i liked that chap er very nice chap. and that was the headmaster there was mr he was. and from there we moved to the the secondary school that is now at station road at gedling, it was a new school, brand new school built, er purpose built. and er we the tea the class all the boys it were all boys er we we had to carry each carry a chair up to the new school . and erm =ut er th that that was quite a quite a good school, quite a modern school but i i'd er i'd er i wasn't able to stay there long because i was approaching my thirteenth birthday you see than. i did go to night school there to to learn joinery. they used to have a joinery class there. but er i went from there er i er i was thirteen on august the twenty fifth, nineteen fifteen. that's right. and of course we broke up, we broke up on the first of august er for the er month holiday you see? but er i'd er got a job . don't know how i got it when my father got it for me. in the offices at gedling pit, and i started work on august the third. that was three weeks before i was four thirteen then. in the in the time office. and and er and there er i began to learn what the what what things were beginning to happen in the coal fields. from right from the time office er i used to go into blacksmith shop to mash tea because that's where we used to we used to be able to go and take the cam for the timekeeper and i was in the stores too, and er mash the tea in the forge they put the kettle on the forge you see? and i mashed the tea and made it and a fitting shop was there too. er what what what did you actually have to do? when you worked in the time shop? er well i was in the time office in the first place, the men used to er cl check in, they used to bring the checks you see? brass checks, numbered. and i'd got a board with all the numbers on and hooks you see? and as they came along we used to have to hang these checks on the number you see? and then the timekeeper could mark down that they were present, they'd gone to work that day you see? and of course that was the wages book, that was made up out of that. and er and they the the afternoon shift used to come on and i used to have to carry all these checks across then, the yard and take 'em and hang 'em up in the in the check-weigh on the pit top where they weighed the wagons of coals. the the tubs of coal not the wagons. and er i used to have to prepare the er the er timber er orders for the men in the stall down the er er down the pits. the the deputies had prepared er they'd er there'd be a stall say erm n n nineties or like that might be, and the order for them would probably be, twelve four foot props, and twelve bars, you see? that was a timber prop and a timber half a prop for a bar to carry the roof. but my instructions were that what the deputy ordered, and i used to make a book up for the yardmen to prepare these. and my instructions were that i i used to either let them have two thirds of that or a half, you see? t er cutting costs. and what were your wages for that? seven and sixpence a week. that was good, that was what g good money that was. what hours did you do for that? er i used to get there at six o'clock in the morning. six o'clock in the morning till four o'clock in the afternoon. ten hours, yeah. and y you worked how long did you work f at the ti in the time office? in the time office, i worked that till i i were i did about er seven or eight months in there, and from there i went on the screens. were the screen they call 'em. we had to pick the bind out by hand, er the coal was all er sorted on the screens and er er a u u us lads, we used to stand at the side of the belts that were travelling round and tipping the coal into the wagons down below you see? and we used to have to pick the bind out you see? out of the coal as it came by. and er you see you weren't allowed down the pit till you were fourteen. you'd got to be fourteen. of course the temptation er er had got to be er we'd got to earn money erm so er father insisted that down the pit after you're fourteen. as soon as you're fourteen, down the pits you go you see? and er i went into the high hazel seam. which is a four hundred yards and it was an inset, the top hard seam was ninety yards lower down at the four hundred and ninety yards to the and the high hazel used to have an inset. you see the cage used to go down to that and it used to you see?the f the four for you to get off you see? and yeah. get on. pardon me. and er that's how it was when they were running the coal on, tubs of coal onto it. and er another thing that used to happen though, if anything happened to that shaft, you see? er there used to be a a a a an inlet to the other shaft, you see there was an inlet shaft that was all boxed in, that was the top hard that went down four hundred and ninety yards you see? now if anything had been wrong with this shaft we used to have to go to the other shaft and ride that rope you see? but there there was no facilities for running on you see and when when we had to ride that one, the chair would come down to this inset ninety yards you see? but it was about anything like two to three feet away from the side of the and they used to drop a plank down you see? and you had to run along the plank to get on. and there were a ninety yard dr drop but er had it happen it very often of course, but it was rather unnerving when it did happen. and wha what did they pay you for this then? now what was i on? i wer i started on ten shillings a week there, down there, at er fourteen. ten shillings a week that was. and you worked different hours? yeah i worked six till two. six till two that was. and i worked in the pit bottom for a start, for about three or four months, in the pit bottom. you see coal used to come down one incline and the and and it used to knock the empties off, two empties off, you see? and there was catches on the chair and you used to be ab a lad used to stand there and he used to pull a lever and he used to level these catches and the tubs would run off and then as two ran off he'd let it go and it would catch the empties you see then. and one of my jobs was to push these empties round and round the empty tubs? the empty yeah. tubs you see? to go away off up into the workings again. and what was the sort of clothes you had to wear down the pit? did you have any safety well equipment? we we used to have mole skins, mother used to buy mole skins because er they wore very well they did. but er a flannel shirt and mole skins but er er that was while you were in the pit bottom you see? and er you see the air used to come down our shaft. our shaft was open all open, the other shaft was all boxed in and there was a huge fan you see? just below the surface of that shaft and that's that used to draw the air down our shaft, all around the workings, you see? and back up this other shaft, you see? well i went from the pit bottom i went er stake-ganging then. with a horse, i had a horse then, and er there u there used to be er there used to be three or four of us there with horses and we we used to the the the from the coal face there used to be all individual horses bringing odd tubs into a turnout what we called a turner which was a collection of different tubs you see? the full tubs. and then that was a short stint that was, so that one horse, called spring his name was, he was a smasher he was. he used to bring these tubs down into a long turnout. well our stint was a lot longer than his so he could keep three horses going you see? and there was captain and my main horse's name was crudia. i forget what the other one's name was. but er we used to bring these tubs then down from there on to the main road where the rope, the haulage rope travelled you see? and he'd clip them on the clip them on the rope and take 'em to the pit bottom. but er er that was happy days. in your er early days so you remember any accidents down the pit? not er not while i was on this on that job. except that horses used to get killed. we used to i know er old captain he he came down as tubs came onto him and broke his neck and he er er funny part of that it was. one week he he broke the record, he pulled f he brought brought forty tubs down and then the following week he got killed and he'd only got seven on. and did it did you move on from that job? i moved on from that then i was fifteen then, and me dad was he was a butty and er so er i had to go on the face then. cos i was fifteen you see? the coal mines act said that i shouldn't go on the face until i was sixteen but er the war was on. it was er nineteen seventeen you see? and so nobody thought about invoking the coal mines act, you just had to go, and er and i went. and er the old man, they they used to call him the iron man and he was the iron man. and i'll never forget him, the first shift i went on afternoon shift. quarter to three till quarter to ten and er we came out of stall at quarter to ten at night. i'd been loading for him, loading the t coal into tubs and tramming them. and er he was rubbing the coal off his back and was stripped there, we used to be stripped to the waist then. and er he stretched his arms and he said ooh he said my tired's come and i said, er er, ee ee yes i'm afraid mine's come as well, my tired's come. and that i had the nerve and the cheek, the audacity to be tired at fifteen years of age i i it it it wasn't possible. and i thought he'd have flogged me. and what what did you have to do on the pit face then? well you i had to load for h for him you see at first. er he'd get the coal, you see? and er and then i'd load it up into the tubs and tram it out into the gate. and then the horse would come, bring me two or three empty tubs in you see? and take the full tubs out, you see? that's how they used to work it. and how how did he get the coal? hand got, all hand got then. we used to hole you used hole underneath it, lie on your shoulder and er hole underneath the coal and er wedge it off. what sort of tools did you use? we used to have a pick, er er that was a blade that had a slot in it and you had a pick shaft with a box and er a an iron box on the top. and you used to put the pick blade into it and it was a piece cut out of it,th the blade you see? and er then you had a cotter that you drove in underneath it, and it secured the pick because every night, you've got to take those blades out of the pit and have them sharpened, you see? and there used to be a man had a little forge on the top, a chap named , an old man. and you used to pay him i don't know how mush it was a week now. but you used to have to pay him, once a week, for sharpening your blades, you see? you used to with three or four blades, in time what we see. and er er drop them in the in the blacksmith's shop, and then when he'd finished with them, when he'd done 'em, they'd all be in a tub down at the pit bottom. and you'd go and sort your bundle out you see? and carry them in. what other tools did you use, any? hammer and wedge and shovel. hammer and wedge and shovel. and it nev never had any shot firing? oh ye i it all depended if you needed er shot firing. you see coal used to lie in in er er different slines what we called slines white slines and yo you had to get your coal line what we call half and half running in half and half. if it was head on, it was hell's delight to get the coal, you see? if it was flat on it was the same because he's got to go right through to the sline before he could get anything you see? oh we used to hole underneath the coal and er and then er oh oh we used to have a ringer that was a long steel ringer that you could put behind the slines in the slines and lever the coal off you see? with it. there's an art in getting coal. but er aye it was very very much an art. what about things like lighting in the pit, what did you do for lighting? we had oil lamps then, we only had oil lamps, they hadn't invented electric lamps,then. and you i mean you're gonna get you're only about four foot high you see? and you had to carry your lamp in your teeth, you see? and on your belt, when you're walking and you had a a lamp hook, which was got a very sharp spike on it you see, and when you was working er shovelling,you'd stick it in a prop you see? and they'd hang up, you see? erm that's how we used to work that is. and it all depended on where you were, now i remember one time we were working and er both ends were in you won't know what that meant. but you see the we'd got no stall that end open to us and no stall that end, and the gate was down but we working to breakthrough to get some fresh air through from there. and er i remember we used to get the gas then, and er that was at a time they were used have an electric lamp we had had one in the stall, you see? one electric lamp the others all be the the butty would have the electric lamp, and he'd also carry an oil lamp for testing for gas, and er i can remember going nearly a whole shift having to carry this lamp right down on the floor, carry it up into the heading you see? and when you got into any gas, a blue flame used to come on the top of your lamp pop, gone. back you'd go then to the we used to have a a a a machine then, an electric box affair, that used to put your lamp in, it would set your wick at a certain angle that there wo made a spark and when you'd close this up, it caused a spark that would light your wick again you see? and what about was there safter safer ways for testing for gas? for fire damp? only canaries. but we didn't have any canaries. no, they only had them the the er rescue operations, rescue men. did you have any safety equipment? at all? ooh no no no. no we didn't have any safety equipment. now i remember being in one time, with both ends in, like i were talking about, and we haven't got a road out,we matter of fact we were trying to break through to another district. and er the gate end came in, that's where the gate men and er we were trapped in there, there were three of us, and we couldn't get out, and we were there ooh about twelve hours before they managed to get us out. and er i remember one one chap he were a bit scared, very much so, and oh dear dear dear, he'd only been within other bloke, a chap a chap from , what was his name now? i don't know. he . so of course i had to take my lead from him, i was only youngster then. but er we got out eventually, and they managed to get a road through to us, and but er and er i remember another time where a bank came in and they were one man trapped in the far end and there were another man trapped on this end and my brother and me we we dug round to him, we got to him, we got him bared so far and what to his waist, and it was still bitting and we got hold of his belt,right, ready? now, pull. you see? and we'd pull and his belt broke, you see? and we shot backwards and down it all come again, killed him. if his belt hadn't broke we should have got him out. but er the other chap at the other end, his his name was , bob . er they managed to tunnel in for from the other end to him, and er his hairs gone white. oh er. now what about the trade union, were you involved in the trade union? well we we had miners' association? notts miners' trade union then, and a matter of fact me dad was o on the committee, he was a committee member of that, on that. but erm we used to have a little shed, a little hut in the pit yard, where we used to go and pay our dues, every week how much were the dues? only thruppence a week, dues were scuse me . and er another thing we had as well, that the union had ar had er fixed for us, and that was a family doctor. and we used to pay the old man used to pay thruppence a week for the family doctor, you see? so we never had any doctors' bills. the man used to come round and collect that, a chap named . he used to come and collect that, and er but er the union well we were alright a chap named he was the secretary and er and jack he was the president and me dad were on the committee, there were several of on the committee. and we did get on reasonably well with the management then,u until we used to run into trouble of course, and er the er nineteen twenty one strike, i can vividly remember that, it was a glorious summer, dead against us nobody wanted any coal and it you had the it gave th the management the opportunity of selling all this all the old stock all the rubbish and everything. clean the there used to be huge stocks leading right up to mapperley pit, of this slag and stuff, and they sold all that off, and er that was the year that fought and al broke his thumb on him. and y that was the year i met d th i met the wife in that in june of that year. but er it was a tough struggle that was. we did get a bit of u of er union pay then i i couldn't tell you how much it was but it wasn't very much, but er and why did you go out on strike in the first place? well you see i was nineteen and er really i don't really know why the nineteen twenty one strike was. except that is was for money, i know it was for money but er i don't know the exact er because i think i think in that year, we got what we called the samuel award, that were three shillings a day, basic, you see? if you only worked half a day you got the three shillings samuel pay you see? we got that. i were i were er we won that. it was quite a a long strike them was. two year three or four months, that strike lasted. while they got cleaned up. and that strike was lost? pardon? wo that strike was lost was it? it was a it was lost er no i don't think it was entirely lost, not the twenty one strike, wasn't entirely lost. did we go i er i'm now i'm pretty sure we went home for a seven and a half hour day in twenty one, pretty sure that's what one of the things that we did. seven and a half hour day, that was the idea. and the same wages. i think you'll find that that was the twenty one strike. and do you remember the general strike? do you remember the nineteen twenty six miners' strike ? oh yes. vividly. i vividly remember that. there were no strike pay, you just had a promissory note that er if ever they got any money they'd pay you, you see? but er course we n n never got any money because we er m it more or less disbanded the notts miners' union that did, it er it took everything away was that was when we were er er s the spencer union was formed more or less by the management. and so you were telling me about the twenty six strike. well it wasn't a strike really, it was a lock out. we were at that time of day the minima the minimum wage was fourteen shillings a day. and they er locked us out until we'd go back for ten and thruppence a day, so of course we didn't go back. and it was a great tragedy cos er it did i i it did cause the general strike and er we had a week of the general strike. and do you remember how that affected nottingham? not really we it wasn't. we weren't really interested, particularly in nottingham, it was the general strike but what we were going to do i mean we'd o er we we'd er already formed, more or less, a government of our own, if you understand me, to take over, you see? if the general strike had lasted, we could have took over, but er jimmy stepped in and er he was the er he was the er general secretary of the n u r, national union of railwaymen, and er he stepped in and persuaded the government to more or less step in and take over and arbitrate with the miners. well that was a foolish thing, really cos there were four hundred and forty coal owners in the government, and what they were going to arbitrate in our favour for we couldn't see. but er that is what actually happened and er jimmy thomas sold the pass, he was the biggest traitor we ever had. well from there, that, was evolved the spencer union, the this er after the strike was defeated? at the strike we we didn't go back. we didn't accept the arbitration, you see? we still stopped locked out. we were getting no money from anywhere and you had borrowed , you had to pay it back when you went back to work, you see? anyway er it the outcome of it was that the spencer union was formed, george spencer, er i in collaboration with er the mine owners, you see? and he accepted the ten and thruppence, you see? and we had to go back, you see? because one reason in nottingham why they went back was the fact blidworth pit was starting to turn coal. they'd just sunk that pit and they were starting to turn coal and the the the miners were straggling back to the new pit you see? and it more or less made it that we'd got to go back for the ten and thruppence. but er we didn't i didn't go back, we'd already we'd we'd got some land and er and we'd set up er pig breeding and er we'd got about a hundred and twenty strong store pigs at that time. and er a horse and dray and float. id' er er g got married in er twenty five and er agreed to buy a house in twenty six, january, moved into it and er so er i took over the t horse and dray and er opened the front room as a a shop, a greengrocers shop. we used to grow quite a bit of stuff on the land and er we lived. the wife used to wait for somebody coming in the shop to buy something and then she'd go out and get a a bit of meat and we'd have a dinner, and er we had seven months of that before i was eventually more or less forced to go back. actually i was flitting people from gedling to blidworth with this horse and dray. and er so of course there was no future in it really, so i went back. me brother was deputy in at the time erm what when did you go back? pardon? when did you go back? i went back in er in the november, just before christmas. that's about it isn't it? seven month. may june july august september october, that's right. and erm i went back but er i we i we i went back er daitling and er i got er a daitle contract. and what did that mean? that meant that er we were maintaining the roads, you see? and and enlarging gates er main roads and that sort of thing. and i i used to have er i u i used to have men working for me, you see? and you were a butty at that time? i was i was er er we we weren't butties because butties worked on the face, you see? yeah. we were daitlers we worked on the in the stone, you see? butties worked in coal,daitlers worked in stone, you see? and er i er carried on with that, going on very nicely, until they decided to mechanize gedling, you see? and brought the coal cutter in and they they put brought the pans and the shaker pans they used to wear belts then, for shaker pans you see? it used to shake the coal down the b banks. and they were diffic to start them off, we went in on the thursday, thursday morning, and we had to fit all these things together and make 'em work, you see? and it was sunday afternoon when i came out the pit the next time. they used to send us bread and teas down from chase farm. and erm we eventually got these things working and er i got the contract along with jack to turn these pans over, you see? as they got one face off we'd turn them, over, the pans had to be turned over and backs built you see? and road ripped ready for the next day you see? and er i got the contract for that. and then when i was about twenty four, twenty four or five i'd got twenty men working for me, so er we weren't doing so bad. and er then i had trouble with the er with the er afternoon gaffer, chap named . and er we fell out over a fall really or whatever it was. and er i was informed like that er i i had d stop till six o'clock at night, that night, and i was informed that er i'd got to come back at night and bring me men. so i decided that it was time to pack up i decided that the nights were made to sleep on n n n and i was going to sleep on them you see? so i came out the pit and went into cripps and bought a lorry. but while you were still a miner did you have any trouble being in the miners' association when the spencer union was ? never joined it. we never joined it. we still maintained the remnants of the notts miners' association. we still maintained that, because er were you victimized it because of that? oh we were victimized alright, oh yes. yes we had all the dirty jobs. all the dirty jobs and the tough jobs to do. what sort of things were that ? well i if if there was er any new er wanted opening up, which was always a minimum wage job, you see? we had those sort of jobs to do. like when we opened opened a ninety z up and we couldn't open that face up, it was hell. they you used to go and walk on the face in a morning an and you'd rap on the face with your pick and buggers are green,ther they're not ripe yet. you've got to earn your living out of that. but er we eventually beat it though and as i say a good colliery you could er you could beat 'em to it. matter of fact dad, he agreed with the management for er er er you see the management never wanted anybody on the minimum wage, never wanted to be on the min, so he agreed with 'em f for a special price for our coal we got out. and er within a few months we'd got the thing going till they were blowing out, and we were making it hand over fist you see? and what sort of money were you making on that then? oh were making twenty five bob a day then. and this was after they tried to victimize you ? that's right,yeah, yes. we booked ten pound a week. what we were getting then. and it were a lot of money, a a lot of money, and they pay a lot of benefits out of that now because the old man used to have it you see? and you have to pay them board. they wouldn't let us pay our board you see, used to ha used to have twenty five bob spending money then. and w did they try to victimize you in any other way? well er n no, not necessarily, i mean that was the worst way they could have victimize you by er making things damn awkward. that was the top and bottom of it, but er the er, the worst jobs we used to have you know, was digging dead 'uns out and actually i remember seeing one chap, he got his leg in a coal cutter and got his his foot cut off. u and of course the there were things that er y you got used to, you see? and we just pulled his shove a bit of bind back of his leg, tied it up together, stopped the bleeding, shoved him out. now i remember another chap , he got done with a pothole. that were of piece of bind that come out and it was shaped like a pear, 'bout a ton in weight, easy. and er that poor devil i i it hit him and i know wen we got him out, one eye was about an inch lower than the other. it'd split his skull. he died on the way down while we were carrying him to pit bottom. where that was er but er i remember i er i broke a collar bone while we were down the pit, down there. and er we were coming out of we were getting the tub out an and er me brother was at the front end of th it went off the rails and er as he pushed it back, i was at the back and it jammed me again the face, and broke this collar bone. about twelve o'clock. but you weren't allowed to come out the pit, i mean you had to wait until knocking off time you see, before you were come out, anything like that i mean er unless you've got broken legs or anything like that. so i had to s stop in the gate and mark tubs for two . and then i had about a a a two mile walk to pit bottom, you see. and this thing was just dragging me down you see? and then when you got home er had me dinner you see? but you couldn't go to the doctor's until surgery time, that were six o'clock you see. so off i went to the doctor's, six o'clock, and he examined me shoulder. aye it's broke broke there, just there. spot. he says er and he lifted me hand up, here and bound it tight and bandaged across it. he says, now, when it gets slack, tighten the bandage up, you see? and come and see me again in a month. that was the therapy, that was what we got. and i saw him in a month, and he took the bandage off and me arm flopped of course. aye we'll see you in a fortnight and you'll be ready for work. i said, well what do i do with the arm, like? with this? had well he said, just get on with it and keep pushing it up the wall, just keep pushing it up the wall, just come back. that was the doctoring that we had for a broken collar bone you see? i mean nowadays you'd have a thomas splint on it you see? so i remember the the spanish flu, this was the kind of doctoring we get if you don't mind this little these little incidents? when the spanish flu was on they were dying like flies. and they used to let us come out of the pit at three quarter time, there were six of us, all of a size, strong as young bulls and er we used to have to i if the body was within less than a mile from the church, you see? you weren't allowed to have a hearse, you had to carry them to the church, and er er we used to b bury them by lamp light. we were allowed to come out a at er twelve o'clock you see? and we got payed seven and sixpence for each body we carried, you see? that was something to make up the quarter of your shift. and er i remember going to the doctor's with me mother and where as we sat in the surgery which was packed, eventually the old doctor come out of the door old . he says, there, he says, you can all go home and die now, all i've got left is epsom salts. oh and so what did you do? we had to go home. we didn't die though, erm did you have some sort of treatment at home? did you have some sort of recipes? home-made reci oh erm my moth mother had it, she got but she got better with it. but er er er this this old doctor, i remember the wife, she had an ectopic that was er a er conception in the fallopian tube, you see? and er the chap that tended her was er a locum, he were only a young chap, and er he says, oh oh i'm sorry, he says, i'd better get me old man to come, he said i don't suppose i'll ever see another of these in my career. he got the old man to come, old the same old bugger. and er he went up and examined the wife and he come down stairs and he said to me are you the husband? . that's how he used to talk. er yes that's me doctor. well he says, i might as well tell you, he said. your wife could go out like the snuff of a candle. and he went. er the young chap then came down stairs and he's says, i'm having dinner with er i forget what the surgeon's name was now, he says er, i'll have a word with him about it. he says come down to the surgery in the morning. and i went down and he gave me a letter, he says take your wife in to the general hospital with this letter. took her in the next day. and waited for her and brought her home again. and he removed it. mm. so but that was the doctoring that we had in those days. with all this er trauma, did you have er wh what did you do with your leisure time, what did you do with your free time out side of the outside the pit? did you play football ? oh yes er oh yes er. er er always played football or tennis and i i played all sports that i could get hold of. cricket and er yes i er matter of fact i was selected to play for notts once, er er a one thursday afternoon. and er, when i went to me i found out it in the post it was in the post, that i was picked. so i went down to see the secretary who i found out was in the flying horse and er told him who i was, ooh yes, ooh yes, you're playing this afternoon, aren't you? yes i oh yes i remember now. i says, it all depends,how much er do we get like? cos i was on the afternoon shift and as i told you i was getting twenty five bob a day. ooh he says we can only pay you your travelling expenses. oh, i says, that's four pence, tram fair. i said i'm sorry but you'd better pick somebody else. i'd rather have the twenty five bob. but er sport played a big part in our lives, you see er then. because we'd nothing else to do, i mean really. er you see the the wireless that we'd got was the old cats whisker on a crystal, you see, and a pair of earphones that we used to and if anybody rustled a paper , you see? so th the pictures, you could go to the pictures, but er pearl light and the clutching hand and and m mary pickford and how much was it to go to the pictures? well i it all depended the er when you'res a school er at school you see? it used to be a ha'penny on the front row, you see? and a penny for the back. and the first three rows used to be a ha'penny and the the others used to be a penny. see better, you was looking up it on the front rows you see. but er yeah. and i remember the first talkie i ever heard, i walked in the elite one night, with the wife and er as we walked in we hear a chap says i'm i am . that were the first words i ever heard on and that week, al jolson was on the hippodrome with sonny boy. they were the first er talkies that came to nottingham, they were. now you're you're telling us that you left the pit and you bought a lorry so could yes. you move on about what you did then as your next yeah. job? well. we bought this ton lorry. morris tonner from cripps and er i said i'd buy the lorry off 'em if they'd find me some work. so they sent me to morbry's lane wharf, colliery wharf. and er it was the time as they were there were popularizing a a scheme from mine to your cellar, m i n e, mine to your cellar, you see? which meant that we had to cart this coal from the wharf, take it to the client and put it in his coal house, you see? otherwise he used to just shoot it up, you see? but we had to go and take it into his culler i had one day at that , i thought i thought i'd had enough coal. so i went and saw a building contractor, friend of me dads and er he welcomed me with open arms, he'd just got a contract for building council houses down dunson street at netherfield. and er i got going with that, carting bricks and timber and all that sort of thing for him, got really going and er fetching ballast from train concrete. and er within eighteen months i'd got three lorries running. how much were you earning? well the earnings of course went into the business we'd er there was dad, he'd retired then out of the pits, early. he'd retired at fifty five, to run this er small holding we'd got you see? and help with the lorry business and er i used to get three pound a week out of it. and er camel lairds i er cleared a lot of stuff from camel lairds. terrific lot of stuff from there. paint, red paint that they used to paint railway wa er railway carriages. they used to make railway carriages down there, you know, then? where about's is that? camel lairds on n kings weather road erm it's the government, r o f, there. they took it over. it were eleven acres there under one roof. and er i know i cleared a lot of er fire bricks. there was a range of er forges and i i car i o everything had to be cleared for when camel lairds finished with it. and i cart a lot of these bricks, fire bricks, up to this land that we've got and er this was in nineteen thirty seven. nineteen thirty seven. and i i built er a bungalow for the old folks, all all interior were fire bricks. the outside was of course was facing bricks but er how did you manage to do that then? well i i was a collier. you did anything when you was a collier, you see? and i'd been to as i tell you, i'd been to night school, joinery classes. i'd tiled it, the er oh it er yeah. i did all this work, i took that out the door, out of there and built all this and built me garage and you see? you can do anything if you try you know. if you try hard enough. mm. how long we and then after about eighteen months er sterk came along with the road traffic act, you see? and you had to have licences for your lorry then. a b and c licences and er it got so complicated that er i er eventually drafted in by virtue of er being able to sell firewood, er drafted into the c i s, the co-op insurance. in nineteen thirty two. may nineteen thirty two. and how did you come to get that job? well my brothers was er he was er an agent for them and er i in the country area, burton joyce, lowdham and all round there. and er and er he got to take his boss down to er burton joyce lowdham sorry, lowdham, one afternoon on a case,case. would i take him in the lorry?yes i can do that for you. so i took them in the lorry. and while i was waiting for them i i went into a little shop and for some cigarettes, and er me brother y oh younger brother, we'd started him up er f he was a plumber. and more y o out of work than in them days. and we'd started him up with a little donkey engine and a saw bench, started him up making bundles of firewood up. and er so while i was in this shop i i sold this chap five hundred bundles of fire wood you see? and i thought, right, i think i've just about got time to nip home and fetch that fire wood and pick them up when they you see? mm. low and behold when i got back they were waiting for me you see? and i apologized for what i'd done, sold the firewood, took 'em home again. and er about a month later, this chap sent for me. er he wanted to er see me, his brother had got promoted and was half of his book was come vacant, would i have half the book? he says er an er a while after he said to he he said, did you ever know how you got on here, at agency? no and i certainly would. he said, well i thought to me self well the bloke that's co just walk in the shop and sell five hundred bundles of fire wood, he could sell insurance. oh. and what what wages did you get for that then? the first we didn't get any wages. or commis it was all commission you see? never worked for wages in me life, after i was sixteen. but er me first week's commission were two pound twelve and sixpence. and i'd got ten and four pence more we used to pay twelve and fourpence monies i had to borrow to buy the book. a wife and a new baby, so er you had to work. in and other words i had to get on my bike. i'm sorry mr but we well ah wha what sort of er things did you have to do then? well i used to cycle from gedling to apsley, me debit was at apsley and i used to have to cycle from there to apsley and i used to take bit of food an and bread and cheese and pieces of anything i could pick up in me pocket, and i daren't come home till i'd got some business. use to have to get a new business canvassing. we used to get help from the co-ops because they used to give us lists of new members and we used to be able to canvass those. but er within two years i'd doubled me book and i was averaging over five pound a week, then. what kind of hours did you work the ooh aye well ha. you didn't consider that. you didn't consider that, you er i as i say you'd go out in the morning. if you had a good day you'd probably come home for your tea, you see? otherwise you'd be out more or less into the night because you got to go and see the men at night you see? and you imagine in the nineteen thirties, selling insurance. it was hell selling insurance then. i mean i i if you could get in for a penny a week that was alright because when things got better you could build on a penny a week, you see? if you was greedy and went for a shilling you lost it after a week or two you see? but er and were you involved in a trade union at all? oh yes, oh yes. it er we had to be it was a closed shop, that was, and er i er i was the er i was the secretary for er for our chairman rather for ou our er local local branch, for the nottingham area branch of er usdor you see? we and how did you come to be that? oh i i was elected u i could talk. i'd had i'd had schooling you see? from the old man, you see he'd always been an old i l p man and er i remember when harris put up for parliament in the rushcliffe division. he er he was strong enough man to put fifty pound down for his deposit, towards his deposit of a hundred and fifty you know? and er they reckoned he were mad but er he got it back. aye so of course as i say er i i we were more or less grew up with it. it er it grew into it. and then when i got promotion i got promoted to dif district inspector. then we had to change the unions to newsize and er i er i became national president of the newsize er district inspectors branch of newsize yes i was president till i retired. and did you e ever remember having any trouble? any industrial trouble? er no, not never had any industrial trouble while i was in. i i i'll never forget i er i used to try er you see we used to have three sets of commissions. twenty five percent, fifteen percent and ten percent, you see? well the twenty five percent was whole life business and fifteen percent was a commission er a term endowment and the ten percent was endowment, you see? but the the results for the ten percent were were better than is had nothing for me. i think it's next door the te er the fifteen percent was less than the ten percent, you see? less er less for the c for the customer. well up in scotland the main er er er was twenty five percent. i mean the scottish boys i mean they always wanted the big end of the stick you see? they didn't believe in selling endowments, they only sold whole life you see? a lot of them did. anyway at one of the branch meed er e c exi er executive meetings. i i i er put forward the idea that twenty five percent was dying out,this. can switched off a second? anyway you see the trouble was that the twenty five percent business was falling, falling fast. people were getting educated to endowment assurance you see. so i i i start to put it across to the to the why not try and negotiated one commission, fifteen percent, you see? cut your ten percent out, cut your twenty five percent out and accept ten fifteen percent you see? we used to have three lots of entries in our collecting books you see? i said, it'll cut all that out, chief office'll welcome you because it'll save such a lot of but er the scottish boys, oh no, oh no he'd never accept that, you see? i said, well the men with the bigger books of twenty five percent, we could compensate them, you see? but er no they wouldn't wear it. consequently eventually the twenty five percent went all together. and they'd still got a majority of ten percent, you see the fifteen percent went as well, you see? they accept the deal,? now another thing er while on union business er i used to go up on negotiations, you see? and er i er i went up on negotiations, we used to get a small a small basic wage you see? and erm i i w we went up on er to try and get the basic wage increased and er i know mr he was the er general manager at the time. i er i tried to tell him he he tried to point out to me, he says, that er the average earnings you see of district inspectors you see? was i think he said it were about twenty six pound a week for that time you see? but you know mr i i don't believe in these average earnings, average business, oh yes there is correctness the accountants will vouch for it you see? yeah but i i'm not talking about th being correct i said. i said, you see the point is that the temperature the temperature at the north pole is a lot lower than it is in th on the equator i said. but you can't con you can't persuade those chaps at the north pole that they never get any frost you know, you see? course the average temperature is no degrees centigrade you see. so they don't get any frost on your argument. i said the same i can't persuade our chaps on the yorkshire moors that they are getting twenty six pound a week, when they're not, you see? but according to you they are, you see? that's why i say let's have an increase in basic wage yeah. you see? i'm saying this today. instead of talking about an average twelve percent or thirty percent, you see? go for a basic. now erm let's come on to er the last war and er i'd like to know what what you did as part of your war effort. well i was in the insurance then, of course, you see? and er i was too o old for call-up at the beginning of the war, well we had a car so er we were asked, anyone that had a car to volunteer for er a r p services you see? so erm the first week of the er of hostilities i i went and volunteered to for the a r p. i'd had er er er strange life really yes. but very very interesting. but what, but what i find so interesting is because people talk nowadays as if it's only recently women have had jobs erm yes. and careers but you obviously had one i've had one all my life all your life all my life, you see yes. that's what i find so interesting. yes, mostly of course, well mm. it's all office work yes. and er you see and, and anyway i finished up my holiday and the sergeant said,he kept his promise and er sent me a report over the newspaper, you see, and er and of course and i liked the isle of man, you know, i went for trips around the island and various places and er, and i did see a manx cat yes. no tail oh dear oh dear but you see then of course and i was still not married but you see i, as i say, then i went to cambridge and that's when i met my husband and all his family were so kind to me, er he had erm two sisters living in a flat round the backs, you've heard of round the backs mm. haven't you? the back of kings college i spent hours and hours around the flat, back of kings college, cambridge and er, you see and we, we went sometimes for a service. his mother died when she was sixty unfortunately. or sixty two rather but his father lived until he was eighty six and his father was the district goods and passenger manager at cambridge and er later on, of course, er when he was old enough, he, he was in the same office as his father was but not the same position, you see, but he was a clerk, a railway clerk, and his brother was stationmaster of colchester and his grandfather was also a stationmaster and that would be in queen victoria's reign when, when railways first began and then again, you see, in those first days, you see, when there were highwaymen and that sort of thing erm signalmen, signalmen were issued with a truncheon for their own safety, you see, and i've got one. really! yes with . but i don't want er many people to know no. about it, because you see i don't want anyone breaking my door down and bashing in, you don't know who's who these days, do you and er but you see they, that's how . so that i married into what you call a railway family. you did, didn't you? i did, yes and er, and so, and er as i say er i've had a most wonderful life and i've been a widow now for ten years. it's ten years ago since i lost hugh but er, i don't feel lonely er not really. well you've got so many friends and sisters, haven't you? well i've got so many happy memories, you see, well then of course when hugh and i married, you see, er we had a apartments down at oh, really? yes and we u that was, that was divided into flats then was it then? oh no, no, no, well there's an old lady lived there named mrs and her husband was a clergyman. they called him father . at one time he, he lived at, they lived at but er er she was a widow and she was ninety but she was very good to us and, but we had er, we had apartments but there was a lock on both sides of the door, you know what i mean, we were quite self-contained and we had er er a narrow stairs and because of the war i couldn't, you couldn't er, i used to scrub the stairs down because you couldn't buy carpet in those days, you see because of the war and to the shortage of stuff and so i used to keep those stairs nice and, we had a, a, we went, as we went up these stairs erm it, i suppose originally, you see, it would have been back stairs for the servants, you see, in the hall and this old lady used to go in and if ever she had the doctor she used to ask me if i would go and sit with her and hold her hand while the doctor came, you see. she had other daughters in the town but she always wanted me and if ever she wanted anything to do with her papers and books and financial things, she used to ask my husband to go in, you see the day after we got there she brought us a huge dish like that with mushrooms which er grew f er well there are houses built there now but er at that time they had a big meadow there sort of a copse er in it with a bunch of trees and you see and all these mushrooms grew, you see, and they were, you know, they're nice you see. we paid rent to be there and er and of course either hugh or me or both of us came up to see my mother every day, you see, unless we knew she was going to have a visitor and then we used to take a day off mm. and we'd go off to felixstowe or somewhere but you see we still went away because he had four first class passes a year mm. being on the railway and er, you see, er and of course i went then under his pass i suppose mr and mrs then and er and then of course we started to er when my parents first died we, we started to get around. yes. you see, and so we went to oh inverness, aberdeen and across to the isle of skye, and down the skye and back across the water to mallaig you see and er then we stayed one time at fort william and because i love scotland, so did he and erm and, and then and all r and then, and another thing, erm, this is before i married erm i went down, oh no, both of us, that's right, we went down to stay at erm not, not portsmouth er southsea er there, there's a place near there, next door eastbourne? no, not eastbourne, erm gosport? southsea don't know. nex anyway it's quite near portsmouth and we heard that the first queen elizabeth ship, they don't say it's the first but they call this one the q e two but there was a q e one, you see at one time and so we took a coach from there to southampton because we heard that she was in dock there and so we went and there were crowds of people and all in a queue waiting to go in. well we took our turn and we waited to go in but once we got in we broke away from the crowd and when they all came out and went to lunch in the town we didn't. we stayed on board and we went up on to every deck and there was even a gentleman, he showed us up on the bridge on that er on that and, and of course there was the little shop and i bought i thought i must buy something on the queen elizabeth and i bought a pen. one of these er, i suppose it'd be a ballpoint or whatever you call it and this, i've still got it, it says on the queen elizabeth, see, and er, you see, we said, we said, well never mind very much, we can have something a snack afterwards and so we stayed on there from eleven o'clock in the morning until three in the afternoon, you see, and er er and we were wandering around and we saw the dining room, we saw the captain's table and er, you know it was, and, and then we looked along one deck, we were high up, and down below there were rows of, rows of lifeboats in case you see there was an accident. of an accident yes you see, but oh i enjoyed, we had some lovely holidays. yes, sounds like you did. i, i did, and then of course as i say er, you know, with my husband, well i had lovely holidays before but when you've got a companion it's all too different isn't it? it is i really, that's what i live on now, memories of the happy holidays i've had with him and, and even to this day i keep in touch. janet posted a letter for me last week to a friend who i worked with at ipswich, she was one of the girls behind the counter and at the moment they, her and her husband, he, he, he, he was on the, he finished up but he started as a lad in the kitchen but he finished up as a chef on the dining cars and they married and er and they've got er two children erm they're married to and, and we kept, we've kept in touch with each other for sixty years yes. sixty years, i wrote to her last week and i had a letter from her the week before yes and we've kept in touch and they live up er witton churchley oh yes you know where that is yes i do. yes that's right and we've kept in touch all those years that is nice isn't it? well its wonderful really you see yes yes. and she we we we were good friends, you see mm when er, we've kept friends you see, they don't come here often, like me they're getting old mm. and she's got arthritis, well in her knees, same as i have but not quite so bad because er, well up to now, but then again she's younger than i am er several years younger than me and, but she's getting on and so is jack you see and er, and er so erm i've had a, as i say, i've had, i've had a wonderful life really. you have haven't you? you know you say you lived in at ipswich station? yes. erm, didn't, at needham market didn't people live in there or main entrance? where? at needham market station. oh, well,n i don't know what it's like now but because the booking office is closed. yes,th that used to be through the main entrance, isn't it, the booking office. you go through the main door up the steps. you go up the steps, in the main door mm. and the booking office was on the left mm. and the stationmaster's office faced the platform but there is another door that to get into as soon as you got in the main door to the left, you see and with a flap and that's the door that we used to take in the parcels, you see and very often we used to go in that door or sometimes we would go through o on to the platform and go in the stationmaster's door, you see and then there again, if i took messages to the stationmaster on the single telegraph er i had to go down the steps because th more often than not that they were in the basement. it was, there's the basement and then a large room above where they used to have meetings er, you see, and er, and er, well they did they had friends from stowmarket go and visit them, you see. didn't the stationmaster and the clerk live on the premises? er, oh yes, they lived in the station next you see. that's the bit that joins on one side of the main entrance area? yes they've got there are two little doors aren't there, which are probably their front doors? well,th yes, well that's it, they are going facing the station and it used to be so much prettier than it is now. mm. pretty the daisies and things and the stationmaster lived that side which side, what on the left hand side as you face as you face the station, he lived that side you see and er there, the room where they used to entertain their friends was just the other side of the wall the booking office, you see, and er he was such a kind man, his name was mr mm. and his, his er son was one of the lads who worked in the office doing the middle turn, you see, and er i don't know if he's still alive. he must be eighty, because i mean there wasn't all that much difference in our ages. you don't know where he went to when he left? well i, he lived at stowmarket for years but then i heard not so long ago that they had moved to ipswich but where i don't know but they must be, whether he's than i have now i don't know either. on the other side was th the chief clerk would live? no, he, no i think it was er, i can't remember who lived there. i think it was one of the signalmen or aha i can't remember exactly who lived on the right hand side, i've forgotten but th i know the chief clerk lived just a little way down , you see, er in one of those little red brick cottages? yes, that's right down there, down there, down and as i say who i took early and late turns with and er why i same as at cambridge. there were twenty five staff. was this at needham? ca no, not needham. oh no i had nothing to do with the staff at the no, no that was at ipswich he, he were a stationmaster, you see, er he was exceptionally nice man. you never heard him say a bad word or anything like that . well he was quite, he was a good man. he used to . oh i cried when i left there, i really did, it upset me. yes. but and when we all quite shock how many were working there, how many girls were working there then at needham? only me. so you, yes. only me in the office. yes. you see, and er the porters did the er er cleaned the waiting room and dusted, you see. well, there was a porter there, called len and he, he was eighteen and er of course you know well i i was as i said sixteen, so he was a bit older than me but he, whilst he was at needham he said well when i'm eighteen i'll get my calling up papers. cos that's during the first world war, you see, and erm, he did and so he said goodbye to us all and he said i'm going up now to say goodbye to your mother and he ran up the street here to say goodbye to my mother. she made some tea, she told me afterwards and stayed and stayed and stayed and he lived at prindon and his mother was very very deaf and my mother got worried because he was going away the next day and she said to him, len don't you think you ought to spend the evening with your mother and he said, yes, i'll go now and he ran off and he ran back again and he said, you don't mind if i write to ivy do you? she said, no you write and he'll, she'll write back, you see but, and he went out to france and he was killed in three months and and his name, so they told me was on the er,on the board at er . do you know i often wonder what happened to the honour board at needham market. there used to be an honour board and i was on it and so was miss 's brother, er ivor because er who whoever won the scholarship, you see, their name went on the honour oh, i see. board, over the door in the church? no, no, in the school, er in the er, no it wouldn't be in the church, no in the school, oh and of course i'm talking now about the old school mm because i don't know anything about these new schools. no. no i don't know what's happened to that. no, i, i wondered because er it was quite an honour to have your name yes. put on the honour board. yes. you see, and my name was on there, as i say and miss was the top . no i don't know whether hers was on, but i know her brother's was, you see, i, he died of course. yes. so how many worked there, there was a lot of people worked at needham station then. there were what, two porters er, yes there would be two porters, yes. then there was you yes. and two clerks and two t these two lads er so there'd be two clerks and two lads? no, one clerk one, one chief clerk chief clerk two lads and i took early and late turns with him yes but the other one went on the district oh, i see, yes. as i said before as a relief clerk yes. for holidays and sickness and so on and then later on relief stationmaster yes. and you see eventually he got a station of his own at thorpe le soken. yes. you see down on the yes so that's how many and then the stationmaster of course the signalman. how many signalmen, just the one? well no cos he had actually so there'd be two signalmen, would there? yes. that's nine people worked at needham station. yes, i, i no one works there now you see. they don't work there? no, no, the signal box is closed. oh, now, is it really? yes, yes. well i heard not so long ago that they were going to either pull it down or well i think they want to keep it, either there or move it somewhere oh, well i, i think that'll be a shame. it would be a sha i think they've re they don't want to lose it. no. i hope not. but as i say they might they have how things have deteriorated since it's amazing, that there was nine people who worked there at the time of the war. yes. you see, and of course when i was at cambridge, you see, and that was during the second world war, well of course, you see, i remember seeing a plane because of course the station was a prime target yes, yes. and somehow i don't know how, but somehow they always knew when the train was being loaded up with tanks and then that was the night we would get a raid and of course, you see, they all ra tried for the station. well, you know,it you see, time were, i don't know i suppose, i don't know but i never seemed to be afraid and i used to have my or something round my waist, a belt with the keys hanging on and they supplied me with a as well, one of these, i don't know what they're made of they weren't all that heavy but still they were heavy enough to keep on. i mean they weren't aluminium so they blew off i used to wear one of those and er, you know, for safety, you see, but er anyway i survived the survived the war and but wh it's amazing really when i look back how we d how we managed because we had such nice people in there, as i say and like these actors jack claude cecily . they all came down and used to come in our rooms and all sorts of other and i met some very ni and of course, all nationalities, you see and no matter what they were, well of course cambridge has always been noted for different nationalities, hasn't it? mm. and of course i loved the town and although the station was about a mile from the town centre, people used to come from the town centre in their cars, they had lunch at our place er er at cambridge, you see, and there, there were two waiters and one, one of them took part-time cellar work, you see, and er, they were two brothers and er their name's the younger one they call tiny because he was the yo smaller than his brother but the other one you see and we did enormous business, especially during the war. mm but er yes you see and i'm glad i didn't miss it, i'm glad i went through all what i did and, and this particular raid, you see, the siren went and they said a telegraph office read, you see,an and then i thought i'll go to the back door and i went to the, well it was actually on the front of the station and i went to the front of the station and there was this plane swooping down like that and of course, you see, the bombs didn't fall down straight like that but they went as the plane went and they knocked down a row of houses at the end of the road. yes a row of houses and of course when i saw i looked out the door and there was this plane swooping down like that and it seemed so low because they were aiming an and the bomb fell in the cattle market and, and i threw myself on to the stone floor, you see, and er and presently one of the ambulance men came round to my office door and he said, are you alright? i said, yes thanks. i sat by the fire knitting and er he said,i can see . well you took all this sort of things in your stride but the next day we heard about these houses being knocked down, you see, and i think that's the nearest i've been to be killed but one day, one saturday and that was in a daylight raid, one saturday afternoon because, you see, i was off every afternoon but i worked till ten every night, you see, and er so erm but of course hugh worked during the day and he was off in the evening, that's why he used to come down to see, to see us and er he used to come in er you see and leave his lodgings and, oh be about nine o'clock and he spent the last day up there perhaps with his friends, have a chat, and er, you see, and but er and i was walking along it was called and suddenly a plane came over and i thought oh i expect it's one of ours. when all of a sudden they dropped a bomb and i thought there wasn't at all, you see, and no siren had gone, nothing, you see, and there was broad daylight. mm. you see, of course we heard about it afterwards, you see, yeah, yes. but er i don't know perhaps we were braver than these days, perhaps you were braver when you're young mm, yes, perhaps that's true, yes. when you worked at needham, you must have seen all the toings, comings and goings on station yard,yard and a lot of cattle coming and going. well no, er we, no we didn't, the only cattle we saw was when they were on the train, cos i don't remember they, they seemed to. i don't know whether they dealt with cattle. aha it was mostly seeds and stuff like that. yes but you know russell . i know he, he's older than me. yeah, yeah, well he's i interviewed him er last year and he was telling me that he remembers going up into the loft in 's erm, the whole of the station yard was full of cattle. oh. so loaded off of the train. oh, oh i didn't know that, i, i perhaps that was, perhaps that was i think they were all going to market because obviously had a farm. oh yes they did. so it's possibly one market day i think he said. yes, well that might be the time, you see when perhaps i was at cambridge. yes. it might have been later than, than er when you worked there. yeah y he was saying people going on the trains is it when you worked there rather than animals oh i no animals no you see, no animals were er, only in the, in the trucks, you see. mm. passed through, because they didn't stop at needham and er but i always thought, you see, there were, i don't know several clerks in that office as i remember but i can't remember who they were anyway i didn't have, we didn't have much to do with them. no, no. you see, they were just more or less sort of, i thought they were just sea merchants. mm. yes that's probably to do with farm. er, yes no, not the mill really. aha, yes. i imagine. i, i don't remember any cattle no it may have been later yes. or being older he may have remembered times before that. yes, yes that's true yes because how old would he be now then? oh, he must about ninety. i tried to remember when you said he was born. oh. i can't remember maybe, he must be about ninety. yes, well i was er, you see born in eighteen ninety nine. yes. so of course i go as the years go yes. you see and like eighty six, now this year, i shall be eighty seven but you see when it comes to the end of the year, the turn of the year, i'll still be eighty seven yeah, yes. you see, until my next birthday, that is, you see, but i, well each year, you see, i always say well to my friends i am so thankful for my friends who drop in and each year i say, well i don't suppose i will be here much longer but i shall be here, i hope, while i can walk mm. but when i can't walk well i shall call in the doctor. cos i n i don't have a doctor year in hardly ever. i'm thankful for my good health, you see, because apart from arthritis, you see, i'm as well as anything and i hope i'm still in my right mind, you see, but i, now and again, i forget names mm, but then i forget names, my husband is dreadful with names well er he would even sometimes recognize yes. with people he knows quite well. oh i see. i think it's just some people are a bit like that and some are i i forget people, i forget but then, you see, as i never go out. well i went out once last year, you see, and i was lucky enough but and for years and years and years i took fynnon salts and which is supposed to be good for rheumatism. matter of fact this last couple of days i've started again but you see er of course that was before paracetamol came on, on the scene mm. and i have tablets from the doctor and you see as i say from the waist upwards i'm yes. i feel well and th and i try er and my husband's nieces they often ring me up er well i was on the phone to one of them when you came yesterday. er and she said i'll ring you ag i said oh dear someone now coming to the door, she said, never mind i'll ring you on saturday, so i said alright and er and she lives at wyndham, norfolk, my husband's niece and erm, you see, and then there's the other one and she said, auntie you're always so cheerful , i said, well i try to be cheerful because like everybody else i get a little depressed sometimes because, you see, i have no sisters and brothers, i have three elderly cousins who live away and who i, who i see, one was here a fortnight ago er er er my cousin and his wife er, you see, it will be on a wednesday, a fortnight today, no thursday, yes, you see, a fortnight ago and they said, we'll come again an we've always bought you a bunch of daffodils so we shall come again when the daffodils are and er and they bring me over bits and pieces because er she was a cook and they bring me something nice to eat that's nice, isn't it? isn't it nice but i haven't any er close relatives no and of course being, marrying at forty four er no family mm you see, you haven't got any family? no, not yet. i'm married but i haven't got any family yet oh, that's what i mean er and you'll have to make haste won't you? oh i don't know, i don't know whether it'll be like mark and jenny and perhaps never get round to it . no, i know, well i mean what is there for young people to look forward to these days and i feel really sorry for them and i mean all i hope is that jenny will get a job oh yes. when she's finished yes. er but i don't know whether there's any prospect, do you think she don't know, don't know. when y you know you said your father was a shoemaker? yes. whereabouts in needham did he have his shoe well it's where the bomb, where it was bombed out aha out yeah quite near the united reform church. i knew there was a shoemakers there. yes, mr yes and my father and mr what was your maiden name again? and he worked for mr ? i didn't no, did your father work for mr ? yes that was his name, you see well, well my father, as i say, he had a stroke and er he was in, in bed in the front room for seven years, you see. he er, hugh and i used to come up every day do what we could, you see, in those days if you had a stroke you had to lay there till you died. mm. er but nowadays i suppose they take you up to ipswich and you'd have er physiotherapy or something like that that's right to make you, to get you going again. yes, that's right yeah they do so much more nowadays. well that's it, but they didn't then, you see and er and doctor used to come up here oh yes i've interviewed his widow. mrs er mrs er she is isn't she nice? yes. oh i knew her years ago yes and of course, well she was er i haven't seen her for years and years but she's but but, you see, i am told that she's going to live next door to the, where she used to live the doctor's house er er unless that's pulled down, you know almost opposite the united reform church. which house is that? well there you, i don't know what it's like now but they u it's not quite opposite, is it? er it's more or less opposite where your father's shoe shop was. oh, is it? oh you mean the big red brick one next door to the doctor's surgery? er i er, yes the doctor just there. yeah that's it i how mrs 's father-in-law. i am going back to old dr oh, old dr , oh yes. you see, and he was, he, he probably brought me into the world, you see but, er you see, and mrs erm, you see, she was married to doctor and he used to come up to see my father and we had a different door then door being that's got a yale lock on now but he he'd say, hello frank, you know always so you got, oh he was so nice and it was such a shame that he died he was very young when he died. he, he was and i forget how old he was i think he was only in his forties. was that so, oh yes dear he was so nice yeah, everyone said how nice he was and old dr was quite a character yes he was, you see and he used to come down, you know, and everybody's family waiting to go into that tiny tiny little surgery but i don't know if it's the same now and the door half open in er well, anyway,still er he, he, he, he used to put something in a bottle and fill it up with water some liquid mm. you see i'm talking about his father but i liked er mrs 's first husband, you see and er i hear that her second husband isn't all that good. no, no he wasn't well, i went to see her er i think he may have had a stroke and he can't get about very well at all oh dear and i think he finds it difficult to speak yes as well an and is he, is he at home? last ti when i saw her he was, yes oh he was but because he's had a spell or two at stowmarket yes he had er new place there er er what's his name they've got a, they opened a new nursing home didn't they? oh, did they? er works for er there's only, oh i can't remember his christian name, david, david and his wife, you see, and i think he, david still works and of course he lives along the road from me. oh you know mr yes, yes and, and erm so on. mrs was very kind, she sent me a box of mince pies and barley water and shortbread all sorts, you know. christmas time and she did last year mm er and of course i've known walter for years but i don't know his wife, i've never met his wife and of course not being able to get out into the street now, i should get out for about two years after i lost my husband and then i got this er awful pain nobody knows unless they have it er this arthritis in my knees, you see, and erm and then i found that it was too much for me to er otherwise i used to walk up to the post box road and i used to count the steps, three hundred and something steps there and three hundred and something back, you see, and to the front door, you see, but i, i can't do it now but i have with help and i went out last year with er mrs and er twice we went to dulwich which i enjoyed and so did she and the last time we went to and er we had our lunch and we went to see my cousins at west suffolk and and, and then came home again, you see, and that's the only time i went out last year and usually i used to go to for a day and i am hoping that if i, i am hoping, well you can only hope, that i might perhaps go so out one sunday, once, just once in the , you see, because er,th that's when when you're old you've got to keep, you've got to hope for something mm. yes. and you've got to keep busy and you see now my sight has gone i now, not long distance, i can sit here and see television mm. you see i moved a bit more now but and i i've still got good hearing er apart from this ear here, this ear, i can't hear so well, quite so well, this side, you see so i always have to say excuse me while i, hang on while i turn off the television, you see, and then they have to wait a minute till i turn it off and then what i do is because i have this phone extension put in yes. you see i've got one in the front room and i had this one put in so then i say if i am in the kitchen, i say, i lift up the receiver, hello, and hear who it is and then i, i say hang on while i get round the chair and then you see i sit on the arm of this chair and talk because er it's difficult to stand too long mm. you see, but er, otherwise, you see, er you know i, i get on well really by you do, yes and i, i have a meal on the friday and er brought to me mm. and, and they're such nice people mm. do you know mrs and mr oh yes, they live up in creeting yes. and, and mrs ? yes, yes. now er her husband came down one day and i said to him, what's your name, and he said mr on this friday afternoon and you'll hear the latest video news. with where even the best films are just one pound for two nights. is the dealership with a difference. always puts the customer first. . what makes so special? you do. rain, some showers by midday. the afternoon will then have some good sunny spells. dry tonight, and cold. temperature high today of just, come on get up, sixty three degrees fahrenheit. sunny at first tomorrow but then the forecast for the rest of tuesday, more showers expected. trent f m summer weather, with of trent bridge, where rain or shine you'll always buy beautiful kitchens and conservatories. shop boys la ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta. here on trent. bring you their great summer savers. get a quotation during july and save up to forty percent. just dial one hundred and ask for freephone windows. or call nottingham or derby . that's for a free quotation. there's only one car in front. . see a world beating range from the m r two sports to rugged commercials. from the british built carina e to the corolla, the world's most popular car. and the dealer? with first class service, excellent customer care, and over one hundred and twenty new and used vehicles to choose from, there is only one dealer in front, keep in front, order your new l registration now at . call nottingham . they had everything. an irresistible softness with an inner strength that made them million sellers. they seemed in total harmony, but then one of them wanted to be free. yes one roll is now free, with the four roll pack of recycled toilet tissue. one of life's little comforts. this is it, the main event at . throughout july everything is reduced right across the board. three piece suites, dining suites, beds and bedroom furniture, coffee tables, t v cabinets. there's bargains for everyone and the prices are absolutely knockout. don't miss the main event at , throughout july at ,,, or . , the main event is on. wibble. work aren't they. ha ho ha ho take a whole record to pump the tyres up. fleetwood mac and big love. as we say good morning to lisa. good morning rob. well one subject that i think a lot of us shy away from, is mental illness. and we don't seem to be very tolerant in our society, of people who are a bit different. part of the problem is that most of us don't know very much about mental illness and we tend to see very negative images around us and on television. something like schizophrenia for instance is widely misunderstood. even the idea that people have a split personality isn't strictly true. now this coming september there's going to be a mental health awareness week, but if you'd like to get involved before that, then the nottingham branch of the , want to encourage anyone who's interested to visit them. now their motto is, a positive response to mental illness, and are heavily involved in the awareness week. they're also there to help anyone who's had experience of mental illness, or who cares for someone who's mentally ill. just call us for more details about the group, and their next meeting, which is on july the sixteenth. and finally , a local furniture project, are opening a new twelve bed hostel for young people who are homeless. it's seen a the first stage towards living more independently for many young people, and they're offering quick access to a bed for the night. now need you help, because they hope to offer a lot more than just a roof over the heads. they need donations of books and magazines, board games, a t v, bedding and sewing machines. almost anything in fact they'd be able to use to help these young people. please call us if you can donate any of these items, at the trent f m care-line, on . a car is stolen every minute, and the frightening reality is that your car could be next. if you leave your car, even if not for long, you should be taking necessary precautions. always lock your car whenever you leave it, even if only for a moment. if you have an alarm or security devices, remember to set them, and close all windows. also have your windows etched with the registration or vehicle identification number. this will deter the car thief. remove all personal belongings from the car when you leave. and it's also important to never leave young children or animals in a parked car, because if windows are closed, there is a grave danger of suffocation. i myself know only too well what it's like to have a car stolen, so as a car is one of our most valuable possessions, it pays to take care of it at all times. even if you think you're only h leaving it for only a minute. a minute is long enough for a thief. we have a leaflet available with a useful checklist for you to keep. if you'd like a copy just phone us at the careline and the number to call is kept the er the press fairly busy in the last week. cropping up now and again in the nationals from nottingham, has been the story of the mongrel merv, named after merv hughes the australian cricketer, who tried to grab hold of er merv on the first day of the test about a week or so ago. when he managed to er get in er through the gates or wherever under the fence to the trent bridge cricket ground. the end of the story though yesterday, as er unfortunately merv's owner somewhere in nottinghamshire didn't come through. maybe too embarrassed. maybe just wanted to be rid of the dog. er which is the case unfortunately in er some instances with animals, but it's been as you know perhaps at the r s p c a shelter just down the road there at er , but it's gone now to a happy home in derbyshire. and a photo in the press today of sisters, charlotte, five and amy, three. and merv will join them and their family in derbyshire with a two year old lookalike, a mongrel named floss. the end of the story of merv. coming up next hour. the first in a series over the next few weeks on monday. at around about a quarter past eleven, with jenny . jenny who's on the afternoon show all this week, for andy who's on the morning show, no hang on the breakfast show for gary . anyway the series is called, a day in the life of your council. yes nottinghamshire county council, kicking the series off in about twenty minutes from now we're chatting with mick , who is the boss, the chief executive of the county council. it's eleven o'clock, i'm phil . detectives are stepping up their hunt for a rapist who attacked a woman at nottingham's music festival at the weekend. the victim, who's in her twenties, was grabbed as she walked through woodland a few hundred yards from the crowds in park. security forces in northern ireland are on full alert ahead of loyalist celebrations of the twelfth of july. there have been nine arrests overnight in clashes with police. up to a hundred thousand orangemen are due to march through belfast to mark the battle of the boyne. diplomats in turkey say they're confident, a british engineer and his australian cousin kidnapped by kurdish rebels, will be released unharmed. david from and tanya who holds both british and australian passports, disappeared a week ago. the rebels claim they strayed into kurdish territory without permission. perry from the australian embassy in ankara says, in the past negotiations with the kurds have proved successful. after a period of time, the the people who have been abducted have in fact been released unharmed. we would hope that this will happen er today or as quickly as possible. erm and that when that occurs of course we will er we will provide any necessary consular assistance to the couple concerned. in of course, in close er liaison and conjunction with er the british er embassy here in ankara. the palestine liberation organization says it's had meetings with israel. a statement released this morning confirmed there had been contact but details are yet to emerge. it could be a significant move towards re-engaging the peace process. u n helicopters have blasted targets in mogadishou to try to flush out gunmen loyal to somali warlord general adid. american cobra and black hawf h borg black hawd crafts fired missiles and cannons at sniper posts close to where three italians were killed in an ambush ten days ago. reporter rob says there are many casualties on the ground. witnesses er who've who've been on to us have described seeing five people dead, and at least three wounded who were being rushed to hospital. those were the somalis, let me make that clear. there's no presence of any ground troops in the region whatsoever. i can tell you that that this area is not far from the area that was hit last month, also in helicopter raids, by forces. here detectives in mansfield are hunting a man who attacked a fifteen year old girl near a hospital. it happened yesterday afternoon as the teenager was walking along a footpath through hospital in the town. m p, douglas says, immediate action must be taken to boost staffing levels at the hospital where killer nurse beverley allitt worked. only two consultants are working on ward four at hospital a year after a health authority report called for increased supervision. the transfer tribunal that'll decide the fee for nigel 's transfer from nottingham forest to liverpool, has been set for july the twentieth in walsall. the weather, cloud will build during the morning with a chance of an odd shower by midday. the afternoon will then have some good sunny spells, although a few showers are also possible. today's top temperature seventeen celsius, sixty three fahrenheit. one night in heaven, eleven minutes past eleven, here on this monday morning. can i just borrow you for a few moments? i wonder if anybody could help me? cos i've got something stuck in me loft, and i don't fancy going to find out what it is. about a week or so ago, when i was away from the morning show for a week doing a bit of gardening, decorating, and all those things that we all love to take time off. i mean we we spend all our life at work, then go home and we do more work. but i had to go in the loft. but i hate doing i hate creepy crawlies, i hate spiders and i hate going in the loft. but i had to pop up there and move back all the bits and bobs and the debris and everything. and i shone my torch and i was mortified. because on the joist up right at the top near the side of the house, the brickwork, there's erm i don't well i can't describe them but cocoons or something like that. one is about the size of or the half size of a football. the other is tapered at one end at the bottom, and it's about the size of a tennis ball. and they're just hanging there waiting to presumably do something quite nasty. stevie wonder, for once in my life. just had a call to say, robbo, whatever the things hanging in your loft might be, wait until the autumn, go up with a big stick, and knock them into a carrier bag. i think that's a good idea. actually what i'll do is wait until the autumn, take a big stick, but send andy up there and knock them in the bag. not me. we're off to a fabulous start. over one hundred new l reg already ordered for august the first, and we're taking more orders everyday. why do more private motorists choose to supply their new than any other dealer in town? it could be the high part exchange allowances. it could be the high no trade-in discounts. it could be just the way we treat you as a customer. either way the only way you'll find out what the special quality is, is to visit us. ask us to explain in fine detail, the benefits of option, the most popular new way of driving a new car in britain. this august chances are the best price in town could be the price. , wall to wall . attention motorists. why pay city centre prices on tyres and exhausts? pay low prices at tyres and exhausts on . call nottingham of trent bridge. call and you're in touch with the kitchen and conservatory specialists with probably the highest reputation for quality. we stock an incredible range at permanently discounted prices. and we're more than happy to supply the trade and d i y-er too. call in to discover what real value for money is, on superb conservatories and kitchens. of trent bridge. on . i never thought i'd be saying this but i'm now the proud owner of my very first home. i didn't think i'd ever be able to afford it, but here i am sitting in my own fitted kitchen, in my own centrally heated home. up to now i've always resigned myself to rented accommodation, but it's just not the same is it. always living in somebody else's house. now thanks to housing association, i've got my own totally modern two bedroom home, and at last a big helping hand onto the property ladder. for shared ownership starter homes in nottinghamshire and derbyshire, talk to housing association. two to three bedroomed houses are available now from just ten thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds. to find out more call derby . roads. leisure. fire and rescue. consumer advice. nottinghamshire county council. public transport. education. social services. environment. covering the whole county. tourism. sports. business support. recycling. serving the whole community. nottinghamshire county council. for information about county council services call free on . that's freephone . thank you for your calls about what's up there in my loft. had a call a lady's just left a message on our reception, to say, robbo, be careful, it may be a nest of wasps. oh don't fancy that. just chatting with jude upstairs here at trent. she said, here seal the loft, you know it makes sense. good morning. monday morning trent, it's just gone twenty minutes past eleven. as we begin for the next few weeks on monday mornings with jenny , a day in the life, a day in the life of nottinghamshire county council. and jenny recently was chatting by the riverside at county hall to mick who's the chief executive of nottinghamshire county council, about just exactly what does the council do? it's a very large organization and it provides most of the local government services for the county of nottinghamshire. so we serve a population of over a million people. we provide all of the key services, education, social services, fire, police, highways, libraries. very wide range of activities. so that's a big and complex organization. but as well as providing services, it's also the council which speaks for the whole county. so where do you start? i mean if somebody wanted to find out about erm a house, or child care, where do they turn? erm well in every case, they go to the individual service. i mean eventually of course if somebody is dissatisfied, and they don't believe that they're getting er what they want, then they may well end up speaking to me, or writing to me, but er it's the first place to start is with the individual service. so i if it's education, you start with the school. if it's er social services, you start with the area social services office. erm if it's erm er er a highways matter for instance, we've got new area offices for highways matters. some very big issues for instance, er like, how nottinghamshire responded to the prospect of the closure of mines. er other big issues are how we actually make the best use of european money. but of course you move sim in the same day sometimes, from very big issues like that, to very small issues. somebody actually writing in, as somebody did yesterday, because they want to deliver erm some w some elderly ladies want to deliver some goods into an area wh where tr traffic restrictions exist, and they want some help so that they can actually park their car whilst they unload. here this morning, here on trent. as we have our brand new part of a monday morning for the next few weeks. with a day in the life of the nottinghamshire county council. with jenny reporting. this morning chatting with mick who's the chief executi executive of nottinghamshire county council. and mick chatting to jenny about what we can expect over the next few weeks, as we spend a day in the life. well we're going to er have a look at all at lots of exciting areas. er you're going to look at one of our our gems which is leisure services. nottinghamshire has a national reputation for work that it er does in sports and arts. er and that's because of a good cooperation between the districts and the county council. erm we've er we you'll be looking at education, our biggest service, and a service which we should which is going through some very profound changes at the moment where we're trying to er increase the resources that are within individual schools so that they can make their own decisions erm about er how they best meet the needs of their youngsters. and of course you're gonna look at social services, which is one of the most difficult areas. it's a great county. er within it there's a great city and erm we've er g got a very good future. so er i hope what this er series of interviews will er serve to prove, is both the quality of thinking that's going on about public services, and our very strong commitment to the customers and citizens we serve. the road system, that'll be wonderful. the question begs, you have to say, how come when you've just retarmacked a road that's right, electricity board, gas, erm cable t v company? it's updated hourly. southbound's very busy this morning tailback on the it's the local information. motorway this afternoon around junction twenty five it's the news that keeps you on the move. nottingham road works with lane closures both ways it's trent f ms traffic and travel with help from on road. the driving force that keeps you on the road best. as part of the commit and rescue. consumer advice. nottinghamshire county council. public transport. education. social services. environment. covering the whole county. tourism. sports. business support. recycling. serving the whole community. nottinghamshire county council. for information about county council services call free on . that's freephone . trent f m summer weather with of trent bridge, where the forecast is quality kitchens and conservatories. okay so it's being fairly cloudy this morning around er, well the last half hour or so and it's going to black for a fair while across lunchtime. then those showers dying away er dying away this afternoon for one or two good sunny spells, temperature high today of sixty three degrees fahrenheit. tomorrow more of the same sunshine and showers. trent and robbo, monday, hello in nottingham lunchtime. so it's er it's getting very intriguing apparently because in my loft, i am told by a call to our reception just a few moments ago, it's definitely wasps in my loft. and the gentleman who said that it's quite easy but er they need to handled carefully, but you need to get the council in, who will charge for taking the nest away. now i do fishing and ere we go. the grubs inside the nest, he'll take the nest away and the grubs he can use for fishing. actually sir, thank you very much indeed for your offer. of the currant bun is down five p and for a period so is the price of the mirror newspaper. trent f m of course. again all absolutely free of charge. we don't charge you a penny. no license fee. well here i am in england and hey let me stop right there kiss on my list, on your list, on the shopping list, on everybody's lists midday. elton john and the excellent your song. start of the newark festival gig night tonight. four local bands play in the castle grounds. watch out if you live in and around newark or you're heading out that way, you must get one of their brochures. on page ooh eight or nine, striking photo of breakfast disk jockey this week, andy here from trent. at the , at the , at in newark on the leisure diary. the fam and fire on ninety six point two and ninety six point five, trent f m's bigger music mix. it's midday, i'm phil . detectives investigating the rape of a young woman at a rock festival in nottingham are interviewing some of the thousands of people who attended the event. the woman was attacked in woodland at park on saturday night. police are anxious to trace a courting couple who were seen nearby. abroad three foreign journalists including a briton are reported to have been killed by sniper fire in the somali capital mogadishou. italian radio reports say the others killed were from germany and kenya. the foreign office is warning tourists to avoid eastern turkey after kurdish rebels kidnapped a british engineer and his australian cousin. turkish diplomats say they're hopeful the couple will be freed unharmed after more than a week in captivity. there's new hopes for the stalled middle east peace process as the palestine liberation organization confirms it's held direct talks with the israeli government. a p l o statement says, a series of meetings have taken place with the personal blessing of it's leader yassa arafat. but no details have yet been released. security forces in northern ireland are on full alert ahead of the twelfth of july loyalist celebrations. nine people have been arrested in overnight clashes with police. up to a hundred thousand orangemen are due to march through belfast today to mark the battle of the boyne anniversary. ken reports. nineteen parades are taking place across the province. the largest in belfast, but the most sensitive from a security point of view in other areas, where marching orangemen and their bands will pass close to nationalist districts. this is traditionally the most important day in the marching calendar for the orange order. at demonstrations they'll be backing resolutions, reemphasizing loyalty to the crown and continued opposition to the anglo irish agreement. overnight nine arrests were made across the province when minor trouble flared in several areas. petrol bombs were thrown and a number of vehicles set alight, but no one was injured. new proposals aimed at encouraging parents to take up teaching are expected to be criticized at an education meeting in nottinghamshire today. the government wants parents to take a one year training course which would enable them to teach in primary schools. but linda , a teacher and council adviser on education, says the idea of a so called mum's army is ludicrous. it appals me that anybody in government can considerate it appropriate to use terms like mum's army, with the connotations that that has with captain mainwaring and his bimbling set of idiots. they were hugely amusing on the television, it was a wonderful series, but we're actually talking about the education of children here, not high farce on the telly. detectives in mansfield are hunting a man who attacked a fifteen year old girl near a hospital. it happened yesterday afternoon as the teenager was walking along a footpath through hospital in the town. the transfer tribunal that'll decide the fee for nigel 's transfer from nottingham forrest to liverpool has been set for july the twentieth in walsall. forrest value at three million pounds while liverpool have offered just one and a half million for the england international. the weather, sunny intervals this afternoon but also scattered light showers. the top temperature around seventeen degrees celsius, sixty three fahrenheit, trent f m and be my baby tonight. minutes past midday with gloria. do you remember what your mum and dad used to say to you all those years ago because, those old adages that they used to give you as kids, certainly rings true. at the weekend er i thought, i'll make the most of the er the weather, because saturday we'd got er showers forecast from about lunchtime. and i thought, i'll get in the garden, get some gardening done. so i got up, took the dog a walk, got back in, bolted down my breakfast, and then as soon as i'd finished, on the garden digging. and i'm gonna be like max farnham if i carry on like this, from brookside, with an ulcer, because i thought, oh i wish i hadn't have done that. and then remembered my parents years ago used to say, let it go down. let your food go down. sit at the table don't move. and it's really a good idea, so kids, let it go down. don't rush off just yet if you're having your lunch, stay at the table and erm let it go down. we want to know from you, when only fish and chips will do for you. okay call nottingham . we're gonna play some of the most original calls, all this week on the teatime show, from five. the early evening sequence with tim. we're going to be giving away fish and chip meals, with wine plus a fish called wanda video. good idea this. the top prize is a fish and chip meal. off you go in a limo with champagne. so when it comes round, and the neighbours say, oh where are you going? i'm going to the fish shop. fish and chips, when they will do, only when they will do for you. leave your calls now on nottingham . cars will jenny joins me again this wednesday on the morning show. did you know that? i've been told that before by a hypnotherapist. the lines are dropping, trust me. i can't disagree. eight o nine it was very very accurate. ten out of ten. well i'd say nine out of ten, cos i haven't heard about what turns me on yet. but i'd say that's pretty close. department offers a full range of commercial and industrial waste collection services, in containers and skips. they also clean drains and even do m o ts. for competitive rates and reliable service call on nottingham . past midday. there's going to be an open arm wrestling competition at the public house in chilwell tomorrow. yes. tuesday the thirteenth of july. weigh-in is between weigh-in that's what it says here. quarter past seven until a quarter to eight. all winners will receive a trophy. there will be a charge of fifty pence. all proceeds will be donated to the centre for the mentally handicapped. good on you. thanks for raising the money. it's the public house. hello to the gang there. in chilwell, quarter past seven through until seven forty five tomorrow night for the weigh-in. and there's going to be an open arm wresting contest. for both men and women i think. oh go on why not? to me. well low pollen count over the weekend, the forecast expected to remain low. although some sunny intervals are likely this afternoon, there'll also be one or two mainly light scattered showers. cold last night. it's gonna be cold tonight, clearing and fairly chilly, temperatures down at just forty three. sixty three is the temperature high expected in nottinghamshire this monday afternoon. tuesday dry with sunny spells at first, then clouding as the day continues. trent f m summer weather with a young woman at a rock festival in nottingham's park. the employment secretary tells nottingham bosses, treating staff properly will save money. and the government's so called mum's army proposals for teaching youngsters are expected to come under fire at a meeting in nottingham later today. those stories plus the rest of the main news on trent f m at one. well you might have heard stories about elderly people going out shopping in the middle of the night. or walking around with their clo without their clothes on or putting toast in the kettle. now some of the stories sound quite funny, but it is a serious problem for a lot of people. apparently thirty seven thousand elderly people suffer from alzheimer's disease, and that's just in this region. and in fact it's not just the elderly who are affected, you could be in your forties or your fifties as well. now it can be quite a frightening disease especially for the sufferers families. eventually the person may not even recognize their friends or relatives. so of course it can be quite a shock when you discover that your mum or maybe your aunt has alzheimer's disease. if you or anyone you know is in this position and you need help, support and information, then you can contact the alzheimer's disease society. and if you live in the area, you could get involved with a new branch that's just opened in that region. if you want any more details at all, you just need to pick up the phone and call us here at the trent f m careline on called wonderful world. so it's musical chairs this week on trent. breakfast with andy for gary . me on the morning show robbo in the afternoon all this week. er bigger than the smaller ones still presumably, one until five with jenny. five until nine with tim . all this week the late show nine until one, including that midnight love affair with adrian . one, it's jenny for andy, pass it on. eighty three a big hit for toto, africa and before that take that and their new single pray looking gorgeous as ever and take that the g older they get, the more classy and good looking they get. and don't you agree with that girls? eleven and a half minutes to three o'clock in the afternoon. afternoons from one with jenny for andy all this week till friday. and if you're feeling peckish, well what do you enjoy most as a bit of a takeaway treat? we'd like you to tell us when fish and chips will do for you. call us now on nottingham or derby . we'll play some of the most original calls and give away fish and chip meals mm. with wine plus a fish called wanda videos. all fishy stuff here. the top prize is fish and chips and a limousine with champagne. but you're not allowed to spill any tomato ketchup in the limousine cos they'll be very cross with you. so call trent f m now on nottingham or derby and tell us, from you, when, only fish and chips will do. on trent f m the big mix. from cool cloudy summer ninety three monday twelfth of july playing the who from nineteen sixty eight. now er on the air at five o'clock mister tim with drive at five and the early evening sequence, and we're gonna chat to him in the next thirty minutes because he's been out shopping today and he's spent quite a lot of money on some brand new clothes. find out more very soon. it's jenny for andy , pass it on. afternoon on trent f m. hey we got there we got there. gabrielle, dreams, and the lemonheads, mrs robinson. and i'm very pleased i'm gonna have a bit of a result this afternoon. erm i did give out a plea about two hours ago that i lost my umbrella at the music festival this weekend. a black lethal looking umbrella with a very strange hook on the end. someone's phoned in to say they found it on the grass. oh. in front of the big top there. that's all been cleared away and er thank you very much. they're bringing it in tomorrow so just shows just goes to show that if you put a plea out on the radio, you prayers can be answered sometimes. my umbrella has now been found. i'm a happier person for that. on the air at five o'clock very soon tim driving you home plus the early evening sequence till nine. nine till one for me on the late show adrian . and one till six early hours of tuesday mark . five, we have the latest on the hunt for a rapist who struck in park just yards from a free outdoor music festival. and also nottinghamshire's teachers explain why they think parents shouldn't be allowed to teach in primary schools. for these stories plus the rest of the news, join me ben for the extended bulletin at five on trent f m. delicate. desire and terrence trent d'arby together, delicate oh. well look at the time you see i did promise at one o'clock to make five o'clock arrive earlier, quicker and we got there in style for the past four hours. thank you for you company. it's for all week so i'll see you tomorrow afternoon. tuesday's afternoon show one till five with jenny . stand by tim here after the news update at five o'clock to take you home in style. and ninety six point five, this is trent always playing a bigger music mix. the headlines. a british journalist is killed in somalia. the hunt continuing for a rapist who struck just yards from an outdoor music festival in nottingham. and later why parents shouldn't be allowed back in the classroom. good afternoon i'm ben . aid workers in somalia say today's american led assault on the capital mogadishou which left around seventy dead and two hundred injured, is unforgivable. helicopter gunships fired missiles at what they thought was a command centre of warlord general adid. but innocent civilians are among the casualties. in a violent backlash a number of journalists, including a british photographer, were killed by rampaging mobs. mike from the charity says, the americans have made a terrible mistake. the deaths of er these people today er that's going to totally er isolate er the the somalis from us and erm what happened today i believe was a a unforgivable. er i've seen er a list of twenty seven names today and i have grave doubts about whether this was a command structure of er general adid's. er i think there may have been a mid mistake made today and i hope that this is investigated fully. it's hoped a british engineer and his australian cousin, kidnapped by the kurdish rebels in turkey, could soon be set free. diplomats working for their release say they hope the pair will be out within days if not hours. zena a kurdish representative in london says the two are safe and well in a secret guerilla camp. there is no doubt about there will be no harm whatsoever. er they are er they will be er very well treated, they will be offered the same er facilities as the guerillas have or even better fa better better treatment in some cases. one shouldn't think of they will be er they will be harmed. detectives hunting the rapist who attacked a young woman at a nottingham f music festival at the weekend, have been interviewing some of the thousands of people who attended the event. the woman was grabbed as she walked through woodland in park. danny reports. the victim who's in her twenties had strayed away from the crowds of people attending the music festival, at about ten o'clock on saturday night. detective sergeant andy says she wandered across a nearby golf course. she actually went part of the way with er a male friend who had gone to chaperon her. he'd stayed some three hundred yards away from her when she actually crossed over in the golf course into er a wooded area. where she was attacked by a male er who who pushed her down to the ground, and raped her, and then made off. mhm. we don't know in which direction, but made off from the scene. we've had a good festival this year with no major incidents at all, and this has really spoilt it for everybody. the attacker is thought to have blonde or peroxide shoulder length hair and was wearing a tweed type jacket. police are particularly anxious to trace a courting couple who were seen nearby at the time of the attack. the say it's vital the rapist is caught before he strikes again. m p douglas says immediate action must be taken to boost staffing levels at the hospital where killer nurse beverley allitt worked. only two consultants are working on ward four at hospital a year after a health authority report called for increased supervision. mr. says he's looking into the matter. the problem that is now faced apparently is that there is not a sufficient number of paediatric specialists available to give clinical care. do you think your constituents should be concerned? i think that they are right to want a sufficient number of qualified paediatric specialists in the hospital. they're right to want that. and if the manager of the hospital and i have already dictated a letter to him on this er point and i plan to speak to him today. it's a matter for the management team to address and to address urgently. nottingham crown court has been hearing allegations that a taxi driver raped a lesbian passenger after picking her up from a nightclub. mark has this. the court was told the woman became pregnant and had to have an abortion. twenty five year old zia of denies raping the woman in december nineteen ninety one. she told the court she'd been with two girlfriends to the nightclub in nottingham city centre, where it was a monthly gay night. it was alleged she was raped in the taxi near trent bridge. the court heard the accused told the police that sexual intercourse had taken place with the woman's consent. the trial continues tomorrow. richard branson is accusing british airways of a new round of dirty tricks against his airline virgin atlantic. he is telling the european commission that british airways offers incentives to travel agents to push b a at the expense of other carriers. the cases of five men convicted in nottinghamshire of crimes they claim they didn't commit are being highlighted as part of a campaign organized by human rights group . speakers at a rally this afternoon have called for the release of hundreds of prisoners they claim are innocent. we have this from caroline . anthony from was found guilty of the manslaughter of a seven year old girl in ninety eighty six, and served four and a half years in prison. he was convicted largely on the basis of a confession which he later retracted. since then he's been fighting to prove his innocence. they say i'm not safe with children and that that's wrong. that is very wrong. and i can't live my life with family now and have children without getting hassle from them. i feel very angry you know what i mean. with the way the system is. very very angry cos to tell try and tell the truth and not believes is it's is wrong. bill who campaigns for the human rights group in nottingham says there's too much margin for error in the justice system. the police can't even decide to charge someone, t is the crown prosecution service who must decide whether or not they're going to charge someone. and i think you know, the c p s by investigating the case must always be aware that these people are innocent. then you have the prosecution barrister and there as you know there has been some quite disgraceful behaviour by prosecution barristers, and then the defence council as well. and so this certainly isn't just the police's fault, this is a very big problem. today's protest is designed to draw attention to hundreds of cases of supposed miscarriages of justice. as far as anthony is concerned it's too little too late. it's very important to me to get my life sorted out. i need to get myself back on my feet and forget all this and get it all sorted out and so i can live my life again. that report from caroline . detectives in say a young couple could have vital information on a d fifteen year old girl. the teenager was walking through the grounds of hospital yesterday evening, when a man pulled her to the ground and threatened her. the speaker of the commons will rule today on whether mps who are lloyds names can vote on the finance bill. if she says they can't, the bill which puts into effect the budget, could be wrecked. labour mp peter says that since the bill contains measures to help the battered insurance forty four tory mps who stand to gain shouldn't be allowed to vote. meanwhile former boxer henry cooper has been forced to sell his three lonsdale belts after losing money as one of the lloyds' names who suffered in the insurance market collapse. the belts went under the hammer in a sotheby's auction in canterbury fetching forty two thousand pounds. henry says he's lost the belts but not what they stand for. they'll always be in the record books that i am the only man at any weight who's ever won three lonsdale belts outright. that's there for ever. it is sad but i mean er alright er people have you know some of the names in lloyds they've had to sell everything they've gone skint. i mean thank god i'm not broke i'm not i'm not skint i'm alright thank you. this is just gonna secure my future when i retire. the government's so called mum's army proposals have come under fire at a meeting of teachers and councillors in nottingham this afternoon. they're angry over plans aimed at encouraging parents to take up teaching in primary schools. linda a spokesperson for the county's education advisory committee says, a one year training course isn't enough to turn parents into teachers. just knowing children does not mean that you can teach, that you will be au fait with all the intricacies of the national curriculum, that you have any degree of pedagogical skill. there are so many things involved. obviously people appreciate that children learn things and they can help them, but the question is, why? how? when? what is most appropriate? all of those things need quite a degree of training. now the government has said that erm if these proposals are implemented, parents would be given a years training. graduates straight out of university can do one year postgraduate training to become teachers isn't that that the same sort of thing. no in many respects it isn't. it has taken a hundred and forty years to build a graduate profession. and we as teachers see no reason why that should be cut away overnight. we're not saying that people shouldn't have the opportunity to train to teach. of course they should. but why should women, for women t it will be, become second class citizens, and why should our nursery and infant age children be second class citizens too. the women deserve a right to have a proper training, not a watered down version. and then as sure as night follows day, they will be paid less. the employment secretary david has today told company bosses in nottingham that treating their staff properly will save them money and boost their profits. mister was in the city to prevent and investors in people award to the chemists for encouraging it's staff to take vocational training. since the campaign started bosses say it's saved them fourteen million pounds by reducing staff turnover. and the first deadline for applications for b t three shares expires in a few hours time. analysts say the floatation looks like being a success. more than five million people have registered for part of the government's remaining stake in british telecom. but not all are expected to but. our headlines again. aid workers in somalia say today's american led assault on the capital mogadishou which left around seventy dead and two hundred injured, is unforgivable. in a violent backlash a number of journalists including a british photographer were killed by rampaging mobs. the weather. any showers will soon clear to leave a fine evening, followed by a cold and clear light with light winds. tonight's minimum temperatures then, six celsius, forty three fahrenheit. and aid workers in somalia say today's american led assault on the capital mogadishou which left around seventy dead and two hundred injured is unforgivable. helicopter gunships fired missiles at what they thought was a command centre of warlord general adid. but innocent civilians are among the casualties. in a violent backlash a number of journalists, including a british photographer, were killed by rampaging mobs. mike from the charity says, the americans have made a terrible mistake. are predicting a cut in the level of their council tax. the tory led authority says they've been so successful in collecting the tax, that they've earmarked a hundred and seventy thousand pounds to help cut future bills. this is equal to a six pound fifty cut for band d properties. the weather. any showers will soon clear to leave a fine evening followed by a cold and clear night with light winds. tomorrow morning it'll be dry wit hazy sunshine but increasing cloud is likely to give outbreaks of rain later in the afternoon. tonight maxim er minimum temperature six degrees celsius, that's forty three fahrenheit. cockney phil collins. oh up the apples pears and all that kind of business. genesis who's called land of confusion. trent on a monday night. trent drive tim with you until seven with drive and the early evening sequence seven till nine tonight. back of the radiator. can you just get up and look under your seat for me for a moment? no you've not got it. oh it's disappeared somewhere. eight twenty seven in the morning. mm here's tina. it's wednesday july fourteenth nineteen ninety three. it's eight thirty, i'm ben . police and mps have strongly criticized an old bailey verdict which allowed a teenage vandal to walk free after he'd admitted stabbing a neighbour to death. nineteen year old joseph from south london said he'd been acting in self defence, and he was cleared of murdering bob who'd challenging him with a hammer when he found him slashing car tyres. three soccer fans from in jail in turkey accused of trying to use forged fifty pound notes will learn their fate today. the three say they were issued the cash by a bank and didn't know it was phoney. there are claims that more and more people are turning to begging or prostitution in nottingham because of homelessness. aid agencies are targeting the city as one of several in britain where the number of teenagers sleeping rough is up. youngsters at a nottingham school have become video directors to combat joyriding. pupils at the school want the film, which includes police footage and interviews with the relatives of those killed by joyriders, to be shown nationwide. and multi million pound plans to expand the centre will and and improve nottingham city centre, come under the spotlight today. it's eight thirty one. thank you ben. and the forecast says, although damp and misty at first with some drizzle, the day will become dry. dry skies also and some sunshine here and there. temperature high this afternoon twenty and sixty eight. low twelve that's fifty four. the air is good today and the outlook is fine at first but a seventy five percent chance of rain by mid afternoon. trent f m summer weather with of tren the fee for the twenty six year old will be decided by a transfer tribunal, after the two clubs failed to agree on the players valuation. european cup holders marseille could be thrown out of next seasons competition, because of their involvement in a bribery scandal. along with two players and a club official, president bernard is being accused of trying to bribe a team to throw a match. finally cycling and the tour de france resumes in the alps this morning. spain's miguel wears the leader's yellow jersey. today's sport brought to you in association with 's new supermodel, the . go and see it at of derby. time twenty five to nine. if you are just starting a new job of any kind this morning, your first day, then don't worry, it doesn't matter what you do, the odds on the first two things they'll show you is, where the toilet is, and how to load paper into the photocopier. robin prince of sherwood should i say at the tonight. tribute to ivor novello at the , also robert plant the in birmingham. and jeff hello good morning. hello jeff. drives a red escort, you've got yourself ten pounds on the sticker drive. just call reception from nine this morning on . carnival. rob and the trent hit squad van will be in the parade around the town at midday. ooh. you can join our roadshow on the carnival ground road from two, with andy . saturday in mansfield. is the music with trent f m. good morning, hello, trent f m here. how are you? all right. bearing up i hope under the pressure. and don't forget that this weeks prize draw on the trent f m and draw, is tickets to see bon jovi, live at in september. but that's not all. er you'll get to meet the band in person as well. all you do is send us your name and address to be here please no later than this coming friday afternoon's afternoon show. is the music with trent f m. something special. wednesday fourteenth of july nineteen ninety three. as we say in radio, half way towards the weekend. it's downhill here on in thank goodness. hear erasure, also happy mondays and the shamen. ee's a good, ee's a good this coming saturday night from nine on trent f m. this morning at nine thirty robbo has the morning show. with his special guest jenny talking graphology this morning. and at one the afternoon show from jenny on trent f m. i'm phil . police and mps have strongly criticized a teenage vandal to walk free after he'd admitted stabbing a neighbour to death. nineteen year old joseph from south london said he'd been acting in self defence. and he was cleared of murdering bob who'd challenged him with a hammer when he found him slashing car tyres. his widow diane says there's been a terrible injustice. i saw my husband die in front of my eyes. i was attacked too, and i had to get up next morning and tell my daughter, she didn't have a daddy any more. i had to go christmas. i've had to go through a funeral. and that man has walked free. and i think it is totally disgusting. baroness will today lead an all party campaign in the house of lord, demanding a referendum on the maastricht treaty. it'll be the first time she's voted against the government and her former deputy geoffrey says she's guilty of disloyalty. the number of teachers retiring early is said to have risen dramatically, with a survey showing a threefold increase since nineteen seventy nine. the figures come from the head teachers union which is blaming stress caused by the government's education reforms. pupils at a nottingham school have produced a video aimed at stopping joyriding. children at the school want the film to be distributed nationally to schools and youth centres to get the message across. teacher paul says the video is hard hitting and comprehensive. we're interviewing victims of joyriders. er mothers who've lost children, people who've been hit by joyriders, who've suffered severe head injuries. and this is a very powerful video and has elicited tears in adults and pupils. who've seen it. so it is a very emotional and emotive video. d n a testing is to be used to provide positive identification of the britons who lost their lives in the waco cult siege. relatives of the thirteen u k citizens still unaccounted for including four nottingham are welcoming the move. three soccer fans from who are in jail in turkey accused of trying to use forged fifty pound notes, will learn their fate today. thirty year old robin , thirty two year old paul and twenty three year old darren , say they withdraw the notes from a bank and didn't know they were phoney. robin's mother dorothy says, the four month wait for their trial in a turkish prison has been a huge mental strain. it's very unfair with not knowing it's like anything else. if you know it's going to happen, you can accept it. er but the not knowing is the worst part about it. aid agencies are claiming that increasing homelessness in nottingham is forcing more and more youngsters to turn to begging or even prostitution. the city's one of several being targeted. maureen is manager at house, a day centre for the homeless in nottingham. she says many youngsters who've been brought up in care are often incapable of looking after themselves when they leave. they don't have they life skills to be able to look after themselves. they find it very difficult to manage a budget. on the money that they're on. they find it very difficult to cook for themselves, shop for themselves and generally look after themselves in all the ways that we would accept as being quite normal. police are appealing for witnesses after an armed robbery at a building society in yesterday afternoon. a gunman escaped with an undisclosed amount of cash after threatening an assistant at the building society on road in the town. planners will today be told to see if they can find a way to close a vital nottingham city centre link road without causing major traffic problems. developers want to close street to extend the centre, but as part of the city centre ring road, it carries thousands of vehicles a day. scientists have discovered a possible dinosaur nesting area, and an egg which has survived a hundred and forty five million years intact. a dark patch inside one broken egg could be the remains of an embryo. palaeontologists in denver say the find from the jurassic period is very important. the weather damp and misty at first with drizzle. during the day it'll become mainly dry with brighter skies. today's top temperature, twenty degrees celsius, that's sixty eight fahrenheit. can't sing can't dance. i hate that at nightclubs. i'm just the same. and when you have to walk out across an open room, and everybody's watching, you start to mice. and you think, stop mincing. and you can't. nine o eight, i can't sing, i can't dance, genesis. today is july fourteenth. er you can see the jeff healey band at ,. kelly's heroes at the , and scratch trial by jury in the , wild blue yonder in the and girl's choir at , all part of the festival. who you're supposed to be worry until you get there on time. i really am a worrier. twelve minutes past nine in the morning on trent f m, reasons to be cheerful. and don't forget all this week on drive time with tim, he'll be airing some of the best, when only fish and chips will do stories. each night six people will win free fish and chips with a bottle of wine. and also a fish called wanda on video. on friday's show tim will choose one of this week's winners for the first prize of fish and chips in a limo with champagne. okay. hi and don't i lie a lot. it's nine sixteen, that's gabrielle and dreams. while we're promoting my own show and blowing my own trumpet, er this afternoon jenny is on for my for me this afternoon. and er if you call up the program or fax in for whatever reason, then you can get yourself a free afternoon pack. what? yes. and in that pack you'll have things like, er a picture of my granddad to colour. we don't give you the crayons, only the picture. er also we've got er photographs of the presenters, there's also details of the roadshows for nineteen ninety three. so basically what i'm saying is, get on the blower and call jenny this afternoon from one o'clock. we've broken through the two adrian including the midnight love affair. and at one mark . it's wednesday morning, it's nine twenty and right now here's a real inappropriate song. once again. i'm back tomorrow morning from six a m. hope you can join me for the breakfast show for gary and robbo's next in your day. what can i do for you you said yesterday that i couldn't speak first. you go first. i was just letting the record finish andy. andy. oh. oh that was a pregnant pause was it? i was just letting that record finish. oh very good. r e m, shiny happy people. andy how the devil? rob, fine. now listen. what? were you going to say something then i was just gonna say you've got twenty seconds. you've got twenty seconds today as we play what's it called i keep forgetting the name ? oh no. no. clever dick or really thick? alright are you ready for this? go on. are you've not had a look at my list here ? i can see through your page there . ooh okay. you now have twenty seconds yes. to name yes. garden tools. garden tools. go. rake. one. lawnmower. two. glass of beer. that is in my garden on a sunday. yeah come on er er trowel. three. er hoe. four. erm er the one of the little poky dibbers. yeah oh five. for your herbaceous border. yeah. er and that's yeah. enough. that's it. what about what what about shears, what do you think? she oh shears yeah . yeah. about a kitchen glove, inside out when you have to blow them up. odyssey, inside out, from nineteen eighty two, and debbie harry can see clearly now. mum. the caravan of love. so every now and again, we've mentioned this on the morning show before, every now and again along comes a song that like everybody here at says, oh isn't that just brilliant. this is one of them there songs. and it is just brilliant. andy was saying, what a great song. jenny enthusing about this. as we now play, on the big mix, four non-blondes, question being of course, what's up? cancerians. for aries today on this the fourteenth day of july. you certainly aren't in the mood to suffer fools today. don't switch off don't switch off. for taureans, unexpected guests or visitors may train your temper. i don't understand that but it says that down on my script here, from morning show astrologer peter . er for gemini, another fairly quite day for the most of you. and finally phase number one with cancerians,a rather strange almost mystical day ahead, with thoughts returning from the past. says the seas at blackpool and southport aren't up to scratch, but it's given formby a clean bill of health. chief tourism officer for blackpool barry says work is already under way to improve the sea water there. this year we've er introduced disinfection. and then certainly in two and a half year's time, a hundred and seventy million pounds is being spent by water er putting in a new sewage station. but er unfortunately, this is something that happened in the past and the government have been prosecuted for it, they've been found guilty, but blackpool's name has been dragged way down with them. aid agencies are claiming that increasing homelessness in we say we have nottingham's biggest and brightest music mix. i think just some of the song's already on the morning show have proved that. more to come, with the best, the biggest mix. twenty four hours a day in nottingham. it's eight minutes now past ten, as trent f m plays terrence trent f m and delicate. will be allowed in just about a minute from now to do some air guitarring. oh. and if there is ever such a thing, air drumming. stand by around your place of work in a second. it's eleven minutes past ten with leo and virgo and libra and scorpio. for leo,don't spend the day clock watching or tomorrow you're going to be very much snowed under . for virgo,fate takes a hand today when a delayed or missed connection may lead to a contact that may eventually prove to be very beneficial. libra, if you're prepared o take a chance today, it may be the start of something er fairly prosperous . and finally for scorpio,it's a day to make peace with those you've fallen out with, because it really isn't much fun having all that bad feeling around . okay. air drumming, air guitarring here on trent f m, nineteen seventy seven, eddie and the hotrods, trent plays, do anything ya wanna do. in two parts on central. was it called split at birth? some thing like that with er the two kids that were mixed up at their birth. and wasn't it so sad. my wife, my spaniel and i, we sat there watching that with our handkerchiefs. er it spoilt it a bit when that guy in the glasses came on half way through. trevor mcdonald. as gary and i have mentioned so many times, i wish they'd stop doing that. they're trying to er knock or they were trying to knock news at ten on the head. one of the best suggestions i heard was to er change it to channel four. so you have to news if you want to watch it. brilliant you can er actually dip into that at ten o'clock on channel four. but then you can watch a film and a series on central all the way through, without having to wait from about five minutes to ten, almost, not literally, but almost through till about er five to eleven. of trent on rob 's morning show, join me jenny this monday, the nineteenth of july, when i'll pop down to the urban traffic control centre in nottingham city centre, to switch on all those traffic lights. from you handwriting. it's it's quite unbelievable, i mean you sit here and people go away and say, i can't believe that jenny's just got all that from a page of writing. jenny my guest at about a quarter past eleven. sagittarius, you could spend much of today putting other people's mistakes right, and this will get you down. for capricorn,you could learn a lot about like today from the company of older people . for aquarius,there's an air of misinformation about. maybe you're not getting the full story and all the facts . and finally for pisceans,today finds you at your most creative . in the last twenty four hours, and it will continue to be low in the next twenty four hours. trent f m summer weather with of be a bit of sunshine expected and temperatures back up to near normal at sixty eight degrees fahrenheit. hello, taking tea some time this afternoon. er blonder than the darker ones on the afternoon show all this week for andy . between one and five. early evening sequence, five until nine with tim . check out adrian sounding very good last night, playing the best with our biggest mix of music. in for jenny including the love affair. adrian nighttime at nine. gets under way on saturday the thirtieth of october, and for just seventy five pounds, you can be on board the m s , which'll be your floating hotel for three days of relaxation and entertainment. once in bremen, you can experience one of the largest fairs in northern germany, and sample a marvellous mixture of beers wines and fabulous foods in a great party atmosphere. the trent f m trip to hamburg and bremen. for seventy five pounds can you afford to miss it? call today. for fraud. three soccer fans accused of using forged banknotes, have ben set free by a judge after spending four months in a turkish jail. and detectives are hunting two youths who raped a teenage girl while she was camping in . those stories plus the rest of the main news on trent f m at one. careline's madonna lookalike, here's rachel. not quite rob. well good afternoon. well we've got a few details of some drop in centres this afternoon. and the first one is based at a project called and it's for unemployed people in . that's an area that relied heavily on mining for jobs, and now the coal fields are being shut down, a lot of people are being left without careers. if you're in that situation, you might find a visit to useful. there's details of courses and job opportunities, and perhaps you can get some advice on the type of job that you'd be good for you. if you know the type of this you're looking for, then you can get free use of paper, stamps and a telephone, in fact anything that'll get you that ideal position. the centre can also give advice on benefits, which is obviously really important when you've just lost your job. if you want to know when the centre's open, and what happens on each day, then just give us a ring and we'll pass on the details. and the second drop in centre is based at the newly relaunched project. the idea behind their centre, is to give people with h i v and aids some breathing space. and time to either discuss their illness with people who understand how they feel, and the way that people react, or to just relax and forget all about the fact they're living with it. the team at the project have set up some times when everyone can pop in, as well as a special session on wednesday mornings which is only for women and children. if you're interested in spending some time with people who know what you're going through, or you just want to watch a video, then you don't need to make an appointment. all you need to do is find out when they're open, which you can do by phoning us. to find out more about the drop in centre at for unemployed people, or the sessions at the project, then call us here at the trent f m careline on nottingham . pet shop boys, we've also just played here on trent, queen brilliant seventy four, seven seas of rye. we're waiting for the lost and founds. black and white adult cat wearing a collar found in the area, on the twelfth of july. we've lost a blue budgie in the . a black and white fluffy cat in and a german pointer. which way? that way. a german pointer lost in the area. on that was we have lisa who is the queen of the careline, dancing along to that particular song. it's the doc, mister and sing hallelujah. it's trent at three minutes to one. with annie lennox and dave stewart. a man carrying a bomb's arrested in london. a former sheriff of nottingham has been jailed for fraud. three soccer fans accused of using forged banknotes have been set free by a judge in turkey, and inflation's dropped to its lowest level in thirty years. good afternoon i'm phil . police say they've caught a terrorist red handed on his way to plant a bomb. officers arrested him in north london, close to the scene of last year's staples corner blast. as george reports, when he was seized, he was carrying an explosive device. scotland yard says it was a joint operation between members of the metropolitan police and the security services. just after nine o'clock this morning, a man carrying a bag was challenged, close to a bus stop in north london. when the holdall was opened it was found to contain a bomb. the man was immediately arrested by anti-terrorist officers. he's now being held at paddington green top security police station. a former sheriff of nottingham has been jailed for fraud. was convicted of stealing nearly ten thousand pounds from the city council during a twenty month period. and reports. forty four year old became nottingham's first asian sheriff in may nineteen ninety one, but he was by then already stealing from various arts organizations. he was forced to resign, and eventually convicted of four theft and seven forgery charges. handing down a twelve month sentence, and ordering him to pay twenty thousand pounds costs, judge charles told , his downfall and subsequent exposure was a punishment in itself. has paid back eight thousand pounds of the money he stole. three nottinghamshire soccer fans accused of using forged banknotes by police in turkey, have been freed. the four were arrested after travelling to watch an england world cup game four months ago. ben reports. thirty year old robin , thirty two year old paul and twenty three year old darren , left their homes in to travel to turkey to support england last march. they'd been issued with sterling by lloyds bank. on arrival in turkey, the three became aware of a police campaign to stamp down on counterfeiters. they offered to help, but three of their fifty pound notes were fakes. all were arrested. it was the beginning of a four month ordeal as the painfully slow turkish legal system swung into action. at today's hearing the turkish judge finally allowed the men to go free while continuing the trial. he decided that guilty or not, the time they'd served was enough. robin 's mother dorothy says now, she can't wait to see her son again. unbelievable. you can imagine the relief, excitement, everything just rolled into one. it was fant fantastic. are you celebrating? we will as soon as they get foot here on england's soil, we'll definitely be celebrating. but we will be tonight anyway. i just can't believe it. it's the news that we knew that's all that it could turn out to be, but it was just waiting to hear for it officially and going all through these months. the weight has been been un unreal. now officials are frantically trying to find the men a flight home. meanwhile, it's not clear if they'll get any compensation for their ordeal. detectives are hunting two youths who raped a teenage girl while she was camping in . the attack happened in the early hours of sunday morning, but details have only just been released. detective constable ian says the girl was in a tent when the youths burst in and attacked her. a teenage girl was camping out with a number of friends on field at , which is situated between lane and lane. the group were approached by two males who were not known to them, and the female was asked to enter the tent, and both youths took turns in entering the tent, where a serious sexual assault took place on the female. it is felt that the persons responsible are in fact local, although both youths stated that they were from the nottingham area. it's thought one of the youths is called mike or dave, he's white about five foot ten with light curly hair, and was wearing dark jeans, a dark top and a baseball cap. the other could be called jay, he's of mixed race, about five foot six with dark curly hair, and was wearing dark jeans and a dark bomber jacket. inflation's fallen again to a new thirty year low, and now stands at one point two percent, down from one point three percent. danny reports. during june, sharp falls in the price of seasonal foods like fruit and vegetables, contributed to the heavy slide in inflation. and the start of the high street summer sales, with clothing and household goods being discounted, also played a part. after removing the effects of falling mortgage rates, the underlying inflation rate, the one the treasury watches was unchanged at two point eight percent. it could be the figure will turn out to be the low point of the trend, although if the pound continues to strengthen, that'll be good news for the government's control over inflation. a hard hitting video aimed at stopping joyriding is released today. it's been produced by children at the school in nottingham, and pupils hope the film will be distributed nationally. ian reports. the video's main aim is to persuade young people not to steal cars. teacher paul . this is a very powerful video and has elicited tears in adults and pupils. who've seen it. so it is a very emotional and emotive video. sixteen year old francesca worked on the project. the joyrider that we interviewed, he was fairly upset and he wished that he'd never done it in the first place. i went to climb into the car, through the windscreen . and then the car caught fire the parents didn't have any sympathy for people that joyrided, and they couldn't understand why they did it. the last time i spoke to daniel was on the evening of the accident. from the time the car hit him, he never regained consciousness. pupils emily and sarah . i've always had very strong feelings against joyriding, but i think it's made me more aware of the consequences. i think if the video was made by people of the age that were joyriding, it might deter them more than parents saying, don't do it. the idea was the brainchild o schools liaison officer p c it's message is to think before going into a car. think about the possibilities, think about the consequences, it may not be you, it may be an innocent life. the school needs at least three thousand pounds in sponsorship to distribute the video to other schools, youth clubs and community projects. home secretary michael howard is demanding a report on the case of a teenage vandal who walked free from court after admitting stabbing his neighbour to death. bob died after brandishing a hammer at the youth who was slashing car tyres in south london. clare reports. nineteen year old joe whooped with delight when the old bailey jury acquitted him. high on drink and drugs he stabbed rob through the heart. the music teacher was carrying a mallet, claimed he acted in self defence. mister 's widow diane says the decision's disgusting. the whole justice system stinks. police and politicians are demanding urgent changes in the law. tory backbencher david . i support, up to a point, er vigilantes because i think they're helping to protect society. home secretary michael howard is calling for a report on the case to see if there are any lessons to be learnt. it's claimed more and more young people are turning to prostitution and begging on the streets of nottingham as homelessness continues to increase. a survey of aid agencies has targeted the city, as one of many throughout britain where the number of under twenties sleeping rough is on the up. danny reports. the survey, which has been carried out nationwide, concludes that the homelessness epidemic is no longer confined to london. mark who was born in the capital, has been living rough in nottingham. i came up from london. there was nothing for me going on down there, so i come to nottingham to give it a try. how have you come to be homeless? i got evicted from my last place i was at. so i was been on the streets now for about eight years. nottingham spokesman for housing charity , tim says it's a major problem. we've noticed that the numbers of young homeless people who are coming to see us have risen and risen over the last few months and few years. and it's all a situation that was predicted back in nineteen eighty eight when the government cut benefits for sixteen and seventeen year olds. at the time, voluntary organizations like said, if you take away young people's money, you take away their ability to find housing. what will happen is you'll have homeless people on the streets begging. and that is precisely what has happened. maureen is a manager at house a day centre for the homeless on in nottingham. she says the governments recent care in the community legislation, has forced many people with mental health problems, onto the streets. i think it's made it more difficult for people to be monitored when they're er taking medication. i think that's a problem, they're on medication they're all perfectly fine. but if if their medication's not being taken correctly then obviously that creates problems. it's estimated that up to two hundred and fifty people use house on a daily basis. sport, the draw for the european football competitions has given manchester united a trip to hungary. rangers meet the champions of bulgaria. john reports. united's return begins with a first round tie against , with the opening leg away, while rangers start at against . and welsh face a qualifying tie with cork city. the gunners will face either odens of denmark, or slovenians publicum, with aberdeen also meeting a preliminary round winner. in the uefa cup aston villa have a tough trip to slovan bratislava. norwich are paired with dutch club and hearts who gained a surprise place yesterday, play athletico madrid. the main news again this lunch time. police say they've caught a terrorist red handed on his way to plant a bomb. officers arrested him in north london. a former sheriff of nottingham has been jailed for fraud. was convicted of stealing nearly ten thousand pounds from the city council during a twenty month period. three nottinghamshire soccer fans accused of using forged banknotes by police in turkey have been freed, and inflation's fallen again to one point two percent. the weather, the rest of today's likely to remain rather cloudy with a chance of more rain at any time. the top temperature nineteen degrees celsius, sixty six fahrenheit. f m dancing through the afternoon in style, playing haddaway. gonna say a big hello to j. and this is a big afternoon hello to you from clare. big in nineteen ninety one, colour me badd and all for love. three and a half minutes left of your lunch hour, quick get back to work. it's jenny the 's hits, andy 's slot one till five till friday afternoon on trent f m. and i suppose being predictable about it all, i better play this for you if you're on your way to an aerobics keep fit class some time this afternoon, or this evening. here are the pointer sisters just for you. the opportunity to help investment and to help employment directly, then they should be prepared to cut erm interest rates, as our european partners have been doing. lady thatcher's marked the day of her rebellion against the government by unveiling a plaque to the suffragettes at the commons. she plans to defy the party whip for the first time in her political career. des reports. there was a heavy irony in lady thatcher's fulsome tribute to the women who had campaigned for the vote. without the work they did, i could never have been prime minister, others could never have been cabinet ministers, nor would we have as many women members of parliament as we have today. but she wouldn't explain why she's using her vote against the government in tonight's debate on a referendum on the maastricht treaty. pupils at a nottingham school have turned video police believe the handbrake on the van failed. the driver ran after the vehicle as it gathered speed, tried to warn people on street to get out of the way. no one was injured in the accident. the weather, the rest of today is likely to remain rather cloudy with a chance of more rain at any time. most of this evening and overnight will be dry. it'll turn quite misty with just light winds. meanwhile today's top temperature reaching around nineteen degrees celsius that's sixty six degrees fahrenheit. in the middle of your week, this is wednesday's afternoon show, one till five, it's jenny on trent f m. seven minutes past two playing jonathan butler and his lies from nineteen eighteen seven. so welcome to hour two, the afternoon version of the 's own with those hunky young things world's apart. for saying hunky young things. i'm sorry i know andy wouldn't normally say things like that. but remember i am not andy . alright then nice young things. nicish young things they are. world's apart and their wonderful world. jenny in the afternoon till five making sure that it arrives quicker than ever. in case you're finishing work at five and you're not then i'm sorry about that it hasn't worked out right has it. two thirty we've got rachel with the careline. after three your afternoon tea, and the mystery movie quiz, all here on trent f m. six on trent f m on a wednesday afternoon, your mid week magic. a couple of calls and er one dedication to do now, for another person who's claimed their afternoon show pack full of goodies including programme schedules, photos of the d js. oh maybe signed as well. road show schedules and lots more and granddad goodies as well if you phone up this show for any reason at all, as long as it's a nice reason. er gotta say, hello and a happy third wedding anniversary to john and hazel in . so john and hazel , hello happy wedding anniversary for three years in . lots of love and best wishes. from jill, eric, catherine, andrew and rose who made the call for you. for your new sybil the brand new one there, beyond your wildest dream. half past two on a wednesday afternoon on trent f m as we join rachel at the careline. carol is a member of which is a group that help people with leukaemia and other blood disorders, like hodgkin's disease. and it's usually help with the disease that her members want. not with things like the shopping. mainly it's straight on with the illness. they don't really talk about what's happened in the past, all they're bothered about is what's happening to them at present. we don't give out medical advice, cos we're not qualified for that, but we do sit and listen to them and they talk about different things and what they've got to go through. we can give them booklets, information on you know what to expect is different from other groups because as well as giving people someone to chat to, the can give some people financial help, which carol thinks is really important. at least when the financial stress is alleviated, they can get on then with going to the treatment for leukaemia or a blood disorder, whether it's chemotherapy, radiotherapy whatever. erm they can then feel that their family's being looked after as well, so it helps them not to worry about that side of it. carol became involved with the group because she knew someone with leukaemia and wanted to help. but coping with the disease can be distressing for both the patient and their helper. i think a lot of people do realize that with chemotherapy, you do lose your hair. but it's alright just you know knowing about that, but when it's actually going to happen to you, it's something totally different. you do try and use them through that, and try and make them more confident in themselves, they're you know people do accept this a lot more today, than they used to, erm and you know they needn't feel quite so self conscious. there is some positive news though. in children's leukaemia particularly the cure rate is really high now, so that's wonderful. and the different stages of ages, the cure rates are getting a lot better. so it's not not not all of it is terminal, and not everybody's gonna die with it. are there for everyone with the disease and other blood disorders, and they always need helpers. if you know a little about cancer, feel you could cope with all the emotions involved, and you'd like to give them a hand, then carol would love to hear from you. for more information just call us here at the trent f m careline. it was the culmination of what seems to be an elaborately crafted police operation. it's understood detectives have had the man under surveillance for some time. he was in a car, a blue escort that police stopped by putting a black cab across the road. local people heard armed police shouting at the man, get out get out. he was forced out of the car where he dropped the bag containing the explosives. another man, a social worker got caught up in the melee and was forced out of another car, but police released him when they realized he was not connected. eye witnesses say they've never been so scared in their life. a former sheriff of nottingham has been yet another sign britain's economy is on the mend. inflationary pressures in the british economy are now under extremely good control. we saw on monday, factory gate prices going up less than people expected, today, prices in the shops going up less than people expected. that's good news in itself, but it's also good in that it provides a bedrock on which we can build sustainable recovery of output and and job creation. home secretary michael howard is asking his officials to closely examine the case of a teenage vandal who walked free from court despite admitting he killed a vigilante. the jury found joseph stabbed bob in self defence. he'd been slashing car tyres when approached him with a hammer. ten special telephone lines installed to deal with enquiries about the nottingham based trust have been jammed since they were switched on this morning. a television documentary screened tomorrow will show how thousands of children were shipped abroad during the nineteen fifties and sixties. the weather, the rest of today is likely to remain rather cloudy with a chance of more rain at any time. one with a tent as well for added independence. lulu and her from earlier on this year independence . seven past three welcome to hour three of your 's own. it's jenny for andy in the afternoon's pass it on, and stay right where you are until five o'clock. on trent f m as we play let 'em in. eleven minutes past three o'clock, best time of the afternoon of course, jenny's afternoon tea. well on er monday we had some chocolate cake, yesterday we had scones cream and strawberry jam, and today we find on the desert trolley, just for you as a big treat, all this week at this time every single day on trent f m, a little bit of something nice and naughty, but we don't mind. right then today i think i'm gonna treat you to lovely apricot cheesecake. can you imagine the lovely er biscuit base, the cheesecake, and the apricots and cream all on top. can you picture it now. scratch and sniff your radio as we speak, and to drink we've got some apricot herbal tea. and we're going apricot mad for a wednesday, we are, midweek indeed. so jenny's afternoon tea, if you hang on in there, i will kindly donate a slice of my apricot cheesecake. but you know what they're like they're a bit sloppy to cut. so what makes we have harold pugh harold pugh . harold what's your problem? i've done a terrible thing and i'm being chased right now vic well more or less like you know . yeah. there's some fellas after me right who want me blood serious you know they don't let 'em catch me vic please . harold harold calm yourself down. harold don't let 'em catch me. calm down and tell us all about it . ooh god. harold have you done anything to upset them? well obviously i have it wh what i did was i put a bit of hummus in each of their handbags right oh. and i nicked the centre out of their biros you know. oh. harold you're in a terrible mess and well i wasn't thinking straight there . i know you obviously weren't harold. harold there's nothing i can do for you, but a cadbury's boost slowing things down on a busy wednesday afternoon on trent f m. oh lovely aztec camera, how men are. prince, strollin' and the ramones from nineteen eighty. twenty five minutes past three o'clock. jenny with you till five o'clock and er as usual it's time to play the mystery movie quiz. three clues to a certain film, and i'll tell you the answer in about half an hour's time, just before four o'clock. er testing your cinema and your film knowledge now. clue one. it is a u s film released in black and white in nineteen sixty. so we're going back in time a bit today for the mystery movie quiz. a u s film released in black and with in nineteen sixty. clue two, it's directed by billy wilder, who actually directed so many films. he's the director of this mystery movie was directed by billy wilder. and er clue three. the story basically surrounds an ambitious clerk, and his strange home life, and private life, and work life basically. the story of an ambitious clerk, strange home life that he has with a a lover or two. er so a u s film in black and white released in nineteen sixty, directed by billy wilder, and the story of an ambitious clerk and his strange home life. which are we talking about? which film for wednesday's mystery movie? think about it and i'll compare notes with you very soon. so what makes new these things on miss deborah harry. forty eight years old, she doesn't look it she doesn't sound it looking in good and sounding as good and great as ever. that is i can see clearly now, at twenty eight minutes to four o'clock, midweek, on a muggy wednesday afternoon on trent f m, and your weather for the rest of today, the fourteenth of july. likely to remain cloudy, odd spot of rain in places sometimes. and er most of the evening and overnight dry and cloudy. highest temperature today, a mild nineteen degrees celsius, lowest temperature tonight going down to thirteen. attention, turn the volume up to this very loud. and cough loudly. rod stewart, have i told you lately that i love you. on trent f m the big mix. good afternoon and welcome. midweek magic with jenny till five. afternoons from one. and now repeating the clues to wednesday's mystery movie. love. dedications hello to sue and alan of , who are busy working apparently, from kelly. so from kelly to you two, busy working hopefully you haven't slipped off now. sue and alan of , hello and good afternoon from trent f m. the 's own continues till five o'clock then tim the drive at five till nine. nine till one, on the late show all this week for me mister adrian . including the love affair at twelve, and one till six a m early thursday morning, it's marky mark . four minutes left of this afternoon's 's own. babysitting for andy till friday it's jenny on trent f m playing johnny hates jazz. okay then let's compare notes, let's get this out of the way. did you get the answer right, thinking about it in your place of work or at home? wednesday's mystery movie. the clues, u s film in black an whit released in nineteen sixty, directed by billy wilder, the story of an ambitious clerk and his strange but funny home life. starred jack lemmon and also shirley mcclaine. yes you've guessed it. wednesday's mystery movie, the wonderful, fabulous film, the apartment. if you said, the apartment, congratulations you clever person you. up to the four o'clock news with sniff in the tears, dedicated to me. pointing a gun at er at a ca blue car saying, get out the car. get out the car. another man, a social worker, got caught up in the melee and was forced out of another car, but police released him when they realized he was not connected. a former sheriff of debate on a proposal to have a referendum on the maastricht treaty. lady thatcher will be leading a campaign for the referendum and voting against the tories for the first time ever. special telephone lines installed to deal with enquiries about the nottingham based trust, have been jammed since they were switched on this morning. a television documentary to be screened tomorrow will show how thousands of children were shipped abroad during the fifties and sixties. the ten phone lines have been swamped since they were opened, and social services chairman joan says more calls will follow. i anticipate there will be outcry when people see the drama. and there's gonna be many many many thousands of worried parents whose children were put up for adoption, whose children vanished, brothers and sisters who said, i thought i had a brother. who will be wanting to know more. national heritage secretary peter is being blamed for dropping a bye election clanger after suggesting the tories are resigning to losing christchurch. mister says if they're defeated at the polls, it would hasten a general election which labour could win. the weather, the rest of today is likely to remain rather cloudy with a chance of more rain at any time. most of this evening and overnight will be dry. it'll turn quite misty with just light winds. the outlook for tomorrow, dry at first but a strong chance of rain later. meanwhile today's top temperature, nineteen degrees celsius, sixty six fahrenheit. singing we are happy, on wednesday fourteenth of july, nineteen ninety three, on trent f m and skipping down the yellow brick road of life with deanna carol and her special kind of love. seven minutes past four. hour four of today's 's own. jenny for andy until five o'clock. on my street at the moment. in about two or three weeks they're gonna be digging up every inch of pavement and every inch they can get their hands on. oh dear me. so if i'm late for work one day, you'll know why, i've probably fallen down a hole somewhere. trent f m playing new order, ruined in a day, on this wednesday afternoon the fourteenth of july, eleven minutes past four o'clock. contraflow on the m one between junctions thirty four and thirty five in south yorkshire. in nottingham on the a one, a contraflow near has lane closures on the bypass. in derbyshire, the a fifty two in has a temporary thirty miles per hour speed limit, and temporary traffic lights in operation. driving you home or driving to wherever you want to go to in style on trent f m, more updates later. trent f m traffic and travel with of not tim with the early evening sequence of course, with more news of how you can win fish and chips. nine o'clock on the late show babysitting for me all this week, adrian and then one o'clock till six o'clock during the early hours of thursday the fifteenth of july, to keep you company, it's mark . video hire chart, update you on the new releases, and give you the chance to win one of the top ten films. so listen this friday afternoon and you'll hear the latest video news. with video magic, where even the best films are just one pound for two nights. five hey. thirty six minutes to go. yippee. excellent. right. presents. erm presents. present one is for derek. erm whee! you have to fill in the rest of that and give it back to me. erm erm sure, no problem. i've no idea whether you made a note of your mileages to leeds and back, but please make something up . no, but i know how many miles i know how many miles it is to leeds and back . right. that's not a problem. well please make something up and fill it in. erm and er i'll take that away okay. with me today. okay, i shall fill erm that in now. and then you'll see it again when i finally pay you. . . but not before! and i right. won't be paying you until i've got some money, well, i'm afraid. leeds is well it's actually not leeds it's garforth and then it's leeds and it's back . . erm i don't know. that's twenty five. fifty. call it fifty miles. whatever. write down some appropriate mileages and that's super. erm my next prezzie is sort of more of the same actually. i've got some expenses claim forms cos i thought it would be a good idea to be able to claim expenses, yep. on a form . you know. well, whatever. erm we nearly knocked over simon on our way here. i was driving along t you know t telling david that all the time that that people are on the roads practising how to drive and becoming better drivers there are people like that wally there crossing the roa oh, it's simon . . oops. excellent. i'll tell him about that later. i should have just put my foot down and knocked him over. . it'd've served him right for being such a spaced-out hippy. yes. but erm there you go. do you want to grab a couple of those okay. and then then those are for the derek and clare symbiote. right. erm thank you. erm new version of the spoken cor corpus consent form that has a little space for tape numbers. it's not desperately important but what's a reasonable amount to claim per mile by the way? christ knows. i've got to phone the inland revenue tomorrow and ask them what the maximum yeah. that they'll allow us to claim. they have set amounts. oh, right. what's what er c c's your car? er thirteen hundred. thirteen hundred. righty ho. cos it i gather there's sort of two or yes. three bands. there must be. makes sense. okay. so actually could you make a note on there somewhere, erm sort of underneath the at per mile or something that's it's er . it's very exciting, i can fill one of these in. excellent. whee! i hope you have the receipt. i do have the receipt, yes. otherwise, as it says . on the top, remember to attach all receipts and note all mileages. this claim will not be paid in the absence of the relevant documentation . that do? so there! yes. brilliant. . clapped out v w jetta. i don't think they care how clapped out it is actually. erm david, have some of those. it's not clapped out. it's lovely. it's done one thousand miles . you guys can have those. thank you . right. thank you . ooh excellent. some real paper. erm and then we can have one of these each. ooh. which are erm this is actually me being bored this afternoon. . it might be an idea to just make a note of jeez. what the counties are that we're covering, yeah. and about how many words we want from each one. it basically winds down to about ninety thousand words from each county. . erm mm. but i haven't, because they haven't, broken down scotland, northern ireland and wales into separate counties. yeah. mhm. erm if you add all that up it comes to about three million words. great. three million? yeah. yeah. okay. which is probably the most realistic estimate of what we're collecting. okay. erm although we may be collecting more than that, and we may be collecting less than that. i think three million is a fairly reasonable amount mm. to assume. erm right. don't want to be sort of too enthusiastic about the number of words, just in case it turns out that they can't . oh erm not tyneside or northumberland except for businesses ? yeah. ah. right. that's because maureen erm yeah. has collected in those areas fairly extensively. right. er what you had down and is going to carry on collecting in those areas . what you had down on the previous one was er schools and businesse schools, businesses and something else, i think, that she'd collected no. from. she she's collected certainly schools and from schools, erm the university, right. erm i mean sh she ended up her description of mm. what she'd collected by saying that she hasn't really gone to any it's just that businesses, so er . i was thinking of asking monica if she could record something from the the model car club and yeah. their club meetings. oh that'd be okay i think. is that monica? yes. erm she's alread already asked her dad but right. but they don't have meetings. they they meetings take . place during the evening er as very sort of at the right. okay. it wouldn't work. and we've right. missed the a g m. okay. it was earlier this year. fair enough.. erm anyway i mean that's just a guideline really. erm i'm going to or i've i've started every time a recording comes in making a note of where it's from and what type of recording it is, yeah. and once i've got okay. i've got the word count from each one i'll be able to sort of tot up and tell you when to stop collecting from that area. well we're gonna have north yorkshire sewn up pretty soon. we are. erm which is good. mm. erm then we can start with the rest of yorkshire . i l i gave eddie a load of the bumph excellent. and told him to go away with it and think about what he could do, and er mentioned money to him, and he liked the idea. . erm yes. eddie has a er a very large bank balance but unfortunately it's not his money . not his.. . erm yes, and it's guaranteed by his parents isn't it? mhm. yeah. so er eddie has a vested interest in getting some money from somewhere. yes. erm candidate. the map that's in the back of what they gave us looks as though it might blown up . i've given up on that idea actually. erm i think writing it down's probably just as reasonable . oh no. i mean it doesn't actually oh! need to be very big,we just need some coloured pins . . oh my pen's gone walkies. bugger . here, borrow that. i want my pen. there it is, i've found it. okay. erm no pleasing some people is there . well i no i thought i'd better find it cos otherwise i'd walk off without it and then you'd get my pen, and i . bought this as a company pen. oh right. i've got a receipt and everything . this is a company bic!. . it's true! well we'd return it to the company then wouldn't we? mm. it just might be a bit short of ink when we do . yes. . well the ink belongs to the company too. well we'll use it on company business . . erm where were we? i've completely lost track now, and it's all right. your fault. i'm sorry. so you've given a breakdown of th roughly how much yes. word count we need from each area. yeah. i mean it it's which is very helpful it it goes further south than i thought it did. yeah. erm the the er cos i i wouldn't have in i when i was making the the analysis i w wasn't including hereford and worcester and i wasn't mm. including warwickshire. well what they've done basically is they've drawn erm this list contains all the counties bar erm the sort of tyneside area mm. in their supra-regions erm north right. and midland. mm. yeah. and the midland actually goes down to sort of the top of erm cambridgeshire, oh right. and then slightly south right. and west of there, right. okay. down to the south the south tip of wales pretty much. i mean it's two thirds of the country. yeah. hereford. it's not two thirds of the population but it's two thirds of the . richard . richard's in hereford. yes. warwickshire. isn't sam in warwickshire? er sam is in warwickshire, yes. yes. i'm going to get an address for sam anyway cos i i want to get in touch with him yes. about god. yes. is the captain still there, or is he somewhere else? . the captain is in coventry. right. er i have to ask,now that you've said that . it's a i it's a game design project. okay. it stands for gamer's own design. fine. it's creating a game background in six days . six days. yes. okay. . . what do you do on the seventh day? rest. rest.. not game frantically? no. no. no, no. it was suggested that everybody relax a lot. after staying awake for a hundred and forty four hours . yeah. . in whatever way they felt appropriate. yes. and i'm not going to expand on that cos the tape's running . . good good. good good. actually erm erm just to butt in t here . . who was it? aaron i think was saying yesterday that it would be a good idea to get at least one tape of some erm stoned people. right. because people use . language differently when they're mm. under the affluence. affluence. . indeed. it it's very true . well we know who to talk to don't we? yes. . we'll get you a what? a tape of somebody under the affluence. that's the one, yes.. . after having hear his discourse on the wonders of interchangeable brain chips and the lunar landscape just above the ceiling border in thirty road, i think he would probably be quite a good candidate. . you'll ask him then? . yes. yeah. i right. i had other people in mind as well actually. but er well i i mean i was thinking you know er it's probably a good idea for for erm well i've heard it proposed by people who do these things . that it's a good idea for when people are intending to get stoned in a heavy way to have a baby-sitter, so there's no reason why the baby- sitter couldn't sit there with a tape recorder . . it's true. yes. nobody else in the room is going to stop them. yeah. but the erm the best thing would then be for the when the these people came round again to listen to the tape, . and have power of veto over it. as always. oh yes. yeah, i think they'd probably have to listen ah. yes it's a point. to what they've said because point, they can't be under the affluence when they sign the consent form or . mm. . yeah. erm no, no, no, you are not captain james t kirk of the starship enterprise.. . does he do that too? i don't think he does but i can think of people who would. . erm well, i mean that that would be be erm yeah. the other thing my father said when i was interesting for want of a speaking to him was that erm the place he where he's recording in scotland erm tends to have an unusual vocabulary. yeah. occasionally swear words are interspersed with functional words like it's and mine but i it tends to be very heavily orientated towards the the less nice side of the language up there. that's alright. so i said to him it was fine, yeah. because you know the kind of material we're recording bad language isn't gonna get an appropriate representation, and he's not to worry about it on that yeah. account. but i mean that's entirely reasonable . mm. mm. erm as long as we don't mind transcribing them, and i for one don't. no. i mean i have met people who really objected strongly to transcribing swearing. erm it wouldn't worry me. but i don't . well, yeah. well we're all young enough not to be bothered by it. yes. i mean it's the obviously it's the that's true. older generation that were brought up in under different whatevers, mm. mores or whatever, that that would object to it. and since i swear like a navvy anyway, . it would be hypocritical to object really. . erm erm erm erm. well i've sort of got a note to say who did what this week, so i could tell you what i've done this week and then you could tell me what you've done this week. that would be good . then everybody will know. yeah. erm i've got lots of people collecting tapes on my behalf. the the careers service came up with two tapes which was nice. mike came up with a tape, which was nice. erm he claims the battery ran out before he got to his presentation on the course but i don't necessarily believe him. the battery was flat but i don't think it was a tape and half flat. i think it was . this has been switched on all afternoon and left flat. erm mm. but. my dad in nottinghamshire has nottinghamshire fairly sewn up. which is nice . that's good. that's great. erm he's wandering around collecting . quite happily and enjoying himself thoroughly and not going to school, which i think are are three excellent things. erm and my father-in-common-law in liverpool is also running around frantically recording, but he's getting a limited variety of recordings, mainly educational. erm have you made contact with your human in liverpool? i haven't. i'm hoping he will ring me this afternoon. i this evening. i've left another phone message for him, right. so it's very much a case whether he actually gets in contact with me. good oh. right. erm according to the last reference i looked up, erm merseyside erm is about as big this is an old reference, mm. but erm a tenth of that no sorry, three tenths of that is on the wirral. mm. which erm so that means we need thirty thousand words from the wirral. my parents live in the wirral. and they're taking a tape away on saturday. a machine away on saturday. right. excellent. do you want more tapes for them to take away? i've got ten. i've haven't used any of them. right. erm i mean i can i actually i haven't got all that many left, which i think is sorry. wonderful. okay. er but i mean tell them if they need to buy anything to get the receipts, yeah. then you can claim right. okay. for it. but i i've got to in fact i'll make myself a note here and now, i've got to talk to and i'll get them to send some more tapes. right. we can never have too many. no. ho ho. erm well we could, but if we get too many we can go into business selling them or something. . well i think we have to give them back actually. they've got british national corpus written on them. . yeah. we should probably give them back when we've finished with them . if you do end up with er an extra box of ten or something erm could you label them up for me? yeah. no problem. it's no problem. erm and start the sequence as well. . i decided it was a good idea to write things down rather than depending on the tape because erm i'm not actually going to get round to transcribing the tape quickly enough to use it as minutes. . mm. erm yes well i've got lots of people recording everywhere which is nice. fine. great. erm david, i wrote to margaret at the employment training unit, right. so i hope to hear from her this week. okay. still nothing from the conference office. . but i'm not gonna worry about that until halfway through the week and then i'll write to them. do you have an address for them ? er it'll be er university of york conference office, er heslington hall, right. . y york, heslington, york, university road. y o one five d d. yeah. er erm i know all that actually, so yes. is there a human? no. . not that i know about. you don't know a name. . no. they're all synthetics. i went in . i went in and spoke to one of the secretaries who said she would er she would do it and send us material. right. okey-doke. erm there wasn't a contact, no. okay. erm . this week, in fact tomorrow, i'm going to splash out an unbelievable amount of money and buy a transcription machine. this transcription machine is going to be lent to be derek and clare, who can argue about who has it where and when. erm it'll come with a set of headphones and a little doohickey for er mhm. turning the output into mono because at the moment it's stereo and it'll only come through one earhole. erm cos most of the . oh! actually most these tapes are recorded in stereo aren't they? yes. yes. that's okay then. erm i most of the tapes that i've had in the past have been recorded mono, erm and i've needed a little doohickey to turn the erm output into mono as well cos it's awfully off-putting spending seven and a half hours with the stuff coming in through one ear only. . sensory deprivation. doohickey being the technical term for this is it? yes, and i've no idea how to spell it actually. . i'm gonna have real trouble with that. erm you can transcribe this one. d d double o d double o d double o c k e y. yeah. you sure? how do you spell dooberry then? d o o b e r r y. dooberry. i'm not i'm not erm i don't know. i think it's no, i wouldn't agree with that. it's b r e y. but certainly erm or no . doohickey is d double o is it? yes. d double o h i c good oh! k e y. okay. i've come across that one before . . you sure it wasn't me that wrote it? i'll tell you what,sin since i'll be going along to boston spa we'll check in the dictionary . . they've got in on the shelves there. i think we need soundproofing for these meetings . . at some point it'll be at the university. the oxford english . but it won't be arriving there until they get this well they have the c d rom, they just haven't got it up and running . erm well they haven't got it networked yet but they have the c d rom players there already . yeah. but they ha i i i i went . up and talked to the guy sitting in front of them and he said yes we've got it but we haven't got it on those yet. so they have the c d rom, they just haven't managed to yet. or something.. right. do i take that to mean there's gonna be a online dictionary? yeah. dictionary. there'll be an online computer-based dictionary. how will you be able to get at it? through an ordinary vax account? no. no. no. you've got to go . into the library and go up and sit at the c d rom terminal . right. . i don't think you need a password for it. erm you don't. ah. and er so a bit li it will be a bit like the and you don't need a ticket to get into the library. no you don't. i've got a ticket anyway. i've got a graduate ah. thing. it would be a bit like the library's erm index facility. mm. interesting. so. i hope it'll crash less often than the index . . i doubt it.. . er erm right. that'll be useful resource actually. so yes. erm derek and i will organize ourselves about the transcription machine and mm. okay. fine. that's excellent. erm i'll also be buying erm your keyboard, some tapes and a couple of ribbons. er keyboard five not tapes. tapes. disks. five disks and one ribbon. yes please. and a ribbon. yeah. keyboard, five disks and one ribbon. i already made a note of that actually but yeah. five disks. one ribbon. . okay. i checked and it is forty nine ninety five brilliant. for the keyboard. so i reckon i reckon the total of that will be just over sixty quid . yeah. should be. should be. and i'll check about discounts. right. and possibly buy some stuff myself if that's what necessary to get it over a discount price. i also need some disks. i've done various things on my computer today and i can successfully make ascii files. good. reas reasonable sized ascii files. good. so i reckon i could d do an entire transcription on locoscript,t right. convert the whole thing into an ascii and just pass you the disk . yeah. if you find yourself with a file that's big enough to manipulate but too big to turn into an ascii file, cos it does use a lot of yeah. its processing to turn make a file into an ascii file, don't worry, just give me the original. okay. erm because i've got erm a seven hundred and twenty yeah. k drive . so it should be able to sort it out . as well as the two hundred and seventy two k stupid little three- inch disks. erm . yeah. which i don't approve of in the slightest. erm but i'd prefer to get ascii files yeah. because then i don't have to do anything to them. yeah. . i'll bear that in mind because that will save me start splitting documents up mm. and and transferring each part of the document into ascii files. yeah. erm yeah. whatever's easiest for you right. erm is probably also going to be easier for me. erm we've done mileage and expenses claim forms and given you the bits and pieces. mhm. david doesn't need any packaging any more so i don't have to remind myself to well we've got all that packaging over there get it . if you do need it. right. they sent us nearly a box full of it . that that was why i had a note for myself, but it's not necessary any more cos his parents are coming up . okay. erm somebody on my behalf please, erm preferably clare actually who has a computer, yeah. an amstrad,f for which i can give you my letterhead and formatting and you can then write letters for me. good. i like it. i can yes. need somebody to talk to the d t i, since this was a d t i funded project, why don't we get them to let us record i a meeting or two. . erm parish council. the what's on page in the local paper. public talks and things. aha. and the clerk of the court in york and in other towns. those are the things that occurred to me. okay. they could all be contacted. parish a couple of parish councils in nottinghamshire have been very happy to let my dad record their open meetings. . and i don't see any reason why other parish councils shouldn't either. well there's erm a fulford parish erm er council news sheet keeps turning up here mm. anyway and everybody just takes one look at it and after everybody in the house has taken one look at it it gets thrown in the bin, if it lasts that long. yes. so i'll grab the next one and go along and contact them. right. yes, we get er an osbaldwick one. erm right. right. things everybody else has done i suppose. erm you know just about everything that i've done. i've erm yes. hassled the conference office monday. er ran into tony who's going to talk to his church people about religious meetings there. er did the seminar. eventually. . eventually. okay. how were we to know there were gonna be two hilton hotels in leeds? there's only one in the bloody phone book! . there's j i looked in the phone book, there is only yeah. one. you sent the recorder off to your father as well. sent the r yes, sent the recorder off up to great. scotland, and as i say er said before they got er some taped seminars taped sermons which they can send down. right. erm that's the most obvious things. something that occurred to me this week. erm apparently one of the services that gets offered at thompson travel agents mm. is that er you can go in and you can sit and you can talk to them about what you want for a holiday yeah. and they'll talk back to you about what your best options are and and do a s a sort of interview. yes. so rather than sit at the counter and do it they they have rooms which you can go to and erm get interviewed mm. and talk about all their holiday options and how to tailor a holiday for them. mm. erm it might be worth contacting them as being a professional consultation. right. do it. . right. okay. or somebody do it. it's just erm i'm i w i was just wondering if you wanted to write them a letter first okay, clare can write a letter . i'll i'll be . if if you've got yeah. the time. have you the time erm to write letters ? i do have the time. if you can bring me a er i don't know a disk with your i'll bring you all the disk with all the formats and whatever on it . yeah. and if you tell me who to write to i sh i shall get to it and do it . . i'd i'd like you to write letters for me at least this week cos i'm going to be yes. horrendously busy all week this week . th that's no problem at all that'll be nice. yeah. okay. yeah. erm what i'll do actually seeing as i'm i get easy access to the town centre is i will go in there and see if they will agree to it, and if they won't right. i will say well can i send you some information a letter and that sort of thing ? yeah. i'll do it that way round . yeah. okay. okay.. right. have you got erm paper? or i'd better provide you with some paper. if you could provide me with some paper . all all the bits and pieces. yeah. i'll do that. okay. er stationery. with an e. cos you haven't stopped.. pardon? because you haven't stopped. what? you're not stationary. i'm lost actually. don't bother. it's . erm i was in bed until what i thought was midday today and turned out to be one o'clock . and it was one o'clock.. and i haven't really recovered from the shock. erm this week i've got a positive answer from b r about yes. recording there and that's good . very excited about it. yes. it's brilliant. yeah. i was very pleased about. and i'm meeting with appropriate people in b r on monday to decide when they will let me record. mm. and then it's just a case of providing them with tapes and tape recorders and they will wander off an and do the tapes for us. excellent. so that's good news. erm my father received the recorder and tapes and is enthusiastic about getting recordings for us, and that's all set up for whilst he's in scotland next week . how long's that going to be? erm he's in scotland for about the next month, but i've asked him to do the recordings in the next week. right. then what's gonna happen to the recorder? he'll send it back to me okay. and i will probably , . unless i hear from my contact in liverpool, send it out to manchester. right. next. okey-doke. super. erm did i say this last week? i may have done, i may not have done. when you send them send them parcel class but insure them for the top amount, right. which er it costs one pound something for the insurance. erm it's about three quid to send them parcel post. yeah. that that seems to be the most reasonable way of doing it, rather than sending it registered, yes. which doesn't actually do anything except tell you that it got there. that's right. yeah. . er it does seem crazy to send them all round the country without insuring them. yeah. so i'll see to that. ah. it is one of us. hello. telephone for mr . excuse me. yes. okay. a popular guy. cos i'm hoping cos i've got a in manchester get me some recordings from the public library. right. their meetings hopefully , mm. and their talks. mhm. so that will be some stuff from manchester as well. great. good. super. right. right. erm that was my achievements for the week. well i think that's the the b r thing certainly is a big achievement. erm right. derek and i went to the guildhall. yes. erm and derek was mildly successful erm and got a vague sort of agreement from the deputy returning officer right. about erm information about the upcoming candidates for the council elections. mm. erm and the receptionist was not at all useful . in giving me information about the weddings. erm she wasn't entirely with it. so erm i didn't find out anything about the weddings. right. . . erm so erm i'm going to ask my mother where one gets a marriage license . . don't do that david, she'll go white overnight. i will start from scratch on them. don't you just don't you go the registry office? i really don't know. i think there's just a registry office isn't there ? i i have no idea. i've never done it so i don't no. know. and i don't intend to either. erm yeah, i imagine if you just look under registry office in the phone mm. book there'll be something. yes. mm. the thing i did fail . to do this week was i did actually see my landlord and meant to ask him about recording some tutorials mm. for us. but unfortunately i did remember afterwards, having erm berated myself for this that he is actually based in london at the ah. moment and so is out of our catchment area. right. but i di one of the people that's moving back into my house is a supply teacher in the york area, so i will probably talk to him right. about whether he can get any classroom situations mm. . s do we still need stuff from schools in yes. the york area? yeah. that's good. sue's erm current school sue 's current school have made positive-but-need-to-be-paid-for-it noises, so i'm going to telephone their headmaster. that's the first . time we've come back with a need-to-be-paid isn't it? good heavens. erm actually it's not. the careers service wanted erm to be paid as well. they the careers services actually asked me who if anyone was going to make money out of it, and i said well yes, me. mm. erm . and they said well in that case could we make some money out of it? so i just gave them the statutory amount per tape right. erm and they put it in their christmas fund or something. excellent. erm but i i wasn't actually that surprised that the school er at a school asking to be paid for the tapes because erm they've got to get their money from somewhere that's right. and they ain't getting it off the government at the moment .. they they deserve it to a certain extent. yeah. yeah. erm so i've got to telephone him tomorrow and sort sort of make happy and erm forthright noises about money. right. erm and he may then let sue record a couple of lessons. erm right. i'm ge starting to get a bit upset about not getting letters back from people. i know i shouldn't really cos i shouldn't expect them to come back at all, but it annoys me when . you know three weeks ago i wrote to scarborough college and the buggers haven't written back, even to acknowledge my letter.. it's a it's a bit downheartening. it's not nice. . the one thing i wanted to erm bring up in this meeting, yeah. which you you've obviously had a mind to because you've done the breakdown about the various other regions, mm. is what we're going to do about start collecting in other regions, because we're getting to the stage where we've almost got north yorkshire yeah. wrapped up . i've been hoping to leave it erm and see what happens. and what seems to be happening is that we're gradually remembering people we know in other regions and yes. starting with them as a basis. yeah. erm probably the most fair way to do this erm i mean fair to our friends and relatives in other r parts of the country, is to ask them if they could either send us their local papers or mm. a copy of their local phone book. for which i'll pay. right. erm because those i mean the l a local yellow pages or a local thompsons actually, those are nice and narrow , thompsons are better. yeah. erm and have postcodes in erm are very good ways of getting in touch with local organizations. yeah. erm yeah. i mean i mean i've written a letter to my cousins in south wales asking them if they can point me at any places that might record, but i'll actually make the contacts . you've you've done south wales have you? well i haven't i wouldn't say i've done it, i've just asked them to make you've made a contact in south wales. asked them to make a contact. i mean but by all means okay. make more contacts. yep. i can do. i don't think we have a problem we're not gonna not gonna have a problem with places getting asked twice. mm. erm i don't right. think that's going to be a problem at all. i will try and get something like that brought up from north wales right. at the beginning of next term because i know somebody in north wales at the moment . right. i've i've written to a friend in in anglesey mm. as well erm but i mean if those come to anything at all they'll only come t gonna come to something fairly local aren't they. yeah. on anglesey and in pembroke. right. pembrokeshire. so you know wales is a big cou big well it's not a big country at all but it's big compared to a county, so yeah. that was a positive response by the way from scotland good. and that my parents have the thing, it arrived thursday morning, good good. and er they're making recordings. they've got in touch with the three people that they've got at yes. schools and they'll they probably won't manage anything in the next week because the schools are going on holiday at yeah. the end of the week, yeah. but they will be quite happy to make recordings er and so that's three different schools in the west of scotland. excellent. when's the first consignment of scottish tapes? erm don't know. don't know when they're coming. but right. anyway, erm there will be tapes on the way and they're consulting with other people too,so. right. when actually i should probably mention this. when tapes come into me i have a listen to the beginning and end of them all to sort of see what sort of quality they are right. erm and also to try and work out which speakers are which . so that i can check that against the form and get the form right. back to people if i have a problem with it. erm where i find i can't understand the regional accent i'm going to give them back to the person who recorded them . and say here, you transcribe this. . so i've got a feeling you're going to end up transcribing a lot of the north of the border stuff. i don't think so. but anyway. well. no problem. i can do that . erm it's only four hundred thousand words. the younger the people get, i find that not wanting to be erm whatever, regionalist or anything like that, but i find that or ageist, but the younger people get the more problem i have with their accents. yes. erm and the further west in scotland and the younger they get the more problem i have with their accents . . right. i don't know why this should be. okay. erm but it's true. i mean one of getting round that is erm for derek and i to transcribe them because then it's fairly easy for me to turn round and say listen to this. what did he say ?. yes. yes. so that'll be yeah. one way of working that . right. erm i mean that sounds seems quite reasonable to me. erm it also means that in the case of tapes that have come from your parents you're more likely to know one or two of the speakers and therefore have a less difficult time sorting out which one of these twelve actually speakers is this i person on the list . i i can think of a i can think of a few th of them who are going to be completely incomprehensible to you . good. you can have all of those. . and welcome. we don't mind at all.. . erm yeah. i mean er i'll i'll still need them to come to me for er entering yeah. into the books and everything yeah. no problem. but then you can have them back. . erm i don't know if i gave you, and if i didn't i need to,the things that i've called recordings logs, that are different than meeting logs. yes. you can you get people to fill or f do yourself fill those in rather than the meeting logs? right. i was i was because filling up my supply of each. yeah. erm erm unless it's actually a meeting that you're recording use the other things cos they're just they've got bigger spaces for writing down what people's first words were and stuff like that, right. erm and i just find them easier to cope with. i'm gonna check with whether we actually need to fill in a meeting log for every recording situation , mm. or whether some kind of statement about who's there and what they're doing is enough. mhm. cos i think these meeting logs are a pain in the neck cos they've got the you know the boxes are about this big and you need to be a spider to write in them. . and a small one at that. erm and th the bit for notes isn't and we wouldn't want any spiders around would we? big enough. no we wouldn't want any spiders around. . erm moving swiftly along. that's speciesist that is. pardon? specieism. yes. speciesist. speciesist. you're discriminating yes. against them on the grounds that they're they're crawly little things. . that they're th no,th i'm not i'm discriminating o against them on the grounds that they have legs that do that. that's what i i've thought about it for a long . time and that's what i find horrific about spiders, crabs, all most crustacea in fact. erm yellow centipedes,erm . and if anybody comes up behind me and does that i scream and elbow . . it's true. . empirically tested. just ask spike. . erm all those present have been warned.. . right. yes. so don't bother. erm erm erm erm. i seemed to have worked my way down to the bottom of my list. erm congratulations. thank you.. . it wasn't a very full list cos erm er it didn't occur to me until about seven o'clock this evening that i had to go out quite soon and then i just ran around frantically doing things . you thought it was still six didn't you? w erm no really. well it was still light so it hadn't di i didn't really realize how late it was getting. er i was still slobbing around in my dressing-gown and you know yesterday's clothes and so i i i thought i'd better get up and do stuff. . erm yeah. so i'm i'm a bit unprepared, but that's everything i think that i have to say. right. can we go through unless anybody else has anything to say? no. right. can we go through erm what we're going to do this week so i can make a note of it so i'll know this week, rather than last week when i didn't so i didn't. now does anybody know . shorthand? not that anybody else but myself could read back. er i don't know shorthand but i thought y somebody who did know shorthand would probably have a less hard time than i do writing down notes . . erm but it probably wouldn't make much difference. erm i i've learnt the pitman school but to a basic level and a long time ago and a lot of it is now forgotten.. fine. not a problem. erm okay. what are we gonna do this week? i'll write it down your names. . underneath them i'll write down what to do. oh. you don't need one for me. another another point . don't i? oh. no, you're you're off limits this week aren't you? another point about erm what we did this week, we went down to the guildhall. i mentioned that. . yes. yeah. david was saying . mhm. right. this week. erm after my meeting on monday i shall hopefully start recording at b r. and i will continue to pursue trying to get a contact with clive in liverpool and probably have the tape recorder and tapes returned from my father. right. which i will then turn around and put to good use,most probably in manchester. if you can let me know who you want me to write to or give me a source book to start yes. writing letters from i will also start on the letter writing for you. okay. and i will go into the travel agents in town. thomas cook's. thomas cook. that's the these people who apparently do con consultations on where are they? individual holidays. are they the ones that are they're right se behind beside the royal bank on the corner . the royal bank. yeah. thought so. . and i will see if i can get erm a designer interview holiday consultation taped from them. right. okay. do they have with an e or not? cook. er no, without. er no, cook. there's no e there. okay. it looks wrong, somehow. doesn't matter. i don't care. that's the way they do it. how they spell their name. er what are you going to do this week? transcription work. we hope. erm we hope, yes. probably not till till towards the end of the week. erm whatever. erm i've still got make suggestions for people i can go out and hassle in the first couple of days of the week. because i yeah. until the conference office say yea or nay, there's nothing i can do literally there. mm. until any of the other ones bear fruit, because the guildhall i can't get anything on the elections till april the sixth, erm i can't get anything from the scottish tapes until they start arriving, erm whatever. so all my sources are in progress but right. nothing's about to turn up. so suggest something and i can go some how about getting some tapes not in north yorkshire perhaps? yeah. driving over to leeds or something if we if there's anybody we can contact over there? erm it's making the initial contacts that's the problem. erm i'm i'm in two minds as to whether it's best to always write first or to to phone first whenever possible. i think it's probably best er probably good to phone first but i'm erm worried about phone bills, right. and how to deal them. phone calls made from non-local phone calls in fact local c phone calls as well made from my house can be made directly onto my business mercury account. erm i've got a mercury account at home and i've got it set up so that after the mercury number you type in a user code, and one of my user codes is for the business. mm. so. i'm quite amenable to people coming over and using my phone for making business-related phone calls. erm particularly alright then. if those people also supply me with never-ending cups of tea and coffee while they're there. . . cos that's what i live on during the day is never-ending supplies of tea and coffee. well i don't have any problem with going out. how about i could i could go down and just go to some places in hull on spec. mm. go into the university and see if there're there are any conferences there that i can ask. because that's not something we want to go through their conference office for if we only want to do a meeting, mm. something we'd just ask the people who are organizing the conference. erm i could go out to harrogate and see if there's anything on the conference centre there, mm. or phone the conference centre . the the thing is yeah, i mean anything rather than travelling, telephone, because you have to run up an awful lot of telephone calls before it's worth driving over and doing it yeah. in person. and the the time involved in driving over and then wandering around the city is . yes but if i'm doing nothing else monday. erm you know. yeah but if you could be doing other things, like phoning yeah. fair enough. f forty places yeah. rather than or phoning twenty places yeah. rather than visiting three. okay. erm i i was suggesting to clare and david that wherever we do know people who don't live in this region we could get those people to, at my expense, send us a copy of their local thompson directory,which is an excellent resource for getting in touch with local businesses and other organizations. but i mean it's a subset of the things that appear in yellow pages and also contains all the postcodes we're ever going to need to to use. okay. so anyone that anybody knows who lives anywhere, . get them to send their local thompson . . erm and i'll refund the cost. . i mean i d i dunno actually. is it possible to phone i imagine it's possible to phone b t and get them to send erm directories. yes. it is possible. who does thompsons? is it b t? erm no. no. i think thompsons is . thompsons. but oh. yes, thompsons are separate. there'll be a thompsons yes. . erm you can there's a list at the back of the yellow pages on on yellow pages and phone books . for for f yellow pages. yeah. erm they're all up in the library. i don't know if the thompsons are in the library. mm. they might be. but it it's inconvenient to go to the library, write down lots of addresses and then come away again. i'd like to actually have them on hand. erm you can't afford them. i can't afford yellow pageses or phone books, but thompsons might be a different matter. they might be cheaper cos yes. they're smaller. erm but there's more of them. also well here's another thing. anybody we know, can we get them to send last year's yellow pages and thompsons, which won't yeah. cost them anything except for postage and and won't therefore cost us anything but postage? yeah. that's . that's a good idea actually. let's do that . . yeah. yeah. erm right. we don't really need to confer on who we're asking because i i'm i don't think if we get duplicate last year's yellow pages it's going to be such a problem. i mean we'll have a spare one, yes. oh yeah! i mean what a hassle. we'll have to take them down the recycling. . right. okay. you know. whoa! erm in that case i can spend monday h er making phone calls yeah. er around probably west yorkshire. i'll take down numbers i'll go to the library and take down num phone numbers and call places in the afternoon. and i right. can hassle anybody who still around for phone directories and so on. mm. do you have a touch-tone phone here? yeah. . beep-beep-beep-beep-beep. it it's actually bee-bee-bee-bee-beep? in that case i can give you my mercury my business mercury number and you can make phone calls on the company from here. but only if i really really trust you.. us. yeah. who you m buy a used car from this man ? i do get a fully itemized bill. . yeah. and i've i'm i have no compunctions , yeah. s as spike knows, about phoning places that i where i don't recognize the number and asking them who the fuck they are and when he called them .. . . well the only one that you have to worry about with me is if it it's a twenty-five-minute o eight nine eight .. er twenty-five-minute call to the states or something . transatlantic yeah . just don't do it on my account. erm oh it's alright, they don't cost too much. would that apply to me as well? what ? because there's have you got a touch-tone phone? no, but i was thinking of using this one here. yeah. because there's a few sort of non-local calls i could make to get yeah. phone directories sent . business calls, do it on the mercury account. i mean yeah i'll i'll give you the er no i don't think mercury account . that's probably more sensible than having people come round to use my phone as well. erm it doesn't depend on me being in. erm erm i did and try and use . i don't know it. i'll have to ah. right. go home and find it out . erm did try and erm use it when i first rang margaret , yes. er but i couldn't get it to work. it was a local call. aha. you need to put the s t d code in for a local call . oh right. that would explain it. you press the mercury button, wait for it to finish then o nine o four boo-boo-boo-boom. yes . it'll mercury are only supposed to be for non-local calls. ah. right. but in fact it doesn't cost any more to . erm dial the local s t d code and then use that call d do the call on the s t d code. right. and then it appears on the mercury bill. ah. as if by magic . so as if by magic. puff! there it is!. yes. . you wouldn't believe the things that turn up on our bill. you really wouldn't. erm i didn't when i first saw it. spike spike didn't spike didn't know why it wouldn't work. erm right, well, that's why. right. fair enough. yes. right. since i've got to write to captain andrew anyway i will get hold of addresses of people er like sam in warwickshire. right. a useful contact. where is captain andrew? war er c coventry . coventry. he also will therefore be a useful contact . yes. erm if you've lost your . you want his voice on tape?. not necessarily. but but he knows people i'm sure . also he's in the process of setting up a business. he is in fact . he is. any any part of that is a legitimate erm recording scenario. you know anything anything yeah. where he talks to people about setting up his business is a legitimate thing to record. and since he's the one initiating the meetings all we have to do is get his consent to erm the her his s signature, and the other people's sort of mm. and his verb okay. erm. alright. some time has passed, for the benefit of the tape. . thank you. erm er so far my list of what we're going to do this week includes for derek erm fi tracking down non-local copies of yellow pages by phoning people and hassling people who are about to go home. right. erm i shall phone the harrogate conference centre since they have a big and er quite famous conference centre. if i can get hold of the erm the name if i can remember the name. there is a conference centre somewhere out in the wilds of nowhere in derbyshire which i drove past coming back from buxton. if you phone in t erm the talking yellow pages and say i need a conference centre in derbyshire, they'll probably tell you that one . talking yellow pages? yeah, it's erm it's not one nine two, it's it's something different. erm you can phone them up and ask them for a yellow pages listing and they and they'll give at random a listing from the yellow pages in whatever area you ask for. you can't ask for a specific taxi company or ah right, okay. anything like that, but you can say can you just tell me the name of two taxis? the number of two taxi companies in this area? and they will . or you or you could ask for the the number of all the conference centres in i want a i want a remote conference centre in derbyshire please. right. one that's not in a town. talking i shall try the talking yellow pages. . it it it really was, it was the middle of nowhere and we drove by it and it's a conference c conference centre? er and but that would be conference material from derbyshire, if we could yeah. could get that. . and since we don't seem to have any recordings yet from derbyshire. no. is erm where's doncaster? what county is doncaster in ? doncaster's south yorkshire. is it? right. okay. i have a friend in doncaster. but erm yeah i don't know anybody in derbyshire. nobody lives there do they? er lots of people live in the peak district. b r have yeah but nobody we know. cumbria. the section of b r that i work for dave . most directly and and . i'm sorry, say again? the particular section of b r yes. that i work for erm being the q s has its main headquarters in derbyshire, so it's just possible i may be able to get some business contacts in derbyshire . that would be good. i'll see what i can do. that would be very good. i can hassle for business contacts in these areas at conferences as soon as i get to a conference. yeah. basically any conference lets us gets get lots more business contacts. right. i think i'll i'll not wait for er if nothing comes in the post tomorrow i won't wait for the conference centre to get in touch with me, i'll write to them tomorrow and drop it in . how about ph how about phoning them? oh you'll dro if you write to i if you write to them and drop it in that's fine then . mm. yeah. cos if i since you've already contacted them in person, erm phoning them's not going to you know reassure them that we're a bona fide company yeah. erm in quite the way that sending them a letter on headed notepaper is. okay.. plus the fact you don't have a n er contact name so it's going to be more difficult to get connected to anyone . yes. yes i'll just end up talking to a secretary whereas something mm. will be plonked on somebody's well desk at some point if i write . if you end up going to the office and it's the same layout as it it it was and the same people there, aha. it was the secretary on there was only the one secretary in the office when i went in but there are two desks, one on the left and one on the right, and it's the one at the one on the right. right. that was who was dealing with when i okay. went in there. okey-doke. erm. i shall also write to the captain for addresses and and businesses and if he can help us and so forth. right. are you going to erm telephone the hull conference centre as well? erm i don't know if there's a conference centre but there's a university. . i'll phone hull uni then. i used to have a friend at hull university but we're doing this a year too late. he's graduated. ah! my ex head of department's wife used to teach at hull university. we're not getting into tenuous connections here, but! . no no, i mean well okay. . er she's also somebody in my department so right. used to teach there and she'd probably know the right person to write to. or to telephone. i'll ask her and then get back to one of you two to actually do the letter contact. erm nick's mother erm is in the psychology department at nottingham. . little nick? yes. nick . . i've never heard his surname, he's just little nick as far as i'm concerned . okay. little nick. erm i'll have to phone nick tonight to see if the captain has a phone number now rather than just an address cos if i can phone him it'll be a lot easier. have you spoken to whit about the ? yes. is it this week or next week ? i s it's next week cos he's home this week. yes. erm if the message got passed yes. on erm i mentioned it to him last week er last night actually. yes. erm he he he does re remember as far as i i can tell. mm. but er basically the message didn't get passed on to him when i left it er the last time and he then did the tour monday not knowing that we could have been recording it because ah. nobody'd told him, and then when i got in touch with him erm he said no nobody had told him about it. so and he's doing one er not tomorrow but in a week's time and will be perfectly happy to record it. good. good good. so erm i'll go along and be well actually i'll get him to do that and instead of being bored about the for forty five minutes or whatever i you can be bored about it when you type the tape. yeah. but i i that way i only have to hear it once. yeah. er and i can i can go and er i can wendy! . i can go round i just spent three hours last night talking to him and i've i've had enough for the week that's all. i can't do it now, i've already done the tour. i'm sorry,i i took the cowards's option last night. instead of being lured up to whit's room with you and erm other people . last night i said derek let's go home .. . well it was okay cos aaron was there, but whit and aaron had a bit of a er an argument at one point , oh. and it was a pain cos when doesn't whit have an argument? what were well they arguing about this time? well they were being whit was being unpleasant about aaron, which is calls made from non-local phone calls in fact local c phone calls as whit t to you know to make comments yes. about his appearance or whatever. but it was because aaron said a mildly humorous comment about somebody in one of whit's photos who turned out to be one of whit's very good friends. and er well so what? she does look strange cos she's got bright white hair and purple lipstick on.. oh right. sorry, but it's true!. . erm yeah. that's getting off the subject a bit but never mind. okay. anyway yes, whit's going to us at some stage and i will wander round town while he's doing his talk and then transcribe it right. so i only have to once . can erm one of you look in this week's advertiser, and any sort of talks and things that are on this week if they've got a phone number to contact, give them a buzz and see if they mind us recording it. derek? there are some talks happening this week. is it it's the advertiser that have the what's on section. that was it. erm unfortunately that's last week's. i'll check our our this week's ones cos they'll be lying around. right. okey-doke. erm excuse me while i find our papers. it's meanwhile. no good for me because i'm working in the evening but minster f m has a a list of what's on that night every night. mm. erm i don't know when they they they play it about quarter past er no about quarter to seven mm. and then they i think they play it earlier than that as well. that's . erm it's best to find them ahead of time because that gives us a chance to contact them beforehand. yes. yes. i think it's unfair to anybody to show up with a tape recorder and ask them on the spot cos it puts them on the spot. yes. erm i don't like putting people on the spot if i can possibly no. avoid it cos you know you lose goodwill that way. erm erm but but the advertiser does have quite a lot of what's onies. what's onies? what the hell's a what's ony? . erm . sorry. just for the record , yes. is that i e s or i s? i have not the remotest idea david . . i'm so sorry. . it's probably e s actually cos it was it was me trying trying to find a plural for ah. what's on.. i i th i thought i thought it was i s actually from the way you said it the first time, but that was just a guess. no comment. not a guess it's well how do you say erm the plural of bus? buses. buses, yeah. sounds like an i s . busi. octopodes. . octopodes,yes. it's the correct plural of octopus. eddie found it out one time. it thought it was octopi. you just went past it. i did? yeah. yes. you just did it again. . it's on a left-hand page,as you're looking at it. minster f m. saturday t v. sponsored by. no, you you what's on. there you go. that's right. okay. we've missed thursday, friday, saturday and sunday haven't we? yes. yes. but we've got monday tuesday and wednesday monday this week. quartermains terms, grand opera house. er york healing group meet at the unitarian church saint saviours gate . that would be . interesting. yes. oh w are there phone numbers for any of these? er nope. hang on. well they're probably in the in the phone book right? there are addresses for them. none of none of none of those have phone numbers but all of them have some sort of address. salvation army home league, gillygate. what's one of those? don't know. ouse harmony barbershop chorus practice night go on. can we get singing?. no. no. it's not a lot of use is it really? . it's a bit scripted. . contemporary and creative dance. sequence dancing. callanetics. york buthal kan karate club. no. body conditioning stamina and self-defence training . oh yeah, an hour of .. ai! how do you spell ? . low impact aerobics. what the heck are low impact that's step . that's where you don't jump around. that's step probably. you walk around stepping. yeah. . it it's where you don't have to wear body armour. . boom! high impact aerobics. . it's no it's it's it's a different name for karate . it's aerobics for fat people, ah. cos it's very bad for fat people to jump up and down, erm jump around, yeah because we have an awful problem with impact when we land again . new breed of . i have terrible trouble with my feet. . that's a play. right. high tech history, a r c saint saviourgate. get that one! yes. the a r c. yeah. get that. that that'll be a talk. also i noticed there was something by martin . a talk from rags to riches . er neal . neal , yeah. memories of a removal man by neal , yeah! york after eight club, enterprises seventeen that'll be perfect. lane. i know where is . yeah are in the phone book as well. yeah. under g for . . . and he probably he's he's quite a sort of er he supports local so tuesday evening's gonna be busy. young businesses and things like that, so oh no problem then. he he'd probably be quite yeah. happy about it. york c v s training workshops. erm stop smoking group, clifton health centre . if they agreed that would probably be good. ted heath music appreciation society. i worried about that when i read it. . balan oh wow! i wonder what this one's gonna be. balance and harmony, priory street centre. . that's all it says. om. it's probably two hours of going om. . it's not going to be interesting . be a meditation group . yeah. quite easy to transcribe . which wouldn't be easy to though remember y it it's three os and two ms because it's om om . om. . om. because the ms or in the case of some movies om .. i'm not that. you you didn't join in the harmony. erm from dark crystal yes. where they come up and om in harmony yes. and it's quite spectacularly silly . yes. i know. er er it's ac it occurred to me that what what you were about to say cos whit om. spent a long time showing me his dark crystal om. book last night. . er vale of york conservation volunteers. but that's going to be outdoors. erm er . and we wouldn't want to get the tape recorders wet would we? . no boys and girls . cos it's summertime now volleyball. so it's gonna piss it down any minute, right? it's now b s t. the the the wettest month in york is april. well, whoopee! . . yeah we're about due for another flood. i like it when when wh it floods in town and you can go down and watch foreigners standing looking at the roofs of their cars floating down the ouse and you think yeah!. . you're cruel sometimes. i was very yeah, i just like cashing in on other people's misery . oh. ooh. wednesday. namibia. a desert country by the sea. a talk by doctor tom for british heart foundation. sounds good. folk hall, new earswick. well look, i mean why don't i leave it to you to get in contact with okay. the people in the advertiser whether by having to go there or by . phoning them up. i imagine most of these pl most of these places, if they're organizations, they'll have a phone number in the book . yeah. yes. they do. we've got . erm but definitely try oh! and get the one at . centre for housing policy seminar, social research unit, seminar room, rowntree foundation building . yeah. yeah. erm i mean we could get all of our tal you know all of our sort of public educational informative talks this week if all of those pan out couldn't we? mm. mm. for th for the york area. i i i wonder about these two. what? york twenties and thirties social and activity club weekly meeting,and no, you're not going. . and new! york eighteen plus group. no, you're not going! oh dear! oh dear. now why's that one opened up? is that because fuck-a-fresher week only comes round once a year? . people are getting desperate at this time of year. . could be. i wonder sometimes . oh dear. right. . those two are . well i'll leave that to you, erm and if they need letters written or need to yeah. phone me, i'm in tomorrow and tuesday all day . yeah. there aren't probably it may be easier if i actually do those letters if they want letters. yeah. because derek will be able to say to me look,do a letter to here. right. yeah. well i i'll phone them up. when are you going to be about? erm are you going to be at home at all tomorrow or here at all tomorrow?? erm i'm usually here first thing in the morning and what's first thing?. you know, before nine o'clock. . that kind of first thing. yeah i i usually find myself having just deposited spike at the station at about a quarter past nine and then i'm in town and er able to do things in town. but erm cos mm. i'll i'll get my a disk to you and some right. notepaper and stuff. right. . actually erm but i should probably do that when i can come and see you and show you where it yeah. needs to sit in the printer and things like that erm so you don't you know right. end up fiddling with for hours on end to work out . okay. i i will be home erm i'll be home at my house as opposed to here erm tomorrow afternoon as from about four o'clock i would imagine. right. you're on road. lane. lane. lane? i live literally on the corner as you go out . that's very convenient isn't it? . . it it's the house right on the the left-hand corner just there are you go out . what's i can't picture it, so what's the address? it's thirty eight lane. thirty eight lane. well why don't i pop round tomorrow? sure thing. at the end of if i w wait until the end of the business day, so mm. around five or so. er yeah. between four and five you will definitely find me indoors, and i will be at home. right. okay. well if i say i'll come at five, cos that gives me a chance to do all the sort of phoning yeah. of businesses. great. right. erm okey-doke. . and if you can remember to bring me some headed notepaper as well, so th er i haven't actually yeah i'll bring you some headed notepaper but you shouldn't actually need it except if people want this person is doing this on behalf of. right. erm all the other stuff i've just got a little header set up in the file on right. on a template. yeah. the you know the the little header. mm. i'm going to have some headed notepaper as soon as i can get the laser printer printing out things that i tell it to rather than printing out courier ten. i'm having a bit of trouble with spike's laser printer at work cos it's not a real it it says it's a hewlett-packard two plus but it ain't. oh. mm. so it's actually a panasonic something and i haven't got the printer driver for it. okay . and i can't phone up wordperfect corp and say mm. . can i buy a printer driver for this? because they'll say what's your registration number? they'll say what's your registration number? and i'll say i haven't got one yet because i can't afford to buy er a non-pirate copy of wordperfect until next month. sorry. . mm. but er anyone who feels like making a headed notepaper and getting it laser printed is welcome so to do. alright. well erm well when we've got a company logo we should do that. i've got a company logo. it looks like this. there is a company lob =go. it's dead pretty . lobo? here we go. company lobo.. lobo, yeah. . let's get one of those. . sometimes i feel i could do with one . . yes. aha.. mm. oh it lovely. it's just that it's the it looks sort of erm what we really need er . erm but there there's no the problem is we can't use the can't use the compserve one. er you could you could print one off. erm we'd only need one . for a start erm the typeface we wanted it looks something like that. the type face we wanted isn't on the the whatsit laser printer. i'd also like it in shadow . if at all possible. oh, yeah. er the other thing is so i i it's a standard you know dinky little thing like y you us you use you know the with their little twirly thing and er the you saw the oh no. productions with their little red triangle and dots thing . no i think i think the word is quite adequate actually . yeah. that's great. y fine. the fancy letters the m and the t really need a powerful pack like coreldraw. yeah. which . eddie ! eddie! erm who doesn't have a laser printer. yes, no, but but he can do the but does have coreldraw. he does have coreldraw and erm coreldraw would use p postscript erm which we can import onto the p cs and dump onto the self-service laser printer. erm and a partridge in a pear tree. . i assume you understand what all that means . at the university. . . i know what it means. erm erm well you've got but it does require me going to see eddie. erm i'd like to see eddie cos i didn't get to see him this time or last time . well we could we could arrange to drive over well eddie's going to be and see eddie. yeah eddie is going to be busy the whole time aha. because he's working for his course. he has mm. er course work to do the whole time. but erm i can phone him er have you got his number as well? mm. right, okay. well you could phone him if you mm. wanted. erm and we could say we we need a company logo done. cos i if we said we we needed it in order to get some of this money yeah. that he's going to get some of then erm that might more of an incentive for him to well he might for instance let us come over and and play with coreldraw for an hour in one evening or something like that. how long do you think it would take you to do that on coreldraw? erm our resident coreldraw expert. i could i could do that in an hour. i could d i could do a complete letterhead and just that just that logo as an e p s f that you could stick into wordperfect. mm. ooh. erm right. ooh. ooh. er then all i need to do is to find a printer driver for spike's laser printer at work erm well er if it was e p s f you almost certainly could use . that's true. . . which that isn't. but but the university have wor wordperfect don't they? online. yes. the university have wordperfect yes. on the machines. yes. so this could work couldn't it? could work . yes. okay. it's a cunning plan. it is actually. i have a cunning plan my lord . let's get let's just get it on though. . erm okay let's get eddie erm i i reckon i reckon i could do it in an hour. erm the thing is if we can get that erm and we can al we could also put it on business cards is another thing . mm. i can go and get a run of business cards done at some point. mm. ooh that's something erm else i have to do is find a somebody that'll do cheap photocopying. get like an account with somebody. u w erm i mean it really requires a p c and a copy of coreldraw. erm however i've got a p c. you have a p c. erm but i'd er however i'm running low on memory now . . yes. erm and i can't yet afford a p c. erm mm.. i can't afford a new copy of coreldraw. however i might be able to get erm the copy that i eddie's copy isn't entirely legal erm and i got it for him. i might be able to get another copy of it. . how big is it? i mean is it a massive program? i imagine it'd be quite huge . erm it it was compressed onto six disks. . but that includes three i think three disks were full of erm sample stuff isn't it. clip-art. which we don't need. mm. erm yeah. we don't need any clip-art. erm which means it's on three disks . can it run off the disks? can it run off no. it can't. be because it's compressed. because it's compressed. erm i mean how big but you don't need to keep it. well, how big will that decompress into? erm well the total amount on three disks is what, two meg ? if i have it i'd wanna keep it. you know what i'm like. i haven't got two meg of memory. i've got about a meg and a half. and that that fills up my hard disk. well that aha. so that right. you couldn't use it. it fills it up yeah. too much to be used. right. erm and that's including my on-disk compression thing that that erm oh dear. oh. fiddles around with dear. all sort of crap. right. erm well that actually that's on my disk cos we did have two the the disk partitioned and it's my half of it that's got a meg and a half left. i don't know what spike's half's got left. . but er probably not very much . knowing spike not much. . knowing spike it's probably not much. . however okay. i'll speak to simon. i'll speak to simon erm about borrowing his p c at work. doug has a p c. right. okay. doug has a p c. i will go get doug, see what he's yeah. just see how much space he's got. erm and tell him it's temporary. yeah. and i'll see if i can get a copy of coreldraw. because it will be a lot easier than going over to bradford. erm yeah. although it would be nice to go over to bradford. yes. and it means that we could make changes if we needed to. that's true. yes. er er now, the source was at university which means that he's gone gone home. he's at court, he might not have gone home. not court, erm house. might not have gone home. i thought they were planning to er make term time only. . no idea. i don't know. erm i'll see erm i know that richard has a copy of that and eddie has a copy . mm. i'll see what i can do. right. erm i will buy a copy of it when i have access to a p c. erm erm how much is it? the new one is about two hundred and sixty pounds . for the big one. er a hundred and ninety five for the smaller version which doesn't have a . it's a bit excessive. but it's the best package in existence. mm. they've got it at the law college and i've i've spent some lunchtimes fiddling with it and thinking i want! i want! i want! it's very easy to do pretty things with it. mm. did you did wasn't it coreldraw that you guys used to make the erm badge for our cop two thousand game? erm yes. eddie did that, yes. mm. yes i've still got that somewhere. erm in fact i may even have them be in here. . no they're not. they were really good. doug's p c isn't suitable because the monitor's crap. steer's . p c would possibly get it . in what sense is the monitor crap? er it won't do colour, erm it doesn't need to. it's a black and white logo. it it it it it's it's it's also got a erm er it's got no mouse for the computer. it's anyway steer's might get it running, okay. er but there're some really nifty ones in the chemistry department which cou doug could borrow for an hour and a half of an evening. so. i'm not a fr free in the evening. no. we need it yeah. er when derek when but david's free. but weekend? maybe, yeah. yeah. cos er an hour and a half on a saturday evening. we could manage it. mm. erm we can get a p c if we can do this ourselves i'd really like to . yes. erm cos er i i definitely don't wanna pay you know somebody yeah. like sixty quid just to make a logo that we can do ourselves. yeah. yeah. th there is no w er problem whatsoever about getting a p c which is of suitable capability. right. and we just need doug to be around t well. if erm or if simon can bring one home from work . doug's doug's machine has reasonably high graphics doesn't it? it's not c g a? er no, doug's machine is crap. steer's is quite good as far as i can tell. er erm . i've got a v g a. bloody space. i dunno, i could i could back up and remove wordperfect, which frees about another meg and a half of memory . erm well it it was on it was compressed onto three disks, so i guess it's probably going to be about four meg. mm. well. doug's machine has four and a half meg free. it doesn't need a mouse and it will run on a c g a. erm well, i think it might work then. but i can't guarantee it. suck it and see as my grandmother used to say to me.. indeed. okay, pardon? i'll chase that up this week cos it won't take . what did she use to say? suck it and see. . don't tell that to spike!. . bless him! . erm . moving quickly on. erm okay i've got a list of what derek's gonna do, i've got a list of what clare's gonna do. erm i'm gonna come round tomorrow and bring yeah. some letter writing stuff. and david's gonna convalesce. david's gonna convalesce. david's gonna convalesce. yes. erm it'll be alright i'm sure . i know. you'll be fine. don't worry. erm yes and i'll chase up chase up erm a copy of coreldraw. right. and i'm going to get some tapes to clare and the letter writing stuff, find out about a photocopying account, talk to about more tapes,transcription notes, erm meeting log forms, demographic transcription, and editing of transcription that we do. yeah. gonna write to the university conference office,erm and talk to the head of sue's school or write to the head of sue's school. erm that sounds reasonable. you're going to give us your m mercury account number. mercury account number. oh yes i've got a further list down here. mercury account number, talk to connie erm who used to be at hull. and i'll leave the talking to eddie about coreldraw for yeah. for other people to do. . right. should i phone him up then? no. not yet. not wait until david's erm researched getting a computer in york . cos it would be easi it's a lot easier to do it here. cos i i it takes it would take an entire yeah. evening to go out to keighley. erm er in fact it would take an entire evening to go out to keighley. it's a bloody long way. whereas it's yeah. it's a lot more convenient . could come round here mm. . mm. erm i mean it'll take a while to install . mm. waiting for the program to install. right. well i'll leave that with you to see what what comes out. but i mean in the meantime we're quite happy quite happy carrying with with the silly little letterhead that i've got cos it says yeah. who we are. it's just i'd like something printed . what about the p cs in the p c room in langwith? erm all you need's a vax account. yeah but they don't have very much memory in them. they don't have enough memory in them to load up very much. and you can't put it on c you can't put it if you if you network them you've got hardly any, and even er unnetworked i think they've only got two meg. but you can't do something clever like dump it all onto my scratch quota for example? no. erm okay. ah well. no you can run they're big enough to run a diskful of game but not something that takes more than one disk. erm er okay. right. are we done? i think we are. right. shall we go away then? mhm. erm okay. okay. would you like some toast now darling? yes please. let mummy just watch the news then i think playbus is coming on in a moment. oh no we are gonna watch playbus and then we'll have a bath and then we have to go up to the shops because today is mummy and daddy's wedding anniversary. eh? mummy and daddy's wedding anniversary today. so mummy has to buy daddy a card. is is mummy nursery? no not nursery anniversary. anniversary is like birthday. it's the birthday of when mummy and daddy got married today. me don't? do you? you know the picture of mummy and daddy getting married? mm. with mummy's dress and daddy's suit. big hat? mm. yes well that was seven years ago today. when i get married i'll get a hat. that's right when you get married you have to wear a hat. then you have go with lots and lots of people and have a big party. a scarf. i have to get a scarf. well you can wear a scarf if you want to. so we have you get married. well ladies generally wear a nice dresses. can we have a man? ah well here? there? there? well ladies just don't wear anything there but men wear a tie don't they. like daddy wears a tie. yes will you give me to wear a tie? yes that's right. most people do. and you to eat. and you eat and you have big big dinner. when we give me when we're hungry? mm mm. you get your dinner. that's right. lots. so we'll go and buy daddy a card today. an anniversary card. mummy has bought daddy some nice chocolates to eat and we're going to have a special dinner and then next saturday nanna nanna and del are coming down to look after you yes? and you can spend the evening with nanna and del in this house and mummy and daddy are going out. not no we're going out to have some fun. but i won't cry. no. you won't cry because you're being with nanna and del. yes. yes you will and nanna can read you lots of stories. can't you? mm. that be fun? yes. so maybe nanna will let you watch video. is her all and you can have a cuddle on the sofa with nanna. i don't want to. oh you don't want to have a cuddle? no. i don't want sauce you can do i am get down i am going to miss you. okay. i am going to miss you. okay that's good. but this isn't going to fit look. no it's too big to go in there isn't it? it is. is that one's not too big is it? no that one fits perfectly i want this is not going to have people don't have these in the door. oh no not that one. because that's a big one isn't it? mm. the have for this thing for this one. mm mm. that's right. they don't come out oh no it's gonna rain tonight what's it going to rain for? mm it's going to be raining. oh tomorrow is a nice surprise for you. is it? yes when you're in bed it ann phoned to say to say that she's bringing and ali around to play with you tomorrow afternoon. why? well so that you can all play together. that be good? you can have tea. mm. adem ouch! adem and alea and then on wednesday mm you're going back to nursery go back to nursery? you can see ben at nursery can't you? and then on thursday bill's coming to play with you and you're going to nursery and then on friday you'll see lucy in the day time are you going out? am i going out? oh what when bill comes? mm. no i won't go anywhere. yes and on friday you can see lucy and then leo and russel come home from school and you can play with them for a couple of hours. you can have tea at their house. that be good? i don't want to have ted. ted? i don't want ted. well he's he's a nice man isn't he? he's nice to you isn't he? pardon? what's tea do? yeah you eat your tea don't you? super ted! spotty. spotty. yes and super ted. who's that walking mummy? that's a space rocket isn't it? with super ted. would you like to watch play day then? while we get you some toast? would you like to finish off this cereal first? no. pardon? no you oh look. oh look happy birthday party. mm i do nanna. yes nanna's birthday. we had a little birthday party. and we got oh the party poppers. from your face mm. that's right you have to keep it away from the face because they're dangerous aren't they? mm. that's clever. isn't that a mm it's round isn't it? i can what's round? has we has been you is get is get and you to paint it. oh is it? that's what shape is that? er it's a line. it's a line er no what shape is that? no go and draw the shape on your chalking board. no this side with your chalk. there, draw what's that? what shape is that? erm that's a square. that's a circle. mm that's a circle. that's a very good circle isn't it? oh look! the little boy's cleaning his teeth. oliver why don't you leave sammy alone? you wouldn't like to be chased all over the place the whole time would you? but i like george. no! i said you wouldn't like to be chased all the time i'm the hunter. were you? oliver like to feed the birds with the toast you didn't eat? no i not going to feed them. no i say would you like to feed the birds? erm i want to feed the birds. okay. it's all ready just got to open the door. what you doing? do you want to go outside? mm. well you have to put shoes oh you want to find it. let's go and get your wellies and a big jumper. pardon? well you can find it can't you? go and get your wellingtons. mm. okay. not today. no okay not today. what is this? well it's the fishing net for the goldfish. well when we clean out the er thing with the big fishing net for the pond but it's a small one when we clean out the fish tank. can i? i want erm scotbald erm skateboard. we're only going out to find your er toy that you lost aren't you? put your wellingtons on. mummy get you a jumper to wear. i want to get my skateboard. well you can play with it when you come back here. you don't want me to take it outside do you? yeah. well it's very cold out today. i want to take it today. alright. will you stay here and mummy'll get you a sweater to put on. okay? okay. right you stay down here then. there you are where's oliver going? where's oliver going? he's gonna eat a cup of tea. going to take a cup of tea. there he is cup of tea. there we are. you're not taking this outside because you might lose this. we need these to clean fish don't we? yeah. that's right. skateboard. why do you have to take your skateboard because you can't ride it up the bank can you? mummy! yes! i can't find it. it's here. i can't find it. why? hullo happy anniversary. hello oh my goodness! didn't get you back or anything did i? no we're just running very very very late. oh. hullo sweetheart. what a lovely surprise. thank you. all right? isn't it lovely. keith's in the car. he's got such awful cold has he? yeah and cough again. so i've kept him off for off it's not fair with oliver. erm he's just come down with this rotten old cough and cold again and i was going to take him to the doctor's but then they don't like it giving them anything and i don't like giving him anything so maybe just give him something so it's so cold as well it is. i just concentrate to put the heating on. it's just it's tempting i must admit. you know i thought once or twice about putting it on but mm go enough yeah that a week without one and then no and it is saturday! no saturday! he was coughing so much saturday. he was coughing so much that he made himself sick. whooping cough was it? but i put him on some medicine i got from the chemist and it seems to have calmed it down but his nose is more er hot and cold no! oliver. so er i've got to keep him off school today and see how he goes over the next day or two. if he's going to be miserable i mean it's only nursery it doesn't really matter. oh no! well i phoned them up and you know they i only have to say it's mrs and they say oh! ben's mum. i said yeah he's coughing well if he's coughing as well and he might make himself sick. well this is my fear because i think oh god yeah but i mean it's not fair on him and it's not fair on the teachers because they have to keep rushing around wiping his nose and everything it's not yeah yeah yeah it isn't fair so er i thought right you know, i'll keep him home. oliver said he wanted to go to nursery today because i got some yellow cards you know they're daffy duck oh yeah! from marks and spencer you know different shapes. yeah. he must have about ten. and i said to him on the weekend. i think it would be a good idea to take these to nursery because i'm sure they would be able to do something with them. yeah! and i say over a year now difficulty. no! ben's having a little sleep darling. on wednesday. he's not very well at the moment. he's got a nasty cold. anyway i won't keep you standing i've never been well over the weekend that's why we got up so late. you weren't well i don't know must have had some sort of virus or something ooh! because er saturday bill went to work at the weekend yeah. which was good news moneywise yeah. and er on erm saturday is my mum's birthday friday. that's nice. saturday they're coming round to dinner. so i had to go and get a card and you know bits and pieces. yeah so went out and i was feeling really tired but i thought well i just been getting up very early in the mornings so yeah you know. yeah. when we came back absolutely exhausted. like sitting in a chair and drinking a cup of tea. i just can't do anything else. and bill came home really early mm so we had to sit down for a while. so i decided to do that and started to feel so sick. oh no! i was really nauseous and everything. yeah. and er then by the time they actually came i just felt awful. oh no. and i thought i daren't let on cos it's you know ah there's nothing worse and er they had they brought a bottle of champagne down oh my god. my dad was pouring it out and we were giving mum the presents and stuff. in a minute. in a minute. and er well after a while i had to rush upstairs. ooh! so mum said you all right? must've come back looking like a ghost oh no! you want us to go. oh no!just talking and stuff tends to take your mind off. you feel better now? yeah. and i didn't have anything to eat saturday at all. and then yesterday bill went to work again and luckily he was home by lunchtime. mm. we got up about nine so it wasn't too bad. bill came home about half past one. and he still wanted to go and have a sleep. and i went to bed. which is not like me! and i got up at er five o'clock. i started to feel better and bill was doing the garden. then phil came round. mm. and er i started to feel a bit better and suddenly i felt ill again. oh no! really sort of you know yeah. just achey. and my head was just pounding! mm. well i thought it was going to explode! yeah. and then i went to bed and this morning woke up later. mm. because phil was here bill was they didn't have you up? no! no! no! i was up at about ten i suppose. no about half past nine. and er because phil was here oliver went to bed about ten so he woke up about ten and i've swallowed a couple of pills and feel fine. i think i'm the same. really odd. you know this weather is i think confuses us it's really odd. you know i just felt i simply odd awful sick. i just felt really run down. ill you know? mm. and er let's hope little one doesn't yeah why i sort of kept away from him. and i didn't eat anything. i wasn't hungry. well the thing is if you have got a tummy virus like that you're best bet is not eat anything no! well i didn't want anything to eat. no. but yesterday i really fancied something sweet. lucky i had some biscuits in so whether it was er because my period started on friday mm. so mum said you know could it be my blood sugar level. yeah! it could be right down. that can happen. yeah. she made me that looks like a mars bar you got don't they? yeah that's right. we had noticed the week before that er that we had some penguin biscuits in and er really sort of we kept looking at these penguins and you left that one yeah i know and he started munching it and he's made it all soggy. but er i kept looking at them on friday. i finally succumbed. i think it was you waving the temptation under my nose. and i did i had one today. but i think that's got a lot to do with it. mm. because it seems something you're not used to eating yeah. no. it's nice isn't it? oh it's only the school it's lovely. and then the other day you were saying that it's nice to have someone drop in yeah. it's lovely. no it's nice. it's lovely. do you want to come in now? no i won't niki because he's in the car and if he wakes up and he's going to be so unhappy. yeah. and scream. yeah. is faulty. his cough is . it's not a whoop it's not a whooping cough don't get me wrong but it's you know he's chesty barking yeah yeah yeah. barky, that's it. he is very chesty anyway. well yes. so i have to be very careful. i've got an appointment er thursday anyway because i've noticed he's been sleepy he's all blocked up all all over there. specially. oliver please don't do that. right go and get that sword in the pampus grass and bring it back in here. there it is oh no i don't it's in there in the pampas grass. i can see it you know so i'll take him home but i promised him er jaffa cake when we get home maybe i don't know but it just so i would say he shouldn't snore like he does all night. not on his front on his back lucy does. does she? mm. it's terrible! you know you could she coughs a lot. does she?basket with you cos he he's she snores. the way she falls asleep she sounds like bill when she snores. she sounds like an old man. you wouldn't think for a dainty little thing would you? i know she's sitting there and she snores with her mouth wide open. she obviously yeah. breathes yeah through yeah. her mouth yeah. that's why she sort of snores and when she wakes up she's coughing spluttering. yeah. she sounds like she's smoking sort of sixty a day. poor little thing. i know perhaps it is just something that or some children have and some children don't. with oliver it's his ears. if he's going to get anything he gets it in his ears. he seems to be growing out of it. they said he would. mm. in the winter once a month. yeah. apparently you can get a . yeah. i didn't know that. i mean i'm glad i didn't i reckon mm. they don't seem to have dried out this winter . and i think he'd only had one. she's been quite lucky. put that down please! anyway look i love and leave you this is lovely! thank you ever so much. have a lovely party we are going out on saturday. yeah we are definitely going out on saturday. so er we er mum and dad sent us a card oh that's nice! and bought us some flowers oh! they're beautiful yeah! and er bill give me some roses which were oh! lovely! oh that's nice! but he woke me up this morning to wish me a happy anniversary. have you i bought him some er i bought him some er erm white chocolate truffles er in on saturday. i forgot to get him a card to go out again for a card. oh no! well i might i wouldn't mind getting yeah i think i'll walk down to green went out for a couple of hours in the morning felt grotty didn't go out at all. no. er we intended to go out to go to the garden centre i didn't do any of it. mm. but er we er oliver please! not your mum's sweetheart. er oliver can you pick that up now? we better go. come on then in you come we're gonna go in the bath now. you have a nice bath it's lovely to see you again oliver all right. we'll see you on wednesday at nursery school. yeah. see how he is. maybe we can er to get better before we spend any anyway you're going to pick up you know it's best to sort well i hope he gets better. thanks. well i hope so. at nursery and see how he is. by wednesday he might be a lot better if you keep him in. i'll keep him on that stuff yeah. yeah i know. they get so bored don't they? i know. come on then sweetie pie? well i feel a lot better today. i mean on saturday. wasn't it just as well we didn't go out saturday? right let's pick up these bricks. specially when you don't go out very often. oliver done it. i bent down to do it and he always pokes me in the eye with it. i'll do it! i'll do it! i'll do it! this is a lovely surprise. thank you! it's very nice nice of you! have a nice day! doing the hoovering thanks lyn i'll see you on wednesday. bye! bye! this is nice isn't it? mummy and daddy's anniversary. that's nice isn't it? yeah. put that up there with the other one. some nice flowers. cut these and put them in a nice vase. did you find your missing sword? no. pardon? i'm going to have a bath now. go and get all your toys and bring them back inside. i don't want to come on. i want your skates and your skateboard inside please. bring them indoors please. i don't want to. oliver! come on darling now be a good boy. now pick up the skateboard. come on. come on. pick it up. come on pick it up. here you are. oliver now come on darling be a good boy give me that. now you're coming in now because we're going to have a bath and we're going out. now will you pick this up for me? pick it up now! oliver in a moment i'm going to get very angry with you. now pick this pick it up now! now go and get your skates now. go and get your skates now! is mhm tummy. what hurts your tummy? you tell me what hurts and i'll know how to make it better. my tummy. you've got a tummy ache? mm. why have you got a tummy ache? do you know? it's, it's, i keep falling down. you keep falling down? yes. ooh. let's go in your bedroom, and get dressed. do you want to get dressed first? would you like to do some puzzles? make it. well we could do this one, it's quite a good one. we haven't done this one for a long time have we? shall we do it together? mm. let's do it now. well shall we take it downstairs? yes. i'm taking these books downstairs. let's get dressed first. what's this one called? pardon? what's this bit called, what is this person called? it's fireman sam. fireman sam. mhm. what have they got on their heads? well, firemen's helmets haven't they? yeah. well what are they going to do with them? well they wear them so that when they're putting out the fires they don't hurt their heads. well. come on, let's get dressed. which pants are you wearing? what's he got on his mouth? on his mouth? a moustache. what's he got it on his mouth for? well, some men have moustaches, they grow hair like his. mm. and . come on then, let's put your underwear on. could i? no. it doesn't hurt does it? not any more. no. come on sweetie. silly boy. what's this one called? what ? what's this one called? it's a nursery rhyme book. i got one of these already. well that's your old one but we bought a new one didn't we on saturday. i got one already. buy two ones. okay. ow! sorry. sorry. sorry. okay. let's get dressed shall we first? i don't like fireman sam. oh, don't you? no. thought you did. i didn't. for me? i'll have a look in the garage cos daddy put all your books in the garage. in the car. let's get you dressed and then i'll have a look for you. postman pat well i don't think it's in there darling cos i've already looked haven't i? what is this one called? magic music songbook. this is . . this is my . isn't it? what's this mummy? what are they mummy? that's what makes the music, look. . i'll show you. i'm doing it for you. i thought you wanted me is going round mummy? don't do that. what's that? that's ronald mcdonald. right look. go and get dressed before you catch cold. do you want me to do that one? yes. what's that one? that's a rowing boat. right. what's that? mummy? fridge fridge. what's the for? what's the fridge for? mummy? what's he want. i don't know. i don't know. i don't know. i oh umm oars. oars. do'd them. i do'd them mummy. you . right, now. umm. merrily, merrily. that one doesn't really sound right does it? i do that one. right let's do another one. let's do one that might sound . there we are. this is a good one. look. we wish you a merry christmas. yes. mummy? who's that? that's a family having christmas together. umm what have they got? what have they got mummy? what have they got? crackers. crackers. and what do they do with them?. this doesn't seem to be working properly. right. we wish you a merry christmas we wish you a merry christmas wish you merry christmas and a happy new year. there. merry christmas. why do that mummy? well they're crackers. you pull them don't you and presents come out d'you remember? mhm. er what the presents come out for? well when you pull the cracker yes. it goes bang! and then the present falls out with a hat. d'you remember? yes. and we had a christmas tree. pretty christmas tree isn't it? i, i want well not now because you only have christmas trees at christmas don't you. yeah. so when christmas comes around again yes. then we'll have a nice christmas tree again. yes. are we christmas. and santa claus comes doesn't he? christmas lots and lots of for me. mhm. that's right, lots and lots of presents. aren't i lucky? you are, a very lucky boy. mhm they're sheep. they're sheep. who's going there? pardon? who's going there? that's where the sheep go when they want to go to bed. yes. sheep dead. bed. go to bed. dead. no, bed. bed. let's put your socks on. what's this one called, mummy? what's this one called. that one's called when the saints go marching in. will you do this one for me? yeah. what have they got, mummy? they've got trumpets and trombones and flutes . ooh, this one's very difficult. what's he got? he's got a flute. oh look! yes. what's this one called? oh. this one's called snow. this one's called jingle bells. mm. jingle bells. how does jingle bells go? sing it then. jingle bells, jingle bells jingle all the way. jingle all the way. right, let's sing shall we? mm. jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way . what's that mummy? what's that? in a one horse open sleigh . what's that? what's that? snowman. snowman. jingle bells jingle bells, jingle all the way. what fun it is to ride in a one horse open . that's a good one isn't it? oh look! dressing up. what's this one called? this one's called lavender blue. oh what's he got? he's got a sword. mm. and a cape and a crown. he's being a king isn't he? yeah. and so what's she being? she's being umm a queen. mm. a queen. that's right. what's he, what's he being for. well, cos kings used to have swords in their belt. . shall we looks like a pirate. to me. mhm. looks like a pirate to you. lavender blue dilly dilly lavender green i am a king dilly dilly you shall be queen. has she got a king? she's a queen. and why she, has she got a sword? no. oh. look there's another one there. oh, sorry. polly wolly doodle. i don't know this one. they got a train. mhm. i don't know this one at all. you do this one then. sing polly wolly doodle all the day. that's what you have to sing. sing it then. doodle all day. polly wolly doodle all the day. sing. da do do day. la la la all day. do do do do . what's this one called? this one's called my bonny lies over the ocean. d'you want me to do it? mm. my body lies where's mummy? why he looking there for? well he's looking out to sea. my body . what's that? that's a boat. do you want me to do it or not? you do, right. my bonny lies over the ocean mhm? well bonny i think. oh this one's good, look. twinkle twinkle little star. right, here we gol. twinkle twinkle little star how i wonder what you are. up above the world so bright like a diamond in the sky it's dark isn't it? yes. twinkle twinkle little star what's it dark for? what's it dark for? it's night. how i wonder what you are. it's night. that's right, it's night time. oh. aah. mum what's she got? what? what's hand? she's just pointing isn't she. what's she got in her hand? she hasn't got anything in her hand. she's just pointing with her finger. she's got a sword. oh has she. okay. right mummy's going downstairs now. wait for me. come on then. read this one. well hang on cos i have to phone emma. we're going out in a minute anyway. mhm i like giants. giants? mm. th- they're knives. they're what? they're knives. knives? knifes. a knife. and th-, they cut theirselves. they cut mm. oh what's the giant got? the giant. with a tee at the end. well what's he got? what's he got. what's he got in his hand? i don't know. he's got a sword. a sword? mhm. mhm. right, stand up. left, right. oh. mm. put your coat on. are you? mhm. what? no, you can't wear that going out. please. you can't darling, don't you start being angry. right, hold this, hold this. and stop showing off, no, no, no, no, no. don't want it. well don't have it then. please, please it's mine. alright well have it then. oliver please don't do that to the flowers. no no i don't want you to do anything like that to the flowers at all. well i'm sure they don't like you if you keep bashing them. quickly, in the car. come on, in you get. i make them dead. come on, in you get. i make them dead. go up there further. mm? go up there further so that you can get in the car properly. go on, in you get. i can't. yes you can, pull the seat forward. oh oliver, go up there. . go on. put this down and then maybe you'll be able to get in. mu who's that? mhm? who who's what? who's in that car. well they're just people. go on, out the way for god's sake. why well it's just a stupid person who can't drive properly. there we are there's a card for daddy. and we've got his present at home. some biscuits for when alia and odem come tomorrow. and to me. and for you, yeah. what have you got? well it's just biscuits for everybody. for me. yes, for you and for alia and for odem. mm. and for ann and for mummy. mm. can't we? mhm. that's right, we can all be the same. and who's going to our house? what house mummy? what house? our house. we're party we're not having a party we're just gonna, they're just coming round in the afternoon to play with you and we can have a drink and and we well we're see what the weather's like. cos it may be nasty weather tomorrow. pardon darling? weather for? well on the news they said the weather was gonna be nasty. i got one of those, haven't i? one of those skateboards? that's right. you need to put, need to put one foot on there, one foot on . where you on your skateboard in the garden today? i said, where you on th- on your skateboard in the garden today? umm. umm not today. yes you were. what's that mummy? pardon darling. what's that? what's what? what that? oh that's just a thank you because the person in the car behind let me through so i just said thank you. that was all. don't hit the flowers mummy. i'm not, darling. there we are. what did we do it for? mm. what we had to do was pop out to buy daddy a card and we got a paper and we got some biscuits and cake for tea for tomorrow. what noise they make? what noise do doggies make? yes. what noise do you think doggies make? woof woof. woof woof? mm that's what they do. do they? i got pussycat. you've got a pussycat, that's right. ? pardon darling? i saw a doggie with daddy. you saw that, you saw that doggie with daddy? yes. and what's his name? mm i don't know what it's his name is barney. isn't it? he's barmy as well. no barney. that's what his name is, barney. there we are. woops a daisy. right come out in the hallway and take your coat and shoes off. ooh. i'm dead now. oh are you? i thought you were dancing. ow, ow, ow, ow . ow, ow, ow, ow. ow, ow, ow, ow. oh, who's that? hello. hello. alright? quick. that mummy? ooh, look what i've got! ooh present for daddy. right you've gotta give these to mummy. look. look, look oh flowers! ooh they're lovely aren't they? give her the card. thank you very much. pardon? pardon? i wanna eat one daddy. ooh, ooh here you are. ooh dear! ooh. lots and lots of flowers isn't there? sit down. what are you doing? what are you after? sitting down. are you, yeah? daddy's gonna have one of these chocolates. i want one. oh you, this is daddy's present. you can't this is daddy's present. i wa i can't give you one cos this is daddy's present. no you can't! no you can't. please. i want one. for lunch . janet! can i have one. i want that one. i want that one. which one do you want? that one. that one. that's daddy's favourite. please. this one that's daddy's favourite. oh bill, let him okay wait a minute. let daddy open them. goodness gracious me! oh, let go! anyone would think you'd never seen a chocolate before! wait a minute. let him have the one he ones. right, what one, shut your eyes. shut your eyes. shut your eyes. no, let him have the one he wants. i want that one. mmmmmm. oh that's daddy's poor chocolate! i want that one.. oh william, leave you have that one. okay. that one!. mummy want one. mmm. now leave them alone and eat that one. no you just get on with the one you've got. you have that one. yeah, okay. look daddy. what's that? i show you how it works. ooh sorry. is that daddy's one? eat it, before it melts. that's a mouse, isn't it? it's a rat! let me have a look. shall i show you? my flowers are nice, thank you. nice? mhm. two bunches of red roses. mm. i know, i saw them. it's my present. buy flowers. yeah but i can't eat them. no, i can't eat mine! you can. no you can, you can. ask mummy if she'd like one. no, don't pick for me, bring them over here. no. ask mummy if she'd like a chocolate. that one. just bring them over here. no, they, daddy likes those. no, daddy can have that one cos they're his favourite. here you are daddy. thanks very much oliver. and you can have yeah i'm having this one, thank you. mummy. that's daddy's one. d'you want it? i intended to give you a card on saturday but i completely forgot. you what are these? they're nice. you haven't had one yet. just look nice. no, what are they. can't have any more. they're daddies. mm. lemon. i don't know what one i can have. have that one. i don't like those ones. how do you know? we all like those. you naughty. you're a naughty, naughty daddy. i'm not. yes you are. you eat all those they're daddy's you eat all my chocolates. i smack you. go straight to bed. they eat my one, gonna eat this one so they mine. they'e not. you're gonna eat those all? yes. are you? and so you're not . you have that one. that's daddy's one. i wanna well eat it then. don't hold it, eat it. you got that tape running? mhm? you don't like it? spit it out then. spit it out in here. give it to daddy then. so what did janet say? did she phone you? well she phoned and umm asked how oliver was and everything and just said oh how are you and i said oh i've not been feeling very well over the weekend. so she said oh about three people who've had that, she said you have something to eat and you get pains and it's obviously some sort of virus going round. she described exactly how i'd been feeling. so umm we was chatting and i said oh it's your birthday on sunday. on monday yeah and i said oh i'd like to see you i've got a present for you. well i haven't at the moment, but i'm gonna get one. it's janet's birthday next week. on monday yeah. and i said oh i've got a present for you so i want to see you give it to you. so she said come round to lunch on wednesday. she said oh, umm she said oh when does oliver go to nursery. i said wednesday and thursday she said he goes in the afternoons doesn't he. i said yeah. and she said oh vicky goes in the afternoons too, d'you fancy coming round for lunch after you drop oliver off on wednesday. so i said okay. er what's in there? i don't know. probably the same as you just had. a big chocolate. d'you want me to bite it and see? take it out. take it out, go on. all the same. are you eating it or not? no, give it to daddy then. no, no, no, no, no. you don't want it oliver. i do. here we are. .very nice thankyou. whaaaay . chilli con carne. that woman phoned about that job. oh yeah. she's coming round on wednesday to see me. is she? well about the job. oh,ensla phoned up. chocolates. there aren't any more, they're all gone. mhm. so umm scallywag! you're a scallywag. you are. she said umm oh where have you been! you haven't bee-. d'you want to do a pooey. na. do you! noooo. no. if you don't she said umm oh wh- what's happened to you? i said what d'you mean. i thought oh my god we arranged to go round there for dinner or something, i'd forgotten. oliver! that's enough for a minute. let me talk to mummy. calm down! let me talk to mummy. and umm i said umm oh! oliver! that's enough now. no more. i said what d-, what d'you mean. and she said ooh, haven't been round. i said well we've been very busy. oh well what have you been doing? well seeing a lot of people, going out and doing things and i don't know, just been really busy. i said well you can always come round here. well she said she said you can always come round here? no i said to her well you can always come here. she said where have you been! what happened to you! so what d'you do, how d'you leave it? no i mean she just started, she opened the conversation like that. and we just chatted but you know she said like, i said oh hello she said hello it's ensla, i said oh hello! so she said umm oh what happened to you! what d'you mean. i really thought she meant that we'd arranged to go round there and we hadn't gone or something. she said oh i haven't seen you. i said we've just been really busy. dunno she wouldn't tell me. oliver, calm down darling. come on. i said oh if i'm in beck and i've got a free couple of hours i'll come round but i don't think i'm going to this week. why? well tomorrow anne's coming round. wednesday i've got that woman coming round in the morning, take oliver to nursery, pop round janet's and then pick oliver up from nursery. i thought you were going out with janet. well, i'd rather just go round there for an hour and sit there. then thursday it's swimming, nursery, my dad's swimming, nursery. coming round. friday we're going round clare's. you're going? mm. so you know it's all i'm meant to be seeing that heather one day this week but i haven't rung her. i mean today's the only day i've had free and the phone just hasn't stopped ringing. ensla, janet ooh you know what ensla's like when she gets on the phone. my mum phoned, dad phoned. well yeah mum phoned again. pardon? do one of them. called. tape recorder. you turn it on and it tapes people singing or talking. and then when you turn it off you can replay it and you can hear yourself talk or sing. i want you to switch it on. and you can press the button like that. that's right. go. where's she going? she's going for a walk. she's gone to the shops. yes. to buy a paper. i posted that flym umm edger trimmer guarantee. what . oh where's she going? i don't know. she is going i don't know what time anne said she was coming. you said get round as early as you can. pop round as early as you can. three until twelve. are you my friend now? yes you are. shall we be friends don't want kiss and make up? no. no. tetley make tea bags make tea. tetley make tea bags make tea. don't say that. that's naughty. give me a cuddle. nooo. come on, be my friend. be my friend. ah, oh. don't want to. get off! get off! i go sleep. go sleep. sit up, put a cushion behind you. sit up again. there we are. is that better? let me have a look at your hand. i know, you hit me on the head. i tried to stop you. no you didn't. i did. no you didn't. you stopped pretty. no. oh they've opened up already. . nice, aren't they? now i've got to put them somewhere cool. cool. bedroom. i got you, i got you. i get you. get off. i wanna cuddle. i wanna cuddle. i want a cuddle. i want a cuddle. i want a cuddle. please. i want a cuddle. i want a cuddle now. the grand old duke of york, he had ten thousand men, he walked them up to the top of the hill and back again. they was up they were up, and then when they down they were down. when they was only half way up they were neither up or down. that's daddy, that's daddy's,. the grand old duke of york, he had ten thousand men. he walked them to the top of the hill and then walked them down again. and when they were up they were up, and when they were down they were down, and half way up they were neither up or down. the grand old duke of york, he had ten thousand men,. when they were up they were up, when they were down they were down. when they were neither up or down. i got you. ah, ah, ah ahah. time out now cos daddy's having his coffee and its very very very hot. right. time out. i'm having my coffee now and it's hot. . ahah, ahah. when you go to nursery you've gotta be a good boy otherwise mrs m , mrs wilkins will tell you off. that's enough i'm having my coffee and it's hot. the grand old duke of york, he had ten thousand men, he marched them up to the top of the hill and he marched them down again. when they were up they were up, when they were down they were down, when they were only half way up they were only half way up they were neither up or down. when they were up they were up. when they were down they were down. when they were only half way up they were neither up or down. right, be careful. go and sit down. i feel sick. no you're not. stay there, don't panic, don't panic. don't panic. lost your breath, have you lost your breath? deep breaths, deep breaths go aah, ooh. is he alright? yeah. big, big breaths. sit down on daddy's lap. big breaths. big breaths, go aah, ooh, aah, ooh. that's enough, that's enough. you choked. right. get up! get up and go and sit down. i want to be here. just sit down for ten minutes. i want to alright you can do your puzzle but just sit down and stop rushing around very very sick. look daddy. did you do that by yourself? yes. that's a fireman! mhm. fireman sam. and the fire engine. and a boy and a girl. what's the boy and girl doing? they got hats perhaps what daddy? what? what , what daddy? what daddy, what daddy. that's a fireman and that's a ladder. what's he gonna do with that ladder? what's he gonna do with his ladder? he puts it against a house and go up through the window. and what's he gonna put on there? the ladder. a ladder. what ladder? the ladder that the man's holding. what that one? what's the time? sadie? what that one? good heavens. twenty to, yes that one. where d'you want to go? is dave and clare, oh dave and clare's not coming out with us are they? i don't know!. why do you keep saying they're not? why d'you keep saying that? mhm. it's cos of clare's mum then innit? nooo! it's not. or is it jane? she's gonna ask jane to babysit. well i haven't seen her so if , if they, if sh- jane come over she, we'll is that it? why not ask them? well what am i gonna say when they turn round on friday and say oh we can come am i gonna turn round and say oh we don't want you to come out with us. why d'you keep asking me? mhm. willie? ow! willie! why d'you keep saying the same things. oh i'm sorry well why do you keep saying it.? i dunno. cos i'm you don't want them to come out? yes! well this is the fourth time okay. i'm gonna say it once more i don't want to speak about it again. last week i asked clare if they wanted to come out with us on saturday. and if jane could babysit because her mum can't because she's just come out of hospital. when she speaks to jane, which will be over the weekend she'll ask her if she's doing anything on saturday and if she'd like to babysit. if she will babysit then they will come out with us, if she can't babysit and they want to come out with us, and dave, clare will be able to tell me when i see her. okay. i'm not going to tell you again. did he find his other sword? no. i think it's where's that piece of puzzle oliver because we keep losing things don't we? come on, find the piece of puzzle please. oliver. yes mummy. right. come on. give me that, now could you find the piece of puzzle that's missing then. i you find the puzzle. where's daddy's gone to have a shower. where was it? you found it. ummmmm. i think it was there somewhere. it's here, you found it. did you want to have a shower with daddy? umm yes. yes? yes. come on then. those on. put your dungarees on. no, cos i want to keep them dry cos you can wear them tomorrow. come here. i wanna do them. no you come here and i'll do you're always complaining no i'm not about everything i cook. it was nice except the courgettes. next time you cook it can you leave out the leeks? it was nice but i didn't like the i always use to put onions in it always. up to six months. but i six months? yes but i decided i didn't like it so i didn't put in any. but when i didn't put any you said why can't we have it with the onions any more and i said you said it gave you indigestion. hm in future you decide exactly what you want to eat and you tell me what you want in it. i'm not moaning you are moaning i'm not and its getting on my nerves. i'm not i just asked why there's onions in it because i always used to toss it in so you just changed your mind and put it in i just decided to put it in to see if it tastes better . if it's a problem throw it all away. i'm sick to death of it. and i put pasta and it was nice except i just asked a question. don't carry on well why did you say that the other day then? it was nice but the next time you do it can you not put such and such in it. yes well what is the point well what is the point in me cooking? oh yeah it was nice but i'd rather not have that in it. why have we got that and that? two it's not willie it's all the time every week you say something about something. you tell me what you'd like to eat exactly in future and if i feel like doing it i'll do it. and if i don't feel like doing it you can do something yourself. ah. don't it's our anniversary other people seem to complain about their hangers multiplying whenever i've got hangers disappear. i've never got enough hangers to hand the clothes back up on the cable. i don't know whether we should bring those plants in tonight because erm they reckon it's going to become frosty those ones that we haven't planted yet and the hanging baskets. do you mind? they're buying a three bedroom place for the next they're just just going to move there just as they're going to have twins. that's all right. three bedrooms isn't it? you're a very clever absolutely clever boy. pat you are a very oliver. whee! you're clever aren't you? you're so clever. little boys can't do that can they? only big boys. only big boys and clever boys. you're a clever boy. can do that. can they? but they're big boys but they're big boys as well. hm but average boys can't do that can they? because they're not as clever as you. they can do it how old are you oliver? i am three. three! and how old is lucy? uh four. no she's two. wrong way. what old and what old is. what old is leo? how old is leo? yes he's five. and what old how old what old how old? how old is russell? how old is russell? he's eight eight! eight. he's a very big boy isn't he? yes. i think you'd better get down now because you're going to hurt yourself. hey don't up and down. you go and sit down. so they're not pleased then? well not really no. so what are they going to do? not move into that house? and buy four bed well no. the contracts are signed now. it's too late now oh but when she was how long was it since she worked at how long since she was working it was a couple of months before that wasn't it?that you said she was bleeding. yeah i think she was about four months pregnant. yeah but she should have know ages ago that she was having twins. hasn't she been to the hospital since or something? no but she must have done. you go to antenatal but that's all easy to say about once every month. they must have known for weeks. lucky them. do you remember that erm woman we saw in the park with those two little girls? i remember them. those twins. they was nice. they were beautiful and she had two others didn't she? no one. no she had two. one about oliver's age and one about five. because they were dressed identically. didn't you see them? well i think she only had a girl. she had two girls. yeah four girls no two girls. they were twins in the buggy and then she had no. one was about three and one was about five. the little one that was standing next to the pram was about oliver's age wasn't she? maybe a bit older maybe four. i remember seeing one and one she was pushing in front in the in the about oliver's age. yeah. then she had an older one about five and a half so she had four girls. flintstones girls. no twins were girls. they both had pink vests flintstones! they both had pink baby grows on. they were beautiful babies real model looking babies. i think with twins -even if they're not nice looking just the fact there's two of them everyone thinks they're wonderful because there's two of them. that richard next door looks just like i'm not sure. cos his brother is quite a lot shorter than him. or taller. do they? he looks more english. did you him? no do you want this t-shirt? well if you're not going to i could wear it to work oh! i tell you what the sleeves will have to be altered why? i don't want to look like that. i tell you i'm not going to look like a bloody scruff at work. why? i'll wear some other different ones. well what's wrong with them. you haven't answered my question nothing. but i mean well now don't be ridiculous! they're two years old maximum. what the er the grey yes. the most they are is two years old. seven or eight years! you talk garbage. plants are being nicely watered tonight. yeah. is it still raining? my. years. maybe some rain end of september start decorating. the dining room and sitting room soon. and started to clear the furniture out and everything. hm they've lifted the carpet up and thrown it away and erm she said erm oh erm. we're going to have erm stained floor boards hm floor boards are in a really good condition erm. they better mind their overheads she said oh you really aught to do it because my my it's such a good idea. because you can get rugs so cheaply. so what did he say? so i said we have a house full of rugs because we had rugs we had tiles we had either tiles or wooden floors all the way through and erm we are going to paint everywhere white. erm because having erm light erm have coloured dark coloured walls is not a good idea. we really aught to have pale walls in most cases. she said when you decorate you really aught to erm my get rid of erm you really aught not to have dark walls you really aught to have erm pale we was going to paint the whole house white. sort of like our erm like the most of our downstairs was in the other house apart from the sitting room, yeah yeah yeah yeah. but she said but having white you know most people you speak to say oh white you shouldn't have white because of this and because of that. you see? this this this oliver! what are y' doing? i putting this hurting me. i get blamed. 'cause when you hurt yourself or i touch you you go crying to mummy saying that daddy's hurt you don't you? yes. i'll do it to richard. you go and do it to richard next door. no. go and do it to richard next door. oliver no screaming. willie don't make him scream. don't scream. only girls scream. you're not a girl. yes i am too you're a little girl? yes. hm. all right then.come on then up to bed.. no. i'm going to get on you. he rolls around on me you know my cheeks my ears and my hair doesn't he? i don't know. he's never done it to me. oh! he's always done it to me oliver i don't understand why you haven't got your clothes on. mm mm. it's not so cold now is it? hm. mummy mummy! come here get up. mummy! mummy! no! what is he doing? stop that! stop it i say! i hurt daddy. cry! cry! daddy's crying now. daddy's crying. daddy' crying. i'll cry some more if you why you cringing for daddy? because i'm happy that's i'm happy. oh oliver will you stop that now. leave me alone. uh uh don't be so rude. sit down! sit down! i want down sit down. i wanna get down now you are being a very very rude boy. i wanna be a good boy. right then be a good boy then. that's enough now. no that's enough. we don't want to hear any more. i won't cry. come on. that is enough now. i won't cry. no there's no need to cry. i won't cry. you are being very rude. i won't cry. right did you do a wee wee when you went upstairs with daddy? yes. did he? no. right upstairs then and don't tell fibs. go upstairs and do wee wees. i don't want to do wee wee. i don't want to. shall i put the heating on? hm please. right lets go put your jim jams on come on. i want some what now? smacks smacks. what smacks smacks. hm what are you talking about? yes smacks. right. upstairs 're n bill you're teasing him. i want to sit over here. no you're not you sit with us. no i not i sit over here. do you mind and sit at the table i going to sit here. look we have got special bread now come on and sit at the table with us, i don't want to. i want to sit here. no. it's too messy to sit there. come on you've got ketchup and you've got special your favourite bread pitta bread. mm. no i going to sit here. i like to sit here. i know well you've had your breakfast and your lunch here. you can have dinner up here. come on. i want to sit here. well you'll have nothing then. go to bed. i am sick to i am not playing don't speak to him like that. do you want daddy to do you some bread? go and get your knife and fork on your table anybody like a drink? mm. yes. yes please. i'd like a beer please. may i have a drink please? or would you like some bubbles? i don't want okay daddy'll have bubbles you want bubbles? i had bubbles. pardon? i had bubbles. you don't like bubbles? i like bubbles oh you like bubbles. no hate! oh you love bubbles. no hate. he hates bubbles. yes. don't have any then. yes i do. yes i do you do hate them so you're not having any. yes i am 'cause i want some. hate means you don't like lots. like means you do like some. you don't do that at the table boy! naughty bad boys. oliver don't do it any more. come on. no no no no. if you do it oliver come on put this glass down . stop it. drink it can i get down what do you say? willie willie come on goodness me. willie willie goodness me. willie willie goodness me how does willie climb the tree? i'm gonna me. can he get up? no he can't. willie willie can you climb the tree? no he can't. come on then. football man. hello there might be something i'd like to watch that comes on at ten o'clock. i like to watch i think you'd like to watch nothing at all 'cause you have what you want on every day. no i want to see pardon? i want to watch is that bread in there? see i miss everything here poor mummy. here you are oliver. i like to watch katy, i want to i want to watch there is a noise pardon? i want to watch sword and the stone hm yes and pinocchio and scooby doo and robin hood i don't like and batman and robin and rescuers and ghostbusters. that's all you want to watch isn't it? is it i don't i don't i don't like i don't like robin bruback brubaker's on at quarter to eleven. i don't like sword and stone no do they brubaker brubaker they got no robert redford. redford makes the most of his blue eyed integrity as a humane prison governor who reforms the place and discovers a nasty secret. ? yes you're always complaining no i'm not about everything i cook. it was nice except the courgettes. next time you cook it can you leave out the leeks? it was nice but i didn't like the i always use to put onions in it always. up to six months. but i six months? yes but i decided i didn't like it so i didn't put in any. but when i didn't put any you said why can't we have it with the onions any more and i said you said it gave you indigestion. hm in future you decide exactly what you want to eat and you tell me what you want in it. i'm not moaning. you are moaning. i'm not. and its getting on my nerves. i'm not. i just asked why there's onions in it. because i always used to toss it in so you just changed your mind and put it in. i just decided to put it in to see if it tastes better . if it's a problem throw it all away. i'm sick to death of it. and i put pasta in and it was nice except i just asked a question. don't carry on. well why did you say that the other day then? it was nice but the next time you do it can you not put such and such in it. yes well what is the point well what is the point in me cooking? oh yeah it was nice but i'd rather not have that in it. why have we got that and that? two it's not willie it's all the time every week you say something about something. you tell me what you'd like to eat exactly in future and if i feel like doing it i'll do it. and if i don't feel like doing it you can do something yourself. ah. don't it's our anniversary can you read this one? which one? dummy. which one's that? ah paddington bear. paddington bear at christmas time. and it's got lots and lots of letters. it has. well would you like me to get you some breakfast first? erm nice drink. a nice drink. mm mm well read this one then mummy will get you some breakfast. okay. what's this one called paddington's magical christmas. mm one day not long before christmas paddington was busy doing his accounts when he heard mrs bird singing which was most unusual. as he listened to the words he nearly fell off his chair with surprise. it seemed her true love had sent her a present from a partridge in a pear tree. as it happened paddington was having trouble about what to buy the brown family for christmas and he wished he'd thought of it himself. which we'll find out in a moment. he hurried out into the garden but to his disappointment he couldn't see a pear tree anywhere let alone one with a partridge in it. he gazed hopefully at mr brown's apple tree. but apart from a few sparrows and a robin redbreast the branches were bare. paddington made his way back in doors. and no sooner was he inside when he heard mrs brown singing that her true love had sent four calling birds three french hens two turtle doves not to mention another partridge in a pear tree. hm paddington could hardly believe his ears and he hurried back outside as fast as he could go but once again he was too late. even the sparrows and the robin redbreast had flown away and all that was left was one fat old pigeon sitting in the lawn. all the same paddington decided to keep his eyes and ears open. clearly there was something going on. sure enough no sooner had he settled down it was judy's time to break into song. this time she announced it wasn't mrs brown's four calling birds three french hens two turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree she had been five gold rings. paddington decided that browns must have a very rich friend indeed if he could afford so many presents. it made his list look very small. he couldn't afford much more than a set of plastic rings let alone five gold ones. over the next few days the mystery deepened. seven swans swimming arrived and disappeared again before paddington had a chance to see them. he even tried looking in the oven but mrs bird drove him out of her kitchen with her feather duster. eight maids a milking came and went where's he gone? but paddington did find a note on the door step asking for two extra pints and things. where's he gone mummy? hm table tennis. he began to wonder if he aught to ring for the police but no one else seemed to be in the slightest bit worried. when paddington heard what mrs bird sang next. nine ladies dancing he decided perhaps that she had ordered the extra milk in case they got thirsty. he searched the house from top to bottom. there was no sign of any body. just as he was about to come downstairs he heard jonathan singing. it seemed he had been sent no less than ten lords a leaping. paddington decided to go see his friend mr grover who kept an antique shop in portabello road. apart from all the antiques mr grover also had piles of books about every subject under the sun and paddington felt sure he would be able to explain the mystery. as soon as paddington arrived mr grover made some cocoa and they settled down on the horse hair sofa at the back of the shop. tell me mr brown he said what is the problem. i can see that you are very worried about something. mrs bird has fallen in love with a very rich man who has lots of servants and keeps birds said paddington. he sent all sorts of christmas presents but as fast as they arrive they disappear. mr grover listened carefully as paddington told him the story. i think mr brown he said at last if you go back to number thirty two windsor gardens you'll probably find that he has sent eleven as well. paddington gazed at mr grover in astonishment. he was used to his friends knowing the answers to his problems but this was the fastest ever. he finished his cocoa as quickly as possible and he was about to leave when to his surprise mr grover began pulling the blind down over his shop door. you see mr brown he explained they haven't really been getting presents. they've all been joining in singing a christmas carol but you have given me an idea for your present but you'll have to hurry though -it's christmas eve. a lot of the shops will be closing early. paddington trying to keep up with him mr grover lead the way along portabello road who's that mummy? that's mr grover. and as they weaved their way from the stores lining the streets he explained what he had in mind. paddington grew more and more excited as he listened. i don' think i shall sleep very much tonight mr grover he said. just leave it to me said mr grover i think between us and with the help of some of our friends in the market we shall be able to give everybody a christmas to remember. mr grover was as good as his word and on christmas morning soon after breakfast a very strange procession began making its way from the market. where's which's mr grover? we'll find him in a moment. towards number thirty two windsor gardens. on the twelfth day of christmas my true love sent to me twelve drummers drumming eleven pipers piping ten lords a leaping nine ladies dancing eight maids a milking seven swans a swimming six geese are laying five gold rings four calling birds three french hens two turtle dove and a partridge in a pear tree. if you ask me said mrs bird as she invited every one in for a hot mince pies fresh from the oven that's the nicest start to a christmas day any one can possibly wish for but then she added and with general agreement with a bear like paddington about the house life is always full of surprises. hm. right let's get you a drink now and some nice cereal shall we? you read in a moment yes i will. what are these mummy? they're biscuits. what biscuits are they? they're chocolate. i like these ones i'm sure you do but they're for later. marching. hm. right are you going to sit down now. you're going to have your cereal now and then you're going to get dressed. okay? i'm not going to whose birthday is it too? pardon? whose is it birthday too? oh somebody else having a birthday? let's have a look. whose having a birthday? erm what's he know? that's jenny. jenny. what's she having? what's they mummy? they're blowers. birthday blowers aren't they? where's they came from? from party poppers. i think it's a birthday party for oliver. it isn't not for you. but for oliver the little doggie in the book. what one for that one? that's right. it's not a doggie is it? no well who is it? it's it's not a doggie what is he? he she's a doggie she's a doggie and what's he? erm he's reefer. mm and what is he? erm a little boy? erm es he's not he's a pussy cat. mm a pussy cat. isn't he.? er what's that? somebody's hand. whose his hand? erm 's hand. mm well have you finished your breakfast? you haven't have you? yes i have. have some more breakfast and then i'll read you a story and then we'll go and get dressed. come on. oh. i've had enough. i is full up. you're full up? yes. oliver don't be silly darling. right are you watching play bus? no? yes. that's very hot. no read a story well i can't read a story while the television's on. if you want to watch play bus you sit and watch it. if you want me to read you a story i turn play bus off. mm read me a story. right. i turn play bus off. okay. and as soon as we've read a story we'll get washed and dressed. hm okay. have a nice shower and get dressed? yes. right where are we sitting. in here where it's nice and sunny? yes i's going to get all my books. no i'm not reading them all. i'm only reading one sweetheart only one. you read this one? well just one please. you got one two three. i've got four haven't i? mm you got four. right which one do you want me to read? this one? i might read this if you read that. this one? i'll tell no! i'll tell you which one we'll read because we haven't read all the stories in this one have we? no. we've only read the one about earnest the elephant. right sit up on the chair and we'll read the story of the jumble sale. i can't see. no. well you will be able to when i turn around. your head? no my hands. your hands. right let's go upstairs and get dressed now. no no no no. yes we've read all that. i said i'd read you a couple of stories. up we go. oliver leave sammy alone. him no he doesn't want to be pushed around. come on up you go. does him wants to get dressed. sammy doesn't wear clothes does he? no well then silly boys. oh no. i carry sammy. i carry him. no he doesn't want to be carried. i do. no he doesn't want to come upstairs. he's lying in the sun. come on. come on. i want my i don't know where they are. i can't find them. all right we'll have a look later come lets get dressed now. i don't want to get dressed. well you'll have to. you can't go out in your pyjamas. i not going anywhere. well we have to go to the bank. i not going anywhere i said. don't be rude. i not being rude. don't be cheeky. i not being cheeky. you are being very cheeky. i'm not. who who bought this? mummy and daddy bought it. where did it came from? it comes from the gap it came from one boy's garden. don't be silly. how can a sweat shirt come from a garden? it came from some boy's garden. i told you that. and she's bringing alia and adem to play with you we're just going to beckenham because we have to go to a shop there. what shop? a clothes shop. and we need to go to the bank too. what was that noise mummy? it's that big digger. digging up the road all over the place. what's in the road? no. the big digger is holding up all the traffic. there's no where's that way mummy? pardon? there's a big digger there. hm hm it's a big one there. what's that digger digging? he's digging up the road. don't know why. probably because the road's all bumpy and they have to make it nice and smooth again what would you like to do have a nice sandwich for lunch and then later on have something proper. i don't want something yet. can we see a it's not there any more darling is that a sheep down there. i think the sheep have gone now. i don't think there using sheep any more. pardon darling? what are you finding? what am i finding? hm. do you mean what am i waiting for? hm well the traffic lights are red. what does red mean? erm what does green mean? what does green mean? erm go. green means go. that's right so what does red mean? red means erm green means go so red means stop. why we going home? why we going home? yeah. alia and aden are coming around to play with you this afternoon. are they coming now? in a minute. in a minute? hm hm. look at all those clouds. i know it's a nasty day isn't it? hm. it burns your eyes. come on then upstairs i do want to i'll find it for you in a moment. go upstairs. take your shoes off here. i stay down here. no because you've got to change your clothes. please can i? i will once you've been upstairs to change your clothes. stop being so silly. now go upstairs now. pick that up. pick that up this minute. now go upstairs now please. come on upstairs and stop being so silly. . pardon? i want them. you want stem? no i want them. well they're coming soon. i want them no because that's very very dangerous. why's it dangerous? because their springs and springs can hurt you. they can't right.. come on then what's it called mum? pardon? what 's that called? that's called that what are these pardon? it's my toy. i know darling but no it fell down i am not in it. pardon? i am not in this book. i can't understand you i can show you. you can show me? in this book. you can show me whose in this book? yes you can as soon as you're dressed can't you? hm come to mummy. come on then. you can't get me. hee hee. come on then. lets wash your face. hm. poo poo. that's a silly noise. yes. trying to get away from my face. you're trying to get away from your face? yes. that's making a fuss aren't you? do you hurting me? i am not hurting you. i am giving you a wash. where's that bear? i don't know is that a king? not a king. why you saying that? come on. what you put in there.? hat you put in there.? i can't understand you oliver when you're mumbling. what you mean? come on stop why you in there? who is in there? or why are they in there? where are they? in there. in the cage. how are they in cage? pardon? how did they get in the cage? how did they get in the cage? they just walked in. mm where's oliver gone? where's oliver gone? he is in . making tape. oliver doesn't do his jumper there he is. there's oliver. do you like your nice new sweat suit. who bought it? mummy and daddy bought it. why's the tape on? i'm sure erm why i don't know. it comes from the gap. it comes from the boy's garden. don't be silly. how can a sweat shirt come from a garden? it came from that boy's garden. like i told you that you're a peter pan. you look like peter pan. you look like peter pan. don't you? hm mm you do look like peter pan. do i? mm. i haven't finished getting you dressed. i haven't. because your jumping. your sweat shirt isn't tucked in. is it in now? now at the neck. don't run away. oh. oliver come on sweetie. come on darling.. where's oliver gone? where's oliver gone? here he is. here he is. you have to until you combed your hair. that's enough. that's enough. that's enough. i said that's enough. i know what you said but it isn't even dried yet. don't be such a big baby. you hurt me. it's done now. leave me alone. i will leave you alone now. let me go on my own right off we go. jack and jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. jill fall down and broke his crown jack and jill went to hill to fetch a pail of water jack fell down and broke his crown and jill came tumbling after. are you gonna have a major pig out on biscuits, or are you gonna wait and have your dinner? or just eat biscuits and have no dinner? no. i'd sooner have dinner. we've got this. what d'you want with it? salad or or potatoes and peas. umm. i might have some salad. d'you want it now? mm. please. joe le taxi!. i phoned up some more umm schools. uhuh. got an appointment to see one of them. have you? umm, on the eighteenth of june. what one? mead. mead road. which is actually in chislehurst, i think it's up near the bull somewhere. you know the big young's pub. oh yeah. i think it's up there somewhere i'll have to look on the map. is it a private? no. it's a state school? mhm. well i don't know yet whether were going to be able to afford it or not do we? so we have got his name down at a few schools just in case. and then if we can afford to send him privately we can just take his name off. yeah. just don't send him but if we can't afford it then, we just don't know what's gonna happen do we? no. but at least then we're gonna be ready aren't we if we put his name down at four or five schools in the area. if we get two or three places then we can choose the best one. mm. then, that's it, it's done. you know it's sorted out. yeah. and if we can afford to send him to bishop challener or wherever then i mean if we can't, thing is at bishop challener we wanted to ge- reserve a place now and just pay fifty pounds. if we don't send him we don't get it back. and what we could do is keep him at saint christopher's if we can afford to send him privately, keep him at saint christopher's for a couple of years. then get him into bishop challener as soon as they've got a place. mm. but if we can't then we take him out of saint christopher's next year and put him in a state school. it all, just all depends and a year's a long time isn't it? just wait and see what happens, you don't know, it all depends on you doesn't it . if you go away then as soon as you know that you're going we'll send off registration for bishop challener and that's it and we can send off a year's a year's umm fees in advance can't we? yeah. no problem. the best thing to do would be to put away five years' worth of umm fees in a high interest building society account and just have a direct debit taken out every term and the fees to go out wouldn't it. cos if we put sort of ten thousand away the interest would be paying for the fees all the time wouldn't it? eh? yeah. that would be the best thing. it would be just done and done with then and there would be no question of not being able to afford it would there? just wait and see what happens. i'm just gonna ring up cos mum couldn't get through yesterday so she's given me her credit card number to order things. one of the schools that phoned up, scotts avenue or scotts park wear a really nice uniform, saw a little girl when i was out today. did you? red and white check dress she had on and a big red sweatshirt with scotts park on the front. oh you told me yesterday, yeah. see another one out there today. red blazer she had on. didn't see any boys. probably grey and red or navy and red. it's nice having a sweatshirt . mhm. d'you want a smoke? mm. oliver! don't go to sleep darling cos your pizza's nearly ready. has he been busy? well we were rushing around. ali came about two i suppose and she's only just gone. how's odem? he's lovely. did you have a bit of rain? well it was raining when they came. and then it really brightened up. anne wanted to look round the garden so did she like the garden? mm. she thought it was lovely. she said a couple of those tall things are umm are weeds. foxgloves which are poisonous. yeah? and maybe if you feel up to it one evening this week you could go round and give it a dig up. i mean if i tell you where i want dug over, then if you're not working at the weekend, we can umm dig everything over and then, cos i mean that area down there, it would take no time at all for you to pave. no. you don't have to concrete them in, just put them in sand like you did before. like you did under the pagoda . cos anyway we used to walk on those and sit under there and it wasn't, didn't move did it? did she like me barbecue? mm. she said oh been saying he's gonna build one for five years but he's never got round to it. and she likes the house? yeah. she's definitely gonna have umm a conservatory put on. at the moment they use their sitting room umm as just somewhere to put toys and washing and, just haven't decorated it or anything the dining room is still used like a living room, and what they really need is another room where they can. cos all their bedrooms are used up so they haven't got. what they really need is another room where they can put like the bigger toys you know. cos she said, didn't she say she wanted to move again? they do want to move, but just can't afford it. because she doesn't earn much. doesn't earn much at all considering she works three days a week. ahmet don't earn a great deal does he? he doesn't. no he brings home less than two hundred pounds a week. and he hasn't got a company car like you. she's got a fiesta. mm. y reg. mm.mm. same colour as the one they sold to . yeah. i think they bought it with his redundancy money didn't they? i don't know. where's the flowers upstairs. i put them on the umm landing window. they look really nice cos of the red curtain. i brought them down here but there isn't anywhere to put them. does ann like it round here? mm. mm she loved the garden. she said oh it makes our house and garden seem so small. she said i can't let them do playdo i can't let them do painting she's just got nowhere to let them do anything. mind you, if we went back in our house now it would look so much smaller wouldn't it? yeah but we had the conservatory didn't we? mhm. and i said to her having the conservatory does give you a lot more extra space. but then we've always had a spare bedroom haven't we, only having the one child. mhm. whereas they've had both bedrooms full up. yeah. i mean alia will be three in january. cor she's a right busy isn't she? oh god! she's like a whirlwind. she's on the table ooh like this she's oh what's that and pull that down. oh what's that. she just doesn't stop, under the table she said oh what's that card and the jug nearly came down. and she's tipping the chalk out and she said what's that, oh that's the phone, under the table, pulled the rocking horse out. oh look at that picture. and she just doesn't stop. she emptied the whole toybox out. ann can't control her can she? she doesn't try very hard. no. went out in the garden and she's got a bike out and the scooter and the, and she's in the house now and she's just. she was almost in the pond. and ann said come away. no i'm just looking. she, she wouldn't do it, she wouldn't come away. and ann just, oh you'll fall in. what about odem? was he playing? mhm. he just laughs all the time. i know. they're really messy children. they dribble. i don't know whether it's cos they're so sort of worked up that they've got no control over what they're doing but umm . you gonna have your pizza? are you? you keep him awake. pardon? don't be so nasty to mummy. i'll put his jamas on i think go away. go away. daddy wants to, daddy wants to sit and watch your video with you. no, come on, no noise thank you. be a nice boy. don't aggravate him. please. did you have a busy afternoon with alia? oh you them socks on last night. didn't you? cor! poo! stinky!. touche. oliver! what's this video called? lady and the tramp? it's called is it? i haven't seen this one before. you don't do you? pardon? you don't do you? no i don't. merlin. mad . oh mad maid of . i like merlin. d'you like . do i like? what is that? the owls. yes i do. king arthur. king oliver? king arthur! king arthur. king arthur. he's got magic. has he? i heard that you had a nice little lay in this morning. in bed, did you, yes. you had a nice long sleep. is that right? where they going? they're going they're flying. and what, what house he going? i don't know what house they're going to. they're going daddy could do with a nice little doze i know that. doze? mhm. nearly ready. half an hour that takes doesn't it? where're we going on saturday? i don't know darling. you name a place and we'll go. ooh oliver. birds isn't it? what's that bird called? that's oh is it? yes. oh i like her. i don't. don't you? why don't you like her? she's being nasty. why is she being nasty? don't like her. why is she being nasty? that's why i don't like her. what be-, because she's nasty? mm. oh i see. come on darling. well sit here then. no, you're not laying there and eating your dinner. come and sit down here. it's hot. it isn't hot i've let it cool down. come on. pardon? come on darling look. you eat this pizza. come on, you've asked for it. i not hungry. you don't want it? give it to daddy then, daddy eat it. mhm. don't you want it? are you sure? yes. cos i'm not going to do you anything else. well come on, get off. get off i said! right! get upstairs! get up, up those stairs! i'm sick to death of you being rude to me. the swords are going in the bin. i didn't realise this programme was still running? it's so boring. . aah watching television was so exciting. no films on. sam, why don't you go and chase frogs? he spends almost his whole time sitting by the pond. does he? . i haven't seen it since. we got that woman coming tomorrow about umm next job. yeah. i think she said half eleven. you never know. she said there wasn't anything at the moment . she wanted to come and see me anyway so she's got all my details on record. always makes me laugh the way he sounds so surprised that announcing record profits and asking customers to pay more. how are they making record profits? by customers paying more. mm? profits on? water board. oh. oh do wake up! well i didn't know you know! well i only just heard it on the news. i hurt my shoulder when i was having a shower. did you? how did you do that? i don't know. i think i must have twisted round to get the shampoo awkward . is the heating on? no, i haven't put it on. you cold? no but it's gonna get, it's getting cold now cos the temperatures are really gonna drop tonight. dropping down about two or three degrees. i don't think it's cold at all. my teddy bear you want your teddy? yeah. now what were you doing in mummy and daddy's bed? ah. i dunno. you don't know? you woke up didn't you and came into mummy and daddy's bed. and what's this? what's that? let me have a look see what's in this page. look no page, look. nothing on that page. that's a new book for you, isn't it. what's he got mummy? he's got a baseball bat. he got baseball bat as well. what'll they do with baseball bat? well i should imagine they're playing baseball. ohh. mummy, who's that? what darling? who's that? and the joker. oh! batman and the joker. and the joker. i don't like the joker. don't you? alright which cereal would you like for breakfast? come and choose one then. i don't like it. you've got to have some cereal. get hungry. i won't get hungry. you must be hungry, you hardly had any dinner last night. there we are. mummy look. they got saucer in this. the saucer in that one. you've got that story already haven't you? mm. two ones aren't i. no. there we are. sit down in the corner nice breakfast. you must be a hungry boy. well it doesn't matter you can look at it afterwards. . be careful. don't get it in your breakfast. it's a new book isn't it? well look, if we put teddy on there okay. put teddy like that. . here, have your breakfast then we'll have a nice bath cos mummy's got a lady coming to see her today about a job. i'm full up now. oh you can't be full up. i am. you can't be. ah. finish some more cereal you must be a hungry boy. and, d'you know where you're going today? yes. where are you going today? i don't know. you don't know then do you? you're going to nursery! take my cones. oh you can take your cones if you want to. i will take my lunch box. you want to take your lunch box too? . i want a cuddleee. oh oooh. . ooooh. what would you like to do today? i like toys. you like toys? and i like swords. right let's take this nappy off. i take my books as well. well i don't think you ought to take your books to nursery do you? they might get lost. i tell you what you can take. you can take those umm those facey yoghurt pots can't you. the ones with the umm daffy duck on the front. you can take them in to mrs wilkins and maybe she could do something with them. do you want to put everything in your lunch box ready? yes. yes. shall we do that now? yes. please. get your lunchbox then. which one are you taking, the turtle one? dunno what's in here? what's in your lunchbox. oh your flask. right get the stool then you can help mummy put the things in here that you want. ooh. ooh. ooh. eee. that's it. right, now what d'you want to put in here? all of it shall we take those in to nursery? put those in there. there. oh, oh, no. oh no. . that's it shall we put all those in there? and take all those to nursery, now what else did you want to take? nothing else in here. i want take umm. what did you want to take, your cones? well i thought we'd keep those because then you won't have any will you? so if we keep those here, mm. and then you can have those. and these we can take to nursery and we can leave them at nursery can't we? so all the other boys and girls can see them too. mm. okay? i want those ones. no we'll leave those here because then we can play with them here can't we? do you want to take some cones to nursery? yes. go and get your basket of cones then. where they gone? there in front of you. there look. very careful, good boy. we well if we can put them in little bags, ooh oooh. right get up back on the stool then. yeah. if we put them in little bags i think there's some more in the grass outside. see if we can collect some more before we go and get some more. well you'll have to go and get some shoes to put on. i'm going to put some wellingtons on. well go and get your wellies then. d'you want me to help you? yes. are here. right, as soon as we've done this then we'll have to go and have a, you can have a bath and mummy can have a shower because i've got a lady coming to see me about a job. what job? well i don't yet she's gonna come round and see me to tell me what sort of job. and then when she's gone mm. i'll take you to nursery. okay? yes. we're not staying outside thought cos it's cold. well shall we keep some at home? no well you've got lots in there. i don't think there'll be any room on the table. will there? can't i put them on desk?put them on the desk? well you've got to take these as well look. ooooooh. d'you want to put that on the desk as well? alright then. read book well, gonna eat your breakfast? read book first. no, if you're not going to eat your breakfast then we'll go and have a bath and then i'll read you a story. okay? come on then. quick. pardon? they my friends. who are your friends? my friends at nursery. what are their names? umm. i don't know what are their names. you don't what your friends names are? right, well we'll park the car and we'll go off to buy you a doughnut. where shall we park? well i'm full up now. are you? i'm full up now. well put the gingerbread man back in the bag then. don't you want to keep your umm doughnut until you get home and you can have a nice drink? d'you have a drink when you're at nursery? did you? what drink did you have? you had some milk? what's this? don't know. it's about cowboys isn't it? don't know what the programme's called. story about cowboys, horses. and that horse's got lost. oh did he? and and he don't know where to go. oh. and he, and he fall down. and pardon? what's cowboys got? what've they got? what cowboys? umm horses and hats and guns. and what guns do? well guns are very, very nasty. they go peeow peeow. peel peel . they say do they? and they come out with the gun. look, they're on the horses now. where they going now mum. they're going to find all the cows. mum, what's that man talking about? mummy. pardon darling. wh-, what's he talking for. well he's talking to the good man, isn't he. he say. he's a good man. he's a good man isn't he? mhm. . got a gun . mum, what's he got on his neck? he's got a scarf. yes darling. mum where's my painting? i put it away darling i thought you'd finished. you can do some painting when you go to nursery can't you? go to nursery. don't pull your jumper darling, please. it's coming on! well watch it then. mm. mummy yeah, give me those scissors, you're not rushing around with those. are you eating this yoghurt? what's that mummy? bang. umm, what we do, we're owned by grattans. we deliver parcels, all parcels for grattans and we also deliver for the next directory as well. and it's self employment so the couriers that we er supplied with the parcels with are the p- umm er, they're liable for tax and insurance if any is due, i mean earn a certain amount of money before you start yeah. and the rest of it's up that is something that you'd have to find out but you are the who me? yeah. no, i'm o , i i'm employed by grattans, and grattans employ. anyway grattan owns the courier. yeah. we own the depots. in fact we could be called grattan couriers but we call it, we're called direct line. grattan direct line and we're just like a company grattan but grattan own it sort of thing and basically what it is, it's a daily delivery to the door. mhm. and we work in postcode areas. mhm. and we, well we work it all into sections so that in your postcode, in v r 1 mhm. it's divided much easier to show you i think. right, take v r 1, okay it's that big slash line round there,in there. yeah. okay? now in v r 1 split up into five pieces. postcodes v r 1 one something something, two something something, three or whatever. shut up can i have a sarnie? do you want one? in a minute yeah i'll have one later, not just yet though i didn't think you had any well i think joanne's put some in come on we're pretty quiet this side go on go on ooh come on you reds come on oh go on whey hey actually neil ah? i think when we come down we stand can't you see? well no not quite do you want to stand there? no, no i'm alright i only wanna see goal, that's what i wanna see there when it goes in the goal there.. go on hooray come on eh? hit it go on get it up there, go on get it up there for christ sake eh er christ getting cold darren? no gonna sit up here ah? gonna sit up here bloody hell go on keep it there, go on, keep it going, oh dear ah come on let's see some bloody goals too far, too far oh we've got a throw in now, eh? yeah throw in, yeah eh? eh? what you oh jesus christ go on jim kick that bloody thing they'd be out the way come on come on for crying out loud i wish they'd hurry up and score neil eh? i wish they'd hurry up and score, corner where you going with this one now, oh dear, ooh christ well they ha come on come on go on, oh don't, why didn't he get the bloody thing up there then that's hand ball get it, go on come on come on, come on cor strewth, fuck it, oh mind the tape go on go on by christ go on go on have a go, cor, good no seventeen minutes gone and no bloody goal yet eh eh, ah stuart, eh just there, grab his leg ah toe the line mate get it out get it out go on go on ooh didn't, neil didn't you say he don't like football he liked it but he just didn't want to come oh thought there'd be violence oh i see, violence in here, don't get enough to get eh? is that what he said? they say he knows how to take care of himself no, he don't get, he don't the job no, he, he seems to think different now no, only you start trying to look after oh yeah, sort the buggers out well they're all quiet down there then, what they waiting for then now? christmas go on jesus bloody christ how could he of missed that come on tim bloody three year old wouldn't of missed that come on you reds, come on you reds, come on you reds oh, straight into his bloody arms oh there's a bit of a curve on it, no he won't get that go on what? come on come on, no, come on neil go on, oh he's oh when the saints, when the saints go marching in come on you reds, come on you reds, come on you reds come on yeah i know, yeah oh dear, come on go on ooh, jesus wake up man come on what the hell are they doing, oh for bloody hell sake i don't know, what are they bloody doing there come on ha hello hey, hey, got a ticket? got a ticket mate? get him out naughty boy, naughty boy, naughty boy well he came a long way to get chucked out didn't he? cor bloody happening, neil put ours together mate yeah, yeah well done ooh a, ooh a, ooh a, ooh a, ooh yeah they're mine alright? eh? they're yours? yeah they're the only ones in there are they? oh perhaps i haven't got me other bag then neil i doubt it, he slipped go on ah so what's he gonna do then? he was really annoyed, he'd been there twelve years ooh there should be six of these, there's only four oh well what a bloody come on you reds, come on you reds i don't fucking believe it come on your reds, come on you reds must be happy now oh, go on no go on then go on well played get out of it oh ha go on then, get in there come on what happened there, what come on four of them in there come on come on shaun, go on now come on shaun oh, oh well done oh oh god they're right low in the league aren't they? go on oh oh christ oh come on neil is it over? oh oh come on er by bloody christ, they've got more backs than bloody forwards i think oh go on oh where is it? come on oh come on, lazy lot of buggers you, come on ah, jesus christ, bloody wrap up yeah yeah well, yeah, good business they're getting go on matty, go on matt oh oh come on for christ sake come on oh dear, oh dear feet high, bit high, keep those feet down come on go on bloody hell you're a rubbish manager, go back to reading ah you reds come on shaun come on shaun well done alan, come on noddy pull your socks up, come on no i didn't bring a picnic basket you know er they should be able to get where they gone? oh are you going? yeah eh oh god what happened to his coffee, what's happened to his coffee, too much coffee in it do what? too much coffee in it again, no thanks, no if he don't like it he can make it himself who's that john ? no jack eh? jack the don't worry about it he's right at the very back you ah? you can't see the er no, don't start see where that tea bar sign is? yeah, he's not there he is no he's not he is, i swear to god you can't, you can't get up there, what you talking about? yes you can matt, really tall bloke with short blonde hair long, he's got black hair no i didn't say it was him, he's up there you can't keep he's a tall man with short blonde hair too bloody short he is, he's that's him no he can't he's got the same eh? yeah last time we were at the back though she's not, she's looked down oh i'll go and see joanne in a minute yeah how can, how can, many jumpers has she got up there then? oh well, yeah that's a point she's got, she's got one of my rolls has she? well go and see if you can get it, i'll keep your place for you mate can't get through there yes you will, go on david where's, where's your programme mate? in me bag let's have a look mate you've got one and all who has? eh? you who? no i ain't i've, i've bought two you've bought two, well let's have a look at yours mate then excuse me i've bought two, one for you and one for me alright then, what did you do that for then? cos you paid for me to get in oh can you see alright down there david? what? can you see alright down there? yeah good oh boo come on you reds yeah, david you might do you? no where's all your hey yeah come on, for christ sake better luck jason we're one now what for? who's offside, who's offside for crying out loud? rubbish, oh no wonder ref don't like you very much fine ah come on, oh oh dear oh dear oh dear, it's unbelievable innit? what you trying to do? that's good come on oh well done matty here we go no good, good decision, not bad ref that was a foul there ah come on oh no don't book him, these are home, it's got mayonnaise i think when the saints go marching in oh when go marching in i wanna be in that number oh when the saints go marching in, oh when the saints oh when the saints go marching in oh when the saints go marching in, i wanna be in that number oh when the saints come on you reds ha, come on come on you reds, come on you reds come on did you see that? come on for christ sakes get in there quick come on you reds, come on you reds get in there, come on go go on where the bloody are you ah you pillock come on come on this is a football match at southampton, southampton versus bolton, mind the language twenty sixth of the second, ninety-two goal kick go on come on you reds, come on you reds, come on you reds go on, go on oh no didn't get on with it that's right oh oh yes go on, go on ha idiot off, off, off, off, off ah? come on for half an hour this i'd better see how much go on then, oh come on come on come on pick it up come on you reds no come on you reds, come on you reds watch good boy come on far side, far side no here we go, here we go oh jesus i thought that was it what's he doing, get it up here oh come on boo come on there come on alan come on oh my god what are they dead or what? i don't know hello what's happening there then? come on you reds oh who are they, a ticket? yeah good come on you reds, come on you reds, come on you reds come on son, come on he'll break his bloody leg come on then well done cor it's all play at that bloody end innit? come on play, oh christ, come on come on oh, what are they bloody playing at for, and don't say bloody football either come on come on you reds come on rubbish, they're more like no what's he a bolton supporter? go on, oh sugar i heard that come on you reds come on good catch yeah here they go ha ran foot style come on ee bloody good on the post, go on mickey, go on they're not special he's a bit or rough oh no i don't know, rubbish you warm enough neil? what about david? yeah yeah go on for crying out loud what were they thinking of? come on you reds, come on you reds, come on you reds ha come on go on yeah, oh and again, and again come on no good save weren't it? bloody good, bloody good save that was when the saints go marching in, i wanna be in that number, oh when the saints go marching in control it, control it control it go on terry go on terry go on for christ sakes come on you reds, come on you reds come on then go on come on go on jason oh oh black bastards, oh black bastards, oh black bastards better not. come on physio wasting more time oh dear, oh dear oh, oh when the saints go marching in, oh when the saints, go marching in, oh when the saints go marching in, i wanna be in that number, oh when the saints go marching in go on, ha, brilliant oh you idiot he's off, he's off come on you rubbish team oh when the saints, oh when the saints go marching in oh when the saints go marching in, oh when the saints go marching in, i wanna be in that number go on oh when the saints go marching in come on i'll you what er keep, keep what? come on you reds, come on you reds you got a programme? nine minutes left eh? nine minutes left yeah they're gonna get a goal in a minute oh when the saints, oh when the saints go marching in, i wanna be in that number oh when the saints go marching in for christ sake come on here they come get there, get there oh eh? oh yeah i know well come on son oh yes oh, oh follow it, follow it yeah come on you reds, come on you reds, come on you reds come on alan bloody you idiot, you lazy idiot well what a waste of bloody corner, weren't it? can't even kick a ball over, i can't believe it a bunch of bloody wankers oh dear, oh dear, oh dear cor, oh they are mate for saturday go on now, that's it go on get in, stuck in, for crying out sodding loud yeah go on go on make it, make it go on what's that eighty, or eighty three? eighty eighty, yeah come on now, go on well done alan come on get it away, oh god then a wide get out, get out, bastard what are they playing at for crying sodding loud come on serves them right fuck it serves them right my makes you wanna fucking cry don't it, ah? ooh yeah, come on might as well ah come on, just bloody get on with it, they had to fucking score didn't they? they had to score oh i know, you could see it coming though couldn't you? it was in the pipeline weren't it? serves them right, they don't deserve to win, a load of rubbish you bloody get in go on yeah woo, hoo, hoo, yeah, yeah good morning thomas. well now aye. what can we do for you today? thank you. what can we do for you today, tom? ah she's not getting out of bed at all. she's not? no. she's not. aye. well we'll get the specialist to go in and see her and see what he makes of her, see if he can get her back on her feet. she still in bed all the time? aye. aye. what about her leg? how's it doing? it's not doing very good. is it not? no. no it is not. she that er that cream, and i couldn't doing it any good. is it not? no. no. right. oh i'll get that sorted out for you. no problem. mm. and what about yourself thomas, how are you doing? och. up and down. good days and bad days. aye. up and down. er i wanted some tablets doctor. some tablets? aye. chest trouble, you know. right. and your your stomach. bottle, are you needing some more of that tom? aye aye aye aye er . and your paraven parav plenty of paraven plenty of them tom? aye. what about the cimetidine aye, i need them. you need some of them? aye.. now what about alice, is she needing? aye er er lus lustril need some of the lustorol lustorol bolterol er and bolterol er ni nikram,ni nikram tablets. nikram nikram nikram tablets. what's she taking that for tom? inflammation. she's only supposed to take that for a week at a time tom. er is she? aye. that's dangerous stuff that. is it? aye. if she takes that for more than seven days it can poison her system. oh aye. so le leave it off just now, aye. is she still getting trouble with the inflammation? aye, aye, is she? aye. right. well nikram was fine thirty years ago, but it, it's too dangerous now. ah, ah, ah. cos er it was alright ah. way back in the old days but now then, er some stella stelladine some stellazine stellazine aye. and norvex? nordex sorry,norvex norvex aye. no. don't know that one. mm. wh what's that one for tom? er what was that one for?tablets and then capsules. oh right, right. capsules. right. nor it's er nor normax,normax tablets. normax that's right. that's right. right. erm aye. that's right. that's the one, aye. that's the one. normax that's that. and there we are young thomas. th keep that going for a wee while again. aye. see if we can get her ready for the dancing. mhm. mhm. er she, she brought up er a, a black it was all, all black. mhm. all black. aye. and er she was gonna er erm . mm. the black mass she up. that's right. that's, that's the voltarol probably doing that to her. voltarol aye. that'll be the voltarol doing that to her. aye. aye. she'll need to watch she doesn't take too many of them. mm. cos they must be a wee bit too strong. ah, aye, aye. so keep her three a day. no more than three a day and if three a day. aye. aye. you can keep her down at two, so much the better. ah, aye. but tell her she'll need to watch because that's the voltarol mm. beginning to react aye. and the other ones too? choke her. the other ones. the er that erm what do you call it erm when you very dangerous. i've been telling her about that and all. aye, tell her about that one as well. aye. aye. aye, that, it'd be the voltarol that would give her the, the black stuff coming through. black stuff, aye. coming through, aye, aye. that would do that. but the negram er it can put her blood right away down. oh. within, within two or three days. mm. if she takes too much. too many? aye. so tell her or else. aye, yeah. or else she'll get a punch. and er what's er what's wrong with her leg at all, is it inflammation did she say? aha, yeah. inflammation in the ligaments in there. aye, aye. we'll get it cut off and put in the bin, that's what they'll do with it. don't tell her i said that. don't tell her i said that or she'll be up fighting me . er what else er n you got er everything for yourself? i've, i've got everything, aye. you've got everything? aye . right. right tom . alright. okay now, go easy, and we'll get that, we'll get something sorted out for her. aye. aye. we'll let you know. okay? okay, right. right tom. right you are. okay. right, cheerio. cheerio now. no, no listen right,fir first is it on? first of all yeah, we can erm, of course it's on, we can go to my house yeah, my house drop my bag and tell my mum where we're going then or no listen, listen, listen, then we can, well first we go, go to your house yeah yeah cos it's closer, yeah, then we go to my house i'm coming now then we can go to kate's house and see if she's in yeah if she isn't in, no, we can go to your house and then go back to kate's house yeah cos she might be in then, yeah cos she has and, oh yeah and then we can go to the tube station and go up to kilburn yeah,and then we can switch off and afterwards again, when i've finished and, you know there's late buses running from johnny go this way after, afterwards, after i've phoned my darling wakey and you lot speak to him, yeah yeah oh i wish we were going up to ask, i'll speak to johnny eh er, i'll speak to wakey and johnny no, suppose i go to this fella, hi, hi, i love you and for wakey i just go oh hi fee, fee i never two time you and everything in it?, but you lied hold on, i, erm, i never two time you, i lied, a oh my god, i don't want you and daniel going mad what? you and daniel what about it? ooh kissing you know oh do you hear no in, in, er before t p, not t p what am i talking about, before registration when we were all in the class, she started shouting at him is it?, why? she's going, erm because he, he doesn't do anything, yeah, and she's going oh i suppose any other girl would dump you ages ago, you don't know how lucky you are, she just so nice, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he, i say it was so funny and she start shouting at him, that's why he was trying to go oh shut up i heard voices oh i heard voices oh god but what can i do, he doesn't i know he's too shy boys hey, say yeah i know and i said to her well don't she doesn't, she doesn't too shy why, what did he say? he goes oh i think, i've already changed my mind does she still fancy him? daniel that's nice, yes i get yeah, wait, slow down just walk, walk kilburn okay whoops have you seen they're gonna come up in a minute oh no oh sarah get off what time is it?, what, what, what time is thing? i dunno oh i wish we didn't go in there, i don't like going in there well would you walk round oh it's funny, you just get the laser guns to you and you have to shoot everybody yes, but i don't like going in there it isn't, it isn't, it isn't where the arcades are, don't, that's just, that's just the waiting room, where you wait, erm, to have your go, what is it, do you play against each other or is there two groups of people? two teams do you get to choose your teams?have you been before? no neither have i really itchy oh shut up don't, right i reckon i am yeah, everytime you say that i start scratching, she's no oh my good i know cos that's what lucas said to you in it? yeah but he lied though, do you know why? no watch it okay me, mum, i know, yeah, do you know how to cross the road? where i'm sure there's a bus strike where's the thing?, yes it is a bus strike it said on the, on the and yet we walked to school and we didn't see one yeah, but that one was going the other way yeah what time did you catch a bus? really, really, really, really late well we, we, we never saw it i know unless we were just kind of indulge in a conversation and we didn't see it that means we'll have to walk there if we go to yeah unless, unless you wanna go to your house, and then you come to my house no and then come to my house when you you're coming to my house you know yeah, alright, alright at first, are we taking the tube alright?, you walk up and have a look and then you, us go to your house and look and then and then us go to my house okay and then yeah, but that's gonna take ages, it's, we're not gonna be able to get up to kilburn on time why'd you have to go home?, just to get some money, how much is it a pointer? if you two take the yeah, go to my house it's much quicker and phone your parents at your house yeah you can phone your mum, just say you're going up to kilburn no way to buy, to buy some pens or something for school, cos i need to get a pen anyway, so it won't be, you know catch a train now? no quick increase your pace, increase your pace aha, ah? increase your pace, increase your pace, only joke, er, normally i'm made amy's coming over this summer is she? yeah stay at your house? no i'm not having them stay at my house, it's not big enough anyway sarah tonight i'm gonna stay at your house not in my bedroom i think so no, no hey, guess what?, and we'll buy some chips with vinegar are you?, wow, just come to my house, don't go home yeah can i phone from your house? cos it's gonna take way too long, erm, yeah of course sorry i didn't take it in, yeah of course, what you have to pay what are you, you're given you're given her permission to phone yes from my house yeah, yeah do you pay the phone bill? no, you do though well no i don't, i who pays your phone bill? well my nan pays a third, no, a third of it my dad pays a third and my mum pays a third oh well, like, my mums and dads are all in one really so they pay so they just get it out two thirds, yeah yeah so you know a bit like that so your mum doesn't charge you anything for using the phone no that's good does your mum? no but, she prefers for me not to stay on the phone for very long she does yeah cos the phone bill she doesn't like me doing i don't listen, i mean sorry, i've got a frog in my throat, erm like, she tells me not to stay on the phone too long, but sometimes i have to, okay, not, not necessarily just as a conversation, but, homework and stuff why you walking? because the there's a bus coming about every hour or something, it's quicker to walk er, that'll teach her, see she's, teacher's name sarah now and my names yeah yeah erm train station yeah are you walking all the way down kilburn high street? yeah i'd like to walk with top of station where'd you where'd you live then? i have to take the train down there are the trains running alright? yeah, i think so, they were this morning, where'd you live? oh can we catch the train to kilburn park? yeah eh? i'll have to tell everyone that i don't fancy him any more why?, don't you? no or are you just gonna say that daniel always keep going oh look, i think he's quite flattered, you know no yeah, he is er he maybe flattered, but no he must be humiliated i don't think i don't think he's, er, he's not angry or anything he's alright about it yeah, but, say someone fancied you yeah, but, you're not ugly are you?, are you? yeah, to his eyes i am how do you know? cos i know he might be secretly in my dreams, in my dreams in my dreams we kiss right in my dreams did you? yeah when?, what in france or when we got back or what?, or before?, how long have you fancied him for? eh, i dunno, when i met him he was quite a quick kiss then cos i didn't really know him before holiday romance no did you? about what about them? what she gonna do? mr yeah, he's gonna go bonkers bye see ya bye she fancies yeah yeah yeah have you done your english? english? yeah what? as in mr english what did i have to do? extra scenes to that, to that play thing ah i dunno what to do, i mean no, don't be bad you see ? yeah yeah what time is it open?, kind of, if you, if we went now yeah what time would they let us in? now but isn't it every half an hour, every hour or something? no, every twenty minutes oh right what's happened to your voice? i dunno oh bitch, er which one of you in here is called bitch?, what about the other person called bitch? no where's the one called bitch? i dunno walked under that bridge in it? kind of like here where's little map? having a big map ow, you suppose to i don't know, he's gone home in it?, station roosevelt take it this way no, been to big macs house roosevelt what? what? i've forgotten now, never mind don't tell lies no she likes somebody else actually no, no, not the alarm clock how does he know all of this?, do, do you talk to him?, do you tell him your darkest secrets? like, yeah i know something that you don't know, i know so i know something that you don't know like, i know that you don't know but i know but i know have you lot i know something that you know something, she doesn't know, she knows like, she knows that, she knows that, she knows that, i don't know that, that she know that you know what i don't know i don't even know what i'm talking about like this she looks like only because she one of them i know, i don't suppose that he doesn't know i know, that he told me, not, no he actually didn't tell me, but yeah are you sure? but you don't know what i know and i know something that she told me about you that i know that she don't, she don't know that i, i know that, you don't know that, i know oh can you yes i do know i know roosevelt? no yes come on, you've started it now you can't finish it? no i'll finish it tomorrow morning oh you better not say, something like bank holiday next monday i know no school, what shall we do? we've got a we have to go out we've got an extra day , we've got an extra week huh, yeah yeah, you lot, you lot can speak to where you want extra week for english eh? extra week for english as well, with miss oh god sarah what's wrong with me?, must do all this walking like this yeah oh yeah, is it? who? go into the burger king, put them into the burger king, i've got to go and get out it's not open yet though, open soon, look you forgot it? yeah, i'm gonna buy a big juicy burger christine do you have an english name? er, what's your chinese name then? oh yeah she lives round, er where them two live, one is my boyfriend i know, but she's a bit fat though yeah like you no really, listen, i know a girl called no so do i she's fat and ugly here, you're talking tongue twisted have you seen my very recent oh, see it, some, i can't remember who it was, somebody thought she was dead why, i don't want to see a cos everytime when i see her again it reminds me of roosevelt reminds me of roosevelt you're gonna say that, in it but, she never used to have short hair did she? who? oh, did i look nice with long hair no you look ugly, you look ugly now urgh, look at that dress ooh, you gonna wear that? no i said er look at that dress oh i thought you liked it no er there, er there alright i go, do you like my red dress?, she said yeah, yeah, yeah she said oh i wish there was a big breeze blow my, up my and everybody goes wow roosevelt i need to ask you some questions you're not a virgin are you? what? are you a virgin? what's it to you? oh go on please tell me no no, you're not a virgin no, i'm not gonna tell ya no, why? maybe she's ugly people say that you went out with is that true? no yeah, yeah, yeah alright then, so, yeah, i'll get you sarah, i'm not coming with you why? cos, turn that off for a minute and i keep on saying, yeah it's true cos what? because erm, i don't, i don't want to oh go on come no, no i'm only going into woolworths yeah, i'm going into woolworths, you have to go to as well i'm going home because i don't really alright yeah okay no, it's personal only joke you know for my to school and i like to say something about you know who oh it's true where did you get that from? that? aha this?this? yeah from people at university it's yours yeah? until they collect it, it's not, it's not mine to keep, have to give it back but you're not, you're not doing the tape on and let anyone listen, yeah no good why? better not you know you can listen if you want, only joking, no, i don't think i can do that, i'm allowed to listen to it, i have to record it at home you know as well it'll be funny mr knows about it, he might let me record the lessons that'll be quite good there won't be much to discuss doing it again eh? there won't be much to discuss what in the lessons?, yeah, because you get to hear everybody speaking and everything erm i wonder where kate got to? do you wanna go woolworths now then? yeah, i'm not going coming back up, yeah we have to, well i'm gonna go then okay, cos we have to come back yeah after, we'll be wasting our time yeah bye bye otherwise we won't know what to do then because yeah like we pop home and that early because there might not be shall we go my house first? yeah then to your house so, i we're taking the train or walking? hello we're going, well i'm gonna go home and then i'm gonna come up yeah oh i'm just alright, i might see you in a minute then okay love, bye bye, bye bye, she's walking there? she didn't come with us, she, er, we lost her then, we lost her i don't know where she's going are you walking or taking the train? what back? now now now or coming back up to kilburn? yeah, erm now, shall we walk? we might as well walk if we're here yeah, otherwise you'll have to walk all the way down the hill oh look at the pigeon, urgh so we'll go to your house, go to my house, write a note yeah and then we, get my money, i've er over a hundred pound, then, go out, play a round whatever and then later i'll phone up roddy, tell him to meet me on saturday and he tell him to meet you on sunday, aha no, no, no, just where does roosevelt live? er why's he coming down here? because usually it's a knock away team, game er don't or do? do, i will say, i will tell him about, i always talk about him, right, he's yeah, oh you want, you really want me to speak to him? yeah, why?, what?,did,goes what did she say? she goes, she says like he's, erm, you know, he's always in erm high she writes for all over her in her books she say that, and she say that and she's always writing your name over the books and everything, okay, oh yeah, you must ask him if he fancies me and love him and ask him why he don't he phone me that often, ask him that, you must say, right yeah, but don't tell him that i told you to ask him, yeah i'll just say do you phone her? yeah, okay, phone her oh and he goes yes, yes cos it's important to phone pe he goes, he go you phone her very often, okay, okay yeah very often, okay and he didn't realize, he goes, and if he goes no, just, it's important phoning her you know, she feels happy everytime when she, you know, spoken to you speaks to you yeah and erm, if he goes yeah, really, well you know, you know that phoning peo your girl friends or whatever right,you know try to make him phone me daniel never phones me and ask him how many letters, how many letters he does though, you letters, what? do what? you can ask to speak to him and then you pass it over to me after you've spoken, yeah yeah, of course of course, you know, i mean,fo ,fo you know it's sarah picture him secretly without me knowing urgh how old is then, fourteen? yeah, he's gonna be fifteen this year, he's one year and a half older than me, so, and he goes, i told him okay and he goes you're young, and i goes i know what? what's a matter with you roosevelt? sarah yeah what would you say yes on to that you're going out erm henry? who said that? no one, nobody said if, if somebody said sarah's going out with henry? yeah i'd say i wasn't going out with henry yeah, but if you keep on saying that and the other person keep on saying no you're lying what, what is it right? what would you say? huh? what would you say? don't what's this little bitch over here 's doing?, i said you, i said i don't go out with and he's saying, she's saying that i do let go why you say i'm going out with that's what i heard yeah, but who said? just ignore , i'd, i'd ignore the person, what, so if somebody came up to me and said you go out with henry in it? yeah and kept on and on saying it yeah and i'd say you say no man, go go away get a life exactly, said to that, that person over there shut up you'd get a pardon? you'd get not a new one i said let go man what if they'd get a new yes why? because she wants so we're going to my house first, yeah yeah so it, your, your house, your, it's not too far to your house is it? no, it's only going to take five minutes to get there yeah from your house alright what number is it? four and i'll get all the cash out first i'll have to take my ba my building society book of and get a bit of money out, cos i'm short have to get, have, i've got some money to get just seventeen and like i've got two pounds extra right, and, i'm gonna need some money for the weekend. what shall we do in the weekend?, are you gonna be able to make it this time if we do something? saturday? yeah, can't do much on sunday erm can't you go to chinese school on sunday i'll have to remember oh yeah, if he says yes he will because it helps me out, so i don't say nothing, he says he can't wait oh look my bags open, tt, i hate this bag it always comes open by next monday, you know monday bank holiday, yeah we should go out with, with everybody, us and the boys oh my god daniel especially oh course, aha, no, it's, it's not that bad going out with them they act a bit different, not much different, when they're on their own yeah, cos chris came to the cinema by himself with us, with me and kate yeah yeah he was alright still a bit stupid, but he wasn't as bad as he is in class like when er, when they're only, you know find him civil they're are okay, i mean, right but with their friends they've gotta show off yeah and everything, so there so stupid can't be yeah be cool and everything yeah i know er, maybe it's my turn to yeah it's nice, nice of you to phone her yeah you phoned him? no yeah sometimes, i've phoned him more times than he's phoned me, put it that way me to man, i've been waiting about, nearly like three times i phoned a week and he hasn't phoned me once a year don't phone him that often, daniel's phoned me twice and once to ask me out yeah and second time was, was returning one of my phone calls oh, oh, the thing is okay, did it, did erm, did, daniel just suddenly like asked you out or did someone got you together? no, he, it was, it was after the party, after the christmas party and everybody was going oh sarah fancies daniel and daniel fancies sarah and then, but he was too shy to ask me, yeah oh yeah, yeah so, so then anita goes, no i go tell him to put it in a letter then, yeah, and he was gonna put it in a letter and then he changed his mind and he said he was gonna ask me after school, but then he didn't ask me after school and kate gave him my phone number and then he phoned me yeah and then he asked me then and erm, he didn't know whether to ask me or not, well he knew, he knew more or less i'd say yes anyway, cos i more, i'd already said yes, but not to his face, so but he didn't know whether to because henry fancied me when you ask someone out, i'm scared in case they might say no i know that's why i'm so excited what about erm wakey and erm johnny and , are they gonna go to or not should we or not? eh? eh? should we? up to you really do you want to? i don't mind it's best to do it at weekend yeah, more time in it? yeah, do it on the bank holiday yeah if, if, it's open should we? okay come on then, you come into my house yeah? yeah, not for long though no, oh no roosevelt's gonna see where i live yeah quick go slowly, let him overtake us, aha, no point yeah man it's your house okay he won't really come up to your house i wouldn't think lucas knows where i live lucas? yeah round my area, that er, you don't have to take one minute, but it where is he? i dunno ooh quick does that he even noticed he, that you, he, he, he walks in a, in his sleep, i saw him, he's in a daze okay then, i'll just tell my mum put my coat up hello, hi ya hello hi darling erm here, erm can we just go up to kilburn?, to get some pens and stuff and i need to get some money out of my why didn't you do it on the way home? cos i need to get some money out to get oh okay where's darling? upstairs was she alright on saturday? yeah no, what happen was the alarm went off in their block or something and they all had to go into a room, i don't know she's don't know, anyway i'll, i'll be back for dinner, yeah how many sixes in fifty four? oh, three, six nine yeah, nine, erm fifty four yeah, exact, nine exactly, okay then alright darling, please don't be long will you? no, what time shall i be back by? tea won't be any longer than an hour, an hour and a half, shops shut at five, five thirty okay, i'll go straight to my account and then go to woolworths or something, saw nanny in kilburn oh good, is she on her way home then? she's coming down what you laughing at me? i'm not how many calories mum seventy nine, so you had a roll tomato and cheese okay then, bye, bye bye bye,you got black bye bye, i just have to get my bank book okay why, to get some money out? yeah, do you wanna leave your bag here?, oh no you're going to er how comes you can get your own money out and i can't?, i need my mum's signature because this is, this is mine, mine in my own na , this is my own building society, this is for children to do oh, right cos usually you have to, it is my parents, i've got one in my parents name as well but it's just so when you put your money in you get it out anytime yeah, look, i'll show you, right it's right to save, yeah, nationwide that wow see man that's, that's just, just what, that's what i put in and take out do you get me, hi you see, you know er how much are you taking out? i don't know how much to take, i might take ten pounds worth or something, i don't need that much why, i need some money for saturday as well don't i?, shouldn't need that much though i'll, i'll call it my dictionary of slang let's go into woolworths , your dictionary of slang i need to get a pen oh look i can buy a bed sheet , bed linen anyway, what? who? i always look at food, er i know you're food man, mad, man , yeah, erm where's the easter eggs? i don't know do they, have they still got easter eggs, just you like those easter eggs, over there, what? here we go got to get this do they still have easter eggs in here?, i haven't been in here you know since yeah there, idiot i haven't been in here since i've come back from devon oh, this your half price, ah how much? forty nine p forty nine? yeah, cos it's half, half that price, forty nine, fifty is that nice though?, jelly in those i like these ones how much are they?, i like these to, shall i get one? i put, get that and i go urgh in your mouth you know i've already had some of these, we had this, whoops put it in your mouth and it's awful we had some of them at home, shall i get one of these? are they nice? yeah have you tasted the caramel ones? yeah, you like it? yeah do you wanna get, shall we, do you wanna get one? my friend bought seven for my kids, for her kids okay, they didn't like it, gave it all yes nice look have you tasted this? are they nice? i don't know i haven't tasted it? shall i taste, shall we get one as well? it's only money have you tried these before? yeah are they nice? bit, it, it's this ones much nicer it's, it's, it's yuck is it? you're, don't you see erm chris, what's his face on the coach when we went to france, this is what we was going to get i know kate gob stopper look they've got what we were gonna get do you like this or not? that one? yeah do you like? love that yeah is it for you? mm ooh kate look kate ah yeah gob stopper i'm gonna get some as well you know because i've only got one and it's brown, it's disgusting in it? get a basket and we, i'm gonna get a lot of sweets, get a basket and put everything inside and i'm looking at alright put your things inside wow, you can carry it yeah oh i love these me to you know, how much are they?, fifty four have you tried these before? milk chocolate i like these bar, you put, i always chewed them really fast yeah i like these put it this way i like sweets, oh look they've changed the bow me to they've changed the bow, oh it's a different make isn't it? oh yes it's woolworths make,you getting some? how much are they? what one you gonna get? what's it called? you like that? what were you gonna buy then if you've got a basket eh? eh? what are you gonna buy?, oh kate look how cheap this is two ninety nine oh i might get it how much are they? what about this one? hold it sarah , hold it yeah, that's, that's a nice one hold it while i'll try it what does it look like here? what do you think?, er how much are they? i don't know, how much are they? one pound something what colours that? not even two pounds, do you think that's nice? this is one ninety nine that's not for, that's not a t for a test sarah by the way do you like this one? so erm, cos this is this one yeah that shall i get it?why?, i'm getting shall i? take two you getting one?that's, that's rubbish oh look oh they're only two ninety nine no that, that set of it, that game, it's all plastic in, look it's so sweet you're buying one now , there's no easter eggs left, are there? one time they had this big trolley of all smashed up easter eggs and me and my mum kept running up to it and nicking bits of chocolate i like all this stuff yeah eh? nice in it?, i like the hat, huh ooh sarah ahem i wanna do you like these mint choc biscuits sarah? yes viscount yes yes oh the first time i've had one i don't like the orange oh is there orange as ? you can buy orange, but we don't have any here i'm gonna pay the telephone bill tomorrow a hundred and thirteen pound, fifty nine p chloe says to me does the post office pay you? i've got your black she said who do you pay the bill to?, to i says the post office, well don't they pay you for having their telephone ah, did she?, and what did you say? all that i said no, i wished they did but it's yeah, does she use it a lot? i dunno she don't her and her pictures when she makes her pictures went to doctor today mum did you? went to doctor about me neck, you know yeah and she said it could of been well is it? oh this awful pain coming i can't, move my arm and right side which is the side it hurts, and it goes all up here and it really hurt me to wash my hair, to bend over and wash my hair this morning cos she said oh you went over then? i said to her i had it in and she said that, er you're gonna have to come out cos i'm gonna hoover up in a minute what did i do?, and i said i think i could of got it when i was in the car with uncle reg and he, you know how mad he goes along the lanes yeah and he pulled off quick oh, was that what it was and it jerked your head? and it jerked me, but she said it's a muscle been pulled and it's, it keeps spasm so she said er, could of been nasty, said i daren't tell him, cos i says if i tell him it was his fault, i says he'll never give me another ride, it's again thursday night coming back, and his car, you know the car kept, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump yeah and then friday morning i was off with rightio but she's given me some deep cream, she says these spasms she not no she, he doesn't smell oh erm, she made me bend my head and i could only bend it a little way and she could see the spasms oh what are spasms? like twinges of pain she said you don't have to bend my head not too bad,collar i am yeah, but for you not to be able to bend your head oh yeah that far down and your head to be able to clear some days i can bend alright, it don't hurt and other times i can't i've got to put this cream on twice a day er what can i do for my hand writing project nan? and she says it can be i've done like who'd like, mary had a little lamb, jack and jill went up the hill hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle, hickory dickory dock the mouse ran up the clock, one, two, three, four, five, once i caught a fish alive, just those,three times is this your homework? hand writing you don't have to do it though but that the, the, these are some things i've got, you don't have to answer them my name is emily what is your name?, how are you?, i'm fine, i like swimming, what do you like?, i have two sisters, two big sisters, i have no brothers, do you have any brothers?, and talk, talk slowly i am ten years old, how there, is, oh, how many years old are you?, i live with my mum dad, nan and my sisters, who do you live with?, and the class have what class are you in?, i've got the best teacher in the world, do you have a nice teacher?, i am a girl, are you a girl or a boy? correction , i've got the best teacher in the world eh, eh why, what's your teachers name? i've got lots of good teachers erm, poems, this i never thought she'd settle down in school like she did, did you? poem it called she has song with poem huh what did poem with song pardon didn't you thing i'd set on thursday, no, on thursday we get the last period off, then we come home, home early on thursday, monday's bank holiday so we don't have the school any school and erm, one day in may you're back with spill your drink all over my work no i'm not well monday is in may yeah, but not that day, another day another bank holiday near the end of may is there?, but we might get a day off in may any way i really don't know emily because i've never even heard of the work and i suggest you look at it in the dictionary oh sarah yeah what is? accostic accost, a, c sarah, why are you coming home early tomorrow? a c , a c o s t i r x why you coming home early tomorrow? we're not, it's not tomorrow it's wednesday, we get period one and two off so we only have half day yeah why's that? cos of english exams, i bet it, it won't oh could be that one i got you from er brentcross that's the teterous you mean a sorous yeah not a teterous it's a sorous no, she might not cos she's in a different year to us sarah, it's er mary's son plays it mummy, we're gonna have an english exam at the end of year eight and we're gonna well that's alright no it isn't we're gonna have, i mean, we're gonna have, as we go off we're gonna start giving talks and everything there's a careers then that's part that's part of our erm exam as well, oral presentations that's alright you'll enjoy that sarah oh i don't like doing all the speeches though pardon? i'm shy when do you have to do the first? we, that means i've got ex , it's because we don't have period one and two on wednesday, yeah, that means we've got extra time for our french test, i think it was on wednesday, extra time to practice so what time are you going to school wednesday?, you're home early wednesday anyway, is it really worth you going? or is it wednesday morning you have off? oh that's true, we only have erm, what, what do we have? oh you're hurting me will you keep still sarah, is it wednesday morning you have off? yeah wednesday morning one period, unless we go in after lunch, for well then you'll only be there fore no we don't we go in after break what do we have on wednesday for if it's raining tomorrow yeah what, what'd ya, what'd ya have, you've got french, english, so we have maths and t v and that's it have you been into the library yeah do you like it? no it's pretty why, what have they done? did you like it? yeah it still smells of paint i'll call for you, quarter past, right down,then? my dad, yes, when she's already gone. so we're well early today. i've brought him, i've brought him at half five, because i was at the bus stop, leaning on the lamp-post and it was about twenty five past, and then he didn't come along to the next stop by and it got to twenty five to did you, you went to the one that we usually go to? yes, not the one. yes, but i mean, you see when you walked up from your house, you didn't kate's one? the one that kate goes to sometimes. alright. michael is this, does this shirt look stupid? no, it's . i have to wear it too. would it be better like that? no no, thank you. kate was probably late again. walk to school with ella. anna? ella,we've got next week for our i know, he might still come in and collect it on wednesday, but you can just say that you left it home because we don't have english that day now. have you done it anyway? no oh, let me see your history please. windbag i need to put some more stuff on on course this term. what did you, did you do like a meal like chicken with potatoes and blaa, blaa, blaa, or did you just miss the foods. i just missed the foods. that's what i did. kate didn't. but it's, it's the way you interpret it, as she says it, i suppose. what you're really do. did you do any salads. yes, kind of. well kind of i've done it but, i want to do it again. i'm going to put some more stuff down for those. which ? put all i'll show you what i did if you want. it isn't much but er, i'll show you what i did, did you have the list in your book, of the foods? yes, but, not yes because like the ones down there, they've got like, your history mark's at the back. i did it like that. ah, that's good. oh, you've been yes, i did it because it, it's too, i put that there's too much , what did you put for starters? i put apples and bread all the breads , did you put anything else? erm, i just put vegetables. i put olives, oysters, smoked cheese, eggs and what about, what about your main meal? wild pig. why? because didn't you copy it out? tr ,sh , put some more down. i've got some up there. have you, have you got potatoes anywhere? no i've got potatoes in the main meal, like chicken and potatoes or something. all my has been the way it should. science, what one? my history. history? yes, i was going to say art i er, i can't, i don't know if i can use it or not. why? because, because it's like what? because it's not on t p s, and, and it was given, it was given to a great-aunt or something, and she hocked it off him. no, we're not going to put everything. well we said a new, an old she, she either used a painting or decorating i'm not ripping mine up. you're not ripping mine up. main meal, what would a ? don't read all of it, i'm here. it's alright, it's not as good as , goodbye . what's another main meal? i put main main what? main , i was supposed to put would be better than erm, you could put chicken with potatoes. i'm going to have my sandwich now. chicken with potatoes? yes what else was there? there was i can go and look at their one. no, no, no, no, wait, what other meat was there? a fishy thing yes, fish with wasn't it? why not put grilled fish. what? grilled fish fish with whatever that was. miquaman how do you spell it? m i q u a m a n they're my breakfast by the way. that's it. are you supposed to put the price? i haven't, no i didn't, i, i don't know what the prices would be anyway. i know. what do they use? what are the roman coins called? shall we go and have a look then? they've got some good things haven't they now? do they miss their food, or do they do meals? no they, they done like just like did everybody do it like that? i don't know. where's your badges? where is it? it's there. i like this one. what does jenny wish for it? the ostrich, we never did that. and er they x-rayed me, and took a urine sample, took a blood sample. er, the doctor chorlton? chorlton, mhm, he examined me, erm, he, he said now they were on about a slide on my heart. mhm, he couldn't find it. he said it could be anxiety or whatever at hospital, just, so, it's not going to be any, nothing to worry about. good i'm delighted to hear that. but he did say that, er, it'll take three weeks before he could and send along. you know, he sees it, he can see the biopsy and all that. yes he says that i might not need to get it, right, because, if, he can only tell half my blood. mhm so he says, he stopped right at the side of it right, yes. right, er, he also agreed with you about the lung and black, right, and he s , and he said the same as you that, erm, if it's got blood on you leave it alone. aye he told me that same as you. oh aye, to take it out, it's not, it's not sensible. ah. there we are young john. i got it with a , because hughie sold the sure, how are you doing with the, the drink. och, i have my good days and my bad days. how many good ones, and how many bad ones? today too many bad ones, i'm just glad to see you get off that top. no, keep it down as low as you can because, the lower you keep it the less chance of there is of getting this biopsy done. half of them going to x-ray my back, and the x-ray doesn't. oh, the two? they've done the lot, yes, front, back, side, yes, oh, aye. there you are john, i'll get you i was really worried about having this he's getting worse, i mean, see last night, we went to bed last night,have done it, i'm losing it, i'm losing it, i'll get i mummy well it'll have to be school dinners friday, is that what you've? yes, where's the hairbrush emily, where did you put it? table why the hell do you have to spill it everywhere? in this dish, well i moved this. did, did you put it on there to measure it out? you bozo. what have i done now? you're supposed to put it in there, because if it's up to there it's balancing. who's helping kate darling, and if as she was moving the box, she oh yes she did and i went like this, oh yours it too easy, it's silly. amy it looked down. what she had it here all the time? no, she had it on there. exactly that's stupid having it up there. you should put it there first and then taken them out. then you should move any obstacles before. we're going. oh, stop making fun of me. we'd better empty the whole kitchen then hadn't we? oh shut up you. there you go. where would you put my how much is there? i weighed you two ounces. i don't want two ounces. well put some back. i won't, i'll just eat them. two ounces is a lot to have of cereal. is it? for me, it is because i only have half of that. how many, how many are you supposed to have? well there , there's no set rule is there, it's like saying two, eight, eight cal , how tall is everybody supposed to be at the age of ten, that's stupid, that's really upset mum. just have what you want. well go, i think she's going to be shattered, i'd better wake up jo. oh, mummy. we people who must vote for the party if we are ever to win power again. so, adopt this report, give the thumbs down to those who want to break the links and support a wider form of democracy where the trade union is paying the levy is not only a valuable member of the party but is valued as well. we've heard the voice of the party professionals, we've heard the voice of the labour leadership, now let's all speak on behalf of the ordinary trade unionists and say with all the force that is necessary on behalf of those millions, men and women, young and old, we support the party, we pay for the party, we have a right to democracy in the party because never forget it is our party too, i move. hear, hear. prue , southwestern region speaking on behalf of the c e c. president, congress, i am very pleased to second this c e c statement on how we can strengthen and modernize the links between the labour party and trade unions. some people in the labour party seem to believe that labour will be better off without the unions. they don't seem to feel that the democratic organizations of working people are relevant to the new model labour party. the truth is that union members are the backbone of the labour party. we provide the party with its broad base, we keep it on its feet and when necessary we keep those feet firmly on the ground. labour needs members more than ever to help form policies relevant to ordinary people and to get those policies across. most labour supporters in unions played an active part in the last general election and county elections. we put up posters, we persuaded work colleagues to vote labour and we made financial contributions. instead of closing the door o to its union supporters, labour should be opening up new ways in. it's not good enough to say that union members can only participate if they become full members of the party. i'm a labour party member and i would urge as many people as possible to join in, but i also recognize that many people feel membership demands the time and commitment that they haven't got. they fear endless meetings and worry that they don't know enough to join in. these barriers are especially strong for women and younger people. but the same union members who don't want full membership are particularly keen on other forms of involvement, like voting for labour's leaders and helping to select parliamentary candidates. we should listen to how people actually want to make a contribution and base our structures on their views, instead of rather male structures which demand substantial commitment. the proposals in this statement do just that. they will ensure that we all continue to have a say in labour's decisions and i urge you to support them. thanks very much indeed, prue. composite twenty nine, labour party trade union and links, midland region to move, london region to second. president, congress. les , midlands and east coast region, moving composite twenty nine. one member, one vote sounds very democratic, doesn't it? why is it that some general secretaries of certain unions are pushing us down the path of severing our links? maybe it is because they don't want to fulfil their financial commitments. well, if that's the reason they should at least be honest about it. at a recent meeting with members of the shadow cabinet and trade union leaders, one high profile shadow cabinet member argued for, one member, one vote. when asked how he would fund the labour party he said, oh, we would still expect you to pay. it seems to me that the trade unions are welcomed with open arms whenever money is needed and yet some don't want us to participate. comrades, instead of severing our links, we should be strengthening them. remember why the labour party was formed. don't let us do the tory's work for them by tearing ourselves apart. i'll tell you what comrades, i'm sick to death of some people in the party shying away from association with us. they seem to be ashamed of their roots. don't they realize we're a part of the same movement? let me tell you, i don't want anyone making excuses for me, i'm proud to be a trade unionist and i'm proud to be a socialist. you know comrades, it's time we stopped pretending to be something we're not. this is what we believe in and we are proud of it and maybe, just maybe, we would start winning elections instead of losing them. we are going through a crucial period. what this tory government intends to do is see total destruction of the trade union movements. we have to make sure in this trade union and labour movement that because there will be struggles ahead, this has to be one that is foremost in our minds. this conference has to give a message to jo john smith to maintain union links, to strengthen them, not destroy them. our party is about morolity morality, morality and justice and truth and it's about representing our class, that's what we have got to get back to to win the next election. congress, i move. morning, dave , london region, second in the composite twenty nine. they say a week in politics is a long time and i now know what they mean. i came to congress with my contribution to this debate firmly fixed in my own mind, but unsure of the view of the leadership of our union, given the views quoted to them in the press as their own. my own view is that the fate of working people, the trade unions and the labour party are one and the same and that any attempt to weaken links between us condemns us all to the same failure. the trade unions depend on effectively representing working people in industrial field for their survival and the labour party has to represent the trade unions for their survival in the political field. i do not feel therefore, there is any crime for the trade union role in, in the constitutional procedure of the party, whether it be selecting candidates or voting at conference, indeed i feel it is the strength of the movement. which do the so called modernizers of the party prefer, a party of two hundred thousand rift with division and on minority issues or a stable party with the input of four million working people? you tell me which is more democratic. like many i have supported this union's policy my c l p, but also like many i have been hurt and angered by the attempts of some of the party, both nationally and locally to deride and belittle the unions as a thing of the past and not relevant to the party's new media image and that working class issues were not worth presenting at elections because they are unpopular with the tabloids. the modernizers have had their chance. this union has been more than tolerant with them. we offered them on the basis of them creating a mass membership party. this they have plainly not been able to do and yet they still try and bounce us along the same old route through their friends in the media. for many of us, even the options of support registers and levy plus, are schemes whether they are dubious starters. we feel it is now right and proper that the debate is to be had and that our roots, our heritage and our future are defended on our terms and in our forums and not in the editorials of sunday newspapers, and as for les people's letters to the newspapers, and kinnock and co saying to people, individual members, why should the labour party not trust you with the choice of your candidate, it is you who do the work to get them elected, who are they kidding? what did we do at the election, did we sit on our arses? no, it was our members out there, and this letter is typical of the contempt with which they seem to hold our members. we are not just here to be leaflet and voting fodder for professional politicians, we are here to take a part in our party, and we will defend that right. i second the composite. well said that. motion three nine six, lancashire region, g m b, parliamentary panel. duncan , lancashire region, moving motion three nine six. congress, the erm, nineteen eighty three, the gang of four, ten years on, nineteen ninety three. perhaps what we're seeing is the emergence of a gang of five. we saved the party in nineteen eighty three, the g m b saved the party in that er,a crisis time th with the formation of the s d p and today the tory government on its knees, staggering along and we have some people in the leadership of the party and including, we can name them now, somebody's written,writte written to all the constituencies, neil kinnock, who have given up the ghost of labour ever winning again, and that's what's the base and the root of what's going on, that's why they want these proposals going through, they want to separate the trade unions from the party so they can do a deal with the liberals because they've given up. tha that's the reality of the situation, as i see it and people in my constituency dun duncan you are on three nine six by the way are ya? yep. oh. you told me three, nine, six. yes, no i was just wondering, that's all. yep, i'm gonna get there ti the clock is running very fast duncan. right, okay, so the situation we're in today is that we're actually got to defend our party, the party is the whole labour movement, from that political direction in which the leadership or ex-leadership and some people in the parliamentary party seem to want to take us. i'm very active in the party in manchester and er would support the union and the region er, as a constituency er constituency member and i, you know, spend hours every week trying to ke keep this, keep the party in manchester going and i think that what we've actually got, what we're seeing inside the parliamentary party, are a number of people who seem to have forgotten who they're supposed to be representing. i think what we actually want is more people who are more in tune with working people and their hopes, and their dreams and their aspirations, and tha in, in parliament, in the house of commons than we've got at the moment and so the motion i'm putting forward which is to propose that we actually look at the parliamentary panel and make sure we get a few decent shop stewards in the house of commons, a few people who got experience of actually being on the shop floor, a few people who got experience in the last fourteen years, that the last four conservative governments have actually tried and defend and fight for the interests of working people right down the grass root, those are the people that we actually need in the house of commons and we shall be looking at our parliamentary panel and we shall be looking at it very seriously to ensure that we get those sort of people onto that parliamentary panel and those sort of people into the house of commons, that's the best way to represent working people in britain today and that's the sort of contribution the g m b should be making. i move. i'm here again, dick. dave , lancashire region. last time today. we're talking about three nine six g m b parliamentary panel dick and i'll just have to follow duncan, he had his little rhetoric on the labour party that he's he believes in so much. well, i also believe, as i said earlier, that we should have p mps who represent the g m b about mps who represent theirselves, for what they can get out of it, what kudos they can get out of it, but leave the activists to do all the work for 'em, to do all the work. therefore if we have activists who are put on the panel alib fi safe seats, marginals or unwinnable seats and we've been in some areas where it's been unwinnable, haven't we dick, we've still canvassed, we've got the votes up,p places like macclesfield where they got nicholas winterton, where they got that racist churchill. we've still been there. but eventually we're gonna get people in, if the c e c take up our recommendations from manchester's one one five branch, that we're gonna get people who represent the members of the g m b, the working class, the people that we want to be represented. with the parliamentary panel now, as it says on the motion, there's a lot up for retirement. there'll be a lot of people vying for those places as well. i also have seen in oldham near where i live, where an mp was imposed on that was held by lamont for twenty two years, lived in aberdeen i think it was, came to oldham once a week to do his surgery and they put somebody in from the t n g. don't know how it happened, but he got there and he lives in london now. oldham about must be the only place where the l mps have never seen the town. why not get people that is activists and oldham might well the branch for oldham you've got dave from stockport they've got a mp retiring, they're getting on now, you've had, we've had your time now, for god's sake go you've been there long enough, let's get the activists in, let's get g m b members and let's get this parliament back to what it should be and not the tories. thank you. right colleagues, i now propose to go round the regions and invite regional speakers on the labour party trade union links er document, liverpool, do you wish to put a speaker in? and if it is the intention of regions to put speakers on, especially those regions that are situated at back of congress, if the speakers could come to the front it would save a great deal of time. alan , liverpool, north wales and irish region. president, congress. liverpool and north wales support this document. unfortunately colleagues, colleagues from london, from northern ireland sorry, have no say. sorry about that lads. mind you there's a lot of northern ireland lads in london anyway, erm we think that when our members voted to return the political levy they also voted to continue to have a say in the running of the labour party. the labour party was set up by the trade unions and is still funded by the trade unions. the labour party front bench must realize that the ordinary trade union members voted, as i said before, for a say in the party. we'll need to go back to them again shortly. will they vote in the same way if their right to have a say is taken away from them? as i said before, two thirds of our regions support the document. midland region. peggy , midland, east coast region, speaking to the c e c statement. the labour party was founded in the nineteen hundreds. after a decision of the trade union congress which brought together trade unions and socialist societies. the financial strength that the trade union link has brought to the labour part party is vital. to the functions of the party itself, therefore trade unions provide the labour party with resources in money and organizational support. britain is virtually the only country in western europe where there is not now substantial state finance for our pol a polit political parties. the trade unions are directly linked to more than eight million people. the union membership leads to a ten percent h h higher like likelihood of voting labour. the misleading public image of the unions and the role within the labour party is encouraged by the tories and the liberal deb democrats and their friends, the mass media. there can be no justification for the comments we have heard from certain leaders of right wing er trade unions, who wish to take away the very principle of what we're talking about, the block vote, especially one, when one of 'em, allegedly, who haven't even bothered to pay their contributions to the general election fund. and i'm certainly not prepared to take any advice from them, when they can't even pay their way in the labour party. so why should we pander to the media and the right-wingers of the party? the labour party cannot and will not survive without the affiliation of the trade union movement. what the right-wingers are saying is that we will have the trade unions' money but we will not give 'em the right to vote. well i say to them, they can go to hell. i'm a socialist,i but it's a swear word now, well i am proud to be a socialist so i will stand up and be counted. we support the views arrived at by the c e c, we should be proud of our title the labour party and shout from the hi highest rooftops where we live and work. the media campaign mentioned yesterday should be put in into operation immediately. diluting our principles will not get us elected to power. midland and east coast regions support the document. congress, we ask you to do likewise. thank you. whilst the, the london region speakers come into the rostra i'll just make the point, peggy in fact is only the third women that's spoken this morning. i know that we've a long way today er to go today but would you just bear that in mind colleagues. right ed. congress, president. ed , westminster trade union political staffs branch, london region. speaking against one member, one vote but also speaking against the half-hearted document that has been put out by the c e c. before starting comrades i think it's time that we nailed a couple of lies that are being put about, about this union and other trade unions. the first is that we're two disparate organizations, the labour party and the g m b. well i'm gonna prove that's not the case. could all labour party members in the audience, in the delegations, put their hands in the air please. labour party members. there you go comrades, every, nearly every single delegate is a labour party member. we are the labour party. eh, that was clever. that was very clever. the spin doctors around the lad labour leadership have claimed that the links need to be changed. well, like most of you i spent four weeks during the general election out on the doorstep. i was in mitchenham more than a marginal, which sadly the tories retained and my own seat in wantage, which also is a safe tory seat. not once was it mentioned, not once the links between labour and the unions, nobody was interested. they were though interested in some of our policies which they weren't very happy with, but that seems to be ignored at the moment. what i would like to see colleagues is a slight change. stop listening to people, such as mr kinnock, who has now written out to c l ps telling them that they should be changing the way that the unions are linked to this labour party, not at all. it's time that they looked at themselves. they've lost four times and they should be asking themselves why. it's not the union movement that's lost the elections. what i would like to see now is a turn, sorry turning to the document what i would like to see is actually a change of direction. what we are looking to do here is to water down what we have at the moment. i don't think that's necessary. the register of supporters wouldn't work. can you imagine it comrades, you would have a position in which we attempt to put into place a bureaucratic list of people who are meant to be labour supporters, they aren't labour members. i can see the problems now, people come up to you and whisper in your ear, how comes he's on the list, i saw him going into the liberal club or the tory club the other day, he's not a labour supporter. no, it's not a good idea at all, we should stick with what we have at the moment, the representation of people who opt to pay the political levy. that is the sensible way forward. moving on, another suggestion is that we should ballot our members about who we vote for as m for mps and also for the leader of the party. well that's fine, but why should it be down to thirty percent? we represent over four million levy paying members, the trade unions that is, and it's only right that they should have a proper say in the election of the lad labour leader, not just the thirty percent as is being suggested here. comrades, it's time that this union, along with other trade unions, made it absolutely clear to the labour leadership, we are the labour party, it is us that gives resources, our time, our money, everything to try and get them elected and it's time they stopped kicking us in the teeth at times such as this. i move that we reject this report and that we have proper links with the labour party. thank you. g m b scotland president, comrades. ian , g m b scotland. if what gerald said in his address to congress yesterday that he knows of no labour mp who wants to break the links between the party and the unions were absolutely true then there would be no need for this debate today. but the harsh reality is that that is not the case. for the last fourteen years the trade union movement has shouldered the blame for the labour party's dismal showing in the general elections. the press blamed us for labour's defeat, the tories blamed us for labour's defeat and now it looks as thought the labour party is blaming us for labour's defeat. what an appalling state of affairs. the labour party and the trade union movement are bonded together because we share the same objectives. we both fight for social justice, we both strive for a better quality of life for our people and most importantly we both demand equality. the trade union movement can't succeed on its own, the labour party would most definitely fail without us. president, the movement has taken a luckily approach in the political er arena for a number of years now. we've been made to feel ashamed of our actions, of the past. we've been accused of screwing employers into the ground by our demands. shameful, i'll tell ya what's shameful. the actions of hoover and its attempts to undermine the wages and conditions of union members. the disgraceful way ordinary, moderate men and women have been sacked at timex and the way this government cheapened the working man and woman in this country by rejecting the social charter and by portraying britain as a low wage economy. that's what's shameful in our society and it's only the labour party in unison with our movement that can right the wrongs of the past fourteen years. comrades, what we are asking of the party is quite simple, the extension of democracy. what everybody must realize is this, the trade union movement is the meat on the labour party's bones and without us the party would be a skeleton, lost in a political wilderness. president, i'd like to finish with a mo much publicized phrase, from a political skeleton and the labour party should take heed, we are, we are thick, we are well, we are here and we are staying. i support. hear, hear. southwestern region. twenty years ago i joined the labour party when i was eighteen years old which gives an idea of how old i am now. that was before i was working, before i was a trade union member. for eight years i was a county councillor having won a seat from the conservative party. throughout that period i've canvassed for the labour party, i've campaigned for the labour party, i've argued for the labour party and one of the items that made me join the labour party and one of the items i got other people to join the labour party was that labour was a mass party, because it consisted of hundreds of thousands of individual members and it consisted of millions of trade unionists. that was the pe appeal to me, that it represented the labour movement, it represented the working class at large. i've argued that for twenty years, now suddenly overnight it's become unfashionable and let's make it clear why it's become unfashionable. it's become unfashionable because the media is now looking at an alternative scapegoat for the problems the conservative party, that's why it's a reason and what is arising from the labour leadership at the moment is purely an attempt to placate the media. congress, i joined the labour party and i became a socialist, i remain a member of the labour party, i remain a socialist, i'm a trade unionist, i won't give up my labour party membership and i won't give up my involvement to my trade union and my linkage between the trade union movement and the labour party without a fight. i support this ma er motion. southern region. southern region, wanna put a speaker in? okay. mickey southern region. president, congress. supporting in the c e c statement and labour party trade union links. what is there to say er what's not been said already yesterday, today, last year's meetings and in the last ten years. we are here pash passing motions, not to tell the tus or the employers what went wrong, what's wrong. no, we're telling the government, we're telling them they've got it wrong excuse me. every working person, every unemployed person, every pensioner knows only too well they've got it wrong. it's not the fat cats we gotta take notice of, who steal the cream and leave us with the sil sour milk even. president, we don't need on our door. let's tell the world they've got it wrong. don't they know that. poverty, low pay,repossessions, crimes, hardships. you're staying in portsmouth, spending a lot of cash, or generally we do. how much of that goes back into tory funds, through the businesses, shops, the places you're staying? they don't ask your permission, if you wish that money to go into tory funds. they want to stop our political levy and only half of the tory funds is answerable for, from where they get it. if i can go onto the local theme a little, chair. crime, in the first six months of portsmouth in the residential areas on the outskirts, not in the town centre, five hundred and eighty break-ins into houses, eighty seven break-ins into houses. a hundred and thirty one of those were people who were out to work or unoccupied. thirty seven of those were through doors what were left open or windows what were left open. openg opportunity to just get a few bob. car crime, nine hundred and sixty cars so far this year have been broke into in the portsmouth, bearing in mind yours are around the town. three hundred and seven of 'em are stolen, ninety one still not been repossessed. twenty percent, twenty five percent of the crime committed em nationally, is by people under the age of sixteen. twenty five percent, again, of sixteen to twenty five years old. not much hope of a job, not much chance of a million young people who are trying to find cash or work, a waste of skills, a whole generation. nearly one out of three sixteen year olds are without work, not much for the tory law and order. now you hear more cuts in the d s s, medical prescriptions, v a t on heating, light, more crime for cash. our national income per head is lower than the french, it's falling below that on hong kong. every month twenty thousand manufacturing jobs go. john, to get to the point, we've had a bus in portsmouth plastered with g m b slo slogans, a talking point of portsmouth for the last fortnight. what a good talking point, people didn't know what the g m b was, didn't know what they actually truly stood for with all the publicity what we do, all the good work we do lately, locally. let's get the message over, let's go without one congress and i know that's near to john's heart and request the other unions, a e u, u c a t, t n g, request the t n, t u c to do the same and then plaster over every bus in britain, the g m b's policy. let's get labour in, let's get our motion starting to work, let's keep the labour party trade union link, it's our only friend we've got in parliament. for better conditions, less crime, a better britain and the way ahead, southern support. northern region. here's billy. alright billy. billy northern region. president, colleagues. i have over the years many times come to the rostrum but for the first time it gives me no pleasure at all in saying what has to be said. not so long ago the labour was singing the praises of the trade union movement, especially the g m b, yet, only last night on t v a shadow minister, david said the g m b were wrong in what they were doing, they should be behind john smith. i thought only tories done u-turns. because we have all heard john smith in the past say, i would rather lose an arm than lose the support of the g m b. colleagues, in the words of chief sitting bull man with pale face speaks with forked tongue. remember colleagues, it was our union under the leadership of will thorn that pushed for and formed the labour party. we should not allow john smith and his hitmen to take it from us. for fourteen years we have been bashed by the tories, we have been led by a pound of poof t u c and as now it's time to stand up and be counted. if the labour party, if the labour party want our money then we want some influence and we don't, and we, and if they don't want to represent the views of our members they can do without our money. the link with labour has got to be more than just signing a cheque. you might ask what does it cost the g m b, with affiliation fees, etcetera etcetera etcetera, around three million a year. over the last fourteen years forty two million pounds and if they go on the way their going on and the way they're talking it's all gonna be for nicks nowt . just think, colleagues, what we could have done with forty two million pounds, we could have had a conference twice a year not the biannual conference they're on about. our, our minimum demand colleagues must be one, a reformed if electoral college for a selection of leader and for candidates, to a continual role for trade unions at conference. it makes me wonder colleagues, why this issue has been promoted lately. do some politicians deliberately wish to provoke conflict amongst us and it's not just about money, many g m b members volunteer. we've had the speakers up here saying that they're going out, they're knocking on doors, so you know, it's not just about money, but i tell you what if they go on in the way they're going on there's no way joe bloggs is going out quite tonight on a vote night saying come out and give us your vote. that's all gonna be finished an'all, man. and there'll be plenty like me. this morning, this morning you know, i'm right up with the news isn't i? this morning john smith says he is saddened by john 's remarks, he thinks it will give some material to john major, i've got news for him, many times i've been saddened when he's said nowt to john major when all the clangers he's dropped. so, they don't want us to have a say in the labour party. there's nobody,nobody can tell me that the big national companies who pour money into the tory fund, that they don't have a say in their policy. who do they think they're kidding ? i'll tell you another thing, whatever the spitting images say about john he pays his money, he doesn't grab his bermuda shorts and a wristwatch and fly off to the sunny islands. colleagues, colleagues, let me remind you once more, they need us more than we need them. g m b members should be always full members, no influence, no penance for our members, no way. it's our party and we should not give up without a fight. thank you. well done, billy. er. lancashire. follow that, duncan. yeah, i can't i'm not going to attempt to. duncan , lancashire region, supporting the er t the c e c statement. i mean it's quite clear isn't it what we wa we want a party of labour, we're organized, we're organized mass organization that speaks for almost a million people in this union, i don't but er, almost a million people. we're speaking for working people in this country and we are a reliable indicator of the feelings, the dreams, the hopes of working people right across the country and any party that attempts to divorce itself from an organization such as ours, that attempts to speak for working people will lose its way. at the same time,d the tories are on their knees, some people, as i said earlier, i think it's just as relevant in this debate, seem to have lost their way and when you took, look at what they're proposing in terms of say, the er the fifty percent, the, the er m ps, fifty percent of the votes for er the parliamentary leader which of course is very consistent with , right, fifty percent of the vote, you take that along with proportional representation and what i believe you're seeing is the number of people who have given up the ghost and are preparing to restructure the party around coalition politics, and that's where they're heading, and they're heading completely in the wrong direction because we're more in tune with what's going on in this country, the po opinion polls are saying fifty nine percent of the people actually i think, believe that er the labour government is possible and will be voting for a labour government, the alternative road is to oblivion and it's not about modernizing, the people who're proposing this coalition politics aren't modernizers, they're victorian politics, that's what they're about, they're about taking us back, back before we created the party, before we learnt the lesson that we needed to represent ourselves politically, they're going back to, let's skil see what we get out of the liberals, the free trade liberals, in the nineteenth century, that's where they're going back, that's not about modernization, real modernization is about making sure that the labour party speaks for the working people up and down this country and that's our contribution to make to that party and therefore we should have a role in decision making and influencing the party that enables us as an organization to express that feeling, and that understanding of what people actually want in this country, and that's why we're supporting the c e c proposals. now, there's an, there's an alternative being put forward as a compromise, but a a compromise isn't a compromise, the compromise as it looks er involving us, and we're all party members, as already indicated, as individuals and saying top up, let's top up, we're already paying aren't we, the political levy, let's pay a bit more, right, is actually one that reduces our input as an organization. now i supported prescott, i must say i voted for him for the er for deputy leader, right, but i think he's wrong, right, on this particular issue, this compromise that he's floating and i think it should be dropped. i think we should be going with the c e c proposals and we should maintain our influence and our role in the party as a collective organization, a mass organization, of over eight hundred thousand members and will be steadily rising in the foreseeable future. i support on behalf of lancashire region. thanks duncan. yorkshire region president, congress. dave , yorkshire and north derbyshire region speaking in support of the c e c sta statement. colleagues, one hundred years ago in bradford trade unionists and socialists got together to form the independent labour party which was the forerunner of the labour party as we know it today. in those days although there were some independent groups of radicals and others of no elite, allegiance the two main parties in parliament were the whigs and the tories. very few mps were interested in the wor working people's demand. trade unionists knew that they could only achieve a limited level of their ambitions through industrial means and they realized that they needed working class mps to support them in parliament. they knew that they needed to form a political party that have three main aims, the need for working class m ps, the need for an independent party to represent working people, the need for a to propagate new socialist ideals. the party was formed for those reasons. since then, by working together we have achieved many of our aims. unfortunately, most of them bo achievements are now under threat. old age pensions, compensation for accidents and injuries at work, free education for all children, the national health service, legislation regarding unfair dismissal and the nationwide public transport. after fourteen years of tory rule all these and many other achievements are seriously threatened. we have already experienced the abolition of free eye and dental checks, we are suffering from the creeping privatization of the health service, the selling off of our water, our crumbling schools, and yet we have to concentrate on the issue of trade union, labour party links. trade unionists did not lose labour the last election. quite the opposite. once again the trade unions working individually and through the trade unions for labour pulled out all the stops to try and secure a labour victory. i am not convinced that this issue should be on the political agenda at all, not at this time, not at any time, in fact i am pretty convinced that this is a tory agenda, a media agenda, why they do they not want to talk about crooks and spivs that support them, that donate thousands of pounds into their coffers? they want to set our agenda. they want to create a division in our ranks. it is the oldest trick in the book, divide and conquer. we accept modernization, we understand that the card or the block vote is one of the most misunderstood aspects of labour party procedure. it is criticized by the tories and the media and of course they never explain how it works, so it is not surprising that the general public is suspicious of it. the g m b is a progressive union, we can support constructive change but we cannot support any changes that will disenfranchise ourselves from our party. remember, the labour party was formed for working people because we had an unsympathetic tory government. all the top jobs were taken by people from privileged backgrounds. there was an enormous gap between the rich and the poor, nothing has changed. interestingly enough larry witty, the general secretary of the labour party, said at last year's labour party conference that if it had not been for the steadily, steady influence of the unions during the eighties, when the party was tearing itself in two, we would not have a labour party today. a recent g m b poll showed that sixty nine percent of people thought the unions should support labour to balance big biglifs big business and what a major balancing act that is. the shipping and construction group p & o gave a hundred thousand pounds to the tory election fund. public relations company shanwick gave the same. defence contractors rolls royce gave sixty thousand pounds, while united newspapers, owners of the express and the star upped their donation last year. these people have the audacity to question our links, our legitimate links with our party. colleagues, we must ensure that the links are strengthened and not weakened. too many people, the old, the young and the unemployed, working people in all occupations do not maintain our bond. remember why the labour party was formed, remember who formed it, nothing has changed. thank you. birmingham region president, congress. rose , birmingham region and i make it very clear on the onset that our region is having a free vote on this because we haven't had the opportunity to discuss the document and therefore what i'm saying is purely my own views. the statement before us on the labour party and the trade union links sets aside various recommendations on how we are going to cast our block vote at this year's labour party conference on this issue the options open to us are listed in this paper and i'd like to make the following observations. we as a trade union have been in the forefront of campaigning and supporting the labour party, not just as, in its election battle, but in attempting to modernize the party's thinking, the party administration, be it on the issue of quotas for women, on policy making, on finances and on the block vote. the g m b should be proud of this role, however politics and negotiations are all about compromise and not about head-on collisions and we try and avoid these as much as possible. therefore i believe we can still arrive at a compromise on the options in the statement. let's look at the recommendation of the c e c on the selection of parliamentary candidates. they suggest we support a reformed electoral college for the next round of selection, every transition towards the use of the register of labour supporters for subsequent selection. i think we should say here and now that we support option one b, registered supporters as a compromise. i say this because i believe that those constitutional issues have to be decided once and for all at this year's party conference. we shouldn't adopt stands that we try this now and try something else next time round, which i believe is what the c e c is recommending. turning now to the c e c recommendation on the election of the labour party leader and deputy leader. i support the recommendation of five b but the vote by trade unions and socialist societies should be a ballot of registered labour supporters. president, congress, the introduction in the c e c statement is a laudable one and part of it states, and i quote, the g m b and others have asserted that reform means democratizing and strengthening the links by giving direct votes to individual union members. we as activists hold very special the important role trade unions have played in the labour party and feel that we have a continued role to play. however, in the need to arrive at a compromise and not to have full blown confrontation, a register of labour supporters is the answer. at least that way i shall feel more confident that it's labour party members and supporters who are selecting candidates and electing the leader and deputy leader of the labour party and not a liberal or tory trade unionist who happens to be paying the political levy. thanks very much indeed rose. i am now gonna call the general secretary to respond briefly to the debate, colleagues. well colleagues, there are couple of points that were raised that i think need a response. the last was rose's comment about the register. yeah, well the trouble with the register was that er, when it was put forward, and it was put forward by tom burlison and tom sawyer of , er and they worked very, very hard, no one harder than tom burlison, to try to establish this possibility as a compromise to avoid the sort of conflicts that we're talking about at the moment. it wasn't our best position, but the supporters of o m o v wouldn't listen, wouldn't consider and you've heard tom's record of those sad events, and of course then we were told that the party leader says it would be administratively impossible to put the register in place this year in any event. so, that's why we went back to the reformed electoral college. ed , i think argued a very strong case for a greater level of influence of trade unionists in the party than is suggested in this reform and i can see the force of those remarks but the c e c adopted the position that we did not want to take a position of dominance to the party conference. we wanted levy payers to have a say but a say within the broad sweep of labour party opinions. we deliberately went for a position of responsibility and moderation in this argument, where if i may say so, some other people haven't put the same constraints on themselves. two further points, dave expressed it best, i think. the supporters of o m o v have put their arguments in what can only be said to be a ham-fisted and insulting way. they may have been intending to talk about reform of the labour party constitution, but what ordinary trade unionists heard was senior members of the party talking as if they were ashamed of the trade union connection. that was what came through and that's what we all deplore. people are gonna have to work very hard to repair that damage. secondly, and a slightly personal comment, one front- bencher was asked, er, about my comments in opposition to o m o v and in favour of trade union participation and he said john edmunds is expressing his views, they are not the views of g m b members. well, are you listening gordon, now you know. so colleagues, support the report, support composite twenty nine, support the motion, because never forget, it's our party too. thank you colleagues. colleagues, we'll take the vote now. all the in favour of the c e c statement would you please indicate? against? that's carried. all those in favour of composite twenty nine? against? that's carried. all those in favour of motion three nine six? against? that's carried. thanks very much indeed colleagues, and can i congratulate congress for that particular debate. there is no other organization within the movement that could provide such a level of debate on this particular matter. thank you very much and congratulations colleagues. we now turn to four motions in respect of the labour party motion three nine four, three nine nine, motion four o two and motion four o three. so n can i now call motion three nine four, representation at labour and t u c conferences, g m b scotland to move. would the other speakers please come down to the front. president, comrades, er ian , g m b scotland, moving motion three nine four. er, president i'm going to say the time factor and i'll try to be as brief as possible. when apologize colleague, just one second, i do apologize for, for cutting in, but colleagues if you're, if it's your intention to leave congress for a few moments please do it as quietly as possible. colleague. er, thanks president. er, let me apologize if the motion appears a little vague. what is being asked is this. when elected delegate for region to the t, t u c in the labour party conferences is not enough. the representation at labour and t u c conferences does not reflect a lay representative organization which we are supposed to be. i was a constituency delegate till last year's labour party conference and i was absolutely astonished to see so many people from head office floating around the conference floor. national officers, national secretaries, research officers, other personnel from head office were a large part of the delegation not always around when important votes were being taken. president, having bums in seats has never been more important, well attended conferences. to ensure a wider democratic representation at conferences urge the c e c to look seriously at the situation and report back next year. i move. motion three nine four seconded. is it seconded, formally seconded? thanks very much. motion three nine nine. labour local authorities, london region to move. john , london region, moving motion three nine nine, labour local authorities. the debate we've just had on labour party links raises questions, er, we believe about our attitude, our attitude, the union's attitude to the party, the labour party when it does hold power, which of course it does, er locally in some areas of this country. this motion is about labour party accountability to our own union members and not about our accountability to a handful of m ps, so whatever the result of the er particular, er labour party links debate we've just had, it's still important to consider the practical er effects of the link we have with the labour party locally. i'm happy to see that the attitude of the c e c and of the general secretary has changed radically, i would say, since last year, when it and they opposed the liverpool motion, which also called for accountability of labour councillors and m ps. and it's now, the c e c is now, and the general secretary is now, rightly so, calling loudly for proper accountability from all levels, er of the party organization. whether we get it or not's another matter. this motion seeks at least to, to obtain some of that accountability. liverpool city council last year sacked hundreds of g m b members. industrial tribunals as we heard yesterday from ian have decided they were wrongly dismissed and that indicates the standard of the union locally but poses the question of why it was impossible for our officials, from the general secretary downwards, to effect any influence whatsoever on the attitude of liverpool city council. the same question, that lack of influence on labour authorities who are behaving like the worst tory employers, has to be posed in relation to a number of situations throughout the country. for example, and the general secretary was giving examples yesterday so i'm entitled to do one as well , for example , islington council, where a direct labour organization that had successfully survived and grown through the worst of the thatcher years and the worst of the thatcher attack on public services has now fallen victim to a combination of a weak and corrupt labour council and an incompetent senior management. hundreds of workers have been sacked, the convener and deputy convener victimized, while millions of pounds went out to private contractors. now, there's nothing new for people who work for labour authorities and local authorities in general in that story, new at all. what's different about it is that we possess, the g m b london region, possess sworn statements from managers and ex chief officers that conclusively demonstrate that what the trade union has been saying all along, what the g m b's been saying all along, about victimization, financial mismanagement and corruption, have in ta in fact taken place. that's what those sworn statements say. even with this kind of evidence, even with that kind of evidence, almost uniquely good evidence in my experience, the council leadership, which is in, has been in possession of it for the best part of a month has made no move to suspend any chief officer on charges of gross misconduct, which of course if it had been any of our members accused of something like that, they'd have been down the road instantly, nor has it reinstated any worker wrongly sacked. so, it'll be another liverpool. industrial tribunals may make that decision but the islington council certainly isn't going to. furthermore jack , larry , terry , the secretary of the greater london labour party, have also been in possession of this evidence, and before and after receiving that evidence have apparently completely failed over a period of eight months to get islington labour council to behave in a responsible fashion, just like liverpool, and i'm sure, just like a number of other labour councils. the question for us, whatever the situation about labour party links, is how long we can continue to argue for our members to support the labour party locally and nationally, to pay the political levy to a party that treats this union and treats union members with utter and absolute contempt. whatever the form of the link that is chosen at labour party conference, that ought to be top of our agenda. what is the party gonna do for us, not what are we gonna do for the party. i move. seconder for three nine nine? thanks very much. call the mover of motion four o two. labour party subscription contributions. midland region. , midland east coast region. president, congress. labour party contribution subscriptions. congress, as a strong labour party supporter and member for many years, and my father before me, i've always believed it to be the working man's party, created and born from the sweat and blood of our predecessors, and throughout many years supported and financed by the unions with our subscriptions and the political levy and i see it's supported by the trade unions. that does not mean that the labour party are run or ruled by the trade unions. we do have and will maintain the links and influence within the labour party, or it would not even survive without us. us meaning we, meaning our members, who voted to pay the political levy. us meaning we, our members paying the eighteen pound to join the labour party. us meaning we, our member attending a local party, c l ps, labour groups, etcetera. us, our members campaigning to secure councillors, mps getting elected. without any of us there would be no labour party. a party without influence, a party with opposition to even talk about. we must not let them forget where the party came from. to encourage recruitment is not to price out existing members, not to prevent a possible mass membership, and although we encourage our members to join, we encourage family and friends also. when we're given the price tag, eighteen pounds, that's a different matter. so this congress must pursue on our behalf, a serious approach to the labour party to reduce the price tag. how do we encourage membership when you openly deny them the right to vote? how can you survive without the political levy? how you can survive without those trade union subscriptions? the labour party is a party of the working class people. who are the people who do the campaigning, the leafleting in every election, in every national election? we the union are the back-up system as been said by previous speakers. i say to john smith, neil kinnock, gordon brown and the rest, the ones who put signature to paper on one member, one vote, remember all the elections in the past, remember sheffield. where does it come from, all the costs of those campaigns? whom does it come from? you want my money, you want my support, you want me to campaign for the future, you want me to recruit, then to get all of this reduce the cost of the subscriptions thus encouraging mass trade union membership. do not encourage people to stop paying the political levy, that is damaging itself. do not, by taking away their right to vote or participate in their policies and selections, you need the back-up teams of the trade unions in all its elections. you need the finances of the affiliations and the subscriptions. to survive, price it right, re-look at the priorities. you are damaging the labour party, you are jeopardizing any opposition to this, this present government, you're jeopardizing the future survival of the labour party. i have pleasure in moving motion four o two. john , midland and east coast region. president, congress. increasing the contribution rate is not the answer to gaining mass membership to the party. with party membership on the decline could one of the reasons for this be because of the cost? i haven't the answer to what an acceptable level of membership fee is but i'm certain an ever increasing rate will never generate a party of mass membership. the party is dependent upon its activists, no more so than at elections. can we afford for the activists to be priced out of the party? we all are aware that funds have to be generated but it, it causes a lot of membership. that other means of raising revenue will have to be looked for, i second. motion four o three, midland to move. john , midland and east coast region. president, congress. does the labour party recognize its members of longstanding? the answer is no. there is no automatic award given to its . a comrade in my local labour party branch joined the party more than sixty two years ago. we wanted to give him a gift to mark his membership. it was agreed that the secretary of the party would ask the party to inform us of any awards, plaques etcetera, that could be presented to recognize his length of membership. now it's started to get confused. a letter that relating to awards was received from the party. it stated, there is no reason why your long serving member should not be nominated for a merit award. unfortunately, we do not have any reason merit awards as such. with a reply like that it would have been a waste of time and effort to pursue the issue. we had to change direction. john prescott, mp for hull east was approached. john did the business for us. at a ceremony he presented a signed certificate recognizing the contribution and support to the party the member had given. i don't believe that anyone joins the party thinking that one day they will receive some token or award. most of us would be happy with a membership card. i move. ken , midland and east coast region. president, congress. seconding motion four o three. congress, this simply calls for the labour party, like the g m b and its experience yesterday in awarding like the gold badge to show and acknowledge long serving members with award of some sort of recognition. you can imagine the response a member would feel, actually receiving such a gesture. ask peggy, peggy , ask eric , we saw it, we heard it. how they felt yesterday receiving the gold, the gold badge. the length of service is on record at walworth road and it would not be of a great cost if you look at retaining membership who are real stalwarts of the party. i don't like it when people take monies from people and forget or pretend that we are the faceless people. just a thank you or the bill for next year's contribution. many of us put hours of our spare time attending labour party meetings, agms city party, labour groups and many more fringe meetings, all outside our normal days of work. those of us who are fortunate to be in work. so, in recognition of loyal service and commitment an award would not come amiss. i second motion. thank you. colleagues, the c e c are recommending acceptance and er, certainly in respect of several and reference on one motion and i call robert to put their view. thanks president. robert , g m b scotland, speaking on behalf of the c, c e c replying to motions three nine four, three nine nine and four o two and four o three. on three nine four er, the c e c is seeking reference back er, three nine four deals with g m b delegations to labour party and t u c. as the speaker indicated er, the c e c will not declare exactly what the intentions of the motions were but it's now, er now it's clear from the remarks of the speaker. the motion seeks to limit the number of full-time officials, in favour of the members. the proportion of full-time officials er, is already ro already low, for example, at last year's labour party conference, of seventy four delegates, sixty three were either c e c delegates or lay members elected from the regions. the remaining er, eleven erm, on the delegation were made up of general secretary, deputy general secretary, elected national officers and a few senior staff. these people were needed to give advice on policy and industrial matters. the c e c has no difficulty with the principle to restrict numbers of full-time officials er, that are required, however erm, i think we also want to take into account er, the developments that are referred to in the motion with respect of the labour party and if these developments take place we will obviously have to examine that before we come to any decision on the matter. er, motion three nine nine. the c e c support with er this qualification. er, accountability of local representatives is obviously supported but we should not limit that demand only to g m b er councillors or councillors who have g m b connections. it is the view of the c e c that all labour councillors and all labour councils should be demanded to consult on reorganization, redundancy and redeployment and improving of services and i know that the national section secretary, mick is already compiling a list of g m b councillors which will no doubt help in trying to er, ensure that that particular motion meets its objectives in the coming year. motion four o two, the c e c accepts the basic aim of four o two, that is of increasing labour party membership. er, i would ask delegates to bear in mind that trade union members can already join er, on the youth rates er, obviously an extension of that scheme would be welcome and is welcomed by the c e c. however, and it is a view of the c e c that although the current level of contributions,contributions is high, it is not the only barrier to mass membership, i don't intend to go into a list of other reasons why some people choose not to join the labour party but i'm quite sure that many delegates here can give some examples at a local level. also some political levy paying members may not join as individuals, although they remain ardent supporters of labour and come out and work and vote for labour at both national and local elections. it's already been said this morning they are entitled to a voice and therefore we need to retain er, a separate trade union membership. on motion four o three the c e c supports, obviously supports awards for long serving labour party members. these already exist as, as obviously the speakers to the motion is, are aware, they already exist at a national level, erm if we support this motion obviously what we're talking about here is introducing er awards at local or regional level. to summarize er delegates the c e c therefore is asking referral on motion three nine four, support with qua with the qualifications already mentioned for motions three nine nine, four o two and four o three. thank you very much. thanks very much robert. colleagues, motion three nine four, reference is being sought with the g m b scotland agree, thanks very much. conference agree, thanks very much. motion three nine nine is being accepted, all those in favour? against? that's carried. motion four o two, we're asking for your support, all those in favour? against? that's carried. mo motion four o three being recommended to accept, all those in favour? against? that's carried. colleagues, it's about by my watch, which is probably wrong anyway, but however it's the one we're working to, about twenty six minutes past twelve. now, what i'd like to do, i mean it's only sun shining out there so you'd only be wasting your time anyway, i'd like to consult you about moving on and getting in the next four motions on union organization. i think with your assistance we could probably get through it in about fifteen, twenty minutes. it would help us, er in terms of the end of the week. would you agree to that? thanks very much indeed colleagues. so, there's motions one seven five, one seven six, one seven seven and one seven eight in this particular section. frank will be asked to respond on behalf of the c e c because there are various different stances the c e c are taking on these particular motions. so, i now call motion one seven five, southern region to move, again colleagues, it would be helpful if movers and seconders would come down to the, the front. pauline , securicor apex five, southern region. members, the retention of membership is a very thorny problem. when you're recruiting it's a bit like courting. when you first have eye to eye contact everything is new, splendid, you want to do the very best for each other, you want to look your best, you want to tell them all the good things and eventually you get married. and once you're married a little bit of complacency settles in and your membership is not quite so well served, but what you've got to remember is that whilst you're busy losing interest, somebody else is always interested in your partner or your member, so when, i'll rephrase that i'll rephrase that. your party, your other, never mind, and when that happens you get poaching and i've always said, if you treat your membership properly they'll stay with you, but you've also got to remember that the union is in dire financial straits, or so it tells us. but if you pare your officers to the bone, if you cut them any longer, you will not get a decent service from them, you will just have people in boxes with lids firmly placed on them and then where will the union be? if you don't give a man or a woman time to do a single job properly, then it's not worth doing. it's no use doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that and getting absolutely nowhere, because you'll get the two finger job. go away, we'll go somewhere else where we can be looked after properly. so all the while you're retaining members, it's great, don't get complacent. john, don't screw your officers down into a box, because you're stretching them further and further. i know you've got financial problems, who hasn't, just remember, you've got to speculate to accumulate. i move. ann , southern region, seconding motion one seven five. president, congress. the retention of members should be high on our priority list. it is obviously important to get people to join the g m b and it's just as important to keep them as members once they have joined. in the southern region we have introduced a retention system which is producing positive results as you will see in our regional report. with the way jobs are going it's harder to keep members as they move from job to job. our members need to know that the services and benefits that the union provide are available to them regardless of where they work. the members are the lifeblood of this union and we cannot afford to lose any more. by making our benefits and services as attractive as possible it will encourage our members to stay with the g m b regardless of where they work. also we could recruit new members in other workplaces who will be aware of what the g m b provides. colleagues, we must not forget the low paid and the part-time workers, the majority of whom are women. to these people, we not only have to offer an attractive package but to be more visible, especially during these troubled times. president, congress, once again working people face another political attack. it is more important than ever to develop methods and policies to retain members. congress, i urge you to support this motion. ken , midlands and east coast region, moving motion one seven six, branch administration officers. conference, we are all well aware of the terrific financial burden that this union has been under over the last few years. with that burden around us we have seen a reduction in the number of full-time officers being appointed by the union and which in turn has without any doubt had a detrimental effect upon the members who we serve. it is for that very reason that i am moving this motion today as it gives us the opportunity to implement the rules of the union and at the same time would enable us to put into position, people who would be able to do all those things that are necessary to achieve what we require, recruitment, organization, paperwork, back-up service to full-time officials. that back-up service would also allow our full-time officers to concentrate on the recruitment and servicing of our members, which must and must only be and remain our highest priority. as time goes on, our membership and our finances will decide when we can take on full-time officials. this motion also creates an opportunity for the union, our union, the members' union, to encourage young members,members and branch activists to take on the role of branch administration officers within the regions we represent here today and gain experience in an area of trade union work that they thought might never have, have existed. conference, i believe that this existing rule nineteen, gives the g m b an opportunity to expand into branch administration officers across all the regions and use them to do any job that is needed and expected by the members. conference, i believe that we can succeed if you are prepared to support this motion and i will leave you with this point. the only way forward for this great union is for all of us to recruit new members, so all of us must take this responsibility seriously. branch administration officers are as i, i've already said, we'll be able to recruit and support full-time officials. conference, i want to help that, and solve that position. i hope we all want to help together as a team and support our already stretched full-time officials. rule nineteen gives us that opportunity. so congress, please don't let's waste the opportunity before us today. i therefore ask for your support. thank you, i move. linda , midland and east coast region, seconding motion one seven six, branch administration officers. president, congress. the mover has covered the motion extensively, but i'd like to add a couple of more points. we are not plucking this position out of the air, it's already there. in these difficult times it makes sense to look again at this post. it's self financing. we could promote computer training for the d a os enabling a move to computer as branch records, making branch administration efficient and streamlined. very importantly, just maybe, these prospective, highly motivated, branch admin officers would inject new life into non-active branches and from a personal point of view, i would see this as an opportunity to gain experience, which would encourage them to apply for regional organizer's jobs when they come available and don't we need more women officers? please support. motion one seven seven, london. president. president, congress. keith , london region, moving motion one seven seven. congress, i understand the c e c are accepting this resolution for the qualifications so i will be brief. past practice will to use such private , although they should have now, by now, all but disappeared. if we are to retain a level of even-handedness when dealing with employers ourselves we should at least make sure our own house is in order. if jobs or vacancies exist, our people, g m b people, should fill those vacancies. we have enough unemployed activists, who with a little training could cover those vacancies. congress, i move. would the seconder for one seven seven, formally seconded, thank you very much. one seven eight, liverpool region to move. formally moved, is it formally seconded? is it formally carried? oh, we can't, we referred in it. oh sorry about that frank. i do everything possible to help regional secretaries. thank you president. frank replying on behalf of the c e c to one seven five, one seven six, one seven seven and one seven eight. congress, the c e c is asking you to support one seven five. we seek withdrawal of motion one seven six in favour of one seven eight, we ask you to accept motion one seven seven where the certain qualifications and we seek referral of motion one seven eight. colleagues, motion one seven five is in line with the union's general approach therefore the c e c has accepted this motion. the c e c seeks withdrawal of one seven six. in nineteen eighty four the c e c and this congress favoured moving away from full-time officers to labour and secretaries and indeed we have implemented that policy. even you, at later conferences, have protected those people when we have adjusted branch commission and we feel it would be a retrograde step to try and go back and turn those years away. bearing those points in mind one seven eight offers a better way forward to use the skills and experience of our lay officials and members. motion one seven seven, of course we accept in principle, that where we have vacancies, permanent vacancies, we should employ direct staff and if possible our members, which we do try to do. however, we do have some occasional vacancies, maternity leave, building maintenance work, long term sick, where we have to make sure our labour force is protected, where we do involve temporary labour and even on those occasions we attempt to employ people direct as some regions know. so, on that basis, we then accept that motion with those reservations. the contents of motion one seven eight appear to be sound, conference, we have been tried and we have been tried by some regions in a very limited way with some success. however, the c, c e c feels it needs to consult with regions, it needs more closely to examine the point in question and we would ask for reference of that resolution. i move. thanks frank. thank you, president. er, congress. i hear what the c e c are saying and yes, i'm concerned about the union's finances. but the rulebook provision identifies branch administration officers, which i called for in the motion. why do we continue to identify positions in our union rules if we're not gonna use them, and another point, is the, if rule nineteen was part of an employer's agreement, we would be first to challenge that agreement and ask why it was not implemented. i've been trained on union education courses, the same as you people have out there today, this union spends a tremin tremendous amount of money on training shop stewards to challenge such agreements. so congress, i wish to challenge it. thank you. okay ken, thank you. colleagues, motion one seven five is being accepted, i put it to the vote, all those in favour? against? that's carried. and you've heard from ken in respect of one seven six, he's not prepared to withdraw, so therefore the c e c are recommending opposition. all those in favour of the motion? against? that's lost. motion one seven seven is being accepted, all those in favour? against? that's carried. motion one seven eight, reference is being sought and i understand that liverpool have agreed. conference agree, thanks very much indeed. colleagues, just before we adjourn for lunch, could i ask you to try and take the opportunity to visit the labour party and trade unions for labour stand where there is a live link to the national membership system. thanks very much indeed. congress stands adjourned until two p m, thank you. just a couple of things by way of introduction. erm, the first point, relates to a a microphone here, and er and er tape recorder, and i think members of the sub-committee will have received a note from the chief executive department. longman's are doing a study into the spoken language, and are looking for, i think, ninety million words that are in common usage. they came to the county council and asked for our permission, to to record a number of meetings in order to get a variety of settings and words, different words they used. it's it's the same procedure that we accepted at the finance committee last friday, and in mentioning it and hoping it will be acceptance that longman's can have the benefit of the personnel's sub-committee contribution for the next hour and a half or so. there's, to be clear about it, that it's completely confidential, that their looking only for particular words that are used in different parts of the country and in different locations. no problems, i presume sound. right. the second second thing is that people, everybody should have three extra pieces of paper, erm, relating to agenda item seven. the paper, january reports on employee resources. one's headed, linkway construction, the other is page thirty-two which needs replacing. thirty-two that's plain paper out, needs to come out and thirty-two needs to go in. there's also the salary scale a green card. having said that, can we move, go into yes. any apologies or substitutions. certainly, chair. there are no apologies, but there are two substitutions for this meeting. councillor to replace councillor and councillor to replace councillor . both for this meeting only. thank you. if we can move to the agenda. agenda item one. as we received the minutes of the personnel meeting held on the eighteenth of october, nineteen ninety-three. these minutes have been circulated with the agenda for the meeting of the policy committee on the second of november. chair, just before we go into, there's one quick thing i would like to add. i omitted the attendance of councillor from those minutes, subject to that, i would hope you would approve them. is it agreed that these minutes be approved? agreed. agreed. thank you okay, if we then move to agenda item two. minutes of the appeal sub-committee, held on the fifteenth of october, nineteen ninety-three. paper a. perhaps merely to receive this paper from the appeal sub-committee, fifteenth of october. agreed to receive it? agreed. agreed. thank you next item,right agenda item three, notes of the joint consultative committee held on the twenty-first of october, nineteen ninety-three, paper b. if i could just say a few words. this meeting was, i think the second meeting of management and staff side on the county council. it's part of an ingoing programme of meetings where there's consultation between employee representatives and employer representatives. specifically, most of the items that we discussed are picked up as agenda items throughout this particular agenda. for example, on page two, number nine one, trade union recognition, is item nine of our agenda. we could mention occupational health service review. this this is going ahead and we had discussions with the staff side about about that issue. local government review on page three, is is again an agenda item in relation to the staff commission at item ten in our agenda. couple of points that were made in relation to this particular report was the backing by the employee side, erm, to the wages board initiative that took when we wrote to the government saying that we felt that the abolition of the wages board was not in the best interests erm, of the people of lincolnshire. and that was supported. there will be a further report at the next personnel meeting on the outcome of the meeting that we held with j c c meeting on the twelfth of january and a further meeting is being fixed up for february. i don't know if anybody wants to make any comments about any of the items on paper b okay, is it agreed to receive this report? agreed. agreed. if we would then move to agenda item four. association of county councils personnel sub-committee digest paper c. graham. it's simply a a report circulating for information slanders really because of it's, obviously it's a dated er paper, that appears from a c c because of the difference in committee cycles. if there are any items, that er, members would wish to pick up, then i'm sure, we would be happy to do so, or the chair. well, thank you. anybody want to make a comment on the a c c digest. councillor chair. two, the nineteen ninety-four pay round. erm, basically we've got a very poor deal from the government this year in terms of of of an increase in our spending allowance. erm, i note that for ninety-five, ninety-six, that they intend to give us two per cent rise. er, with nothing in there to pay. and i note that in ninety-six, ninety-seven we're gonna get one and a three quarter per cent rise. and again with nothing to pay, with the county's expected to find the money for pay rises for their staff from savings from efficiencies. now, i mean, we've always been told that this is, been an efficient run county council, and that the the scope for making savings is just not there. we've got inflation that i, it looks to be pressing perhaps to three, three and a half per cent, between four and three and a half per cent . erm, we've got pay review bodies which may, we don't know what they'll come out with in in terms of recommendations for for the pay increases, and i think that this is placing the councillor in a in a very bad po er position. erm i don't think it's fair upon the employees and i don't think it's fair on the counties. erm, i just wondered if you, from your manage from your meetings with the a c c that you would want to pass on any more comments on that. thank you. come back to that. does anybody else want to make a contribution on this paper? what er councillor says, but i can't find it. it's agenda i , it's two. no. is that right? no. i think, i think the chancellor in the erm, budget speech on the thirtieth of november actually said that local government increase in spending will be two and a quarter per cent in nineteen ninety-four, five. two per cent in ninety-five, six and one and three quarter per cent in ninety-six, seven. yes, i appreciate that, but i just wondered why we were discussing that here now, when we were turned down. i'm sorry, i just was a bit confused. right, i think it's to do with the fact that two on this digest is about the pay-round, and the pay-round is linked to what money given to actually, give to the local authorities. any other contributions? if i could just pick up the point you made councillor , i think that at the a c c discussions, there was a great deal of cognition and understanding of the need to consult with staff side, in the run up to the beginning of formal consultations. and i think that a comprehensive consultation exercise has got to bear in mind that the key question, and that's affordability. that we recognise that local authorities are in a a difficult position. we also recognise so to are the workers of county councils, and district councils, particularly because the er the government initiatives, one good point to v a t on fuel, and the increasing in in national insurance contributions and increases in taxation, so between the two sides has got to be some accommodation, bearing in mind the need for both of us to want to continue to deliver quality services. it's going to be a tough nineteen ninety-four. anything else of agenda item, what is it c. paper c. okay. do we agree that that the digest be noted. agreed. agreed. thank you. right paper d, agenda item five, options and horizons agency's annual report. thank you, chair. michael. er, we report annually to you on our stewardship of the options and the horizon agencies. erm, the options agency is a county-wide youth training agency, with contracts with the lincolnshire and the greater peterborough, er training and enterprise councils. er, we're also, with that particular agency looking to establish a contract with the er, south humberside . the majority of the training is within the options agency, erm, achieve a positive outcome, and i do apologise with all the jargon that will creep in , erm, positive outcomes in terms of these programmes are that they achieve jobs. national vocational qualifications. n v q's or they go on to higher er studies in further education. and virtually everybody who joins the options agency has a positive outcome to more than one in some cases, er in so far as that agency is concerned. so overall the options agency has had another successful year. internally the options agency delivers training for young people who qualify to our employees at the county council, and so we do receive assistance through the youth training programme and with our costs as an employer in training young people to achieve the these positive outcomes and n v q's and so on. so the options agency has had a good year, and hopefully will again next year. the horizons agency serves lincoln and district and that's called the lincoln travel to work area, which vir virtually stretches as far as horncastle to the east and gainsborough to the er, west and market rasen to the north and sleaford to the south, so it's a very large proportion er er of the county, but it's called the lincoln travel to work er area. and it serves it from premises in road and lane in lincoln. it has a contract with the lincolnshire tech. for youth training, and a contract for adult training. and it is specialised over the years in craft training, particularly in relation to the building and engineering trades, and has made unique provision in the district for the less able. the less able, in the jargon of these programmes are called an s t n. special training needs. er, the method of funding is changed for these programmes and this is leading to particular problems for the horizons agency. er, we started off originally with all our expenses being met on these programmes. it then moved to being paid so much per week, for an trainee, and we now have a mixture of such much a week, and so much for the output related fundings, the jobs, the n v q's, the f e courses which i mentioned earlier. and there is a move to move adult training particularly, to total output related funding. the tech is funded in this sort of way by the er, er national arrangements and they in their turn has passing that on to various suppliers. this will pose particular problems for the horizons agency, because we rely very much on the weekly allowance for the people with special training needs, because their output in in terms of o output related funding is relative to the so our income is cutting for the people with the, who need the highest training staff ratio, in in order to succeed. and this poses particular problems for us in the horizons agency. we are in discussion with the tech, and those discussions are not included. erm, we're meeting er on a fairly regular basis with them, to see if we can seek some solution. and you'll see in the report that we do point out, that some of the training that we do, things like woodwork training, and brickwork training, are relatively expensive to deliver, compared with other training of occupations. erm, and we've had, i'm afraid to give protective notice to six members of staff, it's about er, discussions with the erm, tech, are not successful, then they will have to leave us at the end of this programme year, which is the thirty-first of march. that difficulty on one sense overshadows the successes that the agency has had, and this is particularly successful in the area of catering training training and business training. we do run er an organisation called lincoln energy save out of the horizons agency, which er, completes insulations programmes, er, in er, properties. it's in part a government, and partly e c funding programme, and er the rules on that have been changed which will make many more people eligible for assistance with er, er insulation on their houses. trained people are on the way, and many of the people that we train go onto work college, other commercial agencies. so there are successes in horizons agency, you just have to at the moment by the difficulties in finding the necessary funding to cater for people who are not great achievers in terms of output funding. right. i'll be happy to answer any questions, chair. thank you. right, councillor and then councillor well, er i think, you know, it's a, i mean, in er one way it's a, it's a good it's a good report, i mean, and er it emphasizes, you know, the success of what the, we've got. i mean, we've got this, it's been on, mrs , i know, she has the same as i do, but but er the the these people who need such help, i mean, i'm not being it it it just it just they've just not included in the programme really, and er, we've written i think from this committee over the years er made submissions over the years, and message still doesn't seem to have got through, that that that that er this, and i think very valuable work, that can contribute to the quality of life for all of us, if we can improve the lot for these people. it does reflect right through society er still doesn't, the message still doesn't get home, and i would like to move mr chairman, that er we do again er write and see if we can get some special recognition of this very serious problem that there is. there's some valuable work gone on there, and you can, and if and if we're going to deny these people, the opportunity of of achieving anything like their potential, i mean, it seems such a shame, when we, you know, when we are succeeding in the rest of the programme. and i would like to ask you, er er and the rest of the committee of who, whatever we can do, and that the officers should advise us what we can do, to to to make a further submission. i don't, i think we must do, because it underlines it's it's as sp , it's been a slow spiral down for these people, and we're getting now, very near to the bottom where we're not going to be able to help any of them at all. so i would urge the committee to to to make a submission on their behalf, chair. thank you. councillor erm, yes, well i go along with er, councillor on that. but but first of all i would like to say the officers of the agencies really should be congratulated on. doing a good job. i'm sure councillor and erm, and certainly there does seem to be more emphasis on helping people with difficult educational disabilities, and those with learning difficulties, but if we could encourage even more,excellent, and i think it's very important that er, bank agencies er emphasise the fact that it's training, plus their main aim being er also a qualification, which does help them get, erm jobs. and the end product record, does seem to be very good, particularly erm, er you know, with options, seventy- five per cent you know, very good indeed. but could we please be told just a little bit more about compus course, er run by horizon, that's mentioned in the last paragraph, erm on the, on green one, it's on the first page. defined as severely disadvantaged young people. does that include young people with severe physical and sensory disabilities? yes, the compus course was really a a further work orientation course, for people who had just left school. mm. and generally speaking, they had left the special schools of, is it st christophers in er lincoln, and er other special schools, and they were not, they hadn't had sufficient er work experience or knowledge of the possible market to find jobs at the moment. and so what we did, we ran this particular course, erm, for which we we received a fee, but it came back as expenses area, wasn't under the same arrangement as the rest of it. and and we pla , got people placed in various work places which was sympathetic to their particular disabilities. when you get down to these groups of people, you have to work with each individual, if you, you'll know, and find somewhere where you can capitalise on their strengths and hopefully get away with whatever disabilities they had. so some people were very low academic people, some had physical problems, and er, some had er, combination of problems, erm which er very often you would find er combination of problems. but it was irrelative to accept that sort of course. we had run one in an earlier year, erm, i think that was slightly a different type, but that, er, the idea was the same. have you thought of sorry,chair. mm. er will be spreading to the er, other parts of county, as well. erm, i suspect er that the tech. if it sees a needs for this. yes. er, type, would contract with somebody else apart from elsewhere in the county, erm, rather than with us. er, we're not erm, geared for instance, to deliver a course like that in stanford, but some other agency may be. yes. and we haven't thought to do it from anywhere else, other than press forward. we don't, i mean, whatever experience we have, we are not available to any other thank you. okay thanks. councillor thank you, chairman. er, the question on b five please. erm, could you tell us a little more about the venture, and the this one. yes, i'm i'm no expert, i i, though if you probably are, erm, but as i understand it, it's erm, it's growing or starting plants off, erm, to grow in a soilless culture yes. erm, it's it's an odd plant, i've wandered round it, sort of steam heat situation, as far as i can tell. and that fairly quickly, but erm, it's it really producing plants in a a forced situation, which i don't translate into others, and grow strongly elsewhere, and er, i'm afraid i'm i'm no expert in this plan. propagation. this is this is this is a way that er erm, garden centres and whatever er do produce a lot of their material. and there is quite a lot of growth in employment in gardening centres at the moment. particularly if you can send somebody who has knowledge of the process, as well as the n v q, with the point there, that that was being made, erm, and we felt that this was a growth area. we have had quite a few trainees, youth trainees in garden centres, and golf courses, which surprised me, but golf courses apparently could use quite a lot of people. and er, this extra interest we thought would er, you know, force their chances of employment. so we're keeping our fingers crossed on that idea. i think at the moment the it's the scottish theory, not proven but it looks promising. thank you, i'm reassured that it is a viable, promotional future. well, i think so. i mean,can you. we feel it's got a, in a sense of what we produce within the training situation, we know we can sell. good. and, we also feel it got a future to the people who are working within it,, in that it will lead them on hopefully, to useful employment opportunities. the people who take this job on, are not necessarily the highest achievers, they tend to be looking for a job with a particular interest in that and are sort of reliable and conscientious people. perhaps they have been finding our simulated version of you know, to be there early, and to be there late, and sometimes be there saturday and sunday as well. mm. so that, i mean, they they are getting a a reasonable working environment or reasonable view of the working environment, so that it doesn't come everyone's got a skill it's just having, erm, finding it. well, nurturing it, really thank you. thanks. right, anyone else? okay. just to come back to councillor point. the the difficulty in a sense that we got, if we look at two paragraphs towards the end the report. paragraph five two, actually su actually suggests that output related funding, a hundred per cent output related funding based on achieving jobs and n v q's, has been tried by lincolnshire tech. with a view to introducing it to all contracted providers in nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five. we we then actually go over to paragraph five five, which refers to the fact that output related funding, has an effect on horizons, because essentially we're dealing with people that have got special training needs. mm. so we we, in a sense we've got a a clash of of principles or a conflict, between for example, the government wanting the the lincolnshire tech to have an hundred per cent output related funding, based on jobs and n v q's which is not er er perhaps, er an easy way of delivering output related funding services to people who've got special training needs. which seem to me re re re re reasonable to be suggesting that we could lobby government, in order to say that, people with special training needs can't be included within the whole of the hundred per cent linked output related funding,be because the issue is that then, er they do have special training, and that's that that's the justification for them, that particular group. putting them to one side from the ordinary trainee where you could expect jobs and n v q's to be the outcome, and for them to be treated as a special case. i mean, i don't know what people would think of that. well, i'd like to do, that we do do that, i mean, we have i think made some submissions in the past, but i think it's now quite clear that the fears that we've expressed in this committee over the years, are well founded, and we've got to the point, where the whole er project for the special needs people, is is going is going to be very vulnerable. but i mean, it could be er could be ver we're talking about redundancies now, aren't we, so it, er, i think you know, i'd like to move that we do do that, if the if there's a seconder, and and and lobby very strongly. okay. i i wonder, chair, if i might comment. we have in the past raised this through the er association of county councils in the education side, with and we, there was quite a lot of support, and also have had support in the past from er, kenneth carlyle and douglas howe erm who were, supported the view, er which was particularly in relation to youth training, as this is more adult training we're talking about here. but i i think there is a body of opinion out there that we could tap, which would be supported. jim's proposition. is is it seconded? yup. right, anybody else want to speak about that approach. er, i take it, chairman, that that this would be through our ideas about the oh, we could do it in a variety of ways. we could actually go to the association of county councils. described, all the avenues that we can pursue, yes. would that would improve things, certainly would improve things, mr chairman. i mean presumably department of trade and industry is it, contains erm, minister of state under our local, all the six lincolnshire m p's. mm chairman, i have spoken to kenneth carlyle and his and he's very sympathetic. right. so the the be sympathetic response from us. yes. fine. is that agreed then? agreed. agreed. thank you. thank you, michael. if we could move to paper e. item six, joint staffing watch. again, back to yourself, michael. erm, chair, this is the joint staffing watch for september ninety-three, and its mandatory on the county council, that it's presented to the committee, er, within a period of preparation as it is issued to the media. it's the snap-shot of people paid in a period, and it has in it comparisons with the previous quarter, june ninety-three and the previous year, september ninety-two. there are in this second page national comparisons between june ninety-two and june, ninety-three between local authorities. it is of limited usefulness, and it's perhaps a requirement on local government that they could very well drop. erm, because it seems to, with the changing nature of organisation of authorities, it's used as a comparative purpose, must be er, very doubtful, and we've always criticised it, er beginning the position snapshot on a particular the day, it doesn't say what's in the pipeline or what's going out of the pipeline at the other end. and we do know that from septem the september report is a particular unreliable one. erm, but there it is, it it has value just in itself as a snapshot. the next papers that we have, chairman, are much more useful in management terms, and er, if anybody has any questions on this particular report, i'll i'll be happy to try and answer it. thank you. if we just pause for a moment and look at the a c c digest that the papers see. there is an item about this joint staffing watch at item ten, which suggests that the government are also finding that it's got limited use, and are suggesting that these returns should be completed on a different basis, and rather than quarterly, annually. so, this joint staffing watch as it exists at the moment, has got a very restricted shelf life, an and i doubt if it's going to survive. but, anybody want to ask any questions, or raise any points about about it. next year, it's very limited use, and we find the same situation in south which is, move that we agreed to that in the report. anybody else. is that agreed, jim? fine. at the farmers expense. agreed to the report be noted, then. agreed. agreed. thank you. at much a much more substantial document. paper f, employee resource report. erm, chris. thank you, chair. can i just remind er members on the er, additional papers that were placed in fron in front of them this morning. page thirty-two about translink you'll substitute for page thirty-two in the report, and the report on linkway construction fit happily between pages twenty-six and twenty-seven, and apologies for the lateness of that particular report. paper f, i believe, gives you, as the employing committee of the county council, a mine of information about the employee profile of lincolnshire county council. it's numbers, permanent, temporary, casual employees at a at er er first of october, via employment group, full-time, part-time, agenda, grades and ward salary and so forth. in addition, of course , there is a brief commentary by the departmental head or the general manager of the public service unit, saying something about the movement in staffing over the previous year, and a brief word or two about what is going to happen in the current and future years. this report, of course, is capable of further refinement and we will welcome any suggestions for further refinement and we want to improve it. we do want to provide information that is useful to you in in in the overall management of the employees resource and accounting. erm, always has a cavia i think the parliament use, that it er, the cost preparing such detailed information must not be disproportionate er to the use it's going to have, and with that cavia we would welcome further er erm, suggestions as to refinement, and er, i'm not going to go through this in detail. it is all there for you, and we will endeavour to answer any questions that you may have. if we can't answer them this very day, or in fact, if they do not occur to you this very day, but on subse quent occasions, of course, we will endeavour to answer the points a little later on. thank you. certainly we employ thirteen thousand, seven hundred and ninety-one staff as at the first of october. a substantial work-force, and this is th a valuable document, a wealth of information. welcome any comments. just to congratulate the officers for putting this together. er, i think as the other previous document was usefu useless, this is useful, and i mean, i think it's er something we can't take in a day and night, to spend, to spent some more time over this, because,yo you know, it does reflect very well on, on er, particularly that er, information that we needed earlier, in terms and and er. i think, you know, it it it's er something we made not all that thank you. councillor erm, just a quick erm, question, please, chairman. will this be available to the trade unions? this document. i'm sure it will be. i'm sure, if it's not already well, i'm sure they. i'm sure they will want,what the previous one was, actually. useless now thank you. councillor yes, chairman, two questions. first on page nine, computer services er, i know we see an increase in the staff information technology. has there been a corresponding decrease or, has there been an increase at all in other departments er, due, one presumes through having more information there will be a staffing reduction elsewhere. has this occurred? i think, sir it will be very very difficult to identify, erm, quite where the reductions are. as you know the authorities or control very very closely, as to the additional members of staff that come on. erm, and each chief officer and each general manager has to er, look very very closely as to whether we can afford additional staff and er recruit them. but, to identify one on and one off, as it were, throughout the organisation, i it would be er, virtually impossible. in addition, of course , there are great demand for increased information. indeed, what you have before you, is a demand for increased information, and this is generated by er, a computer system, for example. the growth of er, information technology in mounting information is required at member level and chief officer level has indeed been enormous over these years, and does not necessarily reflect in reductions elsewhere. thank you. just another question i want to know. sure. okay. no no problem. er, page thirty-six, paragraph two the new environment officer the first, the question first, and as i understand it, please correct me, erm, the agreement policy was, there was to be one environment officer, personal assistant. here is, that there's mentioned of further assistance. also, there is also, further assistance, further assistance to or support to members in addition to the extra secretary that is being established. first questio , the question, and i'd like to comment as well is, erm, what, are there plans for the future of greatly expanding environment department, er, and why is it er, and why is it not being put through policy, first. wh wh what i remember going through policy is the fact that we wanted to employ us environment officer with some clerical support, and i think that that's actually what went to policy. and that is what is agreed, sir. the er, environment officer post has been established and has been filled. the clerical support office, officer has not yet been filled, and that is one of the two mentioned. because of one of the two mentioned here in this note has nothing at all to do with the environment. yes, well it is er, yes, well i comment on that, when i get more yeah. so yes. that that's, i think that's so the posts that are to be established and to be filled are exactly as those approved by the policy committee. no more. so. so as far as i know there are no plans. so are you omitting to say what exactly has been in numbers. one environment officer. one clerical support. yes, well, i see fr from this, it's it's not exactly clear, not exactly is what is intended. it implies there are more to come. not, not to my knowledge. thank you. well, i'd just like to comment on the, as here we're talking about the environment officer. er, i should know that, or certainly agree that all the staff in the environment must have coped ade adequately well before under the preceding system where each officer, each department was was instructed to deal with the environment as it came along. er, i'm in the view, that this er, environment department is at the moment, is doing nothing at all, anything that's happened so far. it don't seem to be any good at all, whatsoever. so i believe it is a rather a waste of money, it's just talking shop, shuffling papers about, and we regret that in in the time when er resources are difficult, staffing could be put elsewhere instead of this right, i note your comments. but don't agree with them, but were certainly noted. councillor thank you. with these posts as well, because it has actually stated we have employed an environmental officer. yes, we know that. and then there are two further posts, two five's over the next twelve months. one to provide assistant to the environment officer and the other to provide further assistants into to members. right. instead of one extra, there's two extra. yeah, i th i mean, i i can i can see precisely where you're coming from. but i think that the two further posts, one is provide assistance to the environment officer, which is a clerical support that councillor referred to. full stop. the other post, nothing to do with the environment, to provide further assistance and support to members. but why should members need even more support. i mean. hang on, that's not the same question as the environment. i think we've got that one sorted out, haven't we? it's i'm sorry, this is all under environment yes. no, it's not no, it's not. it's under the exe execs department employee resources. yes. i appreciate that, but it comes in the same paragraph, so it, you must admit that it's a little er, confusing. well, it's not meant to be. i i mean, there was no intention to to do that. i think we can agree, that there's one environment officer, one clerical support for the environment officer, and one erm, of clerical support for assistance and support to members. now, i think once we've established that, we can have argument about whether members need more assistance, but at least we're arguing on the same basis, aren't we? i agree now, yes, it was just all in the same paragraph, and it just sort of a bit odd. point taken. councillor thank you, chairman. one of my constituents that i read in the newspaper about the erm, the green way in which the party should be moving, and said that erm, he would like me to express my disquiet to and i thought this, perhaps this would be quite a useful place to his disquiet, but council tax money is being spend on this sort of erm, work when there are far more urgent erm, services needed in the county, and he would much rather have the highways, er, money from, which is now going into the environment to go into highways, erm, so as er, chairman council, i'm passing his comments on to you, through this committee. he feels it's a complete waste of money, and he would like it to go , please. so, i pass this message on. right. some people take a view that the quality of of of land, air and water in lincolnshire is important yes, er maybe i wouldn't have mentioned it, but er, well, that's a story of one like dozens of people, congratulating us, that at long last we're going to do something about the environment and protect it for the future of our children, and they consider it money well spent, and asking the question, why wasn't it never done before. i think they know the answer. but it was it was so restrictive, the er, the way that it was handled, you know, just with the er, senior members of the conservative meeting and the er friends of the earth and such as that. it never came to the fore. so that now at least the people are becoming more aware, and people are more aware of the environment so, so i see no problems on that score whatsoever from members, and er not convince people, but er we er advising them more of what's going on, and becoming more aware of the problems that there are within the environment. before i move on to other contributions, can i remind everybody that we are dealing with the employee resources report. and this is not a sub-committee of the sub-committee of environment. right. you've been very indulgent, chair. councillor thank you chairman, i i can note that remark, but i do think that we do have to defend the position a little on environmental issues. i mean, the the tories are ready, shouldn't they complete to environmental issues, whereas every every public consultation or survey that ever carried out, demonstrates every time, that the public are very concerned that they're, of the environment and they will put it at the top of the list, and i think our con the environment by having a dedicated environment officer proves our positive er commitment to the environment. it's it's it seems to me to be applauded. obviously, it's something that's gonna develop, and er, as times does on, more and more issues are gonna be referred to this committee. thank you. councillor thank you, chairman, just a brief comment. i can't remembered who said it a little earlier but they said that the er, conservatives er dealt with the environment as it came along, and it's it's been all too apparent that they kep dealt with it as it came along. it was hit and miss, and it was more miss than hit. and,qui and most certainly demonstrated the need to set up the very same committee as we have set up. thank you. thank you, chairman. a bonus for anybody who wants to move away from page thirty-six, when they make a contribution. i've got councillors erm, and who have spoken already. i think i'll er, i think you ought to move on, chair. right. any anybody else? i'm not, i'd be happy if you were to come back, but not on the environment. it's just that i've really chairman, page thirty- three, little one could somebody er the growth, a review of the authority contracts hire for officers. why is there, i've assumed from that, there is a need for more contract hire for the officers. why is this? if i'm, please, if i'd known i'm sorry, sir yes, it is in the authorities interests that as many of it's travelling employees as possible use the car contract hire scheme, because it saves the authority money, and yes, officers around this large county have the cheapest possible rates. to see that there is a take up of the car contract hire scheme, it constantly has to be held, or kept unde , the scheme has to be kept under review, to make sure that it is attractive and it is what er, the employees want to see, and would prefer rather than an alternate means of transport. so we're, do encourage it, we hope that it will grow and resume counties interest if it does grow. if it does grow, then there is a certain amount of administration that has to go along with it. all of which is costed in. point. sure, but on that, then we get the benefits of scale, and i think it's it's a well proven scheme, and i think the the evidence is there, that it is thank you for that support, jim. right. if nobody else wants to make a contribution, do we agree that the report be accepted. agreed. agreed. thank you. if i could just add my thanks to the officers substantial piece of work, which is, i hope going to be used by many members to come for the next year. right. can we move on to item eight. annual report on equal opportunities. paper g. jack. yes, thank you, chair, erm. about eighteen months ago, this committee reviewed and revised erm, it's equal opportunity policy. and, accept a few requirements on officers which are identified in paragraph er, two of the report. so the report before you is the first real annual report on equal opportunities inter county council, so you've got all the relevant statistics and in that sense it compliments the previous report that you've just examined. and identifies target which have been pursued, or have been agreed, and are being pursued throughout the county council. appendix one of the report, sets out the position in relation to registered disabled employees of the county council, july ninety-three, and you will see there in summary, that we've had a slight increase in the percentage of our employees, albeit that's got to be seen against erm, er er a lower total of employees altogether. it does indicate, nevertheless a step in the right direction. but one needs to add to it at least two relevant considerations. one is that that registered disabled employees and we will be bringing forward further proposals on initiatives to you at the next meeting, and i hope that if you agree, that will be amongst other things with the issue of non-registered disabled employees, and the other consideration in looking at movements in targets and so on, is inevitably the whole job market situation and the opportunities for achieving that. appendix two, er challenges a er genda profile. erm, and i i would like to come on to that immediately if i may, but again it does indicate erm, a movement, in the right direction of getting more er women employees into higher management levels. a small movement, but nevertheless, a movement in the right direction. erm, this report will be the subject of consultation with your employee representatives after you've received it. erm, but, having been supported by each chief officer and general manager, you will see in paragraph eleven of the report, the various actions that have been taken over the last twelve months or so, and i would like to pick out particular the fact, that chief officers are now, operating or required to have effective arrangements for achieving equal opportunity in employment in their department or unit. the county council as a whole, is now operating and using this new logo amber conditions, that go with it for the employment of the disabled. we are going to, we have star started a monitoring scheme for ethnic monitoring. a trial some people would say. and more particularly in appendix three, you've got for the first time, individual chief officers and general managers comments, for achieving a better equal opportunity profile in their department or unit. erm, i i really don't want to add anything else, other than the summary, erm, that i gave you on appendix one, chairman, but if you move over to appendix two for a start, erm, this first of all, relates only to our a t t in and we hope in future to improve this sort of information in the other employee groups. erm, members may well want to look at this, and spend a bit of time examining it. could i just make a correction, which would help in that respect. on the total okay, so twenty-nine to thirty-four throughout on all the relevant places. but i i i do suggest to you, that that about demonstrates what we've really known all along, it was subjectively, that county council actually has more women employees than men. but actually, we need a lot more women employees, in terms of opportunity and advantage to them, at the senior management levels. as i've mentioned earlier, we've we've got a slight movement in the right direction. i hope that the targets that are before you in appendix three, demonstrate the way in which individuals and general managers do have, inevitably their targets vary because of the circumstances of their particular er unit or department. erm, i'll try to answer any questions you may have on appendix three, bearing in mind all the detail there, involved. but i do suggest that if necessary, we can come back with answers later on. i do suggest that if you, with your relative responsibilities want to, you could take that up with the individual chief officer and general manager, and i just do need to draw your attention to the fact that the targets and the whole policy in education, does not apply in schools, because that is the responsibility of ind individual government bodies. so in that sense, your role is purely advisory. with that, chair, i would recommend that you agree the, er, support you brought before you, which is as i said, will the subject of full consultation with your employee representatives. thank you. councillor and then councillor yes, when i looked through appendix three, the equal opportunities targets, and the public service units. when i saw computer services, i was immediately a bit disappointed. er, to say nothing referring to the registered disabled and any positive er encouragement taken on. but i can reassure members that i've spoken to the department, and they are committed to attempt to encourage disabled applicants for jobs and taking them on. it's more of an omission on the paper, than an omission in a er, intent. erm, they do, they are, they they have had er, registered disabled employees previously, er, and they are committed in in one ex example of two work experience er children from the st francis special school, they take two every year, er for for works experience training, and i do intend to talk to the general manager and ensure that they are encouraging di disabled people to apply for jobs of that kind. thank you. that's most helpful. right, councillor well, thank you, chairman. er, first of all i would like to say, i'm all for equal opportunities. erm, but i do believe who is the best person for the job. and then to apply for a job, i think should be on the complete basis of what what they are, what they've achieved, what they've done, regardless of whether they're male or female. erm, there's a perfect example in appendix three, in and planning it's the second page of of appendix three, and to read through it, and i won't read it, because obviously everybody has done. every is going to be female, now does that mean to say, that if no males apply, or if you only advertise for someone female, which i presumably erm, actually going to er run the impossibly do it. only fe , only males apply they won't get could i just i mean, i it's it's so it really does it does. when we are trying to get into equal opportunities and, as i say, i agree with you entirely, but i still think that the best person for the job i i i take, i i take that equal opportunities does raise peoples erm, blood pressure to say the least. i think that the points that i want to make here, because people come from different positions, is one, this is a long term strategy. right, in ot other words, within four to eight years. oay, so there could be so there could be a number of chartered engineer vacancies come up, during those four to eight years, but during the next four years, hopefully, we will be able to recruit one female chartered engineer. now, the point about merit has to be recognised side by side with opportunities, because the points that i want to say, firstly the the many women and people with disabilities under achieve. th they then very able to do jobs, but the lack of, for example, training and they don't get into those jobs, and secondly, we need to make an equal opportunities culture, very clear, so that women can come forward, and don't feel as though the they're going into a workforce that it to totally male dominated, which is quite off-putting. so it's about culture, training, opportunities and to make sure that people from whatever walk of life, and whatever gender or race or ability to have, or disability, do not under achieve. i mean, that's m my contribution as as a committed person to equal opportunities, but i'd welcome an example well, if i may, chair, i would like deal with it in terms of the principle or the policy and then the application to highways planning. you are right, and indeed, all of our advice, all the particular professional that michael union gives to all of the the er, county council matters, is that recruitment is on merit. it is unlawful, accept in two areas, to er discriminate in the way that you suggested, but essentially our our appointment process is on merit. it there are two exceptions, that i mentioned, we must give prior consideration in any vacancy that we have for a registered disabled applicant. i would like to see that for a disabled applicant, but nevertheless, for a registered disabled applicant, and we can make special provision for the training of er, under represented groups. and i i hope that when we bring our initiatives to you next month, you will see how we are addressing that. so in general terms, i agree with you, and that's the way it works with the exceptions i mentioned. specifically in highways and planning, if you look at the previous report, the enclos following profile one, you will see that in the highways planning department excepting the offices, it is almost entirely male, and i think this is, it's for the director of highways and planning to say in the end, i think this is an acknowledgement by him that in the way that you mentioned nevertheless it seems to be apparent in some way, shape or form, women are not getting equal opportunity in that department. chair, may i just come back on on one point. mm. thank you. i can appreciate all that, and i i appreciate the way in which females are being encouraged to apply for posts. but i i hope at the end of all this, there will still be how much training you've had, that when the post is eventually advertised it will still be and that is the situation. i i'm pretty sure that that's so, chair, and you d when you say you're recruiting erm, young people from school, training or, erm, taking them on to engineering vacancies. you do have people from both sexes, of equal abilities and potential strengths, and it would be possible at that stage to have a training pool of people, which perhaps, er redress the balance, and perhaps er gradually have available many people, but you can only do that, if people come forward without skills that you need in order to train them into the jobs. er, and that's one of the problems, is persuading good people to put their names forward for these jobs, and that's how you present it. yep. right. yep. councillor yes, i think councillor has just highlighted, is that there is a need for a change in the culture. i worked in a construction industry and er, and it was a male orientated dominated er industry, and i think what councillor is probably just taking small parts in isolation,highways and planning which has at least one chartered engineer and additional female. you've then got to go below that and say, this was achieved through actual and it is the advertising making the public aware that we are prepared to employ females providing they're good enough. and this also has got to be encouraged through the schools, so that er, young er you know women, leaving school, going into career, will realise that they will be accepted into a previously male dominated industry. that's really what it's all about. you know, probably some of us are too old to accept this, but er, the younger people burt, erm, will er the the younger people will be encouraged to start to accept this and it is a change in our thinking, that it, i find it difficult as well. but i'm certain, by doing it this way, we will encourage females to put in for these these posts. even that our managers have got to be made by way of councillor has said, will they be accepted on merit. i would ask, will the men be accepted on merit, and i would suggest that in the past, only a suggestion, but i'm very aware of it, that men were taken on and they weren't even as good as the women, so applied in the past, can i just be clear, councillor that you meant no disrespect to the councillors at all. erm, 'cos 'cos if you did, i'm sure that that wouldn't be popular in this committee. under equal opportunities, they could both be the same age. yeah, you don't want any councillor erm, yes, thank you, chairman. it does seem to be on the whole a very encouraging report. i am pleased with the targets that each department's have achieved. er,with regard to erm, disabilities. for a number of increase in employed. but i would like to say that this is very much, and i think councillor knows that previous personnel committee, it's all in the mind, we want former administration and one of the latest tests was the adoption of the national disability symbol and encourage them to talk about it. erm, i do understand that er, you know, we've got another report coming to us tomorrow on it, and there may be some additions on it disabled people hopefully about getting more people to,disabled people to that that's another aim we help people to i think other people want to speak, actually oh, sorry,of course, i've forgot. i'd be delighted for your time. i mean, i i fully fully acknowledge that this equal opportunities policy was initiated at a sub-committee on the ninth of october, ninety-two, so, you know, there isn't an argument on this occasion about previous conservative policies coming forward. right. councillor erm, thank you, mr chairman. erm, as you know, erm, we did have erm, equal opportunities erm, conference, erm, in erm, what came out of it was the fact that, although you could provide training, it was trying to get the confidence er, into the women to have the the nerve to apply for jobs. erm, and a lot of them training, but unless you can actually erm, increase their confidence, and that is the attitude of the people all over the place. so it's going to take a very long time, because it has been male orientated, but until we get the attitude of the work place, which is encouraging their piers to apply for jobs instead of, oh, of course , i don't think i will apply for that job. and and the women, are very difficult about apply for the jobs, so i think it's going to take an awful long time, erm, i'm all in favour of equal opportunities, erm, on all accounts, and i would agree with councillor that one of the difficulties about registered dis disability is that, a lot of people who could actually be a registered disabled person, but for reasons of pride, don't want to be registered disabled. erm, a lady could be, try and get the stigma away from that registration. thank you. thank you. i mean, i do i do take your point about the culture, and it and it's it is a significant issue, which will take some time, i mean, probably wi with your experience in social services you'll know that a substantial number of directors of social services are in fact female, and maybe one of the questions that we have to ask at a senior level is, our s senior erm, chief officers, erm, the fact that we've got no woman, chief officer, and it may well be because now that we've got an equal opportunities policy, that we may get applications from erm, very able women who see that we have got a clear commitment to equal opportunities demonstrated in this paper. councillor yeah, thank you, chairman. i know the erm, remarks made about getting extra people to register and to have their green card, i'm probably one of a few councillors with a green card. but, i must say that, having got that, i do not regard myself as disabled, i have a disability, i do not regard myself as disabled, and it's this business that you have registered as disabled person, which is a bit of a stigma. i think perhaps, here though, it might be something, we have had a paper earlier about the j c c's meetings, and it might be something that unions might be able to help us with. because sometimes, if the employer goes along, people will think, oh yes, they're only doing it to get their quota up, and they regard it as something that just helps us, and we can get nearer our quota, and it might be something that we could encourage the unions to help us with, because they could point out the positive benefits to people to be registered, despite the rotten name that they're called. right, so that's a good point for the next j c c meeting. right, councillor right, i i i don't want to repeat what's been said, in fact, i wouldn't like to speculate around the age of any member of the right. what i would like to say is, that on the, er, er it is question of culture, it does take time, er, in my experience, i've been very interested in theological debate that's run with the ordination of women. in fact, we in methodism we've been ordaining women for the last twenty-five years, and it has become as natural as breathing to us. but it does take time, and i think, you know, this puts the, this gives the framework in which this can usually open the opportunities and the methodist women are not short of confidence, and i think that's why i married an anglican, you see. right. well, it it just gives a framework, with that relieve that problem. right. thank you, for that ecclesiastical contribution, councillor right, any anybody else wish to speak? councillor briefly, chairman, yes, i i fully note that the county council will encourage younger women, especially to come forward, er especially to higher grades as they are under represented er, i think there's hope in the future because college and universities are now more what were considered male dominated territory, more and more women are coming forward, and inevitably by sheer weight of numbers in the years to come they will be er, they will come forward, and i'm sure we will find on a say, chief officers for the county council. going back to hire and planning section, i bear that all in mind, i do fear that under hire and planning especially, when it says at least they're not at least that is verging on the possible discrimination, because as councillor said, if no one, all all the best males forward, and they're all all better than the females, after four years, say, the erm, surely the highest paid, the temptation is going to be say, that er, for example , that er inferior female employee instead of a inferior female to a male. erm, i think that sums it up. when you've coped with a positive situation, which is in fact, i believe is is er, will do more harm that good, as a personal i believe, well, two things, i can assure you that married women will remain the one of the most issue on selection. positive action rather than positive discrimination is the approach, and that, these are targets not erm, contracts, and if after four to eight years, it may well be the case that women have been taken on and have left and at the end of the time, that there there is no woman chartered engineer. but there are targets, and and i think targets are important in order to shape a culture. right. if nobody else wants to speak, erm, councillor you're to deliver the recommendation. thank you. recommendations one and two. right. thanks, that's paper g. if we could move on to paper h. trade union recognition. jack. yes, chair, if i may, it'll be relatively quick. we brought a a report to you, er, last time, in relation to trade union recognition in the er b sector, giving up most of our erm, employees have now gone to the independent colleges. we undertook to, you sorry, you authorised us to de-recognise the three unions that were recognised in that field, if the unions agreed, i have to report that two of them have, and the other one naturally, discussions are still going on. we will report further as necessary. any comments? no is it agreed with a recommendation. agreed. agreed. thank you. paper i. agenda item ten. local government reorganisation. staff commission report. thank you, chair. i'm not sure to what extent we in lincolnshire will have to take the local government staff commission seriously. i'm not at all sure that er, monday's announcement will er, make it any clearer, but we will see. it is, however, right and proper that we do report to this sub- committee on the activities of the staff commission, and that i do in the paper before you. in paragraphs two onwards, i give the names of the local governments staff commission, erm, what their statutory it is, and can i just point out at the bottom of the page, paragraph five, please remember that the staff commission is advisory and it has in itself no mandatory powers. it may recommend to the government and the government makes its powers, but in itself, it cannot er make any mandatory arrangements. it can merely advise. paragraph six, detailed what the secretary of state of the environment is asking the staff commission to advise him on, and paragraph seven, gives some details of a circular which the staff commission has already put put out, which for the moment at least, really more applies to other authorities such as cleveland, who are now, or the isle of wight, who are now in to this particular situation. staff commission has issued a number of consulta or has issued a consultation paper, and i detail that in paragraph eight, and in our response to that, basically, we have said the nineteen seventy-four arrangements for the staff commission seemed to have worked very well, and we hope the staff commission will, the new staff commission will stick very closely to that, and only vary them when they've got a perfectly good reason for doing so. in paragraph nine, i report that erm, members of this council including the chair of this committee, vice chair committee councillor met with this local government staff commission here in these offices. erm, we have a very useful meeting. we direct our, directed our input in our meeting on two erm, strands. firstly, erm, issues of principle, and i i've outlined those in item nine one six, and then acquainted them with the lincolnshire situation, special things that we thought applied in lincolnshire, that they ought to be aware of. clearly, for example, how er, employee prime card, including for example , the erm, p s u arrangements that we have here, which is perhaps not common to other parts of the country and so forth . and we made all these points clear to them, we also very much drew their drew their attention to making sure that any rules or advice they gave, did actually work out in an equal opportunity way. there's some danger that you can erm design rules, without understanding what the effect of those would be, on perhaps women employees of local authorities. we drew all those to their attention. some of it was clearly new to them, and er, they made the right responses. in addition, i agree and i have now done so, supplied them with further information about this county's employee profile, and that's sir, is where the matter now rests. thank you, anybody want to ask any questions on local contribution. not really. sorry i was just commenting er, you know, we just want to work in the county of lincolnshire, i presume. that's right. i mean, there there are two issues. the first is, where is lincoln going, lincolnshire going to left after the local erm, government commission put their proposals forward and the government have a look at them, and then secondly, what our, as we note from item eleven, a fuller report will be brought to this sub-committee when the local government staff commission or the secretary of state to give us definitive advice. so we're waiting on two fronts in a sense. anything else. just, just to comment on councillor er, one thing i think we highlighted after the meeting with the they're sort of working awareness of the setup in lincolnshire, if you look at the er, structure of the er, commission, one from personnel,chief executives they did seem to have er, very little knowledge of a rural shire county. and if you look at, er in para six, arrangements for staff transfers,you couldn't find staff transferring en bloc. they didn't realise the implications of that in lincolnshire was regrettable centralised in a system operating out of lincoln. you know, on er, sort of long process over a number of years. if er there was the in lincolnshire, try and transfer those, you know, en bloc it's just not on. and especially with the age group higher er, and again not being disrespectful to anyone, it is, is a lot, the average age is much higher in some of these administrative posts. in other words, people have settled into an environment where they live, and to even attempt to get to talk and get themselves out. you six off to boston, you six are go round to you know, just stamp them, you know lincoln. and, anyway, we did put them in the picture, they left much more knowledgeable than when they came. that that,i mean, the er, guy from er doncaster was referring to his experiences in nineteen seventy- four, wasn't he?urban area, which is completely different to lincolnshire. and it worried me that these are the sort of people that would have been advised into the committee. if our officer had not sent them away with lots of facts and information. the fact that they do that which i've now supplied. that's the whole yes. only one significant point is that the county council's workforce that has more than twenty per cent of staff over fifty years of age, which is quite unusual compared to other local authorities, and it has quite serious implications for the pension fund, mm. in terms of paying out any enhancements if people take early voluntary retirement, or are made, erm, if a package is with, at at at the time of government reorganisation. so that's quite a significant erm, issue that we've brought to their attention. right. do we agree that the report should be noted. agreed. agreed. agreed. thank you. can then we then move to paper j. local government superannuation scheme. there's two parts to it. the efficiency scrutiny and the compensation regulations, and jack's going to deal with both of them. thank you. if i may i'll tackle the second one first, and that is to say the proposed er alteration to the compensation regulations. i think it's wise for the local government superannuation scheme. erm, we were consulted by the a c c as it were, between committees and had to respond on proposals for giving individual local authorities wider discretions in paying compensation to their employees, erm, the issue here actually summarised quite well in the digest that you already looked at paper c. the relevant which, at one of which was that the a c c sought powers for local authorities to have a discretione a discretion to award up to an extra, up to fifty two weeks pay in addition to existing statutory requirements. the proposals department of the environment are actually for sixty- six weeks, but including existing statutory requirements, which can be as much as thirty weeks for the long serving employee. therefore we have supported the a c c line on the basis of the flexibility that it would give you, as an employer, bearing in mind, you don't have to do anything, it will be your choice in the individual case, er, within your policies. we've, as i say, we've supported that. since then, there's also been erm, consultation as to whether that principle, or rather those extensions should be implied =plied to your other pensionable employee groups, i.e. teachers and firemen. the consultation at present is on teachers and the department for education's view is, that those regulations should not be extended to teachers, but the support of the director of education, county fire officer and county treasurer we have erm, suggested that any change to the local government superannuation scheme should be extended to those other groups, because quite frankly you can't complicate different arrangements if you simple take the score. but if you like, governments could do this for the non-teaching staff and not do that for the teaching staff. so i hope that you will agree or confirm the action that we've taken in expressing those sorts of views. one more thing, if i may, we've just been told of the government's first response to the consultation arrangements, sorry, wrong wrong item, it's all right. stop. right. it's an answer, it's on item two. fine. contributions on item two before we move on to item one. as logic demands right, okay, can we go then, to item one. yes, chair, as as as as some management will probably know, erm, the department for environment has had an efficiency scrutiny report, on the local government superannuation scheme, and the finance sub-committee er agree county treasurer's proposals for comment on that, as it were, since the recommendations of the scrutiny report are set out there in paragraph one three of the report before. the three main headings, and i'd like to concentrate on the de-regulation and the flexibility points rather than administration of this . erm, it was not possible to get your views in, as it were, personnel terms rather than financial terms on that er report, but er as it were on your behalf, we supported the treasurer's er recommendation for reasons set out in paragraph one four, and if i can er explain that for you a little little more, de-regulation could mean, that each employing authority has it's own scheme of superannuation, or not, and if not would simply leave employees in a position of taking them off the state scheme s e r p s or going for a personal pension. clearly, apart from the financial arguments, in terms of employment policies, if that is the case, erm, then, employees who are present see their pay, their total pay or reward package, has included the benefits of the local government evaluation scheme, will say, well you take that away, or you'd better start doing something about our pay arrangements in recompense. and that itself, takes you into inevitably, the cost side of that, and clearly against that background there are potential industrial relations implications, if those proposals go forward. i hope that on that basis, first of all, that you agree with the views that we expressed in anticipation of your view, and secondly, erm, that we really do need to look at through you, these sort of aspects of pension management on behalf of the county council. don't want to interfere at all in the business of the administration of the scheme, the investment side of it, but there are clearly, discretionary areas in the superannuation regulations, which effect significantly your pay, employment and reward policies. hope you agree with that, er chair, all of the recognised unions were informed of the county council's approach in early decision, and supported it entirely. sorry, and it is this one that we just got an update on. erm, and if if i can just, we will treasurer and ourselves, be reporting to you in more detail on this, in the appropriate areas, but suffice it to say, that the government are accepting the need for further investigation on some of these issues, to look at some of them in the light of the national b u d report, on superannuation and pension arrangements generally, have nevertheless agreed that individual authorities ought to have some more discretion, and the compensation regulations that i mentioned earlier, is one example of that. thank you. i mean, it does seem to appropriate to say, that the both the personnel sub-committee and investment sub-committee are inter-related committees with common agendas. quite simply, personnel policies that we set can have major impacts on erm, the funding of our superannuation scheme, and i think that at some stage in the future, it may be appropriate to think about a seminar for both of those committee members, to look at both the the good report and the the department of environment scrutiny, erm so. anybody want to make a contribution. councillor yes, just a point of definition, really. i i i just wondered with the so-called if staff members independent advice, erm, on what is best for them to do with superannuation pension scheme. normally, we'd have yeah, normally we'd have roy here. but he's in hospital, i believe, at the moment. who wants to take but but but the answer is that, i'm not sure of officers, but it's something like county treasurer, one of the existing county treasurers and the superannuation manager, roy are registered as independent advisers. i think they may be rethinking that, and maybe bringing proposals back to you, but that's the crunch. councillor i totally agree that there is er i think, probably a need for seminar, you know,it's an area, it's er, it's changing, you know, all the time. erm, we all know the problems that some people have got into by opting out. yes. yes. and that er, you know, has lead to a lot of misery in some cases, er, also i mean there's question of viability of our own scheme and i er, think er you know, er there are a number of questions which i as a lay-man would like to be, you know, i think the seminar is probably the right to do that. i would er, if it depends on timing, because i'm not sure when government reports are coming out. anyone excuse me. right. do we agree the recommendations, then. agree. thank you. right. a trip into europe. item twelve, paper k, european community recent development. thank you. the committee has asked from time to time, that i keep it updated with er european legislation, in so far as it affects employments matters, and this i've intended to do in paper k. there are two appendix. appendices. appendix a reports a european councillor of directive, ninety-three stroke one-oh-four stroke e c. which erm, is being challenged, or would like to be challenged by the u k including european court of justice erm, and that will be heard in the timescale that these things take place. if it were to be erm, not annulled is it likely that the directive would affected from something like ninety, late nineteen-ninety-six. paragraph four gives you this summary of the main provisions of this directive, and there they are, for your consideration or observation. appendix b is rather one earlier in the process where the european community have produced a green paper, on european social policy, which will have impact upon employment legislation later on in the process. this green paper is capable of being commented on, by this sub-committee through, our normal channel would be the a c c. it doesn't contain a lot of detail, it is a matter of principle, and er, hopes and aspirations. where we think and i mentioned this in the conclusion, and indeed, in the recommendation, where we think as officers it rather falls short, is that, although it does mention in the text, equal opportunities in all our er, activities as we would understand it here. it fails to put forward any options for accept for erm, equal rights, for disability or race, and we think this is an omission, and if it were your intention to write a response, we would want to include that point in the response we make. thank you, chris. can we look at appendix a, first. the recommendation is simply that it be noted and i wondered if anybody wanted to make a contribution, or ask any questions, put anything forward, on appendix a. councillor yes, thank you, chairman. i would, i would hope that as erm, as a committee we can support all these objectives, er, it does give me some cause for concern, that our own government is objecting to these provisions. erm, just to comment on, for example, maximum average erm, hourly week, forty-eight hours. erm, only the other day in the transportation department we were talking about drivers hours and er, it's obvious implication there on road safety where the government are trying to relax the provisions, for what's the european committee are trying to tighten them up. and er, we see on the media, very often, the problems faced by doctors in hospitals working eighty hours. once again a proper scandalous situation, that we we should be working to er relieve, but doesn't seem to be the way that the government's moving. i hope we can support this one. thank you. councillor er, yes, mr chairman. it night-shift not to exceed eight hours. quite a number of people on of twelve. er, how's it going to affect them, they're quite happy to do it, and er. there won't be a deregulation, of course. hang on, jim,ji ji , i'll write your name down, all right. right, hang on, right. carry on. you see people of priority, that deliver employment, mr chairman. whether they go on late at night, or, hair cut the next morning, it's not, it's not to the wall, but er, this would appear to cut right across the board. that they aren't going to be allowed to do that. which means some changing at night, or doing a bit with the night, or other one. right. how, how, how does that fit in to right. that's that's part of, of presumably, one of the objections from the u k government, erm, that essentially, it's saying that that these arguments can't be, justified on health and safety grounds and that that the approach, de-regulation and freedom in the market to al allow people to do what they want to do, which is the fact that they, if they want to work twelve hours, then presumably the government and yourself are supporting that that freedom. on the other hand, one can argue that it's not about, necessarily, what individuals want to do, it's about providing a framework that is good in health and safety terms. well, well, this this is what i'm getting at, mr chairman, mr chairman. er quite a few, i know, in security work, they prepared to go on not later than eight o'clock at night. so they can stay on normally, in some part of the year it is dark, but yet there's other people around and about, and they get in situ before very late, so the twelve and twelve suits them, and it's better for health and safety, and erm, in other , mr chairman. regulation tends, is intending is what they want to do. regulation is intended to protect everybody's interest. councillor erm, i'm glad you said that, chairman,i was i was just thinking erm, cut out the but, regarding on equal opportunities, erm, policies, as we've been discussing already, i would have thought housewives would have been delighted to have conservative hours rest presumably i just thought i was the right contribution helps our meetings. councillor er, thank you, chairman. well, i give a vote that erm, because certainly not everybody's aware that er, this er service director is merely a way to get round to payments that different people have opt out of the social chapter. well, what people forget is that, if you put employers in a straight-jacket, the people who suffer first, are the employees, which as you appreciate will not take on the future. one of the reasons why er kenneth has a respectable crippling this country, is because there is more flexibility over there to this country. advice is taking people off, with, in the knowledge that they will not necessarily, er, er, er put themselves in a straight-jacket. er, we keep meaning look at certain things report a eight hour week, including overtime, have a record period of four months and then the filing industry take it away, the work is seasonal. that's the of con of considerable concern, and it will mean possibly that faith er farm workers who rely on overtime to increase it's wages will will suffer as a result. so i do hope er that we that we do not support this, er, we've got to remember, it's not, europe, is not the end all and be all of the world, there is a there is a far east out there, there's the japans of the world, the koreans. their employee costs are much lower than ours, their social costs are much lower than ours and in and in the real world, we have to compete with them, and the boiling point will come from being competitive, supplying goods and services at a cost that the other countries will not by putting themselves in straight-jackets. thanks. councillor oh yes, i've come to er just ask the advice on the officers on the appendix a six er, negotiations., i.e. flexibility clauses for certain circumstances, for certain mistakes. flexibility er in implementation, and i think that that is the necessary part of it. but what, i think we do need to have is quite a a a a a we've not a no solution body who would agree with me, er you know, some of the things that have gone on within the er er agricultural industry in terms of gang masters, which is if if surely if if if we had been more clearly defined if would enforce probably the whole industry into disrepute, and i feel that we do need a a a a a a a framework, with a with a supply into europe, because in the end we will not just be competing against other european countries we will be competing against the third world and some producers that are producing very different situations, so, i i think er, and and i'm concerned that it is the, it is that delegation, and it is the interpretation that our own government will put on it, because there's been so much mythology surrounding europe. i went to the er conference that we had at stokewatchford, which together with er, john, er my vice chairman er on europe, the other week, and there is so much mythology, er, that has been dispensed by people who are half-hearted towards europe or got a vested interest in no has not been committed to europe, and and they use this, and in fact the classic example was, that, one of our own lincolnshire m p's claimed that he had saved , lincolnshire's from the ravages of europe. absolute nonsense and he took an accolade for that, when in fact, it was never under any threat from european legislation, it was our own british food act, and that, our own interpretation of european war, that has brought the threat to us. so i think that there's, i welcome, you know, the social chapter on that basis, but it does clearly say, and prescribe, er something that can only be universally applied, and if there are, there is need, there is need, er there is scope for that, with delegation through particular industries, particular circumstances. thank you,thank you. councillor and then councillor and then we can take the recommendation. first of all, councillor comments,erm, you know, there seems to be this this er conservative mentality, that is let's drive all our working conditions down to the level of the competition, which means, you know, we would have a a mining industry if we were prepared to put children in, like that do in columbia. now, now i, now i, personal arguments has always been that we raise people's standards, out there, throughout the world. not not, bring people down to the worst conditions that we can find in the world to be competitive. this is, it it's not the attitude that we need to be taking, and there's no where else we'd be supporting in, in in this, er, opposition to this particular european council of directive. it, i mean, it disappoints me that we are the country in europe that that's always dragged, kicking and screaming to the table, to discuss things like this, which are the benefit of the majority of the people in the in the european community. it's just those few, committed capitalists that see profits as the only, the only motive to be on this earth, that seem to be, was was they seem to have the influence in this in this country, and and like er, i'm i'm hoping that this er, er british government objection to the court of justice does fail, as as is er suggested it may do, erm, and let's let's hope it does, and let's hope that we get this er, implemented. thank you, thank you. councillor yes, er thank you chair. i can't see anyone can disagree with the objection oh you can, i mean, we've just heard some. yes, well probably, it's time for me to try and change his mind. er, because er, we, do we want the rest of the world to follow us, not for us to follow the rest of the world. and he mentioned about both competing with china and er er the third world countries. very recently, not so long ago, i saw on programme on india, in in one of the sweat-shops, you saw young children, boys and girls about twelve years old, on their hands and knees making matches, and a man walking down the centre with a stick. that was, that's the reality of cheap imports from the third world. now, the er, whilst we cannot expect them to adopt say our ideals, because we are er, you know, we're probably more modernised in lots of ways, but we can set a standard which they work towards, and er, he mentioned about the fact that people er, the unemployment's coming down a lot with the jobs, they're just part-time jobs, and they're very cheap paid jobs, and very er bad conditions for a lot of people as far as health and safety goes. because we mustn't miss the point, it does say, it's er, the government is objecting be on the grounds of health and safety. now this is leading towards that, to make people work too long, especially part-time jobs, come from one to another. they could be very tired, we've seen er, er the consequences of that and er, a lot of er these accidents happening on er, with the coaches and one thing and another. because people have done one job, during the day, and then having to go on to another job at night, and make no mistake, that, you know, this is the sort of legislation that we need, to protect us, the public from what, you know, the consequences of somebody working right. right then, so what's that called? what is four beat note called? erm oh ! a semibreve. a semibreve, right. and a, one beat note is called is a a crotchet. a two beat? er, minim. half beat? ah . packet of crisps. packet of crisps. oh er qua quaver. good. and a ha a quarter of a beat is do you know what a half mean? do you know what the, a word for half is? mm mm. no. what's half a circle called? er, semicircle. yeah, so semibreve. no, half of a quaver. oh. semiquaver. semi, that's a quarter. a quarter. and, a quarte , a half of a quarter half of a quarter. i dunno. it's called a a demisemiquaver. demisemiquaver. yes. you don't have to know that for now. okay . you don't have to even know until you pass your grade one. oh right, so did you have a good going to listen in to actual conversation. are you recording? oh sir, can i start again yep. please sir? dee right, now you're doing what i used to do what i used to do when i started, okay? you're rushing. i still do. okay. you're, you're rushing through. you are, you're starting off so you go,, then you suddenly realize, i know this, you're going . right. right, you gotta do it steady because all of these are exactly the same things aren't they? the ra , they're yeah. all what like, what type of notes are they? crotchets. and what's that last one? er qua , er a minim. and, d'ya notice something special about that minim? yes. that one there? yes. it's upside down. that's right, cos it's, why's that? yeah, erm d'ya know? it's, oh yeah, we stay on the left hand. no, it's,almo , almost right but and yeah, but, it's cos it's high up. once oh yeah. once a note is drawn higher than that middle line the tails start to go in the opposite direction. oh. yeah? right, yeah. let me find one song which has got a mixture. there. alright? oh right. yeah. there, like that. you see? is that hard to play that? no it's not hard at all. oh. once you know the basics it's fairly easy. right. once more then. to try an , i i'll click and you do it in time. one, after three right. okay. one , two, three. after three so it's one, two, three. just then. oh sorry . so right. one, two, three. almost. try again now. one, two, three. right, now try it once more. okay. one, two, three. good. excellent. i had to stall on the . just there. right now what number does it say under the, underneath that c? one. what, what finger's that then? erm this one. and, what, what's the other number? five, so you start on erm this finger. alright. so, let's hear it. it's, now right, yeah. you we , i'm glad you said that cos, i'm not sure if i told you this before but d'ya remember what these numbers here mean? i've told you. oh. tt, erm does it mean like how many in a bar? yeah. it means, four means crotchets. that's what four means. ah ah. it means crotchet. it's stupid i know. okay. and how many crotche , if there's a four it's a crotchet, and the yeah. thing above tells you how many there are. oh so that's two crotchets. and count, how many crotchets in that bar? two. and that one? two. and that one? erm two. there's, yeah, that's right. so now this one how many crotchets are there? erm three. and how many crotchets in the bar? one, two two three. one, two, three. what about here? one, two. right there's two. that's good. now you see that little dot afterwards? yeah. that means half, put the note in half, so what's half of two? one crotchet one. right. add half. half is one. not right. okay, it's all, the actual saying is, half the note added on. oh! right er so, what's half of two? half of two, one. half of, yeah, half of two. yeah. added on to two. three. that's right. so what's half of one? er, a half. add it on to one. er, two. one and oh no. a half. one and half of to , one and a half. right now, let's see, erm let's try another one. four. go on you do that one. you've got a dotted four, dotted semigrave. right. half of four is two. mhm. add another two mm. is four. alright. just you got four, here's four, yeah? right. you wanna find out what half of four is. yeah. you don't actually half it but you work it out, it's two. yeah. so you get those two and you add them on the end. yeah. that's six. okay? same with two, you've got two you ge , cut them in half, add one. oh right, to make three. three. ah right. so erm that's this, you wouldn't get this one, but what about eight? a dotted eight on. and you cut it yeah. four, and you add two. two. right now. you got eight, yeah? half of eight is? half of eight, four. a , add four onto eight. four onto eight? oh. er, twelve. right, so the answer's twelve? twelve, yeah. so let's try a higher one. right. twelve itself. twelve right. cut it in half, six you add four? no you add six onto twelve. add six to twelve because twelve is the number you started with, yeah? start mm. the number you start with, you keep that in your head and you always add the number you find out onto that. so if that's been cut in half, mm. you always add the other half yeah, you add wha onto the twelve? yeah, d'ya know. the number you cut in half yeah. remember how it was in the first place so if you cut four in half, remember four yeah. and add half of four. oh, so that makes six. yeah. alright. yeah. do it to eight. right eight. right you cut it in four, so that's four but you remember the eight, so you add the other four mhm. which is twelve. good. you got it now? yeah. yeah? you sure? right, so how many in that bar? er, three. good. right now, what about this one? it's,ga do you remember what will happen? do you remember what started this conversation? er, yeah. what happened? what did you do? i erm i went, one, two faster. yeah. no, you wa , you went i went one, two, three. one, two, three. oh right. and there's only two. oh yeah. so really you'd say one, two, or one, two, three, four. okay? so, go through that again. one, two,one, ah, i keep missing my way through to these that's it. try now. right, now, the problem was there you, you started off too quickly didn't you? i started , yeah. so let's take it a bit slower. one, two, three. that's it. yeah. try again, yeah? alright. one, two, three. i'll say . oh. keep going. alright, one two right one count yourself in. one, two, again. one okay. a bit faster. right. what about this? right. ooh! oh, like c d, now where's b? is it that, that, that must mm. be right. c, b, a, c, b f it's quite confusing though. c, c, c a, f. oh c, a, f, right. i'll try it this one. one, two, three. sorry. bit of a it's alright take it's , take your time, yeah. go on. think about it. one, two, three. right. i keep forgetting to. i'll play it , i'll play it and you listen. so, so you know if you've gone wrong. ready? i'll do it again okay? oh. alright. better go soon. good. again. yeah? okay. once more. right, will you bring it up to speed. here we go, one, two, three. good. right. now you count the amount see how long, how long is that bar? it's, a three. good. so you count, you hold it down for three. then take it off. okay. so remember you hold it down for the right length and quickly take your hand off, as soon as you've done it. yeah. so, let's try it again, yeah? okay, one, two, three. two, three two, three. good. right. that's good. you've made a lot of progress on that. good. right. no, sit down. sit down, we haven't finished yet. oh well sorry i thought no, no, no. we just right. we did this didn't we? we started on that. erm oh yeah! yeah. have you had a chance to play it at all? erm i do , i i practise it, i practised it on monday and erm that's alright. good. see i'm glad. just as long as you i forgot to play it with the tune right though. sort that, right i just . go on then, let's let's see how you do that. see how you do. yeah, so do i start on this one? with erm let's start on this one now. you would c start on this one, but we'll start on that for now. oh right. c, e, e no it's e f c, e f e, e e d, right. one, two, good. one more c, yeah. okay. carry on. yeah. okay. okay. let's do it a bit faster, ready? mm. one, two. right, see, you've got, you've actually gotta do , so,at that speed. okay? alright. don't so do it so early. do i start on this side then? yeah. oh right. one, two. that's it, go on. good! well done! right. for homework oh. i've got homework, sorry about that. i'm used to sa , i'm used to being told that at school. i want you to write the names of these notes up here. the names? the names of them. right. yeah? remember this is bass flat. d'ya remember the names yeah. of bass flat? bass, er pardon? bass? d'ya, d'ya remember the name of er, of notes? do you remember the rhyme? i know. a b c d e f right. d'ya remember every good boy deserves football? oh! oh yeah. and face? yeah. do you remember that? yeah? i remember when you say it like that . and this one, great big dog from america. and, all cows eat grass. oh! right! right then. okay. i've gotta off by heart. if you can learn those, er that's good. right. okay. and what are the names? what are these? what are they? those are rests. rests. so i don't have to do those? so you don't anything. you just, you just, don't, don't write anything. a rest means, your hand has a rest. literally has a rest, you don't do anything. oh. okay? erm, and when you put the names just play through it once. you know, just so you know what it is, so when you come into the lesson next week you'll be able to sit down and attempt it. yeah. okay? i try making the erm homework shouldn't i, a bit longer than ten minutes? cos like, it's before i go to bed i i sort of get my, my organ out and yeah. pra practise. good. right. that's, that's great. if you can do that? thank you for your help. right. i've gotta ask you how are you? i'm thirteen. that's, right. okay. the serbs and all those are signing a peace agreement. are they? at night. so what does that mean? that means that er sa , america says they won't do bomb them or anything yet. no? that's a shame. but erm they've told them that they better keep to the peace agreement. it's ratified by the bosnian government it's gotta be. they've signed the bands agreement right? but if they don't, if they break it or that then er they expect some trouble. i was talking about er er erm, cannabis and opium and things like that last night, now, i'm sure i'm right and these others were wrong, how do you get opium? it's sta you erm draw up describe how you think it's the seeds of er is it the seeds? hang on, let me think. let me, maybe, i dunno. cos they reckon it's the ga hang on! wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! don't say what they think. mm. i know you gotta dry something off. well they reckon it's the seeds of the poppy. no it's not, cos you, you eat them. i don't believe that. you can eat poppy seeds. i, d'ya know that, do you know our poppies in the garden, those big ones? yeah. do you when i sa , if you split them at the edge, do you know when the things died off, the poppies there? yeah. and when it's still green if you get a little knife and just slit down like that, a sap comes out, all yeah. sa sa sap. it's not it's a white sap substance. because on, you have poppy seeds on rolls. yeah. black seeds, those are poppy seeds. that's right. but er, is a, this sap comes out, right? yeah, and you dry that. and that's what so it's opium isn't it? and it turns to what? is it a powder? i think so. a white powder. int that what they collect? i'll ask kay. don't they scrape it off? yeah. that's what i thought. ooh! none of them agree. ooh no that's wrong. who's none? er erm was it mum? don, well mum wasn't what did mum say? certain. this don and his wife and er gail and her husband, you know intelligent people. you should have told them that about the poppy seeds. you should have said, you eat poppy seeds on rolls. yeah! cos you do. yeah! well they even said that! i dunno but, i would have thought mum would have said that. yeah. but no! no, no one thought that was right. there was still arguments. did you, did tha that come up about eating them? poppy seeds? someone said about the poppy, you can eat poppy seed, but then someone else said no wonder i was addicted to rolls, you know, poppy seeds rolls, but erm no i didn't argue about it, i just oh well okay, that's fine. i said i thought it was that way but, you know, agreed with them. but i'm sure i was right and they were wrong. do you know what i find amazing? mm mm? how the shop in trungeon square the chinese restaurant right yes this stays open? yeah i tho , i've been thinking that as i walk by it. you never see anyone in it. no. do you think it's a front for something? chinese laundry. unless it's cos they live there as well don't they? yeah. maybe. so that's like their accommodation. whereas other people i wonder if they lived in their one. probably don't do they? what one? the other people in the other shops, would they live in them do you think? ah ah! would the newsagent live, they'd live in there wouldn't they? no they don't. would the greengrocers be living there? no they don't. i mean nazim's dad does n't. na which one's that? nazim. no, which shop is that? ee, i dunno, he lives, his shop is in edmonton, he lives, lives down here one . oh i see, yeah. but cos i wonder if the rest of them cos he has to work at five o'clock each morning. oh! ah they've gone. you wouldn't even know that was in there would you? oh yeah, a little bit of . and there's a tandoori. there's hundreds of the bloody things int there? hong kong house. i wonder if it's and there's usually about three people in there. ah, two. and a china, and one of them's the daughter of the person who own it. can see more outside here i reckon. oh that bloody tape! video. jump in and get it straight away. have you got any money of you? i haven't. no. i'll have a look when i stop. yeah, we'll find some, go on. you got no money? yeah i got it? two fifty? yeah. erm can i also introduce you to the fact there erm maureen i will explain briefly about er maureen's presence here. longmans, the well-known publishers are producing something called the spoken corpus which is er a a record of the way in which english is used. erm which yes erm the the aim of the exercise is to record several millions of words of spoken english and they translate them into erm a work i bet she's a friend of yours. and are translated into a work for academic and study for the purpose of general knowledge about the english language. erm i took the liberty of saying yes to maureen to come along and record the language debate . i must stop using my words so carefully. yes and erm shh it is anonymous. it's merely recording the words we use are taken down on a scrap of paper context i don't but used. the the there is nothing and erm and erm i would really formally ask the board if, if there is any objection to our deliberations being recorded and taken down and used for another purpose. if there is anything that comes up and one feels sensitive about then then we can ask for them to switch the machine off. maureen okay? thank you. if i could just put it over here because it'll be i think i, i'm a little bit far away over there. would that be okay? yes. erm i can possibly yeah, put it near roger, he does most of the talking. well i did gather that. if if i co , if i could just put it there right. it doesn't record does it? mm? it doesn't record nods does it? no there's no camera. right. right. and if i sit here tape runs out i'll see it and click. right. it's running now. thank you. well we don't have to pay attention to it and er it's not necessary to record every word is it? you want a selection of things and we'll just pull out we don't have to speak at it or anything. no, not at all. no, no. no. right. to the agenda. erm apologies for absence. erm er er mrs, jackie is not coming. er i think he's in london he said. or at the metro centre i'm not sure which. somewhere down south anyway. anybody else? no? oh yes , yes, sent his apologies, right. er minutes of the previous board meeting. the sixth of may. take them matters arising that aren't on the agenda. minute by minute. so if anybody has anything they wish to raise perhaps they could raise it as i mention the minute. ten ninety two eleven ninety two twelve ninety two well can i just say that the the process of replacing er people on maternity leave is progressing. andrew has been appointed the temporary administrator. he came from the er amongst other things inland revenue and er very welcome addition to staff and er has quite a, a good grasp of many er sort of national bodies and institutions and so on and is very helpful, and is settling in very well and well-liked. erm the other posts interviews are progressing. we have made as we intended to do, if you remember we er advertised widely in accordance with our equal opportunities policy, er for that post but also i think in accordance with equal opportunity we wanted to give people the er chance to develop their range of skills internally for some of the er lower grade posts and therefore er initially the other posts er have been advertised internally and we filled the temporary er assistant administration erm post er internally. er that is deborah who is er works in reception. erm and we are now moving on to fill the senior customer services post. er we did erm er go through the selection procedure with internal candidates but were unable to appoint, and so therefore are advertising that in the press in the normal way er although both candidates have been told that they may reapply. erm and then there's, there will be obviously a knock on effect in erm depending on who's appointed. and that's proceeding according to plan. no more pregnancies to report? not as yet, no. three's quite enough. erm minute thirteen ninety two twelve three actually i just did twelve ninety two. i see. there weren't, you want , yes? that one. oh yes. right so twelve three er just to report that channel four have actually er renewed their sponsorship for the film festival yet again. er still got to be there for it. well, but they did say in their letter that this will be the last year because er from next year well irrespective of whether they're sequestered i hope our sponsorship money won't be sequestered with it but that's a good word to use. it is isn't it? yes. we use it a lot in these meetings don't we? er that irrespective of their se sequestration and other ations erm or isms er they are going to sponsor us this year but not in future. and erm the only other outstanding sponsor from last year was northern rock and that has been a bit of a qu a problem because er it's, we haven't had a closing gala event which might attract them but just recently erm paul who as you know performed last year with his band so er well er is, had rang me and said that they are doing something in venice and they could in fact take the boat to hull rather than to dover and bring it here and i'm, so i'm working on the assumption that we might have that. it's a film called seventh heaven which is about a love affair in the sewers in nineteen twenty seven. sewers of paris, incidentally, in nineteen twenty seven. oh that's alright then. and it's wonderfully, wonderfully romantic and i think therefore may suit er the board and guests of northern rock er very well. er and hopefully i can attract them to that. we'll have to see if we can or not. i don't know. if not we'll try northumbria water. yes good idea. thank you. erm thirteen one. th there isn't a erm a note on this one. do, do you want to discuss this now or later? well we under attendance report? well i , yes. come to on that one. right. . thirteen two fourteen one fourteen two which you're reporting on later. yes. fourteen three. yes i erm i would like to point out that we are looking er very closely at the sales and i've just had a report on my desk from the head of finance which is the beginning of the discussions in the management team on er the sales erm and relation of loss of sales to profit and so on and the now we, the shop is in that position we've had time t we have more time to assess how things are working out. we shall be analyzing that and i shall be reporting back to you in due course. fifteen sixteen one will you be reporting on anything here? no. later on ? erm anything you want to ? don't think so. erm yes, there is one thing there. not later on, i i'd like to do it now. estimates were sought to replace the refreshment counter and erm indeed we went ahead with one of the estimates and the firm then went bankrupt in the meantime which erm i imagine is something colin that you're well used to. occupational hazard these days. er so there will be er a loss to us there of about three hundred pounds because erm we were asking for something to be made and therefore i think i would say quite rightly but in view of this experience perhaps never again, er made some advance contribution, you know to the cost or made some, gave some money in advance blah blah blah. that erm it might be wise or advisable, i'd be interested to hear your views colin and others perhaps even council procedures, you know on, on how far you can go in checking out er because i mean, you know you get something which tells you what was happening three weeks ago. and actually we've had a very full report from the auditors which makes extremely interesting and somewhat hilarious reading. i suppose er thank goodness we didn't er invest any further money in their operation. but i mean really if the auditors don't put, point out some of these things like the level of directors' salaries and the level of erm ongoing deficit and blah blah blah which now come to light, i don't see really how we can ever hope to discover them. but it well i mean it it i mean it happened in circles in, in the oh yes i wasn't er in the civic centre there was, wasn't there a case where leisure services bought er terribly it's a touchy subject that. oh right. it was some such very similar situation but it involved a lot more money than you've lost. i hope i i er yes. in in that connection i think perhaps what we could usefully say just by way of comparison for rough guidance that there is a regulation or or something like that which says, if i remember rightly, that erm er payments must not be made for either services or goods not supplied above a figure of two thousand pounds without er being taken to committee first. mhm. council discretion. so there is a check built in to the, to the council procedures. which you mm. you might like to think of. not the figure of two thousand i suspect yes. but a figure appropriate amount . well we do have in front of us don't we, the paper mm. about the financial controls and erm . but erm it's it's an irrevocable situation is it? presumably the materials that were bought not are still there. the receiver's got to dispose of them at some stage. mm. did the assets all disappear? er without going back to the report i have no i i i can't remember the the fine details. i mean you know i'm just reporting to you er i mean i don't think it's worth list of creditors. considerable discussion. we'll go on the list of creditors and if there happens to be any payment at the end of the day you will that's right. get a proportion of it. yes. i doubt whether there'll be penny in the pound. there won't be secure creditors like banks and so on will get the only thing i would say is never pay for anything in advance, particularly construction . yes. mm. and especially in the current climate. mm. and if they ask you to it probably means they're in trouble anyway. yes. mm. yes i think that's wise advice. yes. well i mean you know well the minutes perhaps you'll you'll we will pop that on to our comments and others. erm just briefly erm the adjustments to the toilet for the disabled and the yes they've all been done. however, talking of fascia you know i mean this is er we could make it er something else then happened which is a lorry went into it. so er and ripped off some letters blah blah blah, so that's ongoing, you know it's going to be replaced and the er people who did it admitted liability and so forth. you will notice we are now the tynes tynesid inema. no joke something or other is that project now finished or does this retain the yes it is apparently, yes. and so therefore i think it would be appropriate er to deliver to you the report of summers and partners for your information. yes, thank you. we'll have that for the next meeting. yeah erm sixteen two we will be discussing that draft. sixteen three sixteen four. what did you decide? well, i decided really, or we decided i suppose to er link it to the festival. er and therefore erm i think we'd like to to some degree wait and see a bit still because er i think that you know economic circumstances of this particular moment mean that we may just have to consider that further of seeing how things progress really between now and october. i certainly don't think with the sort of product we have at the moment that there will be any possibility of raising prices before then because i mean, you know, there just aren't any really films which are going to grab people. er but at the festival it is an appropriate moment. whether we would go to the full two fifty i think will have to be you know we'll have to wait till nearer the time . right. erm can i have the proposal that that was a correct record of our deliberations please? thank you john. a seconder? thank you susie. agreed?report. i wonder if we could ask we could take the other reports first chair? er attendance yes report and the management accounts because there are a number of things which have since, since these minutes er completed and we'd like to bring up in the report but er i think that we'd be as well to look at the i have no objection. and if we took the attendance report first, in relation to that then we can look at the material presented in the way to which you're accustomed. but in response and how fortuitous that er colin is with us today in response to er particularly colin but other people's requests for ah hello, yes. er i've just missed hearing my name taken in vain. again? yes. will you be able to share papers because er erm and therefore those papers which we're about to discuss, you had your admissions if you brought your papers with you yes? sorry i'm just, can i just sort this out before i go any further? yes. admission reports you had in the papers sent to you. well roger . and what i'm saying is we're just reversing the we're going to do the attendance report, financial report and then the chief executive's report because there are a number of issues which i'd like to raise within that. and, in respect of the admissions report, er as you will recall er colin and others thought that perhaps more information might be useful or would like er to see different ways in which the computer reports er on the er information mhm. erm and yes, sorry er yes. and i'm therefore gonna hand round these wodges of alternative erm material. i've got one of those you can see on the front what is on offer. they need to go right round. and i wonder john, yes. right that's right, if you send it right round. a copy. right, we're alright. you want some. there we are. susie hasn't got one. i wonder john if you would just like to introduce er jenny to the board. well jenny is my colleague under the new department of published and broadcast arts. joined on the first of june and is each other initially to and also as a general of what goes on. and then we are to allocate between us so responsibility . jenny you're very welcome. and and we yes, i'm not sure whether we're published or broadcast, i think we're probably narrowcast aren't we? never mind. well i hope fairly broad on these figures but er so what we have here er as i understand it, is a broad series of options yes. as to the information that can be produced by our computer. and really erm it's a question of what board members would find the most useful and erm and that's right. on the front of those options which are numbered in red there is a break er there is an in you know explanation of what is there. clearly any or all of these are possible but erm er naturally you would understand that if you had them daily by film you would be having you know ninety pieces of paper er and clearly that may not be appropriate at times well times, you know hundreds by the looks of it now but usually times ten at least. erm and any of these things could of course be brought to a meeting to be referred to. erm the thing which we keep daily is number six, is it? number six which is the thing that we have to look at. er this is the end of the day report and that we keep in a file and they, they could be brought. and that would give you all the information erm on a daily basis which could be referred to erm performance by performance. what you have now is an extract if you like. in other words it's a new it's something which is not done directly from the computer but which is using information the computer provides. it then erm is made up into this chart by somebody. i would like if possible not to do that any more, cos clearly that is just a duplication of material already elsewhere available. and if it were possible for you to decide that one of these options, one to eight, were to suit your regular and usual purposes at these meetings for general discussion then that obviously would be both a saving in erm time and labour and is one of the reasons why one installs computerized equipment so that you don't er then have to do it all manually as well. obviously i would be very loathe to agree to have to now provide different information again other than that which is going to be readily er available through the computers. but of course could do so if you so wished. it doesn't tell us how tall individual no. i was worried about that and er i think that's because it's a german system and everyone is assumed to be over six feet anyway or six feet wide or something. whether this stuff is available on retrieval because it seems to me what really matters are the trends. er i don't think one would ever have the stomach to go through all the detail. and even looking at the figures we get now, i mean others here will take a great deal of interest, one's interested in knowing where you're going and what's , you're looking at those figures yourself anyway. i would expect to get the broad picture and highlights and examples of . and that's what i would have thought was proper for the board to know about. i think beyond that you're getting to very detailed analysis which will take a lot of time, either yours or ours. and i would, i would, i would erm give the minimum and preferably use your own references. i think if you were to use another sheet altogether it would be for me at least unnecessary work. i think first of all we have to satisfy ourselves don't we that we're erm fulfilling our cultural obligations cultural policy. erm given that that is the case, what is, what is the next thing that we we need to know? are we making the most of the films that we show? are people er responding to good films? er, one of the things it won't tell you on here, whether it's a blazing hot day, whether there's snow on the ground or whether it's just pouring, dull and people are coming along. so there's, there are a number of variables which we, we will never know about. but i think colin your main concern wasn't it that perhaps we weren't hitting the right slots and ? use of plant i think was one of the things you were concerned about? sorry? use of plant i think really, wasn't it? one of the things. er er it was where break even points were. and what level of attendance was required to actually break even on a performance. and i don't wish to know if we've failed to break even on one occasion or whatever but the thing is how often are we failing to break even. and looking at that in relation to cultural policy. now is there a connection or isn't there a connection? the other thing that concerned me was particular slots which don't seem to ever produce much in the way of attendance or revenue. and whether we had to keep running those slots. and i agree i don't want to wade through everything but i, i think we need to lay down management information criteria, and only receive information if it's necessary on, on those headings. i e do we need to know that the trend is changing or do we need to know the particular slots where we get non performance. and i appreciate and i mean i've discussed with you the, the complications or you've got to keep open certain hours because you've got a catering facility and you've got certain members of staff and you've got to keep projectionists occupied etcetera. but it did, just my, my quick sieve every time we got these there always appeared to be a slot where it didn't seem to me to be worth being open and and operating mm. because it was such a disaster every time. and while you were, while you were using a film which you had in anyway for the next day's performance and putting in that slot mhm. it was still costing to stay open and operate. yes. er i mean they're the kinds of things i'm interested in knowing. i don't want to know the, the intricate de well sometimes i personally do, i'm interested. but i wouldn't have thought everybody would, would want to wade through it at all times. i i'd like er to personally take this away and have a think about it. mm. there's a lot of, there's a lot to absorb here and er i wouldn't want to make an immediate reaction. yes, i i i i've had these for a relatively short period of time. erm my, i haven't had the time to really absorb what is in them and obviously the board would feel the same. erm perhaps if, it might be useful if er members took it away? and thought about it. if they had the opportunity of er looking at it, seeing what there is to be learned. er if there were holes in the information or whether really whatever board members feel and erm we can consider it at the next meeting. mm. yes. it's obviously not, not of of er not of a great pressing not a very pressing matter. it's something which we can have the luxury of considering. just following what, what i raised earlier on chairman. is it possible, supposing you decide you want to have a look and see how well the two o'clock showing if there is one as such mhm mhm. can that be summed, can you can it do bars back analysis erm from tapes or whatever it is you hold on. oh we do hold the information. i would need to check with the erm er computer manager you know which fields are takeable, you know how, i don't know if you know computer re how computer records are stored but every piece of information like erm the admission figure, the title, the distributor will be a field and i presume if er any information like the time is in a separate field then you would be able to have a report by fields. if you understand that. mm. erm so therefore i would say in er theory er my understanding would be that yes we could know whatever you wanted to know about particular fields like every two o'clock over a period of a year or whatever. erm i couldn't er you'd, i'd need warning of that of course. well obviously if, if we take these away there might be questions. i mean it's exactly how you do it with television what, what changing patterns are there. wh what i mean to say is i couldn't in advance guess which field it was that you were going to want at any particular moment. oh no no no no no. do you see what i mean? because you would want one i hadn't got. erm but i, you know if you said i think you see, i think what colin's raising is a very interesting and important issue and i i naturally you know as a senior manager i'm concerned about it. that's what you know running any business or organisation means. you are concerned to fulfil every requirement or factor in relation to erm er you know the principles which that particular body or particular requirement lays down. either those of the market place or of those of funders or of your own cultural aims or equal opportunities or whatever it is. and so therefore at any one time we are working, i mean that's what we do, you know we are working at one particular area. it might be say at equal opportunities which we've worked at a very great deal over the last year. clearly you can't expect admissions of people with disabilities er for example, taking one aspect of that er cultural and er that policy, to be high if you know the building itself is physically inaccessible. so that has to be worked at and then you, you know, would begin to look at whether that has any effect on your admissions and so on. and, you know, along with marketing and so on we are, we're continually looking at all aspects of that. now my, my unders my er erm thought would be that in reviewing the management accounts in general and the admissions in general you are keeping a wether eye on that. and i you know should be and i hope am alerting you to areas where er you know we are falling short. or where we are concerned or putting in extra work and so on. erm the particular issue which colin raises is a very important one. erm and er it could be that we could look at that. i mean it would be interesting to do that. you know, er given enough time and preparation and if we define clearly what it is that we want to analyze, you know i can provide that information er in the form of a report or in a rawish state and we could discuss that. for example you know like erm is it worthwhile opening a cinema at four o'clock would be an interesting question. and at the end of the day quite considerable potential changes could arise from the results that you might deduce. for example, you know currently, you know our shift pattern with the projectionists for example , you know is generally when they're not on holiday that they're in at er ten o'clock and they work through till eleven. not the same people, but you know that's the shift pattern. erm and therefore of course there's maintenance and preparation and all that sort of thing. and at the end of the day you would be into relating what people do in their job descriptions to whether you were getting value for money from those members of staff. and you'd be into time and motion and so on which i'm sure semina you could erm appreciate and comment on as well. and yes it erm i mean and therefore we would be reviewing current practices which is that erm you know the film is in the building, the cinema is open, the staff are there and we therefore show a film at four o'clock because there's no extra charge for us doing so and we hope thereby to attract however many er patrons to see it. and of course we're offering a service of allowing people to choose to come at four rather than six and we are making ourselves accessible to single mothers who perhaps can't come out in the evening etcetera. so there's a whole range of things there which we're doing. and at the end of the day then, you have to weigh up whether or not you decide that even though, if you like in the strictest financial terms, it is not profitable to open the cinema and to employ staff doing that although presumably they'd have to be employed doing something else unless you changed their rota patterns nonetheless because of your the demands of funding bodies, your own cultural aims and equal opportunities policies, you've decided that you will do so even though it's going to be marginally a loss in financial terms. but of course that is a discussion which would be quite proper and er for us to have and for the board to take a view on and er for funders to comment on and so on and so forth. er and it could be done. but what i would say is that we should perhaps er er you know identify areas where we think we might erm where discussion would be fruitful and then we could marshall the information if we, if we wished to. i mean you know, whatever it is that you you you would want i could do er in theory. given enough time to prepare it. and therefore any trends or any queries er which emerge from you know whoever erm can be examined and erm discussed. the only, the only other thing i mean, the other thing which occurs in my mind and you know, as you know it isn't thought through and i want to look at what statistics are now available is i mean the question of increasing shortage of good product. mhm. which seems to me to impact on the same thing. if we're not gonna have such a good range of product, and we've already got some what might be dud slots mhm. er and is that gonna become an increasing factor as, as we continue down the shortage of product. i mean it just seems to me an area which i think i would like to have a bit more information on. i'm not saying, i'm not drawing any conclusions until i know but i'm saying i think it's an area that is perhaps worth investigation. mhm. and i would be interested just to know how many performances don't actually break even. and is there a regular pattern or is isn't there? you know is it completely variable? or are there certain slots, are there certain times, certain types of product. we did if you remember colin we did erm produce some figures about break evens er which i gave to you and yes. which are in the minutes. but of course to some degree you've got to decide what you mean by break even in the sense that er how do you actually i mean that take the subsidy into account or not. yeah. and how do you proportion costs and so on. and we yeah. i appreciate that. we came up with a number of figures. erm and clearly you know they are of some use. er and at the end of the day you have a figure which you then can offset against what you think your corporate aims and er your other commitments in policy terms. erm and i think that it is a very useful exercise to discover which things you know fall below that break even point and which things are therefore if you like internally subsidized or which we do for one reason or another. and you might well argue of course that if you are subsidizing films which have no cultural merit or whatever then why we are doing this and that, that would be a question to to ask. but erm i feel perhaps we should do it at least over a period, you know rather than oh yes. you know er er that's what i'm saying. if we, if we decide what it is we want to look at and there is a consensus on that and then you look at it over a period of time and see, and see what's revealed by it. and whether it varies or whether it's consistent. whether a particular pattern's in there. er but i mean basically at the end of the day, i mean you have to think about to what extent you can increase your sales. mhm. to what extent you can increase your subsidy. erm and sponsorship. and er to what extent your fixed costs are inevitably going to continue increasing. yes. and somewhere in there it may be that something's got to give perhaps. erm and i don't know whether that's the case either but i think all those factors are rolled in together in terms of future strategy. and er those are the terms i'm thinking. but i mean i'm just speculating here at the moment. yes. i, i mean i think, i agree with you and er clearly these are management concerns. i mean these are the things which you know are our, are our daily er exercising daily our minds and erm i mean all, all we go back to is acknowledges is when i first raised my question on that with all those things at the back of my mind, i wasn't finding that as we used to get it no. particularly helpful. and so no. we're obviously now in a position where we can do a great deal more in terms of analysis. mhm. which is i think where we finished up last time that when we've got the stuff on computer we can yes. reinvestigate. that's right. so we'll leave it at that that we erm the chief executive will be happy to receive your comments, reports, feelings. i'm sure he'd welcome phone calls if there are things that er yes i mean basically we need to first of all decide, i think this is what we're deciding in the first instance, which option for the provision of information you find the most helpful. that's the first question to be decided. we can't do anything beyond that at this stage cos we first of all need to have the information. so that's the first question for you to think about and reflect on. when we've reached that, we could then think what way forward there is with this er more efficient a provision of information for analyzing it. but i don't think we can really er get to that stage beyond this first one. so i'd be very grateful therefore if er you could put your minds to the options and erm we could discuss that at the next board meeting. can i, can i just say chairman, finally for point of clarification in case there's any doubt about it i'm not looking to turn it into the, into an absolutely like efficient business you know and everything succumbs to that. what i am certain about is that there is a long term future for this cinema and that we're aware yes. of what needs to be done to en ensure that while pursuing the cultural objectives. yes. yes. i agree entirely. i'm not looking for it to make, make a profit, no. be super efficient, it's just that there is a chance of keeping going without too yes. without having a crisis every other year or whatever. yes, this is exactly one of the reasons we had a crisis last last time was because erm we didn't know that the then director i'm sure didn't know what, what was happening. the information wasn't either wasn't available to him or was not understood by him and he wasn't able to interpret it for the board. and we didn't see the warning signs and then when we had this serious situation it er it it nearly it nearly swamped us. mm. do we, do we want to go all this in the minutes ? i'm sure you would er sensibly produce minutes which don't offend anyone. er may i also say, and i'm sure you didn't mean to imply because i would certainly like to think we were super efficient. well pleased i'd hate to think that that wasn't an aim of management. i think it yes well, let let's get that clear as well. i think you know that i think this cinema is well managed. yes but it was an aim which i'm sure i i would, alright alright point taken. it's a good aim. i mean i i support that aim. right well let's look at the the accounts then. the financial report. erm first quarter, april may and june have those. we haven't got any. has everybody got those? you've got them? erm has everyone got them? yes? has anyone got two? are they lurking in front of anyone? two different ones . one's ah. one's called tyneside cinema account budget ninety two. yeah that was last meeting. sorry, you've got the last does that, does that belong to the previous yes. the previous minutes. minutes, right. oh right, yeah. the one we're looking at now is april may and june. do you have those susie? no. you don't. no,. has everyone got them? good. now erm april was a good month. and may was a good month. june was much less . at the box office, this is. yeah. erm sorry, i must say given financial financial reports. i will finally change that to ticket sales. i'm sorry that this word box office keeps occurring. which is one of my pet hates. erm sh should, we we're entering a a slow period traditionally. july and august. yes, june nationally national figures of cinema attendances in june were down forty percent. forty percent. on june last year? on june last year. which is a lot. which is a lot. and er ours held up. well, they were down but were they down? yes, they were down by six thousand seven hundred and eighty six pounds. er i'm sorry, seven thousand five hundred and fifty five on budget but they were down. most certainly. and down on the previous year? the previous year by about er four and a half thousand. on twenty thousand twenty thousand last year er budgeted on twenty two this year, fourteen and a half. the weather the weather was very good wasn't it? the weather was superb, yes. i think you'll find all retailers and caterers was, were down. not as much as forty percent but er they were down, yes. you see the british cinema summer is different to the american cinema summer. as you know american cinema installed air conditioning in the fifties and that re erm late fifties, early sixties and that re revived the american cinema er because people don't go abroad so much in america. they tend to er summer in america and go to the cinema whether they're on holiday or not. but the air conditioning did revive the cinema industry and therefore the summer is geared to new released in america which is not the case erm in er er this is not the case in britain which is traditionally a very slow period erm for releases. and erm we therefore er experience with our particular audience mix, generally a low july, a very low august. that's usually our lowest figure. erm the overall picture as you can see in june is that we revised the budget to show at this moment if this trend continues a deficit of two thousand pounds. i you know how conservative i am with figures and er with advising you as to what may occur i'm myself relatively confident that erm we shall meet our ticket sales target by the year end and that there will be no as there as there's been in previous years since er the aforementioned not to be noted er crisis. er but er this is the position as it is now and i i've taken the conservative position as always. just a matter of information erm on on floating incomes? no, on on the revised budget do you just take them on strength or do you do something a bit more sophisticated? erm we're doing something a little bit more sophisticated. which is that we discuss it and see that it would be reasonable to do that. right. er but not much more sophisticated than that. but we don't just simply press a button. right. we all these figures are discussed and we take into account the previous three years. and we take into account what we know about product up coming which isn't always a lot. erm and so forth. a question i would ask is that given the product which you had in june and the fact that presumably you have to take what goes, presumably the fact that they don't send you the strongest stuff erm are you surprised that the figures were down in view of the quality of what you had, or are you surprised it might not have been worse? i think i'm rather surprised they might not have been worse. erm if we actually look erm and i don't know if we did introduce to all members bryony who is my assistant and who works very largely on the programme with me and on the educational and events side, and is acting minute secretary while judith is on maternity leave. but i think bryony if you er also comment, but the films that we had in june like rebecca's daughter erm and until the end of the world erm and erm some re-runs. they weren't particularly stunning were they? no, films like rebecca's daughter didn't have reviews. and cos they didn't have huge national publicity. they weren't very good films really. basically . yeah. yes. they had erm, what was it? comedy peter o'toole dressed as elizab elizabeth the first. i mean they you know. and it was a film which really was ill-conceived and quite frankly ridiculous. apart from my private idaho which er i thought that might have been a re-run then? yes. mm. er apart from that really there was nothing very strong at all. until the end of the world was dire. er and was three hours longer yes. well obviously the customers chairman are sensitive to what is actually being shown. they don't simply come through repetitive habit do they? i mean they well some do, thankfully. ah. well that's a different matter. that's a cult issue. but i'm very interested to learn that on monday when er the autobus didn't erm you know, do come along and er see if it made er what difference it made, no i'm being a bit facetious, but erm there are some people who come anyway. there are some people who obviously come at the weekend more to see whatever it is we're showing. but clearly the majority of our audience is rather discerning and er is making decisions based on erm a whole range of factors to do with the information they receive through marketing and publicity. right. ticket sales. erm any other points that er a board member would like to raise or the chief no no. not at all. the chief executive would like to draw to our attention? anything er alarming in alarming trends in here? i don't think so. no. is that lost next door? er it's upstairs. i'm afraid i can't identify it. mm? ? oh it's ju , yes. can i ask why the education income is, is . is that, is that a sort of er is that an accidental er do you do you get what comes in through it's the worst time of the year. most educational income comes between october and april. ah. so although the budget is two thousand that's what, a cumulative budget or a share of the annual budget? which, currently? er three thousand er three hundred is what er we had budgeted to make by this time. right. er this year we actually made three four seven but we're still thinking that we will make two thousand pounds. and in the income does hire refer to hire of this room? not only this room but the cinema itself. right. erm and again the key times for that is usually september to april. right. yes? thank you very much. erm your report. well if i may raise a number of issues under that report. i don't know when it is that you'd like to take this. whether this is an appropriate moment? yes, i think but since we've let's let's get that sorted. the erm financial er i just have a horrid thought oh that was sent out to you wasn't it? yes. the statement of financial procedure. good, sorry, just had a thought it wasn't. this is something we discussed and thrashed out last time? yeah. and should be adopted now unless there are things, further things you wish to discuss. or members who weren't here or but we did talk this through in some detail. we took advice from our funders and er we looked through this er on a previous occasion. it is meant both to set out extraordinary expenditure which was how it arose but at the same time john pointed out that it might be a good thing if we also had an indication of the routine procedures and so therefore they are now set out in one document and are for your er final approval. i read them and they seem to be er a a direct record of what we'd er agreed. there is actually one emendation which i put in er just to ex sort of er explicate still further. under emergency procedure i put in the words in the second line, after having made every reasonable effort to consult with the chief executive. really to protect members of the management team who might have made a decision. if you remember the screen was slashed by a phantom lunatic. well not a phantom lunatic but by a lunatic. well it wasn't, i mean this is an example, sorry. oh right. but if it were if it were to be slashed or erm you know and er on monday evening we would have to get a screen we would have to replace that screen immediately. if i were you know unaccountably in the south of france or elsewhere or wherever you know in dundee erm and not available. the south of france is more likely. ha! would that it were. would that it were. erm but i think that i, what i felt was that i should have the right to be consulted and that every reasonable effort should be made to consult me. because as indeed er has happened er sometimes the real emergency is not that of equipment. there is a tendency, i i hope not of er this management team but there is a tendency of some people who who might be employed in future to feel that solutions can be obtained by purchasing and i'm not always convinced that that is the case. sometimes there's an under underlying reason of staffing difficulties or disciplinary or whatever, which might mean that new equipment will not be the answer. well i there there was a a classic example of this during the refurbishments when the contractors had left the building unsecured over mm. over a weekend. and er the decision had to be taken to bring in erm security guards security guards. only. you were there as it happens. mm. you were available but you later on won't be. mm. mm. and i think that would have been the the classic situation where we would we've got a procedure now for dealing with it and i think this covers all and i unless somebody wants to further debate the matter i'll er i will propose that we adopt these the financial regulations for the er tyneside film theatre limited. could i have a seconder? thank you, susie. all in favour? great. could i ask a yes. complementary question? and it doesn't affect the procedures but four refers to pay cheques. and i i wonder whether we should infer from that whether all staff or a number of staff get a pay cheque mm. as distinct from salaries paid into true. their bank account or building society accounts. ah, yes. we don't do that. but some are paid in cash. er mm. pay cheques or slips? if they were slips they wouldn't i don't think i'd they would decide whether they want cheques which . i don't think that, i'd it's signing the stubs that is er yes. it's it's to do with signing of cheques. the chief executive in two is answerable these are monitored by the so that some staff are indeed paid in cash. that, those are the only two alternatives. either in cash weekly or by cheque monthly. there are no direct debits or into building societies or anything of that sort. because we, we have a large amount of cash which it suits us to get rid of rather than take it to the bank er to be added up and charged for cash handling. so erm i i, i mean i can understand that we have a a specific need to er address the member of who signs what cheques but i think the matter of cash is covered by two, the chief executive is answerable to a board for financial matters. these are monitored by the board's scrutiny of the monthly management accounts. i mean you must have a lot of cases whereby where, where you are actually perhaps er er a taxi needs to be paid for to take mm. somebody. well that's cash out. there must be lots of cases where you are actually paying the window cleaner cash in hand or something . i i assume, i mean obviously there are routine matters which are paid for and recorded erm in the normal way. is it, does that is that alright? still cover your point or not? not, not quite. the real question is why, why don't we pay staff er direct transfer into bank accounts? why, why we don't wish to. you you you you half explained anyway. you actually have the cash turning over we don't wish to because it is not financially sensible for an organization which is cash rich to take all the money to the bank. to pay the bank daily to do things with it and then to start adding to those costs which a bank charges by using all these sophisticated methods when we can in fact do what most staff want, which is to give them cash in a little brown envelope on a thursday. i mean i think it's, i mean i i have personally asked this question a number of times and pressed for everybody to be paid properly in inverted commas, i e monthly, but this is an assumption about a certain lifestyle and a certain way of budgeting which er i don't think we have necessarily the right or, you know it's not necessarily our oh it's got to be the choice of the er and most staff actually prefer cash weekly. there's only two members of staff who are paid monthly by cheque and i'm one of them. that, that's fine as, as long as cash handling to salaries does not give you an additional security or handling problem. i think you've covered that by indicating the nature of the cash handling for the whole organization. i mean i've learned something . mm. i don't think it does in that erm how often do you handle it? i, i really don't know. three times a week perhaps? twice a week? i'm not sure. no i mean our, our bank handling charge is is very significant. mm. yeah. i mean if you bank every day it costs you a fortune. mm. but i would have thought you could have got away with banking once a week. i don't think it's quite once a week cos the weekend which means you have quite a big build up on a monday which you want to get rid of. don't want in the building. well we only do it twice a week. i think it may be twice a week. i mean i i mean you did a big, you need a big safe. you know i'd, i'd need to check with frances precisely. and it varies. i don't think er i mean you know there are certain s we're covered to have certain sums in the safe by insurance and we don't exceed those and so on. i mean you know i could find out if you'd like to know. yeah isn't, you you're much more labour-intensive than we are aren't you? well i would think our takings are higher than the cinema. in general. no! and we get away with twice a week. but you possibly have security and so on? extra security? or you may use a firm even? well no. well the the money's collected by a firm and taken to the bank. yes. and that's another reason we only do it twice a week. yes. well we don't do that. we do it ourselves. we did look into securicor but it's far too expensive. erm right. the next thing er which again er is er a detail of something which is already approved and it is merely than in our conditions of service during our discussions with the city er personnel department we noted, or they noted as it had arisen that we indicated the route to erm sick pay over a certain period and before a certain period but not the detail of how you got there. and so we've merely spelt that out on the second page of our standard conditions of service. and erm er that is for your er for you to take note of and er to.. formally to approve if you would. you have these standard conditions of service of course? oh. already because they've been approved by the board. has everyone got one now? no? yes? one more. one more. these you have, and these have been approved. i'm sorry, it is getting rather hot in here. do we have the keys to that i think it would be wise. yes. if you wouldn't mind. well if you want to just ring and ask someone to bring them. there won't be anyone there. there won't be anyone to ring,. we are addressing which er we are looking at page erm hundred. er well it should be page two but in my er haste i may have i notice mine is in the wrong order. but anyway you want the heading sickness. and we're just looking at the route to in the previous er conditions of service we merely mentioned the time for which you weren't entitled to sick pay and the time after which you were entitled to full sick pay which we defined, we didn't define the route. i've now defined the route taking advice from the city personnel service. so you just need to look at that yes. those length of service stroke related sickness pay. agreed? right so these conditions of service then are those which apply to all current and future staff. and these conditions apply from the first of april of this year. all members of staff have standard conditions of service as set out here, with the exception of temporary staff or staff who are er on a short time contract or maternity leave cover who may have a short term er notice er erm for erm a period of notice. and with the other exception of the chief executive who according to his er conditions of appointment has a three months notice period. everyone else sorry this is the er security blind. everyone else has a standard period of notice. and everyone else's contracts are therefore according to these conditions of service. okay? thank you. yes. but if you, if you're in a draught jenny or john, say so. but it does help us to get some i'm not in a draught where i am i can assure you. get some air into the building. the other period erm the other thing i would like your advice on erm did you, you didn't note all this? oh i'll give you all that, it's alright. er the other thing i'd like your advice on is that the coffee room's franchise er is due for renewal in nineteen ninety three. and according to the erm agreement which i made with the franchisee in june eighty nine erm his rent is also due for review er this august. now erm i e now. however, the er holder came to me and said that they, he would like to invest a considerable sum in new equipment, refrigerators blah blah blah. and so therefore, as we did in our case, would like erm some indication o er of whether or not er he could and this was his suggestion er give up his current lease which runs out next year and take on a new lease with us for a period. erm and accepting that would mean er obviously an increase in rent and perhaps changes in that lease er in order that he would be able to er to invest that money. now this is clearly something which some of you have great erm knowledge and expertise in such as colin. and i'd be very grateful for your advice. for what it's worth my own advice would be that we i erm as you remember, increased the rental for the er coffee rooms from four thousand pounds when i er took over the post of chief executive and er to seven thousand five hundred in july eighty nine and we've increased that yearly to a sum of twenty one thousand one hundred and fifty pounds per annum er from the first of august nineteen ninety one. erm my advice to you would be that in the past, before the coffee rooms was run by this particular person firm we had very great difficulty with them and i'm sure john will bear me out on this. and in fact the coffee rooms not only were not profitable but i think at one time were even subsidized by the directors' own pocket which just how balmy some people can be. erm that was in sheila 's day. but it never was profitable. indeed was er er i think a thorn in the flesh, to say the least. these people have hit on a formula which seems to work. erm er in my opinion they are a very good tenant and a very good person to work with and they certainly are very cooperative with the cinema. erm i could of course and will of course erm take advice as to whether the rent we're now charging them is reasonable. we do have to bear in mind that our rent has increased er our own rent to morgan estates and so on. and this you know is acknowledged. but my, my view would be that i would er you know investigate this fully and er come forward with a recommendation, but that er my own er thought would be, and i i now take your thoughts, that we should not get ourselves erm launched into a very big, massive erm you know operation of advertising this franchise afresh and going through the whole procedure. erm particularly at this time. but that we should continue with this particular person. but i would say that we should obviously look at the financial aspect of the review erm dates, which might be yearly. we should look at the length or the term of the new franchise which should perhaps be limited to three or five years. er whichever could be negotiated. and we should look also i think perhaps at some quality factors er which might be written into the lease since there are some some things which i think we're all less than satisfied with er you know customer complaints and the way they're dealt with. the time it takes to be served and a number of things. and of course all that is a play-off against you know keeping that franchisee er involved and keeping them feeling that they can still make a profit. and that, you know, not tying them up with endless pettifogging regulations. but i think there are a number of things er which would need to be taken into account. what i would say overall sorry, if i may just add one further point is that the coffee rooms makes a profit and pays its bills very promptly to us. it is not necessarily the always i think that the type of operation which a certain sector of our audience would necessarily want. i e it doesn't always serve the food which they would like. particularly, you know it has to be said there is a particular age class background and so on and so forth. but that it does satisfy a need for a vast number of, of people who may be rather younger and poorer than er we who sit here. er and erm that is of course a large section of our audience also. so er i don't think we should attempt to shift the coffee rooms into you know a nice health food, vegetarian, upmarket restaurant which might suit us because it, it thereby wouldn't fulfil its function which, from our point of view, is to provide a service and i think basically they're doing the job that the public want cos they're successful. they're always busy. i mean yeah if you come yes. come in the middle of the day or whenever you know they'll be busy. it's amazing. well it is quite true that if you come to eat before you see a film you have to ask if they can do it in time. mhm. yeah, and sometimes they've said no. i, i've been here before and they've said ah sorry it's gonna take ages. i mean you know. i mean at least they're honest but er i think if you're happy with them but there are some minor points there's, it's going to be a new underlease is it? sorry? it's going to be a new underlease. they would give up this current one and we would ah well it gives you the chance to get, to increase the rent if you er but if you're happy with them as operators er you can boost your income for the year. er i wouldn't be as generous with them as our landlord was with us. no. certainly not. and if there are elements of the operation that you're not happy with er if, if there aren't any catering regulations in the underlease well you can introduce some. mm. mm. which will then gives you a chance to control their operation when you're not happy with it. so as long as you you're thinking that they're doing okay and meeting the market demand. er you could improve the terms. get er an increased rent earlier. get some regulations imposed on them. i think it's a good idea. i mean i think that my principle desire is that they pay their er they contribute to our income and pay their rent regularly and are able to do so. er together with, if you could tie those two together, providing a service to a section of our customers. they don't clearly provide a service to all our customers. erm and they never will. that would be difficult. they never will. no. yeah. erm but they do provide a regular and safe income. well, nobody ever does. yeah that's right. but there are particular areas like this, you having to wait a long time and if you come into the building to go and see a film and you've you've left an hour to, to have some food you, you really shouldn't be missing the film because yeah. i mean, i would imagine that they can pr , they can with your assistance, create something whereby they can say there will be a meal and it will be if you make that part of the lea the you can try without persecuting them er t t to a degree which makes it not worth their while being in the business. i mean yeah. but if they have a, if they have a some sort of fast food provision in the menu with a limited choice. as long as mm. and he could say right, you want a mea right well, stuffed baked potatoes. my view is that this has to be negotiated with them and i would be very loathe for us to start imposing erm yeah. i think what you've t what you've taken from us is the view yes. that there is a concern about the ability to eat here immediately prior to seeing . they're may not be time well one person raised that. yes. two well just, you know if they if they were sensitive to that sort of thing. i mean i'm i'm i know to ask yes. when i come in if i can have poached eggs on toast and see the film, you know. the trouble is er but strangers don't there is no way there is no way there is no way of ensuring that our no no. this requirement is ever met. yes. i know it so this is the problem. if we start laying down so many things. i agree with you. yeah. and i think the quality, and that is one of the quality of service, quality of er route of complaints and so on. i would like to see those things built in. but even though they guaranteed to provide every customer who had allowed three quarters of an hour er for a meal, you know, you would have to lay down in very great deal wouldn't you? you may have a poached egg but you not have a poached egg with rice. i'm not considering, no. i'm i, what i what i'm seeing what i'm seeing with this is the opportunity of raising particular issues yes. if we're going to enter into a new lease with them. yes. of course. by er failing even once to meet a reasonable demand for a for something to eat in a short period of time, then there's a knock on effect to our business. and i think that's something which we have a right to to raise with them. so erm erm they might not be aware that er there is, you know, that there could be customers who yes. who haven't been promptly served the building. yeah exactly. they might, they might not be a hundred percent sort of aware of these things. can i suggest that they probably simply do not know, they work in a particular way, a particular level. and i suspect that if we offered them counselling from cater good catering advice on how to maximise their market return they'll do it because i wouldn't hang about for a meal if i knew that they wouldn't give you a meal in fifteen minutes , i'd go and eat somewhere else. you er there's no shortage of fast food if you allow, if you allow an hour for a meal in the coffee rooms well that's that's that's good for a isn't it? you might just catch the film. yeah. okay, well er if the market, you know you're, live in a market world. if it gets a bad reputation, people won't come and they will suffer. i think the interesting thing is is the five card erm is, is the brag you play or the poker you play and how much to raise the ante. yes. i mean the point is he's doing alright isn't he? you as i say it's all gotta be subject to you negotiate with him yeah. but if he's not willing to pay a market rent. mm. well then you're gonna have to say farewell. mm. yes. i i don't they also have problems with the, with the er the drinks? you know, i mean that's a licence question. how many people have walked out because they they can't have a drink . well they can't. it's a licence but with, you know, people with their meal or or mm. someone who doesn't want a meal but just wants a drink but all the rest of the people are having a meal. well they can't. i've seen loads of er yes but they can't. and that yeah. that's the law. yeah. we can't ask them to change the law. they could apply for a bar licence of course. that's another issue. there is a bar licence attached to this building. club bar licence, alas. club bar licence. yeah. but it might not be a bad idea to go down that route to see if we can we can see if it can be exploit it at this stage because we have discussed, and i know this is getting off the the the the agen yes. agendum agendum but erm i think no but it's not about giving them too much advice. i think yes. what the fact is that the place is packed. they succeeded. the fact is that many majority of people know that it yes. takes a long time. see a lot of the people that come are students who've got, who have got time fact is that that sounds awful. but yeah they have got time available the point is i think that the prime thing to remember is that the the the the s the customers in the coffee rooms are not necessarily customers in the cinema. yeah. that is the fact of the matter. mm. and i'm afraid there is no way you can you, if you try and force the caf to be more a sort of caf that people who come to the cinema will patronize then it will not make a profit in my view. it never did. if you actually allow it to be a caf in your premises which hopefully will also satisfy some of our customers then apparently it will make a profit. but i'm very loathe to attempt to force it to be something other than that which it is. because that which it is is profitable. but i'm also very anxious that we receive a full percentage whack of those profits and as you can see i, over the years, i've been very assiduous in ensuring that we do move towards that position. that that's er a straight rent is it? i don't understand that term. well it's a straight rent. what what except in what i was going to suggest is that we should s seek to negotiate with them a turnover rent. you could. a base rent or turnover rent could try that. yes. you could try that. what i don't want to get so as they increase in sales yeah, of course. or as you increase the customer at the cinema which increases their sales, you take a share of it. that is okay when things are going well of course. ah we have a base rent. yeah. yes. which you get anyway. mm. whatever happens. it would be a way to get faster service wouldn't it. yes i mean those things are possible it encourages it encourages them to increase their business as well you see. yes. yeah. what happens if they were to say no though in a negotiating position and they just we'll, we'll go. you know we've actually got somewhere else and, and so on. i mean yes of course i know, i know about negotiation but but that, that but that's the whole thing i'm saying. er you, you want to keep them because you think they do alright and yeah. pay you on time and all the rest of it. yes. so what you do is you open negotiations with them on a new lease. yeah. and you see what improvements you can get. yeah. and if they're not prepared to pl play the game or pay the going rate well then you review it and think how far do i push them on this? yeah, yeah. and how far do i not accept what i think i might get in order to remain on good terms. yes. i d i don't want this to be minuted but i, i think erm we are aware of susan . is this a papal pronouncement? no. it is a family organization. it's a mafia, a mafia yes? and erm we are we we is that good or bad? yeah it's very good. i mean we may not necessarily be talking about the the the reporting procedures on turnover which would enable us to assess a rack rent in in in the oh i see. mm. mm. mm. ah well you've got a computer system now which is wiser than anybody here. or you have well i mean you know turnover, turnover rents can be run without a comp without a computerized till. you just insist you have access to the books at any time or you send your accountant in to check. i wondered if there was a everything has to have a till receipt. you can check the till rolls which have to be kept. i mean there's plenty of ways of doing it. yes. erm i was wondering if introducing that might make a yeah. be making them changing their way of operation which they might find unattractive for reasons yeah.that's right which yes. perhaps we can go into. as, as they are a family operation. you don't need to minute that. . anyway yes. well can i, can i, can we leave it perhaps that erm we, that the chief executive has received the er good advice of the board and will negotiate on the basis of the surrender of the yes. would you like me to report old lease. to whom? i mean, would you like me to do this or would you like me to report. i would prefer to a committee of people who have experience yes. er because you know, if we wait till the twenty eighth of october er that you know, won't suit their purpose which is that they would like to get on with this so they can invest in plant renewal. i, i would prefer well we could do to take advice, particularly from you colin and from anyone else. john? i don't know, or anyone who feels shall we do the f and g p route? right. er where we'd inter-coopt er colin on to the f and g p for that so you get the opportunity, thank you very much, you get the opportunity of reporting to us what, what you've done. so we can say yes. or or can you let me have a copy of the lease as soon as you can? yes. thank you. erm right so the we agree to delegate to the f and g p the of the existing lease and the taking on of a new lease underlease for the coffee room, tea room operators. thank you. erm. what would you like next to address? distribution report, that's about it really. what? distribution report? er yes. erm roger's very keen on this. erm oh yes . oh as i think i mentioned last time we have had a marketing er survey undertaken. particularly in relation to distribution and when publicity material, not of films. yes. no of our our marketing and publ print and so on. when that's settled you know through the various committees, well various. through the management team and erm when marketing had a chance to reflect on that i, i'll report back to you what our thoughts are. and indeed the the report of course is available if anyone would like to read it. it's a very good report, which was done by a graduate student from the university of northumbria on placement and er involved a lot of field work. and i think it's a very fine piece of work for which he received a first class mark incidentally. good. er the university of northumbria or newcastle is that newcastle brackets carlisle campus. right yes i am keen on that because i think er one of the keys to growth in our business is to attract more people and to attract people you must tell them that we're here and what we're doing. . i think that i think it's a a good first step. erm, equal ops? er nothing to report on that. er i i've already reported on the maternity leave cover provisions. is that a standing item on the agenda ? yes. it is. yes. erm so er oh actually sorry, if i could just add a little bit to that. no, no need to add anything further, thank you. that's all but i will nonetheless now you've now you've jogged my memory. we are putting together a systematized er body of documentation which foreign word. alright, an appalling word. we are putting together the documents and er accompanying er notes on recruitment selection procedure which will be followed in all cases in the cinema. it will be an ex expanded version of that which er we had further, we had earlier approved in our equal opportunities policy. but much more detailed and as a result not only of about twelve days' training which we've undertaken in that area with the management team, or various of them, but also of our experience over the last eighteen months in operating it. and i, we've been complimented on a number of occasions on that procedure erm by various public bodies. erm and we are now, if you like, putting it into a form which anyone can use irrespective of whether they have done the training. although of course we'll continue with training everyone who's likely to do it. but, as in the case say of a temporary administrator coming in he'd be able to or she would be able to take up this file and use it. and it covers, i hope, most eventualities. erm and i will bring it to you finally when it's in a form to be adopted as the procedure which this board will use erm either, you know, or delegate er the chief executive to use in the case of any appointments. thank you. and under any other business are we ? well just yes. erm er i'm equal ops proceeding with erm investigating the er educational dimension of the cinema, it's funding and staffing. erm we used at one time as you remember to have a full time education officer and er for a number of reasons er that er is no longer the case. we certainly have not ceased erm to undertake educational work and erm i do from time to time er do a number of reports on that work for er our funding bodies and er recently i've done a report requested by northern arts, for the arts council i believe. erm a cultural diversity report which lists for example the events or and film erm which relate to erm that aspect of our policy. erm courses, events, day schools, special screenings programmes er educational marketing back up and so forth are always, are a central and crucial part of our work. but erm it is my design at the earliest opportunity to erm extend er that work through more specific and increased provision er with er current er staffing erm levels erm borne in mind. i'm at the moment negotiating with a, a previous sponsor an s k bearings europe limited who have a plant at peterlee who are very interested in looking at erm supporting our educational provision. and there will be opportunities to apply for support from the british film institute and elsewhere erm in order that we can expand er what we're doing in that area and i, i just wanted to let the board know about that and to say that erm er this is the route that i'm currently taking and erm i will be reporting to them when there are specific developments and that i hope that you approve of er me attempting to expand our provision in this area. good. thank you. any questions? any other business? could i just remind members of the board of the next two meetings which are at the bottom of the er a a agenda and were given to you previously of course. you should have them in your diaries but as we have such a full complement this evening, can i just draw those attention er to your attention. twenty eighth of october and the annual general meeting on the second of december. i would also actually, briefly under any other business you have the days of the the the dates of the film festival? yes. the opening gala on the third of october, saturday. and the closing gala on the eighteenth of october, sunday. can i also draw your attention to another date which is the thursday the seventeenth of september which is the regional press launch for the fifteenth international tyneside film festival. some of you i know are working but some now roger are people of leisure and will therefore i hope er be able to find more space in their diaries to quaff the glass of er cheap wine and er raise it indeed. beer. of expensive beer, and to raise it in our er support. where's that held? that is here, at this cinema and er usually consists of a film show and erm er presentation and then of a buffet lunch. and we really are very pleased to see you th at that erm thursday the seventeenth of september. er it will be at ten. ten till two or something like that. it's also very good if board members can attend to er not merely to support the staff er and to celebrate the event but also, if necessary, to talk to the press or to er engage er with guests and so on and so forth. er it would be much appreciated if you were able to attend. any other other business? what a brave person you are to let a board of trustees loose on the press. well we we we'll have an army of people to stand by you and guide you and nudge you should you say anything. notwithstanding there being thirteen people round the table i do not propose to wash any feet and i call the meeting to a close. where do you get them roger? eighteenth. sunday the eighteenth of october. thank you very much for your kind attention ladies and gentlemen. it's er, courtesy, common courtesy. yes, and not going out to find your own knowledge really. you reach a point where you're not certain, then be big enough to say, i don't know, but i can phone our man who does. absolutely, absolutely no problem. right, let's get can you park at the back? carol, or not? n , er, no, probably no, because we've just, we've just got, we've got three spots, which are ta , are taken most of the week you see, so it's just a bit yes. it's only a very short walk down, if you walk through the shops you don't have to go all the way down, you can actually come, just walk past that shop and go down the middle, and you come out through the car park . are we ready? smokers? i've never been on tour, but i've been to the visitor's centre, and yes. erm, on page eleven, there's a chart where because you can all get these things like guy fawkes for, but also transcripts for. welcome to the last session of the day. yes, er, and we're looking at living assurance. yes can i explain all those booklets that i've put out on the table? first of all, there's two booklets here, one's a covermaster and one's for living assurance, which has got your questions answered at the bottom. it's very good for revision, because it's the type of thing your clients are going to be asking you, and it's the type of thing we're going to be asking you tomorrow. so it's a nice way of revising tonight. it's similar to c v t, you really haven't got any notes technically today, so it, it's nice, erm, booklet to use. there's also the living assurance one the same with questions answered. i've also given you a living assurance rate book, because we'll be looking at both the rate books in a minute. and the living assurance, the guide to er, the illnesses that are covered. the critical illness, just a very brief guide there. i think we'll need a box. and a pen, one of those each. one of those each, and finally erm, a circular put out by abbey entitled women at risk, which we'll be talking about. yes right, so yo , you watched er, dr. marius bernard, erm, the south african, what did you think about the message that came across in the film? what did you think about critical illness assurance? the importance of insurance. it's a very powerful message isn't it? i mean think er, life assurance erm, obviously it's the to have fails, but if somebody is eligible for, and can afford living assurance, it's got to be a brilliant product. i would think there must be a large part of people out there that could benefit from their estates isn't there? i'm, i'm never you're absolutely right, philip. o k sue? can you carry on your domestic discussion tonight, yes? erm, yes, you're absolutely right. let me tell you a little bit about the history. er, when we introduced covermaster, erm, thirteen years ago or so now, it was a unique plan. it was actually plagiarised by sixteen other life companies within the first six months. it was copied. one company still calls their whole of life protection plan mastercover,, that's an idea of how much they copied it erm, but of course, very quickly things moved on. other contracts were available. er,b , but we were the first company, back in, i think 1987, to bring out living insurance. it was the first company to actually insure against critical illnesses. it had been done before of course. south africa in the mid-eighties, it was er, common in the states. but we're the first major company in britain, so our is second to none, our experience with the contract is second to none. it's very, very powerful. you need living assurance because you're not going to die, you need living assurance because you're not going to die. when you look at er, the critical illnesses that are covered, heart attacks, cancer, stroke, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. i mean is there anybody here, who honestly can't think of anybody who they know, i mean, perhaps if i try and rephrase that, is there anybody here who cannot think of somebody who's suffered an illness that fits into that critical illness er, category. i mean we must all know somebody who's had a heart attack, a stroke, cancer etcetera, etcetera. so we, we understand the implications, and to the money to actually put your life to right, is an absolutely wonderful contract. i said we've got er, the best claims experience, i've given you the one pamphlet, women at risk, which points out, women used to say, oh, a stroke it won't happen to me, cancer it won't happen to me. but that is quite useful to show what we've already paid out to women, we, we've got, three over there. have you got that one somewhere? yes, have you already got those? no there erm, somewhere along the line, right. i'll, i'll get you some in a minute, er, i'll carry on if er, if er, you don't mind i've got, oh here we are, i fo , i hadn't given them out sorry. thank you. so that's very useful to show you how women have been affected but this is on our claims experience. erm, if you turn over the page it says seventy eight percent of female claims have been on the diagnosis of cancer, and it gives you a breakdown of the condition and the age when diagnosed. all very powerful. a pamphlet that is equally powerful is one called abbey's number one for claims experience, but unfortunately we don't have any other copies at the moment, so i will leave one on the side so you can look at it. but do ask when you get back to the branch, because it samples claims that abbey has, have had, erm, it reiterates the statistics that you've just heard, the likelihood of somebody suffering with cancer, heart attacks, strokes etcetera, it er, gives you the ages er, if you choose, write in statistics, the one you've been listening to. current age, twenty five, the likelihood of somebody having a heart attack or developing cancer before sixty five, heart attack one in ten males, one in thirty nine females, cancer one in ten males, one in ten females. it's, it's horrendous those statistics when you think about it. if we can help people in those circumstances it's got to be a brilliant product. what, what was that leaflet called please? it's abbey number one, abbey, abbey life is number one for claims, because we were the first company er, if i put it over there now, it will stop me collecting it and taking in out. they are available as i say, but at the moment our's are being updated. so it's an absolutely brilliant product. now,, if we consider ordinary life assurance, somebody first said to me that er, maybe the best erm, sales manager, or sales promoter or publicist or, or whatever, was the person who actually had the idea of calling death insurance, life insurance, yes? how could you fancy ringing up your potential clients, and say, hello, it's carol, i'm calling from abbey death. it doesn't sound too good does it? but that's what it is isn't it? ordinary life assurance really means death insurance. what happens if, let's have a look, and compare it with critical illness. on death, the premiums cease, the sum assured is paid on the living assurance or the covermaster plan, living expense is reduced, the widow could work or remarry, a potential answers. critical illness, you've got carry on paying the premiums, with no lump sum paid on living assur , er, on life assurance, the living expenses are likely to increase, because you may have er, somebody who's disabled, paralysed or whatever, there's no chance of the widow returning to work because she's looking after person who's er, ill, and obviously she can't remarry because she's not widowed at this point. so if you compare critical illness and death with what happens at the time, and i've got to ask you this. what carries you away? well on death, obviously a car first carries you away, if you're ill it's an ambulance. and one simple statement, which do you see the most of when you're travelling around? how many hearses, how many ambulances do you see? ambulances. yes, how many they take them away at night in telford, so you only see them so it's a brilliant product and there's got to be a need for it. you don't have to die. this year, almost a quarter of million people were known to have cancer. a hundred thousand will still be alive five years later. a lump sum, we won't ask for it back, and maybe it's been useful for them to adapt their lives in the meantime. brilliant concept. what i want to do though is, is go through the plan, highlighting the differences. it was based on the covermaster plan with added extras. so i don't want to go through all the things that are the same, i want to highlight the differences, and maybe it'll help you in your mind to distinguish between the two products as regards examination and the questionnaire tomorrow. first of all with living assurance it's a whole of life plan that pays on, well we know it pays out on death, and we know it pays out on serious illness, but after that, the pay-out is obviously vast compared with covermaster. permanent disability, major organ transplant, paralysis, multiple sclerosis, blindness, terminal illness, and loss of limbs. all of which we have in this brochure defined for us. now one of the areas we can get involved in when we're talking to our clients is well what do they mean by cancer? does it count as all cancer, what's a definition of a heart attack. this is quite useful for you to refer to, this booklet, but do please tell your clients you're not a doctor, it's very much up to the client's doctor and our medical underwriters, as to whether we pay out or not. this is just a guide, but a very useful guide. er, for example, we're talking about a heart attack damage to heart muscle, we're talking about strokes where there's a loss fl ,bl , sorry, the flow of blood to the brain, erm, we're talking about cancer, we're talking about an abnormal growth of cells, but not all cancers are covered, a skin cancer which isn't life threatening, isn't covered, erm, as a result of perhaps too much sunbathing etcetera, whereas a melanoma, a cancer that comes into er, a great lump on the skin which can be life-threatening, obviously is. so you have to sort of look carefully. the definitions are here, erm, loss of limbs, yes? paralysis, when a limb is paralysed there is complete loss of movement and feeling, if you're talking about paralysis, loss of limbs, we're talking about the severance, would you believe, of any two limbs. would you tell people if it was from above erm, the elbow or above the knee? and also it would . and also? erm, actually there was a mix-up with that yesterday, we were told one limb, one or more limbs two two limbs, two two limbs, two limbs, for loss of limb, yes, yes. yes so what i'm saying to you is if you like to refer to this, this will give you the clear definition of what, what's covered in each case. who can have this plan? well, the key point there is there's no joint life, last claim. you can write it own life, joint life first claim, or life of another, but you can't l , write it joint life, last claim. why not, david? well erm,well probably because it's not going to benefit the person. absolutely, does it make sense for, for husband and wife over there to wait for the second one to have a heart attack, or the second one to have a cancer before it pays out, come on it really doesn't make sense does it? what was that gerald? i said, come on have a heart attack. come and have a heart attack so it doesn't make sense, and obviously it isn't er, written joint life, last claim. sorry, can i just ask a question there? certainly. in the question of no joint life, last claim, mhm right,i've forgotten what i was going to ask now, no it's alright, i was thinking about the circumstances, i was thinking about er, er, a dependent left behind you,sorry. yes, you, you've sorted it in your own mind? yes, yes. good, minimum premiums are the same, twenty pounds and two hundred, but do remember that existing clients, could have a reduced minimum premium of sixteen pounds or a hundred and sixty. what do we mean by an existing client, shirley? a client that's already got some insurance. absolutely, and they can actually retain that policy with you that evening. it doesn't have to be one that's issued. so if you start thinking about our client that we've previously erm, who we identified wanted fifty seven thousand pounds worth of life cover, i believe. maybe the solution would be to put some of that in living assurance, and some of it in covermaster. whatever, if we're writing two policies, he can be classed as an existing client, so we could have a reduced minimum. however, do we talk minimum premiums to our clients. no if you tell somebody you can it for as little as sixteen pounds per month, guess what, that what they'll have. if you tell them that to get exactly what they need it's going to cost them thirty pounds a month, and isn't it a brilliant contract, they'll probably have that. o k, let's move on to maximum benefit. what's the maximum benefit on a covermaster plan? five hundred thousand pounds. five million five million, or if, five million, we might do a little bit of reinsuring on that one, don't quote me. erm, the maximum benefit on living assurance is the figure that janet come up with just, half a million, five hundred thousand. that's actually on all critical illness cover plans, because if they've got a living assurance, or they've got some other plan that's got critical illness benefit, it's the total maximum that abbey will insure them for, for critical illness, for heart attacks, stroke etcetera. and includes keyman cover. it includes keyman cover. this is an interesting statement. if somebody has er, life cover, and living insurance is over a hundred thousand, they will be subject to the need being established. whatever does that mean? they've got to prove that they actually need that much cover. right, so how are they going to prove it? well by showing that their dependents will need that sort of income to come in. income, we're looking at income. we're looking at financial underwriting. anything above a hundred thousand, and we're looking at financial underwriting, we're looking at basically four times salary. so if we've got somebody earning nine thousand, they're going to want to know why they're insuring themselves for a hundred thousand on living insurance benefit. o k, so financial underwriting, is on a hundred thousand and above, you look at four times salary. erm,right, erm, we get this thorny question now about how to establish how much somebody needs for living assurance. if we just go back to the plan in the future, erm, and we move down to this section here, let's look at the questions we're asking. if you were to become critically ill or disabled, would you like some or all of your life assurance capital sum to be paid to you immediately, if so, how much? now that's a difficult question to ask people, yes? how much would you like in the event of a heart attack or a stroke, it's very difficult for them to decide. erm, what type of things do you think would actually affect that decision? size of the mortgage. size of the mortgage, that could well be the first point of call isn't it? which most of us will have a mortgage protected against death, i e, the sum assured is released to repay the loan, what happens if we get a critical illness, heart attack, stroke, etcetera, and can't work. you're still going to have problems repaying your mortgage. so ideally, the size of the mortgage is a good starting point. what other things do you think we could use to determine how much? erm, if they'll need special care. yes, but lo , but then we've so , we've got to pre-judge a little bit then, as to what illness they're going to have, and that gets a bit difficult. but you're right, we're, we're taking into account extra costs. age and , sorry talk about that's o k, it's about the children er, carry on, you go then if the children are er, privately educated, and it's high, high expenses that you would want to carry on with. it might well be something that is very important to you to maintain, even if you can't carry on working through illness. absolutely right. age, because you might be considering well, er, if something happens dramatically, at say fifty, fifty two, or something like that, you might just go and retire, so you would be set up in that respect. so how would you determine how much you need? how much the sum assured would be erm , well by virtue i suppose really, of your operating need, if you like, your, your yearly operating expenses. yes, you're, you're approaching it from er, a similar method to sue over there, you're saying how much would i need to, to survive and you're talking small businessmen really, aren't you? in that effect, yes, yes? sort of, yes. you could be looking at a minimum of one, two, three years' salary, because you might be thinking well at least that'll give me a chance to get on, to get back on my feet. i mean it's a fact isn't it, that there are a lot of people, the first heart attack is just a, a danger signal, you know, beware, take things easy, look after yourself, you've been putting your body under too much stress. but what happens if you're not financially secure, is that you're off work with a heart attack, you're rushing back to work because you need your income. you're putting your body under more stress. so you have another heart attack. yes, it actually gives you time to recover. it could be length of time your children have got in, in further education. if they're already in college, you might could well be because you're looking at making sure that they, they fulfil what is a dream for you and for them. it's a similar point to sue, was making. absolutely. so it, it could be just debts. can i just ask a question. it's just slightly off er, the track at the moment, if you were writing a living assurance plan for someone, and they'd already got a covermaster plan, mhm, right or, or other benefits that would actually kick in at a certain point, er, of death, i mean obviously this would actually help at erm, diagnosis, and you're writing into this, sort of to cover all of the things that we're talking about, and they get that, and then they continue to live, the rest of your plans are all then thrown out aren't they, because you've got all those things that you've put into place for death, sorted out in the years before . right, well, well, actually yes, what, what you look at, is, is what's important to you and you put a cash value on it, and it might be the mortgage, it might be education, it might be giving yourself a couple of years' salary and paying debts or whatever, er, and the security of knowing that o k, if i die, i'm not leaving a problem for my family, but at the same time if i'm in a situation where i get a serious illness and i can't bring in an income, i'm securing my, my, my future in that respect. so of course, after that, your uninsured, which is absolutely true, but at the same time, erm, you're really just bringing forward the pay-out when it's needed most. it's, it's a brilliant contract for single people. you can't, people, single people without dependents are really not very interested in life assurance, because on their death they're dead, you know, as long as they don't leave any debts they're not too bothered. but suddenly they can't be independent if they have er, er, a, an illness, a problem. suddenly this means a lot to them. yes? critical illness cover, that's great. excuse me a minute. sorry to interrupt, i've come to collect the packet. oh right, it's the bag, sorry there isn't one tonight. see you then thanks for coming then, yes, bye. that's good, i forgot the post. erm, where was i? what was i talking about? single people. single people, brilliant isn't it? er, there must be a worry in a lot of people, single people's minds what happens to me when i get older and in ill-health, how will i cope? well if they can afford to buy in help and to sort their life out, you've suddenly got a product that they really want to buy. i mean this, this product, if people have got the health to buy it, because we're obviously not going to take on people that are in poor health, they can afford it, because obviously as they get older, the risk is greater and it becomes more expensive, it sells itself, it really does, it's a brilliant product. presumably you can it can cost to an existing life policy absolutely, yes. so that even if you've these benefits, that other life cover would then go on to absolutely , yes, because an ordinary life policy won't pay out, so if you've got a combination of covermaster and living assurance, you've got your life policy to pay out on death, and your living assurance to pay out on critical illness. and if it's a sudden death, well, they'll both pay out anyway. erm, to make it more affordable, you could reduce the life cover, by the amount of life cover on the living master. yes, yes you could. you'll find what you're doing er, and in a way, it's a comfort to you, that you take, you get all this information, and you take it away, and very often there's not one clear answer. you need to think about the person's circumstances, and that's where it's great, that you can come back and sit down with your manager, and he's going to say to you well what do you think. and he's either going to say well that's great, that's exactly what i would suggest, or have you considered this, have you considered that, which is a great security when you're starting. er, when you're starting out and you're not sure of all, of all the options. there is a suggested minimum, but if, if, if it's right for the person and they can afford it, that a minimum of forty thousand pounds is, is, is er, er, an industry suggested figure of a minimum. but that's as i say, after looking at mortgage, salaries, etcetera. waiver of premiums, exactly the same, not exactly the same, sorry, very similar to er, as with covermaster, it's automatically built into the first life assured, it's payable until you return to work, reach the age of sixty, or pay-out of a claim. i mean, to die is not absolutely correct there is it, because i mean you could actually have a pay-out on critical illness, which happens earlier. but very similar to covermaster. built into the first life assured. does that mean the second life assured can't have it? presumably no. no, it means they can have it as an option. why's it built into the first life assured? it's likely the first life would be the man. the first life, well it doesn't have to be the man, but if, if you write the application so it's the breadwinner yes, the breadwinner, the main breadwinner, you're absolutely right. we're talking here of protection, of they can't have waiver of premium because of ill-health, they're not going to be able to have living assurance, so it, it's not an option really for them to have one without the other, because it's an automatic protection that, that really should be the basis of somebody's package of their health commitment to have it. so it's automatically built in to the first life assured, but it is an option for the second if they want it. that's waiver of premium. again, just to remind you of waiver of premium, this is exactly the same as the covermaster so you really won't need to cover, copy this, it's charged as we established earlier, as according to your client's age and sex i e how old they are and what gender they are, you can see how the percentage of the premium is established. a joint life charge will calculated as the sum of the individual charges, we looked at that earlier, the maximum age at which waiver of premium can be added to a new policy is fifty five, next birthday. and can i tell you, that if we'd just done covermaster, somebody could have picked up a point there. er, maximum age on new policy somebody new can have waiver of premium who's fifty five next birthday. so that's, that should all be very familiar to you. h i v exclusion. that's an interesting one. we've got somebody who's got a living assurance policy with us, it's going to pay out er, on diagnosis of any of those serious illnesses, and then they contract h i v, which if they had originally, we obviously wouldn't give it to them, but they contract it after the policy is enforced. do you think that we're actually going to pay out the sum assured? yes yes mm, gerald, ilias, not sure, could do, maybe, yes? erm, well, we will pay out except under current disability. so we will pay out eventually, but we will not pay out under the permanent disability clause. er, h i v, the aids virus is a, a debilitating disease, we won't pay out initially because as soon as on diagnosis you could basically say they are, er, they've got a debilitating disease, but we will pay out as soon as the illness actually affects some other part of the body er, and moves in to another disease. because you don't actually die of h i v do you? you die of something else? no, no what you get from it. yes, what you get from it. so we will pay out, er, any of the other serious illnesses, paralysis, major organ transplant, etcetera, death, but not on permanent disability. that's the only exclusion. it's not just because this illness is self- , it's self-inflicted er, cause, er, you've obviously picked this up from a variety of other er, i'd say, sources, but you also pick it up in you know, blood transfusions situation. true, yes. er, once the policy's enforced, we don't look at how somebody's contracted the illness. all we will say is you have a policy with us, you now have h i v, we will pay out eventually, because you, you're going to die, you'll probably die as they are then, or one of these other illnesses will be diagnosed, we just won't pay out on permanent disability. how much of a check do they actually go into if somebody makes a claim on that? in what le ? well to check all the facts basically, because something like h i v, if, if you're not in a category that's obviously erm, likely to catch it, you know, how would they really know that you've got it or not? the company you mean? the, the well sometimes the people don't know, but how the company clarifies he had it, knowledge of things before your client contracted it? well, well there's two things really. the people, if they don't know about it, they can't erm, tell us about it basically. erm, if they start to have an illness and it develops we'll obviously be talking to their doctor, i mean if it's apparent that they're blind on the form, well then, obviously we would looking the amount we paid, or, or, erm, basically come to some agreement on that. if it was obvious that there'd been a false declaration. if on the other hand if they got it genuinely after the policy was enforced, that's the risk that we take. that's really why the policy is there, isn't it? er, the risks that peo , they will incur later on. erm, just on that h i v thing there, is that, isn't it a bit confusing isn't it, in that we don't actually pay out on h i v full stop, on aids full stop, it is, it's really the other, the other things. they're going to happen aren't they, and h i v is the cause of it, but not, it doesn't cause the death of some oth , you, people don't die of h i v no the, the, the body's immune system gets something further, some of the others no, it's alright, i was looking in here, because i mean, it, i er, you know, i saw in the er, when i looked in the manual it said it didn't pay out on h i v, so it. yes it is confusing. it is confusing, perhaps it doesn't pay out on immediate diagnosis, only when one of the other illnesses takes over yes, and in which case, they've not paid out on the h i v, it's it's later on. it's as a result of and if they are going to pay out full stop. yes it's just prolonging it a little bit. sorry, just one other point on w o p there, i may have got it wrong, did you say earlier on that er, that if you get h i v, so the w o p benefit isn't payable, what about the al , did we say the allocation of w o p will still continue? yes, you don't, er, once it's established it's not changed at all throughout the plan, so if you, if you get h i v, and you can't have w o p, it's just tough i'm afraid. but on the other hand if you, if get serious illness and, and w o p benefit comes into effect, you've got a load of benefit from it so it's swings and roundabouts, on that then. ah, so you can still get the w o p benefits from, it's the same as the thing earlier on? it doesn't mean that the w o p is cancelled all together, when if you've got h i v, you, you don't get waiver of premiums full stop. on anything, even if you, three weeks after you get run over, and no, no you don't get it at all. that's a bit unfair isn't it? so if somebody gets h i, yes, because gets, takes out a policy at twenty five, gets diagnosed h i v at thirty, and they're still living, they haven't actually got full blown aids, and they can live for a hell of a long time afterwards, they're paying their w o p premium for a long, long time. you could have somebody on twenty five, who when they're twenty six er, contracting a debilitating disease, never goes back to work, and we pay their premiums until they die at sixty. it's the swings and roundabout argument isn't it? yes, o k. yes, it's a bit difficult really. some people win, and some people are losers argue with you, and then we get the answers on what to tell the customers erm, what happens if somebody makes a partial or full recovery? do we ask for their money back? no no we don't. it's er, our risk and the client's good fortune. and of course, you could say that, that could be happening more and more with the advances in medical science. people have been diagnosed with cancer etcetera, erm, in fact at the convention yesterday, they had some clients on the stage, one lady had been diagnosed with breast cancer, she got a pay-out from living assurance, five years later she's been cleared, and, and she's thrilled to bits about it. and they also had roy castle up on the stage would she have continued a different level of cover? sorry? would she have continued a different level of cover, she probably wouldn't have got them of insurance cover after that? she probably wouldn't have got any cover after that, she probably would have been uninsurable. yes. what's not available on living assurance. well we know that there's no joint life, last claim, but actually you can't take a partial surrender. you take some of the money out of the living assurance plan. why do you think that is? you can't take some of the money out of the plan? why? it's not a savings plan. well it's not a savings plan, but in covermaster, you can take some of the money if, if you need to, if, we'll tell you that the life cover might be, er, at risk, but you can't do that at all in living assurance. you either surrender it and take the whole cash, or keep it running, you can't take some of the money. it, it's really because as somebody gets older the risk gets very, very great, and it needs all the money that's built up in the early years to sustain the risk, the charges for the risk later on, in the later years. you do need all your money to offset that, so that we can charge you what we call a level premium throughout the period. there isn't really er, anticipating much spare cash. the benefit can't be reduced then to meet the fund in the way that er, well, i've got to be honest, if you actually ask and negotiate with the company, it can offer reduced benefits and reduced premiums to the client's circumstances, but it's not generally advertised. no. additional insurability option, you know the one for twenty five thousand on birth and marriage. it's not available on living assurance. it's not available. you can't offer people er, that. however, they can have the index linked insurability, they can increase it in line with the retail price index without further medical evidence. this is actually brilliant. it's good on covermaster, but if you think you can keep your living assurance in line with inflation even when you're likely to be coming into poor health, it is a brilliant concept. right, so those are the unavailable features. just one more thing that may have been mentioned yesterday when jess was going through the legal and underwriting session, this applies to both covermaster and living assurance. it actually can be a selling pitch. between the commencement date of the application and acceptance by abbey life of the risk, the life assured will be covered for death as a result of an accident, the lower of the sum assured or fifty thousand pounds. that's before we've even accepted them. so you're actually saying, you go to somebody's house, and you take an application, in the processing period, they die in an accident, we will pay out, whether we were going to accept them or not, we will pay out, but it's only on accident. the age of the older life, as long as they don't exceed sixty five next birthday, and they're not engaged in any occupation or pursuit that could be considered hazardous. so it's just an extra, erm, benefit that's on, on for most of our policies one way or another, still covered between formal acceptance. shirley? does that mean even before they pay their first premium? well it could technically, it depends how you set it up. er, you can set up these plans to start with a direct debit, which means it probably takes fourteen days to get that sorted with the bank, they'll allow fourteen days. i am still firmly of the belief that i like to walk out of the client's house with a cheque, because that's a commitment, and then the next premium comes out of the direct debit. so even if the associate has, has er, obtained the cheque but hasn't managed to get it in the next day, and he dies in an accident. we would pay out. we'd take the cheque as well though. erm, we, you'll actually find companies er, are very good in these circumstances. when i was working edgbaston, one of my colleagues went to see er, a couple er, one night. came into work the next morning. erm, the phone call rang, and it was the, the wife saying that her husband had died in his sleep that night. now when abbey looked at the policy, because he'd got the covermaster policy, the cheque and everything, there was nothing there to indicate that there was a problem. there was no medical problem highlighted that he knew about that he should have disclosed on the form. it was just basically, one of those things, and abbey paid out, because they said we would have done it, we would have accepted him on this anyway. now you can't tell your clients this will happen, but abbey will do, obviously like, like any life assurance company there is goodwill in that. but there is goodwill, we should make more of that shouldn't we, absolutely, but they don't, but they don't do they, i mean, bad news everybody wants to know about, but, but not good news. o k, so, that's really all i've got to say about living assurance, of all the, it's just got to be, a brilliant contract, and if you can afford it, you need it yourself. and if you can afford it, you need to sell it to all your clients, because it is absolutely brilliant. any questions yourselves? it's gone quiet. right, let's move on to the last session, where we're going to be looking at the rate books. working out the cost of these premiums, and we'll start with the covermaster, and we'll use your workbooks. so if you can find an example in your workbook, and you can find your covermaster rate book, and you'll also need a calculator. ah, yes, i think it was, because i had it after you, didn't i, john? thanks page fourteen i think in the workbook. indeed we'll have a look through how to work those out just br , just briefly. there's a lot of erm, conflicting ideas about using abbey's rate book and, and you might look very confusing in itself, but actually it's not half so bad as it seems. what are we doing? there are certain associates, who're not going to use a rate book, there's associates who er, because you're doing a two appointment sale, will always have time to come back to the office and get a computer quote and go back with the right answer. there's other associates who like to know beforehand roughly how much they can provide for people by way of life cover and living assurance, so that they can give the people some idea, or maybe want to sit in front of them and use the rate book to give them some idea. until you're in a situation where you've got your own lap-top computer, and you can tell them instantly. now you don't have to rely on this, because you can ring through to head office in the evening, or you can ring through your branch while that's open, and get a computer quote over the phone, but actually find it quite useful if somebody asks me to be able to give them an idea of how much it's going to cost them. and if it's a few pence out, they're not going to worry about it, particularly if i tell them, i, i added a bit on so that i'm telling them less. now, if we look at the first example, we've got a single male client, aged thirty four next birthday. if you look at your rate book, you'll see that the pages are determined by the ages of the clients and whether you use the front of the book or the back of the back of the book, are determined by whether he's a smoker or a non-smoker. now this client is a non-smoker and he's thirty four next birthday, so we're using the front of the book. but we haven't got any page numbers in these new rate books, yes,no no, so we should be age thirty four, and it should have non-smoker at the top, so it's right at the front, the commonest mistake is to look up smokers in non-smokers, and non-smokers in smokers. yes? non-smoker that's right. everybody on the right page? now before you go racing ahead there's a couple of things that i need to tell you, so can i show you how to do the first one, and then you can race on with it. erm, if you look at this you can see it's set out first of all in escalating premiums and level premiums, o k, that's straightforward enough. you can see that the page is entitled covermaster for ten thousand pounds sum assured, so basically whatever figures are quoted underneath are for every ten thousand pounds of life cover available to your client, so it you want forty thousand you multiply by four etcetera. however, that isn't the end of the sum because you do have to add a policy fee, and we're not talking expense charge here, of one pound nineteen, we are talking a number which has been devised so that you get right answer from the rate book. that is all, it's got nothing to do with expenses or anything else. it's like some algebraic equations that we sometimes use. er, if you can remember at school working out equations, as long as you filled in the, the right bits in the right place, you got the right answer. i'm afraid it's a bit like that. we're using a policy fee, now the policy fee at the moment is one pound ninety eight. however, because we're going to include waiver of premium automatically for most of our clients it's got to be the best thing, the best option, we're looking at two pounds and tuppence as a policy fee, because that's including two percent waiver of premiums. so we're looking at a policy fee of two pounds and tuppence. now if like me, if somebody asked you how much it costs, you're going to give them an approximation, it's quite adequate to add on two pounds. the tuppence doesn't matter too much. is that per month? that's per month, yes. per ten thousand. no, not per ten thousand, per month. just per month. per month. per policy per policy it, it's the same fee regardless of the policy rates. absolutely, yes. so if we look now at the example we've got here. he wants a hundred thousand sum assured, escalating premium with waiver of premium on the sum assured for life. well if we look under escalating premium and single life male, that's the first column, we come to the figure of three pound fifty five? he wants that three pound fifty five for every ten thousand, that's obviously thirty five pounds fifty, add on the policy fee, thirty seven pounds fifty. if you want to be totally accurate, thirty seven pounds fifty two. now it may differ slightly by a penny from the computer quote anyway, so i always say, if that was me, it's going to cost you, what was it,thirt , what did it work it out, thirty seven pounds fifty. it's going to cost you under thirty eight pounds, so i've got a little bit of wei , leeway if i made a few mistakes. and when you go back with thirty seven fifty, or fifty two, he's quite happy. the selected period, o k, in this case, the selected period is fifteen years, yes? now if we go back to the same example, the cost per every ten thousand for fifteen years is one pound fifty seven. so if he wants a hundred thousand, for every ten thousand it's one pound fifty seven, it's going to cost him fifteen pounds seventy, and add two pounds, it's seventeen seventy. it's quite simple really? o k. what do you notice about seventeen seventy though? can we charge somebody seventeen pounds seventy for a policy? no there's a minimum premium. it's below the minimum premium, so what will he have to pay? twenty pounds twenty pounds, what will happen to the remaining two pounds thirty odd? it buys increased life cover. no it buys him more units. so he's going to get the benefit of it anyway, in the cash value. that, that twenty pounds, that, that's inclusive of the two, of the policy fee? that includes the policy fee. yes? right, can i ask you then, to do example two. we've done example one together, can i now ask you to do example two, which basically is the sum, is the same sum but the client's a smoker, so you go to the back of the book. then example three yes, which is over the page. right, o k. . that's for one hundred thousand, that's for ten thousand, that's for ten thousand, that's right, and when we looked at the fifteen years, that's the for fifteen years, that's again for twenty five. for two hundred thousand, multiply that by the same, have, have a, have a try on, on this one, yes, you start this example exactly the same, but harry's a smoker, and work through as the example, o k. have you done number three? good,example three where you've got a joint life policy, the male gives you the page name, the female will give you the , because it will say joint life, and it will have the female age in groups. mm? say that's how joint lives, first claim, the male age will give you the page, and the female age will tell you which of those vertical column to use, where it says . the male's thirty,so you move to thirty, this man's, yes, and she's thirty two, so you go to thirty, they have joint life, so you go to thirty, that's the one to use. so you wouldn't look on the, the older no, no, you look on the male age, look at the male age. right, that's always the case? that's always the case, yes, not the older, male age for page, female age for column. so that's the back of the thirty column? absolutely erm, is it escalating or level premium that they're paying. level level, so that's right, level premiums kim, i think it's the next section down here. it says here, yes, i think you've got it explained. thanks, yes, yes . the reason i put them over here, was because of the level of the sum assured right, but er, the minimum level are we doing example four, is that alright? not at the moment because i haven't gone through how to do that. stop showing off there you are, happy, do as you're told. there he goes again. yes, that's right. , three pounds eighty, that's thirty one pounds eighteen, is that, that's right, good. fifteen years, is three pound eighty, yes, so, you, i think you must have gone down, yes you went down to the level one, yes? the only thing that i'm not sure about, right, let's have er, er, so far, if you're a bit slower, don't worry about it, you're not going to be asked to calculate these er, in your exam tomorrow. er, and you can spend some time looking at it in your own time, i e, going at your own pace, over the problems. erm, example two then. the sum assured for life was how much, anybody? example two, fifty eight, eighty two. yes, fifty eight, eight two fifty eight, eighty two, that's the premium, yes yes, that's the premium, i said the sum assured, sorry, i'm reading it off here. it's the end of the day. er, the premium, fifty eight, eighty two, the selected period, at fifteen years of premium was? thirty three thirty three three, thirty three thirty two eighteen, two. right. example three, the cost of the sum assured of life? eighty pounds seventy four. eighty, seventy four? yes and for twenty years? fifty five, eighty six. fifty five, eighty six. brilliant. it's easy really, isn't it? if you get the right column. yes, yes,and you're sitting there in front of a client, checking that you've got smoker and not non-smoker etcetera, etcetera. let's look at er, example four. let's not, let me put it easier. erm, let's say you had a client who knew how much they could afford to spend, so what you were doing then was you'd tell them how much life cover you could afford. so let's start simply, let's say your client could actually afford forty two pounds a month. the first thing you'd have to do, is take off the policy fee. remember the last thing you did was add it on, so if we say it's two pounds, we're back down to forty pounds that he's got to buy units. if you look at any page, you'll see the bottom part of the page will tell you how much life assurance he can get for every ten pounds he's got to spend. so if we were looking at somebody who was thirty four next birthday, and a non-smoker, which was where we started today, thirty four next birthday, non-smoker, let's have a female this time. a single female paying level premiums, she would actually get twenty four thousand, six hundred and thirty pounds life cover for every ten pounds she's got to spend. if she's got forty pounds left, she can have four times that. it's easy when the figures are easy. what are you going to then for somebody who's got thirty pounds to spend? you take off, you've got twenty two pounds, once, twenty eight pounds once you've taken off the policy fee, but you're not going to multiply it by twenty eight, you're going to multiply by, how many tens, two point eight, yes? the last two examples, i'm actually going to ask you to do tonight rather than keep you here this evening. example four, you notice it says how much cover would you, and that's you as an individual, knowing whether you smoke or not, obviously knowing your age, get if you spend thirty pounds a month with an escalating premium, and waiver of premium? one for life and one for a selected period. and then example five, living assurance on the same basis, but obviously you're going to get less because the risks are higher. so i would ask you tonight, if you could work out those two sums for yourself, and see how you get on with that. are you going to ? if you want it. erm, if somebody could spend a little bit of time with ilias because we've got this language problem and i know that he's found this a little bit difficult, i think he would appreciate it tonight, when you get together please. i'll leave it at that, erm, rate book, it needs practice at the end of the day. some of you will pick it up very simp , easily, others need to have a few tries at it. i was talking on sue, i was saying if you've got a client who didn't give you the convenient forty two pounds, but said you'd got forty or thirty pounds to spend, the first thing you've got to do is take off the two pounds policy fee, so you're left in this case, with thirty eight pounds. er, she gets that for every ten pounds she's got to spend, so you multiply it by three point eight, yes? oh, right. yes, i get it now. right, so where are we? well i'm lost at the moment. you've lost, i've lost you on this last one, kim have i? it's this last one. let me go through it again, i, i did rush through it. can we just spare a couple of minutes so we can get this straight, because i did rush through it, and it was, er, obviously wrong of me. this time, let's have this client who's aged thirty four next birthday, erm, non-smoker, it's the page we've been using, let's say our client can afford now, forty pounds, because they're likely to talk to us in terms of tens or fives, so forty pounds. so we go to the page, thirty four next birthday,non-smoker. male or female? we'll have a female,and she's paying, let's say escalating premiums. the bottom half of the page is how much she gets for every ten pounds she's got to spend, but before we find out she's got to spend, what we've got to do is take off the policy fee. so forty pounds minus the two pounds, or if you want to be totally accurate, two pounds and tuppence, policy fee,will leave thirty seven pounds ninety eight. that's what she's got to spend to buy life assurance. the other way round, we added the policy fee in last. so it can be thirty seven ninety eight, or if you're approximating it, it can be thirty eight pounds as you wish. when you look at the rate book, a single female, escalating, with the a sum assured for life, will come to nineteen, seven two three. is that right, somebody check that for me? say that again. escalating, female, thirty four next birthday, with a sum assured for life, single female. is that a non-smoker? non-smoker, yes. what's the figure? thirty four, seven twenty two thirty four thousand seven hundred and twenty two. non-smoker? i'm on living assurance, i thought that was low. sorry, i've got the wrong page. , right, let's start again, same page, what have i got there? thirty four, seven two, two. yes, that's right. just testing, really, just testing. thirty four, seven, two, two, and that's for every ten pounds she's got to spend. how much has she got to spend? she's got thirty seven pounds and ninety eight. three point seven it can be three point seven eight, seven nine eight, or you can just multiply and divide by ten for how many ten pounds there are. which ever. you can move the decimal point, or multiply and divide by ten. she's got thirty seven pounds ninety eight to spend, she gets that amount for every ten pounds, so you want to know how many ten pounds there are in thirty seven ninety eight, so you can write it out as a division sum or you can just move the decimal point. which ever you're comfortable with,, i think i'm losing my voice. kim has that helped? yes, i couldn't find that figure where you were good, fine, i'm not surprised, i was looking in the wrong rate book wasn't i? so er, that's not surprising. what about sue? sue, alright? john, alright? yes, fine, no, that's fine, i just don't. , yes, ilias, i know,y , you, you're getting there aren't you? yes yes, right, i know shirley's fine. andrew's fine, he's packing up, he's on his way home, why have i got page ? don't know actually all these pages are all lose oh, do you think they're coming out, they're, they're going? it's pages thirty six to forty five, on insurance. it's thirty five oh, we'll get the other one. these are the new rate books, we've literally only had them through this week. erm, gerald's pointed out a problem, could you look in your living assurance rate books and see if you go from thirty six next birthday, to forty five next birthday, on the smoker section? no, kim's, kim's is alright. kim's is alright? could you check whether it's just one or thirty six was that? thirty six, look at the thirty six year old, yes and do you go straight to forty five? no, no no, i don't have that one. anybody else who's got a problem on the rate book. no, that's no problem you've got twenty eight to thirty seven? you've given me covermaster. i've got one here for ninety five, is that right? there's one at the back. let's have a look, no that one, that one is right. have you got er, a problem? that's not right, it's on living assurance. right, hang on a second, i'll get you one when we've finished, i'll leave a cheque. o k, so far so good. so is phil talking it through? no, it's alright. you're alright, good. so, let's wrap up the day now. in your workbook,o k? yes, i am. with erm, that last bit? well, erm, i was just trying to do it, do it, do the example four, whilst i was here, so that if i have a problem, i, i can ask about it before i go on to example five. well example four is yourself. yes, i know which you can do tonight, we can go over it tomorrow. but it, it's the method of how you get it, that's the which is the same as, as the ones before i, i, i was just you multiply it by that. right. and you can check it tonight with any of the colleagues in the hotel to see how you're getting on. yes, right. in your workbook can i draw your attention to page seventeen. in the? workbook. i've put everything away. we, we'll do it afterwards, o k, in a sec. kim, we'll get you sorted out before you go. covermaster, living assurance, adaptable policies, it's a summary. it's talking about a scenario john and mary, page seventeen. i'd like to ask you to er, read it through, and the application form that jeff gave you yesterday, yes? yes i'm going to ask you to fill in that application form as regards john and mary as your fictitious clients, all the information is on page twenty one. page twenty one in the same book, the scenario comes first, then the information, for the application form. it's a scenario. it's a scenario, yes. oh, bang goes your beer tonight. well you didn't come up here to enjoy yourself now philip. no, i was just asking. yes, it's tonight, it's filling in the application form, but we're asking you to read the scenario so you know a little bit about the people, and then this is all the information that's been gathered. what you will have to do though, is work out the cost of the premiums, that will give you the practice with the rate books. if you have a problem, do not worry, we'll pick it up first thing tomorrow. no problem at all. but i'm sure you'll probably sort it out with your colleagues way before then. but we're not going to get tested on this? you're not getting tested on working out premiums at all. no test on working out premiums. big smile on ilias's face. yes. just one, the information for the application form. that's the app , the information for the application form. when do we get to sleep? you don't sleep, you don't sleep, janet. i suppose i'm going to do , that while i'm doing it for each course, absolutely, you could, you could actually work it all out while you're waiting for the course. so revise covermaster and living assurance, two separate exams on the skills, complete the application form, and the rest of you will be fine. and the rest of the evening you can enjoy yourselves. kim? when we come to revise, it's really more appropriate that we read through these yes, they're very good, because they come, they come up with the points and the put it in the way relating to the clients, what the clients would want to know. any questions, what the clients would want to know. any questions yes, thank you. a pleasant evening in the hotel, if there is a problem tonight with er, the food. the food taking too long, we'll ring them up tomorrow, but historically, we've found that by tonight, they've usually sorted the problem out. i think tonight will be slower, because i mean, it's this bird's eye thing, and we all start oh, it's the bird's eye thing as well. yes, yes. oh right, it's a shame you won't be able to go to it then. that's really sad. quite a long time i would have start probably with more than thirty years ago, because me mum always make cheese and i just thought making when i was still a girl at the school and since we came here and farmed on me own behalf well twenty six years we've been making cheeses here. is it all your own milk that you use for cheese ? yes we have our own cows and its all our own milk. i've got a churn of milk. how do i go about making it into a cheese? well when it comes in from the cow it's at blood heat, and e you put it through your strainer and then you drain it and er you leave it be and it coagulates, goes consistency of yoghurt, slightly thicker than yoghurt, and after that stood a certain time you apply heat then you warm it up and you stir it, you break up the curd, and the whey gradually rises to the top and your curds settles to the bottom. and again you leave it standing a certain time and you pour off your whey and take your curd in to a muslin and er hang it up and again more whey'll drain off cos it's hanging up. and after a a certain period again you break up that curd and then you pack your curd into your er cheese cokes then and er apply pressure. it goes in the cokes mid-afternoon you leave that until next morning and take it out, put in a clean muslin and turn it back in the coke and more pressure until the next morning. it seems to be one of the things actually that people that are home on holiday to orkney, you know, maybe you have lived here in the past and orkney cheese is one of the things they want to take back with them, a farmhouse cheese. oh yes er a local people coming home always like to take farmhouse cheese away and orkney people go on away on holiday again like to take ones off to their friends and relatives in the south too. now i believe you're having your dairy overhauled at the moment. how how is this going to affect things? it shouldn't really affect things er a lot it just makes things slightly more convenient. there's been a few small alterations. i had a dairy before, it's just been updated a wee bit because i make slightly more cheeses than i used to make and it'll make it er easier hopefully. what's your output of cheese? the season of the year makes a difference, presently i'll be making approximately eight pounds probably everyday. that will increase very shortly i'll have more milk. it'll probably go up by another three, four pounds and then later on er when the cows goes up to the grass i'll be making not quite double probably, but er quite a lot more than i do now up to maybe fourteen, fifteen pounds in a day. how do you see things in the future then? things can change very quickly, but presently the demand is very good. in fact it's increasing the demand exceeds the supply at the moment. it's small round cheeses that you make. what's the reason for that? they're very popular with the tourists, i think they feel they are taking back a whole cheese as opposed to a portion cut off a bigger cheese. and some of the markets that i supply, it's the hotel and restaurant trade that some of them go to, they like the small whole cheeses. they can put the whole cheese out on the cheeseboard, again i suppose to just a portion going on the cheeseboard. and i have packaging specially for the small ones, it makes them easy for people to post if they want to post them off to friends. they're quite safe in their own packaging. tourists that take them back they have the label on the box to say where they have purchased this cheese. it's a an attraction i think as well. any other problems that you're getting a bit? er sometimes i get some muddled up on that erm v a t sometimes. yep, okay. a lot of adults just haven't got a clue at working out v a t or any sort of, since you mentioned percentages it's blurgh can't do that. yeah. the woman at work, yeah. she you know well everyone'll do it, everyone did go home eventually and their wages, cos there was there was two of us, i told you didn't i, there was two of us that worked it out. she was telling you, telling you again ten per cent yeah, and we all sail go home and check, just check . what what came of it, did they they were all seven per cent, so for so it was seven per cent that they were giving him not ten per cent? yeah, so she was a bad con merchant that man didn't he get any more money out of it, but we, don't let him get away with thinking their giving him no, well they all said next time they'll check, because some of them just just take it for granted. well, you know a lot of p a lot of them just can't check. yeah. they don't know, you know, how to check. well the others have made a bit, we just took it for granted that she was giving us ten per cent rise, and didn't bother, cos they trusted her, but okay, well this will though yeah they won't trust more than the once . there's a lot of that, you know, wouldn't buy a used car of him, but it's . yeah, though, so don't forget to have him looking after my money. oh no. no. so we'll just have a little quick think about numbers generally, and then we'll sort of have a look at the fractions, and then we'll have a look at percentages yeah. just for a bit of revision. so you start of with the normal counting numbers, and everyone's quite happy and no problem with that, so we do something like seven add, let's say we do er three add seven, and what does that come to? er what, ten . okay, and seven add three. ten. no problem when you're switching round, okay, and then we do something like erm, let's say we do ten takeaway seven? three. okay, and then we do seven takeaway ten? minus three. now, okay, when you're infants and with things like that you just say can't do it yeah. which is right, you can't. no, you can't do it, you know, there's there's sensible answer. there's seven pence on the table, now take ten away, must be mad, yeah, so, anyway, we don't like saying we can't do it, in maths, so we pretend we can, and we work out this complete new system, it's all a game really, it's all a silly game yeah. and for all these negative numbers you can't say, oh look there's minus three dogs out there. well they've started giving them in schools, you've got your tab you're y aim, it's like in that piece of card with one one to ten on yep. erm, with the minus numbers on,af another piece with minus numbers on, and they use them together, they don't use them till about middle infants, so. i i think that might be a bit early actually, but i know, i know they are doing it earlier and earlier, yeah. erm. it's just like writing though, isn't it? yeah. i mean, the but my best posh, pushing all of four , for writing, and that's not right. i think, well, i think do everything as early as you possibly can, as long as the kid understands what they're doing, it's no good getting them to do things they don't understand, if they understand negative numbers do it yeah. if they don't understand, leave it until they're a little bit older and there's other, lots of other things they can learn to concentrate on. so okay, we, we invi , we invent this new system, and we say seven take away ten is minus three, okay. twelve divided by, oops, okay, we do something like erm three times four, which comes to? twelve. okay, and four times three? twelve. there's no problem there, that's okay, then we things like twelve divided by three? four. okay, and then three divided by twelve. and the answer there is well we can't do it. so that, this is when fractions come into it and everybody starts getting a bit ooh i'm not very sure of what i'm doing here because it's not, you know, it's not obvious, it's not very real yeah. it's not like putting pennies on the table and counting them, put twelve pennies on and share them out between three people, no problem, but you put three pennies and share them out between twelve people. would it work out as minus four, i can't remember? ah well, okay, let's see what it does come to. erm, how would we do it then? let's say we've got three pizzas, and we share them out between twelve people, how would you do that? if you actually had to do it. twelve of you coming tonight, and you got, you get some big pizzas as you're working you've got loads of money now yeah. right, so you get these from, you know, dial a pizza, and er three three of giant ones, please mm. and there's twelve of you to share it out, so how much are they going to get each? it's going to be two to a pizza, no well two to it's very awkward sharing three of them out, so you could start of with by just sharing one out, if we just shared one pizza out between twelve how much would you get? one pizza. one. one shared out between twelve people, what fraction do you get each? a twelfth. right, so you get a twelfth. so we're saying, well there's the first pizza, lets cut it up. that's your share out of the first pizza yeah. now we'll have the second pizza, and we'll cut that up. three twelfths, should be. great, right you're there already, so the answer is three twelfths, and that's really, it's not much of an answer, cos all three twelfths means is three shared out between twelve, we've just written yeah. it differently. we've just written it differently, say ooh yeah we've done that, fine, that was no problem, so then we have another little problem and work out what three shared out between twelve would come to, wouldn't yeah. we? and we can say well that would be the same really erm as a quarter. as a quarter, right. if we all got into groups of four yeah. and say this group of four here, erm, will get this much shared out between us, so if there were a third as many people, if there was only one person we wouldn't need so many erm, if there was only one pizza, right, yeah. a quarter of it. erm, we might have erm let's say, now we want to say, try and work this as a percentage, so if we've got point seven five, wouldn't it? well, hang on, we've got one pizza shared out between four people, right, erm how many pizzas would you go , you think that was just right that, that was wonderful, we all had just the right amount of pizza, when we had a quarter, when we had one shared between the four of us yeah. erm, but we're having a big party tomorrow night, and we're having a hundred people in, right now how many pizzas are we going to need so they get a quarter, how many makes a quarter? how many hund how many hundredths makes a quarter, in other words? well four quarters equals one. so this what we've, four quarters equals one, okay. so so as soon as you get too awkward you think, oh well, forget about fractions, and let's do it by algebra. so what have we got? we've got, we don't know how many over a hundred is equal to one over four. yeah. well if we don't know the answer what do we usually do? x right, let's pretend we do, and we've done it now, x over a hundred is the same as one over four, equals, so we've got an equation, we've got an equation with fractions, that's one of your favourites isn't it? oh yeah. so lovely. do you want to keep the fractions there or would you like to get rid of them? get rid of it. what are you going to do to get rid of it then, so we write it out again, x over times it by itself. times it by what, what will you times that buy to two. make the, make the, get rid of the hundreds on the bottom? a hundred. right, so if you times that by a hundred you've got no choice there. you've gotta times that by a hundred . right so you do it on other side and then work out what that comes to, so why did you multiply that side by a hundred? to get nought. to get one, to get to get one, yeah. to get that cancelling out so we've got the one on the bottom, which right. comes to x over one, right just x over one, which means it's going to come out to x is equal to x times a quarter, it's more point seven five, it's, no it's one times a oh yeah. hundred. that's right. so it's one times a hundred over four. which is, that's a hundred over four. yes, it's the hundred, it's a hundred over four, what does that come to, so now if you had a hundred things shared out between, what would that come to? that would be x. ah, yeah. that stays hundred it wouldn't it well cos one times a hundred. right, so, yeah, so it just comes to a hundred over four, good, now. and do you cancel that down there? just cancel it down. how many fours in a hundred? well if you can't do anything with fours in a hundred, do it in two steps, how many twos in four? two. right, so just divide that by two. er, would that be fifty? that would be fifty over two. how many twos in that, fifty divide twos in that? two. and then do it again. and you just do it again there, and yeah. wherever that is, yeah, that'd be one, and that'd be twenty five. that's it, that's great. right, so x is equal to? twenty five over one . twenty five , okay, x is equal t yeah. to twenty five, or twenty five o , x is equal to twenty five, looking yeah. wouldn't you say that that was twenty five? and what were we trying to find x for? what is it over our hundred twenty five over a hundred. so twenty five over a hundred, okay? twenty five over a hundred is equal to a quarter. so if we want to find out, and twenty five over a hundred, we've got the s , it's a special fraction, and it used to have a special name for it, and we call these percentages, twenty five per hundred, twenty five hundredths, we just say twenty five per cent. yeah. so twenty five per cent is the same as a quarter yeah. erm, what would fifty per cent be the same as? half. right. okay, and that's really, that's that's where percentages fit in yeah. they're fractions, they don't look like fractions, if someone writes down sixty per cent you think, that's not a fraction, i can't see any,with yeah. something above and something below it's just sixty over a hundred. well it just means sixty over a hundred, yeah. it's just a special, because it's a special fraction that we use a lot we just give it a special name and call it percentage, but any time someone says to you like er what's, let's try this one, now you were saying about point seven five and things yeah. what's seventy five per cent as a fraction? er that, nought point seven five. right, as a decimal it's nought point seven five, and as a fraction? that is seventy five over a hundred . right, that looks like the hundred, that's the sort of left over of the hundred, so it's just equal to seventy five over a hundred, and you yeah. like to cancel that down and see what that comes to. divide twenty fi , it's divided by twenty five wouldn't you? right, do it by, good that's very good. erm, so there's three twenty fives in seventy five right. and four. right. your mental arithmetic's getting very good, by the way, i mean, at one stage, when you first started, you'd be using using your calculator for all this, wouldn't you ? yeah. so seventy five per cent is three quarters. yeah. yeah, that's when i get mixed up, the it's the twenty five per cent and the seventy five per cent, anything in between 's alright,it's just them two , the right, the alright. wrong end of the scale. yeah, so it gets more complicated when you say what happens if i add on so much per cent yeah. erm, but the first thing is to get these straight about your seventy five per cent, what we're ta , can you work out what, as a fraction, what twenty per cent would be? twenty over a hundred. so we take away from twenty, or even tens. yeah, good, do it in tens first, so how is there a two, and five, two fifths. how many tens in a hundred? oh, sorry, erm,,ten. right, you were doing, you were two tenths, yeah. doing both methods at the yeah. same time there. and then you can cancel that and cancel that. be one fifth. one fifth, so that's it, twenty per cent is there, one fifth. what about erm, let's give you an awkward one now, let's give you an awkward one, er, plus sixty per cent, what's sixty per cent of the two? er,six of something, six and sixty, ten sixes in sixty, how many sixes in a hundred ? am i? how many tens in sixty ? oh yeah. how many tens in sixty? six, that's right. right, yeah. okay. tens in a hundred, ten six tenths six tenths? three fifths. good. that's it. so you've got no problem with these, have you? twenty minutes, do last one. thirty five per cent. what that comes to. erm. what's going to go into thirty five? five. right. seven. good, and you know your tables. erm. right, how many fives in a hundred? there's, it's going to be, twenty? yeah. yeah, that's right. how did you do it? how many tens in there just doubled it,at yeah. right good,, go for , so seven twentieths. innit one, reduce any more than that? no. so any per centage i give you now, you can turn it into a fraction, couldn't you? yeah. yeah, so if i gave you, twelve and a half per cent. that's, that's, that's nasty, cos that's got sort of fractions within fractions, and they'd say, twelve point five per cent? urgh, i think i'm not going i'll do that one, i usually don't do the hard ones. twelve and a half per cent 's going to be twelve and a half over a hundred, er, oh, well, we're going to cancel, but first of all we could go the opposite way, and multiply, just to get rid of this fraction. what would you like to multiply twelve and a half by so that the half disappears? twelve and a half. yeah, what would multiply twelve and a half by if you wanted to a half. by two, yeah? oh, that's right, yeah. right, so what do the two twelve and a half come to? two twelves would be how much? a hundred and two twelves. oh, twenty four. right, twenty four. and two halves? two. no, one, sorry. twenty five. so that comes to twenty five. right, so if we multiply this by two, from the top two and the bottom, we'll get twenty five over two hundred, then you can, if you want like to cancel that down, twenty five over two hundred, what would you, what would you cancel there? is it just fives again? yeah, it's fives again. so five fives are twenty five. right, and that? so that's eighty, and there's twent , forty, so that er, five forties, that right? yeah. so that that was quick, that five forty, i was trying to work it out out because i wasn't going to cancel it that way, but that's great. how many fives in forty? five goes into itself once, and goes into that, erm, eight times, so it's going to be an eighth. right, good so it's one eighth. so twelve and a half per cent is an eighth. yeah. seventeen and a half per cent is something horrible, it just doesn't work out to anything reasonable at all and it's it messes everything yeah. okay, so you can convert any per centage into a normal frac i mean you can leave this sort of fraction is no problem, like i say, erm, seventy eight per cent is a , seventy eight over a hundred, and normally you wouldn't have to bother cancelling them down because you'd just go to use your calculator yeah. so could you find seventy eight per cent of erm a hundred and twenty pounds? and use your calculator on it if you like, what what are you going to do? and you could write it out as seventy eighty over a hundred and twenty. is it over a hundred and twenty? mm, over a hundred, yeah . just leave that at , seventy eight over a hundred, and then? this is per centage probably. don't, don't use your per centage, er. just do seventy at the moment, just do seventy eight over a hundred. nought point seven eight. right, and then times? a hundred and twenty. yeah, times a hundred and twenty. nine, ninety three point six. ninety three pounds sixty. yeah. okay. now what you did when you worked out seventy eight per cent, you say seventy eight over a hundred, and you put it in your calculator, and you did seventy eight divided by a hundred, and that gave you nought point seven eight. yeah. so you can convert per centages into these sorts of fractions or you can convert them into decimals. yeah. which are another sort of fraction. yeah. see that. so lets convert some per centages into decimals, because this is the trick that you were using, last time you were very good at it. i said didn't i, you were very good at that, but you need to do a few, just occasionally you think wah, i can do all these now, no problem yeah. you don't do any for a month or so, you think oh i was bombing through these, now where do how do i get started? which, you know. i know, it seems like ages. right, so what's fifty three per cent as a decimal? nought point five three. didn't take long, you didn't need your calculator for that . okay,it right, erm, nought point five three, you're obviously going to do these quicker than i can write them down, so you can write them down. thanks. it's erm, what would seventy nine per cent be as a decimal? seventy nine per cent? yeah. nought point seven nine. right. well i don't think we need to go on with any more of those do we, no no. those. right now, let's think of something a bit trickier. someone buys erm let's say someone in the market, buys a a video at two hundred pounds from the wholesalers, right? what a mug. a video player, you know. yeah. two hundred pounds, it's a good one, double decker with all sorts of, and then adds a forty five per cent mark up on it, so it starts at two hundred pounds, then adds you've got to add forty five per cent. add forty five per cent. right. so what's, how are you going to work out what that comes to? so it'd be forty five over a hundred yep. times, hold on,forty five divided by a hundred times two hundred right. ninety pounds. so ninety pounds is the mark up, ninety pounds is what you add to it, okay, and that was good that you worked that out, cos a lot of people just think ooh, you just add forty five pounds on they do, i mean that's the most common thing that people want to do. oh, they just do the two hundred pounds and then these people add forty five per cent in on the the because right. i've done that myself. right. er i've done that myself when i was in school. oh it's okay. so m what how much does it come to altogether then when he's added the ninety pounds on? two hundred and ninety pounds. right, so we've got the ninety, plus the original two hundred, and that comes to two ninety. now you were doing it a very neat way, a quick way, of doing it all in one go, weren't you? yeah. you remember what you were doing? er i done the forty five over a hundred, and timesed it. times nought point four five of eight by two hundred and got the answer. the that was your ninety. ninety. but you had a way of going straight to the two ninety in one go, do you remember what that was?you'd worked on it yourself, you you were doing just nicely. what we've got here is, you know what forty five is, you don't need to do forty five divided by yeah. a hundred, you know that, you just sort of, you've just been doing it on those out of your head, so we've got two hundred times, now what do we finish off with, we finish off with once yeah. one two hundred, and then we add on. the forty five. nought point four five . four five. off two hundred, now how much have we got all together? one point four five . four five. that's two hundred, you remember yeah. that now, yeah. try that one then, two hundred times one point four five. two hundred two hundred and ninety. so go straight to the answer yeah. and get it very quickly without messing about, try this one then, erm, four hundred plus that, plus seventeen point five per cent, and, now then okay, let's do it this way. let's do four hundred plus seventeen per cent. right. erm, can you do that the quick way? that way? yep. so it'd be four hundred, times one. yeah. point point. one seven. that's it. okay. four hundred and sixty. right, four sixty. are you rounding it to nearest pound? that is. that's it spot on. good. should have i should have done that. right, and just, just work out what seventeen per cent, just try seventeen over a hundred times four hundred, just to check, see what it comes to, you wouldn't normally check it. seventeen per cent. sixty eight. that makes four hundred. yeah. so that's that's a good way of doing it. now let's, so shall i do one more of those? yeah. hee, hee, hee, hee, and i want you to do four hundred times, i said four hundred add seventeen point five per cent. what's that going to look like? now that's really confusing so it quite throws you having another decimal in, doesn't it? all you do is you just one point go on. one seven five. one one seven five. one point, that's it. one, oh, seventeen five, one seven five. that's it, so you just if there's any decimal points in here you just ignore it, forget about it, and you put your, because if it's a per centage you point just go in there. so it should come to a little bit more than that one, shouldn't it? four hundred and seventy. right. okay, you happy with that? because that's the bit that really sh throws people, yeah. if it was seventeen per cent, oh i can do that it's point one seven, but when it's seventeen point five, and where does the point go? i've got two yeah, well, i was in a bo , i'm in a book club, and you have to add your own erm per centage on yeah, i see. so i do that that way when i'm doing it to practice. good. so, cos i do actually sit down and work it out, and me mum comes in and says, what you doing,, so i do use that way. alright. okay, so you could do this one, erm, six hundred plus forty seven point eight, point five per cent. with that one, right. how are you going to work that one? that's it. that's it. simple as that. eight hundred and eighty seven. and ten pence. right. and then as a quick check, just a rough check. forty seven, out, so this is about nine hundred quid, isn't it? yeah. roughly. forty seven point eight per cent, well it's about forty eight per cent . forty eight per cent is about fifty per cent, what's fifty per cent as a fraction? half. so it's six hundred, plus about half, which comes to a about nine hundred, should come to a bit less than nine hundred, and it does, so that's almost certainly yeah. right. add two hundred and eighty seven, and ten pence. right. now, how about take away in the middle of per centages? this time we start off with six hundred and we take away thirty per cent. okay, so do that one any way you like. so, thirty per cent of a hundred. what does that come to, without doing it, what would it be as a decimal? thirty nought point three. right, good. then minus, but i'm not sure about that one. right. okay. so, if you're going to find thirty per cent of six hundred first yeah. so find out what thirty se what thirty per cent of six hundred is. wouldn't that be best, six hundred, no, nought point three times six hundred. right. okay. so because that's off. right, thirty per cent of six hundred one hundred and eighty times six hundred equals, ha, carry on with that,one hundred and eighty. right, so, that's how much you've gotta take away from six hundred, so you can just whack in a six hundred over the top and then take it away. see what you mean. but i want one of these. good. two four er four and twenty pounds. right. okay, so that should come to four hundred and twenty there, you could look at it this this way, it's six hundred times, the one lot of six hundred yeah. and you take away nought point three. oh yeah. so it's six hundred times, what does one take away nought point three come from, to, one point one point nought, take away nought point three, we'll try it on here, one point nought take away nought point three, i mean, most of the time you would be actually using the nought point something. right, nought point point what? can't have nought take away three, so so what you going to do? borrow that one. okay. ten take away three is seven. right. it's going to be nought point seven. right. so, it's nought point seven. so we've got six hundred times nought point seven. now that one, you're doing, sort of doing this bit, erm, you can do that bit on the calculator and then do times six hundred. yeah. if you like that method, use it. if you don't, if you're not happy and you're not very confident with it yeah. you might be better just doing it this way, just work out what thirty per cent of it is and then take it away from the original yeah. that's that, i mean that's fine, that'll work all the time, this way, if you practice it, you'll find it much quicker, and it's easier yeah. and, you know, that, so let's let's try this one the the quick way. six hundred times er well hang on, six hundred take away, don't use your calculator yet, just think about this and tell me what you're going to do. six hundred take away twenty per cent. how do we do that the quick way? times. it's going to be now you can do that on your calculator. yeah. nought point eight. right, good. and normally they won't be as easy as this, so you probably will be doing them on the calculator, so to do this you just do, erm one take away whatever the per centage is. it's going to be four hundred and eighty. right, which is what we got when we did it the other way. got four hundred and twenty . did we? oh we'll do a different one yeah. so we're doing twenty per cent. it's just as well. right, erm, so if we do this one, er, three hundred and sixty, three hundred and sixty take away, er, what'd twenty five per cent, let's start confusing you now, with these twenty fives and seventy fives, because this might be where it happens, you see. right. three hundred and sixty take away twenty five per cent. times right. try, do do that one. right. that'd be a nought anyway. right. we can always put noughts on the end of, after the decimal place,. so, we're going to have to borrow one from the, and then put a minus one, put that one there, leaves five, and minus one, minus two, leaves, can't do that anyway, so you're going to have to borrow this one right. and use that as an note and bring that back to one, but you still can't do it, so that's got to be minus one ah. mm. urgh. i think you're getting a bit well yeah. involved with the minu , you were doing well on that one, with the minus one. well if you bring the one back you still can't do one minus two. no. easy way to do it is if we've got one if you borrow on that, unless you borrow another one. right, if we've got, let's let's say we've got one point nought nought, and we've got nought point two five, erm, borrow that one first of all, because we know we're going to need it yeah. and that makes that ten ten lots of ten which leaves eight. er there's ten lots of ten. oh yeah. okay, now we're going to take the five from nought, well we can't do that, so we'll borrow a ten, borrow a one from that ten and leave the nine, yeah, that's right. okay, and then what does that come to, but again, you wouldn't do that this way, you'd do that on your calculator, i just want seven. you to try that for practice in five. decimals, cos you're supposed to know about decimals as well, so do that one on your calculator now, i know you've just, you've just worked it out the long way, so you just, and you don't even need the one point nought, you can just put one, and then take away point, nought point two five. nought point seven five. and it's already in your calculator now, so you can just do times three sixty. so you're only doing one operation. not only is it quicker, in the exam, but every time you press a button, you know, you've got a chance of pressing the wrong one, or yeah. pressing it twice, so the lea ,bu , you know, the less button pressing you do the better. that's,th , the way i done that there, that's because we were shown, in school, to work backwards. yep, yep. that to mean that that was a good way of doing it, the way yeah. you were doing it, but you went wrong on that, but yeah. you don't, you know, you'll get away with doing it, as long as you can do those on your on your calculator, that's okay, but that's a that's a quick way of doing that yeah. you could do it the long round, now i think you're okay on those. right. i'll give you a problem, to look okay. at, some things to work out, erm, you better write them out and then you can read your own writing then, so if i say, er, you can only in , you can just make your own notes on what you need to do the question, but computers normally costs six hundred pounds,but erm, rumbelows are doing a fifteen per cent discount,how much do you pay for it? cos this is another thing, sometimes they'll say discount, and i get ta i get students who said to me, what does this mean? what does discount mean? and they don't know, so you're happy with that aren't you, yeah. discount? just means money off. right. erm, and next door they've got a what, the same computer was seven hundred and fifty pounds. but they're doing a twenty five per cent discount. which ones going to be, what they'd normally ask is, how, what, what is the difference is prices? and they'd usually say, which one would you buy? on the assumption that, you know, you'd buy the cheap one, might and when you want to get rid of it i'll buy the dear one. what's the difference in price? yeah, price reduction pay. erm, i think one of those is probably enough, but i'll give you another one if you want you can have one, yeah. a try that. erm, i'll make them, i'll make them all take away, sorry, discounts, because if you could do those you can do the adding ones. yeah. i'll give you another, i'll give you one adding up one, then, okay, er one, in one shop it's erm eight hundred pound plus vat the computer? yeah, er, well this is a different thing now, it is er something else, a different type of computer, say, in one shop it's eight hundred pounds, plus vat and in the second shop it's nine hundred and twenty five pounds, but you don't pay any vat on that one, it's already got the vat in mm. nine hundred and twenty five gross. twenty five. right. which is the cheapest? yeah. now that excluding vat though. that, this one includes. oh, that's right. the vat is that you yeah. don't have to add, no vat to be added on yeah, that i know. it's all in the price there, because this is what you actually get very often, you're ringing some places up and they'll say, oh but you you had vat through this week . what's the vat? what per centage is the vat? seventeen point five, unfortunately. seventeen point five . be nice if it went up to twenty per cent in the budget cos everyone could work it out more easily, yeah. it'd cost 'em, cost them a lot more, okay . what was the cheapest? yeah, technically, it's which is the cheaper, if there are only two. how's you how's your writing doing? i know you haven't been doing any english and that, but erm, have you have you been doing much reading? i've, i've just been reading here some books that i've got upstairs, and stuff, and i i i went to see one of erm shakespeare's erm, i went to see a midnight summer's dream yeah. midsummer night's dream. on friday night, the ballet, yeah. and it was really good, i wa i wa i wanna see the play, right. but i've never had a chance to see the play, and i've got i've got a full book of his works upstairs, and right. i've read it over and over again, but i just keep on going back to it, cos i can just go on reading it for you like it? ages, yeah i do. i i i i think it's a bit awkward, because some of the words he uses are, there a bit strange, and they're not in the dictionary any more, and er yeah. they used to use words like that, you know, hundreds of years ago, but you don't yeah, but you just, you just figure out for yourself what right. they mean, you've you've got a fair idea. yep, you work it out from yeah. context. me friend over in norway, she said she's she got over there and sat down and she thought, yes, she's got the complete works of shakespeare, i'll have a whale of a time trying to read it, she picks up the book, it's all in norwegian. oh no. well, it well, it well yeah,it has to be rather awkward to read that i think, i don't think i'd fancy having a go at norwegian. and she's picked quite a few words up, and yeah. she's come home and that, and i i picked a few words up like, and alright. we there er easier to say when you've got erm a bit of drift down you as well. or a, or a scouse accent, yeah. some of our , i mean, er scouse is a scandinavian word. yeah,. scouse. apparently one of the the little erm boys she say, he wets himself all the time, and she turns round and she goes, he goes to er, ha ha,he started himself, and you have to change all his clothes, like that and she said sounds like a nice kid. he's, he's, she said he's nice, mm. but he just, he said, she's bright, bit he's just rebelling a bit is he? yeah, erm, his mum bribes him, a lot. you be nice and you can have a you stop wetting yourself, if you don't wet yourself for a week i'll get you a toy, yeah. and she said that's just not the way it's done, so she she saying to him now, if you da if you wet yourself once more you're going back in a nappy. mhm. so he stays dry most of the time now. how old is he? he's only about, about three, so so he's old enough yeah. to know when he wants to go to the loo. i know, well she said sounds as if he was doing it deliberately to get back at her, doesn't it? yeah, well she said, it's hard you see, cos when they go, she goes out, erm, to a place called frognapark and they have no public toilets, right. so you're in the end, you have to say to him, well you'll have to wet your pants, cos because, it's like a bi bit longer the trek . if he's if he's three he can can find a, find a drain, or just yeah. go sit in, go in a corner here, rather than wet his pants. right, okay. erm, do another discount one, then erm yeah. what's, let's say we're selling a, selling a printer, at two hundred and ninety nine pounds. but there is a sale, and it got, they're doing forty per cent off. okay? what is the price? two so it's, that's it. how much do you pay in the sale? okay? do you like bella's trophies? on the erm ideas don't they? plus, plus you got to see how the other breeds are doing, and yeah. everything else, don't you? right, bearings time. now this is probably a . which way's north, do you know? that way. that way? okay. good, erm, right, erm so, i want you to take a bearing on me, tell me what bearing i am from where you are. forty five degrees. right, i'll take a bearing on you, first of all . now, let me see. nought, forty five, ninety, so you're ninety degrees north, which is forty five degrees away from me. er, how do you sort this out? perhaps you can help me, one day, never mind. right. cos i'm sat dead. yeah? that's north, okay? that's pointing north. that north. right, well you're on a bearing of forty five degrees from me, right? yeah. now what bearing am i from you? i can do the easy one, you can do the hard one. so i'm north. no, that's, the window is north north. right, so i'm going to take a bearing on you. what i do, that's north, and then i sort of point round, i know it's rude to point, measure that angle, forty five degrees, okay. yeah. you're on a bearing forty five degrees, so. and you're forty five degrees away from me. well i'm not so sure about that, but that's where i am, there, and that's north, okay, don't forget that north is nought yeah. always nought, and you just, so i line up the way that is, where am i? i'm about here say, i line that up, i take a bearing on you, that's forty five degrees. see. so that's where you are, give me the one out . always draw that line in for north, i've just used the red line there. you usually have to start in the middle of the page. okay? now, so, that up there so it's sort of facing the right way. what bearing are you from me? in what, what bearing, sorry, what bearing am i from you? i take the bearing from me, you're on a bearing of forty five degrees, now, you take a bearing on me, and tell me where i am. so, that's north. yeah. okay now, from where you are you're there. north. so you're forty five degrees. now first of all i'm going round the wrong way. first of all that's north, so you get nought, and yeah. don't forget to use the outside scale, and the other thing is, make sure you've got it the right height, it's not a precise okay, there's all sorts of them, i mean you can have it the wrong nought, yeah. the inside nought instead of the outside, or you could have it upside down or anything else, but that's pointing north, you must line it up so it points north, right, now what bearing am i from you? right. two hundred and twenty one degrees. okay. is that actually a forty five there?that was that was a forty five, near enough, now, how did you work that out? because the first thing you have to do is what? before you can take a bearing at all there's something you have to do, which is what, what am i about to do? draw the line north. right. you must put in your north, otherwise you haven't got anything to take a bearing from. yeah. so, nearly every point on your diagram should have a line going up. like so. when we normally when we draw it we normally put north going straight up the page, so each person, or each ship, or whatever it is is a different point. you'd need a different north. they're all pointing the same way, they're all pointing yeah, but north. but they're all from their base . right, so when you measure that,okay, you best put it the right way up so you can see what you're doing, and we'll turn it back in a minute. two hundred and hang on, hang on. i haven't got it exactly on. that's where we're taking the bearing. yeah. okay. there. so you just line that upon there to make sure. that's lined up north, make sure that's right on the angle you're measuring, now it's about there. two hundred and twenty six. twenty five. two twenty five. okay. all the way round there. yeah, i get it. so, standing up a bit here, come over by the window. this is so you remember it. okay, you stand there, stand, just stand about, hang on, stand about there. yeah. right, and i'll stand here. now, i'm going to take a bearing on you. first of all where's north? right, so here's my nice straight line pointing north. yeah. and then i point to you. now which way do i turn when i'm going to point to you? clockwise. good. always clockwise, so i stay to forty five degrees. now you take a bearing on me, should tell me exactly what you're doing. so i'm going to be standing on here. right. and i should move round like that, clockwise, there. okay. do it, do it again. just do it, just, and as you do it think i'll remember this for my examine, right? so i'm standing straighter on a straight line. right. and i wanna turn two hundred and twenty five degrees. you've got to turn clockwise, but i can't, yeah. okay. so i've got to turn round. going, so you go, that bit when you, when you, when you get there back to the straight line. you've got a hundred and eighty yeah. then and then you got the rest of it, so you'll always go more than a hundred and eighty, now when you, when you're pointing you're facing that way again, turn around that way again, when you're facing that way, erm especially if i'm about erm, say especially if i'm about here. yeah. right, take a bearing on me. yeah, got it. so yeah, and it's really tempting isn't it? yes. it is when, when, when you're there this one yeah. varies it's only three hundred, especially if i were that i only there, it's about that much. yeah. no. for all the way round it's got to be clockwise, yeah. if you start, and that's what most people get wrong with erm bearings in the exam, yeah. and they always give you a question like that where it's, you know, there's a nice little short way, which is the wrong way round yeah, so remember that, do when you do the bearings if you're doing some, erm examples, or you're looking through, or you're doing some revision, get up, stand up, and think, right what's to think of, oh it's not there, like if i'm taking a bearing on these flowers, it's, well, just that much in it, you know, yeah. get dizzy going all the way round, but make sure you do, you know, stand up and do it, and then it'll go in . hey, that'd be a good one for spatial awareness, thanks for the idea, yeah. get in , why not? get them doing bearings when they're when they're two, as long as they understand yeah. what they do, i mean just play a game, it's just a ga it's a it's a game, like sort of simon says, try and catch them out in things, you'll say right, now you've got to point at a window, say, and then you have to point at, and you can get them all doing it, you yeah. have to point out, joe, and they all go now, okay, now a new game. you point at the window, but you must all turn round that way, turn round to your right so you're going round, then clockwise they probably wouldn't understand, but yeah. they must keep turning round to your right until you point at them, and you mustn't go the short way, and you can play like erm, sort of version of musical chairs where you eliminate the ones who get it wrong, you know, yeah. and they, if they go round the wrong way, oh all right you're out, now we try again, and yeah. you point out this one, erm, they won't know what it's about at all, it's just a nice game, it's just fun, but later, when they come to do bearings, it'll se , it'll be se they'll understand, yeah. natural to them, yeah. and they won't know what hit them, oh that'll be so naturally i'll go round that way, not the short way, why's that? why? cos you taught them early. so you're going to remember that, yeah. tell me about taking bearings, what do you do, let's give you an example, of some bearings to take, erm, and then you can tell me what you're doing, so there's a point there, and we'll call that erm, p, just to be awkward, now let's say what we'll do, this is what we'll d , this is a typical problem in fact, erm, i'll even draw that line on for you to start with, yeah, here's the problem, a ship is sailing due north, okay, and when it's at the point of a it takes a bearing on the lighthouse, so the lighthouse is somewhere, don't know where it is, but bearing of l from a is forty five degrees, and the bearing of l from b, which is when the ship has sailed on a lot further mm. is erm, a hundred and twenty degrees, all right? right. now i'd like you to draw those two bearings and find out where l is, this this lighthouse, so tell me what you're doing first of all. i'm going to put that there. right, that's a bit awkward. okay. erm, five and forty five degrees. right. when you put it on check that the nautical, that you haven't got your thing upside down yeah. that the nought on the on the outside is at the top, not the nought on the inside which yeah. is down here, but the nought on the outside at the top. erm,. right. i'm drawing me line. right. just keep going for as long as you like on that line. way mm. up, way up here, keep going way up right oh yeah. with that line, because you don't know where this light house is. okay? all you know is you took a bearing from a and it could be anywhere along here, could be quite close to it or it could be miles up over here. yeah. okay. erm, then when you took it, b, it was a hundred and twenty degrees, so it was the right. i'm miles out. doesn't matter. er, and also when you are drawing it it doesn't matter if you keep going right. because you've past it so it that's it, so, when you were here, when you, when you, say you're in the ship, yeah. and you're at a, let's say, let's say, north is that way, okay, and you you set this up and you have a look, you say, where's that lighthouse, oh it's on a bearing of forty five degrees, and a lot later when you've sailed sort of past the lighthouse, or the lighthouse is behind you, you take a bearing, and you still go around clockwise, mm. it's a hundred and twenty, so it's where they, where they meet is yeah. where the lighthouse is, and that's what they actually use it for, taking bearings on ships, and if you do that and you draw your diagram, you can work out how far you are from the lighthouse, because it might, you might have in your charts so that's what it is then, the screens just like a protractor, they there's another protractor. yeah, exactly. er on the computer yeah, yeah. and you do it in the airports as well, i've seen, i er, me uncle works in manchester airport yeah. as an air traffic controller, so right. so let's say your uncle got you a job in the airport as an air traffic controller, right yeah. and let's say that's north yeah. and erm you're looking, you're, let's say you turn up looking at a screen, you're actually standing up like they used to do in the old days before they had radar mm. with a pair of binoculars, turning round looking for planes coming in yeah. right, and you say, oh there's erm john's plane's coming in at forty five de , john's plane's coming in at forty five degrees, you see. yeah. erm, from, going back to , okay? and they expect me to co be coming in from here, yeah. yeah, if you don't measure it the right way, and go all the way round there and say that he's coming in on two hundred and twenty five degrees twenty five degrees. on a bearing of two twenty five degrees, the other air traffic controller might, if you tell him forty five degrees, he'll say, oh that's alright, he's way over here, he's not going to collide with this seven four seven that's coming in this way, yeah. and so it's very important that you give the bearing correctly. yeah, he's forty five degrees, coming in at forty five degrees from me, that's what they should say. no, what they should say, is we only ever no, yeah, well two hundred and twenty five degrees, yeah. they just say two hundred and twenty five, cos if you start saying forty five degrees from from me, yeah. me it's going to get very confusing yeah. so we have a nice simple rule. you always point to north, always go clockwise subs have got them as well, haven't they? yes. yeah. subs and ships. you might here on erm, ah if you've seen old war film there's someone in a a ship, and he'll say, torpedo, bearing yeah. three six, he'll say bearing two seven o, now if he says torpedo bearing two seven o, show me where the, show me where the torpe , that's that's the ship there, the s, where would the torpedo be coming from? so, two seven o, it'd be coming from there. yep. so when he knows exactly where the, where it's coming in from yeah. he knows how to take avoiding action. but if, if you were here, and you're on the bridge, and you get it's your turn to look out for torpedoes, and you're getting a bit panicky, and you measure it round this way instead. why do they have the numbers going round anticlockwise as well? well that's so you can work out, erm, if you if you look at any two numbers they add up to a hundred and eighty, oh yeah. on this side, erm, they have them so you can work out the reverse bearings, but it's it's better not to use those, just, stick with the out cos it confuses m , sometimes it confuses me. it does, just stick with the outside ones yeah. and go around there, well, going back to this one, you're bearing, right, you're at s and you take a bearing on this ship, j, and the bearing is two hundred and twenty five degrees, now the one ship at j takes a bearing on you, and he gets forty five degrees, well that angle, there, is always the same as that one yeah. that's always forty five degrees. so. yeah, cos we done that in pythagoras. something similar yeah. with erm the hill top, and i drew the other triangle, right, the angles outside? yeah. adding up to one hundred and eighty. the one outside the triangle there. right. so, if i take this bearing, this is a g very common question they have in g c s e, take a bearing from j and it's forty five degrees, right? now that is the the reverse bearing, the back bearing, and that'll be right on, right on and that would be, that would be, so if we're doing it this way, right, let's let's erm, forget about where we are sitting at the moment now, and just look we're in a helicopter looking at these ships now, so this one radios you in the helicopter and says, that ship s is on a bearing of forty five degrees yeah. right, and then this ship, s, radios the helicopter and says, this ship j is on a bearing of, and let's say, let's say, he does it the wrong way round, is on a bearing of forty five degrees, yeah. well you think that can't be right, because, can you work out what this bearing's going to be, and instead of measuring it could we have calculated it? that's always the same as that, that angle is the same as that angle. well wouldn't it be on the reverse bearing. the two hundred and twenty five? it is the two hundred and twenty five, but how could we calculate that from just looking at, if they just told us and you didn't use the protractor. that's forty five, how much is just that much of it? ninety. is it? i mean, no, a hundred and eighty. right so that bit of it is a hundred and eighty, and that bit will be forty five, yeah, so so what a hundred and eighty add forty five, okay . five, yeah. so if we did it this way, erm, let's pick an actual bearing, so that we get it right. so this time if that was seventy? so what's going to be? so there's a, and there's b, we're going to take a bearing here, it's the north still, take a bearing here, from north, measure it round, seventy degrees. now what i want to know is could you work out, without measuring it, could you work out what that one will be? a hundred and eighty plus seventy degrees. that's it. and this is a very common question. don't forget the big thing is about the bearing of and from, the bearing of b, and everyone must have gone and put the p put the protractor on b yeah. so the bearing of b, from a, and from is where we start from. yeah. so if i say the bearing of b from a is seventy degrees then that's where we start from. where we put our protractors and start from, at seventy degrees, and then they'll say, so the bearing, the bearing of b from a is seventy degrees, and then they'll say, what is the bearing of a from b? and that's a very common one they give. and then you just put a hundred an , a seventy, plus a hundred and eighty, right, so if we're in a helicopter up here, and this ship says the bearing is seventy five degrees, right? mm. and this ship says the bearing is?just check that one is two hundred and fifty three degrees, right? yeah. now what that tells us is they can't both be right, mm. because this should be, if this one's right it'll be a hundred and eighty at seventy five plus the five. which is how much? five, it's fifteen,er two hundred and fifty five. two hundred and fifty five, and if we did it to he's absolutely right, erm then this one should have given his bearing as two fifty three minus seventy, which comes to, what does that come to? minus thr , sorry, minus one eighty.. two five three. which is two five three, so if you're in the ship you can have them you can do, work this out from the bearings they both give you and check that they're roughly right, they won't be exactly right mm. cos the ships rolling like this, and someone's trying to take a bearing, it's quite difficult at sea, but they get a, they do, they get very good at tacking fairly accurately. mm, now, haven't you got questions on bearings that we did, haven't you, and notes on it? yeah, it wa , we've actually done that one today, we've done that one. whi , using forty five degrees? yeah. yeah, and that one with seventy. yeah. and forty five degrees is one , try it, try it, do that one again with forty degrees. right. and, and draw it, and stand up and think how you're going to do it, and maybe you sort of, you know, sit here or something, when i've gone and face the window and say, that's north, and i must make sure i get it set up, get this the right way up and , yeah. you've got one of these, haven't you? yeah. yeah. okay, so try that with erm, twenty five forty, erm, a hundred and fifty, and two hundred and ten. all different angles for in there, and you just sort of draw it and work out what the other one is, calculate it first, alright, that's, that's a from b, i'll move that a and b as well. okay? yeah. this is bearing of a, this one b, from is where you start. for each one of these calculate the bearing of b from a, okay? yeah. and when you've calculated it, draw some of them, and erm just check them yeah. and see they come okay, because you need to do the drawing as well to sort of get you used to yeah. you know, getting used to the feel of it, it's alright just talking about it or just doing some calculations and just thinking, oh yeah, i can do that now, but you can't beat really getting down and drawing the pictures, and yeah. playing with it and stuff like, i think i should have gone a while ago, actually, yeah. other things to get caught up with, er, four o'clock, got to be over in toxteth fairly soon. there's your ten pounds. thank you very much. your ten pounds take away nine pounds is minus four hundred pounds, which means you owe me four hundred pounds . you wish. it's five hundred is it? it might be nothing at all. don't go away, don't go away. aargh, oh. i knew i'd do that, bottoms fallen out of my little, my little world, thanks. here's some coins for playing with, for doing erm, adding up and takings aways with the younger ones, and i keep those in there, and they're all over the bottom of that bag. i used to have them little plastic ones, that they're they're fine, but i think y you can't beat real ones yeah. because, you know, erm, most kids these days, especially by the time they're nine or ten, they're used to having their own pocket money, and then you, and they say they can't do any maths at all, and you say well, if you had a fifty pence and you bought something for twenty four, how much change ? yeah, cos he knows he went down the shop, yeah. phworgh, no problem. yeah. yeah. and they can do maths, they just, it's just that when you call it maths they say they can't do it. yeah, it's like the little ones, they the, the, the, erm, they handle all sorts, and when you comes actually down to seeing it on paper, you ke , it's alright if they're just counting it there in the hands and stuff. but that's, i mean that's what you've got to start from, from doing the counting and then getting to right it out, how much have got there? twenty five p, write it down. how much have you got? two ten p s, and one five, or something. have you used all them ladybird like er matching numbers now in the scho in the schools and that, and you've actually got to sit there and count them, so. yeah. some o , to some of them it just bores them stiff. well i think most kids are interested in counting er if it's something that they're interested in, but if they're counting, erm, you know, little dots on a bit of paper or something, it's boring, but if they're i know it counting butterflies on there's a little boy in the nursery, and the the nursery teacher says he's he's thick, for a, he's four, and he's with the younger ones, and she said he's thick because, erm, he just can't be bothered, but what it is, he knows it, yeah. and he thinks well why should i waste my time? right. doing it for her when i know i already know it. so he's not not at all thick, he's just bored, and she's not spotting that and yeah. giving him something to he's a lot to stretch him . he's erm he's a lot more intelligent than he lets on, and he's one of these that lets all the others push him down, where at the end of the day he can turn round and gets what he wants doesn't he ? yeah, because he's the smart one. right. and he knows, he knows his little w his, they how to work on people, so he's not at all daft, eh? no. he knows what's going on and how to make it work . smar smart alec. did you, did you try that erm joining the the dots up on a on a graph that you were going to do last time? oh, no, i didn't get, no i didn't get a chance, no. oh, works very well. tell you what i will do, have a go cos i want you to try that cos it's nice, erm, when you've done it, one day yeah. i promise, but not at the moment cos it needs a lot of setting up, i'll get myself to set my computer up specially to make those disks yeah. because i can't do them on my main one, i'll have to power up another one and getting wires between them and yeah. stuff, erm, i'll i've got a disk that does interesting little joined up lines, and there's one where you can just put numbers in yourself and it'll draw all sorts of pictures for you oh, yeah. and you can probably do, i don't know if you could do print screen, no, if you got, you'll have to learn graphics, but anyway, i'll tell you about that when, when you do it, my numbers in there, take all the rubbish away. see you it's nothing compared to what we've got in the house. see you next week. yeah. we stayed in that house till i were eight year old and then we were went on to where i lived the rest of my time and that would have been from nineteen twenty to oh a couple of year ago. what was it like on wyre then was it very different? oh entirely different from now. the pier and the hydro and the telephone made a big difference to it. but erm other eighteen inches or two foot to a jetty to land it. all the feeding stuff and there were a pile of feeding stuff then for the hens were all and cattle were fed and all the feeding stuff had to be imported. and sometimes it landed in a gay sorry mess and it really wouldn't there just a couple of feet a couple of stones high just the height of the jetty. and we've had many a soaking landing the stuff. steamer sometimes anchored off and sometimes it didn't anchor there was too much wind i guess the anchor didn't hold too well when it was a rough day. how often did you get the steamer? oh it varied from time to time. in the winter time they'd come out on a monday morning and came back on tuesday from kirkwall. and then the summer time they come out on a monday morning and gone back at on monday night. that was the the first one i can remember. the shipping company supplied the boat for bringing the goods ashore. there's usually a old salmon coble they'd pick up from down the coast somewhere. very flat on the bottom and turned up to the bow and that's what the salmon fishers used in the in the rivers for pulling their nets in and fishing salmon on the . why choose one of the was it cos they were suitable or cheaper? well they were suitable and cheaper they were too blooming cheap for the they were usually condemned by the time we got them. they lashed alongside and they lowered the stuff right onto the onto the coble to start with we rowed it ashore with a couple or oars or maybe four oars and took off the cattle and that the same way just. or they put a sling round them or made a canvass and two supports on the side of it and the sling to be too hard on the cattle's sides. like a sort of hammock . and er put that on and tied them back and front and up on them tied them to the sides of the coble and and usually towed it with another rowing boat. it was all done by oars then. were the cattle and all ? oh they were not too bad for that we never had any real disaster . just had one jumped over the side from us once and swamp ashore again and we caught it on the on the land again and put it away. i'm having to swim them off the steamer and tow them in a dinghy to get our put the slings on them before we left the beach and just pushed them into the water and towed them off and hook the hook the into the sling and up them to give them a good wash before they went to kirkwall. it's funny how an animal like a cow or a horse would swim you would think it would be well they can they can swim like fish. for i remember us doing a flipping er a family came to wyre once and we were on the same old coble we were er doing the flipping and we thought we had nothing to do but take the rope off their heads and push them over the side of the coble onto the side of the small jetty. and instead of going up the jetty they went down and they were going to go right back to rousay again. and another instance of that was well this was not so long ago when we had a loan of a barge from just a mini landing craft sort of thing where the front of it folded down. so i flipped some cattle from the farm of and right between egilsay and rousay just a short distance, oh maybe a quarter of a miles or thereby, and oh did the shipping perfectly well and and went home and by the time i got home the message had arrived back before me that the there were two old cattle among the younger ones that the fellow had put there just to feed up and the last we saw of them was going up over the island and that was okay we thought everything was okay. so the message was that the two old cattle was back in rousay. they swam that strong current you know and landed back on rousay again. just imagine it. you'd think it would be totally alien for them to go in the water like that. i know. but they will do it. were the cattle in rousay and wyre and egilsay were they used to that kind of thing? oh no really no. well you see egilsay and rousay had piers that they could land at and they were never used to be in the water. but i've seen in my time coble to ship cattle with to swim them off. at it was on a nice day it was all right. i suppose when they got in the water they enjoyed the dip. what about other animals? sheep can be very sort of skittish and excitable . oh oh oh yes. there's sometimes there's a job to handle them. i've seen them taken to the sea too and er have a job to round them up. and the horses well they they're the worst to ship some were really bad and they had to be severely tied. some use to keep pigs too but not very many in wyre. we had a job to handle them. the screams on them more than enough. what happened in in the depth of winter when it was really bad and stormy as far as supplies and things went? oh it could be stormy right enough but well the steamer might call at rousay at that time and they would land the goods in rousay the perishables for wyre and when the weather abated we would get it from there. it was just about a half a mile of water to cross. what happened with perishables because you said there was no power no electricity no fridges no freezers nothing . nothing no i've seen the bread coming out on a monday morning warm and landed at from the big houses and that was before the days of the cooling of the bread. they have coolers now to take the steam away from them. and the boxes would even be warm when they landed at wyre down in the hold of the steamer. but the bread soon turned green in this time of year and there was quite a lot of penicillin about hence.. did folks still have girdles then or was that going out? oh yes i guess they'd girdles oh i suppose when the hens failed the girdles were possibly thrown out. but the hens when was the hurricane there about finished them. about at their height about the hurricane time and was it fifty one i think. what was it like? oh terrible. i thought i would never seen the next day. the stacks were just simply not there. it just lifted the roofing from the base of the stack and hen houses just scattered all over the place. just hens laying here there and everywhere. i remember me gathering the hens up that night late oh about ten or eleven o'clock at night and we had our own power you see by that time. just our own lighting plant and the hens would even come out and meet you in the dark they knew knew you were coming. and they'd come along cattle there just contented as could be and then they got their supper and we'd give them a wee while of light still to eat their supper. and the first was a twelve volt but then we came to a hundred and ten so i just strung it down along the two top wires of the fence and they were live and oh there were about six or nine hen houses attached to the fence with those wires for electricity. but the next morning there was nothing left. on this night you said you'd gone up to feed them? yes. oh well i gave them and went home and went to bed. and the wind got up in the night and pretty strong and we had a hut a twenty by twenty five foot fourteen eighteen war hut in the middle of a square and there was a shop and a storeroom besides. and there was nothing left but the base of that. whole thing just went like a matchbox. and i got up and i was gonna tie her up like but and by gosh i thought i'd better make for the door again. and there was a lot of space between the hut and the door and the wind took me and flung me right up against the tank and i went down to the ground and crawled on me hands and knees. i didn't go out again. i remember before that the wind changed pretty suddenly from southwest to nearer west i think and i'd made a new hen house i thought indestructible. and we had sixty pullets at the point of lay in this house to be moved out from the house to a field. and we were standing on the end of the house and i thought i had nothing to tie that down with but there were concrete blocks there i had a pile of those in the corner and well it took the whole blooming thing. and minced the hens up with the blocks. oh it was terrible. and it let an old house alongside with nothing in it and hardly a door on it and that stood right alongside of that one and it must have been like a comb it just must have gone in strips the gale for that house was now twelve foot away from the other one. and why did that one stand and the blocks in in this one and the hens and everything. so that was disaster. were you married then? mhm mhm. did you have a young family as well? yes and we took the whole thing down to the kitchen for the upstairs rooms were just going like this. and when we were down in the kitchen the partition between the butt and the bairn as they called it was going like that inside of the house in the gale. and it ripped about a quarter of the roof off before it finished and the slates but er still good. oh it lifted huge stones you know it wa it was incredible. were the bairns frightened? well some of them i suppose slept over it. what? yes. but i certainly did not. and when it daylight came the next day next morning you could hardly believe it you could hardly see rousay for the foam that the gale kick up like a thick fog. the had risen in the air and i never want to see the like again. it must have done an awful lot of damage everywhere else too. oh it did that all right. and some of that hen houses blew right on the sea. not our our owns but erm other people and they could see them the next day when the steamers went to the north isles for the er the cockerels or the hens sitting on the top of them. and they could do nothing to save them. did the steamers go the next day? well yeah the wind fell but i'm not really sure whether they went the next day or the day after that i can't remember. oh it took some sorting out on the next morning. and you see all the crop had vanished over the night. and they had to import hay and straw and goodness knows what. did the council have to set up some sort of emergency system? er yes i think they did but er we reckoned we lost about eight hundred and fifty pounds worth of gear. fifty or sixty pound worth of that but which was nothing. were folk insured for that kind of thing then or well no really some of them were not. what about livestock would they have been in at that time of year? oh yes. oh some of the roofs sort of and that were peeled off no bother. was there any loss of life? no funny to say. had it been in the day time i'm sure there would have been lives lost for they wouldn't have stayed in to seen their stuff go under. going for the wind. thing about boats you know you were speaking about the steamer coming back and forth to wyre, but what kind of a boat service was there local boat service. cos if the steamer only came once a week that wouldn't have been enough. oh that was about the lot er we had. if you wanted to go to kirkwall you had to cross to the rousay pier and then either hire a car or walk to and get across with tom . erm that was in the early days charley and tom did the crossing there for the mails and early in nineteen fifty one no fifty five that we took over the mails. and we before that we made quite a few runs to kirkwall with a that was a small one that we had and erm you had to get the bus from evie of course to kirkwall and back the same way. back along with the back to what you would call the sea crossing er to and get on to the rousay pier then and get a dinghy or something and row across to wyre. did you start doing a passenger service when you got the mail contract or did you to the mail just on its own first or did you no we did we did passengers before the mails. we used to run direct to kirkwall via and erm it was then that the post office caught hold of us and wanted us to take on the mails. so how did you work that was it er sort of round like egilsay or did you no no the first mail run we had was just merely from to rousay to collect the rousay mails and dump them at the rousay pier and they were sorted in rousay for egilsay and wyre besides that. and as we were coming home from rousay pier we met the wyre post boat coming across for the mails that we already had dumped in rousay. and egilsay crossed to the school just there yes . er they crossed there to for the mails for years and years. and you said you met the wyre post boat coming back so you didn't as we went back to wyre home to wyre we could meet the wyre post boat coming across for the mails that we put to rousay. they had to go and collect the mails. well you see they had the mail er contract on wyre long before we start. but it finally ended up that we had the whole thing rousay egilsay and wyre. so did you do a passenger service direct to kirkwall calling at egilsay and rousay? er yes just er no really a service it was more hires than anything else. just er for the business. oh so that so the passenger service it it wasn't actually a a daily passenger service like it is now then? oh no no no. well we went every day on about the mail so it was a passenger service that really started off in nineteen fifty five but we bought maybe in nineteen fifty three or fifty four. we had to run direct to kirkwall quite a lot then. when did the bus service start to then? oh it was a while after we start. actually it not that long ago. but a few years now. well what did folk do when they got to then? oh well bob had a mini bus that he went with and picked up the passengers. and of course he died and i think there was no bus then? no. they only thing they could do was to go walk up to walk up a road to and contact the evie bus but it didn't come down along for years and years. and then er tom retired and he used to run the bus long after we start the mails and then he retired and er the bus service to come down along and pick up the passengers and that was how it start. there was tom running a passenger service at the same time as you were doing the mail? mhm and he lost the mails in nineteen fifty five. he packed up the mails and er tackled the to have a go. and we were not too keen on it at that time but had been all right. so are there two boats going every day then? well yes there would nearly two going every day indeed. did you take supplies and things as well then? mhm. i took our tin of bread across for donkey's years. what happened in the days before freezers i mean well like going back to this you know when folk didn't have power. things wouldn't have kept what you would have had a totally different kind of eating habits? well i suppose more salted meat i mean more home home butching and erm making bread i suppose or the womenfolk were likely baking every day. it must be totally different now i i know that in places like hoy that just used the freezers all the time. yes mhm. even with our daily transport mhm. oh yes we yeah we use a freezer too. we took in and for and still use it. i thought plenty believe in fresh meat and that. i suppose fresh meat is better but you're only suppose to keep a certain time anyway even in the freezer. what about fishing? when you were younger in wyre, how did folk make a living? oh plenty of porridge and milk and er oh there was no much money to be made i mean and there was a lot bigger population then than what it is now. you said about the hens making a lot, how did how did they work that as an industry with the eggs and things how did they collect and work? we had a oh nearly a dozen cases of eggs dozen sometimes for some farms. and it was a big business and tons of feeding stuff. for every ton of feeding stuff then there maybe a hundredweight now coming ashore. it was what happened? well imported eggs i suppose. irish eggs and goodness knows whatnot. oh and there's factory farming this er big business. i guess it flawed the lot of it. you could always tell a deep litter egg. oh absolutely. it stank and it was dark orange. yes. you could tell a broiler what they call them er fowls. that was absolutely white compared with a fully range fowl. i mean that's the meat. oh that's just no so good. there must have been a big business even when the deep litter started cos i can remember the farm next door to us working a deep litter. mhm. and they had hundreds and hundreds of hens in deep litter and they seemed to be making a lot of money out of it. oh they would yes. oh they and i guess it set a few farmers on his feet. but it didn't last. what happened with the egg packing station? oh well it just packed up you know no eggs and that was that. there were two packing stations at one time. one down at here and er where was the other one or the down the road here. that was a fairly big one and i think there may have been one at stromness too. oh it had washing machines and goodness knows whatnot auto what's automatic feeders and such likes. what sort of prices did folk get for eggs then? oh i can't remember that. mm. was it the the women's business really? well up to a point indeed but er the men would er help out i doubt. i always seem to recall the women up to their elbows in freezing cold water washing. washing eggs? mhm. oh yes. and plenty got this egg wash you see. and just filled a net basket of eggs and put it down in the in the water and the water flowed through it kind of. possibly possibly with a pump i don't know. but it would be better if it did not need washing. the egg was actually the eggs would keep better washed. oh why's that then? well i think it broke the seal in the wash and er which was good get them as they were laid they were okay. keep the nests clean but that was no good to do either so. sometimes the hens would start eating them and break the eggs oh what a mess. when they changed the deep litter did it erm i've heard folks say that it actually affected the hens that they that they went cannibal and oh yes oh they would do that all right. they started pecking one another and it was a job to get them stopped. yes it's funny to think of hens having feelings but i suppose being cooped up like that it did affect them. oh aye it must have done mhm. see they got on the lights so long of the day in the winter time and made them lay just like as if it'd been summer. well that was the idea of the mhm. deep litter. mhm mhm. old one old ones just used which was at the bulb in every hen house and it was free range and i think there was nothing better than that. and they would lay just when and collect them eggs that night afore the gale. it was i just heard about erm, i mean i don't mind no i think i put your ideas up cos i wanna get that done, bit er i'd be perfectly happy if that was er right, no problem, jolly good, erm this one er what's, what's going on, he said well what i been called for mhm have them turned on, er and that's it, well this school and he's asked to put another one on, for this morning no, no i said er,if we get the rest up we'll in the vicinity was obviously not unusual well i suggest we have a bit beautiful a bit chilly the weather might there's better for your yes good i know i just i don't know why it's too much coming her to discuss yeah and they just drum it in wants to know, i know what he's when he, when he or that is, well it's central well i hope we will get something mm, mm and that's been right, i've got you you know he borrowed the hairbrush from me, he brought it back in this did he? would you rescue it for me? yes it would be a it should stay clean when ah, yeah are you sure? yes right probably today i ought to start moving the erm, the electrics into the strong room, into here yeah, be alright. is that alright? yeah, fine so that i take there's a lot of work to do mm, mm, well, erm, well, what'll, tomorrow? tomorrow i can do it yeah, erm, i'll put some about half ten yeah, today? tomorrow tomorrow , right so what if yeah, that'll help right, got me gotta stop at half past ten ah, i'll give you a shout yeah and go straight in excellent okay okay er does it want to be yes, yes it does yeah, for both of us? right, the control panel erm sort of built in and erm sixty watt, two hundred and sixty watt from well if you get three amps we can have that er, that manage it to go from yes yes, i'll put that one down, i'll put that one down, there, i've got er i've got to clear up erm can we start off with your name? it's william isn't it? william aye. and you're a retired farmer? i'm no ret well aye, yes. how old are you mr ? seventy two. seventy two. and this is an uplands farm? no this is . aha, but it's upland? oh well, more or less. and have you stayed er in all your days? all my days. when did you first encounter tinkers? oh i'd oh i'd be about three year old. they, you see to, they used to have a, they used to camp at the very top of the hill up there. mhm. and, and they used to draw in there. were they in tents? no, caravans. caravans. horse. with a horse? aye. what year would this be oh it would be just, just about the start of the first world war. aye, and what were their names? well, there used to be a lot come up from kendal. aha, down in cumbria. aye, there was er a billy , a harry , and er there was another lot come, i c i just can't remember their name but after the first world war this billy used to come round this part and collect cast horses. you know, buy cast horses. and he used to walk them all the way, i remember once him starting out er from what we call hole, that's at the top of the hill there, er starting out to walk them to newcastle, and he took eleven. it er er he pleated the he the halter into the tail of the leading horse and he took them down the road in a string like a train. and i remember him once leaving up there with eleven. was that one of the main reasons that they started coming here for the horses? well no no they came here before that. you see they used to come around and they they, they er the kendal ones used to sell baskets and basket chairs and, and a lot of kind of er stuff made with and then that they made themselves? that's right. and then there was another lot came. they were tinsmiths. and who were they? now wait a minute. er were they scottish at all most of them? aye. aye they, they belonged to about i think they came from. they wouldn't be paul ? oh they, now they could've been . and they used to make what they called chappens that was, that was a, a tin jug. aha. that er and they called them chappens aye, they used to er kind of chapping tin. aha,. and, and er and then there was there was other ones made clothes pegs and and er well they all, they all had a kind of trade. aha, but you know they weren't begging, they all did something? oh no no no no, far from it. aha. i remember once, they used to be at 's. mhm. and i remember once old used to gather sacks, ken bags and, and he went to, and i remember one night he come, he'd been round the country hawking and he come home. mhm. and er, wife had er, what they call the cheety boxes. you ken what they are? no. well cheet cheety boxes are three s bits of iron, with a chain in the middle that hung over a fire you see? aha. and of course she had the pan on right. when old come home and he just, the old wifey broke the eggs into the pan and threw them onto the plate for aha. and he just halved them did he stay in a caravan? until he, he ate a whole dozen eggs. in one go? aye. could you describe er the, the tinsmiths? what, what were they like? to look at? there, there was one deaf and dumb mhm. and well they used to make, and they made these they made kind of lots of tin things you know like different sizes and i cannae just describe what they, there was one had big whiskers down his face but er the rest was clean shaven, you ken. and these, you think they came from , the . i think they came from . and did they camp up the hill as well? up there, they all camped up, i'll tell you i've seen sixty aha. there on a sunday. caravans? no no, individuals, oh there might have been five or six or maybe eight caravans. were there any with tents? no, not then, they all had cara well they used to have wee things they could stick on a a cart, a kind of bow shaped thing. aha, and you ken they used to lift it off and put it in the ground. mhm. but er oh they, they used to be ,, er and what do you call the other ones that come ? mhm. er now just let me think. , there was another lot came from . from ? aye. there's still some of these live in . mm. and in fact there's one that, a daughter of one, lives up way somewhere. did any of them have tents like that one? this one? have you ever seen tents like that round about here? well i'm telling you they stuck it they had a sort of flat bottomed cart and they used to stick it in and when they came there they, they lifted it off and stuck it in the ground and it was just similar to that only it was hooped aha. like that. aha. aye. mm. but of, of course the motor car all, all i'm describing what it was like in the horse days. aha. and th this, this er harry , he, he came from the area, er he always, he was a great basket maker mhm. and he made baskets and, and these kind of basket chairs and mhm. stuff like that, and they used to make them through the winter and come up here in the summer and sell them. was it onl only the summer that they oh yes. the tinkers came? aye, they only came in the su they only came up here in the summer. yeah, and how long did they stay for, the whole summer? oh they've, i've seen them staying maybe three month. and they were always friendly? oh yes very friendly, no bother. no bother at all, except what except there was one, er that fell out with my father once erm jackie . mhm. that's the only one that ever i remembered but they were all, and they you know they, they used to graze their horses up there in that field up at the top, and this billy that used to go round all the district and, and buy up all these old cast horses and bring them up there until he had a consignment gathered up. and they used to go to belgium, they, they er walked them through to get a boat at newcastle and they used to got to belgium for to sell the horses? horse meat. mhm, oh i see, he sold them and them they were shipped across. aye, shipped across, he, i don't know whether he billy they called him, he, he, he wasn't very tall, but ooh he was a wiry character, could walk, walk a hundred miles in a day almost . did they ever go for wool from the sheep? oh yes, oh there, aye there was, ah but these this lot that i'm telling you about they were more or less traders. aha. but they used to get the, the, the odd ones that used to come and gather s what we call hiplocks again that was the dirty wool off the sheath pin, sounds like that. and they would wash it, and then sell it? aye, that's right. and then they used to get , they used to be in jackie , he always gathered bags and what type of bags? oh any type of bag. and he used to wash them all, and, and er you know the manure fertilizer came in jute bags then mhm. and er he used to, he had a contract with some big potato firm and he used to buy all the, the fertilizer bags in the locality and he used to bring them there to the end of the road and he used to wash them in the burn. and he, he got a good price for them with them being washed for to put potatoes in. he, he went to america, in fact his widow was over it'll be about two years ago and she came and seen us, and she remembered er me as, as a, she was eighty six. i think it's eighty six, and er she remembered me as a, as a, as a little boy when jackie used to wash his bags down here. she remembered me coming down to the burn and tramping the bags in the the , help to wash them. could you pass over the book again please? at the back it's got er you know a glossary of . oh yes. have you heard any of these words being used for the side of things by the, the tinkers? dickety gadgy aye. aye, i've heard that. it's just that some of these words say they, they might have used them, i mean i've done the and the ones but i've never come upon anyone that's heard of the, the cant. er and maybe the way they said it. aye gr well i've heard of the , a guffy that's what they used call ham. guffy ah bit of, i've had a bit of guffy what like, they call, the ones call a, a pig a grumfy a grumfy aye, well they call it a guffy here er you see, you see this apron aha. well, they used to call it a dadely did they? aye. ah the professor here's from er the newfoundland university studied all the dialects in great britain. did they? and they discovered that the most expressive dialect in britain was in galloway. and they sent that's right. and they sent a, a professor over here to study it. aha. and he was here. when, the, the true gallo galloway er way of speaking, that's correct. i mean they have words that strudes aye. are very old shoes apparently. aye, aye. it was, we call them squarks squarks aye. no but, erm he, he says to me he says, have you any expressions that you, you think's very expressive? and i says, yes, i says, i've dozens of them. and er he says, what is it? i says, well, i says, i was reading a book and an old wifey that lived up at and she was about ninety six, and this chap that was interviewing her, well he wouldn't be interviewing her but he said she sat by the fire and she hostied and clochered until she nearly spewed. that's marvellous. and er of course another a another er expression was the wee boch'll come helshing down the street. you ,helshing what was the well kind of with a limp. oh right aye. aye. aye. shanners shanners have you heard that meaning bad? no. no. shan gadgy aye,sh , aye well i, i'd s i'd say to you there to start with dickerty gadgy do you ken what that means? erm that was that was tinker language again. erm the gadgy's man. that's right. dickert look at. look at, aye that's correct, look at the, look at the man. and, and a, there used to be an old fisher wife, old mary . she come here, she used to come here with her man, you ken they were tramps, but er she, she was a great one, she used to, she belonged to the west highlands, and she was a great one for quoting the, the kind of tinker tinker. yeah. but to be quite truthful as i've said to the boys, when i'm away all this is lost. what i, what i li what i, what i knew about tinkers and, and that, cos there's nobody, there's nobody has any experience of what it was like. there's very few folk left that can remember the, who the tinkers used to come up there and it won't be lost now. oh well i hope not. because all my tapes go into the archives of the department of scottish studies at oh yes. edinburgh university, they'll take copies of them and keep them there for ever as a sort of reference museum. i've got it, aye. so you're, you're on there. er you see when i was, this would just be at the start of the first world war, oh damn i haven't put a switch in have i? no it's alright. and er i remember they use to bring cocks with them and have cock fights. i've heard about a cockatoo but you're talking about the hens cockerels. ah no no, domestic a dom domestic bird, what they call game, fighting game. and i remember when i was a nipper, er er being up there and they had, they always had a box in the back of their caravan where they kept two or three hens, and, and, and er they used to have this game bird. it was a what they call the fighting game, or something to that effect and er the the i remember once i he seeing them having a cock fight. oh boy it was great. were they putting money on it? oh oh now i don't know whether i wasn't to th er remember whether they gambled on it or not but mhm. i remember them once having a, a cock fight. and this was where, just in the just over the, no at the top of the hill. aye. you, you, you come over the hill? that's right. aye. well you know where the,th there's an old road goes up this way. aha, aha. and over by the quarry. yeah. well there used to be a house there. aha, and it's muddy, there's no signposts it's just no no no. that's right, well that's where it, and they drew up that old road, with their caravans you see. oh i see. and they just put them, they just stayed there ? oh yes, aye. there used to be a house there. and where did they go, or did, i mean oh they went, they went to the ones they used to go away to and and castle . hawking as we called it, called it. what about the ones from and ? ah well th th they, they were more or less gatherers, you ken they gathered hiplocks and mhm. er scrap and stuff like that. and sold them? aye. where would they sell scraps er round about here? well they used to se they used to take it to a, a man called in . mhm,? aye. that's where they used to,they bought fallen skins and off rabbits ? oh any kind of skins they bought. of what, what did they do with hem? oh well th they, they seemingly sent them away by rail somewhere. rabbit skins and stoat skins and stoat skins? aye. this is about nineteen eighteen? yeah, aye, just after the first world war. aye. aha. and that's when, you see during i can just remember previous to the war them coming there and then of course during the war there was very very few of them on the road then and then after the war they started to come back and that's when this billy and harry and that came up from the side. after the end of the first world war and when the motor car came in did they still come along on horses? oh yes, aye for a year or two but then you see they all got into kind of motor cars what, when would have that, can you remember oh that would be about the nineteen thirties. and they had cars at that time? aye. beginning of the nineteen thirties. cos at that time only sort of wealthy people might have had cars, is that oh still, i remember that jackie , er he bought an old car in and er for scrap like, and he brought it up and he broke it up up there and it was a and it was made in , this car. and i remember this jackie , and it, it had a most peculiar starting mechanism ever i've seen. mm. there was like a prawl in the flywheel, and you pulled a lever like that and it, there wasn't a connection on to the, like on to the crankshaft with a starting handle, this thing was on the flywheel and it was like a lever aha. and it, and it pulled it over and cranked it. it's only time ever i've seen that. amazing. what were some of the, the tales you were gonna tell me about what you'd heard? oh well as i er, as i was saying about th this aunt that stayed with me, er she once er saw a, well i don't know whether she actually seen it or not, but she'd seen the results of it, of a tinker's divorce, and this man killed this horse and threw his wife on top of it and that was him divorced. did he shoot the horse? no i think he cut its throat. no i couldn't tell you much about it. aha, this was your aunt? an old aunt that stayed with me. and you were a young lad when she told you this? oh aye, oh aye, oh she'd er she'd er told this she told this . what was her name? her first name? sarah. sarah? aye. did she stay up here? aye she stayed here. and, and well i remember once there were a whi a few of the men went away to and they got over the stick, you understand what that means? got drunk , and they came up and oh what a row. up, up there. aye. it was like a, it was like a waterloo. and then there was er this they called this one. er this fellow come up fair blue devil go drinking, er he hadn't a, he hadn't, she hadn't his tea ready and he lifted the kettle and he hit her in the mouth with it and oh boy oh boy she'd a mouth like dixie lid. ken what a dixie lid is? no. you ken your wee dixie's that you for your grub. aha. i think, yeah. and then you eat it. aye, that's right, you eat dixie. mhm. and she'd to go to , to get her into the pony and cart and get her away to to the doctor's and get it stitched and, oh boy. there you saw, and that that wasn't regular, i mean they weren't fighting ? on no no no, no no, oh no, oh they were very, very very, docile you ken, never interfered with nobody or nothing and the funny thing, you know they all get blamed for poaching and that, but that was one thing they may, may poach but never here. mhm. if they wanted to poach they went away somewhere else. excuse me but did ? no they never poached locally, mhm. if they wanted to poach they went away. when, when did they stop coming here? ah well the motor car did away with it. aha. away with it. all that's, you see there's, there's a few comes at the, even at the present moment, there's some come down from every year. what are they called? . and they still come down with a van yes. to that same site? no no they come down into the corner of the field here in place. aha. and they stay there. and what do they do? oh well they paint sheds and they ask you for work that's right. chop wood and aye aye. tar the road or something. ah well no they didn't, but they paint and, and th gather scrap and things like that. so they're still coming ? oh they still come. do these ones that came when you were a lad, did they a a actually do work on the farm? ah well, you know when the , they used to come and give a, give a hand. and they got paid? never got paid. money never conspired between them, between, they just all would come down and give you a hand and that was it. i suppose they might have got water or something? oh well, they got staying on the place and, oh that money never, er was never asked for money for . was that, was that your land? aye aye, and my father's anyway. aha, right up to the, right over, well it used to be er start two fields off . mhm. and you know where is, no you'll not. i've got a map, i think,? it's, aye just get it out and i'll let you see. well you see i had here well i, i, this is, this is a fell and this is here. well i start about here, mhm. and i went right to there. mm. go right round about the loch. you see i used, used to have east and west of ,,, farm as well? aye, farm, and . you had all that? had all that. how many acres is that? oh about twelve hundred and fifty. now of course i, i've given it nearly all away. ah well i got the bloody fright of my life once. when i was in seeing the the banker, and he said to me he said, have you, have you a will made? says i, no. he says, well it was time you were thinking about it. and i says, why? and he says, you know, he says, if you die tomorrow, he says, they'll clean the boys out in death duties. so says aye, it's time i was getting something done. so i just, it used to be, you see that it used to be w g and sons. mhm. that's when we all got together aha. but then you see i put wal out on his own, and john out on his own, and, and the . aha. so you see i'm only left with the . but i was gonna tell you about there was one day i was at for money and i'm coming up the road, and here this chap was standing in the road and er kind of thumbing a lift, so i says to him, i stopped and i often lift people in the road but er after he got into the, i had an old bradford van at the time, and he said er, i said to him, i says, are you on a hiking holiday? oh no, he says, er, he says, i'm not on a hiking holiday, he says er, i'm just back from iceland. he says, i'm an archaeologist. mm. you see, and i says, oh man that's exactly the very man i want to get into contact with. so of course i told him about, you see we, we'd lowered the level of the loch at the , took four feet of it, you see and it revealed this thing in the loch. so everybody was telling me about this so i went away over and had a look at it. and i said, my god, i says, this is something very ancient. and i says, it's an old lake dwelling, and er of course i mentioned it to this chap, just switch it off the now. the oldest plough in europe was was found? the oldest plough in europe. let me see, ah this is it. here it is, right enough. aye, this is, this is it. and, and you see your thanks are due to a mr william . ah did you get a mention? the proceedings of the society of antiquities antiquities. nineteen fifty two to fifty three. that's right. page one three four. i'll have a look at that then in er, one of the libraries. aye, and er you see i used to go over, i used to go over on a sunday, when they came, if you, on the er well you see as i told you this chap here. that you picked up? aye i picked up, wait a minute. right. ah here he is. mr david . , bamburgh college, cambridge, now that's the chap i lifted when you were for a lift, giving a lift on the road. he was going to , he was going to ireland, to some excavations there. mm. and er i picked him, i picked him up in the road and you see i just told him, i says oh i says, you're the very man i'm, i'm looking for. he's the last person you'd be thinking you'd be picking up. aye. excuse me. and he, and he and of course he was fair amazed. oh he must have been. and he says, oh, he says, you know it, it, you see we had some old boards that we took out and could walk across onto it. and er, he says er, he, he, he got a a got him across onto it, and he never spoke, and he walked round about it about three or four times and he s turned around to me and says, well, well, well. he says, here's something, he says, we, we've been looking for for years and here's me stumbling on it accidentally. he says, i'll have to let professor know. aha. well that was on a tuesday i believe the letter's on the desk there. and er i had a letter back on the friday from stuart to say er according to mr 's description it was very interesting and could i possibly meet him at station on the saturday morning. so of course i went away down to the station and the folk came off the edinburgh train and that, and this gentleman and lady were left and of course i approached them, i says, by any chance, i says, are you professor . he says, oh yes, you'll be mr . i says, i am. and er he says er he says, you know i'll have to get somewhere to stay, is there anywhere where i could stay? oh, says i, aye, i says, you could stay in the village. i says, they have a hotel there, so i brought them up to the hotel and took them, he went in and he made arrangements to stay there and then i took them over and let them see this lake dwell this crannagh as they call it. and then they sent their students down from edinburgh university to to excavate it. no they were there for oh maybe eight or ten weekends, excavating. where did they stay? well some of them stayed in , and this book's got the a bit of the worse for the wear aye here it is you see. of course this was all photographed at the time, and they found the oldest plough in europe. can you tell us how you first became involved in the dispute? well i was working in the quarry, and er it's last march turned round and said he wanted a new implemented with a new miracle saw that he had bought and he didn't really give us much warning about what he was gonna do but all he said was that er he was gonna scrap our old bonus contract and implement a new one no matter what, and from various figures that were bandied about we all realized we were gonna back quite a lot worse off because of it. was the imple implementation of the bonus scheme at that time linked t to the new s er the new saw table? i i think so. it was partly with the new saw table and also he wanted to try and get more er sellable saleable product out of the slate, cos previously we had been throwing away quite a bit or giving it to and i think it really started as a family argument between him and his brother. in , his brother in law in you know and er he was somewhat hurt that his brother in law will was getting a tremendous share of small blocks and he wanted to make more money out of them. h how did it become apparent that the new erm bonus scheme was going to operate to your disadvantage? well we certainly saw it as a disadvantage, he thought we'd be er very well off with it. i think er through the figures that he was producing we all realized something was up and various computers flying around the place you know, and the figures produced by them. that's you know it was all purely hypothetical the figures they produced but er they were comparing it to what we had pr previously been producing we all sort of realized that for a set production figure we could have been up to forty pound worse off, per week. c can you give me some idea of er the level of erm i'll call it education, the level of education people that were working er about the bonus scheme that er well i i think er it's it's quite hard to to talk about it but er cer i th i think people were grieved that the bonus system that had been going since the quarry was started up again by 's father was gonna be scrapped with really no consultation with the workers if you like, and i think everybody thought that you know we'd been producing a lot of slate and been paid well for it previously and he should leave well alone. you know both sides were very happy you know it was up with the company or down with the company you know, and i think certainly the younger lads sort of saw it as an infringement upon their future, you know we've all got mortgages and the o older men who'd been working since the quarry started you know were gonna see a drop in their standard of living, so i think you know people were getting a bit upset you know that a n a new fella h a new face had come in, and all of a sudden you know changes were being made that were gonna hurt everybody financially. was the the of the new bonus scheme the only cause for unrest at that time? i think so yes, yeah. yeah, i i can't think of any other things that you know that would have led to us sort of withdrawing our labour,e everything else could've settled amicably or through discussions with the union. no i think it was purely the financial aspect of the thing. when it became clear t to you that the bo the new bonus scheme was not operating to your advantage, how did you go about representing your feelings to the quarry owners? i think almost daily there were discussions between our two shop stewards and the quarry owners about you know, levels of production, expected targets, increase in production and all this, and er i think you know through those daily discussions we made our side of the argument known and we we told him that we'd work to rule if things weren't proper and if we didn't like it. i it's just the attitude about th the way he went about the whole thing. that's what upset us most. you know it seemed to be that we had a working rule that had functioned reasonably well over the years and all of a sudden he was tearing up various paragraphs that didn't suit him, and altering bits you know and changing them round just to suit the company, and all to our disadvantage. er you v vindicated that you were in fact talking on quite a sophisticated level with the quarry owners in the sense that you were able to break up your argument into various categories as as you've said. how how was this sophistication accepted by the quarry owners? erm well a at one time, when we put various arguments to him, he just turned round and decided that everyone over sixty would be surplus to requirements and er and sent down the road if you like. well you know we weren't too impressed with that and the next day he took that back and re-employed them. but er no it seems strange you're dealing with a man who's got your future in his h in his hands, yet he can turn round and do stupid things like that, and totally just disregard the human aspect if you like. you mention the fact that er you were talking to a new manager or relatively new, erm had w was the trouble if you like in any way related to the appointment of this new manager? well, i i was fairly new in the company myself so i hadn't worked for his father for long before took over the managership or chairmanship or whatever he is, so i i'm really not too sure about the whole thing but certainly for a quarry manager or quarry director or owner, he didn't really know the slate as well as the workers, and he was expecting things out of his workers and the slate, the product, that were really just not on. you know, it couldn't be you know w we we couldn't produce what he wanted, and certainly the material wasn't there for the things he wanted to do, and yet he seemed to assume that he knew everything and wouldn't take any advice from the experienced men in the quarry. was was any attempt made by the the experienced men the one who the ones who understood the rock and been in the presumably been in the industry was there any attempt by them to ed educate him well i i think er he's of the age where he was unwilling to learn. he thought that modern techniques could be put to use, where in some cases they'd been tried and failed beforehand. i mean he went off to italy and bought at great expense a wire saw,have had a wire saw for years and that hasn't proved successful. okay in italy on the marble it does work, but on the slate it you know it it hasn't worked and i think various quarries have tried it and found out that it doesn't work, and yet he assumed that he knew better and you know,little little things like that, you know he just seemed unwilling to learn or lis heed advice. was was there any sort of attempt to er acquisition of expensive equipment now, was there any attempt made to gain the er the knowledge of the workforce on what would be suitable machinery to buy? well i suppose he might have asked some of the fitters, but i doubt it somehow seeing some of the acquisitions that he made from llanberis when they were closing down there. and he probably asked the quarry manager and the under manager there. i know the under manager went off to italy to look at this saw. but er he never asked me, put it that way, what i thought was suitable machinery and he, as far as i know he never asked other rock men what they thought was suitable for the rock and other slate makers what they thought was suitable for inside the mill, or the diamond saw operators, what sort of saws they thought were the best. if you had've been asked, would you for what he actually bought? certainly the saw he bought for the mill i think that has great prospects and you know there's no two ways about it, it could help production and ease the work of the workforce. sort of in conjunction with that, that has to go you know i has to be tied in with a bonus contract that suits the workforce. and you know, no two ways about it that saw was definitely a a good acquisition. but various other bits of machinery which are now lying idle around the quarry probably would've been better left in italy or spain or wherever they were acquired from. w was there a feeling when the this this saw table was acquired,d did you have any feeling that it was a way of controlling the wages? no i don't think so. no. i in what way? in the sense that production could be upped but your level of income wouldn't not be permitted t to rise,. oh yeah,i in that way er certainly when he produced the bonus contract to go with the saw table, you know we w that was fairly plain, that production would have risen in his estimates quite considerably, and yet our wages in fact would have dropped quite considerably so, yes i mean er it didn't seem quite to tally in the way we would have like to have seen it. d c c could you have visualized any way in which production could have been controlled apart from his down about a certain amount? well there's a physical limit to how much we could produce in a an eight hour shift and all the slate makers were adamant that the figures he reckoned they could produce and what they reckoned they could produce you know they were totally different. so i mean there is a limit to how much we can earn, you know bonus-wise. so i i do don't think he could control it that much. but what we realized was that even if we hit his estimates we were still gonna be worse off. after you'd been erm in daily discussions w with the management, when did it occur to you that things w just not gonna happen? well i it was i'm not quite sure we we got the other two quarries in the company, in the group of companies, together and told them our problems, and they said right okay fair enough, we'll help you. and i think it was, we were willing to go back to work and carry on discussions, albeit without earning any bonus because we were working to rule at the time, but it was what happened in er the quarry that really started the strike, when he laid the workforce off because they were helping us, or joining us in sympathetic action, you know there was a lockout up there, so i think that speeded up things considerably. we all thought right okay, we'll get out for a few days and matters'll come to a head, get sorted out and we'd be back at work, happy as anything you know, everything sorted within a couple of weeks. unfortunately it was not to be. what w ho wh was the reaction when you decided you would work to rule? erm, the management certainly weren't too impressed,which is understandable. but on the other hand, we were only working to rule, we were working by rules and regulations laid down from various acts and negotiated er agreements. but erm certainly we were a lot worse off, cos we we were just earning a day rate, instead of any bonus you know we had no bonus at all. so yeah we all thought, we'll work to rule a couple of weeks, things'll get sorted and we'll all be back to normal. you said that the other t t two quarries were sort of l l l linked er with you. how did you how d how did it arise that there was this degree of cooperation? well i think there were niggling little points in all the quarries, the workforce certainly hasn't been happy up in for a long time. in i think things have ticked over er various little things have been sorted but all internally without resorting to outside help. and because each of the directors seems to have a share in the brother's or brother in law's concerns you know we all thought right, if they're gonna play the game together, we'll play the game together, and see what happens. and you know when after we had withdrawn our labour, then various things arose in that needed sorting out, and the bonus system there, if we thought ours was unfair, their's was totally out the window. at least we were earning some money, and they were ending up owing the company money i think. was the the degree of cooperation, was it was it on an informal basis or was it er through the transport and general that you got together? erm, we called a lodge meeting before the annual leave, annual shutdown, and in that lodge meeting all three quarries agreed to go on a work to rule as from the resumption of work, which is second week of august. i can't remember in fact if there was a transport official there. i suppose there must have been but i can't remember. so i i think it started on an informal basis, you know everyone was just a little bit fed up with the way they're being treated and the way you know been told how much we could earn, how we could earn it, when when we could earn it and all this sort of palaver. so it started informally. what was what was the expectation if any er at that time regarding the effect of your action? well i think it the they've small workforces in each of the three quarries, i think there are twenty in , and twenty odd in and we thought well twenty men aren't really gonna hurt the quarry the companies, the group of companies that much, because slate will still be produced in the other two. so if we can hurt them or certainly gang together if you like, cos unity is strength, and between the three workforces they'll certainly slow down production and hopefully force things. lodge, was there any erm were there any individuals who were particularly keen and had an idea of what they wanted and and who were who were who were obviously older and more organized than the others i think at the onset we all thought, it's not gonna last long you know a couple of weeks at the most. i remember coming home and discussing with my wife that another friend that it'd only be a couple of weeks and we'd be back to work. no i think at the onset we were all well we were all beginners at the game if you like. so there were no little budding little strike leaders or arthur scargills in the pack. so no i think er we all stuck it together at the start, not really knowing where it was gonna lead us. why do you think it didn't fail er early on as a strike, er a as the fact it was only predicted it would last two or three weeks but it was obvious at the time it was gonna go on. why didn't it fail? well, had we given in then god only knows what would have happened in both our quarry and the other two quarries. i'm sure the system would have been implemented in the quarry, and they would've suffered even worse than us. in their bonus would never have been sorted out. i think the whole idea of us managing to stick together for seven months, you know th the fact that we did, bar a few exceptions, you know it's it's amazing. with the help of the women. ho how in fact di di did you keep on go you said mentioned you were out for seven months. when it began to dawn that you were going to be out more than a fortnight or three weeks, did anything emerge that w that you can see was to keep you encouraged for that period? i think as soon as people from outside of the community, and the quarrying community, as soon as they started giving us support, telling us right, we'll help you, both financially and you know physically and what have you, you know the students, the women's support group, when things started getting organized. you know then we thought right, we're not just gonna forget about this you know, we'll we'll carry on for a little while longer and then as soon as the ball really started rolling, er personally i thought well you can't back down now,. how how many others do you think had the same reaction t t to you? erm certainly i think all of our quarry, the quarry, i think we were overwhelmed with the support because it was really in our place that the dispute started and a lot of other people who i'd spoken to you know they they were amazed at the support we received and, seemed to be the shyer the people you know the, some of the lads they never spoke much at lodge meetings, but after a while they'd be getting up and saying their pieces and, you know i think it's just because you knew you had backing, and people helping and urging you on, advising you, and the union helping and you know they leant over backwards in various fields to help us. as soon as we realized we had such tremendous support and you know er right we'll give this a go and we're gonna win. y you mentioned that the that it was a great encouragement to you to have outside support. did it have you any any idea why you had so much support, all all of a sudden? well, people that i spoke to, spoken to from cardiff, they they originally got involved because one of the lads used to work up in the factory, the chairman of their labour club, and after that i don't, politically you know it started off completely non political, but after a while people latched on to it as a dispute that could be won, and you know that would be one up for the workers and the country. unfortunately that wasn't to be, i er we came a good second but there you go. people latched onto it as something that wasn't a political strike, wasn't being led by militants, revolutionaries, what have you, and it was something, it was just for the freedom of the working man if you like, and his standard of living was not gonna suffer because of bosses intransig intransigence i'll say it right in a while,and what have you. no we we're not gonna suffer and we're gonna win, we can win. you mention the fact that erm there was a feeling that it was a s because of the size of the workforce, it was possibly a strike which could be won? yeah i think, small workforce, i mean twenty in our quarry, if one or two back to work that's not really gonna help the management. you know if you got five or six thousand and a few go back to work you know, they can start getting a production run going, but because of the nature of our work, everyone depends on everyone else. really needs the whole twenty men back to start viable production again. w was there a f a feeling during that period th you were going to win? oh yeah. yeah i was convinced we were gonna win. at the start, but as things went on, and just the fact that we never had any talks between the union and the management. the management ref refused to talk all the time and after a while it just got depressing, the fact that nothing seemed to be happening. how did you explain to your own s s satisfaction during those months that no talks were going on, that into into com into communicating with the quarry ? no, there was just nothing we could do. it'd got to the stage where the workforce were not gonna talk to the management on a an official level, you know we were still talking informally at the picket line and, you know still trying to be helpful and offer our advice on what could be done to solve the dispute. but you know further up the ladder, the union officials and what have you, it was just, they tried, the council tried and all this, and nothing seemed to happen. had there ever been a a feeling amongst the members of the lodge that erm that with this in increasing involvement with outsid outsiders, the local m ps, the ministers of religion, the er transport and general workers' union, et cetera, as well as coverage by h t v and the b b c that there would be a kind of accumulation of pressure and you would they would give in? yeah, yeah. we all assumed that because of the, yeah the media pressure, at least talks would start, but i think possibly the management thought that because of this one-sided pressure, you know it seemed at the time that nothing nice was being said about the management, you know you can almost understand them being reluctant to go into a room and offering their side of the argument. yeah i i think, had they given their side of the argument at the onset, then er things would've been different. but because they refused for one reason or another to dis you know to have talks with the press or television or the ministers, whoever, i think they they burnt their boats. at what point erm did i er did it become an official dispute,how how at the point of becoming an official dispute? i think when we were, as far as i can remember is when we were sent either letters of, letters to warn us that we were gonna be dismissed if we didn't turn up for work or either when we were dismissed. er from then on, you know, things were really put in put into action. was that, was that er on the basis of your acting c collectively as a as a lodge or was it again was it shop stewards who acted ? no, no i ever every decision was taken at the lodge, the shop stewards didn't run the strike between them and just inform us after every decision was taken by all fifty members at the start and forty members at the finish, and i'm you know i'm proud to say that everyone was part of what went on. and it wasn't just a few people leading others whichever way they felt was necessary. you know sure there were committees to manage either financial affairs, or various other bits and pieces that went on, but even then decisions they took were taken to the lodge to be voted on. so in a sense, everything that went on was was erm fully exposed in a sense, everyone yeah, yeah knew what was going on? i mean everybody knew what was going on, they might have had their own interpretations of what they'd been told, but that happens, and as i said you know, every decision was voted on by the full lodge of the three quarries. you know, the decision whether we were gonna go back to work because of these threatening letters was taken by the forty well fifty members of the lodge, so in effect i was sacked by people who had since returned to work, but you know that's how it should be. was there any feeling when these letters were received that they were to be taken seriously or they were in fact a bluff? erm, i think the wording of the letters was oh i was in repudiation of my contract well i dunno what what it means to repude some things,you know i jumped to get a dictionary and found out, but i really don't know what my contract was because i don't think we ever had any. but you know, certainly the way the letters had been written, and the fact that they became by recorded delivery, you know if it was a bluff, it was, certainly fooled me. what did you decide er as a as a lodge whe when these letters were received? to be honest i wasn't there, i was down at my sister's wedding. but from what i gathered erm yeah we were gonna carry on, we weren't gonna be forced back to work, cos had we gone back under their conditions, then god only knows what i'd be earning now. you know about twenty pound a week i suppose or something stupid. when er when the co when the strike began to get into into top gear, can you give me any idea of how as a lodge you were organized er picket duty? right. when when the strike first started, being in the summer months we needed quite a strong picket line to talk to the tourists, at various gates cos that was the main source of income at the quarry at that time. after the tourist season finished, and various cars were either written off or collapsed or whatever, you know whoever had a car was put forward as the picket you know er the leader of that picket er shift, and then it was just a question of working round. i think we had twelve or thirteen cars, so that was twelve shifts we could cover, we had three gates to cover cover, so and forty men, and just shared them out and that was all computerized, printed out, everyone had a copy, and on the whole it worked very very well. you know we managed to man the gates in working hours and forced the company to shift slate at ungodly hours in the morning, and i think people were impressed that we managed to stick it out. you know i think that's the one drawback of having a small workforce, the fact that if one sh picket didn't turn up, you know all of us on your th the force on the gate if you like was er a third of what it could've been. or a half. had you never er prior to this, had you ne had any experience of er none at all. none at all? none at all. what was it like the during the first times y you went on the ? it was it was fun when we first started, because the weather was nice, you know it was er you c take a thermos up and have a picnic and sit in the chair and read a book or whatever if there was no one around, but after a while when it became a duty, yeah it was hard work getting up on a winter's morning, knowing full well that you probably wouldn't see any cars if you down in until about ten in the morning, but you still had to be there at seven o'clock, and honking it down with rain or whatever. no it was it was hard work after then. in the erm in the early days, how did you how did you approach the people who were coming up up to the gate? i think from what i've heard, every shift had its own little methods of trying to turn people away or advising them not to come in. certainly we just told them what the problem was, told them that there was ever such a nice quarry further down the road if they wanted to visit a slate quarry. and for that i think are very thankful. . and er we were truthful, we tried to put our side of the argument, you know there were the few people who said, well i don't really care, and drove in. well you know, you win some you lose some. but every shift had its own methods. and i won't say any more than that. you you mentioned that er after the time presumably when the the winter began to come on, erm became more of a an obligation how did you keep motivated to turn up? i think it was just the thought that if one shift didn't turn up or if people stopped turning up, then others wouldn't turn up and it'd just escalate until everyone was just sitting at home in front of the fire and the quarries would function as normal, and the fact, well certainly with me, i thought well we have to make an appearance to show people that we are still on strike and keep, you know everyone who drives past us will be saying, ah hello what's up with them? they'll be reading about it in the paper then, trying to find out, spreading the word, and you know every every time someone drove past the picket line, there was a bit of bad publicity for the quarries and helpful for us. d d do you think your perspective was a commonly held one? no there were others who thought, sod it i'm not gonna turn up, you know, why should i? and i don't know, certainly the shift i was with were very loyal, always turned up and you know we ne we never had any problems. there were other shifts where various people after a while dropped out. but you know i think certainly the shift i was with you know i er i was impressed. the ones who erm who stuck it the ones who were always there, who always turned up, was there anything about them wh which could which could er er identify them as as people who were, was it age or ? no no i think there were all sorts, all ages, i i think just maybe some were more dedicated to the job and th certainly after a couple of weeks it wasn't family if you like you know, family in inverted commas, there . no i think just dedication and we, if we made an appearance maybe something would come to a head, things would get sorted, if we just said forget it then stay at home, then the quarry managers would say right forget it, we'll get another workforce in, you know it was, i think it was just i think some were dedicated to the job and sort of gave it their best, whereas others were slightly you know, willy nilly about it and well i'll turn up today cos it the weather looks nice, or i'll turn up today because the wife isn't off and or the gas has run out or whatever. ha during this erm this period what sort of business was being transacted in the lodge? erm well certainly tom would come up every every week, tell us what had happened, if anything. unfortunately most weeks nothing had happened. and quite often it er degenerated into an argument about picket duties. and the fact that quite a lot of people hadn't turned up on a certain day or that sort of thing. no i think it was just, certainly tom tried to lift us or because over the winter months when nothing was happening negotiations-wise, you know he knew if he didn't lift us then nothing would and everyone would get so disheartened they'd just say oh sod it and back to work or forget it and what have you. so er bu business-wise i don't think much went on but he's more of an uplifting experience was his er presence would you interpret his his presence as being fair fairly crucial for the continuing of the strike? whichever way i answer this erm it's gonna be . i think certainly we had to have a figurehead to relate to and in my opinion, tom was the best one to have there. you know when his boss came in then things went downhill but yeah certainly tom helped me and just the fact that there was someone there who knew exactly what was going on, be it not a lot but, he was trying to help us, and give us advice and what have you. you know i think he was fairly crucial to keep us all together. are you more say on a more personal level, was it at all obvious during the lodge meetings that people who were out people were out, were under pressure to go back? erm, i think at the back of some people's minds there was this pressure, you know that's why a few did return to work and i mean i can understand some of them returning to work but not necessarily for the reasons they've stated. erm i think they probably thought their jobs were at threat or the continuation of employment in their quarry and the quarry would shut down which manage management had certainly hinted at, yet which i considered to be a bluff, because no one 's gonna kill the goose that lays the golden egg. but in a lot of people's minds, no i don't think there was that you know that threat . there certainly wasn't in mine because i'd i'd been sacked. was there any sort of how can i put it, any sort of feeling that certain individuals in the lodge would go back to work? yeah i think at the onset of the strike there were a few people who were considered likely to be forced to get back to work or to go back to work, because of what they'd said, because of well just you know because of what they say in the meetings or because of what they didn't say in the meetings. you indicated that er in a sense the strike became well organized in the sense it had a great deal of support erm both moral and material and presumably financial . presumably. erm was there any w part of it of the strike organized in the sense of you giving moral support within the lodge to people who were obviously wavering? i think that's one of the reasons tom was there. you know he was always saying, well next week things might get better. so stick together lads just for another week, whatever we we do, if we go back to work or if we stay out, it'll be because of a unanimous vote or a majority vote in this lodge, you know w we came out together, we'll go back together or we'll stay out together. he didn't want to lose people by the wayside you know and i think that was the feeling of most of us. and that's what upset us most about these people going back to work, the fact that a meeting had been taken a few months before in which everybody had voted for us to get the sack, and then all of a sudden they had been threatened and no vote was taken on whether we should stay out or go back, and they just dribbled back to , that really knocked us i think. the ones who eventually return to work, were they in any sense identifiable as a a group? yeah i think they had their own little meetings in various pubs or whatever after our meetings, and certainly the management in one of the quarries seemed to have a lot of information about what went on in our lodge meetings because of various members of this clique,i think we were all fairly sure that they would be returning to work, it was just when that was the crunch. what was the feeling in the lodge when it eventually happened. erm, we weren't too impressed er to put it mildly. but on the other hand we thought i suppose oh good riddance you know er rather than have a few er namby-pamby people you know sitting on the fence, we might be better off without them. but i think the number that went back, you know because of the small workforce the fact that eight or nine returned to work, you know that was virtually half the workforce in one quarry, it made it quite awkward then. d did you decide er either formally or informally, to take a particular attitude towards the ones that had gone back? i think everyone's got their own ways of dealing with them, you know certainly some people ignore them, you know i prefer to ignore them rather than taunt them, er possibly because i wasn't really friendly with any of them that did go back, i think people who were close friends have found it very awkward and i know even now they're probably looking daggers at each other you know, that sort of thing. it certainly the community a bit because of them. did you do you think their their return to work was in any sense crucial to the outcome of the strike? oh yeah, yeah. i think had we managed to stick it together a bit longer, all fifty of us, and just prove to the management that we weren't gonna be starved back to work which seemed to be the way they wanted us to go back, you know because the board had you know escalated, you know i think had we managed to stick it together, certainly the result would've been different. i can't say what it would've been, you know what the outcome would've been but it would've been different. was there any was there any sense when when i suppose it's one fifth of the workforce returned, was there any sense do you feel er that you weren't going to win? no i think, i thought we still had a chance, albeit you know the odds had gone down a bit or increased, but er no i thought we still had a chance, it was gonna be harder because if we lost any more by the wayside then you know you're gonna be, it would've been very awkward. no i think we still thought we had a chance. you mentioned about erm not being starved back to work. erm which brings in the . oh yeah, brilliant. when first started, can you can you what you what you felt about it, what you thought it was going to do? well, i think some of the women and a lot of the men thought right well we'll just keep it you know between the men, it's our problem, we'll get it sorted. after a while we realized you know that's not on, it's impossible for us to sort this out you know we need help. i think the wives found it to their benefit to get amongst other wives who were sharing the same problems you know, how to pay the bills, how to buy food, and i think they seemed to get organized pretty well, they certainly helped us a hell of a lot. you know without the women's support group especially and without other support you know, we would've been starved back to work. was there any sense in which a there was a surprise at the reaction of the w women, that they first of all became very organized and were very organized and determined, so determined? well a at the start of the strike, my wife was just a little bit narked that i was out of work, but after a while when she fully understood the reasons, i think, i'd like to think that she was a hundred per cent behind me and the rest of us. and certainly by what she did with the women's support group i think she was. and cer the determination of the women, that we weren't gonna be starved back to work, we weren't gonna be forced back to work, we weren't just gonna end in chaos and some of us going back and some of us staying out, i think it was the women possibly talking to their husbands or, and just reassuring each other, you know that helped us no end. has erm as a lodge, did did you anything from the sort of organization the women had? oh yeah. i mean they outclassed us no question,no two ways about it , i dunno what it is. i hate to admit it in fact but er, no the way they got things organized, got lecture tours, rallies and what have you together, you know i think er taught us an incredible amount . have you have you got any er idea of how i it came about that a group was so organized? i think possibly because there were outsiders in the group, i dunno. possibly because some of them might've been councillors and knew the ways that sort of er things went on and how to get things done officially and above board. you know we were all amateurs at the game, the workers, but some of the women you know do it professionally, had worked elsewhere, knew how things went on elsewhere you know, with the d h s s or whatever. i think possibly because women are slightly more organized and what have you. you know they're used to a household budget and they know how to manage on however x many pounds a week. and if you take half of that away you know they know how to manage on that as well, somehow. do you think that realization had had s hadn't surfaced until that? i never knew my wife was such a little get up and goer if you like. erm never knew she could write such good lectures or speeches. you know she's been hiding her light under a bushel, a bush. has any is there way in which you from your observation there,you the erm there's been a in in the relationship between the men and the and the women involved involved as a consequence of er this kind of activity? well i do i don't know really but er certainly i i probably discuss work a lot more with my wife now than before, and let her know what's get going on there. and probably other people do as well. you know because, i think we all thought it was our problem, we can sort it out. you know, typical male attitude you know, women no help at all. and after a while you know it was without the women we would've been you know nothing. what what was the sort of erm help what did er did you observe was was given from the support group? i think just the fact that my wife knew what was going on, and knew the problems exactly you know, they had their own meetings and the food parcels that they could organize, you know i wouldn't have a clue how to go about it, the fact that various shops refused to have collection points inside, and they wrote off to the management of these shops and got that changed. no they just seemed to know how to go about things a hell of a lot better than we did. as soon as we realized oh hang on a minute you know, they're not all bad these women ,erm no really we couldn't do without them. the, it's been put to me to er interview various people or listen to other people if they can tell me about mm. the strike, that the old men oh yeah if he had been in charge, things would have been very different. do you think that erm a n true statement? i think it's it's hard for me to say because i didn't work for him for long. you know his son took over shortly after i joined the company. certainly from what i've heard, things would never have happened the way they did, and i think from the sort of very short dealings i had with him, things wouldn't have happened they way they did. whether they, you know financially we'd be better off or worse off i really couldn't say . i don't think we would've been standing outside the gates . w what would be the essence of the difference then between him and his son . i think possibly respect for the workforce. you know his father had started the company and the men, the older men in the quarry had been there from day one with him, you know from when they were producing next to nothing to being quite a profitable concern, and he realized the value of these men, and that you couldn't just say, oh because they disagree with you just well, down the road pal. he realized that experience in the quarrying industry is certainly something that you don't get rid of. you know fair enough, some of the older men can't move as fast as a eighteen year old, but on the other hand it's what they got in their head that counts. i don't know, just generally respect for the workforce. but this er w this this feeling of erm not being respected,w do you think in that was in any sense a an important motivation for just sticking it out amongst the older men? erm i think they knew that if we went back under his conditions, their days would be numbered certainly. you know he'd far prefer to have two or three youngsters earning considerably less, who absolutely nothing about the industry than one slightly older, certainly vastly more experienced man and you know paying him more. you know he'd far prefer to have the cheap workforce that you could tell exactly and appear to know what he's talking about, whereas the older men knew that he knew absolutely nothing . was there any sense of surprise really that as the quarrier was were welshmen and most of the workforce were welshmen that in fact things would come to some sort of agreement, that there wouldn't be this kind of as an outsider , probably being the only englishman in the quarries, you know i i think they were surprised, the fact that it was a local family, i think that's what really rubbed them up the wrong way. er they'd been to chapel with them, been to school with them, worked in other places with them, and it ended like it did. you know that that did surprise a lot of them. but i don't know quite how the welsh mentality works you know as regards you know loyalty to one's nation or whatever, but er no,l looking from the outside you know, i i thought it was a bit strange that sort of next door neighbours could end up you know completely opposed to each other. do you think it w in any sense has damaged the community? oh yeah, it certainly has. without a question. no erm er even now, and the the strike's been finished i can't remember four months or something, three months, you know the community i think it'll take a a hell of a long time to heal the rifts and mend the scars. possibly caused by people returning to work, i think those are the ones that really opened up the community and dropped people on either side of the fence as opposed to sitting on top of it. do you think y er you and your your mates who were out, do you think you learnt anything from the strike? erm, well yeah i've learnt that my wife is more use than just in the kitchen. no i think, all of a sudden you l you realize why you're in a trade union and why you need the press and the media to help you, you know you can't just ignore them. and also why you've got to talk to people, you know get your problems out in the open rather than let them build up and all of a sudden just say right,that's it, out the gates, or down tools. and i think you know the management ought to learn, hopefully they will learn a bit by that as well. you i infer from that you er s you saying that if the same thing this is this is that if the same thing were to occur again your approach would be and you'd be more more of a strategist in the handling of it. oh yeah, yeah. i mean second time around you know what's gonna go on. mm. and i know full well now what it's like to be standing on a picket line for seven months. and it's not something that i enjoy, so that you'll try every which way to try and avoid it. but if a matter came to a head that withdrawing my labour was the only way to resolve it, that i thought was the only way to resolve it, i'd go out and do it again. in those early days, was there a feeling that withdrawal of labour would in fact bring about the effect that you wanted? oh yeah, yeah. just chatting with some of my mates, you know, oh it'll be over in a couple of weeks. that was always the way we thought. but that was not to be. was there any sp special way in which you contributed to the in the strike, any particular skills you were called upon to . well, everyone seemed to think that i knew what i was doing with a computer, so the shifts, the picket shifts were left up to me, any facts and figures needed, databases,addresses were left up to me. any printouts and things. but no i think er they thought i could speak english better than some of them themselves so they sent me off to english universities or wherever to put across our problems. the computer reads the message and goes up . there's not even a human being in the warehouse involved. so that it can all it's all it's all assembled by load by computer now. so what alastair's saying is information technology er gives us the opportunity to give you information down er a telephone line. and our despatcher hardware er the disk can either. if they've got their own computer which is i b m compatible we just give them the disk because it's programmed that the despatcher not the hardware. it's the software that is the despatcher. but if they've got their software hardware well it's the hardware as well. but really what it does it can either stand alone and print just be a printer put the data in and then . it's set up with your like your b m s it's got your database in. it's set up with all their comput . somebody comes in and runs a separate form puts all their customer and all they're doing is when the orders change they just put the and it prints out notes and labels and if you've got hundreds of them it saves a job in time and money and the girl . and what it also does is is as you call off the numbers if you've got . . yes he's he's reading off er yes he's but that's printing off labels . but that is the same it's same thing though. it's a printer comput it's a p c that's all it is and that's what the despatch. you know if you've got a p c you can use our despatcher system. you can tie the . that's what the hardware is. the programme is the despatcher and it will just be and if you source your. you've got a sales code haven't you? d'ya know what the sales code does on your b m s? that's right. is this yours alison? yes and if alison three seven five a thousand number you've scored one five. and every time she pardon? it will tell you what you're what you're responsible for. what can you give the managers about alison? activity and productivity. how hard you working . if you put rubbish in you'll get rubbish out. you know. a database is only as good as how well it's managed. i mean it's not really data system that's it's the way it's being used. and it's the same . a projection you know a warehouse order erm stock and order situation, if you've got a and they've got people by source number, they can see how much is being used by you. so the despatcher can help with your stock control help in a warehouse situation. help you reduce your labour on the just with ordinary notes and labels on volume. reduce error. it's clea quick and it can link directly to our computer if you want . so is this just with a few major accounts or erm have prospect accounts that we need to deal with? fifty weeks you know fifty weeks only ten a day is it worth putting a database in for only ten labels . but low on that one. you need to be talking a hundred a day really. you need to be talking you need to be talking how long when you were writing out labels. girl that would actually write out all the notes . we haven't got one but she'd like to . can't get them to print it haven't got a printer. that's not my decision now. what i want what i'm trying to get to is the despatcher is an eye and it's far in advance to but i've had . sorry sarah? they have specially network no not just you. there's a team of people who are specially keeping abreast of the technology and they are by paul who heads the erm network operations. because it's an operational function really isn't it? and they set it up. something like they actually set it up even though erm on behalf of the salesmen. what the demand and supply situation i don't know how we stand on that. but erm obviously because of the customers it does not always it will certainly come now we've got this technology but they haven't got the software package. the software package i mean sometimes it comes with the deal we don't charge extra. we feel price of it you know. and er . and how would you identify you were arranging an ex sales form right. i how you gonna find out whether it's a or have they got stock control problems or they need management . how would you . now would you would you how would you would you talk about or how would you you know do that sort of job . i'd introduce and then i'd . when you say you want to speak to somebody despatch, would you ask for the despatch manager or the territory manager or no that's right. all you're giving out is information at this point in time. they can't make a decision to change but they can give you the information that we need to bring forward. and if you do approach a company this is an enquiry i need to speak to your you know who's responsible for erm raising documents in the postal region. who's responsible for raising documents in the despatch department. or who's responsible for erm received or going out. erm you actually you know you don't have to say i'm . you just equate to save you time and effort and hard work and going home just feel like this. feeling like you know your life. associate that with you if you feel . that means change learn loads of paperwork to sort out. that's what we think when you say . asking questions asking questions . all right marion ? yeah. you know really weighted down with something that's really bothering you. because you don't think that you really are through the motion. at least when you think about you start to sound like you that's the problem with the job. is you've gotta be like that show in the west end where it's gonna feel like the first time . erm what i'm trying to get is you've got to start backing up from the sale er the objective of that call is not to close the sale. is not to handle objections. is not to persuade them to change on that call. is to gather information. alison i understand you're the person who has to drive information on . so you're the one who really has to do er if the if the system doesn't suit you or if the system's hard work if you have problems . i mean interesting because i've never actually done the job that you're doing. how these names . and that's the sort of question. d'ya have you know what's it in connection with. why are you hard work. and i don't know if for you . and you know what i mean? if if people wanna know all you the benefit is saving half saving energy. you know you the hard work. it's no use talking about cost savings to the girl interested in how much it costs. he just wants to go home or having a job and the despatcher needs to be established with the person who's actually gonna use it. and get her backing or his backing. if that's something you want us to is it something you would that be an advantage to you. speak to about this . rather than you selling it to the boss and then all the trouble . you've gotta the right person . i'm gonna stop there but what has it we could spend all day and all tomorrow talking about detailed and knowledge. but what i'll try and ask you to do is your service level is not just four nights four noons four despatch you know it's not just that. it's the it's the detail of it. you need to know closely the detail. let's just run through a couple of the points. just tell me what you've got on your list there that erm people have said . that was another one just of warrington despatch. that's a good one. that's what . belfast is in northern ireland part of the u k right? now when you are i want to talk to you about doing a sales call. but before you do you've got to look at the material in the working file. look back internally and now we've gotta talk about communication to your question survey. how do we breach what you do and how d'ya get there. will you what method do you use to to talk to our questioner? what's the . you do telephone . there's different ways of communicating isn't there? there's things like telephones . letters. letters. faxes. letters fax visiting. and d'ya have a lot of ? yeah. yes? those are the those are the main ones. can you do me a little exercise first just to er write down write down what erm of what we're trying to reveal. imagine now communication i'm talking about not only through letter and telephone i'm talking about total communication. if you were now talking to each other tonight round the table in the restaurant or at the bar in the hotel okay. you're you're telling you're communicating with each other. if i said to you the communication right these are the methods that this is what actually communication is. if i said some of it isn't made from the words or the message some of it is made from the tone of your voice. and some of it is made from body language. d'ya know what i mean by body language? can you give me an example of your body language? pick up the phone and smile. no well that's not body language because he can't see you can he? all with a smile is tone of voice. yes would you agree? what is body language. you're staying you're in a hotel now tonight and you're talking what is body language? i mean the way that you sit. the way that you sit. sitting like that right. you're more likely to be that's right. obviously you know when you've been sitting still this is probably the worse hour of the day . you've been fed and watered just like a new baby. you've been fed. it's hard to keep concentration right. and your body language tells me. it tells me the way you look you know. now all of a sudden i change the subject and look the way you're all sitting forward. that tells me you can from your body language what you're doing. your eye contact with me is body language. we can we understand each other we're reading each other 's messages. you're nodding occasionally when you agree with me. you know that you're telling you're giving me messages. erm that's what body language is right? you were even lip reading. you don't know you do but you do lip read erm as well. and if i said to you those three elements of communication that makes up the hundred percent of it yes? that makes total communication. now what i want you to do is ask yourself don't discuss it just write down for me and i'll go round the table. if i said to you how would you divide that hundred percent up between those three what value would you put on your message. how important is the message? to get total communication how much relevance do you put on the message? is it thirty three percent thirty three percent thirty three percent or is it all weighted one way or the other? we're talking about face to face situation aren't we ? yes. a total communication situation where you've got you might you've got use of body language you've got use of language you've got use of tone of voice and you're making you're getting the message across. how important is those three components and what value would you put on them. and i'll just compare what each of you say and i'm going to give you some information er researched by . although erm we haven't we're running short of these papers but it's the same figures . sarah what was yours? well i've put erm message yes. er tone of voice fifty percent. yes. and body language . right. now yeah well let me check that out. erm word i've put twenty yeah. tone? tone forty five. body language thirty . thank you. oh. melanie. twenty five. yes. tone of voice twenty five. yes. body language fifteen. right. karen? erm words of message forty. yes. tone of voice twenty. yes. and body language forty. right. and alison. words of message thirty five. yes. tone of voice forty. four o? yes. and body language twenty five. i've got words and message twenty. yes. tone of voice thirty. yes. and body language fifty. right. and marion. words forty. tone forty and body language twenty. right. so you've got some differing opinions there haven't you? some of you some of you heavy in bodies. and er you're heavy in tone here. some of you are look at er relatively high words. research that where they're looking at how to convey the message from advancing and sales and people getting erm interviews getting into jobs what they say what they how they stand even how they've looked and so on. they reckon that erm thirty eight percent is how you say it. fifty five percent is how you communicate through what sort of . but they reckon proportion and we when . well i'm not researcher i couldn't say how they do it but it's done it was done from their recruitment and marketing sales . and they put on every consultant through out training course they got i think we've made i think we've got sixty five . but they reckon when they did obviously it's a set that probably someone had to say the same thing doing or the same person went through so many functions and it was worked using different ways of saying . so why i said to you on the telephone as you say it's not what you say it's the way you say it. what as as i said to you twenty percent of the messages a word sounds the same . there's quite a few letters and therefore words sound the same . and again destinations er t n t. t n t no no if you're not careful . i wanna tell you the way the word perhaps the one where . it would be normal well it must be what i've said. i want you to do something now which is a little on the same talking about how we . and i'm going to write other and i'm going to ask you to put a different emphasis on different words to change the meaning. okay . say that for me and go i'd say it were you were a snob. say it as though in a snobby way for me. would anybody else like to have a go at that?more snobby than . i mean really do it you know. what else where where else can you say it if you wanted to talk about the exclusivity of . right can you demonstrate what i mean? all the best. we're all the best. you're putting . you're saying erm as if to say, melanie you got the message across but by by excluding you you lot she said all the best people . in other words if you don't you're not the best people. the way lynne said it is where all the all the best people. she's not saying er she she she wanted an emphasis on the word best but you've got the same . right. say it mandy in a sarcastic way as though you don't believe a word of it. can you think about it for a minute. of course we'd never be sarcastic any of us would we? all the best people. that's right. she asked it you were saying it lynne and melanie as though it was a statement of a fact. what did m mandy infer? she was questioning. questioning yes. more than guesses. pardon? oh right. right. erm say it as though you're not sure er you're not sure about it. you're not sure of of where it is that you feel you might . erm you think you're questioning the the actual role . you want to check information is correct. what . say it thought you're not sure whether it's cedar grove or it could be somewhere else cedar something else. how would you say it then? go on a bit louder. that's right. see how she inflects on a word? cedar grove. and say back to sarah confirm that she's right but just use those words. confirm that she's right by her cedar grove . say that sentence back just to confirm that she's got that right. cedar grove is the . no you didn't say the word then. try reading this time. oh right sorry . good. i know what you're brain's ahead of your mouth here. carry on again. cedar grove is where . yes yes. but she didn't want to know yes that's right she said that right then. cedar grove is where . i was thinking of the word grove. if you said cedar grove is where cedar grove is where the best people live. that's right. you know if you can just actually repeat it back. and people do that to you don't they? you say something they say er, oh erm i was paid i was paid today. oh you were paid today? don't they? but they mean something entirely different but they say the same words. i was paid today. you were paid today? anyway. sorry? . what i'm say is is it's it's not what you say. the meaning is not in the words it's in the way you say it isn't it? if i say to you, sarah i'd like a few words with you. what can i mean? because you think what mandy? what d'ya think if someone says they want a few words with you what d'ya think's going to happen? told off. told off. now to me i might want to know that people use language to mean more than one thing. and they do it to to cause ambiguity. they you know we create confusion because it it allows us to have control. and we . you know the tone of the voice could completely waylay you know lay lay completely your fear of being told off by the by the pleasant tone in your voice. yes. it might be a meeting not a telephone . might might be a constructive thing an informative thing. what er do you ever have people you know perhaps people who are close erm dear to you who use certain language that you find erm er either or do you use methods which say getting your point across to people that . well i do me and jonathan erm they don't like me er read all his books . when i talk and the news is on john will always it really annoys him. that's it you do want that's all that's all body language doesn't even speak no you don't have to. just looks and i just non verbal communication. yes. non verbal that's why i know you think about body language but think of all the times things like that happen where the body language speaks it you know. a raising of i have a brother who raises his eyebrows he he doesn't raise his voice he just looks just or what about the way they say, have a nice day. sarcastic thank you for . like kath kath er trust me i'm a doctor. or are you on drugs. i mean we use language don't we? we say one thing and mean mean something else. and we're quite good at being sarcastic. women are really expert at it. we've got it. because you have to be cutting with the verbal. because you can't wallop them round the head can you? you've got to be a bit more er intelligent when . if you justified me coming on you know you can you can be a bit more you're being a bit more erm what's the word cerebral aren't you. you're thinking more than doing and er wit you know sarcasm they say is the lowest form of wit but actually sarcasm probably is wit. some people think you know really be testing er with language and mean something entirely different. i mean sometimes do it very cleverly but what i'm saying is i want to illustrate what i meant by the words never used message. you know when we using the telephone method of communication what d'ya think why d'ya think we we we're employed with the company. why d'ya decided to give some contact . yes. i would say that plus qualities there's a good network . but that's why telephone sales because telephone and the to us and to them you know. at one time we said it was you know rewarded on the edge of technology when they like most things you know. your brother probably paid a week's . some people can get . at one time a we'd pay a year's salary or two year's salary. now we can get something that would be half affordable . but cost to us if you paid you know pay for girls and also the procedure to er use the service is is much better now. i i can write it but when i is what quick? quick. yes you think it's people expect it to be quick don't they? you don't make the public phone . very cost what i'm saying is it's quick erm people expect to do it it's something oh if they're writing instead of going round i'll pick up the phone and do it. it's er an instant method. so they expect it to be quick. anything else? yeah you in our job yeah why we would choose it. that's erm it's two way obviously. i mean if you're writing to someone er and it's instant that's a good point. but then if you prefer it to writing they'll postal strike you you know you hope . and in fact the like a mailshot one forty percent on something. whereas contacts on the phone would probably be more er effective. and i think it puts you at their as well. because most people have a lot of area it isn't like someone reception i've got a phone call for you. now when you're often they phone up and say, there's someone here to see you. and . they actually have to come and meet the person fact to face. they get post land on their desk. but they haven't got the instant feedback. a you have to actually you know make arrangements. but you're actually at their desk right you know i'm here really. you know it's a good method to get to know detail . d'ya think? mm. d'ya think it's harder to talk to the person you can't get . i think it's easier to get them when you're on the phone. like you said you can't see the body language and fobbed off . now now i agree with you there. i think it's easier to get through but it's harder to hold yes. people get confused then they think, oh when something i've got to and i've to read all those messages a lack of rapport really isn't it? you're saying it's not not it isn't impossible but it's harder to generate a warmth over the phone isn't it? we have to act more that's right. and sometimes it's too quick yes? it's too quick for what we want to try and do. because we never okay then thank you we'll call you that's right. no and that means erm you're blindfold really aren't you? if you've lost your way on the phone . so there's a it's it's got . anything else . what don't you like that . the fact that people do get a lot of . right. so yes. so that's you say that's . yeah. i think that you know a lot of people are sort of. you think too many calls. i would say that's interpreted as easier to or easier dismissed. would you say er it's important because easily dismissed. and you know i've had a lot of people say to me, oh is it just a sales call? yes. is that the telephone's fault d'ya think or is that fault i mean salesman coming in as well. i mean a lot of times you know i think just phone up and say, is mister so and so there and then guard themselves t n t delivery. oh he says a sales you know . yeah. he because it's yeah. . d'ya think that could happen to you face to face as well though lynne? you were not coming strong. oh yeah definitely. yeah. i don't i don't think it's too much to do with the telephone. i think probably the saying aspect rather than telephone aspect . but i accept what you saying. sometimes it's because it's so many people that are using this method that the importance of what you're trying to say tends to be dismissed and therefore . sales means you're going to tell me you're going to persuade me to do something i don't want to do. i think and then we can pass them off then . yeah? mm. that's when they when they calls for selling. yes help line. the help line aspect of it yes? yeah . yeah yeah. that's good for us then isn't it? yes? he's interrupting. i think it can also be i think have you never well i have to do he says i don't want anybody to see me. cos he is this real . i think i think i love the radio. i love radio plays and . i like the radio plays and i like erm er stories and you know book at bedtime and i love all those because it's like reading. i was reading a book . have you ever read a book and oh yes. the illusion going completely and erm my imagination is much better is much more erm and music is very erm inspiring for your imagination. i always remember i had tommy ken russell and he'd been on . we both know the music very very well and the album . i mean nothing could catch my imagination fantasy. well where you get where you get reporting from foreign you know station . and i agree with trusting you can you know the reality you what you're bound to point. you can't because people idealize and fantasize and you'll never ever even though you might be perfectly and somebody else's dream but you won't be everybody's dream so you're bound to disappoint. or you'll leave it to the imagination. whereas your voice er is carrying all all sorts of wonderful . anything they want you to be you'll be you know. and that's really i think a distinct advantage. just like we can create an image that we want. and i'll i'll do that and i'll . but it's a compliment it's a compliment from the company saying we've got a looking people that we're quite that people can you know . look what at the conference . human bring a human face to people. people like we're a photograph. what i tomorrow and not here because they forward it on to us . and they sent it to erm he sent it and he hadn't he hadn't done . he'd sent a photograph in and he was sitting in the garden and right and he was on a garden chair and he had his nice hair washed and shiny. sitting in the like that smiling you know. and he looked liked really just ready to get up and do his lovely fresh face you know. and he looked at the letter and he looked at that photograph and he thought, i can't . and the photograph matched it sort of said i'm not the same you know what i mean?what he said. and and it really made it really gave the edge to that you know and and someone and i thought . i mean you know and and it the eagerness oozed off the picture on the page. and i think it can come out of the voice as well. and erm i think what we've gotta do is you know . if the image is something you don't really think is going to do as much for you as the voice . older women have a deep voice and it actually can sound very attractive. and some people can change their . you know you can . and er i think that helps and er they'll talk to each other you know . and i have to talk to him on the phone and i'm saying speak to him very well. met him for the first time i think and erm i mean he's nice don't his wife doesn't you know . but he has got this marvellous voice and he . i think i thought they've got no ideas and then come on with this speaker and i was and i thought, ooh. and when i wasn't looking at it . so i mean friday is a very busy day i think next tuesday would be more suitable. what did i just say? friday is a very busy day i think next tuesday would be more suitable. thank you. today's newspaper has several interesting articles. what did i just say? today's newspaper has several interesting articles. thank you. this pen writes very smoothly. i would like another one of the same model. what did i just say? this pen writes very smoothly. i would like another one of the same model. thank you. listen. what did . the mirror is dirty it's difficult to see anything clearly in it. what did i just say? the mirror is dirty it's difficult to see anything very clearly in it. no . yes. the mirror is dirty it is difficult to see anything clearly in it. what did i just say? the mirror is dirty it is difficult to see anything clearly in it. thank you. listen. yes. sugar is bad for you. you should not eat so much. what did i just say? sugar is bad for you. you should not eat so much. thank you. listen. yes. was the bus late this morning? is that why you were so late? what did i just say? was the bus late this morning? is that why you were so late? thank you. listen. yes. the skirt is too short i can't possibly wear it. what did i just say? the skirt is too short i can't possibly wear it. yeah. listen to this one. listen to this one. listen. yes. on wednesday i have to visit the dentist. i do hope i will not need to have any fillings. what did i just say? on wednesday i have to visit the dentist. i do hope i will not need any fillings. yeah. oh. yeah. just the next ten. number eleven yeah. listen. yes. his watch is slow he probably has not realized. his watch is slow he probably has not realized. yes. listen. yes. it is so humid today everyone is sweating profusely. what did i just say? it is so hot today everybody is sweating profusedly no. listen. okay yes sorry yes. it is so humid today everyone is sweating profusely. what did i just say? so humid today everybody's sweating profusely. no no. listen. oh no i'm not into this today. it is so humid today everyone is sweating profusely. what did i just say? it is so humid today everybody is sweating profusely. no. listen. it is so humid today everybody everyone listen. it is so humid today everyone is sweating profusely. it is so humid today everyone is sweating profusely. yes. thank you. listen. yes. can you come on monday i'd love to see you. what did i just say? can you come on monday i would love to see you. yes. thank you. listen. the shoes are now repaired. one heel was worn down. what did i just say? the shoes are now repaired. one heel was worn down. thank you. you're welcome. listen. ask that man over there. he is likely to know the way. what did i just say? ask that man over there. he is likely to know the way. thank you. listen. have you eaten yet? if not you must be very hungry. what did i just say? have you eaten yet? if not you must be very hungry. thank you. listen. she washed the floor thoroughly and was pleased she had done so. what did i just say? she washed the floor, go on say it again. she washed the floor thoroughly and was pleased that she. she washed the floor thorough and was pleased she had done so. what did i just say? she washed the floor thorough and was pleased that she'd done so. yes. thank you. listen. yes. on wednesday i have to visit the dentist. i do hope i will not need to have any fillings. what did i just say? on wednesday i need to visit the dentist. i do hope i will not need any fillings. no. oh i knew i'd said that one wrong . listen. i can't do that one. on wednesday i have to visit the dentist. i do hope i will not need to have to have any fillings. what did i just say? on wednesday i need to visit the dentist. i do hope i will not need to have any fillings. no. no i didn't think. i can't get this one. listen. if i asked you to on wednesday i have to visit the dentist. i do hope i will not need to have any fillings. what did i just say? on wednesday i have to visit the dentist. i do hope i will not need to have any fillings. thank you. listen. i couldn't do that one. the dog bit him and made his hand bleed. what did i just say? the dog bit him and made his hand bleed. thank you. listen. the box is empty we will have to get some more. what did i just say? the box is empty we will have to get some more. thank you. is that all then? i just did that one but i always got stuck on erm the dentist one. can i gather up your . just yeah. hold them back till i've collected up. and we'll try and to another oh so that was a simple one was it? is this twenty again? i will not need to have any fillings. yes. thank you. you're welcome. the dog bit him and made his hand bleed. the dog bit him and made his hand bleed. thank you. listen. yes. the box is empty and we will have to get some more. say. the box is empty i will have to get some more. no. yes. the box is empty we will have to get some more. the box is empty we will have to get some more. thank you. have a go at the medium difficulty. oh god. don't forget to say, what did i just say every time. listen. yes. i haven't seen your family for months. please remember me to your mother. i trust she is well. oh good god. what did i just say ? i haven't seen your family for months. please remember me to your mother. i hope that she is well. no. but everyone won't get that. no. listen. i haven't seen your family for months. please remember me to your mother. i trust she is well. what did i just say? i haven't seen your family for months. oh god no. i haven't seen your family for months. please remember me to your mother. i trust that she is well. i trust she is well. thank you. listen. yes. no. i don't want this one. i would like the one on the top shelf please. perhaps it would be easier for you if i came back later. what did i just say? no. i want the one on the top shelf please. perhaps it would be better if i came back later. no. listen. no. i don't want this one. i would like the one on the top shelf please. perhaps it would be easier for you if i came back later. what did i just say? no. i don't want the one on the top shelf. no. i want the one on the top shelf . don't want i don't want the. no listen. no. i don't want this one. i would like the one on the top shelf please. perhaps it would be easier for you if i came back later. what did i just say? no. i don't want this one. i want the one on the top shelf. perhaps it would be easier for you if i came back later. yes i would like it if oh that's won wonderful. listen. i really can't make the appointment. my secretary will phone on tuesday to rearrange another appointment. what did i just say? i can't make the appointment. my secretary will phone on tuesday to made another appointment. no listen. i really can't make the appointment. my secretary will phone on tuesday to rearrange another appointment. what did i just say? i can't make the appointment. i really can't make the appointment. my secretary will phone you on my secretary will call phone contact no. erm. listen. i really can't make the appointment. my secretary will phone on tuesday to rearrange another appointment. i really can't make the appointment. my secretary will my secretary will phone on tuesday to rearrange another appointment. thank you. listen. this is difficult. i know. this book is very enjoyable. i think you should study it very carefully and notice how you feel at the end of it. what did i just say? this book is very enjoyable. i think you should study it and see how you feel at the end of it. no. listen. this book is very enjoyable. i think you should study it very carefully and notice how you feel at the end of it. what did i just say? this book is very enjoyable. i think you should study it and notice how you feel at the end of it. no. listen. oh no. you're getting one bit. this book is very enjoyable. i think you should study it very carefully and notice how you feel at the end of it. this book is very enjoyable. i think you should study it very carefully and notice how you feel at the end of it. thank you. listen. let's have a party. do you think friday or sunday is the best day? what did i just say? i think we should have a party. do you think that friday or sunday is the best day? no. listen. let's have a party. do you think friday or sunday is the best day? what did i just say? let's have a party. do you think friday or sunday is the best day? thank you. listen. yes. my children do go to school and have been for some months now. sammy really enjoys it. what did i just say? yes my children do go to school now and have done for some months now. sammy really enjoys it. no. listen. my children do go to school and have been for some months now. sammy really enjoys it. yes my children do go to school and have done for some months now. sammy really enjoys it. no. yes my children do go to school and have been for some months now. sammy really enjoys it. what did i just say? yes my children do go to school oh i was going to say, have been for some months now. sammy really enjoys it. thank you. listen. yes. we heard about your recent burglary and hope you are not too upset by all the trouble and inconvenience. what did i just say? we heard about your recent burglary and hope you were not too upset by the trouble and inconvenience. and the inconvenience. all the trouble. all the all the trouble and the inconvenience. thank you. well there's a bit of cheating there. listen. yes. i wonder if you would like to come and visit some friends with me next weekend. they have a tennis court and swimming pool. what did i just say? i wonder whether you would like to come i was wondering whether you would like to come and see some friends with me next weekend. they have a tennis court and a swimming pool. no. listen. i wonder if you would like to come and visit some friends with me next weekend. they have a tennis court and a swimming pool. what did i just say? i wonder whether you would like to come and see some friends with me. i wonder whether you would like i wonder if you would like to come and see some friends with me next weekend . i wonder if you would like to visit some friends with me next weekend. they have a tennis court and a swimming pool. thank you. listen. yes. he walked quickly down the road anxious not to be late for his appointment which could lead to an important contract. what did i just say? he walked quickly down the road and then it was something about him not being late cos he had to a contract. no. listen. he walked quickly down the road anxious not to be late for his appointment which would lead to an important contract. what did i just say? he walked quickly down the road anxious that he was not late he walked quickly down the road anxious that anxious he anxious listen. he walked quickly down the road anxious not to be late for his appointment which could lead to an important contract. he walked quickly down the road anxious not to be late for his appointment. it could be an important contract. it which could lead. which could lead to an important contract. thank you. sorry did did i say it wrong? last one. erm. when she arrived at the airport she immediately checked in her baggage and made a phone call to amsterdam. what did i just say? when she arrived at the airport she reached into her baggage and quickly made a phone call to amsterdam. no. listen. oh it's near enough. when she arrived at the airport she immediately checked in her baggage and made a phone call to amsterdam. what did i just say? when she arrived at the airport she immediately checked in her baggage and made a phone call to amsterdam. thank you. it looks like thank god for that. but you could give me some it's so difficult. i know. you can give me some of the hard ones if you like. when you he carefully folded the paper and put it in the desk on top of the blotter. i remember can you repeat it please. yes. when he had finished reading he carefully folded the paper and put it in the desk on top of the blotter. when he had finished reading he carefully folded it and placed it on top of the blotter. no. when he had finished reading he carefully folded the paper and put it in the desk on top of the blotter. when he had finished reading it he folded it. carefully folded the paper he folded the he carefully folded the paper and placed it in the desk on top of the blotter. no. when he had finished reading he carefully folded the paper and put it in the desk on top of the blotter. when he had finished reading he carefully folded the paper and put it in the desk on top of the blotter. thank you. you're welcome. the road was bendy and twisty with large shady trees on either side forming a beautiful avenue. the road was bendy and twisty forming which made it look beautiful. it was a beautiful avenue. i'm not very good at this at all. it is it's really difficult. i mean you've got you've made memorized those two lines. i'm only memorizing one liners. go on. the road was bendy and twisty with large shady trees on either eith sorry i'll start again. the road was bendy and twisty with large shady trees on either side forming a beautiful avenue. the road was bendy and twisty with shady trees with large shady trees either side forming a large a beautiful avenue. yes. right. he noticed that the square was completely deserted and he wondered where everyone was. he noticed the square was completely deserted and wondered where everyone was. thank you. you're welcome. she went to the local public baths every day before work and swam twenty lengths. she went to the public baths every day and swam twenty lengths after work. no. no. she went to the local public baths every day before work and swam twenty lengths. she went to local okay folks can we bring you back round before work and swam twenty lengths. can we stop you there. we don't want to be all night do we? we are gonna be all right. okay let's get even though it's fantastically interesting but er erm let me just get a bit of feedback from. how did that feel? was it easy or oh a nightmare. oh what did description. yeah. what was difficult about it? let's just analyze a little bit what was difficult. what did you find easy what was difficult? by the time you remembered what they'd said erm the first bit. the first bit yeah you're remembering the last bit when you're remembering that you've forgot the first bit. cos by the time you said, what did i just say? so it's the amount of information yeah. too intense to listen. what d'ya mean by that karen? well you sort of like say for instance erm we heard of recent burglary . you are thinking burglary while she's saying, i'm . so all you can remember is you're obviously evaluating the message yeah. of the first thing and fixing that in your mind and then well you can't keep abreast of how much . anything else girls? what d'ya you were saying karen how d'ya have to how did you manage to do it? you may just sort of er form a picture in your mind just sit there and lip read sort of concentrate. look at the floor put a picture in your mind of what they're saying and it seems sort of. what about getting the do you do you get the gist but not the details. yes. understand the meaning behind the sentence but you couldn't word for word. lynne was doing all the hard work. we got down to number tend and they were all one liners. and i was thinking, i can't even get these ones let alone the two liners. trying to repeat the same one. why were they hard erm on the form that we looked at? erm no. i dunno i i got the gist of what lynne was saying and i was concentrating but maybe i was concentrating too hard because i was getting most of it right wasn't i but it it's just odd words you sometimes you switch them round. you concentrate and you get it. what about the language that they use? there's a lot of er was it different to the way you would use it? yes. erm that erm we would normally use. terms and phrase but i don't know. things like that sometimes you can remember but because you don't use them so often you think, oh that's strange. but then and that's in fact yeah but in an exercise like this you're thinking when they're saying that, oh i wouldn't normally say that. by which time you're not listening to the other things they're saying. now what do we do when we launch into our presentations on the telephone? try and get as much out in one breath and then just go next and somebody says, well the girl you know he says you never call you you never told him about that. you said, i told him about that. and you you discussed but he can't remember it. i've told him about that. and you do you can't go on you're expected to to remember a whole process that you're asking to you know explain how to fill in the form or use another system. you're expecting them to remember it word for word as though it you know it's ingrained on their soul almost and can't yeah i've found myself doing that sometimes. you know if i start saying something i'm noticing myself think you know i'm taking too long to say it. but i won't sorry could you repeat that again. yes. and you have to try and think it differently. that's right. what sort of skills would you implant er what would you do in order to take er note of the detail of that exercise . what what sort of things would you do to break it up and absorb it in bite size pieces? what things how could you improve that retention pause. pause you can pause couldn't you? what about the person who was listening. what could you have done that would aid you remembering? what's the obvious thing? emphasize the word. yes the tone of voice well done. that helped a bit did it? yes. so the pace of it you said and by pausing and er stopping and stopping going er too fast. giving them plenty of time to absorb. did you speak fairly slowly to help them? yes. it's like you were speaking to a foreigner you know a french person or something. i found i was trying to announce it the i'd this and i'd that in there. it was trying to like speak very clearly. yes. yes you you are teach related is the word yes? you were very clear you were an and i don't think lynne even adopted a certain authority about the information when i heard her reading it out. she sounded like a news presenter. you were saying you do emphasize when you're trying to get people to understand. you do. yes that's right. but remember those these these things that you understand logic are logic aren't they? they're just logical things to do. pause pause speak rather slower than you would do if you were in a normal conversation. remember twenty percent of the message is lip read and you haven't got that opportunity. it's understanding the so speak slowly not not not laboured but just a little slower than you would do. we all chat our heads off don't we? we're we're all excited at this of information that we want to pass the story across to . big use inflection and intonation in the voice. clear clarity or articulation. speak clearly. use language. that's what they said on that film didn't they? that it's not the language felt uncomfortable because erm it wasn't an expression you would normally use. i know you can hardly be expected to adopt all your expressions erm but you shouldn't be too technical in you know. if you're talking about erm you know er l b os and confinements and up-trading. up-trading down-trading despatch you know. i've just had a phone call in i've just erm had a phone call from a conference company and she and part of her research the woman in came on one of my courses to just see what the background and what we were doing. and erm she had she works for a erm videos set up conferences you know the sort of things that you've been on. and erm if you ask for the despatch manager they say we haven't got one. we don't have one. do you despatch any goods? they say, no. because they're a conference . if you use language that's alien to that environment it doesn't mean very much. who would who would be the person in a marketing and promotion conference erm creative designer? what would the designer be? well he would would he he would design everything and then obviously it would be important for him to get it sent out. so maybe he would arrange it? or the office manager? mm. yes usually erm someone manages the place somewhere . or even if you have to clarify the title by saying who is responsible for making sure that materials that you use arrive at the place that they're supposed to arrive at the time . who's responsible for your organization of that sort of backup. you might have to be more clear about what you're specifically asking for rather than use handles titles. you understand? you may have to talk out functions of the job. because you don't what sort of title. he he may say he may say head of creative creative head of create the creative department or head of erm . we had in our in the newspapers creative we had a creative department. he was head of creative. now it sounds weird now something about i'm sure that's but that's what we used to call him you know. and there were there were artists who the artist. only that you know you're not you're not familiar talking to the artist. but if they do story boards about videos they obviously illustrate and er or design stands or er or backdrops to er a setting. you know they have a creative market . but we might make a mistake with the title and someone . but if you use the function who is responsible for doing then you can often find out who . so you need to be careful of the language. is there anything else that you learned thinking of the exercise now listening when you put the shoe on the other foot and you have to stick to . what other things do you think could have helped you? there's an obvious thing really that erm if someone dictates something to you and you have to repeat that word for word what would you normally do by make notes of it. well done. that's what i was tempted to do actually. yes it's it's a natural you you get an urge to make notes . make notes. well you make notes when you're listening to customers and make notes when you were questioning me did i and it was hard to even if it's only four or five questions it was hard to pull together. or i can't do it i have to scribble. i have to scribble. even if i'm like giving out my name to a customer sometimes i write down lynne and it's like what did you write that for. that's right. bearing in mind this is dumped after a week. after this is dumped. we keep ours. do you? what for? i don't know. gets kept though if got like piles and piles of these. just in case. it's kept what i'm saying is it's it's a working document. it's a working document. it's for your you can you know keep make notes and er then something to you. shorthand it's all shorthand notes. i'm sure you do with your own anyway and er if you can that will help you . is there anything else that's support what you're trying to do? what how d'ya get the that's a difficult one really . shall we have a go at this? no. you talk about if it's something you're used to you talk about something and you know what you're talking of and somebody a bit like actual interesting to you. yeah. but area of interest yes. i was quite happy answering your questions quite happy. also you have the hard job i have the easy job . when you know more about what you're expecting to be told it's easier to remember it. whereas these things were just like anything out of the blue and it's like all what's what's coming isn't it? so what you're saying really you ought to make a logical pattern of it yes? it's got to cos most questions really you know that you're gonna say yes no even though like you said, well maybe i do put it that way. but we know really you could say yes . yes yes. what i'm saying is if you keep a most people what that that's a bit that's a very very very good point lynne about it they were all higgledy piggledy subjects. oh god no sense was made of it. and therefore your brain was trying to naturally put it into some context but it didn't go into any context so it was difficult so if you if you get them talking about something and they actually get talking about it that's right. and then you ask them something totally different and think, oh weren't you interested in that anyway. yeah and the thing is you they don't forget that when you phone someone else they're doing something else. and you just talking about. you've got to allow them to give their around to where you are with how you open the call. you've gotta say something interesting quite early on and just to bring the whole conversation to where you want it to be. you talk about asking questions you talk about the product that you've got to up to the question the problems that you . you talk about leading questions again that testing trial closed where we'd just test the water before we go for the actual commitment. really what we're doing after are they prepared to talk about it if when you by consent let me carry on talking when you don't have a leading question. what you going to say about something that's important a solution for you is that something you'd like to do? what have you got to say? you know and then you're starting to present information after you've got their full attention not just from the beginning where you're trying desperately to win the presentation forward. now what i'm a little bit concerned about is how you should grasp that attention initially. because i think you have a very tough job on the phone to do that and you need erm to start think about what is interesting okay? what i'd like you to do this evening if you will erm as an exercise is you know you were talking about erm asking questions listening to the answers speaking the same language watching erm talk the language. like first of all there's erm talk person to person asking questions listening to the answers watch er talk person to person watch for signals and er talk the same language. you remember what customer talk person to person. if you are thinking about it talking person to person remember the guy on the building site remember the woman who's pregnant and trying to sell insurance and getting him to he should have been securing his family welfare and so on. when the man in the wallpaper shop was he was tried flogging floor tiles instead of concentrating on wall coverings and so on. erm he perhaps he remembered who he was talking to and what it was all about. you know have to remember the person. now i want you to think about the person who he's going to talk to. right and i want you to plan to do that for a call tonight in order to what you would say to this sort of person all right? sarah i'm going to give you i'm going to give you a company call how we feel marketing. can i use your for inspiration there alison? you certainly may. thank you. i'll tell you what i'll do sarah. ignore this can i can you are you working on these currently or can i use these? erm it is this weeks but erm i won't be calling in. no all right then i won't i won't . i've got mine here. have you? have you got ? tell me if you're gonna work on there. anyone at all. has anybody else got their own you have your own. you've got some of your own. got any of your own girls? no. no. okay what i'm gonna ask you to do pick any one of these prospect leads. can you work on alison's with her. karen you've got your own. you've got your own melanie. mandy have you got any ? last week doesn't matter. don't matter. we'll use it just as an exercise again. imagination you've got the opportunity to do the call again. what i'm going to ask you to then folks lynne and marion use one of alison's just as an form. it doesn't really matter. you'll have types probably similar on each of of your own printout. i want you to think of the company you're going to ring. right? look at what the information on the pro on the prospect call thing that you've got there and i want you to plan an opening question. right? i want you to introduce yourself and i want you to say something interesting. related to the person. the company or the person that you're going to ring okay? now when i say say something interesting what i mean is i want you to pick something that you that t n t do. you know this morning you were looking for . you were looking at features like despatcher how you forward how you deliberate drivers and how good and how extra mile and write out printed write out labels for companies. and how we are the targeting comp how we are the company that specializes in certain industries because you've got you you do industry by phone mobile phone area and medical supplies and you know your local as well. we're that sort of company. what i want you to do you my language when you first speak to me. i don't want anyone to say, do you use a carrier? do you use a carrier . where do they go to? i don't want to hear that yet. that's something . i want you to attract my attention with a full introduction to tell me. what d'ya want to know when someone picks up the phone. you pick up the phone and say, hello. what d'ya want to know about the on the phone stranger. what d'ya want me to do? who it is. you'd like to know who the person is. give him your name. what does that do when someone tells you who they are by name? you can actually address the person rather than just speaking to mister customer . what else did you do? well you've got a contact man. he's someone you can go back to . yes i'm prepared to give my name i feel you know. if i if i ever take an incoming call here right? and then they want someone else's help or whatever else and er i can see that they're concerned that you know they have a concern or want something from me then and i pass on i some action to take place you know for you know i've on to somebody or someone said to him, i always give my name. say look it's kath if you have any problems ring us. i will say to you this is a full time job . you've got my name don't think we go away that you can't ring me up again. you know if you if you come across something you need help with phone me. i'd be i'm interested to know. if i get it's my job your success. and if you're struggling my job is to help you overcome those struggles and i i want you to consider i'm here er as a service to you. i'm not i'm not i'm here for you not you don't you're not here for me. you know what i mean. i'm working for you. and that's what i want you to feel like mandy i don't want you to feel that you've gotta do things for me. i do things for you. and i do that say that because i want you to be feel my commitment to what what we're trying to do here. now that's what you want when someone rings you up isn't it? they say look my name is and erm so i want you to think about how and talking about the way we talked about doing calls. don't just do what you normally do. if it's good share it. but if you think yeah that doesn't really achieve achieving nothing convincing feel that call. think about how you could say who you are. what could how could you explain what you're doing. what you're role is in this company. how d'ya explain that you know. how would people understand the function of that thing. how would be persuaded or give them the right image. we talked about image and mandy was talking about not preparing if we wanted these pictures to go out because we wanted erm create a not an illusion but a a perception of what was going on. what sort of build-up d'ya want to give me d'ya want people to have of you. you know. er of how would you get that across. and then say something. ask me a question and engage me in conversation or make a statement that applies to me. the customer that you're gonna choose on that b m s listing okay? and let's just work on this independently will you. don't work on it together and come up with the same. work on it as an independent idea. don't worry about it. oh my god this is absolutely terrible . don't worry. don't worry. that's we're here to help you put the words right you know. i want if you're struggling with it just throw something down and say, oh gosh i can't you know. bring it to the table and we'll work it out together. but some of you will come out with some lovely ideas and they always do all you know . there was one on the course erm monday and tuesday about how they introduce themselves. they didn't telephone or indoor sales executive indoor sales executives yes she did did she? yeah no that's now that's what is but she didn't say that she said er she said something else didn't she? i think she said i just had normal er i i can't remember. i'm responsible for your accounts in this area. or i'm responsible for erm and she did what she did rather than saying i'm the indoor sales exec or the the account handler or the telesales person who is or the distribution in your area. responsible for the distribution in your area. that's fine karen. yeah that sort of thing. it's how would you describe the per you know who karen is. i am responsible for er and then tell me why engage me in something about me. don't tell me anything about you. in what they do if you want to. but i want you to then engage me in something about my business. talk my language talk person to person. you're on my territory when you pick up the phone. you're in my office. okay? have a struggle with it and we'll discuss the opening question tomorrow because setting the scene is often the way the tone of the whole. they control initially and you know being feeling that you're part of it you're in charge of it can set the scene for the whole conversation. and can you've got this fear if you miss some of those . and then like you did about the subject here er me asking questions on the subject you want to do. think of your first couple of questions about that company. right? as soon as i'm going to be interested by what you first said and then where are you going to go to next. start start planning a strategy of questions to find out more. using the information on that that erm b m s. do not ask me what know already and go through this routine of what d'ya do who d'ya do where d'ya go. i don't wanna hear that stuff. they're all questions. but if you have that information you may want to confirm it's right. i know that you do this but am i right in saying you do this but and then move onto the question right? don't just it's additional information. and don't forget i want you to demonstrate listening back through the open question through the questions. i want you to conclude with a leading question. summarize if there's a need there right? remember what she said on that video film when when he when she wanted to do it for too holidays. she said what would happen if you were ill? what sort of question was that? i know the company can't do without you . what would happen if you were ill? you're you're actually saying what would would i be right in saying that there wouldn't er they'd have to without you if you were ill. but you you're asking in a more open way. leading question don't you? what would happen if you were ill? now that's the sort of thing sometimes you can't form those leading questions until you've heard the answers. like you couldn't remember we were going. couldn't really pull the leading question out the hat until you heard the answers. but that's what i want tomorrow morning we'll be looking at your preparation tonight on your call and i want i want you to tell me at the end of each why you chose the route you chose right? i want you to put across what you're gonna do and and ask a question and then tell us why you chose to go that route. what made you do it. you got nineteen out of twenty in a geography test? mr yeah. are sir i've just been recording you. yeah, i need the blue. i just recorded something mr has said. oh let me, let me talk to you. let me do it a minute. no seriously, mr said he got nineteen out of twen , out of a hundred. twenty. ninety ni , ninety ni , nineteen. nineteen out of a twenty. oh. i thought he said nineteen out of a hundred, that's why i recorded it. can i talk to you? no,sorry . no, turn it on. turn it on! just talk right. unfortunately i think the time has come to pack your things up oh dear! and leave the classroom. oi! it's a . it's not on. it's not that bad though. oi seriously, do you still fancy julia? speak then! why? turn it on. i don't wanna turn it on cos i no. go on. please? it's on innit? if it was on, i wouldn't be talking like this. you smell of wee! it's on, it's on, it's on. you don't really. and say it other people. what? say that what? again young lady. i'm just helping her look tomorrow. no sh ah!ever floods to make any gorges. this thing really stinks i'm not kidding you! what stinks? your mum? no.. robin. yeah, you know we've met anyone cos i yeah. yeah? well, no. it's this thing they're doing in norway. it's mr , er mr er ya , i've got a letter and stuff. what it is is, is all about erm they're studying your voice and like the way you change it and all what the different like and how the talking's different from how you talk, yes. exactly right. now with you, i dunno how i talk, but with my now he's talking like a swot. no. no, er if i was talking it's just that i've never met anyone as nice as you talk. ah ah! and i think you're lying quite sillily. ah thanks very much. say that really loudly zoe. why ? i still think you'll be sweet talking . there's nothing quite like a macdonalds . you don't wanna be stuck in here do you? no. don't mind. ha? no. i wanna see er, what's he called? the white men can't jump. oh. yeah, but how am i gonna get that out? well ben, i look fifteen and i've got it out for someone already. have ya? yeah. did you get it out for yourself? is erm, you mo , is there any films out yet? there's, there's . please. i don't like you. well has gavin had it? he got it out too. and, he also had another video. yes i know he had another video. don't bug me. but i've got a better one. and i yo , you haven't got it though. you know what i mean. i wou i'll put this in my coat. and there's a little bit in between. it won't take long to learn the song, cos there's nothing like, like a macdonalds . do you like that? are you sure you don't wanna come? how did you get that black eye ollie? pardon? you were playing snooker? what did you do, did you go push! please get to the back of the queue! sorry ! i'm fed up with ! but i think you're quite lying a lot. oh! right. can you put the chairs up please? and we now what would you do if i was recording this conversation? i'm afraid of that steven . you're not. aha! oh, you are. else you must come on! be . come on then. mm mm mm. oh i told you to let it rip. was it on eastern worlds and ? come on, we've gotta get out of here. come on, show us this thing. i've gotta clear my books though. see if you get out practising. rob , it's like rob ,ro rob for cathy. that's not true. cos i didn't fancy cathy and you lot are silly! could you play it now? yes. i'm gonna play this back to you to my, tonight so say i love you, i love you cathy. talk sensible. there you go cath no! i'm playing this back. you're not! you're not! erm ollie can you go away. sir, what am i gonna do about my bag? you'll have to go and see mrs . i have. i don't know if he's back. i'll go tomorrow. it's not even worth it. you're such a square robin, i don't know why. erm alright then. sir, do you want these back? no. you can keep them. well, alright, now that's enough. can you put them in your stuff. no you keep them. eh? mm mm mm. er, quiet when you leave then. sir, can you sign my book please? i can't. yeah. can i back to you? yes , i'm sure. can you buy me crisps? i haven't got any money. oh. oh. right. er er can you sign up there sir please? they're supposed to be all right. so th ah ha! thanks so much! i don't care about that. i've recorded that. wait for them down there. didn't you realize that was on then? yeah. mm mm. you started to listen. no, we didn't ask. robin. gotta get you as well. beat me up. i recorded that. i'm gonna say every time . ollie! you're going to, to say that every time. yes please. oh no! it don't take long to learn our song. there's nothing quite like a macdonalds . ronald. ah. did you do your homework? macdonalds . yes or no? what? the homework what for? we got. when for? anything? didn't, well, i didn't have any homework for anything. i got mine. you have got two pounds. no i haven't. there must be somebody. i haven't. spent! you have. it's been spent my friend. we well, leave please. tt! oh no! this is a ho sir hey jimmy! twenty four. sir, did you ever consider being an english teacher? twenty four. i, is it? yes i have. the well, that's fair enough. people to do it. ah ha yeah? yeah. . it can pick up whispering. well my mum went yes i am seeing jessie tonight ollie yo , i don't know why you want to know that. no . probably, no, actually i probably won't see her tonight come to think of it. going gym tonight? most probably. are you? why? no. i don't want to. you don't really go do you? hopefully you're lying. okay. just to check. when you walk in what's on the wall? the far wall? on the wall? where? far wall. i eh you don't go! i do go. alright then. i have been before. what's the picture where the bo , you know where the boxing bag is punching bag? no. punch bag, they do have a punch bag. no. eh, d'ya go then? well it's just those clip things, isn't it? and then you're lying! ollie you know where the step, you know the step machine have you ever had a go on it? doesn't matter. have you, have you had a go on the ro , erm, on the punch bag? no, i haven't. why? yes. yes? mm. so? it's hard! he's trying to come here robin yeah. up-to-date mm. by next lesson. what's worrying sir, that is if i haven't found my bag well sir, you haven't really said too much. you're chasing someone now? yeah? is there one good point in that sir at all? er no. i bet he's gonna say no . you have used the word good once. what? yeah, it's good riddance probably. or som yeah. well i said good didn't i? and you said to the children, good idea. you should record for the english no, and everyone elses, everyone else kept coming over to me. you didn't stop me trying. i'm going. come on let's go. right then. alright. ah shut up! i went to see the romeo and juliet thing yesterday. you, you didn't? i did. i got in. i lo , i might even be romeo. no. that was lucky. no. cos you gotta get off again. no ! yeah, but i didn't really think about it like that. yes you did. bleeding not! boring! do you want anything round the corner? have you been crying? what happened? what happened? talk to my microphone dear. let it all out! check this out! no your mum should check it out. yes. magic! oh this is what's it called? music. mum. could i have two pounds please? certainly robin. of course robin. ah ah see this. immediately darling. look i'm recording you. good. may yeah. you record. she go re seriously erm, i'm, you know that thing? what thing? you know the thing you went in for,, you said i could go in for recording? well, i was the only one that didn't get picked right? and there was seven people that went for it and only six could do it and, i wasn't gonna do it and what happened right, my name doesn't, wasn't picked out and er, there was this one boy, right that right, this boy called gavin and he wasn't there today. gavin who? gavin , he wasn't there. oh. that's why i did it. and he can't do it now. so why? . can i have another one penny? these are nice and shiny and gold, i like them! can you get me erm chewing i gum please? i got it yesterday didn't i? yeah, i need another one. see i'm a nice bloke aren't i? she doesn't answer. when er when er wow ! will you get me some please? no, i will get it for you! will you give me your money woman! shut up! can you imagine you talking to your mother like that? shut up woman! i'm listening! ah! hit me! hit me harder! when er when ow, when er when ow diddle er er, diddle er er weeow . er what was it called? do i have a hint? i think you are. that's a wicked idea i just got. pretty what? good isn't it? that's wicked! holding it recording? yeah. it's yeah. been recording all this time. suppose so. don't you reckon that's a good idea? i'm wired up. well like, like will because he's got his bag like that on that yeah. yeah. yeah. have you seen will? oh no. yeah, and it's like such a long thing. he's got a long plug hasn't he? no! oh. it's wired. oh! i know. he's been wired. and, he's put this in his type of thing and it's like he's got his arm stretched out right to his mouth and he's got a cigarette in his in his hand and it's that like . if you put that inside si ,. yes probably. what? cos you're so far away. your mum's dead! diddle ee doo, diddle ee ooh, doo . it's only a muffled sort of thing. oh yeah. i reckon that, that was a good id , i bet no one else has thought of that idea you know. why should you though? yeah but like if wanna catch someone out, like you go say you were talking to scott and i wanted to find out something and like i go scott, and like i'll be going up close to him, i'm literally doing this, i'm going scott? i don't give a toss get some stuff by someone, and he wouldn't notice. i know. and he'd be a complete gullible arsehole! but you go, er scott, now be honest, i felt like, put my arm on his shoulder like this scott. and he's not catching on and i'll just but why? be but why? and i'm just thinking like that, exactly . oh yeah. come on. and it'd be funny wouldn't it? yes it will. so, ha! da ba da ba da ba da, ba da ba ba da ba da, ba bo . are they open? ah! no don't say this is shut? ah good! good. said they hadn't shut. hello. hello. erm i need one of these erm, yeah you got one? these audio what's it called? which one? these. ah yeah. yeah, not those, erm, no, these. these are reducers. so you want the big one? yeah, the reducers, that's the ones. ga , no i need the small one you want the one going from the big to the small, or the small to the big? big to small. big to small. stereo or mono? er, oh stereo please. there you are then. there's a, what's the difference between them? i mean, what well one's stereo and one's mono really. yeah i , one's got two channels on it. oh! what the stereo one has two? the stereo's got two channels, yeah. that's wicked. yeah. okay. do you do, i'm just asking, i'm not sure, do you do them where you've got erm so you got this,th the big one mhm. and then you got a wire going and then it reduces to small, it's like an extension lead on these? no. we can make you one up if you know, you want one. how much do you reckon that'll cost? about two, about two, two pounds, two pounds er fifty. two pounds fifty? could you make one up? i mean, i wanna buy this but you better come in tomorrow, i'm closing now you see. yes. i can make you one up tomorrow. yeah i know i'm when, are you, when are you open? you open, you're not open on saturday are you? no we're closed saturday. we're open sunday morning. yeah. i'll come in the sunday morning and okay. collect it. okay. it's one forty nine. thanks. thank you. thank you. thank you. thanks. bye-bye. bye. ah,. wicked! . hello. hi ian. hello. ? no. oh. how are you? too bad. well, put it this way your sudden appearance has not made one bit of difference to my day. no, i was gonna say i feel fine. oh! please! don't do that please. it doesn't hurt. yes it does hurt. i was right . alright. i you. like penny did to me in my room today. yeah. that hurt. she went wham! did she do it on purpose? something got lost and i dunno what? did she do it on purpose d'ya know? ian, my friend, it is being sorted out in fact. which one does your mum get? stimerol. original. stimerol. original. ian. mm mm? what would you do mhm? if i was recording you at this precise moment? mm? you what? whe whe if i was recording you? mm. no. how many of you have been to county court? no. no. no. what an innocent lot. we are good. we are. how many of you' ve been before a judge? no. no. no. been to courts on purpose is, the cases. at one time i used to quite often go to the castle. yes. and they were very interesting, actually. i found it very interesting. yes. but never, er from the wrong side of the bench, you know never as a criminal. well, now,th this is where comes into his own, you see. yeah. you would be. once was tried in a way but a judge, er, tumbled to it, and it was at leicester castle. had things gone wrong with me, i may ultimately have been sent to prison. i was g , i was going to get to read the newspaper report in the mercury and the mail, and when i appeared at leicester castle before a judge, but er, i think, and i was going to give you a clue. but perhaps we'll forget about that now. i can hold my peace. it was, it was fifty-four ago, there's your clue. anyway, so i appeared before a judge, the only time when i've really been, he was judging me. yeah. another time i, more recently i appeared before a judge at norwich, as a wi , as a witness for people who have been unjustly treated. i only appear in court when other people have been unjustly treated. er, i've been before, when it was the assizes, at newark. then i didn't anticipate, i was yanked out of the back of the court, i'd gone there to see some proceedings with people i was involved with and all of a sudden the barrister for the defendant said, is a mr in court? so i got yanked out, mm. to go into the witness box, and that was interesting really, because that was a recorder then, now it's no longer, that's finished with now, isn't it. we don't have the assizes. th the crown court's taken the place of the assizes, i think, and then it was a shame, because it was very interesting. yes, you have a judge now at the, of the crown court, i think. any anyway, i appeared there, this was interesting because, being a friend, i didn't swear on the bible, it's something that's not brought up in these notes, you don't think it's quite an important thing, really, so the clerk of the court,with his bible, would you, you know, repeat this. so i said, i'm sorry, no i'm is it, the law officer, spur of the moment, i mean, i didn't know i was gonna finish up there. i said, i'm sorry i'm a quaker, i i will not, we don't believe in double standards. mm. and erm, the the clerk was in a flat spin, because he hadn't got a card, which said, i affirm that, what i say is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and the recorder himself was was about who got a paper for me to read out, then. so that was the time i've been before a recorder. er, the magistrate's court i've been to twice. the last time in norwich about six years ago, and then there were five magistrates out, and the sittings went on, for between two and three days. the norwich city council wanted to get a licence to be able to sell intoxicants at a new pop centre they were going to open, mainly for young people, and was a member of the labour party, incidentally, and and a county councillor, one of the city wards, had the cheek to go and oppose the whole of norwich city council i was nearly chucked out for that, i left before they could chuck me out, actually. er, and i got up and i protested about it, on the grounds that if they couldn't run a great big pop hall for, and i wholly agreed with the idea, of of them providing the facility. could have said, if if if the finances of that, depends on selling alcohol, then, i think it's time norwich city council made a stand, and say we're only going to sell non-alcoholic drinks. mm. firm there, incidentally, er, that's surprised me, going to a mar court, a a a court like that, purely when it was a, a application for a er drink licence, and still have to er, er . erm, the other time was, and this isn't a point, either, made in the notes, erm, when i was at, wells next the sea. i had been the first chairman of wells-next-the-sea, town council, but two or three years afterwards, we decided to turn, er, the old cinema, they wanted to turn the old cinema into a dance hall. i was an ordinary member of the council for that, i had done me two years chairmanship, and here again, i was naughty really, considered naughty. but next to the dance hall if we'd given them the licence to ha turn the cinema into a dance hall, there was this little old boy who lived just the other side of the road, in an old cottage, and he was over eighty. i knew he, i didn't know him, i didn't know him, but i do go and see him when i saw this case was covered up, and it seems to be utterly unreasonable that this poor old chap was going to have doors slamming and banging, and then people coming out the dance about midnight, and his whole life being disrupted, so i i turned on there, unknown to my own council, oh, they were cross with me. and i went to the magistrates and acted and and gave witness on behalf of this old gentleman. the town council were so stupid there,we they're, the magistrate threw it out, said, no, you can't have a licence, because it'd be too big a public nuisance, they decided to appeal. so then appears at norwich crown court, now the case before us, was a criminal case, so that the crown court can deal with civic cases as well as criminal cases, cos our cas , the next one was ours. and, i forget the name, it's, the chappie was still judge there, cos i saw his name recently. but when i went up to er, was called as a witness i, this was i amazed me, the jury judge said i wish to affirm, he wanted to know why. well, i reckon that's a bit of a cheek, really, if you prefer to affirm and swear on the bible, i don't see why they should challenge why you want to do one or the other. mm. so i said i'm a quaker. oh, that's alright then, mr so i think, we erm, anyway, the wells council lost it's case and was really in the bad books over that. but, er, so i've appeared in these places, purely because i'm, injustice, you know, stirs me up. and it's no good moaning, so has to go and do something about it, mm. mm. and get into trouble. er, but i hope, for the, for the, for the right cause. so that's why i've been rather, er, you know, had quite a bit of ex experience in the court. which is another point, really, that people i find even if they appeal for witnesses about something that's gone wrong, people are very hesitant, the majority of people in the community are frightened of being witnesses, mm. and unless we are prepared to, you know, to do this, er, we can't complain if there is injustice, it seems to me. now, today, i'm going to break away from the notes a little bit, cos i think, there's so many things you could bring, we could bring in, and i think some of the points made in the notes will naturally come out in our discussion. er, today and every day, almost, a question of the police, at the moment, there is this business going on, er, in in london, at stoke newington, over the fact that, the charges against the police for corruption, being involved with all sorts of things that they shouldn't, er, and we are living through a time, where the police is having to fight a battle for it's own respect. the police were originally formed from the community to represent the community, er, and to protect the community. that that's how it it started, that's why they weren't part of the force, is, police were part of a co community, and therefore to have respect for the police, seems to me quite vital if we are to have a real sense of of of justice and and fairness. i wonder what your views are, or wh what can be done, or whether anything can be done, er, to rebuild the respect for the police. well, that would begin, i think er, in the home. teaching young children the right from wrong, and why the police are there and, accepting them as friends, like we did when i lived in the village. the policeman knew everybody, and he was a very nice man, very firm, and he would deal with minor, youth troubles, you know, when we got the spate of trouble every now and then. give you clip on ear. he knew where they were and he used to jolly well, that's right. er, give them a good clout, and also, yeah. see the fathers and mothers and tell them you see, we we've had enough of this lot, were not having any more. we never had any serious trouble at all. cos it was nipped in the bud. the local policeman took it in hand, and nobody grumbled, if he gave them a good clout. no, well how many of us know our local policeman? we did, he used to come into our yes, but how many of us now, know our lo local policeman. yes. yeah. yes, how many of us now, yes. most days. have you got the local police? we don't know. yes. i've never seen one. we don't know. nobody ever tells us. no, i sometimes see them go right down our street in twos. there is one, isn't there. nearly always looking at the cars. there's a police car comes up here at twelve o'clock every night. it tu , it comes up very quietly. it turns at the top and goes straight. well, that's much use from the point of view of getting to know him, is it. no. no. erm, there's a local policeman, er, in the area around our church, he's come to speak finish in a little while. but er,talk about his work. but it's, i think it's the exception. erm. you never see a policeman at all. if you were, if you and they all say what a very nice man he is, too. you know, i wonder what would happen, if you went along to the norfolk street police station and said, will you please give us the name of our local policeman. i wonder if they would tell you of give you any i'm sure they would, yes, i'm sure. you think they would. i mean, we we have, er,com what they they call the community constable. yeah. mm erm, and, he's name's keith something, mm. er, and if ever an incident happens in our part of leicester, and there's a police statement about it, it's usually quoting him. you know, he's, he's been involved dealing with the case and he's told the press something about what's going on. mm. wh er, i mean, we have met him, once or twice, but that's as much as i can say, and it's been er su such a span of time, that i don't even know now, whether i would recognise him walking along the street. even though i have met him a couple of times. what would happen if we were to invite a policeman to come and address this group. i think he'd come. i think he'd be pleased to do it. yes. yes, they would. well, that's a practical thing they can do, isn't it. mm. mm. well we did a few years ago. mm. didn't he. did you, mm, mm. er, they they, they cut down at norfolk street. you know, i mean, it's not manned nearly as often as it used to be. no, they've cut us down, and different hours. no, there's the one. where we used to live, but, i mean, on the police, there, and i mean, that's the problem. they've cut down, mm. instead of having more, we've got less. yeah, that's right. i think we've been talking about two different interpretations of the word, respect. in much the same way as people talk about being god fearing. when when you talk about fearing god, you're not really talking about being frightened of him, you're talking about paying attention and doing what he wants you to do. and in the same way, interpretation of the word respect, was that you paid attention to the local bobby mm. because you knew he meant business, and he would achieve his end and living in the area with him. yes, but there's us. there's another meaning to the word respect, which is what is shown up by the stoke newington incident, and other similar incidents, in that, you can only respect somebody if they actually live up to the standards that they actually hold out to the rest of you. and i mean it, there is nothing worse for someone who is supposed to be upholding the law, to be found not themselves. letting it down. i agree with that. and i mean, that, i think that's the sort of respect which is draining away very quickly, mm. you know, with every incident that gets publicised, it weakens their position even more. yes, that's the other side of the coin, isn't it, i mean, we we should teach our young people to respect the police, at at the same time, the police should be ready to earn their respect. yes. quite. i think most of them are, but it's it's up, it's up to them to clean their act up. it's the minority that yeah. get in papers, and we read all about, i mean it, it's the same in every situation, isn't it, that the few it is. it is. can spoil it for the many. oh, yes. i think we might remind ourselves that justice begins in court, not on the street. no, i think if we are not talking about the police, we are talking about justice for all. if the police start trying to administer justice, in the way of trying, by planting drugs on innocent people, for example. oh yeah. while they, well, we can say that the police are being unjust, but the police have nothing to do with justice. the police are only concerned with catching the offender and delivering him or her to the law so that justice can be done. that's not strictly true, because in our country, the police are also involved in gathering evidence which is largely put to the service of the prosecution, rather than the defence. so they an invidious position in this country, that they are not only catching the suspect, but they're also siding against the suspect even before he's gone on trial. that's right. this, i think, was the point that was trying to point out, about the scottish system and the french system, that they have this independent investigating magistrates structure, so that erm, the police don't so much become involved in one side of the case. but whatever the police discover, erm, is made available to both sides more readily. yeah. and hopefully, justice is is done. and if we're gonna start talking about paying the police by results, that's going to encourage them, isn't it, to er, to to press for for for conviction. well, this is, this is point, isn't it, yes. that they're really, they're to arrest first and foremost, they're, they're to arrest the suspect,and bring that person before the er, judging magistrate, or the judge, whatever the case may be, and the, and has made, made out that it is a disadvantage therefore, if they are also expected to bring evidence, as, for the prosecution. that's right. mm. cos you get the situation now, where they, choose not to charge a person, because it isn't worth it. because they know that by the time he gets to court, he'll be thrown out, and all the time will be wasted, mm. you know. so is it the magistrate who issues the search warrant, er, and the police go in and search the house for drugs or anything. mm. is it the magistrate or it used to be. yeah. i'm not sure wh g who who grants the warrant, do you. no. no. used to be the magistrate, at one time, yes. but i mean, people see the police go in, breaking somebody's door and going in. naturally they probably think the police are up to no good. they probably don't realise wh , they've got er, er, a warrant from the magistrate to go and do that, mm. or evict someone. the police have to do that. can i jump from this, they're all interconnected, over to question of magistrates, one of the questions in the notes, really, it points out that there are about, not quite, but er, about two third of magistrates are men, and about a third women, erm, is there, is that because of history, and shall, because they're are more women than men, i mean logically, because there are more women than men in the community, there should be more women magistrates than men, shouldn't there, on the on the basis of presentation, i take it that, i don't know the figures, but i take it that er, more and more women now are er, being, accepting,the called, of course, to be magistrate, you didn't have any choice once, do you in a way. no. you can't volunteer, you have to be, you have to be chosen. to be chosen, women. mm. quite a lot of women, on the prosecution side. well look, representatives, i've known three magistrates in my life. one was a a a business man, the other was er, trade union official, and the other was a housewife, which seemed to me to be badly representative yes. of, if you take that as a as a reasonable example. the the variety doesn't make the point, that it is the chancellor er, who er, the lord chancellor, i should say, who who appoints magistrates, but it isn't, that make the point, which i think, is very important, is how do the names get to the lord chancellor's office. yes, i was, i was going to ask that, try and explain that. well, it's bound to be some body, but, i mean, what we movement, could erm, that's right. partition the the lord chancellor that we think so and so that's right. would be a jolly good magistrate. but would, would you find often, it's the erm, political party, i mean, i know two and who were both erm, names put forward by the labour party yes. in rochford and in huddersfield, you know. mm. that's a point i was going to make, but as far as i can tell in en masse, the main, the main nominated bodies have been of political parties. yes. they often have a very small percentage of the population anyway, and er i'm glad we've brought this matter up, because i think that is something which needs further investigation, that the the ordinary public and the many little,or the millions of voluntary organisations ought to be encouraged to have a more output in forwarding names. yes, quite, i agree. we ought to be forwarding names. if there was anybody young enough, for i agree. i don't know what record the adult schools have of nominating i don't, i doubt whether we've ever nominated anybody, on leicestershire. nationally. i would think so. i would be very surprised if it it smacks surely, of of whether these many old boy networks, that we're famous for in this country, mm. i mean, if you don't tell anybody that their, that they can submit names, they're not going to submit names, because they don't think they're eligible to do so, no, i don't and so the whole thing perpetuates itself. no, i think a lot of the nominations are made by the existing bench so in that sense, it's that we're incestuous. yeah, yes, it's, it's the old boy network, again, in in a way. yeah. er, it's i i maybe wrong about that, i mean. can we ca will the chancellor accept, er, er, er ap an nomination from this group, for instance. oh, yes. oh, yes. oh, yes. or, or a street, oh, yes. why shouldn't a street do it. would he? oh. oh, yes. but. i didn't realise that, no. i mean, i don't, we don't know what the process is, of get you know, the step by step until it gets to the cha lord chancellor, do we. no, it's obviously civil servants deal deal with it. what's your view about. do you think there should be as many women as men as magistrates? no, i don't think so. i mean, put i think it's depends on personality and character. yeah, it's quite im it's quite important in the same way, that it's quite important that we have so few women m ps. i mean, i think it, i think it says quite a lot about our society. i'm not suggesting that erm, women magistrates would necessarily be any more just than men magistrates. but on the other hand, if they are supposed to be representatives of our society, then there's obviously something wrong, when there are so few women, compared with so few men. just as it's wrong that there should be so few women m ps. but can because we are fifty per cent, if not more so, of the population. at the same time, if we accept, accept the principle of the equality of the sexes, the proportions no longer matter. you can't have it both ways. if you're thinking of something like, administering justice, i'm thinking general. no, i, if you let me finish what i'm saying. there is, everybody has to acknowledge that there is a difference in the interpretation of what constitutes justice and one only has to see er, the sorts of attitude that are put across by certain judges, as to, erm, rape cases, and abuse cases, and how they, the press would have us believe, pat people over the head and tell them to go away and not do it again. i mean, i think, there is something there that needs pursuing, i'm not accusing all judges of being, inherently, you know, nutty, or, whatever, but, the number of cases that have come to light in the last few years, whether it's because the press have just decided to home in on them, mm. or whether there is really a situation there, which probably has been going on since time in memorial, that we've only just started to hear about it. mm. well, you you're, you er,have us believe, er ra raises a very important issue, i think. i mean, what we know about what goes off in the courts,i is is entirely dependent on which particular reporter happens to be reporting. yes. er, i mean, if if you take an an average case, which may last three or four days, and there's a lot of evidence of one sort or another, that's heard and weighed, and considered, and it it boiled down to one paragraph in the newspaper, and who, who chooses to its, to report wh , to report which, the reporter. mm. you know, if if he's got a particular bias, then he'll, he'll weight his report in the favour of that bias. irrespective of wh what's gone on over the whole period of the trial. so it's very deli dangerous, i think, to take too much notice of what appears in the press. it's it's the only thing you have it's the only thing you have, but if you're television if you were in court, and under trial, you might come to an entirely different conclusion. and in any case, it's most likely that it was a completely misleading headline in the press. yeah. yes. yes. can i i would still find it very hard to believe that any evidence of mitigation would justify a non-custodial sentence, to someone who has broken twenty-three bones in their child's body. mm. mm. mm. a babe in arms. what sort of mitigation could justify that? nothing. well, that's amazing, and that's an, that's an extreme case, i think, i don't there is no mitigation for things like that. they should be, i think they should be finished. we ought not to have to keep them until they're about seventy, in nearly the lap of luxury. just top 'em, get rid of 'em. what happens to christian mercy then. mm. what happens to christian mercy then, and hope that rehabilitation to do it. see them off. if i was, er, at the time of elizabeth, she'd had had their head off. i i wouldn't have them hanging out, and we've got to keep them. i don't believe in 'em. i believe in seeing them off. getting rid of 'em. i mean, they are scum, after all, people that do these dreadful things. well, apparently, then, they're not fit to be alive, apparently so, but as, as er, says, but as far as i'm concerned, they not. they they could have their reasons. we might have caused it to happen to them. when i say, we, i mean, you know mm. what they've experienced previously in society. in society. society, yes. society. can i, can i connect this with the notes, because it does raise the point about er, the judges, whether they should have retired er earlier, and it also involves another matter, i think. they have come in for quite a bit of stick, particularly when they've been dealing with rape cases. er, of course, it is, the er, it is a self perpetu situation where, the law lords are are the highest er, the highest level of justice in the land, aren't they, the law lords, mm. and the one very much questions er, really their suitability for taking some decisions, and i would like to know your views about, where you've got rape cases, wouldn't it make sense if there was a a male judge and a female judge taking the case. now i've not seen this suggested, but it seems to me a fair way of doing it. it should be, i think it should be so. it should be more than one person deciding it. i think. mm. are we thinking of the court of appeal or are we thinking of a trial by jury. now there's a difference here, yes. soon as you start talking about more than one judge, you you getting into the appeal court area, aren't you. i i was thinking of it now, as as normally as a normal crown court case, mm. and having two, where normally reside over a judge, i mean, there aren't many women judges yet, but there are qui er increasing numbers, oh, yes. and i think in rape, it does seem to me, quite absurd that an old gentleman of seventy-five should be judging it. mm. now erm, yeah. knowing, knowing the tremendous changes in our society. he can't really be in touch with the twenty years olds. do we, do we think that generally speaking, our judges are in touch with public opinion, generally. no. or is it, is it that they've become a sort of exclusive club, arising al almost always through the ranks of the of the law, and gradually, gradually got withdrawn from the way that ordinary people think and feel. i i i i think that there is a peculiar problem here, and, and that is, that whilst i will fully agree with that judges should be kept or keep in touch with the usages and habits of modern society and how it's changing. at the same time, it is essentially, if justice is to be done, and this is what we're talking about, that a judge should also be detached and how you can balance detachment with knowledge. mm. it's not easy. mm. it's not easy, is it. no, it's not easy, by any means. but the de the has arisen where a judge has passed a personal view about a woman, hasn't he. this is what's caused the trouble. yeah. yes. he's not been given a legal decision, he's passed an opinion, saying oh, this, this woman, was, you know, encouraging the man, and things like that, and that's what gets people's backs up, i think. one wonders, how much erm, and to use a word that would be used in other areas, retraining goes on, amongst the judiciary or do they just get to this pinnacle, and then hold it against all comers, until they choose to retire, i mean, in any other, er, job where you have a peculiar expertise, like that, you would be expected to update yourself, to keep up with the trends, you would be sent away to conferences, and retraining courses. i think that does happen. i mean, i i i i wonder how much does go on, of that nature. well, something goes on, i i'm i do know,th there was a reference to it recently. mhm. about a judges, i think it's a one-day, just a one-day seminar, or something like that. mm. where they have retraining, but it didn't amount to very much. i didn't think. but but at the same time, disappointed, for one thing because he is experienced, yeah. he's worked he's way up through various branches of the law, he he's practically certain to being a q c and then a recorder, you know mm. worked up the ladder, but, what's required in a judge, i would say,put putting for the moment, what we've just been discussing on the side, that is, any question of bias, or sex bias,a judge is there in court, to perform an intellectual . he is there to listen to the evidence, to present the evidence to the jury, the jury then, say, whether the man in the dock or woman in the dock or whatever's in the dock, is guilty or not guilty. the judge then, bearing in mind, all that he knows, and all that he's been told about the guilty person, proceeds to pass sentence. now i say, that that is an intellectual exercise, as soon as it becomes an emotional exercise that's the end of justice. that's right, yeah. yeah. or it could be the beginning of justice and the end of administering the law, because, how much of what goes on in court is actually administering the law, rather than determining natural justice. i mean, you have had cases, of people who have killed somebody. perhaps they've given an overdose of pain killers, or sleeping tablets to an ailing elderly relative. perhaps at that requ , perhaps at that relatives request. now in the eyes of the law, they have committed a crime, but if you put that situation before a jury, and even though the judge may instruct the jury, a crime has been committed, you must find them guilty, the jury's inclination will probably be to say, natural justice, you, that you you done what was required of you, that you don't deserve to be either convicted or sent to prison for it. yes, right. so what, there is a difference between administering the letter of the law and and the real justice of a particular situation, being achieved. mm. mm. of course, the the essential thing in a case like that is , that it's been established who administered the tablets and why or whatever, and why they ad why why they administered them, isn't it. mhm. this is what, this is what we're looking for, we're not thinking now particularly about either what recommendation they, the jury foreman makes, or what sentence the judge passes, the fact is that the truth or one would hope so, has been established. then you can start to think about, in what way can justice best be done in this particular case. i say it, we're we're all the time, we're we're mixing up justice and law and all kinds of things. mm. it's very difficult to separate them, isn't it. oh, yes. yeah. it is. oh, yes. could i, what, what is not, touched on in the notes, but is, i i think the other side of the coin is that, if justice means treating people fairly, this is on the basis of treating the accused fairly. but what about people who had the wrong, inflicted upon them, isn't that equally a matter of justice we only now seem to be getting round to recognising it. recognising, that's true. that's right, yes it isn't brought up in these notes, which i i mean, who funds them, are they completely charitable, or no. no. some of it comes from the government, and some from the local authorities, but it's been cut back. yeah. done it with probation service, paid money to them, but now, they can't do that, they've got to give the money for the prisoners, er, not for the, not for the victims of the crime. that's right. mm. which seems all wrong. i think there is some room for suggesting that, erm, in certain circumstances, the actual perpetrator of the crime, could make retribution to the victim. you know, where where it's been a case of vandalism or petty theft. yeah but you also have to take into consideration, the feelings of victims, i mean, it it would have to be, erm, only with their agreement, yes. i mean, if somebody was petrified of setting eyes on the youth again, then it wouldn't do them much good, for him to be sent to make good what damage he's done to their house, or, yes, it wants very delicate handling, i suppose. well, the this friend of ours, the er, director of victims and crime, er, we we have somebody at church who was burgled. she is an elderly person, lives on her own, and er, he made a suggestion to her that she went with him to prison, to face the man, well, i don't whether it was the actual man, but men that had done burglaries, you see. and she said she'd go, in fact, i i i had fellowship on, because, remember we started on that tuesday, i said, well, you'll all be surprised to know that going to prison tomorrow. er, but she went, and she was, she said, that the men that she faced, one out of those, had never realised what he'd done, the trauma he'd caused, that what he was getting, because he'd never given a thought to the people he was erm, burgling. and when said what it had meant to her, loosing personal jewellery and things that was sentimental value to, you know, the family that had died, and they were the only things she'd got to remember them by, and so on. he really was brought up in his tracks, and said, when he brought her home, well if that only made one person think, it's been worth it. mm. so, you know, but he's he's very bitter er, he's an ex-policeman, himself. and he's very bitter about the way the victims are treated. think about it and the way the criminals are treated too. yes, yes, that's right. in fact, he was telling me only the other week, about the the number of criminals that he knows, they're serving their they're serving sentences, and they're only one thing they're longing and hoping for, it is get out, so they can knock another old lady down, mm. and and go and get some money and sell it, sell it in the car boot sale, and get back to prison all over again. nothing to worry about, no expenses, everything's taken care of, the only thing they haven't got is their freedom, but they've got everything else. mm. they've got more than the people have outside. yes. i think, i think most criminals, i mean, there there must be one or two who er er, too dangerous to be let loose on society, yeah. but i think most criminals would probably benefit more, from being made to face, er, yes. what they've done to society. i mean, if somebody can't actually go back to the person they've harmed in a in a one to one situation, there's no reason why they shouldn't be doing some other form of community service. that's right, i agree. cos, as you say, if if they do have to come to grips with their fellow man,to be at least some of them who are going to be impressed by that. but how you can expect people to become more sociable by just being, you know, shut behind closed walls, and and not having to actually, fend for themselves and cope with life outside prison walls. it doesn't seem to make sense to me. i think there's also the type very often these people have left a family, a wife and children behind mm. and maybe they're not facing up to that responsibility. mm. it could be seen in some cases as, maybe escapism,we don't give enough thought to the wife and kids who've got dad er, er, in in court. no that, that's very true. but i wonder having said that justice is a matter of treating people fairly, not only punishing them, presumably, in a fair way, deciding what is a fair way to treat, justly whether a person who's done something anti-social, is part of that fairness, trying to get them to see the the evil that they've done. but, or is it just punishment, full top. no you can't lock them up and throw away the key, that's that's, in a christian society, that's not on, you've got to do something to help them to rehabilitate themselves. want to repent, for what they done. but how far that that goes in prisons, i i don't know. but there are people that go into prisons, aren't there, to to help them, i mean, there are councillors, and er, and people going into to give them interest in life,i mean, goes into teaching erm, er,park parkway, doesn't he. but it's again one of those things which appear to be under financial pressure, i mean, one of our most respected adult school members at national level was actually awarded the m b e for his work in wandsworth prison, where he ran an adult school for thirty years. erm, he finally had to shut the adult school, not because the prisoners weren't interested in in attending any more, but because the prison officers and the governor weren't able to provide the man-power to to cover the existence of that class. mm. erm. there's a little bit more to it than that. yes, there is, yes. yes. oh aye. it was cos the prison, the warders, resented somebody going in and and doing this for them. if anybody went into the prison, they had to be paid. they weren't having any volunteers in. th this this was putting it very simply. mm. mm. i mean, if anyone saw that television programme a couple of weeks ago, about those prisoners who put on guys and dolls, mm. where they were, the the prisoners were the chorus and and they had a local operatic society made the erm, and they did remarkably well, you know, taking it over, they were really very acceptable at the end, but the whole programme had this sub-plot of how antagonistic most of the prison officers were, not all of them, cos they obviously has some support to keep it going, but a lot of them were antagonistic towards what was going on, and not only that but just the the prison system, you know, this chap got transferred from one prison to another, when he was mid-way through rehearsals, you know, i mean why shouldn't he have stayed there, mm. and completed this, this wonderful piece of thera therapy, which it was for him, mm. before they transferred him to another prison. i mean,wh what was the common sense of that sort of bureaucracy stamping on people. well he must have been transferred for some reason or other. oh, why. we well, that's something we don't know. there may have been other prisoners. i mean they wouldn't willy nilly, would they. perhaps he was being treated badly. i mean, in fact, in fact. the implication was that there was no flexibility in the decision, it could have been held back, perhaps because he was involved in this, if you like, opportunity of a lifetime. mm. well, not to so long, er, i was going to hampshire's to get bread, and as i was going in, and this fellow was coming out, he hands with me. ooh, and then he got, he got on the bus, it was a midland red and it was going to erm, er where, it was going out of town, anyway, and he shook hands with the driver, because i couldn't help but, you know, notice what he was doing, and when i got when i was in the shop and getting the bread, the girls in there were telling me that he shook hands with them, because he had just got out of prison, and he was a born again christian. ah. mm. and that's what had happened to him in the prison, because someone said, i wonder how long that will last. yeah. i'm afraid i'm a bit of a cynic mm. but that's what he was saying. mm. can i touch on another thing, which i think, hasn't been mentioned in the notes, but is very much in our minds. that is the long period where people are remanded. there has been some very unfortunate suicides, oh, yes, yeah. which is all our responsibility, presumably that delay is because we aren't providing sufficient judges or sufficient services to er, er, to try them in a much shorter term. that seems to me, a very evil thing, if people are kept in prison for months before they've been found guilty. for years sometimes. no, they've not even been charged. no, they're, they're i mean, they're not, they're not criminals, in the eyes of the law, they're innocent until they're proved guilty. they're innocent until they're proven guilty. is it the fault, is it the fault of the judicial system, though, or is it the fault of the lawyers. it's partly the fault of the lawyers, it's partly the fault of the police, who have lots and lots and lots of paperwork to do mm. before these, before these cases can be brought to the court. and an an and very, very often but in scotland they seem to manage to with them. they haven't got the man-power to to do all this paperwork. that, that is one reason for the delay. another reason is, the lawyers. used to say, that cases used to come before her court in in rochdale, and it was an absolute disgrace that they ever came to court. and that, the lawyers would spin them out mm. yeah. for about three days, when they could have been one day. cos they're being paid by the hour. yes. yeah, yeah. said it was an absolute disgrace. yeah. er, this refers back to something said, a little while ago, talking about the fitness of judges, having come up through the legal system. i mean, having heard criticisms of how lawyers behave, and having heard people say, how can you defend someone when you know jolly well they're guilty and this kind of thing. how does that fit you to become a judge. if you've actually be wangling system on your way up, which is what most of us seem to do at one time or another. oh, they do, they definitely could do. mm. i think regarding the number of people who are in prison, whether on remand or otherwise, erm, reminds me of something that that i keep noticing, either hear it on the radio or in the paper. but somebody has been sent to prison, they are the sort of person who you would think of, should never be sent to prison, somebody who has diddled his firm out of a couple of thousand. that man is not a menace to society, and there are a great many other similar people who should never be in prison. i don't know, i don't know how you could deal with them justly. how any reparation could be made, and talking about reparation, this business over absent fathers, er, has just killed that idea of us getting more and more in that kind of way, but i'm sure there are many people, and i'm not thinking about those who have been, committed an act of violence, and said, well they might do it again, but say, i'm pretty sure people who have been committed in effect of what you could call civil crimes, that is putting their hand in the drawer, should never be in prison. if anybody wants to employ them, they should know before, and then employ them at their own risk. and they can, i mean, they can even continue with original employer and work as you might say, for nothing, until they've paid back, what they took. well, that's could do. yes, that's right. there's plenty of room for that sort of thing. mm. i mean, that flies in the face of all the current pressures, all of the current political about, if you're a naughty boy, into prison you go, and for the longer the better. and now we have another er, sub-crop of people who have been discharged into community care from mental hospitals, mm. mm. who are not sufficiently in control of themselves to take their medication, and then they become paranoid or manic, and they, erm, commit social crimes again, and so they're part part of the treadmill, too. mm. they're not criminals in the real sense of criminality, but that's where they end up, because that's the only dustbin they can send them to. mm. who was it that said, the law's an ass. mm. one thing, times no. it was the beadle in oliver twist. oh, yes, yes, that's right. mr bumble. times running out, but the local thing, not the local, that's the thing, er, appeared on on, er, the news tonight, er what happened, announced by home secretary, i think it was, there, i'm not quite sure, where children under er, children under sixteen, if they er, do not er, abide by the instruction of the juvenile court where they have conducted misdemeanours. the parents can now be fined up to a thousand pounds for the children, because they haven't carried out the instructions of the court. that seems to me, to need a lot of thinking about, because if you've got difficult children,ra the last thing we want to do is think you've got a thousand pound fine or so. anyway, if you can't pay it, what do they do with them. yeah. i i'm, this doesn't seem to me, a very intelligent way, i i, somehow or other you've got to get the parents, win them to behave properly towards the children without the threat of a heavy fine on their head. i mean, there's a, i mean, the consequence of a heavy fine, the next thing is they'll be in prison, cos they haven't paid a fine. where does it end. but the story goes that money speaks, and some people, some parents, if they get hit in the pocket, will probably take more notice of their child, yeah. than they've taken for months or years before. yes, i think that's if you, if your dog goes and bites somebody,an , you're in trouble, because you've let him get out of control, and yes. mm. but if your child goes and burns a a school down, he he gets away with it. mm. that doesn't seem right to me. yeah. they shouldn't, they shouldn't. parents should be held to some degree, not necessarily to a tune of a thousand pound, but they should be made in some way, to be responsible for their yeah, but i agree, it's just a question of the way you do it. it seems a very clumsy way of, just thinking of terms of financial. well, well it's it's what, as has said, it's it's the best way to get people. pay up. they are some parents that do bringing out a book. oh aye, well will will know, and my daughter says, if she's got children that are a real problem, she'd want to know what their homes like, and that usually gives an answer, which you too. mm. erm, we've got a friend that was erm, a store detective, in fact, it's the wife of the er, victim of crime support group. she was a store detective and she caught a child, at shop-lifting. the the ruling is, that if you catch a child you take her and keep her in the office and send for the parents. well she sent for, her mother came, and er, when she came in, explained to her, why she'd sent for her, and she smacked the child across the face, and said, there was no need to do that. she said, that's for getting caught. oh. yeah. well, now what, now what chance does that child have of of growing up. now those sort of parents need something to i mean yes, that's right. to catch them. i mean, in a much more, erm, a le a less severe example, but we're having a road safety week, at school, this week, erm, and it was my class's turn, yesterday afternoon, so i was just there keeping a watching brief with my my children while the, road safety representative was talking to them, and she put them us through the usual hoops of erm, did any of them play on the roadside un unattended. had any of them crossed the road on their own. bearing in mind that they're only six and seven in my class, er, and then talking erm, about how they travelled in cars, and and how many of them had ridden in the front seat, er, and most of them put their hands up, and i mean, the recommendation is that if you're under twelve years of age, you should never ride in the front seat, and so on and so forth. erm, and i mean, i i was just cringing after that, hearing all these, minor horror stories coming coming out, and then to cap it all, one little girl put her hand up and said erm, my daddy was stopped by the police once for not wearing his seat-belt. presumably he was driving. mm. erm, er, and he got a ticket, and he had to, you know, you have to take this ticket to the police station for not having worn his seat-belt. erm, so he always looks out for police cars now, but he still won't wear his belt. oh. so i mean, several of us, as teachers, have got together today, and said, it's not the children who need road safety instructions it's the parents, the adults and in the same way, if if they're being given that example, mm. of how to worm their way round things all the time, rather than follow the rules. mm, yes, that's right. well, they're going to be brought up dishonest. it starts small, and it gets big. yes, it does, yeah. well, i i mean, we all bends the rules to our own advantage from time to time, i mean, nobody pretends they're whiter than white. but, there are vary degrees in everything, aren't there. yeah. well, the concern is to to er, punish the children in a way, that they will realise they're going to wrong way. but at the moment, you feel as if they're getting patted on the head and it's giving them a push down the wrong way. i feel very sorry for for the parents of jamie oh, yes. i mean, who can help but feel other than sorry for them, but for them to to burst out and say that those two little boys, which is all that they are, mm. let's face it, you know, deserve to be locked up for the rest of their natural lives. that's not going to serve any purpose whatsoever right, no. on the other hand, unless they get help while they're locked up, mm. you know, they won't be any better. they won't be any better. that's the whole point, isn't it. in any case, even though they chose a a minimum sentence, they'll be twenty or twenty one yeah, yeah. it's it's as long as they've lived already, practically, yes. but it's perfectly natural, isn't it. oh, yes. oh, absolutely. i mean, it's perfectly natural for his parents to be like that. oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah. i mean, wouldn't we think. oh certainly would. i mean, we would, we would,probably want to come out and you know. coming down to children er, are doing wilful damage and er graffiti and all this sort of thing. i do think when they're caught, they are, to me it seems as if they ought to be made to clear up some graffiti and and realise what they're doing because, i don't think half the time, they realise the the upset they cause. no. we had some little boys at the end there, throwing sticks up at a chestnut tree, or you know, oh yeah. and erm, i went along, look at all this mess. oh, we're we're clear it up. i said, erm, what you doing throwing sticks up, where where the stick. oh, it's up there,it fell down and erm, went along and picked it up, so i took it off them, and said, how would you like it if i threw sticks at you,anyway, they said, oh i'm sorry, you know, they they sort of cleared everything up and went off. but, i mean, often when you go and approach children like that, you find, that you know, all you get is a mouthful of yes, that's true, yes. i'm afraid, you know, that it's it's a shame because of, i i feel that if they are stopped like that, to be talked to and quietly and point out, you know, what they mm. doing wrong, and that, you know, they'll go away, but so often these days, of course, the parents all they all take no notice, yeah, silly old fool, you know. mm. well, i was going to say, at last year at my friends house, and they have all open front, beautiful frontage, nice big house they are, and two kiddies on bikes started riding down the, across the front gardens instead of on the pavement, or the road, and she said to me, oh, i'll stop this, i'm not having this. cos there was lawns and flower beds and everything, you see, and they was going over it. and her husband, go and give them a clout, so she said, no, and she walked up to them, and quietly said, mm. where do you live? they told her where they lived, just up the road. well, she said, i think i'll get my bike out, yes. yes. and come and ride over your mother's front garden and and see what she thinks. mm. and they said, oh no. she said, oh yes. this is where i live and you're running all over it like this and spoiling it. i shall have to come and do it to your mother and see what she thinks. and they they went away like lambs, you know, really they was shocked. their their mother's front lawn could very well been a wilderness. that's true. couldn't spoil it if you tried. no, that's true. oh. well, i think she said, she had found when dealing with some of these of kids up where they live, that erm, a quiet talk there and then, only talk. well, yes. better than if you shout. better than if you shout. i think that depends on where you live. well, there very posh houses in the road. yeah, but i mean, can you imagine paying for that, some of the lot that live on yeah. an estate, you know. well, i well, it's worth trying, anyway, i mean. i came out of church one day, to do some visiting, from the over sixties, and there was a boy with a a great chunk of rock in his hand, and he was looking at the window. well, we've had an awful lot of damage to the church. in fact, on all the windows wired up now, and i walked up to him, and i just said, would you like to give to me, son, and he turned round and looked at me, and to my great surprise he gave it to me. i didn't know what to do with it. so surprised but i said, well look, i think i'd better put it in my bag, don't you, it won't do any harm there. and, he looked at me, and said, i'm sorry. but then behind me came a lot of other lads, yeah. you great fool, what did you do that for. and when they're all together, that that's when the problem is. that's when the trouble starts. that's that's when the trouble is. mm. mm. but that's the same with any group, whatever age, isn't it. you're being encouraged from being yeah. yeah. oh, yes. but i, i mean, i i think it's true to say, that ninety-nine times out of a hundred, if you do approach these so-called yobs as if they're human beings, they usually react like human beings. it pays to do it it does, yeah. i think so. it is not easy to approach them in a situation like that, without being angry. no. no. the clue, i i'm sure if i made a mistakes like that, it's because it's, you know, maybe angry and i made the wrong approach. mm. i must tell you that when we lived in morley, in, up in yorkshire, we erm, we were having trouble with some yobbos coming up from leeds, you know, and we had, there was an old sergeant in in morley, you know,for years, and tall. well, very well known, i can't remember his name now, but he he had two methods of getting rid of them, erm. one they were going into a pub, and going into the toilets, you know, making a, so he had a a policeman waiting in and the toilets, for them you see, and the o one other, notable occasion he was seen chasing them down the main street in morley, he got his cape on, you see, he was boom, whacking them with his cape, sort of chasing them out of town, you know, and i must say, they never came back. it's like a matador yes. i know. yes. well the subject was, was er, justice for all, fact or fiction. and we had a bit of both. would, would. we they guessed, has anyone guessed. yeah, well, i might. you you know, then. yeah. would you like to hear the cutting. it's only fifty old years old. mm. but it's in my little green bag somewhere, do you know where it is. put on floor here, my little green plastic bag. you should read it, it's f each if i can find it. pages forty six and forty seven please. and you'll er you'll need a piece of paper. pages forty six and forty seven and you'll need a piece of paper to do the work on. sir someone's got my book so i'm having this one if it's alright. good. would you please bring your chairs and that table over here so that we're all together round this table thank you. it might be an idea actually if we moved out just a little bit tracey. what? let everybody else in. right your title should be syrinx by debussy. copy it from the top of page forty six and we are then ready to proceed. you will also need to manage to perform this er task accurately a piece of manuscript paper. so while you're finishing heading your bits and pieces up would you like to pass some of them round. and i will find a little more from devious places for you. this'll do there. right. another four here. how many people still need manuscript paper? the intelligent amongst us have already been looking at the questions on page forty seven and realizing that despite the weirdness of the sound of this music there are some quite direct things that can be asked. there's a s a definite explanation of terms that you see in the music written at the top of page forty seven would you look at them please. because debussy being french the instructions here aren't written in the usual language which you come across which is italian. yes? sir may i take a keyboard provided it is returned at the end yes please. or even in german which is the second language of music we're looking at instructions in french. so tres modere is and as the explanation gives you at a very moderate speed. that means quite a slow speed in practice. where you look please at the word retinue which is figure two it means ritardando a bit slower. number three un peu movemente mais tres peu means a little faster but very little. so it only moves a bit faster there. ceder that's in bar fifteen number four means slower. rubato means not in strict time. that's a standard italian word and it's been mixed in amongst all the french rubato. you've got au movement tres modere which means in french at the original speed very moderate again of course okay? en retenant jusque a la pas number seven there getting slower right up to the end very obviously. you've got marc underneath which means marcato give a little push at the beginning of the note if you have to. don't forget this is a wind player playing a flautist. so if you're marking the sound you've got to give a little more air to it more wind. tres retinue near the end there getting much slower. okay as opposed to just the retinue which means a little slower. and finally peu de doci which is not french but is again italian peu de doci means dying away. peu de doci means quite literally getting lost. so if you want to get rid of somebody you can go and tell them to peu de doci which means getting lost. okay i know we moved on to the next piece last week we will start again on that tomorrow. i want to complete our previous work first. so there are twelve questions here. you are going to hear the music several times. look with me now at the twelve questions. some of these you can answer directly because we've already the music. for instance for question one you could all answer it now. the answer would be? i can't flute. flute thank you darren. look carefully at the music of the first two bars then write the music of bar three. ah that means you've got to listen carefully to what happens. do please remember that echoes are used repeats of things are used. it may be that some of it is a repeat. it asks you to draw five empty bars to represent the music for bars four to eight. do not copy the notes but underneath the stave write marks to show where the music gets louder crescendo marks and softer diminuendo marks. now you can do this if you wish of course on ordinary plain paper because all you need to do to create your five empty bars i would suggest is we'll assume that's your thing there. one two three four five. okay and if say it crescendoed in bar two you would go like that say it diminuendoed in bar four you would do that. oh yeah. so you don't even need to use music paper for this. you can just draw your bars . question four is a very simple one what actually happens to the music at bar nine . question five asks you to fill in the rhythm of the music in bar ten . look at bar ten it's at the end of that statement un peu movemente mais tres peu you'll see you've got the note heads given. you have to fill in the rhythm. you will need to copy those note heads onto manuscript paper and put em in. you don't have to complete bar nine even though bar nine is empty because that's the subject of question four what happens there. so you have to describe that in words. you have to listen carefully oh sorry yes fill in the rhythm adding the phrase and dynamic parts for bar five for question five. question six asks you to listen carefully to the music of bars fourteen to nineteen . i will find those and play them several times. where in the music does the player take a breath? now then how are you gonna say where in the music the player takes a breath? where there's like a little comma. well that could be the answer. you are gonna have to say though. you're gonna have to complete the music for bar fifteen. you can see there's a gap there under the word ceder. so i suggest you actually copy the first three notes of bar fifteen and then put the rest in correctly. in bar sixteen you have to name the intervals. have we talked about naming intervals before? no. in that case we will attempt to do this now and we'll talk about interval naming afterwards those of you who can please attempt it there will be questions here that some of us can't . question nine is a listen. listen to the music in the bars twenty three and twenty four. what do you thing the word trilla trill in english means. okay describe briefly how the music ends. which of these words do not describe the character of the music? and there they are vigorous, mysterious, majestic, haunting and . we will now be listening to the music would you please write what you need to would you complete as many of the questions as you can. if like one or two of us who are thinking about it you've already been thinking about it you've got two or three of these complete already. here is the music for the first time today. okay. so we can all answer question one leon? yeah flute. the answer to question one please. flute. flute thank you oh dear oh dear. i put a pipe. i put pipe. you put what? pipe. a pipe. well i suppose it is basically but no flute that's what we were looking for. erm you were asked to look carefully at the music of the first two bars then write the music of bar three. who has done this so far? well let's think about it once more i know you've done the correct thing cos i've just looked. okay. mm. mm thanks. thank you. listen please to the first four bars of this music. four or five bars and tell me what you notice about bar three. follow bars one and two particularly carefully. what did you notice about bar three by comparison with bar one. it's it is it is the same. is it? so what you should have copied down is bar one again. okay? if you haven't done that yet do it now because the practice of writing it of actually copying it down is important. why though? because the more you actually write the music notes carl the better you will be able to do it when you eventually come to have to write them in exam. practice is what it's all about. so at this juncture you should be making a copy of bar one and calling it bar three. what have we done with mark today? we've killed him. he's not in school. who else have we got missing? paul sounds utterly brilliant thank you very much for that news darren. were you there? he was laying on the ground for about half an hour. well i expect he was hurt poor lad. when you've completed copying this which you should be now i think. no i don't think so. please don't take all day over it it's important that you don't. i'm never writing it again. mm? why not? ah i think you've got a bit of a mental block against it myself. i do. i don't care i hate it. i hate writing music right how did you do? you've got to put the clef at the beginning of it you really ought to. okay and er you know you you weren't you weren't actually high enough up there were you. i mean think about it. yeah. that bit that was the bar. okay you got that bit right you certainly needed the accidentals you certainly needed those two . okay it's very important that the whole things done accurately. those two aren't high enough see that really need to be up there doesn't it. and you need more so really you needed to have done it on this line. so that you could do it like that. okay. the accent over the top and all the rest of it. yeah let's have a look over your shoulder. oh beautiful. you've done what's wr what's wrong with it? you've done an accurate copy haven't except for this. and you'd actually spotted it already which i thought was brilliant except we do need to have the i've got two i've got one it's yes you've got two but there are three. oh okay then yeah. as there are three there. i've got three there i've got one two three oh i see well you've got 'em you've that's why you put em diagonal you see so that they really do show up against the oh yes yes everything's got to be there all the phrase marks the accidentals have got to be it. you know these things. is this right sir? oh totally accurate well done i'm talking to sir the end of your pencil's gone blunt. pen i mean. thank you where? it's vitally important that when you're doing it i'll do it up here that you have the dots, you have the spacing, you have the correct number of lines underneath, you have the accidentals, you have the accents, you have the phrase mark and so on. oh we're getting the piece actually whistled here well done. and so on yeah. now compare that with what you've written underneath. well it doesn't actually sort of bear witness does it. it's coming but you still need to have the accent over the top, you need to have the dot there, you need to have the two accidentals there, that's yes that's got what it needs dot there, the accent there, you need to have the two accidentals there don't you. yeah and you need to have the flat in front of this one. yeah? right ladies and gentlemen. it's important that if you are going to copy accurately you do copy accurately. question three asked you to draw five empty bars to represent the music of bars four to eight. there are five bars between four and eight think about it. will you please on your piece of paper your blank piece of ordinary paper s s create those five bars now and would you please put in the appropriate signs either crescendo or diminuendo. well we can't hear it at the moment i'm just about to run it again for you. i'm sorry you've lost me there. okay. here comes the music what you've gotta decide from between bar four to bar eight. twenty minutes. what? is that how long it takes? what's twenty minutes got to do with bar four and bar eight carl? or are you hungry already? i see. aren't we all. too many lessons in the morning i'm sorry. if the music gets louder you put the crescendo mark in. what that mean? if the music gets quieter you put the diminuendo mark in. okay here's the piece. this is part one. this is bar two of course. here is bar three. now here's bar four at which point we start putting crescendos in if we need to. and that was the end of bar eight. would you like to hear that little bit again see if you can recall it. here's bar three. there's bar four. right can i have suggestions them? anybody got anything in bar four? yeah. one no i've got it in five whoops. bar four and bar five. bar four and bar five what should happen? crescendo? it goes crescendo the like that it goes. diminuendo. that's it. bars four and five i'm going to cheat and look this up in the instructions. ah. would you oh i see. right ten nine eight here we are. here we are yes. it says and this is the books official ones. there is a crescendo at the end of bar and another during bar seven and a diminuendo in bar eight. nothing in bar four. crescendo in bar five, a crescendo in bar seven, and another one a diminuendo in bar eight. although i personally find that a very difficult thing to hear. yeah. what happens to the music what sorry what happens in the music at bar nine. okay? all brains in gear we're listening from the beginning. and we're listening from the beginning. yes what happens in the music at bar nine. this is bar one. there's that crescendo they talked about. here's the diminuendo. that's bar eight. now what happens in this bar bar nine? what goes lower? the noise. you're right craig it goes lower. the tune goes lower which tune? the first tune from the beginning bar one is repeated how much lower? can anybody tell me? about an octave. it's exactly an octave. oh thank you. bar nine is bar one an octave lower. here's the bit that's important this is bar nine an octave lower. okay now then will you please copy precisely what is there at bar ten. the music you need one bar of music line with those blobs which are the note heads in exactly the right places. just copy what's in the book. copy what? bar ten. bar ten. copy what's in the book at bar ten. then all you've got to do is add the rhythm. carl you haven't even started yet. what we doing? exactly. gotta copy out bar ten. copy bar ten precisely as it's given in the book. where's bar ten? where's bar ten? after bar nine and before bar eleven. if in doubt count from the beginning. one two three four five six seven five six seven eight nine ten. eight nine no you're counting lines carl. i know i was. you weren't counting bars. you'll find there are bar numbers given at the beginning of each line. bar four starts the second line, bar eight starts the third line. so it out to be easy enough to work out where ten is since bar eleven starts the fourth line. when you have copied precisely bar ten would you please now finish bar ten by putting the tails in the right places. the what? the tails of the notes. that means the rhythm of the notes you may need to put dots in. you may need to you may need to put dots in you may need to put semiquavers or even demisemiquavers in. this is bar nine followed by bar ten. write in the rhythm pattern. liam i'm sure that was of no help whatsoever to your ability to write this down. it's becoming rather obvious that our concentration span is virtually finished. now will you settle down please. would you like to hear bars nine and ten again? there's got to be a reason why i'm playing you bar nine as well as bar ten. may i suggest you think about that. here's bar nine. here's bar ten. why was the why what was going on? between bar nine and bar ten. it was the same rhythm pattern thank you very much. so which rhythm pattern are you going to put on those notes in bar ten? same as bar nine which is blank but it's the same as bar one. but that's the point. and here you've had another example of the way normally these questions work. carl? i'm not surprised you never know. sorry. thank you. if there is to be a fairly detailed piece of note writing it very often is a fairly near or an exact copy of something that's already gone before. of course you can't put the tails hanging down on bar ten can you. you have to put them up because the notes are on or below the middle line. think think think. so you'll have to reverse the tails. other than that now we go on oh we're still writing are we? thought it had gone quiet for a s have you put your tails on there yet? they're the same tails as this lot except they're up the other way. right? well music is above the middle line the tails hang down. when music is below the middle line the tails stick up. that'll do well done craig. question six asked you to listen carefully to the music of bars fourteen to nineteen and say where the player takes a breath. here we start at bar eleven. i'll tell you when we start on bar fourteen. you can think very hard where the player takes a breath. twelve thirteen. here's where you now have to start thinking. so where did the player take a breath? all of them. was it at the end of every bar? was it at the end of every two? it did in bar fourteen the player took a breath after the crotchet. it the player then took a breath at the end of bar fifteen just before you start the ceder bit. the player then took a breath where the comma is at the end of the line. that is a breath mark. then took a breath at the end of bar eighteen. listen to it again make sure you get it. here it is. this is bar fourteen breath after the crotchet. breath on the bar line. breath there. here's the comma. now you were asked to complete the music of bar fifteen. what do you think you would have written? look at bar fourteen and fifteen. here they are again. i'll run them again for you. right i'm just about to start bar fourteen. sh. follow fourteen then think about fifteen and then see what you think you'd have written. here it is fourteen. that's the end of fifteen. well thank you for that darren nice of you to comment on it. mm? what would you have written? the same as what's in bar fourteen. the same as what's in bar fourteen. who agrees with that? it is wrong but it's close. the middle no no there isn't a crotchet you see. your first your first little group in bar fifteen which is the same as the first little group in bar fourteen, you would repeat. and then you've got to introduce a new little group which is halfway between that and what starts bar sixteen. it's in fact the most difficult question of the group. a very difficult question yeah. there are several other questions i'd like to think about. the word trill what do you think it meant? well it's like erm an it's like it make it fancy and it goes you do a wobble yes it the correct thing is a rapid alternation between the written note and the note above or between the two written notes. so trill is a rapid alternation between the two notes given okay. you were confusing it i think with shrill which is the word meaning high. okay? question ten is a very involved question that i think we won't look at now. the music of course at the end just dies away to nothing. which of these words do not describe the character of the music. would you please say yes or no depending on whether you think it describes the character or not. first word vigorous. no. yes. no. i do think you've made a mistake carl. ah you're good at this aren't you carl. no. thank you. second word mysterious. yeah. yes. third word majestic. no. fourth word haunting. yes. yeah. fifth word angry. no. let's listen to the complete piece once more. at which point you can complete any other bits of the work that you feel you need to. yes i was very appreciative of that thank you. miss said somebody did that for me who didn't want to do their ordinary work. while you're listening you could quietly and i mean quietly put your things away. should you not wish to keep any of the papers that you've got there you can put them very carefully in the box. that box i don't know whether i'm allowed to say now thank heavens for that. aha and that gets rid of it from the front page. sorry rod, do you want me to no, it's okay er, just carry on cos i'm just looking for a piece of paper to write it on. the was that the first one was was more or less science orientated an i i, i looked at it and thought how how i could how i could make it such that it was common yep. er, so that angela could use it you know. erm and i came up with this bit, sort of the middle bit, national curriculum levels would be er your own thing right? that wou tha that bit would be erm different for each subject. the middle bit yeah. whereas these? the top bit and the bottom bit with the at all mm mm. and the format would be the same and you just have different names on the top here yeah. so it would be the same sort of format. and if you didn't want to do national curriculum levels or it wasn't appropriate then you could continue your staff comment now or you could draw a wee picture there or something like that, you know? yeah,and comments. er, the first thing is i put on the top of my draught that i'd rather the pupils weren't involved at this stage i'd rather they were involved in the over view with form tutor. so i, i wouldn't have taken, make a pupil comment on that section. i'm not very happy with my box! why what's wrong with it? well, the first one you mean, you're on page two now? yes. right. well can we not talk about page one first? can can we to some yes, alright then. ignore page two because it's the next stage on, in fact,yo because it's a summation sheet isn't it? mm. alright? we're actually at the moment the the the brief, the focus is to actually on what we, look at what we would send out as a report to parents. that performs a second function that's, that's the report at the end of . right, it's mm. if you like, that summate sheet correct. alright? so can we just ignore that for the moment and focus on the first sheet deliberately it's not difficult yeah. mm. because i think it gives us er it's got a lot of common things in, it gives us a baseline to work on mhm. as opposed to be airy fairy! cos that was the problem last time wasn't it, we weren't quite sure mm. where we were starting from and i think it would be valuable to do what we started doing and actually to look at this as the baseline and decide how we might amend it to keep common factors in that we can all use, because we need something that has a common denominator level mm. in. is that, is that i did that, i did that with . right. you mm. one of the things you said, angela was that there wasn't enough comment on the original one, wasn't aha. enough room so i the size of that because of that yeah. more room but i've , what i'm saying rod is i've done the same thing sorry angela! because yeah, i'm trying to put the excuse i haven't been i haven't presented it as well don has. right. but i've done a generalised thing that could be adapted. right. i think this is very good one! ah oh yeah, i like that, i like it, yep! erm, just picking little bits, i mean er,we when we say actually what it is erm, annual report do we say the annual report to parents, or is it annual report just i know that that's minor but at the actual top what do we actually call the thing that we're presenting? i think, i, i would actually prefer to leave the word annual out and just put i dunno what you wanna call it, i'd i'm always edgy about the word report well ralph gardener yes. community high school, yeah. it will be ralph gardener community high yeah. school that's the first thing. yeah. do we need to put on what it is? i mean, is it not almost explanatory? yes, we we do need to put it on. we do need to put it on. i'm looking for bill, is he around anywhere? bill? p e. p e. and they're in room one which is down past okay! wherever something! in the past we've used different terms haven't we? we we we went to statement to parents! refuse and this,tha you know! to deliberately move away from the idea of the old reporting format that's why we've used the word statement to parents. i mean that box on the left hand side there could be ralph gardener community high school and where it says science or maths or whatever yeah. above that could be report for and then science you know? what's wrong with just a title, science or oh okay then! it seems quite clear i thought i wo i understand that you preferred the word report to be there? well ah, no! didn't say the word report sorry! no, he didn't say that, no. i think that an indication of what the sheet is yes. for the benefit of mm. whoever might pick the sheet up. so, ralph gardener community high school, hyphen and, i would say annual out because mm. mhm. it might well be may not be annual! right mm. mhm. and we either go with the word report or we look for an alternative word or words. what is what is the, what is the, is assessment not the word to use these days? mm. no, it's not a report is it? cos if we're reporting, we're not assessing. mhm. it is a report to parents and i mean, under legislation we have to report report to parents. well i mean i i was that's just looking at that one where we said well report to parents annual report to parents , yeah. you know, and is that is that satisfactory? well that or do we want to call it something different? in that case should call it subject report? subject report instead of annual got enough space in there only make it small. do we need subject report in if you're going, i'm sorry if we're spli , if you're gonna have a box with you're subject name in? cos it's obvious mhm. that it's a subject report, if you've got report yes. right, says science or art and design or whatever well just put report! report will do. and leave the title next to it. yes. yeah. okay. but will the altho , although if one is eventually going to talk about the report one could to make it clear to the parents that what one is a subject report and the other is a summate report. mhm. er, therefore make a distinction between the two parts of the report, you mean rather then the , the report? no, i think mm mm. ah! we a we no we agreed, we agreed a on a fi we need to shift to to the procedure that we would probably have and a tell me if i'm wrong i thought there was a sort of general agreement without it being sort of firmly agreed that we were going to go for a format of subject specific reports still coming to form tutor who would complete some sort of general report, is that yes. not what we had in mind? and that general report would be in a sense a summate report or a form tutor report or a er, pupil management report, whatever title mm. it is we're gonna mm. use. mm. so is is that the context of the word report andrew, er, that you're using. well my feeling was that we had agreed that the parents would sent the subject reports yeah. where they never have been sent before yes. as well as the summate report. oh yes! yes , yes they would go as well i'm not yeah saying alright, yes that would go as well! well i think that's certainly and on that basis i'm not sure we need subject report in just a report and subject in the box. perfect , perfectly logical that! yeah? mm. but as a necessary but we would still have a form tutor input i.e. a summation yeah , but some chance for the youngster in a but yo with records of achievement i.e. but do you agree that that everybody in each subject should fill in that? something like that. oh well wait till you get round to that, we sti really? yes, oh yes, i think that should i mean, it's a , it's the be summarised in the form of some sort of giving what we're being asked to do we do need to have something that focus on general skills and abilities, we've gotta decide what they are. mm. but, yes, i agree we need something like that. but the big problem at present is that that form tutors get loads of information sent to them and then they have to summarise it, and an awful lot of what has been done by the subjects it's wasted, it's just wasted the form teacher! right, if this is going on just keep it! we said the last time, did we not? that if this is going home then that sort of thing doesn't need to come from a form tutor, other than a sa er a sort of generalised one as well, if you like. aye, it's the form tutor one needn't mm. needn't be, i mean once they've got all of this the form tutor one needn't be anything . the form tutor can well can build in a lot of good practises that have been built in the the form i se over the years. i'm i'm i see the form tutor one as being now we've got hold of record of achievement as being part of the developmental process of a record of achievement, now our youngsters know what a personal statement is, form tutors are happier with a joint statement it's taken us four years three or four three four years to get there but it strikes me that we can actually start moving towards that process, not a full sheet of a personal no. statement, but we can start moving towards a personal statement you can right the way across the school so we've actually got a standardised format and everybo everybody's involved in it all the way. and there's still no reason why in that sa er, joint statement that our subject reports no. to them needn't be a, er a starting point, a key for discussion between absolutely! the child and the tutor. i mean you could have, if you have basically what we're saying is that you have a whole load of of subject reports and on the top of it you've got form tutor report yes. which is basically er a summary of a positive comment, an overall positive comment based on all su sa the other reports. summarising wha , the same sort of thing as they're gonna get in the fifth year of the that's right! to build up maybe you know, individual statement, joint statement perhaps on on the sheet but it allows mm. in keeping with, it allows that opportunity as you know as a form tutor, somebody's been on a a a residential weekend mm. to include the other things that we've done, so all i'm trying to say is, it's in keeping with the philosophy of records of achievement. that's right,, yes! their, their, their out of school activities yeah! anything like that. but but, you should also be be sure that the form tutor pro can clarify things for parents because although, no no matter how hard you try to make this erm, a clear and easily understandable document it's only clear and un easily understandable to us. yes, but all form tutors are gonna have to become aware of each subject's cos they're gonna be you know they're gonna be they are they're gonna be summarising them a all the they are. time that's right. and hopefully it's not gonna change! no, and it'll make it a lot easier for the form tha these are the same format mm. so that they can do that quickly and easily mhm. and make it easier for the parent to understand whether this is good or bad. ah yes, it's just gotta the well i don't think, they don't that choose but sometimes that change. parents have come to me and said so and so's only got a c, it's appalling! i think , i think that's very well laid out, i think that's quite self explanatory to er, for us it is, yes but i think i think it's oh yeah! reasonably clear for parents actually. i i think one of the other points makes sense. quite a lot of parents. quite a lot of parents. yeah, okay. one of the other points about it is that it will erm er, in in the minds of the parents the they will see this one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten er being used, poor, satisfactory, excellent and it will get them into the idea of what these levels mm. are. yes. and they will therefore be able providing it's it's used in that format oh yeah. it will be able to interpret for them what these numbers mean in the middle bit. mm. mhm. don, do you envisage the er the general skills and abilities being done by pupils or pupils and staff together or i thought, i i well, i don't envisage anything but i mean i would of thought that kids could fill it in in pencil and then we do the same as we did before a and and that the staff in some way put in their own. mhm. ca can we just look at a i don't know which way to to be specific or to look at the general first, can i just a make some general comments about the, i mean i like that we talked about that before, i like the ten levels yes. i think we need to bla , talk about what the general skills and abilities are. mm. i wonder about the pupil comment being divorced from the staff comment i wondered whether they one should follow the other. i would rather not have that on the subject reports but if it's going to be on i for the sake of coherence the comments should be together. mm you see i i it's it's trying to find the balance isn't it? i i'm er ah i like to think that the youngsters have actually got some input into the report, i think it's important yes, i'm not saying deny that but at the same time i would want to afford er, you as heads of departments er er everybody's heads of department a little bit of leeway what i what if, what wa wa we have to be careful about this that we set a standard but allow a little leeway because all departments are slightly different and want to approach things mm. slightly differently and what i'm trying to say is i don't want the leeway to weaken the strength of the reporting do you know what i mean? yeah. mm. and if you don't feel that you can fit in a pupil comment, you have to be very careful here because some people will take it as a cop-out and not do it and a that worries me and it has happened and i think it is important that the youngsters are actually given some guidance and the opportunity to do it. you're yes. saying you're not in a position to do that in the moment or you wouldn't want no. to do that? no, i'm not saying that, i've have i got the wrong end of the stick? i'm not saying it like that, what i'm saying is i would pref , yes, i would like them to be involved in it a as far as my subject reports are concerned i would like our reports that we do, we do involve the kids, i pass them out, we discuss them and i'll re-draft but i would not, rather not have their written sample on that piece. okay. i think they get fed up and i don't think that a that language-wise they have the vocabulary in the school to be able to pluck out meaningful comments and you know, and go right across the curriculum there i think dif let me finish! mm. er, it's difficult for them. erm, i think you should involve them but i think it'll be preferable if it was one to one with the form tutor i that time and the form tutor has taking an over-view mhm. and they were taking over-view as well right? now that's what i'd prefer, but in every, you know the majority go against me and they want it in a as i say i i would, i think that it'd be better placed at the top. guidance? i prefer the pu pupil comment to be honest. you would like the pupils to to make their own written comment in there? i'd also like the national curriculum levels to come straight underneath course one. yes. you see i felt can we no ,ca yes, comments together. can we just come back to the pupil comment business, one thing at a time for a moment and can we try and get how people feel the reason about whether they want a pupil comment in. the reason i'd put pu pupil comment where it is, is because so far as i was concerned the top half of that i was gonna, was gonna be filled in by staff it is a report. mm. that's the top part the bottom part is open to negotiation and that's why i've put them altogether at the bottom. well mhm. don the staff comment one could come under the national curriculum levels if you yeah, you mean out yes. outline then that yeah. bit then staff comment? yes. can i come back to my original question, which was yo pupil comments. you you want pupil comment yes or no? paul? andrew, your thoughts? yes, if we didn't have pupil comment we would miss some absolute pearls like mr is a lying git! and, you know only i couldn't live without that! what was that word? git! you've convinced me andrew! was that is that bet he then! is that, but you has it? but you do have to remember as i say i've got one i'll give you my book later on angela! you do have to remember at the same time that these documents would be going home and aha. there is a a a level of er oh propriety? yes that when you an appropriateness! yes, that and we need to follow. oh. i would hope that if, if a parent saw er that er somebody had had that sort of attitude towards the staff that mm. the parent would have the opportunity of making an appropriate mm. it's not only that but if if if no, it's not only that if they if they did this i would it not give them practise at at being able to do the mm. you know, the the report at the end of of, of five years? you know angela's expressed a view. i'm i'm saying the but not just stage that's what all chaps! oh, er erm alan, sorry? erm i'm half and half i i i go along with angela in the main that the the kids in, generally speaking the kids that i've talked to don't want to put their own input a lot of them don't want to because, as angela says, they cannot find the appropriate words and some of the others just write some some stuff that i would look at and say i'm, you know i'm not very happy having that written on this. i've had but it's science this year. but with all due respect is some of that not to do with the guidance their receiving from us as teachers? certainly, i i've told you absolutely! i have spent but a great deal of effort and time in enabling the children to write something meaningful i i've let it in sure you know im im improve their english language. sure. okay, paul? surely we've working from er statement banks for pupils for quite a long time and why can we can't we, why can't we be picking out guiding, guidance as far everything alright, i should be i don't have to look, if i can just it's all mechanistic to say that! i don't have to look it's all what? mechanistic you know mechanistic oh yes i feel oh stop ! i don't have to look too far back in there when we started this whole process, four or five years of throwing it all up in the air to say that i felt every pupil could comment in some way, something that they had enjoyed, something they felt they'd been successful at, something they felt they found difficult, something that had pleased them, surely every child could comment on wo , if it's just one of those things wha but i it has then and that's on every subject, that's the what angela's, the point no. angela's making yes i think it it be it becomes repetitive they they get a yeah. bit sick of this yeah. you know! yo your it becomes stale, they say i like this it was good! yes, i i i i and things like that. but is that not part of our job to get them to think and ? yes, absolutely, i agree with you! obviously i agree with you that we should be putting the kids in challenging situations where that they've gotta rise to the occasion and use language in an effective way, but i don't know whether this is the best way, these er er er, you know, a series of how much space of you got? whereas, if they were involved in the end where they sat with the form teacher mhm. read the lot, i mean, look what they doing language-wise, they're reading, they're evaluating, they're projecting i mean,the that, they're doing quite complicated things there, and also hopefully there will be enough space where they have the opportunity to put something that is meaningful and they're involved in the dialogue with the form right. teacher. paul? i i, for pupil comment you could ea , quite easily have a joint statement there, or a joint comment whereby the or just statement. there's no or just real reason why comments. once a year that er a subject teacher and a pupil cannot sit down an and come up with a could i take sometime. could we get round with that? could we get round that by, instead of saying staff comment and pupil comment make the space join them. slightly larger and just say just say statement? just say comment actually. comment. comments. mm. comments. that's what but i have to put back to you that the onus then falls on you and head's of departments to ensure that that space is used properly. oh it will be. okay. yes,that will. and i have to say my experience it leaves me to doubt, i know i'm a cynic sometimes, that the space will not be used effectively and well because people get under pressure and it's oh christ i ain't got time so i won't bother! i'm sorry well that's if that's very cynical and i know it's unfair in some context. it is mm. unfair! erm, i think that is unfair we rod, yes i agree with don, i think if you look at er what the work has gone in er in the fifth year for the last two or three years and the way that subject teachers are now approaching ranks of achievement i don't see yes it's . it's not a process wi , that's not a valid comparison in the sense that in no? fifth, in fifth year and year eleven it's a different ball game altogether. but why shouldn't staff put the same process into operation lower down the school? i think beca i think because some don't actually transfer the skill, if i might, say that. yes but i mean, in some cases i've gotta say in some cases it is inappropriate to make a lot of comments with mhm. a lot of pupils you are giving a lot of information mm. here and here on the pupil mm. in some cases it may be appropriate but if you're forcing people to make comments just because there's a space to do it mm. then it loses a lot of it's values, yes. right. but can't we think about re-phrasing that so we get this idea of this joint statement, some sort of dialogue on okay. on there. co , more comments then? right. i think that's a point to pick up on actually. mm, i andrew? on this? i'm never never one for for making work but on an a on although this isn't going to be called an annual report for most children it will be an annual event and i do feel quite strongly that for the child to be able to have the opportunity mhm. of doing this and the opportunity is one where they are told to do and they will not miss the opportunity. well they're gonna is be told to do that when they're doing this bit aren't they? mm. when they're going to look mm. at this bit and tick these boxes yes, but ticky boxes, and expressing themselves in other yeah but ways the ways perhaps that are not sticky! erm you know the, what they wish to express is not available on the mm. ticky boxes erm that sho sho should be there. i know that our children by enlarge er their vocabulary doesn't extend to erm what er, polysyllabic words which which might really sum up for an adult what they've been going through, how they've enjoyed it but what is the terrible form we had last year in seventh year, was it seven g ? yeah. erm, george and i had that class shared between us, he took them for an hour a week and i did and i if there is a class that any of us had ever taken that would be unlikely to be able to write something meaningful of this kind mhm. that would be the class and yet they all did cos george and i insisted! but we helped them by suggesting mm. words and er, they didn't lose it they, they they they went along with it and they, they actually, some came yeah. up with some quite good descriptive language with some aesthetic terminology which we guided them with, but we didn't put the words in their mouths mm. each one came out as a very personalised and individualistic comment which reflected that child. mm. some of them very negative, and how much they hated doing what they'd been made to do er, and others very surprisingly made it known that they had thoroughly enjoyed it. erm, but the , they were totally honest they didn't feel mm. made to do anything else. but i would not have known that children who said they enjoyed it, were enjoying it mm. cos they behaved so badly! mm. and i hadn't enjoyed it ! maybe that's why they enjoyed it andrew? mm. perhaps it was , in fact, one or two of them said, you know we like ripping the piss out of mr ! i think you've also gotta look at it from the kid's point of view and perhaps i'm wrong here but, you know when you think, i mean,the these are going to be done very, you know er i i we got a sort of time limit, and kids are going to be told during perhaps a two week period mm. right, science, right come on then let's get down to this! then they'll now go into a maths lesson let's go into this, they're gonna perhaps do that eight times, then they're gonna get a breather, then a few days time after that the form teacher's saying right, let's do it again and summarise it, i think it's too much! right, well i i part of me says,the the there are two aspects, the other side of the coin a little bit, if we talk about recording achievement and not recording failure, we here have an opportunity to point out to youngsters, encourage youngsters in that they are all capable of achieving in some way and to get them to write down that they have achieved, that's the other side of the coin. i know it happens in individual subjects and there's the element of repetition but, you are at the same time making them reflect over a certain period and say i have not entirely wasted my time, there maybe some youngsters for whom it will be extremely difficult, and i except that but my thinking is that is you look hard enough you can find something that everybody has done at whatever level that they can take some pride in. aha, and they can do that in the summary! i agree with you but they can achieve that in a different form, if that's your purpose it doesn't need to be achieved like this. yes. there is no reason why, why the teacher and the pupil shouldn't be discussing this bit of it! you're going to give them more of a ri , a more of a resource bank, if you like, right to pu pluck these, er these comments from how will we class if they take an if over view. right, if we don't do it that way how will we pass that information, which a a as i understand it you want passed to the form tutor? well it's go , it's all going to be there in the reports and surely the kids are going to able to form everything . no it won't be on if if we use this as the document reports. for science no i don't mm, yeah. we're immediately saying now, well we need another sheet of paper because the information no! that we're talking about no do that, right? that's the only thing that's gonna be off, okay? and then we as the form teacher sits why can't the kids look at the reports as well? but will the form teacher be able to do as you would do in english and say, but look when you did that written piece on so and so it was goo, the form teacher will not have that detailed knowledge that you will have we'll give the kids some prompts you know, what have you enjoyed? what have bla bla bla angela i would have thought er and involve that in part of the programme, you know, where they're, where they're involved in the whole report and assessment. for for si for the six subjects? angela form teacher wouldn't have time to do that! no, no you do i'm not making myself clear! that's why it should be done in the no. no, what i'm suggesting is lesson. that the kids erm as an alternative, the kids could get some help on how to, look at all the reports and extract a couple of positive statements that's what the emphasis should be, not that he's a git! right? no nothing on that, that sort of line but you i think you're taking one example there actually angela! i think you're interrupting a me! a , take a couple yes, i am. positive statements right and they need a little bit of help on how to do that and then make some sort of generalised positive comment about themselves, that's what i mean. mm. so or , or if that, if you disagree with that well, put pupil comment there, hyphen or whatever upon but lead that on, give them a bit of a leader into it. mhm. can i summarise? go on then. we're getting nowhere fast well i ca i mean can we i think we are! could i, could i make a suggestion? no, that's important. could i make a suggestion? taking into account everything everybody said the formats as it is, course outline after course outline goes your individual bit, right? subject, but national curriculum levels on this one yeah. sta sta staff comment comes out of there and that bit goes up then you have general skills and abilities and then below that you have a wider box which just says comments which will include a staff comment and may include a pupil comment as well cos because it's signed by both at the bottom. can i just check what you were saying there? so, take the staff comment from there and instead of putting staff down put a generalised comment on this? just put instead of having staff comment and pupil comment, you got one box, comment. double the size of the box comments. down there. comments. so that that would that comes out instead of being there can i have a word please? mm mm. it's down there. paul? i'd like, i think as it is at the moment is erm is superb! and i think, instead of pupil comment it should be some sort of joint say. but i think that's perfectly adequate. and i think kids should be encouraged to erm think about themselves rather than just tick boxes and i think er, er er a group of sentences down here written by the form teacher, by the subject teacher and the pupil erm, as it's been done for about, for a few years, a good habit to get the kids into, erm especially as a record of achievement should start from year seven. mm. can i just ask then, if you're saying to be it should be a joint statement, but you mm. think that format's alright, is that not a contradiction because if it's a joint statement and this format's alright you've got staff comment divorced from pupil comment? i want the staff comment and i want the, a joint statement at the at the bottom. but i want your opinion, i mean the sa , the the staff comment is going to be well you do exactly repetition! you do exactly the same on the erm on the record of achievement don't you? you've got a a staff comment and then you have er a pupil comment which is really well written in as a no. joint sort of no no you have a pupil statement personal in the statement. in the sa in the form, in the form when the form teacher does it. you have a personal statement then the joint statement. you don't have a staff comment and a joint statement. but the staff comment is in the statement i , in the subject specific. mm. right. so you wo you would like to have it in a format similar to the the very final yes. thing that they're aiming at so yeah. they get used to the format? mm. that's sounds very reasonable but i i er i i ha not having been at the level, form tutor mm. but er you know yeah, i think for some years, i've never done one of those. i take what paul's saying, i think i'm not really with it. i think there's a scale element cos we're talking one sheet here and it's a it's a much bigger exercise. okay right. but i i i agree what you're saying, it's very valid. guidance then paul? can , yeah, can we can we vote on whether we're going to improve pupil comment? and then when that's decided let's decide well let's upon the format. get dead clear about what it is we're go actually gonna vote on right. because it's we've gone a bi on the a bit round the houses. either in principle am i right in saying then i i is the first thing we need to agree on whether we're gonna have a staff comment, and a pupil comment on there is tha , is that the first decision? i think everybody's in agreement about staff aren't they? there's no question about staff comment on there? no. right, fine! right. er , what do you mean there's no question? everybody accepts there should be a staff comment on. er, okay and it's sold! fair enough, well, that's the point i was making. the the the in order to get by pupils writing these er rather immature things that they write on the mm. bottom of these reports why can't you make it into a a pu er er a a joint teacher pupil comment, it isn't just a, it isn't in the same form it's just the same that the pupil writes that with guidance with teacher guidance, sitting next to the teacher. i think we're losing track of what this actually is paul, there are, you're trying to do two things at once what you're trying to do, i think is use it as a learning process for children but this is an annual report for parents and i think that part of it a at least surely must be a report by the sa member of staff, by the department on how the child has done, by the member staff. by all means give the, give the kid a chance to, to put his side of the story if you like, but there must be er well we've got all that there haven't we? right. yep. yeah? i know. the the form that we have currently the er sta statements are they called at the moment? yeah. erm, i know that the way that i do it every time it looks rather like a is what we use? is that the one you want as a form tutor? er, it's subject oh. then i haven't got a front have i? that er one? yes, it is there. yeah. er, the comment here the way that i have been used to doing these i found that i i like it and the kids can you write yours and they write theirs? i i invariably do write something mm. so do i. and the kid invariably writes something down. well that's what i suggested ten minutes ago! and i like that form. yes. whilst you've suggested everybody else has a right to their opinion and doesn't make yours the solution! and i think having, as a separate issue, the staff comment as a ! a separate box er, you know, er is is is not necessarily appropriate. sometimes, if the child writes in there first i say, i concur with what so and so has said, well done or something like that. would sometimes the child isn't really very good at writing and i will write something encouraging and the kid says i have liked my art well, yeah can i, can i that's all they can do can i then put to you in fairness. i think, what don's saying is it's got differentiation though. that we have a comment area testing, testing, testing ! that we have a, differentiation he said,differenti differentiation. we have a differentiation. comment area when we, these go out there would be guidance which would say their staff must make their comment in that space yeah. how the other part of space is used could be left to individual departments on the basis that of discretion. discretion or it is hoped that pupils would be afforded the opportunity to make their own, if involved in the process. you wish so, they must certainly be involved in the process yes. or it could be an agreed joint statement and written by the member of staff. whichever way you are. oh yeah. so it allows so what does that mean? what you're saying is basic comment yo you're gonna put comment? we will put no then comment call that statement then. it's gotta have something before it though. it's qui , comments! well comments by who? well comments and statement? well, if you put comments and mm. a me a member of staff writes the comment and signs it it's obvious who has written the comment, i.e. the member of staff has written it, you could then have something underneath if you wish to, that is the pupil's, that will be obviously the pupil's from the different writing, or the style of the writing er or you could open it up with we have agreed, if you wish to one make it a joint aha. statement. aha. and we would put that down as basic guidance to staff when completing reports. yes. yes, yeah. in other words it leaves the format open to the department concerned? let the cat in alan but would you and i'll get the food, i'm a bloody expert cats and that's, sorry, and they acted immediately there. ! terry, thoughts? i mean, we've not sort of included you no i've i mean, i know that in the primary schools nowadays they do allow, or do let the ki the children actually write their own reports as well. mm. cos they're actually coming up from this year mm. i mean, they it's the records of achievement. so they're doing it from the age of possibly eight or nine some people, certainly down right the way through mm. the bottom of the school. i've but i , i i still agree with it's young to be doing it. what somebody said that the, sometimes the pupil's comments are kind of as andrew pointed out earlier that er yes. it's not the sort of things that but you wanna see on a on a yeah. on a report, on a but i mean but with guidance yeah, yeah you see i that's right! i agree with what you're saying but when i've done it before and involved the pupil in such a report i put it on a separate sheet, so that yes there's been yeah well that's what the primary school's done. ma , this is prior to all this you see yes. yes. and we had all this we've got ha i have to go along here some, to some of you with a bossy statement of you know, this inclusive as opposed yeah. to exclusive bit mm. mm. and it allows the opportuni it affords the opportunity to be inclusive and i think that's important. well a po what about the reverse? sorry? put it on the reverse of the sheet. we then get into all sorts of photocopying production problems, i mean this is why i was asking did you want another piece of paper? i know it's a bit penny-pinching mm. oh! but erm, because mm. that's very but rod, i i sti i think it is also is good preparation for year eleven. mm. oh yes! that's a they should be thinking about it right from the word go. oh absolutely! yeah. absolutely! as long it is joint, i mean there's no way that yo that you could have something sent home to parents right, with a kid's comment, maths is crap! you know , yeah you know you would tear it up wouldn't you? ye well i would, yes. yes! but so and lo , on the other hand though i'd but i i go on sorry paul a lot of the the statements these kids make are quite reasonable, well written comments yes! mm. so wha what andy's done, and what other people have done have pitted, picked out a few great examples, but i would say that erm the majority are quite reasonable comments, if, if perhaps a little bit simple at times, i don't know. does seem . andrew? i would , i would tend to say the majority aren't, aren't interested in their, in their own comments. erm, well but that depe , a lot of, sorry rod! a lot of that depends on on the, on the staff input mhm. mhm. and how they motivate in school the kids, as andrew has pointed out that, as as he and george operate. last comment from andrew and then we move on cos we've got a a an agreement in in what we're gonna put in, we haven't got an agreement as to where we're gonna put it but andrew comment? well i'm prepared to say th th that i that i think that we do do good practice in that we do sit down with the children and help them, each individual along with the with our joint statements. never the less, it is the child speaking we don't put the words into their mouths and as such when they speak and when they write it down, it's one of the, possibly one of the few chances of having primary evidence of how the child is at er, writing er, on an official document mm. er, progressing through the years i doubt whether samples of the child's work are kept officially in any other form or anywhere else they are. their handwriting and so on. they are. maybe they are in english but mm. but not an official document as opposed to a subject, i mean, i keep all their pictures, you know that mm. they do. but it's a central a central mm. easily accessible yeah, that's fair enough. by anybody form so, here we have each year, six examples of the child's writing and thought processes and opinions at least, well i, i said six because i ca don't really know how many subjects a child will be taking or writing for mm. but it is primary evidence and i think as primary evidence it has an extra value to the child's records, and to the school's records, over and beyond what mm. we have ever had or thought about, practically. on the other hand each time they get a report they're going to have ten pieces or their work on each report right! which i'd never have thought. tha , that is what,i isn't that what i just said? yeah. mm. and then they're gonna have an eleventh one when they, when they do it with the form tutor. the form tutor and . are they going to do with the form teacher yes, once a year. tutor as well? mm. well once a year but they never yeah. have to be a little parcel won't it? because we need to go through that an example summation joint statement process. can we run through this again then so we right. can decide? let's come back to it then, so we've agreed a basic heading, although we need to play with that a bit, name, year tick indicates end of end of key stage ooh mm! no, i'm not too sure about that! we well yeah ,tha that that's just let's just leave it for the moment , let's just leave it for the moment. course outline i think we're all agreed, should be at the top er, that is important we've now agreed a heading and comment we've got a e enough agreement that says that, it will be just called comment, but guidelines will need to be produced to go to staff erm rod, is that national curriculum levels or is that staff comment after course outline just there? well that's what i want to get from you now if i can. oh sorry! carry on. we've agreed comment, where would the comment be placed, given that, i think we all agree we want national curriculum area in, we need a general skills and abilities in, where would the comment be situated, at the bottom underneath everything, between the two or what? a at the end of the main staff input. yes. so that should go there. so are you saying with the suggestion so as it sits now between national curriculum no, i'm asking you there but i'm asking you when's the me , end of the main staff input? that's there isn't it because that's mm. supposed to be a joint activity there? mhm. so i would suggest that it would go there. so i would between national curriculum levels and general skills and abilities as it sits at the moment? yes. mhm. course outline national curriculum levels, staff comment. erm i would differ er, with that opinion because i would say that the comment as a joint comment would erm have to deal with the general skills and abilities mm , oh yeah. which the child er erm, generally speaking does with, they're getting teacher guidance. so, the comment, joint statement which refers to what? will be about everything, not just the top bit but would include comment of the whole for that. right, i i'm sorry i didn't understand i thought that you that's okay. that was gonna be a se separate no. staff no. if it's a joint comment, yes it should go at the end. so com wi th but we've agreed, i'm sorry if i'm being repetitive and boring and the rest of it but comment, there would be a staff comment, how you use the rest of the space, assume there's a double space is now left with you given the guidelines are issued. well we're gonna say staff comment are we? are we? no, it would just be comments. yes yeah. and the first part of it that would be staff comments. the first part of it must be a staff comment. right. and and it will be double the size well it won't be double the it'll be size it'll be it'll be staff yes. comment plus, pupil comment will it ? so it'll be like yeah. that. we will just put it as a space. one big block. so it'll be left up to the a space with individual that's right. it'll be as a space. okay. so and is this, are are the i know this again just minor, but if the staff produces a comment are they going to sign that and also sign the bottom or are we just gonna leave it that the parent will be able say i think it's pretty obvious who's written what. that's what i'm saying! well is it? i say,ro ro rod, there's gonna be yeah. sorry, there's gonna be some people who don't even ha have no pupil comment on at all then? they have no pupil input? course they will! it will have well no pupil input on that bit. there's gotta be a pupil input, there's no way you can do this why, why do you say that? i'm just er interested, that's all. so the no,the they'll be a pupil input, it might well be that as a department there's a decision that the pupil would not write yeah. on the report. right, okay. but it does, you are not precluded from allowing a youngster to write on a report. i'm i'm er er being a little naughty and trying to steer a middle road, if you like in other words it could be correct me if i'm wrong i, what i don't, if andrew obviously feels he's got a strong process that suits him and i don't want to knock that on the head. alan, i'm sorry if i'm sort of trying to put you at the end and continue and i i don't intend it like that. i don't mind, i just know alan exactly where i stand on this! well alan sort of has a feeling that he doesn't want that to happen and i want to fi , i, what i don't like, i i mean i go , personally i go with andrew's feeling but i don't want, so i don't want to exclude that again mm. i want, i want if i want to do both. to afford the opportunity i at the same time, there are people who sit in the middle ground mm. and i think it's perhaps important to start with that we go with something that's a little bit open-ended that we can review in a years time er, perhaps a little bit later and say well look we have shown that we can do it valuably er the proof is in the pudding, it now beholds everybody to do it this way. yes. is is that, is that reasonable? yeah? agreed. yeah. right? grand! er, well i i don't want you to feel that that er maths department no, i'm not saying don't want no. pupils involved because every piece of work that a kid does is discussed with the pupil the only thing that i was a little wary about was a pupil actually putting down mr is right. a so and so, er maths is crap and so on and you know, that's that's going to make this into something that we wouldn't want right, i i i'm i'm anyone to go, you know to see. i do apo i wasn't trying to put you as the bad boy on that end of the continual, i wasn't alan, i'm no. we could be here for about he's a bad boy ! so, so we're saying that there will be a staff comment, then there maybe nothing else or there maybe a pupil comment or there maybe a joint statement? mm. that's right. that's right. so that's every system incorporated. staff comment followed by one it's very vague though innit? no. well it's not! so we'll leave it and down three formats possible. mm. and that's going at the bottom we're saying there right? mhm. right at the bottom? yep. yeah. so that bit that goes there and that bit goes rou , put that back in again that's right yeah. bottom, it's gonna be called comment? mhm. mhm. are you gonna issue guidelines or just leave it? yep. no, there will be guidelines and you're in the know anyway so you'd be telling at your curriculum area meetings, you'd be saying cascade as opposed to cascade ca , oh! but you're not going to ca cascading! cascade! cascade! but you're not going you're no , not the sweat pouring off my brow! no, but you're not going to you're just gonna leave it open? yeah, for the reasons that i've said to you're going to we can evaluate it later on a okay. without you know, having to well it's not that open because we're saying there must be some staff something written by staff yeah. or are we not? oh yes we are aren't we? yes. staff have to write their comments ah something there is then an option after that and involve the child. as to whether it's a joint and involve them they must be involved mustn't they? i i'm sorry i just take that as automatic, i don't even think about it any more. i think you should write that down okay, that means pupils well must be involved in in some form i i do and i don't that's your job is, can i be naughty, it's your job as cacs to insist that that's happening. so you would advise, rod that, you would i i, no it's go er er youngsters are involved in it, i mean that's just my assumption, it's our rationale, well it at the moment. i don't know where the rationale is but it's written i'm that's it's everybody's responsibility. point the finger paul, come on! yes. i'm not into that angela, i couldn't do that! i can't honestly why? they they are meant to do it and don't do it, they should be told to do it. mm. by? exactly! mm. yes, but there is still the the the thought that a me , i'm sorry ! a a a member of staff may feel that they want to say something about a kid, and it does not necessarily have to agree with what the kid here here! that's right. you know, i mean, i might be saying jimmy has wasted his time this year oh yeah! then he will have under me have to say, jimmy does not agree with this yes. he feels, and so on, but there has got to be something that is obvious staff comment. er yes, absolutely! well yes i, i put down comments like that and that is, that would be exactly the right way to do it! that the kids don't agree with you say jimmy i think it's this the i sa i put my reasons forward because jimmy could then sign that and they're, they're they're still involved aren't they? aye? disagreement's involvement mhm. isn't it? yeah, i'm i mean the number of times, alan, i've read quite a few got your facts right! i've come across we agree er, or jimmy feels now once somebody writes jimmy feels it's, it's almost intrinsic that, is that the word i want? that, there is da , yeah it's a word, there is disagreement. i might be to you but it's this is going to a parent! yes. i i i'd agree with alan, i'd yeah, that's right. i don't see that that pu that the the staff comment, which is gonna be the first thing need have anything to do with the child at all there is ample place oh if you think within shoot that man! jesus christ! well in the sense that they've been involved in it. no no but the i don't they need to be involved in it whatsoever! they've read what you've said and then say well i don't agree with that and you can write down that. absolutely! a staff comment is but surely that is involvement, i'm not understanding what you're putting forward! no i think no. it's the way the words have been used that we're interpreting wrong. if i've got to write a comment for a start what sort of weasel word then? then i want to write a comment, i will not necessarily involve the child with no. what i'm writing he will er then see that, or he will have mm. already seen it because he will be involved in that bit. aha. yep. mm. well but if she does see it well if she does see it, yes. yes, yes, she! subtle ah? alright. if she does see it and disagrees with it that's involvement isn't it? mm. yes. mhm. we're agreed then. okay might not agree with this i i i think we've i think we've covered that. right. i think we've flushed that one haven't we? well i think so well there you are! i mean i don't know how you it's hard work this isn't it? i need some tea ! anyone need a cup of tea i i think on the ! it's only half past two! we've only been here three quarters of an hour ! well we've got ten pages to do, we're only half way through the first page man ! no, we haven't , no we haven't we we're okay because that have been there for years haven't they? but it does need cleari , unless we get some sort of consensus, and it behove you to say look this is it's my belief but there are beliefs, i mean it does behove you to present yes! what other departments feel to your to your people, because wha , you do have to be careful about the indoctrination, this is what i believe so it's right, we've gotta we do have to strike a balance. i mean i've got my own thoughts, i have to be careful here that you know i've got to try and pull together what you think because at the end of the day it's it's very important that it reflects the way we work in school, not the way i perceive i we work in in school because you're the people at the chalk first. i think a , that there's another point that we should all remember and that is that it shouldn't just be our opinion either, we are sort of told from high certain things by who? that we have to do in a certain way, in a certain format and certain things have got to be included and we've got to take that in hand as well. but we've done that in the brief that we've we've worked on. yeah, oh no, i know, i know, i know! we've already got past yeah. that stage. yeah, alright! fair enough! i think haven't we? but after what she said sorry , i'm being defensive, sorry! mm. right so we got staff comment, it will either be a pupil er, statement written by the member of staff or written by the pupil themselves or a joint statement, they were the three or no on both. on all three. i it will be staff did we alter it? yeah. it could be staff alone, it could be staff and pupil, it could be staff and joint. okay the only thing it can't be just but they're going to be no comment. see. right, we will make, move progress. thank you for that, er it's not, it's not easy ground and i do appreciate with which it's happening and the lack of sarcasm that is occurring. ha! ha! ha! see this, this bit here this, the whole presentation this this part of it here mhm. which has got to be this is that the next bit? the national curriculum which we cor! we're going onto to know. i assume that's where we're going onto now . yeah. okay? er we've then got two areas to look at national curricular levels and general skills and abilities. can i assume that we sort of are happy with the format that there should be a national curriculum level and there should be a general skills and abilities? i can make that assumption? yes. yes. okay. we canno , we cannot disagree about this next little bit can we? right , the national curriculum levels i am nearly o of the opinion to be almost glib and say there will be a space that is about a third of a sheet of a four, it's down to every department to do their own i nearly said, i don't care, i often do care but that's down to the professional expertise of dis departments. mm. is it or isn't it? no, it's all no, no, no , they're all exactly the same! i mean, there are four attainment targets, there are three attainment targets that's right. yeah. they are these and tha you're obliged it's just the number of boxes that you're gonna change! is everybody happy with that layout for that? yes. yeah! ecstatic! mm mm mm. mm. nearly. go on andrew. god ! we nearly go agreements! no, it's important! what time does this erm session end by the way? half three. i dunno,i is there no tea there? half three. it's called we'll we'll have a cup of tea! hang on angela! half past three today. there's an awful lot of information that i've put in there which i've photocopied and much reduced from the official documents mm. which gives a great deal more information about the attainment targets than the er, two or three words but ha they have got headings though haven't they? yeah they have. i could have put the headings on as you have mhm. and to take the whole bloody lot out! ha! right oh!pages. you you , absolutely, we'd go on forever and ever and ever and er, therefore, i i, i withdraw all of that stuff but, in a way i feel that it would be helpful for parents, probably who haven't seen this information and might like maybe a sample you mean you would like to present it in a different way? some somewhere , yeah, maybe not on here mm. not on each subject but, maybe on the inside cover of er, a presented re , er set of sheets but wha wha , you know, however it's gonna be sent or on the back of the summate sheet or something. you know, for your information the attainment targets have quite lengthy descriptions here are one or two examples, here's a maths one, here's an english one, here's a mm. a science one, for instance because, i don't suppose many of the parents will have seen o all the thickness of the document will no. they? they they've only had the taster because i sent home the erm a map of of d o s, d e s whatever i'm supposed to call it now. d s e. d s e. d s e. d s e. i sent home the the that document in with the national curriculum's er report. which s i've now lost! so in other words, some suggestion that these headings are indicated more. have a lot more , yes mm. indicator of of quite a rich scene and, that the that's a nice image. yeah, thank you. anyway, but you're in great danger there because you'll you will beco , it will come like this yeah. and a parent will say, level four maths? no, multiplication tables find and average and know how to work out an area, that's a doddle! you know, i mean, there's an example of what they're saying. i think level four, this is what you do in maths but that's only one bit of it isn't it? you know , and that is a little piece of maths and tha , i mean, that is absolute rubbish! it's only a very small part of level four. because they they've condensed it and just put in a few little bits and pieces! mm. so you're against that because you think it trivialises it? you cannot, you cannot give them the the national curriculum book! i think there's an element, paul comment? i think we could all do what andrew's suggesting quite easily er i could do it for geography, erm, i just think it's making a lot of extra work. garbage. yeah. mo more than it needs? yeah. can i just say then we seem to have agreed that that standard andrew points been taken on board and dismissed out of hand no, i'm not cos i think it's quite a valid no i'm being point he's making i'm being mhm. erm don it's whether we've i know you carry a lot of valuable stuff in your briefcase. can i borrow your briefcase? mm. thank you. ca , can i make a point about the tick now? mm. since we're at that point. i put that inversely i i he's put down inversely fro from what we will we are obliged to do we're obliged to say that these levels ha er have been erm have not been checked by sats mhm. if they have been mm. but i thought to th this way it was mhm. you know,we we're obliged to put that little bit in you know, there's year seven, year eight, year ten the there won't be a tick in there and so the the these levels will be whatever you've decided they are in the way that you asses but at the end of the key stage this report will go out in au i in september now following sats. mm. or it'll go out in july god knows how we're gonna do it after sats in er a a ye at year fourteen. so we've got to have that statement in and we've got to differentiate it some way or from the but if you had your name and year at the top you could actually put a simple statement along the bottom because you'll only be issuing it for year nine and eleven. well, will you because year eleven is automatically confirmed by levels g c s e. at g c, g c s e? but it is end of key stage four. but we will have a record of achievement, this system will not be used for years mm. year eleven, will it? so we wouldn't need it, so all i'm saying is you could put in one simple statement at the bottom, year nine de dun de dun de dun and will confirmed by sats external test. this will not be used at er end of key stage four or something? well you use this reporting system in year ten but year eleven we'll have record of achievement. you'll have a record of achievement and prob this this yo you'll have your own format, your amended format but aren't we obliged to to produce this erm, in september. september mm. of of of the yeah. following year, yeah. end of that key stage four? yes, but it will be it will be this bit of it that you know, the bit that comes right. from the from the boards that we'll get, cos there'll be thousands and thousands of bloody numbers! oh! that, that you're gonna send out to parents, they're gonna look at all these numbers and oh the end of key stage form can be different, different format. mm. that mm. the the bits of that tie into let's wait to, wait till yeah wait. the thing arrives before we mhm. so what i'm saying is this will appropriate for year seven, eight, nine and ten we're obliged to and a say sorry! go on right. don. we're obliged what's that to say that if er, it is not a sat year, we are obliged to say these levels have not been confirmed by sats so the only in year nine we, we don't need to say that. but i think i it also would highlight if you put it as a sentence right, fair enough. that rather we kept it in. for year seven, eight parents it is coming, if you like, that at the end of year nine it's the end of the key stage and it's an important time de dun da, they're warned for two successive years. i know it seems a little bit i idealistic, don't know what the word is i want but it is for warning that what's happening that the end of ninth year is an important time in terms of er er measuring er their pupils er relative success. so i'm suggesting that that, we could take that box out er er and this be re-phrased as a sentence, either at the top so, or underneath i don't mind which. okay? how about this then, these levels have not been confirmed by sats except in the year nine report? well, i i don't think you need the first no i don't. part in. no. it's negative. well indi individual levels will be confirmed by external tests for year nine pupils these levels will be confirmed by when do they get the results for sats? sats. don? mm? when do they get the results for sats? july. so you mark them yourself. right, okay. send a report in don't you? cos we've gotta report on year nine at the en , in before mm. september or sorry, in july or mm. immediately we come back, which is something else we have to sort out with our heads now. the end of august i think it is in, which means then in july doesn't it? mm. for year, so the sentence will be don, for year nine pupils er, these levels er what did you put? have been confirmed by sa will have been future perfect. and yo and you wouldn't be indicating that that's end of key stage three? you didn't put it there! well for, you know,the these levels will have been confirmed by external tests. what about year nine? it goes year nine pupil i think you've gotta put sats in, sorry. the levels of year nine alright, external test bracket sats! right? you're an awkward bugger you! that's another technical term! yo you didn't put will have been confirmed in there but you want it in there now and then you put sats bracket external test,extern , i can't even say it, and now you wanna put external test bracket sats! he's tired! he's gorgeous! there's another technical term. right, so we don't want that one, we want this one? have been confirmed by sats. they've been confirmed ! been confirmed by sats ! okay. would you not be indicating end of key stage three somehow? or do the does everybody alright, for year nine pupils brackets, end of key stage three. yeah. okay? it's important these categories are set set out for us. mm so er so we don't want this box any more then? so what about this then? this box yes can disappear? that box will go and you'll have name and year that's home. spread out more across no, i've put report down there. i've put report down there, cos then you have science, report math's, report and i put ralph gardener community high school cos then i need space for community. i would put ralph gardener community high school report on the heading, i would put name, year and your subject there or, subject whatever i would tighten that up right. a bit. mm. i think that that the lettering will be thinner needs to stand, it's awful! mm. ralph gardener high school, community high school it's a needs to be, in my opinion, on it's own above the rest. report mm. andrew's a a little bit better on layout than me and i'm what yo you want ralph gardener high scho , community high school by itself? i bi i just thought it was where do you want report then? well ralph gardener community high school hyphen report. have i got space you see? will that not go on community school. the top? don't see why not. i'm going back a step but i think it's what do you mean? important. you're gonna tr er, well no nothing else will fit in that page but no eno not the package that you use ralph gardener community high school report. well we won't necessarily be using your package for doing this. mhm. fine! right, you use yours cos i'm not there! who whose gonna do it then? well i vote you! i'm i'm i was gonna come to, andrew's made an offer but volunteered a long right. time ago. that might, might er er erm it's we can be your system , what i'm saying is is it yours? . don't even know where it is! oh terry you mean. oh no, just that's alright sitting outside the kitchen. ah! those two a yes or a no? it's it's tonight's supper! does ralph gardener community high school hyphen report is the heading at the top. mm. yes? mhm. okay. then below it you would have da da, year and somehow the subject fitted in on a line across, below it? so you'd have what for? name, year and subject would go in there in that box that's been left free. do we agree that it should be big like that? i think it, i i like the yeah! idea of it yeah. the su the subject yes. stands out. yeah, that's right . er, do you want the subject er, lettering the size as that? this was andrew's no, i i i would like i'll sort that out. yeah. i like it like this. i i think probably we'll be in a situation where andrew will do a knock up well i think we need it smaller . there will be several formats that we can agree on at a later date. nice and big. wallpaper paul? yep. lovely jubbly! thank you very much, we've knocked that on the head. general skills and abilities we're down to now. which is gonna be a debatable one i would of thought. can we agree er the layout? ten point scale yeah. poor, satisfactory and excellent, scale and ability what we need to agree on is the skills and abilities that we want in there. would you use excellent rather than good. well no ten, level ten is bloody good! excellent , yeah. okay right, bloody good then, okay! right, bloody good ! and can we have crap instead of poor? yeah. crap, crap and bloody good, yes and er middling! why do you always have poor? weak? i want to convey that meaning but i would rather not use that word. it is poor. yes, i know but we're sensitive i've seen some words we we not me! i would really call spade on on the ten point scale alan a spade! wha what's written? is there not something, not poor something written ha, not w ! working towards ! you can't be working towards there! no the i tell you what andrew's saying about poor weak doesn't fit in. no. doesn't fit in, how do you mean? doesn't fit in with satisfactory and excellent. mm, no. no, it's gotta be poor. aye. now hang on pathetic! crap! shit ! ! the boy is shit ! altogether, mm. un un unsatisfactory instead of poor oh ! oh! another word instead of satisfactory. safe. oh! aye, we're going back to the norm making fair progress now aren't we ? yes, that's right, yes. he's making fair progress. one in two, one in two ! ! there's in somewhere. i'd like to think of something. let's think of something. hey, come on let's cause , one, level one and two are national curriculum scales for somebody in our school is poor! there's no value in it, don't start it off in that position as though there's an integral in it, all the longman's dictionary of all the same! life's a little bit more complex than that is it longmans? is that a longman's one? that's merely an over-view. yes it's longmans! is that a longmans dictionary? it certainly is. that i see before me? could i call for massination , a plan for doing harm. can, can we leave that word alone for for a moment cos i think it's a bit of red herring er, to some degree. pretty awful! it will stand unless er somebody can come forward with a very positive suggestion the mind's ! blank at the moment. how about pretty awful and pretty can ! can can, can we look at the skills and abilities? yes sir. cos you know this list is as good or as bad you want to make it. erm effort we have that in probably yes. everybody accept mhm. effort? there yeah. mhm. angela? yep, that's fine, mm. yeah? er we don't have concentration at the moment erm, i'm not sure question mark. does that fit yes i'm not sure about that. what we mean by concentration er, myself. mm. actually ju i made them up just in the spur of the moment. well that's fine! mm. that's no no sweat. sorry i haven't behaviour? it up. yep. yeah. mhm. yes . er i wrote following instructions because i wanted to somehow or other impart the ability to actually er, do something other than just er, to do something on their own, you know to actually work on their own. ability to actually do something rather than just copy something to follow instructions means they've got to actually do a ste step-wise thing. right? yeah we i must admit, would a, would a parent, i mean i was at a very simple level, following instructions, go and get that ruler jimmy? aha. in other words you know i in a sense vidable do doing as doing as vidable. they're told! yes. yes. mm. doing as they're told. mm. yeah. i i know what you're saying and it's different to the way i'm interpreting it. that's it, we need to follow a set of step lies, instructions becoming more difficult as you go on that what was intended. but you don't want to give the impression that our children are not . that's the old one. mm. yes, active right, okay. involvement. it must be there cos it's involvement. underneath that longman's alright. dictionary look. right. what about, what do you want paul, sorry? sorry, can i some of the old can have some oh they're there yeah. yeah, i'm . what about a word like involvement? the other thing don is what are the gen , what are the the erm skills and abilities, you see there is a mathematical theme, what are the, literacy, we're supposed yeah, we've got, yeah that to be addressing those. yeah that's got to go in there i think. have you got to say mathematical skills? no. no. no. i can't remember what that one is. i don't think aye not subject i think, i think a specific i think, yes, no i ju no there no are general skills yes. there are six or seven mm. they're in the bottom of mind they've gone completely! but would we not be calling yes, and i can't remember it numeracy rather than mathematical yes. skills? alright. alright,no no if you say numeracy then they'll know what it means but erm i fe i felt that numeracy and mathematical skills would not be applicable to all, i mean, i don't think it might no. be applicable to you, but right, right sorry! ? okay! er, it might not be applicable to talents or erm hand spans or things like that but i certainly would want to include it, it might be very important in, in my subject. and i would like to be able to include it. er, i think we would, oh! see, i think we're obliged to to now say something about erm these general skills, i think in light of what's been said in the last couple of weeks mm. there should also be in there something like grammar and spelling. no, i totally disagree with that! and certainly not in the light of what's been said in the last couple of weeks that's why? extremely questionable! what are the hell are they what what is that? the i mean if we're gonna discuss that that needs to be, you need to go over that in more detail. is is is is there not an element that hinges round orally to do with the yes. ability to orally speak? yes er, and literacy that's something different. mm. oh come on now! i mean the government is pushing er spelling a as as something which is very important spelling is going to be part of all course work as well as all examinations now! i'm not denying that. well therefore, it's important to everybody! i'm not denying that. therefore we better comment on it! well, no what i'm, what i'm denying is i'm questioning your assertion on what's been happening in the last couple of weeks that we should react to that on a pa on er er report that hasn't been released, right? that's been partially responded to some people suspect for political reasons and rushing to that on report and i think we need to consider that in a more way. but don't you think that spelling is important for everybody to ? of course i do! i think spelling's well why not ? important. angela i seem to rem the wrong one. remember that just a few weeks ago that you were de , almost denying that we'd have to do this sort of thing! what? do you, a few weeks ago? yeah, actually at the end of, end of i can't remember saying saying you last term yeah. oh! when don first actually broached this whole thing. no,a no with all due respect is tha is that re is that relevant? no, hang on here misrepresenting what i'm saying there. no, all i'm saying is that i'd like to support don and what don's just said there and i think that er, we a that is what we are gonna have to do. it might not be, be down as black and white but, no wait a minute cos they're two issues! at the moment. i , no, those are two i issues. mm. first of all you're misrepresenting what i'm saying about those figures mm. right? and, whether you believe that or not that is not effecting what i'm saying today and whether it's accurate or not! that's right! i i agree with you that those are concerns but i would not like things like grammar to be isolated out from other language skills no, not grammar but but basically, maths and english are the tools that the other subjects oh yes, i agree with you. are are are working could with. could we work under a more general, how would you feel about if we put something down like, i dunno, written work would, is is that i've got written work. does that not writing and neatness. writing and neatness , no spelling is a , to my mind, spelling is important. of course it is, i'm not denying that! are i i to you repeating yourself? no. if we put, what about orally and literacy? and that includes all. we are obliged, i'll say it again no, we're not we obliged! we are obliged now to write g c s e? to to to re to report on, er in all course work to take five percent of our yeah. er that's right. course work and base ma ma ma er do do something along the lines of spelling. sorry, i'm not putting it very well. yes, but that's assessed in english underneath the attainment target of writing. no, it's a separate ! but we're obliged every subject! that but anyway that doesn't ha hang on that that doesn't approve what you're saying, what i'm saying as far as english is concerned that's assessed underneath the attainment target writing mhm. what i'm concerned about is put things down like that, er like that it encourages erm an appreciation of language skills that are bitty, partial, they can be pulled apart and it's not the model of language teaching that i would like to promote. right. i'm not saying that spelling mm. isn't important, obviously as an english mm. teacher i'm not going to argue that but what i'm saying is that in this report i don't think that's necessarily the appropriate format. well how am i going to report to parents our spelling ? well reporting them un underneath the writ li literacy that is, that it's a literacy skill! but i think it's a bit more specific than that isn't it? right. if they don't, if they can't spell they're not literate! and if they can't write in sentences they're not literate! so you would just put in something for literacy? so well what i'm sugge , but as an alternative i'm suggesting that as far as that's concerned you put down well we no, i don't think most of parents would have a clue what you're talking about! i'm sorry! don't you? no. but we've don't apologise! but but you haven't argued with that mathematical innumeracy and i think it's a comparable situation! is it not? yes, well i i would object to i'm not su somebody talking about mathematical skills. i think we're saying the same thing. mhm. i'm trying to take an overview yeah, yeah. i think angela's saying exactly the same i'm trying to take an over-view. that alan's saying and i think we'll have to respect that with all du mhm. with all due respect. ah, but at the same time we don't have to comment on mathematical skills at g c s e. no. no, but the ar , the previous argument was whether there would be an un sa understanding of it, we won't understand literacy. i think we have to recognise angela's concern if er a subject area that she's trying to present, present and she is not precluding you from doing what you've got oh no ! to do, she's just offering a different way of doing it. if you like, a different heading under which to do it. well so she would put wha in you would put in what, sorry? just literacy. i would put literacy. because it involves more things. no no i disagree with that. yeah, i disagree, i think i would still like to put yep. spelling grammar punctuation yeah but whatever. but these is that not all part of literacy? yeah. if, you see if you put down literacy the the whole show's in there, i mean if you're going to put i , put isolated spelling it i it encourages a very limited view of what english is about and success in using language. it's nothing to do angela? with english! at that oh! andrew, comment that's on that? course it is, it's language is a i mean,a you sit outside it i medium of learning! any axe to grind? , it's not english subject area i'm talking about. erm yeah, the the the axe to to to grind is is yes, i pick up the the the political stick here er, that was you know, that that, you know from the other the other end to you and yeah, yes i also think we're being beaten with a with a with a stick here for three r's er, if we're forced into the corner of having to use an ignorant white hall idiots er inadequately educated. inadequately educated persons er, view of what it is to be well educated i.e. we've got to comment on the spelling as if it were important but i think it is. i think it is, yeah! ah, in the way that they i agree with what they're saying! in the way that they're saying it i agree with it, i in the way that they're saying it mm. then no. but if as educationalists taking full account the subject specialism and our own knowledge of it, we would care to make some comment then that is a different thing altogether. mhm. so that if we deal with it er er in a way that we can find a professionally acceptable mm. then i think that we ought to comment on it but if we are doing media response mm. then i don't think that we ought to go along with, for instance , just using a term like, spelling to mm. summarise it's something which it's more complex. is more complex than that. yeah. that's my i'm not saying it isn't important professionally, if we did that we'd be cheapening ourselves. i i i think absolutely! with all due respect here we have to respect the wishe , angela's wishes, er, i mean, on the one hand we're respecting alan's er er and i i no , i i'm gi it's not my, i i would just look at mathematical skills and saying that you're not really yo you don't really mean mathematical skills. i mean, for most of you aha. yo you know, i mean i i i if andrew were saying he's he's he's pretty limited at maths you wouldn't really be meaning limited in maths, you'd be meaning lim , limited in certain skills. numeracy because andrew wouldn't have been testing algebra or things like that, you'd have just been looking at the numbers. oh! see oh!. and that's what i'm saying. mhm. so you're wanting a general yes that doesn't exclude but includes all of that, but at the same time although everybody that's going to read it may not understand the intricacies of it all as professionals we're giving more than a passing nod, so that was something else, er er and something more involved than english teacher than making them jump through loops mm. and cross t's and dot i's! but that,a a that's what i said if it's just a to you! no, if i may aye, i er, something's just occurred to me and we are looking we are looking, the other heading here of general skills and abilities.,. and se spelling spelling is very specific. is specific. mm. and on that basis i would but go along with literacy. li literacy and and i think i'm i'm always inclined to do a colin and say, you know right. i've made my mind up and that's the way it's gonna be! i hate but doing things like that but i i i i believe quite strongly what angela's saying er, if you came to me and presented something ba ba, a total er, conviction that it might be in a sense damaging er the er the the the concept people have of your subject, or might have i would listen very carefully to that, and i also ta , i remember gordon saying some time ago and whilst gordon drove me crackers he talked about the government saying you've gotta do this, you've go and he said there are things that we must believe in as educationalists ourselves, and professionalists i agree. ourselves despite what the governors mhm. er, the government say to us. and i believe personally in this context it would be foolish, at the moment, to go down a narrow road until such time as we are ca have you done much work? i've done some work. i've tried good. to sort of good. what the hell i was supposed to do with . what were you doing ? there's some i'm totally totally confused on . you were doing differentiating and then yeah. leaving it and then going back to it to see if you could integrate it plus some graphs . some of it. yeah. no no i don't know what i've done with the graph. i've been concentrating on trying to okay. i've gone through these i don't know how many times. right. i done them and then i've took them down and i've gone back. i've g i've got about a half a dozen sheets of paper scattered all over the place, and i've decided to do it in this cos then i can just go to here. right. so i've done that. now i can understand that, understand that. right. that goes to that, two x, but i'm not sure why. now is that that cosh squared x ? yeah. right. and that is goes to two x. shine squared x. you mean do you mean ? no. it's two x in the book. yeah. okay. now he does make mistakes so that's not a erm problem. mm. and then there's that i can understand. but that is actually is not like that. that's x squared but when it's differentiated cos you've gotta go back into the bracket it comes out as that. right. and that then goes in okay. that. so i understand that bit. what you're doing i mean you're coming along very well really. but aren't you? i'm not doing too bad. i think you're doing very well but its like that. i don't get y to twelve. i mean i know th i know that you carry the sine on because mm. it goes to sine squared, so you you only differentiate one and according to okay. that goes to sine squared. right where your twelve comes from. well it it must be three times four is equal right. to twelve. okay. but it doesn't always go to the front of them. like here. yeah. well the use of the the two x. so i'm not conversant with all the rules. mm. okay. erm how did you differentiate these? i mean are you learning these as they are or i mean no. do them? how are you doing it? no i've i've just all i've done is because erm because that is a function of that right. i've differentiated that. well i didn't differentiate it but i but i did because i couldn't decide . as i as i was talking about for a new pattern . how much you want to write it in there, it's up to you. just show me how you did that one. well, all i that one did was that i didn't know whether to do three sine squared right ? mm. then differentiate the four x because that's your x value. so that'd be three times the four sine squared. then to differentiate the whole lot because it goes to cos. mm. and that is is is not what i get cos what i was doing is doing them meself and then well what yeah. what going and checking the answer. erm and then if me answer was wrong trying to mm. work out . can you describe your methods. how you how you'd do that. sort of writing down as many steps as you can. ah. that's why i couldn't i thought i hadn't got me pen. erm well all draw a nice picture instead. all i did is i look at what i've got and if it's just a single term like that right. then you yeah. know to just differentiate it. when it's two terms like the the log erm and what like that mm. each of the two x multiplied by sine. okay. that brings on another rule. like that okay brings another rule. erm differentiate this for me then. er three x squared plus two. and put some brackets round that and raise that to the power five. okay y equals that. sh show . me all the steps. divide by d x two. that goes at the front, right? mm. to begin with. right. now you get erm three x squared plus two and then you differentiate what's in there, which'll give you six. so if you multiply it by six and it's still raised to the power . if you differentiate three x squared what do you get? six. differentiate six x. right. now. . okay. right. that's, that's the method. now why're you doing this? what's the theory behind it? dunno. right. now what you're doing, or what you're, you're attempting to do erm if i say y equals p hmm. find d y by the x. and you can't cos you haven't got a you haven't got an x in sight. mm. now what you've got here is y equals u to the power five. yeah. right? now there isn't an x in sight. mm. i've only got three x squared plus two there but you can't differentiate whit respect to three x squared plus two and then say you actually done it with respect to x . so erm you've seen the cha chain rule function and a function. mm. this is, this is what you should be doing with it really. erm we've got that. y equals that. yeah. right. let u three x squared plus two. okay. now we've got y equals u to the power five. so we c can't find d y by d x mhm. but we can find d y by d u. right? which is no problem. mhm. five by d to the four. yes? mhm. well that's found d y by d u but what we're looking for is d y by d x. and d y by d x is what? in terms of u and everything else. remember what that bit? how to work that out? erm isn't it the u . okay. the easy way to remember it mm. is write it like that. d y by d x equals d y d y over something times something over d x with d u in there cancel out. it isn't quite as simple as that but it works. mm. okay. so d y by d x gives d y by d u times d u by d x. well if u is equal to that mhm. we can differentiate that with respect to x. we can find d u differentiating this side with respect to x you get d u by d x and mm. on that side then you'll get six x. mm. okay. so we want to find d y by d x and it's d y by d u then it's d u by d x. well we've found d u by d x and we've found d y by d u. so d y by d u is equal to d y by d x is equal to d y by d u, which we've found from here, from y equals yeah. u right?four, times d u by d x which we found up here right? now we haven't got x in it yet so we can't give them the answer in that form cos they didn't tell us anything about u. you invented that so where do you put you place u five times whatever u was three x squared plus two all to the power four times six x because normally bring that to the front. three x. right. is one. and you get thirty x. . mm. okay? now, that's, that's what you should be doing each time with these with that in and and that much in sort of as a minimum. you wil you've obviously sort of seen the method somewhere and you're trying to do it in your head, but cos you're not going through it in a fairly formal way mm. you're most of the time you're getting it right cos this is just making the right sort of guess and you're seeing the sort of when it gets to the awkward ones y you're just sort of well maybe it's that, maybe its something else. does that yeah. help? it does help, i mean that that i have seen before but i didn't sort of understand it and you've actually well the thing is after a while when you've done quite a few it comes it comes fairly easy, and you can do it in your head. mm. but when you get to one where you can't do it in your head you've got to go back to this bit. yeah. and sometimes i mean there, we sort of let . there might be times when we let you do the whole lot or when you have to have more than one go at it. mm. erm i mean if you've got something like, for example, erm say we've got the one we've just had. y equals something to the power . to the power five right ? mm. but it wasn't three x squared plus two . mm. it was erm sine sine squared six x plus cos three x mm. right. now doing that in your head would be a bit awkward. mm. but there you'd do it in three goes i mean, you could probably do it in two goes, but to be safe you could split it up into three goes so what rule does that bring out because that . well is that still the same, you just there's an there's an add in there. mm. right. so lets erm . yeah. l equal seven x okay and m equals d x. right we don't we can probably do these these bits in your head quite easily. mm. okay. so we've got here, differentiate that we get d l by d x. d m by d x is true. mm. now what were trying to find inside . we haven't done anything about this. it's all to the power five yeah? mm. so we could maybe do what we did last time. let u equal this lot in the brackets. sine squared seven x. three x now we're trying to find d u by d x. mm. at some stage. well you could probably do that one in your head. mm. and what would that come to? erm that'd be fourteen cos squared seven x. so if you differentiate sine squared what do you get? that. cos squared. cos squared well that's what i wanted to ask you. what happens to them? because i know i asked one of my friends mm. because i wasn't i said how come it ends up being that and they said you just carry. when you're using the trig function and you're differentiating mm. it, that you do use because it goes to the front but it stays the same. it carries on right the way through. you don't lose the value of it. good. right. okay. but the squares i wasn't sure what happens to them and i confused him by asking him. okay. let's look at this. erm l is equal to seven x mm. so so it'll be about five stages in this. working it out any of them them all and then you can miss out the ones we do you feel you don't need. just look at that bit. you're trying differentiate what's inside there with respect to something. well if you've got something like erm that one. tan plus seven x. so we've got y equals sine l what're we having? seven x. mm. squared. squared. we write it like that because it's sine squared, it is more obvious what the meaning is. mm. now we can't differentiate that with respect to l. mm. because it's not l, it's sine l. okay. if that was i if that was l squared y equals x squared, you could differentiate that with respect to x. if it's y equals l squared you could differentiate it mm. to l. it's not. it's sine. so we'll differentiate gonna have another substitution on this one. so it's all just goes on and on and on until you can get something that's erm a straight forward one letter to the power so you can differentiate it. so let h equal sine l. mhm. now we've got y equals h squared. well that's no problem. d y by d h cos now two h. mm. but now we've got h equals sine l. does that define d h by d l? mm. and if you differentiate sine sine l you get? five sine l erm cos l. erm well we've got cos . now we're trying to find from this one. let's work out what we're going to do. we're trying to find d y by d x but we can't find that, mm. so we're going for d l d l by d x mm. times d y by d l. mhm. okay? why isn't that er cos ? if you differentiate sine x what do you get? cos x. we don't get cos x or so because you took the number of x value away. erm if you substituted l. you've taken that, you've squared x so you've got you've made that into another value. right? so mm. you've made that y equal to h squared. so that becomes h so the value of that i started off let h equal sine l. yeah. right. now if if all let's say all we've got to differentiate was y equals sine squared x. mm. now i could find d y by d sine x. mm. differentiate that, with respect to sine x but not with respect to x. no . right. and if i if i found d y by d sine x that would show me, not the gradient of this curve, mm. the gradient of the curve that i would get if i plotted y against sine x. mm. but we're plotting y against x which'll obviously be a very different curve with mm. lots of different gradients thank you very much sir. thank you. right i'll leave you to it. so for that there's there's no way of differentiating that with respect to x. there is eventually because you learn it. you know oh it comes out as cos x. mm. or comes out as whatever it comes out as. right? you can differentiate sine x on its own like that. y plus cos x, but we can't differentiate that straight off without changing and doing the substitution. so we'll let er what letter haven't we used yet? q. so if we let q equal sine x we can find d q by d x we can differentiate this side with respect to x and that side q by d x when we differentiate . mm. okay? now we've let q equal sine x so we've got y equals q squared. we'll differentiate that with respect to q. no problem. right? differentiate both sides with respect to q to q. right. okay? but we're looking for here, d y by d x so we have d y by d x is equal to and we just write, d y d x. d y by d q there d y by d q two q. is two q times q by d x . okay? mhm. now we've found d y by d x all we need to do is put back q to what it was. mm. right which is sine squared x. so s two sine squared x mhm. okay. so you're sort of right in a way that it's two sine squared x but this wrong. are you are you happy with that?? yeah. mhm. okay get y equals x squared no problem. two x. mm. y equals log x squared you can't just picture log x. no. very very different. we're finding the gradient the gradient on a specific graph when we plot the x against the y, the y against the x. right? mm. if we say well that looks a bit awkward so we're going to plot the y against sine x or the y against log x mm. erm or the the y against i mean in this one if you you could plot that against x which is the normal way. if you tried to plot that against think of how you'd do it if you had a graph and you plotted y against three x squared plus two. mm. well you'd just get y equals a graph that would look exactly the same as y equals x to the . yeah. which is why the gradient of it would be five times that expression to the power four. yeah. okay. but that would not be the gradient of plotting y against x. a very different graph. mm. so . try and think of what you do when you find d y by d x. it becomes oh well you you do some little tricks on numbers and you shuffle them about and that's the answer they want. mhm. if you can get it back that's why i say do the graph if you can get it back to erm but it's not just something to the fifth, it's really it's something to the tenth. right okay one way differentiating that mm. is multiply it out. you've got five lots of brackets there. three x squared plus two every one. mm. in the half an hour multiply them all out, right? and you get terms in x to the tenth. yeah. everything else all the way down. and you could just differentiate each term quite simply then. once you've done the multiplying, the differentiation would be very simple. there'd just these straight powers of x, and you could do that and you'd get to the same answer as we get to it's just that this is a quicker way of doing it. mm. but that, that is a y equals something x to the tenth, so it's it's not going to have a gradient that requires y equals something to the tenth. mm. which is why you must do that sort of that that's probably all you need for that bit. to know what you're doing right. erm i think it would be useful for you do one the same way. erm we'll do a fairly simple one and then use the same one but make it a little bit more complicated. mm. what what rule is that? the chain rule? a function of a function mm? the chain rule. you can't do it in one go, so you split it down into bits. because it is a function of a function of x? yeah. right. and then they want the gradient of y against x. not y against the function, a sub-function of x . mm. so if we get something like right. have a go at that one. yeah. so we put the or sine squared think it's better leaving it like that because it's sine brackets well what do you think? well i think erm think it's probably better if . okay. go on. have a have a have a go, see what happens with that. alright. well i know now that that's not right. good. okay. well okay. fine. if you know it's not right, scrub that. think of something more useful to let u be equal to cos this is the the main part of it. working out what you're going to put u equal to. well if i put u equal because brackets the bracket there . right. . and . okay. and let that equal sine squared. well we've had that already, but sine squared doesn't mean anything. no. does it? i'd like you to get your calcu calculator out, look up the sine of some some number but i'm not going to tell you what it is and then square it. mm. but how do you separate that then? that's it. that's that's it until i know or i know what i'm actually looking for in it i can run around chasing me tail all day which right. is basically what i do know. right. okay. okay what've we got here? erm if i said y equals sine squared x, mm. you couldn't differentiate that . mm. you'd have to do what we did on the other page . you'd have to do this. mm. so that was sort of on this one. what do we do there? what do we let u equal to? squared let y equal q squared. mm. yeah, so we let the whole thing there that was raised to the power be equal to something. so if we let v not u right, we let u be that, mm. and let v if if u is zero, mhm. then v will be you can write it as sine squared but i'm just writing this way cos it it means more. sine v brackets raised to the power . three equals sine u squared. okay? right, can you take it from there do you think? well, i'll have a go. try to sort of keep in mind what you're aiming for but don't rush getting there. see the steps along the way. . is that right? right, can you see what you're doing? yeah. this isn't a simple two stage one like the other one. you've got to try and work out what this middle step's going to be. mm. i'll give you i'll give you a clue and see if you can work out how you're going to get towards it. what we're going to do the way we can work it is something like d y by d x is equal to, now we've got that, mm. so we can differentiate both sides there with respect to u. mm. and find d v by d x. so we can d v by d u. d v by d u times what do you want . then come across d y by and at the end, d x. so what've we got in terms of x? we've got d u. yeah. so we can find d u by d x. so we can find something by d u. mm. what've you got in terms of u? we've got d v in terms of u so we can find d v by d u. so we get d y by d y by d v mm. right? times d v by d u. mm. times d u by d x. which is simply those and those cancelling out. and mm. it comes to? d y by d u that'll come to d y by d x. so that that'll go out with that that'll go out with x an you get d y by d x. so you've got you've got the v in terms of u. yeah. so you can find d v by d u. okay? we've got u in terms of x so you can find d u by d x. and you've got v, now. erm you've got y. where's y gone? you haven't got y in this one. okay. then what's y equal to? open your present then antony. happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear antony, happy birthday to you shall we take a picture go ahead. enjoying yourself? antony. you like my picture? mm? no, no, no this is not made to play with i want you blow it now antony yes antony, come and stand up over here now. come over here. hello hello how are you? er how are you? alright. i'm not gonna pass it down to you. you're not? no. are you sure of that? i'm gonna leave you to it. pete it's fred . i'll leave, i, i won't stay with you cos i don't want you get too okay then. collapse, me too. go in and sit down a sec. i'm moderately well. let me come quite clean on that and tell you that you, at the very moment i hope you are being recorded. good heavens. a cross section. yes er actually the lady dropped in on me yesterday so i well i suppose it's erm sounds quite an interesting an interesting idea. yeah, i thought so. i'm not convinced that we can establish exactly what we're after erm the sort of conversation or communication what that people use. yeah, it seems to me that erm they are it's er going to be a comparative thing from nineteen ninety two, and then in, we'll say nineteen ninety seven for argument's sake. the trouble is or, or or gradually er on. increasingly i think nowadays people converse in not a foreign language, because the terms that people use are familiar but meanings that they intend are not, and th th th the computer people are the worst because they use ordinary words which mean completely different things in the than context of,o o of people just yeah talking yeah, yeah. and there they, they talk about a database which is a it's not an english word no a computer so what on earth does it mean? mm. well i used the word to mo er in a report i was writing years ago it was ten years ago and i knew what i meant but i hadn't sat down and defined what i meant, perhaps i should have done. mm. since then a program's been written called database one which means something completely different which has been updated to database two and three and may be four, which mean different things, that's why they've got different numbers, they do more clever things and nowadays you talk, you hear people talking about databases and they all mean different things. they usually mean a file of information which is processed by different, completely different computer systems. one, as it were, to pick out addresses, one to pick out socio-economic groups, one to pick out motor cars, one to pick out number of bedrooms, one to pick out whatever, and trivially or, or superficially everyone says the same thing, a database, it's on the database, now yeah. the file is there, that's a computer term, or exactly that, a l a, a listing of names, addresses and houses and cars and everything else, and a file is a defined computer term, what you do with it is the next thing mm. and the way in which you do what you do with it depends on what you put in. if you only put people in who are owner-occupiers then you will not have all the information, all the people, who are in rented accommodation. yeah, yeah. if you only put in people who live in houses, you'll not have all the people who live in maisonettes and flats mm yeah . if you are not eligible to be put in if you don't have a motor car then you're discounting an enormous number of people who may have motorcycles or motor caravans or, you know, something which is perfectly valid but it invalidates the information that you think you are getting out of the file because you only put in certain perfectly reasonable, groups of er of things and i in, in, in boots there's a, there's a er there's a a wonderful expression or actually is, is the one i'm particularly thinking about, you know we, we sell shall we say a million bottles of aspirin a year, it is in fact considerably more than that, and that is perfectly reasonable and valid and mm but in the definition of that we obviously only included what boots the chemists sold because that's all the people who yeah, that's sold bottles yeah of aspirin yeah. made by boots. but now of course there's crooks and that means, not bottles of aspirins, bad example, but strepsils the lozenges for example, are now sold in an enormous range of private pharmacies which are not boots and they are therefore completely outside the term output, it may be a restricted term, it may not be the one we want, but that is what it was meant and that is what the number is generated from. now of course er we've sold the er chain of chemists in canada who might have sold bottles of aspirin but, before we sold the chain, there was another enormous quantity of bottles of aspirin which wasn't defined, it was something which was introduced after, long after we defined what we meant by outputs of aspirin. and the rate of change of, of, of society no the background to what we're doing, shifts the goalposts is the fashionable term but what you thought you meant you no longer mean, and of course, if one is meticulously methodical, one adjusts the definition as the circumstances change yes, yeah we don't do that. yeah. not with a thing like a outputs of aspirin, i mean everyone in boots knows what the outputs of aspirin are just strange that they are in fact three times what we'd thought they were and we've course there's crooks, course there's this, course there's that tremendous discernment, tremendous understanding but if you haven't got that tremendous understanding, you've just joined the company, you think you know something and you don't because not what they think they are mm, mm and er anyway, how are you? i, i'm not too bad. i feel that er it's been a, a slightly peculiar month really. sort of, when we went to see jan's mother for christmas, i was saying to myself yeah, mm this time last year i was on holiday from work yeah. now i am retired and er yes last year i was feeling a bit decrepit, you know i used to go for a full wal walk round after lunch, after dinner, around where she lives and it's much harder now . mm, how long is it since you knocked off work sick? well i got flu in february last year february ninety one? yeah. s so ah. and i never went back. yeah. but you were presumably feeling not well before then? yeah. well you, you, you, you, you know the, you know the, the scenario that everything goes wrong, you know, everything goes wrong you know from time to time and you say to yourself oh it'll get better mm. it gets better and you say ooh i'm tired yes, that's right. oh i've had a bit of a day or erm ooh, whatever it is, and erm i said to myself i am making allowances for being tired and getting, getting on a bit, you know, and that went on for quite a while actually until i said to myself i'm making up allowances you know, i'm yeah, yeah. there is something seriously, seriously queer you know maybe it's a brain tumour, you know, maybe it's er i'm going potty, maybe it's all sorts of things, and fortunately i er i s i went to the vet and erm two weeks before he retired but you know he, he was full of experience, that's really what i'm saying, he wouldn't be retiring otherwise yeah, yeah and er he said to himself there's something i, i, i don't know what it is necessarily but there is something, go to a specialist and the specialist was very very good you know blah blah blah blah you want some te i want some tests, you know, so i had some tests, you know and the crew that were doing the tests they knew what they were looking for and they either found it or they didn't, don't know. but in due course er when i was still off with flu, erm back to the specialist another test, you know, and that was er march, april of last year and the result of it was that there is something in there which is characteristic of what's, what we call multiple sclerosis which seems to me is about as broad as it's long, you know, it's, it's a very large yes i i i it's one of those erm illnesses that erm the average person knows of it and, and knows just a little bit but doesn't know very much. well an an an and i, it seems to me that the, the er i mean you go, you go to the er to the m s society and you find just about everybody there, you know, you find people who, who are in wheelchairs, you find people who are walking around, you find people who are er controlling their diet you find people who are obs s taking extreme dietary precautions, no, not precautions, no they are taking extreme care of their diet, er er i mean on gluten-free diets and you know what that means mm. you can't have anything which has any yeah. wheat or barley or anything connected and you find other people who are walking around relatively independently and you find people who are walking around slowly mm. and you find erm people like lynn you know, bless her, who now, who isn't too bad when she's not too bad and isn't too good when she's not too good, you know, and it is such a very very not only can you not put anything visibly in in common with everyone that's got it, even the people that have got it can't say i cannot do this period, they say oh well i'm not too good now but maybe last week or maybe next week yeah, yeah. so it's erm it's all a bit peculiar. you now have to get, in er er, because there was a sort of erm gradation from being off ill, which wasn't familiar, to being off long term sick which you can't have any experience of to erm early retirement on health grounds and you just can't have any experience of that either erm to being retired and it's,i i it's, it's quite interesting mm. going from one to the other in a year yeah, i thought it was longer than that you know. well erm the er th th th the first and most horrific incidence was i think in the may, no no no it wasn't may, it was when we went down to s to cats in london which was at the end of eighty nine beginning of ninety and i went to, i went to the the doctor in june of nineteen ninety and odd things were sort of going through nineteen ninety, but it wasn't until nineteen ninety one and i was off ill and it all went mm. so it's, it's all part of er life's rich tapestry and erm yeah. and is janet, has janet been able to go back to work yet? er obviously she's not fit at the moment. well she's been back she has? yeah. and erm in fact she was back all the all the, all the summer no i meant fairly recently no. is it since she er was not well, mm. erm we had gone down to, to, to bognor to the christening of her, our nephew and she wasn't too,th that was in november, it was sort of middle of november, and something was going wrong there and so when i, when i was retiring on the twenty seventh of november she couldn't come in and er was that to boots? d yeah, yeah. month of december was sort of off and trying to do odd things and then she went down with this, this flu er which was progressively worse since the new year. so, you know what these girls are, they sort of i personally, you know, as it were a trained scientist, a certified chemist who you tend to, to take a, a slightly er diagnostic view of things, but that's not quite right, but you take a slightly objective view of things and i, i, i, i've been thinking to myself ah it is rotten unfair on girls because sometimes sort of between about fifteen and twenty five, but now i suppose because they're all growing up so much earlier it's between ten and twenty, they have a pretty monumental change, they, and, and it's not a bundle of laughs but they can talk to their friends, they can see their friends and talk to their mothers, they can get a vague way it's gonna affect them and they can you know, sort of, let's say twenty, twenty five settle into a routine which has variations every, during the four weeks and they vary between individuals, i mean it's well known yeah, that's right. you know that s some don't really have a great deal of problem, others really do have a sort of off work for two or three days every month and it's not a bundle of laughs because, you know, that really must be difficult, but they, they get a rough idea of how it for them mm. and it goes through their, for the rest of their twenties, the rest of their thirties and most of their forties and then suddenly bang maybe something ghastly seems to be happening which they are absolutely unaware of, you know, they don't know why they are crying or, or er unable to cope with whatever they can't cope with and that's it, that's them off and they start worrying about er osteoporosis and you know an enormous number of, of now medically defined problems of the menopause, and they may start going on to all sorts of things like hormone replacement therapy or even primrose oil or whatever the hell and they're sitting there at an age when they are fairly loaded up with experience and maturity and all the rest of it and they don't know what they are doing . all the wisdom of er in, in writing and doctors and everything else says oh it all varies you know some do this and some do that some go straight through in a regal dignified way and they just carry on into relatively old age, you know, smooth as relaxed, nothing to worry about, away. mm, mm and tt jan was er was er wondering during last year and went on to hormone replacement therapy because she was and the doctor was a bit concerned about possible osteoporosis which is erm brittle bone yeah i it's, it's obviously a thing which, if one can possibly avoid it's a good idea to and erm i must say it helped but it you don't know what is helping because you know we don't know what her symptoms are going to be . maybe h r t was helping what her symptoms would have been if she hadn't taken them, maybe they were worse because she was, maybe they were the same in spite of it, but i dunno. er anyhow th th the, the eventual thing was maybe her blood pressure was going up higher than it should and maybe whether the cumulative stress of having a husband off in my state, maybe yeah what her, you know maybe all sorts of things yeah well this is,th this is it i mean th th there are often a lot of things happening at the same time er er some of which as you just sort of hinted at are sort of er erm of a psychological er er have a psychological factor in them which all add to it don't they? well my feeling is that you know if yo if you're car doesn't run tinker with the carburettor and if it still isn't running right, tinker with something else, if you like, the fatal thing is to tinker with both because then you just don't know what you've got, and erm she's been on, on this hormone replacement which is er er no big deal but, you know, hormones are well th big things. i, i, i've met ladies who have, have really benefited oh yeah from it. oh yeah. yeah. erm her blood pressure was being, being depressed er by some other, you know, blood pressure regulator and erm one of the side effects of hormone replacement may be, yeah,that people's susceptibility to migraine is heightened. so y y y you, you, you, you've got at least three things which are all sort of brewing up there and you think good grief what a, what a, what a state to be in because the poor doctor doesn't know what on earth to do, poor jan doesn't know, well it's worse for jan cos she's sitting there thinking i'm going potty or, you know, can't stand properly or you know is leaning over or, or numb down one side of her face or, or or whatever it was, it was i i it was the, the dizziness i think actually which which was most alarming. and so erm get flu on top of it all erm quite. it really is a very difficult, difficult erm yeah there's quite a bit of flu about at the moment isn't there? yeah. well what i know the answer is is to say don't worry be concerned but don't worry because worrying doesn't do you no good, it doesn't do the condition no good and it doesn't do everybody else any good either because they just say oh she's you know what she is, depressed by whatever it is and that's, as it were, objectively logical but wh wh what seems to me to be the absolutely overwhelming is to say he's not worried, he's desperately concerned, he's more concerned than humans can possibly be but if god isn't worried, what on earth are we burning up our resources worrying about because if he's not worried concerned yes, but he's not worried. who are you talking about now? god. oh god, yeah. yeah. i mean he is desperately concerned, i mean he, he loves us all with a concern which just er er er er i is greater than anything we can understand, so concern at the at the slightest er doubt about, i can't understand how concerned he is but er i totally relax yeah but if the god of heaven is concerned that's fine, he's not worrying because he created the whole thing, therefore it seemed to me pretty good reason to be concerned concerned but not worried. but not worried, and i'm certainly not yeah i, well i'm with you mm you know, lying awake at nights you know cos er th three and four in the morning everything's quiet, you know, mm. the heating's off yeah. i think people who are liable to worry about their condition have a very very difficult time at three and four in the morning and er old ladies are particularly vulnerable i think. well i, i had a period of waking up at four isn't it and not going off again. isn't it mind you demoralising? yeah but i'd far sooner do that than not get off to sleep at night. yeah i think that's that's right, you know. that's where everyone's different of course but erm i, i think it is, it is it is a factor that erm one can watch television or can listen to the radio or one can go for a walk or do all sorts of things as it were before noon and midnight but three or four in the morning, you know, when everything is mm at a very low level i think it's a very potentially demoralising thing mm al although yeah although it didn't, it didn't i w i wasn't too concerned about it, i thought well you know i'm resting er and er i'm the sort of person who only needs about six hours, if i get six hours i'm okay erm, you know, on a regular basis i'm talking about. so er i mean it didn't really affect me too much. but it's a low time isn't it? and it can be mm. well er well er here again i think er it's the old old story of erm it affects different people different ways. where some people are better a at night i'm erm i'm now talking about before going to bed mm. th than first thing in the morning erm whereas i, i think probably i am probably better as soon as i get up than last thing at night. yes er i, i, i, i think one's either an owl or a some other bird which,wh wh which doesn't at night but does by, by, by day you know. yeah i, i, i think that er the, the, the m s society have er er say that we've got eighty thousand members in the united kingdom, great britain, northern ireland only problem is they appear to have eighty thousand different conditions yeah yeah that's absolutely right. every doctor will say you know yeah yeah. people do differ yeah. and some of them differ so much from others who you put in the same box and you mm. think well maybe we've got the box wrong. mm. i think, i think that's it and er tt you mentioned christopher , what er the last time it's, i'm going back a little while, the last time i was talking with janet he, she was a bit unhappy, i think he was in er a teaching practice at the time and she was wondering how he was going to go on. that must be the best part of the year ago i should think though now. yeah. well the, the, the, the, the sort of, the sort of background as i have seen it he never struck me as being particularly clever or bright it's just that he always seemed to be very well taught and academically successful and exams never seemed an undue problem, and so he went off to wolverhampton poly which he selected for, you know, all the usual reasons, reasonable place, reasonable course, a reasonable this a reasonable that,tt erm to do computer science which of course all the kids want to do now erm twentieth centu no it isn't it's a sort of nineteen eighties version of wanting to be an engine driver isn't it? they all want to be so he went off to be a computer scientist and either he was too interested in er what he describes as cult television which you think but it's not television,i i it's, it's doctor who and, and prisoner and, you know er very interesting and very easy for enthusiasts to direct a lot of their time and energy to maybe i don't maybe there was a increased pressure to work and study which was erm self motivated rather than being externally imposed, maybe he maybe there was a fundamental lack of enthusiasm in him for what is described as the hardware of computing, the, the, the, the, the instruments, the machines maybe there was a less than comprehensive understanding of what is known as the firmware, that's to say i mean operating systems that are built into the thing to make it work, you've got to understand the firmware because otherwise you don't understand what the machine will think you mean and what that will do and i would have thought that whereas superficially you can ignore the firmware, it's all in there, it understands as you, i would have thought, grew into a er a graduate computer scientist you've got to have some idea about that. er maybe he was, i think, a little superficial in his enthusiasm for what is referred to as the software, that's to say that's the computer programs that you yeah. write, you write and er feed into the thing which it operates along the rules defined by its firmware which someone else has put into it. anyhow, whatever it was, maybe a little, as jan says, he also had a f a bad flu bug at a bad time anyhow he crashed out of the computer science course and he announced that he was only regarding the computer science course as being a stepping stone to being a teacher so the sensible thing to do would be to go on to the teacher training course at lancashire, an education course, cos that's what he wanted to do. so that cost an awful lot of money because he was on a grant of course and he, he spent er about a year as a trainee teacher and we thought that was great because he was, he was dealing with, with er wasn't he i in juniors yeah yeah well i can't remember what the terms are, infants er there's infants and juniors isn't there? yeah it,i it's the very young ones ah infants. it was the very young ones and er the vast majority of infant teachers are girls yeah. and so he had a a degree of uniqueness and er in the area that he was vast numbers of ethnic minorities so he was er he was a white male vegetarian and i would have thought it was absolutely great, you know,he really, i would have though had a stimulating, challenging lovely environment to, to, to be in, i, i, i, i, i hoped that if he was going , i thought he was going to go on, it was just going to be very expensive tt paying his fees, his this i was therefore a little surprised and very disappointed when he failed his teaching practice. erm i was, i was a bit erm about that, you know, i just though what on earth now? he is unemployed and receiving state benefit as employed which isn't very much is he at home or is he down there? he wants, wants to stay with us forever yeah quite. quite. i erm am obviously feeling guilty cos i'm not feeling guilty but it makes me cough a bit to go to the post office every week and get vastly more disabl disability er invalidity benefit than he gets, vastly more. and each month boots pensions limited pay me a very reasonable pension. mm. large, not generous but i think good grief poor christopher's sitting there . i agree the state is picking up his, his rent which is er er quite a lot er but even so, you know,he hasn't got very much money and cannot have a very enthusiastic view of what the future holds yeah, yeah. it's a very bad time. it is bad yeah. so he's, he's now doing er a level psychology and g s c e sociology at night school whilst he is keeping his days free to try and get a job which is not easy anywhere right. it is no easier in greater wolverhampton, and if you have eczema and a congenitally weak back you aren't actually falling over yourself in prospects for the best chances. so erm we're both very concerned, not worried, very concerned about what on earth he is doing and what he is going to do. yeah quite. you know he's twenty two, twenty three years old, you know, you know whatever he's doing he's liable to be with him for a few years yet and what can one see yeah. you know? yeah. there just doesn't seem to be anything on the, on the horizon. so after he's, he's sat these two exams erm is he doing them this year? yeah, mm. he may be eligible to be on a training course, for what we don't know, but er after you've been unemployed six months you are either required to or you have the opportunity to, or you can go on a state training course but what they train you for or to do we, we haven't actually got defined yet. and possibly either after that or simultaneously with that or to transfer there, he might go up to live in his father's house up in yorkshire, mytholmroyd er er i dunno but it seems to me that if there is a worse place to be unemployed than wolverhampton, west riding has gotta be erm a competitor yeah, yeah and hebden bridge and sowerby bridge seem to be, you know, on each side of m mytholmroyd, you know, on a railway line from halifax which goes through to and todmorden and places. beautiful part of the world, you know, maybe that's exactly what you wanna do, you wanna kick out wolverhampton and go for mytholmroyd particularly if you've got a house or if your father's got a house there which is there maybe a lot, a lot , a lot going for it but you're looking for this long term prospects yeah quite er it doesn't sound too good. so er i i thought to myself well i dunno, i dunno all these newton girls have been off to sri lanka or or, or zaire or wherever and you'd you know, isn't that great? don't really want to he's not very keen on the prospect of going v s o or whatever. and then i say to myself oh come on, oh don't say when i was your age i wanted did nearly or whatever. say but then they have to er raise money to go. right. i mean it i think it's only, i don't think he, he's there's any cheap answers no. and i know la well some time when retirement was looking on the on the horizon i was saying to him you're not alone but, you know, you've gotta be looking towards being on your own because of course mother and i hope father and i will be around to want to pick up what we can to help you've gotta start thinking about standing on your own feet, you know, because admittedly i er i, i, i could turn out to be not as bad a financial state as i anticipated but i never was stinking rich and i'm certainly not stinking rich now, so erm i mean no but quite apart from that, er th there's anybody er needs to aim to be self sufficient don't they? well i, i, i, i think that you've got to move in that direction rather than maintaining the status quo. so erm if, if it was er if it was a matter of oh bankrolling him out to wherever it was or supplementing his own resources okay, but the, the experience and i mean the personal experience as well as the er the skills experience mm. that yeah but he's got to want to do it. quite. er erm that's the, that's the crucial bit. absolutely. there is no possible way of shipping an unwilling young person out. no that's right. because even i don't think there ever was. e e even those that er you know are definitely wanting to go and keen can get homesick fairly soon. oh yeah. but you know erm if, if, if you look back to the days of the raj erm it was a even within my living memory, erm people were joining the armed services or the overseas er er corp and the civil service overseas i suppose, yeah, er at a, at a fairly humble level and would either work their way up or they drink themselves stupid or they get mixed up with someone or they, you know but it was a, a, a recognized way of, of, of going, you know, either join the services or the mm. or the church of course was another one, erm but none of these traditional erm avenues exist now no. and more and more and more people are looking for experience, they're looking for vocations, they're looking for er the sort of attributes which, you know, aren't actually overflowing when you're unemployed in wolverhampton that's right. having failed out on two poly courses. so erm we as, we as i say are very concerned about er that can't have done jan any good, that's no no, that's right. she really has this er attitude which i cannot understand because erm a a as i think it was al reeve said, you know, erm some people can't bear children, we can't, but we like them but if you have actually borne children, you are in other words a mother, you've gotta have a attitude, not only to children in general but to your children in particular, which is very very difficult for er a male to understand and a non-father, it's gonna be very very difficult cos i personally don't have any children at all and therefore it is very very difficult for me to even comprehend but given that i can erm i can sympathize with something i do not comprehend it must be monumentally difficult for her yeah. it really must . yes, oh yes,th th that's right, there's no doubt about it. and erm poor jan is saying what have i done, should i have done, could i have done yeah. and, you know, once you start into, into that er scenario yo yo yo you, you, you can't very very little erm opportunity for anything because all you can do is, is to say what do we do now, never mind what we could, should or might have done then, what do we do now because the future is that way and the past is yeah. we can be influenced by history, we can, we learn from history, we can do all sorts of things about history but what er er as far as er christopher's concerned, what do we do now because that i just don't know! i just no. don't know! no that's right. and erm the really distressing thing is i think christopher is saying what to do now i think he is saying oh you know yeah. i, i've been yeah depending on, sponging off er whatever for however long and now he is going, is, is retiring on health grounds, you know, he really isn't going to be er able to bankroll me you mean he, he's now talking about you? yeah, yeah. well i mean, yeah, he er thinking, yeah. he's not, he's not, he's not a, he's not stupid, christopher, he, he's certainly not stupid, and er he must have seen, i mean i assume he keeps his bank statements, i mean i'm afraid we have one or two bank statements which show thousands of pounds that he's received from us over the last year erm and, you know, he can't blind because they've all gone through his bank account, you know, he must yeah, quite be thinking good grief, you know, i haven't had a a, a, a successful, happy year or so no. and it has, it has represented volumes of money which the state can't or won't or doesn't carry on with. so i think he's sitting there in wolverhampton about this time wondering what on earth he is i'm sure he must be looking forward to and that is a very very painful situation to be in isn't it? mm. i, i just don't know what he's, he's, he's, he's, he's seeing his future as being and erm maybe cos we haven't got , maybe erm it's because of the generation gap, maybe it's because of communication problems either between me and him or the young and old or whatever but, you know, he just doesn't seem to have anything to volunteer er other than ah well i'll try and get a job or ah well i'll try and get some more qualifications or whatever. so, yeah, that's sort of yeah, yeah anoth another bit in the yeah. where, whereabouts is lyndsey in her training now? oh she's erm tt she is the brighter spark on the horizon i suppose, you know? it makes me cough a bit because when i came on the scene he was the one academically everything and she was the one who was academically rather disadvantaged but she, she was, you know,no not having the greatest of, of, of success but erm it was said that she wouldn't be able to be a student nurse because she wasn't bright enough but you know she clocked up the o levels and a levels like guide badges and she went off on this pre-nursing course in south notts you know and she was in and out of the queens on a course and people and, you know,and she said i don't know all the answers but i've a rough idea about some of the questions, i want to be a nurse and off she went to, to, to walsall and i'm not saying she's a brilliant student nurse but erm absolutely clear that she's better than some of the others. and er, you know, that's negative if you will but it's fact yeah. and she's still enjoying it which is great yeah, so, so what year is she, er third year? yeah. mm. takes her finals this, this summer. and erm not only er do i think that er she'll probably be reasonably good with, with finals i'm absolutely sure that her course reports from, you know, all the places where she's been will be better than most of the other candidates, you know, because she brings home these,the these reports, you know, and she says it looks alright, you know,beginning of the course nurse is lacking in this or has not got that or is not, you know, you think mm pretty the end of the course nurse got the hang of, is very good, has done this, has done that, has supported this and you think mm pretty, well that's lovely you know but she didn't have the experience during the whatever, she had been given the experience and the end of it brilliant mm. a or whatever it is, you know? mm. and er i, i would therefore think that i it's, it's unlikely that she'll crash out on her exams. but if she did i think she will pass out on her record because perhaps, even more delightful than someone who, you know, sitting down to an exam and, and doing reasonably well on it. so i, i, i think that er one of the, the comforting things which er i c i can see is that she has grown in self confidence, not cockiness, self confidence. she has learnt, she has absorbed inwardly digested a quantity, a consid considerable quantity of it, i think that she will be a reasonably useful nurse to have around. mm. that's lovely yeah, yeah you know, they, they, they can be a bit hard, they can be a bit bitter, they can drink a bit too much, they can be a bit promiscuous, they can be all sorts of rather iffy things but i don't think lyndsey will. i, i, i, i've got, i think all the evidence is building towards her being mm. a good little nurse. yeah. what on earth she does then i dunno. erm mm i can't remember, alan and josie's daughter down the road, erm she passed out as a nurse from queens a while ago and you know what students are in general, nurses in particular , there was, you would expect, one hell of a party when the exam results were public what came out of the the party was when she got a job as a nurse. and that is absolutely mind blowing to me yeah. because i can remember, and it's not that long ago for goodness sake, that if you qualified as a nurse, and will probably tell even the same story to an extent, there was no problem about a job, you were a certified nurse, bang. that's right. well er i mean that's not going back too far either. well it ain't now mm. and er er er er the situation is that you can, in, in some of these nursing schools where they have taught you and it is their letterhead that's on your pass-out, they still aren't in a position to say oh well there's a job of course because you don't need to have passed out top, you know, to be guaranteed a job, there ain't no jobs guaranteed for no one. and er i just don't know what to do. california and saudi arabia are two of the, you know, destinations that come to mind but erm i don't know about that either, you know, if she doesn't what month does she take the exam? oh i er er i think it's erm july or er june, july or august, it's, it's, it's it's yeah. the summer. i think she maybe takes the exams in june and gets the results in july and er then we're fifty in august and then we go off to north america in september i think, you know, er i think, i, i can't quite remember the details but erm you've got a holiday booked? yes, yes good. well we've erm we've erm we've been rather tempted by the west coast er i personally want to see the grand canyon and erm i'd like to see san francisco so the package which is being offered to the boots association with whom we've been away several times and we lo we like it as, as a, as a background because you've got a rough idea, you know, the people you're going with yes. there are, there are very very few who are chasing women or men and there are very very few who are er requiring to be prised out of the bar erm at two o'clock in the morning. there are very very few who are er interested in finding a gambling haunt or a, you know, television or film theatre or whatever, you know, er er by and large there are a lot of people who chat to a waitress if they're a bloke or, or chat to the, the whatever it is if they're girls but er in, in a, in a friendly way, who will have a drink but will not be paralytically drunk, who may watch television or a, you know, film or theatre or something if it's appropriate but won't get twitched if it isn't, you know, and and by and large erm all the people we've, we've, we've, we've come across i came across before have been very very good company and it is, it is delightful to have the have you, cos have you been on a si on a signpost? yes a signpost holiday, yeah yeah. mm. well er i think that getting away the oh you live in nottingham, oh fancy that you know, you, you know where you're starting, you know, everyone either works for boots or used to work for boots and, you know, you've got a rough idea, you, you, you don't need to go into the oh fancy that you know, all that's arranged so erm i think i i it's,i i i it's the middle of september when we either go to los angeles, i think we go to los angeles, and fool around hollywood and san diego and places and down to to see a and then away off to erm las vegas and flagstaff you know about this meteor crater in flagstaff, that apparently is why you go to flagstaff tt a meteor came, the meteor crater is there tt and then the grand canyon and go through national park which san francisco and erm spend erm two or three days there and then come back again. tt so erm we are thinking it will be, like everybody else, it's not a good idea to put too much off too far into the future oh no no, you want to go. i, i think, well i think so. and so er friends of ours, he's got muscular dystrophy and he's sort of in the same sort of and so we we'll have a decrepit contingent,he and i will sort of and the two girls who are relatively young and healthy will go charging around and taking photographs and doing the tourist thing. yeah. yes. sort of on the, on the horizon for the end of the year and er i, i er don't know how we're going to do but erm i think the answer probably is to take a chunk at a time on the basis that erm one isn't going to be able to charge around as violently, actively as some people will. yeah, yes er erm that's oh you must because then you have the memories. exactly. exactly. not only does no one want to take those away, no one can take them away that's right. that's er that's right, you know, and erm what i'm saying to myself is okay, you know, er maybe it will be tiring, i'm sure it will maybe it will be erm expensive, like take a taxi because can't walk, you know, erm erm okay that's, that's, that's the way it is and er yeah. we'll i think, be okay and, provided we don't excessively energetic and too stupid, get too hot in the bath or that's not a very good thing to do, or crash out with er flu or something i dare say anyone can crash out, i mean you, you, you could be a president of the united states exactly and be in, in japan and you can crash out but er yeah. we'll see how it er what are your,wh what are you pla er er your plans? are you, are you going on a, a ship again or ? no i, i haven't got any plans at the moment, you know i've been sort of er i usually go around this time you know, er it it's certainly looking yeah i've still got swollen fingers which i am er er i've needed as much physio on these as on, on the finger that was done. why was that? they just swoll sw swelled up and erm i don't know why but i'm told it's not unusual. mm. because of the, the tinkering around it must do a bit of and erm but as i say i, i, i have, i still haven't got full use of those. are they, are they coming? yes i yes they are er but i seem to have reached a, a stage where they're not progressing as much as i would like you know? they're, they're, oh they're vastly improved to, to, i mean when i first had the er plaster off, which was for ten days it was, i could not believe it that these fingers were not going but i'm told that that's quite usual. well i it's a very complicated bit of gear and yeah. it's been tinkered around with i mean i don't yes but er i think i it's a combination of things, it's the fact that you've got your erm hand in plaster so your fingers are not moving and you lose muscle tone so quickly. mm. particularly with something which is otherwise in yeah. almost continuous use ah right. perhaps not to a very violent er extent but it's, it's, it's moving. yeah that's right, that's right. so er to get to your question erm i've sort of not been doing anything erm i was hoping that i would be sort of fully fit round about now and then if i saw something on teletext er that was good i'd just buzz off for a week or so. cos i i got one off teletext erm er it must have been nineteen ninety now for tenerife four star hotel, seven days, east midlands airport for one hundred and fifteen pounds half board er er the following day which was fantastic. i mean everything was good, the flight, the hotel, the weather. er and, and these are erm to fill up the, the exercise, the yes they're er er short term they're a filling up, the plane, yeah. filling up the plane and the hotel, spaces that the, this particular company had, yeah. you don't see many like that, i'm not expecting that again. well. especially east midlands airport, it's very seldom you see an east midlands airport bargain. but erm no i shall er is, is, is that national nationally advertised? yes, yes so so most of them are london gatwick or manchester. most of them er er that are advertised are from london gatwick. so as it were you, you, you turn up holidays and you, you, you, you, you scroll through until you yeah. well they, they, they scroll through themselves, i mean you have no control er they are on three five two is one of the n the numbers and er there, there's probably be about four to six pages which, you know, go er er er you have to wait, i mean they just go through i don't know about twenty seconds perhaps each oh so page there, there is time to erm oh and you can hold i i if there's one comes up you can hold it. oh i see yes, yes. mm. yeah. a a and yes that is, that is quite erm that is quite erm you'd be interested in teletext, you must have a teletext set next time you have a set. well yeah i suspect we will but erm i, i don't mean just for holidays, i, i i i it seems that an enormous number of people who have got it erm do find it er useful. whether it is er particularly important to an individual depends on the individual again mm mm and er i suspect most people would be only keeping an eye on the foreign exchange page, you know, when they were thinking about buying yeah, yeah, yeah but i mean there's the weather forecast including the local weather forecast erm that you can switch on any time and er news of course erm oh er er lots and lots. it's, it's amazing how much there is do you get a teletext directory? you well you know it's gonna be page three five two but how do you know it's page three five two, do you just di did, yeah, did ori ah ah yes but er do you go through, through three five one before you got there ? yeah they, they erm when you switch the teletext on it comes on to a hundred, that's the thing, and, and, and on that a hundred they'll give you er news one o two or whatever it is, you know, and so on. but also one nine nine is the index of the whole lot. and, and you, you, you, do you select ceefax or, or oracle? or yeah, yeah you does it no er yes,wha what you do er okay one is b b c one so if you put text on that, then obviously ceefax will come up. yes. now you've got to go back to t v to get change to to three i t v and then you text for your oracle. oh i see. cos it's,i i it's, it's, it's, it's, it's very very clever isn't it? it is very clever. it's, it's is it two lines the picture that have got the teletext data on them? how do you mean? where is it? where's the information? it must be transmitted ah yes. and it must be transmitted on yeah b b c one and i t v it's er on b b c one and b b c two er the same? i think they are the same but three and four are different. er b b c two i think b er three and four are different. channels four three and four? is different to oracle oracle er is well is different to er er channel three. i think they're probably both oracle. oh so it's just yeah but in other words what i'm saying is that there are diff it's three page hundreds yeah that you've got to look at. yes, yes, yes yes. erm so your but but on, no, on your er, no, on your oracle er channel three, one nine nine what will be shown up on your index will be channel three and channel four aha so, and, and you will see that's, that er i don't know whether some are all the same, but erm there are different, yeah, you know, erm in other words what i'm saying is they're not on both channels. so they're, i don't know whether it's,i it's terribly reactionary to say that we really want one teletext cos your holidays, might they be coming up on ceefax no, no,i it's pur it's all oracle oracle, yeah, cos it's an advertisement, i mean the people who are er er it is er being paid for by the people who advertise it. yeah. yeah i, i think you'll find that erm when the colour er when b b c two came along and all the aerials went to u h f, we went from a four o five line that's right to a six two five something. line and i think you'll find that now there are in fact six two three lines of television information, and there are two lines which are dedicated to carrying teletext data oh and i think that's where the , there's no sound is there? no, you get the sound of the erm the programme. oh really? oh yes, if you, you, no you get the sound, if i erm s say i've got oracle erm channel three on and i switch to text, i will still get the sound of the television programme ah i see. which will be confusing. well you can mute it if you want you see. yes of course, yes of course and you can mix it. you, you can have your erm if you were watching a programme and er, i've done this, erm if you're watching a programme and you want to see what the weather forecast is er you can have that superimposed on your programme. and, and the other way what in a, in a no, no over the top. over the top? over the top. oh i see. and the other thing erm which er er is good, supposing you're watching er a programme and there's a football match on and you're interested in the, the football er but you don't really want to keep, you know, switching to find out what the score is, er i'm talking about teletext as opposed to a programme, you press the update and it w er and if something's happened, you know, they've changed and there's been a score, it'll come up er er while you're watching the programme, er it'll let you know that erm there's been something happening. er it's, it's amazing. i don't know what that is. it's not you is it? it isn't, no. is it, it's not your er central heating is it? ah might be. it might be. yes that, that sounds like it. yeah, yeah. yes the erm these things,an and can you er can you record teletext? no, i tried that the other day. no. yo fr er you're talking about video? yeah. yeah. and if you're playing a tape back which was recorded off air what happens if you push the text button? don't know. because the data, you see, the two lines, i would have thought would have been recorded without you meaning it to be recorded ah well i can let me er say this, er you, you know how some programmes er you can have erm oh you may not know excuse me erm there are certain programmes which you can er put in eight eight eight and you get captions ah ye yes,i if that's available. if it's available. yes, yes. erm now if you record that programme and then, on video, and then play it back you can't put in eight eight eight and get it. oh. mm i it, i, i, i, i d i dunno as i say i i it, it, it seems to me to be an incredibly clever you would enjoy it. arrangement. yeah, yeah, yeah but erm the television of course i is infernally clever, i mean th there's er no doubt that the microchips that erm takes away the erm the teletext information, stores it and then spits up whatever you ask for is er two or three p now i suppose and therefore the, the television manufacturer charges hundred pounds to put it in. mm. it's er it's you're, you're, you're, you're quite erm hooked on it? ah well yes i wouldn't like to be without it now. definitely not. and is, is there much difference between er ceefax and oracle? well they look more or less the same do they? yeah i mean the news is very similar of course erm presumably that's indicated or is it? dunno because i think it isn't actually come to think of it b b c will do their own and i t v will do their own oh yeah oh it's definitely their own, yes. yeah. yeah. so i'm a bit of a newshound so i look at both of course, see what's what. i'm er i'm not saying i, the headlines you see, so i will select the headline i'm interested in. and would and then it'll come up, you know, i'll put in w er one o two is the headlines for ceefax for instance and then the stories will be from one o three to about one one five or something like that you see. and er th so er if i'm interested in er george bush's illness, you know, and that's one o four i'll put in one o four and then that will come up on the screen. so presumably wh wh what bank are you with? what i'm with barclays. oh i suspect they're you bank with totally ignorable. if you're with er national westminster erm y y y y you, you, you know about these, these, these cash tills that you put a card in and yeah. ask it questions, it's obviously on the telephone because you can ask what the balance is and it will tell you, and it can't possibly know that and cleethorpes, when you put the card in the cleethorpes thing, that, you know, your bank balance at nottingham is so it's obviously on the telephone erm and it's on the telephone to a central computer which holds quite a lot of information, it accesses quite. it very very quickly that's right, yeah. so why shouldn't you telephone that computer? and the answer is, no reason at all. and if you're with national westminster, you telephone a, a n a number in manchester or birmingham or two or three other places i guess but as far as we're concerned er the birmingham manchester one's the cheapest you, you ring them up and you give them a your identification number and it immediately tells you what your balance is. immediately. what do you want to do? well of course there's a whole range of things you can order, you know, chequebooks and bank statements, you can do all s all sorts of things yeah, yeah, yeah. you can do with the till in the wall yeah. but you can also say i want a transaction too and the machine then comes back to you with one of these sepulchral voices, you know, which is tone yes generated or whatever, who do you wish to pay to, and we have four erm electricity board, the gas board, the er er er credit card and the, can't remember what the fourth one is, you simply say i wanna pay number four how much do you wish to pay to the royal bank of scotland and you say how much you wish to pay in, er in pence and it immediately says you wish to pay blah blah blah it will be done. couple of days later a little note comes in the post saying that you've just paid the national west national bank bank of scotland twenty three pounds thirty and it's absolutely brilliant! barclays haven't got one yet? well er er i think not because i would have heard, i mean obviously they would've er well er nat west have been very quiet about action line erm because they haven't quite got the the, the, all the firmware sorted out yet but it's absolutely fantastic, you know mm it's just, just erm but i i i er er have you got a, a tone telephone or a pulse telephone? it's probably a switch i've got several well erm probably on the back you can select whether it er sends a number by pulse, and you can tell actually cos it's very you d you'll dial well the old dial was pulse was the twiddle dial? yeah. oh yes yeah, yeah. but some push button telephones send one as one pulse and two as two pulses yes. whereas others send wuls er one as a beep and two as a ooh ah in other words the pitch of the yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. i think mine are erm the pulse type, mm. well usually erm modern telephones have got a switch on the back and you can switch them to pulse or tone oh? i don't think mine have. one of those four switches across the top is the pulse tone. oh yeah i can see that. yeah. but erm you bleep with one, one of ours is, is, is erm on tones now and you can tell the diff you, you, you can tell is that the big match then? sunday? mm. no we're doing erm little matches. ah. yes, yeah. i just wondered because er trevor was there i just wondered if he was i don't know. i don't know. yeah. he hasn't phoned yet has he? no i was just, i was just thinking about the same. oh my word, eddy right, off you go then. yeah where are the phones? you send him off now, come on he won't, won't shout, he won't shout. come here hello, hello, hello. shh! come here. right. she says well i am wagging my tail as well. come here. you're not at crufts then? oh is it crufts? mm. oh luce! you've missed your vocation luce, there! how are you anyway? alright thank you how are you? oh alright, alright, alright! i'm alright, reasonably. oh you're alright in this part, it's this part is it, that part? let's have a look ooh! i'm still not er my fingers are still not going yes! down, my good ones. and it's not quite straight yet is it? will it straighten? oh well i i'm not expecting it to be a, a miracle. come here can you do that with it then ? i you've still got your mike on. i know. i'm, i'm now erm having you, having you told me this having you said that, you just look at that erm have you been preaching? well why do you have it on? no i have it on so that you, i can hear you talk. no. hope not . want me glasses on to read that. yeah. is it switched on at the moment? mm. yeah. it's gonna be switched, it's gonna be switched on all the time i'm with you. oh no! it is, it is er read, read it. i'm not talking. come and sit down come and sit down. if you don't mind that is, i mean whoops! luce! who's that? that's a friend friend. it's just a friend can i touch you? will you allow me to touch you? aye that's alright then isn't it eh? see, quite alright. well you were wagging your tail when you were barking weren't you? have you, have you er have you escaped the flu and all that? well i've had the sniffles at the moment but we've had a lot of people at work with yeah i know there's so much about isn't there? colds, flu, throat infections having read that, can you play it back? yes. we well ye yes i can but er obviously er i, i, i shan't be doing because erm i've got too many er hopefully too ma d it's much better, it would have been much better if i was living in a home, you see where, where we can holiday somewhere where we can just have it on all the time. but erm so no, no. a actually i visited somebody the other day and you just forget you just forget. no no no i mean i i it is completely anonymous anyway, yes. i mean no er no one will know. i just wondered if you could erm play it back and well i w w yes i mean obviously i need to so erm just to get it right. right. o or to cut out, i mean if, if you said to me something that was de de confidential or, or anything like that, then, yes, er i mean that's it. you, you just like if i started to swear at you. well i'd leave that in of course have a seat then somewhere or other. thank you. we, we actually thought heidi would be back by now, she went to a, a slumber party. oh and they're slumbering rather a lot are they? well it started at half past six last night . oh. mm. and she did have instructions for home by half past twelve but er mm she the erm er on the television last night there was a programme about the fifties that actually i didn't see it but i taped it and i have seen it this morning er on television? mm. it was called erm tt it was about half past ten i think last night, somewhere oh i was reading then. er the trouble about the trouble with the fifties and er actually it was a very good programme er for reminiscing about the fifties. michael aspel was the one in er charge of it but you know a lot of the old people er and the old erm tt muffin the mule and the fl oh flowerpot enjoyed watching, yeah the flowerpot men and er the skiffle groups and everything, it's quite good, you know, really nice unless there's anything really special i don't tend to watch it late, i, i prefer to read. well i er well i don't, i, but i put it on video er so i er had a look at it this morning. it's a nasty dreary morning isn't it? it is it is. erm it was a nice okay, you can come then? right, come on then. let them know that you're my friend. there you are you see. i won't undermine your ego but it's perhaps the chair that she wants rather than you ah ha don't do that . is this your chair? yeah. well it's not hers no but you but like it do you? if vicki's out at all she likes to erm sit in that chair. have you been since we've had these new ones? we, we were trying to think when it was w that you came. but it took her such a long while before she would sit in one of these. no i don't know. er i, i you know we had velvet something so yeah something erm very, a very long settee. yeah. i, i don't remember really to be honest but i, i erm erm malcolm said something once which so i wasn't surprised, you know, can't remember exactly what. but we had two, two chairs, one there and one there and that one was the one she always used to sit in yeah. if vicki was out or er at the side of vicki when vick when we had these she was ages before she'd go and sit in a chair on her own really? she'd sit on vicki's knee but she wouldn't sit yeah. in the on the chair. looks like slumber come back. hello hello my love. in time for dinner who's brought you home then? charlotte's mummy, she's brought us all home. oh that was very nice of her but it was a bit of a pack in the car well i've brought, brought my slippers and er with all hello hello, with all the erm hilarity oh that's alright, your shoes are clean, you don't have to mine are no, no, no but er we went to the park oh right, have you heard this? got, got to bed at three did you say? no we were in bed but we, we, we go into a right about eight o'clock and we watched a video yes, and what was the video? erm i won't tell you . yes, come along! i'm coming back to that, and then we watched, no then the pizza man came and we had all our pizzas and cake, then we were just talking till three a m. then we decided to go to sleep then watched so you were all in one room? we watched a video and then ? the see-saw, what were the boys like? there weren't any, they didn't come. they weren't coming in the end. mummy yeah? no drugs, no three lettered words and no oh yeah there was alcohol . no there was some non-alcoholic wine. erm non-alcoholic wine? was it was it worth going then with the boys not being there? yeah, you don't need boys to have a good time. where's the nail file in here? at the moment. yeah well see three three out of the six all fancied the same person not your andrew? no stuart. what was the video? we watched arachnophobia this morning, the spiders,oh it was i didn't think, it wasn't that scary apart from two places well what age limit? that's a p g. oh and what was the other one that you watched? ah! well she won't tell me about the other one. it was an english chippendales and gorgeous ! they were british. don't worry they, they didn't get anything we were a bit disappointed what were they called? oh i've i've hea yeah i've heard of those they're supposed to be very very good. they're brilliant they're really dancers yes now where have i heard about those? and their dance routine that's it they're a da and they smile. gorgeous. yeah oh is it? the chippendales don't smile. the chippendales don't smile. oh that that did you watch that's life last night? and have the chippendales gone down in your estimation then? no they're still gorgeous. no they they were er there was a group on there no somewhere was doing a rating on erm yeah the chippendales and then two or three english groups there's a there's one from, from nottingham there's a group from nottingham. and er it said that so many of them didn't smile but this this, and they had dance routines and it's really good. whatever well the dance routine and they smiled and looked as though they were enjoying it. you know how they strip, they have they undo the top half but then they s they erm have velcro down the seams so they pull the rest off, and then they slip the t-shirt sort of well what have they got underneath? then they go down to boxer shorts and then they come off and what's under the boxer shorts? not a lot . well you should've been w yo yo you m you missed a lot last night, you should have been watching erm tt that's life, think it was that's life, where they had they had them on oh well morse was on at the same time. oh that's right, that's why they've done it isn't it? there we are dear. oh thank you very much! yes to compete with erm yeah. er you're a morse fan are you? yeah. well i like these. ooh, oh the black magic! oh they've it off the sunday because it was competing with something on the sunday, what's the other side sunday? oh buds poirot no buds of may, the darling buds of may. ah. they thought people would prefer are they, them doodahs ready? yes i should think so. no you needn't bother. they look as though they need clean dishes. you see wh when she went her father said me? to her that if she watched any dishes eighteen. eighteen videos she'd be grounded. don't tell him about it, i'll get killed. well was that an eighteen? well it's not exactly gonna be a u is it ? with them all stripping. no i wouldn't have thought it i wouldn't have thought it would have been i know but i wouldn't have thought, i mean it i don't know if it was no, no chippendales is an eighteen. chippendales no a lot of, yeah mm. s e x and so you're alright and v i o and and v i a? violence. you should see tango and cash, that's not violent no. it is cute kurt kurt russell is gorgeous . i've gotta get next of kin out, i've gotta get out for you to see kurt russell. i don't wanna see kurt russell. i broke my nail i was biting it last night. why, did you forget your ribbon? no i was biting this one. so it's that one that needs filing? they both need filing. and erm these, they had these different routines, they had one when they were swimming and this one was in the shower, couldn't actually see what he was doing, and they had well suppose he was having a shower was he? then there's one jenny came for you i know. and i said oh she, she said that you'd phoned and you wouldn't be able to come and collect her. no sam phoned oh. to say that we couldn't go all er go er tt all go to her house and i was just about to ask sam if jenny knew and she put the phone down and she hadn't told jenny. hmm. right, everybody in the erm dining room then. right and they had this bit they're in these white sailor's uniform and they're stripping the gloves off which was really uninteresting but they all looked really, you know, smart and they were saluting. gorgeous. one was called he's like erm he's coloured well think, if you concentrated on that a bit more instead of just doing it any where in the air you might get on a bit quicker. might. on the other hand and then what other one, there's that bad boys, they're in jail and the erm jail attendant man was like stripping, they had what have you done? well i'm just putting them on clean dishes because i think these dishes what? so you've got your hot doodah all over the top. can't have them in mucky dishes. lucy darling you missed me . no she hasn't missed you. like a dose of salts. oh it was a right laugh we we were all in a sleeping bag and there's three of us lying that way then one lying here one on the sofa and one lying there it was a bit mad! er just a bit. there? just there please. yep. what are you having heidi? er pass. i'll file my nails. i'll have a drink though sherry mum can i have a sherry please ? i've been completely teetotal this weekend, thank you. charlotte was drinking sherry, don't suppose, shouldn't tell you that but she only had one little drop and i was you were driving were you? yeah. which is the sweet, pale cream? her father's daughter. not medium dry. medium dry, pale pale . any baileys in there you're, you're not having baileys i've had a christmas without baileys. that's because i didn't buy any . exactly! i'll get you for that. we had piz we had, me and sarah shared a mexican one and it was hot. well i wasn't around at christmas was i? and they put these chilies in my garlic bread, the peppers rather, but i ate all my peppers,and charlotte couldn't eat theirs. are you coming vicki? yes yes yes. rocking rolling i'm a bit hyper at the moment. need to listen to the charts. you're a bit what? hyperactive. i was the odd at the moment? i was the odd one out you see because everybody else had curly hair. i thought wait till tuesday. wait till tuesday! am i, am i definitely doing it? well the appointment's made. okay. would you like to say grace fred for us please? mm. what? for friend food and fellowship we give you thanks oh lord amen . amen . how comes heidi's having a sherry and nobody else is? oh i think she asked you vicki. i asked you. would you like a sherry mother ah well we've got sherry in we've got sherry in the grapefruit. would anybody else like a drink? no no no no no. so what is this grapefruit? it's it's booked for monday at four o'clock if you want it. i want it. what time are you if you don't want it i will have to cancel it tomorrow. yes i do want it. after school. joan while i remember in my car i've got some things that i want your professional advice about. sorry it's a cushion actually which is coming adrift and i d i don't know whether it's excuse me as long as it's not to make a rabbit's costume. oh no no no are you gonna make that for chris? no i'm not . aren't you gonna make it? no. have i dreamt this or has natasha moved from where she was originally? she's moved. oh. i couldn't, i couldn't erm well as usual we couldn't remember the last time you came, i was trying to think the last time i can't remember either. she moved at the end of need is to keep a diary and just put dates when who comes november where for what. over to langley mill. oh no she definitely hadn't moved then er when i was last here i mean. well it was december wasn't it? it was the last saturday i should think it twenty ninth of november. oh i thought it was the beginning of december. twenty ninth of november. it was from the first of december for the address although they were actually mm. my birthday in three days' time. gonna be dead boring. is that fifteen? dead boring. er i think i'll open my presents when for the chinese. what presents? you have yours all the year round so is dave coming now? i've been really good this year, i haven't had any anything really except my christmas present i had early from mummy and daddy and from nana. had a jumper. i know charlotte likes this. mm likes it as well. i like it. mm. just had a bath. you always have a bath when you so did you tell charlotte where she could er purchase one? yeah she said that she liked , she liked those big polo necked ones. you know? oh that i thought were very yeah mm. and she, she got a black and white one. from there? i don't know, i don't think it's from there but it was similar to, similar jenny, and sam had a like ribbed one with a big neck which was fawn coloured and jenny had like an arran. oh so it's a good job you got that one. is that the one from spain? mm. trading. good place to go you see heidi. good job you had yours on then. isn't it? mhm. oh see at the moment fred it's not what the clothes look like, it's it's the name. it's where they come from. no it's not. we had a good chat last night. you've got to have the right it's like these trainers isn't it? mm yeah. inside inside well back to front? paying for the name. does it look like it? well yes it does now otherwise i wouldn't have how long have you been on the name game, a year? the name game? where it had to be the right name. oh at least a year. but some start at about three. five oh benetton benetton? it's gotta be benetton stuff. some start at yeah three, five and you know i've spoken to mums oh i bought this coat and she wouldn't wear it. it's ridiculous. mm. they'll only have trainers if they're this make and i mean, alright i can appreciate when you get into your teens and whatever, but at that age natasha goes round the er charity well tasha's married. before she was married and when she was at school she was quite happy to go and find something well let her be if she's happy. i'm happy that's a minor detail isn't it? well finish doing your nails at the table then. no! tell her not to do her nails at the table. i said finish doing them. at the table. no you said finish doing your nails at the table. finish at the table doing your nails. oh right. i will rephrase that,you knew jolly well what i meant . oh we watched in bed with madonna as well mum how many were there? five and then charlotte whose house it was we were invading. but well it was cosy. just move this to here if i put that on a mat because it's cold well how many,we've got? beg pardon? have we just got that and the that? have we just got? that and the so it's the fourth year now is it? mm. hard work don't do anything. no you do actually. still got all the homework to do, well my german, my cooking nothing else. the only good thing i like about the fourth year, you're doing the subjects you want to do but apart from that so what have you dropped? french erm french, history, r e those have you th those are what you've dropped you say? yeah. yeah. physics and then all the creative art except cooking. so but i like what i'm taking i think it's quite a good choice. what, what was that that you said you liked? my favourite thing i like, my favourite subject's chemistry. think that is brilliant. hard but my tea that's what my son teaches you know? mm. my teacher thinks i should get an a or a b in it. erm hope so because if i don't go in the police force i wouldn't mind being a would you like to do that one heidi? okay then. please. we watched in bed with madonna as well. but we didn't watch it we just saw a couple of bits. who do i do first? i should do fred first. right. well because i bought that one. thank you. this the same as the other one we had? similar, it's got, it has got in it and and it's all gonna fall to pieces. well once you've got the first, give me the first one which didn't come out and then it's easy. i'm quite right there thank you very much. it's also got some vegetables in it. i'll leave yours cos so you don't knock it over. where's the ? bread is just a coming. how much do you want? are you hungry? yes. what did you eat last night, pizza? we had i had half a big are you hungry? pizza. but then we'd just eaten mars bars with everything else. you'd just eaten we had pizza and garlic bread good old junk food. then we had, we had some crisps and some mars bars and that sort of thing. so how many of the lucy do you mind, you can get down and er did the parents go out? yeah they came back in about ten cos the pizza, we was eating our pizza you'd eaten your pizza by then? yeah the pizza came at nine. you didn't have the pizza hut from gordon road? no pizzarama, oh didn't know there was one there we were gonna get some other videos out but there weren't is there a pizza hut in then? yeah. yeah on the avenue, erm well down the what, one where you can go in or just for take away? both. oh. and the erm, there's one a bit further which is pizza pantry we pizza pantry but that isn't a home delivery. we prefer pizza pantry. thank you. pizza pantry it's take away, you go in and order it and take away, help yourself to salad and thank you. bread. no luce, down. and then pizza hut they deliver don't they? yeah. they come round on the little pizzarama, they've got cars. it was quite nice there's a pizza place on er housing estate. pizzarama. p it's called pizzarama. pizzarama. we had mexican what is it that comes round on pizza hut motor, mm thank you. is that enough for you ? oh plenty thank you. i was er sitting watching you doling it out and suddenly realized it was mine. mhm. mhm what's the matter? oh that arachnophobia ah what did you say that was, spiders? and it's been drained of blood, it's all wrinkly and they're killers, urgh. good job you saw it this morning and not last night then is it? mm. and er we got everybody got really scared at one point do you want some tomato dear? no thanks, cos we were talking about a certain subject and erm we go right now i've made a mess on your the these need wiping because i've got butter on my fingers. oh not to worry. i'll yes cos some of the butter is soft and some is hard. some hard. this is nice. did you have breakfast this morning? they just had mars bars and biscuits and bits and pieces and haven't you? good old cheers fred. good old teenage er cheers heidi. mhm. excuse me reaching over. cheers. nanny hasn't got her glasses on. oh so where do you originate from? what part of the country? nottingham. do you really? yes. i didn't know that. born in nottingham. mm. were you born up here mum? mhm. and then moved down there? mhm. and where w where were you living before you came here? northampton. there you go mother. oh that's why i thought yo yo malton erm mm small village, it was a small village when we went. you could quite easily walk in the middle of the road with prams and then erm you were safe. yeah. there were a lot of places like that. so you were brought up in nottingham were you? not really. born in nottingham oh, born in nottingham. but not really brought up. brought up no. we moved to erm malton when vicki was six months old. so it's ironic that we've come backwards. so were you born here moved to malton, moved back here and then moved to malton or you were here and they you moved to malton when she lived there? no i was in nottingham and moved to cambridge i know you lived cambridge but i mean did you, was m was malton that's where terence was born was the first time you went to malton when she was born? yes. and stayed there. and then you got hip and toddled off up there. i went to wellingborough that's it. went to yorkshire that's right, then went back to malton then came here. and then came here. and where did erm malcolm originate? born in bristol bred in birmingham. but spent a lot of time in birmingham. heidi was born in northampton, geoff was born in wiltshire. where would you say i was bred? here? mm. well you spent your first four years in malton. your formative years. and then they all went down the drain when you came to nottingham. ha! well you moved here. and tasha would like to move back to yorkshire. get your feet off me ! reason really because well she says she likes it up there. she hasn't spent so much time up there since she's been three. mm because. i like geordie accents. mm i hear kate 's engaged to a welshman. kate? do i know kate ? erm yes you probably do. is this somebody from church? yeah. you know elizabeth and graham ? i think her mum's elizabeth isn't it? had that erm trouble with her knee. all that trouble with her knee and now walks with a mind you she goes to ten thirty more than mm. i do erm she probably i'm sure i'll yes i'm sure i'll know her by sight. yes you would. and she's, what, the same age as lyndsey? would she probably be the same age as lyndsey? yeah. doing erm training for a physiotherapist isn't she? that's right. you do a good meal mum. mm? where do they live? well they used to live erm i haven't got anything for you mm st austells or in that area mm. then they moved down to the house opposite the green in front of the church which i think the now live in next to the , janet and peter , that house and then they moved up to a bungalow. oh i know them, yeah. she and she's yes she, she's hurt her her knee hasn't she? mm. mm. playing badminton. ah. now that's right. now start again and tell me kate their daughter got engaged i think christmas time oh. to some, a welshman yes i'm now completely with you. good. excuse me mum, please may i have some more? mhm. would you like to help yourself love? ooh thought you were talking to me she's talking to you. she's talking to you luce. how's the box going? which box? the new one. oh that one. i like it when you put the subtitles up. well don't go and mess it up. in baywatch you don't understand what they're saying when you read it. we had a new television yesterday fred, that's what she's talking about. what you did? mm. she gave tash and john her old one. not me. well you don't need it. mm. well they don't know whether it will be any good to them. they've got two. got a better telly than we have. i think john wanted it to sort of have a fiddle it was gonna cost me a hundred and eighty pounds to have it repaired so i thought i might as well suit yourself. pay the extra and have a new television set. yeah well i think er if er if you had, how long have you had it? eight? ten years? eight years at least. well yeah. see something else is going to go isn't it? and i think you made a good choice of boxes, it's a bit small but it isn't really. only it's only cos it hasn't got the extra the viewing area round the side, yeah, i know. isn't it's just cos you haven't got the extra round the, round the side, but it just looks small. you have the controls underneath. underneath which aren't really so easy to see but you didn't have any controls on yours anyway. down the side didn't you? i had them down the side. did you? mm but they were hidden in a box. mm. have you got erm a zapper? oh i had with the other, i wouldn't go back to no. having to get but we did persuade her to have teletext. good i'm very pleased. but she's got erm, you haven't got teletext have you, what have you got viewing. fastext? yeah that's even better isn't it? it might be when i get used to it . just press text and the number just press the yes just press the colour and hey presto! yep. so she'll be looking at three so so she'll be looking at three five two and then contacting you and saying look i'm now is that the holiday? i'm, i'm going off tomorrow to madeira. three five two. do you want some more bread heidi cos there's some more in the some more bread for you fred? cos there is some more. just that bit'll do me. i was gonna say there's some more you get erm do you want some more heidi? no thanks. did muriel persuade you? well she didn't persuade me but she said she thought it was a very good idea because it was on all the new sets and while i was buying a new set i might as well buy the latest new set. i er i think erm it's silly not to have it er when you're going in for a new set. mm. yeah. i really didn't erm you really didn't want it did you? no i, i just wondered what use it would be to me. it's as good as watching a video watching your holiday programmes and everything else. there's all sorts, weather forecast er news items ooh hmm i i didn't get it quite right last night cos i thought i'd hear the news and i i could, i got the news on what on teletext? yes, but there's somebody talking out of the film well you had your telly on didn't you? yes, yes well you've got to pu you've got your superimpose on. you've got to put your mute on. oh. you know? any time. i mean if you just want the teletext all you do is press your mute and then you'll just have your teletext without the sound. but, well you can also but y i know you can mix it can't you? yes i, i know that bit i didn't know you had to do something to stop the mm yes just programme coming through. yes well it's only just like you do if you've not got erm teletext and you just wanted to see the picture. oh well we'll have a go today on there. i just press the buttons and see what happens. i know you do. well you'd left something on hadn't you? i went in and there's heidi oh well i've just got all the script coming up on the screen and i've just got so and so for you and i hadn't even read the book either but i've fiddled with natasha's. i just fiddled with the controls till the thing that you you have to remember, which you tend not to at the beginning is that ceefax is b b c for instance, so on one and two now if you change channel if you're on teletext and you want to go onto oracle which is on three three. you've got to go back to t v to change. to get to three and then back on to teletext oh. you can't go direct. and that's er something that you tend to forget er initially, even, i mean i still sometimes still do. mm. i was reading my instructions though and it said before you start pressing knobs mm. please read the instructions. read it because you can do a lot of damage pressing the wrong things. mm. mm. and did it also say in big capital letters please do not y let your granddaughter fiddle around with it? no. oh. but on, on my other remote control if i wanted to alter the sound or the colour, that was on the erm remote control and it's just a little it's a good little picture. it's a good picture. very clear. but sometimes like in the proms, i had to keep lowering the sound mm. too loud. mm. well i want to be able to do that easily. you can you can you just press well you will be able to, there's no doubt about it. yes i'll have to erm you've got it on volume. sort it out. you don't nee you just keep it on volume did erm go boom and you've got little arrows to show you how did somebody come and set it up or did well john set it up for me. mm. well we'd just unpacked it and we're just looking at it and mummy said oh where's john? could do with him. he walked in. and about two minutes later he knocked on the door didn't he? mm. oh come on i'll do it for you, well you've gotta press so and so, here you are i'll do it. so know it all. tuned it in to the four channels and i said what about video how many channels you got? tt i said well you might as well tune in to that as well hmm how many cha cha channels have you got? i can have thirty thirty. two is it thirty or thirty two channels on it? thirty i think because it started at thirty when we pressed and went down mm looking at the channels, i think that was only thirty channels. what make have you got? mits mitsibushi? yeah. that's mine, i've got a video my mitsibushi is. what, video? mm. ah now you could do with fred's mitsibushi video couldn't you? yes because on the remote control it's for a video as well you see mm. but it doesn't work my video. you know if you have the telly on number eight so you were on the video channel? mm? do you use your video remote control? mm. that's okay then, i won't muck it up. yes you can. but you can't use the video controls on the television panel not the video, you mustn't use the video bit on the television television on my video. no but you're on the video channel. no you must use the video remote control that goes with the video. that's what i mean. yeah, yeah. if you're on the video channel and you want to change the channel when nana's got her mitsibushi video then you can use it all on one. then you use your video remote control, oh you've got to have the two yeah. you must have the two separate ones. i don't want you messing it up. yes, yes yes, yes! i know, i know, i know. can't afford another one. no then i'll have that one. do you know what she said fred what? what did i say? when i was wondering about having teletext or not? mm. have a teletext then when you die you can leave it to me and i then i'll get one with nicam. that's lovely. i didn't say when. you mean i'll have to wait a very long time. and i'd like a nicam digital stereo. that's what we're gonna have on our new telly. yeah but but er we can't receive stereo here yet can we? if the programme's stereo i think and you've got a stereo telly. oh i, i thought we weren't on it yet. well by the time we get round to getting a new telly . we're not g gonna get one within the next few years. or oh i'll take that and that now i've noticed er y y what time did you get to bed last night? three o'clock did you say? well oh no you were u er you went earlier but got to sleep about then. we were talking till about three and then there was three of us who stayed awake longer,then som the alarm went off at six thirty cos someone had a newspaper round. oh dear . and then i was dozing a bit and while we were watching like arachnophobia we were we were still in bed but about four hours sleep just about. it was worth it, good fun. taking it or not? go on then. tt oranges, kiwi, pineapple, apple, apple and pears and they've got and what's this then? the toffee it's toffees in a melted toffee. i want a spear. in a crunchy new yes we're getting that's alright then. erm it's gone this time. which drawer are they in vicki? bottom. right hand side. on the right hand side. cocktail sticks. danke bitte. thank you. really want a teaspoon, these are dessert spoons. too big. oh i gave you a small spoon. it's fallen off my stick! has it set hard? it's hard there, nice and hard. harder than we've had? mm. well i'll get some teaspoons. it's not hard, it's just that it fell off my stick. which wasn't very helpful. it fell of your stick? yeah. oh de oh i need a tissue. the oranges don't fall off. here you are then, have a teaspoon with this. i want the teaspoon so i can eat it when i've finished my fruit. i said we're having a a health giving lunch today . healthy? toffee? i don't think so. did fay take a quilt? oh it has set hard. has it set today? yes you thinned it down though last time didn't you? i thinned it down this time. did you, what with? i've got a lump of toffee, yes! gorgeous. and i didn't put it in the fridge so it wouldn't erm i've got, look at that it's bubbling. hubble bubble well you can't erm swish your fruit round in it. it doesn't s mm you can. i had to give fay a piggyback up to the park. killed my back! which park? mm. are you having fun fred with this? it's the spears don't work mm they slide off the spears that's the problem. well use your spoon then. it's boring using a spoon. mm well you've done yours. me? tt nana's got a toffee coated grape. are they seedless type? no. well say we like to have fun at our meal times. oh i recorded those films didn't i? have, want some erm to help you on your way. mm i'll have to watch those. what will you have to watch? i recorded one, the one which was on two which was about a lawyer falling in love with the accused. erm or was that the one on number two. was that the one after morse? no, that was on b b c two but i ha only saw the beginning of that and then i turned over to watch the one mm luce what do you want? it sounded quite good. oh! we went to erm tt who did? we did. i was gonna say did we? where we went. i was going to say did nana go? theatre royal and it wasn't the theatre royal haymarket the other saturday didn't we? easier with a spoon. mhm. we saw the little prince. leicester haymarket? that's right. mm. which is a story i am not familiar with. well i've never it was sort of like their pantomime yeah. but i wouldn't have said it was very appropriate for it couldn't have been their pantomime young children. because we well i shouldn't have thought young children would have und understood it. mm. but it was quite good wasn't it? malcolm and heidi went to london bef the monday before christmas yeah! no blinking sam goes to me, cos we were, we were, we turned arachnophobia off because people needed the toilet and erm there was songs of praise or, you know, something like that and they were talking about all this terrorism, somebody said oh i'm glad you didn't go to london said but i did and she goes oh no you didn't did you?worried about me going to london that was nice. i know. because there weren't any tubes they had to walk along haymarket. wherever it was haymarket. and erm pass the theatre with phantom of the opera showing so malcolm just went in to see if there'd be any tickets for the afternoon performance on the off-chance and they were putting on an extra matinee performance so lo and behold those two went to see phantom of the opera. hey hey hey hey! oh good. mm. it was brilliant, so good. and then on the saturday tasha and john went to see it. mm. and it was and i who wanted to see it in the first place . excuse me! i didn't ever want to see phantom of the opera, no of course i haven't haven't yes you have. really been interested in it, no. who's starring in it now? he's good erm peter somebody. yeah. nobody i know. well i don't know but i mean not someone not a well known famous famous. but he, he is really good. i w i wanted to see aspects of love with michael caine in, i mean michael ball, but he's not in it any more. mm! there's a good erm oh you've got rehearsal this afternoon. i know. we saw a trailer for a film, it's mr was it? and anyway it's this bas er ba baseball player and he doesn't hit the ball you see, which ma doesn't make him famous so he finds this person and he makes him go back and he does hit the ball and becomes really famous and that special person's michael caine, it looked quite good. michael caine? you know michael caine? the mm one who did jekyll and all the jekyll and hyde and what else he did did you watch it? yeah. i didn't re i thought he actually made a person, i didn't realize he made himself into a person. it was himself that changed. i thought it was a bit stupid cos he was such a nice doctor and that. mm. who wrote that? er heidi's going to be aladdin in er wendy 's production. i've learnt my lines but i haven't really. that looks a bit long. you twiddle it like you do spaghetti . she's hoping to sing her song from aspects of love aren't you? well i don't know about that. well i can't really sing it. well you sing it well. that's a load of cock and bull. i can't sing it. you can't? and wh and where's this, school or church or? st pauls. st pauls' drama group. mhm. i want to go through to she doesn't really belong to the drama group now, she came out in september. don't i get something cos no one 's got anything nineteen eighty four i started. you've been there nine years then. you will be the guest star so you should get eight. is that right? you've been there quite a whi well yes you'd been there seven years when you gave up hadn't you? ninetee i started in nineteen eighty four did you? cos we did box of tricks eighty six, the year before that we did cinderella in nineteen eighty five and i started september october eighty four. mm cos you were in the first one weren't you? mhm. you were the little puss weren't you in cinderella? mhm. so eighty four, eighty five, eighty six, eighty seven, eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety, ninety one i would have been there eight, eight and a bit years. next time you make this vicki don't ask me if you should add any more liquid just add it . what? i'll save you a bit luce, i'll save you a bit. do you think i will come on last? i shouldn't starring part. but i'm thinking, i'm think i've got this terrible feeling i'd have to come on with the princess, if we've just got married oh well you will then. to come through. with angela? mm. want to come on on my own. well perhaps you can. princess and then, just shortly afterwards, aladdin. cos in tom sawyer we came on together didn't we? mm. which wasn't too bad. i'll save you a bit i thought she might have said something last year cos i was leaving. well perhaps she thought you might change your mind. perhaps she thought you wouldn't really leave. she was wrong then. well are you making a guest appearance then? yeah. cos she'd been wanting to do aladdin for a couple of years but it was on at the playhouse and then it was on at the theatre royal. so she did tom sawyer, out of huckleberry finn. so that's the best one we've ever done huckleberry finn, it was good wasn't it? and then last year we did peter pan and i said right i'm leaving but she's always wanted to do it. to do aladdin so when she thought she'd do it this year she wanted me for aladdin. come on then, jump for some silly reason come on then come on then come on. so we now have singing er rehearsals, you know er but i cannae not sing you can if you think about it. not in tune to that one. i was singing it well we'll just have to get the music and i was singing it in, not in my feet i was going i was me going to do all the words we'll see if we can get some music from the library, see if our library's got went down into town yes but you, you have to buy the whole album and they hadn't got that in, they'd just sold out. did you see the phantom music? i'd look at that. but it would be a bit hard. they hadn't any of er lloyd webber's music. where did you try? foxes. mm i was just wondering erm is there anywhere else? windblowers shermans oh i seem to have gone down the drain a bit. windblowers is right up road yes isn't it? the best thing to do is to ring first. i'll tell you where i had terrific service once, i can't remember what it was for now, it's it's a shop, it's called arcade records because originally it was in the arcade, but it's now just above the cannon cinema in between you know on chapel bar on the left hand side. and i wanted a particular tape, oh i know it was a tape i'd heard a coach driver using on the er on a coach trip that i was on so i got to know what it was erm and er i went round the usual shops no joy nothing. and no sort of interest in in trying to do anything about it yes that's the attitude isn't it, in the main. i went in to this fella er er er he seemed to know what i was talking about to start with that's a good start, yeah. and he said ah no problem i can order it for you if you'd like me to so i said i would and he said he'd phone me when er mm. when he er got it. and he either phoned me the following morning or if it wasn't the following morning it was the one after that. mm. that's good then. mm i was very impressed. i can't remember seeing erm a music shop no you w mind you i don't we don't go go up there much do we? very often. you don't erm the other day i thought to myself i'll walk up, see if that shop's still there and by the time, you know er i was dreaming obviously, and i'd walked by, i'd got time actually, i was killing time so er i thought oh you silly i said er you've still not er found out, so i went back and it is there but it's not some, it's not a shop that you'd notice. no, i mean he's got things that er he's got er cds and things in the window but it's not erm he doesn't blast your eardrums out as you get past the door like some of these do. oh no no no no, no no no no, no and er h m v. oh yes you've bought my tape. no which tape? my phil collins. oh w well we did have a look but we haven't found it anywhere. erm going along the centre near top shop, h m v i think it is, that'll have it. well you made a list of what you would like for your birthday, it doesn't say there's only two things on it. it doesn't say you're having both of them dear. you can hope. if not i'll have a load of money. you live in hope and you also die in despair. you don't clean it out very well do you? tt it's got bits of shortbread in it! well i put some on a piece of shortcake. and we only wanted the melted chocolate, we could have had a sticky finger then couldn't we ? yeah . use it without spilling it down. what did you say heidi, it'd be too rich? i just said very rich i didn't say too rich. very rich. but it was so runny wasn't it when it was in the it was quite runny. saucepan. and i had visions of you, put anything else in it would be running off your fruit. running down your chin. it didn't run down your chin it stuck to your chin. thank you very much. never mind, never mind it gives you something to do. would you like some more ? can i do that? course you can, yeah, yeah by all means. yes that's what it's there for, make use of it. well mine, i've had mine vicki because it we watched in bed with madonna. so you told me. would you like some more ? i'll just have a spot can i? help myself yes do help yourself. shall i? do help yourself and i'll make some coffee as well. mm i'm podged you podged? what an expression! you mean you are f t b full to bursting, no i'm not. or full as a bridge. did you see erm blind date last night? yes! did you see blind date yeah? which bit? oh her erm trousers! oh! the one with she went well with the one in jeans. did you see it last night? i know ooh oh and he said well he did look a bit like andy pandy didn't he? no he was a workman. i know he was. well he worked in a job centre. yes. no it wasn't anyway what about him? he did no. when he stood next to cilla. no i wanted to see how that lad last week oh the lad, the lad picking the girl? paul he was so sweet. the one, the one that made all those erm funny remarks yeah yeah. the ones which went to alton towers? yeah. i wanted to see how he got on because i didn't think she was the right one for him, i wouldn't have picked her i'd've picked somebody else they went well. but they seemed to, yes they went better than i and didn't he didn't he, didn't, didn't he look cute in that he looked nice in his suit. she looked nice that night very nice yes mm. they seem as though they might have hit it off. ha! cos she hasn't had much success lately has she with her blind date people? mm! she i wonder mummy if some of them just do it to be on the television. on the telly. you get people well now the the thing is and you're speaking to an expert here oh right, right clear the table, let's ha have you been on? i, i haven't been on but you're the first people i've told this to, i have been out with somebody who has been on oh. have you? as a result of her being on. oh! mm but she now then can you, do you watch it usually? yes i yeah. do you remember an american fella,elder you know, getting on? an old'un, older, yes. yeah. and er do you remember seeing it, meryl his name was, do you remember? i can't remember his name i'm not very good at names quite a good looking fella mm. and he picked number two yes? and do you remember him when they came back? he, he erm no i don't think i saw him on, on the return one. oh, it was a disaster, he was er my estimation of him went down a hundred percent because she smoked oh and he didn't did he? and he didn't yes. and er i it was a an absolute disaster er i, i mean he, he more or less er he went back to bed in the morning. and he didn't take her out? er mm. you know it really was terrible. anyway erm tt did y you saw the original programme? yes when he picked her, yeah. yeah. well number one was a lady who, do you remember, er cilla said to her erm er you've, and yo you've got a shop haven't you? er and she said yes and er er and it was a wedding shop mm. and she, and she said to cilla and said and what er what's the name you've given it? and she said hitched do you remember? well i can't just remember, i can remember, and the other, the other one was in some sort of trade too wasn't number three too? yeah. yeah she was erm she er was she antiques or something? yes. yes that's right that's right. well anyway erm this number w i if i, if i'd've picked any of them you see, i mean admittedly you, you've got a, a, a bet you can see what they look like, yeah. i would have picked number one you see and erm of course there was the er i knew the name barbara erm and knew she'd got a shop called hitched in northampton er er anyway when i was in the library i thought well i'll just see if hitched is in the telephone book you see, and it was. er but anyway er an and the address, full address was you see so a about a week i, i, i wrote, you know, to her and told her a bit about myself and er, you know, about, about seeing the programme etcetera and erm i got a letter did i get a letter back? yeah got a letter back from her and she seemed quite pleased to have the letter but she also started by i've been surprised by the amount of interest shown s si since i went on. from the pro anyway erm tt i went down the day before i went into hospital actually for my op, and er mm just spent a a day there and erm very nice erm she's got a lovely shop, she's in partner where is do you know the address? abing abington grove street. abington grove? oh that's where erm june was wasn't it? mm. no. yeah. no, abington grove aunty evelyn think she was living on she was off abington street wasn't she? yeah. do you remember that shop with in? abington grove yes. i mean i know that place so well and i can't just put my finger on abington grove. excuse me. cos there's abington avenue yeah. there is isn't there? yeah, the v yeah and, and, and i don't think they're all at the same place either are they? no. this is somewhere near d is it the racecourse? yeah. yes. somewhere near the racecourse yeah, yeah i understand. yeah. mm. mm! oh! ooh! there's a bit of news luce. right let's clear these and make some coffee. so is it furthering? tt oh i, i don't think so really. but it might if you keep in touch. yes and we er well it's different isn't it? er er do you know the er, it looked a fairly new building, i don't know how long it had been going, she's a member of the something club something club. it's got a casino upstairs. ah erm tt vicki what's that casino called that used to be somewhere near the erm boys brigade place? did used to be boys brigade? oh what on earth's it called? i shall kn i shall know it no . er yes he was an officer in the boys brigade and that's where he started all his duke of edinburgh work. erm i'll ask vicki if she can remember. names beat me sometimes these days. mm. i can see the place. you know when yeah. nana? and it's more in the centre of the town isn't it? it is. yes. it is yeah. nana there's that shop with that horsy in. oh on the kettering road? mm. used to have a beautiful, almost full size wasn't it? what do you mean full size? horses come in different sizes. well it wasn't a small model. but you get small ponies, i mean it could be a life size model of a horse that big. mm mm mm did you have a nice christmas? mm. that was ages ago. yes. did you? watched the box but we had, i don't think there was anything decent on but yeah had a nice christmas lunch, tash and john came and nice, had a nice time. cold yesterday. yes it was wasn't it? it snowing want to get a week off school so tasha's at langley mill did i hear? so is she working, she used to work at didn't she? yeah in the erm tt industrial estate near is she still there? yeah. is your dad at auckley? yeah erm don't know when he's back don't know anything. are, are you taking any other science subjects other than chemistry? i'm taking biology as well. biology? mm. i quite like maths but i don't like the teacher cos though i like maths i just don't like the lessons. they're a bit boring. hate english. oh no does everybody have to take maths now? yeah got to take maths. it's only if you do english literature as well but i don't. would you like to sit more comfortably in the lounge for your coffee? thank you. shall we sit in the lounge and be a bit more relaxed? can you see can you see through them? no they make my eyes go funny. oh they really suit you. i shouldn't think so because they're rather strong dear just a bit. those are. just a bit. just a bit, weeny, weeny weeny are you coming in the yeah i'm going to sleep on the settee. you needn't bother going to sleep you can just carry the tray for us. oh it's got mel gibson ? do sit down fred and i'll thank you. warning, this is a government health warning, there is going to be a large bang. very large. i don't know how much gun powder to put in these. had some party poppers at charlotte's mother . you had party poppers at charlotte's? yeah. oh very nice. ah! just what we need isn't it, on the floor. come on, pick it up. it's decorative, the dog can play with it. mummy wants me to carry the tray in. without the coffee we've been playing michael crawford's music on the tape, well we started because she was erm tt trying to get the tune for love changes everything so this morning we decided don't. that is an embarrassing subject. pardon? it's an embarrassing subject. embarrassing subject? love changes everything. we've got the t v what time are you going to the ? don't know don't care. are you walking up? what is the idea of having your trousers so the bottoms don't get ruined. so the bottoms don't get ruined, we're considering the bottoms of our jeans now. don't know. lovejoy, you've gotta watch lovejoy where's that gone to? oh mummy i'm sad. are you dear? is not on . well of course it's not on, it hasn't been on for weeks. and we can watch lovejoy. now would you like me to put it in for you or shall would you like to help yourself? yes put it in for me, not too much. not too much. is that enough? thank you yeah. sugar? yes please. i erm, i t you know the bounty? oh how's that? erm lucy thank you. hang on to that and i'll put some sugar in. you'll hit her listen you went in to her. i did not, look what she did to my jumper. thank you. thank you. i did nothing to her what's the matter? well she was asleep. if you look on the worktop broken is it? no. cos if it is i'm getting a new one. come here! come i think er there's a surprise in the bag fred brought. would you like to go and see? yeah. you were being silly, i didn't do anything. have you got enough milk in there fred? yes thank you. mummy anyway, you know that you enjoyed looking at the bounty? you know right at the end he had those very gorgeous of his? very gorgeous what? sorry yes? it blew out and it. erm nine fifty to twelve o'clock, how long is that? two, three hours isn't it? nine fifty to twelve o'clock, what's that? she picks all these films on the television she wants to watch and they're all late. most of them are rubbish i should think. that's mine. are we opening these or? are we opening these? i thought we could open them and have one with the point is after nine o'clock they're not fit for under eight human consumption. under eighteen viewing. what's this about if it's after n well if what's after nine o'clock, a film? mm. the films that are on television, if they're after nine o'clock they're not suitable for under eighteens viewing. excuse me are you saying that young guns is not suitable for people under eighteen? i think that's a bit of a joke somehow. have you gotta be there for half past? yes. right. but i like, i like chocolate. are you go are you going to sing to us i like warm your voice up before you get up there. it's not singing today. oh. isn't it? think i'm gonna change this before it gets ruined. that sounds a good idea. ooh a caramel. i think mummy has first choice dear. i'm only looking, i haven't even got down to the thing yet. she's only looking so she can say don't take that one, don't take that one and i like that as well. i know. i know we can't have it. you can have the coffee cream. might get there in a minute but i think these are going to go on the floor in a minute. well i well one minute it does take a long while doesn't it? oh it does yes it does. no i don't want one thanks. oh. mummy first. you don't want the toffee do you? no. oh they've got a new box i think. oh doesn't it? right what shall we have lucy? shall we have erm did you watch baywatch yesterday mother? no i didn't. thank you. good wasn't it? he got kidnapped herbie got kidnapped who did? herbie. oh yeah. we bought some toffees last week, chocolates last week in thorntons, supposed to be assorted we bought a pound and, and they were caramels and both malcolm i didn't get caramel i and vicki we don't really like caramels because of chewing them and every one we we are trying to preserve our teeth. every one was a caramel i didn't get all caramels we sort of had one had one and said oh that was a caramel, i'll try a different shape tried it, oh that was a caramel, oh well i'll try this triangular shape, oh that's a caramel as well, ooh. but we did get through the pound. mm. well it's not difficult when you've got somebody else joining you. excuse me! i did not eat that many thank you very much! right. go and get yourself ready for i'm just i'm just sorting this out. what was it? this is what i recorded, i recorded this, the erm jagged edge which was erm erm dreary quite average thriller that hots up nicely towards the end with call it erm erm erm becomes erm uncomfortably memorable. something jeff bridges who's not very nice but steaming rich might have been found recently heidi we don't really want to know. and the other thing i videoed was and would you switch off it's eastenders. was marathon man dustin hoffman. i'm not watching eastenders i'm watching the video. you won't have time. i'm not watching it i'm just getting it at the beginning. got on it. i think he's i think he's going to mm. well what's he gonna do? go and go straight into that oh that'll be a nice explosion. must see this. oh yes. ya! look at that, yeah. erm oh it's him, what's his name that, no it's not colin he's been in it for ages now. tt oh dear heidi! just switch it off so we don't er ten past two past it's twenty past two. i think you'd better get yourself sorted out. did you have washes this morning? yeah. i did. has she got any brothers and sisters? brother. oh how old is he? year younger. oh. i bet he was really pleased that's him out the bill which room did you sleep in, her bedroom? the lounge. oh. the lounge. is that him out the bill? no it's your imagination. he was in something the other day which i watched. you know that old d c i nana? ray have you seen any more holidays on er teletext then? not real, real not super. but of course i've not been in the market you, you know. i've er so there's no point in looking in case there is something that appeals? well i, i still do look er y you know but not er m you see last year th there's not been bargains with erm, who was it who went bust? erm you know the big er yeah. big intasun when that you see all those people needed erm other holidays and then with yugoslavia coming out of the market because of the unrest there trouble there. people who were going there wanted holidays so there wasn't too much over capacity. have you gotta go back with your hand? yes i see er the surgeon again on thursday and i'm having physio. is it painful? no not really. i it's it's aches? not painful er but it when you er it is when they're doing physio and when i do, you know, i have, have to do it myself, i should be doing it every hour. have they, well did they cut you across the palm of your hand? yes my it started there and went up to there. i'm not going nowhere near that thing. i thought vernon was er more down across his hand and he couldn't d do anything with his palm of his hand. are you gonna have a chocolate fred? no thanks. not at the moment thank you, i think i've really had you're really podged? yes. what would you like lucy? well don't have that one because it's apricot. it won't do any because it won't do anything for my waistline. i know you can get sport, weather, news whatever on but i wouldn't know what else you can get or what page. oh well i haven't got as far as that because i so how do you know just what is available? erm i shall have to sit one afternoon and go through it all . yes well i if you're on one i think it was erm when john was tt playing with it fiddling around i, i noticed yeah. he just stood there ernie's ernie's winning numbers. ernie's winning numbers? ah. bet it wasn't ours was it? i don't know what mine are to tell you the truth. well you'll have to have yours glued erm tt to the side of the television set when ernie's numbers comes up you can well they're supposed to let you know aren't they if erm if you win? they are supposed to tell you. yeah. i'm sure they will let you know. cos when it first started i used to check in the sunday paper every day but er i dunno it's a waste of time . they've got the address, they're supposed to let you know when yeah you come up. i have a niece who erm she had quite a few, she's won several times. and it's a case of coals, taking coals to newcastle yeah yeah. but it would be quite nice to collect on, on something. but you get quite a lot of these erm i suppose they're trying to promote what they're say selling you are, you have been picked out of nottingham yeah to have these er four numbers, a chance to win about twenty thousand. i keep sending them back but i haven't got the twenty thousand yet. ah i did win s it was before, before tasha and john got married it was er one of these catalogues that came through you see anyway i sent the thing back and i got the catalogue and they wanted some things out and you get twenty five pounds off whatever you ordered, the first order, so quite alright but i did win something out of that draw twenty five p they sent me a cheque for twenty five p and i was going to tear it up i thought well no i might as well put it in the in the bank twenty five p. and i waited till i'd got a few bit more money to put in and sort of hid it amongst all these others, mm. yeah twenty five p i won on that one. what have you got your nose there for? but talk about a hassle they wanted, they, well they picked the be the pr you know the present that you c you claim erm, a deep fryer and i think it was in march time and by july it still hadn't come in spite of ringing and writing and everything else really? and then they informed me that it was out of stock so i wrote them rather a a polite letter saying that it took them a long to realize it was out of stock when it had been ordered in march and erm i thought their communi communicative system in their office was er non existent. anyway they said what else would they like and they had some, a set of luggage, well it's only this nylon stuff but it was very useful for them to take away with them it did a bit of good the and i, i put in this letter i shall no longer order, i shall what was it? i shall be very wary of having any contact with your firm again . they're still pestering me, sending me letters and we haven't heard from you recently what would you like from the catalogue sort of thing and i only had this catalogue to cos i pa you know i paid for it what di did they have? oh i think an electric drill it was in the sixties so with the twenty five pounds off it brought it down a bit and i, i paid for it with one cheque so i wasn't having it on the weekly er er it worked out i think vicki gave some of it towards it. but i thought if that's how they run a business so then when they, they moved house i realized they were using an ordinary saucepan to do their chips in and i had visions of fat boiling over and cos it's gas so i bought them one a very nice deep fryer as a housewarming present. it came in very useful because they were quite a while before the gas was connected. but you've only got, if you w if you put chips in a basket in a chip pan if it, the fat boils up you can at least lift the chips out straight away but if you're putting them straight into the pan there's no hope of stopping it coming over. yeah. oh i kept thinking of this fire hazard thought i can't, i can't live with that any longer with the thought of them using a saucepan. cos they hadn't seen any danger to it i suppose. so then john, he tries all sorts of things out, you know doughnuts and things like that and it's a thermostatically controlled yeah one so he knows what the temperature's going to be and er he's i think he's quite enjoyed experimenting with it. they've got quite a nice it's not a large house but it's a good size lounge and dining room and kitchen. the bathroom is downstairs but there are three bedrooms so it's quite a decent size for them. but the base of the bed is still in the dining room, they can't get it up up the stairs although i although it folds up, you know, it's it's standing like this in in the dining room. the cat er likes it there, it goes and sits on the top of it. you're not cooking are you? vicki ? sh she got the door closed? sounds though er soun well she gets in that kitchen you know and sounds like vicki hello you're not cooking are you ? i can't hear with the washer going. you're not cooking are you? no. oh. what are you busy doing? i've just washed the wine glasses out. oh well i would have come and done those ah there's only four. i've done them now. oh right. being lazy. i had such a lazy week christmas week i went down to er northamptonshire to my son's. all i did was wash up and we didn't do anything else. talk about being lazy. they wouldn't let me do a thing. never went out till friday because it was, they went walking but it was so windy cos they're here and the garden's sort of down to a field and then it's all fields and fields and fields and the wind just comes across like gales all the time. i think i've never spent such a lazy week. were you here at christmas? no. you were down there? mm. mm. went on the saturday. they came up to view heidi's riding display then i went back with them and vicki and malcolm diverted from barford on the sunday where they'd been for lunch and picked me up sunday afternoon the sort of following weekend. first time i hadn't spent christmas with vicki i think since they were married. we went to the theatre in london on the friday night. they have erm what's called the players' theatre, i don't know whether you've heard of it at all erm they belong, they're members of it. it's only the ground floor, really, and it is set out with a bar at the back and refreshments like the old music halls used to be with every so often, every few seats there is a table so that it's a thing to have your drink and refreshments to hand at the table. and before the proceedings you drink the health to queen victoria oh yes and it's a, an old fashioned music hall, more often than not well when we went it was a pantomime but the first part of the evening was an o a music hall mm. type of entertainment, then it was a pantomime, beauty and the beast, but they keep as near to the original script as they can always, well it was written eighteen fourteen or something. quite entertaining. and you sing chorus so you know they give you a song sheet and you sing then. it's very expensive to for what it is, i mean it's fifteen pounds a ticket but if you, if you're a member of course you get in reduced yes. but you've got to, terence said it's so dear to be a member you have got to keep going to get your, your money back. but it's, it's a nice homely it's all been refurbished in the last year. and they've made a very nice restaurant on the top floor. only a very small one but it's very nice nice food. then when we came out we s went around london to see the sights but the decorations but why we went i didn't think anything to them at all this year. cos we didn't get ou we didn't fin it didn't finish till about well half past ten if not later so we were late getting home. mm. but they pop down to london as though it's down into town but they're quite near the motorway so it's useful. yes well i've often said northampton's about the right distance. er y y yeah. you can, it's within striking distance isn't it? yes. it doesn't take them long at all to get in the outskirts of london, it's weaving your way yeah. through when you've got there. yeah. well her mum's knee wasn't there so she thought she ah! she might as well sit on her gran's her mum's knee will be back. on her gran's knee. mum's knee will be back. ah!somebody else's knee? don't want do you luce? is his eye running again? i think he must have a bit of cold in it or something. have you still got a hair in from your haircut. haircut? this weather's enough to give anybody a cold eye isn't it? mm? well we set out with the good intention of taking her for a long walk this morning but er we changed our mind didn't we? didn't do, didn't think it would do you any good did we? oh it was so damp and ooh and miserable oh it was miserable yeah. yesterday it was very cold but it was very nice yes. and dry wasn't it? yes i, i walked from er where was it, langmere lane? walked from road well wasn't, isn't that langmere lane where you park the car? no langmere lane's the other side of the garage. well what's that lane called then? tt that goes into compton acres doesn't it? i don't know what that's called. car conked out so vicki stayed with the car and her who we were going to take a walk in ruddington, and i walked home with her to get malcolm to go over with the other car. and it was quite ni actually although i was hurrying because i thought of them sitting in the car erm it was very pleasant walking, very slippery though along by walford cemetery and all down there. you really stepped out. yes. nice crisp morning wasn't it? it was a pleasant morning for walking, it would have been quite nice but it was cold waited. well you were frozen weren't you waiting? cold day, it was me that but i think with hurrying so, quite a good walk. it's alright when i first got in then after a while my legs all started going wobbly . oh yeah. but saturday mornings we usually drop heidi don't we? yes. and then go in the the building and leisure centre park. leisure park at ruddington and they've got a quite a lot paths and yes of intersecting paths haven't they? and it's just opposite where we drop heidi, we used to walk along the road it doesn't really lead anywhere only to a couple of farms does it? but if we go in the park she can run more, or in the summer we go down by the old railway track don't we? yes. go through the farm and go along there. see the flowers and listen to the birds. don't we? but you had a walk on your lead yesterday didn't you? and this morning we got as far as didn't we? went in for a hot chocolate and that was it we didn't and then we just well we did we walked outside didn't we? yeah so she could come off the lead. but it was so damp and cold and not nice was it? she enjoys herself cos she chases around all the beds doesn't she there and she doesn't go far she just, she just doesn't bother anybody else. do you? and heidi was going to phone to say what time she wanted collecting and so we'd got to be back couldn't be out too long could we? no. and leave the we needn't have bothered though need we? no! by the look of it. cos she asked last night, i was supposed to be taking jenny and then when fay came she asked me if i'd take fay as well today so it looks as though charlotte's mum did everybody took everybody home. mm. well it's an awkward time to ask people to go and fetch them when they're if they're preparing dinner isn't it? most people don't have a sunday dinner as they used to. i don't think it is a traditional not i don't think it is. no. it is mind you when you go to our morning service it is. exactly . well we always used to have what i call a traditional sunday dinner yes we did. father used to like that so but well sometimes we still do but sometimes we have something else instead don't we? totally different, yeah. yes. lives have changed. yeah, all changed. but i think there are a lot of people that don't have a sunday dinner, whatever form. think there are a lot of children that just have, well i think they must just live on snacks, they just mm. something here, beans on toast, open a packet of this, tin of that and or a take away or pizza or mm. we went to church last sunday didn't we? mhm well it's the first time i've been this year. well you're right yes, it would be this year but i didn't go much at the end of last year did i? no well you were away i was away and then i had that awful little cough first thing in the morning erm and i think i, to be quite honest, i lost interest in going. well last sunday it seemed to be going quite nicely to start with, trying to think what it was, communion it was carole communion yes carole she's normally very interesting but she was very hard to hear. carole . malcolm said it was . well she was very good didn't he? but he was sitting underneath her. yeah but we'd got erm tt oh, leo at the side of us so he was, do you know the that do christian ? no i know of them. yeah what's her name? sandra sa sandra sandra i think it is, sandra you couldn't hear anything could you? he was chattering away, dad was replying to him, he was up and down the steps, shuffling on the carpet and they were having this game, you know, one hand on top of the other so oh! it was clapping and oh dear and you just but as we were saying er talking to janet afterwards there was another little one down at the side, erm mum was getting a bit irate with him, but you see they don't take anything for the children to do. i mean you can't expect them to be quiet, just sit and do nothing all that time. that's right. it didn't finish till five to twelve did it last sunday? well that's early, i should have thought it was was it after that? well i thought it was, yes. it might have been well you can't expect them to just sit. i mean fair enough you can't expect them to be quiet. but i think the parents should take something for them to do, i mean we used to take colouring books and books for the children to look at and yeah. whatever so there was something to keep them occupied and erm you know have a bag and as soon as they got fed up with that right you'd get something else out to take their interest and well peter did remark to this lady didn't he? who's child was making a dickens of a commotion noise, that the creche was in the yes. and she did actually take him out at one time but she looked she looked absolute daggers when she took him out didn't she? and then she came in. yes and he and he'd got a car that he'd got out of the creche i think, cos he hadn't got it when he went out. no, and of course he was running that along the seat and dropping it . and dropping it off the seat and whatever. but leo hadn't got anything but he certainly made enough noise, oh dear. so what with carole's soft voice and that we didn't get a lot of and it seemed as though it was well like that, several times i went last year and i really got a bit cheesed off. oh er yes i was going to say we suddenly heard a chorus didn't we? oh yes that was it. oh well we've got there are quite a few children in here, let's have some choruses. i don't like that. you're all in the mood and along this line and then all of a sudden it's yes that's right it was before communion, yes. we'd had the collection and then it was all choruses and then it was oh where were we, he'd, then he'd forgotten his glasses, couldn't find his glasses, what page were we didn't know where he was. oh dear . and then we went back to the prayer after the collection didn't we? mm. where are my glasses? so somebody had to tell him he'd left them at the altar. altar. so it was we'd got distractions and then we suddenly chip in with all these choruses er no! didn't go down too well with me that didn't . on a family service fair enough, when you've got the family service and it's all yeah, mm, right. you know, bits of this and bits of that but there again i think the family service ought to be a lot shorter than it is well it certainly should be because it's for the families, for the young children and they, they can't understand what it, all of it is about so it should be kept as simple and as short as possible. and the ch and the children should have their own address. er well one address that is suitable for children. grown ups can sit and listen to it all close their ears. probably get far more response from the grown ups erm but some of these childrens' addresses that we've had at st paul's they are very interesting and you get something out of them. yeah. i miss going to st paul's really. well we did go there one sunday didn't we? mm. was that when malcolm was away? mm. we could have gone today. we went on poppy day. that was it. didn't we? we used to go once a month you know when the girls were in the guides, used to go for their parade service and if you were at auckley, malcolm and i used to go up with heidi didn't i? mm. walk up. and we got to know all the people there. mm. and we went there for the christmas one didn't we? the midnight service. well i didn't cos i wasn't here. oh no. no that's one thing i missed about christmas. going to . well jane did say no i don't think there's one in the village but if you want to go to one i'll take you to daventry would be nearest, yes, but she said i'll take you to one if you want to go. yeah i think we went in november to er st paul's didn't we? mm. well you can fit so much in to an hour i mean it's not rushed. and it's for the children. but it never lasts more than an hour whatever he does. yes peter goes on and on and on. yes er and of course i if er rather like it seems as happened last week, if he seems to have got a bit of time he seems to need to have to extend it fill it. yeah. yes he's not going to finish before twelve o'clock at the earliest, choose what. i don't know whose idea it is that it goes on and on. yeah the eight thirty, the eight o'clock service is a lot more seems a lot more compact, i know you haven't got the hymns, but it seems to erm start, go on and finish, you know it mm. it's all there but that sat sunday when hazel was here and i, and she didn't want to go so i said i'd stay with her and cook the dinner when y when you came back you said it's a good job you didn't come, it didn't finish till half past twelve and you came straight home and you were here about oh that's right. what ha what was that sunday?and then something extra, yes. that was a long one wasn't it? i know when you came in you said well it's a good job you didn't come. can't remember, cos i don't think you stayed for coffee and you didn't get home till it was about ten to one wasn't it? mm. cos everything was cooked when you mm can't remember now. when you got here. oh it's ridiculous i think. so what service is it next week? don't know. today wasn't it? peter was saying, you know peter ? yes his name is isn't it? i always , peter peter and that's it. erm do you know i've just wo wondered if i put on their christmas card. did you i gave it you didn't i? mm. no somebody would've noticed that. it's alright peter used to live facing them at er malton erm he was saying about the charismatic how long their services go on, it's about three hours, but he said you know they take their flasks or they just walk out and have a break if they want to and then go back in . i thought well jolly good idea that. well tasha went down to one or two with joyce didn't she? mm and she erm what was it, six o'clock and come back at nine ? yes. tt mm. are you ready for a cup of tea? that'd be very nice, mm could you manage a cup of tea fred ? i'll manage a cup of tea and then i'll pop off thank you. gosh di do you know it's quarter to four! mm. what now? yes. oh my doesn't time fly? well i looked at that and i thought i thought well i'm, i'm sure it's quarter to and checked on mine. ooh. let's make a cuppa. i can see your eyes keep going, yes. she's only gone in there. every noise i hear her, i can see her eyes going round . where do you go for your physio, queens? no i'm er having it privately like i've had the other, you know, on my er bupa thing. well similar to bupa yeah. yeah. so it's on regent street. did you get good treatment in the hospital? mm. i was only there a couple of days but yes it was very good. did you find it lonely in a room on your own? no erm well i, i mean the first day er in the, the mor you were busy getting ready no i, i went in at half past seven in the morning and i was in the operation theatre before quarter to nine that same morning so that morning was taken up and the afternoon and evening, chris came in the evening tt and er oh er bob,th the curate, our former curate, came ? i er i phoned him up to let him know i was going in and he's not too far away you see so asked him if he'd like to pop in so he did about half eleven. then i'd er erm a friend come in in the afternoon and er can't remember if i had anybody in the evening or not. er then er s sun that's saturday, then sunday erm i er the surgeon wa was coming in about er lunch time, roundabout lunchtime, and i was expecting to go after that and prior to that, i didn't know she was coming, one of the nuns, it was i i was in the convent oh. er, i didn't see a nun at , most of them were just ordinary nursing staff, just popped in to see how i was and we had a long chat about oh yes. various things, you know, work and church and the country and it was quite putting the worlds to right. mm it was quite good. so er i, time didn't drag at all. i, i was in when i had a hysterectomy and, but i think i was so ill i was glad really that erm i was on my own then. actually i did not see another patient at all well i didn't, i was in because ten days yeah and i, i never saw anybody else. my, my sister- in-law, she w had to go in just before christmas, had to rather suddenly she's was diagnosed in the summer as having diverticulitis and they planned a sort of diet out to keep her really well and she was in terrible pain and they rushed her off for a scan and er she goes privately cos vernon, i think actually his is bupa that he's in, he joined when it first came out and she wrote to me and she said oh i'm, i just feel so lonely, there's nobody to talk to, i've got nobody to see or anything and she felt a bit cos she wasn't really that ill yeah. but erm i think she could've done with a bit of company. yeah erm there are pros and cons aren't there? local, quite a little way from the hospital. thank you. she said that also now her cousin's staying with them so vernon was trying to take this cousin out to see the sort of surrounding district er thank you. a bit so that er they couldn't thank you. spend all the time with wynn. thank you dear. are you gonna sort fred's cushion out then? yes it only wants stitching up, i said er really i could sit and do it now but i couldn't be bothered. that, that sounds mean doesn't it? i just felt i couldn't be bothered to well well there's no problem. to sit and do it . well you, you want me to do it decently. yes. have to sort out the covers for these. yes. she can't decide what colour to have can you? well that bluey-green does go. it does, if you can get anything else to match it. well i'll see if i can get some candles that colour. i can see you! out of the corner of your eye, yes i can! yes i can! you've been since tasha got married haven't you? yeah. yes. well we must have had this cos when did this come, august? september? ah! end of, end of september i think. end of september,october, no end of september. mm. for our old age, this is. the other one was getting a bit low for us. wasn't it? yes. it wasn't that the springs had gone it was just low when y when you had it wasn't it? keep still lucy. oh and, well it must've been since we were at malton so we'd've had it, what, about four three or four years when we went to malton? yo you had it in slay drive didn't you? no, not slay drive, at er paddock, the paddocks. no we'd only had it three or four years when we went to malton and pam said then ooh if ever you get rid of this just let me know, it's just right for me cos she's only short isn't she? she's only short you see. and she said so many chairs are so deep that my legs are dangling, she said whereas this one, it's so comfortable and i can get my feet on the floor. erm and it must have been oh i don't know, two or three years ago must be at least two or three years ago when we were talking about, umm-ing and ah-ing, and she said well don't forget if ever you want to lose this just let me know. erm, yes, right, no we shan't be losing it and of course when we decided, rang her up, oh great, so at last i can have my chair . well she was gonna have the three piece suite actually but she lives in a bungalow and of course the settee was a six foot settee which they don't make now mm. and she found that she couldn't get the settee and the chairs in because, if you remember, they were sort of open armed, they, they were very wide. so anyway she had the er settee and brought a friend with her with a well i think it was one of these range rovers that you can seat erm, you know, about seven and he dropped the seats down and got the settee in, i don't know how he managed it. then i think the erm the chairs, malcolm phoned erm was it the homeless, was it shelter, one of those organizations and they came and picked them up. which, gonna say the chairs, they went to an organization didn't they? it was samaritans, no. can't remember. or family first? family family first. family first yes. family first. yeah. they brought a huge van and they were so pleased, these men that came for them. but these felt so hard didn't it? when we first had it, when we sat on it . but it's not as hard as one that we tried cos we wanted a firm one, she wanted something firm but nice and high. i like it. it is nice though, yes. but it, it is it's firm but not hard hard. it felt it on the first morning when it came in and i sat on it, i thought well i'm sure it didn't feel like the one we tried in the shop didn't feel like this but and you can just put your head back and close your eyes and that's it. we tried one yesterday in and vicki had to pull me out didn't you? yeah you see, well when we were looking you see so many and you think ooh that looks nice, ooh that's nice but some of them are just so squadgy and well nice if you, if that's how you want to sit mm. in a chair but we felt we wanted erm something with a bit more support. it's alright for the young ones. yes. it's alright when you're young to have a a sink-into one. mm. think it was last was it last monday when i was next door for coffee? i don't know what brought it up, norah said something about her, is she allowed on the settee now. i said oh goodness yes, that's why they bought a leather one so she could go on it . well no, it wasn't really! he'd got all the er information about it when he came and he said it was the best type of covering if you've got dogs or cats. she doesn't sit on the settee much does she? no. i don't know, she does in the morning quite often, she sits sits on her cushion. yeah. it took a long time before she'd sit in that chair. but at night time, if you're not in, she sits in the chair waiting mm with her head up waiting for you. mm. it took a long time before she would sit in there though didn't it? yes. mm mm mm can't you get comfy? tt oh dear. well she wants to go to sleep but she also wanted to know what is happening. nosy aren't you luce? her eyes keep going like this when she heard the noise. what time is malcolm due home, seven? long day isn't it, when he goes at half past seven in the morning. it is. where will he be now? auckley evensong at auckley. i should think. think he was gonna come straight back. mm it'll be about five to half past when he leaves i should think by the time he's cleared up . as long as the fog doesn't come down again. mm looking a bit misty. i was wondering whether to go erm over to langley after collecting heidi. half four there for five mm and then get back. well want a tow out again when he gets mm that's isn't it? it looks as though it's stopped raining now. mm. it was raining quite heavily when er i took heidi up. but then it doesn't seem possible when you think back that it's been and gone. been and gone and we're now getting ready for easter, all these and cards are coming into the shops and yeah. easter eggs are coming into the shops mm. yeah. ads have started for easter eggs. yeah somebody i i can't remember who it was, i heard somebody i think on the radio or television talking about the, you know it was the beginning of january and they've already put er hot cross buns in the supermarkets. oh yes! oh where did i see hot cross buns? oh marks and spencers when i buy those croissants they'd got hot cross buns on sale. cos i, i couldn't find them to start when is, when is easter? march, april? april, it's late this year isn't it? that's right. i couldn't see them and i was and you had to walk round the bread shelves twice and they were right on the bottom shelf when i eventually tracked them down and they had the hot cross buns on the shelves. mm. well they had a lot of erm christmas stuff left anyway. yes. cakes and biscuits tins didn't they? marks and sparks when we went. yes they'd still got a lot of those tins left. when did i go in? wednesday? tuesday? no when did i go in? probably wednesday. they, they'd still got, anyway they'd still got a lot of tinned stuff christmas stuff left, mm. i think they must have over catered at christmas time. asda don't seem to have much left over do they? no. because quite often erm we've our birthday presents haven't we from the stuff we see in the sale after, the christmas stuff for the girls. oh bought another tin of biscuits or whatever haven't we? or yes. haven't got anything. and the children's things,have got quite a few for the haven't i? yeah yeah bits and pieces, yeah. for the children up there. well we went in to asda this morning when did we go in,?we couldn't get into and it was empty. in fact we were undecided whether to stop and do, do tomorrow's shopping weren't we ? but we de we did not did we? we we'd left her in the car actually. yes, because we were on route for doggy walking weren't we? yes. but we couldn't, didn't walk too far today, it was so well it was so cold and tt oh! you tired? early night tonight. you need an early night tonight. well you were late on friday night again to bed. ten o'clock , that is not late. it's late for somebody your age. do you think it is? well fourteen, ten o'clock? well it's about right, well it certainly wouldn't want to be much later. that's known as a diplomatic answer. are you giving us a rendition? oh. are you ready? could you just go to sleep? oh that's a shame, i could. i think heidi would if she was left there ten minutes. go to sleep my darling close your pretty blue eyes where did you get that from ? lady moon is watching from out the dark blue sky where did he get it from? the little stars are peeping stars are peeping to see if you are sleeping i thought they really were you know. what, peeping? yeah close your eyes my darling no go to sleep i can remember learning that oh my mother erm told me it so it's been passed my mother told me it. so just you remember it and pass it on, yeah. right come on then. that's how a lot of these songs yeah. old songs are passed on. by word of mouth, you don't perhaps perhaps her mother used to sing it to her did she? who? your mother's mother used to sing it to her. might have done i don't know where she got it from i'm sure. i sang that for hours on end to tasha. yeah it wouldn't work with her. not that i can sing but it was er an apology for singing. well perhaps that's why she didn't go to sleep . come on then, let's get you off to to walk wake her up. hmm! she'd never get there. come on. oh well i think i'll, i'll be , i'll move my onto the road. oh it's raining. was it raining when you came fred? no. is it now? mm. no because i, i decided i wouldn't put a coat on cos i was coming in the car. is that let me er i can i'll get my glasses. it's come away from the zip er er i don't know whether it's er oh! repairable is it? well that's easy, it only wants sewing up there fred. oh does it? yes, do you want me to do it for you? if you would i'd be glad. do you want it now or or later? no, no no, any time. yes, that's simple. simple. have you got a zip in? oh yes your zip's the other, the other side. ah yeah. yes, will do. it wouldn't take long to do it now but i can't be bothered no don't. being lazy. oh peace after heidi! sh she was it the week, the new year's weekend? she was away at malcolm's cousin's from the sunday till the wednesday evening and we hadn't realized how much noise she makes until she came home on the wednesday evening. three lovely peaceful days then she comes in peace is shattered,oh dear . she's so full of life, whereas tasha could be around and you'd yeah. you, you didn't know she was er here, she'd have a book or some yeah. but the other night when heidi, when she was practising her song, she's so dramatic all the time going you know if only she'd do that when she's on the stage you know put erm action into her singing. when's it taking place? erm it's the last saturday of half term so i should think it's about erm when's half term? eighteenth on the monday i think so it'll be twenty erm it's the fifth is it when i, no it won't it's not as late as that is it eighteenth, nineteenth, twentieth, twenty one about the twenty second, something like that. it's usually the last saturday of the half term because then she can have them during the week to practise. yeah. well the, all the others go on a saturday but heidi said she would be in it if she didn't have to go on saturday, every saturday, because she goes riding you see at nine o'clock nine till four so er wendy said oh she'll have her up on a sunday afternoon the two or three principals. and this erm play we went to in the haymarket, it was, it was difficult for children to understand but er the scenery, the way they use the scenery, it was absolutely fantastic, you know, to make the of a desert and a yeah. all the satellites hanging down it was very good the way it had all been done in, in that respect but what i found was the first bit was very boring,i found but when it got going a bit it was better but the whole moral of the story was that nowhere is perfect to live but it's hard for y young children like this to yeah. yeah quite. to know what it's all about, yeah. quite. gosh that was quick well straight up, wendy was there so straight up. oh, it makes a change that wendy's there on time. she's a teacher at the school, you know, wendy . i don't know whether you've come across her at all. that's how er heidi started going to her drama classes. er no i was trying t do you know i can't remember er mrs 's christian name. irene. irene. yeah, i know it as well as anything but er er at times you just er er i don't know why i was thinking about it yesterday for some reason, oh probably because i got erm the official invite to the er thing on friday. another cup of coffee fred? er no thank you. would you like another cup? no thank you dear. is wendy bringing her back? er which is wendy? wh what's she look like? erm well i'd say it's curly sort of oh it's dark hair, curlyish mm. with glasses. and she never stops talking. never stops talking. takes the younger age, reception age er what was the name of the teacher tended to be on the slim side, longish hair, at the do at christmas? she was with the children er er, looking at the stage, to the left. forty fiveish, fifty? was she wearing trousers? can't remember. kay? she was with the children. don't kn tell me the er if you tell me the kay in fact she s maybe i don't know her. she spoke to me as er er as though no lucy. as though she'd known me, you know, but i couldn't even remember seeing her before. don't think it was kay. no, trying to think who else was there. well it wouldn't be heather cos she's dark and short and young. small? no. well small erm not not particularly small is it er i, i mean i ca i'm i, i've no idea. i would have said she was medium height slim build, possibly it's the only one i can think of that could and er remember seeing somebody in trousers. yeah kay, down to about her ears? yes. that was kay wasn't it? i, i don't i don't know kay. ch what was the surname again? , may have been her. the funny thing was i was asking irene who she was because i couldn't remember seeing her and then, later on, she came up to me as though she'd known me, you know ? yeah. it was very good wasn't it? the er yeah, mm. and an unusual slant yeah. on the story. yeah. and then was it er a little while after that malcolm and i went to see the racing demons? no, the parents' panto oh yes. oh i didn't go. you got me a ticket but i didn't go did i. a cheese. what was that called? crumple stilton or something wasn't it? the parents at the school all get together and do a pantomime for the children. erm i think they, i think they do that during the day and then in the evening it's on for anybody else who wants to see that take-off on cheeses. that was quite good. yeah we went to see racing demons at the beginning of december didn't we? cos we went with margaret and roger. mm i suppose, yes. mm. it was quite quite good, at the theatre royal. oh we got sidetracked er erm about erm tt blind date didn't i? i, i said i was sp you were speaking to an expert er so we went off at a blind tangent. but they, they er i mean you don't have to be too bright to realize that the questions have been given them and the answers have g been given them. well somebody, it was hazel wasn't it? mm. she erm said well of course they know the questions beforehand and the, the answers are always written out for them erm but i, i wouldn't have thought all the answers because some of them come over quite spontaneously. yeah, yeah bu yeah, but they are rehearsing for two and a half hours . they don't see the person they don't see the er the they're kept separate but erm the they are rehearsed. so er,y you know. an an and i could erm i, i erm her name was barbara erm actually it was rather interesting there a oh have you remembered the name of that club? no. i would know it if you told me. well i can see it on mm. yeah. a anyway it doesn't matter. er but she's a member and we went there for lunch and it was the ideal place, you know, cos there weren't any, many people around and so we had quite a nice lunch and erm whilst we were there we then had a drink in er in the bar and erm her the, the secretary of the club, a lady, came to talk to barbara and she mentioned that she'd seen her on blind date you see, and so i got to know more by listening to them two speaking er and er that's where i learnt about er that. erm well some of the questions you think erm you think erm you know, aren't they a bit well way out or what made them ask that. well i've said all along yeah and so and some of the answers. how do they think up those answers in such a yeah. short time but er yeah, yeah yeah. now we know. it takes some of the erm tt oh what's, what's the word? when er no. when you, when you think that they're racking their brains and it yeah. seems far more interesting than knowing that they've rehearsed for hours on end. i think sometimes the odd er the odd times people are putting a bit more yeah,a and in fact in the programme i th the one that barbara was in, i can remember the er, as it happens, i, i was out er when that programme came on and i taped it so i s i, i've still got that particular programme, and the lady at the end er on one of her questions she'd obviously forgotten what she was going to say er and sort of made something up and er she turned to er as they were just panning away from her, she turned to her next door neighbour and more or less said i forgot what i was going to say, you know. mm. mm. cos they don't have any notes or anything do they? so no, no, no, oh no i mean er it's supposed to look natural yes, yes a and erm oh yes i mean some of the things that, especially the er the more senior people now th those people on the erm programme last night, did you see it? yeah. yeah. yeah, clarence. yeah er they, they wouldn't have come out with some of the things about er i can't remember what was said that erm you know er wouldn't mind meeting you in the bath or yes or under the shower, yes. we w that, that, that s you know that s yeah, that sort of thing erm i think they are a bit er yes. i suppose that's just i mean it, oh yes i mean actually make it lighthearted. actually erm the, the er it is a very good, from the television people's point of view, it is an excellent programme because i y people are interested aren't they? yes. a and furthermore they're interested in, in the way out somebody and that, in fact i think looks a little bit different. they sometimes manipulate the questions so that the person picks to make them the right one that they would like to be picked . do you know what i mean? yeah yeah, could be. erm oh did you, did you see the one with that, it was last week when they came back i think, that naive bloke, lad from devon? oh yes. dear oh dear oh dear! was that the one where the girl was a nurse. a nurse or d yes. and she was only a bit older? yeah. that's the one yes his that's the one. he was eighteen and she was nineteen or something and she kept saying how childish he was. yeah, oh it was predictable that wasn't go to work. he was wasn't he? very immature. how far in front of us seeing it is it erm recorded? erm i think barbara, i think it was july when she did it. so that would be, and that would be about either november or december wouldn't it? yes. cos i suppose they do so many recordings and then screen them don't they? yeah, yeah sort of for the series and then, then there's a break. well cilla black's one of the highest paid erm presenters isn't she? on the television. mm. esther rantzen for the b b c and cilla black i think on the a t v. the erm did you see the one where this was er er for the more senior ones again, er about the fifty mark, where the fellow was a hypnotist and a very nice fella i can remember now you say hypnotist but i can't remember what happened in the programme but i can remember him. and er she was er the one he because they were on about, in the answers, about him hypnotizing them, one of them was especially. oh, and the, the trip they had was to er the middle east, erm in the desert i didn't see that. oh you didn't see it? ah. oh well er what i was going to say is that er i thought i'd summed the person up that he'd selected and i, i thought oh she i er it's not gonna be easy for him, and it wasn't, you know, she was a bit of a bit of a so and so i think really. full of her own importance, you know? yeah. i often wonder if, when they've selected a person say right, i'll choose number three, when number one goes by and number two goes by afterwards if they think oh you know, no, i would have preferred number two. oh they would, i'm sure a lot of that's done. well do they wonder if they have a, a, a chance of meeting up with them. afterwards. well i heard, i, i wondered about that, and erm i think they must have contact because erm one of them who came back bearing in mind there must be a, a, a, about a three month gap, had had a proposal from one of the persons one of the others. who er she didn't pick. oh. mm. but sometimes you can see ooh that one and that one who just go together and they don't choose each other yeah, yeah. and then when they and you're sitting here going oh choose so and so, you choose him don't you ? yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah but, but from the programme producer's point of view, i should think he, he doesn't want too many that are okay, he wants the er but it would be nice to get yeah yeah, yeah. i mean just lately they seem to they really slang each other don't they? mm, mm. i of er, was it last week erm, yeah it must have been where the the coloured lad yes. cos he was back last night wasn't he? two white lads and a coloured one and er it was a white girl and i often wonder if that's a good idea er whether they should all be the same colour. oh i think so because it must be an awful shock for the girl to go round the screen and they're faced with a coloured although they don't bother so much these days do they? no. she said he wasn't ugly enough didn't she? yeah. but a few well i was gonna say a few weeks ago, it might be longer than that, there was that very large coloured girl that was on that's a few years ago, never mind a few months. no er there was one not so very i'm sure not so ve not, not years ago but it was yo do you there was one very bonny lass and she was on the er, they, they had erm composite programme the other the other week and she was on that again. oh is that where i saw her? maybe. i mean fancy being erm confronted with somebody like like that. and in and actually in that programme it was a nottingham fella who er was confronted with her was it? yeah. so, yeah, she's a real extrovert. and then there's that er one who was a pu that was a little while ago, that was big she was big but she was wasn't coloured was she? no, but she ran a pub or something so she was . somewhere, yes. managed a pub and she was all all over. yeah. but one, one of the coloured chaps where tasha works said he was he'd been to one of these blind dates, he was on but we haven't come across him yet have we? but he only said that a little while ago didn't he? so if there's a three month yes, he might be gap. actually erm barbara took, went with her niece to, for the audition and er what i'm not sure of,a a and barbara got on and her niece didn't, what i'm not sure is whether, when she went down, she was thinking that, of sort of er an audition for herself or whether they approached her because apparently they, they don't get too many of the senior people. oh. no it's, it's not often really that you get a senior in fact barbara was saying to me er wh why don't you er but it's not the thing that i'd want to do. nice to have them now and again. mm did you see erm wendy? no she, i think she was coming in and out cos the car door was open. so you don't know what time heidi's half past four. half past four. oh she's and erm late this week is she? well she was only early was it last week or the week before? whenever she was early because there was a christening erm on and they were using the hall afterwards. and you know the door they go in mm. to er that little side door? well there were all blue and white balloons hanging up in the hall and by the door just these rows and rows of blue balloons and the door opens outwards and wendy was saying how was she going to get the door open without all these balloons going. coming out, yeah. so no doubt it was a boy that was being christened. i would think so, blue, yeah. so they decided that once the christening party was in the hall which was gonna be three o'clock, they didn't stand much chance of erm doing anything. no, so that's why they had it two till three that day. but it's now back to half past two till half past four and whoever's playing the dame arrived just in front of us oh. so he's there. tt what did malcolm say? it was five five weeks, four weeks on friday till half term? mm. four weeks on friday, that's all she's got to yeah sort it out. oh if i go into town perhaps tuesday to get her tape try to get her tape well she said it's in h v m. erm i'll perhaps give wind , what are they called? windblowers a ring and see if they've got for the music. mm. i could actually tomorrow to see if it's in the library couldn't i? mm and then just photocopy it. oh you're not allowed to are you? well they won't know will they? oh well yeah i'd have to bring it home to have it done. breaking the law, isn't it? well i think it's only if you want to do er you know like doing it for some, something or other isn't it? no when used to get music for the women's own choir to do for mothering sunday, she used to say keep quiet where you got the copy from. mm, i think it's when you want a lot. or say if you've got a ten or eleven running off. anyway i'll go in and steal it. we walked past that place didn't we? h v m? mm. we were on our way down to but we weren't actually sure what it was called. mm, so it wouldn't have been any good going in. although you'd of probably recognized it. well i said i thought it was called seriously orchestral. well that's what it is isn't it? mm. were you buying this erm newspaper last week by any chance? oh! why? get to france for a pound. oh yes i saw it on the er box, mm. she's keeping, keep the coupons for malcolm to send off haven't you? you collect er well all you've really gotta do is buy the paper monday to friday collect four coupons is that empty? mm. better move it. collect four coupons and each set of coupons allows you to claim up to four tickets and it was a pound a ticket wasn't it? mm. a pound a ticket, and you could go, there were three routes you could go and any time up to march the twenty eighth oh. and that was your fare from, you could go, dover to calais mm. newhaven to dieppe or dunno what the other one was. way down, was it southampton somewhere?and that was your ferry fare over for the day. so erm we thought we might go for a day didn't we? might do yes, the end of march. he'd, i think he would have liked to have gone the four hour trip over i didn't think you'd like that. well that one was the most restrictive because that you had to go, you could go any time between was it eight and eleven in the morning, but you could only come back either something like quarter to five, quarter to, no quarter to six was it? or quarter to two in the morning, there were only two you could come back on. whereas the dover to calais you can go any time between this time and that time and come back any time between this time and that time. yeah. yeah. but going to dieppe it docks on the quay or whatever is sort of right in the heart of erm the town so once you are off the ferry, you're there. well i suppose it depends what you want to go for. well he, he was asking me which i'd prefer and i said i think you ought to consider vicki not me on the crossing. well if you go if you stay till quarter to one in the morning how can you be sure there's gonna be anything open to to do. well that's it. to do. so therefore if you come back paris nightclub. if you could come back before stripping club. if you come back on the one before you've only got about three and a half hours so you've got four hours on the ferry, three and a half there and then four hours back again haven't you? anyway we'll see what well vicki's not very keen on crossing the water are you? no. so i thought the shorter journey would be better. and if we don't go we've only lost a pound ticket. so we'll see. snow that day. well i think they're going to repeat the offer aren't they? they're supposed to be doing it again. well we, at the erm school play we were talking to, who did you say, mr ? mm. and he was telling, you know erm it was the er christmas thing, he was t saying he'd been to france on a cheap ticket hadn't he? through the daily ma oh express. the express wasn't it? or the mail? daily express. it was one of the better papers. i mean the sun is absolutely i mean i did tr have a go at reading the first one and i thought well i can't read this trash any longer, think i read two pages. yes what did he, how much did it cost him? fifteen pounds did he say? they had, they went for the weekend didn't they? no not for the, i don't think they went for the day. think it was. was it? thought he said it was a day. but they, they sailed sort of first thing in the morning and didn't come back till last thing at night. night. thought it was only a day, and they were talking to somebody else on the ferry who said they did this trip every year didn't they? and what good value it was, it was only costing them hundred and well i really can't remember the figures. oh i thought he said a hundred and something pounds didn't he? mm. and it had cost them about fifteen or something. mr said he didn't have the heart to tell them how, you might think it's good value but he didn't when he'd only paid fifteen pounds fifty a ticket. have you got any more ideas for holidays or? not erm i've sort of got several things that i'd like to do in your mind that you'd like to do. i'm ever so disappointed that i've not been to yugoslavia, i wanted to go to dubrovnik, you know, it's been on the sort of list but i've never got round to it. it's a bit late now till things are sorted out. yeah i'm afraid afraid so, and of course it's been damaged anyway now. egypt er is on my list. oh up the nile? yeah. mind you don't get in with the carry on crew. erm yes there er, there are i was talking to er tt do you know june ? she's she's about my age i should think and she sometimes, once a month she does the coffee wears glasses i'd perhaps recognize, yes tell by anyw anyway erm i was talking to her on the bus not too long ago and, i don't know how it came up but she was talking about egypt, and er she'd been apparently oh some a year or two back cos she did a, an evening course on egyptology and she went through that, but she was telling me about a friend or friends of hers who'd been er and told me about the trip. erm then she put, he had done a newsletter to his friends which is beautifully done er and had sent her one and so she put it through my door so it was quite interesting. on that holiday they er they'd also been to cairo as well as, and i mean some of the erm trips erm are they go to luxor and you board a erm er the ship from luxor to aswan and you don't get to cairo and i think if you're going to egypt you really want to go to cairo as well as. oh yes, certainly. er you know i, i, it's, it's on my list. it's mulling around up there. now if you want to know what i'd like, which holiday i'd like and i probably will never do it, mind you i ne i need the person to go with because definitely you need a person to go with, i'd love to go on the orient express. you know i was wai i thought oh i wonder if it'll be the orient express, yeah. mm on the train. but er yeah erm but you er but it's so expensive erm to do it properly mm. er to go right the way through to venice and you've got to stay at venice for at least a couple of days so oh and it, er, i think er, you're talking about two thousand at least just for that four days, you know? mm. so do that when we go, we shan't go that way to venice when we go shall we? so it's the sort of thing where if somebody said to me right you can have whatever holiday you like no, no, no, no you could only do that, i want you to go on the orient express, yes. if they said you can go anywhere you like it would, that would cause i would, i would have difficulty deciding. be debating which yeah. yeah i've got another trip which i saw on telly, again which i shall never do i think, er which sounded pretty good, you flew, flew to er oh pardon me. calgary, took a train over the rockies to vancouver and then a cruise ship up to alaska and, and back via vancouver and you saw the erm ice floes er dropping off and er er seals and that, dolphins and that and it looked pretty good. but then you flew back from calgary i think or it may have been vancouver. now that was er that looked worthwhile. that was about fifteen hundred two or three years ago so that'll be two thousand at least. a lot of money when you think it's just for, a holiday's just for, you know, short times. yeah, yeah. yes i mean er when i s er you know when i was on the q e two and was chatting with a fella and er he, they'd been, he'd obviously been cruising before and was on this cruise and er they were going on the er another cunard ship a few months later, and it turned out that he was a hotelier who'd bought a hotel in swanage some years ago, i think he'd had about seven bedrooms when he bought it and he gradually extended it, i forget how many he did tell me, and then he had a bit of a heart er attack and er his doctor told him to, you know, well if i were you i'd just pack in your job which he did and that was about fifteen years ago he was i dunno if he was eighty or he was approaching eighty if he wasn't and was in pretty good form, he was dancing, and er, you know, i mean there money's no object. er the er the lady he was a widower and his, er his f er he was with a lady who was a widow and erm i know for a fact that she'd not spent a penny, she hadn't p you know for a you know, of the trip or, or he just wouldn't let her, i mean, i mean you, you've got to have some money haven't you to to keep to keep going like that? hmm. well i'll have to keep doing these pools. that's right. well i keep sending these coupons off that come through the door en entering competitions but i don't get anything . how are you? i'm alright. good. have we got a physio in? no. no ! er not, it's not serious, i, i'd just like some independent er er info, you know? yes, yes. mm. er no we often don't have anybody in er physio. does your hand hurt? are you not happy about it? well i still it's still solid isn't it? i still, i s it's still swollen and i still haven't got my full grip, i'm seeing the surgeon again today mm. but er i'm having physio er privately you know on, on the thing mm. but i'm, i'm rapidly running out of the allowance erm she appears to be satisfied right. but obviously i, i'd like somebody else's opinion really yes, yes. and i'm seeing the surgeon today and erm and i met somebody the other day who'd had it done and his fingers weren't affected, you know, so i mean it's just the luck of the draw i think. however i thought well i'm, i'm er mind you it does look better than when i saw it last. oh yes it is. isn't it? oh it is, it is, oh it is yeah it's improving, yeah. it's not er although the, the inflammation it was not good at the weekend. oh. perhaps you're doing too much fred and not resting it. say again? you're doing too much, you're not resting it. well no i'm not i mean this is it erm you don't know er how much to do no. and how much not to do really. oh. oh right hope the surgeon might be able to provide you with mm well i, i mean really i want him to tell me i mean she implies that i'm gonna get, you know, back fully back to normal but i i'm beginning to wonder myself mm. er i, i mean i really can't doubt her but erm, you know, you, how you have hunches. yeah. i feel as though i'm on a plateau at the moment although sh sh when i said that she said well i it is getting better so the there's a physio. trish i've got a patient for you trish if you've got five minutes to spare please. oh dear. er he's ever such a nice patient though it's not serious. oh great! he's ever such a nice patient. you didn't have the pleasure of meeting him when he used to work here. this is fred, he used to, he used to work in hello. contracture. is that what you've got? opera no, i've had it. he's had an operation. mm. no no, i won't say that. operation the sixth of december on the little finger er and my other fingers swelled up mm. and are still not down. really what i'm wanting you to tell me is how normal is that and to be honest i'm not, i erm not quite sure really. i mean have, have you been back to, to, to clinic following oh yeah yeah yeah. well i had it done on the insurance you know right yeah. so i'm seeing the surgeon again today are you? you but of course he's the one who's done it mm. so even if he sort of made a, a bodge, i'm not suggesting he has he's not likely to, to say yes that's because of that. so is the finger better then? i mean well erm it, oh well i mean it is better in as much as it was sticking out like that mm. and i can whereas i couldn't get a glove on now i can now. right. i haven't got all that much movement. yeah. well you know i mean it's not too bad i suppose. no i'd just be, i mean i must admit i've, i've not really seen one for years and years and years. you get quite sort of specialized. i think yeah quite. undoubtedly i think you need to ask him, you know, that erm just say to him that you're very concerned about the fingers yeah, yeah. and, you know, what can, what can do about it. now the physio, i'm i'm having the, i'm having physio yeah. and i was just saying to yvonne er i'm rapidly running out of my physio allowance, you know, because of the amount that yes, yeah, yeah perhaps you're not she's doing erm and she seems to imply that er it will get back to normal but, you know, i i just, i'm not er happy about that myself. well i would have thought so but really erm i think you just need to sort of i, i, i mean it really has been swollen and er inflamed so it's down a bit? oh yes. yeah. oh yes, yes yes yes. oh yes and i had er pressure sores, you know? mm. yeah, no i think you just need to be frank with him and you know say you're happy about the finger, fine, but just, you know, i'm more concerned about these yeah. because these were okay right than, than this. yeah, well no i would be direct with him and say, you know yeah. you're really worried about these yeah. and, and just see, sort of see what, what he says really mm. and if you're having physio that's, that's good but like you say no i mean i, i don't know how much. it, the bill was hundred and thirty eight quid last month and it'll be more than that this month and i think my yearly allowance is about three hundred, you know, so i'm rapidly running out. anyway thanks for your, no no sorry i can't really sort of say i must admit i couldn't really see why they should be like that really cos i mean it is a bit puzzling cos if they've only just done anything, they've only been tampering with this finger so the, the, the the other thing er i, i have the feeling in this finger of, not pins and needles, but just a slight difference he's obviously cut some nerves i should imagine. but er you know i'm, as i say, i'm more concerned about those how annoying. but i must admit i haven't seen an i haven't seen, you know it's years well it'll be years you see what what i'm up against is, i mean the physio who, who, i mean she's private of course mm. she is one wanting er referrals from mr so she's not going to say oh well you know there's something wrong there, you know? mm. is she? no. you see. er er and er i'm not saying that there is necessarily, but even if there was she's not going to because she wants to preserve her, her referrals. don't want me well i'd just say you're really worried about these fingers yeah. and that, you know,and you just say, you know you know, what, what are you gonna do about this yeah. you know, should it, should it actually be like yeah. then if you get some answers then you can always say to him well this is what, you know, this is what yeah well i mean i saw him what, either a fortnight or three weeks ago, three, probably about three weeks, and at that stage my plaster that i'd had on after the er op had only been off perhaps a fortnight, it was christmas intervening you see, so he had every sort of right to say, you know, oh well yeah it should be okay, yeah. think the only thing you can do is as i say be honest and say that, you know, you're very worried about your fingers yeah, yeah. i know it's not a lot of help but erm no well you, you i'm, but i wouldn't, i wouldn't be able to say whether it was or not so yeah, yeah, well that, that's fine, that's all i wanted to know, i'm pleased you popped in,i it sorry yes but i it's sort of erm even if it's only to give you the confidence you know yeah. to sort of yeah. it's awful i , i'm the same if i'm going to see a doctor, i think ooh well when you've got you forget what you were going to ask yes but when you've been, when you've been in the work as i have over many years with doctors, i was a mental welfare officer so i mean i know er, you know, you can be fobbed off. that's right. no go for it. right. well i hope it is but they're not good are they? well if that,th yes i'm, yeah, yeah i mean i can drive but that's it? er but i haven't got, i haven't got a grip. thanks very much. get sorted out thanks. cheers. okay, bye. oh well that was useful. is eileen in? yeah. could i get i'd like to get an irish accent on the where would she be? i'll er go and counsel yvonne where she is and see if she's tell her, yes, yes. they said to me now do you know anybody who's got a clear accent or anything like that so i thought yes, i'll er, i'll, i'll pop in. well are you making me a coffee then? oh yeah, yeah do you want to read that? can you read? yeah. it's er improving. oh it is. it's taking it's time though isn't it? yes it's, oh look at that, it's gone purple. yeah. are you using it? i'm doing my best. you should bring it down like that. oh! ah! i, i know! that's where it should be. yes, look, yes. i wish i could. yeah, john's got one. i wish i could. he cut his. he got hurt in an accident. yeah? and th th th the tendons had to be brought together somehow is it? yeah er do does then th they go back. has he got his grip back? er no, not altogether oh. but i mean his, his, his was an accident. yeah. yeah. well i think, i think this is he, he an accident actually. he couldn't er er you know yeah. it was just like that. yeah. yeah well i can't, i can't get any further than that. no. well, well you, you might be able to do though. don't you go for physio? i do. er i was saying that but do you do you practise it at home? i do indeed. you wanna get, get the mop going fred. start mopping. get your grip on it. see you'll get is there anybody else on the scene? no, nobody at all. well i, i, you know, i have my friends, you know. i'm not without friends. you didn't fancy doreen then? has she replaced somebody? temp, yeah oh, temp. when you were here. yeah. yeah. yeah. yeah. did doreen discover ? no, oh isn't she up there? oh yes fred, any time, come on oh dear . she it is leap year eileen but there's no need to go mad. oh dear. you don't beat about the bush do you? no! no, no. subtle. very subtle. am i coming in or are you bringing it? i'll bring them, you i'll just bring your microphone in. have you ? pardon? you're tap dance. i can tap, no i can ballroom dance though. no, different sort of thing altogether. it looks as though she's doing scottish dancing, do you do scottish dancing? no. or the irish jig. can you do the irish jig? yeah. are, are you bringing it then? how did the er christmas do go? er a alright i think fred, i didn't go position it was in but erm well margaret said she enjoyed it but she said it wasn't the music was too loud. oh i'm glad i wasn't there then. you couldn't have a discussion yeah well that's why i didn't go before. that's why i, that's why i didn't go and that was why it was i mean i like dancing and music but i like to have a chat with, i can't, i can't be bothered if i can't chat properly because you can't hear yourself she says er whoops she says do you mean it? no i mean there is a limit where? below which i age-wise below which i sh there's no such thing as a limit with age. there is. twenty years is nothing now is it? twenty, she's more than she's more than twenty years younger than me. right. okay. okay right. yes, okay, bye a dolly bird well i've had them in my time as you know. have you fred? you've had them in your time, yeah. i know you have. erm information on the door i'll tell you what it is, sandwiches. sandwiches? you can now ring up, save your legs going to oh can you? this, oh here? yes. who's doing this? i don't know, it just came through the post this morning. oh that's a good idea isn't it? mm. i wonder if it's that one up beside asda because when i've gone in before she's said to me you know if you rang them through i'd have them ready for you or oh. could be. so it could possibly be that one. that one just where the warehouse is. yeah. is it ? no it's not oh. oh isn't, isn't, isn't she a isn't she a she, she's very subtle she's eileen isn't she ? she's really subtle, yes. wouldn't want you any other way eileen, we like you to be subtle. is ronnie here? is ronnie here? i don't know. is ronnie here? i've only just come in. what have you been doing to him? too right! we both well he c it took him all morning, how long would it have taken me? taken my morning's away wouldn't it? yeah. he had his group in on tuesday and he left all the pots out in the kitchen yeah and er never washed them up, i know. he could never wash a cup up because they were all on the draining board. they were everywhere, and the pots out on the side as well. yeah. so i er when i said it to him, on top i made a good job i says. so that i know. oh really, you know? i thought to myself you can do the cookers, i'm not shifting it. that's why i did the so fred you've ?where are you going now? home. have you done your shopping? no i've come in for physio actually. i've just been to the physio before i came here. and i've seen trish, fortunately, i was hoping one of the physios would be in yeah. so had the opportunity of having a chat with her. did she give you a well yes er she really confirmed er she seemed as concerned as i was didn't she? i thought so fred, yes. yeah. right i'm gonna make a drink, does everyone want one? yeah thank you. it's time i was away fred. what time do you finish? quarter past. do you really? yeah. eleven, eileen. oh dear oh dear. why do fall for it every time i'm here? i do, i do i'm here at ten past seven most mornings now. have to wait twenty five to eight before he'd come in, how he was coming here at that time i don't know. on top of you, especially yvonne when she's on this week. and how's, and how's, how ? it's finished. it's finished. what, the whole thing's finished? yeah. has it really? oh i, i don't know whether you can answer this one, do you know if angela is still at metropolitan housing? you don't, no, i don't suppose you would, have to ask martin. why do you want to get a house off her? yes they er they did take avenue over, there were some negotiations could of. oh. they slept overnight and left the place in a mess. it's in the sort of a housing trust, i can't remember what it is well metropolitan. er th actually it's angela who used to, that's what reminded me, angela , i think it's metropolitan did she used to come to the housing, to the meetings? she i she did. oh well it's not that name now fred. oh. i can't remember her name but it's not angela oh. the er the lady that comes to the meetings cos i've been going to them. oh. but er, no there's no, there's no more training or anything done there. but it was such a lot and we used to yeah, yeah. oh it was, i mean well right from the start it was, it was not the most sensible place to er have a group erm no. i mean to start as a group home, well i mean it, of all the places, a it's not like an ordinary home no. too big yes, that's right. and b erm the area in which it was placed is not good at all. that's right. see m er martin tried to get it used as people use it for meeting rooms and things but er you see you can't park either can you? no, no. and people wanted to be near a park. erm erm erm but,yeah and people er have great areas of that taken. i'll see you then. no i w are you, you do don't suppose you're, well still i can use my pass can't i? yeah. are you, are you going down? yeah. i, i'll well what about this, i, i, will you pick this up later? yvonne will i'm not gonna let yvonne not gonna let yvonne i'm not gonna let yvonne touch it, i'm gonna let the cleaner deal with it when she comes in. right see you then. yeah, hope you get on alright with mr okay thanks. tarrah. bye. like, who was it who reckoned there was a corner on a boat? well you reckoned there weren't a corner on a boat. there ain't. there is ! oh shut up! ach, you do get corners on boats! no. boats are shaped like a bloody rugby ball shape type no they ain't. one end is and the other one ain't, and it was a yacht and a yacht, they got little rooms in or something cos innit? oh that,th the rooms are shaped ni , like to the size of the boat, you nonce!! let's ask your mum if there's, if there's any corners on a boat. of course there ain't. just ask your mum that. yeah. i bet she'll probably side with you. but, i, i know for a fact there ain't. you don't know. fucking hell! bollocks pal! how many, many corners in a boat? they're shaped like rugby balls! shaped like rugby balls. don't start! they ain't shaped like rugby balls. goes round like this and then it goes square at the back. they're not square at the back! do you er, have you got any whatsername there? what? brochures. brochures? no i haven't. then you see a boat and . oh bollocks brother! there, there are, ships. oh ships, kev, but i'm talking about boats. well a boat is, a ship is a boat you prat! no it ain't, a ship's a big fucker! and a boat's a little fucker! yeah. that ain't shaped like a rugby ball. that ain't, that ain't, that ain't kev they do that ain't, that ain't, that ain't they're all, they're ships kev. that ain't. kev, they are ships. they're ships. that's a fucking weird ship ! i wouldn't sail in it. don't you think it's a fucking ? yeah, you don't, you don't sail in ships anyway. that is not shaped like a rugby ball. er, and you don't get seagulls swim er, swimming in the sea. yes you do. yes you do, you dill! why do you think they're called seagulls kev ? der er! you don't get seagulls seagulls do swim kev. they don't swim. they do swim. they they jump into, they dive into the water. yeah, they fly. and they do swim cos they've got the feet for it. they don't yeah right. they don't fly in the water pete. they do. flying in the water. no. al , alright kev. yeah. flying in the water. alright mum? water seagulls fly in apparently because erm . yeah. they go in the ship you dick ! dick arse. they . well why is there oh, a load of alright bollocks. alright, so they draw fish on the side of the fucking ships! if you say draw it wrong, who cares? if there weren't then just go home. go home . do you think so? erm, now i am home so sod off! go to bed then! i don't wanna go to bed . ask silko. yeah. he's only a fucking newsreader. that's trevor macdonald . excuse me. this ain't . a bunny. he's black though. i know. no, d'ya know what he says after his news speech? yeah. let's get a coffee d'ya now. nah. do you wanna erm go for a quick one before it closes. yeah. before it closes. how do you know? they said it. they faxed it, i t n faxed it just to the big breakfast. they said it. did you never know about your mind . you are. what you doing? what are you doing now? well you said i could keep it. . stop messing around. shut up bamber! shut up kevin. no i won't shut up! yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ! what you doing? oh you're not doing that silly thing? told me to turn it down. oh what about looks like arthur's scoring in one and i think his brother scored another. and hi , his brother could score again. and he does. turn it up a little bit more. seagulls don't swim. it's like saying puffins don't swim. it's like thinking fish don't swim. a superb effort! he does a little dummy . flies in the water. penguins don't. they do fly in the water. it does fly in the water. it ain't got a to fly in the water. it has. it ain't got them under the water. it's just got a picture of water, and they're next to it. so why is the water right behind them then? if there was really be water on top of them. , no shut up! shut up! biggest fucking thing. let's have a look at it kev. alright. da, da da da da da da da da ah ah ah ah ! oh! what's this little fella. gonna be scared now. ah! a c milan! he's the turkish champion . what happens if they went one nil up? they, they drew it. take a, take a shot now. ! on penalties. penalties! this is in turkey. i reckon if me and you , get the team playing each other get both, get two away goals, whatever, take it into extra time right, we both get a goal each and go, imagine going to penalties or something. it's a argentina match or something. get one put in together. no le , make it, don't make him score in extra time just yeah, make, also make leave it. one put them in together. yeah, shall we try that? yeah. don't you wanna know your child . so here he comes, looks as if we're . i just thought of something, what happens i don't re , i don't think so. cos when you're . oh that's my microphone. who was it who first said that they'd witnessed something? yeah. what? well you not, you liked the but erm no i never. you did. no i never. it was you or peter. who was this? no it wasn't. it weren't me. it was either you or peter. it weren't me. you then. no it weren't me. it weren't me, i never played . do , don't get , don't get me into this. oh! i dunno where he is. it weren't me. can you place a shot? turn that up! yes. please! probably go back stop. i can score your point now. no, no, that's that thing called . bull boy back stop. you're playing this. bollocks! you're a blue oyster in disguise. you're a blue boy it's meant to be a tenner. oh. nine two on aggregate. ah! what a tenner between ya? no, tenner for each. yeah. it's the spirit! no, if you only you had a fart coming. he just went or it sounds like. pa. it sounded, a little breather. pa. okay, you was all quiet until you went no, kev, no. i didn't go raargh aargh! well i don't think i did so yes you did. no i never. yes you did. no i never. you did. no. you did. no. you did. no. you did. no. you did. no. look, you've been repeating yourself again. yeah, so are you. no i ain't. yeah. i di , i ain't repeating yourself. did, you did. you did! i ain't repeating yourself. so i done alright. ha ha! so funny! what's he got playing like this. rumbled it. seven eight you've done it again . do him you wanker! joe or something. i know. half way down. sam's brother. sam's there. if sam came up to you and you ge your mil , you had millwall and sam right, rips it off right, ripped it to pieces and that, started burning it, and he give you a wimbledon shirt in return what would you do? probably do the same to his. mm. what, then you'd give him a millwall shirt? i'd give it back. i got a and my dad was going i'd kill him! your dad'd kill him and all. i know. i wouldn't. poor old bobby. he's always had to find a new friend, he don't trust me. a good friend, ah! pass! i wanna be your friend. he for a lunch. far from a friend. i wanna get you expelled. bollocks! paul . joss ran into the wind. oh shot! ha! oh a excellent boot, enough far . someone should tell joey. , but someone's already told him. oh sorry, i'm on the . whoever listens to this your mum's like fish and chips, a come slap-up. good goal. i reckon those kids are getting hooray!. oh it's on there. . oh it's too smelly at millwall. hey. i says at , arsenal !, it's not against fanny and chelsea . who's this fanny and chelsea ? oh yeah, cos i know it's wonderful . birmingham polytechnic offer all their facilities absolutely free of charge to us so get yourself down in the entertainment bar in aston. er make full use of all their fields as well as their indoor gyms, leisure centre, swimming pool etcetera. birmingham university don't let us use their stuff free of charge. er it's thirty six pound a year to be a member there but if you are a keen sportsman their facilities are well worth using because it's a very very good sports centre indeed. aston university haven't got an awful lot of good stuff in the way of indoor facilities. they've got a good seven a side outdoor astroturf pitch which we can hire fairly cheaply. but er i wouldn't recommend that too highly . sporting teams, you all look a sporting bunch to me specially that chubby chap there in the middle er i've got contacts with not only all the local football, rugby, cricket clubs etcetera, but also the teams that sort of how do i put this represent people in er the city on, on a, a good sporting level, i e mosely rugby club, aston villa football club, so whatever your standard is in any sport come and see me and i shall sort out exactly what you want. of course the college has its own teams as well. er football, rugby basketball are popular ones. er any team that you do want to join, there is also a team available. if you actually want to set up the society yourself, find ten little friends, come along, ten people giving the number you need to form a society one pound each for membership, i shall give you all the er relevant data and you can start up your side in whatever it be as long as it doesn't contravene union policy on sexism, racism etcetera. and i'm sure you wouldn't. er that's briefly enough on sport, i'm gonna move on to entertainment facilities now. the bar, the guild bar downstairs currently not open at the moment i grant you, but hopefully, with a bit of luck, tonight is the grand opening tonight. and what a wonderful place, what more can be said about the bar? free with your guild card which you will carry with you everywhere i know, cheap beer, brilliant atmosphere, incredibly good djs erm we're always looking for people to come along and have a go so if you wanna put your name down you can have a saturday night and spin those wheels. excellent atmosphere, friendly barmen he's alright your friend there. he's just a bit grumpy, he's a bit grumpy at times, excellent barmen er i'm usually down there s sampling the, the diet coke or some such wondrous thing like that. er and you will definitely get to know lots of people down there and it's a good focal point for the guild. i must point out about isn't just the guild a lot of people think it is but it is a good focal point to find out what's going on and meet people. er on a slightly bigger scale entertainment again as we're only a small college, we do tend to liaise with the bigger education establishment in the city, i e birmingham university, central england university formerly birmingham polytechnic and aston university. they have fairly regularly staged, what you might call bigger bands who play the university circuit as such and they're always, you know, dying for people to come along so there'll,th there'll be lists published at what time, what events are on at these places if you wanna go and do that and if you wanna go to the top notch bands, birmingham's a good venue for that with the leisure centre, the m i a the n e c, the k g b etcetera etcetera all that stuff there so there's always plenty to do, don't, don't feel restricted just cos we're in er the middle of the city centre in this college and there doesn't seem a lot to do, there's a lot going on. a free legal service is offered by the guild. it's a, a firm of city centre solicitors, they're very very good indeed er i recommend it thoroughly. it er doesn't have to be a problem related to college, any problem you've got er come and see me, it's as well to take advantage of it cos those of you who have been involved in legal wranglings before will it's quite an expensive business, so i mean you'll have to come and see me about that because it's fairly confidential so but they are very very good. er what else can i go on about? representation. now there's a long word for you. erm my job, i, i'm employed by the union of students which you have all paid your subscription to so therefore, in effect, you're all my bosses. i'm here to represent you basically as, as your voice with any problem you have, as i mentioned at the beginning. a problem is a, a lecture, a lecturer, other students, anything of the college er i'm the person who takes your voice. now you're you're welcome to register a complaint yourself but i, i'm a representative on the board of governors, the academic board committee etcetera etcetera so i can get these points right up where they belong. i can also, if i erm come across the same problem a few times i could hopefully work on that and then probably eradicate altogether. so do come and see me if it's a problem you've got that you think needs sorting out. er again on the national level, if you think there's a, a campaign you wanna be involved in or wanna get started i'll put that on to the area n u s who will, if it's a credible case, will put it forward to the national executive. but i'm really the person to come and see and i liaise with all these bodies as such. the annual general meeting our a g m is next week where, where we, we elect all the officers, the guild officers, who will serve with me, and help me on the forthcoming year. there are eight positions up for grabs which are vice president, sports officer, entertainments officer publicity officer, welfare officer, women's officer and minorities and overseas officer. if you're interested in standing for any of those or wanna put someone forward to stand for one of those, come to the elections in room six two three, six two four friday the twenty sixth at two fifteen twenty third, i'm sorry, at two fifteen and er not only will you get all the, the general info about what i've done so far this year, what i intend to do, what next year's budget's going to be etcetera, that's when those elections are actually held. so do come along to that. i'll leave it at the moment, i know you've now got a very busy day ahead of you lectures to attend and such things like that but er has anybody got a question or two they'd like to ask me concerning anything? don't all rush at once. this man here. what's your question sir? do the guild offer a typing services? not free of charge. there are, though, numerous students on certain of the third year and degree courses who are trying to earn a little extra income shall i put it and far from the majority of traditional methods they are to do it legally and set up little typewriting agencies etcetera and if you keep your eye on the notice boards you'll see various . for instance, you know, contact carol h n d three f er for typing servi they're not free,th they're dirt cheap, about twenty p a page for a four. that's quite a bargain. why, don't you like typing? no. rugby. no. where can you play rugby? i shall, shall get in touch with mosely rugby club for you. thank you. it's taken me long enough god knows but i'll get in touch with them for oh dear i'll get in touch with them for you. round the corner no doubt i'm sure. indeed. any other questions ladies and gentlemen? okey-dokey. . a boring society. we haven't got one of those. no i'm only joking. erm thank you very indeed for your time boys, girls, ladies and gentleman. er i shall let you get on to your lectures or what other pursuits you have and no doubt see you around. any problem you've got do come and see me. thank you very much indeed. get this sorted out. it tends to stick on, it's never done that, i don't think, yet. yeah. now, have you had a chance to look at anything since last time? i haven't and i've i've meant to, but ah. you know i've been like mad mad busy w one thing and another. yeah. oh i know what it's like . even of an evening. well mainly cos of me mum of an evening, cos she's not been too good, so i've been up and down . oh isn't she? yeah. yeah it's erm can't seem to get a chance. it's really i mean i want to yeah. to get i and do some of this and do these yeah. problems, yeah. it's getting the time to do it. but you need to be mm. when we cover something in the lesson, you need to go over it yourself, yeah. work out the exercises in it, erm maybe get a little bit stuck, sort it out yourself, and then think, oh yeah yeah. i know i see how you do it. and maybe if you're totally stuck, then i can go through it again next time, but yeah. it's really the more you do mm. on your own. because when it well comes to the exam you're gonna be on your own . yeah. i'll have i mean i'm having er a weekend in lytham so i might er take stuff up with me, you know for for the odd yeah. revising. kids are on the beach and that. so i can work i i can still work through on these ones. okay. you happy with the trig then? erm yeah i'd i'd say it's trig and geometry and the bearings, using trig with the bearings is the yeah. thing that i need to okay. cos i know they're the things that seem to okay. have the big marks on. take a take a bearing on me then, if north is that window. erm north's that window, right yeah, don't forget , go yeah. clockwise even though it means coming the long way round yeah. they put it on every question and they all come out of the exam and they say, oh it was fifty degrees wa no, it was all the way, it was three hundred and ten. oh. there goes the marks on that one. yeah. so if you remember nothing else, remember that one. yeah. to make sure you go clockwise. okay, have you come across anything else that you've i suppose you haven't had, you haven't been coming across much at all. no. i mean i had act i wanted to er hopefully have a fortnight off before the exam, to revise, but the way this work' looking, i don't what i'm going . mm. i'm definitely gonna take a few days off, but i wanted yeah. to get into it properly. you see i've not really got the same trouble with english, because well english is a written thing isn't it, yeah, and you've been doing that for many many years, english yeah. haven't you? yeah. erm right so right. so you're okay on graphs, because there's usually a question on graphs which er if you you you know if you're okay on them, pretty easy marks? erm not too bad, i mean we've done a the last thing i done at at the night school, was a historogram. okay. yeah. is that is that the right name for it? hist hist histogram. yeah. statistics. erm there's a lot of us starting okay, what does that mean then? well i i worked out at school well actually the teacher worked out . is is that . erm no only partly finished, it would have okay. gone to about here. what's yeah. right. what's the main thing missing from it at the moment? erm well apart from like, the next few columns? mm. the bit they give you marks for. er what's what's this measuring up here? oh right, that's erm and what's that measuring along there. i can't remember. right. now if you do that in real life yeah. erm you're doing a perhaps you're doing a histogram of some jobs that you've been doing, mm. to see which ones are giving you the good profits,sort of thing . yeah. this this was a weight. right. weights and measures. yeah, it can be almost anything, but if mm. you haven't marked on what it is, erm and then you come make get some interruptions, which you're going to do, and you yeah. come back to it next week, mm. yeah, what is that? what was this? and it's so one of the first thing to do is to get your axes marked so that when you're putting stuff in, you know which is which. cos you can put these the other way up. yeah. you know, with almost any graph, you can put them whichever way up you like. so i didn't do that one. no. decide on suitable scale first. right. and watch out with the scale on these, on histograms, and on any graphs because, what happens i mean i was watching somebody do this a couple of days ago. they're marking off along here, erm every square is two, say, mhm. and they go, two, four, six, eight, twelve mm er two, four, six,f around ten mm. is where most people go wrong. two, four, six, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen yeah. and and it's it's rubbish then, it's rubbish because the scale doesn't mean anything. one part of the scale it's double, and the other part it's not. yeah. and all the results come out all wrong. and it's so s i mean it doesn't need a lo any mathematical skill at all really. mm. it's just a question of you know, marking off every second square. but you'd be surprised how many people don't. yeah. they get it wrong. cos it is a boring thing. and you stop concentrating, mm. get it wrong. yeah. so erm mark your axes, work out what your scale is going to be, to fit it all on, i mean that that looks like a nice fit. mm. just gone on and a little bit left over. that's fine. erm if it'd all been down here, you could think, oh well i can make it twice that, take it out to about here. yeah. okay. that looks fine, a good fit. what about erm graphs of functions. erm i think we'd better have a look at equations actually. i've done some now where is it? i've done some functions. right. functions. yeah. one function er that that yo you're given a function, right. you're told that that particular function is equal to that. mm. and then they ask you to find the function, and do something with it, you have to use that function there, you have to use that in it. mm. well there's a definition of a function there. yeah. what's a function? er a function is is a set a set sum that you're given. a function of a number. mm. er as a end result that number, that's a function but you have to do something with it. er mm. tell me some of the things that happen when you're you're working out a function, what would what would be the the overall picture if someone was going to work out a function? erm what would you well you given the function. you're given a function, okay, whatever that is. mm. it might be a bit like a rabbit or something, it's a function, right. and what would you do with it? er i'd store it and use it with whatever i'm asked to use it with. so you'd be asked to use it with something. you'd be given some input. mm. okay, what would you do with that input? i'd either, plus it, multiply it, divide it. so you'd do some mathematical operations on it. mm. and is that it or either that would that produce an would that produce anything? it'd produce a different answer. and it gives an answer, an output, mm. okay. so the input comes in, the function, you do something with it, mm. and you get an output. so that's a sort of overall picture of a function. and what's going inside the function? can it be anything, or what? pretty much it can be anything, it could be in brackets, it could be a minus in brackets, mhm. okay, i'll give you a i'll give you a number . and erm three hundred and sixty. yeah. right. you give me all its factors. or a few factors, give me some factors. er erm well er twenty, okay yeah. five, yeah. erm ten, okay. now is that a function? mm? is that a function, what you're doing? i give you a number and you give me some other numbers that are tied up with it in some way. is that a function? not sure. possibly. right. it's not. yeah. okay. what does your what does this say, for a function? when you take a number, follow a set of instructions, and end up with end up with what? er you'd end up with end up with one answer. on answer. mhm. if you end up with more than one answer, then it's not a function. yeah. okay, so that's the that's the big thing about it. it's an input, a set of rules to follow, that will guarantee, that you get one output. mhm. okay, erm so suppose i ask you to square the number. whatever number i give you, you multiply mm. it by itself. okay? three? nine. minus four? minus twelve. twelve. erm yeah, four fours? sixteen. okay so it's sixteen. right so if i give you minus four, you give me plus sixteen. yeah because it's multiplied. right. yeah. plus four? erm what would you give me? er sixteen. yeah. yeah. okay. is that a function? yeah. yeah. cos you're following the instructions, and you're giving me one answer. mhm. now you've given me the same answer for two different inputs, but that's okay. that's fine . that's still a function. but if you're giving me different inputs, different outputs for for one input, then that's not a function. mhm. so if i say, what's the square root of sixteen? and i said four. you could say, well it's either four or minus four, which one do you want? yeah. two answers, so that's not a function. if i say, well you'll give me the only ever give me the negative version of the square root, so if i give you sixteen, you give me minus four. if i give you nine, you give me? er minus three. right that's a function. mm. there's only ever one answer. or i could have been a bit less awkward, and said, you just give me the positive one. mm. the plus four or the yeah. the plus three. that would be a function, but a function, there's only one answer to it. thought of as a a recipe, for any number. okay erm the input need not be a number, it can be all sorts of funny things. mm. and you get one funny thing as the answer. but we can, at this level, we can restrict it to numbers. yeah. erm it's a few xs in there and there. right now. went down to like this kind of stuff here. right. twelve over three and okay. now the notation, do you understand the notation? where's the notation? two types of notation it gives here. a and b. yeah well erm they're basically different functions different questions . erm those are the same function. but he's given it to you in two different types of notation, and you need to know both. so w how would you read this first on? x squared plus four you haven't read the first bit though. oh. function x in brackets mm. so that x, whatever you use it with, has to be x squared plus four. mm. okay how would you read this one? and that one is written out, just a different way. that's got the two dots. yeah. right. but he normally sticks to brackets rather than, he's got x is it x squared plus four, it's exactly the same. mm. he's just wrote it out different. he's used the two dots right. okay. and this nota this notation, is mapping notation, because amongst other things, a function is a special case of a mapping. we won't go into mm. mappings, but you can have they're very often non mathematical. mhm. erm you have four types of matt of mapping. and two of those types er you can they can possible be functions. mm. so this is read,a function f, such that the double dot is just read as, such that,a function f such that x maps to x squared plus four . mm. so that any x any number you give to me, you give me x, i'll g say if i'm the function, if you give me x as the input, i'll give you x squared plus four. mhm. you give me three, as the input, i'll give you three plus four. okay. so if you gave me six as the input, what would i do with it? six squared plus four. okay, and this is in function notation. mhm. where that is what the answer is, f of x. mhm. f of x is the answer. f of x is what f has done to x. yeah. someone gave it x, as its input, and it gave you, as an answer, f of x. mhm. and f of x in this case will be x squared plus four. exactly the same mechanism , mhm. the same rules for that. it's a different notation and you mm. do need to know both. both of them mean, take a number, square it and add four. and that's your answer. okay? mhm. when you find an answer for the function, at a particular number, erm i would it's called the evaluation of the function. right. and we'll call it the and we'd have said and you find you find the value of the function, for a particular number, a particular input, a particular value of x. and that's evaluating function. finding the value of the function. given that f of x is x squared plus four, work out f of two. mhm. that's two times two is four plus four. okay. and all of these. f of nought. that's er nought squared plus four is four. okay. right. now gets interesting, and you need to know what the notation is, when you've got more than one function. mm. right? yeah. so this is where you sort of sort out if you really know what's going on. three functions. find f of this, g of that, h of that. and you won't have any problem with that. mhm. okay is that okay? these are them there. let's have a quick look. erm so on one, a, b and c this is this is one. right. there. there okay. erm f worked out at a half. problems one. oh. f of five? f of five is one. what was it, two x right two times five okay. right. so all these have been marked and they're okay are they? yeah. erm right. now five these ones here though, i was surprised i i got them right. mm? because i was like well it wasn't quite gelling, but i just done it anyway and it follow the rule yeah. tells you. square it, multiply it by two, subtract, whatever it is, just do it. yeah. and you get the answer. erm right. i think three might be on another page. f maps to next prime number greater than x. find f of seven. what number's that, a? a on three. well f of seven was eleven . yeah. right. f of seven, what's the next prime number, well it's not worth trying the evens, nine obviously isn't prime, so eleven is the next one. yeah. okay. f of fourteen? it's not fifteen that was seventeen. seventeen. yeah. and f of three, next one up is five. yeah. ooh no. no that's erm it's not five. why not? f of seven is fine, f of fourteen is fine, right. we need two people for this, to work out this function. we're both doing the same job, we're both the same function, which is, find the next prime number up, from whatever number you're given. now f of f of mhm. three. yeah. you work it from the inside out. what goes into this f of, is whatever came out of that f of. yeah. so i'll be the inside one, mhm. the one that works out f of three. right so, you're the gaffer if you like, you're the outside one. you'll come along and you say, right i will i'm going to you're going to take as your input, whatever i give as output. my input was three. yeah. and so f of three is five. mm. and that's what i hand on to you as your input. mhm. okay. so you've now got to work out f of five. function of five? and the function is, find the next prime number that's greater than. well don't i just go the next one great than three? no because that's what that's not your input, that's my input. yeah. that's my input. mm. you're waiting there, mm. you can't do anything, until i've produced my output. right i'm that first i'm that function, mhm. and you're this one, outside the gates if you like , yeah. outside the brackets. mhm. waiting until that one's been worked out. oh if that's one's five then they go to the next on e after that, which is seven . seven. right now a function of a function there. mhm. it's the same, it's the same function. i think it's probably easier to see it, when you use a different function. now we don't he hasn't given you any of those here. er i'm pretty sure they do give you them. just check the level yeah he hasn't hasn't if he gives you that, if he gives you f of f, then he can give you f of g, and i'm pretty sure that you do need to know that, so i won't bother checking. i'll just give you some on those. mhm. and you can see what this this is in function notation, which is most commonly used, and it's easier to understand, than the mapping notation, most people find . yeah. so think of a function, keep it nice and simple, cos you're gonna have to work it out . yeah. okay. think of a function. er x squared f of x equals x squared plus ten . plus ten. well do you want to make, do you want to make it plus one? yeah. plus one might be a bit easier. okay. and i'll think of a function. which is three x minus two. okay? right. okay. now what i want you to do, is to find f of g of x. and to find g of f of x. now we'll try a few examples first. mm. with actual numbers. before we go into that. yeah. what's f of g of three? how would you work that out, sort of talk about it before you get started. what what are you going to do with that? er m well if if function was three, it'd be function isn't three, input, the number that's going in is three. mhm. right. g three g of three. g of three, g of three squared plus one. g of three. so that f has got to wait outside, the brackets, till the stuff inside's been worked out . mhm. so we'll just leave this down here. waiting to see mhm. what it comes to. mm. it's f of something. it doesn't know what yet. mhm. right, so what's g of three? g of three is er g three squared plus one. it's not g three squared. g of it's just no, g of three, is three squared plus on. yeah. right. it's very important to be precise and know exactly what you're talking about on these, cos you'll get mhm. you'll just finish up with rubbish if you don't. yeah. and it's why they put these in mm. to m to sort out if you were really on top of it and know what you're doing. mm. okay. so now we're looking for f of three squared plus one. and what's no we don't. that's right not right. i should have have checked that before i wrote it in. g of g of x is three times x yeah yeah g three times x minus two. g of x is three ti three x three times x so it's three minus two . times three, minus two. mhm. okay. erm let's change that, let's make that four, so we don't get confused with this three that's already in there . yeah okay. so it's three times x which is three times four. mhm. plus two. okay. minus two. g of x right so it's three fours are twelve take away two is is ten . well okay. that's what we've got so far. now we want to do f of that. now what does f of that come to? the function of that is x squared well that's x. that lot is x. so it's ten squared. so it's three times four minus two, squared plus one. plus one. so that's f of g of x. mhm. now i'd like you that's f of g of x, to work out g of f of x. mhm. er the same x. g of f of three. of four sorry. so right. what's that going to come to? g that's what that's what f of x comes to, and that's what g of f g of x comes to. right so first of all i work out what's inside these brackets yeah? yeah. leave the g there. good. now f of four is four squared plus one. right. yeah? don't work ou yeah that's great. don't work out what that comes to, leave it as four squared plus one. right. okay. so then g g of x er is, now you you can only write exactly what's on there, in here. mhm. because that's what g of that's g of thins number. mhm. and this is g of the same number. so you don't need the g on it now. when when you went from there to there, the f of four disappeared. yeah. cos four squared plus one, is f of four. right. so when you go from there to there, the g will disappear. mhm. and the brackets. yeah. okay. that will all disappear. yeah. hello hi. how are you then? fine thanks. having a nice rest are you? well i am now now anyway . i mean, you know in general, are you sort of sitting back, you know, letting the house run itself and everyone rushing round. oh well not quite really no. you get some troublemakers here sometimes don't you. thanks very much for okay. the coffee. so what would g of seven be, it would be three times seven minus two. but what's g of this lot? well is it i'd have to work it out wouldn't i? no. four fours are sixteen but th that would be seventeen. okay do it like that. so it'd be three seventeen minus two. right so write it as about here write it as three times seventeen, minus two. okay, but there's no reason why you can't write it as we're doing g of f of, that was f of, and g of is g of f of that's x so we've got three times, four squared plus one. yeah. minus two. minus two. yeah. yeah okay? right. that's i put them just that's fine. now so it helps to put that in the brackets. it helps to put that in a smaller bracket, when i go three times that, minus that. yeah. right. g of f of x is going to be what? it's going to be g of what's f of x? x squared plus one. right, what do you do with when you're doing g, you do three times it minus two. and then subtract two. right. right now you worked out f of four. mhm. g you worked out g of f of four. this should be a general thing now. er g of f of x is equal to that. so if we put four in there, we should get the same answer that you got. three seventeens minus two, forty nine. is that right? looks about it. yeah. mhm. okay. so if we put four in there, that'll be seventeen, three seventeens. yeah. that works okay, that. yeah. and g of f of four, would come to forty nine. now i'm pretty certain that you do that and it's it's a bit of erm there's qui quite a bit in it. getting sort of it does, the functions can see seem quite advanced really don't they. . or is it just cos it's fresh stuff? er bit like algebra isn't it ? but they're not so much yeah. they're not so much advanced, as they are very very basic. mm. they're more basic than algebra, yeah. more basic , and the more basic things are, the more strange and sort of mm. more awkward to get your head round it. er just see what they say on functions here. .look in the table. page eight. coverage of topics. topics, relevant to basic level. higher level, intermediate level. so intermediate, rounding,simultaneous equations by graph. they're all on that. want to look at, on the graphs. bearings, transformations, probability, i can't see functions. should be right at the beginning. erm, rounding off. it still ne yeah. drawing bearings, transformations, rotations . functions,fractions. functions. functions and combinations of functions, at the higher level. n e a, level r. you're doing q aren't you? yeah. are you all doing q at on your night school course? yeah. they might have just threw in a bit er more from paper three. erm cos he reckons that paper three does give you some well i i thought, that functions came into it, i must say. this one doesn't give it and er is this one er oh this is an eighty eight. eighty eight. i mean they they can change in a year. can change in a year. in this one? er probably the best way to tell, is did he give you a syllabus at some stage? yeah. he did. mm. it'll be in here. cos it's on definitely on the higher level. it's just that i i'm quite sure that you need. see he's given you a function of a function. mhm. f of f of erm and i think you do need it on that. but erm see i don't know where he got it from, because he didn't give us th questions out of this book. no. he he'd obviously done them in school yeah. and brought them in on you know, erm sort of are you reasonably happy with that? yeah. i mean at first i didn't know what you mean, but i do now. so it's getting used to, for a start, being able to read it. mm. cos it's it's hieroglyphics. mm yeah. isn't it? it's just mm. funny squiggles and you've got to sort of like when you first see x squared, and you think, what's that? x with a little two up in the air. yeah. erm then you gradually get used to it, and when you read it, you've read it several times, it means something to you then. so this'll come to mean something. erm er they're all okay, they're all okay. . he's only given you one of those. do do don't bother about that one. er when do you see him next? wednesday? tues tuesday. tuesday. ask him whether you need to do that c whether you mhm. need to do that? yeah. g g of f of x. mhm. erm if you do, we'll have a look at it a bit more. right. erm i think you're okay on the basic functions. you've got that mhm. so we'd be better off, spending the time on on graphs. now he give me that. three posts on a building site. er let's have a look. er one right you okay on number one? i haven't even read it. er the cash price for double glazing the windows was three nine five oh. he decided to pay by hire purchase. pay a deposit of twenty percent. calculate the amount of the deposit. well i mean i know that twenty percent is twenty pound in a hundred, but what's a quick way of doing it on the calculator. what is the quick formula. have you got a well there are several way of doing it, but have you got er a percent button? that's one that's probably th simplest. which you don't tend to have oh you have got one there on the equal. erm what's that? shift and pers shift and equal? mm. er let's see. one hundred plus two shift percent. is there an alt or a another funny key that you use instead of? not that one. one hundred erm maybe it'll only work with the times, generally on scientific ones, they don't use the percent mm. times something to do with a hundred times the amount isn't it. two see you've got a percent key marked there, how do you get mhm. these, upper ones. oh you put it into a different mode. ah yeah that's what you do. mhm. you put this into a different mode, and it's not worth messing about with that at all. no cos it mess it up because, you put that into a different mode, you can't get back to your normal mode, and your calculator's useless for the rest of the exam. yeah. so don't use your percent button. mhm. erm right equivalents of percentages and fractions. . what does four percent mean? oh four parts of a hundred. okay four percent is a fraction. mhm. four out of a hundred. that's it. simple as that. so if i said, find four percent of two hundred and forty pounds. right. mhm. it's it's four hundredths of don't forget that times is of. yeah. you don't you don't ever need to know that that is pronounced times. mhm you can always say of. yeah. three of four. three of four is twelve. three sets of four, three lots of four, three boxes of four, mhm. bags of four. three of four, is twelve. four of three, is twelve. mm. right. four hundredths of two forty is the same as two forty of four hundredths. mhm. doesn't matter which way you round you do it, that of, you can just switch them and get the same answer. which you know from your your three fours and four yeah. threes. so that's all you do. how would you do that on your calculator? er two forty times a hundred times four? no. how would you find oh two forty over a hundred, times four. right. yes. yes. you've got. are you okay multiplying fractions? of of-ing fractions? yeah. yeah. er not a hundre not a hun not brilliant no. not a hundred percent that's yeah. a fraction so you must have some idea of fractions. right. easiest thing to do with fractions, is to multiply them. mhm. it's the easiest thing to do. cos you do what you think you're suppo you know what you'd expect. yeah. is you just multiply the two top ones together. yeah. right? and you multiply yeah. the two bottom ones together.. right so that's so what's have a guess, what would be erm so nine hundred, it works out at nine pound odd what would two thirds of three quarters come to roughly. just sort of thinking about it having a guess. a half. how did you get that? did you work it out here? no it just seemed to spring to mind. okay, what would three quarters of two thirds be? three quarters of two thirds, be a half. right. are you happy with that? yeah. yeah. okay. just just have a quick look at it. in real life instead of squiggles on bits of paper . right if we multiply that up it would come out to a half yeah. wouldn't it. but i never, it just seemed to click as a what are we doing. erm two thirds of three quarters, or three quarters of two thirds. right. so how much is there? er three quarters. how big is that? that's that's a third. right and that's also a third. it doesn't look it cos it's mm. it's a s different colour, but it is the same size as that. mhm. so we've got two thirds there. yeah. what would a quarter of that look like? if you shared that two thirds out evenly between four people , mm. how much would they get each. about that. great. if you shared out that two thirds right that's that's yeah. one piece there, two thirds. share that out between four people, how much would they get each? er one of these. one of these. okay? mhm. so that's one quarter. mhm. so three quarters, would be three pieces like this. mhm. it would be one two three. yeah. that's the half. mm. okay. now what's two thirds of three quarters? here's your three quarters. what would one third of this be? if we shared that three quarters equally between three people, how much would they get? between three people. mhm. they'd get erm let's see they'd get that. right. so they'd get they'd get that much. mm. that's one third of three quarters. so two thirds of three quarters, would be two pieces like that. mhm. okay? one two. which is a half. mhm. so it does work out. yeah. it always works out with fractions. it's the easiest thing to do with them. multiply one by the other. mhm. leave them there. but it's all all this is okay, but it sort of makes your brain ache after a bit and to just see something real that relates to it it's makes it stick in your yeah. mind. mm. so any number, divided by one, is just the same number, so if we yeah. so if we got two, four, o multiplied by four, equal to so what it is nine sixty don't don't need to do the equals, you can go straight on to the divide by a hundred. and if we divide that by one, nought, nought, and then we do the equals, it becomes nine point six. right. okay. good. i say i thought it was about nine pound odd. right. so so the the formula, to calculate what erm percentage p p percent if you like. well mhm. we wo won't use x. p percent of thirty five pounds,that's thirty five times p over a hundred. yeah. that's it? yeah. good that works, so if you want a twenty mhm. percent, it's thirty five times twenty and divide by a hundred. mhm. some of them you you might do in your head, like you think, well i know twenty percent is one fifth, so i'll just divide that by five and that's seven pounds. mhm. erm so you can do that, you can work out total payments, and subtract that, and what it should have been. what about number two? let's see erm the diagram above, represents a rectangular lawn, fifteen by ten, with a circular flower bed diameter six . taking pi as three er taking pi as three, calculate the area of the flowerbed. area of a circle is pi r squared . so it's three times the radius, squared? mhm. yeah. so calculate the area of the flowerbed. okay? er so the the flower bed has a diameter of six metres. so the radius is three metres. right. so pi is three, times three squared. right. okay? well yeah? three squared is nine, so it's three nines, which is twenty seven. right. okay, twenty seven square metres. mhm. and then what about b? please calculate the area of lawn remaining. so we have to take away, twenty seven metres. square m all the way round yeah. is the perimeter. area is the short one. that's not all the way round, that's just multiplying one by the other. mhm. okay. that gives you a the length by the breadth or if you're working out er painting a ceiling or something, mm. length by the breadth to work out how may square metres, then you have a look on the can,one can will cover thirty square metres or whatever . mm. okay? so that's okay. so you shouldn't be having any problem with those anyway. in the diagram, a rhombus, each side of length three centimetres, put x in inside. given that x is less than three centimetres from here mm mm mm mm, indicate the region in which x must lie. mm. now, any of these geometry ones, have a look, if you can't get it very quickly, just leave it. yeah. erm you can come back to it at the end if you've done everything else, but there's something about these that er i think you're one. erm some people get hooked on geometry, and they, i'm gonna get this one if it kills me . yeah. it doesn't kill you, but it means you spend an hour on it when you could be doing the rest of your exam . yeah. it doesn't help. yeah. okay? er what what they're saying is, p q p going round this way, p q r s, is a rhombus. what does it mean a rhombus? that's the name of that shape? yeah. yeah. cos i've not come across that. okay. i have seen that shape, but not called a rhomb but each side of length is three centimetres. so three, six, they will twelve. each of those is three, alright? twelve centimetres. for the whole thing. the the perimeter would be twelve centimetres yeah. yeah. a point x lies inside the rhombus. it is given that x is less than three centimetres from p. right? yeah right. and that the distance p x, is greater than the distance r x. right. so it's got to be down here. indicate clearly, by shading it the diagram, the region in which k must lie,down here. clearly shade in the diagram. is that worth about . a point at x lies inside the rhombus. it's given x is less than three centimetres from p. so it means it's not ah so it means it's got to be up the top end. but you just said it's down the bottom end? i did. but i'm reading it again. mhm. and it says, it's given that x is less than three centimetres from p. well these are three centimetres long. right. so if it's less than three centimetres from p it's got to be up this end. and that the distance p x ir greater than the distance r x. well that does throw me because then right. yeah. because it's like equal distances . okay. right. so you get to that stage, and you think forget this. mm. right? right. how many marks for it? not many. there wouldn't be many for that. mm. and you could waste an awful lot of time on it. wh what was the answer for that? well i think i'll leave you that one. . erm are you taking the mickey ? i'll give you i give you a clue. shall i give you a clue? er no. it's geometry question, what sort of things do you normally use with, when you're doing geometry? like pi and stuff like that? you know. mm. what sort of instrument did you normally use? a protractor. yeah. anything else? compass. that's more like it. mm. erm nearly all of these, geometry questions yeah. wh where there're constructions, a compass comes into it. so don't spend much time on that. cos mm. you've got lots of other work in this that you should be doing. yeah. right. but if you're really absolutely cheesed off, then give yourself am maximum of five minutes on that, mhm. and then leave it and go and do something else. yeah. and it'll probably come to you. but erm don't get stuck on those in the exam. right. if you can't do it right away, leave it. mhm. right. student asks thirty people, how long it had taken them and you draw a frequency table, which you've just been doing there. mhm. okay? so that should be okay. that would be a good one for you to try on your own. yeah. erm right i i would say, just leave that. just forget it yeah. just forget that sort of problem altogether mhm. because you can really get stuck on them. yeah. that you'll get you can pretty much guarantee you'll get one, and it'll be almost the same as that. there'll be different numbers, it won't be a football match, it might be weights of pizzas, it might be the length to french sticks, you know it could be anything. but yeah. it'll be very similar to that. same technique. i think you'll also get something like this. using the root which is not drawn to scale, write down the reading running up there, running up there, running up there, giving the total . find the numbers of litre petrol. now you should be able to do that one. mhm. completely on your own. so this i this is a good thing to work through, this one. now look. a field is in the shape of a quadrilateral,. use the scale one to ten. make an accurate drawing now if you get one like this, mm. like six, and you will usually get one of these on,do an accurate scale drawing, then go for that. yeah. they tell you what to do, do an accurate scale drawing. they will often tell you what scale to use as well. which they do here. and then all you have to do, is measure off something, a diagonal or mhm. how far is this one from that? and put your answer in. if your diagram is pretty reasonable, you'll get most of the mark. erm if your diagram's pretty reasonable and you measure the wrong thing, you can still get quite a lot of the marks. mm. so it's a and it doesn't take all day. it's a good one. yeah. so it's a good one to go for. yeah. right. now probability. if you don't understand it, just leave it. yeah. this was the erm tree thing isn't it? yeah. erm write the appropriate probabilities on the branches of the tree diagram. and we'll have a quick glance at that now. see what you make of it. three blue and one red. and two draws are made, at random in each case. draw one, a bead is taken from bag a. and it's put in bag b. well bag a i think that's a bit nasty that. yeah. bag a contains three blue beads mhm. and one red bead. bag b contains three blue beads and three red beads. two draws are made draw one, a bead is taken from bag a and put in bag b. right. a bead is taken from bag b. write the appropriate probability on the branches of the tree diagram. draw one, and they won't be giving you a lot of marks for that i don't mm. think. erm i think that's slightly tricky. it's it's unusual. yeah. erm i mean you're obv er to me you'd there's more chance of you getting a blue bead out. well we're not bot too bothered about, is there more chance or less chance? we want to know exactly. mm. exactly how much chance. erm this is this is real this stuff. this is mm. erm not you know, silly mathematics, it's probability is based on, it's to do with gambling. mm. it's all about getting your money. now there was a bloke called chevalier de mer. who was sounds french. he wrote to pascal. was it pascal? er yes. pascal. erm who was a a mathematician, a very brilliant mathematician. erm saying i've got this gambling problem, i don't know whether how much it's worth betting on this. you're a mathematician , mm. you work it out for him. for me. and he he more or less laid down the whole theory of probability, in a few days, pascal yeah. did. erm in the letters that he wrote to this bloke. who then went on to win quite a lot of money, cos he could yeah. he knew what the odds were and everyone else didn't. erm let's say. a pack of cards. you draw four cards out, one after the other. mm. okay? now it's gonna cost you a pound to play this game. okay. if you get four aces out, we make sure it's a fresh deck of cards and everything else, and nothing's fixed. mm. if those cards that you get are four aces, i'll give you a thousand. okay? a thousand pound. if they're not, then i get your pound. do you want to play? no. would you you know, would you play that? yeah. i'd probably i'd have a go. yeah. you'd have a go. mm. okay. well probably lose me pound like, but i'd have a go. you'd probably lose more than that. mm. cos you'd keep having, ah it's only another pound . you've got fifty off me yeah. so far, i'll have another go, to try and get mm. that thousand. well you'd need about nearly round round about a million goes. mm. you'd think something like three chances in a million of getting four aces. so if someone had come up to you, and said, well look, you you bet three pound, to have a go and if you get a four aces, i'll give you a million pound, then it's worth it. that's a that's a reasonable that's a fair balanced mm. deal. that's okay. but usually, it's very very much loaded in favour in favour of the the banker yeah. the person who's offering you the game, and he knows the odds. mm. you don't. you just think, ooh thousand to one, that sounds good odds. can't get much better than that. no. but he should be giving you a million to three. yeah. which which is a lot more. so we want to know exactly what the odds are, on this one. a blue one or a red one. draw one. what are the odds. red. i i like writing them writing them on the nodes like that. that's a red one, and that's a blue one. right. draw one, it's from bag a. bag a has got three blue, and one red. yeah. start off here with three blue and one red. mhm. what's the chances of getting a red, what's the chances of getting a blue? well there's one chance of getting a red. and there's three chances well mark the probabilities on here. where they've put the oh right. right. three blue, one red. now this looks like a good game to bet on, because a probability of one, is an absolute certainty. a probability of three is just totally unheard of. mm. you can't have a probability of greater than one. yeah. so this isn't the probability. what's the chances of getting a red? the chances of getting a red. there's there's one chance. one chance in a million? one chance in three. one chance in? four. right. so the chance of getting a red, is one in four. ah. the chance of getting a blue? is three in four. and the chance of getting either a red or a blue, if i say, here you are, i'm gonna you've got this bag and it's got three blue and one red in it. and i'm gonna pick one at random, and i'm gonna have this bet with you that i will get either a red or a blue. and what odds are you gonna are you gonna play? yeah. if you've got. there's the bag has got, three blue and one red in it. yeah. i'm gonna take one out without looking. mhm. and i'm gonna bet you that i'll either get a red one or a blue one. mm. now i'll pay you ten pounds to play this game, and i only want a pound if i win. yeah. i'd play it but it's possible that the red one will go when you take it out. and there'll only be blue left. well it's a certainty that i'll get either a red or a blue. yeah. right. mhm. cos there's only a red or a blue in there, so if i that's right yeah. if i say, i'll bet you i'll get either a red or a blue. mhm. yeah. i'm i'm onto a good, i can't lose. yeah. so i'll just keep raking it in won't i ? mm. because we add up the probabilities, to find out the chances of getting that or that. we get three quarters, add a quarter, one. which is one. a probability of one, is an absolute certainty. mhm. one out of one. a hundred times out of a hundred, a million times out of a million. yeah. cos probability is always expressed as a fraction. right. now this is where the tricky bit comes in. whatever one we get, goes into the next bag. mhm. so if we did get three out of four chances we get a blue. yeah. if we get a blue one, we put it in the bag, and what would the bag cont what would the second bag contain now? bag b, it had got three blue and three red, so it's now going to have four blue and three red. okay? mhm. looking at this one, if we pulled a red one out of bag a and put it into bag b, bag b would now have three blue, and four red. take that one next as we're down here. blue at the top. now what's the chance of getting a blue? how many are there in the bag? three. and four red . four red. so what's the chances of getting a blue one? three in seven. that's it. three out of seven. and the chances of getting a red? four out of seven. four out of seven. okay? mhm. going back to the beginning again. three blues on red. mot likely, three times out of four it'll be a blue. we put it in the second bag, and that's now four blue and three red. so the chance of getting a blue is? four out of seven. four out of seven. and the chance of getting a red? three out of seven. down here. three out of seven. okay? right. what's the chance of getting either a blue or a red? on this on this pick? erm four sevenths, add three sevenths,how many sevenths is that? seven sevenths are one. which is one. so it's a certainty that we get a blue or red. yeah. it's just a check that we've got that covered. mhm. that we have got the right probabilities. yeah. same down here, three sevenths add four sevenths, that's okay. now what's the chance, that we'll get a blue out of the first bag, and a blue out of the second bag? erm three and four and four and seven, so it's what do you mean by, three and four and four and seven? i was gonna add them up to see how were you? yeah. what happens if i added erm an eighth to three quarters? would the three quarters get bigger or less? bigger or smaller? bigger. so you're saying, there's more chance of getting the blue out of out of the second, than there is of just mhm. right, and your next one, if you put it back, is four out of fifty two. and the next one four out of fifty two. so you're saying the chances of getting four aces, provided you put it back each time and shuffled them again, would be sixteen out of fifty two. mm yeah. no. your o your chances aren't getting better, they're getting a lot worse mhm. aren't they? mhm. with each complication. yeah. each other unlikely event that's got to happen. there's a good chance we won't even be there. mhm. we won't there's there's a good chance we don't even get the first blue. yeah. so having got it, it's not a certainty that we'll get the next one. we've got to combine these two probabilities, by multiplying them. mhm. so the chance of getting here, is three quarters times four sevenths. okay? yeah. which will come to three sevenths. the chance of getting here, is three quarters times three sevenths. now might as well leave them as as twenty eighths. so that' nine twenty eighths there. mhm. twelve twenty eighths up here. this one, the chance of coming down this way, was a quarter. we can only only start off from here, mhm. if we've come down there. and most of the time we won't. we will have gone up there three times out of four. yeah. so to even get a chance of picking a a blue, after we've had a red, mhm. only that'll one happen one time in in four, on there. so this is going to be a quarter times three sevenths. mhm. . and that's going to come to three out of twenty eight. and this one, will be what? where one one quarter times four sevenths. that's it. four over twenty eight. and they, what do they add up to? four and three is seven , seven and twelve is nineteen so it's six sixteen plus twelve. and nine. twenty eight. right. okay. yeah. twenty eight twenty eighths is one. that's right. right. it means we've covered them all and we've got the probability correct. twelve and nine, twenty one, twenty four, twenty eight out of twenty eight. if we'd have added them mm. the way you wanted to do, and then we added all this lot up, we'd find well,w the chance is more than a certainty. more than one, that we'd finish up there. and very very much more than one, that one of these would happen. at each stage in your tree vertically, yeah. if you add them up, they should come to one. when you work out the probability of arriving at that point. so if we call that point blue, red, and we call this one here, blue, blue. right? that's a blue followed by a blue. and this one is a blue followed by a red, a red followed by a blue. and a red followed by a red. that's r r. okay? yeah. erm that's a q sorry that's a quick look at it. now the reason this is a bit messy, is that at that stage, depended on which one you get out of here, you putting in the second bag. erm i haven't seen one before like that at this level. yeah. he may be giving us harder papers just to i suspect that you don't that you don't ne yeah. i think he is. as he gears up. i think you don't need that bit. erm try it again. do it yourself, that one. mhm. but don't when you've made your draw, yeah. don't bother putting the ball in the next bag, in bag b. bag b's got three blue and three red. just leave it like that. mhm. when you've drawn the first one, just put it back in the first bag and forget about it and go on. and see how you work your tree out. yeah. okay. that's erm . but you need you need to be practising a lot of things now. mm. a lot. erm right. using the distances and bearings, draw a scale diagram and measure things. good one to go for. mhm. you should get full marks on that and on that other one. yeah. they're good ones to go for. that one no way. you know? yeah. you can really get tied up in it and you and i'll just try this now. i know i've been a long time on this but i'll i think it's nearly there. yeah. they can be nearly there for an hour and a half. mm. and you keep, oh yeah i'll just no. yeah. just leave it. leave it. and what's mrs pink doing? alright, again, this is the same sort of thing you get. average speed before the car broke down. average speed between then and then. the length of the time that she spent in cambridge. that's a good one to look at. er now he's get ms and ss and ns on this. so that's midlands and southern and northern. that was a northern was it? what does he mean by that? northern paper. oh right. northern paper, southern paper, midlands paper. oh yeah. erm okay. yeah i think i think have a go at those, you should be able to. you should be able to do all of those. i would le definitely leave that. mhm. there won't be a lot of marks on it. yeah. so you can really just you know mm. you can just throw the exam away getting stuck yeah. on one of those. erm bearing you should be fine on that and on that. now, drawing graphs of functions. have you done inequalities? less x is less than or equal to six? no. no. cos that is definitely on erm. mm. you've done drawing graphs of er y equals done vectors y equals two x minus three. things like that. draw a graph of that. no. no? doesn't ring a bell, no. not a graph of it, no. you have you has he done any drawing graphs? yeah he's done some graph work. erm yeah. yeah. you'll be given a function like given in that form, y equals some function of x. and then draw a graph. there's some sort of graphs here. i d oh these . quick look at that one. yeah this is it. yeah. draw a graph of that equals that for that. no. okay? is that a vector? no? no. no. let's have a look. no. it's just a graph of a function which happens to be a straight line. erm my lines i think i've possibly got them mm. . yes. i think so. yeah i wouldn't have said wrong, but not correct. so x is minus one. four x plus one is minus three. one and five okay those points are right. so putting those on the graph, you've got minus one, minus three. minus one right one one point should be here. mhm. you've got nought, one, which is there. okay. i'll just put a ring in pencil, round the ones that are okay. nought, one, that's okay. y equals three x plus five, okay. and you're doing, y equals four x plus one. oh i see. yeah. but erm they're mm. this one this minus one, three, just isn't shown anywhere. yeah. minus one minus three doesn't even go down to minus two . yeah. i d i didn't actually complete this. no. okay. in fact i i've got a feeling this may erm have been, written down to actually do mm. on ano separate pieces of graph paper. yeah. that's what i th or well what i was just about to suggest. it would be well worth you doing that, because they give you, you can almost guarantee a question on graphs. they'll give you some mm. nice standard functions like this, that you can feel at home with. yeah. and draw your graph. erm let's see. if you've got any different, use two colours there, how many have you got? one, two,and three, yeah. i would do them on separate ones. erm if you haven't got graph paper, erm pick a bit of s squared paper mhm. just a normal sort of squared exercise book. i haven't got any with me, and i was just looking at graphs for someone else earlier. yeah. erm that's i mean i would really recommend that you make the time. yeah. it's getting to do that. it's getting very very close, and you've got an awful lot to do. mm. you've got a tremendous amount to for you, not for me to go through with you, mm. but just for you to do, on what we've done so far, mm. to consolidate that, before we can move on really. yeah. yeah erm. erm. i can't find time for you , yeah. you you'll have to make the time somewhere, mm. pinch the times from something. erm to do cos you're gonna, you're gonna be struggling if you mm. if you can't do a lot more work. yeah. er how d how do you feel, you're doing with with the maths? erm well i feel i like you say, i can do with more more sitting down and doing it myself so it it sinks in . mm. you could do with a lot a lot more. a lot more exercises mm. and a lot more because otherwise, you're gonna come to that exam, you're gonna sit down, and you're gonna say, oh i did something a bit like this with john, i remember that. i understood it at the time. yeah. it's gone now. cos you haven't done it yourself, yeah. on your own, several times, to practise it, to shake it up and down, get all the bits out of it mm. and sort of store it away yeah. where you can just pull it in. you think, yeah, i know what i'm doing with this. completely in control of it. yeah. okay? yeah. erm. what more can i say ? well you you need i'll to you need to have a good go at these. go through that paper, and mhm. erm and do those graphs. yeah. and i'll have a a good read of this, and try and write down, things that i've got a block about i mean do do more writing and trying things and reading at the moment. mhm. you can catch up on the i mean you can do those graphs without reading anything else about it. yeah. do one on each sheet of paper. erm reuben might have some graph paper i've got gr i've got graph paper. right. yeah. okay? great well use on sheet for each. yeah. and do some graphs on that. cos we've got, really we've got a a lot more that i'd like to cover. yeah. erm we've only had a a glimpse really of probability. mhm. you can guarantee there'll be one question on that. yeah. erm you could probably do with revising the statistics bit. erm you should also be practising, manipulating equations. mhm. changing the subject of equ of an equation. yeah. yeah. i hesitate to do so because that's actually a source of difference between us and the county council. but there are parties round this table who have nostalgic hankering for a projections. and i've put around today a short paper which has a a graph attached to it which i think adds to the explanation when i draw your attention to. it's a graph of average household size in north yorkshire, and it's to that extent it's an attempt to summarize into one figure, the headship rate effect as it affects average household size. the the falling line in er in a continuous line is . derived either from county council sources or actual census reports so that is as it were, fact. and when you come to the lines on the right hand side, you have two views of the future, which are labelled eighty five based and eighty nine based. and the are these are the d o e's projected household sizes from those two sets of household projections. and i think the point the graph makes very clearly is that the eighty nine based set up here at least in my view, to fit far better to what has been happening than eighty five based set. not only had a much slower rate of fall, but are actually detached nineteen ninety one from what we know has been happening. thank you. thank you. mr mr ? yes. chairman representing . i'd like to ask a question please of mr . could he explain or clarify please what his unrestrained land, this four hundred and ninety two hectares. is it erm the national parks and greenbelt or i'd like to understand what it means. erm the if if if you turn to the er selby submission on h one, you'll find a table at the back of that submission and that's where that's the that's where that the basis of that. could could you are you happy with that? erm. would you like it spelt out? i'd like to turn turn to the . selby? selby. selby h one. have a look at it while we're having coffee mr . can we have a break now for fifteen minutes? come back at quarter to twelve. are you . no that's . yes sir the erm mr cowie. mr grigson the positive paper this morning was er one item and also the more general question of the nineteen eighty nine projections closer than the nineteen eighty five ones. er we've used the nineteen eighty nine ones but we are reluctant to do so. we don't necessarily believe that they are all correct in what they say. sorry the nineteen eighty nine projections for what? headship. erm they're obtained by looking at the results of the labour force survey which is a very small proportion of households surveyed each year. and so there must be an element of doubt over having updated from nineteen eighty one here to nineteen eighty nine. er we are confirmed in our reservations about this by the results of the regional census study as i noted in my brief commentary n y three. erm the point about the regional census study was that it did a reasonably good job of analyzing the present situation, but not a very good job of the projections. and we did compare the eighty nine based headship rates come from that ninety one against the census in . and it showed er some doubt about the er actually levels of comparison, but there was a question mark they raised, specifically about north yorkshire. north yorkshire in that context was different to what they found in the rest of the region. there is n there is a doubt about whether the eighty nine headship rates are appropriate. had we used the eighty five ones, the housing provision would be some ten thousand or so fewer than it is. two thousand and six. sorry could you repeat ten thousand. ten thousand. the second small point i just wish to reemphasize was er coming from what the house builders federation said earlier about the house builders being the people who are looking after the interests os north yorkshire locals. i would remind all concerned that the local needs element in the predictions is sixteen and a half thousand dwellings. this as far as i'm aware hasn't been challenged by anybody else. so any dwellings over and above sixteen and a half thousand, would only be taken by people moving into the county and not by locals. and so it would not be right to say that we're not looking after the local element of the population. i don't think that was necessarily the drift of the the house builders comment. but er i'll leave that. your comment about the headship rates raise an interesting issue, in fact goes back to the comment mr made, about the west yorkshire and south yorkshire who've got a consistent approach in projecting . is that correct? that's correct . i'm not sure whether mrs is either able or would wish to comment necessarily at this stage but er and i but is there any possibility that in the course of the operating the r p g, although i know that circulates to me certainly . is there any likelihood that that consistency of approach which is being used by the south yorkshire and west yorkshire counties, would er could be adap adopted for o by other authorities in the north yorkshire county . thank you chairman. margaret , d o e. the erm draft of or the advice that the local planning authorities intend to give to the secretary of state is currently out for consultation, we hope that it will be submitted by the end of the year. at the moment the figures of housing provision in that draft advice are rat are done on a rather different basis for west yorkshire as opposed to the other counties in the region. it remains to be seen what figures are included when it is submitted to the secretary of state and what view he takes on that. but certainly when we in the regional office get that that advice before before we put a submission to ministers, we will of course try to reconcile the figures so that they are on a consistent basis. as for mr 's point that not mr b steven 's point that the erm figures for the strategic guidance for west and south yorkshire were done on a different basis, those figures with the exception of sheffield, were erm figures that were put in by the local planning authorities, the secretary of state accepted those figures, they were done on the nineteen eighty five based household projections, coupled with different assumptions about vacancy rates and demolitions etcetera, and the secretary of state accepted those figures. erm in my view the secretary of state may come to the view on the latest figures that are available for him and erm no that is what i hope he will do when it comes to erm producing regional guidance. thank you. i m i must confess i'm one of these simple folk who thought that once we got the nineteen ninety one census figures through then it would it would all start into place. me too chairman. however can can i just? carry on. i was going to add a supplementary point er on that very issue of the nineteen ninety one census. er referring to the graph in er mr 's paper, which showed that er the ninete well purported to show the nineteen eighty nine based headship rate figures were more in line with past experience. er that very much depends on the er intervening line at nineteen ninety one. and i'm just wondering whether er the er point at nineteen ninety one is a correct v in view of the under-enumeration er in the census which isn't taken into account . so it could be that there were line from eighty one would come up to the eight five based starting point er a rather than the eighty nine based starting point on the graph. we can't look into it because it's only just been given to us. i i would i would suspect that it needs some some interpretation. . has anybody or or else want to make any comments on on the . i'd like to move on to this er this issue of migration. chairman i i wonder whether i could just make a sort of general statement from the department's view before we go on to a particular issue if i may. erm i hope it didn't take too long to read our statement. . it was rather shorter than than everybody else's. . erm i understand that the house builders federation have written to my headquarters on expressing concern about the possible temerity of the regional office having actually put forward a suggested figure for housing provision in north yorkshire. we thought from where we sat that the department should stand up and be counted along with all the other participants around the table. i hope you will view that figure in that light. it is not necessarily the secretary of state's definitive view, it is the view that erm the regional office have come to given the erm evidence presented presented at the time. erm secondly, i'm not a statistician, i am unable to comment about all the technicalities of the the various assumptions that go into things but some of the people sitting around this table will know that i've been in yorkshire and humberside for quite some time . i therefore have a fair amount experience of this region and also erm i have been involved in quite a lot of erm estimates of housing provision over the years. we've set out the assumptions that erm we used as a basis for our projections in the note in front of you. i hold hold no great sway to those assumptions. i'm sure many people sitting around this table could drive a horse and cart through any of them. but i believe that what you should do with trying to come to estimates of housing provision, is to put together the best technical assumptions that you can, to then sit down and take a long hard look at the figures based on the erm the policies of the county council as approved by the secretary of state in previous structure plan approvals, the current government policy. i have particularly in mind, the erm regeneration initiatives of this government, the experience that erm you know of an area and erm the experience of what is happening in neighbouring counties. this chairman is what we have done. our conclusions for what they are worth are set out and we come to a figure of about forty five thousand. well. thank you. yes well mm. for the next day and a half. can i just come back to this migration question. and . but the difference between the h b f and the county council on migration is somewhere in the order of four thousand . no no . now on a north yorkshire i can't remember which paper it is. it's in one of those. in one of those papers, there is a figure a hundred percent migration forty six thousand . correct? yes. now very simple if i deduct forty one thousand two hundred from forty six thousand you'll probably say i'm doing the wrong sum. erm we have a difference of four thousand eight hundred. now is that difference four thousand eight hundred, due to wastage or entirely to your adjustments to take account of environmental considerations? yes that is . the question is do i need ? i'm chairman . i think it's impossible to explore why there is a difference, it does not explain why the matters we have already discussed, like vacancies,households and death rates why there is a difference between what the county council say is one hundred percent , and what the h b f and others are advocating which is considerably more. first of all can i check that i am right in saying that the difference between the h b f's figures of fifty three thousand and the county council's figure of forty six thousand is explained by the vacancies, concealed households, death rates etcetera. yes. can i short circuit that question and say, what in fact is your hundred percent ? erm roy , house builders federation. erm fifty five thousand e no sorry, i'll have to look that up. one hundred percent migration. never mind the other factors concealed households. fi yeah. fifty five thousand seven hundred. . erm steven ,. it would be fifty four thousand eight hundred if there was no reduction for environmental considerations. to what extent is the difference between that figure or those figures and the county council's forty six thousand, not explained by what ? roy , house builders federation. my understanding is that there there there isn't any difference that is not explained by those. those those figures. erm the difference between us is of the order of ten thousand i think. erm yeah. that's a for your calculations mhm. no i'll have to i'll i'll i'm afraid i'll have to withdraw that that that comment. there is not erm i i i i would erm i have the figures ready to hand but . i think peter , north yorkshire. i think on this side there's also a degree of corporate confusion at north yorkshire about the what exactly the what exactly we we we're trying to establish during this current round of er . i'm trying to establish put down a figure of forty six thousand for migration. that was taken ,for vacant dwellings. yes. what we are trying at this stage, is the extent to which the difference between the h b f's of fifty five thousand, is explained by any technical treatment of migration, as opposed to. chairman i wonder wonder whether it would help if i quoted from the erm the study into b the census information. the and and and other information. their figure for north yorkshire for eighty one to ninety one, from the national health service register, was forty seven point two inward. the residual estimate which is from the census figures, was fifty point nine. i don't know whether that helps in any way . roy , house builders federation. er that they're they're not the figures that ei either the county or ourselves started from. . i think i can answer your original question now if i may. erm i think i'm right in saying that the difference on a hundred percent migration between the house builders federation and the county council, is accounted for by the technical differences that we've talked about this morning, one thousand six hundred. seven hundred and forty which you may card to ignore, that there are some base dwellings. yeah. two thousand four hundred and ninety on vacancies. and three thousand one hundred and seventy concealed households. and the remaining difference which i estimate to be one thousand five hundred, is really the i think is the difference in the treatment of students. martin , north yorkshire. i think we all agree with er mr , that that there is a technical element to migration figures which is our fifteen hundred dwellings. as a a difference between us on technical measure. sir if i could complete the er arithmetic, i think it would be helpful, if you were to look again at the single page note that was handed on this morning. at the table, in paragraph seven where we set out our differences from the county council. i appreciate this is not in quite the form you asked the question, but you asked the question in terms of the differences apart from migration considerations. and as i'm able to do the arithmetic, the difference between the county council's full migration which is forty six thousand two hundred, and ours with no environmental reduction which i gave you as fifty four thousand eight hundred, comes if i've done my arithmetic right, to eight thousand six hundred. if that's the difference between us which are not due to migration environment. if you now look at the table, you'll see that that's made out of three thousand two hundred for concealed households. two thousand one hundred for a constant vacancy proportion. a difference of one thousand one hundred in the base dwellings stock which i've not discussed and don't propose to go into. and two thousand for the lower death rates, national projections which i've already mentioned. and i think that will be roughly of the order of eight thousand six hundred, so those are our component differences. yeah well, does anybody want to make any comment on that because i'm i'm quite environmental considerations yes. mr . er john , of of consultants on behalf of the er council for the protection of rural england. erm you you've asked er chairman for for a general comment on on what's been referred to as environmental discount, environmental considerations and so forth. i i think the c p r e's general comments and and you'll see from our our evidence that we we've deliberately not entered into the the the debate that you you've heard to date this morning. er our general response is is that the approach for the county council is is to be commended erm i in terms of i think, interpreting the true spirit of of of government guidance in in plan making, that erm the the the the discussion about figures is but one consideration. er to to to take into account wh when coming to agreement as to what the overall levels should be. erm i think we feel quite strongly that that erm er the the emphasis that should be placed on environmental considerations is is considerable. erm and as such, erm are concerned that perhaps i it is becoming a a secondary element erm i i in in the debate. in in that it's just being er interpreted as a percentage reduction erm as t to migration rates. erm and i think just by way of introductory comment, i i refer to the the paper that that north yorkshire put round, n y eleven, erm in which there there's a far fuller discussion in there of what of what the environmental constraints are and what the considerations should be. er county-wide, in terms of er how they should be reflected erm in the figures. and i think er w we're concerned that erm the the case presented by the county has in in concentrating on migration, perhaps they haven't haven't fully expanded on on the points that they've raised in document n y eleven. i wonder if by way of introduction, the county might wish to to comment on that. do you want to ? well i re peter , north yorkshire. i don't wonder whether it would be helpful just step back a bit and just look at the county council's view as to how it should treat migration in the light of what the secretary of state has approved on two occasions, when this issue has come up. on the issue of migration and it's relationship with with adjoining counties. and our view is that whichever way you look at approved structure plan and the two decisions of the secretary of state, first of all in er er on the approved structure plan and secondly, on the first alteration to the structure plan. quite clearly there there is recognition that there should be some limit to the level of migration er inward migration in north yorkshire. and the secreta the secretary of state is quite clear that the environmental constraint in north yorkshire, is a particularly important one. although we might try to decision method, the overall stress of the secretary of state's decision methods, as they affect north yorkshire, is that there must be some limit er to migration largely for environmental considerations and indeed, the panel in nineteen eighty seven were very concerned that er migration would not be slowed quickly enough er in north yorkshire. so the there is the county council we must try er and moderate migration. and it would appear to many rather strained within that agreed by the secretary of state, a matter of general principle, the county council accepted past level er of migration without looking er at the implications er of that. and indeed there are some who make think that the county council has been too generous in that the reduction from the hundred percent migration in four districts, er amounts only to somewhere about four and a half er thousand dwellings. now within that overall context, and h b f say we have no right to do that, it conflicts with . we say that it is important to the general stress erm of the structure plan. there should be some reduction er in migration er into north yorkshire. that's the basic philosophy of the county council's approach er in this plan. yes er joe representing sams samuel smith's brewery in tadcaster. there is a technical difference that i should erm draw attention, draw the panel's attention to between ourselves and erm other p other in the migration rates. we believe that the migration rates that should be used should be a three year average rather than an eight or a ten year average. our reasons for that are that the especially the eight year average used by the county council, are unduly skewed by the boom of the late eighties, and give in our view, to high a trend t to erm to work from. er the second reason that we would suggest this to the panel is that it is actually er used by opcas, the three year average is used by opcas rather than an eight year average. and as far as i can see, the only reason for an eight year average is because that was accepted by the previous panel. well i don't believe that that should necessarily be a reason why it should be accepted in this case in by this panel. and it would in our view give a more accurate reflection of current trends if a shorter period were used. but if you're using three year average,three recent three years. that you in fact recession. well in fact we we do answer that point in our submissions that in fact it does take in our three year average does take into account the tail end of the boom. so it does actually span the end of the boom, the beginnings of the recession. yes, gentleman, the problem is the shorter the period, the less chance you have of getting a measurement which is necessarily representative of a general trend. yes i i i would accept that as a general point yes that that that that that that the greater number of years, the more likely you are to get a long term trend. but er there is a a and i wouldn inevitably er one does stray into i know want it in particular points at the moment, but there is a policy consideration to be borne in mind as well, which erm does suggest that past trends should not necessarily be projected into the future. and i from a technical point of view i would support my case by saying that if opcas use it, it's good enough for us if it's good enough for opcas. . can i i know we've got two people wanting to make comments on this . mr . yes chairman, er mike cleveland county council. er i'm not quite sure what er stage you want us to b be involved on this intensive policy but i i can't comment on the the technicalities of the vacancy rates even migration rates. but erm in terms of policy, erm cleveland county council supports the approach that north yorkshire and the district councils in the area are taking. er on two counts in terms of policy. er and following what er miss indicated. erm we have a major regeneration er issue in cleveland and would like to retain as much of the population within the urban area within the compact urban area that we have as possible. and secondly we do recognize the quality of the countryside south of cleveland and need to to retain its character and the lit the character of its villages which erm in fact do add to the attractions of the area when you're trying to e erm bring in new industry. er undoubtedly a number of erm our res er our our er employed people, do live in the area immediately adjoining to the south and er the figures that hambleton have produced and our own estimates based on the national health er service records on migration, do indicate that there is a strong movement er on an annual basis into the north yorkshire area and in particular the sort of area. and we do recognize there are limits on the sort of growth in that area. so erm i can give you more detailed figures on these er if you wish. i don't i don't need to . and that's er just broadly speaking we we wish to support the general approach that north yorkshire and it's districts are taking in terms of changing the trend. . okay. mr . thank you sir, steven ,. keeping away fro the area of technicalities on migration. i think we all need to bear in mind that as far as what mr said about what the approved strategy was and what the secretary of sta of state previously said. as i read the previous documents, the strategy was to bring down the rate of development in north yorkshire and that has happened. from the late seventies, to the nineteen eighties or rather from the from the seventies, not just late seventies, to the nineteen eighties, it's come down about a thousand broad terms, a thousand dwellings a year fewer being built. and we see that strategy as having succeeded. and we applaud the county council for it. it shouldn't go to their heads. and it seems to me to follow that the migration rates which go with that lower rate are the migration rates consistent with the approved strategy. and we don't see in principle any reason to divert from them. the second point i want to make is in relation to something that has changed since the approved strategy and that is the inter-relationship between north yorkshire and west yorkshire. i know we're going to come on to this again later. i only want to deal with it in broad terms and that is that compared to earlier e i ps where west yorkshire authorities were saying, don't take too many people into north yorkshire, as you'll undermine our regeneration to paraphrase. we now have the west yorkshire authorities saying, hang about, you're loading too much onto us, by not taking your share of migration out of west yorkshire. and that seems to me a fairly fundamental shift in the regional balance of argument and need. i only have one small comment in the point made by consultants for the c p r e that one should place more emphasis on the environment. i'm afraid it's a negative comment. but the c p r e's evidence doesn't offer you anything to go on, save that the figures have been approached in the wrong way, cos they didn't start bottom up from the environment. and on that argument sir, the figures would be wrong whatever they are, whether they're half the amount the county council put forward or twice. it's a valid point but it doesn't actually help you come to a recommendation. and finally, staying with generalities on migration, i think it behoves us all to be a bit cautious because i see quite a lot of fantasy and fiction around in in this e i p and i'd be guilty of it myself at times. we're all talking as if migration can be manipulated and a share between housing for migrants and housing for local need can be er arranged by us planners according to the numbers we write down on a sheet of paper. and in my experience, that usually is a foolhardy expectation. migration has, particularly from metropolitan areas a certain tendency to keep going, a certain inexorability about it. and i would just caution all of us, when we're discussing local needs or migration, be it at the county level or at the district council level. how a little sort of warning flag that pops up in your mind to say, this may actually be largely fiction and we can't control migration anyway. i appreciate that's a useful way to discuss it, but let's not imagine it's necessarily going to turn out like that. what about? mr . yeah. roy , house builders federation. to pick on u u up a few other points that have been made. i heard mr say i think that it that the view of the h b f was that the county had no ra right to make reductions in migration. that is not the h b f evidence. the h b f evidence is that we they've no right to make any arbitrary reductions in just taking er unjustified blocks. and indeed b p g twelve, under the heading of environmental considerations says that a a authorities should have regard to environmental considerations, but recommend an environmental appraisal identifying, quantifying, weighing up and reporting on the environmental and other cost benefits of the measures which are proposed. that doesn't form part of this alteration, there is no such justification and that's our particular objection to it. in so far as a three year average is concerned, point b made by mr and erm that being taken into account the tail end of the boom. i have to say that the boom of the nineteen eighties was something of a myth. yes certainly in the late nineteen eighties, more houses were built in one particular year,depend depending on which part of the country you're in it happens to be different years. but the at the end of the eightee nineteen eighties. compared with the average of the eighties as a whole. but the average of the eighties as a whole was low in house building terms. it was the lowest decade of house building since the second world war. and in fact, on the county council's own figures, which have g got completions since nineteen seventy seven, you'll find that nineteen seventy seven to nineteen seventy nine, have higher house building rates, than the highest rate of the nineteen e the highest year of the nineteen eighties. which rather proves a point that in fact it was a low period, and therefore if you take a low period historically, which is er includes a a boom in inverted commas, within that, then overall you're going to end up with a very low figure er in total. so er it seems to me that it's particularly invalid to take the last three years. erm as far as the c p r e's point is concerned, about erm government the true spirit of government guidance, being to take environmental considerations first, i find no especial support for that within any of the p p gs. indeed p p g one paragraph four, talks about guiding development to the right places. as well as preventing development which is not acceptable. p p g three e paragraph one, says the planning system must provide an adequate and continuous supply of land for housing. all seems to me and i could quote other other references from p p gs as well to support the point, seems to me that the thrust of government guidance is balance. it is a matter of providing for the right amount of development in a balanced way. it is not putting environmental considerations first, last and if there's any left over, in between as well. er i don't wish to pursue the point made by mi mike at this stage, but i will return to it under one c. thank you. michael , hambleton district council. erm i think i'd like to pick on er up on something that mr has said about the strategy underlying the er approved structure plan. and also to support er mr . erm i think that certain elements of the structure plan erm strategy have been well documented er, the environmental issues, erm high priority to conservation, erm protection of the county's natural resources, of development restraint and relating the scale of development much more closely to local needs. however there's erm a further aspect of the original strategy which i would like specifically to draw to the panel's attention. this is that the strategy of the structure plan from the beginning was to seek a progressive reduction in the rate of house-building in the county by seeking a progressive excuse me. a progressive reduction in the rate of inward migration. and i i'd refer the panel erm to the written statement of the county structure plan of nineteen seventy nine, erm and the section entitled, the strategic framework, paragraph three nine on page ten. which states erm the strategy envisag envisages a progressive reduction in the rate of the population growth from this source, as the supply of housing land is reduced to levels more closely related to the needs arising from north yorkshire. now the original structure plan recognized that because of the substantial number of housing commitments at that time, erm it wasn't possible erm to er bring down the levels immediately. and it was going to be a long term strategy. the term, long term strategy in fact appears in a number of instances erm throughout those pages. and i'd refer you to paragraph three ten and also paragraph four two two which i'd like to quote a short erm element from. and this states erm that its effectiveness erm must be must be considered as a long term rather than a short term objective. the structure plan can not be seen for providing for a major or sudden change in direction. it's essentially evolutionary in its approach . so the point erm i wish to make erm on er mr 's observations, is that it's not the strategy of the structure plan was not simply erm to seek an initial reduction erm in the rate of residential development in the county and then that roll that rate forward in progressive erm amendments to the structure plan, hambleton district council believes that the logical interpretation of these statements is that a progressive reduction er in house building and the rates of migration should be sought through subsequent alterations to the plan. now we would add that representations which seek to achieve a continuation of past building rates, or a continuation of past migration levels, are not in accord with the strategy as originally approved. finally, i'd refer you to erm the secretary of state's decision letter of the twenty sixth of november nineteen eighty where in paragraph one he takes note of the recent justification and in paragraph six four, he states that overall, the secretary of state broadly approves the main objective of the housing policies of the plan of reducing inward migration into the county. yes i'd j i'd just like to to pick up on on two points er, one made by mr , one made by mr . erm i think er mr said i think that that c p r e hasn't actually offered a solution in this debate, just just raised questions. i don't think that's strictly true but i do think that the discussion we've heard so far er has fully justified erm the the raising of some fundamental questions about the the the the method of projections. er and the point about not offering a solution, c p r e clearly has in in erm taking to to go on to talk about the subsequent parts of policy h one and h two, the county council's figures and then doing an analysis of those in relation to the new settlement, but i appreciate chairman that erm we'll come back to that. mr raised the point about erm the environmental appraisal of of development plans, erm as set out in p p g twelve which is is indicative of a a a new er a new framework in which plans should be prepared. and and i would argue that that er an alteration to a structure plan of this significance, should should fall within the remit of p p g twelve. my understanding of what mr was saying was that because it's an alteration rather than a replacement structure plan, that guidance no longer applies. that's not my understanding of how government guidance works. peter , north yorkshire. i think mr picked up on the points that i really wanted to address in mr 's remarks. other than to say, the secretary of state didn't limit his concern to reducing rates of development. right through the decision letters, you get two elements. the effect of excessive development on the environment in north yorkshire, and the second on is a relationship with places like cleveland and west yorkshire and the need to continue to see regeneration within those areas. it was a much broader package of for the secretary of state than i think mr , er suggests. the other point which mr made on the difficulties of er manipulating migration. and i think, quite cl clearly, there are difficulties in manipulating migration. what it does require are complementary policies either side er of county boundaries. mr , er about the policies of cleveland within their area, to retain their population by making massive allocations of land. er adjacent er to a north yorkshire boundary. and if you go to places like erm guisborough, erm er and south middlesbrough there you will see a range of housing types available for range of groups in the community. if they weren't there, those houses, i suspect a large proportion of those people would now be living in north yorkshire. so there's a requirement of complementary policies. and the county council's consistently said to the west yorkshire authorities, you must make provision for a range of sites in suitable locations to help draw er development that would othe otherwise come to north yorkshire. now something's been said for certainly fifteen years er that i can remember. , michael,. several points on the the question of migration as reported or a as included by the secretary of state in in his decision letters. the first point i'd like to make is that the original decision letter dates from excuse me, twenty sixth of november nineteen eighty. we're now thirteen years further on. i think whilst the secretary of state has clearly said what he's said in that decision letter. i think we have to remind ourselves that that is thirteen years old and that circumstances have changed. not least in the neighbouring metropolitan areas, where urban regeneration is thirteen years old. there's substantial improvement, particularly in west yorkshire, and that does need to be taken into account. i'll go on to say that on the question of progressive migration restraint, i don't think anybody round this table is suggesting otherwise. the population projections that we have seen in front of us we h have discussed, are based upon what has happened in the county over the past eight years. that is that is where the migration projections have come from. the these migration flows are already constrained by s existing structure plan policies. i think the close co-relationship between the rate of building, rate of past building and structure plan requirements, shows that those policies have teeth. th that has been what's happened, there has been a reduction in migration flow. or or not in migration flow but in net inward migration. these population projections we have, the hundred percent projections of the h b f of fifty five point k, of north yorkshire of forty six point two k, of of fifty four point eight. none of the requests for housing requirement are at that level. that therefore assumes a continuing an i an increasingly progressive restraint on migration. . mr sorry mr . right, er ray , house builders federation. erm mr referred to er put great store it seemed to me on the long term effectiveness of of of reducing er building. i'd just make the simple point that a sudden twelve point five percent reduction, i referred to it this morning, er in in building, is not progressively and long term, it's a sudden change. erm and i think that erm the c p r e have most definitely misquoted what i said. i'll repeat the point. i'm not saying that p p g twelve does not apply. but i'm making the point, it does apply but it has to be justified. you have to justify the restraints that you make. my criticism of the restraints that have been applied by the county council, is that they have not been justified. and we would regard them as arbitrary. and i would also point out that we are not proposing excessive development, in one of the papers i've i've put round, and i repeat the point i made it earlier. we're talking about point one nine percent. point one nine percent of the remaining unrestrained land. as an addition. and that presupposes in that calculation, if you were taking the worst case, that that would all be greenfield land. the truth of the matter is of course it probably wouldn't be all greenfield land, but that's the worst case that i'm talking about. s o i think that it would be a very special place if it was unable to absorb that amount of development. miss . yeah. , d o e. i merely wish to reiterate government policy, as reinforced by my secretary of state, john gummer, last week in the terms of the single bu regeneration budget. and the emphasis that government places on regeneration of the urban areas. are you going to submit that document? if you wish,by all means yes . it seems to me to be important enough to be worth tabling if that can be arranged . fine fine. would you like would you like the press release? yes. please. yeah. mr , do you want to come back on the point made on the other side of the room about your arbitrary selection of building rates? i think presumably you'll be wishing at a later stage to look at what we're proposing in erm in individual districts. and one against another. i think the quite clearly what comes out erm of reading our papers and the papers of the district, is the er tremendous degree of consultation that's taken place on a number of occasions back and forth between district and making use of er of emerging working on er on local plans across the county. erm to make sure that the proposals the county council er is is putting forward are are soundly based. and we'd elaborate that when we talk about er individual districts. i think it might be worth adjourning ask if there are any more demographic . and start again . right. i'd like to say a little bit about this table. now? mm. mhm. any more points anybody wants to make on the demographic aspects? the migration rates. environment, i don't know whether that's later well i think we'll probably deal with that this afternoon. yeah. yeah. there's a harrogate. mr . thank you, er david , harrogate borough council. er one or two small points i'd like to make. mr , er a moment ago congratulated the county council in fact on the success of the strategy in reducing migration over the last ten years or so. he then went on to say it's not actually possible to control the rate of migration and i'm sure that the the s success of of the policy in the past shows that that that is not the case. that it is possible through the appropriate use of policies, to bring down levels of immigration into the county. er mr also made the point that er urban regeneration erm no longer seems to have the emphasis that it did have. er i'm sure that the er representatives from the west yorkshire authorities wi will say that their that objective is still extremely important in the in the respective u d ps. erm it seems to me that the emphasis has changed slightly in the representations being made by the west yorkshire authorities and that they're now saying that it's much more difficult for them to accommodate housing developments within their own er districts. and that therefore, that growth should be exported to north yorkshire. er another minor point, er mr n erm said that e the level of restraints that we're er seeking to or that the county council is seeking to impose, represents a sudden restriction on house-building levels in in north yorkshire. that certainly wouldn't be the case in harrogate. erm we would be allocating land through our local plan for the year two thousand and six. that restriction suddenly wouldn't be imposed in the next two or three years, it would be a gradual reduction through to to the year two thousand and six. and the point about erm er the extra development taking up only point one percent of the counties unrestricted land, erm is is statistical point really. it's even less taking up i i er land being taken up in the region as a whole, it's even less in terms of the u k. the important point is what it means for the settlement to the environment of north yorkshire. and er that level of development, at five hundred hectares, is an extremely large area of land, in very sensitive locations, particularly around the main urban areas, which are restricted to a great degree. thank you. i think we'll come back to that when we start looking at the county district by district as it were. i think miss would like to make some comment about the table, which was presented to her. i thought you might like an for the lunch hour. erm as the notes to this table indicate, it is a compilation by the panel secretary of what we believe is before us. you will have noticed there are some pregnant gaps on this table. we're not optimistic that we will fill them all, but one, we can for example talk about conversions. the more numerical evidence we can have before us, the better. as the chairman also said, the table points up some interesting questions. one of those interesting questions is, for example, the relationship between column h and column i and the way in which those relationships change as we move from one district to another. thoughts for lunch time. mr . of . er this is clearly go going to become an important schedule and i think it you will inevitably run into difficulties here on different definitions of allocations for example. erm if you er if i take the greater york area for example, erm if you er if i take the greater york area for example , the county council erm have included in their figure of four thousand seven hundred and ten units, no new allocations, is my understanding. right. yes. yeah. yeah . this is the sort of thing we want to discuss as we go through each of the areas which we shall do under matter one c. or one c. but i think there must be i i would suggest to you that you sh you should request a discussion between the principle parties here to agree what allocations they're taking, whether in adopted plans or proposed plans or previous plans and what windfalls. one of the great problems of this schedule would be, the definition of the amount of windfalls, bearing in mind that many of the local plans coming forward erm are about to be produced rather than have just been produced. yeah yeah. and i think that it is an important er qualification to this schedule that the principle parties can agree what the in inputted are. indeed and i would hope our discussion of the provision within individual districts, will amend many of these figures. certainly those which are relate to the future as opposed to what has happened in the past. okay thank you. mr . martin , north yorkshire county council. just a couple of of quick comments er er chairman just on the the the vacant co blank columns you have, j k l and m. erm whilst the county council can provide you with some figures on vacancies at a district level, we would be very loathe to make any comment on the assumptions for conversions and windfall sites. we feel that this is very much a matter for the district councils in the preparation of their local plans, with their local knowledge which is something we do not have at the county level to be able to to make comment on . yeah. i i i think we do accept that you probably not be able to fill those gaps. er some districts may have some knowledge. i mean hambleton for example having just produced their draft local plan, but other districts are not quite in that position. yeah. but eventually those gaps would be filled. that's right. but certainly wherever it is possible to put a figure in, then we would appreciate it. yeah, could i also just quickly comment on the differences between columns h and i that you've referred to. that this does to a very large extent reflect the differences in local plan preparation across the county. you have already referred to hambleton's progress . mm. yeah yeah . which is perhaps not matched with the s quite the same stage by other districts across the county. yes. yeah. i think that will be crystallized or become clarified as we get into the discussion, district by district. mr , you want to come back on that. er richard ,. very briefly, i think the county council must consider what they're going to do for conversions in windfalls. it's quite clear in in p p g three, paragraph eleven, that structure plans will make clear whether the housing provision figures include allowance from expected supply from conversions and changes of use, as well as from new building. and for unidentified and for losses from demolitions. the exercise must be done and should have been done by now. mm. yeah, my objective was not actually to start a debate but to give you some indication of where we were going to go this afternoon. food for thought. mr . leeds city council. i'd like to come back to policy on migration chair, and i'm grateful to mr for pointing out that nineteen eighty is thirteen years ag away and things have moved on in every respect demographically. in development terms. we've even got a new planning system. and i venture to suggest we've got new guidance from the secretary of state. because we in west yorkshire have got regional planning guidance is sorry strategic planning guidance issued in nineteen eighty nine yes. which tells us how to determine our housing requirements and doesn't ask us to take into account restraint in north yorkshire. but that s p g is about to be replaced by r p g isn't it? well we would all welcome that but in in its absence, i suggest that the current policy is defined by the r p g, even though that's not specifically targeted at north yorkshire, none the less, to be consistent, north yorkshire should not be entitled to a to reduce arbitrarily, it's er migration assumptions. as i understand it, s p g is your s p g is not geared to the same time horizon is. d o e. cone i just comment briefly chairman. the strategic planning guidance goes to two thousand and one. it was based on the figures that the west yorkshire authorities submitted to the secretary of state, which was on a policy as i understand it, of containing as much of their population they as as they were possible to. erm they estimated there was going to be a continued out migration, but the aim of the original west yorkshire structure plan and the p erm strategic guidance was to contain rather more of the population. regional planning guidance will go to two thousand and six. we shall have to see what that contains. yeah. i think that's all we can say at this stage. mm. thank you. i unless anybody has got a mr . erm er and mr second. just a just a very brief point. erm it relates to er something that mr said erm for er for leeds city council, that circumstances have moved on. i would suggest that indeed they have moved on erm since erm the original er decision letter of the structure plan. one area in fact that circumstances have moved on is erm on environmental awareness. i think that erm all would agree that now there is greater er concern than ever before about environmental issues. erm planning legislation and advice in p p gs erm have made the environment a far more prominent concern of planning than it was when erm the original structure plan was approved. and indeed the alterations were approved in nineteen eighty seven. erm authorities are expected to show that environmental concerns have been comprehensively and consistently taken into adv erm account in their plans. erm the planning conversation act nineteen ninety one requires the development plans to include policies for the conservation and that of the natural beauty and amenity of their land. erm p p g twelve advises that policy should be in line with the concept of sustainable development. and now erm draft advice in p p g thirteen emphasizes the need to reduce the need for travel. erm again because of the environmental con considerations. erm and we would suggest that in the light of these new environmental erm of these new requirements and advice, erm it would be unrealistic to er to expect them not to be taken into account in the structure plan and give greater emphasis to the environmental originally environmental concerns of the structure plan. thank you. mr . just to er the leeds point, er it is actually a stated aim of the leeds development plan to make adequate provision for the communities housing needs during the plan period, by identification of sufficient land for new dwellings, targeting of some provision for social housing, need groups and support for renewal of the existing stock. and then further in the plan, it deals with the er migration issue, and it says, new household t new household total still assumes that a substantial amount of housing will need to be met outside leeds as a result of net outward migration from the district. net out movement of the order of twenty seven thousand, eight hundred people is assumed over the period nineteen e eighty six, two thousand and one. equivalent to around eleven thousand households. the loss is a little below the strategic guidance figure of thirty thousand two hundred and also represents an improvement over the historic trend. this is consistent a more optimistic view of future economic performance that is appropriate in the light of the counties economic strategy. and that and on the economic strategy which is u d p based. there's a clear implication there, that the u d p policy is moving in the dire the same direction as the cleveland policy is moving. and that is to make provision for its own population and to claw back economic development er within the boundaries of the area. mr that was a long quotation, can you submit it's in it's in. my submission on that point is no can you submit the doc a copy of that paper the document. yes yes i can. it's an extract from the leeds u d p. yes i understood that. our notes weren't that fast. i have i have read it elsewhere and not necessarily having read the doc the whole of the document of the leeds u d p but on that note, since leeds leads would you like to yeah, could i just er respond to mr and say, this is not the public enquiry into the leeds development plan. er obviously we will er justify our position at that public enquiry. er i'm simply talking about a level playing field. what is the framework within which we are operating at the moment. and i'm again grateful to mr for reminding the panel of the con the constraints of the environmental policies within which we all work, not just north yorkshire authorities, we're all required to look at environmental considerations. what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. and er if if it's appropriate for north yorkshire to apply environmental constraints within the whole of its area, i'm not talking about particular districts but in in the whole of its area, then it is appropriate for leeds and bradford and the metropolitan districts to to do exactly the same thing. and that will just lead to planning chaos because obviously somebody's going to fall between the plans. thank you for r p g. on on on that note, can i suggest we adjourn for lunch, meet back here at two o'clock, prompt start. sounds of the seventies bit depleted today. alright, it's alright hey th they'll be here. top minutes you got there peter. th they're blacker than black i had a lot of trouble with the photocopier, right. that's, that's like the spinal tap album. the, the black on black album. you want to see the agenda? we can i well i the agenda's even better. i wrote it on orange paper in blue ink and it all went horribly wrong when i photocopied it so i've put an agenda on there right. becky do you mind being taped? we can't have mm? any matters arising from minutes. being taped? do i mind being taped? no we can't have any that's like readable. that's alright, it's all anyway. well, near enough. resemble him. man right. right. good. i'll never be mistaken for him in the street then. possibly. yes. we're being recorded be excited. she's very excited. no, no i'm are you coming to one seat tom? right. probably easier to write who's not here. right just. the there's two lists going round, right. one of them's just th the attendance list. and one of them is cos the gentleman who's taping the meeting would like a sort of signature for the people's consent to tape it. oh god. so like i don't and he's interested in sort of accents and, well piss off then. what are they like? ? could you all sort of pass that round . over there er you can just look at the periodic erm right erm andy. right. er first, put me down. tom, put me down. yeah, well you have to sign it. you gotta sign it. you've got to actually sign it. oh is that, that the one you've got to sign? yeah. right. er er this looks quite good. shall i put my name? mhm. we'll have an ap apology straight off. can i have a pen please? is it today? andy? right apologies. has anybody got any apologies do you want to put that? with them? yeah. well er julia what's her name,, can't attend cos she's having a reaction, in chemistry. have you got a pen? i might have actually. and er tony something's arose suddenly and er and fallen. and had to run away, sort of. wanker . i need a wee. right er plenty of minutes so i'll, i'll quickly read them out, and then if anyone's got any matters arising they know what er number one wentworth are booking both not goodricke. number two, i sent off a letter saying about people not coming and er wentworth haven't sent a i dunno. oh. er shall we affiliate to the christian union. i haven't been able to get any tickets for the word as yet. er bookings, that's been sorted out. gossip scandal, vanbrugh bop is being heavily restricted. er but in actual fact, it's like a major thing here, but he did very well. would you like to make a small report on that, mr vanbrugh? er yeah erm the smoke machine thing we got away with now, we went to see them. and er use our smoke machine as long as the porters can see how many are in the bop. long as the porters can see their own hands . erm yeah. basically, yeah. it went okay went down to four hundred people in the whole area instead of five, but apart from that. the, the bloke, the health and safety man said it was all okay. well, except for the will, will your take actually increase for four hundred? no, cos before that you were you always could get away five you were allowed five . so y your limit has now been set at five? yeah. okay. erm yeah we can take things into the hall as well now. hurray. oh excellent. very well done. thanks very much. so sort of general appreciation to vanbrugh for having their act together. yeah. i think they deserve an round of applause. right. any other business? right the quiet period i have some dates for the quiet period. ooh er. why? pardon? dates . do you wish to what like dried up, dried grapes prunes that are no longer in top condition. okay, so if you're all gonna make a note of this right. by the way. the quiet period starts on the eighteenth of may and it goes right through until the twenty first of june. right er okay that's the quiet period. er alcuin want twenty fifth anniversary but nothing's come about that has it john? no. what's that? about the alcuin twenty fifth anniversary even though it's now now no, no, no the twenty sixth. no. all the j c rs are represented so we can't fine them. shame. . right has anyone got anything they want raising from that list? no. frank. number two, electrical safety. i've had a letter and er there's various lists of people you might all have got one eventually, i don't know, but it's from the university engineer. and it's about the free electrical checks for electrical gear. and it says the remaining dates for the free inspection and testing of equipment have been cancelled. with all due respect to those who intended to avail themselves of the free offer, the first two appointments were not met with sufficient organization to permit cost-effective equipment testing. my staff were faced with untidy heaps of apparatus apparatus in equipment rooms, and received little or no help from the student representatives so and then it sort of flabbers on a bit saying they're not happy. i do hope that positive arrangements are made to contact me in writing and that we can continue to work together to provide safe working conditions. please accept my apologies if you're already working towards this arrangement of the new cancelled dates . so that's a bit poor there, i feel. so yeah that's very poor. maybe so who's er which colleges? he hasn't, he hasn't named colleges. well i'm going to our own the timetable simon. if the first two weren't very good, and we've got a copy of the timetable we could we could deduce them if they don't own up. i dunno. it's just i imagine it was derwent, i mean it mightn't have been derwent. yeah, well like please do take this seriously because it's, it's quite important as regards to insurance and having as vanbrugh proved last weekend,y we can do a good job with your stuff put together, and if like someone got fried, then you may end up in trouble. and they wouldn't be happy. personal. the electrical man from langwith. stevie cos he tried to fry himself the other week yeah. if you're, you're plugging in and it sparks, four way adaptor. don't touch it. right, so i just feel i'd read that out, so please try and work with the admin, cos we don't want to upset them. cos it's a pain. i imagine so . right. er number three i had a phone call, oh i forgot the term planner. never mind. i have seen it though, it should be good. i had a phone call last er yeah tu monday night from warwick university who were organizing a conference at the youth hostel association in york. friday, saturday and sunday, week nine. they're like, obviously that's like the first weekend of the holidays, and they wanted to book the p a and some stage blocks. and i suggested charging them like sixty pounds for the three nights. because with it being what, per night? well, he was on a, aye he was going on oh how i hate what a band. never mind about the hank wangford band. er but i said i couldn't give him a definite quote for a price, because i wouldn't have the committee. now normally like three nights would be a sort of off campus. off campus. we'll be getting two hundred two hundred quid. pound. plus is this the full p a though or is it just the speaking p a? he wants the speaking p a and stage blocks. oh that's it. so i think about a hundred and fifty pounds right. for the er can like th the late arrivals make sure you put your names on yeah, i've got my name down. sorry, i only just woke up. both. both. did you sign both? yeah. okay. woman might want to slap her name down. so with it being another student union and it being like a conference in aid of the homeless and that, i didn't really want to sort of give them a load of grief so i suggested about sixty pounds. er does anyone have any comments on this, with it being money for ents in general? well, it's money we wouldn't get otherwise isn't it? it's money you wouldn't get cos it's in the sort of holidays. erm are they going to pick it up and set it up does it involve us doing anything? no, no . er well tony's going to deliver it and pick it up on the monday. oh that's all right. and i said he'd have to pay extra for the minibus hire. t to shift the gear, cos he wants a couple and obviously, they'll have to still give the deposit. yes. yeah. but he's still not sure. when he, but then he said, like he said is there anywhere else where he could get a stage from and i explained to him that people come and hire the stage off us like saint michael-le-belfry church, who are paying in cash. so i don't know i just think it's an extra little booking that we shouldn't really turn down cos it's money we wouldn't normally get. warwick university's really nice. i've been there. it's great. but it's not in warwick though is it? it's south of it. the the booking isn't in warwick is it? no. no. in york. right er number four er the national entertainments conference organized by the n u s. i have since secured some money from executive committee to send two representatives to this committee, and it's in the last week of the summer holidays. i was sort of hoping any other people who were interested in standing for re-election might have came along to this committee to show their support. support, and interest in entertainments, but obviously they've not turned up. ah mm mm. interesting. mm. er so it's at the remit of this committee to decide who can go to the conference. er exec was saying it was probably me and somebody else or would the committee like to wait and see who's elected tomorrow, and then decide next week? like cos they said it's up to the committee as a whole. is that not at the same time as glastonbury and all that? oh wow. gla glastonbury's the first week. i'll tell you the dates of it. it's er it's in the easter holiday. how are you getting down? the sixteenth of between the sixteenth to the eighteenth of april. eh? oh. fair enough. when's glastonbury this year? june. er it's the twenty sixth of june. yeah it seems a bit early though. yeah so do you want to sort of make a decision now, or wait till next week or where is it? it's in oxford brookes university, which is probably oxford poly it used to be oxford poly, yeah. i know someone who went there. fifty pounds plus vat plus travelling and then you sort of tick in er various boxes if you're a vegan or er yeah. whatever at the moment. well sort it out then. if you're a vegan really. what is it? what do you do? i don't know, i've never been to one before. but it's like basically a conference where all the record company reps and that turn up and try to get bookings for their bands. isn't that about the p a as well? no, that's a different thing. no, that's not . could erm aha. reaction's over. julia's reaction's now been completed. it's finished, yeah. excellent. you've got to i don't know if it's excellent but ah. you've got to sign a thingy. you've got two things to sign julia cos we're being ethnographically studied. right so has anybody got any sort of strong opinions about who should go? or who wants to go? well i said i would go, but i might have been like un-elected deposed. tomorrow. in which case i won't have a leg to stand on. post on this committee. except tony says i can return to being security manager. yeah. quite correctly you haven't done it! i've had nothing to do! and i've done it very well. ah sure. right, i'll sort nobody's got a sort of decision on oh is it? that? look do w right. does anyone want to go? does anybody like, do you want to go? want a free weekend out? in oxford. in oxford. yeah, well right, well, me and andy will go then. that'll be a laugh. no, i'm busy. i'm washing my hair,me hair. yeah, but will you get to meet all high-flyer record company executives. yeah you're bound t you're bound to get on the telly then, man. it'll help your quest for stardom. yeah. a bit odd though, it's a bit pointless, as look i'm not going to be here next year. barry white might be there. never mind about barry white. right, number, we'll come back to that next week, number five the post van. on my way back from ents committee last week, erm the internal mail bloke was delivering some gear to computer services, and he left the back of the post van open. and there was a stage board in the back and when i said , what's that doing in there? he said oh we use them as ramps. heavy gear. and i'm a bit distressed at this, cos they're not designed for that's ten quid a time isn't it? aye i think we ten quid a day. i think we ought to er and write to them there was a lot of trouble early on this term when people couldn't find stage boards, and like they were all missing and it turns out that they're like the the university have claimed one. at least one. at least one. well, probably one for each van. but like probably one for each van yeah. so, there are, does this committee think that i should like write them a letter saying definitely. either we want like a lot of money, no, i think we want yeah. a lot of money. tell them that we want we wanna be paid for them, and erm all we want yeah, every day is ten pounds a day sort of thing. yeah and, and back pay. and we either want them back or we want, or we want money to buy some new ones in addition. yeah, because the ones that we've did cost like i think it was eight hundred ei pounds. e eight hundred pounds for twelve, so that's seventy pounds each. sheesh that's loads. they were a lot of money. so they look really crap as well. yes . you can either stand on them, or look very stupid on the stage. so, right, well i shall write to them, and tell them that it's very naughty. cos i i am not ha not amused. okay. they should send a representative to committee for grilling. aye. head, head of postmen? head of internal mail come. right, any other business. has anybody got any well other business? bookings. we got bookings. well i haven't done bookings. but i'll, i'll put that into . right ah, julia's got something that's quite important, that's annoying her, about derwent dining hall. which, which oh, that bit. erm derwent? give us, give us the tale julia. okay, the, the tale is that in january i booked derwent dining hall for a barn dance next week and got a phone call yesterday but i wasn't there and she rang back this morning,said oh i'm very sorry, i'm very sorry, but you can't have it, i'm very sorry . on and on. so i said you know we've got p and p out, we've started selling tickets. erm we haven't bothered to book a stage because derwent has one, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. and then later on, oh and then she was going to see room bookings and try to find me another dining hall cos i said it's pretty late notice, and she said oh no, it's a week and i thought well i had booked it two months ago. well, it's a week for both of you. not just a week for you. well that's it. what she'd had was a double-booking, effectively, cos she'd had this dinner which was meant to be in the private dining hall, but the numbers had suddenly shot up, and because they'd said originally they wanted either the private dining hall or the main dining hall depending on numbers, she should have really booked them both and decided later and told me to like try somewhere else, but she didn't, she told me yeah the dining hall's free. off you go sort of thing. erm but then she rang back later, i don't know whether she contacted room bookings to try and get me a dining hall, but she said they might be able to have their dinner in the s c r. so that's alright, i'm okay. if not has any one booked the for next wednesday night? i don't want to book them now, but i'd just like to know. i don't think so, no. right, i'll leave it for now. can i just say, this has shades of the kingmaker fiasco? yeah, yeah. yes, it's like just walk all over the students again. erm for, for like it's her mistake, it's not the fault of the other people not booking, cos they had said they might want the main dining hall. no but they're still giving, yeah but the priority but it's and, yeah. yeah. for tho for those that, for those that missed that er, last year alcuin j c r booked kingmaker as part of their massive big mega-media global world tour. and then a fortnight before the end of the, the summer holidays they were told they couldn't have the dining hall because the day after the freemasons were having their that was the day after. and it wasn't even the same day, but the day after, and as a result, er a man called john , who we don't like. who we don't like. er and who's descended from the . is he? gosh. ? yeah. oh there you are. yeah, anyway, he comes that's amazing. from gladstone and gannon, and er he gave an awful lot of people at the s u and at alcuin j c r a lot of grief over the provost, who then wrote them a letter saying i, jim am the fault of all this and just generally made the students look even dafter for as though they just couldn't organize . they just couldn't organize anything and as a result that's why we'll probably never get kingmaker or the ned's atomic dustbin. or anybody else from gladstone and gannon. anyone else from gladstone and gannon. so we don't need them. there's not a lot we can actually do. apart from, did you get your room booking form back? yeah, i've had it confirmed by room bookings. oh, i'll have to see wh she's going to ring me this afternoon and say whether they can do it in the s c r. i'm gonna try and persuade her that they can, because there are only forty people at this dinner and they'll look stupid in the middle of the dining hall. mm. we could dance round them, there'd be enough space, you know. well offer the, offer the forty people reduced tickets for the barn dance. but it's the way she's saying oh i'm so sorry but i have to go back on it when she's agreed to something. write a letter or not? well i think it's been done that's the problem. yeah, well well, i'll write a letter obviously if she doesn't yeah. sort it out. if she sorts it out today then if, if, if, if it turns out that, yeah. the point is that as far as room bookings are concerned yeah, she may not have sent it through to you're, you're in the clear. room bookings, the first one. she probably just booked them yeah, this is, this is the problem. the private dining hall assuming their numbers would be quite low. so it may not be a problem with room bookings it's probably a problem with jo . mhm. yeah. had problems with her before . it's just the principle of the thing that a booking's a booking, whoever yeah. yeah. whoever might have done it. if you've booked it, then you should get it, i mean just because it's next doesn't mean it should get priority. yeah, well she was going on about bringing lots of money into the college but she might have to pay two hundred and twenty quid for a barn dance band if she's not careful. yeah, well i think that she, yeah, they would be liable for that. didn't i mean the same, same sort of thing happened when wentworth put on the twenty fifth of may, that a week before sheila said er oh you're not having this. and that's it and the contracts had been signed and everything and it was ha. most painful and dangerous. and i know it's worthless. yeah. ow. right so you stood on my toe then. you have our full support, i'm sure. right, anybody got any bookings? oh i've got some any other business. erm oh alright could we have it minuted that erm derwent get a couple of p a hires free from . okay, yeah. ah well we'll discuss this. this will come up in any other business. we'll discuss this. right. i believe on saturday, you hired the s u p a? we did. yeah. and it was late? very late. how late? it was er, it was er two hours late. no it wasn't two hours late it was. it was an hou cos it was an hour late, which it was late enough for us to not to know if it was coming, so we had to go and get another p a, otherwise we'd have gone to get, there was no other option. we waited because the band were supposed to be soundchecking at six. what, what time did the band arrive? they pick the comedians arrived at six o'clock. right. what, if the comedians had have been an hour late, would you have booked another comedian? some another comedian? that's ridiculous really, isn't it? answer the question. no it's not. it's a serious question. if the comedians had been an hour late, would you have booked another comedian? the point is, that the s no, i'm the point is please answer this question. no, no just, just please answer the question. don't get all . come on. the point of view that the p a was booked for four thirty, so that we could set it up pete, that's not the point. that's not the point. for six, so that they could soundcheck. yeah,s s surely the, the point is, we'd have booked another comedian if it had been possible to book another comedian at that time, which it obviously wasn't. but it was obviously possible to book another p a. i mean that's but why your question's irrelevant. just, just let me mention that you, you told me that you'd gone to y s l, yeah. and you were there for half past five. we left here at half past five. no, you said you were there for half past five, because you had to get there before half past five in order to book it. we had, we had to get there before six, when they shut, we had to go at half past five,. well i was told you had to get there before half past five. no. no. we left here at half past five. an hour after we were supposed to meet you. is that, is that don't want to cause any hassle,but you know can't i like cut the baby in half? what i mean? well i wasn't there so i don't know. how much how much did it cost you to hire the one hundred and fifty. hundred and fifty pounds. plus also . no loads more. so you spent a hundred pounds more? yeah. than we would have done. i hate having to make these sort of decisions. well i think we should vote. i think we should give them two i think we should get our free yeah. two free goes. free goes on the p a. that's not . it's, but then you see that's not just a question of two free goes, it's all well and good for you to say yeah. two free goes, but this involves two nights by john. yeah. two nights two nights out of john's like busy project yeah. time. you've got to bear this in mind. it's not as simple as you can have the p a, because you need someone to set it up. well give them the hundred quid then. yeah. i know but we haven't got a hundred pounds to give them. yeah we haven't got any money. yeah, i mean we could we could give you the p a for the bop, which would be, you know, doesn't involve as much effort. what, yeah, what i would suggest is that if you have some existing bookings, then, if you have two existing bookings then you just have those, you just you, you, you don't pay for those. for like next week ? do y do you have a, you have a booking for the erm barbecue now? for the p a? mhm. you do, it's in my diary. is it? erm well erm,guess so. did you do that? you definitely booked it. if it's in the book. i may have done it. i don't put these things in automatically, erm we're going to have a week three event possibly as well. c could we erm get back to you on that one and talk to . well just, just find yourself a c couple of bookings, and we'll sort . two. two bookings. two bookings,. but it was an accident, i mean yeah i realize that but the thing is if we'd had a phone call to say look, we're going to be this late, yeah, well i wasn't then we'd have been alright. i wasn't there, so i don't know. something that if ever, ever sorted out the bleeper hopefully in future i'll be on bleeper, and then if that sort of thing happens bleep me but it'll still, yeah yes i mean fundamental point. the porters do not have a key to the cupboard. that is i mean that is against the law, because they have to have access to that cupboard in case there is a fire. i think that's where the principle is, cos if we, if we that's where the real problem lies, if you could have had the p a, if you could have gone into the cupboard and got it, even though we'd turned up at ten past six, there wouldn't have been a problem. yes. there wouldn't have been a problem. because you could have put it in approximately the right places in the room, and we could have come along and we could have been running, wired it up. so erm for seven o'clock. yeah yeah, we could have had it going in twenty minutes. still a lot of hass though, cos they don't know if you've just completely yeah. forgotten about it. yeah, that's . well no i mean we di couldn't contact any we have i mean i see, i see your worry factor here . but if you, if you could have got the stuff over there, it would have been a lot simpler. the thing is, the thing is, the thing is i can see where everyone's coming from, but it's, it's thinking about it in the future, well i do think that the porters ha should have a key. and i think they sh be but the porters have also got the problem that they don't want to let just anyone no, well what i was about to say was that you could, you could give them then if we know it's going to be certain people, we can give them names. i mean you know the, if you give the porters a form, they'll mm. give you a key for the minibus. yeah. now if you give the porters a form for a p a, mm. they'll give you a key to the p a cupboard. i mean, you know, you might find i mean i can take a form up to the porters in goodricke and they'll give me a key to a minibus. would that actually have solved anything, because if you hadn't turned up, they'd have still been without a p a. well we're not saying that we wouldn't have turned up it's just that we were unable to turn up. but we didn't know. yes no, i know that i know that. but, i mean so that's all we're saying that . it wasn't just us though, there's rich as well you see. i mean yeah but if you'd have phoned us, then we would yeah. have known you'd have been late, and we wouldn't have panicked. yeah, but at that time we were s trying to speed back to york breaking all known records. i think i think i actually did it in record time. yeah. and i fell asleep. and he fell asleep. went into a warp factor, just like on star trek. come on, settle down. settle down, okay? right, why don't we erm give derwent two free bookings, you know bookings that have already happened or are about to happen for free, mhm. erm explore the key off the slate that you explore the key issue with the porter, and erm, hopefully get the bleeper sorted out or something , so that there's some system for shaking things up. come down to a room and demand the absolute the absolute fundamental problem is thes thes is that there's not there's not enough people running, the running the p a. there aren't enough people who know how to do that. i mean like john's out just about i'm out every night this week. every night this week. in fact i'm out twice tonight. so you know, it's not a fun job, really. you know, if you ne if you're busy every night and you're a third year student trying to do projects, it's can you not train anybody else up? well, i've said i'll get trained up, yeah, well i mean i've, i've got to finish off this term's work you see there's peo the people have got commitments and they're not wanting to take them on. and then there's other people that can do it, but, you know, people only come for like every couple yeah. of times and it you need to be out there and there are a lot to there's possibly learn how to do it. five or six other people on campus who could potentially do it with a just one night's look an and a diagram. just that they, they're not willing to do it for nothing, and it's going to cost you twenty pounds a time on top of the p a hire. you know, when you get paid twenty pounds a night for driving the minibus, and you get paid nothing for running the p a, and it takes equally long if not, if not longer perhaps we should look into something . and then you only get paid, well the p a gets forty quid. well people don't want to pay sixty quid for a p a, cos mm. it's getting expensive then. why don't you ask one of the equipment reps if they can't . it's already been proved that they can't yeah, i mean in writing now. i mean it isn't an easy thing to set up. yeah, yeah, i understand but potentially you, you can make a right mess. but i'm not saying that people are incompetent, but it takes a certain amount we want to be convinced. yeah. mm. right. prove yourselves . okay, we'll, we're digressing. we'll look into this. right, er riot woman, or whatever you wish to be called. girl,. grrr. to ask for some money for monday's bop, cos we lost about forty quid. i mean, we heard that if we'd come here before, you might have given us money, and we wondered if we could have it in retrospect. what? pardon ? there was a bop on monday, yeah. and we lost about forty quid. and we yeah. wondered if we could get some money from the students what, this, this is a bop put on by what was it, a f a m s was it? no it was just it was just us. and the money was g gone missing. what us, though? just a group of people? riot girl. it's not erm any society or anything it just . right. i don't think you'll any money out of the student union. sorry? i really don't think you'll get any money out the student union, and you won't get any money out of ents, because ents is bankrupt. to put it bluntly,any money. if you're a society you might get, you know, you should societies grant. we're not a society yet, so i mean thinking about that, we have tried to become a society before. i think for a start we haven't any money. but er just to try to be a so try to become a society, and then make, make it clear you do have a debt. mhm. what and i mean rave soc get away with it all the time. it's just if you come finance committee oh we know about that, problems like being , so do you think we can become a society with a debt? you can become a society yeah, and because you can then use your erm what's it? m r g. m r g to try and pay off some the debt, if such a thing ex i don't know if you can manage to get an m r g. yeah, one potential problem with that is that finance committee have allocated all the society grant mm. money. lot of money. yeah. yeah. well, now the thing is, right what i've thought might be like a good thing, er cos we all like entertainments, is like if riot girl were to become a society, well we're trying to. yeah. and everyone round this table could like join. that would cost you a pound and that would give you some cash, and it would also look good, and what is it a pound fifty you've got to pay? and i'm quite sure everyone would like pay a pound fifty to join this nice society, and become like riot girls. bops. and could get into bops free. and that would give you a bit of ready cash, and also it would give you a standing to try and get something from finance committee. you see i mean you, basically you need to get a lot of people i know there's no money in finance committee at the moment but i'm sure that could be rectified ultimately. i think you've come to really the wrong committee to try and get money . you've come to the wrong committee to try and get like a cash handout, but er we do appreciate the problems of putting on entertainments, and bops on campus. in a big way. a four figure way. probably more, probably more so than any oth anybody else on campus, yeah. but i think it would be very nice if everybody joined riot girl, just to show sort of affiliation of events on campus. so i think we should put that to a vote. yes. having been down the pub, i ain't voting. yeah. that was a yes. for what? for joining riot girl. everyone? i believe in freedom of speech,fucking off for ents, i'm sure. all those ? one two three four. all those against? oh. ooh. it was carried. yeah, get it in. right can i please? yes,. you get a societies pack, and have to fill all these names in. well we could yeah well get a photocopy of one of these lists, and be alright. yeah get a photocopy of this. hang on.? it's about . right. you can vote. i'll bring it back. i'm not on the committee. doesn't matter, still in the room. stand in for any committee member, if you oh that's true, that's true. you could be standing i can think of several. ooh. right, is there any more bookings? yeah. goodricke. can we book the p a every monday that's free next term? every monday? every monday until the quiet period. oh god. yeah, until the quiet period. ah, they're taking over alcuin's bop night. when, when, when is it free next term, when is the p a free next term? i've made a new term planner actually but i've forgotten to bring it. it's never free, it always costs you ah! er well, shortly after alcuin decide mondays is a dead loss and alcuin's really good for one thing. would do. one two three nine. can we leave it no. because we . m and monday's the last day. i know, that's you can only have weeks one two and three. weeks one two and three? what dates is week three? erm three week twenty twenty six, three and ten. yeah. why can't they have week four i thought ? because quiet period starts after tuesday. i suppose you could have it on monday well yeah, you could have it on you'll get the last bop. last bop before the quiet period. yeah. whoo, very exciting yes? okay. right, any more booking is the p a free thursday week ? week? thursday week two . oh. it might be out all thursday week two. er, yeah. er well could we have the p a and lights, we might be having an event that day so what? i'll let you know obviously . right, vanbrugh yeah? yeah. i'll bring them up later on. come in hello. is this ents committee? certainly is. right. so? erm, well you'll have to wait, we're busy now. come in and join us. join the festivities. right, so your event week two? yes. mhm. right is that like just a bop or is it people, and bands on campus, campus bands. okay. and you're j c r? yeah. yeah, er when's the p a free in freshers' week next year? no comment. all week. that will be left to the next entertainments secretary. er diary doesn't go that far. oh, okay then. yeah. no concern of mine either. yeah. well it will, because i'm, i'm taking it with me when i leave, i'm sorry. right then,. right, okay. can we just get it clear, has goodricke bop now changed to monday, or is this not a permanent ? well as long as we can't get it on a tuesday . cos we've got it. yeah. yeah. never worked for alcuin. some crackers. shut up. anybody else? yeah, erm we've, the amnesty's booked the p a for week three, friday week three. for the jazz thing? for the jazz concert. yeah. erm, last year, we were given it for free, erm right, i remember, yeah. and someone and we've now been told that we have to pay for it, and i yeah, i, i organized a cut price deal for amnesty. right, can we organize next year? well, that was for it, wasn't it? that was there was only booking amnesty ? mhm. there was i think last year's and there was this year's. and this year we're doing it for about half price or something. i knocked, yeah, i knocked about twenty pounds off. it's already done. how much erm sorry i didn't amnesty have already had a free booking. they've had a yeah. free booking? well, a cheap yes. booking. i gave them a was it this term? they have had a free booking. wasn't the alcuin bop was it? no no. that, that was someone else. it was er no, i'm sure that that was, i'm sure that's the one mean, week three next term. they came and they said we had a free booking. we said we wouldn't charge them for the stage blocks. and we gave them cos they wanted the blocks and the boards. right. and i said thirty five yeah. pounds instead of fifty five. right. okay. do you know what the arrangement was last time, because i think we got it all for free? no, that was last year. yeah, but that was then the arrangement was a fit of generosity. we didn't have many bookings, right. er, and we weren't very busy, so it wasn't such a fag. er thank you. you you your just the same as the i know i didn't realize did i? don't make me take two . well, maybe they have, is that what you want, i mean i'm not i mean er what're you after? you can always seek financial help from the executive because they can give money out campaigns selective. well, no, you can ask them. but what you are saying is you're not going to give it for free? that's correct. what we're saying is we're giving you it for half price. ents won't, ents, ents won't give it for or you can pay full price somewhere else. free because they're too mhm. bust like a hundred and fifty pounds. but if you go and ask executive, they might give you money, cos they're kinder in there. they've got money more solvent than us. they're richer than us. we've got a big hole to fill,and it's getting filled in forty pound lumps at the moment. right. . okay. is there any any other business? right well now, the secret bit, this happens to be john's birthday, and i've got a cake. great. the candles er just wait, just wait, it'll all come good. ah look, she's back. here you go. is this, i mean is this real, will these people really join? i will. i will. they're all here, and they didn't vote. well, there's a problem that men might not be allowed to join anyway because . ooh! can't do that! no you can't . there's no way you can affiliate to the er the student union if you don't let men join. you can't be a un you can't be you can't be a society. well, women's group get special i want to join. erm they already get special dispensation. have to go to executive committee to discuss that.. well again it's i don't think it's allowed. i think you should i don't think they'd ever let a men's committee yeah. a men's society. there's blokes in huggy bear. i didn't know he was . this is relevant. anyway you're detracting here, the candles are burning down. so i think we should all sing happy birthday to john, and it'll be like a really good end to this bloke's tape. it's going to be on the tape! right, after three. happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear john, happy birthday to you . make a wish! go on, down in one. right, that's it. the end. don't forget to vote for somebody tomorrow in the election. somebody. . yeah, i'd stay until later as well to take you further on in your about nationalization. er had it been something that you'd long sought after you know, like like in the mines where it had been an issue for some years? you know, during the war years ? er well nationalization during the war, the er nationalization and war news were interspersed you know, i mean the when you hadn't any war news to talk about, you spoke about nationalization. after the war we'll get nationalization you see. but that was er er a a faint hope. before before we could get nationalization, we had to get a labour government. and i and many others thought that the tories, after the war was finished, the tories would walk in. by reason of the fact that churchill was the great leader. and never in my wildest dream did we imagine that labour would get in with the resounding majority that they did get in. but however nationalization was always on the minds of the railwaymen. and we learnt of course the minds of various other big heavy industries. do you recall nationalization being an issue that was talked about in the work place, you know was it talked about in the buffets and in the union meetings and yes. erm firstly i mean,du during the war in particular? during the war well while the war as going on nationalization was brought up in the buffets by what we would term now, the activist or militant labour people. they were always broaching that subject, nationalization. because they believed and they got me to believe at the time, that nationalization would be the cure for all our ills. it would cure unemployment, it would give the workers control of their own industries and that everything would be hunkydory. there was a lot of talk but of course you always had these people who sons and that in the army, and they would always come in with the war situation. so as i said, it was interspersed you know it was . but i don't think there were any anyone that i knew on the railway were not against nationalization. they were all for nationalization, because they believed that nationalization was the only way to solve the problems of the development the future development of the railways. because you must remember during the wars, the railway stocks were being run down. you see even the the workshops, the railway workshops were working very hard you know, but they were only making make do and mend style. and there were no new stock built during the wars. so it meant that by the end of the war, the railway stock, the carriages, locomotives and all that was on their last stages. okay? and that's why at that time, near the end of the war,and when the talk of nationalization become greater, the hope of nationalization because as i said before, never in our wildest dream did we think that labour would get in with such an overwhelming majority. but the the the railway stock was in such a bad state, that that's when people started the real activists of the labour movement really started talking about confiscation instead of compensation. because there was a great tory voice sounded throughout the press and the mass media you see, that er on compensation for the railways, if there ever should be nationalization that they had to be amply compensated you see. and then they come in the labour activists come in with this, no compensation, confiscation, the was worth tuppence you know. but i don't know how it was, but it came about that this confiscation business was dropped just as soon as we labour got into power. that the government got into power, that seemed to be put aside, confiscation. no we had to be fair, was the saying, for the leaders. we have to be fair, we've got to give them the compensation. you see, a fair price for their stocks and their holdings. now that disappointed me i know, because i knew from where i stood, that the stuff was practically worthless. it would have to be renewed as soon as the the nationalization was prepared to go, the government took over. now workers control, that's what it meant to me. i was gonna take you on to that you know. what did workers understand by and mean by nationalization and what did they want from nationalization? well was workers control a prominent part of people's thinking on this like? it was a prominent part of people's thinking, worker's thinking. that they had more say in the running of their industry of the railway. now the first disappointment in that respect was the appointment now i may be wrong but i'm i'm i'm s i think i'm right here the appointment of the chairman of the railway executive, that's what it was first called. it wasn't called the railway board. the first chairman i'm sure it was, lord robbins alf robbins. a labour minister. now i might as well say it here, at this point that alf robbins was just another social democratic party member. that's what he was on that at that time. and this is forty eight, nineteen forty eight. he was a right, right and ultra right labour party, and he was made the first chairman. now i knew him for what he was as a right softly softly. you know, all things to all men man. but he was our he was on the national executive. i don't know what position, ministerial position he held i just forget, at the time. but he was a prominent figure from the labour party. and he was made chairman of the railway executive. now i smelt a mice then you see, i i my own personal thoughts were, what's what's the idea of appointing instead of a a real go ahead executive member, why did they put him in. i learned later that he was just another capitalist. so after about a year, eighteen month, i could see by his dictates that we weren't going to have worker's control in the real sense of the word. true they set up er local departmental committees and sectional councils. and they had the whole machinery negotiations fixed you see. but as the years went on, they were useless i mean er they were just talking shops. and the management always came out tops you see. so within about three years, my hopes were dashed. i realized then that nationalization, the great the great nationalization enterprise was simply state capitalism. it was just capitalism continued. only the people were paying for it off of taxes. instead of the well to do investing in in shares and that. it was the people that were being drawn by the nose and paying for the whole thing. er how did you see nationalization being put into effect? er i mean in the sense of actually er on in the railway yards itself er themselves. you know were there any immediate changed that er were apparent to you? no. there were no immediate changes, it went on from private enterprise, the changeover we were told at the time that we were just just to carry on the way we'd been doing. see. er there were some dubious appointments as er yardmasters. see before nationalization, it used to be men who rose form the ranks that got the jobs, you know, men that knew the job. after nationalization, there was quite a number of university graduate appointed as yard masters, station masters. without any railway experience. they read up the transport laws at university and all that transport and everything. but they had no practical experience you see. and i remember one, a yorkshireman he was appointed yardmaster of portobello yard,and where i worked. the three yards that were under him. and he had assistants at each yard you see. he was a hale fellow well met sort of yorkshireman you know, a bluff yorkshireman. a nice enough chap and he was knowledgeable in theory you see, but when it come to the practical experience and the practical doing of the work, he would just say, well what did you do the last time jimmy? and i said like this. i would tell him. well do the same. you see? so that was er the blue eyed boys period. but strangely enough that went out, it came in with a flush see? and there were you could see them all over british railways. ex graduates you know, university boys getting positions there. and the story was that they were er ex railway shareholder's sons or you know all this. that's how they were placed in the position you see. alf robbins, lord robbins as he was then, knew what was going on. he must have agreed to all this. getting the go ahead. and he went along with it. but as i said, that finished after about five or six year. and then they started recruiting or or or promoting them from the ranks you know. step steps. each step you see was promotion and er i think about nineteen fifty five, we started about nineteen fifty five aye after about seven years. the railway started to what i could only term, improve. it started to improve. because there were men there who had the experience, knew what they were doing, knew what their mates were capable of and not capable of you know. knew their shortcomings and their capabilities. and that's when the railways i thought, nineteen fifty five to nineteen sixty, there were a great surge forward. ideas coming forward. trade unionism taking a grip. on the railways. a real grip. there had been trade unions before of course, and er activity but not to the same extent between fifteen er nineteen fifty five to sixty, there was a great surge forward. the railways railwaymen were demanding more, because they felt quite rightly that they were giving more to the railways. and therefore they wanted the rewards that go with it. nationalization was dead as far as i was concerned, we were back in the rat race. and that's when we started putting in for annual wage increases. see previous to that it was maybe every five years you put in for a wage increase a wage application. between er in the late nineteen fifties, that's when we stated going. going ahead and it started with annual wage increases because the wage increases that you did get were all about three, four or five percent at the time. and that only lasted you you see. of the living in the standard of living was slightly better for those who were working. slightly better than it had been previously. i'd like to take you back to that this whole idea that you've you've expressed about the idea of of state capitalism. er how nationalization in effect as you've described it, existed for about maybe ten years yeah. before people twigged if you like, that what had actually happened amounted to hardly anything more than a change of sort of managerial personnel. er is that how you you saw it? aye well you see when we did twig,the great deception you know, and it's worthwhile recalling here that we had richard marsh i think he's a title now sir richard marsh. he was another labour great labour mouthpiece. another s d p man see. lord beeching, a tory tory. he came and he just slashed the railways you see. it seemed that they were either capitalist or social democrats which i mean a social democrat by any other na a tory by any other name's just the same. i mean there there's no difference. as i've said before you're either red or or blue or black and white. but anyway, the railways there was a spurt on between in the late sixties on the railway and that's when i think i was sure, not only because i was a branch secretary at the time but i'm sure that all the british railways there was a greater awareness of the fact that we had been deceived by the word nationalization. it wasn't anything like workers control as we had expected. it was just old natio old private enterprise, private railways back in, only there were no different region, there were no l m s, l n e r, g w r or that. they were all one. i'd like to take ba take you back to the the changeover itself. do you remember much about the the attitude of the of the old l n e r management you know, er especially during the lead-up from labour coming to power, and it becoming more obvious that nationalization would in fact take place? do you remember much about how the old managers felt about that? the old managers? aye well of course at that time, in nineteen forty eight, i was detached i mean i i didn't know much about the management's thinking, or their pronouncements. see. but i can remember one thing that happened in in that respect was that the superintendent came down to a meeting or he wanted to see us after nationalization. and it was all about er, now that th we're nationalized railway nationalized, it meant that we could er gain promotion and we wouldn't be confined to the one section. there'd be no l n e r, no l m s, see. well that was the only two railways that affected us. the l n e r and l m s. and er i could see then that i knew that superintendent in the private days of the railways. and few years, and yet he said a long face, if you wasn't you wasn't happy with the thought of running a district that was nationalized see? but it as it turned out he needn't have had no fears. see? because he was just doing the same job as he'd been doing under the private under the l n e r. management were more conciliatory when nationalization came on. see in pre-nationalization days, a superintendent was the big chief. when he appeared in the yard, you had to jump it. the red carpet literally was out for him you see. but after nationalization, it was obvious, when he did put in an appearance or and that was very rare, there wasn't the same palaver for his visit. he would just came and went into the yardmaster's office and had a word or two with him and then he would maybe ask to see the staff local representative and the local committee. and he'd have a word, er how's everything going along? alright and er you're quite happy with things as they are and that? and that would be the extent of his visit, he would have a cursory look round the yard and away. but there was no er pointing this out and pointing that out, that's wrong, as he did as they did in the pre-nationalization days. it seemed to me that they assumed and air of couldn't care less you know that that was their attitude after nationalization. couldn't care less and they were just there until their time for retirement was . they didn't like it at all. they didn't like it at all. but as i said they need have no fear. you made some interesting points there with your s er your suggestion that at least the idea of a different relationship with management was there. you know, there were knew structures and new procedures for the unions and yes. that kind of thing. how did you how do you recall that? well the there was a new machinery of negotiations set up. and strangely enough, the branch, the branches were not in the machinery of negotiations. they were excluded from the negotiations. but what happened was, if a member of my branch had a complaint, he would come to me as secretary and complain. and i should have told him, if you've any complaints, come to the branch meeting and make your complaints there. but er i knew that it wasn't poss always possible for one to be at the branch meeting you see. so anyway, that was it, you had to go to your branch and complain, make your protest in writing, see, and the branch secretary would reply to your letter okay, and they'd ask for maybe a few more details about the complaint. and then he would take that complaint, if the branch committee approved it, you see, or nine times out of ten if the branch secretary thought it was a valid case, he would send it in a letter to the sectional council. you see, from portobello branch to the sectional council scottish region. er stating the case you see, stating out the case. and urgent you know on it immediately see. well that went to the secretary of the sectional council, and that's when the negotiating machinery of negotiation started. it would maybe take they held meetings ev the sectional councils held meetings, every three month, every quarter. now there were sectional councils in every region you see, for different regions,scotland . scotland was one region. and the management, top management in in scotland would meet er representatives for the n u r and they would discuss it. the a s l e n f, they were a different they had a kno they had a sectional council of their own you see, for local men. and then there was a sectional council number three, that was for guards, shunters, ticket collectors and various other grades. and they would have that meeting and they would maybe last, the meeting would maybe last a week you see, it was held in glasgow. and er at the end of it you were issued with a a report you see. the sectional council minutes, the minutes would come out, and they were di distributed to all the yards and depots. and you would see the case of er er j , head shunter , protests at being superseded for yard foreman's job at . see? well of course the branch secretary would give all the data, information regarding that, you see, and why s as a protest why he shouldn't have been superseded you see. and er invariably it would come out, the reply not conceded. or t protest not susp not sustained you see. it was amazing, i think you had one about a hundred conceded. so much for the n u r and a s l n f. although i will say, the driver's union, the a s l n f, their sectional council got more from their anyway, than did the n u r . i'm sorry to say. because well i don't know they seemed to be more active. more interested in the real issues you see? on the railways and the conditions of their members. but that was a fact under the sectional council number three, the one that i was represented by, they seemed to be poor. or the management seemed to be better, okay? but then if that not conceded or protest not sus sustained, that would the letter would come back to the official letter would come back to the branch secretary you see, and he would look at it, and he would put it to his branch and if they wanted to go further, that went to euston house, the n u r headquarters, euston house. for the to go forward to the r s m c and that was railway staff national council. that was held in london you see, the headquarters. management, top management and the n e c or the n u r and that's when it went to there and it was discussed and dealt with at that level. there was another higher body, like an arbitration council,dealing with railways, but er that was very seldom used. it was more for wage negotiations and various other conditions of service, general conditions of service, not individual. i'd like you to just summarize your your your feeling on on nationalization. er that kind of idea that er you know, whether any changes at all that you thought that you appreciated er in that made workers feel that they were in fact a more important a more important part of their industry? just to summarize your feelings on nationalization . aye. well i don't think we felt any more important, at the beginning, we had great hopes you see, on nationalization, but they quickly faded you see, and we were soon lulled into a sense of hopelessness. very soon you know, months rather than years. we knew that right away that there were there were no future. here labour government by the appointment of lord robbins, and one of calibre who couldn't care less. he gave me more more decisions against the workers than he ever gave for them. and er he wanted the railways to be run, like clockwork. without any concessions at all. his wage concessions were negligible. . and that's when we saw that the railways would just as well have been run under private enterprise. nationalization was a pie in the sky, and the pie fell to the ground very soon. well generally speaking, how did that that awareness affect your feeling and other people's feeling about the forty five government? er the ninety forty f er the nineteen forty five government? did you feel that people had that same kind of disillusionment with the government more generally speaking? yes. there was one great hero, in that nineteen forty five government and that was ni bevan. he seemed to me and many others, i think we were in common agreement, most of the people that i was associated with, that ni bevan was the only man that really cared you know, he really cared. he came from wales of course, from the valleys and that. and er i heard him speaking twice when he was in edinburgh, wonderful orator, but not only that, you see we have neil kinnock, present day, good orator, good articulate . but he lacks the intensity of feeling that ni bevan had, he lacks it. i mean the the caring feeling oozed out of ni bevan. when he introduced his national health service, a wonderful scheme, everything was free, it was paid of the taxes you know, as it should be as beveridge envisaged you see? ni bevan took it up, introduced it, put it through parliament, and then lo and behold, it was running wonderful wonderfully well. everybody working cha and women were getting false teeth and new glasses. i was gonna ask you how working people what working people felt about it when it was first introduced ? aye oh, this was the greatest thing the greatest thing that could have happened to the people. because prior to that we only had the lloyd george nineteen eleven scheme. where the wage earner only got free dental treatment and free medical treatment you see. the wife and family the wife and family didn't the wife and family didn't er benefit in any way. the worker paid his contribution and that was for own benefit. shocking when you think of it isn't it, your wife and family. you had to pay them five shillings a visit to the doctor, and then your spectacles or any dental treatment you got, you had to pay for them. a shilling a week you know you had to pay out. but anyway as i said, ni bevan put that through. he was greater than attlee. attlee was a good leader i believe, he went about it surreptitiously you know, he wasn't a vociferous sort of chap, he was a quiet man. but er i his lieutenants were there and i'm sure he looked to see that they were doing their job properly. ni bevan in particular and then, when gateskill came on, maybe that's going a bit too far ahead, but never mind. i remember gat er ni bevan, he tore gateskill to ribbons. when gateskill was leader of the labour party. when he proposed a shilling on prescriptions, one shilling and that's at that time, ni bevan started himself started to deteriorate. but i can remember ni bevan calling gateskill for everything for this. it spoilt his whole scheme of things. gateskill. and of course from then they've increased, increased, increased and still it's the national health service is a farce now. it strikes me though that at that time, at the time of the forty five government that, rather than nationalization, the national health service became that was the centre . the centrepiece. the national health service was the greatest thing, the greatest achievement of the labour government. there's no doubt about that. if people just sit and think about it, the national health service you know? security and health that's from the cradle to the grave, it's a wonderful a wonderful thing. and ni bevan obviously felt that for he fought tooth and nail to get it through. mind you must remember at the time when he was fighting to put it through, the bill through parliament, the whole b m a, british medical association were against him, to a man. they had the socialists medical association well there'd be they'd be on the side of bevan. but er the b m a were totally and absolutely against this er national health service. but he won. and it was mainly destroyed by the labour party, future labour parties. mainly destroyed. i'd like to take you back to one or two more aspects of your actual work on the railways. erm from the war onwards. er you were still a head shunter for i think about five years after after aye. aye. the war. er i wanted you to maybe describe some more of the responsibilities and duties you had in that job. i mean, making up the rosters for instance. er how was that done and how were they handed out and that that kind of thing? aye well you see there was a a local departmental committee, of which i was the employees' employees' side, of which i was secretary. and it was a responsibility of the l d c. it was the management's side and the workers' side combined. their responsibility was to see that the rosters were properly worked out you see. and er inevitably of course, we always fell to the secretary you see. and i used to make out the rosters. . and then soon after that, the rest day, the five day week came out you see, where you got a rest day every week. and it was the l d c who were responsible for making out the rest day rosters you see. the top management didn't bother about that, they know left it to the local you see. as long as it didn't you see. now it was strange at the time, i only represented the shunters and the guards and the lower grades, i didn't represent the supervisors, yard inspectors at the time. but the yard one of the yard inspectors came to me and said, i wonder if you would make up a roster for the supervisors . of which there were six, seven. so i made a roster out for the ro for the supervisors which meant that every week they got a rest day. one day in the week off. and every month, they got the friday, saturday, and sunday off you see. three days off every month. and this was great. they adopted it right away, the management thought it was too m too long away from their work you see. but the supervisors was fair away with this. so that was adopted. see? now that roster stayed from about nineteen when was it? er i don't know, nineteen fifty, right until the day i left in nineteen seventy six. that roster was still in operation, the supervisor's one. er that was one of the duties. then of course, suggestions was another thing for the improvement in working practices and working conditions. there was always there were always adverse against the management. the management were always against carriage cleaners getting a rest day, they didn't think they needed one. imagine, because they were a lower grade they'd meant nothing you see. so i made out a roster, and there were over a hundred carriage cleaners at and i made out a roster for them. rest day rosters. and i put it to the some of the women and men cleaners you see, how would like a rest day roster? oh that would be wonderful, that'd be great. you see. oh that'd be great. see and they got a monday this week, a tuesday next week, wednesday, thursday, friday, that's how i made it you see. and then saturday, it meant they got off on the sunday and the monday, they got their long weekend you see, when they reached the saturday. oh this'd be wonderful. oh but we'll not get it, we'll not get it jimmy, no. won't get it. i said, well we'll have a go anyway. well it took about six month with me arguing and arguing and arguing. oh it would take too many spare people rest day . so, oh aye, they take about twelve rest day staff, extra staff to allow it. well i got it whittled down to six extra. and i settled for that. you see, and it was a just a bit of a trick, i was putting in the rosters you see. now duty rosters, trains, all the different trains that have got to be clean you see, and i was putting in ten minutes less than really would be required you see, and that saved er hours you see, saved hours. and i brought it down to half a dozen staff. it was a bit of a twist but the management didn't notice it. or they didn't care. and it was conceded. that er the railway wasn't satisfying my my my needs. you see, when i became an inspector on the railway eventually,it was like a fire being damped down. you see? and that's when i felt that i wished i had of went for a career in the trade union or i felt that had i done that, i would have been satisfying something that was there. that's always been there. however it was too late then. i had made my decision and i'd taken the first step. now the first step was from as i said earlier, i had stayed too long at i thought. with my family growing up i was needing more money and er that's when i decided i would apply for a foreman's job at . well to cut a long story short, and bear in mind the fact that seniority and everything took precedence over e everything else, all things being equal. er i got the job at . i was quite interested in that actually because you you did imply at an earlier stage that er although seniority was the the important principle in ge in gaining promotion, er there was no harm done if in your favour you know. aye. er . well what with my at , for years at , i had made my mark, not only at but throughout the east of scotland with trade union activities and various other things. and i'm not sure whether i was the senior man or not. i assumed i was the senior man but one of my mates, a very good pal of mine to me, a senior shunter, he says, oh you'll get the job, they'll be wanting to get rid of you jimmy. you see. well anyway, i don't know what was true or not or what what was right, but i thought i'd got it through seniority and we'll leave it at that. i got the job at and i'd had e i'd had experience, i knew that going to was no problem. cos was a small small . compared to . was about ten times the size of it. and only catered for street station, which was a small station, it was being run down at that time, street station. see this was after the nationalization and the policy of the railway executive at that time was to instead of two stations in one town, they were all they were reducing it to one station you see. and was the most modern station so it was obvious street was on the way out. however, that would be a few years, take a few years before that happened. so anyway i got to and i was amazed at the opposition i got from the two or three staff shunters at . you see, to let you understand, this was maybe about four or five years after nationalization and prior to nationalization of course, was under the l m s, street station and were under the l m s and was under the l n e r. but when i arrived at , i heard them talking about the callie see, the callie railway. that was pre-l m s, see, caledonian railway. now that shows you how far back they were and how how their thoughts ran. and they called me an n b man, a north british railway man. where i was a l n e r you see. so the the their thoughts were away in the past and they hadn't moved i thought and i learned later that my thoughts were correct. they hadn't moved with the times. they were still doing jobs at that were long since dispensed with at you know, marshalling and that and methods that adopted and the shunting techniques. but what amazed me as i said before was their antagonism to strangers. it's laughable but at the time it wasn't laughable but when you think back, this man that i was put on with, he was acting guard foreman. he come from he was . and er he thought he was the bee's knees you see, he thought he knew everything about railways. because he knew the job at . and er he wouldn't tell me which you see there's there's things in the railway in every place in every job there's er dodges you know. and techniques that are peculiar to that job. but he didn't tell me that and i knew there would be you see, but he didn't tell me these things. however, it took me two or three weeks to learn them, to pick them up. for he wasn't clever enough to hide them, exactly, he stumbled through you see and and er of course they they were exposed you see, for all to see. and i was there with my ready eyes to pick them up. er for instance, he would get a message the phone would ring and he would answer it. he always rushed to the phone, he wouldn't let me answer the phone you see. always rushed to the phone. and he would get a message from er street station from the station inspector. er he wants two two or three coaches for this and that and for a special to liverpool you see, he'd need it later that afternoon. and er he wouldn't tell me what the message was you see, he would just say, well go across to the other yard and shunt out a couple of coaches you see. wouldn't even tell me the coaches you know. and we'd go across and i would help him to couple up the various coaches and that. and we'd shut them out shunt them out and then we'd collect the two coaches and take them over to the main yard, and put them under a cleaning platform you see for the cleaners. and he would go away, he wouldn't say, come on we'll go down to the cleaners and tell them , he would go away himself you see. and i wasn't a sheeplike person you see, i didn't follow him i just let him go. and er then i would see the two two or three cleaners coming out and going on to the coach and cleaning them, and i would say to them, what are they for? oh er they're for some job at street, they're wanting it for some job or other. didn't even tell me it was for a special train for er liverpool you know. to go to carstairs and connect with the glasgow portion to liverpool. and that went on for two or three weeks you know, and i said to the the station master at when he came across on his once a week visits he would come across. how are you getting on jimmy? he would ask. i says, och, this is a a toy place it is. this is not a railway. i says. they're a way back about a hundred years here. what do you mean? what do you mean? he says. i says, well er we're going about here, the two shunters are going about here and they're vying with each other to see how much they can ignore me. i says, why let me go on see i was getting about a month learning you see. i says, i'll go next week this was after three weeks, i says, i'll go on next week and i'll take over the job of yard foreman, and i'll do it the way i want it done, not the way that . do you think you'll be ready for that? i says, i have been ready for the last week. i says, a fortnight at this place is long enough to pick it up. i says, so i want to cut the ordeal short, i says, and i'll go on next week. that were three weeks you see. oh well, i'll tell er street then. well i got word from street that er i was to take my full month you see. that was er this chap who answered the phone, aye that's er street saying you can take the full month for learning. and i says, give me the phone then. what are you doing? what are you i says, i'm ringing. was that the station master aye. so i got onto the sta i says, hello is that the station mr ? yes. yes. i says, this is j at er . i says er, i want to go on as yard foreman next week. oh you're supposed to . i says, aye, but i'm fed up with this i says, i'm learning nothing. i says er, i want to take charge, and i'll do it the way that i think it should be done. so after a few words, he says, oh well, right i'll put you through as yard foreman from next week. so i took on as yard took on as yard foreman on the following monday. much to the resentment of the other you see. and i didn't go about it in a bombastic way or anything like that, i just gave them their orders you see, the two shunters. i says, what we'll do, first of all you know, we'll go across to the other yard and shunt out so and so and so and so. you see you used to get a a sheet from street for the week's work. and then any extra specials that come up in the meantime, they would send out send out a wee typewritten sheet you see. so that's where i got my instructions, very simple no bother at all. so i took over from then and er i just ignored what they was you know. we usually this way and that way. i said, ah well we've got to be different. i says, we're doing it the right way, the proper way now you see. and er well things got on and er gradually i had . and they were had no alternative but to accept it. well i was there about eighteen months and i was still active as a branch secretary for the n u r, the portobello branch. and er there was two or three or the carriage cleaners, men and women at , who er were in edinburgh number one branch of course. and er they used to come to me and ask things about what they should do and did i think they had a claim for this and that you know, and i used to tell them you see. but i forget the exact date it was fifty o two or fifty one or fifty two but the n u r were threatening a strike to strike over a wage claim. they'd been offered something, two or three percent and they's rejected it and they were threatening strike action. and er their members were agreed to strike action. they'd taken a ballot and the members had agreed. and er i wrote to the no we'd taken the decision at the portobello branch th that sunday that we support when we supported the executive decision, the strike for our just demand you see. and this got out, seemingly to the news. the edinburgh evening news. and i was working at this day and being a monday or a tuesday after the mo sunday meeting. and one of the reporters came out and er he asked me he's heard that our decision was to go out for a strike you see. well edinburgh number one were noncommittal. they just said they would support any action the executive took you see. but portobello branch went further they were urging you see, the national executive committee, to take industrial action immediately you see. this is what they believed the news were out for you see, a statement. and i says, you come into the foreman's hut, to the reporter i says, and i'll give you a statement. see i says, i'll give you the the resolution that was adopted at portobello. i says, and i'll add something else, the secretary's view. and again i wrote it out for him you know, wrote it all out. now, i says, er i'll read it out to you. he says, that's what i want. so you know, and there was quite a big column, there were one column in the edinburgh evening news, and it's in my my wee red book there. at portobello branch you see, urging the national executive to take immediate action in support of their claim for so and so . so this er oh was great news for the carriage cleaners and . and they were wanting to some of them anyway wanted to join the portobello branch. i said, no no. i says, we're all one union, i says, it doesn't matter what branch you're in, i says, this is your area you see. however, things went on very well at after that. i was accepted after about three month or four month you know, i was accepted as one of the it's interesting though that that you talked about that sort of identifying with the old companies, even in the nationalization days. aye. was that a common thing was that something that i presume i unders it wasn't unique to . i understand that this was pretty common, quite common throughout british railways, it took a few years to to knit together you know, the nationalization and the fact that we were just the same railway after that. you see. the l m s used to be the biggest of the railways you see. and er they thought they were the big cheese you see,th th th those who worked there . but er they were no better than and no worse than the the others either. . however, after about eighteen month at , as a yard foreman, as i say i was still branch secretary of portobello branch, and carrying on as usual, er i put in for there were this yard inspectors job wanted at street station. and i applied for that job, and i got it. now yard inspector at er street station, seemed a there were there were va there were only f half a dozen sidings, outside the station at street, see. outside the platform and er as i said before, it was like , they only had small trains you know, five coaches was the biggest train they had you know. and that was the liverpool. the rest were maybe three or four coaches. because they went from s from street station. to the edinburgh, at least the scotland passengers, to carstairs to connect up to the main glasgow central to liverpool, birmingham and there were all these places. and london. so it was quite a simple job and of course, as yard inspector at street, my job was to see that the s platforms were always when one train left you had to put the other train in to get the shunters to shunt another train into the empty platform you see, for the next the next shunt and that and if a train came in from carstairs you see, you seen that the pilot and phoned the signalman, let the pilot into number five dock. but er it was quite a simple job and er i liked it, then now and again i used to walk down to the station master's or the station inspector's office you know, have a chat with him and and get the gen on what was for the weekend working you see. and er they had a quaint a queer way of working. which the head station inspector was an old chap douglas was his name. dougie we called him. and what dougie said, that went for the rest of them. they all kowtowed after dougie you see. because he was the you know,anyway,this day i was just standing blathering away to dougie and one of the inspectors says, er the monday holiday, this would be the friday the previous to the monday. er on monday the edinburgh holiday, now er i'll need for the birmingham, will we need an extra coach for that? and dougie would say, just a minute. and he'd look up a book. and it was with writing in it his dougie's writing in it. er oh aye. aye we better have two coaches extra like. instead of three there'd be five you see. and i wondered how he deduced you know, how he got this. and i learned after a few weeks that how he got this was there was no weather forecast as we know them now you know on the television. but it'd been a good day last year, on the monday holiday, and they had needed two coaches you see. so he was taking it for granted or or chancing his hand that this monday for this year was going to be another good day. you see. so he'd put two on. if it was only one for the liverpool ex you know, one extra for the liverpool, you see, it'd be the same this year. what an qu antiquated way of working. you know. but anyway it seemed to work all right so. and that's how they they got their were there a lot of these er particularly amongst the older men and the and the inspectors and that that kind of thing, were there a and you've talked about , a lot of the old ideas were still aye. persistent. did you find that so many it took a long time for change to take place oh aye. aye. you see th at every station, every depot, on british rail, there were always one man thrown up as being the one who knew everything. you see. the leader. everybody looked to this person for guidance see. and that in itself was a form of antiquity you know, it it it is it went back to the old days you see. and it it was laughable you know, at times. when you asked phoned up say from from the yard at street, and asked an inspector, the shift er the man on the shift, er what about er tomorrow? saturday. do you not think we'll need another extra coach on the the manchester? or something like that. oh er aye jimmy, well, i'll tell you, i'll see dougie when he comes out. you see, and i'll let you know. that was the style of it, they couldn't see, couldn't make up their own mind. they were afraid to ta but if they'd had that if they'd told me to provide an extra coach for the manchester as i was suggesting, dougie would have come out and taken strips off them for you see. i i it was a queer queer thing but that's what happened. that's what happened, not only at street but other places . but more so at the ex-callie. with the ex-callie, they took longer to adapt to nationalization i think, than the rest of the railway. however er i got quite friendly with a signalman at er street. the signal box was just up er where i was stationed you see. and er there were some great characters among the signalmen. but they too were er old fashioned in their way. they were old men of course, getting old men you know, at the sixty mark. and er oh no, this is how we do it here, no. no. but er if i would suggest but if you're er letting that train out first you see and . ah no no no. we don't want to upset the working and . they wouldn't if you suggest anything you suggested anything to expedite the working,you're wasting your time, wasting your breath. they would go on their own merry way you see. because that's how they'd done it twenty years ago, and that's how they're going to do it till they retire. so it were no good fighting against them i mean they i used to let them please theirself you know, and er just because they were quite happy to go along that way. i was gonna ask you that, you you moved into er more a a more supervisory capacity when you aye. moved into the foreman and inspector jobs. er what sort of relationship did you have with with the men, did you er particularly thinking that you you were still for a long time after that, the the branch secretary of the union as well you know . aye. how did that square up? aye well,there was i wasn't aware of any what you'd call transition. you know, from the wages grade to the supervisory grade you see. i wasn't aware of that. that said, i got to know my men my staff and everybody of course has their peculiarities you know, the different thingummies. and i put myself out to find out what they liked best. and what they liked their job how how they liked their job. and what part of their jobs they liked best you see. and it was surprising how they responded, and i used to cater for their their whims and wishes you know. as long as they were doing what they were expected to do you see. but for instance,say we had two shunters, i had two shunters. one liked coupling up coaches you see, and then the vestibules, the canvas vestibules joining the coaches together for passengers to walk through. see. if one of them i found, loved he was an expert as he said at coupling vestibules. see. and the other one thought he was good at the buckeye coupling. you see. he knew all about it. because i had taught him about it you know, from coming from . and i would say to him, look joe, you know what to do with the buckeyes, i say, you go across to the yard and get them ready, set them you see. and you,, you're good at the vestibules, the canvas vestibules you know, concertinas like. i says, you get them coupled up and i can rely on you to get them right you see. well that's how i i played my shunters. now i found that i got results that way. and i could rely on them because they were good at that job you see, particular job. and i used to tell them they were good at it. and that satisfied them and it satisfied me. and i got on swimmingly with them. the same with the signalmen, i would go up to the signalman and tell him, well on the other shift you know, they would have left that train away first, before they left that other one in you see. ah but no not on my shift. my shift we do it this way. you see. and you got to know all these things, you got to know the peculiarities of what they liked best doing you see, and everything like that. so that was my way of of working with the staff. i didn't oppose them in any way you see. i was getting the best out of them. because, what they were doing was their best. you see. and that satisfied me. they were never never any hassle. on my shift you know. and i just don't know . do you think it was important that er or do you think your experience coming though the was important? oh invaluable. that was aye. you see, coming right up from coal boy and lamp-man you know, porter, signalman and parcel porter, leaving parcel porter, yard foreman and then shunter, guard foreman. i mean it was invaluable, you were learning everything there was to to know, you know. it was a i was gonna ask you you know,wh when you moved from shunter to foreman, you had responsibilities for a lot a lot besides the shunting. mm. but as you as you're describing there, coming through the grades, yeah. you'd already had some at least some former knowledge of all the other aspects of the railway in any case. aye. you see, when i became yard inspector, the staff soon got to know that they couldn't kid me, they couldn't kid me you see. because i knew their job, i'd done their job you see. each one of their jobs i'd done except the carriage cleaning of course, but of course that was a straightforward job, cleaning carriages. but shunters and all the rest i'd done their job. i'd come up the hard way you see. and i knew the tricks of the trade. so there were no good in the fighting against me. you see. i could tell at a glance whether the job was done or not. in fact i could hear the click of the b buckeye coupling. and the ring the bell you see. and i would say, i'd maybe be about twenty or thirty yards away from the coach, and i'd say to the shunter when he come out, that buckeye's not caught. you'd better go back and uncouple the and split it again and set the buckeye. the jaw's open . i could even tell thirty thirty or forty yards away just by the ring see. if it was caught. if if it hadn't caught, it was a dull sound you see, a thud. whereas if it caught, there were a cling a ring you see. so these wee things i i knew and er my staff soon found you see that well they just had to go along and do the job as it should be done, you see, and they were no good at kidding me that it had been done, for i used to examine everything that was done you see. if i gave them an order to couple up a full line of maybe ten coaches, i wouldn't take it for granted that they'd done it, i'd walk up the coach, one walk up one side, down the other side and i wouldn't if there were a heating valve not open, if they forgot that you see, i wouldn't do it for them, i would go back and i'd say, that s k third from the back end, the heating valve is not pulled down, you've missed it, you'd better when you're up that way, just pull it down you see. so that was if i'd done it you see, that was spoiling them. so it was the likes of that and these things that got me to know my staff and got my staff to know me. and there were no hass building a relationship with your building a relationship, that's right. and there were never any cause for arguments or never any rows or arguments and that, and no shouting and bullying and er no that started at er at er street as a yard inspector. and er well i was there for eighteen month as a yard inspector. and i enjoyed it, it was quite good, i got on well with the staff. and er then there was a vacancy that was a class three inspector's job at yard inspector's job at street. so the the inspectors were actually graded as well. graded. they were er a grade five, that was the lowest inspector, grade four but eventually the grade er five and four were done away with. but anyway, that was a grade three i was in. and there was a grade three carriage cleaning inspector advertised for . so i thought i'd put in for that, it was a lateral move you know, but still it was getting back to my depot and nearer my home. so i put in for that and i got that. and er well the carriage cleaning well a carriage cleaning inspector you just, looked after the carriage cleaners and seen that the coaches were right you know and walk along the and examine the coaches after they'd been cleaned you see. and if they weren't properly done, you'd tell the forewoman that that wasn't in such and such a coach in compartment was needing under the seats were needing cleaning . she would tear into her staff you see and get it and then er an along the corridors you know, there's ledges up above the doors as they slide into each compartment. and i used to go along with a well a finger you see and, that's not been dusted you see. and er just tell the forewoman . that was it. but you were responsible. you see, when the trains arrive from at waverley, and heard that er one superintendent and gerald was his name, he was a great boy for going down to waverley to meet trains coming from . maybe once a month at that you know, and occasionally just to catch, to see if the trains were properly cleaned you see. and he used to take his white handkerchief out, and go along the corridors and above these, up on these ledges, with his white hanky. imagine imagine a white hanky. and go along with it. and if it was dirty, he would go back to his office and phone and phone the yard master and say, so and so coach dirty. i've been i've been intending to ask you actually about the about the women workers. er you you've mentioned them off and on quite a few times er that there mm. that it was predominantly women that were in the carriage cleaners. yes. er how did you find them as workers e in given that there weren't many women at that time er in well a a manual working environment if you like. at aye and even at , there was one woman in charge of them. there was a woman in charge of the women workers. they called her a forewoman you see. and most of the forewomen see there were one on each shift, three shifts and then there were f a middle shift, a nine to five shift that was four forewomen. now the carriage cleaning inspector had a good job if he went about it the proper way. now i never if i was going through a train or going down a platform, and there were two or three carriage women carriage cleaners you know,i wouldn't speak to them about their work. i'd maybe have a chat chat with them you know, personal like. but i wouldn't talk to them about their work. i went to the forewoman you see. and i told her what was wrong or what wasn't right you see, and what w what was wanted what i wanted done you see. and that put her in her place you see, and it gave her a position. and she in of course in turn, she could get tore into the women if they missed anything, see. not me, that wasn't my job i thought. my job, my contact was the forewoman, you see. so therefore there were never any hassle or or arguments and the forewoman got her place, i gave her a place you see. and she in turn supervised her her own women staff you see. so it was as simple as that. is er the fact that carriage cleaning was probably considered a low grade i think you'd have felt it was aye aye. was there any feeling amongst the men that er it was not only a low grade, but it was done by women if you if you like? no you see, the women cleaners done the interior of the coaches, and the male carriage cleaners did the exterior, the brushed you see. with the x mover that's what they called the solution. they just put it on you see with a brush and it was a paste you see, all over the coach,and then they had a hose and they washed all that x mover off you see, the x mover was an acid and it ate into the you see, bodywork. and they so that was the men's job, was the exterior of the coaches. and the woman done the interior. so there were all there were a distinction you see, between men and that. that's what i'm getting at you know, what aye. was the relationship like between the men and women, er the men and women cleaners even? ah there were no no bother with them. there were no bother, they just they were a men er a a male carriage cleaner and the women were women. that's not my job as it were. they knew their jobs you see. that's a man's job, the woman would say. and the men would say, oh that's not my job, that's your job. so there were a distinction in that respect and there were never any trouble. and there were never any fights that i had that i can remember between men and women or anything like that. there were squabbles and shouts and screams with women tearing each other you know. tearing each other 's hair but of course the forewoman would come on the scene and she would settle it. we need you in a semicircle and the best way to do that is to push your chairs roughly around that grey line there's a nice swivelly one erm you pass those round in either direction, from now on it's, it's bandage time. denise is going to do bandaging and i'm going to do bandaging and so are you, so you have these packs and these packs, if you'd like to take one pack each, i don't know if there's a pin in them, you might find a pin in there please look after them and bring them back each day, you'll find a bandage and a roll of bandage in there and so their your own properties in your text book you've got quite a lot of information in there about reinforcing, what we're going to do in the practical session and it's always a help i think when you have a lot of the, thrown at you to know that you can just put it up and there it is if you get a bit confusing or can't remember what's what, so on page one six nine it starts telling you all about nursing and bandages and general hygiene which we've already talked quite a lot about but it's very useful for you to know, you can go there and look, and if you just go through the pages from there on one seventy, one seven one, one seven two, one seven three and then on one seven four it's got the general rules for applying bandages apply bandages when the casualty is sitting or lying down, you always sit your casualty down and you work from the front of, i say why do you work from the front of the thing? so you can keep so you can see how they're looking, see if they're going pale a bit or if they're going to fall off their chair and talk and reassure them. that's right, erm always make sure that the injured parts are well supported bandages should be firm enough to do the job and large enough to cover the wound all of this is the sort of thing which you need to be referring back to if you're in any doubt. on page one seven five you've got how to check the circulation, after you've put the bandage on to make sure it's not too tight, it's not stopping all the blood supply, press a fingernail if there's only a finger nail and the, it should go white of course if you press it, then the blood should go back and it goes back pink again or an area of er skin, always check your circulation after you've put your bandage on. now when you've actually opened your pack you'll find, what you got your triangular bandage here. now i'm going to show you now how you going to put it away again, fold it, afterwards, opening it up alright, everyone open their bandage up? now when it's opened it's useful as a sling, two sorts of slings we're going to do, high sling and the low sling but also if you fold it, it's very useful as a bandage too, if you put it across your knee, then you bring the point up towards you like that and then again, fold it the base up to the top again . and again face up to the top and there you've got a bandage, okay? one stage before that you've got a very broad bandage which is helpful for supporting things, we'll learn about how to use that later. when you've got it to the final fold there you've got your ordinary fold bandage and if you want, pack it away like that, you bring the end in the centre, there, so and again the ends in to the centre, just so that they meet like this, like this the centre, just so that they meet there, again, start like this, ends just to meet in the centre don't overlap them too much and again bend into the centre and you've got a nice little pad, if you ever need a pad for plonking on a wound quickly, there you've got a pad, or putting against an ear or anything you want it for and you open it up quickly and you've got a bandage, two of those and you've got a but it's a very handy way to keep. when you've got your bandage in your pack, i've explained to you before, you open it up in the first aid kit it's sterile, yeah, you open it up by the one hand goes one way, one hand goes the other, break it open, put the cardboard away and you need to be ready to try before you pull the next bit off don't you because as soon as you've opened that it's not sterilized any more, so you open that up and you find, unwrap it unwrap it as i showed you before with the first aid kit, comes out first and then you see how the padding because this wadding is stitched onto the back, and the front is the bit you put against the wound and you put it straight against the would without or touching it and that pad should be big enough to cover the wound, so you should something, overlaps, alright, and then if you find, if you unwrap the roll a little bit further, you don't want to unroll it completely, your see that if while you're using it in practice you need to roll it up again backwards towards the back of the bandage like so, we'll roll it up again, backwards and when you get to the bandage you just fold the bandage up around the long end and wind the short end round it firmly and there it's ready for use again in practice, you wouldn't of course do that for real would you? put away, use another one. so that's how you look after your bandages and all these things that we're going to show you you'll find in those little sections in your first aid book so if you get confused or why you've only got to look up in the book. let's do the sling first. i thought we'd do the sling first, high sling because it's very important to get it high and not pull it, everyone, anyone gets asked to do the high sling in their exam and if you can put a good high sling on you're halfway to passing mm and from that it can't be bad can it? so i'll be the casualty and at the moment we won't worry about all the various things you use a high sling for, we just want to make sure that you can actually do it, okay? can you just come back a little further and then they'll be able to see, better if all round the side okay? right, now then, be like this i'll pretend that i've done something that needs to be, a high sling to support me in this fashion. and i, i'm going to be working from behind denise because you all need to see, but you would be working from the front as i've already talked about, so you need your triangular bandage, alright, and there's your long edge, and there's your point as we call it, a sort of elbow shaped, think of that as elbow shaped because it always goes towards the injured elbow. now, that when you arrange your sling in the first place, it's crucial to the success and ease of which you finalize the bit round the elbow. you arrange it so that this long side is vertically up and down the body, right, in that direction. don't let it come across like that, the temptation is to think that you've got to have all this bit up here, now you don't want this up here because it's very difficult to cope with once you've tied it round to get it round the elbow, you want the least amount that you can get, just cover the arm and then it makes it much easier to deal with at the end. the amount at the top that you need is just enough to tie a reef knot oh i've forgot to show you a reef knot didn't i? tie a reef knot. we all use a reef knot in erm first aid and again it is in the book a very good illustration in the book reef knot and then nobody knows how to do it, i will show you in a bit, but that's enough to do a knot, the knot comes on just above the fingers, in the hollow of the neck, okay? so that's how you arrange it like that, the first thing you then do is to tuck the spare bit under the hand, cos the hand then there anchors it for you okay? and the hand doesn't sneak out afterwards and starts popping out and then it's useless, then the rest of all this stuff you just get it out of the way under the arm, it's all gone, right, this bit comes up between the two shoulder blades, don't make the mistake of bringing it across there, a lot of people do that, that won't do, you have to come round the back and between these two shoulder blades to get maximum support, you've got to hold this elbow up and then you tie it near the hand, now i recommend that you tie it and talk to your casualty, half tie it and say is that supporting you enough? it feels okay thanks, yeah cos then you can draw it up a little tighter if it's too loose, if it's like that and, most people do it too loose, is that tight enough? no it isn't. right i'll just draw it up a little bit tighter, is that tighter for you? better, better and now i'll do the other half of my reef knot, right, and tuck the ends in immediately, they don't like seeing ends because they're considered dangerous in first aid so don't forget to do it, do the knot, tuck it in all in one movement and then it's done, okay, how does that feel? that's fine of course you're reassuring all the time as you do this mm, mm got a bit that's fall down hello we haven't finished yet, haven't finished. now you're gonna want a pin, these are rather small pins, i recommend that peop people who have got large hands try and fit their first aid kit out with large pins, they're much easier to handle, but firstly they do not put pins in their mouths for obvious reasons, either, either have it on the table open ready or just pop it in the front of shirt while you do this bit, okay? so you're going to fold this around the elbow to give support to the arm and in this one you're gonna fold first of all forward and then back, can you see that little neat envelope? a neat little envelope that's supporting quite firm, that's supporting the elbow, now pin it, again, now you can see how important it is not to have lots and lots of bandage up here, cos what will you do with it then? it's too much, if you ever have too much you can just fold a bit down, if you have a big bandage you can fold either of those edges down first if you've got too much and then you fold it forward and back, now your pin sticks in, but all the material and out of all the material and it goes in a straight upward direction, again it must go in that direction so that if per chance it comes undone it falls out and drops on the floor, whereas if it was sideways or downwards it would open and stick in your casualty, so that's why we have it done that way. would you like to see that again or do you think you could manage it now? see it again see it again, right, i'll just do it this time without talking it through, and you can just watch yeah and i tell you what we shall do we shall change arms we'll change arms as well you'll need to practise on both arms. and there's no use getting in the exam on thursday and say ah well i'm afraid i've not done it on that arm so erm lost okay, so there you are you see, you're, you're a first aider and you come up to the person and you hold it the way you did last time and you think ah, now that's the wrong way round of course, there's my elbow point, there's my injured elbow, so i have to be that way round, mm, so you turn it round the other way, right, your elbow shape goes to the injured elbow and your long line goes straight up and down the line of the body, you arrange it so that you only just covering the forearm there, with just enough above the hand to tie your reef knot that would be too little and that would be too much just enough above the hands to tie your reef knot, the first thing you do is to tuck nice, big bit of material right under the hand and anchor it into position, just keep that resting there and all the rest of this goes under the arm up between the shoulder blades there and you tie your first half of the reef knot just above the fingers in the hollow of the neck here, now that's important because round the back here if you press on that bit of muscle there, there's a big band of muscle, if you've got a knot on that it gives a great deal of discomfort very quickly so you want to get the knots round in the hollow here that doesn't hurt your casualty, there, draw it up half the knot, is that tight enough? it feels fine yeah that feels fine and then do your other half of knot, reef knot and tuck it in straight away, you get your pin ready, have it on, either on the table or ready like that, now if you've got too much material ever you just fold that down, there, if that's too much, which isn't too much with denise because it's the right size sling, sometimes you have to improvise and then you fold if forward and back, firmly, take the pin and put it, put your two fingers down between the casualty so that your fingers are apart and there's a space between your fingers so you can stick the pin in and out again without any danger, if you put the fingers apart like that, if you do stick the pin in yourself and draw blood would you please throw the pin away, as a matter of automatic hygiene, it mustn't be used again once it's been stuck into somebody or in your casualty or in your casualty, it must be thrown away do it up, discard it alright get another one from the box would you please make sure that all through these practices that you deal with different people all the time cos in the exam and for real afterwards you'll have to bandage all different shape people and if you just get, work in pairs you don't get that sort of practice, by all means start of with somebody next door to you but each time you do one go across the room and find somebody you haven't done before. and if the gentleman having to put bandages on a lady and you want to put your hand underneath there just excuse me a moment, alright, because in the exam one row of you will certainly going to have a lady bandage okay, put slings on and to bandage so it's just as well not to get to you know used to bandaging up great big chaps and then you'll find you've got some little tiny five foot two or five foot nothing lady bandaging in exam, alright, so swap around, so get yourselves so you've got a partner and use your bandages and let's just see you do the high sling to start. all got safety pins by the way? yeah they had them in the little packs, okay? right how many people know how to do a reef knot for sure? no right, so i'm not wasting my time a reef knot then? if, if you look in your books page one seven seven, you'll see a beautifully illustrated instruction on how to do it, which you can refer to yourself this evening or later on in the course if you forget but i'm now gonna show you how to do one as well, you, if you want to know it's there for you to look up you take the bandage and fold it into your narrow fold band and put it round your leg, you've got something to tie a reef knot round, okay?if you know how to do a reef knot already fine, just do it, if you don't, follow instructions. narrow fold bandage you've done it correctly then. the doing it the same way each time and a reef knot is the opposite way each time, alright, undo it, once again, just once again to make sure you know are you ready? once again, now it doesn't matter which way round you start, you can start left over right or right over left, but the second time you do it opposite to the first time, so the first time i put the left one over first and the right one over that and then tuck it through, just like tying a shoe lace really, okay? and the next, pick the ends up, i put the right one down first and the left one across it and then put that one through and then that's a reef knot no that's a granny over there anyone not sure? that, that's the one you have to remember which one you put on which, that was the left on top of the right, now the right on top of the left yes, come on which one did you do first? that's the right on top of the left okay, right on top of the left, now you've crossed over again left on top of the right, put that through there okay yeah all okay i think mm, yes all okay now, right. i bang my head, i cut my scalp, yeah, everybody, i bang my head, i cut my scalp, not massive bleeding none of the bandages we're doing this morning are to do with massive bleeding, they're all to do with what we call minor wounds, right so small cut, but it needs attention, okay, so i cut my scalp cor okay so i've got my pad it's a bit tender alright, so i'm going to ask my casualty to hold my nice clean sterile pad that i've got folded ready over the wound, there, gently, okay? yep then i'm going to take another triangular bandage and i'm going to open it up and make just a little fold, this is going to go on her forehead and that little fold just helps with keeping it firm and stopping the bandage slip, now, just put it around the forehead like that, okay? cross it over, round the back, and back up to the front again, do a reef knot here and tuck your ends in straight away of course like so and then this little bit can just be tucked up where you've crossed the two ends and make it look neater with no ends hanging out, no that, all that does is keep the dressing secure, keep infection out, okay? the difficult part about this one is that people all have odd shaped heads, now and you find that if you put them on too high they squidge off like that, and you've got to think of bandaging an egg basically, if you had an egg with a little hole in one end and you've got to put a bandage round you'd have to put it very carefully round the widest bit wouldn't you for it to stay firm and that's the secret, everyone's heads different and as you put it round you've got to see where you can get it, where, sometimes it's over the ears, sometimes it's above the ears according to the peoples' shaped, different shaped heads everyone's different, anything else? okay, have a go at it and we'll come round and correct what you're doing as you're doing it, alright, so you want to pad over the wound to keep infection out and then try to get your bandage on top of that to keep the dressing in place. right, well we want to make sure that you can get out to lunch sort of by, that's running a bit fast that clock, we'd like to get you out to lunch by about half past twelve otherwise you'll end up being late don't you with all the other people right right, okay, what now, erm roller bandages so you can put those triangular ones away for a minute can't you let's do the elbow and we'll do the elbow and knee okay elbow and knee then using the roller bandage and again here it is two pages further on in your book, if you forget how to do it, just look up, okay? roller bandages well i fell over, slipped over in the car park out there, all gravelly and gritty out there and i scraped my elbow and i've got a nasty graze all on the elbow and it's all full of grit and muck, help come and sit down here my dear help let's give us a little now if we've got a tap handy probably the best thing would be to run it under the cold tap and that hopefully would take away any dirt and extra bits and pieces that are stuck around it. if there's anything embedded in it like gravel or something and it doesn't come away easily you mustn't, it comes under the categories of what you call foreign bodies, which first aider is not at liberty to poke about, you must leave foreign bodies that don't come away easily where they are and bandage them round and send them off to hospital or a doctor, but assuming it's just a little clean graze, if i haven't got a tap to put it under, then i must use little bits of gauze to wash, put in a bowl of water and just wipe, yeah, and you always wipe obviously from the centre of a wound towards the outside, otherwise if you start to wipe across the whole thing you take dirt from one side of the wound across and drop it off in the middle somewhere, so you wipe from the centre out and throw that piece away and you take another piece and wipe from the centre out and so on until you feel happy, quite happy. i mean, well if you haven't got gauze in your first aid box, but you could have something like a mediwipe or you might be able to use, open up your bandage and you can use, you know, several pieces of this, just keep going down the bandage and then you know clean it and get rid of that bit, okay, another clean bit okay, so you can adapt with whatever you've got in your first aid box, yes, and you won't necessarily have scissors to hand so you'll have to do whatever you've got and the little mediwipes are very useful for that, but don't use one mediwipe for seventy five grazes, okay, one mediwipe for one wipe and then discard, okay? okay, so i'm going to open up my sterile dressing now so i actually put my arm out straight for you now? do you think it'd be better if you had it bent cos it'll be easier for you after i've bandaged it it's better bent is it? yes okay, alright it would be better if you can manage alright to bend if it's not too uncomfortable so i can bend it, i can bend it like that then? right, you can only bend, you can only put the arm in the position that your casualty will let you of course, but it is more comfortable to have it bandaged in that position, than having it like that. so you open it up and you find which is your sterile bit and you put that over the point of the elbow and you can bring that once around and you can ask her to hold it for you, if you like it goes in there right yes and then you take your long end and you wind above covering the edge and overlapping and then the low, then covering the edge and overlapping, there and again you keep working your way up and down, a figure of eight until you get to the end of your bandage then tie away from the body in your reef knot, either you tuck your ends in or if that's awkward you can just put a sticking plaster over the ends to get them out of the way like that, so just tuck the ends in and i don't think your casualty's going to need a sling for a little graze like that right, and so that she can still move and as the same thing applies to the knee exactly the same thing, wound there you keep the knee bent a little bit and you can do exactly the same bandage like a figure of eight, okay? so one person will do the bandage on the elbow and the other person with the good looking knees, you'll be the casualty for where you've got to put the knee bandage on, cos you won't, if you don't roll your trousers up a bit you're not going to have much bandage to do much bandaging with on the knee, okay, so decide amongst yourselves who's got the good looking knee everybody okay now? yeah yeah? excuse me i've got a circulation problem now all okay then? yeah? a couple more to show you then you can practise these when you have a bit more practice time so we can get you out to lunch on time. if you have to bandage a hand for example, okay? somebody's slipped over and they've got all the grit in their knuckles in the part of their knuckles and you want to bandage the hand or there's a cut on the hand, even on the palm, we can do that one later when it's really, when it's really a gash, gushing blood we can do this afternoon, i repeat again none of these which you've done this morning will control severe bleeding, get it into your heads this is just to cover to keep infection out, alright, these are not to control severe bleeding just covering a minor wound or a graze, right? so she's got her knuckles grazed, you've cleansed it, put it into a drop of water,ra or else we've used the mediwipes or the end of the bandage okay, now we just cover it, okay, so it goes over, can you just straighten out your hand for me, it goes over the wound, okay and you can take this one that she can hold it for you just up there, right, now the rest of this just winds round, the only thing you really need to do is to just make sure that you leave the thumb out, cover up the bottom right and then come up towards the wrist, cover up the top of the pad, come back down again, leave the thumb out all the time, got the idea? right, cover up again, come up towards the wrist, if you've got any more bandage, go round perhaps one more time okay and just make sure at the end of the day that you don't tie too tightly round the wrist, why not? stop circulation absolutely, so really we want to tie away from this pulse point here towards the back of the hand, good enough yeah right, tie it off in a reef knot, if you've got bits that are left dangling they're too long and you can't go round again because it's gonna make it too tight, you can either tuck them in or else you can fold them down, a nice clean plaster and put it right over the top, okay? now that would do, that would do whether the, whether the knuckles were hurt or it was just a minor cut in the palm of the hand there, that would do and you can use the same type of bandage on the foot alright, so that's if the hand was damaged, now supposing we didn't have the hand damaged, but we had instead a cut up here, okay, again clean it and if you clean it with lots of water always remember to dry off around the wound because bugs love a moist skin to grow in, dry the wound before you apply the dressing okay if you can, dry it off the best you can and then you're going to place that over the cut, remember you want the pad to be long enough, big enough, okay, now she can hold this for you again, she can hold it above where the wound is and now when you bandage this one you always bandage from the narrow part to the fat part of the limb, you always bandage from the narrow to the fat, so you take the bandage down why? because that way it stays on if you do it the other way it'll drop off it's as simple as that, okay, cover the pad and as you spiral up the arm all you need to do is to cover about two thirds of what you've just done before, just like a spiral, you find the bandages, the more you use those roller bandages of yours the worse they get to control because they lose their, you know, nice and stretchiness, so you just do, cover up the pad at the top, tie always on the top of the arm never underneath here. check with your casualty that it's comfortable, yes? and does it feel quite firm for you? not too tight though? no and those bits again, either tuck them in out of the way or better still fold them over and put a big plaster over the top to get them right out the way so no ends are left dangling, remember for most people you're doing this for they'll probably be returning to their place of work, okay, so they need to be safe to return to work, everybody okay on that lot? so let's just recap on the ones you've done this morning, you've done a high sling yes mm you've used a triangular bandage to cover a wound in the scalp, it's not a chopping block wound right, it's not the chopper in its wound right, it's just a minor wound in the scalp, yes, and that came round and tied at the front, tucked at the back, you used these roller bandages to cover a graze or a wound on the end of an elbow or a knee or the hand, foot and then a straight one up the arm okay, so a lot of your bandaging is using these little roller bandages with the lint pad and don't forget when you get into the exam do it, don't do it the wrong way round, remember that you look at your bandage and you put the lint onto the wound, not the other way round right, yeah, you put the lint face down onto the wound, okay? any questions of anything we've done? all alright on that, yes? we get time to practise these again before the exam? oh yes , now if by any chanc chance you do have a question in the exam where you're asked you know instead of the wound being on top of the scalp, some clever so and so decides that you're good at improvising and you've got a wound over the top of the eyebrow, the eyebrow's split, okay, so there wouldn't be much good of me going a minute, pull that there, trying like this round there right, okay, it's not really in the best interest of the casualty is it, right, now what dressing would you apply to that do you think? a plaster plaster an eye plaster, an eye pad a an eye pad won't really sop up blood will it? a roller plaster one of them, of course you will, you use a roller bandage won't you again? in this instance you can put it across the eyebrow, right, across the eyebrow, ask them to hold it and if you're doing a bandage like this the way to keep it on is to have one part of the bandage going above the ear and the next time you go round go below the ear right, go above the ear and the next time you go round go below the ear okay and then finally just tie it off, get the idea? okay, so they may ask you to use something which you haven't necessarily had to do before so that they're really all that the examiner's testing is that you've got a little bit of nous, a little bit of savvy and with what you've got available you can improvise a dressing or use the dressing in a sensible manner so that your casualty's comfortable and you're doing the best you can for them, okay? lovely. anything else to add audrey? no that's fine everyone alright then, okay, it's time for grub isn't it? yes it is, quarter past one please quarter past one back here, okay? anyone want coffee? anyone staying here and want a cup of coffee? yes please yeah we'll do one in a minute for you then so you have the heart of the centre of it, two pumps back to back yes, the major pump or the stronger pump on the left hand side, why? that's where the blood leads by, okay, on that side of the heart the left hand side of the heart it's being pumped and therefore the muscle is a bigger muscle, that's doing the contracting, the blood push out and it relaxes back again and that allows the blood to be sucked back down into the heart, okay, and the next time it's shh, that goes out and then it relaxes down again and the blood sucks back down into the heart, okay so that's what it does, all the muscle can do is that, muscle can only retract and then it relaxes, contract and then it relaxes, that's what the heart's doing all the time, how many beats a minute? sixty to eighty sixty to eighty you can feel it at pulse point, can't you, here, here, we'll show you so more in a minute, okay? so you know how to check whether the circulatory system is working because if it's working you'll be able to find a pulse pounding away, yes, that's how you check it, you know the respiratory system's working because if you want to check it what do you want to look for? rise and fall rise and fall of chest breath on your hand or your cheek, circulatory system working, pulse, okay? and that's what you're checking, the other side of the heart, the right hand side of the heart with a smaller pump, where's that pumping? blood out the lungs back up to the lungs, okay, now in that little system there, there's just one thing that's interesting to note, when you spoke about circulatory system this morning or yesterday rather with audrey, you spoke about the blood being always leaving the heart, yes, via the arteries, yes yes and always coming back to the heart by the veins by the veins , there's always an exception to every rule and the exception to that rule in the case of the heart and the lung connection is the pulmonary artery and the pulmonary vein, you may not get asked anything about this, but just in case you do it's as well to know, in that instance the flow is reversed, in other words the pulmonary vein takes blood away from the heart and up to the lungs, and the pulmonary artery brings the oxygenated blood back down to the heart from the lungs, if you want to have a look at the diagrams for that and look at it yourself later on, there's no need for you to get concerned or confused about this at all, there's no need. you'll find the little diagram showing you where the pulmonary vein and the pulmonary artery are on page eleven, page eleven if you want to refer to it right, if you want to look at it in a closer detail tonight that's fine and if you want to see what i'm saying now in a diagrammatic form look on page thirteen now if you look at that you'll see some, the blue vein blood vessels it's coming out of the right hand side of the heart and if you look at the direction of the arrows, okay, they're going away from the heart, do you agree with me? they come out of the heart and branch like a wishbone, one to each lung, do you see that, now the arrow direction is away from the heart and that's a vein and you'd expect that to be coming back to the heart wouldn't you? and that's the only time you're going to find it when you're linking the heart and the lungs, now look at those two areas where you've got blood coming back down into the heart, can you see those two wishbones there coming back down into the heart, do you see where i mean, yes? now those are arteries, that's the pulmonary artery but it's coming back to the heart okay, that's the only time you're going to find the rule reversed, arteries leave the heart, veins come back to the heart, and the only time that rule is reversed is when you're linking the heart and the lungs through the pulmonary vein and the pulmonary artery, however, they are still carrying, the arteries are still carrying oxygen charged blood, yes, because it's come fresh from the lungs so it's still carrying nice red lovely oxygenated blood, yes, even though it's coming back into the heart, that is because it's come fresh from the lungs and the vein although it's going in the opposite direction the way you normally expect it, is still carrying the old rotten, you know, used up blood, because it's going back to the lungs to be recharged, do you understand it alright? that's the only time it'll be reversed can you just say that bit about the pulmonary in the vein and the pulmonary in the wee artery again please the pulmonary artery comes back into the heart, the pulmonary vein goes away from the heart vein goes home back up to the lungs, they are linking the heart and the lungs yeah, i've written that down alright and if you look at the diagram on page thirteen and you look at the little arrow diagram you'll see that it gives it quite nice and clearly there is that alright? just wanted to clarify that little point, so you know the organs that make up the circulatory system, you know how to check it, you know the one slight difference than what you normally expect veins and arteries to be doing okay? now we need to talk a little bit about what happens when the veins or the arteries or the capillaries for that matter, the veins, the arteries or the capillaries have a leak in them, they become broken, now you already know that the circulatory system is a closed system and that the blood can only do its job if it's being transported within that system, once the blood comes outside of that system then it's lost the circulation and it cannot perform its proper function any more, in other words the body's losing its blood, okay, what condition do we call it when the circulatory system stops working properly? shock shock, do you understand the difference between the loss of pressure and loss of volume, volume would be when liquid was leaking out, coming out of the blood vessels, okay, pressure would be when the heart itself, the pump itself had failed or was not working properly, failed completely or was not working properly, do you understand the difference? obviously eventually if people keep on leaking blood their pressure will fall but you could have a situation where there's not a single drop of blood yet lost to the system and yet the person's in shock because the blood's not being circulated properly off the heart, not a drop of blood lost to the system, but insufficient pressure, so shock can be caused by either of those two things, failure of the circulatory system because the pressure of the volume drops dangerously low, okay, you did a lot of work on what the person looks like, yes you as the casu you as the first aider will see this person in front of you, what will they be like? what will their face look like? let's start there pale very pale, very cold and clammy cold and clammy okay, don't say blue, because otherwise you'll get it mixed up with asphyxia put very pale, if you saw somebody in a hospital bed who'd just suffered shock, they'd be the same colour as the sheet they're lying on their face is absolutely white, okay, very, very pale, very cold and very clammy, now supposing the doctor asks you why are they cold and clammy? why are they cold? because they've lost blood no blood near the skin, no blood near the skin, okay, why no blood near the skin? mm? guarding er the vital organs right, because the body is acting in order to protect its vital organs and it's drawing the blood vessels near the skin, shut down, you're not needed there, you're needed here, in the core of the body, because your blood is what warms your skin up, it's taken away from the skin, then the skin feels cold and clammy, yeah, clammy because of course if there's no heat, we sweat all the time and especially if somebody's had an accident or is seriously ill they will be sweating, yes, then there's nothing to dry the sweat off okay, what happens when we sweat excessively in the summer time? dehydrate you get wet, sweaty, but there's nothing to dry the sweat off, not sweating and drying off, so they feel clammy, okay, so we've looked at their colour and we've felt their skin and we've felt that it's horrible and clammy and cold, what about their pulse, we've gone down to the pulse now it becomes rapid fast faster fast, anything else about it? weak weak, so why is it fast? the arteries are pumping harder the heart is having to pump harder, why? try to get more air into the arteries is trying to get more blood round the system it's trying to do the same work with the smaller amount of blood as it did with the full amount, ten pints perhaps reduced down to seven, got to keep pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, because that little bit of blood has got to get round and do a lot more work now, okay, so the blood's rushing round and the heart is pushing faster because it's having to, because it's not enough of the, not so much pressure there, that's why it feels weak, weak and fast, okay? we haven't got much blood now, it's working away like mad, so now what are you lacking? oxygen so when you hear people who are in shock, they'll be okay and that's how they are, they're panting, breath, right, very fast and very shallow, they're not calm, they're panting for breath all the time, okay, so that's how you see them. what are they going to tell you? how will they feel? want a drink bloody awful, in an awful, in a word, now qualified, how they bloody awful tell me? sick sick, could feel sick could have a headache stress cold light headed faint cold faint restless to talk to restless, disorientated mm okay, all of those things, what are you going to do for them? lay them down you've stood and looked at them you've listened to what they've told you, now what can you do? lay them down and raise their legs if it's humanly possible, lay them down, raise the legs, how about if they're shivering? maintain their body heat supposing they start sweating? remove take some off okay, you want the body temperature kept at an even level, don't have it too high, don't have it too low, cos if you shiver you make use of muscles and then the muscles will call on oxygen and then you'll shiver, you don't want them there you want the blood in here, if you make them sweat you'll bring the blood to the surface of the skin again to lose heat, and that's again precisely where you don't need, you want it in the core of the body so you maintain an even body temperature. shall we give them a nice sweet, hot cup of coffee? no nothing by mouth at all, no brandy? no nothing by mouth what else can you do for them? reassure them reassure them, time's going by check get help ambulance ambulance, thank goodness someone's remembered, patting this person's hand, and putting blankets on and reassuring them, telling them everything's alright, and blood all over the floor, thank god someone's gone to get the ambulance stem the bleeding right, and stem the bleeding if you can see where it's coming from attempt to stem the bleeding, bung the hole up, okay? right, so now we've got round to what we can do for the casualty, let's have a look and see what the body's trying to do here and then we'll say how you'll help them a bit more. if the person's bleeding, not just a little tiny cut now, not like the graze this morning, this is real, this is serious bleeding okay? first of all you've got the blood pressure falls, the body does that automatically for itself mm, mm, the body does that for itself how can we help it? falls partly because it's shutting down the ends of the arteries, the arteries themselves can actually contract because they're muscular walled, yes, the arteries can contract and that tends to shut down and reduce the pressure slightly in that area, right and also the body itself is gonna divert that blood isn't it to the core of the body taking it away from other areas, damaged areas, so how can we help to reduce the pressure any more? supposing i've got a cut right across my wrist here, or someone has direct pressure elevate it hold it up, now you're reducing the pressure to the area because the heart's got to pump harder to get it up there okay, so we hold the hand or the limb higher than the heart and that will reduce the pressure still further, the ends of the blood vessels contract so how can we help them to contract even more? direct pressure direct pressure over the wound, not your hand but the casualty's if they're still conscious blood clots yes, what's helping it to clot is a special process in the blood plasma not plasma platelet platelet, right, it's the platelet that help clot okay, so how can we help it to clot even more? fibrous a better, put a fibrous pad over it, so a pad, pressure directly over the wound initially, that's the first treatment done, see to casualty put pressure immediately over the wound and raise the limb higher than the heart, then the first aid equipment that you'll need is a fibrous pad to bind over it, to keep the pressure on. pad, pressure and elevation in most instances will stem severe external bleeding, pad, pressure and elevate, okay, let's just reinforce that for you pad, pressure and elevate, right and that should control a severe external bleeding. how will you know if the blood is coming from er an artery that's cut? pumping, yes, if i, somebody had slit me here okay, blood from my artery, it's probably quite easy, the television set, then after that it'll drop off obviously because the body is pulling the pressure down all the time, it does, okay, but if it was a vein? blue, blueish and it'll flow out, okay, now we know that's the difference in colour and i've already told you that the arteries have got muscles in their walls, what's the difference in between the wall of the muscle, muscular wall, let's put my teeth back in, the muscular wall of the artery and the wall of the vein? the vein has got the valve to it, but only the veins in these parts, the extremities, you see, the lower abdomen and legs, arms, you don't find those veins everywhere is that because of the distance they have to travel? with the vein's with the valves in everywhere , yes, it's because they've got to somehow or other, you've got to somehow or other get the blood back up to the heart again, it's not under pressure is it any more, cos it's lost a lot of its pressure and the way it gets back to the heart of course that is it's lying alongside the bones and the arteries and as you're walking around, okay, the arteries are still having the pressure working, the muscles are still working and the vein lies next to it and the blood is able to be milked up, it's milked back up to a non return valve, that shuts off and it can't drop back down any further and the next bit does the next bit up, okay, and then that shuts off and eventually it gets back to the heart and the capillaries what will that look like when it's bleeding? their bleeding capillaries bright red oozing oozing, not bright red, but mixed, it's mixed bleeding really you've got from capillary and very often in any injury you'll get mixed bleeding, but are you going to be too concerned and analyze too carefully whether it's blood from a vein or blood from an artery if it's pouring out? no it's blood that's being lost at a high rate, it's dangerous whatever ver vessel it's coming from, so you will stop it by pad, pressure and elevation, you will attempt to reduce the loss of blood and assist the formation of a clot, once you've assisted in the formation of a clot, by putting the pad on it, would it be sensible to have a little peak to see how it's doing? no, no it would not would it, so leave it in position and if you need to put another pad over the top, then do that, more pressure and a bigger pad, never take the original one off, okay, leave it on otherwise you'll open up the wound again and you'll have all that problem over again, so pad, pressure and elevate, what if it don't work? why don't you put say another pad on top, more pressure, it's still not working and you've tried it again and it's still not working pressure point then you can go to indirect pressure and try to control the flow of bleeding by using indeed direct pressure, away from the wound, but where an artery, okay, is running near a bone, so you can compress the artery against the bone squash it hard, and for the arm you'd use this one under here called the breaking now press, move your biceps muscle away and press underneath there, you can perhaps try to feel it for yourself, did you do that this morning or not? or yesterday? i did do it yes mm, okay feel the pulse so you felt that and that pulse point there if you press on it hard enough you can actually stop the one in the wrist and of course that is controlling the flow of blood to the rest of the arm and you leave a pressure point closed off like that for no more than ten minutes, because if you left it on for too long that it means not sufficient blood's getting to the rest of the, the limbs and the limb must have its blood supply, so you leave the pressure on for ten minutes and then release it, say for ten seconds just so say that the hand comes back pinkish again and if it's not slowing down, back on with the pressure again for another ten minutes and that's how you use it, tap off, ten minutes at the most, tap on for a little while, if it's leaked again reapply, ten minutes at the most, tap on again, okay and that's how you'll control it, so if you do have a sit a situation where the bleeding was bad cos you've got a, a limb severed, you couldn't perhaps put sufficient direct pressure over that limb, this done, right, to control the bleeding then you could use indirect pressure, here, breaking or here, right in the, no playing now please, no trying to find this one right now, do this one tonight, in bed and the old lady said now what are you doing to me, never you mind, go to sleep find time say they just going for a walk, yeah, and you come across this, say this young kid has been climbing up the trees and hurt his leg, you're the only person around, so you, you've got to get help yeah, cos he's losing a lot of blood, but you've got to stop his blood same time as you've got to get help, yeah, so what's the priority, you just stay stop the blood you just stay with him? mm, eventually, hopefully somebody will come along or hopefully the blood will, the blood will slow down enough to slow it off will clot yeah that's what i mean, could you put a tourniquet on just for ten minutes to try and get help? you don't put the tourniquet on at all, don't mention tourniquet in, in first aid work, it's a no no area say if it's in such a secluded place you know if you're gonna be there for twenty, er for days, there's no help well if he was there and you came along well that's two people, so it's not that secluded, okay, so we have to look on the positive side, if at the end of the day you're going to get to a situation where, okay, you can see that the ordinary erm true blue course of events is just not gonna work, then it's down to you, you have then got to make up your own mind what you're going to do for the casualty and your own safety, okay, if somebody had been bleeding that long and you couldn't of got help for them, what would your priority now probably be? what do you think they'd be like by now? dead they'd probably be unconscious and they may of stopped breathing, okay, so you know, your priority changes as your time scale changes and you have to be aware of what to do and what is possible to do next okay? if you decide at the end of the day the thing to do is to pick up this kid and run like hell for somewhere you can gain, wave for help, or put him in the car and drive like mad to the hospital, then you might just do that, even though it breaks all the golden rules of first aid that's what i mean, because if, i guarantee if someone was put in a situation with blood everywhere and that, with being the first aider they've got to stay calm, but i, i'd say fifty per cent of all people would pick that kid up and run like hell right, they probably would especially if you could it's just a natural reaction, you know but i mean how about little mel, wouldn't pick him up it'd break him start digging you'll be needing a burial won't you? seeing as you didn't buy me a pint today yeah, you might just do that, as i say all we can do is tell you what is possible, okay, there are going to be in your own instinct about what is the sensible thing to do and the right thing to do in that incident and take charge, and you will just get on and do the very, very best that you can, you know what you need to do, you need to stop the bleeding, you know what the person needs, he needs medical aid quickly okay? but if you're in a situation where that's not possible then you'll do the very best you can, but you're always going to be on the look out for the priorities as they change, cos once the person stops breathing they become unconscious, they stop breathing, their heart stops, then everything else has to wait and you have to try and get on with that, okay? yeah so indirect pressure, that one then is the feneral and that's the breaking, they're the only two we worry about, okay, the feneral and if they ask where it is don't sort of put two hands over and hang on to your crutch like mad because that isn't really where the feneral artery is okay, it is where the trouser crease meets the line of the groin and it's skin deep, okay, so you'll pushing onto it you'd probably have to put your two fingers and a pad and your knuckles right in there, alright and you'll feel it yourself best when you're lying down and your knee just up like that, that's when you can feel it best because you can push in harder then, cos you've relaxed your stomach and that's another tip for putting pressure on it when you've got somebody who needs that, you need to relax the stomach muscle, but you manage to put pressure up there okay? righto the abdomen muscles not the stomach muscles right, everyone okay so far then? alright, so we've done all that lot and you've got your external bleeding under control you've used indirect pressure and direct pressure, now's another topping, there's always is isn't there? you can see the person is in shock, there's no sign of any blood internal bleeding internal bleeding, right so the internal bleeding sometimes shows itself externally, for example if i had damage to my lungs or severe damage to the inside of my lungs i'd cough up blood and that's in, what do you think? what colour? frothy red very red and frothy, frothy colour blood, okay, supposing i had er damaged the lining of the stomach, or perhaps i've had an ulcer that i've perforated, and i was coughing up blood from the stomach what colour might that be? mm, the fluid's gran granuled grained, granuley, browney, coffee coffee colour, browney, that's from the stomach okay? supposing that the damage to the intestines was further down in, in gut area here okay, and there was bleeding in the gut motions motions, right, black and smelly, okay, and according to how the different colour of the motion be there, or the different colour of the grains were there would give an indication of how long this'd been going on or how far up the gut it was, and the damage was okay? supposing then that there was water with bloodstain in it, when somebody went to the toilet, urine, pass their urine, where, where would the damage be then do you think? bladder bladder or the kidneys kidneys, so it'd come out in there, okay, so those are the areas where damage int internal organs, but yet you still have some sign eventually of blood loss, but there are still some organs in the body where there is no sn nowhere at all an outlet, the liver and the spleen particularly, round here, and the liver and spleen have no outlet in, outside if they're damaged and they bleed internally, you will see the person as you say going into shock, okay, and there may be eventually, not immediately, bruising and swelling and tenderness round the area, bruising is only internal bleeding showing itself, yes, so what can you do with that person? hospital before they get to hospital yes all the treatment for shock, nil by mouth, all the treatment for shock and urgent need of aid, how else might you suspect that there was internal damage and possible bleeding going on? high blood pressure well i'm thinking more of the patient might tell you the patient might tell you what if, if the casualty was still able to talk, they might be able to give you the history of how they became like they were, received a blow, got kicked, fell onto something hard, okay and so on and so on, they might be able to tell you themselves, give some indication, right, you would remove and loosen off all tight clothing, okay, loosen off the clothing for them and then treat them for shock and then refer them to urgent medical attention, nil by mouth on any account, okay? any questions? just one point, you said er passing water through the ur er blood through the urine is two things er it could be the bladder it could be the bladder or what? it could be the kidneys okay are there any questions there, is there anything that you want to ask? no don't forget again all the things that you recognize from somebody who was suffering from shock right don't forget how we treat them okay and we'll run a film for you now erm, no perhaps we won't we'll deal with the severe bleeding on the palm of the hand and get that out of the way yes, okay we'll show you now how to put on a pressure bandage for severe bleeding and then we'll put the film on and you can see the whole lot again, okay, so just be in the room if you just push and push and push on the window and er the hand has gone through the window, right, and there's no glass imbedded but it's cut right across the palm and the reason that we show you this one is because the artery that feeds all these fingers comes and the thumb comes up in an arch like that okay, so the artery comes down, up in an arch across the palm of the hand, so the fingers and thumb all get a blood supply, so when you cut the palm of your hand there is a lot of blood pumping out, okay, so what's the first thing i'd tell her to do? elevate yeah, what else could she do? put her hand on top pressure on have i touched her blood at all? no and i have not, and i wouldn't want to unless she was in such a condition, can you manage to sit there like that for a moment while i'll manage to go and get a pad? you okay at the moment? so then i'll need to go and get my pads and my bandages so that i can put this right, you'll need two of these for this bandage, the first one, you open out so that the pad is going to go into the palm of her hand and that over the top and she is going to grab hold of the other one like that, okay, now we've got the wad in there and she's hanging on to it, but it was the sterile part of the bandage as i undid it that went on to the wound, there is no time for dressing here is there? no, okay so now we're going to actually put this bandage, sorry have i got that round the right way? no think it goes round the bottom no, haven't, sorry thank you, now we're going to bind this up, you take the long edge, sorry that goes down the long edge comes first of all over the two fingers and round the base of the thumb excuse me, we can't see can i, can we ask you to, can i move you forward, forward, that way or would you like to stand up, stand up and come round perhaps if you would like to go round the come round yeah stand at the back or something yeah, come round and have a look if you want to, come and stand up here close if you want to okay, round the base of your thumb, basically what we want to do is we want to clamp these fingers in so they can't come un unstuck, we want to push them together because she can't keep them shut like that, but the next thing is that you come round to the back where the little finger is, the next time you come round here, you're gonna come round to about the first thumb joint okay and then you're gonna go over the top okay and if you come round again the little thumb, by, by the little finger, you come round again to the thumb joint okay, come over the top again, round, we're just making really like the figure of eight, but all the time we're keeping off of this wrist here and i'm keeping her fingers in, are you alright still? yes yes, okay and we're still coming round yet again and the last one cos she's got quite a large fist, i'll take it over the top, round the back and this one now i can tie, tie it off, sorry tie it off on the back of her hand now, i don't want to tie it off on the front cos in a minute i want to put this into a sling not too tight? how are your fingers? alright i've left one thing showing, this if you, you'd got, you tuck it in at the top there if you've got some room, right, i've left her thumb out, so that if this is too tight i can check the circulation, if the pink comes back it's okay, can you get your fingers out? no they're all tucked well in, now she needs it still to be up here, right, so what's the best thing that we can do to make sure it stays up in the high position? high sling a high sling, now we can put on a high sling for her, okay, that goes up there and now, are you still alright? still okay? we're just gonna put a sling on for you, and if the blood comes pumping through that what will i do? put another one on a bigger pad over the top, there's the sling and towards your casualty and place it on the body down the straight and the elbow and the point at the same side, tuck this hand under and tuck all this underneath the arm and bring the rest of it round the back, tie it up as close to the fingers as you can and try to remember how to do a reef knot, at least always make sure it's firm, is that alright for you? comfortable and firm? once you've done the knot put the ends out of the way, straight away and then last of all just finish off this corner here, if you've got too much material okay, tuck it out of the way, you don't want it dangling there out the way and how does this one go? mr chairman, ladies and gentlemen. we're all aware that for th for their number patients with superficial bladder cancer provide an enormous amount of our workload, and for reasons partly of husbanding our precious resources and also because lots of these patients come up with negative checks reducing the amount of irritation and upset to them it would be useful if we could do less than we do. many people have looked at this before and they've come up with various prognostic markers, some of which are extremely complicated. but perhaps the erm the simplest erm prognostic routes were suggested by the m r c working parties which general urology which was mentioned in the last presentation. they combined erm the four hundred and fifty odd erm four hundred and seventeen sorry patients in er several m r c studies and looked at them from the point of view of erm prognostic markers for occurrence and they came up with two factors which overridingly were more important than the others. the first one was the result of the three month check cystoscopy either positive or negative and the second one the number of tumours at presentation either single or multiple. and from these two factors you can erm form three prognostic routes. a low risk route will have a single tumour at diagnosis and a negative three month cystoscopy. an intermediate risk group with multiple tumours at diagnosis or a positive three month cystoscopy. and a high risk group, multiple tumours at diagnosis and a positive three month cystoscopy. the suggested protocols for these patients were as follows. the low risk category one patients would go straight onto annual check cystoscopy following the first three month check. the intermediate risk group would have a three monthly cystoscopy for a year and then go onto six monthly for a further year and then annual thereafter. and the high risk group would have three monthly check cystoscopies for two years and then go onto annual check cystoscopies. any patient who recurs after the three month check cystoscopy is reassessed going back to the beginning and they may be reassigned to one of the the o o one or other of the groups erm depending on that. one of the criticisms or possible criticisms of the m r c figures was that these were all patients who had been entered into superficial bladder cancer studies and they don't therefore re represent all because people are selected to go into the trial and perhaps they are lower risk patients than others and in fact i believe that the recurrence rate in the m r c studies are lower than you would expect for er superficial bladder cancer in general. and so we did a sort of what if analysis looking a at the impact of implementing erm these er prognostic categories on our patients. now this was a retrospective analysis bit it was done on prospectively recorded information. hundred and fifty nine patients all come as presenting with superficial transitional cell carcinoma of the blood, and they all have prospectively follow-up date for more than twelve months following the first check cystoscopy. you'll see that there is a mix er er of grades and stages and because it's the the real world erm in some of the tumours a a precise t category was not erm decided by the pathologist. again a mix of single and multiple tumours. when you look at er the arrangement of these patients in the prognostic groups you'll see that the information from the er the number of tumours at presentation and the the result of the three-month check cystoscopy is quite independent of grade and stage. er there's no well there looks to be a trend towards higher grade er in in category three patients an and again more er more t one tumours. i the differences are not statistically significant. now this is a a sort of cost benefit benefit analysis based on what would have happened if we'd followed these protocols ourselves. you'll see that the majority of patients fall into the low risk group with progressively smaller numbers in the intermediate and high risk group. erm four patients erm fro from the group overall subsequently developed cancer. if we look at the actual numbers of cystoscopies performed you will you see that there were the vast majority of work was done in the lower and intermediate risk group patients er and the positive er cystoscopy rate erm was much lower in the lower risk group, as you would expect, than in the higher risk group. if we had followed the m r c protocols er the numbers er would have been much smaller in the lower risk group and erm the erm there was more effort placed in the high risk group than erm there would have been we actually did. and a as a result of that our positive cystoscopy rate was more comparable across the three groups than it was previously. you can only say what's . what this a doctor in this policy would have done in terms of delaying diagnosis in the lower risk group patients because clearly the other groups of patients are actually having more cystoscopies performed, but because it's a retrospective analysis you cannot say that you are advancing the diagnosis of er of more frequently occurring tumours. there were thirty tumours from patients that had their diagnosis delayed by a mean of four months. if we followed the rules er the m r c rules strictly one of the lower risk group of patients was a g three p t one tumour and that patient er progressed and in fact all the patients who progressed, all the four out of the hundred and fifty nine patients who progressed erm from the total group had either g two or g three p t one tumours at diagnosis, and i think there's a very strong case for making these a totally separate group of patients erm for follow up. that just shows graphically what the change in the workload would have been. this is our actual workload and this is what it would have happened if we'd followed the m r c er protocols. there would actually be a two percent increase in the number of cystoscopies done but the work would have be been much better targeted er than we actually we actually did. so in conclusion adoption of the m r c follow up follow up policy would have resulted in targeting of cystoscopic follow up to higher risk group patients, a two percent increase in the cystoscopic resources required and delayed diagnosis of tumour progression in one patient, and as i've said i i think that g three p t one tumours should be excluded from er this type of protocol. perhaps other uses of er this type of erm protocol would be to use . flexible cyst er flexible check cystoscopy early in the lower risk group patients, and perhaps give the intermediate and higher risk group patients prophylactic chemotherapy. thank you. er i think it would be useful to have er mr back and we could er discuss both of these papers together. questions? .microphone number one. p k from lincoln. a question to both the speakers. do you consider the smoker as a high risk group and do you change your attitude in checking them ? erm i think it j just adds a little bit of complexity t to it. i think trying to keep something very simple erm you know a simple rule for everyone to follow and all that that following this protocol requires is that er that the urologist is at least partially sighted. it doesn't depend on a pathologist or any oth other information. yes i i'd agree. i i think if you've got a moderately or well differentiated tumour and i it's solitary and it's small and they're clear at three months tell them to stop smoking by all means . can i just ask you both er are you unwilling to modify the standard follow up er cystoscopy for g three tumours and for t one tumours, or is it just for the g three t one. i think steve you were you were suggesting that it was only the g three t one . erm well all the patients who pr progressed had either g two or g three p t one tumours at diagnosis. they seemed to be a very high risk group of patients. right and a a g three p t a? erm well there quite a few of those and none of them progressed. microphone three . , chelmsford. if i come to you at three months with a p t a tumour, that's grade one or two, how long would you be er willing to accept that i should have a recurrence before you treat it? how but you sorry a g two? a a g one g one p t a tumour. how how soon should i get it treated? does it matter i think it probably it probably doesn't. i mean the r the risk of progression is i i i would think is minuscule erm and erm you're only talking about changes in size not risk of of erm muscle invasion, and i think therefore so if it's not causing me any symptoms i should ? no what i'm say what i'm saying is that that leaving it for a few months probably isn't going to do you any harm. i mean clearly it will continue to grow and therefore any that you do will be will be greater. the longer you leave it i do think answer for that one er erm i'm not aware of any paper that's published presenting that and we came as close as we could to answering that but nobody really knows for sure. be before we start can i make two quick announcements, one er i made at the last lecture, that is there is a public lecture given by baroness at five fifteen today on the subject of the soviet union and wh where does it go, erm and that's in . the other announcement erm is er dr has asked me to address some delinquents, no that's not fair, some er hard working but misguided students erm tt er who are doing a political processes course, a sort of pale imitation of this course, erm probably find none of them are here today, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's b let's not be shy now, is erm is ian here? is james here? yeah. good. is abe here? right? is damien here? is christian here? at least they're consistent in their delinquency aren't they? er is tim is tim here? right. well those people i've, who are here, erm i'm told by dr and i'll read this because i can't understand it myself political processes, please remember he says that tutorials for part three commence next monday and tuesday the twenty first and twenty second but papers for only two of the seven groups are currently in the folders. if you have not completed your paper, then please do so without delay. papers are missing from the names i've just read out. if you have removed a paper from one of the folders, please return it immediately . alright? if you want to know what that actually means see dr but he asked me to read it out. okay this is the fourth in our series and the second on the presidency and i want to do two things in this lecture. the first is to spell out to you the precise erm constitutional position of the president and the second, and perhaps more interestingly, is to talk about the notion of presidential power. erm now i know that most of you have memorized the constitution but because i suffer from alzheimer's i had to bring mine with me to remind myself erm what the constitution says about the, the powers of the presidency. erm now what powers are given to the president of the united states by the constitution of the united states? there's to be a special er sweet or something, bar of chocolate for those who get these questions right. what powers does the constitution of the united states give to the president? not a single offer? gives him the executive. first sentence of sect article two section one says the executive power shall be vested in a president of the united states of america full stop. right, later on it describes in enormous detail how the president is chosen and the electoral system and then under section two it gives several specific powers that the president has and i would like at least one contribution from this packed assembly here. commander in chief of the armed forces. commander in chief of the armed forces. the president of the united states is commander in chief of the armed forces. or act as it actually says in the constitution,the president shall be commander in chief of the army and navy of the united states and of the militia of the several states erm there wasn't an airforce then so by extension it's assumed that he commands the airforce as well. okay, commander in chief. right. we're making progress. another power of the president given to him by the constitution? yes, that's dealt with actually under the leg legislative section of the constitution but still i, i'll buy er i'll buy that. nominations. nominations to what? judiciary. yes. ambassadors. yes. working hard this man. who's gonna help him? what do you understand by the term nomination? does he have the power of appointment? right i shall read aloud, all together, chant this in your sleep he shall have power let's read it all he shall have power by and with, by and with the advice and consent of the senate to make treaties he shall nominate and by and with the advice and consent of the senate shall appoint ambassadors other public ministers and consuls judges of the supreme court and all other officers of the united states whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for . interesting isn't it? the president of the united states is not free to appoint whoever he chooses as secretary of state or secretary of the treasury or as director of the c i a or director of the f b i or the secretary of defence or the justice of the supreme court or ambassador to london or anybody else except by and with the consent of the senate. so remarkable restriction. does the president of the united states have any powers over the congress? does he have any way of controlling or directing what congress does? at the back there. the veto, yes we touched upon that, that's that's stopping the congress from doing something rather than making them do something. no. so you can't dissolve a congress, there's a fixed term, i'll read you what the constitution says, it says the president shall from time to time give to the congress information on the state of the union you may have heard of the famous state of the union address to congress that the president makes on an annual basis and he shall recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient . so this is not a power here, this is again it's a recommendation, as with the appointment it's a recommendation to the congress. and i think what that emphasises in the constitution is that the founding fathers, who devised the constitution, saw the congress as the central organ of american government and they saw the presidency as an appendage. and i think what i was trying to say, get over last time was that this has been in a sense practically inverted in american politics today. that the presidency is now seen as the heart of the american system and the congress is seen as a sort of unfortunate if necessary check and control on the presidency. but if you think about it in contemporary terms i i was giving a lecture in london er a couple of weeks ago erm on the subject of erm america's changing foreign policy under clinton if you just think about foreign policy making and who makes it, and questions of consistency and you think about some of the crises that are going on in the world from bosnia and so on what does the constitution tell us? the constitution tells us that the president of the united states is commander in chief of american armed forces and as commander in chief he can despatch american armed forces to any part of the world he chooses to. there's a nice story about my, one of my favourite presidents, i told you last time, theodore roosevelt, roosevelt got very frustrated with congress so he sent the american navy, he had no money, they wouldn't give him any money, so he sent the american navy to the philippines and he said to congress if you want them back again you'd better vote some more money cos they haven't got any fuel erm which is a fairly odd way of proceeding one might think. so if you think of it, let's just take, take these, these in turn the president is commander in chief, what does that mean? can the president of the united states commit america to war? who possesses the war making power? and the answer is the congress. so although the president is given by the constitution the power of commander in chief, in the same document at the same time congress is given the power to declare war. the president, it says in the constitution which i've just read, the president has the power to make treaties to make agreements with foreign countries. we've seen treaties on er nuclear disarmament, we've seen treaties on control of the panama canal in recent years. the president has the power to make treaties but the constitution says only, only if those treaties are approved by two thirds of the senate. and if you want to try to understand say something like the er iran contra scandal then part of the roots of that scandal lie in the american constitution in the way that there is,th that the president is controlled by other aspects of the constitution. the president is not free to choose, to start wars wherever he feels like it, the president is not free to make agreements with any country he feels like making it with and some presidents have had to learn the hard way. if you remember your, from, from your history at school the, the, the first world war the americans in the historic role of arriving at wars rather late erm came in to the first world war to win it for us erm and after it president wilson who used to be professor of politics at princeton, just put that in, er president wilson created, essentially cos we were all bankrupt at the time as usual er the americans the only ones who had any money left at the end of the wars, erm president wilson helped to create the league of nations, the forerunner of the united nations but the u s senate refused to ratify the agreement. the american president was then left with a situation in which he'd created a club which he hims he himself couldn't join. er so that there is built into the constitution then, checks and controls on the president. and if you look at the literature on the american presidency in the post second world war years you will find two themes two related themes. one is a theme of er presidential frustration the idea that the presidency of the united states is too weak an institution to cope with the responsibilities that it faces. and this was a particularly popular view in the nineteen sixties and you found lots of people arguing that the american system needed reform that here was the president who was hamstrung by congress, or in the er in the er question i've set in the, in the programme, you know, the president is less gulliver in lilliput, you know, as more like pinocchio in lilliput erm that the president has enormous responsibilities, that the nation looks to the president, the world looks to the president but the president can't do anything and that you need an increase in presidential power. now that was true until the late sixties early seventies and of course er you find there the election to the o to the white house of one richard milhous nixon, conservative republican er a man who was not above hiring gangsters and burglars to do his work for him, and this produced a reaction and if you read the, the presidential literature of the nineteen seventies you will find the opposite, you will find er political scientists, all american, er demanding reforms of the american system, not to make the president more powerful but to make the president less powerful. indeed the best selling book of the nineteen seventies in american politics by a famous historian arthur schlesinger junior called, it was called the imperial presidency. you don't have to read the book, it's rubbish, but i mean you can just say, if you remember the title, the imperial presidency, here was a view that the presidency had become dominant, the presidency had grown out of all proportion to the intentions of the founding fathers and needed to be reined back. and then of course you've got ronald reagan and history ended with ronald reagan. the what you've got here was an ideological debate. in the nineteen sixties you had broa this is a broad brush approach, you had liberal, quote unquote, progressive, quote unquote, presidents faced with conservative congresses and the conservative congress was preventing the liberal president from taking action. ninety five percent of american political scientists are liberal democrats they didn't like that, so they wrote books criticizing congress and saying the president ought to have more power. but then the good old american public elected nixon so here you had al capone in the white house and these same political scientists wrote books saying hey hang on, when we said more power to the president we meant more power for our kind of president, you know, jack, you know, and l b j and the boys, not this nixon, tricky dicky character. what we want here is controls on the president. er and it's, it's very odd, very odd because, you know, there's an ideological reaction. faced with a conservative president the liberals want to control the presidency, faced with a liberal presidency er conservative congress want to control the presidency. so there's a, there's a tug of war here and it's partly institutional, it's partly a congressional presidential conflict and it's partly a liberal conservative conflict about the nature er of the presidency as an institution. okay well let me say something now about what political power means er to an american president and what its limits are. and what i will do is to look erm tt in some detail at er an analysis of a man r called richard newstat i mentioned last time, mr shirley williams, and richard newstat wrote a book in nineteen sixty called presidential power and that book is now in whatever, what it is, i don't know, seventh or eight edition and it's probably still the single best selling book on the american presidency and er for good reason because it, it, it raises an, an argument which is really quite simple but often neglected. before i do that let me just digress and say one word about books, i've had a few people ask me about books erm i gather that the distinguished durham bookshops have sold out of my wonderful book but i gather that lorries are hurtling up motorways with planes are landing as we speak, erm there are an enormous number of books on american politics, most of them are identical er with different covers. it takes at least five americans to write a book erm they're all multi- authored volumes erm for, for most of your purposes, for almost all your purposes er and certainly for basic reading for, for lectures and, and tutorials it really doesn't matter which one you read erm there are, i mean there are in the library i think the last time i counted them about twenty five or thirty general textbooks on american politics, it doesn't really matter er which one you read. some are better than others and one of course is extraordinarily distinguished. okay. let me then say a little bit about newstat and presidential power and, and if you remember my last lecture i said that he was the man who coined the phrase that presidential power is the power to persuade. now er dick newstat er didn't invent that phrase, he got it in fact from, from president harry truman tt erm in the nineteen forties. truman once said he was asked what the job of the presidency involved and truman once said i sit here all day trying to persuade people to do the things they ought to have the sense to do without my persuading them. but the word persuade occurs several times. why, because i have, in the previous discussion we've just had, i emphasised the limits on presidential power, on direction. what er newstat does though is something quite interesting he says well we all know, well i hope you all know, that there are limits on presidential power and we all know that the president can't direct congress, we know the president can't appoint anybody without consulting congress, we know the president can't control the supreme court, we know all these limitations but nevertheless, leaving that to one side, pushing that to one side, there are major powers here. commander in chief of the armed forces let's take, let's take er cases of presidential power being used by presidents to see what it in fact means in practice. and i'll just, just discuss briefly two of the cases that he uses and they're, you know, they're, they're old now, i haven't read the most recent edition of his book, he might have updated his case studies but it doesn't really matter he takes two cases er one relating to erm the conduct of the korean war in the nineteen fifties, and the other relating to the desegregation of southern schools, also in the nineteen fifties, as examples of presidential power. now let me just, let me just run, run the story by you. here comes a brief history of the korean war starting in about, yes, about ninety seconds on the korean war erm north korea invades south korea and won. the americans decided that an armed resistance was necessary and they went to the united nations, shades of bosnia here, they went to the united nations to get support and, as luck would have it, the soviets were sulking, this was quite common in the nineteen forties and fifties, and the a the soviet ambassador to the u n was having a sulk and was refusing to attend the security council and he therefore persuaded the security council to pass a resolution er producing a united nations force to aid plucky little south korea against its vicious oppressive northern neighbours and so the korean war started and the united nations' forces were commanded by one general douglas macarthur, general douglas macarthur, in case you don't know, won the second world war single handedly er it's not funny, he believed it. erm he, he won the second world war in the pacific and after the war he became emperor of japan, well that wasn't his title but that's how he saw it. tt and so he was then sent to er to er wo mi mop up this little skirmish in korea. tt with the aid of the good general the er united nations army and the south koreans pushed the north koreans back into north korea and er macarthur's view was well while we're winning why don't we keep going, you know, perhaps we could take over china as well erm and the north koreans were going backwards at a vast rate of knots and in came the chinese the chinese army, it stood at that time i think at twenty five million men erm and, and douglas started losing again, sad really isn't it? er at this point douglas said er he thought it'd be a jolly good idea if they dropped a few of these new bombs that they'd discovered at hiroshima and nagasaki er on these slit eyed people and that would really show them who was in control of the world er now this, as you might expect, caused something of a problem to president truman. now president truman er was a man of erm limited intelligence but extraordinary courage and tenacity and erm er his previous career involved a failed haberdashery store which went bankrupt, er and then acted as a bag man for a sort of organized crime in kansas city but that's, you know, you've gotta get on the job training somewhere haven't you? anyway he wasn't viewed, he was not viewed by, by the emperor of japan, sorry douglas macarthur, as er as a very impressive figure. in the end harry truman decided that he really couldn't stomach any more of douglas macarthur this, this guy was clearly off the planet, you know er and so er president truman sacked macarthur and er replaced him as commander in korea. and this is an ex example, as er newstat first presents it, of presidential power. here is a man, he's commander in chief, he's the president of the united states he's faced with a, a recalcitrant and difficult general who was sabotaging the purposes of his campaign, extending the campaign beyond proper limits and the president has to show who's boss, and he showed him who's boss and he sacked him, great, presidential power in action. but there's a fly in the ointment and the fly in the ointment is that general douglas macarthur was a war hero, general douglas macarthur was one of the most popular men in the united states and harry truman was one of the least popular men in the united states. er harry truman could've run for the presidency in nineteen fifty two but chose not to. he chose not to, not because he wasn't enjoying it, he loved it, but he chose not to because he knew he would lose and part of the reason knew he would lose was because he sacked douglas macarthur. one of the consequences of sacking douglas macarthur was that the u s congress called hearings on television into truman's conduct of the korean war and truman's public popularity fell even further. when douglas macarthur returned to america, macarthur had not been back to america since nineteen forty one this is ten years later, he'd been running japan in the meantime there was one of these huge ticker-tape parades in new york, he was the welcoming hero and president truman was seen as the villain and some analysts argue that that decision, that single decision to sack macarthur may well have cost harry truman the american presidency. and that's presidential power? the other example that er er newstat uses is about segregation in southern schools. here what we had was a case of the supreme court, well i'll say more about this later, but the supreme court declaring segregation by race to be unconstitutional and requiring that these decisions be recognized and enforced by relevant authorities. most of the southern states resisted this and in one particular state one that's sprung to prominence in recent times, the state of arkansas er and its capital little rock, the then state governor, who wasn't then bill clinton but a man called orville forbus defied the supreme court's order and on a historic day in nineteen fifty four a little troupe of black children trooped up to the local high school and were met by armed, armed police and turned away. president eisenhower, who was also a war hero, er republican president er when he heard of forbus's erm actions er he er he sent federal troops to little rock, arkansas, and on the second day of the school year federal troops in full combat gear, you know with, with machine guns and all the rest of it and er helmets and stuff, escorted the black children into school. and this was another demonstration or confirmation at one level of presidential power. here you had the governor of a state in a federal system choosing to act in a particular way and the president overriding him and demonstrating his power. well that's certainly one way of looking at it erm but it's not the way that eisenhower looked at it, and it's not the way that many people looked at it erm tt afterwards. erm i think the, the point that's being made here is that even within the defined areas of authority given to him by the constitution, the president finds it very difficult to act unless certain specific conditions are met. erm the president finds that people only obey his decisions if certain conditions are met and these conditions rarely come together. let me, let me just illustrate that in the case of sacking macarthur and in the case of sending federal troops to little rock to des desegregate schools, the orders were readily carried out. macarthur didn't say to truman hey you can't sack me, i'm the emperor of japan, no? i've, i've got the divine right of kings or something. he recognized the president's authority. he didn't always recognize the president's authority, there's a wonderful, there's a wonderful true story of er er at some point in the korean war truman flew out from los angeles and macarthur flew out from er korea and they met in one of the pacific islands, i forget which one i er wake island i think, and, and on the runway you had the president's plane at one end and macarthur's plane at the other end you see, and truman sits there waiting for macarthur to come to him and macarthur sits there waiting for the president to come to him, you see, and nobody moves. so after about half an hour of this truman sends an order saying tell that son of a bitch to get over here. and reluctantly macarthur agreed to come and talk to the president. but when the order came signed by the president you know, hands up, who's commander in chief, not so fast macarthur, you're out of a job erm macarthur accepted that. when er the army was instructed by the president to go to little rock and enforce the desegregation of schools, they went and they did it. but how often, how often are presidents' decisions or orders complied with? and only if certain conditions are met, i would argue or as richard newstat argued and i agree with him so he must be right, erm the first is that in this decision the president's involvement was unambiguous unambiguous, there was no question about it that here you had the president directly, personally involved in a one to one communication. how often has that happened? most of the time the president works through other people. so you're sitting in your office and some, you know your, your boss comes in and says hey the president says so and so, but the president doesn't usually say it to you he says it to somebody else so there's always, there's always a possibility of ambiguity, somebody else has interpreted the president's message in a particular way. but these cases, douglas macarthur had his piece of paper, harry truman's signature on the bottom, you're fired. you know, this is not capable of many different interpretations, it's clearly not a promotion, you know it's clearly not a reward for good behaviour, you know it's, it's a, it's a sanction. the second is, the second condition is that the president's language was plain and simple. there was no question of er, again, ambiguity creeping in. there's the classic story of erm at the time of the cuban missile crisis er nikita khrushchev in nineteen sixty two said to jack kennedy hey you want us to get our missiles out of cuba, why don't you get your missiles out of turkey? you know, you're worried about us threatening you on your borders, you've been threatening us on our borders you get rid of yours we'll get rid of ours, fair? seems reasonable. eighteen months previously president kennedy had ordered the withdrawal of the american missiles in turkey but eighteen months later those missiles were still there and when kennedy was presented with this bargain, bargaining counter by khrushchev he sort of shouted at his chiefs of staff and secretary of defence and anyone else he could shout at and sort of said what the hell are those missiles still doing in turkey, i told you eighteen months ago for god's sake get rid of them! and his adviser said well mr president you did say we should get rid of the missiles in turkey but you didn't say when you know, you didn't say by tuesday morning at ten o'clock or by next week or in three months' time, you just said withdraw the missiles from turkey. and what happened in practice was simply the turkish government made representations to the state department and said hey, you know, these bases, they provide a lot of work, you know, we have to provide empl alternative employment for these people so could we phase out this withdrawal over say a three year programme? and the state department said sure, you know, cos they didn't have a deadline, the president hadn't given a deadline. so that's usually the way things happen, the president can't spell out things and dot the is and cross the ts. so two conditions then, the president's involvement is unambiguous, the second that his language is plain. the third is that a president's decision is widely publicized. the sacking of macarthur was a public sacking, it was intended to be a public humiliation of macarthur, and that's what it was. but most government business doesn't take place on television most government business takes place behind closed doors. in most cases, on most issues, nobody knows what the president has decided. only his immediate advisers and staff know that. and where, where the president speaks publicly, then his orders are obviously much more likely to carry weight than if it's simply behind, behind closed doors. the fourth factor is that there's really no point in giving people orders or making up policies or decisions unless the people who receive the orders have the resources to carry them out. and in this case it was no big deal, a company of soldier you want a company of soldiers to go to little rock? no problem. you want er you want a letter carried by hand and given in to the hand of douglas macarthur? i think we can manage that. i think the resources of the american government can manage that. but if the president says hey, you know, go and win the war in vietnam for me, you know, that's a bit more tricky, a bit more tricky. doesn't, doesn't automatically follow just because the president expresses a wish that it, that it happens. and er fifthly then, the fifth condition is that those who receive presidential orders were in no doubt about the president's authority to give those orders. the president here remember is working under his powers as commander in chief directly from the constitution and nobody questioned it. if they had questioned it the chances of the orders being carried out would've been much less of course. so these are in a sense then the five factors making for compliance. five factors which make presidential power er a reality. erm and the question of course is, you know, how often do these circumstances occur? how often does presidential power take this form? er and the answer is not very often. that er in the ordinary course of business, life is different. and that although these are cases of power, the president has done er what he wanted to do, people have obeyed him, things have changed, something's happened, in both cases you will find that the actual order was the last thing the president wanted to do. douglas macarthur, as i said, was the most popular man in america. what harry truman wanted was for douglas macarthur to behave himself, he wanted douglas macarthur to stop giving impromptu press conferences, he wanted him to stop inventing strategy as he went without reference to the president, he simply wanted to restore the chain of command. and he sent er memo after memo to the commanders in korea advising them of what the guidelines were, what they were allowed to say, what they weren't allowed to say and so on. he had this meeting on wake island that i described to you when they wouldn't get out of the planes, all attempts to persuade macarthur to behave in a reasonable fashion. but he didn't. and truman felt that his authority as president was being directly challenged and he had no alternative but to sack macarthur. but his decision to sack macarthur was a failure in persuasion. he had failed to persuade macarthur to do what macarthur should have done. and the similar tale can be told of the, the episode in little rock. general dwight d eisenhower, when elected president of the united states, had absolutely zero interest, minus zero interest, in the question of racial integration. president eisenhower took the view that what happened in the states was really a matter for each state to decide. he was very concerned that the integration of the races might lead to violence and public disorder on a large scale. he spoke publicly about the need for each state to work out its own solution and erm earlier in that year, in fact it's nineteen fifty seven, i think i said fifty four before, er earlier in that year nineteen fifty seven er eisenhower said in a speech in r in response to a hypothetical question he said i can't imagine any set of circumstances that would ever induce me to send federal troops into any state to enforce the orders of a federal court . and six months later he did just that. what had changed was two things, one that the governor of the state had talked about defying the court rather than actually do it and secondly, that eisenhower had summoned forbus to see him at camp david, the president's summer retreat in maryland, and had a weekend of talks with forbus now i wasn't there, i was at primary school then, but i wasn't there as far as one can piece it together what, what eisenhower said to forbus was, you know, i don't really care what you do, but i don't want it on prime time national television, i don't want a scene, i don't want you to flagrantly, openly, publicly to flout the order of the court. there's more than one way to prevent segre to prevent integration, you can draw school boundaries in certain ways to effectively segregate schools if you want to, but let's not have this macho stuff on the school steps, armed guards, you know, er i mean er the pictures of mobs, that's the only expression for them i suppose, mobs of white people, you know, throwing, throwing bricks and bottles at seven and eight year old black children on the way to school, i don't want, i don't want, i can do without it. and he spent two days trying to impress this upon forbus and forbus went back to arkansas and did exactly what he said he was going to do. and this was construed by er president eisenhower as a direct snub to him, that he had tried to solve a situation, a difficult situation by persuasion and he'd failed. and so forbus was gonna get the smack of firm government and the federal troops went into little rock and sorted it out. now that's not what president eisenhower wanted, i've just read out this quotation, it's the last thing i want to do he says but he's driven to do it because the state governor refused to accept the arguments that, that eisenhower put to him. so what er richard newstat is saying in his argument is, is, and go back to the beginning of this lecture, is to say the constitution of the united states makes life extremely difficult for any president. there are a whole range of things he can't do, he can't direct congress, he can't appoint who he wants freely, he can't make treaties with whom he wants when he wants, he can't start wars if he wants to start wars all these controls are on the president but what i, what er newstat is saying is, over and above that, even in the areas where he appears to have constitutional authority, as a matter of practice it's very difficult for the president to exercise his authority and when the president does exercise his authority he does so at great cost to himself. it's damaging to the president to exert power over people. what is the lesson of all this, according to richard newstat the lesson is that techniques of persuasion are really the essential armoury of any president, any president who wishes to be successful. and you've got in at least two of the last three presidents in president clinton and president reagan, two presidents who, who intuitively understand that, who absorbed that message, they are great persuaders. they may not persuade you but they are great persuaders. ronald reagan er was the master of persuasion both through er his control and, and, and confidence on television and so forth but also in one to one conversations with er cabinet members or with er members of congress or whoever. a man of great personal charm, i'm told. bill clinton invests a huge amount of time in persuading people, he likes to work, he likes to work in teams and groups, he doesn't like to sit there giving orders. if you sit at the white house in the oval office and give orders then nothing will happen. you have to persuade people and persuasion is a constant process and so clinton is permanently engaged in persuading people to do the things they ought to have the sense to do without him persuading them. okay, thank you. come in. hello. hello what can we do for you sir? it's this shoulder stuffed up again. having trouble again? aye. headaches mhm. you know they're getting worse and worse and worse. i think it's the . wasn't it or something you gave me? yes. oh. that was january. oh aye. right . but now it's actually spread you know th the pain seems to be spread all right up here. ? aye. ah. well that's right enough what i thought. it's been a neural neuralgia right enough. mm. it's when i go to lie down at night you know that's it. and then the headaches just start. you know? when, when you were taking the was it better? no. no change at all? no. no change. no. no change at all. right. i don't want to give you anything that's gonna knock you silly or mm. dopey with it or anything like that. mm . i want to get the right sort of thing for you. you know i'm going around lightheaded with it y you know and dizzy with it you know? yeah. tt er been reading too much in this sunday post. she's got me this and that and all the rest of it you know? mm. but i don't know what you've got without waiting for any i couldn't tell you. i couldn't tell you. it's er i'm still trying to give up the cigarettes you know? i got those patches. so mm. do these patches seem alright though? have you seen ? yes. aye and they're oh. patches are fine. are they? aye. there's nothing wrong with them. it's very difficult to do er two things at the same time. mm. very difficult if you've got, and you know giving up is fine mm. if you haven't got a broken ankle or a sore, sore mhm. shoulder or no. headaches or, fine. mm. do it. no. but when you've got something else that's hard. mm. that's hard. mm. even with the patches. i went onto er you know rolling my cigarettes up myself so i wouldn't be mhm. smoking as much. i started blaming that for the headaches. they just seem to come on you know? mhm. well don't, don't do anything. just get rid of one thing before you start before you start doing anything else. mm . here we are now. that's that. actually travel this . ah. yes it'll, it'll travel right down to the tips ah. of your fingers. aye. if you feel that there's are you tonight? no. i'm on er i signed off oh right. too right. okay. fine. mm. you get started on that and we'll see you in about four weeks right. and see how it's doing. okay then. right. okay. thank you very much then doctor . okay. cheerio then. and i'll see you next, let me just make a note of this, on this form, a green form. another one that's dribbling now erm it's at forty eight what about this , what about this? yeah put it in the bucket, in the bucket can have that, no i don't want that at er three p m or thereabouts kieran i'm just trying to remember everybody in the same afternoon, to collect them all because of about six of them are being done around here right and so, that'll be great, thanks very much indeed for doing that and i'll give you the gift vouchers next week right, okay then right then we can go and have a purge at marks and sparks, no you don't need these no no right right i mean if you have a lot of people that come round you're gonna tell them that you're doing it, they might, i don't put that one in there and this donald goes in there and where's this men? what do you want? do you want a drink? did anybody find his cup? oh here, here's your cup i can't figure out what's up with you young man today me want a biscuit what? i think you got up too early wait a minute, did you have a good day at work? somebody at work, what's a matter love you've been like this since you've got up haven't you? you want your do do? catch it, catch, catch, put your bucket out, hold your bucket out if you want your do do, go and get it. ah, there you go say thank you , he's a right little misery when he wakes up ain't you boy? yeah get me a biscuit oh, anthony get me one too anything else while i'm here? how about a please yeah take them in the front room then, take them out to erm that's it, we're happy for two minutes you got the biscuits? charlotte's bringing them in, oh he sat there playing i notice his button i presume it must be off his cardigan yes yeah, i thought what's that white thing down there, oh yeah a button here's your pen, thanks mm, he went up about oh, i suppose he went up to bed about half twelve, quarter to one and he got up about quarter to three yeah yeah, he's up there sound-o, and he was up this way, he went up at one and got up about ten minutes after this one, so look what we've got, little boxes mm, very smart oh i see going to the cupboards are you? oh my favourite one yummy, yummy, yum so what did you do did you sort out, did they say anything about er, erm tea towels? paper towels? did anything happen, she said i go there at oh well that's fair enough innit? oh i won't do it on principle there you go somebody else can be where's my drink i had for breakfast? pass me his drink please, he's too plain lazy to get it where's my drink i had for breakfast? i don't know charlotte you give to, down the sink oh what you left this morning? yeah i'm not, don't tell them, i'm not gonna leave them in the sink all day while you decide if you're going to eat it or not no not my breakfast there you go just a booklet there to fill out i know, and i'm the one hundredth and seventh person to do it so this is tape one, side a not my breakfast, my drink i had this morning put you down as a stranger shall i? and when i woke er, and when i woke up sorry and i had my breakfast what would you like to go down as a scrubber? mummy my drink, mummy my drink i never thought of that actually i was thinking of scrubbing the kitchens and that or maybe we would, or maybe we would put that down no, i don't think so, you'll probably get, get had up for having a erm brothel oh look at that i've lost me pen now, bloody thing's, okay occupation? what's your occupational hazard? i am i'm not putting down there just do the washer upper what's the matter in the oxford dictionary alex a washer upper can i have a drink? you oh i know her , erm secretary i didn't how do you spell that? s e c secret, a r y oh yeah, i've never looked at it like that before, yeah, ah, ah ah you two, what is going on? why do we have this fighting this in the front room show mummy ah it depends what his toys are at home he's got enough of them well like you say he's probably got hey mum yes mum yes yes this is my milk i get out of the fridge oh you was going to the fridge for that was you? yes drink milk, no, no and me you want one more do you? there you are then, you don't want one? me, thank you mum er der you want to choose one there, they been very busy, have they been very busy up there the old canteen then? erm, it's not bad i'm probably doing mum i want a drink of milk a hundred and fifty odd meals a day alright, a hundred and fifteen? fifty oh that's a lot yeah it is quite a lot, erm you know like some days you can have a really like you never everything on the menu is like really messy yeah and say like say it takes absolutely ages to clean the dishes and pots you know, but like you say it was erm chili con carne, erm tuna and celery pie, what else was there on? erm seafood vol au vent oh no problem something for everybody, see i go really easy dishes, i mean you've got your veggies and salad by all that yeah i mean nothing like burns into the pot you know what i mean? yeah so it wasn't too bad ah, it's got here yum oh, regional accents yeah i can put that down can't i? mm, cos they're not, not no, that's what i thought no i say it wouldn't relate to any accent in england anyway no oh we've emptied it too much tell you what don't play with these shall we go and buy you some juice okay, cos we've really ran out of juice this morning didn't he? oh yeah i got all your bits then , he hasn't had hardly had anything to drink again today he doesn't seem to drink, he eats all his food, oh he ate that pudding no problem oh did he? yeah he loved it and then they tell you just cover it, the taste of the food some time yeah has you eaten your larna yeah have you seen this how he loves me? i tell you what you wait until he gets teeth and, and he does bite you. the other day he, he grabbed my nose, he had my nose charming in his mouth, he bite and mummy nearly went through the roof mummy i want another one oh better take that biscuit tin away before they eat the lot, got that lid, get that and put, have one more and get it in the kitchen charlotte you yeah one more and that's enough yeah ooh, ah, what she doing? what is she doing? and you want the bib and the spoon never mind the, never mind the get off the table another one like me mum i don't want one more right would you take them to the kitchen for me please because i'm putting these bits away can i give you a hand there larna still no you're alright, no you're alright, it's to the truth there's nothing, who put that bag in there, can't put it in there, put it right, i'll put it in, in a minute ah do you think you're gonna be up to me next week or not? erm i find out this afternoon when i phone in my hours oh yeah, well you know, just let me know anyway yeah, i'll call you after definitely yeah i just have to let you know right i think all, no bottles out the fridge and that's it what he hasn't had a single bottle today? no, not even, that's all the are you a tired baby, did you want to go to sleep? you go home and go to sleep he's only been up since quarter to three you go home and kip so i thought you'll probably give him a bottle when you got here anyway, so i was going to give him one, it all depends when he got up and i thought you'll probably give him one so i didn't yeah, but i mean he was so happy playing yeah, he'll probably forget i doubt it though would you know where they think it is larna? your what? yeah because yeah it could be that you only had these two bags didn't we? erm wouldn't have the i mean it could be that, yeah you've got a drink in there it's been in this week oh you want your coat when did they do it? it must of been about tuesday, it must of been first day oh you've got stuck yeah oh it might be there but then they, they do erm, they do say as they get older they get er fed up with milk and they eat and you know the, they do sometimes do sometimes so it's funny they've never been a great juice freak really he didn't drink a lot of it erm, what's, oh, and yet he hates water does he? yeah, he can't stand the water now that's yours, now i've lost me ah it's probably in me bag, yeah don't worry about it, it's probably in a bag, let mummy oh yes there it is, come to mummy do you want it on him want mummy's hat mum if you, he can have a bit of me milk if you like when you, that bit yeah no, my own milk go and get some juice for the boy, go and get some juice for the boy i'll go and wash this and put it onto his coat you didn't want to eat that love no what his name erm no alex name, there he is you know that, that juice, that's it alex erm, alex i'm talking to you and vicky got a new bed what's the matter? vicky got a new bed vicky got a new bed i know i saw it this morning it's really smart isn't it? how could you, you live far, far away what do you say? excuse me or pardon you didn't see it this morning, well, i mean when you come over yeah, well when i got it out the car but, just wash that down erm what was i going, i was going to tell you something yeah you was weren't you till they interrupting oh that juice, you know when erm they're six weeks old and you get the bounty packs? yeah still had that, i ran out of his usual juice this morning, i went oh i can't believe it and i keep these little packets in obscure little places because then i remember about them one day in case i run out you won't because i used to be they're quite handy i'll smack you by hand is all gooey now it is? baby, baby call you b b then won't we? yeah, watch him, leave things there, he hasn't had a dirty nappy today so you can't climb there, alex has got your mum, ah pick me up there er see one of these bibs this morning no i'm not picking you up i'm cleaning kieran's face carefully anthony, careful cos alex's got to live in there erm, if it is the one this morning, i can understand why he hasn't done one today oh, it was enormous and we all, we always get our drink of milk do you, that's good for you isn't it? yeah i know, but he don't climb on that do you, do you buy milk? yes i do, jordan drinks milk mum yeah good boy, where's do do? he has full fat milk, full cream milk, full fat milk full cream milk full cream milk it's only half calorie stuff innit? the one that ain't got full this is only pasteurized, erm oh what i drink we don't have any oh i don't have milk anyway we have the one that's the thickest and kieran don't do that darling oh okay now, it's okay oh, he, he always starts to whinge when i lay him down to do his coat up, he don't like the latest thing is putting his wrist on, anything he's gotta get his arms through oh let's go right i'll speak to you again next week it's friday again tomorrow ah it goes really quick though doesn't it? what's wrong take care he might have a bottle when he get him home yeah say the way he was looking at her milk just then, you can have a bottle when you get home are you? get excited yeah, at home, you erm put that button in your pocket? erm i did, let me just check it right could of fallen out look at the state of my glasses oh dear they need cleaning don't they? there's er oh kieran yeah got that i've had up to five floating around the house before and then we can't find one, no and then two days that's where they all are, i've got them bye, see you all tomorrow alex, alex eh got it alex, alex i've got it no i think it's a shame about, it doesn't really matter, mm i'm not quite sure alex i don't know what i bet you have forgotten your keys no they're in my pocket mummy mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy oh thank you, take care, yeah i can't imagine surprising what you can get over the weekend yeah, we should have to put you on the book put stranger down okay then, see you tomorrow yeah, alright then, same time, bye kieran see you later, bye mummy charlotte come on, come and watch cartoons do it mum charlotte i'm shutting the door it's cold come on right, we want channel eight no t v s well after this now, right can i take my jumper off? i wouldn't, it's not very warm i do you put, you gonna put some of these toys away now please? ah, ah, no, no oh we put on ma, mum, ma mummy, mummy i like that get me some milk what about your manners, please and thank you? please and thank you yes i will, hold on i didn't have to say please and thank you for my milk cos i pour straight on my dinner, didn't i? didn't i? hold on no, yes are you gonna away? yeah, just leave that now, you want a drop of milk now do you anthony? er hold on mummy, mummy, mummy here are alright, listen, come on, right let's have all these toys tidied up, before the cartoons start come on, alright, you're alright, that's not what we do with toy boxes is it? that's how accidents happen no, this is what we're going to do, we're going to tidy them all up now quietly don't throw them at the windows. careful, that's it, right jump straight in the car then, cos it's open and it'll be warm i get the hang on let me open the doors last one open doors right you get in there charlotte can you get in here and put your seat belt on? please maybe, maybe no you got to sit up here in the car seat love, charlotte get in or you'll be late oh, one, two, three in, oh that's a good boy in the morning you got hiccoughs? e i e i we right are we in charlotte? no can you put your belt on? no do you want me to do it? mm yeah, okay do it there we go, that's you done, and you young man, cor all strapped in? oh you know yeah well i'll put my seat belt on in a minute right off we go off we go, can you hold that letter? why? well i just wanna stop to post it i wanna go to play group we are going to play group, but we've gotta drive right past the letter box why, cos it's on the way mummy me my pussy cat on shoulder oh you brought your pussy cat did you, didn't you bring your mickey mouses? no brought a out alright no he's half, half of er, all his tail has gone half his tail's gone? no all of his tails has gone, he's broken his tail oh dear, did someone pull it out then? yeah, maybe oh never mind pull it out and take it out how can someone pull it mummy? yeah , oh it was probably an accident how can it be pulled out it was up there for ages never mind, don't worry about it right what do you think you're gonna do at play school today then, does anybody know? not me me what do you normally do on a friday? oh i don't know playdoh playdoh bricks do you, that should be fun well you're gonna have plenty to do then aren't you? yes okay, i'll just jump out and post this letter sticklebricks and erm some engine bricks, and also some oh that's handy, thank you why didn't you post it in the letter box? well because the postman had come to empty the letter box, right, so there was no point in mummy putting her letter in cos he'd of just taken it out again where you put it? why does the dustman have to take it away? no not the dustman, the postman why does the postman have to take all the letters away? why? well he takes them to the post office yeah then the post office sorts them out yeah and gives them to different postmen to take to different houses yeah yeah and that's how we all get our letters. you know mummy gets letters in the morning, mummy and daddy yeah yeah , no i do it up well it, now the postman takes it to where it's got to be sorted and they will post it to whoever it has to go to. yeah, but what about your money they might send it back to you i didn't send any money, you never send money through the post charlotte why? cos somebody might take it wasn't money i sent anyway, just an order form why? there's pauline and aaron, shall we go and see them? yeah, stop right where they are no i can't just stop right in the middle of the road, i have to park darling, there we go, ooh right next to this car, there's ian over there right right one, two out you come aaron charlotte don't just run off and get on the path aaron i'm here morning yeah alright? yeah, you yeah she always is, it's this one that's not you must be joking charlotte out the way, don't be so impatient, oh god, thanks very much right, hang your coat up, hang your coat up, i'll hang your coat up give us your coat right come on she took him in oh right, i wondered where he was hiya paul alright? thanks alright, yeah you, yeah what? come on, ah? anthony smile, oh it's a good job we unzipped it then have you got a kiss for me then bye i see you later okay, good girl he mustn't have it today he mustn't have it, oh anthony she said you can't have your smile today you know why? no because it suppose to be a present it's a present don't tell him ooh, it's a surprise present why what you doing? ah, eh, i'm going into town, you going into town or erm, no, but i come in for if you want you know what your daughter started yesterday you know? what? all these pots, weren't it? oh some of the kids come up and said oh that's not my one hang on a minute that's not mine either, and all then that's not my pots i tell you what when they do something they do not forget the colour aren't they funny when they look, we didn't look at the yoghurt pots did we? no went no, no, it's not, it's not peach melba, right down to the last detail oh no you know what we forget my play school bag your play school bag? yes pity you didn't lose your voice at home today charlotte is there i don't know what she's on about, you tell me kim oh i haven't even gone yet i'm jumping like a jelly baby yeah you jump right i'll give him a kiss and you i might get a smile out of him listen you told me you ain't gonna cry this morning, put it this way you won't be going to the sweet shop will we? come on, come on, i'll see you later oh see you later, i'll see you later, oh you want a kiss? see you later now you stop crying oh mum, mum, i wanna go i'll be back in a little while i miss you, i miss you ah i don't know who've you got today just kieran? oh no i've got thingy at erm eleven eleven well half ten, quarter to eleven yeah er what i don't know about next week yet, she'll let me know yeah i've only got to go to the bank and got to pay something for gary, i've got to pay in a cheque for gary again cos he's ever so low again this year, this week, this month yeah, i'll just move that chair from out the front yeah i'm not putting it in where you put it before though cos i had a hell of a job did you? i just erm put it on top yeah, yeah, it makes it easier that way. sian was saying there's a coffee morning on today yeah, but i couldn't of gone anyway, cos i had too many kids what time's that on till? erm i don't know i haven't been to them for ages now yeah because er i can't really do much with my two anyway yeah so did you get your wardrobes done? measured up got any quotes? last one today twelve, i've got the last one coming today have you? i've got erm, we've had one through from erm erm came round on wednesday morning because we had wednesday morning, one should be coming via the post today, we phoned up yesterday oh yeah, yeah and he's sending it first post, it should be through today, if not tomorrow morning, erm oh dear the other one gave us a quote for three hundred and eighty eight oh that's not bad then which was good, but gary's suspicious at that price three hundred and eighty eight? yeah what's that to do? comparing it , comparing it with erm one thousand, two hundred, he's, he says it's rather suspicious what is that for the actual three hund just, just the actual erm sliding mirror wardrobes just the doors no fitting or anything? yeah it's for the fittings and everything, erm and i've had prices like one thousand two hundred, eighteen hundred, and this bloke you know, says three hundred and eighty eight oh and gary's rather suspicious at that price, we, we had a builder that came round he, he wanted four hundred and twenty yes and that was with the doors from texas and he thought oh no you know yeah we'd rather get it done properly, erm, but erm, this that came yesterday morning, he reckons it, that he can do the whole of the bedroom, look there's been an accident, i've got to tell you oh good they've gone right over that bank, right over that bank, right over there, it's bounced over it's speeding i expect yeah to get that far erm and they can do the wardrobes and the fitment erm and wardrobes either side erm for eighteen hundred oh which is the price we were looking at, it's not too cheap and it's not too expensive yeah cos gary sort of said we should set prices that are too low maybe they just, he just done it so cheap because of the recession i mean yeah you can get almost anything done at the moment yeah can't you? so we'll wait and see well was it all private people then we'll see what price they give or companies? no it's all companies what even this three hundred and eighty eight? yeah, that's well you can always check it out yeah make sure it is a genuine it, the, the, he's come from the company and he's not doing it privately or something you see the thing is, i said, gary said to me he said did you ask them about the over bed erm units and that and i said yeah, i said he wanted to, he, he said he could do the over bed unit for eighteen hundred plus the wardrobes for three eighty eight yeah well this people i mean with, with, that i mean that really is more or less the same amount as the other companies have said for er more or less the whole lot, so why the wardrobes are so cheap and yet the, the bed surrounding is so expensive, we don't know mm whereas people they reckon that they can do it, they can do the whole lot for eighteen hundred yeah , oh strange isn't it? yeah , it's er, it's er cheap for the wardrobes, but expensive for the over bed unit, i mean gary said well at that price he said the over bed unit we might as well get out of a catalogue. well, yeah, talking of catalogues actually you might know, my two want a beanbag right? yeah they've got one in argos but the colours are disgusting and it's twenty pound, you see i went and brought one for boo boo, that one from argos yeah , yeah and they absconded it, and the dog hasn't a hope in hell and also the ones you get for the kids, when you sit in them they sit up like little chairs don't they? yeah whereas the dog's one yeah lie down on lie down on and i haven't got them in my club book, any ideas? erm, argos, index, or argos has only got the one which is disgusting is this for the dog? no this is for the kids, i've got the dog, i've got the dog's, but the dog ain't got it market, saturday market yeah they do, they do er a carpet stall and they also do erm on the same stall with a carpet, they do erm, duvets mm pillows, and they do beanbags as well do they not do it on a thursday? no, i've never seen them there on a thursday no saturday is the only time i've seen them there i just wondered cos argos wanted twenty pound and nineteen ninety nine yeah, yeah i think they want twelve, twelve ninety nine or something off the market yeah it's been ages since well, since i looked, but i'm sure it's something like that. yeah, but i also got a leaflet for refills as well oh that's what i need some more of those for his beanbag yeah that's what it's for the dog's bean bag yeah so yeah i've got the address at home if you want it right now, put a bit of lipstick on do you wanna grab my catalogue do you when we get back to my place? why is there anything in there? well you said you wanted to have a look at the er quilt covers? oh no, i'm gonna leave that for a bit are you? yeah, due to lack of funds twenty p an hour innit? oh, where's my bag then? i've got it here oh god i thought i'd lost it for a minute i though while i was there i might as well grab it erm is it twenty p for an hour or thirty p? what's the time? half past nine, half past ten twenty five past nine i normally, let, well, if i put an hour and a half in cos if we're a bit late yeah five or ten minutes late, it's cheaper for me to put ten p in than to pay twelve pound ticket yeah actually it's twenty pound yeah right, i'll just nip over and get it, cos i haven't locked up yet maybe i won't i haven't got ten p, i've only got two pennies, just have to make sure back you want ten p? well just in case we're not as you came down town for my sake really alright then, i'll accept, i won't be a minute yeah she's going to look after them for a little while oh yeah so well that's right, yeah, in fact i said to her i was expecting a phone call the other morning to say that yeah her, her mum was having him, but she had a, her mum had a few things to do, so yeah oh, you ain't heard no more about applying for the hospital for a job yet then? no, they still haven't advertised it yet oh ain't they? i thought they might of got on and done that well that's what i thought because erm ann's leaving in erm the end of this month mm it's only next week still gonna apply though, ha oh yeah, doesn't hurt does it, you've got nothing to lose yeah but i shall go for it but if any other jobs come up at the hospital i'll apply for them yeah, do you wanna go in here? ah, let's get some money first oh yeah, let's go in there while it's empty yeah no, i've been waiting for them to get them cards in i ordered a couple of those cards with the lights at the top for kieran to take home oh yeah, it's been since i've bleeding asked for them they haven't been in, that was two weeks ago yeah, i know we went in there last week, cos they had these cards, they got those things with six bugs on them, they're really ugly looking things, aaron wanted them, he hasn't half been playing some tricks on gary take them down in front of gary and that gary's aagh pretends he's got, you know he's frightened yeah, yeah and he thinks it's hilarious i do this all the time, i can't be bothered to take my gloves off it takes you half an hour to get your card out put these on while your hands are warm yeah you hold that, oh come on, he normally puts them on straight away er aaron can put his other gloves on, but with those ones they seemed to take twice as long to put on these are supposed to grow with your hands, i'll tell you what they didn't grow much with anthony's no no they didn't with aaron's, they haven't done with them, they're still wearing them, but hold your hand out, er you used to use er pampers nappies didn't you? yeah i bet you didn't know, like i didn't know they were tested on animals no i didn't the gels they put in them yeah to stop the wetness seeping through and that the gel, what they do is they shave rabbits, and rub it into their skin, the rashes and that and a couple of rabbits have died from it when they first started testing the stuff bloody hell yeah and i was watching it on this morning and what it is it's because most things you've got in your kitchen like myself are all tested on animals and they don't label it ha i couldn't believe it, i was horrified yeah i thought my god i use pampers all the time the first one is why label make now yeah cos, cos you know for a fact it's not it's not animal tested yeah neither is that other book that i run that whatever yeah pronounceable, i've never got the name right but i couldn't believe it though and they, this woman went under cover into this place and the state of these animals yeah these rabbits were by the head and all this stuff was put on their eyes to test it god you know? yeah it was really horrible right i've got to go into superdrug, i've got to get some more hairspray okey dokey, oh they've got those in again, mind you i haven't filled up what i've got yet, so yeah do you want to have a look up round here? see if they yeah, they haven't got any video cases, they had some video cases the other day and i forgot to get some now they ain't got none no i'm gonna put all of aerial's tapes, get her normal tapes yeah erm, in, into cases mm, might get one of them another day mm my one's falling to pieces, always come in handy it's brilliant, right what else do i want polish ah i tablecloth please no i won't go round there i can't be bothered that's all pretty empty that lot innit? yeah i know it's boring trev but what do you want me to do, done some work actually, you ain't gonna do some work er they're with the what? he knows yeah oh they're different to the ones he's got, he's got those ones, i'll get him those ones that's nice mm, yeah, ideal for putting in a picture for christmas well i think nothing for me today one pound please what's that? oh yeah they just yeah wipe them clean i've got some gardening gloves at home, i haven't had the chance to use them yet, the weather's been so bad yeah, i went out yesterday morning and cleared up the dogs mess i can't do mine with little one, i got like i'll yeah probably do mine tomorrow morning hello janet hiya alright? yes so i'll probably do it yeah like, i might not do it, i see how i feel oh how was, how was your leggings you got from here? really nice, ever so comfortable, yeah i was really pleased i got them yeah so i got them, me mum got me some black ones, but they're like, they come right down to the ankles yeah so they're nice, i've kept them, so i've got a black and i've got a khaki pair yeah erm and i've sent off for some loose fitting ones yeah that were eight ninety nine a pair and five ninety nine for a matching top yeah erm, that's about it really in here? oh yeah they haven't got many cards in here lately you know no i wanted one for er saying granddad one from the kids and i couldn't get a decent one yeah when i came in the other day, i might have a look now actually get some chewitts for the kids go on looking something for myself actually i can't see what i want why don't you get a no no, i won't, no i just get these for the kids, i might just be tempted to go in there and have a look though, did you eat all your others? no, we haven't eaten them all yet, still got half a box open hiding away from gary i got them out and me and tony, well tony didn't eat many, i sat there and pigged the lot yeah i doubt if they have any better cards in now, cos all they had was that yeah for granddad, well i can't get that from the kids and that's it, that was to my dad so i got him that one in the end yeah i went over to the market, cos i came in yesterday erm, didn't like that one, i'm not into dogs, and i went into the market they didn't have nothing either no i mean, i want something no that's yeah i'll have to go elsewhere and get it mother's day soon isn't it? it is oh my god mm, when's shrove sunday that's soon an all innit? pancake day er, oh is it? i shall do some pancakes this year, cos the kids are old enough now yeah to decide whether they like them or not oh aaron loves them oh i got yorkshire puddings oh yeah cos erm, they er, i thought well i'd get them then tony cos he said to me sunday he said where's the yorkshire pud then? i said well it's not worth making all that mixture just for you oh you buy a mix? yes that i did i bought a mix yeah, yeah but for us lot it made four nice medium size ones yeah that's right and then i never ate all mine, and the kids never ate all theirs, so i thought well i get the frozen ones and just get one out each time for tony stick it in the oven half hour before. oh that's what i was going to look at the brushes what? hair brushes, i want, i want one of these something that's not too hard i've got a, er comb, i've got one of those that i use for anthony at the moment and why brush? why not a comb? cos his hair's not thick enough for a comb yeah true see what i want anthony's hair is quite thick cos really, something like that, but only a half one you want a small one don't you? yeah that's one thing i've got, i've got my denman i've got that one what about that grey one up the end there or is that too big? yeah, you see i've got, again it's erm, complete handle on that one one of them one's, i want a half one like this with just this with soft bristles on yeah yeah too big ain't they? yeah or they're the right size but they've got the hard bristles yes that's right but i like, i ask the brushes i tell you what have you where was it i saw it now? woolworth's they've got some fantastic easter eggs, no not woolworth's robert cray, they've got a massive great big kinder egg easter egg in there yeah really pretty it is, i mean it's four ninety five yeah my two both dart for them when we went in there yeah i thought oh, see i was gonna get a present for easter, but they've got so much there's yeah nothing they really need that's right they've probably got a few over here erm i'll probably get erm another video thanks lovely thank you me hands are alright now, they've warmed up yeah i'll go over this way, let's have a look in chemist for that comb yeah they have a lot more choice don't they? yeah , brush i should say, can pop up, oh midland we can do on the way back, we can go first though yeah okey dokey, i keep looking at that clock there but it's wrong innit? i know ha oh dixon's i've got to pop into dixon's, they've got a p c advertised yeah in the computers, on the erm telly mm gary wants me to find out a bit more about it cos he wants a new one, another, well he wants a new one, cos we done a deal, get my bed, if we get the bedroom done mm he'll buy a p c, i said okay fair enough i don't care, i'll get my bedroom done what computer he's got? he's got an amstrad, but it's not a coloured one oh right why, is tony after one? well no, we wanted to get one for charlotte, but erm, i don't think they'll use them oh no this one's, you know it's a proper, proper video oh yeah yeah that's yeah what they use up the school a proper computers, the screens and printouts and mouses and yeah i went up the school and had a look at them yeah i was talking to a lady about them yeah but i've got to discuss it with tony first erm you see that's what you want, but they're too hard mm, even they're quite prickly yeah they're not too bad yeah trouble is though as you say he's not got a lot of hair really has he? no it's straight forward onto his scalp i know what you look, i know what sort you're looking for though yeah and it's what i'm looking for let's have a look and it's three ninety nine bloody hell and it's likely to last is it as soft as what you think though for him? yeah, erm how do you work it? that's pretty it is isn't it? mind you it might be a bit uncomfortable on the head yeah or you can use it as a tie round mhm, what about having, that's a bit harder yes, same as the denman oh, get it out it's not too bad is it? no probably about the softest mm no i think that's harder than that yes no that's there you are, now you can't get softer than that it's nifty innit? look at this it might be three ninety nine, but i'll get it oh we, cos me and gary we've got a brush each and he wants one, see i like that, but i think that, that is a bit big and it's dearer yeah no kieran, don't pull any of them off you'd think it'd be cheaper if it was smaller wouldn't you? yeah yeah hold on just looking at something right, three little ducks a load of different hair things in here ain't there? mm very expensive in there though isn't it? yeah a lot of things i'll go into boots and find something cheap well now cos places like superdrug and, and boots and that aren't er, i mean that's just basically a chemist that innit? that's right yeah so it should have everything, i still think that it's a bit expensive though yeah what about that ferguson factory closing down then? yeah when they gave out i thought that was really sad with all those redundancies a couple of months ago, i thought that'll be it, i mean i've been there fifty percent off marked red tickets that's right i'm reading all these money things off yeah well i know, but it was sad because in gosport that was what keep most of them going, i mean like they said none of them have never been on the dole before, they've all been there since they've left school, there was a couple there yeah and they'd both been there thirty years since they've left school yeah and now they just don't know what to do, there's no jobs, there's no nothing no and they said that some of them were thinking of moving, but and they also reckon that the gosport and portsmouth are the worst off than anywhere else in this country yeah it's very sad, but, what can you do? that's why alex has had to go back to london yeah, i know she was telling me, there she is a highly qualified secretary and she's, and she's and used to bloody did you know she's a qualified magician as well? no no, she only told me that the other day yeah she is yeah so that's two jobs she's qualified for and she can't get jobs in either ridiculous, erm twenty bensons please one ninety four then please i think i'm gonna get a cadbury's twirl while i'm here i will, i'll get all this change out of my pocket let's get rid of this two, four, five, right, there's twenty five there for one of those, thanks yeah she's a qualified magician as well yeah you know, she was saying there's a girl at work and she's a top qualified chef mm and she's, all she can do is what alex's doing yeah just general cooking and cleaning maybe she'll apply at the hospital then if she's a qualified cook, they're in and out of there like, like nobody's business the cooks, they can't, well they don't stay long why's that? they don't get paid that much ah, that's it innit? yeah the trouble on, the trouble is with a recession on it's an advantage of, oh they've closed down yeah that didn't last long did it? they couldn't afford the mortgage, erm the erm the lease the lease yeah, erm you know my mate lorraine, her sister used to work in there part time and it was on a friday you got your book, i've got mine it was on a friday, it was her day off, she got called in at about three o'clock and they told her then, it was two weeks ago now i didn't notice yesterday, mind you i didn't walk past, yes i did, i must of walked past it yeah, cos er lorraine told me last, what lorraine works every two weeks, what she's on this weekend, so erm, so it's two weeks ago she told bloody hell i tell you as i walked past there on friday, she said yeah she said we were still open then, they closed it that night, ridiculous it's terrible innit? yeah i mean years ago i can remember coming into town and seeing that furniture shop filled with people walking around, every time i go past it now it is empty yeah which is why i think a lot of things, places should be able to accommodate for shop owners and reduce their leases while this recession's on yeah it's so unfair i won't half be surprised if they get in this time, i really will the trouble is, us council owners will be worse off under the labour council well i so you can't win that's right i know, but what can you do? i mean the way, it, it's happened, i don't think john major stands much hope basically yeah i hate all this politic business any road, but i know let's face it, whoever gets in, someone's gonna lose out yeah i was quite shocked at that er thing about the fox hunting i was pleased what about it? for my sister's sake oh what they didn't ban it? mm, yeah i'll go in these doors, i wasn't surprised, i didn't think they would, but as this guy said afterwards he said whether you do it now or later he said, within the next five years it's gonna be banned so i think it still will be banned in the end yeah i do at the moment, sympathize, that's a nice colour it is, innit? i didn't but now i sympathize it's not bad material either no , that's nice innit? that's good just right for around indoors, yes that one's nice to mm i mean if they'd of banned it, there'd of been a lot more people out of work, which is yeah probably part of the reason why they didn't for the time being that's right i like those jumpers too yeah oh they've got rid of those white ones sweat shirt oh no they're not they've shoved them down there are they? yeah nine to ten years, oh a bit big for charlotte oh there paul, they've got some white ones oh yeah, oh i don't like that material, i'd rather get them them, this material oh you're a fussy faggot i know what do you expect for two ninety nine but they , they sort of itch, whereas this stuff doesn't oh see it's really soft feel that er actually i quite like the lace up ones anyway yeah they're three ninety nine though aren't they? yeah yeah well nothing's much changed really mm oh have you seen those knickerbockers over there? eh? knickerbockers, for babies oh yeah they're sweet aren't they? mhm oh they, they, oh yeah so they are look at these ones? there's a, as i'm speeding them round here, oh one nine, nine, seven, that's charlie's size as well yeah aaron's a seven are they supposed to be like that then, different at the front? it's just the way the pattern is yeah, ah, i like the new pink ones, and that's for boys yeah that'll be just right for on holiday won't they? yeah, get two different colours yeah, but the thing is right they're sevens and they're gonna be too small for them by the time holiday gets round say september mm that's the trouble well aaron's a six and they're seven so i'm safe to getting aaron a seven i'm safe to getting mine sevens yeah yeah there's erm i think that's seven is it? no it's an eight mind you when the warmer weather gets here they can wear them anyway oh yeah i don't know which ones i prefer the purple or the pink one of each, then she's always got another pair, cos i don't, is that blue? mm yeah i'm not keen on the blue no have one of each yeah, they've got these no i don't like that yeah, it clashes yeah oh i like those ones mm thirty seven, ha, don't get red no i don't like red, i'd get him black black and blue? yeah, yeah so they won't, not, well they won't get so dirty, again with these you can just stick them in the wash what, if they ain't got the size you can't seven i think we've gone through all the sevens in the blacks ain't you? it's only a five nine, they're nines there, have you got a watch on? yeah oh good ah hang on er, three pairs there, seven, six and an eight, right there's two blacks in sevens here, well i'll just have a pair of each, i've only got a fiver in me purse just wondering whether to get black or blue though? mm the mauve's quite nice aren't they? what do you reckon? i don't know, they look a bit rough on the front to me they do mm don't they? i'll just find a seven in the blue print haven't we got any then? hang on they're alright on the front, want another seven don't you for aaron? yeah cos the black's likely to go grey, whereas the blues don't look so bad no when they go oh they've got socks there to go with them mm, yeah i'm not too worried about her socks though but i say i'm gonna have plenty of marks and sparks' vouchers yeah seven? i've got a seven here oh and the white are nice, but they just get dirty too quick yeah i don't know whether to get aaron one or not, he's got enough at home, he's got enough from last year what have my two got? i believe i can always pop in town tomorrow i was wondering actually i think i might wait until that dress comes through, i'll try we can always ask to put them away for a week yeah that's what i might do why? well then, if, we can put them away for a week actually, actually wanted new trainers and they've got them there yeah they have ain't they? he has been nagging me actually since i threw his others, he threw his others away that when some more came in, but these are alright for girls ain't they? six, they're nice, boy's nine yeah no i'm gonna leave it cos i can't make me mind up i think i'll just walk away and leave it where else did you wanna go? erm i've got to go into erm what's the time then? ten right, we'll scan there and i want to have a look at the computers in there as well yeah okay, is there, i don't mind getting them shoes, but the thing is with, not knowing what the weather's doing yeah you know and it, they don't need them, say they're both in their ordinary shoes at the moment yeah i've also got to be careful because they've got size eights upstairs as well that robert got them yeah and it, oh dixon's yeah dixon's it's over there innit? going that way and er so you've already booked your holiday time up the hospital then or not? not done it yet not done it yet no i'm not bothered about going on holiday, i suppose i'm all worked up about getting bedroom sorted, ha mm, i said to tony if we can't afford to go i said don't worry about it, we might just go back down to where we went last year for a week because, it's like i was saying to joanne this morning, that this year they won't, they're not gonna worry whether they don't go on holiday but next year when charlotte's at school and got all her school mates saying oh where did you go and yeah you know what it's like. that's right ah, now that's the sort, they use the old b b c ones up the school and one's manufactured by acorn do you need any help there at all? erm yeah you got on, on the advert on the television you've got a p c, which one is it? you haven't seen it obviously i've seen the advert it's embarrassing it's probably either the five, oh dear, i don't know actually, we actually do several p cs in the yes i know because we're only a small branch, we only carry like one or two maybe mm at the most, erm is it i b m or no it's an amstrad an amstrad, is it five o or five two eight six? i can't remember, that's what i've come in to find out it could be the five two eight there's a five two eighty sixty two which is, about two hundred pounds, which is like a better machine yeah erm which we do, which we haven't got in stock at the moment, but we can always get hold of right, well i think the best thing to do is to leave it until i see the advert again it's so just enquiring on the catalogue interest, we've only got that one leaflets, brochure? yeah, yeah, is it the games pack one? no it wouldn't be the games pack, it'd be after that one yeah, so erm microsoft works game pack erm see do that, so many in the range now these are like our, our highlighted deal ones you see mm i think i'm better off leaving it i think erm see there's five five eight six which is this one, it's forty hard drive the basingstoke's a larger branch aren't they? yeah they, they, they have a business centre as well you see, erm right we can always get hold of the stuff here, save you lugging it around because they come in big boxes and that yeah, yeah it's not a problem so if you just want to have a look round up there and sort of come here yeah we've got relations in basingstoke, so yeah we can have a look down there tomorrow yeah, we can always get hold of them it's just that we don't carry them, we're a small branch you see right we've not got a big room no so okay then unfortunately, but, i, i would give you one of these, but i can't even give you one of these but you haven't got one no, they only send us about three from the i believe they should be out in the like the national press and things like that yeah i'd imagine because they usually put it in yeah things like the magazines the colour supplements and things like that right but yeah the basingstoke branch is the business centre and their business centre is like the size of this shop so it's right and they've got a lot more and they would have them up and running as well yeah so you could compare different ones and things like that right i shall have to leave gary in there for half an hour then just drop him off and go to a canteen yeah but yeah sorry, we can always get hold of it, it's just we don't carry them here right but as far as the search thing and stuff like that it's the same engineers we buy it from bensons yeah they can buy it from they just ring a telephone number okay then alright alright? thanks thanks a lot, sorry about that that's okay never mind, i knew it was gonna be a waste of time you just thought you'd ask still perhaps we will get to basingstoke this week didn't last didn't you go last week? no why? well i got home, i got everything all sorted out, gary even left a message on the answerphone saying that he'd be home round about half past two and that mm and erm, ha, got home, didn't wanna go out, there was me i got changed, i put on those new leggings i was all in black i thought i looked rather nice, you know, and gary said what you all dressed up for? i said oh we're going out aren't we? oh i don't wanna go now so you had a row no we didn't have a row he just went a sleep me aar , me and aaron had enough, we went for a walk down the lake we only went out for forty minutes, we were surprised how long we'd been gone ha erm, i had, he only had his wellies on and his leggings puddles were that deep, you know, puddles were that deep i said to him you're not going in the puddle, he said yeah i am, no you're not, yeah i am, he did he did so oh well once he'd gone in there i, i let him get on with it yeah and erm i just stuck him in the bath when we got home it's annoying that though innit? especially if you got ready to go out yeah you see, like, i mean i started staying at home on saturdays and, i don't do nothing, if tony comes home and says he wants to go out i get it ready then otherwise i just plan on staying home yeah oh i'm not gonna go all to hassle getting organized and he comes home and says he don't want to go out that's right so i don't do it now till yeah he comes home, then it's up to him. yeah children's coming about eleven again yeah, well she comes down about twenty to now and has a natter yeah erm, have a talk and a laugh and she just stops for a coffee after yeah or a talk, well she doesn't have to rush home cos there's no one there like yes, that's right you know i'm gonna take the kids to see snow white at the weekend yeah up basingstoke cinema with me mum what tomorrow? no probably sunday yeah could erm i might give you a ring later and say can you have aaron mm gary's gonna find out, he's got yeah chance of overtime so i said well if you can get it, get it and i'll yeah drop aaron off in the morning yeah, no it wouldn't be tomorrow because i think my mum's working so yeah it doesn't say open that, and i pull the others no i know anything else you need to do? what's the time? ten, ten past time you wanna browse round peacock's yeah or anywhere else while were here? erm woolworth's, let's go and have a look in woolworth's yeah let's have a look in woolworth's, i haven't been in there for ages, see what easter eggs they've got yeah erm, oh cut through over there i suppose i was thinking the other day when i worked out that money for saturday is it, it came to something like two pound eighty when you had jordan yeah and like six pound something when i, and six pound forty when i had eran, so i thought if we call it six pounds for a saturday, when you have jordan i'll give you three pound right is that alright? yep cos i thought if we round it off both ways yeah you know that, a little bit cheaper on your end and a bit more i give you oh what's this stand outside the shop and talk day, carry on over there, so are you happy with that? yeah i don't want you not to be happy with it yeah you know, say well it's all money innit? well, yeah, but i don't want you to sort of like as long as you get paid in the end oh yeah, i just didn't want you sort of be short yeah at the weekend or something no you know, erm er no cos i pay my cheque in yeah, alright then cos it's just three pound for last week then yeah and six pound fifty then week cos i won't, you won't have them on monday but if she keeps working it'll be most mondays anyway yeah so all the time i've got him yeah now, i don't know if they've got them ones in here, what they got in here i wonder if my husband will remember to get me one this year? that'd be a first i can tell you, oh that's a good one innit? mm, paying for the wrapping though oh it's only ninety nine p that one though innit? oh is it? yeah oh yeah ninety nine p, no, it's a chocolate easter egg that's all you get yeah easter egg then just, like you say mainly the packing i suppose, oh they've got some more over here, ah these are my kind, oh they're not bad are they? little ones no eighty nine p i like the cup ones, only what i, what they don't do which i think is silly mm as most easter eggs go to kids, they put them in a breakable cup, while they don't put them in a plastic one or a melamine one what's that for? yeah came out, last night yeah garage as well and the car didn't he look granddad yeah well they said it was rules and regulations yeah, but but they told mum not to worry shut up look granddad tut, oh hello dave i want my dinner come on then what we having for dinner? well i got anthony a piece and butter right do you want some lunch in it ant? that what? just butter? see you later folks yeah see you later dave bye, bye why did you come over then? cos i wanted to see your dad here you go you don't mind do you? what was snow white like oh and the seven wolves? well, too bad was, was it good? me undo it go on then yes i'm four years old i know you are and i go to school and if you keep on you won't see five i be to the i get five? mummy ma, ma bye bye my little girl bye bye happy see you later bye bye larna see you see i kissed your mum no see you later dave ta ta right, what else do you want to eat darlings? i want some cheese you want a piece of cheese? yeah oh i think you'd better let mummy do that er i want some cheese well the thing is if i don't do it, there's not gonna be enough there for both of you, if you hack it up darling, anyway i need to use a sharp knife mum ah, don't put it on the on there mum can i get some luncheon meat? yeah mummy i want a big bit i'm gonna yeah, you both got a big bit there and that gets rid of that then, right who want's erm some tomato sauce? eh we got do you want a bit tomato sauce ant? erm, yeah mum charlotte do you want a bit of tomato sauce? yeah, on my, on my bread, so i wanna spread it, mum i only want one piece of lunch meat get it off yeah i don't mind as long as you eat what you've got that's all i need the board, where's my knife? oh what you want your little knife? yes i want to spread my sauce over and me knife and yours yeah and now i've got my gear and my i never got my i don't, i don't need my fork or any no i, i have my fork too mummy put it on, mummy me bear on? no it's sunday today love not on sunday not on nothing, they're watching a film in there darling, so we're gonna sit out here okay? have some dinner yeah, mummy's going to do the bingo in a minute in the dinner dinner the you've got the copy of how to do that number one well i wanna do this bingo first cos granddad's mama got a lot of cards and it takes me a long time to do it cut my bread up you want it cut in half? what cut in half so you can make a sandwich? yeah there you go, that's good innit? mum look i've put tomato sauce over well done mum there i am one luncheon meat sandwich, oh that's gonna be nice no no yeah there that's gonna stick, it, there that's gonna just about do it, there, well that's going to stick it like that, so that'll stay sticky mum i don't want a bear on, mummy bear on tomorrow no it's not on now till next week oh bear on next week, he on a big, big big and he's a nice row, row, row a boat gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, just uh, uh, uh when my night got him are you singing mate? mum, i'm making such a big sandwich can you cut it up? it's alright as long as you eat it bye, bye i can't do it, done it now, and a little bit and there ah are you gonna eat that? yes he will in a minute when he's finished making it, won't you anthony? have you finished making it yet have you? right, would you two like a drink? me on coke you sure you'd like coke or do you want some orange? we have coke okay, are you sure, cos you've already had some coke mummy me are gonna go in there no no put them back in there darling, they're what we got at the pictures a little bit to see snow white, didn't we? no, no next you wanna go and see peter pan? and, and er cinderella what about cinderella? we want to go and see cinderella cinderella, oh i don't know when that one's coming down if it comes down to the pictures we'll go and watch it, i'll promise you that, right, who's nicked my cup? er mum yeah, hold on let me just go in the other room and see if my cup's in there i made in it here it is mum yes love i didn't want a drink oh well it's there if you want it ta mum, thanks that's what i needed just what you needed mummy get it a big, big oh right, you've all got drinks and you've all got something to eat, well while you're doing that then i must do these bingo yes mum, i don't mind let's put this away, i've got to find a space first those are mummy no what? no please don't find a space oh i've got to find a space to get to a newspaper, to do the bingo numbers why you is it, why you eating a piece of luncheon meat? well, just something to nibble on that's savoury and not sweet like popcorn yeah, but that's sweet rather that one was sweet yeah, cos you can get popcorn sweet too yeah, but you can also get it with salt mm can't eat popcorn then you put erm anyway salt's bad for you salt's bad? mm yeah, but you, you try the popcorn yeah darling but that one wasn't with erm pepper no that wasn't with salt, that was just with erm row, row, row the boat, gently down the stream, merrily merrily life what? oh, hang on a minute darling, i've got to do this hello, hello mum ma erm, dinner, dinner our, dinner, i've got a mum yeah i want a bit of sauce okay, yeah, but don't go too mad right, let's get all these bingo cards done, see if we've won this time, i doubt it very much, never won anything in our lives, i can't see us starting now bye, bye, me see you later hello, hello are you trying to sing anthony mark? that's enough mum, i mum ma that's enough darling, you don't want to put too much on it, it's just a waste there you go mum well put it over there i've finished good girl, at least you've eaten it all up mummy yeah mum ma mm alright? chew it next time i know, gonna see if other nan's in tonight aren't we? who nanny ? yeah, if we've got time, right, see if mummy can, oh i know what i want before i do that it's alright, i just wanna get my head band, mummy's hair's getting long at the front, i must get sara to cut it not mine no yours is okay ain't got no playschool next week, have we? ah? half term er mummy don't want that i've had enough what's today's date? let's see, it can't be then, that's dad's birthday, so it must be the twenty third today, look in my little book mum ma are you doing in your little book er pardon me right twenty second, twenty two, who's what darling? who did blowed off? he meant burped who did burped? you did you little piggy so you say pardon i say pardon oh that's alright then me go up to bed what now? yeah alright if you say, before i start me bingo but mummy careful, careful merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream bring your chair over then and we'll wash your hands, hang on let mummy do it, don't drag it, good boy, let's run the tap then you can get back to sleep me up get the soap then me, me don't take too long then cos that water's pretty cold quick then have you eaten that all up charlotte? i don't want any more bread or my luncheon meat what you putting more sauce on for then? oh but this isn't my bit of cheese in oh, well, alright yeah a bit cold yeah a bit cold, are you gonna dry your hands and i'll put your chair back right, bingo, well done charlotte, what game we on? four, one, two mum ma yeah er are daddy come in and daddy come out mm daddy won't be out for a while though he's watching terminator he's got a lot of nasty in there? it's got a lot of nasties in it that's why i'm sitting out here looking after you having some dinner yeah, having some dinner, well we didn't have any did we, cos mummy took you to the pictures with nanny row, row, row the boat gently down the stream, merrily, merrily life merrily, merrily life is but mummy yeah mm don't knock the table mummy mm, charlotte stop rocking the table darling mummy mm me undone meat, meat well you'll have to get it out the fridge, alright let charlotte get it cos she's easier to get it than you ant the meat yeah, get the plate of meat charlotte good girl, well done mummy erm, i want a bit that's not got too much fat on it don't you? that's a nice bit mm yeah, do you want that bit? i've got that on it yeah, give me the knife and i'll cut it off no, i want, me a bit tired yeah i know, but don't start going off to sleep now, not if you want to see your other nanny nanny you want to go and see nanny don't you? mum look oh actually come to think of it mum look, mum look good girl, there you go we made it a nice one, yeah? i'm not gonna talk to you why? mum look when did that happen? i bite, i was biting it oh well that's your silly fault then i want a new one you can't have a new one why? cos we're not at the pictures that's right quickly go to the pictures oh they'll be shut now won't they? why? well cos some, everybody has to go home, it's too late for you to be going out now anyway to pictures what you doing? taking the fatty bits off darling, mummy don't like the fatty bits either stay at granddad's for a little while, while daddy watches that film and then go and see other nanny for a little while, cos you've got no playschool tomorrow so you haven't got to get up early have you? mum could you teach me how to play that? not now, no, we're having dinner and i'm doing this bingo for a minute look bring your where is it? get your pencil i don't know where they are, they maybe in the front room run in and ask granddad where they are, but don't look at the telly, then come out and i'll show you how to do it i am yeah, it's quite easy mum ma mm daddy wants a bit of coke well come out and get it then, got the pencils haven't you? yeah mm mum ma, i want a bit of that one there take that then don't spill it don't you want to drink it? me undone my, get, get my beat in, meat in ah vinegar me like vinegar mm mm right push the door up, push the door up if you've got pencils, good girl i er, i bring right bring the tin round here and i'll find you a pencil right, now bring your snow white thing round, that's the best one to use, right what about anthony? no anthony's still eating darling, right, now that word there says doc, d o c which is the name of one of the dwarfs, okay, so in all them letters there is the name doc, so you've got to look for those three letters d o c alright, so you go along, no let me show you how to do it then. you go along each line and you find a d there but there's no os next to it is there? so you go along to the next d and there's no os there, so you come down, d, no os, so you keep going along the lines and every time you get to a d you stop d o c that's it, d o c and then all you do is you draw a line around it oh dear, no we want another pencil, this one ain't gonna work on here is it? my, see if we can find a pen or something, that one might work, lean on the table cos it'll be easier not too bad yeah, right, then you'll scrub that one out like that, cos you've done that one, alright, then you pick another word and you look for it, right look for grumpy g r u m p y and you start by going across the top, alright? you get a nice space to sit down at the table move my plate and i'll sit here yeah, well what about saying please please what did you say? now do it quietly that big red one? well, no, er grumpy where's grumpy? i don't know what's in it that one g r u m p y, right? grumpy right, you do that and i'll do this that one down the bottom mummy i do, i do done me hang on, let me just do this game on card no let me just finish this game no you haven't finished eating yet no, me didn't eating now what about your cheese? eaten it yeah finish your cheese while mummy's finishing this card and then erm is that, does that a c, a proper c ah well you do it charlotte you've got to match the letters up, not much good if i've got to stop to keep helping you is it? the idea is so you can do that while mummy does this no, no, hungry thirty five , twenty one, fifty four, sixty nine, twenty, oh, there, five is not there ah, look i've got it i saw this, one of those right, mum i finded erm one of those, but i just can't see any cs or that number well charlotte it's not easy, it's gonna take you a long time, but then so mum, mummy i can find c mm, mm that number with the and so that number we're running out of room on this table that number, that number mummy move back where am i gonna move it to? push, push it back there, then you can carry on eating if you want to, then you can sit there that number i'm only showing you once darling and then you'll have to do it or else i'll never get me bingo done, alright, you choose a word to look for like doc mm right that's d o c and then you look on here and you look for a d o c, when you found it you put a ring around it alright? like that mum i find it, c, that number, that number, that number yeah, but they don't join up charlotte and then you cross and then you cross it out yeah but this can't find them right, so you cross this out and now you've got to look for another word erm it's very hard, if you can't do it go to the snow white picture and colour the picture and me gonna do it what? no, we'll, we'll do it together later when mummy's got time to sit and help you alright? yeah when i've done me bingo yeah me gonna colour in on there you go if i put the pencil there, don't knock it off though why? cos you'll drop all your pencils that's why they're not there no number one i think, no mummy not it on there no, no well get another one then no me got another one er one me doing, i find a two that match up together mum, look yeah, but you've got to have a complete word that matches charlotte look it matches look why don't you do the colouring for now and then i'll help you do that in a little while when i've done this bingo? alright alright, good girl where is this picture then? here it is snow white and the seven woofs dwarfs, not woofs no ah it's going in the butter no it's not ah not if you don't move it, it won't go in the butter just leave it down i don't want and move it over right mum ma here look, why did anybody move it? put it down where i left it, put it down, let go anthony i wanna put it in the butter it's not in the butter, look, let go and you'll see it's not in the butter, it is over the butter which is alright, now don't fight who had the brown hat? but that and those had the brown set that, that and that, right so it's on that one i'll do, he my are where's my i do want it anth grumpy, grumpy yeah grumpy over there? mummy me go in it there's grumpy grumpy, pink colour on there's brown work in grumpy there's thirty there this do, this won't work on grumpy, grumpy do well mum, look what i've done grumpy on done him, i've done him in the right hat you see well done all the right hat that one mum, mum, mum, mum doing the right oh me doing right up anot , he doing a that up, dearie me you supposed to be doing that hat, that hat and that hat me doing it that hat oh anthony sit down before you fall off the chair are you doing that one? you're doing that hat right, you're doing the wrong hat aren't you? you're doing the wrong hat to grumpy to anth, you're doing the wrong hat for grumpy bless you bless you mm how many more times are you gonna sneeze? he might of been taking after sneezy aren't you? oh mum me do it, me are gonna do that and that in a minute right that one here he is anthony sit still you're knocking mummy's arm and like that, which way, which way i don't, ma, ma what is his name? what is that one called? that's grumpy isn't it? no that's grumpy ha, i don't really know darling cos they all look so much alike don't they? oh well shall i just colour in the same hats then? yeah, i think that's probably the best idea i think i there mummy doing now i've got all of the hats on mum doing now i'm gonna do five three, eight a blue one colour it in a blue one what? where's the blue? mum no i think i'll do a purple hat erm, it, it go in here where is, here we are where's this gonna go? i know where that one is oh i need a colouring bit of that thing, colouring harder there i don't know why doc has green hat, where's the, where's the green? grumpy, sneeze, grumpy grumpy sneezy grumpy i wonder if aunty mandy will come down next week? grumpy, grumpy, grumpy, grumpy here that one have to give her a ring won't we charlie? i'm doing it charlie yeah yeah short one mum was that one what was that man, what does the green man do mum? what green man? that one, what, what does he i don't know looking at it upside down darling, hang on, oh keep yours, let me look at anthy's the green one? yeah the green one with the green hat, that one, that one that you're touching with your hand any, hang on anth oh the green one is for what i can see on the picture, i think the green one is sleepy no read it what's on there, does it say sleepy? no it doesn't, i think that's just what it was sleepy darling sleepy, now where's sleepy, oh here he is, here's sleepy not that here's sleepy now he's gonna have a green hat here he is the green hat i did that on there right and now erm a mummy yes love me doing all green you doing it all green are you? erm do you want a little bit more table er do you wanna little bit more table, that's gonna be alright because you've erm, if i move them if you put on that, if i hold them on my lap and then they won't get, you won't want to ask me, do you want another one? erm, no, me want, me wanna do his, erm me wanna do it all green. and when you want one tell me yeah i know what er we've got erm, if we you put mine over there and then the sauce there like that and er and put and that up, any one if you turn yours round yeah and i move this plate that mine yeah, but you don't want to eat it where you going with that plate? me wanna eat it in a minute just leave it there in front of him so that he can eat it if he wants it charlotte put it on here, there i leave it right there and i when i've finished these bingo cards anyway i'll, i'll give the table a good tidy up so we'll have more room and if i move that, that on to there, then i on there like that we can even put the red sauce there can't we, and see what just don't knock ant's plate on the floor no see anth look, if i put the butter up there put that charlotte why you moving everything? it was all fine the way it was i know, but where could we put the pencils on the table? the pencils were alright yeah but i did still did see i do i wanna do a blue i hope granddad don't collect no more of these bingo cards i'll never get through doing them all each week for him, i don't know why we do them eh charlie he never wins? he hasn't got lots , got a big one er, erm a big on there i want that one is that what it ah put this, that across mum, mum, mum, we i want red what ant? what mate? me want no got, me got a, me got a man you've got the wrong hat haven't you? look green hat, purple hat, purple hat, green hat that's brown hat bless you brown hat, brown hat, brown hat bless you blue hat mm, i wanna do see you're doing them all green like you shouldn't be, you should be doing some brown it doesn't matter charlotte, so long as he colours it in i'm colouring mine in nice and there's little nose me i going on the pot oh they have the same noses, orange noses, mum have we got orange in here? i don't know it's your tin of pencils, have a look no we haven't they'll have to have yellow noses then oh dear, you have got the sneezes haven't you? yeah like man like sneezy, yeah yeah, like sneezy i can't see any thirty five there i think we're gonna have grey noses so did you enjoy that film at the pictures then? mum i only what doing never dinner up well you've finished your dinner haven't you? no why, what have you got left to eat? i got a little bit of dinner, dinner there now right i'll put some more on in a moment, hold on let me do this little bit not, it's big, big nose now erm both look tired what? i said you both look tired, that's sat in front of that cinema screen all that time we look tired? yeah, does make you a bit tired when you're watching a big screen like that, it makes your eyes ache after a while, cos you're not used to it, but still you can have a nice lay in tomorrow can't you, cos you've got no playschool tomorrow mum, ma so we're all gonna have a nice lay in aren't we? mum, mum, ma mm what else noses have i got to do this? mummy me getting worn out doing it pardon? me getting worn out you getting worn out are you? er doing it well it's a big i'm getting worn out doing this, it's hurting my eyes after going to the pictures and then doing all these bingo cards for granddad it still, it, it hurting i done that my eyes too mum mum i wanna go oh when daddy's finished we can go you went to see your film now you've got to let daddy watch his. ha, i'm tired mm that's alright though because it doesn't, i'm not worried tonight because you can lay in tomorrow cos as i say there's no playschool or gymnastics is there? what go, mum, ma, i can't do any more well don't do it then darling, you don't have to do it mum, ma just sit down and finish eating your lunch, your dinner and you've done them a bit all green haven't you, why don't you do some of erm cos he's tired ain't you love? some, the other colours, look what i've done, i've done mine pretty not at a pretty, i like it all green he likes it all green don't you ant? mm yeah, but i like mine pretty so mummy me nearly did it now jolly good, i think mummy's nearly finished her bingo too mummy, i wanna dinner on, dinner i'm finishing i don't know why i bother though cos you never flipping win anything oh yeah oh yeah and me you've got too many green ones haven't you? if your mother wins anything it'll be a bloody miracle what about it like this, see, i've done all those hats, i've done the, i've gone a great hat i have mum, ma i want a great hat mum i've done them all the right hats we needed eighty five on the last one didn't we? hang on a minute , one, two, three, one, two, three forty five mummy cor, yeah mate i want you to help me do that now when do, do it oh yeah i've finished my bingo now oh i've forgot someone's hat yeah who's hat did you forget? come here then let's see if we can do the word search this mum i wanna do that one do what darling? i wanna do the word search i do that one i do i wanna do that right, i read what it says on here then, okay, you listening? still the fairest one of all, snow white and the seven dwarfs is back and coming to theatres everywhere, snow white is a beautiful, captivating and timeless of the day everyone fell in love with her, in the world first full length animated feature. filled with the magic and beauty that will continue to thrill audiences for years to come, snow white tells the story of a beautiful young princess and her jealous step mother the queen. when the queen plotted to have her killed, snow white is forced to hide in the forest that surrounds the castle, but not before being noticed by the handsome prince, helped by her animal friends and offered shelter by the lovable seven dwarfs mum she remained hidden from her cruel stepmother, knowing that one day her prince will come, snow white and the seven dwarfs is a mor as memorable as the songs that fill the movie hello that fill the movie with music and everyone's heart of joy, with the contagious hit tunes whistle while you work, hi ho and some day my prince will come, you'll be tapping your toes and singing along in no time, let the story telling magic of walt disney capture your heart mum that works, some, some in this timeless classic snow white and the seven dwarfs i know, but i've also got to do the tea as well for granddad and daddy and phillip. and karen yeah, no karen's not here and bubber and big bubber, bubber not er bubber, here are mum look this one hold on , what? this, i've just done that so remember we've done it okay this done that, see yeah i'll be with you in a minute, hold on mum can you this yes in a minute what are you doing carried away that there we go, i've done that now, right mum mum ma i've just done that to know with, we've done that okay? mm yeah, that's right, i'll just pop the kettle on and then we'll start to find another, oh well done anthy, well done. you going to get a different colour pencil and do a different colour little birdies? no, erm i wonder if any birds have eaten any of that erm food yet that's outside in garden at home? maybe not no, we'll have to have a look tomorrow they'd better hurry up and eat though hadn't they? well now what we're, we're we looking for here? for erm g, a he only started to write grumpy, mum look what i've started to write, grumpy mum ma ah buy these there's some buttons here do you want some? ah i want no, i'll put them back in here then yeah do you want them or not? mummy he had mine, i want mine, i want to read my own, i wanna, i wanna have mine right who's having which one then? me having i'm having here that one, i'm having that one right, that's a good choice, okay mum, ma do you want me to read them? yeah alright then i can read my own alright here we go then, here's anthony's see saw marjory door, johnny shall have a new master, he shall have but a penny a day, because he can't work any faster and charlotte is, let's have a look then hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle i, i know that one hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle the cow jumped over the moon, the little dog laughed to see such fun and the dish ran away with the spoon well done darling mm ah i know that one you really are getting clever aren't you? i, i've always knowed that ah, well yes i know you've always known it mum ma hold on, let me put some of this away have you two finished with your plates? yeah yeah, do you think you've had enough now? so if we move some of these off the table yeah we'll have more room to do our pictures i can do oh no get one we don't want to go in the other room and watch the nasties do we? no i get down so you've finished anthony have you? mum look, i done my own buttons good girl do you want me to do, i can do it charlotte have you finished with your dinner? do you want me to do it? no if he says no, he says no don't fight me don't fight nanny won't take your pictures any more, do you want me to open anthony? yes if i do this to opening up see saw, see saw, the marjory in a door mum ma me wanna do a bit of green okay then, well you do a bit of green then, i'll tidy up and then we'll carry on what are them? ant what about erm snow white's dress? i'm doing in it yeah, let him do it how he wants to charlotte you can't do a green all that mummy know why? cos it'll look stupid we'll do erm another perhaps another of drawing and that and then we've got to erm get pyjamas on why? well, because then we've got to sort out all our stuff to take home well what about like i say there's no rush cos we haven't got to go, you haven't got school tomorrow hiya ah dad do you want me to make you a coffee in a minute? mm yeah eh? please marjory door went off her car, eating her give us a kiss then put more water in then along came a spider i miss you and sat down beside her you miss me have you? liar and frightened miss muffet away and frightened the spider away from this map, this map work's on here mm, yeah well i will be with you in a minute darling, it's just that i've got a hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon, the little dog laughed to see such fun and the dish ran away with the spoon, hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon, the little dog laughed to see such fun and the dish ran away with the spoon oh what am i doing? the dish ran away with the spoon hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon, the little dog laughed to see such fun and the plate ran away dish ran away with the spoon and the plate ran away with the spoon no, the dish ran away with the spoon, the spoon goes with the dish darling but look, look, it's a shape of a plate i know, but it's a dish that goes away with the spoon love hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon, the little dog laughed to see such fun and the dish ran away with the spoon another packet of buttons me eat them? no show me charlotte there look wait a minute me only hey diddle diddle, the cat i'll be with you in a minute, let me just finish making the tea and the fiddle mum, ma yeah, oh don't tip them all over the table sweetheart oh right, i want a coffee mum ma yes wait a minute, he and not got a ticket on well that's alright hang on a minute this one hasn't got the ticket on yeah well don't get muddled up whose is who why? i don't want you two fighting over them that's why, you know what you two are like write your name on them you can't write your name on them darling you can you just keep hold of yours and anthony keep hold of his l, o p, p, e, e, h, h, r, l not e, r, h, h, l mummy o, t, t, e marjory door, the little bit more, in the and down came the spider and sat down behind her and frightened miss muffet away,there's a spider on about a spider we're going see little miss muffet? yeah miss muffet sat on a tuffet yeah me a spider miss muffet sat on a tuffet eating her curds and wheys, along came a spider, along came a, no i not say along came a spider and sat down beside her, along came a spider and sat down beside her and frightened miss muffet away right i've got one more drink to make my dears and then i'll be with you what about our drinks? you've got coke, that's your treat each week, cos you don't have it at home, you only have it on a sunday i've not got in there yeah they're probably for little robert darling, but he's not here is he? mm he didn't come up anthy out here on the sun, with the there aren't any nasty in there no but there will be in a minute er, erm, me up well they're all trying to watch the film sit down mum he was here but we were too late i know to see him right come on then, you've got to finish your right, come on ant right, alright, let's go and see if we can find these words anthy, anthy, anthy along came a spider and set down behind her oh don't scrape your chair across the floor look the mat's working what, why you've been crossing them off? where's me pen? i didn't cross them off right i didn't cross them off okay you didn't cross them off look at this just okay then, you've got to try and find bashful where's bashful? well find the letter b and you anthy where's bashful? is it down the bottom? aren't you doing it? no, not there, doing that bit oh alright then what, what is the you've got to find the letter b is that it? that's a capital b bashful, i can't find the letter b mm there's b is there an a next to it? erm a capital a no, that's not it, is it? what about down there? no mm, i know what the problem is what? well there's young children yeah hold on yeah you're first taught to write in small letters, these crosswords or as they print most crosswords in erm capital letters, and of course you don't recognize them do you? i don't remember you don't recognize the two different types of as and bs mum is that it bashful? yeah, but you won't find it in there because you don't recognize the letters darling well there's b and it's not not on there there, now what are we? which? where is it? which one is it? mum ma mum ma i'm not where is it? is it up the top b, that one yes, very well done anthony where's mm where's the first letter? mummy where's the first letter? b a s h f u l it's down there, but it's all in capital letters you see, now you've got to find the diamond, which is what they, where did they, where were they looking for diamonds? there do you want the other half? no i've been sat there all evening nobody's eaten it so i thought i might as well get on and eat it i've never tried it actually it's cheesecake dear no it's not like the cheesecake i had oh it's not a thick creamy one, it's a home made one innit? mm? let me sit on your lap let me sit on the table half term next week innit mate? mm yeah, right, now we're going to look for diamonds, where were they looking for diamonds? i've pointed that one off that's it, no they went to look for diamonds in the cave when they went to work didn't they? is it that one? that one diamonds yeah so now you've got to find the letter d mum ma there yeah, then you've got to find the letter i, i think it's there d i a m o n d that's it there look mum ma let me cross it off go on then i wanna help me do it where? there? okay love, yeah down there around the d at the bottom and then back up to the d at the top why are you eating some, some cheesecake? i think they saved it for me darling there you go, i've crossed it off, look okay i've comed it cross it off down here oh look cross it off down there here? yeah, let me eat this last piece of cheesecake then i can help you i'm gonna buy you, er now what one are we gonna look for? mm? now what one are we looking for? now dopey sleepy? dopey dopey my love dopey there, dopey there do it in pen cos the pencil don't show up, yeah dopey, d o p e y we've got to find let me do the pen, so it's that one yep right, where i do oh i can see it there? no erm where? there d o p e y there, start from there no charlotte, did i just say there? i didn't, i didn't, i wasn't d o p e y er what about, got me yeah start from there? yeah d o p e y right now cross dopey off your list where? yeah, that's it right that's enough, now we're gonna find grumpy, i can see grumpy up there look, g r u m p y that one? yes, g r u m p y, so you've got to draw a circle round grumpy round them that's it all the way along to the letter y mum ma mum ma there that's it come round the y, now go back to the g, start, where you going? mum ma , mum ma i can't see a blinking thing you're doing mum ma when me in the morning mm when me in the morning cross it off down there, yeah look yeah here? grumpy there mummy when me in the morning now i wanna look for that one when me in the morning, me wanna go on that you wanna do yours tomorrow do you? yeah, that right, now i wanna we're gonna look for castle i wanna do that one we've just done grumpy, we're gonna do the castle now, don't point the pen up to your face that's how you get pen on your face that one yeah castle right right, erm now this one is gonna be a little bit harder for me yeah here it is c yeah there's the, no that's mum, me a there is is c a s t l e c c a s t l e, there's all wobbly bits in the table isn't there? cross castle off there? yeah, right, so we've done those and we've done doc so now we've got to find a bit of no, no, they're all right, got to find dwarfs now what's ah there is is look d w a r f s right cross it mum, mum yes love me wash up? no i've done it all oh right cross dwarfs off, that one that one? yeah mummy me wanna do it next that's it time now we're gonna find happy happy it happy mum ma yes anthy do it where's happy, there it is, is that happy there it is h a p p y, you've got the pen ready? mm, i wanna do it, there? yeah so round there no, see, you don't watch do you? round right now cross happy off there no that doesn't say happy does it? that say happy? mm does that say happy? yes darling mum ma right, now we're gonna find poison apple and i know where that one is where? where? poison apple along the bottom, the whole bottom line except for the letter t okay? yeah mum ma go on then, what darling? that one yeah, start from round there now go all the way along and around and all the way back and stop. cross poison apple off there? yeah all of it? yeah poison apple off right stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop when you're told now we want right prince prince, now that easy to find, i, hang on a minute i'll be able to find that alright then, i won't help prince mum, ma yeah here what darling? here's prince i finded it prince where? well that's that number, but it's not altogether is it? no that's right, you've only found the letter p, you've got to find p r mum ma i can see it there? no i get the pen i wasn't gonna draw it mum, ma just look, i'm not gonna do the circle i'm just gonna demonstrate where it is, p r i n c e, down to the e, hang on i've knocked the pen out mummy down to there? start from there? start from the p not the n the p there? no, where's my finger, there, look you don't watch do you, you, you're so worried about other things, right cross prince off mum ma prince mind you don't fall love mm, me what a get right, queen you've got to find now, that's enough, cor dear, you don't have to cross it off so you can't see it q u e e n get up on that chair you're giving me headache keeping having to look round mum, mum what are you doing sat up in the high chair? that over there with two r no we're doing queen with two es mum ma want your buttons over there? yeah and your drink? and your cat? there's two and a do it on my button now i wouldn't darling because that might be a bit grubby mum i want it mum i finded two that's not together right which is, they're anty's aren't they? mum well it won't make any difference, i'll give you a dish oh i want i get you a dish for them tip out there no you don't want to tip it out on there cos you get germs darling mm do you want a dish? no i'll give you a dish, yeah i know, i know you're not to open them but i'm just making sure that you know that they're yours, now do you want a dish or not? no right i want here i finded two but there's not it's fine if you want to eat them anthony but don't moan when charlotte has hers tomorrow, there you go er and be careful because mum, i can't it's a bit bent, your drink it'll fall find two you can't find it? no, i finded two there but it's not together queen, right, well first of all what? ah that one ah there it is, q u e e n, right start from there there? right draw a line along, go round the end there? yeah, but you're not pointing the pen down, hold the pen up so that it makes the line right then oh it's hopeless trying to help you innit, you're so independent you won't have no one help you and the pen's not coming out, see you're not doing it right i don't mind helping you, but you've got to let me show you, now go all the way along, round the q, come round here, come round here, round here, back along, stop. right cross queen off that one? yeah that one? no, the queen, the top one, you know we're doing the top one, now we're doing sleepy underneath it there? yes, s l e e p y sleepy this one, not there, that one, okay? that one? yes so there's o no wonder you give me headache sometimes having to repeat every thing tut, right s l e e p y, right so draw that one? a line from that s all the way down to the y, right round the y and back up mum oh well put them in the dish, round and join if up, right now cross off sleepy there? yep, right now we're gonna do sneezy s n e e z y, there it is, s n e e z y, so start from the s again, come down to the y, go round the y and back up to the s, not that wide and go back up, up side, the word charlotte, alright now cross it off down there there? now why you crossing snow white off? oh, that's not snow white yes it is, we've just done sneezy is that it? yes, you're not me , oh i hate doing things with you this time of night you've got no concentration have you? now it's snow white yeah, even though you've crossed it off, oh that's handy sitting right next to the bin innit? s n o w h w w h i t e no ain't it in right start from that s and bring your line all the way down to this e, that's it keep coming straight down,m ,m , make the pen mark mum ma the paper let me make, get me down now you can cross snow white off and all we've got left to find is witch, oh, there it is, right go from the w, w, w, from the w, right now come down, oh i'd better help with this one because it's diagonal, i t c mum let me down right now cross witch off mm, mm mum i don't wanna that you have to get them on, pyjamas on, with the dressing gowns on, you little i'll go and get that big bucket everybody knows it's mine in moon, postman went i tell you what your dad's taken us to playschool to show them at play school won't you? why? well show them that you've been to the pictures er, who, who why do they want to eat him? ah, well sometimes when they make popcorn yeah right, popcorn starts off as little, like little brown seedy things and when it gets heated up it all pops up into fluffy white stuff, those little brown bits that nobody ate were the hard little bead things that didn't pop up, sometimes they don't pop up you see oh that's why you erm, tipped them out yes because they're not very nice to eat they just get in your teeth i'll rinse these up oh i'm gonna play a drum on this i can even play it like a drum ah, no, don't do that charlotte playing drum finish that picture i want to put your pyjamas on in a minute mm, mm, mm you'll be able to show them what you had at pictures, won't you? when you go back after half term you'll be able to show karen and carol and mrs yeah erm at that's right you'll have to show all your friends that you went to the pictures no, mum ma, mummy move it in there er careful, you gonna save them other buttons for at home tomorrow? yeah and in the morning and yeah it's half term tomorrow so there's cartoons on tomorrow me eat, me want to eat them and my, and my tomorrow alright then, mummy will, mummy will put them on the table? no put them in that bag in there you want me to put them in the bag? yeah and then mum look what i've done, i did her penned eyes oh yeah it look's beautiful don't it? i'm put in there, in that big do what, are we gonna sort your pyjamas out now? no well i think we should mum ma, mum ma yes love we want to stay up here well get down and get your jarmies on and then you can get back up there otherwise, if we don't get them on, and when daddy's ready to go you're not going to have time to go and see your other nanny cos we won't be mummy me sit down and, and watch me mum i am watching my love watch me now you can do it all by yourself can you? yeah well done, watch you don't spill that drink down there and me do it well done anthony very good me a big boy now well i think you most certainly are who's that? oh either yours or charlotte's i want to eat them what now? yeah let's have a seen them on no they're anthony's charlotte cos you ate yours, your went, your bag went empty cos you had minstrels in it right are you gonna get up here then? yeah, and me and you can eat them while i'm getting your pyjamas on yeah, that an idea yeah, come on then that an idea then? how good yeah you'll have to make sure you give your teeth a thorough clean, get up here mum look that's pretty love me and that yeah, come on then look at your nice posh shirt it's all dirty now, what? me wanna do it you won't be able to do it, it's all buttons, alright me know how to do it no don't just pull it you'll pull the buttons off, not poppers you no, fatty look at you take it off then, no you don't take your shirt off like that, you take your shirt off like this, that's it, you're a big boy ain't you? no, me er leave my vest on ooh this is gonna be yeah you must leave your vest on yeah okay, plonk your bottom down there and we'll undo your shoes no bum oh it's bum is it? sorry mum look oh we got your slipper now me and put it on oh anthony why can't you wait until i've got the other shoe off? oh i've got a pluto on jarma on me yeah no pluto now you've got to get back up again me, me have got on now and as you're warm yeah i'll leave your top up, i just get your jarmy bottoms on, i'll leave your top off alright? i'm warm yeah, that's alright you can leave your top off but you must put your bottoms on aagh little on ah nan bought ah in that's the coke that nan bought you, but we bought you some more didn't we, so we'll save them for tomorrow we, you didn't bought us any more coke yeah we bought you the cartons in the picture, anthy let me do your pyjamas, you know they're there, you know that, what nanny got you? oh yeah get up here, don't lay them down they might leak all over my books and i will be in trouble yeah, i want there stop worrying about everything, do you want any mummy me want to eat them in the high chair you taking these off? erm yeah right mummy me want to eat them in that high chair, you staying out here? of course i'm staying out here until we go home in a minute, that film's nearly finished dad's watching and then we're gonna mummy, mummy mm we wanna go in there mum nearly finished that's a good idea, that's why i've sat out here tonight darling, not watched the telly, cos there's a lot of nasties in those sort of films and they're not for little children i want a big only little children go and see things like snow white, peter pan, cinderella yeah, mummy mm when you get bigger you can watch the nasties, yeah, when you get a lot bigger so will me, can i? one day when you're all grown up, yeah yeah you bigger and daddy bigger and er and one day when you've got the worries of the world to think about much bigger yeah everybody's bigger mum if we've got a world to live in as they say better get my pyjamas on before they get, before daddy gets yeah, cos we've got to do your inhaler as well and we'd better wipe that all that muck off your face, all that tomato sauce me washed my face in the bath yeah i know, but, i'll have to wipe it in a minute why a babywipe? no i get some tissue i'll do it it's alright i'll do it mummy me i mummy do your shoes darling please and me a little baby what? and me a little baby me did you? yeah oh take me socks off? me a big boy now no leave your socks on, just take your trousers off, either leave your knickers on or take knickers off it's up to you you've got that song on the brain now haven't you, you leaving these on? i think about it i'd leave them on, might as well, seeing as you like wearing them erm mummy what's anthony done to his? well he takes his off, but he always takes his off mummy you always leave yours on mummy, mummy, throw that in the bin? these trousers fit you don't they? yep if it's empty anthony you can throw that in the bin no, me wanna cut it out tomorrow yeah you can put it in your playschool bag for cutting out yeah that's an idea alright that's an idea then mummy put it in mummy you screwed mine up no i didn't, i brought it home, right put your bottoms on mummy save it hang on i wanna take my my knickers off yours is there , there look i wanna take my knickers off well do it then, i'll put it in there and mine mum i'll leave them on. just make your mind up, cos daddy be out in a minute, that film's nearly finished is that right mum? mm is that right? is the ticket at the back? oh no it's at the front well then it's not right is it? that way mummy mm and that goes on that so i'm putting these other packet of buttons with anthony's, in there for tomorrow i don't mind if you put them in there good, don't want to eat any more do we, you'll be sick no you've had a good day out today mum ma one, two, three, four, five mummy that'll go in there don't you want it? me go and put it in a drink yeah me do it no i'll do it, i'll erm clean your face in a minute then we'll all be ready when daddy's ready, how you going, wow a bit of a problem? mummy i want a big bowl have a big bowl eh? i want a big bowl okay, there's your you'll have to put your top on in a minute, okay, oh it's filthy me, me wash it why? because it'll be time to go in a little while mummy me wash it no you can't wash it here me wash it in the bath that's not ours to wash darling the bowl yeah it don't belong to us, okay puff on your inhaler, one, two, three, four, five, six mum ma me me got it in oh, puff, one, two, three, four, five, six, right, can you put those slippers on, i'll take your hair bands out, get your top on and that, get your face washed can i, mummy i want it'll be time to go in a minute, no i'll do it there's two in there oh can't take the top one out without taking the bottom one out first ow! sorry, sorry stop that no sorry it's mummy's fault, she pulled the wrong one, that's it, good girl, i'll er brush your hair in a minute, get all your knots out, right, sit down for a minute, well turn round, there no you don't want to go to bed with knots in your hair mum due for sarah to come round soon to have it trimmed again ain't you? no not mine yes and yours no i'm not i, mum you always have your hair cut every six weeks young man keep all the knots away mummy my mine either pussy cat needs a cut he head too there we go, ah my pussy cat got a knot in it no your pussy cat's alright cos you washed his hair no, he yeah and bathed him yeah and got a knot in him well we're not bathing him again it takes three days to dry him ah it takes a long time no right out mum ma yeah, i wonder what cartoons they'll have on tomorrow for the kid's holiday ah? might be mickey mouse, is he got on? no might be donald duck and mickey mouse and on the day i think it was on this morning yeah but it's erm on tomorrow no that's only on at the weekends darling erm, mummy we go er on morrow right monday monday's tomorrow darling mummy i, i never know well i don't know till we have a look at the telly pages at home mummy and me i like in the morning eh? and me i like in the morning yeah me and got a dog, on a do that, that dog do you? that, yeah no that's a word that not a dot to dot me wanna do er a in the morning mummy he said dot to dot, he wants to do the word no, what, me want to do a da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da so have i got a new song ah, da, da, da, da cat and the fiddle the little dog, how does the i can the cat and fiddle go? hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon, the little dog laughed to see such fun and the dish ran away with the spoon ooh we ain't done your faces yet have we? no mary, mary no, no, no da, da, da, da, da, da, a, da, da, in the morning anthony me doing that, mummy me doing that look at what? me doing that hold on i'll give you something to look at i de, da, da, do, the dog do, do i'll give him this one to read no i'll give him this one cos i wanna look at that one no i give him this one, there you go mm, mm hang on to that one a minute anth let us now, now now, me done superman me done superman, done superman, there are their don't da, da, da, da, do, do, there, their did you are, da de da are with the da, da, de, da, de da with the de da, mm, de, da, de, do with de, da, de, da, oh we're glowing in the glowing in the da, de, de, do, mm, mm, mm, all the off today, dab be de do, dab be de do, put on their clothes all the mauve colour their clothes in the mauve colour their clothes i want their clothes they wear, their clothes, their clothes, colour their clothes in the, in the merrily most me got a make a and my that yeah me not got are all the same in in there, mummy i got me and me got in and green, green, da, da, do, do, da merrily, merrily life is but a dream superman merrily, merrily quite contrary we done, we da, da, da, de, de, do, da, de, da, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, da, de, do, da, de, da, erm da, erm da, de, do, de, de, de, da, de, de, do, da, do, give us the bag aagh give me hope you're not fighting now wait a minute, wait a minute, let jordan have some toys, he's only a baby, hello darling, hello no, don't leave that there jordan's playing with that darling, look show me this car you want, show me this car that you want i want the at here right, well let's have a look then i want a car as well mum a car no, you're a girl no i need to have a look at the picture anthy, oh look goofy's on again in a minute gooey in a minute yeah mummy can mummy have a look then? mummy ah, you've got them everywhere that's alright you don't need to do them up it's not cold, anywhere not found it yet? okay let me have a look mummy yeah, but don't rip the book, don't rip the book or we can't show daddy no, no look what's on telly? goofy goofy i wanna get goofy, goofy, goofy, goofy, goofy,goo i can't see, i can't see ah, let me own mummy, mum that, er that, mum ma, mum ma yes dar yeah hello darling, what you got? oh no he bit a mummy mum i want to put it over, i want to put it down hello darling what's the matter? no, you, go down mum down mum what's the matter darling? my to do games do it oh darling what's the matter? do it mummy, mummy oh i think i'm going to go and make you a bottle, make you a bottle shall i? yeah you mum, mum do me and, and i only two yeah let's put the kettle on first i don't want to mummy, mummy oh jordan what's the matter darling? i want to put it back up , put it back up jordan what's the matter? what's the matter eh? mummy's gone to get the work, don't cry put it in everybody's up above the sky, everyone monday morning upon the sky mum ma, don't want any more, don't want any more, don't want any more can everybody knows his mum ma rainbow climbing high, everyone can see it climbing over the sky, rainbow, here's a rainbow yeah today poor he's lost his, he's lost the mummy i want a car mm and didn't know where to find i want a car alright then ah, a car he, little bo peep had lost her sheep and didn't know where to find her, leave her alone, little bo peep had lost her sheep and didn't know where to find her, leave them alone and they'll come home searching for them everywhere they, are, didn't right if you had that new bed then er will you sleep in it like a good boy? yeah well daddy has got to say first ain't he ah me got a if daddy says no though you can't have it alright? when he gets, when daddy comes home you'd better give him a big cuddle and ask him mummy and that what is that you eating? it's a hard sweet i want one no they're horrible one to go here we go all the toys, alright now, alright i borrow it now i'm busy you okay? ow oh sing a song, sing a song round and round, round and round mm a mum and he was crying oh was he? i was just getting his bottle mummy get him another toy hello darling , oh i'm tired you didn't eat all your breakfast did you? mum ma broke down broke down, you rescuing it are you? yeah, er lorry, er look clever boy then? yeah, mummy car, mummy car didn't know where to find him, leave him alone and they will come home wagging their tails behind them mummy er little bo peep has found her sheep, didn't know where to find them, they were sad on a leaving their tails behind little bo peep has found her sheep, didn't know where to take them, thank goodness your back on all is back, wagging their tails behind them come on darling it's alright that i've got it didn't know where to find them, leave them alone and didn't know where to find them, leave them alone and they will come home wagging their tails behind them aagh little bo peep has lost her sheep and doesn't know where to find them, leave them alone sheep, doesn't, where to find them and they'll come home dragging their tails behind them i can't down there down there, nee naw, nee naw, nee naw little bo peep has lost her sheep when they are mine oh jordan come on, you was thirsty weren't you? come here love, alright, sshh, sshh, it's alright mummy i got the all the children watching the pictures sshh, sshh mum ma oh darling come on, come on mum what oh you're tired this is all the children watching the pictures yeah, jordan's sleeping a little while in his cot, he's tired i want something for lunch so i little bo peep has lost her sheep, didn't know where to find them, leave them alone and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them, mum ma, here oh go and put it in the bin then oh, who's drunk all his bot-bot? oh jordan it's all gone, you can always have another one if you're still hungry, got some windy there? good boy tired, yeah mum ma it going there's a good boy was that nice, yeah? anthy what you doing sat under the table got a boat in oh it me get in it charlotte don't put pens in your mouth, i've told you about that before mm, can we play that game? not while jordan's awake, we'll play it a little bit later he'll be when will going, he'll be going up into his cot in a minute, he's very tired, so mum ma i wanna have the lunch it's not lunch time yet i've got to sort out all these paperwork in a minute ah, me done it it's a wonder you didn't wake the baby up with the noise you're flipping making. done it get off of that done it, done it right, let's sort out here what we don't want then stop, get off of it er you right we've got to keep that, i'll give you what i don't want and you can put it in the bin want that? right we want that one don't take me want that don't want that one me want that one erm you said i could have it you can have that one as well, there's one on the floor you can have yeah you can have that, you can have that, move that anthy, right there's one for you and one of those for you ah i wanna see what, what every one then here are then, here you can have all them then on the floor mum ma yeah you can have it i'm gonna have these, open, you can have this one that goes with that oh mum can we open this and see if we've won? yeah you can have them and then put them in the bin cos i don't want them me and me mum there's some in there and that are i can't open and see the big one mm i can't open it to see the big one that, that, that, that, that, that i can't open it to see what's it doing oh anthy what you doing? shall put it in there in there oh anthy you collecting them? yeah oh for my party, for my part erm want one of these? one of these? right i'd better keep them then cos they're different mum mum what? i don't want a plastic thing there right, well you'd better put them all where's it gone? oh don't worry about it now, all the plastic things then put put on that blue leaflet for now and then when you've taken them all off you can put them in the bin. what we won mum? number seven that says, win number seven. what does, but, what, what, what do we win on the muppet what do we win on the muppet it's not on that one it's this one, you don't need to send this one off anyway cos mummy already gets stuff from there what do we win on hang on, hang on erm this one? we win, what do we win on this one no, er a little birdie look, number seven that, that's a magic swallow mummy i win that win number four win number four a proud sematic, chromatic cockerel on the blue mat we win number eight, we win number eight mum clever girl, that's an owl oh, see what else we win er, mum mummy oh that one says void, don't win on that one no we don't win on that one we win eleven no that one says void ten, you don't win that one then right that one's void anthony, we don't win with that one either erm, this one, it won we need one of, one of no void, don't win with that one oh win number three that a pelican oh we win nothing win nothing, no no, one of mine i didn't win ant, what you win, show us what you win erm win number five, a rose bag, right, now you can keep the tickets if you want, but get all them little plastic things and put them in the bin hooray i want er, did we, what did we win? we win win that right win that have a look the square win that, win that, win, win that what's the date? monday win that this, is it rosie and jim on today? oh wow look at that oh the baby's in bed get your bum down here , you know you don't go upstairs when he's in his cot charlotte yeah but erm me shut the door, shut the door, before you wake him up i've done it erm a, erm a, me erm, me a boy, me a boy what's he, what's being a boy got to do with it? i don't know, i want to charlotte give him some more no he has to try and get one no, you share it out see if you can get one oh yeah that's nice, i like that, do you think that looks alright charlotte? yeah charlotte come in here then that, and a matching bed bedspread to go with the erm duvet a new one, one with, this, it's coming out the what? matching bed duvet and yeah that looks nice, don't it? now we're gonna go inside like that right, inside i'd prefer the darker colours they're nice, we like blue ones don't we? yeah, they're you wanna go up and have a sleepy, you can right shall we, now we're gonna give, shall we give him a yellow scarf? yeah yellow scarf come in then if you want me stop throwing tantrums we have a yellow scarf, yeah, you don't want a yellow scarf yeah i do you do want a yellow scarf, you pick another colour what we gonna have for his hat, you pick what we're gonna have for his hat hang on er on, er on, er on that one, brought out a red one, have we got any red? yeah we have on the nose, but we are you tired again? we need a that's not going to be a very good hat is it? what you doing? what you doing? oh that boy mm what are you throwing a tantrum for? oh dear mm, yeah i'm looking at it at least he's got someone pauline like you mm, you do it babe jordan hiya, hiya right put that back in my pencil case what anthony been in oh yeah anthony this one's better isn't it? yeah sharpen them mummy this one's better now mm yeah oh aaron leave him alone, talk to him talk to him aaron instead of punching him come and fetch them, that's it da, da, da, da, de, da, da, da, da, da, oh, everyone who's his flying over the sky, rainbow this is rainbow, da, da, da, da, de, da jordan, boo everyone who sees him boo over the sky oh dear what's the matter? oh what's the matter, do you want some more drinky? now you've been changed. she said alex said he wouldn't eat any breakfast this morning, he threw a tantrum yeah so i thought right, she said to me he'd want a bottle, so come like ten past eleven, he's like whinging, he's drunk all his milk, then went up and come down and eat all his dinner and his pudding mm, mm had a tantrum this morning didn't you? oh no i haven't i don't want one. i've got kieran back for next week two weeks and then it's half way through march and first week in april i haven't got him, i've got three weeks mummy i don't want one well put it on the table then gary's going to norway the end of march oh is he? yeah the end of march, mm for a week i've still colouring this ant, without you me do it now you can't, me erm, a little bit, i want it nice, don't scribble over it i want i shall go down to the coffee morning at playschool when they break up for easter next week will you promise you won't scribble if you do it like that and then they do some songs and all the other ones and they do some singing and everything and also they give out the bibles to those that are going up to school mm so it's quite nice i've just done it pretty see the only bit about it is you have to sit around when the vicar comes in and you colour that bit and give the talk to the kids on easter and the religious side of it too you know and erm, let's have a look, give me that and the pen no i wanna do that bit mm i don't know if i want it which i think yeah we'll have it i know kids have got to learn about it but surely they can you did it make their own minds up later on if they want to be you are, were gonna have ten why just come to the church of england if they want to now, it doesn't go in no it means nothing to them, what they did last year was sat there and got irritated and they kept like running about and couldn't keep still oh yeah don't want a cos they were listening to some yeah bloke going on about nothing to them, you know they thoroughly enjoyed doing the songs and everything, but when it came to listening yeah to why easter egg being related to easter egg, they don't give a damn, they just want to eat them that's right ready yeah can aaron go upstairs? yes don't make a mess though, yes you can go upstairs, but don't don't make a mess, aunty pauline should of said that go in anthy's bedroom he's got all his cars in there with his garage yeah don't go in charlotte's bedroom, alright, alright, they might have to come down in a minute if you want to go up, ah? but i, mummy hold on, just go up the doors are open, i'll put the light on in a minute, we will won't we, yes we will, he's had a whole bottle of milk and a whole bottle of juice today, you are doing well aren't we? i shut ben in the conservatory now when i go out through the week, we just put him in the garage when we go out the weekend yeah in case we're out a bit longer, i said, tony said we could leave him out there, but like he said if he starts weeing on the carpet yeah that won't be nice in the summer if the kids have got to go out there mm so are you gonna finish that last bit off? yes, no, you don't have to no he's nearly drunk all his juice up he's had a lot to drink today haven't you? yes you have, yeah he still got a lot in the bottle there there is some in there honestly, don't you want it? give you er oh, ah, hold on, er you don't want any hairs on it do we? wonder what that doggy's barking at eh? i wonder what doggy's barking at? yeah, what do you think of your toys to play with mum look at that poor man he's got lipstick on oh yeah i like him with lipstick on, it looks like a lady it does, doesn't it? with red arms, on, erm a dress i, i sent off for two sizes, i'm glad i did now because i thought you know that the small one would be okay for them, but it's not, there's the hat oh yeah and that's the dress is that the little , is that the little dress? i thought for fifteen pounds, seven pounds and forty nine p yeah , yeah that's not bad and i went round to see helen to see if she wanted this one for baby anna but she said this one there is another one in there, erm mum which how big do they think kids heads are because that just fits me i know, which is a tiny one look mm, don't know, do i know any little girls? oh piggy oh that's a good one, see how small that one is compared to that one mm see that's just right for charlotte mm well i was gonna ask you if you knew any girls, i mean for seven pound fifty you can't go wrong, you can't even get that in town with a hat no and i thought before i go and send it back, because i don't know of anybody mummy yeah well go on then i don't know of anyone though, i bought those kind of shoes there mm the bright, the pink ones will be alright won't they? yeah the pink or the lilac yeah, so i thought i might nip into town sometime this week one thing they could of done was put the same colour belt on the erm, oh ribbon on the hat yeah or this, that the same pattern as the dress on the erm, on the belt got the right one for the right belt anyway yeah mummy i'm a bit wet why you a bit wet? cos er aaron go a toilet, me need to go well wait for aaron to come out and you, well you go in the downstairs one now, cos you've got the stool in there then no then you and aaron can play again no i want to go up there well, i mean it's there if you know of anybody, i don't know of anybody you see well you'll have to wait till aaron comes out then decide what age is that for, forty one what you'll have to do i don't know get, that i just ordered a forty one and a forty six mind out anth yeah i thought i might have to put another stitch in that to keep that on no, don't just thread it through don't yeah alright, alright, you nearly knocked it off again now look that'll be a three year old wouldn't it? sort of about three, two or three two or three yeah turn it up don't do that, that's charlotte's hair mm do you suppose that's supposed to be dead straight that or twisted? i think it's meant to be twisted mm mummy mm want aaron down now, red there that's it mm so i didn't know anybody and i thought of well, you know well there's sian, they probably want one the same for nicola, jill er i can still order them, i mean if you want to take it around, you can take it and mm it's only seven, well it's seven pounds, forty nine p exactly mm and it was fourteen ninety nine in town so i thought well, sales out the old book yeah, i can't even think of any nurses at the hospital, louise her little one's three but she's more like a five year old yeah, charlotte you're not putting that on the walls no well then erm there's a little bit on there well don't wendy but her one's four see no she's five now mm, just got to go and sort them out, hang on i'm coming up, i don't know why you didn't go in the downstairs toilet, it would of been easier for me then wouldn't it? what, make sure no one gets that plate, i'll do anthony one, shall we? eh? he can play in your room, don't go and pull all your stuff out no leave him aaron, aaron i'd they were, they were down from six leave him he's got the strops sixteen nineteen nine down from go and shut up, go and shut that, my bedroom door please, i'd leave him, ah? sixteen nineteen nine they were what's that? oh it was sixteen nineteen nine were they? mm i wonder why they reduced them then, if they put them in the new catalogue, oh there's a slight difference ain't there, there's no bow mm, i don't like the bow no i don't, it's the wrong colour innit? mm, mm oh sixteen ninety nine to seven fifty, it's cheap isn't it? yeah, yeah you don't know how old i am do you? course i do how then? having a strop out there is he? you're four and a half no i four you're four and a half i be four i'm not four and a half am i mum? i don't know i'm not bothered you're four and four months nearly four and a half no i four i said not four and a month i'm four four and four months four and four it's going really quick innit, when i keep thinking about it when they go back after half term not four mum they've got six weeks exactly until easter nearly four mum and then when they break up for easter and it's only sort of like whatever it is from now until september no, no, no, no mm aaron, aaron er and after the holiday she'll be going to school, it's frightening yeah, that, what, just a quick look through here, they've got loads of dressy things for girls, not for boys though put the crayon back in, do you want to watch chip and dale? er there isn't nowhere really though is there? apart, i mean whatever you get for boys it's the same, which is in different colours, bow ties and shirts that fit innit? can we watch chip and dale mum? yeah if you want to yeah put the, hang on a minute our exercises tape was in there yeah i watch the chippendales we were playing, we were doing our exercises, doing our exercises if you've got the chippendales' tape yeah mum does this, should, i don't know if this needs to be rewound let's have a look see if it's been rewound, yeah, mm actually you might not have to on that, that might just be there, oh dear he's throwing a strop up there mm for some unknown reason no is it worth rewinding it charlotte? oh no just leave out the bit where it was because if i don't you won't know what's happened will you? it, it a in a minute, yeah, there nearly there aaron where's the prince, get into this pencil go and get it please please put that back in can you for me aaron i've got to remember actually to get some birthday cards this week some time mm give me dad's to his yet coming over sunday at last when's, when's his birthday? sunday oh it is sunday can you pass me a brown one? well while you're there you can give them to him can't you? yeah pass me, pass me a brown one i didn't go this, this weekend cos i won't see him wednesday pass me a brown one birthday and erm he said well yeah, that's what i want that one you picking up one let's ask him if he wants to come over for dinner cos we don't have dinner until half four anyway yes give it to me yes so erm, yesterday he had dinner round joyce's, he said he'll come round a bit early and but we eat, we do it anyway so i don't like them a little bit can't you? i mean if you left your dinner another half hour say till five yeah he might come anyway yeah oh yes, do the blue sky then i do purple, what i thought you wanted to do a blue sky? oh look he's magic, he they've got some quite good stuff in there mm and they're not badly priced, i like the furniture, i like that little cabin bed in there as well yeah i thought that might look quite nice for madam, see my two only ever had cheap beds to start with anyway, i knew that i'd get them better ones later on yeah you know, erm you go like this, see and like helen, well helen said why don't you wait until you move, and i said well that might not be all that, you know you can do this sky the way things are going that could be years yeah erm no not that bit, do the sky blue, now we're gonna have erm er, erm now we have a have a blue, blue one i give this, this isn't purple one that's a brown one which is the cover for these? what on the same page? oh i don't know, i think it's on the same page as use the brown somewhere yeah do a brown hat yeah, yeah similar to aaron's maybe which colour now? yeah it's got three chest of drawers at the end bit and i'll do this, look and finish the snow and sliding cupboard underneath the bed yeah and a couple of wardrobe as well, red and white yeah, it's not a bad price yes i quite like yeah you see she can have something like that look it's your mummy, mum how do you think of that mm we've finished this snowman, mum look, mum look we've finished this snowman and they're not a bad price for all that, you see and i'd get rid of her wardrobes that she's got mum look we've finished this snowman oh yeah , and i quite like that, but if i had that, i'd like to i wouldn't be tempted to decorate his room we did, we finished off all the snowman haven't we? in wallpaper i'd do, i could make that's what we're doing in their room just one colour and put a border around it a very, very, very, very long, long, long, long i mean that is really nice that, they want thirty five quid for the headboard mm i'd want the wall paper and everything i, i, i do you know the lamp, the rug, it's really nice, but where's that, did you see that black furniture, oh i think that was at the front i quite like that for the boys bedroom as well with the bed set in you know, don't know whatever colour you have, and you colour nice mummy, mum, mum yeah you know mum you know you buy all that and what's the matter? mum, mum what? but i still think mm i still think they've got a lot of choice in there compared to the big one, i always think they've i think my, to do it a little bit harder for one of those pillow cases i won't pay that mm, no i did notice in that they sell, sell erm cushion covers with the sofas cushion covers with the sofas mm did you see them? i think i did, i thought about that but i can't afford to do it at the moment there look see you can get the, the l ones the double seat ones and the little ones look now i done the blue sky we've got to do yeah if you that's what we need you order the colour i'd, i'd have the plain it's better in the plain but do, do the i know what you do is you order the colour and it, where is it k, you order the colour and they surprise yeah you with the design yeah you see but i'd want floral anyway to go with one of them yeah, well i've got floral, i'd rather have the plain yeah but i don't think it mm no those, those, those are no i mean all those are you see i, what i'll then do is get cushion covers for the cushion and get like the net ones these ones i wanna do mm and go over yeah oh yeah you can colour that bit if you like i quite like plain but they're the wrong colour cos that's what it looks like it's a snowball to me it looks alright but then they're half way up but you can colour it if you like mm and i'd rather make it, it went all the way up to there yeah mine normally that well yeah mine only, mine only you do that there like that aren't they? yeah yeah alright yeah the rest of oh what's the matter? what's the matter? ah, ah, what's a matter little fellow? can you hear that other one up there moaning alright then aaron he's not coming down yet, he won't i mean there's quite good, there's some good stuff in there when you think that should be in the big catalogue really shouldn't yeah it? yes, i mean they do do some of this in the big catalogue i had a look i ain't noticed, maybe i ain't looked yes pencil and some bananas what's the matter? i didn't it, i'm mummy's er let, let jordan play with it babe cos he's getting upset now look, i think we'd better put a dry bib on you as well, i think we've got one in here, oh we've got one in yeah in the kitchen ain't we? no i thought there was another bib in here, i'll have to go and get you one out of the kitchen mate oh yes we have, yes we have baby having that that bib on yes that one says thursday and this one says friday, but it's monday isn't it? oh dear i he's making a lot of noise for a little boy isn't he? i think half his trouble is weekend yeah oh nanny i weren't gonna see my mum saturday, but she broke down saturday night yeah coming to andover to go up through mummy chigworth to see the mummy yeah mum cos if they got mum so they were stuck here to half eleven, so what ? got these right, well go away then does he keep pestering you? mm mm, don't keep pestering your mother of course we went to bed late last night as well yeah right he's alright, i didn't get no hassles about like, that, no matter how many hours she's awake she never grumbles of being tired oh oh no this one is a mummy i've got a police one mm you have haven't you? what's he got? a police car a police car, i thought he said bleed right, have you got anything in that felt tip charlotte? i haven't, it, get any on my trousers, i was licking you better not get it on the furniture as well, keep it away from the furniture, now put it on the paper or else don't use it right done, done it mum, i done it right didn't put it on the sofa oh dear me oh he's still making a noise up there mm i don't know, even know what he's throwing a tantrum over he said no charlotte watch that pen and get it out your mouth now either use it or put the lid on it and put it away. i'm using it, it's just don't you want to watch this video aaron? yeah well watch it then oh i didn't is want chip and dale on noise, you didn't want chip and dale tape on i did you did, oh yes, you want to choose another film? yeah he wants to choose another film oh does he? no his problem is he goes to bed at eight and he still get up at seven mm let him a do mummy, let him what is it? dennis dennis the menace, i want dennis the menace on mum there's dennis the menace upstairs do you know how to work it? i do it come here dennis the menace, dennis jelly boy put the tape in then aaron and i'll press, there i'll fast forward it, no you've got it, you've got it, no you haven't got it round the right way look at it, you know which way to put it in there, that's it. i think i cannot use this felt tip that's it come away from it aaron don't touch any buttons i'd better not use this felt tip no yeah come away, that's it i'd better not use this felt tip aagh, oh dear me what you doing? i'm tired and hungry your mum hasn't had dinner yet , put him up and dress and i thought i'm not gonna hang around doing something for dinner should of got something down town, that's what i usually do yeah should of done if i was in there i've got something for tea for tonight, i never thought of about getting what you gonna do? anything like i usually do i'm just gonna sort that little boy out what's the magic word when you want something? ta, mummy do you? yeah mm what does he say when he wants something? yes i need a drink please, ta oh there you watch this yeah get me the box for this one then i don't know then mum will you get me a drink? no yeah why not? your mum's, your mum's getting one in a minute you want a drink? yes, is that you get aaron's drink and my mum will get my drink i, i, in that here what, do you want apple the same as me? yeah let see what's in there, oh apple watch it, put the top on the felt tip charlotte when you're not using it otherwise you'll get it all over you, you get it over er everything else aaron mummy that's a doggy mum, mum he said he's too, too, too, too, too big doesn't he? i'm not getting any eat put a bit in er anthony out , what you on about oh what a lot of noise over nothing, weren't it? i shouldn't use pens should i? what you done now? oh little bit over here show me no show me no you're not gonna be able to brush it off, i'm gonna see it anyway i won't wear them, it's gone now not i think it's gone she couldn't of got any on then only a little bit oh, i remember when i was a kid getting in trouble where i can't see any, it's gone , where gone, where is it gone you show me? oh, oh mummy's tired , how many times have i told you not to have the pen near the furniture though young lady. yeah i just told her to put the top on the pen when she was having a drink, because she had the pen in her hand mm and she was having her drink at the same time which is why i'm not so worried about replacing cushion covers with the it doesn't matter to be honest i did put it on, when i had a drink and then i took it off again yeah i mean you get to this stage where a certain age you can say no you're not having it because they've got to start to grow up at some point and she likes using the felt tips and she's usually not too bad with them yeah but she tends like you say forget what she's doing and mm she'll sit down with perhaps a pen in her hand and then go up and mm you can't stop them from using everything in time yeah humpty dumpty sat on the wall, humpty dumpty had a great fall all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put humpty together again that's right i know it oh crikey, oh dear did you get to basingstoke saturday? humpty dumpty sat on well we went over my mum and dad's er you didn't get round pam's? no did you go up in the car the other week when you was gonna go? no you didn't get up there i wanna see pat see if she'll look after aaron on friday night, but gary says he doesn't want tim and lorraine having him cos they smoke like a chimney yeah i mean we go round on a saturday night and we come out stinking of smoke, cos they smoke one after another yeah and gary says he doesn't want them going round there so i said well i'll ask your mum if she will then i can what if you've chosen lorraine though? i, i tell them that erm pat offered, i'll just tell them straight to their face mm that, that pat's having him, so erm, what i'll erm what, what we'll do then we can leave duke over there and then i catch the, the train straight from work mm and we can go in when gary's finished at two it'll be the set at half past two yeah so and not only that if gary meets me up the train station we can go straight into town on our own, leave him with pat. that's it yeah, it's not very easy walking around looking at things when you've got the kids tagging along with you and man all i don't mind i mean they always wanna run off with, one you've got to hold his hand or carry them i ask mummy said you can have it or something, you know mum, mum me and aaron want some apple apple? yeah apple drink oh you want some apple do you? can i have some hot apple? no not with all the children around darling, in case it gets spilt coke then we're running out of apple aren't we? i've got to get some more, do you want a drink? so you've got all your quotes in now for your furniture then? yeah oh put that back on aaron put that back on aaron cos i might need that to send it back he's always taking labels off i need that back on there put it back on you gonna stick it back on for me? thank you, that's it there yeah that'll do, so long as it's on there good boy, so what one have you decided to go with then? well it's all down to gary now, is, i mean he still hasn't said yes or no or anything, it, but it, if we go for any of them it'll be mm the one that came out first thing wednesday morning. they want, from the whole of the bedroom, from the alcove where we want the sliding wardrobes with erm single wardrobe, over the head surrounds mm with two, three drawer chests and then another wardrobe right up to the window erm sixteen ninety four yeah that's not bad then no that's not bad no, is it? yeah so we'll go for that i think he's just like tony, he'll say alright then get it done, get it sorted out and tony will say well we can't really afford it now or no i've change me mind now i don't think, you know it's a bit they, i mean these people they even do interest free credit yeah over a year which i worked it out it'll be a hundred and forty one quid a month yeah so erm, i mean it's all down to gary, i mean if he wants his new computer, i said to him i said you're better off getting you know extra three or four grand on the mortgage yeah and then he can get the computer he wants without moaning and then can get everything done in the bedroom without worrying about it that's it and it, it'll only be, you know, that extra twenty quid on the mortgage a month yeah so erm, oh i let him sort it all out that's it, the trouble is he's not enthusiasm cos you sort of like, if you like me you get all your hopes up you want oh yeah that's, that's gonna happen and the fellows go along with it like when tony first decided to move and that i thought oh great he's found a place back in basingstoke you know, we went and looked at them and everything and he turns round and changes his mind or he's in the, you know he's worried or nervous well what i said to gary i said when was the last time i ever wanted anything er and i never want for anything and i said when, i said with you if you want something you get it that's it that's how he's been brought up, if he wants something he gets it oh same with tony yeah yeah yeah which is why i said to him that yeah he can have a new computer, he can get what he, you know what he wants as long as i get my bedroom done that's it yeah i've never wanted for anything the thing is though they, they look at it, they always look at it that erm, they earn the money so they can go out and get it, you know, women aren't entitled to anything, they're just at home to look after the children mm what's the matter shall i do your other bottle for you? i mean if i knew for the fact that i was gonna get this job at the hospital i'd pay for it yeah still you haven't even applied for that yet have you? no cos they haven't put it out yet oh, yeah let me go and make some drinks then, oh dear little man yeah if i knew some facts that i had a job to go to, i'd pay for it myself yeah, jump down a minute anthy no yes because i've got to get drinks and i've got to put jordan in his cot for a little while no he'll have an hour no look anthony no that's the sort of price that gary was looking for to start with yeah no about fifteen hundred don't want to i mean it'll save on the wallpaper as well that's it yeah we'll , we'll only have two walls to do oh big bib mm you come up with me won't have so much carpet to get that's right, yeah, come on you tired man let's get the others a drink mm, mm, i want a drink stop whingeing or he won't go to sleep and then i can't look after you whinge bag mum an egg mm i'm tired, mummy tired, mummy mm mummy funny noise, look i'll pick all these up and he won't go to sleep yeah, what is it quarter to three? yeah, but by the time mum i can't hear sshh just leave him with his alarm on no, you leave it, if he doesn't go to sleep he can come back down so i've done nothing today, i haven't even done one load of washing i can't hear the telly i've got a whole basketful today, i just left it left it yeah i can't hear oh shut up er charlotte it's on ruddy video, you can watch it any time, anyway you're colouring do you know what gary yesterday at about nine o'clock he fancied a pizza, he said that he fancied a pizza, er aaron come on in, pizza and erm garlic bread to go with it, well i thought i'm going in town so he's got that for tonight now i'll get you a drink in a minute aaron hang on mummy is that argos, nine ninety nine, and it's got removable cov cover that's what i want for aaron for his room that's the cheapest yeah in my catalogue they're fourteen ninety nine but, do you, what an ordinary bean bag bean bag? yeah and erm i wanna get one of these er yeah, that's a proper dog one and they said that'll take up to a size of a labrador that's why i got it, erm but the cover's removable and have you ever seen any of them or not? no i'd like to well why not men go to the bleeding, er well it's like i've never been to a proper hen night, gary's been to a, a stag night, with female strippers, i'd like to go to a stag, er a hen night mm oh dear oh dear me i'm gonna pretend i'm the little baby and you pretend your hello out, what did i tell you mummy i don't care what you're gonna say go out i wanna don't let him in again, out if you wouldn't of let him that wouldn't of happened then don't let him in and don't be such a wimp you're alright go and get no well get in here and stay in here then then get out go and tell him off then no well shut up and let me shut the door no anthony it out erm yeah and then when alex knocks who will come through barking? now get out the way no right you get in there play me up no that's alex right, alex is here now, you going out? go on then, right she can hear and say how naughty you are, horrible there she is you'd better be quiet, don't let boo in, come on in then aaron don't let boo in alright go out there, go on you coming in or you staying out? dog knocked him over didn't he, then you hit your head on your bike oh dear have you had a good day? not really oh dear why's that? washing dishes not much fun hopefully something better will come along they've got to be, not a growing dead come here and shut up no well get off then no, no, stop yeah mummy shut up anthony what? can i have a video on? no not now you don't watch them aaron, you put them on and disappear yeah i want this one no, go on, go out and play he had a bottle after you'd went oh did he? yeah one whole bottle, erm i wouldn't go near him aaron he's not in a very good mood mum go and play with charlotte outside mm right then he went down, then he got up and had his lunch about one oh he's humpy just now no i just took him up oh mum i want to come back in oh alright, boo go and lay down, boo, out, lay down then i didn't see baby jordan he's asleep he's sleeping yeah he ate all his lunch and his yoghurt and his yeah changed a dirty nappy i try getting a bit half two, i took him up at twenty to by the time i came down it was quarter to three, he was really rubbing his eyes look what mummy let me have, look what i've but he did go to sleep about then very good so he had two dirty bibs which are in there come let's go up there and make some, come on erm charlotte, charlotte, alex is talking i was tidying up a whole bowl of clean water over his nappy so if you wonder why i got through an extra nappy cos it wasn't to wear after was it? mum i told you to get me a drink there was it, there was two in there wasn't there? there was i think two in there yeah so i got one out did you have enough? yeah, i had enough i changed him i told you to get me a drink well i'll get it in a minute i'm talking now who's is that drink? that's aaron's i'm sure he won't mind if you have a little bit no alright then i want my own yeah i had enough, but it was just a waste of a nappy mummy i'm too hot take your jumper off then, do you want your jumper off? i know the other i know this morning it's, i changed his nappy and i like always have a bottle of you know those you know just to wipe him down and everything in the morning, he just grabbed that and i could see this thing tipping and i went oh god no, please, because that could of been the duvet, the duvet covers yeah the sheets, the mattress yeah everything would be absolutely soaking, and i'd try and get it off of him but he holds on to it so tight yeah he just won't let go yeah i know he does hold on to things really tight mm it was in here it was sort of like, he'd been niggly all day, he was tired, he sort of like knocked it over with his foot, and of course it went straight over the dry nappy that was laid out on the floor ready to put under him, i said oh that nappy you do the okey cokey and you turn around that's what it's all about oh do you have to sing and give us all a headache where's you do the okey cokey and you turn around that's what it's all about, you put your whole self in, in out, in out shake it boo under all about you do the okey cokey go and lay down and you turn around under that's what it's all about charlotte we're all trying to talk, get up there and sing if you want to sing. you wanna go outside? mm, mm go and let him out go boo outside go on boo out, do something dog, go and lay down and have a bark come on then is he gone? oh charlotte's trying to lean against him and push him out, no he's settled for under the table now, now leave him charlotte he can lay under the table, he's out the way over there oh shut up you're a whinge bag anthy aaron's like that in the morning yeah, boys are terrible threaten to take him home, once take leave him him home we, we, i was ready, i wanted to get to town by ten o'clock, ten to twelve we left, he wouldn't get dressed found him so i said what, aaron's playing with the dog aaron no, no leave him got myself ready i got my coat on and i said i'll see you later boo, boo, boo you're not going without me i said you'd better hurry up and get bloody dressed then hadn't you? shut the door aaron and ten to twelve we got out the door, oh i was just glad to get out, you know walking a bit of peace and quiet just, i could of strangled him, little git do you walk with him or do you put him in a baby walker? i, when, when we go down to playschool i walk but because it takes what fifteen minutes to walk into town i put him in the pushchair yeah it's less hassle yeah otherwise it'll take about, over half an hour you get down side then by the time you've walked round yeah and they're absolutely shattered and it's windy and mm you what you like to go in the pushchair don't you? no, i don't you was in a bad mood yesterday afternoon in a minute gary brought him up the hospital to meet me he wouldn't speak to any of the nurses anthy? like this, he wouldn't like up i tell you what make the most of it while he's a baby cos when they get like this oh yeah cor i haven't got the patience i haven't got the patience i tell you i, i don't know how you do it well it must be the age difference yeah yeah in having said that you're the same age as me i know so mm i'm just used to it i told you to get me a drink you ah ah by the time i hope to four years no, no you don't speak to me like that please and thank you yes and i said i would in a minute darling alright? get your bum up aaron, aaron you drive me round the bend? you make me cross? no do you? no yes you do aaron oh god no i don't you'll be alright, once he, once he starts doing it anyway you'll get to know how to right, to, i, i haven't honestly i've got no patience whatsoever, terrible i'm going to get my own drink now sometimes i quiver to get a drop of milk yeah or cos i only speak don't you look at me like that, i'm gonna have some apple fighting talk you obvious to be naughty yeah she'll be in trouble won't she, she often gets her own drinks anyway, she sort of like, she's at that age she can, it's only when they get out there together mm and she'll go and get the milk out and say i've just got myself a glass of milk mum, oh right, okay not even aware that she's gone out to the fridge you know, fair enough we say ah, you don't do you? no he was good yesterday though at the pictures, we took them out and they were like really good, we brought all the cartons home didn't we? cos they've got like you know bugs bunny on all the cartons up there oh have they? and the warner brothers bugs bunny and the popcorn, you go and get your popcorn dish out of thing, show alex how much popcorn we bought, i mean you go up there and it's not like it used to be years ago a little bale of popcorn they sell them in huge great big cartons up there yeah you know it's either salted popcorn or the sweet popcorn, i couldn't eat that amount of salt, it is chock-a-block full up with popcorn oh look at that yes, the whole thing was like a, a thing full of with popcorn, show alex then mm i can't eat that was medium popcorn there's small and large god there was, the big one is like this and i'm not kidding you. groups go up there and they pay the money for it and they put it in the middle while you're waiting for the film, it's all carpeted and you can watch all the monitors and they just sit down this huge tub of popcorn they had an op how much are they? well that was on offer this week actually, that plus a great big bag of minstrels i think was two, two fifty five that's not bad is it? erm, erm normally they start at one thirty and they can go up to about three or four pound a great big tub. we went in and we paid seven pounds for me and my mum to get in, we didn't pay for the kids cos if they know they're gonna sit on your lap, they get in there for nothing, but once we get in there we give them their own chair anyway, providing you go in like it's not in the first week, the following week when the show is quieter and not so many people going mm erm, but it cost seven pounds for me and mum no in there to get in, three fifty each and then we paid another six pound, ten p and for that we had popcorn, minstrels, one large coke, a lot bigger than that and two small ones, and of course everything's got like all this on mm so the kids like to bring it home, stick in the playschool bag, show them at playschool, actually they didn't show them, he puts it on his head as a hat i haven't got the slightest idea what the kids are doing up there they're sweet aren't they? yeah, which is why i only take them once every so often which is why i only have the two because it means i can take them, you know if you've got a family of four kids or something it's a bit expensive it gets a bit yeah, which is why i'm gonna stick with two, i mean now they want to go and see peter pan next, when that comes down which will be what probably a month, about once every couple of months they'll go or once a month mm but we do if we look out when we see it coming down i save a couple of quid up each week that, then i've got the money again mm yeah yeah let's have a look at that one, that's the large coke mm mm me and my mum bought one of those and we had that between us and we bought one of those each for the kids, even though she swindled sweets in her bag, we started taking sweets in the bag and bottles of drink, but that wasn't the same they wanted a cartoon cup, so we when we got up there, and next time we it's good to go there isn't it? yeah, the thing is though, the daft thing is there is nothing small up there no it's all big boxes of wine gums, fruit gums, big box, packet of minstrels there are no small sweets for children at all mummy that's bugs bunny yes i know you go into the pick and mix and seventy five p a quarter, so you get next to nothing in the bottom of the bag bye, bye bunny you know, but it's all these jelly sweets, you know choosing different jelly, jelly snakes and things, my two aren't into them aaron well it is anthony's can you give it back please yeah i wouldn't run off with that mate got bunny on it yes i know it's bugs bunny on it and you've got a bugs bunny tape haven't you? i've got bug bunny tape yeah, they got, they've got a massive bugs bunny sitting up over the sweet counter as you go in yeah absolutely massive it is, yeah mummy is it, they're gonna take this to playschool so you'll probably see it down there, they don't decide to keep them anyway, there's the other one there who in there it's a good outing out though mum i've, i sshh, come in here, come in here and shut the door and i who, who left the door open out there? go and shut it for me erm lewis aaron, erm sorry what, what was in here? mm just things like erm black penny sweets you get oh right like little jellies, what else did you have in here? oh little jelly shaped bears didn't you? yeah, and a erm and a snake and jelly snake you got didn't you? yeah there's all this jelly stuff and they get fed up with that mm we got some but where if they sold little packets of sweets mm mummy opal fruits and things like that i could of got them that but of course a great big bag of minstrels, you couldn't just let them rummage through that, so what i done i took a couple of handfuls out and put them in here yeah with their jellies look yeah but i mean it's seventy five p a quarter a it's awfully dear one, two what? er a friend of ours was up there a and she had her what comes after two? quite two happy in the bottom of the bag and it came to one fifty like you get caught out what come's after two? once you've put it in your bag you can't put it back three three you know it you know it it's, you can put it in but you can't put it back with your fingers you don't realize it when you go up and get it and you ain't got enough one, two, three, four money you're stuck aren't you? yeah what comes after three aaron? but apart from that pick and mix they don't do nothing else in small things what come's after three aaron? no they hadn't salt me popcorn so i complained one, two, you count, one, two, three, four, don't it funny i've got a sweet tooth when it comes to like chocolates and things like them mm but popcorn so what, what i do like and i haven't bought any for a, for weeks i must admit you know them pink erm what they called er one, two, four me got shrimps shrimps in woolies me er put it in there ah mum and i like to eat erm the banana ones yeah i like the old flying saucers with the sherbet i had popcorn there eaten them down there yeah i like, i like them shrimp they melt in your mouth mm yeah you show alex how you wear that as a hat then alex, alex put your drink up before it spills somewhere and also had interest last week about two minutes i sat down i was just sitting comfortable anthony i got she says bye alex he wants to show you something what then is to that? we have no don't crush it, don't crush it i mean how, i was just getting comfortable and i thought oh god are you ready then? mm and he said yeah your i must admit that i chew a lot of gum mm you know like sugar free gum i've yeah always got chewing gum on me yeah so that i can chew chewing gum always makes me hungry right here's your, here's your stick erm, er it, it depends which one it is they say cos it makes your stomach think it's gonna get food oh no he yeah and it's erm saliva and everything too yeah so i daren't eat chewing gum if i'm on a diet oh you don't need to no but i oh i do sometimes, but today i'm not eating much but i'm not fat oh i dropped you will you be quiet for goodness sake i can't hear myself think da, da, de, da sometimes i do be, i can put on weight really fast i can in the morning charlotte and i pig out at work right now put these up and i don't have yum, yum yeah mum, mum don't put up there i tell you what, what we bought up there you know we could of bought at least six bottles of coke aagh two litre bottles of coke what we paid to go in er i mean what we paid forty seven, seven pound, ten p oh be careful aaron but still like mum says it's an afternoon out so well i'm a bit of actually i tend to waste money cos i thought i'd sit here and moan about taking them out the cost of it, but then i considered spending a hundred pound on a bed that he probably doesn't even need, it's daft really innit? yeah, it is yeah aagh, aagh put your nose into it there don't aggravate your brother that'll be nice and smart won't it? it's getting your priorities right isn't it? yeah yeah, but then i think well yeah you can moan about taking them out but that six oh no you have broken down but nothing to show for it fetch the hat quickly you don't have to shout in my earhole did you want, did you have, do you want another aaron? he's got one up there oh he's got one, do you want one charlotte? erm yeah dad'll come home tonight and say who's eaten all the custard creams then, he loves custard creams yeah and me ate them all don't talk with your mouth full, last two there so do you think you'll get anything happen thursday then or don't you honestly know, just ask them i honestly don't know , when i spoke to her this morning she said she hasn't erm for a, for a few weeks now she hasn't placed anybody er a my bic, bic me put the bag on it really does you shan't mum, mum put a bag on, i wanna put a bag on are you only up here till wednesday then? i put bag on no yes no sshh aaron oh big mouth i wanna put i wanna put bag on the m four she went and i wanna put bag on yeah it's gotta rewind, it's only going on quietly though yeah erm boo go and lay down mummy eat my cream you can wear your hat for bag it's an awful day but i mean it's still money at the end of the road that's right isn't it? yes, charlotte be careful i thought you was gonna say have your veins done is a normal job i me ate my cream you gonna have yours done pauline? me ate my me ate my cream oh shut up i've got bad veins yeah oh, oh dear just in my go on in a biting it a are my, my right leg, but mm they, they play me up every now and then yeah yeah i've got one behind this knee here mm and i got that doing my eight how position oh yeah yeah and that was out standing fifteen hours a day mm yeah and it's never got really bad, the only time it got bad was yeah then it really stuck out yeah but it's not bad enough to have it no mine's, mine's not bad enough it's only just very small yeah it's only that big yeah and mine's all day, from sort of there and there or there, there oh no you can see, it's not as, it's not that bad watch your fingers aaron in or out, shut the door but i, i have pain down the leg every now and then erm aaron come in shut the door cos your fingers i keep getting same leg, so erm, see gary moans at me that i, he says that i eat too much erm salt, now if i was to eat that much salt i wouldn't get cramp mm but i still get cramp, and that, and the doctor said to me he said all that i can do is when you get the pain just rest it, how can you rest with a three year old? he got a oh dear this is only going on very quietly no loud no it's not going on loud charlotte, i do not want to be deafened by michael jackson thank you, i think that's quite loud enough i think you're in the wrong place there mm i think you're in the wrong place yeah, michael jackson band eat your biscuits do you, do either of you know of any really good, good car boot sales? never go to them, no i put these up for anthony give them here, give it erm i know that they hold one every sunday in the football do as you're told er come away from that aaron, what? well get out the way then i can't get it if you're there try to get rid of all my baby stuff and, so what i'm going to do is advertise in the paper and then yeah what does he want? and erm i just want to get rid of it, get it out the way yeah i've got all my stuff up i think you'll find in the loft yeah and erm, the, everyone advertising got the basic, i mean yeah don't i think you'll find, i don't know whether it is but mum, my mum went to a car boot sale once and they weren't selling nothing over ten pounds, so the car boot sales don't charlotte only go up to certain, yeah, though people can't afford to go to them i was gonna say how about putting it in a shop window? yeah, well i was gonna, thing is though don't play with the sewing box same for me is yeah don't play in the sewing box car boot sale, there's other bits and bobs i want to get rid of yeah yeah no, no aaron don't get on the table i've got, i've got to sort out all of aaron's stuff get rid of that and that can go towards my new bedroom and don't stand on his feet. i'm thinking of getting my bedroom done, getting a fitted bedroom, we just thought well we can't afford to move mm and aaron get up, we've, we've only got a very small bedroom so we might as well make the most of it, we've had quotes and all that and erm, look not the cheapest but not the exp the most expensive erm expensive yeah but something that's got five year guarantee on it erm, what did we work out? three sixteen, sixteen hundred and ninety four mm which isn't too bad no er and that's getting a third two walls and erm an alcove with erm two glass sliding doors and then erm single wardrobe and you've got the show mum around with the erm top boxes and two, three drawer units put it back and another erm single wardrobe yeah and that goes right up to the window yeah, and the time that, we had seven firms stand up not on me not on me and they wanted sort of three thousand quid i want a cuddle you can have a cuddle but just and there's no way we can afford that yeah it's bad enough you know sort of being fifteen hundred, but, you know that, that that's what we were looking at to start with yeah so erm no we're not putting any more films on aaron cartoons are on in a minute and that yeah, aaron you pig no that's naughty you've got small feet ain't you, you look like a size four a two you're a two? you know somebody's got smaller feet than you pauline i've only got a five yeah, well i'm five well five's average yeah and i'm only four these are a three, two, my actual shoe aaron foot size is a two, they usually end up in a three erm in flat shoes like this for the width i've got very big feet aaron and if it's high heels, generally go and lay down yeah it doesn't make any aaron so my shoes are too big for me lay down yeah i know, these are a five but i've got my, i've got my, my but erm, taught colour boots and they're a six but the biggest i buy is a, is a five they're a three and erm that's for the width mm mum, ma yeah, amazing what i don't get nothing for i get a, i get a six for my width, see i have great big bones that used to stick out there, see the scar? yeah mummy went into hospital and had didn't i? yeah yeah i had the bones broke reset and that's how i met up with bleeding tony he came to visit me meeting a friend, it's only me he said oh go round and see this girl i know and she was related to my best mate, it's a complicated story and we sort of went from there really go, go many years ago mm, mm i kept thinking to myself i don't bloody want this bloody operation i might have picture half way round the world aaron, aaron oh dear mustn't complain, no children aaron give that back to anthony now, now i was playing no i saw anthony with it just now mm, mm here give it to me aaron give it to alex come come on, we've got to all get home, mummy hasn't done all the washing yet, yeah come here, let's smile you can leave them if you want come on we've got to do dinner, got to get our shopping home mummy me, me go and put it in the bin, one, two, oh aaron do it though i've got so much to do now, i've left it all sharpening, where they sharpening down there? there's a pencil ha do what? so what do you want to do take that little dress or not? erm if you don't want to just leave it and i just no i just leave it and i'll have a think of who's got, you know a two year old, a two, three year old, can't think of anyone no er come on please come on a j not aaron oh look, i'm going home now mum oh where's me sat here you want mm er come here, come here aaron you know them sweets that we've got in our be , in my pocket? yeah you can have one in a minute if you hurry up and get up, right i'll leave you here cos i'm going home, i'm not i want a mint did i kick you? i haven't got any mints, we haven't had any of those for ages me got them buttons here are, otherwise you'll stay here, come on i'm not gonna muck about, come on here's going to do come on up i'm not taking you home in a stroppy mood aaron we left home in a a stroppy mood no aaron why you going home in a stroppy mood? not oh mum yeah, boo, boo you i'm charlotte, you know my name don't you? oh who's that, is that you? no, er, boo, boo do you wanna walk home or go in the pushchair? i walk home you're gonna walk home, fair enough, come here and get your hat on, come here these two bibs are very wet up here where he's been dribbling and aaron there's some food in there darling? mum yeah i fed him, i didn't starve him aaron no we'll clear up in a minute who's on telly when we get home? we'll put these back in here cos we know they're who's on telly today, timmy mallet timmy mallet, timmy mallet, timmy mallet hiya darling, hiya no i was really surprised cos he hasn't been drinking his juice, and that went down timmy mallet, timmy mallet i say that was naughty i normally wash them up and i put it back in there don't worry i just that all the washing anyway here are quick tidy up, upstairs in the bathroom wash me hair, done that this morning i thought oh dear here look oh bye i done me exercises instead i'll only getting my to stop whingeing, don't push the pushchair, it'll topple back one happy little fellow then , who's a happy little fellow? aaron if it topples back and, that's it i'm smacking you, come in here he's usually quite good when he wakes up isn't he? i haven't touched him, i don't think i've had him any trouble ah aaron let's see if we can turn your head, oh dear it's a little bit big no, he they've actually been taken apart, and probe about saying school leaving age and that one yeah the kids spilt milk on this and i didn't realize and it all dried, stuck all the controls you know what tony's like, you know, can't you keep the kids away from the computer aaron typically that's like gary caught aaron on saturday changing the tapes over, said i didn't know he did that liar , er i don't mind them doing the video tapes over, but er remember when i was here that day and he was shoving them in and out washing to do you want a lift back? no that's alright are you sure? yeah, yeah, honestly walking keeps her fit she quite enjoys walking this one, i hate it i don't mind walking but it's i get the shopping charlotte no don't get pauline's shopping out, she's got all her pushchair organized i haven't had any i always thought you bring this over for breakfast i don't like walking full stop yeah, i, i find i like walking first of all it's gotta be warm, if it's cold mummy, mum i mean i walked to work every saturday and sunday no matter what the weather yeah, oh my god no, i, no i, i suppose what with aaron going to playschool i go out every day walking apart from thursday shall i open the door? yeah well you shouldn't of done it, it's very right as aaron's got the door out, open, he's got i'll let you out first right i shall see you later bye bye i'll just shut this door hello, hello right my two get in you haven't got coats on charlotte in now and shut the door oh shut the door now, bye charlotte right come on mr man come on you can put your i t v on in a minute i'm in got in now actually oh sorry oh sorry , go and knock you out there what? i got, oh that must be on, i think you can watch josie smith can't you? leave it turned down and you'll be able to see when it starts, yes, okay, you're a really good boy aren't you? you're a really good boy, yeah, take him upstairs and i thought oh, he could be mine this little one i don't think mummy would like that you know but he, he's at that age now where i could have another kid and look after it quite easily if i had one, but i don't wanna go through, not the pregnancy, but i don't want to go through all the babies and getting up in the night and, one that'll come out six months old be happy i'll be quite happy yeah, yeah because they say to play with, when they're babies you can't do nothing with them. but they sleep peace and quiet, ya well yeah, they can be boring as well can't they? yeah you know when you spend the night you know one popping in and looking after, i find that easier than just putting them down to sleep yeah i find them a constant worry when they're sleeping cos you're making sure whether they're still breathing never really bothered too much about that, and i've always been very like erm ooh, la, ha, ha, you think that's funny, er happy go lucky i don't think, i think if i was neurotic should be neurotic yeah do you know what i mean? and erm he's got really red rosy cheeks i know at the front it was the same yesterday, i don't know if it's his teeth again oh go on, what you doing? i noticed last night when i was bathing him and covered in his ears this one mum ma yeah mum ma, look what i've done he sat on it no leave your i noticed it, i thought it looked like a rash and i felt the side of it and it's just warm and i thought oh he, he must getting whatever you know, cos at first i thought he was hot in his cot and you know, but just he hasn't got none through yet though has he? there all there but he's not i tell you if one comes, they'll all come at once yeah i reckon they just want to start it, cos once they start getting through that's when they start getting wanting decent, wanting to eat more and i mean i make them clean theirs thoroughly, they're really good at doing them actually as well yeah mum i can't hear the telly no you don't need to get into that in the fridge anthony open your eyes and i'll put everything in the car yeah, you gonna come and put your coat on? oh he's chewing on mummy's scarf, so it'll definitely only be till wednesday till wednesday right, say right, right, right, shame i can't have you any more i shall miss you yeah yeah say that's not fair , say i shall miss you then won't i? say i really appreciate your time that's alright, don't worry right you've made a nice mess out there haven't you? mum ma i want them i want one of them right then charlie what you gonna sing for us? happy birthday to granddad go on then and me right you both gonna sing happy birthday to your granddad are you? alright then, stand there then, right, go on then, off you go, i'm listening what about the song have? just sing it happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear granddad, happy birthday to you happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear granddad, happy birthday to you well done, what you gonna sing for me next then? erm twinkle twinkle twinkle twinkle you wanna sing that one do you? twinkle, twinkle little star how i wonder what you are, up above the world so high like a diamond in the sky, twinkle, twinkle little star how i wonder what you are twinkle, twinkle little star how i wonder what you are, up above the world so high like a diamond in the sky, twinkle, twinkle little star how i wonder what you are very good, what about singing the ones you sing at playschool? jingle, jingle bells no what about the one, my mummy lives in this house? no jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way, oh what fun it is to ride in a one horse open sleigh jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way, oh what fun it is to ride in a one horse open sleigh i need to go to the toilet, you see go on then hurry up wait for me mummy i'm gonna sing what you gonna sing? erm, erm, erm, i be your in your house go on then you're my sister, you're my mum, mm, my daddy, you're my try singing without sweets in your mouth and try singing a bit louder, i might be able to hear you over here. how many live in our house, you're my sister, you're my mum, you're my daddy, you're my brother no , not bad, not bad how many are living in our house? well, but sing it with charlotte as well then how many people live in your house, how many people live in your house, one my father, two my mother, three my sister, four my brother, there's one more now let me see oh yes of course it must be me, how many people live in your house how many people live in your house, how many people live in your house, one my father, two my mother, three my sister, four my brother, there's one more now let me see oh yes of course it must be me, how many people live in your house well done the bear went over the mountain, the mountain, the mountain, the bear went over the mountain to see what he could see, it all that he could see is the other side of the mountain all that he could see is the other side of the mountain, the bear went over the mountain the other side of the mountain, the bear went over the mountain the mountain, the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, that's all that he could see erm, what about, what's that other one you learnt, the chicken one? yeah go on then. i don't know where it starts erm, five little chickens, five little chicks yeah, five and five, no, hide them round your back go on then five and five make ten, sitting on top of the mother hen with the mother hen with the mother hen start again, start again five and five makes ten, sitting on top with the mother hen five and five makes ten, sitting on top with the mother hen crackle, crackle, crackle what do i see ten little yellow chicks as fluffy as can be that's it, what's the matter? what's the matter darling? shall we sing, er mum what else shall we sing? erm, i don't know, what else, what other things do you learn at playschool then? erm how many people in your house erm, ah? some sausages, how many sausages? sausages? erm, yeah the oh i don't know how the end starts off and we haven't singed it properly, one, two, three, four, five, six, we have six,six sshh six sausages in a pan, one went pop and the other went bang went bang oh that's it, go on then, sing it, off you go, start again one went pop and the other no, no, in it, don't it start off three little sausages sizzling in the pan yeah go on then three little sausages sizzling in the pan one went pop and the other went bang bang yeah, then what happens, two little sausages yeah, i don't two little sausages in the pan, one went pop and the other went bang went bang one little sausages sitting in the pan, one went pop and the other went bang went bang five little sausages sitting in the pan, one went pop and the other went bang went bang oh really what else shall we learnt ant? oh how many, how hickory hickory dock go on then hickory, hickory dock, the mouse ran up the clock, the clock struck one, down the mouse run, hickory, tickery dock, tick tock tick tock insy winsy spider go on then insy winsy spider climb up the insy winsy spider climb up the spout and down no, insy winsy spider climbs the spider's web, i think that's how it goes the spider went up the spout is me, down come the rain and out come the sun, all the sun came out in the rain, insy winsy spider climbed up again well that weren't too bad, but not very good what, what else shall we do? mm there must be loads that you learn at playschool, what are they? oh, i want i'm just tidying up a bit while you're singing darling no we don't want baby getting them mm you can get them all out again in a minute the bear went over the mountain what else erm what other songs do you learn? i know what other songs i learn what? er hickory, hickory dock yeah, what about doing jack in the box? er, not me down yeah, jack in the box go on then yeah we wanna get down in our little box first go on then erm jack in the box, rest his no i can't sing it what is it? jack in the box, resting so still, will you come out yes i will yes i will yes i will what other one? go on then sit down and i'll sing it, and you have to do the jump up and do the yes i will, quick curl up, quick, quick, right,jack in the box, resting so still, will you come out ? yes i will yes i will yes i will , ah a jack in the box what else do we know? oh careful, i don't know, what other songs do you learn at school? hello darling no playschool what, playschool, yeah, what other things do we learn at playschool? erm erm , i know, the one you go like that i don't know that one, sing hi ho hi, ho, hi, ho it's off to work we go, we've a huff, huff, huff and a whin, whin, whin, hi, ho, hi, ho hi, ho, hi, ho it's off to work we go, we've a huff, huff, huff and a whin, whin, whin, hi, ho, hi, ho it's home from work we go we've a huff, huff, huff and a whin, whin, whin hi, ho, hi, ho it's off to work we go, we've a chuff, chuff, chuff and a whin, whin, whin, hi, ho, hi, ho, it's home from work we go what they doing? with a, with a chuff, chuff, chuff and a whin, whin, whin, hi, ho, hi, ho yes alright i think we've had enough of that one now, i think we know you know that one, don't we jordan, erm what other ones do you learn? i don't know well you're the ones that go to playschool i don't the one that goes i don't know one that you whistle in oh, i know what? if you really want to show yourself oh go on then where, what bit does it start off? i don't know, i'm not at playschool, i don't learn it i don't know, erm, jingle bel if you're happy and you know it yeah,if you're happy and you know it and you really want to show it right start from the beginning, if you're happy and you know it and you really want to show it clap your hands, if you're happy and you know it and really want to show stamp your feet or how ever it goes, go on then you do it. how you really want to know it stamp your feet if you really want to no, anthony will you stop banging on the radiator , no it's are you happy and, if you're happy and you know it clap your hands, if you're happy and you know it clap your hands we want to sing it if you're happy and you know it i know i want to sing it and you really want to show it mum, mum i want to sing it go on then if you're happy and you know it clap your hands, if you're happy and you know it clap your hands, if you happy and you know it and you really want to show it, if you're happy and you know it clap your hands if you happy and you know it stamp your feet, stamp your feet ah get off, get off,if you're happy and you know it stamp your feet, stamp your feet, if you're happy and you know it and you really want to show it happy, if you're happy and you know it stamp your feet, stamp the feet good now, now, we've still got a lot to do oh, go on then, mustn't stop you from working must we darling? no, mustn't stop them from working if you if you happy and you know it tip your head, but not your head, if you if you're happy and you know it do a four get off the radiator do a four very quietly if you sing it quietly you won't sing something properly if you're gonna sing i do again head and shoulders go on then do head and shoulders head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes, head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes, and eyes and ears and mouth and nose, head and shoulders, knees and toes, me and he, i have to do it a little bit faster a little bit faster then head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes, head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes, and eyes and ears and mouth and nose, head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes and eyes and ears and mouth and nose, head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes now it's really faster where karen beats us go on then really faster head and shoulders knees and this what i did start again then head and shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes and eyes and ears and mouth and nose head and shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes i beat you. now do it really quick, quick, ready go head and shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes, head and shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes and eyes and ears and mouth and nose, head and shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes oh dear all worn out now. me wanna sing hi ho again you wanna what? sing hi ho again oh, er watch where you're going there cos little one's there can i take this it's not that warm darling mummy undo your bottoms ones, that's right it's got poppers then mummy er, hello lovey, got poppers there mummy don't get them muddled up there, cos they look the same, aagh, put that bleeding pussy cat down ooh ah, ah, pull your trousers up, you're gonna sing hi, ho again are you? i put mine over here like that good girl hi, ho, hi, ho, hi, ho no, erm, start all again hi, ho, hi, ho it's off to work we go we've a huff, huff, huff and a whin, whin, whin hi, ho, hi, ho, it's home from work we go with a chuff, chuff, chuff and a whin, whin, whin hi, ho, hi, ho, it's off to work we go with a chuff, chuff, chuff and a whin, whin, whin hi, ho, hi, ho i think they're mad it's off to work we go we've a da, da, da, and a whin, whin, whin hi, ho, hi, ho, it's off to work we go oh we've a da, da, da they're mad my, my, this round my hand children hi, ho, hi, ho it's off to work we go with a chuff, chuff, chuff, whin, whin, whin, hi, ho, hi, ho it's home from work we go with a chuff, chuff, chuff, whin, whin, whin, hi, ho, hi, ho, it's off to work we go oh now then what's the matter, what's the matter? me wanna sing the lorry well you sing it again then me wanna sing the lorry you what? alright then you sing me wanna sing the lorry you wanna sing what? the lorry the lorry one yeah, me get my lorry oh hello beautiful oh you listening to their noise how many lorries can you count, how many lorries can you count? i know how many lorries you can count, shall i sing it to you? how many lorries can you count, how many lorries can you count they're making a lot of noise aren't they? how many lorries can you count lorries can you count , one, one, one, that's all we can count, all we one by big and stout, i clapped my hands, and i jump up jump up and turn around and i jump did jordan leave his dummy on the floor? oh no it's there no you haven't me wanna sing lorry again lorry and lorry, lorry how many lorries can you count mummy listen to us i'm listening, i'm listening how many lorries can you count, one, one, one, that's all we can count, why don't you jump instead of turning round are you sure you're not just making that one up? no, we are not are you sure about that? of course mum, mum i know, i know another charlotte you've knocked his dummy out and now i know another song about donald duck donald duck went up the hill stuck in the miney mo, down in the rain and was for, donald duck for erm, i know,insy winsy spider climb up the water spout, down came the rain and washed poor winsy out, out came the sun and dried all the rain, and insy winsy climb up the spout again i sing a song about donald duck donald duck wears a hat like this, a hat like this, like this, donald duck wears a hat like this, has he got a drink of coke? er donald duck had a drink of coke, mm, mm, donald duck had a drink of coke i think you're just making that song up dear no it's not it's my new guest on and then jack and the jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water, down fell jack and broke his crown and jill came tumbling turn it off, you'll waste the battery after , mum did you hear me? yeah, anthony turn that off don't waste the batteries on it darling did you hear me mum? yeah i did jack and jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water, jack fell down and broke jack and jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water, jack fell down and broke his crown and jill came tumbling after . do you know humpty dumpty? yeah humpty dumpty sat on the wall, humpty dumpty had a great fall, all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put humpty together again i tell you what, you know more songs at your age than what i ever knew when i was little, i couldn't remember all them er no apples, two little apples hiding in the tree go on then, i haven't heard that one two little apples high in the apple, two little apples smiled down at me, i shook the tree as hard as i could, yummy, yummy, they were very good that's what you have to say yummy, yummy they were very good. i suppose you're supposed to of eaten them was you? no, no, no sing it again, nice and clearly and slowly two little apples high in the tree, two little apples smiled down at me, i shook the tree as hard as i could, yummy, yummy, they were very good that's a good little song innit? yeah. yeah i know what what? five little monkeys jumping on the bed go on then me five little monkeys jumping on the bed, one fell off and bumped his head, mummy phoned the doctor and the doctor said no more monkeys jumping on the bed no more monkeys jumping on the bed four little monkeys jumping on the bed, one fell off and bumped his head, mummy phoned the doctor and the doctor said, no more monkey's jumping on the bed four little monkeys jumping on the bed, one fell off and bumped his head, mummy phoned the doctor and the doctor said, no more monkeys jumping on the bed three little monkeys jumping on the bed, one fell off and bumped his head, mummy phoned the doctor and the doctor said, no more monkeys jumping on the bed i know two little monkeys jumping on the bed, one fell off and bumped his head, mummy phoned the doctor and the doctor said, no more monkeys jumping on the bed, one little monkey jumping on the bed, one fell off and bumped his head, mummy phoned the doctor and the doctor said no more monkey jumping on the bed one little monkey jumping on the bed, one fell off and bumped his head, mummy phoned the doctor and the doctor said no more monkey jumping on the bed that's a noisy one, cor, want it mate? me and er sing pussy cat sing pussy cat? yeah go on then pussy cat, pussy cat where are you? pussy cat, pussy cat where are you? hang on a minute it's supposed to be pussy cat, pussy cat who did there is it not supposed to be pussy cat, pussy cat where have you been, i've been to london to see the queen ? no pussy cat, pussy cat where on no sing pussy cat, pussy cat on my own pussy cat on his own yeah pussy cat, pussy cat on your own , yeah, then what? i think you're making that one up aren't you? mum it's pussy cat, pussy cat have some pie for, where mummy don't give them some pie and pussy cat, pussy cat up in london, there's two about pussy cats oh well as we don't know any of them, we'd better not sing them had we? yeah but we know pussy cat, pussy cat where have you been what about humpty dumpty? we've singed that have you? not me sing it alright then, what other nursery rhymes you know, erm erm, i know three blind mice, three blind mice, three blind mice, see how they run, see how they run, they all run after the farmer's wife, he cut off their tails with a carving knife, have you ever seen such a thing in your life, three blind mice me and three little, three little, three little pardon? three little sweets in the what was that charlotte he saying? three little sweets in the tree? no right erm yes hang on anthony, speak clearly i can't understand you yet darling. you sing it with us three little sweets, three little sweets is that right? no what about, what about baa baa black sheep? no, i was going to say what about the one about five sticky buns in the baker's shop, do you know that one? yeah go on then, sit down and five sticky buns in the baker's shop is that right? yeah, what's the next bit? i don't know oh no it wasn't, it was five currant buns wasn't it? yeah go on then sing it five currant buns in the baker's shop, one went no i can't remember what comes after that, five currant buns in the baker's shop five currant bake sshh, five currant buns in the baker's shop one went pop and the other went bang no, no, five currant buns in the baker's shop no i know what oh i don't know that, i can't think of that one three little kittens unless it was, yeah, three currant buns in a baker's shop, i paid a penny and, no, oh i don't know i can't think of it i laid a penny, no i spended a baker shop and one took away, five currant buns in a baker's shop, one went no, five currant buns in a baker's shop shop , along came a keeper and fi fat and delicious with sugar on the top along came the people and buyed it too no, five currant buns in a baker's shop, round and sticky with the sugar on the top, peter paid a penny and took one away, two currant buns left on the tray sing that one then three currant buns in the baker's shop three currant buns in the baker's shop fat and sticky with sugar on the top, peter paid a penny and took one away, then there were two currant buns left on the tray, two currant buns in the baker's shop fat and sticky with sugar on the top, peter paid a penny and took one away two currant buns in the baker's shop fat and sticky with sugar on the top, peter paid a penny and took one away there was one currant bun left on the tray mum cos i one currant bun in the baker's shop, round and fat with sugar on the top, peter paid a penny and took one away mum cos we, mum, mum, mum,mum, mum yes charlie? can we sing that last one by our self? if you must one currant bun in the baker shop, sticky and round with sugar on the top, peter pay a penny but took it away, now there was none left on the tray that's right, no currant buns, oh well you my prouded thing me an eating i wanna sing , i wanna sing pussy cat, pussy cat where have you been go on then pussy cat, pussy cat where have you been, i've been to london to visit the king, pussy cat, pussy cat what were you there, i frightened a little mouse under the chair that's a good one what, what three little kittens i don't know that one three little kittens, three little kittens, see how they run, see how they came, along came the father and make it hat, when he put his hat on and said i know, three little ducks swimming three little ducks, swimming, three little ducks, swimming, go to the pond and round and back , no i, hold a, hold on to my hands, hold on to my hands ant hold on to my hands, you sing row, row the, row the boat gently down the stream by our self. hold hands ant, we're gonna sing row, row, row the boat gently down the stream. are you tired? are you tired? we're gonna sing row, row, row the boat gently down the stream are you tired? alright then i use it with my feet mm no don't aggravate charlotte what, what about row, row row, row, row, the boat gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily life is but a dream ant do you wanna sing row, row, row, row the boat gently down the stream? mm row, row, row the boat what's the matter? ah charlotte no, he's got his shoes on that'll hurt if he catches you. get up and away from him now. life is but a dream now stop aggravating him, he doesn't want to play or sing. why any why don't you, why don't, why don't you want to sing? er leave er no do you wanna sing row, row, row the boat gently down the stream? no, we got er do oh darling what's the matter? no, me got to sing i know you've got to sing wheels on the bus oh you want picking up do you? no, i'm singing the one the lorry little and the lorry, he wants to sing little and the lorry go on then little and the lorry, little and the lorry, do you see listen can you sing quietly? alright, alright, i'm gonna sort you out, come on then, sshh, do some more singing then erm i don't know what to sing, i think of something you two think quietly a minute mm, we've got to think of something er, ma, make me horrible is that one yours? oh no, me not altered mine yet where are they? oh, er me eaten them anth want one? what do you want, you want the same colour as your car? yellow, yellow or orange, which do you want? me want black well there's no black ones in these er me have blue i ain't got any blue in here ah we got this one we got yellow in there and red erm yellow, yeah shall we have yellow? aagh yellow, yeah we have yellow then erm that , me want that no i want red, you have yellow, you have this no i don't want, me have, me have a green one, me have the green one well is there any green on your car? erm no there isn't is there? yeah a little bit where? little bit of green where? in the door where, no i can't see any, yeah but you can have green, there you go i give you green no it isn't that's green ant, what do you think this maybe be, green? green there i did them , here for you see oh no another one in there, you can have two then can't you? stop doing that, oh it won't shut will it, just press that button, oh stop that, i want it to shut well it won't shut there now we've got two, two each haven't we? and i just gave you two, two aren't i? this recorded that and recorded this when i open it, so, get two out, that's one of yours, ah, that's two of yours, erm, now it's my turn, mine no i play with that orange one yeah and that one there and that one oh warm them up now ant no i right mine is warmed up you put them on there i need some oven gloves, has anybody got oven gloves? oh yes teddy, here's my oven glove, where's your jumper ant? is that over there? yes yours is folded up, my wasn't was it? no, did it how did you er , i want it in there, i got idea, me have a oh i can eat them alright? we haven't thinked of any songs oh we can't think of any more songs that's alright it don't hurt to have a bit of peace and quiet i know i know a song oh do you? yeah, three little kittens and mother gave them three little kittens ah don't you eat all, eat them all three little kittens they walked round the door oh not on the window sill their mother said he isn't well, we brushed the kittens those naughty little kittens in the, show ah, ah, aagh what's the matter? the three little well ask me to sort it out, don't sit there and whinge anthony and they found the i got it now three little kittens they found their mother three little kittens they found their mittens i got it and mother did, we found our mittens, when you got your mittens now you can have your meow, meow, meow, meow er, a, have you got your other one out? shall i put mine in there? where did you put it through there? how? like that? in there and you couldn't even get it out er that take it and that's how you've got it out, and i want do you know if i ate a strawberry one yet? yeah how did you know that, do you look at the paper or anything? did you? oh no it's broken, that is it oh this is better, that's better to fix it that's what i haven't, have a sweetie oh it's a bit hard to do innit? good boy keep working darling but the only problem with it, that the wheels don't go round do they? where's your drill? what you doing fixing your car are you? yeah, he hasn't got got something though, stand up, i know a song now, i've got a song hickory hickory dock, the mouse did run up the clock, the clock struck one, what do you think of that, hickory, hickory dock, tick tock there are, i know that one, er, get a drink do you have to tip them all out anthony mark? yeah well i hope you're gonna put them all away later yeah had a bit of my drink oh my drink anthony are you sure? i think there was some, there's still a little bit in there ant mum, mum stop the pigeon, stop the pigeon mummy a little bit in there you want a drink dear? have your sweets for what? have your sweets for what? that's my last one me want a green one no, not any more and me want a, er, not and that i got two they're broken my last one no more for what?telephone ringing hello can i do that? no you can't, me have a go oh right, okay charlotte be quiet, ah? oh that's alright yeah i'm just feeding my baby what's he coming round for then? no must be well what's it gonna cost at the moment then? well it might put the price up a bit the, yeah, who's that with them? oh, you definitely gonna have where's the spanner thing? me got it oh i need it i want it or are you still having a me doing that is, have you got three white ones? no, well i'm, i need that one, that's not a white one, you need to go through the wheel there, see oh then? well don't have it done then well if you have them done you'll have them with the frame oh won't they? why won't this rod go through? oh you're not having those aluminium ones then mm won't go through oh whatever, at least they won't rot that's right no and not yeah i got a yeah we could do with decorating, but it's not really worth it you need a white one no, i can't, i can't yeah i know you did and nobody can work on here, and won't work on that bit well we're gonna do the kitchen anyway under the er insurance where that water leaked see, it keeps falling off the stupid thing i suppose you can to decorate it as well, we're gonna have that dark grey, and that way it won't cost us anything, we just wait, you know just get it out on our insurance policy, so we'll send it off, no not at the moment, so i've still got to clean my kitchen out thoroughly mum ma, mum ma a very good morning to you. jonathan cowap with the final hour of tuesday morning's breakfast programme your opportunity to have your say on just about everything as long as it's legal and decent and honest and in your own opinion you can call me now on york six four one six four one. things we think you might be interested or i think you might be interested in talking about this morning. erm gascoigne woods this er this great big erm dump of of coal waste that's gonna be er left in the selby area a mile long consisting of millions of tons of of spoil from the tip. local people very angry about it, how do you feel on the subject? o nine o four six four one six four one. we're gonna to be speaking to one or two er expert voices or er deeply interested parties in a moment or twos time. your contribution is more than welcome york six four one six four one. quick call that's all it will take and then er we ring you back and bear the burden of the telephone bill. erm life imprisonment should no longer be the automatic penalty for murder, that's according to the committee chaired by the former er lord er er former lord chief justice lord lane. it says it's wrong that a judge should have to pass the same sentence on an abused wife who kills a brutal husband as it does on a robber armed with a shotgun who kills in cold blood. the committee recommends that life should remain the maximum sentence but the judges should be given the freedom to impose, whatever penalty they see fit. can you agree with that? that life imprisonment should no longer be the automatic penalty for murder and that judges should be free to impose whatever penalty they seem fit. your thoughts on that one would be interesting. erm the sun claims this morning that the archbishop of canterbury dr george carey believes that the prince of wales should not be allowed to become the king of england because of his friendship with camilla parker bowles. do you this that's fair? six four one six four one is the number to call and erm the whole business about er these people lloyds of london, you know the er the investors the names at lloyds who stake everything they have in order to rake in enormous profits. well they had a particularly bad time many of them lost absolutely everything and now they're protesting cos the lloyds people are only coming up with a nine hundred million pound rescue package that might give them some of them back half of what they invested. can you work up any sympathy for them? o nine o four six four one six four one and perhaps on a lighter note according to speculation in the yorkshire post newspaper this morning gazzer could be heading towards alan rhodes. the paper says paul gascoigne could be coming to leeds united after his career in italian football where he plays of course for lazio the rome based club. erm i stress it is just speculation but what do you think? is gazzer just what leeds united needs or even wants? york six four one six four one is the number to call. could we bear to see him weeping across the border there in west yorkshire? it's ten minutes past nine and joining us on the line this morning is er judy in york good morning judy. good morning jonathan. we were talking on the subject of erm divorce in in yesterday morning's programme and this idea that erm the the whole procedure of getting a divorce som er would be speeded up and there'd be something called, no faults divorce, so that people wouldn't have to point accusatory fingers at one another. what was your erm wha what was your opinion of of these new suggestions? right well erm i i believe er that we should make every effort to preserve marriages erm and thinking especially of the suffering that's involved fm for children. i really feel very much for the children. and i'd i do think it's possible erm with help for people both sides have a partnership to to change you know if we take an honest look at ourselves. they'd start er you know one man gen mentioned er that when we get married in church erm we are making sacred vows you know we start with god but then we get busy with our living and our jobs and having our families and then somehow we forget about god and we we try to go on without him. but er i i do belie i've we we go to a a church in in york and er i believe in the saying, the family that prays together stays together, and a christian foundation for marriage i gives stability in your relationship. i mean we have to work very hard in our own er relationship we've had our ups and downs we've gone through many difficult times like unemployment and even homelessness and you know we we've gone through it but when you make your promises you say you'll stay together for richer for poorer in sickness and in health and so on. but sometimes they're taking lightly and we have found the help and encouragement that our christian friends and our our vicar have given to us in our difficult times have he helped keep us together. i'm sure the word divorce has come into my mind er several times at the crisis points but by god's strength you keep going and you grow . but f f f for many people judy i mean th people will look to you with some degree of er of admiration and maybe some degree of of envy that you do have that strong faith that's that's helped you through those times. but for many people isn't it the case that the the church wedding is an an and the promises made the vows made before god and er before the the congregation, for many people they're just a sort of rather erm oh dear how can i put it rather a flimsy frippery erm that they just feel it's essential to have so that they can have the nice pictures and and look back on on a church wedding. doesn't it make a nonsense of the whole thing? well i agree i i mean it it is a bit hypocritical really just to want all all the the show and everything you know if you're not really sincere in those promises you're making. i mean the the money that some people spend on on a wedding i i mean it it's just one day and then you got yo it's your life afterwards that really counts. erm i think money is another issue a actually very strong issue that causes er people to think of divorce because of disagreement of h how to to use money people go into debt. we're coming up to christmas of course and that was touched on yesterday how much people spend at christmas. erm there's tremendous pressures i think for for a mother particularly erm at the early stage in the marriage when she has young children at home. i found that quite a hard time erm and especially if you don't have any family near. m my parents live quite a long way away and erm y you've got to to you need the support of others. a friend and i in in our church we've started erm a mother and toddler service and that seemed to really help a lot of the young mums they really look forward and they said could we have it more often. you know we had it once a month and they really wanted this kind of support and help and er for the ch children to have a christian foundation. i'm sure if people will perhaps they look at the church and think oh it's out of touch but it isn't there are churches that are alive and have something very relevant to say today. as a as a churchgoer and a committed christian i mean i i quoted earlier on this morning from the sun newspaper this morning which is ranting and raving this morning on the subject of erm well it claims that the the archbishop of canterbury er dr carey is saying that erm charles could never be king of this country erm because erm he had an affair with camilla parker bowles mhm. wha what's what would your opinion be as as a church-comer would you be as we don't know whether the archbishop really said it cos it's printed in the sun for heaven's sake. mm i bet it's been twisted i've had experience of things i've said being in the paper and not coming out as i've said them . but wha what's y what's your opinis opinion i mean you're talking about erm the er marriage from er er er spiritual standpoint from a christian standpoint and here we have the man who erm if he became king would be head of the church of england assuming it hasn't become disestablished by then. mm. erm how would you feel about him being being the kind and defender of the faith? well not very happy really. erm you know i mean i i wi the queen i think has given a wonderful example and her family life and i feel very sorry for the way her her children have you know the stresses of modern life ha have caused all these things and i feel for charles an and diana deeply. erm i think it's really very sad that i it's just the society we live in has put these kind of pressures on marriages and you know we're all human and we can all be tempted to look at other people and be unfaithful but in those times of er you know temptation you just i well i i've found that that's where my faith comes in you're sort of helped through those times. erm i'm not really ans answering the question but i i didn't really want to get on to that one it's just all right. could i just erm mention one thing if yep if there are people who are going through a crisis just now there is a wonderful organization called care, care for the family. they have many caring initiatives and erm they've been to york and they've erm had marriage seminars er and they do an hel help with parenting er i just wonder if i could give the address of this so if anyone is interested well they could get in touch i'll tell you i'll tell you what w we you give the the the address to someone o off air because people won't have pen and paper now and then if any right and then anyone can phone in then anyone who wants it can call us. thanks judy. okay. bye bye now have a good day bye bye . bye bye thank you. bye bye. erm here's a here's something from the sun this morning just on the subject of who's going to be king. erm bookies yesterday slashed odds on prince william becoming the next king because of an exclusive sun story, i don't think. erm, we revealed the queen wants the crown to skip a generation. william hill, the other william, immediately cut their price on wills being crowned by january the first in the year two thousand from twenty five to one to ten to one. not such good odds. do you think the crown ought to skip a generation like that? o nine of four six four one six four one if you'd like to comment on something in the news at the moment something on er judy's just said or er on this business of of life imprisonment, no longer to be the automatic penalty for murder judges to be given the freedom to impose whatever penalty they see fit. would you trust the judiciary of this country with that sort of er level of responsibility? people are already querying from time to time the de decision judges make. i can't begin to imagine the sort of furore that might break out if er judges started to hand out the sort of penalties that they saw fit in particular cases. and er you might have heard what er the department of education, john patten the education secretary, was saying yesterday about erm sex education. i've got all the er the official details in in front of me here. in a statement mr patten set out the place of sex education in society and the vital importance of teaching the teaching of moral values. he called for concerted action by governors head teachers and teachers to erm make sure that er young people appreciate the importance of having a set of values recognize the values held by others from whom they can learn. this whole business of sex education and teaching morality in schools, do you think it is the school's responsibility or do you think mum and dad ought to play more of a part? york six four one six four one is the number to call. erm moving on and talking about the subject of the gascoigne wood pits or the er proposed tip at the gascoigne wood pits in just a couple of moments time. hello to tell you what's on today's afternoon show. flashback f m rewinds to december nineteen eighty three, from three meet former radio four today presenter john timpson with another of his wacky books which takes him all over the country looking at the unusual including some of the things you never knew existed in north yorkshire. gumboots and pearls is the story of army officers' wives continues and after four anything could happen when the goody and the baddy meet head on. david leonard and martin barris are in panto once again at york theatre royal they pop in straight from rehearsals. and our class of the week today come from king james school in knaresborough. tuesday's afternoon show with between two and five i hope you'll join me. it's nineteen minutes past nine. if it goes ahead it'll cover nearly three hundred and fifty acres and consist of thirty million tons of coal. british coal's plans to build a huge coal tip at gascoigne wood could get approval later today. an official from the inspectorate of pollution had expressed worries that the scheme would cause more pollution but today those criticisms have been withdrawn. well local people protesting in the area say they'll fight the scheme and they plan to lobby the meeting of county planners at ten thirty in northallerton this morning which has been called to discuss the scheme. well joining me on the line is the minerals planning consultant from the protester's group that's er peter and in our northallerton studio is john who's the county planning officer. first er but i've been tol i'm sorry i'm i haven't realized scott was joining us on the line. good morning and he's with us as well. good morning mr . good morning. erm well i don't really know what to ask you because i was prepared to erm well shall i tell you what you were going to ask? yeah go on you tell what you were going to ask me. no the position is that er given that this is a fourth stage er planning process. you've got the district council the county council then the national government may intervene by calling in the application. but there is a fall-back position and that is that the european community have a directive called the environmental impact assessment directive that requires that before a major project of this type is put through there must be the fullest public consultation. in my view,a although there's a current debate about this there has not been the fullest public consultation and i would er myself be minded to invoke the er e c directive on this er in order to try and er to make sure that the the public feel they are fully aware of what the proposals are. so you wouldn't be necessarily satisfied then with discussion purely at a local level and a decision here? no i th the the public inquiry that should take place in my view would would of course be conducted locally would involve all local interest and would have the benefit of independent views by experts on the environmental impact of this er proposal. so what i'm really asking for is full democracy and not the rather closed democracy that we've been used to in this country er for too long. mr that you very much indeed for joining us on the programme this morning. took me by awares er by er by surprise. let me go to er where i expected to go now to john the county planning officer. what do you think to erm what erm you've just heard the north yorkshire euro mp edward have to say there about his erm keenness to see a public inquiry? well the county council is quite clear on this. we are an experienced planning authority. county councillors have been dealing with british coal in relation to gascoigne wood and selby complex for twenty years. in that limited area where we lacked expertise we have employed outside consultants to advise the council. i believe that we have wi will be fulfilling all our statutory and moral responsibilities in the way that we have dealt with the application. we've dealt with it fully in compliance with the law including an environmental statement. mr refers to european law and environmental statements that was passed into british legislation we have fully complied with that. an environmental statement was required from the company it has been given full publicity i believe that the planning committee and county planning committee today have sufficient information to come to a decision an informed decision. well le let's just hear what er peter has to say about that. he's the mineral planning consultant from the protester's protest group. good morning mr . good morning. what would your comment be? my comment is that i don't accept what john is saying. i cannot for the life of me see why the county council as the statutory authority and supposedly an independent er er body to british coal is so resistant to a full public inquiry when only the clear er proposals of british coal will come out. i cannot for the life of me see why they're so resistant to it. mr . we're resistant to it not for any dogmatic reason but we don't feel that local democracy is necessarily improved by the county council d d ducking it's decision. we are the responsible authority if members, and it's their decision this morning, believe that they have all the relevant information then they will stand up and be counted. but the local people are clearly very concerned about it. the the the er the joint villages action committee wants a public discussion to take place in a in a public forum with the set rules of a public inquiry. why shouldn't they have that? i mean this coal tip is isn't going to be based on what i said a moment or two ago with it's thirty million tons of coal covering nearly three hundred and fifty acres a bit of a monster. well you say that but i mean there are plenty of other coal disposal facilities in the country. what eventually is proposed would be very similar to hambleton and bath in terms of its impact in the local environment. there are few people, i'm very concerned for those people and we will be imposing conditions if members wish to approve it to protect the interests of the few people in close proximity, many of the objectors er they must be heard and their point of view is report in the committee papers but they do live at er a couple of miles from the site. er i would say that the impact of the development if it goes ahead must be limited at that distance. i don't believe there will be problems at that distance of noise of dust and the visual impact of this hill must be limited at that distance. is it horrible? yes can i come back on one or two points there. w w the county council have a duty to er consider this application so it's not a question of them ducking their responsibilities they're not capable of in law of ducking their responsibilities. but what they have done is something quite unprecedented in my view and that is to actually write to the secretary of state and say to him do not exercise your rights to call this matter in to consider beside or above th the county planning authority. and that is in the teeth of the partition of three thousand four hundred signatures from local people and urgent requests from those communities that the county council allow the secretary of state full discretion in this matter to call the matter in. there has been a positive attempt at denial of local democracy. why have you why have you done that mr ? well we've not done that at all. what we have said and we will be referring my recommendation to the planning committee today is if they're minded to approve it and subject to a legal agreement and subject to conditions, we will refer it as a departure to the secretary of state. what we have said what members have already resolved is that they do not believe that it is necessary for him to intervene. this is not a unique case the planning committee at its last meeting made a similar recommendation on a different mineral site. i don't believe that the secretary of state has need to call it in and indeed mr curry has written to the local member of parliament saying his mind is still open but on the information he had in october he does not think that these that this application raises issues of more than local importance. that is the definition as to why an application should be called in. does it raise issues of more than local importance. the view of the county council is that it does not raise those issues. i'll let peter come back to you in just a moment erm and there are more question i would ask you as well but erm now we must take a short break with time at nine twenty six. we'll get the latest on north yorkshire's roads from a a roadwatch. and starting firstly in york city centre. things starting to ease off following a busy rush hour this morning. it's still a bit busy coming in down there on tadcaster road and the usual busy traffic for this time of the day on the junction of bootham and gillygate. but elsewhere things certainly easing off now. also an early drizzly start to the day to the north of the county that seems to be easing off as well. a bit misty but again starting to lift. on the a sixty four east of york the outside lane closures are still in place this morning between grimsdon and hopgrove. also the hopgrove roundabout itself is being resurfaced right through the day which again is adding to the usual delays for this time of a tuesday. in york work continues at the junction of askham lane and ridgeway and finally on the a one six eight between dishforth and thirsk there's a contraflow on the tockwith bypass. jason cullen a a roadwatch. two rail delays to tell you about. the nine thirty six london kings cross service that one is delayed at the moment as is the nine forty two bournemouth service out of platform five. apart from that everything else running to time through until the ten o'clock london kings cross service out of platform three. peter you wanted to come back. yes indeed i do. mr claims that this is merely of local importance and at the end of the day twenty years from now or twenty five years from now whenever this the application is imp is implemented and and completed that it would be no more than a replica of er natural features within the vale of york. those two points are absolutely nonsense. it is not merely of local importance it is going to be a huge alien feature for twenty years of working and in perpetuity thereafter within a natural rural area and a natural landscape. it is going to be nine and a half times the footprint of hambleton three and a half times the footprint of brayton bath it will tower in its mass beside them and it is totally unreasonable and wrong for anybody to describe it as merely of local concern. john . well the i have to disagree with mr on this. the height of the mound will be lower than brayton bath it will be lower than hambleton . i'm not minimizing the impact on the environment during working we are still negotiating the details of restoration with british coal in the event that members er accept the recommendation in principle today. we are seeking to ensure that the er first area to be built up gives protection to the village of hambleton and can be restored very quickly. but nevertheless it is an application which is necessary, british coal at the end of the day would have been delighted not to make it after all. this is going to be a very er difficult and expensive application for them but we have a successful coal industry the jobs associated with it we've got to balance economic interests and environmental interests and i believe we can do so. a reminder to you if you're listening to the programme this morning and er you are concerned about the creation of this tip at the gascoigne wood mine in selby that you can call us and put your question to york six four one six four one is the number to call. can i ask you mr we we reported on this programme yesterday morning that an official from the inspectorate of pollution had expressed worries that the scheme could cause more pollution. but today we learn that those criticisms have been withdrawn. why? why's he changed his mind? there was an overlap in terms of certain areas of responsibility between her majesty's inspectorate of pollution letter which was one of objection and the national rivers authority. we said to both of them, look you are quasi-government organizations who are sponsored by government departments there can only be one technical view. you're not expressing opinions you're expressing technical er situation. wasn't really a technical situation i thought i was told yesterday that the erm letter from the inspe the pollution inspectorate was a matter of opinion. it wasn't a a technical statement at all it was it was an opinion from an inspector. he said that there was a risk of pollution. now that is a technical issue. i asked both bodies to get together if they needed further information from british coal they should secure it. that's what h m i p did they got further information from british coal they met er on friday er with their colleagues at the national rivers authority and it's from that greater understanding of the application that h m i p have now said that they are prepared to withdraw their objection subject to the imposition of the conditions at the n r a request. peter what to do that. peter why do you think the erm the her majesty's inspectorate of pollution have changed their mind? because they've been pressured into an opinion on one particular aspect of their letter. but don't forget that their letter really addressed three fundamental issues. it addressed air quality they criticize the threat to air quality in their letter and that hasn't been addressed by the n r a it's beyond the n r a's permit to to do that. and then we have the third issue which is site selection and here they are at one with the local communities when they say this particular er selected site has been driven by economic consideration and not environmental consideration. and that is against the advice of government in its circular advice to the coal industry and indeed to the county council. so they might well have had convenient discussions with the n r a as late as friday even though their letter preem the inspectorate's letter was written on the eighth of september and friday of course was the day after this letter had been released to us on our request and was was two days after the selby committee had met on wednesday. howev it's all too convenient and it's all too easy we have a perfect example of of of bureaucratic shuffling. shuffle it between enough parties for long enough and and the issues will get lost. john no. bureaucratic shuffling? certainly not i mean the other issues as as mr quite rightly says are air quality and the letter from the inspectorate now says i understand that the measures taken by british coal, and they've moved on since september, the measures taken by british coal are now to the satisfaction of the regulatory authority which for air quality is the district council. and on site selection, well that is not why i consult er h m i p i want their technical views. site selection has been dealt with and is a ss straight forward planning issue. no it isn't. i think it's a it's a question that they are perfectly right under the environmental protection legislation where the h m i p are given wider powers. i think it is a perfectly legitimate area of comment for them. but can i answer specifically john's point john 's point on the matter of agreement between h m i p now and the selby district council on the matter of air quality. the latest report from the environmental health department of selby district council which was made available to the selby district council planning committee last wednesday clearly criticizes the issue of air quality based on the british coal proposals as they stand. they say that there are going to be dust clouds issuing from this site comparable to the dust clouds that used to issue from the p f a lagoons at brotherton. and that's almost a straight quotation from that report. so if the h m i p are now at one with selby then they must still stand by their view that there is a considerable risk to air quality as outlined in point one of their letter of the eighth of september. now it is for these reasons all of these different views and these conflicting opinions coming from authoritative sources and the concern the locals have that this issue has been ramrodded through on a political ticket is is is the very reason why it should go to an inspector appointed by the secretary of state at least some semblance of independence and that issues brought out in in full public consideration. john john well let john let john answer that. it's not been ramrodded through on a political basis. my report to the planning committee is a sound professional technical planning report and i believe that on the information that i've been supplied with i can recommend to the planning committee to approve the application. you've got three thousand people locally who've their signatures to a petition who don't want this thing on their doorstep because they're worried that they've tha that there're going to be things wrong with it's going to affect the quality of the lives of people in selby. that's what all boils down to doesn't it at the end of the day and you haven't succeeded as far as i can see in convincing people, those three thousand signatories, that erm it's not going to affect their lives and the quality of their lives and their their environment adversely. no but i think it is interesting that some of the parish councils for instance who initially were opposed to the application and very strongly, as they have been supplied with further and better information have modified their position and are now saying subject to rigorous planning controls they are no longer opposed outright to the application. things have moved on application details have been supplied and will continue to be. i mean we will be working with british coal to work it out further in fine detail. we're go entering proposing to enter into legal agreements as well as planning conditions if it is to go ahead. let's hear from some erm local people on the subject of er of the proposed er tip site at gascoigne wood near selby. reminders that you can call in as well on six four one six four one on the york exchange if you've a point you'd like to make. terry terry we've been keeping him waiting on the line a long time good morning terry. good morning. erm you i understand live erm quite near to the proposed development. yes it's within six hundred and fifty meters. and what's your wha what's your feelings? well obviously we're against the proposals er because of the noise element and obviously the dust. as it's been noted in the previous conversation there is er a possibility of obviously dust from the i it's spoil by the way not coal. yes sorry that was my my mistake. coal can be moved spoil is there for ever. we've got this on our doorstep for twenty thirty forty years and longer. er because of the problems the stock piles of coal at various pits, i think there is about forty five million tons stocked at various pits, they'll still be using coal from bywater and so that there's no necessity to to mine coal in such er vast amount. obviously the affect of the change in the pit review procedure has changed a lot. this was muted well before the the pit review body decided to sort of close pits down. but a a away from the the the politics and the necessity to to mine coal yeah or nay, your personal worry is that you live close to the proposed site and it's going to somehow adversely affect the quality of your and your family's life. yes. okay let's put that to john what er what reassurances can you to er to terry living six hundred and fifty meters away from this planned development? he he doesn't believe the reassurances he's heard so far. well i believe that we i am confident in fact that we can impose conditions and more importantly place conditions that will minimize the dust . we're proposing codes of practice to operate it. it's not coming completely new to us this type of operation. we have experience at common and at barlow with disposal of power station ash. slightly different material but substantially the same n nature same scale of development, i believe that we have a track record that shows that we were are tough and will continue to be tough i terry do those reassurances that the county council planners are going to be tough do they erm =lay some of the er the fears that you have? in a word no. why not? we've had assurances before we we've had no dialogue with the county council. we wouldn't have had no dialogue with british coal or very little dialogue. i have a quick phone call i think it was june or july just stating what they wanted to do and i in my opinion it was passed then and it is political. terry thank you very much indeed. peter if you're still with us. yes indeed. wh erm terry's feelings there do they you've obviously been speaking to to large numbers of protestors do they marry with the other opinions that you hear? oh absolutely so. i er er first of all can i correct you? there are not three thousand four hundred signatures say this thing should be refused. that might well be the result at the end of the day when all issues are properly balanced. what the three thousand four hundred are saying is that the county council and british coal do not know where they're going with this thing, the full implications of it have either not been properly assessed or indeed not been released to the to the local communities. they feel that as it's their heritage they should have a say in the matter and a proper consideration and therefore there are thousands of signatures saying please can we have a public inquiry. that is what they're saying and i think that that can only be seen as eminently reasonable and i think that that edward has hit the nail right on the head when he says look if this issue is not properly considered locally there can be no alternative if government fails in its duty to call it in in the in the interests of of the local communities and the region at large, then it will have to go to brussels. and i would welcome that initiative right now. john can you really press ahead with this recommendation in the light of the fact that there is clearly such mass local feeling about it such distrust on on a grand scale of the reassurances that you and fellow planners have made? well i'm disappointed that there is this lack of reassurance. i mean we have handled it professionally and con and con i don't i don't i don't i don't think i don't think anybody is denying that but it's clearly not worked. well er it it will be for elected members of course to decide but i mean county councillors are elected by local people to represent local people but also take decisions on behalf of the community. i don't think that anyone would expect them to shirk that if if we haven't no but again it does but but but when the but when the local community rises up like this and and expresses such a a heart felt opinion on something elected representatives or not surely they ought to to listen when a specific issue like this is is obviously causing such concern? yes well they are listening. i mean the committee report er and appendices that are going to members today run to thirty plus sides. at the end of the day in any event the county planning committee if they accept my recommendation will be sending it off to the department of the environment. if the department of the environment think that there are issues of more than local importance they will call it in but their preliminary view expressed to the local mp mr is that they don't believe that's the case. that i stress is a preliminary view they could not and would not wish to make a final decision until they have all the information. but i think that we can persuade them that it is something that parliament has said a planning application that deals with local issues can be determined locally. peter . can i there are there are several issues in what john has said. he says there's been proper consultation with the local communities and the local authorities including the parish councils. i'd i'd i would refute that. for example there has been a recent change in the proposals of british coal in the manner of transportation of this material onto the tip and the manner in which it is tipped and handled. the very core of the issue in environmental terms. those details have not been sent out to the parish councils for further consultation and i refer there john to circular fifteen of ninety two publicity for planning applications where at paragraph twenty five there is clear government advice that where the changes are p are where the proposed changes are significant, and these are undeniably significant, there should be reconciliation. there has been none. the local communities have been ignored in these issues and these discussions that are going on between british coal and the county council. john then goes on to say well of course we're going to refer this to the secretary of state. well of course he is because he is obliged to do it. he's obliged to do it because it is a departure a very significant departure from his own development plan the plan that he piloted through to to tell people exactly what the policies of north yorkshire county council were to be. and now he's running against that plan and under the law, section fifty four over ninety one that er of the ninety act, he is now obliged to refer it to the secretary of state. but what have the county council done? they've already written to the secretary of state and said dear secretary of state we're going to send this to you because it is a departure but please secretary of state do not call it in do not exercise your powers. and that is in the teeth of the stated wish of these communities. i cannot for the life of me see this is a reasonable attitude on the part of the county council. stew it is not responsive to the local communities and it is totally lacking in democracy. stewart joins us on the line now good morning mr . good morning. you live in south milford i understand one of the i do. the villages concerned. the point you'd like to make. well er the first one is that er er the mr says that it those people with two mile away from this er tip er will not be affected. now most of this tip is in the parish of south milford er so i take it he means he doesn't count those people. and the majority of those have objected are in the area of that two miles. we'll let his answer that. no i'm not ignoring them but what i'm saying is that problems that people are genuinely concerned about of dust or noise are unlikely to have an impact at a distance of two miles. very unlikely if it is properly controlled in terms of deposition of materials on site then certainly at two miles i don't believe there will be a problem. er ha i can imagine what you would say if it was in two miles of your property as to whether these dusts would affect you or not. but apart from that er this area is a flat plane. there's practically nothing between the residence of south milford and the horizon with the exception of this hundred foot mound that will exist. and i do erm support peter that in my view the er district council and yourselves have not listened and i don't believe the county council are going to listen to the objections of the local community. john what can you do in the face of of such distrust? well i'm i'm very disappointed about that i mean we're listening to the local community we're reporting the local communities views but at the end of day south milford parish council have in fact moderated their views. they, it's always argued that the parish councils are closest to local people, they had an out and out objection from the parish council initially they have subsequently written to me twice in november moderating that position and saying subject to safeguards they they no longer have an outright objection. well stewart's on the parish council aren't you stewart? yes i am. er yes well that is so this did come through er very very late indeed er in the and the parish council of course are in the situation where they have to cover all eventualities and what er mr is referring to is a suggestion of using a one o six agreement to protect as far as possible the local communities when the tip is erected. it didn't change the the actual view of the people in the village. it was the parish council themselves who had to consider things very quickly and go for what they could best endeavour but you c er i can't see how that can be used to nullify the general view of the public of south milford and the other parishes. well i mean i quote from the nineteenth of november letter from the parish council, the parish council fully support the environmental recommendations from the district council. now we all know what the district council view is. the district council view is quite clearly support the application but be tough on the details. to me that means that the parish council have moved qu a long way from their outright objection lodged in the summer. point there because the the environmental er considerations of the district council are of course those of the environmental health officer and those that is the report which raises considerable er concern about the dust blow problem and the moisture content of the material to be delivered into this tip. and that is where the parish council were coming from. if i can just endorse what stewart was saying the parish council talked to me as their consultant for a while and said look it seems that that with the with the actions of the er county council writing to the secretary of state to preempt the call-in procedures and the attitude of the district council that this thing might well get local planning permission. can we in the alternative put our case if that is a fait accompli then there must be something for the local communities to be derived from this and therefore we went for protection under one o six agreement as stewart quite rightly refers to and we also went for the dedication of large areas of the resultant heap for landscaping and for public open space. but that was purely in the alternative to a public inquiry in the first instance with the possibility of alternative means of disposal coming forward and being accepted. and and i don't think the parish council's case has been prejudiced in that instance. it is a perfectly reasonable attitude to adopt in the light of all of the circumstances. john . well er as i say the position of the parish council the fact that there have been so many objections are fully reported in the committee papers today. members will take them into account when they come to a decision. but at the end of the day er my view is that on balance there is a case for this application to go forward. peter one final question probably to you. where can you take your campaign if today's meeting at county hall in about forty minutes which i know you've got to dash off and and get ready for, erm where can you take your campaign, the joint villages action committee's campaign, if erm the meeting today gives the tip at gascoigne woods approval? well we've heard what edward has had to say and the local communities i'm certain draw great comfort from that and we wait and see whether brussels will exercise its powers, quite legitimately in my view, and and call this in. er in the alternative of course er the local communities have available er the high court action which i've referred to during several discussions with yourselves over the last week or two. erm those are the issues which will have to be very carefully balanced. i would hope however that the committee members at north yorkshire will see that the local feeling is so deep that the project itself cannot be harmed by a public inquiry and they will make er they will take the decisions which will put this application in that direction and send that message very clearly to the secretary of state. john and so far so far as you're concerned the local people are not going to get that public inquiry are they? well no that's a mem that's a member decision. why? er but i refute that the county council is unsympathetic to local concerns. we have got to balance environmental issues and economic issues, we've got a coal field that is a successful coal field it has a severe problem. we're trying to work to resolve that problem with minimal impact in the environment and that's what my recommendations are leading to that's what if it is approved my officers will be ensuring happens if it last twenty years. how do you feel about the possible threat of intervention from from europe or even a high court action? well i don't believe that they would succeed because i think that we have taken account of all the views expressed and that members will be making an informed decision today. certainly to the best of my knowledge we have fully complied with all the legislation. can you give us any idea of the the time scale of when we might learn that decision? well it will be sent off to the secretary of state in theory he has twenty one days in practice i suspect it will be mid-january at least before we learn. we shall await it with interest. john thank you very much indeed for answering er everybody's questions this morning. nice to talk to you bye bye . thank you good bye. that's john the county planning officer for north yorkshire and before that the minerals plan er planning consultant from the protesters group peter . one final comment comes from er frank from er south milford. good morning mr . good morning. the point you'd like to make. er following on er what er stewart said as a member of the parish council i think the feeling er was given by john that the parish council were now against this scheme. i would just like to quote from a circular that was sent round to every resident in south milford by the parish council. and it says, message to local residents from the parish council. the county planning committee meet on the seventh of december to cons to consider british coal application for colliery waste at gascoigne wood. south milford parish council whilst being totally opposed to the scheme decided in the best interests of their residents to make the following observations to county, and that is where they've built in the safeguards but they are totally opposed to the scheme. what will your action be from a local point of view. erm i've i've i've asked erm your expert who's who's representing the the village the village's interests peter . whereabouts will you take erm your action personally at a local well obvious local level? obviously we will be guided by our consultants but this er er view of is er er meeting with er er great success in the villages because obviously er we feel that if there is a public inquiry then we stand a better chance of british coal sticking to the promises made when they had the original planning application and removing all waste by train to suitable sites and there's one at welbeck which is waiting for the material. and thank and that's what we want to happen. frank thank you very much indeed for joining us on the programme this morning. thank you good morning . thank you t , good morning to you sir. formal just how it should be on the b b c thank you very much indeed to everybody erm joining in that debate. and i'm not sure that personally i'm put my hands up and say that i'd understand all the issues but i understand some of the basic principles and i'm beginning to understand er some of the complexities of a a planning issue like this. i hope you enjoyed that discussion i mean well first of all if you live in the selby area it's been of relevance to you and you've managed to hear what both sides are saying but i i hope even if you don't live in the selby area it's er you've er found it as fascinating as i have to hear the pros and cons of such a complex issue. erm a reminder to you that the lines will open at a quarter to nine on erm york six four one six four one tomorrow morning if er you have points you'd like to make. we've still got er er a couple of calls i think to come before the end of er this morning's programme on the subject of erm, i don't know whether it's life imprisonment or er on er on divorce. we'll find out in a moment or twos time. there's a moment before the traffic and travel news now for me to remind you that erm if you're the chairman or the secretary or whatever it happens to be of a particular group whether it be erm the local amateur dramatics society or er a north yorkshire charity and you'd like the opportunity to have some prime time publicity for what you're doing, particularly in the run-up to the christmas period when you go to your mum's tomorrow, or when we go out tomorrow we'll take it with us, in case we meet anybody i can be taping cos i can get as many people as i like, when you go up to ken's take it with you, put it on your pocket, but then say to them, if you object we won't do it. i'm not i've got to get as many people as i can. yeah. the tape is already in that where's that that man's ever so nervous ain't he? have you got it on? yeah. is it on? yeah oh, oh you won't believe it go on i got down there just now so i said to him excuse me hello, how are you? well i ain't very happy, oh what's happen then? oh, what's don't know what? she said i don't know what your there's a missing, so i it said mr g , so dad said why does it say mr and er, she said it's a court order she said ,court order, she said er that has been in the yard no , so he said erm,when i opened it court order, i said well i don't know what yours is i said but it's nothing to do with this, i said this is about that so when i opened the other one i remember then that when they originally built that court order bit he give me one cheque for sixty two quid and one for sixty nine yeah and the two court orders, they, they'd had one court one cheque and one for the other yeah so they both about the same thing, he's been sitting there worried all day, he's oh no yeah,so happy today, so is that what she said? he's been sitting there stewing all day over that oh she should of, why they addressed to you then? well one was sent to mr g did you check to see if that was going? oh yeah it is and the other one said mr well why should it well she thought don't she get herself in a yeah tiswas it's all cor dear does she yeah oh what a was it good? cor yeah, in , ever so good. good i tell me self just done that, i haven't even boiled the kettle silly me. i don't know what i doing. no. hurry up jonathan pardon? i said hurry up. i'm coming oh i , here cor great, i just and they're doing tag teams, but the tag teams have joined up i don't know in the tag teams, so there's a, but at the moment four against two you look marvellous cor yeah is it? well they haven't actually, haven't got or anything they just use their body. oh yeah. yeah, but he's the only one that really it's sort or just say, ok take them out, how he kills them when they're, when the picks them up and throws them down again where did matthew get it then? oh i thought it jonathan are you going to start your tea please? oh, why didn't you say? it's gonna get cold no, no well let me well it's going to the not me. the you know what it is i bet they're pruning in the field could well be, yes. that leaves off, bet that's them out in that field messing about oh, they nearly got to, up to the roof aren't they? yeah now why haven't you been doing very well at school this week? the week well you won't get that will you? eh? why haven't you been getting on very well then? i suppose you get some weeks like that when you don't did miss get on to you then? no did you get anything on the oh i forget, forgot to get it well it must be cos i, i put salt on it, i thought myself you got the salt and have some more salt strong. how did you get on at football? we won. how many? erm two, two, one, did they all behave? yeah. i know they are did luke play? yeah oh, is that what's upset you this week? no i forgot about it till now let that upset you. i not in then is he? no, i shall need new shin pads dad. there for you not for him. no, i said he could borrow them, cos he's in the team. well why didn't he use yours and , i don't mind, but every week i didn't matthew's football? steven oh ball's up the other end he just sits there on the floor, so but you're not that interested in football well yeah. i'll tell you what it's alright,what else did you can i have a yeah did she realize that the two would you have old mrs well she said about two spoonfuls . did you get many chips today jonathan from school? did you? cor yeah. what did you have for sweet today? yoghurt. weren't a lot of choice was there? no, why was that? had to wait for james, i hadn't noticed he'd gone past what mm, he'd gone past he must be now these hope there what it's a what? no yeah, can't understand what you're saying. we were saying today that the was saying today that what yeah,but he said he'd tell us he takes eleven tablets a day eleven yeah, but apparently he's anti-depressant also he said, he said that they them for? god knows and erm forgot to put the sugar in. yeah, cliff was saying that er, he said all yeah, he said he's er he goes through the if, if you're not sort of paying attention to him you what you mean? well if you sort of leave him out of a conversation, he goes a bit funny, he storms off, i think i had noticed a couple of times that he has, and you see what happens is he sits there seems a bit well he sits there talking at dinner times well then when she goes when she goes he's erm quick alright, alright cor when she goes, yeah she goes any more bread so he sits there erm, and you know you involve in our conversation, but he sits there talking to her and then he sort of feels out of it and then he storms off oh a bit silly ain't it? they actually came and put his oh oh well it's got, erm mike in it oh yeah do you want some of those might as well i wait on you lad, left, right and centre i do who's washing up tonight? you must be joking you must be joking, wish wish i did huh, dad said he wished he did erm do you want some blackberry jonathan? no thanks. we're gonna have that christmas draw next friday ooh, you got to make sure you've got your tickets next friday then. yeah. hello, yeah ,for you no, sounds like he's at home oh er, well there, no, no, say you might have some, well see how you feel. yeah i will alright. can i have bread and jam as well? goodness me jonathan i'm hungry don't eat that much oh help yourself cor that smells nice wendy do you want blackcurrant? oh yeah, have you got strawberry? pardon? have you got any strawberry? yeah, i'll have i'll have blackcurrant then i'll have strawberry oh i'm not messing about with that you'll like this stuff well do you like wrestling? oh yeah, i didn't mind wrestling but i don't like it is wrestling yeah but it's that. oh cos it, w w f, paul hogan used to be the champion oh ah how long's matthew had erm, sky television then? ages. oh i see. you know what i've gone and done jonathan? what? i've done them all strawberry, all blackberry i mean is that alright? yeah cor, that's lovely, great that whatever was you and john playing at? when? dinner time at school what with christopher? oh why's that? i don't know, said he . what did he want only just to needs to know what goes into did no, no, i yeah who called it up then? what? the other day christopher was talking talking yeah christopher out the room he didn't he did erm, some boys name son of , er matt i think, and er he'd got what they do fall off the back of a lorry? huh, it was a bloody gardener expensive one that i've never heard i've never heard of it before well it forty nine, ninety five yeah so he said erm, like a fiver, oh so i said well said i've never heard of it, he said well you've heard of quartz haven't you? what's that got to do with it? quartz? yeah, what's that got to do with it i said i, you know,just never heard of that well there you are then, no, be wasting my time oh no, he's got a face and a black sort of leather strap oh that will be but he didn't look what an actual inside it. inside it, it's like a flat blue sort of velvet suede wallet but i said he oh i said well why no i wouldn't, too right fair enough he said you should be yes. i go and get you some don't worry i was on about the necklace and you said it was a bit pricey yeah there's another twenty five per cent off if you go in there tomorrow, so how much would that be? i don't know how much it was that was thirty six, if you take twenty four per cent off what's that? nine quid how much? nine quid off well i'll go and get it then twenty seven pounds. i'll get it then for her, for christmas present what is it? we'll do that tomorrow what is it? when you gonna do that? well we said we was going up to wisbech. no she ain't, cos she ain't coming down here for the and i told her that we would be nipping to town to so we can do it then when she ain't with me,the offer's only on till tomorrow. , pardon? who's the friend? who's what friend? from me, you and jonathan oh, she's samuels oh shall we get the er, i can't find the, can we nip into theydon bois, how we and b you told me that was westgate last time i will if he works into him. she wouldn't know which one wanted. well she would if you told her, wouldn't she? i'm sure she would. i don't actually know what they all look at have a look. well hey, if we go over and toys and get my, my thing tested i can have a look at them, see which one that's right, alright? not very far away is it? yeah we had this morning. no. i don't know how you do that? do what? eat erm fruit, and the bread and butter together, i can't bear that bear that. what's wrong with it? well i don't think it's very nice. wouldn't they at school mum, they and everybody goes, er what's that? what was it? well sure it weren't that what was it then? had something to say every day at school dinners. no,at home. i never cooked something every day the same. not every day, what you had at school. yeah, that day. oh you mean perhaps i'd cooked jacket potatoes and you had jacket potatoes at school? no, you know we had a and b oh yes yeah, well on a it was egg, bacon, and beans and chips and on b i can't remember but a, i thought, everybody goes er we've never had that before , er what's that? well what was it? it was that. yeah, but what is that? i've just told you , egg and bacon chips and beans and we we had it at home as well yeah, we had it at oh i see what you mean what did the other children have? i was the only one how come you got it on your own then? no, everybody had it at school it was the choice i think it it was something anyway that we had popular something like that. vegetarians there are people who are aren't they? bloody cholesterol oh they, they've never had them at school they have erm scrambled egg, they never have a proper egg you know why don't you? cos it's powdered. powdered it's powdered egg, they're not allowed to have, use raw eggs round school. aren't they really? no, i suppose cos why not? of salmonella ain't it? that's right. poached egg. do you? mm. you make erm egg on toast as well don't you? it's poached egg in the batter. egg in the batter? you mean erm cooked scotch egg? yeah, that's it. well you wouldn't like that surely, cos you don't like sausages. they're not sausages. of course it has, that's what it is, it's got it's got sausage round it, and it's got oh no, i don't i don't mean the eggs,the inside, cos, but on the outside, the inside tastes lovely. she erm, she's behind the till oh yeah when they today she's, you could see she was miles away, so i said, well i don't know what i said to ivan, i said something to her about sort of did you yeah so i said miles away, oh she said i'm ever so sorry i was miles away, i said yeah we've just said that, i said you never even heard us, so i said what you, you can't understand why you pay too much tax, she said no i know why i pay too much tax she said but more she said i used to be in business she said and i'm on basic rate of tax, so i said yeah i've had some of that, so she said what basic rate of tax, i said yeah where i've come so , it's a funny thing she said, i was saying to carol the other day, she said erm, she said what a difference them blokes you work with, so i said yeah, i said i'm always saying that about these so she said oh she said er well i hope you are different they they they can't wait to get into said it's like a sort of release valve what you mean? well i don't know, i suppose they sort of well, they the same time paint work and they go thundering down the corridor and go charging in there and, oh back at training on there you know come on, come on we've only got half an hour mummy, what's do you like best, them or these? them or these, erm erm brown one perhaps this one? yeah i mean what's your i don't know what they're called love, i don't know what they're called jonathan yeah, but what sort jonathan is a weird child at times cos they're ten p each and they're fifty p each well the fifty p ones look better i must admit no, nor would i you can get four of these six you can get five of these and one of these i'm watching the news in a little while you can get five of these what you put that somebody please yeah i'll do me ironing perhaps in the morning oh you know what i watched? no oh was on today's on quarter to six. oh on please jonathan oh no yes, you've got all tomorrow to watch that, i should save it wouldn't you dear? yeah jonathan what about tidying yourself up you just have out, yeah. well yeah, i clean the up with well she said she'd be back just after six. yeah, oh, she got and now i've got to go over the sierra i, i've got a sierra coming here. yeah, but she'll be back at six she said you know yeah. so we're not at john tonight then have we? no. what was i gonna say to you? here you are well yeah, and i, it's a bit short notice keep can keep cancel . it's not very fair is it? well i don't think so, did you put that tape in right, i bet you did tape oh it's oh, so what erm so what's ivan, happened about ivan's little boy then? or was it his little girl? no, boy, not didn't he have an asthma attack then? they sent him home from school or something, send him straight home from school and er, don't know i suppose take him to hospital today and then, i assume they've got to bring him home and he said oh no he said you haven't got to take me home he said cos the boy's got to be from school, come round tomorrow and pick you up did he actually have an asthma attack then? yeah, in hospital does the other one stopped having it now then asthma? the oldest one has the oldest one has yeah how i just what? what? charlie was quibbling about his wages coming through yeah well what's he dunno he's got a for forty five grand you know what they're like i don't know where he was , he's got a cheap one and a i told him the price when he ordered them yeah, yeah, well he must of thought that and he knows he's not like you doing for money, cos i shan't be very pleased that's right who's he working for now then, double glazing again? still don't know i reckon er when it is yeah, however did they employ him? he's had more jobs than i've had hot dinners they've seen through and they realize that all these wasting. well you, that van's always up there. yeah. think they go round travelling then like travelling salesman or something well i don't know they've got a place down at markets ain't they? i didn't think they were in a big way no idea, the er i who's being barred? yeah, well with the on the van as well, so he try and put a bit more you know,and they say well they do the same, they used to have a well what about the mr then? well yeah sort of erm do you believe yeah, a decision that we all erm just think what we generally use through the day. oh. so oh oh i didn't do you the yeah. the one thing i thought we ain't got, but, what? i said yeah, i said i'd up here tomorrow didn't i? erm,appar apparently oh percy what's he got now? he's sold that big and he's got this now, a cavalier, what they say they want to do surely ain't got any money the oldest, amazing that he was on the insurance, it had gone up, and the eighty seven per cent why? well all insurances have this year because they said the joy riding kids are flying around that's not fair though is it on people, you know, people through that , no, they that's what i was thinking about like that girl you know, typical, about that car what car? what girl? what car? about the er, orion oh i did you actually put down on that form? yeah. oh, but you didn't well the reason they caught him was cos they've got just flashed him through the computers as and find out what anyway,put it down they then turn round say oh well, you know whatever they're but susan was saying she can't see how one thing's got anything to do with the other, she didn't go joy riding susan was she? she was saying she wouldn't let it rest. she ain't got that's what i said, well we've got, that'll be in her it seems like she's well that's fair enough, cos that's customer's she was paying about thirty five pound every time and they go through, she perhaps think twice about doing it, she said oh well you know i've got that's the end of it so, yeah, that's fair enough i said a thing. oh yeah, that's right, yeah but odd really that, that bloke has got, she said if that was me i'd write to the chief constable about it well they wrote to the chief constable yeah, and what happened they lost the letter oh. that needn't of come to a head like that really. no. what's the time, twenty past two, why? i'm well it later anyway no. jonathan, jonathan, dad wants to watch the news in a minute please, so hurry up and change it over you'd think they'd save that you don't know, i wouldn't be surprised you will well that's marvellous isn't it? i said i think we're gonna have to start still doing what we said, erm, getting the money beforehand i think. you know it's ridiculous isn't it? well you don't bleeding know whether them other people turned up do you? did your mum take it to let you know? no. oh sarah should have her roof on by this week did you hear what i said? pardon? sarah should have her roof on this weekend. a roof? they're soon gonna put the roof on, yeah, soon, soon it i, i was there no, but as soon as they've got their thingy in the they should be off. yeah. they've got someone standby to do it or something. oh yeah. great, i said well that's the best thing really this time of year to get it yeah all covered in yeah. well i would have thought so anyway. oh you can't watch the video. why's that? cause martin took it back. oh never mind. oh! was it good? yeah. he gets brain damage nearly. oh i see . well that sounds good then. his neck gets broken. he said he gets brain damage i said well that sounds good then . nearly. cos can you just put the freezer stuff up? cos someone picks him up like that hasn't it turned cold? turns him over and they well you should have turned the heating on. oh no i'm not cold in here. i mean it's cold and he's up in the air, like this nanny mm. and he and he lands on the metal chair. i got a bad eye. ooh. yeah? well i had mrs in this morning she had a tooth out this morning and he broke it and he tried to get the rest out you know using a special instrument and he twisted it and a fragment of the tooth come off and hit me straight in the eye. ooh. so i've got i've got a little pinprick in me eye. what'll happen then so erm i'm just hoping i'm not gonna get an infection in it cos infection in it if i get blood in me eye. yeah. it's ever so sore. do you like profiteroles sue? who? profiteroles. yes. i got you know we usually have one of them black forest gateaux? i got that instead. oh yeah, that looks nice. mum'd like that. well i thought what have you got in your little side pots? oh i like if i'd have known you were going i'd have got you to get me the nut ones. i can't never get them from lynn. oh they had the hazelnut ones. yeah they're the ones i like. tut oh! do you like hazelnut? yeah, love it. oh i don't. oh! oh! i found this book in your drawer junie. what? i found this book in your drawer. what book? can't read it. yeah erm put your knee in there. it won't hurt. can i just put these there yeah. cor! it does . does it? yeah, it's quite hard. it is hard isn't it, there? i'll just put these in here. aah! pass me your mum's book. it hurts when you. pass your mum's book. oh she got that from gateway. is that where you've been? this lot cost eighty quid. and we we ain't got any drink in it. i know. it doesn't surprise me. only we got a that one you know if anybody wants some wine. that's all jonathan go and see what your dad's calling. what? go to him, don't shout. what? did you say something? i've still got your bottle of champagne in there susan. we can have it christmas time. erm i said how much did you say it was? oh no, it was ninety something not eighty something. when you said that i thought yeah but we had we had a we had what er who's in charge of a cup of coffee in there? eighty pound i thought susan had got the kettle on so i unpacked these. i have ju i don't know if it's got any water in, i have only just boiled it. just a second, that ain't been long boiled. see i have got some things for christmas. mm i know i've got noreen i have got noreen's stuff under that cupboard you know i have and i've got all loads of stuff in there haven't i? i suddenly and i just suddenly remembered i've left me windows open one of my bedroom windows open . do you my toy nanny? oh, i need them what darling? look and he can go raaa raaa we did our ordinary shopping as well in with this though. yeah. yeah. look, he can go that and he can go raaa raaa your money went in the bank at half past nine on friday. did it? my name is mr yeah cos a girl at work took it. i got a bloody letter bloody the next morning with unpaid thirty five quid on it. believe it or not sixteen hundred and fifty what did you say well i've already excuse me jonathan, let me just dunno. sixteen hundred and fifty quid. bloody well that no geoff that definitely went in. that cash oh no i don't i mean i don't say no but what i'm saying is that went in before twelve o'clock. yeah but what they're saying is it's gotta be in the night before so that when they come in that next morning oh well they don't know till half past nine. no, what they mean is they if it's put in on a thursday so it's there so when they, whatever they get in on a friday they can pay out then but if it's paid in on a friday then ah! what? they won't pay out on on a friday. so cor. can't i have this? load of rubbish. you got that's what we think. so they didn't pay sixteen fifty and that's costing us thirty five quid. quid yeah. they really the sooner we get away from that bloody bank the better. they're all the same though. no different. yeah but barclays, they changed from barclays to lloyds and they just no i mean the building society, they don't do that do they? well no, the building society won't run a business like that,. soon as they what you're doing they you down. hey nanny see this, this jumper i don't think that heater's turned on is it? no i didn't when he's mad, he grabs at it like that and whips it is that heater turned on? jonathan put it on. yeah. i can hear it. no, it's not. i didn't think it was on. i didn't turn it on there, it weren't turned on at all. i didn't sleep very well again last night, i dunno. i think it's the yeah. where do you get your cake from,superkey yeah. i see that in there the other day and i wondered were them cards alright for you? yeah, they were brilliant! i've got more cards. can you? the trouble is you can't smell it. yes i can. cat's pee . i can smell it. gonna get rid of it. that's up this corner behind me. that is innit? yeah well what you've gotta do is put a bowl of vinegar down there. i'll spray vinegar in there. yeah well put a bowl in there and let it stand and that and that'll erm go into the vinegar. you ought'a got some of that cat litter stuff. what for? you can get some spray that you put on your cat litter tray to deodorize it. oh. except the only problem is we haven't got a litter tray. no but i mean if mummy put a did you do that? yeah. get out the way. what? what jonathan! just go and sit in the room or do something while i just do this. they've all gotta go upstairs. do what? you can write my cards out for me if you like. i know you love the job. let's have a look what you've got. i don't know what they're like, i just excuse me! i just went for the price. and people don't care what it is geoff as long as they're getting something, do they? that's right. why don't you go and change and hang that suit up? please. go and do that. hang your stuff up eh? are they? he's so afraid he thought he was missing something look. jonathan. that's why he what? thought you send you out why you sent him out. he thought he was going to miss something. put them under the you know in the erm airing cupboard. and here you are, look and that can go in the toilet for mummy. there's a couple in here that's suitable for children though, look. look. yeah i know some of them are more suitable. look. yeah well, he can have the ones what are suitable for him. oh they're nice car , oh there's a nice one with on it. look oh yeah. i ain't very keen on cards with pheasants. no i can't say i . oh look! june. what? i've seen that card before. so've i. now these have gotta go in the freezer geoff. would you just do it then i'll make you a cup of coffee. oh june! geoff i'll do it. june ah! look at this geoff. look at that june. is that what you're having for your tea. oh yeah. june. yes. cos i'm having that french bread. there's some ham and tomato and lettuce in. leave it out. june. look. and that can go in the freezer, what?aah. and these? and these? and these and these, and these. that's an unusual card. erm have i got one set ou cos i was gonna leave one set out case you wanted yeah i got one set yup. yeah, that's alright. june. look. that's unusual innit? what's that mate? all those christmas puddings. oh yeah. think they're quite good. i only looked, i did take quickly a look at them but, you know i thought oh i ain't got i didn't really have time to mess about for long you know. they're a nice size card as well. yeah they're not bad for that. it says family selection so that's what it means well for adults and children. two packs is enough don't you? is it? what? er we're busy this morning. we had five er extra erm were over this morning. yeah? cos we were supposed to be on the rota. mr 's only doing it today so i ain't gotta go in tomorrow. oh. . and mrs gives out brandy though don't she? she don't pay me got another pack of peanuts so i have got a few that few, but you don't need any old bag do you? see when i don't go shopping i don't get all these i think i've read that one. see a pen floating about here somewhere? yeah there is a few about here somewhere. wait a minute i'll just get this done then i'll make you another . sitting here i'm thinking oh, someone's bound to ring while i'm sitting here and want to hire something. i know the ropes. didn't they? no. oh! was you disappointed? yeah, cos i was gonna say take the name and address and get you to ring it back . that don't take long to unpack it really, does it? i've got that much cupboard full now, i can't get it all in look. yeah it do, it full. where do you get that lipstick from over there? that's a nice colour. which one? that one over there. where? on tha on the dresser. i found it in the car . oh, it's a nice colour. i wiped it. it's a nice colour, i cos i thought well i remember what you said about cold sores. mm. oh they've got that paper in here. and those christmas cards. there's a good film on tonight sue. jaws. what's erm something up to jaws innit or something? mm. i'd like to see it. how how long does for june? what? he didn't actually say. oh. till, i suppose till the same time tomorrow i suppose. he didn't actually say. er christmas cards for erm send to madeleine . to madeleine for some yeah cos it don't get there you ought'a got mum to got your dishcloths and that cheap like. she'd get about s five for a pound. i don't know what they were. they're nice dishcloths oh. more in a bag what mum gets. she, and she got me five dishcloths and five dusters. well you and i ain't got the same paper. good. well i'm ever so pleased what i bought you today. oh. will i like it? no, well tell him. put it here look. jonathan . yeah. get your behind here please. he's just er tidying his clothes up. i hope he's putting them on hangers. sat here and i thought what i whatever am i gonna do? and i thought oh i know i'll have a look and see if i how long you been here? about five ten minutes most. only oh! i didn't get finished work till, well i didn't get finished work till about quarter to two. and then mr erm oh let me watch a queen video. he told me he didn't get in the football team. yeah. well mr said he hadn't been, sort of erm himself all week. i wondered if that was hurting a little bit. what, cos he didn't get in the football team? yeah could have been. well, did anybody else get in then who he who he didn't ? who got in then of his mates? all his mates got all his mates. oh dear. so i think probably that's what it was, but i don't know. well you see well luke's only reserve. don't think jonathan jonathan wouldn't have minded if he was in a reserve, you know? ain't he very good at football really then? well no not really sue. well they can't pick him just because they like him. no not cos they like him you know. you can't do that can you? well no er and he didn't seem that bothered anyway. right. what are you doing with them boxes? nothing. do you want them? yeah i'll have them for work. well you can take them if you like. mr you see. i'll have my tea then i'll shoot off to i to make one. do you want another one sue? yeah if you like. i'll have a cup of tea, i don't want coffee. mr give me coffee this morning. just got to get . where's me other box of cards? down here. let's put them in there then i can put them upstairs. you can write them for me when . oh . you're not you know you like writing them. oh. look at my bruise. that's now going. is that what that is? i thought you'd caught your tights or something. i've got, i've had it for but no, it's been round there and that's now going look. cor. only just. after a month. that was right down there. i'll show you something in a minute. i don't know whether this is a bruise or what but this morning my leg was burning. mm. that's in the same place as mine. cor. let's have a look. is that a bruise? oh it is . that was burning and the next minute that was black. on my desk there was a load of rubbish. go and tidy your rubbish up darling. there's a good boy. if you can just tidy that rubbish. there's an empty coke tin. there's an empty i didn't put the coke tin on there. you must have done. i didn't! you must have done. didn't! mum did. well, you had it. oh go on, just help her then. yeah well mum had to go you drunk it. upstairs quick, didn't i jonathan? is that what you wanted? so i got my i got my first christmas present. yeah, and stuff on there what belongs to you please. who's is that? yours. where? oh. oh no, that's the third. the packet . and your transformer. what ? just wash it . oh yeah we're prams and toys to have his transformer checked. what transformer? on that you know that racing track? the transformer's had it. i said and he's he's only played with it about six or seven times so we're gonna she told us to write to hornby's about it. weren't even a flicker out of it. she said there isn't a flicker. absolutely dead. well she said it's not jonathan's getting taller cos his tracksuit looks er short. i've just been yeah. watching the queen video june. have you? well mr had it. well he's videoed it cos that was on telly the other night weren't it? why don't why don't you get out the way? you're upsetting him june. well every time i go to do something susan i have to keep walking round him. why don't you play that side if he wants i want that. and i want can you just put that orangejuice somewhere for me please. it's on the floor mum. erm well i don't want everybody to start well i got it for christmas really. i don't want although it don't really matter i suppose. just put it on top . he's the one i really wanted. i said i said well now someone can buy him the other one for christmas. he's got one which one has he got then? i couldn't get ultimate warrior i probably well you can save something on here look. wrestling save the world wrestling premiums. what's that mean? i dunno. i was up before geoff this morning see. yeah you said. you are a clever boy aren't you? honky tonk man jonathan . don't you want hacksaw jim dougan mm duggan. d d dougan . no. dusty roads? what do you, what about jake the snake roberts? he's quick. he's on that film. was he? yeah. he's erm hasn't he got lovely teeth? four pounds thirty! good gracious. i bet he could have got it cheaper if he'd have waited. well he was the one who said they're two ninety nine and one ninety nine. yeah well only cos matthew told him they were. no, i don't think they're as cheap as that. you'll have to write that one down june and tell mum. in case what ?in case tam wants to get him something. i was saying big i think. bloody peerage for him. and he said that er he's had a do with erm joycie. sold her as what? well he's sold her a set of patio doors and told them they'd be sort of six to eight weeks delivery. meanwhile mo smashes out the hole in the corner of the house sort of thing where they're gonna go and they ain't there. he said and i told you he said six to eight weeks he said. why smash the hole in the corner of your house? cos she was on the phone crying that er she's got a hole in the side of her house sort of thing . well i should think she has. it's cold what in morris in their own home? i assume that's where she means. well yeah. yeah. well silly old fool . well that's like her. she wouldn't take no notice. oh and erm he reckon that he's, he's had a big do with erm pat?? brian. yeah. brian, no yeah brian. he said er we had a big hoo hah he said er i borrowed some money off him he said some time ago to do something with and i hadn't got the money he said and when i sold the plot of land he said i paid him back what i owed him cos borrow the money. he said now he's telling everybody he said that er i ain't ever paid him and i still owe him the money. i wouldn't be surprised if he does. so i said no let's face it geoff he ain't paid you. no. do you know he rang twice last twenty nine thousand he reckons he sold that plot for. geoff had to get up and down last night to pick him up. he had the bloody gall to i had to get out of bed. ring me today and say that's got diarrhoea, he'll keep the car today but he don't want it tomorrow can you find someone else who wants it. i was asleep in bed. i had to get up a i said that's the last time. i felt terrible last night. i said to june i can hardly see i've got that bad a headache. so i went to bed and i had to get up and get dressed and go and pick him up go and pick him up. and i was like this driving along the road. terrible. geoff said if i hadn't have wanted the money i wouldn't have bothered. well we ain't got paid anyway yet. he said i can't pay you till tuesday cos the money ain't come through for the work he said. no i didn't th i should imagine, i thought he said you didn't, i would imagine he gets paid at the end of the month. no. what he said was you don't get paid until the erm the actual sort of whatever it is he's sold has been installed. so if somebody says i'll have a set of double glazing doors or something until they've actually been installed he then gets paid. well that ain't a very good firm is it really? no. but then i suppose they don't get paid until the people but i mean what i couldn't understand was if he's selling all this stuff and where's mum's little black bag jonathan? making so much money i can't understand why what little black bag? he's that destitute that he my bag. i don't know. he more or less sort of said well i'll have to have a cheaper car. said well i don't do a cheaper car than that. and he's specially asked down to dover to do his karate thing or something. karate? well he was saying i do karate. is he still as big? well to tell you the truth i didn't really see him cos it was dark when he got in the car. cos he got ever so big didn't he? i've lost my handbag anybody. i don't want to leave it in the car. you went upstairs. oh well perhaps i left it up i'll take these up while i'm . i can't play with i'm using the he-man. look this his move gr nanny. granny!. what's that black one then? oh him? he ain't one of these he's just out of he-man. he's a i say he looks like a cat. he's meant to be a skunk. oh. well yeah, a skunk. suppose they're the same family. they're not. you didn't see that cat thing last night again did you. cor it was ever so oh we see the end of it. we seen the end of it. that was really good again last night. no i went, as i say i went to bed. did you see the little kittens at the end? yeah, they were lovely. oh it was look nanny. this is his move. the bearhug. erm what day you wa me and geoff'll take will take your erm take me what? your mac to morris. he's doing it again. oh lovely. course i'd like it, if i could june i would like it for friday. what ? cos i thought i'd lost my money didn't i? oh. i'd like erm i'd like it for friday if i could could you tell her cos i want it to erm go out on friday. i dunno how we could do it before friday, not unless erm perhaps she'll deliver it back to her mum's. see anyway, if if she could i would like it really. you would? yeah i would. well i mean i can always collect it thursday night. ooh that smell of like cat is awful in here. well i hate to tell you but this is that's the same smell that dorothy's house has. keep thinking that's on that cushion. that ain't. that's near that washing machine. i shall have to have the washing machine out. well i noticed it soon as i got to there. in the middle of the room. no i noticed it straight away. cor! that is definitely in that corner. i noticed it when mum told me. well i told you you'll have to get some of that stuff that you put in cat's litter trays to neutralize the smell. here you are. this is what i always no that won't do it june. that will do it. i know well put it in a bowl though. no, i go like that. yeah but that ain't any good. you've gotta get the stu the smell goes in to the liquid then you chuck the liquid away. that's how you do that. i stick a bit of that in. well that ain't doing anything. that's the whole point. yeah but it is! but she keeps doing it she done it again last night, didn't smell till yesterday. i told you to put some orange in there. they don't like the smell of orange, she wouldn't go in there. mm. why is the kettle still on? i'll put a can of that juice in. the kettle's not on. ain't you got a fresh orange?